Technically, it is trespassing if you remain on the premises after somebody with the authority to tell you to leave tells you to live. The analysis needs to start, not with the calling the police or the arrest, but with whether two Caucasian men, who made no purchases, would be asked to leave Starbucks.
2
Starbucks should change its business line to starbucks coffee and star-rest rooms, it will be a better business with a social motto!!
2
It is 100% on the police to have handled this situation better than they did. The barista who made the call could have made it for a number of reasons: it's entirely possible that a customer demanded the action. But even if the barista WAS making a decision derived from racial bias, it was on the police to have handled the situation better. Starbucks did not make the decision to arrest those men. The police did and they should be held accountable.
3
Forget the cushion of "sensitivity training." Please! Like we've ever allowed that kind of "leeway" for any people of color! Here's the sensitivity training that manager and any other employees everywhere should have should they ever treat anyone less than human, it's called "you're fired!"
5
What is opportune to change is that this instance of racism was visible. The sad part comes when a private conversation goes as follows: "The house has already been sold." "The job has already been filled." "We just rented the apartment." These are white lies. There is no reasonable way to vet these lies. Secret white lies will continue to be racist.
10
Well, I am thinking perhaps I will no longer patronize a Starbucks. Which makes me sad. Their coffee, a medium, not grande, plain with some half and half is good. It breaks up the monotonous drive up I-87, you know how the mileage signs for Albany, 82 miles and then the next one says Albany 104 miles and so on.
Saying this as a naturalized citizen: police in the United States seem to be trained to use the highest level of technically justifiable force (especially when dealing with anyone who looks "different"). They seem to have been given a blank check by society, together with lots of subservience and adulation.
There are several comments that the men were technically "trespassing" and so an arrest was the only option. It was not. After speaking to the manager, they could have cautioned her that her call was a false alarm.
They are servants of society, and we need to have better rules and training around this.
9
But it already has happened at another Starbucks that was also captured in video. One half day of training to effect a reduction in bias is a failed project that is no more than a publicity stunt. I know this because I have 20 of direct experience in designing bias reduction trainings and facilitating bias reduction discourse and experiences that are focused on achieving good and sustainable outcomes for participants.
Starbucks is wasting money and time as the leadership demonstrates an inadequate understanding the nature of bias and the most effective tools to instill receptive change in behavior.
It is shame that this will be another lost opportunity to create real sustainable change because one more company is not committed to changes in staff attitudes towards people of color and specifically Black people. Instead Starbucks is committed to saving a thinning reputation regarding equitable and just customer service.
2
So i walk into a restaurant, sit down at a table in the restaurant and refuse to order anything when asked by the store clerk to do so. Im told that tables are for paying customers only but i still refuse to order something. Then i proceed to use the bathroom. Then Im told that the restrooms are for paying customers only, but i still refuse to order anything. Then Im told by the store clerk that I either have to order something or leave. I refuse to order anything and I refuse to leave. So the store clerk calls the police who arrive and re state the business’s written policy that tables and restrooms are for paying customers only and if I dont order something, I will have to leave. I refuse the police order to leave so I am arrested.
Such is life in a free society which recognizes private property and laws
10
For each and every commenter who blamed these two black men for "getting themselves arrested"- You. Are. The. Problem. You are also lying to yourselves and to everyone having to read your foolishness. Some of you included verbatim statements that were never uttered by the men or the police officers. Why? Just to get your comment published in the NYT? Two minutes then a call to the police? The problem (as I see it): You cannot feel any moral outrage because you cannot comprehend this ever happening to you- therefore it must be something wrong- these two men did. My question to you is: "Does any thing move you?" What would it take for you to actually care about injustice toward another unlike yourself? More importantly- how do you live with yourselves?
8
Since you asked, yes, among other things, I am moved and upset about the murders of two law enforcement officers in FL yesterday. I am much more upset about that than I am about the two non customers removed from a private company's property. And I have a right to care about what I care about. I am not obligated to care about what you think I should care about, or to think what you think I should.
The French, especially those who sit along the cafes on Avenue de Champs Elysees while doing the same like those who patronize Starbucks, must be scratching their heads in utter dismay after having read about or seen this current Starbucks' racist brouhaha.
6
How many articles dragging this out are we going to be subject to? A real conversation about race in America would be to compare how Starbuck's founder Howard Schultz was so sensitive to black racism and compare it to the open contempt blacks show to other historically oppressed groups, openly and with no consequences. This incident one of many is examples, and one that got far less coverage or condemnation that the Starbucks incident: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-politics/dc-lawmaker-who-said-je...
2
The gatekeeper, the manager, human nature.......it's that simple
I have been in many Starbucks, some daily and yes, I am white and never have had an issue. People live in Starbucks, Panera, are encouraged to do so.
Unless you are not white, then I guess you are not welcome
Our POTUS role model is simply not up to the task of leading us forward i guess
1
Actually, with most urban fast food restaurants, you're not welcome unless you buy something. Otherwise, the restaurant becomes a hangout for people, with nothing to do all day, who tie up tables with no income for the restaurant. No restaurant can afford to have its tables tied up by nonpaying noncustomers, particularly during the lunch rush period.
6
The more I ponder this, this angrier I get. Black people are incarcerated at a ten times the rate of white people. Unarmed black people are routinely shot and killed by police who are only rarely held accountable for their unjustified and unjust homicides. But two provocateurs get tossed out of a Starbucks and we go apoplectic over man's inhumanity to man? That's enough to make me ashamed to be white.
3
They skipped the part where they refused to leave when the cops told them to; many of these recent problems involved black men resisting arrest or trying to flee police.
5
We certainly hope that this situation doesn't happen again. People of colour should be able to hang out at businesses and use their bathrooms without buying anything.
3
Who ever said anyone has that right? Is a private business responsible for creating public spaces? No. That has never been the deal — for any race. A shop is not a municipal park or library.
5
No restaurant can afford to let people just hang out there and use the tables, and the wi-fi, and other facilities unless that they're actually paying something. Restaurants are private businesses and are not hang outs for all and sundry.
Starbucks does. That's part of their business model. The manager violated company policy.
2
These young men should be drinking many free Lattes into the distant future. Starbucks disrupted their business meeting; the city cops falsely arrested them and the Chief of Police stupidly supported the cops before he new all the facts. Yep, the city of brotherly love...unless your a brother sitting with intent. Glad to read that the city and Starbucks are taking steps to make sure that this disgrace doesn't happen again.
800 comments and not one that I have read picked up on something I never thought about myself, I’m just as guilty. In the interview with these two 23 year old men—they said they were frightened that they would be killed by the Philadelphia police for the crime of being black and using a restroom at a coffee house. We just don’t want to admit that this is our national shame. I
I never thought that the two men were in any danger, because I am a white man. But I know the families of these two young men have warned them about the dangers of being black in America. In California. In North Carolina. In Chicago, New York, DC, Dallas, Birmingham, Denver, Seattle. Not that there is too much a black American can do about it.
In other countries, it is usually done under cover of the night.
That’s when you hear the screams from Center 42
Loud enough to bust your brains out
The opposition’s tongue is cut in two
Keep off the streets cause your in danger
One hundred thousand disparos
Lost in the jails of South America
We pretend that the bad stuff doesn’t happen here. If I am not mistaken, this is the first interview the two young men have given. They were most likely afraid to speak up and were undoubtedly counseled against giving the interview. It really didn’t matter, as it doesn’t seem like anyone read their words.
8
The officers might not have know that Starbucks is commonly used as a meeting place, yeah right, maybe if they were 4 year olds dressed as officers for Halloween.
3
Having lived in the US Virgin Islands which are predominantly black I often found myself to be the only white person in the room. I never felt uncomfortable or threatened. I knew that the other people in the room wished me no ill will. Judging by the comments here a black person in the USA can't feel the same way when they're the only black person surrounded by white Americans. That is still a huge problem and is sickening.
8
All possible comments with one exception have already been published. This, the exception, is about the apparent treatment of "race" and "racism" as synonyms by comment writers and even Times columnists, and here, in the interview, by the two men:
"The men said on 'Good Morning America' that they hoped the incident would spur a dialogue about RACE."
Did they really want a dialogue about the concept of "race", the concept invented by racists and preserved by the US Census Bureau? I doubt it. I assume they wanted to know why police put them in handcuffs without even explaining while very likely someone with a different skin color, not "race", would at worst have been asked to explain the nature of the business transaction to be carried out and, if the place was not crowded, been told, OK 15 minutes if you will be seated but then you will have to leave, that is our policy.
Is there even one reader sufficiently interested in the American English language who will explain to me why "race" and "racism" are used as synonyms? Rima Regas, Verified, confirmed that they are used as synonyms here in comment land but not why.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Dual citizen US SE
2
Sounds like Black Lives Matter has taken a page from James O’Keefe’s playbook.
Why did the two men refuse to order? It’s a simple enough, and logical enough, thing to do. Why didn’t they explain that they were waiting for a third person and would order then? Why was a video made of the entire incident? I can see someone whipping out their smartphone when police arrive, but videoing the entire interface with the employee? I don’t think so...
Was this staged? If it was, it’s a really stupid point to make. Businesses open their doors to exchange services for money. It’s courteous and rational to play by those simple rules. It’s not Starbucks’ responsibility to provide public meeting space and public toilrts. It’s up to municipalities to make themselves livable and user-friendly.
8
Starbucks routinely makes their restaurants public meeting places as part of their business model. Have you ever been to one?
2
They should answer the questions:
1. If you were informed Starbucks requires purchasing something to stay and use the restroom, why didn't you or your friend say, "Ok", and buy a $2 coffee?
2. If you were asked to leave by the manager several times, why did you refuse?
3. If anyone else, say a homeless person, or different race, behaved as you and your friend, would you agree they were right to refuse to buy and leave?
4. Why do you think Starbucks should allow anyone to come and sit in their cafes without paying and be entitled to stay as long as they want and use the restroom?
12
So where is the closest public restroom to this particular Starbucks in Philidelphia?
1
The Police Dept's assertion that their cops don't realize Starbucks is used as a meeting place for business, gig workers who take up residence for several hours (or all day), and for friends' gatherings, is idiotic. What planet and century are they from? Of all the excuses, that is the dumbest.
3
Would love to hear the (former) store manager, in some calm and quiet setting when this dies down, give her side. Not a press conference, not an explanation from a lawyer. What was she thinking when these two men first came onto her personal radar? How did she process those two minutes and decide to do what she did.
Although, if she's really fortunate, her identity will stay hidden from the mob and she puts herself into some ersatz version of the Federal Witness Protection Program, changes her name, and tries to restart her life and career maybe outside the hospitality industry.
4
Norm, Amen.
Seems to me this boils down to a dispute between the SB staffer and the two men. So far, the media has given us their side, but not hers. Perhaps she was motivated by racism. Perhaps not.
Why does the media provide readers no opportunity to figure this out?
4
Because she almost certainly does not want her identity revealed. She would be crucified. She made a bad mistake. She's gone. Let her live her life. Hopefully, she learned something.
Just be polite and buy something...After all you are using their facilities, water, wifi, tables chairs tables, electricity,, restroom....You would have less problems in life if you were't so cheap trying to get something for nothing...Billy Holiday said "GOT BLESS THE CHILD WHO GOT HIS OWN!
7
Dear everybody that says they should have bought something: you are a racist. I'm sure you will protest that there is no way you're racist, but you are and you are a big part of what is wrong with this country.
6
Correct!
2
I am one of those commenters, and I am not a racist. I am a business person, and this incident is not a Selma Alabama lunch counter replay. I wonder what MLK would say if this brouhaha is what the Civil Rights Movement has ended up being: a defense of people showing up at a commercial establishment and not ordering anything. Rosa Parks paid for her ticket on that bus. I think she and MLK would both be disgusted by the bizarre entitled attitude of these two men.
The only way this incident is racist is if white people can get away with not ordering anything in a café. They can’t.
2
@joymars: "....by the bizarre entitled attitude of these two men"
Could you please enlighten us what the "bizarre entitled attitude of these two men" was? That, they could drink coffee without paying, free? Is that what you mean? I didn't get that from the article. And, thanks for being not a racist and educating us on MLK and Rosa Parks!
3
The police simply should have asked the men about the situation instead of just asking them to leave without giving them an opportunity for an explanation. And not even read them their rights?! This was bad police work.
5
Police exists to make society uneventful, that is what I believe must be their duty. But I know they sometimes do the opposite to promote their agendas or their employer's. (In the case of my country they arrest people who are against the government for minor infractions like trespassing.) But in this case I cannot understand what the police's motivation is. Did they just want to show they were not lazy by making an event? Or their racism or emotion rising from race is just so strong that they are just carried away.
1
Waiting to meet people in Starbucks is a common everyday occurrence that shouldn't lift an eyebrow. I have never ever been questioned about not ordering anything, or been declined the use of the washroom, while seated waiting for the other party to turn up. I doubt this is an exceptional data point, and speaks volumes for the true motivation of what happened in that particular location. It is good that both company management and the police have recognized this for what it was and are doing things to head-off repeat performances; but really and truly mind-bending that such issues should still be live - and even gaining traction - in the 21st century. Time to stop and think about the glacial pace of progress toward civilized society.
In India, in many metropolitan cities, when persons of doubtful looks and financial stature enter a high class shop or other commercial locations or posh hotels, they will be held by the collar and simply pushed out by the security guards. Moreover they would addressed in the pejorative part of the native feudal languages, such as Thoo, Nee, eda etc.
There is no question of them demanding their rights. It is a foregone conclusion that they have no rights. If they approach the police, which they naturally cannot, they will be beaten to a pulp.
Nations like India are run non-English persons.
A friend of mine still claims we are in a post racial country which I believe his years in the Marines instilled in him. Having all colors in his platoons and fire squads, needing to rely on all colors to stay alive, colored his thoughts on color in the civilian world. Our military was an educational melting pot for draftees for generations as were the jobs corps of the 1930's. A new national service requirement may be a good move to increase all citizens exposure and understanding of "the other" in our nation.
2
I worked for a while at a branch store of a very well known computer company in the Boston area, an upscale community. The atmosphere there was a very open one and we were encouraged to allow those customers who were browsing to do so, regardless of their appearance, whether style of dress or racial heritage. But quite often, if two or three African American young adults entered, a Manager would come over and soto voce tell me to "keep an eye on" those kids. This never happened if the youngsters were white.
6
Welcome to America; where we profess equality, dignity, respect, equal treatment under the rule of law but forget to add the footnote: *unless you are a minority.
3
These guys weren't shot, they weren't beaten, they were escorted out of a coffee shop for God's sake, nothing more. If that is the extent of racial discrimination in this country we don't have much t worry about but I guess everybody likes their 15 minutes of fame.
7
in handcuffs.
Starbucks policy is not too require the consumption of drinks. if the two gentlemen otherwise did not disturb the peace there is no reason for the police to use this approach.
3
Steve W - after committing the nonexistent crime of being in a coffee shop for TWO minutes, they were HANDCUFFED by FIVE police officers and kept in JAIL until 1am. Is that your idea of an easy breezy day??
7
So not beating them up while attesting them for dubious reasons that would never be used if they were white makes it OK?
Your attitude is the problem and it goes far deeper than this,single incident.
7
That Philadelphia Police Commissioner Ross thinks his job is to be enforcing corporate policies instead of public law is the other half of the problem.
At least Starbucks is doing due diligence to train every employee on how to be decent after this incident,
3
I don't know what the manager was thinking. It pays to give a guy a break. Goodwill is just common sense, not an accounting line. They are a pair of presentable young guys, it seems really weird. Maybe the cops were getting free coffee, anyway.
Most people have probably noticed that stupid people pop up in management positions sometimes, still, as a Starbucks shareholder, this is disappointing. I've met our realtor multiple times at Starbucks and used their toilets at many locations without buying anything or thinking about it. The only time a manager stopped me was when I tried to take a picture of the chalkboard menu at a Starbucks in Taiwan (no photos please).
I'm white. Still, when I was younger, I have had shotguns pulled on me when I went to ask directions or I wanted to use a public road some nut had chained off, and have been kicked out of stores and restaurants by weird managers (once at gunpoint) for reasons I never knew. The USA is sick. It needs more social and mental health soldiers and less cops. Racism is crazy, but it's just a subset of the Big Problem.
2
Rosa Park did something that was against the law by sitting in whites section, she refused to move to the back after she was told .... everything she did was against the law. Did she should have? It was the Law, welcome to racism .... I let you judge.
When people comment that they should have complied are actually unknowingly inflicted with hidden racism.
I have been in Starbucks, I dont even remember the count, many times I just sat there and left after 5 minutes or even after 1 hour. No one ever asked me to leave. I recall a homeless woman sitting in the coffee shop who just lost her job and on fourth occasion I had the courage to ask her if she was okay. As she told me that that she liked sitting in Starbucks coffee shop because she said it felt safe and bathroom was clean. I gave her the bus ticket to go home. Maybe, as I had to muster up the courage to talk to this lady maybe people need to muster up the courage to think differently.
4
While I have been following this news since it broke, I only now realized that they were refused the use of the bathroom 2 mins after they arrived, and the manager approached them right away and asked that they purchase something - clearly an overzealous employee at a minimum, maybe even a racist. She is clearly at fault, and deserved to be terminated (from what I understand). The cops were called immediately. They had come for the meeting 10 mins early, and this mayhem occurred in that time! This is really heartbreaking, and my heart goes out for the two gentlemen, but also to the larger African American community that must be so traumatized by this injustice.
7
The Dilemma: Are public restrooms a civic responsibility that citizens should provide to the general population, OR should restrooms be provided only at retail establishments in exchange for a mandatory purchase?
The Answer: People with young children or people who are getting up there in age should just stay home?
Kudos to Healdsburg, Ca and Mendocino, Ca for providing safe, clean public restrooms, no purchase necessary.
What the US needs is an App that
shows the location of safe, clean
public restrooms, and by omission,
the towns to avoid.
3
I do not believe it is Starbucks corporate intention to treat black people differently. Seattle Washington based Starbucks could not be more progressive as a private business. It is the store manger and the cops that caused this in this case. It is also the lack of training of Starbucks employees (and lack of training of proper policing for the policemen) that caused this. But then again, no amount of well intentioned training could guarantee people with racial bias, ignorance or worse bad intentions would not act badly.
It is more of a societal problem. Now we know why Trump could win because any news about the existence of racism to some was and will always be fake news.
3
I’m not hearing the whole story. I’m not hearing the Starbucks’ manager’s experience with other patrons in the past. I’m not hearing about the attitudes that transpired between the two men and the workers at that Starbucks. I’m not hearing what kind of neighborhood that store is in.
What I do hear is that the cops were called really fast. And the cops did not behave legally. I do know that a store has the right to institute its own rules regarding the use of its premises. The two guys could have been asked to leave — no arrests necessary.
Stores legitimately have their own rules all over the world. I live in the EU. Café culture here is what Starbucks endeavors to imitate. You order an espresso here and you can have that table for the rest of the morning. But in this very patron-centric culture you don’t get to sit at a table without ordering something. No one would dare ever attempt such RUDE manners in the EU. They wouldn’t even think of doing it.
So if Starbucks is being raked over the coals for an unfortunately deployed sane policy, it is caught in the usual problem U.S. always has when it tries to copy European culture: it always gets it wrong in some way. Anyway, I have never felt I could hang out at a Starbucks the way I can in Europe — WITH ordering a café in both places. I don’t know why anyone thinks Starbuck’s is a real invitation. Have your drink, dawdle a bit, use the loo if you have to, and leave. That’s the Amurican way. And those two guys knew it.
7
It's been a 15-year understanding of mine that part of paying 5 dollars for a cup of coffee is the right to find my place to sit down, pull out the laptop, get situated, wait for whoever else I'm expecting, then get in line. Not once has an employee or manager ever approached me or give me a dirty look or otherwise questioned why I didn't get in line as soon as I walked in the store. This practice of mine has been true in Starbucks stores all over the USA, from Washington DC to California and all points in between - even airport Starbucks - there's never been a problem with this practice. And yes, my skin color is melanin-challenged, i.e. the color of a slice of pork cooked rare - i.e. "white."
2
I dislike it when people who haven't ordered grab a table unless the store is empty. What about all the people on line who have been patiently waiting?
These men were mistreated, most likely because of their race. It’s hard to prove that because everyone knows that Starbucks’ rules on buying drinks, having meetings, and staying to do work long after your cup is empty, are all vague and inconsistently enforced.
I would submit that this example shows how clear and explicit rules can help to protect the rights of everyone involved, in a way that vague social expectations cannot.
2
The comments trying to make excuses for the police and Starbucks and blame the men for what happened to them are infuriating. Maybe Starbucks is different in Canada, but when I go there, I often see people who are sitting around working on their computers. I assume that most have bought something at some point, but this is not obvious and often isn't true hours later. I often wait for friends to order - everyone does. And using the bathroom has never been a problem, whether I have bought anything or not. As for defiance, I have argued with police officers myself - I am not white, but I am of Asian background and I suspect that I am not a minority that is so easily pigeon-holed as a "problem". There is no excuse for what these men went through.
5
Starbuck's environment is to blame. Whenever I went into a Starbucks on my own it was to use the rest room or to get warm during the winter and perhaps sit down - of course I would order a beverage. But here is the rub about Starbucks: it forster's an environment that encourages people to sit all day nursing an empty cup of coffee and there is rarely an available seat because of it. Most folks do meet others for business such as the men in this story and I never seen folks challenged to buy something etc. Their story is plausible and the police seemed just concerned with their removal. Starbuck encourages it's patrons to lounge about so why not these 2 men - singling them out? Also these two men, why didn't one of them by a beverage - are they moochers? I think all 3 parties were at fault.
1
Let’s focus on the issue. Bias. The police would not have been called if two white women or men wanted to use the restroom, regardless of not ordering a drink. It’s simple and it is wrong.
8
For those who think these men brought the arrest upon themselves because they should have "just left" when asked by police, would YOU just leave if you went to Starbucks expecting to conduct business and are accused of trespassing for not buying a coffee within two minutes? Would YOU swallow the indignant feeling that arises when being accused of wrongdoing when you've done nothing wrong, and just "comply"? Until you can answer yes, then you are holding a double standard. In my mind, this is no different from being told to "just comply" with having to sit at the back of the bus.
10
I have business meetings in Starbucks all the time. Frequently, I don't order anything while waiting to meet someone. Never have I been asked to buy something. If a Starbucks staff member had called the police on me, I would have refuse to buy anything because bringing in the law about buying a cup of coffee is excessive. Had I been handcuffed, I'd sue.
Had these two not been black, none of this would have happened.
10
I have on occasion popped into a Starbucks to use the restroom without making a purchase, and thereafter departed immediately. I am a regular (gold) customer and they make plenty of revenue from me. But I would never think to have a meeting, or otherwise even sit down, without buying something. That is just wrong. Was it an overreaction - absolutely. Would it have happened to white men - probably not. But seriously, folks. Starbucks isn't the public library, it is a business. Taking a seat, breathing the air, and using the wi-fi are the perks of being a paying customer.
3
I spoke to a security guard at a Midtown Manhattan Starbucks on Thursday evening (4/19). He said he and other security personnel are not Starbucks employees but contracted by another company. Thus, security would NOT be among the employees receiving anti-bias training on May 29. But aren't security personnel potentially key players in avoiding controversial interactions with customers? Shouldn't Starbucks arrange anti-bias training for contracted security in their stores?
