I have to admit that I don’t know who this guy is but seems famous based on all the news coverage. The behavior, self gratification and forcing women to watch it is extremely bizarre never mind the perversion and abuse. I am a male and I simply cannot even begin to understand this grotesque behavior. And these are middle- aged guys. I am extremely sorry that women had to witness this kind of debauchery. What is wrong with these guys? It is sickening.
This is not normal behavior. These guys need medication and perhaps isolation and therapy. In Harvey’s case, prison.
17
We don't know the facts yet, but I have to admit that when I watched that Sat Night Live episode last Spring, I thought he was hilarious, and I marveled at how well he played the perverted older man in the soda shop and that lawyer with the fake eyelashes. Now I realize that he might have some innate ability to play those kind of parts that didn't come from acting or comedy training. No wonder he's so good at those parts.
6
To show how much I pay no attention to popular culture, I had never heard of this character. However, after reading about this guy, and his confession that the allegations are true, I wonder why people were willing to provide this him with an audience? From what I have read his routines were pretty disgusting. He had been doing this for years - surely people that were hiring him had an idea of how he was treating women. But once again, until women are finally saying enough and outing these creeps, the businesses profiting from the likes of this person, Weinstein, Spacey and all the others did nothing. That is the important story. They may be running from these guys as quickly as they can, but it doesn't mean they didn't help perpetuate this type of behavior.
6
I wonder how many men will be sleepless this weekend - terrified of finally be outed and held accountable for their assaults. By the responses below, clearly many would be shocked how rampant this is.
11
I’d look into an aggressive simulated sex scene in Darren Aronofsky’s The Wrestler. The director and Mickey Roarke did not discuss the scene beforehand with the actress and she was so upset by it, she asked a crew member to stay with her and look after her all night afterwards. It’s the same thing Bertolucci admitted to doing on Last Tango In Paris. It’s the tip of the iceberg.
7
We act consistently surprised and possibly horrified that our heroes have feet of clay. We expect these people with what we consider power to behave like good and proper puritans, useful pawns, like the rest of the world. It is really quite naive, and tiresome, and makes so many people (Victims? Or are they witnesses? All the rest of us?) seem even more stupid and manipulated than they (We?) are. The acts of these somewhat disturbing people are in a sense extortion, taking an opportunity for their own gratification at someone else's expense, turning what should be some uncompensated act of "friendship" into a demand for an audience, in a sense a commercial trade.
As annoying as this is, assuming it is relatively harmless, as opposed to rape, so many of these people (On both sides?) also think it is a trade of their humiliation for career advancement.
2
All of these people outed in rapid succession are going down in amazingly fast time. So, how does trump still stand? We have his admission ON TAPE. Billy Bush; where is HE? All he did was enable trump, and it was enough to sink him. And the nasty Moore in Alabama. Going down? Remains to be seen. I ask you parents of young girls and boys. Would you let your children near trump knowing he’s a molester? How about Moore? Molester of 14 year olds. Does the Bible preach molesting as acceptable? You must vote these non and fake religious people off the island. trump found out on Tuesday how women ( and men) are tired of silence in the face of these people who abuse their power. Alabama , the world is waiting to see what you do.
5
It's curious that this story is drawing more attention (judging by apparent number of internet responses) than Roy Moore's groping a 14-year old. Seems to me there is a confluence of sexual puritanism with genuine concern about workplace sexual harassment, which seems a legitimate issue where Louis CK masturbated on the sly during a professional phone call and when he used his position as producer to get a woman to agree. But otherwise, isn't adults asking other adults for sexual stuff the way it's supposed work?
But just as much of the outrage seems to be about the deviancy of Louis CK's fetish of wanting women to watch him masturbate. A lot comments emphasize that aspect of it, as though it would have been better if he just asked for good old fashioned Mad Men-style sex. Maybe people would be angrier about Roy Moore if he asked the 14-year old to watch him masturbate instead of groping her.
7
This current sexual harassment coverage by all media is becoming a national witch hunt against ALL MEN!
Men want ONLY ONE THING from women and that's sex.
Women walk around our society with their skirts up to their privates and their breasts exposed knowing full well what that triggers in men.
And now they are complaining that men respond in provocative ways.
Many of the complaints are now about actions that these women could have avoided and/or escaped from being exposed to.
If we were living not too many centuries earlier, these women would have been raped and fertilized to produced the succeeding generations passing along the strongest genes of the species.
Now all we pass along are the genes of weak men or sperm bank samples that combine with the genes of women who only want to rape men of their money, belongings and destroy their careers and reputations.
The media will pursue this current witch hunt until just saying 'good morning' to a woman or complimenting her in any manner will be considered sexual harassment.
Weinstein is a pig and so are any other men forced their physical bodies on any women. But masturbating in front of anyone is NOT A CRIME and to many might be considered comical if not titillating.
This is becoming more of a case of rape of men due to vengeance.
7
Some men do stupid, gross things that are offensive and potentially damaging to those who are unfortunate enough to experience the act.
As a woman, I am sympathetic to the #metoo women, but at the same time being in my mid 50s and in a male dominated profession, at some point one has to learn to expect these thing and when it happens - call it out immediately in the moment. Then tell everyone...There is nothing weaker than a man's ego - especially when his junk is hanging out.
14
So he likes to expose himself in front of women but makes sure to ask them first before he pulls it out: "Uh, excuse me. Would it be OK..."
I have a hard time accepting this as some sort of tragic event. Holding this position would probably not welcome me to a jury of my peers much less the comments section of the NY Times. But that really doesn't matter. This is what I see: A woman spends a long time putting on a face. Then she gets dressed and looks in the mirror, makes a few minor adjustments, and is out the door. As she's walking down the street, she catches the glances of several men and is either flattered or offended by it dependent on her mood. If the guy is handsome it's a real plus. If the guy is handsome AND looks wealthy, she might even smile back. But if a guy is ugly, he doesn't even stand a chance. He's a creep.
There are women who complain about being objectified. My guess is they're not getting paid for it and most likely realize they never will. There are others that are objectified but are paid well and don't seem to mind. They keep doing what they're doing while they still can. Afterwards, there will be plenty of time to complain.
It's a criminal act to force anyone to do anything against their will. But the key component is "against their will".
9
This is gross behavior. But curious why in this current political climate this is the second byline on NYT online? This is an exhaustively long, well researched article. Let me save you some time. Sexual harassment exists EVERYWHERE. It is great to talk about it and bring it to the light....but why are Louis CK's indiscretions being highlighted when they seem relatively mild compared to many others???
8
It's not just women who feel intimidated when a man does something like this. I'm a large, hetero male, yet when I was in my 20's I was with my girlfriend one afternoon at a secluded nude beach and we were harassed by a masturbating man. We were just lying in the sun talking, and hadn't seen anyone else in a while, when my girlfriend gasped and pointed, and I looked toward a rock near us to see a man partially exposed next to the rock with his pants down, doing the deed. As soon as he realized we noticed him, he ran off, but I was naked and really couldn't chase him. It made us feel so creepy, and in fact scared that he might be violent in addition to pervy, that we immediately got up and left. We had to walk a ways back to our car, and then sat in the car talking about how weird it was. Suddenly, I realized someone was standing near our car, and I looked through the window to see it was the guy again, once more with his pants down, looking in the window and masturbating. He had actually followed us all the way without us noticing him. I started the car and actually thought about trying to run him down as we sped away, but he was too quick and again ran off. As we drove away, he threw a rock and it shattered my back window! I wanted to try and catch him, but my girlfriend was yelling at me to just keep going. I have to admit, I was scared too.
5
Okay. I'm all for the catharsis. But it isn't just some guys. It is actually all men. They are part of a club. Some women are members of the club and share in their sexual behavior and actuallythink that's just the way it is man. I have been single now for over a decade. I have had no desire to date any man for over a decade. My marriage, followed by dating a guy who would laugh at the uproar over these things, and my mysogynistic father's death leave me no desire. Sorry, guys, I do not trust most of you.I do like many of my friend's husbands. I have no desire for them-- no I just think they are good guys. But I am tired of a lifetime of mysogyny and various forms of belittlement by men. And I am a successful and independent woman. A decade ago I dreamt of having a great relationship with a man. Sadly, no more. I don't even want one. My friends alwys wondered why I didn't divorce sooner or date. I'm done with it. I am a survivor. I could list so many even recent examples of harassment and abuse. How could I possibly be interested in a man? I'm just not, and I'm not gay either (I would like that actually). These news stories are not about this one guy or that one guy. This is the culture we have been living in. Now I understand what I couldn't explain to all my friends before. I just do not trust men and it is not going to change for me. I prefer to be alone. Sometimes this actually angers the men I come into contact with. Surprise, right?
12
It's important to remember that while power can be used to coerce, it's also attractive to many. Louis says that he was misreading people when he propositioned these women, and may have felt they were interested sexually. While many react to the image of him masturbating in front of women as "gross" or "perverted", these are subjective personal reactions and not moral absolutes. The nature and exclusivity of his marriage is between him and his wife.
It's certainly unfair to masturbate on the phone with someone without their consent, but this is a situation that can be ended in a split second by hanging up the phone. Others could simply walk out of a room or turn down his request. It's possible that these women felt pressured to comply so that he might help them with their careers, but it's also important to remember that he was nowhere near as famous and powerful when these acts occurred. He admits in his statement that he was widely "admired". People are often attracted to those that they admire, and the attraction can turn sexual.
People can be feminists and help women in there careers while also having sexual fantasies and urges that they struggle to control, sometimes to the offense of others. Just look at Prince for example. The irony here is that Louis' popularity is built on the way he exposes the hypocrisy and weakness in everyone. Apologizing and opening up the possibility of professional collaboration is all he can do, and it ought to be enough.
15
I was prepared earlier today to call into question the judgment of the NYT in bringing these allegations to light. After all, Louis C.K.'s behavior seemed, at first glance, to be qualitatively different from Kevin Spacey's, Harvey Weinstein's and Marc Halperin's in that no nonconsensual touching had occurred, and C.K.'s exhibitionism, although disturbing and clearly pathologically, struck me as more pitiable than predatory.
I also was concerned that the "witch hunt" which Woody Allen, of all people, had predicted was coming to pass, and as a consequence far more grievous behavior towards women would be dismissed or discounted in the future.
But after reading Louis C.K.'s blunt admission abut his behavior, I've changed my opinion about the value of the NYT's coverage of this story. As unpleasant as it was for me to read about Louis' C.K.'s tawdry, deranged and arguably "private" behavior, his admission forced me to question why I thought the story didn't merit public coverage. Hearing him admit he had abused his power over these women and rationalized it for years made me regret I had ever questioned the validity of the story in the first place.
Louis C.K. has provided the appropriate moral framework for assessing his behavior, and I have learned much from him in the process.
14
I respect Louis CK for his honesty in acknowledging that he did something wrong. I continue to respect him for being an intelligent and interesting performer who tries to do the right thing. But many other women could take his place who have been held down by the patriarchy that enabled him to abuse them, apparently without even understanding what he was doing. Maybe it's time for him to step aside so that one of these women, who have been held down for much less than committing the crime of sexual harassment, can finally emerge instead.
2
This parade of accusations have come forth because the already beautiful and universally-admired accusers of Weinstein are now also idolized for their bravery. Others want to join this glamorous group even if their celebrity victimhood is based on Louis' meek request for them to sit in on his favorite activity.
If behaviors are criminal, they should be prosecuted. Settlement to buy silence should be reformed. If Louis' actions are wrong because he worked with these women and there was a power dynamic, should all sexuality between coworkers be forbidden? More couples meet through work than any other forum.
9
How is she going to explain all this to his daughters?
3
I think of all the women who have experienced violent, forcible rape by non-celebrities, and their attackers are not prosecuted/convicted for any number of reasons. I compare their plight to the plight of these 5 women. If you were on a date, and the guy exposed himself, would you call the police? IMO, I don't think he acted so heinously that his life was destroyed. He has two children to support, and these women have made sure he won't be able to.
13
Has the President chimed in on this?
4
This is a strange fetish to be honest, and I guess it would fall under the category of exposing oneself to strangers as well. Don't get it. But it really does seem to insinuate power of a perverse kind.
It is refreshing to see someone who acted against his lawyer's advice to do the right thing. My hat off to Louis C.K.
6
I had never heard of this man until this story came out. His acknowledgement of responsibility, albeit after being outed, is unusual.
8
And yet they are still playing reruns of the Cosby Show, show some consistency media heads.
2
On what planet is it okay to ask the question "is it okay if I show you my d**k? or engaging in the kind of behavior that Louis C.K. has owned up to in a professional setting?
7
Let me explain why this behavior is really worse than some of the commenters want to think. A woman will likely be immediately be confused and fearful with this request. This man is so far away from reasonable behavior, the question is what's next? Is this really all this man wants? Will this man accept no for an answer? If I say no will I be able to leave? What is the better answer no or yes? No because that's what I want... Yes, because I fear that 'no' will escalate the situation far beyond the first request? What is the answer that will get me out of this as soon as possible preferably safely and with my person and dignity intact?
Irrespective of one's career prospects, the physical size of men vis-à-vis women will usually cause a power imbalance. A sexual request by an acquaintance and not in a public place will most often cause great deal of anxiety and pressure on the physically weaker party to comply. This will be true whether or not the man is further advanced career-wise or not. Forcing compliance through threat (here the threat the 'request' are one in the same) is the problem.
Why can't this man (or anyone else) make this request quietly/discreetly in a public or semi public space? The other party would feel free to give a true answer. Providing the ability to give free consent or dissent is the goal right? Or is it? Men, find a way to make it clear that 'no' is a viable option and the complaints will die down.
9
Dear Men, please stop arguing with women when they are explaining how damaging and upsetting these experiences are. Please stop expecting women to give men the benefit of the doubt or be grateful it wasn't worse. Please stop saying we have to understand that men are just this way and aren't going to change. Instead, please be quiet and listen to what women are telling you. Try to comprehend that women move through the world differently than you do. Please stand up for women, not just because you have daughters, wives, mothers, do it because we live in a civilized society and acting on base impulses is infantile, primitive, selfish and cruel.
25
We expect more from our comedians than from our government officials, the New York Times dutifully pointing this out by putting coverage from this outrage next to the stories of Republican nominee for U.S. Senate Roy Moore and his defenders. Unlike Mr. Moore, Louis C.K. owns up to his actions and does not attack his accusers. I am glad that Netflix and others are choosing a better path by not promoting Louis C.K. anymore, but I am also worried that we are missing the bigger picture.
4
Quit agreeing to watch him masturbate. Sexes are supposed to be equal, we expect adult men to live with their decisions, not blame somebody else. Louis is weird, I don't blame all his business partners cutting ties, but please stop lying.
1
Why don't men like Louis C.K. hire sex workers?
3
Who will be the first famous man to admit he’s been harassing women or men BEFORE he’s caught??
6
Ok he admitted he's gross. He's still gross, but at least he isn't hiding behind religion or addiction and running of to a spa to find a cure. He has daughters and has to reconcile his actions with how he wants his daughters to be treated as they get older.
No matter how you look at it, what Louis CK did to his coworkers was highly inappropriate and the five women clearly felt harassed and threatened by his misconduct. I am surprised by the number of comments here defending this man and his actions, and the people recommending them. No wonder these women had to suffer in silence for so long, if this is the reaction on the biggest liberal news platform in the nation.
11
I wish everyone would take responsibility like this and acknowledge to hurt they have caused. I hope this is a lesson for all the other people who handle it the wrong way
7
Louis CK has issued the most remorseful apology I have ever read. Let's give him much-needed time to reflect and figure out how to rebuild after this. While he was clearly inappropriate, it doesn't sound like he did anything illegal. He absolutely used his position to take advantage of women's shock.
I'm looking forward to seeing him back eventually, perhaps with his comedy minus the grosser part of his past routines. I think/hope that he will come out stronger after this.
4
Louis C.K. admitted the accusations are true. Despite his hang-ups at least he is NOW behaving like a mensch. Will the perverts like Roy Moore and Harvey Whinestein quit denying and also admit that they behaved badly, if not illegally?
5
So many commenters simply don't understand. Women who want to work or advance in their careers are FORCED to put up with sexual harassment and violence by men. It's not a choice.
9
We are too polite, and afraid of making a scene. I have to relay this story, after reading of the 9-year-old whose father switched seats with her at Radio City, after she told her mother about the man next to her putting his hand on her leg.
I was a middle-aged woman in Seoul, riding a crowded subway, when I felt what I thought might be a briefcase bumping my hip. I looked over my shoulder to see a young professionally dressed man standing behind me, looking blankly out the window. I moved over as much as the crowd allowed, but felt the bump again. I gave him another look, this time long and in his eyes, which he of course would not meet. It happened again, and I had to make a choice: ignore him, or confront him. I turned to face him directly, and said loudly enough for others to hear, "If you do that one more time, I will hit you in the face. I know you understand me." No more bumps for the rest of the ride.
Let's stop being afraid of hurting other's feelings or of making bystanders uncomfortable, or of making fools of ourselves. Call it out. What if that father had said to the man, "Don't touch my daughter again"? It's time we start giving the embarrassment and humiliation back to those who deserve it.
12
Is masturbating harassment?
Really?
I think it’s just sad.
When a gay man calls me “sexy” and I object, I am called homophobic.
Masturbating is just sad. In front of a stranger it is pathetic.
Louis C.K.? A very broken figure. Say it.
Harassment? Is a homeless person talking to you harassment?
We overuse terms and they lose meaning.
2
Hollywood is a strange town based on making alot of money and repeating the mantra that everyone you work with is "wonderful", when often you are dealing with people who are incredibly damaged. Just watch The Wizard of Oz again. These are facts Hollywood has known for a very long time. Who is the man behind the curtain and what is he up to? You probably do not want to know.
1
For any people minimizing this, I’ve had two men do this in front of me on isolated beaches. It’s not just the act- it’s the explicit threat. And it’s terrifying.
8
And who exactly was surprised about this?
I must say I enjoy much of Louis C. K.'s comedy. I am Canadian so not surprisingly Norm MacDonald is really the funniest man in the world but for an American in America Louis C. K. understands the pain that goes with really great standup comedy.
Louis' taking responsibility for his actions I hope is the beginning of men and women standing up and taking responsibility for their mistakes. It was Thomas Chandler Haliburton the Nova Scotia writer humourist and statesman who two hundred years ago said, "When a man is wrong and won't admit it, he always gets angry."
The history of our species is one of people in power justifying and even extolling the virtue of reprehensible behaviour. As someone who has appreciated Louis C, K. comic genius I am saddened by the behaviour but ecstatic that he has seen fit to acknowledge his mistakes and is seeking not only to apologize but rectify some of the damage he has inflicted.
My only remembrance of an America doing anything similar to Louis C. K.'s admission of guilt and promising an attempt at not only changing behaviour but helping his victims was Robert McNamara whose behaviour at Secretary of Defense was followed by an admission of his errors and the utilization of the phrase McNamara's Folly for those who try to justify their immoral behavior.
If only we could get all those who blindly follow the utterly insane Reagan doctrine both Republican and Democrat to admit to its failure maybe you can save a country.
2
I'm reading some comments here that say he *asked* before he exposed himself. From what I gathered from the article, none of the women consented. He asked, and then proceeded to whip it out before his unfortunate onlookers could protest (thus the "apology"). How is this acceptable behavior in any way, shape, or form? It's sexual harassment, not a mating ritual or quirky form of courtship.
We're also hearing from the "it's-just-a-fetish" people here in these comments. Well, if you have a fetish, explore it with your wife or partner, or get some books/magazines/videos and knock yourself out. Don't involve unsuspecting colleagues or near-strangers. I can't believe that would even need to be said.
13
I'm not a fan of Louis. But I read his apology. Only it was not an apology, it was a confession. Unlike power hungry strong man denials by Trump, Weinstein, Spacey, Ailes, O'Reilly and Moore this guy might actually do something none of the others are ever likely to: stand up and with his confession in hand and start a very public men's movement against sexual harassment. I hope he does something bigger than his old self. In a curious way comedians rely on their and others vulnerability for their comedy. And if he truly wants to turn his stupid power trip into a cause for human dignity, his own vulnerability might just rehabilitate himself with a noble cause no other man is likely to accomplish. Louis: try, listen, confess some more, stand up before God and lead other power hungry sexual idiots to join you in becoming reformed human beings.
5
When these allegations about CK Lewis surfaced, some clips of his past shows were included in televised news reports about his masturbation fetish.
One clip of his act was FAR more disturbing than his penchant for exhibitionist masturbation. In it, he is laughing and commiserating with pedophiles about 'how hard it must be to stop sexually assaulting little boys because of how yummy they must taste'. Now THAT is beyond revolting.
On another note, why did the two women laugh, hug each other and scream...but stick around for the performance? Ignoring and leaving the room is always the best recourse. This perv obviously wanted an audience...why give it to him?
Another commenter said he had daughters. Sad.
3
The whole world is nuts. All you have to do is listen to Louis CK for five minutes and you know something is wrong with him. He's not funny. Just perverted. I don't think I'm prudish, but it's absolutely revolting to listen to him on stage. I guess some people think watching a pervert perform is funny.
I could be wrong, but it does seem that many people thought watching a pervert shoot off his mouth was funny. If you think I'm wrong, tell me... is he not a pervert?
The reason for the magnitude of the wave of stories, and the range of ickiness is that every woman we know has experienced some form or another. They are experiences that women never forget. Silence leaves women with all of the warping baggage of shame, revulsion, lack of confidence and worst, an unspeakable fear that they do not control their own destinies.
Some will say, "Louis C.K.'s actions were not as bad as Harvey Weinstein's. But likely what his victims experienced is probably not the only time in their lives that they've been subjected to harassment, actionable or not. It might be the worst or it might not be.
The important thing is to shine a light on what is really happening. Women should keep telling their stories and exposing the truth.
To all the people who don't seem to understand why what Louis C.K. did was wrong:
Imagine your mother was called into her boss's office. He asks your mother if it's okay for him to spit on her. Stunned, she doesn't know what to say, and he then spits on her. What he did wasn't necessarily criminal, but still it shouldn't have ever happened, especially in a professional setting by a superior. Your mother will feel uncomfortable at work, maybe even ashamed. She'll be afraid to be alone with him. Maybe she'll even have to get another job. Would you not demand that he be fired or at least face disciplinary action?
Louis C.K. knew what he was doing was wrong, intimidating, and inappropriate, but he did it anyway, and then got away with it. Apologies don't mean much when you then continue your predatory behaviour.
I get that you may like his comedy and even admire him. I myself was a fan of his comedy. And it's easy to say that he didn't do what Cosby or Weinstein did, so what's the big deal? But he still did something wrong and has to face the consequences. This tide of allegations is proof that women are sick of this behaviour going unchecked. Does he deserve to be burned at the stake? No. But surely he should not be allowed to just get away with behaving like that.
Keep it in your pants, unless it's in a private, personal setting and the person actually said the word 'yes' (without being coerced). Otherwise, face the consequences.
4
I’m wondering if there’s a way we can still see a person’s work as valuable, genius even, while condemning their actions? I don’t have the answer but I am struggling with the idea of mentally erasing Louis’s work as ‘bad’ (I’ve been a fan for years) because accusations have come forward. I think what he has done is vile. I also think what he has done work-wise is extremely intelligent, creative and funny. I’m trying to make space in my head that I can see this man in shades of grey, that I can have admiration and disgust for the same guy at the same time. Same with Kevin Spacey and so many others.
2
I wonder whet kind of umbrella liability insurance LCK has? Seems like some of the women (maybe all) he harassed have a valid legal claim, not to mention the numerous media companies he had dealings with that are shutting down projects after putting out a lot of money to create them.
I am a fan of Louis CK and have 2 daughters. I do not condone his behavior, but I also hope he bounces back from this. I believe his written apology was heartfelt. He is no Harvey Weinstein. Or Donald Trump. As a society we need to be careful not to lump all of these men in the same dirty bucket.
2
Louis CK just posted his apology.
If you want to get away with harassment, you need to:
a) Make a lot of money by gaining the admiration and trust of the general public;
b) Help other people make a lot of money (enablers!);
c) Be remorseful when the truth comes to light (Weinstein has yet to learn this one)
If Mr. C.K. had been fired from his early television producing job, as he should have been after asking someone to watch him masturbate at his desk, he would have never been as successful.
This is not the end of him, nor his career.
1
Just what the world needs, another self important Hollywood hypocrite devoting his life to warning men not to masturbate in front of women. sometime in the next five minutes the world will have become completely deaf to these brave women and Louie CK.
The truely bizzare thing here is that Woody Allen of all people called this right the day after the Weinstein story broke.
1
What? You think the Access Hollywood tapes aren’t going to be played continuously if Trump runs in 2020?? Thanks Lewis CK for being a real man. Now we have a standard to hold others to.
1
Too clever for his own good. The masturbation seems to be a calculated act. To keep his abuse to the level of - mere - sexual misconduct by not touching the women. But still degrading them and satisfying his sexual aggression.
4
As a man I can say I don't give two hoots about this. And I never will. When women start to have biologically driven sexual thoughts every 6 seconds I probably still won't care. Good luck ladies.
I've been a huge Louis C.K. fan for years. I'm sad that this has come out. I feel sorry for his family right now, as they must be mortified. I appreciate that he as admitted to his behavior instead of denying it. He hasn't committed any crime, as far as I can see. Unfortunately, he's got an ick factor associated with him now and his masturbation jokes don't seem funny any more. Turns out he doesn't just pretend to be a perv, he really is one.
2
Responding to an article on faith in WaPo, I wrote: Thank you, Ms. French, for explaining why women molested especially when they are young did not come forward then--the times were certainly not right then--and have been reluctant to do so even now. I think that it is worth noting that it is not only the Roy Moores of the world who must be reviled, but also their enablers, like the men and women of the sanctimonious sin-pit known as Fox News, with its molesters and its ambitious women ready to tolerate and conceal and defend on-the-job molestation for the sake advancement.
I would add as question: how credible are apologies by men disclosed to have behaved badly when they could well have made the disclosure and repented their behavior before they were outed?
1
That too many men have always felt superior to women and therefore a big sense of entitlement is not surprising to me. I have been sexually harassed a number of times. What shocks me is the absolute depravity of too many men - including Louis K.
While it doesn't make things any better, it was good to read his statement just reported in the NY Times where he admits to what he's done.
2
To any men claiming this is not misconduct, I have a couple of unprintable words to tell you that I refrain from posting in my comment so as not to violate the NY Times policy.
Here's empathy 101: if a person sees you in private about business-related matters, it's not ethical to turn it into an opportunity for sex, be it with yourself or with her. FULL STOP. NON-NEGOTIABLE.
2
Louis C.K.'s statement of apology, while it by no means exonerates his behavior, is at least the appropriate first step to address a terrible situation. It's worth noting that almost no one else accused recently has made this detailed an expression of remorse (if any at all). I hope he is as sincere as he seems, and that his message reaches others who might have emulated him. #MeToo
22
I'm astounded at the numbers of people who are commenting "at least he asked" without taking in the rest of it: he did not wait for most of these woman to say YES. The one who did so was unwilling but consented only because of his greater power and prestige. Anyone who coerces an unwilling consent is still committing assault, in my opinion.
So please, let's stop apologizing for Louis C.K.'s disgusting conduct. Unlike others, he may be owning it, and that's not nothing--but he does not deserve anyone's applause.
3
As women, we have become so inured to this behavior that even we have shrugged it off for centuries. That's just the way it is. Learn how to deal with it. A heart-felt apology and all is forgiven. And people wonder why women stay in abusive relationships...
Of the women involved, the one who was actually asked if he could do this, she said no. The others were just subjected to it to satisfy this man's fetish or "issues."
1
Louis CK- thank you for your admission. Your courage is admired. Let's all breathe and move on...............
1
Wasn't he thinking of running for the Senate? He will fit in perfectly!
1
louie c.k. what were you thinking..? have fun in prision..!
maybe you and harvey can bunk together..
Finally, this rising tide of backlash against the sexual misconduct of famous men has brought the wall-to-wall attention desperately needed to be paid the 16 different women raped and non-consensually sexually assaulted by the President of the United States! Oh, it hasn't? Why not? This man has been sexually assaulting women (that we know about) since at least 1992 and is the PRESIDENT!!!
2
Louis C. K. is a wonderful comedian and like all great comedians he had the courage to look in the mirror and say I don't like what I see. This does not make Louis C. K. a great man or a wise man it makes the kind of man we need most right now it makes Louis C. K. an honest man.
Two hundred years ago Thomas Chandler Haliburton the Nova Scotia writer and statesman told us what would bring us all to our knees.
"When a man a man is wrong and won't admit he always gets angry."
We are in the grasp of many very angry men, maybe Louis C.K. can help show us the way out. I hope Ryan, McConnell, Shumer and Clinton are all paying attention this is far more important than just sexual misconduct it is about a society addicted to self deception.We are all carrying around too much pain and anger.
Thank you Louis
2
And all you guys who are upset you have to take responsibility for your actions now and can't just blame women anymore?
You brought this change by voting for Trump.
Hope and change keep happening despite you.
instead of #metoo we need to change this to #himtoo
15
As CK has said you don’t know anybody
But apparently even when we do know, like in the case of Trump being accused by 12 women and admitting it on video tape we don’t care
And 53% of white female voters pulled the Trump lever.
So sexual harassment may finally be unacceptable and not hidden except for the most important job in the world.
Or as Trump said - he is above the law?
