So much confusion and so much opportunity for malicious misremembering. My counsel to all men: Celibacy and Same Sex Education. Between vicious feminism and endless female victimhood there is almost no sexual encounter between genders that is not an existential threat to a man in every "first world" country. To begin an intimate encounter with any woman today is an existential risk, perhaps not worth taking. So, to all men in the U.S., let the third world populate the next generation. You should focus exclusively on competing with your cut-throat female competitors,their feminist professors and their media enablers. They will continue, though less easily, to fall victim to men like Wiener, Weinstein, Franken, the Kennedy's (Ted and JFK), Bill Clinton and all the others who profess support of abortion and equal rights.
30
I agree with Wanda Delamere and think she’s on the right track. In our desire to stop men from taking sexual advantage of women, whether through rape or other forms of sexual assault, we seem to have fallen into the trap of assuming that even when no actual violence is involved, women do not have the courage to say “no” to men behaving sexually in ways they don’t like; that if women say “yes” or “no” we can’t rely on their actually meaning “yes” or “no” (something which may be true of women, but is no doubt also true of men - I’m sure many people say “yes” or “no” to many things they’d rather say the opposite to, but we still take them at their word); and that if a woman says she has been sexually abused, we have to believe her - a notion that particularly disturbs me as a lawyer who knows how easily people can cause trouble for other people if their words are to be automatically believed, with or without evidence or analysis.
Because men do impose themselves sexually on women (or sometimes on other men), there are complicated questions to be untangled here. It’s good that we’re discussing them publicly in ways we often haven’t done. But a simplistic rush to judgment is not the answer. I think it leaves us in danger of losing an important step forward that feminists fought for in the 1960’s and 70’s: the right of women to be sexual beings, just as men are, with agency and desires and the ability to take pleasire in sex.
19
The message of this essay is that teenage girls, and a 19 year old is still a teenager, have no business having sex with boys or men. As to the rest of the discussion blaming female confusion on their upbringing, that is just so much what I like to call blame shifting. The real answer is that people ought to stop this current business of having sex at the drop of a hat and take a step back from current practices and figure out what they really want in life. I don't see the point of being a slave to your passions. As to men always moving ahead full speed in sexual matters I think that those days have ended rather abruptly from what I hear all around. I think it best perhaps for both sexes to sit down alone and think this whole thing out. What is pretty clear is that what is is going on now just isn't working.
335
That might be the message that you took away from it, but it's certainly not what I understood it to be about.
At a stretch it could possibly be read as saying that 30+ year old men have no business picking up teenage kids for sex, but your own sentence shifts the "blame" for that encounter so neatly onto the relative child in the encounter, that I can understand why you didn't read it that way.
7
Mr. Friedlander could not possibly be more wrong. There is a reason members of the human species reach puberty in their early teens. That reason is natural selection. Back when life was shorter and medicine wasn't able to prolong life as it now can, those humans who reached puberty earlier reproduced more and those who didn't reproduced less (and perhaps not at all).
The question now is NOT how to get young humans to refrain from having sex after they reach puberty, but how to integrate the sexuality of young humans into meaningful ways they can live their lives in the world we inhabit today. Doing that must involve age-appropriate sex education (recognizing that the appropriate age might be a few years earlier than many are willing to acknowledge). Sex education that doesn't deal frankly with masturbation and contraception and options other than heterosexuality and monogamy just won't cut it anymore.
"Just say no" has no meaning unless it is possible to say yes when one wants to say yes, but when one does have the option of saying yes as well as the confidence to say no on one's own terms, the shame and guilt that can lead to these "no return" encounters are far less likely to come into play.
7
We can think about this as more then about consent but also about social expectations. I remember as a teenager, all I could think about was sex. But then it was all about necking, a girl would not let me go past second base, which worked out well, really. It turned out the few times I went any further it ended up more complicated. It is not easy to know where to draw a line and how hard it should be enforced. A lot of traditional cultures forbid any kind of mixing unless chaperoned or planned. I think you are right that some thought would help. Discourse needs to happen too, but we need to avoid this thing of people only talking to each other in their silos of like-minded.
1
Refusal to take ownership of one's decisions, denying responsibility on the grounds that 'society made me do it', taking the easy way out and then complaining that it makes you feel bad, are all signs of immaturity. I am very concerned by the the current trend in feminist discourse which implies that women are so completely in the grip of malign forces beyond their control that they cannot be held responsible for anything. If women don't want to be treated as eternal children then we have to accept that the unpleasant consequences of our choices are our own fault, no one else's.
796
Thank you for that... and I would add, that in any endeavor not knowing who you are or what you want is a recipe for trouble, and an open door to manipulation.
Just own it.
22
She's not saying one shouldn't take responsibility for one's actions. She's explaining a fairly common phenom. While I thought the short story was a poor example of it, this yes because it is easier is a real thing. Though I'd say it happens more after being pestered for sex than just I don't want to hurt his feelings.
11
Except that this is not implied in the article at all. The article points out the conundrum of agreeing to sex when we don't actually want to have sex, and ends with this statement, re women, "In some respects, it’s as if they’re in the nosebleed sections of their own sex lives. What will it take for them to come back down?" Which is clearly a call for women to take responsibility for their sexual experiences at every level possible.
12
Mostly a good essay, as was the Cat Person story, but this snippet opens the door far too wide:
"But what about a woman who doesn’t feel that she can speak up because of cultural expectations? Should that woman be considered unable to consent, too?"
8
Somehow the title says it all: When Saying ‘Yes’ Is Easier Than Saying ‘No’. And so what? Many of us, if not most of us, men and women, have had lukewarm sex encounters. You learn from them, and you avoid them or repeat them, depending on your sexual experience and maturity, and probably your moral approach towards sex. What strikes me nowadays is that what once thought to be formative (the bad romances) is now subject of shame and ratiocination. Once again, I have the feeling this discourse makes a disservice to the cause: numerous women are raped, assaulted or harassed. This is the real issue.
18
So, Yes means No and No means "Try harder", huh?
Interesting.
7
The standard of enthusiastic consent solves this problem. (The other solution is waiting to be in love as opposed to just hooking up, but this is the secular NYTimes and one just doesn’t say such things.)
When a woman literally begs you to have sex with her there is very little room for ambiguity. In fact, asking a woman if she wants to to have sex seems strange and hollow when one adopts a standard of enthusiastic consent. It should be obvious. When a woman starts ripping at your clothes, grinding her pelvis into yours, jamming her tongue down your throat and saying stuff like I want you inside of me why would a man ever normalize any other way to have sex?
Getting to the point of enthusiastic consent is the point. If most men say, yea but it’s hard to do that, then Bingo! You got work to do. Granted, it isn’t easy because the chemistry is often not there, but part of the work is recognizing this and backing off. Cat Person’s sin was that he wasn’t able to do this. (However, to be fair, a story in which they just made out a little on his couch as she surreptitiously searched for his elusive cats while he realized they weren’t in love and thus took her back to her dorm without having sex with her probably wouldn’t have made it into The New Yorker, which, really impugns us and our modern hookup culture more than deft men who are bad kissers.)
39
"There are other names for this kind of sex: gray zone sex, in reference to that murky gray area of consent"
No no one million times no!!! Consent is what you TELL the other person. Not what you are thinking to yourself. What you are claiming is insane and dangerous. If you say " yes" you have consented. period. Full stop. This is not a " gray" area. Not even close.
180
Interesting and good exploration of these fraught events; it fits with my own experiences. Even though I'm not that experienced, twice in my life I've been involved with women who, I came to find out later, wanted to have sex but wanted me to take the full responsibility of sorting through their mixed messages and make the decision for them. And, since I was also confused by this and am not an aggessive guy, I didn't have sex with either of them. (One of them even wrote me a resentfull letter afterward.) In recent weeks, there have been absolutely clear examples of outrageous and often criminal behavior by men. No lack of clarity there. This article talks instead about the gray stuff. We need to stop assuming there ever will be full clarity; sometimes, unfortunetely, only post-coital reflection tells us the true tale. The best guide to pre-coital decisions is the ancient greek aphorism "know thyself;" often only gained by experience but helped by self-reflection and confidence.
41
Victim of 5 years of childhood sexual assault/abuse here. Thrilled about all the women speaking out about their experiences. BUT - I am confused about the point this article is trying to make. Men are not mind readers. If women say yes and then later say “but iI really didn’t want to”, that’s not the men’s fault. I hope we’re not trying to blame innocent men for not guessing that a woman wanted A when she said she wanted B. Women should own up to what they say, no means no, yes means yes.
Then let’s jail men who force women after she said no.
107
Those who think it's all so simple to say "no" never went out with the divorced medical resident who, at the end of their third date, threatened to harm them physically if they didn't supply what he felt was "owed" to him and ripped their blouse to show it. "No" is the simple all-cases decision for those who don't mind having black eyes and bruises.
16
It is undoubtedly the case that consent can be a complicated issue. But there are many situations in which a particular choice can be awkward or uncomfortable, in which it is often easier to "go along to get along," and which choices we may later regret. In every other of these situations, however, we expect adults to have learned to navigate these challenging waters. I fail to see why our expectations should be any different when it comes to sex.
Other people are not mind readers, and cannot expect them to intuit every secondary factor —such as gendet roles and societally imposed expectations —that may be influencing our decisions to consent or not. We can reasonably expect people to recognize that yes means yes and no means no. To try to extend the #MeToo discussion into these grayer areas is nor only unfair, but also risks infantilizing women go the point of depriving thembof their own agency.
58
Sounds like there is lot of regret sex going on with women. Men should hold each other accountable to avoid this situation.
10
consider the New Yorker story from the man's point of view. He gave her every chance to stop the relationship, but she ignored all of them. The way it was written, she seemed to find him physically unattractive from the beginning, yet she still pursued him at least as much as he pursued him. She went to a bar with him, even though she was not 21, and he obviously thought she was at least 21, and she made no effort to inform him. He obviously was not very experienced in sexual relationships, and she should have realized that because she thought he couldn't even kiss her appropriately. She may have had more experience that he did. She encouraged him to pursue her, and then decided he was sexually inadequate because of his performance. He told her that he had feelings for her, and she rejected him. It was likely clear to him that this was because of his performance. She then ghosted him. How was he supposed to feel? Somehow, the story makes him the bad guy. She was mistreated because she regretted the sex after because it was bad. If the man in the story had been a self-assured, sexual champ, how would she have felt?
If a woman doesn't want to have sex with a man, she should communicate that fact to him. If he pursues it after that, he is guilty of sexual assault. If she makes no effort at all to communicate her feelings, he is not. There should be no gray area. Are we at the point where there has to be a written agreement before sex. Would that even solve the problem?
83
"But what about a woman who doesn’t feel that she can speak up because of cultural expectations? Should that woman be considered unable to consent, too?"
No, that woman should be labelled a "follower." Our society is in desperate need of true leaders that aren't constantly blaming their failures on others.
Unconsentual sexual encounters are awful. That's not what's described in this article, though. Let's not move into "all sex with men is rape" territory. If you went to bed with someone because it was too hard to say "no," that's something for you to work on. Yes, as a society we can do something about this, namely, letting people know they need to speak up for themselves. Moreover, if they don't have the ability to speak up, there are two natural answers: 1) life can be uncomfortable and 2) it's easier to plan ahead than it is to speak up for yourself. If you allowed yourself to be taken to bed because it was inconvenient to speak up, you've chosen one kind of discomfort (awkward sex) for another (awkward conversation/argument). That was your decision. Picking your battles is part of life; accepting that, part of adulthood. Finally, if you avoid going home with someone on the first or second date, you avoid having weird sex. If this is someone you have good rapport with and have been seeing for more than two hours, it's a lot harder for me to imagine getting to a scenario where you're no longer sure you want to have sex.
78
It seems some women want to be protected from ever feeling bad in a sexual relationship/encounter.
From an older/ wiser perspective I recommend choose a partner who is not handsome or charismatic , someone who is steady and who loves you more than you love him. Always treat him well. Look for happiness outside yourself. Look to find happiness in the good things you accomplish in the world.
BUT--if you can risk some pain, well then, the sky's the limit! I love that old song, everybody plays the fool somtiiime, no exception to the rule....
36
Does Mr Collins from "Pride and Prejudice" come to anyone else's mind? He goes on at length and in detail to explain that Elizabeth's refusal of his marriage proposal is only the well-known way of a woman's making herself appear more desirable. Meanwhile, Elizabeth is begging him to hear her as an adult who knows what she means and means what she says.
16
Let's say culture changes. Roles change. Women see more quickly what they genuinely want and don't want as opposed to what society tells them they are supposed to want. Men learn the signals of true consent better. Even then there is a bedrock level of biology behind the battle of the sexes; women and men will always to some degree want to use each other to achieve different hard-wired aims. So how much of this uncertainty and regret about partner choice or misreading of consent wouldn't exist even in a feminist utopia or among cave men and women? This piece seems to imagine a utopia in which all the anguish of relations between the sexes has disappeared. There will always be jealousy, envy, rejection, regret. That's life.
28
Might as well be upfront. I am NOT Susan Fitzwater but her husband.
And here's another turn-off. We neither of us believe in sex outside of marriage. Having gotten THAT out of the way--and turning to the few still reading this letter. . . . .
MY GOODNESS! WHAT A NIGHTMARE.
Some years back, a well-known college in the Midwest was contending with all this. SCENARIO: some young man in some young woman's room. Or maybe she's in his room? No matter. Things begin to warm up a little. The young man begins fondling--kissing--coming on to the young woman.
And it would have required Prince Otto von Bismarck to navigate his way through the rest. "Are you willing for me to do THIS?" A little later--"Well, how about THIS?" Still later--"Is it all right if I do THIS?" On and on.
Well, I"m a guy. Weighing in where (maybe) I have no business weighing in. And I don't mean to be presumptuous or arrogant or insensitive. But. . .
. . .I feel sorry for the guy. Not a lot. Just a bit. Feeling his way around not only the young woman but the young woman's "cultural presuppositions"--no! NOT just her own "cultural presuppositions" but those of society as a whole. Dating back the Lord only knows how far. Or how deep-rooted they are. Or this. . .or that. . .. or. . . . .
It was a lot simpler--wasn't it?--when you just didn't do it till you were married.
Marriage! But that's a whole different kettle of fish. Don't I know it!
20
Ms Bennett,
In brief, even yes means no. The men in your life must be confused. Please don't blame them.
55
Ok, let me get this straight. Even if a woman says yes, if it isn't the greatest sex she's ever had, if it turns out she didn't skip the light fantastic with Prince Charming, then somehow Yes still doesn't mean yes, it means No! If the woman wants it too. How about up means down, red means green, dumb means smart.
I'm a guy. I've had bad sex with women when after it was all over I thought, man that was a bad idea. I've even made a rule that you should never sleep with a woman until you've seen her in a bathing suit, just in case. And I've gotten into quasi relationships where when it's all said and done I feel like I've been manipulated. Poor me. You live and learn. You make better decisions and you look for subtle signs and you use your head, think with that instead of another appendage.
But in all things that have to do with relationships, I take personal responsibility. I don't blame the woman because even though I wanted to fool around after I got around to doing it my expectations weren't met.
This is getting sillier by the day. The me too thing. If you want to be taken seriously about sexual misbehavior let's not drag every bad experience into the mix.
Oh -- and I read that short story. I've read better sophomore papers.
96
Stick and stones can break my bones,but names can never hurt me. If the woman is not willing, it doesn't happen, unless its rape. Run a workshop of fully dressed 5 foot tall woman and 6 foot 5 man and see how far he gets without having to physically rape, its impossible .Women need to man up and take responsibility for there responses.
22
In the late '70s, when I was 21, I met my brother’s friend while visiting Northern California. He was an over-tan attorney in his 50s, attractive enough though not my type, and way too old for me. But he was friendly, and because he knew my brother, I trusted him.
He contacted me sometime later to say he was in the town where I was at college, and asked me to dinner. I was surprised but felt it safe to accept. Over the evening, he became amorous. I told him clearly that it was not what I wanted nor what I was going to do. He accepted this with grace.
Over dinner, he plied me with wine. Back at his hotel room, he was suddenly all over me. I knew then that he was not going to honor the no I’d given earlier – the one he’d so chivalrously accepted. I had an out-of-body moment, gave up and thought, let's get this over.
Afterward, he bedeviled me, calling day and night. This was before cell phones, so he was ringing the dorm phone in the hall. I had a phalanx of girls, none of whom I knew I (I was a transfer in my first semester there) fielding these calls to say I wasn't in.
Then I received a letter from him, inviting me to Cabo with him. I was stunned and enraged that he thought I would ever go anywhere with him again. I penned a pages-long response back, telling him what I thought of his behavior, and never heard from him again.
I’ve always been clear that this was not a rape. But it’s exactly the kind of complicated, unspoken and unwilling yes described in this article.
40
What , if anything, can be done about the never ending onslaught of first person articles in the NYTimes.?
People magazine with 'less' pictures.
But 'the base' will buy. Maybe.
Whether or not it will buy enough to save the NYTimes is another question.
38
“But what about when “yes” isn’t really an enthusiastic affirmative — or an affirmative at all?”
Then you use “no”.
So simple.
68
All sexual encounters are not same. There are bad, worse, and worst. Punishments for all those cannot be same and must no t be executed without due process. Punishments must fit the crime. Punishment for rape should not be same for simple touching. The situations may be different. Franken touched Huffington, but she had no problem, but for Tweeden it was a problem, though she was a Play Boy girl one time. Franken should not have been forced out from Senate by Democrats when he was claiming that he didn't do anything wrong. They made another historical blunder in the same way they defended Clintons without any reservation. It is not logical to believe all woman without some clear evidence. In NY there was a case in which one Tawana Brawley accused a law person rape when it was a fake one.
21
Look at so many Hollywood movies, marketed to young men. Incidental woman character gives main young, virile character the cold shoulder. He pursues her, she says no. He forces the issue by pinning her against the wall and kissing her. She fights back and then inexplicably submits, and then fervently participates in sex with him. Apparently this resolves their personality issues, and sublimates her career or life to his, and they walk off into the sunset together.
Young men don't learn about 'no', they learn about being physically dominant and forcing the issue to get what they want.
