Let’s hope he succeeds!
I’ve never understood why we are so worried about Iran and not about Saudi Arabia. After all, most of the 9-11 terrorists, all of Wahabi-ism emanates from there. And Iran - while hostile in rhetoric has really done nothing (other than the hostage crisis).
And unfortunately, a dictator is a must for success in the Middle East.
43
Sorry, Tom. You have been fooled. I doubt this is the "Saudi Spring" that you make this out to be. This is a house cleaning by a new king. The 'corruption' in question is actually questionable...how on earth do you define corruption when the entire country's wealth originates in/from the king's personal bank account? The positive spin being put on this makes me suspicious that there is a very sophisticated PR campaign being waged via some western PR company. The clerics are quite..but are plotting. Just wait. This is the calm before the storm.
139
I find it strange that with maybe a year, Tom has changed his view so drastically. His previous piece "Saudi Arabia - the ISIS that made it" to this article is quite confounding. Saudi Arabia remains one of the most oppressed societies in the world with their only success being the export of a totally distorted form of Islam to all corners of the world which has resulted in the mass indoctrination of Wahhabi Terrorists across the world. Whilst the fake rulers of this kingdom, wallow in their ill-gotten wealth and splurge on $500m yachts on a whim, they are able to starve Millions of other Muslims in Yemen and allow a whole countries like Yemen and Syria to get destroyed without any remorse and in pursuit of their Fanatical beliefs.
They have mastered the art of flattery and know how to manipulate fools like Trump, and I really think that by offering you (Tom) a good meal and showing you a good time, they have managed to use the same tactic on you.
115
Very disturbing apologia for Saudi Arabia from TF. While MBS may be introducing certain internal reforms, he is rash and ruthless and eager to start wars on multiple fronts. Saudi Arabia's is conducting a vicious war in Yemen in which they are bombing hospitals and other civilian infrastructure and carrying out indiscriminate attacks, killing and injuring civilians, while bombing hospitals and other civilian infrastructure. His eagerness to violently engage Iran bodes ill for stability in the Middle East. No, MBS is not a statesman and Friedman is giving him considerable cover.
94
I recently completed 5 years working and living in Saudi Arabia.
Saudi culture is fundamentally "conservative" in that it does not readily embrace change, and when it does change it tends to happen in small steps.
Nonetheless, I feel it is on the cusp of major changes. The younger generation, that of MSB, is biting at the bit to free itself from the constraints of a very narrow culture. MANY young people have traveled and been educated outside KSA. People go regularly, on weekend trips, to Dubai, where they see a very different way of living. Paris is only a 6 hour flight from Riyadh and flights leave daily.
I did that flight many times myself. It always amused me to see how the Saudi women, with the obvious acceptance by their male companions, would quickly shed their hijab once the plane had left Saudi air space. Even people's manners would change. Within KSA, I, as a western male, would not speak casually with Saudi women. But on those flights, people opened up and no one gave it a second thought to have friendly conversations with strangers.
I managed several young Saudis, including a young woman of 25. During the time I was there the company I worked for opened itself to female employees and I was happy to be able to add one to my department. She had a B.A. from an American university and is cosmopolitan in her world view. She is typical of a whole new class of young, educated professionals who can potentially bring vast change to the kingdom.
I wish them success!
58
Sounds like the Royal Family is trying to diplomatically tell the world that they are a normal family with normal problems. Unfortunately, many countries are not governed by one family but by its citizens.
14
Friedman is optimistic, but not naïve - he repeatedly observes the obstacles to reform and modernization in Saudi Arabia, including MBS's own shortcomings.
Many of the comments say that reform has to come from the bottom up, but top-down reform has historically been a fairly common means of reform in absolute monarchies. You have to start somewhere.
And many of the comments say that the Iraq War didn't bring democracy to Iraq, so therefore everything Friedman ever says about anything must be wrong. Aside from the bizarre logic, the Iraq War ended only a few years ago. Democracies don't spring full-blown from the brows of dictatorships, especially brutal tribal dictatorships like Saddam Hussein's. The Korean War led to democracy in South Korea, but only if you measure 30 years out from the end of the war. West German and Japanese democracy didn't spring full-blown from those countries' World War II surrenders, but from many years of Western occupation.
MBS may fail. He may fall victim to the temptations of power, he may be blocked by forces in the royal family or in the clergy, he may lose popularity if the Saudi economy tanks. But right now, he is the single best hope for reform in Saudi Arabia. He is loosening restraints on women, on contact with the outside world, with the flow of information inside the country. He is diversifying the oil economy. We should support him, not snipe at him from the sidelines.
politicsbyeccehomo.wordpress.com
15
Many of the people who snipe at MBS and Saudi Arabia's move for reform now in this readers' comments blog are the first people to make excuses for Iran's theocratic dictatorship and Obama's decision to coddle them for eight years as a "reset" -- along with his original "reset" with Russia -- about the same time his administration approved that uranium deal (Remember when Obama ridiculed Romney during the 2012 presidential debate for saying Russia was still our greatest adversary? My how time flies.). I wouldn't take them too seriously.
3
It is impossible for an American--or any outsider--to analyze or judge what is happening in Saudi Arabia today. Tom Friedman is carrying water for the favorite son of a man who has been King for two years. Why? Does Mr Friedman actually believe what he has been told?
This fable reminds me of when Prince Bandar visited the Bush ranch in Texas, the President threw his arm around Bandar and mugged for the cameras.
41
The Saudis are pursuing this incredibly vicious war on women and children in Yemen because the Houthis have the stink of Shi'ism on them. They are making trouble with Qatar because Qatar doesn't hate Iran enough. How is this any kind of spring? How is this reform? This is a purge, plain and simple, by people who are perhaps the most out-of-touch royal family in the world. To call it an Arab Spring is an abomination. (There may be a patina of westernization to encourage more partnerships with European and U. S. corporations.)
61
USA military contractors are reportedly torturing the opposition. the Saudis are using weapons Trump sold them and blockading food supplies to starve Yemeni children. Don't fall for the window dressing. this is an n Arab winter of discontent. . However, the Saudi Royal family is quite masterful at continued manipulation of US Presidents. Petroleum is their calling card.
57
This is not the beginning of a "reform" movement but simply a consolidation of power by the emerging leader.
Saudi Arabia is not about to embrace change and liberalization - they are working very hard to resist it from all fronts.
Check out the other initiatives by the young price - savage war and blockade in Yemen, pressuring the leader of Lebannon to resign, and many other efforts to show a 'winning' and muscular foreign policy.
Freidman has mis-read the tea leaves bigly on this issue.
64
Amended.
'We met at night at his family’s ornate adobe-walled palace in Ouja, north of Riyadh.' ~ Thomas L Friedman, NYT
Fact check. Search for 'Ouja' using Google. You'll find nothing. Look for 'Ouja' in Saudi Arabia in Wikipedia. Ditto.
Why? Because it would appear that the standard rendition in English is not 'Ouja' but 'Al Auja' or 'Al Awja'. Specifically, other news sites refer not to 'Al Auja' per se but to the 'Al Auja Palace'. In other words, the palace itself goes by this name, rather than a locality north of Riyadh.
Further, according to the Saudi Commission for Tourism and National Heritage (SCTH):
"Al Dir'iya's land occupies the fertile curve of Wadi Hanifa on the outskirts of Riyadh, the capital city of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Al Awja was its traditional name and its modern popular name being Al Dir'iya."
https://www.scta.gov.sa/en/Antiquities-Museums/InternationallyRegistered...
10
Is Iran really comparable to the Nazis? Ol' Tommy F. drops that one on us as though it requires no further explanation. The only explanation to be found here is that they supposedly control four Arab countries. Even if I accept that Iran controls Lebanon (which it doesn't), the parallel to Hilter doesn't make any sense. Hitler invaded and annexed several countries, and he used oppression and mass slaughter of minorities as tools of political control. So that leads me to a couple of questions: would you rather be a religious or ethnic minority in Saudi Arabia or Iran? And how many neighboring countries has Iran invaded lately?
45
What a nauseating exercise in a...-kissing! Are you kidding me? The MBS coup and purge is more of a mafia-style settling of accounts than any "Spring! A corrupt princeling (remember the $500 million yacht") moves pre-emptively to quell any attacks from his rivals. This ain't no spring, Mr. Friedman!
54
How lightly, Mr. Friedman, you thread on the hundreds of thousands of Yemeni corpses who received death as a direct result of your interviewee's policies...
48
MBS is part of the corruption. He should arrest himself first. His actions amounts to a shake down of his wealthy cousins in full view of his other wealthy cousins to show them who is boss. He has already frightened investors away, who are in a great hurry to take their assets out of KSA. Egypt and UAE. This has disastrous consequences for the region's economy which is based on trade. This is no "Saudi Spring". His line of comparing the Ayatollah to Hitler and using words like "appeasement" is right out of the Hasbarah propaganda book that the Hasbarah trolls have been entertaining us with the last few years. Honestly, if Israelis want to be less obvious in the manipulation of regional politics they should come up with new terms that are not easily traced back to them. If MBS is accused of cooperating with Israelis he will become a target for any of the pro-Palestinian extremist movements. Israelis are making a big mistake of concentrating their efforts on one person. Even if he is the crown prince.
30
Not impressed and not holding my breath that they will respect and tolerate Christians and Jews.
20
This editorial offers nothing new. Mr. Friedman's fawning references to MBS sounds like a paid ad for the prince. Readers with long memories will remember most of Mr. Friedman's predictions were not only naive but did not come true.
32
Exactly what, praytell, indicates corruption in the Kingdom of Saud?
9
MBS going after corruption is like Trump firing his cabinet member for lying. What about the $500mm he spent on a yacht that happened to catch his eye last year while vacationing? did that money come from his dad's piggy bank?
He is a power hungry monarch who is trying to crush any opposition for his ascend to throne. All this reform is just a divergence.
26
I have always thought that Mr Friedman columns have become shallower and shallower by age. So I stopped reading them for a while. I read this superficial analysis. It appears that MrvFriedman think that the biggest sponsor of ISIS is doing a reform. In reality this is consolidation of power and wealth. SBM and his entire family has been the biggest sponsor of ISIS and AlQeda and nothing has changed.
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/11/24/world/middleeast/mosque-attack-egy... Stories&pgtype=Homepage
33
Seems like Tom Friedman drank the cool aid. He may be deluded by "access" into thinking that he has insight into a "silent majority".
30
Yoo-hoo Tom, can you please tell MSB yo not attack sufis in Egypt. Call his dogs off. Enough killing. It is not part of progress it is regressing to the dark ages.
10
No mention of what's going on in Yemen? Have you seen the pictures of dying children, Mr. Friedman. You might have asked at least one question about that. In the four hours you interviewed M.B.S. (how cute to use initials, how cuddly) untold numbers of children died. Nice puff piece.
18
Tom says "he (the Saudi prince) praised President Trump as “the right person at the right time”. American people knew that before and elected him as President, but Tom had to learn this fact from a Saudi prince. Still, I doubt that he will be able to say that to his liberal friends in the media.
Tom think that what happened in Saudi Arabia after 1979 is bad Islam and what is going to happen under the new Prince will be good Islam. Don't bet on it. When the oppression that is happening in Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries is based on Koran, and Mohammed's teachings and actions at his time, there is something inherently wrong in Islam. When you give Islam supremacy in your country, that itself is against modernism.
7
That Friedman would characterize the ambitious prince MBS, who rounds up and tortures his cousins under the guise of an "anti-corruption campaign," as a revolutionary is quite disgusting. This celebratory article is telling of why the American public is so misinformed about what is happening in the peninsula. A child dies every 15 minutes in Yemen as a result of the Saudi war-induced famine, and this is what the newspaper of record has to offer us?
20
I foresee the corrupt Saudi princes fleeing Wahabi executioners' swords.
3
Not one peep from Friedman about the carnage being visited upon Yemen by the "reform-minded" Saudi regime. Any bets on how long it takes before Friedman is advocating war on Iran? (ultimately, what the Saudis want.)
Autocrats and warmongers of the world: If you want to get your propaganda on the pages of the leading US newspaper, all it takes is treating the Times's most gullible columnist to an extravagant dinner.
15
Can Saudi Arabia under MBS withstand the expected oncoming withering terror attacks?
3
I respect Thomas Friedman and look forward to reading his columns. This one, however, is misguided and I hate to see him tainted as yet another hired pen for the corrupt Saudi family. Nothing in his article mentions the atrocities of Saudi-led criminal war on Yemen, nothing about torturing political dissidents, nothing about the role of Saudis in creating ISIS and the destruction of Iraq and Syria, and nothing about MBS' own corruption (buying a yacht for $550 million, as an example). Instead, this article is nothing but a pathetic laundry list of praising an arrogant, corrupt war criminal. Very disappointed, Mr. Friedman.
12
In the midst of an effusively optimistic essay on this latest edition of an Arab Spring, Mr. Friedman tosses off this obiter dicta: "Only a fool would predict its success ..." Precisely. Some may consider MBS's tactics - accusing one's opponents of corruption and locking them up - a step forward, but it differs little from the purges Kim Jong-Un carries out in North Korea. Even assuming that MBS is entirely sincere in his desire for reform, he will inevitably stir up reactionary rage among the Wahhabi clerics and their followers, and deep resentment within his own extended family. Can he carry out liberal reforms while constantly fearing the assassin's knife?
Historically, efforts at top-down reform, which all too easily morphs into autocracy, have a dismal track record, with examples ranging from Hitler to Pol Pot to Hugo Chavez. Even "successful" reformers like Ataturk or Mao leave behind a decidedly mixed legacy. It is not cynicism to remain wary of MBS.
6
An Arab spring that so far has 1 prince dead, another that has disappeared, 100s of people whose assets have been confiscated while they are locked up.
Yup, sounds like an Arab Spring that's going on without much objection from the NYT or other media here, because it's not Turkey after all, but despotic regime that happens to be in bed now with our so-called ally in ME.
Well done Mr. Friedman.
11
This is the same Tom Friedman who told us back in 2002 that the overthrow of Saddam Hussein would create a pacific, secularist Iraq, some sort of Arab West Germany, and who later said that we'd have won the Iraq War when Salman Rushdie could give a lecture in Baghdad. Well, we know how all that turned out.
As the New Testament says, faith is the evidence of things not seen, the substance of things hoped for. Friedman is such a sensible, reasonable bourgeois liberal that he cannot imagine that the rest of the world doesn't naturally want to live by the values of the Upper West Side. That made him a sucker for Dick Cheney, and it's making him a sucker for the current ruler of Saudi Arabia, whose agenda is to gear up for the coming Sunni-Shia religious war with Iran, and for his supporters in the United States like Trump's good friend Tom Barrack.
14
Thoughts:
If the author of this column were not the same Thomas Friedman who so enthusiastically endorsed and supported the Iraq invasion, I might be able to take him and his thoughts seriously. But...
As for M.B.S., George Orwell taught us ("1984") “We know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means; it is an end.”
Christianity has had its Enlightenment. Islam has not had an analogue to the European Enlightenment and, probably can not in its current state. There is no supporting environment for Lockean ideas in current Muslim culture.
Muslim rationalism, as put forward by the Mu’tazila, and the discipline of rational theological discourse, kalam, have been condemned as heretical by mainstream traditionalist Islam since the 10th century. Until this changes, and rationalism and kalam are accepted by Muslim culture, Lockean ideas will find no support.
8
Saudi lobbyist at work. I am sure they are not short of money.
13
There you go again Tom. The last time you had stars in your eyes about an unconventional route to modernization in the Middle East, you were throwing your support behind the impending Bush-Cheney invasion of Iraq. You assured us that you were clever enough to envision that after Saddam was removed, a reconfigured Iraq would lead the way to the unraveling of the rest of the autocracies in the region. You said the administration was right about the invasion, but for the wrong reason. As it turned out you were right about the aftermath, but with the wrong result. Iraq as reconfigured by the foolish policies of the American invaders, was a nearly failed Shia state from the beginning fighting against an armed Sunni insurrection. Sure enough, many other Middle East countries have been unraveling right and left, ever since. (The exception is Iran, a little of a disappointment there, eh Tom.) Your modus operandi is to find a rationale for supporting the Middle East policies of the current administration in Washington, even though you claim to reject its thinking. That way you prevent then-current Washington policymakers from ignoring you.
13
Disappointing to see such naive op-analysis in the Times and from someone who should know better. How many times has ‘anti-corruption’ been used in the region as a pretext for attacking potential dissonants. Sure these princes may have been corrupt but no more so than anyone else in this ruling class. C’mon Tom. C’mon Times. The Middle East deserves more thoughtful coverage than this.
12
No one should be fooled by Saudi wealth and the gadgetry and (apparent) sophistication it allows them to buy from the West.
In reality, the Saudis and the repressive murderously intolerant version of Islam that they underwrite and propagate, have about 1,000 years of civilization to catch up with.
8
Thomas Friedman hasn't been this disingenuous since he was a cheerleader for the Neo-Con war of aggression against Iraq in 2003. This puff piece about the despotic and clownish MBS is particularly embarrassing coming out the same day as the Daily Mail report that high ranking Saudi officials are being tortured by the "Blackwater" mercenaries of Eric Prince on the payroll of the UAE thug ruler MBZ. Our beloved "top-down" Arab Spring "reformer" MBS is reportedly personally directing the torture according to highly placed sources in the Kingdom. I hope MBS had time to wash his hands and change his robes from the torture sessions before he met the breathless Mr. Friedman. This would all be laughable if MBS in between torture sessions and fantasies about robot cities on the Red Sea was not also directing the genocidal onslaught on Yemen with full US complicity. As long as the Saudis do Israel's bidding and engage in massively corrupt arms deals with the US, our intellectually and morally bankrupt establishment "experts" will try to perfume any stench. Does anyone still wonder "why do they hate us" and "why do we face a terrorist threat"?
24
Not one mention of the word Yemen. Disgraceful.
13
A strong contender for this year's Walter Duranty award!
7
Thomas, did you ask MBS whether he paid for the 400 million dollar yacht through his 401K savings?
Last week you were wondering where he got the money, this week you’re drinking the anticorruption kool aid.
13
I think prince Mohammed came in the right time to save the country. Great goals, yet many challenging issues. However, his brave steps in the last three weeks, tells a lot.
Opinion it is. Reads like a (well paid) (bought) piece. The gushing language and the blind praise. Tribal war is all about back-stabbing. Saudi Arabia the great everlasting friend of the USA will always stab the USA in the back. They rejoiced at Bin Laden's success. They are taught the hate all-non-believers from primary school. Drink the Kool-Aid my friends.
13
While we were trampling ourselves at malls on Black Friday it has a total different meaning for the people at that place of worship in Egypt . How sad!
4
It is ironic that the Saudi Prince thinks that muslim travel banning Trump is "the right man at the right time".
3
Must have been the best meal of his life. Just saying.
9
Don’t hold your breath for significant change in Saudi Arabia—radical or otherwise. The Saudis are the masters of “bait and switch.”
5
I have heard a version of Friedman's joke told by the president who led the failed Iraqi invasion that Friedman championed. It went like this:
"I looked the man in the eye. I found him to be very straightforward and trustworthy. . . . I was able to get a sense of his soul; a man deeply committed to his country and the best interests of his country."
It was a bad joke then. It is a bad joke now. Stop it.
9
How many wrong predictions does a person get before we can strip him of the Expert title?
18
I have had the highest respect for Mr Friedman but after reading this article, I was left aghast. He drank the Koolaid!
How can such a mature journalist swallow the nonsense that MBS fed him. This is beyond belief. I cannot even begin to critique it as is so factually wrong. This diminishes you seriously, Mr. Friedman!
9
Imagine you are living in the 21st Century and there still exists a 'Kingdom.' This is what primitive make believe fairy tales talk of. It cannot be real. In fact, it isn't real. It only exists because of politically correct pretend dogma. However, if such a wretched 'kingdom' did exist that considered women to be unequal, denied the right to vote, drive, be treated worse than animals, such a place would be heathen pariah, think apartheid. The make believe kingdom of Saudi Arabia fits this definition, as do most other backward middle east (lands). Such violent primitive lands need to be ostracized, isolated, boycotted by democratic civilized Western Countries. They need to be declared terrorist nations, much the same as North Korea.
6
"Indeed, M.B.S. instructed me: “Do not write that we are ‘reinterpreting’ Islam — we are ‘restoring’ Islam to its origins"
I'm curious what else did M.B.S "instruct" Tom Friedman to say? Maybe this entire article?
10
Thanks Frank, all I need to know who the bad guys are is to watch who you are shilling for. Why bother trying to clean up the reputation of America's proxy allies though? SA about to start a war with Iran or something?
BTW Anyone looking for the real deal on the middle east should check out the Moon of Alabama blog.
4
I got nothin’. Is this satire gone wrong?
7
Friedman, get serious! You are guilty of wishful thinking! Saudi Arabia is and will remain a primary source of Islamic terrorism worldwide.
7
Mr Friedman has a long record of being wrong on just about everything in the Middle East, yet somehow remains a celebrity commentator on all issues. There's a degree of sycophantism toward the Prince here that makes it worthless.
12
It is time for the liberals to realize that their so-called thought leaders are all shills for large corporations, globalization, the oil industry and so on... these guys are no better than the republicans and are as much against your interests as the republicans.
9
It's fascinating that Iran controls four Arab capitols. In the fifties Iranian women had at least as many freedoms as Saudi women in that decade.
1
It is just a matter of a few years before the country implodes. Why else would he have bought the big yacht?
A few more catastrophic events. Then:
For producers of oil, gas and coal throughout the planet a national tax (Negative Externality Tax – let’s call it NET) will be levied at the point of extraction; defined as that point where the product enters the national and/or international market. That national tax will be increased year by year over a ten/fifteen year period. It will therefore become integral to the pricing of all domestic goods and services in the country and the export pricing of goods and services. It will spell the end of Saudi society.
But not the end of Homo sapiens.
www.InquiryAbraham.com
1
Sure, a kingdom run on family lines, committing war crimes in Yemen, the founder of Al Qaeda, the source of much of pollution for global climate change and non-stop middle east wars is the good guy. I'm open to seeing better, but I'm dubious.
4
This piece à wrong in so many ways.
Let’s start by an isolated point: the article mentions that during the life of Mohammed there was music, mixed gender leisure, and tolerance of other religions..
Only problem is then Mohammed wrote a book (dictated by god) which condemns all of this in no incertain terms.
6
The Vegas odds (ok, it's the vaguest odds) are 1 in 50 that Thomas Friedman's predictions for the future Saudi regime will come true. Tom, if you get this, I'll give you the 50 to 1 odds. What have you got to lose? (to quote a Trumpism). You already lost credibility with Iraq, and with your flat earth globalization metaphor which will overtake nationalism and ethnic and religious strife.
You've made some insightful observations over the years. But it seems that you get carried away with putting them together into a Happy Days are Here Again scenario.
6
This seems to be a desperate attempt by SA to do virtually anything to make sure the US has their back on Iran. SA and this prince could not care less about modernizing their country. One of the princes caught up in the purge, Bin Talal was more in favor than modernization and where did that get him? A place on the persona no grata list.
On a note of bad timing, it is kind of ironic that Saudi women are finally gaining the right to drive now- right when the world is coming out with self driving cars. Under the old regime would they have been permitted to sit in a self driving car w/o male supervision?
4
Friedman is right about 1979 being a pivotal year. It deepened the already strong relationship between American and Saudi Arabia. The British helped to form the unholy alliance between the House of Saud - from the backwards Najd region - and Wahhabism, also from backwards Najd - an 18th century anti-modern, anti-moderation version of Islam, with roots in 7th century Kharijites' fanaticism, 9th century Ahmad ibn Hanbal's most rigid Sunni school, 13th century Ibn Taymiyyah's ok to attack Muslim rulers post invading Mongols converting to Islam. Wahhabism was always in opposition to all other version of Islam and declared Shia as apostates (subject to death) and opposition to all other religions. And in opposition to the moderate Islam of the Ottoman Empire, which is why British supported it. FDR/American supported for the oil. Post-1979, we supported Saudi jihadists - Bin Laden - in Afghanistan, which led to Al Qaeda and Taliban. Saudi's were our counter-weight to the theocratic thugs in charge in Iran post-Shah, our CIA backed brutal monarch. Going back to 1979 Wahhabism is not going solve the problem of Saudi funded Wahhabism destroying all moderate and modernizing version of Islam. Saudis can give up Wahhabism and absolute monarchy - that's real reform - then we can talk.
6
Sometimes Friedman sees the world the way he wants it to look, rather than the depressing reality. The Iraq invasion was predicted by many in the punditry to become a mess. Not Friedman - he loudly cheered on the neocons. I know he has given his mea culpas for using his column to promote that decision, but has he learned anything?
It's fine to look for the good in people, but let's not be taken in yet again by promises of ponies and rainbows. The Saudi's military blockades of Yemen and Qatar should give Friedman pause. This is not a good omen.
7
"M.B.S. impulsively bought a yacht while on vacation in the south of France — it just caught his fancy in the harbor — from its Russian owner for $550 million. Did that money come out of his piggy bank? Savings from his Riyadh lemonade stand? From his Saudi government 401(k)?".
That was from your previous article Mr. Friedman and I don't understand your change of heart. I understand he may be doing some positive things that deserved to be praised but lets call a spade a spade - It's like trump condemning sexual harrassment. The only people that are qualified to fight corruption are the ones that aren't corrupt themselves.
6
Nice try Mr Friedman, but SA is a royal dictatorship and this is nohing other than an autocratic purge of political enemies.
8
If Friedman wanted to ask some tough questions, he could have simply pulled out this New York times article: Saudis and Extremism: ‘Both the Arsonists and the Firefighters’ https://nyti.ms/2kRd7pW
Sir, will you pledge to stop funding the spread of extremist Wahhabism hatred and violence as described here: "The reach of the Saudis has been stunning, touching nearly every country with a Muslim population ... Support has come from the Saudi government; the royal family; Saudi charities; and Saudi-sponsored organizations ... There is a broad consensus that the Saudi ideological juggernaut has disrupted local Islamic traditions in dozens of countries — the result of lavish spending on religious outreach for half a century, estimated in the tens of billions of dollars. The result has been amplified by guest workers, many from South Asia, who spend years in Saudi Arabia and bring Saudi ways home with them. In many countries, Wahhabist preaching has encouraged a harshly judgmental religion, contributing to majority support in some polls in Egypt, Pakistan and other countries for stoning for adultery and execution for anyone trying to leave Islam.
10
Meanwhile, a "modernizing" Saudi Arabia is responsible for mass murder in Yemen, the destabilization of Qatar and maliciously unhelpful meddling in Lebanon. Perhaps a more medieval Saudi would better suit Middle Eastern stability.
10
Mr. Friedman is on another binge of optimism of the Middle East; he is once again so easily played by those he as access to. Perhaps this is why Friedman thought invading Iraq was a good idea and later he doubled down post Iraq invasion as he stated it was the “big stick” needed to “pop” the “terrorism bubble” when Iraq had nothing to do with the attacks of 911. How’d that big pop work out? Exactly. Perhaps Friedman should have asked why Saudi Arabia (SA) was the third largest purchaser of weapons in 2016 and the fourth largest in 2017 only behind the USA, China, and Russia. Are we to believe that Isis or Al Qaeda does not receive substantive financial support from Saudi Arabia’s wealthy reactionaries?
A more progressive SA against a background of exponential weapons buying and proxy wars is a dichotomy Friedman and others are too eager to accept. MBS is simply trying to spin Sunnis as our progressive friends, surely America will help him destroy their Shiite enemies like Iran?
America needs to extricate itself from this religious civil war between Shiites, Sunnis, and Jewish imperialism. I don’t trust the Saudis, Iranians, or the Israelis, some want our blood and some want our treasure or both for their geopolitical aims. No thank you, we’ve already given enough treasure and blood. I don’t want to see the next Ken Burns history on our disastrous Middle East wars where the press, politicians, and military leaders admit they got it wrong and yet continued the wars.
8
I cheer the prince’s efforts to discredit cclerics, but his own vulnerability from hypocrisy is equivalent to their’s.
3
Friedman reports the Saudi version of what' happening based on the interview, and he is personally optimistic. I see no reason to be otherwise until we see the actual results. Still early days.
When the day comes that non-Muslims can get visa-om-arrival for tourism I'll be a true believer.
3
The Wall Street Journal has a different take--he is giving a little more social freedom but cracking down on political dissenters. I will buy that version instead of Friedman's --
4
TF did you really buy the ten percent leakage as the actual and legitimate predicate for the crackdown? Why the fawning acceptance of all this? I know I am jaded but ten percent just doesn't shock the conscience, it doesn't even raise my eyebrows.
Especially with the Team Trump blessing screaming "look out" to us all, why buy the prince's talking points hook-line-sinker? You could have saved yourself the wearying four hour meeting and just written up the PowerPoint. What gives?
2
IF it succeeds. Salman and his son have position power but is that sufficient to overcome a royal family larger than a marine division, an inert populace, an untried army, and the Wahabists? Reform from the top in Moslem countries has a spotted record of success, as Prince Reza Pahlavi might tell you. Let’s postpone the victory lap.
1
Friedman was a breathless cheerleader for the Iraq war, and is now paving the way for an Iran war. He excels in simple seductive story-telling, but real change is far more complex.
Remember when toppling Saddam would lead to democracy? Now we have M.B.S, one man who is staunchly anti-corruption and who will modernize Saudi Arabia. Would you bet on it? Or, on more "creative destruction" in the region.
More likely, instigate war and continue the fragmentation of the region.