3
I do think it would have been sensible to order a drink, even if it was a bottle of water. I live in Europe where it is common for businesses not to allow the general public to use the toilet facilities unless they buy something.
13
Everyone knows people have meetings at Starbucks! Give me a break.
20
Thank you! Like I said, people saying otherwise either haven’t been to a Starbucks or are simply as prejudiced as the night is black.
This isn’t a case about courtesy, supporting businesses, or whatever else biased/ignorant/racist people want to cloak the issue with.
This story should spur a follow-up story at all the news organization's that covered the first story. Does Starbucks have a national race bias? One of the most socially responsible companies is shuttering its doors for two days for training. Is it needed?
If so, similar directives should be sent to all restaurant chains starting with McDonald's. The McDonald's in my neighborhood is strict. No cheeseburger equals no bathroom and hanging around at one of their tables.
Friday's?
Buffalo Wild Wings?
Ruth's Chris?
Should Starbuck's create a no-loitering national policy for its stores?
Should Starbucks create a national policy where any person on the street is welcome to come in regardless if anything is purchased?
If I own a private coffee shop am I expected to let non-customers come in, spend time and not buy anything? As a small shop owner, is it somehow different for me.?
This story defies, or at least it does for me, easy answers. I develop more questions as the story continues to get major coverage, but I feel confident in saying this, closing 8,000 stores was a knee-jerk reaction by Starbucks.
9
Can't even say nice try, Ralph B.
"Spend time?"
They were in Starbucks for TWO MINUTES before the manager called the police.
6
I'd like your honest opinion because this is where I think it gets thorniest. Does this event warrant the closing of 8,000 stores? Does Starbucks have a nationwide problem? Or does it matter?
1
Ralph, your arguments make ZERO SENSE.
Being socially responsible does not equate to being unbiased, ethical or non-prejudiced.
McDonalds operates on a fully franchised model. Starbucks does not. Meaning that owners of McDonalds are more like independent business owners who are free to set their own store polities. Starbucks has its own policies which all stores must adhere to.
What does this mean? It means that:
1) all stores operate under the same rules
2) it means that since Starbucks’ policy does not demand that people waiting/meeting there buy a coffee, people should not be arrested while waiting for a meeting, holding a meeting, reading a book, or browsing the internet
3). It means that other businesses are free to construct and implement their own policies. If you want people to be able to use your restrooms without buying anything? Feel free to do so. If you want to insist that restrooms are for customers only? Fell free to do so.
This isn’t a case about courtesy, supporting businesses, or whatever else biased/ignorant/racist people want to cloak the issue with.
At best it is about a hysterical store manager who needs to be re-trained, a police force that lacks the ability to diffuse situations without resorting to force/show of power, and a company with confusing marketing/policy.
At its worst, it is about how black/brown people are treated in America as exemplified by this particular Starbucks situation.
2
I can't believe how many people commenting here seem to think that it's okay for cafes to require ordering before using the restroom. I will never knowingly patronize such an establishment. I'm not about to carry my purchase into a filthy restroom or just leave it sitting on a table unattended.
And I can't even comprehend the possibility of the police being called because I waited a few minutes for another member of my party before ordering. For me, the situation these two men found themselves facing is beyond belief. I'll have to remember this story the next time I think racism is overblown and have more sympathy for black people.
34
So private businesses don't have a right to their own policies?
2
By “unattended”do you mean next to your friend whose also there for the same meeting? Or maybe order with the cashier and use the bathroom while waiting for the order to be completed? I do that all the time.
me No, private businesses don't have a right to selectively enforce policy based on skin color. See discrimination.
Better comprehension needed.
The coffee at Starbucks is terrible anyway.
17
Starbucks may have displaced lots of mom & pop coffee shops, but on the plus side they provide a great service, hire terrific people, and serve excellent coffee and snacks. I’ve ordered their coffee at many locations and never received a bad cup.
Thousands of great people at thousands of clean orderly stores have been doing a good job for a long time. And then a single store manager makes a racist judgement and all of a sudden Starbucks is branded a horrible insensitive racist business?
NO! I don’t think so. That’s just not fair.
Had the police been called for two white guys, the incident would have gone unnoticed.
8,000 Starbucks stores are going to be closed for a day while every employee goes through race relations training. If this was a widespread persistent problem at Starbucks, that would make sense, BUT NOTHING HAS BEEN WRITTEN INDICATING THAT IS THE CASE!
Black, brown, yellow, or white - it shouldn’t matter. If you want to be treated with respect, be respectful. Let THE GOLDEN RULE PREVAIL.
Stereotyping is at the root of prejudice. To conclude all black men are thugs because you were mugged by one is WRONG! Just as wrong as concluding all of Starbucks is a racist enterprise because a single manager demonstrated racist behavior.
Let’s all stop, think, and reflect upon what has just happened at the Starbucks in Philadelphia. There is still plenty of nasty racism across America, but very little of it is evident at Starbucks. Let’s pick our battles wisely.
15
But the police weren’t called for two whites guys were they? They were called for two black guys. Some people will never see racism unless the racist is wearing a klan hat.
2
I'd like to see the numbers on all the "white" people who were urged to leave a Starbucks if they weren't placing an order. Starbucks is not a public meeting place for no charge. Public libraries, maybe. No one will ever know whether this would have happened if one of these guys had just bought a cup of coffee. No doubt, the fact that these men are black, exacerbated the issue, and it shouldn't have. But, also no doubt, that who knows what the rules are. Is there a sign posted indicating that restrooms are for patrons only. Or one saying that if a person occupies a table, they must order something. Some people will sit in these places for hours with one cup of coffee.
My father always insisted that you never used a restroom, anywhere, not even at a gas station, without making a purchase, if only a pack of gum. Of course that was decades ago.
7
JaneR,
TWO MINUTES.
2
Space is really at a premium in New York Starbucks - and indeed in every big city. Coffee shops are having a problem with too many people buying a drink and staying all day to work just to get out of their apartments or offices.
The rules and practices must be the same for all people and all gender preferences, and should be clearly spelled out. Some coffee shops restrict restrooms to purchasers because there are so many homeless people these days who tend to really mess up the restrooms. The confusion, conflicting treatments, racial prejudice, and general level of anger and lack of ability to disarm an excalating situation reflects the deep divisions in our "body politic." America is in deep trouble and our political strucures, elected represenatives, police, and people in general are failing to observe the most basic rules of civility and common decency. Social media, Russian bots, and Fox and other media hacks inflame tensions and violence with half truths or outright lies.
This is the worst time in America since the Civil War - including our world wars.
11
Starbucks holds itself out as a community-minded place. It's good for business, after all. And everyone sees countless people occupying space, working their computer or phone, or whatever, while nursing a coffee for hours.
All the high-minded "just obey the rules" commentary here is missing the point that this was clearly a biased attitude and selective rule-enforcement playing out. We haven't heard anything about the employee, and whether this behavior was consistent with a pattern. That will be interesting to hear about, eventually.
8
This is very unfair to Starbucks. They are always impeccably courteous to customers, black or white. I have never witnessed any customer being asked to leave. Blacks should pick more authentic incidences of discrimination. In this case, a misguided employee made a mistake and was severely punished. End of story.
6
No, they are not ALWAYS impeccably courteous, as this incident reveals. But they are responding well, which is a good sign of a good company. BUT it does not mean we sweep this incident under the rug. The “black people” by no means chose this incident!? Strange to assume they chose to be publicly humiliated. The manager chose to be inappropriate and this great company, as you said, acknowledged the error in the managers actions. They know it WAS NOT impeccable, not even close.
14
They should have met at an airport Starbucks. You can stand in line for an hour, then have to run for your plane before you get served.
9
Well, they didn’t. They picked this particular Starbucks.
I have been visiting Starbucks regularly since its inception and have never witnessed any incidence of their employees say a word to customers, blacks or white, who sit for hours whether they ordered anything or not. Starbucks should be commended not vilified.
7
I agree with you (re: on the average Starbucks stores are welcoming to EVERYONE) but I also know that one bad apple spoils the entire bunch.
Keep in mind that the reaction isn’t entirely about Starbucks - it’s about how the situation was handled by the responding officers. Things could have escalated and (black) lives lost
4
This article is offensive. I am white and used to meet with two friends every week at a Starbucks. If one or two of use arrived early, we would always order immediately knowing that no restaurants want people taking up a table just to loiter. I have asked to use restrooms in restaurants and have been asked if I am a customer. The way the NYT and other biased media frame this story is as if it HAS to be an example of oppression and racism. If that's the case, how do you explain all of the white people, in the same situation, who feel compelled to order something so they are not taking up a table with no product? I always knew that this is just what you do since a restaurant or coffee shop is a business and they are in business to have people sit around at their tables without a purchase. This is designed to throw more gasoline on the fire. It the perfect way to characterize something that it wasn't just to continue a narrative that ignores the standard behavior in restaurants and coffee shops. Hope you're all patting yourselves on the back. Other comments reflect my position, so I don't stand alone.
18
I disagree. My Starbucks experience is much different than yours, and many of us politely wait for our friends or clients before we order! To each his own, normally Starbucks is fine with either order of events, but this case stood out! Starbucks agrees it was handled poorly. End of story.
15
Be angry also at your fellow white folks who actually witnessed event, recorded it, spoke up against the handling of the situation, and helped bring attention to it.
I guess they are also biased.
1
Says the guy patting himself on the back for always ordering when he should've learned by now that thousands of people use Starbucks without being asked to leave for not ordering.
1
I may have missed it, but I would really like to hear the Starbuck's employee tell her story. What was she thinking? Until then it's hard to fully understand why this episode ever happened.
11
I am SO upset by many of the comments here - the ignorance about the law, the excuses made about the police, all of it. First of all no, the police do not get to put you in handcuffs when you broke no laws - full stop. Second of all the explicit - now - policy of Starbucks is that you do not have to order something to be in the store. Full stop. But again - these men were there for a total of 2 minutes. TWO MINUTES. And let's even leave racism aside - because if this had happened to white customers it STILL would have been a violation of law - it still would be something the customer should take to court.
We know it was racism - by the cops and the manager - but even beyond that it was unlawful and a violation of the constitution - we HAVE a constitution - which gives us RIGHTS - to infringe on those rights either as a police officer or a business owner/manager - is a violation of law - full stop.
34
The police are to protect the public from probable harm. I was at an optometrist's office, asking why the optometrist wouldn't try again to get my prescription so that it worked, and he called 911. I was sitting calmly. I was shocked, but you better believe that I took my white self out of that office. I waited on the street, off the property, for the police to arrive. He told me it was good that I had, otherwise he would have arrested me, solely on the basis of the proprietor calling 911, and reporting that "there is a woman who refuses to leave." I hadn't been asked to leave, nor was that indicated by body language, etc. (It was nightmarish). Seems to me that there's a question of just how far a police officer anywhere should be able to go when there is no threat. Businesses might better consider hiring their own security guards. (By the way - nothing happened to me, except a cardiac problem due to the shock, and subsequently, the business closed).
7
When the police tells you to leave you leave. They were in handcuffs because they didn’t obey the law.
They could have reported the police later and also notifies the management of Starbucks after they left
Police was right to cuff them
1
Two 23-year-old men have amassed the capital for a real estate deal? Very impressive.
9
But they didn’t have the business sense to buy a coffee while waiting, like all business-minded people would automatically feel was the fair thing to do? I wonder just how good those two could be at the Amurican way of business. Or maybe they’re inspired by the Twitterer-in-Chief, with his something-for-nothing business model.
2
I'm a visiting nurse, so always on the road, always in need of a public restroom. I don't feel entitled to use the restrooms of businesses, nor do I feel entitled to use their wifi. I use Starbuck's restroom's when I'm desperate, and I always buy a coffee first. I just don't feel right using the bathroom of a private business, without paying in some way. I buy a plain coffee, so I'm not mooching off the business, and not putting anyone in the uncomfortable position to saying "no," to me.
14
Exactly, team member of society, consideration of others . I had one person come into a restaurant I was working with fast food and want to sit down and take a table up to eat it. Is that ok?, how about another person who ordered something to go and then proceeded to sit at a table while he played with his phone after. I guess that's ok too. Consideration for your fellow human being goes a long way.
5
Anna and Bill,
Your comments could have been valid if the men were asked to leave after two HOURS and not two MINUTES - AND the manager didn't call the police EMERGENCY line when both men were completely PEACEFUL.
7
I will no longer eat, drink coffee and/or enter a Starbucks! Enough, is enough!!!!
2
My friends, I am not the first to say this, but let me say I go to this Starbucks to work - until it closed, that is - and to other coffee establishments in Philly - and when I do, I ALWAYS BUY SOMETHING, no matter how small. It's a respect thing - it's the consciousness that this is a place of business. If you can't understand that, then there isn't any helping you.
Unfortunately, these two don't seem like the sharpest tools in the shed to begin with, which isn't a crime. Thugs they are not, but neither are they Einsteins.
13
So what? Does that mean they can be willfully mistreated?
8
Because they didn’t buy anything they should be arrested, put in hand cuffs and taken to a police station?? Any time you go to a store and not buy anything, it’s a crime?
11
I think the crime, if there was one, was not complying with a lawful order to leave the premises. That's criminal trespass. A manager can give such an order in many cases. If they give such an order and you don't leave, you might be arrested for trespass. I wouldn't recommend it trying it. I am not saying the order to leave was lawful in this case. The manager may have erred. The cops will normally just see the case as a guy who refused a lawful order to leave and they will arrest them. They tend to take the side of the business. The person then may be charged with criminal trespass by the DA's office.
1
Gee, my heart goes out to these guys. Why should any law-abiding person in the US have to have in the back of their mind that something like this might happen? My heart also goes out to the employee who called the police, who's been separated from the company. It's too easy to assume they were evil or a hardened bigot. They probably made a mistake, like we all do. And now they are on their own to think about it. And, in the big picture, all three, under different circumstances, would probably get along just fine, be friends.
I often head straight to the restroom upon entering even if its just to wash my hands. I hate Starbucks stores where I have to ASK to use the restroom regardless if its before or after I've placed my order. If I am meeting someone and get there first, I might grab a table or I might place an order first. Seems like good manners towards the person you are meeting to wait, though bad manners to take a table in a busy place if another customer was there first and already ordered. If a person asked for a meeting and suggested Starbucks, I might expect them to pay for my coffee since they invited me - therefore, again, I would wait for them to arrive. So many parameters here... Why is there a right or wrong way to meet at a Starbucks?
13
I am truly amazed the police were called - it's absolute overkill and looks like bigotry and racism. Judging by the video and reports, her reaction was totally hysterical, they weren't causing a ruckus or being a danger.
What is it with people that they can't deal with situations like this without calling the police for back -up. What has happened to human interaction? You hear stories like this every day, it's absurd, bizarre. And too many do end on a worse note than this. Why didn't she wait until the friend arrived and then ask again if they wanted to order?
I have sat down in café's or restaurants and not ordered until friends have arrived, even used the bathrooms, and I have never, ever been asked to leave however late my friends were. And definitely the police were never called.
Also Starbucks has (had?) a culture of encouraging people to sit for hours, work, use the wi-fi, have meetings – marketing that helped make them the success that they are. I see people all the time just walking in sitting down and working having bought nothing and no one says anything or appears to care.
18
I'm white and the way these two young me was plain and unambiguously wrong. Who cares if they "should have bought a drink" or "refused to leave when the police asked?" If they were white it would not have happened.
24
Thank you for being a reasonable and honest human being.
I am being to think that some of the people who comment here aren’t actual human being but rather Russian trolls. The lack of empathy and ability to reason is alarming.
4
I am a white middle aged female runner in NYC. When I go for long runs, I often stop at a Starbucks store when I need to use the restroom -- alone or with fellow runners -- and ask if I can use it. I have never been turned down; I have never been asked if I plan to purchase anything; store employees have never called the police and I have never been arrested. You think maybe my race, gender and age have anything to do with that?
105
Yes, I know I’m given a pass in certain situations because of my race — but mostly because of my gender (unthreatening).
I figure I will accept the perks that are divvied out to my otherwise oppressed gender — while fighting politically against the oppression.
2
What about your implied ageism and reverse racism? Would you bother posting in if the discrimination was against white men or any older white working class person?
1
I appreciate the men speaking out, but I think they should also file lawsuits against the police and against starbucks- I know they may not want to do so - it is time consuming - but I do think that helps change the world - use the courts, and the public - use both.
29
Every Starbuck's that I have been to is different and I think it is the individual management who sets the tone. If I have to pee really badly give me the key or combo and I will deal with the ordering later. If I am waiting for someone else to come, Starbuck's will be paid for the space. Most of the stores that I have been to really don't care who is doing what where as long as there is not a ruckus and one is quiet and respectful of others. These two guys were discriminated against, and I would look at the manager of this store for re-education.
22
Hey what if the third guy that showed up was also black? He was in the store. He did not purchase anything. He even yelled at the cops. Heck he actually caused a disturbance.
15
why so much stupid assumptions about the 3rd person? justifying Starbucks and police action?
I’m just outside of Philly, so just a train ride away. The one thing that is being completely overlooked by the media, including local Philly news, is the bathroom problems of Philly. Outings in Philly have put me in a state of panic over getting access to a proper bathroom. The building codes in Philly allow many bars, restaurants, etc. to operate with with usually one, sometimes two, unisex bathrooms for a place that’s holding 75-100 people indulging in alcohol/beverages/food.
I went into that very Starbucks those two men were escorted out the day of the Eagles Super Bowl parade and they had a sign on the bathroom that it was “closed due to biohazards”. They didn’t want people using their restroom, as with most business in Philly unless you buy something. Businesses in Philadelphia would rather you defecate and urinate in the streets than allow use of a bathroom to a non-paying customer and often don’t have enough restrooms to accommodate even paying ones. I have a hard time going to the bathroom as a white woman in that city, especially the Rittenhouse area, I can only imagine the struggle as a black man or someone who looks a little rugged or dirty.
This city routinely prevents access to proper toilet receptacles out of fear of someone being homeless or improper use of the restroom. It’s ridiculous.
28
This Starbucks must have had problems in the past if they kept this restrooms locked. An extreme measure, but I have been to stores that just eliminated rest rooms for anyone. As far as I know there is no legal requirement to have a rest room.
6
Any place that sells coffee and bran muffins, should by law, have to have bathrooms haha!
“This Starbucks must have had problems in the past especially if they kept the bathrooms locked”
Did you read the article? Because if you did, then I have to question your reading compression skills given that the entirety of your response has nothing to do with the events presented and the arguments made in the article.
Your response sounds like an excuse. An excuse for ignorance, racism or white guilt.
I recommend that everybody's take the Harvard implicit association test https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/ and read the book blindspot. http://blindspot.fas.harvard.edu/Book. You might be surprised by the results.
7
The numbers are what terrify me.
TWO minutes. FIVE police officers arrested them. For sitting while black.
65
And 15 minutes before an ambulance was called for Stephon Clark.
7
This is what racism looks like in the 21st Century. It's no longer front and center, but in the background, characterized by whites assuming the worst about any person of color.
We've still got a long way to go....
48
Ah, so much conjecture! "If they were white..."
Well, we don't know if the situation would have been different.
What we DO know is two guys entered the shop, one immediately wished to use the restroom, was asked if he wished to purchase a drink, refused to, sat down, was asked (along with his companion) if he wished then to order a drink, again refused. The police entered, asked the men to leave, they refused. They were arrested.
The men provoked the situation. It is common practice for coffee shops to provide restrooms ONLY for paying customers. I know folks have posted how this hasn't been their experience, but it is a store's right to put conditions on services such as restroom usage. Once the manager asked them to leave and the cops did, they lost their right to be in that store, period!
Now, they could have protested to Starbucks' management, later. They chose to make this incident occur.
17
I routinely meet people at Starbucks and routinely use bathrooms at Starbucks. Never been asked to buy something. I even used to use their WiFi. Sometimes I’d buy something, sometimes not. No one has ever asked me to leave. Bathrooms were always unlocked unless being used. I’ve done this in Philly, DC, NYC, Boston, Chicago, Orlando area, and probably a dozen other cities not to mention suburbs. I’m white. I’ve even seen others do the same, no problems.
13
No need for conjecture because we already know thousands of other non-payers use Starbucks without paying, are not asked to leave, are not reported to police, aren't arrested, aren't thrown in jail for hours.
Anything else I can help you with?
1
On the one hand the two men should have ordered something while they waited. Starbucks, Panero Bread and others are quite generous with their premises and ordering something is just a common courtesy. On the other hand it was stupid and reckless to call the police. Sadly, it is hard to escape the conclusion that if two white men had sat down and waited there would have been no incident. However, for me this is a case of two wrongs in that no one seemed to have done anything that would have defused the situation and now we have a national controversy and a holy war inspired by the lack of a cup of coffee,
11
They were there two MINUTES before the police were called. A White person was in the same Starbucks for two HOURS and order NOTHING no police were called.
2
Did anyone ever get to talk to meet the people or persons whom they were waiting for in connection with the meeting?
2
Yes. the (white) man with whom they had a meeting arrived at the police were taking the other two men away. He argued with the police about the situation, you can hear it on one of the posted videos, but he was not charged with anything.
8
He came in and explained that they were waiting for him and offered to go elsewhere. The police said ' no " they are under arrest then told them to get up and handcuffed them and took them to NINE hours in the lockup.
10
Yes, he came in when the police were there. He concurred there was a meeting with him, and asked why they had to be arrested. He caused a bit of a disturbance questioning the police action, but he's white. Had he not been, would he too have been arrested for interfering with the police?
8
Let me understand this, I have been working since i was 13. So now it's ok for anyone to sit in my establishment and take up a table and not order anything? I have had people come in and try to bring in fast food and eat it in restaurants I have worked in. No joke. Is this ok? , is it now ok for anyone to use private property as they see fit? Order a cup of coffee , be a team member in society to your fellow man. Consideraron on all sides for everyone would go a long way.
15
Starbucks is on record saying it is ok for anyone to sit in their establishments and take up a table and not order anything. I am surprised that people are still raising the loitering and trespassing issue when it cannot credibly exist given the policies in place at Starbucks. The lawyer for the two men pushed back on Robin Roberts when she raised the trespassing/loitering issue on GMA.
10
You missed the part about them waiting for a friend who did show up just after the police arrived. I have waited until a friend arrived to order and the police were never called on me and management didn't try to boot me out! Plus, Starbucks encouraged this, it was a huge marketing tool, branding to make their places trendy, appealing, community hubs.
11
This is one of hundreds of articles in the last few years about the treatment of blacks, browns, reds, yellows, by our police. To the naked eye, I am white, and have never in my 80 years been hassled by cops. When I lived in Mayor Lindsay's NYC, I trusted and liked the policemen in the neighborhoods I knew. But as a result of the hassles and worse, murders of citizens by these so-called public servants, I no longer trust any of them. I wouldn't call a cop for help under any circumstances. All the efforts at reducing racism in the last decade or so, I'd say, have backfired. The situation for non-white Americans is getting worse.
16
Please stick to your promise never to call a cop ever.
Why didn't one of these men order a cup of coffee?
