"sending messages with sexual connotations to a woman whose feelings were not mutual" Certainly no defense for such actions.
Yet NYC is an even more cold atmosphere for a straight male artist than ever. So just decided to avoid any interaction regarding women other than from a purely financial viewpoint. Kind of a shame because I used to like offering a momentary compliment about items that as a male I don't wear but appreciate. Like how clever her choice of nail polish is, unusual piece of jewelry, clever phrase or information. This is always preceded by her having granted a smile or nod and in a public exchange like store, gallery, charity or such. Not in a work environ or any power trip situation.
Maybe it's what CD calls 'flirting', but way too brief, and both parties know it's just a shared NYC minute - not a pick up at a bar or party.
Now learning to turn off that part of male brain. Sharing isn't caring when the risk is too high. I never ever interacted that way without any sense of the moment being inappropriate; merely a passing moment meant to just acknowledge the humanness of both of us in the big city swirl.
No more. Certainly will improve my bank account at least.
34
Let's forget sex for a moment. This behavior is used to remind the weak of having no power. Isn't this demeaning protocol well established in our culture?
For as long as I remember, without knee-pads on the job, no career. Skip it if you are from a very privileged and well connected family.
Exposure gives back some power to the weak.
31
#Balancetonporc, or “Expose Your Pig”, is not the French counterpart of #MeToo. The French counterpart of #MeToo is #MoiAussi, which predated #Balancetonporc and serves an entirely different purpose. There as here, there is a difference between saying 'this happened to me' and 'this is the name of a man who did something bad to me. There as here, the purpose for which the hashtag #MeToo was created was not leveraging Twitter mobs to attack bad guys -- the Weinstein effect was a fortuitous but uniquely American phenomenon.
Twitter is simply a public billboard on the digital commons, and hashtags are organizational tools guiding users where to pin their posts. In America, #MeToo today is predominantly recognized as the electronic billboard where women pin "Wanted" posters, but in France, "this is my pain from misogyny" is distinct from "this is the mysoginist that needs to bleed". Different hashtags!
17
Flirting involve at least two people. Sexual Harassment involves one person.
Personally, I can forgive the man who decided to introduce me to sexual pleasuring when I was 7 years old. He must have been driven wild by my perfect little sexual allure. I can also forgive the man who was the best and closest friend of my father for pushing me into the corner of the bathroom while he tried to rape me at and during my Dad's 50th birthday party. Had he been sober he might have been able to keep 'it' up long enough to have completed sexual act he alone wanted. The case of the first, my Mom caught him doing the same to my younger sister and he was forever more not invited to our home. The second? He passed out and I left the him lying on the bathroom floor with his pants around his ankles.
My sister wasn't so lucky. She was raped, violently, at 13. She shot herself at 21.
Neither one of us were great beauties like Catherine Deneuve. Neither one of us thought we were sexually attractive because I barely knew what sex was at 20, not having stepped into my sexual awareness until I was 19. Neither one of us thought that men old enough to be our father or even grandfather would have sexual thoughts about silly girls our ages.
The women who signed that letter probably want the men to have the opportunity to apologize and declare they didn't know what they were doing at the time. Ok, give them that. Then, if they ever do any thing salacious again send them to SingSing for life.
93
I agree.
4
Finally, some sane talk for a movement that is still experiencing growing pains and risks being perceived as absolutist. There is tremendous confusion over what exactly #metoo means (is it quid pro quo at work? unwanted flirtation by a superior? a misunderstood touch by a work colleague?). I blame much of this on the east coast media which, in its zeal to report and support a movement, lumps all allegations as to unwanted sexual behavior into vague categories (like "inappropriate conduct") and shames any man for rebutting them (or even speaking). These are frightening times we live in, when facts become subservient to an agenda and people like Franken can be driven out of office with pitchforks. If the #metoo movement is to survive in the long run - and I hope it does - it will need to clarify exactly what is punishable and let the accused speak. And I say this as a gay man with no vested interest in the relations between the sexes.
60
Where one stands in this argument has much to do with whether one feels safe and secure in the context of the gamut of sexual interactions and the degree to which one identifies with the #MeToo stereotyping of male aggressors and passive female victims. Deneuve completely rejects the #MeToo perspective and the #MeToo campaigners can't see beyond the model they are promoting. Somewhere in between, adults can help one another by reflecting on what they can do to ensure the sexually attractive people they interact with feel safe and secure. If one discovers they are using their power to trap, shame, harm, control, degrade, disenfranchise, or stigmatize "the other," a bit more reflection would probably benefit all concerned. That applies equally, regardless of gender or gender preferences.
25
#ImWithThem because you cannot change human nature. Go ahead, be offended and make a fuss or write a law—it won't stop offensive behavior, although it may draw attention to such behavior. I grew up during the 60s feminist era, but look where we are today. The #MeToo and #TimesUp movements comprise enough identity politics to damage a 2018 Democratic midterm push. This is not a smart way to court conservative votes. And a house divided against itself cannot stand.
27
Am I missing something here? Don’t women flirt too? or am I thinking nostalgic? There is a line that both sexes must adhere to and not cross. On each side of that line, stands respect, honesty, sincerity and integrity which are the ingredients that keeps us all in our place of good standing. Regressing from it for the sake of your own gain, only makes life more darker and void. With all this talk and aggressive actions, next time I touch a woman or wink or open and hold the door or just say you look lovely tonight, I will be slightly afraid of the consequences from those innocent gestures. What a tragedy to know in my time, many years ago, we never had to worry about these fears because those actions was understood well and accepted.
42
Catherine Zeta Jones at the Golden Globe awards told the story of her father-in-law, Kirk Douglas, hiring a blacklisted McCarthy-era writer and bravely giving him a screen credit. Everyone rightfully applauded. Unfortunately, this is what's happening now. Any accusation of sexual misconduct can lose the person accused their livelihood and their reputation. There is no due process.
67
Two stories (lbelow) show how #MeToo and their ilk have become self-promotional marketing gimmicks. Pander to your ‘camp’ to get Likes, attention for your ‘new book on said trending topic’, your blog, your business. Use words like #MeToo, the ‘resistance’ or ‘mansplaining’ and you are on your way to success!
Certain dumb PC millennial ‘feminists’ haven’t realized that #MeToo has done itself in. One gal created a ‘database’ of men said to have raped, or otherwise engaged in ‘questionable behavior’ (which obviously can mean anything!) However, the author was generous enough to add a disclaimer that ‘you should take what you read here with a grain of salt, as some is only rumor.’ The guys on her list will surely appreciate that.
In another article, opportunist ‘businesswomen’ decided to create women-only co-working space. "They’re not anti-male." But then the journalist (female) talks about how much they ‘fret’ over what to wear to work (nothing too flashy) and that they ‘always must be prepared for mansplaining or something More Sinister’.
What silly, silly ‘girls’. The world ain’t perfect, nor should we want it to be. Any human interactions that may contain sexual attraction/desire within one or both parties (even when not disclosed or demonstrated) impact how people engage with each other, and how they each interpret those engagements. Life is not a ‘curated’ event, much as some people may want it to be.
https://tinyurl.com/yc633ebm
https://tinyurl.com/yamyek22
40
"Rape is a crime although they regret that women have been turned into" defenseless poor under the control of pharocratic demons. "IN FULL AGREEMENT, this was always my position, in addition to this #metoo has become at this point in a double-edged knife, it is easy to destroy someone (it is the same improper conduct from 20 years ago followed by an apology, than a brutal aggression they put everything in the same bag because nobody wants to be associate with that person guilty or not. Someone said here Deneuve is from another time, The manisfeto is signed by 100 intelectual, writers, philosophers and artists. There's to much histeria in the air. Is time to see things in a more objective, constructive way. It personally irritates me when women are seeing as defenseless, fragile dolls, that's can't decided what's improper or dangerous for us. The big achievement of the Feminism in the 60's of give women total autonomy and freedom. #metoo in a way is the reverse. I am not a fragile being, I am strong and smart woman. No one can't make me do what I don't want to do man aren't villain with super powers to submit me.. Let's be aware of radicalization and victimization.
21
What a waste of time and resources. But Calvin would be proud. My feeling as a white male is to begin the serious withdrawal of cooperation with American women. Nothing to see here, let's all just move along.
18
Much has been lost in translation, it seems! To begin, none of the headlined ladies denounced "the #MeToo movement", b/c in France there are competing hashtags as there are here! In France, #MoiAussi is not #BalanceTonPorc (Name Your Pig), both hashtags are real, and both serve separate purposes.
The original purpose of #MeToo -- says creator Tarana Burke -- was to empower women through empathy. To provide a space where women could share experiences dealing with misogyny, say 'this happened to me', and discover they were not alone. The purpose of #MeToo wasn't to name names -- the "Weinstein Effect" was incidental. Predictably, in retrospect, when powerful people post chilling personal accounts to public billboards on the digital commons, people notice when accusations add up (the he said vs. she said x 10 so now we believe the women phenomenon).
In Swedish, #MeToo might be loosely translated as #ThisHappenedToMe, but there is no #HeDidThisToMe or #MisogynistKillList registered, so far as I know. Whichever hashtag one follows, what's clear is #ISawGoodyProctorWiththeDevil, #LetsGetHim and #WellWhatWasSheWearing cant be lumped together as "the #MeTooMovement".
#IThinkFrancophonesAreTunedOff
#TheInternetWillKillUsAll
9
The #MeToo movement is about exposing unwanted and unilateral sexual advances and not about consensual flirting. If Catherine Deneuve can't see the difference between the two maybe she's living in a men's world for too long.
39
So if a man makes a flirting remark to a woman to which she is not receptive, the #MeToo movement steps in and says “ sexual misconduct “. It used to simply be that no meant no. But there is now nothing for women to say no to since the assumption will be that decent men will no longer ask . Under these new rules women can not flirt and ask either obviously without raising the question about whether they are prostitutes. See where this goes?
28
Can we not find a reasoned basis for calling out and stopping the abusive men who harass women in the workplace and retaliate when rejected. Employment is not courtship. On the other hand, women must grow up, stand up and speak up contemporaneously with the event to be taken seriously and be treated as equals. Let's get to it. Together.
16
The saddest example of what Catherine Deneuve declaims is the hate-fest against Al Franken by the entire Democratic Senate. Recall his SNL Stuart Smally character, with the refrain, "I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and by golly, people like me." Well, when his colleagues stop liking him, he had no defense, since that was the essence of Franken. It wasn't his weakness, it was his humanity.
He had expended eight years of his life learning how to be a legislator, but never took the course on how to defeat his own party transformed into a rabid mob. #Metoo, is morphing into suspicion verging on hatred of men, as a gender, as a sex, as part of the dyad that evolved to consummate that which perpetuates the species. Sexual differences, and yes, male dominance, isn't a fad to be restructured in mere years. It evolved over eons, long before we were even homo sapiens.
The excesses of the Harvey Weinsteins are few in number, but massive in headlines. There is a vast difference between flirting and rape, and it's really not too much to ask that one not be conflated with the other. The opprobrium against rapists isn't new, as it was commonly a capital offense, yet inappropriate flirting, even going so far as an unwanted touch, rightly has been punished by a slap in the face.
The punishment must fit the crime, as erring on either side is a travesty.
59
What idiots! No woman deserves to be groped or hit on at AN INTERVIEW!!!!! Maybe that's how the modeling industry works but those of us who are opposed to it are not talking about being hit on - we are talking about completely inappropriate behavior while applying for a job. No Catherine - Men are NOT allowed to STEAL a kiss whenever they want, especially when a woman is groveling for a job to begin with. SHAMEFUL.
44
America has a tendency, or perhaps a relentlessness, to go from non-action to over-reaction. Case(s) in point: anti-smoking laws (I can't even smoke at California bus stops) the Patriot act, immigration, etc, etc. Also, curiously the word Chauvinism is eponymous coming from the the French Gallant Nicolas Chauvin who was famously considerate of women, even laying down his coat for them to avoid stepping in puddles of water. And you know what, I really like Al Frankin. Oh well c'est la vie
38
For those who question the merits of describing what to them seem like 'trivial offenses' -- men 'hitting on' women (the typical role distribution) -- what needs to be pointed out is that an overwhelming majority of rape victims, male or female, will never come forward to name their assailants.
The ordeal itself is excruciating more often than not; having survived it, being compelled to relive it again & again, revisiting every abominable detail before a team of investigators whose job it is to doubt the victim, is almost like consenting to being crucified twice over. Add to that the difficulty of burdening family members with the trauma, of forever altering a family's dynamic, its emotional landscape: not a decision to be taken lightly.
Yes, rapists must be named & prosecuted for rapes to become rare (perhaps even disappear, hypothetically, having been revealed to be such revoltingly traumatic, vicious crimes). But because it is hard to speak of this trauma, each time someone complains of being non-consensually fondled or squeezed, it becomes that much easier for victims of more violent sexual assaults to find the strength to come forward & name names.
I am old enough to remember a time when boys were taught to be 'gentlemen.' All that meant, ultimately, was to have the decency to find out if their touch or invitation were welcome, before proceeding to kiss & to squeeze. This was in the 70s, by the way.
Put some effort back into courtship. Woo with ardor -- & respect.
20
It's lovely to see the tolerant, compassionate left bashing Deneuve for: 1. having her own opinion 2. appearing to maybe actually LIKE guys 3. being French 4. her long career in deeply "sexist" French films 5. having been attractive and appearing to want to remain attractive 6. being old 7. being white 8. daring to express the opinion that tolerant lefties think she has no right to have.
71
By their artistic genius, Catherine Deneuve and Roman Polanski have done more good to the whole of humanity than most of us. They made us aware of discrimination, alienation, barbarity, insanity, the ambiguity of the relationship between victims and executioners, and many other things. In short, everything that makes us human beings. And above all, they taught us the nuance, the danger of dogmas and mass manipulation. Yet today, they are pilloried on social networks. The individual atrocities of a few will always be less dangerous than the crowd that uses these atrocities to enact liberticidal and absurd rules of general behavior. We do not make laws for the crazy. Fools will always be crazy. I love women. Sorry for my disgusting English: I'm french.
28
Atrocities of “a few”? I have discussed sexual harassment with dozens of women over the years and I don’t know of one, one, who was not sexually harassed by a boss or a teacher or professor, most of us multiple times. I was harassed by 4 different bosses in my time and was first sexually assaulted when I was 5 years old. But I’ve never personally met or have known of a man who was wrongly punished for abuse. So, generalizing from experience, I’d guess that for every 10,000 women who’ve been harassed, maybe 1 man has been slapped on the wrist or lost his job. I’m sorry for anyone in any judicial system who has suffered wrongly but the logic of letting 100 guilty men go free rather than restraining a single innocent men has been the logic by which men have terrorized women into accepting their non-human status for centuries. Time’s up.
25
Turns out not everything can be reduced to a hashtag.
26
There is a certain messiness to flirting which is going to happen and is not harassment. However, workplaces and business dinners are not the place to kiss someone or touch their knee. A bill requiring consent before sex is insane and restrictive. If both people are in agreement, why do you need proof? Innocent until proven guilty. No one should be accused of sexual assault without solid proof, but requiring consent will just make the whole process awkward. What high school virgins are going to get out their forms for their first time?
8
The most beautiful relationships I know involve couples in the same line of work, pursuing the same passion. Some had the fortune to meet during school, others at a later time in life. This is now forbidden, in favor of superficial relationships set up by internet dating services. Wonderful!
27
The misogyny in the comments is hilarious. The insults towards this woman are flying because she dares to have a different opinion. If you insulted her, go look in the mirror. You're looking at a misogynist. Your looking at someone who doesn't think women should be allowed to have their own opinion.
33
Brava Catherine Deneuve for some sane comments on this
witch hunt against the male species.
Questions for the MeToo Ladies:
Will a man now be arrested if he whistles at a pretty girl?
Holds the door open for her?
Asks her for a date?
Really, where will it end?
(Or do you all consider the above "old-fashioned?")
22
I think that it's sad to see so many women missing the point of what Catherine Deneuve is trying to say and I can't even begin to think 'why?'. There's nothing wrong with a little flirt, even in the workplace. The difference between a harmless attempt to become more intimate and harassment is quite simple - the one, who tries (be it the man or the woman), has to respect the potential "No" coming from the other half of the interaction. As long as that is respected, with maybe an apology "Please forgive me, I misread the situation.", there is no problem. Sexual harassment has nothing to do with work, it's just about people willing to abuse power to get their way after a "No". But just as that can happen with a persistent, unscrupulous boss, it can happen at a bus stop with a guy a foot taller than the girl.
18
I believe there are several critical things to keep in mind concerning accusations of sexual misconduct.
1. Accusations must not be anonymous. People have the right to confront their accusers.
2. Accusations must be made in a timely manner. It is unfair to the accused to have to face accusations that are based on events that took place five, ten, even forty years ago. Timely accusations are not only fairer to the accused, they will make the women more credible. In Alabama, many voters apparently dismissed the accusations made against Roy Moore on the grounds that the events took place decades ago. Surfacing as they did during a heated political campaign, the accusations were made even weaker by their timing. Both sides benefit from timely accusations. There is a reason we have a statute of limitations.
3. Finally, "believing women" (as accusers) means that they are taken seriously and their accusations are investigated thoroughly and sincerely. "Believing" women does not mean we accept the accusations as verdicts.
4. "Sexual misconduct" covers a wide range of behaviors, some of which (rape) are felonies, while others amount to no more than gross and objectionable that is not criminal.
These considerations apply to the present and future, not the past. In order to change the status quo, it has been necessary to listen to and investigate accusations that are sometimes decades old.
14
The answer is never in the extremes. To move immediately to a "zero tolerance" stance on anything is doomed to fail -- spectacularly.
A hand on the knee is offensive, a violation of a person's body and personal space to be sure, especially when that hand belongs to a boss, a stranger, or your garden variety creep, and the knee belongs to someone who doesn't want to be touched. That's reasonable. That's sane.
But it is not, by any stretch of the imagination, in the same category as the rape of a child, or the criminal quid-pro-quo tactics of people in power who take whatever they want just because they think they're entitled to it.
I cringed a little when Natalie Portman sharply pointed out that all the Best Director nominees at the Golden Globes were men. That was an actual fact, and I do wish it hadn't been. But I saw that Guillermo del Toro cringed a little at those words, too, before he was announced the winner. Did Ms. Portman enjoy dousing his victory with that splash of vinegar? Were all the nominees complicit in the selection of the male-only contenders? Must all men be made to pay?
I felt badly for those men. I feel a million times worse for the women who have suffered loss and pain and unthinkable abuse, but demonizing all men isn't the answer to this problem.
I've dealt with my share of creeps and abusers, but I've known too many good men throughout my life to feel compelled to punish them all. I'm with Ms. Deneuve on this one. Let's find the sane balance.
31
Except that the film that won was directed by a woman and wasn't nominated as best director so there was a real reason for what she said.
13
When a person has a position of power over another they must severely err on the far side of caution should they desire to pursue a relationship with a subordinate. Sadly even this position is seen as untenable in today's environment.
I wonder how many wonderful marriages and enduring romances will be quashed by the current state of affairs.
11
Do we want:
a safe and fair workplace
or
should we keep it an unequal and oppressive one so we can keep the door open to being able to sleep with people at work?
I know where I want to work.
16
The opinion of this group including Deneuve resonates with the uneasiness I have with the metoo movement. I have never attempted to wield power to gain sexual favors but I have made inappropriate advances. The circumstances of male behavior towards a woman of interest ranges over a broad spectrum. Consider the sensitivity of the woman, the actions of the man, their relationship at the time of the interaction and the age difference. The age difference is a big factor. In many of these incidences, you have an older man and young woman. A young woman often attempts to behave in a manner above their true experience level and maturity. How common this is in a cosmopolitan such as Manhattan. Consequently, the man's advances ultimately are shocking to her. The man is rejected and the experience becomes sexual misconduct. Certainly, if the actions of the man are egregious and/or several, calling him out within his social circle or publicly, if a prominent figure, is justifiable. But older men with active libidos that approach younger women - the circumstances of many of the accused, are at risk because a young immature woman can mislead. In contrast, young men that conduct themselves in similar manner towards such women either gain favor or are dismissed and the experience brushed off because, well, they are just being a young man. Wielding power to gain sexual interactions is unacceptable but women with deceptive levels of maturity make this issue no where near black & white.
8
"Deceptive levels of maturity" what? If she's younger than you, that's hardly hidden. So you should know her maturity level all ready and adjust. However If you are an older man making a pass and the younger woman are shocked, don't blame her 'maturity'.She never had the least idea that you would think she'd be interested in your middle aged (or older) self. She assumed you knew you were out of your league.
21
My job is to tackle intractable problems and conquer new market segments with my team. Catherine Deneuve's job was to pose as an aloof, mysterious beauty to be conquered.
Catherine Deneuve and I may as well live in different worlds.
17
Men do have the right to pursue women. And if an office mate hits on another office mate, then she can tell him to stuff it. Unfortunately, if a boss or a supervisor hits on someone under him (or her, to be fair), then it gets more complicated. Someone who controls your salary, your chances for advancement, can take advantage. That is what should not be tolerated. Not just equals pursuing equals
14
Stage acting is often referred to as 'legitimate'. Film acting is apparently something else.
How many aspiring film actors have failed to figure it out?...not many.
The film industry is designed and built to tease. So, as an aspirant climbs through the lower reaches of the business, how surprising is it that someone in power, typically a male, jumps the rails and makes a grab at the goods.
Some actors, perhaps many, see it as an affirmation.
He just couldn't keep his hands offa me!
2
I am a #metoo supporter but I have to say some of this (not all) makes sense. In average worksites, when a harassment complaint is dealt with, it's private and confidential. It's not announced to the whole organization and certainly not the public. It's also investigated before any action is taken. That's the first thing that came to my mind when these cases popped up. I do investigations and there have been some instances (albeit very few) that turned out to be false accusations but the investigation allowed me to uncover that. I think these cases should be dealt with privately and fairly. If the investigation does come to some kind of action, then because of the nature of that business, they can make it public, not before, and they certainly shouldn't rush to make an employment decision before looking at all the facts.
12
She's got a point and the extreme approach being advocated could result in fewer women being hired in many industries. Who wants to deal with the potential hassle? I had a little company and had a landlord hit on my employee who rebuffed him. Then he refused to renew the lease. My lawyer for some reason didn't pursue sexual harassment as an issue and we had a female judge. This was more than ten years ago. It cost me quite a bit of money and hassle that I sure didn't need.
6
Sure, there will be over-correction and failures of justice, as there is with all social change. But I question whether the average MeToo detractor can name even five guys who have been fired for clumsy come-ons rather than actual harassment. Which begs the question of why a minor over-correction strikes Deneuve et al as such a great social harm. Perhaps they feel they would lose something if they were evaluated solely on their talent and competence? Whatever. The rest of us know that in some parts of the workplace a man is still regarded as the generic form of human while a woman is a distracting sex-bomb that should forgive a bit of groping every day. We will resist.
24
At moments at an earlier time in the 70's I too "pushed" off behavior quite inappropriate. Perhaps culturally these French women have a different level of acceptance than we Americans.
2
Stephen Colbert had best actor, Mr. Franco, on his show and Mr. Franco if he thought there was another way to handle women's outrage except calling men out on social media as some did regarding Mr. Franco. Mr. Franko did not defend himself and said he would do what he has to do to make things right.
No, unfortunately, Mr. Colbert, there is not another way. Men like you have the microphones. Men like you decide what is going to be talked about on/in news and entertainment.
No more. Time's Up! Women will not go back to the 5th/15th centuries and girls/women will no longer be silent. Women will use whatever means are available to speak up immediately when discrimination rears it's ugly head.