11
I find this opinion piece to border on awe before a young dictator who represents the peak of a religious aristocracy that has no idea about democratic framing and represents one of the most fanatically dictatorial theocracies in the world. At least Iran is a parliamentary theocracy with a Constitution derived from the previous monarchy of the Shah. Saudi Arabia possesses not a single element of democracy. To call what MBS is doing a new 'Arab Spring' is patently ridiculous. The Arab Spring represented a bottom up attempt to loosen the bonds of aristocracy. MBS is using a top down dictatorial approach devoid of any sense of real justice or judicial process. Where can we discern 'Springtime' in a mafia-like crackdown, which houses millionaires at the Ritz Carleton lockup and then extorts 70% of their wealth for release. No inditements here. No judicial process. Only raw power administered from the top. And where did MBS get all those millions to instantaneously shell out for his yacht? Thomas, In all that heady atmosphere of the Saudi royal court, where you had to wait so long for MBS to deign to appear to chat with you, were you so overcome by the honor of finally getting to see him, that you lost the sense ofproportionality that usually characterizes your opinion pieces?
8
It's refreshing to read Mr. Friedman in such a bubbly mood. Even his vocabulary is upbeat and liberated, as when describing the ruling Saudi family as "freaked out" by events in 1979 - and of course then as now, "Le Freak, c'est Sheikh". But I won't be coming on down to the 54 to party into the Saudi Spring with Friedman just yet: Saudi reform is indeed better late than never, but I fear it remains too little, too late.
1
And not a word about Raif Badawi. As long as he remains a hostage in his own country, all these ‘reforms’ are nothing more than window dressing.
3
I have often wished that TF would recognize the Saudi’s hijacking of “Sunni” Islam. From their inception as a tribal conglomerate to an expansionist force in the mid 18th CE, the Saud family rose to prominence allied with Wahhabi clerics. Where Sunni Islam's religious and civic legal expressions were built upon hundreds of years of jurisprudence, Wahhabism arose to directly oppose and dismantle it. To put it mildly, they were the equivalent of our constitutional “originalists” - those who wish to interpret the constitution (and only the constitution) literally -think Anton Scalia, as opposed to our constructionists- think Ginsburg, who wish to respect our body of law and allow it to evolve with the demands of the times for the good of all. Classical Sunni clerics pondered a rich precedent of centuries of legal decisions by the brightest and most educated minds of their times to create direction that benefited the Umma (the whole community). Saudi clerics disavow such tools and resources and are known for their authoritarian and arbitrary decisions that have little grounding in Holy text, and smell of whim and misogyny.
Sadly, the sheer wealth of the Saudis has hijacked the complicated and dynamic history of classic Sunni Islam- which is in itself worth studying for the times when it expressed a more tolerant and peaceful Islam. If MBS wants to elevate his country and image, it will not be to his own history that he looks.
5
Interesting talk of reforms, but no mention of massive war crimes against Yemen?
6
I have seen quite a few negative comments about Friedman's interpretation of Crown Prince Salman's efforts and about Crown Prince himself.
I grew up in India and have lived majority of my life in the West. I have studied Pan-Islamic behaviors carefully. I have seen country after muslim majority country divert from its drive to tolerance and education mid-stream and steer hard towards fundamentalism. And at the core of it was events of 1979 -- when both keepers, one of Sunni and other Shia Islam namely Saudi Arabia and Iran respectively, veered extremely hard towards the right/conversatism.
Make no mistake: there is an absolute direct co-relation with how Islam has taken a dark tone over last 35 to 40 years and Iran and Saudi diversion to fundamentalism. Ironically enough, US and USSR cold war had a lot to do with it as US installed a corrupt Shah in Iran, as opposed to a democratically elected leader. And it was the usurping of the Shah that resulted in 1979 events.
Hence, despite Salman's obvious flaws, and him putting the innocent people of Yemen's head in between the Iran-Saudi power struggle vise, no one has even attempted to do 1/100th of what he trying to do in the right direction.
From a pragmatist's point of view: if he really follows through on what he says, it will have a huge positive affect in billions of people's life including lifting the evil cloud of terrorism that hangs over every Westerner's daily life today.
4
Bravo!! I am excited for a new Saudi Arabia. It will be excellent for Israel and others will n the region, not to mention us here.
Bravo for President Trump's presidency leading the support here. He IS the right President at this time. He's also taking no guff from North Korea. We like it!
1
I seem to recall the Shah of Iran tried to drag his country, with the more conservative elements kicking and screaming, into the 20th Century. In the end, it didn't work out so well. The brutality of his internal security services wasn't enough to keep him on the throne, and the kicking and screaming crowd ended up dragging the country back to the 8th Century.
1
The Arab Spring was about democracy. Saudi Arabia is one of the world's last absolute monarchies. There can be no spring without a constitution that lets the people lead, not monarchs.
6
I'm skeptical to say the least, but I hope to see Saudi Arabia move in the direction Mr. Friedman describes.
Davos-style grand vision is hard, and close to impossible, to implement in Saudi. The geography is at best difficult - what a desert can provide, once oil revenue is drastically reduced? General population is poorly educated (education is mostly religious), adverse to work (menial to skilled-based work is done by foreigners), and share the same rent-seeking culture than the Al Saud extended family (royal is a misnomer, it is a tribal society). Women driving or concert is a micro-change which does not affect the overall set of issues.
MBS has blundered unhinged in the past 3 years; Yemen where 10,000 civilians have died by the Saudi's warfare, the Qatari fiasco which has economically impacted the GCC, and in general his adventurism (against Iran, oil production, etc). It is funny that he and his father paint themselves as uncorrupt. They stole in profusion, otherwise how a young man of 29 could buy a yacht of 420M Euros ?
All this will not much matter, but the Saudis, have created, funded and expanded Salafism, which is responsible for the deaths of many in the Arab world and Europe. The petrodollars have blinded the political class in the Western world, but this is not a regime you can compromise with.
4
He is consolidating power and eliminating rivals. Look for the future Saudi Arabia to be even more ruthless, corrupt and authoritarian.
6
Mr Friedman, With all my respect, your article came as a PR exercise in favor of MBS. Under his leadership, Saudi Arabia, openly supported extremist organizations that destabilized and destroyed Syria, relentlessly tried to destabilize Lebanon and is responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands in Yemen. In his all confrontational approach to Iran, he is igniting a Sunni-Shi'a war that will last for very long time. His current exercise is nothing more than cleaning house to pave the road for an even more dictatorial governance in Saudi Arabia.
5
I was feeling hopeful as I read this piece. That is until I got to the part where M.B.S. thinks is right for the U.S. That makes me question everything he is doing and his judgement. Trump is trying to make what most of us consider unfair or corrupt legal. Perhaps this is M.B.S.'s ultimate aim too.
1
Congratulations to the Prince for opening up his country and did several right things about individual freedom. However, a word of caution may be in order even at this early stage. Don't fall into the trap that the West is now in - excesses and obsessions with "human rights" and worship of the false god of democracy, as some commenters are already advocating for the reforms to be genuine. If you are competent, govern well and look after your people, just get on with the job. The West may trumpet its freedom, democracy and so on. But it is suffering from the consequences of its own extremism: incompetent leaders, a house divided in the name of political freedom, paralyzed inactions over gun deaths, individual overindulgence with a runaway drug epidemic, blind self-centeredness in an open society while preaching from high horses to the rest of the world how great is their democracy and how we must all be like them.
May you succeed in your reforms.
3
Hanging previous regime elites upside down and having mercenaries beat them until they hand over their cash is NOT demonstrating tolerance. He's showing us that he will be just another in a long line of autocratic tyrants who will enrich himself off Saudi oil. Yes, he will placate the populace with additional freedoms. Just enough to maintain control, for life.
4
Although it seems like MBS is transforming Saudi Arabia, let's not forget that many a reformer has turned into a murderous dictator.
And why? Because they can. Because they begin to fear the very people they began helping.
Because it's true that power corrupts.
2
I've never had reason to doubt Mr. Friedman. But my concern with all this illusion of change is they're still a dictatorship and Jared Kushner and liar-in-chief visited them prior to being elected and Kushner's relationship continues with them.
Our liar-in-chief also had grand plans for its base. No cuts to SS, Medicare, Medicaid - lie, lie, lie. But it sure sounded good to those who never saw through his lies. Why do we have ties with Saudi Arabia now? All of it's suspect. We'll have to wait and see how this infamously corrupt country treats opposition in the future rather than a mass roundup of dissenters, which I can easily see happening in our own country.
1
Western journalists seem to be fond of "Arab Spring" that has never actually existed. Saudi to revive the concept created by US? Far from it. Its relationship with US is cooling, there is no way it will toe the US line. A couple of new actions/implementations do not tell the full story, they may only show that someone is desperately trying to consolidate absolute power..
Of course MBS is in a hurry. He knows his oil wealth will evaporate quickly within the next 10 to 20 years. The pressure is on. He’a got about a decade or so to bring his nation from the 8th century all the way to the 21st. It’s doubtful he will make it, especially while simultaneously waging a cold war with Iran that is getting hotter by the hour.
1
MBS is fighting two wars on two fronts.
In the domestic front, he is fighting corruption and Wahhabi Islam. This article talks about it and he will and should win on this front.
But there is another front he is fighting a dark war. It is against Shia Islam. To contain this, he is going ahead into a criminal war in Yemen and a remote coup in Lebanon. He expects the 'West' to support him on this because (a) they want him to succeed in the domestic front; and (b) Iran - a Shiite nation is not exactly loved.
This is where he is making the mistake of a confronting a bottom up rebellion in Yemen and Lebanon with a top down approach. This front will consume his administration as the Iraq war consumed the Bush admin.
He has bitten way more than what he can chew.
3
To equate MBS’s the so called reform (power grab) with Arab Spring is an insult to the millions who risked lives fighting justice. If he is so enlightened, then where is his peace plan for Yemen? It is wrong to install a puppet through bombs, death, destruction and starvation. Houthis, too, deserve representation and participation, but MBS is bent to deny their basic rights. It is all evil!
7
I am so very pleased that MSB intends to move his country from the Middle Ages to 1979. I’m old enough to remember what the US was like in 1979 and if we could find a leader among us who could take us back to that nation before Reagan I’d be as excited as those young Saudis Mr. Friedman describes.
9
Watch as America's ally plunges into a deeper abyss of dictatorship, killings, and a stronger support for ISIS! The more things change, the more things stay the same!
5
And in this "Ode to Change in Saudi Arabia," aside from the realities of daily unexpected outcomes, anywhere, and at anytime, where do the ever present realities of interacting: (1) uncertainties; (2) unpredictabilities; (3)
randomness, in the sense of unknown unknowns, and (4)lack of total control, notwithstanding types, levels and qualities of one's efforts, fit in?
1
I am not as optimistic as Mr.Friedman for whom I have very high respect. If M.B.S. Wants to be successful for real change , he ha to educate the people of KSA and empower them. When the people will feel that Saudi Arabia belong to them, they own the country then they will love their country much more and the person who can give that feelings of ownership, they will be on his side. Otherwise conspiracy and corruption by the privilege will go on and instability and chaos will be ultimate result. Let me repeat that educating and empowering the citizens is the only route and there is no other alternative. The crown prince should follow Mohammadinism not Wahabism or Salafism means follow Quran an Sunnah.
6
And who’s telling you that they are not educating the people? I study engineering in Germany, my brother study’s medicine in holland , my sister biomedical engineering in the US, another brother mechanical engineering in the US, and we don’t pay a dime!! We even get a salary xD. Go search for how many Saudis that study abroad with a scholarship. Education is power and thus the young generation has power, cause most of them are educated
1
I would not call this Arab Spring. I would call it economic realism in a country that needs to shift its economy from oil to technogy. There is solid economic reasoning behind it. And the kind of talent they need for this shift tends to be liberal or libertarian, the kind of workers who will seek to emigrate from any country where they feel too overpowered by government or religion.
9
Saudi Arabia is still an authoritarian state with a heavy hand on anyone who disagrees with the monarch. Beheadings on the order of the King are common and lawful.
George Washington's admonition to avoid foreign entanglements is still wise advice. We should spend our time strengthening our own democracy rather than wishfully hoping that our allies will adopt our supposed freedoms.
In actuality, we are in the process of adopting their totalitarianism. Let us fix and improve our own house. Enough with nation building.
9
As always, I found Mr Friedman's reporting elucidating and enjoyable. An unexpected and pleasant surprise, though, was discovering I have something in common with a Saudi Muslim who happens to be a crown prince, no less. Like MBS, ``I fear that the day I die I am going to die without accomplishing what I have in my mind. Life is too short and a lot of things can happen, and I am really keen to see it with my own eyes." Now, if I could simply get on the ball and get moving like the prince then I'd be doing something!
2
TF, as usual, is a victim of his last plutocratic conversation. This “modernization” nonsense is a public display orchestrated to keep the Saudi royal family in the good graces of the US.
My new rule is that whenever the Trump family is involved, one should be very suspicious. This public display has more to do with what’s good for Trump and Kushner than what is good for us.
I expect more weapon sales and hotel licenses to result from this charade, and it will be US troops and taxpayers who will foot the bill.
31
I find this article too hopeful, and unfortunately, biased. Smell of petrodollars are all over this.
I think MbS is trying to pay liberals also to join his propaganda. After blaming Iranians for every wrong doing of themselves, from funding Sunni extremist to the laws in their own countries, they can have a clean slate?
Really?
Mr Friedman, people should change, and it will not happening until they practicing democracy.
15
'We met at night at his family’s ornate adobe-walled palace in Ouja, north of Riyadh.' ~ Thomas L Friedman, NYT
Fact check. Search for 'Ouja' using Google. You'll find nothing. Look for 'Ouja' in Saudi Arabia in Wikipedia. Ditto.
Why? Because it would appear that the standard rendition in English is not 'Ouja' but 'Al Awja'. Specifically, other news sites refer not to 'Al Awja' per se but always to the 'Al Awja Palace'. In other words, the palace itself goes by this name, rather than a locality north of Riyadh.
Further, according to the Saudi Commission for Tourism and National Heritage (SCTH):
"Al Dir'iya's land occupies the fertile curve of Wadi Hanifa on the outskirts of Riyadh, the capital city of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Al Awja was its traditional name and its modern popular name being Al Dir'iya."
https://www.scta.gov.sa/en/Antiquities-Museums/InternationallyRegistered...
6
'We met at night at his family’s ornate adobe-walled palace in Ouja, north of Riyadh.' ~ Thomas Friedmsn, NYT
Fact check. Search for 'Ouja' using Google. You'll find nothing. Look for 'Ouja' in Saudi Arabia in Wikipedia. Ditto.
Why? Because it would appear that the standard rendition in English is not 'Ouja' but 'Al Awja'. Specifically, other news sites refer not to 'Al Awja' per se but to the 'Al Awja Palace'. In other words, the palace itself goes by this name, rather than a locality north of Riyadh.
Further, according to the Saudi Commission for Tourism and National Heritage (SCTH):
"Al Dir'iya's land occupies the fertile curve of Wadi Hanifa on the outskirts of Riyadh, the capital city of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Al Awja was its traditional name and its modern popular name being Al Dir'iya."
https://www.scta.gov.sa/en/Antiquities-Museums/InternationallyRegistered...
The questions that were not asked by the author of the article:
1) if you really genuine about reform and fighting corruption, why not start with you ? Give up the palaces, the yacht ( according to NYT) that you bought at the age of 30 from your hard earned money for $550 MM.
2) aren’t the exorbitant monthly salaries granted to each member of the royal family, an embezzlement of public money?
3) shaking down wealthy businessmen is a populist act, which while getting rid of the head of the national guards, your last contender to the the throne is a power grab with benefits. Don’t you think?
4) fighting corruption is all about the rule of law. Lack of which leads to corruption. Where is the rule of law in saudi Arabia? What are you doing to ensure rule of law? Name one measure?
5)regarding moderate islam and the prophet,.... islam in its entire history opposed monarchy. There were no kingdoms. Do you plan to abolish monarch? Or this part is carved out from your vision?
6) Do you think you have the merits and credentials to be commander of chief of the saudi army, or is it your birth right to wage wars, where thousands die, and millions get displaced?
7) who shall be held responsible for the Yemen fiasco?
8 ) can i speak to one of the detainees? Can i speak to one their lawyers?
9) can i for the sake of integrity publish this article as an infomercial or as an ad in the NYT?
30
Bravo. What a charade this is!
2
A four hour bull session with a bunch of Saudi thugs is enough to convince Friedman of the legitimacy of their cause? Sorry sir, I don't buy it.
31
Mr Friedman please look up the word ‘taqqiya’ and get back to us.
3
Throughout the years, I have read many super optimistic predictions of Mr. Friedman printed in this paper as an expert' analysis. Frankly never before I have read one as overtly and embarrassingly ridicules about an absolute dictatorial monarchy, which has been proven instrumental for current extremist Sunni Muslim terrorism including 9/11. Whichever US PR firm hired by Saudis for this write up in NYT deserves a refund.
22
The Saudis have been using US planes to bomb hospitals, markets and anywhere else that Shiite civilians can be found in Yemen. They have created a shameful disaster which includes a cholera epidemic and a growing famine while blocking humanitarian food and medical shipments. They have also refused to allow any real journalists from entering Yemen and documenting what is happening. Given Friedman's stenographry masquerading as journalism I'm sure they wouldn't mind if he goes.
21
I know very well King Salman and his children, including his son Mohammed bin Salman, known as MbS. MbS is extremely corrupt and a corrupt Prince cannot exterminate corruption unless he is determined to exterminate himself first. MbS is sanctioned and embraced by President Trump, Jared Kushner and Netanyahu.
Like his father, Crown Prince Mohammed is a tyrant, not a reformer, not intelligent, not hard-working, and is not clean. MbS is in a hurry, not to reform and improve, but to become The King of Saudi Arabia and he is already the de facto King.
MbS proved to the whole world that The House of Al-Saud (including MbS himself) is The Royal House of Tyrants, Pirates, Thieves, and Killers.
Therefore, his campaign against corruption is in reality designed to:
- get rid of all his wealthy royal rivals and
- take over their wealth and assets.
Comparing Iran to Nazi Germany and its leader to Hitler, Vision 2020 and 2030, and all his promises about fighting corruption, and more freedom for women are diversions and public relations coup and tricks to consolidate power and appease the Saudi public.
MbS invaded and destroyed Yemen, kidnapped and detained The Prime Minister of Lebanon, Saad Hariri, and abused him and forced him to resign. MbS since the reign of King Abdullah is very jealous of Hariri and hates Hariri and has been patiently plotting and waiting for the right moment to arrest him and humiliate him.
19
In a just world, this individual would be sent to a re-education camp; perhaps to one of Palin's FEMA Camps.
2
Well they haven't got much water in Saudi Arabia, but it sounds like Tom Friedman was sold the equivalent of the Brooklyn Bridge.
21
This reads like Friedman was given the points to cover and wrote out an apologist's document in his own words from directions provided. I've never thought much of Friedman's work, but this is the work of a complete toady.
22
I was left with a similar impression; it seems as if a concern for staying in MSB's good graces seeps through the entire article.
4
Another ridiculous column by Mr.Friedman about Saudi Arabia and the Saudi Clown Prince, the man behind the destruction of Yemen and possibly genocide.
Thomas Friedman is either really clueless and gullible or unbelievably disingenuous. What is it?
This Clown Prince is responsible for all the misery brought upon the civilian population in Yemen, being butchered, starved and cholera stricken to death.
His misguided foreign policy has already backfired spectacularly in Yemen, Syria and Qatar.
Remarkable how the US's representative at the UN, the right wing ideologue Ms.Hayley, is silent on the mass murder of civilians in the Yemen.
Do these people not register on the US's radar, Ms.Hayley?
But then, then again the US has form: 500,000 children dying in Iraq due to the blockade was, according to the US' Madeleine Albright - a price worth paying.
(Btw, Bolton, Rice, Negroponte, Power,...America really sends their worst to the UN)
I wonder what moral code prevails in the US and with war enthusiasts like Mr. Friedman?
Iran has for decades blocked and defeated further Israeli aggression and destabilization of Lebanon.
Iran has also annihilated ISIS terrorists and savages in Iraq and Syria that were sponsored, trained and armed by the Saudis, Israelis and the US.
And now they say Iran is the "trouble maker".
If anything Iran is the only source of stability in the Middle East and the warmongers like T.Friedman know it and don't like it.
This column is disgraceful.
31
You are completely correct. They are all betting on the wrong horse and punishing Iran -- to their ultimate detriment.
7
This reads like paid propaganda for the Saudi royal family, mouthpiece issue. Friedman presents it all very simplistically and takes things at face value. Is he really that credulous? It's embarrassing. Did he really just want to brag about hanging with billionaires? That's what I take away from this.
23
All I know is that the original Arab Spring didn't really amount to much, at least not in the way of improvement. We see wat in Syria dragging in, and refugees in droves, Iraq leveled (again), Lebanon on the brink, and what of Libya?
Of course, the Saudi "spring" is different, since there is really only one season there, so reform from within the ruling family may take hold, maybe some moderate change will come. Will it really matter?
Um, there is no ‘spring’ it is a power grab with some fake superficial modernising aspects to appease the trump administration
1
As promising future as Mr. Friedman wants us to believe he failed to report that Saudi Arabia's conflict with Iran has produced one of the largest Cholera epidemic in history in Yemen. I am disappointed that he failed to ask what Mr. MBS is doing about it. Cholera in 2017 adjacent to an oil rich nation!
10
Not to mention Israel a country formed by persecuted Jews, willingly partnered with Saudi Arabia while ignoring its human rights excesses and atrocities. Does not make sense that Jews can tolerate this, having suffered through the ages.
3
Less than a week ago I read an article in the Times describing how SHAMEFUL it is that liberal political commentators and intellectuals consistently support autocratic regimes in the name of some possible progress or nation building. In that article, they were talking about Robert Mugabe and the support he garnered during and after that revolution, but we need not look much further to see many other examples of similar behavior from highly accomplished and otherwise wise people. Michel Foucault famously supported the Ayatollah during the Iranian revolution, an oft-cited mark against him. What has changed here? Does not ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPT ABSOLUTELY?
6
Thank you Austin. We keep forgetting also that the ends do not justify the means.
You have got to be kidding me.
M.B.S has just arrested all political opposition in the Saudia Arabia. He has initiated and fueled a war with the poorest country in the world (Yemen) because the 'rebels' are Shia, a war that in large part is equipped by US arms that are happily dealt to the Saudis. There is a humanitarian disaster happening in Yemen which is a direct result of M.B.S' actions (and the US' tacit support) . Please explain how this is Saudi Arabia's Arab Spring. Sadly, seems like business as usual to me.
16
And you didn’t mention Lebanon or Qatar or the multi billion arms deal with trump cronies
3
I think this is a beautiful piece. For an infomercial.
14
No one should accuse the author of objectivity or serious insight in most of his articles. This report is better than most, but is still woefully short on important facts. For example, what is the Saudi leadership doing with the funding and support of extremist religious schools outside the Kingdom that it has provided until now? How is this changing? There may be fire here, but it's difficult to see through the smoke.
1
This is the most objective piece I have ever read about Saudi Arabia in a western paper. Thank you for this superb reporting.
2
The Saudi's call it corruption, we call it campaign donations.
What is the essential difference from paying a government person a bribe to get what one wants or needs and paying them a campaign donation to what one wants or needs?
Our political system is legalized bribery. We have sunk very low.
4
I really hope they can pull this off. The world will indeed be a better place if it goes well. It doesn’t matter the place or the religion, but extremism and gross intolerance are always guaranteed to bring a good people down. Alabama or Saudi Arabia. We too need some introspection.
1
Fascinating to see how avidly so many NYT readers have bought into Putin's pro-Iran, anti-Saudi line.
3
Remember 9/11 and all the other funding of al Qaeda, ISIS, al Nusra, and the rest. Putin is not under your bed, but the Saudis fund terrorism.
3
You don’t have to be pro-Iran , to be anti-Saudi. I’m a woman, so by definition I’m against both.
you mean the same Saudis who just bought $4 Billion in weapons from Putin?
I really hope that this change will be for the better for Saudi Arabia, but I won't have my hopes too high for this. As long as Saudi Arabia continues to deny rights for women and Jews coming in, there will never be any changes. The truth is that that the Arab Spring for the most part has been nothing more than just military coups rather than reformation. In other words, they were just being under new management while keeping everything else the same. Also, will this new change for Saudi Arabia mean more open relationships with Israel or just the same as before? Just removing who is charge alone and replacing them doesn't make it automatically a democracy. Until there are real changes, it will always be the same no matter who is charge here. Unfortunately, those are the reasons to why I'm being skeptical about what is going on especially when it's a prince who is leading this and will probably just keep the system the same for the most part just for his liking. Overall, I just find any changes in the rest of the Mid East to be nothing more than just being under new management rather than being real democracies, which is why I see Israel as the only true democracy in the region.
1
"Also, will this new change for Saudi Arabia mean more open relationships with Israel"
He is suggesting that as much as he dares. But he lies. This "us against Iran" stuff will only last until he finds it useful to bash Israel again, to keep his fundamentalists under control.
‘As long as Saudi denies rights to women and jews’..
You can stop there in your first sentence. Read the Doctrine of this religion and get back to us .
The best thing that ever happened to Saudi Arabia since the foundation of the Kingdom is what has happened in the past two years when King Salman ascended to the throne.
No one can envision precisely the future of this country in the coming decade but King Salman. The sons of King Abdulaziz are quickly passing away. And the remaining are aged and worn out. In addition their mindsets were shaped by a different past era; ultimately breaking the traditional base of life is unconceivable, if not unacceptable.
King Salman was raised by his father at a young age and was very close to him. So he learned the substance of governship, its message within the Arabian Peninsula and in the world. Most important quality is his unquenchable thirst to learn about the history of the Middle East.
Any leader with a full grasp of the history of his locality and environment can put together the little nuances of events to draw a big picture that drives his mission to the shores safely.
In my view, King Salman saw the change as a matter of survival for the royal family and for the unity of the country. The change, however, must include how Saudis view the world around them.
I would argue that few of the young generation of Al Saud family can draw the same big picture from their family’s history and that of the entire country as King Salman.
What has happened in this country must happen at this time, including the appointment of Price Mohammad as the crown prince.
3
I wish MBS God's speed, but I worry that things will turn out like in the "Arab Spring" of 2010 in Libya, Syria and Egypt, i.e. reactionary forces will successfully exploit the new freedoms to impose their views.
Egyptians toppled Mubarak and got free elections for the first time in decades, and guess who they voted in? The Muslim Brotherhood, which under Morsi promptly set about dismantling the freedoms that made its election possible.
This is yet another example of Americans thinking that in a deeply reactionary country, one man can "make a difference." Remember Ngo Dinh Diem?
6
Saudi Arabia reforming by over-turning centuries of culture in one fell swoop?
We've seen this before from the House of Saud. . .promises to modernize (aka westernize), construction of high rise flats for shared living by families (failed due to their customs), promises to allow women the right to be seen unaccompanied in public and without their full burkah and investment in down stream petroleum based chemistry. It's all come to nothing and there's no reason be believe this youngster, MBS will achieve otherwise. . .it's not part of his or other Saudi culture; culture does not change without majority demand and there is none in S.A. because they have NO 'enlightenment philosophy' as a model, they have only rigid Wahabbism .
Let's recognize the fact that Saudi Arabia's economy is based entirely upon oil exports; not down stream chemistry. Petroleum based chemistry is commodity chemistry and highly competitive. With the USA's fracking boom and Russia's marginal economy based upon petroleum, the global price of oil is projected to stabilize in the range of $50 - $65 / barrel.
Saudi royal family is growing monthly and more royals living lavish life styles, requires more revenue OR fewer royals. Clearly, young MBS grasps the simple arithmetic and is attempting the latter under cloak of modernization.
Mr Friedman, you are typically well reasoned, but regarding the Saudi royals, THEY have sold you the Brooklyn Bridge and with toll booths.
10
Excellent! True and Well said.
1
Follow the money. FDR set up business with this corrupt regime, post-Yalta and during the tough days of reinventing a post WW2 world. Imagine: A country named after a family! Sounds like the promise of democracy going forward, right? Oil being the life blood of an industrial economy...what to do with a communist Soviet reality, post WW2(also with huge oil reserves)? The importance of securing access to oil for the Americans and the industrial West. What to do with a devastated European Jewish population? The importance of positing Iran as the bad guy so the US arms industry has a market for weapons. A world that an inept US helped create with an attack on Iraq under Bush the Younger. Our earlier intervention against the Soviets in Afghan and the subsequent establishment of the Taliban. No lessons learned from the meddling of the USA in Vietnam. No historical memory of how poorly the Brits and Russians fared in Afghan. Clueless Americans happily sending their children into battle for the most dubious of reasons. Oil and power politics politics....expansionist Israel with a growing population, looking for water. and land. Not a lot of reasons for optimism going forward.
5
Sad and true!
1
Gee another Friedman travelogue with some obligatory politics thrown in. Did you get to place your hand on the orb too?
22
Ahhh...another Saddam Hussein rises - removing all obstacles to power and picking a fight with Iran...no talk of peace in Yemen and Mr. Friedman cannot help himself but admire from a distance...SMH.
9
In a distant past, "useful idiots" provided a thin intellectual cover for the Soviet Union. Now they seem to serve the Saudis. Thomas Freedman boundless enthusiasm for a dictator who speaks his 'language' is only matched by Trump's effusive support for the Saudi system after they showered him with royal attention and flattery. Freedman consistently masquerades as a liberal while promoting neoliberal positions.
16
Excellent!
3
Wrong again, Tom. If Jarad and the new top bully in Saudi Arab get along, you can surmise that whatever they do will serve themselves first, their buddies second, and the rest of us (whatever our nationality) - not at all.
