Illiteracy is very common in muslim countries, you shall find many sayings like "Don't you think? Have you ever considered about?" in Holy Quran. I believe RELIGION IS FOR WHAT YOU ARE SHORT OF. Having a child without marriage at early ages is very common at Christian populations. Jesus Christ is the only Prophet that his birthday has been celebrated worldwide, although his death was whole misery. Have you ever wondered why God let him die like that and how did his mother suffer after his death? I did and I have a hypothesis that I can neither prove nor share.
1
The Lord Almighty has never had any need for an attorney.
That said, it will be up to the patriotic citizens of Alabama to demonstrate to Heaven, that Roy Moore deserves a legal trial in a court of law, in order to prove his innocence of child abuse, or go to jail.
Or the good people of Alabama could chose a wicked man to represent the state of Alabama, and show all the world their contempt of God's Laws.
8
Ah well ... Amen, amen ....
Wait ... if (the Virgin) Mary was a teen, and God (not Joseph) impregnated her .. and .... wait, my head is exploding.
Actually, Jesus is one of many "miraculous" births if you look at religions older than christianity. Just one more story in a series of stories ... anyway ....
We are speaking here of a real teenage girl (or girls) in a real world which should have real world consequences. Roy Moore (No More Moore!) has distinguished himself not as a juror or politician but as a buffoon and, now, as a pedophile. And, sadly, we are seeing a public who accepts it all as (somehow) normal ... yeah, just like virgin birth ...
Thank you, Nick, for another well-done column.
13
Moore is really a joke, when I see him talking and condemning others I just feel sorry for him. Now its up to the people of Alabama to show the rest of the world what kind of people they are. There has been lots of talk about Jesus and God, now lets see if they vote for the Devil.
11
Jesus, Mary, Joseph, and Roy Moore!
The Holy Ghost, Johannes Gutenberg, King James--or whoever you believe put the Bible in the hands of folksy Christians like Alabama's candidate for US Senato--are probably huddling right now over a possible recall of the Good Book.
4
The Christian Right is neither.
23
I believe Alabama has no statute of limitations for child molestation. But, instead of prosecuting him, the state attorney general is defending him. Has our country sunk so low that paedophiles can become judges -- or seek election to the U.S. Senate -- without retribution?
15
I believe most of Moore's support, like Trump's, is exactly tribalism. The tribe has excused so much, what's a little child molestation?
16
I don't care if St. Joseph did marry a much younger woman, he MARRIED her. Nowhere in the Bible does it say he undressed and fondled her.
Jeez! How to people pretzel themselves into such absurd comparisons.
8
If there were a benevolent god, there would not be a Roy Moore,
or a Donald Trump
or any other Republicans.
If there is a god, it is a money-loving sadist.
10
Do not worry about what God will do. We can all read it:
Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be thrown into the sea.
Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord.
5
God should sue him? Try "God should strike him dead..."
Do unto others? Maybe it's time for Mr. More-holier-than-thou to see what happens in prison to child molesters when they are convicted and sent to jail...after the same "fair" trial he'd accord those he hates, of course.
6
Yes, She should infrrf sue Roy Moore but She doesn´t need the money. Consequently, it´s up to the local Republican bigwigs and the electorate. After all, 14 is J.B., even in ´Bama.
4
Good for you, and for Rev. Eric Elnes.
3
Pedophiles are among the most despicable people on earth. Even other criminals despise them. In prison they are often murdered by other inmates. He won't get away with his crimes and should imprisoned. It is not toot late.
6
Since protecting or respecting children didn't make Moore's favorite top 10 list, he must have thought his behavior was ok.
2
Maybe we actually DESERVE to have a phony huckster like Moore in the Senate. After all we have a similar one in the White House. Then, maybe the American people will realize what a hole we've put ourselves in a find a way out!
6
“In truth, there was only one Christian and he died on the cross.” Neitzsche
Even the great Neitzsche agrees with me. Roy Moore is a fake.
6
Which and whose god are you referring to?
Old Testament? New Testament? Catholic? Orthodox? Protestant? Sunni Muslim? Shia Muslim? Hindu?Buddhist? Bahai? Sikh? Animist? Ancient Sumerian, Egyptian, Persian, Mayan, Aztec, Olmec, Inca, Greek or Roman? Shinto? Daoist? Mormon? 7th Day Adventist? Zoroastrian? Jain? Confucianism? Etc.?
Why would any omnipotent and omniscient god need to sue anyone, anywhere and at any time?
"God made man in his own image. And man returned the favor." George Bernard Shaw
8
We’ve known for a very long time that the south east bible belt has the highest divorce rate in the country, and the godless northeast the lowest. See www.census.gov .
So much for Moore’s “family values.”
It’s also been known for some time that Moore has made a *lot* of money from his antics. Hypocrisy pays well in Alabama.
9
What's up with the cowboy hat? Is Alabama in the old west? Maybe people down there just pine for the Gunsmoke series and Miss Kitty Russel? I would suggest to them that they watch MeTV.
Never trust a person that doesn't drink or claims to speak for God.
5
Excellent column! Likely no mirrors in Moore's house?
5
Why are there no comments? Child molestation is not to be condoned.
2
“Jim Ziegler, defended Moore as “clean as a hound’s tooth” and offered a bizarre defense of child abuse: He asserted that the Virgin Mary was a teenager when Joseph married her (in fact, the Bible does not indicate her age), adding: “They became parents of Jesus.”” Ziegler is apparently unaware that God was Jesus’s father. Mary was a virgin, after all.
2
BTW if hypocricy is the theme of this article than the assassination of Mahatma Gandhi and new unpublished knowledge about who was really behind it would give God something to wince about.
How does one validate these accusations?
“Those who moralize most, sin most.”
Hmmm Kristof perhaps you should think about that one. What is in your past?
Strange...........I would think that, after 40 years, the subject would have learned something. Such as how to be a "grown-up"....... If nothing else, the Senate of the United States should not permit him to be a member. Ever........it is already a haven for strange people.........
11
This is just incredible that Alabama is about to send the most heinous anti-Constitutional individual to the US Senate--a deliberative body--instead of a man who prosecuted the murderers of children at a CHURCH, of all places.
I just can't wrap my brain around what has become of the right wing in America.
We as a nation are doomed. I guess we would have been better off if the South had won the Civil War and just made their own little racist, misogynist, anti-education, backward country.
33
I guess the Immaculate Conception wasn’t that immaculate after all. So called followers of Christ can pick and choose passages from the good book to fit whatever issue is before them. Kinda like right wing conservative media when it comes to todays political conversation. Cherry pick what fits.
15
It might work out well if Alabama elects Roy Moore. He will be like an anchor tied around the necks of Republican Senators. It will be very entertaining to watch them tap dance every time Senator Moore opens his mouth. The down side is that the world will continue to laugh at what our county has become.
15
Can we quit hugging evangelicals now that they support child molestors?
25
Alabama is a different world: they believe 14 is a marriageable age, and they don't believe in the Constitution, federal law, or the United States of America.
22
A grown man in a cowboy hat in front of massive flag pointing his finger in anger?
Textbook demagogue.
27
" if Jesus saves, then He better save Himself, from the gory, glory seekers, who
use His name in death"....Ian Anderson
Truer words were never spoken. The evangelical movement that spawned the likes of Roy Moore, and so many others like him, has always been the epitome of hypocrisy. A cult of homophobic, misanthropic haters, it stands to reason why Moore would be one of their more venerated representatives.
But , we know their self righteous behavior represents more of a reaction formation to their real feelings of inferiority and generalized hopelessness due to their individual failures at the game of life. Christ would have tried to "accept" them as the fragile beings they are. But more than likely, He too, would have fallen victim to their animosity.
God won't have to sue Roy Moore for bastardizing HIS name. God is more likely to let Roy Moore undue himself over time, simply by being Roy Moore.
8
Religion is the biggest con of all. The bible is a work of fiction that has caused more problems than it has solved. Even without this latest revelation Moore was a nutcase. If the accusations are true he is now a nutcase that also breaks the law. Regardless, he should not be an electable candidate and just maybe he should spend some time in prison.
20
Moore is the kind of moral giant who would have cried, "Crucify him!" when Jesus was before Pilate. Why? Because he befriended publicans (hated tax collectors - agents of the occupying Romans) and sinners (women ensnared in prostitution). I am embarrassed for my Alabama cousins who must endure the stain of intolerance imputed to all Alabamians because of Moore and the Republican Party supporting him.
12
Roy Moore is symptomatic of the win at all costs that exists in American politics today. If the allegations are true he's not fit some Republican US senators have commented. There are already attempts to follow the familiar pattern of attack the victim. He's already vehemently denying the allegations. The Republican party in the state of Alabama and at the national level have reached a moral dilemma. Do you support a pedophile for public office like you supported an admitted abuser of women for the highest office. Or do you do the right thing and say this behavior is unacceptable.
10
Drain the swamp indeed...lets start with Trump and Moore.
13
The Bible also says Joseph was shocked to learn his betrothed wife was pregnant, so if you take the Bible literally, as Roy Moore and his supporters claim to, Joseph was not the father of Jesus. You can't have it both ways, fellas.
7
It was not only the "blowhard televangelists" who railed about AIDS but also (in Trump fashion) the GOP. Randy Shilts documented how the Reagan people played funding games with people's lives as homosexuals, women, and children died by the thousands.
Horrors should never be forgotten---- or forgiven by any God.
10
In Alabama, that 14-year-old girl was probably already a widow with two kids. Besides, ain't no Commandment against statutory rape or any kind of rape. And that's just one reason why I think fundamentalist and/or evangelical Christians should have to pass an annual mental health exam, while the rest of us need to stop enabling them.
6
So "Judge" Roy Moore walked down the (literal) darkling road and took the detour under the (figurative) shady tree in, what, 1979? One might ask how many times he made that trip before he became an assistant prosecutor. But no matter. He beat Donald Trump's self-revelations by a quarter of a century.
These folks who claim to be "Christians," the evangelical bloc, are nothing more than the literal and figurative fig leaves that (they think) conceal the lust in the loins that they deny. The crowd and swarm their "churches" on Sunday morning, the hour, as Martin Luther King once said, is "the most segregated hour of the week."
I wonder if the "judge" ever read Matthew, Chapter 18, verse 6: "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."
Or verse 7: "Woe unto the world because of offenses! for it must needs be that offense come; but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh!"
Or Luke, Chapter 17, verse 2: "It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones."
"Judge Moore of Alabama, that divinely "Christian" jewel of the Bible Belt, hasn't done a lot of Bible reading, and if he has, his memory is quite short. Like most Christian hypocrites, they scour the Bible for justifications for their evil acts.
Pass the salt, brother. Right, Judge?
8
Oh, Nicholas, if only wishing could make it so.
Unfortunately, this all happened in the real world, a strange, forbidding environment for Leftists ranting for a living. This man remembers thirty years ago when he met these females, and he even remembers their parents. NOTHING wrong happened.
Just because vile Times-ers can throw words at their political enemies doesn't change reality. I tell you what - their parents need to be heard from. While panicky ingenues such as Anita Hill et cie can be talked into jettisoning all credibility to grab a piece of fame and fortune, these girls' parents are actual grown-ups.
Let's hear from them. Until then, this man will make a fine Senator, FAR less damaging to the USA than Chuckie Schumer, the errand boy of Wall Street banksters.
1
If a fire-and-brimstone politician
or minister jumps up on the bed to proselytize,
check for an abused woman or child
hiding under it.
8
Wow: that Rev. Eric Elnes seems like a great guy (in the next to last paragraph's quote).
5
When when it comes to Southern white Christian conservatives, the slaves sang it best - everybody talking about heaven ain't going there. We need to start a legal defense fund for Sweet Jesus.
8
So many bizarre angles:
1. 'A second friend, who spoke on the condition of anonymity for fear of losing her job, has a similar memory' …….WHY is this person afraid of losing their job?? Does Moore have some sort of cult following? This is like the stoning of women in Iran for reporting being raped!
2. 'Local Republican asserts Virgin Mary was a teenager when Joseph married her so Moore’s actions OK'…. wait, I thought this was a frame up, not a salute to Christianity
3. The wisest comment: Elnes added: “I’ve never understood why certain Christians are so eager to turn the United States into a Christian country when their time would be so much better spent turning their churches (and membership) into Christian churches.”.
5
Mr Kristof, most of the posters on this board, and practically anyone on the NYT should be more cautious about referencing God. God might start paying attention to what you are doing the rest of the time.
I have been around long enough to not be surprised if the voters of the great state of Alabama choose to put Moore in the Senate, ignoring a background that reeks of hypocrisy and child abuse. Such is the state of tribal hatred in this country and the deterioration of our moral core: better the Devil than a Democrat.
8
It seems all to often these phony religious men eventually come out of the closet and show their true selves. I hope Roy Moore goes down, but I don't have much faith in the Republican Party. Didn't the politician who beat up the the journalist get elected.
We elected an sexual abuser to be our President. Where have all the morals gone?
13
The self righteous always seem to shoot themselves in the foot in the end,they are so busy believing their own bluster.it seems everyone wants to hide behind religion and patriotism these days.
6
Forget defending Evangelicals. They supported Trump, and they support Roy Moore. They are fine with pedophilia, sexual assault, bigotry against minorities, Muslims, LGBT, Hispanics and women.
Evangelicals consistently support the cruelest policies against the most vulnerable -- those that would hurt the sick, children, the disabled, the elderly, and students.
There is something sick at the core with many of these Republican Evangelicals. They would be equally happy to burn witches, lynch a black man, jail an opponent, and support sexual predators who harm children or gunment who massacre children in a classroom.
Separate church and state again. There is a reason the founding fathers kept America secular with no state religion or preferred religion. These Evangelicals are worse than the Inquisition.
Sickening and deplorable group. Whatever their current title, they have zero to do with actual Christianity.
12
Come on, Nicholas, "Christians" can justify ANYTHING using their bible.
3
Those of us who are still sane who reside in Alabama feel vindicated in our suspicions that something is terribly wrong with Roy Moore that causes him to think and behave in an abnormal, anti-social, manner. Now we know a part of what is wrong with him.
Let's hope that his other victims find the strength to speak out. And there are more, because pedophiles never stop with just one victim.
6
The churches of the Moore supporters are indeed not Christian churches, they are Roman churches and they worship the emperor.
5
"Christianity might be a good thing if anyone ever tried it."
George Bernard Shaw
4
Very few dogs have clean teeth... my dog's are disgusting and so is Roy Moore.
2
Guilty until proven innocent, the "progressive" way.
God knows what he did.
2
Moore is just one more cartoon act in the Pharisee Follies, offering up condemnation aplenty for the predatory vanity of the self-righteous. One hardly requires revelations of Moore sexually soliciting teenage girls to recognize the perversity that drives the man. That was apparent from the start.
2
How tough could it be to find out where Moore lived in 1979? If the house is as its described by these women, away from town, etc., would THAT get Mitch and the gang to robustly denounce this hypocritical gas bag?
4
Funny thing, though, that the conservative Christians like Moore never seem to quote those parts of the Bible where Jesus talks about feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, caring for the sick, and loving your neighbor as yourself. Oh, or the one about driving the hypocrites and money changers from God's house.
7
Why do so many people say that they accept Jesus Christ but ignore his teachings?
2
On the other hand.... maybe 9/11 was God's response for us allowing bible thumping hypocrites a political platform and not more stringently enforcing the separation between church and state.
3
We make God in our own image. Why else would he be an old white guy? Jesus is portrayed as a Ethnically European, overtly Caucasian. Interesting for a person born in the Middle East.
So now the right needs a God who will condone child molestation, will miracles never cease? Joseph, a blue collar carpenter was much older then his teen bride Mary, I would imagine they would also argue that Joseph didn't belong to a Union and opposed big government and over taxation from Rome.
This is entirely understandable the right is "on a mission from God." They need good conservative senators to do the Lords work:
Take health care away from 28 m Americans
Foul up the planet with more carbon pollution et. all
Make the wealthy even wealthier.
The GOP is a morally rudderless party.
they violated all constitutional precedent to get a conservative justice, amen
Chose a thrice married adulterer as president
turned the other cheek to his lies violation of the Emoluments clause, ignore his ties to Russia etc.
Do you think the trump hotels would let a refugee family from Nazareth Palestine with a pregnant teen wife stay in the parking garage of the properties?
4
This guy is a pervert and anyone who is an apologist for his actions condones older men preying on young schoolgirls as okay behavior. I've read some bizarre comments from his supporters such as the biblical ref to a teenage Mary and an older Joseph and the female school principal (who should be fired) for stating "it was a long time ago" Perhaps this is all normal behavior in Alabama?
I wouldn't let them within a hundred miles of my Daughter.
4
George H.W. Bush wasn't so "moral." As soon as he started to make Clinton's womanizing an issue during the presidential campaign, Time magazine felt free to report that Poppy had been cheating on Barbara for years. The First Lady expressed her anger about it to the magazine's reporters. She was especially incensed that Bush had his mistress, Jennifer Fitzgerald, working on his staff when he was ambassador to China. Suddenly the "Clinton is immoral" line of attack stopped.
Women recently have started coming forward accusing the elderly Bush of creepily grabbing their butts from his wheelchair.
He's a pig. Not as bad as Trump, but no choirboy.
3
It appears Mr. Kristof only finds it "infuriating" because he's been sucker-punched (again) by his all too apologetic stance on the continuing hypocrisy of the Conservative Evangelical Christian. Take the blinders off and see what the rest of us do; opportunists.
1
I think it's important to note here that Jim Ziegler, who is trying to excuse Moore's deplorable (to say the least) behavior by citing examples from the Bible, is a state official. These people are paid using tax payer dollars to understand and uphold the law, not the Bible. Last time I checked, sexually assaulting a 14 year old girl is illegal. Learn to do your job, fellas.
2
Accusations are not proof!
Did Soros pay for these allegations?
There should be a statute of limitations! So-ca,,ed victims should make accusations when it happens----not years later!
"She said". Is no evidence!
"Deep within the heart of every evangelist lies the wreck of a car salesman."
--- H.L. Mencken
6
Roy Moore should be indicted, arrested, tried, and jailed, for his clear violations of Alabama State Law, not to mention violations of his beloved Ten Commandments which say, "Thou shalt not commit adultery."
1
The deep South is giving us some of that old time religion, Jimmy Swaggert style. Love listening to that syrupy drawl of moral superiority coming from some of the life long members of the hypocrite society. Make no mistake Roy Moore will easily win the election in Alabama to the joy of Evangelical congregations. Jesus wept.
5
I have to say, this is one of the few times I agree with the NYT - I'm a Christian, and am embarrassed by what this guy claims is Christianity. He's one of the reasons Christianity gets a bad name.... and why Christians get attacked by Liberals. Don't go by what this guy claims is in the Bible... read it yourself... there's plenty of people out there who twist the truth for their own gain...
2
Isn't it time to separate religion from politics, yet?
4
Nicholas Kristof may speak for the publisher but he does not speak for God according to any known creed. A Divine Creator of all that is known and unknown, having extraordinary powers beyond human conception, would not have to sue anyone, whether it’s Nicholas Kristof, the Times editorial board, or Roy Moore. It seems arrogant, fatuous, and risky, therefore, to plead for Divine wrath instead of mercy on a political adversary. You might be inviting the same wrath on yourself.
Mr. Moore's sins weren't all that original.
1
Conservative Evangelical Christian's screech about Christianity (Religion) being under attack; they do have a point. It is under attack- from within like flesh-eating bacteria. No outside force could ever damage Christianity as much as those who sit in their respective church pews.
The sickening hypocrisy is enough to make me want to hang a talisman and rabbit's foot on my front door.
4
All I have to say is,.. Good people had best stick together, or rabid, bible thumping fundamentalists will be sticking it to you and your children.
The United States of America is not a religion. It is a place where there is freedom of, and From, religion.
Your choice! Not Moore's, Not the republicans. Not Anyone's !
7
Invoking Mary, Joseph and Jesus to defend child molestation is an unbelievable defense. Roy Moore - the victim, the martyar - is a hypocritical Christian, holier than thou. Lord save us from the sinner....
46
These people are dug in so deep that if Jesus himself were to appear in front of them- they would immediately think he was demonic spirit sent by the liberals to taunt them. With the exception of a Walmart ad, they don't believe in anything outside their oxygen starved bubble.
39
Roy Moore uses religion as a cover up. Harvey Weinstein and Kevin Spacey use rehab as a cover up. And Trump said his sexist remarks were just "locker room talk." Moore doesn't believe in the Bible. He uses it to justify and camouflage his pedophilia. It's the same as some priests using the mantle of catholic church to prey on young men. They are all not only abusers of the truth but also sexual abusers. By staying silent many Republicans are enablers. Moore is a very sick man right up there with Hastert, another Republican.
45
Thank you. There should be some part of Christ in Christianity. I don't recognize it in people who are fine with lies, sexual assault, and pedophilia as long as it is done by a Republican.
35
I'm not a Moore fan, but for all those gathering wood to stack around where he is tied to a stake and are eager to pour some oil on the wood and then light the match --- where is the evidence? All we have are accusations from 38 years ago. No proof, no way of getting proof, and no way for Moore to prove himself innocent. That isn't the way our system is supposed to work. What you folks are doing is called vigilantism. Just hope you aren't ever accused of something publicly with no way of defending yourself and half the country ready to burn you at the stake because you are 1) white, 2) male 3) religious.
17
The Sunday following the self revelation from Trump that he could get away with grabbing women's --------, I had a conversation with another parishioner. He defended trump because it had happened eleven years before. I stopped believing that the man had ever heard anything said in church or had ever read anything the Bible had to say. The man attends church every week, sitting there listening to himself and his diseased thoughts. Then he goes home full of his hate and defense of the indefensible. My church is a place of acceptance, a place where anyone can walk in and learn what a real Christian believes. Roy Moore, like the man who thinks whatever trump does is OK, is not a Christian. Both are guided by something else, something evil.
24
Even for a microsecond, if we do take the biblical defense of Moore, he didn't marry the minors, did he now?
14
I'm comforted that these Bible thumping pedophile defenders like Jim Zeigler (an auditor as well!), will never show the hypocrisy of forgetting their "Biblical defenses" when it comes to history in other religions or practices in parts of the world that apparently share Alabama's God fearing acceptance of the beauty of sexual experience, regardless of the age of participants (okay, well at least regardless of age of one of the participants - the other can be a grandfather, doesn't seem to matter). Kind of reminds one of the "man boy love association" once profiled on "60 Minutes." Who knows, maybe Zeigler is a card carrying member. As turned out to be the case with Moore, let's wait and see what else Zeigler has to share with us.
4
You name Harvey Weinstein to make your point "Hypocrites are on the left and right." Well, in case you didn't notice Harvey Weinstein isnt running for senate. Clearly, hypocrisy is more of a problem of the right in my opinion.
21
I agree with Kristof almost never but:
Jim Ziegler, the Alabama state auditor, use of a biblical defense sets a new high on the "moron bar" which, given that we're talking about politicians, is quite an accomplishment.
Now, for the skepticism.
Moore has been in the public eye and running in elections since 1982. The accusers could have brought the 39-year old allegations of sexual misconduct against Moore to the public's attention for the past 35 years. They could have spoken when Moore ran for Chief Justice, or governor, or governor again, or the Republican Senate primary.
Yet, all this time, the accusers said nothing and the "revelations" didn't appear until one month before the December Senate election.
Maybe this is simply an example of delayed justice and, if that's the case, Moore should go down in history as another hypocrite bible thumper.
On the other hand, maybe this is an example of political dirty tricks. Not that the Democrats would every engage in such an unsavory activity -- right?
Given the two choices, and until a clear smoking gun is produced, I believe this is dirty Democrat politics.
The last two paragraphs in this column are the most succinct condemnation of the false piety and phony sanctimony that pervades the religious right that I think I have ever read. Thank you.
21
Roy's supporters are breathing a sigh of relief that the accusers are female...
22
This country will never find its moral compass until a majority of women begin holding seats in government. Women with their ability to bear children possess a super power that men will never ever understand. That’s not to say women are perfect. In fact they are far from it. We all are imperfect beings. But the ability to conceive and bear children from inside their own bodies puts women at a plateau that we as men will simply never attain. If there is any doubt please look no further than the Catholic Church. How many stories can you recall of nuns molesting little girls. I can’t think of a single one.
8
So many Christian fundamentalists complain that the liberal left “does not allow” them to bring their religion into the public sphere. I also think this is a mistake. By all means, let’s see what novel theology they have come up with, now that we have established that the Scripture condones pedophilia. Of course, many evangelicals would vehemently deny that Mr. Ziegler speaks for them. But what about much more mainstream tenets of their belief, such as justification by faith? Without getting too deeply into theology, I highly recommend the novel “Confessions of a Justified Sinner” by James Hogg, whose protagonist, believing himself to be one of the Elect, commits murder and fratricide. Before you get enraged about such liberal slander, let me add that the novel was written in 1823 by a Protestant Scotsman. Religious beliefs matter, and they have to be as much opened to critique and discussion as political ideologies. Otherwise evangelicals want to have their cake and to eat it: impose their twisted worldview upon others, and yet be immune from any challenge in the name of “respect”.
8
I've got a feeling that God is going to do more that sue Roy Moore.
Much more.
14
2 Timothy 3:1-5 ESV:
But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.
These people now have a name: Republicans.
30
I think you should point out that "evangelicals" are the only branch of Christianity that get into messes like this. Other branches teach their believers to read their Bible before they "quote" it.. "Joseph married her [Mary] and they became parents of Jesus.” says one, trying to create a phony parallel to protect Moore. Wierd.
7
When oh when will people open up their eyes and understand that any religion that is full of 'fervor'...that urges you to 'indoctrinate' others...that points to certain other people as 'sinners'...that these are all warning signs that these religious bodies are self-serving and all about brainwashing?
I am sick to death of religion as a whole, holding itself up as some type of example of all that is 'good', while anyone who does not agree with them is 'bad', or 'needs to be saved' from eternal damnation.
