Build the wall. Make Mexico pay for it.
9
The ICE agents are simply doing their jobs, which involves enforcing the law as it currently exists. The law is concerned with jurisdictions and as federal agents, ICE has jurisdiction in all states and US territories. Federal law does not recognize sanctuary cities or states. Those being deported, as sad as breaking up families is, knew the risks and illegally entered the US anyway, getting fake social security numbers (a felony), sometimes public assistance, etc. Sworn law enforcement officers do not have the luxury of debating whether a law they must enforce is just - they simply enforce it. The bottom line is that the electorate, through their representatives, have the power to change the law. Those who don't like our current statutes or feel that they are morally unjust should work to change them. Simply complaining in the NYT comments section may make you feel better, but other than that nothing will change.
18
Preventing crime is not the goal or result of ICE courthouse arrests. They are part of the window dressing in place to keep Trump's base happy. Dig into what all is going on as donors and supporters of Trump own the private prisons contracted by ICE.
1
Enough already with this notion that our laws should be all about making sure illegals can evade law enforcement officials in as many places as possible. Go talk about things that really matter to the American public like net neutrality.
14
I’m sickened after reading many of these comments.
Unless you’re a Native American, you’re an immigrant or your forefathers and mothers were.
The horror of seeing our Democracy assaulted and decimated from every angle-every day, pales in comparison to this level of racism.
Racisists should be extricated from the United States, not hard working individuals and families who do the work many refuse to do.
Shame on you, Troglodytes.
2
It is not racism to have and enforce immigration laws. Stop that. You demean actual racism. All the Native Americans do is point out the need to enforce our immigration laws. All modern nations have immigration laws including Mexico. Get over it.
19
Completely, utterly disagree with this commentary. These people are in the country illegally and sanctuary policies are limiting ICE's ability to pick them up in a safe jail. As such, they will get arrested at home, in the community and, yes, in courthouses. Want to preserve the sanctity of the legal process? Try obeying the law and handing the illegal criminals over to ICE at the jails. Even better, try getting your illegal aliens to turn themselves in or even self-deport back home and start the albeit lengthy process of emigrating legally.
Zero sympathy for the criminals arrested at the courthouse.
24
As an associate professor of law César Cuauhtémoc García Hernández should know that anyone who has an outstanding warrant against them will be arrested once they are identified by law enforcement. Legal resident or not. Instead he wants to paint a picture that this only happens to illegals and how horrible it is for them. If they abided by the laws of these United States they wouldn't have anything to fear. Yet another example of the NYT purporting fake news.
25
What is the solution being proposed here? I understand that ICE shouldn't be hanging out at courthouses to make easy arrests, because there are higher priorities for deportation, but barring law enforcement officers from enforcing the law is a terrible precedent to set. If you endorse the casual disregard for the law, such disregard won't be confined to the laws you don't like.
18
At last, the federal government is enforcing federal law, the one that the Democrats wrote. The only problem is that they don't really want to follow any laws...except ones that suit them.
They don't want to distinguish between legal and illegal immigrants. They don't want to cooperate with federal authorities. Well, here are some very minor consequences.
17
So, a supposedly "chilling" video showing the arrest of a man on immigration charges who appeared at a courthouse in Denver for a traffic ticket. The man is yelling in Spanish. Of course he is.
Add what is the case César Cuauhtémoc García Hernández makes that such an arrest at the courthouse is a threat to our democracy? It goes like this: these arrests "scare people away from the courts," the judicial system being a "pillar of our democracy."
Well yes, the arrests by ICE would scare away those who have broken our immigration law and should not be here in the first place to get, for example, a traffic ticket. This is not a threat to our democracy. Can we arrest bank robbers at the courthouse? Yes? No? They might need to testify about something. Like a bank robbery. See, César Cuauhtémoc García Hernández, since law enforcement IS part of our judicial system, arresting people does not, cannot, undermine said system.
The problem is not that illegal immigrants are scared away from the Courthouse, the problem is that they are not scared away enough from entering the United States illegally. The failure to enforce our immigration laws is what undermines our judicial system, and our democracy.
22
Let's clear up some essential FACTS that were conveniently omitted by this young 'author' (himself son of ILLEGAL immigrants):
1) Anyone who presents at a courthouse, or government place of business with an outstanding warrant will be arrested and charged immediately. How do I know this? It happened to my Dad, back in the 80's. He forgot about paying a parking ticket, and about two years later, showed up at the courthouse to pick up licence plates for his car. As soon as he showed his I.D., they called the officers over and arrested him. It ended up being a very expensive mistake, as he had to post bail and pay a lot of fines, which continue to accrue if you do not pay the ticket. This cost him several hundred dollars and happened in the early 80's. I was living in France at the time but my family teased him about this and he was sure to never forget about a ticket again.
So, ANYONE with an outstanding warrant is apprehended and arrested at the courthouse. Stop pretending this practice is only targeted to illegal immigrants.
2) These illegals already had their taxpayer funded due process & day in court, as they all had a trial/ hearing concerning their immigration status. They received court-issued deportation orders but chose to ignore them. That's why they had outstanding warrants out for their arrest. Because they violated the law!
The intellectual dishonesty of both this author and Op-Ed itself is appalling. Opinions cannot be argued with lies.
25
Many comments on this article as well as others that involve immagration show how much of a problem this country has with White Nationalism. We used to be a nation that was great because of our diversity of people and ideas. We are rapidly become a country scorned by the world for our retrograde intelligence, unlimited greed, and xenophobia.
2
What is our national motto? Diversity is our strength, no! E. Pluribus Unum a.k.a From Many, One. When we defeated the greatest empire of the age what was the overwhelming makeup (over 90%) of our country? When we fought the Mexican-American War, Civil War, the Spanish-American War and WWI what was our makeup? What was the overwhelming ethnicity of the soldiers in all of these wars? I concede diversity is usually an asset, however America has been great since its founding and America was not very diverse at its founding. Enough with the false myths of diversity. The Statute of Liberty was a gift from France. Virtually every ethnicity who has emigrated to the U.S. has overcome obstacles. And most of them came here legally. Lastly, as for the nonsense about us becoming scorned, the respect for us in the Middle East has grown, our relationship with China is much better. The only countries that seem to have increased in Anti-American sentiment are part of Old Europe (remember Rumsfield statements) which usually lefties decry the undue influence and pandering to Western Europe. Hence, you might try some consistency in your world view.
9
ICE arrests and deports ILLEGAL immigrants, not immigrants. They are doing their jobs. The law is clear - ILLEGAL immigrants do not have the right to live in the United States.
31
The author of this opinion piece, César Cuauhtémoc García Hernández, raised & educated in the U.S. on the taxpayer dime, is here because of birthright citizenship. His parents came here as ILLEGAL immigrants.
Here’s a link, where César educates us ignorant taxpayers that borders are not really borders, but a “a series of organic communities which co-exist and depend on one another”.
* https://vimeo.com/105255491 *
Now that we have financed his ascension to a tenured academic perch, he’s actively working to upend our immigration laws, and demand sanctuary haven in courthouses for illegal immigrants (who, just to be clear, have already had their day in court and have chosen to ignore their court-issued deportation orders).
Watch the short video for yourself. And, remember, your tax dollars are financing this nonsense. That is why Trump won.
End birthright citizenship.
38
Right on...on all counts. What a pity that it took a Donald Trump (Uggh!) to tackle this.
13
There is a real big issue with this article, since when do Illegal Immigrants have rights under the Law? secondly, what is it about this newspaper and the left acting so called journalist who time and time again, ignore the Law and allow the discussion of Illegal Immigration, stop the madness and let ICE do it's job, these people are criminals to the full extend of the Law except of course when it comes to this newspaper.
22
They are given some legal rights just like visitors from foreign countries have them. If they weren't given other countries could do the same to US citizens.
Still, its important to remember that your constitutional protections do NOT follow you once you leave the country and are dealing with other governments.
6
Typical NYT one sided concern over the law while ignoring the fact that when people are here illegally and nothing is done about it they undermine the law even more.
22
The SA is in place, how long will it take for it to morph into the SS? Detention centres or concentration camps - homosexuals, minorities, immigrants: first disenfranchise, then round up. then imprison, then just kill?
Sessions at work, finally getting his dream, after 40 years of waiting in the wings, to create a white America by fair means or foul - and he has a LOT of friends. MAWA!
1
Youve got to be kidding, stop spreading this ignorant pablum, you live in Australia and you want to make judgements about how Americans protect their sovereignty? Have you or do you know how difficult it is to emigrate to Australia? Typical left wing, lost in their own propaganda. Is it an English trait to want to meddle in other countries affairs?
16
Comments like yours are profoundly insulting to actual victims of Nazism. No one is herding a mostly Mexican population into camps and murdering them. We're just mostly sending Mexicans home to Mexico. Cut it out.
5
Excuse me, even though I am personally opposed to illegal immigration anywhere, I have to say America has interfered in more countries than anywhere else on earth and created many conflicts due to their interference, Iran, Syria, just for starters. Also it is very hard to immigrate to the US legally. Weirdly most of your fellow countrymen seem to put up with illegal immigrants living, working and attending schools there.
1
The president and the Republican party are daily working to derail the rights and protections of the American people and giving the power to a very few rich old men who want the power to control everthing and everyone. We are moving to a point where there will be no peaceful turning back. Even alt-right average citizens will be pushed down, despite the "promises" of the Republican political leaders.
We already see the abrogation of the rights and privileges of citizens. What is next? Environmental protections, voting rights, protection from toxic farm and industrial chemicals, banking protections, in fact, all consumer proections, are being reversed. Congress is ignoring the wishes of the American people and planning tax cuts that will immensely benefit corporations and the rich while increasing taxes on many of the rest of us, including Trump's base. Many election districts are so gerrymandered that lawmakers who have a guaranteed seat don't feel a need to be accountable to the people, and they instead legislate to benefit their rich donors and themselves. How can we stand still for that?
All Americans need to be sure they understand what their lawmakers are proposing and supporting. We need to write to them to tell them what WE think.
Just Google their names to get their contact page, address, and phone number.
1
"We already see the abrogation of the rights and privileges of citizens."
Um, these people are not citizens. They are illegal immigrants.
11
Sigh. Omitted, of course, are the Warrants ICE arrests are under. Probably on purpose. After all, it's hard to argue arrest under Judicial Warrant undercut Democracy. So the old moral argument is trotted out. Common tactic when democracy is not producing the desired outcome.
13
Why is it now whenever someone want to criticize something they have to argue that it 'undermines democracy'?
13
Here then is today's defense of illegal aliens, flimsy in reasoning as usual. Illegal aliens who are systematically breaking our laws and disrespecting our legal system should not be arrested in courthouses because...because then they will be afraid to claim the protection of the legal system they are flouting. Got it.
Then the comments, roundly disagreeing, because not even the readers of the New York Times advocate for open borders, or think that breaking the law should confer special privileges on the lawbreakers.
Nevertheless, the NYT editorial board bangs on, day after day, mostly all alone, in their crusade to invite every unhappy person on the planet to relocate to the US illegally to take advantage of our public education and medical care, and to break the law with impunity.
34
Nobody would come here for your public education or medical care!
Yes, Jesper Bernoe of Denmark. Yes they do.
It's a great place to give birth too. Instant citizenship!
9
Then why do they come here? For the fruits on our trees they can pick? This dude who wrote this cockamamie tearjerker is an anchor-baby who is the beneficiary of our public education and our medical care, if you have coverage, is second to none.
11
all of us (citizens and legal immigrants) suffer if the fear of ICE keeps people away.
---------------------------------------
You do not make sense. If you are legally present in this country or a citizen of this country, why would you fear ICE?
Just to think that a college lecturer in law wrote this nonsense is even more aggravating.
Have you no shame or standards, the Times?
22
In other words, ICE should have no power to enforce the laws of the United States, even though that's the reason the agency was created.
24
Subverting the rule of law has resulted in undermining overall quality of life in most countries these illegals come from in the first place...planting to seeds of same problem here.
18
It is said that Mexicans love little children and are family-oriented. It is also said that Mexican men are “macho". Being “macho", Mexican men suffer through pain with out complaining. Many also boss around their wives and girlfriends, and think nothing of hitting them. This is part of the culture, especially the culture of most of the undocumented migrants who hail from rural Mexico.
Our government foolishly decided to award a green card to any undocumented migrant who alleges that her domestic partner (whether or not she is married to this man) has hit her, and who “helps" the police with the investigation. Green cards are also given to the woman’s children, even to ones who have not been living here.
Since being “macho” is woven into their culture, tens of thousands of undocumented women and their children have already received green cards this way, and more are applying all of the time.
As a social worker, I have seen many abused women enter one relationship after another with “macho” men, all of whom abuse them. It is a cultural pattern that is hard, if not impossible, to break.
What is inexplicable is that the Obama Administration gave green cards to women who alleged abuse, but it did not consider domestic abuse to be a serious enough crime to have had the abuser deported. I wonder how many of the previously undocumented women, who received green cards for alleging abuse, are still living with the men who were to have abused them.
21
I'm glad so many commentators on here support full enforcement of the law. And, to be consistent, I'm sure they all agree that many of Trumps appointees should be in jail right now for filing false disclosure forms, false security forms and lying under oath. I'm also sure, to be consistent, that they feel that Trump himself should be in jail for incitement and threatening "second amendment remedies" for his political opponent. Unless, of course, they are duplicitous hypocrites who only believe in enforcement of "certain laws" for "certain types" of individuals. No, I'm sure that is not the case.
4
Fine by me...as long as Bill, Hillary, Obama, Loretta Lynch, Comey, and a whole host of other people who broke the law are also issued their orange jumpsuits. As you pointed out, let’s be consistent.
10
I'll agree to jail every one of them as long as every Democrat who has violated the law (i.e. IRS, Fast and Furious, funding from Ukraine) are jailed right away. After all, we are not supposed to let a good crisis be wasted, correct?
5
Many commenters call illegal immigrants "criminals". Illegal presence is a non-criminal civil violation. That fact is used to deny lawyers in immigration court even to kids, and to deny accused illegal immigrants every other protection due criminal defendants. So don't now turn around and say these are criminals.
1
That they do not CHARGE them with a criminal violation does not mean they have not committed one. Criminal laws require aliens to register, to enter the US only at a port of entry, and not to overstay visas.
9
What you say is true of, for instance, those who have overstayed their visa's, but anyone who crossed the border in violation of our immigration laws, has committed a crime, and are therefore criminals. You're splitting hairs.
6
Any attempt by State officers to interfere with Federal officers will result in more arrests of those State officers. No courthouse protects criminals from arrests and nor should they protect illegal aliens from arrest.
13
I also have a big problem with ICE arresting illegal aliens on the steps of a couthouse. Those here illegally should be DEPORTED MUCH FASTER and with much less fanfare that costs taxpayers (yes remember those people who are paying for this absurd theater?).
Get those here illegally out NOW!
20
The buses should be warmed up and continuously running 24/7 transporting them back south of the border.
7
Continuous incursions by unauthorized foreign nationals undercut the territorial integrity of our country, the rule of law within our communities and the ability of workers to negotiate for fair wages.
20
Absolutely. If someone is in the the country illegally they should be thrown out. Who cares where they are apprehended?
The left-wing knashing-of-teeth is one of the reasons Trump got elected.
19
If anyone's doing any gnashing about immigration, it's Trump and his fans. Have you not been paying attention to the attempts to prevent Muslims from entering the country ?
72% of Americans want to change the law, not deport en masse. See here:
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/08/24/what-americans-want-to-d...
What happens if someone suspected of burglary shows up at a courthouse for a traffic ticket, a child support case, a domestic violence order, or any other issue? Would he be arrested?
I don't know the answer to that question, but I would hope that whatever the answer is, that it is applied consistently. If suspects and fugitives are arrested, then illegal aliens who are not under a protective order, should also be detained. And if not, then they probably should not be.
In either case, the policy should be clear and enforced consistently.
12
It is difficult to prosecute employers of knowingly hiring unauthorized immigrants because they claim the unauthorized immigrants presented documents that showed they were U.S. citizens. This is why we should make E-Verify mandatory nationwide. The E-Verify system leave employers with no excuse for hiring illegal immigrants.
4
Yes, anyone would be arrested on the spot if a warrant had been issued. It happened to my Dad for a forgotten parking ticket he neglected to pay! This was over 35 years ago. These illegals are arrested by ICE because they have ignored their court-issued deportation orders!
This article is nothing more than truth-bending political activism (otherwise known as illegal immigrant propaganda).
8
Of all the many things that are currently undercutting our democracy, this is one I care least about.
7
Do ICE agents determine where these illegal immigrants may have been working, and then go after the people who had been employing them? After all, those employers are accomplices in the illegal immigration game.
5
A little off-topic, but the question is good. This is frequently asked but there are no answers or follow-up that I've seen in the NYT.
I dispute the premise of this article.
If "ICE('s) Courthouse Arrests Undercut Democracy, do all other warrant enforcements of other laws on litigants at the courthouse do the same?
If that is not true, what exactly entitles an undocumented alien of any foreign nationality an exception where ICE is involved, if we think beyond our emotions? When we seek to impose our own notions of what laws are to be enforced and those to be ignored, in a real sense we are creating impossible extra legal exceptions to the rule of law, and undermining the Constitution, itself.
The more difficult question is caught up in determining exactly where a protectable, superior right incurs to an alien between the time border is illegally crossed and when the alien has been a responsible member of our society for years. Especially in cases where the alien is actually solicited by farms, businesses and individuals to break our border laws for our hypocritical, self serving purposes.
Until the "law" is enforced equally, punishing the abettor along with the alien, we are in "deplorable" territory.
In days of Trump, however, the issue of immigration enforcement is distorted by a substituted race baited, white supremacist rationale, invoked by a pernicious politic. In essence it makes a mockery of the rule of law that it hides behind.
At the same time, those who would themselves convolute immigration laws by assigning open ended rights are culpable as well.
5
Only the Times could call "enforcing the law" a break with tradition. In the 60's, Teddy Kennedy read the lea leaves and (rightly) deduced that his party was finished unless he could import a new wave of subservient voters. The Reagan Amnesty was proof of the Americans people's generosity. We're not going to do it again.
24
This is all on Teddy and his open door immigration policy. This will be forever known as one of his legacies.
4
"ICE's Courthouse Arrests Undercut Democracy"? Wow that is a stretch. He had to put himself into a full pretzel to make this spin.
