I came of age in Northern California in the late sixties where free love (polyamory was almost the norm) Fifty years down the line I have determined that monogamy, a close, constant and dependable relationship is natural and pleasurable to human beings. But this kind of monogamy should not be confused with sexual fidelity, which is decidedly unnatural to our species, flying in the face of our desires and instincts. The challenge is finding a way to reconcile these two views. People of goodwill who love each other have a chance to rise to the occasion, but nobody said a fulfilling life is easy. One of my favorite quotes is by Margaret Mead. "Being jealous does not prove how much you love somebody, it just shows how insecure you are."
22
My mother had Alzheimer's. The last two years she lost the ability to communicate. My stepfather cared for her. I helped, but wasn't there 24/7. She was 86 yo when she died almost two years ago. He was 79. He is dating again and is going to get married. I've told his fiancé how lucky she is!
20
If your wife has really given you permission and wants this to really happen, she should participate in the search for this friend with benefits.
If she balks, she’s telling you she’s uncomfortable and/or resistant to your “situation.”
If that be the case, then your solution is as old as the tradition of marriage. And as problematic. Cheat and make sure she has plausible deniability to look the other way. Or holster it and get a new hobby. Either way, welcome to suffering.
14
Announcing that you are "done" with sex isn't a renegotiation... it's a unilateral declaration.
Which is fine.
But while people may be resigned to accept monogamy in modern marriage, chastity is not part of the deal.
Don't want to have sex?
Ok.
But don't expect your partner to join your little monastery, with Onan his or her only consolation.
27
Re LW1's dilemma: Perhaps a redefinition of "sexual intimacy" is called for. There are countless variations of physical and emotional congress--surely in all the years this couple has been married they can exercise a little creativity. Unless Mrs. LW1 would not also describe their life together as "happily married for decades," what would be the problem?
6
Lots of post-menopausal women no longer want sex, either because of lost libido or vaginal pain. Yes, many use hormones, but those carry health risks. Does this mean it's fine if their horny old husbands go out to rustle up some side action? Well, only if the inevitable consequence of diminished intimacy and commitment is also okay. A sexual relationship is not an exercise routine. It's an intimate encounter with another human being, who also has feelings. Both people will have feelings, possibly very strong ones, if they're not sociopaths. I think what this husband is looking for is permission to keep his house and his housemate and some of their lifelong routines, not his marriage. If I were his wife I would feel deserted.
30
I once thought it a sadness that men in their sixties often divorced their wives so as to take up with new wives in their forties or younger. I've changed my mind. Mrs. LW1 may be gently opening the door to see if her husband will take this direction. Divorce may be expensive, but a simpler life lived with beloved pets and leaving her husband's inevitable decline and demise in the hands of her successor might be just the thing.
21
Prostitution is the answer. Just the sex without any emotional attachment or relationship that could undermine your marriage.
18
There’s more to sexual relationships than sex. Say you get a new resistant strain of STD and inadvertently pass it to your wife? If “health issues” led her to stop having sex I think she’ll be reasonably unhappy to be made sicker. Also, I wonder about why she’s actually stopping sex. Maybe this has more to do with you than you realize. In any event (and assuming you have both your hands) you have perfectly good options for sex with you at all times and might think to look to yourself for gratification. Sex is entirely overrated. Additionally, she may not actually want to be with you at all and this is a kind of “push” toward someone (anyone) else. Only she knows the answer to this. Lastly, if she loves you and wants you as a platonic partner why not have her post ads on your behalf and let her determine your hookup and any future communication? If nothing else she would probably get a number of sympathy emails from other women whose husbands are so incredibly selfish they think sex is absolutely necessary to any “well-rounded” person (it’s not).
20
One avenue for the man with a sexual issue ... Backpage or equivalent GFE site. Pick an escort or several you might have an interest in. However, it does involve spending money at about $200 per hour. Also make sure you get tested periodically for STDs. Also check out your choices ahead of time to ensure you don't get picked up by the vice squad. Also don't pick someone close to home....100 miles away at least. There are options, but you must be willing to deal with the consequences of those decisions.
8
I am a French guy 64 years old in the same situation, I solved by I taking a 41 year mistress. Americans are hypocrites when it comes to sex.
17
Every couple should be able to find an arrangement that works for them - whether that's sex with one another, no sex, or - gasp - sex with others. If he says he has his wife's permission, why not believe him? There are plenty of couples who live in open relationships, even without any kind of illness as justification for a change in their sex lives. Why shouldn't they go outside the marriage for sex if they're both ok with that? The most important thing in my opinion is that they do so with honesty and open communication so that everyone involved can indeed decide for themselves if they're ok with that arrangement. And none of this is what the original letter writer was actually asking about. The problem he's facing is that it's hard to find a partner for extramarital sex, precisely because so many people - including many commenters here, clearly - think that's immoral. Why that should be immoral when the parties involved have the opportunity to decide for themselves is not clear to me. But of course those other potential partners have every right to avoid such a relationship and just because the letter writer has permission to engage in extramarital sex doesn't mean he will in fact find many opportunities to do so.
(Also, this option would seem to be much easier for women than for men, since men tend to be more open to the idea of sex outside of committed relationships than women are. Perhaps an unfair stereotype, but it has been my experience with open relationships.)
11
the ethicist begins with the statement "Marital vows should not, in ordinary circumstances, be subject to renegotiation" but does not explain or provide any ethical basis why this should be so. for some of us, this kind of thinking is just traditional myth intended to encourage Fidelity, rather than universal law have down from...?
14
Ethicist didn't address the matter of seeking sex outside of marriage in this situation. I'd be interested in what he'd say.
But, he was right about the social media aspect of this. The guy got a hugely negative response. He didn't provide the details, but it sounds like a huge online faux pas.
I'm guessing he sought out someone much younger on a site that's not NSA-friendly.
I'm not endorsing any of this, but this guy should find a site that suits his purpose. There are a lot to choose from.
2
I’m surprised about the amount of sex-shame tossed about here in the comments, and even more surprised that the response given by the columnist didn’t include the phrase “ethical non-monogamy”. There is an ethical framework for this type of thing that works for many people. A cursory mention of open relationships with the implication (as I interpret it) that “well that’s weird, uncharted territory so who knows” is some major ball-dropping for an ethicist.
1) Monogamy works for some people.
2) Ethical non-monogamy works for some people.
3) Non-ethical non-monogamy (cheating) is no good from an ethical standpoint. Lots of folks are confusing this and their feelings about it with #2.
To the dude who wrote in and other people curious about a ethical non-monogamy: google the term, read some of the good books that exist about it, and take Internet randos’ advice with a grain of salt.
9
Mr. Appiah, you ought to have checked with a sex therapist, couples therapist, or some other person familiar with your happily married man's situation before trying to address it. Consider "the sin of Onan" is dumb advice on a several levels. Masturbation is not a sin, nor is it a substitute for mutual sexual intimacy. Really quite a terrible job with that question.
24
Ok...i will try to give you a loving perspective. Sex is a form of communication. There is also porn. That is lust. I am not talking about that. I would wonder why your wife does not want to be intimate with you anymore. Are you still having intimate verbal conversations? How close are you still. When you had sex with her, was she enjoying it like you were...i am in doubt there because women are turned on and like to have sex just as much as men. But they are a victim of a global culture in which their desires are neglected. If you had really good physical, intimate...may I say tantric sex...i doubt she would want to stop having sex with you
18
Interesting that Mel Tillis died this weekend as he wrote the song “Ruby don’t take your love to town.”
It was about a paralyzed disabled Vietnam Vet who watched his wife get dressed up each night and leave the house to go party.
The last line was “If I could get my gun I’d put her in the ground. Oh Ruby, for god’s sake turn around.”
Remember those wedding vows of “in sickness and in health til death do you part?” Well Your wife is ill.. Quit thinking of only yourself...she needs your undivided love now!
11
Re: L1 "maritial vows should not, in ordinary circumstances be subject to renegotiation." Actually what makes marriage binding is the signed and witnessed marital contract, not the public profession of love (which is sweet but hardly binding). Further, surely it is the wife (who very reasonably considering her medical condition) initiated a "renegotiation" of expectations. Those incensed with a breaking of vows should consider (literally) what's good for the goose is also good for the gander. If a wife changes the rules, so too may a husband. Hopefully they will be more amiable and less antagonistic toward each other than some of the comments herein.
5
Long ago I was friends with a few independent sex workers. They would often speak of mutual clients they knew . I learned from them that a portion of their customers were men whose wives were seriously ill. They felt quite kindly & sympathetic toward these men. The men they said, were often sad and needing of physical touch and more often, comfort. It is one option.
8
A friend of mine, wanted to have sex with other women, even though he was still married. He explained it very clearly - same situation, wife no longer interested in sex and having given him permission to get it elsewhere. He was really upset when women were not interested in such a relationship. I was astounded that he didn't see how selfish his position was! It might be fine with he and his wife but how does this serve the woman he is having sex with? Geez. He gets the cake and eats it too. The other woman, crumbs.
14
This is the first time I've seen The Ethicist listed in the "Trending" articles! How very telling about the subject matter's pertinence in American society.
HEY ETHICIST I THINK YOU NEED SOME POLYAMORY 101. Nonmonogamy works for many, but it is rarely easy for many different reasons (monogamous relationships are rarely easy too). Love happens and it may enrich this couple. Listen to Dan Savage's podcast. Read Esther Perel's new book, "The State of Affairs: Rethinking Infidelity."
7
Regarding violating a person's privacy (revealing a medical condition never disclosed)....If the dead cannot be defamed or slandered I fail to see how they can be embarrassed or have their privacy betrayed. Indeed the deceased as a matter of course have their material goods rummaged through, parcelled out or thrown away. Knowing their cause of death is hardly more intrusive.
As the writer acknowledges, information is educative. More importantly, such knowledge could make an enormous difference to family members who share her genes and perhaps a pre-dispostion to the disease that some think urgently needs to be kept under wraps.
2
"This may be an argument for the sin of Onan, where there’s only yourself to fall in love with."
I love this sentence. A perfect solution!
LW 1 fails to mention the age of the women he seeks contact with. When I tried internet dating, in my mid-to-late 30's, I was amazed at how many men 20+ years my senior would indicate interest, despite them being decades older than my stated age range. I never responded, as it seemed safer to not reply at all, rather than to outright reject men who felt so entitled to ignore my preferences. FWIW, the "my wife and I have an arrangement" disclaimer was also not unusual on men's profiles (albeit not limited to men of the LW's age).
7
Have another wife while keeping your commitment & care to the first wife!
Another wife = long term commitment and care for both =/= Adultery
The bible is full of stories of righteous people who had more than one wife. Monogamy has been imposed for political reasons by the roman empire and adopted later by the Church for similar reasons. I am Muslim and proud of Islam as it offers a responsible, committed solution for similar problems.
If the 1st wife is not happy then she has the right to ask for divorce
3
the problem is that the writer went on the web to find someone, which only exposes him to inauthentic responses from strangers which tend to be judgmental and negative. The truth is that marriage is about love and committment and no one has the right to judge his marriage and his decision to procure his wife's permission to go outside the marriage for sex. It works for some people, and it does not work for many people. Many marriages are sexless yet stable because the people choose to stay together for other reasons, and in those marriages, sometimes the spouses find sexual intimacy elsewhere. If they find it with someone who's ok with the situation, then that's called consensual sex and it's ok for adults. If the writer and his wife can pull the plan off, that's their business. Although it's super difficult, he may do better trying to find someone through just plain old fashioned meeting, by pursuing his interest, rather than throw his fate to the web. I wish him and his wife good luck because it sems that they are trying to navigate love in a difficult circumstance, and calling him names or judging him is immature and superficial.