2
My first thought was good, he admitted it and he's sorry. But then I got to thinking. I think it was disingenuous for him to say that in reflection he realized it was wrong. I believe he knew it was wrong the moment he whipped it out. No, prior to that. When he asked if it was okay. He was creating a situation designed to amuse himself. And he knew right then it was wrong. I wish he had admitted this, and I would have thought he was at least being honest. It's not too late for him to try to make amends by perhaps dedicating some time to selflessly promoting women in comedy. For me, he doesn't get off this easy even if he's taken more steps than most.
4
Well, that was a pretty solid admission and apology. What the women involved think obviously matters most, their inclination to forgive or not, but words matter and he used some very good words.
2
I think we as a society cross a line when we label people as unredeemable. Yes, this behavior crossed a line, yes he should be called out for it. But if a person is able to truly realize the wrong of their actions, the pain they caused, and change, I think we need to give that weight too. The harm he caused shouldn't be minimized, but if we don't allow for people capable of rehabilitation to do that work and be forgiven, even slightly, we're denying them a chance at grace.
4
This one doesn't surprise me. That guy is just plain creepy. I never thought he was the least bit funny. Just gross. We should buy an island somewhere and exile these sicko creeps. It's going to have to be a lot bigger than anticipated. Maybe Trump could build a hotel on it. He would be right at home.
67
I think we are all in for more surprises, like how many of these "famous" people surrounded the Clintons.
1
I think it would help if men received more help in dealing with their own victimization from sexual abuse. I wonder if CK was sexually abused over a period of time, yet did not have a healthy way to deal with it and recover, so it came out sideways through comedy.
Not letting him off the hook. He is fully responsible for his own behavior. But there is this huge gorilla in the room no one is dealing with.
How many of these sexual predators were powerless victims themselves at one time in their lives? How do we help those of them who are or were? And how do we prevent this societal illness from maintaining itself?
I don't laugh so hard at a lot of male comedians, in particular. I often hear/feel their pain. And it's way too sad that we champion men who are funny, aggressive, vulgar, drunk/drugged, hypersexual or unfaithful, when often this is just a cover for their unspeakable pain.
No one's off the hook here because we're all on the hook together until this is addressed on a global level.
I want to thank Louis C.K. for his honesty and his apology and for taking responsibility on this issue. This is so much more than most of the men involved can muster. Hopefully now there can be healing for him and for his victims.
9
As repulsive as his actions were, at least Louis CK did, finally, acknowledge his actions, apologize generally for them, and recognize the responsibility he has for dealing with his behavior and mindset. It may not be much or enough for those he harmed, but it is more than the many other newly 'outed' men have done.
12
First I was shocked at the grossness and vulgarity of his acts...cannot imagine the ongoing pain for the victims...in fact for all the victims of the predators...
Then, I am equally amazed by his articulate apology.
And, of course, before anyone destroys me, surely the apology is insufficient in of itself, but its a helluva lot more than Harvey or O'Reilly or the other dozens of other predators have done...
13
According to the New York Times, Louis CK states, "I said to myself that what I did was O.K. because I never showed a woman my dick without asking first".
So Louis, you JUST NOW understand that it is NOT OK to show your d$ck to a woman without asking first. Which means that you did not understand it a year ago. Otherwise, you would have approached these five women and asked for forgiveness. [ let's assume that it is ONLY five women, according to the New York Times. ]
That means that if either of your two daughters were interviewing for a job with me a year ago and I were to ask either Kitty or Mary Louise if I could show either of your daughters my d$ck, if either of your two daughters replied, "yes", you would be OK with that?
A year ago, you would be perfectly comfortable with any man exposing himself to either of your two daughters. As long as he asked first.
9
I think he knew that all along. That's why when he asked an adult of consenting age if he could do that, he thought it was ok. He is now stating that he should not have put them in that position, because they had put him in their mind as a "mentor", though I am not sure they made that clear to him that this was the role they were placing him in. He may have put them in the category as peer comics of consenting age. Not really made clear in description if they actually consented. Or if they laughingly said "sure", or if he just proceeded when they laughed. If they laughingly consented....they consented. If he just proceeded without the affirmative, then he was engaging in an indecent act.
3
There's a thin line between being a just a "freak" vs. being a "pervert" and one is protected by the U.S. Constitution, the other not so much. Subsequent-act political correctness application is a slippery slope.
4
At what point in a person’s career does the power distance become so large that asking a woman to watch you masturbate becomes an unchecked thought, especially to someone you just met?
7
What the heck is wrong with that guy? What is wrong with our country? So many behaviors in our society, from mass murders, road rage, and truly pathetic things like these allegations, for which I have no frame of reference to even comprehend...
4
This is nothing new. This happens to so many women. We just don't know how to react sometimes. I had a "friend" or mutual friend and anyway - one time I accidentally saw his _____. He started flirting with me. Once we kissed but then that was it. Anyway now and again he'll just message me and immediately starts in with just dick jokes or ...basically just really perverted jokes of any kind aimed at specifically me, doing things with me, etc. even if I'm in an irritable mood. Even if I'm dating someone. It's almost like he couldn't help it or was that stupid or something. And I had to laugh it off because what do I do? Get offended? I let him know it was inapropriate but he just laughs it off. But it happens. Men are constantly putting women in uncomfortable positions. Why? I have ZERO clue. But it's really f***in annoying guys. Get your sh** together and just act like a basic person.
4
Hey, he said these things are true, which is more than a lot of these baboons are copping to....
6
While disgusting behavior by Louis CK for sure, i also have to question the behavior of the two women in the hotel room. Really.... they were so "paralyzed" that they couldn't walk out of the room immediately..... but once he finished his task at hand they could?? It sounds like they weren't the wilting flowers they claimed but rather curious spectators. And if they were too terrified to leave because of fears about their careers, what does that say about their judgement. I'm not siding with any kind of sexual abuse but some of this stuff really makes me wonder where the truth lies.
6
Louis CK just put out a sober and mature response taking responsibility.
This should be a start.
I would hope that a talented and thoughtful individual can still redeem himself these days, especially considering Marv Albert was very visibly back to work within 2 years after his famous and decidedly more physical sexual assault case.
7
50 years of the National Organization for Women. Clearly an abject failure.
There ARE other careers out there. You DO NOT have to sell your soul or your body for money. I know its not fair, but take another route if the route you see in front of you means your own personal prostitution...unless of course you are OK with it.
The people who keep silent about abhorrent behavior are complicit in the experiences subsequent people encounter with that offender.
Shame on all the people who did so, for they, almost as much as the offenders, are responsible for the trauma of the others that could have been avoided. Silence is consent.
I do not excuse the offender. There are sick people out there, both male and female. I honestly never understood predatory and deviant sexual behavior. I was a victim of an attempted gay rape at age 14...it ended with him masturbating instead....then threatened to kill me if I told anyone. I have carried the guilt of my silence since, and others were harmed after me.
But, while I was victim then, I am not now, many decades later. I did not have a choice in my attack, it was in the dark in the woods walking on a trail I did not know well enough to run. I learned from it, and never put myself is such a situation again. Those that willingly allowed themselves in such circumstances, then kept silent about it...are also a problem. They feed the sickness of the offender.
To err is human; to forgive, divine.
8
Next: The record industry.
Young male and female musicians looking for a break and getting called to the office of so-and-so to "talk about their career."
Just wait, everyone. It'll make this seem like a blip.
It's coming.
7
In regard to Louis C.K.’s published apology and these allegations. It seems to me he has tried to formulate some reason as to “why” (albeit lame) and appears to take responsibility but it still baffles me. His actions are not an anomaly. How do men NOT know that this is wrong, disgusting and highly charged with problems? Is there a sub culture teaching boys learn this and grow up and behave this way that I’m not able to see? Like platform 9 3/4?
Louis C.K. Responds to Accusations: ‘These Stories Are True’
7
He's just in denial, trying to make sense of his compulsions, and so are some of his fans. Men in general consider this crazy behavior -- like ranting incoherently on a street corner, but worse for the victims because it's sexual and because of the buainess relationship.
See the story about the jail guards and public defenders suing Cook County for this very thing.
Too many of the reader comments on this article are disturbing, in that they seem to indicate the only thing wrong with C.K.s unasked public masterbation in front of a stranger was that he continued it after the woman said no or seemed discomforted; it would have been OK if she had said "Please do", on par with being asked "Mind if I smoke?" I have to believe that at least a few of Weinstein's victims actually liked his horrible behavior and wound up not only saying yes but enjoying it. Does this make what he did OK for those women, but wrong for everyone else?
No - it was wrong across the board! Don't you see that someone performing sex acts in front of strangers in ANY circumstance (let alone a mentoring/professional situation) is immoral regardless of if the recipient is willing or not? Some things are just plain wrong--no Ifs, Ands, or Buts. The Coasts' morals have gone completely off the rails, if they exist at all anymore!
10
Not clear if this argument is primarily premised on the idea of an abuse of position or the idea that it is always wrong to ask a “stranger” to witness (or participate in) a sexual act (or both).
It can’t be the case that those in positions of power are always wrong to proposition those with less power for sex. If that were the case, one could only (morally) propose sex with one’s equal in power. Millions of happy couples are the product of relationships in which one partner wielded some influence over the other in day-to-day life. Furthermore, sex researchers have repeatedly shown that power dynamics are a key ingredient in sexual attraction. Denying that fact is just willful ignorance.
Instead, the test for inappropriate sexual propositions must be the direct or implicit threat of the wielding of that unequal power to cause harm (or benefit) to the other.
That seems like the right test and was clearly evident in what we read about Weinstein’s actions.
It also can’t be the case that one is always wrong to proposition “strangers” for sex. If Louis had hit it off with a random person at the bar and then asked them if they “wanted to go back to his place and mess around,” I️ think the moral outrage is gone (or greatly diminished). It’s the abruptness and surprise and the fact that it’s a somewhat deviant request that is driving much of the moral outrage here.
His actions are grotesque, and he should pay the price for it, meanwhile in Bethlehem, I mean Alabama, the new Jesus is being crucified, or so they say!!
3
I never thought he was funny. Now I see why.
7
Dude's apology makes him out to be a victim of his brilliance and celebrity. Not funny.
7
Coming from a big fan of Louis CK and a male: no excuses. You (Louis) will be able to deflect a certain amount of criticism because you have an innate understanding of human behavior and a talent for explication, but there's no ridding yourself of the justified hit your career can and should take following these accusations.
Time to face the music. I'm tired of these lesser men abusing their particular station in life, as if accumulating a little money and power is an excuse to treat the other gender with such disregard. Tired of feeling like acting with basic human decency is some burden men have to overcome. You and those who have acted similarly are simply the weak and insecure, not to mention the vast minority, and I know I speak for most men when I say I'm tired of footing your bill.
16
Louis CK has now apologized for what he did. However, he still doesn't seem to get what these actions say about him. Yes, the fact that he was well known and the women were afraid that he could hurt their career was a factor. However, the behavior would have been despicable and completely inappropriate even if he was an unknown.
As far as I can tell from the stories, there was no sexual lead-up to his actions in any of the cases. They were either professional situations or friendly gatherings. He just asked these women if he could masturbate in front of them out of the blue. That is the behavior of a disturbed individual.
Louis CK doesn't just need to apologize. He needs to admit he has a mental illness and needs help. And then he needs to go get that help. Without that, he is likely to do it again.
7
So now that it's affected his bottom line he's apologized. Will men start to call each other out for this when they see it, and perhaps more importantly, will society stop blaming victims for their responses and start blaming the perpetrators for the behaviors? That's the litmus test. I don't have much faith but I do have hope.
4
So she could tell he was masturbating during their phone conversation..."but she didn't know how to end it.."
Hang up!!
32
If we put all of our sexual activities in the public eye I bet everyone would feel shame, that is why sex is such a tabu. So Louis C.K., as I see it did´t do anything illegal, he just asked adults about something sexual and they could easily answer yes or no. So he is being judge by his sexual conduct and nothing else. If everyone had all his private life thrown into the public eye I am positive everyone will judge and disapprove.
If this two girls at the hotel in ASPEN knew what kind of comedian he is (which they knew),with all the explicit sexual content in his act, why were they expecting a different behaviour in private? So in his comedy act OK and in his hotel room with two adults who went there by themselves is a career ender? I do not agree. It is pure hypocrisy and it has to end now. It is a witch hunt that is getting nowhere and is destroying peoples lives.
Louis is a brilliant performer who needs his life as fuel for his act i do not think it is proper or fair to judge him in a public square like this. I am outraged by people judging private lives.
At the end this two girls could easily get up and leave the room, the others could have said no. Problem solved. That is what adults do, make decisions. So I ponder this two girls stayed at the hotel room just to rub it to his face 10 years later... interesting.
21
No one is talking about Louis CK's private behavior. These were professional relationships he betrayed. Given his choices, the term 'witch hunt' does not apply. If he had privately and sincerely apologized to the women involved--and instructed his manager to give them every consideration in professional booking opportunities--this may never have become public. Instead, he ignored the allegations and later denied them. His public statement was telling. His past rationalization re. 'asking' first fails to acknowledge that asking to expose himself in and of itself constitutes harassment among colleagues. The statement expressed regret but no apologies to the women involved nor acknowledgement of his previous public denials. That he claims it did not occur to him that his unreleased film has content akin to the accusations speaks to a breathtaking level of denial. The fact that he never considered the impact of the film and its press on the women who suffered his behavior belies his claim to have evolved in his thinking. Unless the thinking involved was dodging accountability.
4
They're WOMEN.
2
For all the commenters who claimed this was women lying to undermine LCK, I hope you've now read his statement where he admits that these events are true. I hope you will reflect on your quickness to discredit the victims of this abuse.
26
So Louis CK made sexual overtures directly to 4 of these women, who then either agreed to or declined the advances, and CK then acted accordingly? And with the 5th woman, he attempted to have phone sex with, but it was apparently 1-sided, but she didn't hang-up and instead let him continue on the other end?
And CK has tried to apologize for his "misreading" to the woman who had declined and the one on the phone?
These are now all somehow "sexual misconduct"?
What in the world is wrong here? Three women agreed to his advances, one didn't, and the phone one didn't hang-up. And he later apologized to the last two.
I get that we're in this societal witch hunt right now for sexual assaulters, but come on Times, this "expose" is nothing but sensationalism, and it's smearing of CK and clumping him with the Weinstein/Spacey group is reprehensible.
16
Honestly, what are you talking about? Agreed to his advances. Normal human beings are stunned by such outrageous departures of normal decency. They don't react because they are in a state of shock. News flash: you don't masturbate in front of people who work for you.
3
The sickening way he treats his own daughters as fodder for his completely unfunny stand up is enough to disqualify him for any consideration as a serious artist or a decent human being. Without him sucking all the air out of the comedy business I hope comedy fans will give some of the under-recognized talent out there a closer look. Good riddance to a man who lowered the bar for his craft instead of raising it.
12
If the two comedians he exposed himself to hadn't been so shocked, I'd like to think their comic instincts would have kicked in and belittled him, along the lines of "What is that? It looks like a penis, only smaller." They could have wrecked him, standing there with his member in his hand!
12
Reading these comments leaves me with the realization that there are lots and lots of angry misogynists out there.
29
Yea. That's the easy way out-- just call 'em all misogynists. Otherwise, there is no valid point to their argument is there?
People are innocent until proven guilty is our attempt at fairness. But for argument's sake--let's assume he is guilty. Let's assume Bill Cosby, William Shakespeare, Michael Jackson, Harvey Weinstein and Van Gogh were guilty of sexual harassment, rape or murder. If that is true, they should be punished by society just like anyone else. But that guilt has nothing to do with their art, their product. It does not change one word of "War and Peace" or "Hamlet" or "The Cosby Show", "Man in the Mirror" or "Starry night". But it is extremely hard to divorce message and messenger; especially in a culture that is obsessed with celebrities. (Disclaimer: WS, VG and Tolstoy were not accused to my knowledge--but then, ignorance is bliss)
4
He actually just admitted it and issued an apology that reads very well. I read it expecting to hate him and pounce on a non-apology apology line, but he sounds like someone who actually is going to "seek treatment" although he spares us that trite line.
He's either much smarter than the rest of them or he's actually not a giant creep. Or maybe he's lucky enough that the statutes of limitation have run in the respective jurisdictions.
15
His letter reads like someone who actually took responsibility in his private life for this behavior long ago, which is why he was able to express himself as maturely as he did.
It's highly unlikely that someone who thought there was nothing wrong with what he did on Wednesday could come up with that statement by Friday.
1
Louis C.K's statement is spot on.
Appears real and heartfelt.
He's a good man, a great comic, who, like everyone, has foibles and missteps.
Some healing remains. . . but in time it will be fair to ask: Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but don’t consider the beam that is in your own eye?
Louis C,K, has much good yet to give.
22
Masturbating in front of women who have no interest in your penis is not about sex -- it is about power. Namely, who has it and who doesn't. It is about how power is used to help you or to hurt you. It is about how power is used to keep you small and scared and compliant. I'm tired of hearing about how these men think they are going to mend their reputations by engaging in some sort of rehab for a sex addiction. They need treatment for their deep seated feelings of inadequacy and the unhealthy ways they have found to defend against that. It is a long road and it should not be a public road.
11
Well the Defense of this obscene, abusive, and seemingly illegal behavior should slow down a little since he claims responsibility.
5
The statement Louis C.K. just released saying the stories are true and that he is sorry not only for the incidents but for the long term problems his behavior caused to some of the women is welcome. Remorseful, honest, thoughtful.
This is the intelligent, self-aware person I've always assumed Louis C.K. to be. I don't want to watch his tv show or go to his concerts anymore because of these revelations.
But he's the first celebrity to face such accusations who has had the decency to admit they're true and say he's sorry and that he's thinking about how his behavior hurt people.
If it's possible to show class in such a miserable situation, his statement showed class.
21
Decades ago, Franz Boas claimed that Inuit people have forty words for snow. Given the blizzard of revelations in the past week, I’m beginning to wonder if, in accusations of abuse of power and sexual deviancy among male celebrities, important distinctions are being effaced. Isn’t there any difference between a serial rapist and a mere creep, fetishist, indecent proposer or run of the mill jerk who makes a crass comment? I don’t doubt that the victims of this behavior are all in some way scarred, and that many of them felt their careers were affected (or were demonstrably affected). Yet while there is undeniably some benefit to having this issue come to light, to me there’s something disturbing about the glee with which careers are being ruined and one’s own behaviors and desires (including desire for power) being left unexamined. The iconoclasm seems merely the reverse side of celebrity worship, and it all smells so very American.
11
I’m getting mighty tired of the contrite apologies these men give once they get caught, as if that makes everything okay.
You can’t tell me that at the time they didn’t know that what they were doing was wrong, or that they were unaware of the effects they were having on their victims. The length of time that this behavior was going on, as well as the number of women involved, show crass indifference and stunning arrogance.
By all means, express your regrets, acknowledge your personal weaknesses, and contemplate the error of your ways. But understand that all of that now is too little, too late — tell it to the judge.
9
Last night I posted that I believed these stories were untrue and that the women who reported them this late in the game were partially to blame b/c they should have come forward earlier. I also said that my mind would not be changed about my respect for Louis until he was proven to be guilty in a court of law. Now that he has admitted these allegations are true, I need take the time to openly admit how wrong I was, and express that I have lost respect for Louis CK and for myself in some ways b/c I equated these allegations with the current “witch hunt” for men which was not right of me. Now would be a good time for men, myself included, to acknowledge our shortcomings, our arrogance, and propensity for pretending rampant sexism in our culture doesn’t exist. To those women and the women in my life who would expect better of me, I am sorry, can be better and plan to listen more and talk less about the subject.
35
Wow. Thank you. I also thank him for frankly taking responsibility for what he's done. So far, he's the only one in all of these cases.
5
I just read his statement and in many ways he’s as brave as his accusers. He seems to humbly acknowledge his responsibility for hurting many people directly and indirectly and says he’s willing to listen and reflect. I accept that and thank him.
18
It's not close (comparing bravery with the victims) but I admit he's braver than the many other perv cowards out there and he actually gets a level of respect from me for admitting it publicly.
Jodi, can you please research for us.
When did we as a society become numb to curse words and foul mouthed lyrics in:
comedy
rap music
hip hop
Tv and movies
How can we clean ourselves up? For the sake of an entire new generation. I feel sad my kids (mow in their mid to upper 20s) were exposed to so much nonsense in the name of the "arts".
3
It makes one question a lot of things. It surely explains his bits and premises and makes me worry that some of his other stuff might also be thinly veiled personal behavior.
1
Meanwhile, at the Long Island hospital I work at, my manager allowed one of his workers to sexually harass women who also work for him. This information was given to HR and Compliance, but of course, nothing is done. The reason, he isn't famous and neither are we so the "run of the mill" sexual harassment that is persuasive across all work places continues with only lip service paid to it.
Maybe, the NYT's can find time to see what those of us in low paying jobs have to put up with from the men we work with.
26
@const: this took place in a hospital setting? I cringe at the thought of the harasser having access to patients.
Note: Contrary to popular belief, the HR Department is in place to protect not the employees, but the company.
4
Please name him. We must protect one another.
1
Just like all those mad killer that guns down people, anyone who uses other people for their sexual fantasies without asking permission is very sick. They need serious help. They need counselors so that they wouldn't hurt others. But we don't care enough about others so I don't know what to do. I honestly don't care about these celebrities and I don't really like that show biz industry. I may like some of their art products but I don't know them personally so I don't care about individuals in these types of news. I suppose it's up to the individuals to decide whether or not they need help and actually seek those services. They're usually not free if it's professional help so maybe that's why people don't get the help they need.
2
Networks and media organizations only distance themselves from these men after it goes public. Yet, they fail to act in the years and decades before when victims of harassment and abuse plea for help. It's always been about what affects their profits, not what their conscience guides. Let's not fool ourselves.
For every perpetrator that is now being exposed, there are dozens who are still getting a pass because someone else thinks they'll lose money by removing them.
27
Another day, another politician's or celebrity's career destroyed by an accusation of sexual misconduct. The way this keeps is always the same. Someone makes an accusation, maybe of something that happened decades earlier, a few others jump in to say "he did it to me too," and the punishment and shaming process commences.
As a criminal-defense attorney, this bothers me. Shouldn't there be a space in between the accusation and the punishment to investigate the incidents and find evidence that they ACTUALLY HAPPENED? This is starting to look a lot like a new form of McCarthyism.
7
He admitted it to be true. It's no longer an "accusation". Furthermore, for every woman who comes forward, there are many more who say nothing. Every friend of mine and our daughters have experienced harassment in the work place. Precious few of us have reported it. There is no witch hunt. Only an ice berg tip.
3
He admitted to the sexual misconduct.
1
No there shouldn’t be such a time. Women or men should be able to make accusations at whatever time they find the courage to do so.
Thank you for this article. The only way the patriarchal abuse of power will be held accountable is by exposure. I️ applaud these women for coming forward. It doesn’t matter how long ago.
The comments to this article are astounding. Can we all agree that unsolicited masturbation from another is not okay? Particularly in the workplace? I️ don’t care if happened 100 years ago. Like, get a room Louis, by yourself.
8
I wish all of these horrible sexual behaviors by Weinstein, Louie CK, Roy Moore, Kevin Spacey and on and on would lead to an investigation also of Trump and his disgraceful behavior towards women. When the person with the most power in the world has been left alone by the press, why should any guy believe there are consequences to pay? None of the above are being arrested. Where are the criminal charges? Let's get real people and start making more noise until the authorities start arresting these fools. They are giving all men a bad name.
11
Well Louis, you've been testing it and now you definitely know what unfunny is.
5
Loiuis C.K., here is some advice: Get right back on the stand-up circuit. Stream shows on your own website. You will have an audience as long as your jokes are funny. And you now have material that is as fresh and of the moment as any comedian could hope for. To those who are offended, stay home!
8
That won't happen at least anytime soon. Even if he sponsored himself he probably couldn't get any one to rent him a venue. Maybe a Youtube channel if he's lucky. I hope I'm wrong. He's probably the top comedic entertainer right now.
Another male feminist is a pervert. Who would have thought?
Seriously why do guys do it. I'm not talking about the act just why do they do it with people they work with. If everyone had Mike Pence's attitude there would be no problem.
2
So now Mike Pence is going to be the one to take apart our chauvinistic culture? What? Seriously?
Oh, there's a whole new set of problems with Pence's attitude.
You know people make jokes about Mike Pence not wanting to be alone in a room with women, but I see his point. One private meeting behind a closed door can turn into an accusation and destroy a career, a marriage and a reputation.
I am very concerned about women’s safety, I have been confided in on two occasions where close friends admitted to date rape. In both cases the women chose to remain silent. It’s not for me to judge silence, I believe it actually took enormous bravery to tell anyone. What motivates harm against others is undoubtedly wide ranging as well as and I feel most importantly intent. I know the reasons are very real for some to remain quiet at the same time I feel strongly yet cautiously suggest that the devil is in the details. Sincerity and intent as judged by others will vary wildly. With so many accusations these days and I fear the motivations for accusation varies I think the take away has to be dialogue in and around theses moments. Reading so many of these accounts I feel much of the story remains untold for better or worse(innocence or guilt). This is why “No” means no ultimately carries so much weight. I think it’s impossible to avoid conflicts of interest and in these scenarios intent is everything. Specifically for me this story imagines much different intent than say the Weinstein accounts. Those who allow and perpetuate a climate for hush are often most guilty as we are reminded that the cover up is frequently more damaging than the offense. I’ll keep raising my daughter to be wary but most importantly empowered to voice concerns when they arise because the numbers suggest they no doubt will.
1
I don't know what to say other than "Eeww"! Unfortunately, men (and women) who should take Louis C.K.'s disgrace as a warning will probably pay little attention.
I heard C.K. interviewed by Terry Gross a few months ago and he mentioned that he was in a good relationship, so perhaps that has helped turn him around. Too bad for him, as so many men are now learning, the past is never erased.
5
This is the SAME Hollywood that awarded an Oscar, its most coveted prize, to Roman Polanski. The audience of his Hollywood peers, male and female, gave him a standing ovation that night. Polanski was and still is A CONVICTED child rapist and fugitive from justice.
11
there is a matter of degree here that you are ignoring.
These allegations are true. I heard them years ago through the grapevine. This is not some bandwagon, caught up in the moment kind of thing. This is abusive, sexually predatory behavior, period. No excuses LCK fans, please.
7
Re: the hotel allegation (back when Louie was a minor, minor star) where the two women go back to Louie's hotel room and at some point he starts masturbating. Why in the world did they stay? As a male I would have out of room before he finished unbuckling his pants. Am I missing something? We're these women scared? I'm sure if he had been blocking the door they would have included that in their story. Are we not allowed to ask these questions?
13
Criminal sexual assault should absolutely be punished. But as a feminist, I'm a little troubled by how some of these recent accounts cast women as powerless creatures who are in perpetual danger and in need of protection via public condemnation of any questionable behavior. It's the modern version of the chastity belt--paternalistic patriarchy.
I further wonder whether lumping C.K. in with the likes of Weinstein is really productive. Weinstein is said to have threatened and blocked women from escaping, which is far more egregious behavior.
I find it odd too that his very specific propositioning of these women ("can I masturbate in front of you?") seems to be used as evidence of his depravity. Gaining clear consent for sexual encounters is de rigueur across our nation's colleges and universities. Today, it's considered the "correct" (though incredibly awkward) thing to do. Indeed, he did not masturbate in front of the one woman who gave a clear "no."
He seems to have genuine compulsion for which he needs help. It reminds me of an event I had all but forgotten about: while in college, I witnessed a woman masturbate in a public bathroom on campus. I mostly just felt sorry for her. Humans are strange and troubled and troubling and often just plain pathetic. We might benefit from acknowledging that. This situation seems to demand a more nuanced reading than simple indignation.
21
I agree.
@Chris
An incredibly mature, well-thought assessment. While I not for one second endorse unwanted sexual assault in ANY form, I can see sickness -- mental illness -- as perhaps the driving force behind such out-there behavior. All of us behave only as well as our brain's condition permits. Lewis C.K. appears to epitomize this. What happened to these women is horrible.
Lewis C.K. appears to me to be an ultimately tragic case of deep-seated sickness, the treatment of his type being unfortunately exceptionally difficult to treat successfully.
Pervert. I know no man who would casually ask a female friend, co-worker, casual acquaintance, or stranger if she would be OK with watching him masturbate in front of her. Only a deeply disturbed crazy perverted individual would make that request and expect anything other than a "no," revulsion and a call to the cops.
The next step for this pervert would be doing it in front of kids or anyone who happened to have the misfortune of being near him in private or in public. He is a deeply sick man and I hope his wife keeps their kids far from him as well as any children who are friends of theirs. This guy needs an "audience" in order to "perform" -- how long before he acts an audience that has paid to see his comedy routine if it's OK for him to masturbate in front of them as part of the "act?"
10
All you have to do is watch 5 minutes of C.K. Louis’ act to know he’s a pervert.
But I saw on a news show yesterday a clip of his act that disturbed me far more than him asking females if he could masturbate in front of them. There’s a clip that shows him laughing and commiserating about how hard it must be for pedophiles to stop abusing little boys because ‘can you imagine how good they must taste?’ The audience was laughing along.
Absolutely nauseating.
15
Your criticism, and claim to have watched his act, would have more weight if you either (a) accurately quoted the routine (you didn't) or (b) knew that his name was "Louis C.K.," rather than "C.K. Louis."