15
Cannot buy this inane argument. Does the writer know that an American citizen can be arrested in a courthouse? Why should “immigrants” (interpreted to be people here Illegally) be an exception. Sir, American citizens are sick and tired of people coming to this country to illegally take a job, use our health system, place their children in our schools and on and on. Sadly, they should have some fear. They are intruders in this country!
16
The courthouse arrests remove dangerous aliens from the United States. The El Paso woman the article says ICE arrested “moments after she requested a court’s help keeping away an abusive partner” was a transgender woman named Irvin Gonzalez Torres. Gonzales had been previously deported six times since 2010, each times after being arrested for various crimes, including assault. After being arresedt last year outside the El Paso courthouse, Gonzales pleaded guilty to one count of re-entry of a deported alien in federal court and was sentenced to time served. However, in September Gonzales was convicted of fraud and theft of property and sentenced to nine years in prison. Gonzalez and her partner stole mail from blue U.S. Postal Service drop-off boxes. They washed money orders to remove the pay-to-the-order names and wrote in their own names. (As part of a plea agreement, 240 additional charges of forgery of financial instruments against Gonzales were dismissed.) Gonzalez will be deported once she completes his prison sentence. Meanwhile, Gonzalez will be safe behind bars from her abusive partner.
http://www.elpasotimes.com/story/news/crime/2017/09/06/transgender-woman...
22
If you could not tell an immigrant from ILLEGAL ALIEN, then you were not qualified to go to law school, much less teach law. If you took the LSAT, at least 51 questions in 2 scored Logical Reasoning sections test your ability to do so. How did you get to be an associate professor of law? You are everything that is wrong with our admission and our education system.
Enough said.
17
Come to Dallas where Asian Americans, Indian Americans, Naturalized citizens and legal residents still feel like foreigners, and act like the "inferior other"...even in 2017. They never say with confidence and clarity "I am an American", or "Chinese American" or "an American of Vietnamese ethnicity".
The swallow five times, look down, or smile in a placating way at Anglos or become chronic White-Pleasers. These Anglo-pleasers are over confident and cocky with their own women or other minorities.
And lot of Whites, including White women, act like they own everything and everybody...And with guns it is amazing what kind of arrogance, cruelty and injustice they get away with. Some love their foreign women, colored women and non White women doing their hair, their feet and the service work...but they just don't like their personhood, their culture, their rights, their equality and them in power. They certainly don't like assertive smart outspoken women like me...This in Dallas...a city!!!
I speak up and do confront many of these people. But who supports and defends me in the right way...even when I am fighting for "their" knowledge and justice? Most of the time we non Whites in these places are forced to walk in fear of the Anglo tribe, their spies and exploiters. It appears they want to trap you so they can control, hurt you and harm you. Are other places like this?
I am going to write a book on this. Who wants to fund me?
2
Non-Hispanic whites makeup only 28.8 percent of the Dallas population, which is overwhelmingly black and Hispanic. ExhaustedFightingForJusticeEveryDay is an paranoid anti-white racist who labels all whites except himself or herself as "spies and exploiters."
12
No context at all.
2
I see we're being lectured about how liberals violate something impressively titled the "National Will."
My German's a little rusty, as it's been a spell since grad school: can anybody provide a nice translation? There's got to be a one-word German noun for, "National Will," just as there is for "Leader."
3
So if youre so concerned, Help pass immigration reform. these are still ILLEGAL aliens.. I dont care what the NYT political correct vernacular is today. We have a process, the train comes off the track when these people decided to break the law and come here illegally..
19
When ICE executes a warrant against an undocumented person who is party to a suit or criminal complaint in a courthouse, is that not de facto a denial of due process where the underlying court has already accepted jurisdiction?
Not being familiar with the interplay between Federal and State interests it would seem that the ICE apprehension does not end the matter in the absence of federal preemption.
In both cases, however, both the State and Federal Courts are obliged to carry out the law by the exercise, if not enforce, due process by obliging the alleged defendant to participate in it.
I find myself conflicted by the notion that illegal immigration entitles the offender to assert a right that is superior to the law. A notion that spins the concept of due process on its head, as well as nullify the rule of law itself.
However, where the Government has failed, for years, to enforce immigration laws, resulting in long standing employment, building a family, educating children, obeying the law, there is every case to made that the law in cases as these, is an ass, if strictly enforced.
That said, we cannot sustain an equivalency of duality where the undocumented have superior rights than any other person subjected to the law. The matter screams for a comprehensive immigration reform that both respects indisputable human exceptions while enforcing control over the security of our borders.
4
No. Arrested witnesses can still testify in criminal cases and civil lawsuits. Police routinely bring prisoners to court from jail cells for the purpose of testifying.
6
I want to see some job site arrests. Let’s see ice arrest construction company owners or flower store owners or landscaping companies or even better, farmers. Let’s start locking up farmers hiring illegals. Pigs will be flying before trump locks up business owners exploiting vulnerable and desperate immigrants. Oh wait, that was trumps dating playbook.
5
I hate to tell you, but most employers hiring illegal workers are breaking no laws. You can audit them and they will pass. All they are required to do is look at a Social Security card (the illegal worker will have a forged one as good as yours) and have the prospective employee complete an I-9 form (which the the illegal worker cheerfully perjures him/herself to complete). That's it.
eVerify is a completely voluntary program except in a few states -- RED states -- where it is required. Interestingly, the "Progressive" states are preventing any crack down on employers. They have done away with any mandatory eVerify and prohibited, in the case of California, outright prohibited, making its use mandatory. Here is the state by state status of where eVerify is mandatory:
https://www.lawlogix.com/e-verify-map/
10
Except in the few states that have made E-Verify mandatory, it is difficult to prosecute employers for knowingly hiring illegal immigrants. The employers testify that the illegal immigrant presented false documents that showed they were citizens. This is why we should make E-Verify mandatory nationwide. It eliminates the excuse
6
I have been told by employers that their lawyers counsel them not to inquire, not to do any checks beyond what is required by law. The fear is that they will be sued for discrimination. "Mr. Employer, you were presented with all required documents. Just why did you choose to inquire further? Was it because the person appeared to be Hispanic? Hmmm?"
So, yes indeed. This is why we need mandatory eVerify.
3
illegals should be arrested and deported wherever they are
15
How about the blue collar companies that hire illegals? Why are cowardly ICE agents locking up children and families but are afraid to lock up their blue collar friends and neighbors? Should we be locking up business owners? Why do they get a pass when they are violating more laws than an immigrant in many cases. They are violating federal verification standards, they are defrauding state, local and federal out of taxes, they encourage risk taking and more. The answer is simple, of course, it's racism. We are afraid of brown skinned people and Trump the terrorist exploits this.
1
Perhaps the Professor can tell us about the dangerous criminals being arrested at courthouses, like the four Mexican nationals, members of the Niños Malos street gang, arrested by ICE outside of a courthouse in Brooklyn NY last September. Or maybe Cesar can ask the family of Kate Steinle if Jose Inez Garcia Zarate – who is on trial for her murder - should have been arrested and deported by ICE (for the sixth time!) when he was in court before Kate was killed.
And you would think that a Professor of Law should be able to cite the legal statue that makes people attending court immune from the enforcement of any law, much less immigration law (hint- there isn't one).
Non-enforcement of the law at a courthouse being condoned by a law professor. How ironic.
23
That a significant number of people oppose law enforcement agents enforcing the law by making arrests at a courthouse illustrates the insanity of America's looney Left.
18
Maybe this is - you know - what happens when you hide behind the idea of "Sanctuary Cities". Just Sayin'...
15
I was generally in agreement until I read, "arresting undocumented immigrants, the vast majority of whom pose no risk to public safety, are neither safe nor fair.”
8
A "sanctuary city" that is unwilling to uphold the rule of law does more damage to democracy.
21
Not even “show us your papers.” Just a waste of taxpayer money.
In Multnomah County Circuit Court, Portland, Oregon, three ICE agents wearing jeans, zip-up jackets and baseball caps would not identify themselves to their target or his attorney in the hallway outside a courtroom. His attorney told them his client would cooperate with them.
When asked by a reporter with The Oregonian/OregonLive if they were immigration agents, the men declined to identify themselves, but referred all questions to an ICE public information officer who said that she wasn't at liberty to answer questions about the men. The men watched the suspected illegal immigrant for at least 45 minutes and didn't speak directly to him. Rather, they stood near him in silence as he waited several times for them to arrest him.
At one point in the courthouse hall, a defense attorney asked if they planned to arrest him, and one of them said no. The attorney asked if the suspect was free to go, and one of them said yes. But the men followed the suspect and the defense attorney through the streets of downtown Portland and back to his lawyer's office, sometimes watching from the alcoves of buildings or from behind columns.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2017/01/men_wont_say_theyre...
1
Judges in Connecticut have complained? They use the exact same tactic to arrest and jail parents for no crime and for civil matters who appear in their "family" courthouses.
9
if "ICE's Courthouse Arrests Undercut Democracy", then don't ICE's non-arrests undercut the rule of law ?... what clearly separates us from the chaos "out there" (Venezuela, N. Korea, Russia, Zimbabwe, to name just a few) is that we have a set of laws enacted by elected officials and enforced by the agencies whose job it is to apply them equally and fairly, without appeals to emotionalism or favoritism... so if you don't like the law(s), then fine, change them
11
By the author's standards, court buildings, a place of law, are to ignore criminal acts to become a safe zone. So the illegal M13 gang member who murdered an American while selling crack, but is there to pay a traffic ticket, he has sanctuary from arrest by ICE and others?
Absolutely no.
13
Don't just blame Sessions for such actions. Trump's Chief of Staff Kelly, so called "Adult Voice of Reason in out of control Trump administration, was at the helm of Homeland Security when these actions first began.
1
The attacks on immigrants from Mexico are simply racism and nothing more. Law and order is a slogan - nobody cares about law and order in this country. Laws are enforced against specific groups to oppress them and to make them scapegoats. Law and order? Obey Supreme Court decisions only when you agree with them. Molesting or harassing underage girls is now OK for the President and Senators. And everyone drives the speed limit, stops at every stop sign, reports cash income on their taxes and never puts their property on VRBO without a permit. And all the immigrants here are hired by a business owner who pays them cash under the table. Why doesn't ICE go to the country club and arrest all the business owners who pay the immigrant labor force?
1
It is precisely because states and cities have refused to cooperate with the federal government in enforcing immigration law - something the Times piece appears to ignore altogether - that ICE is forced to make courthouse arrests. Illegal aliens do not have the right to be in the country, either in court or not, and eventually, everyone pays the piper.
16
I have a lot of sympathy for the illegal immigrants I know and I hope they can stay out of trouble and make a life here.
It is way past time that we have some immigration reform. Big Ag corporations hire illegals and while I don't think they mistreat their employees (like shorting their paychecks), they are just fine with the immigration laws as they are now as they have a compliant and fearful workforce.
We need to deport anyone convicted of a felony. But, most people just want to work here and live a quiet life without all the crime and danger present in their home country. The immigration system we have now favors those from the middle east and north Africa, and disfavors those from the Americas.
1
Undermining democracy is the point of the Trump Administration.
1
Why does the writer think that obeying the law undercuts democracy?
10
Obey our laws, or change our laws. This should be the focus of all discussion.
11
As ICE has repeatedly said, they would prefer not to arrest people at courthouses. But, if sanctuary cities are going to protect illegal "immigrants", and prevent the logical transfer to them of folks getting released from jail, they will clearly prefer to arrest people at courthouses where there is some assurance the person being sought won't be armed.
End Sanctuaries. Work out the cooperation of state and local police in the interior enforcement of our immigration laws. Prosecute sanctuary city politicians for "Harboring", "Conspiracy/Aiding or Abetting", and "Inducing illegal residency".
https://www.justice.gov/usam/criminal-resource-manual-1907-title-8-usc-1...
12
The court system is not available to criminals. I learned that by watching Breaking Bad. It is pretty obvious. So yes, we are creating a subclass of people who do not have access to the court system, blah, blah, blah. They are criminals.
7
Yes- I agree with those here who say this reminds them of a gestapo/police state. Simple minds would argue we are not there yet. But wise minds of discernment know that the destruction of freedom is a slow, fitful encroachment. That the denial of one group's basic human rights- is a necessary prelude to the loss of rights for all.
The modern euphemism for this is the "boiling frog effect." So welcome to the new world- my fellow frogs. And with so many species of frogs facing extinction throughout the world- the metaphor more apt than originally thought.
1
You know what really undercuts democracy? Decades of bi-partisan elite failure to enforce our immigration laws -- despite consistent, overwhelming support for enforcing those laws by the American people.
16
Illegal immigrants have broken the law by entering without permission, and as such they have committed a civil offence. A civil offence is different from from crimes under the jurisdiction of criminal court. Many prosecutors treat illegal immigrants as criminals and this is well known. Many judges disagree with that view and consider illegal immigrants not as criminals.
It is a different story when illegal immigrants once here commit actual crimes. But many who entered illegally are not criminals and have no record in criminal court.
oz.
2
The corporate oligarchy in this country knows that illegal immigration is a cost-savings. Trump is pandering to his base whichis chiefly that oligarchy, not the white lower middle class. His fealty is his corporate masters. We are missing the root of the problem. Illegal immigrants will be toyed with by ICE to give the appearance of fealty to the rule of law.
1
Let us suppose for a minute that I had decided to overstay my visa and go underground in the Netherlands, a country I often visit. (Family there.) It would certainly occur to me, early on in this process, that if I expected not to get caught I should stay well away from Dutch officialdom, which would include not only law enforcement but certainly the courts. Courts are all about the rule of law. People who are breaking the law and who have not yet been apprehended, if they have any sense at all, will stay entirely away from the justice system.
Surely it would be most unrealistic of me to expect the Dutch legal system, which I would be in the systematic process of disrespecting, would intervene to save me from domestic abuse or other wrongs.
"In Denver, the city prosecutor gave up on four domestic violence cases because the victims said they were too afraid of ICE to appear in court." Well yes, I should think so. That's exactly what I would do in that situation, wouldn't you? The remedy, if this is an injustice of some kind, would be for me to return to a country where I have the legal right to reside.
9
ICE officers should be videotaped making arrests. If an ICE officer refuses to show the arrest warrant or show probable cause, the defense should use those facts, and that video, to claim that the defendant's Fourth Amendment rights have been violated.
1
"Such arrests scare people away from the courts, keeping them, for example, from testifying at trials or seeking orders of protection."
This is such a canard. The person in question here is here illegally, and in nearly all cases (ex DACA) they are here illegally by choice.
If you are here illegally, you are not entitled to the full benefits (welfare, health services, legal protections) that would be accorded somebody here legally.
We can certainly have and should have a national discussion about what the right amount and construct of legal immigration is. But if you offer the same level of benefits to those here illegally, you will continue to encourage people to come here illegally.
Let's expand legal immigration and kill the back door policies we've had for so long.
10
I have practiced law for 20 years and courts routinely arrest parties and witnesses with pending warrants.
16
This Courthouse argument is bogus; no place in America should be a "sanctuary" from the applicability of federal law. What the article does illustrate is the total absurdity of having 10 million people living outside the law in the US for a decade or more. Whether 10 million Americans can't go to Court, school or a hospital because they are subject to arrest and deportation is completely awful- the precise place of arrest is largely irrelevant. We desperately need legislation to provide a path to citizenship for all undocumented persons here for longer than 7 years (i.e., those with whom we have an essential "common law marriage") and a plan to deport the recently arrived who are here illegally. Then we need secure borders, even though that's advocated by the horrible Trumpster (it's still essential).
4
Cruciform makes some well thought out arguments and articulates them precisely. Mr. Trump with Sessions as his head of the DOJ and his unchecked control of the FCC and Net Neutrality issues have me scared to death. As a naturalized citizen I can not help but fear for my future in this country. What might they do next?
Hmmm. Such arrests can only happen when the person being arrested has evaded the normal means of making the arrest. Sounds like this approach is more of a work-around for a fundamentally dysfunctional system, in a lawful society we would presumably hope to arrest offenders promptly. While it is good that we are attempting to clean house, hopefully such efforts will succeed at removing root causes and not simply continue to depend upon work-arounds.
1
So we abandon the principle of due process and go down that slippery slope. Perhaps it will come to the point were these people should wear a physical symbol so they can be easily identified. It will make it easier to round them up to take them to the train station.
1
Another opinion piece that tries to blur the line between legal and illegal immigrants.
"ICE should no longer get free rein to tackle, handcuff and haul away immigrants"
Yes, they shouldn't and they don't.They are arresting illegal immigrants with an outstanding warrant.
If you brake the law to come to a country you resign yourself to living in the shadows. You knew that when you broke the law.
I don't get the bleeding heart angle here. These people already broke the law by entering the country illegally. Then they broke the law again, and I'm supposed to feel sorry for them when they get deported? That's pretty ridiculous.
"Courthouse arrests by ICE deter not only undocumented immigrants but also people who are here legally but are nervous that they might have somehow compromised their status (or that an officer will think they have)."
That doesn't make any sense unless you broke the law by committing a crime that might jeopardize your status.
"arrests at courthouses don’t just derail the lives of the unsuspecting people who are detained, they threaten the very operation of our judicial system"
Really? Enforcing the law threatens you?
It seems like the opposite, not enforcing the law, should threaten everybody that respects the rule of law.
I don't think looking the other way and undermining the rule of law with 'convenient pick and choose law enforcement' is the answer.
There needs to be a better solution.
Don't like a law?
Work to change it.
Legally.
10
They are here in violation of the law. They should not be exempt from apprehension or arrest anywhere in the United States. If they want to avoid arrest by US officers, they can leave the country.
10
I see a lot of comments saying hooray arrest and deport these illegal immigrants get them out they are breaking our laws. When there are food shortages because there aren’t enough workers to bring in the harvest let’s have them in the fields first. When restaurants have to raise their prices because they will have to eventually pay Americans a lot to work there they will complain it’s to costly to eat out. Who will be maids, janitors, construction workers all the menial tasks Americans don’t want to donor consider beneath them to do. Of course businesses will have to pay more to get Americans to do those jobs. I say to you who are cheering where is your compassion, we are a nation built on immigrants they’ve been cheated for years by the people that hire them and then don’t pay them. Landlords who take advantage of them because of their status to charge them more or evict illegally knowingly they can’t do anything. To those cheering when Republicans are done with illegal immigrants I hope you aren’t in the next class of people the Republicans decide are worthless because who will stand up for you. We all need to remember the lessons learned from Germany turning a blind eye only leads to more suffering not less and more people being arrested and detained. We as Americans used to stand for something to those cheering we will remember we won’t forget or forgive.