39
Good advice. I think it's the internet that is at fault here, not the man nor his wife. And I found the Ethicist's response to be a little bit of finger wagging. Long term commitment in marriage gets more complicated with time, not less so, especially if one person has a higher sex drive than the other or illness is involved as it seems to be here. I wish this couple the best of luck. I agree that the old fashion way of just meeting someone within a social network, i.e. not on the internet, is the best way to proceed. Privacy counts. This man does not sound like a "dirty old man" at all. It sounds to me like he enjoys the intimacy of sex and had, until now, been a loyal and good husband. Now the situation has changed and nobody is at fault. Boy are we a Puritan culture.
9
When my husband told me at age 40 that he couldn't have sex any more due to his degenerative disease, it never occurred to me to abandon him or look elsewhere. 'In sickness and health' meant something to me. It turned out he was lying - he was actually cheating with his caregiver and they ran off, exploding our family and scarring our children for life. I think that people should come with warning labels so we know what commitment really means to them before we waste decades of our lives on them.
71
Many people do come with "warning labels" in the form of the history of their parent's relationship(s). For example, someone whose parents divorced and there were multiple remarriages and divorces could give you a good idea of their attitudes towards your future marriage with them and their willingness to do some hard work to try to work things out if things got rocky. Marrying someone whose parent(s) have/had addiction problems may be a crystal ball into your future together. Take the "feeling pause" and try to get in touch with your true feelings about a potential mate, as well as evaluate some of the warning signs and information available right under your nose.
1
You can never have sex with another woman after you get married. That is the deal. PERIOD. Even if you are Muslim like me, you can't do it...it is a S-I-N. The Quran is very clear about taking multiple wive's...war, famine, plague, etc...the conditions are strenuous and cannot be met in modern times, not even by heretical royals. Adultery is a CRIME. My guess is our friend here missed out on The Great Sex Flood, circa '67 to '82. Too bad. It was a lot of fun.
14
great reminder why religion should not have legal powers to control us. your version of sin is not relevant because , thankfully, we still have separation of church and state here.
6
It may be a sin for YOU, but luckily we are not a theocracy. The religion people my choose to is not law of the land. Please keep religion out of it, and live and let live.
5
Actually, people can have sex outside of marriage, they do, and it isn’t a crime here in the States. The “sin”nonsense is dependent completely on the “sinner’s”religious beliefs.
5
Marriage is about nothing but renegotiation! You have to talk about what you mean by your vows when you get married and have to be ready to change as you change. I'm surprised at Appiah because I expect him to remember what he has said about thick and thin language. If you vow to honor someone, you have to talk about what that means because it's a thin word that clearly means different things to different people. And that can change! The person I was when I married at 25 and the person I was at 45 were very different, but we adjusted. We grew together. We talked about what we were feeling and why were were feeling it. Isn't this what all couples do after decades together?
28
I just wish we could keep religion out of marriage. Sigh. What a patriarchal load of mumbo jumbo, that has caused more harm in this world than any disease.
4
No.No —-she isn’t done with sex—-she not attracted to you and done with you and just finding other interests maybe not sexual—- you’ll be gone at some point and she’ll get on with
Her life——she’s fulfilled her contract
16
Right on!
Find a friend with benefits. Be up front. Tell your wife.
12
How strange to discover that a man who approached me on a dating site may have also approached The Ethicist regarding the rejection he experienced on that site. He told me that it "wasn't what you're thinking" and his wife "no longer wanted intimacy." Given my age and experience, I know that there are many reasons for sexless couple-dom. I agreed to meet with him at a local restaurant to hear him out. And when the day came, the weather was glorious and I suggested that we meet outside, on the patio. He said he couldn't--his wife would be driving by at the very time of our appointed meeting and he didn't want any "drama." I politely pulled the plug on the date. He hurled opprobrium at me in several subsequent texts. But my reason for cancelling the date goes to the heart of his letter here: he clearly didn't have the consent he thought he had and he wanted me to sneak around in the shadows. I have a good deal of self-respect. This man was selling an arrangement that even he knew wasn't possible under whatever the real conditions of his marriage were. Oh, and btw. I don't ordinarily date married men. I don't date separated men. But I was in a dry spell and let my curiosity overcome my better judgment for about half a minute. Instead of writing to The Ethicist, this man needs to get straight with himself. At the moment, he's willing to damage a couple of women just so he can get off. That's the definition of a low-life if there ever was one.
69
You have no idea if the writer is the same person that the ethicist is responding to.
43
How do you know it was the same man? It says "name withheld." Do you really think there's only one person in the whole country who is in this situation? Strange.
But her experience is a common one and she may have been being sarcastic.
4
Marital vows may not be up for renegotiation, but what are these vows regarding sex? A pledge of monogamy or a covenant to be sexual. My wife and I are always amazed when we learn about friends who have sexless marriages. We are in our 70s and we've learned that sex that accepts differences between us in sexual appetites and moods, is giving and not demanding, is always honest and real, and adapts to changes in health and life circumstances, can remain vital and fulfilling. We see sex as a covenant that reaffirms the specialness of our relationship, not a restriction and a source of deprivation.
29
What kind of friends do you have who share their sex lives?
4
Re LW1: Having relationships with other women could easily lead to one that will break up his marriage. Suffering in silence instead can also lead to the same end. This marriage is in trouble unless he and his wife seek counseling and achieve some sort of mutually satisfying resolution that does not involve third parties.
23
Or, he could just summon the self control that he should have possessed since maturing into an adult at about 18.
4
Vows not subject to renegotiation? Say What?
21
Re: Letter 1. This is covered by the "...for better or worse, in sickness and in health" clause of the contract.
14
It seems obvious to me that many of the women online might not want to have sex with a man who would cheat on a woman who is ill, regardless of his statements that it's ok with her. I wouldn't. This is called making an ethical decision. If LW 1 doesn't like that reaction, tough. We can't always get what we want. Stop whining.
LW 2...you don't out someone or reveal a personal detail about someone's life without asking if that is acceptable to them. It's not ethical. The LW has every right to point this out to the individual. Whether or not they "value" each other is not the point. You don't do it. As for apologies, the only acceptable apology is a firm commitment to never indulge in such behavior ever again.
15
The box you have placed yourself in by the 'ethical' choices you have chosen is not a box others will choose. Their 'ethics' require the proper dose of all things required to maintain a healthy body and spirit.
7
LW#1 - Your wife has an absolute right to end her sex life but she has no right to end yours. You can use a good escort service, or if you want a full relationship with another woman, you can divorce your wife and start over as a single man. No matter what you do, it is going to cost you unfortunately. Good luck.
LW#2 - I don't know how closing your social media account helps anything. I am not really sure what you are talking about anyway. Tell the person to take down the offending material because he/she did not have your permission to post it.
LW#3 - It is the deceased's sister who is sharing the information, there is nothing you can do. In my experience, it is the so-called friends who circle like vultures for the contents of the deceased's home and want to spread "truth" after a death leaving relatives to set aside grief to call these people out and be clear on what they will not be allowed to do. Gee, I still sound bitter.
8
Ethics aside, I think part of what LW is encountering is a bias against 'older' people and their sexual lives. Young people seem horrified that anyone older than 45 (or, pick another number) has sexual urges and enjoys sex, regardless of body type and appearance.
19
Ethics aside?? Seriously?? It's an ethics column, not an "opinion column" or an "advice" column. But ethics don't seem to be discussed here. As for comments being "black or white", when discussing ethics, the questions need to ask for discussion about the general good, not the neurotic anxieties of the letter writer who wants approval. The third letter is the only one who appears to want to explore an ethical approach.
6
Ethics aside is fine when you are in the comments section, ethically speaking.
6
The fact that the letter writer laments women calling him a "dirty old man" is telling, because it suggests that he's not just contacting women on dating sites--he's contacting much younger women. This is a widespread problem on dating sites. I have no problem with a man my father's age having a sex life. But I do have a problem when a man my father's age contacts me looking for sex--despite a clear specification on my profile that I'm not interested in men more than 5-10 years older than me. I suspect LW1 would have more success and find less abuse if he looked for a partner close to his own age, as such a person might be more sympathetic to the issues he and his wife are experiencing. Instead, it sounds a little bit like he's trying to have his cake and eat it too.
9
Human society is based on taking responsibilities for your actions, related to your Family & societies in which You live. You have to face consequences for your actions like it or not.
7
Do you require her 'permission' to fulfill your other bodily needs such as eating or sleeping?
10
Sometimes a "bodily need" doesn't get met. Too bad.
21
But eating and sleeping don't directly impact the physical or emotional states of another person. You speak as if the other sexual partner would be an inanimate, empty vessel. His plan is to engage with another human being. The encounter can potentially affect him, his wife, and the other person. Not saying how, simply that it can.
15
"Sometimes a "bodily need" doesn't get met. Too bad."
Sure, but in today's culture among those younger than 60 that is a rare occurrence. The older folks for whom this is a problem are products of a sexually repressive culture.
6
Both people in Letter 1 need to honor themselves and their needs. A wife or partner who no longer wishes to engage in intercourse must have her wishes honored. That is the marriage committment. If the husband seeks physical sex elsewhere, and is honest about it with his wife, he just needs to use whatever routes of communication are available to seek it. That might be difficult, but life is difficult. End of story.
18
Re: letter writer #1, he glosses over the question of his wife's "permission" to do this. He writes _as if_ she gave permission, but somehow, doesn't dwell on that little piece. Which is perhaps because he knows it isn't really a little piece - it's huge. It's telling that we don't get any details about whatever feelings she may have expressed about this. A tough situation, but I feel like he knows deep down it really isn't going to work to go have sex with someone else, after several decades of supposedly being happily married, and in the face of serious illness, now seems like a good time to basically forsake her? Dude, you do realize it could have happened the other way around? Have you asked yourself if it would be fine with you if SHE were stepping out while you were seriously ill? That's that piece about for better or for worse in the marriage vows. I don't know these individuals personally, of course, and people often end up surprising us, so anything could happen, and maybe his wife truly is fine with this and all will be well. But if I were laying bets, I'd say, this is the end of that marriage. Has it even occurred to the guy to explore exactly why she is "done" with sex? It could be from a lack of desire or it could have lots of other facets, such as depression, or self-consciousness due to physical changes, or even subtle signs she has picked up from him that she is no longer desirable. It is telling that he shows no awareness of such questions.
37
LW 1 didn't gloss over his wife's permission. The ethical issue for him was not related to permission from his partner--he already had that. He was asking advice about navigating vitriol and ageism. Maybe it's not surprising the ethicist replied to LW's query as if LW had been asking about the ethics of this brand of extramarital sex since LW's actual questions weren't really about ethics. Rather, they were about how to combat "biblical rigidity" the money spent lionizing youth.
9
One of my extended family members could have written that first letter. His wife had ovarian cancer and was too ill to have sex. He started having an affair because his physical "needs" were no longer being met. The affair became serious, and he delivered divorce papers to his hospitalized wife three days before she died.
To all the commenters writing about how she had "defaulted" on her marriage vows, and how she could just give him a hand or blow job - for the moment, imagine that maybe the wife is seriously ill. Would you say this about a woman who was fighting stage IV cancer, or Alzheimers, or Parkinsons?
97
I've worked in a cancer ward. The percentage of husbands who leave their wives when she is diagnosed with cancer (or MS or other debilitating and/or terminal illnesses) is quite high. Lots of recently divorced women on the ward. The male patients don't have the same fate; wives tend to stick by their sick husbands. So, yes, many men would say that the wife defaulted on her marriage vows, regardless of the reason.