Religion is for the weak of mind. Religion does not allow you to think for yourself. Religion hates to be questioned or 'challenged'. You are simply supposed to fall in line with a smile on your face, saying that everything is 'wonderful', that god will take care of everything (when clearly he/she/it is not able to stop bad in the world), and don't ever question anything your religion purports to be the truth per some stupid 'holy book'.
Just like politics in many ways, most of religion is about crowd psychology and peer pressure, and 'shaming' those who are outliers or else outright shunning them/banishing them.
22
Perhaps the defendants of child molestation do not consider the actions of a pedophile to be objectionable or criminal, because it is not listed in the ten commandment. But I direct them to the words of Jesus when referring to improper interactions with children, woe unto anyone who offends the least of my little ones it would be better that he he have a millstone hung around his neck and he be cast into the depths of the sea, Matthew 18:6. For Jesus they should get the death penalty.
6
Hypocrisy is absolutely fatal to Evangelical conservatives in a unique way because they very loudly judge secularists and liberals as being morally bankrupt. They assert that their decisions and policies are the result of divine guidance and deeply held beliefs... but look at where their beliefs have led them. Any believer pointing at the Trump administration or Moore as allies or protectors of Christian values makes a mockery of their own faith.
Evangelicals, as the very name implies, profess to be primarily concerned with "winning" SOULS. In the year 2017, they have settled for political victories instead. Having apparently lost faith in the power of the gospel to convert non-believers, they have instead put their hope in thuggish coercion. If people will not WILLINGLY live by biblical principles, too many conservatives seem ready to FORCE them to do so. The cheer a Justice Department that tells employers it's acceptable to fire gay employees simply for BEING gay. They cheer as the President indicates a willingness to rescue Christians, but not Muslims from war zones. In Trump's America the poorest and most vulnerable amongst us are despised almost as matter of policy; every benefit (including healthcare subsidies) afforded to them is under attack. This is all not to MENTION that Christian evangelicals now cheer the exact same rhetoric as the KKK, Neo-nazis and Confederates.
The new gospel of #MAGA is not compelling to those they would win over.
16
This has nothing to do with God, Jesus, Mary and Joseph. It is simple.
For women accuse Moore, and dozens of other people confirm their reports.
Moore denies everything.
One side is telling the truth, another side is lying. There will be no video, DNA evidence or court case.
Either you believe Moore's accusers, or you squeeze your eyes shut, hold your nose and pretend not to believe them.. But if you chose the later, here is the question you should ask yourself: "what am I doing this FOR?"
12
Thank you, Nicholas Kristof, for your sensitive thought-provoking commentary. Let us hope the people of Alabama repudiate the hypocritical Roy Moore at the polls. Moore’s defeat might as a by-product curtail Steve Bannon, the powerful perpetrator of hatred.
10
This doesn’t surprise me. Anyone this open and vociferous about his religiousity is obviously repenting against his bad deeds. I really wonder what is hiding in his closet that hasn’t yet come to light.
9
Well, you lionized Ben Carson, too. Your support of evangelicals as a group has always troubled me. Just because you tout a belief in God doesn't make you a good person. I have always found that extreme self-righteousness hides an evil soul.
9
Regarding the (truly bizarre) comments of Jim Ziegler, someone on Twitter pointed out that, according to the Bible, Joseph was not a "parent" of Jesus, as there was an immaculate conception. Mary remained a virgin.
3
The Confederacy WON the Civil War. They moved the battle into the Churches. Seriously.
5
Religion has always been the prime vehicle of the worst of hypocrites, starting long before Jesus' day and continuing to grow in vehemence and brazen, two-faced prevarication right up to this weekend and beyond.
Aimee Semple McPherson, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Bakker, Pastor Ted, Roy Moore--and hundreds of others throughout history--along with the army of anti-moral, anti-American, anti-human boot-lickers lining up to support them have shamelessly used religion and the sad, confused, uneducated losers so easily duped by it to gather wealth and power around themselves for many centuries.
Even this particularly despicable cartoon of depravity will be surpassed in evil by some future Pharisee of the extreme right, pompously, self-righteously playing on the fear and ignorance of their slack-jawed flock to enrich themselves at the expense of the most vulnerable among us.
Religion is for those who simply cannot face life on its own terms, and therefore must invent their own insular world to keep reality at bay. If "God" is so omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent; if "He" truly created everything that ever was or ever will be; if the Bible is truly "His Word", please explain why he needed humans to write it all down, the Council of Nicaea to separate the gospel wheat from chaff and arrange it into the current compendium of wishful thinking and superstition, and the Catholic church to play the role of spiritual enforcer for all these years.
Yeah, that's what I thought.
4
Maybe that's why Judge Moore was so adamant in wanting the 10 Commandments displayed in big stone pillars outside the court houses in Alabama: they provided great cover when ogling the minors that passed by.
8
If the Dems could pick up a senate seat in Alabama next month, then we will know there really are miracles in our time.
7
What liberals in this country fail to understand is that when a Democrat is accused of sexual misconduct, the Democrat is guilty. When a Republican is accused, the Republican is innocent -- the victim of politically motivated fake news. Evangelical logic.
9
Better: get Jesus. Jesus never misses - and the issue would be resolved.
While never so presumptive to be an atheist or agnostic ("far be it from me to say . . . "), it is rational to state that religion(s) ~ plural ~ are the roots of all evil.
Case in point: Judge Moore.
4
Sue? God should privately inform Moore-is-Less that unless he ceases the defilement of His Word, he will sooner rather than later find himself on a one-way trip to a very warm clime.
4
People of faith, repeat the last sentence until it has penetrated: "If you find yourself excusing child molestation, then you are driven not by morality or faith, but simply by the emptiest form of tribalism."
In my opinion what Moore is accused of, while disqualifying, is less damning than the various vile acts that Donald Trump claims to have more than once committed. For example, among the beauty pageants where he brags he went into dressing rooms when women had no clothes on was Miss Teen USA. It had contestants as young as the girls Mr. Moore was accused of inappropriate and illegal behavior with. And of course women have made additional accusations against Trump.
10
The problem with "evangelical" Christians is that they want to force me to live my life according to their rules.
5
Unfortunately the bible is more for Roy Moore than against him. It is quite happy with teenage girls being married or being concubines; and is quite OK with teenagers and children being killed.
3
I read the account in the Washington Post. Fact-based and shocking. This is not fake news.
Roy Moore compounds his despicable behavior by denying the crime and victimizing these women all over again. Given the heated atmosphere and high stakes you have to wonder if Leigh Corfman doesn't face some level of physical danger from Republicans who are urging that she and the other women "be prosecuted" and chatter on about the "lack of judgement" in 14 year-olds as if the then-child was the molester of a man 18 years her senior. If anybody was wondering why it took her so long to come forward about the Judge and his desire to have sex with young girls - that should be crystal clear now.
The deeper this goes the sicker it gets. Is it really that wacky down there in Alabama? Seems so.
These folks respond to the crisis of having an alleged pedophile on the ticket by claiming a conspiracy on the part of the Democratic Party without providing anything more than hot air. Who? What? Where? When? Nothing. It is they who would seem to be the serious purveyors of fake news. Can't they see that?
Just when we needed Sean Hannity to ask the tough questions he seems to be rather silent. Wow.
How is it that these very unChristian Evangelical hypocrites can stand to be around themselves without violent retching? Their disgusting behavior is a total insult to the religion they profess.
8
Deborah Wesson Gibson, one of Roy Moore’s accusers, is a member of Progressive Politics Alabama and is someone who worked on the political campaigns of both 2016 Democrat presidential nominee Hillary Clinton and former Obama regime Vice President Joe Biden, providing sign language services.
My question is if this did indeed happen why did she wait until just now to make this claim?
Jim Ziegler is exactly what is wrong with the fundamentalists (of any faith). Zealots skating on thin ice, who know best, but do whatever they want. The mistreatment of children, women, all minority groups, in god's name, is exactly the reason that sane and intelligent people leave their churches as soon as they do. I don't believe that god will smote a single one of these southern "gentlemen", which must be the proof that their god does not exist.
5
Alabama Republican Ed Henry called for the victims to be prosecuted for waiting so long to accuse Moore. (He didn't say what crime they committed.) How far is this victim-blaming from honor killings carried out against rape victims in the Middle East? Not as far as these hypocrites think. Yet they claim to be Christian and moral. They are deluded.
8
Roy, maybe all of these past transgressions are the reason for your "Ten Commandment" diversions!
Is this a sinner do right?
W
2
Jim Ziegler does realize the Virgin Mary was a virgin, right? The angel Gabriel didn't say "Greetings, you who are highly favored. Please take off your clothes." That's not how the Bible passage goes.
Personally, I am one hundred percent guilty of mocking evangelicals. I believe they deserve to be mocked. The reasoning is more "Christian" than you might think though. I read an article once entitled "Eating Christmas in the Kalahari" by Richard B. Lee. The basic moral of the story: Making fun of people who take themselves too seriously helps remind the self-righteous of their own humility. You don't need to express hatred or malignancy in order to take someone down a notch. Most of the time, the joke is for their own good.
http://people.morrisville.edu/~reymers/readings/ANTH101/EatingChristmas-...
4
"Roy Moore today is a challenge for those who see themselves as good and decent people of faith: If you find yourself excusing child molestation, then you are driven not by morality or faith, but simply by the emptiest kind of tribalism."
Hear, hear. That's a challenge to all people of good will, whatever their political persuasion.
3
Mr. Ziegler offers his Mary-and-Joseph analogy that denies a fundamental tenet of christianity--the virgin birth. It implies that Joseph and Mary "got it on" in the way that women normally get pregnant. I get it: Throw anything and everything overboard in order to defend Roy Moore.
Along comes Mr. Henry, who wants to prosecute the accusers without any idea about what crime that they may have committed.
Alabama, you can do so much better.
4
Silly you. Silly you for thinking this matters. It's 100% about making all abortion illegal again. It's about packing the courts with right wing judges who'll be voting their (alleged) morals on the rest of us for the next four decades. Nothing else matters. Absolutely nothing else. (I'll give you my siblings' email addresses if you want to talk to a bunch of supporters of these kinds of politicians.)
And they are succeeding. The damage they're doing today can't possibly be undone before I am dead. Long dead.
10
The only reason these women did not make a difference before is because no one would listen, take them seriously or do anything against Roy Moore. I am a rape survivor and I know that getting anyone to take you seriously is hard. Once Roy Moore decided to leave the protection of the Gods of Alabama, and seek national office, the rules changed. Finally, someone is listening to these women. Sadly, it is the rest of America except Alabama, where apparently child rape is okay.
8
These people support Moore and in particular this episode in part because they fundamentally agree with his actions. Think about that. I suggest that a significant portion of his supporters think that this child molestation is just a harmless prank or a natural occurrence or... fill in an innocuous excuse yourself. Same with Trump and the "Billy Bush" tape. Just locker room talk... They chose to believe it because it hits too close to home.
4
Moore is the sickness of the Republican Party personified.
5
And how many more... just like him are lurking around our prestigious institutions? I think God has other plans for them.
3
Somehow, I just don't believe Moore's detailed, document time, place and manner acts are the answer to the question, "What Would Jesus Do?
4
Stephen Colbert had a good take on the "religious" aspect of this...wasn't Mary a Virgin? Doesn't that imply that no' hanky panky' took place between Mary and Joseph to beget Jesus? I might be reading the bible to literally, but this is what I was taught to believe, and I don't remember my Sunday school teachers winking while talking about this. Maybe the folks quoting the bible need to revisit its verse. No 32 year old man should be thinking about a 14 year old girl, and certainly not, removing her clothes, touching her. A respondent to this commented on the power that Roy Moore had. This is the dynamic we are seeing with all sexual harassment that is coming to light.
(and that many of us witnessed over the past years). There is always power within the relationship and how the weaker party has no where to go. That needs to change.....
3
Trump is decking his cabinet with criminals and corrupted low lives. These folks zero moral integrity. Appalling.
4
Good grief -- where have you been and are you really that naive and blind?
Evangelical "Christians" have been hypocritically using the pick and choose method for centuries to make themselves feel better and hate other groups to make themselves more united. They are ready to support the anti-christ for whom they are supposedly waiting if it means squashing the groups they hate more that they love the scriptures and Jesus.
4
In true good ol’ boy tradition Judge Roy Moore tries to keep the truth in the back of the bus. He doesn’t realize that the good ol’ boy days are already behind him, fading beyond the horizon of the darkest days of the Republic, along with the stone-dead statues of the misbegotten slaveholders and their defeated master race delusions. Echoing F. Scott Fitzgerald’s tragedy on the futility of trying to recapture the past, Roy Moore “beats on, [a boat] against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past,” a past that every day is becoming more antagonistic and uninhabitable for him. The one biblical insight that could save him seems to be inaccessible to Moore and his misguided defenders: "The truth shall set you free."
27
If we are going to use Biblical models for sexual relationships, why stop with Mary and Joseph? Jacob had two wives, and two concubines, and had children with all four of them, who became the patriarchs of the 12 tribes of Israel. Maybe that was the view of marriage that Moore had in mind.
2
Jesus will not tolerate hypocrites. Speaking about the day of judgment,...( Matthew 7: 22-23) He said "On that day many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name? The I will declare to them " I never knew you, go away from me, you evil doers". Hypocrites will get their reward.
3
Alabama, the Bible Belt, whatever will never, never ever, in million years reach the heights of immorality that goes on daily in places like NY City and Hollywood.
Proof is Roman Polanski. Admitted child rapist. Convicted child rapist. Bail jumper.
Yet Polanski is APPLAUDED by Hollywood and OPENLY supported by big name celerities.
You can cherry pick and write a story like this all you want but America knows the truth. And thats why Trump brought a dozen Bill Clinton to the debate.
I'd emphasize: ONE of the few:
"...evangelical Christians...are one of the few groups that it’s socially acceptable for liberals to mock, stereotype and discriminate against..."
I remember attending a fundraiser at my kids' school (in SF, pretty much all liberal parents), at which a comedian told a long joke about someone who lived in Los Angeles and wanted to get away from the crime and chaos of the city, to spend the weekend where it was safe. He drove his car up a mountain north of LA to some resort, planning to spend a quiet weekend there. A parking lot attendant at the resort approached him as he pulled in to the parking lot. He glanced at the attendant's name tag: It read "Mohammed."
That was the punch line. It brought down the house. Apparently it was OK -- at least then (2002) and there, and I doubt it has changed in SF -- to "mock, stereotype and discriminate against" Muslims. Trump often is criticized for that, but my personal experience shows he's not alone.
1
G-d, one hopes, will forego the pleasure of suing Roy Moore in favor of letting the Devil deal with him. Ditto for the Conservative Christian apologists for his crimes.
4
A political bible thumper a sanctimonious hypocrite. Aren't they all? More fool anyone who ever believed him - and the rest of his ilk. This is but the tip of the iceberg. Such men reside everywhere in protected positions of trust throughout this land.
3
I fear that Moore and his defenders have a warped view of a woman’s role in society - they limit a woman’s right to choose, oppose abortion for invest and rape, tell women to cross their legs to deter unwanted advances. It should be noted that Moore’s behavior was defended not questioned. How many other pedophiles are stalking the halls of power?
4
"I never see it yet to fail, I never see it fail.
A woman who's in love with a virtuous man
is doomed to weep and wail.
Stonecutters cut on stone, woodpeckers peck it on wood.
There's nothing so bad for a woman as...
a man who thinks he's good."
--- Carousel
2
"If you find yourself excusing child molestation, then you are driven not by morality or faith, but simply by the emptiest kind of tribalism."
So true but I'm sure there are plenty of republicans in Alabama and the country who consider a pedophile to be the lesser of two evils if the other option is a democrat, even if the democrat was Jesus.
When was the last time a "family values" guy was accused of something rather immoral and it turned out not to be true? You really do have to give kudos to Kevin Spacey and Louis C.K. for just admitting up front the allegations were true instead of like all the others who deny, deny and lie.
2
"He asserted that the Virgin Mary was a teenager when Joseph married her (in fact, the Bible does not indicate her age), adding: “They became parents of Jesus.”"
And here I always thought Christians believed that Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit, NOT Joseph.
3
There is NO justification for child molestation. To cite the Bible as a defense
for this perversion is an affront to Christians everywhere. Democrats won in
Virginia, and we will continue to win, until we make America sane again!
l
5
Wish I could understand what Republicans are thinking. Are they not worried they'll lose the loyalty of women and concerned adults, who couldn't imagine their child being molested by this man? This man will leave a stain for a long time to come, which will only help elect Democrats. Steve Bannon and Trump are tone deaf to the needs of real women.
3
Well said Paster Elnes!
“I’ve never understood why certain Christians are so eager to turn the United States into a Christian country when their time would be so much better spent turning their churches into Christian churches.”
2
What would Jesus do?
Well, according to the book that right wing so called Christians quote like it was Scripture, we know what Jesus did:
He healed the sick.
He fed the hungry.
He visited the prisoner.
He clothed the naked.
He tended the poor.
He threw the bankers and merchants out of the temple.
He forgave those who tortured and murdered him.
He did all that with love and compassion, not with self-righteous judgement.
He did exactly the opposite of what these so called Christians in the republican party are doing.
7
“The louder he talked of his honor, the faster we counted our spoons.” - Ralph Waldo Emerson
7
50 years ago Moore's views were mainstream. So are today's moderates tomorrow's troglodytes? Or does every society inevitably become decadent?
1
Poster toddler for the baby soul.
http://personalityspirituality.net/articles/the-michael-teachings/reinca...
2
"Religious Right" I can agree with as a title, but can we please drop the "Christian" part. It is not like a lot of repentance is going on.
1
Isn't more part of some moral charity and claimed he didn't get paid?
Turns out he got a million dollars.
Even before this sex scandal, this alone should have sent him packing.
2
Why is it that “conservative” religious types view women as possessions (and therefore must be subservient to men) rather than equals? I view this as more than a character flaw but a fatal flaw. Congratulations to the Republican Party for continuing to support Roy Moore as it shows your true colors and now we all know exactly who you are.
3
The evangelicals helped elect an unethical, President Trump.
What is it with some politicians, who claim to be christians, yet don't follow the example of Christ?
I don't know if the claims against Roy Moore aretrue, but to hear the
An abuser is an abuser so in that capacity you can use Moore and Weinstein in the same article. However I'm so tired of those men who make public policy that adversely affect women being able to shrug it off. As I recall Spacey, Weinstein, and Louis C.K admitted their behavior and are facing swift repercussions. Why is it that it so hard to believe women when it is a right wing man? Bill O'Reilly is still denying charges even after millions in payout. The GOP had no problem believing Paula Jones. Women are not treated fairly. Coming forward is an act of courage. Believe one, believe all.
1
Is Mr. Zeigler suggesting that Jesus Christ was not the son of GOD, but merely the son of Joseph? If so, there is no Christianity. I can live with that.
Great essay, thanks!
All in Alabama who continue to support Moore should ask themselves what they would do if they caught a 32 year old man with their 14 year old daughter or sister. I dare say they would want him prosecuted.
You are spot on, but you are not preaching to the choir. No doubt Mr. Moore's supporters could find a foundation in their faith to vote last year for a serial adulterer, liar and self avowed sexual predator. The mind boggles at that perversion of faith. Indeed, as you note, they are "...driven not by morality, or faith, but simply the emptiest kind of tribalism." Yes Mr. Kristof, those you seek to "convert" are the indigenous tribe of the close minded zealots. They give faith a bad name.
2
The Post story is only made more credible by the fact that he stopped short of actually raping these girls. There are others out there and I bet we will be learning more in the coming days.
1
"And, frankly, it’s just staggering to see “family values” conservatives making excuses for child molestation."
It's not "staggering" at all, Ross -- we have been witnessing such utter hypocrisy...well, forever. No surprise that it appears again in intensely political, tribal clothing. And, if I may say it, we have been pointing it out to you endlessly while you tend to look away from it and toward your idealized versions of religiosity.
1
According my grandfather, Any person that uses God in public places is most likely a rascal. Man he was right.!
2
We should not be so fast at condemning the hypocrisy of evangelicals but rather think at how much fake news they are fed with about this story. Gullibility of Americans grounded on honesty is a major problem and people like Moore exploit it for their abuses. Isn't it what he did with the mother of that 14 year old? how do we fight this? In his case, "once a pedophile always a pedophile" and hopefully more women will come up with their horror story about the guy and the truth will take him down.
1
Like taxes, the Ten Commandments are for the little people. It is all about power over the gullible believers. Once these grotesque individuals wrap themselves up in their religious dogma, they become untouchable and demand unquestioned loyalty as they essentially blaspheme in secret.
It goes to show their absolute and true contempt for their all powerful deity that they behave as though their perversions and abuses will not be noticed or will be ignored by their all seeing deity.
And yet Moore and his supporters continue to defile their religion by excusing - even justifying - his behavior with religious dogma. Christians defending anti-Christian behavior for political reasons? Do we want this perverted version of faux-Christianity to start passing laws on the rest of us?
Good point about the televangelists - hatevangelists - pretending to be pro-life while inflicting hatred to death of millions of AIDS victims. These are the same people who have gagged thousands of health workers around the world to impose their desire for overpopulation of destitute, starving and suffering babies and children. Indeed, they voted for a nonreligious person with the most callous disregard for life with his temper hovering over the God-like power of nuclear weapons and over our life and death.
"When Christians cite the Bible to defend child molestation" do we really want to give them carte blanche freedom of religion? Is that the freedom they crave?
2
Brilliant comments but I wonder about the ROOTS of this conflict – and there is an interesting Christian perspective. Misuse of human-animal power in sexual forays causing panic and anxiety remind me of archetypes of ancient psychology, the Greek god Pan, half man-half animal, son of Mercury, or Hermes, and Echo. Pan originated as a friend to shepherds and became a trickster who was fond of orgies and caves and caused panic to enemies. One archetypal message could be to aspire to the transcendent mind of father Mercury, superior to the animal ways of Pan, to chart one’s life (and avoid attendant emotions of anxiety and panic). However, Jesus Christ visited Caesarea Philippi, now Banias in Israel, where Pan, Mercury and Echo were worshipped. There is a cliff face carved with shrines, temples below, Pan’s cave and a “bottomless” grotto, then named the Gates of Hades, into which sacrifices were thrown. Jesus said to Peter that on this rock he would build his church, meaning the spirit of Christ (as opposed to the cliff shrines of Pan maybe) and the Gates of Hades would not prevail against it. Jesus then transcended himself in the transfiguration - maybe nearby on Mount Hermon - and is known as the bringer of Peace. Peace versus panic. Food for thought. In contemporary culture, mindfulness meditation is a route to think and focus beyond emotions and drives. It’s a big topic, but why not change the frame now that we have the opportunity to discuss the picture.
It is unfortunate that in my 68 years on this planet I have found that those who thump the Bible the most are usually using it to hide their own sins. I offer Mike Pence as another example (or Jimmy Swaggert or Jim Baker or...). I was raised Roman Catholic but no longer endorse that religion or any other just for this reason. I do believe in God and very much believe he is infuriated with all of you dragging his name through the mud!
Unfortunately, the anti-Christ Roy Moore or not, the theocracy is quickly gaining a stranglehold on American courts. The seat thief Gorsuch will be the last with at least a plausible education. After this, Trump will only nominate graduates of Oral Roberts, Liberty University, and the like. American women have not grasped what the theocracy intends. Be afraid.
1
The story of Joseph and Mary as written in the Bible is very clear on the fact that Joseph did NOT touch Mary. In fact, he knew her baby wasn't his and he was going to skip town, but then an angel visited him and said "God wants you to take the blame, please." (Matthew 1:18-20) Ziegler needs to re-read his Bible. I suspect he needs to re-read most of it.
1
IF only the Christian Evangelical community truly acted as Christians then we would ALL be better off.
For starters may I suggest - Take good care of the poor, the sick, the elderly, the immigrant and the social outcasts.
1
The only political bumper sticker I ever stuck on an automobile read as follows. The moral majority is neither. That happened in the 80’s when Falwell had his fall from grace. I should have bought 20 more of those stickers given their relevance thru the decades. #ROLLTIDE #PaddyO’file#taxcutstrumpmorality
1
It is no wonder that radical "Christian" conservatives like Roy Moore believe that Sharia Law is an actual threat in the United States.
Their delusion about Sharia Law in the U.S. is in direct competition to their goal of imposing their own religious beliefs on other Americans through the force of law.
3
I'm sure it was a Roy Moore type that was the reason for the phrase, "God help us" For him and many other evangelicals it is never about helping those in need, it is Sex, Sex Sex. Now we know why. Those who support him need to bow their heads in shame.
1
"Elnes added: “I’ve never understood why certain Christians are so eager to turn the United States into a Christian country when their time would be so much better spent turning their churches into Christian churches.”
Some of us thought that Christianity was defined by loving kindness, forgiveness, selflessness, and humbleness. What a mistake. What I have seen coming from Christianity over my lifetime, now long, makes me turn aside with nausea. This is no religion. It's a sham, a front, a cover for an insidious tyranny, a desire to control and harm. And these days, politics are dictated from the pulpit.
If there are evangelical or other Christians who believe in the separation of church and state so that they may themselves practice and pray as they see fit, who believe in kindness and care of others, they aren't speaking loudly enough these days to be heard. This is your religion, people, and you are letting the bullies and the frauds take it over. If you even exist anymore, you need to be much, much louder. I'm listening. Will I hear you? Or will you let yourselves be drowned out?
1
I can't stand the guy but he needs to be tried in a court, not just the court of public opinion. We need real judges in those courts not nasty man kleptocrat's wack jobs. That the GOP is destroying the rule of law is the real problem here.
It's sickening but what else are they going to do? They are not the sharpest knives in the block, so they don't realize that being giant hypocrites just makes more of us stay home on Sundays instead of going to church. Fear based belief systems and men in power, perfect conditions for sex predation. Now it's time to put them in jail.
1
AT THE VERY LEAST, Moore was a 30-something year old man asking the mothers of 16-18 year old girls if he could date them. Those of us with daughters, just let that sink in for a minute. This is a sick, sick man.