2
In Denver, the city prosecutor gave up on four domestic violence cases because the victims said they were too afraid of ICE to appear in court.
How many illegal migrants have received green cards for themselves and for their children by claiming to have been abused?
Tens of thousands of undocumented migrants who illegally slipped into the country or who overstayed their temporary visas, have been given lawful permanent residency status for both themselves and their children by claiming that their domestic partner abused them, and by being “helpful” in the abuse investigation.
This has become a ruse for getting green cards.
10
It wouldn't matter if they were arresting illegals or arresting people who failed to pay child support. An arrest is an arrest and it will happen where and when they find the suspect. Let them do their job they are paid to do.
20
This is sick. Where are the adults and why would ANYONE be okay with a government agency carrying out illegal kidnappings. If you wait for people to come to the courthouse where they are trying to follow the law, only to treat them like a sub human class, no one is going to respect you.
1
It is not kidnapping to arrest someone for whom a warrant has been issued. It is also not illegal. The only illegal thing here is the presence of these immigrants in the country.
14
While many of us may agree that people should migrate to the United States lawfully (as they say), let's not ignore that the Immigration Police Force (as they should be called) is a largely extra-legal entity working outside the normal Federal and State policing forces. It reports to the head of Homeland Security. The organization has over 20,000 employees and the Trump administration wants to increase that by another 10,000. ICE is the second-largest criminal investigative agency in the U.S. government after the FBI.
When a force this large is allowed to act independent of normal policing strictures, we open the gate to extra-legal activity.
1
ICE is part of the Department of Homeland Security, a cabinet that falls under the Executive Branch, similar to Justice. All law enforcement in the Constituion is under the Executive Branch, and the legality of its actions subject to the Judiciary Branch. How exactly does this make it 'extra legal'?
13
"is a largely extra-legal entity working outside the normal Federal and State policing forces ... independent of normal policing strictures, we open the gate to extra-legal activity."
Assumes facts not in evidence.
4
The people arrested have committed crimes that resulted in warrants for their arrest. That means they are subject to arrest at any public location. If they turned themselves in or if local law enforcement cooperated with ICE these arrests could be done a lot more conveniently and less publicly. Arresting them at home or work is fraught with even more risk.
14
If they are going to court, they obviously have intent to cooperate with the law in addressing whatever situation. Being accousted by ICE at the door is a travesty of justice.
2
In the early 1920s, the U.S. Attorney General of the day ordered massive roundups of trade unionists, suspected communists, people of German descent and anyone considered part of a "radical" or socialist group; whether proven or not. There were deportations of many who were not, yet, American citizens even though they may have entered the country legally. A segment of the population cheered while the majority were stunned by these autocratic measure.
Today, we have Trump who is acting as head of all three branches of government and bulldozes any efforts by those who respect the separation of these branches. In short, the Supreme Leader speaks and enforcement agencies act. The key difference is that they can, now, act with impunity and little incentive to regard the rule of law. Once again, a segment of the populations cheers while the majority worries where this will go.
1
Jacob K: You refer, I think, to the Palmer raids, which were in 1919-20, under Democratic president Wilson. They had very widespread support, that is why the Three Percent Act, restricting immigration, was passed in 1921.
So too do immigration actions against illegals have wide support.
7
Cesar's argument is specious, at best. First the individuals he refers to are in the country illegally and are subject to the law of the land. Second, would the court shield a spouse who appeared for a protection hearing, but who also had an outstanding DUI warrant? And finally, the real problem here is arrests have been moved from the jailhouse to the courthouse, due to the illiberal decisions of local politicians.
14
What are you talking about? Just because you are in the USA without documentation does not mean you have no rights to seek justice if you feel your rights have been in criminal or harmful way.
Your second example is really a rehashing of your first. Since you have broken the law (DUI) you have no right to seek out protection from the courts.
Your third point just mystifies.
So if an American is a drug dealer or car thief with outstanding warrants, is it out of limits to arrest her when she goes to court on a domestic dispute of for driving without a license, should he/she get immunity from arrest also?
Or does the NYT advocates for these special protections and immunities only for illegal immigrants?
What are the classes of people that the NYT is proposing to have immunity from arrest in our courts?
20
"What are the classes of people that the NYT is proposing to have immunity from arrest in our courts?"
Judging by the Risen matter, first and foremost seems to be "reporters".
2
I ask you Mr. Hernandez, what would happen to anyone who overstayed their time in Mexico? Or many other countries of the world? Why should the US be the exception to these laws?
Also many Americans are arrested in court houses every day in this country.
Why should illegal aliens be treated any differently or with kid gloves?
25
Sanctuary cities undercut the law and Democracy.
24
No they don't; they arrest and detain illegal immigrant lawbreakers.
17
I wonder what methods/tactics the author of this opinion piece suggest that ICE use in their mandate to secure the nations borders and hold unauthorized foreign nationals accountable? Why should illegal migrants feel safe anywhere in a sovereign nation whose laws they spit on?
20
During the election, then candidate Trump said that he would order the ICE to locate and deport violent criminals who were here illegally (which happened to be exactly the policy that the Obama administration pursued)... however, once he was elected Trump ordered ICE to go after the "soft" targets instead (ie- "dreamers", mothers being treated at the hospital, people paying parking fines, etc.). Apparently going after the actual violent criminals is too hard work.
1
@James Constantino
Yes, going after soft targets indicates that ICE agents are lazy as well as cruel.
1
This has been going on forever, nothing new here except linking the Trump administration in order to get more play for your story on the left. If you wan to end this - work with your representatives to find a compromise immigration bill. Open borders and pretend citizenship for those here illegally is not going to cut it any more.
14
Most of the articles about ICE arrests have to do with Hispanics. There is illegal immigration from other countries which should also be addressed, smuggled people trapped in sweat shops and brothels. I agree with this writer that it's time to do something.
We are the last country in the world that allows birthright citizenship. Abolish this aspect of the 14th amendment and end the "separation of families" that we all abhor. This is no longer a left-right wing issue, although most of the articles I read here lean toward sympathy for anyone who is detained, no matter the type of infraction. ICE is not the enemy. It is our lazy, apathetic government that for years has refused to establish and enforce clear laws about immigration. All immigrants are waiting and hoping for another amnesty. It didn't work so well with Reagan's, simply encouraged more people to slip in or overstay visas. A wall won't do it, either. Write those letters and demand action from Washington.
Is this writer Mr. Hernandez suggesting that there be a two-tiered justice system? One for Americans and another for illegal aliens?
U.S. citizens are arrested daily within courthouses throughout our country.
Can't have it both ways here. What makes illegals more special?
22
If you are here legally, you have no reason to fear courthouses.
15
Too soon you forget Maricopa County's sheriff and racial profiling.
1
It is not Nazi Germany to send people back to the country they came from.
16
Another Republican corporate end around. As a sheriff’s deputy. Every year we would get a 4 am call from the Sergeant; we’re needed for a “Special Assignment” that morning. Veteran cops knew it meant INS was in town. “Mexican Roundup.” INS arrive at 2 am after a 5-hour drive from LA hide their green vehicles in the Fire Station so no illegals might see them and warn others.
At 6 am we split up with INS Agents and raid local laundries, restaurants or business that hire illegals. Business owner stood by as we chased the few that would try running. Rookie cops were told not to shoot runners as they’re running for their coats or jackets, they had their ‘return money’ sewed into the linings. Others raided the homes where wives and children were hidden.
Transport them to the fire station for processing; loaded on buses for the trip to the Mexican border. Within a week the first of them were returning. Back to work at the restaurants and laundries, wives back to maid work, kids back to school. The local Post Master watching them come in again to mail money orders to relatives in Mexico.
It was all just a game. Farmers and business want this cheap labor pool. President Obama's Immigration Bill was blocked by the Republicans because it required employers to be sure their employees were legal. Something Corporate and Business American do not want to do. They want – and need – these people to do the work Americans won't at wages they wouldn’t accept.
5
There is no country that accepts that someone can roll into their country and set up life....SO if you're here illegally, you're here illegally..Easy to understand..
SO it can take 20 years to get in the US illegally if you're starting from scratch, (no relatives here..no sponsors, etc)
Seems to me that if you want immigration legally, figure a way to speed up the immigration process..If you don't care..expect the illegal immigration to increase.. It took my family, one by one (father, brother, sister mother, me) 11 years to lay a hand on that all precious US PASSPORT..and we ain't looking over our shoulders..we're American, lock stock and barrell
12
There is no way to speed up the process because we cap immigration (at a very high amount) and the delay is simply because there are so many applicants. If the process was sped up by increasing the number of immigrants allowed it likely wouldn't be long until the delay was nearly to the same point it currently is as news of how quick immigration to the US had become spread. The simple fact is that there are probably over a billion people that would love to come to the US if they could do so quickly and easily and we don't need that many people plus it would be a disaster for the climate if we did accept them.
3
This is nothing new with Immigration. Years ago a Border Patrol supervisor was infamous even among the BP for stopping a car full of illegal aliens traveling in the funeral procession of a central California rancher.
His nickname was "Certified" Smith as he had been required at one time to be evaluated for duty and having passed that psychological evaluation, he was considered as certified sane - and he didn't hesitate to brag about being the only one in his office certified as such!
With well over 12 million undocumented immigrants living and working in the USA, claims that ICE is being too harsh in the enforcement of US immigration laws – at courthouses or anywhere else - is laughable.
26
Um...so? Illegal aliens should be afraid that they will be deported. It should hang over their heads until they either get right with the law or leave the US. ICE should not let schools or churches be sanctuaries for those violating our immigration laws. Breaking the law has consequences and penalties, be it deportation, arrest, or being afraid to engage with the civic machinery. Too bad.
19
What a load of bunk. Courthouses are not safe spaces for criminals. Once you're inside a courthouse you're one step away from jail, and you should know that. It's unpleasant, and not meant to be otherwise, which is one reason lots of people don't show up. Then a bench warrant is issued for their arrest. Cops have long trolled courthouses and their parking lots for criminals hoping to take care of a traffic ticket, but your tears were noticeably absent until now. Here's an idea: don't do the crime, which is immigrate here illegally.
29
"don't do the crime, which is immigrate here illegally" -- it's not a crime, it's a civil violation. This fact is used to deny lawyers in immigration court even to children, and deny tons of other protections afforded criminal defendants. Can't then turn around and treat it as crime.
1
What a racket. Truck em in when times are hard, kick em out when times are better.
And they don't even get one of those Steven Mnuchin brand gold watches.
3
Unfortunately, Mr. Hernández, ICE's ambushes of unsuspecting citizens at the courthouses are merely another Trump Administration Wall. The intimidation is intentional and direct. It is meant to threaten and to coerce. The objects of these arrests are of Hispanic origin and is clearly the rationale for the ICE traps.
It's bad enough that these entrapments drive people to avoid showing up for court for a lawful summons, but the worst element of this bait-and-switch is that the tactic undermines every citizen's expectation that the courtroom is the final place of arbitration. Win or lose, an appeal is always an option. When someone is hauled away in cuffs or bum-rushed into a squad car, ordinary citizens who witness this scripted and deliberate violence bleed away respect for and confidence in the law.
If someone is in the United States illegally and they are found out through the lawful processes of investigation and research, there is a more humane and less humiliating way to make a lawful arrest than to stage Nazi-type re-enactments of absolute power on the stairs of a courthouse in full view of children, many of whom are there to accompany relatives who cannot afford child care.
Donald Trump, a failure though he is at most everything, has been a glowing success in a single area: "keep them out;" and "build a wall." That his AG Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III, the administration's inquisitor, is both racist and regressive, aids Trump' evil cause.
It's fascism. Period.
5
Thank you for your excellent response.
1
I support ICE in detaining and removing the undocumented. Sanctuary citiies make us all less safe.
29
As the song goes, "You've got to be taught to be afraid
of people who are of a different shade"...
1
Every minute an ICE agent spends looking for a minor traffic offender or an unbocumented person seeking justice is a minute taken away from searching for dangerous, criminal aliens - the ones we really need to deport. This is a foolish and cowardly approach and makes us less safe.j
2
If the INS actually arrested and deported all of those M-13 gang members Trump likes railing against, he literally wouldn't have anything to rail against anymore.
Better to chase and torment the maids and busboys.
1
ICE's Courthouse Arrests Undercut the Rule of Law, but don't undercut
democracy. The headline writer botched this.
1
If you are in the US illegally you need to be deported. Just that simple. Americans are tired of illegal aliens.
23
Many of us have 'immigration indigestion'.
6
Are you really suggesting that courtrooms should be sanctuaries from the law? Get over it. These people are criminals. They broke our laws. They don't deserve to be here.
26
Are the ICE police undermining the judicial system by circumventing judicial control and then taking people to detention centers? Sounds like the Third Reich to me.
1
Awful people doing awful things to good human beings. How do they sleep at night and what will their children and families think of them? shameful.
1
Illegal immigration and working here and sending the money made in the United States back to Mexico or wherever undercuts democracy and the rule of law. Put your own country in order.
17
Nothing chilling about catching illegals at the Court House: If you're illegal, time to leave--and quickly.
21
What was your first clue we are moving rapidly to a police state?
3
We are a nation of immigrants but this is ridiculous leftist drivel. Lets review. You come to this country illegally. There is an arrest warrant issued. The alien goes undetected escaping arrest through cunning and guile. He goes to Court for whatever reason and law enforcement must stand down because the law breaker is on the Court house steps? Really? Catch them in church, or at their daughter's birth in the hospital, at the bodega sort the dice game, at the food kitchen as they are handing out soup or at the restaurant as they are bussing tables. Wherever the illegal alien is he must be apprehended, cuffed, read his rights, brought before an immigration judge, tried, convicted and deported. End of story. Then he can get on the back of the line like the rest of the law abiding immigrants who we welcome with open arms. We are a nation of immigrants.
24
Boo hoo. Sanctuary cities aren't fair either.
22
Hey there, Cesar! Why don't they work things out at their courthouse back home in Mexico?
20
ICE's job is to enforce our laws. Those that break them shouldn't have a place to hide. ICE isn't the problem, the illegals are.
24
To wrestle someone down to the floor in a courthouse in order to arrest him is a situation you can call "now we have reached the so called Total State".
The Third Reich represented such a "Total State". I hope you are feeling how derogative and pernicious this wording is.
That is the point of it.
1
I'm a third generation American but these actions by ICE brutes scare me. They and their boss Trump are heartless. I was never pro-immigration but I find myself siding with illegal Mexicans more than I ever thought I would.
These ICE agents seem like the Gestapo to me. Who knows who they will go after next?
I hope New York and other cities remain sanctuary cities and fight these actions against people who work very hard in jobs that most people don't want.
1
If these ICE agents were serious about their jobs, they would be accompanied by police dogs, ala Bull Conner, to really give those "illegals" something to think about. Each day, the Trump administration sinks to new depths.
By doing their sworn duty and enforcing the laws and borders of our country?
8
The news side of this paper repeatedly "undocumented" immigrants are merely violating civil law, but the Times really is printing fake news on this. Under federal criminal law, illegal presence for more than 30 days is a federal crime. Not merely a civil violation, but an actual crime - see 8 USC 1302 thru 1306. Immigrants must register under the Alien Reg. Act. All aliens must register under the Act and failure to so is a crime punishable by up to 6 mo. in federal prison for a first offence. Any document showing legal or pending status serves as valid registration under the Act, even applications not yet unadjudicated.
The state and local judges, bailiffs and court officers all took a sworn oath to uphold the "constitution and laws of the United States". The Act has been repeatedly upheld as constitutional. Accordingly, opposition to ICE in courthouses is a violation of their sworn oaths. We don't get to pick and choose which federal laws we like.
Oh, and don't blame this terrible law on Trump and the evil Republicans. It was passed by a huge Democratic majority in Congress and signed by a liberal Democratic Party president.
25
The lawyer has also so sworn. And we see him trying to interfere with justice!
Trumpo and his fawning minion Sessions know precisely what they are doing in having ICE enforcement actions in and around courthouses nationwide.
It’s a conscious racist decision to deny justice to Hispanics, weather here legally or not. It says to criminals it’s ok to victimize illegals because they won’t seek justice on pain of deportation, even if it means doing nothing, for instance, of domestic abuse.
But it also has the ripple effect of preventing justice for any victim of a crime who may need an illegal immigrant as a witness to identify the criminal in court.
It also encourages extra judicial remedies, you know like “taking the law into your own hands” when there is no law to remedy the wrong, as SCOTUS noted in the 1907 decision cited in the article.
It frankly reminds one of Nazi Germany where there were literally no legal protections for Jews. We haven’t gone that far as of yet but where the rule of law is functionally systematically denied to a discrete and insular minority in this country it threatens us all.
This isn’t the first article in the Times regarding this aspect of Trumpo's racist stratagems against undocumented Hispanics and hopefully won’t be the last until jurisprudentially sound, humane and ethical policies are once again the norm at the federal level.
"Runaway slaves", "illegal aliens" all hunted in the name of the "law". No wonder John Kelly talked so much about a compromise to avoid the civil war. We know the type of job he would have done then. And we know the source of what motivates ICE thugs now.
3
A man rapes me and I am faced with the choice between speaking up and being deported or shutting up and letting a rapist go free. You women who pretend solidarity and demand equal rights, you waitresses and secretaries, you saleswomen and shop clerks, you doctors and lawyers and actresses and executives. You 53% of white women who said it was OK to vote for a degenerate and an abuser because the law will protect you. Think again.
3
That's the criminal's dilemma. When you are victimised by a criminal while you yourself are in the process of committing a crime, it's always a hard choice - but you made your own bed. Say you're a local guy, we'll call you Bjorn Stefanson, and you defrauded the city government out of tens of thousands dollars by faking a severe work-caused disability that supposedly leaves you unable to walk faster than a crawl. Then you are beaten and robbed of all your money and valuables while playing hoops at a nearby court, all caught on video. You know that if you report it to the NYPD you're going to attract attention to your condition - and likely get busted for your criminal fraud. So you don't report it. Is that somehow unfair?