42
This article is absurd and unhelpful to the moment we find ourselves in. Really, people regret decisions they made?... Thanks for the news flash.
70
One aspect of achieving sexual maturity is coming to terms with one’s own desires. That means dropping the blame, guilt, fear and judgement hover around sex. With experience comes — one hopes — confidence in our own decisions around who does what to our bodies, and when. We all should be able to say no, at any point. There is no obligation to let someone penetrate at— or even touch — you. Ever.
And if you say yes, you need to own that decision.
But this path to maturity not a straight shot. Sex can be about so many things other than pleasure, or love. We all miscalculate at some time. There exists an entire continent of ”gray zone” situations where consent is assumed more than given, and it is not always one person’s fault if things aren’t clear. What if both partners are drunk or wasted? What about married couples, when one partner “really (doesn’t) want to do it but it’s probably easier to just get it over with”? It happens a lot, you know. Can a wife be raped? Yes, she can. Committed partners do bargain with themselves, and each other, over sex. Does capitulation equal consent?
OT: Although I’m always glad to see the issue of consent brought out of the shadows, the #METOO uproar has led to a rush to publish, resulting in mediocre writing getting far too much attention. I was deeply unimpressed with the New Yorker story “Cat Person.” In another climate that would not have survivied the first-cull submission pile at that once-great magazine. So disappointing!
37
As an older man, I am currently reliving a lifetime of confusion about how the female mind works when it comes to sex. Knowing when the light is green still seems as complicated as it ever was for me back in high school. It might well be that male/female relations, no matter how many 'sexual revolutions' we undergo, will always be a point of conflict. I would suggest that perhaps it is due to our simian past and the roles imposed upon the sexes by nature in conflict with layers upon layers of (ever-shifting) rules, codes, and meanings that we have imposed on this basic, biological activity. In other words, blame our big brains.
13
What this article and the New Yorker story describe is consensual sex. If you didn't enjoy it, or regret it afterwards, that doesn't mean that you didn't consent. To blame "cultural expectations" for your bad decision is immature. If you regret your decision, learn from it and move on. The culture of victimhood has gone too far. That this article appears alongside one about burning babies in Myanmar and starving children in Venezuela is a clear sign that ours is a truly decadent society.
111
Sorry, still incumbent on you to plan ahead or exit the situation before that point.
Otherwise you can’t use little bromides like “no means no” anymore, since we all have definitive cause to wonder according to the article.
12
In these discussions about implicit vs. explicit consent, I think it's important not to conflate an analysis of institutionalized and/or internalized sexism with an attack on men -- or on women, for that matter.
Only good can come from examining how men and women think and behave toward each other during casual sexual encounters. Lack of mutual understanding and good communication causes pain on both sides.
For example, 25 years ago, I was a college junior, living with 3 men and 1 other woman. We were all good friends. I'd been intermittently having consensual sex with one of the men. I was studying for a final exam one evening when a different friend came into my room uninvited to propose sex. I wasn't attracted to him, the idea of sex with him didn't appeal, and I repeatedly said no, but my only explanation was that I needed to study.
A few hours later, my roommates convinced me to take a break and go to a bar. I wasn't drunk, but my judgment was impaired. When my friend aggressively hit on me again, I gave in. I still didn't want to have sex with him and I didn't enjoy it, but went through with it because I'd agreed.
I still remember how grossed out I felt the next morning. Conversely, my friend woke up happy and wanted to make brunch together.
I was angry at him and at myself for many years. Yet he couldn't have understood how harassed I'd felt or that I'd given in, not made an affirmative choice. He wasn't a criminal, just an insensitive 21-year-old guy.
18
The value of this article is that it attempts to introduce subtlety into a discussion that has been conducted recently mostly in terms of stark black and white. Its weakness is that it often seems to imply male blame based on nothing more substantial than female regret after the fact of an unhappy sexual encounter. As others have noted, this comes across as an abdication of responsibility.
Further, unless they are entirely casual, initial sexual encounters are almost always emotionally risky experiments for both parties. But Bennett seems not to acknowledge this. Her stereotypical universe seems to be populated by sensitive women and mostly unfeeling males. This detracts from an otherwise nuanced exploration.
26
Pieces like this are doing a tremendous disservice to women. Consent is a BINARY legal concept. It either exists or it doesn't. Period. There is no in between in real life regardless of what happens in the woman's mind during and after. I read the Cat Person story when I saw a mention of it in an article saying it opened up questions about consent. It didn't seem to for me: the character clearly gave consent but regretted it once the sex began and she could tell it was going to be unsatisfactory or worse. The issue of consent is never explicitly addressed in the story. Implicitly raised in the readers' minds is the possibility that she COULD verbally withdraw her consent mid-coitus, (a legally established right) but, it's their first date, she is alone with him in his house in a suburb and she will be relying on him to drive her back to the city, so doing this would be fraught with risks. At the very least it would be "awkward." This outrages some women. As a gay man, it's a situation almost exactly like some I found myself in at the female character's age. Why did it never occur to me that I'd been sexually abused at those times? As a man, I know that withdrawing consent mid-sex is a despicable act, but not simply that. I knew that it was my own decisions that put me in the situation, I wasn't kidnapped. I was young, I was learning. Women reading more into that story than it contains are saying "I should have the right to call it rape if I regret it." Um....no.
30
Desire is complicated, and sexual desire even more complicated. It is not as if any of us know what we are doing when we become sexually active, and it is not as if it is as easy to learn as riding a bike. 'Cat Person' was good at capturing a stage of life when someone knows something but is far from knowledgeable, for both Margo and Robert (though Robert seems a bit developmentally slow, truth be told, though like Margo we readers learn very little about him and his story line). Part of learning is making mistakes, and no matter how much we understand that our desires will always be socially situated, we will also still make consensual decisions involving our desires, and especially our sexual desires, that we regret.
8
I am more aware now than I once was. I have never made a woman feel uncomfortable and get really upset when I hear of men behaving badly.
That being said, I will try to be more sensitive and it will start with expecting my dates to pay for their own food and drinks.
After all, I would hate to unwittingly perpetuate a culturally insensitive stereotype.
16
Did I agree? Did I just not fight hard enough? Was it a bad choice on my part, or on his?
Hitchhiking in southern France, summer of 1966 with a male college classmate I knew slightly; we slept in sex-segregated youth hostels.
But, during a storm, we arrived in Nice after the hostel closed for the night. One hotel was open. It had exactly one available bed.
I climbed into bed fully dressed. When he started caressing me I told him to stop. I fell asleep, exhausted, and awoke when I felt him undoing my clothes. "Stop that!"
Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. I considered curling up in a ball on the floor, locking myself in the bathroom to sleep in the tub. So very tired. So very tired. He'd probably just keep doing it on the floor or follow me into the bathroom.
Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. How had he gotten me down to underwear?
I let him take it off. Let him... what? Rape me? Have consensual sex?
Whatever it was, it's haunted me all these years. I've even Googled his name and our college, wanting to confront him. No hits.
I hope he died. Painfully.
12
Who are all these nice quiet subservient young women everyone keeps talking about?
I certainly didn't raise my daughter to be that way, and none of her friends are like that either.
Have you talked to a millennial? Have you worked with any? This is the crew that wants to know when the promotion is coming after 6 months on the job. The crew that puts things like "developed policy for X" on their resumes when they're interns.
I happen to really like young people. But I don't know one that goes along with what everyone wants to be polite.
20
I, too, work with young people. Unfortunately, sex seems to be the one area where women (or at least high school and college age girls) do not make their needs and ideas known. This middle aged feminist is sad that the sex is about pleasing the men more than ever.
11
The most interesting thing about this story is how not profound it is. It's as if every single generation learns the same set of lessons, causing the previous ones to roll their eyes. Jessica, prepare to roll your eyes at the same story in about 10 years.
The behaviors you've outlined are so pervasive, it may be time to study the evolutionary pressures that instilled them into us, rather than the cultural forces that still struggle to come to terms with them.
11
1) Sex education - correct information; age appropriate details, from age 2 to age 12
2) Empathy education - walk a mile in the other person's shoes, put yourself in his/her place, etc. with parents demonstrating empathy by being empathetic at home as well as in general society.
3) Respectful discipline - don't teach your kids to "do what I say because I'm the boss"--that teaches both mindless obedience and mindless domination.
A lot more of the above would go a long way toward empowering people to communicate what they mean and what they feel.
5
Once everybody grows up in the same way, with the same kinds of parents, siblings, cousins, pets, bicycles, goes to the same schools, plays ( competitively ) in the same way ( no delineation for gender, size or strength ) in uni-sports activities, has the same models for friends, acquaintances, pass into adulthood with identical aspirations, careers, successes ( failure not an option because that wouldn't be nice ), and repeating the life cycle to the perfection the aforementioned suggests, we won't have to endure the stultifying vacuousness and boredom of essays like this one. Planet Stepford will makes everyday nice and sunny for all of us.
16
No means no. That is true even for a belated no.
But yes means yes. Past age of consent and going that far, she must own her decision, or say no.
28
What is "a belated no?" Does a man need to look into the future to anticipate it?
14
There is gonna be a long winter for those still having hormones.
28
"Ummm, well, yes, I suppose"
"Okay, then. Here's form 119-x3. Please sign and date while I hop in the shower. The pink copy's yours."
23
I’m a progressive, open minded, left leaning feminist who was brought up to respect women. That being said, without fail, The NY Times publishes a weekly article confusing th heck out of men. Articles like this are irresponsible. As a man, if still single, it would make me employ the rule of never being alone in a room when having sex; as per Jessica Bennett, an emotional and verbal version of consent may not actually be consent; which is another way of saying there are no limits or rules to when a man might be prosecuted for misappropriated aecual advances, behavior or worse. I think the Larry David rule might never the only answer; get a signed consensual form in bed before sex.
29
Brilliant. Thank you.
4
I heard this phrase last year— “intimacy inequality” — and it named a chasm I had long experienced in M/F relationships. I hope the generations behind me fight for it.
4
If "yes" means "no", then every man, except a lifetime celibate, is a rapist. That even applies to marital relations, because we have learned that marriage does not automatically imply consent.
That's a reducto ad absurdum. In English, nonsense.
22
Seriously, guys, this isn't difficult. Don't have sex with anyone who isn't as into it as you are.
12
there, someone has said it!
2
Not difficult at all, if you are a mind reader.
34
Girls and women have used their 'sex appeal' to get what they want/further their aims forever. This only works because men and women are different (how many male prostitutes make a full time income off women clients?).
If you don't want to have sex and you don't speak up at the time, why is this somebody else's responsiblity?
If you find yourself having a lot of sex that makes you feel unhappy perhaps you should not be engaging in sex at all.
40
The fact that you have sex with someone who, at the time, you wish you didn’t is a personal, not cultural problem. It comes from not respecting the profound meaning of the sexual act. This disrespect is evident throughout the article.
27
And thus continues the march towards reclassifying 50% of the world's population as "victims." Surely, this is not what feminism was intended to accomplish.... All least, this liberated woman of a certain age hopes so!
36
So the character, after having sex she later regrets, states "This is the worst life decision I have ever made."
Gosh, if only that were the worst mistake any of us make.
30
Sometimes sex is just sex and self-recrimination serves no useful purpose.
15
It may surprise the gender editor that men also can have second thoughts about the act, find themselves going through with it and then feel bad and/ or stupid. I think many things in life are like that, for all people, one's choice of college major, career, you name it, which we may enter into with mixed feelings. With maturity you realize that your life will not unfold like an academy award winning movie and either change your expectations or learn to make the best of what ends up on your plate. But don't start blaming society or your partners for your own lack of discretion and bad choices or that life does not live up to your fantasies.
48
So the character, after having sex she later regrets, states "This is the worst life decision I have ever made."
Gosh, most of us should be so lucky.
17
If I were the father of a young woman and learned that she had sex "just to get it over with," it would break my heart.
8
Saving yourself for your eventual husband is the best advice I can give to any girl or woman. Do you really want some stranger to know all about your body's secrets? Do you tell a new acquaintance all about your financial status? Do you give that new boyfriend your pass code or your social security number? Are not your genitals supposed to be your private property, not to be shared with a virtual stranger?
9
Walk of shame....and yes even our grandmother's did it....but as a woman we gotta own it...so not the dudes fault
15
In addition to this article, I read the referenced New Yorker story. There are serious issues afoot and both columns are incredibly clever and very well written. However, the unfortunate thrust of the story is that women have no idea about what they want, cannot really be relied upon for consent and in these matters might very well be regarded as complete idiots. I do not think any of this info is in service of the #metoo movement currently embroiling the current sexual assault zeitgeist.
24
This is heading in the direction of monogamy in a committed relationship, period.
What used to seem like sexual freedom in the 90s and early 00s (and presumably before) is starting to look like a legal and emotional minefield. Guys will need a headcam to record any encounters to make sure no accusations of rape occur, and there will need to be pauses to apply advanced linguistic interpretation techniques to the context of "yes" and "no" at various stages in the encounter.
16
To this early Boomer, it's clear that beatniks and hippies and yippies and yuppies and lezzies and sissies have all lived through a sexual adolescence that may not have fully resolved by the time we reach adulthood.
Even clearer is that America has a very strange and belabored relationship with sex. Wouldn't you think by now we'd have figured out some workable rules?
2
We had some. We repealed them and said "If it feels good do it!" That old dirty word "morality."
3
This gets too complicated. Perhaps what’s needed is a new social protocol for sex. What that would be exactly is something to be vetted as part of becoming a fully responsible adult. I do know that it helps a lot to go into life with a clear head about such potentially fraught issues.
I’ve seen articles about yes means yes and no means no. Now we have an article saying sometimes no means yes, but only sometimes. No wonder some people find recent feminist hashtag movements to be completely laughable.
15
If you are not mature enough for sex, abstain. What you are doing involves other people and requires the maturity to take responsibility. Claiming a gray zone or out of body experience is childish and irresponsible.
31
'...10 percent of women said they actually give consent via body language". haha- that's the thing about body language- you don't realize you're doing it!
6
A simple way to avoid almost all of these misunderstandings: get to know someone quite well -- as a romantic partner -- before having sex. Then, if you're not ready or willing in the moment, you know the person well enough to speak up -- and they know you well enough to ask if something is amiss. It clears up confusion for both parties. I can't understand this notion that you should have sex with someone on the first, or even the third, date. Men will not summarily dump you if you don't have sex with them right away. That's the voice of experience speaking. And if they will, then it's likely they weren't that crazy about you to begin with. My wish for these women would be that they find someone who values their company enough to wait until they're ready.
25
What's the point of the article? - that our feelings are sometimes complex?
Or that now men not only have to navigate those current moronic inventions of ridiculously classified human interactions - no means no, yes means yes - but start to inquire women about their philosophical views, about present time, about future, about women's takes on culture and upbringing, get into a sincere discussion about all these important topics?
As it it wasn't bad enough to suggest that normal humans must proceed with their sexual advances by continuously asking confirmations of their actions - probably with enlisting directions of all their movements and the names of different body parts.
5
“Women have been taught, by every cultural force imaginable, that we must be ‘nice’ and ‘quiet’ and ‘polite.’"
Fell on deaf ears in almost all cases...
7
In the story in the New Yorker, it was the young woman who initiated sex and then afterward was cold and insensitive toward the man, who was the vulnerable one. In the story, the young woman was appallingly self-centered. Both she and the man she slept with stumbled into the encounter. Neither was being responsible. The uncomfortable reality that clouds consent was there for the man as well as the woman. Sad and disturbing all around.
13
You nailed it. Congratulations. We've been wrestling with this critical bit for 50 years.
The precursor to this situation, that all women learn by experience, is that 'No' doesn't mean 'No', just as so many smarmy males have claimed.
It means 'It's too late'.
Kay and Tom
1
"This is the worst life decision I have ever made!" If so, it was your decision.
14
As a man, I once had moment with a woman I knew well, and was attracted to, where told she was feeling "permissive." I think she meant to open the door to intimacy, but honestly that disgusted me, and I changed the subject. I have not though about that moment until reading these lines:
I was home from college, old enough for him to notice, and he did, and then it was happening ..." "... I let it."
What is this passive, allow-the-man-to-do-his-thing approach to sex? I find it doubly upsetting: 1. the woman has such little acknowledgement of her own desires and wants, and 2. she sees her role as the one who grants permission for the man to act out his desires on her?
Honestly any man that enjoys sex with a woman like that really is just using her, and any woman (in a free society) who sees sex that way is just using it to wield power. Yuck! I'm not interested in someone granting me permission to use her body for my pleasure while she waits for it to end. I'd rather buy an inflatable doll. If the desire is truly mutual, then let the party start!
18
Sex is about breeding. And breeding is about genetics. If people want to understand whats going on thats what we need to concentrate on. Talk to people with addiction problems as those are almost always genetic in nature.
1
The old 80-20 rule. 20% of the people have 80% of the sex. So why should I have any sympathy for the genetic lottery winners who all of a sudden, but a bit too late realize they can do even better?
4
The comments are almost as fascinating as the piece. Perhaps one has to experience "no return" sex to appreciate Ms. Bennett's perspective. Instead of deriding her point of view, can we come up with an answer to her question?
6
Sure...don't have sex if your not mature enough to know you can handle your own decisions. Otherwise, leave it up to the teenagers, they always know everything
2
I am 73. My life experice has been to let the woman make the first move, Like with my wife did. It's easier that way. Many years ago, I met a woman at a jazz club, at the bar. We started talking and she asked me if I would go shopping with her tomorrow for a new mattress. I did and after we made love, she asked me 'Was I obvious?" I said "No, not at all" We were together for two years. Geez, I miss my younger days!
4
FURNITURE SHOPPING! The ultimate pickup technique.
I heard about that one on Access Hollywood I think!
Thank you for sharing that sweet story!
1
These past couple of years women present themselves as frightened shadows blaming men of all their disillusions in live, ranging from hitting the professional glass ceiling to being sexually touched while laying naked in bed with a guy. My respect for women as human beings equally strong and intelligent as a man has reached a new low.
13
I'm a woman and I agree. Although I should add these narratives are obsessed about on social media I don't see them as prevalent with the women I come in contact with day in and out who I think are just living their lives. I don't think many of them are in agreement with this mentality.
10
Maybe someone can start a training group for women.