4
"Would you say this about a woman who was fighting stage IV cancer, or Alzheimers, or Parkinsons?"
Of course I wouldn't say that because a lack of interest in sex is not the same thing as having a terminal illness. Equating a low sex drive to Stage IV cancer is absolutely preposterous.
2
Having an affair, which implies he did nothing to tell your family member, is different from talking it out and agreeing that the healthy partner may seek sex elsewhere. There are happy marriages where one spouse has fallen seriously, chronically ill or knows they will die soon, and they want their spouse to have their needs met while they are sick or after they pass. And yes, I have encountered chronically ill patients with the conditions you name who want the best for their spouses, even if it meant the relations were not necessarily with them.
1
The realities of human relations are far more grey than many want to admit or accept, so they resort to black and white judgments that simultaneously ignore the circumstances and declare a no-options policy. It reminds me of the total honesty policy so many declare, pretending there aren't a variety of situations and circumstances in which total honesty or even honesty may be worse than dishonesty of one variety or another. There's a long list of these to choose from in the course of living life.
I'm in the moral relativist camp. I consider all of the factors before concluding what the overall best course of action or inaction probably is. Reasonable people can differ regarding this, but black and white answers to grey questions is failure to do one's homework before pontificating about what is right and wrong. Those with true wisdom are the least likely to make snap judgments and absolutist assertions.
The gentleman who would like to continue to include physical pleasure in his life in spite of his wife's declaration has probably been too honest with his wife. What she doesn't know and never knows might be kinder than total honesty from him. The advice to meet women outside of dating sites is rational and more likely to result in an appropriate reality for his circumstance. It's his life, not yours.
Eclectic Pragmatism — http://eclectic-pragmatist.tumblr.com/
Eclectic Pragmatist — https://medium.com/eclectic-pragmatism
16
I find the illustration accompanying the article interesting. Clearly, the wife's lack of interest in sex equates her with a stereotype of an old woman, sitting next her sexually "healthy" son. She looks twice his age.
A trick of evolution is that, statistically, men crave sex to a much more advanced age than do women. Pertinent to the current dialogue on sexual harassment, when woman lose interest in sex, it is termed a "dysfunction" rather than a normal, perfectly healthy response to aging. And perfectly natural--sex is often extremely painful for women after menopause. This certainly is a problem, but one that would be better saved were we to acknowledge it and focus on other forms of intimacy. Turning to other partners never ends well. Is sex really the only thing holding their marriage together?
49
I'm surprised there is such a storm over the first letter. In this day and age there are plenty of people who want sex buddies, usually called something unprintable in this paper. I agree the wife is most likely not a fan of this arrangement but can't do anything about. it. This is definitely a problem of the aging population when one spouse can't or won't engage in sexual relations when the other partner wants to. Then there was the case of the man who was prosecuted for having sex with his wife who was non-compos mentis and couldn't give consent. His argument was that they had a long and loving relationship and would have given consent if she could speak. After a jury trial; not guilty
This man needs to find out if his wife can stand having her husband having consensual sex with another woman in a relationship that is purely sexual without attachments. Maybe he can find a woman who is in the same position as he is. I am sure there are many.
10
One does have to wonder at the responses calling him a "dirty old man." Sounds like he's fishing way below his age range. Considering how many women are single over 40, it shouldn't be that difficult.
3
I read the comments section on many articles in the NYT, and for the life of me, I don't think I have ever read a set of comments that consist of the level of projection I see here. So many comments here alter the factual premise of the question; I assume this is an act of projection, a reaction that is much, much more about the person commenting than the person writing the letter.
28
Re Question One. The Ethicist's response completely misses what may be the best option: the oldest profession, ladies of the evening, call it what you will.
13
this is an ugly, nasty comment. please tell us more about how much you hate women.
2
There is much empirical evidence to suggest that humans aren’t cut out for celibacy, or even monogamy, for that matter. If sex is really that important to you, and your wife supports this plan, then do what you must.
I find people who are singularly focused on sexual release to be shallow and uninteresting. More important than my opinion, however, is that they themselves report general dissatisfaction with most aspects of their lives (not just sex). I’m not sure that finding a new lover is going to solve your problem.
32
Regarding the first letter, I suspect some of these overly ungenerous responses would be quite different were the writer a woman whose husband was no longer interested in sex for medical reasons. I have a friend who fell off a roof and broke his neck. He has been in a wheelchair with only slight control of the fingers of one hand ever since. They were both young when it happened, and his condition has been a genuine trial for her as well as for him. Over the years, her bitterness and resentment have become more pronounced, and I am quite certain that becoming the primary earner and caregiver are only part of that. Had they allowed themselves the honesty and freedom to remain committed but permissive, I believe their overall relationship would be far healthier and stronger than it now is.
We can't know the mind of the letter-writer or his wife, so let's leave the rigid moralizing for those with puritan views on any of life's pleasures.
32
First World problems. Really !
20
I personally know many couples that have come up with
arrangements that solve problems of this nature by involving
other people. Its called thinking outside the box. It's called life.
Why someone would think they need the world to approve?
I don't live that way.
16
Re: no sex guy. I'm 71 and I would not even desire sex with a sixty year old. But, really! In your "golden years", you don't have anything other than sex to occupy your time?
18
Dude, pay for it since what you seem to really want is just the physical release. Stop trying to find a consenting partner who's going to want to get naked with you with no hope of an actual relationship.
59
I'm married for almost 50 years. My spouse has always thought of every marital vow as mere suggestions. He managed to violate every one of them, sometimes more than once. I am not in a financial position to divorce. I am also in such poor health that I have no interest is sex with anyone. So if my husband at his ripe old age of mid-seventy is now suffering from lack of sex or intimacy, I say too bad. You reap what you sow.
22
I hadn't understood that this article was about your life, but thanks for sharing your griping with us.
25
THE ETHICIST"s answer to the first question by the man in his mid-60s is very sophisticated, insightful and well thought out. It is a complex situation and it deserves the thoughtful and intelligent consideration Mr. Appiah offered.
6
If you notice, the guy is not asking permission to do it. He's complaining that people find it creepy and wants the world to make them stop.
Good luck with that.
56
I am (thank God) off the market for many years. However, I have several girlfriends who have profiles on online dating sites, which informs my response to the first letter. It’s not difficult to guess what went wrong here. The gentleman in question started “winking” or pinging at profiles of single women, none of whom had expressed a desire to get busy with a married man. In addition, men in these environments seem to ignore all profile preferences of the women regarding age, interests or education. It looks like a candy store—but guess what: both parties are shopping.
41
I can't help but wonder how many conservatives who would insist this man keep his wedding vows voted for the twice-divorced occupant of the White House or are fans of serial divorcers like Rush Limbaugh and Newt Gingrich.
33
I wish I could 'retweet' or amplify your observation in some way.
I just can't get my head around the ongoing support for people like Newt Gingrich and Rush Limbaugh, in general, let alone the considerable support from self-described evangelical Christians. Sure, their behavior doesn't sink to the apparently low level of, say, Roy Moore or Donald Trump, but it confuses me that conservative Christians would enthusiastically embrace these men.
In a slightly different vein, can you imagine similar support for a conservative Republican female politician or pundit with Gingrich's record of divorce or Trump's purported history of sexual encounters?
2
I see nowhere that the wife agreed to his having another sexual partner. Did she agree?
If she did agree, and if most women respond as indicated from the cited examples, perhaps a prostitute is the answer.
8
He refers obliquely to her giving permission, but tellingly doesn't dwell on that point, give details, or demonstrate any awareness of or interest in her feelings. He doesn't really even have an ethical question. He's just trying to figure out how he can find a sex partner who won't care about such details.
19
The censors, sensible and “correct” as can be, will probably not publish this comment because it is off-subject. By 2 weeks. But...
In these 2 weeks that have elapsed since The Ethicist opined about the injured fraternity pledge, students at Penn St, LSU, Florida St and Texas St have died as a result of hazing.
Revisit his opinion in light of these events? Nah! Better to give us clickbait like letter 1.
8
That's what escorts are for
16
If his wife is OK with this, I don't see an ethical issue here, but I do think he needs a different web site. Christian Singles was not the place to start.
As far as the suggestion that he get an inflatable doll is concerned, I think all of us men out there can agree that a girl that smells and feels like a beach ball is just not that enticing for purposes of rutting (but a great pool toy). We are beasts, but we are picky beasts. I have no doubt that in his selfishness he was hoping for better. Moreover, if you think his wife would be hurt if he had affair with another woman, think of how she would feel if he had an affair with a beach ball! That would really hurt. But at least she could end the affair with a straight pin.
17
"Christian Singles was not the place to start." - LOL
17
Why can't the mid-60s man advertise/look for a companion in a more discreet fashion? I agree it is hard to find someone online. However it is hard for everyone.
Try saying you are interested in something "casual" and/or "not long term." Also, you could check out professional websites that cater to sex only/no strings attached situations. Don't get stuck because you perceive yourself as "old" either.
Carpe diem!
7
The advice and comments by The Ethicist to LW1 are outdated and sexist, and not for the first time. Come on New York Times, are you ever going to address this?
12
How on earth is the response sexist. While the Ethicist didn't castigate the writer for his desire to wander, he certainly didn't suggest anything offensive to the sickly wife. Second, the writer is on in years so those "outdated" rules would still apply to him.
2
There is the real possibility that it is not sex his wife does not want but him. How flexible is he in his "needs"? Or better you how imaginative has he been with his technique over the years. How much does he understand his wife's needs? (Or is he simply descending into dementia - which can change someone's personality to the point where they are no loner attractive to their wife (or husband)).
11
If the wife just doesn't want sex with him because he isn't a good lover (for her), then it would be a great solution for both to open up the relationship. Each could (try to) find a lover they enjoyed.
I think it's wonderful that all these commenters have the RIGHT answer.
If only they had the SAME answer !
12
The first letter writer has several issues to sort out.
We don't know his wife's true perspective, interest or abilities, but sexual contact doesn't involve just sexual intercourse. There may be other ways to bring physical and emotional intimacy back to this marriage and counseling could be helpful.
He sounds, with his description of being at the end of the bell shaped curve, a bit driven by his physical needs, rather than weighting the needs of wife, marriage or other partners sought just for sex.
Another options is ex workers, not as a judgment, but as a practical solution.
But he needs to be thinking this through before risky behavior. And condoms, guy.
10
I had exactly the same situation as Name Withheld. Like the rest of the world I turned to Match.com. No problem. I put up a truthful profile and made it a rule that I would never make the first move. I was very pleasantly surprised.
I went through a succession of one-month wonders, though. The first six women I met concluded that I was serious, after all, and was not going to abandon the nest. They decided to cut and run and look for something more substantial. Number seven had a reciprocal issue with her mate. She found me on Ashley Madison. It all worked out and that was eight years ago. I guess it just takes luck and patience.
14
I'm a man in my 60's in an open marriage; my wife has had an alternate partner for 26 years. Occasionally I have sought out other women only to be subjected to the same condemnation and negative judgement. Marriage vows CAN be renegotiated if the marriage is lived as a living relationship...not a solemn social contract with harsh consequences for those who waver.
13
Question #2: If the sole purpose of sharing the e-mails was to truiy raise awareness about the sister’s condition with friends and acquaintances who are unaware, I don’t necessarily see a problem, especially if it is rare.
It comes down to thr intent of the person sharing the information, and how respectfully she does it. Sounds like both of my conditions were met here.
