After all of the articles in the Times about Catalonia's push for independence from Spain, there has been nothing indicating WHY the Catalans, or many of them, should want to separate from Spain.
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The stalemate continues. The author fails to mention that Ciudadanos won both the most seats and votes until the end of the article. While unable to form a government with a majority of deputies, their unambiguous response to Catalan nationalism, rather than the perceived dithering of Rajoy's PP or the Catalan socialists, suggests movement within the constitutionalist block. Notable also is the decline of the CUP, a separatist anti-system party. They retain the role of kingmaker for the separatists to form a legislative majority and insist on unilateral secession as the price of their support. The formation of a regional government will be an even more tortured process due to the legal issues that flow from such an electoral result.
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Not all those who voted for a separatist party will necessarily vote to break up a country when the stakes are much greater. So the 47pc. looks kind of weak right now.
At the same time probably strong enough that the Spanish government does not want to play chicken.
Puidgemont has been reckless, without a strong mandate he has put Catalonia and all of Spain in a very uncomfortable situation that will not end soon.
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When a government has the power to be gentle with an ethnic group and unfortunately chooses to physically beat non violent protesters trying to vote, the outcome should come as no surprise. Mr Rajoy basically blew it.
I’m back from 2 weeks in Barcelona having many conversations with friends and family, pro and con independence, all agreed the heavy hand was unjustified and moved the electoral needle. A month ago I️ listened to EU ambassador Toledo get caught in lie after lie on BBC hardtalk. Belgium was not going to extradite Puidgemont because he did not advocate violence.
What did a Spanish judge do? Drop the extradition to avoid the embarrassment of failure. A political move unbecoming of a judge. So, here we are. Hopefully the judge will make another political decision to deescalate the tension and drop all charges and move back to dialogue. The EU has become impatient with Mr Rajoy as should we.
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The Spanish high court dropped the extradition request not because of Mr. Puidgemont's virtues but because they want to charge him with all three crimes; illegal spending of public monies; sedition; and rebellion. The Belgian law does not have a matching definition of rebellion so Spain would have to accept that, as a condition of extradition, he would only be charged with the first two. The EU would have no reason not to support the extradition as Puidgemont's rights as an accused criminal would be in tact. Spain is a member state in good standing. The only embarrassment is Puidgemont's cowardly "flight to Varennes."
Having watched, up close and personal, Spain's magnificent transition to democracy, I am sickened by the sight of Spain being ripped apart, mostly to satisfy the pride of political leaders.
Arguably, the original sin rests with the Catalan pols who whipped up an independence fever mostly to increase their own popularity when an expansion of their autonomy would have served the common good, now lost in what is likely to become fratricide.
But Rajoy is the driving force behind the separatist victory. I can't imagine any Spanish leader other than Rajoy or Franco who would have handled the Catalans so badly. Certainly not Adolfo Suarez (RIP) or Felipe Gonzalez, who along with King Juan Carlos, many unsung heroes and, above all, the Spanish people made the nation's peaceful transition to democracy.
Had Rajoy had the wit to step down after suffering several electoral repudiations which left him with the ability to block others from taking the reins, a new leader of his party might have been able to bridge the gap. Now, the intransigence of Rajoy and the Catalan separatiist leadership is likely to leave Spain in tatters.
Writing from afar, it is easy to err, so my hope is that I am wrong and that some reasonable accomodation will be reached.
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Sorry, but after 700 years, it's high time that Catalunya does the splitsville and leaves the Imperialist Castilians.
Rajoy's attempt to "Pull a Franco" made things much worse. Meanwhile, the globalists who run the EU also reneged on their original promises by blocking an independent Catalunya as an EU member state.
I thought that was the original idea.. to allow Europeans to gain self determination within a Pan European Union... but the masks in Brussels are off. It's all about the estalishment of a Fourth Reich.
IMHO, the future of Spain will be a Federalist Union... otherwise, I'd recommend that Catalunya join the UK. They can have a nice London-Gibraltar-Barcelona ferry, the English gain access to good food and Barça and Manchester City can play awesome matches in the Premier Leage!
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With Spain imprisoning separatists. with Austria favoring ultra-right, with the UK being no more, with Greece and Italy being the garbage bags for illegal immigrants, with France and Germany fighting of who's in charge, the EU is no more. Beethoven's 9th "Alle Menschen Werden Bruder" is history - still great but dead.
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Rajoy's crackdown and his blinkered miscalculation about the Catalans' democratically expressed desire for independence suggest that the fascist strain still thrives in Spain. As for the EU, not all separatist movements are fueled by nativism. Madrid and EU are ignoring the Catalans' majority vote at their peril.