Do role playing with men so they get practice how to say no.
And also practice saying no after they said yes but changed their mind.
Practice helps.
3
Young women should get a job in sales, on commission, so they will better understand these things.
5
RE: In other words: saying yes when we really mean no.
What you meant to write was saying yes when we wish we had said no.
Yes means yes. And trying to change the meaning of language after the fact is why women falsely accuse men of rape and other imagined infractions. It's why men and women like men and men leaders better.
12
I read the short story and liked it a lot, but found it more nuanced and interesting than the essay or the comments.
The young woman in the article fantasized herself as being desirable to an older man--this gave her power. The power struggle was clearly conveyed in the dance of text messages, and the story's sad-but-true ending--"pity sex" for her, and incompetent, but perhaps satisfactory sex for him.
The power, sex, age/experience convergences are sensitively explored in the story.
Read it.
10
What if meant aren't the issue?
Putting aside the raft of sociopaths now getting their just due, what if in fact the current crisis (even perhaps including those cases) was brought about by the loosening of sexual mores put forward by the progressive movement, and this is quite simply the logical conclusion/result of that?
4
DEBORAH TANNEN, Renowned sociolinguist who focuses on gender differences in speech, in her magnum opus, You Just Don't Understand, writes that most women typically communicate with the purpose of answering the question, Do you like me yet? While most men typically communicate with the question of answering the question, Do you like me yet? Tannen describes these "metamessages" as the social context in which women and men communicate. So when a man asks a woman if she consents to sexual relations, he's also asking, Have I won yet? While the woman's intent in answering the question of consent to sexual relations frames the response with the meta-message, Do you like me yet? Until women and men understand the metamessages, they will continue to go around in circles, most often uncertain of what the partner's metamessage is. Or unaware that there even is any metamessage. The first step is for both parties to acknowledge the metamessages and work from there. I a woman consents to be "liked," and a man initiates sex to "win" there is room between the differences in their positions for much misunderstanding. Taking a shortcut around these complexities may be all that is required legally. But sociolinguistically, there's a lot more complexity being communicated. How to explore that? READ TANNEN'S BOOK, YOU JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND! For starters.
3
With the amount of attention given to sexual harassment in the past few weeks- anyone who hasn't thought about changing their behavior at the office or informing others of their inappropriate comments or actions .. then there's really no more which can be done. How many more protests rallies and public awareness campaigns do we need to make this point?
It's ironic to think if a major dog food company was selling toxic pet food which was killing the family dog- EVERYONE overnight would KNOW not to buy that brand of dog food.. The public outrage, contempt and vengeance would be immediate and swift.
In my humble opinion, sexual harassment is by far a greater problem -- My point is if we can do it for dogs- certainly we can do it for people.
1
The real issue here is not one of consent, but that lots of women are having lots of sex that they do not enjoy and are unwilling to speak up about it in the moment. Rape culture is all on the men, but we women need to take responsibility for these "begrudgingly consensual" encounters.
24
Ms Bennett and her female friends, who are obviously afraid to take responsibility for their actions -- yes, inaction is an action, too -- should be ashamed of themselves.
We all have choice in all situations. The problem we all face is taking responsibility for our actions!
As Bugs Bunny said in the Disney cartoon, "That's all folks!"
12
The world is complicated. Sex is often not a rational act. That doesn't mean you've been raped. Women suffer a lot of sexual confusion. So do men. That doesn't make men bad and women good, or women victims and men, victimizers.
16
Men aren't mind readers. At some point women are going to have to take responsibility for their consent. Many do. Clouding the issue with gray zones is only going to create paranoia.
"She said yes, and then she said no really I totally mean it, and then she said I would tell you if I weren't into it I promise, and then she said I'm still into it keep going, but I suspected she was doing it more for me than for herself so I pulled the plug just to be on the safe side. Emphatic consent isn't enthusiastic consent, and her enthusiasm didn't look like more than an 8 out of 10. Momma didn't raise no 20% rapist."
12
"In other words: saying yes when we really mean no."
I'm sorry, but this is inane. Say no, if you really don't want something, anything.
14
I've found the most enjoyable sex occurs when I've asked the woman if she is trying to seduce me; and if she says yes and I smile, we can enjoy the rest of our time together without the 'dance'. If she says no, I smile, we can enjoy the rest of our time together without that 'dance' either.
4
I am still waiting for a male or female to talk about sexual buyers' remorse for a sexual encounter when the sex itself was dazzling.
8
I agree that it's a step backward to treat women as totally fragile. However, I think something else is also at work. I think that many women are still brought up to believe that unwanted advances somehow diminish their own honor, prestige or purity. They feel humiliated when in theory they could just politely but firmly refuse an unwanted invitation. What if all women were taught that an unwanted advance was the man's problem (or better yet nobody's problem)? And there is another angle too: if some advances are unacceptable only because the man is from the "wrong" class or the "wrong" culture or the "wrong" race or is physically "unattractive," then do we really want to speak of the woman as a victim of anything but her own shallowness? (Another op-ed brought up the point that many of the accused men were not good-looking, and I could not tell if the writer saw the implications of her own words.)
12
I was lucky, and decided very early on in my sexual life to always ask clearly if the woman I was with wanted to have sex, and to always realize that "No" meant no. Interestingly enough, at least one young woman was offended by the direct question, turned me down, and told me she would have if I'd only been "more romantic" in how I went about my approach.
6
Requiring men to always ask women to consent maintains the same power dynamic that got us here the first place. A healthier relationship would surely involve the person who wants to initiate asking rather than one gender always occupying the active role. Hopefully lead to less confusion and women going through something they do not want to!
7
I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of feminist voices suddenly cried out...
4
I find it so interesting to see the vernacular that has sprang up to try to explain what basically is buyers remorse when it comes to sexual encounters. These explanations come overwhelmingly from women and rarely is there an admission of having made a mistake in leading a guy towards having sex. This, I fear, helps conflate one issue (buyers remorse to which the woman contributed and should own up to) with another, more serious one (sexual abuse based on power imbalance and manipulation).
4
One of the best commentaries I've seen on this subject is in Andrew Sullivan's New York Magazine column this week--about halfway down--about the role of testosterone in male sexuality. He has a unique perspective both as a gay man and as someone who has used the hormone medically. He even quotes Shakespeare. Highly recommended:
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/12/andrew-sullivan-the-assault...
3
A thoughtful analysis. But I don't think this can be dealt with by law. Better to work on women being more assertive and men, well, when in doubt, stay out. You can always take a relationship forward, but you can never undo something that you've done.
4
In many (not all) of the high profile accusations of sexual assault I notice language that is so vague I am not convinced that sexual assault took place. It often sounds like at some time the woman stopped feeling comfortable but continued to go along with it. That at some point they felt emotionally overwhelmed and just went along with it. Rape is physical force or sex under the threat of physical harm. There is no doubt that what Cosby and Weinstein are accused of is sexual assault. But in many other cases I see language used that describes feeling uncomfortable and overwhelmed but no actual physical assertiveness to get away. I am sure many will argue that it can be rape without that aspect, but to me, unless the woman doesn't assert herself due to implicit or explicit threats I think rape or sexual assault isn't the right word for it.
7
This is why, finding myself unexpectedly single in my 50's, initially delighted to find that that some desirable women of every age were happy to go out with me, I soon decided to stop dating American women altogether.
10
Yeah, this totally happens with hetero men too. Really not a feminist deal but an indictment of hookup culture wherein we think we are supposed to do it, it is apparently there right now, but we know the situation is way too early. More than once I have been with someone I knew socially, things got physical and I realized I wasn't completely sure what her name was. Not easy to walk out then, but I did it.
6
The thing about sex (and life) is that much of the time you don't know where you're going until you get there, only later, sometimes much later, to decide whether it's where you wanted to be. We don't know our own minds.
I have to wonder where explicit verbal agreement can take us, especially when, as this article suggests, even that is not enough. A cool, rational, mutual choice not made in the heat of the moment starts to sound like a business agreement, although even those are made under pressure from others.
I suppose the positive model is to know what outcomes you seek (pleasure, exploration, social status, emotional high, self-discovery, spiritual connection, family...) and to share enough with a prospective sexual partner to judge whether having sex would move you toward or away from what you seek. Generally that's not a conversation you have with a rapist, an exploiter, or when you're already naked and/or drunk or even "in the mood."
4
The broad topic of inappropriate sexual behavior, consent and all its ramifications is good to air but some specific cases seem (to me) more than a little disproportionate. I'm not referring to terrible, arguably criminal exercises of power that we've seen reported in Hollywood and elsewhere. But this article about Yes meaning No is about ordinary life.
What about a person who has an affair that destroys a marriage. Isn't that much, much worse than an incident of grey-consent sex? The instigators of such affairs do not have their lives ruined by others, though; nor by Internet mobs. We recognize that the participants are responsible. Law and social conventions recognize that such things happen. Doesn't it occur inside marriage that one partner may not really be up for sex that night, but participates anyway? Is that a terrible thing, or a quite OK accommodation?
If a person oversteps by touching another, in a non-power-play setting, isn't that just part of communication? We communicate, we humans, especially with people we don't know well, via very low-bandwidth channels. A lot of communication ASSUMES that both parties have similar mental models, contexts that allow skinny amounts of communication to imply larger amounts of implication. This is not a sin, it's a fact about communication, whether by explicit language or silent gestures.
So in this article, what is described is a communication situation in which much is unsaid. Who's responsible for that?
1
So now "yes" means "no" too? And somehow it's still all men's fault?
Are we to expect that any woman can decide - whether it's the morning after or a decade later - that sexual encounters where there was actual affirmative consent were, in fact, non-consensual? Where does it end?
12
As a man I feel "unsafe" reading these words: "But what about a woman who doesn’t feel that she can speak up because of cultural expectations? Should that woman be considered unable to consent, too?" The author suggests that the standard for consenting for sex should be different than any other voluntary adult activity.
9
"But what about a woman who doesn’t feel that she can speak up because of cultural expectations? Should that woman be considered unable to consent, too?"
As a female, and one who like many others has been through these sort of situations, at some point i have to say that this is becoming ridiculous. It's asking a bit much of a guy to somehow morph into Mystic Meg and be able divine what we want, even though we might say otherwise. At some point we have to be responsible for our own agency, no?
23
This revelation of unspoken reality for most women is a long time coming. Apart from the sad fact that most of us have chosen to 'go along' because it felt easier, more expedient or kind...especially in the pre-HIV days of sexual liberation.
One of the clear consequences of this rueful submission by women has been to reinforce the male idea that women are simply not that adamant about sex, that they resist as a enticement 'game' or that once a guy is turned on, it is her duty to perform.
Maybe this whole muddle needs to be changed in high school, where boys should no longer have the power to initiate dates. Female initiative may need to be fostered better ! Then we will all be woke.
2
Like some of the other writers, I am not entirely sure of the point the author wants to make, although it is important she exercise the right to write what she wants. I remember the sexual revolution and sudden appearance of more opportunities for everyone, women and men alike.
Although I am glad that we speak more openly of sexuality and attendant issues, I fear that, in the case of women, we have come to equate fully engaged women with fully engaged sexuality without addressing how to do it in a healthy way. In many ways, we are a prudish society and do not embrace open discussions of the nuances of expressing one's sexuality.
Men historically have had more freedom to explore their sexuality without having to be accountable. Many women have controlled their sexuality because it has been important to time births with marriage, for many economic reasons.
I agree that the writer is exploring. I am not sure that we have ready solutions but we do need to at least recognize that courtship and romance have changed dramatically over the last generation. While we seek new conventions and rituals, we must support all those that seek to develop healthy consensual adult relationships whatever forms they may take. And not take images of women in the media very seriously.
5
I’m a 43-year-old woman who wasn’t sure I had a place in the #metoo movement. Many of my regrets come from the years during which I was an active alcoholic. Not always drunk, but using alcohol as a social and romantic lubricant. Thank you for naming this gray zone in which so many of us have undoubtedly found ourselves. For years, decades, I’ve struggled with how to frame, what to call those experiences. This brings me closer to understanding there is a shared sadness and grief. This was - is - an important perspective to delve into. Thank you, Jessica.
8
I have experienced this same thing many times but I don't think it is a grey area between consent and rape. It is consent. Holding your partner responsible for the fact you got cold feet somewhere down the line but pretended everything was okay isn't something you should guilt them over.
21
Until a woman is fully mature, sex should not be something to get entangled in.
She should have the confidence of experience in all of life's many choices including how to make friendships of men and women which are based on
reality regarding her real feelings and interests.
In my young days, birth control was not as reliable as today and which
was a warning sign to protect oneself and not only physically but emotionally.
It was also a time of testing a male friend regarding his respect and regard for your rules of the game and know where he stood when he dropped you as a result.
Since marriage was the solution rather than bed hopping and one had patience the doubts of a yes or no and regret were not the reasons for the relationship.
I know it is an old fashioned concept but it worked for many of us who knew when someone we respected saw what we were waiting for and it was ditto
for him. And that kind of permanent sex was the best of all.
21
Thanks to the author for writing about this "greyness". We need to feel safe enough to be clear about what we don't want.
REALLY necessary that we, as a society, have frank conversations about gender roles and cultural vs. personal expectations
Let's keep talking, and listening, to each other.
6
Boy am I glad I grew up in the 60's and lived the free sex era of the 70's. Now it's really complicated to make sure women (and men) are protected from an unwanted experience and negative consequences.
Perhaps the answer is an electronic device that works like a body camera that measures the classic signs of sexual arousal of the user and periodically requests an electronic "consent" rendered by a fingerprint (by both parties) that is then time stamped into an electronic record much like the black boxes on commercial airliners. Then the data could be downloaded into an app that tracks the pattern of consent along with stages of sexual activities, if nothing else to help people understand where they go "off track" and detach from the chain of consent. The ultimate goal with NOT be to introduce the PC police into intimate relationships but rather to act as a bio feedback tool to help "active consent" and resolve into what is often an unconscious series of non decisions and passive acquiescence.
5
Sounds like something Apple might jump on with gusto! They could call it the "iMight". Or, is it possible you are not serious?
3
Nice try, but arousal does not equate to consent.
2
Since I don't see any mention of this: What if we train our young people to consider the idea of what is RIGHT? That sounds like a big leap but reality shows that cultures that move with the idea that sex is for married people tend to have far less us of the word "HELP".
9
I’m not sure what this piece is doing in a newspaper since it reads as something that belongs in a women’s magazine. What’s the take-away? Is there a public policy issue involved? Is there ANY issue involved other than the issue of the complexity of human emotions and how they play out in sexual encounters? What’s the POINT?
24
The point is to further the 4th-wave feminist idea that women are infants who can't say no and need protected at all costs.
13
The point is to offer a nuanced an often unarticulated view of problems with which much of our society is now grappling. In case you hadn’t noticed, there’s this whole #metoo moment happening, and it’s reopening questions about consent. Additionally, we’re losing our country to a pack of corrupt fascists who want us to be living the Handmaid’s Tale (oh, you didn’t read it?), and some of us care, a LOT, about the issue of sexual freedom. Finally, there was this other thing called the Women’s March that happened a few months ago. Feminism IS an issue of public concern. What 1950s rock are you living under? BTW, plenty of publications with a primarily female readership address political and civic issues. “Women’s magazine” doesn’t mean inane ways to lure a man ala Cosmo.
5
First, no men are not being trained to be predators etc as the authors friend notes. Nor are women culturally deprived of agency. I have not been dating for a bit but will be again soon. I know to avoid conservatives as there is no commonality. However, I also know to avoid modern or Third Wave feminists. These are people who are so steeped in doctrine that their view is as distorted as conservatives. People have agency. Women and men. I was thinking of moving overseas to get away from the mess of US culture and the opposing ideological camps. I may at least restrict my dating to overseas trips and begin to understand why I am seeing friends who have lived overseas coming back with smart, vibrant and strong partners. Not adversaries.
20
Jessica,
I am a 74 year old male. I've read a lot of stuff over the years...The "Yes" piece was the best ever. I knew when this whole thing exploded that is was the most complex issue ever uncovered. I tried to explain to my wife that there are underlying issues here. Really big, complex ones. But, though I sensed and knew it, I did not have the ability to explicate. Not quite smart enough. Thanks for your insightful intelligence.
14
Dear Roy Vogel: I feel he same way. Like I felt this to be true but didn't have the words for it.
Thank you.
3
This is going to sound odd, but as a man I've definitely had sex when I didn't want to, to satisfy my partner, had sex when I regretted it, almost instantaneously, but felt like I couldn't back out, etc. I've have been gently teased by more than one partner (including the one referred to above) for trying to practice 'affirmative consent.' So, these cultural stereotypes don't just impact women--the assumption that men must always want sex can lead men to be misperceived and it can also produce pressure on men to perform their masculinity by having sex when they don't particularly want to, in addition to the harmful effects on women. This is in no way to deny that women are the victims of most sexual violence but I do think that recognizing that this may be even an experience men face can open onto a general discussion of how gender expectations produce quasi-involuntary behaviors routinely and how renegotiating those can be emancipatory for both women (who are typically the main victims) and men.
46
Thank you for your thoughtful post.
5
I think we can all learn something from Jessica Bennett's piece. We have all been in a situations where we have agreed to something that we wish we hadn't. It's usually driven by a desire to avoid the other's disappointment, anger or rejection. Afterward it's not unusual tp have misgivings.
When it's a small matter, we can usually put it us behind us and chalk it up as a learning experience.
But if it's sex or anything else that has a big load of emotional baggage, putting it behind us is not so easy.
The best defense is to project ahead and think through possible strategies to cope with situations that might be uncomfortable. For women being pressured for unwanted sex is surely is a situation that is shamefully all to common. Projecting ahead with the aim of avoiding and coping with unwanted advances needs to be in every woman's social tool kit.
That doesn't mean I excuse men's bad behavior. But realistically changing one's own behavior is a much more achievable goal than changing that of others.
8
Kudos to Ms. Bennett, for encapsulating such a common, but hard to articulate, experience. For me, this article rings true to my personal experience dating outside of serious committed relationships. As a psychotherapist, I try to help my clients, both victims and perpetrators (knowing or unknowing), heal and learn skills for healthier relationships in the future. But first, let us be clear, we need to protect our children. The solution is complex and will take years to implement, but there is a place to start, now. Mandatory sex education in all high schools and colleges. If possible, by psychologists or therapists with specialities in sexuality, to deal with the nuances and complexities touched upon in this essay. The kids whose parents will not allow them to attend sex ed classes, will learn from their peers. This is totally doable. Educators, please heed the call.