3
I can address only situation #1. Although my relationship is male/male, I find it similar with roles reversed, We have been coupled for 32 years and legally married for just over 10, for a total of 42. Very much in love, I am physically no longer able to provide for my husband's needs as I. we are close and have always communicated about these issues easily. I am unable and as a result, have lost most desire for active participation. After extensive discussion, I granted him 'permission,' to access whatever he needed, yet he won't use it. I think I have hurt him deeply, but he denies it. This Life Change won't hurt us for long, but we're having a difficult time at the moment. We're not splitting, but I feel helpless to provide for my husband and I've run out of ideas. We are still In Love as much or even more than the day we agreed to be partners, about 42 years ago. Do you have any ideas? Thanks!
10
Your partner may perhaps feel more guilty than hurt knowing that you are unable to provide physical love but are generous enough to let him find satisfaction with others. Give him time and carry on giving him love and affection in other ways. Hopefully when and if he finally feels the need for physical affection he will quietly find it with others. I hope both of you will still be able to keep the love and friendship that have developed over four decades of your lives together.
10
Counseling.
7
LW 1 should find an escort. A paid professional completely removes the prospect of developing feelings on the part of one or both parties. Letters like this make me really wish we had legalized prostitution in this country.
24
Sure, then perhaps he can add the legal issues and cost of arrest as well as participate in the exploitation of women,perhaps even human trafficking. Well done.
1
I'm surprised more isn't being made of the first letter writer's responses calling him a "dirty old man". To me this suggests that he is not seeking his dates among women of his age, but those far younger (30s? 40s?). It's not surprising that he's not finding much success. Maybe if he expanded his search parameters he'd meet more like-minded women.
23
Not sure which is more insulting: Tomi Um’s illustration or Prof Appiah’s answer to L1
13
Yes, that illustration is killing me!
5
An intimate relationship needs to be nurtured. There are more ways for physical sexual satisfaction to occur beyond the standard missionary position. If his wife is saying "no" -- there's a good chance her hormones are diminished and she needs help. Getting tested and supported right there might make a huge difference. At the very least it would help her feel better and the two can up there level of physical enjoyment and exploration.
4
Or maybe just maybe his aged self can no longer engage in sex and he is asking her to do things with which she is not comfortable just to enable him to derive physical pleasure for him.
4
The first letter doesn't demonstrate much insight into his wife's perspective and needs or those of the sex friend he is hoping to find. Could that be what is holding him back from a satisfying sex life -- a lack of insight or compassion for his partner(s)? I realize letters need to be short and that his question centers on how to find a sex friend, not how to find satisfying common ground with his wife. Still, I'm lingering over the fact that he makes no mention of whether his wife even consented to this arrangement much less to steps taken to understand reasons for her disinterest. Ironically, his last sentence may be his best solution -- less youthfulness and eroticism and more thought.
50
Your note is at least as unsympathetic to the letter writer as you presumptuously allege the writer is to others. He wrote a candid confession of a painful problem, and like a good, thoughtful writer (a suggestion that he's also a reasonably considerate husband and would-be lover), he explained all points of view, albeit emphasizing his own. Your "perhaps-ing" imposes prejudice more than perspective, and denies the insider information in the letter in favor of imagined facts. Is there any reason, let alone in the letter, to suppose that the wife gave up on sex because the husband was inconsiderate? Is that how sex works for you?
5
What horrible advice. The man lays out the facts and TE conveniently ignores everything he wrote.
He does not want to masturbate. He wants sex, plain and simple. He and his wife, just like thousands (millions?) of other couples, have come to an agreement. Religious advice is worthless unless it's taken from the pages of the Kama Sutra...
61
Jeez people; there are things like uterine cancer which might leave painful radiation damage and literally make sex not possible for his wife. It doesn't mean they don't love each other; it doesn't mean they should get divorced; it doesn't mean etiher of them are bad human beings. My mother had a debilitating disease which left her unable to have sex due to things like catheters being in place; my father loved her until the day she died and cared for her daily. But he eventually started a relationship with a widow to meet his other needs, and as his child, I couldn't have been happier that he was taking care of himself as well. It's not fair to sentence both people to the side effects of an illness; show a little understanding and compassion. Yes, there are risks and yes the various alternatives ought to be carefully weighed and yes make sure the wife is giving free consent, but it's not impossible and probably more common than it seems people want to believe. People are sexual beings well into their 80s and beyond, but they are not always equally matched in that department. Would you suggest he divorce her if she had Alzheimers or advanced cancer as the reason for not wanting to have sex?
229
Nothing makes americans more righteous than discussing open relations however voluntarily. The advice of this philosopher is just a sad illustration of that fact.
2
Polyamoru buddy. My wife is a nympho and I am into sex once or twice a week. She wants sex like everyday!
I'm not the jealous type, so we are polyamorous. We have physical and emotional relationships outside of our marriage as a couple. We have been dating another couple for years. It's great. I get lots of awesome lovers and there Is no pressure on me to have sex when I don't want to.
The key is communication. You gotta have no lies. None. Otherwise it will blow up in your face
31
Your predecessor, had a different opinion on this matter, in http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/magazine/06wwln-ethicist-t.html
12
Wow what completely useless advice and what cruel comments from people. There's a nasty ageist dimension to it, as if some people don't think people over 60 (let alone 80) need sex. Well they do, just as much as 20-somethings.
Let's stop blaming people. This sort of thing is VERY common among aging couples. As people age, one partner will have health issues and not be able to participate. Saying that's the end of sex for the partner -- that's the same twisted logic as religions that bind the wife to the husband's funeral pyre.
They should be given support to work it out. There are dozens of options here. There may be ways that he can enjoy sex in the company of his wife without her physically participating -- if that's what they both want. There is technology. Or hire someone to help out -- again, if that's what works for the couple. Hiring an escort, if they can afford it, might actually be safer and less complicated than dating sites.
Why suggest divorce? He's not asking for divorce -- presumably he and his wife still share a great deal, he wants to spend the rest of his life with her. That's marriage.
Long marriages are one of the greatest things in life. And so is sex. People should be entitled to both if possible.
138
Forget the internet and seek ladies who might be in the same situation as you. It is not that uncommon for this type of situation to occur. I get it. My wife was quite sick for a period of time and I was considering the same thing. It was not a matter of our relationship but she was in a lot of pain and doped up on meds. You might want to check out caregiver support groups and use your personal network of friends. I would bet you will find people who understand and are sympathetic to your situation. If they don't get it, forget them and move on. Don't let their admonishments get in the way.
15
It's unkind and unhelpful to be so reductive. There's no indication that getting his rocks off is all Blue Texan was able to think of. People are able to manage multiple needs and responsibilities at a time.
3
Who says that was all he thought about? Who died and made you God? He stayed married to his spouse and was a caretaker as well as a husband. His sexual desire (not the same thing as your hateful phrase "service you to orgasm") is not a sin. Shame on your attempt at shaming.
5
That's not what he said. You have no idea what went on in their marriage, but you assume the worst. Perhaps you lived through a terrible marriage yourself. If so, I feel sorry for you. But don't assume all marriages, and all men, are like that.
3
Get divorced and stay loving friends. That's the relationship now isn't it?
9
Interesting thought.
The writer claims he's been "happily married" for decades. I'd venture a guess his wife might feel otherwise, as a potential reason for his wife finally rejecting sexual intimacy. Some men area totally tone deaf to their wives' unhappiness. Just a thought.
55
OK, then a divorce solves both their problems.
7
There are a lot words for what people are when they do not meet our needs - tone deaf; many ways to blame and shame them, the list is endless. Instead, why not see what the intent and behavior of each partner in the relationship is all about: how do both partners in the marriage feel and what do they each need. Is there a way for everyone to get their needs met?? Maybe it would require separation and divorce. It could also work in a myriad of other ways, and as others here have observed, is probably much more common than not. Conventional approaches to norms that nobody ever had any say so about have had a dismal track record. Bitter divorces, terrible lasting marriages, dysfunction that benefits nobody, damages everyone. Those now in their late seventies and eighties, can testify to the misery they endured trying to fit human nature into a straight jacket by having little or no options, not even separation or divorce. Intimacy issues and other sometimes intractable differences happen over time and there is no one size fits all solution. The couple in this article may struggle with the decisions in the moment because for a lifetime they have been taught to believe that decisions were not an option. Some people say that life is a self fulfilling prophecy. Others believe that everyone can get their needs met when the focus is on being empathetic to ourselves and others in our relationships.
8
I guess some people are tone deaf to other people's problems.
6
The "sin of Onan" is NOT what the Ethicist thinks it is. It is commonly misinterpreted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onan provides clarity.
13
"Marital vows should not, in ordinary circumstances, be subject to renegotiation."
Why not!? Me and my wife are constantly re-orientating ourselves with regards to the other, and talking and conversing about it. Have been doing so for years. We cannot expect ourselves to be same person for the rest of our lives!?
Besides, I can remember pretty well who I was when I asked my wife to marry me, and to be frank, whatever that 'kid' said and done at the time, needs to be re-evaluated at every opportunity....
To the OP: find more liberal dating-sites, give your wife the love she deserves and live the life you want, not the one that others want you too.
40
Maybe his wife has changed the agreement? Not nearly enough details for any of us to judge.
6
Casting stones, are we?
2
The man seeking advice about meeting women to sleep with would've been better off asking Dan Savage. Savage could give him some practical advice, rather than mumbo-jumbo about how brain-addling sex can be.
38
Of course you’re right. But The Ethicist likes clicks. It’s that simple.
2
Online criticism is very common, so either stick with sites that cater to open marriage, or ignore it.
13
Dear vow trashed: give it up. That is a vile way to treat your wife. There I no way to make sure she could even freely consent to what you are saying anyway.
Dear super private: those who are involved will know that they are reading about it in the NYT’s. Is that the biggest problem you have? Email the offender and get over yourself.
13
If those involved read the New York Times...
1
As a single woman, I think that I am fairly representative. I resent mightily any man who things that I am some kind of disposal. Men who have spent their lives jumping on and jumping off, and who still have no knowledge, interest, or patience for female sexuality, and who, truth be told, are bored to tears by women and anything they have to say. In addition, they have no means or intention of fixing anything that requires attention in a woman's life. I say, get yourself some kind of device to satisfy yourself with, and avoid all the problems that illicit sex involves--those problems have never gone away.
62
Do I detect some bitterness toward men?
5
Am I missing something?? Isn't this one of the reasons people get a divorce ??? Problem solved...
10
Who can afford divorce?
1
Puritans posting aside, this is the first question posed once the oldest profession hung out a shingle. Problem solved. Perhaps he's just looking in the wrong place.
The letter writer clearly hasn't googled his problem enough or even thought it through properly, yet the answer is puritan one, not a practical one.
Women encounter this problem as well when their man isn't up to snuff.
13
Women, no matter their profession, do not deserve to be treated with such disrespect. Sex is not an entitlement.
2
Sir, I think you got most of it wrong--ethically--in your advice to the man whose wife did not desire to ever have sex again. While you got it right on consent of all parties to an open sexual relationship, I believe you slipped up badly in your advice to him. First, your warning about sex with another consenting adult--you warned that sex can lead to a romantic relationship. Well, sir, that can actually happen. And if so, so what. The gentleman who wrote you for advice is obviously a smart, savvy man. He knows how the world turns. I am sure he can handle any 'complications' that might come up.
Second: You totally missed the mark on advocating masturbation. Yes, it can be a temporary solution (and good for his prostate), but onanism is nothing close to having sex and fun with another warm human being. I think your answer to this gentleman disrespected his human needs and revealed that you never matured, as I did, between 1965 and 1975. You are morally poorer for not having the privilege of learning from those years. You owe this gentleman more. Please write him back--privately--after you reconsider your initial response.