Women will take one-half the power in the world - and one half the microphones with scripts women have written - to bring balance to the world. This is just the start.
17
Thank you, Catherine Deneuve, for standing up for reason.
America with its sad and repressed Puritan heritage has gone completely nuts about the #MeToo movement and the movement has been hijacked by disgusting opportunists like Kirsten Gillibrand et al
Of course, some men - like Harvey Weinstein, Bill O'Reilley and Bill Clinton - are pigs, but not ALL of us men are.
Or do you automatically assume your father, brother, cousin and best friend are pigs just because they carry a Y chromosome?
The movement has become a witch hunt without due process.
47
Please point me out to the part on this unwritten manifesto where it reads "all men are pigs"
15
Show us any example of a man being criminally prosecuted for, let alone convicted of, “clumsy flirting.” That just does not happen.
The people who are arguing against #metoo are suspiciously rich and white. Perhaps they have avoided sexual assault and harassment for precisely that reason. The NY Times itself published an article in 2014 demonstrating that poor women are far more likely to experience these crimes than wealthy ones.
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/22/opinion/who-suffers-most-from-rape-an...
The viewpoint expressed in this letter is woefully out of touch, and betrays a shocking but unsurprising blindness to privilege.
46
A lot of us who support Deneuve are neither rich, white, nor male. We're just too scared that we will receive the Deneuve treatment to dare express our opinion openly.
15
Men have the right to pursue women. Women have the right to reject a man's advances. A man should respect the woman's wishes and right to refuse him.
But nowdays, instead of rejecting a man's advances, some women will sometimes let the man continue and will claim that the male sexually assaulted and harassed them. Some men, when rejected, will still continue to press his advances, instead of retreating. If women were to make their desires more known, and if men were to accept rejection, we wouldn't need things like the #METOO movement.
Likewise, it goes both ways. Women have the right to pursue, and men have the right to reject. To force someone, man or woman, is a grave crime, for a person should have the right to accept or reject someone's sexual advances. .
Of course, there are places where such conduct should not take place, whether welcome or not, such as work places. Such actions can be distracting to not only to the ones involved, but to everyone around.
16
Ms. Denevue's words are well-chosen and and sophisticated and in sharp contrast to the vocabulary and thought-processing of many crass American women. Often what one says is as important as to how one says it. Take note, #MeToo'ers.
27
"Thanks" for "mansplaining".
16
It occurs to me that Ms. Deneuve is a victim herself. Is it possible that this talented woman has been wounded for so long that she can no longer distinguish depredation, that it is ingrained, that it is is now a part of her psyche? So much so that she now must defend those that accosted her and others? So many have laughed, snickered and even applauded the French lifestyle where it is even acceptable for their Presidents, Mitterrand, Giscard and Pompidou to have affairs with another women?
I am reminded of the the movie, "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels," where one of the lead actors is released from imprisonment. Speaking to a police inspector he says, "“She caught me with another woman". “C’mon, you’re French, you understand that!”. The police inspector replies, “To be with another woman, that is French. To be caught, that is American.”
11
If the sexual inquisition is bad now think of how extreme it would become if Hillary had been elected. I predicted that there would be a wave of retribution against men if she won the election. It appears the women libbers and the liberal press have decided to go on with the planned offensive.
There is nothing free about our media when all of the so-called independent media organizations agree among themselves to not publish anything that would derail the "movement". How long did it take the mass media to finally admit that the poster child for the "Hands Up! Don't Shoot!" international movement really was a common violent thug? It's the same with this social justice sexual revolution. #Metoo also has the implication that if women were in the same powerful positions as men they would also be abusive and they are entitled to say Me Too!
5
Let's give it a try and see what happens.
7
Like what? I already know that when the roles are reversed that women become abusive. But not all men are abusive and so that will be the similarity.
1
Adding insult to injured Americans, they wrote their letter in French.
11
Catherine Deneuve made an excellent living allowing her beauty and body to be exploited by male directors.
Anyone who doubts that she has not been utterly brainwashed by the whole male-driven "anyone who doesn't embrace free sex is a prude" attitude has only to watch Belle du Jour, in which she plays a bored housewife who works as a prostitute on the side "for fun."
That movie smacks of privilege: a beautiful white woman, who lacks for nothing in her life except "fun," thinks it's amusing to work as a prostitute. It's a slap in the face of any poor woman who has been driven to prostitution out of desperation, or anyone who has been trafficked into sexual slavery.
Ms. Deneuve writes from a position of power and privilege, and her unwanted opinion is the product of a fairy-tale world that most women will never inhabit.
56
She might have a point but she is rich woman from an older generation.Her money insulates her.Besides predators prey on the young and the weak.She is neither.Is this came from a younger actress it would be more valid
12
Hmm how convenient to take a phrase from a philosopher and twist it into meaning harassment should be disregarded. It’s time women of every generation woke up and expected to be treated with respect. It’s horrifying that some “clumsy” chap in office trying to kiss you or paw you should be considered romantic. And it’s convenient to sweep all women who prefer to be treated with dignity as sexual conservatives. A chap paying overt and unwanted physical and verbal attention to any girl is a pervert and knows he is wrong. The good guys.....they were always good and will continue to be so. Let’s not have shades of grey please. This is a black and white issue. Obviously women like Deneuve need to look deeper within themselves. They do not further the cause of this new awakening of women the world over. Indeed she makes men into Narcissi, admiring their reflections in women’s eyes....so absorbed that they do not register the dismay and discomfort they are causing.
18
I think it is not denouncing metoo, it is denouncing the overkill, the mania that often happens when people who feel oppressed are empowered. It may be human nature. It is the same thing when BLM or similar groups claim Michael Brown was murdered or when minorities throw rocks at the Klan, etc. So, soon after metoo went into effect, it went off track. Cowardly corporations suspend immediately or fire people b/c of fear of bad PR, Google fires a man for stating his opinion in a dignified way who was invited to do so, Sen. Franken has to resign for acting foolishly, but not really assaulting anyone over 10 years ago (although he is part of the mind set that encourages the overkill). Everything Deneuve and others said is true - they didn't deny reality. They just want reality to be realistic.
Even people who do abuse or harass women know its wrong (hence the payoffs). But, flirting, joking, is not unwanted touching (although there are limits to everything, even otherwise relatively innocent things). People, even the dreaded white straight male deserves to be heard and to get a chance to defend himself. And consensual sex is not harassment or abuse just b/c it is a boss. My 27 year relationship tells me we shouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater.
The metoo movement had a good start and it is important. It went too far and some people are saying so. I'm glad for both.
23
Pendulums tend to swing to extremes. We are just now, possibly coming out of the dark ages to acknowledge pervasive sexual abuse towards women. We need a long, bright, spotlight on the issue. Ms. Denvueve and cohorts have no experience as vulnerable women of color, women doing menial jobs. They should get on board and help their less fortunate sisters.
21
Ah, so is this the new ploy?..we are changing tactics and saying that the #MeToo movement is really to support poor immigrant women who toil as housecleaners, fasted food order-takers, home healthcare aid. That's funny, because all I'd been seeing was mainly educated/well-to-do young white women throwing around the #MeToo tags all over social media. I wasn't seeing many immigrant women doing so.
But hey, if we want to switch tactics and now make this 'movement' more about supporting poor/immigrant women, who's to complain, right?
5
I knew things went too far when Al Franken was thrown under the bus.
29
Another thought: Al Franken would have gone public to talk about what he did, admitting it, expressing himself, and opening the conversation much further. By not affording him that opportunity, by adding him to a list of molesters like a pedophile, we missed hearing him expand on the subject and I expect it would have been great for all concerned.
6
This condemnation of the #MeToo movement once again blames the women who have been the victims. It's not the women who are doing the firing of the men. It's their employers, or voters. Up till now, the men held ALL the cards. Too bad Ms Deneuve can't understand that.
30
As a woman, I applaud people like Catherine Deneuve who have the courage to respectfully express a counter opinion, knowing they will be subjected to name-calling, insults and condescension in this current climate. I found the attacks against her intelligence, appearance, morality and age far more disturbing than any statements made in the open letter. It seems the current brand of feminism requires we all have identical view points with regard to how we perceive each and every encounter with men.
52
The behavior Ms, Deneuve describes does seem like misbehavior to me. Cultural differences, perhaps, but I don't want to fall back on stereotypes (a la Pepé Le Pew.)
4
If Republicans fear they may lose control of Congress in 2018, they may again ban French Fries from their dining room menu, as they did after France publicly opposed the Iraq War. This time, though, instead of substituting Freedom Fries, as they did in 2003, they are likely to replace the banned item with She-Asked-For-It-Fries.
If it turns out the Democrats do regain control of Congress in 2018, we may also see French Fries banned from the dining room, this time to be replaced by Twitter Fries in honor of our new, improved system of American justice.
Be that as it may, when did America forget that accusations are not the same as established facts, or are we now in an age where the lies of the Trump Administration have so colored our thinking that accusations equal facts and that "alternative facts" is not an oxymoron?
There are extremely serious issues to be discussed, but the media have too often encouraged the soap opera of personalities -- Weinstein, Moore, Franken, Deneuve -- rather than deal with the fundamental issues themselves, clickbait being more profitable than substance.
Instead of articles about NAMES, we need more discussion about the difference between rape and harassment, about what constitutes harassment, about whether women would or would not be better off with a 2018 Congress composed of Republican sleazebags or a Democratic Congress composed of semi-sleazebags, about class and cultural differences regarding feminism, about anything but the famous.
4
I don't care what Catherine Deneuve says. She wears fur. I can't stand to look at her.
10
Man proposes and woman disposes and conversely. If it is no, it is NO ! Otherwise, it's harassment. It's not more complicated.
After, it is a question over the way of the proposition.
3
There's plenty of debate going on over these points and there has been for years in feminist circles. In my book all serious debate is worthy of consideration - what I do object to are the calls from Argento and the like who classify any counter view as 'interiorized misogyny' or some kind of lobotomy. Just because Hollywood has suddenly discovered a cause doesn't give actors the right to set the parameters. Lay off the thought policing.
20
The danger of the #metoo movement is due to conflating accusation with guilt. In doing this, people become deaf to reasonable issues and concerns such as those raised by Deneuve, et al. Dismissing a legitimate point of view as out of touch or generational is as naive as it is disrespectful. It also smacks of gender entitlement which risks retarding rather than advancing respect for women.
21
It's the McCarthyism tactics and hysteric self-righteousness proudly on display at the Golden Globes on Sunday that makes me sick. Not to belittle or dismiss those who have been violated and wronged... please, please speak up... but this has become a bandwagon sloganeering glad-handing farce... these people are actors and this is all part of their act.
20
Have you seen the TV programs many females adore to watch including Game of Thrones, West World, The Tudors, Versailles, etc?
And then read or listen what does women say about the way they want to be treated.
It is like that old research result in advertising from asking people which beverage they preferred and they chose on paper wine, apparently to appear refined, but the researchers then found out those persons were actually drinking beer in their every day lives.
4
Alberto, don't pick and choose what you think women like about, for instance, Games of Thrones which has many powerful women's roles. For instance would you want to mess with Arya and her Needle.
2
The leaders and supporters of #MeToo should welcome debate among women if they want to see the movement grow and thrive. This is especially true for the movement's global profile, where it will inevitably face alternatives to American feminism. In France, where feminist theory differs from its American and English counterparts politically significant ways, there's a real concern that asserting the collective female identity of #MeToo marginalizes the unique experiences of the individual and her mode of expression, and is ultimately counterproductive to the movement's aims. Many will focus on Ms. Deneuve's age and privileged status and dismiss the letter as an out-of-touch exercise, but we would do well to remember that one hashtag can't possibly contain the opinions and experiences of us all, nor should we protest those who choose to engage with the problem in their own (individualized) ways.
14
The statement by Ms. Deneuve and over 100 other prominent French women is a reminder of the vast difference between the U.S. and many other countries in sexual attitudes. For example, In France extramarital affairs, including among officials at the highest level of government, are taken with a shrug compared with here, and the same is true of numerous other European countries.
There's a flaw in the #MeToo movement. Though it will be highly effective among liberals, Democrats, many in entertainment and the arts, it is going to have little effect among those such as Trump and Roy Moore, the Republicans and right-wingers, they're just going to laugh it off and go on behaving as they've always done.
10
I hope The Scarlet Letter is still required reading in high school. The MeToo movement has revived a public discussion that we as a society need to have on an ongoing basis.
8
What is important about this letter is the opening of a discussion that has been one sided. Differences must be made between acts, behaviors and (as the French letter shows) mentalities.
9
I honestly think some of this has to do with the way men and women in the US relate to each other.
People used to date. And by the time many young women were out of their teens, they knew how to go out to the movies and end the evening with a kiss--or not. They knew how to turn down a date while still staying on friendly terms. They knew how to say thanks and go on about their day if someone said "nice outfit.'
But young people arrive in college today often without that experience. And many think they are expected to hook up as part of general social life--to the point where they have to get drunk first.
I don't dismiss any complaints of sexual harassment at work. It's happened to many of us, including me, and is unwelcome. But there is a way to handle many things at a "local" level that do not rise to the level of people losing their jobs.
32
Except that in Catcher in the Rye, those wonderful dating times, Holden essentially witnesses a date rape in the first few chapters. It is just BS that things were better.
7
Ms. Deneuve and the rest of the women that agree with her need to sideline themselves for once and not destroy a women's movement long in coming. Maybe she is not offended by being objectified starting upon birth and the patriarchial society that women have had to endure for centuries, but the rest of us are fed up and TIME'S UP! Phyllis Schafly revisited -- she destroyed the Equal Rights Amendment for women. Move aside ladies and let other women move forward and help move the patriarchial world we live in forward and leave your type of thinking far behind! TIME'S UP and WE ARE FED UP!!!
22
When my brother had daughters and they grew up only interested in make up and clothing that ended my wife's and interest in taking chances of having children of our own.
Women are the first who defend and promote the "princess" culture.
5
If anyone wants to be taken seriously then stop trying to get attention showing your body and using enticing make up and perfume, and try getting attention with the quality and quantity of your work.
24
It is ironic that the statement says that women are not reducible to our bodies. Sexual assault and harassment does just that, reducing a woman to a body part. In any case, denouncing the movement amounts to blaming the victim. If men are being fired for little reason, the employers who fire them should be held accountable. Some of the official reactions to the revelations do indeed appear extreme. They seem to be based on a desire to make all of the furor go away as soon as possible. Perhaps if it does go away, those who were complicit or "guilty" (perhaps the employers) may be spared. Agreed, women react differently to sexual assault - some "move on" relatively quickly and others don't. But that doesn't erase the necessity of consent. The crime shouldn't depend on the victim's recovery. Moreover, Roman Polanski drugged a child and then raped her and then ran away to avoid punishment. Maybe he has sent money, very good. But I have yet to see a public apology to the rape of a child, let alone apologies from those who turned a blind eye.
9
Sexual harassment reduces women(and men) to body parts only if the victim chooses it to be so. No one can tell you what you are or who you are. That is the whole point of Catherine Deneuves statement. You may not agree with her but at least understand what she is saying.
6
I was grudgingly conceding she may have a point, however trivial, until I got to the Roman Polanski stuff. What he did was indefensible. This is why Roy Moore got defeated. Sex with a child is not okay. They cannot give consent.
Nor can impaired women. And indeed, women who need to keep their jobs don't always have a choice, which amounts to much the same thing. Consent when you have a metaphorical gun to your head is not consent.
Ms. Deneuve is an old lady, and no matter how much cosmetic surgery is hiding that fact she thinks like an old lady. Even my nonagenarian mother entered the 21st Century. Apparently Ms. Deneuve has not.
20
The letter defended the work of polanski not the man himself.
8
Balance. Creating injustice does not make friends in the right places.
1
Could she be feeling the heavy guilt/ weight of defending the mischief Roman Polanski?
2
This is a learning process, as we continue to evolve from the apes. As this cultural change develops we must be careful to differentiate between the PIP’s (pigs in power), such as Harvey Weinstein or Donald Trump, who need to be fired, and the mere klutzes who only need a trip to the HR department.
Then we must also allow some time for the education to take effect, like we do with any medicine.
The educational process has started, and Catherine Deneuve seems to be trying to ensure that we do not kill romance in the process. Now is the time to listen to my favorite down-to-earth philosopher (Ziggy) who said it best: “Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.”
6
Catherine Deneuve is a secure, confident woman, well able to handle herself in situations with men where other women would be vulnerable or have difficulty. If all women were as strong and as able as she is, MeToo would probably not exist. But all women are not as strong and confident as she is, nor should they have to be,. Change is required. At the same time her comments ring true, there is an element of zealotry in the movement which needs to be counter-balanced if there is to be a satisfactory outcome. Her words are a welcome addition to the debate.
19
Thank you Catherine. Your words took courage and may give a few thoughtful people pause to consider the consequences of their actions. But members of the tribe that is driving this inquisition cannot hear you. They will spend their energies to subdue those who do not accept their religion. You shall become a target. My hope is that history will bring the matter into focus and acknowledge that at the base of human male-female interactions is the biology of a drive that is necessary for survival of the species. We have not come to grips with the question of how we should interact in a civilized society so as to channel that drive rather than repress its expression.
20
People spend all day at work. Millions of people have met and married people at work, even when in different positions of power (Doctor and nurse, etc). Over generalizing and saying that flirtation at work is never appropriate is an overreaction and not realistic.
40
For me the distinction is workplace/non workplace. Flirting is fine in a context of equal power relationships but it is absolutely unacceptable in one in which one person can retaliate by denying promotions, degrees etc..
12
Do the women in France have healthcare tied to jobs? In my opinion these French women do not understand the ramifications for women within the U.S. system where job loss, career damage, health consequences, long term economic loss, educational access or educational debt issues can all potentially be impacted by sexual abusers victimization.
These French women seem to conflate flirting with threats and additionally many seem to be in positions of privilege. However clumsy an assault by someone with a great deal of power over an employee may or may not be something one can deflect and the woman's risk could be losing a long career cv and many years of educational effort.
12
As a French woman having lived in the US, the UK, France and Germany, I am a bit shocked to see in the comments a fundamental lack of knowledge about French feminism. To make one thing clear: French feminism is alive and well, in fact no worse off than in any other country I've lived, and neither Mme Deneuve nor any other one woman speaks for French women as a whole. Also, the Revolution has nothing to do with it, and yes, we have M. Strauss-Kahn, but at least we did not elect him president, or candidate. He was defeated in the primaries - by a woman.
There is a vast movement in France in the spirit of #metoo these days, indicating that we still have a long way to go as a society. But there are also voices against it, Mme Deneuve's being just one of them. Some of these voices have better arguments than others. But we do love our pluralism, so we like to not just brush them off as over the hill, but argue it out. Because in the end of the day, if we want women's rights, we'll have to argue them all the way. Which, by the way, is also what we should teach our daughters.
Mme Deneuve makes one very valid point though: the maxim of "innocent until proven guilty" must be upheld. Mass hunting of the accused, not the proven guilty must stop. It kills any libertarian movement's credibility.
41
I suppose that if the Democrats regain control of Congress in 2018, French Fries will again be banned from their dining room menu, as they were by the Republicans after France opposed the Iraq War. Perhaps this time, instead of being substituted with Freedom Fries, they will be replaced by Twitter Fries in honor of our new, improved system of American justice. Of course, if it looks like the Republicans might lose Congress, they may well take a preemptive action before the election by banning French Fries in favor of She-Asked-For-It-Fries.
4
“We are not reducible to our bodies. Our inner freedom is inviolable. And this freedom that we cherish is not without risks and responsibilities.”
Bravo, Catherine. #MeToo’s self-defeating attempt to equate victimhood with shame needed to be called out by a woman who refuses to allow men to define her identity.
16
Ms. Deneuve has a long history of standing up for the rights of women. Why Safronova chooses to include Deneuve's comments on Polanski and omit the fact that Deneuve was one of the women who, in 1971, signed the Manifesto of the 343, is, to me, suggestive of the kind of "cherry-picking" too many journalists engage in when covering politically charged stories.
While I disagree with the "stealing a kiss" wording in the document, the cautions, taken as a whole, seem sound. We--as women--have been given an opportunity to publicly address very serious issues and we risk squandering that when we refuse to acknowledge the complexities of gender, sex, power, and agency. Our statements and calls for action must come from a place of cool reason, rather than white-hot rage. While women certainly have reason for rage (I know I do) I cannot respond from that place.
21
There seem to be emerging counter arguments which should be considered in this important, but difficult, issue. Importantly, however, there remains the serious issue of limiting women's advancement as argued in the diatribe against Google by an employee who declared women were biologically incapable of succeeding in technology. Thus their advancement was counter to the core business model and financial success of the company. If this argument prevails then a counter argument as to men being biologically incapable of succeeding, including legislatively, should be considered.
4
I am so grateful to Ms. Deneuve and other women who have spoken out in favor of sexual freedom in the context of the #MeToo movement. I especially appreciate her defense of flirtation and gallantry. Thank you for your gallantry, Catherine!
15
This is the first I've heard of the man who was prevented from practicing his profession because he "touched a knee." I wish the authors of this letter had provided more details about that case. Meanwhile, we have all heard lots of stories (with extensive detail and corroboration) about men who have done much worse with impurity. I think we have a ways to go before we are in danger of having gone too far.
8
I'm not 100% sure. But I think they are referring to Michael Fallon, the UK defense minister, who resigned in November 2017 for having touched a female journalist's knee in 2002.
6
Happens all the time. Fired on the spot. Just open your eyes.
6
Q.V. Garrison Keillor
4
I can understand both sides here. On one hand, yes, it is time to call out inappropriate behavior, harassment and assault. On the other, sometimes this goes too far.
This was easily predictable. At the beginning of any movement there is an explosion of anger, an exhilarating time when you feel like you are finally being heard for the first time, and you take this opportunity to tell your stories. There are also almost always people who take the idealism too far and start asking for things that are impossible to give.
I think everyone needs to take a deep breath here. This is a big change, a big social movement, and some pendulum swinging is to be expected. We've never done this before, and because of this I think we need to be very conscious of how we interact as men and women. Women right now are feeling all of this out; this is the first time that many of us have been taken seriously when it comes to how we're mistreated. Many of us, men and women both, may feel like we're stumbling around in the dark a bit.
Hopefully when everything shakes out we will have a society that is more open to listening to women's stories, less accepting of sexist behavior, and more willing to prosecute those who assault and harass. I give props to the soldiers on the ground who are working at turning this into a reality.
5
We aren't powerless or helpless creatures needing protection, we human beings who are taking our voices and our power back. In the workplace, it's NOT okay for coworkers to try to make a move, or show pics of their parts. That's not what we're there for. We are there to do a job, period. This has been going on for far too long, and time's up.
8
Then women should dress accordingly and not flirt with the bosses or coworkers themselves. Same standard which I have seen they do not follow.
8
Pleasure is a birth right and I claim mine.
It is mine to experience in my own way, in my own time, and with myself alone or with whomever I choose to share it with.
There is nothing prudish about saying my pleasure is mine. There is nothing sexy about not valuing my "no" as much as my "yes." There is no dance of seduction if I am not free to move forward or away as well.
Pleasure is a birth right and it is mine.
12
Some years ago my Cousin's Film Society organized a French Film Festival with the cooperation of the French Ministry of Culture. The Festival was provided with newly released films or recent films that did not get a commercial release in the US. There were two or three that were disturbing in that they had an adult male protagonists smitten with young teen age girls and the relationship presented in a positive light. When I questioned the film critic that had also been sent to talk about these films about the seaminess of this premise he was confused about why the subject material was objectionable. Recently I read that a thirty two year old man was exonerated by a French court for having sex with an eleven year old in France.. I think that Ms Deneuve has more pressing concerns in her home country than giving free passes to artistically gifted child molesters and defending any type of sexual assault.