9
Because they were arrested before their friend showed up. They were polite waiting for him before ordering. Sounds thoughtful to me!
12
As a white male I have been in many a Starbucks waiting for other people to have a meeting and have never been asked to buy anything ...ever. Yes I have been denied the restroom without a purchase which is fine with me. In fact Starbucks cultivates the impression that it’s a place where people meet and perhaps spend hours nursing one coffee while they take up valuable seating space. I have never seen anyone tosssed out because they didn’t purchase enough.... or anything for that matter.
The situation here is clearly not about purchasing a coffee or using the restroom. The only justification for asking two black men to leave is racial bias - end of story.
And I’m sorry but If I was sitting in a Starbucks waiting for someone and officers came in and asked me to step outside I too would protest. The most normal thing in the world.
The officers had no basis for arresting them except that they didn’t buy a coffee. It was a rush to judgement because of color.
Ridiculous if it wasn’t so terrifying.
51
I'd like to know: Does the Starbucks employee who called the cops within 2 minutes no longer work at Starbucks? Or does he/she simply no longer work at that store, which is what the company statement seems to say?
5
It was the handling of the whole thing that was awful. True, the could have bought a drink, but I've seen homeless people but a drink and sit for hours in one I visit and no one seems to mind much. And I see well dressed business people but nothing and sit for hours. If Starbucks wants to let people sit for hours, that's their business but they should put up a simple sign that says "Table and chairs are for customers. Waiting is OK if you want to become a customer. "
3
About a year ago something similar happened to my nieces, who had been invited to host a graduation party at a South Carolina hotel. Apparently one of the guests complained to the manager and the manager acted without regard for the invitation extended by the owner, who was off premises. The party was racially mixed.
4
"In a news conference on Thursday, Commissioner Richard Ross Jr. of the Philadelphia Police Department apologized to the two men and said the episode warranted a policy change.
He also suggested that the officers might not have been aware that Starbucks, which has more than 8,000 stores nationwide, presents itself as a meeting place where people can linger.
“They were put in some ways in an untenable position,” he said. “You can’t expect them to walk into every business and intuitively know what every policy is.” Really??? Everyone knows that is what Starbucks and most coffee houses are selling along with coffee drinks.
18
Regardless of anything, when I use a Starbucks or any other business as a meeting spot, I buy a cup of coffee or a soda or whatever, even if I'm not thirsty. To use a coffee shop or a restaurant as free meeting space is, simply, poor manners, cheap and unprofessional. That's just the way I was raised.
Doesn't excuse what happened to these two gentlemen. But businesses have no obligation to provide free conference space.
Once again, it seems like a racial issue is rooted in a chicken-or-egg situation that mushroomed as a result of assumptions and misunderstandings. If the gentlemen had, to coin a phrase, done the right thing and bought a cup of coffee as payment, if you will, for conference space, we likely wouldn't be having this discussion. That white folks do the same thing and don't get hassled might be true, and that is disturbing. But, just because someone else believes they have the right to use a cafe as a free conference center shouldn't excuse your doing it, too.
23
Do you know their plan was to use Starbucks as a "free conference center" or were they just waiting for the rest of the group to arrive. I use the restroom before ordering, and I wait for whomever I'm meeting so we order together. Ah, but I'm white.
7
I'm white, and I've often been in Starbucks where bathrooms are "only for paying customers"...in Philly, NYC, Detroit.
I've also been turned down to use the restroom, and no, I didn't then sit down, I left.
Again, unless you've been to that shop with that particularly employee your experiences are rather useless.
I don't think situation was handled properly, but come on just order a drink. They could have EASILY said, we are waiting for our third party and then we will order. done.
1
"That white folks do the same thing and don't get hassled might be true,"
don't get HASSLED?
The manager called 911 within TWO minutes of their arrival and 5 policemen ARRESTED them and HANDCUFFED them and kept them in JAIL for NINE HOURS.
if that's just a HASSLE to you, what is a truly bad day for you?
1
Female manager probably felt threatened or it was, in fact, Starbucks policy--why she wasn't fired but moved.
But that aside, what are restaurant owners to do when people off the street want to use the facilities for free and hang out buying nothing, taking a paying table off the floor?
In Europe, they are asked once, sometimes politely, and then the police are called--especially in Paris.
15
What are restaurant owners to do. Well they are to treat everyone equally. For a start. How about that?
29
A. We’re not in Paris. B. I’ve sat in many coffee shops, including Starbucks, waiting 10 or 20 minutes for a friend or business contact to show up, waiting to order until they arrived.
These guys were there for 2 minutes before police were called. That’s ridiculous.
11
No doubt racial bias, implicit or otherwise, was involved. But, let's not pretend that the guys couldn't have handled the situation better. They could easily have said, we are waiting on our friend and then we will order.
Interesting, so initially Commissioner Richard Ross Jr., apparently without even talking to anyone but his own police, came out and claimed the police were in the right. Another example of the blue line, "we are right no matter what", then the video, the people on the scene, public opinion, and whoops...maybe not so right.
So sad even cops at the top cannot be better than simple blue tribalism.
13
In situations where things are quiet I like to imagine the police following the " What would Sheriff Andy Taylor of Mayberry do?" rule. Likely a big smile, chat everyone up, soothe nerves and egos, get everyone comfortable, shaking hands, and be on his way. At least that's the first thing to try.
16
Andy was a sheriff in a small all white Southern town in the 1960s. Are you sure Sheriff Taylor would behave as you describe?
Can't be sure, the show is over, and the topic of race was avoided. I am wishing that police treat folks in their areas as Sheriff Taylor did for the Mayberrians. Is there a better example to use for this point?
I worked as a tour guide aboard the double decker buses that leave from Times Square for a decade. The Black bus drivers and ticket sellers only used the restrooms on the second floor of the Korean deli on 47th between Broadway and 8th. Black tour guides would also use the Starbucks in the Morgan Stanley building.
White tour guides used those restrooms as well as the restrooms in the W hotel and the Crown Plaza hotel. When my Black coworkers entered the doors of the hotels, they were always stopped.
Guides and drivers stand around waiting to be assigned to bus at the top of Times Square. Some White people passing by my Black co workers physically showed discomfort walking by them at least once a minute, every minute of the day. Black people in the USA who pay attention to every social slight unconsciously shown towards them would not be able to survive.
31
The reality is that phone videos have played a very big role in exposing the police. The police commissioner, without investigating why those men chose to meet at Starbucks (his excuse: police don't know Starbucks policy) nor did he bother to take their story into consideration, chose to malign their names.
Until these videos started surfacing, the black people were always the ones on the wrong. The police version of the story was always accurate. The police were always "just doing their job" (of arresting black folk?)
It's really time for police everywhere to take a real hard look at their practices (and biases) and make a very conscious effort to regain the trust of the people.
29
I don't understand why so many comments are trying to put this in a good light. As a white woman, I have waited for someone to arrive without a drink. I also don't get followed in clothing stores. I can hail a cab and get one easily. This was racist, and Starbucks is doing the right thing. Beyond sensitivity and diversity training, there should also be real accountability in all businesses for employees who treat people of color differently.
36
But why does society treat black me. Differently?
No one wants admit the answer.
It’s not right but there is a reason for it. Ask yourself...
All too often we see the same bad optics, on the news or in person.
I'm a 64 year-old white woman. I was asked to leave a SB when sitting at a table without purchasing anything.
I've been followed around stores and museums, one particular art supply store where the guard appeared around every aisle I walked down, and at a museum where I was the only one in a room where the guard could see me from any position - instead she literally walked several feet behind me as I went from piece to piece around the room.
All of the above guards were black, by the way. And I was irritated, sure, but aware they were just doing their job. Although the museum guard was a little over the top.
18
All what is expressed is fine and good. However, I will like someone to do little experiment, and record it:
Have two nicely-dressed WASPy-looking white guys go to a Starbucks in a tony zip code and attempt to do whatever these two individuals tried to do.
It will be quite illuminating for each one of us, of course for Starbucks, and for us to learn that how the zip code is quite a determinant in such scenarios.
6
No need to gin up an experiment. A white man recently walked into a Starbucks in Torrance, CA and without purchasing anything, asked for and received the restroom code. A black man did the same thing and was refused the restroom code by the "manager." Clearly zip codes have little to do with the different treatment.
5
I don't know if this incident was racist or not. I do know that racism is pervasive. I also know that incidents can be perceived to be racist when, in reality, they are not. As a member of racial minority, I am also aware that if I walked into a restaurant, occupied a table and began reading a book with no intention of ordering anything, it would - at best - be inconsiderate. At worst, it could be construed as illegal trespassing. In fact, in some food courts, there are signs that remind even paying customers of a time limit for occupying tables.
16
Hmm. I wonder why this company Starbucks is willing to pour tens of millions to "fix this".
3
Do you know the intent to not buy anything was there? What's wrong with waiting for the rest of your group to arrive before ordering? BTW, these men were in Starbucks for a total of two minutes before the 911 call was placed. Barely enough time to take a coat off, and settle in with a book.
8
Starbucks values their reputation and the goodwill of the public. They don’t want a repeat incident and want to introduce a more consistent policy. I don’t like their coffee, but by and large they’re pretty good corporate citizens. Compared to, say Denny’s, where these incidents were found to be chronic in the 1990s.
4
I am a tradesperson and often my clothing is dirty based on the work I do. I was walking down the street one day, carrying a coffee cup, and approached a woman standing in her driveway, wanting to ask directions to a store in the area. She quickly backed away, and refused to have anything to do with me, and from her reaction I gleaned she was apparently thinking I was a homeless person or beggar about to beg for spare change to put in my change cup.
People have misunderstandings about others. We dont' all go on the news and try to shame people for their misunderstandings.
If after being viewed as an annoying homeless beggar, I had gone into a Starbucks and sat there and been asked to leave because I wasn't buying anything, again viewed as a homeless beggar because I happened to be in work clothes but was waiting for a meeting with a friend over a real estate deal, instead of becoming combative or defiant, I would have just bought something,.
You see, people dont' always see others clearly, but there are also choices: there are harmonious ways of resolving situations, and there are hostile ways of not resolving things. To be defiant and refuse to respect the store owner or employees' instructions is not a response I can admire.
44
Serious False equivalence. These men don't look homeless and they said they were meeting someone. Numerous white people were in the store several admitted to using the restroom before purchasing and sitting for hours without ordering. No one was scared of disrupted by the mens "defiance" to be treated like second class citizens.
23
Great comment. I would only add that seniors are treated horribly by pretty much everyone all the time. But NYT has only published one column about it in the 10 years or so that I've been reading NYT and commenters don't seem to care.
5
First of all, you have characterized the two men as defiant and combative without having any proof that they were.
Second, to compare the time a woman backed away from you because your clothes were dirty to what happened to Mr. Robinson and Mr. Nelson is disingenuous. The woman made a snap judgment based on the fact that your clothes were dirty, not the color of your skin.
Third, the disharmony that occurred here was because a Starbucks manager called the cops after two people were sitting there for 2 minutes. Starbucks doesn't have wait service, so it was unusual for the manager to approach their table and ask them if they wanted to order something. By contrast, Mr. Nelson and Mr. Robinson were doing the very ordinary thing of waiting for a friend in a coffee shop, and were deemed a threat.
You are bending over backwards to avoid the plain reality that Mr. Nelson and Mr. Robinson were profiled.
32
Is it asking too much to suggest that they buy a cup of coffee?
That seems the best way of ensuring that this doesn't happen again. The facilities are for the use of the paying customers after all. Mr. Robinson and Mr. Nelson owe Starbucks an apology.
Talk about a storm in a teacup!
32
I am an old white woman and have been refused the use of the bathroom at Starbucks because of the non-customer rule. Not a surprise.
I am amazed these guys were so clueless they thought a commercial business was just there for a meeting they were “looking forward to having” without them purchasing so much as a cup of coffee.
So now, we should all plan our meetings for Starbucks.. no problem, bring a thermos!
18
No not too much, but, Ian, if you read the story they were waiting for a friend who would join them, presumably for that cup of coffee. They were only there 2 mins before police were called. How would you feel if you were legitimately waiting for a friend before ordering your coffee, but before that friend arrives the police are handcuffing you and escorting you out without giving you a reason? Maybe you've never been handcuffed, maybe you've never been looked at suspiciously just for walking into a store. Maybe you need to think about walking in someone's shoes who has, to begin to understand what this is about. I guarantee it wouldn't be a 'storm in a teacup' in your life if you were handcuffed by police for no reason.
14
Really? Have you never arranged to meet someone at a cafe, restaurant etc? And you think that is a crime?
7
Once again, "Police Procedures" at work. Very often they wind up with a dead civilian. The cops say the black guys were "defiant." Also sometimes expressed as "having an attitude." Don't follow orders and you wind up on your face with a knee in your back. And yet, despite all these ridiculous incidents, no one ever asks how these "Police Procedures" have been arrived at.
16
No. These situations do not “very often” end up with a person dead. The media attention of rare events makes it seem that way. You know what does happen every day? Every single day police are assaulted, they are punched, they are resisted, they are evaded, they are shot at. They just don’t get the media attention. If the media paid as much attention to all the harassment that cops take- particularly in bad neighborhoods- there would be a whole lot more understanding of why they “overreact.”
7
Do you really think that cops are killing people 'very often'? You have a very skewed view of the police.
5
My son a college student (white), spends countless hours working in many different Starbucks, and has never been asked to leave. He sometimes orders a coffee, but many times buys nothing. He has on occasion been asked if he wants to purchase anything , but even if he declines he has never been asked to leave. Of course there was a double standard/ racial bias used here.
44
Really? Your son goes into Starbucks to study, and often doesn’t buy anything? Does that seem fair? Is it courteous? As behavior, it certainly fails the “what if everyone did that” test,
9
I agree Michael. Hey TS, give your son a few bucks and tell him to spend it at the establishments he uses as a library. If he's a college student he's old enough to know that businesses require business to stay in business.
8
If two white guys walked into a soul food restaurant in Harlem and announced that they were going to use a table for a business meeting and weren't going to buy anything, would the black owner be entitled to kick them out? You bet.
23
Who says they weren't ordering? It is very common to wait until everyone arrives to order together. Move along. Your "theory" doesn't pass the smell test.
23
Nope, that is not how Starbucks works. You CAN wait for you clients or colleagues, no questions asked. I have never been approached by a manager when waiting for a friend. Starbucks knows they are in the wrong and anyone who regularly goes there knows this as well!
15
Nice try, but the comparison does not work. They did not come in and announce anything. They followed customary coffee culture at Starbucks, like so many of us have without ANY consequences. Just try to have empathy. Listen. Read all the comments. Please learn. Please.
21
stop stop stop stop stop.
The employee that called the police is gone.
Walk into any starbucks at any time and you will see people hanging out that did not buy a thing. Those people use the bathroom too.
Like it or not, Starbucks has become the Barnes and Noble / public library of the world. The police were called because they were black. The police did not give them a pass because they were black. The rest is just noise. Stop.
55
1. You don't know what was in the police's heads. 2. The manager asked them to leave when they refused to buy anything. Starbucks is NOT a public property, no matter how much you may want to pretend otherwise and since it is NOT, refusing to leave when asked to leave IS trespassing and trespassing IS against the law. Also, many white people have posted in pointing out that they were denied bathroom access at Starbucks less they purchased something.
13
I am advising that if you have a loved one, and is black, having a melt down, do not call the police! Leave the premised until the person calms down. Too many folks are being shot and killed by the police. Forget about civil rights, the bill of rights, innocent before guilty, a trial of your peers, a speedy trial, it's all a load of hooey.
6
I'm not African American. I do not have to live with the daily worry that they do when it comes to the police or being misunderstood by strangers. I have an autistic brother and that worries me because of how people are nowadays. They assume the worst and immediately escalate the situation and then, after the worst has happened because of their escalation they try to avoid being responsible. I've seen it with my brother.
The closest I can come to the experience most African Americans have is from my college days. Anytime I went into a store in the small upstate NY city where I went to college I was immediately recognizable as a college student. (The knapsack gave me away.) We were followed in stores, our checks were often refused, we were required to provide 2 forms of id even if we used Traveler's Checks and they were often turned down. We received collection notices in the mail the day before our phone bills were due. In other words, even though we brought money into that city, we were treated like troublemakers.
I'll never forget when visited this same small city as an adult. I charged something and they didn't even ask to see id. When I told them that I'd bought things there as a student and they'd treated me like a criminal they claimed just the opposite. The city hated us but it needed us.
Starbucks and other American businesses need to decide what they want to be: welcoming to all or blatantly racist. Unfortunately there is no middle ground.
17
Howard Schulz, who founded Starbucks, postures as a liberal, hip guy. Not true! Starbucks is a nasty outfit. Its marketing has convinced working class folk, esepcially women, to load up on 500 - 600 calorie drinks thus contributing to the obesity epidemic. Besides, just think: a $5.00 sweet drink (w/whipped cream) and a doughnut all for $7 for people who are earning $10 per hr. Huh!! Furthermore, Starbuck serves up lousy coffee. They buy cheap beans and then burn them. The regular coffees taste like tar. Starbucks is just another nasty chain store pretending to be cool.
12
Not only that, but several years ago when Obama and the Dems were hoping to manipulate the GOP into cutting SS benefits by switching to Chained CPI, Starbucks was all in on the idea. I remember they had a campaign to put little "compromise on SS" messages on their cups. I don't like them, but I do like private private property owners to have rights, which is why I support them on this.
8
Agreed. And the food is even worse.
4
Starbucks posts prices and caloric content for all its drink and food items. No one is forcing "working class folk, esepcially (sic) women, to load up on 500 - 600 calorie drinks thus contributing to the obesity epidemic." Adults make choices how to spend their money, and what they eat. The information is there for them to make the decision.
2
don't drink Starbucks coffee...don't even go there.
8
Boycott Starbucks because one employee in one of 10,000 locations did not follow company policy and was immediately fired?
I've read hundreds of comments about this story and haven't seen anyone describe any similar incidents. I assume if other people had experienced this in Starbucks they'd be talking about it now.
What exactly are you blaming the company for?
Maybe you have other gripes about the them. I certainly do, but they're nothing I would call for other people to stop going in there about.
7
There's no question that this is a case of discrimination, unconscious or deliberate. This incident could have turned out much worse. But, Starbucks needs to be commended for its actions. Firstly, they tried to get the facts and then, the CEO personally apologized and even met with the two men. Now they are living up to their commitment of making Starbucks being the "third place" ( after home and work) by trying to educate their staff about unconscious biases at a significant expense. What's left to be done is to investigate the reason why the culture of the senior management, embodied by Howard Schultz, did not make down to the front line staff.
8
Why is the Starbucks employee who called the police not identified?
3
She has been identified on social media.
1
So i guess now it's all right at least in Philadelphia to go to a Starbucks, use their wi-fi, sit as long as you want but never buy anything. Someone it seems there is something wrong with that business model.
12
Apparently white people do it all the time if comments on this thread are to be believed. These guys presumably would have ordered a coffee once their friend arrived, they were only there 2 minutes!
11
Just as the two black gentlemen arrested for trespassing were victims, so too were the police! As society is becoming more amorphous with little regard as to what is right and wrong, police have become purveyors of petty enforcement; initiated by clueless complainants. The police responded because the store manager did not want the two gentlemen to remain; once they were ask to leave and refused, then trespassing is committed. The issue is between StarBucks, Mr. Nelson and Mr. Robinson. Far too long police respond to disputes, many civil in nature; the police arrive because it is their duty. But it must be the responsibility of each citizen to ask, if the situation warrants a police call? Once called, the police must respond regardless if it is a police matter or not. Shame on StarBucks for wasting law enforcement's time and resources. And many thanks to the Philadelphia Police Department who conducted themselves with professionalism and restraint, as the gentleman who claim to know the victims should have been arrested for obstruction.
6
That these men were singled out because of their skin color is pretty clear. What no article ever honestly explores is why in 2018 young black men are still being profiled. To just blame it on white privilege or slavery doesn't work. Profiling of black men cuts across all ethnic groups and includes blacks themselves.
7
"He also suggested that the officers might not have been aware that Starbucks, which has more than 8,000 stores nationwide, presents itself as a meeting place where people can linger"
Are you kidding? Commissioner Richard Ross Jr., I think it’s time for you to go.
16
Is there a way to see how often this Starbucks and/or Starbucks Manager called the police?
6
Why? She has already been fired. What do you want to do her?
3
She wasn't fired - she and Starbucks came to a 'mutual agreement' that she not work there anymore.
Why do you assume anyone wants to 'do [something] to her'??
It would be helpful to see if this is a part of a larger pattern. On whom does this manager or this Starbucks call for emergency assistance from the police in such a casual manner. If you listen to the 911 call, the manager seems fairly nonchalant.
Calling 911 seems like it should be saved for emergencies.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5627691/Starbucks-manager-called...
5
If it OK to hang around a Starbucks and not purchase anything, then why does Starbucks have locked restrooms?
Locked restrooms are now everywhere. Why? Because too many non-customers use them. And even when they are locked we see people sneaking in to use them--sometimes even only partially clothed while they are basically taking showers and washing themselves there. Who wants to eat after witnessing something like that?
You can't just walk into any restaurant in town that has a male or female host and ask to sit at a table and then not order anything. You won't be seated. What is the difference between not being seated and being asked to leave if there isn't a host, as was done at this Starbuck's?
We have, at times, not been able to find a place to sit and eat our meal because there have been so many people just "hanging around." So, does an establishment only start asking people to leave when it is full and paying customers have no place to sit, or do as this Starbuck's manager did and ask people to leave before it gets full?
These two men were told that the facilities there were for paying customers. That's the way it is for almost all restaurants.
To claim racial bias is to make a claim without the facts needed to support it. On the same day 6-7 Black Americans were murdered by other Black Americans. I reserve my concern and caring for them, not for a couple of people who couldn't follow some minor rules at a restaurant and get their 15 minutes of fame.
14
Your first sentence or question makes zero sense. What does hanging around Starbucks without purchasing anything have to do with locked restrooms? Nice try.
YESSSS. There are horrid examples of racism on a daily basis in this country. But, this isn't one.
Institute a policy that says people must buy something, and enforce it equally if that is your business's desire. Had they not been black though, they'd not have been noticed in the 2 minutes it took for the police to call after there arrival.
15
I've entered many a cafe and waited for a friend before ordering. Millions do this every day, maybe you've even done it yourself. and if the comments on this thread are to be believed, white people do it at Starbucks without a problem.
7
Thank you Mr Nelson and Mr Robinson for speaking out and up for young black men. They’re right - these racially biased incidents are traumatizing to young black men. I know because the 4th grade black boys in my classroom are scared. Scared to grow up in a society where black men and boys are perceived as a menace. Their families- though they teach them to be strong- are scared too. Wake up white society ( and I include myself in that)and lean into the truth. Our democracy and the health and safety of the youth of this country depend on it!
16
I am not a huge fan of Starbuck's Coffee and rarely patronize their cafes; now, even more reason not to do so . . .
4
The police response is as troubling, if not more so, than the call from the manager. No notice or mention of why they were being asked to leave? In cuffs? One has to wonder if non-black patrons would have been treated (by manager or police) with similar disrespect and presumption of guilt.
