Re: the concept that “...there may be a measure of hypocrisy in the blue states”,
I think the hypocrisy emanates from those leaders in the red states who preach “conservative” values but do not support policies that promote such (or in the case of some like Roy Moore, adhere to such), not from those in blue states who espouse the liberty and freedom to make value choices at a personal level and, in doing so, more often choose to support and do what the red states preach.
20
Looking county level teen pregnancies and pregnancy rates for NY state from the Dept. of Health for 2011 thru 2014 we see that the of the top counties for number of pregnancies 9 of 10 were Democratic in the 2016 election. This represents a bit two-thirds of all teen pregnancies in NY state. Of the 25 counties with the lowest number of pregnancies 96% were Republican in the 2016 election. Looking at rates the 25 counties with the lowest pregnancy rates were 76% Republican in the 2016 election.
If one wants to reduce the NY state pregnancy rate one needs to address the counties with the highest number of pregnancies.
4
When you follow the link Nicholas Kristof provides, and click on the survey’s data links you discover the Youth Risk Behavior Survey reveals differences in teenage sexual activity and teenage pregnancy rates among racial and ethnic groups, not difference between Republicans and Democrats. The sexual activity rate and teenage pregnancy rate are many times higher among black teenagers and Hispanic teenagers than among non-Hispanic white teenagers. As a result, states with the highest percentage of black and Hispanic teenagers compared to non-Hispanic white teenagers have higher rates of teenage sexual activity and teenage pregnancies. The teenagers most likely to be sexually active or pregnant belong to demographic groups that vote overwhelmingly Democratic. However, does it really make sense to correlate teenage sexual behavior to political or religious dogma rather than hormones?
8
Reading this column one wonders if Mr. Kristof is simply pretending to be as ignorant as he appears, or if he simply assumes his readers are stupid.
"States," be they red or blue, do not practice family or any other values. Values are practiced by the individuals who live in the states. And the overwhelming majority of those individuals are not sexually active high-school students. Indeed, sexually active high-school students tend not to be blue or red, seeing as how the vast majority of them are not old enough to vote.
5
Looking at the five states with the highest proportion of high schoolers having sex and the fives states with the lowest proportion of high schoolers having sex - it seems as if boredom might be a bigger drive than values. There just isn't as much for teenagers to do in Mississippi, Delaware, West Virginia, Alabama and Arkansas. This often leads to underage drinking and drugs and sex.
4
In the end the elites of these red states are responsible for their constituents. Red states preach and blue states live it generally. But of course that’s not good so the red state thieves can now take even more from the blue states ( bad people who are communist and immoral) who have educated their children and have health care.
God forbid you should take care of each other. That would run against your silly individualism.
7
Funny--Charles Murray got run off of Middlebury campus as a "racist" for making this argument, and making it long ago, more penetratingly, and damningly.
Murray drew the obvious question: If liberals live the way red-state conservatives preach, then why do they preach liberal values for everyone else?
5
Don't forget who cried, after an unlikely primary win, "I LOVE the poorly educated!" He knows what side of his bread has the butter on it: the stupid side. If they only knew how he has nothing but disdain for people like them.
14
I am off topic but I have to say that I love the south's politeness and good manners in general. I wish that New York City could import this trait and then it would be a wonderful place to live. Many of the residents here are rude and arrogant and their children are entitled spoiled brats. The south is a much more slower placed region which is welcoming after the constant hustle and bustle of city living. I love their using the yes mam and no mam expression. It is such sweet music to my ears.
Maybe I am just a southerner at heart. Does Texas count as I have visited and the place is one of my favorite destinations.
3
But by all means, let us blue-staters continue to send money to prop up these sanctimonious hypocrites who revile us for our "godless" ways, a process the GOP tax plan is designed to accelerate.
13
Lest anyone deem this to be an original idea, it is documented in Myron Magnet's magisterial and prescient book, "The Dream and the Nightmare," published in 1993: https://www.amazon.com/Dream-Nightmare-Sixties-Legacy-Underclass/dp/0688...
3
Once again, the reporter who thinks objectivity is not allowed and only Democrats should be praised shows us his utter ignorance. There is nothing more antithetical to "family values" than abortion, the murder of a child, and liberals worship at its altar.
Maybe Kristof should show us more facts than used books from biased sources.
2
So, people are hypocrites. Red people talk the talk, but don't walk the walk. Blue people don't talk the talk, but walk the walk. What a surprise.
Now, I imagine that very many red people lament the fact that they fail to get their young to be sensible. They may privately even deplore that e.g. their visceral embrace of the Second Amendment has led to such a prevalence of guns that anyone who feels a sudden urge to shoot someone or him- or herself can do so so easily (or that an untethered toddler can accidentally shoot his sister). Then again, I'd be curious to find out just how tolerant the blue regions are vis-a-vis e.g. interracial marriage.
The solution appears to be deceptively simple. A bit less hypocrisy. A bit more acknowledgement of true feelings and needs. The discovery of a vast common ground. The realization, even if unspoken, that the truth lies somewhere in between the extremes. And the political nous to grasp this and build a broad coalition that would actually govern in the interests of the vast majority.
Unfortunately, the way US democracy has been set up, as a contest that values the winner over all the losers this is unlikely to happen. More's the pity.
One WHOLLY unrelated question: Does anyone wonder what will happen during the Olympic Winter Games, held in February 2018, within easy missile range of North Korea?
"This underinvestment leaves red states poorer and less educated — and thus prone to a fraying of the social fabric."
That statement sounds reasonable- until one looks at "The poor and less educated" across a spectrum of time. Poor immigrants and Blacks after slavery were as poor as one could get. Their morality did not devolve into the hypocrisy we now see among Conservatives in Red States. Further more- how do we explain the ultra- affluent (rich) and their "wicked ways"- on display every news cycle? Certainly not based on underinvestment in education or financial destitution.
3
Thank you, once again Nicholas Kristof, for an excellent column. I always look forward to the information and opinions you provide us.
My perception is that Evangelists ignore much of the teachings of Jesus, regarding doing good onto others, and disregard that only those without sin (nobody) should be condemning others. Many Evangelists are hypocrites in love with capital punishment, and historically White Southern Evangelists were followers of the Anti-Christ, fond of murdering Black Southern Evangelists, burning Black Evangelists' churches, and burning Crosses on their neighbor's properties.
These same ignorant hypocrites are certainly more receptive to the Old Testament than the New Testament, but they don't understand the Old Testament at all.
Kristof is correct that the problem is poor education, but many of these fools think education is demonic and that ignorance is bliss. That is why they are in love with Anti-Christ types like Donald Trump and Roy Moore, while hating what they perceive as liberal do-gooders.
11
According to a poll I saw yesterday, 58% of Republicans believe colleges and universities have a negative effect on America. People who get their civic and religious views from hate radio and angry pulpits rather than from reading are less likely to read the Bible, the reason Protestants demanded education. They don't know Jesus' parable of the sheep and the goats. They believe the hungry, the homeless, the sick, refugees and immigrants are so because of their sins rather than their government and financial institutions.
7
Two thoughts:
1. Looking at the statistics in red states, you realize why the people there are convinced that the country is going to the dogs. Things really ARE pretty bad where they live, and sex outside of marriage really IS at the heart of many of their problems.
2. Comparing red state data with blue state statistics, and you quickly see why conservatism is a starved ideology. Faced with the problem of teen pregnancy, the blue states apply science and logic and come up with two solutions: access to affordable birth control and equating delayed childbearing with future success. The red states double down on the same strategies--prohibition, enforced by fear of a vengeful god--that have been failing for thousands of years.
"Family values" is a canard, anyway, invoked by conservative leaders to tar liberals as heartless, libido-driven dilettantes in order to discourage people from even listening to we have to say, and to feel better about their own less-than-perfect families.
What if we expropriated the family values label and defined family in ways that make red-state voters feel better about their non-traditional arrangements? So you got pregnant at 16, married at 17, and divorced at 20, and now you're living with a man. Are your kids clean and well fed? Do you enforce good manners and encourage them to do well in school? Is your man good to them? Does he support your child-rearing methods? Fantastic! A lot of time that's the best a liberal family can manage, too.
5
Sorry, but having lived in both, claiming that blue states live family values is nuts. If you've ever visited NYC and say Forth Worth, TX, you'd see the difference in people is night and day. Charity? In blue states is a check to a save the LGBT whale fund, in red states it's literally taking care of neighbors in need with food and time out of their day. Claiming stats that show affluent teens have kids later in life is hardly a definitive definition of what's in either of their hearts.
4
Yes! Liberals are doing family values better in part because they are doing other things better. Thinks like public education, social services (including contraception), public policy, and child care. More surprising is that liberals are also doing better on the traditional bread and butter Republican platform. The blue parts of the country are making more money per capita; growing their economies faster; starting more businesses; generating more federal revenue; and doing more and better trade with the world.
The Trump Republican skill set is limited to raising taxes on the working and middle classes, in order to give the richest Americans a giant tax cuts; taking Medicaid, Medicare and Social Security away from the working and middle classes, in order to give the richest Americans a giant tax cut; and, you know, the Trump white nationalist cult thing.
6
The problem is not so much that different states have different moral codes. The problem is that social conservatives have formed a devil's pact with corrupt plutocrats because neither of them can win on their own. The result is evil.
5
By now most NYT readers should be aware that facts do not matter. The Red States folks will continue to promote the family values they fail to uphold and live up to. The majority of born again Christians will continue to ignore most of what Jesus taught in favor of what their preacher tells them about who to hate.
This column covers nothing new and will result in no epiphany for any Red State conservatives. It does give us Blue folk an updated listing of facts that will be ignored by any Red State folk we urge to change.
6
In other words, there's greater individual freedom in red states, which sometimes results in people doing foolish things. Freedom always includes the right to do foolish things.
2
There’s a lot of upset conservatives on this piece who never try and rebut the topic of the article, they like their avatar in Chief DJT would rather deflect, minimize, or change the subject. There could be 10000 studies on this topic and they would continue to deny this, because their precious preconceived notions are too fragile.
One of conservatism’s hallmarks is being a control freak. I guess new/factual information challenges that and they get mad.
4
Underinvestment in education and social services perpeptuates red states and maintains a pool of citizens ripe for military service.
4
The biblical definition of "sin" is found ins the book of James 4:17. It's pretty simple and we all do it. The definition is simply if you know the right thing to do and you don't do it, to him/her it is sin. in:https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+4%3A17&version=NASB
I'm not sure these statistics are helpful. For example, only about 1/3 of Mississippi is evangelical. Perhaps it is the other 2/3 that are doing all of these non-evangelical-seeming things. Perhaps not. We don't know. This article doesn't tell us.
5
Interesting. As a psychologist I think about internalized and 'embodied' values, versus values that are external and rule bound. Liberals would put the emphasis on internalized values, while for conservatives the external rules and structures are prevalent. As a result, liberals would have a more fluid, exploratory approach to ethical questions and conservatives orient themselves on rules, values and norms when faced iwth ethical decisions. That is, of course, a crude simplification, however, it is a valid way of thinking about the controversies we have.
4
I'm glad you brought this up, but it isn't new, of course. There was another column in today's paper about evangelical hypocrisy. As long as they continue to get their news every night from Fox News, I can't see an awakening happening anytime soon. And now, evangelical preachers can be as political as they want and still get the tax protection. I see it getting much worse, not better.
4
Houston men may be more likely to call sex ads, but using the city as an example of a conservative bastion is misleading. Texas is certainly a blue state (for now), but its major metropolitan areas -- Houston, San Antonio, Dallas and Austin -- all voted for Clinton and generally favor Democrats. Houston has had two African-American men and and two women, including an openly gay woman, as mayors. San Francisco, your example of a liberal city, has had one African-American man and one woman as mayors and, surprisingly, no one from the LGBT+ community. Judging someone's politics or morality by generalizations based on what city or state they live in, rather than as individuals, seems as wrong as any other form of discrimination. If you want to take a super-macro view, we should all be judged in this country by Trump's election to the presidency.
4
This illustrates the negative effects of religion on human nature.
Humans have evolved to be a social species. We have developed moral codes because we need these rules to successfully live together in communities. Religion often took the credit for this outcome, but religion neither caused nor created morality—the need to live together to survive did.
Religion, however, has very often been used shame as a means to inculcate these social survival values. As a result we have often tended to teach that sex was bad and should only be practiced within marriage. There was a good reason for this rule. Babies need a years-long support system, and marriage provides that. In a time when there was no effective method of birth control, this was a practical solution. But clamping down so fiercely on our inborn desire to have sex has also has required that we accept the corrosive effects of feeling guilt for something that is a central part of what makes us human.
We no longer need religion to practice the positive social effects of morality. Having sex is indeed dangerous if practiced carelessly. However, severely and over-zealously restricting sex is even more destructive.
Morality is not equivalent to religion, and it’s past time we separate the spiritual and moral components of organized religion’s practice.
2
This is certainly a narrative that the liberal base enjoys reading. That it is simplistic in the extreme, and reflects the author's own biases, are other matters, to be taken up by more honest publications.
4
Talking/preaching are just as different from doing among liberals as among conservatives. And I write that as someone who sticks to mostly liberal friends and acquaintances. Both groups need to stop acting like they have a monopoly on good/moral family practices or their definition. For the kids what matters is whether they grow up safe, accepted and supported in their goals. all the ideologies are just yack yack.
I take issue with Mr. Kristof's depiction of liberals either gloating or being hypocritical regarding this situation. I'm willing to let people choose their actions and not tell them what they should do. My choices are mine; the choices of others, and the consequences, belong to them. There is no judgement nor do I say one thing yet do another.
1
Did I miss it? I don't see any reference to Charles Murray, who long ago made the point that "liberals should start preaching what they practice." For this and other unpopular views he has been run off of many college campuses.
4
Peace, order, and good government, with special emphasis on good government and the money it takes to run it, win out over rebellious lifestyles and excruciatingly low taxes every time.
6
What's laughable about the conservatives' "thundering about family values" and hearkening back to a time when America's values were proper and biblical is that those times never existed. For example, in the Thirteen Colonies during the middle decades of the 18th century, prior to the American Revolution, fully 50% of young couples getting married were already in the "family way". If we had those kind of percentages today, I can't imagine the intensity of the "thundering" we'd be hearing from the red states and the current administration.
4
The essay, although excellent on the whole, tends to overgeneralize: for instance, in those states where abortion rates are lower (blue states, Utah), what is the ratio of abortion clinics to the population? As clinics have been closed over the years, how have the abortion rates changed? And most parents, conservative or liberal/progressive, evangelical or secular, would prefer their teenagers not become pregnant. The difference is in the tools provided, the education given to our (yes, "our") children.
2
Liberals have redefined the term "family" to mean any concatenation of individuals who claim to live as one or who profess a common interest in a child. Conservatives define the family as the nuclear family, consisting of a man and a woman, united by a common biological interest in their children.
I think blue states (to generalize extraordinarily, but that's what pieces like this one do) deprecate the unique importance of the nuclear family, making it one of a wide panoply of acceptable forms. I think this undermines society in long term ways that we will profoundly regret.
4
"Pieces like this" employ data to describe what is happening, in reality. You express your belief, confirmed only by the fact that it's what you think. Big difference.
You also fail to explain how the pregnancies before marriage and high divorce rates found in the red states demonstrate that red states are better for society because of their alleged nuclear family orientation. Is there nothing to "profoundly regret" in those red state statistics?
5
How many so-called Conservative families are young, single women with multiple children from different fathers?
1
But your view depreciates other configurations of family. Open your eyes.
3
Fascinating statistics. In my growing up in a rural village in Canada, a village that was chocker block full of protestant churches, it was often the boys and girls from the more evangelical denominations that often did lots of "fun" stuff in secret and got themselves in the "family way" (the word pregnancy was avoided in those days...imagine) even though they were not allowed to go to dances, date or wear make-up. I suppose it is the "forbidden fruit" analogy. So let's get honest about the family values discussion. It's not a right or left issue. All families want their children to grow up to be successful, functioning, educated adults. You don't need to be religious to install strong family/life values.
4
The religion practiced in the red states is not Christianity. You may say many bad things about historical Christianity and I would be the first one to concur: I am a Jew and the history of persecutions, forced conversions and denigration is a personal one for me. But at least, historical Christianity had a spiritual aspect that found its expression in many marvelous work of art, from the Sistine chapel to Handel’s “Messiah”. You don’t need to believe in God to appreciate the contribution of religious artists and thinkers to human culture. But where the the great works of art inspired by American fundamentalism? Their churches are ugly, their attitudes mean, and their morals hypocritical. Their current champion is an arrogant pedophile. Their idol is the fetus and their icon - the gun. Why would you expect morality in people like this?
29
This was a great bit and bears repeating. I am an elderly American and stand before the mirror have not concluded whether my color is red or blue. That can be left for a later decision. In my little questioning mind I am putting together bits and pieces of the era I have come through and am still standing. I am a writer and have done some stuff like Harper's, etc. I do piece fill in. I would really love to snippet some of your paragraph giving you full credit. Unfortunately no money involved as you receive ten percent of what I receive which at my age and retirement is nothing. Ah life. But if accepted for full article we might get something. Back to my point. I will need your name to quote you. Great point of view. Thank you.
1
The evangelical Church in Texas where an atheist killed 26 people and wounded almost as many recently was a beautiful Church whose members were wonderful people according to accounts from various townspeople. You are generalizing and this is unfair to the majority of those who are good decent people. Would you like others to say the same about your Jewish faith? How would you feel and think about that for a moment. I am not an evangelical but a Christian and know those who are and they do not fit your stereotypical description.
2
Thank ypu, Mr. Kristoff, for a thought-provoking article. All Americans need to stand back from politics and examine what we really think about our values, regardless of where we live. We need to talk about what is really important to our national values unite against those who feel a need to politicize every comment and action, and say, "no more!"
3
While the statistics are not ignored, I object to the categorization of blue versus red states for this article's purpose. Mr. Kristof--you are a caring, brilliant, and persuasive writer. But by penning an article with such a polarizing headline and POV you are contributing to the very same problem we need to overcome--an "us" v. "them" problem.
This isn't about blue versus red. It should be about common core values of community, family, kindness, and respect for others. There are LOTS OF PEOPLE in red states who share these values. Their entrenched LEADERSHIP, however, has far less.
So if we want to win people over so they can see what we have in common and that this isn't another lecture from a liberal northerner, please be thoughtful about how you label them. Their leadership drives fear, anger, and suspicion. So call it for what it is without condemning the entire red state or appearing to praise the blues, for which there is much to fix.
7
People are protected from self-destructive behaviors by their inhibitions and impulse control. It is exactly those who lack impulse control who end up in prison, or pregnant, or bankrupt, and who also need the strongest moral code to help regulate themselves. They are the ones who imagine a vengeful, all-seeing deity offering the choice between salvation on one hand, and eternal torture on the other. And it's not a coincidence that this deity is endlessly forgiving. He needs to be.
Perhaps what rural people perceive in Trump is his lack of impulse control. It is something with which they might identify, and recognize a kindred spirit.
5
I agree that the ability to delay gratification aka impulse control is a critical factor. But this problem started way before Trump was in office. I also agree they need a strong moral code; those who shape the culture need to acknowledge that and try harder. The war on cigarettes was won not because of warning labels, but because liberals succeeded in making smoking shameful and socially unacceptable. Could this approach work with single parenthood?
Someone has pointed out that poverty is more likely a causal factor than the marriage, teen birth rates to official morality which this article compares. Early childhood learning, which Mr. Kristof supports, also may have more of a causal relationship. It might also be instructive to delve a little into hypocrisy as a defense mechanism against actual moral practices when compared to a religious ideal, which shows up in voting patterns.
1
So...people in blue states are less "religious" (whatever that tacky, tarnished word means today) and more intelligent (in making life choices) than our red-state cousins. I'll buy that.
9
There is an implicit accusation of red state hypocrisy in this article, that those who espouse “family values” don’t really practice them. But not so quick please. The statistics for the red states include the entire population. But what if the comparison was to the families of the people who actually voted for the “family values” politicians? Perhaps those voters, a minority of the overall red state population, actually do have lower rates than blue states for out-of-wedlock births, teenage pregnancy, and divorce. Then they are not hypocrites.
But even so, the question remains as to whether a better social safety net and education is a better route to lowering the overall rates than moralizing and culture wars.
2
The U.S. has the highest rates of teen pregnancy in the developed world. This is attributed to lack of sex-education, abstinence-only programs, Christian/ideological belief that sex outside of marriage is a sin, and difficulty accessing birth control. Contrast that with Switzerland, which has the lowest rate of teen pregnancy in the developed world along with Scandivanian countries. Age-appropriate sex-education has been compulsory for five decades in these countries, and most teens use contraception before their first sexual encounter because of this. In addition, birth control is easily accessible in these countries. Switzerland and Scandivanian countries are more secular, but the population is also better educated, and society is more equitable.
93
Nations listed are mostly white and Christian
5
Red states or blue states are not engaging in premarital sex, getting divorces, or having teen pregnancies. Families/Individuals living in those states are.
Even in those states, highest teen pregnancy rates are among blacks and Hispanics.
Sometimes I just wonder if these NYT opinion writers do not understand basic stats, or if they deliberately engage in pushing narratives that NYT liberal base enjoys reading.
5
This article says Mormons have one of the highest opioid addiction rates.
http://www.wnyc.org/story/drug-overdoses-and-lds-community/
1
I grew up on the South Side of Chicago and poor urban blacks.
I now live in the South with poor rural whites.
The problems are the same, teenage pregnancy, drugs, crime, high school drop out rates, prison, single mom families.
The only thing I traded was rap music for country.
21
It isn't the religion that leads to the messed up living, it's the opposite. I'm not religious myself, but I get it. These people have lives that are so screwed up that they turn to religion. And live in denial.
3
I grew up in Central Florida, and all of my relatives were in Tennessee. No one in my family or extended family thought twice before criticizing or even damning another person. Family manners and public manners were incongruent. Children in particular, although fussed over in church and when meeting family friends, met with harsh glances and indifference at home. This was my own and many of my friends' experience.
Now, after 35 years living in the north, I can definitively point to hundreds of families where fondness and kindness (even down to body language) is the norm. Blue folks are far better at fostering cognitive resonance: their inner beliefs match their outward acts.
112
You are confused. "Family values" has nothing to do with actual personal conduct. That's the beauty of the doctrine of salvation through repentance. Say "I repent and accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and savior" 10 seconds before you die, after a lifetime of the most vile sinning imaginable and you're in like (Gen.) Flynn.
"Family values" is about what, and how often and how imperiously you tell other people whathow to conduct themselves. Not what you do yourself. How could Roy Moore with all that sinning with young fertile women not have gotten at least a few of them in the family way? Are there no love children out there, Moore or less? Were there some Roy Moore-facilitated back street abortions that happened before or even after Roe ever sued Wade? But... doesn't matter. Salvation through repentence is all that matters. The rest is just so much cringe-flavored toothpaste.
7
I think the situation is a lot simpler than you make out:
Parents in blue states are realistic about sex and talk to their kids about it in an open way. They encourage their kids to use birth control. Sex is not some taboo subject that no one talks about.
Social-conservative parents who deny the possibility of homosexuality, the usefulness of birth control, and the potential need for abortion are doing their children a grave disservice. That's all you really need to say about the subject.
9
Kids don't need to be having sex
They need to learn self respect and personal responsibility
3
Learning about sexuality at a young age (pre-teen) was taught in my junior high school in the early sixties. To disparage education of any kind is the reason for the decline in knowledge among our electorate today.
3
Hi Barb: I'm not sure if you are trolling me with that comment, but let me share a story: My 15-year-old daughter had a female classmate whose mother thought the way you do and would not let her daughter go on the pill or use any form of birth control b/c she told her daughter, "I don't want you having sex." When the young woman started seeing a boy, they had frequent, unprotected sex. The young woman worried all the time about getting pregnant, but nothing could stop her from having sex with her boyfriend. The story has a happy ending b/c a friend took her to the doctor and she went on the pill, thereby avoiding an abortion or a lifetime of misery - all b/c an adult thought she shouldn't be having sex and should instead "learn self respect and personal responsibility." You can have your ideals but nothing is going to stop people from having sex.
2
If Hillary Clinton had won the election, it is very unlikely we would be seeing an article like this in the liberal New York Times and having this dialogue. Why wan't this written while President Obama was in the Oval Office. I do not recall reading about this topic while he was president. Doesn't part of this blame on early sexual activity and marriage fall at the hands of Democrats? The liberals wait until a Republican president is in office before they start the blame game. The progressive Democrats had their chance and lost it. Now hopefully the Republicans can clean up the mess caused by the Democrats.
4
“Red regions of the country have higher teen pregnancy rates, more shotgun marriages and lower average ages at marriage and first birth,” Naomi Cahn and June Carbone wrote in their important 2010 book, “Red Families v. Blue Families.”
Pretty sure Barack Obama was President in 2010 when Cahn's and Carbone's book came out. Also pretty sure this piece by Kristof is not the first time I read an opinion piece on this subject in The NY Times.
2
One takeaway from this article is simple (to say, at least) - practice what you preach (literally, figuratively, legally, and morally), irrespective of location.
Red states, blue states...what about the United States?
www.thewaryouknow.com
3
We would really need to know the impact of differing abortion rates in order to draw any conclusions from the statistics presented in the article.
2
One takeaway from this article is simple (to say, at least) - practice what you preach (literally, figuratively, legally, and morally).
Red states, blue states...what about the United States?
www.thewaryouknow.com
4
It wasn't until I moved to a red state that I had ever seen a bumper sticker celebrating a 5 times married male with "Honk if you were Married to XXX YYYY" Yes his name was inserted and people thought this was funny - hardly a sign of family values more a sign of blatant hypocrisy.
6
The bottom line is that this has to do with income inequality. Red states are poorer and blue states are richer. Teen pregnancy is correlated with poverty.
And this distinction wouldn't even be article-worthy if conservatives would just stop pretending like their way is so righteous and morally superior in comparison to those hedonistic liberal yankees.
This opens them up to constant attacks of hypocrisy, which instead of reflecting on why that is, they then whine non-stop about it as the liberal media treating them unfairly and coastal elites looking down at them with scorn.