1
If a man invites two adult woman to his hotel room for a night cap, they should consider the possibility that they are getting a sexual proposition no matter how "collegial" his intentions seem. And if his first move is to ask if he can take out his penis, then they should conclude that they have gotten a proposition and leave if they aren't interested.
22
The problem is that in the arts, including comedy/tv, a lot of business is conducted after hours. Your position-- the Mike Pence position-- is that women should abstain from such opportunities, which gives men a professional advantage. I can see how this would benefit men, but women are best off learning self-defense and being prepared to walk out and publicize immediately.
3
Bingo - women are disadvantaged when they cannot participate in after hour activities the same as the men do. In the late 80's professional women could not go have a beer with a client after hours so the men in the firm's had all of the relationships with male clients and it furthered their careers more so than females could.
3
I have to give him credit for not denying it, and standing up, admitting these allegations are true.
Maybe Donald Trump and Roy Moore can take a little guidance and come clean, now.
14
Louis C.K. has more integrity than Donald Trump or Roy Moore.
1
In all these cases, the victims are heroic to speak up. They help all victims.
I was molested for years as a child by my aunt, and later by a female teacher when I was in 8th grade. And my mother "accidentally" managed to expose herself to me dozens of times during my youth. My mother and her sister--the molesting aunt--had both been physically abused by their mother when they were little girls. I never said anything, and felt the same shame, confusion, and fear expressed by all those coming forward now in the media.
Those women and men who are speaking up about their abusers help us all feel less alone.
I thank them.
10
Now that he's confirmed that what these women are saying is true, change your language away from "accused" and "alleged." Although a sensible precaution when you begin reporting, you owe an update to readers and your language should stop casting doubt on these women.
6
Remember how disgusted Martin Luther became with the Catholic Church, such that he publicly posted his 95 theses, which led to the Protestant Reformation?
Here are Susan’s 5 Theses, a simple guide for adult male behavior. Apparently men have completely lost their way in the confusing thicket of sexuality. Follow each of these precepts and you need not fear career annihilation. Or prosecution. Or being tarred and feathered in a public square.
1. Thou shalt not talk about, act out or force any woman to engage with you sexually when you are the more powerful party.
2. If a person who is female is less than 18 years old, thou shalt not spend any unsupervised time with them and do not contact them via telephone, cell phone, computer or snail mail.
3. Thou shalt not speak ill of or cast aspersions on a woman who turns down your offer of sex.
4. If we need you for sex, even though thy brethren give us fewer and fewer reasons for it, we will let you know. We cannot be drunk or high or threatened with violence when we say so: if we are in any of those conditions, we cannot properly be consenting.
5. If any or all of these points seem draconian or make you very, very angry, it is time for you to withdraw from polite society. We no longer care why you disrespect a woman or women and we will not tolerate your behavior.
Women are full human beings who exist to live as we choose, on our own terms. We’d like to share life and end strife. Do better, Men. Much better.
12
Louis C.K. now suddenly realize his behavior was wrong..
He realizes it was wrong, because he got caught. At the time, it was just fun to humiliate women. And the humiliation and power he had over these women was the point. In the end, all of these violations are exercises of power over weaker, poorer, less famous, younger people by stronger, richer, more famous, older people. Let's not forget that. Gay or straight, on Wall Street, in Hollywood, within marriages, gay or straight...it is about power. Sex is only the excuse.
9
If you want to read about Kevin Spaceys issue with sexual harassment you have to hit search. Even as they unfold day after day. If you want to read about Louis CK it is right on the front page. I gather from that the NY Times has something in for Louis CK. His apology was refreshing and unusual compared to how the rest of the assumed innocent have reacted. With his apology he will probably become a tragic figure and become more famous than ever. Hopefully he always carries hand sanitizer.
7
You must not look at the news very often, Kevin Spacey was front page news for days. There's actually a blurb about him on the front page today.
This is so not OK, Louis C.K.
4
Diogen did it once upon a time in Greece, in public. Masturbating in house is normal and every male does it, but it's a sexual harassment to ask someone to watch you while you do it? Isn't that hypocritical? No one forced these women to watch him. What's disgusting is to complain about it afterwards once when you agreed. It's hypocrisy, envy and bitterness at his success more than anything else. Huge support for L.C.K.!
4
The terrible irony in all of this is Louis probably could have gotten himself a girlfriend who was open to this type of interaction instead of pulling in unwitting targets. Now he has destroyed his career and any good that has come from his life will be tainted by these transgressions.
He obviously needs therapy, and hopefully he can turn this around and show that sexual deviancy can be treated - and return to a normal life.
4
This isn't about sex with a willing partner. It's about a need to degrade women and show power over them.
3
The unwittingness of the targets was probably part of what made these interactions pleasing to him.
2
The misconduct, distilled:
Louis C.K. asked four women if he could masturbate in front of them. One agreed, and two "laughed off" the request, then hugged each other, "screaming and laughing," as the comedian masturbated. Another woman refused C.K's request and chided him for asking, and he apologized. He also apologized to a woman for masturbating while he was talking to her on the telephone. Everything else is commentary. To label what Louis C.K. did as 'misconduct,' is fine, but some perspective is needed here.
Perspective is called for here.
21
Ooh, mansplaining. How exciting.
You must have read a different article.
2
You miss the point that he held sway over careers, livelihoods....just like weinstein. And countless others, obviously.
2
Perspective indeed. Now go back over this misconduct and see if you'd feel differently about it if it was done to your mother, sister, wife or daughter.
1
Whenever I find myself dismissing such behavior with a shrug I check myself by asking "if the the shoe was on the other foot test " how would I feel if a powerful woman in the same industry I worked feel if she asked me if she could masturbate in front of me? silly erotic fantasies asides, I would be disgusted and fearful of ever seeing that person again. Just because something is not criminal does not mean it is at all socially acceptable.
7
Was there ever a woman who responded positively to his advances? If such a woman exists I would like to hear how she thought he was cute and his clumsy attempt at foreplay led to a consensual sexual encounter. He seems gross to me but I bet he was successful with many. They are now shamed from responding.
Why do we only hear from those who turned him down or those who said yes as a joke and are now saying they did not mean it? He did not jump out of the bushes and molest them.
As far as I can see he had no influence on those women’s careers. When no was said he moved on. This whole thing minimizes the true harm caused by Weinstein, Spacey, and their ilk.
7
PS: on the cultural front...to say nothing of the affect of the internet on masturbation and objectification of women. And, the long held beliefs that men cannot "help" themselves, obvious in the fashion rules especially for High schoolers suggesting that girls' choice of clothes impelled these impulses in men...(who cannot help themselves).. We are mind body spirit and when these are divorced, sicknesses emerge...
2
This is a ps to an earlier comment I made: The problem is in our culture at large. We are so messed up about sexuality. Sex is used in advertisements to make sales. It is condemned by certain religious organizations, belittled, made evil; sex offenders who are released from jail are treated worst than murders. We seem not to understand its power, its impulse...relationships are de-contextualized until it seems we have fully prostituted our society. It is no accident that stories of these "inappropriate" actions should be emerging. What is surprising as how little discussion there is on how we look at this problem to go forward and bring the discussion of sexuality, how we see and use it into full purview.
Where are some commenters getting the idea that the woman consented? He pulled out his penis, two said, and they were shocked and "paralysed."
One -on the phone - wasn't given a choice at all; he just started in. And one felt compelled. And where does the idea come from that exposing yourself and masturbating isn't predatory as well as criminally punishable behavior? Part of the perpetrator's thrill is the victim's fear and discomfort. Weinstein also did this. Also many points being missed again about the dominant male cultures that cover for the powerful and meet out retribution on the victims.
"Hoping that outrage would build against Louis C.K., and also to shame him, they began telling others about the incident the next day. But many people seemed to recoil, they said. Barely 24 hours after they left Louis C.K.’s hotel, “we could already feel the backlash.”
22
I actually don't care about how any of the women responded, did they laugh, did they cry. Who cares? I only care about what he did and his actions.
Never liked his crude humor, loathe it now. The man has daughters! And he does these things in front of unsuspecting women?! Sick.
6
I always thought he took that masturbation bit too far on stage. I'm sorry for the women who endured this deviant, inappropriate behavior and felt helpless to do something about it lest it hurt their careers.
9
His apology letter is exactly what I hoped it would be. His mission now is to go around talking (without punch lines) about how this sort of thing happens even for a man who knows he is wrong and is capable of viewing other women as human beings, targeting other men who behave and think like he did. If he can manage to make an empathetic connection to other harassers and abusers, there's a good chance that he can change the behavior of other men in ways that no victim of sexual harassment or abuse can do by sharing their story.
Now that we've seen that sexual harassment is virtually ubiquitous, we need an example of someone who learned to empathize with women and actually changed his ways, and who can then go on to get others to do the same. It won't work on everyone, of course, but I suspect that there are a lot of men in the same boat as he is or was: abusing women to satisfy a sexual fetish they felt enslaved to, while possessing the capability to stop by developing empathy for women as human beings. And, of course, he should donate any money he obtains to women's charities.
He's off to a good start thus far - better than any other public figure I've ever heard of. Watch him; if this sort of tragedy can be turned around into a net good, he's the most likely person to pull it off.
27
Agreed. I liked that he gave the women the respect of calling them by name.
Now he can lead by example. I think Roy Moore is too far gone, though.
4
I deeply respect this response and hope it’s received well. We all do things that demand growth and forgiveness. And this statement is proof of that. If all offenders responded this way the world would be a better place.
18
I’m 55 yrs old and when I was about 10, my friend and I were riding our bikes on the blacktop at a school after school hours. A janitor beckoned us to ride over and when we did, we found him masterbating for us in the wide open, outdoor deserted hallway. We rode away as fast as we could and never even discussed it.
When I was 13 or so and walking home from school, a man stopped his car and rode along side of me and called he to come over and watch him, again, I never told anyone.
There are too many of these things that have happened throughout my life to name.
It’s about time it’s being brought to the surface publicly so young girls don’t feel as alone in these circumstances as I once did.
30
What he did was appalling and disgusting. What is even more appalling is that apparently comedians are now held to a higher standard than presidents. All his gigs are cancelled within a day from the NYT publication. Trump is accused of assault - not just harassment - and he proceeds to become the president. Nobody is cancelling Trump's TV appearances.
34
This person was exonerated after 5 years in prison and another 5 year ordeal:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Banks_(American_football)
Actually a long list of these types of folks, who often fare worse. The work of the Innocence Project is essential and never ending, and unfortunately the current movement of guilt upon accusation will lead to more innocent people behind bars. Not saying Louie is innocent, but progressives (of which I am one) are trending on Twitter right now for clever statements deriding the statement "if true."
3
He made jokes about masturbation for years, and people laughed. I recall a scene or two in Louie where he actually implied the deed on camera. On Seinfeld, the line by the character Elaine, "he pulled it out" was used with no apparent brushback. It's not appropriate at all to masturbate in front of someone who didn't agree to the show. It could be judged anywhere from a fetish to a perverted act to even think of asking someone who isn't understood to be a willing participant in this, to watch. While I wouldn't condone or excuse his behavior, it seems to me these allegations lack some of the unlawful conduct of Cosby, Weinstein and Spacey in that he asked, and did not tell or force, nor was he quite in the power position he is today. And again, not to excuse what he did, but this does differ in that I don't see reports of his touching anyone but himself. And I may have missed something, but did any of the women say "no?"
I feel a slight hypocrisy on a different level. Similar to how I feel when comedians make fun of shootings, sexual misconduct, or almost anything having to do with the Trump tragedy, for laughs. I'm uneasy with that. I'm sad to know this about Louis CK, but can anyone say they're shocked?
How can the same who reward this kind of behavior with laughs, and then because it's not just words, vilify a same or similar-thing? I'm not supporting his actions or denouncing the pain felt by his accusers, but on this one, just maybe a double standard?
3
He was in a power position and their careers and their work where directly affected, why are you saying otherwise? And yes there are different levels of comedy and different levels of assault. Cosby drugged and raped his victims, CK didn't. So? Does that excuse him? Is hey I wasn't as bad as Cosby his defense?
1
And another one bites the dust...
First Kevin Spacey, then Louis C.K.?
Please, please, Stephen Colbert - tell us we have nothing to worry about.
8
If only the person elected as president last year AFTER he was heard BRAGGING about how he can grab women’s genitals ON TAPE was REJECTED for his behavior, instead he was REWARDED with the top job in the land.
I think many people, wouldn’t be so frustrated with thes kinds of behaviours by men who think because, like the grabber in chief says, “when you are famous you can do anything”.
17
Things like this have been going on in Hollyweird since the silent film days…Does the name Fatty Arbuckle ring a bell ?
5
No, not for most of the people reading this article. Far before their time.
3
This this guy is apparently a deranged pervert. Perhaps those who found his disgusting behavior entertaining ought to be asking questions about themselves...
6
Maybe someone needs to hack the ticket sales records from the venues he's appeared at and cull it for noteworthy names.
Well, on the chance that Republicans could or would ban Abortion and Same sex marriage and have Gays be ejected from the country, many "good christians" voted for someone who bragged about being a sexual predator, Donald Trump.......forgetting about their own vile thoughts, hoping for advantage.
Humans are a complex lot, and society has allowed this to happen, now at the highest levels of government.......
Thank You for contributing
1
I am heartbroken to hear of this disgusting and disrespectful behavior by LCK. He was my favorite comedian. I thought he was a good man.
What will his daughters think of him?
11
Hey, if my mother were alive during this Cosby mess,..it would have killed her. She cherished what she thought he was about and stood for.
4
Sleazeball Louis C.K. Deserves what is coming his way now that he's been outed. Th sad thing is that Politicians accused of worse are fully supported by their partisans, many who pretend to be christians, because those sexual predators are of the same party affiliation. Bill O'Reilly, Harvey Weinstein, Bill Cosby, and now C.K., are suffering appropriate consequences to their careers at least.
Donald Trump and Roy Moore however can molest women of any age and apparently the conservative "christians" of America just blow it off because they support whatever slime runs as a republican.
A guest column appeared a couple of weeks back in the NYT where the writer was calling liberals hypocritical and suggested they wouldn't punish Harvey Weinstein in a similar fashion as Bill O'Reilly. I'm waiting, and I suspect I'll wait a long time for that author to challenge conservatives to give Roy Moore a shove into the ash can for the pedophilic behavior that is being credibly reported in detail. I have no doubt that Trump has had his lawyers and goons effectively shut up the women he's no doubt sexually harassed or assaulted.
13
The comments from many men are sophomoric and disturbing.
As your mothers clearly dropped the ball on this, here are the rules:
1. Keep your hands, genitalia and sexual fantasies to yourself in professional settings.
2. Don't talk to a woman's breasts. This is an easy one; her eyes are a foot higher.
3. Assume that your female colleagues aren't interested in you and proceed accordingly. You're right.
Repeat.
37
How about this to our daughters: If a straight man invites you to his hotel room,it's safe to say he is hitting on you. If this man takes his penis out, leave the room asap unless you like looking at it. Nothing is preventing you. The second he unzips his pants is your signal. Maybe he is drunk. Maybe he's a perv. Maybe he is sexually frustrated and has issues. Whatever. Leave. The next day call him up and yell at him. Or not. Whatever you want. But if he apologizes for this and you accept the apology, don't bring it up years later in the NY Times.
1
Speaking of mothers...Here's some info about my mother and her sister.
I was molested for years as a child by my aunt. And my mother "accidentally" managed to expose herself to me dozens of times during my youth. My mother and her sister--the molesting aunt--had both been physically abused by their mother when they were little girls. I never said anything, and felt the same shame, confusion, and fear expressed by all those coming forward now in the media.
Those women and men who are speaking up about their abusers help us all feel less alone.
I thank them.
1
The forces that led to extreme rightism [aka Trumpism] are in the process of creating a very real backlash in the opposite direction. Economic reflexivity creates investment momentum until prices cannot justify themselves and then collapse through their respective mean and causing catastrophe. The political environment appears to be doing just that. Borne of anger and frustration this is civil war but without bullets. And like a hot war many will be damaged. The [negative] reflexes back and forth will stymie those otherwise courageous to take chances, a loss of potential leaderships who may have second thoughts, and finally forming a world more of blandness and mediocrity - the end result to sparing one from the courts of public opinion. Most of us will lose this war.
1
He is an exhibitionist. He doesn't know where to draw the line off stage. Perhaps he thought it was short of rape or some other physical invasion of a woman's space with a sexual tone, pick one. Comedians flirt with impropriety and "lines" all the time on stage but here he has no "real world" limits. Behind it all is a need that invaded others psyche and went over a very unpleasant line to his own discredit. He wouldn't tell a bad joke, would edit commedic lines but cannot stop his own behavior. So a talent becomes a sick jerk.
7
One day (un dia de estos) homo sapiens may come to the widespread realization that we are animals and accept the full consequences of that inarguable truth. But I guess 1859 is a very short time away historically after tens of thousands of years of telling ourselves that we are the darling, special creations of a powerful being who endowed us with the contradictory ability to master ourselves the way puppeteers can master puppets. This is not to excuse the behavior of a Louie CK much less that of a Harvey Weinstein. And yes, they inhabit significantly different points of a terrible spectrum. But the language we use of "toxic masculinity," "powerful man acting entitled" and so on, as if it was only powerful and male human beings who behave badly, reflects our delusions. If these men had the choice to engage in this kind of behavior would they actually choose it? Yes, Louie should be shun for a time and Weinstein should be arrested for the protection of others. But one would hope that those of us not directly receiving stimuli from these incidents, those of us who are not the victims or somehow connected to the victims, not the perpetrators or their beneficiaries, could take a step back in analyzing these events and refrain from the language of vengeance seeking and humiliation. This language while pretending to be insightful, pro-civility, and woke simply further points to our animal nature.
9
I just read Louis CK's statement. It was the most thoughtful so far. He didn't plead drunkeness; he recognized the issue of his power in this mess. He says he will stay back and listen for a while but I hope he can honestly examine his behavior and share any insights he comes up with about what is behind such debasement of the women and himself. I recently observed in a restaurant a father and his 8 year old son having lunch. Not once did the father look up from his phone. The son sat and stared blankly. I think of this scene when I hear about these powerful men acting out. Aside from the gross abuse and disrespect, there is something bleak and lonely about it. We seem to increasingly choose the controllable image or machine over the difficult, complicated human interaction. I can't help but wonder if this and the shootings and the opioid crisis are all connected by our growing distaste for human closeness.
23
I think you are really on to something here.
2
Louis C.K.
Harvey Weinstein
Kevin Spacey
Ben Affleck
Roy Price
Oliver Stone
John Besh
James Toback
Leon Wiesetlier
Terry Richardson
George H.W. Bush
Mark Halperin
Michael Oreskes
Jeremy Piven
Jeffrey Rattner
Ed Westwick
Steven Segal
Brett Ratner
Bill Cosby
Donald Trump
O.K., I get it. Men are pigs.
The flood of allegations of sexual impropriety by the rich, powerful and famous men washing across the mediasphere is ample evidence of this fact. Women (and men) are now more empowered to speak of this issue and that's a good thing. However, we men are only likely to change our behavior when it is called out immediately at the time it occurs, not weeks, months or even decades later in a tell-all memoir. Call us to task, ladies (and gents), but do it to our face and as soon as it is safe to do so.
7
Dear Mr. McNeill, I don't think all men are pigs. I think it is pervasive misogyny, which some women promote too, that is the problem.
To me, the most shocking revelation is David Boies violating NY Rule of Professional Conduct 1.7 (current client conflict of interest) by signing a six-figure contract for ex-Mossad agents to kill a NYT story re Harvey Weinstein while the NYT was also a client. Or how about the prosecutors refusing to arrest Weinstein after they have him on tape? Or the Board members saying they thought all of those settlements were over "consensual" sex. So you have one major pig, Weinstein, with an army of enablers whose excuses amounted to the laughable proposition that all of these women consented to be Weinstein's victims. To me the enablers are the most shocking part about this -- not that some men are pigs.
(Also, you forgot Roy Moore.)
4
Bill Clinton. Like I always say, judge actions, not people. Show me a perfect person in this world. There are only good actions and bad actions, not good and bad people. When I was younger, I've been bullied and I was bullied, by members of both sexes. I've gotten into physical fights with members of both sexes (before I was 18, fortunately). I did grow up and am a lot calmer now but I can't say I never make mistakes, though that is what I aspire to.
1
Some of the victims (in Moore's case) were children when it occurred. Others were ashamed and embarrassed. Others were in professional positions dependent upon the man.
Why do you have to be told that what you're doing is wrong? Don't you know? Do you think the men above didn't know?
They didn't care.
4
https://vimeo.com/242207297 what gave it away ?
1
Hidden in plain sight!
Never thought much of his humor ....tried watching his performances several times and never lasted more than 5 or 10 minutes. He apparently is a mixed-up individual.
Move over Harvey and Kevin ....make room in Rehab for another jerk.
5
So about half the men here think this is terrible, and half think it's OK.
And this explains how we may fire someone for spewing racist or anti-semitic language but elect a president who's a known groper.
13
AS an Afro-American, I have long realized that Louis and other enablers of the TRump hate machine against peoples of colored didn't deserve the coddling they always received from the NYTimes and other apologists for the Sessiosn Trump
campaign to destroy minority participatetion via mass incarceration.
Time for Republicans like Louis & Kevin Spacey to answer for their behavior!
1
The obvious truth here is this gentleman is perverse in behavior and needs to check into a sex clinic for brain modification. Anyone this dysfunctional that needs unsuspecting bystanders to watch is a lollipop away from being a true danger. How and why his distorted sexuality went untreated is unfortunate and now he faces disaster and likely criminal proceedings. Anyone thinking he has a harmless fetish is thoughtless because he enlists others in his distortion and disgust.
3
Don't use the word "gentleman" so loosely. The word used to mean something.
There comes a moment in which news about accusations like this goes too far. This is getting close to character assassination.
The scale of outrage has sled from rightfully taking down a all powerful gatekeeper in Hollywood preying on women and giving them hush-money, to accusations of pervy act by a sleazy writer in his younger years, who became famous years later.
I won't say this looks good on Louis CK, not at all even. But there is a certain line of decency about accusations and character assassination that the NY Times is now getting dangerously close to.
20
This comment section is riddled with men attempting 50 different ways to excuse or downplay C.K.'s behavior - and perhaps more disturbingly, twisting themselves into awful shapes to blame the victims. That they don't see that they are part of the larger problem of a rape culture where consent isn't valued - from street harassment to actual assault - is disturbing. Some serious soul-searching - and actually listening to and believing women and all victims of sexual assault or harassment - is needed here, along with a full-fledged paradigm shift.
17
Comparing this case to rape culture, sex assault, or sexual harassment insults victims of rape and sexual assaults. Louis asked for permission before exposing himself. Though his actions were not right, they're a far cry from sex assault.
1
I'm a woman in my sixties. I can't count the number of men who made inappropriate sexual propositions to me, starting at age 9 in Radio City Music Hall (my dad switched places with me so the creepy old man with his hand on my knee would not have his target--after I whispered to my mom). In college, it was a prof--and saying no to him, without any second thoughts--got me an undeserved low grade. It happened with a couple of male landlords resulting in my "willing" eviction. It happened at work, once, resulting in my quitting. Once, it resulted in rape--an event that was horrible yet no more creepy than the others.
So what's my point here? Saying no and leaving is what women need to do. All the time. Do you lose your job sometimes? I think so--which is the only way I can rationalize these men losing THEIR jobs, nowadays. Keep doing it, folks, and they'll get the message. But what worries me, and you, about this strategy...An accusation can destroy a person's life, whether or not it's true. Destroying a person's career because of accusations was McCarthyism in a nutshell. Let's shift away from this horror. Perhaps Human Resources everywhere can register accusations and report them, anonymously, to police? Perhaps there could be some criminal category--as there is for someone who masturbates in public, for instance?
7
I don't quite understand your goal. Are you saying that women should put up with any situation that doesn't rise to the level of a criminal act? Or, are you suggesting a reworking of the penal law to incorporate the common indignities that so many women experience? I for one have no problem with a woman who is the target of an unwanted comment about her appearance swiftly directing her knee to the commentors genitals but I don't know that incarceration is the best way to handle such uncomfortable situations.
1
You bring up a good point about personal responsibility (versus remaining in the scenario on site or on the phone to be offended). I don't like the idea that women are penalized for doing this. It's vindictive and not fair in a still male dominated world of business. Hopefully this epic and cathartic wave of accusations will have socially redeeming ramifications for this behavior and a ripple effect moving forward. I remain amazed at the amount of voluntary resignations, firings and project cancellations before actual legal papers are filed or criminal charges are made. This has to indicate that industry captains are listening and are concerned about public perception if not facing the fact that it's the ethical and moral thing to do.
It is not lost on me that a few of these accusations have been coincidentally timed with the offending performer's new project release dates. Although they have already acquired much of their wealth, the social stigma will follow them in the public eye and the places they frequent. This has to have some impact against the behavior having problems controlling.
Disgusted that some poeple are saying that this behavior was ok because he asked permission. We have a longggg way to go people. Would we say raping someone was ok if the rapist asked permission first?!
It is NOT informed consent if you feel unable to say no. I can only imagine the terror of being in a situation where I am alone with a powerful, rich and physically intimidating man, and being asked something so shocking and disgusting that I'm left dumb struck, speechless and afraid for what might happen if I actually find the voice to say NO.
13
What he did was creepy, inappropriate, gross, etc. but not in the same league as Weinstein, Toback and some other yet to be publicly accused Hollywood directors and producers. He’s like the guy who flashes people on subways. I️ believe there is help for someone like him unlike for Weinstein and Toback.
8
Weinstein certainly belongs in prison for a very long time but there's a certain poetic justice to a subway flasher finding himself under the next train into the station.
3
Sad. His proclivities seem more humiliating for him than the women, still there's no excuse for his indecent behavior, which might be called super inappropriate but perhaps fall just short of out and out assault. He now needs to come clean and offer a public apology to his victims. Next stop...rehab, followed by a penance tour where he could show true remorse. Louis's appeal has always been his honest self analysis and willingness to expose his foibles and shortcomings. He's mined his personal lives for laughs, now he needs to mine it for redemption and forgiveness. Obviously, he can never do anything like this ever again or he's finished, if he isn't already. I would hate to see that because I think he is still a huge talent. His flaws can now be an opportunity for Louis to come to terms with his demons and set some boundaries. I am willing to give him another chance under these conditions. Now, how about some coverage on Tariq Ramadan, who has been accused of raping and physically abusing numerous women over many years. Everyone seems to be either silent about this guy (not listed in the sideline list of abusers attached to this article), or bending over backwards to give him the benefit of every doubt, with the same people who howled for Weinstein's and Spacey's, heads being strangely quiet. I would hate to think he's getting a pass because people are afraid of being called racists, Islamophobic etc. If it's wrong for all the rest, then it's wrong for Mr. Ramadan.
2
So leftists work hard to eradicate from the United States its Judeo-Christian traditions/heritage/history, gender roles and societal behaviors/morality in men and women and are shocked when their society becomes like Sodom and Gomorrah.
6
This has zero to do with political affiliation. At least Louie apologized and acknowledged his behavior, unlike your pathetic gun toting public servant Roy Moore who's calling his accusations "fake news".
2
Best wishes on your burgeoning comedy career! You’re off to a great start.
Tell it to defenders of the faith Bill O'Reilly and Roy Moore. This isn't a left/right or believer/non-believer problem. It's a man/woman problem.
Since when are stand up comedians powerful figures? Is he in the mafia?
This sexual revolution is starting to get comical.
When are you going get around to taking down Bill Clinton and the revered memory of the great cad John Fitzgerald Kennedy? If you can support the removal and destruction of Civil War generals and politicians then Kennedy will be easy.
10
Not political.
How come this is top of the page on the NY Times, with photos and fanfare, while the story about Alabama Senate candidate "Judge" Roy Moore's alleged sexual relationship with a 14 year old girl is buried way down the page and has a far more modest presentation? Not that it's one or the other, but I would expect to see at least equal treatment.
18
So 1 consensual event with an anonymous source. One proposition that was dropped after rejected. One accusation of some type of "forced" phone sex, and two grown women together who when a grown man took off his clothes and masturbated acted like they found it hilarious.
The only thing thus does is gross people out and confirm Louis CKs admission's he is s a pervert. This is pretty much tabloid journalism at it's worse and seriously demeans victims of sexual assault. Maybe there is something to this story, but it wasn't ready and going to print with nothing but lewd acts is salacious and disgusting.
11
To those who are saying "He didn't touch them and he gave them the opportunity to say no..."
Is that the standard for civilized behavior? You go to work with new colleagues or meet with someone who says he wants to offer professional advice and it's necessary to say "No I don't want you to masterbate in front of me!"
Worse, his manager Mr. Becky thought Louis C. K.'s execrable behavior necessitated a veiled threat to these women they'd better keep quiet? Which kept them from applying for jobs Mr. Becky had a professional connection to for years?
In what world are Louis C.K. and Dave Becky fit to have this much control over who gets jobs in comedy?
This is depravity.
18
the world of Washington, more specifulically, the white house, that's which world.
Once a pig, always a pig. But the saddest thing is that people pay money to be exposed to his disgusting routines. America is definitely getting cruder and dumber.
If we want to make America great again, we need to drain the cultural swamp we live in.