23
An argument for the sin of Onan? In other words, if your spouse makes the decision to permanently deny you sex, the ethical response is to masturbate for the rest of your life? Bull. "To love and to cherish" works both ways. To "love and to cherish" means to help each other through. Exactly how depends on the spouses—but if love, honesty, and commitment stay in the forefront, you can work it out. It might take a bit of trial and error. But you find a way. There are therapists that can help you through if needed.
26
My father developed severe hearing loss in his 60s. It was hard to have anything but a simple conversation with him that involved shouting and repeating things multiple times. I sure it was hard on my mother. Would it have been OK for her to seek the compay of a man who would have been a better companion?
7
Presumably your mother didn’t enter a commitment that precludes conversations with people other than her husband?
41
mary: part of what is despicable here, is that many of the men posting heartless comments, have absolutely no consideration that this CUTS BOTH WAYS.
What about a man who becomes impotent? has prostate cancer or surgery? needs a catheter? is paralyzed from the waist down?
Does his wife have a right to cheat on HIM? can she use his dependence on her -- his fear and loneliness -- to compel him to "agree" to an open marriage or polyamory?
I've seen situations like your dad's and it is very sad -- mostly because 90% of cases could be solved with a hearing aid -- but some people are just incredibly stubborn and refuse to get help for failing hearing.
4
Maybe.
The last item is really resonating with me.
I frequent an online community with people who tend to keep their personal information offline. One of our members, who had been harassed online in the past and specifically laid out why she was not posting personal information in our group, died of cancer a few years back. Another member took it upon herself to then write up a description of her real-world life, with her real name, her husband's name, and several things of note she'd done.
While the death hit us all hard, and I assume that she meant well, I really resent the other member for "outing" her. The deceased member's extended family doesn't deserve to find out information in this way. She's not around the deceased member's day-to-day world to see the effects of her posts. And while we have occasional get-togethers, and she has attended in the past, I refuse to share anything about myself with her.
I likely won't confront her (w/o provocation), but it intensely irks me that she thinks she gets to decide what works for others.
16
I am appalled by the harshness of the answers to the first letter, both from the columnist and the readers.
Either sex is important (and then the husband has the right to seek a compromise that tends to both his and his wife's needs) either it is not (and then what's the big deal?). You cannot have both ends of the deal. Most of you suggest that he should not be seeking something so irrelevant and egotists as sexual satisfaction... but on the same breath that seeking sexual gratification is a huge breach of marital contract. Make your minds already.
You all need to read Dan Savage. Urgently.
35
...or Dear Abby, where this letter most definitely belongs.
5
Yes.
Then, maybe, no.
Is it unethical for The Ethicist to use the word "masturbation"?? Is The Ethicist too prudish for this? Call in the obscure biblical character, Onan! Why?
Is The Ethicist aware that onanism more commonly refers to coitus interruptus than to masturbation? Clearly, the man's wife won't be any more interested in that than she is in completed intercourse.
Isn't it ethical to call a spade a spade? Why the silly word playing, especially when the played word, albeit exotic, is mostly incorrect?
31
Thanks for the update. It seems Merriam-Webster got it backwards.
He’s an academic. This is his version of clever. Of humor. Check out an NPR game show to hear more. Warning!: don’t have any implement handy that could be used to off yourself.
1
Did you miss the phrase " where there’s only yourself to fall in love with." The man has put the cart before the horse, (a cliche from an former time). His desire for sex is all about his so-called needs. It is a huge problem that so some men see women only as sex objects. Being subjected to that is demeaning. Maybe there are some women who do the same. But one's desire for sex is not the entitlement that so many men project onto women.
1
There's another possibility for a course of action for the first advice seeker here. It's a very good point that a sexual affair could easily result in real feelings, and the man might find his marriage under a lot of stress just from that, or might see it fall apart. And the "sin of Onan" probably isn't sufficient to deal with the urges he still feels.
Luckily, he won't feel those urges forever, I doubt more than one in a million men over 80 feels much need or ability to have sex anymore. But until that eventuality, why not turn to prostitution? There's no threat of a prostitute breaking up the marriage, if the wife is OK with it, and there won't be any romantic love involved. And prostitutes these days really prefer safe sex, so there won't be much risk of STD's. It's illegal in most states, but hey, everybody breaks the law, it's not that big a deal. So that'd be my advice for the guy.
As to the other two letters, they were so vague it's tough to know what to say. But for the person concerned about the privacy of someone who committed suicide, I'd say don't be. They're gone, nothing can be done for them now, and it's far better to have the reason they died be explained and disseminated, than for people to think they committed suicide for no reason. Best to save the lives of people still alive, than to save the privacy of the dead.
7
You are so wrong on so many points.
7
Dan Stackhouse: what you DO NOT KNOW about women, relationships, marriage and even old age....would fill the Atlantic Ocean.
Dude, just how young ARE you?
People over 80 do have sex -- not just "one in a million" -- and BTW, most women desire sex their whole lives.
What destroys sexual desire for most people as they age is illness and disability. It's pretty difficult to want sex, when it hurts -- when you have pain or scars -- when you've just had surgery, radiation or chemotherapy -- when you are paralyzed -- when you have a catheter or a colostomy bag or worse.
This can happen to any of us -- yes even young folks like you -- but if you know people over 70, you know this is a SERIOUS risk of aging. It's wonderful when two healthy seniors grow old together, and enjoy a wonderful love life up to the end - -but that's pure luck. For most people,one party of the couple gets ill before the other.
That's why we have marriage VOWS and why those vows say "in sickness or in health". That means precisely this situation. If your partner loses the ability to have sex....you accept that as one of the risks of life. And you don't use it as an excuse to cheat.
Also: I feel pretty sure that most women would not be happier to know their husband was cheating with a prostitute vs. cheating with another ordinary woman. And prostitutes carry awful STDs. Also, men have been known to fall in love with prostitutes they see regularly.
4
And what if the husband can’t ‘do it’ anymore and now expects the wife to do weird stuff with which she is not comfortable so he can get off. He won’t consider masturbation. It is not always the wife’s fault!
I agree with the comment that men should stop trolling women for sexual pleasure. What is wrong with masterbation? No one here seems to think it is an adequate activity, but it certainly is for a man in a relationship with a woman he claims to love. Women are not commoditie sto have sex with. This idea on all people's parts needs to stop. The ethicist stated that this sex would likelt lead to a relationship that competes with the spouse. True. If all it is just sex, no woman is needed.
22
Perhaps Appiah should retitle this column "the moralist". How can marriage vows not be renegotiated over a lifetime? Why assume that their marriage vows involved a traditional form of monogamy? Why assume that somehow his wife isn't 100% ok with him having sex outside the relationship? The desire for sex is a normal, healthy part of a person. If his wife was his business partner and no longer able to work in the business would the ethicist condemn this man for seeking out a new business partner?
17
I suppose this analogy would work if sex in a marriage was simply a business transaction, which I guess is the way you see it. Ugh.
What kind of jerks that he would ask his wife for permission to go out and have fun? I think life is too easy for him. He has too much energy and no place to let it out. Our medical industry is very good at solving problems. I am sure a specialist would find a way to quench his thirst for sex. Better yet, he can serve as a sample to study "How to solve too much energy problems for elder folks."
4
I’m pretty sure sex will quench one’s desire for sex.
6
Yes, indeed. Let’s get Big Pharma on the case of developing drugs that “quench” men’s libido. Drugs: America’s answer to absolutely everything. I look forward to the marketing campaigns - on WE and Lifetime, no doubt. And Paltrow will have a Goop “quencher”. But seriously, isn’t castration just the ticket you’re looking for?
1
Look as at this man's options (which are the same as a women would have):
1. Abandon his wife, leaving her alone and probably poor.
2. Seek comfort from someone else. This will likely lead to sadness of all involved.
3. Pay for sex. That's probably not very comforting and certainly exploitive.
4. Spend this rest of his life without any comfort and descend into depression, which is a common result of this situation.
It's unfortunate that his wife doesn't recognize that this isn't just about sex. It's about the serenity and comfort of close physical contact. While she might not be interested in sex, she could still choose to be physically close and comforting. She has chosen to break her vows by not providing at least this level of comfort and companionship. He has, at least, chosen not to abandon his wife.
10
You are really a glass half empty kind of guy huh.
There are certainly more options that those.
5. Divorce, equitably split their assets, and be fine financially and remain close friends.
6. Find a group that does not believe in monogamy. Not that uncommon, this guy did not do too much research, combine with a don't ask don't tell rule. Not uncommon at all.
7. This guy would not be writing this if he was happy, so the marriage is unhappy. Get out, find a mature way to do it given your circumstances. Things we may have said in wedding vows when we were at a young age are not carved in stone. Live changes. 50% of marriages end in divorce, that's a lot of unethical people if you believe that silliness.
4
This is definitely written by a man!
I really empathize with the man whose wife won't have sex with him anymore. Not surprised at the negative feedback that he should just suck it up and go without; we live in a rigid society where many people dogmatically stick to absolutes, especially about sex. But the withholding of sex is a harsh regime for the partner who desperately wants that intimacy and release with their spouse, a cruel turn of events that can and will result in the dissolution of the relationship. I don't begrudge the wife for not wanting intercourse if it's become uncomfortable, but do her health issues prevent her from performing oral or manual sex with her husband? If not, and if she truly loves her husband, she would try to meet his needs with those techniques instead of ignoring him.
11
The writer says she's not refusing, she is not physically able, sheesh!
Having said that, if they both freely agree, sex workers.
2
What is all this cute masking of a male's greed for sexual service on demand with the terms "intimacy" and "comfort?" I don't think those words mean what you think they mean.
2
May I remind the man of his wedding vows: “In sickness and in health”? “To love, honor, and cherish”? (Emphasis on “honor” here.) Either he respects them, or he doesn’t.
It sounds like sex has become a top priority for this man, even though his wife now has health issues that preclude it. Asking her if it’s okay to look elsewhere is insuiting and demeaning, and is reducing sex to its basest form: satisfying a biological urge rather than deepening the emotional bond and connection with a committed partner. If I were the wife, I’d be deeply hurt. Who is to say that SHE likewise doesn’t miss the intimacy? Apparently, this is selfishly all about HIM.
Sex need not resuit in intercourse every single time. If it is that important to the man, maybe couples therapy or sex therapy will help to discover alternate forms of intimacy that will keep the marriage intact. Looking for partners on dating sites is not the answer here (and is just asking for trouble, IMHO), and I think it points to even deeper issues in their relationship if he thinks this is a viable option to his “problem.”
14
As a marriage counselor opined about post-menopausal non-sex:
You can get a divorce, have an affair or "deal with it".
For what it's worth - and I know this to be a fact:
Many post-menopausal couples satisfy their sexual desires through mutual oral sex; and develop quite a taste for it once they get the hang of it.
15
Yup. There are so-o-o many ways to be intimate and to fill each others' sexual needs and desires in loving ways.
2
'Dating' is a coy euphemism that, by overgeneralising and implying without spelling out behaviour, misleads more than it informs. Having sex with a person (or, indeed, with more than one person at the same time) is distinct from so-called 'dating'.
To 'date' a person, that is to say to meet up with them and share an experience together, even if no sexual contact is involved, may be more intimate than hiring a room and paying a prostitute.
If one needs sexual release, then there is no need for another person. One's imagination, a story, a picture or a film, plus a box of tissues will suffice.