11
ISIS imploding, Saudi Arabia opening up. Just wondering if Friedman might speculate that Trump might have had at least a little to do with this? Nah, never even crossed his mind.
1
You think what the Middle East wants is "liberalism" decreed from above? That worked out really well for Iran, didn't it?
1
These are the latest facts about MbS:
1- The PM of Lebanon, Mr. Saad Hariri, was tricked, lured into Riyadh, kidnapped, held against his will, abused mentally and physically, forced to resign, drugged, and all his rights violated by MbS, under the watchful eyes of Jared Kushner and Netanyahu and with the blessings of President Trump.
2- MbS was forced by President of France, Mr. Macron, and President of Lebanon, Mr Aoun, to release Hariri
3- MbS has been heard several times recently telling his close advisers:
“It was easier for me to arrest thousands of Saudi businessmen, human right activists, writers and professors, top military officers, and even detain members of my own AlSaud Royal family including Ahmed bin Abdulaziz, Mohamed bin Nayef, Al-Waleed bin Talal, Miteb bin Abdullah, and confiscate their wealth and freeze their investment and bank accounts, than to arrest The PM of Lebanon Saad Hariri. “
12
Nobody coming the Family of Saud, can ever be honest. Dishonesty, hidden under a “cloak of Islam” or presently under a “cloak of reform” is the reality of the al-Saud family inheritance.
Western people, since WW2 especially America, hate diversity in every form. Their credo is: “why cannot they be LIKE US”. Competing philosophies of Life, competing religions, competing economics, must be trashed. America has annihilated, one Muslim country after another: Somaliland, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Yemen. America operates in two ways: militarily and economically. Millions of Muslims have been killed or starved to death by America bullets or economic boycotts/squeezes. The bullets and squeezes are either directly America or used by or other of its Muslim lackies (e.g. Saudi). Presently, America is scheming of ways to exercise hegemony over Turkey, Iran and Pakistan.
Tom Friedman is a hidden enabler of foreign domination of Muslim countries.
10
I don't know why I keep reading Friedman's pieces. He is so wrong so often and keeps hammering away at an out-of-touch world view ruled more by magical thinking than reality. He is increasingly irrelevant due to his conscious misunderstanding. This piece feels like he's just keeping the door open for future access to MBS, well-paid speaking gigs to the world's elite, and sunny "working" vacations in Riyadh.
NYT, next time send Amy Davidson, Evan Osnos, or, better yet, Matt Taibbi.
18
Tom Friedman lost the plot years ago. If you want to know what's going on in Saudi, read Bruce Reidel, the go-to guy.
2
Jared Kushner is happy about the Arab Spring as his bestie will now loan him money to keep his 666 mess afloat and he will be able to launder more money through his businesses.
16
Once again Thomas Friedman accepts the words of an unelected undemocratic Monarch that "reform" is coming thru the illegal detention of hundreds of citizens. "Reform" is coming with the purchase of high tech weaponry from the Trump administration that will surely be used in the barbaric war against Yemen.
Maybe it's time the NY Times stop spending money sending Friedman to the Middle East where the only fruits of his efforts are columns of war mongering and fealty to the world's worst regimes.
20
I hope this so called Arab Spring in Saudi Arabia will include the treatment of children. I will not go into the sordid details about how children, especially boys, are treated in Saudi Arabia but I encourage the open minded and enlightened readers of the New York Times to open Bob Bear's Sleeping With the Devil: How Washington Sold Our Soul for Saudi Crude to find out. Thank you.
7
This reads like a naive analysis from someone who should know better! I would go with Obama's declaration to Saudi Arabia, "Learn to get along with Iran", not what's going on now with a new alliance with Israel, terrible war in Yemen and continued Wahabi proseletizing.
15
The real question is will Iran and Saudi Arabia find some sort of reproachment. If not unrest in the Middle East will continue and America's complicity with the war crimes in Yemen will continue (cholera, starvation). Anti-corruption does not equal morality. But do I hope the Prince is for real and I hope Friedman isn't a dupe spewing Saudi propaganda.
3
Thomas Friedman's Iraq Amnesia:
“We needed to go over there, basically, and take out a very big stick right in the heart of that world and burst that bubble, and there was only one way to do it,” he told Charlie Rose in March 2003.
http://progressive.org/dispatches/thomas-friedman-s-iraq-amnesia/
10
Seems like Mr. Friedman has drunk some of the kool aid. History has plenty of examples where autocrats seemingly forced reforms that the west regarded as modernising only to have themselves overthrown. He mentioned 1979 but not the fact that the Shah had to leave in a hurry for this very reason.
While on the surface, any fool would surely support MBS, that is precisely the problem, that all this is driven by one individual rather than through any sort of consensus. I cannot help but see the inevitability of these actions destined for failure. I only hope I'm wrong
7
Friedman- we are not going to fall for this- I won't ask the rude question that everyone is thinking.
13
While all Muslims certainly revere the Prophet's practices, imitation thereof is essentially a definition of Salafi Islam, of which Wahabism is a part. The links between the al-Sauds and the al-Wahabs go back over two centuries. To suggest tat Saudi Islam was moderate before 1979 is to invent a past that does not confirm to reality, one that no Crown Prince can change simply by fiat.
5
Softball questions and the general air of an awed supplicant. Hm, I’m afraid I remain sceptical.
14
And I remain cautious about Mr. Friedman's opinions, remembering all his laudatory recommendations on Netanyahou and the invasion of Iraq. Like Walter Lippmann, he's "Always sure, but often wrong."
15
Thanks to its geographic location and proximity to the equator there are only two seasons in Saudi Arabia – dry and rainy.
Sorry Tom, no chance for the spring over there…
5
Sounds like Tom gave the King a free pass, acting like the Saudi cause of brutality and starvation in Yemen is more noble than Iranian support of Houthi freedom fighters there. Another free pass on the characterization of Khameini as a Hitleresque figure. I’m pretty sure most of the Mideast violence has in its roots Saudi wahabbist extremism and Israeli prodded US intervention but I don’t think we are ever going to get an honest discussion of that in America.
11
Tom sure gets excited about impetuous air heads with more testosterone than sense. Tom is a nice man and means well, but a slow learner.
So he has traded his last light weight, GWB, for MBS, doubling down on brute force when all the evidence suggests disaster awaits.
9
Is this analysis for real? Did Mr. Friedman intentionally omit the fact that under this prince and king, Saudi Arabia is, in good part, responsible for the worst humanitarian crises in the world (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/08/23/world/middleeast/yemen-ch..., or that Saudi Arabia just kidnapped the prime minister of Lebanon to instigate a crises in that country (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/saudia-arabia-lebanon-pm-saad-hariri..., or the fact that while rounding up people on corruption charges and calling for drastic austerity measures, the prince in question is treating himself to a $600 million yacht (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-prince-mohamme...?
14
Come on. What is $600 million to a Saudi Prince? It's like $5 to the rest of us. And let's face it, one can't have too many yacht's. I always wonder if the world knows or understands (or cares) that Saudi Arabia refers to ONE family. Maybe in my next life I can be a Saudi and never, never ever have to think about what things cost. And I don't mean the price of food. A pox on them all.
2
Dear Tom,
Do you still remember that you preached in your columns how the Bush aggressive foreign wars are going to spread freedom and democracy across the Middle East deserts as the forest fire?
You failed to take into account that by definition there are no woods in any desert. Similarly, no tyrant and unelected leader can truly spread democracy.
I am going repeat the identical offer I made you sixteen years ago that you should not have refused.
I you want to truly modernize, reform, and democratize the Middle East, interview me, not any pampered and spoiled Saudi prince.
Why?
I made the identical offer to the local FBI office in late 2001. A few months after the 9/11 attacks I presented them a way how to accomplish the aforementioned objectives a thousand times cheaper and ten times faster.
Why am I so patiently waiting? The truly brilliant people are a few centuries ahead of their time so waiting is their destiny.
Do you know that Leonardo de Vinci ideas and drawings collected a dust for a couple of centuries before the humanity rediscovered them…
2
"But as someone who has been coming here for almost 30 years, it blew my mind to learn that you can hear Western classical music concerts in Riyadh now, that country singer Toby Keith held a men-only concert here in September, where he even sang with a Saudi, and that Lebanese soprano Hiba Tawaji will be among the first woman singers to perform a women-only concert here on Dec. 6. And M.B.S told me, it was just decided that women will be able to go to stadiums and attend soccer games. The Saudi clerics have completely acquiesced." - This is called "progress". Let that sink in for a moment. When the Saudi Royals, and the CLERICS they have fully given power to begin instructing ALL of their funded Wahhabi madrasa "teachers" throughout the world that what they have been teaching is not appropriate for these modern times, and that they have to get on with the new program, without any kind of fears of being assassinated, you'll actually see the cows flying. It will take GENERATIONS to undo the WORLDWIDE damage done by their exported and lavishly financed brand of Islam.
7
This young leader is not supporting taking freedom from anyone but giving freedom to women and others.Our beginnings in this country began with
Getting out of the control of a King and we made it.I wish them luck.
Trump in his imbecilic,and destructive approach to governing seeks
Authority like a dictator.He wants self agrandizeing not,freedom.I drink to his failure and his disappearance from our history.Impeach him but remember what he tried to do.There are others just like him in Our congress.
5
MBS invited you there to write a “hopeful” report. Let us all hope that in the coming years we don’t look back on it as wishful thinking.
2
Friedman glosses over the humanitarian crisis in Yemen, and America's contribution to Saudi Arabia's war effort there which has created that crisis. Images from Yemen's capital and major cities depict destruction every bit as horrific and complete as we've seen in Syria. Not even mentioned! The arrogant dismissal of such horror (inconvenient to the narrative he wishes to be out in front of) is truly outrageous.
Friedman does not share with his audience whether he tried to contact any of the arrested Saudi princes or their Families to perhaps obtain their perspective on what is transpiring. Did he even request access to them? If no, shame on him. And if yes, was it denied? This would be important to disclose.
This incomplete perspective, with its many inconvenient truths ignored, serves what purpose? So Friedman can refer to this as Saudi Arabia's Arab Spring? Huh? A "revolution" conducted not by an oppressed people, but rather by the power that oppresses them? Friedman outrageously spins this as from the top down! When we witnessed something like this recently in Turkey it was described quite differently.
12
It’s nice to know that Saudi children will receive science teaching at the same time that many U.S. educational jurisdictions will mandate that the science of evolution be demoted and taught side-by-side or replaced by creationism.
4
What a puff piece for MBS! But it's dangerously slick. And, I expect, entirely mediated by the Saudis unless Mr. Friedman had complete freedom of movement during his visit to Saudi Arabia, speaks Gulf Arabic, and was in an environment where interviewees feel free to speak openly to a stranger.
Of course the West supports the reforms MBS is bringing to Saudi Arabia. But we shouldn't be suckered into supporting its violence and interference in the rest of the region even if the West does supply the weapons. This article reads like a set-up to supporting Saudi aggression against Iran and Hezbollah, a legitimate political party in Lebanon as well as a militia. Let us try to remember that these are the forces, along with the Russians, that defeated ISIS.
7
It seems Donald Trump is not the only American who can be suckered into submission and blind advocacy when treated to lavish, elegant dinner meetings.
16
Tom,
By the way, if Vladimir Putin meddled illegally into the US elections and helped Trump get elected, that means he could have accomplish the same objective identically, thus legally, in Russia and get elected by the people.
Are you saying that Mr. Putin is not a tyrant?!
Whoever loves ANY dictator actually has no problem with all of them, thus he or she is opposed to democracy as efficient social system.
Beware whom you sharing a bed with! They might destroy your personal credibility…
4
This mix of interview/workshop with an authoritarian, modern, enlightened chieftain looks part of a media promotion of the Saudi image in order to help the next sale of the Saudi oil stocks.
The highly appreciated journalism of one of the best globalist is here reduced to push a commercial adventure, serving a reassuring picture of the next future of the new Saudi country, where the WOMAN CAN DRIVE NOW!!!!!! WOW!!!
Finally, he should explain why Iran, where the women can drive is not equally good.
I am sure Mr. Friedman can do surely much much better than that.
6
This is superficial. We get no real idea of the geopolitical stakes, or even the financial crisis in the Kingdom caused by cheap oil. Friedman gives us the menu of his dinner, but never drills down on Yemen, Syria, Iraq and Lebanon. The Saudis untl now have been able to pay everybody off -- the clerics, the huge family of hangers-on, the Bushes and Clintons. Now they are obliged to turn Aramco public. We need better information than this, because the region is a powder keg, and the President of the US is walking around with a lighted match.
8
TF,
We'll see about that.
Remember that was Mugabe's plan in the 80s.
3
How to weed out a corruption in the country founded on the corruption? It’s irrevocably corruptive to declare and designate any single family as the superior to the millions of other people. The very moment you choose any family as the ruling one you turn the dozens millions other families into the second class citizens.
That’s impossible to happen in any country founded on the true faith that proclaims the Almighty created all the people equal. God can’t have an inferior output…
God doesn’t make the first and second class citizens. It means the local clergy turned their back to the true faith.
You change the corrupted social and religious elite only by the revolutions, not by the evolutions. If it were possible to accomplish it otherwise, then our Founding Fathers would have gained our independence from the British Crown in a peaceful way.
By the way, has the Queen ever got tired from her being in power and dissolved the Kingdom Constitution?
6
In the book , Sabiens, the author writes of the various myth systems---religion, ideologies, customs---that provide collective meaning to a culture, but are, mythical in reality. He also writes, that these myth systems---or "imagined orders," --- are constructed over centuries and are extremely difficult to unravel---I wish MBS luck, but, as the author of Sabiens points out, imagined orders do not fall unless a counter, more powerful imagined order takes it place---which, translated into the middle east context, would mean a radical redefinition of Islam---good luck.
1
Sapiens.
https://www.farnamstreetblog.com/2016/01/yuval-noah-hararri-on-why-we-do...
Hmmm. The Saudis get $110B (from Trump and little Jared) in US arms to.....bomb Yemen for us, squeeze Qatar, make life miserable for the Iranians, and, pretty please, please be our friend?
If MBS is motivated by anything it's the fact that he rules a powder keg: 60% of the population under the age of 21; 12.7% unemployment in a one industry country.
Tom, it's all about survival. The fecundity of the Saudi royal family and its numerous members using the country's oil dollars as a private piggy bank will simply not end. It just can't.
All this "restoration" is a function of cheap oil. By the way, I eagerly await the first Saudi Arabian cook book. (That quote was priceless!)
8
MBS is using a formula that has been successfully tried before by authoritarian leaders of China and Russia. This formula has 3 pillars: an existential enemy to unite people, an anti-corruption campaign to root out internal competition, and a promise to provide a better life for their masses. Mr. Friedman is familiar with the script but chooses to disregard the obvious for the belief that any change to the status-quo in Saudi Arabia has to be positive.
MBS is as corrupt as any other Saudi prince. Not even a year has passed since he bought a yacht for $400 million on an impulse from a Russian billionaire. A law degree never put to practice does not pay that much. MBS is a war criminal. His war with Yemen is at a genocidal stage with no end in sight. MBS's reckless meddling with regional politics is a JV attempt to increase his stature while moving the region dangerously close to an all out war.
While MBS has to try to sell this plot to his people, Mr. Friedman should know better that trying to sell it to us.
9
If you review the History of Arab countries you will realize that all the dictators started like MBS. If the ruling party really meant to bring "tolerance" they will start with stopping the war in Yemen and building it back up. Anything else is just smoke and mirrors.
5
Be careful what you wish for, Tom because the reforms appear designed to exacerbate the Sunni/Shiite divide. I had the same enthusiasm for the Iranian revolution hoping they were throwing off the colonial yoke that choked their nation since 1953. An friend whose family suffered dearly during the Holocaust reminded me religious fanatics were driving the Iranian revolution, and the "reforms" MBS will institute are designed to further the Sunni/Shiite as we see with Saudi policies toward Qatar, Yemen, and Iran.
3
i think i will side with those who are saying this is a money and power grab not the start of any "spring". and now the saudis have one prince in his 30's making decisions as a opposed to a sort of family council. a guy who has already instituted what certainly doesn't look like a "winning" war in yemen and doing a war of words with iran....... and he's young and i'm sure thinks he's got "alot to prove"
5
Mr Friedman said:
"The most significant reform process underway anywhere in the Middle East today is in Saudi Arabia...Only a fool would predict its success — but only a fool would not root for it".
Well, maybe those who don't root for the putative reformist Arab autocrat are not fools, but just see that not much good good can come from a visibly megalomaniac leader who, additionally, has no problem killing Yemeni children right now.
6
I have a pedestrian question that Mr. Friedman failed to ask MBS. If the pro-Saudi legitimate government is now in control of 85 percent of Yemen, why 100% of Yemenis are starving?
11
During the riveting conversation Friedman had with MBS, Friedman seems to have forgotten to ask MBS about the $500 million yacht that MBS bought on the spot from a Russian oligarch. How does an impulse purchase of a $500 million yacht get viewed under the sweeping anti-corruption rules? It’s a power grab under the guise of anti-corruption. Friedman knows it (even mentioned the $500 million yacht in his 11/7/17 column), but one does get as much access to Saudi royalty as Friedman does (he also had access to the last king, King Abdullah) without spreading their propaganda.
7
Excellent. And in the process MBS has managed to reconfigure Mr.Friedman's outlook.
It has been my beef with Tom Friedman and with NYTimes, they have consistently refused to recognize that any such reforms in Islamic lands has to be top down. Due to the nature of the issue (leave that discussion for another forum), any bottom up movement will degenerate into what we saw in Tunisia and Egypt and Syria. I now have hope, and hopefully we start with Erdogan of Turkey, his top down efforts to re-Islamize Turkey and Islamic world.
For our liberal society to survive, for us not to be in constant state of battle with Islam, it is Islam that has to accept diversity in societies and cultures. MBS has recognized this, and he is now in process of propagating this to his people. NYT and Mr.Friedman will hopefully follow.
We always become enamored by a 'do-good' dictator. Thomas Friedman is no exception. We project all kinds of western values onto them, thinking (may be hoping) that a whole culture can be changed by a few edicts. But at the end we find out that these strong-men are just telling us what we want to hear. They are only really out to empower themselves while sweet-talking us into a false sense of hope.
6
As another reader says I also respect Thims Friedman's expertise. However the reason for all these moves has a much simpler one. Oil revenue will never be what it was. There were too many princes running around throwing around money. Too much was money going to clerics to tell women to cover up, and teach in madrasas
That money is just not there any more . So he is simply cutting out the 'excess' in the name of corruption and progressiveness so that his own coterie can spend the money that everyone was spending.
Writers like Thomas Friedman will go gaga over such moves as allowing women to drive which will enthuse a bunch of gullible Americans to trade and visit and generate a new income stream for the Saudis.
While I agree cultural changes take time. I don't see any fundamental changes in Saudi Society for a very long time.
That change will be expedited only when the cars run on batteries, and oil is $5 a barrell.
2
This is such a puff piece. The Saudi Regime is taking over billions of dollars from the other princes. They are a monarchy. They, along with the US, are bombing Yemen and more which has led to the death of thousands upon thousands of innocent adults and children. They supported terrorism and no doubt were behind the attack today in Egypt for payback in negotiating the return of the Lebanese Prime Minister. Saudi is the last country we should be portraying in a positive light. It is the agenda of the oligarchy to convince the American people how wonderful Saudi Arabia is so we can keep the war machine fueled as they stir up further tensions in the middle east. Wake up everyone. Watch The Real News, The Corbett Report and stay away from the Main Stream Media.
6
As a devout Muslim and a proud citizen of good old USA, I'm somewhat torn about M.B.S.' plans. I am not convinced that the royal family itself is free of corruption. So who are they to tell us who is corrupt or not? Yet, I read about all the things he wants to do, and I can't help but root for the guy. This man is no saint but who knows, maybe, as the kids nowadays like to say, M.B.S. is "woke".
2
I take a different view having lived in the Middle East including Saudi. This is nothing but a pliant, ambitious family member implementing instructions from his Washington and London masters. These Byzantine machinations which will produce refunds of "$100 Billion", a pittance considering the wealth these individuals have accumulated, are a nothing but theater. This is typical palace intrigue which will allow MBS just the tool he needs to complete a gentler putsch. Saudi Arabia has the US and UK as its benevolent mercenaries, as proven by their silence regarding war crimes against humanity in Yemen and rewarded by, guess, $100 Billion of military hardware by the US alone. And, not surprisingly, Saudi Arabia has implemented a policy of acceptance and cooperation with Israel, something the two capitals above have wished for the past 20 years, in their effort to divide and conquer the Middle East. What a sham. Sorry, Tom, but your interpretation of Middle Eastern policies is somewhat shallow.
6
It all sounds wonderfully progressive. We'll see.
Two points: Mr. Friedman gives just a quick paragraph on Saudi Arabia's war against Yemen, a war that according to the UN is a war crime, where Saudi Arabia is causing an unprecedented humanitarian catastrophe. That is our ally Saudi Arabia, led by Mohammed bin Salman, whom Mr. Friedman so glowingly and fawningly describes in his article. The second point is to just imagine how this coverage would likely be if, say Iran, had done the same: a palace coup, mass illegal detentions, expropriation and no judicial recourse for the victims. And at the same time leading a war that is even in a world where the bar is high a human disaster, where millions are threatened with starvation, never mind the indiscriminate bombing campaign against civilians schools, hospitals. Does anybody think, Iran would be described in such glowing terms? Or rather as a murderous regime trampling on the rights of its people while persecuting mass murder abroad? Mr. Friedman gives a free pass to the Saudi regime from his position as a prominent columnist, for the only reason that they are 'on our side'. Instead of lauding 'M.B.S. approach, the article should give Mr. Friedman himself,and the readers at large time to ponder how bias in our media influences the reporting, and how reporting turns to propaganda, when we use different language to describe 'our allies' atrocities vs our opponents.
6
Despite MBS' flowery rhetoric, he is responsible for the worsening human rights crisis in Yemen. The director of the UN World Food Program says the Saudis continue to block them from delivering desperately needed food. Saudi forces continue to turn back WFP charted ships from Yemen. The Saudi military bombed the infrastructure in Yemen, using planes and ordinance purchased from the US. No wonder MSB thinks Trump is great; he's unencumbered by concern over who the Saudis drop American made bombs on. Where do starving Yemeni kids fit in MSB's Saudi Spring?
6
Thomas Friedman, a much admired and respected fellow Minnesotan, has had great insights to the kingdom and to the Middle East. However, I fear, Tom may be confusing a palace coup with top-down reform movement. The current situation may resemble King Faisal's getting to power and consolidating his royal base than a genuine royal reformation (assuming a royal reformation is even possible while keeping one's royal privilege and control of all aspects of government). Faisal's absolute power did not benefit the citizens of Saudi Arabia, to the contrary, it did them really harm. M.B.S. is one of the hardliners when it comes to free press and self-governing (look at what he is trying to do to Qatar and Al Jazeera for example). Further, to blame Iran on all the ills of Saudi Arabia and the region is to cater to the US's limited view of the world (Bin Laden, Al Qada, etc., were supported by the house of Saud to advance its cause). Let's not pop the champagne yet, let's first see what it really means to have an Arab Spring "Saudi Style!" I am almost certain that following in the royal family's tradition, Saudi Style, M.B.S. will be even more brutal and more corrupt - give him 3 to 5 years to show us what he really means!
4
Lovely piece of pro-Saudi puffery in the classical NYT style; thanks, Thomas.
So.. MBS is *not* corrupt and somehow completely different from the entirety of the rest of the Saudi royal family? Who knew?
How about an alternative version? Following the collapse in the price of oil engineered by MBS and his buddies the financial interests of the ancien regime were increasingly damaged to the point that regime change became a very real possibility, so MBS struck first..
As to a Saudi Arab Spring led by the noble leader MBS, please! I should stick to Lexuses and olive trees, Thomas, they're far less complicated..
5
Isn't this the same Prince who recently bought a 500 million dollar yacht to party in the Med while imposing draconian austerity measures on the Saudi populace? Doubtless-- in Friedman's view-- that obscene expenditure wouldn't elicit a peep from a bloodhound trained to ferret corruption.
The bottom line is that with the collapse of oil prices thanks in large part to fracking, Saudi has to jump from a medieval society to a modern one in no time or face a very real (and very uncontrolled) Arab Spring
5
Blaming Saudi Arabia's backwardness on the Iranian revolution is a bit of a stretch. The prince seems to have forgotten that women wore the burqa long before the Iranian revolution. Various Saudi rulers before him stood by the deal struck by the Saudi founding king and the Wahhabi fundamentalist for the survival the dynasty, in return for putting the country under the moral grip of the fundamentalist.
MBS also seems to have forgotten that roughly 5,000 Saudi princes' are on government's payroll, even more forgetfulness is manifested by his purchase of a $550 million yacht in the French Riviera, on sight, from a Russian billionaire in October 2016. I wonder what his government salary is to cover the cost of buying a "little boat". His shakedown ought to start from himself, a trained Saudi lawyer with no revenue stream to speak of.
Granted, the Iranian mullahs stole the revolution from the people of Iran, and no doubt Ayatollah Khomeini's call for unifying the moslem world sent shudders throughout the region as much as it did to the Iranians themselves. At best, prince's efforts will turn Saudi Arabia into pre-revolutionary Iran, run by an adventurous dictator with no democratic institutions put in place. His country is going to look all new and a friend of the West with none of what the West has to offer: liberty, democracy, and rule of secular law under an independent judiciary.
2
I remember a similar type of optimism that greeted the attempted top-down reforms in Iran against the Mullahs by the former Shah of Iran. That didn't end particularly well
2
The only good outcome of the current folly by MBS is that he is destroying the rule of Al Saud as we know it and very likely will look over the disentegration of the 80 years old kingdom. If history teach anything, it is that countries which are assembled by a strong leader based on some ideals will always disentegrate once the leader and the idea dies. The al Saud family was successful in keeping the country intact by sticking together and with the religious establishment. Good thing that MBS has broken this pact as Saudi Arabia will now most likely go the way of Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union. A very good outcome indeed for the rest of the region and the world.
1
Perhaps wrong, Friedman’s article finally promised hope for the world. The average education level of the Arab world was higher than Southeast Asia in 1948,and then declined, mainly because of the Wahhabi’s imposition and export of fundamentalism. That sent the Arab world in a downward educational spiral that no amount of oil could cure. Given that, what practical choice do the Saudis (or other Arab counties) have but to modernize. I am rooting for the prince.
2
Perhaps all those billions of dollars coming back to the Saudi government can be used to help wipe out the extreme radical Islamist doctrines that Saudi Arabia exported to countries such as Pakistan? They will need to reform all of the Madrassahs there that the Saudis funded.
Many readers are skeptical about Thomas Friedman's optimism regarding M.B.S. This Op-Ed makes clear that it is a qualified optimism. Still, I can't help but be amazed that the Saudi leadership, led by M.B.S., is going after Wahhabism. I don't know what the end result will be, but just the effort is very encouraging.
A top-down Arab Spring? That's an oxymoron.
The only true reform of an autocracy can come from below, but Washington desires stability, so the only changes that they and their corporate-media will support is limited reform. Whatever the end result in Saudi, democracy will not be in the mix.
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"Alas, who Saudi Arabia is also includes a large cohort of older, more rural, more traditional Saudis, and pulling them into the 21st century will be a challenge. But that’s in part why every senior bureaucrat is working crazy hours now."
Sounds like we need an MBS here, to pull our cohort into the 21st century. Sadly, our bureaucrats are not working to make that happen.
1
It is true that in the 60s life in saudia was not as conservative and people did go around shopping in Khobar without the veils and normal dress while Foreigner women were free to choose their dress code if they chose to. No force was used like in the 80s.
After 1979 a lot changed.
My comments would concentrate on no mention of any other changes to be foreseen.
His main contribution yet is on the social and life style which is very important and can already be felt but that is not enough
The economic and foreign policy has a lot to be elaborated on and is questioned.
To be accepted as a life time ruler, he has to do a lot more than that at least on other important issues.
Saudi Arabia only abolished slavery in 1962,
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He sems to have won you over. I hope the anti-corruption and religious reform are the real thing. I am glad you are skeptical about the Yemen war and the stance toward Iran. I think the conduct of the war in Yemen is wrong (especially US support of it), and the Saudi-Iran / Sunni-Shiite rivalry is dangerous.
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Change from above, as in the case of Saudi Arabia, is not at all the same as change from below, which is what happened in the other countries of the "Arab Spring". Sadly, what Mr. Friedman describes as a blow against corruption (the many arrests of princes and wealthy businessmen) say much more about the use/abuse of arbitrary power rather than the rule of law. This was not the result of an independent investigative agency's inquiries leading to indictments for criminal violations of specific laws. This looks more like a kidnapping for ransom.
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May this crown prince walk in the protection of the Light, as he navigates the narrow path of sanity between extremes of fundamentalism. I would not presume to give him advice, simply to wish him well in his journey. I'm sure he is aware that he will be a target for fundamentalists of all traditions and religions.
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Mr Friedman tends to be an enthusiast and that leads him to let down his critical guard. He greatly exaggerates Saudi liberalism before 1979. It is true that Middle Eastern countries have become much more religiously conservative over the last 38 years, with much greater empowerment and public enforcement of that religious conservativism. However, it is countries other than Saudi where this is especially noticeable because Saudi was always an exception in its publicly enforced conservativism and anti-secularism. I knew a woman who was living in Saudi in an oil enclave in the early '70s, and, fed up with her confined existence there as a woman, decided to bus (and hitchhike) through Iran, Afghanistan, and Turkey to Istanbul. It's hard to believe now but this was possible back then for a young woman on her own. However, it was never possible in Saudi and she didn't try. It had public religious police then as now. Still, I suppose it might be politically useful for the Saudis to pretend that they are just returning to some past golden age. Reformers have often done that through the ages. As for the anti-corruption campaign, the planned Saudi Aramco IPO requires that foreign investors see the company as less inefficient and corrupt, and all round cleaner, than it has been in the past. That's why the company won't be listed on the more demanding NYSE.