Even more amazing is that still they fell for the smooth-talking, "tells it like it is" Yankee con-man/carpetbagger from NYC, Donald Trump.
And that after they fell for the Yankee con-man/carpetbagger "from Texas" (by way of being born and raised in Connecticut and educated at the highest level in New England), George W Bush.
And let's not forget Ted "the most conservative man you ever met" Cruz, a Harvard graduate, born in Canada.
Really hard to take these people serious at this point.
97
Teen pregnancy has nothing to do with poverty! Being poor doesn't mean you lack morals.
2
@ barb tennant
OBVIOUSLY, "Being poor doesn't mean you lack morals.".
But the same way teen pregnancy doesn't mean you lack morals.
Most likely the pregnant teen lives in a red state, had no real sex ed classes, and couldn't get or afford the pill.
5
at the end of this column i find myself asking, "are you certain that conservatives don't want kids (girls) pregnant at sixteen ?
7
It doesn't take a PhD from Harvard to know one of the most important factors is education.
Yet we fund education by property taxes so the poorest communities get the worst schools.
And all my Republican friends say the poor just need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.
At the same time, as soon as they have children, they move to the best school district they can afford.
100
No menr
Tion here oof home schooling which in my experience provides the worst possible start to life in a modern world
1
Years ago, when living in another state, a southern born pastor in a very strict fundamentalist church I attended preached that UPC codes portended 'the end' and were the mark of the devil. Another religious group in the same era euthanized all their pets because 'the end' was near and animals were not part of the rapture. Then the world was going to end in the year 2000-or at least society as we know it was going to perish. I cringe when I think of the nonsense that some religious constituents of red states accept as truth.
When kindness, fairness, justice and compassion are ones religion, it follows that educational opportunities and a progressive society will result.
18
Indicators of societal stress like suicide, teenage pregnancy, opiate addiction and the like are as high or higher in states with conservative, Christian politics than in more liberal states. I don't think that the people whose culture explicitly promotes traditional family values are necessarily hypocritical because they often fail to live up to those values. States like California, New York, and Massachusetts have historically been stronger economically than the states in the Bible belt. The rich states have a better educated population, too. Poverty and lack of education cause social distress.
4
This is exactly the point that Charles Murray makes in Coming Apart. But a principal cause of that is de-industrialization and the offshoring of what were once solid union jobs that has created the Rust Belt conditions of unemployment and social disintegration that are the material basis of these problems.
4
Correct! The answer to many of society's problems is simple: JOBS JOBS JOBS.
2
Political corruption manifests in many forms. Sex education, public education and other social services here in Texas are about as well funded as the NYC subway system.
I was surprised to hear a news person use the word "insurgency" to describe an element within the Republican party. The Republican party IS a a well-funded insurgency that commands all the respect that money can buy. It is about time we start calling the problem what it is.
The next phrase I am watching for is "extraction economy." Long practiced as an essential part of 'colonialism,' I believe our home-grown insurgency is transferring our wealth and resources to well-funded corporate 'colonialists.'
The combination of poor education and a firehose of unresolved political distractions will be the end of us. We need the press to reise to the occasion and start calling the situation for what it is.
Thanks, Nick.
5
Again Mr Kristof the allegations against Mr Moore are bad enough without being described as "child molestation". Human beings have existed for about 300,000 years. Up until about 1880 the average marriage age in even the most advanced nations of the time was about 14 for girls and 16 for boys. Therefore I put it to you that if American high school students - whether in blue or red states - are claiming they have not had sex, they are either lying - or if you want to be charitable - they are putting up a very high bar of what counts as "sex".
In my opinion the modern predilection to deny that adolescents are sexual beings and to attempt to suppress their free expression of their sexuality - ah, with other adolescents not themselves - is a human rights violation. For almost all of human history adolescents were regarded as young adults. They are not children. You can't change human nature by act of parliament (or congress) or sermon or political punditry. Acknowledging their humanity and their liberty while educating and empowering them to avoid STD's and pregnancy is more humane and better policy I believe.
2
I assume you are not a historian? While there are some nations where people's marriage age was 14 for girls and 16 for boys, it was not at all wide-spread and is certainly not an average age. While I can speak off the top of my head for only a few countries I've studied, here are some examples:
Norway (while still under Swedish rule) in the mid-1700s up through the end of the 19th century, rural average marriage age was about 25-26 for men and about 22-23 for women. Other Scandinavian regions had similar averages leading up and through the industrial revolution.
Medieval Spain saw some exceptions among the royalty for marrying young, but again, typically average marriage ages were between 18 and 23.
A good number of boys and girls between the ages of 14 and 16 are still in the process of losing their baby teeth and many have yet to reach sexual maturity. This was true even more 300 years ago - as the start of menarche in post-industrial counties has lowered only in the last 50 some years.
4
Michelle - no I am not an historian. Actually I confess that those figures were just based on me coming across an almanac of the period which listed the average marriage age of a few of the most advanced countries of the time as 14 or 15 for girls and 16 or 17 for boys without exception. I am surprised by your figures; having just done some further research I concede there was more variation in Europe at and before that time than I thought. I also supposed the marriage of common people would be earlier, not later than "nobility".
In any case, Europe in either medieval or modern times is not all of human history, most of human history people lived in small hunter-gatherer groups not afflicted by Judeo-Christian morality imposing sexual abstinence until one is married in one's late teens or twenties. Your last sentence contradicts itself though I am aware the last part of it is true. It's a bit difficult to check this but I bet the age of menarche has generally been about 13 around the world for all of the human past. I just think trying to restrict teens from having sex with other teens if they want is cruel.
Good, common sense comment. I can only add that the start of menarche is related to body fat, and during the last 50-something years, many populations in our states have put on more body fat and thus girls as young as 10 - 11 can become pregnant.
In such an evidence-based assessment, it is telling that so much of the counterargument hinges on the completely unsupported notion that "[liberals] encourage their children to simultaneously combine public tolerance with private discipline."
Blue states support for abortion negates any claim of moral superiority they might have. To claim the moral high ground while while saying killing a baby is perfectly okay is the height of hypocrisy.
5
Remember: abortion is legal in all 50 states. States with lower rates of unwanted pregnancies have less need for abortion -- and red states have higher rates of such pregnancies. Blue states have better sex education and access to birth control. If you truly want to reduce abortions, these are proven ways to do so. Abstinence only education is a joke. Also, if you are against abortion, what have you done -- personally -- to help with the high financial costs of having children? Have you adopted children? Have you supported single mothers who are struggling financially? Are you voting to for politicians who support welfare programs for needy families? Pro life? -- Pony up!
13
If you want to lessen the frequency of abortion then you should be supporting free contraception for all.
2
I think your metric is wrong. I think it is socioeconomic. Certainly in my state, CA,we have the coast wealthy and educated and the Central Valley poor and uneducated. The differences you describe are evident.
3
My mother used to say that the thing against which one most strongly protests is often the thing that is most tempting. The older I get, the more truth I see in that...
I think 'family values' are good, and I am unwilling to drop the issue simply because Democrats are now winning, and Republicans are losing. Quiet the contrary is indicated. Let's continue this, and eventually some Republicans may come to realize that the word 'liberal' does not mean 'hippie', but 'humane, kind and egalitarian'.
2
I think people are very similar. Among my family, friends, co-op neyghbors, city contacts and all the people I meet in my daily life I haven’t found a real “dimes worth of difference”. My evangelical nieces practice and want the same lives as us non believers. My closest sister is, in my opinion, an overly devout Catholic but she understands and accepts that I have no “faith”.
All of us seem to agree on the basics, what we each should do to respect ourselves and others. We do not, at times, agree on how best to achieve the goals but we do agree that each of us has the Individual Responsability to do the necessary work.
3
Possible that the family values orientation of redder communities is aspirational? Given economic circumstances that make living these values harder to achieve, louder proclamation of their importance isn’t hypocritical, its motivational.
2
The Survey mentioned in this article which detailed and measured whether teens ever had sex is from 2015. President Obama was in the White House when this survey was conducted and his policies obviously had little or no effect on these southern states. What happened to his hope and change campaign he promised America. Obviously it did not reach this part of the country. They certainly did not help these poor southern states; and if they had, Hillary Clinton would be sitting in the White House now. Mr. Obama concentrated on the liberal urban areas with aid and assistance and these southern parts were ignored by Democrats.
Hopefully this survey will be a wake up call for Republicans and in particular President Trump who received the votes of these residents. Staying in school and aiming for higher eduction should be uppermost on their agenda and discouraging these teens from marrying early and before they are ready to start a family. These southerners are bright but need encouragement and hope which was not given to them under the previous administration. I know many southerners and they are intelligent and lovely people. They were given a chance to succeed and got a college degree which helped them get ahead. Higher education should be the goal but at least trade schools should be promoted. They need role models who will mentor them and set a good example. I hope the Republicans are paying attention.
1
Part of the problem in the red states is that they've been taken in by Fundamentalism instead of true Christianity.
Fundamentalism tells you that as long as you're a believer, no matter what you do you're "forgiven," and therefore, it can be used as an excuse for bad behavior. Fundamentalism tells you that "God has a plan" so the idea that one is responsible for one's failures or successes is out of your hands. If you read Fundamentalist literature from mega pastors (who rarely have real divinity degrees or even an accredited college education) they say that if you just believe and pray right God is going to give you something. They focus on how their congregants should look for the specs in other's eyes as opposed to the planks in their own.
Liberals often adhere to religions headed by people who have actually gone to divinity school and are educated. These spiritual leaders do not preach that belief is going to guarantee you a good life. They focus far more on making moral personal choices. They often ask their congregants to focus on their own life choices while showing mercy to people with poorer life choices. As the clergy is educated, they encourage that in their congregations.
True Christianity is hard. Fundamentalism is easy. It's not surprising that unsuccessful people are drawn to Fundamentalism. Magical thinking is easier than hard work.
11
Kristoff totally misses the point of Christian moralism (or maybe he's being deliberately obtuse). Teen age single mothers are an acceptable price to pay for preventing those girls from reproductive freedom and everything that comes with it: education, higher income and more independence. They don't like abortion and divorce since these are exit strategies from the poverty and dependence trap. But as long as they are part of the US, they can't strip women of all rights and this is what powers the culture war and its resentments.
7
Liberals and conservatives, Red states and Blue states; all are meaningless concepts when it comes to social or moral values. Groups of people do not behave in a particular manner, individual people do; and it is this very arbitrary division of people into us and them that is causing the lack of communication which plague or nation today.
Roy Moore, Harvey Weinstein, Roman Polanski, and the like are bad people. It is as simple as that. Their politics, their professions, their racial background have nothing to do with it; they are simply bad people. To try to generalize about others who may share the above traits with them is ridiculous.
There are very sincere people everywhere, of all political stripes, who live their lives according to a moral code. These are good people. There are people everywhere, of all political stripes, who are hypocrites about their morality. These are bad people. That is the only division that makes any sense.
2
Before I finished the article I knew how some people would respond - with denial, anger, off-topic comments, and even personal insults to Mr. Kristof. You can put indisputable facts and hard numbers in front them and they still take umbrage with reality. The more you try to reason with them, the harder they dig in their heels. Hence we have Trump and the abominations he is inflicting on this country and the Roy Moores who apparently are given a green light to reprehensible crimes like pedophilia. In my opinion, the only answer is to do away with the Electoral College and enact the popular vote (paper ballots) for ALL elections.
4
If I recall it was the New York Times who featured an article about the hook-up mentality prevalent in the city a few years ago. Teens were having indiscriminate sex with anyone they liked and frequently. I would not call this an example of exemplary family values that the progressives are promoting others to follow. They need to practice what they preach and stop condemning others.
3
WMK people including teens need access to contraception and safe sex. If a young girl is on a form of hormonal birth control or an IUD and her male partner uses a condom there is little chance of pregnancy. This is likely to occur in cities and groups with high educational level and high rational quotient who have access to good confidential medical care. So having sex is not a dangerous evil thing but rather something most people do beginning at say age 14 to 17.
On the other hand the uneducated in unconstitutionally religiously dominated rural communities have young sex like practically everybody does but with no Planned Parenthood, evangelical parents or non-communicative parents, with lots of moralizing religionists interfering with their rights to even medical care and their lives are changed - they get pregnant the young girl and boy. She is relegated to a sub-standard education and struggle. He is destined to a life paying child support from menial jobs. The progeny have no way out easily, they will likely proceed down the same path.
Hooking up is not the problem. Ignorance, religion over rationality, lack of education and contraceptive resources are the problem.
6
That "Liberals... encourage their children to simultaneously combine public tolerance with private discipline" is not a matter of hypocrisy. It is a matter of making private decisions and wanting to ensure that option is available to everyone, within the law. It is practicing and promoting Liberty with a large L It is *not* changing the law to ensure your private decisions are enforced upon everyone else to assuage your own guilt and shame.
5
Statistics aside, for decades our family drives from NY down I-95 to Florida revealed the existence of "gentleman's clubs" and a variety of prophylactic dispensers in every men's room in the states we had always thought of as conservative, where religion reigned (just listen to AM radio). Never saw any of this in the northeast. If you're old enough, these areas also had separate entrances or no admittance for blacks. Religion sure seemed different and hypocritical.
2
In a nutshell, hypocrisy.
4
Not so quick.
What if the actual voters who support the "family values" politicians in red states have lower rates of teenage pregnancy, out-of-wedlock births, and divorce than the red states at large and/or the blue states? That wouldn't make them hypocrites.
The comparison to overall state statistics is misleading because only a minority of the population votes, and then only a percentage of those voters actually support the elected politicians.
Of course that still leaves the question of whether the solution is more moralizing and culture wars, rather than constructing a more robust safety net and better educational opportunities.
I grew up in a relatively conservative, religious area. I live now in suburban Connecticut. On my facebook feed, there is a great divide.
With one exception, everyone who both a) still lives in our "hometown" and b) did not graduate college is divorced at least once, or has at least one child out of wedlock.
With one exception, everyone I know who graduated college and left our hometown, and everyone I know in Connecticut, is happily married and has had all children within marriage.
Most of my "hometown" friends have kids that are in high school. Most of my "Connecticut" friends have babies, toddlers, and kindergarteners.
Most of my "hometown" friends post endless negativity, drama and religious "affirmations" about how Jesus will make everything OK. Most of my "Connecticut" friends post pics of family outings and positive things; even when they are going through rough times, they rarely post drama.
Two different worlds. Income and job opportunity has a lot to do with it, but I also think there is just something about completing college that makes you a more intellectually complex, less dramatic, calmer, more patient person with stronger long term planning skills and a better ability to compromise and assess the big picture. When lots of college educated people live in one spot, they perpetuate a culture amongst themselves with those values.
When lots of less educated people live together, they perpetuate a culture of drama and negativity and impulse.
104
re: anon
Yeah: 4, (or more), extra years to grow up in where you get to read about how so many others have messed up their lives . . .
I had the same experience. All of my "hometown" friends were having sex in high school. When I arrived at college, none of the "crazy liberals" were having sex. I can only think of two of my college friends who had sex in high school.
1
Family values is however you choose to define it. It's a nonsensical term.
3
Amen. Knowledge is power and the only possible fuel to save humanity. Preaching from the mountain top, while living a morally questionable life that breaks your promises, is the "conservatives" long held position and is killing us.
10
The hypocrisy of Ralph Reed, Tony Perkins, and company knows no bounds;
Gary Bauer, Tony Perkins, the Rev. Robert Jeffress and Ralph Reed have all restated their support for Trump in light of the release of a videotape that shows him to be not only lewd but a sexual predator. “A ten-year-old tape of a private conversation with a talk show host ranks low on their hierarchy of concerns,” Reed said, about people of faith.
14
I think it's important to note that Mormons practice excommunication, which may account for their low divorce and teen pregnancy rates.
9
Despite their exotic theology, Mormons are the socially conservative remnants of New England Puritanism (remember Banned in Boston?) and are not Southern.
3
Families are part of communities. Families do better, communities do better. There is less stress on everyone.
It seems to me that the Red States fit the definition of a parasite. Of course , the perfect parasite does not kill its host ( which , in this case is our Nation). But we are pretty debilitated from this nonsense and something is going to give.
We need to skip the values-based and political-based theories of taking care of our people and get into reality based life.
One hand helping another person is better than two hands praying.
Otherwise, there is going to be a bloody revolution.
20
Nicholas, what nonsense it is to say that liberals are hypocrites for practicing family values (encouraging their children not to have children while in high school) while being "wary of strict moral codes." Surely you can see one has nothing to do with the other. You don't have babies while in high school because of practical reasons (how can you pay for it? What about your future and career), not for "moral" ones. There's nothing immoral about sex, and liberals don't pretend there is. Conservatives, on the other hand, blather on about morality, yet have little or none.
More false equivalence, Nicholas. Just stop it.
19
But increasingly gentrified liberals DO practice a strict moral code informed by political correctness and feminism as recent events have shown, and I'm not saying that's bad. But as Charles Murray points out, it's a return to the old pre-New Deal social relations of a Victorian minded "progressive" upper middle class looking down on the wretched, benighted working class living in squalor. But both continue to hold onto-or live in the shadow of-their previous, opposite, ethos and reputation from the 60s period.
1
Wrong, Sue. Rather than looking down on the "benighted" working classes living in "squalor," progressives want to raise the minimum wage, implement more government programs to help those working classes, redistribute wealth so that the rich can be rich without being obscenely rich and depriving the poor of their fair share. Look at every and any progressive position, and you will see that it serves to benefit the poor, not look down on them.
2
So the decades long Republican war on knowledge and the tools to use it is measurably successful. It's hard to believe we will ever be a great nation again.
12
What we have in a lot of red states and communities (and a few blue ones, but far less so) is a combination of lack of education, high poverty, and a belief system and ideology that depends on denying facts in both the hard and soft sciences. Throw in a lingering Puritan streak and you pretty much have the perfect storm.
I wish there had been some comparison to European countries. Seems they are far less hung up on these issues and far less prone to these problems than most Americans, red or blue.
14
The main reasons red states lag blue states are conservative/evangelical religion and what I would call the cycle of ignorance passed down from generation to generation. As long as Christians believe birth control, sex education and abortion are immoral, they will have higher rates of teenage pregnancy, abortion and girls have babies. As long as they reject science and education, they will remain ignorant, backward, and poor.
Virginia may stand as a model of hope, however. Virginia has transformed from red to blue mainly due to population growth in the liberal northeast/D.C. area. Cities and increasingly suburbs are generally progressive. The more southern youth move to urban areas for jobs and education, the greater impact they will have on state politics.
The other reason for hope is the changing demographic of America from majority white to majority brown. It may take another 10 or 20 years, but the transformation of the U.S. population is inevitable.
Nothing is guaranteed in politics, but we may have hit rock bottom with the Trump era. We shall see.
17
Yes. Virginia is the bell weather state for future elections. Education and progressive ideas won the day and will continue to do so, in states where these values are prominent.
The “Brown” world votes Democrat, but its statistics are awfully similar to those in the Red States. And don’t forget that Prop 8 was put over in 2008 by them; it lost the White and Asian vote.
2
I wonder if , one year, Dr. K will wake up to his own basic hypocrisy and realize that since our most immediate problems are here in the USA, that his annual "Dr. K's win a trip to see real poverty and devastation", will visit the red states where America's most intransigent and severe social problems originate and are embedded in the local culture which celebrates them. Maybe he'll take along a few books by Sam Clemens to teach his students that these problems are of really long standing, and that famous humorists recognized this before the Civil War.
Somehow I doubt it. Nothing will ever be heard of the concept, or an explanation about why he takes his students to foreign nations will be forthcoming, (even though our most intractable problems are right outside the rear window).
3
me are you not so subtly talking about white people here in this comment ... If that was - unbelievably - subconscious let me also remark that you are talking about places with high population density vs. empty places. So you might prefer the local culture in the far north of Canada or Siberia or the moon also.
Great column. I wish the DNC (or some idle billionaire obsessed with impeachment) would spend its money on ads promoting the concrete advantages of liberal values. I think the message needs to get out not only that liberals also have family values (even Christian values) but that they WORK – making a better society for all.
17
Umm the idle billionaires affiliated with the DNC are all entangled with the Clintons, who are not in a position to lecture on family values.
3
Birth Control - acceptance of it, access to it, encouragement of it - pretty much explains the all of big differences pointed out in this article.
19
Amen. Its free here in México. No questions asked. Turned around generations of huge families within 20 years. Its quite good what universal health care can accomplish.
1
Quite an interesting stretch here, to use teen behavior for a proxy of judging the moral behaviors of political groups.
3
Violence, harassment, sexual promiscuity --these are socioeconomic not regional ills. They are explained largely by poverty --the world over. Parental education and income levels are the best predictor of children's success and moral compass. But the South is poorer and herein lies the explanation for its poor performance across governance, citizenship, health and education benchmarks.
The true sin of the South is that it is ruled by a white power elite that disdains quality public education, healthcare, social safety nets and equal opportunity. Football, religion and shared antagonism towards 'others', northern intellectuals and pols are the opiates that perpetuate the myth of moral superiority. Moore backers even scapegoat their benefactors in the GoP and Government despite huge federal subsidies.
How can the country come together when the Alabama GoP circles the wagons in support of a ridiculous Roy Moore. Their defense of Moore as an anti-establishment religious crusader can only be received with ridicule by the rest of the country --except perhaps for Evangelicals who have lost their moral compass. And the ridicule will reinforce scapegoating and beget more of the same benefiting only the Alabama elites and evangelicals who hold the state in thrall to serve their own narrow vested interests.
The hope is for the many in Alabama--the young, educated and elite who know better and want better--to break with the debilitating Southern myth of moral superiority.
15
It’s a cycle. Poverty is often explained or worsened by “violence, harassment, sexual promiscuity”.
"Blue States Practice the Family Values Red States Preach"
I didn't know that the Blue states had banned abortion. Thanks for telling me.
7
Sticking one's nose into other people's business is not a family value.
13
Yes, but Republicans only care about life before birth - those precious fetuses are "perfect" don't you know - and not about the mothers and families, or others at risk or trying to survive on less than a minimum wage at two or three jobs. They just want tax cuts for the rich and a free ride for kleptocrats. Death camps for the elderly, the sick, the downtrodden, those "others" and the people we hurt with our foreign adventures.
Please go back and read the gospels. Jesus was not about exclusion, hatred, and acquisition, and wealth is not a sign of god's favor, nor is forgiveness for lies and exploitation.
5
I forgot to mention the child after it is born. Killing living people and letting babies and their mothers die or starve or get sick is fine with these so-called Christians. As I said, try the gospels.
6
It does not matter if you are a self styled liberal or a conservative.
It does not matter if your religion or your culture tells you to live certain values.
What is usually the most interesting thing for you, is what looks like forbidden fruit.
So you get interested and you want to try it.
This is rather common.
Guess who has the highest per capita porn consumption in the world?
Saudi Arabia of all states, the place in which owning porn can get you in jail and even a death sentence.
So the thing is about how to handle these issues.
The less prohibited items there are, the easier it is to handle these "interesting items".
Europe has had it's sexual revolution in the 1970 and guess what, the kids have sex if they feel like it, usually starting between 15 and 16 years of age, and there has been no increase in teen pregnancies as at the same time they have learned how to use contraceptives.
There was no increase in STDs as well.
And guess what, there is a huge but rather silent majority of young people in Europe who still uphold family values and live them too.
The US has a problem with religion, which has been playing a too large role in shaping a society based on rules that are out of this world.
And it gets worse with the advent of new and stronger but at the same time very conservative religions that demand their place in society.
Time to learn from other societies and educate the kids by showing them a way to cope instead of forcing restrictions onto them.
29
Oh. A morality scorecard, is it? Income is the proper scorecard. Red counties are overwhelmingly poorer than blue counties. Similar rates of destructive pathologies are found in both blue innercity locales and red rural and exurban locales. No mystery. And most assuredly not some politically imbued moral superiority. A column like this in an important newspaper portraying some sort of gravitas is a disservice to intelligent debate, and brings deserved scorn. Perhaps more editors should have been retained, and less exotic travel to Papua New Guinea to lecture the Aussies, hm?
7
Respectfully disagree. Complicated issues are multi-faceted and we need to be able to discuss all aspects of the issue. The data supports the debate. Your assumption of "imbued moral superiority" is defensiveness.
1
While I agree that poverty is key here, maybe we should be asking why Republican majority Red states keep failing to pull their populations out of poverty? They've been in control for decades. Where is the always-promised free market miracle?
18
If you read the article carefully, it's not highlighting a scorecard of morality--It's highlighting a scorecard of hypocrisy, and pointing out that "family values" hypocrisy is doing little to mitigate the social ills it purports to condemn.
1
The red states are also home to significantly higher rates of obesity, drug addiction and alcoholism than blue states. A sorry state of affairs indeed.
.
38
It is instructive to point out that, despite the fact that the same-sex sodomy law, though unenforceable since 1979, is still on the books in Texas because the Texas legislature doesn’t want to be seen to be taking any action that “encourages” homosexuality. Yet the Texas legislature has never passed laws prohibiting bestiality.
Apparently, having sex with your boyfriend is not viewed as favorably as having sex with your horse in the Lone Star State.
16
Perhaps the Texas legislature has never passed a law prohibiting bestiality because there has never been a reported case.
3
I'm trying to think of conservative writers who obsessively smear blue states with dishonest statistical contortions and vehement hate. Can't think of one. The left has serious, deep seated psychological problems at the core of its radical extremist hate.
7
Overreacting a bit, are we? Conservatives don't need writers smearing blue states. They have their candidates (and, it would appear, commenters) do it. You don't dispute a single statistical assertion in the column, but immediately jump right to "deep-seated psychological problems" and "radical extremist hate". Wow. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! And I only say this to point out how your comment is a perfect example of how conservatives don't feel the need to actually debate anything anymore. When they hear something they don't like, they just dismiss it by calling it "fake news" or "hate". I guess anything beats having to actually THINK about things.
1
Absolutely right. Abuse of statistic is hat it is. Even in red states, teen pregnancies are highest among demographics that vote democrat.
Seriously? Read Sean Hannity or Bill O’Reilly and their attacks on the godless west coast. Give me a break. At least this column backs up the critique with real statistics.