11
Many women have offered to provide "the casting couch" in all fields of endeavor. Men on the receiving end of such offers may think twice about accepting such offers going forward.
3
That is absolutely true, and I have witnessed that in my own profession in Medical Schools and University Hospitals.
2
I'm an older woman, and in my past I was taught to 'put up' with 'harmless' unwanted advances by making sure that I stayed out of the way. I was a buxom young lass, and by the the time I was dating, I was very very good at intercepting hands going where they shouldn't, after all of that experience of 'putting up' with 'harmless' advances of a few of the friends of my parents. It was tolerated behavior. I was expected to stop it. At a young age.
If someone treated me or my daughters or my granddaughters now in the same way, they would immediately be removed from the circle of friends and would not be allowed near any of us.
Thank God times have changed. Deneuve may think it is OK to be felt up and harassed, and maybe she commands so much power that she was never the victim of an attempt to exchange sex for a job. If so, she's rare. Sadly, it appears that she just thinks it is OK and it is up to women to "put up with it."
I no longer have any respect for her.
26
Remember Helen G. Brown, editor of Cosmopolitan? She craved the kind of attention (some of it appalling) which other women, deemed more attractive than she, were getting from men. She altered her look a bit in order to get in on the attention. I wonder if deep down women just don't want to let go of the elation they feel when they discover (through flirting - clumsily or not) that they are sexually attractive to men - especially for really attractive women who are validated in this way throughout most of their lives. It may seem prudish, but for my money the type of restrained flirting we see in period pieces in film and in books is infinitely more seductive than the kind we've heard about recently. In the end, I gather there are women who can tolerate harsher versions of flirting, meanwhile there are different versions of flirting doled out by men based on the man's culture and/or based on woman's level of attractiveness or power.
4
Having lived and worked in France for years, I had been expecting this type of statement.
Yes, I felt I could be more 'feminine' in France without being thought of as looking for attention. But it was harder to work as a woman and be taken seriously. One of my bosses tried to ask me out - at least he didn't take revenge when I turned him down, tho he became less friendly. A colleague told me he couldn't work sitting beside a woman.
In this country, I have been concerned that some accusations might be unfounded. Or that the ambiance is such that men and women can no longer simply be interested in each other. However, there is no denying that the types of incidents that have grabbed the headlines - some criminal - have not been mere 'flirtations' - they have involved men in position of power relative to the woman, and physical expressions such as unsolicited grabs and kisses or worse. This is NOT OK.
The US does tend to extremes and absolutes - when I compare the US with France regarding crimes, violence here is all too common, whereas in France the most frequent crime women are subjected to is indecent exposure. But therein lies the problem: I and other French women tried to dismiss it as a nuisance, something to avoid when you sit in the metro, when in fact it really troubled me and should not be acceptable.
There needs to a balance, but so far it has been way out of balance. #meToo is one step towards correcting it.
12
The letter by the Frenchwomen rests on a flawed premise. Has a single one of these men been charged with a crime? Not that I'm aware of. Any employee can be fired if they violate a company policy, whether or not the conduct would constitute a crime. Indeed, most employees are "at will" and therefore can be fired for any or no reason at all.
If flirting with or touching your coworkers is against your employer's policy and you do it, you may be fired. But that's not nearly akin to being charged with a crime and facing a loss of liberty.
Also, it's noteworthy but rarely noted that almost none of the men accused of improper behavior have denied engaging in the behavior described. In fact, most have acknowledged and apologized for it.
10
If anyone has a copy of the Kinsey data (1948, Alfred Kinsey et al), they might want to peruse it. There is an overlap in what some people like and what others find offensive. Clearly women have suffered grievously under the wink and nod system that has prevailed. The way to go about addressing the problem is to keep solutions fair and to protect everyone from abuse. Like all phenomenon that result from not dealing with long term social issues, there is a learning curve to a better way. The path is not smooth, but it is necessary to get to the kinder place. Perhaps it's time to commission an update of the study.
2
We should be able to tell the difference between a creep and a criminal and not paint both with the same brush.
But the tidal wave of calling out a full range of inappropriate, unwanted behaviors serves to put those who would behave in that way on notice. It gets the conversation started, and that in itself is a giant step forward.
8
In Ta-Nehisi Coates' book Between the World and Me, one of the points he emphasizes that we are our bodies, that what happens to our bodies happens to us. I agree. It doesn't mean we don't have a spiritual or an intellectual life. "We are not reducible to our bodies" seems too dismissive of the reality of our physical selves in these human forms, and therefore too dismissive of the damage that humans can inflict on each other. It also implies that the body's existence is unimportant and petty compared to the life of the mind, or inner freedom, or whatnot. Of course that's a valid viewpoint, but I think that here it is an unconscious assumption that muddies the argument being made.
2
I am so disappointed in her. I had always admired her.
I realize there will be the initial tsunami (which is long overdue) and some accusations will be seen as trivial. But for so long it was (horrifyingly) “normal” behavior.
People in power just being abusive and self serving.
In some ways maybe it’s the French/generation she comes from. But the language in their missive is just so shaming of women who don’t “comply”.
10
I agree with Mademoiselle Deneuve. There has to be nuance when dealing with these matters. Americans have generally forgotten that every issue isn't black or white.
9
They are completely right. Here no such a large group has the courage to do the same. But this will reverberate, because they are so obviously right.
3
These differences between the French and the US are emblematic of differences in sexual mores. The French are much more open about sex including the expectation that interactions between men and women will always have sexual overtones. In the US, we are much more repressed, and as a result, sexual innuendo makes us uncomfortable. No one should, however, come away from this article thinking that French women want to be controlled or harassed.
9
This is America.
To come to our senses we need to hear from across Atlantic and from the classiest actress alive, the magnificent Deneuve.
May the force be with you, Catherine!
5
Deneuve's character who gets treated aggressively in the opening scene of Bell de Jour might take issue with the actor's criticism of the movement.
1
do you actually understand that opening scene you mentioned is a fantasy(as in „turn-on“) of said character contrasting her boring life at home?
Apparently the movie has been lost on you.
8
I was introduced to this article in my Facebook news feed. The comments there run in to the hundreds. There was one comment that stood out to me, as it had over a thousand "likes."
A young woman wrote "This is that time when young women need to realize that older women can no longer see. They were awesome feminists FOR THEIR TIME. Their time is over. And this kind of stuff shows that. They can't even IMAGINE a world where men don't intimidate. Like what?" In addition to this, she wrote that it was time for older women to "sit down" and be quiet and let her generation take over the fight.
First and foremost I was embarrassed for her. Her profile strongly suggested that she was a real person. The replies suggest that many younger people agree with her. This isn't the first time I've read that I've seen entire groups of people told to "sit down" and be silent.
Is this seriously the way we think we're going to create a better world? By dismissing others and silencing that which does not fall completely in line with our world view? Older women have something to say. We spoke up when the stakes were much, much higher and the bars were far more firmly in place. The path to the unity that is necessary to create a better society will not be found by silencing people, but by actively listening with open minds.
12
welcome to the world of the angry, spoilt young female. The one positive upside is that in 10 years from now the animal shelters will be empty because no man is going to want to touch them with a ten foot pole. They will be too afraid of these women for their reactions are unpredictable and unstable. It's not worth the risk.
8
They may still be smarting from the Gloria Steinem/Bernie Sanders flap when they were told to grow up and get with the program - and stop running after those boys.
Thank you, Yasmina. Completely agree.
1
If Republicans fear they may lose control of Congress in 2018, they may again ban French Fries from their dining room menu, as they as they did after France opposed the Iraq War. This time, though, instead of substituting Freedom Fries as they did in 2003, they are likely to replace the banned item with She-Asked-For-It-Fries.
If it turns out the Democrats do regain control of Congress in 2018, we may also see French Fries banned from the dining room, this time to be replaced by Twitter Fries in honor of our new, improved system of American justice.
1
I understand the concern over any kind of "witch hunt," but let us be clearer on the fact that men are not being fired simply due to single allegations via Twitter (though I think we should continue to be grateful that such voices are finally given a medium in which they can be heard and discussed).
We are now witnessing silenced, guilt-based institutions that have knowingly allowed what amounts to illegal behavior continue for too long. These seemingly immediate firings are not knee jerk liberal reactions. They are acknowledgements that the few voices that the public has heard actually represent far more that have been silenced through fear and nondisclosure agreements. These companies are even now covering themselves before they can be accused of further protecting the knowingly illegal behavior of certain powerful men.
Rather than be wary of firings that might seem rash, be shocked and horrified by the implied depth of individual history and corporate knowledge that must have informed these individual firings.
8
If the French counter-portest can lead to the rehabilitation of Garrison Keillor I will be grateful.
His total erasure from public broadcasting over what appears to be a minor breach of etiquette is one of the most noteworthy miscarriages of justice in this entire controversy.
7
I am heartbroken about Garrison Keillor. But it sounds like there was more going on than we are hearing much about. According to the Boston Herald: "The president of Minnesota Public Radio has told employees the decision to cut business ties with former 'A Prairie Home Companion' host Keillor resulted from 'multiple allegations' that covered an extended period of time." So disappointing.
5
"while the only thing they did wrong was touching a knee, trying to steal a kiss, or speaking about ‘intimate’ things at a work dinner, or sending messages with sexual connotations to a woman whose feelings were not mutual...”
The point is to get these things to stop. Interpersonal relationships are complex, but the professional setting is not where chances need to be taken.
8
Thank you Catherine.
I have often wondered if I would have survived these new morals. I lived through the late sixties and seventies, the " tune in, turn on, drop out " generation, we were somewhat liberal in our sexual proclivities and attitudes.
I can only imagine I would not have made it through these new standards.
5
What is "new" about not raping women? What is "new" about not sexually harassing another human being. What is "new" about not abusing your power? What is "new" about any of this?
7
Most would not like this in the current environment, but along with workplace harassment, Victim Feminism is also real and false accusations do happen. We cannot live in a society where a genuine disciplinary action or revenge accusations are punished without a due course. There is a need for a balance.
7
Catherine Deneuve is a great actress, classy, intelligent, feminine in an alluring way; all qualities that contributed to her success and her enduring attractiveness. She is also French. Their national morality and ethos is in contrast with that of the United States, perpetually chained by the Puritan heritage brought over by the early settlers who, ironically, fled of all things, religious persecution in Britain. It is entirely predictable that the overreaction of the #metoo movement would result in neo-Puritanical blanket condemnation of both feminine sexuality and male seductive behavior--even in a society that has demanded that men initiate "courtship" and that women are "forward" or "wanton" for taking the initiative. This in no way condones non-consensual touching, unwanted advances after having been rebuffed the first time nor creating a hostile work environment. Let's keep in mind that not too long ago, women in the workplace initiated spreading off-color cartoons or e-mails to their chosen colleagues, male and female, not just men. A sense of balance is missing and what Mme. Deneuve is alluding to here. An actual operating definition of "sexual misconduct" would also be helpful as this amorphous term is continually bandied about in the media. The collective consciousness has been raised. Now is the time to manage the movement so as not to invite a backlash so strong that all progress is erased.
6
male seductive behavior
Wow. I am sure glad to be gay. The mess men and women have made is amazing. Male seductive behavior. What IS that other than straight male privilege?
9
Of course Ms. Deneuve is correct in supporting this letter, although I disagree that the concept of self-victimization. if you view all human relationships as essentially a struggle for power over the other individual, than this movement is basically a fight to take back some of the power males have presumed to be their birthright for a long time. That is not promoting victimization, especially considering the use of the awesome weapon to destroy someone's career without any proof, or a hearing. However, considering that this is a contest, that means that the side under attack has a right to fight back, and should not be criticized for doing so, or for refusing to truckle to the whims of social media.
From a poll taken of Americans but interesting nonetheless, “Among women 18 to 49 years old, 78 percent say “sexual harassment happens in almost all or most workplaces.” But among women 50 or older, the number falls 14 points to 64 percent, which is below the national average.”
My personal experience corroborates this finding - I’ve only heard #metoo backlash sentiment from much older, (always privileged) women. My anecdotal observations may be meaningless but even so, I’m relieved that younger generations are fighting to change this for the youngest. I stand with them, on the right side of history.
9
Flagged for ageism.
3
Yes, it seems that in their era they were playing in a different ball game. Most knew of nothing else but white men controlling everything from government to police to ceos. They could not picture a different world so had to hastily learn how to tolerate a bunch of stuff that the younger gen do not have to experience nearly as frequently today. but this movement clearly shows it has not been eradicated which is why the older generation is probably so confused, scratching their head:’what do they have to complain about?’ Oh we have a lot and we thank your generation for paving the way but there is still much more of the path to uncover.
2
Vive' le France! I don't think I ever encountered an issue with such a broad range of opinions that span both gender, economic and social strata. It will be difficult to make real progress when the range of opinions on what constitutes acceptable versus unacceptable behavior is so diverse. I know men that are staunchly zero tolerance and woman that feel the current response is over blown. Women are from Venus and men from Mars, that we do know. At the very least, the attention to this issue is long overdue and the dialogue is helpful for everyone involved.
2
I think Ms. Deneuve and others make a reasonable point. My parents first met and began dating as coworkers at a hospital. I think that such a union would never happen in the current climate. I personally wouldn't ever consider making an advance towards a female coworker, and I hesitate to even be in conversation with one in the office, even if the topic is business related, without a third party as a "witness" to whatever was said.
4
When I trained 20 years ago as an administrator (for a university), we were told that (mostly male) faculty used to see students, staff, and co-workers, quite straightforwardly, as available sexual and romantic partners, "dates and mates." A very small number of happy marriages had resulted over the years. Nonetheless, as much as some might mourn the passing of this era, students were utterly out of bounds, and dating and mating within an unequal power structure was never going to be straightforward. The default for those looking should be to seek dates and mates outside the workplace.
Because, as we learned, for every contented marriage that starts at work, there are dozens of (mostly) women, and some men, who - in atmospheres that sanction "advances towards co-workers - have been harassed, who have quit or had their careers blighted, or been made to feel like targets rather than valued human beings.
Your female co-workers are thanking you for no longer even considering making an advance.
10
As an older millennial man I mourn the days when flirting at an after work happy hour or smiling at an attractive coworker in the hallway was completely acceptable. Sometimes this would lead to romance and even longer term dating relationships - but no more. These days I completely avoid banter, jokes, and any other conversation that isn't directly related to work. My interactions with women in my office are short and robotic - once we are done talking about work we are done talking period. It just isn't worth the risk since a single misconstrued comment or hurt feelings following a post happy hour hookup could summarily end my career.
10
Congratulations, you have woken up to the new century. You are most welcome to pursue late evening "hookups" outside the workplace. And those women in your office, with whom your interactions are now short and robotic? They are breathing such sighs of relief these days - feel happy for them.
14
If you think dry, impersonal working relationships are productive I'm guessing you don't work with other humans. No one should have to live in fear that a single mispoken or misunderstood word can have dire financial and professional consequences but that's the reality today.
3
Lise, your comment illustrates how sick our society has become.
Slaves in the pre-civil war era were despised less than men these days.
5
This French response is needed. Since when should anyone, no matter how justifiably aggrieved, simply be able to shout an accusation and let social media do the rest? I’m a Progressive but I find myself baffled by the lack of reflection on this process by people who would otherwise be completely appalled if these same actions were taken outside their own socio-political alliances. Groups - virtual or otherwise - are powerful things. And good people, in the wrong place at the wrong time, have been wrongly hanged by other good people seeking necessary redress.
When Senator Al Franken stated, “I know in my heart that nothing I’ve done as a senator, nothing, has brought dishonor on this institution,” we had already conditioned ourselves to reject his statement as beside the point, an irrelevant defense. And to a mob, it is irrelevant! Within the rule of law, however, he may actually have had a point. But how many people even know he said it?
9
This is good, this is a step towards achieving some balance in the discussion.
“Women should be heard and should be believed,” is the #MeToo mantra. OK, yes, but not without condition! Not automatically. Saying it doesn’t make it so. Hard experience tells us that we need to reserve judgement as to the truth of a story. We need to evaluate evidence. We need to take human nature into account. We need to hear both sides. People tell lies - and get the facts wrong unintentionally in many cases. Accusations may be made or distorted for reasons not obvious to anyone who is not very close to the situation.
The right to be heard does not take away our responsibility for the damage our accusations cause to others. Social media make it all too easy to take the leap before the consequences have been considered carefully. Social media accelerate and multiply the impact but apply no algorithm of good judgement. And on the receiving end we are lazy - we like to leap to the conclusion that suits us without doing the work of evaluation. We haven’t got time for that. An actual effort is required for most of us to reserve judgement.
There is a lot to be said for exposing a story or a festering emotional wound in a private conversation with a trusted, wise friend (or perhaps a therapist if you have a good one) before blasting it out to cyberspace. Think hard about the futility and potential cost of a public he-said/she-said contest.
And remember: an enemy is an expensive luxury.
4
There is a cultural context here that isn't obvious. There is rift in France between women like Deneuve and some quite puritanical (some Marxist) feminists-- she is aristocratic and powerful, and her detractors are intellectual and scrappy. It has taken on numerous forms, but mainly it concerns what constitutes a woman's freedom.
1
Thank goodness for the French. We Americans always go to absurd extremes when it comes to just about anything in culture, including social change. I'm grateful that Ms. Deneuve and others are speaking up.
4
Catherine Renueve and the other French women who protested against the extremes of the Me-too movement are not "leading a backlash" or living in a past age were sexual abuse was tolerated. They are adding their weight to the pendulum that needs to swing back from the extremes of a mass catharsis of personal revelation, and indiscriminate career-ending accusations against famous men.
5
It's time to stop the hysterical witch hunt. I'm tired of seeing the men in my life being afraid of every woman. Afraid of being unjustly accused because they were being nice or because someone wants to sue for money. Enough is enough.
6
We should listen to the French. They gave us the Statue of Liberte.
Not only is there no concept of due process in this witch's hunt there is a complete disregard of an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, meaning, the punishment does not fit the crime. Women still want to exert their privileged place in society by demanding extreme punishments for offenses against them. Nor will they talk about what happened, like slinky lingerie, they want to leave the details to the imagination and society, the police, the media do their part. Would a #metoo movement for those punched in the nose ever have legs and be so popular? Of course not. If someone punches you in the nose there is no hesitation to include that detail in police reports or media stories about the attack, but if an attack involves the privates, then we'll keep them guessing and imagining the lurid details.
When women decide to take the law into their own hands they go to extremes and can be viciously violent. You can look this up. I worked in a hospital ER for a few years. Some of the worst domestic violence injuries were inflicted by women against their hated lovers. A few men were shot right in their credentials, Lorena Bobbit with a gun. One guy was run through with a dull machete, by the little woman in his life.
If women want equality we should give it to them.
4
Sounds like Catherine Deneuve suffers from Stockholm Syndrome.
17
I wish #metoo supporters will get what they wish for!
1
I guess she hasn't been on the receiving end of "insistent or clumsy flirting" from a work colleague - or worse, a boss. And I don't recall anyone saying that "gallantry" is chauvinistic or aggressive. A gallant gesture would be holding a door, or pulling out a chair.
The #Metoo movement is about far more egregious acts than that. Catherine est toute melée.
9
One name that's conspicuously absent from the list of signatories to this paean to cluelessness: that of TV journalist Anne Sinclair, ex-wife of the ever-so-gallant Dominque Strauss-Kahn.
7
Ms Deneuve. Quelle une femme!
3
what will happen is a good looking woman ,all dressed up,will not get compliments on how good she looks.men will not bother.
5
Of course! Why complimenting when in return she will sue you and get you fired? Cold and distant treatment is the solution.
4
Thank you, from the bottom of my heart, for not bothering. Thank you for committing to treating women in the workplace as human beings, rather than "good-looking" objects who get all dressed up so you can compliment them. We salute your newfound humanity.
10
This is a woman who defended Roman Polanski. That defense alone disqualifies her from commenting on this topic.
12
Deneuve should schedule a cordial lunch with Kirsten Gillibrand.
6
The last word in “#MeToo”-ism belongs to wacko-fundamentalist Christian Mike Pence, our vice president, who whole-heartedly shouts: “Me too! I told you the Devil’s mischief men and women get up to when they are thrown together unchaperoned in the workplace!” Maybe the majestic Catherine Deneuve can help restore a world where there is a little less emphasis on “me,” and a little more emphasis on “us.”
4
Totally agree with Catherine Deneuve. This country always goes way over the top with any cause and has people banging their tin pots everywhere. She was a stunningly beautiful women in younger years and I would imagine she knows what she's talking about while Oprah gets up and beats her chest in Hollywood and has everyone gushing yet I hazard a guess has never experienced any sexual harassment.
8
Did you just honestly say that OPRAH WINFREY has never experienced sexual harassment?!! She was repeatedly raped as a child by a family member. Your remarks are misinformed and unhelpful to say the least.
7
She is a disgrace. She does not represent France or French women.
7
Ce n'est pas vrai de tout. French women are grown-ups. She is a woman of courage and class to address and angry mob of women who are happy to sue for money. She's a hero.
8
How many times do we need to be reminded that Twitter is not a political forum, but simply a platform for venting public hysteria? Suspicion of the “#MeToo” movement should stem from the simple fact that there is a hashtag in front of it.
4
She defended Roman Polanski. Enough said.
8
It's healthy to hear a different opinion, and it's even better coming from Catherine Deneuve, who, at 74, appears not to have had plastic surgery. In Europe, sexual and romantic matters are more relaxed than in the USA, so it's not surprising to get this blow-back from France.
5
Deneuve has admitted to Leno to having had plastic surgery. I do agree with u that sexual matters r more relaxed in France (and Russia and Israel), but almost always to men's benefit.
2
I wrote “appears”, and that’s the point. She looks her age, unlike so many Hollywood atresses who have had so many surgeries.
1
Perhaps the best thing we can learn from bad sexual behavior is parents should sit their children down, especially mothers, and explain how to seduce the other sex without doing stupid things. Apparently people in power who cross a "stupid" line have no social graces whatever.
In many places getting caught "Jay walking" across the street you will end up in "Jay-walking" school.
Where do we send people who have no idea how to be nice? Where and how do we teach them to get what they want while making the other party happy?
Bravo Catherine!
Bottomline, the MeToo girls can fight all they want but like most wars it will not end well. And because of the lunatic (anti) social media information is at best dubious.
Think about the other war...The War on Trump...no matter how much info the media pukes out the guy still has millions of fans.
Until we can find some middle ground the inhabitants on Earth will for ever bicker, battle, and never accomplish a thing.
I must (sort of) agree with Trump here. All the information being fed to us is either fake or blatantly one-sided.
Oh, and by the way Rose McGowan has always been considered a nut job, and almost as fast as she grabbed back another 15 minutes she will soon disappear again.
Viva La Catherine!
3
Oh, how boring the world would be if our sexuality was reduced to what is permissible in an app, yet how exciting the world would be if women were indeed treated as equals in terms of sexual agency.
6
In my 73 years of taking oxygen into my male lungs, I have always known of Rules of Conduct. They came with the territory, as it were, when one is only one of two male babies on my mom's side of the family since 1873. You learn a lot about the girls of our childhood, the teenage girls "blossoming" before our eyes, and about adult women, when nearly all of your relatives are female.
My dad, ever the gentleman, taught me about opening doors and other signs of respect for the opposite sex. There have also been "boundaries" to be learned, and each person, male and female, has their own boundaries to be respected and it is up to us know the basics and understand the boundaries of the other. Boundaries matter.