Mr. Friedman, you are brave and courageous to have initiated this very interesting analysis.
Much damage has been done by Saudi Arabia. The Wahhabi version of Islam, has distorted the real teachings of the Prophet, exporting it to various countries. The Saudi government has been responsible to fund various institutions, to propagate Wahhabism and spreading hatred towards believers of other faiths. This also, gave birth and emboldened the Islamic terrorists to run rampage around the world. The Saudis did nothing to arrest this menace. The incidents of 9/11 is still fresh in our minds. Now, suddenly, the young crown prince has realized what went wrong in his country, and on a correction course.
The fact that Mecca is located in Saudi Arabia is by attrition. Millions of muslims pay homage here. Perhaps, the site should be declared independent, to be managed by a world body. Like we see how it is in the Vatican. Otherwise, having Mecca in the hands of the Saudis, is too much power in their hands. In this manner, it will also clear the misunderstanding that Saudi Arabia is the 'Pope' for the Muslims around the world. It is high time that the present and future of Islam is allowed to be administered by a world body of muslim countries, to also include Iran.
Both Saudi Arabia and Iran, should someday, come together. The division between the two sides and their beliefs in the two versions of the Sunni and Shia Islam, is tearing the middle east apart, and impacting globally.
Wahabism of Saudi clerics with the backing and support of Saudi government and businessmen has ruined the world by producing extremists and terrorists in the madrassas that have sprouted all over the world. Hopefully, in Salman's blue print of reform he'll address this. Otherwise, the world will continue to put blame at his feet in spite of all his efforts to reform Saudi society.
Mr. Friedman, Why just a brief word regarding the "humanitarian nightmare"? A willingness to starve children in Yemen, as part of a military strategy, is a critical piece to the over-all Saudi story today. Actively blocking food from reaching people, bombing the ports, is tantamount to war crimes and should not be contextually misconstrued as a "humanitarian nightmare".
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The Saudi government " arrested scores of Saudi princes and businessmen on charges of corruption and threw them into a makeshift gilded jail — the Riyadh Ritz-Carlton — until they agreed to surrender their ill-gotten gains."
While Mr. Friedman lauds this effort by the US-Israeli ally, the very same action by Putin in 2000 is condemned.
ON JULY 28, 2000, Vladimir Putin gathered the 18 most powerful businessmen in Russia for an unprecedented discussion. This was the beginning of Putin’s campaign to undermine and reduce the power of a group of men who had made titanic fortunes from reforms designed to pave the way for a transformation of the Soviet planned economy into a free market economy. Russian President Vladimir Putin was rewriting the rules again. In no uncertain terms, Putin told Russia’s wealthiest that the jig was up, and he denounced them as creators of a corrupt state.
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My heartfelt thanks go to Mr. Friedman and all the thoughtful comments which have served to enlighten memore than reading a dozen news reports. I am grateful!
It is true that in the 60s life in saudia was not as conservative and people did go around shopping without the veils and normal dress while Foreign women were free to choose their dress code if they chose to. No force was used like in the 80s.
After 1979 a lot changed.
My comments would concentrate on no mention of any other changes to be foreseen.
His main contribution yet is on the social and life style which is very important and can already be felt but that is not enough
The economic and foreign policy has a lot to be elaborated on and is questioned.
To be accepted as a life time ruler, he has to do a lot more than that at least on other important issues.
Do the Saudi's fully understand the essence of American attitudes towards Arabs (and Persians)? We just invaded a country based on false pretenses, leaving a country in tatters and causing untold death and misery to multitudes of men, women and children, all without so much as a oblique conversation about the harm done. We support a nation with the most restrictive forms of Sunni religious practices and see places like Iran that fights lSIS and has more women than men in their universities, as the bigger threat. We Fund and support one of the longest occupations of an entire (West Bank, Palestinian) people in modern history with harsh military law applied to everyone among the two million people according to race/religion?
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Thomas Friedman did not seem to ask Mohamad Bin Salman tough questions on the Yemen War. Given the scale of the humanitarian crisis in Yemen, perhaps questions on Saudi Arabia's role in the conflict should have taken priority over, or at least be given as much importance as, the crown prince's domestic reforms. In addition, Friedman did not ask a single question about Saudi Arabia's treatment of its own Shi'a population, which has been suffering in the Eastern Province as a result of a state crackdown that has seen many deaths and that prevents people from leaving their towns to seek safety elsewhere.
Apparently there is a recent trend among American and Western European journalists to gloss over some of the more upsetting actions of Saudi Arabia in order to portray the kingdom's reforms as positively as possible (http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/sanitising-saudi-arabia-how-western.... If this trend is real and continues, we may soon stop seeing newspaper reports/articles on any negative aspect of Saudi Arabia's policies.
We must be cautious. The last thing we could ever want is for a government that does not care about human beings to be allowed to get away with all sorts of evils simply because we do not subject it to enough scrutiny.
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As Reagan said, trust but verify. Unfortunately Trump has gone all in without verifying, and I am afraid that will draw us into a needless war with Iran.
I admire Mr. Friedman’s perception, experience and knowledge of the area. And unlike other readers, I do not hold his earlier projections on the outcome of the Iraq war against him. We have all been wrong. He has a better record than most.
However, I do not see how this ends well because Saudi Arabia is essentially in an indirect war with Russia over Syria, Lebanon, Iran and Yemen while at the same time co-operating with Russia to stabilize the world oil price. Bloomberg’s Javier Blass writes that Putin is now the “King of OPEC.”
Saudi Arabia needs Russia’s help to raise oil prices and help balance its budget. Yet Saudi Arabia also wants to push back against Russia’s clients in Syria and Iran. It is hard to see this ending well.
The one solution is to extract $800 billion from those arrested for corruption – a number the writers for the Wall Street Journal cite rather than the $100 billion suggested by Friedman. The larger sum would free Saudi Arabia to go its own way on oil, while pursuing the Prince’s plans.
Otherwise, Saudi Arabia must co-operate with Russia – and Iran, despite the Crown Price’s goals.
When when the House of Saud abdicates and Saudi Arabia transitions to a democratic electoral form of government that gives the franchise to both men and women, when Wahhabism no longer has a reach inside or outside Saudi Arabia, when the Saudis stop the war in Yemen and repair the incredible damage they have done there, then I will admit that the country has joined the ranks of civilized nations. Until then, I suggest that both Friedman and Trump have been duped by Saudi PR agents.
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Mr. Friedman, thank you for sharing this hugely important OP-ED with all of us.
While I was reading your OP-ED, our sound system was playing the Whitney Houston hits. "One Moment in Time" and "Greatest Love of All."
We are experiencing in the former a special moment in time and in the latter, MBS' initiatives clearly reflect the lyrics of Ms. Houston's early signature song.
"Not a single Saudi I spoke to here over three days expressed anything other than effusive support for this anticorruption drive."
Of course they didn't. Is Mr. Friedman not aware that speaking critically of the Saudi royal family and government is punishable with jail time, and in many instances, a death penalty?
Saudi Arabia is making minor progress toward entering the 20th century. I wonder how long it will take them to catch up to the 21st.
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I just returned from a 20-day tour in Iran during which we were approached by numerous "everyday people" who wanted us to know that Iranians want to be friends with Americans and that we should bring that message home. The Iranians we encountered were the most friendly and hospitable people we have met while traveling to many countries in the world. We traveled to many areas of Iran and never encountered any hostility. We felt safer there than we do in America due to the lack of guns.
We saw Iranian women piloting planes, driving cars and working in many occupations. We didn't see homeless people and only two people tried to beg quietly. We saw roads that were better than what we have in the US and extensive public housing.
I wish Mr Friedman could travel to Iran also. The Saudi emphasis on demonizing Iran is not helpful to long range peace in the Middle East. I'm glad that the new leadership in Saudi Arabia is trying to moderate Islam there since Wahhabism has led to ISIS and 9/11. There were no Iranian terrorist on 9/11.
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After Franco’s death Spain went from a dictatorship to a democracy. It was a painful process where everyone participated. It wasn’t perfect but it was and incredibly fast move forward to progress and liberty. The key is that the Spanish society hadn’t completely lost the spirit of democracy that was taken away by the military dictatorship, in a coup, 40 years earlier. I hope for incredible changes in the Muslim world. Islam was very different before the 20th century, not the radical extremist that we know today. But I doubt the changes are going to go beyond cosmetic.
"Iran's supreme leader is the new Hitler of the Middle East." Friedman makes sure he starts a paragraph with that so it stands out. Before the Israeli hysteria against Iran, I believe there were 20,000 Jews living and working in Iran. And two in the Parliament. I don't know how many are living there now, maybe 15,000, but how many Jews are living in Saudi Arabia. In the parliament? Oh, they don't have a parliament.... Israel, The U.S. and the Saudis now have a pact, the Sunni siding against the Shia. And Friedman's their propaganda minister.
Toby Keith??? The same person whose song lyric "did you forget Bin Laden" helped propel us into the war, equating Iraq with al-Qaeda. Pretty ironic that moron is now singing songs to the real culprits of 9/11... I just saw a show on WNET about the arms trade in the world. The Saudis have been the main suppliers to ISIS in Syria and Iraq. So Iran is helping us rid Syria & Iraq of ISIS and most terrorist organizations there while the Saudis fund them. Thomas Friedman, the wild eyed schoolboy. You gotta love him.
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I'm afraid I'm not as optimistic as Mr Friedman.
Saudi Arabian Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman’s declaration - albeit unconvincing, that Saudi Arabia should become a moderate Islamic state in the future, confirms that it presently is not so.
The first step to convincing the world that he is serious is to abandon the world wide funding of Islamic schools teaching hatred.
I predict however, that it will business as usual at The House of Saud
Will Saudi Arabia's horrific record of human rights abuse continue? Yes, probably. Will death sentences for apostasy and adultery which are common continue? Yes probably. Will Corporal punishments including flogging and amputation continue at a time when more people than ever before are being beheaded? Yes probably. As will arbitrary arrests of dissenters and minorities, the curtailment of freedom of speech - which is non-existent, and the jailing of vocal critics such as blogger Raif Badawi by a judiciary which is totally State controlled, will those continue? Yes probably.
All this, plus the pro-active and enthusiastic funding and sponsoring of murder of innocents abroad. Despite all of this, the USA has approved the sale of $USD110 billion of arms to this family. We wait to see if Mr Friedman is correct. I fear however that he has been seduced by smooth talking carpet baggers.
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I never thought that a journalist, the caliber of Thomas Friedman, will travel all this distance, just to write an article just to promote the image of MBS, without even trying to give us any new information that has not yet leaked out in the media. If you read Friedman’s articles few years ago, you would be fed up with his calls to strangle Saudi Arabia and how to deprive it of its oil power leverage. Now he is cheering the new order in Saudi Arabia for trivial things like allowing women to drive; is this an enough sign of change? This MBS is waging unnecessary wars in Yemen, Lebanon, and Syria and then branding Iran leader as the “Hitler of the Middle East”. I know now that MBS has corrupted Thomas Friedman this time. I am sorry that he was able to do so.
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You can just replace MBS with Fidel Castro and date this article back by a free generations and it would read the same.
Shame on you Tom Friedman for having become a mouthpiece for a quasi head of state who has not been democratically elected nor adheres to a constitution written on paper guaranteeing people rights and a fair trial and executed by an independent judiciary.
Where is the editorial integrity of the NY Times. I'm thinking of quitting your news paper as an ardent paid subscriber since the start of your digital business.
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Thomas F must have been drinking from the same propaganda that this idiot has been feeding the world. Look at Yemen and the level of devastation. Are you blind to the fact. During your interview in his ornate compound, did you ask him about beheading and oppression of religious minorities. This article is utter nonsense.
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For Friedman to suggest that the current fascist “Prince in Chief” in Saudi Arabia is leading a “Saudi Arab Spring” is ludicrous. Friedman was a cheerleader for the catastrophic war in Iraq.
And now he has his poms poms out again for a Prince who is just another Saudi
despot. A true “Arab Spring” in Saudi Arabia would take aim at the entire Saudi monarchy.
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From New York, you are Friedman is the mouthpiece for the autocratic Saudi Regime. MBS hires Blackwater mercenaries to do the dirty work. The Riyad Ritz in now the new Hanoi Hilton. The US embassy would not even intervene for detainees with dual citizenship. A real royal shakedown to have billions transferred to MBS accounts. This is from the guy who recently argued that ISIS should be left alone. Go on and continue with your fabricated narratives but few still believe in it.
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time to rewatch Friedman's blood curdling interview with Charlie Rose justifying Iraq war...on You Tube
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This is beyond the pale. The amount of blood on the hands of the Saudi's is enough to fill an ocean. A bunch thugs in robes who laugh with gusto at the death of children and anyone who does not tow the line. Repugnant. Friedman should take up residence in his beloved Kingdom.
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What reality is this? We know 911 was Saudi funded and they are secretive diabolical evil. Ask Muslims Tom.
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hear! hear!
What a superficial fluff piece. How about pressing the prince on the humanitarian disaster the Saudis are causing in Yemen? How about the overall instability they are bringing into the region and world by meddling and goating Iran? Drawing parallels between Hitler and Iran is rich coming from a country where other religion beyond Islam are outlawed and women, minorities, gays are second glass citizens, despite the “modernisation” gloss this article tries to peddle to readers. Disappointed in the NYTimes for buying into this hoax.
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Seriously? Are we trying to be the mouthpiece of another Middle East "leader"?
The guy is obviously uneducated who waged war in Yaman that resulted in thousands killed for no reason whatsoever.
Then the guy goes on to say at "the time of Mohamed there was a respect of Christians and Jews" ...really? so why there is no Churches in Saudi?
The dude, did not even read the signs that leads to Makka..."not for non-Muslims"; ie discrimination by the state.
And finally what is the difference between this guy and Isis? Give us a break NY times.
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As long as the Saudis consider Iran's leader a Hitler, peace in the ME is a long way off. This 1000 year old sectarian split is crazy.
Did MBS, as he is so fondly called, buy Thomas Friedman a yatch, obviously not worth half a billion, that would be excessive, rather something more modest but still generous and heartfelt? How else to explain this puff piece for the Saudi Arabian government, which despite its length does not mention the war in Yemen, a war started by Friedman's pal, and which has caused a humanitarian catastrophe.
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Lengthy article. Reads more like a PR puff piece aimed at rehabilitating yet another middle eastern despot.
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What does he say in Arabic, Mr. Freidman?
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it’s simple and Crystal clear in Arabic and English. It depends on the person’s intention to understand.
Mr. Friedman - I hope you realize by now that you're being used as a propaganda conduit by the Saudi prince, or perhaps you have been swept off your by all the anti-Iranian rhetorics from your Saudi host that you jettisoned all forms journalistic standards in this assessments.
First, you had 4 hours long discussion with a man leading a war campaign in Yemen, which has been described as worst ever humanitarian disaster in the region, and it doesn't appear from you article that you made much effort to challenge the talking points from the prince. Millions of Yemenis civilians (including children) are being starved to death due to blockade imposed by the Saudis and that does not seem to bother you in your glowing portrait of this juvenile prince. I guess the hatred of Iranians overrides all other atrocities in Mr Friedman's book.
Second, with regards to you host assertions of "fighting corruption", Mr Friedman, wasn't it the same NYT that reported recently that this same man just paid over $300million for a yatch? Did you bother asked him about that or did you just assume such purchase would be from his salary? Does that even matter since he hates Iran so much! Did you ask to speak with any of those detained to get their own version of the allegations against them, as a journalist should do?
Third, one would think that the issue of the Lebanese PM strange resignation in Saudi Arabia few weeks ago would be of much interest to you given the regional implications.
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You are a grave disappointment, Tom Friedman. Incomprehensible how someone with your brilliance could be so gullible. And the many, many others who think like you. No matter what this man does in the future, it cannot erase or make up for the horror he is responsible for in Yemen. The million people projected to die from famine, the thousands upon thousands of innocent civilians who have already paid the ultimate price for his power-mad delusions of grandeur and pointless testosterone-fueled contest with Iran. Inexcusable and unforgivable.
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Who would ever have guessed (certainly not Mr. Friedman, when he wrote this article) that this is how Women's Rights would be advanced in Saudi: Becky DeVos' brother Eric Prince's Torture Contractor Enterprise BLACKWATER (or Xe or Academi or Torture-R-US or whatever they brand themselves these days) would be hanging Saudi billionaires upside down and beating them bloody in the ballroom of Five Star Hotels in Downtown Riyadh. Makes Saddam Hussein look like such an amateur!
Make Saudi Great Again!! M.S.G.A.
Freedom isn't Free, is it, Mr. Friedman?
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From Thomas Friedman: "It blew my mind to learn that you can hear Western classical music concerts in Riyadh now"—
"Blew your mind"? What happened to your usual journalist/quasi-diplomat-ese?
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Wow Tom Friedman is really all-in for this fellow. I'm more skeptical. Is he reforming or consolidating.
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So a monarchical coup now qualifies as an example of "Arab Spring"? Stupid premise.
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Why does this column seem naive to the point of propagandist? Guess that Thomas Friedman interviewing the imprisoned princes wasn't part of MBS' access deal. Sad to see the NYT being willingly used to whitewash the reputation of a guy who strategized with Jared Kushner, a notorious know-nothing, days before his power grab.
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Wow, a four hour talk over dinner and Mr Freedman is wooed! In a dictatorship like this kingdom, corruption is bad for the others, obviously the good prince used his own hard earned money to buy the $500 million yacht.
”the Saudi-backed war in Yemen, which has been a humanitarian nightmare"
The Saudi atrocities in Yemen amount to crimes against humanity. I suggest Mr Freedman Google some NY Times articles to familiarize himself with the wisdom of MBS.
What every American should be really concerned about is a radical Saudi monarch trying to take advantage of an idiot in the white house to draw the US into yet another futile and bloody war in the region.
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I am sorry but, Thomas, please do not believe all that you hear from Middle Eastern Leaders. I would have thought you learned that since 1979 and having been there. They lie lie and then lie more. There is no reformer in Saudi. MBS is as corrupt as his predecessors. Look at what he did too Bin Laden Group after the Mecca Mosque Crane Accident. The anti corruption drive backed by Akadami ( can you spell Blackwater) mercenaries brought in from UAE torturing the challengers. If you believe his story I got a somewhat used bridge in NYC for sale. Sorry but I can not help but laugh at your naïveté.
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Hoo boy. Once every 5 years or so, Friedman emerges from his cave to make a grand pronouncement so wrong, so tone deaf and oblivious that you can plan your foreign policy around its opposite. Go back and look at what he said about the end of the Soviet Union, the opening up of China, the Orange Revolution, and oh yeah the original ArabSpring. All sunsets and liberal democratic rainbows. MBS cares little about his own people, he resembles Assad the father more than anyone else and he is most likely to “ modernize “ his state while making all his neighbors into failed states.
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Given Tom Friedman’s long term penchant to see what he wants to see, I remain dubious about Saudi Arabia’s prospects as a modern state.
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Tom never fails to surprise me. His generally insightful and anecdotal writings are refreshing to read.
But not here.
First, he completely downplays the killings of civilians in Yemen, which the UNhas called out repeatedly as being akin to genocide
Second, is this the same prince who thought nothing of spending Saudi people money to buy a Russian tycoons Yatch for an overpriced 500,000,000 dollars?! ( reported by NYT). Surely can’t be money earned working for the people.
Third, Tom has this infuriatingly habit of converting a dialogue into a general observation. I call it Shallow Tom generalisation.
Tom, just because someone says something, it ain’t necessarily so.
Fourth, hasn’t Saudi been behind exporting WahabibIslam around the world? Is Mohammad now renouncing it?
Fifth, when you jail Waleed, a hard working businessman who has been a rare success story not based on royal patronage for the lazy and corrupt princes, it shows bad judgement and is an agenda of vendetta.
Agree that Mohammad is bringing much needed change, but he first needs to build his credibility by coming clean and addressing the issues mentioned above.
Then and only then will Tom’s article be considered journalism worthy of the esteemed NYT.
Best
Malik Sarwar
NYT reader since 1980
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Thomas Friedman shared lamb dishes with a man who has been bombing schools, hospitals and villages in Yemen for two years now. A man who is blockading the main port of Yemen, preventing the import of food and medicine, which the UN in a report issued just this week stated is leading to a mass famine in the country. And despite this hell on earth he has created he plans on continuing his campaign of mass murder and war crimes for the foreseeable future simply because it serves his personal political views
Friedman was so distracted by the fact that he will soon allow women to drive that he describes the death, suffering and misery and suffering that his host has been raining down on Yemen as a "humanitarian nightmare", as if it were some unfortunate natural disaster.
In fact the actual agenda this new leader was laying out before him simply flew over his head. The deceleration that "Iran's supreme leader is the new Hitler of the Middle East" should have provided him with a hint.
There was a very good reason that would not discuss the strange goings on with Prime Minister Saad Hariri of Lebanon. And that was that it is M.B.S, and not Iran, who is planning on plunging the middle east into a region wide war. And who better to lead it than a war criminal who is starving the population of a whole country based on nothing more than his personal belief that the Houthis are a proxy of Iran, something that is disputed by the intelligence agencies of the rest of the world.
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Khamenei the new Hitler of the middle east? No offense Mr. Friedman but you know this is utter nonsense. As detestable as the leaders of the Islamic republic are they're no Hitler. Iran is still home to the largest Jewish community in the region even though it has dramatically shrunk since 1979 and there are approximately 150,000 Armenians living there. They have even a soccer team (Ararat) active in the league! The deeper problem - which drives all Arab leaders including MbS crazy - is that the 3 main powers in the region are non Arab: Israel, Turkey and Iran and there's not much they can do about it...
8
Mr. Friedman strikes me as somewhat naive in his boundless praise of MBS.
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Do we know how many wives Mohamed bin Salman has?
Will his daughters ever be in line to succession?
Didn’t Mohamed come from a matriarchal society?
3
TF... is this the supposed reformer? http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-prince-mohamme...
Seems cut from the same cloth as our current President.
2
Mr. Friedman, you are easily impressed and display a worrying degree of nativity for a journalist of your reputation.To think that the moves make by Salman and his power hungry son are anything but a power grab and to see them in isolation to the depraved human right's excesses carried out by the kingdom in places like Yemen is to put it mildly, irresponsible journalism.
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Tom, don’t drink too much kool aid
Just because you’re an elite and get privileged access doesn’t mean you have to buy everything they’re selling.
7
This reads more like an advertorial than an opinion piece.
'A lawyer by training' - no, he has a law degree but has never used it.
Women cannot drive in Saudi Arabia - it is scheduled to happen in June 2018.
Saudi Arabia was always religiously conservative, they did not just 'freak out' after the events of 1979 and double down on repression. Any videos and pictures showing women wearing skirts without their heads covered were probably from Egypt or Syria.
Iran's supreme leader is the new Hitler and they don't want to repeat what happened in Europe??
No mention of the $550 million yacht that MBS bought at the drop of a hat? Where did that money come from?
Every sentence starts with 'He said' or He insisted' and not one thing 'he' says is questioned. Hook, line and sinker come to mind.
6
So MBS sees Iranian missiles in bordering Yemen/Houti threatening his country. MBS does a Hitler reference for Ayatollah Khamenei. MBS targets civilians, is creating a humanitarian disaster in Yemen - a cowardly air war not risking the lives of Saudi soldiers. MBS loves Trump.
Netanyahu sees Iranian missiles in Gaza/Hamas and Lebanon/Hezbollah. Netanyahu regularly invokes Nazi appeasement and Hitler comparisons (but fails to condem Nazis marching in Charlottesville shouting “Jews will not replace us” to not embarrass Trump’s embrace of good people who were marching with the Nazis and KKK). The wars in Gaza and last war with Hezbollah in 2006 targeted civilians instead of the IDF risking their lives and having the courage to fight Hamas and Hezbollah fighters/terrorists directly (massive ground troops that requires willingness to take causalities on your own side). With Israel (unlike Saudi Arabia) Israeli free press and human rights groups cover the issues; the UN targets Israel but not Saudi Arabia. Netanyahu really loves Trump.
I think I see a pattern.
4
MBS fantasizes about going modern on Islam and even gives Mr Friedman a lecture on the restoring-not-reinterpreting semantics of his plans. Yet, for all of MBS's modernity, there was not a reference in the article to the fact that non-Muslims (they are unclean) are prohibited from visiting the cities of Medina and Makkah. Also, I have not read any reference to how Saudi policies or positions on Shia Muslims will be updated. I find surprising that Mr Friedman should refrain from asking MBS to state clearly his position on the long, established history (of which Saudi Arabia has been the main agitator in the past 30+ years ) of inciting Sunni Muslims all over the world to persecute (to say the least) all Shia Muslims as a matter of religious duty. Meanwhile, I find fantastic that MBS (who has been considerably busy organizing mass slaughtering of Yemeni civilians using American weapons and American military support for the past 2+ years, as per the NYT’s own many articles) should be allowed to turn this article into a mouthpiece to equate Khamanei to Hitler ! It would be interesting to read a dual reportage by Mr Friedman and Thomas Erdbrink on the current situation for Jewish communities both in Saudi Arabia and in Iran.
6
Mr. Friedman. you have drunk the Kool-Aid and this is a sorrowful time for you and your publication.
By his actions, Mohammed bin Salman has proven himself to be a mass murderer of civilians and a war criminal, blatantly guilty of crimes against humanity. The campaign against Yemen has unquestionably involved intentional bombing of schools and hospitals.
He is destabilizing Lebanon, still recovering from a vicious civil war, and his actions threaten to plunge that country into civil war again, with unforeseen but potentially horrible consequences for its population, its Syrian refugees and its neighbors.
His campaign against corruption apparently does extend to Mohammed bin Salman himself, who recently purchased a yacht for half a billion dollars, apparently on a whim. That is pocket change for the totally autocratic, de-facto ruler of a country awash in trillions of dollars worth of oil, and whose commitment to democracy rivals that of North Korea and probably no other country on earth.
As far as I know, each of the 10,000 self-style "princes" of Saudi Arabia still receives a minimal stipend of $100,000 per month while imported laborers are treated as slave labor, beaten, raped and deprived of their wages on the whims of their masters.
The man you so fawningly interviewed belongs in the dock in the Hague, not as the subject of a hagiographic article in this publication.
Dan Kravitz
6
I don't know a lot about the subject but this essay struck me as fawning. You can do better, Mr. Friedman.
2
It is incredible how biased this article is! It sounds like the whole article has been instructed by M.B.S and not only one sentence. Mr. Freedman: you failed this time of being professional!
5
Did you press him on the starving children in Yemen due to the Saudi blockade whilst you were sat fawning over him?
3
So now we should applaud the slaughter in Yemen because the Saudis think they are winning? I've read that the loosening of bonds on Society is part of the strategy to take off some heat from outside and give them more room for their other adventures. Sounds like Tom has drunk the koolaide. I think he got too close to his subject.
3
Trust old Tom to come out swinging his expensive rose scented cudgel to try to shape a pile of hooey into a piece of real estate. Any leader of any nation, state, city, town, village or collection of hovels who says that DJT is the right guy at the right time is completely without any good intentions at all. The young appointed MBS has no idea what he’s getting into, and Friedman should be embarrassed to try to send this missive out so soon, like a love letter to a complete stranger. It’s tempting I know to try to put a glow around a burning fuse that’s racing toward a powder keg (“ Look! It’s going to be a goldmine after it blows!”) but to label this a Saudi Arab Spring is just insulting. There was a reason why the Arab Spring was a “top down“ revolution and a reason why most countries failed at their revolution, but it wasn’t because they were started at the bottom. The reason they failed was a fierce crackdown from the top, with the blessings of countries like the Untied States and Saudi Arabia. Nice try Mr. Friedman, but that’s a real pig you’re applying that lipstick to.
4
"Only a fool would predict its success — but only a fool would not root for it."
It appals me a person can be determined a fool if they refuse to waste their time ‘rooting for’ what is to be the known effect of a mere single Prince claiming the Islamic-Muslim cultural whole can stop informing systemic terror-genocide and subjugation of other religions. There have been various Muslim leaders determining at points in time since the 7th century violence against Other as well as fellow Muslims the Islamic-Muslim culture informs must be or should be stopped, without affect, even 552 Muslim religious and political elite signatories, from 84 countries. in recent times from 84 different countries who signed the Jordan 2005/2006 Ammam Message including King Abdullah bin Abdel Aziz Al Saud, King of Saudi Arabia; Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques determined "True Islam forbids wanton aggression and terrorism, enjoins freedom of religion, peace, justice and good-will to non-Muslims, it is also a message of good news, friendship and hope to the whole world.".
What then happened over the fence from Jordan, let alone in the rest of the world to determine such a claim completely contrary to reality, and combined with historical evidence therefore invalidated any claims the same existed or could in fact be achieved without deleting more than half the Quran text and determine Mohammad a deviant?
1
Looks like Thomas Friedman has been drinking Saudi kool-aid (or champagne and caviar). War in Yemen killing multitudes of civilians, hundreds of arbitrary arrests and allegations of torture, interference in the internal affairs of Lebanon,deals to deprive Palestinians of their rights...So women will be able to drive? Great that pulls Saudi Arabia into the early 20th century on women's rights not the early 21st. How does any of this represent progress?