10
Disgruntled employee who hates working there decides to get the store in trouble by making an unwarranted call. 5 minutes is the standard wait time. Everyone in the biz knows that.
3
I don't believe their "two minutes" claim, and I don't believe they didn't know why they were being handcuffed. Trespassing is against the law. If you refuse to leave someone else's property, you ARE trespassing, and trespassing IS against the law. Starbucks could have pressed charges, but declined to.
10
Since when is sitting in a coffee bar
" trespassing"?
Isn't it a public place?
Are white 23 year olds handcuffed for the crime of not ordering coffee fast enough?
4
So what exactly do you believe they were there for? For a sinister purpose, to intimidate everyone, to commit a crime? To maliciously not order coffee to deny Starbucks revenue? This is so ridiculous. Are black people only in public spaces to do bad things in your thinking? How were they trespassing? People wait every day, for friends, for service, for the bus. But in your mind, if you are black, you can only be in a public place if your intentions are bad and underhanded. Do you even hear yourself? Everyone in your life must be punctual and never keep you waiting, ever. Self righteous much?
Denial of overt racism runs strong through many of these comments. I am hanging my head in shame and sadness for our country.
15
My son, who is white, and a college student was put into handcuffs and a squad car because he has long hair and looked "suspicious". Unfortunately he didn't get to share his story on "Good Morning America". I do think the Police should stop arresting young men and women, black or white, for literally no reason except the way they look. I like to think my taxes can be put to better use.
11
If Starbucks EVER learns to brew and serve coffee that doesn't taste BURNT then I'll be a little quicker to order too.
6
Kudos and thanks to these two young men. I feel their message is so much stronger because they didn't resist the officers. What happened to them is despicable. They provided the best example of how to deal with an unjust situation. May we all learn from their example!
8
The other problem that needs airing is the scarsity of clean public restrooms in US towns, cities and in between. Given that failure, the local government plan must be to default to retail businesses?
Doing my part to raise awareness
one encounter at a time, when it is my turn at the cash register, I step up, my intended purchase in hand, and ask where the restroom is located.
If no restroom is offered, I ask the employee a simple question:
“What do YOU do?”
They then have to explain that their restroom is only for employee use, ( but buy the merchandise.) My intention is to get people thinking, “Why doesn’t the society I live in meet this basic human need?’’
Finding clean public restrooms in Singapore, Japan, and Australia has never been an issue. Europe and the US are the worst offenders, and San Francisco tops my list.
5
Take Starbucks to court. Words and apologies are typically superficial and temporary from the top of organizations. What make them feel in their gut is "pay out" in cash.
Charge Starbucks penalty in dollars to make a precedent; and let the news out that businesses will PAY for their racism misconducts. That will be the only beginning.
2
This egregious situation was between the black gentlemen and StarBucks; it had nothing to do with the police. The Police responded to a 911, the police had a complainant, in this case the Starbucks manager. The manager requested that the two individuals be removed after he asked for them to leave. Once the manager states he does not wish for them to remain; they two individuals area trespassing. The police responded, patiently explained why they had to leave and subsequently were arrested for trespassing. The police should never have been called and as society becomes more amorporhous
3
If I walk in, buy coffee and then sit and drink it over 15 minutes, am I a paying customer?
If I walk in, buy coffee and then sit and drink it over 4 hours, am I a paying customer?
If I buy coffee at the same store every day for a year, but on the next day walk in, sit, and then read a book for 6 hours without buying anything, am I a paying customer?
7
These men have comported themselves with dignity and restraint, but now I have one word for them for the public humiliation and degradation they suffered: SUE. Make Starbucks and Philadelphia pay for this violation of their rights.
15
Reading these comments it is astounding the degree to which White Americans will go to rationalize obvious racism.
37
It is not at all obvious that this was a racist act. Two guys walk into a coffee shop and refuse to buy a coffee or anything else, taking a table that should be for paying customers. They are asked to buy coffee or leave. They refuse. Cops show up asking them to leave - they refuse.
What is obvious is that this was a set up.
6
You might be misguided in your understanding of Starbucks culture. How they utilized it is exactly as I have for years ( a professional, white woman). A place to meet, where you politely wait for your colleague so you can order together, or even treat them to a coffee. You might need to use the bathroom while waiting, which for me has never ever been a problem. This is so typical, which is why the outrage regarding their treatment. My hope is that you, and others who are commenting and clearly don’t frequent Starbucks, simply misunderstand the typical etiquette there. If that is not the case, than these comments only further the proof of imbedded racial bias in our country.
4
I have sat in dozens of coffee shops and restaurants waiting for dates, friends, business associates, you name it. I have used restrooms in Starbucks many times without making a single purchase... on that visit. I have used restrooms before ordering at a restaurant or cafe more times than I can count. I have not once been asked to leave. The only difference here? I am young, female, and white. Let's not kid ourselves that there's no bias. Shame on the store manager, those fellas can sit with me any day.
39
I am white. I am sitting in a Starbucks. For 90 minutes. I have not ordered anything. I have used the bathroom. I am still waiting to be asked to leave out...........................................................................................................................
37
That’s because it would be unthinkable in Japan.
2
I'm hoping this will raise awareness on two fronts.
First, that any employee at any business be trained to treat all customers equally, that some attempt to overcome the racial and other biases of the employee be made, and that it is confirmed by the business that this training is followed through on. This is especially true of racial biases, because with the wrong cops showing up this could have been a tragedy. The two-minute factor here is suspicious, to say the least.
Second, that one really isn't entitled to make use of a businesses facilities without buying anything. While it seems that Starbucks has a policy of allowing people to just hang out, Starbucks has the overhead to handle the consequences; in most cities I've been in, there's another one a block away. This is not the case for your average mom & pop cafe. I've seen more than one of those sink in my neighborhood because people order a cup of coffee and sit there for hours poking at their devices. This is fine when there are empty tables, but when the place is full, you're taking money from the pocket of some barista that probably isn't making enough to begin with and some small business owner that's trying to compete with some behemoth chain like Starbucks. This is entitlement in one of it's more obvious forms; try a little awareness. Perhaps this will encourage such businesses to come up with rules, clearly post them, and teach their employees to somehow attempt to enforce them.
4
GMA missed the opportunity to get to the heart of the matter: Does this Starbucks store have a POSTED policy of "no loitering, no bathroom access without purchase", and if so does it enforce it for everyone or did they double down on this pair in apparent racial bias? That's the issue.
Has nothing been learned and changed as a result of the messaging by BLM about how police and others have been putting black men and women at mortal risk...for decades and centuries?
It is unacceptable for the public to be the conscience for Starbucks and the police to get them to be accountable.
Starbucks and the police have pushed on these men a new UNPAID "job" to get them do what THEY are paid to do, without putting citizens in mortal jeopardy.
3
Please put your own life on the line everyday the way cops do just to protect total strangers before bashing cops. One cop is worth more than 50 cop haters.
7
The issue is not about " hating cops".
The issue is black people are treated differently than white people which is a wrong that's needs to be corrected.
Half my family is black throughout marriage and boy do they have horror stories, including having police held guns to my brother in law's head. He was buying aspirin in a pharmacy.
3
How can anyone guarantee that something will "never happen again"? Can we please retire that cliché?
2
I never did like Starbucks coffee. There are other places to meet.
2
i would love to see these two's last few years of social media. I doubt Starbucks would bat-an-eye throwing them out after they read their online posts.
2
And your assumption of their social media misconduct is based on........? Hmmm
9
Their accounts are probably private now but what stopped you from checking when the story first hit the news?
How hard would it have been for the police to ask when their friend was due to arrive and wait with the two men?
If they were just waiting to order until their friend showed up, what’s the big deal? Police stay to protect the manager from spooky black men, the guys get their table, and if it turned out they weren’t being truthful the cops are already there to give the boot.
Why show up and believe the word of a Starbucks manager when there’s no violence or exigency of another kind?
73
/and believe the word of a Starbucks manager/
My point exactly. What WAS the manager's explanation for why she called police?
We don't know, because apparently reporters never bothered to ask.
5
I hope you realize police in big cities are usually quite busy. This isn't Andy and Barney in Mayberry.
6
The police feel they have the right to arrest, anyone who doesn;t comply with their demands;they have the power, they have the guns. This is why they behaved like this, as though they were in foreign territory and could not trust anyone. Since they work foe the city of Philadelphia, the city should make sure the police know how to behave with civility. About time we have conversation about this. TALK TO PEOPLE, PLEASE!
5
This has been going on for centuries. Law enforcement has been used to to go after Native Americans protecting our turf, escaped African slaves, suffragettes,environmentalists, those fighting for labor rights and those fighting for gay rights. Later it became no longer acceptable to use law enforcement to terrorize ALL those groups, just Native and Black Americans.
For decades we were told to show proof and now that technology presents the proof you still have some people trying to make excuses for such racist behavior. Even some of the white patrons spoke out about the disparity in treatment and yet the typical comments are made about how it was OK to treat these black men in a separate but unequal way.
Anyone making excuses for such glaringly biased treatment needs to stop pretending they aren't racist.
27
The people who continue to say things along the lines of, "Well, the men just should have ordered a coffee when the manager asked" are missing the point.
The point is that if they were white they would not have had to.
Period.
61
Plus they were waiting for a client, when I believe it is polite and smart to wait for all arrivals to order.
8
In all the stories I have read on this incident, not one has addressed the glaringly obvious question: why did the (unnamed and now fired) white employee decide to call police after the men were in the store for a scant two minutes?
Did any reporter think to even ask her?
14
They don’t need to ask her, it’s obvious. She saw two back men and that set off her racist alarm bells. She noticed them, but wouldn’t if they were white. Maybe she’d call the police if two white guys were there for 10 minuets or so, but she called TWO MINUTES after they got there. Why should they have had the explain themselves after two minutes? Maybe they wanted to sit and choose what to order.
8
/They don’t need to ask her, it’s obvious./
Obvious? How?
By the way, my post said nothing about the men having to "explain themselves" after two minutes.
3
disregard my last comment. hadn't read the article fully. there two minutes. that is racist
8
Now everyone can sit in Starbucks all day long while ordering nothing. Some fault should be placed on the customer who thinks they can occupy a seat without ordering nothing.
8
They were there TWO MINUTES. When has anyone called the police when you were in a coffee shop for two minutes? Even if you took a seat!
13
News flash: everyone has been doing this at Starbucks for years on end. It’s their thing.
13
This goes on in all Starbucks, you can sit, read, work, WAIT FOR FRIENDS... wether you order or not.
8
Why is it racist to acknowledge 2 BLACK MEN.. should have bought something before they started using the facilities? You get what you give!
8
Are white customers required to do the same thing? No? Then why should black customers have to do so? If this rule doesn't apply to everyone, it is racist, period.
8
there are mistakes on multiple sides. The barista who got scared (the beard didn't help i think), the men who refused to buy or leave a private property or didn't obey the cops(entitled), and may be the cops who proceeded to arrest. Cops have to obey the laws and i don't know what else they could have done if the men refused, and the Starbucks person did not change her mind.
4
Trespassing is against the law.
2
The beard didn’t help?! Santa Claus has a beard! Abraham Lincoln had a beard. Jesus had a beard. Millions of white hipsters using their laptops and taking up a tables at Starbucks without purchasing anything for two minutes even as I type this have beards. Congrats for being part of the problem.
19
Oh please. The beard did it?! Right before Xmas, I was in my local Starbucks, drinking my caramel macchiato, when I realized that the place was full of rather lonely-looking men, some black and white, one shaking as though he had delirium tremens. That's Starbucks before a holiday. Kinda creepy, not full of young people with "clients" and independent contractors waiting for their appointments. This chain has encouraged this "loitering" because it's obviously good for its brand. The Philly manager exercised her white privilege and called her friendly local cops to take care of fellas who unfortunately carried the stigmata of blackness on their skin.
6
I wish I could say "unbelievable", but I can't. Not in this country..so very sad.
17
Could these men have taken a coffee without paying? What's the difference?
3
As a person of color reading many of these letters makes me feel as if I'm in a virtual Starbucks, about to be kicked out because white supremacy doesn't exist and whatever happens is all my fault. Sadly, it's not Starbucks, it's America. Nowhere to run to, nowhere to hide.
48
Please just know there are also whites who are sickened and appalled by what happened.
4
As a white person I find those commenters utterly clueless, incapable of stepping in another's shoes, and looking for any reason to justify the arrests. It is beyond the pale of reason.
Frankly I believe the ONLY reason there are not still lynchings in this racist country is solely because of cell phone cameras.
8
Sorry, but there are blacks, just like whites, who profile black men. How does that fit into the "white supremacy" theory?
1
I really do not understand why the NYT apparently cannot fathom that there is ambiguity in the statement “no longer works there.” There could mean at starbucks generally OR that particular branch. Obviously the difference matters in this case, so why doesn’t the NYT either note the ambiguity or actually spell out what happened to the employee.
13
On NPR, this morning, it was reported that white supremacist groups have targeted African Americans with flyers purporting to be Starbucks coupons for a free coffee that can be downloaded with one of those app code readers, then when one does so, one gets a message with expletives and the epithet for African Americans.
9
Read thru many of comments. Surely the most critical question in this: when the server asked if they needed drinks, did they say 'we're just waiting on someone for a meeting, they'll be here soon' or was it just a simple 'no' without an explanation. If it's the former then obviously completely unacceptable , if its the latter then it's a much greyer situation...
7
"Unacceptable" meaning, ARREST them? Good god.
6
Yes, clearly pretty straightforward.
"Unacceptable meaning, ARREST them?"
NO!
the servers behaviour was unacceptable, thought that was pretty clear from my comment...... GOOD GOD!
I guess it depends on how you are brought up. I won't even stop to use a gas station restroom without buying something. What right would I have?
12
I sometimes stop at a McDonald's to use the rest room without buying anything. Thanks McDonalds.
5
I have heard that the Starbucks on Spruce at 18th is a "coffee shop" where people get their Lattes and their coke.
Let us not politicize this incident and make this into a racist episode.
5
What Starbucks needs to do is make clear to their employees what the rules are. If the bathrooms are only for customers who have purchased something, then make it clear that rule applies to everyone.
If an employee is truly a racist, they are not going to be swayed by some anti-bias training session that Starbucks is going to hold. All Starbucks has to say these are the company rules and if you do not follow them, you will be terminated. They should also be clear to those who come into their stores if a purchase is required to be able to hangout.
7
Unfortunatey, black americans get ‘’terminated’’ all the time, following
the rules. It’s all over the news, everywhere!
I see several comments here stating that the two gentlemen brought the arrest on themselves by not complying with the policemen's demand that they leave. I would ask those commenters this; if you yourself were simply sitting in a Starbuck's waiting for a friend, and a staff member approached you and asked that you buy something or leave, would you have not protested? Would you not have felt somewhat insulted and pushed back? Would you not have protested and asked to speak to a manager? I have no doubt in my mind that many of you would not only have refused, but you would have also told that staff member to take a flying leap. So ask yourself, if everyone is truly equal in America, why is it that YOU can refuse to leave, but these men should not have?
When black people talk about white privilege, and white people scoff, this is the privilege in question.
25
Why is it nowhere cited in the article what these men do? I heard they are students and / or real estate brokers. Curious oversight on the part of NYT to neglect to mention their occuptations.
7
What difference would that make?
8
Why? What does it matter? The manager of the store didn’t know what they did when she called the police two minutes after they arrived. Their business partner arrived as the cops where handcuffing them. Yeah, a real licensed real estate professional arrived to meet with them. A successful one even who had contacts with city official that he called to notify of the treatment these two men received.
9
"...approximately two minutes after the men entered the store 911 was called...."
Two minutes????!!! That is ridiculous on so many levels!!! I don't think hanging out in a business for two minutes constitutes loitering.
17
Not to worry, in the coming years, your Starbucks barista will be a robotic arm.
5
We've heard from everyone except the Starbucks manager. I want to hear her POV.
8
What people are failing to realize is they were waiting for a third person to hold a business meeting at which time they possibly would’ve eventually ordered something which is exactly why Starbucks wants to be known as a place people can leisurely hang out. It’s part of the business model. It’s not trespassing according to their own executive chairman. Also, if the employee treated them with respect it is far more likely they would’ve purchased something, that is customer service 101.
14
I suggest going to Panera to meet. Much friendlier and more seating.
5
How do 911 records indicate what time they arrived at the Starbucks?
7
Even if you order coffee and sat there, there is always an expectation that you will make FAIR USE of the premises, and not sit there forever.
Apparently, the employee PERCEIVED A THREAT when these two guys would not order and would not leave. That was consistent with Starbucks policy of involving police.
The fired employee has a wrongful dismissal case and she must sue Starbucks for every penny Schultz makes.
5
“Perceive a threat”, i.e. scary black people. You must always “perceive a threat” in the presence of two black men. (Why can racists never see the racism in their comments?!)
14
And the Philadelphia cops weren't aware that Starbucks is as they used to say on radio-"where the elite meet to eat"? I regularly use the men's room when I'm in NYC. Guess being a white older guy makes all the difference. I've often wanted to order a cup of Joe but there were no seats available. So sitting while Black is no longer acceptable without a laptop and nursing a tall cup for hours.
9
What America serves up as race relations simply does not pass muster and neither does most of its coffee.
There is something seriously wrong when, as reported in the NY Times, a fine looking young African American school boy who becomes lost on his way to school is shot at by a home owner after knocking on their front door to ask for directions or when two African American men go to a hangout like Starbucks and cannot choose the timing of when they order without then being subject to police abuse.
It would appear fortunate they were not also shot to death as happens too frequently to African Americans during police traffic stops.
Successful societies work on a currency of mutual respect and understanding.
A very scarce commodity in the USA it would appear.
15
I'm always happy to see a Starbucks, so I can go in and use the bathroom. Never knew I had to buy something! Why would I do that? Their prices are crazy! Oh, that's right, you only have to buy something if you're black?
13
Umm, maybe in Cambridge, but not in most cities. White and this is a standard policy of all Starbucks I frequent.
1) What was the crime?
2) You can arrest without it?
3) When Police arrived, why didn't Manager just tell them
to leave.(still wrong, but better)
4) On what basis did Police arrest?
5) Starbucks Training tip of iceberg........
2
Trespassing IS a crime. Refusing to leave someone else's property when asked to do so IS a crime.
3
1. Refusing a police direction to move on
2. I'm not sure what this question means
3. The manager asked them to move on and they refused, two police asked them to move on and they refused, four policemen asked them to move on or they would be arrested. They refused and they were arrested.
4. Refusal to move on because they had been asked to leave private property by the manager and then by police. No one has the right to occupy private property if asked to leave by whoever is in charge of that property.
5. Starbucks training is not relevant. The police made the decision to arrest not the Starbucks manager.
2
So meeting up at Starbuck's is "Trespassing" Now? Go it......
2
if it was your friend, or your teenager, you would tell them simply: next time, buy something. Simple.
8
The police recordings do not prove at all that the men were asked to leave after two minutes. Nothing like it. The manager said hat they were there for fifteen minutes. Who is telling the truth here? On top of that the men argued with the first two police officers who arrived for seven minutes.
How long should they be allowed to ignore directions to move on and take up police time before they are arrested ?
9
I wish I had been there. I would have simply ordered for them or put my tray down at their table I know it sounds like part of the problem. But think who else might have risen, from their seats, by this example to consolidate as a group of people connected only by the love of coffee and camaraderie. Really, who better to speak out than caffeinated friendly people?
By the way, the second thing I would have done would be to introduce my presumptuous self to what look like a couple of smart ambitious men. People really need to come together. look each other in the eye and do the civil thing.
9
A tip for anybody who uses coffee shops to hang out or use the restroom: Buy the cheapest item in there. Sometimes it's string cheese or apple juice. I buy one of those and then I hang out for a couple of hours.
It sounds like the Starbucks employee could have communicated better. If there's a problem, explain rather than call the police.
11
In Philadelphia this sort of feeling runs right under the surface. And often right on top of it.
13
"Rules are rules" he says. But If I don't like them I can ignore them without consequence or scream racial discrimination if someone tries to enforce them. ????? Sorry, this has been much ado about nothing.
10
I have done the same as them, so many times I cannot even count. I have never had a manager approach me, and certainly not the police! And yes, I am white.
9
Applying "rules" to people of color and not applied to white folks is, in fact, racial discrimination. And nothing about this story has ever suggested that anyone "screamed." The video shows quiet, compliant Black men, likely fearing they won't even make it to the station alive -- that's what happens to Black men in the hands of police, every day in the USA. This is much ado about something very important and these men should be congratulated for giving us all an opportunity to learn what insults and disdain others among us live with day in and day out.
6
Huh? Say it again? Much ado about nothing? Unless I’ve misread your comment Tom, you are not part of the problem. You are the problem. How insensitive of you to minimize being thrown out of a coffee shop, heck anywhere, because you are black. These two guys cooperated with the police 100%. They were in the Starbucks just a very few minutes when cops entered in response to a call from the store manager. They put no resistance. None. Nada. They end up in a patrol car having done nothing to provoke anyone in the coffee shop. That’s much ado about nothing?
I think the Police acted just as they should have, save for the lack of explanation to Nelson and Robinson. But the manager needs sensitivity training. Don’t treat anyone like they’re below you, like they are “just black guys”. They are human beings. And I’ll tell you from the store video I saw, Nelson and Robinson are fine young men. Period.
10
Shutting down for a day is just a Starbucks PR prank. The real issue here is the profiling of black men in all areas of civic life in this country. It’s wrong, and everybody knows it. But to just claim “racism” without reference to the fact of the very disproportionate rates of crime and other sociopathic behaviors by black men is analogous to saying that women have an absolute right to abortion without any consideration of the very real moral issues involved. The Times also has an issue of journalistic integrity when it so obviously sides with a single perception of an incident and willfully ignores contemporaneous perspectives from those involved, for example, the manager and other customers. Much of the Times reportage on racism and sexism provides more heat than light. The Times is in a position to promote critical thinking but refuses to do so because it panders to its customer base by setting itself up to be the voice of (leftist) reason.
9
Cold eye: You get nomination for comment of the day.
If not for that video...none of this would have come out.
And I'm wondering, what if the third person that showed up also was black?? He would have been arrested too I think. He had not purchased anything and was in the store.
14
I had the same thought -- especially since he vocally protested the fact that they were being cuffed and arrested. The fact that the police totally gave him a pass for that says a lot!
8
A better solution for Starbucks is to toss out EVERYONE who is taking up a table without ordering and/or has finished their small coffee hours ago but still working at that laptop. I'm talking about YOU Mr. Wanna-be-screenwriter and YOU lady-who-just-needed-a-glass-of-water and YOU table of four with only one person having actually paid for something.
Then I, as an actual paying customer, can finally find a place to sit. Thank you all very much.
39
Why does a manager of Starbucks not have the right to ask non paying customers to leave the store who are sitting down and taking up space without ordering their products?. Starbucks is just caving in due to fear of a social media backlash. I guess now anyone can just walk into a Starbucks, sit down and meet up with friends, go the the washroom, use up Starbucks toilet paper, flush their toilet a few times increasing their water bill, use up some hand soap and paper towel and then take up a table that could be used by a customer buying and consuming their products. Starbucks (which I'm no fan of) presents itself as a meeting place with the idea that people buy their products and enjoy them while meeting up. I would never have the nerve to do what these two men did.