1
Hold on. I hardly support Mr. Moore’s worldview. But to pounce on him for hypocrisy is premature. We DO NOT KNOW IF HIS ACCUSERS ARE TELLING THE TRUTH. Where there is smoke there is absolutely not necessarily fire. Our legal system rests on that point.
I personally know someone who was falsely accused of molestation by three viscous teenage girls. IT HAPPENS.
Journalists must withhold judgment until facts have been indisputably established. The New York Times is supposedly the highest standard for journalism in the world. Much as I respect the opinions of Mr. Kristof, his views here are completely invalid, because they are founded upon supposition, not proof.
1
A mature, compassionate perspective. Way to go, NYT, with your opinion authors. This is the kind of balanced, personal, and challenging perspective I want to see distributed.
1
The only word that comes to mind in describing Roy Moore’s
“Alleged” behavior is “ despicable.”
And so is the cowardly and hypocritical typical republican response except fir John McCain’s quick calling for Moore to step down.
As a nation, we have crossed the third rail. We are a depraved and soulless bunch who support evil and condone crimes against our own citizens in order to pass a bill that lowers taxes on billionaires while lying about the true nature of who will actually suffer the most (middle class) when it’s passed.
1
Let's start by a change in terminology or punctuation. How about "so-called-Christians" or always putting "Christians" in quotes. Or using the term "evangelicals", "fundamentalists" or "hypocrites." Christian alone, without quotes or qualifiers is just too broad and charged a term. It stacks the deck.
2
I keep thinking about the line in the Bible about tombs being white and clean on the outside and full of dead men's bones on the inside. Seems a good description of Moore.
1
The saddest and most depressing part of all this is that this play has been seen before... in Iran. The sanctimonious blowhards have nothing but hatred in their hearts, and storm down the path of self righteousness regardless of how many innocent bodies it leaves it its wake. Bringing religious dogma into government doesn't purify or make government more moral, it turns the religious and the clergy into nothing more than sleazy politicians. The problem with the ambitious and self righteous with a religious mantle is that they undoubtedly turn on their own supporters. Khomeini hanged and jailed his rivals, and now Trump and the Republican's are enacting policies that hurt those who supported them the most. I fear that it's only a matter of time before turn out great democracy into a White and Christian version of Iran.
1
The louder these types thump the Bible is directly proportional to how hypocritical they are. It's a smokescreen to hide the lurid activities they themselves are committing.
Jimmy Swaggart, Jim and Tammy Baker, Ted Haggard, Tim Murphy and now Roy Moore. Hypocrites through and through. We're all human with failings but to make a life of passing judgement and preaching dogma while having extreme moral corrosion is just wrong.
1
Very soon Roy More will talkin' on the Sunday morning talk shows claiming he heard God's voice and his sins were washed away by the mercy of the all powerful. "I have born again"...Have mercy!
1
The obvious and most efficient question is... would you want your fourteen year old daughter anywhere near this man? Answer honestly. And if your answer is yes and you still vote for him, you are complicit with this crime. If the answer is no but you would still vote for him, just to shun the Democrat, then you are complicit . If you said no to both, thank you for being a light during these very dark times. We should be judging our success as a society on how well we look out for the young, elderly, sick and poor. the vulnerable. If we let this go as a society we are doomed. Protect Children Always !!
65
Yeah. God is not going to sue Moore. He's got bigger things to worry about, i.e. what we have done to this beautiful earth with pollution, animal factory farming, nuclear blasts, sheer hubris and lack of any sort of humility or respect or gratefulness. Using mother nature, he is going to get some payback, and should. Moore will be the least of the problems, though there is a nice hot seat waiting for him.
30
Rev. Elnes insights point to the basic problem with the Religious Right that has infected politics today. His criticism ought to also be directed towards those hypocritical and cowardly Christians who believe that they shouldn't judge anyone because Jebus does that in another life. What would Dr. King say about this? His whole mission was about judging what he knew was unfair and at times illegal treatment of his people.
Southern voters and their pastors will defend and elect Moore even if he molested a 2 year old baby.
1
Let he who has no sin throw the first stone...Start with the author of this article. Oh, I understand--gotta have something to write about. Clap, clap, clap.
As for true Christians, we are not deceived as to the risks involved with calling for moral behavior. What most people don't understand is that individual failings of the person with the courage to call shouldn't lessen the guilt of those committing immorality, the caller included. So attack the caller, fine. But if s/he is a Christian, that person never counted themselves out of the need for Christ because of sin. Get it straight.
I want to know that reporter's are busy following up his time after these "courtships" which very much resemble the beginning stages of a perp learning how to groom victims by finding out what he can get away with and how hard it is to wear down boundaries. The WaPo article says he went to Texas and then Australia for a year or so after the events the 4 women described. What did he get up to there? It does not seem that he changed much in the under two years he was away as his wife whom he married soon after coming back to Alabama is 14 years younger than he. Was he dating her when he was also grooming these 4 other women? She married him so I doubt she will recognize that she was groomed if he had dated her before going away to Texas and Oz.
1
I wonder if Mr Moore really believes that there is a God or if he uses that belief to win elections and benefit himself. if these allegations are true and there is an afterlife he was thinking with the wrong head when he took advantage of these young girls.
1
I think Mr. Moore has a much better understanding of the Bible and the history associated with it than you. During Jesus' time, Jewish girls were married as they neared puberty, at around 12 years old, so there was little chance of becoming pregnant before marriage. According to Jewish law, boys could be married at age 13 although it was normal that they didn't marry until they came into their father's inheritance or otherwise could earn enough money on their own to support wive(s). The fathers generally made the match. If Mary and Joseph actually existed, most likely Mary would have been about 12 or 13 and Joseph in his 20s or early 30s. The fact that the girl here was 14 would mean that during Jesus' time she already could have had at least one child, courtesy of the Holy Ghost. Moore and the victim were a perfect match for Joseph and Mary.
1
It's possible to justify just about anything with the Bible. Slavery was deeply believed to be sanctioned by the Bible, especially and very conveniently in the minds of the slave owners, of course. see: "The Civil Was as a Theological Crisis" by Mark Noll
1
At 13, I got a fake ID so that I could work, because our mother had cried when she found our dad had not sent child support again. It was painful for her to go in front of the judge repeatedly for the $75 per month. (She had 4 jobs: teaching, editor's assistant, typing, & waitressing.)
My 12 yo sister fixed pinball machines, and I sold movie concessions. One snowy night the manager, in his 20's, offered to drive me home. Once at our house he leaned over to kiss me. Surprised, I blurted out "I'm only 14..." at which point, he rolled his eyes, apologized, and vowed not to tell the theater owners.
My next job, at 14, was at a Natural Foods restaurant, as a salad girl. A super cute chef, (who thought I was 19) and I flirted sweetly for months. One day he offered to give me a massage after work, and, like a dunce, I thought that was what he really meant. Needless to say, there came a moment when the massage was feeling super good and I realized that he was no longer completely clothed. Thinking that we were engaging in foreplay, he was preparing to enter me.
My knees slammed shut, and I blurted out, again, "I'm only 14...", at which point he immediately stopped, and kindly took me home.
Did I tell anyone about those guys? Not for 20 years.
Thank goodness they were respectful; didn't bother me again, did not seek retribution. They were decent guys, as actually many men are.
A page from their book might serve Mr. Moore and his defenders better than their take on the Bible.
2
Evangelical Christians in Alabama correctly perceive that the rest of America regards them as backward and ignorant. They will vote for Roy Moore, not because they have been indoctrinated to mistrust a mainstream newspaper, not because they embrace outlandish conspiracy theories, not because they disbelieve what a woman says, not because they are sexually immoral, not because they place politics above religion, but because they cannot bear to suffer the indignity of an entire nation laughing at them for admitting that they made a mistake about Moore, for admitting that they are indeed backward and ignorant in comparison to the rest of the nation. Never underestimate the strength and stubbornness of Southern pride.
2
so 40 years later the Washington Post just happens to find this right before an election ? Are we really that gullible??
1
Q: Have you ever had sex with a cocker spaniel?
A: Not generally, no.
Would we ever elect a person to the U.S. Senate who answered such a question like that? Yet, when Sean Hannity today asked Judge Moore whether he'd ever dated teenagers while in his 30's that's the response he gave. And the Alabama state auditor says that it's perfectly fine for men in their 30s to date teenagers.
I don't know what's on the welcome sign when you drive into Alabama, but I'm wouldn't be surprised if it was written on a blue dress.
3
God is not going to sue Moore any more than god is going to work some miracle and give progressives a spine. Enough with the tsk, tsk columns. Time for crowds to start shouting “Lock him up!” At every campaign stop, outside his headquarters, and on the street where he lives. Every day. Trump declared war on decency. This is just another battle. If we don’t start fighting back, it is certain to become worse.
What happened to innocent until proven guilty? Why did these women wait until now? Don’t get too excited, Nicholas. You could be next.
What kind of man, at 30 plus years, finds pawing a 14 year old girl a good thing, a pleasurable thing? A man-child, someone of delayed adolescence and still not fully adult. Yet he was able to get a law degree and exercise some authority in his realm, probably because he was surrounded by similar men. One only has to see him with his little cowboy hat, his vest, his little revolver, to understand his mental age - he's still 14, watching the RIfleman, Gunsmoke, and the Lone Ranger, and wanting so badly to be respected like they were. The girl who came forward might very well have been his first sexual encounter.
1
"And, frankly, it’s just staggering to see “family values” conservatives making excuses for child molestation."
They're not making excuses. They're insisting on following what applies to the rule of law - innocent until proven guilty. Why would this woman wait 40 years or so to out Moore? After all, he was on the Alabama Supreme Court. Shouldn't she have told her story at some point during his Court tenure? All very suspicious. And exactly how did the Post go about finding those other women? Isn't it just possible this whole thing is a Democratic Party setup? You can't prove a negative, can you?
Christian fundamentalists have an all-purpose alibi for any sins they commit, and they have had this dictated to me on more than one occasion: "Our God is a forgiving God. All have fallen short of the Grace of God, but forgiveness is given to those who ask for it."
As it turns out, *their* God does not forgive Democrats so readily. So there you have it; a Christian fundamentalists can lie, steal, and murder on Tuesday, ask for and accept 'God's' forgiveness on Wednesday, and run for congress on Thursday. No problem. *Their* God is OK with that. And who has the audacity to argue with God?
We may laugh at this self-serving twist on morality, but with fundamentalists it is their means of bonding together in shared hypocrisy with a nod and a wink. Meanwhile they tend to the only thing that really matters to them - cashing in on Christianity and keeping up public appearances.
1
How does West Point produce a Roy Moore? I'd rather have the communist they recently graduated.
1
I'm sorry but calling this "tribalism" is an insult to tribes everywhere. Call it what it is -- the crassest possible need to feel like a "winner." And who is it that feels that way?
Losers, that's who!
1
The Bible says to women go and multiply and be fruitful. A typical woman is capable of giving birth at say 11 to 13,as soon as she gets her period. If God wanted women to wait until they were 16 to 18 why did he make them able to multiply at 11 to 13?
A woman cannot multiply w/o the assistance of a male. Perhaps Judge Moore should be praised for attempting to follow God's will?
If one examines the background to Alabama's strange views on the abuse of teenage girls one only has to look at the marriage mills in the state. With a lower age for marriage than most other surrounding states Alabama was the place to go to tie the knot with your teenage spouse.
Then there is the Southern tradition of "Sugar Daddies" which date back to elderly pensioned Confederate soldiers who became attractive targets of poverty and depression stricken young women. Oh! Don't forget what religious extremism does to one when everything is sin, sin, and more sin except God.
Add all of that together and you have a state and a region filled with Roy Moore's.
1
"Clean as a hound's tooth"? I have always heard that dogs have very dirty, germ ridden mouths. Maybe Mr. Ziegler had it right all along.
1
Realistically, what can we expect from people who claim to represent a non-existent entity?
And to take this a step further, why are people who try to impose their religious beliefs on others allowed to call themselves Americans? They violate their oaths of allegiance every time they say them. It’s long past time to call them to account.
1
The bright red parts of our country have rightly perceived a sense of disdain emanating from the urban blue tribes. And in 2016 they got theirs. They showed all of the elites they weren't done yet. So to be sure Weinstein was as much a tribalist as Trump. It was his money and power, but most importantly his cohorts, that kept his criminality obscured. Roy Moore ( disbarment eliminates the use of the honorarium) accused of a unprosecuted sex crime, in a time when people looked away. But few forgot it seems. 30 people were sourced for these four women.Now watch in horror, not in his candidacy, but its viability. What does that say in regard to the disdain you sense from us. Do you stick it in our eye again, or will your fever break?
1
I agree with much of the article here. I tend to lean right on politics. And I am a Christian. BUT Roy Moore should step down and NOW!! And for those trying to defend this by using the Bible should go home and hit their knees.
Predatory behaviour is not right, and illegal in most cases actually. It is also morally wrong. You cannot run a campaign on your morals then trash the victims when they come forward. Just go home please.
I cannot see how we have reached a point as a nation that is so very divided that we cannot agree on anything anymore. In cases like this, it doesn't matter what side of the isle you are from your answer should be the same. It should also be the same no matter what side the victim or predator comes from. Period.
2
Excellent idea, but I see one problem. Where will God find a lawyer?
1
Oh come on,,,we ALL know by now that preaching against sinful acts is a self imposed exorcism for the guilty= themselves.
Anyone who walks around dressed in a cowboy hat, preaching about the sinfulness of homosexually, bigotry and pediphilia means one thing. they are hoping to go on with their 'bad selves' and go to heaven in the end.
It's a wonderful life they live !
1
I believe religion is a way for many politicians to gain power. They aren't true believers in the word of God, only in their own selves and manipulating the word to manipulate their gullible/too-trusting followers.
1
It seems to me that the more they claim the moral high ground by attacking others usually about sexual behavior, the worse they are in their personal life. I wonder what morality there is in a 32 year old man molesting a 14 year old girl and yet his defenders don't seem to have a problem with it and are using even Bible stories as an excuse.
The depravity has reached the levels of preferring a pedophile as your senator as long as your political party remains in power. If you have this kind of mentality, sadly there is nothing left to say to you.
2
HRC had it right. These people are deplorable.
4
I can't believe there is a woman alive who doubts Moore did this. Reading about making a 14 year old take off her clothes and then rubbing his hands all over her and making her fondle him thru his underwear; that's exactly the mid-level ick of that time period.
This isn't a romantic or even violent memory. But it is exactly the memory a terrified 14 year old would carry with her always after being trapped alone with a child molester.
He did it. And if men don't want to admit this, it just shows us how little women mean to them.
2
From Wikipedia "Cheap grace, Bonhoeffer says, is to hear the gospel preached as follows: "Of course you have sinned, but now everything is forgiven, so you can stay as you are and enjoy the consolations of forgiveness."
Seems to me Judge Moore is trying to have it on the cheap
1
Moore, Jim Ziegler, Ed Henry all seem to have their brains washed by a 'bible' that knows no Jesus! Regardless of their religious beliefs, the way these men justify their actions (fund raising with the accusations!) is enough to demand they be removed from positions of power immediately! I am so glad the Harvey Weinstein story broke and women & men have come out publicly about their painful encounters with these predators. It has brought to light so many of these puffed up men of low morals and no respect for women mainly. They need to be pilloried in public!
1
Didn't we just do this? As I recall, the guy won the election anyway
2
I realized long ago that the ones who preach the loudest are usually the ones most guilty of being hypocrites in some way. I find it interesting that in two very different religions and cultures - Christianity and Islam, the men in both these religions have come to the same conclusion - using their respective holy books to justify their, usually sexual, behavior. Very interesting indeed.
1
Perhaps now, in this new climate in which girls and women are coming forward to talk about molestation, abuse, and attacks that happened to them long ago, people who today and tomorrow are molested, abused, or attacked will report their molesters, abusers, and attackers immediately rather than wait months, years, and decades to do so. That is my hope.
3
The problem with the Ten Commandments is that they do not actually forbid anything Roy Moore is accused of here. As others have pointed out, rape, child molestation, things like that, are OK, so long as no one is married.
Evangelicals can quote you chapter and verse on any subject. They stand ready to put you in your place showing them as always right and you as always wrong.
My family is from Culpepper, Virginia where tolerance was Generally the norm.
I treasure that.
The raging self-righteous bigots of evangelism continue with their campaign of
Intolerance. I just wonder what they would do if every American agreed with them and they lost their audience?
2
Baffling how this party succumbs to subverting morality, civility and humanity to blame women and children. Shameful.
2
I am not sure many secular NYT readers can follow you, Mr Kristof. They seem rather obsessed with attacking the right, the evangelicals, whatever. Not a bad things in itself of course but here completely off point.
The point you make abundantly clear is to uphold the vastly different value system of God's faithful that holds each of us to the highest standard and condemns outright those poseurs who diminish us. Jew, gentile, or anyone, read the Sermon the Mount and take it seriously.
Amen to the call for evangelicals to stop defending Roy Moore, and all the other harassers of women. I remember being horrified that so many defended Clarence Thomas.
Hate the sin, even if you love the sinner.
1
I think it's fascinating how quickly the religionists can whip out references to their Iron Age texts to justify any conceivable deed. And textual references can always be reinforced with "forgiveness," the all encompassing get out of jail free card for the saved among us. We poor "left behinds" can only look on in wonder.
1
There's a scene in Mel Brooks' History of the World, Part I, where Moses, as portrayed by Brooks, descends from the mount to deliver the Commandments to the Ancient Hebrews (https://youtu.be/I48hr8HhDv0). He declares to the people, and I paraphrase, "I give to you, the 15 Commandments!" (He drops one tablet.) "Oy, Ten Commandments!" I wish there there had been a few more commandments, including one that stated "thou shalt not nor give anyone else permission to take a child or any individual who cannot give informed consent into thy bed." Perhaps, individuals such as Moore, Weinstein, C.K., Trump, Clinton, Spacey, and Allen, among others, would have been publically and/or criminally called to account for their behaviors many years sooner.
Roy Moore promises to establish conservative Christianity as the state religion. That is all the poor fools need to hear. They believe he will or would if he could and nothing else matters.
1
Neither side can claim much support in either Testament. In biblical times, children were most frequently married off when they reached puberty, a practice JC seems never to have condemned. Consent was beside the point. Not even nuptials were required in the Ages of Miracles when the holy vessel was the daughter of a bested enemy. Moral abhorrence at what today might be called statutory rape or child molestation is of far more recent and largely social origin.
My first reaction to this news was that Roy Moore must have fashioned the Ten Commandments plaque he insisted on hanging in his courtroom to remind himself that he should not covet teenagers.
I believe the women. Period.
Moore needs to resign from the race. He and others like him do not belong in Congress.
1
"When Christians cite the Bible to defend child molestation, Jesus should sue for defamation." Brilliant writing, Mr. Kristof. Thanks to you (for two excellent columns) and Lindy West this week for keeping some of us on the side of sanity.
1
If any of you out there support Roy Moore please explain Roy Moore to my teenage daughters. I am bereft of answers that doesn't ingnite my desire to reach out a bunch that man in the face. Any thirty year old man who chases teenaged girls is a pariah to us all. Imagine having him call upon your teenage daughter for a date? I think that Roy Moore represents one of the best reasons for me to keep my Mossberg ready and loaded with rock salt. Sadly, I doubt I can go to my pastor for support. It's a crazy world, but can't we agree that child molesters need to be cast out and jailed?
1
We are indeed awash in empty tribalism and the hypocrisy of such dissembling, so-called Christians beggars belief.
How does one re-instill a sense of shame into a culture that appears to have lost all sense of it? At the moment, public outings seem to be leading the way, and may they indeed lead to justice being served on these phony-biblical creeps!
2
Those who boast about their righteousness are like those who boast about how smart they are. The truth is the opposite.
If you will pardon rewording an old saying in order to bring it up to date, how about "The Lord of the Manor doth protest too much."
I can't stand the sight of this person but, the people in this part of the country are mostly of the evangelical kind, and if you read the old testament of the bible you can readily see why they have such a low opinion of women.
The old testament has many instances where women are taken as spoils of war sanctioned by that sadistic god, or bought and sold as so much chattel. There is a definite two tear system with the men having all the power and women none.
The sad part is that the women succumb to this system and become part of it.
1
Evidence?
"The evidence of child molestation against Roy Moore seems credible."
It's a "he said/she said" case -- nothing more, nothing less. He says it didn't happen; several women say it did. Personally, I think it did, and so I'd not vote for Moore. But I don't pretend to know, nor to deny Alabama voters the right to make their own judgments on this.
The one thing that Christian evangelicals get that most liberal Democrats don’t is that when Jesus taught us not to judge others lest we be judged ourselves, he was teaching that to everybody not just the people on the other side.
I have to wonder what Jeff Sessions thinks of Roy Moore's situation. What Roy Moore very likely did (sexual misconduct with a 14 year old) is illegal, and Jeff Sessions is the head of the Justice Dept. If Sessions had any ethical understanding, he would condemn Moore. Very little decency in the Trump's world view.
1
Well, that's the question, isn't it?
"...until he agrees to confess his sins, repent"
What if he's telling the truth, and thus has no sins to confess, nothing to repent for? That's what he claims. Maybe he's lying (personally, I think he is); maybe he's not. None of us knows. Absent some compelling evidence, Alabama voters are just as able as we are to decide.
Sometimes everything seems so odd to me. Moore was pretty straightforward in admitting his guilt in the interview with Hannity. Cut and dry yet somehow the NY Times and other mainstream media outlets report something different. So strange. Shows how conservative mainstream media truly is.
I am not shocked by the allegations against Moore. He did not express revulsion about a man in his thirties cohabitating with a girl still in high school (age 16+). What shocks me is how the pious evangelicals give him and Trump (the genital grabber) a pass so long as they are pro-life (a dubious claim by Trump who even recently expressed pro-choice sentiments). Regarding Moore. they don't rail against his having relations with a 14-year-old, as long as he doesn't ask her to have an abortion if she got pregnant. What hypocrisy.
77
Based on the large (and somewhat embarrassing) amount of money I spend annually having my dogs' teeth scraped clean of smelly plaque & deadly decay, I would indeed concur that Moore is 'clean as a hound's tooth.'
1
The religious beliefs are shaped by the tribal culture and not the other way around. Roy Moore is their pick because he is a major figure in the culture wars. They call them conservative values but it's guns, anti-abortion, patriarchy, homophobia, xenophobia and misogyny that are at the core of the system. Trump plays on those core beliefs for his own benefit. Moore embodies them. All the God talk is meaningless jibber jabber.
That statue of the ten commandments that Roy Moore insisted on installing in his courthouse were apparently, to him, either the ten suggestions or the fewer than ten rules.
1
Should God sue Roy Moore? I don't know - and neither do you, Nick.
The truth about lying is that both men and women lie. And people who have studied lying using the scientific method tell us men and women lie about equally. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3430664/
I'm a woman, and I've had a few mild episodes of what could be called sexual harassment - had the comments or actions continued. But the comments or actions didn't continue. Each episode was stopped when I let the man know I was not interested.
But the tone of today's comments and opinions about sexual harassment seems to assume the male is lying and the female is telling the truth. As an old song says, "It ain't necessarily so.....".
If this was a legal case, we would (or should) be saying "Wait until evidence is presented".
That's what we should be doing now. Because the allegations are almost 40 years old, there can be no legal case. Because the allegations are almost 40 years old, memory is not necessarily accurate.
Because of the time frame and the position of the man in question, politics is involved......heavily involved.
And that's a shame: we have learned that politicians will often lie. Note that's politicians - not one party or the other.
And Nick, it's a shame that you and others in the news media write as though whatever helps your political belief along is true. And that's political belief - period. Both sides are guilty........and that's no lie.
2
Evangelicals seem to be the most un-Christian people that exist. I always thought so, but that belief was entrenched further when they justified supporting all the anti-Christian acts that Donald Trump engaged in on his way to the Presidency.
1
Calling oneself an "evangelical" does not a Christian make. I know many, many Christians (myself and many friends and family members included) who are appalled by Trump and co., disgusted by Roy Moore and his defenders, and wish the whole lot would be swallowed up by a hole in the earth, Old Testament-style. I don't think it's fair to suggest that "Christians" are supporting this immoral dreck, but I am hugely embarrassed by those in the public eye who claim to speak for any/all of us.
1
I read an eye-opening op-ed piece in the LA Times written by a woman raised in the fundamentalist evangelical religious right, who wrote that the reason the Alabama conservatives, other fundamentalist evangelicals outside the state, attacking Moore's accusers, or downplaying the allegations even if they think they may be true, is because child sexual abuse is often normalized in fundamental evangelicalism. Billy Graham's grandson leads an organization called GRACE (Godly Response to Abuse in a Christian Environment), and believes the sexual abuse problem in fundamental evangelicalism is on a par with the Catholic Church. The author spoke of her own experiences, said women have shared their experiences with each other, wrote of: "'early courtship' so the girl could be molded into the best possible helpmeet for her future husband." About: "adult men targeting 14- to 16-year-old girls. If caught, the teenage victim may be forced to repent the 'sin' of having seduced an adult man. Women raised in evangelicalism and fundamentalism have for years discussed the normalization of child sexual abuse. We’ve told our stories on social media and on our blogs and various online platforms, but until the Roy Moore story broke, mainstream American society barely paid attention. Everyone assumed this was an isolated, fringe issue. It isn’t." It seems the Alabama conservative reaction, the Biblical defenses, is emblematic of this problem, of which, apparently, Moore is only a symptom.
2
Mr Trump says he believes Mr Putin, who says he didn't meddle in our elections, despite extensive evidence to the contrary. A fair number of conservative Christians believe Mr Moore when he says he didn't molest children despite the testimony of 4 teenagers. Evidence however incontrovertible has been rendered false, unbelievable and fake, simply because it is inconvenient. The capacity to do this, while a convenient trick, is quite simply a mark of supreme ignorance and arrogance, and that is the real threat.
1
Not unusual to find that people who are excessively zealous about some moral issue are actually some of the worst transgressors. The world needs competent administrators, not great moralizers.
1
At some point it becomes hard to take this all in.