2
I really wish all these plans come to fruitful accomplishments. However, from my Latin Americanist point of view, MBS is acting just like any populist like Hugo Chavez. Is a completely different context, but the strategies are very similar. The Venezuela from the 90’s needed a revival and Chavez brought it, just like Morales in Bolivia. The fruits of their efforts had not been that democratic. Saudi Arabia will never be democratic, but I will add some skepticism to mr. Friedman’s perspective instead if blindly rooting for his promised efforts.
2
Et Tu Thomas? Did you ask M.B.S. about the hundreds of millions in funding for Wahhabi religious schools in Bangladesh and throughout the Islamic world, where young men are taught to hate Americans?
13
Isn't this the same Mohammed Bin Salman that bought a $550,000 yacht as he cut public spending just last year? Who's shaking the money from his pockets?
9
Correction--the yacht was $550,000,000, not $550,000.
Your missing a few zeros
1
Actually, the yacht was $550,000,000. Unbelievable I know but reported to such in the NY Times. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/16/world/rise-of-saudi-prince-shatters-d...
3
Just as I'd forgotten about the naivete of 'Arab Spring'. leave it to Tom Friedman seeing the glass as half full. It's going to take more than one crown prince to turn this backward society towards civilisation.
7
"He praised President Trump as "the right person at the right time'." That and with the horrors - most notably, starvation - inflicted on Yemen...you may be backing a very lame horse, Mr. Friedman.
17
Hope the young crown prince is not taking Friedman for a ride. I am surprised Friedman did not push. Ack hard against the prince regarding Yemen. The Saudi's have caused misery in Yemen, Syria, Pakistan and the lost goes on. Iran was a key player in getting rid of ISIS whose ideology mirrored Saudi Arabia. Now the corrupt Saudi's are trying to work with Israel to destabilize Lebanon. Friedman may mAking Iraq like judgement mistake
8
This is like putting lipstick on a pig.
Will the Saudis rewrite the Quran and other tomes of hate speech that provide the philosophical foundation for Islam ?
Until this is done, it only takes one believer to go all fundamentalist and the bombs start going off.
5
Apparently MBS is hanging his cousins by the feet and torturing them to extort money from them. Did Mr. Friedman get to see this during his visit to Riyadh?
8
The crown prince is committing genocide in Yemen. I am disgusted that my tax dollars support him and his regime - sorry, but I could care less that Saudi women are now allowed to drive (good for them - they drive to the mall now). Genocide is real. Death by starvation is a vicious way to die.
12
Reality check....The Muslim countries have always been repressive regimes because of their "religion." Yes. These countries are theocracies at their core. Shariah controls. Some countries are worse than others, cutting the hands off of children who steal a piece of candy all in the name of their "Alah." These are intolerable regimes, uncivil and hostile to human rights. We are told in America that Islam is a "great" religion. Yes. It is great only in numbers but not great in its theology. It is no excuse that most who adhere to this "religion" are non violent. Muslims must speak out and denounce those who terrorize innocents in the name of Allah instead of remaining mute as the slaughter continues. Trump tapped into what most Americans feel about this religion. Those who truly believe in the Koran cannot also believe in and follow our Constitution which guarantees equal rights for all. Choose one or the other or choose hypocrisy. Sorry.
2
Mr. Friedman spends too much time stroking MBS, and too little on the bloodshed he sanctions in Yemen. Watch the relationship between FM Adel Jubeir and MBS’ brother in DC to understand the Crown Prince’s true intentions.
4
For any nation to advance and evolve, it has to start by fighting corruption and The Terrorism. This is exactly what the crown prince Mohammed Bin Salman is doing. In a short period of time he was able to wipe the kingdom clean of all the corrupted people and people with terrorist thoughts with no regards to their titles and positions.
The breath-taking naivete of Western columnists, academics and intellectuals evaluating the superficially charming Machiavelian dictators of the world never ceases to amaze. As brilliant as you are be aware of the more cunningly brilliant sociopaths who mount the Darwinian path to success in the Byzantine world of politics. Recall the early supporters of Lenin, Stalin, Hitler and Mao, who published the long forgotten puff pieces in the Western press. They never apologized and never explained their adulation of these mass murderers, just went on to the next idealized "liberator". Even now we are reading of mercenary torturers who are helping encourage the "corrupt" Saudi billionaires to surrender their ill-gotten gains. Doesn't this remind you of the wealthy Jews of 1933+ Germany, stripped of their wealth by the Nazis who claimed the money was "stolen" from the honest German people. As they conquered Europe they no longer needed to make pretenses, just confiscated and slaughtered.
6
You are so correct in what you say here! This Crown Prince is being reckless, and is doing things that only an evil dictator would do, dressed in “loosening” freedoms for people, but, without allowing for any rights! I don’t want my tax dollars supporting this, and we’re being tricked by SA, Israel, and Trump/Kushner into war with Irsn on Lebanon as the battleground, in addition to supporting SA in the atrocities that it is committing in Yemen!
1
A Muslim cultures dissimulating soft power in full swing despite the obvious broken bodies and lives contradiction which always precede and follow from such a profound denial of reality.
No better example of the worthlessness, 'importance' of Islam/Muslim claims to moderation and their ineffectual affect upon the Islam/Muslim culture is the “the Ammam Message initiative of King Abdullah II of Jordan.
"True Islam forbids wanton aggression and terrorism, enjoins freedom of religion, peace, justice and good-will to non-Muslims, it is also a message of good news, friendship and hope to the whole world."
King Abdullah II bin Al-Hussein of Jordan 2005/2006 Ammam Message 552 Muslim religious and political elite signatories, from 84 countries.
What intensified across the Jordan border in Iraq, Syria-Middle East in Africa, Asia and increasingly appeared in Western streets terror-against Other inclusive of Muslim apostates, not only based upon a Sunni takfiri ideology claimed by the Jordan Ammam Message group assembled to be ‘heretical’-not true to the Islam/Muslim religion, but also Shiite terror-genocide against Other?
Good intentions from one end of the Muslim behavioural variance reflecting Others values have never overcome the inherent terror-genocide within the Islam-Muslim codex which only ever informs lulls determined by some as peace and harmony but in reality a pause to build once more to thresholds where the oppression of Other recommences.
Mr. Friedman, MBS is also quoted this week calling the Supreme Leader of Iran 'the new Hitler', ratcheting up a war of words on Tehran that could lead to real war, which would turn Iran into the chaos we see in Syria.
When bombs stop falling on children in Yemen I'll believe that this man is a reformer. Otherwise I'll continue to call him an undemocratic despot who has purged his foes, ensconcing his power and own supreme ability to pilfer oil riches, hurting the public good of Saudi and the region.
I'll say another thing, there is no 'god' and no such thing as royalty. For you to indulge this entitled brat with your presence and praise in such a way is shocking to me, and it seems as if you've been snookered, or worse, are intentionally playing a part in normalizing his demagoguery.
6
Now it is time for the "good Muslims" around the world about whom we hear so much to exhibit a little bit of courage and goodness.They need to swarm like a colony of angry bees around the vile young Muslim "men" currently plotting or even just talking about commiting terror attacks. They need to eradicate these young men, as well as the older men preaching their vile jihadist rhetoric.
Saudi Arabia started the terror, and now it is sowing and nourishing the seeds of decency where for decades its wahabbi lunatics have been fomenting terror. American (and European and African and Asian) Muslims, join up! Or else!
Until the Muslim community does this, because now is clearly the time, please don't let me hear any more complaints about "Islamophobia"!
1
If Saudi Arabia can defang the religious fundamentalists that have inflicted their draconian mythology and views on their society since 1979; when can we start here in the USA?
6
For the favor of four hours with MBS (and probably other access past and future) Thomas Friedman has signed on as press agent for the Crown Prince.
He doesn't bother even to mention the war MBS is waging against Yemen causing a humanitarian catastrophe. He didn't even ask where the $500,000,000 that MBS spent on a yacht came from. He suggests that outsiders questions about the legality of the arrests is, in Donald Rumsfeld's word "quaint".
5
You have got to be joking Mr. Friedman!
This is all window dressing and cover for another corrupt Saudi leader.
A "Game of Thrones Move" so to speak.
3
I agree with you, but we need to also acknowledge that the corrupt Prince is joined by the corrupt Trump, Kushner, and mist corrupt Netanyahu! Individually and collectively, they’re endangering more than just SA —- and it’s all about their personal greed!
3
Tom, as you're recovering from your fun night out and digesting your lamb, maybe you should read this. It's dated by a month or so, but it serves as a warning.
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/mec/2017/09/18/king-salman-and-his-son-winning-th...
1
Friedman glossed over the Saudi-orchestrated starvation and genocide in Yemen. This is from the same person who, together with Judith Miller (both of the Times) was one of the strongest cheerleaders for the invasion of Iraq. Looking back over two decades, Thom gets it wrong far more often that he gets it right (as in his love song to globalization). But this essay is particularly disturbing because of his embrace of a morally bankrupt regime. He has been bamboozled and bedazzled by a young prince who is as ruthless as were his elders. Why the embrace? His fluency in English? His openness to Western affect? This is a dangerous view and, if he is at all representative and influential, we all will pay for it.
5
When his Air Force stops dropping bombs - US made bombs - on innocents, I'll be more open minded about rooting for him.
18
Friedman embraces a man who on the outside appears to be lifting Saudi Arabia out of the 10th century but could well prove to be just another authoritarian dictator in the ME. It is best to wait this "Arab Spring" out for a year or so before thinking this man "plans to bring back a level of tolerance to his society."
6
No discussion on terror financing and financing religious groups across the world which promote extreme forms of Islam. I hope that will stop too.
4
MBS has started a reformation movement from the top like Kamal Ataturk of Tarkey and history shows he made a great impact on Turkish society and Turkish Islam. If MBS can bring back Alaha's Islam from Mullaha's Islam in Saudi Arabia, the whole perception of Islam will change in the world. The poison that is spread in the world from ISIS to Pakisthan will be cut off at the root by closing the funding from Saudi Arabia both directly and indirectly by the expats of Saudi Arabia. If MBS can successfully build a rudimentary pluralistic society in Saudi Arabia, he will always be remembered like Kamal Ataturk and whole world will praise him. Can he do that?
6
This article, like the illustration which portrays a woman with an uncovered head and wearing a skirt, does not reflect the myriad problems that this repressive, corrupt society faces.
5
Thomas Friedman repeatedly tries to shove an entire region into a 'Washington Consensus' Middle East policy that only ever made sense to Americans. The fact that he is so consistently wrong is less important than the fact that he nevertheless gets to keep on misrepresenting autocrats as progressives and complex struggles for sovereignty as extremist challenges to universal human norms. Mr. Friedman's writings are to be understood as symptomatic and not analytical. Though he would deny it vehemently, taken as a whole, Friedman's collection of op-eds tacitly demand a world of authoritarians --each peace initiative is only ever waiting for "strong leaders" to rescue people from their own foibles. As if a century of malign foreign intervention had nothing to do with the undemocratic polities only awaiting a strong leader to free them from their lack of democracy. Puhleez.
12
This is the most objective article I have ever read about an Arabic country written by a Zionist. I hope there is a genuine outlook to a future with less confrontation and wars in the region. The Arab Peace Initiative proposed by the late king Abdallah of Saudi Arabia has yet to be assimilated by the Zionist State. Real development and prosperity cannot begin to start until the agonising middle east's main problem is finally solved.
3
You are absolutely joking if you think Israel (“Zionism” - very cute how you use that word here) is the root cause of the problems in the Middle East as your are implying here. It’s always the Jews - your anti semitism is so obvious it’s laughable. BTW the United States is as colonial as Israel and let’s not forget Canada, Australia, New Zealand ..... but that’s ok, right?
1
It appears, MBS has discovered a new natural resource, highly educated citizens.
1
Three cheers for M.B.S! Now let's do the same here in the U.S.. Throw all the corrupt business leaders and politicians in jail, especially those using their positions of power to enrich themselves at the expense of taxpayers. Those politicians and CEOs that accept bribe money through their businesses, in order to buy regulatory changes favoring their enterprises. If you abuse your power for personal enrichment, you go to jail until you agree to pay back what you stole. For once the Saudis sit on the edge of meaningful reform, while the U.S. wallows in the mire of deceit and debauchery. I can think of a fancy hotel near the White House, a government building no less, that would be a good place to lock 'em up.
9
You would have to start with the Trumps....
1
For an autocrat who doesn’t hesitate to kidnap his rivals and a foreign head of state and extort whatever he wants at gunpoint, I guess he is better than some.
7
Very naive!
p.s. "he praised President Trump as “the right person at the right time”. Great minds think alike!
10
Wow. Talk about drinking the Kool Aid. Domestic reforms may look good but the blockade of Qatar? And the demonisation of Iran, egged on by Trump? And the genocide in Yemen?
Dangerous times -- but at least men can go to country music concerts in Riyadh.
19
I'll believe it when the Saudi's do a mea culpa and apologize (and pay) for 9/11.
John~
American Net'Zen
7
If M.B.S. is for real, what are the odds that he will live long enough to succeed? There are tens of thousands of jihadists in his country alone. Sooner or later, one will get through to the prince (or probably king by that time) and blow him up.
1
And Yemeni people? What will be do about the starving children in Yemen?
11
When was the last time revolution came from the top?
"The Saudi clerics have completely acquiesced." How many did you interview?
6
Saudi Arabia? 'Moderate'? Mr. Cynical me says I'll believe it when I see it.
4
MBS knows that for his purposes the easily flattered Trump is the right President at the right time. Trump is impressed with gilded royalty and military ceremonies. He admires strongmen and has little patience for due process and the rule of law over the iron fist of men. MBS is grooming an ally in the ages long struggle between the two prominent sects of Islam. If Iran is the new Hitler, than how do you refer to the willful destroyer of civilians in Yemen, the manipulator in Lebanon and the perpetrator of the siege of Qatar? And we are to believe MBS acquired his wealth free of "corruption"? Religion was a strong arm opiate of the masses in Saudi Arabia, enabling the "princes" to live in luxury. MBS will give them soccer, concerts, driving and designer mini-burkas. But make no mistake, as he shakes down the sheikhs he is building up his wealth and power. Part of his power grab plan is to be backed up with firepower supplied by the Trump led USA.
Most frightening is Trump's acquiesce to the solidifying Russia/Iran alliance
in Syria while backing the Saudi's militarily. Trump's guiding principle is admiration of strongmen: MBS and Putin, He is oblivious to the Sunni-Shia war he is abetting and involving our country in.
11
What is Mr. Friedman thinking these days? As one Commentator mentioned, did he bother to interview the Victims to get the the side of the story?
I will take a "Corrupt President" in a democracy over a "Just Dictator" in a Monarchy any day of the Week.
We are talking about an impulsive 32-Years Old kid who bought a $500-Million Yacht off the shore of France the minute who saw it, that is not corruption? This is the same person who imprisoned the Lebanese Prime Minister in violation of every international law and Forced him to read a resignation Letter from Saudi Arabia on the Saudi TV. How about the Ware crimes in Yemen.
Mr. Friedman Needs to read the United-Nations Human-Rights Report on Saudi Arabia. Mr. Friedman needs to go back to Ban Ki-Moon statements (Only One year ago) when he said that the decision to remove Saudi from the damning human rights report under undue financial burden was was 'one of the most painful and difficult' decisions he has had to make as Secretary General. I am sure Mr. Friedman as a seasoned journalist is aware of Ki-Moon struggles with that decision.
8
The worst bet on planet earth is to bet on Islamic Moderates. I said this before the Arab Spring, and that opinion was informed by what happened after the 1979 Iranian Revolution in the early 1980s.
Still, I have to applaud the Saudis who are trying. Their country has been neck deep in serious dirt from attaching themselves to the crazy Wahhabis and these whacks will not go quietly.
This boffo society has a lot to answer for. I hope Salman gets this done if for no other reason then to find out the full extent of how dirty this place is.
1
"Yemen today is arguably the worst humanitarian crisis on earth, and America’s role in it is undeniable and indispensable". It's clear this does not bother Friedman in the least It's takes a lot of gall to turn the other way and promote this MBS despot Friedman is the same guy who backed all of our failed interventions in the Middle East He hasn't learned much from those ongoing misadventures
12
You are fooling yourself. This guy is a power-mad authoritarian in love with Trump, not an even-handed killer of Wahabism. The Middle East allows Westerners to see what they want, not what is.
5
MBS plays serious hardball, but Friedman mostly pitched softballs. Not usually his style. The Trump allusion is a case in point. He let the Crown Prince get away with endorsing an outright Islamophobe -- a president who has considered banning Muslims from America -- as "the right man" for these times, without comment.
5
I hope that MBS is the real deal and that his reforms in Saudi Arabia work out as portrayed here. However, his foreign policy is downright scary, and that is not helped by Friedman's uncritical presentation of it here. Saudi Arabia has been a far greater source of instability in the Middle East than Iran; Iran's biggest sin has always been that it will not kowtow to a regional order dominated by a self-serving -and frequently grossly incompetent - United States. But that hardly means that it is the regional problem. Saudi Arabia is interested in being the regional hegemon; so is Iran, which is a much bigger country and has a powerful claim to regional pre-eminence, especially given the hostile actions of the US and its various proxies in the region. SA is willing to commit a spectacularly vicious and cruel war in Yeman and to try to force Lebanon's PM to resign after kidnapping him, a sign of Saudi Arabian "over-reach" far more than Iranian over-reach. SA is trying for a regional power-play that has a much better chance of sowing regional division and chaos. MBS likes Trump because Trump is an idiot who is easily played for a fool by the far more canny political leaders of the ME (look at how Trump is now threatening the Palestinian mission in the US if the Palestinians don't withdraw their case against Israel at the ICC, another sign of the Israeli tail wagging the American dog.) The incompetence in Washington only encourages regional actors to fill the growing void.
8
Thomas is now a big believer of Saudi judicial system. The same Saudi system that beheads people for minor infractions on daily basis.
Hopefully your lamb was tender. Precious!
6
The Saudis don't behead people for minor infractions. And they don't carry out executions on anything like a daily basis. That doesn't excuse the practice, which is morally heinous. I don't support capital punishment. But effective critics need to have their facts straight.
I hope for the best, but after the failures of previous Arab Springs in the Middle East I am highly skeptical. And this is a country that just allowed women to drive. Hmmm.
1
A little too much fawning adulation here and not enough critical balance. MBS may be a healthy breath of fresh air for Saudi Arabia but one must question his wisdom in taking advice from late night talkfests with Jared Kushner, whom many are calling the "worst foreign policy advister in the White House."
7
Mr Friedman were so disappointed you approve of extra judicial arrests, lack of judicial process, general police state methods to enforce a decreed judgement. And did you ask about the $500m yacht, the eagerness to misuse American weapons of war. I have a used car I want to sell you
3
Meanwhile:
"DailyMail can disclose that the arrests have been followed by 'interrogations' which a source said were being carried out by 'American mercenaries' brought in to work for the 32-year-old crown prince, who is now the kingdom's most powerful figure.
'They are beating them, torturing them, slapping them, insulting them. They want to break them down,' the source told DailyMail"
4
What a great and timely piece good NYT
I do believe that this Crown Prince would be something of an enlightened despot. Obviously, enlightened despotism is superior to unenlightened despotism. It is even probably superior to democracy.
But he's still a despot.
2
Rights? In the Saudi-Wahabbi theocracy? I'll believe it when I see it.
The rights of girls and women? The rights of Shiites and other non-Sunni Muslims? The rights of Christians, Jews, Bahá’ís, Hindus – of all religions? The rights of the LGBTQ community? The rights of immigrants, guest workers, tourists – anyone who falls foul of local laws? Non-human animal rights? The right to a trial by jury? Independent judges? The right to sue a member of the Saudi Royal Family?
In a nation-state and jurisdiction where a person can be beheaded for adultery or apostasy, there are no rights worth speaking of.
4
"I have returned from Germany with peace for our time." Neville
Chamberlain, 9/30/38. Walter Duranty, NYTIMES Pulitzer
price winning journalist, 1932, was criticized for
minimizing the famine that spread though the USSR in his
reports. Sorry, Tom a 4 hour interview with bin Salman and a
few days visit , does not give readers an insight into
what is really taking place with the Wahhabis (9/11-15/19), the Iran/Saudi
problem, and the role oil is affecting Saudi policies. The Prince is
still a puzzle.
2
I thought Mr. Friedman is more sophisticated than that. Would he sit down with Putin or any other head of state and just believe what he is being told? What other evidence Other than his words does he have? Some arrests made of people who are most likely involved in a power struggle with him?
By all information publicly available, Saudi Arabia has a ruling family with hundreds of princess. In the news, we see only upper-class people, where are the average people, where do they live? We know less about the people in Arab countries than we know about people in NK.
5
Isn't this what Putin did in Russia after getting rid of Yeltsin?
2
This whole "Arab Spring" thing reminds me of the Minnesota Vikings who year after year seem to always find a way to break their Fan's heart. In one, people are disappointed, in the other they die.
1
I never thought I would read that Toby Keith performing in Saudi Arabia is proof of a dramatic shift in the Middle East. I beg to differ.
3
What about the $1/2 billion yacht and $100 family vacation in Morocco? Just that is .6% of the total of the shakedown. Will he return this?
Will he build a hospital for the children sickened or injured from his attacks?
Will he allow at least one church, or temple to be built for the millions of Hindus and Christians working in Saudi?
3
I wouldn't count on much change. Corruption tuns too deep.
2
Really? What of reports that contractors who used to work for Blackwater are in Saudi Arabia right now torturing some of the 'detainees' who are MBS's relatives? Stories that detainees are being hung upside down by their feet and tortured?
Doesn't 'smell' like freedom and tolerance to me.
4
Yes, and we are “complicit” by way of Trump and Blackwater!.. Eric of Blackwater lives in UAE, and he meets with campaign/administration of Trump regularly, and is making millions/billions off of SA! And, they’re torturing!!! #notinmyname
1
It is true - Saudi Arabia has a bad track record with regard to its domestic and global policies. But the USA is hardly free of blame itself when we look back at SA's past shenanigans.
So I agree with Friedman here that we need to look at the current SA developments with a "glass half full" attitude. No one can predict the outcome, and after all those failed Arab Springs I have significantly lowered expectations. But fair is fair; the current developments appear to be a step in the right direction. Our dislike of Trump (and his ridiculously pompous visit recently to Saudi Arabia) should not blind us to the point where we would dismiss these SA developments outright.
1
How can anyone trust someone who thinks "Trump is the right person at the right time" ?
3
Tolerance is one thing and full and equal human rights for all is another.
You cannot be called a ''moderate'' if you do not accept this universal fact and do everything in your power to bring it about immediately.
Not gradually over decades. ( if at all )
2
Call me cynical, but will MBS be ushering this era of “enlightened” self interest from the deck of his new $550 million yacht?
2
Interestingly Mr Freidman ,an established confidant of the USA intelligence community and often a purveyor of its outlook, had nothing to say about the USA role in the ongoing Saudi turmoil .
THAT cannot possibly be with the huge intertwining in Saudi and USA interests .
in economic affairs, security of the region and common ,often enough, political outlook at ARAB affairs particularly now with the DEAL MASTER in command of USA affairs .
Freidman happens to know, or pretends to know, more than the average pundit
2
This ignores a whole lot of facts. So far, I see Yemen dissolving into famine and Saudi Arabia buying a lot of weapons from the "free" world. I'm not sure another autocrat repressing other autocrats is the answer to the problem of autocracy (just like kleptocrats self-dealing is a problem).
4
Could be. Salman has his oligarch relatives by the throat now, but one imagines they are not totally defanged. Similarly the clerics have had two generations to brainwash the lower classes and they must be actively plotting as well.
One of Friedman's problems is that he makes friends among the globally-minded classes around the world and extrapolates opinions based on a small unrepresentative sample. One shouldn't take his views on the path of Saudi society any more seriously than his similar views on the US 18 months ago.
That said, I hope he's right. Just that's not a strategy.
3
Saudi Arabia is quite conservative, and the Wahhabi strain of Islam is even less open to new ideas. The crown prince may have great plans to modernize his country, but extremists similar to those that flew airliners into the Twin Towers would happily martyr themselves in defense of the status quo. Jared Kushner may be his new buddy, but he should remember what happened to Anwar Sadat of Egypt after he made peace with Israel. His own soldiers assassinated him during a military parade.
63
M.B.S is following the playbook of Saddam Hosein. The same way Saddam brutally purged everyone else that could oppose him. Stalin did the same thing.
Mr. Friedman was wrong on the Iraq war and he is wrong again here. He is glorifying the next Saddam in the region as a "reformer".
I am with Mr. Friedman in his fervent wish, that this "Arab Spring" will actually lead to real, positive, and lasting change in Saudi Arabia, and perhaps the Middle East.
However, just as Mr. Friedman's overly optimistic analysis of the past Arab Springs, for example in Egypt, was completely off base, colored, as his analyses mostly are, by the last person he talks to, and by a blue-eyed unrealistic assessment of what social media can do, I fear this optimistic analysis too will prove to be wildly off.
4
Two words: male guardianship.
If they lift it, only then will I be impressed.
Otherwise, it just seems like they are scared of Iran, the Internet and low oil prices.
7
Well said. Driving is good, choosing your route and destination without required supervision or permission is far better.
It's still early days, and Friedman's enthusiasm reminds me of Voltaire's for "early Frederick the Great" or Beethoven's for "early Napoleon". Both of those cases ended in endless war and despotism. So, we shall see...
5
According to the Jerusalem Post, two Saudi officials visited a synagogue in Paris.
http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/In-possible-nod-to-Israel-top-Saudi-off...
That is a remarkable event. Will Saudi Arabia take the next step and establish diplomatic relations with Israel?
1
I hope MBS will fulfill his dream so that one day Arabia Felix becomes a reality. It is in my heart that our Jewish cousins and Israel were meant to help us live in an advanced society. Why not! Arabic and Hebrew are sister sematic tongues and judiasm was among us and in us before Islam and Islam came for peace for all.
2
An unrealistic pollyanna view based upon superficial indicators. This is a ridiculous prediction of an awakening. The divisions are too great and what will be viewed as ultra rich “infidel” Islamic leaders will not fly. The ultra rich changing historic hate and ignorance and shariah law is beyond absurd.
7
When LGBTQ Saudis can live freely and openly, without fear of being murdered for their "crimes," I'll pay attention to Saudi Arabia's modernization. Until then, it is just a barbaric society deserving of condemnation and marginalization.
3
Thats a tall order. They cannot even do that here in the USA yet.
2
Sounds like Friedman is being held against his will a la Hariri to talk such glowing stuff about MBS --with all the carnage in Yemen.
Let's wait until Friedman leaves the country (with his children) to hear what he really thinks about this power grab dressed up as modernity (so that Western backers will not balk and might sing in tune).
Saudis want peace and freedom, not wars in Lebanon, Yemen or Iran.
6
As de Toqueville said, the most dangerous time for a bad regime is when it tries to reform itself. Hopefully this will prove true and the Arabian peninsula can throw off the proprietary name Saudi and carry out a real liberation from the medieval bondage in place now.
6
Elsewhere in the Times, we see ample evidence of the war crimes the Saudis are inflicting in Yemen. Yet Friedman devotes a scant paragraph to this horrific war, backed by the US and masterminded by this Prince, ending with the surreal notation that the one missile fired by the Houthis towards Riyadh is "problematic." I note that all four of his short, simplistic paragraphs on foreign policy do not appear in the print edition.
11
Someone asked whether Tom Friedman asked for access to those detained so as to get their perspective.
Did he ask Mohammed bin Salman (MBS) if his cousin, Mohammed bin Nayef is being detained under house arrest? Did he ask to talk to Mohammed bin Nayef?
Did he ask MBS what was going on with Lebanon's Prime Minister resigning on Saudi soil, and what Saudi Arabia's intentions are in Lebanon? Was Saad Hariri forced or coerced to resign by MBS? Saad Hariri's main source of income is Oger Construction, which is based in Saudi Arabia. I have not seen a single Saudi official source deny reports that Hariri was detained and forced to resign. And consider that it was also reported on these pages that Mohammed bin Nayef was also held against his will until he resigned as Crown Prince. So this seems to be MBS' MO.
And did Mr. Friedman ask this upstart prince about his murderous war on Yemen, the poorest country in the Arab world? Of course not!
I will never forget that Tom Friedman supported the war against Iraq (a country that had not attacked the USA) on these pages. And look how that turned out! All those killings and miseries. And all based on a lie too!
He likes to portray himself as an expert journalist on the Middle East, but the facts are there for us all to see, if we'll only be observant and remember his past reporting and analysis on this important region. And by the way, I have read everything he has written on these pages and some of his books too.
12
great article , as an American living in the middle East , and my kids born in Dubai , we have a lot of friends that are suadi , before you come you listen to the stereo type , then when you come and live with them you understand how different they are from the stereo type , I am sure MBS will succeed since he is talking to the majority , all I can say God bless him
1
Although MbS mentions a potential European historical parallel with Hitler and Iran, it would be more accurate to look at the 1848 Spring of Nations, where one saw a little immediate political change after numerous fizzled out revolutions (sound familiar?). Europe was a basket case (politically) for a majority of the 19th c. I would bet the parallels between Europe's history and the Middle East's resemble more of the 1840s, not 1940s in the coming decades.
1
Really, Mr Friedman?? This is the same guy who made a $500 million impulse purchase of a Russian oligarch's yacht...where did that money come from?? His allowance? He also boasted that he would gladly drop $10 million for a night with Kim Kardashian, is largely responsible for the horrific humanitarian crisis in Yemen and is clearly angling for war with Iran. It appears your fixation on a top-down solution to reform in Saudi Arabia blinds you of the fitness of the agent and the potential consequences if he is unsuccessful. My concern is MBS is no better than the rest of them and is paying lip service to reform to cloak his power grab.