4
Is a state that went 47% Trump and 46.5% Clinton a red state? Is a state that went for Trump in 2016 and Obama in 2012 a red state? What a ridiculous article. One would expect this article in the National Inquirer.
6
Absolutely. You elect a republican by a margin of 0.5%, you own every ill that the "minority" had been perpetuating. Typical liberal logic.
2
Great Article... Always good to have data for what many of us thought was obvious to the casual observer... goes hand in hand most least educated states seem to be most far right... I always like to think about the best universities and their ecosystems ( Stanford, Harvard, columbia, Yale, Penn etc ) and map that to voting trends to... its about the education stupid.
thank you for making the point a bit more scientific...
11
How do you explain that the majority of voters with college degrees voted for Trump, not for Hillary? The majority of voters with less than a high school diploma voted for Hillary, not Trump.
Historically, as you move up the educational achievement of voters, the more education individuals have, the more likely they are to vote Republican, with the sole exception that PhDs tend to vote Democrats. Since PhDs are a very tiny proportion of the voting population, they are unable to swing elections.
What was unusual in 2016 is that the group with a high school diploma, which traditionally votes 60/40 Democrat/Republican, went 60/40 Republican/Democrat this time. But college educated still went Republican as usual.
The Democrat meme that they are the party of the educated has always hung exclusively on the fact that the people with the longest time in college, the PhDs, tend to vote Democrat. They ignore the fact that the least educated also vote overwhelmingly Democrat.
Republicans are much better educated than Democrats. Smarter also.
4
Fact: Liberal Democrats are the most educated and wealthiest demographic in the country. The top three religious groups in this category are Sikhs, Hindus and Reform Jews. Google it.
Good grief even Kristof falls for the trap of both sidedness the mainstream media is all too ready to push at every turn. Its not hypocrisy to not look down at out of wedlock births but make sure your kids don't have them.
3
Thanks.
A question not asked often enough of red state conservative christians, why do you condemn, punish, and try to pass laws about behavior that you have not changed in your own church leaders and members?
And why do you defend and subvert investigations when your church and political leaders break the law.?
20
As soon as you explain why leftists condemned Clarence Thomas when it was never even alleged he had done anything wrong, while Bill Clinton and his wife were given a waiver on predatory sexual behavior, you will be entitled to an explanation of why right wing organizations tend to defend their leaders when allegations of sexual misbehavior are alleged.
You will find many occasions of false allegations against people on the right, and many suppressed investigations of people on the left.
3
Blue states also share the red state values of: religion (in excess) harassment of minorities, segregation, EXTREME inequality (moreso even than the reds), overpopulation, violence, foreclosure, exploitation and abuse of the elderly, and cruelty to animals. On top of that, blue states have excessive taxation, high cost of living and out-of-control poverty and homelessness. Perhaps it is this back-patting self-congratulation and blindness to our faults which led to the downfall of the liberals. If you are not rich, blue states are not great places to live.
5
I've been to 50 states, and I can't recall a single one that looked either color. I would have noticed that!
3
Shame on Nicholas Kristof (and anyone else, including especially Michelle Goldberg) for lumping Al Franken into the same category as Harvey Weinstein and Louis C.K.
A juvenile mimed “groping” of a woman wearing a flak jacket (memorably analogized by another clever commenter to giving someone a head massage through a hard hat), by a comedian entertaining some twenty-something troops out in a war zone, involving no physical contact by the man with the woman’s breasts or even her flak jacket, is not even in the same universe as serial criminal sexual predation by those other men or our pussygrabber in chief.
Liberals and progressives need to stop falling for the conservatives’ whattaboutism and false equivalency schtick. It hurts, not helps, our cause.
25
You missed the claim that Franken shoved his tongue down that women's throat .
No, I didn't. One kiss in a rehearsed skit. Watch SNL some time; you'll see plenty of the same. And a single woman, not multiple women with the same story. Still not in the same universe as serial sexual predators actually abusing women (or men). People who can't see the difference are blind or ideologically driven. Read other comments. Actual victims of sexual harassment and/or abuse are offended by the comparison. It's a political hit job, nothing more.
This kind of article is a large part of why Nicholas Kristof and the NYT are fast falling into the abyss of sociopolitical journalism gobblygook. Relating teen birth rates and sexual morales to voting records state by state...Give me a break! These studies (where do they all come from), if looked at closely, would be found to be full of flaws, lack any substantive sourcing and presented by naive academic pointy head wannabes. There are hundreds of them in every direction you look, you can make any argument for or against any of them. However Kristoff and his colleagues take them as gospel and audaciously think you should too. If this is the best you got Nick, you and your ideology are groveling.
3
Sounds like you are calling these statistics and their associated research 'fake news'. Well, I believe the research. Besides, you needn't look further than recent headlines to see how so many red state folks conduct themselves in private while publicly demonizing the 'liberal elite'. The cat is out of the bag. If this bothers you, head on over to Fox. They are more comfortable with 'alternative facts'.
People who write responses to NYT columns tend to overanalyze and overwrite, so let me be very plain here. I have lived in very blue places (Maryland, DC, California), and worked very red jobs (shipping clerk, truck driver, house painter). My red jobs have often taken me for days on end into red states, and I couldn't wait until the gigs were over and I could get back to the "liberal elites" who were so much kinder, more open minded and tolerant than the self-involved and churlish "real Americans" who seem to wave the flag for every tinpot hypocrite who thumps a bible (only King James!).
23
Nick, if the religious leaders in the Red states were not such hypocrites, our country could've solved lot of our social problems by this time.
It's really ironic that the same preachers and priests who preach in the conservative churches in the Red states preach celibacy for all the teens but push for child marriages at the same time.
No wonder states like Texas with 34,793, Florida with 14,278,the list goes on and on of child marriages that was registered in those states between 2000-10, the figure you provided to us in your article in May.
And what does the conservative priests and preachers say along with all the lawmakers of those states ?
They all say in unison that it's okay for a 14 year old girl to have sex and have ten or more children by the time time she's 24 years old,if she gets married to her man who might be older than 40 years or more from her.
And yes, these 14 or 16 year old girls do have lot more children only because the same preachers and their state Senators and Assembly members do not condone any kind of birth control saying Jesus said so which to me is nothing but a bull after reading everything that Jesus preached.
These priests and preachers and the lawmakers of these Red states have only one agenda : To increase the number of voters in their states so that they can keep their states Red forever.
And they do that while applying their power to disenfranchise anyone who try to destroy the purity of their race: the Blacks and other minorities.
5
Quote says "blue family values" bristle then literally have "children." Sleazy broadbrush slippage trick but transparent.
Institutional Christianity often offers heaven quid pro quo for belief: accept core church tenets and thus avoid hell. The commands, sermons, and parables of Jesus concern behavior, the actual practice of Christ-like attitudes and actions. The unavoidable gap between belief and practice is widened by church leaders seduced by the celebrity of politics. In Matthew 4:8-10, the devil offered secular power to Jesus who declined Satan’s attempted diversion from God’s agenda.
1
I noticed this phenomenon before: Red states have the highest rates of divorce, spouse abuse/domestic violence, alcoholism, drug use, and murder rates. What they say and what they do is so very far apart.
9
Even the red states have more than 45% citizens voting blue.
You know, sexual maturity occurs at a young age, although it takes mental and emotional faculties and judgment awhile to catch up.
Perhaps allowing a season of sexual experimentation, approached with proper protections and common-sense care, is part of what makes for a lack of teen pregnancy and more stable marriages entered into at later ages?
Perhaps there's a problem with insisting that raging young hormones MUST go with marriage or simply be dammed up.
Perhaps it simply doesn't work very well to do it that way?
5
Adolescents also drink and use drugs. Are we down with that?
You cited highly Mormon Utah as an outlier in behavior, but I seem to remember reading they have a very high consumption rate of pornography.
Here is a link in the Deseret News
https://www.deseretnews.com/article/705288350/Utah-No-1-in-online-porn-s...
3
"Utah's No. 1 ranking doesn't surprise Freestone, who works with sex offenders at his Comprehensive Treatment Clinic. Freestone has done searches on Google Trends, typing in words ranging from "swimsuits" to "naked girls," and found that Utah ranked No. 1 or 2 in most searches. A similar exercise by Deseret News reporter Lee Davidson in 2007 found that Utahns were more prone to search for words like "topless" and "pornography" (as well as "Jesus" and "home storage").
Does it make me a bad person that I burst out laughing when I read the final phrase? I don't care. Reads like something straight out of the "Book of the SubGenius". Great get.
1
And when I think of all the “undereducated” and vulnerable teens that Betsy DeVos and her corporate henchmen are hoping to churn out from her “Charter Madrassas” as she puts in place her program “to advance God’s kingdom” in red and blue states, I despair for this country's future.
7
Liberals aren't wary of strict moral codes; just ridiculous, judgmental, and as we can see from your stats, hypocritical ones. The red states seem to rely on Biblical fear, not rational reasoning, to instill values. You don't have sex at 14 because you want a decent future, not because the Bible says no until marriage (at 16!). And I think that may be why it backfires.
The Red States project all their demons onto the Blue States, then rail against how Liberalism is the Doom of Democracy. Right Wing media, Trump, they are all about projection.
3
Sex facts aside, Blue State people and Blue State governments by and large also follow the practice and breadth of Christ's teachings much more closely than what goes on in the Reds.
10
Unwanted children can be easily traumatised. It has been postulated that part of the reduction in U.S. crime rates is due to easy access to birth control and abortion. Guess which states have the highest violent crime rates?
2
No surprises here: it's the normal, expected correlation between religious commitment and good morals — inverse.
1
The prudes are always the prurient.
Forbidden fruit is always more attractive.
2
The ignorance of the faithful is horrifying.
2
This column is a sad joke. Really, California and New York are paragons of "family values"? That is a sick joke.
1
And Caldornia’s government schools are on a pare with those in the red states. So are New Tork City’s for that matter.
Define family values and then show the stats that prove other states are upholding those values more. "Paragon" suggests perfection is possible. The red states are doing such a bad job of upholding family values that one can say CA and NY are doing *better*--that's the argument being made. Stick with the conversation, JOK.
I agree. My friend had three sons in a prestigious private school in Manhattan and many of the parents were divorced and living with their partners. What kind of example does this show their children? Not a very good one but they do not care.
I have lived in New York for years and it is not the moral capital of the world. They take a do what you want mentality and criticize those who do not follow their example. They are hopeless and hypocrites. They are far too liberal for my blood and I do not mind calling them out on this.
I have to wonder does the prolific moralizer, Kristof, realize or understand that some conservative folk live in "Blue" states and some "progressives" live in "Red" states? Simplistic editorials like Kristof's are less than worthless.
3
Actually living " family values" is tougher than preaching them....who knew?
7
Mr, Krostof, I have unbounded respect for you as an honest journalist and an advocate...for women particularly. And this is a great article. But I must take e exception to your 2nd paragraph where you throw in Al Franken with Harvey Weinstein and Louis C.K. - in my opinion probably to show "balance". Al Franken's "scandal" comes nowhere near to the other two...unless dozens of women come out about some sexual harassment from him....he does not appear to be a predator, but did something that countless men do all the time - not excusing his actions with this woman, but gives us a break here...have some proportionality!
I'm 84 years old, have worked during all of my adult working life, plus a few summers as a teen-ager, so I'm not naive!
This whole "speaking out" thing is taking publicity when we should be focusing on the tax bill, nuclear weapons, Trump's own accusators..!!
As far as Roy Moore is concerned, in my opinion, his most recent actions of defying the law while an Alabama Supreme Court justice far outweighs his "Bama-style dating" decades ago.
6
Teen pregnancy, lower educational achievement and early marriage all lead to increased poverty, anger, bitterness against those who are "different"; meaning, in part, the better educated who are more able to adapt to a changing technological world; people who are likely to have a wider and more informed world view. Better education brings greater understanding and appreciation of the wider world outside the confines of the town, the county and the particular religious doctrine. It's "harder to keep 'em down on the farm once they have seen paree", or London or Costa Rica or Africa. The root of the damaged American dream passed on to children in red states is "Don't do it!"; while in blue states that is more likely followed by, "But if you do - use a condom".
2
Your are entirely correct! It is not just, or even primarily, Conservative vs. Liberal. It is Planners vs. Drifters: please see Isabel Sawhill's "Generation Unbound." The solution for everything from reducing the cost of social programs to better outcomes for children is the promulgation of LARC (long-acting-reversible-contraception). Planned Parenthood should be bruiting this, but our leadership is trapped in Fichte's "state-of-perfected-sinfullness." Touting benefits for children and society, vs. "my rights," is just not on their radar. You could help?????
Family values? Nick, you're daft. The nation's values are shattered. Decades of deterioration are evident. It matters not where. Politics: Clinton Inc. is no better than Trump Inc. The future: Teens today are a mess. Faculty weak and very troubled. Tell us about the things that are working, Nick, stop spinning about the parties. Both are sick
All these labels are useless; red, blue, white, black, right, left, Christian......other.....
Far too often, the very idea of a club or society attracts predators who pray on the very ideals of those societies or clubs, and hide behind the facade that they represent, thus making the labels obsolete from the get-go.
Like Spam, eggs, beans, eggs, Spam and Spam.....without the Spam.
A college professor from years ago told me that his wife had done extensive research into public records left by early Puritans. Finding less than nine months time lapsing between marriage and birth was a very common phenomenon. The more forbidden the fruit, the greater the temptation. Studies have been conducted indicating that people who sample a bit of the taboo in their younger days generally appear to be healthier and happier than those who don't. Without the taboos against gay orientation, the poor young man who just had to resign his position from DHS for having sex in his office with another man, would have been free to be gay and enter a healthy relationship where sex is experienced in a more appropriate setting.
1
To “combine public tolerance with private discipline” is not “hypocrisy”. Hypocrisy is not living what you preach. If you don’t preach, you can’t be a hypocrite. Public _tolerance_ of something is not the same as preaching its virtues. If I tolerate pot users but abstain from pot myself, I’m a hypocrite?? Come on!
3
My sense is that many of the evangelical conservative voters are people who made mistakes earlier in their lives and found religion as a means of atonement. Society in general looks at deadbeat dads, single moms, and broken families in a negative light, but churches are willing to work with people who are "broken" as long as those folks adopt a new outlook on life. A case in point: our previous two Presidents (GWBush and Obama) both acknowledged making mistakes in their youth and explained how and why they changed their ways.
1
Last year, it was Clinton’s foolish remarks about the “basket of deplorables” probably cost her (and us) the election. It appears that Mr. Kristof is making the same mistake with this article. Kristof plays a “moral values” tune when it applies to predominantly white populations. Would he apply this “family values” judgment upon largely non-white populations? I don’t think so. This double standard and hypocrisy will only help make “red states” even more “red” - and resentful. Please use your column to advocate more educational and economic opportunities for everyone? Please advocate the greater availability of contraceptives for all? Please stop selectively judging people.
1
Agree with your point, however, at the beginning when you lumped my Senator, Al Franken, with Harvey Weinstien and LCK, you almost lost me.
I have noticed this in my professional travels that involved legal work. Invariably, the number of multiple marriages, and children born out of wedlock in the south were significantly greater than the numbers in the north.
2
It has always been easier to see the hypocrisy in others than in our selves.
2
I went to high school in Connecticut. I don’t think these stats are correct.
1
Did you also go to HS in red states? It is the relative differences, not the absolute numbers. My key take-away:
So the deeper problem seems to be the political choices that conservatives make, underinvesting in public education and social services (including contraception). This underinvestment leaves red states poorer and less educated — and thus prone to a fraying of the social fabric.
So let’s drop the wars over family values. Liberals and conservatives alike don’t want kids pregnant at 16, and we almost all seek committed marriages that last. It’s worth noting that Bible-thumping blowhards like Roy Moore don’t help achieve those values, while investments in education and family planning do
2
The funniest part of your piece, Nick, is that you aim to convince these people with evidence they outright reject, because it’s published by academic elites!!
2
a lot of what you are comparing is the contrast between poorer, more rural, and less educated places, ruled by religion... and wealthier, more urban, more educated places ruled by something more like self interest trying to appear as reason.
superstition v science.
remember, superstition is basically free, while science is increasingly expensive.
guess who falls for the GOP line most frequently?
2
Please forward this piece to David Brooks. I’m tired of reading that northeastern liberal views are the root cause of the breakdown in the American family. Or is this just another set of data to be ignored?
3
bonjour de Paris. We at the Agricultural Research Institute feared the moment we would face our bio-metrician before publishing. We would always be blasted. Lucky you who did not have to obey by the first rule of bio-metrics, "correlation is not causation". Which in incidentally does not mean that you are wrong, simply that your were not Perry Mason "the judge does not sustain your argument". Merci de votre patience
A well-educated electorate usually makes the right choices. An uneducated electorate doesn't. The GOP relies on the latter to keep buying the same old snake oil it always sells about tax cuts and health care, and it outdid itself this time by securing the election of an ignorant dotard to the highest office in our land. I find it significant that this dotard and his Republican enablers continue their efforts to dumb down the electorate, appointing an Education Secretary who is against the very idea of higher education and placing further curbs on incentives for the college bound -- everything from Pell grants to elimination of tax deducations for college loan interest and tuition waivers.
142
Christy: so true! The Republican have constantly attacked the value of education, at least since the time of Saint Reagan, by sneering at the "intellectual elites". Education is the natural enemy of the overall Republican agenda to reward the wealthiest, at the expense of everybody else. And college education is the one thing that would have the biggest impact in elevating the standard of living for the average citizen in those red states. It is like a terribly sick relationship: the Republicans profess love for those hard working, blue collar, middle-Americans, but abuse them at every turn.
3
It's patriarchy, plain and simple. Life is hard, sometimes stupefying and meaningless. This desolation is to be avoided at all costs. Compliance with the wishes of he big daddy in the sky and the silver back on the ground will provide the security we never knew but was our birthright. It's a giant re-enactment fantasy where we, as Freud said, are trying to get it right.
We lost true community - the agape that arises in egalitarian relationships, when we traded it for hierarchies of power. Christ tried to change it back from the Abrahamic child sacrifice loyalty test to agape, the undying echo of Eden before the fratricide of Abel made way for the industrialization of land and our estrangement from it and each other.
The South is yearning for fellowship in leadership. It is a contradiction that only increases their misery and self soothing.
9
Agape/caritas originally had much less to do with loving your neighbor and much more to do with loving your God.
2
This dysfunctional marriage between progressives and regressives has gone on long enough. Mr. Trump and his 35%, McConnell and Ryan supporters, should all find a geographic territory of their own (might Alabama, Mississippi, and Texas be big enough?), build a wall around themselves, moralize to their heart's content, deconstruct their government until it fully serves its wealthy corporate owners, and let the rest of American politics heal from its current brush with fascism and lunacy.
25
I agree with most of the article but really winced seeking AL Franklin included with the names of Harvey Weinstein and Louis C. K. Although I find his behavior disturbing, Franklin's behavior is hardly on the same level as the far more serious actions committed by an alleged serial sexual predator and public exposer. This plays into the hands of those less concerned with accurate and serious reporting of national issues.
25
I completely agree. This is sloppy and counterproductive journalism by a usually careful writer. Franken's inclusion is part of the "liberal" media's overwhelming urge to prove that they're not biased -- even when facts and ethics dictate they SHOULD be -- thereby supporting the false equivalencies spouted by Fox News. ("We have Moore; they have Franken . . . Same thing.") Nonsense.
2
If this type of analysis and thinking were true, then we could conclude that Chicago, with its most restrictive gun laws, promotes more murder and crime.
2
... but hey, wait a second.
Does no one understand the meaning of the word "hypocrisy" anymore? It is not hypocrisy to simultaneously value being self-disciplined and non-judgmental.
13
No, actually not. One makes their own choices in life, but can also respect another's choices- as long as they don't hurt someone else.
Actually, Hugh, I think it IS hypocritical. If both parties/regions value committed relationships, families, and postponing pregnancy (the good news in Kristof's article), why do liberals insist on public devotion only to "non-judgmental diversity" of values, and late-term abortion of healthy infants? The stances adopted by the Dems in the 80s have made them/us a permanent minority. We insult other people by proclaiming their religious and moral codes stupid, insisting that all religions are dumb and dangerous, and sexual freedom is the most precious value we cam imagine. I'd LIKE to think that's all for show and we don't really believe it, but I'm not so sure. What I do know is that it's hard to fight common sense, and as long as we insist on our current weird priorities and avoid the humane and logical values we used to believe in (wars are bad and should be avoided; violence is bad; love should involve commitment; equality of opportunity is the only promising basis for a good society, and families --though they are sometimes pathological and that requires social/political remedy-- are still probably the best arrangement for raising children), we won't be elected to govern the country.
Agreed Mr. Kristof! “So let’s drop the wars over family values.” I also would add that we drop the liberal conservative stuff from any religious narrative. Better yet, let’s just get back to separation between church and state as Jesus would not be affiliated with either party and encouraged us to be no respect of persons. How Bow Dah?
5
perhaps the major distinction is between words and actions: red states talk about it, blue state act upon it with social programs and education and contraception
11
The basic idea behind Progressive-ism is that if you are not moving forward, you're falling back. Simply because things fall apart, systems become too complex. It's called "entropy" and it's just a fact of life on planet earth.
And that's just what happened in our Red states.
But we Blue state types shouldn't be so smug. Our thing is falling apart, too.
6
May I add welcoming the stranger (refugees needing an asylum) as another Christian value I see in blue states that I don't see in Trumpland.
12
Thought you Blue Islanders were opposed to melding religion and state?
1
Hopping from partner to partner while proclaiming every one of them 'the love of my life', are not the family values you think of. Sleeping around for fun and thinking you shouldn't bear the consequences when you get pregnant or impregnate someone, aren't those family values either.
The most hypocritical of them all are the Bible belt so-called Christians. I could swear I have never seen any of them in less than $3000.00 suits or $500.00 Cashmere sweaters among their preachers.
And I think the reason they are so afraid of immigrants is that they (the immigrants) are mostly devout within their own religions, be it Moslem, Buddhism, Christianity, or Judaism, mostly leaning heavily toward true democracy due to the constraints imposed upon their lives in their own countries.
Allow immigrants to settle in the Red states and quite likely the State will turn blue.
7
In addition, it was fascinating that Roy Moore did not blame Democrats for his current problems, he blamed Republicans. Roy knows who to blame for viscous political attacks (deserved or not). Not just family values have been washed out of the Republican party but civility (see attack ads back to 1988), kindness (see ACA and the tax bills) and tolerance (see Trump on Charlottesville) have also been destroyed. Trump is just the turbocharger on an engine that Barry Goldwater revved up in 1964. When you say conservative but mean segregationist, you may flip the South to the Republican Party but you make lying to the People and dividing the People central to your party. That is, you get what we've got.
5
"Yet it’s complicated, and there is one religious group that is extremely good at living conservative family values: Mormons."
You forgot about Orthodox Jews, who are also extremely good at living conservative family values. If you look at the New York City voting map, they overwhelmingly voted for Trump.
4
It is sad and destructive that you lump Harvey Weinstein, Louis C.K. and Al Franken together. At this moment of mass hysteria many people are overreacting like that but I wish you had more sense. Weinstein is a rapist, Louis practiced indecent exposure, and Franken posed one time with his hands on a sleeping woman's breast. Since the picture was made public it's obvious he thought it wasn't a big thing. He may have been wrong about that but he is a good man and certainly doesn't deserve to lose his seat because of it, which seems possible.
Abuse and harassment of women has been continuing too long and now that the topic has surfaced many women want maximal revenge. This is the wrong approach. Our goal should be to make a just peace between the sexes.
Blood will have blood. Those who seek maximal punishment now will continue the conflict. Instead, let's end it.
6
Republicans tend congregate in rural areas. Go on a date in the country, and what is there to do? Drink and have sex, or go for a drive and have sex.
Democrats tend to congregate in cities. Their teenage children are use to having many options for entertainment, especially when dating. May even go on dates while using public transportation. Ever try to get lucky on a bus?
5
The study that Nicholas Kristof refers to reveals disparities in sexual behavior among racial and ethnic groups, not between Republican and Democrats. According to the study, “Non-Hispanic black students (42%) were significantly more likely to be more sexually active compared to Latino (35%) and non-Hispanic black students (32%).” It also shows the teen birth rate was 32% for black teens, 35% for Hispanic teens, and 16%$ for white teens. States in which blacks and Hispanics make up a larger portion of the population trend to have more sexually active teens. Since blacks and Hispanics tend to vote overwhelmingly Democratic, one might argue Democrats are “less Christian” than whites, but that would be absurd.
2
"So let’s drop the wars over family values." What?
What exactly does that mean? Women must surrender to fundamentalists' demands about reproductive freedom, or lack thereof? No abortions even for women (and girls) impregnated via rape? We should surrender as well to this? Is this what that means?
Does it mean allowing "creationism" to be taught in public schools as an assumed balance to the theory of evolution? We should surrender to that? Does it mean the GLBT community must comport itself to some fundamentalist view about "proper" sexuality? Is this what that means?
If anything best distinguishes the blue states from the red it is in the proportion of taxes they pay relative to their populations, if not in absolute numbers. The best indicator to my mind of "family values,” or just plain old human values, is how much you are willing to help your fellow man. Nothing says it better than the money you spend for that. Blue states hit the ball out of the park while red states strike out. The red take more than they give.
If anyone is gloating, it is the red states who know how they're scamming those of us in the blue. And if there’s any hypocrisy it is on them, not on us. So let’s drop the pretense and conceit that we can “drop the wars.” The struggle will continue well past our current era over whose values will prevail. The tide of human history is toward justice and that is never won cheaply.
13
Red state conservative politicians often say that blue state liberal "elites" hate religion. They say that to folks who don't know any better hoping that the idea that blue state liberals are heathens who hate the Bible will instill fear and hatred. It's a form of ethnocentricity bred of contempt and lack of understanding stoked by people who have a stake in keeping folks uninformed and suspicious of people who don't meet their limited political views, and it has led to the current climate of loathing between liberals and conservatives. We ordinary folks (non-politicians) simply need to educate ourselves about those with whom we disagree and learn to sort out the myth from the truth.