4
Good grief. So no one should be responsible for their decisions and every decision should have a do-over?
20
As a teenager in Europe I quickly discovered that being a virgin put a target on your back. When I was between 16 and 17 I decided to remove that trophy from my life. I had met a nice young dentist, told him about my dilemma and explained to him that he would have to deflower me to transport me from girl to womanhood, no strings attached. It worked, I no longer felt like prey, I was able to deal with men and boys without fear and from a position of power. Many years later I had a boss who never touched me but suggested a sexual relationship, when I (gently) laughed and rejected him, he created a hostile environment that sent me in to medical care.I put together a Dossier about my experience and 12 young girls I had hired and that quit or were fired because he had violated them but our British parent company refused to fire him in 1982. Instead they gave me a year of paid leave which rendered his subsidiary unprofitable. There is more than one way to skin cat.
3
This piece is insulting. Women are not this helpless.
76
I wish I could "like" this more than once.
10
If there is this much confusion perhaps we need to return to the days of parietals, single sex dorms, no sex before marriage. When I was very young, a girl risked her reputation by saying "yes"; " no" was the obedient, good girl response. Those in authority (parents, school, church) expected unmarried women to say "no". Women eventually ( and with the pill) sought both the pleasures and responsibilities of acting on sexual desire. Back then, the world of sex/romance was plenty confusing, but it was good to feel like a grown-up who could make a choice (even a bad one), rather than a young woman charged with protecting her "virtue" at all times. How times have changed.
47
No. The point of sexual freedom for me was to be able to play by my own rules & accept & learn from the consequences. I never wanted someone else's rules imposed on me & still don't. Fine if someone wants to choose that way, but I will choose my own. Everyone should have that freedom, and, yes it does come with responsibility. My experiences are how I gained maturity, mastery, insights about myself & those I had relationships with.
2
If "Yes" means "No" then there's no more hope for people being able to create healthy relationships. The risks are far too high. We might as well all give up until women learn to say "Yes" only when they mean "Yes."
31
In general, our society does not protect its young people as they leave high school, not girls, not boys, and not just about sex. One day there is the time structure of school, and the next, no structure at all. This problem is compounded by the abdication of parents when it comes to teaching life's lessons to their children as they are growing up. Relevant to this article, why aren't parents teaching their young women what male sexuality is, or at least, about the fantasies that lead men to misjudge what is meant by consent? Why aren't they telling their vulnerable young women how to avoid situations that they will regret forever? Why are the adults at school and home making wishful assumptions and basing the future of our young people on hope instead of common sense?
10
we do tell our daughters - they think we are wrong, that their young male friends are different, that now is a different time than when their parents were young. in short, they don't listen and put themselves in risky situations and are ultimately disappointed by their friends bad behavior.
9
For teenagers to listen parents, they have to know from long experience that their parents want the best for them. Many teens are convinced long before reaching puberty that they are not first on the parents' priority list.
1
I understand the focus on the article is not on the law. I see what the author is writing about her own experience and perhaps an experience common among women. Nevertheless, consent in sex has tremendous legal implications. When a person says there was no consent, there are long prison sentences and life-time sex offender registration for the other person. So, the author's "sometimes yes means no" and "gray zone sex" is not really helpful in developing social standards that can be enforced by the legal system.
40
I, for one, mean “no” when I say “no” and “yes” when I say “yes”. I have not known any girl or woman who would say “no” when she meant “yes”, hoping some guy would pursue her. The author doesn’t seem very bright, and she is doing other women a disservice by claiming women are across the board socialized not to say what they mean.
9
I can see no way that men, even good men, can consistently parse this.
"But what about a woman who doesn’t feel that she can speak up because of cultural expectations? Should that woman be considered unable to consent, too?"
Under Title Nine?
44
This article as a tweet: "He wanted it, I thought I might want it (or too awkward to argue the point)..... had the experience had been great, it would have been a definite retroactive Yes. But, no, it wasn't. Why did I do that?"
25
Is sex really this complex, having to rely on rational doubts all the way, whether such a natural act shouldn't be 'a given' if there is a process of maturation leading to intimacy...where sexual intercourse is but the corollary of emotional feelings, not requiring the uttering of verbal consent? One of mutual acceptance of opening up to the pleasure of sharing ourselves, in mind and body, with no regrets? That we are not really into it (for fear of opening up to being hurt, willfully exposed to danger, as we become lukewarm about consenting, or not, to what appears to be just a mechanical process to be done with, get it out of our minds, and hope for redemption in all the wrong places), is a shame and a waste of our 'talents' to find joy in the most human communion of souls, our sexual needs satisfied by becoming one with nature, a beauty to be upheld, a truth to be told, feelings where words become superfluous, or at most an afterthought.
3
There are several consequences of having to be hard-nosed with men. One of them is learning how to cut off every type of contact with strangers. I spent most of my young years wearing cropped or shaven hair, multiple piercings, combat boots, and oversized clothes -- I thought it was fashion, but came to realize that it was self-defense. I carried a huge book in a backpack with me wherever I went, so that I always had something to focus on and never had to make eye contact with anyone. I learned to scowl at men who admonished me to "smile, sweetheart!" And the "you'd be so pretty if you'd only dress better/smile more" comments were incessantly annoying.
I learned as a girl that some males will take any pleasant behavior as a license to take advantage of you. You cannot tell at the outset which ones will do this, and which ones will not, so you develop a hard shell that protects you from everyone! Men have called me rude and arrogant more times than I can count, and I've lost out on more opportunities for employment and social advancement, as well. I'm a straight woman who refused to play the sex game with men, and I've paid the social price for it.
Now that I'm in my fifties, I'm glad to see more women refusing to accept the way things are, and I certainly hope that as more women put their collective foot down, we won't have to pay the price of social ostracism for being assertive and refusing to go along with the status quo.
37
I completely disagree with this author's analysis. I never said yes when I meant no. And I certainly never let society's view of what women should or shouldn't do in these circumstances influence my decision. By saying that women say yes when they mean no is just bogus. There is no such thing as a point of no return! I've had to fight but I always won when deciding to get out. I was a teenager in the 60's and free love was very popular but I always took control of my own actions and the responsibility for them. In fact, I still do. Blaming men is ridiculous. It still takes two to tango. Where does she get the idea that women and girls are socially trained to be passive? I never got that memo.
75
"But what about a woman who doesn’t feel that she can speak up because of cultural expectations? Should that woman be considered unable to consent, too?"
2017 has to be one of the strangest times in American culture that we go so far in one direction, we end up looping back around the other way. These question have been asked centuries if not millennia ago. The answer back then was as resounding "No," and that was why Daddy got to decide which man in the village got to have his daughters.
I thought, since then, our society has come to believe that women are capable of shouldering the responsibility of mastering their own bodies. More pertinently, we presume now women are capable of deciding and articulating what they want to do with their own bodies. But apparently, a couple of years short of a century after women got the right to vote, we're back to the idea that women can't *really* figure out what they want and articulate it clearly.
We expect women to be fully capable of becoming 4-star generals, CEOs, surgeons, Senators, and - perhaps one day soon - the President. Our society now believes that women are as capable of clear, high-stakes decisions as men, but that's hard to reconcile with author's idea of "yes really means no" because women can't figure out if they really want sex or not.
48
The absurdity of this article is overwhelming. According to the author, a woman can say “yes”, clearly affirming that the sexual encounter is mutual, while meaning “no”, and both the other individual in the encounter and society as a whole must do, well, what exactly? Are we to treat such women in these situations as inarticulate children? I believe when confronted with that possibility most women, and possibly the author herself, would call that opinion sexist and misogynistic.
Honestly, this article reads as if it were written by an individual who has not had a, shall we say, mutually intimate encounter, in quite a while.
60
Given how very much is at stake, the days of "maybe 'no' sometimes means 'yes' because it just makes the sexual game more fun" need to be over. It's ridiculous that we're even debating it. If two or more completely consenting people want to pretend at hard-to-get, they can do so in safe role play where there are preset boundaries. Sex is, in the end, a transaction, and just as with any other transaction, both parties should feel confident that changing their mind (at any time) will bring about a desired result.
5
But the woman in the equation need not consider anyone but herself and if she has regrets,a now or later, society has to if not legally then socially treat the man as a rapist. Women have struggled ling and hard to have the right to control their own lives and shouldn't have to consider the consequences for a man accused of rape. For men, it's just a payback for centuries of misogyny.
3
I came up in the Sixties and overall found that sex usually happened in relationships and much less often casually. The relationship could be girl friend-boyfriend or a substantial friendship but was rarely drunken hooking up with a relative stranger. Outside of rape, we women have the power of yes or no. I think we have to ask ourselves if we are saying yes because we genuinely like/love this person or are we hoping to make this person like/love us by using sex. Telling the truth helps . How about a simple "no , I'm not ready or I'm not comfortable". And if the man pressures you when you've clearly said no then that is telling you something about that man. I'm making it sound easier than it is but if you are clear in your own mind first then you won't have to struggle each time sex comes up as a possibility.
13
"But what about a woman who doesn’t feel that she can speak up because of cultural expectations? Should that woman be considered unable to consent, too?"
Please don't take away my ability to consent to sex that I want to have.
25
My local pharmacy now sells ouija boards next to the condom display. I think the idea was to help shoppers decide whether they would need condoms, but the boards are now used to check whether consent has been given.
16
All of this goes back to Catherine MacKinnon's theorizing in the 1980s that consent was a lousy basis for determining the legality of a sexual approach or a sexual act because of power differentials between men and women which rendered consent meaningless.
The logical conclusion of this theory is that women cannot ever consent of their own will -- that a third party must review and approve of a woman having a relationship with a man before it is legitimate. We have already seen cases at UCLA and Colorado State where young men have been expelled for consensual sex where their women partners loudly and proudly say the sex was consensual and are angry their voices as women are silenced by busybodies who know better. We are replacing patriarchal prior consent by a woman's father with bureaucratic prior consent.
Another logical conclusion is that no consent is ever necessary from boys or men because they are presumed always to want sex with women and always to be the powerful one in any relationship with a woman regardless of age or mental or physical handicap.
This leads to staggering numbers of boys assaulted by women being excluded from justice and help. Lara Stemple at UCLA has done tremendous research in the field.
11
MacKinnon was 100% correct. That doesn't lessen or remove a woman's right to make choices but but it does put men on notice that their dominance of society doesn't insulate them from legal consequences for their actions. Every step of the way in male-female relationships, male privilege and aggression are present. The act of approaching a woman is in itself presumptive, arrogant, a symbol of privilege and a sexual aggression. It assumes that a woman is okay with a particular man contacting her. Her tolerance level might well be zero.
McKinnon was an early thought leader, but that doesn't mean feminists bought her theories in their entirety. She's never spoken for this sex-positive & man-loving feminist any more than the religious morons in office do. Many consider her views outdated. If you're interested in furthering justice for women, as opposed to dismissing their concerns, using them to grab attention for men, or using outdated feminist thought to ridicule them, read current theorists.
Please provide your reputable statistics to back up the staggering number of men & boys assaulted & number of women who assault. Reputable stats I see estimate 1/6 boys & 1/3 girls are sexually assaulted, and that 99% of the perps are men. I do agree these are staggering & disheartening numbers. We know there is significant underreporting by all victims, and that needs to be taken into account. I hope the #metoo movement makes it possible for EVERYONE who has experienced sexual assault to speak out and for all perps to suffer the consequences. However, "she does it too" is an excuse kindergartners don't even get away with, and doesn't fool anyone about the agenda of those who resort to it. Sexual assault is a human rights issue. Seems to me we should be advocating for all affected, but most commenters who use this argument most certainly do not.
2
Stats on males supposedly being assaulted are simply smokescreen attempts to paint boys as occasional victims too or outright homophobia. To mention them in connection with male harassment and assault of women is offensive. Its just as sexist as those, again males, who complain that breast cancer funding is four times that of prostate caner. The amount of misogyny in this country is astounding.
2
As male reading this, I am cringing. Because I have young children and teenage girls in my family, rapidly growing up; you are telling me about a heart breaking, gut-wrenching dilemmas they are likely to face at some point in their lives. And I shudder, and I know I will plan shut it out, and shut down.
What should they be thinking of, evaluating, practice saying and practice doing to reduce the likelihood of finding themselves in situations you describe. Would you tell us in the next column? If you were to so do, I would copy and paste a link in the text messages to which they are most likely to direct attention, and respond.
Kalidan
1
Tell them to run away from women like this before they end up in court on a spurious rape charge.
4
If you're man, and you're in a situation where the opportunity to have consensual sex with a woman is about to occur, just communicate to her to be honest with you if this is what she wants. Then reinforce that you will you will be ok with a "no" answer and that you will not judge or demean her for choosing to back out. Have confidence in yourself that you are not being rejected. It's really that simple. The whole "no means yes and yes means no" confusion can then be avoided altogether.
13
A few days ago ( a week??) I suggested that a certain amount of all the publicity and angst that is tossed about could also be considered as "Buyers Remorse". That there had existed a certain exchange of services and or commodities. Or likely, some expectation of future benefits. A negotiation had occurred, maybe verbal...As in "NO...well not now, well maybe... well you seem nice..." Or nonverbal negotiating, looking multiple times, physical proximity, an intriguing appearance (wasn't this discussed by a female member of Congress?). Ms. Bennet is suggesting that even in human interactions there is some negotiating.
As stated in my previous post... I am OLD. Really old and have been married and single, worked in Govt, many years in the military, some years in pvt business. I have seen that not all transactions leave both parties believing they got what they bargained for.
If one does not want to negotiate the exchange... or one is an unskilled negotiator, perhaps some serious study of the market place is required in order to not come away with buyer's remorse.
The carnival hucksters used to call out..."Ya buys ya ticket, ya takes ya chances. I think that is true in lots of parts of life.
5
"But what about when “yes” isn’t really an enthusiastic affirmative — or an affirmative at all?"
That's simply not adequate as a legal or moral standard for accusing a partner of sexual assault. If you had doubts but couldn't bring yourself to say no, you should be working with a counselor or friend to figure out how to handle these situations. I think the current debate about sexual misconduct should categorically separate instances of actual sexual harassment and assault from these kinds of "grey-zone" encounters. Articles like this only provide ammunition to those who would prefer to see ambivalence in all accusations of sexual misbehaviour.
14
While the consequences can be far deeper, the governing principles are the same as in any high-pressure sales situation. And the lines are just as hard to draw: when does "caveat emptor" apply (it's a jungle out there; every person is responsible for him/herself) vs recognizing that unfair predation is occurring, where the victim deserves some kind of protection and the perp deserves some kind of restraint/punishment.
These are not (have never been) simple questions - or rather, they are simple questions without simple answers. And, typically, every individual case is unique. Our society doesn't have good guiding principles, partly because we are so multi-cultural: norms that apply in one culture may be totally unacceptable in another. I doubt I will see satisfying resolution to these difficult questions in my lifetime, but the first critical step is to raise them. And that's what we're doing now.
4
This hit home on way too many levels. I recognized my experience in the first few paragraphs. The sexual revolution in the later part of the 60s gave women the ability to actually say "Yes" without necessarily being labeled a slut - at least theoretically - but at the same time it diminished our power to say "No" and have that accepted as what we really wanted to not have happen. It became expedient, to escape from an hours long tussle of push and pull to "get it over with" for far too many women. So now things seem to be going the other way, men may fear that we say "Yes" now just to come back decades later with what we meant was "no"? We have a lot of re-thinking about how we deal with our sexuality in this 21st century.
26
Put men on a lifelong estrogen regimen at puberty and these problems would go away. Make it a mandatory immunization like the HPV vaccine.
1
Twice in my traveling days, after long fun-filled nights and being invited home, I was suddenly confronted with tears, apologies and I can't. Which was fine with me, the fun night being the thing, but the why after the seeming consensus was perplexing. Thank you for increasing my understanding. I am learning a lot lately.
Culturally conditioned consent confusion.
13
We do need to teach girls to take responsibility for their own actions or inaction. That requires a massive cultural shift. We've had thousands of years patriarchal society, where a woman was considered a man's property, to submit to him and in return be protected by him against other men. One small step in the right direction would be to require girls to have self-defense classes, along with the 3 Rs. (Full disclosure--I'm currently teaching self defense to the little girls next door, ages 8 and 10, and to a couple of adult women as well. The kids are great, because they haven't spent so many years being trained to be nice.)
14
Martha - a word of caution, from experience. Few girls/women have the Must win at all costs "gene" that most males posses by default.
In your self-defense teaching, remind those girls and women to never underestimate the effects of adrenaline and testosterone in a physical encounter with a determined male. Im not saying they shouldn't fight back, but they better be prepared to go beyond the civilized line, that males are by nature and nurture always prepared to cross...especially if their tender little pride is at risk. There are no round-ending bells, no whistle blowing referees out in the real world to call a fight over.
1
Back in my day --the swinging 60's and 70's-- we called an uncomfortable sexual encounter a learning experience. No one is born knowing how to navigate the complicated world of sexual relations, so you learning by doing and sometimes there is regret. But we were much less prudish then the generations who have come after us. Now, the slightest hint of impropriety becomes a life-ruing assault, to hear some young ladies tell it. Dredging up unpleasant encounters from 30 years ago-- why? Because the man is/was famous? He showed you his penis? OMG! Seriously, Let it go. Or laugh.
206
Except...
Everyone IS born knowing this stuff, intrinsically; it's built in, the more primitive of two long established behavioral strategies for mating.
What is learned through experience is how these pre-programmed behaviors work, not any so-called 'life lesson'.
Challenging women who are still trying to deal with primitive experiences at the hands of insensitive (or often, far worse than that) males is behavior also built in, a central element of the primitive strategy designed to keep the lid on common dialog about the after effects.
In other words, these chiding challenges, based on transparent bragging (if it's from a male) or lingering damage (if from a female) arise from impulses that have evolved to keep the primitive behaviors in play.
Not too cool, and not nearly as self-aware as the author would like us to believe.