23
I suspect you are being deliberately obtuse. Starbucks says on its website that its cafes are a place for people to chat, hangout, work etc for an unlimited time period. It is silent on whether a purchase should be made first. There was no prominently -posted policy in the Philadelphia cafe stating that a purchase must be made in order to remain in the cafe or use the restroom. White people have come forward to say they remain in that particular Starbucks for hours without purchasing anything. So what is the non racist reason for insisting two black people leave for doing the same thing white people do?
21
I do it all the time when meeting with people either socially or for work/volunteer. I am white and have NEVER been turned down for using the bathroom before a purchase. Ever. Never given any kind of negative response. So, yeah, Starbucks regularly grants those privileges to many.
11
You are being disingenuous, because I have followed comments on this story and plenty of white people posted in saying they were denied access to the bathroom at Starbucks until they purchased something.
1
The Starbucks in my area is full of freeloading hipsters, heads buried in their MacBooks. Yet these black guys get tossed after two minutes? Something doesn't add up. Retail managers have operational guidelines designed to make the job as easy as possible so workers can be paid as little as possible The media should publish these in entirety. That would go a long way to determining if this purely on store management or Starbucks corporate is writing bias into policy. I get the sense it's the latter.
16
Why are so many readers, who have no first hand knowledge of the Starbucks incident and who have not spoken to any of the witnesses or persons involved, insistent on taking the position that Starbucks did nothing wrong? Wake up and smell the coffee, y'all! The company's own CEO, Kevin Johnson, admits that the men were mistreated. Case closed. And hats off to Mr. Johnson for taking the position that the Star-bucks stop here.
33
I see people who sit around Starbucks and Panera for hours working on their laptops with maybe a cold coffee a few hours old. Why were these guys thrown out in 2 minutes? One reading only.
The cops are totally disingenuous saying they don’t know the culture of Starbucks (where folks gather for meeting others). Shame on them - as if they don’t go there themselves??
24
I think the psychological schema that framed the situation and defined the presence of the men for the manager was "non-customer asking to use the restroom" rather than "customers waiting for rest of group to show up." As I understand it, the man comes in and asks to use the restroom. He's told that it's for customers only. What would you expect the man to do? Either to leave and find a restroom elsewhere, or to buy something so as to become a customer and thus become eligible to use the restroom. Why? Because the problem that this man is presenting is that he needs to use the restroom, which typically has some urgency associated with it. Instead, what do he and his friend do? They occupy a table and decline to order anything. Thus, it would seem to me, the manager sees them as looking for trouble. A rational person who is in that situation--it might have appeared to the manager--would solve the problem. So maybe he didn't need to use the restroom after all, the manager might think. OK, so what are they here for? They're not ordering anything.
The article doesn't say that the men explained to the manager that they were there not only to use the restroom, but as potential customers waiting for the rest of their group. Did they?
If it had been me, and I had been refused, and then sat down, and then not ordered anything when asked: I could understand why the manager might be a little confused. And I could see how the manager might think that I was loitering.
12
I don't feel its exaggeration when these two men felt fear for their lives, because you know how things have worked in the recent years with POC especially Black mean law enforcement. Act first, think/prove later.
Had they been defensive or even in the slightest raised a voice the aftermath would've been different.Let's be real about that.
Amid all this chaos,not a peep from the employee, who escalated this non-situation and I'm still wondering, did she face any repercussions, did she get fired?I would like to hear from Starbucks what actions they took and educating people of bias in nowadays just doesn't cut it.
So...Starbucks WHAT repercussions did this employee face?
6
The employee did nothing wrong. The cops did nothing wrong. They men were asked to either become customers (order something) or leave. They chose to not order anything, and they refused to leave. Sounds like trespassers to me.
18
So next time you take longer than a few minutes to wait for a friend or order at a cafe or restaurant, you, too, should be removed for trespassing. Yes, that makes so much sense.
14
You do not have to order food or drink to occupy a table or use the restroom in Starbucks. The Company Policy attempts to provide “a meeting place” atmosphere. Obviously, they want everyone to spend their money in Starbucks. But a store occupant is not required to buy anything.
What is a store manager to do when faced with paying customers having no where to sit? I don’t know what guidance managers have been provided by Starbucks Corporate.
5
If store manager asked me to buy something or leave, I would.
To refuse to buy and to refuse to leave seems perfectly justified in having the store call the cops to escort me out.
14
Ridiculous! When have you ever been forced to order at a cafe or restaurant when waiting for someone! Never! This was ridiculous, and Starbucks and the police are both reviewing there policies in light of this poorly executed, if not illegal, action.
7
Refused to leave? They told the mismanager that they were waiting to meet someone, for which they could have been waiting until that person got there before ordering... which happens all of the time, every day, in every Starbucks on the planet!
7
I don't understand the practice of holding business meetings in public places where anyone is privy to the conversation. Why didn't the parties concerned do as the Federal Security Service of the Russian Federation suggested to Drumpf during his stay in Russia in 2013 and get a room?
3
A lot of people work freelance. Coffee shops are business meeting places for many people.
4
Howard Schultz created this problem. He created this mess, and now it is his responsibility to fix it. Own it, Howard Schultz. Clarity is the operative word here.
Can you sit at a table without ordering anything?
Can you use the bathroom without purchasing anything?
Can you use the electrical outlets in the store without purchasing anything?
How long can one sit at a table with just one cup of coffee?
Do you have to spend a certain amount in the store every hour that you sit there?
Clarity is very important.
The nation is paying for Starbucks lack of clarity.
Running a business in a grey zone is irresponsible.
12
Very true.
4
I routinely go to Starbucks with my computer. Sometimes I buy something, sometimes I don't. I went into one in a Cincinnati urban area. It had limited comfy chair seating. An older black man dapperly dressed was in one. He invited me to seat in the other, that he was waiting for someone. I said I was good, that I needed to use my mouse.
The manager went over to him to ask about why he was there. The man remained, and his friend joined him while he talked.
Maybe in some urban areas, a business has to monitor its traffic and make sure it is not just a hang out place which reduces sales. But the managers better be savvy enough to distinguish between hanger outs and customers.
I normally don't react to news stories as there is usually more behind the story. Maybe there is to this one, but I don't think so.
6
While I've always found Starbucks to be very racist, maybe not as bad as Denny's, but still very anti black; I think that these situations could easily be diffused with a little better communication on the loiterers and Starbucks manager. "Hey we're here for a business meeting" prior to the cops being called probably would have done it. Also regardless of whether Starbucks or Panera are set up to encourage lingering I am also very respectful that they are businesses that need to generate revenues - whether its required or not a small purchase of bread or coffee seems more than appropriate in exchange for use of the facility.
5
They told her they were waiting for a friend. Why should they have to explain what they were doing when a White lady was allowed to use the bathroom without paying and another sat in the cafe for TWO hours and didn't buy anything. The police were called after TWO minutes because they didn't order in a timely enough manner for the manager.
They didn't say they were going to buy anything...that's kind of key. just saying "I'm waiting for a friend" isn't relevant...
Thankfully, these two men behaved calmly when police arrived keeping the situation from ending much worse.
How to prevent a recurrence?
First, find out what triggered a call to the police within two minutes of their entrance?
How did they enter, what did they do or not do?
Unfortunately, these are tough times where even well meaning police can end up shooting an innocent man because something in his hand looked like a weapon.
Though these look like nice men, something threw the Starbucks clerk off. Something looked dangerous to him.
Second, and this is key, I believe clear communication can defuse a fearful situation.
Did they offer a positive friendly attitude and explanatory words when addressed?
I suggest listening to what the clerk is saying to them. Smile, say we'll order something when our friend arrives for our business meeting. Don't scare him. Don't say you brought your own water, you're fine, and dismiss him. Reassure him in his language. Don't ask for the bathroom right away. It's a business, after all. That's a big no no in many states. Fit in, look approachable and safe. And speak up in a soft friendly voice explaining and calming the situation. And why not order a coffee or accept the water the clerk offered?
Not assigning blame here, but teaching good clear communication on all sides can help bridge the gap so cool heads can prevail.
Good luck!
1
"Don't scare him"? Are you serious? "Fit in"? "Look approachable and safe"? And you're not assigning blame? Yes, indeed, you are. If you're still not sure about that, take a moment please and consider how many times in a Starbucks, or any other public space, you and other people who look like you, have had to tailor your behavior to "make sure you didn't scare people". Only in America, folks, only in America.
16
Oh, your reply is patronizing and full of the bias that so many people do not see in themselves. If these were two white guys, would you give the same advice? Please self reflect, please.
17
"Don't scare him." "Reassure him in his own language." What does this mean?
5
Wouldn't have been a problem for #1and #4.
I’m white, live in Philly and once sat in a Starbucks (not that one but close by) with another white person and talked for an hour without ordering a drink or food. No one seemed to care. Certainly no one called the police.
23
Did you try to use the bathroom? That is the point.
A White lady used the bathroom without buying anything that day at that Starbucks. That's the point.
1
I've had many meetings at Starbucks where I didn't order anything. I can't remember whether others meeting with me ordered, but it's Starbucks policy to encourage meetings. There aren't any rules about ordering that I know of. In fact, I'm surprised that a Starbucks employee approached the men, as the baristas are completely occupied behind the counter in any Starbucks I've visited. This seems like unusual attention to me.
13
The manager having time in a Starbucks to notice this is proof these men were profiled. Come on, since when are these places not crazy-busy, especially in a big city?
3
*White man comment disclaimer - I initially dismissed this story until I heard a NPR radio story that same day explaining why Starbucks was deservingly getting called out along with the micro level treatment an average black man receives daily in this country. Additionally, judicial precedence have given companies more power than ever before in regards to their involvement in public/civic issues, so again brings up issues regarding companies public policies changing/falling short when it affects profits.
- NPR Joel Rose "For years, Starbucks has described its stores as a "third space" — a quasi-public place, away from home or the office, where anyone is welcome to hang out.
But the rules about that space are murky. They can vary from place to place, and even store to store. The way the rules are enforced isn't always consistent, either, which is how unconscious bias and discrimination can creep in. Starbucks endorses its self like a pseudo public space and which they endorse
60
Starbucks' new marketing campaign: "Order immediately or get out!"
Pretty stupid, right? Exactly.
12
Yes, I'm sure they wanted to be called out for politely waiting for their friend and business meeting, needing to use the restroom, and then arrested. Does that make any sense? No, it doesn't.
And your comment has nothing to do with my point, which is in fact supported by the Starbucks CEO.
6
Why couldn't they just order something?
4
I always wait until my friend or colleague arrives before I order. Manners and respect.
12
They could have. But had they done that the discrimination that they were subjected to would never have come out. They are kind of Rosa Parks in a way. And they followed Gandhi's principle of protesting the non violent way. Two awesome gentlemen.
4
suspicion of trespassing - wow
6
I really can't imagine this happening in any Starbucks I've frequented, and I've been in many, including the original one in Seattle.
This sounds like they had a manager with an acute lack of good judgement, and hopefully they can either train that person in the art of being a human being, or let the person go to work for an organization more closely aligned with that person's (apparent) beliefs, like the KKK.
10
I sit and wait at tables for informal meetings with work associates at least once per month - and have never EVER been asked to get up or asked to leave.
Starbucks CEO Kevin Johnson said that what happened was "wrong."
Our country has battled a devastating scourge of black men imprisoned at rates far higher than white men - and here your company had two professional black men arrested TWO MINUTES after sitting down to wait for a work meeting?! No, sir, "wrong" is not nearly the right word.
This is all kinds of rotten and unconscionable and racist.
Let's write that on a coffee cup.
17
For every commenter and troll who said the men should've just bought a cup of coffee or defused the situation in some other way-this happened within TWO MINUTES!! If I could write TWO MINUTES in larger, bold, italicized, and underlined font, I would. TWO MINUTES!!
And if you are meeting someone, whether it's for work or social, you should never get in line and order something before that person arrives. It is RUDE.
14
More than once in my somewhat long, white-privileged life I've gone into fast food places, including Starbucks, and flat out said I want to buy something but I need to use your restroom is that okay. They didn't bat an eye. Also I've on occasion gone straight in and used the restroom and come to buy something, again nobody said anything. This incident reeks of racism, and we should stop making excuses for the way it was handled.
24
Two things need to stop happening: 1. People being judged by the color of their skin. 2. People believing you're going to be killed by the police because of the color of their skin, and that it's common. Here's the math:
2,197,140 black arrests divided by 223 fatal police shootings = 1 police killing per 9,850 arrests for blacks
5,753,212 white and Hispanic arrests divided by 636 fatal police shootings = 1 killing per 9,050 arrests for whites and Hispanics
I say this because the two black individuals said they were scared they may be killed. From a USA Today story: Robinson said he thought about his loved ones and how the afternoon had taken such a turn as he was taken to jail. Nelson wondered if he’d make it home alive. “Anytime I’m encountered by cops, I can honestly say it’s a thought that runs through my mind,” Nelson said. “You never know what’s going to happen.”
Shooting Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings-2017/
FBI Data arrests:
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-2015/tables/...
9
Really, these cops didn't know that people wait for other people and sometimes linger at coffee houses? C'mon man.
This same Commissioner originally said that officers are duty bound to arrest anyone if a business calls and asks them to. Oh?
This was simple racism, enabled by cops. It is shameful, but small wonder in a country whose presideng is openly encouraging bigotry.
15
When the gentlemen refused to leave they were trespassing. If the business still wants them removed the police have little choice.
2
I am curious and nothing I have read touches on this. Were there any other black people in the Starbucks at the time? Or is this some white only store?
1
As I understand it, the neighborhood it's in is one where the "norm" is white and middle class, so to the manager they could have looked "out of place". Still no excuse.
Whether Starbucks enforces their store policies (which are like most store policies) in a biased way is a legitimate question (albeit unsubstantiated by this anecdote standing alone). But how could people POSSIBLY criticize the police in this instance?!? They are called by store management that has asked two (non) customers to leave (rightly or wrongly) and so they are trespassers. Management wants them removed. The police politely asked the two to leave THREE times and get (rude) refusals to leave. They then professionally do their job and take the only course of action left open to them. And this is national news in liberal media. I hear a lot about "white privilege"; apparently it is "black privilege" to ignore police officers lawful demands (or resist arrest in other situations) because they do not feel like complying but then somehow be the victim. [outside the NYT filtered bubble, comments on the free internet are about 90% the opposite way they are in here on this]
3
That's a good point. They did accept my comment above about how the likelihood of "bad outcomes" with the police are almost exactly the same for blacks and whites. But in the NY Times you would think the whole world is "liberal." I'm liberal, but I'm tired of the bias.
2
I can’t imagine being treated like this at a cafe. By your reasoning, black folks have to submit to inappropriate enforcement of non-rules, just to avoid problems. Really? Who EVER sees patrons taken out by the police for a delayed order. Who would have thought that was an option!? Your reply shows a complete lack of perspective. So now, at any establishment, we have to order quickly for fear of being hand-cuffed? How many times have you told a waitress you are not ready or order, or you are waiting for someone! So if black, you think they should order more quickly to avoid conflict. Yes, this should be news. Absolutely! Both Starbucks and police have admitted their errors. So, yes, a very valid story indeed!
7
To people who have said, "why not just get a drink?" Or, "maybe they actually lashed out at the manager but the reporters didn't get that part."
This is classic victim blaming. Why didn't they do this? Why didn't they do that? "If only they had responded better then the police wouldn't have arrested them," is said by white people after nearly every racially motivated incident where a minority person is the victim. If only they had gotten their headlight fixed, if only they hadn't been wearing a hoody, if only they had been more polite to the officer. If only they had been perfect for their entire lives then they wouldn't have been arrested, assaulted, shot. It's their fault.
Anyone who doesn't understand why this is wrong needs to seriously educate themselves because they are part of the problem. And until you can recognize that white privilege exists, even if you wish it didn't, then you will only allow this type of behavior to continue.
15
“If only they had been perfect for their entire lives then they wouldn't have been arrested, assaulted, shot. It's their fault.“
And these are standards victim-blamers would never, ever be able to live up to. But they insist that non-whites do so to even be regarded as human.
1
Calling the cops because these young black men were waiting on a friend? That's not the right way to deal with things.
The Starbucks two blocks from my house is filled with the same white people on their laptops getting free internet for hours on end, each and every week day. They are not buying coffee every hour, and nobody asks them to leave.
5
I used to camp out at Starbucks all the time without ordering, never a problem. Oh, and I'm white...
17
I shop for books at Goodwill. The store has recently begun locking the restrooms because local drunks used the facilities to relieve themselves. Afterwards, they would very aggressively pester shoppers for "bus fare". None of these drunks were black or brown, so "racial profiling" may be an extreme interpretation in this case. On the other hand, improved communication would have helped, especially before calling the police.
1
Sorry, you aren't entitled to just hang out at retail sales locations. I am all for integration and black lives matter, but cut this place a break. They are just being media targeted because they have non-disciminatory policies.
3
It's a coffee shop, people hang out getting free internet without ordering anything all the time. This should not have happened.
4
Actually you are entitled to just hang out at a Starbucks according to its website and past statements made by its executives. You might want to check the Starbucks website and google "third places" to see how Starbucks has positioned its cafes in the market. According to Starbucks' own policies, these men were neither trespassing nor loitering.
6
“You aren’t entitled to just hang out at retail sales locations” Ummm, have you looked around a bookstore before? Seen teenagers hanging out at the mall? Have you ever window shopped knowing that you really aren’t going to buy anything?
6
Look at those men. Normal, non-threatening, good-looking young guys of the type you'd find in any college or business. In the absence of a disturbance, how could anyone be alarmed by their presence in a coffee shop?
Oh yeah. They're black.
15
Shame on the police chief, a black man no less making excuses for ignorant police officers. Please sue the city of Philadelphia and Starbucks because sensitivity training is not going to change years of racial animus. As for the SB manager, you can’t cure stupid can you?
3
I am imagining how terrified I would feel if two police handcuffed me and led me away for really doing nothing. Just sitting in a coffee shop. Absolutely terrifying. In that moment you are completely vulnerable and helpless. Can you rely on the people nearby to speak up on your behalf? Probably not. People think that as soon as police put cuffs on you you MUST be tainted with guilt somehow. Didn't ANYONE speak on behalf of these two men in the moment? Appalling.
10
Actually, the man who was there to meet them -- a white, middle aged male -- can be seen right there in the video, during the cuffing, persistently asking the police why they are being arrested "just for meeting me". The police officers didn't care. They were there to do the bidding of the manager and get those men off the premises.
5
I believe that Starbucks has a policy that anyone can use the bathroom. This resulted from problems that occurred in a Manhattan Starbucks. I've also often seen people linger in Starbucks stores and I myself have done so without buying anything... and without being challenged. The only concern might be if there was very little seating available. In that case a diplomatic request might make sense and, if approached with respect and friendliness, would result in no ill will. What was between the lines in this encounter was very likely quite a bit shy of respect and friendliness.
3
I'm surprised there's been no hint nor mention at all of any financial settlement between Starbucks and these two seriously mistreated men, who deserve big $$$. And how is it possible --and even legal--not be told what you're being "escorted out" or being arrested for? it seems as the police too would be subject to civil suit for false arrest. I completely trust these men, but something still seems amiss or unexplained in this story.
And the manager has been terminated from Starbucks, or just transferred, i.e. "no longer working there?" And, when does her book version come out?
4
Just 10 days ago my counterparts & I conducted a full business meeting in a casual chain restaurant that rhymes with Banera. I used the restroom & walked out without buying single thing. I’m a minority female & do not understand the complete shakedown these gentlemen got. Unable to be explained.
15
Gucci, I suspect that someone in your business party DID purchase something...I am surprised at the number of comments from people who 'use the facilities' of a coffee shop without purchasing anything. These are businesses, not public parks or restrooms. I frequently travel, and if I need a bathroom, I find a McDonald's, buy a coffee, and use the facilities. As Thomas Paine said: "Common sense isn't."
5
Nope. Nice try.
We sat. Met. And all walked out. A White man, a Black woman & two Asians in the quartet.
As salespeople, we do it all the time. As do many others.
2
If the purpose of leadership and management is to create and promulgate a corporate culture then Starbucks has failed badly. And frankly just another apology won't cut it. There needs to be real accountability. Not only should the store manager be fired but manager in charge of that and other stores in the area should be fired as well as clearly, they were not doing their job. I hope these guys sue for millions. Sorry just doesn't cut it anymore.
6
Store manager has been let go and Starbucks is shutting over 8,000 stores for sensitivity training.
1
What happened to the men was wrong, and does indicate racial bias. At the same time, it all could have been avoided by buying a cup of coffee. Or leaving when asked. I can't fathom the arrogance of not leaving a store when one has been asked to leave because of not buying anything. There are no heroes in this story.
25
I partially much agree with you, but I feel that if they were white they probably wouldn't have been treated that way. Just sayin'...
Arrogance??! Seriously??? Did you ever think that, just maybe, they were waiting for the man they were meeting so that they could all order coffee TOGETHER?? I'm from Seattle, where you don't have to walk two steps to find a coffee shop, and I have meetings there all the time. I almost always wait for the other person to get there before I order--it's just polite. I've never been asked to leave, or to buy a coffee while I'm waiting. But then again, I'm white.
I’ve met people at restaurants and cafes many times without ordering until the rest of the group arrives. This is part of basic restaurant hospitality and most people never think about. They’d only been there a few minutes in. Maybe they would have ordered if scared little manager called the cops, because she’d never seen black men in her store before and didn’t know what to do with herself.
5
The issue is not a racial problem as many are trying to make it.
Many commenters acknowledge that many cafes such as Starbucks have a 'customers use only' policy, mainly to keep out the homeless, who drive legitimate paying customers away.
The Phila councilmen and women made hay of this, but it was their own colleagues in the Phila Police dept who made the arrests!
If these Phila councilmen and women really wanted to solve the real problem of the restrictive bathroom use policy at Starbucks, the government needs to address and spend money on the homeless problem. The city should not expect Starbucks, the libraries and B&N, etc, to be homeless day care centers, free of charge. It is easier to attack Starbucks and reflexively claim racism, that is much more sensation than doing the hard work to make Phila more livable, by caring better for the homeless, so that Starbucks, the libraries and B&N, etc do not have to serve as their day care centers.
17
These men weren't homeless and weren't driving any customers away. Your comment is not pertinent.
2
Homelessness has nothing to do with this. These men were not homeless--they were there for a business meeting, just like the thousands of other people who go to Starbucks and other coffee shops every day for just that purpose. Why are you twisting yourself into a pretzel to avoid the fact that this was racism, pure and simple?
3
The men arrested are't homeless. Your comment certainly points to an important issue but it is not the one in which we are talking about here, which is the treatment of two people who were doing exactly what thousands upon thousands of white people do in Starbucks around the world. If there is a "no bathroom or hanging out unless purchasing food" policy, that needs to be made clear by the business. Starbucks has not made that policy clear, therefore the two men arrested were targeted for their race. Therefore, this is a racial issue.
4
Starbucks is doing what corporations do when caught in the spotlight-controlling the narrative. As far as the anti-bias training goes, good luck with that. Look at the number of commenters saying that if these men had only bought a cup of coffee, this wouldn't have happened to them. This nonsense narrative is contrary to the previous Starbucks CEO saying he wanted Starbucks to be the "third place" for people to come and hang and be a community.