I have applauded the #metoo movement, but I have also had some misgivings about the gathering momentum of it. I am all for justice when sexual predation occurs. I am also concerned about how we measure sexual misconduct, such as, boorish behavior. Men, and women, have been behaving badly for thousands of years. In our current times, boorish types are still around. They even climb corporate ladders with some success as office "jokesters" and drinking buddies.
But there are clear boundaries that separate boorishness or, flirtations, from unwanted sexual advances, and worse.
Slow the momentum for the sake of real justice.
Going public with harsh accusations should be carefully weighed before destroying office pranksters and casual flirts.
8
Ms Deneuve is an old woman who hasn't been raped or if she has she has "forgotten it" or chocked it up to the price of beauty and being female. Like her fellow country woman Briget Bardot her grasp of the moment is faulty if not down right bigotted. I love so many things about France but I suspect they intelligensia there will take her side. Bernie Henry Levy is a Jewish man famed intellectuual and some say bully, who some have said is sexist. I suspect maybe...although I have not had the privlege of ever meeting him but his treatment of Sharon Stone belies a Misogyny that runs DEEP. To me he is a huge part of Frances mind set. Ms. Denueve is a Guys Girl plain and simple. Shame.
3
In a Jacobin world, the Jacobins eat each other in an orgy of rage. Unacceptable behavior does not demand a media investigation and a litigation lawyer. A firm resoluteness against the abuses of power is usually sufficient for both sexes. If not, THEN call out the gendarmes.
3
Americans are extremists, and unthinking, emotional reactionaries. That is what is being made clear. But then again, the French have had an entirely different attitude about sex, since the Puritans left Europe to come commit genocide in the New World.
9
How can this happen? How can a person be as lucky as this actress, to have so many available resources and so much time to develop as a person and still be this ugly?
8
I would love to hear some real-world examples of men getting fired, arrested, or their reputations ruined over "winking" at a woman (or otherwise engaging in mild flirtation). People everywhere - even in this comments section - keep citing these fantastical incidents that I have yet to see any reports of. They say the #metoo movement has gotten so out of hand that men are losing their livelihoods due to nothing but innocent, clumsy flirting - where? When?
(If your social skills are so lowbrow as to confuse "winking" with rape, coercion, and assault, something is very wrong.)
21
Here comes the backlash.
3
Now that I have been fully immersed in the #MeToo conversation, can someone explain to me why women expose so much cleavage in general? So many of those 'protest' black dresses at the Golden Globes, in the office, walking down the street.
5
Rape, sexual assault and sexual harassment are not about sex; they're about exercising power over another human being. Ms. Deneuve thinks we don't know the difference between flirting and rape. But we do, even if she doesn't.
13
There's this thing called the justice system. Polanski thumbed his nose at it. I don't feel sorry for him. He ran and thwarted the system, because he believed himself above it.
3
Thank God for Ms Deneuve and French rationality! The letter touches upon all the faults of the #MeToo movement, which should be called the #OhMeTooMeToo! movement. This should be required reading for everyone in the media. It should be discussed in school sex education classes universally. A great subject for 60 Minutes!
5
The New York Times has to decide if it wants to report the news or if its mission is to pervert the news otherwise understood as the events of the day. I fail to find evidence that Deneuve denounced the #MeToo movement. What I read is that she and many others are calling for reason, fairness, and justice. As a three decade reader of the NYTs I am very concerned regarding the Times tendency to jump on band wagons and allowing trending PC rhetoric to take over the Times editorial stance. Actually it makes me ill. And it is a danger to all that the Times states it stands for.
11
Amen Catherine & the other French women! I've been saying the same thing for weeks. Instead of #metoo, how about #enoughalready ? Everyone is walking around on eggshells and taking all the fun out of workplace flirtation. Which is very irritating because workplace flirtation is about the only thing I like about my workplace.
3
Ms. Deneuve is an old lady...who lived thru the good old days of Euro-wood, and Hollywood, when women like her knew no other life but where the male power brokers had near complete control over a starlets life. The casting couch is not a myth, its a real thing. Not always used, but used enough...
If my female boss, or a male one, put a hand on my knee, Id slap it away, and file a lawsuit. Thats how it goes. Its work. Not a bar where we're chatting each other up, agreeing to the social contract of flirting, maybe hooking up. (with unequivocal agreement the whole way)
This aint Ms. Deneuves world anymore. Shes a has been, and isnt in a position to chastize younger women in this newer, not always braver, but way weird world. Will these young ladies stumble? Yes. But its their time, old women like Mrs. D, Streep, etc, etc failed the younger women. They failed amd need to have their icon status revoked! No amount of Oscars (Streep) can excuse her and so many other elder women, their failures as adults.
This whole "thing" has just begun, very few men have been burned by it...many more who should, will not. And right now housands of males are still getting away with their bad behaviors. Which will continue till something Real sticks. Aint nut'n stuck yet.
5
Context is everything. If someone who was my superior "persistently" flirted (?) with me at work even though I repeatedly tried to ignore, change the subject, move away, politely rebuff, basically do everything short of aggressive verbal defense in order to show that the attention was UNWANTED, I would consider their actions harassment. Yes. Rape is a crime and the person should do jail time. For harassment a person should lose their job.
Denueve claims, "Men have been punished summarily, forced out of their jobs when all they did was touch someone’s knee or try to steal a kiss.” My knee. MY KNEE. Not appropriate to touch at work. And if someone tried to steal anything from their place of employment they would be immediately fired. Not sure why trying to take something from a woman should be any different.
Fine. Sexual relations and games between the sexes complicated. But they don't belong in the workplace.
9
Betterangels unwittingly captures a part of the issue that desperately needs to be discussed. The scenario she describes, in which a boss demonstrates sexual interest in a subordinate but just doesn't "get the hint" that the interest is not shared is never, ever going to be an effective strategy. Even if the object of the unwanted advances indeed does "everything short of aggressive verbal defense in order to show that the attention was UNWANTED," this will clearly signal to some that the advances are acceptable. If you really want someone to stop what they are doing, please don't rely on them getting the hint. Tell them! Clear and direct speech is not aggressive. Clear and direct speech is assertive and the best method to employ if you want someone to understand you. Say what you mean! Mean what you say! If your co-worker then continues to hint, suggest, gaze or touch, s/he has been given fair warning and should not be surprised to be summoned to HR.
1
AS a woman I say, #MeToo,Deneuve
1
Full English translation of the letter in Le Monde: https://www.worldcrunch.com/opinion-analysis/full-translation-of-french-...
Sorry, "touching a knee, trying to steal a kiss, or speaking about ‘intimate’ things at a work dinner, or sending messages with sexual connotations" are not "clumsy flirting", those are sexual assaults.
If you stutter or say the wrong name while asking a girl out, that would be clumsy flirting.
7
I was several times abused, insulted or belittled by young black and white women co-workers and superiors in the work place, including the government offices, as an old white man with an accent. I just pitied them. Bad manners and behavior is not only confined to men.
3
Don't we all know!
#UsToo
A commenter quotes this; “…Ms. Deneuve defended Roman Polanski, the director who pleaded guilty in 1977 to having sex with a 13-year-old girl and who was accused by two other women of forcing himself on them when they were under age.”
That was a notorious case. What’s her real motivation? Why would she and any woman ever defend men who abuse or disrespect women? Especially young girls.
So instead of identifying with the victims, do these women somehow identify with men who want to show their ability to dominate and control women? Do they idolize power?
After all, many women vpters seem to admire Trump whose main personality trait is to show the world how he can dominate and control women and everyone else.
We need an op ed by an expert to explain the psychology of this.
9
There are men who are predatory and abusive. There are women who are vengeful and opportunistic. Assigning virtue to women 100% of the time while casting men as evildoers is another form of bias against women.
4
If you touch the knee of a subordinate, it's harassment. If you touch the knee of a friend on a date whom you have reason to believe wants you to touch her knee, it's not (even if you were wrong). It's really not that hard, folks.
13
If a man makes an "unwanted" advance while in a position of power over a woman he advances on, he is using his power to leverage sex with that woman. It doesn't matter how far he gets, nor how wittingly or "klutzy" he acts. What matters is the perception of the woman involved. If the roles were reversed , the rights remain in the employee being harassed. Work is work. Each case is different and each case deserves individual analysis. Ms. Denueve harkens to a time when 90% of her country's people smoked cigarettes, women from other countries who visited France were warned about French men and their overly aggressive gestures and actions and she was a National Sex Object. She may have fond memories of that era; I would bet that millions of French women and past visitors to France have a different recollection...
5
It is, as always in La Belle France, cherchez la femme! Unfortunately Ms. Deneuve does a bit too much victim-blaming that fails to acknowledge the deep sexual trauma that many women confront after rape, incest, or other acts of sexual misconduct. These acts should never be minimized as "accidents" nor should women be told to be resilient and get over it. There has to be a "balance of power" between men and women that allows them to engage in truly "consensual" sexual intimacy based on mutual respect, but, as we've seen, that has not been the pattern that the #MeToo movement has exposed. Well before Harvey Weinstein we had the strange case of Dominique Strauss-Kahn, the French head of the International Monetary Fund, accused of sexually assaulting a New York hotel maid. There, too, French women rallied to a man later revealed to have engaged in sexual orgies. Perhaps it's a different culture, but I recall reading how over a century ago young Sigmund Freud discovered when working in the Paris morgue the many young girls who died of sexual abuse that led to his pioneering work on the psychology of sex.
7
Deneuve missed the point. Perhaps the press in France hasn't covered the details of the men denounced for their terrible and harmful behavior in the last couple of months.
I've not read of a case in which a woman accused a man of inappropriate flirting. The focus here on flirtation is a straw man argument that men in particular want to make because it is so easy to refute.
Flirtation is a two-way street, and couples (hetero-normative or not) do it regularly.
Weinstein, Trump, Moore and others of this ilk did not engage in flirtation. They aggressively and transgressively used wealth and power to humiliate women and satisfy their sexual cravings.
Other men, such as Al Franken, transgressed at a different and lower level. That is like the difference between attempted murder and theft. The thief isn't punished to these same degree, but he still has committed a felony and deserves significant punishment. Franken in particular did not take no for an answer and attempted to punish and humiliate because he was rejected.
Put simply, I can flirt if I believe that the other person is receptive and is clearly returning the interest. If the other person doesn't respond or says no, I must stop. If I want to touch someone, I need to ask.
It isn't that hard.
16
If your flirtations are not being reciprocated, yet continue, you’ve crossed a line. However, to sterilise our interactions with men, even at work, should not be desired end result. Mutual respect is key. Appropriateness is key. Each situation should be judged on its own merits.
Too many men, including former Sen. Franken, are being ruined when we apply today’s strict standards to yesterday’s faux pax. The French love seduction so, of course, they should mourn the loss of a look, a light touch, or murmured compliment between the sexes when done tastefully. The experts on seduction know when they’re not hitting their mark and move on. Subtlety and self-and other-awareness are key. A clod is a clod, but with sensitivity and awareness, it is not a crime.
If you need a button to trap women behind a locked office in order to touch them, you know nothing about seduction and everything about brute force. If you threaten a woman’s career if she does not comply with your wishes, that’s not seduction or clodishness. That’s precalculated brutality. Let’s not be confused.
Seduction is a welcome diversion, even if the seducer or seducee do not want to have sex with one another. Ms. Denevue, I believe, is saying let’s not lose the joy in appreciating what makes us men and women in our daily lives. That spark between us, even if it’s not kindled into a flame. Let’s not lose that, while stamping out harassment and brutality.
10
Ms. Deneuve had the choice, to support the movement, while voicing some cautions, or lead the backlash. The crux of this movement is harassment and rape affecting women’s abilities to succeed in the workplace. And while we can all debate some gray areas, that is not what the movement stands for. Unfortunately, Ms. Deneuve has knowingly chosen to lead the backlash. The last paragraph of her letter is the most telling -- “accidents that affect a woman’s body” -- is that really an accurate translation? Harassment and rape are not “accidents” -- being blackballed and intimidated in the workplace are not “accidents”. And harassment, rape, being blackballed and intimidated are not the “risks and responsibilities” for a woman’s freedom to enter into the workplace. Ms. Deneuve’s response relegates her to the past. Her position as a woman defending this violence is the reason it has lasted as long as it has. Does she really think violence does not affect the victims? The time for blaming the victims and propping up dirty old abusers is over. Bravo to other women of Ms. Deneuve's generation who step up to support the movement.
30
Completely agree.
1
Here in France, the privileged classes always look to their philosophers, then misuse them. As Deneuve does here: “The philosopher Ruwen Ogien defended the freedom to offend as essential to artistic creation. In the same way, we defend a freedom to bother, indispensable to sexual freedom.”
Offending with a work of art is not at all the same as violating someone's body: the two things have been repeatedly lumped together in critical discussions of MeToo, as if women who wish to stop being harassed are simply fascists who hate all freedom of expression.
28
In a world where 52% of American white women voted *for* Trump. I’m not sure I have much appetite for white women actively opposing #metoo #timesup. Maybe they could lend their voices to pay inequality or the fact the women are two times more likely to die from the most serious type of heart attack than men in the year after having one (due to care inequality).
11
Oh, no...
Another valued human being has opened her/his mouth and without apparently much advanced thinking, has said the strangest thing.
Times have changed, power is shifting and yes, correction is in the air...and some over correction.
Like the French Revolution, no?
Perhaps time for another one in France, which is getting too burdened by its past when it comes to things like minority rights, food and sexual assault...
6
Hooray for Ms. Deneuve and the other French women who were not afraid to oppose this brutal witch hunt initiated by and carried forth by the NYT.
5
Makes a lot of sense. #Metoo went too far.
7
In past generations, women immediately smacked men for these transgressions. Can we go back to that?
24
And how many of those women got fired, blacklisted, or lost their careers? How many of those men went on to have other victims? Cool Girls like Deneuve refuse to see what happened to many women who fought back--or didn't have that option.
7
50 years ago I was young and pretty with a lot of red hair that attracted attention. I dressed down, was fit, armed and maintained acute situational awareness while my big strong husband, and equally big strong son, went everywhere without a caution. None of us thought that was fair. Then after 50 I became invisible. It was such a relief. Ms Deneuve may have enjoyed the attention and that is fine, but her lack of empathy for those of us who didn't is crude and selfish. I reserve the B-word for special occasions. This is one of them.
25
If Republicans fear they may lose control of Congress in 2018, they may again ban French Fries from their dining room menu, as they did after France publicly opposed the Iraq War. This time, though, instead of substituting Freedom Fries, as they did in 2003, they are likely to replace the banned item with She-Asked-For-It-Fries.
If it turns out the Democrats do regain control of Congress in 2018, we may also see French Fries banned from the dining room, this time to be replaced by Twitter Fries in honor of our new, improved system of American justice.
Be that as it may, when did America forget that accusations are not the same as established facts, or are we now in an age where the lies of the Trump Administration have so colored our thinking that accusations equal facts and that "alternative facts" is not an oxymoron?
There are extremely serious issues to be discussed, but the media have too often encouraged the soap opera of personalities -- Weinstein, Moore, Franken, Deneuve -- rather than deal with the fundamental issues themselves, clickbait being more profitable than substance.
Instead of articles about NAMES, we need more discussion about the difference between rape and harassment, about what constitutes harassment, about whether women would or would not be better off with a 2018 Congress composed of Republican sleazebags or a Democratic Congress composed of semi-sleazebags, about class differences regarding feminism, and about anything but the rich and famous.
6
I always find it interesting when people like Ms. Denueve find it imperative to speak out in defense of men whose "only crime" was trying to steal a kiss or touch your knee. Where was her outrage or indignation when, for all of history, women were abused, raped, harassed and subordinated by men? Those women did NOTHING at all that was wrong and they lost jobs, suffered public humiliation and stress etc. Why didn't their stories cause her to write an open letter to the press asking for justice on their behalf?
And a defense of Polanski? Ugh. Makes my stomach turn.
22
Key word: steal
1
The messianc self-righteous, inevitably self-victimized because they lack the intellectual capacity to hold opposing thoughts simultaneously, see things only in monochrome befitting stagnant, ossified thought processes and quite possibly heavy doses of self-loathing. For those who debased themselves for riches and fame, pity but certainly not much empathy. For those sanctimonious pretend-Xena warriors for whom the word 'prom' was a four-letter word, uncontrollable smirking.
2
What happened to trial by jury and cross examining witnesses? Thanks to the liberal press, all charges are presented as unquestionable truth. Weinstein is a poor example to base other cases on. He gone to extremes in defending himself already, million dollar payoffs and enlisting services former Isreali intelligence agents, there was no more he could do.
2
It is interesting how the French seem to see this as an attack on their culture, analogous to our anti-smoking laws or our implying that drinking wine all day makes you an alcoholic.
4
Do the French have a right to their own culture within their own country?
2
When women support men who have admitted to being sexually active with children such as Polanski, I always wonder if they are in denial, e.g. unable to recognize the reality of harm done to girls and boys. I have that same reaction to those actresses who support Woody Allen.
However, I understand the pain of allowing oneself to identify with the child.
5
I think it's accurate to say that the #MeToo movement in the US is influenced by our peculiar brand of Puritanism, and Puritanical attitudes when it comes to sex, and that France and other countries have differing views that we have to respect. Even here in the US there is a wide range opinions in terms of what constitutes sexual harassment and how to handle it, even among women, and that people who are the least tolerant of a wide range of male-female interactions, are likely influenced by that residual Puritanism. I think the point of this letter is to note that #MeToo must be viewed in a cultural context, that it could be taken too far, and that it could damage male-female relationships, along with unjustly damaging people's careers. This is a social movement that must embrace self-awareness and nuance if it is to be effective, not just be a reflexive witch hunt of score settling.
10
I'm staying out of this one.
2
As should all smart men. The rattlesnakes are starting to bite each other.
2
Brave woman to stand up to the totalitarians wave, but Ms. Deneuve is right.
A test of intelligence is the capacity to make reasonable distinctions. A request is not an assault. Words do not equal violence.
And the other side of this coin is neglected. How about women who use sex to get what they want? If she conspires with a powerful male to get a position she may not otherwise have, who is the victim? The victim(s) are the women and men passed over. If a woman and I are up for a promotion and she gets it because the decision maker is smitten by her, I am the victim of sexism. Both the woman and the man involved are perpetrators.
Using sex in the workplace is always wrong. But make the reasonable distinctions.
6
Catherine Deneuve can hardly denounce the #MeToo movement after her enthusiastic role in 1967's "Belle de Jour".
2
Deneuve and her views on relations between men and women are dated and harmful to women, but also to men. We need to break out from these heavy-handed proscriptions of how men should act as aggressive, persistent pursuers, and women should be alluring but essentially passive recipients of male attention. Both men and women suffer from this cartoon version of desire. Let us all become fully human and express our interest or desire in respectful ways. True consent exists more easily amidst a society awash in gender equality. Deneuve and her ilk are part of an oppressive sexual status quo that has been normalized by thousands of years of patriarchal dominance.
12
Who are "we" to tell other people how to conduct THEIR personal lives and relationships, please?
1
It’s striking that the headline for this denunciation, at least on the NYT app, is right below the findings from a 1994 rape case, where new DNA testing has identified the man, a known serial rapist, who raped a woman in Prospect Park.
This woman was accused of fabricating her rape by a tabloid journalist who went on to win a Pulitzer and have a Broadway play written about him. Her rape will never be prosecuted because of the statute of limitations and her suit against the journalist who called her a liar was dismissed.
And Deneuve and others are worried about men having their careers damaged.
18
There is something utterly sick when a member of a group that has been historically abused and dehumanized, expresses outrage when the victims dare to stand up and fight back, and who steadfastly supports her oppressors. Catherine Deneuve must have been sexually harassed or assaulted many times in her life to have such low self esteem that she believes the degradation of women as justified.
7
She certainly doesn't look "dehumanized" in the photo. I should look that "dehumanized"...
1
Funny to see from many comments that the fact Mrs Deneuve is French explains
what she ( inevitably) says.
When a person works 40 to 60 hours a week or is in scholl from 7 until 3 or so every day and the only male/female interaction they have is there - then sorry, the mating dance will be danced at work and school. Now what constiturtes offense must be measured carefully. If we are quick to judge and label without due process what are we doing to the natural interaction between the sexes? Of course and without a caveat, agressive overt physical or threatening behavior has always been addressed -but to vilify a person because they are attracted to another - male or female - and that person isn't- is just ludicrous and dangerous. That's the mating game and it has been going on since the begining of time - even our ape ancestors engage in mating rituals.
5
"Gallantry." Yeah, that's Harvey all over.
4
Okay I see too many men in the comment section here saying "Whew FINALLY some sense!" lol.
One of the signers, journalist Elizabeth Levy, expained "If someone touched you in the Metro (subway), ok it’s very unpleasant but should I feel humiliated by that? Come on."
The women penning this letter are saying that UNSOLICITED GROPING does not constitute harrassment. And that women are able to---or at least SHOULD---brush off such incidents as part of life.
Do you really agree with that?
This letter was not the reasonable op-ed y'all are hoping it was.
8
I feel that Catherine Deneuve has missed the point of the #MeToo movement. The difference between a clumsy come-on and sexual harassment is that the latter happens at work. It is not ok to steal a kiss at work or talk about "intimate" things at a work dinner. Power differences will always make this an unacceptable situation for the subordinate - whether that power difference is real or perceived. I'm sorry that Catherine Deneuve and so many women accepts that behavior as a normal part of their jobs.
268
Al Franken was not at work. Kevin Spacey was not at work. As the article says, placing undeserving people in the same category as sex offenders with no chance to defend themselves will end up harming both men AND women. Instead of turning the #MeToo movement, which I absolutely support, into a witch hunt, let's focus on the true victims of sex crimes, the ones who are not famous and do not have a voice.
8
Nowhere in the invitation to participate in the rush to add a #MeToo story was there a stipulation that the behavior either had to have occurred at work or that it had to involve economic power of the man over the woman.
Assault and/or harassment was simply assumed to be whatever the woman said it was without regard to venue and no matter how long ago it allegedly happened.
9
What if I'm a woman who wants to be hit on by my work colleagues? We often some of the most meaningful shared interests with those we work with. Think: Sylvia Plath and Ted Hughes, Marie and Pierre Curie, Laurence Olivier and Vivienne Leigh. Why should the interests of women who want the chance to become romantic partners with their colleagues be subjugated by the interests of those who have qualms about the unequal power dynamic?
9
Disappointing but unsurprising statement. I wish Deneuve and her co-authors would have identified at least one man they think has suffered consequences for "clumsy flirting"; I'm not aware of a single instance of this.
I think the letter says more about French culture than it does about the #MeToo movement or sexual harassment or sexism generally.
11
I will always adore la Deneuve but in this case she needs to be smacked, and not by a male. I am guessing she does not have to fend off as many advances as she did forty years ago. I know I don't.
6
I suspect it's worse than that. I suspect she liked the advances made on her, and assumes that all women do. Can someone break it to her that not all women get their sense of self from the attentions of men?
8
Right. How horrible that some woman somewhere actually LIKES guys and enjoys male attention....
2
Not what I said, me. Re-read and try to understand this time.
1
I hate to say it but I kinda sorta agree with parts of this. NO to harassment at work; NO to harassment of any kind. But then where do we draw the line with flirting? I fear men will be hamstrung and paralyzed that any advance will be perceived as harassment. I would be. I knew the pendulum would swing with a backlash sooner or later.