2
trilby - many would and rightfully call those "learning experiences" - rape! You're man-splaining. And Man-demanding that events be perceived and eventually interpreted how you want them.
You ignore the other involved party's perceptions and feelings about how an event went down. You want it all your male-way. Which is exactly at the core of this long over due attention to the issues, and the weak defense that male behaviors and wants must take precedence over others.
Not meaning any harm, doesn't mean harm was not caused and should not be paid for. Male apathy and callousness is critical here...
1
This article seeks to educate us about the dysfunctional cultural context that makes the issues we are at last trying to address so complex.
To address how these cultural dysfunctions play out on college campuses (or even such institutions of the military), I suggest the following:
The school (or other institution) backs up its policy of zero-tolerance for non-consensual sex with a robust training program as part of freshman orientation. The school also distributes a smartphone app, whereby both parties must document their consent by short video, saved on a maximum-security private site that can be accessed ONLY for evidence if/when a rape or sexual assault accusation is being investigated.
The young man thus protects himself from false accusations. If consent to the sex act was NOT thus documented, the accuser is believed and appropriate disciplinary action (another issue) is taken against the violator.
Re alcohol and consent, just as "Drinking and Driving Don't Mix"--"Drinking and [consent to] Sex Don't Mix!" The consent video must be produced BEFORE anybody starts drinking to document fitness for giving and receiving consent as well as the consent itself.
NOT PERFECT or foolproof, but WAY better than the "He Said-She-Said" hell we are in now, and it would foster increased self-awareness and responsibility on both sides.
3
"that can be accessed ONLY for evidence ..." Given the amount of hacking of supposedly secure sites, it is hard to imagine how this could be done.
Moreover, think about pre-nuptial agreements. There is ample evidence that many couples who should have one do not get one and that many individuals enter into one without proper understanding or consent. And those are agreements that do not require instant judgements ... It is hard to imagine that the procedure suggested would actually work in real-life.
1
Is this suggestion for real live human beings? Somehow the use of a phone app is supposed to make it, what? more natural? more spontaneous?
What if someone were to suggest, instead of a cool phone app, a simple paper form that the woman needs to fill out, sign and date, on which she checks off what she assents to and what she doesn't? Ridiculous, right? I think we would then see how complicated this issue is--for both men and women.
2
So what you're saying is, the male is guilty unless proven innocent? That sounds real nice. Now all the crazy ex-girlfriends and ghosted dates have an outlet to ruin the guy's life with no proof. God forbid a straight male accusing a women or gay male of sexually assaulting him. He'd be socially lynched. And thus your strategy has a bias against men.
And no student is going to propose making a consent video immediately before getting laid. Only in a naive idealist's fantasy-land imagination could that play out without annihilating the mood.
The article is essentially saying that consent is impossible to give, because woman are so "complex". That it's a thing to retroactively deny consent, if we shall ever decide to change our mind. It's written as if men don't have bad sexual experiences too. But, as always, we are not men by choice--but apparently always by fault.
1
If you say yes, then you are responsible for the outcome just as much as your partner. Don't over-think something just to get published.
40
"No" means "no". "Yes" means "yes". Don't shift blame by defining a "gray zone".
66
This article & comments resurfaced many icky high school memories. I'm hopeful that I represent the last generation of women who were cajoled into the out-of-body sexual experience, toes curling with disgust.
I understand the HS culture is different now (my teens were appalled at Gene Kelly's character in An American In Paris, an eye-opener for me that the pablum I'd been fed as 'romantic' was 'stalking' from their perspective), though there's still the phrase 'cock tease' bandied about, and I've overheard 10th grade girls taking about whether 'blue balls' truly is painful.
But it's a far cry from growing up listening to Tom Jones' Delilah (or the Beatles' Run For Your Life): fidelity and acquiescence or face severe physical consequences, brought to you by American Top 40.
14
Gene Kelly a stalker...?seriously ? Houston, we have a problem....That iconic movie was textbook romance and how a gentleman should approach a women.
3
I can no longer see Jerry's behavior as indicative of 'romantic' persistence. He physically muscles himself in to dance with Lise, she doesn't want to give him her number and intentionally gives him a wrong number (but is corrected by a 'friend'). She asks for him not to call her, so instead he shows up at her workplace. Once there, he pesters her into having dinner with him...
The romance if having someone disregard a 'no,' (or in this case, multiple 'no's') eludes me. Lise was not being coy, she was notably unnerved by his presence at her work, wanting to get him out of the area.
This year has given us all a lot to say "no" to.
10
If it’s any consolation I said “No” or “This isn’t working” many times when it was really hurting in the ‘80’s and it didn’t even begin to stop the train-wreck! I tried to view it as though I was in a difficult sport. Got to the finish line, parted friendly and never saw them again mostly by mutual agreement. Didn’t really hold a grudge although I believe there is physical trauma there. But I am glad we are putting an end to real rape being acceptable.
If someone makes us uncomfortable I was told by a recruiter that it was customary to give the man a chance to know what he dd and to apologize. And in that case such apology never came but the leader did eventually apologize for not having noticed it or heard it, the first time I complained to him. Thanks to #MeToo !
4
When Saying ‘Yes’ Is Easier Than Saying ‘No’
The feminist movement will not have arrived until women own their women-ness. If you want equality you have to be equal. Jessica Bennett needs to learn to own her decisions. Perhaps then she will be free of her insincere yes.
I remember asking a women to tell me what she wanted, her response, "no, you are the man, it is your job to figure it out."
52
Your anecdote about your memory of a sexual encounter does not apply universally to women or men. It's sounds like an excuse for your behavior.
I'm Not saying it was non-consensual. Given your comment indicating you were uncomfortable with the situation , perhaps you should have made the decision to stop instead of leaving it up to the woman to say No.
Maybe we should just not be having sex with people we don't know well enough to know if we mean "yes" or "no". How about waiting a little longer before going to bed with someone (both men and women)? It might help clear up some of these doubts. Just saying....
182
Ummm, that WAS no, dude. Did you figure it out?
All these experts are interesting. I claim no expertise. I simply want to affirm that sexuality is one of the mysteries of life. Life is complicated and so is sex. Anyone who believes they have a lock on truth seems eager to explain this aspect of life to all of us. Thanks to the 107 thus far who have tried.
7
What on earth is wrong with saying "is this ok with you" and getting a "yes.". People who cannot communicate on that simple level should not be touching each other's genitals. This doesn't infantilize anybody. it makes sure everyone is on the same page. The comments on this article are distressing. The New Yorker story was absolutely realistic. Everyone should read it. Especially the men writing comments here.
I have dealt with sexual assault victims who froze, cried, and passed out, some of whom were men. An affirmative yes might have helped everyone in those situations. A rape accusation is not fun and games for anyone, no matter how reasonable the misreading of the situation.
19
If you indicate to someone that you plan to have sex with them, avoiding the decision to back out probably isn't going to be informed as much by some vague notion that (American) society views all women as sex objects so much as a sense of personal responsibility for one's words and actions, or out of consideration to the potential partner. I'm a male and would feel the same compulsion to go through with it if I indicated that I would even if my feelings changed. The problem with sexual harassment/sexual assault isn't so much about having a bad experience; we have and opt into bad experiences all the time. It's about a violation of autonomy. Using the "unpleasant" standard hints at a world where punishment is meted out without a corresponding violation. I'm by no means arguing that one SHOULD follow through even if they don't want to; anyone should feel free to back out of sex at any point. But should one decide to go through with it, that's a personal choice and responsibility and probably not informed by a norm of women being sex objects. To the degree that society creates sexual expectations (probably moderate to high) and the degree to which that factors into decisions made in the bedroom (probably not very high on the list), it stands to reason that pressure would be higher on men to perform than women. Antiquated gender roles may sexualize women, but they also fetishize virtue and chastity. Men on the other hand are ridiculed for their inability to perform.
4
Yup, she's taking the responsibility for her decision to choose a crushingly unpleasant path in order to avoid an even more unpleasant path, neither of which were her choice.
Saying yes, or more often, just avoiding saying no, is her way of signaling which of the two choices she prefers.
The guy gets to pretend he's being gallant, letting her decide. The trick he's learned is how to trap a female in a situation with only two unpleasant choices.
That's what she's writing about. Didn't you read it?
2
It was her choice. The metaphorical she could have said no to the encounter in the first place. Or at the end of dinner or the night. Humans have agency and this is what used to be called a cop out. Sorry but life is a series of choices and some are tough. But the view that someone was "trapped" is that of the ideologue.
4
It's sex. It's not always wonderful. It's a mixed bag. Good. Bad. Sometimes both simultaneously. And so: Nuanced. Confusing. In other words: it's life -- for both sexes. Is it really such a big revelation that life is confusing, often morally ambiguous, not always clear? Get over it.
50
I think the point of this article is further illuminate the background and nuances of the cultural soup we are in so that we can more effectively guide and navigate our way through these turbulent times of cultural change and hopefully land ourselves in a place that is better for everybody, both women and men!
Women need to get clear on the cultural forces that have been influencing them so that they can more clearly discern what they want and don't want and take responsibility for setting their own boundaries and communicating them effectively. Most reasonably healthy women (unless deeply traumatized by sexual abuse) can "evolve" on this issue and get more effective at discerning and communicating their own desires and boundaries.
Men need to get clear on the cultural forces that have led them to believe that women exist for their gratification and that they have a right to use women (and other resources) for their own benefit without regard to the consequences on those they are using. Most reasonably healthy men (unless the distorted version of masculinity rampant in our culture is deeply embedded in their psyche as narcissistic sociopathology) are capable of "evolving" to upgrade their own values and learn to honor others' boundaries.
Clearly, many college students arrive on campus with inadequate self-awareness, sex education, and underdeveloped emotional/cultural intelligence on these issues. Clearly, many in other sectors of society remain in similar condition.
11
This is simply more ideology as laid out in the view of men. Most of us have and do honor boundaries. Also, no one has the right to use resources. In a competitive setting we compete for them. The utopian collective model fails every time.
1
“Women have been taught, by every cultural force imaginable, that we must be ‘nice’ and ‘quiet’ and ‘polite.’ That we must protect others’ feelings before our own. That we are there for others’ pleasure,” said Rachel Simmons.
Not the ones I know, and Simmons must never have met any of my eleven ex wives.
13
All-black and all-white thinking reflects the point of view of a five-year-old.There is a lot of grey area in life. There's no reason why sex would be any exception to this, especially when viewed in retrospect. There is a lot of rewriting of narrative in life, and there is no reason why sex would be an exception to that as well.
10
I have had sex with lots of women in my life. The only times when I can say that sex did not lead to heavily conflicted feelings afterwards about whether it was "a good idea" or not was when I was in a relationship and/or in love. In all of these conversations about consent and sex--perhaps we should note that they seem to almost all be about hooking up--not about people in love. Maybe that should be discussed more? It might help clarify some of the problems.
It's also amazing how little agency the women are given credit for having. Not only against the men but against "society". I know a lot of women who like sex and don't just "consent" to it. Instead of just writing about all the bad sex, can we have some articles about the good sex? Just so we can remember what that looks like?
62
I'm willing to bet most sexually active men have also experienced bad sex--sex they felt they couldn't turn down because they had to take it when it was offered, had the experience of seeming to watch themselves and wondering "what am I doing here?" and regretted having done it.
The reason you don't hear more about this experience from men is that men just shrug and say "So what? It's just sex. Hope next time is better."
28
Only 10 percent of women give consent via body language? And yet 61 percent of men think they do?
Wow, talk about miscommunication.
By the way, I'd be interested to see the study on whether men use body language to give consent or do it verbally.
Or didn't anyone bother to study that?
5
No, it said only 10% _think_ they do. I'm guessing men, forced to interpret body language as the culturally conditioned "initiator" are picking up on things the women don't even realize. Of course the men could be interpreting wrong as well.
Richard Feynman once told a rather amusing story titled, “You Just Ask Them?” He had been spending his evenings in a bar trying to figure out how he could get sex from the waitresses. Then the owner of the bar told him not to be nice to them and not to buy them drinks, but to just ask them. Feynman tried it out and it worked. Then he tired it out on an ordinary girl, and that worked too. Feynman concluded: “But no matter how effective the lesson was, I never really used it after that. I didn’t enjoy doing it that way. But it was interesting to know that things worked much differently from how I was brought up.” {Feynman, Richard P.; Ralph Leighton. "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!": Adventures of a Curious Character: Adventures of a Curious Character (Kindle Locations 2823-2825). W. W. Norton & Company. Kindle Edition.} That approach of Feynman’s seems pretty straightforward, but now we learn that it isn’t, that “yes” might mean “no.” Feynman famously said that anyone who thought he understood quantum physics doesn’t understand it. I suppose that’s where we are right now with regard to sex. It’s something that goes on between persons, is essential for human life, but ultimately, anyone who claims to understand it doesn’t.
7
Welcome to the unfortunate world of the responsible adult, where your word is your bond, and while you are free to say what you like, you must also live by the consequences. We all, men and women alike, take the chance when we make a decision that we will regret it. If you don't think there are also immature men who say "yes" or push the question only because they know It Is Expected "by society" and their upbringing, you are not trying very hard to think beyond your own parochial experience.
The reality is that if you are an adult deemed capable of consent, and you have given consent, then any regrets you have later is a problem you have with yourself. It is not anyone else's job to protect you from your own bad decisions, or to take responsibility for you. And suggesting that women as a group are incapable of giving consent because they are, well, just women after all — that is insulting, counterproductive, and offensive to responsible adults of any gender. Cut it out.
69
If we can escape our tunnel vision for a moment, we may recognize that we have all frequently said "yes" when it should have been "no" in many different decision-making situations. In few instances, however, do we try to excuse our mistake by claiming that it someone else's responsibility to know that we didn't mean it.
50
I had the good fortune to come of age in the free love/pre-HIV ambience of the late 60s and 70s. In that era the women tended to be the aggressors at least as often as the men. That was an added blessing for the shy and insecure boy I was, because otherwise I would probably never have gotten laid. From those days on, I learned a precious life lesson which has always served me well. When interested I clearly project my admiration and willingness to progress. After that I step back and wait. If she wants me, she will surely let me know. The subject matter of this important piece fascinates me. But it has never been a part of my experience.
34
Your one step and wait practice is at the very least an act of male privilege if not blatant sexual harassment should the woman you are interested in have a zero tolerance for being so approached. And whether the author acknowledges it or not, her encounter with the thirty year old males him a rapist.
1
What I don't understand in all this nuanced parsing of what constitutes consent on the part of women is that feminists have apparently made their peace with prostitution and the porn industry. Presumably, the women who have sex or put their bodies on display in order to make a living and put food on the table are more empowered than the aspiring professionals who feel pressured to say yes to further their careers or the girl who agrees to have sex in order to be "popular". If feeling financial pressure or being forced to conform to men's expectations of what women are willing to do constitute coercion for some women, why not for all women?
12
A well thought out idea!!
I am the first in my family that did not HAVE to become a coal miner.. Instead I joined the Marines and went to Vietnam because I believed that was the safer choice.
Men and women have always had to make choices between two not very attractive issues. Black lung, coal mine collapses, agent orange, amputations, coerced sex. Just some of the choices that life tosses at us. We make the choice and move on.
2
Most of the comments here either agree, or disagree, or agree on some points and not others. Many comments go beyond what the writer has actually said and infer things she must think others should do or are guilty of... I saw none of that.
Are we no longer able to share information and experiences without assumption of condemnation or approval or instruction, just for the sake of awareness that this thing is out there, right, wrong or neutral? Can't we just read something about an experience someone has had and say, "that's interesting, it has widened my understanding of the broad range of experiences other people endure, which may be useful in the future (or helped me understand some past experience of mine)." If you read this as a condemnation of men or women, you read it looking for a condemnation and found it, but did you learn anything?
14
Based on the comments, I would say that learning was not done.
The author explored some of the murkier areas of how much societal norms and expectations influence the capacity to freely give consent or not and the responses have been typical products of rape culture - that any attempts to even discuss boundaries of consent are victimizing innocent men, that women should just take responsibility for their actions, that these crazy feminists aren’t acknowledging that it’s all just science.
That a woman cannot even discuss consent without this response is so indicative of the problem our culture has with sex.
3
The issue of women being ambivalent about having sex is NOT something that has NEVER been discussed, but anyone, male or female, who tried to point out the gray areas of consent was shouted down by those who insisted that every sexual encounter must be approved as if both parties were writing a notarized prenup contract. Life just doesn't work quite that way for most of us. And we go along with things sometimes to find we feel stupid or awkward afterwards - - usually, it doesn't turn out to be the worst decision ever, but an embarrassing one.
Society in many guises does tell - has told - girls how to act for the ages. There has been no letup in pressures about our looks, and behavior, and there are always mixed signals about use and abuse of sexual attractiveness.
There is also a body of work in feminism which exists to point out the political and personal problems that comes from allowing your boundaries to be set by others, and to trigger thinking about what a woman wants for herself.
Choosing for yourself incurs risks - some people won't like you for it, some men will be turned off by it, you may be called names: you might even have to look at your own imperfection. But -either you figure out your values, and make your own decisions accordingly, or drift along as some sort of eternal child. If we as women want men to be responsible - we have to be so.
17
Having aged out of the sexual marketplace, I may be oversimplifying this... but it seems to me that women could address this situation more productively via their own interactions, rather than via clever fiction in "The New Yorker."
In other words, "Hey, you know what? I changed my mind. Now get off of me."
The article makes a good point that many women may feel culturally constrained from doing this, but it could have been more explicit about saying that constraint is ridiculous. Most women nowadays have no qualms walking away at the last minute from a bad lease deal, or sending back a dish at a restaurant. This shouldn't be any harder.
7
It is impossible to walk away from a man who has pinned you down.
True, but that has no bearing on this article. This writer is describing situations in which women are seeming to participate willingly, consensually. The men are behaving sexually, not violently, and the women could say NO if they were willing to do so. Not all sex that you regret is traumatizing, in fact almost none of it is. We all make mistakes, have regrets; this is how we learn. Rape is something completely different than regrettable but consensual sex.
6
When we say yes... it means yes. If we regret it or don't want it that's our problem.