It's the exact same thing. Illegal presence more than 30 days is a federal crime punishable by 6 months in federal prison. Look it up if you don't believe me - 8 USC 1302 thru 1306 (it's 3 crimes actually - "failure to register", "failure to carry" and "failure to produce the registration" - look it up!). The fact that they don't bother to charge many with these crimes b/c it's easier to just deport 'em doesn't make it any less of a crime.
The real truth is that opponents of ICE in courthouses really want to enforce only the federal laws they like, but they don't want the right to be able do the same (for example, non-enforcement of clinic access and gay marriage rights). So they lie and pretend it's some big principle - but that's a lie.
10
Anyone who, because their presence here is in violation of law, is not afforded the protection of the legal system they are flouting, feel aggrieved, is perfectly free to move back to some country where she has legal residence and the rights accorded legal residents. If her home country is deficient in this regard she is free to work to change that.
What she is not free to do is play both sides of the street, be a criminal in her life but suddenly want police protection when she finds that living outside the law is dangerous.
5
@Susan and Commenter One, You two are so concerned about the illegal that you would be willing to let a rapist go free? Lock up your daughters.
court houses are exactly the place where folks breaking the law should be arrested, this article is nothing but double talk
19
The editors' headline is that ICE making arrests at courthouses undermines democracy.
How about having 11+ million illegals flippantly subverting the immigration laws of the US? Is that not a subversion of democracy?
25
Short answer, no.
1
The Times has their morning and evening briefings so why not just serve up these types of op-eds with more intellectual honesty? Create a special column and call it what it really is: 'Your Morning Dose of Propaganda'.
21
All tbis heartache could all be avoided if the illegal aliens simply turned thelselves in.
18
So?
You argue that the police officers responsible for enforcing our immigration laws should not arrest criminals outside of a courthouse.
Allow me to endorse the I.C.E. actions. Congrats Gentlemen. Job well done.
Keep up the good work, only 10,999,990 illegals left.
I will also point out that the United States is a Republic, not a democracy. Nothing they are doing threatens the republic.
22
This country has every right to enforce the laws. People who are here illegally need to be sent back to where they came from, period. If your first act in this country is to break the law, you are not citizen material. I am a legal immigrant, i went through the process, paid the money, submitted the documents and have never had to enter a courthouse. You cite a traffic violation, most illegal immigrants can't get driving licenses, how do they get a traffic violation and who pays when they run over someone. I have lived in Spanish speaking countries. I learned the language in 4 weeks, why is this guy still speaking Spanish? Because just as the other interviewed for these one sided NYT's articles can't be held accountalbe for that failure after say 30 years, why bother? For legal immigrants, this is infuriating and citing a 110 year old law as defense, stupid. Keep going NYT, you're not winning any friends, but you are convincing your majority liberal voters that on this one issue Trump is right. Read your own comments section. Yesterday it was a wife batterer and rapist, you defended, please!
21
Let's see. Intimidation. Arresting someone because of their nationality or ethnic background. Sounds like Hitler's Germany. How much lower can the Trumpians go?
I am aghast at the hate, inhumanity, and lack of compassion in Trump, his administration, and his supporters. With virtually full employment and with employers clamoring for workers in many fields, especially those jobs Americans do not want to do, we need immigrants, documented or not, to fill those jobs.
Years ago, people in other countries spoke of the ugly American, usually referring to an American traveler to their country who was being boorish and demanding. Americans who call for and support the arrest and deportation of those who came here for a better life, even if undocumented, are the new definition of the ugly American.
We need compassion and understanding for those who have come here, who work hard, and who contribute to our society. I would call on the Trumpians to not be the ugly Americans, although I don't think they have enough, if any, compassion to understand the plight of those who take such chances to come here for the American dream.
1
Somehow Democrats still believe that people here illegally that have hid from law enforcement now have a "right" to not be arrested. Wow the Democratic party is going off the rails in their attempt to garner the Hispanic vote. Arrest them and get them out, now!
15
If you weren't born here then you don't have any rights. Simple as that. Sorry if your parents thought they could get pregnant in Mexico and come over here and have you, but that don't wash.
You don't get to pass the border in order to bypass the law.
15
As extremely harmful as these very, very aggressive arrest techniques are to our societal sense of well-being, peace, and harmony, I have to ask the question: Would any of this be happening if the people being detained had made concerted efforts during their years in this country to obtain proper documentation and permission to be here? I am one of those 16% "very liberal" people and I am horrified by the terrorization that ICE, Sessions, and Trump are perpetrating. But my mind keeps coming back to "why?" and the answer is always "because they didn't come in the right way". It's so sad and disruptive. Obama was on the right track but McConnell never permitted any positive immigration legislation come up for a vote. Now we have people hiding like Anne Frank hid from the Nazis! Is the world watching and judging us? I hope so.
1
ICE is lazy. Agents are going after people who are easy to nab, those with appointments in the system, or, in one case, a kid in an ambulance on her way to the ER. These tough guys in their bullet-proof vests with all that Rambo gear hanging from their utility belts can't be bothered with those "rapists" and "gangs" that white Republicans love to identify with brown skin. No, an actual criminal might require detective work and risk. Better to get the mom or dad at the bus stop, getting their American-born child off to school.
2
Thank you.
1
the man — yelling “No!” “My hand!” and “Why?” in Spanish
That quote from the beginning of the article, is more than enough for me to justify these actions. If you want to be part of America, learn and speak English
16
And so according to the NYT someone who has broken our laws should be exempt from the consequences of their actions? I'm a political independent and love the NYT, but please.....spare us the maudlin sentiments...if you break our laws expect us to enforce them.
14
This kind thing makes us look like some third rate dictatorship, run by a pack of thugs. Aren't we better than that?
3
Lest the average American might think otherwise of nyt's stated position, the article says that average joe is too ignorant to understand the nuance. Way to go. Lets pat each others back for a job well done - putting all ICE agents lives at risk with this outrageous attack on federal law enforcement. The paper of record is asking cities, communities and citizens to obstruct federal agents. Is this a call for civil disobedience, the kind put up in apartheid south africa? Does nyt really think that US immigration agents are akin to protesters and bailbondsmen? They are our last line of defense in a world quickly spiraling out of control into a third world cesspool. Stop playing up partisan politics with law enforcement. Not everyone of us is rich enough to pay for armed security like Bloomberg.
9
Please do not use the term immigrant when you mean illegal immigrant or illegal migrant.
17
Why should illegal aliens believe that the laws of the land apply to them? Why should they worry about our laws, when by entering our country illegally they demonstrated their contempt for them. Sorry, but if you here illegally, you should be deported.
14
Mr. Cuauhtemoc and Mr. Hernandez, perhaps were born and raised somewhere other than the USA? in places that lack a Jury System that works?
their combined editorial piece reads like a slanted lawyers attempt to persuade a jury, rather than present an objective analysis to the NYTimes reader.
next time, here in America, give us a more balanced analysis......Let the Jury Decide.
Here in the States.....that actually works. You dont have to bribe us.
7
These individuals entered this country illegally. There is no other country in the world that gives illegal aliens the protections that we do. The author and his cohorts in the democrat party will do all they can to bring in illegal aliens in the hope that they will vote democrat in the future.
14
They are illegals. The courthouse is a place of law and is now rightfully a place illegals should fear.
16
ICE is simply a tool for racist leaders. I am all for enforcing ALL immigration laws but ONLY when enforced against ALL OFFENDERS and not just the "brown people".
Illegals living here are working for some company or somebody. That company is always run by a white American. This is the same for US citizens that hire illegals to do odd jobs, lawn work, babysit, etc. I know from past experience. I hired a roofing company to replace the roof on my house. The owner was a white American male who touted being local. On the day the work started, a truck from the roofing company showed up with nearly all illegals to do the project. I know because I also speak Spanish and spoke with the immigrants about where they came from and their status. I had somebody else report the company owner's hiring practices. I doubt if anything was done to the "white American".
Hiring or abetting an illegal for employment is a federal immigration violation no different than being here illegal. However, "white American" immigration offenders are not rounded up by ICE like they do Latinos, Haitians, etc.. or other "brown people".
Illegals come here because Americans keep giving them jobs and end up being exploited. Until we fully prosecute US citizens and US companies that hire illegals, our current ICE immigration "deport them" efforts are merely actions to get votes from our racist citizenry
1
Shocking how many articles/space NYT now devoted each day to attacking those enforcing our written laws.
And not to mention that the “stoic” character in today’s other article was a convicted felon (rape and domestic violence)!
16
In the beginning North America belonged to the Asians who walked and boated here 13,000+ years ago and spread into 500+ ethnic nations. They were a mixture of saints and sinners and everything in between.
Until Europeans arrived about 500 years ago with a gun in one hand, a Bible in the other and carrying their germs they were bent on conquest and exploitation of the Natives, their lands and natural resources on behalf of their royal rulers and their faiths.
Beginning with the Italian Columbus on behalf of the anti-Jewish anti-Christian Spanish bigots Ferdinand and Isabella. To the Spaniard Hernan Cortez entanglement with the Mexica and their Triple Alliance aka Aztecs accompanied by the Mexica enemies to Francisco Pizarro's war on the Inca lies the root of a crime against humanity.
Until America started a war of conquest against Mexico the Southwest and Western USA was part of Mexico. Until Thomas Jefferson made the Louisiana Purchase from the French thief Napoleon that land was French. Jamestown, Roanoke and Plymouth were stolen by the English.
The last free Mexica Emperor Cuauhtémoc recognized the perfidy of the Spanish and turned on them. But disease and the many Native enemies of the Mexica ended their rebellion. The Mexican flag has an eagle perched on a prickly pear cactus with a snake in it's talons reflects the founding of Tenochtitlan. Mexico did not interfere in the 2016 election. An American hunger for drugs and a gun fetish corrupts Mexican politics.
1
Wouldn't it be a shame if a Mexican who witnessed the murder of a Border Patrol cop were deported to Mexico before he could ID the killer.
1
Only those here illegally need fear being "tackled" by ICE on the courthouse steps. This article is a companion to yesterday's https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/25/us/atlanta-immigration-arrests.html, and is just as vacuous. The NYTimes readers, generally liberal, condemned the latter, en masse.
What I don't understand is why the NYTimes is so intent on supporting those who are here illegally.
17
Because most of the undocumented are from Mexico, and a Mexican billionaire is a major owner by virtue of shareholding of the Times. Get it?
8
No sanctuary for illegal aliens; period..........
Sorry but in law enforcement "safe spaces" do not apply...........
Catch them anywhere you can..........
14
It is disgusting that our Congress and Courts allow this abuse of our very system of government to continue. This country is completely unrecognizable from the one I knew just a year ago. The millions of our voting population to take this country back. The only ones who should be taken away in shackles are Trump and his gang of liars and crooks.
What on earth is going on at the NY Times?
Why this spate of deliberately biased, manipulative, absurd articles and op-ed pieces (and articles disguised as reportage which ought to be labeled op-ed) that aim to persuade the readers that Americans do not have the right ot enforce their immigration laws?
Where does this perverse instinct come from?
What country does not have the right to secure its borders and to enforce its laws regarding who is allowed to enter and stay in the country and gain citizenship, and on which terms?
Restore rule of law in our country.
Restore meaning and value to American citizenship.
End the scourge of illegal immigration.
Resist this nonsense - the Orwellian newspeak - surrounding these absurd, made-up terms: "undocumented" and "sanctuary cities".
Restore common sense.
Stop already with these absurd and infuriating sob stories about people who, in Barbara Jordan's words, "try our patience" by thumbing their nose at our laws and our democracy.
END ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.
18
Illegal aliens are here illegally and should be arrested wherever found.
13
Does any country on the planet allow unlimited immigration and subsequent citizenship? If they dont, doesn’t it mean they are racist? Therefore, isn’t every country racist, or is the US the only racist country?
8
Despite all the hurt feelings among NY Times-ers, the truth is that you don't get busted for sneaking into the U.S. if you don't break our laws by coming here illegally.
11
ICE agents are nothing but thugs...the brown shirts of the
Trump era. I simply cannot understand why any decent human being would willingly join this assault on people's lives, careers and families.They make me ashamed to be an American.
1
Illegals should be arrested and deported from anywhere and everywhere that they are found.
12
Uuummmm yeah... this is called a POLICE STATE! ICE is the new Gestapo. I’ll say it again and again. It’s time that this country broke itself up. It can be done peaceably. On one side of the political spectrum you’ve got a bunch of folks that believe in authoritarianism, and possibly a Christian facist theocracy and on the other side you’ve got citizens that value traditional democracy. There is no middle ground here.
The Trump junta rolls on. When you have a racist in the Oval Office, those further down the chain of command quickly get the message.
1
Trump is corrupting the whole system, our whole way of life. The brown shirts are here.
2
Waa! Waaa! Another illegal alien gets arrested and deported story.
As they should be. Too bad, so sad. Please immediately leave our country if you are here illegally. You are breaking our laws to begin with. And don't forget to take all of your children along with you.
14
Lots of black and white commenters here who ignore the terrible cruelty even towards children of immigrants. Life isn't so simple. Decency and mercy count.
3
I suppose this could be likened to the Nazis rounding up Jews and shipping them off in boxcars, assuming the Jews were illegally where they were when they were picked up. We write our own laws that make such possible and can't blame God nor Hitler for what we do legally to ourselves.
These bigoted, Alt Right, KKK 'Americans' repulse me. It's time to split the Union after all. Let them have their grotesque, morally-corrupt lives. Just so they're clear that what was built by Jews, by Immigrants and People of Color stays here. They take with them only what they themselves have made or contributed - and the desolate silence will be theirs to enjoy.
3
This Administration is a cancer on our Republic.
3
It amazes me how the Republican Party has morphed into the most unAmerican institution. Supported by Nazis, misogynists, and (I just can't believe it) veterans and woman.
3
That's dirty pool. ICE=Gestapo. AKA: Trickle down fascism.
3
The author appears to be demanding special privileges for those who violate the immigration laws. Certainly, U.S. citizens who have outstanding warrants for any reason don't get a free pass and amnesty from arrest in courthouses. You can argue about the wisdom of arrests in courthouse settings in general, but it is disingenuous to make the argument only about those who have violated federal immigration laws.
21
And if anybody had said that they should get "a free pass and amnesty in courthouses," I would agree with you. But in fact, what they ought to get are plain old Constitutional protections against some guy with a guy waltzing up and demanding to see your papers.
Just so's ya know, what generally happens is that societies tolerating this kind of stuff when it comes to them illegals pretty much always end up accepting this kind of stuff for everybody.
Including you.
1
Enforcement of immigration laws is the sole responsibility of the federal government. Yet the feds want to force state and local governments to do their work for them, to the point that if state and local government doesn't do their work they threaten them with sanctions. This is just another tactic by the feds to make their job easier at the expense of the States.
Access to our courts underpins our status as a nation of laws, and that includes access by those who are accused of being in this country illegally, and that includes access for other reasons than status as citizens. The behavior by ICE, using the courts "as bait" to arrest and deport suspect illegals undermines our judiciary, and that in turn undermines the very essence of our government.
ICE's behavior is that of a police state.
4
Aren't convicted people taken into custody when their trials are over? Why can't ICE arrest illegals when they show up?
4
It is a long-standing principle of American law that defendants and even convicted criminals have rights.
If a person's alleged crime is that they are here improperly in their Pursuit of Happiness, do they have less rights than Charlie Manson had because they are citizens, but of another country?
How can they get the Due Process of the Law if they cannot access the courts and trust the police and federal agents to behave properly? Even if a president favors such conduct by ICE agents, that does not make it Constitutional.
38
Arrest starts the due process of law.
7
"If a person's alleged crime is that they are here improperly in their Pursuit of Happiness, do they have less rights than Charlie Manson"
No, they have the same right to be arrested, charged with their special crime, and submit to the judgment of a court. If Charles Manson had shown up in court over a traffic ticket, would it have been wrong for the police to have arrested him for the murders he was charged with?
6
I believe an aspiring immigrant here illegally and arrested by ICE does get due process; they are brought before an immigration court and allowed to make whatever case they intend to. Since they get an attorney, a hearing (more likely several) they are not being denied due process, the charge is ridiculous. Anyone with a warrant outstanding should expect to be detained if discovered by the authorities. if I had an outstanding warrant for say, failure to pay child support, I would NOT be surprised if the police were waiting for me at the courthouse if I was called for something unrelated. it does not "undermine our democracy" to enforce the law.
3
Look, I'm completely sympathetic to the view that ICE should not use unnecessary violence or Gestapo tactics in fulfilling their mission. It seems they need to recalibrate their policy on use of force. But this issue is more complicated than this editorial would lead one to believe.
You can't have it both ways. You can't say "I want the courts to vigorously pursue justice and the rule of law EXCEPT on my one pet issue--immigration." The courts must enforce the law, full stop. This includes the laws any particular person might like and the ones they don't. We would find it outrageous if a civil court in a financial case protected a defendant from a criminal warrant for sexual assault. It should also offend our sensibilities if a defendant is somehow protected from immigration law while in court for a different matter.
24
8 U.S. Code § 1357(e) requires the consent of the owner or a properly executed warrant before ICE may enter the premises of a farm or other outdoor agricultural operation. It’s more important to have sanctuary farms than sanctuary courthouses. Sad.
5
And it seems like it won't be long before the absence of permission or a warrant won't make any difference.
A farm is privately owned property, a courthouse is a public space. Therefore, consent or a warrant is required before violating the private property of the owner, while ICE or anyone else may enter a courthouse.
4
The U.S. is transitioning from a nation that tolerated and even encouraged unauthorized immigration to one that does not. The majority supports this change. A large minority of the population does not. I suspect that of the 10-13M people here illegally, different arrangements will eventually be worked out for different groups. Some, such as criminals and those who have ignored a removal order, will be deported, while some will be allowed to stay. Even with such a compromise, millions are likely to be deported. This is going to be an uncomfortable process, but it's the natural consequence of many years of letting the problem fester. Politicians have promised secure borders and only legal immigration since Carter was President. What we're seeing today is the price of political treachery and incompetence regarding unauthorized immigration from 5 past administrations.
26
Best comment so far. We are in for an uncomfortable period of time while everyone absorbs the fact that there is no free lunch, and we intend now to enforce our laws. This is not an injustice.
6
The whole point of these arrests is to scare the people. Makes it so much easier to exploit them.
5
Illegal aliens should be scared. They should not be here at all to begin with.
If their lives have become so scary here then they can return to their home countries, where they should be.