4
Fair being fair among the sexes... as it is what we want the world to be...
when are we gonna start seein' the stories about all the gals who harass the fellas? Don't say it doesn't happen, that would be reverse discrimination(!).
Didn't any of you all see the movie "Disclosure"? Demi Moore (tries to) harass Michael Douglas! Then she turns the table after he doesn't buy the cookies and says he tried to harass her!
All this jumpin' on the war wagon is gonna result with something unintentionally going over a cliff. You'll see.
2
Jeez ... so many guys with issues. If you like someone, show interest. If it's not reciprocated, stop. Don't be creepy. It's not that hard. Find someone who likes you. Reveal your wild side to them. Get therapy if you need it. Get over your weird power/sexual issues. Be an adult.
14
Your second sentence is indicative of how pervasive this problem is. No, it's NOT okay to express an attraction or interest in a woman unless she has previously made it abundantly clear that she wants you to. Unsolicited comments of any type need to be considered off limits. Always.
2
It is truly a weird MO he shares with Weinsteen. Not sure how Louie maintained an erection with two unwilling women standing there laughing at him. That is determination, to say the least.
I think you're taking it a bit too far when you say men can show no interest in a woman unless she's already made it abundantly clear that she wants him to. That kind of throws all the standard courtship behavior out the window. Most of the time, when a man shows unwanted interest it's completely harmless, unless you really can't bear to turn down someone's request to go for a coffee.
2
Newsflash people: humans are just hairless apes. Have none of you visited the monkey cage at the zoo
9
That's a long post about a guy being merely gross. He's got lots of company. If the New York Times is looking for pieces on guys who are gross give me a call.
15
How did it get this far? Seriously. How did an audience become so numb to filth that this guys act draws a capacity crowd at Madison Square Garden? But lets face it, even most PG14 series on Netflix contain simulated sex in the first five minutes of episode one. Maybe that will change now.
4
There’s nothing here he doesn’t confess to in his act. Sorry, he’s still funny. Just stay out of his hotel room...
6
I don't know what this is...male entiltelment?
2
ANOTHER ONE!
Lets just say ALL males in the world have done something stupid in a man or women, and start over..REALLY!!!
Enough with the hypocrisy! He asked the women if he could. They stayed in the room, thereby giving their implicit consent. These weren’t minors or children, they were grown women in a grown man’s hotel room. All consenting adults. He didn’t force them to do anything. If you don’t like it, leave. In fact they laughed and screamed until he was done. Sounds like a fun time was had by all.
Men and women are allowed to flirt with each other, hit on each other and try to seduce one another. Every sexual act that some find offensive doesn’t rise to the act of sexual assault or misconduct. Every awkward, “perverted” or supposedly deviant encounter is not abuse.
Ask yourself, if the genders of the participants were reversed, would this story be newsworthy? No. It would be a nonissue. Imagine, “She whispered in my ear....I heard her doing something on the other end of the phone...she undressed and laid on the hotel bed...” I know there is a long history of sexual abuse and predatory behavior by men against women. But this is not that. This is a kinky guy making awkward passes at women he likes. That’s ok.
I can’t speak to motivation of these women years after the fact. But I do know that Louis CK is a comic genius and a good man. Unless there is something more to these allegations, leave the man alone.
20
Excuse me, but how reasonable is it to ask an acquaintance if you can masturbate in front of them. How often a week do you do this?
4
Thank you for posting some sense! I’m not a huge fan of this comedian, but his actions are FAR removed from those of Harvey Weinstein or Bill Cosby. This witch hunt is out of control.
1
Kevin Spacey must be sighing with relief that he's off the front page.
9
primitive behavior from a primitive guy. standup is full of primitive talk about body parts and naughty words. like going to the zoo and watching monkeys, standup's the same. funny if youre in junior high but as an adult not so much
1
This ugly man- how dare you use the strength of your audiences laughter at you; your jokes; your oddness which you turned into this great comedic career and you turn it around to attack these colleagues of yours. I hope your career is over, at the minimum- you should go to jail- pull your privates out there. ThT you won’t do because- amongst other reasons- you are a coward .
Actually, compared to Roy Moore (and others) Louie is courageous by apologizing and admitting to the accusations and stating he has a problem.
2
This man is not ill, as many commenters have suggested. His stage act, where there were no boundaries and nothing was off-limits, merged with his real life power and status (and vice versa) making the line between the two practically indiscernible. In fact, he was celebrated and paid handsomely to discuss on stage what he did in his real life. The women who came forward are the reality check he needs, whether or not his actions were criminal.
8
Yep... def laughing -at- him now....
1
And no doubt he is laughing at himself at moments also.
Gross. I admit i did not read the entire article. i hope he did not threaten or force himself onto any one or even endanger a child. Or make himself ineligible for president.
4
He has daughters. He has despicably used them as vulgar fodder for his so-called comedy since they were babies. They have had no choice in the matter. Their mother has not protected them. And now this which he just told the NYT is all true.
So, have any children been hurt by this? His own. My own. Everyone's children are hurt by this because we have a guy behaving like this and then packaging and selling it to the public for personal enrichment and glory. To a fan base who, based on comments here, pretty much knew he was always talking about himself and certainly talking about his real children. His fan base hurts children, especially his own. Imagine having your father talk about you like he does and a huge swath of the public not only defending him but egging him on and making him rich. Every fan of his has betrayed his children. Not sure where they are ever going to turn for safety and solace.
2
Maybe you should read the entire article before suggesting children may have been involved or imply he may have physically forced himself on someone.
I am so profoundly disgusted by the victim-blaming comments to this article. I would expect it from Fox News commenters, but not here. Rape culture is real. If someone masturbates in front of you, it's NOT the fault of the victim. It's inappropriate and foul. You are a walking, talking human dumpster fire if you think otherwise.
25
No, not the woman's fault however these women are not without a degree of responsibility for themselves by not immediately leaving the room or hanging up the phone (call initiated by the victim). Rather, they chose to let him complete the act. You use the word rape in your rant, yet there were no rapes here. Inappropriate and foul? Of course. But don't use this as an opportunity to skewer him for all the other more truly heinous and egregious acts that other people out there are committing.
1
Reading a few of these comments makes me me want to scream to wake people up to the fact that many in our society (world) will now excuse obnoxious male behavior as trivial and just something that women should chuckle at and accept because it's something men do. Whatever your definition of sexual harassment is, it should not be excused because it is not "criminal". Maybe it should be. Regardless, individuals should not be confronted with this type of behavior. Keep it in your pants gentlemen.
11
Okay, this is the easy stuff. Not easy for the women involved, and not easy for the women who are now continually re-experiancing trauma every single time they look at the news--but who have the courage, so many of them, to speak up.
But, America, this is the easy stuff, because although these are real problems, Louis C.K, and Harvey Weinstein, and Kevin Spacey, and a hundred other guys (all men, isn't that interesting, just like homegrown terrorists who shoot up concerts and churches) aren't going to blow up the world. They're not going to make it so hard to get medical care that your mother or father or child dies because you can't pay for their treatment. They're full of it, but they're not trying singlehandedly to turn back all the strides we've made, nationally and globally, to deal with climate change. They're not sending your friends and neighbors back to Mexico or El Salvador. They're (well, mostly) not stealing from the poor to give to the rich.
So I hope all this rage, well placed and important as it is, will fuel the challenge in front of us: getting a sexual predator and abuser--of American values and of the American people--out of the White House.
16
"Predatory"? hardly.
"Pathetic"? definitely.
Is this even close to the level of groping or rape? No.
Please, let's not return to the 1950s. We're all adults now, yes?
18
Is "Misconduct" the right word to describe what he did? Should the headline instead be written; "Louis C.K. Is Accused of Sexual Assult by 5 Women?" Misconduct sounds harmless.
3
His new film about a 17 year old girl having a relationship with a 68 year old man is enough of a reason for his career to end.
10
I don't agree. He is one of the few humans to broach socially awkward topics and illustrate them in a way to make us laugh and contemplate them. You were naive enough to think he was above living life close to all his topics or was somehow separate from them and was better than that? Maybe you should try re-assessing your expectation on the human conditions and realize what being an artist sometimes entails.
His apology today is not a dodge. It's been days and Kevin Spacey hasn't said a word. Louie didn't waste any time to release (sorry, bad choice of words) a forthright admission and apology for his actions. He KNOWS he's fallible and is not hiding from it.
There are several actors who have worked with him, who have delighted us with their talents (to include the amazing violin duet in the apt hallway from season 5 of Louie). Should THEY be also be ruined in the process? Tossing the baby out with the bathwater is not a solution. He has an awareness of his problem he's openly expressed in public to his extreme embarrassment and humiliation. He does not deserve to be driven to ruin. He does deserve another chance.
He made need to take some time away. Even Mel Gibson has been received back into the public domain to work in his craft. If you don't like Louie's brand of humor, then don't watch him perform. This way you won't get offended.
These assaults on women are far more prevalent and pervasive than is believed. For many women it's not an isolated incident, but a recurring attack on our self-worth that is perpetrated by both the powerful producer and the lower-rung cabbie. We are demeaned and dehumanized, our talent and professional value playing second in the minds of men such as Louis C.K. And where do these flabby, fat, and unfit men get the idea that they have any sexual appeal?
12
You had a good statement until your last demeaning one!
Louis C.K. knows he's creepy. I would never look to him for a job recommendation.
Growing up you make sure you're never alone with certain people. Does he cross a line when he lets people know right up front how he responds to women? Or do they cross a line.
It's like deciding to sit in the sun for 5 hours and then complaining to all about your sunburn.
3
The art of seduction is dead. RIP.
8
To be replaced by business agreements.
They laughed, but didn't get up and leave. Why?
12
I read things like this and all I can say is...WHAT are these men thinking?!!? Are they all so insular, so wrapped up in their sexual obsessions, that they cannot see themselves clearly? Not at all?!? Short answer; yes. It's behavior that, if done by an average person on the street, would land them straight in a padded, rubber (well...maybe not rubber - heh), room. With lots of med's to boot. Oh, MAN, perversity holds far too much sway in our society doesn't it? I believe we all need to step back and do a collective, societal, "think and reset" on all of this. And perhaps all these reveals are doing just that. About time, too, eh?
John~
American Net'Zen
3
Judging by the anecdotes, he didn't commit any crime. He asked permission and didn't force or coerce anyone.
His behavior would make many uncomfortable but making someone uncomfortable isn't justification for prosecuting someone.
11
Exposing yourself and masturbating is not OK or legal anywhere.
1
No one's prosecuting him.
this wave of 'victims' coming out after years and decades
is little more than their own attempt to reconcile why
the had eagerly sold their 'favors' for successful careers.
After career hunger left and success settled in,
the long forgotten 'favor' began to seem like a huge sacrifice.
6
...and therein lies the problem. Victim shaming is part of this whole vicious cycle. The common denominator here is men in positions of power take advantage of women , most of the time young impressionable women, then these women are shamed and intimidated into silence. Then when they come forward after years of paralyzing fear, they are the ones who are put on trial in the court of public opinion. It's frustrating and disgusting and it really needs to stop.
If Louis CK knew he had a problem, why didn't he get help for it at the time? Perhaps he didn't really believe it was a problem, but part of the male condition. Certainly other comedians have made jokes about the fact that sex is on men's minds 24/7 and talk about women in their capacity as ego/libido boosters. If they believe what Lenny Bruce said, that speaking about unpeakable stuff takes the sting out of it, then perhaps they believe making jokes about sexual obsession makes it less menacing and more matter of course.
I remember going to comedy shows with lots of jokes about driving drunk, and thinking, maybe it's not so good to be laughing about it all the time. Maybe it's not that funny. Maybe making endless jokes about sexual obsessions and endless pursuit of gratification isn't that funny.
11
HE grew up in an era where permissiveness was bordering on normal?
What is funny? If people laugh, it's funny.
To all men saying "this is not that awful", "just a fetish", etc -- so you'd be fine with another male doing this to you? Maybe that's the way you should think of these things going forward. If you wouldn't accept this kind of behavior yourself, why should women accept it?
47
I'm one of those men you're referring. If this happened to me, I'd walk out of the room. As I have a sense of humor as the two women comedians presumably have, I'd likely laugh it off. Would I personally be offended - no. Would I think it weird - definitely. Would I feel the need to go to a newspaper 15 years later to report it - only if I had a desire to grab some of the headlines being created by some very real predators. You asked, so there you go.
2
Angry, entitled, diseased men brandishing guns - whether their own or of the weapons variety - have become a dangerous and destructive scourge in our society. How do we even begin to address this?!
10
removing his prior performances reeks of McCarthyism.
22
We have become a people in thrall to our capacity to ruin the lives and reputations of others. And then there's the suppression part of those efforts which, as with the removal of statuary, suggests an entitlement to an environment that is sanitary, free of any distressing material. Perhaps: yet these tactics suggest a certain level of vacuity is desirable, as well.
1
The Great American Experiment is over. The conclusion is close to definitive.
From politics, to race, to business and finance, to marriage, to war, to language, to cultural decorum, and to sexuality - we are not winning. We are now just a punchline to a very cruel joke.
8
At one time exhibitionists and peeping Toms were considered harmless and juvenile. Now those actions are considered stepping stones to more aggressive sexual behavior including rape. While he is now being only gross and disgusting, maybe he is waiting to act more aggressively on his urges. Like the rest of the accused, he will go into treatment where he will be taught something he already knows; it is not acceptable behavior. The take away is, be more careful where and when you behave this way. He like the others will not stop.
5
Louis has spoken at length about his drug and alcohol abuse, which is compulsive behavior. This looks like sexual compulsion and I’d like to know if this behavior occurred before he cleaned up. He’s a brilliant and insightful comedian, so I hope he can overcome and carry on.
16
With each passing day, these reports of sexual assault and abuse just get more grotesque!!!!!! I actually thought many of these men could never be monsters. I was so wrong. They are successful actors and entertainers because they are experts in deception.
6
Deception? His obsessions were the focal point of his comedy. If this was deception, he was hiding in plain sight. In front of sold out audiences at Madison Square Garden.
1
With all the issues about sexual harassment that have been unearthed of late, it asks the question of how much of the "iceberg" is still to be seen. Probably way too many.
6
It needs to stop right here. What Bill Cosby did was criminal, immobilizing his victims and raping many women. This guy is out front deviant, but do you want to see a train w.reck or do you want to walk away? That is a choice and by still talking about it years later, the pair are attaching themselves to success and it is a form of jealousy. Comedians trade in their obsessions and we the viewers can always walk away.
5
Nonsense. All this talk about how he asked permission or that the women could leave or call for help. Very often one is paralyzed, feels helpless in these situations and don't want to cause trouble. So glad the floodgates seem to have opened and so many of us can speak up. #MeToo. It was my stepfather and I was only eleven years old. I spoke up but my own mother didn't believe me. But my grandmother did. She saved me.
27
Is America beginning to grow up? Acting like an animal and getting away with it shows how low we can go. People who are brought up to respect others do not do these things. Locker room talk and grabbing unsuspecting women is for low-life's not "smart" people and should not be tolerated no matter who they think they are.
11
Louis C.K. is just another hypocrite.
When are the women this country going to stand up and protest their treatment by Hollywood/Entertainment elites in a meaningful way, just like they did in Washington (against the newly elected President) earlier this year?
2
Louis CK used to appear on the Opie and Anthony show on a regular basis before his career really took off. I never cared for his comedy but on the radio, he seemed like a likable guy. I now realize his act on the radio was just that an act and his comedy is the person he truly is.
1
So let me get this straight, some man behaves badly so the networks and production companies shut down the work product of THOUSANDS of hard working artists and craftsmen, resulting in lost residuals, much of which funds union pensions and healthcare for the families of carpenters, make up artists, electricians etc. Gee, I wonder why there's so much pressure on women in entertainment (most of which are union members themselves) to keep quiet?
In tandem with changing the behavior of men like Louis C.K. we need to work on our response to these incidents. The very executives who pulled the plug on millions of dollars in pension funding don't want to shut Louis C.K. down they want to shut YOU down. They want us to tear each other apart over who is the most outraged and who can rip Louis C.K. up the hardest so that we don't stop and wonder why we trust the creators of this broken and immoral system to continue running it.
12
I believe he believed he was joking. However, that behavior is still inexcusable no matter the circumstances, and is 100% sexual harassment, blatant flashing at the lowest level. It still sickens me how brilliant minds can be total monsters, it doesn't surprise me anymore but it still sickens me.
6
Wow, and this is called "misconduct?" I think it's mental illness.
8
Sometimes it seems people think that our society is becomming more and more degraded. I think that people have always used their power to get what they want. Look at animals. In many species the strongest male gets whatever females he wants. In many ways things are better now than they were when these things were just covered up or accepted as "real life." In the case of Louie, I don't think he means any harm, but why hasn't he just used prostitutes, or sought treatment?
This uproar surprises me, since Louis C.K's act has always been extremely explicit and often uncomfortable. He describes explicit sexual acts in detail without any filter. How is it that now, this has become newsworthy?
America has gone over the puritanical edge recently. Certainly, some of the behaviors we have learned about are vile and sometimes criminal, but often, they are long in the past. Artists are eccentric, and that contributes to what makes them powerful actors, as in the case of Kevin Spacey. Yes, their behavior can be unacceptable, but some understanding of the artistic license must be acknowledged. These deeply creative artists are often troubled souls, and holding them to a 'family values' standard is unrealistic unless we want to revert to a bible thumping society void of uncomfortable art and artists.
16
I wouldn't be surprised if his new stuff didn't work in front of test audiences and the studios wanted to break the contract.
These things always happen at a time that is beneficial to some other powerful person. That would be the real story.
1
That's what I was thinking. I'm surprised this wasn't the premise of one of his bits.
But to answer your question. This appears to be a right wing operation to get Hollywood to turn on itself. Bannon in particular has a score to settle with Hollywood. If he was leading the press push behind this, I wouldn't be surprised for a second.
1
You are conflating things and gaslighting. This is about crimes and also creating hostile work environment - not holding people up to family values. That is a false dichotomy you suggest.
5
Friends of my daughter who live in his building have commented on his sexual habits for some time. He has a reputation.
11
A reputation ?
Have you heard his act ? He's upfront about this. This guy's hangups are his career - it's no secret.
Crude behavior, kind of pathetic. But relatively trivial and it happened awhile ago, hardly seems like front page news.
Is there a point of diminishing returns with these stories?
16
Stories? These are crimes and predation and affecting women's lives, careers, and finances. Trivial to you maybe. If you are bored by these "stories" move on to other articles.
5
I know one casino operator turned President that hopes so.
5
This is a man who was supposed to make us laugh. Now we know there's reason to despair. What kind of disease is it that drives a man to do this? I want to know. Which is still no excuse. If you're sick, you get help. If you're haunting women, who may wonder what they did wrong, you get help, and you stop. Was he working out on stage a sickness he had in reality? Again, no excuse for his private behavior. And then, to be accused of actually masturbating in front of or while talking to women. What do they expect would happen? Obviously, the curtain of silence and misplaced shame has protected these offenders, some of them monstrously. Well, we're ready to listen now. Tell your stories. Unburden yourselves as much possible. We can't let this moment slip away. There all to much of this terror going on. Please help us to understand, NYT.
9
Well well, we now find ourselves deeply enmeshed in the latest incarnation of the McCarthy era. I bet we all thought it was long dead. But here we are again. The old bus goes round and round. This time any woman can accuse any man of some sexual misdeed, and the person is crucified in the public press, without benefit of due process of law. In this victim culture a man can be accused of a sexual misconduct that happened 40 years ago, and all these years later he can get fired or disgraced and all the McCarthyites cheer. Never mind personal growth or a change of heart, the political correctness police will come for him, egged on by the chance to create yet another victim. God Bless the new America. But I liked the old one better.
16
I agree. Nothing that has been disclosed is other than reprehensible, particularly where minors have been abused, but the responses to these disclosures, reflecting an industry in decline, are disturbing in equal measure.
Mostly of these men decided not to comment on the allegations against them; they've had plenty of opportunity to dispel completely false accusations. Also, I doubt a newspaper who's reputation rests on thorough reporting would risk publishing a half-baked story based on bogus accusations. Just because the story is unpalatable doesn't make it less true.
As much I loved his comedy and as disappointed as I am, there's no way to defend this behavior.
The old one where women who rebuffed advances like Louis CK's earn less money and get less works? No thanks.
1
"I then proceeded to ask him about the sexual misconduct allegations against Louis C.K., a sometime mentor of Ansari’s. The two share a manager, Dave Becky, and booking agent, Mike Berkowitz—two of the more powerful figures in the comedy world, who also represent Kevin Hart and a slew of other top-shelf comics.
“I’m not talking about that,” Ansari brusquely replied.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/louis-cks-powerful-army-of-celebrity-enablers
5
Wow, what happened to being a gentleman?
10
It just keeps on coming. I remember as a teen I worked an early shift and walked 5 blocks to the bus. A man in a car followed me, masterbating. I just kept walking scared to death. I finally told my dad who got up on his day off and drove me to the bus stop every Saturday. A capsule shot of the character of men both good and bad.
When will men learn that they terrify women with their sexual behavior?
23
It is truly unfortunate that the masterbator hasn't had to carry scars of that contact for all these years.
"because he has so few equals in comedy" That is right, he is the ONLY comedian that I have ever seen that has never made a comment that I thought was funny-----ever! Exactly what talent scout thought that he was funny, about anything? I've been amazed at all the stand up shows that have been given to him. I've watched several, always looking and wondering how anybody would be paying this guy to do stand up. The basic truth is he is not funny, at all. I don't know about the sexual accusations, but when it gets to 5 people saying the same thing, you have to listen.
8
The floodgates are open now the abusers of their position must be shaking i9n their boots.These men and sometimes women know the power they wield and they have been abusing it for years. What must be keeping these abusers up at night is that they have abused so many people unless they have a scorecard they must be sweating.Every day the powerful have to be afraid to turn on the news for fear of some forgotten transgression has been exposed.
8
This minor entertainment story is somehow the only thing being talked about on right wing radio today.
3
The problem is in our culture at large. We are so messed up about sexuality. Sex is used in advertisements to make sales. It is condemned by certain religious organizations, belittled, made evil; sex offenders who are released from jail are treated worst than murders. We seem not to understand its power, its impulse...relationships are de-contextualized until it seems we have fully prostituted our society. It is no accident that stories of these "inappropriate" actions should be emerging. What is surprising as how little discussion there is on how we look at this problem to go forward and bring the discussion of sexuality, how we see and use it into full purview.
5
We are human animals who have the ability to control ourselves. By adulthood at eighteen, we should have mastered that. Maturity should include a high level of self discipline that makes our wants and urges of all types meaningless. We cannot give in to sexual urges any more than we should give in to the urge to stop at Starbucks or to overeat or the want to visit a Disney park or to camp out ahead of the newest iGadget or to pay $15 to see a movie. Yet, as a weakening society, we accept all of these flaws and more as being natural or okay.
1
America was founded by puritans. It may not be as religious as before but the desire to control sex is still as strong.
Now feminists are in control so they want to liberate women while at the same time curtailing the actions of "good" men, the ones they say they want to date.
It's a joke. In another decade or so it will shift again. Already you are seeing the unexpected side effects of this. Boys are now acting hyper masculine because they realise there's no benefit to them acting "good".
I'm certainly not going to defend Louis C.K.'s behavior. On the other hand, we kind of already knew he was a pig. He's told us so in his act, like a zillion times. It's not like he's a newly discovered hypocrite. He's never held himself out to be a fine moral example to aspire to. Far to the contrary. So, I don't understand the over-reaction. My reaction was a) empathy for the women involved, and b) "Well, that kind of figures."
I'm not defending him. I'm just saying it's kind of hard to be shocked by this. It's totally not on the same level as politicians, judges, family-values types, etc. While he has criticized others, it always seemed to come from an honest, human place. These allegations are not entirely inconsistent with that. Again, I'm not saying he deserves to be forgiven, only that we shouldn't be going nuts about this. I still believe in what he does in his act, and I hope he still has the opportunity to do it.
14
There was always something smug and self-congratulatory about Louis CK. I'm not surprised that he is as much as sleazeball as everyone else in Hollywood.
9
Cowardly hiding behind statements of permission or consent for this type of behavior is pathetic—you cannot obtain true permission or consent when the situation involves an inherent imbalance of power.
11
That statement is untenable.
You're absolutely right. Hmm, now how can we legislate that?
Let's see . . . in a patriarchal society (which we have), men have more access to power than women. White people generally have greater access to power than people of color. And of course the rich have more power than the poor. Studies show that attractive people are granted privileges unattractive people don't have. And then there is first world vs. third world privilege . . .
This could get messy. We should just ban all human interaction. Separate and equal!
Really, we need to stop throwing around talking points and have real nuanced conversations about how power circulates.
The comment was in response to the many comments that appeared to excuse or minimize LCK's behavior because he asked permission or got the consent of the women involved. LCK's actions and the relationships between the parties were never ones in which the balance of power didn't ultimately rest with LCK whatever decision the women made. To ignore this dynamic leads to the unthinking abuse of power.
People engage in situations of power imbalance on a daily basis---in schools, at work, using the Internet, signing a contract between all races, genders, and ages. Most such situations are resolved by excercising equal respect and dignity for the interests of the people involved. Legislation will never replace a person's conscience, empathy, or a hard look in the mirror.
1
You did say that one can never gain "true consent" when there is an "inherent imbalance of power." In a patriarchal society there is an inherent imbalance of power between men and women. As such, a woman cannot give consent to a man by your logic. Heterosexuality then always implies violation. There is a school of feminist theory that argues just that. Your premise aligns you with such thinking, which I am suggesting is wrongheaded.
A person who cannot give consent (for you, that would be anyone in a subordinate position) is a slave insofar as they don't even have rights over their own bodies (read the contract theorists). Now you're in a quandary where in order to "protect" women you are arguing for their powerlessness. Such thinking does not take women anywhere good. I ask only that we give up these knee-jerk reactions to complex situations.
1
With the #metoo campaign, I glancingly thought of the times that men had crossed the line in my life, but as an ordinarily pretty women there were too many for me to account for. From the time I was 13, it was de rigueur, part of the landscape of my life, in school, in workplaces, the library, at friend's houses, while waitressing, while walking down the street. Bosses and teachers would try to have affairs, a lawyer in an office once pulled my skirt off in the copy room. I was a smart girl with good grades, so I wore glasses and bulky blazers and kept my nose hidden in books. There was no one to confide in, no one to care about offenses against a pretty girl, and so I built fences around myself. I thank these women for standing and changing the world, so my daughter can live more proudly, more powerfully, and not be deemed and belittled as so many women before her have.
61
Men and women have crossed the line with me too, but I'd rather live in a Christian world of forgiveness that what this article and comment board suggests this country has become. Vengeance and schadenfreude is not the recipe for a healthy society. We all need to step back and reflect a little.
The only exception would be for people who set public policy at the highest levels. It's too dangerous to let people with multiple accusations continue in those positions. The potential for abuse is too great.
3
Anybody remember that old Chuck Berry number "My Ding-a-ling?" Louis' theme song.
6
That's a perfect example of past behavior that was accepted that needs to change. Songs that objectify women like Hot For Teacher, Centerfold, Teeny Weeny Bikini and a slew of others need to be pulled from playlists and online sites just as the Little Rascles and Cosby reruns were.
For a generation or so, women have been reinforcing to men the important message that "No means No". The message I get from this article is slightly different: "Yes means No"
8
No means no when it is appropriate to ask. More often than not, asking isn't appropriate so there should never be a question to be answered.
3
No means can you put me on the red carpet? Then it’s not no.
If asking isn't appropriate, how do you know what people consent to? You just sort of sense it? Make a guess?
1
One thing I can never understand is: why do women put themselves in such risky situations? Why do they accept to go into a men's house, bedroom or hotel room for alcohol and drugs and expect "nothing" to happen? Where is the common sense?
11
Because maybe parents should teach their sons not to put women into risky situations themselves.
6
I'm a woman and any time a man invites me back to his room, I'm pretty sure it's not to play tiddly winks.
5
Victim blaming at its finest! Why didn’t parents teach their sons that it’s not alright to expose themselves to women, to harass, to intimidate- no, it’s the women’s fault for being there in the first place
1
Disappointing and disturbing, yes. But we need to look to the action of Ms. Corry as a model for how to react in these situations. She said no and put it back on Louis CK to feel ashamed. If we walked into the hotel room, we can walk out (unless forcibly confined, which is another matter of course). Let's not be victims. Let the shame be on persons performing these acts. Let's give our daughters and our sons the confidence to leave situations they do not want to be in. Walk out the door. Learn how to leave.
18
Those arguing "fetish" seem overlook the fact that sometimes he asked, was declined, and proceeded anyway. Perhaps consider that maybe part of his fetish is coercion and degradation. Maybe he asked for permission because force and non-consent are part of his fetish, so rejection was necessary. Moving fetishes and fantasies into the real world can and should subject the fetishist to ethical, moral, and even legal scrutiny.
19
God. Guess no hotel security?
No, that did not happen. Re-read the article. When declined he immediately backed off. The women he did this with laughed, listened, and watched, they did not decline, they did not hang up, they did not say stop, they did not walk out of the room, they did not say "ew gross", they did not do a damn thing but watch, listen, laugh, and act as if they were happy to participate. What they were thinking and feeling on the inside is rather irrelevant if they did not bother to communicate. People cannot read minds and should not be expected to when an adult can simply use words.