3
I once represented a 60 year old man in a legal matter (business related) who met a 30 year old woman while waiting in line to pay for gas. Somehow, they fell into a deep, blissful love. His wife at that time was in her 60s and in a nursing home. She had dementia that had been diagnosed 10 years earlier. He came back to me a year later to file a divorce so he could move one with the 30 year old woman. As my office was preparing the paperwork, his wife died. Here's where it gets interesting: the once-blissful man fell into a deep depression. He was grieving profoundly. The relationship with the young woman ended. He lost 50 pounds. His business world came to a standstill. He slowly recovered in some ways, but to this day remains single and heartbroken over his wife's passing. Powerful stuff.
38
Prof. Appiah's response to the first query is appropriately cautious. The husband's understandable difficulty accepting a sex-free (sex-empty?) marriage tells only one side of the story, however. He does not reveal the nature of his wife's worsening health. Is she on libido-lowering medication? Has she had a radical hysterectomy for cervical cancer which can make penetrative sex very painful? My million dollar question is: has he, or they, tried to address this enforced marital abstinence from a medical perspective? Are there alternative therapies that do not involve going to third parties for sex?
11
kind of the end of life for normal totally non-public men
2
The first letter writer essentially is crowd-sourcing blessings to juggle two women, devaluing the hypothetical third corner of his sought-after triangle. But this theoretical “release valve” also will be a human being, with her own wants, needs and complications. Intimacy is messy, with emotions and insecurities taking unpredictable directions. One can’t expect his outlet on the side to be as uninvolved and impassive as merchandise from a catalog.
25
To "Name withheld" Please read and tune in to Dan Savage at the Stranger for a fresh and HONEST perspective on relationships and human sexuality!!
9
Though not as old as the writer of the letter, I have had the opportunity to dabble with open relationships from time to time in my life. Though there are exceptions, it has been my experience that U.S. society is unfortunately just not that accepting of the concept. Apparently the only allowable model by mainstream society forces people to choose from very narrowly defined categories: single, married, divorced. Nothing else seems to be condoned, even when, as in the writers situation, an open relationship would probably be the most logical and positive option. But no, society would say that if this man wants sex, he's got to throw away all those decades with his wife and get divorced. Frankly, it doesn't make sense, and our society really needs to grow up.
12
You clearly don't know anything about women.
1
Another angle on the "elsewhere after 60.." I'm part of a circle of artist friends who are open enough, and many do have this type of arrangement. I consider them mature and realistic, and also in all cases where it works, the couple is emotionally attached in such a way there is no question of them parting, regardless of what happens.
One unexpected wrinkle that cropped up was when she wanted sex, and he had multiple heart failures and was frail. He generously said, "do what you like, dear," and even welcomed the younger man she found into their new circle of three. What the man in the situation wasn't prepared for was his jealousy not of the sex, but of her new contentment. She had the contentment of both emotional happiness with him and bliss of sex with another. He struggled hard at the contentment she found outside of him, not at the orgasms with another.
Yet, they continued on and he accepted the struggle. When he passed, her grief was inconsolable. She still would have picked him above all. Either way, how you decide to live it with your partner it's not easier, just different.
16
If you're married, you have no right to demand monogamy while simultaneously declaring that you are done with sex. Either give your partner permission and live with it or divorce. I mean, how dare this man want sex!
14
No, you can’t cheat on your wife even if you conned and/or cajoled her into a thumbs up. Why? Because it is wrong.
12
I think sexual fidelity is unnecessary. Fidelity in intimacy is crucial. Probably the LW won't know the difference. I doubt he ever satisfied his wife's desire for intimacy. It seems from his letter that his feelings are centered in his groin.
17
A marriage relationship is not the same without sex. Consider getting a divorce. Physical attraction makes a huge difference in a relationship and if there isn't any or it can't be consummated it's going to diminish your feelings for her. More and more you will be thinking and looking elsewhere, and that's not fair to your spouse.
3
It seems that Prof. Appiah is making some assumptions with the sex deprived man by starting out "Marital vows..." and ending with "the sin of Onan."
Granted that the temper of our time is in full revolt to the 60s sensibility, this guy should want to look his "flower child" past, even if he might not have been one himself.
Perhaps he was using the wrong dating sites. Perhaps he should try some millennial version like Tinder or cheating site even if he is not really cheating. Even if he develops emotional bond with other people subsequently, it is strictly between him, his wife and his heart's if not soul's desire.
Assuming this person is real, perhaps he is overthinking it and getting a philosophical exposition with hypotheticals will not solve his problem
14
It was worth staying up until 1:30am in France, reading these comments to find this perle...Merci.
We have a culture in the US, where men trade in their older wives on a frequent basis. Hence the overwhelmingly negative reactions from women on the dating sites he's chosen. You also have to consider this man's age. I would have some sympathy for his situation, were he younger, but enough's enough.
Presumably he had a decent sex life for years and after menopause sex is difficult for women, and you have to deal with that. When I married at 30 it was with the realization that I would grow old with a person I uniquely liked and loved. Whatever that entailed. We had great sex for years, but I'm OK, now, without it.
In your teens and twenties the self is not integrated. Sex can be something by itself. At 60 years, if you can jump into bed with a stranger, you probably have not grown up.
133
The idea that menopause decreases sexual activity is just incorrect, but it does make a terrific excuse to keep away from men who don't know any better.
4
YOU may be OK without it, but you don't get to dictate that for somebody else. Has it ever occurred to you that other people might NOT be OK without it, even at 60?
6
Perhaps he just has a bigger drive than you.
>At 60 years, if you can jump into bed with a stranger, you probably have not grown up.
Or maybe you haven't given up hope.
I myself wouldn't have answered this ad because I retain (delusional) hope for something lasting.
5
In reference to the man in his mid-60s whose "wife's health has worsened and she is no longer interested in any sex." He states he asked her for permission to seek sexual intimacy elsewhere but in this letter it isn't clear if she said "go ahead". If she did agree [and it could have just as easily been freely given as resented] the gentleman still may have conflicts as he has "distress, guilt, grief , fears, angst making the filling out of a rudimentary form complex. You don't need to cover chapter and verse of your life until you meet and are getting acquainted. It illustrates that he is uncomfortable but in need and needing help to figure this all out. Whenever complex issues arrive in a relationship usually partners aren't in exactly the same place at the same time. People age differently and sexual desire does not disappear. Needs for affection, intimacy, sexual release which decreases anxiety and depression in many people can create conflict in later years/retirement. A sensitive, informed physician or psychologist/counselor who is skilled in geriatric concerns would be a good resource. To assume the man doesn't love, cherish care for his wife is at the least unfair. Often marital therapist see a couple then meet individually with each to clarify points of view then returning to the couple to discuss certain problems. Reality this needs some 1:1 or 1:2 work. Full disclosure I'm a PhD psychologist specializing in individual and couples therapy.
48
Men have sex outside of marital relationships all the time. This man is at least trying to be open and honest about it, but you can see the scrutiny he is under. Suggestions that he go to a therapist or see a doctor. The bottom line is that if you want to find someone who is just a sex partner to fill in for what your wife can't give you, you are going to have to pay for it one way or another; either by finding a sex worker or offering gifts to the woman you are having an affair with. Nothing in this life is free. If you can't afford it, then there are a lot of porn sites on the Internet, and some of those are even free.
9
Thank you for not giving your full name as a way to market yourself. I am actually in awe of your humility and doing that. It doesn't happen that much.
6
Did LW1's wife not renegotiate their vows when she declared she was no longer sexually available? Just because this man is in his 60s does not mean he should be forced to forgo that very important part of his being for the rest of his life. He did not get to consent to that. While the wife has an absolute right to decline sex from now until her death, it's more ethically dubious to suggest that her husband should never again be allowed to have sex as a result.
190
Perhaps a promise to always be healthy enough to be a willing sexual partner is evident in some peoples' wedding vows...? I have yet to witness a wedding where this is the case. In fact, the vows I have heard include the phrase ".. in sickness and in health, 'til death do us part".
5
Suppose the first letter contained the same predicament, but with the genders reversed. As in: my husband, whom I love dearly, can no longer provide sex due to his recent treatment for prostate cancer. This has changed the terms of our relationship, and I would like to seek sex elsewhere. Just because I'm in my 60s doesn't mean I should be forced to forgo this important part of my life.
Would your response be the same?
7
Best joke I've heard all day. The "intimacy and comfort" from sex that these men demand applies only to them; their wives are there only to provide that service, not receive it.
10
The amount of hypocrisy and self-delusion on dating sites is mind-boggling. People who are incapable of sustaining a healthy relationship will swear the gods that they are looking for a committed relationship and rain judgement on others as to what is appropriate or not in a relationship. They will enter relationships that are antithetical to what they claim they are looking for and then be surprised that everybody seems confused. Also, honesty is given zero credit as so many people are looking for a fairy tale. They know everybody else story is baloney, but if you acknowledge your shortcomings honestly, they will just skip to the next profile. It is like they are looking to buy a brand new Mercedes for 10K and they get mad when you try to tell them that maybe they can get a second hand Toyota, which is decent and reliable. On standard dating sites, a certain amount of deception is almost unavoidable. As other stated, you would be much better in doing it the old school way, getting out and meeting new people. At the same time, if this is to work, you probably want also to get out with your wife, as much as her health allows, to show her that she is your true mate. I would recommend dancing classes. With a good, fun teacher, it does marvels for intimacy!
25
Right on. They want say they want honestly, but reject everyone who's honest.
4
"The sin of Onan?" Even if the ancient "Levirate duty" of providing one's older brother's childless widow with an heir still existed, I don't see how that's relevant to the first writer (or to anyone else).
Could our Ethicist possibly be referring to the most common human sexual practice, which The Times apparently does not allow to be named? This ubiquitous act is often erroneously attributed to Onan. That's a tribute to the inventiveness of Jewish and Christian clergy. They saw an inexplicable story, presumably intended to impress upon its readers the importance of the then-sacred Levirate duty, as an opportunity to put their own Eternal Living Words in God's mouth: The Lord strongly disapproves of any form of sex other than a married couple performing their duty to produce new Jews and Christians.
Regardless, it's almost a certainty that the husband practices the ubiquitous act as our Ethicist suggests, but finds it somehow lacking. A difficult situation, to be sure. It would be as wrong to insist that the wife "submit" at least occasionally as to insist that the husband make a heroic effort to suppress his desire for the rest of his life. But if the wife genuinely accepts him seeking satisfaction elsewhere, and he isn't consumed by guilt about it, that part of the problem is taken care of.
Maybe then he should specifically look for his female counterpart, a woman with intact desires whose husband is uninterested in sex. She would likely be most understanding.
29
I tried to point out, what the guy needs is a prostitute. Nothing inherently wrong with that, I figure, but we'll see if it posts.
1
the first writer should have written to Dan Savage...this is a regular topic in his blog and on his podcast and I'd guess he'd tell you this predicament is more common than you'd think, and that you should use more liberal dating sites. marriage vows can and must be renegotiated over time and need for sexual intimacy is real and valid. better an open marriage than a terminated one.
119
"better an open marriage than a terminated one."
As long as the partner agrees. I'll bet this wife's not happy about it.
3
Mr. Savage has described women's genitalia as looking like a "canned ham dropped from a great height." I'm not sure his opinion on anything involving women is worth considering.
23
Most of us in the age group reflected in the article have been taught all our lives that others are responsible for our feelings, and therefore, for getting our needs met. If we are unhappy, it is because of others not meeting our needs.
Others intuitively know or have been introduced to the idea that we can only be responsible for (response able) that which we can control. We can control our behavior and our intent. We have no control over how our behavior or intent is interpreted, or over the feelings that come up from those interpretations. Likewise, we interpret others behavior and intent, and we are responsible for our interpretation, for choosing the feelings that come up from those interpretations in order to get our needs met. We choose our feelings based on getting our needs met, we can ask others to do something to help us, but ultimately, it is our responsibility.