2
The educated elite Republicans with money and political power have created a feudalistic society for themselves. They are the Aristocrats, the lords, the barons and the working class and poor Republican voters are the serfs.
The terms, "Family Values", "Second Amendment rights", "Religious Persecution" and racists dog whistles (Make America Great Again) keep the serfs in line through fear and panic.
Religion is an Opium for the poor and the "Family Values" Conservatives are the biggest drug dealers in the country.
Conservatism will always be an exercise in Hypocrisy but worse when comes wrapped in God and Country.
7
My personal, thoroughly unscientific, observation is that the number of giant crosses you as you drive along the interstate in the south and midwest seems to correlate with the number of giant sex shops and "gentleman's clubs" Furthermore a concentration of large numbers of these establishments seems to invariably indicate the presence of a Bible college or evangelical seminary.
Whether this is a sign of the neverending battle between Jesus and Satan or just good old fashioned hypocrisy is beyond this simple traveler's paygrade
4
The Times Square area used to be filled with an abundance of sex shops until the Republicans took office in New York City. You could not walk down those streets due to the prevalence of crime and drugs In those areas. Now they are relatively few to be found in the city and it is once again safe for tourists and families to frequent these places.
1
Speaking of values, is it the red states or blue states that want to take healthcare away from kids? Why hasn't the CHIP program been renewed?
4
While harboring major misgivings about Mormon theology, I hold great admiration for the reverence and structure of family values they not merely preach but "religiously" (in all senses) practice. And, I would include, their related, very pragmatic concern for the welfare of others. I say this as I watch the health insurance mandate underpinning of Mitt Romney's Massachussett's successful precursor to Obamacare being knocked out from beneath the ACA by "Con/Con-Christs" (my name for conservative supposed Christians) serving who or what exactly in Congress.
People, including politicians, talk the most about the problems that are closest to home. They know those problems best. They suspect others of being like them and having those same problems. People who lie are more likely to suspect others of lying. Predators suspect others of being predators. This is consistent with people in red states talking and worrying about sexual behavior, worrying about people living off welfare. They are talking about problems that they need to talk about.
2
So religious conservatives marry early, are more likely to get divorce, less likely to go to college, and here's the kicker, are disproportionately poor.
Sounds like religion is the opiate of the masses in red states.
4
The fake Christian message sold by conservatives is devoid of the teachings of Jesus. Republican conservatism fails to build a more moral society wherever tried. Utah with extremely strong social networks works.
3
An excellent, timely column. Many commenters offer additional support for Nick's review of 'red' vs 'blue' and how it affects the different culture within the US. Faith based religion plays a big part in creating the schism. Education, or the lack of, plays an equally big part.
Nancy Parker below: "The classes filled with college bound kids, the college credit courses - did not have this pervasive problem. In my 5 years there, only one of those girls got pregnant."
I always think of exceptions to the education and intelligence affects on us though, and my favorite is Ted Cruz. Obviously intelligent and highly educated but he has absolutely no moral grounding. It is as if he has not participated in the evolution of the species, or in the culture he is part of.
But, the point of the general effect a good education plays in our culture is valid. Look at the uninformed, willfully ignorant who believe that Hillary should be impeached. Look at Roy Moore. And, my first thought when Gov Ivey said she supported Roy was "maybe she understands the pull toward underage girls". Wicked.
1
Liberal refusal to talk realistically about sex and relationships dates back to the 60s, when feminists were fighting for sexual freedom above all. Fighting for personal power and the social good looks very different from freedom alone. Time for new talking points. Thanks NK.
Living in New Hampshire, and active on child welfare issues, I think you need to add underfunding and disregard for protection of at risk children and minimum support for the foster care system. With an extremely high rate of Opioid addiction of parents the problems are spiraling out of control. Conservative state governments espouse family values while demonstrating they don't really value families.
Lawrence Shulman
1
Republicans talk about helping the lower and middle class while Democrats actually do help the lower and middle class.
3
Not a very nuanced article, really. These attempts to draw lines around party tell very little. First, why limit this discussion to sexual behavior? Is that somehow the leading indicator of one's religious beliefs? Catholics everywhere have about the same rate of divorce and use of birth control as society in general. Most still sincerely claim to be Catholic. Most of the states that are mentioned are recent arrivals to the Republican party, but the problems identified here go back generations. West Virginia, it is worth noting, never voted against the biggest pork barrel politician in the senate's history, a democrat. I also find it odd that premarital sex is common to both in this argument, but not a moral problem unless it results in pregnancy at a certain age. This is not exactly a defense of self-mastery and delaying gratification. You will also find blue states have a higher charitable giving rate. They are also self-congratulatory about that, even as they profit from white collar pay that is based on the work and resources we all possess, while they, through zoning, tax policy, and filters like elite schools admissions, monopolize and perpetuate privilege. If poverty is what drives these poor behaviors, then blue state behaviors on the whole are much more suspect and self-serving. Instead of sex being the great measure of family values, we might reconsider what Christ taught about the wealthy reaching heaven.
6
Why even consider, in the first place, the 'teachings' of a fictional character.
P.S. Re your 'look back' to problems dating to the days when Southern states (and West Virginia and Indiana, and our country's "middle earth") were "Democrat" states.....remember that when those problems you reference 'began' -- before the republicans "Southern Strategy" -- all of those states' "Democrats" were today's republicans -- ever so dishonorably refusing for 100 years to vote for "The Party of Lincoln" -- the man, to those there permitted suffrage, the "Great Emancipator" thus reviled.
First of all, Indiana has been voting republican safely, with few exceptions, since Lincoln. Jesus was not fictional. You can believe what you want about his divinity, but to claim him to be a fiction is ridiculous. How do you explain all the red states west of the Mississippi? This article's reasoning, and yours, shows a lot of confirmation bias and self-aggrandizing. Blue/red is a statistical game, one that ignores that the difference is often just one percentage point. I wouldn't be too quick to exonerate the Democrats for their past, especially since their racism extends right into the present. Democrats have run big cities in this country and still do. They are the ones who segregated housing and limited opportunity to access wealth through equity in good homes and neighborhoods for Africa-Americans. A stroll through Manhattan gives one incontrovertible prima facie evidence of blue state racism.
3
Enlightenment versus ignorance; reason versus faith; function versus dysfunction; tolerance versus prejudice: these words describe the divide in our country's current "cold" civil war. The greed and incompetence of the GOP, who brazenly serve red meat to the red states with no regard for truth or consequences, leaves me less than hopeful about our country's future.
8
I have been awakened the frightening reality that so many people remain to easily lead by the thunder and wrath of religious doctrine.
The conscious ignorance of such a population of people that are but a 'part of a whole', says nothing about the conscious character of the mind as a whole.
Mr. Rogers and your posse of diehards;
"Whenever morality is based on theology, whenever a right is made dependent on divine authority, the most immoral, unjust, infamous things can be justified and established."
Emily Dickinson
2
As the parent of and 18yo college man and a 15yo young woman I can tell you that sex, birth control and consequences are a part of every day conversations.
Life is a set of choices and if you want stability and flexibility then you need to make good choices so that you achieve the education and
Skill levels that will let you lead that life and that includes choosing a partner that supports your goals.
Use a condom, Every time, Or do something else
Choose you - every day and every time
2
You don't tell someone who is not going fast to slow down.
Red states are the most vocal on these issues because those states have the most problems.
If you want your children to mature into adults, you have to start treating them like adults to the extent their relative age and maturity allows. This is not to say you should rush to end the blissful innocence of childhood, but waiting until they are grown to allow them even a bite of an apple from the tree of knowledge, is a recipe for disaster. Discipline is hard won. Perhaps instead of thumping those bibles, our red-state cousins ought to read them. The theme is always the same: God lays down the law, people ignore it, and they are drowned, wander the wilderness, visited with pestilence, or turned to salt. At some point, it should become obvious that moral imperatives without reason are at best ineffective, and at worse, observed as they often are in the breach, the imperative undermines the very rule it seeks to impose.
2
I served as a Parish Nurse for eighteen months. (A Parish Nurse serves in a church)
I never before in my long healthcare career witnessed such cruelty, all in the name of God.
It blew my faith, actually.
2
Kristof doesn't usually fall into the "false equivalency" trap, but there's an egregious example here: saying that it's hypocritical of liberals to preach against strict moral codes while encouraging their children to "simultaneously combine public tolerance with private discipline." There's absolutely no contradiction or hypocrisy involved in this approach- it's a consistent belief that encouraging people to independently think through the consequences of their actions and the effects of those actions on themselves and others will lead to the best outcomes for everyone. That contrasts with the "red" system- preaching a strict, inflexible moral code for oneself and others-a code based on the idea that we're all inherently prone to evil- while secretly indulging in the 'evil ' behavior, feeling guilt and shame about it, and condemning those without power for violating it while excusing those with power. There are examples of liberal hypocrisy- preaching feminism while excusing Bill Clinton's behavior being a prime example- but this isn't one of them.
I served as a Parish Nurse for eighteen months.
I never fathomed the cruelty in the name of God I witnessed. It blew my faith, actually.
2
I'm a little wary of those survey results. We might not actually be answering the intended question. Instead of knowing which high school students are having more sex, we might only know which students are more likely to report having had sex. There's a subtle but important difference. A comparison of pregnancy, birth control, and abortion rates would provide a much more accurate picture. The higher prevalence of teenage birth control along with lower rates of teenage honesty probably accounts for most of the difference in the survey.
That said, I do believe blue states are more likely to have nuclear families. Blue states have more urban centers. Urban centers usually relate to higher educations and higher median incomes. Education and income typically correlates with better family planning. Utah really isn't an exception in this regard. The unusual part about Utah and the Mormons is actually their steadfast political loyalty to socially conservative values. Aside from abortion, marriage, and homosexuality, everything about Mormonism screams a prudish sort of social liberalism. I can only figure the rocky historical relationship between the LDS Church and our federal government plays role.
"...there’s also perhaps a measure of hypocrisy in the blue states. As Cahn and Carbone put it: “Blue family values bristle at restrictions on sexuality, insistence on marriage or the stigmatization of single parents. Their secret, however, is that they encourage their children to simultaneously combine public tolerance with private discipline,"
This is not hypocrisy, Mr. Kristof. That I grant you the freedom to jump off a bridge does not mean I am obligated to jump off the bridge with you. It's the old "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" thing applied to how you live your life.
2
Having lived in both red and blue states I believe the problem starts
with education, more more " the lack of it.
The best thing you can offer your children is the best
education you can afford...that goes for boys and girls. They will than mature with the skills to be independent both in thinking and practice.
When the young lack the skills to be independent ( which appears among females more frequently in red states, as they are raised with the expectation that they are to be wives and mothers!) they seek some one who will provide for them. I am one of 4 girls in my family, no brothers, we were raised to be independent ....marriage was seen as a partnership...not servitude which it often becomes in the southern red states. Raise your daughters to be independent , empower them with education and skill to live independently, do the same for you sons. Education,Education,Education...is the secret ingredient that is available to all....when young people lack it ( girls particularly ) they are left vulnerable and seek out someone to " take care of them".....nothing more than a substitute for their parents. I wish we had a First Lady who was a model for the strength of woman.....not one that appears in servitude . I know that is a little harsh .....but it's what I see.
1
"So let’s drop the wars over family values." There is no such war. What there is is a tacit plan by red-state governments to live on welfare provided by blue states. Keeping sizeable portions of their population poor, under-educated, and under-employed, red states argue for various government programs which are little more than wealth transfers to states which like to posture about the evils of the government and use the influx of federal funds to support middle-class workers, probably disproportionately white. Talk about biting the hand which feeds them! And, given that red states are more numerous than blue states, they control the budget. Otherwise, reform would be instigated by a federal budget which returned no more to programs in the state than the state paid in taxes to the federal government. Time to put the dogs on a leash.
4
Speaking of divorce, the red states and the blue states are like a couple who have been married forever and cannot stand each other. They have been through counseling. They have have even had bouts of physical violence. But they just have irreconcilable differences and those differences are holding each back from attaining 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.' They are a couple bent on bringing the other down.
Perhaps it is time to seek a negotiated settlement, split up the assets, figure out custody issues, and part ways. I live in a red state and realize I would have to move to a blue, but I would like to see the advances the blues states could make without the red states stymieing progressive efforts.
There is no compromise in this relationship anymore. Right now the reds have a narrow window to force long ranging legislation (taxes and healthcare) without blue input. This whipsaw action between blue and red is wasting energy, resources, and just enraging everyone involved. Maybe it's time to say enough.
3
Many years ago, when I was in my twenties, I lived in Texas and, accordingly, dated young woman there. Having come from the NY metropolitan area, naively I was surprised by the number of young women I met who had children, some as many as three, and were already divorced. Almost all such women that I met came from small towns, rural areas, and later migrated to one of the big cities. A common story was that the fifteen year-old girl was dating a seventeen year-old boy, and when the boy graduated high school there was nothing else to do in that rural area but get married (and have children). A year or two later, as the couple matured, they realized their error and parted ways. Picture yourself living in a farming area where the only local town has a population of thirty, certainly under a hundred; what would you do ?
The ultraconservative right's hypocrisy is the direct result of psychological repression. Freud was the first to note that awareness and understanding, rather than repression, is the best way to manage our all too human desires and impulses.
1
It's not hypocrisy not to stigmatize single moms, but to prefer married child-bearing. It's common sense.
Yes, it's easier to raise a kid with two parents, but that's no reason to make life more difficult for those who don't have that advantage.
2
One major variable which Mr. Kristof overlooks is socio-economic status. The red states noted are wealthier in general, and it's quite likely parents from those states are well aware of the lifetime consequences of reckless behavior. While it's easier to cast this as the conventional liberal-conservative divide and please your readers, one suspects more complex and less politically correct factors are at play.
18
Surely you meant that the "blue" states noted are wealthier in general. Otherwise your comment is simply and provably wrong.
2
You may want to check your sources about red states being wealthier. The majority of red states listed here are "taker" states. The feds send more money back to these states than it gets from them.
1
LBN, you are correct. Unmarried women do not become pregnant because of voting practices in their state. Unmarried women do not become pregnant because they don't know that unprotected sex causes pregnancy. Their partners know that unprotected sex causes pregnancy.
There are more complex factors and you are correct: the elephant in the room re the discussion of babies born outside of marriage is not politically correct.
Don Lemon addressed the issue on CNN some time back. Google it.
I don't know what I would do without this forum. Thank you Mr. Kristof for the very informative, no nonsense good columns - as always. And thanks to all the great comments / commentators. It helps me keep my faith in our union. The American Experiment will prevail.
I wish that red state folks would see this sort of information, and reflect on it - but they already have all the answers from Faux News and the church that they need to inform them on how to live.
The good news is that a vibrant economy in the southern cities I encounter has brought in a wave of diversity, innovation, and prosperity that have positively influenced my region in the 35 years since I first arrived here. The spread of these positive influences to rural regions happens slowly, and perhaps, not at all.
The misinformation age has stalled progress in some respects, but I expect favorable winds ahead.
8
I would also be interested to know what the stats are for education level and income in the red vs. blue states that Kristoff discusses. That may have more to do with it than anything.
7
Mormons may be conservative but they strongly believe in education. All of their children are encouraged to go to college. Studies show that those who have some college education are more likely to have stronger family units than those who don't.
Education is key. The question is how do we get these red states to see the value in investing in the education of their children. What's in it for them to keep their population uneducated.
62
Totally agree!
Yes, I researched this, too, and found Blue States generally have higher two-parent family rates and lower divorce rates. Let’s go down the rest of the Red State Family Values checklist and see what else we can learn:
1. Less Religious? Blue States
2. Lower teen-pregnancy rates? Blue States
3. Lower homicide rates? Blue States
4. Lower obesity rates? Blue States
5. Lower crime and drunk driving rates? Blue States
6. Safer driving records? Blue States
7. Better educated? Blue States
8. Higher incomes? Blue States
9. Greater chance of social mobility – and attaining the American Dream? Blue States
10. And which states tend to take greater handouts from Uncle Sam – meaning they take more from the federal government in taxes than they give? Ah, this one goes solid to Red States.
That Texas put down seems to custom-made for our Red States and their decades-long family values sham: “All hat and no cattle.” Or to quote our Red State-embraced but Blue State-vilified Blue State president, SAD!
233
You are better at statistics than most........but you left out two important statistics:
Which groups of women have the most children out of wedlock? (Google Don Lemon CNN out of wedlock births.)
Racial or ethnic group - Percent of births considered "non-marital"
Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders - 17 percent
Non-Hispanic whites - 29 percent Hispanics - 53 percent
American Indian and Native Alaskans - 66 percent
Non-Hispanic blacks - 73 percent
Which states were hardest-hit by legislation (such as NAFTA Clinton 1994) that allowed - even encouraged - companies to move jobs South of the Border and Across the Pacific? California, Michigan, New York, Texas, Ohio, Illinois, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Indiana, Florida, Tennessee, and Georgia. "A large and growing body of research has shown that NAFTA has also contributed to rising income inequality, suppressed real wages for production workers, weakened collective bargaining powers and ability to organize unions, and reduced fringe benefits." Thanks, Bill Clinton 1994!
http://www.epi.org/publication/briefingpapers_nafta01_impactstates/
2
Although not overtly stated in our constitution and law, one of the major hallmarks and frankly achievements of the western civilization compared to a community like say southern Egypt where my grandmam hails from, is the freedom to have consensual sex without anyone killing you or even saying a boo about it, even if your partner is a complete stranger you've met this morning and not for the purpose of any committed relationship;
now the irony is that the United States for a variety of reasons has been heading in the opposite direction for a long time; for example: family values as understood in a place like say Finland is how a family could succeed once a couple decide to become a family vs in the US the narrative amounts to oppressive domination of family values even on excess, as therapists keep convincing Americans in decades long unhappy relationships that they're still in live.. Many Americans now feel that is, being married is good but being single is bad (...), only (loving) your wife is noble, but sex with multiple partner is, not only disgusting but deserves punishment!! not much different from the sharia law that I ran away from; I'm not sure that's a picture of a happy or even healthy society..
15
Everything that Republicans do vs. say is hypocritical, so none of this surprises me.
36
Maybe the Red States preach traditional morality precisely because they are aware of the consequences of its demise.
10
traditional morality was selling your daughter to someone you chose with either paying with a dowry or receiving some form of payment or services depending upon one's rank within the community. tm was the wife obeying the husband without protest. tm was believing the group think or expulsion
We can stand to see these values disappera
I am beginning to think that conservatives are actually very invested in keeping a large segment of the population ignorant and living in poverty. It must be serving their purposes otherwise they would begin investing in people.
87
Part of the red state problem is due to education. Red states have fewer people with college degrees. This translates to more poverty. Evangelicalism, which is popular in the South, does little to prevent children having children, again perpetuating the cycle. Even the “morality” of some of these “ministers of God” is shocking. They approve of deviant behavior so that their favored party can win. Red states need better leadership at the top, better education and a return to real morals, not the partisan ones they haul out at election time.
31
“Even the “morality” of some of these “ministers of God” is shocking.“ So painful but true. One of my former Pastors whom I loved dearly was a fantastic preacher. His best sermons were about adultery and the importance of family. He could teach and preach the Bible so well. Unfortunately, he got his mistress pregnant(very shocking) divorced his wife and told the congregation his marriage was not ordained and his mistress was his soul mate to justify his actions. Many of us were heartbroken for our church, his lovely 1st wife and children. He later went on to marry the mistress, but after leaving our church for another once he remarried, his ministry was never the same. When I returned to SC in August for a funeral I saw him there being very flirtatious with another woman who was not his 2nd wife. From that brief observation at the funeral I pinched myself for not seeing this when he was our Pastor. There are many pastors who are very immoral. They can preach, but they sure don’t practice it and although the 2nd wife was wrong too for sleeping with our married Pastor, I felt pain for her in August because she is now in the same boat as our former First Lady. There is no such thing as a better woman with pastors who are heaters but not doers of the Word.
I'm from a family of five siblings, four with liberal leanings and one a Trump supporter. The only one of us who is divorced is, coincidentally, the only one who is adamantly anti-same sex marriage. He has also smoked pot everyday of his adult life, yet takes great pride in having voted against California's recreational marijuana ballot initiative. From my perspective, the only political trends Conservatives consistently support is hypocrisy.
76
“And yet, for all its size and all its wealth and all the “progress” it babbles of, it is almost as sterile, artistically, intellectually, culturally, as the Sahara Desert. There are single acres in Europe that house more first-rate men than all the states south of the Potomac; there are probably single square miles in America. If the whole of the late Confederacy were to be engulfed by a tidal wave tomorrow, the effect upon the civilized minority of men in the world would be but little greater than that of a flood on the Yang-tse-kiang. It would be impossible in all history to match so complete a drying-up of a civilization.”
H.L. Mencken writing on the American South in “The Sahara of the Bozart” in 1917.
True then and still in its politics overwhelmingly true today.
25
Elephants have more "family values" than the current crop of Republicans.
37
It's so much easier to buy liquor and drive by "gentleman's" clubs when driving in the South versus the Northeast and California and the Northwest. Much easier to feel "family friendly" right there.
12
Is it any surprise that in regions where children have children, the culture suffers? The Bible Thumpers are part of a retrogressive movement wrapped in self righteous stupidity and anger that is leading to the dumbing of America.
The chances of a young person "pulling herself up by the bootstraps" after having a teen pregnancy (just like her mom and grandmom, perhaps) are small at best. You'll find exceptional stories of success, of course. Read "Hillbilly Elegy" to become educated to a culture, be inspired by the power of mentorship and ultimately be depressed by the general hopelessness guided by pompous and ignorant preachers. Then there are the thugs and the drugs.
There is nothing in the Bible that says we have to be stupid. But many Evangelicals have become proficient at framing life in the most simplistic and silly terms. The result is the decline of a nation. Our capital now hosts "The Museum of the Bible". It is presented as if it were legitimate history. Of course, it is nothing more than a sophisticated propaganda machine created by the folks who bring you teen pregnancy and every shade of intolerance.
When we worship snippets of Bible talk more than science, reason and a general sense of real love and tolerance, we reveal our dysfunction as a species.
Arrogant Bible Thumpers are removing the underpinnings of decades of social progress. Resist.
51
I always say I love the South. The only drawback is that it is filled with southerners!
14
Just like the only thing wrong with is the population that professes to practicing it.
Part of this is the history of bad education and slavery encouraging people to not require realism or to inspect the limits of metaphors. Part of it is sloppy love.
2
The inconvenient truth to Kristoff's column is that the rates of social pathologies are higher for blacks than for whites. Blue states are more white than red states. Evangelicals are more likely to divorce because they are also more likely to get married. Which is better failure after trying or not trying at all?
8
It is far better to not marry than to marry unwisely, particularly if children become part of the picture.
1
Well, more likely to get married young, and more likely to marry because of unplanned pregnancy owing to unprotected sex.
Coverage for birth control would certainly improve outcomes for both black and white women.
Issue seems to be conservatives do not buy mirror fir themselves as well as their family. And off-course do not seek multiple opinions for most important things in life.
1
Eleven months into the Trump presidency alongside a Republican-controlled Congress, Americans are realizing that the consequences of a Republican-dominated federal government go far beyond the daily headlines about Trump’s latest Tweets, tax reform, and even the Muellar investigation. We now know that Trump’s Republicans are waging a war against our basic moral and democratic values and common human decency. The Roy Moore fiasco has only served to reveal the extent of the Republican rot. Alarmingly, mainstream Christianity has so far abdicated its responsibility to take a stand on the profound moral choices we now face.
Thank heaven people like Kristoff are speaking out more forcefully. He was joined recently by conservative columnist Michael Gerson, whose article about Republican politics being untethered from morality and religion aptly summarizes Trump's impact. Jim Wallis’ "A year into Trump’s presidency, Christians are facing a spiritual reckoning" is also excellent. And, of course, the current master work on the growing divide among American classes is Charles Murray’s 2012 book “Coming Apart: The State of White America, 1960-2010,” an exhaustive study of census data that showed a decline in marriage and an unprecedented increase in nonmarital births among white working class/blue collar Americans. Collectively, these reviews reveal massive delusion and hypocrisy in the Republican claim of being the protectors of family values.
24
Perhaps an Evangelical Christian will be the lucky individual to win-a-trip. In addition to seeing a world most people will never experience, the winner will spend time with Mr Kristoff and hear hard facts about a US that he/she is blind to. If the winner is female I hope she's not 17, unmarried, pregnant and won't be able to go. And if the winner is male, I hope that he's not looking to escape a shotgun wedding.
6
Religion doesn't make you a moral person, although a little guidance is never a bad thing. What religion does do is force you to hide your human impulses instead of being informed about them to learn to manage them. After a life long of living in secret with no true guidance other than fear of being outcast, one learns instead how to indulge in their lifestyle with secrecy.
11
Don't draw individual-level conclusions about motivation and behavior from aggregate-level data. This is taught in all basic statistics courses. Apparently not in journalism school, though.
5
Did he draw individual-level conclusions? I just re-read the article, and all I saw were statistical analysis and reasonable conclusions.
"People in blue states don’t trumpet these family values but often seem to do a better job living them."
To make this claim, and others like it, you'd have to have survey or experimental evidence demonstrating an actual link between the behaviors and values that the author is trying to measure. AND you'd have to show that the relationship was not explained away by other differences between the individuals involved, such as education level, income, race, etc.
A minority (38%) of people in Alabama are white evangelicals. Only a slightly smaller percentage percentage (34%) of people from New York are Catholic (https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2015/02/26/the-religious....
Both of these groups are known for opposition to birth control, abortion, and divorce. So it's a stretch to conclude that it's "liberalism" on family values rather than some other factor that explains the differences in teen births and divorce between Alabama and New York.
Since we know for sure that education and income strongly affect the likelihood of teen birth and divorce, it's far more likely that the social class variants among the states explain the differences.
1
Aside from lack of access to contraception and sex education, there is one big characteristic that underlays much of red state morals and policy dividing red from blue that drives the poverty and broken families . It's the use of fear and ostracism both at home and publicly.
It is human nature to try to throw off such a yoke and if broken to not so much submit as cower dividing people into tyrants and doormats, neither of which is a particularly healthy psychological foundation for raising a family or even being a good employee or management. Teens especially are trying to find out where they can live with themselves in such a harsh psychological terrain and find equally harsh answers that end up with no good for anyone.