How low can people in power go? Must we watch!
Has revenge of the nerds become the new national anthem?
Do we have the time or resources to even consider these formerly unimportant questions?
We are losing our faith in America, politicians, religion and in ourselves. There is no putting the genie back in the bottle. The hypocrisy and lies continue to pollute our national vision and character. The greatness of america was our naive faith in our country and ourselves. The party is over. I hate to see what is coming.
1
I remember when I was 16 1/2 years of age. I had been fooling around with a 14 year old girl -with her full consent. Even then, though I was only 2.5 years older than her and she was enjoying our time together I knew deep inside that she was too young.
How it is possible for a man of 32 years to prey on a 14 year old girl is beyond my comprehension.
It's always the most sanctimonious among us that commit the worst sins.
1
I think nearly everyone agrees that Moore should step down if the allegations are true.
But that's the question: ARE they true? Frankly, I suspect they are, but I don't know that. It's a "he said/she said" case – no more, no less. If neither side has any evidence (so far, none), then each Alabama voter is just as capable as we are at deciding.
I guess that's the question, isn't it?
"...if the account is true Moore has to resign and face the consequences..."
If. We don't know. I suspect the allegations are true, but I'd ignore them if I were voting and the case remained what it is right now: a "he said/she said" case. That's not good enough. You may already have intended to vote against Roy Moore but, if not, I wouldn't change your mind based only on these unsubstantiated allegations.
C'mon Nicholas, time to give up the fantasy that there is a god. Or at least, that the Bible describes that god.
I was a good evangelical with a theology degree, and several years as a missionary in England. When I returned to America after 20 years, it was obvious that my evangelical church was a political movement, giving up all pretense of following this guy Jesus. American religion sickened me, but also made me re-examine my lifetime belief. I soon discovered that Christianity (and all religions) was a human cultural construct and could not withstand a rational, logical examination.
I gave up belief 8 years ago, and now at 69, I feel like I've been born-again again. Never been happier.
1
A real dilemma here:
It IS suspicious that this was brought up shortly before the election. On the other hand, if it's true, Moore should step aside, regardless of the timing.
However, because the timing is so suspicious, I'd give Moore the benefit of the doubt. It's a "he said/she said" case. I tend to think the allegations are true, but I don't claim to know. If one of his accusers adds something to verify her claim, or if Moore admits it's true, he's guilty. But unless and until that happens, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. The timing is highly suspicious.
3
She told her girlfriends about it at the time. She told her mother about it when he was running for office and he was on the front page of the local paper. She told a boyfriend about it in 2009 or so. They all back up her story. No, it was not brought out to the public until last week after WaPo reporters spent weeks tracking down the rumors they heard and got her and the others to go on the record. Is there reason to doubt the story she has told consistently to all these different people over the years? Telling her story involved the usual risks which can be devastating and worse than the original abuse. That's the reason most people keep the code of silence when it involves a person of power, fame or wealth.
2
It's a smear that might not work. True or not, it will always be there now.
Agree. It's just a "he said she said case." Then another she said. And one more. And then one more after that. Sheesh. That way too many shes for me not to become a true believer that this true believer is truly a liar.
1
My mother was ten years younger than my father and my grandmother was 18 years younger than my grandfather and married at 17. Relationships were different 50 to 80 years ago.
2
But they married. These allegations describe serial sexual predation of young girls, not a chaste courtship that led to marriage. There's a vast difference. I'm assuming your parents and grandparents waited until marriage before having sexual relations, since that was also the norm in courtships then. He was an assistant district attorney, so should be held to a higher standard, and from what I heard of the first half of his Hannity interview (Sean must have given him a critique in between) and what I read in Breitbart, that I'm fairly certain were his words, his defense, he doesn't see what's wrong with older men "courting" minors then or now, and while the age of consent in some states may be 16, they're still minors, not considered mature enough to vote, smoke or drink, so not mature enough to match wits with a predatory adult. If we normalize this, then what about teachers, clergy, or other figures of public trust, like district attorneys, who have "romantic" relationships with young girls (or boys), who are minors, but technically the age of consent? The religious right is outraged by those stories, rightly so, but want to give someone who claims to an arbiter of morality, who would be drafting laws, possibly about child sexual abuse, a pass. No.
2
And your point is what, exactly? Adult sexual exploitation of children and teens is wrong regardless of the era it took place. Please don't suggest otherwise.
1
Moore molested a 14 year old - he did not marry her. Your grandmother was 17- not 14. The point you're trying to make is unclear. (And, while it's true that relationships were different 50-80 years ago, this was not 50-80 years ago.) Child molesters do not belong in government; they belong in prison.
2
if the account is true Moore has to resign and face the consequences of his actions. All else is irrelevant
17
Whichever Baptist convention he is a part of could do the rest of us a huge failure--and show their true Christian faith--by suspending him from membership until he agrees to confess his sins, repent, and perform public service sponsored by the church designed to help prevent future offenders and undo the damage done to those already hurt. There's a word for those who provide aid and comfort for those who commit acts for which there are extremely credible allegations--enablers if the offense is beyond the statute of limitations; co-conspirators if his conduct should prove to have continued long enough to permit criminal prosecution. Did the religious community learn nothing from the horrendous price the Roman Catholic Church is paying for its pedophile priests?
20
Let's be clear. I'm a conservative and I don't like Roy Moore. I think he's an unctuous toad for whom I would never vote. That being said, while I always want to see pedophiles punished to the maximum extent possible, I fear that right now this whole thing is spinning out of control like the Salem witch trials where just to be accused was enough to get you burned at the stake, drowned or hanged.
Avoiding an odious rush to judgement is particularly important when it involves unsubstantiated claims of wrongdoing from almost 40 years old that just magically appear less than 4 weeks before an election. The coincidence stinks.
I like reasoned due process and I don't like trial by vox populi hyped up by media or partisan hacks for their own benefit.
7
I understand you, I think, but please consider: These women did not step forward and make accusations; a reporter heard something, which led to people who knew something, to yet other people. There was no reason for the national press to pursue an investigation of Roy Moore until now; he was just of state or regional interest earlier, and these women were not starlets. They were just children when they encountered Moore.
As to their not coming forward at the time: Do you have any idea at all how difficult it would be for a 14-year-old to testify to having a grown man take her clothes off her and touch her sexually? This would take enormous courage for a grown woman even in these permissive times, and think of how it would have been 40 years ago for a kid. At that time, the woman, in this case just a girl, was put on trial. This was the case even decades later.
I had a friend who was raped by a serial rapist in Oklahoma City in the 1980s. She was not treated kindly by the police. Though the man had in fact raped six women in a relatively short time, only one woman was asked to testify, given that she lived a nun's life, and that's what the prosecution needed to get a conviction. Tell me, can you imagine a 14-year-old girl going through such an experience or testifying about it?
Think about the nature of the charges and the age of these girls. Do you wonder why it took so long for them to say anything to anyone, and even then only after being asked?
2
It's hardly coincidence, or "magical appearance", these allegations were dug up by investigative journalists from the Washington post by following rumors that had been floating around for a while.
He's running for a national office now, just because the incompetents down in Alabama didn't bother to properly vet him for state office (like, for instance, voting him back in after he had been removed from office for breaking the law) - doesn't mean that he's going to be free from the spotlight when he tries inserting his stench into the rest of the country.
I hate to say it, but only a man could say what you said...
These women suffered in silence and the imminent election tipped the scales in favor of their incredible bravery to speak out- as dutiful citizens to inform the public that this candidate is a criminal who has not been brought to justice.
1
"I’ve never understood why certain Christians are so eager to turn the United States into a Christian country when their time would be so much better spent turning their churches into Christian churches.”"
Sorry, but there is no great shortage of Christian Churches in America. And the overwhelming majority of these churches are good and devout and holy and call their followers to be good and devout and holy. A lack of Churches to defend morality and decency and life and the traditional family and hard work is not what is bringing down America. But those Churches have been rendered powerless and impotent by a media and a social hierarchy that scorns them and what they stand for. The fact that no matter what your mother and your father and your pastor and your sunday school teacher tell you, one step into the outside world and you are bombarded with support for everything from abortion to promiscuity to homosexuality.
Without the Church, government is blind. Without the government, the Church, it seems, is lame.
6
Abortion, promiscuity, and homosexuality have nothing to do with what's bringing America down. It's the redistribution of wealth to the 1% while agitating the racist, sexist, and homophobic fears of the masses to keep the focus off their increasing poverty, the swamp of money into our electoral system that ensures only the wealthy and those who serve them have access, the destruction of the social safety net, the offshoring of jobs, the rejection of science, the anti-intellectualism rampant in the Republican party, the xenophobia that's closing borders and choking the flow of immigrants that's always been the lifeblood of this nation, the defunding of our public school and university systems, the Republican refusal to invest in infrastructure...shall I go on? Because it's these things that build up America and not fealty to primitive religious morality.
Christianity is not necessary to build a great civilization. History is full of great civilizations that were not Christian. In fact, Rome declined and fell after Christianity was made the state religion. That should be a warning against the radical Christian power grab underway. Though this country began with a predominantly Christian populace, it's really the respect for the absolute rights of each and every person, whether poor or rich, to pursue life and liberty no matter their religion, race, gender, and orientation that made this country great.
Religion has nothing whatsoever to do with morality. Religion has been responsible for more horror in human history than any other belief system.
1
So, support for the promiscuous and those who have had terminations.
Ziegler did not cite scripture when he defended Moore with the statement "(Joseph and Mary) became the parents of Jesus".
Most of us with even the thinnest Christian background remember Jesus' parentage quite differently. Joseph isn't really a major player in the big picture that serves as the root of New Testament religion...
11
God's justice is sure. Biblical Christians rest in that truth and glory only in the grace of their salvation by faith, through grace. No need to wring hands here. And please - men running for office are not in a pulpit and their flag wavers are not spokesmen for Christ or His Word. Surely you can see that the use of the term "evangelical" has become a media stereotype that confuses politics with piety.
3
The best Christians I know are quiet, humble and matter-of-fact about their faith, about it philosophy, and about their works.
Invariably, it seems that those who proclaim their Christianity with the most vehemence, with the most piety, are the biggest, most obvious pretenders of all.
61
My grandfather always told me that if a person has to tell you he's a Christian, he probably isn't. Or if he says "Believe me" all the time, don't believe him!
2
The author's soft spot for evangelicals assumes that they act in the public sphere with religious instincts. The better counter argument is that evangelical action is related to protection of herd domination and political will, all the while complaining of liberal elite persecution. Prayer merely gives cover to allow for the best of "Christian integrity" to pervert public policy and support the worst of our executives, and you know who they are.
9
The evidence of child molestation against Roy Moore seems credible. He has pandered to xenophobia and islamophobia as well, like trump. Trump’s rise and many of his actions have been predictable. The gop wants to pass a massive tax cut for the wealthy and corporations, who offshore their wealth and do not pay a fair share of tax as is. Trump and gop donors would be the benificiaries, mainly. Social programs are being cut and many in the middle class are about to pay higher taxes and the fiscal deficit is heading to 23 trillion, which can only lead to further cuts in social programs and education-and it is all being done to cut taxes for the top 1 percent. Republicans are looking the other way when confronted with child molestation, and some are defending it. But there is hope. ray moore and his supporters are not who most americans are. Many women and minority candidates are running for election and winning since november 2016.
12
Pedophiles can't stop the urge but somehow he did? What an amazing man.
"In my columns, I’ve repeatedly defended evangelical Christians, and protested that they are one of the few groups that it’s socially acceptable for liberals to mock, stereotype and discriminate against. "
Mr. Kristof:
I wish instead you'd defend the mainstream denominations that get besmirched because evangelical/politicians make all believers look bad.
23
I can certainly believe the women kept it to themselves until now. They may have tried to tell someone and been told they were in the wrong, the way I was.
When I was barely 14, I got a job working for an old family friend, doing paperwork for his company. After I'd been doing that for a while, he offered to show me around the office, since I'd been doing this at home.
Apparently, that included not only the tour of the office, but taking me to dinner at one of the finest restaurants in town, buying me various presents, and then trying to give me a shoulder rub which quickly spread to caressing other parts of my body. I decided it was time to go home right then and there, and stopped working for him soon thereafter. He kept pursuing me, including sending me a huge bouquet of flowers that contained 12 red roses, slightly disguised by adding other flowers.
I finally told my parents and the counselor I was seeing, and all three of them told me I was wrong, that I was misinterpreting his kindness because I was a hormonally-crazed teenager. So I just quit trying to talk about it.
A couple years later, he tried to kill himself, and confessed it all to his wife, including his pursuit of me and several other teen girls. My parents were grudgingly forced to believe my story, although I got the impression they still believed I'd tried to seduce him.
So when women don't talk about this sort of thing for years, I understand some of the reasons why.
391
I am from a generation where anything sexual was the woman's fault and it would have horribly backfired if a woman accused a man. It is time that things are changing, but as long as we have dinosaurs like Moore, it will be a long battle.
59
H.W.,
Thank you for your comment and I wish you peace. I'm sorry for what you had to endure.
3
I am so sorry for this to happen to you and not have the support of your parents.
2
This is the issue with "faith-based" morality: the Bible has a lot of vague pronouncements, and can be used to justify everything from pacifism to military conquest to stoning someone for getting a tattoo. It's really just semantics, not an actionable ethical philosophy.
36
mate, the issue with morality that is not "faith-based" is exactly the same, except even more so. Because at least a faith-based morality assumes a metaphysical horizon. The systems that you seem to champion are all invented, artificial, created by man, and therefore subject to the desires of man.
Yes scriptural texts can be understood in a multitude of ways, often time in contradictory ways. But at least that is an exegetical issue, not a metaphysical issue.
8
"It's really just semantics, not an actionable ethical philosophy."-James
Clearly, the ancients understood people pretty well. If you need to control someone, or a group, just keep them guessing. Make rules that change as you need them. Humans can't be run like battery hens, although, that's been tried, too. Just embrace the irregular and everything will just be what it...is. We. Are. Not. Infinitely. Perfectible.
4
Uhm, the philosophical foundation of Western culture is very tighly emeshed with Christian morality.
Billy Graham's popularity was said to be a function of not articulating various sins, but to point out the temporal nature of life, and the need to find Eternal values. Evangelicals would do well to follow his example. Stop presenting Redemption as 'what you do not do anymore,' to what you are now, 'A shining light of love that includes all God's children', good, bad, and indifferent, who know judgement is not a function of their newly renewed little mind.
7
Thanks for writing this. I had forgotten about Billy Graham.
I never liked Graham when he was active in evangelizing, but that's because I was just a kid and an atheist kid at that. No one made the Christian story credible to me, and given the adults I was surrounded by, I thought it was a safe bet to reject any view from them. I grew up in Klan country, and the same people who went to church on Sundays went to a Klan meeting on a weekday night, I dismissed religion as ignorance. I didn't see anything in my own family to make me think otherwise.
But after some decades, I read that Graham would not preach at a revival in the South if his hosts kept blacks in separate areas, and that made a huge impression on me. Everyone I saw who professed to be religious was also a racist. Graham's stand on race kind of opened me up, and I later met far better role models of religion than the racist adults I knew as a child. Graham's refusal of segregation at his revivals was an enormously courageous stand to take at that time in the Jim Crow South. Think about it.
I do not think that these charlatans who spout Christianity (usually via the Old Testament) realize the harm they do. They undoubtedly make some children reject religion wholesale, and yes, for that Jesus should be allowed to sue.
So thanks for reminding me of Billy Graham. But how in the world did he spawn a son like Franklin? That apple seems to have rolled a bit far from the tree.
17
Billy Graham's grandson has an organization called GRACE (Godly Response to Abuse in a Christian Environment), which addresses the child sexual abuse issue of fundamentalist evangelicalism, which he believes is worse than that of the Catholic Church. I think religious fundamentalism can engender and normalize child sexual abuse, as well as misogyny. If you use an ancient religious text to inform how you live and embrace a literal interpretation of the Bible (or Quran in Islam), then you're going to be more apt to subscribe to or tolerate, view as justifiable, what was considered normal, even moral, two millennia ago, but in the less barbaric, more enlightened, civilized and humane age we live in, no longer is — like marrying young girls (i.e. sexualizing young girls), treating women and children as chattel, patriarchy and misogyny in general, and slavery, which may explain the Confederate apologists, and those who even say slavery should've never ended. It also engenders, enables, zealotry and militancy, leading to polarization as a result of the fervent rhetoric, dogmatism, anti-intellectualism and fanatical animus that makes tolerance and rational, civil discourse nearly impossible, and can arouse extremism and violence. My problem's not with religion, it's with extremism, in any form, religious, political, etc., but "moderate," which simply means "reasonable, opposed to extreme views and actions" is now anathema among, not all Christians, just the religious right.
1
I too greatly respected Billy Graham even though I am now an atheist. In 1999 while I was living in Massachusetts he preached a service at the chapel at Harvard University. I made it a point to go out of respect and a sense of nostalgia for the time when Christianity was reasonable, loving, and respectful of the law of the land and the diversity of its people. I sat in the second row and it was like seeing a rock star because his TV appearances and books were such a big part of my childhood and upbringing by Baptist parents. He had kind eyes and was gentle and loving while firmly focusing on heavenly matters, rather than the tawdry obsessions with sex, politics, and power of his son.
With his death, that last of those days also died and his son is now accelerating the destruction of not only Christianity but of this nation. In fact, I'm still mourning his death today because were he alive, it's possible he'd have a moderating influence on Franklin.
Mr. Ziegler is not any kind of Christian, if he actually believes what he said about Joseph and Mary. There are two beliefs that are essential to Christian theology: Jesus was the Son of God, not Joseph; and having endured human suffering and death, was raised. This is no mere quibble and gives rise to this question. Just what exactly are these self-styled "Evangelical Christians" evangelizing? It is certainly not the Christian Gospel.
35
John Burke, please do not present this as a litmus test for Christians, given that many thoughtful Christians (and ignorant ones, too, apparently) do not believe in the former criterion. However we disagree, the point is that some official down in Alabama is dumb enough to equate Joseph's marriage to a much younger Mary with a grown man trying to seduce a child. The times and societal mores are a bit different after two thousand years. And a seduction is not a marriage.
1
Many New Testament passages recount Jesus telling his followers to love not only one’s neighbors and self, but also one’s enemies. Roy Moore and his followers seem to resolve the cognitive dissonance that Moore cannot follow the Ten Commandments by: (1) lawyering the Ten Commandments, (2) ignoring that Adultery as taught by fundamentalist churches includes premarital sexual conduct, (3) ignoring that bearing false witness includes calumny; i.e., attacking Moore’s accusers, (4) ignoring the teachings to love one’s enemies, and (4) believing their version of Christianity is under siege by the rest of the world.
Finally, they seem to teach that those who oppose Moore should be hated and considered evil; thus, foreclosing any possibility of considering the merits of the accusation or of understanding their "enemy" who might be championing the cause of the meek - as Jesus would have wanted - perhaps.
28
"I’ve repeatedly defended evangelical Christians, and protested that they are one of the few groups that it’s socially acceptable for liberals to mock, stereotype and discriminate against."
This false equivalency with other groups that suffer discrimination really, really bothers me. Other groups aren't blatantly trying to roll back hard-won rights of women, minorities, and the LGBTQ community. Other groups aren't trying to aggresively rewrite law to bring about a radical Christian theocracy. Other groups don't aggressively police morality and attempt to force primitive Iron Age law on our modern, advanced society. Other groups don't show such disdain for science. Other groups aren't trying to subvert the First, Fourth, Ninth, and Fourteenth Amendments.
There is absolutely no comparison and it's intellectually disingenuous to insist there is. When Christians return to their own communities to practice their religion in keeping with the First and Ninth Amendments, when they learn to live in peace with and acceptance of the multicultural reality that is America, when they stop exhibiting such toxic hate and rage that they're willing to burn down our society, and when they accept science and the changes it necessitates, then and only then can you make a case for them being just like any other minority group. Until then, they deserve our scorn, derision, and active resistance to the bitter end.
101
Conservative males have rarely really been strong supporters of feminism and women's rights — all of them, and have been forced to accept the existence of these by those who aren't conservative males. And given their party over country mentality, it's not surprising that some actually try and defend human failure Ray Moore. Being without functional morality, they pretend the problem isn't Moore but his accusers. Their hero is the lying idiotic-in-chief narcissist, who believes grabbing what he wants is not a problem. What a role model.
Eclectic Pragmatism — http://eclectic-pragmatist.tumblr.com/
Eclectic Pragmatist — https://medium.com/eclectic-pragmatism
22
I haven't read the Washington Post account but I hear it's pretty convincing and pretty devastating. What happens, though, when the next account s not quite so convincing?
Hysteria on this topic seems easily stoked. Do we really want to appoint ourselves judge, jury and executioner? Why bother with a legal system at all then? In fact, why don't we just throw the jihadi nutcase who mowed down people in NYC in prison and throw away the key and forget bothering with a trial. After all, he was caught red-handed.
Yeah, I know, nobody' suggesting we throw Moore in prison (or are they?). I guess if all we want to do is judge, condemn and banish him then, hey, why shouldn't a news article be sufficient.
Be careful what you hope for as it might come back to bite. It's called the law of unintended consequences.
It's going to be fascinating, and probably instructive, to see if all the consequences of our current obsession with judging people in the public forum for their sexual behavior are beneficial as most everyone, except neanderthals. seems to think it will be.
13
I truly understand your point of not wanting to convict without adequate proof, but Moore is not sitting before 12 jurors in a courtroom who need to decide if he is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, then after conviction, decide how to deprive him of his liberty. He has constitutional protections under the Fifth, Sixth, and Fourteenth Amendments that entitle him to Due Process before being deprived of his liberty.
However, Moore has no Due Process right to be elected a U.S. Senator. Moreover, the citizens of the United States have the First Amendment right to speak on matters of political concern, to redress grievances against the government, and freedom of association. The rights under the First Amendment give citizens the right to express the opinion that Moore is unfit to be a Senator of the United States.
As a citizen, I express the view he is unfit.
78
This doesn't have anything to do with a criminal prosecution, which is where the standard you reference applies.
This is about voting.
35
It's not even a "judge, condemn and banish" matter. It's about whether he should represent his state in the US senate. I'm sure he could easily get another job if he loses the election.
42
I am absolutely stea-- erm, properly citing the bit about making the churches Christian churches. Also the one you didn't cite, about specks, beams, and eyes.
18
I appreciate the comparison with Anthony Weiner - reviled by the right and sentenced to prison for sexting. No one in Alabama (or New York) defended Weiner as being like Joseph with the Virgin Mary.
113
I don't want to defend Mr Moore's actions at all but I think the term "child molestation" should be reserved for offences against prepubescent children. Similarly, elsewhere I've read descriptions of his alleged crimes as "paedophilia". Again that term is officially reserved for a sexual attraction to prepubescent children.
Mr Moore may have been - or may still be - a "hebephile" (someone sexually attracted to young adolescents) or a "ephebophile" (someone sexually attracted to older adolescents). In any case, I don't think he's a fit person to be a US senator even if he's innocent of sexual offences against such individuals.
24
Sorry, but I disagree. The law recognizes that a 14 year old is still a child, too young to understand the full consequences of either consenting or refusing. Imagine, if you will, how easy it would be for one who appears to be a respectable Assistant DA to take advantage of the child in the first place, and the chilling effect the position would have upon the family's aiblity to report the crime. Who was going to prosecute him, his fellow prosecutors? And "molestation" has a generic meaning, which is generally "to annoy, to harass, to interfere with".
55
Sorry, but it is not clear what you disagree with. Anyone at any age can be said to be a child. I am the child of my parents, though I am 49. Nothing I said suggested that what Mr Moore is alleged to have done is not wrong or a crime. However it is not as grave as molesting a prepubescent child - that is all I meant to convey.
I favour thinking of human lives divided into childhood, adolescence and adulthood: not just childhood and adulthood. Adolescents feel sexual desire and - therefore - were regarded as adults and could marry in the past. Thinking of them as children is a modern development.
Excuse me, but Americans seem conflicted about adolescent sexuality. A man in his thirties initiating sexual activity with an adolescent is wrong, but so is denying that adolescents are sexual beings, as the US's high teenage pregnancy rate suggests. And do you realise those under 16 can be married in your country? That's outlawed in mine. Children or not?
2
You are splitting hairs here. Any person under the age of consent is legally a child. The definition is not based on biology but mental maturity. Nine year-olds are hitting puberty, would you call them adolescents?
I've got to hand it to the GOP. By backing Trump and now Mr Moore, they may bring down both the US and the Christian Church in America in one fell swoop.
62
There is no "Christian Church in America". There are numerous denominations, of which evangelical ones seem to get themselves in trouble a lot. There is no reason why mainline Protestant denominations should be injured, unless via guilt by association.
8
I vote for guilt by association and silence like they accuse the Muslims of. There's very little difference actually.
1
Whether Moore is guilty or not is immaterial: he should be disqualified because he has contempt for the Constitution and cannot honestly swear to uphold it.
102
That puts him in the same category with another public figure who, for example, deliberately spreads false claims about the citizenship of the sitting president, the legitimacy of elections, and the independence of the judiciary.
48
Judge Roy Moore was also a birther. He wrote articles for the birther blog, World Net Daily. Birther Queen Orly Taitz pursued a birther case to the Alabama Supreme Court expecting to get a ruling that Obama's BC was fake and he had been born in Kenya. Like Trump, he traffics in conspiracy theories. Neither facts nor the law matter to him.
1
The Bible is about the last place to look for any moral clarity. You'd do better with Wind in the Willows or The Joy of Cooking.
35
Try Isaiah, the Gospels, and some other bits. Beautiful poetry, and some excellent moral teaching. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater, just because these hypocrites misuse it. (for the record, I'm an atheist)
28
Ohmygod, this!
When I moved out of my childhood home, I took my copy of "Wind in the Willows" with me and left behind my Bible. There was such a gentle, whimsical, and yet powerful morality in the way the characters were portrayed and interacted with each other. It presented a clear, sensible, and thoroughly English approach to life that just made much more sense to my young mind than the ghastly, violent, and blatantly sexist biblical tales.