Do those telling these stories want to be treated as adult women or as children? If they want to be treated as adults then they have to take responsibility for their own actions and agency, and for choosing not to communicate. If they don't want that responsibility, OK, but then they should admit they are children. Or rather, they are people wanting the sympathy and protection we extend to children but all the freedoms and privileges of adults. Learning to communicate with a simple response to a question or indication of displeasure and to assert one's own opinion is part of the toolkit of adulthood that I would think we should be encouraging people to master.
I both live and work all day in the woods. I watch all kinds of animals mating. The common thing with males is, they are programmed to mate with whatever female they find. The behaviour is rape in humans, but it doesn't change the fact that we have a similar primal coding to any other critter.
There is no place for some of our animal instincts in civilized society, and for a great many of us it is not difficult to suppress them. Stll though, this programming remains.
Speak out against it, villafy the perpetrators, lock them up. Just don't be surprised when it continues to happen, because it will, until we outlaw men.
4
Not buying it, Jon. Humans have a more highly developed cortex than animals, which enables higher brain functions of thought, reasoning and understanding.
That aside, most of these cases involve not only the initial assault (a word I use to include any or all of the following: physical, visual, emotional), but the subsequent and often sustained threats to the victim's/target's/witness's career. That's not a phenomenon you see in the woods.
10
Am I misunderstanding something? He asked people to watch him perform a sexual act. Some said "yes" and some said "no". If you said "no" he would maybe ask again but, for the most part, he'd just say "ok" and leave it at that. If you said "yes" you got the full monty. No threats or retaliation, no former Mossad agents following you, no getting you fired, no blacklisting, no attempts to bribe others into silence regardless of your answer. The worst you might get is a panicked phone call from his agent begging you not to tell anyone. So... what exactly is the problem? Did he rape anyone? Did he demand an audience in return for money or access? Did he get anyone fired for saying no? Did he humiliate anyone by telling everyone what he did and who he did it with? Did he blackmail anyone? Did he publish pictures of his audience members? Were any of the participants under the age of 18? Were they drugged or kidnapped or held against their will? If the answer is "no" to any of these questions then I'm unsure what the problem is aside from the fact many women may not find him particularly attractive.
27
Did he cut off their fingers? Did he murder their pets?
The crimes he did not commit are not at issue. What he did was commit graphic sexual acts in front of unwilling women who were little more than strangers. Their shock and disgust and fear--which can often lead people to freeze--was part of the turn on for him. Can you honestly not see that?
6
There is an inherent imbalance of power. Period.
Poor guy is being vilified, it's ridiculous.
The whole secrecy thing needs to end. Thank goodness we are seeing change in this. What kind of nasty, controlling manager/ agent tells a woman to keep this as a secret? Why?
I would advise them to tell everyone, all the yucky details. Post it on your website, make it part of your comedy routine, if you wish.
Male comedians revel in all the details of their encounters and can't wait to share the information.
Why are women expected to be the secret keepers for creeps?
10
The known reality is that most people in showbiz sold their souls to the "devil" to get a ahead; then when they become powerful, they do what was done to them (preying on the new ones). I also find it morbidly amusing, when liberals or conservatives are caught (in numbers), some of their supporters choose to live in denial.
2
I'm gonna admit, I don't care. If there's accusations he did worse, then yes I'll condemn him. But this is... honestly it seems more pathetic than predatory. And compared to Spacey, Cosby, Weinsteing and Sheen, this is not THAT awful.
8
Believe it or not, there are a number of fairly sophisticted, educated people out there who neither know nor care who “Louis C.K.” is or what he’s done to whom. (At least no more than any other garden-variety lowlife.) Count me among them.
6
The fact that Louis C.K. is a sexual predator has been known on the internet for over a decade. I recall seeing this topic being discussed on the now-defunct IMDB message boards where posters detailed unwanted encounters between him and various acquaintances. The big question at the time among random discussants was simply how long until he was caught red-handed.
But is Louis C.K.'s disgusting behavior truly a surprise to anyone with a brain? His comedy often glorified men as soulless pigs willing to subject women to any humiliation in order to achieve their sick fantasies. Recall in 2013 that Louis C.K. facetiously said during a stand-up performance:
“How do women still go out with guys, when you consider the fact that there is no greater threat to women than men? We’re the number one threat to women! Globally and historically, we’re the number one cause of injury and mayhem to women. We’re the worst thing that ever happens to them!”
In this latter instance, Louis C.K. was clandestinely speaking about HIMSELF, and wiser listeners quickly discerned that he was using such public moments as a grotesque confessional. In that stand-up performance, Louis C.K. was allowing us to glimpse the world the darkness within himself while pretending it was all a joke about men in general. Of course, it wasn't. By his own admission, Louis truly is one of the "worst things to happen to women."
9
You clearly must be a woman. Especially if you consider masturbation "darkness within himself". Because that's basically all he did. He didn't force himself on anyone. And for you to argue otherwise just shows that you most likely grew up with very few sexual encounters in your life. Any normal human looks at this and laughs about how pathetic he is. In no way shape or form is what he did considered predatory. These women had a choice. Some of them chose to leave and some chose to stay. I know women who used to masturbate IN PUBLIC. As long as he isnt forcing himself on anyone then there's no story here.
2
This sounded consensual. Goodman and Walov say they laughed off ck’s obnoxious proposal. He may have misinterpreted their reaction. After all it was a late chilly evening and liquor was apparently consumed.
7
Okay, I'm a woman and a feminist. I know very little about Louis C. K or the other comedians mentioned.
We have 5 grown women in a field which the writer describes like this: '... the professional environment is informal: profanity and raunch that would be far out of line in most workplaces are common, and personal foibles — the weirder the better — are routinely mined for material.'
To Dana and Julia--Leave, instead of 'screaming and laughing'.
To Abby: Hang up the phone.
To Rebecca: Say no. (They're in a public place.)
To Anonymous Woman: Get up and leave, instead of watching from across the desk. There are a lot of people right outside the door--you're safe.
In all of these cases, the woman agree that Louis asked first, except maybe during the phone call.
Two of these women say were intimidated because Louis's manager said that he wished that they wouldn't talk about it. He says he never threatened them and they don't argue.
Even for First World problems, these are laughable. Don't we all have better things to think about?
26
If you think it's laughable for a powerful man to prey upon the shock and fear of women, who often freeze in frightening situations, you are not a feminist. Not even close.
10
Yes and Yes! Thank you for this comment.
As a feminist, I'm sick of this "She said Yes but she really meant No, and since women clearly aren't capable of speaking their minds, men just need to go ahead and read our minds." How about we teach girls not to giggle and tolerate it??
1
In the 1960s, when I was about 12 years old, two other girls and I were waiting for my sister to pick us up near the barn where we kept our horses. We were just hanging out at the end of the driveway in a semi-rural area where there wasn't much traffic. We saw a man drive by in a yellow VW. A few minutes later, the same man was walking towards us, masturbating. Just at that moment, my sister pulled up and we all hopped in the car. The guy stopped what he was doing, turned, and ran off. We were all shocked and embarrassed; our overt reaction was to tell my sister about it as if it was funny. When we got home she told my parents, who called the police. They interviewed each of us (our descriptions of the man varied quite a bit, but obviously we weren't looking at his face). There was no resolution to the matter, but I have often wondered what the guy would have done if my sister hadn't showed up when she did. Super-creepy.
11
Being a stand-up comic isn't your typical office environment. It's especially different when you venture into the realm of "dirty" comics. You're in a world of drug- and alcohol-fueled stories and entertainment. This is similar (not exactly, but "similar") to walking onto a porn set, seeing a guy exposing himself and claiming it's assault. It's a world most people aren't used to.
I hear this talk of him being a "man in a powerful position", so he has stricter rules. According to many in this society, being a white male makes you a "person of power". I'm attracted to black women. What' the possibility of white men making a pass at them being seen as sexual assault? This is getting out of hand.
Stay strong, Louis!
10
Are you kidding me? He's in a powerful position because he is one of the top comics in the world, with a lot of influence in the industry.
6
Really? The set of a Courtney Cox-produced TV show is comparable to a porn set where one might reasonably expect to see a man expose himself? What on earth are you talking about?
I am not kidding, nano. None of these people worked for him. In a world of independent comics, they are equals. If you don't see them as being equals, maybe you're the sexist.
These people may not have the fan base, but they have the same opportunities. You're blurring the lines of what's considered abuse and doing a great disservice to real victims out there.
2
I see news like this as not only obstruction of justice, but also tampering with truth by showcasing "accusations" publicly and practically bringing them to life in the minds of the public. Even if CK is found innocent of these charges, his career is quite possibly and irreputibly damaged from this kind of press.
7
When I was in 7th grade, I was walking to school from the 86th Street Crosstown bus stop and noticed a man with an erection exposing and stroking himself, sitting sideways on the seat of a car, with the door open. I ran. Two blocks later, I saw him again. I was terrified. I didn't understand why this was happening, but it had nothing to do with me. I was 12-year-old commodity. He could get away with it. That's all it was. I never forgot that man. The second time, he gave me a pleading look, "Awww, C'mon." I have never mentioned this incident before, and I'm 59 years old.
I can't help noticing that only men are saying that what Louis CK did was not as bad as rape. Yes, it is. Men's sense of entitlement and exercise of power in the sexual realm are the common denominators here, not a hospital report documenting injuries to a woman's body.
We are getting control of the narrative. The companies who control these men's careers are believing us now. When I first saw this, coming right after the Kevin Spacey story, I thought, "Oh my God, they are finally having to pay."
20
I'm a woman and I'm saying this is nowhere near rape.
Who knew that dropping your pants and getting off in front of someone you just met was a thing? That is one thought that has never crossed my mind. Most phones have a pretty good camera and a voice memo function. Use them and post to the internet. Body cameras. There not just for cops anymore.
4
I would like to belive that it is not true and a whole thing is only a witch hunt after Kavin Specy accusations... Whatever will happen from this point I'll still admire work of this man that have influenced stand-up commedy sceen very much.
1
I've noticed that Bill Maher and Trevor Noah cleaned up their comedy on their own. They're still funny by they got the message that misogyny is just not okay. If they could do it so could've Louis C.K., Bill Cosby and others
9
Ugh, another day, another powerful, overgrown boy preying on women. It's sad what a little power does to many men who are deeply unwhole inside. Nothing is worse than taking your own issues out on others, especially if they are less powerful and you know they can't do anything to you. Sick, horrible behavior.
Here is my real question though. I am a straight male in my 30s. I have loved, and chased, beautiful females since I was a teenager. But, I've never disrespected any of them. What happened in my life that I know and accept boundaries and so many other men just trample them? I guess if behavioral psychologists could figure this out, the world would be a safer place for so many women.
6
What happened? You happened. You aren't threatened by women. You have self esteem and don't have to derive satisfaction from demeaning women. Thanks for being normal! Shout out to the good guys.
6
If you have experienced abuse tell someone.
Make a statement to police when you can.
You might find that other victims have come forward and made statements.
Trust the cops and the prosecutors.
Avoid the media because defenders will argue for a mistrial.
(NYT take note.)
With support you can stop another person being hurt.
Trust the coppers and speak openly under oath at the trial.
Avoid bribes for silence because you are better than that.
"You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here."
Treat yourself kindly and leave your abuse to the coppers and the judges.
You take care now, you are never alone.
Bloody hot day today in Australia.
4
Stick a fork in him. He's done ... as are Spacey, Cosby, Trump, O'Reilly, the Amazon guy, et al.
Weinstein, somehow, proved to be the tipping point.
But I was wondering today ... Does Letterman get a pass in this new world?
1
I don't care. He's funny.
3
Why would this man think anyone: man, woman, dog or child would want to see his shortcomings?
A true puzzlement.
5
Sex,wrote Quentin Crisp, is the last resort of the miserable.
I don't for a second condone what CK is accused of doing, but life, like hockey and politics and standup comedy, is a contact sport. Comedy, especially, is an extension of one's being. The best comics have been an amalgamation of Holden Caulfield, Alexander Portnoy, Quasimodo, and the Brothers Karamazov. Standup comedy, like all comedy and drama, is at once tragic and comic, and evolved out of the template of psychoanalysis and free association. For anyone to even entertain the occupation of comedian is a sad admission of guilt and torment. So now what? Shall we all gather at the town square with buckets of rocks, tar and feathers, with nooses and torches? I mean, I get it. These women were wronged. Welcome to the world. My own back story makes "The Glass Castle" look like Charlie Brown's Christmas. Rather than spending my time pointing fingers and waiting for apologies, I sort of just got on with life. You lost opportunity? So did I. You lost money? So did I. Life didn't turn out the way you hoped? Take a number. I'm looking forward to CK's new movie.
4
Nah, not good enough by a mile man.
Do you like being wronged, hassled against your will and expectations?
When your dentist says he filled your tooth and he really didn't but takes your money do you just "get on with life"?
Louie, I think, will surprise us all with his smart and appropriate response to this.
You'll learn something bud.
And we will never get to see his new movie- the trailer looked very funny. Nor will we get to see his past work and even his TV series again, so goes the residuals for all the other hard workers on these projects who will also lose out on their pensions and income. So we are going to lose out on the loss of this crazy but brilliant comedian. Shall we examine the past of other dark comedians? Similar stories will emerge.
Did he actually physically rape anyone? Did any of these people actually violently rape anyone? Tired of this.
6
I'll ask you this respectfully. What would be your reaction if a grown man began playing with himself in front of you, your significant other, or children? I can't imagine your reaction would be so casual then.
6
So your line in the sand is violent rape?
Good lord.
What do you expect? We have a president who self proclaimed that he could grabber women’s genitals because he was famous, and then AMERICA VOTED FOR HIM to be leader of our nation despite this video taped admissions.
This is the new normal.
I am sure there is room in his current administration for Weinstein, Cosby, and Louis C.K.
6
Insulting? Obnoxious? Sick? Probably all of these. But why not just get up and leave or hang up the phone? And how on earth does this merit a Special News Alert from the New York Times?
Richard Rosenthal
10
Hey Richard--he does this to your wife. Is this still your reaction?
C.K. is definitely a very talented and funny artist. But, those who watched him perform live, have noticed that he mentions, as well as, imitates masturbation quite often, on stage. It is a borderline between funny and embarrassing, but in real life it takes on a more sinister meaning. C.K. should exercise a better judgement and restraint, without which we are all just a bunch of animals.
4
So Louis CK is a gross pig. News flash: listen to two minutes of his "comedy" routine, and that will become glaringly obvious. I dislike him and his ilk, and shame on all you idiots who bolstered his career by consuming his base, crass material. Having said all that, I'd also say the witch Hunt has officially begun. CK is perverted, and he made passes at coworkers, which I consider to always be a bad idea - but he asked permission, backed off when told no, never laid hands on anyone, and these women all willingly stuck around to watch him BY THEIR OWN ADMISSION. We are just one small step away from thought crime here - do we really want this world? CK is a pig, and a disgusting human being... but that's NOT A CRIME. At least, not yet.
11
It seems that some people think that his 'asking' before he forces the women to be part of his masturbating makes it consensual. This is pure abuse of which shock and awe are an integral part. It's like saying that because you didn't immediately look away when some creep exposed himself to you, you consented. Predators rely on shock, blurring boundaries and confusion to overpower women, or men. If the result is that they are confused, shocked and don't run, do we blame the victim??? Absolutely not.
8
Thank you!!!!! This irrefutible fact has eluded so many people, even women.
I don't even know who this jerk is, and I'm glad that these women are coming forward and speaking about their criminal and disgusting conduct. What I'm upset about, as a woman, is that the women waited this long before speaking up, and consequently, other women and men were exposed to these predators. I promise you, no man would have been able to commit sexual misconduct in my presence and get away with it. Louis C.K.,Spacy, Weinstein, and others, got away with it ,because they were allowed to, and no one spoke up.
1
Let's be honest, the only person traumatized by these non-allegations is Louis CK.
Pick your battles.
9
Louis CK the only person traumatized?! If he is, he brought it on himself. The battle is with people who like you who do not have the slightest clue.
It was obvious after his repulsive unprovoked attack on Sarah Palin what kind of dirt this guy was.
1
Louis CK also is a racist. He did a hateful, racist skit about Italian-Americans on SNL.
In addition to being a racist, it appears that he may also engage in horrible conduct toward women.
His career should be over.
Italy is not a race.
Making fun of white Europeans doesn't make you a racist.
He is, however, a sexual harasser.
Why is Louis C.K. getting more attention in the NY Times than Roy Moore, who will probably be the next U.S. senator from Alabama? Louis C.K. stands accused of being a pig (he is). Moore stands accused of sexual assault on a child.
12
Dear People (Men) who think this is just a weird perversion and poor LCK... imagine a male boss or coworker twice your size corners you in a remote space and says “Hey Buddy, is ok if I jerk off in front of you?” Still ok?
16
"Move over, Harvey. See you soon at Rehab." /s/Louis.
Just wondering: does this compulsion to get naked and masturbate in front of relative strangers have a name? Is it recognized in the medical literature as a thing at all?
20
Yes, it's basically exhibitionism.
6
Who is surprised? All the guy talks about is masturbation. Why did these women sit there and watch? Why are all these men (who I have NO doubt did all the lewd things they are accused of) being tried and fired from their jobs overnight before found guilty?
And the biggest question of all: Why is OUR PERVY PRESIDENT not being accused en masse by all the women he's molested and fired overnight?????
8
I think if the Trump cases were just now coming to light he would have a (somewhat) harder time deflecting. In the end I still think he would ovcome it because, as he has proved over and over again, hitting back 1000 times harder is effective. Not good, but effective.
2
The significance of public masturbation has exploded at the NYT. It used be trash gossip. As the Times noted about Pee Wee Herman, his 1991 arrest (for public masturbation) might have been one more entry on a TMZ.com ticker in a later time. Apparently, the Times is now a TMZ.com ticker. Trash news, that's how the Times used to view stories like this one.
8
And it is a very good thing that as a society we are rethinking this. "Trash gossip" as you call it is now very important as we are learning about this abhorrent behavior that is damaging lives.
Your labeling this article as trash is just another way you let perpetrators off the hook. You are part of the problem here. We do not need more silence. We do not need more silencing. We need conversation and to come to a new understanding.
3
In my relatively old age I have the advantage of comparison with an earlier period in comedy in which "working blue" was considered not only outside the limits of good taste but was considered a form of cheap comedy i.e., getting laughs by delving into areas considered somewhat taboo.
But the truth is that a couple of generations ago, the most successful comics pretty much stayed away from Louis C.K.'s kind of humor. Robert Klein, Alan King, Woody Allen, Jonathan Winters, and many, many others found great comedy in places other than in human sexual conduct, human genitalia, and human sexism. Deviancy is nothing new. What is new is it being okay with it on stage. Over time, the leaking of what can only be called bad taste into just about every level of comedy is a result of some disingenuous desire for truth telling when it comes to human sexual foibles.
The cultural icons we read about lately—who have now been pushed out into the spotlight by their victims—became what they talk about on the stage, or in the television and movie studio, or when enjoying the power of a big office on Mahogany Row. They've become the "pervs" they make fun of. They have lost the ability to distinguish between comedic satire and discretion; between power and the limits of it. Between good taste and bad.
In every aspect and kind of American popular culture, the coarsening continues. Where it stops can only be guessed at.
7
Being a 65 year old woman who has experienced multiple sexual assaults and one rape, I cannot imagine being asked permission by my predator if something he was about to do was okay with me. I cannot fathom having that option. That said, it is easy for me to say I would have said no to LCK and left. But I have never been in these women's shoes facing a big star asking permission to masturbate in front of me. So, I want to give these women my compassion, although I cannot relate.
2
I am puzzled by any woman who will just sit there while some freak disrobes and masturbates. Were they crippled? My feet would have taken me OUT of there and away very quickly.
12
Fight or flight coupled with the social conditioning of women to be polite and second guess themselves and the lack of general education for how to respond in these (extremely common but uncomfortable and often scary) situations. Maybe other facts, too.
This is ridiculous. Two women who were not employees of CK's watched while he took off his clothes and masturbated. Unless he was Superman in a phone booth, that took a little while--what were they doing?--checking email on their Apple watches?
10
There ought to be a category in between "perfectly acceptable behavior" and "criminal sexual behavior". Maybe what Louie C.K. did was "rude", or "bizarre", or "tasteless", or "gauche". It isn't necessary to interpret his behavior as a sexual assault (masturbating in his hotel room in front of two women who, after all, were free to depart before the scene before them fully unfolded). You believe somebody is masturbating during your phone call? Big deal. Hang up, or tell them to call back when they are done.
10
career over
1
I just don't get it. I mean, as horrible as the Weinsten/Spacey/Cosby/etc. acts are there is a certain clear rationale there. It is disgusting, and I'm so pleased people are speaking out and putting a stop to it, but it makes 'sense'. This Louis CK thing doesn't make sense to me, as a man, at all. Why/how did he first have this idea? What does he get out of it? Could anyone possibly think this sort of behaviour might be welcome? Even serial sexual harassers and abusers can say 'Well I thought s/he might reciprocate/like it', but this stuff.....dude, no one wants to see that. Anywhere.
It's just weird.
1
I'm amazed at, and disheartened by, the proliferation of defenses for this individual.
That said, it's fascinating to read one commenter who asked if "there are any good men out there?"
Polarization reaches its apex in media; that's not what I see and hear on the street. Same with politics. This country is not that divided and no, all men are not sick scum like this individual.
2
"Women for Trump"
Trump gets to kiss 'em and grab 'em and pee on 'em yet millions of women would line up for a date. Can anyone explain this?
One woman's ceiling is another woman's windowless basement.
2
If he invited the two women to his room and put on a porn movie, would that be considered sexual misconduct? Seems to be the only difference is he opted for a live show.
9
It would be very easy to discount the avalanche of women coming forward with tales of sexual harassment and rape, except that as a woman, I believe every single story. As a woman who was sexually harassed as a teenager by her own Rabbi, and who has worked for years in the movie industry, I can state without equivocation that this is a commonplace occurrence and not limited by profession, or common decency. It is a rampant problem and must be addressed by our country, and more importantly, by both men and women. Women must come forward and protest whenever and wherever this happens, and men must be made to understand that women will not be turned into instruments or receptacles for their sexual exploits or enjoyment. We are a modern society and we must respect both sexes and not foist our sexual urges on one and other without invitation, kindness or concern. There can be no exception.
5
This modern age has its own strange, often paradoxical view of sexuality and its expression. On the one hand, we recognize that what turns us on is a uniquely individual--and immutable--thing that deserves respect and the protection of civil rights laws. On the other hand, we expect those whose sexual urges/orientation fall outside the all-but-codified LGBTQ to pretend those urges don't exist, suppress them, and deny their innate and unchangeable nature. In reality, human sexuality is weird, unpredictable, and often dangerous. It asserts itself in ways that are so powerful that people will put everything else in their lives at risk for the sake of it. It involves behavior that can be violent, disgusting, oppressive, and dangerous. Sometimes, even in those forms, it is invited by others. It is every bit as powerful as the urge to eat and drink, with its power deeply connected to a variety of genetic imperatives, including reproduction. There will always be people who will act as they will no matter what the consequences. In fact, they may be driven to act because of the consequences and dangers associated with them. The idea that we can stop any of this is akin to thinking that we can stop a runaway train by standing in front of it.
While I'm hopeful that the all publicity around powerful men sexually assaulting, oppressing, and harassing women will have an ameliorative effect, I not very optimistic.
5
Sexuality has nothing to do with it for two reasons. First, these examples are all about the tilt of power. Second, as human beings we have the ability to control out actions. As adults we should know that control is necessary in every facet of life. If we have self discipline, urges of any kind should be easily suppressed. We no longer have that innate ability today. Starbucks exists only because we can't be denied our flavored grande mocha latte whenever we feel like it. Disney World exists because we now feel entitled to be amused and entertained. At our bosses great expense in cash and time, no less. Our homes have sleek appliances with custom cabinets and stone countertops, again at our employer's great expense. We have declared the right to choose our careers rather than the way it worked for millennia, following in our father's footsteps. When the communist Chinese get it right at Foxconn with employees working for $12/day and living efficiently and at low cost on the factory property, we capitalists refuse to acknowledge the implied entitlement society we've allowed to weigh us down. In the Army, one of the first things I learned was that good order and discipline ate paramount, above all else in any organization. Perhaps a new draft wood let us teach that once again.
I think it's erroneous to divorce the exercise of power and control from sexuality. Often, they exist hand-in-glove. And while each individual has the ability to exercise self-control, such control evades a large number of people -- and always has, as far as I can tell. My father taught me a few rules that were rather easy to adopt and seem eminently reasonable: (1) in the workplace, people are human beings, not men and women -- no sex, no romance, no flirtation, and treat everyone with respect and manners; and (2) in dating and relationships, ask first and take no for no -- if the no really meant yes, you'll find out in due course. Yet, human beings, both men and women, seem incapable of even following these simple rules of self-restraint. I think sex is so complicated for some, that even these simple rules take the gas out of it so-to-speak. We can be in denial about this, and claim that it's simple, but it isn't.
As a professional woman who loves his raunchy humor, I would probably be disappointed to hear LCK is actually an asexual prude. He flaunts his sexual insecurity as part of his shtick, and we all laugh— enough of us to sell out MSG multiple times!!! If one willingly accepted an invitation into LCK’s hotel room or trailer, please do not then claim harassment if he asks to pull it out and do his thing. He didn’t threaten harm. This is, in my view, an acceptable part of a person’s range of sexual behavior that may be done behind closed doors, famous or not!
Cool your heels, people, or we’ll soon see humor outlawed all together.
15
Nothing humorous about "pulling it out to do his thing"!!! Not funny.
3
No woman should be made to feel uncomfortable at any time, under any circumstances, by anyone, especially someone of the opposite sex. Period.
1
Right on!
Decades of perverse Hollywood vacuous ,"burlesque", productions ,portraying sexual neuroses and gender identity problems based on the disfunctional family lives of producers,directors and now"comedy stars ".............have been bombarded American public as "art" for decades.
The "entertainment" industry went even further, Glorifying emotionless and pornographic sexuality which has debased and defined women as sexual objects and defined the abnormal human relations based on films and tv as the social norm .
The sexual aberration and predation being exposed in all levels of society......is the result of social conditioning..........on all levels of society.....which continues to portray,unwholesome models of human relations,..........unabated !
1
All the recent news about these sexual predators and deviants is very disturbing as well as surprising to me but I am equally confused by all of the women that have protected them. You are victims but also enablers... protect your fellow women and come out with the truth immediately.
2
Hello? CK is famously the father of daughters. If tables turned & they encountered a situation like these grim scenes, could he be complacent? Could he, somehow, rationalize away? Would it be ok, in some bizarre calculus, for others to do to his beloved children what he, apparently, has done to the no-doubt-beloved children of others?
7
Why was Roseanne Barr, a woman comic, ignored? Painful to think how easily this was ignored only a year ago.
4
How is Roseanne's act even closely similar much less the same as this creep? Do you have some hidden info that she's created sexually harassing situations for young women?
“He abused his power.” Uh-huh. That's not all he was abusing.
3
this is a distraction from kevin spacey. louis ck is a great comedian. kevin spacey is the worst of the worst, and so is John grissom.
3
Wouldn't it be great if all of the famous comedians fired Mr. Becky?
2
He is finished; get rid of him, and rightfully so.
1
Thanks to all the women who are stepping up, putting predatory men in the spotlight.
Senator Elizabeth Warren talked about one of her professors chasing her around his desk when she was a student and she didn't say a word until now.
The best question to ask is, "What girl/woman hasn't endured unwanted sexual advances and/or sexual innuendos in their lives?" My guess is none.
Women and socially conscious men must keep the spotlight on this behavior. It is NOT acceptable at any time, in any place. One simply has to ask why men who behave this way are considered "powerful" and worthy of any kind of adoration. They are scum.
6
Public servants, executives, people in power, yes they deserve to fall.
But are we to be deprived of an artist's art too? Too, too many could not stand up to such scrutiny.
Yes, I have been raped, I have been sexually assaulted. I have been shown kindness by men I'd thought were great people only to discover their interest in me was something altogether different from what I'd hoped. And the way this works on a person may have begun to be told now, but not fully. You really don't want to know.
But I am not about to just turn over every facet of my life to victims.
The craving this man had to humiliate himself in front of women is sick. But I am angry that somehow there is an agreement now that we can no longer have the benefit of his comedy.
What of the victims, you ask? Comedy is a tough business. If one guy, performing acts such as this, drives you out of comedy, then I have to rely on the old line of Kate Hepburn's Eleanor of Aquitaine in the film, Lion in Winter.
"If you are broken, it is because you are brittle."
Another comedian, Lenny Bruce, once said, "What is, is. What should be is a dirty lie."
This shouldn't happen. But if you want to live more than a simple life you need to grow a hide. You think the victims' lives have been damaged? How damaged was Louis C.K. to have done this?
5
Comparing your experiences as a man to what these women experienced is horrendous. As a guy, you expect a certain amount of guff. It actually serves to toughen you up. I had my front teeth knocked out in a school yard when I was ten. It was considered a learning experience. Likewise, bosses treat women employees much better than male employees because women have fought for that right.
Louie CK's damaged psyche is no excuse. What you don't seem to realize is that women already have "tough hides" because at any time, any place or any where and by whatever means a man chooses, she can be violated in body, mind and psyche. You have no idea apparently of the real powerlessness of women or what it means to live a life in a body that is thought to be constantly available to any man that fixes on her.