Combined with the authoritarian stance of red state leadership from the homestead on up to statehouses, all around, it's a deadly cocktail of hatred, self-degradation hitched up to reactionary defiance that is the sole weapon of the young, poor and uneducated.
The right has learned that this cocktail wins them votes, but utterly failed to observe the long-term costs that now are coming back to bite them on the tousshie--and that only because a critical number of poor, young and ignorant are white and harder to ignore than when they can be dismissed for being of color.
2
“So the deeper problem seems to be the political choices that conservatives make, underinvesting in public education and social services (including contraception).”
Demagogues mask the above under a banner of “family values” to promote an ongoing “culture war” centered on selective misapplication of religious texts. Y
But do they take credit, even partial credit, fo the resulting debacle about whose wedding cake is baked and which bathroom to use while children have children they cannot support much less educate. Restart.
And the shibboleth that liberals and progressives are bent in promoting a culture war against Christianity endures.
6
It is ironic that Al Franken is the liberal outed for being a pig on occasion. To begin with, unlike Judge Moore, whose agenda appears to be mostly for show (after all, the poor can't eat a marble Ten Commandments) - Franken appears to be a very serious legislator whose works very hard to bring the limited good he can with a conservative congress. But then we have the difference in the story - Franken's was an event that occurred on a USO tour and perhaps a one off event. But Moore appears to have made his offense a regular occurance.
37
I've lived in many states in the US, both blue and red. But moving to red-state Oklahoma nearly 2 decades ago was a shock. I have never seen so many shot-gun marriages, multiple divorces (4+), and derailed careers for the young--and so much sexual hypocrisy, on all levels, to go along with it. The lack of public school sex education is certainly a part of it, as well as the lack of education in general. Our state legislature is so loath to raise some corporate tax rates that our schools are suffering; some schools are holding classes only 4 days a week. That exacerbates another problem for young people here: not enough constructive activities in their free time, outside of athletics, which not everybody participates in. Certainly preachers fulminate about staying "pure" before marriage, but the result seems to be that when the moment of truth comes, neither young person is prepared. Yes, strip clubs proliferate in small towns around here; not exactly great training places for men to be responsible. But the most bizarre (and tragic) case I'd ever heard of evangelical straying from purported "family values" occurred over a decade ago in neighboring Kansas. The head of an independent church was convicted of killing his wife, whom he'd strangled. He denied killing her, but the children had heard the attack. The man had been having an affair with another woman, all catalogued on his computer. When asked why he didn't divorce his wife, he replied that divorce was a sin.
305
I would argue though controversial as my statement would be, that republicans INTENTIONALLY underinvest to keep the status quo and red states red
18
"Their secret, however, is that they encourage their children to simultaneously combine public tolerance with private discipline, and their children then overwhelmingly choose to raise their own children within two-parent families.”
This is hardly evidence of hypocrisy; rather it shows tolerance and the notion that it is not fair or useful to impose your own standards on others. In other words, the blue staters know what is good for themselves and their families and friends, but they do not wish to force that on others. OTOH, the red staters want to force 'no contraception' and 'no abortion' on everyone.
10
Mind Your Own Business has virtues for your own business, as well as for those you leave alone.
4
I don't think that's quite the case.
I'm reminded of feminist parents who demand that, instead of telling women how to be safe, we "tell men not to rape."
However, when it comes to their 15 year old daughter's first unchaperoned evening party, one where it's conceivable alcohol might be surreptitiously served, those same parents are quick to impart all manner of intelligent cautions on how to be safe.
In short, they are happy to experiment with *your* children and treat them as political cannon fodder. Their own children, though? Not a chance.
1
Please do not mention Al Franken in the same sentence as Weinstein and Moore. Those two are serial offenders, and one of them is apparently a pedophile carefully monitored at malls and shops. Franken allegedly kissed a woman without her permission and posed for a tasteless, offensive photograph with plenty of people around on a plane. He does not appear on the photo to be touching the woman. They’re not the same. Let’s not go nuts while we sort this out.
I might also mention that Franken has called for an investigation by the Ethics Committee. Have Trump and Moore called for an investigation of their own behavior? Let’s be rational for a change.
37
If I could vote you up a thousand times I would as I wholeheartedly agree. From the moment the news broke on Sen. Franken, I was and still am in his corner. Clearly anyone looking at that photo could see it was a joke, in poor taste, but nonetheless a joke. I also question the veracity of the woman's story, that may have changed over the years and have seen other pictures from that trip that make me wonder. In no way is he to be equated with that immoral man in Alabama.
1
For the crowd that backs Roy Moore and his ilk. Conservatives fall into the trap of condemning others while following the creed of "Do as I say, not as I do."
5
Mr. Kristof, how about we trade you our 'Blue' voters for your 'Red' voters and let's see how the stats look then.
The logical conclusion is that the statistics would show even greater differences.
2
Sex ed and birth control are foundations of strong family values. Withholding information and access to contraceptives is not pro-family, but anti-woman. The latter has more in common with the Taliban than with enlightened societies.
22
I think you're conflating two different ways of looking at 'morality." Of course blue stater bristle at the stigmatization of single parents and of course they want to raise their children in two parent households. But a single mom or single dad is not considered "less". There's no moral judgement here. What blue state families have done is read the statistics and realized that it's economically better to have a two parent family, the work load in parenting is less, and the outcome seems to be that the children's lives are more stable. If anything, I have great respect for single parents. I was one for a year when my husband and I separated and boy was I exhausted at the end of the day. But imagine if your husband is beating you or is a drunk or a dope addict. You get out of the relationship and you do your best to raise your child. It is neither less nor more than a two parent household. It is sometimes just one of the choices we must make. And I don't think using Mormons as a template for moral behavior, goes down so well with me. They don't drink, they don't dance, they treat women horribly and they think the rest of us are heathen. They send emissaries over to Africa to help build roads, but in return they want the African governments to make homosexuality a capital crime. This article errs on the side of making Puritan values the de facto values for "good". I don't agree.
15
It's long been clear that "family values" is just code for anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-women's lib. They don't care about actual family outcomes; they just want to be sanctimonious and reactionary.
20
As a general rule, liberals in politics want the government out of their bedrooms; they want a woman to make the choice to complete or terminate her pregnancy with the counsel of her doctor, her partner, and possibly her clergyman; they want health care as a right; and they believe in the concept of "the public", which in colonial times used to be called "the commons". Liberals appreciate the value of labor and favor labor unions.
Conservatives, on the other hand, constantly babble about "family values", but when in government don't enact policies that support them. A classic example is Roy Moore, supported by many Republicans who in effect say, "I'd rather vote for a Republican pedophile than let a Democrat win."
Republican drug policy = Just say no.
Republican teen sex policy = Don't have sex.
Republican abortion policy = They're against them, unless they knocked up their mistresses.
I've loathed Republicans for virtually my entire life. I've never voted for one, and I can't imagine a circumstance under which I would.
14
As your newsletter headline announces, Mr. Kristof, ”Blue states do what red states preach." As the current GOP tax "reform" effort makes all-too painfully clear, red states mean to tax what blue states do.
4
Being conservative means clinging to old belief systems, often (always) because of a lack education and diverse cultural experience.
2
Although it doesn’t really change or help their condition, at least the red-state sinners are forgiven. A consolation.
Forgiveness is the opposite of personal responsibility.
GOP, thy name IS hypocrisy. At least the name that is printable. I'm From Ohio, but live in Kansas, for the Husbands Career. We vacation in Seattle, and WILL retire there. The differences between Seattle and Wichita, even superficially, could fill a book. A very depressing, obscenity laced, book. It boils down to ONE item: You really Can NOT fix willful ignorance. Never.
Don't waste time, money or Tears trying.
14
I did notice hemlines are lower now on the women we see on television.
As much as I would love to believe these statistics I find them questionable at best. Has the author visited any minority neighborhoods in Southern California or inner city neighborhoods in Chicago or Baltimore where” single mother “ seems to be the norm. I hardly think these areas would be strong holds of the G.O.P. and surely the sheer numbers in inner city L.A. or Chicago are overwhelming greater than rural Alabama or other enclaves of the G.O.P. Admittedly I’ve never been in the South except Florida but even here the number of single mothers and young children in many new neighborhoods such as the once very “ white” Lake Worth now a community of Central Americans with apparently some connected to MS13 and a number of murders, formed by migration from Central and South America, as well as gang activity is simply stunning, and equally so in parts of Southern California. As I said I would love these stats to reflect reality but a walk or drive around many areas, if you dare, would I think prove otherwise or does common sense not matter when statistics are so easily manipulated to fit whatever scenario you’re attempting to create. Having children one can’t care for whether in America or Bangladesh is the worlds greatest problem and one that shouldn’t be treated as a political football, but one that should be addressed with truth and solutions or we will soon have a world not worth inhabiting.
1
With all due respect, you seem to "think" alot, but don't offer any actual evidence to support those thoughts beyond personal anecdote.
Kristoff overlooks many relevant issues:
1) Red states are poorer than blues and that explains higher rates of divorce and teenage pregnancy.
2) Blue states are procreating at less than the national average. Indeed blues are becoming so fine, upstanding and sterile that our civilization may die -- that's what's happening in Western Europe where the birth rate has dipped beneath the replacement rate. This contradicts traditional values as the Bible commands us to be "fruitful and multiply."
3) There is more abortion in blue states. In this respect, the US is not,at all hypocritical.
4) There are ethical values OUTSIDE OF THE REALM OF SEX. In this repsect, I think Southernors are superior.
In blue states, and places that are like blue states, people seem to believe
a) The government should take care of the poor, afflicted, etc.
and
b) Becasue the government should do that, I need not bother about my neighbor.
And so
i) In Paris, a few years ago, there was a severe heat wave. Several thousand elderly people died. Apparently, the progressive polished perveyors of fashion thought that since the governemnt was supposd to take care of people, they need not do anything.
ii) In NYC, in 1965, Kitty Genovese was slaughered in front of her apartment building. Many apartments had their lights on and were occupied. No one called the police.
iii) As Lyndon Johnson said to D.K. Goodwin, in rural Texas "people know when you're sick and care when you die."
1
Parents in blue states are comparatively more willing to pay high taxes for good strong school systems, and to advocate family planning ...
AND to let their daughters know they have brains, that they are welcome to harbor professional ambitions, that college is a lot more fun if you're not pushing a baby stroller around campus, and that wives are not fashioned by God to serve and obey their husbands.
7
I find myself laughing at the unfortunate plight of the former state rep Wes Goodman, a plight I might add is of his own doing.
In addition to being the so called "conscience of the conservative movement", he's a hypocrite and an adulterer.
Should I feel sorry for his wife? I do not!
Maurelius: "Should I feel sorry for his wife? I do not!"
I feel the same way about Mrs. Moore--herself a bride much younger than her husband. She can stand at that microphone proudly saying her husband will not quit, but I suspect she cries herself to sleep at night knowing that those women are telling the truth--probably one she lived herself. Am I sad for her. Nope. I suspect she really, really, wants to be known as Mrs. Senator Moore.
We had a local prosecutor get into trouble with prostitution recently, and he went to jail. So far as I recall, no one suggested he run for the Senate.
People tend to be poorer in red states and prospects more limited so there's less of an incentive to hold off on sex until you have a graduate degree or a decent job. Not to mention with poverty (and ingrained racial issues) comes fractured families, crime, etc.
If red states didn't confess family values to the extent they do they might even be worse off. And at least in the red states we know that family values do account for something whereas in blue states their "family values" might just be a result of educated elites holding off on having kids or standing to lose much by risking sex as privileged teens.
It depends on what you mean by "family values". If by these you mean respect and support for your partner, and care and concern for the wellbeing of your children, then I would say blue states seem to demonstrate them.
LR, the difference may not be so much that young people in blue states are "holding off" on sex as it is the young people in blue states are smart enough to take precautions when they have sex.
In red states I believe that this sad situation is a lack of education and a lack of optimism about the future. While the parents of these young people shout about their rights for guns, no birth control and no abortions, their kids are bored, futureless and emotionally impoverished.
1
I used to have relatives in the deep south and as a result made several road trip down there in the '90s. I was always amused that south of the old Mason-Dixon line was where porn shops sprouted like weeds. For every church there was a porn shop (often right next door) with cars and trucks in the parking lots no matter what time of the day. Every gas station had a shelf of hard porn at eye level when you walked in. From Atlanta to Orlando was one long porno mall with huge signs advertising SEX and NUDES.
Yes, there are porn shops in the north, but far fewer than in the Bible belt.
7
Yes, but let's not put Franken with Weinstein or even CK in the same category of skunkiness. They're not. That's accepting (or even promoting) false equivalencies out of fear of being called a hypocrite by those who defend Trump or Moore.
9
The middle class values are impulse control, foresight and their consequence, deferred gratification. Before contraception, applying those values to sex required continence or outright chastity to prevent the birth of children to people who couldn't afford to raise them in a stable family structure. Traditional religion enforced that through its teaching about sin. But one side effect was to compel or at least incentivize premature marriage as the only legitimate outlet for sexual desire.
Contraception changed all that; it allows a sort of sustained rumspringa in which the children - especially the female children - of the upwardly mobile middle class can indulge in sex without reproductive consequences until they decide it is time to settle down and reproduce with a suitable long term partner and a decent household income. But that pattern only works as long as the sexual impulse is considered something to be rationally managed rather than something sinful to be confined.
The combination of continence and early marriage used to work - or at least endure - as long as social pressure and the law compelled people to make the best of the improvident choices they made when young and horny. It no longer works because individual expectations are higher and people who have made mistakes have the option to walk away from their partner, if not from their offspring, when things get difficult. That's why the stronghold of stable families is now in the reasoning classes.
2
Everybody has sex, Mr. Kristof. If we can begin there, honestly, perhaps we can move on to religion or morals and ethics or politics.
The difference between "liberals" and the "evangelical" Right is that the former readily grant that the biological functions of post-puberty are not inherently evil. They must be harnessed to a degree in which social norms and conventions are not (openly) violated. Liberals (I loathe the term because it's inaccurate) have come to terms with their bodies and their functions. The Right, however, seem forever chained to a prehistoric viewpoint in which the human form is a shameful, sinless vessel of corruption and should be banished from...what? The human condition? Theirs is an unreasonable, Puritanical ignorance that refuses to recognize the human form and instead seeks to assess blame rather than become reconciled to the enduring crucible of, yes, the human condition. It's how God made us.
It's unsurprising that Judge Roy Moore has the support of most Alabamians. It simply doesn't matter that he may have indulged his lust with young girls when he should have known better. The hypocrisy of the Bible Belt is replete with examples from "holy scripture" in which indecencies will be forgiven if they are genuinely repented. Sin is one thing (deliberate); remorse is quite another (acknowledgement).
Sexual predation in red states is a dangerous outlier of the deeper culture of white supremacy which preaches: "we can do no wrong. God is with us."
3
Just give kids a solid education, including sex ed, phys ed and learning about the worlds religious belief systems, based on facts and science and we will all be better off for it. Especially the kids.
3
Not really a surprise. With the Evangelical crowd, it’s always morality for thee not for me. The whole Evangelical religion is built now hypocrisy along with intolerance and greed.
1
Parents in blue states are more likely (I expect) to pay high taxes to support a strong school system and welcome education in family planning ...
AND to inform their daughters that professional ambitions aren't reserved for the boys, that college is lots more fun if you're not pushing a baby stroller across campus. and God does not command them to serve and obey men.
Living in the edge of 3 red states, I see poverty as the main cause of teen births and single parent homes. Generational poverty as these young girls have many children with no support or education. Maybe if the religious righteous would devote more time working with these young girls teaching them their worth and about long term birth control and the importance of education it would be a different picture.
2
A simpler explanation is that since those issues are worse in red states, their citizens are more likely to want something done and thus support politicians who condemn those behaviors.
1
"In contrast, people in blue states don’t trumpet these family values but often seem to do a better job living them."
This suprises you? Then you are blinded by the same self-righteous religious arrogance of conservative hypocrites, that presumes a Christian monopoly on ethics, morals, honour and goodness. History is the story of the development of these human qualities in our myriad civilizations from Mesopotamia to ancient China and India and Greece to name but a few. Christians are latecomers and frankly co-opt rather than add much new to the world's moral philosophy.
Our nation's "soul", if you will, is based on several critical philosophical concepts. One of the most important being "the Seperation of Church and State". When Christian leaders decided to use politics to force their "moral agenda" down the throats of the rest of us, they acted with the absolute surety, "Only we know the truth," of the righteous. Self-righteousness leads to an ends-justifies-the-means posture which is more or less by definition hypocritcal. If the leaders are hypocrites, is it suprising that the disciples follow?
3
Poor conservatives who vote against self-interest frustrate a lot of progress. They'd deny an entire community better or more social services before letting a "lazy" neighbor get more than his due.
1
I don't think liberals have sex anymore than conservatives. The difference is that liberals tend to be more realistic and pragmatic about issues of sexuality, including birth control.
1
While I value Mr. Kristof's contributions to our understanding of the values debate in our country, I wish he and other writers would not assume that "blue state" citizens aren't ever motivated by religious values.
Speaking only about my particular faith, we understand that Jesus commands us to love our neighbors, defined as everyone, and also not to be judgemental of others. This means doing all we can to provide food, shelter, clothing, health care, education, and job training for everyone, through charitable giving, active volunteering, and voting to tax ourselves to pay for the public programs that will help the most people.
Perhaps this type of religious individual isn't identified because we strive to walk the talk, allowing deeds to define who we are rather than being so-called "Bible thumpers."
1
Liberals and conservatives alike don’t want kids pregnant at 16 - I don't know about this. The Republican party is against comprehensive birth control, Planned Parenthood and abortion. When you don't educate teenagers about their bodies and provide contraception, they will get pregnant because they are having sex. The Republicans promote policies designed to result in astronomical teen birth rates and their constituents are fine with this because they continue voting them in office.
207
All true and let’s add to it that many of these states did not expand Medicaid and the Republicans refuse to renew Chip.
Many of these folks are marginalized and punished for their behavior and yet they aren’t angry at their government they are angry at Liberals
5
The significant, life altering consequences of teen parenthood are primarily shouldered by the female. This is part of the continuing war on women. Male babies born to these young women who grow up in these christian values families find joining the military is an attractive option when alternatives are limited. Another "value" of the religious right. It's a vicious cycle with they seem to be just fine with.
4
This survey was taken while President Obama was in the White House. His free contraception without copays obviously did not have much of an impact on certain parts of the country. His friend Cecile Richards and her Planned Parenthood facilities which were prevalent in these parts did not have much of an impact on the youth here. Maybe it is time to defund Planned Parenthood and put that money on teaching children how to respect themselves and others. At least let's give it a try.
1
"But there’s also perhaps a measure of hypocrisy in the blue states"
What, because in blue states parents believe in the family enforcing social values instead of the government doing so?
The big difference seems to be that many voters in the red states want the government to play a legal role in the enforcement of what they consider "Christian values". Voters in the blue states tend to believe in the most important tenant in our constitution to our founding fathers- the clear separation of the church and state.
8
I think you hit on the root cause of these issues near the end of the article... It's about political choices that yield results in public education, social services and access to health care. Red, conservative states put low value on, and even ridicule these areas. Blue, liberal states tend to put a higher value on them and the outcomes in terms of teen brith rate, educational attainment, and public health demonstrate it.
16
Low tax, small government nations and states do not work. Economic inequality and lack of opportunity cause people to act in unethical and immoral ways towards one another. Shared prosperity brings a sense of community, economic Darwinism brings only hate and fear.
7
Really this isn't a matter of Blue-State Red-State. Its a matter of educational levels and status and class. Blue States tend to have residents with higher education. They have higher incomes, are wealthier etc. People like that tend to marry later. And they stay married. They have good well paying jobs because they are educated. So what we have here is showing the decline of high paying low skill jobs in this country. This is not just true of Red State but of also the African-American community in many large blue state cities.
1
Weird that the author doesn't mention that the income level has a lot to do with it. The more affluent the state, the less the kids are likely to behave this way; the lower the income level, the more so. That's much of a correlation than this red-blue stuff.
With rising income inequality, a faltering educational system, and an electorate that is either highly polarized or stunningly apathetic, the U.S. is on a clear trajectory to becoming a Banana Republic.
We are quickly dividing into two classes. One is driven by a boundless pursuit of wealth and is consolidating its power over the government The other, stupefied by mindless entertainment, drugs, celebrity worship, or obsequious religious piety, is increasing in size even as it grows politically weaker.
Our once-promising experiment in self-government may be nearing the end. Donald Trump is its likely angel of death.
3
It is not that residents of red and blue states have different moral values, but rather that they choose different methods of implementing the same values.
I had a fundamentalist Catholic upbringing in a very red region within a blue state. I, and a majority of my friends, grew up and abandonned the Church. The challenge for us, and perhaps for these other conservative cohorts, is that once you start doubting the faith, you haven't been inculcated with any backup moral code. Your salvation through Jesus was all you needed to know about getting to heaven, both necessary and sufficient. So after leaving the Church you have to make your own path to a moral life. As a liberal, I chose to admire Jesus's teachings as a fine code of conduct to aspire to, even without any spiritual baggage attached.
6
The entire situation as you describe, Nicholas Kristof, is alarming and really very depressing.
This is not the country I grew up with, was well educated by and nurtured by (as were my children).
It's just criminal what Donald Trump and his minions have done without actually doing anything except by modeling loathsome behavior and attitudes.
2
Psychologically, this all makes sense. Roy Moore is a particularly instructive example. He knows that it is wrong (even illegal) to consort with underaged girls, so to compensate he holds firmly to rigid, extreme moral views and even goes so far as to impose them on other people. By doing this, he "absolves" himself of his guilt over his conduct and drives the shameful behaviors even further underground. It's a well known defense mechanism called "compensation" that we all have to one degree or another. The more extreme the tension between the shame and guilt over the conduct and the need to resolve it, the more extreme the compensatory strategies. What strikes me is the complete lack of self-awareness, both in Judge Moore and in the people he represents. They don't seem to get that the people who scream the loudest about morality are the very same ones who privately practice immorality. That dynamic seems to hold true in the "red states" cited by Mr. Kristof.
5
Too often liberals are thought of as "libertines" by conservatives while liberals envision conservatives as repressive or regressive. I believe this is where we break down in our ability to seek bipartisan solutions to the very pressing problems facing our society.
These facts make it clear the hypocrisy of the Republican Party, as if it needed more illumination. But the author is wrong about Democrats/Progressives. We don't propose no moral code, we say the choice of a personal moral code is the choice of the individual alone. Blue states choose less teenage sex, fewer teen pregnancies and fewer divorces; red states choose the opposite. Another hypocrisy is the narrative from red state Congressmen that they no longer want their red states to subsidize the blue states through the state and local tax deduction. The ACTUAL truth is that Blue states are subsidizing red states with our taxes and red states' poor moral choices.
3
I don't see that it's hypocritical for blue state families to instill discipline in the household while rejecting the idea of the state as the moral enforcer. Overgeneralization about blue and red states may be unfair, but it seems the hypocrites are those who demand the state step in to restrict everyone else while they're doing a lousy job of controlling themselves or instilling discipline in their own families.
4
I don't agree with the notion that liberals are hypocritical in this. As Mr. Kristoff noted, nobody wants their 16 year old to be pregnant. Liberals, according to the article, talk to their kids about it (education, ha!). What's hypocritical about that?
I haven't studied the Bible, but I remember someone making a comment that It does not condemn pre-marital sex, only post-marital straying--the ten commandment only forbids adultery and coveting thy neighbor's wife. Someone with more knowledge can correct this if it is wrong.
1
This is interesting. You might also have mentioned the possibility of reverse causation (i.e., that you've got your dependent and independent variables mixed up). Maybe if you live in a place with high rates of family disfunction, you feel that desperate measures are called for to change behavior. The basic point that the red state measures adopted clearly don't work very well still stands.
I'm glad that the conclusion is to drop the family values war.
The difference between the left and the right *politically* on the subject of family values and conservative social values is that the left does not see them as a matter for the basis of law or discrimination, and the right does.
We don't want our children having sex too young or getting pregnant, but do want preventative education and contraception available to them. We don't want the law to punish anyone for being sexually active, regardless of how we may find it foolish and undesirable to b active too young.
We don't want public policy to marginalize people who need help to get themselves educated and employed, even if they are unmarried parents. We want them to earn their own way, and raise children in households that are not financial and social disasters.
We do diverge moe on the nature of our kids sexuality - people who hold more liberal values are more likely to accept our children when they tell us that they are LGBT. We are less likely to disown them or send them to conversion camp.
And we are less likely to discriminate against them, or more to the point, ask the law to make it easy and legal for us to discriminate against them.
So the war isn't over the values, it is more over how we approach teaching them, and enforcing them. Liberals tend to believe that you teach your own kids values, and help all kids get back up when they fall under the burden of mistakes,
1
The author suggests it's hypocritical for blue staters to be accepting of single parenthood and not want to restrict sexual behavior, while being more married and less divorced, but is he trying to sound more balanced in saying so?
Marriage is becoming more common ~ getting married and staying married ~ among people who are more educated and better off. It's harder to stay married with major stressors, including money problems.
I consider myself a liberal prude. I'd just as soon skip most sex scenes in movies. I wish being on a first-name basis was reserved for close acquaintances, and the rest of us called each other Mr. So-and-so, Ms. So-and-so, or Mx. So-and-so. I think family is wonderful but that it's not up to me or my religion to define family. And I believe in public health, available contraception, and rational sex ed. I see nothing hypocritical in that.
If the result of enlightened policies is more two-parent families, then that's not because that structure has been imposed by religion or the state, it's probably because it's a good way to do something wonderful but difficult: coping with life and raising children.
3
It's my observation that conservatives, while less likely to accept evolutionary theory, take a more 'Darwinian' approach to life. For example they typically have larger families and support a 'survival of the fittest' philosophy in terms of social services for the needy.
1
This is all true, but I don't like to frame it as liberal/conservative, because there are a lot of blue state conservatives who don't go in for bible thumping or banning sex education -- conservatives who are tolerant about private behavior while at the same time doing whatever they can to help their children make good life choices.