15
There’s two teams playing in the game of mating, the offense which is expected to try advancing the ball while the defense says “not so fast, buster”. Unlike sports however there’s no agreed upon limits imposed nor ‘zebras’ to call fouls and access penalties. As a teen you’re thrown into the game and expected to somehow know it all. Is it any surprise that the contest is played out so clumsily and often grievous errors committed.?
Perhaps if courtship - basic and advanced - was taught, limits explained, and the natural expectations codified then we – me for sure– would not have made such a hash of it.
3
I'm not sure it's so complicated that it needs a class. It's safe to assume you can't reliably guess what someone else is thinking or feeling, so ask them if they are interested before acting as if they might be. To put yourself in the shoes of someone who might not be interested, imagine being approached by a gay man interested in you. How would you want to be asked? How would you want your suitor to respond - by getting angry, by crying, by ignoring your "no" and stealing a kiss anyway? Or would you want it to be a low key and easy thing to say, "no thanks" and not have to worry about it?
4
Bravo Ms Deneuve. A crime is crime and there are very unarguable circumstances sometimes. But all of this does smack of totalitarian state. Who gets to judge? Who deems what is flirting vs. offensive and a crime? A boy wears a hoodie to school with the Playboy bunny logo on it. Is that offensive to girls? Neoliberalism , Neonazism--all the same.
As for Polanski, to me he is awful HOWEVER, it was the 1970s, Jodi Foster was 12? 14? when she appeared as the street walker in TAxi Driver--there wasn't much of huge public outcry about that sexual transgression on film. The Polanski girl was at a party with her mom--there were drugs, alcohol, hot tubs, etc etc. I mean ? does no one bear any moral responsibility about allowing a 13 year old girl around that environment! They were ALL guilty at that party at his house. Including her mom!
9
This is more than just a dress up night for the Golden Globes. However, when Hollywood get involved it seems hollow. All the women in black dresses--I get the statement, but see through gowns and showing a little too much skin--appeared hyprocritical. If you don't want a wolf to get you, do put out bait.
11
so...people who get mugged can be blamed for the mugging if they are carrying a wallet or are dressed as if they might be rich? "Don't you know that's like candy to a mugger?"
5
Tricky stuff. WHO KNEW SEXUALITY COULD BE SO COMPLICATED?
I tend to agree, RAPE is easy to condemn but what is "unwanted attention" or the crime of touching another person and where they are touched.
I do believe we are seeing some people justly being outed for horrible behavior but then some others with lesser misbehaviors get lumped in with the "rapists" and being destroyed for actions that best qualify as tacky or offensive.
9
Would someone womansplain to me why women are still invested in the idea of a unified women's movement? Why should we expect an entire gender to agree on anything? Those 53% of white women voted for Trump obviously do not think sexual harassment is a pressing issue. Like many men and many women, I happen to think that women deserve pay equity, reproductive rights, paid family leave, funding for processing rape kits, and legal protection against discrimination, and those issues factor into my decisions about who to vote for. Those are basic human rights and quality-of-life issues, but can one really call them "women's issues" when so many women are so indifferent to them that they would vote for a sexual predator? Maybe it's time to admit that there are no universal issues that unite all women, since many women, despite having what some would characterize as a common enemy in the patriarchy, would rather base their political affiliations on factors other than gender. Does it really serve anybody to state that the French women who signed this letter or any women who agrees with it as suffering from "internalized misogyny"? You're really comfortable saying that a lot of strong, smart, professional women are too brainwashed to know their own mind? I suppose you can't call it mansplaining if a woman does it, but it sure sounds like it comes from a similar attitude of privilege and condescension.
6
Vive la difference.
This letter of Deneuve and the French women speaks volume about the cultural difference between the French as well as Europeans in general and the Americans. This European attitude is summed up very succinctly as “a woman can, in the same day, lead a professional team and enjoy being the sexual object of a man, without being a ‘promiscuous woman,’ nor a vile accomplice of patriarchy.” And that women must liberate themselves from being self-victimization. “Accidents that can affect a woman’s body do not necessarily affect her dignity and must not, as hard as they can be, necessarily make her a perpetual victim.”
The American culture is peppered with strains of sexual repression, religious salvation, and increasingly an us vs them attitude have made sexual violence against women worse. The danger is that the Metoo movement would become militant in its approach to improve relationships between American men and women.
12
I do not interact with women either at work or in my personal life anymore since the #metoo movement started. Not because my behavior is outside of acceptable contact or that I am expressing interest. To me, it's just not worth risking someone else's misinterpretation of my words or actions. I just don't want to engage in any way. Women can rule the world as far as I'm concerned, I don't want any part of it.
5
What is wrong with the French? Did the two German occupations in the 20th century, when French women had to be at the mercy of the occupiers, alter their psychology at a very deep level?
9
I'm surprised that the mayor of New York City still has a job. After all he admittedly stalked his current wife and 'stole a kiss'. Good think it worked out for him in the end. If it hadn't, he would also be subject to #MeToo harassment today and be forced to resign for the improprieties of his youth.
9
Men should have to bear the "risks and responsibilities" of their "freedom" as well.
17
"while the only thing they did wrong was touching a knee, trying to steal a kiss, or speaking about ‘intimate’ things at a work dinner, or sending messages with sexual connotations to a woman whose feelings were not mutual,”
There is no justification for this sort of behaviour in the workplace. There just isn't.
10
The level of discussion in the US on this topic is at a kindergarten level compared to France and elsewhere, mainly because of a media that also operates at a kindergarten level.
13
Catherine Deneuve may be a talented actress but she has no common sense and also, perhaps having lived too many years as a super-famous multi-millionaire, no grasp of the realities of most women's lives. I gather she doesn't identify with them either. Her comments are nonsense.
Unfortunately we're seeing more and more of this rubbish. Claims that the lots of "innocent" men are being destroyed because of one misplaced word or unwelcome wink. Who? Name one! Every man who has gotten in trouble via MeToo has been accused by multiple people and the accusations consistently involve far more than a wink or an innocent compliment. Over and over, we hear that there is a witch hunt. Really? The witch trials involved the imprisonment, torture & killing of people (nearly all women) who were accused of a completely fictitious crime, a crime they could not have committed even if they wanted to because it was fantasy. The MeToo accused have committed actual offenses yet not one of them is dead, in jail or in most cases even in major suffering. They have lost their job and are probably right now sitting in their Hampton "cottages" writing a self-justifying book. Nothing has happened to them beyond some well justified social opprobrium. It is classic though that in the male world of false equivalence an abusive man's embarrassment & career damage is considered equivalent to a completely innocent woman being imprisoned, tortured and executed.
31
If I could recommend this comment a 100 times I would!
5
I agree with betterangels!! Best comment yet.
3
Deneuve and her supporters raise critical questions that have heretofore been ignored. Most significantly, will we allow our opportunity for lasting change to be perceived as a witch hunt? Will we allow it to be hijacked by would-be political candidates, conservatives, or religious groups?
If we are not thoughtful and mature, that is precisely what will occur.
#MeToo and Time'sUp indeed, are valuable. Historically however, women reflexively reacting in anger...has always been turned against us. So has our pattern of turning against one another. I teach relationship courses; when I ask men why they don’t trust women…their response is often, “because I see women don’t trust one another.”
This may be a difficult truth, but it may also be precisely what is in our way. We must be willing to treat one another with equanimity.
To date we’ve been unwilling to see difficult truths and realities, to look below the surface. While Oprah's Golden Globes speech was a powerful moment – and indeed, Oprah has made valuable contributions to the world – why has she not used her extraordinary media platform and resources to end sexual harassment before now?
I too, have been molested and harassed, so I speak from significant personal experience. And I can share from both personal and professional understanding, we must be willing to see difficult truths and realities, to heal ourselves…and to partnership with men to make lasting, worthwhile, powerful change. No more Al Franken's.
3
Women’s anger has always been condemned because it’s powerful.
If men are offended that millenia of oppression and abuse have angered women, so what? They can be offended and I will be angry.
3
This too shall pass. 20 years from now things will be the same.
1
This article is a good remember that there are generational, cultural and personal differences in the understanding of what constitutes a sexual misconduct. The greater the #metoo movement becomes, the more likely it is that we will encounter women who feel that, for example, flirting at work, no matter how clumsily, does not mean a co-worker should be labeled sex-offender, fired and publicly shamed.
At the very least, the "denouncement" by Catherine Deneuve and her peers indicates that embracing a prescriptive approach by policing an exhaustive list of unacceptable behaviors is not the way to go. Tolerance zero does not mean there can't be but one single universal interpretation of what constitutes sexual misconduct.
Also, should we be surprised that some see a similarity between #metoo and the religious extremist? If so, now is a good time, as a mental experiment, to consider the differences between declaring, from a place of moral authority, that knee touching is inappropriate and the fatwas issued by Islamist authority as described by Kamel Daoub in it's op-ed "The Sexual Misery of the Arab World" (nytimes, Feb 12 2016).
Women don't need to be told what abuse looks like to know when it's there. What they need is to know they can speak up. They need to know that when they push back against the powerful, we will rise and stand by them no matter our differences of opinions. They need to know they will be believed, not judged.
3
The problem is not whether sexual harassment has to be accepted as the price of freedom. The problem is designing a flexible spectrum of sanctions to deal with associated problems of evidence and due process.
An alleged single unwanted touch to a knee? Probably no sanction. Repeated alleged touches to a single knee? Stay away from that woman (or man) for a meaningful period. Not only is the remedy not too harsh for the accused - indeed, were the allegations false he should be delighted to comply - , but now we have an event we can easily detect and punish; did you stay away from her? Repeated touches to many knees? Paid leave for a week, with the understanding that sanctions will escalate if this continues.
The key here is that harassment << assault << rape. Since all involve a private encounter of which society approves, if consensual, we need to avoid devastating sanctions without sufficiently strong evidence and proof. Contrary to what some harsher voices have suggested, being expelled from college for sexual misconduct is a devastating, life-changing sanction, not to be applied unless there is a high degree of confidence the misconduct occurred. Avoiding a particular student or dormitory, dropping a class, being on probation for potentially much greater sanctions; these are all remedies we can apply with less concern for certainty. A habitual, aggressive flirt is no rapist, but s/he needs to dealt with firmly nonetheless.
1
I salute Catherine DeNeuve for being willing to stand up for an opinion that is not currently popular.
Remember, the laws of physics are not determined by a vote. And millions of women chanting me too is less accurate than a trial with 12 jurors.
It disturbs me that the media are so quick to rush to judgment. Yes, Harvey Weinstein belongs in jail. But one case, or even two does not make a trend.
And in many of the other cases, the accusers are anonymous, and the accusations would be difficult to support with evidence.
In most fields of work, the workplace is highly competitive. There is ample motivation for destroying somebody elses career through gossip or an unsupported accusation. This is particularly true if the person making the accusation is reasonably certain the accusation will never be checked.
We see careers destroyed by comedians on late night talk shows. There are efforts to pile on, almost as though the public gets enjoyment out of public humiliation.
I saw a homeless man in the park yesterday. He was breaking three laws.
His dog was without a leash. He must have parked his van or camper someplace in the city, thereby violating our laws---it is impossible to legally park a camper in our city unless it is on your own property.
And he smelled to high heavens. And therefore he was guilty of harassing any woman who might pass by.
Sexual harassment laws are laws which discriminate against men, and women often ridicule men who are poor.
3
As a 65 year old that has experienced multiple sexual assaults, harassments and a rape in my lifetime, I agree with Ms. Deneuve. I first felt Me Too went too far with Al Franken. I intuitively felt that the day the first accuser came forward. And when I expressed that to my friends, they jumped all over me as if I was not respectful to the movement, despite the fact that I am a Me Too person myself. I thought that because I am a Me Too person that I had a unique vantage point from where to perceive this from. Well, in time, many of my friends came around to realizing that Franken shouldn't be put in the same kettle of fish as Weinstein, Louis CK and Trump, etc. I agree with Ms. Deneuve, that we must be very careful to not be judge and jury in social media, and that, of course, perpetrators should be punished to the full extent of the law, but that minor sexual misconduct needs to be perceived through a different lens.
10
Hurrah for Deneuve. About time some sanity entered the arena. Too easy to make false public accusations. Too easy to mis-remember an event or misinterpret. Too easy to allow the good looking HS quarterback to be flirtatious and enjoy it, then slap the tuba player for the same. Rape is a crime. And persistent harassment or offering quid pro quo arrangements are either crimes or offenses worthy of firing. But a stolen kiss should lead to a ruined career? A pass in a bar?
And unfortunately, I know women who have invented out of whole cloth events where they claim they were victims of sexual predators. And I know women who flirt and otherwise use their sexual charms to get their way professionally.
Let's give women the power to fend for themselves. If a man makes a pass at work, a co-worker or boss, should the first step be to call HR? How about a simple no thanks. Then if it persists beyond what any reasonable person would say is reasonable, maybe HR. But haven't we all known guys who are love struck? Should that be a crime or something someone should be fired over.
In my H School there was a guy who was head over heels in love with a girl. She didn't feel the same but they'd virtually grown up together and were friends first and she wanted it to stay that way. He lived with that but he didn't get over her. He followed her around like a puppy. Harmless. Should he have been expelled or made a social pariah? No. And he wasn't.
8
I believe there are two primary objections Mrs. Deneuve puts forward against the #metoo movement:
Firstly, there's the criticism that there is no due process: women accuse men of misconduct which ranges on a huge scale from inappropriate topics at work all the way to rape and the accused face consequences without being able to tell their side of the story. That, I believe, is a valid criticism.
Secondly, however, she says that men (and women) should be given the freedom to "flirt" and make other advances on each other. Here however, I think she misses the point: it is all about context. If I tell a random girl in the Subway that I like her smile and ask her kindly if I would be allowed to invite her for dinner - that should indeed be acceptable, she is free to refuse or accept. However, if I do the same thing to my intern or other subordinate it is an entirely different story as power dynamics come into play - and it should never be acceptable.
9
It is also advisable that women obey the dress code in the office by not over displaying their feminine features inappropriately and trying to be sexy which may arouse the sexual instinct of some of their immature male counterparts, not to mention some inviting behavior, such as coming very close to their male co-workers.
8
That's a double-edged sword. It's not up to men to tell women how to dress. We are not in the Middle East where female oppression is near total.
Sorry, it's up to us to keep our hormonal responses under control. It may be hard sometimes, but it can be done.
That said, the way someone dresses can also send a signal that could be interpreted as invitational. In that case, inquiry must be allowed and not construed as harassment.
5
In France there is a history of easy complicity and feigned innocence. Heaven forbid if the French lose their reputation for being "enlightened" about such matters.
7
We all know clumsy flirting isn't the same as we all know clumsy flirting isn't necessarily the same as sexual assault. Clumsy flirting, though, is wrong when there's a power difference between individuals in the workplace. Sexual assault, anywhere, is wrong.
I don't need the star of Belle de Jour - a pun on "lady of the night - to tell me the difference between flirting and sexual assault or what constitutes inappropriate behavior.
And frankly, most of us who know about Roman Polanski, whether or not we admire his professional work as a director, also know that there is no defense of his rape of a 13 year old girl. Dengue epidemic and some of her sisters appear to have been brainwashed by the system they have lived under.
8
Meryl Streep and many of the stars of the #MeToo movement have come out strongly in defense of Roman Polanski. Look it up
2
Accusations need to be vetted but unfortunately for Deneuve and her retro crew the reality is that abuse by men is more the rule than the exception. Nice try but nobody's buying it.
7
Oh, this is excellent to hear! I fully support the movement to expose and reduce the prevalence of sexual misconduct everywhere. No person should have to put up with sexual harassment or violence. HOWEVER, we must also be careful to maintain balance and responsibility when dealing with social media accusations. We cannot allow a “witch hunt” to destroy our society, especially when the person accused cannot defend himself or herself adequately and justly. Please please please review and recognize the constitution, especially amendments that protect the accused (#5, #6, and #8)!
5
As Matt Damon, Bret Stephens, and most recently, Daphne Merkin have said, there are levels of sexual misbehavior---levels that deserve different levels of punishment, just as normal justice dictates. Making an attempted kiss or a blundering sexual comment equivalent with rape is ridiculous. And public shaming is what they used to do in the days of the stockade, over 200 years ago. It's dismaying that this practice has now come back in vogue, with the ease of an social-media posting.
3
Deneuve's reasoning may not be acceptable to many Americans, and this points to the cultural and historical differences between France and the US. The French treasure their individual liberties and hold bad memories of the upheavals caused by denunciations during the Revolution and Nazi occupation. Americans are litigious and puritanical - a mindset that leads to an aggressive promotion of individual virtues. Being morally offended about something is just a normal part of the American experience.
4
Regarding this anti-abuse "movement", I find a bit of hypocrisy.
Ok. Start chosing ugly and fat women and men as news presenters - for instance - and I'll believe in all your good wishes.
The fact is many actresses and actors (as many journalists, or business executives, or workers) trade with their appearance/body. To what extent is that legitimate? Only if you achieve your goals, it seems.
So we have an actor being accused JUST after he wins a Golden Globe, but not - perhaps years - before, when the supposed crime took place: come on.
3
My respect of Denueve is gone-- it seems she is stuck in the past, and a privileged past, at that.
She and the other women who signed should be deeply ashamed of themselves.
9
Rape is a crime. So is sexual harassment when that clumsy flirting doesn't stop because the person doing it decides to continue after being told no.
The biggest issues here are not all sexual. They have to do with power and too many men in power (along with women who have power) abuse it. Whether you are male or female, if your boss makes advances towards you that aren't welcome you are going to worry what will happen to your job if you say anything. Most likely you will, if you can, look for another job.
No one, male or female should have to tolerate being afraid on the job, in public places, at home, or just living simply because sexual harassment is the norm. The reason women experience more harassment is because of how our societies view women and men: women have been considered property and those attitudes (the same ones that still look at children as property) are alive and well today.
78
What do views on women have to do with children? It is wrong to treat women as if they were children, but why should it be wrong to treat children as what they are?
1
Children aren't property any more than women are property. Yet somehow that's how both are treated more often than not.
4
I guess these actresses sticking of for the men are afraid of change. Funny how we grow attached to the things that keep us down.
53
Finally, someone is challenging the #metoo movement, pointing out that not only is the movement presuming the total victimization and infantilization of women but asking the question, WHERE IS DUE PROCESS in all of this? Since when is it okay to fire someone over hearsay?
159
Since always? Your employer has never been required to give you “due process” when making personnel decisions.
7
Due process 2018:
Accusation = conviction = social ostracism= career destruction (= ?suicide?).
See, it’s all good. And quick, since justice delayed is justice denied.
Apart from being facetious, most rape/ sexual assault convictions are based on contradictory hearsay which is the only source of Mens Rea. Circumstantial evidence may or may not provide the Actus Rea. Most rapists are not considerate enough to video record the crime (the Vanderbilt football players being a notable exception).
3
Where was anything remotely resembling "due process" afforded to the millions of women who have been repeatedly victimized by men...under a myriad of conditions? It might be easy to sit upon a pedestal if you're one of the last remaining women on the planet who has never been exposed to some level of abuse; however, if I were as fortunate as you seem to be, I believe I'd just keep my mouth shut.
4
As a woman, as a lover of French cinema, as a lover of Bunuel's cinema, as a lover of Simone de Beauvoir... I completely agree with this piece.
On a related note, think of a film like Paul Verhoeven's "Elle"- it can never be made and taught in the US. And we have a myopic feminism to thank for that!
43
We need to reach a happy medium, sorta speak, between these women's opinion and reporting men for inappropriate conduct like putting their hand on a knee or butt ONCE and did not respond to being told "no." I believe the legal point in a work related case is if the act(s) created a hostile work environment. At the same time, work places should offer more support to women in learning how to deal with unwanted attention/actions.
15
Although I understand Ms. Deneuve's reaction to the absolute #metoo campaign, the conversation and the aggressive demand of a "coming out" for these man was absolutely necessary so that we could start having a conversation about what is what is NOT appropriate. It got the ball rolling, so the whole movement is successful, in my personal opinion. Let's see where it takes us!
33
Exactly what Deneuve and her co-authors say, fourth sentence of their letter: "It was necessary."
1
Some of the accused are complicit. Men like Louis CK need to stop apologizing every time someone in the world claims to be offended by something they did sometime in their life.
But the letter is correct that the media-fed cult of victimhood and blaming has gone too far.
29
Catherine Deneuve has lived a privilege life. However I am sure that she has not escaped unwanted male attention, harassment, sexual assault. By saying the #MeToo Movement is unfair to certain men, she is betraying her privileged ideas and she is betraying all women.
17
No, she is not betraying anyone. She is being fair, which is a lot more than most women and men can be. Just as when FDR was accused of betraying his class when he started Social Security, but he was only being fair, which is not well seeing by most predatory persons of any sex.
2
Bless Catherine Deneuve and her co-signatories for taking a stand against the mass hysteria of the #me-too movement. Thanks NYT for providing the link to the letter in Le Monde.
56
Yuck, sounds like they come from the 19th century! They are so missing the point so I feel sorry for the young French women or men for that matter.
45
Meanwhile, Mark Wahlberg was paid $1.5 million for reshooting his scenes in All the Money in the World, while Michelle Williams was paid an $80 per diem totaling less than $1,000. Men are still in power. They do not need Catherine Deneuve's protection.
There is something so pathetic to me that some women will fail to stand up for others on the off chance that they might forego a few seconds of ego-burnishing flirtation.
80
Maybe women don’t know how to negotiate. If Michelle Williams settled for 80/day and Wahlberg didn’t, that’s not sexism, that’s negotiation.
2
I agree with you. Women who give away their own power sadden me the most.
2
"Michelle Williams was paid an $80 per diem totaling less than $1,000"
Has it ever occurred to you that maybe $80 per diem is what Ms. Williams is worth as an actress, not as a woman. While Wahlberg is worth $1.5 million as an actor not as a man.
Equal pay for equal work means the work's worth not the time on the set. In this sense, one scene from a Deneuve movie is worth more than Oprah's whole screen time.
1
Basically she thinks we're all idiots and can't tell the difference between actual sexual harassment and awkward flirting, and therefore we should just move on.
Yes, there are going to be some overcorrections, but as a whole, this movement is positive, necessary, and long overdue.
85
The problem of abuse is much wider than sexual harassment of women. Children, male and female, are sexually abused too. Especially children who even cannot know, realize and remember that they have been sexually abused. Making this only a women's problem is unfair.
32
"Children, male and female, are sexually abused too. "
Often due to the neglect and ignorance of their fathers and mothers.
1
She's absolutely right.
Next!
36
The women of the US film industry ('Hollywood') only ever publicly recognized the issue of sexual misconduct, harrassment, and sex-based crime until the focus turned on their industry. This says to me that, their current championing of these issues (e.g. appearing on the Golden Globe red carpet with female activists for women-specific causes) are a masquerade to gain benefit themselves. US history is replete with incidences and a culture of sexual assault and rape, from centuries of enslaved women being routinely raped to present day examples of so-called 'high-profile' incidents and many unreported incidents. Yet, despite these true stories being well known, the women of the US film industry never saw fit to use their professional capacity to tell these stories. Never. Until now, and suddenly they want to be regarded as beacons of light shining brightly and bravely. We'll see whether they dare to use their professional skills to actually tell the 'less glamorous' versions of these stories of the physical, mental, cultural and professional damage of sex-based crimes and sexual aggression against women or if this is just a ploy to raise their own already-significantly highly levels of pay.
13
No, clumsy flirting is not a crime. However, I shouldn't have to deal with clumsy pickup lines and sexual conversations AT WORK. That's they key distinguishing factor that seems to be missing in this letter. Work is not the place for "touching a knee, trying to steal a kiss, or speaking about ‘intimate’ things at a work dinner, or sending messages with sexual connotations to a woman whose feelings were not mutual." Even more, I shouldn't have to deal with the aforementioned actions from someone who has power over my financial wellbeing and career.