There is much less focus on the egregious acts of the Philadelphia police-from the incorrect narrative given by the 911 operator to the police department to the actions of the police officers, whose actions were initially defended by the chief of police. Those officers had the discretion not to arrest, and they opted not to do so. I'll bet if those men were white, they would not have been arrested. Now because of these actions, two men that never had any interactions with the criminal justice system are now part of this system. Even though the charges have been dropped (or not filed) these men can never answer the question "Have you ever been arrested?" on a job application with "No." Their arrest will never go away. They have been fingerprinted and their prints recorded with who knows how many law enforcement agencies. All because they did what millions of people do on a regular basis-went to Starbucks for a meeting.
23
A few years ago my friend and I went to the Starbucks near the Maine Art Museum in Portland. We had to wait in line to get the key to the restroom and my friend whispered to me that something had to be ordered beforehand. Well, the drink had of course cooled down first. It seemed that many customers just hung around all the time with one drink and there were not enough chairs and tables. This place did not have a good feeling at all and I never ever returned there.
1
The 911 call from the 'manager" shows that the lady said "the two people were refusing to order or to leave". That is not shopping while black. That is lingering while black.
Starbucks is a private company, and cannot be expected to have its tables occupied by people who are not "shopping" at the store.
I don't know why Schultz apologized.
Having said so, I do not know that Starbucks has any signs clearly stating that the premises are meant for paying customers and others may be considered trespassing.
Can we get the statements from the manager who has been 'fired' from her job?
11
Obviously, you've never been to a Starbucks. People linger in there for hours. In fact, according to a witness she was in the Starbucks that day for two hours and never bought anything. Another White lady was allowed to use the restroom without making a purchase first. Lastly, they told her they were waiting for a friend. She called the police TWO MINUTES after they arrived.
11
It sounds like the clerk and the police both went overboard here. I really doubt that this was a situation where the police should have been called, unless the men were actively refusing to leave after being told to order something or depart or had caused a physical disturbance. Inwould be angry in their shoes, but I don’t hang out in restaurants without at least buying a drink. They should have ordered something or said they would order when their friend arrived, whatever the circumstance was. I also suspect the anti bias training will backfire, as forced training of that sort often does. Some will resent it, others will think it’s a waste of time, a minority will buy into it. And everyone will suffer through it and know better than to say anything out loud about what they really think.
3
Well, after training, at least the bigots won't have the excuse of saying they didn't know any better. There is that.
6
I would say a set of clear expectations would be of more use than the anti bias training. Perhaps every staffer should be told that people are allowed to sit in the restaurant without ordering for hours and use the restrooms if that is the case and the police are not to be called unless there is theft or violence or an accident in the parking lot. Maybe the company policy should be hung on the wall at all 8,000 odd Starbucks. Anti bias training, according to the last Harvard study I saw, is ineffective and may result in the opposite result of what they want.
2
I thought restaurants could control their premises and restrict their use to paying customers. When did Starbucks become a public space?
14
Sure they can. If they want to bar non-paying customers they can absolutely do that. If they want to bar only non-paying customers who are blacks, well, then that's a problem, and that seems to be what happened here.
11
Starbucks has always been open to folks sitting and using the internet. Many people who work remote, and loose their home connections, will go to Starbucks to work. It's not a public space, but usually acts like one. Even so, what would inspire a manager to call the cops after two customers clearly stated that they were waiting for someone? What would inspire a store manager to call the cops because someone asked to use the restroom? I'll give you three guesses, and the first two don't count.
11
When they advertise as such
8
this weekend im going into my local starbucks and sit and not order anything. if millions of us did this all across the country managment might get the message.
6
OK, and what would that message be? That you can take up space from paying customers? That you ignore a request of the private business to leave so that paying customers can have a table and actually order.
5
This was not an emergency and should never have gone through the 911 system. "Trespassing" is not an emergency when there is no harm or threat being done to person or property. Whoever placed that call should be charged with abusing the 911 system.
To be clear, I don't believe the men were actually trespassing. But even if they were, calling 911 instead of the non-emergency number for the police predisposed the responding officers to assume there was an actual threat.
22
You'd think that if the two men explained that they were simply waiting for someone, that would have put the issue to rest. It's common to arrive at a restaurant or cafe and wait for your friend to arrive, without being hassled to order something. All I can say is this never would have happened in New York, where people have manners, and don't freak out over small things. I'm continually amazed at the backwardness of Philadelphia in comparison.
8
Something we should also be talking about:
Here's the transcript of the Starbucks manager's call:
"Hi, I have two gentlemen at my café that are refusing to make a purchase or leave."
Here's what the dispatcher said in the call to the police:
“We’ve got a disturbance there. A group of males refusing to leave.”
The dispatcher escalated the incident by changing "two gentlemen" to "a group of males". And the use of the word "disturbance" is a concern, too, since "disturbing the peace" is a charge often used by police to arrest people for being simply loud or bothersome.
So the police arrive at the scene ready to confront a "group of males" causing "a disturbance."
There's no doubt the manager was in the wrong. But the police arrived ready for a confrontation, thanks to the dispatcher's alteration of the complaint.
93
I agree, but I also suspect that "gentlemen" was code for "black men" and that the dispatcher escalated the incident with the purpose of saving the Starbucks manager from some sort of imaginary violence. (Look at how many commenters on this very article have taken the tack of saying "these two gentlemen should have ordered", etc.)
2
You make a good point. When are we going to hold accountable the callers who exaggerate the situations for the Police to overreact such as in this situation?
1
What is funny is that Starbucks is embarking on this elaborate training thing which is going to cost them tens of millions of dollars. What they don't understand is that they are only addressing the symptoms, not the cause. What about the new employee who joins Starbucks on May 30. Uh-oh. That person has missed the training! And what if there is massive churn within Starbucks and many that received this training leave over a few months. Uh-oh again.
Which is why they must focus on addressing the cause. The root cause of this is that people learn this stuff as they are growing up. They learn this in the confines of their families, their communities, to treat certain people differently. Instead, if Starbucks poured all this money into thinking of ways to, and then addressing the root cause it might lead to real solid change.
2
The people who continue to say things along the lines of, "Well, the men just should have ordered a coffee when the manager asked" are missing the point.
The point is that if they were white they would not have had to.
Count me as one of the many, many white people who have sat many, many times in Starbucks (and bars, and cafes, and restaurants) waiting for someone without ordering, and I have literally *not one time in 40 years of life ever* been asked if I was going to order something.
Most importantly - it has never even crossed my mind during any of these waits that if I failed to order something within 2 minutes (!) of arrival I would end up in JAIL. For sitting and waiting for a colleague or friend.
We have two standards of treatment in this country: one that I and others with pale skin enjoy, and another for everyone else.
And that, folks, is the problem.
749
"The point is that if they were white they would not have had to."
I have to disagree, as I once witnessed a similar scene at the local coffee shop: my good friend was on bar, and a customer walked in (white guy, middle aged, MacBook Pro), sat down, and started working on his computer. My friend politely told him "the tables are for customers only: what can I get started for you?". No response. He then said, a bit louder and more aggressively, "what can I get started for you?". Customer replies "oh, I am just checking my email". My friend replies "again, the tables are for customers only; you need to buy a drink or leave". Customer replies "FINE!!!", got up and stormed out. The next step would have been exactly that: calling the police and having the customer removed from the premises.
Nobody is above the law.
6
Aaron, Wow! This is the reason there are race problems in the U.S. To call these two black men thugs is just another word for the N word.
I have gone into a Starbucks waiting for my sister and was never told to leave because I have not ordered anything.
6
What planet are you on Aaron? Thugs wearing sweats? I've never heard of that before... Maybe in Orange County there are thugs in sneakers but here in Philly most of us are wearing leggings and sweats 24/7. So you need to change your "dressed like thugs" and "acted like thugs" to what you really mean, which is "they have brown skin". Embrace your racism, Aaron!
8
Food service establishments like Starbucks should operate under a benefit of the doubt principle. If two people walk in, have a seat, and are not bothering anyone, assume that there is a good reason why they are there unless a problem arises.
On the other hand, it is a common courtesy for guests who come into an establishment to say "hey, we are having meeting in a little bit. Mind if we just sit here and wait until the other person arrives. In the meantime, could I use your restroom?"
I'm not sure what happened in this case, but a failure to communicate seems to be part of the problem here. Maybe this could have been avoided by people just talking politely to one another? It seems like everyone involved took an adversarial stance on some level.
10
Starbucks does operate under a benefit of the doubt principle. What happened here is that blacks were looked at differently.
6
I live in Astoria, New York City and people of all stripes constantly come in and out of Starbucks to meet people- whether or not they are ordering something first. I personally go to the register and buy something if I am doing that, but the point is, scores of white people do it without ever being approached by store management. The fact that this happened within the space of two minutes speaks to the immediate discomfort-- and yes, quite racist response-- shown by that store employee, as well as the cops.
59
Yes good and you know what else would make sure this doesnt happen again, if the albeit small but persistent number of black males that do actually commit crime and cause problems in Center City would start behaving differently. Unfortunately these two men who may really have been doing nothing wrong were victims of guilt by association. But it is not crazy for anyone to assume they might have been doing something illegal. People have short memories wasnt it in the same area a couple years back that Philly was plagued with flash mobs and other random violence, perpetrated yes unfortunately by black males. It is not all racist fear and fantasy, there is a reason black males come under stricter scrutiny. For that to end the black male community will have to take a long hard look at itself to determine how they might change those perceptions.
11
NO, what you are saying IS CRAZY!! Black men if you are reading this, I suggest you patronize places that are not afraid of the way you look and see so many of you, that we know you don't all look alike and you don't all act alike. Go places where you will not be judged simply because you share a skin tone of the scary Black guy on the news last night....wow.
2
White men tend to shoot up schools, movie theaters and churches. I'm guessing you're a white male, so I guess you'd be okay with the police arresting you anytime you set foot in a school, movie theater or church? Because, as you say, "it is not crazy for anyone to assume they might have been doing something illegal."
4
And how do we change the perception that young white men with AL15s are mass murderers?
All anyone would have to do is look at the men and speak to them and it would be clear that they were not going to attack anyone.
3
The Police Officers should be fired. They behaved so much like Boston Cops the resemblance is uncanny. I hope the young men file law suits against everyone concerned.
5
Boston cops are some of the best cops around. You are lucky you live there.
2
First of all, Starbucks is America’s restroom. Secondly, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been in a Starbucks when I couldn’t get a seat because people have ‘set up shop’ with our without a drink or food order. The treatment of these men and the overt racism are disgusting.
43
"Starbucks is America’s restroom." LOL. Finally someone tells it like it is. I'm a middle-aged lady whose bladder is not always perfectly reliable and when I see a Starbucks I think, "Whew, there's a bathroom." It would be quite a bummer if I had to fear I'd be arrested as a result. This is what black people's lives are like.
3
Don't worry. It will happen again. And a few hours of Starbuck's on-the-job-training isn't go to change a thing or make much of a difference.
That said, looking at the bright side -- at least these two young Black men weren't shot by the police.
6
so.. they shouldn't shut down 8000 stores to re-train and re-educate their workforce ? I think that is also the bright side... that the company is interested in learning from this occurrence and changing.
Good grief. What is it with this country and a disturbing number of its people's obsession with others' use of toilets?!
When I enter a place of business that has a bathroom, I use it BEFORE shopping or ordering. I want to be comfortable while shopping, eating, or drinking. I stay longer and buy more. I return to businesses that have bathrooms.
The "you gotta buy something immediately" commenters seem to have the process exactly backwards. I won't wait until after paying. I won't carry a cartload of paid merchandise into the bathroom. I won't take food and drink into the bathroom. I won't eat or drink with dirty hands.
I also sometimes leave a store after using the bathroom without buying anything if it turns out they don't have what I came for. I also sometimes wait at a table or bar after using the bathroom until the rest of my party arrives. I've always been accommodated.
I'm no fool. I get why using the bathroom before and waiting for my party to arrive works for me and why it doesn't work for the two men in Philadelphia. And I'm deeply embarrassed to superficially resemble those commenters who think what happened in that Starbucks was right or just a misunderstanding.
53
Applause!! Someone else speaking sanity. I understand not everyone has my bladder, but quite often, upon arrival at my destination, it's a matter I need to take care of BEFORE I can shop, or consider ordering food and drink.
3
In this whole story, as with many others, what amazes me to no end, is the fact that regardless of EVERYBODY knowing that in this day and age we ALL are on Candid Camera, that our actions in public can make us famous or INfamous worldwide in the push of a button, the temptation to engage in one's worst instincts is so compelling that people do it anyways, risking their reputations and employment. The fleeting pleasure of spiting somebody one despises for their physical characteristics is really worth THAT?!?! Astonishing...
2
It is sad that this happen. What I can say that as a 64 year old black man this did not just start happening. I was taught by my parents to make sure to use manners at all times. One of the saving graces for these young men is that they did not lose it. They kept calm. I would suggest they have there next meeting at a library. Race relations are not getting better under the trump administration. Here is a question for you, How many Starbucks are in black neighborhoods?
11
Very few, because they want their customers to be able to afford their product.
Thank you for your perspective. And that is an absolutely fair question for Starbucks to answer.
1
I (light hair, light eyes, female) have used Starbucks for the bathroom countless times, buying nothing. No one has ever, not once, so much as looked at me sideways. There are lots of comments here about how its not a public space (arguable... free wifi? couches? community bulletin boards?), they "should" have bought something, etc. Maybe so.
But to be ARRESTED? For taking a pee, for waiting for the friend to arrive for a meeting? Can anyone in a million years see this happening to two white women in yoga pants? God help us.
Black men of America, I am so sorry about what you have to go through. I stand with you.
126
But if they had left when the police requested, they would not have been arrested.
1
Well then Barbie I hope the exact same thing happens to you the next time you go in a coffee shop. I hope you enjoy being arrested, handcuffed in public for doing nothing wrong at all. I truly wish it on you. Perhaps you would then be able to understand that other people have feelings too - it's usually something taught in kindergarten.
4
Sorry, but we don’t live in a police state. If we did, maybe black people would still be steering clear of certain lunch counters, bus seats and water fountains.
I'd point out that it is believable that the two men did not buy a coffee because the person they were meeting had planned to buy the coffee.
I myself, have on more than one occasion been invited to meet someone at a coffee shop who's intent it was to "take me out for coffee" and gotten there first. If the other person is offering to buy the coffee, I am not going to get it myself before they arrive.
It's just ridiculous that it all has to be parsed out this way!!
12
It is my understanding that it is a Starbucks policy, that the use of restrooms is for paying customers. In fact I stopped in a Starbucks in Hollywood FL. a few months ago and was told if I wanted to use the restroom I needed to buy something.
I do not think the news media should sensationalize this type of issue without substantial investigative research. I see is no proof that Starbucks nor the store manager was racial in its business practices.
11
Except these two gentlemen were there NOT to use the restroom but rather to meet a friend/business associate.
The media is not sensationalizing the issue, the manager and police sure did, though! If you cannot see how the event was indeed racial, then you are part of the problem with your willful blindness.
5
Rod, the difference is: have you ever been arrested for simply waiting for another friend to show up? I have not. But hey, I'm white. What about you?
4
The fact is that many white customers , myself included, have used the Starbucks bathrooms without buying anything.
3
As a police officer for 17 1/2y years with the NYPD, the police did nothing wrong. They received a 911 about two men refusing to leave business. When the officers asked the gentlemen to leave several times, they refused. What were the police supposed to do? Leave? The police didn't know about Starbucks policy.
The employee was wrong but also the gentlemen were wrong too. Once a police officer asks you do something, you do it or you will face the consequences. Plain and simple.
122
This is the kind of mentality that is problematic. Just because you are an officer doesn't mean you should tell people to leave a business without engaging them or explaining why you are 'removing' them. Using handcuffs and arresting them was ridiculous.
26
I do agree that it's best to do whatever the cops tell you to do. However I think these cops should have exercised better judgement: This was not a fast moving or dangerous scene. Police officers in this situation should make an effort to understand and defuse the situation. I've seen NYPD officers do this a lot! It's better for the entire community. Talking to the manager to understand just how serious (or unserious) the circumstances are and giving a chance for the two parties to come to an understanding. I wonder how those two cops feel now? I'm sure they were embarrassed to have to cuff these peaceful citizens just because the store manger said to. The cops have brains and free will as well!
13
Police LIVE in Starbucks so they know the policy. Also, witnesses told them they had done NOTHING wrong. Also, the dispatcher lied about the call. The manager said they were not ordering and refused to leave ( which was a lie- they were not asked to leave- they were asked if they need anything- they said no they were waiting for a friend- she called the police within two minutes) . The dispatcher reported they were a group of men causing a disturbance. There was no disturbance. And you don't have to obey an unlawful order.
21
If I were meeting someone at a coffee shop, I'd wait for them to arrive and then order the coffee. It's only polite.
If I needed the restroom in the meantime, I wouldn't expect any hassle.
I certainly wouldn't expect the police to be called right away just because of that. That would be ridiculous.
And I would never imagine that the police would go straight to ordering me to leave, arresting me, and taking me away in handcuffs. That would be completely ludicrous.
Yes, it's nice to live in the practical certainty that I'll never be treated like that.
12
This is not about Starbucks, the manager, the employee or the police. This is about this country's pervasive racial bias plain and simple. Had the two gentlemen been well dressed white individual, the stereotype image of someone waiting to have a business meeting, nobody would have asked them to leave let alone call the police to arrest them. a sad state of things in 2018... but then again, it is 2018 and we have a racially biased president supported by people who obviously share his prejudices.
9
I’ve never been in a Starbucks where I got served in less than 20 mins! These guys got 2 min service?
Yeah right... even if they’d ordered, the server probably would have been in a hurry to usher them out the second they were served.
2
To those saying
these men should've ordered something, or
businesses have the right to ask non-payers to leave:
What does your sense of fairness say about the fact that thousands of people have done exactly what these men did but were not told to leave and were not reported to police? Is it possible in your mind that these men were discriminated against?
9
The way you two or anyone can ensure "this does not happen again" is for you to ORDER AND BUY something while at Starbucks and while waiting for your "business partner" to arrive.
The tables at Starbucks are not tables you can use at Bryant Park.
12
Starbuck's corporate policy says "Yes, they are".
1
We all have certain built in biases against folks who may be different. However, looking at these guys they look very main stream and just from the looks are quite clean-cut and preppy as one may say.
So, the manager approaching them immediately and asking them to order something is out of line. There are many folks who would go to a cafe, sit down, relax a moment and then order something and in this case these guys were waiting for their friend / business associate or whatever: they were waiting for a third person.
Certainly they would have ordered something after their friend arrived. What was the rush. This manager simply didn't like these guys for being black and wanted them out. The fact is that the store is branded Starbucks and not her property, so she had no right to have two customers kicked out by official policemen.
My two cents, these two men should SUE Starbucks for the indignity they suffered at the hands of this bigoted manager and the city of Philadelphia for arresting them for no reason. Refusing an illegal order is not a crime, not even in the military. Those police officers illegally ordered them out of a public place. Everyone wants to make it nice. It is beyond that now. The time to be nice was before the arrest and before the police ever were called. Now, it is time for punishment and then reconciliation. Starbucks want to clean house... very good, but better pay these men for the distress you caused them.
3
The Philadelphia police commissioner must think his force comprises the least aware (or most caffeine averse) people in the world, since "He also suggested that the officers may have been unaware that Starbucks, which has more than 8,000 stores nationwide, presents itself as a meeting place where people can linger."
2
My wife would be arrested every time she visits Starbucks as she takes more than two minutes to decide what to order. The men should not have been approached by staff who may have just wanted to show the men who was boss. The police should not have been called. The police should have left the scene 30 seconds after arrival as this was not a police matter. Handcuffs, arrest, booking should not have taken place. No white person would have been handled this way by staff or police. This is America, every day, every hour, year after year. When people deny white privilege they should think about this incident.
11
It happened in two minutes? Wow. I had the impression that they had been there a while. Two minutes to tell them to leave and call the police is racism, pure and simple.
7
We literally have no way of knowing it was two minutes. How in the world would the "dispatcher call" tell us that.
Starbucks in NYC: EVERYONE knows that you can go in and use their bathrooms without making a purchase. My wife taught me that much years
ago. Further, I have "loitered" in many a Starbuck's for hours without making a purchase of any sort. (I do buy items at Starbuck's from time to time, but mostly they serve as meeting places/convenient bathroom stops). Over the years not once has any Starbuck's employee approached me in any way to ask me to buy or to leave the premises. I'm white.
What occured in Philadelphia should never have happened. Starbuck's, at least, fired the employee in question.
This story is all about the racial intolerance of the Starbuck's employee who decided on his own to call the police
5
"The manager approached, asked them if they wanted to order drinks. They declined."
There's a word for people like this, whether they be black, white, or Asian: schnorrer. That is Yiddish for sponger or mooch. I don't go into Starbucks or coffee shops unless I am going to order something. In New York City, there's a big problem with old people taking over tables in various McDonald's for hours at a time, playing cards with their cronies but not buying anything. Hit the bricks, freeloaders! I don't care what color your skin is: if you want to sit at a table, pony up.
13
They were there for two minutes and the friend arrived as they were being arrested. The point is no white person would ever have been asked to leave or arrested. B
1
The police commissioner said his cops might have known that Starbucks allows people to meet and linger? Isn't one of the requirements to become a Philadelphia police officer that the applicant should not be from another planet?
2
I'm a retired black police officer. Once when I was dining with friends of color at a very expensive restaurant, I noticed that when it came time for me to pay the bill that a suspicious "service fee" had been added to my bill. I asked for the manager. I strongly, but calmly objected, and let the manager know that I was going to file a formal complaint with the proper local agency which could investigate, and fine the restaurant. The restaurant manager removed the "service fee" from my bill, and apologized faster than a NY minute. I knew how to take the proper legal action to immediately get management's attention. The Starbucks incident, which reeks of racial discrimination, is a teachable moment for potential public victims, and the police. Potential civilian victims need to learn how to file a legal discrimination complaint. In this case, if the police, and the Philadelphia police chief had been better educated on dealing with disturbances involving discrimination, the police would have advised the two complainants of their right to file a complaint with the Philadelphia Commission on Human Relations (PCHR) for discrimination in public accommodations. The PCHR like other major urban areas has a website dedicated to educating the public on just how to file such formal complaints of unlawful discrimination. If police were better educated on such matters they might have avoided the arresting option.
369
I sympathize, but its hard to see how being asked to leave when you didnt order anything is discrimination under the law.
3
Thank you for your informes and thoughtful response!
3
You are -- or were -- a cop, but you made out like a bandit.
There is nothing discriminatory about a service fee or service charge in a restaurant. Here is the Wiktionary definition:
Noun
service charge (plural service charges)
* An amount added to a bill in a restaurant, or other similar establishment, which is normally paid to the waiter or waitress.
*A fee charged for a service, typically to cover administration or processing costs.
In my experience, restaurants have asked for service fees or charges when the number of guests exceeded a particular number -- 6 or so. The theory seems to be that larger groups are less likely to give customary tips (safety in numbers?).