My experiences with the piggery and "privilege" of men includes:
- a man masturbating on a bus into a hat while sitting in the seat next to me staring at me,
- any number of men running their hands over my rear end as I walked along the street wearing business clothes,
- endlessly bothered by men in various jobs I've held throughout my career for dates or drinks and never, ever accepting the first "no",
-a man who came to the courtyard of my building drunk in the middle of innumerable nights howling at my window then ringing my buzzer from the lobby which so disturbed my fellow tenants that the landlord threatened me with eviction
-having my desk stuffed with porn when I worked as a dispatcher for the old Smith, Corona, Marchant business machine company.
I could go on. I'm an average looking female-nothing special. So don't talk about "tough hides" buster. Live like a woman for a few months or maybe a year and see if you have the guts or a hide that's tough enough.
Since when did masturbating in front of women become acceptable "game?" This is insane.
5
The article begins with a description of a situation where two adult females were invited for drinks at an adult male room where he asked them if he could masturbate in front of them and they "laughed". The article does not indicate they said no nor that they asked him to stop. So while I am certainly not condoning this type of behavior and also fully aware of the point that is being made by the article; that powerful man should not use their position to intimidate women into situations they are not comfortable with and that are, in many cases, abusive, the line between what is innapropriate and what is criminal didn't seem to have been crossed here.
7
They also, apparently, could have left.
1
I am dispirited and shocked - naively so, perhaps - by the number of (not surprisingly) men exclaiming "so what?!" about this. What an incredible rationalization - that because CK didn't touch these women, "asked," and in some cases apologized years later, it was apparently no big deal.
Here's the thing: the very fact that a man alone with a woman / women, in a professional setting, should even bring up anything sexual, let alone exposing himself to them, is 1) inappropriate, 2) harassment, and 3) an act of predation. The power differential just makes it worse, but really, it doesn't matter who or where you are - women are not simply available to men as vessels for their sexual fantasies by virtue of existing in the same space as them. CK, Weinstein, and so many others, apparently miss this fundamental fact. If you think "asking" makes a difference, you're missing the point. The point is that that interaction should never even take place.
What's hard to understand about this?
14
For a very long time, I really liked Louis CK's humor, his shows and jokes. And I still do.
But now, especially as a guy who finds these kinds of behavior horrible, sad, and, frankly, quite puzzling ("what is so appealing in masturbating in front of strangers?!") - what shall I think of him?
Am I still allowed, in some moral sense, to applaud his jokes, if and when I find them funny?
He's the first in this long list of publicly shamed sexual harassers who I truly liked and had (or have?) sympathies for. This new revelation is just sad and confusing.
2
There is something I just don't get: is "miming masturbation extensively" in his act supposed to be funny?
I can think of only one word for that: vulgarity.
In order to be "liberated", do you have to be vulgar?
Why are so many American singers (from Michael Jackson on, & especially female singers, from Madonna on) so terribly vulgar?
Why do so many young American men get drunk before making love or use date rape drugs? There is definitely a problem there: 1st of all they probably can't remember a thing after & I doubt whether their performance is much of anything.
Why is sex equated with dirt? As in dirty jokes or dirty old men?
Ah, l'art de la séduction. Now that is something else.
4
WAKE UP AMERICANS. We have a bragger and self proclaimed female genital grabber who was elected the leader of this country.
What do you expect?
6
This so called comic was doing his thing long before POTUS came into office.
On what planet is it somehow ok for someone you're not in a relationship with to whip out their penis and start masturbating in front of you? The fact that he even ASKED is sexual harassment--especially given he only asked, it appears, women who were far lower on the rung, work-wise, than he was. That he asked if he could (which is gross and creepy and startling and since he's a comedian, who in their right minds would believe he actually meant it and it was not a joke) does not change this.
Then to have his manager, who's of the biggest in the game, essentially run interference for him? Loathsome.
1
A running, and troubling, theme in these stories outing serial sexual harassers is the anonymous victim who refuses to reveal themself, but whose story is ‘corroborated’ by another anonymous source who confirms that the anonymous victim told them the story shortly after it happened x number of years ago. Is it just me, or does anyone else think this kind of reporting is just garbage? I’m not commenting on what I think about Louis C.K., but I do think we’re looking at a national witch hunt the likes of which we haven’t seen since the early in Clinton’s first administration when the hounds of hell were unleashed in the corporate workplace with new EEOC rules against sexual harassment. For every person I saw who probably deserved to have complaints lodged against them, I saw at least two who were destroyed for no reason other than spite. Eventually corporate HR offices got better at handling complaints, and it got harder to get your boss fired just because you didn’t like him. These days though, these people are being targeted through the media, whose job isn’t to determine the truth or to be fair, it’s to sell ads and generate clicks. I am absolutely positive that the Weinstein’s, Spacey’s and Toback’s of these stories deserve every amount of scorn and legal trouble being heaped on them, but every frenzied witch hunt eventually destroys people who don’t deserve it. That’s going to happen here, if it hasn’t already, count on it.
3
Oh please, give us a break.
These are adult women who should be able to consent--or not--when being asked permission. You are so "embarrassed" or "shocked" or whatever that you cannot say a simple "no"? When did women become so infantile and vulnerable?
And to expose everything in public and hence to destroy the career of one of our most brilliant comedians without any kind of fair hearing...this is truly turning into a witch hunt, and even a liberal woman like myself is feeling repelled by the whole thing.
64
Brilliant comedian? By whose standards? Not mine.
8
Give you a break? No I will not. You know what makes women vulnerable to these men? The men.
Why must women walk around with a preemptive layer of protection in order to safely breath the same air as men? Why should we have to change OUR behavior?
How should we strong liberal women coexist with men in an invulnerable way? What does that look like to you?
Why must the burden be on the women to take themselves out of these horrific situations? Whether these men are in a position of power or not, it is not black and white why these women are unable to flee as quickly as you would like them to. Why can't these predators stop coming after us? Why isn't the onus on these men (and women) to stop breaking the law in the first place?
Let's stop blaming the victim shall we? The only thing infantile is your comment. And I for one am "embarrassed" and "shocked" that you would even post such tripe.
16
Infantile? No. Vulnerable, when a man who is larger than you out of nowhere asks to commit a sexual act and then, without any kind of genuine consent, pulls out his penis? I'd say feeling vulnerable is not only a natural reaction, but the exact reaction CK wanted. That's the turn on for him; it's an act of aggression.
Shame on you for blaming the unwitting victims of his sick game.
19
Seems like it might be easier to keep track of those males who DO NOT harass the ladies. I have lost count of those who do and those who don't..........
6
What is it all the, 'liberal' commentators on here don't understand about the phrase,' accused of'? It should be obvious to anyone who cares about justice that a chasm lies between, 'accused of' and 'guilty of'. Or does that only apply when it suits your agenda?
5
Innocent until proven guilty only applies in criminal court because you can be deprived of your freedom. Everywhere else, you're subject to public opinion. And rightly so. Louis CK and Harvey Weinstein have absolute rights in court when if the government prosecutes them. But they don't have an absolute right to direct movies, tell jokes on stage, write books, give opinions or shine shoes for that matter.
brace yourselves - more and more famous men will now and forever be infamous.
About time!
1
Even powerful good men in the media who knew of these men and their "behavior" had nowhere to turn with what they knew - that says something right there.
"Newsman Chuck Scarborough says he got a credible tip that James Toback was a sexual predator in the 1990s — but he only had enough information to broadcast it in-house.
Speaking at Audrey Gruss’ Hope for Depression Research Foundation Luncheon, Scarborough confessed that a producer friend warned him about Toback..."
http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/gossip/confidential/chuck-scarb...
2
Reminds me of the widespread international clergy abuse and how one news organization exposed it under tremendous pressure to hush it up .
2
I'm a man and feel so glad that this horrible behavior and the popular figures committing it are being revealed. I'm angry that so many readers actually worry that it is going to far! KEEP GOING!!!! Sunlight is the best antiseptic!!!!! It's simple, "Keep your hands to yourself." "Treat others with respect."
10
Whatever happened to due process? The accusations alone were enough for the New York Times to publish the story and enough for HBO to cut ties with Louis. These are ACCUSATIONS and Louis has the right to defend himself against them in a court of law. This is all starting to smell like McCarthyism. What these women are accusing Louis of are charges that can be prosecuted through proper legal channels. If the alleged victims want justice, let them obtain it through the justice system. That should have been their first step, not going to the NY Times. This is nothing more than shortsighted character assassination. People are lining up to shame Louis C.K. after hearing just accusations. They are the ones who should be ashamed. Let Louis have his time in court. Let the accusers present their testimony, let Louis tell his side of the story and let a judge – who does this for a living – decide. I'd kindly like to ask everyone with their finger pointed to take it down until due process has been completed.
6
What charges? He raped them?
Indecent exposure comes to mind....
The skit about Dave Chapelle's sex contract from 2004-ish seens more relevant than ever before. Both have to sign saying the actions taking place are OK.
3
Although these acts of indecent conduct are entirely unacceptable in terms of societal norms, they weren’t nearly as damaging as what Harvey Weinstein stands accused of. An article published by the New York Times carries weight enough to crush a person’s career and the it seems to me that this could have been handled quietly.
As other’s have already alluded to, Louis C.K. has already been frank about his thought processes in his comedy routines and it is not that surprising that the line between fantasy and reality was crossed.
Perhaps the publishing of this article will have an ameliorating effect on Loius C.K.’ s sexual conduct for the foreseeable future and maybe we can all rest at that.
So how did he abuse 5 women when 1) was over the phone and she can't prove anything 2) one consented to this repeatedly 3) another he asked and she refused and he didn't do it. At most he "abused" two women who were probably drinking with him and came up to his hotel room...way overblown.
6
Exactly. This is a witch hunt. The whole time that I'm reading I'm thinking...ok and? Ok and? OKAY AND?
Shouldn't be huge surprise watching anything Louis. When restrained, he is brilliant. People who bought tickets know who he is. Should he really be crucified for being astute at what sells? Or is society breeding ground for this behavior and in the glare of sunlight self-mutilates.
I must admit I am very torn about the Louie CK story – and I’m torn because I cant distinguish if its because I am male that I see it the way I do, or am I being intellectually honest and unemotional in what is now a blizzard of revelations about the predation of so many men upon so many women.
I see Louie CK as vastly different than Bill Cosby who drugged and raped – yes its rape- women, Kevin Spacey who plied under , and legal age, less powerful than he, with drinks to molest them. Different than Harvey Weinstein who used his physical bulk, his vast wealth and his position of power over women to molest them and then use his wealth to insulate himself from the repercussions of his heinous acts.
This one seems different – he has a sick fetish, one that entailed non consensual acts upon innocents – and in that regard he deserves some punishment – it also seems he has vanquished that demon within himself. I’m not making an excuse for him , I’m trying to understand. From what I read, he did not drug and molest, he did not physically force and he did not threaten careers.
So I ask in all honesty – because I think its important question – how does a reasonable man – a man who wants to see the end of a world where the Woody Allens, Harvey Weintseins and Cosbys can run free and where must live in fear, view these situations that at least to me are not so clear cut?
I’m sure I will be castigated for this post – but I am also certain that others feel a similar conflict.
56
To the commenters who defend Louis CK by saying that he asked for permission, please note what happened next: the shocked women understandably asked if he was joking, whereupon he stripped and did it anyway. How is that consent? In this case, asking for permission appears to have been a rhetorical question.
I understand the commenters who say the women should simply leave or clearly say no. But please consider what that moment would actually feel like. When a woman encounters a man who suddenly exhibits unhinged sexual behavior in a private setting, this is almost always going to elicit two reactions: disbelief, and freezing. You say the behavior wasn't threatening, but think of this from the position of someone who is much physically weaker than the unhinged person. As a woman, I have not encountered a man who did what Louis CK did, but a few times I have been in situations where a man I didn't know well did something that suggested that he was sexually charged up and that he had no sense of societal norms and boundaries when it came to sex.
This was immediately a shock and panic moment for me. All of my instincts kicked in: to pacify the stronger party so I could escape with my life, because this man just did something that suggests he might do worse and I have zero chance of defending myself.
Please apply some empathy here. No, this behavior isn't Weinstein-level stuff, but to reduce it to "just a bit weird" is to ignore how female self-preservation works.
18
Thanks for this well written comment that enlightens and shines light.
Important light.
I hope Louie can speak, be heard and apologize and explain. Especially to those he wronged.
Yes, wronged.
It's not a good thing he did.
I hope we all listen and react with our best angels as our guides.
1
Those two women waited until AFTER he was done, to "flee" his HOTEL room. Why were they in his hotel room anyway? I don't think that was a business meeting to begin with. Going to his hotel room for a business meeting is inappropriate in itself. This story, for him, is embarrassing for him at most and in no way criminal.
1
Well put
I'm an old man and very happy I have never heard of this guy.
1
Saddened to read this report but moreso some of the comments. How can anyone dismiss this gross behavior as anything but abusive and threatening? He was in aposition of power, and so was his agent. Read the story. When a young man in a car drove up and exposed himself to me I felt threatened. When college guy in a dorm called out questions about the color of my pubic hair as I walked to class, I felt threatened. When my boss’s colleague addressed me as “ Sexy” instead of my given name I felt threatened. Because of shock, size sifferential, their numbers and the all to frequent “ locker room” excuses, and because of my lower status on the organiztion totum poll. This isn’t brain surgery! Put yourselves in our shoes, for once guys. And, no, you wouldn’t love it. We’re not trying to ruin your careers; we just want you to stop this horrible behavior - or stand for us when you see it.
62
He was unknown to me in 2006 when I saw his pilot episode of "Lucky Louie" on HBO, a discomfiting sitcom where he repeatedly was caught masturbating by others in the kitchen. It could have been an edgy gag, but its awkward repetition suggested a darker and more damaged source.
3
Seriously -- who does stuff like he is accused of doing??
So let me get this straight: in each incident, Louis CK asked permission to masturbate in front of a woman/women and either she consented and he touched himself, or she said no and he did not touch himself. So now even consent should be considered grounds for assault/harassment? Don't get me wrong, I think he's gross and I'm not into the fetish of humiliating women to watch him as he acts out his own compulsion to humiliate himself. But at what point exactly are women willing to take any responsibility for their own decisions? I'm a feminist, I value my agency and I don't want an administrator to make decisions for me, or police human sexuality; once you permit the policing of consensual acts, be prepared, a few steps down the road for your reproductive rights to be regulated. And, please don't tell me that this is the same thing as a nonconsensual assault - if you do, you're telling me that physical, nonconsensual assaults aren't that bad. Louis CK is a hypocrite and not my idea of a good guy, but if I say yes to something that I know makes me feel uncomfortable, I have to understand and accept responsibility for my role in the situation.
14
I am human, physician a child of God. Mr Louis C.K. has made me touch my own humanity with his analysis of human/divine behavior. He is right, we man are awful as sexual partners, we are insensitive, hostile and demanding. But these behaviors are not criminal. Masturbation is not a crime. Pedophilia, Rape and any other kind of sexual abuse is a crime. The ladies who are offending by Mr. Louis C.K. behavior, they deserved our full support, they need to be pay for pain and suffering, Mr. Louis C.K. has no right to masturbate in front of them.
Mr. Louis C.K. touch my humanity and divinity in me, with his outrageous , analysis of reality. This is a Creation, we are alive because of God Power and will, we need to get close to God, not to any man, God and Thy Divine Spirit,
I hope this situation get resolved, I hope there are not criminal charges, or if there is any, punish him, but allow him to come back to us.
I am human, I am a Physician, I am a Child of God.
We need to make American Great Again. in all aspects of life. Our Children deserved to have a good country to live as adults. I love all Americans, I hope we can overcome our weakness. Lovefren
"In the late ’90s, she was working in production at “The Chris Rock Show” when Louis C.K., a writer and producer there, repeatedly asked her to watch him masturbate, she said."
Sorry, but this is classic textbook sexual harassment--notice the word 'repeatedly.' If she declined the offer once and he kept asking her, that is when the harassment began--does not make a difference if she eventually consented.
And this happened when Mr. C.K. was working for television within a corporate setting. Not some 'fetish' or 'deviant' activity happening in a hotel room late at night.
7
Enough! I used to think that the idea of 'rape culture' was a bit hysterical. I am appalled by the number of NYT commentators who are apologists for this conduct.
This article is not a debate about moral relativism - no one would claim that someone who repeatedly brandished a weapon shouldn't be scrutinized because other people have committed murder.
This article is about Louis CK in a position of power, repeatedly subjecting women to his preferred sexual proclivities. HE knows that it was wrong.
It is abhorrent and frightening that people excuse this conduct. Call me old-fashioned, but I think that all people should be able to conduct business or pleasure without the risk that a man will masturbate in front of them.
11
i imagined that the comedian had said something distasteful: reproachable but somewhat understandable given that he is a comedian and might have miscalculated and stepped across the line of what is acceptable. masturbating in front of some ladies? ew ew ew ew ew ew
Oh, Louie! Like the previous writer said, this is not the same as some sexist mogul using his power to coerce. It's more like the creepy guy masturbating on the subway at 2am. But for sure, his career is ruined. The greatest comedian of my lifetime. And I say that being old enough to have seen Richard Pryor.
2
Amazed I'm having to write this, but some commenters/mansplainers here seem confused:
Masturbation is indecent exposure is illegal is a CRIME.
12
Not in a private space.
These men, Trump, Louis CK, Weinstein and my former boss use sex as a toy in their tool box of power. When you say no, they get rid of you, if you complain they get rid of you. It's about time women and men put an end to this behavior. Employees and co-workers are not toys, we are humans with feelings. When my former boss told me he wanted to sleep with me and I said no that began a horrible campaign of screaming at me and blame that didn't end till I quit. A loyal hard-working 13-year employee was forced out of his job because of his boss' penis and there was no one to complain to. I think the Access Hollywood tape opened this Pandora's Box and thank goodness for it, it's the best thing to have come from Trump's presidency. So far it's the only good thing.
2
A man very little talent uses verbal diarrhea and offensive comedy to define and demean men and women. He needs his mouth washed out with soap and his butt kicked off of every stage. Millions of women and men are covering their ears against offensive comedy,! Enough already you dogs in heat ( no offense to dogs!)
1
It’s hard for me to judge a woman confronted by a man that asks to masturbate in front of them. Their reaction may depend on so many factors! Their maturity,self assurance, courage, etc. This perverted man knows this, the surprise factor that may freeze them and allow him enough time to act in this disgusting way, that may be part of his thrill-seeking behavior. So, to me it is clear who is in the wrong here, it is not the women who are exposed to this man’s perversions, it is he who knows he’s wrong and imposes his sickness on others.
6
Not surprised. Always a bitter undertone to all his comedy & I remember thinking when I watched him (once) that he was misogynistic in something he said. Everyone seemed to not see it or get it. I'm glad these women are coming forward. As usual, there are the naysayers & doubters. Let me ask you all: do you think women want to be disbelieved? Do you think they're having fun dealing with it all? Do you think it's fun having people deny your pain and fears. Just a hint - if a guy begins masturbating in front of you, what will he do next? Exactly. YOU DON'T KNOW. You can leave the room, but will he track you down & do even worse to silence you? Or destroy your career? I hope C.K. learns his lesson.
8
You only have to watch "The Aristocrats" to understand on what a razor's edge comedians dance mining the weird, the outrageous, funny, and god awful truth about themselves, and it they're to be successful at it, ourselves. We laugh because it hits home.
As much as the catharsis of outing Weinstein has been a good thing in that many victims of men like him are finally able to tell their stories about those men openly and find acceptance in a society that has hitherto largely ignored them, Louis C.K. is not one of those men.
Louis has a kink, a fairly innocuous one as far as kinks go. Those who cannot feel their way out of the vanilla sex box might find that icky, but the truth is it's not illegal. He asked before proceeding. The two women, Goodman and Wolov, laughed at his request, and then when he proceeded to do just what he said he wanted to do. And they did what? Stayed long enough to watch him get naked and start to masturbate. They could have left. They didn't.
I'm starting to feel a little queasy about all of this 'me too' business when it comes to accusing men in power of misconduct without their having any recourse in the mob of social media condemnation. Careers are being torpedoed on the say so of those who are now, in my opinion, just piling on.
I've been a victim of creepy dangerous perpetrators more than once in my life, but I don't like this. It's unfair.
7
You don’t get it. Stop defending these creeps.
6
So anyone who is disgusted by CK is trapped in a "vanilla sex box"? Are you serious? It's not his kink that upsets us; it's that he ensnared unsuspecting women, professional colleagues, into it. Like any sexual activity, kink and consent go hand in hand.
And why didn't all of these women respond with an assertive "no" and leave? As another commentator wisely noted, when a man suddenly demonstrates unhinged sexual behavior in a private space, self-preservation kicks in. Women must calculate the cost of staying passive versus defying and aggravating the unhinged man with his penis in his hand.
This is not a choice any of these women should have been forced to make.
32
Asking a women with whom you do not have an intimate relationship to watch you masturbate is abusive. Posing the question without ever doing anything else, is abusive. Any woman who hears that question walks away from it horrified and sad and angry. Any person who would put a woman in that position is contemptible and deserves to be ashamed.
Abusive behavior does not have to be illegal to be shameful. Weinstein appears to have been a rapist and, perhaps broke the law. Louis C.K. did not break the law and his violations are every bit as deserving of condemnation. The violation isn't the act, it's the effect on women.
Louis C.K. made many women feel unsafe, disrespected, worried, angry, sad and abused. Without breaking the law or injuring the victim, perhaps a person who recoils at the realization of what he has done and never does it again can be forgiven. A person who does it repeatedly, should not.
Louis C.K.'s violation is made even worse by the fact that he knew it. The fact that he apologized to some women for this behavior makes clear that he knew that he was harming them. Yet, he kept doing it.
This has to stop. I look forward to all sexual predators being exposed and penalized. I hope for the day when all men understand that women are not their toys and that they are always to be treated with the complete lack of sexual innuendo as other men.
14
I remember when I was 19 and in college many of my female friends told me stories that when they hitchhiked men would masturbate in front of them. I found it so weird and gross. I can only think they felt threatened that they would be forced to perform oral sex on these guys but it never happened. Still it was a form of abuse where the woman were trapped until they left the car. I get the same feeling with the stories told by the women with Louis CK.
In the end, all these powerful and abusive men using women for their sexual proclivities. Couldn't these guys just get girlfriends. What is wrong with them?
2
The upside to C.K.'s exposure is that his victims are getting vindication; the downside is that C.K. may be building his resume to run for president. . .of the United States!
5
Two adult women "still wrapped in their winter jackets and hats" are in a comedian's hotel room when he asks "if he could take out his penis" and then begins to undress. Creepy, gross, sad, horrible, whatever. But no attempt was made to coerce them, drug them, or exert professional pressure. I fully understand why admirers of this man feel disillusioned, but I don't understand why this is given coverage in the NY Times side-by-side with reports of child molestation by a major-party US Senate candidate. Adult women are not children, and comedians are not US Senators.
6
"may i masturbate in front of you"? "No, masturbate in front of your computer screen, you creep." What is wrong with these idiots? Get rid of all of them!
10
OK, so the guy is a wacko who liked to masturbate in front of people. From the accounts, he asked politely if he could do it - he didn't threaten anyone. All through the article it makes it clear that Louis liked to masturbate but always asked first - big big difference over Harvey or The Donald who just forced themselves on their prey. Then I read about Tig Notaro's show where she undresses on stage then turns so all can gaze at her double mastectomy scars - there's no problem with that because well, you are a captive audience. Show me the crime, show me where he forced himself on a women or ruined a career - since when is asking a question between adults considered a crime? Perhaps there were others who said, sure, lets do it together! Humans are bizarre creatures- some like to masturbate in front of people, some like to dress up like animals and have sex, some like to be beaten or infantilized - all a little weird but if its consensual - whats the issue?
8
C.K.'s movie on Netflix began with a "so funny" comparison between abortion and a bowel movement. It is now apparent how he gets his self-motivated inspiration.
The premier of CBS's 9JKL was devoted to the joy and humor of One-Night Stands. By the way, there are 20 million new STD's each year in the U.S.
The media has lost all sense of evil and we now have "The America We Deserve" - a book written by Donald Trump that would have cost him the primary if anyone bothered to read it.
1
Disturbing behavior to be sure, but we, and the NYT's, may want to prioritize who to concentrate on.... i.e. Louis is an entertainer, Roy Moore is a national/federal legislator who has the ability to affect millions of lives with his clearly debilitated decision making abilities. All of incidents are disturbing, wrong and problematic on many levels and need to be addressed accordingly. Broad spectrum solutions and transparency are needed, but though the entertainers may be more in the 'spotlight', we may find additional value in the drive to alleviate these types of behaviors, by focusing in on the misdeeds of legislators
1
Sexual harassment/assault is simply wrong.
The danger of the current wave of allegations, however, is that they are being treated as fact by media acting as a proxy judicial system.
Shouldn’t allegations be proven beyond a reasonable doubt or at least by a preponderance of evidence, according to established trial standards, before people’s lives and livelihoods are destroyed?
I personally believe most of the allegations, feel sorry for the victims, and am pleased that sanctimonious (mostly liberal) Hollywood and media celebrities are being exposed for their hypocrisy.
But beliefs and feelings aren’t enough, even if they are correct. Proof according to judicial standards is required. Otherwise, we risk embarking on another witch hunt or Red Scare.
5
Addendum:
Although I welcome the exposure of liberals' hypocrisy in this case, I also welcome exposing hypocrisy of conservatives as well. There is plenty of hypocrisy on both sides.
I think one day we are going to look at this 2017 outburst of indignation, not as some corrective, but as a moment of madness, of craziness, of accusations and character assassinations undertaken against men who are famous, rich and may or MAY NOT have committed sexual assault.
How is this unmasking of private sexual acts going to further the fair treatment of women? Who in the world does not worship power, money, fame, success, and who in the world does not desire the young, the beautiful, the vulnerable, and where are there human beings completely perfect who do not sometimes cross the line and offend?
Every man who ever said something sexual to a woman is not a predator. Every man who behaved "inappropriately" is not a criminal. Every woman who hurls a 10, 20 or 30 year old accusation is not always telling the truth.
The whole story here is about power. Who has it, who uses it, who benefits from it, and who, if the timing is right, uses it to take down idols and heroes and stars, and feels vindicated if those shamed men are pilloried in public.
7
Louis covers this sort of stuff in his act. I'm not terribly surprised to find out that he actually performed it. Anyone who has actually seen him perform should not be surprised. Shocked? Yes. Surprised, I wouldn't think so. Yes, it's lewd behavior and he should be ashamed if he did this without the women's permission. But this is not a hanging offense. It's a misdemeanor (legally) at most.
One can't help but wonder why those with such huge talent also often suffer with crippling faults. Being human is a struggle. Being a human with power must be a real war with oneself.
1
I haven't seen anyone mention the flipside of this issue. What would have happened if it were a woman asking a man if he would watch her masturbate? Would there be cognitive dissonance? You bet there would. Discuss.
I do not understand why men like Harvey Weinstein, Louis C. K., Kevin Spacey and others have their lives and careers ruined, while Donald Trump is allowed to go on with his. At least 16 women have accused Trump of various sexual assaults. He calls them all liars, and that's the end of it? Why is he allowed to get away with his abominable actions, but these other men, some of whom are not accused of acts as terrible as Trump's, are made pariahs? Kevin Spacey has been erased from films not even released yet, because presumably he is too horrible to even look at onscreen. Yet, Trump goes on, bullying and humiliating, lying and bragging, while his accusers remain shamed, silent and invisible. Does no one else see something wrong here?
8
Bill Clinton got away with worse than anything Trump has been accused of, and you were probably one of the ones making excuses for his actions. Do you see anything wrong with that?
1
Did he use his authority to coerce sexual cooperation or retaliate for refusal? Did he accept "no"? If not then it isn't sexual harassment. It is just weird and I don't care if he is good, only if he is funny.
3
KBronson: You don't care when a man devastates the lives of girls & women as long as he makes you laugh?! Then YOU are also part of the problem.
Where are the women accusing the Trump? Would you please investigate that.
4
You've got a lot of apologists here because you've got a lot of Louie CK fans and we're sad about this. he's clearly got a sickness (which was obvious in his work) --kind of an old school Freudian perversion type. I'm not sure if his intent was to abuse power (unlike some of the other recent cases) but he did nonetheless and it was harassment and the women were in no way to blame. But it's also ok if we have some empathy for him too,
1
Forcing anyone to do or suffer through anything sexually objectionable cannot be condoned under any euphemism...
2
If Hollywood is rejecting abuse and misogyny while Republicans elect sex offenders, then our world is changing. Who know how this will impact our culture and sense of decency?
1
Robots are coming to replace women just in time.
3
Sexual and violence misconduct serves as the bedrock of entire industries, economies and cultures collectively referred to as "Hollywood." Great fortunes are built and maintained there. Much of our "liberated" and "educated" society glorifies this misconduct on screen and on stage. How can we be surprised and even horrified to learn that these entertainment elites (even those like CK who provide us entertainment at certain levels) act out and have done so for generations?