12
I understand the authors point about the disadvantages of effectively making the courthouse an insecure place for illegal immigrants to participate in judicial activities, but can't the same be said about other categories of lawbreakers? Is anyone making the case that dealers in illegal drugs, who are afterall only engaged in consensual commerce, should be able to use the judicial system to sue business associates for poor or undelivered product without fear of arrest at the courthouse? Or at least enter to take care of traffic tickets without that warrant for those two kilos of meth? Are courthouses to be no go zones for the DEA, the FBI sex trafficking task force, and US Treasury agents for the same reasons?
I hear no such arguments being made. It seems to me that what is really going on is that people who want open borders and are opposed to the very existence of immigration law, the people who want us to conflate legal and illegal immigration and relabel illegal aliens as merely undocumented, wish to delegitimize immigration enforcement.
What is an attack on democracy is the attempt by activists to stop enforcement of a law that the majority of the people support and want enforced. Sanctuary cities and states are also an attack on the national will because the facilitate the long-term settlement of illegal immigrants who then move in to other states, essentially thwarting the will of the rest of the nation.
23
The thuggish nature of this administration shouldn't surprise anyone. Trump and Sessions will use any power at their disposal to unthinkingly push through their agenda.
It is long past time for Congress to pass comprehensive immigration reform to fix a very broken system. Under our form of government, that is their constitutional responsibility. Lacking logical reform, the executive branch will continue to exercise arbitrary power within the legal void left by the inaction of Congress.
Time to do your job Congress! Years of hyper-partisanship have left Congress inert. Wake up and do your job. The country depends upon it.
2
It sounds like the author is pointing out that the actions of ICE are having unintended consequences. Specifically, that they are preventing undocumented people from availing themselves of the protection of our legal system (e.g. from domestic abuse), and of damaging the court's, and by extension the judiciary's, place in our democracy therefore weakening the democratic norms that form the basis of our system of justice and our freedoms.
I would posit that there is nothing unintended here. Both outcomes are goals of this administration. The first is obvious and already plainly stated by conservatives. Making life miserable for immigrants, legal or illegal, will make them "self-deport" or not even come here. The second is an example of the president's nearly constant assault on separation of powers and any limit on presidential authority. Couple this with the Justice Dept's releasing law enforcement from any accountability to the people, coupled with the daily attacks on the press and the intended result is plain.
The unthinkable is here. Our democracy is in peril. If this president refuses to leave office, no matter what the reason, who in his administration will come forward to defend our democracy and force him to go? I don't know the answer, and that scares me.
39
Hey! do you know that Illegal Immigrants have no rights? only the leftist of this country have given it to them, just like Obama did with DACA.
2
General Kelly (who formerly oversaw Guantanamo) and then moved to head he Department of Homeland Security expanded ICE's mandate to detain and process for possible deportation VIRTUALLY ANY foreign national who has been convicted of a crime, charged with a crime or SUSPECTED of having committed a crime.
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/immigration/article135111869.html#...
Jurors, witnesses and others required to be in court (along with legislators attending sessions) have been exempt from being arrested since before the country was founded and is embodied in the laws of many states. The ICE agents should be charged with contempt of court for violating this privilege.
1
Jurors and witnesses have never been exempt from arrest. Arrested jurors are usually replaced by an alternant jurors. Sometime mistrials are declared when a juror is arrested for behavior during jury deliberations. Arrests of witnesses scheduled to testify in upcoming trials are commonplace. They are brought to court from their jail cells to testify. Even judges are arrested at courthouses. In May, Judge Leticia Astacio was arrested at a Rochester, New York, courthouse for failing to appear for a hearing connected to her drunken-driving conviction.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/06/05/new-york-judge...
5
We are a nation of laws. ICE folks are just doing their job. It is efficient enforcement to arrest law breakers where they can be found easily. There should not be a safe haven for lawbreakers here. The only honest answer is to enforce a law or get it off the books.
32
The people being arrested are not part of our Democracy if indeed they are illegal aliens. By fulfilling the assigned duties of ICE they are actually supporting our Democracy. It is their job. If one wants to make the Courthouse a sanctuary, you should be lobbying to change the law like they was done with bail bondsmen. Until that is done ICE's actions are in support of Democracy, since the law was installed democratically. It is not ICE that is the problem, it is the law, and that makes it a Congressional issue.
21
You talk as if no one else is ever arrested at a courthouse, or afraid to respond to a summons because they have committed a crime. Citizens in this country who either have a criminal past, or may have recently done something that could lead to their arrest, regularly avoid contact with the police and justice system because they know they could be nabbed. It's the way of the world that when someone has done something illegal, such as flouting immigration laws and entering this country illegally, he will be doing what every other criminal does: avoid courthouses and the policd, because he became a part of the criminal community the minute he illegally crossed our border. By your reasoning, we should feel sorry for a bank robber who gets nabbed when he shows up at the courthouse to pay a parking ticket, or because he lives in anxiety that the cops might show up at his house, afraid to interact with society as other citizens do.
Yup. There are consequences when people break the law. Who would have guessed?
30
Ditto Yup, there are consequences...such as a whole ethnic community not reporting crimes for fear of family members being picked up for the low level crime of being here illegally. There is such a thing called police and prosecutorial discretion impacted by choices that clearly designate protection of the public as a priority. Our town isn't a so-called sanctuary city but I'm thankful that our police go after real crime and aren't interested in the Inspector Javert mode of law enforcement. I was born in Britain to an English war bride and an American GI during WWII and I was an American the second I landed on the tray. And, I served in Viet Nam but that didn't stop an eager beaver customs agent, upon examining my passport, from questioning my motives in becoming a US citizen. That's a level of law enforcement competence that should make us all proud!
Among the reforms I would like to see after we have taken our country from this gang of pirates at the top and their do nothing party in Congress, is immigration reform. And, included in that reform is a mass firing of ICE and Border patrol agents, much like Reagan did with air traffic controllers, followed by a complete revamp of their parent agency. If TSA is incompetent it’s no surprise that pseudo cops are just that with more than a smidgen of smug cruelty thrown in. Those people need to have to get other jobs better suited to their quotients of empathy and intelligence.
2
This unfortunate side effect of keeping people away from courts should slow down and eventually stop when all the lawbreakers are eventually rounded up and shipped out.
19
The impact these arrests have on people can not be ignored. In my county of central WA, we have a small hamlet which is home to many undocumented immigrants. They work in the apple orchards and vineyards.
Several years ago, before Trump was elected, a drive by shooting happened at about two AM. Fortunately, no one was injured. The shooter used a semi automatic rifle that fired a 7.62 mm round. It makes a loud crack when fired.
Eight rounds were fired into a residential trailer. No one called 911 that night.
The crime was not discovered until the next day when a deputy found the eight shell casings in the middle of the street.
If this crime had been committed in the County seat, dozens of calls would've flooded 911. As I said this all took place when Barack Obama was Potus. Eight rounds of 7.62 ammo fired at 2 AM. This would have been heard from a mile away with no difficulty.
These courthouse ICE arrests have and will keep undocumented immigrants from calling 911 in an emergency. That is a problem.
6
Illegal immigration has consequences. Unfortunately.
Can we tell if the people chose not to call 911 excuse they were afraid of being deported or if they had learned in their own country not to bother police unless they had a bribe to pay?
3
This is yet another Trump administration attack on the judicial system.
Trump makes personal and often racist attacks on judges that rule against him. He pardoned a sheriff convicted of contempt of court, for ignoring the direct orders of a judge to stop ignoring the constitution. He is nominating judges who are unqualified according to the US Bar Association. He is supporting Roy Moore, a judge who was removed from office twice because he ignored the constitution.
Trump is against the rule of law, and against the Constitution, and the Republican Party is supporting these attacks.
Trump is not just a bad president. He is a danger to the constitution and our Republic.
It is time for Republicans to read the Constitution of the United States, and actually follow what it says.
3
Courthouse arrests ate not a Trump administration attack on the judicial system. One of the two courthouse arrests cited in the article took place while President Obama was in the White House.
4
How is enforcing the law an attack on the judicial system?
5
The Trump administration is in a box of its own construction. According to their telling, immigrants are a criminal and terrorist threat to our country, they are stealing our jobs, they are stealing our elections, and they are soaking up our resources. If that's true, no measures against them are enough.
As so often is the case in the Trump era, the truth is almost the exact opposite. They cause crimes at lower rates than our homegrown population. There are almost no terror cases due to immigrants. There presence and economic activity actually contribute to job net creation. There's virtually no evidence of immigrants voting in our elections. And collectively they contribute significantly more to our economy and tax revenues than they use in services and benefits.
We benefit tremendously from the undocumented immigrants we already have. And we would probably benefit from additional young immigrants with the proper skill sets entering our country's workforce. By expanding the economy and paying taxes, they would further offset retiring baby boomer demands on Medicare and Social Security.
Again, Trump has got it wrong on immigrants and is doing exactly the wrong things to move our country forward. Curiously, Trump's approach matches what Putin is pushing through other right wing proxies in Europe. These efforts are intended to stress and diminish all western democracies.
1
Immigrants here illegally should be arrested anywhere, anytime. Work, home, hospital, driving, flying... With the rise of "sanctuary cities" where this crime is ignored and given safe harbor, we must fight the spread as aggressively as we can. What incentive is there to immigrate legally, obey laws, become a stable productive member of society, serve if needed, if we allow all to come without following the rules?
They should be scared. That fear and shame is what should prompt them to become a legal resident or citizen.
25
Setting aside areas where America's laws go unenforced also undermines democracy.
22
Most arrests made in the United States are made without arrest warrants. Law enforcement officers, including ICE agents, can make arrests without warrants when probable cause for arrest exists. Probable cause exists when facts and circumstances within the officer's knowledge would lead a reasonable person to believe that the suspect has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime. 8 U.S. Code § 1357 (Powers of Immigration Officers and Employees) empowers an ICE agent to arrest an alien he “has reason to believe” is in the United states in violation of immigration laws or regulations. ICE agents who make arrests at courthouses have reason to believe the individuals they arrest are committing a crime because their names appear on ICE wanted lists.
15
Here is another example of this unjustified attitude of entitlement by people who are breaking our laws but think they are entitled to the rights of citizenship that they are trying to steal. The author says it in the conclusion to his essay. He deliberately tries to confuse the reader by referring to the victims of this practice as simple immigrants when, in fact, they are illegal immigrants.
33
As one example of the red herrings in this article: I doubt that it’s only illegal immigrants who are intimidated from testifying against gang members.
The ray of sunshine here is that illegal immigrants who feel disenfranchised can always go back to their natal country and reclaim their native rights.
What do courts have to say when the mere presence of illegal immigrants is a scoff at the rule of law?
22
Absolutly incorrect analysis. Enforcing the law enforced the rule of law. And the rule of law IS democracy. As the will of the people can only be enforced if it is enforced always and in a just manner, and Justice is a matter of due, presidence and consistnecy.
Enthnonstionalist projections are against this rule of law and are thus against democracy
11
'Enthnonstionalist projections' are certainly against the rule of law. I quite agree.
Here is a confession of ignorance regarding a simple issue that the courts may have already resolved. I just don't know.
Which American Constitutional rights can an illegal immigrant claim?
Do they match the rights of foreign tourists? What if these non-citizens have paid taxes for years ... does that civic act grant them a few more rights? OK, which ones? When and where were they spelled out? What do previous court decisions and precedent teach us?
So many of the comments to this column are written by men and women who apparently trust that they KNOW the rights of illegal immigrants. A number are shocked and angry that the civil protections guarding these secretive (and often hard-working) visitors have been violated. Others warn that "illegals" deserve extradition and are ALWAYS subject to arrest ... not leniency, not charity, not sympathetic imagination. "Illegals" are not citizens. If they want to claim the rights of citizens, they must apply for and be granted citizenship.
But if the rules are so clear, so obvious, would ICE have been effectively licensed to act more cruelly, aggressively, under the reign of *President* Trump? It's clear many ICE agents delight in their new powers to terrify, track, and deport "illegals." Is that legal?
What are the rules?
2
The rule of law does not only apply to American citizens. If I, as a Dane, travel to and in the US, I will still (I hope) be protected by the laws of the US.
Anything else will degrade the US - if the present regime was not already in full swing taking the US back to the Middle Ages.
Not "new powers". Same legal authority as always.
2
Why would a warrant be required to detain an illegal immigrant? Warrants are reserved for citizens that are entitled to due process. These are not citizens, no matter what the MSM and left will tell you.
13
In our age of ennui, the radical conservative movement is fine with taking experimental pot shots to see what they can get away with. The good news is that they are as clueless as they think we are regarding any long term plan of action and where pushback will arise. They are ahistorical and blinded by ideology and religious faith. No matter how crazy any policy may appear (eg their immigration and tax policies) they are able to rationalize it as god's plan.
3
What's next for ICE, shoot animals under custody, unable to defend themselves; or lassoing those roaming free, from a helicopter, or shackle those in the zoo? Immigrants that came to these United States undocumented are not criminals, and no one on Earth is illegal per se, that is a misuse of language when referring to our fellow human beings, were even racism is no excuse. How about Aliens, of which I am part of, as my 'green card' attests (another derogatory term)? Most immigrants come here to make a living; and more often than not, do their best to improve their lot and the country's by extension. Besides, undocumented workers do jobs no 'native' can do or is willing to do (many of them menial or highly dangerous). Let's stop being abusive and/or hypocrites. And speaking of abusive, look no further than our 'ugly American' in chief, an out- of- control megalomaniac intent in destroying any vestiges of solidarity and decency, and already the source of distrust among us, let alone the trust in democratic institutions, and the healthy separation of powers in government. Abuse of power is tempting but ought not be tried, being a slippery slope always ending badly. And we are not even talking about sexual abusers, immigrant descendants, by now known as 'locals', and certainly immune to ICE-like officers. But I digress. Can you imagine the anguish of a parent, undocumented, apprehended in the process of taking his/her child to school, and, cruelty gratis, deported?
3
Another example of cruel and ill-placed application of the law, a waste of resources and a distraction from the critical challenges that America faces.
3
Last I heard, the Courthouse is where they put handcuffs on you when you are GUILTY. They don't wait for you to escape and run around the neighborhood and have a lot of people come and chain themselves to the paddy wagon to prevent the police or ICE from taking you away.
11
A more reasoned editorial would mention that ICE is pursuing this policy only in sanctuary cities where it is more difficult to arrest people on immigration charges.
24
The actions of ICE across the board undermine democracy.
2
The law is the law, simple and pure. It cannot be confused by anyone of fair intellect.
16
Many laws are in fact confusing, which is why many lawyers are employed to help courts determine when the line has been crossed into criminality.
Secondly, as anyone of fair intellect will see plainly, laws are not implemented and enforced simply and purely but selectively.
Who cares if illegal immigrants are scared away from the courts? If they are a witness to a crime committed on law abiding citizens, perhaps we'd want them to testify, but they should be deported shortly thereafter. But the example of addressing their speeding tickets, why should I care if they can do that without being arrested? They should be arrested right then and there, because they are here illegally and need to go home.
14
According to a letter ICE sent, in response to the letter Denver’s mayor sent them,
“ICE focuses on people who have broken a law and who also have a criminal history, a history of violent behavior or have attempted to elude authorities.”
Chambers vs B&O was a case concerning wrongful death. Chambers was an employee of B&O who died on the job as a result of the RR’s negligence. The
un-named man this article refers to in the lead was at a traffic court. Traffic court is not where two parties air grievances.
Your argument is a false equivalence, you are conflating issues.
ICE are not randomly showing up at court houses to harass people who have been injured at work or who are resolving disputes. They knew who this man was. He had committed prior offenses. He was an illegal alien with a criminal record. He should be deported. So should all other illegal aliens with criminal records.
22
This article is definitely incorrect. Enforcement of the law helps all of us and the country in more ways than simply keeping illegal aliens out of the country. The damage that was done to the US and all citizens by Obama's ineffective upholding of the law continues to hurt us to this day. It has run its course in so many deleterious ways that I can't even begin to count them all. And so does it does for anyone in a powerful position that swears to enforce the law and then turns a blind eye to it. There is only self interest behind this article; not truth. There is nothing redeeming about this article.
16
Where is the line drawn J? Should ICE be allowed to stay outside of Walmart and arrest people? What harm was the women trying to protect herself from domestic abuse doing to you or the United States of America? If anything, she was paying court fees and lawyer fees. Isn’t that supporting the economy? The pursuit of deporting people trying to protect themselves via the court system is an abuse of power. It is easy to distance ourselves from those we don’t see in a daily format as “different.” What if you decided to move to better your life, what harm are you doing? This country is great because we are a melting pot. Answer this question for me: What other country is so accepting of different cultures, religions and so on. Could a middle eastern country be able to handle all the diversity we have. It is easy to call people illegal, however the greatness of America lies in our acceptance of others who are trying to better their lives for themselves and their children. That’s how you make America great again.
3
Near me, a new tavern and associated parking lot sits directly across the street from the township police department, courthouse and parking lot. May the police sit in a patrol car and look across the street for signs of impaired drivers leaving the tavern? If not how far away from the bar's parking lot exit should they be required to stay?
14
The analogy is drinking alcohol is to life like doing legal administration is to justice. I see the moral equivalency in a fascist state of mind emboldened by my recent freedom of supremacy expression.
1
Such brutality in dealing with non belligerent offenders may thrill 'the base' but it seriously undermines civil society. And the kind of training and licence it gives law enforcers to be their worst, most inhumane selves is soul destroying all around; pretty much what you'd expect from a 'leader' like Trump and the vicious henchmen (and henchwomen) around whom he feels so comfortable.
6
So if someone gets cleaned up and behaves nicely they are exempt from the law and any consequences of breaking the law previously?
5
Putting aside for the moment the questionable practice of arresting people outside a courthouse, do the ICE agents understand the damage their forceful actions are doing to their reputation? They are starting to look less like immigration law enforcement agents and more like thugs. While trump's base might applaud this undue application of force, reasonable people wonder why the agents feel the need to go about their job so brutally.
3
Dear M.M.L,
Reading through a good number of the posts to this article, the ICE arrests do not seem to have damaged ICE's reputation that much if at all. It is never nice to see someone apprehended by the authorities, but just because it is unpleasant to watch does not mean it is a bad thing to do.
I can assure you most European countries enforce their immigration laws to the best of their ability. Sometimes, it does not look so nice either.