66
It's only the woman's problem until she makes an allegation years later that ends the man's career, happy marriage, or liberty. A reluctantly given yes (and the woman's resulting guilt and regret) shouldn't later be weaponized against the man, or worse, turned into a criminal complaint. The newly announced " zero tolerance" policy of the DNC seems to encourage women to engage in just such retroactive and retaliatory allegations.
10
If a woman doesn't know what she wants, how can anyone else?? “Women have been taught, by every cultural force imaginable, that we must be ‘nice’ and ‘quiet’ and ‘polite.’ That we must protect others’ feelings before our own. That we are there for others’ pleasure,” Seems to me, that went out at least 30 years ago. I was certainly never taught that but maybe that idea started in the 60's when young people were preaching free love.
Women can not have it both ways, to want to be seen as strong and capable and still play the victim. The first sign of strength is taking responsibility for one's own actions. It seems to me that this article only further muddies the waters.
And yes, I am a woman.
67
Culture is an autocrat far more demanding than most "individuals" might like to believe, and it controls a man's behavior every bit as effectively as a woman's. Men may not like to admit it -- and women may find the idea incomprehensible -- but there are many occasions when men too engage in sexual behavior because it's "what they're supposed to do." Is genuine "autonomy" even possible, or is it just another cultural construct?
Still, even if major aspects of our behavior are largely beyond our control, we have to behave as if they were -- by accepting responsibility for our actions, however constrained they may be
2
So Yes means No and No means Yes unless, of course, Yes means Yes and No means No. Women have sex when they don’t want to and don’t have sex when they do want? And men, who are generally clueless to begin with when it comes to understanding women, are supposed to understand this and make the right decision?
Thanks for clearing up the matter.
61
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs. Unfortunately due to the different ways men and women think sexual interactions will never be perfect for either sex.
Thank you for a thoughtful and thought-provoking article, which matches more closely my reflections about my somewhat distant past. I just read "Cat Person" last night and it treats the confusion of come-on and revulsion really well, as only fiction can do.
My favorite male comment in all this (the Guardian, I don't have a link) went, as far as I can remember, like this. He's an example of a guy who was far from exclusive in his relations, I don't know the history, but it's good advice.
In a lively lifetime of enjoyable relations with the opposite sex, he said, he always did a couple of things.
First, he didn't have sex on the first date, but got to know the person (I think he mentioned 10 or more meetings over time) first.
Second, he made sure the desire/attraction was mutual, before, in his lovely evocation of history, they "got naked" together.
Seems pretty simple. All this complicated nuancing could be bypassed by this simple process, and if I had followed this advice in my youth, would have saved me some heartbreak. Women and men experience sex differently, but surely mutual like is a good starting place!
18
Are you talking about love?
While I'm glad to see the issues of sexual harassment and assault being publicly aired and hope that as a society we are able to change abhorrent behavior, this seems a bridge too far. Human interactions will always involve regret in some cases, even post-hoc revulsion, and it isn't limited to women or sexual behavior. As a heterosexual male I had many encounters with women that I regretted when I was young, including many that I successfully avoided, but not without considerable difficulty. In terms of desire, and the inevitable soft lines one needs to cross for fulfillment, men and women are not that different. What is different is physical strength and power, where men can and do more frequently act out their desires regardless of reciprocity and, in some cases, without restraint. That's where the focus should be. Shifting the focus to angst about the very nature of human interaction, where even a stated yes does not apparently mean yes, will lead to a very strange future, one that I will not be a part of, thankfully.
8
I thought this article was good generally and had a few small nitpicks. Also, those of you who are now convinced that women will be sending men to jail for rape because of second thoughts. Read it again please. For actual comprehension.
However, yes means yes includes enthusiastic non-verbal actions in most places. It isn't just about words.
I would say that there was not enough emphasis on male pestering and the inability to end said situation contributing to consenting to sex you don't want. Where he takes no to mean I didn't try hard enough to convince you.
I am puzzled by all the people who can't understand that women (and yes some men) might change their mind about an encounter but not know how to communicate that after a certain point. If you've started physical intimacy, if you've gone to his house etc. Then you realize you really don't want to have sex with him. There are not a lot of scripts for explaining this. It's embarrassing. It's awkward. You don't want to be that crazy girl. And you don't want to be raped. Because that's at the back of your mind as well. That maybe he won't be so nice about your change of heart. And then what? Better 'meh' sex than feeling your body is not your own, or violence or god knows what.
20
No I don't understand this at all. I think it's perfectly consistent to say "I am happy to kiss but not ready for sex," or to leave a man's house before progressing past the point of comfort.
If women don't know how to say 'no' that's certainly something we should be teaching. But yes, odd that so many profess not to be able. It doesn't take a 'script' to say "I'm going home now."
13
I guess men “can’t take Yes for answer” either, wake me when this author will take responsibility for her actions
81
This pop psychology is the ultimate frustration for professionals. I not only specialize in treating victims and helping them move to become survivors, I have extensively studied this area. Working in forensics with offenders as well, and also studying all areas of our “Rape Culture” people should look to facts. “Rape myths”, or things women are told they did by society that caused the assault that are utterly false. It’s a twisted concept that blames, and gives a false sense of safety. “If I just never do that again it won't happen again. I’ll be safe.” This is the lie our society tells to control the victim. Like, “Drinking?” “Wearing?” “If you texted that message or picture you must have wanted to.” Now, “well you said yes, or, did at some point.” It’s believed rape is regulated not prohibited. I struggle to help find justice without revictimizing. Women are the “sexual gatekeepers” of what is “allowed” as men are told to push. Society needs an overhaul. So many people are meeting based on these vile apps.Pressure for sex immediately is fierce. The messages prior make women not report. 80% don’t. Many offenders on are still on there. The only way is tell the truth about their rights, and a breakdown of the above. Men? Meaning not victims, ignored here. Hearing it from a man, and stating the law and fear of consequences if they break it. Sadly. You can feel in control and empowered again..www.rainn.org. Anonymous. Time for you to get power back.
4
If sexual consent was seen as a "black issue," like criminal justice reform is, there would be no "grey area." It would be, you said yes, and that that's that. No exceptions. It's the law. However, since sexual consent, harassment, et al. is seen as a white women's issues, we'll be able to throw all form of logic and precedent out the window.
6
When my daughter was 9, I came home late from a business trip to find her still sitting at the kitchen table with her uneaten dinner in front of her. My wife was exhausted and in no uncertain terms told me to get our stubborn daughter to eat her dinner. I walk up to her and pushed the plate away from her and switch it with the dessert that my wife told her she couldn’t have until she finished her meal first. Then I told her that when she’s finished with dessert to please, as a favor to her mom, could she eat at least some of her dinner, which she did.
My wife asked me why I did what I did and I told her that I will never allow any person, especially a man, to break my young daughter’s will by intimidation. Let her wins these battles and allow her to know her own strength.
109
I have sat in your daughter's seat at the table. Family dinner rules were simple and firm.
1) Dinner was at 5:30, be there, kitchen closes after the meal.
2) Take all you want; Eat all you take
I was on time. But I did not put split pea soup in that bowl.
"You will sit there until you eat that" declared mom. Hours went by; siblings were sleeping.
Mom: "You're not gonna eat that are you"
Me: "Mom, I'll throw up if I eat one spoonful"
She reached around me with both arms and hugged a long moment.
"Brush your teeth and get ready for bed". I smile at her love as I type the memory.
My "will" wasn't rewarded by manipulation. It was recognized and accepted.
That meal was in the late '50s.
I have raised daughters since; both of them are confident, optimistic, employed very well, one married with kids, one single.
I stressed thinking skills, people skills, and compromise...as a custodial dad. Girls become women when they learn they can trust their ability to fashion thoughts to govern themselves, and all their levels of relationships with others.
Enjoy the privilege of raising youth to become successful adults. I savor it still, as my daughters "text me" how they are kayaking-thru-life.
Ps. You are raising kids of the 21st century and internet world of pseudo persona. The current shake up of sexual dynamics will crescendo anew and anew as imitation vs genuine grows indiscernable.
You are making a difference Mr Campos, in a truly unexplored world to come!
What you did was to undermine your wife AND relay to your daughter that even female leadership can be ignored at one's choosing. O agree that since it was a daughter, a softer tone might have been appropriate since its never correct to threaten a woman bit your response was too far the other way. BTW, had it been a son, you would have needed to reinforce your wife's instructions and doubled down on the consequences. In the matter of discipline, boys are decidedly different than girls.
2
So instead you're teaching your daughter that her mother's decisions can be overruled by her father's? Not sure you're really striking a blow for gender equality there.
3
"...simply lying there and waiting for it to be over"
This has to be not only one of the most insulting things a man whose senses have matured could ever encounter, but also a resignation which, save the oaf who thinks himself the reincarnation of Don Juan, demeans any sense of actual pleasure.
Most of us understand without having to be told by words when to stop. My mom and sister clued me in that women do think differently than men.
8
So ...
If the woman says yes and the man believes her, he can still be labeled a sexual aggressor?
Maybe the fundamentalists and the Victorians had the right idea.
20
I’d like to read this article as an exploration rather than a verdict, and I believe that’s how it was written.
I don’t think the author means that men are to blame for a woman’s uncertainty.
In the spirit of exploration, I note that while women undoubtedly have sex they didn’t really want and feel bad about it afterward, both men and women have sex they really did want and still feel bad about it afterward. I have had whole relationships I really wanted at the time, but turned out to have been bad for me.
Women, like men, sometimes regret having said Yes to sex, but perhaps also regret having said No. What if. . . .
Consider that a long time ago, say in the 1950s, women were as a general matter taught to be much more subservient than they are today, yet said Yes to sex less readily.
I doubt we will ever fully understand the human sexual drive and, more generally, the intimate dance between men and women. Exploration is probably the best we can do.
225
I am from that generation and from the rural midwest but I was never taught to be subservient to men nor were my friends. I think that the idea many have of that period are based on the statements of the early feminists which experienced only some segments of our society.
7
We'll never fully understand anything but we do have a handle on mating in humans and some animals. Men compete for power; women compete for men, as one scholar put it back in the 50s -- and for good evolutionary reasons.
Powerful men can protect women during periods of vulnerability such as pregnancy and nurturing. Men can be profilate with their sperm, but a female is born with all the eggs she's ever going to have, a bit more than 300, and each ovulaton is a necessary challenge and a threat. David Buss put it well ("The Evolution of Desire: Strategies of Human Mating.")
"Women across all continents, all political systems (including socialism and communism), all racial goups, all religous groups, and all systems of mating (from intense polygyny to presumptve monogamy) place more value than men on good financial prospects."
The introducion of effective contraception has changed the formula in ways not yet understood. Right now we seem to be in a period of transition.
2
It used to be the Boy Scouts and the girl guides...and eveybody what the stop sign indicated. But somehow everything got so nuanced for one gender knowingly of a certain age. An the other gender, presumably lacking in nuance and knowing-ness, became or remained confused. Nowadays, it's hard to tell one from the others which from which. Maybe add more nuance...
I thought of this as more of a rallying cry to teach our children to be more autonomous and to exhibit more assertiveness no matter the consequence. And to reframe our own interactions.
It’s not about blaming men, it’s about reframing the interaction and a woman’s role within it.
Stop acting like everything is about you, men. Sometimes, it’s about women and how we can create better outcomes for ourselves.
17
There are a couple of issues being conflated which need to be addressed separately: "normal" sexual interaction - the biologically based process of sexual encounter, its gamesmanship, courting, and other mate finding activities - and sexual abuse - predation based on power, physical strength and intimidation. Women, (men too, but that's another subject) need to be educated by parents, the community, society in general that they need to recognize the difference and the fact that there is a huge difference between the two types of behavior.
Modern society expects more of women and, while many women feel security in the traditional male protect me tradition and the stronger (of either sex) do need to protect the weaker (of either sex) women can't continue to play role of I must please the male until it's too late. When, in a heated situation an unwelcome hand goes where it shouldn't, an item of clothing is getting removed, the relationship is going down a pretty obvious path, certainly from a male's perspective. Decent men, although they may want sex, can appreciate and respect women who, when they don't want to engage in sex, say no.
But when a woman who considers sex an important part of a relationship acqueisces in consentual sex only to later regret it, it's her own fault.
8
Of course how many decent men are there? How many men who having gotten heated are polite if she changes her mind? That's the thought in every woman's mind and it plays into a consent to encounters that woman has since decided she doesn't want.
It doesn't mean she charges him with rape which for some reasons less careful readers are convinced is happening.
I'd also say in these encounters, not it isn't always the woman's fault. Many men are pesterers who refuse to stop asking. Sure they wouldn't rape you but neither are they taking your 16th no for an answer. I don't expect anyone to take a single no without some persuasion at some other point. But jeeze men, stop behaving like a telemarketer or a used car salesmen.
10
It is not a"different subject" that men have to be taught how to behave as well as women. It is the same subject. I have learned that much after many decades of thought. For every lesson a woman is taught, a lesson is taught to men. And vice versa.
For every woman who chafes and suffers at the lessons--for example, subservience but that is just one of many possibilities--a man chafes and suffers at the lesson of dominance. For every little girl who is taught not to fight, a little boy is taught to do the opposite.
And do not think that is an easy or healthy lesson for the average gentle and kind little boy. We destroy little boys and girls in equal numbers. We all suffer in this life unnecessarily. It's bad enough without the stereotypes most parents have absorbed.
2
Talk about blaming the victim! If a woman later regrets having sex, if course the man has committed rape. Period. Since biology has made sex with a man a violent act, who else is to blame?
Are women's brains really this ambiguous? Maybe...I don't know...probably...maybe not...well, kind of...sort of...I might know in a minute...No, yes...no-yes...yes-no. Blah, blah, blah!
30
Dan Hoffman - I am a woman and I have never been ambivalent about whether I want sex with a man or not. I also don’t hit on men because female on male aggression has always seemed unnatural to me. I had no idea there were so many sexually aggressive women around. I suspect that female on male sexual aggression is largely a myth.
Speaking as a man, after reading this article......I just say no.
How in the heck do two people ever find each other and have a "happily ever after"? I thought it was possible forty years ago and now I think the opposite. There are only shades of grey for 99% of us in a "romantic" relationship.
Embrace the suck, as Nancy Pelosi might say.
4
Why do women always think it is just them giving in? Men have had sex with women they really don’t want to because they feel obliged to do so. This obligation can be because we don’t want to hurt someone’s feelings or because we think it is the manly thing to do. Women can berate men into sex also. We also wake up feeling uneasy about suspect choices. This is not just a women’s issue. Stop treating it like that.
95
David, I honestly think many women can't quite believe that a man would be conflicted about having sex with them.
And yet ambivalence isn't owned by just women.
Men are far more complicated than our current dialogue about sex will admit.
8
When one of the high school seniors I teach brought in a sexual consent form popular on college campuses and designed to protect the interests of both parties—but really the male partner—I was torn. On one hand I wondered whether sex based on such transactional relationships is what people really want—uncomplicated physical pleasure. At the same time I asked myself is such a thing really possible? What the ne too movement seems to be saying is that
3
Maybe abstinence is the answer. Their grades would likely reflect it and their future employers would benefit greatly. My job has a policy of no activities or interests outside of work and it results in higher profits.
Are we really going to say that bad or lukewarm sex was non-consensual and is worthy of equating with harassment and worse because the woman is just too culturally brainwashed to be submissive and therefore is not assertive enough to prevent or stop the sex she isn’t enjoying? Really, Ms. Bennett, that’s what you want? I won’t be joining you.
Am I to understand that in Ms. Bennett’s mind, even a clear “yes” is actually “no,” and that the man is somehow supposed to know that the sex she consented to is non-consensual?
Am I to understand that’s if the man doesn’t know that her “yes” was a “yes” and that her participation was a “yes,” that this is his fault and she bears no responsibility for his not knowing she didn’t want sex?
Am I to believe that we women are simply helpless brainwashed creatures that are incompetent to give consent?
Sorry Ms. Bennett, as a long-time feminist and a woman who has been sexually harassed, I strongly disagree with what you are asserting and with the path you are taking.
162
That’s not what she said at all. She just said that mindful consent was difficult, more difficult than it should be, for some women. This is due to societal norms. I will say for me, it’s not about being desired, it was usually about be surprised with an overture and flattered more than feeling reciprocal and then feeling awkward with saying “no thank you.” Especially if the male pursuer was persistent and I had an other connection to him, say (former) coworker, professional peer, friend of that person’s sibling, etc. it gets very awkward and I was raised to smooth out situations and judge how to make people happy. I was programmed to entertain and soften....I was never trained to be assertive. Assertiveness was literally spanked right out of child-me. So I have had situations where I should have said “no” and shoved someone and I didn’t. Because I was never trained that was acceptable.
I am much older now and understand, trained or no, I am responsible for my actions. But I definitely see weaknesses that were built into me and want to avoid doing that to my 2 precious daughters.
24
I don't see Ms. Bennett say anywhere that having said yes when her real emotions said no, that a woman then had grounds to run to the police (or the media) with accusations of sexual predation or to bring down a man's career. She is explaining one difficulty in male-female sexual interactions. Judging from the comments, it is news to a lot of the men who read the article. To explain one thing doesn't make it a statement about anything else.
That said, as a lifelong feminist, I agree with you that it is a giant step backward to pretend that women are conditioned to be weak and ambivalent about sex, and incapable of communicating clearly. I fear that *some aspects* of #MeToo promote the stance of the most easily offended women and set it as the standard for all.
Young women today seem far more knowledgeable and assertive about sex than was the case when I was young, and I was more assertive than my mother had been (and, I suspect, than she had ever needed to be). Life is full of hesitantcies and regrets. Making a bad "yes" decision is one of them and is worthy of discussion, without putting it into the same category as sexual aggression and out-and-out rape.
17
While the male involved might not recognize the "yes" that's really a "no", the act is still based on male aggression, making it a rape.
"Sometimes “yes” means “no,” simply because it is easier to go through with it than explain our way out of the situation. Sometimes “no” means “yes,” because you actually do want to do it, but you know you’re not supposed to lest you be labeled a slut. And if you’re a man, that “no” often means “just try harder” — because, you know, persuasion is part of the game."