I am sick of the constant refrain that women are going to destroy men who make a flirtatious comment and don't understand the difference between awkward flirting and sexual assault. That's just insulting. Believe me, we know the difference. Women have a hard enough time being taken seriously when it comes to sexual harassment and assault; we don't need other women telling us to just deal with it and not overreact.
105
Thank you! This comment is spot on. MeToo is not about innocent flirting in social contexts. It is about sexual abuse at school and work, where men are abusing power to in effect extort sex from unwilling women by putting their career and their ability to make a living in jeopardy if they say no.
10
"sexual conversations AT WORK."
Ditto for cellphones! Who cares?
If you want to be taken seriously stop trying to get attention showing your body and using enticing make up, and try getting attention with the quality and quantity of your work.
1
Two axioms have been disregarded in this whole conversation. Innocent until proven guilty and there are two sides to every story. There are pigs such as Weinstein where the seriousness and number of accusers make the allegations undeniable. There are now men, such as the University of Arizona head coach, being fired based on alleged misconduct with a single woman who refused to cooperate with investigators and was apparently not interested in any action. In most of these cases, I wasn't there and there isn't any physical or documentary evidence of the alleged misconduct much less witnesses. I am shocked by the number of women who have been abused. I am equally shocked that lives are being ruined based on one person's version of events, from years and ofttimes decades earlier. Hopefully in this climate women will feel empowered to report the conduct promptly so that it can be investigated and punishment meted out.
356
The so called "metoo" business is little more then Victorianism raising it;s fearsome gray head again. Women, and many girls, who missed out on the 60's and many very angry feminists are trying to, again, enter the mainstream of Western civilization by using a few alleged incidents among a tiny minority of men & women to insist that all men are crude, ill mannered ape like thugs. That "our time has come" and men will be . . ? What? Eliminated?
It grows more and more like a racist rising to insist on the destruction and or legal "control" of men. Each time a man falls-if a woman takes his place, figurative victory rockets are set off.
Women need to recall these men are their son's, too. They can no more do without us and deny they created us , then the Amazons, of Greek mythology, could. This may,again, create another 50 year period of retreat from feminism as absolutism-similar to what occurred after the early '70's when Feminism became a near curse upon all ambitious women.
Think with your heads about long term repercussions-Otherwise women will again be denying feminism, as terrified men-(afraid of jail)- retreat from angry and ambitious women. That is probably how much of this began-(again . . .)
3
David's response to the article warrants a response.
1. A presumption of innocence doesn't apply here. It is a tenet of our judicial system and is connected to the notions of guilt or innocence in criminal prosecutions, not the broader sense of responsibility: responsible, not responsible, or irresponsible. All criminal prosecutions determine is guilty or not-proven. What about conduct that we may not wish to treat as criminal, or fall short in some technical way as "beyond a reasonable doubt," but still need to address short of prosecution. Nor does that presumption have any application to civil responsibility for offensive conduct that falls short of criminal.
2. The absence of third-party witnesses, corroborating testimony, or circumstantial evidence doesn't mean it did or didn't happen. (As the sage once said, "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." Testimony by the victim is evidence. Testimony by the accused is evidence. The conduct often takes place in private, so it's not surprising that there might not be other evidence. I do not sense that you believe that private conduct can never be demonstrated.
So, I take your comment as the beginning to a conversation, not as a stubborn dismissal of the problems the victims are describing.
6
innocent until proven guilty is a legal burden of proof standard we use in legal courts and there's no reason to use such a thing in the context of the public courts of opinion. also note that it seems like the majority if not almost all of the men who've stepped down or been fired are either going willingly or haven't denied it.
Your single example of your coach getting fired by your school, is one case. Anyway the coach has contractual and other legal protections.
if you're really against 'innocent' people being tried in the press, then I assume you believe the perp walk should be illegal - I agree. Names and photos of criminals should be released if and when the person is convicted.
3
"Touching a knee, trying to steal a kiss, or speaking about ‘intimate’ things at a work dinner, or sending messages with sexual connotations to a woman whose feelings were not mutual" are not (and should not) be problems when they happen on occasion, between a man and different women. They are a problem when they happen repeatedly, between a man and the same woman or in a pattern between the same man and different women.
Perhaps the French, with their famous combination of Cartesian logic and sexual libertinism, cannot understand how anyone could define a pattern or repeated behavior that would give rise to complaints. If so, that is a problem for the French to figure out themselves. Americans and the British, with their shared system of common law and logic-based problem-solving, can and should be held to higher standards.
16
What we need is a modern level setting of norms around sexuality and relationships in the workplace. What we got was a witch hunt that resembled McCarthyism more than progress.
As many point out in these comments, the mores of the '70's are far out of date, so maybe Catherine Deneuve is not the right one to propose a counterpoint to #me too. But I liked the statement in the op-ed by Daphne Merkin that many have "had it with the reflexive and unnuanced sense of outrage".
We don't need pigs, but we are have not been a nation of Puritans for a very long time.
20
It is incorrect to suggest that owing to different mores of the 1970s, sexual harassment should be viewed differently by older women or men than by those struggling in the workplace today. I was harassed by men in positions of power in the 1970s - professors, employers, etc., - and it was improper then just as it is improper now. Women are finding their voices to speak out about it and for once people are actually listening. That is the only difference between now and then.
4
What are the limits of flirtation?
It varies from culture to culture.
I think the American movement may be going a bit overboard,
but that's probably a good thing - at least for the time being.
Men will have to change: that's evident.
Agressive women, too...
11
All the stolen glances, attempts at kissing, "enjoyment of being a sexual object, flirting, suggestive talk, fine. So long as (a) welcomed wholeheartedly by both parties involved, (b) ceasing immediately, and not repeating in future, when one party says no, and (c) never, ever, done at school or at work. Never - even if condition (a) has been satisfied. What some commentators don't seem to realize is that sexualization in a teaching situation, or in the workplace, hurts everyone - most profoundly the victim of harassment, but also bystanders and non-participants. It is an environmental poison that produces one hundred percent collateral damage.
That the French have to debate whether there should be a law specifying a minimum age of consent, brought in the context of the judiciary refusing to prosecute a man for raping an 11-year-old, does cast, shall we say, some black shadows on those famously liberated sexual attitudes in France.
30
Ms Deneuve, this is strictly a question of yes or no in which everything that isn't Yes means NO. Consenting adult will still have their fun. No one's attitudes about private adult sex has changed. Except the part where 'all parties must agree', which will now rigorously be enforced.
12
The missing word here is "chronic."
Ms. Deneuve's letter claims that powerful men lost their jobs "while the only thing they did wrong was touching a knee, trying to steal a kiss, or speaking about ‘intimate’ things at a work dinner, or sending messages with sexual connotations to a woman whose feelings were not mutual" – but many of them did these things not once, not twice, but chronically.
An occasional misstep may be nothing more than that: a fumble, a bumbling mistake – but a pattern of harassment is an indication of character.
28
Well done , Catherine Deneuve! The hypocrisy in this current witch hunt against men who dared make advances that turned out to be unwanted is beyond disgusting. Because the moral of the story is: "if the guy's cute and I'm in the mood, then it's cool; but if he's unattractive and I happen not to be in the mood, then it's assault". This has gone far beyond penalizing the actual sexual predators like Weinstein, and has become utterly toxic to the natural relations between men and women.
553
That's how consent works though honey. If someone is unattractive to another, and the other doesn't want that someone's kisses, touches, or sexual comments, that someone should stop.
Being able to have sexual relationships with uninterested people is not some God given right the way you seem to think it is.
16
This is not a "witch hunt". Women have been subjected to centuries of abuses of power and you can't tolerate any push back without lashing out. My empathy is with the women.
Catherine represents a sub group of women who have thrived in the existing environment because she is a "winner" at that system. For too long, women like her have not had the backs of the victims of abuse for their own selfish reasons. Shame on her and other woman who prefer to promote themselves at the expense of victims.
19
Denis. Wrong. What in any gods name is "natural relations"? Let me guess you define it as a male, and only see the male POV, as a right to pursue and conquer...?
The core problem is that "natural relations" has been wholly defined by the Patriarchy...too often by putting vulnerable, weak, submissive, and too young archetypes in the female role. Women have had very little say in how males are to view and pursue them. Fighting to break out of mysoginist roles, deemed too weak and ill equipped for positions of power, etc.
8
I guess flirting must be different in France. When a man “steals a kiss,” it sounds more like he’s imposing himself on a woman than engaging in a consensual act. By Deneuve’s standards, Trump was VERY flirtatious with a number of women. Too bad they didn’t find all that “flirting”’attractive....Sad!
20
That isn't what she is saying, indeed, Ms. Deneuve went out of her way to imply as much. Your misinterpretation of her remarks is willful and reflective of the weakness of your position. The main difference, perhaps, between Ms. Deneuve and most American women is that she doesn't require a manual and likes it more than annual.
2
The stupidity of Ms. Deneuve and company is stunning. "Insistent" flirting is not a crime--no, it isn't, but it is harassment, as is talking about "intimate" things at a work dinner, touching a knee, etc., all of which are, to say the least, inappropriate especially when there is an unequal power dynamic involved, as there often is. How difficult is this to comprehend?
68
There are no animal in the world where the male is not flirting the female, humans sometimes handle it badly.
1
This is what we call a "teachable moment".
The letter speaks as though there is an unmovable block that cannot be surmounted: men's nature. I suggest instead, that this is instead a coda, one rapidly becoming outdated. I speak of the *belief* that men are the pursuers and women are prey.
I remember listening to "Paradise by the Dashboard Light" at 15 and finding it instructive. "Oh, so it's like a game! Men try to steal the bases and women try to protect them! Got it"
I protected my bases after that. :-)
That was the American version.
Equally instructive was the movie that Deneuve starred in called "Belle du Jour." In French, with subtitles, it was the first "retro art house" film I saw. Disguised by pretty clothing and explained away by "pseudo psychology", it is the story of a housewife who find secret fulfillment as a masochist prostitute.
Yeah.
So many years later I can see the profound damage that sort of thinking has done to us all: #metoo.
So let's dispense with it: No, men are not HARDWIRED to be leeches.
Putting it another way. Yesterday, I skipped lunch. Hours later, I saw someone eating a Krispy Kreme over my head on the subway. Somehow I managed to not take a bite. As an egalitarian, I believe men possess equal abilities.
In my teen's generation, they get it. Boys and girls ask each other out. Yes there are blurry issues with sexting, but on the whole, they are more equal. With them, I have hope that respect will be the norm "du jour".
15
For you to categorize the overwhelming tension between the sexes in the workplace as generational tells me that you are not nearly as historically perceptive as you think. What, exactly, do you think is going to happen between the sexes when women finally achieve equal empowerment in the workplace? Women are not superior homo sapiens; they're just as stupid, venal, violent, and selfish as men. WOMEN GAVE US TRUMP! Nope, when women are "equal," the only thing that is going to change is the gender of the abuser. Tell me, as concerns governing, do you feel that you can count on an elected official to do the right thing because she's a woman?
3
I'm pretty sure that a woman of Deneuve's attractiveness and experience knows the dfference between sexual abuse/harassment/assault and harmless, clumsy flirting. When "trying to steal a kiss" is part of a habitual campaign, a strategy some men adapt to make moves on every attractive woman they meet, when that man has workplace seniority over the women in question, when he has the power to make or break careers, when his position gives him credibility and authority that makes it more likely people will believe his side of the story rather than the aggrieved women's, there is nothing harmless or inept about the situation. These men develop calculated and ugly approaches to all the women they meet in the hopes that if a small percentage of the many women they approach give them what they want, they are doing pretty well. If French women are okay with sexual abuse based on a disparity of power, then they are welcome to it. The rest of us, who have routinely over many years experienced lots and lots of inappropriate male sexual overtures and been forced to treat it as if it was nothing, we are firmly with #MeToo. As with a dawning recognition of many abuses - by for example Catholic priests - for awareness to seep deeply into the public consciousness, some people may be wrongly accused. That is terrible. But I haven't yet heard a news story about anyone accused who did nothing wrong. Hopefully that will never happen.
30
"These men develop calculated and ugly approaches to all the women they meet in the hopes that if a small percentage of the many women they approach give them what they want, they are doing pretty well." You do realize that you are talking about, "a small percentage," of men.
Secondly, "As with a dawning recognition of many abuses - by for example Catholic priests - for awareness to seep deeply into the public consciousness, some people may be wrongly accused." I most certainly, and fervently, hope that some day YOU are the one wrongly accused and who is punished, or worse, for her innocence. That's what I think of your HIGHLY un-American comment.
1
Ah, much needed sanity. Americans are so obsessive and puritanical. Always black and white, lost when it comes to grey.
32
Rooney, agreed, and add "lazy" to that American list. It always takes effort to consider other possibilities and points of view.
2
From Ms Deneuve's comments:
"They write that “a woman can, in the same day, lead a professional team and enjoy being the sexual object of a man, without being a ‘promiscuous woman,’ nor a vile accomplice of patriarchy.”
I'm not sure how other women out there feel about this, but I can assure you that being treated as a "sexual object" is the most degrading experience a woman can go through.
There is a big ocean between us.
26
Let's keep the conversation going.
I do not agree with Catherine Denueve but we should listen
4
One has to admire her courage.
She has to know that the social media will "ravage" her. She has to know that her goddess- like status in France will not protect her and quite the opposite, she will be knocked off her pedestal.
In a similar vein see:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/05/opinion/golden-globes-metoo.html
although Daphne Merkin is not Catherine Denueve.
7
I don't mean to put words into Ms. Deneuve's mouth but I think what she's trying to say is that this issue is a little more nuanced than people are treating it.
There's a YUGE gulf between Al Franken and Harvey Weinstein.
Also, I'm a tad suspicious of Hollywood women who KNEW that this stuff was going on and didn't say anything.
27
Your suspicious of women who knew what was happening and didn't say anything. What are you suspicious about?
The point of #metoo is that women - and some men - felt unable to speak out against their transgressors until now, because they felt alone and were worried about losing their jobs or being ridiculed as liars. I'm genuinely sorry you don't recognize that.
1
And I thought mansplaining was bad when MEN did it.
14
Catherine Deneuve should be Trumps vice president
3
I fully agree the #metoo movement has some aspects of hysteria.
It does not surprise me that Europeans have an issue with it nor that this wave of nouveau Puritanism erupted in America. Yes, rape and assault should be treated as crimes but aside from those, the playfulness of flirtation is completely killed through dragging all acts of desire through the mud. The spontaneity dies too. Then again, generally speaking, I never found American men particularly skilled at flirting…The French, though, that is a different…It is almost like art of the conversation, art of attracting, art of playing with language, art of glance… And, of course, it is never forced…
10
vive le france and these right-thinking women!
14
I was with Ms Deneuve until the second to last paragraph, when she defended the indefensible actions of Roman Polanski, who raped or sexually assaulted not only 1 but 3 underage girls. His actions were criminal and it is another crime that he got away with this 3x.
Ms Deneuve is not alone, Meryl Streep gave Roman Polanski a standing ovation at the 2003 Oscars and she worked with Harvey Weinstein for years, and blasphemously referred to him as God, even though his abominable reputation was an open secret in all of Hollywood.
At least Ms Deneuve is not a hypocrite in her support of Roman Polanski, but Meryl Streep is a total hypocrite by supporting and/or working with both Polanski and Weinstein, but then condemns only those with whom she politically disagrees.
10
Women have been dissed and exploited throughout history (war) in just about every culture. Beyond cruel behavior towards women is considered to be a mere fact of life in many many societies - India, afghanistan, china, Pakistan, throughout Africa, Latin and south America, and etc.
So to all the happily pinched European bottoms - Prendre plaisir!
For the rest of us ; Enough is enough!
4
Catherine Deneuve represents a time in France when catcalls were seen as chivalrous flattery and getting swept away in a passionate male bear hug was rapturous and not in the least rapist. That’s just a goodbye today, with post-Weinstein women on a globally-connected planet calling those moves creepy.
(To have an idea of how much French woman traditionally have had to endure: French actress Maria Schneider was traumatized her entire life by the vicious joke Marlon Brando and director Bernardo Bertolucci played on her in 1972, when they decided Brando would sodomize her on camera without telling her during the filming of “Last Tango in Paris.”)
Men and women in a new world need to define new romantic styles ever based on mutual respect. The art of seduction may have to change. Happily, where there’s a will, there’s a way.
The touch-of-menace masculinity that Deneuve is nostalgic to defend must end. That's a film that has a happy ending.
307
So you're concluding what "French women ... have had to endure" based on how an American actor and an Italian director behaved?!
12
Very thoughtful, cuts to the chase.
But a film's happy ending only works if homo sapiens can identify with it; to wit, what's another form of masculinity? Someone please try give this a name a description, convey its essence somehow. Anyone in the world with an answer, express yourself. E.g is the genre of 'mutual respect erotica' on our cultural horizon? I don't see a lot of money there.
1
"That's a film that has a happy ending."
Thanks, but I prefer masterpieces with a fitting end to the Hollywood happy end mediocrity.
Besides, backing your statement about "how much French women traditionally blah, blah, blah" with a single instance of abuse is plain silly. The rate of rape in the US was about 3x higher than in France in 2003.
6
Rape/sexual violence is one subject apart. What these instinctively smart and confident French women understand is that women, if one believes that they are not pathetic hothouse flowers, are fully capable of making things clear to men and handling themselves.
From decades of working with professional French women, they are vastly more liberated and balanced than American women in the workplace. They dress in a feminine manner, they flirt, and they know how to get down to business when that's in order.
The #metoo thing is outrageous. There are approx. 165,000,000 men in the US. A bunch fo wealthy, prominent men in largely non-professional industries have been implicated. To extrapolate from that very modest anecdotal evidence in the national hysteria is extremely unhealthy. The War Against Human Nature has gone too far. IF a woman has a problem with a man, that's between them and perhaps their boss if its in the workplace.
These stories from decades past -- stories, ie one side of a story -- resulting in isnntant firings is appalling. Remember one thing the next time an actress says something -- she fakes emotion for a living.
16
Please do not dream that you are in any way qualified to speak for women and their experiences of sexism in the USA.
Mansplaining only proves you have no idea what women have dealt with in this country fr centuries, so perhaps start listening instead of trying to paint us all with a broad brush and tell us how we should feel/act.
5
She clearly doesn't get it. She reminds me of women from her generation that falsely equate feminism with man-hating. I was astounded at how many of my female friends and loved ones said they also had been negatively approached by a man, ranging from sexually inappropriate comments all the way to rape. There is a huge difference between flirting and sexual inappropriateness, and most men in this day and age know it, too. Shame on you, Catherine.
24
Sorry Ms. Deneuve, the crazy train left the station. #MeToo should effect the social segregation of the genders, even though they may be compelled to physically occupy the same work space. Neo-Victorian prudery should successfully promote both pornography and prostitution (steadily becoming legally less risky than social association with women).
On the plus side, this should continue the steady historical decline in sexual assault and rape. The only men reckless enough to associate with women would be the rapists and criminals as they do not care about the legal and social outcomes. Since this is what women want, let 'em have it.
2
So sad for Ms. Deneuve. She has clearly chosen to be on the wrong side of history. And defending Roman Polanski! That's crazy.
20
Most workplace structures are patriarchal, with heterosexual males in positions of power. When men exploit this power structure to "speak[] about 'intimate' things at a work dinner, or send[] messages with sexual connotations" to women that occupy junior or less powerful positions in their workplace, the ramifications to the junior woman's career (let alone psyche) can be severe. When these men in power positions "touch[] a knee" or "try to steal a kiss," well, I call that assault. It's not about whether a touch equals rape (it does not). The #MeToo movement seeks, among other things, to recognize the power imbalance in these professional situations and how that exposes women to sexual misconduct of all varieties.
22
Different cultures can have different values and norms. Both Americans, and French, sometimes forget that their particular values need not be universal, and their attempt to generalize their personal or societal preferences globally is a far greater disease than any they are trying to solve.
8
Regardless of culture, unwanted attention and overtures; sexual innuendo and sexual assault are just that. Women all of the world have put up with this for centuries. #TimesUp You are making excuses which have no basis in reality.
9
You don't need to go all the way to France to find opposition to this movement. Just visit Fox News.
16
Anyone who defends Roman Polanski is not worth spending a nanosecond listening to. Who actually cares about what she has to say? It's time to admit that a beautiful face can be combined with an ugly heart.
19
Catherine Deneuve is a French sex symbol. She does not speak for real women. She defended Roman Polanski. How can we take her seriously?
17
Somewhere Al Franken is smiling and Kirsten Gilibrand is getting nervous.
15
The the fact that Ms. Deneuve is still defending Roman Polanski speaks volumes. It is as if she’s saying “well, men will be men,” and if you’re a liberated woman, you should just accept it. All of which is utter nonsense.
17
Good for her!
In the present environment I will not even bother to chit-chat with a woman anymore - it is just not worth it, god forbid I say ..... something
18
Something sexual? Looks like #metoo is working!
16
On behalf of women everywhere, we prefer silence to sexual harassment. If you can’t talk about the weather without veering into saying something inappropriate, I can live without your “chit-chat.”
149
On behalf of women everywhere, thank you!
8
Your old road is rapidly agin’
Please get out of the new one if you can’t lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin’
9
Yeah, knowing she defended Roman Polanski, even though her screed has valid points, she forever lost me.
5
Deneuve is completely correct: #MeToo has gone too far, as has done Political Correctness, in stifling thought between cultures and sexes..another pathetic attempt to legislate behavior.
The countless mentally secure woman I've known could easily rebuff an awkward come on. Boorish men proposing unwanted sex to underlings can easily still do so without using overtly sexual comments. The #metoo accomplishes nothing but add layers of needless confusion to lives.
20
The idea that sexual freedom for women allows men to do whatever they want with our bodies seems misguided at best. No one wants an awkward flirtation to be criminalized, but this is not what the #metoo movement is concerned about. Women are concerned that they cannot find work opportunity without sacrificing control of what happens to their bodies.
35
Remember that Polanski has a safe haven in France for sexual misconduct with a thirteen year old.
21
I for one agree with Catherine Deneuve. One good example of the over-the-top #MeToo campaign was the demonization of Al Franken, a good man that America badly needs.
One stolen kiss, many decades ago, was the basis for a smear campaign, no doubt engineered by his political opponents. The photograph of him pretending to grab a woman's breasts when she had a flack jacket on was a trivial and childish prank and should never have been the basis of destroying his political career.
The fact that he was not allowed due process to examine the accusations made against him was a travesty of due process and justice. Prove to me that he was guilty of the accusations leveled at him before destroying the political career of a decent man.
I suspect that his political opponents and enemies are thrilled with the outcome. Once again Democrats were gullible manipulated into destroying the career of one of their most promising candidates. The "right" and the "left" are playing two different games in American Politics and it is the "right" that is winning.
50
Once again, Republicans were manipulated into destroying the career of one of their most promising candidates, Roy (French for "king") Moore.
Yes, movements can go too far. Maybe Franklin should have tried to tough it out, too. Maybe he should run for his old seat. And frankly the story told by his initial accuser is the story of the skit they were acting out, which is totally weird and makes me question her veracity.
To suggest that there is separation between the right and left, though, is I think mistaken. It's primarily an issue about unequal sexual power in the workplace, as well as about sexual assault in parked cars in Alabama.
1
What many fail to grasp about Franken is that it was not "a stolen kiss". It was a patter of harassment as retaliation for not returning his affections.