3
Why do illegal immigrants get to pick which laws they adhere to? If you are illegally in the US and don't have an asylum claim, you should be prepared to leave. I hate to say it, but the mentality that illegal aliens have the same rights as citizens was a big reason Trump is now in office.
31
Why has Trump gotten to pick and choose which laws HE adheres to? What part of "illegal" do you not understand? Oh right, the part that says anyone who can afford to game the system, wins. Like Wells Fargo Bank executives who earned millions for defrauding and ripping off their own customers and nobody goes to jail!
1
Americans need to wake up. This is exactly what the Trump Administration--initiated by Kelly before he left for loftier realms--intends to do. Every democratic right and freedom that we currently have is under attack by this presidency. We are only fooling ourselves if we think that these tactics are a coincidence. ICE is the tip of the authoritarian force ice berg. They are trump's troops on the streets. Immigrants are under the gun now but who will be next--Muslims, LBGT folks, blacks, non-Christians. it's only beginning and we're not paying attention.
5
Please tell me what democratic right is being infringed on when a sworn law enforcement officer arrests someone in the country illegally. Should they also not be able to arrest someone suspected of another crime if they're at a courthouse paying a traffic ticket, or just not illegal aliens? I'll be waiting.
5
If you believe it is somehow an attack on your democratic rights and freedoms if criminals are arrested, I'm not sure how you can be helped.
5
Wrong. Any method used to apprehend criminals is fine with me. And someone who sneaks into this country, drives without a license, and steals someone's identity to work here is a criminal.
28
What better place to arrest illegals than the courthouse? It's like the thief going to the police station. If you are illegally in the country, it's probably not smart to go to a place that is about the enforcement of the law.
Another way to put it: If you think it's not okay to arrest law-breakers at the courthouse, you must have a very odd understanding of what the rule of law means.
26
This is all best addressed by those who can vote showing up to vote. Gorsuch, ICE, environmental policies, etc., are natural consequences of a “never Hillary” and other voter apathy attitudes that allowed a mere 80k votes in 3 states choose a president who is doing now what he said he would do if elected. Whining is a waste of energy and precious op-ed space. Get mobilized and never again let voter apathy decide an election.
1
I think we’re going to learn from Mueller’s team that it was Putin who put Trumpf in the White House.
Here's a question for any Trump supporter who applauds this tactic. Suppose that someone assaulted your wife and the main witness refused to show up in court to identify the accused culprit because she feared that ICE would take her in? Your wife's assailant walks free for lack of evidence. Is that the kind of justice you want?
5
Not everyone who supports the enforcement of this country's immigration laws, and supports appropriate action to remove those here illegally, is a "Trump supporter."
3
Denial of access to the courts of our country is a bad thing.
Sorry for the elementary nature of this comment.
2
Interesting how you fail to see the irony of those who think they can ignore and break the immigration laws of this country by their mere presence simultaneously wanting to use the mechanism by which those laws are enforced when it benefits them.
5
If the person is illegal here, immigration enforcement has a right to arrest and deport them. Actually it is the illegals who are disobeying the laws of the country, not the immigration enforcement. Period
32
If the illegal alien had not resisted arrest, he would not have been tackled.
If the abused illegal alien really wanted to get away from her abusive partner, she was free to return to her home country where she would be safe.
No one who violates our laws should expect special treatment when they break them.
Americans with outstanding warrants get arrested in courthouses by local LEOs all the time. Because of this, said Americans tend to avoid going to courthouses or, for that matter, calling the cops when they're in trouble. Why should people who violate the sovereignty of our nation get a special break?
32
This reminds me of the story of the guy who goes around clicking his fingers. Across the board, the Trump administration is making a new America, great only in that it is a place where rights are chilled and people are progressively intimidated into silence. In time, Trump will say: "See, I kept you safe. Few terrorists in America. More people die of smoking than of bombs." When the guy who clicks his fingers was asked why he does it, he says: "It keeps the monsters away." We point out: "There are no monsters here." And he grins: "So I've succeeded," and goes on clicking his fingers.
1
Trump nation has become the Disunited States of Cruelty, a nation I no longer condone nor recognize.
1
This brings me to tears.
1
The crime was invading the country, not the traffic ticket. Invaders can go home and start the process to legally immigrate, like millions of law abiding others have done.
26
ICE agents do not "haul away" immigrants; they arrest people who are here illegally.
For an essay built around the importance of trust, it's deceitful and dishonest to mislead readers. It's hypocrisy.
29
Illegal immigrants need to be afraid of their interactions with authorities.
They are here illegally.
As for the woman at the court house seeking an order of protection, I assume ICE gave her a nice secure room.
19
No, illegal immigration that is ignored for decades undercuts democracy.
21
One of the reasons that police forces in cities with large Hispanic populations want some sort of "Sanctuary City" policy which leaves them able to pursue the job without becoming an arm of ICE, is that they can work with people to solve crimes and reduce them. They get more cooperation if people are sure that they will not be deported if they talk to police.
There is the ideal and the reality. For some the ideal is removing everyone who is here illegally. For others, the practical reality is that we will never get there and we need to work with the reality we have: that immigration status should not be an inhibitor to pursuing public safety.
Any policy that may increase violence or reduce overall public safety is stupid policy. When it comes to immigration, we only have stupid policy. No one wants to try to find a way to create smart policy.
1
I'm a state court trial judge. If someone appears and I know that a warrant exists for his/her arrest, I have no choice but to allow law enforcement to take him/her into custody. Whatever the reason, that warrant may dissuade someone from testifying in court in a family, civil, or criminal matter. This author and the NYT editorial board offer no coherent reason to treat immigration arrest warrants differently from other warrants.
120
But 'someone' does not 'appear' in court because that 'someone' has been arrested outside the courthouse! Isn't that a problem?
The coherence lies In the fact that it is uncertain that there is a warrant at all and that a warrant is not displayed to the arrested or a lawyer if present. In my experience the event does not occur in the judge’s chambers and therefore not even witnessed by the judge himself, rather as he is leaving court. The coherence lies in the fact that there is a policy of discretion of not doing such things in sensitive areas such as churches and hospitals. The coherence lies in the fact that innocence or guilt of the reason in court is irrelevant. The coherence lies in the fact that being in this country without inspection is not a crime.
You mean no other reason than the left wants us to treat illegals specially?
3
It is ludicrous to argue that ICE's tactics undercut democracy.
If anything, it UNDERGIRDS rule of law. We are a nation of laws, not of people who rule. You break our laws, you pay the price no matter where you show up.
It is a shame that our universities are staffed with faculty who are incapable of logical thinking.
32
"ICE’s Courthouse Arrests Undercut Democracy"
What do you call people who break American law by illegally entering and staying in the United States?
32
After years of administrations of both parties ignoring border security and apprehension and deportation of illegals we finally have a POTUS and administration that understands the importance of combatting illegal immigration. The Open Borders movement, so cherished by the Left, no longer has an ally occupying the White House.
23
If you are in this country illegally there should be no expectation that there is anywhere safe from ICE. Simple fix, head home and come back the legal way.
29
The author argues that it is essentially evil and fascist to permit enforcement immigration law in courthouses. Ok, so here is a partial list of countries let by evil fascist regimes which not only permit enforcement of immigration law in courthouses, but actually require it - not only by specialised immigration police, but also require all regular police officers to regularly enforce immigration law as well.
Canada
Sweden
Denmark
Finland
Norway
Netherlands
Belgium
France
Luxembourg
Germany
Poland
Austria
Czech Republic
Italy
Spain
Greece
Turkey
Japan
South Korea
China-PRC
Taiwan
Australia
New Zealand
Argentina
Chile
Russia
Turkey
Plus nearly every other country on Earth.
You know they're lying by the fact that they're not protesting outside the Scandinavian consulates and demanding that local Canadian police be banned from enforcing immigration law.
35
This has absolutely NOTHING to do with democracy, and whoever wrote the headline should be ashamed. This article is just one more defense of people who are here illegally, one urging that lawful enforcement of our immigration policies be ignored. Equating the arrest of an illegal immigrant with a hyperbolic threat to our democracy is but one reason this issue has gained so little traction.
29
Wow. If ICE had to really find violent people, instead of hanging around the courthouse or schools looking for gardeners and domestic workers, it might involve something like “work.”
6
Anybody familiar with life under fascism or communism knows what this article is about.
Sadly, Constitutional democracy requires an educated populace and work past simply voting. Pre-digested "news," and "reality" TV just don't cut it.
Read your history and understand it before we get too relive it under the traitorous Trump Crime Family and the collaborating GOP.
3
". . . immigration officials were breaking with tradition to descend upon their courthouses."
Doing their job is "breaking with tradition?" Time to get rid of traditions (and the immigration officials who aren't doing their jobs).
21
This is no longer America. We have turned the corner on the path toward a repressive oligarchy. Nicolás Maduro has to be laughing at this, along with Raúl Castro. How their American foe has fallen.
3
Have we really sunk this low? Are we now a police state with ICE storm troopers invading our courthouses? Every day I despise our "Go-Low" president more for how he is besmirching American values.
2
There is a basic inconsistency when illegal aliens who are breaking our country's laws by being here yet they organize and demand to be protected by laws that they do not honor. The illegals have a tough life in many ways and it would be nice for them if illegality could be transformed into legality with a magic wand. They are breaking the law, however, and should be thankful for any benefits they have managed to obtain. Future attempts to get improved legal status will likely be most successful if approached with peaceful reason rather than hostile demand.
'
24
Interesting article in that it depicts mostly sympathetic individuals being arrested by ICE in our courtrooms. I wonder if the intended readers might be less sympathetic to the issues presented if the characters arrested were the ultra viscous and brazen Latin gang members M13?
24
Don't do the crime if you can't do the time; anyone in this country illegally should fear being caught.
Iliegal aliens are, by definition, in this country unlawfully and should be deported, though of course allowed to follow any and all legal procedures to seek lawful admission to the US.
As it is the US taxpayers cannot afford to provide for all the needy and deserving parts of our legally-resident population--seniors, veterans, disabled, et al--much less offer generous payments and benefits to all the illegal aliens who are in this country.
24
Well, let's have a little thought experiment. If I'm innocent of a crime, but the only witness that could verify my innocence is an undocumented immigrant - then the justice system has failed me if the witness cannot testify due to ICE hounding courthouses.
An attack on the workings of the justice system like this is more frightening than an immigrant overstaying his visa or being without documents. The right to justice is paramount to what America claims to be.
11
If the witness for your innocence was a citizen and car thief WITH an arrest warrant, should that person be immune to detention at a court house ?
6
The burden is not on you or on your witness to prove your innocence, but on the state to prove your guilt beyond reasonable doubt. If you are innocent, therefore, then you need no witnesses to prove this.
6
The problem is that ICE agents are now arresting immigrants whether they have a criminal record or not.
Immigration court is a civil court and it is separate from criminal court. These are two different worlds. Immigration is under the jurisdiction of the Department of Justice; criminal court is under the jurisdiction of the judicial system.
The problem is that ICE agents are now arresting immigrants when they are still in proceedings at immigration court and before their trial has ended.
We used to protect from re-arrest and immediate deportation immigrants in proceedings until their trial in immigration court had ended. Sometimes immigrants find immigration relief and can stay on, but this outcome becomes clear only at the end of their trial.
Under Trump, and enforced by ICE agents the discretionary room we once had to protect immigrants already in the hands of government authorities has disappeared.
Trump's America Great Again now doesn't wait for immigration court trials to conclude before re-arresting and deporting those same defendants. These mass arrests and deportations abrogate all due process.
Yet we love to boast and toast our Constitution, and blah blah blah...
oz.
37
Are they arresting legal immigrants or illegal immigrants; there is a distinction.
6
Violations of any laws are crimes. Violations of U.S. immigration laws are felonies punishable by prison sentences as well as fines. Most illegal immigration cases are resolved in civil court rather than criminal court only because nearly all illegal immigrants agree to accept voluntarily deportation in exchange for having the criminal charges dropped. The voluntarily leave the country to avoid jail time prior to deportation.
Police arrest thousands of people every day who have no criminal record. If only people with criminal records were arrested, no one would have criminal records, and all crimes would go unpunished.
Discretionary authority exists under the Trump administration just as it did under the Obama administration. ICE still makes removing violent criminals the top priority. However, Trump has decided to use his discretionary authority to fully enforce existing immigration laws.
13
Illegal INVADERS are guilty of a crime, by definition.
5
Arrests by ICE in court houses while criminal charges are still pending is a violation of the right to a fair trial. The right of non-citizens to a fair trial has been well established, and denying individuals the right to a fair trial is a violation of his Fifth, Sixth, and Fourteenth Amendment rights. These rights have been upheld for non-citizens as far back as the cases of Wong Wing v United States (1896) (holding that noncitizens charged with crimes are protected by the Fifth, Sixth, and Fourteenth Amendments); Fong Yue Ting v. United States (1893) (observing that foreign nationals are entitled to all "the safeguards of the Constitution, and to the protection of the laws, in regard to their rights of person and of property, and to their civil and criminal responsibility") and Nishimura Ekiu v. United States, (1892) (noting that foreign nationals incarcerated here have a constitutional right to invoke habeas corpus).
10
Simple solution. Drop criminal charges and deport Illegal INVADERS.
5
ICE doesn't require a criminal conviction to begin removal proceedings against an illegal immigrant. Since ICE is not punishing the subjects for the criminal allegations in state courts, they are nor violating anyone's right to a fair trial by arresting them at the state courthouses.
3
If ICE was arresting citizens or immigrants then I would be worried and demanding answers. However, ICE is doing its job, arresting illegal immigrants. What's the problem? Arrests are never pretty, but that's not a reason to not arrest people.
70
How do you know whether or not they are really Illegal Immigrants or not? Just because ICE arrested him, doesn't make him guilty. Without a warrant, they could be arresting anyone, including you with a suntan.
While somewhat liberal in my views, in this instance, I totally disagree with the premise of this editorial. Arrest are not a matter of convenience for the arrested; but a matter of opportunity to act on a judges order. And a court house is not an exception. Judges have ordered people into custody. What is the difference? Illegal immigrates violate the law entering this country, avoid using the criminal justice system to remain in the shadows, is an inherent risk. Would arresting a illegal immigrate 2 blocks away make a difference?
61
What's the problem? Presuming that real warrants exist the arresting officer has not need to show it to anyone other than the alleged perpetrator. Given the scenario I can see why they cuff them first. Their attorney of record is only their attorney for the citation, etc that they are at the courthouse for.
If "The People" want the law changed then change the law the way it is supposed to be changed. Imperial decree's are what really undercut democracy.
25
Denver, the city where I live, is a sanctuary city. Greater danger occurs to all parties when cities refuse to notify ICE prior to a release. If you are concerned about safety and democracy abolish sanctuary cities and let ICE do their job!
68
I don't fear, but am encouraged by immigration to this country. My father was an immigrant. But by what logic should the law especially not be enforced in courthouses? People need food as much as justice. If people were arrested in pizza parlors, would it be better? And why was this arrest violent? Was there resistance?
25
This editorial misses an important point - the people being arrested at courthouses already had a day in court. They were issued orders of deportation and chose to ignore those orders.
It's disingenuous to call the judicial system important and sacred when it's convenient, and then something that perfectly fine to be ignored when you don't like the result.
66
How do you know that all the subjects of this piece -- unsuspecting people being arrested by ICE in a courthouse -- already have removal orders? Also, please note that "entry without inspection" to the US (which generally means entering without proper papers) is not a criminal offense.
This administration doesn't care whether an immigrant is treated roughly, nor whether an arresting officer has a warrant. Trump has encouraged the police to brutalize suspects. Nor does it care if any woman, immigrant or citizen, suffers at the hands of an abusive partner and is afraid to go to the law for help. In the current system, that's not a bug, it's a feature.
7
In our USA Democracy, the people elect representatives to the U.S. Congress.
The U.S. Congress makes laws,
including the laws relating to immigration.
The laws made by the U.S. Congress are the Supreme Law of the Land.
Every officer and judge of every state takes an oath to uphold the laws of the USA.
That is written into the U.S. Constitution.
State law -- and state judges -- must yield to the laws of the USA.
That was the lesson of the 1960s civil rights era.
The pro-immigration, pro-open borders crowd obdurately obstructs the Supreme Law of the land. Obdurate obstruction runs in their blood.
34
The think that they are Harriet Tubman when they are actually George Wallace.
What other immunity would you suggest for illegal aliens (the term in the US Code)? The resolution of a traffic ticket seems sufficient for an illegal alien to have courthouse immunity. Maybe a summons for a residential code violation like not cutting your grass or paying parking tickets should also confer immunity from arrest as an illegal alien?
Every illegal alien could solve this problem by leaving the United States. If they like courthouses, they could go to a courthouse in Mexico or Honduras where there is a high standard of "justice."
Illegal aliens have no right to be in the United States and they certainly have no right to be immune from arrest in any location which includes courthouses, churches or private homes. Illegal aliens should expect, at least for the next 3 years to be subject to the aggressive enforcement of immigration laws. The national security of the United States depends on this policy.
49
Illegal immigrants break our laws every day by being here. ICE is enforcing the law. Giving illegal immigrants a free pass to break our laws encourages other potential lawbreakers because it is too nuanced an argument to suggest that some laws are okay to break and others are not. As a citizen, I approve of ICE’s action to enforce the law.
49
Why do I get the feeling that if these "undocumented workers" were arrested at home or at work and then deported, the author would consider that a horrible injustice as well?
Really, it's perfectly okay to arrest suspected lawbreakers when they appear for court, especially if you can't easily catch them somewhere else. So please be honest: if you simply want open borders and oppose the enforcement of immigration laws, just say so.
49
Immigration arrests at courthouses have a significant chilling effect on witnesses and on victims coming forward—which makes this country less safe for EVERYONE. This is terrible policy.
3
The Pillar of Democracy upon which it rests is called The Rule of Law.
The privileges, which you address, are strictly reserved for the Citizenry and Legal Residents.
Last time I looked at either a National or Senatorial election, the clear majority of residents of the Socialist State of California voted Democratic.