The English part with its animals coming to life was what first enchanted me but subsequent rereads as I lived life and studied literature, history, and culture deepened my appreciation and love of the book on multiple levels. I still reread it every once in a while. I did eventually retrieve my Bible but only because of its importance in history and premodern culture and to use as reference, most recently to document scriptures in my comments about the Christian hypocrisy of supporting GOP policies and, most importantly, the anti-Jesus that is Trump.
19
Good and decent people of faith don‘t politicize religion. It’s almost a sure bet that those who use religion to justify their politics are also hypocrites. In fact, hypocrisy fits their mindset of using ignorance to deflect reasoning.
41
If we stop teaching children religion, any religion, and only teach morals and ethics on a secular basis, the world would be a better place. As adults we can then pick and choose what religion, if any, we wish to practice. We would then not have religious hypocrites, terrorists, subjugation of the masses or even the plain garden variety preachers who make a living out of religion.
62
Ranjan, you said we should stop teaching any religion to children, that they can choose a religion as adults, if they wish. And as children, they only learn ethics and morals which would remove so many of the problems of society: religious hypocrites, terrorists, subjugation.
Point taken, but I will share my own experience.
As a child I was raised in non-conservative Lutheran schools from kindergarten through grade nine. Two of the main teachings of the Lutheran church is 1) you cannot buy your way into heaven or purchase forgiveness of sins; 2) there are sins of omission and commission, meaning what you don't do is as important as what you choose to do.
At the age of 17 my mother told me she worked to pay for my parochial schooling so I would have a solid moral foundation. However, she said as an adult it was up to me to choose whatever I liked. No pressure. I think I was lucky to get the best of both worlds.
3
Amen. We used to have a subject in elementary school “moral science”, non denominational, mostly common sense.
I see this as outside the debate on religious people be extraordinarily hypocritical or deserving of special condemnation. Adults are not welcome to intrude adult sexual needs into the developing sexual identities of adolescents. Adults who cruise this area for their own purposes betray a boundary not theirs to cross.
That said, who can resist the claims of the devout that messages from their gentiles are the spoken truths of their God?
7
We have already seen the dangers of giving individuals undue credibility under their pretense of religious authority. Such a dynamic allowed the Catholic Church to protect child abusers worldwide for decades. Horrific accounts of sexual molestation from rabbis are emerging, too.
It matters not if one talks the talk, only if they walk the walk, of moral living.
20
Well said, Mr Kristof, especially that last sentence.
18
The louder they preach and moralize the more likely they are the worst offenders.
23
I Agree – Sine the 1980’s or before, Christianity has been hijacked by certain people and groups whose world view does not embrace the compassion or teachings of Christ. It is type of tribalism and false cultural nostalgia at work within those communities – America has never been what they think it should be. They are a people full of fear and feel compelled to spread that fear. I appreciate what Nicholas Kristof calls out in his final words. "Roy Moore today is a challenge for those who see themselves as good and decent people of faith: If you find yourself excusing child molestation, then you are driven not by morality or faith, but simply by the emptiest kind of tribalism.”
38
Sorry Ron, but “Christianity”was highjacked long before the 1980s.
But, I guess you think buring of “witches,” forced indoctrination of Native Americans, the KKK and Father Conklin types and other “Christian” atrocities began in the Reagan era.
The fact is that Christianity in ths country has had a very long and checkered history in our country.
In the last few years true morality is going out of style, religion is being twisted into stories people tell themselves to justify their immorality. Reason and truth are not valued above 'win at all costs' for the party. The Republican party has become a cult following of personality. Can't people at least not vote for Moore, even if they can't vote for a Democrat instead? It says so much about the character of the people who support Moore. Shame on them.
18
Nothing will change until we all vote. If every citizen with progressive ideals voted, the red states would shrink to hamlets. In a democracy, people get the kind of government they deserve.
25
Amen, Amen. Shocking numbers of "nice" people don't bother to take advantage of the precious gift our Founders left us. Some grumble "a plague on both your houses", as if THAT solved anything.
Look around the world where people risk, and often LOSE their lives, just fighting to choose their own governments. Some of us don't appreciate how good we have it.
Stop being mentally fat, lazy, indifferent. Think of the world you want to leave for your children.
Sometimes you have to vote for the lesser of two evils, since our electoral system has become so completely corrupted by the entry of Big Money into the process, thanks to Citizens United.
2
Except that gerrymandering is hurting our right to vote.
1
That Harvey Weinstein voted for and supported Democrats is such a specious comparison to Roy Moore. Millions of Americans vote for and support Democrats, and some of them probably do bad things. That's not the same as someone who wants to "represent" all Americans and decide on laws and regulations that will have monumental impact on our lives. I don't have to go to a Weinstein movie but I will have to live under whatever Moore and his mean spirited colleagues vote into law. This kind of false equivalency is why we are in so much trouble as a country.
98
Republican Reagan himself was from Hollywood so it’s not a democrat privilege.
1
Brilliant insight. Thanks.
I have watched the news coverage of Roy Moore and I think it is failing to emphasize that not only was Moore 32 years old, an adult man preying on teenage girls, but he was also an officer of the law, a powerful assistant district attorney working alongside judges and policemen; he had a badge and most likely carried a gun (he still waves one around on stage at his political rallies).
In backwater parts of our nation, police and justice officials hold inordinate power over their citizens. Think back 40 years ago when suspects were routinely beaten in county jail cells throughout the South. Think of the fear that ordinary Americans of color had (and still do) when a police officer pulled over their family car for a traffic violation. Now put yourself in the position of a teenage girl facing up to a guy like Moore. Badge. Gun. Powerful position in the community.
Some Alabamians seem incapable of understanding the power of their own officials when it is bent to evil, some of them have come out with strange manipulations of spiritual verse so as to cast the sin upon the children. So yes, God should sue Roy Moore (and his supporters). But Alabamians also have the wonderful opportunity to act as His servant and use their God-given brains to sort this out in the voting booth. Hear truth and act on it.
The whole country is watching... Maybe God is as well...
65
Thank you for writing an eloquent explanation of the imbalance and abuse of power at work here. I hope this is much more widely read than in this comments section.
10
At one time, folks were innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Today that appears to no longer be the case.
6
Tell that to Roy Moore.
19
"Innocent until proven guilty" is a due-process notion. Due process prohibits governmental overreaching. Voters do not owe anyone due process. They can choose or reject whatever candidate they want, for whatever reason they want. As to Roy Moore, however, we must acknowledge that he could not honestly take the oath of Congressional office, having already announced that he will not uphold the U.S. Constitution, and having already been removed, twice, from elected office for that very reason.
28
Reasonable doubt is a concept used in court cases. It has nothing to do with running for senator.
12
Aside from the Judge Moore issues today, for years I've admonished southern 'evangelicals' on blogs to read and follow Gospel and Epistle more than rote knowledge but with understanding. People don't get Christian values and principles online and on air and apparently not in the pews, bible study classes or quoting neighbors or bible 'experts'. I've railed against reprobate and cultish misuse of Christian 'knowledge of the good' in favor of actual scripture--love God and love your neighbor (no restrictions). It may date earlier than my retirement in 2010, my going online, but not understanding and misusing Christian principles is akin to calling Middle East barbarians and criminals "radical Islamists".
Current theology is like sectarianism run amok justifying all sorts of Moore-like injustices and sins as Christian. As a lay church official, I know from scripture Gospel tells us to separate religion and government, love God but not 'filthy lucre', live the Christian 'Way' and avoid the misinterpretations of the Sadducees and Pharisees. This is not anti-Semitic, anti-Catholic, anti-Muslim, anti-women or anti-Muslim, but pro-Gospel. I fault the pastors who prefer Pentateuch, Psalms and Proverbs to teaching Gospel daily. Habits of thought, history, traditions, and cult interpretations are hard to break but current Christian pastors must repent, atone and change to teaching Gospel to avoid ongoing negativity, devolution of scripture and failure of American government.
7
Imagine if Roy Moore had displayed the Ten Amendments (the Bill of Rights) in his courtroom instead of the Ten Commandments.
Oh wait. He doesn't really believe in those either.
36
Dear Good People of Alabama,
I grew up in North Carolina in the 1980s. I had to suffer the international embarrassment known as Senator Jesse Helms.
I never thought this would be possible. But Roy Moore makes Mr. Helms look like an honorable statesman.
20
Defenders of Moore claim the charges are just a fraudulent WaPo-Democratic fabrication. If that were true and these charges were a fabrication why are they so relatively modest in their charges about Moore's behavior. The accusations still constitute child-abuse but surely a serious fraudulent effort to defame him would have claimed that he had engaged in far more explicit and multi-partner violations. I find the accusers' claims just 'mild' enough to be completely plausible.
12
And I find the timing, just close enough to the election to make it impossible to change candidates, just coincidental enough to believe that they are purely political.
Further, what ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? Dose that only apply to those whose politics one agrees with?
2
Hey, mike cody, Moore isn't charged with a crime and he's not being tried. People are completely free to judge him.
1
What we are looking at in the role that Christianity plays in our politics are really social class differences. Lower class people, who are not well educated, need clear rules, literal meaning, and low cognitive complexity. They'll go for appearance over reality any day. Roy Moore is a poster boy for that world view. This, of course, is the real Republican base since they never catch on that Republicans only talk bad about gay people while cutting taxes for rich people.
19
From the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7)
Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
One of the reasons I returned to atheism was the absence of practice in too many Christians, and the blamefest, as well as the absence of any evidence that here on earth hypocrites don't succeed because of, not in spite of, their hypocrisy.
Love, sharing, and working together to solve problems is religion-neutral; people who take life seriously and try to do their best achieve contentment, which in my lexicon is better than happiness (those momentary screams you can't get away from on TV).
25
One of his responses is that he never dated underaged girls without their mother's consent.
That is a very unchristian evasion - just as his fellow Alabamian did at congressional hearings - since "dating" and "assault" are two separate issues
19
If you have to ask the mother if you can date her daughter, you're too old and she's too young. The ultimate in irony.
29
Your grandfather didn't run for the US senate, did he?
The inconsistent, incongruent message and behaviours of at least some Evangelicals, I find stunning and disappointing. And it so hurts most Christians who try to be consistent and live with integrity. There is NO place for sexual misconduct between and adult and a child.
25
“Some” evangelicals?
Sorry Barbara, you have it wrong....
....it is far too many evangelicals who have corrupted Christianity.
I freely admit to being a consistent supporter of you, Mr. Kristof, which may negate my comments to some people. So be it.
I have yet to hear any media or political pundit or congress person simply say, "If Roy Moore is guilty, he should be in prison!" Forget whether public opinion is for or against him and above all, do not use "faith" as a sufficient political point of view.
As for his defense being based on "faith", I look forward to a time when "faith" is irrelevant and "fact" dominate human thought and action. I will not discuss or argue with anyone whose sole foundation is "faith". "Faith" is mere wishful thinking, hope for a better outcome, or an excuse for ignorance of fact.
28
Elnes's quote, “I’ve never understood why certain Christians are so eager to turn the United States into a Christian country when their time would be so much better spent turning their churches into Christian churches,” belongs in the pantheon with the words of Mark Twain, Dr. Johnson, Justice Holmes, and Sinclair Lewis.
85
"If you find yourself excusing child molestation, then you are driven not by morality or faith, but simply by the emptiest kind of tribalism." A powerful conclusion. It is very distressing - very disturbing - that tribalism over rules morality, faith, science, economic math, racial and sexual tolerance, etc. The cultic worship of Fox and Limbaugh and tribal loyalty to the GOP has permitted otherwise "nice" middle class people to excuse molestation or groping, support carbon expansion rather than act on our warming globe, support a tax plan for the wealthy, mistreat other races and sexual orientations, dismiss millions needing health insurance, etc.
45
I agree that Roy Moore is all kind of bad guy, but are we sure he's guilty of these crimes against children? There's a moral panic going on, and rational people should demand evidence before anyone gets pilloried in the press, no matter how attractive the target is. Other than some underspecified "accusations' from long ago, I haven't read anything that amounts to "revelations."
5
Please read the Washington Post article. The accusations were very specific and were backed up by 30 people.
1
There were many witnesses, and he admitted just yesterday to "dating" teenagers when he was in his early 30s. He met one 17 year old in her high school civics class. This is factual. This is disgusting.
Stop excusing pedophilia. He was grooming a vulnerable 14 year old and had no illusions about her age. He asked her about school; he enticed her to his home; and certainly her mother has supported her daughter's story as have other witnesses from the time.
This was illegal.
2
Excuse me? Testimony is evidence. There are four women, all Trump supporters and all unknown to one another. They have allowed their names and pictures to be used in spite of the fact that people like you will call their truthfulness and reputations into question.
And in AL, where some of those nuts are liable to shoot their windows out in the name of Jesus.
Maybe you need to read new things.
As awful as it is to learn that one person has abused another (or several), it's tremendously satisfying when someone who has gained from a loud and public form of false piety is exposed as a fraud.
35
Hypocrisy was not invented by the right wing, but they've certainly made it into an art form. There are no civil laws against hypocrisy. Thus we are left with a belief that they will occupy a special place in Hates when they leave this earth. The image in my mind sort of plays out like that Bud Light commercial where the smug guy with the holier-than-thou attitude gets a personal tour of the pit of doom. Dilly dilly!
12
The irony is that the Bible contains numerous warnings against "hypocrites", and says they can be spotted because they talk about how religious and moral they are. But I guess the evangelicals who support Mr. Moore never read that part.
3
I agree with your assessment in general except where you make politicians and evangelicals equal in moral behavior or moralizing about our behavior. The problem is - evangelicals want to be politicians so they subject themselves to greater scrutiny, then self-combust when caught red-handed as the hypocrites they are. And, how about the most hated group in the world getting hugs - atheists?
7
I'd like to remind Mr. Kristof that Republican voters picked Roy Moore to be their Senate candidate. Moore, much like Donald Trump, is not an enigmatic or complex man. His message is clear and his history is well known and lengthy. Alabama voters like him, and Trump, BECAUSE they are venal, lying thugs, not in spite of those things. Trump and Moore are symptoms, not causes, of a malignant rot at the heart of present Republicanism.
79
Thank you, Mr. Page. Your analysis is clear, concise and SO TRUE! As a Republican myself I am embarrassed by people like Trump, Moore and the many other slimy creatures (Bannon, Arpaio, Flynn?) soiling the once-proud party of Abraham Lincoln.
1
If as Moore says this allegation is false then he ought to higher a bevy of high powered lawyers and sue the paper for publishing a story defaming his character. But if it is true and only Moore and the woman know what is so,then Moore has no chance to win because it is not defamation if it is true. I believe she is telling the truth. Why she came out with this story now after 40 years only she can answer and if it did happen and it likely did happen than Moore is toast.
6
Jack rothstein,
She did not come out with the story. There are 4 women who are telling a tale of him pursuing them as teenagers. The reporter's heard stories about Mr Moore's attraction to and pursuit of teen girls when he was Assistant DA. They went looking for these girls and found 4 women. Then they interviewed them multiple times eventually convincing them that the story should be made public. That is how this story came to be told in the Washington Post. Look it up and read the original report it is done very well and is very believable. The main girl who was 14 at the time is also a republican who has voted republican for years and voted for Trump. I think the other three are republicans as well I do not recall if the article said so. None of them have anything to gain by this and a lot to lose if you consider how depraved the right wing press is in this country.
16
Magic....you are preaching to the choir. I agree with you. My point in the comment above is about defamation. If the story is fake as Moore has alleged concerning the 14 year old then he ought to sue the Post for publishing a defaming portrait of his character. If however the story is true and I believe it is then suing would simply add fuel to the flame. He is not suing. He has not to my knowledge hired an attorney to file a law suit. Therefore the story is true. If I was in Moore's shoes and was innocent and did nothing wrong I would immediately sue for defamation. Moore ought to simply go away.
2
Many evangelists have been brought down by sex. While they preach about that sex is for marriage and divorce is the worse sin, they have been caught exploiting their young parishioners or married women. An evangelist in Denver who railed against homosexuality was caught soliciting sex with a male prostitute. Some clergy of every persuasion are also guilty of not practicing what they preach.
The GOP claim to be the family values morality party but they see no problem with an immoral boor as their president. Yes, Democrats are just as guilty as GOPs in exploiting their positions for sex, but they don't brag about being holier than thou. Moore is repeating what Trump says when he is accused, "Those are vicious lies." Did I miss him saying "fake news"?
Using Mary and Joseph as an example shows total ignorance of the Bible. She was already pregnant with Jesus when Joseph married her so no sex was involved on his part. It's almost funny that anyone would come up with such a pathetic excuse. Isn't that insulting Jesus? Not very Christian in my book.
20
With friends like Moore, Jesus doesn't need any enemies!
I love the quote (which bears repeating here) from Omaha's Rev. Eric Elnes: “Blazing with self-righteous indignation toward others is often what people use to hide their own sins in the shadows. This is probably why Jesus’ biggest problem — by far — was with the self-righteous. When it came to those whom society cast away as ‘sinners,’ Jesus was repeatedly gentle, gracious, encouraging, and forgiving, but he continually castigated the self-righteous.
“I’ve never understood why certain Christians are so eager to turn the United States into a Christian country when their time would be so much better spent turning their churches into Christian churches.”
20
Johnathan. And IF the accusations are true then Moore is a sinner and as such would be treated by Jesus as you describe.
Thus the ever present logistical problem of Xtianity. The sinner is also the one to garner the most sympathy...as we are all sinners...and round and round it goes. So he sinned, we all sin, and besides Moore (like Trump) is but an instrument of this God...and those instruments are often men with faults...forgive them...hate the sin not the sinner, etc,etc...
That's why these guys - look to Baker as an example - always make comebacks. All they need do is perform the rituals, which dont always include admission of sin, look sad, have an epiphany, and wham! Back on the circuit.
I'm a United Methodist minister. When I first read this, I felt as if I had just fallen out of tree. This can't be happening. This is another example of what I call Trumpianity--a, uh, perverse version of true, Christ-like Christianity, in which Trump supporters will go to the most extreme lengths imaginable to defend or justify the actions and language of Donald Trump. This is a copycat version of that.
23
"Trumpianity"
I'm love this term, says it all. I'm stealing it! (but will give credit to Paul the Methodist minister in the Times comments section)
1
Jim Ziegler defends Moore saying he is as "clean as a hound's tooth.". Any veterinarian will tell you that a hound, or dog, has a lot a infectious bacteria on their teeth and if you are bitten, clean the wound quickly and thoroughly. It's kinda like what we are now doing now with the likes of moore, O'Reilly, and Weinstein. We are cleaning them out of our society and making it possible for others to start the healing process.
7
You should have chosen another comparison. Any doctor, MD or DVM, will tell you that it's more likely that a human bite will become infected than a bite by a dog. Any doctor will tell you the bite from a human is likely to be more serious than a bite by a dog (or cat). See below from National Institutes of Health:
"On average, a cat or dog bite wound contains 2–5 different species of bacteria (32, 35, 36)."
"Streptococci can be isolated from 50% of human bite wounds, Staphylococcus aureus from 40%, and Eikenella corrodens from 30%. It is commonly accepted that the pathogen most often leading to infection is E. corrodens, a Gram-negative microaerophilic bacillus (30, 32). Human bites can transmit HBV, HCV, and HIV; post-exposure prophylaxis should be considered in every case (16)."
2
Tough call-but well written. Strong evidence suggest BC exposed himself to adult women invited to his presence. I think I am a progressive, and a father of a teenage daughter, but in gloating and recoiling to this accusation, am I a just another tribal hypocrite?
2
This is really something. Moore’s apologists twist themselves into pretzels with what can only be considered daffy comments in defense of some rather sordid accusations. They don’t even deny them, just make light of them. Shame is not anywhere in sight. It isn’t as though he is so singularly deserving, he was thrown off the court twice!
Forget about hypocrisy, this is more an example of lunacy.
I supported Clinton and though the case against him was politically motivated, I would have accepted a Gore presidency. I think I was not alone in that opinion. This is not the same.
8
Is this the new Republican strategy? First Trump denies saying what he said to Myeshia Johnson, then he seeks to have those same words blessed by rallying John Kelly to his defense to explain what he really meant. Now we see the ante upped with actions, not just words-- Moore first denying he did it, then seeking refuge in the Bible to excuse the behavior he’s accused of. Do they all think we are that stupid? Or are they just drunk on how far they’ve gotten with the con?
13
I grew up in conservative Christian rural Appalachia. I'd like to be able to say that those who are defending Moore represent a distinct few in the Evangelical community but they have become the rule rather than the exception. During my lifetime I have seen conservative Christians go from focusing on getting their lives right in order to meet God but along the way, they decided to forsake God for the promise of political power. In reading the New Testament, you can't escape the scorn and opprobrium that Jesus aims at hypocrites. Matthew 7:15-23 describes how you will know a tree by its fruit. The fruit from Moore and his apologists' trees are rotten. They should consider their behavior if they truly believe they will face God to answer for their actions. Like Jesus said, "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.’"
22
The allegations against Moore have the ring of truth to me. What troubles me is the timing of their publication. No doubt in my mind that the victims were coached on that aspect. Shouldn't Alabamans have been noticed on this earlier, and been given the opportunity to address this ballot contamination themselves? Or did someone decide they are all "deplorables" By the way, Nicholas, your column on How to reduce Shootings should be emailed to every elected official in the country. Pulitzer Prize quality.
What are you talking about? Have you read the story? They were kids, and they didn't come forward. Nobody coached them; a reporter heard rumors, got in touch with them women, convinced them that it was time to come forward and they did.
And any Alabaman who votes for Roy Moore is about as deplorable as it gets.
1
I know the Moore case is grist for progressive mills. He may be guilty. I don't know. And neither does Nick, the commentariat, media & democrats. I'm not saying she is lying. It could be true, half remembered events, or she could be making it up in whole or part.
We're having a witch hunt targeting powerful white men who may be sexual predators. Fine, but how do you defend yourself against an accusation from 38 years ago?
Barring an admission by Moore, is there any way to prove what the woman says. The fact she didn't bring charges against Moore is troubling. As is the fact she says she went with him several times.
We do have the rule of law that says innocent until proven guilty. We should follow that. Public accusations made years later that can't be proved are simply a Rorschach Test for beliefs & feelings.
We need a statute of limitations for sexual predation. Why? If we have an acting predator it may compel victims to bring charges now before the predator can do more damage, knowing they can't later. Waiting 38 years simply means you can't prove your case.
Many teen girls in my school looked about 5 years older than the boys. Sometimes they got crushes on teachers or older men. Sometimes they acted. The most beautiful girl I knew dated a man when she was 16.
Doesn't excuse Moore if he did it, but post pubescent girls can be very attractive & don't resemble children. Older men being attracted to young girls -- DNA.
3
So?
Then the adult male has a serious responsibility to checking ID's and with the parents. What separates humans from animals, is not giving into every impulse.
Males aren't likely to get physically threatened or intimidated because it's unlikely a female is going to have the ability to physically overpower him.
Even in the case of her trying to seduce HIM, he can reject. He can escape.
And false accusations are very difficult to make stick.
Look at what happens when there are legit accusations.
6
I'm sorry, in this case he knew VERY well how old she was. Her family was involved in family court proceedings at the time. She told people AT THE TIME what had happened. As to bringing charges -- she was 14, he shortly thereafter became a newly elected DA. Why would she or any of the adults responsible for her wellbeing suggest she bring charges given the imbalance of power. Please learn something about the psychology of creepy men and vulnerable children.
13
There is a statute of limitations for sexual predation; Moore cannot face charges for this assault.
Otherwise, you sound like my abuser when he made excuses for molesting me when beginning when I was 11.
You're boys will be boys, it's in the DNA excuse is is just that, an excuse to look the other, to write off criminal behavior as normal and acceptable because some men can''t be bothered to control themselves.
Bravo! As a practicing Christian, I couldn't agree more with Bruni's disgust with these men. While, in fairness, there are good people in the Republican party, I'm starting to think the gospel should be required reading for those who join it. Love, compassion, acceptance, honesty, concern for the poor, humility, and care for children is what I read in Jesus' gospel. And if you want to go all Old Testament on people, there's that bit about welcoming the alien in your land...
7
I am from Alabama and those people there are going to vote for Roy Moore. What is troubling for me is that Moore's supporters use the Bible to justify his inappropriate and illegal relationships with children. When I lived there, the preacher of the church where I attended in Monroeville, Alabama stood up and said that he agreed with Roy Moore on his views of homosexuality. Well, I stopped attending that church and I moved out of the state of Alabama and I am happy that I did so.
24
It's a mistake to think evangelicals/conservatives actually care about behavior. They don't.
They are a tribe at war with a hated enemy - that enemy being the rest of us.
They want to win, to dominate, to gain power.
24
You could make the same statement and be just as true: "It's a mistake to think atheists/liberals actually care about behavior. They don't."
Please don't tell me you actually believe that only one party wants to win, to dominate, to gain power. If you do, please read Donna Brazile's new book.
I imagine Moore feels he has been forgiven so in his mind these tragic events never occurred. But the notion that one can be forgiven for their sins is a fatal flaw of too many religious beliefs and Moore is the logical outcome of such dogma. We'd all be a lot better off if we simply adhere to the Golden Rule and leave our arrogant judgment of others behind.
3
Isn’t it well known by now that the more an Evangelical Christian professes their righteousness, the more corrupt they are likely to be? Just covering up crimes with a lot of phony God talk. The best response to this situation is for Democrats to stop dithering and fearing that Moore is likely to win anyway and put up an all-out fight to get Doug Jones elected. The timidity of the Democrats is almost as infuriating as the moral corruption of Republicans is revolting.
6
Thank you for this article. Roy Moore is a shameful excuse for a human being.
It is clear that he has left a permanent scar on this woman. Not only should he
not run for Senate he should be banned from running by the Republican party.
How can he claim to be a Christian when he has done something like this. The
people of Alabama and this nation deserve better.