This is really a cultural and geographic issue. The South, which for this argument would also include Oklahoma, Kansas, and Missouri, is a culturally and intellectually backward region that promotes biblical "values" of intolerance and prudery. The intolerance -- toward nonwhites, non-Christians, gays, etc., is real. The prudery is a cover for an inner depravity that Roy Moore, for example, exemplifies.
There are of course tolerant and sensible people in the South, and bigots and perverts in blue states. But the generalization holds true. And the "hypocrisy" of blue state attitudes is benign, whereas red state hypocrisy has toxic effects.
I've said it before -- the South should leave again. We won't make you come back; far from it.
New York is about as blue as you can get and the young are anything but conservative. Some think nothing of discussing their sexual experiences on the bus or in the subway. Once girls and boys talked about dates and parties but now it is much more intimate in nature. It is a shame they have lost their innocence and what do they have to look forward to later in life. They are dating much earlier and wearing clothes that are a bit too suggestive. Call me old fashioned but the youth are growing up too soon and losing out on their youth. They may regret it when they look back on their lives but then it is too late. You cannot put the genie back in the bottle unfortunately.
This is a phenomenon that has been observed by far-right commentators and it's another source of rage. The thinking goes something like this: the 'elites' preach values of anything goes, while they themselves pursue marriage and intact families. Thus spreading values that cause chaos while reaping the benefits of values that cause stability and prosperity.
I have read right wing conspiracy screeds that have this as a central point, except they claim it's a deliberate program.
I am so glad this is finally being said out loud. I grew up with a "family-values" inferiority complex, being progressive, but also somewhat buying into the conservative rhetoric that they were somehow better people who loved their kids and wives more, helped old ladies across the street and generally smiled on all of "God's children". I have over time come to realize that not only was this rhetoric incorrect, but spectacularly so. Progressive communities are simply better places to live, built around progressive values of being more accepting and offering better services and community support. This is true even for conservatives who live in these communities. I am more and more convinced that the left should make a big deal about their family values in the next elections - give the right a family values inferiority complex for once!
8
Apparently, judging from some of the comments, the conservative right wing believes liberals cheat their way to lower pregnancies, abortions, and later marriages. That is, liberals replace morals with wicked, devil-inspired work-arounds.
Ergo, conservatives, while more often involved in unmarried pregnancies and entering into child marriages are still moral because they didn't cheat. A moral lapse (or many moral lapses in the case of Roy Moore) where unchained lust drives behavoir is, nevertheless, forgivable because no cheating was invloved.
It seems to me that "cheating" is equivalent of taking responsibility for one's actions while not cheating means abdicating one's rsponsibilities because all will be forgiven at some later date through contrition and repentance. Never mind that contrition and repentance don't do much for the victims of irresponsible behavior.
1
Too many Red State Christians have abused and misused their faith to elevate their status. They have used their self-righteous judgments (based on Biblical literalism and fraudulent interpretations) to belittle what they see as the elitism of the Blue States. Their conservative / right-wing / evangelical Christianity may have made them feel superior to their northern neighbors. However, the practice of their faith clearly has not made them morally superior or made their actions better than those from "up North." Their rejection of all science only encourages ridicule.
1
I agree with the article, and it's the same all over the world. However, I would rephrase it as follows:
"Liberals practice the values that conservatives want to impose on everybody else"
2
A good article. But it's absurd to accuse blue-staters of "hypocrisy" because they are "wary of strict moral codes" but raise their children to be responsible about sex. Blue-staters (accepting the generalizations that this article presents) try to behave responsibly and to teach their kids to do the same--but they refrain from condemning, ostracizing, or punishing those who stumble. That's not hypocrisy--it's realism and compassion.
3
The nub of the matter comes through, as it should, in your penultimate paragraph:
"So the deeper problem seems to be the political choices that conservatives make, underinvesting in public education and social services (including contraception). This underinvestment leaves red states poorer and less educated — and thus prone to a fraying of the social fabric."
I agree. At the same time, I wonder if something like the following is not also to blame:
The religiosity of poor, uneducated people -- I speak from close acquaintance -- is a world apart from political choice and a world above objective moral judgement; hence the remark by one Alabaman to the effect that God is with Roy Moore, so it doesn't matter how he has behaved. To you and me, it may be the most natural thing in the world to conclude from Moore's behavior that he is not with God. But "in the world" is the stumbling block. Down-home religion can become a self-sanctifying invocation of higher authority.
1
It is not hypocrisy to be against the stigmatization of single-parent homes while simultaneously recognizing that two people (or three!) raising a child is a more healthy situation. Likewise, supporting policies to ease the burden on teen mothers does not mean you think it's awesome when teenagers have kids.
Not sure if it was the author's intent but that part of the article was not well thought-out.
I would say the problem here is the availability of information. Young adults are smart and curious however in the red states they are not given the info or choice.
1
I'm from a self-describing liberal family, but my upbringing was undergirded by firm rules and expectations of self-control. When I was still in high school, my mother took my twin sister and I aside and explained that, while she firmly believed we should wait (till when, she never specified) to engage in sexual activity, she was also going to get us both started on birth control. The result of this serious conversation with my mother? We both got on birth control, and we both consciously waited awhile. I credit her wisdom and practicality- nested inside that one conversation and decision- with getting us both through a good education to the beginning of satisfying careers and, most fulfillingly, loving marriages.
1
As much an advocate for gender equality as Kristoff is, I'm surprised he didn't mention it here. Worldwide, including in the U.S., where women are valued more nearly equally to men - including by women themselves - rates of pre-marital sex and pregnancy are lower. Where women are expected to complete a course of education at least equal to that of men, early marriages are less likely. And where pre-marital pregnancy and early marriages are less common, divorces and adultery are less frequent.
So I don't think blue state adherence to "red state values" is a matter of liberal hypocrisy at all. Liberals are more likely than conservatives - sorry about this, but it's just the fact - to value women more nearly equally to men, evidence from Al Franken to the contrary notwithstanding. And liberal families are more likely to place equal value on their daughters' education as on their sons'.
When conservatives were still saying a woman's place is in the home, liberals began saying a woman's place is in the House - and in the Senate. Count the number of women from each party in both of those bodies, and tell me whether conservatives or liberals value women more nearly equally to men. It's not even close.
politicsbyeccehomo.wordpress.com
3
Successfully combining public tolerance with personal discipline is not easy because discipline is hard to acquire and even harder to practice. Discipline stems from a stable loving home that sets well defined, attainable goals, provides the resources necessary to meet those goals, and recognizes the hard work that required to meet those goals. That's just as true in red states as in blue states.
Every parent wants to provide a stable loving home. Not all parents succeed. Maybe it's just easier to provide a stable home in blue states. J.D. Vance's memoir, Hillbilly Elegy, provides valuable insight into how a child seeks, and finds the stable, loving relationship with a grandmother that defines his home. The memoir follows Mr. Vance as leaves home and continues to develop personal discipline in Boot Camp, service in Iraq, undergraduate study at Ohio State and postgraduate study at Yale Law School. The memoir ends with his recognition that the things he values most are his marriage and his family.
Those values are found in blue states and red states.
16
Conservatives by definition are those slow to change so it would be likely that the social stats quoted are not much different from those say 50 years ago while those from progressive states show changes. To divide R voters from D voters on the basis of social issues is interesting in itself since the economy, usually considered a decisive factor in election results, is ignored.
23
The association of higher teen pregnancy rates, single parent homes, drug use, etc is not so much with political voting as it is with poverty, educational level, history, and regionalism. Coastal communities both east and west are experiencing more diversity and exposure to alternatives to 19th century Evangelicalism. This allows freer thought and independent actions. The Appalachian and southern areas will change over time, adapting to modern reality, or they will fall farther and farther behind the mainstream. It is their choice.
7
Yes, but as the article points out, political voting is what leads to poverty, educational level, history, and regionalism in red states. People in red states have been voting at least since Reagan for the policies that brought them to their present situation.
1
Growing up in an atypical family in a border town of Appalachia, I discovered early on that the primary purpose of Evangelical Christianity was to formally supplant the need for thought. The church of my friends' parents told them what was right and wrong and discussion ended there. The problem is such demand as to always obey such teaching is easy to sidestep in the minds of those who might occasionally formulate their own ideas in their own minds. It's my experience that the mind always wants reason and when it is discouraged from reason it does not bode well for following rules.
All of that being said, I question the wisdom of always dividing up America into either red state or blue state. To me that is a cynical decision that there is no common ground within enemy camps. If the problem is one of philosophy, then debate the philosophical flaws and the societal dissimilarities of red and blue people, but don't always assume that the red counties in the red states contain only armed snipers looking for blues. It's not helpful. This national schism exists; there's no need in making it wider.
20
Understanding the issues discussed in the column is essential to overcoming the schism between red and blue cultures in the US. So, we can't hide and deny the existence of the problem. And, we can't overcome it if we don't have a civil discussion.
7
Is there another way we can think besides liberal versus conservative or red versus blue ? This is getting tired and I’m not at all sure reflective of the essential truths of our collective identities notwithstanding media and politics driven characterizations. We are far more diverse, complicated and worthy than these labels infer.
39
I taught English and Reading to at-risk high school kids here in Florida for the last 5 years of my professional life.
My classroom was on the second floor, with the day care center for student's kids directly below. (Yes, our school actually had such a thing - sad it was needed, but glad it was provided - always a waiting list). Many of my students had kids there, many more wanted to.
The sounds of the crying and general commotion often wafted up into my room, offering regular opportunities to discuss the realities of teen pregnancy.
The day-care program required that all moms also take a parental training class - but did not require the participation of the fathers. Only 1 in 10 of the kids had both parents involved. Only 1 in 10 actually had the father involved in their lives at all.
When I pointed this out to the mothers and potential mothers in my class, they seemed unaffected - they did not expect the father to be there for them. White, black and brown, these girls had accepted the role of "baby-daddy" - somewhere over boyfriend but less than husband.
Early marriage was not the problem - unwed single girls - were.
Almost all of my students professed to be conservative Christian - boys and girls - and almost all came from very socially conservative families.
The classes filled with college bound kids, the college credit courses - did not have this pervasive problem. In my 5 years there, only one of those girls got pregnant.
144
"these girls had accepted the role of "baby-daddy" - somewhere over boyfriend but less than husband"
When I have seen that happen -- too often -- it has been a sound value judgment by the girl. The baby daddy in question was unable to provide economically, and unavailable emotionally to be much of anything to much of anyone. Too many times he was criminal too, a drug dealer or worse a drug abuser and petty thief.
I am reminded of what my Grandmother told me when I asked why she never remarried, since she was young, beautiful by all the family pictures, and desperately needed the help. Her answer, "Any man who would marry a woman with 5 children in the middle of the Depression wouldn't be worth the lead it would take to blow his brains out." She was a tough woman. She was also right.
It comes down to, How do they get pregnant by such losers?
The answer is, Have you ever really seen a young teenager "in love" for the first time? Even smart kids are complete idiots. I was too. I'd bet the reader here was too, and on balance I'd make a lot of money on that open bet.
Who can influence a young person in love, and how? That is a very special relationship. It goes well past sex education. I made it through with my kids, so far, by the skin of my teeth, and I'm very humble in my confusion on just exactly how we can help them with that. But help we must.
6
"Public tolerance with private discipline:" exactly what is needed in a secular society. Holding your own children to a set of values which you model, which does not have to be based on religion, but doesn't have to exclude religious influence. But it does have to take into consideration human behavior,
so that instead of railing about sin to the young, more earth based rewards and consequences emphasized. And where knowledge is good; and ignorance deadly.
Many liberals who reject strict religious moral codes live by strict ETHICAL codes.
My sense of some of the evangelical groups is that it places heavy emphasis on rigid rules but little on human reflection about values. Teenage sexual exploration is nothing new under the sun; but when regarded simply as evil, it leaves teens with no model for more responsible sexual activity. They cannot talk about it in terms of consequences. Girls especially are saddled with the old Madonna/Magdalen, virgin/whore, prototype, which can lead to self hate or helplessness - rather than owning your own feelings and thoughts, and acting responsibly.
The Church of Latter Day Saints is successful in minimizing at risk behavior in teens, I believe, because it is such a family based culture. The Mormon core unit is the family, and families -adults and children- give up outside activities regularly to interact with one another.
25
It is good to see articles like this one analyzing some of the problems that exist between different segmants of society. However, in addition, we need to find organizations somewhere in the country charged with proposing solutions, as well as others to take responsibility to bring those solutions to fruition.
5
If tolerance is one of the virtues taught, then self-control will not be enforced by social intolerance and must come from other sources. These sources will include individual understanding of actions and their consequences, so that individuals will be able to figure out how to get what they want while minimizing the risk of what they do not want. This pragmatic and utilitarian approach gets the best outcomes, but is considered immoral and cheating by a rule-based, intolerant view of morality. Thus blue states get the results red states long for by cheating rather than promoting true virtue and practicing true family values. Knowing how to get sexual pleasure without risking pregnancy does not promote abstinence.
5
There are red counties in blue states and blue counties in red states. Are the red counties in the blue states like the state as a whole or are they like red counties in red states? Similarly, do the blue counties in red states, such as university towns, reflect the states they are in or not?
41
Texas is a good example of your point sdavidcc9. The state itself is 'red', very much so. But, there are 'blue' islands. Dallas and Austin are blue. Dallas has a Perot Science museum. A beautiful building with one large floor devoted entirely to evolution. No mention of creationism anywhere. To enjoy the museum one has to 'think', so faith based religion doesn't have its own floor. University of Texas is prominent in both cities.
3
That is a very good question. I think the data exists by county. It would take a lot of work to dig it out. Perhaps it could be done as sampling rather than more complete numbers. I'd love to see it. I suspect the answer, as no doubt you do too, but I'm quite prepared to be surprised on this one.
As someone who went to a red state, blue university town university, I would say that the pattern holds. Arizona fits the red state pattern Kristoff expounds, but Tempe fits the blue state pattern. I expect the same in other similar cultural milieu.
2
I would argue that the problem with red states is the obsession with sin as a guiding principle. Rather than seeing people as good or bad, it is much more useful to see decisions as good or bad. Seen through this rubric, the apparent inconsistency among liberals Mr. Kristoff observes between tolerant attitudes and prudent behavior makes perfect sense.
151
One question about the divorce statistic: is the *marriage* rate higher in red states? That is: it isn't unusual in my blue area for couples to live together without marriage, sometimes for years, sometimes with children; sometimes leading to marriage (eventually) but sometimes not. If these relationships end, they don't count against the divorce rate. So it's possible that committed monogamous relationships aren't that much more stable in blue states. (But then again, maybe they are.)
13
My quick reading of the studies cited was that even controlling for differences in cohabitation rates between counties, the divorce rate was higher in conservative communities.
13
Marriage rates are similar across the US; In my area I also see more couples that are not married but are a family but the area has a higher population
Longterm couples living out of wedlock is much more prevalent in the red states.
I have served as a counselor at coed leadership camps for high school juniors in California and Oregon on behalf of an international Christian service organization. The student participants come from rural, overwhelmingly conservative regions as well as urban and suburban areas that reflect the blue state values that people usually attribute to the west coast.
The sponsor of the camps is very concerned about the potential for sexual interactions between the students, but they do not go overboard with rules or segregation of boys and girls to protect against teen sex or harassment. Instead, they rely on counselors to impart an air of openness, respect, and empathy to protect the students at camp while preparing them to cope with sexual desires and vulnerabilities in day to day life.
By conducting discussions of the various stakeholders -- peers, counselors, the camp, and parents -- the young people gain a rich sense of the values of their community and work out codes of conduct that are satisfying and sources of pride. Some students are shy or embarrassed by honest discussions of possibilities for intimacy with their friends and acquaintances, but they all learn and grow in an atmosphere of inclusion and trust.
I suspect some of the problems associated with teens in red states have to do with rules and education that do not allow honest discussion of options and consequences of real world sexual behavior. Kids who are respected learn respect and responsibility.
210
I think we're seeing a lot of what lies at the bottom of this problem for Red States: the way Alabamans have rallied behind alleged child molester, Roy Moore. The disconnect between the "Christian" values that these people believe in and the actual way they apply these values is pretty strange. We saw the same schism with the presidential election. I do think that Red States place a lower value on women than they do on men and they accept a wide swath of criminal behavior from their powerful men Male power in red states is very dominant - the kind of power that is still trying to keep women in "their place" which has caused Red States to be very outdated in the way they approach sexual behavior.
1
I saw in my local small town paper that the county I live in (a rural county in Oklahoma) has a 33% rate of girls getting pregnant before they graduate from high school. The article bragged that the county was doing well because that was lower than the state average.
What is the future for these 15, 16, and 17 year old mothers?
271
Linda.....Senator-To-Be-Roy Moore will graciously welcome all of these sexually active teenage Oklahoma girls into his Senate chambers.
And if the girls can't make it to Washington, Roy will be happy to visit them at the local mall in Oklahoma.
199
I suspect there are almost as many 16 and 17 year old fathers.
What will happen to those kids, when they grow up with two near-incapable biological parents?
Will the father really just leave it all behind him? That would imply getting out of his small town life, far out of sight and mind. That is not likely for a real loser in life's calculus.
These young mothers have problems. So do the children, and even most of the fathers. This is a wider social disaster than just the mothers.
In most cases the kids are the worst hit, not the mothers.
In many cases, the fathers are less hit, but also very unable to take a hit, in borderline lives anyway.
8
During my daughter's high school years here in Santa Barbara, I observed daily the cars pull up to the on-campus child-care facility for the young mothers attending school. While I was happy to see this aid in helping the girls continue their education despite having a baby, I did not approve of the placement of this facility right in the middle of campus. Every day, those cars ALWAYS DRIVEN BY THE GIRLS' PARENTS would drop them off, and every day the boys would stand around, observe this, and think "No problem. Somebody else will take care of it". It was NEVER the boys' families who did the dropping off of the child and mother, or who dropped off the girl and took the car-seat bound baby home to care for all day. The impression this left on the teen age boys was clear.
7
There are values and there are values. Kristof looks at individual behavior through some selected indices. I live in very blue CT, total control by Dems at state and national level. CT is broke. The Democratic Party sold its soul to state employee unions years ago without any consideration of how to pay for the union give always. I would suggest that living within your means- individually and collectively- is a worthy objective. Curious as to how fiscal health of states correlates with blue/red governance.
7
Curious as to how this relates to the topic at hand.
Nonetheless-- data also suggests that the presence of unions leads to higher wages. Part of industry moving towards red states was to avoid unions and cut costs.
I wonder how the concerned poster would extrapolate the impact of the proposed Republican tax bill on the fiscal health of states?
77
It - decent job, living wages, and government funding for collective
solutions - which I interpret as funding for things like education, including sex education, health care including access to birth control, absolutely have something to do with the topic at hand. Those regions / states in the US, and indeed countries, with a higher decent living wage, access to health care and education, lower income gap, are more economically stable and, as a result of all of the above, have lower rates of teen pregnancy, abortion and child marriage. It is not rocket science.
27
Also wondering what this has to do with the issues Mr. Kristof raises. As for "living within your means," the red states don't do so well at that either. Many of them are "takers" at the Federal level. They get far more back from the Federal government that what they contribute in terms of tax revenue. As for Connecticut and other blue states, they tend to get far less. One reason that taxes in blue states are so high is that they're asked to subsidize less successful states that are then free to undertax themselves. The amounts involved are not trivial. It runs into the hundreds of billions for states like Connecticut, New Jersey and New York. Yet another example of red state hypocrisy.
3
Once when I was taking a population ecology course from LaMont Cole, he was summoned for two weeks to Washington DC (he was Nixon's Ecology Advisor) to if needed help with legislation. He wasn't needed much so he spent time at the Bureau of the Census and brought back a lot of raw data (which often had to be corrected) from several censuses. For our final exam we had to explain what had happened. Mind you, this was the first time we applied our mathematical tools to humans, but they worked. There were interesting anomalies, and some data relevant to this article. Most women who had children had their first baby as teenagers, and a minority of those having children got married nine (or eight or seven) months before the birth of their first child. Most of the country has changed a lot since then. Some states, mainly those that are poor, less educated, and more Republican, have come less far.
17
Mr Kristoff, your column has some fair points, but I think you really need to consider other factors - not just political alignments. I remember my year in El Paso, a solid blue city with mostly Catholic and Latino families, where the high schools all have busy daycare centers - for the students. Without research to support my findings, my hunch is that it is all about education - not just politics, religion, or race.
38
I agree that kids don't have sex based on their politics. But I think that red states underfund their schools and women's health clinics, so their young people are more likely to have unprotected sex. Unfortunately, cities like El Paso are subject to the Texas legislature.
2
Mr. Kristof, it doesn’t matter if teenagers are in blue or red states, if raging hormones and out-of-control chemistry take over, it’s hard not to yield to temptation. Young men and women are naturally endowed with the urge to explore their sexuality and it’s doubtful that politics come up when the birds start chirping and the bees start buzzing. Judging what has happened over the last week regarding Roy Moore and Al Franken, if family values were more important than their revved up libidos, they wouldn’t be cast as pariahs today. Sexual activity can be a matter of opportunity or availability, not of blue or red political viewpoints.
5
That is just the point! All teenagers have raging hormones whether they live in red states or blue. ( In fact, all teenagers in all ages for as long as human have exited have had raging hormones. In the Stone age, life expectancy was in the mid-twenties, they had to get an early start on the next generation.) But what Nick is pointing out is that, in spite of those raging hormones, kids in blue states don't seem to be producing as many unplanned and unwanted pregnancies as the kids in red states do, nor do they engage in sex as early as kids in red states do. And, in spite of red state religiosity, those kids are more likely to have parents that are divorced and they will likely marry early and divorce, too. Go back and read this article again.
2
"Raging hormones," perhaps, but in adult men like Roy Moore.
Today, about half of the births to teen mothers involve men ages 20-24, and an additional one-sixth are over age 25. Despite its long history and prominence in vital statistics reports, the fact that adult men father the large majority of babies born to teenage mothers came as a surprise to researchers in the 1990s who had assumed the fathers were predominately teenage males (Landry & Forrest 1995).
4
It's not just sexual activity, it's sexual activity and the knowledge about, access to, and use of birth control. The article doesn't suggest that teenagers' hormones are different in red and blue states.
4
SALT taxes go towards education, first responders, transportation, criminal justice, indigent health care and other services not largely funded through Federal taxes. Taxes on college endowments, tuition, college loans while encouraging write-offs for religious and private schools is just part of the GOP to privatize as many services as possible and destroy the country's public education system. Linked with the latest laws to allow concentration of media ownership Trump and company are laying the ground work for the coming right-wing dictatorship run by oligarchs. Its coming.
99
In addition to education and economic vitality I would add a couple more variables to the blue state formula: more secular humanism which is just as good or better at reinforcing social mores as organized religions; and a tolerant and empathetic view of differences. Divisiveness, tribalism and othering (dehumanizing) might feel good in the passionate moment but are fleeting and will ultimately destroy a society.
58
I don’t disagree about the liberal/conservative cultural divide, but I think urban areas lean blue and rural areas lean red across all the states.
23
But the rural red areas in the blue states benefit from the better funding for education their states provide.
The Youth Risk Behavior Survey was conducted by the National Campaign to Prevent Teen and Unplanned Pregnancy Agency. This is a liberal group which promotes and encourages many forms of contraception. I thought this was an important point to mention.
The southern states with high percentages of sexual activity among teens are not that much higher than states like Montana, North Carolina, Wyoming, Nevada and Arizona. There were 18 states not included in the survey and it would have been helpful to know their statistics.
It would be valuable to have a conservative group conduct a survey with their findings that does not promote contraception use. It would be interesting to have another point of view and not just a progressive one.
4
WMK there is a post on this comment thread by someone stating that her county in Oklahoma is feeling positive about a 33% pregnancy rate in high school girls, because that is a lower rate than the state as a whole. I believe that this would be an example of conservative areas that do not promote contraception use. I imagine that they do not promote sexual activity either, but that is obviously not working.
1
The findings of this study are based on statistical evidence, not a "point of view."
1
Montana, North Carolina, Wyoming, and Arizona are red states (Nevada is a swing). He's talking about red v blue, not south v north.
It is tricky to attach intentions of any sort to scanty statistics. I wouldn't rely on self-reported data such as the percentage of high school students who say they have sex. Unplanned pregnancy rate, which tends to be higher among younger people, is lowest in midwestern states, not New York or California. Abortion rate is much higher in blue states than in red states. All taken together, well, a big unknown.
8
Scanty statistics? Americans are obsessed with statistics and studies about anything and everything. And every year, for decades, those studies back up Kristof's points. You just distain them because they don't make true what you want to be true.
2
Sources?
1
Cite your sources.
1
Unfortunately, Red State voters believe if the U.S. was a theocracy people would forego all the derelict behaviors outlined in this article. As to promoting a secular education that benefits all citizens, Blue States states would outlaw that too.
4
"So let’s drop the wars over family values. "
The only people fighting a "war" were the family values types like Falwell and Reed. The rest of us were trying to do what's best for our kids. They were more interested in political power.
85
An excellent column overall, but it seems a bit unfair to say that liberals are hypocritical about family values. The blue-state families you describe are asking their children to combine personal self-discipline with a lack of judgment of others; what's hypocritical about that? It's the essence of the Christian message, though many of those families might never go near a church.
148
Succint headline and exemplary column; both are spot on.
Most of the churches down here in the deep South are nothing more than cults. Look no further than the defense of Roy Moore as proof. There are those few that do practice the New Testament, although they leave themselves vulnerable to hate. A unitarian church in Knoxville experienced a mass shooting a few years ago because it warmly welcomed gays and lesbians.
Let me caution all: there is the South, and then there’s the rest of the United States. My family and I stay here partly because we believe in the liberal values of peace as diplomacy, that homosexuality and transgenderism are the result of normal biological processes, that immigration, including undocumented immigration, benefits the nation, and well more than what it takes, that we need universal health care, a robust system of public education, and wages indexed to inflation.
And then some. So we stay here to fight for it to take root.
We are proud Southerners, and we aim to progress as we should.
167
Agree with much of that except "wages indexed to inflation" - which could be an economic disaster.