Please recognize this ploy for what it is: A push to increase the Democratic Voter Base and to eventually control vast sums of Taxpayer Money, that are moved around the District of Criminals
19
Your talking like this, is going to increase the democratic voter base, from huge numbers of angry non-voting democrats, concerned independents and disillusioned moderate Republicans. There are many so-called socialist countries in Europe; for example, Sweden and Iceland. Are you lumping "socialist California" in with them? And as for the rule of law, if a lawyer representing an "illegal", watches in horror ICE shows up in court, to arrest his client, and he asks to see the arrest warrant but is refused ... how is that the rule of law?
1
ICE's dismissal of judicial importance is in line with Trumpism. If it is not the tyrant's way, it is no way.
2
I don’t understand why so many Americans think illegal immigration is fine. Is it really a good idea for anybody to enter the country without checks? Illegal immigration encourages low pay, poor working conditions, lack of accountability by employers and leaves legitimate citizens unemployed or worse on welfare. It astonishes me that in the US you can access health care, go to school and get work without having to show a birth certificate. Of course if you want to immigrate legally it’s more than difficult meaning law abiding people stay away.
34
Not followignanad enforcing the laws placed on the books by the people’s representatives undercuts democracy. One must also point out than foreign nationals, particularly those here illegally, are not represented in the legislature since they are not citizens.
25
The NYT in an article not too long ago wrote how lawyers with judges in collusion have intentionally aided illegals avoid ICE enforcing our immigration laws. In some instances they even have lessened charges against illegals so they wouldn't be turned over to ICE. They lowered felonies to misdemeanors to do this! Is that justice? Would they lower the same charges for a citizen, naturalized American or legal immigrant the same way? This is in NY State specifically NYC. They make a mockery of the law because they don't agree with the enforcement policies. Really? What laws does the courts uphold? Their own?
Arrests are made in courts ALL the time. Wanted individuals are arrested in the courtrooms, hallways, even bathrooms and holding cells in NYC courts and elsewhere all the time. We are creating an exception that is not granted to ANY citizen or legal resident the illegal immigrant exception and you wonder why there is a backlash by main stream America on this and it cuts across party lines. Legal immigration YES, illegal NO. Enforce the law.
69
The irony in this piece is astonishing.
We are supposed to feel sympathetic about the woman in El Paso who blatantly disregards immigration laws but then uses our justice system to obtain a restraining order against her abusive partner.
When we have people in this country selectively choosing which laws to follow and which to ignore, that is what undercuts democracy.
48
Evidently, some readers are quite happy to have two sets of justice, one for those here legally and one for those who are here illegally. In other words, a crime against an undocumented immigrant is just fine with them. I wonder how they will feel when an immigrant, undocumented or not, will refuse to testify for fear of being arrested and possibly deported, whether or not they are here legally. ICE has deported green card holders and even US citizens, especially if they have brown skin.
2
Not enforcing immigration laws---when we surely all agree that some level of control over immigration is necessary---hurts everyone. The author's arguments are all based on the fear of purely speculative harm, and in fact are condescending to undocumented immigrants. The author seems to envision them as something less than fully autonomous, as cowering prey to a confusing and arbitrary system, when in fact people who immigrate here illegally are aware of the significant risks they take, and the harm to their own families that could result, and they do it anyway. Trump's disgusting rhetoric, and abusive policing aside, laws should be enforced.
11
Only in the NYT's perverse way of thinking is the lawful carrying out of an arrest warranty, itself ordered by a court of law, undermining the courts.
It is the very decision of so-called sanctuary states/cities that refuse to hold and turn over detainees with outstanding ICE warrants that necessitates these more aggressive arrest tactics. And arresting a criminal, with an outstanding warrant, in a courtroom, which insures they are not armed, is an excellent and safer way to re-affirm the power of the courts to issue arrest warrants.
28
ICE's practices don't undermine democracy; they undermine the respect for the courts as a place for justice.
40
Last I checked, people aren't immune from arrest for doing something illegal just because they're at a court. If I punch a bailiff do I get to walk free? So why should an *illegal* alien?
15
Respect for justice is undermined by locations that grant "sanctuary" to those who have and continue to violate the law!
9
This comment begs the question. In other words, it assumes it's own conclusion. Why is it unjust to detain someone deserving of arrest simply because the location is a courthouse? Since when is an arrest only just when ICE/police play by rules imposed by unauthorized immigrants and their advocates, instead of the rules we use generally in society?
9
Don't tens of millions of people go once a week to buildings where they can all talk about and feel some relief due to their "sins"? These "sins" may in many cases be illegal acts. Why are we letting all these people - many of whom are committing illegal acts - to congregate freely? Law enforcement needs to be at these building en force to identify and arrest those guilty of crimes.
2
Trump and Sessions don't care about democracy. Period.
1
The path to being a good citizen does not start with cutting the line.
There should be no sympathy here. These people are here illegally. They are violating our laws by being here. When our laws are broken we are all offended and we are all harmed.
Naturalization laws and enforcement are the sole responsibility of the federal government. The Supreme Court recently affirmed this when they ruled against the state of Arizona. The states and local municipalities have no legal standing.
These illegal aliens have a home outside the USA. They need to go home. If they wish to come to our country they should pursue the legal process of immigration as other law abiding people are already pursuing.
27
So enforcing the law undermines the rule of law?
23
By this logic we shouldn't arrest those with criminal warrants either. Think of the wealth of information that could be gathered if criminals felt free to access the courts without fear of arrest.
We have rules for immigration; those that violate them are criminals. They should be arrested wherever they may be and at any time.
These lawbreakers hurt the rest of the poor of the country by exhausting social resources and overburden our already nderfunded schools. They also create a bottleneck so that other folks looking to enter the country legally are forced to wait longer to gain entry into the US.
20
It sounds like the folks at ICE are getting their act together and are being allowed to do their job. The benefit of a court arrest is that you have an official appointment, date and time, this makes planning and deployment of resources much easier.
If you're illegal, you gotta go!
19
I hope the Times will put money behind reporting on ICE and its activities. I hear more and more stories about violent arrests during random traffic stops, etc. This country suddenly got a president who wants to get rid of a lot of residents who have been lawfully working toward citizenship, people who believed they would eventually be safe. To shift policy instantly in a massive system is to create pain and chaos and an unsettled country as a whole. People are being harassed, terrified, and driven underground by ICE. ICE officers seem brutal. These policies are expanding violence in our country. Do we want to live in a place where some people are made to disappear while others go about their day normally? It's not fair. Don't we want to be a fair people?
3
Illegal aliens are NOT by definition here legally, nor working to be citizens -- most have no interest in citizenship -- some who would qualify do not even bother to apply -- and the only idea about being "safe" came from eight years of Obama deliberately not enforcing the laws of our nation, and abusing his Executive Privilege to permit Dreamers and illegals to stay forever with no fear of deportations. That era has ended, thank god.
6
Does this paper ever believe that illegals should face deportation anywhere? So they can't be arrested at schools because that's unfair to their anchors. They can't be arrested at home because that's an intrusion into their privacy. They can't be arrested at church because that's a sanctuary. They can't be arrested on the job because it's unfair to presume that Pedro Hernandez really is John Smith as he said he is when he presented a false I9. They can't be arrested in the courts now.
Just where can we arrest and deport illegals? The answer from this paper seems to be nowhere and never.
42
The simple answer to your question is that undocumented migrants can be arrested when they come in contact with police when given a reasonable suspicion relating to their immigration status ....but police should not be hunting individuals which is obstinately what is going on here. These actions deprive individuals of due process and protections that are given to every other person. When ICE has been arresting US citizens or permanent residents who can't prove their immigration status at every given moment of the day (do you carry your passport or birth certificate with you everywhere you go???)...then yes, ICE and this administration has lost all abilities to reason or properly govern in concern to immigration. Furthermore states and cities have a fundamental right to choose how such laws are exercised in their jurisdiction...and oft times ICE agents are contravening such laws.
1
Not illegal, "undocumented"! How can you be so insensitive! /s
4
Illegals should be afraid, They are breaking the law. Their very existence here is about breaking down the process of law enforcement. If they finally get the idea we are serious about making them leave, they will go home and we'll all be better off.
25
Every dictatorship starts by removing rights from those at the bottom. Those above say nothing. Why should they, it doesn’t affect them. Then rights that the middle class hold sacred begin to disappear. After that the middle class begins to disappear. Soon there are only 2 classes, the filthy rich & the downtrodden, overworked, underpaid, impoverished, less than, poor. Yup, that includes 99% of the people in this country.
First comes refusal to produce a warrant (can always get a back dated one, from some compliant Federal judge), then more and more crimes become warrantless. Just grab whomever you want, keep them as long as you want, & fake all the ‘evidence’ you want. Look at history. Nazi Germany, just being Jewish was a crime against the state. Franco’s Spain, still in a turmoil, all these years later, just because some want to be free. The Philippines, Duarte can have anyone killed he wants. He calls it freedom. Venezuela, Brazil, Russia, China, Vietnam, NKorea. Are we next? During WW2 the Constitution was suspended. Did it really need to be? If it can be suspended because of war, all this regime need do is get congress to declare war on ISIS, then he can, in one massive grab take all our rights. Once gone, it will be very hard to get even the most basic back. Don’t figure he’ll only take control of those at the bottom. In the end his kind always take everything from all. Start at the bottom & work up. Till all that’s left is the 1% & no one will cares about them.
5
America's becoming a police state.
There are spy agencies, state police, federal police and marshals, FBI, CIA, NSA ICE, and who knows what other agencies there are for "PROTECTING THE PEOPLE"!
3
Police state for enforcing laws. Are you serious? Please tell me April Fools Day came early.
8
If someone is here illegally, they shouldn’t be here. There are millions of people that waited for year to legally get a visa.
In addition, there are millions of more people who have waited many many years as well to get green cards and citizenship.
Anybody here illegally should leave the country, and then they are welcome to come back after they have gone through the process legally.
50
No, anyone here illegally should be expelled from the country for good.
Never allowed to apply nor re-enter the country under any circumstances.
This policy has served Australia very well in their measures to prevent illegal overstays and illegals within their country. This type of restriction makes an illegal alien surely think twice about staying, hopefully.
6
We need immigration reform and Congress should be doing something to make everyone's life easier. If people are already here, working, paying bills, figure out a way to give them a path to citizenship that doesn't require them to do anything more onerous than paying a fine and waiting. Arresting people who are here, who have no criminal record other than parking tickets or misdemeanor violations, is a waste of taxpayer money. We need some common sense and an appreciation of our immigrant heritage, and this story illustrates that we have neither at the moment.
6
Does Prof. Hernandez think that this ban on arrest should apply just to ICE federal agents and immigrants or that the courts should provide sanctuary to all for whom there is a warrant? Or what about people committing a crime in a courthouse?
Immunity from arrest is a pillar of democracy?
37
Heard about this in California earlier this year. Horrifying, and the fact that it's now so widespread is absolutely chilling. This calls for legal action, either in the form of a lawsuit by the ACLU or legislation on a state-by-state basis. Thanks to the author for bringing this situation to light. Something must be done to protect our court system and its participants!!!
4
The authors wrote, “Elected officials must take seriously their legal obligation to keep courthouses accessible,” a belief I know most Americans agree with wholeheartedly.
But the flip side is that elected officials must also take seriously their sworn duty to enforce the rule of law at the border. With over 11 million people entering or remaining in the U.S. illegally over the past few presidencies, Americans have decided that perhaps drastic measures are necessary.
This is the end game put in place over decades of elected officials not taking “seriously” their duties to protect our borders.
30
Employers willing to hire undocumented workers is a significant contributing factor to the presence of people remaining illegally in this country. Consumers demanding lower prices contribute to this situation as well. It's a complex situation.
5
Protect our borders... from people trying to earn enough currency to feed themselves?
We need to protect ourselves from the cartels shipping drugs and potentially, explosive devices, into the US to do us harm: the 1% that Dick Cheney waterboarded people over. Not Mom and Pop and their young children from Mexico: the 99+% of people that are looking for food, security and lack of corruption.
1
This essay provides reasonable grounds for insisting that the rights of legal immigrants and citizens be aggressively protected. But that's about it.
20
Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents should be compelled to show that they possess an arrest warrant and have tried without success to locate and arrest an illegal alien at his or her last known address or place of employment.
Only upon a showing of such effort should ICE agents be permitted to arrest the subject at a courthouse.
The suspicion, of course, is that ICE agents have not procured an arrest warrant, have made no effort to apprehend the individual previously and have simply combed court records for names of persons with unpaid citations for minor offenses, waiting to pounce when anyone on the list showed up to pay.
What a terrible example of the misadministration of justice.
4
ICE is starting to look more like the SS then a part of US Law Enforcement. Removing residents from schools, hospitals, churches and courthouses without any due process.
Are we going to start seeing people being marked, tagged and marched off to "camps" where no one can access the internees?
Who will give any of us recourse, when the perimeters of undesirable are moved to suit those in power?
5
If you hadn't entered the country (or overstayed your visa) illegally, you wouldn't have anything to worry about
6
No, what harms all Americans (and the US legal system as a whole) more is lack of enforcement of the immigration laws. Those laws were adopted democratically by democratically elected popular representatives and they represent an expression of democratic popular will. Thus a refusal to enforces those laws directly undercuts democracy, not the other way around, as this article claims. American people did not decide on and gave no mandate for admission of millions foreigners into the country without a proper visa and allowing them to stay there indefinitely without any recourse. If that was their purpose they would have instructed their representatives in US Congress to adopt a law granting those foreigners a legal status. But it is not.
25
Gee, the cases that I have seen prevent the arrest of litigants or witnesses in the court.
One suspects that in more than a few cases the arrest took place on the courthouse steps.
It might be a good idea for a court or a prosecutor who just lost a witness to ICE to sue to get him back and to enjoin further such arrests. I suspect that in a federal case, the judge would not take kindly to litigants or witnesses being taken by ICE just outside the court.
4
How does enforcing a law, that was congressionally created, undermine democracy?
How does letting in millions of undocumented, unregistered, and illegal people who, constantly on the run from the law, or indifferent to the law, contribute to democracy and its laws?
As many other commenters on other articles have noted: while hard and unwieldy, it is possible to be a legal immigrant in the US and contribute to democracy. If anything, trying to make immigration easier by ignoring the law, rather than fixing it democratically, undercuts democracy.
35
ICE makes a good argument.
If "sanctuary cities" won't cooperate with detaining illegal immigrants in the safe environs of a jail, ICE is forced to detain them in less-safe public areas, including around courthouses.
All of the incidents mentioned are simply the unintended and unfortunate consequences of liberal attempts to thwart the enforcement of federal immigration laws.
137
Actually I think they are the intended consequences. Brutality, intimidation, racist fury, xenophobic obsession displayed as a warning that it is not only the immediate targets who will be brutalized but that everyone else better be compliant, docile and terrified or the repressive hateful armr of the state will turn on them next.
1
Yes. Because it’s brutal to enforce existing immigration law, as it interferes with Democrats pland with importing voters from 3rd world peasant cultures with no concept of rule of law or limited government in a constitutional republic.
2
Yep...unintended consequences strike again.
Do the regular police not arrest people at courthouses? Why should the ICE not arrest people at courthouses? This seems like just another attempt to normalize illegal immigrants (yesterday there was an article about how it was bad to arrest them on their way to work). We should be moving the other way in my opinion. That is try to eliminate illegal immigrants through stepped up enforcement, securing the border and implementing a functional visa entry/exit tracking system, and eventually some sort of amnesty for those that remain once we have essentially stopped new people from becoming illegal immigrants and are confident we can handle the surge in new attempts that will almost surely accompany any new amnesty.
18
I understand that those who seek a great America where papers are requested by authorities on a regular basis have as a primary concern that the jobs performed by those without papers be performed by citizens or green card holders. So should we not put employers of these illegal immigrants on notice and check back to ensure that the American who got to replace the deported employee is indeed American or a permanent resident. If we don't follow up on the employment positions of those deported are we not just churning our way through more illegal immigration at a high expense to tax payers. Bush's TSA was the biggest federal jobs program in decades but perhaps ICE can be as great. Leave it to our Republican leadership to expand our government and request our papers. Can't export TSA or ICE jobs.
2
ICE must establish probable cause in order to arrest someone for immigration violations. In order to establish probable cause the suspect must have been arrested by another law enforcement agency for a criminal offense in their jurisdiction.
How is it unreasonable for ICE to detain criminal suspects to investigate further federal violations?
In what other area of law enforcement would any suspect not be investigated for other violations?
Why should immigration law and illegal immigrants be exempt from routine procedure carried out for all other law enforcement?
11
You obviously did not read the article closely. One of the women arrested had commited no crimes. She was trying to prevent crimes being committed against herself. She had no arrest warrents.
What is shortsighted in such a case is the boyfriend may be an American citizen. He is now free to move on and destroy the life of another citizen. Which he will, as predators rarely confine themselves to one subject. The same theory applies to murderers and rapists. What you are saying to criminals is "go ahead and destroy as many lives as you can, it is more important to get one illegal immigrant off the streets".
1
I'm a Liberal person, and I watched the 1st video and the very sad and upsetting reaction of the woman related to the arrested person. I read the story. I don't see the case being made for stopping these arrests rather I see special pleading.
This piece inflames humanist sympathies as a substitute for real debate, and obviously the author has a strong bias toward not ever arresting any person in the country illegally. Would moving the arrest to an area outside the court help? Then that would be better although I doubt the author agrees. But it seems to me that a person guilty of a crime being bagged at a courthouse is in fact particularly proper, as the courts do enforce justice. The argument that they won't come to the court for some piece of business does not carry any weight because any method of detaining them also prevents them doing court business.
Yes I think it's very unfortunate, but we do have laws for reasons that overarch personal sympathy. If anything in the video is disturbing it is the lack of uniforms and other symbols of a professional law enforcement agency on the two men doing the arrest.
56
Courts, as a system, within a political framework and ideology, do not enforce justice---a value which needs to be delineated all of the time given that it is time and place-bound. Courts enable the carrying out of laws and regulations as well as assessing them over time.Racial segregation was legal. Nazi Germany was legal.Terms-concepts such as "genocide," and "crimes against humanity," garbed in + ethics and + valences have rarely resulted in adjudications against the masses of human violators.We need " menschlich"- laws, however delineated, in order to enable and sustain a more humane societal system. Let's remember, laws, just like their developers can be and are both flawed and flawable. Consider: God, the "father" of the Big Ten, "holocausted" Sodom...all of its human and nonhuman living organisms, including undocumented fetuses in this Biblical narrative as well as well as all of the surrounding land.I wonder what the law is, and would enable, if an ordinary citizen, witnessing "tackle-to-the-ground-for- law-and-order, of a -less-than-human-alien, would attempt a citizen's arrests in our toxic, daily, WE-THEY violating culture?Who are these ICE agents-of-control? What types of training do they receive? For how long? How is their work assessed? By whom? How many have been charged with any types of criminal-violent behaviors?Who are their supervisors, in terms of professional background? Training?What else do WE need to know and understand about what we enable?