In any case, I strongly advise you, for the good of your soul, to go back to that restaurant, apologize for your behavior and offer to pay the service fee.
The fact that the manager backed off proves nothing -- except that he (or she) was terrified of negative publicity and shaming. Even if the restaurant had the charge dismissed, it would lose. Look at what happened to Starbucks.
6
So, we have an article that tells what happened at this particular Starbucks from the viewpoint of the two men. How about the story of the Starbucks employee who has since quit or been fired? What is her race? I have yet to seen a news story that said she was white which I'm sure would have been noted if she was. So many love to comment about whites profiling black men, but what about non-whites, including black females, who do the same? Are they all racists too even if they share the same skin color?
10
Why make all these inferences and assumptions simply because you are lacking a bit of information? Get the facts before speaking: easily done by an internet search. Yes, the manager is white.
Over the years I have probably been involved in hundreds of meetings that have taken place in coffee shops or cafes. I would not dream of not buying a drink, and almost always as soon as I enter. And I can not recall a person I was meeting with not doing the same. Its widely accepted as the minimal contribution for using the space.
27
What if the site was chosen by the person who wasn't there yet and the two people waiting didn't want to or couldn't consume what the place had on offer? I'm careful about what I eat and drink and I frequently have trouble finding a compromise a those chain franchises let alone something I actually want.
2
I am a 71year old white woman. I have used many Starbucks bathrooms over the years. Sometimes I walked in, used the bathroom and left. Sometimes, I came out of the bathroom, waited for a friend and ordered after my friend arrived. I have never been questioned, stopped, or given a dirty look. I don't feel quilty about using a Starbucks toilet without buying anything. It's a public place. If you had an older woman's bladder, you'd understand. But why shouldn't a young black man be treated with the same respect accorded an older white woman.
3
I always buy something as well but out of respect to my friend or colleague, I wait for them to arrive. Nothing unusual here.
1
A complete and total lack of common sense. First, by the Starbucks employee. But, ESPECIALLY by the Police. No matter how they try to spin it, those Cops were acting as private security, for a bubblehead. Period.
DO BETTER. Please.
21
The impulses that led to the harassment of these two gentlemen do indeed appear to be racist. But to hold your ground and not comply to the extent you are eventually arrested is just stupid.
Step outside, wait for your meeting to arrive, go back inside and shove it in Starbucks’ face.
But to wind up in handcuffs? Didn’t need to be. It was clear which way the wind was blowing, and right or wrong, the situation could have been diffused. Instead, we have endless video hits, Starbucks singing mea culpa because let’s face it what choice do they have, and one-sided accusations -- no one dare question whether there might be two sides to this or some other middle ground to attain. You’re asking to be crucified if you do.
9
Yes. Black people should understand that the rules are different for them.
This event is a Rorschach test. Fill in the blank:
What if two ______ men tried to use the bathroom in Starbucks and were then removed by police after they sat without ordering anything? Would you be outraged? Who is to blame?
1. White
2. Black
3. Middle Eastern
4. Wealthy
5. Homeless
6
Interesting to read all the white people who are bending over backwards trying to justify the ridiculous racist actions of the manager and overreaction of the police. Give it up and maybe admit, for once, what it really was. Maybe you might even try changing your perspective. Don't worry, you'll still be on top.
30
I feel Iike I’m living in a country that has gone bonkers or at the very least in a country where it’s media, corporate leaders and academia have gone bonkers.
How the heck is this racism? Being politely asked to buy something at an establishment in order to use their restroom & sit in their furniture is not racism. Shame on Starbuck’s leadership for throwing their workers under the bus. Their behavior of these men was atrocious, it is they that created this scene no one else.
22
Black people should accept the fact that the rules are different for them.
1
Simple. It's racism because in thousands of Starbuck's across the country, and tens of thousands of meetings in Starbuck's over the years - where nothing at all has been purchased - this has never happened to any white people. Simple.
1
How the heck is this racism? Really?
It's racism when two black men are the only people singled out and arrested -- arrested! -- and spend 8 hours waiting in jail, just for doing what white people do 1,000 times a day all over the country in every Starbucks in existence, which is sit on the furniture and use the restroom and talk to people you want to do business with.
All that was needed was for the manager to (a) let the men use the bathroom, on the assumption that they are planning to be customers, as is done all the time; (b) ask them politely whether they are ordering now or waiting for someone, and accept their answer, also on the assumption that they are planning to be customers; and (c) treat them like (gasp) everybody else. Not doing so because they are black men is racism. Period.
2
The story tells us that according to 911 records the police were called two minutes after the two entered Starbucks. If that's true then this is just a question of whether only certain people can be considered undesirable because of the color of their skin.
21
Why should the employee be fired? He doesn’t set policy-management does. Either this is a store policy or a corporate policy and they should pay the consequences not the worker
11
Yes, the employee should be fired. Living in the U.S. means you should know some basic rules, both legal and human, about racial equality. If the manager told the employee to ask the 2 men to leave, the employee should have refused to do so and reported the manager.
4
Presumably the point is that it IS NOT store or company policy.
And how do you know the employee was a "he"?
1
The employee intentionally misinterpreted company policy in order to kick black people out. I'd fire this person too - only I wouldn't have waited as long as Starbuck's did. These racists are bad for business!
1
The Starbucks in Bradenton Florida, allows college students to get together and do their homework, without buying anything. Real estate deals are done and interviews for work take place. I don't think anyone believes you have to buy anything to sit at a Starbucks and use your computer.
27
I can't imagine why any Starbucks would pay rent and utilities to allow freeloaders to hang out. In any case, just because one Starbucks does that, doesn't obligate all Starbucks to do so.
7
They were only waiting for their friend for two minutes—two minutes—before the cops were called. None of the white people who were waiting were asked to leave or arrested.
1
Please ask yourself one question. Why then is Starbucks is in business?
2
We know that the manager of the store acted totally wrong; but, the cops should have laughed at her with the idea that they should have to remove men from a restaurant for not ordering coffee as a precondition to use the bathrooms. So, I am not sure who acted more foolishly and more sadly. I hope these two men are able to get on with their careers and realize great success, which they, like so many others, seek, at a business meeting in a coffee house.
26
As a consultant with no physical office, I "loiter" at Starbucks and other cafes all the time. That is where meetings with clients and partners take place. It is not arrogance that has me, and people like me, sit in these places waiting for and meeting people, it is the cafes' business model. What happened to these men is 100% wrong.
27
I think its a bad thing, of course. I also know almost every store in NYC has the same unqwritten Policy. LA, Philly, Chcago, same thing. Been there, done thaqt. As the deil's advocate here, yes, it's wrong. However, maqny people buy 1 coffee and sit there all day, like it's a library.
5
Buy a cup of coffee or, in the least, make it known that your intention is buy coffee as soon as your guest arrive. Keep your language clean. What would your mother think of your language? Do your best to comply immediately with police. Stand outside the venue until your guests arrive. Taking umbrage at every perceived slight is a move in the wrong direction - nearly always.
The manager's purview in a Starbucks is wide and difficult. Help them out. Cooperate.
16
Why do you assume the men used bad language? Witnesses do not support that theory. And they did cooperate. The manager never actually asked them to leave the store.
2
Hi JuliaNM, Thank you for your response. A rendition I read had two witnesses reporting that the manager had been cussed (cussed was the word used by the reporter). I did not see that in every rendition, only one. I shall try to find the url for you. Several renditions I read also state that the men were trespassing. They were reported as being uncooperative. It appears we cannot agree upon the facts. I hope we can agree upon my advice to avoid umbrage at every simple perceived slight. There is far too much thin skin out there compounded with far too much attitude. I would prefer for us to become kinder and gentler to one another. How about you?
3
None of this makes sense, unless the two men said something aggressive to the manager upon being denied use of the bathroom. Replay the reported events in your mind. Now, imagine they said something nasty when denied use. Now, everything else makes sense. granted, my scenario is hypothetical, because we don't know, but my version (in which the two men say something aggressive) makes complete sense.
If these two men cursed the manager, everything else makes complete sense, as it went down.
Nobody, as far as I know, has asked one single question about the verbal exchange between them and the manager. Interviewers seem to be avoiding the topic.
7
This is part of the discriminatory narrative whenever an incident involves minorities but especially with black men: that there MUST have been something else to the story because white people are always reasonable and are never racist, right? White people are always trying to justify their ignorant, prejudicial behavior.
4
Ayla,
I don't think people under 60 are all that racist anymore. At least, not in the Northeast.
I think most people are idiots and chumps, regardless of race. I assume that people (any race) do whatever they can do to get ahead and that they react badly to being told "no." I don't have a bad sense of blacks. I have a bad sense of humans. I work on Wall Street. I think everybody is corrupt, self-serving, and slippery.
1
The men did not curse the manager. They politely explained that they were waiting for a friend.
1
Video viewed more than 11 million times on Twitter? Wish it had been viewed/seen at least 325 million times via other media and social media. Wish it sets off a seismic ripple effect, a tsunamic teaching moment of biblical proportions. We all know that the arrests and similar incidents far more grievous take place and have taken place. No one got hurt, thank the gods. [Once at a department meeting campus security was called to remove a IT staff member from the meeting to keep him from disclosing embarrassing news about the censuring of the department's internet access because of "offensive" content on the department server. That too was a scary moment.]
2
The manager is at fault. Thought so from the beginning and the more and more I read, the more and more its confirmed. Not too impressed that the police couldn't have diffused this situation once all the facts were available.
8
While it's appalling that the police were called and these men arrested for nothing, they should have known that you can just sit at a table ANYWHERE and use the restroom but not order anything...if they were Caucasians, the staff would have ask ed them to leave (but sans calling the cops).
1
But if they had been caucasian, and this had happened, it never would have made the news.
6
On many occasions I have sat in coffee shops and waited for friends. I have used bathrooms without buying anything. NO ONE has EVER said a word to me. I am a middle aged white woman. It is racial bias.
1
There were white people waiting and they were not asked to leave.
2
These two young men, Mr. Robinson and Mr. Nelson, are so wonderful, so high-minded and serious and intelligent, that I am full of admiration for them. As for the Starbucks employee and the Philadelphia police, I am appalled and disgusted by their responses. Shame, Shame, Shame. They need a lot more than retraining. -- Grateful thanks to the customer who took the video and the other customers who tried to intervene. This is a shameful episode, and the victims of it are its moral heroes.
15
This is a story about wage slaves confronting loiters.
The wage slave should know better. You are replaceable. Don't get involved, if you need your job. Do not call the police unless a gun is drawn or a knife is pulled out. The PC Police will rip you up and destroy you. It's a no win situation. It's a catch-22. Your supervisor could very well admonish you for letting non-paying customers sit at a table, but having the PC Police after you is much worse. Take the hit and move on.
8
Oh please. The men explained that they were waiting for a friend. They were waiting two minutes. Two minutes before she called the cops.
1
It's great that Starbucks has apologized and is going to do a training, but there are other problems with Starbucks. My suggestion is to never patronize Starbucks unless you happen to live in Seattle --- and always always always support locally-owned establishments.
2
I am a frequent visitor of starbucks. Sometimes I go there, wait for 10-15 min for my friends to arrive before we order. I have seen plenty of people doing just that tourists or local including white folks using wifi, reading books, studying without ordering anything. When I heard this news I was shocked as I knew it isn't typical of starbucks.
Every other non-Starbuck cafe I visit, I order something before I sit down. But starbucks is different and has always been. Their model is to encourage people to come hangout, meet, study, use wifi, have professional meetings etc. People commenting here can not compare their experiences to starbucks if you haven't been to one.
203
“Initially, as soon as they approached us, they just said we have to leave,” Mr. Nelson said. “There was no question of, you know, was there a problem here between you guys and the manager?”
Why would there be a problem? Think about it. The person who approached them was trying to intervene, because there WAS a problem, because the two men said something nasty to the manager. That's my belief.
Mr Nelson's remark here seems to implicitly admit that there had been some sort of verbal altercation between them and the manager. That's how I read into it. Otherwise, he wouldn't even use the phrase "problem between you guys and the manager."
If the interaction between manager and men had been friendly, a third party working for Starbucks would NOT have come over to the table to intercede or in some sort of ambassadorial way. The person who came to the table (who was not the manager) was trying to defuse a situation, I think. That means there was tension BEFORE the men sat down, which strongly suggests they said something aggressive to the manager.
2
You are REALLY reaching on this one.
4
Witnesses have said the men died nothing wrong. Your assumptions are not based in facts. Would you make the same assumption about a pair of white grandmothers? That's what implicit bias is all about.
2
Agree with Jay Sands. You were reaching the other day, and you're still trying...
i think there is a generational and geographical divide on how commonplace and acceptable it is to sit in a Starbucks, hold a table, plug in a number of devices, enjoy the heat/AC, ride the wifi, meet with people and not be expected, let alone coerced, to directly patronize the business. In city neighborhoods, especially those close to universities, students, professors, entrepreneurs, workers, and commuters use tables at Starbucks like those in a public library. Rarely do staff take inventory on which tables paid on their way in. Far more rarely are police called. This was a routine situation with a very atypical response. It is hardly fair to blame the gents for not ordering before sitting down. I have never actually seen a manager in Starbucks approach a table. I actually didn't even know Starbucks had managers. I only see baristas.
25
Unfortunately the root of this is the fear most whites have of black men. And is that a baseless/irrational fear?
Or Dont the stats reveal that most violent crimes are committed by this group? Surely these two gentlemen know they were targeted because of this.
So Shouldn’t they and BLM also direct their energy/anger towards the high criminal behavior of the fellow men of their race?
It still doesn’t make the actions of the manager or cops right in this case. Looks to be a huge Overreaction.
3
Any time you judge another person by the color of their skin and not the content of their character, or heck, even their behavior in the moment, you are engaging in an act of baseless, irrational judgment. Positive or negative. If you assume white people are mostly good, non-criminal folk, and black people are mostly bad, criminal folk, you are going to make many, many errors in judgment. I cannot believe that I even have to explain this to someone from as diverse a city as New York. Sheesh.
4
No, actually, most violent crimes are committed by whites. https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/topic-p...
Hmm, here is NYC crime imperial data on shootings. Let’s be real and address reality and why this fear keeps occurring.
Maybe this is why the manager was nervous? (It doesn’t make it right, but let’s not kid each other)
"Blacks, though 23 percent of the NYCs population, commit over three-quarters of all shootings. Add in Hispanic shootings, and you account for 98 percent of all shootings in New York. Whites, 34 percent of the city’s population, commit less than 2 percent of all shootings.
Such disparities mean that virtually every time the police are called out on a gun run — i.e., someone has been shot — they’re called to minority neighborhoods on behalf of minority victims, and, if any witness is cooperating, being given a description of a minority suspect."
2
Ridiculous, buy a cup of coffee or something to pay for the space you’re using.
11
Ridiculous. Learn your subject before displaying your racist ignorance. Ever been into a Starbuck's? It seems no -
2
I blame Howard Schultz for this mess.
Not everyone is familiar with Emily Post's etiquette rules.
Consequently, Howard should have a list of rules and conduct posted on the door of every Starbucks. This way everyone knows what is expected of them when they enter Starbucks.
When you expect Starbuck's Wage Slaves to make judgment calls you are asking for trouble.
Clarity is very important.
6
According to the police commissioner in his comments on a video I saw, the two men were asked several times to leave and they refused. The commissioner also claimed that the two men made disparaging comments about the police officers small salaries and about how the officers didn't know what they were getting themselves into. None of this should necessarily result in handcuffing or arrest, but it doesn't set the tone for an amicable interaction.
11
You know what else doesn't "set the tone for an amicable interaction"? Not asking any questions, that's what. The police walked in and told the men they had to leave. No curiosity, just bland acceptance that the manager had the right to have these two men taken out of the store by armed police for not ordering anything within two minutes.
1
That's great but you conveniently skipped over the problem: manager did nothing about all the other non-payers. If you could just show me where she asked every other non-payer to leave and also called cops if they didn't then I will reconsider.
Their friend sure was late for all of this to have transpired - try to use a restroom and have words with a manager. Then go sit down. Wait for manager to approach and make other statements. Wait to get through a 9/11 call as they ask you 20 questions. Wait for the police to get there. Wait for the police to ask several times to leave. Handcuff the guys.
By this point I absolutely shouldn't be anymore, but each time something like this occurs, I am sometimes still amazed by the mental gymnastics some people perform in order to (attempt to?) convince themselves and others that the victims are to blame and that nothing bad actually occurred.
These guys checked all the boxes that the "respectability police" love to cite: They weren't aggressive, they were well-dressed, they were sitting in a coffee shop waiting for a business meeting to begin, and they complied with the police.
Yet to a sizable percentage of the population, this was somehow their fault.
It's beyond disheartening.
474
I didn't know Starbucks was just a "business meeting" place...I really thought it was a restaurant where people at tables were expected to buy food products....what a dummy I must be....OR
Did those men in "sweats and sneakers" actually set out to meet the police and the media hoping for a big "life changing" payday from Starbucks? Hmmmm?
2
They did not comply with the police which is why they were arrested.
I am white and am told day after day that restrooms are for customers only which means some barista at Starbucks calls out my name along with my drink order. Duh.
8
They could've purchased something. I fail to see the mental gymnastics in the binary choice - buy something or leave. I have been asked to buy something in New York to get the bathroom code. So I bought something. That, like this, is a non-story.
4
I have been told by Starbucks employees countless times that the restrooms are only for paying customers. I am not black. However, when told this, I will (a) promptly buy something to use the restroom, or (b) leave to find another restroom. That is what these gentleman should have done.
I agree that calling the police is overreacting, but we don't know the interaction between the employees and these two gentleman. Did they cuss out the worker under their breath when he or she denied them access? Did they otherwise threaten the worker? These gentleman should have left the store when the police were called. They had another opportunity to leave the store when the police told them to.
Anybody commenting on restroom policies and not from a large city should visit a restroom in a large city before commenting. Large city restrooms are generally dirty and smelly because they are abused by the homeless, drug addicts, and others. These gentleman were obviously not that. However, Starbucks has the right to limit bathroom use to paying customers, and should, because otherwise some people will abuse the restrooms to the detriment of paying customers.
Lastly, if anyone is to blame in this situation, it is municipalities that do not offer more public restrooms.
124
You talking about common sense, sir. I would only add that Howard Schultz (the PR King) should have a list of rules of conduct listed on the door of every Starbucks. Clarity is very important.
4
They weren’t there to use the restroom! They were meeting someone! Who knows what they might have eventually ordered if they’d been left alone. Read the coverage for pete’s sake.
14
I think you're missing the point. No one - not the men involved or the readers - are upset because the men couldn't use the bathroom. It's so not about the bathroom.
I also take issue with you filling in the blanks with made up bad behavior to justify an injustice. No offense to you personally, but this is part of the problem, and it works against a solution.
17
Reading these comments I am seeing a lot of people tie themselves in knots to justify the "white side" of this.
Either a lot of people are commenting who don't hang out at Starbucks, or they are totally oblivious to their environment. I vote for the latter - since I do hang out there, and I am very aware of what goes on around me. These gentlemen did nothing out of the ordinary.
The cops overstepped, but in my experience that's the way they behave to everyone - except generally worse with non-whites. Been there, experienced that. Pathetic that all you hear from the police about this is....crickets.
It's clear this was racial bias; two minutes says it all. And I'm white, which should be totally unimportant - but since this is all about racism it becomes key.
432
Ah the white side of it......say no more racist.
Finally!! Someone published how long these men were in the store before the staff decided to call law enforcement. Two minutes? It only took a week for that information to become available. And you are right, that really says it all about what happened. I have worked in the service industry and 2 minutes is not loitering. In that situation it would have been really simple for the staff to simply check the clock and if these guys were still taking up space say 20 minutes later, ask them to wait outside. Seats are for paying customers after all. A little patience and none of this would have happened.
4
I fault the Starbucks manager MUCH more than the police. The manager presumably has the authority to summon police when needed. She used that authority inappropriately against the two guys, who were politely (yes?) arrested.
Police arrest people. The fault lies at least mostly with the manager, IMO.
No doubt there was implicit racism all around, also.
2
I am imagining what could happen to a potential interviewee when I am conducting alumni interviews. I frequently ask candidates to choose a cafe and then assume that they will wait for me there if I am running a couple minutes late. I also assume that I will offer them a drink of their choice when I arrive and purchase a coffee for myself.
This year, most of my interviewees were not white and several interviews took place in Starbucks. I am wondering what I should do should I arrive and find a potential attendee of a well-known university in handcuffs?
95
Order the Woke Fair Trade
1
So, your "well known" university cannot find a space for you to conduct your alumni interviews?
4
You should ask them to buy a small (tall?) cup of coffee while they wait for you, if they don't have the manners or sense to do so.
4
When did Starbucks get servers? I've been to dozens of Starbucks all over the world, and never had anyone ask me what I wanted when seated. You order at the counter, where you either stand around and wait, or find an open table and sit.
It's interesting to note that the Starbucks employee approached these guys within 2 minutes of arriving. Seems questionable why they were ever approached.
There are always people occupying tables with their laptops or tablets that sit for for much longer than it takes to drink a cup of coffee. That's kinda what people do at coffee shops. Sorry people, what happened to these guys was wrong.
200
One man asked to use the bathroom before they sat down and the manager said for customers only. THEN, without making a purchase, they sat down.
2
He asked to use the bathroom? Who does that. I just use the bathroom. They sound very polite.
Let's ask working urban policemen what they are thinking of at times like this, or what they would do if a black man were to take the advice in the article, and "stand up and show your greatness."
Seriously, there must be some law enforcement people here. Trying to see this from the police point of view.
11
It's fair to hold Starbucks accountable however I think the Philadelphia Police Department should also be held to similar account.
113
How many white people have gone into a Starbucks for hours and sat working on their laptops, and used the restroom, gotten a water cup, and only MAYBE spent a couple bucks? How many white people have gone into bookstores, sat in their chairs, looked at their books and magazines, used their restrooms, and never purchased one thing. And how many of those white people would consider what they did trespassing or criminal in any way?
And this story is not just about Starbucks. The Philadelphia Police Department had a true opportunity here to be part of the solution. Instead they went along with the same old routine. There needs to be outrage and a change in the police response to such an incident. The police are not personal security officers for the ignorant, prejudice or racist. They have a responsibility to use their heads and sound judgment and know when a situation does NOT warrant handcuffs.
For the record, I am white, and I know this all needs to stop. More people and institutions need to be part of the solution, and the first step is to recognize there's a problem. Wake up to the problem, so we can all come together for a solution where EVERYONE can enjoy a visit to Starbucks, or the bookstore, or any place.
263
Is it bad that I am glad no one was shot 18 times? That bruised egos and chaffed wrists is the worse these two suffered?
For those that chided the two for not purchasing anything, you have never been ina Starbucks, have you? Indeed there is an issue with people hoarding tables.
But to be asked to leave so soon? Never. To have the police called on you? Are you kidding?
Again, I am just glad these two walked away without any extra holes in their bodies, and that’s probably the saddest thing.
6
Being amazed they werent shot is like being amazed that a tourist visited Israel and didnt get blown up. You need to stop basing your idea of reality on sensationalist headlines. Every day black people have thousands of interactions with police, and while there is certainly bias, the overwhelming majority of them are not shot or harmed in any way.