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Of course there has never been a majority vote in favor of separatism. The article makes plain that 47% voted in favor of the three separatist parties. If there were a hypothetical referendum with the clear consequence of leaving the EU as the price of secession, that number would top into the low thirties.
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if you took the time to read the whole article, you would notice that the separatists obtained a majority if seats in parliament but did not obtain a majority of actual votes. Rural areas need fewer actual votes to elect a representative. The popular vote was won by the people that wish to continue being part of spain.
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If one reads this section of the article: "Over all, the separatists won only about 47 percent of the votes, according to the preliminary results, but they benefited from a voting system that favors their dominance in rural areas.", the title and the rest seems pretty biased. In fact, It is a case very similar to Trump: loose popular vote, win in parlament seats and radically set to transform the system.
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The best thing is to hold a new referendum, a legal one, that is, on which both sides agree. If Catalans vote in favor of separation, let them go. Nothing is worse than growing tension between a region and the rest of the country, possibly leading to violence. And it does not really matter that much if Catalonia is independent or not since it will be an EU member.
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I couldn't agree with you more!
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you are wrong my friend.
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Let's be clear: the Catalán nationalists won in terms of seats (though winning fewer than they did two years ago), but lost the popular vote by 52% to 47.5%. Their feeling of popular vindication is delusional, and Campuzano's claim that a majority of Catalans want a referendum (let alone independence) is clearly not supported by the facts. Alas, such are the times we live in. Trump and his supporters--the Catalan nationalists' trans-Atlantic cousins in extremist populism--also claimed to be vindicated in the presidential election last year, despite losing the popular vote by a sizable margin as well.
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It seems that the shock-wave being felt in Madrid right now is the result of the central government's talking points crashing down onto the rocks of reality.
After the referendum result, Madrid maintained that the referendum was fraudulent and that only a small minority of voters wanted independence.
Now that this has been exposed as a lie, the central government is in a bind - either they abandon democratic rule and keep Catalonia a part of Spain or they recognize democratic rule and let Catalonia go.
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I spent one of the happiest years of my life in Catalonia, just on the French side of the border, deep in the Pyrenees. That fact of placement, on one side or the other of the border, mattered little to my kind and helpful Catalan neighbors. Accordingly, my heart is with the Catalans; however, it's clear that, without participation in Europe, they are powerless in the world: same reasoning for the Scots, and so on! There's no reason why their participation has to be fully channeled through Madrid; nor that of the Scots through London; and so on. It could be in part direct, in part go through Barcelona, in part through Madrid. Much negotiation ahead, hopefully ....
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The United States, through war, sought independence from a monarchy. Catalonia, through the ballot box, seeks independence from a monarchy. Not sure why there is so much angst in the US about a colony wanting independence.
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Could someone please explain to me the benefits of an independent Catalonia?
It seems to me that it would not be benefical to the people.
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Yeah. Why?
I will not explain you the beneficies. It is simply our choise. Freedom to choice (Milton Friedman said)
Spain seems to share several traits with US politics:
1. The electorate splits 51-49, and whoever is ahead immediately declares that they have "a mandate" for whatever they want.
2. The other side's position will obviously lead to the end of the world.
On the positive side, Spain seems to be ahead of us in the "let's imprison the politicians of the other side to slow them down" theory of government. But we're catching up, so they shouldn't take too much pride there.
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This was an important victory for the Catalan independence movement.
Madrid tried to use sticks on the Catalans, but that didn't work. It's time for carrots.
The draconian measures (arrests, imprisonment, exile etc.) need to end. A sanctioned referendum should be negotiated. In the meantime, Madrid needs to consider a new financing model for Catalonia that was at the heart of the problem (though now, the problem is much deeper).
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Too late. Moreover, for Spain to negociate a new financing model is the same result as the independecy. As a MP said more o less Of course we don't love them but we need them
If the Spanish persist in ignoring the will and desires of a significant portion of that Catalonians, they will risk having the extreme elements resort to violence. there's a very nifty quote from John F. Kennedy that can be applied here...
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Something to say: Puigdemont is not in exile, he is somebody who has leave his country beaucouse is called for breaking the law. The news say "once again winning" but in fact the separatits have 47 percent of votes, that is not a mayority. They want to proclaim the republic ignoring the 53 percent of Catalonians. A diferent thing is the number of seats in the parliament that is not fair. Puigdemont sais that with the 83 percent of Catalonians have vote but doesn´t says that only 47 percent vote for independentists partys.
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Something to say: Puigdemont is not in exile, he is somebody who has leave his country beaucouse is called for breaking the law. The news say "once again winning" but in fact the separatits have 47 percent of votes, that is not a mayority. They want to proclaim the republic ignoring the 53 percent of Catalonians. A diferent thing is the number of seats in the parliament that is not fair. Puigdemont sais that with the 83 percent of votes, the total of the votes, but one again to say that they only have 47 percent, not enough to procaim a Republic. The separatist lying once and again, is why I right here trying to clarify some questions.