5
Conservative evangelical Christians have taken stands that oppress people and cause pain. Their excursions into politics and legal maneuvering to foist their beliefs on other people are offensive and inconsistent both with our body of law and with Christian principles. They are enabling institutionalized bigotry and supporting moral turpitude through the political candidates they support. They are alienating more and more people, making a mockery of the very term "evangelical." They are not being persecuted, they are being held accountable. Nothing illuminates this better than the twisted support they have afforded Roy Moore. His guilt or innocence of the charges made against him have become far less relevant than the morally bankrupt statements given in his defense by evangelical Christians.
8
I've had friends who promoted candidates based on their religious belief that this or that candidate is a religiously sanctioned vote. I always say that God doesn't belong to a political party. Additionally, the first commandment is about this too, "I am the Lord God" means to me that only God is God, and no human speaks for him. Politicians are human, and can only guess God's will, none have a hotline to him.
With that in mind, I believe Judge Moore demonstrates that he is using God to try to promote his own will. I don't think that makes an appropriate elected official, or judge.
3
Looks like someone pulled open the door of Roy Moore's moral crypt. He is the very picture of a self-righteous little banty rooster, pulling out his little pistol at his rally, in his too small cowboy hat, hollering about Sin. Let's wait and see. Who would ruin their reputation for the likes of him unless they wanted him erased from their memories?
Waiting for someone to pop the cork on Texas Lt Gov Dan Patrick. I guess he changed his name once he filed for bankruptcy. He is another middle aged man full of sound and holy hell fury who seems like he is sitting on a pile of Krazy with all that bathroom business he keeps bringing up. Got to wonder why.
19
Mr. Trump and Mr. Moore are the types of people who make me ardently pray there is a heaven and a hell. One hopes their days of reckoning will come.
10
Mitt Romney has called Roy Moore "unfit for office". Where have we heard that before. In today's political claim, as President Trump has proven, morality has little to do with electability.
16
According to the dictionary, a moor is a wasteland. This Moore is a wasteland of the human soul.
He thinks there's a Hell. While I don't, but if he's right he's destined to roast in it.
10
"... cast the first stone." And the U.S.A. continues throwing stones worldwide, still not aware of their "actions," personal or communal.
Yes, the 'beast' has always been inside the gates and at present is enjoying a star moment in these (un) united states. Just slowly read down the list of the "humans in high places of power (over)" and see/feel what you experience. It probably will be in contradiction to all the GOOD you have garnered thus far in your lives.
No, I'm not being critical, "preachery" or otherwise, just aware, and observant as a person of human intelligence.
2
I don't mean to make light of the accusations, but it's troubling that the first two paragraphs of Mr. Kristof's column, detailing Moore's outrageous beliefs, have not been enough to keep him from being a viable candidate for the US Senate. For the people who accepted all that, it's hard to see that this event thirty years ago (I'm trying to think of it from their position) will matter, particularly, since it comes out in a newspaper they view as one of the mouths of Satan.
4
It not only won't matter to them, it will give them a chance to "forgive" him, and to an evangelical that's more fun than sex.
But, but...what if the "devastating account" is completely false? Aren't there some things about the story that seem strange? No police report nor civil suit filed? The girl supposedly doesn't mention this to her mom until, what,15 years later in the mid-1990's, and the mom does nothing? Why is the accuser willing to go public with her story NOW? It takes the Post looking for dirt to bring it out? What did they say to her to get the story? None of this seems odd, Nicholas?
Now, I would not be shocked if turns out to be all true, but if all it takes is the allegation of an event that may or may not have taken place almost 40 years ago to bring someone down, isn't that a bit unsettling? He is denying her accusations, after all. Aren't we supposed to give the accused the benefit of the doubt?
3
The delay in reporting is not odd at all. What we know is the the vast majority of sexual asssult and abuse is not reported- ever. It is extremely common for children to not report sexual abuse until much later.
If you recall, sexual assault and abuse victims of Catholic priests, for example. The victims are adults today. They did not report as children for many reasons. Those who did report were often ignored, not believed or forced to cover it up.
10
".what if the "devastating account" is completely false? "
Personally I think the stupidity exposed in his quotes should be enough to disqualify him. He thinks his god killed innocent people on 9/11 because the deity was mad at the government. He is unaware of the Constitutional ban on religious tests. I think the parties should require candidates to take intelligence tests before giving somebody their nomination -- they'd save themselves a lot of grief and humiliation later on.
Why is "benefit of the doubt" always trotted out when sexual.abuse/assault/harassment is the issue? Have you paid attention at all to the abuses in the Catholic Church? Many victims kept silent, and decades passed, before the abuses came to light? How much credibility do you think law enforcement would have given to a 14-yr-old claiming sexual assault against an assistant D.A? Shame.
In your email teaser you ask why "Christians would support child abusers." The answer is straightforward. There are six whole chapters in their Bible on how to build a proper temple and prepare burnt offerings but not one single line on child abuse. There are only statements of what to do to children, none on what to do for them (other than to bring them to Jesus and that may be considered a negative).
Children, like women, in the bible are property, plain and simple.
7
"Sadly, some of the “family values” conservatives now don’t seem to care about either private or public morality."
Now?! When have self-declared "family values" conservative politicians and activists ever demonstrated caring about private or public morality if it interfered with their pursuit of power?
Change the names and a few details and this column could have been written any time in the last 40 years. You may have written a few. I feel like I've read a couple of hundred.
Never read one that made a bit of difference to the people willing to use religion to excuse evil.
5
As John Adams said "Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects." Moore if you listen to him is trying to establish his own brand of the latest and greatest monotheism on the rest of us.
6
Oh, for heaven's sake, this very lot voted in Trump, so nothing staggering or surprising at all that so-called 'family values' types would make excuses however flimsy or illogical to wash away sins of favored sons. Remember Ms Palin and her brood and her unwed pregnant teen daughter - not a single family-values type or Christian conservative or evangelical made it an issue. But, then again, it's never been about 'family values' at all. . . .
14
Actually, the Bible does indicate the age of the Virgin Mary. She owned her own house, traveled great distances by herself, and was capable of great poetry. She was probably much older than the teenager preferred by most Christians.
1
Are these more of the conservatives whose concerns we should be listening to?
3
she works in mysterious way mr k, moor has been served, the civil case is under way.
2
God was disappointed with his guy Roy a long time before these allegations hit the airwaves and not just because, if they are true, God already knew!
When Roy Moore put his hand on his bible to to take the oath of office for the state supreme court position for the second time, he vowed before God and all the citizens of Alabama to adhere to the US constitution. But he knew (and of course his supporters knew) that he was lying. He had already shown in his first time on that court that he would not put the US constitution first. He showed this shameful conduct in his refusal to respect US Supreme court decisions. There is just no excuse that he could offer for that second oath that would avoid God's wrath - He knew deep in his heart that he would never choose the constitution over his distorted, personal religious interpretations. Lying with his hand on the bible? Musta annoyed the power above.
Ironically, it did NOT bother the Senate leadership. Kinda telling, isn't it?
6
One one of your best. Really couldn’t have said it better.
4
These Christians so imbued with Evangelical fervor would follow to the letter such retrograde and tribal teachings regarding women's gagged submission, and surely exploit them to get off scot-free counting on an instilled conspiracy of silence: 1 Corinthians 14:34 "Women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not allowed to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says." And 1 Corinthians 14:35 "But if they want to learn anything, they should ask their husbands at home. For it is improper for a woman to speak in the church."
1
St Paul was an educated man, spoke Greek, and was a Roman citizen. But he still could not overcome the bias against women that was common in his time.
Even his Greek learning reinforced it, as the Greeks were probably even more misogynistic than the Romans and Hebrews.
We see in our own time that education does not necessarily overcome bias, unless accompanied by an open mind and an open heart.
2
Mr. Kristof concludes with with a conditional statement about tolerating this behavior and tribalism. Doesn’t that let us good readers off the hook? “I certainly do not tolerate such behavior!”
The fact is that we do tolerate it. We do not want to prejudge anyone. We vote for it. We elect it to the Presidency. We detach perversion from policy judgement and claim it is “personal.” We wonder what it is like to grab and grope without consequence. We accept the need to carry on in a world where perverts have such power. We keep our outrage to ourselves as we read columns like this. This keeps us from doing anything.
This is America today. Roy Moore will be elected, will join his peers in the Senate, and will feel right at home. Mr. Kristof will write more moving columns. ... and God will chuckle since we are getting exactly what we deserve for embracing evil, putting it up on a pedestal, and doing nothing about it.
4
We are not keeping our outrage to ourselves ANYMORE!
2
Luke 18:9-14 is relevant here, Nicholas. I personally am an atheist - let's say agnostic - but I have read the Bible cover to cover and I have a great deal of respect for the totality of the wisdom inside it.
The reason I have no respect for "evangelical" Christians is that they do not understand or even care about the totality of the wisdom in the Bible - they seek only to pull out sound bites that, taken out of context, appear to support their own agendas. Just the term "evangelical" Christian is an example of such dishonesty, since evangelism is part of all Christians' experience and is not restricted to the conservative Christian right. But the way these "evangelicals" operate is to interpret Christianity in their own self-serving way and defining anyone who doesn't agree with them as being un-Christian.
I for one have no interest in hugging an evangelical.
7
I think it is a very big mistake for evangelicals to support candidates of very questionable behavior issues just because the candidate tics off the boxes in evangelical's pet projects; like getting a judge and a few low key laws changed.
In particular, evangelicals should not be worshiping a political party. This is idolatry. Their idol demands them to sacrifice more and more, and it would seem that it has reached a tenor where they sacrifice even their own integrity.
4
Moore's actions and any defense of them are represhensible. But the claim that Mary was a young teenager is widely accepted among Christian scholars. The Bible does say that she was "betrothed" to Joseph, and the age at which girls were commonly married in the Hebrew culture of the time was between 12-16 years of age.
" the claim that Mary was a young teenager is widely accepted among Christian scholars. "
I run a (mainstream) church library and I have never heard of such a discussion. Speculating about information missing in the Bible is rather futile, and can't be used to support a theological argument, although Ignatius Loyola said it could he an aid to worship.
If we're believing the Bible here, she was also a virgin, so nobody was having sex with her.
1
I was once told by a pastor in Colorado that there were only two reasons for a person not to be a Christian. 1. They had never met a Christian. 2. They had met a Christian.
I believe he was on to something.
6
The words "Christian" and "Conservative" have lost their meaning.
I was raised as both. The thinking was pretty straightforward.
Christian: Compassion for others. Charity. Forgiveness. All are welcome. Fairness. Love...
Conservative: Financial responsibility, Preserving the earth, Careful and thoughtful behavior, Self reliance, saving things vs destroying them, Saving....
Now, a Christian Conservative is redefined as a bigot who endorses wars against the "different" and promotes subsidies to the rich at the expense of the poor.
The names, these words have been kidnapped. I want them back, but fear it is way too late.
10
Blame the NY Times. There are numerous Christian denominations, most of them of good reputation, but the Times only pays attention to the evangelicals who get in scandals or deal in hatred.
With due respect for Evangelical Christians who live decent, honest, exemplary lives, it's worth pointing out that Evangelical Christian churches in the southern states supported both slavery and Jim Crow. Historians have commented that lynchings were attended by the same people who attended church services. As they vote in large numbers for a judge who disobeyed Federal court orders and proudly displayed his loyalty to the cause of carrying firearms and the Ten Commandments, evidently what matters to Moore's supporters is that he is not a Democrat, rather than that he abused under-age girls. Do they really love their neighbors (in this case, the women who were abused by Moore) as themselves, or even as their daughters or sisters?
5
Relationships (generally involuntary) between older men and very young women were common back in biblical times and no doubt accepted by the people who composed the various parts of the bible. Fundamentalists essentially endorse the morality of 500 B.C.
4
Look at the picture of Roy Moore: he's what J.R. Ewing would have looked like if he had been played by Danny DeVito (apologies to DeVito!).
Seriously, stop exhorting Moore to pay attention to the Ten Commandments. Each of those "commandments" is either immoral, amoral, or a simple matter of common sense. Instead, how about hoping that people running for Senate would be ethical? I.e., like people who put humanity and reason first, and superstition and make-believe last.
Moore's problem (among other things) is not that he isn't religious enough; it's that he's too "religious."
2
There isn't a word against gays in the four gospels. Jesus was far more concerned with greed, especially among the priesthood.
Which brings me to the "prosperity gospel". Apparently, these christians don't read the bible.
3
Yet another powerful man bearing "charisma" accused of using that power for seduction. It's been going on for millennia and if we want women to share power with us men, it needs to stop. No, I don't believe this is a game being played by Democrats... it's the latest tabloid-esque event and is part of the American Trump Period.
Resign, cowboy.
3
Some of 'The Holier than Thou' hypocrites such as Roy Moore and his
defenders, among others, might receive a rude awakening when
they finally meet St. Peter guarding The Pearly Gates. If there're
truly true believers as they claim, they might want to rethink their
position on Roy Moore, not to mention any number of issues, too
numerous to list.
3
Mr. Henry and his ilk cannot have it both ways. If the women are to be prosecuted for waiting to make their allegations; it means that he believes they are true and believes the women are guilty of hiding or abetting criminal behavior by not coming forth sooner. If he doesn't believe their allegations than there is nothing to prosecute unless the Judges wishes to sue them for slander. The women and Judge Moore cannot both be guilty or both be innocent. His position is totally illogical but does show that the accusations have traction even among Judge Moore's supporters.
1
When evangelicals enter the voting booth do they ask themselves how Jesus would vote? Clearly not. Then how do most of them consider themselves Christians when His teachings do not inform their behavior?
3
Nick, I'm not a Bible-thumping Christian, but what little I recall from Scripture tells me the God so beloved of Southern conservatives isn't much into suing, not even the likes of Roy Moore. Smiting, however...
1
Mr. Kristof, God is the ultimate judge of the universe. However, his judgment doesn’t align with our time line. Moore will pay for his sins when he faces his Maker, if not in this world. His greatest sin is to use God’s name to cover up his unacceptable behavior. To me, that is a blasphemy. Moore may not be punished here on this corrupt earth but you can rest assured that our God is a just God. As an evangelical Christian, it’s harder and harder for me to find to a church that doesn’t distort the Bible in this Trump era. A Bible scholar & Moody Church interim pastor, Ed Stetzer wrote in Christian Today last night, “If this is evangelicalism, I am on the wrong team.” Ditto!
4
It wasn't the Republican Candidate who referenced scripture to excuse what the Washington Post participated in accusing him of doing; it was somebody else. With a defender like that, who needs an enemy? Republican Candidate simply stated that what WaPo reported didn't happen. Who knows whether this is like the Duke U La Cross Team smear, or the Rolling Stone Magazine story about things that never happened at a fraternity mansion, or the Massachusetts nursery school people who were wrongly convicted and were only recently released from prison? After the special election, if the Republican looses contest, will Harry Reid and friends just dismiss the smear with the comment, "He didn't win, did he?".
Why is it that I, along with most of the other commenters here, believe the accuser over Roy Moore? In my case it is because sexual assault of a teenager is pretty much in line with what I would expect from someone who has so little tolerance for others. The other reason is that I know how difficult it is to come forward after an assault. A science teacher assaulted me when I was about 14 (I was a practicing Catholic). I was so scared and ashamed I never told my parents or anyone else and I am now 79 years old. I can only hope that the women get justice.
8
What a mess: legalese and lawyers will be duking this out, despite the clarion calls offered by John McCain and Mitt Romney, who are honorable men of substance. The part that amazes is how Roy Moore is a state-level official who has been reprimanded multiple times with respect to the nature of and responsibilities inherent in the posts he has served in. It's not as if he is yet a federal level elective office holder. It's not a direct, simple comparison - but his state-levrel authority is probably on a par (in terms of power or share-of-mind/consciousness, if not financially) with celebrities like Harvey Weinstein and Kevin Spacey. Both of those men's storied and accomplished careers went up in smoke in heretofore unimaginably short periods of time. I don't get Roy Moore's defiance and his willful blindness to the smoking cinders of those careers, which ought to prompt some introspection and humility about his ability to weather this storm. And the elites will be using every trick possible to deligitimate him frm the electoral process b/c he has already deligitimated himself by his behavior.
1
There won't be any lawyers (other than Moore, who shouldn't be one anyway). There is no way that he wants to face these women in a courtroom.
This castigation of Moore's Christian defenders goes after low hanging fruit, but does it really have merit? If one considers the variety of beliefs and practices of Christianity, within and outside of so called Orthodoxy, one is inclined not to assign any meaning to the term in the abstract. Further, in any individual how much is sincere and how much feigned?
In a recent class on the Reformation, the teacher expressed her personal surprise that not one Catholic bishop had sided with Luther. The general run of things is, you don't eat what you like, you like what you eat. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Therefore, expect us to cling to our own demon leaders, who feed us. Early Christian doctrine does not picture God at court suing his detractors. Rather, in his own time, God will pay back the righteousness we manage in this venal world. That's an apocalyptic view, that seems to have its correspondence in the secular view that things will get better and better every day, as long as we keep our reason.
- you can find absolutely anything in the bible you want to justify any
behavior (for good or for evil). (So what good is the bible, anyway?)
- Constitution says innocent until proven guilty
- Often truths are in 'opposites': sanctimonious speech -> evil behavior.
---------------------------------
If this alleged behavior by Moore is true, it's more egregious than usual because he was assistant prosecutor at the time (abusing the power of his office to accomplish these crimes?).
1
As long as our culture teaches—me me me—instead of—we we we—a hierarchy is created that seems to inevitably exploit the vulnerable. Economic or sexual abuse of power both stem from selfishness and arrogance. We certainly have an overabundance of these qualities in our leaders.
2
None of this matters to the voters in Alabama. He is going to win the election and will be welcomed with open arms by the Republicans in the senate once he gets there.
3
God's version of "sue" is a bit more severe than what a pack of lawyers can bring. So when I observe the so-called Christian Right's version of morality, such as that exhibited by Moore and his supporters, I have to wonder if they believe at all.
I'm betting more women may be coming out and telling their stories. Predators rarely stop at just a few victims.
4
I have learned there are "evangelicals" and there are "evangelicals." The umbrella is wide, all to the dismay of the church.
2
Excellent article. Rev. Elnes sounds very wise.
The problems with the press only talking about and reporting on a certain ‘loud’ subset of Evangelicals is that then non Christians come to believe that that is what Christianity is about. There are at least a dozen different denominations and I can assure folks that these hypocritical and hateful loud mouths don’t reflect the rest of us. My Episcopal church is made up of people who voted for every one of the folks in primaries for both parties. Yet we have a non policitcal, loving, generous, fun fellowship. The reason attendance is down isn’t because there is a war on Christianity, it’s because the only Christians in the news are simply horrible and hateful. And to prove their political point, they ignore the teaching of Jesus and the Bible. And their followers never stop to really think about what is going on. I hope the press can let all factions of Christianity and the other religions get exposure so people don’t think the extreme is the entire religion. It isn’t.
Btw, as to Christianity in the schools, let this be a practical message - even if it were to happen (I do want universal values (honestly, hard work, etc but not religion) the question is Who’s Christianity?! I wouldn’t let Moore’s or Falwell’s type any where near my kids. (The other practical reason it is a bad idea? Time. Your really want less time in the day to teach our kids, as we fall farther behind other countries!)
4
If a faith makes a person a better human, basically mot doing to anyone that which said person would want done to him/herself, and ignoring a person”s nonviolent behavior, fantastic!
If it makes someone believe in enforcing personal morality on others, that person does not belong in a free polis, and according, at least to most of the peoples of The Book should be ignored or, if violent, removed - though I PERSONALLY refer removal by kind detention rather than the n thousand year-old tradition of state murder.
What percentage of evangelical Christians voted for Trump? Eighty percent according Pew Research Center data. Let's not confuse the tenets of major religions with the hypocrisy and immorality displayed by so many who claim to be in the tent.
Where are the pastors whose faithful attend church to calling out these hypocrites? It seems to me that more Imams in this country speak out against violence to their fellow human beings than their Christian counterparts.
3
This fits his personality perfectly as someone with a long history of asserting himself above those he perceives as weaker than himself (atheists, moslems, LGBT, woman seeking abortion, Etc.). This accusation if true is just another part of the pattern. What will the Alabama religious pastors say? Will they step up and take a reasonable stand?
1
I love the last quote in this article of Rev Elnes. Also find comfort in the actions of multifaith groups such as Parliament of World Religions who have spoken out on much of the sin spin, and supported positive social action.
This is an important time to focus on the value of living moral and decent lives, and having a government that is derived from and supports that. Organized religions need to be separate from the government and get right with their gods. Purporting that their man-made jive which honors all the deadly sins is the word from above is a lie they need to quit.
2
Yet another convicting piece that should challenge all of us when we lean towards smug self righteousness of our behavior versus another. This is one more heinous example, made worse by the “defenses” of other sanctimonious fools.
All of my adult life I have called myself a Christian. But, at age 62, the public demagoguery and hypocrisy of so called “Christian leaders” in this country has been an existential challenge to my faith. I am not quite sure anymore what I would call myself and where my sense of the sacred will take me.
As far as I can see, the merging of the “Christian right” and the Washington political machine, decades in the making, is the ultimate corruption of a human-centered faith and will forever damage the Gospel in this country, just as the child molestation scandals have damaged the Catholic Church in Europe( and here). I mourn the loss of the prophetic voice of the Church in our country and the capitulation of so many church leaders with the politics of the right, the adandonment of the poor, the drumbeat of a “muscular” military.
We must read different Bibles.
5
It is time for the media to stop using the term "evangelical Christian", as there is no such thing. "Evangelicals" are a political movement, not a religious movement. They are the illegitimate offspring of Reagan and Falwell, who care little for what Christ actually stood for.
What are the two issues that are most important to evangelicals? Abortion and homosexuality, neither of which was addressed by Jesus in his 30+ years on earth. The things that actually mattered to Jesus, the things he talked about, are not things that interest evangelicals. They are what matter most to Christians.
The sad fact is that most churches in our country today are being run as GOP indoctrination centers, not as entities to spread the Gospel of Christ. Pick a random "evangelical" church and go to its Sunday service and you are more likely than not to hear a message that is political or outright hateful than a message about God's love.
What evangelicals preach is mutually exclusive with Christianity, so it past time for the media to stop using a phrase that has become an oxymoron.
6
Well, that explains some things. When I was growing up in the 60s they were called "fundamentalists". I never heard of "evangelicals" until they started meddling in politics. By the way "evangelical" actually means somebody who wants to win converts, which has very little to do with what "evangelicals" do.
3
@Michael F: the phrase "Conservative Old Testament Extremists" comes to mind in place of "Christian Evangelicals."
1
No doubt Mary was indeed a teenager when Joseph married her. And he was most likely old enough to be her father, if not older. Christian iconography over the centuries has unabashedly echoed this universal belief with no hint of scandal. The Old Testament states that when King David was elderly, in order to help keep him warm at night, a young virgin was assigned to occupy his bed with him. The Bible is full of such things. How many of the leading Old Testament figures "went in" to a maidservant (never referred to as a slave)? And "rape" is virtually inexistant: if a man "went in unto" a woman, she was consenting by definition.
1
Poor Roy Moore, taken to task as a hypocrite. But to be fair, there is no evidence that he broke any more than 2 of the 10 commandments. In many sporting endeavors, 80% success is a fine performance and in the U.S. Senate, it would make one an all-star.
1
I keep hearing about how "the Dems" and "the liberals" have to come down off their latte-fueled high horse and try to understand the issues and thinking of Republican and Trump voters. You know, the misunderstood and the left-behind people populating "fly-over country."
But to the extent it includes this kind of deviancy -- including its apologists and enablers -- it has to be rejected and rejected without any compromise or discussion. It is repugnant to civilized people. Thus, there is no room for "understanding," just uncompromising rejection.
5
I find myself wondering what the Republicans vigorously defending Roy Moore would have to say if their 14 year old daughters or sons we being asked out on "dates" by 32 year old men or women? Or would they just ask if the 32 year old was a Republican or a Democrat? Boy, talk about "Identity Politics," Republicans today have it -- swear to God.
5
Agreed about the Rs and identity politics. If anything they took the lead in highlighting our divisions for gain with the Southern Strategy and Fox News.
We have this American creed and melting pot culture to unite us. But now we seem to be in the grip of this awful continually adjusting mechanism that keeps tribal divisiveness on the left and the right balanced against each other, spinning off money, advantage, or a career to some of the people who keep it running.
Perhaps Roy Moore is a perfect example of someone who actively uses tribal touchstones to divide us without taking to heart the salutary purposes associated with the touchstone.
1
"the Bible does not indicate her age."
That's true if you translate the original 'almah' as virgin.
But, if you translate 'almah' as young girl, which is valid, but undermines Christian theology, that is an indication of Mary's age.
Either way, Roy Moore is not exonerated by this.
1
Tribalism is a great word. It's "us versus them" (and our tribe is the best).
I'm with Groucho Marx, and wouldn't be part of a group that would have me as a member.
The religious don't own morality, Even pre-verbal infants know right from wrong, they didn't learn it at church. Almost all of us are moral actors, almost all of the time. That's why only 50,000 (I'm being very inclusive here) Police Officers (of all stripes) can handle 10,000,000+ Los Angelinos.
The reason religions all point to the "golden rule" as their prime moral position (they all do) is because it's part of our genetics. If we didn't see ourselves in others, we'd not be Social Primates.
Social means groups. Groups imply Us Versus Them, out of the gate, so this is from whence that self-righteous Religious fever stems.
1
It is socially acceptable for liberals to mock, stereotype and discriminate against evangelicals because more evangelicals have brought more misery to more Americans than any liberal group ever did, and all because God told them to do it. If anyone deserves to be mocked, stereotyped and discriminated against it is the self-righteous evangelical.
4
If a candidate asks for your vote based on his religion or religious views, just vote for his/her opponent. Quoting Jesus: "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's." Politics and religion should not mix.
13
What an amazing insight from Rev Elnes. From my understanding Jesus was the kindest, gentlest, non judgemental human. It's a pity that people didn't more often role model those qualities.
14
Things are not true because of who said they are true.