6
Really hate that about Franken. We do need his vote. Bottom line: act like a respectful, law-abiding, decent person and you won't have any trouble. At least you won't be photographed in some ridiculously lewd act.
1
Bravo, Catherine! The fact of the matter is that the overwhelming majority of men respect and love women! We live in a time, where not only the media is the message, but also shapes it! In actuality an infitesimal number of men abuse and grope women! Yet, with the ubiquitous presence of the media and Hollywood culture getting air and internet play, their constant harping on the few sleaze balls, most of which are from the entertainment, media, and business communities, creates an aura, especially with lots of uneducated folks, that their immoral actions are rampant! They are not! And ladies, who are the overwhelming folks who have come to your rescue, when you are in distress? Who are you going to call? This whole trashing of men is sad, very sad, and doesn’t help a situation that though small in society is serious! And really, wearing black to protest? Times up! Times Up, for what? The casting couch? Hopefully! But, how many women, have sat there? This man, and I know the overwhelming majority of my brothers, will always remain a gentleman! Isn’t that what you want?! Right!!!
13
I agree. As a feminist and as a woman who has suffered much harassment and even assault and constant inappropriate or sexist behavior at work this has gone the wrong direction. There is a difference between what men like Weinstein do and what Al Franken did. There needs to be proportion to this or it all goes into ridiculous. It's too easy to make fun of or dismiss women who equate the clumsy pass as she calls it with the man who actually assaults you or makes your life hell at work. Or the company that allows the constant belittling or overlooking of women. Women wind up looking like uptight prisses and then men who behave badly get to say "see they aren't fit for the workplace" because that's where most of this plays out. A guy at a construction site who yells out "ooh hoo mama" does not damage me as much as my job where they pay me way less, never promote me, ignore me at meetings, denigrate or dismiss my work, let me be bullied and harassed daily all because I am female. Bring some balance into this discussion or we all lose.
59
Right, but in my workplace there is no unequal pay of women, they are promoted preferentially (if only slightly), definitely not ignored, denigrated of dismissed, bullied or harassed. Not by the men anyway. In fact, what I am seeing is that the number 1 enemy of a women usually is another woman.
1
Ms. Deneuve: if a man is interested in you, he'll just have to wait until outside of a business setting to proposition you, not at the job and not couched in quid pro quo, with power over you. His freedom isn't being threatened to lead a libidinous life style.
I myself do not want any man who needs to touch me to flirt with me. If you can't do it with your mind, up your game and learn to be a troubadour or give a serenade, write a poem.
These apologists are doing more harm with this statement than defending free speech. Grabbing someone butt or kissing her against her will or catcalling her in the street is not free speech nor should be treated as such. It degrades the definition of freedom of speech. You can argue that you don't feel that it justifiable that a man is charged with a crime if he engages in non-sexual assault conduct but again that is problematic: a man who exposes himself habitually to unwilling participants is not touching or assaulting someone per se, but the conduct is reprehensible and treated like a crime, no?
I would say more to Ms. Deneuve but it would be unprintable at this point. She and her allies are apologists for reprehensible conduct.
27
Good that you provided all the rules that you want a man to follow. :))
Unfortunately it was not clear prior to your comment. As it was not clear with any woman who may claim harassment...
A lot of the claims may be legit just as many may be not... But rules of "...write me a poem or sing a serenade..." ain't quite obvious and may be just irritating to another woman... other than you... :))
3
So, the conclusion of her opinion is that some sexual crimes and impropriety are reportable, but some are not? Some women are victims, some are not? Is this not the same mindset of "boys will be boys" and women should just suck it up? Where is this line that must be crossed, and why does she get to decide this and not the victim?
Frankly, if the recipient was not a willing participant in the incident, ANY INCIDENT, then it is her right to speak up. The idea that some are more of a victim than others, and that anyone other than the victim gets to make that decision, is tantamount to victim blaming/shaming, and is a vulgar as it gets.
19
There's some truth in what she says, although she's completely off-base in her defense of Polanski, whose offenses far exceed "having sex with a 13-year-old girl" (although having sex with a 13-year-old girl is bad enough). He plied her with alcohol and Quaalude, then sodomized her against her will.* This needs to be emphasized every time the subject comes up.
(*The victim's and defendent's depositions and Polanski's psychological evaluation documents, which I've read in full, are available at TheSmokingGun.com.)
8
Thank goodness, a voice of sanity!
Hopefully Catherine Deneuve and the saner silent majority (which is keeping its head down hoping this madness will blow over soon) she represents will prevail, else all men will soon have to insist on having indemnification and release forms signed before we interact in any way with any woman, simply to protect ourselves from false accusations.
I am not kidding, this is going to backfire in a major way and women are going to suffer as much as men as a result.
As usual, the only ones who will win again are the lawyers.
#WakeUp
22
Women are ALREADY suffering “in a major way”- that’s the whole point. As for the backlash, how would we even notice the difference?
SLM: Women are ALREADY suffering “in a major way”.
And so are innocent men. And the argument that they don't count won't work. Most women I know are not that callous that they would cold-heartedly and indiscriminately throw innocent men under the bus. But perhaps I only know the right kind. Tell me what the other kind looks like so I can give them a wide berth.
Bottomline, we are all, men and women alike, sitting in the same boat. We can spend our time squabbling or start rowing. I suggest the latter so we can get back on solid ground.
You can have the obvious abusers of the shifty-eye Weinstein type and do with them as you please. There is no defense for those creeps. You can even give Al Franken a good slap if that makes you feel better, although my biggest disappointment in him was that he was a whimp who didn't stand up to the disproportional assault on him but preferred to cave in and shrivel away. Maybe for that reason it is better that he is gone.
But leave the rest of us alone.
Catherine Deneuve has it right.
2
Nonsense. When one gender is systematically oppressing the other, they are not “in the same boat.” One gender grants you privilege and the other gets paid $0.80, at best, for the same work as that of the privileged.
Losing an unfair privilege might feel oppressive, but it’s movement toward equality.
I can't agree with much that Ms. Deneuve says, but it does seem that the #MeToo movement has collectively decided that an accusation of sexual misconduct is proof of guilt. Saying that evidence matters is not making excuses for the Weinsteins of the world. There have been, after all, notorious cases of such accusations being proven false, not to mention the many African-Americans lynched because they were accused of sexual trespass, and evidence be damned.
"njglea" mentions the French Revolution. The French aristocracy had much to answer for, but that doesn't justify the Terror (which, by the way, when it ran out of aristocrats and their children to kill, started killing its own).
7
Psssst!
Catherine.
You lost me at Polanski.
Polanski is a pedophile.
Next.
27
Though I disagree with the French actors, I think the conversation necessary. Such conversation advances our consideration of women.
10
Actions have reactions.
The thrill as well as for many an important emotional release flooding the headlines and opinion pieces demonstrate that the promotion of complex causes can have consequences.
Little to no attention has been given to whether when women are granted power some will abuse that power. Reporters and commentators have also ignored the serious problem of false allegations leading to harm heaped on the victims of false charges. History gives ample examples of over-reactions leading to mob mentality abuse. The senators who forced Al Franken from the Senate are only one example of many, including people who are just "plain" people and not famous -- so apparently not worthy of notice.
11
My hope is that men in general, no matter what profession, rich or poor, old or young,
learn that intimacy and trust go hand in hand.
There is no place in our world, our workplace and in our homes for overt power games, sexual innuendo, bribes or favors based on sex or sexual situations.
A gentle touch, a warm glance and the promise for more intimacy is an invitation that most women welcome in the proper context and appropriate situation, and this time honored and emotional connection should not disappear from fear of reprisal or missed cues.
It's 2018 and it's still ok to hold a woman's hand.
It's NOT ok to twist her arm.
51
"A gentle touch, a warm glance and the promise for more intimacy is an invitation that most women welcome in the proper context and appropriate situation, and this time honored and emotional connection should not disappear from fear of reprisal or missed cues.
It's 2018 and it's still ok to hold a woman's hand.
It's NOT ok to twist her arm."
100% agree. Well said.
The French "laissez vivre" vs the American "absolutism" which one do you think is more palatable?
8
This was by 100 women from France, from a certain class and social space. They don't speak for all the women in France. It would be good to know when the last time Catherine D rode the metro and got groped was? I found this letter hurtful and demeaning the many battles women from all walks of life have faced. The #MeToo movement is far from perfect, but other women attacking other women on how to go about it is not the answer. What we need are more spaces, conversations, actions that are inclusive to lift the veil on how men, particularly those in power, have abused women over the years.
8
is it not possible to find a reasonable middle ground? why the black and white choice?
4
Like it or not, there is certainly a grain of truth in Catherine Deneuve's letter. I find it disturbing that any and all claims of harassment are lumped together. No one with a shred of humanity would think of punishing a shoplifter at a convenience store the same way they would an armed robber at the same store. Both are thieves aren't they? There are horrendous crimes committed against women all over the world. Some of the claims made by enormously wealthy famous women seem shallow. Others are dubious. Some seem like acts of vengeance. This to me takes away from the seriousness of sexual harassment and criminal assaults taking place in far less lofty workplaces than Hollywood. Common sense has to prevail here. As a mother of sons it worries me tremendously that anyone can say anything at any time and because there is a believe the children mantra, lives can be destroyed.
65
We've reached a point of "I accuse" as now it's your time to DEFEND yourself. Where is the proof of accusations? Hysteria long repressed has given away to the "witch hunts" that we are now experiencing in human relations.
What next involuntary castrations?
21
Exactly! Except for the castration comments, but as in Franken wanted an investigation but his overzealous Democratic peers denied him the opportunity.
8
Yep, Franken performed that unpleasant operation on himself, which in my view was the decisive factor that disqualified him for the Senate, not what he was accused of in the first place. The public shaming he received for that was plenty punishment. He had learned his lesson.
1
I think Deneuve and the #metoo movement both have a point. I'm a staunch #metoo supporter and call myself a feminist. But I also sometimes enjoy being the “sexual object of a man”. I like flirting. I like to know men are interested in me. It's human biology. Just because I'm a woman doesn't mean I can't also be a sexual being. I have always enjoyed my sexuality and think it should be part of a normal, healthy woman's life.
The problem comes when we can't differentiate “clumsy come-on’s” which we are able to deal with and fend off on our own, from sexual harassment or assault. I agree with Deneuve that reporting every man who winks in your direction or shows interest, whether on the street or in the work place could lead down a very scary path. Taken to the extreme, if we continue going down this path, could it lead women to stay out of the workplace? Or perhaps wear clothing that covers their bodies from head to toe? That sounds ridiculous, I know. But it is a reality for many women.
What Al Franken did is not the same as what Harvey Weinstein did and does not deserve to be painted with the same brush. It’s very important that men, and women, learn the difference between "normal" female/male interaction and sexual assault, sex with a minor, rape, sexual advances made by a" superior" at work, school, etc. The latter are serious crimes and the perpetrators should be punished to the full extent of the law.
825
I totally agree with C. Pierson's and Deneuve's comments. Of course pedophilia and sexual harassment in the workplace are totally inappropriate and should be dealt with accordingly, but we're going too far here. What the #MeToo movement is doing is taking the sex out of Sex. I, for one, don't want to see this happen. As for the women, like so many musical performers, who dress (or undress) so suggestively, how do you think men will react? Rita Hayworth was as sexy as they come, but she didn't have to strip down to be so. Really, aren't we being a little hypocritical?
6
"It’s very important that men, and women, learn the difference between "normal" female/male interaction and sexual assault... "
True, but anyone with a bit of common sense already knows the difference. The #MeToo movement has so successfully brainwashed people into believing that there is no difference that Al Franken resigned.
7
I agree that Weinstein’s sexual assaults are far more serious than Franken’s insensitive prank. Weinstein should be prosecuted and Franken should not. However, Franken humiliated an innocent soldier while she was asleep. He doesn’t deserve jail time for what he did, but his resignation was appropriate. If I were that woman, I would be mortified. She was asleep and ignorant of his behavior. No one should have to deal with that level of disrespect in the workplace. I agree with the rest of your comments- clumsy come-ons are not a crime unless the behavior persists despite the recipient’s clear communication that the behavior is not acceptable.
5
"…the freedom that we cherish is not without risks and responsibilities”--for men as well as women? Or is this warning intended only for women, and men are not be burdened with the possibility that they may be taking risks and have responsibilities? Or is their sense of freedom, are their possibilities for pleasure, too fragile to bear that? Poor guys--now they are the "victims" even though that title is supposed to be owned by women?
13
I suppose that if the Democrats regain control of Congress in 2018, French Fries will again be banned from their dining room menu, as they were after France opposed the Iraq War. Perhaps this time, instead of being substituted with Freedom Fries, they will be replaced by Twitter Fries in honor of our new, improved system of American justice. Of course, if it looks like the Republicans might lose Congress, they may well take a preemptive action before the election by banning French Fries in favor of She-Asked-For-It-Fries.
5
Stevie it was the republicans that started the ridiculous "freedom fries" nonsense.
8
Aside from acting as sexual partners to men in this world, women are also the mothers of men. This French backlash seems to come, in its frazzled arguments, from the mothers' perspective of wanting to protect and defend one's boys.
3
this is a reductionist response. women are not just sexual partners and mothers. give us a break with such simplistic thinking.
the issues the letter raises are important ones and not just a mommy defense of errant boys. you demean the "me too" movement and insightful dialogue with your reply. do better. women's and men's lives are at stake. yes. yours as well. think harder, better, deeper. i'm sure you can give more than you have with this reply.
3
Part of the problem with this subject is the impossibility of clearly defining boundaries. Clearly, some behavior is unacceptable under any circumstances - forcible rape, for example. But is making an overture to someone of a sexual nature unacceptable? How does one define the line between OK and harassment? What might be perfectly acceptable banter to one woman might make another uncomfortable. How does one decide, in the absence of clear feedback? Do we want to stifle all sexual conduct for fear of upsetting someone? Flirtation may be welcome by one person and abhorred by another. Women are going to have to accept some responsibility for making their boundaries clear, and men are going to have to respect them. (And vice-versa, of course.) Somewhere there is a balance point; these discussions will help us find it.
30
There will always be outliers, but it really comes down to respect and understanding the meaning of consent.
A young acquaintance of mine told me a telling story. She was sexually assaulted by a drunk young man. When she confronted him in the light of day, he cried, and I believe he did so with genuine remorse.
I do not diminish her experience; but ignoring his and dehumanizing him doesn't help any of us. I do not believe that young man woke up that morning intending to be a monster......but his actions, ignorance, lack of control etc all colluded to make him thus.
The reality is we must educated us all to stop seeing the dance of seduction as one where there is a hunter and there is a prey. If we can all agree that consensual sex has not element of "persuasion", then the boundaries are clearer for everybody. That is what "no means no" tries, but fails, to address.
I am of the belief that if and when society begins to fully respect women as autonomous, the shift will begin to stop trying to "pull one over on us" to get us into bed. It will reduce the amount of predatory behavior. It will clarify situations that have the potential to turn into date rape. I think we are at that tipping point.
That there are dissenting voices do not surprise me; that is the normal and expected reaction to a giant societal change. These conversations will be painful, angry, full of recriminations--but the behavior will be exposed and delineated.
1
I think the balance point is whether or not these things happen in the workplace.
We all knew it was coming: eventually a female apologist would appear and declare the movement has gone too far. It should not be surprising to anyone that the person is a French movie star. Just put her on ignore.
34
Thank God, a sane voice in all this finally.
Typically, Americans have super sized the problem. No right thinking person is suggesting that the Weinsteins of the world get a pass. But to equate every male/female interaction that the woman does not approve of - reasonably or unreasonably - as sexual assault is exactly the type of thinking that denigrates the seriousness of the problem. Humans will make mistakes in their interactions with the opposite sex; every such mistake is not done with criminal intent.
American women, by their flailing hysteria on this subject, portray themselves as immature feminists. A genuine feminist wouldn't keep quiet about it for years until she got the OK from society at large to shout about it. A genuine feminist, of whom I know quite a few, would have responded to the insult that is sexual harassment very firmly and immediately. As in, "Don't EVER do that again, you creep." What they wouldn't do is keep their mouths shut for years like "a good girl."
The French seem to have a much more mature feminism that takes into account that human interactions are fraught, under the best of circumstances, with misunderstanding and ample opportunity for mis-interpretation. To be able to distinguish between that which is innocent and that which is not would seem to be the mark of a more advanced feminism.
The French understand that men are the opposite gender, not the opposing gender.
38
I just think you speak from a position of ignorance on this subject.
First of all, you understand this is about more than just sex, right? The outcry has been because of the INCREDIBLE and UNWARRANTED imbalances in our American lives. Even for me--a battle weary NY woman who came of age in the 90s--it was stunning to see the sea of #metoos on my FB page. I turned to my husband that day and said "this is big". When so many women of all classes, ages and educational level begin to tell of times that men have HURT them, we have a problem. That does transform the conversation from opposite to opposing. It is a direct correlation to the fact that "seduction" in our country is an oppositional game of "get" that render women as prey.
Beyond that, women have to endure groping in the subways, and in public spaces. I myself got groped in a lake with my family at age 15 by a stranger. That was about three years after a guy exposed himself to me outside a mall. I am hardly alone.
At 18, I fought off a boyfriend, who believe my skirt belonged on the floor. I did not and so he got physical. I fought like crazy but still carry the scar. Literally. I have a scar.
I have been OVERTLY discriminated against at work in ways that leave no ambiguity that my gender was the basis.
....and I have been lucky. Do you understand that? I have never been raped. I am lucky to merely have to live my life on permanent guard.
Sorry pal, I want better for my daughter.
Things have to change.
5
I'm not French and I agree with Deneuve. The metoo movement moves too fast, without discernment. Any time power picks up speed without weighing action it is frightening. PS I'm female and I'm all for ethics and criminal investigations and trials. I just don't think an email ought to convict someone.
19
This is a very useful, even important letter. That it offends people who've suffered rape does not invalidate it, given the heightened politics now surrounding the issue of sexual conduct.
Most heterosexual men have attempted to kiss a woman and been rebuffed, at least prior to having a stable partner. People can't read minds, so one person can have unreciprocated feelings but not know it. The letter asks if #metoo's outcome will be legal contracts signed prior to sex. This crystallizes a vague premonition that we're moving towards a place where only women are allowed to request sex.
It may be that, several generations hence, that will be the case. But it's worth a discussion, which thus far is absent. That's what makes this letter interesting. Sexuality is not only political. It is also intensely personal, spontaneous, obscure. Draining it of authentic dynamics distorts society.
It's easy to pretend people should behave in some model manner. They never do. Let's focus on sexual attitudes in the workplace that undermine female control, and how to preserve women's legitimate power. Sometimes it takes a hammer. Most times it doesn't.
15
If Ms. Deneuve believes that it's alright for a man to ask a woman out, to try and kiss his date and talk about intimate things, that is alright if his date does not show that they are put off by it. However at that moment if the gentleman does not respect his date's wishes then he is no gentleman.
Also there is a group of men and possible women that will use their position in society or business to intimidate a person into doing things that person would not have done, if she feels that this is alright I think most people will have a problem with that.
5
I agree that the pendulum has swung too far. Al Franken, Garrison Keillor seem to bear no resemblance to Weinstein or Lauer, for instance. To remove any agency from women is to handcuff them, make them victims. And of course, public and media courts have vastly affected the lives of the men who used poor judgment, but did not commit crimes or apparently violently overcome any women.
22
I don’t remember her coming to the defense of Dominique Strauss-Kahn who, like Mr. Weinstein, has similar libertarian ideals.
6
Thank you Ms. Deneuve. The danger (tragedy perhaps) of the moment is that failure to distinguish between barbarian and klutz will ultimately give space to the barbarian. Women and good men lose.
385
But, if that "klutz" has power over a woman's career, it is a danger to her professional development.
4
No, women and good me do not lose because good men are not barbarians. Good men are honorable.
4
Nobody is confused. A man who kisses you at a job interview is not "a klutz". A man who propositions those underneath him and when they refuse him then proceeds to ruin their reputation in the office is not a klutz or " a good man". Any man who in a work setting persistently hits on women he has power over is not a klutz but serial harasser.
9
Perhaps the greatest harm of movements such as MeToo and Black Lives Matter is the backlash they inevitably engender; and that backlash renders some vitally important progressiive ideas impotent and discredited. The problem with these movements is that they adopt an “ends justify the means” ethic which tramples on the rights of the innocent and trashes our basic freedoms of speech and legal defense. Victim feminism and black victimology will ultimately undermine many of the decent ideas they try to foster. If you’re looking for a reason for the rise of Trumpism and the nonsense of Breitbart look no further than the regressive Left, which has zero regard for our basic freedoms.
204
How does one even begin to equate MeToo with Black Lives Matter? It seems so absurdly bigoted to even try. There is a big difference between an unwanted, clumsy advance and an unwanted bullet through the heart.
7
This comment is what you get when one side cannot comprehend calls for accountability and respect from groups that have traditionally been marginalized in our society.
It is never regressive to stand up for one's rights (Civil Rights movement anyone?), but it is quit regressive (and telling) that one side continues to bemoan the fact that they can't do and say things that they used to when certain people did not have a voice (back when America was "great" I guess), then laughable couching behind some perceived loss of their "basic freedoms"; that is what we call White-male-victimology.
6
You could make the same, I think invalid, argument that the anti-slavery movement in the U.S. discredited "some vitally important progressive ideas" and that the Civil War itself, started by Southern states, and fought, among other reasons, over slavery, had an "end justifies the means" ethic for the North.
You could make the same argument about the Revolutionary War. The original colonial protests over legal inequalities were discredited because they led to the clash of armies.
If men and some women hadn't been sexual pigs - my apology to pigs - due to the built-in nature of our social system, particularly in the work place, then women wouldn't need to come forward with their stories about their mistreatment, whether or not such treatment reached criminal levels. The system needs to be changed. So far, no one's lost their heads as a result.
Deneuve aside, women speaking up for themselves is not the same as the excesses of French Revolution. And Roman Polanski isn't absolved because the woman he raped when she was 13 forgave him as an adult who got a hefty monetary settlement from the director.
3
Social Media has turned things into "guilty until proven innocent", and I agree with the main point Ms. Deneuve is making -- that clumsy flirting is not sexual misconduct.
This is a tough situation - for both genders - because there are some terrible, despicable people out there, but we're drowning too many that are simply victims of the tidal wave.
The pendulum has swung to the other side.
I don't know what the solution is, but I hope we'll figure it out.
378
I can't believe my eyes. What the MeToo movement object to is harassment, abuse of power, not flirting. Harassment, abuse of power, and YES, Flirting has no place in the workplace. Basta.
10
Yes, katia, but MeToo is being used by some to attack flirting.
2
"the pendulum has swung" for 15 minutes and men are whining after decades of abuses of power. Come on, man! If you aren't an abuser, you should be a supporter of victims; it's not THAT complicated.
5
I like the French culture and the language: I am studying it continuously. However, the French are not precisely an icon of good sexual conduct to serve as "referee" in this subject, mainly in other countries: For their country, it is O. K.; as we read about the French kings and queens having numerous affairs and "living in peace."
Their thinking in this subject is not "extrapolable" to other countries and cultures, my dear Catherine. Us men love to ready you thinking; but we also have daughters, and that stops us of giving you "a hand."
15
I believe you are not as familiar with French culture as you imagine. For instance, a recent international study of how society in about sixteen countries define secual harassment revealed that, in France, over 60% of women under 26 view a man asking a woman out for a drink - in any circumstance - as sexual harassment.
Hardly the laissez-faire nation full of Pepé le Pews you seem to believe France to be.
4
"my dear Catherine"? Really? Talk about patronizing...