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Who is lying ?
- To be in exile means to be away from one's home (i.e. city, state, or country), while either being explicitly refused permission to return or being threatened with imprisonment or death upon return. Obviusly always for breaking the law but, in this cas, without sentence and only with a false accusation of use of violence ( typical accusation of manual of all the dictatorships).
- Mr. Rajoy ruled Spain for 4 years (2011-2015) with absolut mayority with the 44 percent of the votes. Yes, 47 percent of votes is usually a mayority.
- They (the secesionist) don't want proclaim the independence ignoring the 53 percent of the catalans, they only wanted organize a self-determination referendum. Mr. Rajoy sent police to avoid the referendum like all the readers can remember
Who is lying ?
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The idea that this was just an independence referendum is laughable. The entirety of the project was designed to use the power of the regional government to engineer a favorable result in a phony referendum. The better way to say it would be that the unilateral secessionist bid was stopped by the constitutional intervention of the Spanish government.
Well, in this case, the separatists.
- The winner of the elections is Ciutatans. Even if the separatists don't even talk about it.
- 47% of the vote is a majority if the other 53% remaining consist of different ideas, however, in this case, the other 53% don't want the independence, ergo, 47%, in this case, is the minority party. Another issue is the seats. there the separatists have the majority.
- They (the secessionist) already proclaimed and independence in a similar situation than now, Ignoring the rest of the Catalans. In the 2015 elections, they didn't win by votes (again less than 50%) but won by seats.
- Again, the figures are: 53% of the Catalans DONT want independence. That is the fact. Seats don't matter here. Which means Separatists don't care about the other 53% of "Botiflers" (traitors). They hide behind the seats.
- I don't support the actions of the police, but you do lack to mention that the referendum was illegal. the constitution says that the whole of Spain has to vote it. A constitution voted by the Catalans themselves. If you dont like it vote to change it
- I guess the judges will say if they broke the law or not, but you cant just leave cause you like it. Many people are imprisoned and then declared innocent.
- I would like to see how USA would react if a state would suddenly, unilaterally do a referendum to secede. How long would the Federal government take to act? what happened when the Southern states seceded from the Union?
"The one side "won only about 47% of the votes but they benefitted from a voting system that favors their dominance in rural areas". Where have I seen that before? Oh yeah, right here in America. Well Putin must be happy. Does Facebook have stupid, gullible, customers in Catalonia?
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Despite the slant in the Times report, the Nationalists won a larger percentage of the parliamentary seats than the unionists. Rajoy lost his "bet," as Cameron did on Brexit and as May did in June.
But why does the EU fear separatism? The Czech Republic and Slovakia survived. As have the sundry parts of Yugoslavia. Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Sud-Tyrol (Alto Adige), Brittany, Walloonia, etc., would each be a larger part of the EU than corrupt Malta.
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You might perhaps recall that the breakup of Yugoslavia was very bloody. Yes, the Czechs & Slovaks separated peacefully but that's definitely the exception, not the rule.
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Poland and Hungary will have a new friend.
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Why do you say this? I certainly don't know the details of Catalunyan politics but I would not expect an independent Catalunya to be right-wing.
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Barcelona should secede from Catalonia.
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These Elections have shown that to break the unity of Spain (as a whole Nation) is not shared by a good sector of Catalonians. Check the results of Ciudadant's and the eloquent leadership of Ines Arrimada...Catalonia is pluralistic in culture and politics. The times of a monolithic Catalonya are over. Time is for diversity and inclusiveness. Catalonya is not an Island any more but part of a whole Spain and a whole Europe. Chauvinism was valid in the XIX and XX Century. But in this world without borders...fences are useless.
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" When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them,"
I support the right of people who feel that their political futures would be better controlled on a local level. I see no essential difference between the desire of the Catalan people to be free of Madrid and the desire of the American people to be free of London.
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Difference is that the USA where a colony of England and the Americans who wanted to break were majority. Catalonia has been part of Spain for more than 500 year, from before America was discover by Spain. And the most important: the separatist are 47 percent of Catalonians. 53 percent don´t want the independence.
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It is so paradoxal when unonist count the votes of the Comuns as their own, when they are 100% pro referendum and have independentists in their lists. But I guess if you don't count them your 53% which is not even real with your division falls considerably..
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The same happens with separatists, saying that all their voters are pro-independence is false. There are angry voters or want more autonomy or where the "moderates nationalists" go?
The results were similar to ours with a minority based primarily in rural areas voting for the Cataline nationalist (Trump) slate and the majority voting for the internationalist looking slate (Clinton). This is the type of divide that prevails worldwide whether it be the UK or Alabama. The forward looking living in more urban and better educated environs and the backward looking living in the rural and less educated environs.