7
I spent 7 years talking to my wife living in Saudi Arabia before we were married. She is from the Philippines and worked at a hospital there. I learned just what a scary place it was. She had to sneak out to go to worship at a Christian "church". Just to go to church she had to risk being arrested by the Mutawa or worse. I don't think we as Americans we can honestly imagine what it is like to risk it all to go to church.
2
This seems to be an obsession with mr Friedman. Writing, postulating and bashing the Saudis. I will ask mr Friedman the same question again. How many times have you traveled to Saudi Arabia?.. how many contacts within the government do you know? Do you converse with them regularly? Mr Friedman still believes that Saudi Arabia poses an existential threat to America because of its governments role in the 9/11 attacks. Mr Friedman, this country should stop focusing on an event that took place almost twenty years ago. There are those who want to keep this country wrapped in a warm blanket of fear and grief like its their favorite horror movie they cannot see enough of. This country because of its endless militaristic culture, and its boy dictator president, is what mr Friedman should be writing about. And obsessing over.
1
I hope this is true. Saudi Arabia has its own version of Fox News which has spread this extremist sect of Islam across the Middle East, so if this prince is serious about the reforms this really could change the whole world.
1
"...the Saudis and their Arab allies were slowly building a coalition to stand up to Iran."
this should say that the saudis and their arab allies are quickly building a coalition to sit down with iran....and baghdad, damascus, aleppo, raqqa, erbil, ankara, beruit, jerusalem, amman, sana and aden.
religion of peace. arab spring, not middle eastern winter.
2
"he praised President Trump as 'the right person at the right time'"
This should have been a red flag for any remotely intelligent reporter. What he really means is taking advantage of a corrupt simpleton and colluding with Netanyahu to draw the US into a war with Iran.
Hopefully Trump is impeached before he can finish his plot.
17
Is the bombing of civilians in Yemen, a war that MBS is clearly behind and that the United States support actively, a part of this Arab Spring, or is it just something they to for entertainment?
5
The US is implicated in the biggest humanitarian crises in the world caused by Saudi bombing in Yemen (over 200K in danger of cholera death). We are seen as the providers of the bombs and war tools. MBS may be a reformer and that's good but war crimes will lead to the instability and eventual fall of the House of Saud. The chaos and excessive violence (bombing of hospitals) doesn't look good on anyone's resume. I feel sorry for all parties. An unnecessary blood bath. A black eye for the US.
2
I want to know 'when' M.B.S. started this coup, if that's what is really happening. The reference to Independent UK article about M.B.S. buying a yacht was an article published Oct. 18, 2016 - which would mean this M.B.S. thing is an ongoing thing, and nothing is really new is happening in Saudi Arabia.
So, Mr. Friedman, what's really going on? Trump marketing, or what?
This article reeks of exclusive access to a dictatorship being granted for a PR coup by the kingdom. Meanwhile, Iran has more influence, hard and soft power within the region as they rearrange the deck chairs.
6
One must respect Tom Friedman and his insights. But the continuing and still vitriolic holy war between shiite and sunni (iran and Saudi Arabia) and its expression in Yemen COUNTER his optimism. So, too, the alliance os M.B.S. - Netanyahu - Trump; one hardly sees a more open, free and stable world coming from that.
5
Friedman just glosses over the suffering this prince is causing in Yemen and the more suffering he is about to cause in Lebanon and Palestine. The prince wants to sell the Palestinians down the river in his bid form an alliance with Israel in order to curb Iran. His actions may start a new war in the middle east far worse than Yemen. The Prince should stick to internal reforms and leave the rest of middle east alone.
6
Dr. Tom, Saudi Arabia's young Crown prince in a hurry, M.B.S, may or may not signal another Arab Spring. We in the West must be mindful of Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli's words of wisdom in the 1800s: " The practice of politics in the East may be defined by one word: dissimulation."
1
"Iran indirectly controls four Arab capitals today — Damascus, Sana, Baghdad and Beirut. That Iranian over-reach"
Those are the four non-Sunni, mostly-Shiite Arab capitals. Of course the Shiites dominate, and that means Iran. That is not over reach, anything else would be Saudi over reach.
Yemen shares the Saudi peninsula, and has always been treated badly by the Saudis, not least because of its large Shiite community. Of course the Saudis don't dominate it, and it looks to Iran as the only available protection.
Lebanon was set up by France as the non-Sunni part of their holdings. It was the only nation for Christians, starting about 1/3 each Christian and the two Muslim sects. Over the years it has become predominately Shiite, who get along with the Christians as mutual protection against the Saudi Sunni fundamentalist dominance.
Syria is about 60% Sunni, but since French times it has been ruled by the minorities in coalition against that dominance. The only potential ally in the Muslim world has been Iran, since the Saudis want to crush all of those minorities.
Iraq we know, is famously Shiite, the Arab Shiites as opposed to the Persian Shiites, the dominant non-Sunni Arabs. How did Iran get that? By not invading and destroying the place. That isn't Iranian over reach, that was Dubya's over reach.
Iran is not the villain in that neighborhood.
If the Saudis really got moderate, they'd realize that and make up with Iran. But Friedman wouldn't like that.
21
Don't make up your own facts Sir, Houthis are one third of the population in Yemen, not the Majority.
M.B.S is doing this for the benefit of his own country, We have not seen this before in Saudi Arabia, to those who want to be critical of him will not matter. I for one happy to see someone taking the Extremist Ideology and corruption in the country, that is the beginning I hope.
4
First thing M.B.S. needs to do is STOP the flow of Saudi money to Wahabi Madresses around the world where 90% of the terrorists are being trained. Otherwise, our world and the civilized world will continue to suffer from terrorist attacks even if M.B.S. succeeds in reforming SA--which is doubtful!
7
Dear Mr. Friedman,
I understand and respect how deeply you want pluralism, social progress and democracy to take hold in the Middle East. That is a laudable vision.
Unfortunately, the same idealism informed your support of the Iraq War. Granted, we don't have sway over how Saudi Arabia is governed. In fact, America has been ultimately toothless in the face of Saudi militarism against Shiites, especially in Yemen.
We readers need you to bring us objective information about Saudi Arabia and the Middle East. You are well versed in this complicated part of the world. Please, don't get so carried away drinking the Kool-Aid that you lose sight of the big picture unfolding, separate from the talking points and denials of consolidated power.
12
Really! This reads like a promotion. As others have commented this ignores the totalitarian nature of the Saudi regime - MBS's youth does not mitigate that political reality. If I want to hold up a Saudi hero and leader it will be Waleed Abulkair (who is currently cruelly and unjustly imprisoned for a lengthy term by this regime for promoting human rights and genuinely free and democratic forums within Saudi society) and the countless other Saudi human rights advocates the Saudi royal have unjustly imprisoned before Abulkair.
16
Oh, well since when does a dictator grabbing power become a good thing? If there is corruption should not the the leader show a best practice and systematically tackle it. It seems like extortion as the kindom is in need of money to pay for the weapons that they buy from the USA.
If this happened in USA there would be blood on the street as the Gov't would be viewed as taking over! Time to take up arms.
Whfy does the USA preach freedom of right and deomocracy for all - but Saudi
MONEY
7
I question the existence of any “Arab spring” anywhere. This phenomenon seems to be a western fantasy, or a heavily financed, and promoted subterfuge by western nations. Can anyone identify where the “spring” had any lasting effects? Did arabs genuinely desire this “spring”?
2
I truly wish him success God Willing. if history is any lesson, he better have the best protection detail imaginable.
3
But for their production of oil the Saudi's would be of no interest to most of the world. It is unlikely that a culture ossified by decades of cash flow from a single commodity will somehow easily transition to a more "open and moderate"society.
Throwing your enemies in jail for corruption, tax evasion, etc and
without due process is standard procedure for totalitarian regimes.
The Saudi Royals, loathsome and vile , are racing to lower the expectations
of their people in exchange for such revolutionary ideas as women driving
or couples walking hand in hand. Pathetic.
This is just business for them. They care nothing of their people.
11
This appears too good to be true, usually, that indicates that it is. MBS has some long overdue ideas for the modernization of his country but clings to the age-old rivalry between Sunnis and Shites. So, in the end, the feud between the Hatfields and McCoys continues, much as before. The one difference they have American support to buy a new arsenal of military weapons and hardware. Trump and his Administration can't see the forest for the trees either, he is easily distracted by a shiny orb and a golden throne.
Maybe, there is something unfulfilled in mankind that has led to an us versus them mentality. This kind of thinking has become a worldwide plaque and taken root in America, Democrats vs Republicans, Evangelists above all others.
96
Yes, it's deeply embedded in mankind--it's called greed. It makes enemies of different sects of the Muslim religion, just like the old enmity between Catholics and Protestants. It's not really over religion, of course--it's hegemony over land or wealth.
In this crazy time of ever more horrific weapons of warfare (conventional and digital,) isn't it time to declare a truce?
How many Hitlers and Kissingers and Cheneys does it take to wake us up?
1
"Misogyny is the religion of the planet." As we saw in the near election of HRC as president, and as we see daily from daily reports of attacks, humiliation, abuses toward women trying to bring their talents to many fields, misogyny still thrives and religion is often behind much of this anti-woman, anti-female belief system (that men are inherently superior and women inherently inferior). The absolutist, black and white paradigm serves those in power, generation after generation.
Who told you to accomplish things in your mind. It’s the PEOPLE who made the accomplishments. To put it bluntly, government without giving people a decision making, always fails.
4
Also, we should never forget that Saudi Arabia is not very important to US interests in the region, save for oil, and the transfer of some of their enormous wealth to the US in exchange for our acting as the House of Saud's bodyguard. Witness all those billions of dollars spent on US weaponry, but when push came to shove with Saadam Hussein, it was Anerican boys who did the fighting and dying.
The real challenge for US diplomacy in the region is engaging Iran positively now and in the future. Iran is an infinitely more important country for US interests than Saudi Arabia. And it also has an ancient civilization that is much more savvy than the Saudis. Witness how they have deftly gained the upper hand through their operations in the region. They do not talk, but somehow they achieve their goals. I posit that is a sign of intelligence!
12
If Saudi Arabia can get all the way back to the 12th century, maybe theres hope that the rest of the Middle East will stagger all the way to the 16th. Given the iron grip of fundamentalism, tribalism, ignorance and intolerance in that part of the world, we shouldn't hold our breath. None the less, we can hope.
4
Shame on you, Mr. Friedman. "Saudi Arabia's Arab Spring," indeed.
You can't start a "Spring" by rounding up people like Prince Al-Waleed and putting them under house arrest without probably cause. Al-Waleed, whom Time Magazine has called the "Arabian Warrent Buffet", announced in 2016 that he would donate his $18 billion fortune to charity, citing the need to foster cultural understanding and empower women. He has spent a great deal of time in the West, including (but hardly limited to) the time he spent earning a bachelor's degree from Menlo College in California and a masters with honors in social science from Syracuse University. It would be fair to say that Al-Waleed is an enlightened individual, certainly by Saudi Arabian standards.
Why was Al-Waleed arrested? Because he is a threat to the Crown Prince, due to the fact that Al-Waleed has built a personal fortune, has strong business connections (and an army of lawyers) world-wide, and is smart and savvy. He would be a force for tolerance in his society, not a force for oppression.
Mr. Friedman, you seem to have simply bought whatever line the Crown Prince was selling you, apparently because he's young, telegenic, and was nice enough to grant you a long interview.
A fair and balanced article? I think not.
20
Fair and balanced is the farsical faux news joke of a tagline. Educated adults - normally - have the ability to understand what an opinion piece is. (It is, after all, in the “opinions” part of the paper.)
This is clearly Friedman’s opinion, and thoroughly caveated throughout - had you and many others - bothered to notice. An opinion piece from a person who’s spent his entire adult life travelling in, studying, and analyzing the middle east. He probably knows a lot more about it than you - or anyone else on this thread.
So feel free to disagree and show your ignorance while doing so (so far everyone commenting has). But attacking Friedman is bang out of order.
Believe it or not, for business reasons I happen to know something about Prince Al-Waleed. Mr. Friedman may have traveled, studied and analyzed the Middle East, but so have I. Your reply to my comment contains no information whatsoever demonstrating that my statements about Prince Al-Waleed in particular are incorrect.
All you have done is assert, for unexplained reasons, that no one has the right to challenge anything Mr. Friedman has stated ("But attacking Friedman is bang out of order"). Mr. Friedman's "opinion" reads like the Crown Prince's spinmeister reviewed and approved it before it was published. I expect more from Op-Ed columnists in this newspaper.
And just for the record, I fervently hope Saudi Arabia is able to cast off the religious shackles that have left it so far behind the developed countries of the world. Whether the Crown Prince is someone who will be able to make this happen remains to be seen.
Ironically enough, prince Bin Salams plans to "reform" Saudi Arabia reminded me about the so-called «White Revolution» of the Shah of Iran in early 60’s !
Mr. Friedman has probably read that part of the history of the ME & remembers how that "reform" process ended: The west continued to support Shah’s corrupt and tyrannic regime which in turn opened the way for Islamists to take over Iran in 79 islamic revolution.
We should ask a logical question about the prince and his father the king in a country like Saudi Arabia with boundless corruption spread throughout all levels of the society: Why should we believe that this coming King is free of corruption or is not a future tyrant? Personally I think he already acts like one.
6
Do those disagreeing with TF's endorsement of and enthusiasm for MBS's reforms have a better model for the Muslim world to follow?
TF is absolutely correct to declare that except for Tunisia, the various "Arab Springs" have been an absolute, bottom up disaster. The Syrian revolution urged on by President Obama and supported by Sec of State Clinton had grassroots fervor but no central control and the result has been a humanitarian nightmare. Libya is a failed state and Egypt is once again under military control. Iraq? Fourteen years of continual upheaval.
MBS's top-down approach is the answer to a prayer -- but so many commenters cannot see past his flaws to at least reservedly appreciate the potential MSB's liberalizing of Saudi society has for the rest of the Middle East.
A Saudi royalty more in step with the free world is also much more likely to engage in discussions regarding Saudi overreach in Yemen.
The charges being leveled against MBS have the biased dogmatic ring of the Islamic right, only in this case it is liberal orthodoxy that wags its finger and refuses to accept the Prince's historic and courageous attempt to move his country into the 21st Century.
Stop your naysaying, you perfectionists, and take a deep breath of Saudi Arabia's Arab spring -- the best news out of the Middle East since I do not know when.
68
The problem isn't Saudi Arabia or the ME, it's Islam. There is no, zero, history of democracy, tolerance for secular norms or freedom of the press (the gold standard of democracy) anywhere Islam is in the majority. If you're going to base your government on a book that tells you to kill people who drop the religion, draw a cartoon of your prophet or get divorced, your going very far.
Sound like Saudi propaganda to me. The Saudis are committing war crimes in Yemen with the aid of the US. Freidman manages to skate over that fact. By their action are they known.
3
Wow. Usually, we liberals are being lambasted for our naivete in embracing flawed liberators and reformers in our quixotic quest for utopia. Recently, a commentor even decried our support for Nelson Mandela and his anti-apartheid movement, because of the actions of the present leader of South Africa.
Now, it seems, we are to be vilified for not jumping on the M.B.S. bandwagon quite so quickly as some would like.
Perhaps we liberals aren't so naive after all?
Of course I am gladdened by reforms that are taking place in Saudi Arabia. And rooting out corruption is always a worthy goal.
But as a liberal, I object to the belittling of bottom up reform movements - ones that are generated by the people themselves, not their dictators. Instead of minimizing Tunisia's accomplishment as an exception that delegitimizes it, and wholeheartedly embracing M.B.S. as the model for dicratorial reform without question, I say that we should embrace Tunisia's model as being one that achieves lasting success for the right reasons and be skeptical of M.B.S.'s, because it often fails due to the tendency of power to corrupt and for reforms to last only until the next autocratic ruler comes along.
Of course we should appreciate M.B.S.'s potential in liberalizing Saudi society. We should also maintain a healthy skepticism towards him and an agenda that is not altogether clear.
3
"The dysfunction and rivalries within the Sunni Arab world generally have prevented forming a unified front up to now, which is why Iran indirectly controls four Arab capitals today — Damascus, Sana, Baghdad and Beirut." Funny how Mr. Friedman doesn't want to give Obama credit for at least some of the Iranian successes. With the exception of Beirut, Obama's failed policies increased Iranian influence.
1
Friedman, judging from his past writings, appears to favor the top down approach. In one of his recent pieces he wrote quite glowingly of the marvels of American aerotech used to rain down death and destruction on our putative enemies and the enemies of our "ally", the house of Saud. He described it with the fervor of a gamer extolling the thrill of a violent video game. To him it is a game, not so much for those on the receiving end.
MBS has wrought havoc in Yemen with material provided by the U.S., something implicitly approved of by Friedman, no surprise there, all in the name of a nebulous foreign policy that aligns itself, over the years, with some of the worst actors in the ME. I have yet to hear a clearly articulated ultimate goal of policy, so I will continue to assume the worst, that the only interest is that of the string-pullers who seek to profit from hydrocarbons that are dangerously altering the atmosphere.
65 percent of Saudi's population is under thirty and yet there are no Saudi boots on the ground in Yemen? Why? Perhaps because of the billions of dollars in military aid supplied by the U.S. and the fact that the entitled youth of Saudi Arabia can't even supply the labor needed to build their own country let alone fight its wars. The shared values between our country and their's exist only between their respective oligarchies. I suggest to Friedman that he eschew the late night feasts and report on why and how the U.S. can disengage from the ME.
16
Tom Friedman's article barely mentions the man-made humanitarian disaster in Yemen- Saudi actions there do not represent Islam or any other religious tradition for that matter.
The relationship with President Trump is also very troubling- a deal to add $110 billion of US armaments to any regime in the Middle East also defies ethical or moral values, religious or not. HIstory has proven, as Tom Friedman well knows, that solutions in the Middle East will require much more diplomatic power and much less destructive power.
More than anything, this article conveys Mr. Friedman's fascination with Saudi culture and how easily he is seduced by the trappings of a wealthy monarchy that, along with its unholy alliance with the US, will continue to lose influence in the region for the foreseeable future.
.
10
It really sounds as if Friedman was seduced by the trappings of Saudi extravagance and taqiya in the same way that Trump was during his recent visit.
2
Mr. Friedman strikes me as the Neville Chamberlain of journalists.
I no more agree with Friedman’s assessment of MBS’s motives regarding Saudi Arabia and its neighbors than I did with his initial optimism about the U.S. invasion of Iraq in 2003. I am very suspicious of the manner with which MBS took control over the princes, his own apparent corruption, further inflammation of Shiite-Sunni tensions, the blatant attempt to isolate Iran, actions taken against Saudi Arabia’s neighbors, and his meeting with Kushner just days before MBS’s coup.
Many years ago I heard Mr. Friedman lecture about his optimism that Islam was about to issue a new release: Islam 2.0. Sure, the world would benefit from less dogmatism and tyranny in all its religions. But Friedman’s optimism has yet to be justified. Yet that has not stopped him from seeing every major shift in the Middle East as evidence that his vision is finally coming true.
12
I’ve read inklings of MBS’ campaign to reform Saudi society in recent weeks, and Tom Friedman’s interview is the most thorough and hopeful overview of the youthful ruler’s progressive intentions. Friedman’s enthusiasm is infectious, but I wish I could forget his breathlessly effusive predictions of a modern democratic Middle East on the eve of the 2003 invasion of Iraq – that we’d better hold onto our seats for a wild ride. I wish I could forget about the scale of destruction of the Middle East these last 15 years – of the hundreds of thousands killed; the millions uprooted and driven to refugees; the cities bombed to rubble; the loss of ancient and modern relics; the failed popular revolutions in Egypt, Iran, Bahrain, Syria; the lawless, failed states and the triumph of authoritarianism in the Middle East and beyond.
If I could forget all that, I might let go of my strong sense that optimism can be our worst enemy.
8
A benevolent dictator, or a new Saudi taxation system that shakes money from people with a one-man court? In order to have a meaningful change in a country, it must be systemic. Everything else is a revolution strongly tied to an individual that starts degenerating after the person is gone.
5
"The crown prince has big plans to bring back a level of tolerance to his society."
It will be an Arab spring in Saudi Arabia when it is a Saudi president or Prime Minister who wants to make the changes and not an autocratic, enlightened Saudi dictator, scion of Saudi dictators.
8
When something seems to good to be true, rest assured, it is.
6
The people of Zimbabwe thought that Robert Mugabe was a progressive, reformist leader back in 1980. Sadly, he was anything but. In regards to reforms in Saudi Arabia, count me as skeptical.
6
MBS is aiming to be the Ataturk of Saudi Arabia while keeping Saudi Arabia an Islamic country. Friedman hopes he succeeds but too many things argue against it. First, his heavy handed foreign adventurism is going to backfire. Opposing Iran requires more than brute force. The most effective would be if Saudi Arabia were to spearhead a movement to reconcile the Sunni and Shiite populations. His approach is only exacerbating the divide. Domestically the whole educational system needs to reform emphasizing the importance of critical thinking to produce a generation that can transform Saudi society. Even if this actually happened it would take another generation before Homo Sauditus can become Homo Modernus. I don't expect to see a very different Saudi Arabia any time soon, only some long overdue changes to make life for women more tolerable.
4
Recently, PBS. (Frontline?) examined life in Saudi Arabia. Something like 25% of the people live in abject poverty. They are forced to beg for money in the streets. They barely have enough to eat. Unemployment is sky high. Opportunity for the young, especially the males, is non existent. They don't have anything to do.
They live under brutal repression and fear. This may be claimed as a top down reformation, but it has to go a lot further down market to help the masses of poor in Saudi Arabia. Meanwhile, millions face imminent starvation in Yemen. That is no way to fight off the Iranians.
9
A good start only if transparency across government operations, training on conflicts, asset disclosure requirements, and other preventive measures are enforced going forward.
1
Mr. Friedman speaks of Saudi Arabia as if it existed in a vacuum rather than a pressure cooker. The real power in the region now is Russia, Iran/Iraq, and Turkey. Of course, the Chinese camel also has his nose under the tent as well. The Saudis have weaponized low oil pricing to control Russia and Iran and they have created their own poison as their bloated, corrupt bureaucracy is imploding. MBS is not putting the squeeze on fellow royals to stop corruption, but because the government is running out of money. The Russians and Iranians are just waiting for a misstep by the impulsive MBS to give them a reason to take over and take control of world oil pricing. The Saudis lost their proxy war in Syria and the next one will be on their doorstep and they know it. This is not the beginning of a Saudi Arab spring, but the prelude to a harsh winter of reckoning for Saudi-sponsored terrorism throughout the world.
6
Saudi Arabia remains an absolute monarchy dictatorship. Iran is a democratic theocracy as is Israel.
Saudi Arabia is Sunni and Iran is Shiite, each equally being Islam, with each version of Islam having ancient hatreds of each other.
Saudi Arabia and Iran are equally the source of unrest in the Middle East.
The 911 attack on the USA, was mostly by Saudi's and all were Sunni, and it had nothing to do with Iran.
Iran is still being punished by the USA for the excesses of its 1979 revolution, in which at a time when its revolutionary government, led by political technocrat President Banisadr, was in transition and not fully in control.
The USA long ago established friendly relations Germany, Japan and Vietnam, despite long wars. The USA has never been at war against Iran, except in 1973 when the CIA destroyed a real Iranian democracy to benefit the Oil industry, while placing the Shah in power as a dictator, resulting in the reaction of that Shah being kicked out in 1979 by a Peoples revolution.
So why is the USA so friendly with the overly oppressive Saudi dictatorship, while so hateful of the less oppressive Iranian democratic theocracy, after all these years? Apparently, Saudi Arabia's oil industry is more 'influential' and probably more dishonest than Iran's oil industry, to American politicians.
I doubt that M.B.S is as honest and well-intentioned as Thomas Friedman believes, and that Saudi Arabia will remain an extremely oppressive fundamentalist country.
417
I completely agree. I have never figured out why we are completely against Iran. If we can negotiate with North Korea which has nuclear bomb and is much much more oppressive than Iran.
I also did not understat why Me. Friedman who I highly respect, is willing to side completely with MBS and US. I suggest a few visits to Iran and taking to people there and even the Shi’a clerics may bring some balance to his opinion. I think he understands Sunni culture and politics much better that Shi’a.
BTW: I am Sunni
2
1953 coup and not 1973
1
Brian We really can't do anything about the past except try to change the systems that caused the problems. If the Saudis change and do so to benefit not only Saudi Arabia, but the entire region, I see this as a good change.
Meanwhile Iran has become more powerful and means for the destruction of "democracy" in the area. Also, the Iranian leaders have declared the destruction of Israel as one of their main policies.
2
Listen to the moderate elements of its religious base. Support the anticorruption drive that is trying to stop the super rich from killing the national spirit...
In America, corruption is so enshrined in the law that one can pay little or no taxes (Trump), never serve their country in a national service way, which I view as a corruption, serve a foreign master (Putin), and most importantly, one can serve the barbarians inside the gate, Global corporations, and still stride about the land like a Pharaoh.
Our American laws need to be changed so that the poor and the rich stand as equals, not as master and servant. If we took money out of politics, well, that would be a great first step on our own anticorruption drive.
Hugh Massengill, Eugene Oregon
8
Poor and rich stand as equals? No way. Why have someone who can't successfully manage their own affairs have control over mine?
So, I guess the wave of tolerance and progressivism comes after the complicity for mass-starvation and willing degradation of their neighbors to the South, Yemen?.... Im a big fan Friedman, but this a bridge too far. Or more accurately, a bridge too soon. Lets see Wahabbism really be put to rest and Women's rights truly represented in society before we crown this guy anything but a really rich authoritarian leader. And furthermore, just because 'you' spoke to a few Saudis who are happy to see less corruption and less hardliners doesn't mean MBS will not be bad in his own right. Just because you hope this is what happens Friedman, doesn't mean thats what will really play out.
I really hope MBS can bring Saudi Arabia out of their gold-ladened Dark Ages. I just think we need more time before we feel optimistic about it.
5
This is the Saudi prince who bought a half-BILLION dollar yacht on impulse, but who jailed many of his peers on charges of "corruption". It's a little disingenuous to say that this man will lead the Saudis to some kind of enlightenment. Didn't Mr. Friedman also advocate for the invasion of Iraq?
15
I believe that M.B.S. is doing it right, given the internal conditions and externalities. Internally, I will measure his success by how efficient he confiscates the half or so trillion dollars from princes and establishes commons, mainly education, health and the institutions to help modernize the Saudi society. Only by doing so can the young society escape the shackles of grotesque strand of Islam and tribalism and become democratic.
As for externalities this is a tough nut to crack. The famine in Yemen is steps away from becoming the most horrendous human crisis in the world. I see no other way but reaching out to the ayatollahs while bringing not the US but EU to help mediate the conflict between Sunnis and Shiites. Then he can diffuse the regional conflicts before it will turn unmanageable.
These would be great accomplishments. I wish him best of luck!
2
I think it's great meeting with ambition and optimistic man, he talked about the corruption and the great decision about the corrupts . And I think you talked about the BIG projects in the Middle East and maybe all the world too ( NEOM ) , it's great project and make us proud. And he make some partnership with ( soft banks). All this made in short time! And all the bad words what the haters said isn't true of course, I think it's great crown prince and the future with him will be SO GREAT, I can't wait to back to my country Saudi Arabia , we believe him.
1
The elephant in the room is MBS' belief that Donald Trump is the right man at the right time (assuming that refers to his hardline stance against Iran). If the Prince succeeds in modernizing world wide Islam, what will history have to say about Trump's role in the process?
3
I agree. His plans and ideas could totally transform the middle East for the better. Awesome potential!
The mega city, incredible!
Restoring Islam to what it was could revitalize the whole youth of the middle East.
Probably be a rocky road!
Wish him well and wish him success!
1
I am torn. I suppose this is a step in the right direction, and we should welcome Saudi Arabia and MBS's desire to advance the country's social and political order beyond its current Medieval state.
On the other hand, it is laughable that a dynastic ruler who's claim to authority, and more than his family's fair share of billions and billions of dollars worth of national treasure, rests on the specious grounds of being chosen by God.
By what standard are the corrupt Saudi "Ritz Carlton crowd's" gains more ill-gotten than those of the Saudi Royal Family? The fact that this theocratic band of authoritarians has managed 70 years of detente with an oil-thirsty West does should not be the only standard of its acceptability or legitimacy.
Wake me up when the oil money dries up and they try on democracy.
115
Tom Friedman seems to "trust" a regime that supports starvation and genocide in Yemen as part of its proxy war against Iran. An enlightened regime would seek a peaceful solution. As he has so often in the past, Friedman falls for the surface gestures of democracy and liberalization while willfully blinding himself to their history, their support of state terrorism, and their extortion of money and arms from the US. He really needs a cold shower.
Friedman describes, without any critique or qualification whatever, MBS' view of a "pro-Saudi legitimate government" in Yemen.
I have to wonder where exactly these two think government legitimacy comes from.
Abdrabbuh Mansour Hadi's only "election" involved no other candidates. He is only in Yemen, and nominally in charge, on the strength of Saudi bombs (and Yemeni starvation). The House of Saud themselves, of course, are an absolute monarchy, with a king and crown prince who live on unearned riches no less than their lately-checked "corrupt" kin. There is no will of the people, no consent of the governed, no principle of human rights, anywhere in the picture.
11
The societal ideals that M.B.S. says he's aiming for in this article - tech education, entrepreneurship, soccer for girls, an artful, more open society, etc, etc - ALREADY EXIST in Qatar. Why then punish the smaller (and richer per capita) country with a blockade, expulsion of citizens, a squeezing out of businesses?. I shall hope for the best, but something doesn't QUITE add up.
4
Is there objective evidence that demonstrates what the people of Saudi Arabia think of all this? Do they have hope? Do they approve? Are they confident?