What we need is a means to better divide profits between those at the top (including shareholders) and the common worker. Unions used to provide this; just the threat of unionization kept many employers 'honest' in terms of 'dividing up the pie.' While unions can become too powerful - e.g. when they protect deadbeat workers who need to be fired or tie managers' hands in their attempts to improve the efficiency of work processes - but that's not the current problem. The goal should be about maintaining a 'balance of power' between the many (workers) and the few at the top.
24
Keep up the good fight. I have to admit I was a bit taken aback after we retired to Prescott, Arizona to discover how conservative so many people here are. The good news is that we have found a slew of friends who are a bit more enlightened. We don't hide our political leanings, as a matter of fact we have been involved all along with the political process.
3
Thank you for sharing your struggle to hold ground against red state ridiculousness in your Southern state. A high school friend of mine, who grew up in LA, then moved to my small city in NH in high school, then moved to South Shore of Mass, then finally TN in past few years has changed into a Bible thumping ignorant Libertarian since his move to TN. And he was in his mid-40's when this conversion happened! I continue to be saddened and shocked at his sudden about-face on truth and closing of his mind to anything but the right wingnut "news" and "facts." Glad to hear that there are sane people living down South, keep up the good work!
3
For red state conservatives to place such emphasis on what they term family values, while at the same time exhibiting some embarrassing statistics, is not necessarily a sign of hypocrisy or a case of being blind to ones own failings. It is, I think, one way of addressing those problems in their communities which this editorial highlights. Their blandishments and chastisements, and their call to hold firm to traditions, are directed towards those in their midst, their neighbors and family members whom they fear will succumb to despair, and to drugs, in the struggle to maintain their livelihoods. Travelling in rural Michigan, one sees signs and billboards everywhere exhorting people to attend church and stay off drugs, and these signs are exactly the same as the ones you see in Detroit, in the run-down neighborhoods amid the urban blight. These are all people trying to keep their communities together, to keep them strong and united. All of them could use some help.
8
It appears they need to put a bit more of those resources towards education.
You correctly point out that low income is the major factor in explaining the dismal statistics on child marriage, out of wedlock births, divorce, and other social ills in red states. It is also the reason why Utah performs better than the states where evangelical protestantism predominates. It's not the religion. It's the money. Utah ranks #13 in per capita income, which puts it in the same tier as most blue states. Mississippi, Arkansas, and West Virginia are the poorest, with most of the evangelical heartland not far behind. And things could be better for them if they didn't try so hard to make them worse by continually voting in Republicans who do them nothing but harm.
63
I don't agree that there is "hypocrisy" among Democrats. My impression is that when values are taught with a measure of tolerance, children are more likely to think critically about their choices and less likely to feel the need to "rebel" or hide their actions.
61
I am broadly sympathetic with this article, but the author's reasoning on teen sex, abortion and teens having children is really twisted. He notes as evidence of conservative hypocrisy that red states have some of the highest rates of teen parenthood because teens there have more sex (and resort less to abortion.) But how come he takes teens having children as a statistic to prove him point, along divorce and prostitution rates, while abortion gets only a parenthetical notice? Surely ge realizes that in the eyes if some people teen parenthood is undesirable but not immoral, the way abortion is? I mean, for many conservatives his argument must sound like: red states have higher rates of drunken drivers arrested after causing traffic accidents, which is explained by higher rates of alcoholism (and a lower hit-and-run rate). Mr. Kristof's argument would be more persuasive if it explored inconsistencies between beliefs and behaviors that Americans broadly speaking find objectionable, rarther than relying on an assumption that only one side shares.
3
Teen parenthood frequently leads (exponentially) to generations of poverty and unhappiness. Abortion is also unpleasant, but it doesn't involve decades of suffering.
4
He does NOT say: red states have some of the highest rates of teen parenthood because teens there have more sex (and resort less to abortion.)
It is well known that fundamentalist communities in red states push abstinence, and prevent sex education and access to birth control. So when teens DO have sex, they get caught out because they are ignorant, the way their churches want them to be. Result: higher rates of teen pregnancy.
3
If the Mormons stand out as a conservative group that is somehow ensuring their values are passed down to their children, what are they doing that those in the other "red states" can learn from them? Personally, I believe in openly talking to my children about sex and preventing pregnancy, but even more importantly, respecting the other person. Being raised among generations where sex is not talked about, I wonder if it makes it too diffiult for parents in that culture to raise the issue with their own children.
7
Right #1 among Conservatives is the right to see anything you want, regardless of the evidence. That's especially so when they look in a mirror and see moral paragons, political majorities, and the self-evident truths of their prejudices. Your statistics mean nothing to people who dismiss you, your political leanings, and the whole epistemology that requires them to accede to your facts.
19
You failed to mention that Blue States disproportionately pay more into federal taxes and subsidize the Red States That Blue States have a more highly educated population. Blue States have lower unemployment. Blue States have a lower % of drug addicts per capita. Blue states have less people in prison on a per capita basis. We could go on all day. Let's give the 2 country approach a shot (PLEASE!) and lets see how the Red States fair without our constant help.
78
The big message, and the main reason they voted for Trump, is their sense of victimization. Imstead of taking responsibility for their social troubles they blame liberals and liberal culture. And for a successful billionaire, Trump continually portrays himself as a victim, a celebrity victim that they look up to.
32
Why these differences? Blue states tend to be more wealthy, with more good paying jobs and a more educated citizenry. Blue states have more two family households with fewer pressures (compared to many in red states). Blue states have families that are more likely to talk to each other and reason with each other. Blue states have more educated families and children. Blue states have more stable and stronger family relationships. Blue states have greater community links. In my view, the differences have more to do with these factors than with "family values" differences. This is why Utah is more like a Blue state! David Brooks has focused on the breakdown of the family and community in Trumpland, the fear of the future, the seige mentality. When you are under great stress, live without strong ties to others, are afraid of the future, and concerned about the present, you live for present pleasure and have less discipline in your life. All of this takes its toll on many lives and leads to the breakdown of family values. It's hard to see how this will get better in the future -- we are living in an age of rapid change, and adaptation is not easy for those left behind.
17
Not having ability, resources, or cultural character to adapt to rapid changes, I agree, is a handicap. Areas of denser religious participation tend to have more brains trained to legitimize what can be imagined as reality instead of remaining open minded. Using several thousand year old books as best guides to understand the universe and us in it is also a handicap. Stagnant comes to mind.
1
Having taught in the North and in the South, my experience suggests that Mr. Kristof is as wrong as wrong can be. In my years of teaching in the Bible Belt, I knew of 2 student pregnancies, one white and one black. I couldn't help but know the girls were pregnant -- they kept coming to class until they had their babies.
In my years teaching in the North, I never had a pregnant girl in class. I taught exclusively in Catholic neighborhoods. And I did notice, occasionally, a girl would disappear from class for about nine months and then reappear.
My experience is merely anecdotal. But I came away with the impression that girls in the Bible belt were not shamed for their pregnancies, while Catholic girls in the North were. I wouldn't trust the statistics that Mr. Kristof cites, because I suspect a lot of teen pregnacies are unreported, and I sure do think that the Southerners where I taught had the healthier attitude and approach to the problem.
4
It's pretty hard to fake birth info. Parents age and marital status are collected as part of birth certificate application. That 'hard' info is the basis for sociologists state level reports. I think that data transcends your anecdotal observations.
48
"..... And I did notice, occasionally, a girl would disappear from class for about nine months and then reappear...." Nine months huh? Adult women don't add flesh until mid-term, teenagers until very late term. I think someone doesn't know what he is talking about. Oh, maybe my experience is merely anecdotal.
4
Of course such anecdotal evidence is unreliable.
1
May I add that school districts with "frills", i.e.. music, art, and shop programs may do better to help keep kids from making unfortunate choices? It is only anecdotal, to be sure, but I know many young people who have admitted to me that they only stuck with high school because they loved playing in the band; or all their friends were in choir with them; or it was the easiest way to indulge their passion for theater. At least one of these kids went on to be a successful professional musician, and another went to college hoping to pursue music but became a doctor instead. I am certain that pep band kept far more kids away from drug use and teen age pregnancy than Sunday preaching ever did, although I am a faithful consumer of Sunday preaching myself.
229
I have found this to be true as well.
2
It is amazing that the evangelicals don't learn from the Bible. The forbidden fruit is what led to temptation and the fall of humanity and banishment from Eden (and all that). Temptation, driven by making all that is natural forbidden, is what drives this level of hypocrisy. Don't do as I do, do as I say.
In Greene's catholicism-driven narratives, there is a level of awareness, guilt, and passion. In the hypocritical evangelicals' sagas, there is subterfuge, self-hatred, and self-righteousness. The combustible combination of wanting to be right and wanting that which is perceived to be wrong lead to all kinds of gordian knots. It is what has spawned the age of Trump, and with it, the final breakdown of so-called religious values.
Each time that I cross my arms in self satisfaction as I watch the repercussions on these hypocrites for having banded with the devil and played the role of the self-righteous, I am put back into place by remembering that they too are my brothers and I am not without fault. I don't need the gospel to teach me that, but it seems very much that the hypocrites do.
19
Conservatives are unwilling to adequately support education,and social programs, not because they don't see the value, but because they are selfish, My experience is that they go after every government program that they complain about, but wish tp deny access of these services to others.
49
Uh, Nick, Houston has been "blue" for a long time. Which brings up the major weakness in your argument: You can't infer anything about an individual's behavior based on the voting pattern of the whole state. Bad science. Fake news (I'm afraid).
14
Fake news? How so? It might (or might not) be a good interpretation of the data, but that is opinion, not fact, and therefore can't be fake.
Please, let's let fake news be what it really is: false information. Interpretations we disagree with are not fake, but they might be wrong.
40
Even if it's that's true for Houston, the larger picture still backs up Nick's case. Even science -- you know, fake stuff -- looks at the larger picture to determine cause and effect and then works backward to understand the reasons for the small variations and exceptions.
15
Sarah D.
Examining the data at the state level is much too coarse to find meaningful correlations between voting patterns and crime rates, IF they even exist.
"Red" states may still have very large populations of "Blue" voters and vice versa. It's probably necessary to look at the county level to begin to see both the real voting patterns and the real relative crime rates.
For example, while Trump won about 52.4% of the vote in Texas, making Texas a "red" state, the counties of Dallas, Houston, Austin, El Paso and San Antonio all gave HRC a majority vote.
So does it make sense to look at the teen pregnancy rate in San Antonio, for example, and attribute a relationship between it and "red" Texas?
In the end, the only meaningful way of finding a connection may be to look on a voter-by-voter basis. Are the teenage children of GOP voters getting pregnant at higher rates than those of DEM voters? I don't know and I don't know if that analysis has even been done with a large enough sample to be accurate. But any other basis for analysis is probably faulty from the start.
2
This is a fascinating column--and a refreshing use of data instead of political aspersions.
Because knowing how you write, I don't believe your goal is to castigate, but to educate on how our own perceptions of the "righteousness" of our cause are so often at odds with reality.
In reading all this, what strikes me most is a topic that's increasing making the rounds of opinion pieces, which is, education. The value we place on it, the money we allocate for it, and the admiration for, or derision of, it.
For example, there's a tendency for liberals to pooh pooh the religion of red states, because of the fact it breeds hypocrisy in sexual behavior. But as you point out, it's education, not religion, that is more important.
Even here some liberal posters put down religion in general, but again, isn't equating religion with lack of education pretty arrogant just plain wrong? Some of the smartest people I know are devout, and some of the dumbest nonbelievers. Religion shouldn't spell the difference because it all boils down to education.
In an ideal world, education would be equally valued by both parties. but it clearly isn't. Red states see liberals as immoral atheists and blue states see red ones as ignorant, gun-toting, and overly dependent on churches.
Neither extreme is admirable. If we're too busy pointing fingers how does that help ensure sexual behavior leads to healthier kids and stronger families?
31
No man is an island,
Entire of itself,
Every man is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thy friend's
Or of thine own were:
Any man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in mankind,
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee.
John Donne
6
"isn't equating religion with lack of education pretty arrogant just plain wrong?"
I equate religion with a belief in something for which there is no evidence.
"So the deeper problem seems to be the political choices that conservatives make, underinvesting in public education and social services (including contraception). This underinvestment leaves red states poorer and less educated — and thus prone to a fraying of the social fabric."
In other words being conservative when it comes to spending on things that strengthen us is counterproductive and not conservative at all. It's an invitation to allow ignorance rather than knowledge to make one's decisions, to be unable to think of the possible consequences because one has not been told. Knowledge is power especially when it comes to preventing unwanted pregnancies, understanding others, tolerance, and even making wise decisions.
41
While I don’t doubt the sociology behind this, I am disturbed by the regional emphasis. I have family in both red and blue states. Where they live is immaterial to my affection for them.
In these times, we are more divided that ever - by race , religion, region and class. Much of this acrimony is our fault; some of it is generated by foreign adversaries such as Russia.
All the acrimony causes pain .
It is important that we recognize that America is worth protecting and preserving. The less we point fingers at each other , the less we think of ourselves as red state or blue state, liberal or conservative, the better for our country’s emotional health.
24
So, if we as the more rational side, at least most of the time, stopped pointing fingers and looking down on the red state voters, would they change? Not likely, since they get their hate and vitriol each night from Fox News, and few read newspapers.
This has been noted by others. More affluent (and northern) states offer more opportunities for their residents to embrace middle-class values. Perhaps in a few years, someone will write something resembling Erskine Caldwell's "Tobacco Road" about a declining, drug-addled white corner of the recently-become-red Midwest.
21
What an incredible mis-characterization of liberal, progressive values!
You quote Cahn & Carbone, "Blue family values bristle at restrictions on sexuality ... Their secret, however, is that they encourage their children to simultaneously combine public tolerance with private discipine..."
"Their secret" is the key here. This is no secret. This is no hypocrisy. Calling it such is insulting to progressive minded people.
Progressives like myself believe that we should be striving for a society that allows maximum personal freedom and self-fulfillment, while also building strong, healthy communities. Yes, we encourage those behaviors that lead to greater happiness, to better health, and to more compassion. And yes, we discourage those behaviors that limit happiness, health and weaken compassion.
Teen pregnancies, for example, can do a lot to limit the future possibilities of a young woman. So we don't encourage this.
But if it happens we don't punish and shame. We support and help, to compensate and return that person's life to one of greater health and opportunity, through policies that promote accessible healthcare, childcare and assistance with education.
An aside - look into the teen pregnancy statistics for specific populations within the "Red" states cited, MS, DE, WV, AL, & AK.
Ex.: Mississippi teen pregnancy rates are much higher among blacks than whites, i.e. the "Blue" voters in the "Red" states may have higher teen pregnancy rates.
It's not so simple.
51
Take a look at the rates in Red counties versus Blue counties.
4
In my experience in the North white liberal women of higher SES have the accepting pragmatic stance you describe toward the pregnancies of teens from other societal strata (maybe black or brown girls). Their own daughters are chastised and quietly get abortions. In the South more teenage girls keep the pregnancy regardless of race.
Jp, check out the first link on the page below. It goes to a PDF copy of the report. Check out page 2.
This report was created by the National Conference of State Legislatures.
http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/teen-pregnancy-in-mississippi.aspx
In a sense, the tendency for adolescent unprotected sex outside of marriage (and its attendant consequences) appears to be an “inherited” trait. Though not based on a scientific survey — just knowing of many specific examples — parents who “had to get married” as teenagers seem more likely to affiliate with rock-ribbed fundamentalist churches where the evils of sex are railed against as a prominent sin, perhaps because these parents feel they are guilty sinners on this account and need persistent absolution. At the same time their affiliation with these churches, the churches’ teachings, and the parents’ head-in-the-sand strategy about sex education, makes it easier and more likely for their own teenage children to make the same mistakes with regard to careless or uninformed sex. Fear of sin and condemnation is rarely an effective strategy for resisting innate biological urges.
27
It's easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission.
Mr. Kristof makes it looks like it’s a bad thing. That’s the world conservatives want to live in. Ask them and they’ll tell you flat out that they like the way things are in the red parts of the country.
7
That is probably true but denial of a local or regional society’s problems or letdowns are very much a bipartisan phenomenon. Here we have the in the Ohio River Valley, there seems to be more national coverage of the opiate crisis than local reporting.
5
Not sure what the antecedent to your "it" is. What is bad: teenage pregnancy, lack of education, lack of planned parenthood clinics, lack of other healthcare services that give out information on family planning and birth control, & not expanding medicaid under the ACA. That's what's bad. It's not just red vs blue. And there is a whole bunch of hypocrisy in there to boot, that he doesn't address. So if we think a young woman should grow up to be a president or a doctor or a lawyer or a minister or a teacher or a scientist or a psychologist, the precedent to that is an education. And that is preceded by not having a pregnancy before your 18. So that means we need a culture that believes in birthcontrol, and access to such. Some of these evangelical religions (that happen to be in the south, for the most part) will argue that providing birth control to employees is against their religion. And that religion than prevents an employee access to birthcontrol and therefore access to education and therefore access to a career that she would find fulfilling. The old adage "barefoot and pregnant" is still true unfortunately.
4
Yes, it has to be binary for many--"right" or "wrong". But, Kristof shows more respect than many for "conservatives". Education!!
Of the top 25 counties (including tribal agencies and a few state police reporting) with the most murders in the US 92% were Democratic in the election of 2016. Of the top 63 counties with the most murders, which accounts for half of the murders in the US, 89% are Democratic. Even in Red states a number of counties with cities are Democratic. These counties are the primary contributors to the murder rate in the US. Of the counties with zero murders 90% are Republican, which accounts for a bit half of all counties .
4
Source, please? And proof that political affiliation is the cause, and not merely a function of higher population?
15
JOhn, I'm glad you mentioned this, because many of us blue-staters will read your stats and think, "And that's why we're so desirous of more gun control!" Yet we don't extend this same interpretation to red-staters on their issues. In other words, if I lived in a place with very high teen birth rates and prostitution, I might very well consider those my hot-button topics. In other words, Kristof's interesting stats could be used to provide insight rather than finger-wagging in understanding why the perception of our nations' critical issues is so varied by red/blue.
3
Kathi -
Causation is another entire issue, incredibly complicated and hard to pin down. There's really no point in talking about it in this context until we've at least established reliable statistical data on a county by county basis.
But the statistical data about crimes and locality are easy to come by. The FBI and DOJ websites are a good place to start. Then you'll need to cross reference that data to maps showing election results by county, also easy to find, but from different websites.
The Washington Post article linked to below has done some of that already.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/crime-rates-by-county/
Regarding poverty/ethnicity and crime - Some of the most dangerous counties are very poor urban areas with large minority populations. So poverty may be as much or more of a contributor to crime than ethnicity. On the other hand, some of the very poorest counties are NOT urban, but rather the rural areas of Appalachia, which are almost entirely populated by whites and these counties have well BELOW average rates of violent crime.
So while poverty may be a cause, it seems to be much more important in urban rather than rural areas.
So, are poor urban blacks committing crimes at a higher rate than poor rural whites? It appears very much so. None of that, of course, answers the question, "Why?"
3
My rule of thumb, the only rule that has never failed me: always beware of a man or woman who wears either their religion or politics or both on their sleeve for there is a good chance they’ve something less than wholesome to hide.
120
David Thomas, if wearing one's politics "on their sleeve" is taken to the excess of turning a blind eye to injustice, then the person who does so has become a "Good German." If you are not familiar with the term, Google it. Those who opt to quietly and safely ignore or acquiesce to evil are complicit in allowing it to exist. Sometimes actions and motivations are too complicated to be discounted with a phrase or aphorism. To turn that around, would it be okay for me to describe all political disengagement as lily-livered? I've been politically quiet and non-combative my entire adult life, but now feel the need to regularly express my disgust and concern about an ignorant, mean spirited, and authoritarian President and his political party who are in my opinion moving our country toward fascism and theocracy.
2
Great article, a lot to learn from it. Too bad the majority of people who will read this article are blue state liberals, not those who are red state conservatives.
25
This Red State conservative reads it and sees that Kristof ignores the Red county versus Blue county aspect of it. Krugman sees a coarse grained, state wide correlation between state wide election results and teenage behavior.
From: https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdhhs/Teen_Pregnancy_in_Michigan_Upda...
"Despite improvements in the teen birth rate across all race and ethnicity groups, large disparities persist. In 2015, the teen birth rate among non-Hispanic black teens was 2.6 times higher than it was for non-Hispanic white teens. Likewise, the birth rate among Hispanic teens was 2.1 times higher than non-Hispanic white teens. Additionally, non-Hispanic black and Hispanic teens who had a birth in 2015 were 48% and 25% more likely, respectively, to have had a previous live birth compared to non-Hispanic white teens."
Then go ahead and take a look at the Red versus Blue voting patterns of the racial demographic groups in Michigan.
Kristof ignores spatial non-stationarity and proceeds to conclusions that reinforce his political agenda. But then again, I hold people responsible for their own behavior...
5
Jp,
I'm a "blue" state life-long Democrat voter and I also see Kristol's false logic, and I have also called him out on it in my other comments.
Hard facts are not partisan. They are simply reality. The better grasp we have of reality the better chance we have of surviving it.
Taking an issue such as teen pregnancy, for example - it is a hard fact that those countries which have comprehensive sex education for children from a very young age have far lower levels of STDs and pregnancies in their teen populations.
Education is what we should be talking about, not "blue" and "red" states.
One problem is the term "family values." What does that really mean? Among the politically conservative its simply a substitute for no abortions, up-tight sexual mores, and anti-gay. That is, it actually isn't what many liberals would consider true family values. To me, family values means providing a safe environment for your children and a safety net for those who are less fortunate. It also means tolerance for others including religious beliefs and lifestyle choices.
The conservative "value" that is most problematic, in my opinion, is not openly discussing sexual behavior and pregnancy prevention techniques in your home and not allowing sex education in the schools. Human behavior will not change for the better due to ignorance.
145
Great column! I'm so glad that you're pointing out the hypocrisy of the "moral majority." Unfortunately, if the current tax/health plan passes, the "invisible plurality" (those who voted for anyone but Trump) will fade under the weight of the oppressive demands of double taxation on property, a brain drain in our universities as students will be taxed on free tuition, & increasingly difficult access to health care.
18
The next article should be about how earlier vs later childbearing and marriage relate to graduation, employment and earning expectation.
25
We already have the answers to that question.
2
There is a certain amount of chicken-and-egg argument here. Which comes first, the chicken or the egg? Unless you go back to (very) ancient history, neither; they support each other. Economics, religion, morality talk, eduction, poverty, child-rearing practices, ..., all feed each other to keep some states backward in different ways all at once.
A few days ago I read a Times op-ed describing the way girls in evangelical families in Alabama (I'm just citing what I remember) are trained to live as the helper of a man and, as part of the training, to accept as early teens some kind of intimate relation with older men (like Roy Moore when in his 30s).
9
Why do we act like high schoolers having sex is a bad thing? Sex is a normal, healthy part of life, and while not all people are ready in high school, many (even most) people are ready for sex by the time they hit 12th grade. As long as they're using protection and being safe, we shouldn't stigmatize teenagers exploring their own sexuality. It leads to a lot less confusion and hostility in high school and later in life.
48
Clark, the key words here are "using protection and being safe." I'm thinking that many high school kids don't always think of protection and safety when they are in certain situations where their bodies are doing the thinking for them.
7
I don't disagree about teenagers, but do you have any empirical evidence for "most"? I wonder when I see the juvenile behavior many in their 40's and 50's exhibit. Why do we think 17 year old kids have better cognitive constructs for sexual activity decision-making?
High school students do indeed "think of protection and safety" if they're educated about sex and have access to birth control. Indeed, in places where these things are provided, they practice protection and safety on a regular basis. Thus, the lower teen birth rates.
1
Excellent article. Living in AZ, we are seeing, on a daily basis, what underfunding of education, lack of respect for all people, regardless of their sex, gender or origin and an unhealthy belief that there should be no background checks before a person can purchase any type of fire arms, is doing to our society. Spouse and child abuse, shootings to settle disputes, are all on almost a daily basis. State legislatives, will give tax breaks to corporations, but will not fund education.
70
I take exception to the charge of "hypocrisy" on the grounds that “Blue family values bristle at restrictions on sexuality, insistence on marriage or the stigmatization of single parents. Their secret, however, is that they encourage their children to simultaneously combine public tolerance with private discipline, and their children then overwhelmingly choose to raise their own children within two-parent families.”
That's not hypocrisy. That's empathy. Understanding that your own family structure is not the only valid family structure, that choices can be constrained by circumstances or expanded by privilege, and that the law should not hold up your personal lifestyle at the expense of others - there's nothing there that's contradictory to raising children in a married, two-parent household. Indeed, teaching our children to respect the lives of others as a baseline family value may make it easier for them to sustain their own marriages in the future.
301
Thank you, I was confused by that supposed "hypocrisy" too. I understood that as simply meaning that liberals practice discipline at home, rather than expecting the government or religion to do it, and their methods are proving effective. In an ideal world, isn't that what we should all be doing?
6
Exactly. My husband and I have been married almost 60 years. We worked on our marriage, we worked on learning how to communicate and we had a barrier many people don't, my husband immigrated here to the U.S. in 1956. So we also had cultural and language barriers. But we were willing to do the work. We had 3 sons who are good, moral people. Not a divorce between them. And we were definitely not among the upper middle class. Nor or we religious. What we do have are parents who gave both of us a good, moral education, i.e. treat others the way you wish to be treated and be open and honest. Oh, I forgot, we also lived in California until our retirement.
1
I recall the Bush campaign framing John Kerry's character as that of the immoral liberal from Massachusetts where no one reads the Bible. My research showed similar results to Mr. Kristof's findings that the South talked family values while failing to live them. Massachusetts by the way scored high in many areas .
32
Excuse me, but where is the "measure of hypocrisy" in "“Blue family values bristle at restrictions on sexuality, insistence on marriage or the stigmatization of single parents. Their secret, however, is that they encourage their children to simultaneously combine public tolerance with private discipline, and their children then overwhelmingly choose to raise their own children within two-parent families.” It's called treating others with empathy and dignity even if their lives worked out differently. Sounds to me like just wanted to bend over backwards to temper any positive comment on liberal values and secular priorities.