1
Am I the only one who thinks the plotline of I Love You Daddy is bizarre? And all about sex. This is the type of crap Hollywood puts out - placing these thoughtforms into the subconscious of everyone who views the movie. Because alot of the people behind movies like this are sexual weirdos (understatement). It is their subconscious world view, it is their reality and through their movies, try to make it everyone else’s worldview too. All these people, Weinstein, Spacey, etc are just the tip of the iceberg. Its no coincidence that what Louis CK was actually doing happened to be a theme in his comedy content and that the movie contained a character who happens to act like Louis CK. Its a subtle way of communicating. Speech, any kind, does not happen in a vacuum; meaning that what comes out is either conscious or unconscious. Conscious people choose their words carefully, unconscious people will tell you all about their issues and innermost secrets if you know how to recognize the clues in communication. Everyone thought Louis CK’s routine was a joke. Is it funny now? It’s actually true. Louis CK dumped all his subconscious sexual stuff on every single person who ever watched him. That is definitely not funny. I am glad I never watched him. Being a conscious person, I have realized i cannot unsee what i have seen nor can i unhear what I have heard. Therefore, I guard the boundaries of my subconscious mind from unwanted programming ferociously.
2
I find guys like Louis to be a bore since their penises seem to be all they can apply to comedy. He's a walking talking satyr play. Half time at the tragedy/comedy factory. Unfortunate that he reveals himself to be nothing more to those who do not pay for the performance.
Get a stage, Louis. No one wants to see you practice.
2
What a pathetic excuse for a man. What guy needs to engage in such behaviour if they have any self respect. It's time we start recognizing the Cosbys, Weinsteins, Spaceys, for what they are, scum bags who have gotten away with outrageous behavior simply because they are rich and powerful. Time for us to stand up to decency and take these guys down a few notches.
3
Nr Devonic: Very interesting that you missed naming the most pathetic excuse for a man. This celebrity is allowed to remain in the WH even though the WORLD knows he's committed unconscionable acts against women & girls. The guy named Donald Trump needs to be mentioned in EVERY list of misogyny & sexual abuse. And he needs to be brought to justice.
Maybe I am from an older generation who doesn't "get-it" -- but when a man whips his thing out to masturbate and a woman is offended (I would be!), why not just walk away or out of the hotel room or wherever this is happening.
10
Tiburon110: Why not?! Because power structure. Because power-over. Because men have the means to control situations no matter what you do. Because you're younger & physically smaller & you've been taught to obey those older & in power. Because you've been conditioned by the culture to defer to men & to fulfill men's needs. Need any more reasons?!!!
My mother used to tell me stories of when she was growing up in small town Kentucky. she would laugh and talk about the flasher who would now and then expose himself around the neighborhood. My grandmother would say 'oh that was crazy Joe'. She would describe with humor the few times when my grandfather would chase the peeping Tom out of the yard yelling ' get on out of here'.
But when the stories moved to the big town of Ashland where the folks were rich, the stories weren't so funny. Wealth and power is intimidating. Louis CK may not have ever intended to retaliate against these women if they told, but forced secrets seem as lethal as any weapon. A theme of great literature is just how corrosive to the perpetrator and emotionally devastating for the unwilling victim that secrets around a taboo behavior can be.
75
He did reach out to people he offended attempting to make apologies, illuminate his bad behvior long before this came to light.
2
Reading abut Louis CK was bad enough, but the comments section was even worse. Our entire country needs to relearn values and ethical behavior. These comments make me never want to be in public. I had no idea how many men felt men had a right to behave this way.
13
Jane Smith: I'm shocked as you are by the comments. Many men (too many men) and some women who think it's all right! Totally fine with them that the group (men) at the top of the hierarchical power structure use power-over & prey upon those beneath them (women & children) in the hierarchy! The solution has to come at the societal & cultural level: attitudes need to change to where it is NOT acceptable & NOT considered right to use power-over & to devastate women's lives this way.
Ya this guy has a big fan base and that says something very telling about our modern society. We have all heard and many laughed at extremely crude jokes said in the boys locker room etc... but few people would have ever thought of standing on a stage and making a living at it... He did and found an audience ... which says we have a much bigger cultural problem then this guy alone.
4
Shame that the NYT has to say, "The bars were closed and they wanted to celebrate. He was a comedian they admired. The women would be together. His intentions seemed collegial." in an effort to make sure the girls are taken seriously. There's always a lingering question in sexual abuse/assault cases such as, "Why did she go to that bar? or party? or walk alone?" As though women should sit around and ask themselves if they can do those things, and that if anything happens it will be there fault. That's the implication which the NYT is making with these words!
4
Let the law and the existing, evolving body of definitions of sexual harassment and criminal conduct guide us.
Let our experience help shape the laws after healthy doses of deliberation and reflection.
Let moral standards - not trespassing upon another, showing common, simple respect - be reapproached and reawakened in us all.
Let vindictive, petty instincts and mob thought not intrude on our deliberations and reactions.
Let a desire to help and heal guide us back to our fully human selves, to living in community. Even to forgiveness.
It's not beyond us.
Let's open ourselves to improving and decent process, while realizing how imperfect we all can be.
1
We'll probably see him treated relatively with kid gloves on the late night shows not so much because he's less known than Harvey Weinstein and Kevin Spacey but because comedians look after their own.
2
If Tom Hanks is accused of harassment, I'm done.
12
Sexual, predation has long been seen as the prerogative of powerful and creative men. Our society has blended this in its cultish worship of powerful and creative men, like Harvey Weinstein. I am very glad that when these acts comes to light, the reaction is negative, instead of "oh well."
When being a sexual harasser triggers the same type of disgust and contempt as, say, a pedophile or a bestialist, we will have gotten to the right place.
2
Boy, with each passing day I feel like a better and better human being.
3
I'd like to hear what he has to say about all of this.
2
Why is anyone surprised?? This is the same miscreant who launched a savage verbal assault against Sarah Palin's baby with Down's Syndrome, an assault so heinous, I will not repeat what was said. I don't remember alot of outrage from the media,only a great deal of sheepish rationalizing and prattle about artistic license. I guess that baby is on the wrong side of politics. This guy showed us who he was on multiple occasions and we made still made him rich.
2
Of all the high-profile sexual harassment cases, this one hits like a gut punch. I adore Louis C.K. as a comedian and want to give him the benefit of the doubt. But I know that's what allows this type of misconduct to continue. Even if it was a mistake and he makes amends, these women's careers were ruined. And that's real damage no matter how you look at it.
2
How can you hold on to someone and laugh and scream and be paralyzed at the same time?
1
Ha! Welcome to a woman's world. Gross, hilarious, shocking.
The nasty, controlling part of this story is that the women were told to keep it a secret. Why? How is this their problem?
They should be able to tell anyone they please, with all the yucky, cringe worthy details. They should be able to go up on stage and make it part of their comedy routine, if they wish.
Clearly you've never been a victim of sexual violence by someone you know and respect.
Beware the woodwork women
They are waiting, they are waiting
Don’t think that you’ve outrun them -- you cannot run that fast
It might be years and years before they crawl out of your past
Beware the woodwork women
Beware the woodwork women
They are hiding, they are hiding
Like cicadas that lay dormant for a dozen years or more
They are waiting to get even – to settle that old score
Beware the woodwork women
Beware the woodwork women
They are watching, they are watching
One day you’ll turn around and see one coming after you
Then others will come piling on - shouting out “me too!”
Beware the woodwork women
2
If anyone has anything or anyone coming out of one's woodwork, then, truth-be-told, the actual issue is that their kitchen is filthy.
3
Looks like we're undergoing our own 'cultural revolution'.
Sad.
1
Louis C K is flawed. So am I. He thought horrible things. So have I. He did the stupid thing in front of people. That's the line. He crossed it. I did not. I did think about. Shame on me. I had better impulse control than he does. Or, do I? He and I both come from twisted Catholic childhoods that brought us those thoughts. His sickness leaked out. Mine has not. I laugh at his jokes. I love his on-stage style. I feel horrible for him. Louis C K represents a side of American culture that I can identify with. He needs to go away for a decade or so and go back to playing small clubs in big cities his audience still loves him.
1
Girls coming to a hotel room is not news. Back in the 1970's, the Milwaukee Journal said two girls came to a hotel of a country singer in Milwaukee, knocked on it and entered it. He was arrested. Two girls came to a cartoonists hotel in another part of the state. The door was open. He was arrested. The Milwaukee Journal never published his cartoons after that. First year of high school, teachers should tell girls not to go to a man's hotel room after a performance. Another solution is to prevent girls from entering a man's hotel room after a performance. Then there are older women, saying they are Miss Texas or Miss Illinois, fleeing to Miami looking for wealthy men at clubs open to men whose entrance fee is $5,000 a year or more.
We can also tell men not to sexually harass or abuse women.
The distinction for offense should be whether the person used power to assert his or her sexual ambitions on another person. Consensual sex between relative equals, no matter how peculiar, should not be the basis for ruining someone’s career and livelihood.
In the case of Louis CK, my question is whether he was asserting some power over the people he engaged. From the descriptions, it sounds like he asked permission. Does asking another adult not under one’s employment or control to have a sexual encounter constitute abuse?
Exploiting the power difference is the abuse, otherwise it’s just sex. We should be careful so that the episodes real abuse and real trauma are the focus.
97
"In the case of Louis CK, my question is whether he was asserting some power over the people he engaged. From the descriptions, it sounds like he asked permission."
Louis CK may not have been in an *official* position of power over these women (he wasn't their boss), but he had unmistakable power in all of these scenarios as a result of his stature and experience in the comedy field. These women were all in comedy and looked up to him as someone whose career they should emulate, and Louis CK could have helped or hurt these women's careers through his influence. Sure, the women had a "choice," but it didn't feel like much of one since saying no meant risking professional alienation.
7
Oscar Wilde said “Everything in the world is about sex except sex. Sex is about power.”
3
They WERE under his power. They were up-and-coming comedians and he was a popular, established comedian who had the power to aid them in their career, or stall their career.
Just because they were not his employees per se does not invalidate the power differential. It still applies.
10
Our society has our "idols"(sports figures, actors, politicians etc) and are presented in the most flattering way by an industry of smart competent public relations professionals to sell this "idol" product. We buy it by tuning in, purchasing it and maybe even emulating it. When we get a chance to see what's behind the curtain for some of these "idols" we are repulsed not only because of their actions but because we feel deceived. That is why I believe these revelations swiftly make these "idols" pariahs. The contrast from perceived perfection to deviance is too stark for the public to handle and the public craves swift justice even though in this country one is presumed innocent until proven guilty. The only exception (for the moment) is Donald Trump. He was elected President despite the public seeing clearly what was behind this "idol's" curtain and astonishingly remains President.
4
He's a comedian; what did you expect? We need to find a way to deal with these problems AND still forgive people, if they've admitted their "crimes" and tried to atone with the women.
We live in glass houses, no? It's time to turn down the outrage and outright shunning of people and work on the fixing and healing. If there's criminal behavior, that also needs to be dealt with.
4
Don't get me wrong -- I'm not saying any of these allegations that have become public over the last month or so are false. And being a female and having experienced some sexual harassment, I'm certainly not saying sexual harassment is acceptable.
But, if I look at it objectively, as a disinterested as an observer, this
last month, with all the public accusations, it's beginning to look at least a little bit like the Salem witch hunt or McCarthyism that occurred in Hollywood in the late 40's to the mid 50's.
11
Dear R in D:
The Salem witch hunts and trials were hogwash. You understand that, oui? The whole point in referencing them is whenever people gather as a mob of unruly and angry zealots, things have a tendency to get out of hand. This scenario has occurred myriad times throughout history. Mob rule brings out the torches and pitchforks types.
Tail Gunner Joe McCarthy's witch hunts were different. McCarthy was a political opportunist (is there any other kind?) who Commies everywhere. In the Fifties, as the heat of WWII in the Forties cooled down, it turned into the Cold War. Not only McCarthy but many others, Republicans (Nixon anyone?) and Dems, climbed on board the anti-Commie bandwagon. They used it as a means to further their careers. It finally collapsed in on itself, when the fervent fever of finding Commies behind every curtain, iron or not, became so shrill and ridiculous it was exposed for the fraud it was.
But not before many who actually had been members of the Communist party (we were once allies) had their lives destroyed by blacklisting. Unlike the Salem trials, there actaully were Communists and their sympathizers, especially among liberal Hollywood/New York types. McCarthyism was an example of being ostracized for being what you are, like a Muslim, an immigrant, a member of the LGBTQ community is viewed today. As Seinfeld said, "not that there's anything wrong with that". This is a lesson which needs a refresher course.
DD
Manhattan
Or that we have a pattern of systemic misogyny and sexual aggression that is pervasive in our culture and finally enough is enough. You have said it yourself... It has happened to you. Why is it so hard to believe it happens to others?
While it's true that male misbehavior exists in any industry, Hollywood is unique in that there is something else involved, which is not being discussed in any of these articles about Weinstein, Spacey, and now Louis CK: Drugs. Lots and lots of drugs. By which I include liquor, pot, and the harder stuff, like cocaine, ecstasy and meth. I used to work in that world. I've seen it firsthand.
This does not at all excuse male misbehavior, which is after all criminal (let's never forget that!), but it sheds a light on why certain women did not run away while they were being victimized. One woman who accused Harvey Weinstein (I forget who) said she was drunk when she opened the door to her hotel room to let him in (at which point he attacked her). The two women who first laughed when Louis CK disrobed were stoned - this is mentioned in the original Gawker article. Intoxicants complicate matters because what is horrifying the next morning may not have been perceived that way when it happened. Maybe the two comedians with Louis CK laughed because when high on marijuana everything is funny. Maybe some of Harvey's victims let him touch and penetrate them because they were too drunk to fend him off. And of course the perpetrators are surely drinking and drugging too.
I've read enough Hollywood memoirs to know that drugs are rampant in that world. Everyone is letting themselves go at night, only to wake up the next morning and realize something was very wrong.
7
Commenter Max in Boston says "This is like finding out that Santa Claus is a serial killer, or that Head and Shoulders shampoo is made from kitten bones or something."
Stick with comedy, Max. The kitten bones thing is pretty funny.
2
Dear it's mild eyes:
Haven't you seen "Bad Santa"? As for Head & Shoulders, well, the less said about the ingredients in that product, the better.
DD
Manhattan
1
In reference to AB's comment, yes there are still good guys out there. They are extremely rare. I say this not only because of the past experiences shared with me by literally every woman i ever dated, but because of the behavior i myself have learned of directly from these types of deplorable men. Unfortunately, there are women predators of all sorts out there as well, and good people are magnets for evil...men and women. Unfortunately, it seems these perpetrators gain more from their evil behavior than the rest of us do from our sense of respect, dignity, loyalty and consideration of our fellow men and women, which is all the more reason to commend the brave women coming forward. The only way this despicable epidemic will see an end is by bringing these creeps to justice.
1
Sexual misconduct includes sexual harassment, sexual assault, sexual abuse, and any conduct of a sexual nature that is without consent, or has the effect of threatening or intimidating the person against whom such conduct is directed. In at least two of these cases, this doesn't seem to be what happened. He asked, they stayed. I doubt he could have stopped their careers as he was not a power broker at this point. With that said, he certainly has a fetish.
1
This breaks my heart. Thank you Louis, thank you Cosby, for destroying that one special place, comedy, that gave me safe haven from the horrors of the world.
3
I appreciate all the comments against this behavior. I was a little worried when we elected a President who exhibits the same type of behavior (well not exactly the same, so far as we know), that sexual misbehavior would become the new norm.
2
To all the (mostly) men who think this behavior is not criminal - you all need to inform yourselves of the law in your state so that you are educated on these sorts of behaviors. In Pennsylvania, where I am from, one of the crimes is open lewdness. It's a misdemeanor punishable by up to a year in jail. Indecent exposure is a misdemeanor punishable by up to two years behind bars. If the allegations are true, then they are CRIMES.
I have been a huge fan of Louis CK for years. I was on his mailing list. I purchased the entire Horace and Pete series, and the movie "Check It" from his website. I saw the entire Louie series on FX. I have seen all his comedy shows available on Netflix. The man is brilliant. But we should not be giving him a hall pass because of this brilliance. We all live in a society and we all must follow society's rules. It is breathtaking how many comments seem to shrug off this behavior and instead call negative attention to the victims here. Some of the comments actually go so far as to judge the women for the way they reacted to this traumatic experience. Some comments shockingly have a nice little gold seal to signify they are "New York Times Picks." The patriarchy is more entrenched than I ever imagined in this country.
8
It's not patriarchy. It is simply people who have also abused other people in one way or the other, who are trying to scapegoat or rationalize what they did or even seeking redeption, or fear of being brutalized in jail.
2
Thank you for presenting an example of patriarchy; men schooling women on how they should view/define patriarchy. It is not simply "people abusing people." It's a specific man in power allegedly abusing specific women not in power. Just please stop with the whitewashing.
When I was in college, I saw three different men's indecent exposures in and around campus, was scared to death by them, still remember them. My reaction the three times was to run from them, thank God I reacted that way, but those experiences taught me that you have to avoid walking alone at night (or during the day) in unsafe places (where there are few or no people around). One of the occasions was in a public bathroom, when I opened the stall's door, there he was! I avoid dangerous situations as much as possible, have warned my daughters of sick people like these. Can't believe this guy thinks it is OK to ask a woman if she doesn't mind being exposed to their sick sexual urges. Do men think they are God's gift to women? And that we secretly want to see them do this? I wonder....I don't like this comedian, always seemed to dark and weird for me....glad I trusted my instincts!
1
I do believe this was the weirdest thing I’ve read this year. And I must confess, I chuckled a few times, so I guess this guy must be a comedian!
2
I've always been a fan and an advocate of edgy, dark comedy, but now I can't help but question how many of the really dark sexual jokes Louis CK made had some truth to them. I'm sad not only because it got a little harder for me to defend the idea that comedy should be provocative and push the boundaries of what's "acceptable," but also because I really liked Louis CK. Maybe because I liked him I was willing to overlook a certain rape "joke" he did in the early 2000s, or his benevolent sexism in endorsing Hillary Clinton last year (see interview on Conan's show from 2016 -- the one shot in the Apollo theater), where he essentially said Clinton would be a good president because she was a mother. In any case, I am sad and disappointed.
1
So, not rape. Not assault. Not harassment. Not molestation. But "misconduct." I am a little perplexed as to what this means. It sounds like something out of a military handbook.
3
If the punishment for such behavior losing one's career why is Trump still president.
6
John Lennon was the Walrus -- he said so several times, only once suggesting it was Paul. Then, in 1970 he sang "I was the Walrus, but now I'm John." People hunt walruses. John got shot. We should have seen it coming, as his art foretold. I mean, he wrote "Happiness Is a Warm Gun" -- he wanted to die.
Such is the logic of many people here who want to use Louis' material as moralistic, hand-wringing, I-told-you-so, I-knew-it-all-along "proof" of his deviancy.
If you didn't like some of his subject matter, you didn't get what he was trying to do as a comedian. That, or you're a prudish shut-in with delicate sensibilities and an inability to manage your response to what your mother told you were bad words.
So, he's a deviant, maybe. But don't retroactively judge his work because of it -- it is still some of the funniest material ever produced, and his show was innovative, cinematic and much more robust in thought than one might think a mere standup comic was capable of creating.
1
I'm not convinced, we live in a cesspool, where everyone and everything is tainted by peoples' inability to control themselves. I'm disgusted. Nothing will surprise me going forward.
1
In these cases, he asks permission. Isn’t that affirmative consent?
I think there needs to be differentiation along the degrees of perversion / harassment assault / rape. not to defend what he did - it’s perverted and weird. But is it so different than women exposing themselves? (Which is treated by the left as a right!)
4
It sounds like he asked first for permission, to do his, (sexual act). Clearly, they could have said, "no," which many of them did. If all were above the age of consent, then the only issue is that Louis C.K. is prominent in the entertainment business and could have an implied pressure for the victim to say yes.
Don't all celebrities have that power? It's the power people crave to actually become a famous celebrity.
Bottom line, if they did not work directly for him, there would be plenty of room to just say no. If they did, well, Louie, we got a problem. Maybe he can bunk up with Mr, Weinstein in his re-hab facility.
1
RE: "but sounds like he gave women the opportunity to say no."
This is nothing but putting the onus on others to stop our bad behavior - else "I'll take it as I have their approval to behave as I wish."
That is what we do now. We sit in the seats reserved for those who are elderly and disabled and say "if they ask me, I'll get up". We stand in doorways and say "if they ask me to move, I will". We play our music obnoxiously and talk on the phone loudly and say "if they ask me, I'll turn it down."
It's the "I'll behave like a jerk till someone tells me I am a jerk" morality.
A better morality: Treat people as you would wish to be treated. The old golden rule of doing unto to others as you would have done to you. Is it really so hard?
8
It's been 2000 years and we still have to deal with this. Yes, it is hard.
Go read 2 Samuel chapters 11 and 12 if you think the bible can be of any help here.
This parade of outing celebrities is beginning to sound like the National Inquirer. Being the intellectual resource it is, I would like the NYTimes to offer some academic-based analysis of cultural norms and human sexuality.
Everywhere I go I see women with exposed cleavage, high heels, skirts so short they probably expose themselves when seated, skin-tight leggings worn as pants, etc. Women would say they dress for themselves and like to look "attractive." What forms the basis of their definition of "attractive" if not attention from men? Indeed, in these very comments sections women have complained that if you are over 50, men don't even notice you anymore.
At the same time, men have absolutely no culturally sanctioned dress or behaviors that express their sexuality. Men have 10x the libido of women, yet are culturally forbidden to advertise. So maybe it comes out in weird ways? Not to excuse LCK's distasteful behavior, but please, can we have an intelligent discussion on the differences between male and female sexuality and expression?
164
The media simply can't afford looking at this too deeply as they are part of the problem.
4
If women dress sexy for men - and vice versa (men can dress sexy, so I disagree with you) - it is for fun. Most men enjoy that aspect of our free society without being lecherous pigs. Are we expected to become a nation of prudes because vulgarity has become commonplace? The discussion that needs to take place is more about power dynamics and how powerful men in particular use sexual predation as a tool to exploit and suppress women.
7
Your argument falls apart when you look at cultures where modesty is required of women (e.g., Saudi Arabia, India), where incidences of sexual harassment and rape are far higher than they are here. Even if all your skin is covered, there are still men out there who assume your body is theirs for taking.
11
I had a career in theater and remember a casting agent - a young female - telling me I was not doing myself any favors by wearing loose clothing. I was young and eligible :-) A well know agency had set up the meeting and was representing me. She dropped her head and me as a client when I responded in kind. I don't regret it.
2
These incidents are abhorrent and those that experienced them are to be supported; those that fomented them derided. One cannot help thinking that this society in particular seems to have serious issues generally with sexuality. Maybe it's in part due to our Puritan past, to the toxic religious injection of guilt into sexuality's mere existence, to the way we have traditionally held it apart from the melange of features that make us human and - literally - alive. Many of us eventually seem to come to peaceful, healthier terms with it; for some of us it is fraught with difficulty and even impossibility. For the latter, sexuality sometimes becomes confusingly mixed with power, anger, authority and other psychological issues. What once would have remained hidden, either through shame or fear, is increasingly being brought into the open. Hopefully, this portends a healthier attitude and not in the end just another weapon to hurt, exact revenge for other perceived wrongs or even destroy. We're human and fully capable of all of these.
6
I think back to the Seinfeld episode "The Stand In", where Jerry sets up Elaine with his friend Al Netche who is a stand up comic.
At the end of a lovely evening Elaine and Al are sitting in his car when "He took it out".
Jerry and Louis are good friends and I wonder if the two knew each other then. Also did the viewing audience find it offensive back then? I don't remember any outrage back in 1994 when it first aired or any outcry when it is shown in reruns today.
4
no outrage then or now. it's one of the funniest seinfelds ever.
what does that make me?
1
L C.K.'s behavior is disgusting, but I get your point regarding how pathetically ridiculous he is. Remember the Uncle Sherman doll in the seventies?
Makes you a guy who likes Seinfeld...But that episode isn't in my top 20 favorites.
Surprised that Jerry, George and Kramer let the guy get away with it and didn't confront him.
But knowing that CK opened for Jerry in the clubs back then makes me wonder if Seinfeld or Larry David knew about this.
1
The entertainment business is a highly fragmented mix of subsets (movies, music, television, live comedy, theater, etc.). The workers in the business are mostly independent contractors. Accordingly, there is no traditional functioning HR or compliance department. If there were, the Courtney Cox’s and David Arquette’s and Heather Unruh’s of the world would be demanding investigations, at least anonymously. So, predators are free to roam around and act out there predations. The only way, currently, the system controls the behavior is for witnesses or victims to “go public”. Now is probably a good time for the industries, perhaps through their unions, to initiate a compliance structure to enable claims to be anonymously reported and properly investigated.
7
As one famous, powerful and wealthy man after another is exposed (pun intended) for their lecherous, demeaning, immoral, unconscionable and often criminal actions against women, let's take a moment to remember all the women who will go to work today for men who are not so famous or powerful or wealthy and experience the horrors described.
Every female waitress and secretary and assistant and Walmart clerk and retail worker and factory worker and teacher has experienced it - or sees it happening - every day. The men who perpetuate this behavior at that level are not any of the things the Louis' and Ailes' and O'Reillys' and Halparins of the world are - the aforementioned famous and wealthy and powerful - not out in the world...
But in their own little corner, in their restaurant or shop or office, they have just a little more of all those things than their victims. The assistant manager at Denny's can get you fired as easily as Roger Ailes, and you probably need the job more than Ailes' victims.
So as you watch your wives, and daughters and mothers go to work today, know that many of them will not be able to just do their jobs - they will also be expected to "do" their boss to one extent or another.
This predatory behavior is so common - and can only be stopped by a sea change in the way we - as a society - see the "privileges of rank" and the continuing depersonalizing of women, for what they are, and make it abhorrent to act this way.
36
To claim that every working woman experiences it or sees it happening every day is absurd. Crying out against the depersonalizing of women at the expense of ALL men really offers no one any favors.
What's horrible about this (issue), though the #s aren't nearly as bad or high,..not reserved for women.
Something would be nice, proof it happened. Not someones words not backed up by evidence. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
3
Unfortunately these claims are not "extraordinary."
Not that we're in a courtroom, but testimony is evidence.
1
You're conflating if not confusing a Court of Law with the Court of Public Opinion.
And even then OJ, Drew Peterson, and Casey Anthony will tell you there's exceptions.
C.K. mined his perversions for comedy. An audience knew he was a bit off, but that was part of the humor.
Whatever happens, he's lost this humor reservoir. His jokes about masturbation won't be funny now. If C.K. has the talent and courage, he'll move on with honesty.
That's the difference between C.K., Weinstein, and others. They hid their perversions, but he used them for material. He could actually shed light, through his work.
Many see in these accusations a 'witch-hunt.' That's not true. But at some point people have to address where to draw the line. It's easy to say these men were wrong. But humans flirt. They misunderstand.
Are we moving towards a place where only women have the right to make a sexual advance? Maybe that's a good thing, or maybe it's like prohibition: it will spawn an underworld in opposition.
8
I actually appreciate you TRYING to address underlying issues but these famous cases aren't about: Flirting, Propositioning, "Comes on too strong",..for I think if that were the actual problem or issue, it would be vastly overblown.
This is about People (men mostly) without a filter and are very abusive towards others at least and criminals at worst.
IOWs, if your question "Are we moving towards a place where only women have the right to make a sexual advance?" were defending (using famous names/reps) the David Lee Roths, Dice Clays, Al Bundys, Sam Kinisons,..I'd Agree with your premise.
The reported actions of CK, Weinstein, Cos,... are the actions of that Creepy relative all kids are warned to avoid.
Breaking News in the NYTimes, the nation's best comedian likes to masturbate. Apparently, he likes to do it while women watch. He has the nerve to ask women if it's okay if he does it. When they say "no," he doesn't do it. At least once he has masturbated surreptitiously while talking to a woman on the phone. There is not even a hint of an accusation that he in anyway used his power to make women do things or otherwise degrade themselves. Again, he ASKS! And he does not lay a finger on them! If every man was outed and publicly humiliated for his non-vanilla sexual fantasies and practices, women would have all of the power because there would not be a man left standing. There are boundaries, of course. Underaged kids are off-limits. Using your power to make women feel they must do things sexually to protect themselves or their careers is off-limits. Louis did nothing approaching either. He acted on his fantasies. And he did it two decades ago. What if instead of masturbating, he asked if he could cross-dress in front of them? What if he just told them his weird fantasies? Might women not like it? Sure, Women are justifiably often grossed about by men's desires. But that is life. America, you've got to get over your puritanical fascination with sex.
41
Agree! And there aren't enough women saying it. I don't want to live in such a world!
2
The person with a prurient fascination with sex is Louis CK.
Would you say the same thing if he'd stripped and masturbated in front of your adult daughter? What if Trump did that in front of a pair of congresswoman? Or Obama did it in front of a female, adult page?
How does one read this whole article and display no understanding of the effects on the women?
A few thoughts before we all grab the pitchforks and torches in this latest NYT celebrity take-down...
1. An anonymous source says she willingly agreed to watch Louis CK masturbate 20 years ago and later had second thoughts? Maybe we're setting the bar a bit low for cases meriting career ending exposes?
2. If you admire Louis CK's comedy (as Goodman and Wolov apparently did), would you really be surprised if he asked to masturbate in front of you? As the article acknowledges, much of his comedy focuses on his own sexual perversions. Remember, this comedy has won him numerous accolades from many respected sources including the New York Times.