3
MBS may be a better leader than his predecessors, but calling this an Arab Spring is off the mark. The Arab Spring was an effort to bring democracy to the Middle East, and MBS is not going to give his country that. His people might have freedoms under his rule that they didn't have under his predecessors, but those freedoms are not going to include the right to hold him accountable or oust him from power if he starts doing a bad job, and the flaws you cited make a catastrophic error reasonably likely. An Arab Spring that has nothing to do with democracy, that comes from the top and is all about fulfilling the ambitions of the man on top, and gives the people no say is not going to be a segue to any sort of Summer.
6
The Prince knows that his followers are heading toward difficult times- he has chosen to placate them with token gestures.
If he truly wishes to modernize the Muslim world, perhaps the greatest accomplishment will be having a non-volatile Middle East- with no wars. But the Shiite Iranians are the real problem- so he and Mr. Trump and Mr. Adelson say.
3
For a young age, M.B.S. seems to be a man of wisdom and everyone should hope that he is and also grows his wisdom.
If this movement to make Islam moderate succeeds and EVERYONE should hope that it does, this will TRULY be a globe-shattering event!
However, his wisdom, as yet, seems to have a limit and seems to stop at a chasm, at least for now. That chasm is the Saudi-Iranian chasm, aka Shia-Sunni chasm. Though Iran is no angel, by demonizing it he is missing out on an opportunity. The brutal proxy war against Houthi rebels in Yemen is the manifestation of such a mindset of course.
It is EXTREMELY unlikely that Iran, a very large country with its own capabilities, can be defeated militarily by Saudis directly through a war (which will be a catastrophe) and CERTAINLY not by proxy wars such as that in Yemen - EVEN with western support. Besides, Iran can count on support from Russians and possibly the Chinese as well.
Perhaps he can do the following. First, by truly making a difference in Saudi Arabia he can show the world - including Shia powers such as Iran - that he is progressive. He can then approach Iran and tell them - in good faith - that if they stop meddling he also will. The western powers will certainly back him up here.
If somehow that happens, perhaps Iranians also may get a cue from the Saudis and then they too will start an Iranian Spring (to the uninitiated, Iranians are no Arabs, hence a difference description).
How about that kind of possibility?
1
It is true that Saudi Arabia squandered its wealth for decades instead of investing it at home.
However, I am still not able to connect the dots as to what is going on in Saudi Arabia. Is there a bigger picture? What does it mean for the region? Is the recent Qatar embargo relevant?
Saudi Arabia is the main US proxy against Iran, trying to strangle Qatar and haplessly involved in Yemen. The US presence even in Syria is probably more due to Iran than due to ISIS. One indication was the recent agreement with ISIS allowing them to withdraw unharmed from Raqqa demonstrating that the capture of territory takes a higher precedence than eliminating ISIS. Plans by US to stay in Syria after ISIS is probably to drive a wedge into the Iranian crescent towards the Mediterranean. Coming back to Saudi Arabia; was a softening against Iran seen as an option? Was a Qatari model toward Iran being discussed? Was there a weakening of the (not so) secret Saudi-Israeli axis on the horizon? Hypothetical questions.
We should have learned by now to be sceptical when there is another coup in the Middle East. Even more so when it starts getting cheer-led in the Western media. And news about US security contractors in the Ritz doing the interrogation should raise some flags. To top it of, when it is being sold as fighting "corruption" one can be sure that it is not about corruption. As said before, I am still not able to connect the dots - but fighting corruption it is not. There is more to it.
147
I'm more hopeful now having read your analysis, though there are signs that make me very nervous. Analogies are seldom valid (though they are appealing) but I see some worrisome similarities between the promising MbS and once promising, now condemned Assad in Syria. They both interview well (from the points of view of us in the West), appear to have or have had intentions of modernizing their countries, but they are both willing to be terrifyingly ruthless to those who threaten them. We must be very careful here.
2
Most comments deride this as propaganda, as I first thought too. It's clear this Prince is speaking through Friedman to America, but it is not listening. It should.
This Prince realizes what China did 30 odd years ago: the West will bury it culturally and economically if it fails to fully modernize as the oil runs out. To do that it must first remove radical religion which despises modernity, just as it does here in the US. Trump has the interest to engage and support it whereas Obama felt it prudent to stay out of the MidEast given our failed track record and need for respite from 2 wars and our economic calamity.
A first step to democracy is modernization. Imagine a China and a Saudi Arabia as democracies and perhaps today we have something to be thankful for after all. Years of despotism makes us cynics of the MidEast: this Prince might make me a believer. Trust but verify, Mr. Friedman.
1
Gee, Mr. Friedman, I remember your support of the American invasion of Iraq--the shining model of American democracy would inspire and transform the Arab world. Didn't quite work out that way. I am equally skeptical of your optimistic take on recent events in Saudi Arabia.
9
If M.B.S. can actually start Islam back to a more moderate and peaceful faith, especially by lowering the influence of the Wahhabi factions, that in itself will be a huge step.
Also, important in the efforts of the Prince will be a successful end result. That will reawaken the "Arab Spring" mind set in the youth of other area countries and perhaps start them on a recovery of human rights and growth.
It is early in the Prince's undertaking but I wish him good fortune.
1
So, if Trump and M.B.S. are aligned on these reforms, which sounds like they may be necessary due to extremists taking over in 1979, then why is Trump tolerating and supporting white nationalist and religious right extremists? And, why is he supporting billionaires in our country siphoning off fortunes at the expense of the people. If Trump is supporting truly these efforts in SA, then why is he supporting the same sort of extremist groups and ideology in this country that has fueled and driven the Arab world since 1979? So, Trump may be the right person at the right time for SA, but it seems like he is sowing the same soil that M.B.S. is now looking to reform.
2
Dismaying to see that, after a somewhat skeptical column a couple of weeks ago, Friedman has reverted to his usual Saudi boosterism, seduced, as usual, by his access to bigwigs.
My perspective, as someone who's worked in the Kingdom for the past 10 years, is different. Of course, Saudi needs reform. No one--Saudi or otherwise--would deny it. And it's impossible to view MBS clipping the wings of the Salafist clerics as anything but a boon, though these moves are not as "sudden" as they're being portrayed in the Western media. King Abdullah actually paved the way four or five years ago with several reforms aimed at increasing women's participation in the workforce. And, as someone who teaches young Saudis, puritanism has been on the decline in KSA for some time. Most of my students are familiar with Game of Thrones, the Fast and the Furious, Breaking Bad, and other popular Western series.
However, Friedman's downplaying of MBS's foreign misadventures simply isn't going to wash. His intervention is Yemen is a disaster in every respect, and the crude attempts to bully Qatar and Lebanon bode very ill indeed.
And, while I like the idea of a top-down attack on corruption, I have to wonder if MBS can unravel decades of entitlement before the roof caves in. My current employer is attempting to "Saudi-ize" clerical and tech-support jobs that for decades have been performed by Filipinos and Pakistanis. But Saudi candidates for the jobs are simply not to be found at the going rate.
2
Mr. Friedman characterizes MBS as an idealistic champion for a moderate Islam and a visionary crusader against corruption. His evidence are the words of MBS himself and those of his supporters. As MBS and Mr. Friedman see it, a team of Saudi civil servants painstakingly collected data for two years compiling a list of two hundred names. Having finished this task, the government acts quickly and courageously to bring the criminals to justice. But the timing is curious. Here’s an alternate scenario. An elderly monarch disrupts generations of tradition by appointing his favourite son as crown prince, leading to discontent and grumbling among senior family members. Behind closed doors, plans are hatched to deal with a usurper, but the gentlemanly approach of royal Saudis is too slow. Word of a coup leaks to the US State Department and from there to POTUS, a known supporter of the new regime. A son-in-law is clandestinely dispatched to Riyadh where conversation lasts till early morning. Not long after, hundreds of powerful royal family members are arrested for corruption and held in a luxury hotel. Talk of an Arab Spring and a more pluralistic and tolerant society are spread to eager Western reporters. As for Hezbollah, Yemeni missiles and Qatari blockades, they are terrible destabilizing distractions. What better way to garner domestic support than to embroil yourself in international disputes.
6
Mister Friedman, if you haven't already, I would suggest you read Mary Doria Russell's two excellent science fiction books, The Sparrow and Children of God. They describe a planet that, like Saudi Arabia, has a rigid, ossified social structure. The first book describes humans' first encounter with that society, and the second describes a top-down attempt to reform it. Without giving too much away, I will only say it is cautionary. I wish MBS the best of luck. He's going to need it.
2
Mr. Friedman, What an insightful article! This Lebanese reader would prefer to see true democracy in S.A. - ultimately - but would, for now, settle for autocratic leadership such as that of the U.A.E., where the country was lifted in relatively short period to be one of the most sought-after places in the world to live and work. I have no doubt that the new Saudi leader wants the same thing for his country. I am rooting for him as well. Having said that, how come you never asked M.B.S. about the almost half-a-billion yacht that he purchased on a whim? Isn't that part of the profligacy he is trying to stop? Is the yacht owned by him personally or by the Saudi treasury?
1
The longest journey begins with the first step. As usual, Mr. Friedman offers an insightful view into the beginnings of positive change in a place where much is needed.
1
Thomas Friedman's analysis of the top-down purge is the most optimistic I've read. I have much respect for his expertise. But others have portrayed Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman's extralegal strike against fellow royals more as a palace intrigue than a reform. They have also noted that Saudi corruption is fundamental to the royal clan, and that includes MBS himself. Still others note that Putin also used anti-corruption purges to root out politically uncooperative oligarchs, only to replace them with his cronies from the FSB and military establishment, the so-called siloviki, who rapidly became billionaires themselves, and, of course, were always as corrupt, just less successfully so, as the oligarchs Putin purged.
Pardon, then, my skepticism. More persuasive, perhaps is the Crown Prince's move against Wahhabi medievalists, though how a less fundamentalist and intolerant form of Sunni Islam in Saudi Arabia will alter the Manichaean conflict with Shiite Islam mobilized by Iran is anyone's guess.
That Trump and Kushner are part of the "reform process" should give us all further pause before we accept that anti-corruption is the Crown Prince's real agenda.
267
I'm with you. He's just eliminating competing corruption so far. He has a lot to prove that he's not just consolidating power.
What the crown prince, Muhammad bin Salman, is doing may bring modernization to some aspects of Saudi society. It may even make the lives of women slightly less oppressive. But this is not a movement towards liberalization. It is a movement towards a more traditionally non-democratic society.
Saudi Arabia is not a constitutional system; in fact, it is hardly a "state" in the post-Westphalia sense of the term. The Saudi polity is based on "consensus building" on the basis of three constituencies: the House of Saud (Al Saud), the rest of the tribes, and the clerics. The Crown Prince wants to change this. When he talks about about "destroying extremism," he's not talking about breaking ties with Wahhabi clerics. He simply wants to put the clerics under the direct control of the State. This may result in less radical preaching, but it will also send many salafists underground.
Likewise, the take on "corruption" is a good joke. All princes in the House of Saud regard Saudi Arabia as their personal property. By any standards, there is no one in the upper echelons of the Saudi system who is not a crook.
Muhammad bin Salman is simply trying to consolidate power, to eliminate rivals, to create a pyramidal state, to erase dissent, within and without the House of Saud, as well as to demolish Iranian & Shi'i influence. This "reform" is not a dream; it's the beginning of another nightmare --- different from the current one, but a nightmare nonetheless.
1
Right-thinking people will share Friedman's hopes. Others will have more skepticism than he can authoritatively express. I for one worry that all his sources seem to be Western-educated English-speakers who, ipso facto, support "MBS". Only toward the end of the article does he note the persistence of a large rural population presumably wedded to the Old Regime. What does Friedman know about them - their numbers, their strength, the degree of support they might enjoy from within those elements of the royal family and elsewhere who have suddenly found themselves on the outs? It is from them and the traditional religious authorities that opposition can be expected to come. Does Friedman talk to them? Can he? The woman who asked him what he knew of Arabian regional cuisines may have been on to more than she - or anyway he - realized: that Western views of Saudi society, at least as depicted in even the elite Western media, have been superficial because those who retail them have always been, and continue to be, out of touch with all but the modernist elements in Saudi society. Can anyone tell us, or our policy-makers, what's happening in the country at large? Does anyone speak to - let alone for - the forces of conservatism? The future of Saudi Arabia doesn't depend on whether educated women can drive to their jobs as spokespersons for foreign NGOs!
1
There is no doubt that many Saudi youth desire liberalisation, however, it is important to realize that young people are not always more moderate by default. The people who traveled to join ISIS, or those who make up the alt-right in the U.S. have a relatively young profile, for example.
Sorry, but just because Friedman, the perpetual insider and toady for the elite, spent four hours with the Crown Prince and his cronies is it hardly enough to persuade me that Saudi Arabia is going through an Arab Spring.
Saudi Arabia has no democratic moorings that would in any way start moving power from the monarchy to the people. And worse than that, it has no capitalist philosophy grounded in the ethos of hard work that is needed to create an independent, sustainable middle class. The veneer of an American educated upper class yearning for change hardly represents the seething discontent of the millions that are under- or unemployed throughout the kingdom.
Matters are too far gone in Saudi Arabia. Only through a revolution of blood and years of chaos will the oil-soaked kleptocracy of this anachronistic monarchy be expunged from the Middle East.
America should learn from our experience with Iran and the Shah - we need to be distancing ourselves from the Saudi leadership, most particularly reducing sales of military hardware.
4
Saudi Arabia is a police state with very little hope of becoming anything resembling a democracy. Reform will consist of cosmetic changes to placate the younger generation and appeal to Western eyes. The state will seek to strengthen alliances with the US and Israel to curtail Iranian power, ultimately a futile strategy. History, geography and size all favor Iran.
1
I am amazed at how Friedman is eating up the populist nonsense MbS and his Dad are feeding him, the Saudis and the American patrons. What happened to the 2030 plan? And how about the overt interference in Yemen, Qatar, Lebanon, and Syrian affairs. The expropriation of the wealthy class' property has much more to do with the fiscal crisis of the Saudi state due to declining oil prices and out of control spending on foreign adventures and wars, than to a desire to root out corruption and return to fanciful good old days of liberal Saudi society. Frankly, if Trump had not been elected president, this sort of outrageous, irresponsible adventurism inside and outside KSA would have been unthinkable, and MbS openly confesses to that. We have here, the case of a failed rentier state unable to pay its clients in exchange for loyalty and compliance. So, let us not get too far ahead of ourselves. Revolutions from above have resulted in as many failures as those from below, and in the Saudi case, my money is on an "unthinkable" outcome and a humongous failure.
3
One of the great expositors of neoliberalism scrambles to claim to another victory, almost. In six months, everything he's written will come true. Nothing except violence, oppression, war-making, and global warming for profit has actually happened in Saudi Arabia; but Mr. Friedman can see the future, as usual. In six months, that's all it will take. Unlike all the others, this Arab Spring is going to work.
2
We have refined the art of corruption in the US. Now the wealthy and most powerful buy presidents and senators and congressman who pass laws, like tax "reform," to give the equivalent of kick backs to the wealthy and most powerful.
1
Great ideas and great intention by MBS. You have made a great point that religious and social moderation in Saudi has profound positive impact throughout the world, not just in Islamic countries.
However, what is MBS’s peace plan for Yemen? Or he is going to crush them and install a Saudi puppet? As an experienced journalist you should have challenged him. So why are the ayatullah’s bad by fighting ISIS (a Saudi creation in many ways) while it seems normal for Saudis to bring destruction through bombing and starve a nation for so long and the world is quiet?
Moreover, social reforms are important and necessary but what about judicial and government reforms? How is it possible to make Saudi Arabia a credible state when there is no protection for investment, or individual rights? As MBS said life can be short, so who and what comes after him?
Without rule of law, it is extremely difficult to expect anything profound and lasting reform. It is more about power grab than anything else. Next time please ask MBS if he thinks the purchase of 400 million dollar yacht fits his economic reform and the fight against waste and corruption.
2
One of your best op-ed pieces. Wonderfully informative. Embarrassingly I was not aware that Islamic extremism in Saudi Arabia was a relatively recent phenomenon predicated by political events in 79. Perhaps reform will be possible as the current system is not as deeply ingrained as I have imagined.
Cautiously optimistic.
I'm no expert on Saudi Arabia, but I did publish an article way back February 2011 called "1989 in the Muslim World?" that explicitly predicted the failure of the spring movement throughout the Middle East. Is Saudi Arabia going to be different? If there really is a strong consensus among young Saudis that change must come and Wahabism must go, then perhaps the Crown Prince's vision can be realized. I would very much like to know what the attitude of the Saudi armed forces is. Movements like this, directed by a small clique at the top, can be ended swiftly by assassination and coup. To what extent is the Saudi officer corps buying into the reform process? Unfortunately the author says nothing about this.
There are certainly other problems as well. For Saudi Arabia to challenge Iran is a very delicate thing. Iran is a real nation, organic, but I'm not so sure Arabia is. Open, direct conflict, as between Iran and Iraq in the 1980s, would almost certainly result in a Saudi defeat, unless we intervened on the Saudi side. And then there's the fact that the Eastern Province (where all the oil is) is overwhelmingly Shia. That's a potential powder keg. Saudi Arabia is not only involved in a difficult war in Yemen, but is also participating (with our help) in the suppression of democracy and majority rights in Bahrain, a Shia country ruled by a Sunni oligarchy.
I'm a pessimist by nature, but that aside, I have grave doubts that Friedman's analysis will prove prophetic.
2
I wish Saudi society and leadership all the best, but there are so many vital points that Friedman and virtually none of the commenters have addressed.
Salman hasn't been tainted by charges of corruption, but it only means he wasn't publicly accused of any; this doesn't mean either he or MbS are squeaky clean. The only difference is that they're in power so they can call the kettle black and get away with it. Don't forget MbS' famous 550m euro yacht form some time ago. MbS' biggest sin isn't that he's going too fast with reforms, it's that there's been brutal repression of protesters, jailing and executing opposition figured and dissidents, as well as perpetuating war in Yemen, messing with Lebanon and becoming overly hawkish against Iran and Qatar. Not to mention the racism against expats and specifically Yemenis after giving Saudis more jobs. The reforms are nothing but a distraction to get people in line and they're too afraid of jail or execution to say anything to the contrary. The optimistic Saudis are either willfully or blissfully ignoring these facts because they aren't able to have other opinions so it's easy to follow the leadership despite its reign of destruction and just go through the tired Iran whataboutism that has seeped into the core misguidedly they're better than Iran, therefore what they're doing is right.
2
Yes, but investors are still going to want to see the books before going for that IPO.
This was an interesting interview, but it begs the question of why the "inmates" of the Ritz-Carlton were not interviewed? I suspect M.B.S. did not permit it.
The young prince has a lot on his plate, but we should wish him well in an overhaul of the Kingdom, dragging it into the 21st Century kicking and screaming. After 38 years of Wahhabi dominance of Saudi society, it's difficult to believe they will meekly accede to M.B.S., not to mention the families and tribes who have enjoyed special privileges and treatment for decades.
If M.B.S. can successfully resolve the interstitial warfare that has existed for almost 1500 years between the Sunni and Shia, and actually unite Islam we may see a tidal change in Middle East geopolitics. That's a pretty heavy lift for a 32 year old prince.
We should sincerely hope the Saudi mullahs, clans and tribes are not merely marking time, sharpening their scimitars for a future time of reckoning with M.B.S. and his overhaul of Saudi society (and the Wahhabi clerics).
It would be a shame if he ends up as other leaders have, including JFK, MLK, RFK, and Anwar Sadat, when they advocated for social change. The young prince will need the loyalty of his bodyguards and security agents, as well as the support of the Saudi population.
1
Although somewhat skeptical about this transformation, it is quite logical. One doesn't have to have a crystal ball to see that oil will become a thing of the past. Saudi Arabia can either find a path to the 21st century or stick it's head in the sand and join Syria, Iraq, and Afghanistan on the landfill of failed countries that have no plan for the future. What is most interesting is his praise for Trump. While Saudi Arabia seems to looking toward the future, Trump wants the US to look to the past. Saudi Arabia opening up and becoming more "western". The US becoming less so. And rooting out corruption. I wonder if that will include corruption on all sides or just those individuals from the opposing party like Trump is trying to do? Wonder if there are any leaders in Saudi Arabia who engage in sexual abuse and call it . locker room behavior? And what the Crown Prince would say about that?
88
In 100 years, oil will be a raw material, not a fuel.
We have a long time and a long way to go to get there. We'll all be gone before then.
Long before then, the Saudis will run out of oil and we'll be getting it in places where it is much more expensive to reach it.
Meanwhile, the Saudis can either do something constructive with all their oil money, or they can wait a few decades to eat sand.
Thanks for several insights I hadn’t seen about the mass arrests of the elites and MBS’ motivations. You can’t cover it all, but my experience in KSA makes me think a huge obstacle to overcome will be motivating working age Saudis to get off their generous welfare system and do real work that ex-pats do now. This will take years, and patience. So important for the west to support this prince.
4
They can't do what the expats do now. They don't have the education or experience. They're trapped, by their own past.
3
Alas, without reconciliation between Muslim Sunnis and Muslim Shiites, there will be no Arab Spring in the region. Much like the 100+ years of wars between the Protestants and Catholics in Europe, hope for a one-sided deal to solve this problem is impossible.
And recent actions by M.B.S. against another Gulf state, where America has stationed its fleet for years, points out that there is no true reconciliation in his heart or in his future.
So, M.B.S. will have a hard time from the Sunni fundamentalists, who consider him a sort of infidel, and without their backing, Ssudi life will be just as hard internally as externally to find the road to change.
7
M.B.S. overthrowing conventions. Will he stop now? That is out of character.
Will he later reach out to Iran? Any outreach at all would be an overthrow of a longstanding convention, and not doing that would be the only conventional approach. Which is more like M.B.S.?
I wish the Crown Prince, and Saudi Arabia well, and hope he succeeds, but he has much going against him. Saudi Arabia's population has grown too large too fast solely due to oil. Its people are spoiled, they have a high cost lifestyle needing air conditioning, desalinated water, and imported food. Their religious and social extremes are not the most conducive for encouraging international corporations to set up operations there.
As their oil extraction eventually decreases ( oil is finite), and if oil prices do not increase, they may find that even the most enlightened government in the world cannot save them.
6
Tom Friedman's interview with Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman (MBS) aims to portray a top-down "revolution" in Saudi Arabia - fighting rampant corruption and returning to the pre-1979 moderate Islam, while modernising the ultra-conservative Kingdom and restructuring its economy.
I support his grand vision and wish him much luck. In the absence of a grassroots tradition, it has to happen from above. People, who are fed up with graft or rigid morality, are glad that their grievances are being addressed.
The purge of the "200" suspects - who are detained in the luxurious Ritz-Carlton - in the ongoing anti-corruption campaign could bring the state coffers $100 billion if they would give up part of their "ill-gotten" gains.
The biggest challenge MBS faces is to curb the Wahhabists' influence. He is seeking to replace Wahhabism with Saudi nationalism. Despite his anti-Iran fervour, he should learn from its history. The last autocratic ruler in the region who sought to bypass his country’s clergy and carry out his "White Revolution" was Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, who was eventually deposed in the 1979 revolution.
If MBS failed to bring back a moderate Islam, the Wahhabists would return to power and they would make Iran's mullahs look liberal. It looks as though Iran will be on top of his foreign policy agenda, in his quest for regional hegemony. The problem is that, he is young, ambitious, impulsive and too powerful. He may not listen to advice and make huge mistakes.
8
Just forget about the Yemenis who have been killed by indiscriminate bombing and the humanitarian disaster about to happen in Yemen. What a vision of modernization! Such a mouthpiece that only the NYT could provide!
1
If this is the real Arab Spring, then President Xi is heralding the China Spring?
Semi jesting aside, people should reserve judgment. The real proof in the pudding is if MBS starts arresting the wahhabites. But thus far, aiming its weapons against Iran seems more to appease them
9
But he did, at least the extreme ones that aspire to dictate their ways on the normal population
1
The prince will have to assure Shiites that they are tolerated both in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere in the Sunni Muslim world, so that they do not need Iran to act as their defender. If the conflict between Iran and Saudi Arabia is robbed of its religious dimension, it becomes amenable to being transformed into a regional rivalry that could, as many regional rivalries are, be a peaceful and healthy competition.
11
You posit all Arabs against the Persians. It could as well be all Muslims together against those who denigrate all Muslims.
The Shiite majority in Iraq is Arab. There are Shiite minorities in many Arab countries, including Saudi Arabia. If the Sunnis accepted and tolerated the Shiites, the Shiites would no longer need to look to Iran for protection or support, but rather for fellowship.
2
A novel top-down Arab Spring in Saudi Arabia and Tom Friedman, of course, is very excited about it. Is that for real?
Historical evidence has shown any rigid political-social structure --such as the existing one in Saudi Arabia -- cannot be changed easily.
At the beginning, Arab Spring revolutions begin relatively calm but soon are followed by a Pandora box of social/political instability difficult to manage or to reverse.
If history serves as a guideline, political/social changes in the Middle East never comes easy or without bloodshed. As far as the region is concerned, the pessimists are always right.
17
Way, way too early to make any kind of judgement. Check back around 20 years from now and let's see if this is for real.
9
It's not the top-down reforms being pushed by the Saudi Crown Prince Salman to consolidate his own power for the future, or his selfprofessing claims to be the symbol of the Saudi youth aspirations that the Saudi society is actually looking for. Instead, what the aspirational youth of Saudi Arabia is really yearning for is a bit liberalisation and an enabling environment in which they could realise their dreams for the future without the diktats of state and the clergy. Nor, for sure, the Saudis would ever prefer any destabilising power games being waged by the Saudi regime to gain geopolitical dominance in the region, as this might shatter their aspirational dreams.
7
Even though you don't seem to me to be a Saudi youth, I agree with you!
1
Thanks for the insight. I truly hope that this prince is successful. Change must come from within in order for it to be lasting.
These young people are demonstrating what can and should be accomplished here as well. I hope to see something similar happen here as the millennials come into their own.
30
Yeah, but how was the lamb?
That will only be if your educational system is reformed to place highly skilled teachers in schools at all levels, and if your Christian religious fundamentalists don't continue demanding books be banned or science instruction be curtailed because it offends them as it is "ungodly." No education like in other Western nations, no hope for the new generation.
I found this a solid and thought provoking article. I have been quite cynical of the arrests and claims of “fighting corruption “ as just a power grab. I think Mr. Friedman makes a good case that there is a progressive undercurrent in the regime, which hopefully will help stabilize and slightly liberalize Saudi Arabia. He also questions the current struggle between Saudi Arabia and Iran, which does seem to me a weak point in both the Saudi and Iranian plans. How it all works out remains to be seen.
18
No one can deny the Iranian ambitions to spread its devistating ideology and influence over the Islamic world. If the Iranians cannot stop the Mullas, outsiders will. Unfortunately, the main obstacle in my opinion is Israel and its puppet, the USA.
Just a money grab my friend. Islam is too divided for modernization or moderation.
Having spent ten years working in the Kingdom (1992-96 and 2009-2015), I root for this guy too, big time. I've worked in many other countries too, from Japan to Equatorial Guinea, and Saudi Arabia has since 1979 always been the expats' most hated country to live in. No longer, we hope! M.B.S. is looking like the Saudi Atatürk.
30
Not to seem peevish, Mr. Friedman, but as a journalist did you request access to those princes and businessmen "imprisoned" at the Ritz-Carlton to, obviously, get their perspectives? Also, was there any discussion during your long interview with M.S.B. as to how he intends to diversify the oil-centric Saudi economy, which many experts say is vital to its survival?
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I think their perspective can easily be gleamed from the situation they have put themselves in. If one is not clean, one should expect to be put on the spot sooner or later.
I think Saudi Arabia's future, with its massive deserts, will be just fine as solar energy becomes the main prrpetual source of energy, once again.
Khalid, we have a fundamental principle in the U.S., as do other Western democracies, that the accused shall have the legal right to a "presumption of innocence" until guilt is established "beyond a reasonable doubt" by the prosecution in a court of law, with the charging authorities also duly restrained by many procedural and substantive rules applying in a criminal case. The pursuit of criminal justice is not totally controlled by the unequal, powerful charging machinery of the State equipped with a reverse "guilty until proven innocent" standard, upon which authoritarian, undemocratic regimes rule. If you find yourself in the U.S., I would suggest that you walk over to the nearest state or federal courthouse for an informative and enlightening experience there, based upon your expressed comments.
As to your second point, solar energy is obviously a priority that Saudi Arabia should pursue with great vigor to provide domestic power to the expanding needs of the nation. I'm unaware, however, of any present technology that can capture, store, and export that energy to replace your present-day overwhelming dependency on those huge oil tankers plying the world's oceans. Thank you.
Given the actions of Saudi security people as well as surrogates over the years, everywhere in the world, one would hope that MBS’s bodyguards are very good, sufficiently numerous and utterly faithful. Because if they’re not all of those things, then I think I see the Crown Prince going over the hill, with Abraham, Martin and John. We need to remember how Indira Gandhi got hers – by an extremist Sikh member of her security detail.
This is a very delicate moment in time for Saudi Arabia, where everything hinges on the success of one man in a cauldron in which opposed and ruthless interests vie not merely any longer for additional power, but for survival. And the Crown Prince’s adversaries can afford to be wrong many times ... while he can’t afford to be wrong even once.
The best of luck to him, because a generation hence, when the contest between Saudi Arabia and Iran is materially decided, it’s only his victory that could mean a stabilized Islamic world at relative peace with its neighbors and the world.
But to get there he needs to keep breathing in and out.