Being empathetic to ourselves and others in our relationships, taking responsibility for our feelings and getting our needs met, allows for everyone to be fully alive.
For "Name Withheld" one solution is professional: a sex worker. Solves many of your ethical problems: no obligation, clear quid pro quo, and he satisfies physical intimacy needs.
Why does this option not occur to you, the author of this column? Therein lies a ethical issue for you: not disclosing your subjective moral judgment, your (unconscious?) Puritanism. Ethics need not confine us to a narrow morality.
79
Perhaps the author was aware of THE LAW --- Patronizing sex workers often promotes sexual slavery and drug abuse.
3
Bravo!
Get involved in a hobby, volunteer all over the place, take cold showers.
13
So cute.
5
Sure, talk to the GOP they experts on the right way and the wrong way.
12
Didn't your vows include some version of "for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health ..."?
Sexual intimacy is more than sex, and a truly loving relationship must include trust and respect. Having "dates" to fulfill your unmet needs takes time, and how often is enough? Once a week? Twice? Will you fall asleep after and spend the night? How will she feel when you return glowing with sexual satisfaction and pride in your manhood, especially when she is "not enough"? Will you begin talking about this woman/these women? She may reasonably fear that you'll fall in love with a woman who makes you feel like "more of a man" and leave, or that she'll have to endure the pitying whispers of friends who saw you with another woman.
Older women often need more kissing and touching to get aroused than they did before and can experience dryness and pain, while their husbands may have become complacent about enticing them. She may shy away because she feels old and unattractive, and need a bit of reassurance. Have the two of you really tried everything you can? Going outside hardly seems worth the potential costs to your relationship.
67
In a word, No. We entered our names on the register at the relevant government offices and went out to dinner. And that was that.
"Marital vows should not, in ordinary circumstances, be subject to renegotiation."
This extreme position ignores the vicissitudes of life and challenges that any long-term, serious relationship encounters. I don't find Mr. Appiah's comments on this matter helpful. The wife has clearly stated she's "no longer interested in sex of any kind." The husband has been very honest with his wife and potential partners about his desires and situation. Mr. Appiah notes that the husband could work through the hostile comments but worries about the consequences of the husband having sex with another woman--"you don't actually know where an affair might lead."
Welcome to life, Mr. Appiah! One possible and quite acceptable outcome is that the husband and wife happily agree to separate or divorce and remain friends! Their current state of marriage is not necessarily the best or most ethical arrangement for them. People should be free to pursue their own happiness as long as they are respectful and not hurtful towards others.
26
Marriage is specifically designed to acknowledge the vicissitudes of life YOU MUST BEAR them together. -- Marriage vows DO NOT state until one of you gets sick, until one of you is poorer, until one of you or things get worse
8
Privacy of dead people is tough. Many people have secrets they want to take to their grave. Even after we die, our reputation and legacy continues. Therefore, the death of a person does not immediately cancel obligations of privacy.
However, in this case, what is being kept private could also help others. I think the best course of action here would have been to disclose the condition, but keep any intimate details anonymous. If possible, share similar instances (or even the actual instances if they can be made anonymous) to help explain the symptoms. Maybe even anonymize the whole thing (though things stick less when it's someone else, even if it is a random occurrence).
On the "don't share at all" side, there is something to be said for it being an unusual condition and such disclosure being unlikely to actually help anyone.
6
Some people just don't get it when it comes to privacy. Short of having their privacy violated (which might not be that easy if they are very public about their private matters), they can only learn by being told they've done wrong. They don't necessarily realize they've done anything wrong.
Some people are sinister and use the guise of honoring someone to out him/her. These people know what they're doing is wrong, but choose to do so anyway, pretending to have plausible deniability if challenged. These people must be confronted and challenged (not necessarily by the outed party).
The first course of action aught to be to demand (or have someone demand) that the post be deleted. Not sure of the next course of action.
8
Re My Wife Is Done With Sex: looking for sex without emotion?
Hire a hooker. It's an ancient and honorable tradition.
183
I don't have personal experience of this, but I've read repeatedly in sex advice columns such as Dan Savage's "Savage Love" that it's not unusual for a sex worker to have regular clients with whom she has a friendly professional relationship --- sort of like having a regular massage therapist.
31
Sure thing, risk a STD or an arrest and support the exploitation of women.
Nothing honorable about that, unless you don’t have a clue what honorable means.
6
...
For better of for worse, in sickness and in health.......
Just saying.
25
With both parties freely obtained acquiescence......
Just sayin'
9
Those were your vows, Gwe. Not all are the same.
9
Then why do so many people get divorced. They are not sick. Just saying. Women want security. Take that away. All of a sudden they will be awakened. Just sayin.
1
A man’s wife has dementia and has been in a nursing home more than a decade , 12 years to be exact. She is in vegetate states , doesn’t recognize anybody, doesn’t talk, can’t walk , can’t feed herself. Her husband is a healthy man in his late 60. I would like to date he said, I’m lonely and I still have sexually feelings BUT BUT his mother in law always around and keeps reminding him that he’s married ( she doesn’t want him to date). He is in a difficult situation he said . How about your children I asked ?( they have 4 grown children that all moved out of the house ). I don’t want to bring up the matter to them he said because they will split , some might understand my feeling and some don’t and it will break up my family. But he is serious on getting a date. I will tell the woman he said ( in person dating , no internet dating ) and if she is ok then we will do it behind everybody’s back!
Every time I see him, I feel sorry for him because it’s not going to work they way he plans it.
What should one do?
9
If you care about this person and are close to them, you can certainly bring up your concerns. But then you have to stand back, and let this adult man make his own choices, and the people around them make theirs.
Hard to watch something you believe will lead to heartache, though, eh?
8
Has your wife ever had to compromise, to give up something she valued in her relationship with you? Has she ever felt she needed more emotional support, romance, kindness, help with household chores, childcare, financial agreement, understanding, time? Might she ever have felt you did not contribute your share? Would it have been fine with you for her to go find what she needed with another man?
Marriage is compromise, on many many issues. My guess is that she has had to compromise, be disappointed and go without, and yet she stayed committed to you.
There is a reason why we vow "forsaking all others" - because there will always be times, on both sides and on many issues, where the partner fails to be enough. Sticking it out and forsaking all others when the partner fails to satisfy - whether or not you have been given 'permission' - is the measure of true commitment. Finding someone else is not.
155
We don't all vow what is traditional to most Americans and some commenters think is required. organic farmer is not the only one jumping to a conclusion. The jump may be right, but we don't know, and if it is, we don't know that the people involved think it has to be the same vow forever.
9
A vow is not a sentence to be served.
Jumping to the conclusion that LW2 is upset about being outed as gay is really odd to me. My immediate thought when I read "An extended family member posted very private information about me on a social media platform under the guise of honoring me" was that this extended family member was taking it upon themselves to "#MeToo" with someone else's story. "My beloved Aunt was raped years ago, I will now describe the time and place and perpetrator in detail, and I am so inspired by how she put her life together after this brutal violation..."
Also, the response to LW1 really is offensive. So many outdated and off-putting assumptions I don't know where to start (but other commenters have done a good job breaking it down). We know both of these letters are fairly contemporary, due to their references to social media and internet dating, but is there any chance The Ethicist is writing his replies from 1952?
46
I didn't necessarily read Appiah's response as jumping to that specific conclusion (although I can also read it that way, and the letter is fully consistent with that being what happened). He does qualify his statement by saying that one can be "outed" as a variety of identities. The letter does seem to describe an "outing" of some sort.
My immediate thought was that it was related to an illness. However, I'm by no means certain of it - it is just the first thing I thought of.
How is the first response offensive? Is it the statement that most women on the dating site would want a romantic relationship? I think that's a pretty fair assumption for ANYONE on a dating site, save for a few sites I won't mention by name.
9
Regarding "outing", the author clearly defines his terminology:
"The word originally referred to the exposure of someone as gay or lesbian, but now people speak of the outing of any of a host of identities or circumstances that a person may have a reason to keep private."
5
Assuming all parties agree (of their own free will) to the old-folks arrangement, I don't see it as an ethical issue. Sure, it's a moral issue to many of us (and not at all to many others), and there are psychological issues that may arise from it, but not an ethical issue.
If the question were "My wife doesn't want to or can't do it with me any more, can I get some on the side and not tell her?", then we'd have a question to do with ethics.
28
Precisely. Where is the ethical dilemma here?
11
#1
Your words; happily married, continue to cherish her and healthy and normal are all betrayed by your very explanation.
30
As a long married 70 year old woman, navigating the somewhat normal waters of diminishing health as we age, I would like to suggest another strategy. Intimacy has very many forms and the wife here seems to be ruling out all of its many manifestations. Or is she? Has this man, typical of his peers, had an increase in anxiety about his own sexuality causing him to make demands she finds unacceptable? I recommend counselling to explore the possibilities that there are still many areas left for them to find sexual intimacy. If not, it could be that they are no longer in love.
155
I believe counseling would help also. There are many, many forms and ways of enjoying physical intimacy but I am not sure, though, it is the wife who is ruling them all out.
"Perhaps" she is ruling actual intercourse out but there are so many other ways to pleasure each other tand oneself hat we may enjoy along with or more than intercourse. Is the husband open to these? Is she?
Too, he says she has health issues but not that those issues outright preclude sexual intimacy, only that she declared she is no longer interested in sexual intimacy. Does she mistakenly assume that her health is negatively impacted by sexual intercourse? Is she depressed about her health and the depression is leading to a lessening in desire? Does depression worsen other health problems she has?
As for the man, you might be right that he is experiencing sexual anxiety. He may also just not be accepting the fact that he is also aging. Normal aging carries with it any number of changes. Perhaps he needs to explore his own feelings about the inevitability of change through introspection and reading and professional help.
Sexual intimacy is not a toggle switch. It is more an ongoing adjustment of the temperature and volume of a faucet. That is true of most aspects of marriage. These folks may not have fallen out of love so much as needing to become more in sync. The Ethicist should have suggested that counseling and reflection are key to any ethical resolution for LW1 and his wife.
18
the author recommends masturbation --- the wife can't do that for him? or the husband doesn't want that he's been looking for a cheat card for years
7
Polyamory has become a more visible lifestyle, and I'm sure people in this man's position have found agreeable partners there. Trying googling terms for polyamorous meetups, dating sites, and conventions. It sounds as if the main issue now is finding a woman respectful of non-traditional arrangements...and there are a lot of nice people out there who are.
I've never been all that interested in sex (which is true of a fair number of women), as it routinely gives me bladder infections and frankly, little pleasure. In my younger years, it was the means to an end to engage in companionship and possibly have children. Like your wife, I would have been perfectly fine with any mate having something on the side while continuing our relationship...it that was what he also wanted. That seems to be the case here.
You're not likely to find a caring sexual relationship on traditional dating sites, but I am confident the polyamory community would offer some like-minded people. I know two households from this community, and they are kind, professional and respectable people.
86
Respectable?
Hardly.
4
This is a horrible idea. The polyamory scene, for outsiders, is far from hospitable. Almost 3/4 is younger couples where the woman has grudgingly consented to put up with this to preserve her marriage so they are looking for a woman who will be a) attractive enough to keep the guy diverted and b) not so attractive that she will pose a threat to the women and c) footloose enough so that she will move on soon anyway.
Successful situations I've seen are traditional polygamous households, very often bikers who share their women other than the primary wife. Very much like a harem. Then there are a few households who stumble into this, find it workable, and then find out what to call it.