2
I agreed with Ms. Deneuve on some points, I would prefer some sort of review system rather than just firing or resigning. The punishment should fit the crime. She lost my respect however in regards to Roman Polanski, his victim may be a woman now and that woman may have agreements in place with him. However when he had sex with her she was a 13 year old girl. This distorts her message for me irreparably.
100
The problem I have with Polanski is this is a man who spent his childhood running and hiding from the nazis. He does not necessarily have a clear concept of what childhood necessarily represents because he was not allowed one. It seems wrong not to take this into the account.This seems an instance where being judged by a jury of his actual peers--others who managed to hide in Europe for years being hunted and fearing for their lives--should be done. How we are raised greatly influences our concepts of right and wrong. I know this is a difficult concept. But it seems wrong to discount it.
5
Knowing I will be sent to the guillotine I choose to confront this post because knowledgable people acknowledge the fact of powerful juvenile sexuality in both sexes. But I'm not excusing Polanski.
Further sticking my neck out though with the caveat that I know and agree many men are really screwed up and require education/enlightenment. Being a bully on any level is just wrong.
Though what no one has the courage to acknowledge is feminine sexual aggression that absolutely exist and happens all the time. Why, because few have a problem with it!
I have first hand experience with it and it was destructive.
I've never been entirely comfortable with the French "liberte" around sex, that's probably my hang up more than anything, but I believe these women have a point that the #MeToo movement, along with simplistic attempts at solidarity like wearing black or railroading out a senator who is a strong supporter of women's equality for relatively minor infractions, spreads the impression not of women who are strong and standing up, but who are fragile and need to be told they are brave while being protected from every offence, no matter how slight.
176
NO ONE is protecting women from SERIOUS ASSAULT, RAPE and life-degrading Harassment. This commenter writes that #MeToo movement is about protecting women from "every offense, no matter how slight." Just because a few cases that are less horrific have gotten attention _does_not mean that the 99% of cases that were criminal should be disregarded.
The point is, in this country for too long, men have raped/assaulted/harassed girls and women with zero consequence. Now, finally- despite prosecutors and the courts continued disregard for these crimes, the court of public opinion is taking action. Much overdue action.
Pay attention not to the rare exception of less-heinous crimes receiving punishment, but rather to the overwhelming number of cases where no one was protected- and horrible things happened.
Any man who thinks #MeToo is unfair- try living as a woman! Get some empathy. You who disparage the movement, you have no idea.
7
My gratitude to Ms. Deneuve for her common sense.
Her comments have met with the inevitable "backlash". That should come as not surprise given the indiscriminate way in which #MeToo sentiments has made few to no distinctions between an Al Franken and a likely felonious Weinstein.
So, it's good to get an international perspective from Ms. Deneuve.
(BTW, for the ageists and sexists-male, female, or none-accusing Ms. Deneuve of being obsolete, you do no credit to yourselves.)
320
Reality check! This makes a lot of sense to me!
86
Can it be said that there is some truth to this point of view?
133
I'd rather not denounce a fellow woman, but this is so unpleasant.
Deneuve's perspective is all very predictable - she made a lifelong career out of being attractive to men. She was raised a Catholic and attended Catholic schools. She worked with Roman Polanski and others who are known for their misogyny. And - it has to be said - she's French. France ain't no place to be a feminist.
123
and yet she is more free and knows when to call a cat a cat instead of waging an all out assault that will eventually discredit a just cause.
10
Just a place to be free, which is not and never was comfortable.
3
"France ain't no place to be a feminist." Pardon?
5
I can't help but hear common themes attributed to women, by men. For decades if a woman wasn't sexually interested, she was labeled cold and frigid. Women were called fragile and weak, ovely emotional and sensitive. Those themes were used to manipulate us into sexually satisfying our partners to their satisfaction, to keep us afraid, to keep us quiet, and contained. We've had to internalize those labels for generations. It's interesting hearing the voices projecting those themes again. It's as if those arguing against the MeToo movement actually believe the lie that women are overly emotional and incapable of knowing the difference between an awkward flirtation and abuse.
It's important to acknowledge the nuance that some women may abuse the shift of power to manipulate a situation to their benefit. That's not to be confused with a woman's capability of knowing the difference between abuse and mistake. It's also shameful that acknowledgement of abuse is being correlated to weakness. That makes me think of "taking it like a man" which is another projection from the patriarchy. Victims coming forward are strong. I wish the conversation shifted a bit more to allow room for these nuances.
73
Finally, some voices of reason and intelligence on this very important issue.
138
Deneuve and the other women who are co-signers of this letter totally miss the point: harassment is NOT simple “flirtation.” It is UNWANTED. It is often frequent and repetitive and insistent. It tends to use a man’s or a woman’s superior position to intimidate or coerce. It is inappropriate and doesn’t belong in on the job relationships.
Has it been the case that many men and women do “flirt” etc. Well, doh — yes, of course. But it is also the case, and painfully so, that decades of inappropriate, sometimes physical intimidation, has been common and accepted and women have not been believed, could not get their complaints heard in the office or in the Court. THAT is what this is about. Continuing to “make nice” and excuse all such behavior by belittling its horrors is a betrayal of the humanity of most women, who are not rich or in a position of power or even in a position to get away from obnoxious or physically threatening behavior.
All women should be secure in their persons from such behavior. It costs most men and women very little, as well, to curb offensive language. Excuse making and minimizing the actual threat posed by harassment to women’s lives and careers is itself offensive, though perfectly predictable. When women change their own reactions and behavior those around them resist. A better future never arrives by continuing the same behaviors and attitudes for millennia.
236
" It is inappropriate and doesn’t belong in on the job relationships."
Catherine Denueve does not disagree with you, why the red herring?
6
I agree with much of what you say but in application accusations sometimes lead to what I consider to be excessive punishments.
Take the oft cited case of Al Franken. The majority of the complaints against him were, essentially, 'he put his hand on my butt during a photo op.' For each claimant this was not frequent, not repetitive, not insistent, it was not meant to intimidate and it was not in a workplace. And yet, now Al Franken is gone.
I think that this is the sort of thing that Ms. Deneuve is talking about.
5
Franken was stabbed in the front by his "friends."
2
This headline is so misleading as to have to have been intentionally misleading. There is no denouncement.
The "Deneuve Letter" is instead a call to reason, for the recognition of degree and quality; an unwanted entreaty or clumsy expression of affection or joy, is not tantamount to an abuse of power or criminal assault: Al Franken is not Harvey Weinstein, or Bill Cosby, or Kevin Spacey.
...And the inability to admit a requisite "mens rea" will rightfully doom a righteous cause.
236
Complicit. The single thing that the women's movement fails to recognize is how many women profit from the status quo. Women like Deneuve weaponized her sexuality in exchange for a brilliant career. Hollywood is filled with similar figures. Perhaps she's "tougher" than this current crop of women but make no mistake, her failure to speak out against "clumsy flirting" in her day, has brought us to where we are today. She can dismiss the #Metoo all she wants but let's be clear, she does so with unclean hands.
146
"Women like Deneuve weaponized her sexuality in exchange for a brilliant career."
You're confusing Catherine Deneuve with her movie characters, and I feel you're doing it on purpose.
12
Hate women much? "weaponized sexuality", "unclean hands", "HER failure has brought us to where we are today". Really McDiddle? Thanks for explaining what the women's movement fails at- but I don't think we need to overtly blame women for rape culture because some of them are sexy movie stars. She can flirt and exchange her sexuality as much as she likes, that wasn't and won't be the reason men assault, harass, stalk, rape ...murder women.
Try writing a paragraph about how men have been responsible for their own misdeeds.
4
Deneuve makes a case for what seems to be a degree of tolerance of male aggression. But the truth is that it is the use of power as an instrument in this behavior is that is being challenged, not courtship. Her reference to Polanski seems bizarre in that his acts are extra legal and involve children, something that we find hard to defend. 'Me too' is part of a general change in the pursuit of equality for women. They are in many cultures seen essentially as chattel because they bear and nature children. The rape of women is often a presumed right of victors in war. They always take the major risk in sex of becoming pregnant. These all means that a major shift in how the two sexes interact is difficult to achieve. Humanity needs new norms of behavior. The debate will go on, the struggle is necessary.
69
"In March, Ms. Deneuve defended Roman Polanski..."
And many in Hollywood such as Meryl Streep and Whoopi Goldberg also defended Polanski. Speaking before an audience in 2009 Streep said, "Roman Polanski, I'm very sorry he's in jail." This wasn't the only time she 'stood for' Polanski; in 2003 she leapt to her feet to give the director a standing ovation when he won Best Director Oscar. Goldberg defended Polanksi in her notorious "It wasn't rape-rape" comment, stating that raping a drugged child who allegedly 'consented', which is impossible, wasn't the same as rape. Cate Blanchett named one of her sons after him.
When Polanski was arrested in Zurich in 2009 in a failed attempt by the US to extradite him, more than 100 celebrities signed a petition demanding his release.
To be fair, it wasn't only women who showered adoration and defended him. Many men such as Martin Scorsese were amongst those standing and applauding. George Clooney, for his part, found it “frightening to imagine that people are still after him (Polanski),” when some where demanding he be removed from presiding over the 2016 Cesar Awards film festival.
I understand why the journalist mentioned Deneuve's defense of Polanski, yet context matters, and Hollywood, both male and female, has long defended and celebrated sexual abusers. Singling out Deneuve whilst neglecting to mention the context of many of her peers also defending him is a recontextualising of history.
67
Would you also say that in addition to 'recontextualizing' history, some are also being hypocrites? Or am I being a bit too direct?
4
I won't defend anyone who is going after under-aged kids or hitting on subordinates in the work place. But if we're talking about non-employee adults, yes, I think the pitch forks have come out in some instances.
I know someone this happened to in Dallas. He was fired and his career is destroyed. The media and social commentary described him trying to pick up other non-employee adults as "abuse." This man -- attractive and single in his twenties or thirties depending on time frame -- asked college girls in their twenties (except one who was nineteen, that's the youngest) -- to a bar and tried to pick them up. They didn't work for the same employer. That allegedly was "abuse" because the girls wanted to talk about their careers and some wanted to get jobs at his employer.
On social media, people are acting like a man's career should be destroyed if he chased too many skirts -- when we're talking about adults, all single, and not employees. That's going too far.
120
"...when we're talking about adults, all single, and not employees. That's going too far."
A correction: it should not matter whether they are single or married. We're not yet Saudi and should not be hunted by virtue police.
1
Finally someone who makes some sense and can offer a more nuanced approach to the whole issue. Poor Matt Damon was raked over the coals for saying the same thing.
134
Deneuve thinks it’s “excessive” to call what Roman Polanski did rape - I think dragging and raping a 13-year-old and then being too much of a coward to face the consequences is “excessive.” Was the 11-year-old in this article also afflicted by “self-victimization”? We’re not “reducible to our bodies,” so when people violate them, it’s not that big a deal because of our inner freedom. Tell that to the 30% of rape survivors who develop PTSD.
And what exactly are these “accidents” referred to? No one has been accused of tripping and grabbing a woman’s breasts to prevent their fall. Only things that they did on purpose.
These “feminists,” like Daphne Merkin, can take their backwards beliefs back to the 19th century.
48
Well, darn. And so many of you thought this would be the first issue in history where everyone expressed exactly the same opinion.
13
Um, I don’t think anyone thought that.
3
it's still complicated. i agree that flirtation, even explicit asking if someone will have sex with you, is not abuse, though a woman may find it offensive. still, it is not criminal activity. but when it is persistent past the point of letting a woman know that a man (or woman) is interested in a woman or wants to have sex with her that the line gets blurry for me.
How much is "too much"? Is every touch on a shoulder during conversation sexual assault? (I say no, and I am aware that there are serious accusations of rape and other criminal activities in the public disclosures which do not fall into the category of a touch on a shoulder.)
These are fine lines, but we must remember that one part of this French letter is correct: An accusation has become a life changing conviction, without the chance to respond due to the pubilc atmosphere that when a woman speaks, what she says is true exactly as she says it. Well, guess what? The fact that women have been vilified, controlled, manipulated, assaulted, raped, and even killed, by male creeps and criminals, does not mean that what women say is true. And, that is why there must be some way for all the facts, all the stories and versions of events to come out IN EVERY CASE where there is an accusation.
I do not speak from the privilege of not having been abused, by the way. But while I did not seek to be abused, i also do not seek to abuse in another way, as is currently being done in the public arena, no matter what.
31
The culture in Europe is far different than the Puritan culture that is once again increasing in the US.
53
"The culture in Europe is far different than the Puritan culture that is once again increasing in the US."
Lack of culture/civility does not qualify for a "different" culture.
3
Wow, a rational argument that identifies how the "me too" movement accomplishes the very opposite of empowering women to stand up to bullies. (Instead "me-too" and its trite progeny encourages women to become social-media bullies themselves.)
Now Deneuve's stance takes courage! Just wait and see the social stoning that she receives from the out-of touch damsels in distress of Hollywood and beyond.
126
If some, such as Asia Argento, are unable to recognize the excesses of the (much needed) #MeToo movement, then they are engaging in excesses themselves.
Thank you, Ms. Deneuve, for speaking out on the complexities of sexual relationships. Very little about this issue is simple and to try to over-simplify it will inevitably lead to harmful consequences.
24
the ones who will suffer from the excesses of the victim movement will be women. decent men are already shunning women to varying degrees and punishing them for their opinions on this matter. the real price will be that nice, gentlemanly and stable men will not approach women with serious interest and the one's that do will be the aggressive cads with little to offer and nothing to lose.
13
Baloney.
My husband is an executive and leads thousands and that has not been his experience. In his view, if you are a man who treats women respectfully, this should not impact you. That kind of talk "will suffer" is nothing more than a veiled threat intended to make men feel like they are entitled and women will be punished for speaking out--but it doesn't make it accurate.
Did it make it harder for African Americans to speak out about racism? I don't think so. Did it hurt the LGBTQ movement to speak out about homophobia?
Things may not be perfect but accepting the status quo for fear of offending the patriarchy is MALARKEY. You are flat out wrong.
46
"...and the one's that do will be the aggressive cads with little to offer and nothing to lose."
Yep, we always win!
2
It's probably too simple to say that when you've made your living as an object of male desire, you really don't want the rules to change. Deneuve is finishing the job of making herself irrelevant. Or maybe she's hoping Harvey Weinstein can still get her in a movie.
31
So you are saying what? That wimen do not have the right to have autonomy over their bodies, tgeir careers, the way they conduct their relationships at every level? Thatca woman has no right to be a sexual being, to be beautiful and desirable? That such a woman has no right to acknowledge her attractiveness and work in an industry and profession that acknowledges it? Wow. Talk about Femininazism. Way to infantilize women and reduce them to your own ideals of what and how is “appropriate” for women to be and behave.
It’s also clear that you are not familiar with Ms. Deneuve’s career, nor the majority of roles she has undertaken during it. Also, Helen Mirren, another actor of the same generation, who -gasp - took her clothes off more than once in a picture, has also expressed much the same concerns as Ms. Deneuve, her fellow authors of this statement, and countless othe intelligent, thinking women. Here’s a news flash: the fact a woman has been proud of and used her body and self in her career does not negate her intelligence, the validity of her beliefs and ideas, nor her right to voice them. Or to expect and demand respect and equality.
11
She is an excellent actress and her talent and intelligence endure. But you wouldn't understand that.
I won't defend Roman Polanski, but isn't it obvious that there have been rushes to judgment, and that there is a big difference between Harvey Weinstein and Al Franken?
Isn't it obvious that accused men -- as human beings -- should have a fair opportunity to defend themselves?
Isn't it obvious that the real offenders win when the pendulum swings too far?
79
Ann,
"Isn't it obvious that accused men -- as human beings -- should have a fair opportunity to defend themselves?"
No, it isn't. If Oprah says time's up, it's the executioner's job from here.
There's no rule of law where the media and celebonkies rein.
To be fair, the words “Me Too” suggest assault victims who’ve had enough, standing together in solidarity. The French versiin “Expose Your Pig” sound much more anarchist and vigilante, inviting unintended consequences. I prefer the former approach.
The French know a thing or two about revolutions being taken to extremes, and damaging innocent people.
6
It’s so easy when no one has to admit wrongdoing. But, despite what this letter claims, the women saying #metoo did not self-victimize - they were victimized by someone else.
3
The approach is the same, though, even though the title is different. Some women write anonymous articles to give testimony of some unnamed men's advances and their reactions. Some expose men on twitter or Facebook and release witch hunts. Some report agressors to the police. In the end, it all hinges on the level of reflection the individuals involved are capable of.
Our last revolution is long over, by the way. We don't just have that sort of thing in our bones.
What a conundrum. We humans are sexual beings, and socially dependent on each other, so our interactions ought to allow some 'give and take'... as long as it is consensual, without the need of any lawyerly drafted contract typing the minute specifics...killing our imagination and complementary enjoyment. The abuse of power, sexual and otherwise, and usually perpetrated by men (perhaps by 'virtue' of their superior muscle strength/size/hormonal urges/a 'macho' culture of permissiveness), is to be proscribed of course. And rape ought to require jail. As to whether an abusive male, especially if truly repentant, deserves to lose his job, remains a debatable subject, especially if that individual has supervisory power over female employees...unless women are automatically assign to replace such subject, to level things towards justice. I concur that victimized women do not lose their integrity nor humanity by having been subject to abuse, the psychological or bodily injury subject to the best treatment/counselling available. Both sides (U.S. and French opinions) should cool down a bit emotionally, and allow reason and common sense some room to give us some perspective. Incidentally, we must change our patriarchal society to one of a man-woman duality that fully complements each other, given that women are, by and large, more mature and secure and down-to-earth than we men could ever be; so, we must be nurtured since infancy in a loving environment of mutual respect.
3
Brava, Catherine Deneuve!
13
The problem isn't that women don't know the difference between clumsy flirting and sexual assault, the problem is that men like Harvey Weinstein do not.
175
Well said!!
6
Thank you Catherine. Not only are you beautiful; your brilliant. Is that sexual harassment:)?
Woman are amazing they are doing everything men do and should get equal pay and rights. This whole me #too thing is bringing women and men backward, not forward. Men are going to be afraid to hire or even ask someone out.
12
"In March, Ms. Deneuve defended Roman Polanski, the director who pleaded guilty in 1977 to having sex with a 13-year-old girl and who was accused by two other women of forcing himself on them when they were under age. While appearing on a French television channel, Ms. Deneuve said, “It’s a case that has been dealt with, it’s a case that has been judged. There have been agreements between Roman Polanski and this woman.”"
If that is her position on Polanski the convicted pedophile, then really one need read no further.
44
Thanks, NormBC....her defense of Polanski sums up the problem. What is her real motivation? Why would she and other women ever defend men who abuse or disrespect women. Instead of identifying with the victims, do they somehow identify with men who seek to show their ability to dominate and control women? Or what? I'm puzzled.
2
Meredith, Deneuve and her fellow travelers are classic "Cool Girls." They put other women down to make themselves look good.
2
Where’s the English translation of the full statement the NYT did? Did I miss the link? I’d like to read the whole thing. Thanks!
2
Can anyone find an English translation anywhere of the full statement? If so, please post it here.
No, it is not ok for the boss to "clumsily flirt" with his female employees. These French women got it wrong.
28
kynola,
"No, it is not ok for the boss to "clumsily flirt" with his female employees. These French women got it wrong."
They did not say it was ok, they said it wasn't a crime. You got it wrong, kynola, or just chose to obfuscate.
11
It is a crime if the attention is unwanted and he persists. Or if he makes it a condition of employment, bonuses, or promotions. That's what Deneuve and her fellow travelers refuse to see.
2
Seems like the women most critical of the Me Too movement are beyond established in their careers and too old for sexual-misconduct to be a serious threat to their continuing in and advancing them and want other women to just shut up and feed the status quo that has already worked out to their benefit.
27
Some prominent women in France, the nation that lionized Dominique Strauss-Kahn until he was in hand-cuffs in NYC, think that #MeToo has gone to far? Oh, please!
209
"The nation that lionized Dominique Strauss-Kahn?" Oh, please! The U.S. is the nation that empowered Donald Trump. Learn some humility before you spout your xenophobia.
9
"Some prominent women in France, the nation that lionized Dominique Strauss-Kahn..."
You must be confused, Fred
It's France; they "lionize" nobody, neither villain nor the victim. They don't have the American complex of worshipping victims and self-victimization.
The French know what freedom and respect are, and that the two are inseparable.
11
You seem to be forgetting the fact that all the charges against DSK were dropped.
6
Sorry, Ms. Deneuve and supporters - TIME'S UP!!!
It is interesting to note that the majority of French people who belong to a religious organization still support the catholic church - even after Napoleon grabbed the crown from the catholic priest and put it on his own head to break the "Roman-catholic" power structure in France. That was after the French Revolution when the masses took the heads off "royalty", their offspring and their supporters.
Ms. Deneuve and the others can continue to be "handmaidens" for the male supposed power brokers if they wish - no one is stopping them. But the vast majority of women around the world agree - TIME'S UP for men, and women, trying to dictate what women do with their bodies and lives.
132
Just a nimble clarification: it is impossible to say that the majority of women agree with that vision.
Taking ONLY southeast Asia, all muslim countries, and a good deal of Africa and Latin America you see that the majority of women IN THE WORLD do not have the freedom to share that point of view..
Unless, you are thinking that you havr some sort of superiority -Americans always know better- with respect of the majority of the women in the world.
3
You were trying to make a point about French people and the Catholic Church? And what would your next point be, that many of the #MeToo accused are Jewish?
2
Catherine Renueve is from a different time, a time when touching a knee, trying to steal a kiss or seeking about 'intimate' things at a work dinner -- exactly what does she mean by 'intimate'? -- was acceptable.
I'm sorry, but these things are simply not acceptable at work. Men in Hollywood are in power across the board. In Hollywood last year, 4% of the films were directed by women, 82.1% of prestigious C‐suite Hollywood jobs were held by males and only 17.9% by females.
https://womenandhollywood.com/resources/statistics/2017-statistics/
In other areas, women accounted for 13% of writers, 17% of producers, 17% of editors and 5% of cinematographers.
So, when a man puts his hand on your knee, or tries to steal a kiss or talks about whether you're good in bed or whatever other 'intimate' thing he feels like talking about, and he is your superior, this is not sexual freedom, this is actually repressing women.
Rape and sexual harassment are obviously not the same thing. However, in a patriarchy, which we all still live in, sexual harassment is not sexual freedom.
703
Such a good point. There is no sexual freedom for victims of harassment or rape.
29
Thank you for the itinerary of pointless statistics that have nothing to do with the issue at hand. Structural problems did prevent women from rising to the C-suite of Hollywood but that is undoubtedly changing. This constant parade of grievances is getting ridiculous when it ends up destroying careers on hearsay alone.
Your comment is the kind of capricious petulance that sees fit to ruin people's lives in the pursuit of personal vendettas. Rather than harassment, the only thing all these women share is a collective feeling of insecurity and revenge opportunism.
In fact, to conflate the victimhood of the women who spoke out against Weinstein or Polanski to those made uncomfortable by "intimate" conversation topics at dinner is to inexcusably diminish the former. If you truly feel compelled to exact change on the status quo with regard to male attitudes toward women (because it does need to change) be a little more judicious in the kinds of behaviors you choose to attack. Start asking for signed documentation of sexual consent and kangaroo courts for those who engaged in clumsy flirtation and you will further embolden the half of the country that was desperate enough to elect Trump to deal with this absurdity.
36
It seems to me, that like several other women, you are saying it is OK to destroy men's lives in order to have women replace men in charge of industries they created and developed, so women can grab the power and the majority.
22