Why not give the judge the warrant and have them detained inside the courtroom? Would better serve justice than the display of the arrest outside of the court house.
1
Yes, a person ADJUDGED GUILTY of an aggravated felony is someone that ICE can and should detain, including at the court house. But the point of the court system is to determine who is guilty and who isn't. Seizure of criminal defendants in the absence of a warrant -- i.e., people that are presumed innocent -- serves no legitimate purpose. Plus, this article focused on a woman who committed no crime but instead was arrested for seeking the court's help in keeping away an abusive partner. That's antithetical to the Rule of Law.
1
ICE already excludes many areas from enforcement that undocumented immigrants are known to populate such as schools, universities, hospitals, and churches.
Illegal immigrants can easily avoid any courthouse incidents by either leaving the nation they entered in violation of the law, or by turning themselves in to ICE.
If someone's rights are being violated, I'm sure that Professor García Hernández or a lawyer from the ACLU will be more than happy to represent them.
24
Anybody who has been paying attention to Trump's words and actions during the presidential campaign and during the first year of his presidency could safely deduce what's likely to happen in the very near future.
It is clear that the Trump regime has been using true-and-tried "strongman" (to be kind) tactics from the the get-go. They include, fanning the flames of racism and xenophobia, with the (apparent) intention of making immigrants easy scapegoats for the anger harbored by Trump supporters.
To that, add the fact that in a very systematic manner, the Administration has been removing protections of several classes of immigrants, including DACA, Central American, and Haitian refugees (among others), and again, it is not hard to see what's coming...
At some point (which will be dictated by strategic advantage to Trump), ICE and Homeland Security will begin rounding up tens of thousands of undocumented immigrants, and a large number of them will be placed in for-profit "detention" camps.
Cruelty will be a hallmark with which many of these arrests will be conducted, which will have the effect of first, shock people that this can happen in this country, and second, spread fear among other circles, including social justice activists whom are also likely to be targeted for enhanced surveillance, and trumped-up chargers.
I have no doubt in my mind that this where we're heading...
3
DACA and TPS are all temporary measures. They were being extended well beyond their initial period and those receiving the benefit were fully aware that it was not a path to permanent residency / citizenship, and that it would eventually expire.
If they detain and deport illegals fantastic, the faster they can leave the better. It would provide a dis-incentive for other potential illegals as well.
4
Democracy? The Trump administration will mark the end of a 20-year process in which our democracy as we've known it has been taken apart. And many Americans just do not care at all.
5
I think people are seeing the ICE agents as above the law and not ethical. How are people supposed to respect these folks?
4
Federal agencies should have free rein to go about their legally authorized business. Citizens or people in the US legally should be able to go ahead with theirs.
29
I'm a criminal defense attorney who has brought clients, often accompanied by family, to state courts where the INS, unannounced, awaits. Such IMMEDIATELY gets back to the immigrant community. We are creating a subclass of people, already skeptical of the law, who has lost all confidence in due process.
102
Paul Kramer - "We," the American people, have NOT created a "subclass of people, already skeptical of the law" and as an officer of the court you should know that. The people who are in the United States illegally already had a festering disdain for American law when they made their conscious decision to violate US law and continue to do so every day they remain in the United States illegally. The fault is not America's the fault is theirs and theirs alone.
6
Then maybe they will self deport, and pass the word back home that the barn doors have finally started to swing shut.
3
Maybe it’ll get all the way back to their country of origin and they will stop breaking our immigration laws altogether.
2
The author makes a great point. However, it is a little disingenuous, to say the least, to say that people who are wanted for breaking the law are "unsuspecting." The whole point of having laws is that they regulated behavior according to an agreed upon standard. If police cannot arrest people who have committed crimes, then the Rule of Law cannot obtain. Courts are part of the procedural apparatus which upholds the Rule of Law; they are not its only manifestations. Let's not forget that ICE is arresting criminals, not "unsuspecting" and law-abiding citizens. Are we really willing to make the case that no one can be arrested at a courthouse? Seems like a graver threat to the Rule of Law than criminals being afraid of calling the police.
19
Arrests in Courthouses are in a very bad taste, as would be rounding up of illegal immigrants at a demonstration protesting their status. But Courthouses are not the Asylums of old, such as churches used to be. If a person is sought by the law for some presumed infraction, that person can be arrested anywhere.
9
The accepted myths that sustain a nation's self-image may be an important part of social cohesion, but they shouldn't contradict the actual tenets of governance or a sincere respect for human rights.
Which is why the creeping expansion of a police state under the Sessions DOJ is such a dangerous thing. That much of it is happening "beneath the radar" should tell you all you need to know about how truly pernicious these regressive forces are. So while school teachers tell their students that America is a beacon of liberty and justice, that myth is contradicted by what ICE officers are actually doing in the very homes and workplaces of those same students.
This favoring of malevolent literalism over humanity is of a piece with the Republican agenda: stonewall on balanced judgeships until in power, then go on a tear for appointing the most conservative of judges; pledge allegiance to 'fair and balanced' journalism until securing control of the FCC, and then negate that good; claim that a 'tax overhaul' is in the public interest, when all but those bought-and-paid-for analysts see it as no such thing.
I accept the value of myths, but when they threaten to extinguish the real foundation of liberty and justice for all –when law enforcement has all the earmarks of a well-oiled police state– then something is seriously wrong with this country. There's no hope for counteracting this travesty from within the Trump régime, none at all, and I don't know whence resistance comes.
97
How is a country able to enforce liberty and justice for all if the laws that protect such concepts are not observed?
3
Very well said. Thank you.
1
You don't have the liberty to be in this country illegally. You will get justice at your deportation hearing. Courthouses are not sanctuaries for criminals.
2
Arresting lawbreakers does not "undermine our democracy." But, in any event, it is a republic that we have, not a democracy.
14
God forbid that a immigrations agency arrest someone in a courthouse.
Of course when you look at the protests by foreign nationals in this country one of their demands is that ICE be disbanded and/or make no more arrests anywhere.
Somehow I get the feeling that it's not the fact that ICE is arresting illegal immigrants in the courthouse which the writer finds problematic, but rather that ICE is arresting illegal immigrants at all.
As a citizen I do not suffer one bit if illegal immigrants are afraid to enter courthouses. They should be.
32
What is your native tribe and name of your reservation?
1
Hello, hello, is anyone paying attention? We seem to be inching our way towards a police state. We may even be one already. Yet we go to war in far away lands to protect other peoples' right to live in a free society.
Ours, however, is not free. And in this context, our pledge of allegiance has sadly become a farce.
6
What undermines democracy is the glib lies of lawbreakers under the guise of being "activists".
"With no change to federal policy in sight, it is up to cities and states to push back. Elected officials must take seriously their legal obligation to keep courthouses accessible."
How about elected officials taking seriously their legal obligation to uphold all laws?
11
Here's the irony. If the jails would cooperate with ICE, then ICE would not need to go to the courthouse. Sanctuary cities have created this. I'm sure that reporting all arrests to ICE is not the solution that the author is seeking, however.
24
It ought not to be overlooked that the arresting officer failed to produce a warrant and arrested the attorney for asking for one.
4
I doubt the lawyer (for an unrelated case) was arrested for peacefully asking to see the warrant. The author left out the lawyer's words and actions which were disrespectful of the ICE agents.
1
To the contrary, it is illegal aliens themselves who undercut democracy by flouting the laws of the United States. Our duly elected officials have enacted our immigration laws in a bipartisan manner, including President Reagan working with a Democratic Congress in 1986 and President Clinton working with a Republican Congress in 1996. This is the very definition of democracy. The laws may be imperfect or need updating but these are, in fact our currently enacted law. Thus, the presence of every illegal alien in violation of this law directly undercuts our democracy.
If the illegal aliens had properly followed our laws, they would have the right as legal immigrants or as US citizens to access our judicial system without fear of arrest. They have consciously and intentionally chosen not to do so.
The author of this opinion piece is highly disingenuous. He quotes the US Supreme Court to support an organized society and orderly government but avoids the actions of the illegal aliens themselves. After all, it is the illegal aliens who, by illegally coming to the US or illegally staying in US beyond visa limitations, refuse to honor organized society and orderly government from the very get-go. We cannot blame ICE for upholding an organized society and orderly government by doing their job, as they are required to do under our currently enacted laws. Congress can change law but preventing ICE from doing its job under current laws itself undercuts democracy.
33
Are these ICE agents allowed into courts with weapons? If so we are dealing with a problem of an order of magnitude greater than the one you discuss here.
3
If this "immigrant Defense Project" changes its name to "Illegal Alien Defense Project" I'll pay more attention to their opinions.
As for these arrests, ICE could certainly wait until the suspect in question is a bit further away from the courthouse door. But you'd think law professors would be more interested in enforcing laws than evading them.
11
I have experienced the joy of immigration court with my husband who was a legal immigrant. There is nothing in that process that is "due" or even remotely fair. Most Americans believe that the people who are being detained/deported are mostly dangerous criminals with violent arrest records. And some are. But some are not. My husband was a recovering addict who was arrested for a drug offense. He was sentenced to rehab--successfully completed it and never used again. 15 years later immigration picked him up--he had a valid green card, the same job for over 40 years, 2 US citizen kids and a wife, his parent are naturalized citizens. Never in his wildest dreams did he think that would happen. It's nonsensical. But, those are some of the people being deported. Because immigration officials can find them.
Funny thing is if they stop attending court that will be another reason they deserve to be deported.
7
Was that in Australia?
2
This is a huge problem. I've spent three decades as an assistant criminal district attorney. Last year during an all-office meeting, our DA asked staff to raise their hand if they had encountered problems getting victims and witnesses to meet with them or testify because the person feared immigration officials. Almost every trial attorney's hand went up. If victims and witnesses won't testify, perpetrators will go free, and we will have more crime and more victims. ICE's aggressive tactics undermining criminal law enforcement everywhere. This is something everyone should care about.
18
Funny thing.
The same concern exists in every gangster movie and police TV show: criminals avoid police because they fear being nabbed for an unrelated issue. Not just illegal immigrants.
Duh.
4
I’m sure this a tactic of fear and show of force. It’s also the kind of stuff you see in police states.
I remain in awe of how the Trump administration is undermining our institutions, including legal customs and the use of intimidation, turning safe spaces into sites of arrest and violence.
116
So an illegal alien can ask for court protection but started his or her life in America by breaking the law by entering illegally and now demands that the system (started by deeming unnecessary to follow the law) protects him or her?
How about the "clean hands" theory? How can one can argue that an illegal should be protected by the law that he or she deemed so trivial that he or she did not respect its tenants.
10
What part of "illegal alien" do you not understand? Please, please, reply with your understanding of why illegally entering the US is somehow permissible.
4
If a courthouse is a 'safe space' to you lady, you ain't never been at the sticky end of going to court. And, if you think anyone's actions are 'turning' our courts into places with tales of arrest and violence, the truth is you've never spent one hour in a court in your life, have you?
If they're illegal, they have to go.
3
ICE’s courthouse arrests certainly complicate the administration of state and local justice and specifically the conviction of criminals, since they may dissuade potential witnesses who are illegal aliens from testifying; but to suggest that they therefore undercut democracy is a Hail Mary pass attempted in some desperation since the primary argument has excited so little public support that ICE continues to enforce our immigration laws unimpeded. Democracy is quite safe despite such arrests by ICE.
These arrests “derail the lives of the unsuspecting people who are detained”? As if they have a legal right to live here placidly despite having broken our laws? ICE is performing a legitimate police function, and our cops and prosecutors will need to develop other evidence of guilt to convict if that conviction depends largely on the testimony of law-breakers whose crimes those cops and prosecutors have no authority to forgive in some deal arrangement. And what is the author suggesting? That in return for testimony, the illegal alien should be allowed to remain here while others are rounded-up and deported?
There is no way to square the author’s arguments with consistency, primacy of federal law … or even reason. And it’s citizens and lawful visitors whom we should encourage to trust in our courts.
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To all those so concerned with legalities, why aren’t we arresting all the business owners, CEOs, heads of huge corporations who hire illegals since it is clearly against the law? Why? Because they were quite happy to have these people as workers, cheap labor, that could not do anything about unfair working conditions or poor pay without risking deportation. Before you can address the illegal immigration issue you have to put All the cards on the table. A common sense worker card system could have been implemented years ago but big business liked the stream of workers coming across the border. Arrest the employers and I won’t object to enforcing immigration laws. Fair is fair. Go ahead and apply the law you so fervently refer to. But you can’t pick and choose to whom it does or doesn’t apply. Only then will you see some progress in dealing with this issue.
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So your unspoken assertion is that it is high time that ICE started cracking down on schools and churches as well. That is, if you plan on squaring your "arguments with consistency, primacy of federal law … or even reason."
Or, of course, you can rely on the old "have it both ways" argument. And there we find the consistency in your position. Again.
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The idea that democracy is safe because no one cares about it is rich. Then Mr. Luettgen goes into his usual argument by rhetorical question voguing.
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This is really a judicial issue, not a political one. Judges should be able to set rules on the types of enforcement activities that occur in their court-houses.
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Many of the arrests are taking place physically outside the courthouse on public ground. The judges have no control over that space.
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The judges of all states and all other officers of all states must uphold the federal laws of the USA, enacted by the U.S. Congress,, elected by the people of the USA.
Those state judges and state officers must take an oath that they will do so.
The laws of the USA are the Supreme Law of the land.
All that is in the U.S. Constitution Article 6, crustal clear.
"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any state to the Contrary notwithstanding."
Trump critics deride Trump supporters as ignoramuses.
It seems that Trump supporters know more than Trump critics.
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How can a secret warrant leading to indefinite detention and denial of access to an attorney be called "due process?"
If a law enforcement officer can simply refuse to show the warrant how can the public know if there was ever a warrant at all?
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Foreigners don't have constitutional rights.
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In fact, they do. Many foreigners live in this country under different circumstances.
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There is a common-law doctrine, the “privilege from arrest.”
The privilege is firmly entrenched in both English and American jurisprudence."
State courts cannot restrain the behavior of Federal officials. Only a Federal court can do that. However, Federal courts do apply state law. In particular they protect the function of state courts and the democratic nature of state governments.
It is a matter of asking the right court to impose the long standing rule, that you just can't do that. It protects the ability of courts to function. The privilege is done for a public purpose, a public purpose enshrined in the Constitutional duty to safeguard the form and function of state governments.
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Common law has no privilege from arrest. It is in the Constitution and applies only to sitting Congresspersons and Senators while in session and only at the Capitol building. I expect police arrest people all the time in and outside courthouses for any and all kinds of crimes.
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Illegal aliens have broken the law by being here, as law breakers they forfeit the law's protection
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"...firmly entrenched in both English... jurisprudence." Tell that to the Guildford Four, the Birmingham Six, The Maguire Dozen, or the hundreds interned without trial.
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Excuse me, but what's the point of a warrant if an agent refuses to show it?
In a democratic society, uniformed organizations that serve the public are supposedly trained to observe legal requirements and norms, but it doesn't take much in the way of winks and nods from authority for the discipline of agents and their immediate leaders to start breaking down. One liberty here, another liberty there, and its not too hard for ICE agents to feel entitled to act like the police under a dictatorship.
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The point of the warrant is to show it to the judge at the preliminary hearing to establish that the arrest was made under the legal requirements of the Constitution. If an arrest is made and a proper warrant cannot be produced, a couple outcomes will result: the arrest will be nullified, the detainee released, and the officer conducting an illegal arrest will face consequences. As a private citizen, I never expect to be able to inspect a legal instrument outside a courtroom, under the auspices of a judge.
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The lawyer had the right to ask to see the warrant; and the warrant needs to be provided within a *reasonable* period of time.
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If someone EVER says a person is under arrest, they better ask WHY and what the charges are. If they aren't familiar with the incident, DO NOT willing submit to arrest. Say, "I will be retaining an attorney. You may show your warrant to my attorney." Eventually, after some words, you'll be arrested, assuming they have a warrant. Do not speak a word after declaring legal representation, other than vitals (name, birthdate, address, social). If anyone approaches you, keep saying, "Lawyer," over and over, and smiling. They'll get the hint.
Even if you are familiar with the incident, going with the same scenario is in your best interests. It puts you in the best position to defend yourself, regardless as to what took place. Juries are willing to forgive a whole lot if they are presented with a likeable defendant.
Also, if you choose to represent yourself - oh yes, you are entitled to see the warrant.
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Have the courts deemed that any other category of arrest warrants should not be exercised on the courthouse grounds? Any citizen could be afraid of showing up in court for fear of arrest. Do they get a pass, too?
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Apparently only illegals get a pass. Citizens are still subject to arrest. I guess that's okay with the left.
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Due process should never be confused with nor held to be superior to Justice.
Many laws writ have, after application through due process, been proved unjust and then repealed.
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Arresting someone that has a warrant for their arrest, is not unjust, is not illegal, and at the courthouse, they won't have to go very far to lock them up. I don't see the problem with arresting someone there, it happens every day.
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I'm sorry but if there was a warrant for the person's arrest it is the duty of our law enforcement officials to execute it. It in no way undermines democracy. It is an actual part of our democracy in that there was due process prior to the arrest.
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Due process occurs before and after the arrest. It is not limited to the application for a warrant. Persons presented with a warrant are entitled to read the warrant, have their legal representation review it and under many circumstances negotiation of whether apprehension is immediate or not.
Read the Constitution and see what protections we give up when we accede to this kind of misbehavior in court.
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The point of the beginning of this article is that the ICE officer said he had a warrant and refused to show it to the accused and his legal representation. That is a failure to disclose the charges against the person which we are entitled to know under the Constitution.
These are not executed in the court house.
This is the beginning of illegal arrest and seizure which the current administration is trying to do.
However, this weakens your and my rights as citizens. Don't forget that. Ever.
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Yes, IF there was a warrant. Since it wasn't produced we will never know. And since I'VE agents have started to behave like jackbooted thus, I don't think they should get the benefit of the doubt.
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