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To compare pro independece voters with Trump voters is show a complete ignorance of Catalan demographics, pro independence voters are more educated and with higher income, you can find this statistics with a simple google search
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Trump is a nationalist. They are all dangerous for a shared planet.
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I understand that Catalonia wants to leave Spain, a country that has represented the last wheels of European progressive thinking. If you want more answers, look at all the Spanish ex-colonies today….and you will find them.
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If you look at the places where there is the most conflict in the world you will realize that most of them are past British colonies. Old Spanish colonies by comparison are doing very well. Look at the Middle East; look at Africa, Pakistan, India, parts of Asia as well as the deep American South. Wherever you see traces of British colonialism you see injustice and discrimination. Next time you should look in the mirror before you criticize Spain.
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Old Spanish colonies are doing very well? You mean countries like Cuba (the latest) or Venezuela. I see you are a proud Spanish but you must see the reality as well
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Great two cases!
Cuba was almost or even richer than Spain until Castro. You can actually research this. Spain wasn't the richest country in the world in the 1900s.
Venezuela, i guess you can check the news and why that is going well.
Other colonies, ye, you can argue, but those two... And you cant talk about Latinamerica in the the XX century without intervention of the USA: most of the have been independent for over 200 years.
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"A building in Girona, Spain, decorated with pro-independence flag flags. Separatist parties now face difficult negotiations to decide how to put their secessionist project back on track" The photo shows calatonian constitutional flags, these ones are not pro-indenendence.
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I understand that Catalonia wants to leave Spain ... one of the last wheels of the European progressive thinking.
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A precise summary of the results of the elections in Catalonia yesterday . I wish the majority of Spanish newspapers were so concise , unbiased and clear while reporting on a complex situation that the current government of Spain has not been able to appreciate and handle with minimal sensitivity for the last several years . The sad thing is that there is now bad feelings between the people of Catalonia and the rest of Spain and people within Catalonia . It is time for leaders that foster the reconciliation or else the separation will be unavoidable and everybody will loose .
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Although narrower majority, number of votes increased. Don‘t forget election participation rised from 76% in 2015 to 82% now, mostly opponent votes
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I watched as Ronald Reagan accepted a knighthood from Great Britain after leaving office.
Since then and perhaps before him too, U.S. foreign policy is in full support of not only Britain but every Gulf monarchy this side of the Middle East and beyond!
Our so called “Special Relationships“. They can do no wrong.
As someone who laments, as I see it, the undoing of the American Revolution here in America, I was heartened to see Catalonia reject their monarchy, in yesterday’s vote.
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Catalan separatists are predictably trying to make much of the results, to squeeze out as much momentum as they can.
Truth be told, their movement is faltering. In the October referendum that was obviously unconstitutional, and also non-transparent, the separatists claimed "90% support." In fact, they have nothing of the sort.
With a turnout two times higher (plus some) on December 21 in what was a transparent, credible and constitutionally sound election, well below 2 million of the votes cast went to the 'sovereign Catalunya' parties.
By contrast, more than 2.4 million votes were cast against independence. Simply add up all the non-independence votes and you get the actual numbers of voters who turned out yesterday, who did not agree with the separatists that Catalans need their own independent country.
Regardless of what the loudmouths say, Rajoy's government has a good hand in Madrid, under the circumstances. Spain has leverage over the secessionists. With each passing day, an "independent Catalunya" becomes less and less likely ever to come to fruition.
Common sense & economic realities are prevailing over naive enthusiasm & the wishful thinking of self-serving opportunistic demagogues.
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The numbers are actually above 2 million votes, more than in the referendum you are mentioning..but seeing that you qualify the corruption full government of Rajoy as a good government I can see you way to see the reality.
The reality is that the pro independence parties got more than 2m votes, more than the unionist ones, because the Comuns, pro referendum, are not to be considered under the unionist window nor the pro independence.
So before you insult and call people demagogues, stop faking data.
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It may soon be time for the West and East Coast to secede from Trump's 'Merica just like Catalonians are doing from Spain.
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And, if desired by the residents/citizens, should be supported by all who believe in freedom and self determination. I don't think you'd see the whole of either coast going to a PPUS (People's Progressive United States) but still, I'd support their choice.
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Please do not leave those of us in the Midwest and South with progressive views behind to have every aspect of our lives controlled by the backward looking in our nation.
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The referendum created more doubt. The Europe wide fear of separatism seemed to give Rajoy a strong hand. It seems like a new round of national and regional votes are necessary.
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In other words, if you don't like the election results, just keep calling new ones until you do? This is why I like the system of scheduled election that we have in the US.
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