And if in either case you go to the police the next day and allege rape, you can destroy an innocent man's life and enjoy the ferocious support of the Sisterhood no matter what the truth really is - especially if you were drunk or high and thinking even less clearly than usual. Because it's now a necessary truth that women never lie about consent, right?
143
That's not what this article says, Male Victim. Read it again, this time trying to understand rather than to condemn it. For example, where does it say that women never lie about consent?
5
Please please try to understand. This isn't about false accusations. It's not really even taking men's experiences into account, although that would be truly interesting to explore. It's about the grey and nuanced thing that consent can be. It rang a bell for me, and I suspect for many adult women, but I'm hardly about to go out and file assault charges against myriad men.
Nor would most women.
I have supported several women who did file rape charges. In every case, their side of the story was unequivocal. And in every case, the amount of suspicion, accusation, and the assault of the legal system was so extreme that only one of them followed through with the charges, only to have the DA decide that a woman's word could not convict a man.
Rape isn't an easy charge to file, harder to investigate, and nearly impossible to convict. Consider Brock Turner, and get back to me again.
5
When will we all consent to the fact that sexuality always connects with emotion? Obviously, you need not have a profound emotional bond to sleep with someone - or you might think you have one, only to watch it evaporate - but the the attempt to reduce sex to a bodily pleasure/need on a par with fine dining, say, or entertainment, turns us all into spectators.
136
@MB - Your first sentence where you say, "the fact that sexuality always connects with emotion?" is an overstatement that flies in the face of the realities of male sexuality, and even more so for young male sexuality.
2
Though sometimes it really is just about the sex obviously.
1
Oh, c'mon!. Sexuality always connected with emotion? Not a chance. Sometimes me and my partner are turned on -- I recall a very arousing tango that had our nostrils flaring -- and are simply seeking the passion of the act. (We remained dance partners . . .)
2
What on earth is "the nosebleed sections of their own sex lives"?
Editor’s note: This comment has been anonymized in accordance with applicable law(s).
3
Isn't that when the blood is coming out of her ... wherever as DJT said?
As a survivor of rape, during which I was brutally attacked and sexually assaulted in broad daylight by a complete stranger, I find this whole article and the Affirmitive Decision movement completely insulting. If only I could have been so lucky as this author was to have had sex with a friend's cute older brother, who most certainly did not attack her from behind, choke her into submission, and leave a lifetime of personal insecurity fears.
All sexual assaults are not created equally, but yet, in today's media world, which currently sees any woman claiming foul for whatever type of male transgression to be a sexual victim, we risk an erroneous one-size-fits-all paradigm. . When will women stop accusing men for sexual encounters that only weeks/months/years later they (women) realize was unwanted, despite their actions at the time of the encounter indicating otherwise. Women need to take personal responsibility for their actions and stop unfairly blaming men for what was entered into by two mutually consenting individuals. "No" means "no"; anything else smacks of illegitimate victimhood.
428
Could we just get rid of the notion of "seduction"? Seduction is actually sexual assault because it is based on overcoming a woman's "no". When I say no to a man, I mean it. Men have treated my clear "no" as a "maybe" and acted accordingly, using deception to get me alone and physical force to "get" sex from me. That's rape. It is inexcusable.
Why do men even want to have sex with an unwilling woman? It is all about picking up the phone to call his buddies to brag about it? That is sick, and it needs to stop.
13
No. Men are supposed to be gentlemen and for the vast majority are. Women just don't know what they want and then regret having sex with men that they think are not worth their physical affection. They regret and then question whether they can somehow renounce it by denying even having given consent. This most often happens when the man is not as attractive as they would have wanted to justify the sexual connection in their minds. Look at all the accused men. How many are "hot"? None. Absolutely none. This is a nonsense Sexual Inquisition against unattractive men.
16
The difference between an "unwanted sexual attention" and that which is welcomed is how much the guy looks like Brad Pitt.
4
My most recent rapist would love you. About a week before he raped me - relying on neighborhood talk that I was a “slut” (talk of which I was completely unaware, and about which he did not warn me) - I told him I had been celibate for years and was not interested in having sex with anyone, and I told him why. The next time he saw me, he got me alone, pinned me down with his ugly 350-pound body, and attacked me. He never asked if I wanted to have sex with him, I never said “yes” to him and I clearly did not want him. I was too terrified to utter the word “no”. Was I, in your opinion, raped? The police supported him, apparently thinking what he did was “seduction”. Guys like you make me sick.
14
And since a woman should be able to decide what happens to her own body, that is how it should be.
3
So the solution is for men to assume the girl is always weak minded, vulnerable and confused?
Remind me why anyone would want to take them seriously much less hire them.
255
Understand now why men feel so puzzled and not get the right messages as well
276
I don't buy that. As men, we are not trying to gather evidence of mixed messages to justify are actions. If the woman is a little passive and mumbling a yes, back off and say let's just snuggle a little. If she is tugging at your clothes but not saying a word, well, that's a clue isn't it. This is not contract law, Greg.
6
“When Saying ‘Yes’ Is Easier Than Saying ‘No’”
As a liberal, I don’t no whether to laugh or cry.
26
Freud encapsulated this knotty issue when he asked: "What do women want?"
8
This essay should be titled "Close Encounters of the Yes/No Kind". So much of this "business" is excessive self introspection of feelings, decisions and a detritus of aftermath that eventually finish as memories. The memories are anywhere between nightmare and hilarity.
I'm seventy-seven years old now and have four children and five grandchildren---this sex thing is over blown and often forgettable content in our lives as to be almost irrelevant. There are so many things to do that Yes/No is a distraction.
As Elaine Benes might say, "Who cares?...Who has the energy?"
3
So that woman who came up to me at a party and, while standing close to me, touched me below the waist, invited me back to her apartment, took off all of her clothes with no assistance from me, then took off all of my clothes with no assistance from me -- actually didn't want to have sex. Thank you so much for clarifying that for me! I don't know how I could have possibly misinterpreted her cues.
Where is the Woody Allen orgasmitron when you need it? The only consent required their is mine.
16
Heavens, how on earth did you get this inference out of the article?????
8
Perhaps we need a mutually signed written consent before initiating a sexual encounter although it wouldn't do much for the mood and would likely diminish the delightful arousal on both sides. Being somewhat of a cynic on these matters I sometimes think back on Chris Rock's equally cynical observation regarding the Anita Hill v Clarence Thomas confirmation hearings. "If Clarence Thomas had looked like Denzel Washington this would have never happened."
3
All conversations linger around women’s need and feeling. Seems like the natural urge for men to engage in frequent sex needs to be curtailed and replaced with endless romance. Be honest about humans as animals with needs rather than a one sided opinion.
14
Woman: "I want you to be able to intuit that sometimes, when I say 'Yes', I'm really saying 'No', and then act accordingly."
Man:" Huh?"
263
As someone who's been married for almost 20 years to an incredibly sensitive man who is still is unable to read my mind, I would add that this scenario is impossible even in the context of a years-long relationship, let alone a one-night stand. Women need to learn to speak and to act in a forthright way!
14
Sex with someone you know well, care for, and trust is less problematic.
36
Women in relationships have sex they don't really want a lot. They want their partners to be happy more than they don't want to have sex. Ask any married woman.
4
Hi Susankm,
I am married, and have been for 23 years. I have a lot of sex with my husband, and always because I want to. Always. Maybe you need to talk to a few more people before making sweeping generalizations.
7
Not demanding is better than Yes or No.
Pay attention, testosterone addicts.
6
Women are being infantilized by a culture that seems to call for them to be protected not just from men but from themselves and heir decisions. I for one am tired of having women always portrayed as victims and men always portrayed as predators - men with agency to make decisions but women with none. It is the most bizarre kind of misogyny and it is being perpetuated by women. Enough!
328
Hmmm, not much here yet about what "we should teach" men. As if all males are such oafs that we need to continue to burden women with all of the effective and nuanced communication that is necessary for good sex. Maybe we should teach men how to be good and sensitive lovers. How about if men become sensitized to their own sense of entitlement? What about how to respect others' boundaries? The New Yorker story would have ended differently if the guy knew how to kiss a woman, for heavens sake. But that nasty turn to name calling at the end? Most women will recognize that experience.
12
Men need to be taught to hear “no”. In my experience, most of them are deaf to it.
8
Do all women like a man who knows "how to kiss a woman"? If so, how do I know if I am doing it right? Are the failed attempts at relationships just a result of my kissing technique?
Maybe that is my problem....by that I mean women who think that I magically "know" what they want, how they want it, and when to give it to them. Lest they be angry with me and end the relationship. With no explanation.
6
I’ve gotten over it, but it certainly made an impression on me when my first girlfriend explained to me, years ago, well after we were no longer a couple but still friends, that she would have slept with me if I hadn’t taken “no” for an answer. She wanted me to pursue her harder. That’s what turned her on, she explained. This didn’t cause me to change my behavior, because it just wasn’t in my nature to play that game. But it did make me a bit cynical ...
176
"What about a woman who doesn't feel that she can speak up because of cultural expectations?" Say what??? Several years ago when I was 20, I was at a health care meeting and a doctor in his late 20's invited me out after for ice cream. Turns out he wanted to go to his place for sex. I wasn't interested. I barely knew him. I didn't think that a change in sexual mores meant I was obligated to have sex with whomever was interested in me. I asked him to take me home, as I had arrived on public transportation, and wasn't sure how to get back. It took literally hours before he did so. In the meantime, I was subjected to a lengthy analysis of how I was "sexually repressed." I didn't feel a cultural obligation to please him. I was appalled by his arrogance. This happened on several occasions, where different men upon hearing the word "no" gave me various explanations. picking the decencies that fit. Sometimes I was racist. Sometimes a snob. Sometimes simply repressed. I guess I should be happy that it was just this and not rape.
20
This essay gets close to a salient aspect of this issue...Immediate post-coitus regret and depression is as universal among seducers as it is with the seduced...
28
Why should women feel particularly bad about this? Hasn't this sort of thing been happening for men for quite a while? If a man "ghosts" a woman after a sexual encounter, it is never such a big deal. It isn't right, but I doubt a story about such an encounter would go viral. There should not be a double-standard. People, really, have all been making this error in judgment for a long time.
2
What an awakening this article. All of this happened to me in my younger years; I thought it was just me. What I wouldn’t give to have every 13-year-old girl in the country know this by heart. It’s time for a new sexual revolution, and not the one that happened in the ‘60’s.
11
I wish people could see that "Cat Person" was about so much more than sex. It is also a window into how we create a person based on our own illusions and projections of who we think that person is, when we actually have little real information.
10
its not factualy even slighty probable that only 10 percent of women give nonverbal consent, this is a place you might start with some serious research as to how women change their stance as a witness that no it wasnt consensual,
body language isnt that massively misunderstood.
3
Good Lord. The author offers up the observation that sometimes no means yes and sometimes yes means no. What is a man supposed to make of that? What a giant leap backward. Men aren’t mind readers.
If a woman is ‘spectorating’, ie dissociating, she needs a therapist.
Yes growing up is confusing and young women are exposed to messages that may undermine their development of confident assertive self knowledge. Welcome to life. It’s a journey. Some young people, men and women, as is obvious from the ending of the New Yorker short story, are poorly equipped to express themselves. This isn’t grounds to rewrite consent.
48
And while being a victim is deeply unfortunate -- and creating one often criminal -- feeling some regret about a sexual encounter (like other encounters), might just be part of growing up. Learn from it and do better next time. This article really castastrophizes a fairly common experience. Should it be less common? Yes. I am guessing that is possible....consider how the Dutch educate their children about sex.
7
And how do the Dutch educate their children about sex?
I highly recommend reading Andrew Sullivan's column posted this past Friday in New York Magazine on the topic of #metoo and male sexuality, but inclusive of the gay perspective.
For many (ok, nearly all) men sex is an appetite with an intensity rarely found in women. Men are possessed and defined by their sexuality as a ceaseless primal force; whereas most women mediate their sexuality and rarely take it as a raw force.
4
Oh, yeah?
10
While I sympathize with the author, and expectations of women's roles are a real problem, at some point this is a "life lesson" and not specific to sex. Who among us, man or woman, has not said "Why did I not drop that course when I had the chance?" or "Why did I volunteer for that?" As an adult, you need to look forward, and thinking about how hard/awkward it is to back out is part of any decision (marriage, anyone?). As long as she could say no and walk out, but does not, then it's a decision between two unpalatable options, set up by previous actions. That's life and not assault.
19
Oh, good - so I really WAS raped since he pinned me down and I could not possibly fight him off because he outweighed me by 200 ugly pounds. I did not use the word “no” during the attack because I had already told him no unambiguously a week or so before, and I wasn’t sure he would refrain from beating my face in if I used “no” again.
I really hate women who play yes/no games with men. I have never done that, but I am tarred with that stereotype.
5
oh great. we should all agree that no means no. better yet if there is active consent. but now yes didn't even mean yes?
do I need a contract?
1. whereas this agreement covers activities of intimate nature between at least two individuals (henceforth referred to as Sex)
2. whereas said parties in full conscience agree that these activities are to the mutual benefit of all parties and therefore activities are engaged in are consistent
3. whereas parties agree that the benefits sought or derived by engaging parties may be different
4. whereas due to the fluid nature of Sex parties will repeatedly confirm consent through proclamation
5. whereas consent can be revoked by only one party at which time the agreement is suspended for further activities, but not past.
6. whereas consent can only be revoked prior or during the activities, but but not after
7. whereas parties agree that grievances toward this agreement will be litigated during due process proceedings and not in public opinion
do women really believe this makes sex better or safer?
do women really believe that only women ever had bad or gray zone sex?
4
This article, and at least one of the comments, is a near perfect example of the utter confusion that pervades our culture on this topic. Edward Allen (commenter) defines sex as "...an activity that two people engage in for fun." I would like to have that question put to your readers in the form of a survey to find out if that statement would be affirmed. Of course there is another way to understand sex--as a statement of a commitment to a relationship between two people that constitutes more meaning than playing a video game. We could also consider it, in that context, as an act of procreation that results in a new person being born into a loving union-a family. But what am I thinking...that's so "old fashioned".
3
Nothing wrong with being "old fashioned". Unless, that is, you're trying to impose your own "old fashioned" belief on someone else.
2
I suspect that all of this is true. It does confound those who insist on clarity in human relations. But to expect clarity is certainly silly or even more foolish than silly. Those who want no to mean no, or in our present era, to obtain an affirmative yes, when neither party really wants it that clear although they both want intercourse, doesn't reflect our inner reality.
People really are different. Sometimes we are not even what we were individually mere moments ago. How could two changing individuals then fit into the cookie cutter homogeneity that the present mass culture seems to demand? Zero tolerance and identical consequences demand a sameness that doesn't exist in humans.
Is this due just to sexual norms and expectations alone? Is it just a problem limited to women alone? Of course not. Maybe we can change norms, maybe. But we can't change human nature. This is why we love. We find in others things that fascinate and attract us. We often find difference beautiful, but that also means that communication will always be far less than perfect. Don't expect it to fit norms dictated by some kind of social agreement that is never anything more than than one person's opinion.
4
Our socialization (both men and women) plays a large role in how we interact and when those interactions involve sex, there is unavoidable complexity. This is understandable because we know that people come from a vast array of cultural backgrounds, from micro cultures as small as immediate families to larger religious and ethic cultural 'villages'. But Ms. Bennett's piece seems to conflate sexual harassment with the vagaries of romance. Sexual harassment is not about romance. It is about power.
Blurring the lines between the two can diminish the conversation that has opened around harassment. As long as there is human attraction, there will be discussion about the dynamics of it. Ms. Bennett's new role will undoubtedly include many columns on both the subject of harassment and attraction. Hopefully, the distinction will be clearer.
100
"But Ms. Bennett's piece seems to conflate sexual harassment with the vagaries of romance."
I don't think it's Ms. Bennett's column that is doing the conflating, but the larger "conversation" that is taking place in our society right now. For some, everything is like everything else. Harvey Weinstein = Donald Trump = Roy Moore = Al Franken = they guy you wanted to have sex with after having a little too much to drink and then regretted it = the male chauvinist pig who made no sexual moves or statements to you but refused to give you a promotion solely and simply because you're a woman = the construction workers whistling at you on the street = the guy who believed that DTF button you were wearing in the bar meant that, well, you were DTF = the loving and faithful husband who wouldn't in a million years vote for a woman to be president = the clumsy guy who is totally awkward in his approaches to women out of his shyness = the totally obnoxious guy who believes he's God's gift to women and just cannot believe any woman would ever tell him no and if she did she wouldn't mean it = Michael Pence and other religious poseurs who will punish women by refusing to be alone with them in situations where they would be alone with a man like a business lunch. Too many of us seem to have become incapable of making distinctions. Unfortunately, at least some of this conflation comes from the disempowerment women have had to deal with for most of history. How do we turn this around?
6
Sex and consent can be so complicated. Writing or speaking about it with this nuance automatically seems proscriptive, which gets in the way of understanding. Societal standards are murky at best and both men and women are in a dangerous place at present with regards to sexual interaction.
1
As technology continues to advance mind reading will be commonplace. Until then both sexes will have to muddle through. If you are smart you can read the nuance or "pick up the vibe". Bringing this conversation to the fore is a huge step in the right direction even when it gets uncomfortable around the breakfast table.
1
One of the most frightening short stories I have read is 'Panic' by Daphne DuMaurier, the author of 'Rebecca'. She was young when she wrote it, and her subtle rendering of a mundane affair on a hot summer weekend in Paris between an older man and a flirt, spreading her wings, is a cautionary tale of how easy it is to say yes, and fatal to retreat.
My parent and I used to have the most flamboyant disagreements over a three month summer in a village in Catalonia where I fled from home. Right into a large empty house she had built next door with built-in concrete furniture. She was under the misconception that I was in the hills engaging in a torrid first romance with the guru of the village.
'Bengal', as I shall call him, was waiting on the side for the final desertion of my parent, The Maternal Protector. It was a fight between these two opponents where in her role of Red Queen, she knocked him off the board to his ire. Men do not care to be beaten in games, nor in such life stories.
Love and Sex are often confused. Shame and Remorse are not the same, and while some members of the fairer sex are apt to experiment, it is important to have a safety net for angels, even those tarnished with a dark spot on one of their wings.