Things are not true because of how long they have been true.
Things are not true because they must be true.
Things are true only when they are true.
It is fundamentally to construct a flourishing society, a flourishing world, a flourishing and effective educational establishment on anything except truth. Truth, the kind of truth which is inherently true IN ITSELF and not because of any human perception or ownership of it, this is what is under contention in the United States at this moment. And it is a reckoning long past due.
As Jesus himself said with lonely optimism long ago, "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free."
4
Nicholas Kristof says that he has defended Evangelical Christians but I cannot remember the last time he did so. Christians seem to be an easy and acceptable target for his disdain as are the other editors of the New York Times.
People of faith from the Republican Party are regularly attacked whether it is Mike Pence or Sara Huckabee Sanders to name a few. They are ridiculed probably because of their conservative values on pro-life and traditional marriage viewpoints. These people are sincere in their beliefs and practice their faith proudly. Why should they have to hide their religious feelings even if it is not the popular thing to do. They do not care what others do and are not forcing their beliefs on anyone. These and other people should be able to pray freely without scorn or mockery. They should be respected not ridiculed.
2
Sara Sanders is ridiculed because she lies so well and so frequently. "Thou shalt not bear false witness..."
I live in Indiana. Mike Pence is ridiculed for many reasons, not because he says he's Christian but for things like trying to pass legislation in the middle of the night or trying to start his own state run "news" organization, or effectively taking all power away from the duly elected Secretary of Education because he didn't like that she won.
8
'They do not care what others do and are not forcing their beliefs on anyone'? You have GOT to be kidding, right? Caring what others do and trying to force others to do what they are told to do is the number one biggest thing Christians and Republicans do for crying out loud. Not a day goes by when they are not passing judgement on someone.
SHS is a serial liar, inexpert at it as she is. Pence is a mean, petty man who uses his alleged faith to punish those he hates--he had to walk back his religious freedom stupidity as governor, and he refused to allow a clean needle program.
They're no more Christian than my dog. Sitting in a church doesn't make you a Christian any more than sitting in a garage makes you a car.
What I find more troubling than the actual limited thought process of Mr. Moore is the amount of political support and protection he enjoys. People around him almost surely knew and chose to be silent to further their own ends. Even the "if it's true" caveat, to a Republican person is, if not a blanket endorsement is not quite a sanction, either.
Without that ongoing support system he would be one of those blathering zealots aka crazy person shouting about Jesus to passerby's on a street corner.
4
A lot of hypocrites are serving in Congress and the Senate. I am beginning to think that this is one of the requirements for office. Just look at the Presidency, the perfect image of hypocrisy. Trump defends this behavior. Republican Senators and Congressmen say "If it is true" Moore should step aside. Where are the Republican women who serve in the Congress and Senate on this subject? They are amazingly quiet. Maybe they condone Moore's behavior as well. I am respecting these women less and less. No backbone, even as their gender is speaking loudly and profoundly about sexual assaults that have been taking place in disgusting numbers by men in power including those in the Congress and the Senate. Speak up you elected Republican women!
10
Trump's bragging about coming on to women didn't hurt him enough to cost him the election. What's to make you think it will slow down Moore?
What does lie in Moore's future are these accusations leveled against him. They will never go away. People will look at him and point: innocent or guilty.
I hope he is denied a seat in Congress just as I hope Trump is thrown from office. I'm not holding my breath but I can hope.
9
Nicholas,
I respect your continued backing of Evangelical Christians.
That said.
Keep them out of my life and away from my/our Gov.
Your dealings and acquaintance with those followers are a night and day difference to what I see and hear and deal with on my daily basis.
While I have no doubt there are a many good and generous Xian's they seem to be few and far between in my neck of the woods.
Maybe when those more Christ like speak up and out, such as you do, then maybe things will change and behavior towards them too will change.
Until then, this Moore character exemplifies what and who American Evangelical Christians are in many of the worlds eye.
They belong nowhere near our secular Gov.
11
Dante was not kind to the self-righteous either. I saw Anita Hill on a TV show yesterday. When asked if she thought today represented a new era in the fight against sexual harassment, sexual assault and sexual abuse of women, she said "yes." She also said she thought a primary reason why the era did not start in 1991 after the widely riveting Clarence Thomas hearings was her race. Imagine if the female accusers of Roy Moore were not white.
11
Politicians who publicly demonstrate an inordinate, creepy level of judgmental interest in intruding under the blanket into other people's sex lives always seem to be just one pull of their own blanket away from exposure of something worse. Its really just a matter of waiting for it to happen, but this is so cliche it seems like a cartoon villain.
8
I have friends and family here, in Alabama, who are conservative, evangelical Christians. I love them, but I can no longer tolerate the beliefs their churches have come to hold. They have abandoned their place in the world's religions to grab flagrantly for political power. In doing so they have embraced and caused to be elected people who espouse bigotry, misogyny, greed, a callous indifference for human welfare, and an irresponsible disregard for the environment. Even that pales, though, beside their justifications of Roy Moore.
Since the allegations of illegal sexual activity with a minor and liaisons with teenage girls, evangelicals have continued to support his candidacy by comparing his actions to Joseph and Mary, by demonizing the women who made the allegations, and by trivializing his behavior even if it did occur. They admire him for carrying a pistol, for defying the law he swore to uphold, and for railing against those whose sexuality, religion, nationality and race differ from his own.
Evangelicals are losing any chance of portraying the goodness of their beliefs to anyone outside their narrow circle, and are allying themselves with elements of our society that are least representative of the tolerance and magnanimity they claim to hold dear. They especially have created a large gap between themselves and young people.
If you are an evangelical, stop. Reflect on what the true goals of your Christianity are. They should not include political power.
19
Years ago, many could accept the differences between the basic ideologies of progressives and conservatives as matters of opinion. Most people could, at certain level, understand where the other party was coming from.
But now, the GOP's acceptance of sexual predators, rejection of evidence and facts that run contrary to the party and its politicians, bigotry, misogyny, rejection of reasonable gun laws despite repeated carnage, and rejection of decency in politics is no longer a matter of an level of acceptance or reconciliation. The GOP is now openly becoming something, that, in the past, decent people would never want to be guilty of association.
I realize that most GOP voters do not care. However, over time, decency, honor, and honesty tend to prevail in civilized societies and the GOP is making their bed that most people will not forget.
8
So this is another wonderful column by Mr. Kristof, which I assume most of his readers get. I certainly do. But my question is this... how do we get the voters of Alabama to read this. If the chatter from the political experts (TV talking heads) are correct - it's much more important that the voters see this. Roy Moore isn't going change his rhetoric, but perhaps his voters will understand its disingenuous outcomes.
4
Are political conservatives Christians or Republicans first? Having lived in the South, I guarantee Moore does not believe he did anything wrong so he can stand up there and deny the allegations. The South in the rural areas has not changed much mainly because the GOP has kept their constituents uneducated and well armed. Moore should step down but he won't until someone else has "real evidence". Moore is using an old tactic that the Pretend King Trump's administration has been using, all these allegations are lies but also faked. Lies mean the accusation is not true. But fake means the accusation was made up and therefore the accused cannot say whether it is true or not since the accusation does not exist. Play this game all day long but the cat is out and someone in the South knows the truth. This is why this tactic does not work because the past is the truth and it always has its' day.
6
Mr. Kristof does not like liberals mocking evangelicals as a group, but I still can't reconcile evangelicals' willingness to prioritize the importance of moral character differently for politicians, depending on whether that person is a Republican or a Democrat. Something is very wrong there.
5
The sad truth is that many women in the state of Alabama, possibly as much as 45-50% of the female population, have been victims of sex abuse or sex assault at some point in their lifetimes (and I don't make this statement as a hunch, or without empirical knowledge; I worked in health sciences for years, and conducted evidenced based studies on women's health issues, often specific to personal sexual history). Many of these victims (mostly women) in Alabama who have been abuse or assault victims will vote for Roy Moore. Why? For the same reason or reasons many women/victims voted for Donald Trump. Moore's first assault victim at 14, voted for Trump. There is a deep culturally-related branding of those who claim to have been victims of assault, especially in demographics where men, many of them forceful and captive and patriarchal, dominate those arenas overseeing local political and social welfare. Women in these demographics often are further victimized to accept themselves as "second class" and facing any history of assault or abuse is often relegated to a "fact of life". Women who've been victims in Alabama often refuse to seek therapy and "block out" that they were ever once a victim. This leads to mental issues, physical separation from partners, and a running dichotomy between what is "real" about their past (e.g. assault and sex abuse) and what is tangible in their daily lives (e.g. a man running for political office who conforms to their political ideology).
11
@ Chris H .. Your "sad truth" analysis is not solely Alabama's 'sin'. It is the historical reality across the USA...in offices, backrooms, bedrooms. barns, haystacks, corn & cotton fields, backseats, parks, church pews, medical facilities, showrooms, dressing rooms, casting 'couches', hotels, motels; the list is endless as is the list of silent victims. As a silent victim your comment overwhelmed me with sadness & a renewed sense of loss of innocence.
The question to ask, where does Roy Moore's power of thought come from? That is a troubling because he uses faith based arguments to normalize discrimination, abuse of women and children, poverty, and policies which promote social injustice. It is hard to argue against faith, because it usually not fact based, but goodness based. So where is the goodness? The push back should come from the Clergy, but protests from the pulpit have been too meager to notice. Some recent comments by Moore supporters concerning "Mary and Joseph" are astonishing for anyone with even a fleeting reading of the Bible, but I haven't heard Moore's own personal Pastor complain. So is this the acceptance of hypocrisy which leads to horrific events against ethic peoples or people of different faiths? Does this silence lead to a tilted thought process which causes young men to grow up and abuse women at work, underpay employees, or pass laws that hurt the majority of a population at the expense of wealthy men? Where is the Clergy, and why are they not screaming in protest? Their silence is simply deafening. Our President could lead, and so could our leaders of Congress who claim to be men of faith. So where does our President worship each week, and who advises him on matters of faith? Is that too much to ask?
5
Since last year's presidential election the "liberal" media has come under increased criticism and rejection by the far right, which are Moore's ardent supporters. As I watched the coverage of this story last night on network news, his supporters were discounting the story, and vowing to support Moore. This sickens me almost as much as Moore and his actions. How can evangelical Christians continue to excuse behavior that clearly goes against the spirit (and many times law) of the teachings in the Bible? Since it is too late to have him removed, from the ballot, he will probably win the election. As of now, he doesn't seem to be inclined to do the right thing and bow out. So this will set up a dilemma within the GOP senate. They may have to finally take a stand against this man and his ilk and prove their mettle.
4
Mr. Kristof,
How wonderful it would be if we leave God out of all this, and judge Mr. Moore's actions on basic ethical principles: treat all human beings including yourself as an end not as a mean. It is as simple as that.
1
Hypocrisy is a charge leveled from both left and right. And both sides do indeed justify the sins of their leaders by the pointing to the "good" ends they hope for. But only Trump evangelicals build a monolith of me-first atop a foundation of morality. When that foundation is jello, the monolith falls. The question is when.
2
Kristoff is unfair to Christians who believe that only faith justifies and that works are irrelevant to salvation, which is given by God's grace alone. Translation: Those beliefs give them a pass to otherwise believe what they want and do what they want because they make no difference to their salvation. That is, sin now; pray later--but even prayer is not efficacious. So they can lie, cheat, manipulate, molest, abuse, enslave, hate, torture, or kill with impunity because God's grace is not conditional on their beliefs or feelings or conduct so long as they have faith in Jesus Christ. If they choose to think or act differently--and better--they can, but these better thoughts and actions do not arise from these core Christian beliefs.
4
It is ironic that Roy Moore is, or was, a judge. One of the most powerful, and scary, things I learned during my PhD studies on Near-Death Experiences (NDEs) is that some of those with a particularly deep experience report an "empathic life review"--their consciousness expanded exponentially, their whole life was going on in an eternal now, and they entered the consciousness of everyone, human or animal, on whom they had an impact. P.M.H. Atwater says "There wasn't any heavenly St. Peter in charge. It was me judging me, and my judgment was most severe." Some say that they felt God as present, regarding them compassionately in their ordeal.
If this is in fact the meaning of the Great Judgment in certain strands of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and even Buddhism--and if it applies to all of us--Judge Roy Moore may not have a very pleasant time of it. In fact, a lot of us won't. Loving one's neighbor, and even one's enemy, may turn out to be just common sense.
3
Moore is a dirty man, lacking in any semblance of real Christian thoughts. He has simply spent his life spewing hate and righteous exclusion from a democratic society and revels in his own ignorance. That citizens around him endorse and excuse him is disappointing, but not discouraging. The likes of Roy Moore will not prevail. Those of us who believe in equality, civil rights, and an inclusive and caring society, will press on, and try to keep compassion, tolerance and love in our hearts.
7
Thank you for this, and especially for the comments by Elnes. It helped me gain perspective rationally, instead of just emotionally. I didn't think what he did could seem any more "wrong" to me, but of course now it somehow does.
1
Amen to pastor Elnes' sentiments.
Forgiveness and acceptance of sinners is one of the most crucial tenets of Christianity.
God can forgive Roy Moore even now, but repentance on his part is necessary; and with these allegations he should disqualify himself from public office.
2
Judge not, that ye be not judged. Also, it avoids the temptation of hypocrisy. But apparently, judging others, like playing the victim, plays well with the public.
Well said. I believe it is the presence of these "self-righteous," Christians that has most polluted the American experiment. This version, there have been others in America's history (and always with disastrous consequences) was embraced by GOP politicians since Reagan's first term and reached it's height perhaps with Palin's name on a GOP ticket in 2008 and again with Trump's election. Their tribalism is, in so many ways, the root cause of our societal gridlock and greatly responsible for our political gridlock in as much as when the base of your political belief is religious there can be no compromise in Congress or anywhere.
The radical right portion of the Evangelical movement that bought the soul of the Republican Party back in the 1970's can't hide the portrait of its corruption in the attic any more. In fact, it isn't even bothering to try. Republican voters validated moral hypocrisy when they voted in Donald Trump, giving license to the Roy Moores and their apologists to embrace their perversion of Christian teachings and democratic values without fear of repudiation in church or at the polls.
There is no longer any question as to whether Roy Moore represents his party and his church- it is now glaringly obvious that he does. I have little doubt that he will be elected to the US Senate in 2018.
1
We love the tri-faith initiative. One of the wonders of the world. Thanks for visiting!
1
Thank you for the column and especially for the quote from Eric Elnes. If only these so called evangelical "Christians" would practice the moral tenets of Christianity we would all be better off. As a lifelong Catholic in late middle age I don't want to live in a "Christian" country . I want to live in a country that supports all its citizens - Jews, Muslims, Athiests, Agnostics and yes, Christians.
1
I forget which of the great Indians it was who said,"I respect your Jesus, but it seems to me that most Christians do not follow his teachings." That is a terrible paraphrase, but I think you get the point. And I have to say that he was correct. Most USA Christians are hypocrits and don't begin to follow Christs teachings.
Isn't the basic image of Christianity, The Ultimate Victim? Moore has simply overstepped the dogma to declare himself the existential metaphor. Shaming is a dessert best served HOT if you've devoted your own life to the same salvation mechanism, but are much more obtuse than the Moores of the world.
Like most thinking American I abhor Moore and his ilk. But I think crucifying a public figure on account of unsubstantiated allegations respecting a hot issue is simply not right.
1
Better read the Washington Post article again, Frank. The allegations are not "unsubstantiated". They are very well substantiated and many men have gone to prison on less evidence.
3
The part many of these criticisms are lacking is that not only are the evangelicals wrong morally, they're wrong strategically. Compromising on core values in the name of self-preservation is self-defeating, as it will only further drive people away from their failed ideology in the long run, regardless of whether it wins an election in the short term.
2
Mr. Kristof, you hit the nail on the head with your final sentence, and it captures the intractable issue that divides America. Liberals continue to try to make compelling arguments about correct, desirable, or morally acceptable behavior and policy, while Trump and Moore supporters are tribal. Argument is incapable of prevailing.
Tribes support leaders who win, nothing else matters to them, so Republicans support the likes of Trump and Moore, and will continue to do so as long as they are seen to be winning. Everything written in the NYTimes is preaching to the choir (which is useful to make them sing).
1
Many people seem to have missed the fact that society just last year witnessed the death of the Christian Church when they elected Donald Trump. It wasn't quite as dramatic as the death of God. There are indeed scattered Christians here and there that actually follow the teachings of Jesus but the church as a whole elected Donald Trump. The Pew Research Center reports that the more frequently Christians attended the church of their choice and presumably read the Bible, the more likely they were to vote for Trump. Any moral authority the church felt it had has been shattered and the coming election of Roy Moore will just confirm this.
1
It's pretty obvious, this isn't about God or Republican or Democrat or Conservative or Liberal; some people (mostly men) feel they're entitled to grab (mostly women) without asking. I'm troubled by the turn to ideology these discussions take.
Much as I agree that the tenants of Christianity were broken by Moore, it's not only a Christian problem. It's not a Republican or Democrat problem.
It's a human problem where some people (mostly men) sexually assault and harass other people (nearly every woman and some men).
Examining the problem through the lens of religion, as Mr. Kristoff has done here, fails to engage how common the experience is; there are Moore's and Louis C.K.'s in every nook and cranny of our world, and we're going to have to figure how to reconcile the good works they might have done with the harms they've caused.
1
I like this article. It points out the hypocrisy of some evangelicals without villainizing all of them. I'm extremely liberal, with zero tolerance for hard Right Christianity's attempts to force everyone else to live under its narrow, intolerant version of 'God's' rules. But I have evangelical friends whom I admire and respect and wouldn't trade for the world.
By the way, the evangelical hypocrisy you wrote of (although not the Christian defense of it -- which appears to be a new phenomenon, in our Trump era 'politicians-can-say-anything-that-pops-into-their-head-to-their-loyal-following' world) was well portrayed in the 1920's novel "Elmer Gantry" (made into an academy award winning film).
1
Excellent article! More and more young people are avoiding Christian churches at least partially due, I believe, to the blatant hypocrisy that we all see there. With so much splintering of families that we have now, caring church communities are truly life support for some kids. It's easy to get sidetracked by the loud mouthed hypocrites and bigots, turn our backs on the whole organization of Christian churches (as I myself have pretty much done), but there are lots of good people there who go about their faith with humility. I don't want us to forget about them.
1
You are too kind to the evangelicals, but I forgive you that. Who am I to judge? But if Jesus was to sue, he would have filed generations ago as churches and church leaders of all stripes mixed their blind adherence to supposedly divinely-inspired scripts of all kind with their political desire to control others and mine their money. Our earth is literally littered with grand churches, mosques and synagogues paid for with funds that would have been better spent on helping the poor.
1
When I read or hear stories such as these concerning the staggering hypocrisy of far-right Christians, I start to fume.
As someone who considers herself open-minded, progressive and forward-thinking—I’ve really come to dislike the label of ‘liberal’—I often need to check in with myself to make sure that I am not becoming intolerant of those who display intolerance.
Do I believe in God, a Creator Source, or Higher Intelligence? Absolutely. But that is my own belief and my own relationship to cultivate. It is not my place to try to convert, convince, or impose my beliefs on another individual’s free will.
Where I really struggle to keep my equilibrium is when individuals, such as Roy Moore, are more concerned with putting on a show of their religious piety rather than trying to truly understand and embrace what Jesus was trying to teach. This a very personal and individual journey. I don’t know, but something tells me that Jesus isn’t giving high-fives to those who invoke his name while spewing hateful nonsense.
Roy Moore and his ilk need to stop railing against and concerning themselves with the perceived demons of their fellow man, and spend more serious time examining and making peace with their own.
2
He might win. Between Trump and Moore, and the further restriction of women's ability to choose, it is clear that women in the US are often seen as objects with no persona or agency. Is it any surprise that we can't elect a woman? We should be angry and watchful. All those old white men around the table in the WH is a scary regression.
1
Mr. Kristof: If Roy Moore actually did what he is accused of, he should exit the current race and abandon a future life in politics. He should also be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Judge Moore categorically denies the allegations, which only came to light after decades and just before a hotly contested election, yet your column reads as though there is no question as to his guilt. It therefore seem to me your derision is a bit premature.
2
I remember when a group of Republican Senators
went to the White House in August of 1974 and told
Richard Nixon it was time to resign.
I was rather shocked that Democratic Senators did not
do the same when President Clinton was accused of
having sexual relations with "That Woman".
I was wholly disappointed that Clinton did not resign
and the Senate did not impeach him for his actions and lies.
Moore appears quite guilty - he should do the decent thing -
and step aside unless he can refute the charges.
2
@Cassandra: you have cause to be disappointed that "the Senate did not impeach him for his actions and lies.", i.e.,
"The House of Representatives...shall have the sole Power of Impeachment." Said power was exercised in the case of President Clinton, to date only the second President to have been impeached.
"The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments. ...And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present."
One chamber impeaches and the other convicts resulting in removal from office.
I do agree with your assessment of Roy Moore.
2
"But I find it infuriating to see some evangelicals now downplaying child molestation or our president’s boasts of sexual assault."
Evangelicals didn't simply "downplay" Trump's boasts of sexual assault. They ignored them, even sneered at them. They were and are the president's strongest supporters. Likewise evangelicals, at least in Alabama, seem to be overwhelmingly in their support of the child molester.
That is not simply "infuriating," Mr. Kristof. It completely disqualifies evangelicals from having a say on any moral issue. In recent years, "morality" for them has been largely a matter of reiterating traditional prejudices against gay people, prejudices that bare scant relation to the Bible. Now when a genuine and very clear-cut moral issue comes up, they are--incredibly--on the wrong side of it. Who can possibly be unable to condemn the molestation of a child?
I am a Buddhist. I can assure you that if my sangha or its leaders found themselves unable to denounce pedophilia I would be gone tomorrow. That would not be a difficult decision. No one in their right minds would want to be associated with any organization or community that could not condemn one of the most vile, despicable acts imaginable.
Stop trying to defend evangelicals. Instead, ask with the rest of us: What on earth is wrong with these people?
5
I need to add to your comment "conservatives believe that morality is about only personal behavior while liberals believe it is only about policy positions." I'm a progressive Christian, a minister. I believe morality is about MY personal behavior as well as using policy to care for those we are told to love.
1
This isn't a comment supporting Moore, who I have no use for. But, the comment regarding the age of Mary being unstated in the NT is, while true, just as ridiculous as Ziegler's comment because it implies an acceptance of the premise that if Mary was a teenager, it might somehow support what was in the 1970s would be considered immoral. The NT doesn't say what Mary's age was, but in her teens was likely. In Roman times 12 year old girls could be of age to marry and the modern age of consent is still in teenage years in America. It could often be with an older man. The ancient Jewish tradition was similar. It likely was wherever there were marriage laws. It has nothing to do with what our culture is now or Roy Moore and shouldn't be defended on those grounds.
1
From Mr. Kristof's description of Roy Moore, the man is no different from the innumerable theologians, ecclesiastics, and theocrats who built a layer of varnish, foam, opium for the masses, and prohibitions on the simple and straightforward base of the Ten Commandments -- the ultimate foundation of primordial monotheism. The latter has split into many religions and sects,
1
[the above was submitted before it was finished]
The latter has split into many religions and sects, each convinced that its own faith is the only true one. Without calling explicitly to physical extermination of others, Roy Moore represents the spiritual descent from the Inquisition, the wars of religion, and the atavistic desire to annihilate those who think differently.
I was about 9 with other kids in the back seat of a car driven by a woman, good friend of my mother, and her husband was in the front seat with her. He reached back and wiped his hand against my private parts. I told mom. She didn't want to say anything to her friend.
2
At 65 I have witnessed the seismic shift in the public face of the Republican Party.
In my youth, as I became aware of politics in the Jim Crow South, I watched as Conservatives, the Republican Party and Religious operatives railed against Liberal weak stance on communism, family values and national defense. Conservatives held themselves forth as the body politic endowed by God to protect this republic Liberal moral decay. Conservatives and their religious champions alone know what’s best for America’s survival and progress.
In 2017, the shroud of respectability, the pretense of moral superiority has been ripped away. We now see, without the benefit of rose tinted glasses, the true essence of Republicans and the Religious Right.
The pretense is over. Corruption, incompetence and immortality is openly embraced. Republicans on the state and federal level are taking this nation into dangerous waters.
4
I lost faith in the moral sanctity of churches when I realized how many did nothing during the Jim Crow era, when I saw how many racists called themselves Christians, some being my own relatives, and when I saw what so many priests in the Catholic church (and those who protected them up to the top) had been up to for decades and more likely centuries. I am sure the hypocrisy and immorality extends to some believers in all religions. I respect those who are religious if they truly practice the teachings, but no more or less than those who are not religious.
I have no respect for the hypocritical, especially those who preach morality, because most people have some moral failings, and to not acknowledge that in yourself or in those you may admire for other reasons means you are unwilling to face the truth. Coming to an understanding of truth should be a goal in life of everyone.
For Christians, even Jesus loved sinners because he taught that forgiveness could lead to redemption, but only if people are willing to acknowledge what they have done wrong and want to change. The ability to find redemption for yourself or for others is a central theme in much of literature and the other arts because it means a person is willing to see things as they are and make changes for the good of all if needed.
If Jesus exists, I don't think he would recognize many interpretations of Christianity down through the ages and certainly not those of the Roy Moores in this world.
3
It is so inspiring and heartwarming to hear about a "tri-faith project in Omaha, where a church, a synagogue and a mosque are partnering on a shared site to build empathy and understanding." We should replicate such projects all across America. The self-righteous pose the greatest challenge to faith, whether the faith in question is Christianity, Judaism or Islam. The self-righteous don't have to be a preacher, of course. In fact, most self-righteous people we know operate within the family. Particularly for Muslims, patriarchy, with its attendant self-righteousness, has led to all kinds of moral and social problems. By learning from one another about how to reflect the tenets of our faiths in our actions, as Omaha's tri-faith project aims to, always within the bounds of moderation, we can shed the layer of hypocrisy that coats us all to varying degrees.