29
Culture, economics, politics. A circle. Pick a starting point, the next step is derived and then you can complete the cycle. Low taxes means poor schools, whose graduates don't formulate the concept that cutting taxes hurts their children's choices.
19
Start with culture, where it really starts.
2
I have made this argument many times to conservative friends. Advocating acceptance of non-traditional lifestyles neither devalues traditional lifestyles, nor signals personal preference. Too often conservatives see acceptance of gay marriage (for example) as an attack on the institution of traditional marriage, and those who advocate it as part of a homosexual agenda. The reality is that many liberals have great respect for traditional values and choose those values for themselves. But they recognize that enforcement of traditional values leads to the unjust oppression of those outside of societies structures of power.
163
Fascinating, but not surprising. Glad I live in NY.
17
While I agree that almost all Americans want marriages that last, I have some disagreement on whether or not they want them to be "committed". If by committed Mr. Kristof means monogamous, then I believe he's half-right. Almost all Americans want a lasting marriage in which their partners are monogamous. They seem to wish to reserve the right to stray for themselves, whether or not they find the opportunity.
7
This is an explosively good and relevant analysis which must get OUT THERE! Hopefully some Dem leaders will pick this up and run with it in their states, and especially make the point about the economic differences and perpetuation of these negative social realities. Thank you Mr Kristof.
13
It has always been easy for me to stand back and see the problem. I was raised and educated in the Deep South by New York Liberals. Although there is so much that was positive and special, I could never fully embrace the culture, and many looked at me with suspicion. I can see how hard it would be to go against the grain in that environment, so my expectations for change are not high.
It is set in stone. Keep them uneducated, keep them afraid via religious Evangelical training, keep a scapegoat in front of them at all times, and make sure they pay taxes to support your lifestyle.
And praise them for their refusal to give in and live like a Liberal Democrat.
24
I've been writing about this topic for a decade and a half. The key fact that Mr. Kristof ignores is that in the United States, behavioral statistics of states are largely driven by their racial composition. Vermont, for example, has low illegitimacy and crime rates, for example, less because it votes left than because its demographics are overwhelmingly white. (Compare Vermont to more politically moderate New Hampshire for illustration.)
If you adjust for race, the question becomes more complicated. Among white populations within states, class matters. For example, in New England, Maine and Rhode Island tend to have somewhat more downscale whites than the other four states.
But if you don't even dare mention the word "race" in your column, Mr. Kristof, you won't get anywhere intellectually.
7
I would submit that significant statistical "drill down" is needed to empirically substantiate terms like "downscale".
1
Thank you for all you have done and are doing for our people.
1
Vermont demographics comprise of 94.1% white.
West Virginia demographics indicate 94.6% white.
Perhaps, you can reconsider your practice of cherry-picking anecdotal data.
3
A lot of behavior is related to economics and education.
Every statistic tells us that that the huge swath of red states in the south and midwest represents areas that are lower on the socio-economic scale.
Better education leads to better economics, and better economics leads to better education.
The answer to the stated social problems is clear: a more fair distribution of individual wealth, and more sensible distribution of national and state wealth. More money put into education and less put into things like our bloated military budget would be a good step in the right direction, as would a more progressive tax regime. The latter will only happen when our campaign finance system is totally upended and rich individuals and corporations no longer call the shots in Washington DC.
28
Very enlightening OpEd piece, compiling and summarizing studies of real data, for which we are lucky that people in our society are collecting.
However, I have one misgiving regarding the suggestion or allegation of "blue-state hypocrisy" on the topic of family values. Somehow, it has become more commonplace for some people to equate tolerance and understanding of situations such as single-parent families with blanket promotion of such.
Perhaps, the difference between understanding/tolerance and promotion is a nuanced distinction for some, but these things are not the same. Fortunately, the more prevalent emphasis in the blue areas of the country is on the economic, social and emotional health of families, however that is arrived at. The progress of an enlightened society depends on it.
7
For the Democratic constituencies, there is no hypocrisy between our behavior and political platform, as there is, though, with these Republican constituencies. We don't have an agenda for what other people do.
No one is pushing young people to have sex, and certainly don't encourage it before anyone is ready, but support comprehensive sex ed and having protection available, to reduce unwanted pregnancies and STDs. We don't force anyone to have an abortion, but want that as a safe, legal option. If it is feasible to have parents in a healthy relationship and married, that is great for the kids and adults, but we won't ostracize single parents or divorcees. And we definitely don't scapegoat the justice of non heterosexual marriage for the failures of heterosexual unions.
There is a world of difference in the schisms between what red and blue states, respectively, practice and preach.
73
This is a informative op-ed that is well researched and presented. I’m afraid those in the red states will ignore the facts because they are considered fake news. The red state politicians seem to only want to preserve their own jobs and the least educated their constituents are the more successful they will be.
11
These are very interesting facts and I hope more media publish them.
Unfortunately, I don't think most conservative, Red, Evangelicals will believe them.
13
Sad to say, "it's been this way" since I was a kid (or longer; I'm now 77). Poor people are often under-educated and more-easily succumb to the siren songs of the evangelicals whose preachers, in turn, are of the P. T. Barnum School of the Bible. (Lightning may strike any minute now, but the risk is low: It hasn't hit the White House yet; but if ever . . . )
And, Mr. Kristof, you left out the business about guns with these folks . . .
20
Good article:
This pediatrician, however, doesn't find any evidence of "hypocrisy" in "Blue Stater's" encouraging tolerance of others choices (or failings, depending) while also encouraging their own children to be disciplined. That's just good parenting (teaching self-discipline) -- and passing on a moral framework (teaching a value: "tolerance") that they value.
Also, the reason for the statistics you cite in the Red States may well be related to education and poverty. However, it might also be that "Authoritarian" techniques using black and white versions of "Right and Wrong" to compel behavior do not work that well to actually constrain or shape behavior when raising children.
114
Hypocrisy would be publicly taking a position of tolerance and then castigating their own children for either being tolerant of others or for doing something their parents actually disapproved of. ... So if you have evidence that "Blue Staters" publicly saying they are tolerant of one of the social activities you mention but then privately disown their own children for partaking in those activities, then you'd have evidence of hypocrisy.
1
California is tagged in the media and in US cultural lore as being hedonistic, but having lived here for 50 years, I would say it's not. The "Summer of Love" was mainly about teens from other states "camping out" in San Francisco.
California built an incredible educational system in the 50's. K-12 and the UC University system. I went to a snooty New England Prep school growing up and then went to UC Berkeley (as it was one of two US schools that had a department in a rare form of mathematics) full of arrogance. I was shocked to discover California kids are smart, and well educated.
And still are. When you teach a progressive curriculum, one that doesn't have a conservative political agenda, and have school libraries that don't ban books, you end up with relatively "adult" children. California teens don't jump into bed, because it's not forbidden behavior, and they are raised to understand there is an emotional component to sex.
They are allowed to make decisions, and they are taught to make decisions. They are treated as "young adults". I see the same thing in European countries where I have worked for many years.
60
The overwhelming problem for religious people is that their beliefs lead to bad real world problem solving. People are much better off with a secular, fact-based approach to decision making, rather than the religious view that God may save them from bad choices. That is why, world-wide, secular nations, states and communities do better.
54
"Blue family values bristle at restrictions on sexuality, insistence on marriage, or the stigmatization of single parents." That is not a "measure of hypocrisy" as you suggest, Nick. I think blue families are more likely to be honest about all three of these items. A) they talk openly about sexuality with their kids-- discuss the value of sharing this with someone you really care for, warn against sexual diseases, help the kids obtain BC when/ if relevant. B) They are not insistent upon marriage as a component of being sexually active, but they strongly recommend marriage as a must for having children; and as a prescription for a happy life, kids or not. Plus, blue parents in intact marriages are active role models for their kids.(walking the walk) C) Blue parents probably don't "stigmatize" single moms, but they sure talk about that role as a likely path to poverty and a lonely & hard life. If most are as honest as I was with my son, I firmly explained that I wasn't interested in raising a grandchild as its de facto parent.
Finally, many blue parents become parents only when they are mature enough to communicate points a,b,c, AND when they have sowed their personal wild oats and thus are ready to live in a long-term, committed marriage.
30
Amen to less Bible thumping and more paying attention to supporting education and social needs! Here in Texas, we have a gracious plenty of the former and a sad lack of the latter. Our chief Bible thumpers are, unfortunately, Governor Abbott and Lt. Governor Dan Patrick, but they don’t do much in the way of supporting public education. And, they are all about taking away the health care the Affordable Care Act (Obamacare) has given to so many Texas families!
Regarding your student travel contest: If you visit Bangladesh, I hope a meeting with Nobel Prize winner Muhammad Yunus will be on the agenda. Mr. Yunus is a personal hero because he promoted micro loans for poor people who could not qualify
for Bank loans. These loans are now widely used to help the poor create small businesses. He has recently written a book about capitalism’s main flaw, the almighty dollar being the principal measure of our country’s wellbeing.
13
I read the book referenced in this article, and recommend for information and statistics about this problem. As a person who was raised in the south (in a very religious setting), moved to the West Coast, and then moved back to the south, here are the differences that floored me when I came back.
Education. They just don't value it as much. There's an older generation who "made it" without much education--so they don't care so much about their kids' educations. Southerners consider education a privilege not a right or a necessity. People in my state don't want to educate other people's children, either. I knew working class families out west that made huge sacrifices to send kids to college--southern families thought that was kind of nutty.
Early marriage/parenthood. When my daughter was a teen, teaching her about contraception was top priority. Avoiding teen pregnancy was another top priority. By any means necessary. Most up-North moms I knew felt the same. We cried when we filled those birth control prescriptions, but we did it. When I moved back to the south, people were shocked that I'd encouraged my unmarried offspring to use contraception. Literally shocked. They want purity or....what? Grandchildren living in poverty, it seems.
The exception is the professional class--to the GOP, the "elites." They "get it." They form a subculture here, one much despised by the rest, who think the so-called elites have a secret corrupt deal for their own kids. Very sad.
78
Poverty, religion and lack of facts are a toxic mix.
The US will not be strong my any measure with poorly educated/indoctrinated youth. Job training, a sense of purpose, financial achievement would correct but not when adults are failing their own children, mostly girls, by sanctioning child marriage. It will take a lot of work to change this - our DC leadership is not up to the task and responsible for many of these social ills siding with pharma/opioids, cutting education, funneling money to 1%.
Shameful leadership though they do a great job of protecting their own.
7
It may not be hypocrisy. It may be as simple as the fact that in blue states, the moral codes have been internalized to the point that no one feels compelled to preach them whereas in red states, people see the results of sexual morality being violated and demand greater adherence to traditional values.
6
Yes. It is a supreme irony that those who bleat “America First” are doing so much to make their slogan no longer possible.
4
The liberal impulse may be to gloat: Those conservatives thunder about “family values” but don’t practice them. But there’s also perhaps a measure of hypocrisy in the blue states. As Cahn and Carbone put it: “Blue family values bristle at restrictions on sexuality, insistence on marriage or the stigmatization of single parents. Their secret, however, is that they encourage their children to simultaneously combine public tolerance with private discipline, and their children then overwhelmingly choose to raise their own children within two-parent families.”
I'm sorry, I will have to admit, I am missing the hypocrisy here. Cahn & Carbone claim that it is hypocrisy claim that it is hypocritical to disagree with restrictions, which are by their very nature are involuntary, while voluntarily living generally within the rules those restrictions are intended to enforce. I think they misunderstand, it's not the rules that are objected to, it's their being made mandatory.
10
It's certainly not hypocritical to oppose government moral codes while supporting individual moral codes. If it were, Mormons would be more hypocritical than liberals, and many of the "small-government" types would be non-hypocrites because they practice immorality.
3
I believe any attempt to change the culture in the South begins with an appeal to young, Southern women. They have more power than they think. Change and broaden their life choices and you will see a change. This begins at school. Empowering girls to choose education over early childbearing is a start.
PS underinvestment in public education is a countrywide problem.
6
Liberals don't "believe in comprehensive sex education and reliable birth control"; they know it and practice it.
As opposed to biblically-concussed conservatives, who 'believe' the Bible is the 'word of God', who believe that pre-marital sex is 'sinful', who refuse to fully acknowledge the reality of scientific evolution, who finance 'abstinence' ignorance and under-finance sex education and public healthcare and equate many forms of birth control with abortion.
What we have is conservative religious cults forming the bedrock of religious Republican states that blindly believe in disproven and discredited theories while remaining scornful and/or allergic to liberal reality.
When one is raised on cultured religious stupidity, one is bound to wind up with dumb family values.
Religion teaches people to believe while flushing thinking and reality down the toilet.
That's why so many evangelicals and fake-phony-fraudulent "Christians' believed they saw the holy image of Jesus in a thrice-married, morally bankrupt philander-groper-tax-dodger-and-consumer-fraud-expert-Know-Nothing when he descended from his golden escalator to share his divine Mexican-Muslim-Misogyny wisdom with the religiously Republican uneducated masses.
Fraudulent family and political values are what hold the Republican Confederacy tightly together in a bond of fake fellowship.
"Let us pray" for more cultured stupidity, teenaged births, divorce, guns, minimum wage work, 'free-dumb' and Grand Old Poverty.
395
Well written--keep these commentaries coming!
1
Freedom and personal responsibility are two side of the same coin. If you really believe in getting government out of personal health decisions, that has to include family planning. It doesn't get a lot more personal than that.
59
Excellent article. Thank you. You do a nice job of acknowledging how complex the issue are, and of tying them back to social values. These differences seem to be as much about the economics of investing in good child care, good pre-natal care, good education, social safety nets, and science and evidence based policy. I am willing to be taxed for the good of the community. I live and work in a blue city in a blue state on the blue coast, and it feels to me that we have a shared consensus about liberal policy and support for individuals and individuals rights. This is true in spite of the fact that many people who live here are deeply religious. They simply tend to be in churches that are also liberal. Many of our businesses support higher business taxes and/or donate heavily to the community. Our laws are liberal (almost all of us are proudly sanctuary cities or inclusive cities or otherwise liberal in law and statute and even methods of policing). The core difference seems to be more about belief that we are all tied together economically and we all - to some extent - swim together, than it is about religion.
378
I agree - 1/2 my family is quite liberal and it comes from our (Irish-American) Catholicism. The things you outline allow for more people to enter adulthood with opportunities particularly for education. We've met people from other countries but also from the rural South where having a baby and/or getting married is how you show that you're an adult.
4
A thought-provoking article, indeed. But.... (and nothing ever counts that's written before the "but") quantifying the conduct of groups in order to reach conclusions about the way individuals in those groups practice their values very likely does a great deal of injustice to vast numbers of principled individuals within those categories. Furthermore, if we are going to generalize about the conduct of groups vs. the rhetoric of the way we are encouraged to think of them, we will find indications of troubling behaviors attached to a number of specific subsets of people. I'm not sure this is a good road toward common understanding or as a means of achieving better results for society as a whole.
9
On the other hand, statistically speaking, the numbers show that red state girls are more likely to become pregnant out of wedlock, men more likely to visit prostitutes, and couples more likely to divorce. Since we've been inundated with 'family values', 'small town people', and 'middle America', as the protectors of core values, Mr. Kristof makes a good point. A number of good points.
61
I think you misunderstand the statistics. Of course, there are individual families in the red states that apply good values. Just as there are individual families in blue states, like the one you and I live in, that make horrible decisions. The point is, the poor decision-makers are, to a greater extent, is red states. As far as whether the analysis helps us achieve "better results for society as a whole," that's something statistics cannot address.
4
It's funny that you should raise this issue, Nick. Years ago, when I spent some time in the South, after which I moved to Massachusetts, it was noticeable the lack of pornography stores in Massachusetts. Not that I was looking for that; it's just that there were so many pornography sites in the South that their absence in Massachusetts was dramatic.
Of course it is Massachusetts that banned "Leaves of Grass" at one time, but it is also a very blue state, I think we'll all agree. It was nice not having all those porn places around.
There is the joke about marrying one's cousin in the rural South. There is a lot of young age marriage. Maybe their argument is that there is so much sin here, that they are fighting it. But you are right Nick, a better approach is to tackle it with constructive programs and education.
I guess that their social problems are rooted in an endemic libertarianism. Someone once told me that in Texas, they leave you alone. It's true for the South. That means no sex education classes in high school.
Well, we can read Faulkner, Tennessee Williams or Erskine Caldwell to learn more. The South's is a social consciousness that differs from most blue state norms, and this is true for red states with lower education.
There isn't the will, nor even desire, to construct social institutions that can improve the lives of people through legislation. That's the responsibility of the churches. Social programs undermine church power.
175
WOW! Let me add that we saw the same failures due to their choice of keeping government away recently in Florida as well as in Texas. Those hurricanes wouldn't have been so fierce in their destruction were not for the lack of city planning.
18
I’d be interested to know the history of the lack of interest in civic, non-religious life in the South. My impression is that it is related to antipathy toward providing any social welfare for minorities. I wonder if it was different before the civil war when, as slaves, African American would have been excluded from the benefits of any civil safety nets enacted. Our nation has a long long way to go.
5
When I lived in the south I noticed Atlanta had a huge number of stripper clubs and other places had drive-through liquor stores. Of course Kentucky, home of bourbon, also had dry counties. And don't get me started on New Orleans. Family values?
1
It's not just public tolerance toward sex that makes the difference in progressive communities. Its public tolerance for sex education that emphasizes healthy and safe sexual behaviors.
Once kids get the whole story, including risks of pregnancy and STDs, they become more cautious. Teen pregnancy in northern European countries, where sex is treated in a frank and open way, is far lower. The US teen pregnancy rate is 8 times higher than in Switzerland.
Sexual dysfunction breeds in the darkness.
633
"...researchers found exceptionally low teen pregnancy, birth and abortion rates in Switzerland (8, 2 and 5 per 1,000 15–19-year-olds, respectively), where long-established sex education programs, free family planning services and low-cost emergency contraception are widely available, and sexually active teens are expected to use contraceptives."
https://www.guttmacher.org/news-release/2015/teen-pregnancy-rates-declin...
112
Exactly right. We have 14 children, seven sons and seven daughters, including five in college, six in high school, and one in middle school. All of them have attended the same high school, which requires students to take classes in health and sexuality that are comprehensive and focus on facts. All of them have shown great maturity and restraint in becoming sexually active.
2
I wouldn't really consider Switzerland a Northern European country.
1
The GOP has done an excellent job of underfunding education, particularly in the red states you mention. I firmly believe that this is a long term strategy, not just a happenstance. It is quite clear that a rabble can be manipulated more easily than educated citizens. What is also distressing, is how complicit the Christian evangelical preachers have been in all this. They have made a deal with the devil and, if we are to believe their theology, they will be paying the price for it one day soon.
450
The GOP's underfunding of education is simply a continuation (or revival?) of the strategy of the Virginia Cavaliers in colonial times, which was to keep their underlings from learning to read. Information is power. Plus ca change . . . . . .
6
Not soon enough...
1
While I understand statistics, life is different in big cities compared to rural areas. But your editorial argument just gets people fighting about "religious freedom", welfare, guns, health care etc. with each side claiming things that are not really the issue.
Make the argument that education, social services for the poor and lower middle class, minimum wage, health care etc. all lead to better social values.
"Bible Thumping" politicians promote things that lead to family values disfunction. Denying women's health care is a good example of something that is just wrong (Doesn't have to be abortion but all health care.) The ACA and reasonable changes that increase coverage not reduce it are very pro social values. We need to argue these things based on social values and not all the hot bed political sides to issues.
For example, we need to provide health care to as many people as possible with reasonable costs. Then work from this towards a fair solution.
Our education system is atrocious. Education costs too much and thus people can't get the education require to meet labor needs of our country and companies and more importantly their own lives. Huge college debt is just wrong and making the process a business for financial companies is also wrong. At least college debt should be at interest rates that are no more than the cost of bonds. How about 4% rates.
My point is social values concern should translate into proper support such as education, healthcare, etc.
33
A well written, well researched, article, but there appear to be two more important factors that were overlooked, education and poverty. Many of the blue states have higher levels of educational attainment, and lower levels of poverty. Must studies have shown that both contribute to improved levels of stable families.
I suspect that both contribute more to strong family values than religious orientation.
81
Other way around. Earlier sexual activity, childbirth and marriage correlate negatively with school completion and lifetime earnings.
When girls from conservative religious families get pregnant, but then manage to get married, their parents' attitude is usually, "Problem solved." Never mind the years of abuse, unplanned pregnancies, neglect and abandonment that may follow.
18
Part of the reason blue states are richer is because they vote to build more infrastructure and fund education. So what came first? Voting for a better future, or having the money and education to value children? Because I am getting the vibe that red states treat children like a punishment, whereas blue states try to treat them like a gift.
22
Sailor 40, Mr. Kristoff addressed both education and poverty and summarized that these two factors were the root of the disparities he writes about. When states are more willing to fund education and provide access to birth control so that young marriage and motherhood do not curtail education, there is less poverty. More education and economic stability lead to stronger marriages and families. That is his premise. He made the point that you thought he missed.
1
The battles between these two groups will continue until we can reach some sort of shared way to address these problems. Neither group is wrong in their beliefs, but the various OUTCOMES as a result of these disparate beliefs are the problems. I don't want to see teenage pregnancy, child marriages, higher divorce rates, single parent families.
So HOW do we come to a place where each group can work toward a shared common better outcome?
10
Some of this probably results from the majority of Red States being more economically deprived. Sadly, when the voters go to the polls, they keep electing representatives that aver the very ones who are responsible for their stunted economic growth, funding for education, healthcare and social services. If the could only erase those hard lines that have been so politically isolating and have REAL conversations, perhaps we would all benefit.
113
Yes, the red states are more economically deprived. But part of the reason is having babies as teens.
As I said, Linda Gies....healthcare, education!
1
I think there is an additional reason that kids in red states have more early pregnancies and marriages (which may go hand-in-hand among Conservatives). Parents who profess strict moral codes that they expect their children to adhere to, whether the parents do or not, are less likely to have their children follow what they say. Children, as we all know, are more likely to do what they see their parents do.
More liberal parents in any state are morely likely to have their children come to them or another responsible adult to discuss contraception, marriage and other issues. I know mine did.
217
@Barbara: Marian Wright Edelman, founder of the Children’s Defense Fund, said, "The best contraceptive is a real future."
Girls in conservative cultures are taught that motherhood is their only true and worthy calling in life. So why wait? They have nothing else to work towards.
39
Agreed. The more judgemental and authoritarian the parent the less likely are children to internalize their values. Children of controlling parents are less likely to come to them for advice: If you think you will get the "stick" you will go around rather than toward parental guidance. The results are risky sex, homophobia, and other problems.
Acceptance and compassion have to accompany clear rules, and while these are not exclusively "liberal" values, they pervade liberals' views. Whatever one's core values and beliefs, understanding and discussion are the keys to good parenting, and control and judgement are sure ways to create only surface compliance. We see a lot of the latter in moralistic thumpers, which is how hypocrisy develops.
That said, we can find a lot of such authoritarian hypocrisy across both Red and Blue states, within which there is a lot of diversity.
2
Red state hypocrisy is something that we’re all well aware of, but it’s interesting to see it quantified. It certainly explains the lack of discernment required of an electorate that put an ignorant hypocrite in the White House. It would be amusing if it didn’t cause so much misery.
It’s one thing to preach family values, and it’s another to actually embody them. Whacking a child with the Bible is not going to do the job. That requires a commitment to education, providing information about sex and recognizing that birth control is not a sin, but the surest way to keep people out of poverty.
But red-state Republicans aren’t quick to change the status quo, because they realized long ago that courting the low-information voter is very profitable. When Republicans deny science, promote creationism and pledge to defund Planned Parenthood, they’re wooing the very people who will be most damaged by these proposals.
Parenthetically, the fact that Mormons walk the walk is not really that complicated. The religion is hard to distinguish from a cult, but instead of walling people in, the community is held together by tying almost every aspect of daily life tightly to the religion. They talk “love,” but tolerance is contingent. A 12-year-old girl addressed a congregation recently. She said she was gay, and was asking for their understanding. Her microphone was unplugged while she was speaking.
Feel the love.
756
Two thumbs up for your comment. I just want to add, Republicans haven't just courted low information voters they are doing their best to ensure their base is not only low information but wrong (incorrect) information voters.
Fox News, Alex Jones and the rest are happily making money off their gullible base while using them to push through an agenda that will largely economically destroy their base.
It's sad and frustrating to watch.
19
Mormons also get tremendous support--which is entirely dependent upon a web of compliance--from within the church. They have their own welfare system that steps in at the loss of a job for example. Every aspect of life is “supported” (controlled) by various groups within the church organization. It helps that there is little interference in whatever they do, since they have historically dominated Utah demographically.
6
"Red state hypocrisy is something that we’re all well aware of, but it’s interesting to see it quantified."
--My own experience, while anecdotal, is that blue states are hardly any better.
I've spent seven years--seven--trying to get even a single visit for a disabled friend from a home health care aide. That's seven years and well over one hundred phone calls, for someone permanently disabled and on SSI Disability.
When it came to finding housing, there's no public money. He'll have to wait at least two years for a one bedroom apartment, and that was after dozens more phone calls where, when pressed, several social workers admitted to me, "yes, I expect, then, if no one will take him in in the meantime, that he'll be left to die."
I wouldn't pat yourself on the back just yet, gemli. There's plenty of ugliness to go around, sad to say.
3
Good article, and was glad to see it stated at the end that red states' failure to live up to family values is mainly due to economic problems. And other problem mentioned, the failure of red states to invest in public education and social services may become a problem with blue states as well if the deduction for state and local income taxes are taken away by the Republican Congress, who is mainly comprised of red state politicians.
464
John R., good comment, and it connects with this observation: the Christian right and conservative columnists often preach that the best path to prosperity is an intact family within marriage. That's exactly backward. One of the biggest impediments to keeping or forming an intact family is poverty.
316
I'm not sure it's mainly due to economic problems. It may be more due to cultural problems, which are part of the reason for economic ones.
18
Excellent comment, John R. I was very interested in what the 'comment' section would turn up--so far, 5 comments, and all are sensible. Way to go!!
9