2
Ladies: who is looking for a 60 year old man with a wife at home who is so impressed with his prowess that she told him to go get it elsewhere
12
I'm just appalled by these violations of privacy! I do not participate in any form of social media because of stories like this. It's an over-simplification, I realize, but I feel that most people on social media either overshare, spy on each other, or violate personal privacy.
34
You might, therefore, be forgiven if you refrained from reading them all.
1
Agree. (I don't use social media, either.)
I got an email the other day from a person who said she had noticed that a mutual acquaintance hadn't posted on her Facebook page for over a month. Could she be sick? Dead? Why no posts?
(Eeek.)
2
Apropos : when a partner is too ill or indisposed for sex. I thought that the part in the vows about "in sickness and in health, forsaking all others" should just about cover it. Sex is so intimate, and yet so minor considering all things, that the denial of this pleasure should be no obstacle to love and faithfulness. Choosing another would comprise a total rejection of me, if I were in that position, and engender too much resentment to continue what remains of the marriage.
104
Not every couple spoke those vows.
2
Maybe you are simply not mature enough to wish yoir partner all happiness he/she can get without fearing to lose him/her.
Sir, stop and think about how this could really affect your so-called cherished wife. Put the shoe on the other foot - how would you feel if she were just looking for 'release'? Is it really that important or is it just a question of ego or denial of the natural order of things (the vast majority of women over 60 have the same feelings as your wife and yet the male dominated pharmaceutical companies are still pushing viagra!!!) Perhaps you could focus your efforts elsewhere, like finding other rewarding things to do together with your 'beloved' wife.
78
Regarding marital vows. Yes, there is danger in your emotions following your sexual actions, thereby damaging your marriage. However, should you choose to continue searching, you may want to specify that you are only interested in women your age facing similar circumstances. No doubt there are women in marriages where prostate surgery or other circumstances - dementia- keep them from intimacy with their love. In short, look for an equal, not an upgrade, and you will more likely be seen as more than a dirty old man and someone sincere.
57
For the first person, why not recommend meeting with a sex worker as an alternative to trying to initiate a "friendly but not competitive relationship"? This seems the obvious solution to many of the ethical and practical dilemmas posed by his situation--though of course (for some people) it would introduce others. I'd be interested in the columnist's take on it.
14
For the first topic, the ethicist spends more time talking about 'how' the man would pursue an open relationship, rather than the ethical question of whether he should.
Being married does not give someone a license to issue ultimatums about their partner's sexuality. A spouse who declares an end to sexual intimacy is basically saying, "Unless you can make this work, I am leaving you." In this case, the husband can try to find a solution (celibacy or an open relationship), but the marriage is effectively over until that happens. To say that the marriage continues until the husband responds to the ultimatum is inaccurate and immoral - a transfer of blame that, from a feminist point of view, would be seen as manipulative and oppressive.
Anyone can end sexual relations with anyone else, including a spouse. If they make that choice, they forfeit all expectations of sexual fidelity, including from their spouse. Marriage vows are a means of mutual commitment, not one-sided control. The relationships may be complicated but the ethics are not.
99
The question of whether he should or not is no longer a question of ethics. He got permission from his wife (let's assume his wife really is OK with it and not just playing along), and seems to be open with his potential lovers about it. Let's also assume that the wife isn't just "uninterested", but unable (or would suffer by doing it). This is a case where morals and ethics diverge. The morals of many of us explicitly prohibit such an arrangement; those of many others would be OK with it. The ethical concern is whether or not it is done openly and freely, which seems to be satisfied.
10
What a pompous answer to the difficult question of imbalances in sexuality in a relationship. "Marital vows" imply a commitment from partners to provide appropriate levels of sexuality to each other, quantitatively and qualitatively. No one should be ashamed to have sexual needs and a basis of the relationship should be the fulfilment of those needs on terms agreeable to both partners. Long-term sexual deprivation can be extremely painful. Also while a nonsexual partner may seem not to experience any deprivation, it is not uncommon for the nonsexual partner to eventually becoming sexual - elsewhere. Poor health can obviously be a serious obstacle to a fulfilling sexuality. However, other possibilities need to be excluded. Partners who are ill might have a hard time dealing with the loss of autonomy and become depressed enough to dramatically reduce their sex drive or lose self-esteem and see themselves sexually unattractive. Or the illness might mask a degradation of the relationship that is not related to the disease. At any rate, it is only after those risks have been excluded that one can come back to the question of sexual exclusivity. There are serious risks for a relationship to have a nonsexual partner and a partner who is sexually active elsewhere. The nonsexual partner might feel threatened and the sexual partner might fall in love elsewhere. In any case, one should not judge someone who communicates with their partner in search of a meaningful solution.
14
All good points.
But I dare say it's possible to love two people at the same time. In love with two, no, but there are many kinds of valuable love, and one can love two partners simultaneously, respecting each one's needs, and of course being aware of your own.
5
Why doesn't a person's interest in privacy disappear when he dies? A dead person has no interests. The only reason not to reveal private information from a dead person is because someone living wishes it to remain private.
10
To the writer of the first letter: Go on CraigsList. Be honest. I'll bet you'll find someone.
4
"....where there's only yourself to fall in love with.." There you have it. Masturbate. Maybe while holding your wife?
29
To the man who wants to open his relationship up, and to The Ethicist -- I admire and support the difficult but important conversation that the married couple is having. The advice and comments by The Ethicist are so outdated and so sexist as to be offensive. To claim that most women, especially older women, are looking for a romantic relationship is hogwash. There are many women and men who simply want the fun and intimacy of a sexual relationship while maintaining the strong bonds with a life partner. Opening a relationship can bring rewards to everyone, and can make a difficult and unfulfilling, but important and cherished life long relationship the relief it needs to continue on and strengthen. The Ethicist is right - consent is important, but to suggest that the man's wife somehow "had" to give in was taking a stance we hardly know. That the man spoke honestly to his wife is a big step towards respecting consent. Instead of second guessing he and his wife's arrangement, and shaming him for looking for intimacy, it would be better to provide the resources to open the couple's world to polyamory -- books, dating sites, advice columns. Open relationships are labor intensive, and so providing support for couple who seek this is essential.
44
"To claim that most women, especially older women, are looking for a romantic relationship is hogwash."
I disagree. I think there's a pretty strong selection bias; most women (and men) on a dating site are probably looking for a romantic relationship.
7
To the guy who wants sex but his wife doesn't. Just because you want sex doesn't mean you should pursue it. Guys seem to think that every whim needs to be acted upon, and that they are always justified in seeking sexual gratification. On behalf of all women everywhere: your desire doesn't entitle you to anything.
Grow up!
178
He's not suggesting he's just going to take what he wants when he sees it, nor is he hiding anything from his wife. Had his wife said no, he would presumably just deal with it, or be under no impression that what he was doing was right.
P.S., way to stereotype men.
77
Wow, way to stereotype women as sexless, monolithic in belief, and frankly, annoying. I found his story to be both compelling and sympathetic. Imagine the shoe on the other foot, as was the case with my grandmother. Her husband refused to take care of his health and spent the last 15 years of their marriage as an invalid, whilst she sat hale and healthy by his bedside being bored to death and completely frustrated by the lack of intimacy, among many other things. No two marriages are alike, just as no two women are. Marriage is not a prison; and vows are not a sentence to be served. If both partners are in agreement, there is no reason he can't go outside his marriage to fulfill a very understandable and important need. Yes, doing so will likely create other issues, and those will have to be dealt with. Personally, should I ever walk in his shoes, I'll certainly be doing the same.
32
Well, this seems unfair. The wife said she is not "interested in sex of any kind," which I'm assuming means zero intimacy. Why should the husband have to become celibate if the wife makes a unilateral decision not to engage in any sex whatsoever? There is no indication that the wife is literally incapable of any type of sex due to her health - but even if she was, I think everyone' expectation that her healthy husband become totally monastic is quite unrealistic.
22
I just turned 60 and have to laugh at the illustration that is meant to go with a post by a man in his mid-60s. A gray-haired woman knitting, in a dowdy sweater, long skirt, and slippers, while her dark-haired husband gets his heart broken by looking at his phone. Ageist stereotypes, anyone?
As for the dilemma: I suggest the writer avoids dating sites, as they foster a supermarket or online shopping mindset - only what's being purchased is a set of traits parceled in a human being. It can work, but you will have to endure a lot of abuse and disappointment before you get lucky, if ever.
How to find women? Go out and volunteer, take a class, help at an animal shelter, whatever. There are many women out there who would see you as a person first, not a set of traits on an algorithm. Be honest and respectful. If someone likes you, you can explain your situation and take it from there. I cannot guarantee you'll never be called names again, but it's worth a try.
I respect the fact that monogamy is part of our dominant social paradigm, hypocrisy and all, but I agree with you that it's possible to make your own kind of marriage and keep mindful of everyone's feelings.
Good luck to you, and good health to your wife.
221
The picture of the dowdy old lady and her dark haired, virile husband is not a sexist stereotype but an illustration of the way the partners see themselves. The wife has renounced her sexuality, at least according to the LW. The husband, on the other hand, sees himself as a sexual being and wishes to remain so. The artist deliberately portrayed the couple this way.
6
The illustration is, in fact, the reverse of what can been seen every day in aging couples: It's the MAN who has a head of grey hair while the woman's hair is as dark as in her youth! Just another aspect of our many hypocrisies around age and sex...
6
Many men report that the "date" is not interested because she wants to get married, or wants a monogamous relationship even if it isn't marriage.
2
Wife done with Sex: THIS is the time for paying for IT. Not a streetwalker, with all that risk. An Escort Service, a sexual surrogate, etc. keep your identity secret and " dating " left to happy luck. SAFE sex, please.
29
LW #3: "this information could potentially lead me to help a friend in the future, is it O.K. that it is circulating after her death?" Not really the question at hand, as the info is in fact already circulating; so, judging that fact "O.K.", or not O.K., changes nothing.
The active question is, do YOU recirculate it to people you know? That would depend how you weigh the importance of honoring your classmate's privacy versus the importance of informing others, with (I assume) the aim of reducing isolation and preventing suicidality in others who suffer from the "condition" in question.
That's a question for you, not Dr. Appiah. As you think it over, consider whether the same educational/prevention goal can be achieved if you "anonymize" the story of the dead classmate, focusing not on her but on her condition; and whether such depersonalization perhaps makes use of her death in a way that does not honor it.
3
LW #1: "I asked her permission to seek a...sexual relationship elsewhere." And she said yes?
I agree with Dr. Appiah's "full disclosure" requirement, but more importantly with his warning: we cannot know where the emotions of you, your wife, and any future partner will lead your life once you take this path. Personally, I think the surest way to make my marriage collapse would be to seek sex outside of it, even with "permission."
I wish better health for your wife and your marriage.
40
LW #2: "I feel incapable of responding in an evenhanded way." You are not required to respond at all, nor respond in any evenhanded way. As I understand it, social media is heavily biased toward new posts, not older ones. A response brings on social the matter to the top of the heap again, whereas leaving it alone allows it to become dormant, though not disappear.
Perhaps contact the offending person by phone and ask him or her to take down the message in question, if you think that request is likely to be met; otherwise, sleeping dogs. There is after all an unavoidable price to be paid for trusting the wrong person; we can, however, avoid making that price go up through our own actions.
3
"Response" is more than a social-media response. It is a real response to the poster.
2
Referring to a Biblical passage that only obliquely addresses his issue in passive / aggressive way, isn't what I'd call "advice". I'm not sure I can put into print my description of it as it wouldn't rise to the standards of a respectable journalistic institution. When empathy loses out to magical thinking, we all lose.
11