2
If these allegations are true, then of course Roy Moore should step down. But, what is easy to miss in all of this-and in our obsessive focus on Donald Trump and other politicians we deem evil-is that Roy Moore's positions on things like sexual orientation, religion, separation of church and state, etc, are known to all. The fact that he would probably have been elected (and he may yet) if these latest allegations hadn't come to light says something deeply disturbing about large swaths of the electorate. That is by far what concerns me the most. These guys are just representatives of the people-they are what the people want.
No matter the age, teach all kids to they should never be alone with an adult who isn’t family.
Teach them what to say, “My mom says I’m not allowed to be alone with any adults who aren’t family.” Teach them that if any adult makes them uncomfortable they can always say no, get out, and find another person!
The number of sexual assults committed in the presence of witnesses is tiny. We may never be able to stop sexual assault, but, there are things we can do to make it harder on predators.
Most child abuse is committed by friends or family, so I'm not sure that's gonna solve things. And, it puts the burden on the child.
“Meanwhile, an Alabama Republican legislator, Ed Henry, went even further: He said that the women accusing Moore should be prosecuted for waiting to make their allegations.”
That hits a nerve. How is a young teenager at 14 supposed to know that this awful deeply personal thing that happened to them in private both crossed a legal line and is part of a larger pattern by the perpetrator, giving rise to a duty to call the authorities to protect others?
When the 14 year old agrees to be picked up around the corner from their home they probably suspect the invitation might be forbidden, and when they accept alcohol when they’re underage they know they’re doing something wrong. (See the Post story.) It’s only human that this combined with the deeply personal nature of what happened will inhibit a 14 year old from reporting to the authorities. It certainly doesn’t shift responsibility away from the older person grooming and plying a 14 year old with alcohol to the 14 year old. And again, the 14 year old generally doesn’t know whether this is a pattern of conduct by the older person.
Someone needs to discuss with Mr. Ed Henry in no uncertain terms the relative responsibilities of older perpetrators and 14 year old victims.
4
Note that the woman this happened to voted for Trump despite the fact that other women had reported inappropriate behaviour from him when they were teenagers. She either didn't believe them, or didn't care. Forget it, Jesus; tribalism is far more powerful than righteousness.
1
I have not seen any instance in which a very public evangelical--particularly a politician--was not eventually found to have committed the some of the very acts that they condemn in others. How many evangelical politicians have raged about a particular behavior only for us to find out that they have had secret lives that included the behavior. So it would not surprise me if Roy Moore had some skeletons in his closet--he's rattling those chains very loudly.
3
Excellent as always, Nick. However, one clarification. Although I’m not an Alabama lawyer, I’m a former prosecutor and criminal law professor who can read a statute book. Yes, the facts alleged and well-corroborated in the WaPo piece regarding the 14-yr-old victim would constitute 2nd degree sexual abuse, a misdemeanor time-barred by the Alabama statute of limitations. But that doesn’t mean Moore is free and clear. Alabama Code 13A-6-69 also criminalizes enticement—luring a child into a private place for sexual purposes. It’s a Class C felony that appears to have been on the books since at least 1967. Alabama law also states that prosecution of any felony involving sexual abuse of a minor is not subject to time limitation. It seems Moore might still be subject to indictment for this offense. I’d love to hear from an Alabama prosecutor as to my reading of their law. And their decency.
8
"I’ve repeatedly defended evangelical Christians, and protested that they are one of the few groups that it’s socially acceptable for liberals to mock" Really? How about Catholics? That said, I agree with all of your critiques of Roy Moore and the evangelical right. But, like Catholics, there are other kinds of evangelicals who are worthy witness of Jesus' values: Jeff Warren of the Saddleback Church, Rick Warren, and others. Not to mention Pope Francis.
1
Well, it's likely that there are some good Christian evangelicals, but judging by their leaders, at least the prominent public ones, they deserve derision and mocking by everyone, not only liberals. And if these are such good wholesome passionate people as Kristof wants to assert, how could they possibly rally such strong support of Trump. Before Trump era, I might have bought Kristof's arguments, but not any more - they have show their true collective colors.
1
I started reading this as just another exposé of evangelical moral fraudulence until I read the words, "arguably resulted in millions dying unnecessarily all over the world." Then it hit me. They aren't just a nuisance. They aren't just defamatory. It's not about fluff, like Ten Commandments monuments, and arguments over creationism versus science. They are responsible for harmful and hurtful policy. They have blood on their hands. They, like those who have taken America perilously close to authoritarianism, must not only be removed from power, but also held responsible for the rest of their lives.
2
Please know that the Democratic Party nominee running against Roy Moore for the open US Senate seat is Doug Jones. Mr. Jones is a thoughtful, reasonable, moderate person respected by democrats and republicans alike here in Alabama. He is the antithesis of Roy Moore.
To any Alabamian reading this: Please vote on December 12 and please vote responsibly and there is only one responsible choice - Doug Jones
To everyone else reading this: Please know that there is a strong candidate and an enthusiastic campaign working hard 24/7 to defeat Roy Moore on December 12.
3
Well I can't say I was surprised. I disagree with many of the tenets of Evangelical Christianity but I have met evangelical Christians who were truly men of faith. And they do not talk/act anything like Mr. Moore. They were men who had empathy and kindness and humility. They were doctors who traveled to Africa and treated AIDS patients or ministers who held basement AA sessions for alcoholics and drug addicts. They understood that being a man of faith entails a whole lot more than placing the Ten Commandments inside a courtroom.
2
Kristoff:
Excellent article. Covered everything that needed to be said in a short space. Thank you.
Thank you for this. The staggering hypocrisy has driven a lot of people away from the church. The message that Jesus preached was one of forgiveness and tolerance but it's been twisted by the self righteous into one of hateful intolerance.
1
Judge Moore should have the opportunity to defend himself against these charges in a court of law. He should have the opportunity to hear his accusers and to respond to them. He deserves due process in the criminal justice system. Bring on the judge and the jury.
What is truly amazing to this non-Christian is the number of so-called Christians who are jumping ‘through the eye of a needle’ to defend their continuing political support of Moore. He’s not been charged, nor arraigned, nor tried for any of these allegations so is presumed innocent but (outside of political interests) one might think that his Evangelical supporters might like some questions answered before electing him to the U.S. Senate.
Amen!
I never cease to be amazed by the ways many so-called Christians invent to excuse their behavior when they are caught with dirty hands. They seem to get more creative the more heinous their offense. And this after condeming those they feel have violated the strictures and beliefs of their particular religion. Their hypocrisy is on a grand scale indeed.
Sadly, I doubt Jesus would get too far with a defamation suit in Alabama. Firstly, it would be difficult at best to find a jury of his peers. Secondly, such a jury would have to be selected from a pool of citizens that is largely Republican, white, Christian and/or evangelical. Good luck with that. His father might have to use his influence to get a change of venue at the very least.
This is not about Christianity, per se. It's not about any religion. It's about the pursuit of Power and coopting a religious system to aid the pursuant in doing it. It is almost literally a case of the wolf putting on sheep's clothing to attain self-interested ends, typically to reign supreme over the sheep.
This is why we have the separation of Church and State. It's something we need to return to enforcing more than we do. The pursuit of the secular, and the pursuit of the spiritual, are divergent paths and cannot be mingled (though they can coexist) as all true religious teachers, from Jesus to Buddha, have repeatedly advised and taught us down thru the ages.
John~
American Net'Zen
2
I love the quote by Rev. Elnes. "I've never understood why certain Christians are so eager to turn the United States into a Christian country when their time would be so much better spent turning their churches into Christian churches".
Too bad so many christians don't believe in the TEACHINGS of their Jesus. Most atheists I know admire and respect his teachings, and live by them.
It is getting to be a bit overwhelming, the amount of the revelations of male sexual misconduct and devaluing of the personhood of women that is coming to light. Sadly, it has always been there. But, none of us are perfect(without sin), so, the least we can do is admit this and not throw stones. Certainly one of the main messages of the Gospel is to not judge and therefore to not be a hypocrite. I hope some good can come from this, but redemption will not be easy for the likes of all of those accused and the victims. To some degree, Louis C.K. has confessed and Anthony Weiner is serving a prison sentence. On the other hand, our president attacks and the Alabama Republican Party minimizes and rationalizes. Now if the good voters of Alabama and America would just reject the hypocrites, we will be a little further on the right track.
Mr. Kristof: Thanks for your fair, reasonable, logical column. It was pretty much written on Moore's forehead that something was seriously amiss about him, aside from everything we already knew.
1
I truly do not like that I've come to the conclusion that evangelical Christians cannot be trusted.
It seems they believe it's ok to swear a false oath on their sacred bible as long as they'll be working for their god's higher cause. They also seem to have no problem with a person to breaking any and all moral laws as long as their god's using that person for his greater ends.
Sorry, but I won't be hugging any evangelicals anytime soon.
2
Good words. Thank you. Your last words will make a few of us believers to reflect a wee bit harder.
1
More and more, I appreciate these days a free press and a free judicial system. I suppose I could even say that I praise them, that they lift up my heart.
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Some in the GOP Senate have great misgivings about Roy Moore....so, IF he gets elected it appears they have the right to refuse to seat him. And if my information is correct, then they should certainly do so!
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The Democrats now seem to be the only party that represents decency. By not calling out their own, the Republicans can no longer claim that word.
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"If evangelical Christians want to engage in activism, they needn’t support hypocrites and bigots; they can support lifesaving organizations..."
And no doubt so many do, quietly, modestly, generously, with both their money and time. As Rev. Elnes suggests, it seems that those who use their religion to become celebrities, to accrete power to themselves, to try to remake the law of the land, are too often hypocritical in their self-righteousness. "If I do it, it's OK, because I am a good person. If you do it, it's bad, because you're bad and you're bad because you are different in some way from me," instead of, "If either of us do it, we're bad [at least at that moment] because the behavior is bad." You don't have the authority to be self-righteous about a topic unless you are righteous yourself about it. I suppose we are all hypocrites sometimes. Given that, the relevant questions are how many people are negatively affected by our hypocrisy and to what extent. Mr. Moore may have affected the lives of only four girls when he was much younger, but at least one of them, seriously. In his castigations of those who are not straight and not Christian (or Jewish, I suppose), he has given cover, acting as chief judge of his state, to those who have made life more difficult, to say the least, for however many thousands of LGBT and Muslim people live, work in or visit Alabama, and has probably been quoted as an authority by many others to do the same around the country.
There are elements of utilitarianism, anti constitutionalism and and anti Christianism in Mr. Kristof's article as well as in the "mediocre" responses of most commenters. There is the presumption of innocence in the Constitution, but author seems willing to overlook that in his zeal to score points in the ongoing political struggle. Of course, if 1 believes that the Constitution should not be the governing instrument of the US , but that rather we should consider ourselves global citizens responsible to say, UN and not the US.then Kristof's thesis is comprehensible. An accusation of sexual abuse, unprovable brought 40 years afterwards? "Faites pas rigoler!" Moore's unforgivable sin in the eyes of "gauchisants" is to believe that marriage is between a man and a woman, that Ten Commandments are sacred. The rest is of tertiary importance. Much hypocrisy on the left. How many give lip service to diversity but live in neighborhoods that are not diversified, economically, ethnically, sociologically.What about that Mr. Kristof? Last time I was in the chic "quartiers"of Westchester, inquired about public housing, since I hadn't seen any, nor did anyone whom I spoke to seem to know anything.Subject worthwhile looking into.Incumbent upon all of us of good will who live in wealthy enclaves to work towards creating variegated neighbooods where a poor minority family can live alongside a wealthy one.That should be our beau ideal.
You could not have said it better Nicholas. I agree with everything you say here, as I also agree with Bob Anderson, who so eloquently commented on hyprocrisy, and especially with his last sentence. We are raised to believe in and respect those with responsibility, in this case a man who was voted into office with the expectation that he would uphold decent moral standards and when morality fails it leaves us with more than distaste but with distrust and almost a feeling of betrayal.
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Roy Moore, read Louis CK's statement on his reprehensible behavior and acknowledgment of how deeply his actions have so profoundly impacted so many. This is how it is done.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/10/arts/television/louis-ck-statement.html
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Moore took a 14 yr old girl to his house, gave her alcohol and took her clothes off.
How is this different from Bill Cosby's m.o.?
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Hmmm, an unsubstantiated accusation of sexual impropriety by a Republican emerges shortly before an election date (despite the claim that the act happened 40 years earlier) with insufficient time to properly vet the circumstance.
How is this different than at least a couple of races that Democrats are losing every election cycle?
Frat boys do it too.
fast/furious: easy answer. Cosby is not running for Senator and has not help himself up to be a God-fearing, Bible-thumping righteous man.
Roy Moore follows the standard pattern of christian hypocrites that protest too much. How many sef-appointed pastors preaching againts homosexuality have turned up to have clandestine gay affairs? Or those thundering against adultery and sex before marriage turn out to seduce young members of their congregation? As far as defenders of Moore are concerned he did nothing wrong, the ten commandments do not include not making sexual advances to teenagers, besides just like Joseph he refrained from having sex with a teenager. Truly an admirable christian.
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The FBI should investigate all candidates for public office.
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That is, if folks in the FBI aren’t also guilty of this behavior...this must be as old as human civilization?
The hypocrisy of many of these men who profess such deep faith in God has become indescribable and egregiously indefensible. From Mike Pence down, we are forced to tolerate the lies and the use of their faith for personal gain and power. They wear their faith like a suit and they and their supporters, tie themselves into knots to rationalize their actions with all kinds of quotes form the Bible and finger pointing at anyone else but themselves. Well, their quotes and their suits are empty and they need to look in the mirror. I dare say if Jesus were here, he might have a different take and would be less than supportive. This is not about Christians being persecuted and being challenged for their faith. Religion has no place in governing. This was established by writers of the Constitution. This is about decency, telling the truth and taking responsibility for ones actions. If these men's works and words were actually based on the works and words of Jesus, they would be much more accepted by those who do not have the same beliefs. I dare say they would be very popular on the liberal side of the isle. Instead, they chose another path that is the opposite of their loudly proclaimed faith. I don't think that God will be suing these men, I truly believe he has other plans for them in the end. They think they are taking heat now? They will not be needing a coat when he is shows them the way to their eternal resting place.
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Thank you...just thank you, from Alabama...I count the "Doug Jones for Senate" in my neighborhood in Montgomery and have a small ray of hope that Alabamians do the right thing and practice true Christianity by rejecting Moore.
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A very good column by Mr. Kristof, but I'm afraid the Rev. Eric Elnes stole the show with this stinging statement:
“Blazing with self-righteous indignation toward others is often what people use to hide their own sins in the shadows. This is probably why Jesus’ biggest problem -- by far -- was with the self-righteous. When it came to those whom society cast away as ‘sinners,’ Jesus was repeatedly gentle, gracious, encouraging, and forgiving, but he continually castigated the self-righteous.... I’ve never understood why certain Christians are so eager to turn the United States into a Christian country when their time would be so much better spent turning their churches into Christian churches.”
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A new low in American politics. Mr. Kristof’s words should be echoed in every church, temple and mosque this weekend.
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not trying to make lite of a horrible situation but we have already had the boy child molesting ex speaker of the house. now the senate wants to install a man under question for molesting young girls. but since he is a stalwart christian it is sorta ok. holy moly what a week with the twitter in charge away. this is beyond wrong Mr Kristoff and there is nothing we can do about this yet. he is not a senator and i do not think he will become one, but each day his consideration lingers the GOP look foolish.
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He is a pretend Christian. More like a Christian pitchman who doesn't use his product. But wants everyone else to buy it.
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I think we all know that we are ALL imperfect, that in the words of the Bible, we are all sinners. If we could all just accept that fact. If we could all stay off of the soapbox, calling for the persecution of others who are supposedly BIGGER sinners, pretending that any of us are Christ-like, it would be a much nicer planet.
I always instinctively been repelled and disgusted by those who claim to be "more" Christian than others. The Jim Bakers, Pat Robertsons, Jerry Falwells and their ilk who seem more Satan-like than God-like. This guy Judge Moore seems to be another one of the big phonies. He must be crawling inside with demons. So I guess that is why he lashes out at others, as if he is in any position to judge. How ironic that he became a "Judge" and was removed from office for willfully ignoring the law.
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This crowd will sell Jesus, Mary and their own mothers down the river to save themselves for a day - just a day.
It is quite a craven crowd. Words have no meaning for them.
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Yes Mr Kristof, only after God impeaches Mr Trump, who has proudly stated the way he has put his hands in women's cruches, dropped two wives and married a third, 30(?) yrs his junior.
An then he claims that he has never had reason to ask for forgiveness...what utter hypocrisy: Moore is not fit to be a senator, but Trump can flaunt his past shenanigans with women and remain our "President"
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Trump got away with it and he's a Republican. Moore is a Republican so he will get away with it too.
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The fake christian evangelical republican cult my friends. Cognitive dissonance, and sanctimonious hypocrisy have no better friend than evangelicals.
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Leigh Corfman was commoditized by Nancy Wells.
Years ago, as Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson were getting their political machines up and running, my wife - the daughter of a Baptist pastor of small country churches - said that such activity was the beginning of the decline in the standing of Christians in the nation:
"If you're pursuing political aims, no matter how you dress it in Biblical robes, you're no different than any other political party. Inevitably, you will have to take hypocritical positions to get elected, or to see your positions acted upon. And people, including those who have no religious beliefs, will see through you, and treat you accordingly. We are called to preach and live the gospel - that's all, and that's hard enough. We are not called to bring the kingdom into being by the political process. When God wants his kingdom, he'll do it, not us."
She was (is) correct.
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If God wants to take up this suggestion, I'll represent him/her. And I'll do it pro bono.
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Actually, doesn't the Christmas tale says Mary was raped by an angel?
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“Divine” invitro fertilization. If I remember correctly happened to Gautam Buddha’s Mom too.
Many of these avatars supposedly descend on earth to deliver mankind messages of peace brotherhood compassion and love. Jesus wasn’t as fortunate as Buddha who lived to the ripe age of 80, spreading his messages from village to village, kingdom to kingdom, on foot.
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Mary consented, and no physical activity took place.
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Woah there Dave...
Actually the Bible doesn't record anyone raping Mary, angel or otherwise.
Please read Matthew 1:18. This account clearly indicates "Mary became pregnant by the power of the Holy Spirit (AKA the spirit of God)." The next verse clearly indicates the heart of Joseph, her husband-to-be. "Joseph, was a good man and did not want to disgrace her publicly..." In other words, an angel didn't rape Mary.
(I think you were referring to the angel Gabriel, who only told Mary she was going to become pregnant). And Joseph, far from taking advantage of a younger woman, actually protected her and stood by her when he found out she was pregnant.
Last time I looked, Joseph did not have sex with young Mary that resulted in the birth of Jesus. Read your Good Book, Roy!
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This should be an NYT pick.
Repression leads to oppression.
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Yes you wanted to turn the other cheek and got slapped in the face. Moore is a perfect example of these hypocrites who will lie and accuse others for his self gain. He will succeed in getting elected to the Senate as I am sorry to say the people of Alabama who will vote for him are bigots and ignorant cowards. Then in the Senate he will contribute six years of absolutely nothing but probably line his pockets with money from the NRA, the Kock brothers and other conservative fire brands. Yeah and as they will tell you anyone who calls them out is just fake news. And I thought George Wallace was bad. He is not even in the same league with this disgraceful lot of Alabama politicians.
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Moore's sanctimony about sex and his rhetoric against Muslims are certainly ample reason to hope he never sits in the US Senate. I would relish seeing him lose the coming election. But hey! Whatever happened to the word "alleged?" Why are you saying "victims" instead of "alleged victims?" Since when are we the public, or you the pundit class, judge and jury before all the evidence is in?
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Since none of these cases will ever see a day in court because of the statute of limitations, dropping the word alleged seems fit. Mr. Moore was an
Assistant District Attorney in the city where these women lived, who were they to make a complaint to? He knew that at the time and took full advantage of it.
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the issue of being innocent before being proven guilty is somewhat compromised in this case because while Roy Moore absolutely and categorically denies the charges, his defenders are saying, "Anyway, he didn't go all the way with her", and "Anyway, it's in the Bible"...
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"the former Democratic member of Congress, who is now in prison for sexting a 15-year-old girl."
Why aren't all the other sexual predators in prison with him? All of this trial-by-Internet-shaming bothers me. The best way to handle an accusation of criminal behavior is through the legal system where there are procedures for determining guilt and innocence.
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I am just speechless at the utter chutzpah of so-called "christian conservatives" who defend Moore. Those who would excuse such abuse prove themselves to be both utterly immoral and the worst kind of hypocrites.
And I say this as a Southern Evangelical myself. We must throw out these immoral hypocrites or else they will drag us into the mud with them.
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They already have. Sorry.
Truer words were never spoken: “I’ve never understood why certain Christians are so eager to turn the United States into a Christian country when their time would be so much better spent turning their churches into Christian churches.” I'm so fed up with the self-righteous "Christians" who, craving power, wish to deny freedoms to others. Joel Osteen and Jerry Falwell Jr. and Roy Moore and their ilk are all despicable hypocrites.
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I understand what it means to have one's faith under attack. As a Christian, I feel my faith has been under attack ever since the Moral Majority took hold in the 1980's. My faith has been kidnapped by Pharisees.
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Many people question why the woman waited forty years to talk about the molestation that took place when she was fourteen. I was an adolescent decades ago and I know why she didn't speak up. Open talk about sexuality wasn't common then like it is now. Decades ago women and girls always got the blame if they were molested or raped. Who would talk about it if you knew you'd be blamed?
When I was twelve I was riding horses with my friends when a complete stranger came out of his house and asked if we'd give his four-year-old a ride. He put his little boy on one horse and then, uninvited, jumped behind me on my horse, kicked it to make it run far ahead from my friends, and stuck his hands up my blouse. I was so embarrassed and ashamed. I didn't tell my friends I was riding with, I didn't tell my family, even my husband today doesn't know.
I can hardly believe that the first people I tell are readers of the NYT, but I'm telling because I want the naysayers to know that adolescent girls don't tell, especially decades ago, because they are embarrassed and ashamed of the incident. I don't doubt at all that the women hid it all these years. I know I've hidden the incident for over fifty years.
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Thank you for sharing. Your courage will open the door for others to do the same. The wave is growing.
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It was a crime and he was an Assistant DA. Who would listen? Sort of like Strom Thurmond's rape of a black maid. Who would have listened? Who cared?
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I am so sorry this happened to you. Stories like yours are why I've been so enraged at the reaction to Moore's actions. I was a school counselor for 35 years and sat with children who shared stories like yours with me and then sat with them again as they told their parents and guardian ad litems and child protective social workers and judges. I watched their anguish in the telling and sometimes felt like saying on their behalf "never mind", knowing that seldom would anything really bad happen to the perpetrator. I thought we'd made progress; not so sure now.
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Not sue him, SMITE him v
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'....Bush, who [not 'whom'] I thought was more moral..."
Please.
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Wrong. "Who" is right.
For example, "Who ... was moral."
You don't say, 'Whom ... was moral."
When McMurphy (the Jack Nicholson character in the movie) explains his statutory rape charge in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, he says the following:
"When you get that little red beaver...right there in front of you, I don't think it's crazy at all."
Apparently numerous Moore defenders as well as the sometime-judge himself agree. This is easy to understand, in that the laws are not supposed to apply to their sort of folks, white, upstanding self-declared 'Christians' who know their sins are already forgiven.
Or 'Pharisees' as the Scripture calls them.
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thank you Mr. Kristoff for continuing to be a voice of logic. I'm so fed up and getting worn down with all the hypocrisy . I admire your endurance.
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Each time I bring this topic up on Facebook, my elders (including my civics teacher from 1968!) protest, saying they belong to evangelical churches and they have NEVER seen this type of issue with their clergy or congregation. I think maybe they don't want to see it.
When a fervent evangelical 'youth minister' was elected to our small town's city council, I was alert, as mayor. When he protested increasing our water rates by saying, 'but I have boys over at my house showering every day, I can't afford a rise in the rate' my red flags were flapping at hurricane force. When he was caught drunk with an eighteen year old in a compromising situation, he was run out of town on a rail, but not prosecuted. I was not surprised.....this goes deep, and that's not a nasty pun. I am no longer naive. I'm aghast.
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Well, Nick, here you go again.
The same old, with a soupcon of subtlety.
Two points you refuse to address:
1) These are the leaders these people desire. There is no hint of dissatisfaction, only holier-than-thou moralizing about how awful it is that we civilians attack these excellent men, that we fail to realize the breadth and the depth of God's love and forgiveness.
Where are the "good Evangelicals"? The ones who care about something other than themselves, the ones who might actually read the Bible on occasion, the ones who recognize the evil that dwells within boundless ego?
2) Whatever we may think of Evangelicals (and by and large everyone I encounter and read are willing to cut them whatever breaks we can), we also know what they think of us, and attempt to do to us in their daily lives.
We are hopeless, we are people who need to be corralled and controlled, we are people unworthy of the name. The Evangelical way has become the worldly, political way, and they are ruthless in their pursuit of bizarre political goals. Their world has no place for America or American traditions no space for love or humanity No place for compassion or compromise.
How can one accommodate a religion that seeks only what it wants, and seeks to force its will on every living being. A world in which God has granted them unquestioned dominion and leave to degrade, provoke, abuse at will? A religion that refuses to recognize any way but its own?
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When you say, "Sigh. When Christians cite the Bible to defend child molestation, Jesus should sue for defamation." ... I cringe. It would be fair to say "when some" or "when someone who claims to be a Christian says" that would be better. Otherwise, your bias seeps out of your skin and on to the printed page.
And, just to be more specific, Jesus doesn't need to sue. In fact, far from it. There comes a day when he will judge, so your perspective with such a statement misses a big idea you should know. Again, the bias ...
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Jack Potter . . . "When Christians cite the Bible to defend molestation . . ." is a logic problem you need to learn: the statement excludes true, intelligent and well-meaning Christians, to focus on those who misuse the Bible.
I love that quote about Christian churches. It is so devastatingly true.
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