2
Clearly, this article points to behaviors that are separate from the current discussion of sexual harassment and sexual assault, but a very important of it.
It is early days still in the age of a new "consent consciousness" .Sexual communication has been instilled in both males and females since the earliest stirring of a sex drive. Behaviors linked to satisfying those urges have become institutionalized. Males learn to pursue, women learn to acquiesce. But this happens in all different ways. Think of it as a continuum. One extreme we find socially acceptable behavior which would include respectful, mindful and coercion free behavior. On the other extreme is the male pursuing, not taking "no", negotiating, wearing her down, followed by her eventual submission and loss of self respect.
The new behaviors, for those seeking to initiate sex will need to embody maintaining mutual self respect, understanding that no means no, that yes means yes until someone say stop, and what sexual pestering is and how it can lead to sexual harassment, or forced, un consented sex and or sexual assault.
This new protocol will need to be taught in high school and go far beyond a legal definition of sexual harassment. Parents will need to be involved and, in certain subject areas covering sensitive material, attend with students. Some will be reluctant and some will go willingly. In the end though, it will be easier r than seeing your child charged with rape down the road....
1
This is making women the victim by default. If active consent isn’t enough, what is needed, a contract signed three days in advance?
I know plenty of men who have thought, “what was I thinking?” So, this isn’t just a problem for women.
I understand that men are more powerful physically in about 90% of sexual encounters. But, this article makes it sound like women are mentally inferior in making decisions in any sexual encounter.
I have woken up, in my bed, with women I was not dating nor remember consenting to having sex with. So, was I raped? Or did I simply drink too much around the wrong group of people, back in my college days? Of course, she said she had been pursuing me for weeks, so she clearly planned this action.
16
OK, so I think I got it: sex bad? Yeah, that seems to be the main message. Oh, and the subtitle is: "yes" really means "no," and men aren't just evil, they're confused, and, um, bad in every way. Now back to real life, where we all make bad decisions a but we do not dwell on them forever.
17
Back in the nineties, the Affirmative Consent Model at Antioch College was hilariously mocked in the media, including a Saturday Night Live skit. Most people had never heard of such a policy before ('May I place my hand on my leg?" May I unbutton your blouse? May I run my fingers through your hair?")
People found it ridiculous. In fact, the Affirmative Consent policy was a primary reason that Antioch College had to close. The school witnessed seeing catastrophic declines in enrollment, especially among guys, who naturally avoided the militant call-out culture and guilty-until-proven innocent approach. I guess we forget easily in this country today.
16
That want the only reason Antioch closed, but it was emblematic.....
2
I'm a 66-year-old guy, been through more than a bit to get to this point in life, among them raising a daughter now in her twenties as a single dad.
I remember my teens and twenties well -- they were not easy years -- the era of a lot of drugs, the Viet Nam war, difficulties on a variety of fronts including college, family, ... and yes ... sex.
The presumption here seems to be that if you really didn't want to do it but you did, that's somebody else's fault -- the guy's fault, right?
Where's the you make your decisions and you own them? If it really is easier to say "yes" rather than "no" ... then that's a decision. Why blame somebody else for that?
Yes, there are guys who aren't good at taking "no" for an answer ..., but all of us have experiences with difficult people who don't take "no" for an answer ... it's a problem, perhaps even a criminal one ... but why is borderline consensual sex somehow so "special" compared to many other more blatant coercions, ones that may have more permanent or even lethal consequences?
Your parting line is a pathetic question that you don't answer: "In some respects, it’s as if they’re in the nosebleed sections of their own sex lives. What will it take for them to come back down?"
How about "don't do it again? Learn something and do something different?"
The tone of all of this is that women are utterly pathetic ... is this what you really want to say?
28
Good Lord, I am reading this, wondering if there's any hope at all for the perpetuation of the human species. When we can no longer trust any cues, verbal or non-verbal, there's no guide anymore for intimate behavior. Maybe insects do this mating gig better than we do.
17
I have found that men invent “cues” after the fact to justify the rapes they commit. How is a woman to combat those lies? Answer: she can’t.
3
John, I would not worry about the perpetuation of the species, we are WAY overpopulated as it is.
4
I don't doubt your assertion for a minute, but I was making a different point.
1
So if yes means no then these encounters should be considered sexual harassment? And the male " perpetrators should be fired from their jobs and hounded from society? This reminds me of the concept of the novel 1984 " war is peace" " freedom is slavery" ...
Maybe women should realize the true meaning of feminism. Equality means you make your own decisions and you also understand the implications of relationship before you enter into one. This is the beginning of the "pendulum swinging I the other direction". Wherein a real social problem begets hysteria that engenders a disproportionate response. So ultimately men will have to possess ESP or become passive in relationships which paradoxically will turn women off. Perhaps this will reduce the human population and solve global warming!
13
So, what does “entering a relationship” in a way that justifies a man trying to have sex with you mean? Does simply entering into a conversation with him qualify? I find men deeply delusional in this regard.
1
Why do I feel like I've been cajoled into watching a chick flick? I said “yes”, but I really meant “no”.
Given the increasingly certain penalties that we're talking about for male sexual predation, this curious notion that "sometimes 'yes' means 'no'" is downright frightening.
Occasionally, despite the fact that I've been through them many times, a client corporation's policies require that a consultant attend their sensitivity training sessions; so I do. They all basically have the same message -- our behavior, even our speech, needs to be governed by what the weakest and most insecure among us regard as "offensive". This same presumption seems to govern a lot of behavior on our campuses, as well. I'm afraid we've let the inmates take over the insane asylum. Instead of encouraging the weakest to become stronger, we empower them to define what is appropriate in society.
Men can be pigheaded about understanding and accepting an unambiguous “no”. But to suggest that they be blamed for not perceiving a “no” within a “yes” by arguing that women are emotionally “confused” (I dare anyone to take away a different message from this op-ed – I won’t be gentle in my responses to your responses) is not only absurd, it’s dangerous to keeping up the pressure to curb and punish real sexual predation.
182
Richard, I’m not getting that “suggestion that men be blamed” at all. This article is a welcome step towards getting women to admit that sometimes they willingly engage in sex, find that they’re not enjoying it mid-encounter, allow the miserable event to proceed to completion anyway, then irrationally decide it’s the “worst life decision” they’ve ever made and behave like, well, idiots. The linked ‘Cat Person’ article is a perfect illustration. Poor Robert’s only fault is that he was too old, at thirty-four, to go out with a twenty-year-old without considering that she might be a little too young to behave maturely after not-so-great sex, so he exhibits a little immaturity of his own. What else is new?
Uninspiring sex happens. Women shouldn’t become overwrought. It’s just sex. In my experience, men have a certain urgency to their drive, so I’ve never terminated an encounter mid-stream, my choice, nothing to feel bad about. If ‘good sex’ is what a woman is after in a relationship, then she should just move on. If friendship and mutual life goals are important, and those aspects of the relationship are working, then the sex can be worked on as well.
Ms. Bennett is suggesting that women figure these things out and take some responsibility, or at least come down from the “nosebleed sections of their own sex lives.” Yes, the article lurches around a bit too much, but I perceive that Ms. Bennett is mostly asking women to look within.
10
I agree with a previous commentator that this article is more of an exploration of the issue than taking some definite position. It's kind of opening up the field for discussion instead of shutting it down. If people could just get out of their issue-based silos and have a discussion it might be worthwhile. This is not just about individual responsibility. It is also about what kind of society we would like to live in. What do expect of ourselves and others.
5
Folks:
My take is that the discussion is being opened up for the purpose of drawing and quartering the presumed sins of men insufficiently nuanced to understand that women, particularly young women, make bad choices. It sounds an awful lot like "you're responsible not just for out-and-out predation, but also for not being sensitive enough to know that sometimes women say 'yes' just to shut you up".
What's the next step down that dangerous road? Body-cams on all men to subject their actions to the real-time supervision of Kirsten Gillibrand?
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We need a new culture for sex. Quite simply, a person should be able to say, "no" during sex and end it.
Sex is not a transaction. It is not a reward. It is an activity that two people engage in for fun.
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We need to stop teaching our young women to be nice, polite, and quiet. They need to know that it's ok to have boundaries. They need to know that it's ok to say no and that the person who refuses to accept the word no isn't worth it.
A lot of this confusion is cultural. Read any romance novel and you generally have the male hero working to overcome the resistance of the heroine. Boys are taught to conquer and girls are taught to be overcome.
We need to get over our puritanical attitudes towards sex and start teaching our young people when they are young what a healthy consenting relationship looks like. Think about how much healthier and happier our society would be if everyone accepted the reality that both men and women enjoy sex as long as the encounter is consensual and doesn't involve any obvious power imbalances.
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Ami..I don't know what "any" romance novels you're reading, but I enjoy the genre and this is not my experience lately, even with historical romances. Love may still conquer all, but it is full, consensual, and without power imbalance. I'd be happy to recommend a few authors, if you're interested.
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I don't think Ami is talking about the sex scenes per se, but the whole story arc. Persistance doesn't have to equal aggression. Gone with the Wind is a classic example. Scarlett resists Rhett and thinks she doesn't like him, but really it's the way he sees through the helpless belle she tries to be to the strong woman she actually is that she doesn't like. It takes 1000 pages before he gives up!
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"...We need to get over our puritanical attitudes towards sex and start teaching our young people when they are young what a healthy consenting relationship looks like. ..."
Just where are "we" going to find people who know what a healthy, consenting relationship looks like (given the clearly visible amount of dysfunction in our world), and where are "we" going to find them in sufficient numbers for it to make a difference?
Old proverb: "You can spit in one hand, and wish in the other, and see which one fills up first."
I am all for “getting” men who impose sex on women who say no. I am even warming to the affirmative-consent standard because the reality is that women/girls are often socially trained to be so passive they may not be able to say “no” clearly enough. Requiring men (usually the accused) to be doubly sure before moving forward with sex may be sensible. As the father of a daughter, I can live with men having that extra burden. However, the affirmative-consent standard is really a recognition of females’ inability to clearly assert their decisions. In other words, we are putting women on a pedestal and treating them like vulnerable little things. I can live with that, but just know that adopting that standard is, in a way, a step backwards for true equality. However, I can’t support the idea of accusing men of assault when all outward, reasonable signs indicate consent. At some point, women have to own their decisions regarding sex. Men can’t be blamed for everything.
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The author is not speaking in the context of accusing a man of sexual assault. Women live with the consequences of unwanted sex all the time. They didn't clearly say no. They had sex. That doesn't mean they can't realize it was a mistake, or that they had sex when they didn't want to. That doesn't mean they're going to the police or even telling anyone. Quit being such a beleaguered male victim. Read the short story in the New Yorker to enhance your understanding.
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"Gee, what I did was a bad idea."
That is not just sex for women, that is life for all of us.
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Ms. Bennett's article does a great job of clarifying the seeming ambiguity that is experienced by both women and men when signals or verbalization of "Yes" or "No" are made about whether or not to have sexual time together. I would offer one idea here for consideration: women aren't subject to "...what society tells us we should want(.)": a "society" or a "cutlural force" is made up of both women and men--however, I doubt whether women would be interested in putting pressure on ourselves to behave in "nice", "quiet", or "polite" ways. Let's be truthful here: females have learned what's "right" in how to behave (and how to do myriad other things, besides) from male expectations only. This reality is the reason that females' different approach on so many levels is not taken seriously by males, especially when we attempt to be understood as our own persons. Because there is no visible female value system that shares space or time alongside the male system--the result is that our female influence isn't considered to be valid. Furthermore, as female thought, feeling, or philosophy has consistently and intentionally been kept invisible or marginalized throughout history, the result is that females aren't clear about who we are, what we believe, what we want, or what we can do--living in such a vacuum, is it any wonder if we're undecided?
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Best discussion of the psychological and sociological underpinnings of the confusion as to just what constitutes sexual harassment--as opposed to just being boorish--there's been so far.
Obviously, being boorish and being a sexual predator can exist along a continuum; there are also harassing and bullying behaviors that are not explicitly sexual. And there are often pressures at any point on the continuum to go along to get along, or at least to not risk an escalation of danger and threat.
I've always thought of sexual harassment as a particularly nasty subset of overall bullying. If that's the case, it may be that attacking the power disparity that allows bullying is the inside track to reducing what the author describes here. I suspect that's going to take some rather specific rule making, though, backed up by the force of law. And I'm fairly certain, in our current climate, there's not as much support for that as well-intentioned people might want.
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Continuum theory has been condemned as well. Just this morning I read Minnie Driver's response to Matt Damon's (clumsy, if fundamentally accurate) articulation of it.
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/dec/16/minnie-driver-matt-damon-me...
It reminded me of Merry Olde England once upon a time, where crimes were (as they remain) misdemeanors and felonies, and almost all the latter punished by hanging, because, to paraphrase Alyssa Milano, "it's still a felony." (As someone who has had familiarity with cancer and its treatment, I found Milano's analogy self-contradictory: Cancers are treated individually, with a calibrated range of medical treatments, including surgery, poison [chemo], antibodies, radiation ... and even neglect when the cure is worse than the disease. It is this calibrated response that I take to be the essence of continuum theory.)
To describe being groped on the subway and being raped in a hotel room as both sexual assaults is to be technically accurate to the point of obscuring the fundamental truth: They are not nearly equivalent, and require different, resolutely negative, responses. The underlying attitude of both perpetrators may be identical even (women exist for my enjoyment), but I'll not equate the harm they do.
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"Why were human beings made sexually to endure so many complicated, confusing, awful, pleasurable, guilt-producing situations?"
Both men and women have created. endured and lived through personal matters sexual they relish, they regret. History, biology and psychology: we know male sex "drive" is driven by a different driver from that driven by most women. As complaints about men flood in, we might ask what part some women have played in "giving men ideas" about women, what they are, what they want. Not all women want the same things. As Ms. Bennett writes, sometimes confusion reigns.
We change our minds. Wish we had. I wish Al Franken would change his mind, stay in the Senate, keep doing good work for women and others, and stand up to the the political steamroller -- Just say "No" as Ms. Bennett and others wish they'd done. There are times when I wish I'd said, "No." There are times when I did. During a long eventful life, I have realized how important it is for men and women to COMMUNICATE, to risk asking questions, getting answers. Long ago, someone first asked, "What do women want?" As Ms. Bennett asks here. Well . . . there is no "one size fits all" answer. Often, swept away by the moment, words fail us. That's the way we're made. When my late friend Frank Capra made "It's a Wonderful Life," he knew it could also be less than wonderful. Ms. Bennett and "we" in the millions have survived. Not bad, given the obstacles and odds.
Doug Giebel, Big Sandy, Montana
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Well said... all of these comments so far are excellent points on such a vague and charged topic and the situations we may find ourselves in for a variety of reasons.... and not know what to do...
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I find it hard not to sympathize with men who genuinely believe they are proceeding with a mutually desired encounter, only to find out afterwards the other party felt assaulted.
Perhaps we should be teaching our girls to make affirmative decisions about their desires early in the process (i.e., not when already naked in bed), and to communicate those desires clearly.
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There are girls and women out there who do communicate their desires clearly. But there are men out there who don't take no for an answer. And women understand where the power lies so sometimes they say yes, not because they want to but because saying no can cost them their job and it's not so easy to find another job nowadays or even 30 years ago.
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Workplace harassment is a scourge and should be eliminated. But that's not what this essay is about. Both Valenti's essay and Roupenian's story are about people who meet in social contexts, not at work. I actually found the male character in the Roupenian story to be much more sympathetic than the woman, right up until the last grotesque outburst, which frankly seemed out of character for that individual as he had been written up to that point.
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While "workplace harassment" is not explicitly addressed in the article, differential power relationships permeate the atmosphere that informs sexual consent. Sex is about power, whether you choose to believe this while on a date or not. So, yes, it is entirely relevant to speak about power and how to make those relationships and norms more explicit and bound by codes that are defined by conscious choice. The guy in the short story was expressing resentment, which is part and parcel of any dominant group feeling rejected for reasons they do not understand; again, this is because those in power generally do not have to confront the realities of their power as experienced by those not in it.
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“Women have been taught, by every cultural force imaginable, that we must be ‘nice’ and ‘quiet’ and ‘polite.’ That we must protect others’ feelings before our own. That we are there for others’ pleasure,” said Rachel Simmons, the author of a number of books on girls, including a new one, “Enough as She Is.”
The above statement encapsulates the issue of sexual harassment quite well. Women are supposed to be nice, to accommodate the men or whoever is in charge (usually male), to yield to the stronger individual, to satisfy his needs regardless of what their own needs are. When I was in college a boyfriend wanted to have sex. Please, please, please was what he said. I said no because I didn't want to become pregnant. But many women don't say no and if it occurs in a working relationship where the power is with the one making the request she might just acquiesce. Not because she wants to but because she needs the job, the recommendation, whatever.
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Yes, some women "might just acquiesce." If they do and perhaps years later, accuse the man in question of sexual harassment or abuse, must we always sympathize with the one who gave in? (I'm not criticizing, I'm wondering.)
If a persistent man later realizes his insistence was not appreciated and regrets the incident (as some men surely do), WHAT MORE is one supposed to do to atone for a mistake? In the flurry of allegations, confessions and discussions, almost nothing is seriously and reasonably written about the CONSEQUENCES, the PUNISHMENT DUE.
Some women are not unhappy with having gone along to get along -- to get
"the job, the recommendation, whatever." We don't know how many in show business and other arts, how many on Wall Street have attained success at least in part because at some time they chose to go along, even if they didn't say "Yes."
And we can never know what would have happened to how many who went along rather than saying "No" if they had rejected male advances.
(Or maybe female advances?)
Over my lifetime there have been a few incidents (not all sexual in nature) that I have spent that lifetime regretting. There's no Life Do Over, and for some the burden of remorse may at times be almost incapacitating to women & men.
How much is enough? Suicide? For those like Al Franken (and many Mr. Nobodys out there) who apologize -- WHAT MORE ARE THEY REQUIRED TO DO? Should every wrong mean ruination? Yes? No? Doesn't matter?
Doug Giebel, Big Sandy, Montana
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Speak for yourself. I was never taught to ‘be nice’ and satisfy a man’s needs. On the contrary, I was taught to say no, and if not heard, to give the jerk a good, strong kick between the legs.
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