53
Richard, Crown prince Mohammed bin Salman isn’t alone in his mission. Trust me, as a saudi citizen, we got bored of radicalism that has nothing with our right religion. It doesn’t make sense anymore for us. By M.B. S , we’ve been mentally advised to think and be be open-mind to the others. The country is currently changing to restore our beautiful nation. Thank you Ritchard to comment positively because that gives us hope and makes us feeling much stronger.
2
The cynio in me says this Iran rhetoric is a lead up to invasion in order to get oil prices to rise. The optimist in me hopes this is the beginning of a long overdue reformation of Islam.
Iran has many moderates too!
35
Hamilton? Really?
This reminds me of the time Mr. Friedman thought invading Iraq to bring democracy to the Middle East was a good idea.
606
I doubted it would happen as well, but there would have been a better chance of it had not the whole post-invasion operation been so badly bungled.
Yes indeed, one will never forget that. Hard to give him much credibility but there was much support for the war across the US media and the general public.
Friedman can't help but advance what seems to be helpful for Israel.
It's strange why he doesn't think the Arab Peace Initiative is much more productive.
Refreshing! Good news when we really need it.
8
Please don't take this anti-corruption nonsense seriously.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-prince-mohamme...
The man paid $500 million for a yacht. I'm sure this came from his salary.
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Mahmoud Ahmedinejad won the Iranian presidency partly because his opponent's house was too expensive. Maybe personal wealth or even hypocrisy shouldn't always be a deal breaker. A bloodthirsty tyrant can be an ascetic as easily as a hedonist.
I️ can’t help but feel that you walked into the conversation not looking to challenge him. You talk about finding nothing but support for him, in a country that just whisked away hundreds of people into detention. Saudi Arabia is not exactly a place where speaking your mind is encouraged, let alone to an NYT columnist of your stature. You gloss over the fact that this bastion of eliminating waste....has just bought a $300 million yacht. He may be trying some interesting things, but rooting for the reforms of a man that’s using pure authoritarian tactics to ben the country to his will seems odd to me
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It could happen. Remember, it was the autocratic leader of the U.A.E. that has lifted that country and made it in a relatively short period one of the most sought-after place to work and live. If M.B.S. has his heart in the right place, it could happen. Let's hope so. Islam needs modernity. Saudi Arabia needs sweeping changes. The previous staid pace of change was not good for anyone in the region - or the world.
Would you challenge him ? Look what he does to his enemies.
Agree and it shows. Not worthy of NYT standards
1
His visions are to end extremism and bring Saudi Arabia back into a modern society that tolerates all religions and gives women more freedom to express themselves and live happier lives. Unfortunately for anyone who opposes his movement, they will suffer consequences that are to say the least, inhumane. MBS is a totalitarian.
27
Unfortunately, this is the only proven method to successfully move forward.
It's a minor annoyance with great benefits for all. Consensus should never always be an aim.
5
"...bring Saudi Arabia back into a modern society"? When was it ever "modern"?
....and about that Russian yacht from your last column that he shelled out $550 million for on an impulse whim? Where did that come from?
And Iran's leader as "Hitler"? Really? it seems M.B.S. is doing an admirable impression now with what's transpiring in Yemen with the man-made famine.
Unless the demonizing of the Shia communities ends, there will be no tolerant return to Islam in Saudis Arabia.
And of course he doesn't want to talk about the recent Lebanese fiasco that he ginned up. It's an embarrassment on so many levels.
Yes, we do have a 32 year trying to be in charge, that is painfully evident. Combine this with Trump who has given the greenlight for God knows what, should be very scary for both the region, and the rest of the World.
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Now, come on—
Isn't Israel, and its attempt to leverage Saudi power and influence, the subtext of Mr. Friedman's gracious interaction with the next King of Saudi Arabia?
[You can also dress it up as modernizing the "kingdom" and reform and "restoring" and all that.]
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That's a coincidence, yesterday NYT asked Yemen’s War Is a Tragedy. Is It Also a Crime? https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/22/world/middleeast/yemen-crimes-against...
Is bombing hospitals a terrorist act if it happens in Europe or here but not there?
Friedman's happy MBS is trying to stabilize and enrich his country, isn't that what dictators do? A more important question is do we oppose terrorist acts?
Friedman might argue we should not oppose terrorism because our actions only make it worse, an endless war. But why should we support it?
48
Let me know when MBS settles for a constitutional monarchy.
46
Arab spring is code word for coup. All the pretty words in the world won't change it. Problem is, these springs haven't worked out too well in other countries. And Saudi Arabia will attempt to form a caliphate. They will probably start with Libya and Egypt because the US has those under control. The already have an alliance with most of the Arabian peninsula. And since those folks aren't reading with The Prince or The Republic, and in general are politically poorly educated.... Then they'll go against Lebanon so that Cheney/Rothchild's oil companies can develop the oil lands they plan to steal. Then back to Syria and an attempt at Iran. There will be an inexplicable upward swing in terrorism in most of the "-stans". And more attempts to tax Russian oil through pipeline sequestration. Energy costs in Europe will increase and the Saudi - USA-Israeli governments will attempt to isolate Africa from the Russians and Chinese so they can be exploited more efficiently. I'm not going to make bets on what happens with South America after that.
19
laughingstock
I find repulsive the harm the Saudi royal family has selfishly inflicted on not only Islam but on the Western world.
I admire Tom Friedman for his insightful elegance on matters political, especially regarding the Middle East - and am bursting to join him in his enthusiasm - but I am struggling to do that.
Transformational leadership succeeds only when someone has their back to the wall. The Saudis do not. Their wealth has created a society where the definition of working hard is a far cry from anything an average citizen of the world lives every day. Expats - educated and destitute - do all the work. Saudis sit in gilded hotels and drink coffee. MBS's anti corruption drive nor his reforms will not change this culture.
The Wahhabis have exported their anachronistic - and anarchistic - brand of Islam to the world. And they have done that more successfully than Iran's Shia Ayatollahs. Who is going to reform the thousands of brainwashed Pakistani and Uzbek kids who are products of tens of thousand of Wahhabi funded Madrasses to follow a more moderate Islam? Who is going to lead the ISIS inspired Islamic youth around the world to a better place?
Moral leadership has to be followed up with intellectual leadership. Saudis do not have it and are not capable of providing it.
MBS has to use his trillions for a more expansive domestic global transformation so that history will not hold his children accountable for the harm they have inflicted on Islam and the world.
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With the tragic suffering imposed by bombing and blockade of Yemen imposed by Saudi Arabia with major US support, we hear Friedman's applause for Saudi women being freed to drive cars. This sweet story reminds me of mid-Vietnam war, when light-at-the-end-of-the-tunnel and little-red-schoolhouse op-eds tried to dissuade us of its hopelessness, while the bombs and napalm and cover-up intensified. Trump's visit to Saudi Arabia made all too clear our ignorant complicity.
3
Excellent comment that speaks the truth. Let's take it further. MBS calls Khamenei the "Hitler of the Middle East" - but what will he do to ameliorate the Sunni-Shi'a divide in Islam that is completely stifling progress and harmony in the region? How will he, and Saudi Arabia, find a way to reach out to their own repressed Shi'as, and the Shi'as of Lebanon and Yemen, Iraq and Syria who rely on their co-religionist forces for protection from the Sunni majorities who call them apostates? And finally, how will the arabs of Saudi and the Gulf learn to live productively with the 80 million Persians of Iran, who are never going to leave their neighborhood? Let Friedman ask MBS these basic questions, and further tell MBS that his clerics should heed the history of reconciliation across the divides in Christianity.
This quote from Michael regarding Tom Friedman, "Insightful elegance of on matters political...regarding the Middle East! The lead up to the US invasion of Iraq in 2004 was supported by TF. Before that, I too, thought he was insightful with his honied words, but what I came to realize is that Tom represents US policy & interests in the Middle East. The resulting destruction since the Iraq invasion, occupation belies any evidence of insight then or now. The new Prince Leader bin Salman is another corrupt Arab leader. The superficial appearance of change, including allowing women to drive in the future is a cover. Saudi Arabia has been armed by the US and now in the process of genocide of people belonging to one of the poorest countries in the Middle East. One of the worst humanitarian crisis of our time. The real story is that the Saudi's and Israel are aligned, both armed to the teeth by the US and both more brutal than Iran.
2
It’s hilarious for Friedman to characterize Iran’s dominant influence in Damascus, Baghdad and Beirut as a case of “overreach”, all the while downplaying Saudi Arabia’s own blatant overreaching.
The criminal war waged by the 32-year old M.B.S. in Yemen, the failed boycott of Qatar, the brutal shakedown being waged on his fellow princes and billionaires, the grand plans to destabilize Syria and Lebanon (which have come to nothing), openly conspiring with Israel against Iran, the farcical game being played out with Hariri – “overreach”, much?
The real reason Iran has so much influence nowadays in Beirut and Baghdad – Friedman calls it “control” – has much more to do with the actions of Israel and the US than any “dysfunction and rivalries within the Sunni Arab world”.
Hezbollah, close ally of Iran and dominant party within Lebanon, was born out of the resistance to Israel’s invasion in 1982 and subsequent occupation of southern Lebanon which lasted until 2000.
Iran wields such influence in Iraq today only because the United States stupidly destabilized Iraq with its catastrophic invasion in 2003 which enabled the Shiites to come to power.
560
Yes, yes.
And Friedman's subtext, as usual, is ISRAEL and its attempt to leverage Saudi power and influence.
[Although the word "Israel" does not appear in his article, not even once.]
3
Yes, absolutely correct.
M.B.S. seems to be killing a lot of Shias in Yemen and, by proxy terrorists, in Syria.
It seems that our Mr. Friedman, who got Iraq 100% wrong, is now getting KSArabia 100% wrong.
3
Sure, Israel is always at fault for people like you, huh?
Islamism is a trend that won't go away. Religion can easily become decisive in Politics. The Saudis unleashed Religious fanaticism, later, others introduced suicide bombings. These things aren't going back in the box no matter how much money you throw at them.
15
Iran is the regional power house in that part of the world, Nice try Friedman, Iran has the largest Jewish population outside of Israel in the Middle East. Take away the costumes they wear (special events) and they are nothing .
Saudia Arabia has a poor reputation with a very large chunk of Americans.
Iran would crush this regime , time to back Iran , and bring them in our sphere of influence.
58
First thanks Mr. Friedman for this great article.
HRH true leadership took Saudi Arabia to another dimension. A bright future is waiting for us Saudi’s ahead & it’s all thanks to MBS’s ambitious vision towards the future.
HRH established many projects that will take Saudi Arabia to a completely new level in many aspects. Projects worth mentioning: Saudi Vision 2030, Neom and the Red sea project.
MBS made crucial decisions regarding Moderate Islam and Extremist. Moderate Islam is open to all religions and to the world. This ideology will help in changing people’s thinking/view to help in accepting the development of making a better Saudi Arabia
I cannot forget his statement at landmark conference “We will not waste 30 years of our lives dealing with extremist ideas; we will destroy them today. This reflected very positively on the world & our society. This statement made the world knows the Kingdom’s strong attitude and would do more to tackle Extremist & Extremism. MBS is the change we seek for and fully support.
13
I see I bright and safe future every time he speakes
where I come from, this is called a "paid talk back".
And if you didnt applaud this despot MBS threatening the lives of millions of Yemenis while stealing billions for himself, where would you find yourself in Riyadh? Hint- it would be a jail not as luxurious as the Ritz to the disappointment of Mr. Friedman, but the torture would be quite comparable
2
MBS is quoted as saying that " he praised President Trump" as “the right person at the right time”
No sir, both of you are what the US and Saudia Arabia needs in these times.
5
Based only on his behavior, it appears laughable that MBS is being truthful about his effort to purge Saudi Arabia country of top-level crime. He is part of that top level, and arresting or weakening all possible challenges to his
control is simply a much nicer, less deadly version of what KimJongUn has been doing.
However, his efforts to bring moderation to religious and social restrictions can only be a good thing.
I am optimistic that loosening things up a bit will allow change to take hold.
11
During Mr. Friedman's career a lot of his wishes have not come true including the election of Donald Trump. I recall how much he wished for a different outcome. The same is true with regards to M.B.S. If he is serious about the tolerant society he wants to create in the world and is interested in pulling his trademark Wahhabism, the madrasas are a good place to begin with. And he has not touched anywhere in the world. They are teaching the same extremist ideology which gave us Bin Laden, Taliban, 9-11 hijackers, Boko Haram, Al Shabab, ISIS, and ASWJ.
M.B.S. sold you a bill of goods and you bought it hook line and sinker. A lot better rebuke of what was sold to you was expected with a man of your understanding of foreign affairs. This man is responsible for the ultimate catastrophe in the poorest of Arab countries, Yemen. According to UN reports millions of women and children are at the brink of starvation; how can you buy the figures that were thrown at you about the control of Yemen and the indigenous people Houthis?
Yes Trump administration like the Obama Administration is complicit in the deaths of innocent civilians in Yemen due to our support of MBS's genocidal policies of indiscriminate bombing of Yemen.
It is pure and simple power grab by him and nothing to do with stopping corruption at the highest level. Where is Prince Bander, the main agent for Lockheed, Boeing, MacDonald Douglas, and other defense companies of US?
I hope you got a good fee for this effort.
190
stop it Friedman. You were spectacularly wrong about the Iraq war leading to democracy in the Arab world. your optimism here is no more justified. a popular revolution does not start with the king telling the people what to do. it happens when the people start telling the king what to do.
860
History does not support your view. Most of the revolutions from below led not to democracy but to the opposite, whether one thinks of the French revolution, the Russian/Soviet Revolution, the Cuban revolution, or the Iranian Islamist revolution, etc., etc. I have doubts about the sincerity of MBS, but if he is sincere chances his for success are much higher than they were for the Arab spring revolutions from below. I am with Friedman: let's hope that he is sincere and succeeds, it would make the world (not to mention Saudi Arabia) a better place.
5
Their oil is running out and they know it, so they are trying to get a handle on all the assets they can before they don't have the nest egg of black gold.
13
The choice of Tom Friedman to endorse and reassure America is a wise move on the part of Mohmmed bin Salman or whoever is advising him. But, the New York Times does not have the best track record in parsing the Middle East or knowing which way the wind is blowing.
If the competition in the Middle East turns to fighting corruption and increasing equality and freedoms from the bottom up and the top down, that would be a good thing. War and violence against civilian populations is not necessarily the best path to that freedom. Spending billions on weapons systems seems to always end in those weapons getting used. So I am skeptical.
"His general view seemed to be that with the backing of the Trump administration — he praised President Trump as “the right person at the right time” — the Saudis and their Arab allies were slowly building a coalition to stand up to Iran." Writes Friedman, adding, "I am skeptical." We agree on that one. I would add to that that a war between Iran and Saudi Arabia would be horrible for both nations, and Europe as well. But, a sudden cessation of hostilities would threaten deeply entrenched military interests and open the door to adventurism in the name of oil on both sides.
A gradual reduction and diminished role of clerics in Islamic societies generally would be constructive as would anything to get the Sunnis, Shiites, and all Islamic faiths to find more common grounds and less battle grounds.
26
I have just finished reading the article you wrote so please accept my thanks, while much has been written on this topic, I think as a Suadi I can at least say things being different — since MBS has changed the situation in Saudi Arabia. He has a dream and we believe in him.
The outcome during these years, we have a lot of projcts like, Neom (transnational city and economic zone. Also, the Red Sea project the new global tourist destination in saudi .
HRH Stated ''70% of Saudi population are youth and they are ambitious and I am the least ambitious of them''.
27
He is our bright future
This is the same prince who bought a $585 million yacht on a whim while vacationing in the Mediterranean, from a Russian oligarch. The anti-corruption move is simply a way to grab power and money. The author’s views are totally tainted by the access to the insides granted to him.
369
Spot on
This is something to be thankful for this Thanksgiving. It is always nice to see people in power try to do the right things. The privilege of power should be used for the betterment of your community, your country, your world. With these reforms, particularly the focus on the rule of law and tossing religious extremism, the Saudi leaders may finally become worthy of their people.
Now if we could just do the same...
5
This is just a fantasy. Saudi Arabia is not going to change significantly just because of one man, even if he is a king. Wahhabi Islam is deeply entrenched in Saudi culture and the Saudis have successfully exported this brand of radical Islam worldwide. Turning Saudi Arabia to a " more moderate Islam" is a pipe dream. Prince Mohammed quotes 1979 as the year when Saudi radicalization was born (the year of Iranian revolution) as if the country had been an island of tolerance, moderation and liberal Islam earlier but Wahhabism originated in the 18th-century Arabia, it did not start in the year 1979. Wahhabism has flourished very well across the globe. King Mohamed Bin Salmon cannot stop this movement. An an earlier article in NY Times dated November 10, 2017 by Madawi- al Rasheed is worth reading. This is a quote from that article. "If he is serious about getting the country to embrace moderate Islam, he must allow Saudi clerics and thinkers of different denominations to debate foundational Islamic texts and norms in an open environment." " his statements about moderate Islam seem to be a public relations exercise aimed at global investors."
46
Great article concerning the most significant strategic initiative regarding the War on Terror occurring in the world today.
2
Curious as to how wealthy MBS is?
Good for Saudi Arabia but I'd still much rather live in Tehran than Riyadh.
33
I’ve always had enormous respect for Tom Friedman’s insightful observation and analysis of the Middle East. This initial read-out of his unusual conversation with MBS is revealing and highly useful, especially because Saudi Arabia is always so opaque, politically. It seems MBS is taking advantage of the U.S. government’s current paralysis and inward focus, to assume the U.S. will stay out of MBS’s way.
Let’s see if MBS assists in any meaningful way in resolving long-running Middle East regional challenges, and whether MBS’s vision for Saudi Arabia (especially for moderating his country’s radical interpretation of Islam) contributes positively to the Arab world’s economic and social development.
A fascinating start. Thanks for the glimpse into MBS’s vision.
4
Friedman is gullible enough to believe that corruption can be eliminated without rule of law and transparency. Prince Salman has collected dossiers and 95% of the people accused pay the fines requested -- what does this tell you about the alternatives they have?
67
"Friedman is gullible enough to believe that corruption can be eliminated without rule of law and transparency."
Not gullible at all. He is a billionaire himself, and he is in on the game.
1
Now, if the will only stop the blockade of Qatar....
11
There are no perfect leaders. Saudi Arabia is not a democracy, and there’s no guarantee that democracy will lead to better governance. You need institutions that are respected and laws that are fair and enforced. Good governance succeeds when rights of minorities are protected. If MBS protects people’s right and treat everyone equally, so be it. Better that than Syria.
An election doesn’t guarantee legitimate governments; just the opposite. In most cases it legalizes persecution of minorities, even in western societies with well established institutions. If anyone has any doubt, just look at our own government going after African-Americans, Hispanics, Muslims, LGBT, and others.
3
I wish MbS the best of success but history shows that such despotic government never ever reform from within.
Reminds me when Bashar al-Assad came to power in Syria. British educated president full of reform ideas . Turned out to be worst then his father...
12
This is MBS propaganda delivered through Mr. Friedman. I'll evaluate the new Saudi monarchs based on their actions, not their marketing. So far it's the usual tale of a once wealthy monarchy that woke up to discover it is losing its influence. The terrorist groups it sponsored, in Iraq and Syria, have lost to Iran backed govts and Shiite militias. The world is quickly moving to alternate energy sources so they can free themselves from oil.
If MBS truly wants to usher a new era, he would renounce terrorism, sure for peace with the Shiite populations in the middle East, stop his war against the poor of Yemen etc.
The world is watching. Speak through actions, not through message pigeons.
429
You must also consider that many who are congratulating MBS on this post have never posted before, except a very few. This smells of an orchestrated PR campaign with a comment factory running out of the third world.
30
DeepAnalyst:
You say, "..many who are congratulating MBS on this post have never posted before, except a very few."
What is your basis for saying this? Is just an observation or do you have statistics to back it up?
I'm not disputing what you are saying at all. In fact, I find it interesting. I am just curious if there is a quantitative basis.
1
Funny, but I thought a similar campaign was afoot to discredit MBS!
So the Saudi crown prince is going after corruption, is he? He has presumably detained some family members in this quest, but how about the vast, vast sums they all, including his immediate family, spend on lavish living? If this is not corruption, it is most certainly anti-Islamic. I lived in Saudi Arabia some years ago. One of my students told me that it would take generations for change to come to the kingdom. I suppose so. The author presumes the prince's agenda may initiate change to the doctrines and practices of Islam, but it is a people's thinking and mindset that must first change; this can be brought about through access to liberal education, travel abroad, openness to diversity and free thinking. The prince's charge of corruption is a a subterfuge for what truly ails his country: autocracy, religious dogmatism, lack of self-discipline and get-up-and-go, gross materialism and patriarchy toward women. The director of the university program told me most cavalierly that Saudis did not want Western culture; no, they simply wanted Western and Asian manufactured products. They have these in abundance, but what else of merit?
18
Wow! No mention of yesterday's Daily Mail's story on "torture" of the Saudi corruption detainees and involvement in said torture and abuse by US contractors. Also no mention of 13 students sentenced to death by beheading for advocating democracy. What has happened to those kids? Subtext of all this Friedman happy talk appears to be upcoming conflict with Iran and positioning Saudi Arabia as the "good guy" in that conflict so as to get support of those who pay attention to these sorts of things in the US. Looks like we are gearing up for Iraq II and the old gang is dusting off the pom poms.
329
"Let's all gang up on Iran" is a Leitmotif being played about as profligately and tiresomely as Christmas carols in the local mall.
One question for Mr. Friedman: Without Hezbollah, just what will stop the IDF from rolling back into South Lebanon?
While agreed that Saudi royals have long treated the Treasury as the family piggy bank and cleaning up corruption is long overdue:
MBS comes before the world with blood stained hands.
His bombing Yemen yielding tens of thousands of civilian casualties and a cholera epidemic merit him a cell next to Mladic.
93
Very proud of this intelligent crown prince who is trying to lead Saudi Arabia to its greatness again by fighting corruption and making the right choices ..
It is worth to mention that his plans to fight terrorism and extremist ideology is working really good and he made the world center for combat terrorism in Riyadh.
The war in Yemen is understood wrong by many people! We are supporting legitimacy in Yemen and fighting Houthi who is destroying Yemen and stealing the Saudi Aid for helping Yemeni citizens.
We all support Prince Mohammed bin Salman and thank you for writing this article.
35
Helping Yemenis by bombing them and starving them? Don't think they'll be a Yemen left for the Saudi puppet to govern.
3
The charitable view is you are the victim of your own country's propaganda. The true situation in Yemen is the precise opposite of what you say: the Houthi, whatever their limitations, were welcomed by the rest of Yemen as the only honest force for change, attempting to replace the utterly corrupt and incompetent Saudi-backed regime.
3
Hothis steal aid provided from Saudi Arabia and crying for famine.
What can Saudi Arabia do more than that!!??
I respect Friedman's thoughts & writings (have since he was writing from Beirut) but he might want to review some of his post 2001 missives as he muses on how a totalitarian theocracy can enforce tolerance, effectively (the 'effectively' is sarcasm)
more than 200 years ago USA struggled (mightily, if I'd been at T-day dinner would have mouthed 'bigley') with tolerance (1st amendment 'entitlement' clause) & we've seen how well that's worked out. . . pretty well on some levels but the most repressive SCOTUS operatives proclaim, the loudest, that they are 'Originalist' &/or 'Textualists' & continue to constrain extending rights granted seamlessly at birth to 'majority' demographics yet still denied to minorities
then in regard to Saudi Arabia there's that little Yemen thing
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Tom I respect your perspective and love your writing.
However, you need to visit Yemen - if you can - and Lebanon, and the most civilized, educated and polished Muslim nation that there has been for a few centuries now - Iran - as a follow up to this Thanksgiving Day piece.
I expect nothing but the best from you. Hence this request and remark.
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Yes, indeed. It is becoming more and more clear that the Iranians are the only decent adults in the Middle East.
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Arab Spring? perhaps not. Just another monarch with great ambitions and a nationalist agenda. We should wait and see if it results in just another revolution, sigh
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Well, I for one would rather that M.B.S. take on the male guardianship issue before he decides to shake out the pockets of Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal. You can call it "anti-corruption" - but since people were arrested, sentenced, and penalized without due process - it hardly looks like reform. When I read that Saudi Arabia is no longer funding Wahhabi mosques throughout Europe (see NY Times story on Kosovo), Saudi citizens are no longer funding ISIS, male guardianship has been abolished, and being LGBTQ no longer get you the death penalty - then and only then will I be optimistic.
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What the Wahhabi sect did in Kosovo to change the structure of Islam there was terrible and did not help Kosovo to recover. Kosovo's (and Bosnia's) mosques were not the right design for Wahhabism (men and women able to be in proximity!). How will he undo that damage to the Muslims of the former Yugoslavia?
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This column, though with good intentions, has the strong smell of a timely PR campaign by M.B.S. And Thomas Friedman agreed to this in return for access to M.B.S.
However proof of pudding is in the eating, next couple of will be crucial. Let's see if the reforms have staying power or not.
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Time to take off the rose colored glasses. How many times have we seen promising up and coming leaders like MBS, who then turn out to become brutal tyrants. And it is clear that MBS is capable of brutality. Look no farther than Yemen.
It is interesting that this article comes out on the same week that Robert Mugabe is removed from office. I fear that Saudi Arabia will have its Mugabe moment with MBS twenty years from now.
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I fail to see how things are different now than in the years before 1979.
The Shah's collusion with Israel's war on Palestinians favored the Iranian revolution in the eyes of most Arabs. Saudi collusion with Israel now favors Hezbollah and Iran.
Inequality and corruption in Egypt under military dictatorship, colluding with Israel, precipitated Islamists' rise and their fighting Russia in Afghanistan. Egypt is still under military dictatorship with inequality worse than before, and Russia has invaded Syria.
The occupation of the Prophet's Mosque in 1979 followed years of corruption and failure by the Saud regime to hold Israel and their ally the United States accountable for promises of Palestinian self-rule and statehood. That corruption came from weakness in the Saud franchise after the assassination of King Faisal, who was tough on corruption and tough on the West's support for Israel's war on Palestinians.
Mr. MBS is in the crosshairs of the same forces as King Faisal was, and faces in my opinion the same dangers: if he's not firm with Israel, he will face stern opposition at home and abroad, and if he is, then he faces assassination or a coup.
Israel wants nothing short of a compliant Saudi regime: since most Arabs are critical of Israel, a weak Arab center in Arabia and Egypt must continue to hold. For that, repression and corruption must continue.
It all circles back to Israel's war on Palestinians and theft of their lands and rights, with no resolution in sight.
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While there will always be skeptics that say MBS just wants to secure his power, as long as he knows he is making reforms for the right reasons, he needs to block out the negative voices. Any reformer that wants to get rid of extremism is probably on the right track.
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Well, all I can say is "Good luck to M.B.S." I wish him well, because a more moderate, modern, successful Saudi Arabia would be a very good thing.
One thing he's doing indicates intelligence far above that in the United States: he's sending Saudi teachers to study what they're doing in Finland, which has the most successful national school system in the world.
Finland's school system assigns very little homework, has no standardized testing, doesn't allow charter or private schools, and is entirely based on equity. In other words it is the diametric opposite of the test-obsessed, charter-school-loving American system.
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The Finns have not been doing so well lately as far as school results. Also, total equality and gender-neutral education as in Finland is never going to fly in Arabia.
The only way for Arabia to truly prosper is to take out the "Saudi" part in the name, and in deed. The last half-century under the Al-Saud running affairs in the Arab World have been by far the worst in the Arabs' 2000-year history.
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The Saudi students will love Finns' propensity to drink. I have taught many Saudi students, both in their native land and at a Canadian university. Of five or six Saudi students, one will succeed, having the necessary intelligence, academic acumen, discipline and assiduity. The others will either fail or drop out. Saudi students still value their religious beliefs and practices over educational values and demands. Yes, they will skip out of class, skip tests and quizzes, discussions and whatnot, to go pray.
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Yassir Taima -
I don't know where you are getting your information, but according to Human Rights Advocate, Finland's education system was number one in the world as of May 5th of this year.
My reference to Finland's education system was not simply a nod to Saudi Arabia for wanting to emulate it, but a dig at the United States for doggedly pursuing educational policies that are clearly designed to benefit investors rather than students.
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Easily the best reason to give Thanks today.
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Tom Friedman's words are certainly reassuring. But to me, until Saudi Arabia, becomes a true democracy with free and fair elections, with freedom of speech and religion nothing substantial would have been achieved. What Friedman narrates in this column is baby steps.
M. B. S. praised President Trump as “the right person at the right time”, only because Trump condones dictatorships and places no value on human rights, which is still being flagrantly violated in Saudi Arabia.
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I don't know about Trump being "the right person at the right time" because with Trump the lights are out and no one is home. If this works out it would be wonderful but more accidental vis a vis Trump than a deliberate strategic move.
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So much about Saudi Arabia is very apparent in the USA, for example doctrinaire religion, the desire for an autocratic leader and the quest for materialism and richess. Thus, Trump and the Saudis like each other.
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Funny. We are in reverse trajectory.
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Good news. Best wishes Saudi Arabia. Thank you for the story Mr Friedman
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This is a fairly long article I thought would have accommodated even a passing mention of the MBS half a billion yacht and consequences of its purchase.
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My thoughts exactly. As much as I enjoy Mr. Friedman's essays l fear in this case he is either blinded by optimism or has been bamboozled by the young prince.
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Friedman talked about the yacht in previous columns. Let’s move on.
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Why would Friedman criticize the purchase of a yacht he has every intention of sailing on with family and friends?
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best way to get rid of the bad government, the French revolution was the best and most successful. never let the previous lot back in
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