1
I too have sat and luxuriated in a Barnes and Noble without buying anything. But if someone had asked me to leave, I would have rudely given them a piece of my mind in front of the other customers, and then complied. There is no god-given right to loiter in a private business.
2
I love the comments about how these two guys should have bought something when asked, or before asking to use the restroom. I've had many of meeting with coworkers or clients in Starbucks. Unless we had all arrived at the same time - rare - I waited to order until everyone was present, especially if I planned to treat. More efficient that way. I've also used the bathroom while waiting. Never a problem. And those cops were polite and pathetic at the same time. After the white guy arrived and explained the situation, they should have seen there was no problem, exercised reasonable discretion and left everyone alone. BTW, being" defiant" as the police chief alleges is no crime , and in this case seemed to mean they tried to explain their case. But cops don't like anything but immediate compliance no matter how wrong they may be.
726
being defiant is a crime. i'm pretty sure that failure to obey the police is, indeed, a crime. i believe that in the law books both resisting arrest and resisting police directives are crimes.
i'm stunned that a post that says that defying the police is NOT a crime received over 80 recommendations. it's like saying shoplifting is nota crime, because you oppose capitalism.
5
Different Starbucks have different rules. In order for this incident to be clearly racist we would have to determine that as a norm whites were allowed to sit around without ordering while blacks were not at this particular location. Citing isolated incidents does not indicate there is a clear pattern. You live in Seattle. So do I. I see plenty of blacks loitering in Seattle Starbucks all day without ordering and obviously using it as a homeless shelter.
2
"After the white guy arrived and explained the situation, they should have seen there was no problem," ---- sorry, what?
3
The employee was wrong (and has either been let go and is no longer working for the company or has been reassigned to another store, the article wasn't specific), the men have received an apology, Starbucks is closing it's stores for some kind of training - which certainly is for PR purposes - and will accomplish very little finally. The police certainly could have spoken with the gentlemen and then to the employee and mediated the situation. The police officers are people, they have agency, they have a range of options - conversation always helps, they made a choice as well. This took an employee who's motivation we can only guess at, though seem clear enough and police officers, public servants, who seem to have abdicated any pretense of reasonable engagement with that same public. The gentlemen certainly deserve more than a apology from Starbucks, the employee who decided to call 911 and the Philadelphia Police Department. But then what?
8
What will now change across the country is that Starbucks will post a sign stating that restrooms are for customers only, that tables are for customers only, they will more than likely start the 2-drink minimum that bars do, and you will no longer be able to sit at Starbucks all morning reading the NYT on free wi-fi.
If they do not do that, they will now have to allow EVERYONE to use the restroom which will mean lots of needles in your restroom and homeless people sitting at the table for hours waiting for a friend.
3
Does police body camera footage exist to confirm the police report?
"The police incident report, obtained Tuesday by the Inquirer and Daily News, notes that the two men cursed at the store manager and refused to leave even though officers asked “multiple times.” It also accused the men of insulting police by saying, “Cops don’t know the laws,” and “Y’all make 45G a year,” remarks to which Police Commissioner Richard Ross alluded in his explanation of the events, released in a Facebook video Saturday."
Where is the body camera back up to the report?
9
Only something like 700 officers in this district have body cameras. The officers onsite were not among that number. There is no body camera footage.
Only about 10% of the Philadelphia police force wears body cameras, and these officers were not. However, there is plenty of smartphone video on Youtube in place of body camera footage.
The way the police handled it was at least half of the problem. The two men gave responses that it was evident they were just regular folks meeting there.
26
This was not how the "story" was presented initially. This does not seem like racial bias, per se, since it now appears that this was a scheduled business meeting for which Starbucks has no obligation to host. Usually, if it was formal, you would notify the establishment and they would make allowances, but this does not seem to be the case here. I have no idea how frequently this happens, conducting business meetings in public places rent free, but they really do need to buy something. Maybe not these two men, specifically, but whomever was hosting the meeting should have. The article does not deal with any of these aspects. It just makes it out to be a racially biased encounter, and there doesn't seem to be any basis for that, other than the optics. White police/black men. Doesn't look good for Starbucks, obviously, so training will fix it. Huh?
It really comes down to the fact that the two explained their presence, it was rejected, and they were asked to leave. Apparently, they did not do so. The article makes a statement: "According to 911 records, approximately two minutes after the men entered the store, the police were called." That is not possible to be captured in a 911 call, and it seems, when you try to listen to it, since it is presented as evidence of sorts, it only sounds like the police responded within a couple of minutes of the 911 call. For the NY Times to make an assertion that not only seems wrong but would fuel the fire, so to speak, seems really wrong.
13
Starbucks is the go-to place for business people to meet. I NEVER go into Starbucks during the day without observing business meetings, college sign-ups, realtors and their customers, etc, etc, etc - and students studying everywhere.
43
This is racial discrimination. Not because Starbucks is required to host business meetings, nor because these two gentlemen needed to buy something first.
It’s racial discrimination because Starbucks is routinely used as a neutral place to meet by both paying and non paying individuals. The racial discrimination comes in because some non paying customers (typically Caucasian) are left alone and others (typically dark skinned) are harassed.
It also doesn’t matter whether or not you can point to an example of a white customer that was asked to leave in a similar situation. The fact is a dark skinned individual is more likely to be asked to leave and more likely to have the police called than a light skinned or white individual. That is racism. This form of racism is more likely to be caused by implicit bias instead of explicit racism but it is no less damaging.
3
It is really quite unbelievable how many people are arguing that they had no right to conduct a meeting in a Starbucks. And by that I mean, it is truly unbelievable how many people have apparently never been to a Starbucks.
Literally 99% of the patrons sitting in a Starbucks are there to conduct an informal meeting or to work on a laptop for free wifi for 8 hours. Literally.
11
Something is being skipped over. My understanding is that the police asked them to leave, the two men refused in protest, and that's why they were handcuffed. As I understand it, they were arrested not for being black, but for refusing to obey the police. Am I wrong? If they had left when the police told them to do so, theer would have been no arrest and no handcuffs.
I am not saying that the initial call to 911 wasn't prompted by a fear of blacks. I am saying that the arrest wasn't due to racism. I have seen white protesters carried off by police.
You never disobey the police.
159
Well, that last line is true if you're not a white male and you'll likely be shot or beaten to death if you do. Fortunately, there are people who are not slaves to overreaching authority and will stand up, shout down, and disobey even in the face of militarized police.
6
"You never disobey the police." And they didn't. But, say they had ... how is it any different than the historic lunch counter protests? Or would you consider those orders to leave to be valid police actions as well that should have been obeyed without question?
7
I am white and have been arrested for trespassing during a protest. I was asked to leave, I did not comply, and was promptly handcuffed and taken away. It had nothing to do with the fact that I am gay and suffer discrimination every day in this country because of it.
5
There are two sides to every story. I'd like to hear Starbucks side.
8
I think Starbucks has responded. The two employees who were responsible no longer work for Starbucks.
2
"Two minutes." That says it all, that people of color might not be even given two minutes to wait on ordering for another person to join them before the police are called. And no, not ordering something right away is not a crime (despite the people on these comments boards who seem to think it is). I'm very glad Starbucks is acknowledging this incident and taking steps to ensure a similar incident won't happen again. May we one day live in a country where people of color aren't targeted, harassed, judged and arrested for routine activities white people wouldn't even think two minutes (or seconds) about doing!
34
I am glad Starbucks is making all the accommodations to these aspiring men.
I am closing the lease on my business space at the mall and re-locating to Starbucks "Free Business Space"...I will only need a couple-three table for merchandise and a couple of chairs reserved for my "customers".
"You there...can't you eat and drink standing up so my customer can sit down? Where is that Starbucks manager to help me get your chair?"
2
Starbucks needs to explicitly define what its corporate policy is regarding people who sit at its tables without buying anything: (1) people who sit at their tables are politely asked if they would like see a menu and are allowed a certain "grace period" to decide whether they want to buy anything, or they are expected to soon leave the premises OR (2) it allows anybody to sit at their tables without buying anything for as long as they like. Once they define what their policy is, they need to enforce it across the board and train their employees to abide by the policy without regards to race, gender, etc
36
Advice: Let Howard Schultz kick people out.
Howard makes the rules.
Nobody else should even think of asking anyone to leave Starbucks, especially, if they want to keep their job. This is a PC World, you are either on the bus or off the bus.
Give everyone the passscode to the bathroom.
It's just not worth it.
Clean the bathroom. If you don't like it quit. Simple.
Remember, Howard is looking at the bottom line everyday. When the numbers don't work anymore, Howard will change the rules. Simple. Welcome to Howard's World.
Bob, to add to your list, I also think that Starbucks needs to rethink what it means to be a "third place" after home and office/work. If I'm engrossed in a conversation for hours and the cup of coffee gets cold and is no longer desirable, am I expected to buy another cup? Or, do I continue to live out this idea of a "third place" and just hang out and enjoy?
I am here to tell you: there is no policy. For the better part of six years, I worked with a bunch of (rather unscrupulous) hippie artists who sold art ILLEGALLY (never once had a vendor permit) all up and down the entire Eastern seaboard. From Newbury Street to South Beach, I knew every street scene. We put in 14 hours days, three days a week on average. Could go as high as a dozen sellers per trip. Traveled in an aging van, and packed 100% of our own food. At every street scene in the nation, for six years, for half the week, we used a Starbucks. I probably peed in a Starbucks several thousand times. Ate the food that I brought in from our cooler. Warmed up in their heat in the winter, cooled off in their AC in the summer. But wait. Not only did I never buy anything (I don’t drink coffee and we never wasted money on fast food nor junk food)… we ALL knew Starbucks was the place to go for a FREE cup of hot water to use OUR tea bags in. Dupont Circle. Georgetown. Chinatown. Little Five Points. Buckhead. The downtown mall in Charlottesville. Bourbon Street. Beale Street. And yes, we did it in Rittenhouse Square. No matter how crowded and overwhelmed the barista staff was.. I was literally not ever one single time challenged for sitting all I wanted in a Starbucks while actually MOOCHING off of their corporate bottom line. And we didn’t ever even have a single legit vendor permit. Do I need to tell you we were all white? Starbucks has zero ground to stand on.
4
What a laugh: that "training" can eliminate biases.Every adult should know that such fabrications are not true, but usually lead to some company spending lots of money on such "training"........let us watch without pre-judging......
3
Training lets people - even those who are who are resistant to change - know clearly what the corporate policy is, and the behavior that is expected of them.
Starbucks is invested in their employees behavior. As I once explained to my (step)sons in their teens, you can think anything you like. But once you cay something - or do something - you are accountable. Nobody is complaining about what the employee was thinking. Or about what the police were thinking.
Behaving with more courtesy can lead to more positive exchanges which can lead to a reduction in unfounded bias.
3
Pogo's dead wrong. Judging the outcome as a failure before the effort is the epitome of prejudice and bigotry.
2
Is this you watching without pre-judging?
1
I agree that this got out of control pretty fast. The police should not have cuffed the men, should have been asking questions, should have read them their rights if it came to that, etc. The manager probably should not have called the police.
That said, if you are sitting in a cafe and the staff ask you if you are going to order anything, your choices are to either place an order or leave. Saying "we are having a meeting here" is a complete non-sequitor.
Did they say, "we will order coffee once our friend arrives?" Or did they really insist that they had a right to discuss their own real estate deal at someone else's business, all while opting out of being a customer?
38
They were there for less than two minutes before the police were called. That's not enough time to even take your coat off.
30
Have you ever been to a Starbucks? People literally sit for hours, often without ordering a single thing. Sometimes people are eating food from the OUTSIDE! I frequent Starbucks often. I’ve never, ever heard anyone being confronted about whether or not they are going to order something. In my opinion, this is a case of racial profiling. And, thank goodness these young men kept their cool. They were taken into custody for basically doing nothing.
2
It's not a non-sequitur. It means, "We are meeting someone here who has not yet arrived."
It explains both a. Why they are there.
and
b. Why they've not ordered yet.
These are conclusions that would have been jumped to had these men been white. Instead, other conclusions were jumped to and two minutes later the Police were called.
6
This has been going on for years and sadly, will continue to go on. Slavery/racism is the stain that will never be wiped away from the face of this country. Our white forefathers took America by force from the darker-skinned indigenous peoples who lived here, then brought, again by force, darker-skinned indigenous peoples from other countries to this country to work as slaves, building the infrastructure and the economy. Racism, bigotry, paranoia, fear, hatred all seem to be ingrained in our culture/society. We have much to be ashamed of and I have no idea how we ever move forward.
19
Moving forward would be easier if everyone had the same standards for appropriate behavior or business manners. When I meet with colleagues at a Starbucks, the first person to arrive always orders & takes his order to a table, thus having purchased & securing seating for those who'll come later. If I want to treat, I leave my drink at the table with the others & go place their orders.
How is that hard to figure out?
If the 2 men responded aggressively, tat further complicated the issue. Did they actually say that they were waiting for another's arrival before ordering? That would have sufficed.
2
I can understand why they were booted. Tried to use the restroom without buying drinks and then just sitting there.
21
I've waited a half hour in a Starbucks to meet someone, without ordering, and no one's ever said a word. I've often used the restroom (without asking) before ordering. Just because I need to use the restroom. I don't even think I've ever seen a manager or employee come out from behind the counter to interact with customers. How do you explain that difference in how I'm treated?
148
How were you dressed? What was your appearance or demeanor? Do you think profiling (so-called) based on appearance or behavior is the issue rather than racial prejudice. Who is prejudging white police by the way? They’re not all bad apples.
You obviously didn't read the article
2
Can't remember the last time I walked into an establishment, sat down and didn't order anything.
47
I did it literally two nights ago at a local pub. I arrived a few minutes early, and was waiting for my friend to arrive before I ordered. When the waiter approached, I told him just that, and no one called the cops.
89
As I posed in a previous post, what does being a "third place", which Starbuck has been described as, mean? Does it have the same rules or customs as other business establishments?
Yes, but your pub had a waiter & that's quite standard. Self-serve, no table service establishments operate differently.
2
People are just too ignorant. What the manager did was racist. The police were called without the manager even addressing the men. THATS RACIST...,,period. Or I guess she “feared for her life” Smh
27
Now wonder they called the Caffeine Cops to arrest these terribly scary Starbucks loiterers.
But seriously, it’s great that these guys are speaking out and staying positive, and that Starbucks is doing the right thing that’s way above and beyond what other companies might do
It seems like it was an isolated incident at least in my experience in so many Starbucks stores over the years, by one ignorant bigot.
My impressions are based upon the kind way my severely disabled daughter and I have been treated even when we didn’t buy anything and just hung out for a little while or used the bathrooms.
Starbucks welcomes customers regardless of whether they purchase anything or not and kudos to them for raising the bar with their sensitivity training.
21
Hey Jon, there is video of another black guy being refused the restroom before ordering in CA earlier this year and a white guy coming in right after him and being allowed to use the restroom. It happens more than you think.
4
Do they have lawyers?
Thank you so much for finally clarifying how long Rashon and Donte had been waiting before being asked to leave. Two minutes! Less than some wait times to place an order at Starbucks! I salute and share the general outrage at this event. The video reveals two gracious young men enduring interrogation by several agitated policemen who should not have been called in the first place. Given the mess that America is in right now, it's heartening to see Mr. Robinson and Mr. Nelson have their say. Carry on gentlemen!
295
Sounds as if what we had here is a failure to communicate. I want to know what steps the Philadelphia police are taking to improve their procedures and skills? It seems as if Starbucks is taking all the responsibility here and the Philly police department is shirking theirs. Why no attempt to assess the situation? Just "You have to leave" & BOOM - handcuffs.
51
The critical piece to this puzzle is that when asked the men explained they were there for a meeting, raising the inference that products might be purchased in the near future. Had the meeting been allowed to take place in the coffee shop and, after some time, no products were purchased, the time might have arrived to ask the visitors to buy something or leave.
Starbuck's, like any other commercial establishment, has every right to require those who use its facilities to buy its products. Doing so may make it less appealing and thus hurt its business, which requires a balancing business decision. However, it may not restrict its facilities in a discriminatory fashion.
A coffee shop has a legitimate concern that non-paying visitors who use all or much of the limited available table space may displace paying customers. Nor does it want its rest room to become the de facto public restroom of the area, for similar reasons. Provided these concerns are addressed in a non-discriminatory fashion, the business may determine where on the spectrum of hospitality it prefers from 'customers only' to 'all are welcome'.
The clear inference in this case is that the race of the men was a factor in denying hospitality without a purchase, and that is unacceptable. However, the analysis is more nuanced than much of the discussion suggests.
39
1. The manager called the cops after only 2 minutes on two men who weren't bothering anyone.
2. Video shows several empty seats available for paying patrons.
What nuance am I missing?
107
That's a whole lot of "intellectual hooey"...when a white hipster with a laptop "waiting" bears no muster.
5
That they were black.
1
Starbucks : you owe these men more then firing one server and closing 8,000 stores (for what? An hour) to train your people.
How about inviting entire black communities for free coffee drinks and food once a week for a month or more? Make sure to have only white servers.
Also Time to have police officers trained properly. The police department’s racial bias against blacks is apparent again and again. Time for a huge overhaul in proper respect and regard to all people, not just white people.
Btw I go into the Starbucks on Madison ave and 83 with my grandchildren constantly JUST TO USE THE BATHROOM! I have never been stopped because I’m white and that’s wrong!! Either put a sign up or let everyone in!!
17
Invite black communities once a week for free coffee with white servers?
Is this satire?
21
That's rude. My five dollar latte is buying your free soap, towels and cleaning time. Not to mention the promise I will wait in line for you to come out. Buy the kids a hot chocolate. Exercise some respect. If I leave my Starbucks stops, it will be because by 'business' is not their priority. And your lack of respect is.
6
I no doubt sympathize with these two men, as this would have most likely not occurred if they were white, but at the same time, why not just get a drink as per the rules of a private business? And more to that, if they were having a meeting in Starbucks, shouldn't they have ordered something to use their space/wifi/etc.?
They absolutely shouldn't have been arrested, but I have never in my life thought to go into a private business and use their space without being a paying customer. Is there a problem with race relations in America? Of course. But there is also a problem with entitlement in America as well.
323
People meet personally and professionally at Starbucks all the time without ordering anything. It kind of seems encouraged where I live. When people meet there, even if someone doesn’t buy anything as soon as they walk in, the person they are meeting may. Or after 15 minutes they may get hungry or thirsty and order something.
39
It says that they were there for two minutes before the police were called. If you are meeting someone it is generally more polite to wait for the other party to arrive before ordering.
61
Clearly you don't sympathize. By saying but, you saying forget what I just said and now here comes what I mean. The reason they should not have just bought a drink and complied with the request is because Starbuck's business model invites people to come in and hang out and take advantage of the free wi-fi. I am sure plenty of white people came into the store and did just that. Black Americ should feel a sense of entitlement when wanting to be treated as equals and not seen as less then anyone else.
39
In yesterday's NYT story on this incident commenters went on and on about why these guys didn't just buy a cup of coffee. Also a few commenters said that these men cussed the manager out and she didn't feel safe. I haven't seen that info in any story. These are two professional gentleman waiting for a meeting and if they want to wait a few minutes to order coffee, that is there right. The manager called the police 2 minutes after they arrived. This is blatant racism. Shame on anyone who says otherwise. You need to check yourself.
412
That's the part that gets me too - the timing. I've lost count of how many business meetings I've had at a Starbucks somewhere in this country. Oftentimes, if I get there first, I'll wait until the person I'm meeting gets there so that I can order drinks for both of us. Sometimes that's five minutes, sometimes it's 10 minutes. If these guys really had the police called on them after 3-5 minutes of telling the manager they were waiting for someone, so that is very, very fishy.
108
The Philadelphia Chief of Police is black like these two patrons. A lot of good that did. From Baltimore to Chicago to Sacramento that did not matter either. Black lIves should matter as much as white lives in America. But they don't. No one ever confused Barack Obama as being half-white by biological nature nor all white by cultural nurture.
6
Two minutes. Two. Minutes.
11
In my entire life, which has lasted several decades, I have never, ever been told "restrooms are for customers only" after walking into a restaurant or cafe and asking where the restroom is. That's true even if there's been a sign posted (common in resort towns, I find). When I have left the bathroom, even in resort town restaurant cafe's where a where a sign saying "restrooms for customers only" is posted, I have never had a worker quickly inform me of the policy. I always made my way to the counter and ordered a tea or coffee and that was that.
Could it be my experience was different from that of these two gentlemen because I am blonde haired and blue eyed?
152
Oh I have been told that, and seen signs as well. SLC and its homeless situation.
5
Actually, I have experienced and seen this - in NYC and elswhere . But the issue is what IS the Starbuck policy , if it has any, and were these men treated differently because of their skin color? I think they definitely were.
5
Or looks like you live in the Midwest. It’s standard fare in urban areas that have issues vagrancy.
8
There's always 3 sides to a story, now lets hear the truth.
19
The truth is the cops should have started by saying "so what's going on here."
3
Perhaps it would have been best to order something, especially when asked directly by the manger. I don't frequent their establishments but I'm pretty sure that Starbucks is not a public space and so should not be treated as such.
47
Every time I read about the experience these two men had, I find tears in my eyes. They literally did *nothing* wrong, except be the wrong color (and, arguably, combination of color and gender). As a middle-aged white woman I can't tell you the number of times I've gone into Starbucks, sat down, fiddled with a laptop, checked my phone messages, and then, a few minutes later, got up and gone to the counter to order. Or the number of times I've arranged to meet someone at Starbucks to complete a Craigslist transaction, and never ordered anything at all. (It's a safe, neutral, businesslike space, perfect for that kind of thing.) As a middle-aged white woman I had zero fear -- then or now -- that doing any of these things without walking up to the counter to order something would lead to any kind of confrontation with, or even approach to me by, a manager. I am so glad that their friend came in when he did, and that that other middle aged white woman (yay us, ha ha) took that video and posted it for the world to see. And I am grateful to Starbucks for treating this with real importance, and shutting down their stores a full day for mandatory implicit bias training. Way to step up and show other corporations how anti-bias work is done, Starbucks.
26
I don't frequent Starbucks that often either; but most coffee shops I've seen - including Starbucks - have had people nursing drinks (sometimes for hours) while reading or typing on computers. I have read instances where that "hang out" mentality was cultivated by the corporation.
I used to interview high school students for my college. Those interviews were purposefully at a local coffee shop (so parents wouldn't have concerns) and a good number of the kids were nervous, so we didn't buy anything. I frequently a local coffee shop, but would have done the same thing at the Starbucks around the corner.
Lastly: I have read in multiple places that there were whites in that Starbucks who had been hanging out - and specifically said that. It was only those two gentlemen whom the manager decided needed the police (apparently for being polite enough to ask to use the restroom).
6
Spoken like someone who has never been to Starbucks or had a business meeting where the third person hasn't arrived yet.
8
I believe that it is imperative that all major retail stores should have an emergency number that employees can call when they are faced with a situation that they don't know how to handle. By calling this number they will receive direction on how to best handle the situation.
8
This wouldn't have been a situation if these were two white men meeting a business partner at Starbucks.
5
Apparently, they did have a number: 911. Unfortunately, the operator escalated the situation by mischaracterizing it.
3