3. Is he not asking for consent in all these cases? Did Goodman and Wolov not consent? Why did they stick around laughing until he finished? Were these not two adult women in that room completely under their own volition the entire time? Maybe this is victim blaming, but shouldn't the reporters (and readers) ask these questions for a complete story?
41
A lot more of this kind of creepy stuff is likely to be revealed about movie and TV stars in the next few weeks. My guess is pretty soon we will have to switch to reading books, playing video games and watching cartoons for entertainment.
As a society we do need to reinvent, in some modern incarnation, formal detailed multi-stage courtship rituals, with more clearly defined rules and boundaries. People need to know both what is not OK and what is OK to do while pursuing a relationship. Otherwise I suspect that a lot more guys will start choosing celibacy of some sort, and will resort to sharing Louis C.K.'s fetish in private.
5
This. Is. Not. Courtship. Why would any man think a woman would find this attractive? This is a power play designed to humilate women for a perv’s gratification.
2
Does not seem like he forced anyone... Bad taste? Yes. Misreading the situation? Yes. But what is masturbating on the phone other than disgusting? What about asking someone to watch you masturbate? And what is all that about "He talks about masturbation in his shows?". Like it means something... What about all that dancing in Fred Astaire's movies? Are we going back to the Marylin Manson-Columbine link? I would expect more from the NYT.
10
Men and women both struggle to find a way to exist under patriarchy.
What is the alternative? Can we imagine such a thing?
1
Judging from the comments here there seems to be a fair amount of men who just don’t get it. If a work colleague pulls out their private parts and starts masturbating that is so beyond the pale of normal acceptable behavior and should be treated as criminal and at the very least as sexual harassment. If someone exposes themselves inappropriately I think that’s a crime. Also asking if you can masturbate in front of a work colleague is definitely sexual harassment. Please keep it in your pants and your sexual desires out of the workplace. If comedians regularly seek private space to decompress after work such as a hotel room and invite colleagues in there should be no expectation that anything untoward would happen.
Stop blaming women for the poor behavior of some men. If only she didn’t go into the room, if only she didn’t wear that outfit, if only she didn’t look attractive. If only she wasn’t walking down the street, if only she didn’t have that female voice and body. Maybe she should cover up entirely because men can’t control themselves.
Learn what is acceptable behavior and what is not. It’s not that difficult. If you have a hard time reading signals of others, err on the side of caution and don’t act like a creep. Why is this so difficult to understand?
55
um, did you miss the part where he ASKED in advance if he could expose the women to his fetish?
doesn't make what he did right. but it's FAR different from what weinstein did.
hopefully you understand the difference.
2
I'm actually surprised at folks using the "He asked,.." as a defense.
As if this is about Common Courtesy and Manners????
2
So “if someone exposes themselves inappropriately” you believe that to be a crime. Yet, when you want to assign blame, suddenly it’s okay no matter what the woman wears. What you really meant to say was that “someone” is a man. We all stand corrected.
Not to excuse the disgusting behavior of Louis C.K., but it's almost no wonder that he failed to see the line between simulated masturbation on stage and actual masturbation off stage. Stand-up comedy today generally dwells in the gutter. Sexual jokes, the more explicit the better, punctuated by f-bombs, is almost a requirement. It isnt funny at all that comedians can't seem to find humor in any other aspect of our lives.
3
When I was about 19 I was in the elevator heading to a summer job interview in NYC. I was doing the typical looking up at the floors avoiding eye contact. There was a business man in the elevator and he asked my if I knew what time it was. I looked at him to answer and he had his penis out. I was trapped in the elevator with him for several floors. I was finally able to get out and I was visibly upset. I was a kid and I told the women who approached me what happened and they comforted me. This was in the 70s. I saw 3 or 4 additional instances of exposure while running in Central Park.
Why do they do this? Do we notice a theme here? Men. Not saying women never do this type of thing but it is primarily men.
I am very glad the internet has leveled this playing field. #metoo
32
Actually if you read some of the defenses of these (reported very) Creepy acts, the playing field isn't being leveled,..
As much as it's revealing you (and others) may be in deeper waters than you thought?
Yes, it’s true. We all walk around with our penises out.
1
Another man says”it was a bad time for me” and starts offering weak, pathetic apologies to victims for what he knows was disgusting behavior. Blah blah blah. Weinstein. Spacey. Louis CK. The tip of the iceberg and they also show not only how low they will go in their behavior but how low they will stoop in a last ditch effort to protect themselves and their images. And how their lackeys bend over for them as well.
I sincerely hope that any other man (or predatory woman) out there who sees what’s happening will think twice and then think again before using those less powerful that themselves for some sort of sexual thrill. I doubt it, but one can hope. To paraphrase the movie “Network” - we are mad as hell and we’re not gonna take it anymore.
11
Buckle up. Might just be the first wave.
What most distinguished CK was the unflinching humility, yet while he undeniably worked hard to finally break through with the right comedic alchemy as a performer, as a writer-director he was absurdly overpraised and indulged until it got where, more and more, if he spoke long enough, out would slip a steaming glob of Hollywood arrogance.
In other words, having bought into his own hype, CK's showy masturbation was getting out of hand (so to speak) more than just literally.
Pride before a fall.
6
Guys, using women (or men) as props for your sexual fantasy without their consent is wrong even if it is not criminal. Imagine if that happened to you. You are a young (male or female ) comic, one of your idols invites you backstage, and proceeds to take off his clothes and masterbate. Wouldn't you feel upset, used, and dejected? You went backstage feeling elated because you thought you were being recognized for your talent, but leave confused and feeling unsure of yourself. Before the invite and encounter, you were riding high at just being asked to the venue, seeing your growing fan base, reveling in your good set; and after the encounter you just feel weird and uncomfortable. Men, admit it, you would be pissed off, and years later when everybody is talking about sexual misconduct in the workplace, and everybody seems to have a story, you would say, "Hey, I remember this weird sexualized encounter with Louis C.K....." 5 woman reported the same behavior, so it isn't like he did it once. Louis C.K is losing work now, but he is an amazing comic, and he seems like the type of guy not afraid to face his mistakes. If he apologises and makes amends, he will recover his career.
6
We know America has a problem with sex and sexuality. Our moralism makes it hard for large (majority?) portions of our society to accept that we are imperfect sexual human beings, and all that entails. Unlike the more socially advanced European societies and cultures, we Americans carry around a lot of shame and denial when it comes to sex. We will not see the full empowerment and equal treatment of women in America until we come to grips with things like a regulated sexual workers industry, healthier private attitudes towards sexual perversion, and thus better public awareness and laws on the bright line between what consent and power mean.
After spending some time in northern Europe, I wonder if what ails america is not really about sex/sexism and power, but about immature sexual/emotional development and an anemic public culture when it comes to sex and sexuality. I really hope Louis CK is a smart enough person to use his platform and current notoriety to open the public conversation about sexuality in America. I hope he doesn't listen to the PR mavens and try to manage the fallout by complying with what the industry and media consumers (you, me, we) want. I hope he's wealthy and smart enough to do something really new and refreshing in our public discourse.
21
Funny, I hope his career just ended.
2
As a survivor of workplace sexual assault, I applaud other survivors who brave the systematic recriminations for speaking up, often risking their careers to do so. Their accusations demand to be taken very seriously and prosecuted to the full extent of the law and, within each workplace, addressed seriously accordingly the established policies. My attacker slipped through multiple institutions via the old boy network, which believed what he said over what she said, arranged generous severance for him and rarely anything for her, including a series of non disclosure agreements that kept his future employers ignorant of his predatory sexual behavior towards his subordinates. And then he'd do it again. So I'm delighted that at least some perpetrators being called out, and their accusers finally taken seriously.
At the same time, I am appalled by the "guilty until proven innocent" mentality which seems to have taken hold, with untested accusations seeming to be sufficient. Being accused and being found guilty aren't supposed to be the same thing. Identifying and, I hope, prosecuting sexual predators is way overdue, but everyone is entitled to due process.
16
Thank you for telling us something of what happened to you. You must be angry about how this man slipped away, and profited. I hope you can tell your account as often as it helps. Men in obscurity should not get away with this, as some prominent males have not. I think about all the women who are hurting and want to speak out, but because their offenders are not prominent, they will not get the punishment they so richly deserved.
1
When we were kids in rural America ca 60s, on the farm lane we lived there was a guy in a trenchcoat who exposed himself to the kids riding their bikes home from school. He was arrested. Did he do lasting damage? Don’t think so. But that stuff can’t go on.
The fantasy life of the rich and famous has gotten the better of Louis, obviously.
3
There is no excuse for men abusing their power, but we must stop abruptly terminating the careers of people based on nothing more than accusations. It might feel cathartic for women to seize a long-denied power, but it is wrong to abandon the notion of "innocent until proven guilty" in the private world, just as it is wrong to assume the defendant is guilty in the court system. I've even heard one person say "of course he's guilty" -- just because a handful of people have said so, with no physical evidence to back up the accusations. This is dangerous mob behavior reminiscent of the worst civilization has to offer.
Now I realize it is a longstanding problem that women face threats to their careers if they speak up, but the answer is not to immediately burn the suspected witch at the stake, as it were. Attempting to erase people like Louis C.K. and Kevin Spacey from existence does not undo the damage done by the failures of the criminal justice system to fight misconduct 30 years ago, nor does it acknowledge that actors are people - human beings often coping with loneliness or desperation, not necessarily predators out to exert their power and harm others. People make dumb mistakes, and if criminal, should be jailed for it. That doesn't mean their entire body of work, talent, and history has to be immediately eradicated from society - certainly not without actual evidence or conviction.
15
There is rarely physical evidence to many of these offenses. Short of physical, sexual assault, there's often nothing, and it requires women speaking out. And that's what this moment of exposing their abuse is all about. People are ready to listen, and to understand. Large newspapers like the Times have tools that police and prosecutors don't. They don't have to wait endlessly for some phantom proof beyond the strong words of multiple women, though prosecutors must stop waiting and move forward to try offenders.
I do agree, though, that someone's work should not be wiped out because of allegations. I've been waiting for the publication of a book that has been or is being written by a prominent man in the news and book industries. He has also been publicly outed by multiple women and the allegations are disgusting, seemingly incontrovertible. Still, I'm fervently hoping his work, about the 2016 presidential election, will not be withheld. ( I'm talking about Mark Halperin, whose book also has a co-author. What about him?) Am I wrong for wanting their book out? I've enjoyed their previous books about presidential elections, as well as his news work. Am I wrong?
"Innocent until proven guilty" applies to arrests and indictments. This guy is an entertainer and these women have every right to speak out.
Your insistence on "physical evidence" is a joke, right?
Most of the men recently outed for awful,usually illegal sexual behavior have resigned. No one denied them due process. For goodness sake, Cosby is still out there getting another day in court.
I want to ask every man a question. How many of you have tried to go from 1st to 2nd base? From 2nd to 3rd? From 3rd to home?
Can you think of an encounter in your past that could be recast, re-remembered, or reimagined that could paint your actions as harassment, assault, or misconduct?
Hum!
14
It’s a shame that such a widespread character assassination can be based entirely on allegations in country where we’re supposed to be innocent until proven guilty (in a court of law not in the court of public opinion).
7
Yeah, in a country where they elected a braggart and self proclaimed female genital grabber president.
Shocking!
1
“Mr. Becky denied making any threats toward the women. “I don’t recall the exact specifics of the conversation, but know I never threatened anyone,” he wrote by email on Thursday..... This statement does’t ring true. Who talks like this, “exact specifics” unless they are trying to cover their tracks. He’s so sure he didn’t make threats but can’t recall the conversation? Not believable.
3
So a standup comedian specializing in crude humor is held to a higher moral standard than the president.
Makes you think.
51
How long before flirting is grounds for a law suit?
14
Hey Jim from NC,
Does your idea of flirting involve taking out your penis, getting naked, or asking a co-worker to watch you masturbate?
4
Exhibit A, Addison. Thanks Jim for proving her point!
1
Most sad is reading the comments of MEN (to judge by their names), who still find ways to temper the outrage of another man's sexual harassment of women. That's what this moment is about, fellas, and it ain't a "witchhunt" or "men blaming," it's just the TRUTH coming to the surface after many many years. Kudos to all the brave women who are speaking out!
20
That's assuming something happened. Evidence will be needed to prove it. Until then it's just rumor.
1
Apparently a lot of people don't know the meaning of the word allegation.
4
Yeah, Louis C.K.. But how is this the top story on the Times on a day when a leading candidate for the Senate was accused of statutory rape of at least one 14 year old girl and of having pursued several others? Weird times we live in. It's amazing that we're in this cathartic moment when women are speaking out about this. Or, let's face it, that more people are finally listening to them. But why is it we talk more about a comedian doing this than a man who could become a Senator who may have gone after a number of children.
And for weeks now why so much more about an actor who played a fictional president on TV assaulting people than the actual President who has been accused of the same? It doesn't matter if Republicans are molesters because their voters don't care? There's a check on celebrities because they can get fired and such. But we seem to be weirdly complacent about the grabber in chief in this regard. Not to say people don't complain about Trump. But isn't it weird that talk of that has just sort of gone away since the election. Doesn't it feel like he really just got away with it all?
16
I find it interesting how many men writing comments don’t understand what is wrong here. Louis C.K. has a lot of power in his industry, and our society is still in a place where a man like that can either advance a career or cast someone aside depending on how he feels about them. Unfortunately we are still in a place with women that sexual attraction is often a part of getting noticed in the workplace by men, and it happens all too often (I know from personal experience) that if you turn down an advance like that, he will easily move his attention to someone else and not want to see the sight of you again. His abuse of power was putting these women in a difficult situation and taking advantage of his status. He knew very well that he is Louis C.K. and therefor a woman would probably say yes just based on that merit. However, on the flip side of this, I have also seen many women using there sexuality to play men and advance theme-selves socially, financially or professionally, and discarding nice men when they got what they wanted. So it’s a double-edged sword and we can’t just say there will be no sexuality ever in a working environment, because it’s counterintuitive to human nature for people not to be attracted to each other. What we can change is our behavior, and I hope from all of this one thing so obvious that can be prevented- is women please never ever go into a hotel room if you are only thinking professionally or platonically! Meet them in a bar or cafe!
9
I can believe that sexual harassment, sexual assault and rape are far more commonplace than any people would like to think.
I can agree that a large share, probably a majority, of these accusations are credible enough to warrant investigation.
I can believe that for many if not most of those investigations to end in prosecution and conviction would be justice.
I can also believe that victims may be afraid to report such incidents due to fear for self or career, shame, self-blame/guilt, and so forth, and that we should be supportive and sympathetic of that.
Here's the catch: sex crimes are far, far from the only crimes for which that is true of victims. Criminal accusations need to be dealt with in a criminal court, where the presumption is innocent until proven guilty. The victim of any crime just has to take the risk, if he or she wants justice.
What I don't understand is why it is now acceptable to publicly and systematically destroy lives and careers on the pretext of criminality before the investigation has even started. Such lives and careers possibly, perhaps even probably, deserve to be destroyed, but isn't a bit of reflection in order before we do so, in a society under the rule of law!
If we want to switch to a "shoot first, ask questions later" paradigm, then so be it. But then let it be said loudly and clearly, with no ambiguity.
6
It is uncomfortable to be a woman of any age as accusations and revelations of criminal sexual behavior now swirl daily through so many sectors of our society. There are so few safe spaces left to occupy. Perhaps that’s why this latest information about Louis C.K. seems difficult to process. We now feel qualified to judge appalling behavior towards women on a newly created ‘sliding scale.’ Victims of sexual harassment and assault will only be victimized all over again if we let some of the bad behavior off the hook. Some people find Louis C.K. funny, but what he did was a crime. There is nothing funny about that.
5
Kinda icky, but how is this anywhere near a crime? It is so ethically wrong to trivialize sexual assault.
3
Just to be crystal clear, any sexual assault is a double assault.
The first assault is on your body and mind, your sense of self and self respect, and boundaries, daring you to stop the assault. Every situation is different but it is happening because the assaulter believes their power allows them to assault and to get away with it.
The second assault - especially when related to business or career - is directly against future career and earnings and reputation of the victims, who are shamed and penalized whether they speak or not, how they speak up, when they speak up. There has never been a right time or place to speak up because of the overwhelming balance of power held by the assaulter.
Until now.
Maybe. Hopefully.
5
And the bloodletting continues with reimagining, recasting, with motivations of financial gain of men maybe behaving badly but hardly illegal.
Here a thought experiment: How about women try to completely desexualize themselves. Dress exactly like men in loose forming clothes even to the point of hiding their breast if possible, no makeup, no perfumes, no jewelry, no curly perms and no flirtations at all. Let's see if men will instigate amorous encounters, as women EXPECT them to?
IS TAUNTING sexual harassment?
Do women who wear red lipstick, rouge, perfumes, tight form fitting clothes (think Luluemons) to send ancient biological cues of youth, vitality, to signal sexual readiness and availability taunting men who they know have 10x the sexual drive as they do?
Is that harassment?
5
The first time a man inappropriately was sexual with me, I was five years old. The next time it happened (by a co-worker of my mother), I was about eight years old.
It is not about how women or girls dress.
4
Here is another thought experiment - that what someone else is wearing has nothing to do with you! Its not some secret signal for you to interpret. Your interpretation comes directly from the world-view you hold in all levels of mind, conscious and subconscious. I would advise a deep long look in the mirror, as its you and not them. Your reasoning sounds similar to the justifications used in Islam for women wearing a head to toe covering - men cant control themselves so women are expected to be the ones responsible for gatekeeping mens sexual behavior by what they wear. Wait! Hold the train! How is it logical to expect someone other than yourself to be responsible for your behavior? Its not logical, yet when it comes to men’s sexual behavior, it is accepted as true and fact. It is actually an incorrect belief system. Incorrect meaning that when you assign power to someone outside of yourself, you have given yours away, that you are actually powerless and that is just not true. You feel powerless because you have not made the effort to control and discipline that small brain down there and it runs amok. That is not womens problem, its yours. There are ways to learn control, the info is out there.
2
Are you suggesting women should wear burqas when they go out? There are countries where it's like this and they also have problems with sexual assaults.
The entire society is becoming aberrant as far as sexuality is concerned. So, it is not surprising, and there are many more weinsteins to come.
4
We have many TV, Movie, Music and Political stars who have done time in jail, some for killing someone. Others have defrauded investors out of life savings. Some are nasty, crude jerks who cheat on spouses and friends. Yet they lead successful shows, are given awards.
Not to belittle the complaints, but what is the deal with summarily commercially executing for something like what Louis did? Even the taking advantage of innocents that generally happened long ago -- if the behavior is abhorrent, then we pass rules and laws against it and let juries of peers hand out punishment.
But since when did it become OK for an "activist" led crowd to use media to destroy INSTEAD of using our legal and justice system?
2
I think destroying people's careers when what they do behind closed doors don't actually cause real harm is "creepy," more so than what this guy has done. On that note, I think binge watching episodes of prestige dramas and compulsively checking smart phones is far more creepy than what Louie has done.
4
I'm not going to make excuses for the guy - what he did was gross. His responses described here suggest that he has a fetish he doesn't know how to address in an acceptable way. That's awkward and unpleasant for everybody, and something he clearly needs to deal with. It also dovetails with his Bukowski-like self-identification as a pervert and a creep in his material, which a lot of people relate to.
I'm divided about the outing of the perversions and abuses by powerful men in the last few weeks. Full disclosure, yes, of course, me too. And yes, I have performed the ritual of (limited) revelation. And yes, some perpetrators have come forward, if not to me personally, than in the pseudo-public forum of social media. Ok. At least now we're all standing out under the lights with our vulnerable bits out.
So, the conflict: the objective here is improvement, right? Bad actions do not make a person irredeemable. Nobody knows how to talk about this properly yet, and there's been a lot of fumbling around by powerful men who want to do the right thing, but who lack the vocab of accountability.
We can help to steer perpetrators towards improvement without destroying them personally or professionally. There are therapies (more than a week long, sorry Harvey) that help, and there's a whole industry creating appropriate outlets for 'deviant' sexual behaviour where it isn't victimizing anybody.
If the will to improve is there, we can do better than torches and pitchforks, right?
10
So many of the comments here (mostly from men) make it seem that this behavior is not a big deal. And that is the problem.
16
It's not a big deal. Women of my mother's and grandmother's generation knew how to stop a pass with a stern look or slap to the face. Of course these same women would never have gone into a strange man's hotel room in the middle of the night and thought conversation was on the agenda.
2
So much for due process of law. A person's career, livelihood, and even life can be ruined by accusations which have not been proven. The accuser can say anything she wants without even been required to take a lie detector test. While most of these guys are probably sketchy at best, a career should not be scorched without proof. And it's getting ridiculous at times -- Dustin Hoffman has been accused of being openly flirtatious in 1985.
8
Let's all use positive verbal consent only. And no boundary crossing--no men (or women) in power positions getting involved with anyone with an unequal power position. And every human should check their issues, any unhealed stuff so it doesn't get projected on others. And to the the male predators turned on by intimidating women and mixing sex and violence of varying degrees -- go get help -- please -- and wake up. Let's teach this to our young people.
2
I never found his brand of humor appealing. Something about him always creeped me out in a predatory way.
7
It was reported that Roseanne Barr talked about this guy's behavior for years. Either no one believed her or they didn't care.
12
i'm so thankful to those 5 women..
you don't even realize that you just gave Louie a material for new stand up show.
Can't wait :D
Thank you!!
2
I hope I never hear anything like this about Jon Stewart. I don't think i could ever get past that.
6
Humanity has never been pure or even 'near' pure. Hollywood lives off of sexual titillation so it's no wonder that many there are describing such acts. However there seems to be 'blood in the water' and a feeding frenzy is ensuing. Women are going back 40 years in some of their 'recollections' to attack men for youthful indiscretions even if grossly wrong. The ability to turn around a life and proceed finely, properly is being discounted as we hear of accusations in the political realm (of course no one is hitting Bill yet or his pedophile island buddy). Soon we'll hear a "nanny" say "so and so groped me when he was seven months old"... who lives a perfect life. A statute of limitations is evident in law but I guess not in social justice? Perhaps it should be. If you get assaulted why not report it sooner than 20 years? Oh, so fearful of the professional repercussions? Hmmm, what's that say?
We seem to be headed for a society where sexual advances of any kind become illegal (unless perhaps made by women). The comments are full of references to "predatory behavior", "abuse of power", "toxic masculinity", and we are told that every woman on the planet has been subjected to sexual harassment. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that all men have been guilty of harassment at some point.
It brings to mind a Louis CK sketch where he jokes (perhaps?) that in the animal kingdom, all sex is rape. Perhaps that equally applies to us, we haven't yet managed to elevate ourselves beyond our animal nature, despite the veneer of society. And perhaps that's why we laugh ever so slightly uncomfortably at this comedian who dares to illuminate our own animal nature?
3
I can't help noticing that only men are saying that what Louis CK did was not as bad as rape. Yes, it is. Men's sense of entitlement and exercise of power in the sexual realm are the common denominators here, not a hospital report documenting injuries to a woman's body.
We are getting control of the narrative. The companies who control these men's careers are believing us now. When I first saw this, coming right after the Kevin Spacey story, I thought, "Oh my God, they are finally having to pay."
9
If this man had a suspicious reputation of this sort of behavior, why were these women having a meeting with him and where he could display his deviance? Isolate, don't employ, refuse to work with this guy and he cannot commit these acts against co-workers. As with other celebrities the co-workers are part of the problem and enablement of the guy.
I feel like I just got an obscene phone call.
10
I don't really find him funny. And what has that to do with anything?
1
Funny how he built a career without you.
This is not the heinous Weinstein or Spacey or Trump or any other advantage assault that I thought was about to be revealed. Imagine a veteran actress, Alyssa Milano or Sandra Bullock proclaiming imminent nudity and areola touching in front of men they invited back to their room. Oh so vile. Where are the legions of victims, because women are equally sexual as men (it seems like math). LCK may have crossed a line, and he may have to pay for some hotel furniture rehab, but this is not assault, and it is possibly in the press to diminish assault. what you write says more about you than you know.
2
Who would have thought the naked male body causes so much trauma? It's wonder the women did not turn into pillars of salt. Or at least go blind.
4
The claims that he destroyed careers over this is a projection but that obvioulsy doesn't excuse the lack of manners. Where is the empathy?
And will men start calling out women who've traumatized them by flashing?
Men. You can't live with them, you can live without them, because you certainly can't trust 'em.
But if insist living without them is an impossibility, then please, for goodness sake, never take your eyes off him. We are a devilish lot, and yes, some of are good, but again too few to mention. You have been forewarned.
DD
Manhattan
Wouldn't it be great to read about strong women who hung up the phone, left the room or otherwise shut down inappropriate behaviour of another person, even a powerful man?
Must be possible, must exist somewhere, women please come forward, I beg you!
3
According to the Gospel of John, the Pharisees, in an attempt to discredit Jesus, brought a woman charged with adultery before him. Then they reminded Jesus that adultery was punishable by stoning under Mosaic law and challenged him to judge the woman so that they might then accuse him of disobeying the law. Jesus thought for a moment and then replied, “He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her.” The people crowded around him were so touched by their own consciences that they departed. When Jesus found himself alone with the woman, he asked her who were her accusers. She replied, “No man, lord.” Jesus then said, “Neither do I condemn thee: go and sin no more."
4
Kudos to NYT for this ongoing expose of famous men who for years have been serially (but somewhat secretly) degrading themselves, their wives, their kids, their victims.
For years they have gotten away with it while amassing wealth and fame/power. Our President belongs on the top of this pile of exposed, outed perverts.
Keep up the good work.
8
I think New York times is getting out of hand. Yes your Harvey weinstein revelation was good and well needed. But don't make a career out of destroying people's lives. Bringing in claims from 15-20 years ago about a well known celebrity from relatively unknown personalities is in my eyes not credible, especially in an industry that is filled with envy, hatred and jealousy.
It seems like this has become everyone's 5 minute ticket to fame, bash a popular celebrity about something that can't be proven but may seem likely because of his public persona that he built through his acts and there you go people are willing to crucify him instantly for fear of being caught on the wrong side of the debate. As many mentioned the time line of these incidents happen to be around when Louis wasn't even famous yet they mention that somehow going after him would have meant backlash. I'm sorry I need more than just 15 year old baseless accusations to convince me
3
So, it seems like in each of these situations he never forced anyone to do anything. They were free to say “no”, to walk out of the hotel room, to hang up the phone, or to end the interaction in any possible way. But most of them didn’t.
And the first pair of comedians, just imagine that, sat in his hotel rooms all through his “performance”, laughing! And then thay just walked away and started TELLING EVERYBODY about what happened!
I think what we see here is that Louie has an issue he can’t fully cope with, he made a bunch of mistakes, and these mistakes decided to come back years after and destroy him. I think it is not ok what these women do. Louis probably needs a good shrink (which we probably has), but he doesn’t deserve the destruction of his career.
He slipped, he apologised, he is working on it. They are out for revenge.
5
If a woman comes out with it, and describes it fully, and better yet, she told someone at the time or later, and has nothing to gain, and everything to lose from the trolls of our lives, and better yet, her accusation is echoed and mirrored by even one other person, then that’s it.
We may have lost his great edgy comedy in our lives, but the hundreds of nascent geniuses he flattened and turned away from comedy are suffering. They’ve lost more than he will.
If you find yourself feeling skeptical, shut up and keep reading. Those improbable statistics about rape, assault, harassment, misogyny, glass ceilings? They’re starting to have names and a history, and now we’re learning.
3
Besides their lack of physical attractiveness and top-shelf professional success, men like Louis, Spacey, Weinstein (and now Roy Moore) seem to share the view that their professional stature elevates them above the “ordinary” women and men they victimize. They apparently believe others exist only to serve as their playthings. They have more than earned their downfalls, and there are plenty of other smart, talented people to take their place.
8
Does anyone remember the 1980's "false memory" hysteria? This is beginning to sound the same. Where was the accuser of Arkansas Senate elect Moore's accuser for the last 30+ years? Recalls all of a sudden sexual misconduct? Where were these two women for the last 15 years? It looks to me Ms Goodman would know how to take care of herself. I have no doubt there is sexual misconduct. But as one actress said it was either giving in to Weinstein, or flipping hamburgers. She made her choice, it was Weinstein. What were these two women doing in a letche's room by themselves? They made their choice also.
4
Listen closely to his material and you will find a depressed, insecure, and sad comedic genius. His actions were innapropriate but they dont warrant global public humiliation.
2
I'm not overly sympathetic to the woman who actally agreed to watch Louis CK masterbate and then regretted it in the ensuing years. It's disgusting behavior all around, but so is going to a bar, meeting someone, and having sex with them the same night. Having said that, I recall partioating in such disgusting behavior (the bar behavior) in my early 20's and the standard, as I understood it then, was that if they said yes that night that was good enough (or at the time, fantastic luck). It was never situation where I was looking for a forever yes.
1
This seems like fundamentally different behavior than other sexual offenders like Harvey Weinstein and Donald Trump in that Louie ASKED these women whether he could do this with them and did not force them to participate in something against their will or abuse them. Whether Goodman and Wolov gave consent is unclear, but they don't claim to have said no when he asked. He has a fetish...what's wrong with that?
81
What's wrong with that?
Well, for starters, that conduct in the workplace with other employees constitutes sexual harassment.
7
If he had pulled it out in the middle of the "A" train and done it would that also had been just a fetish and therefore allright?Obviously,if he had asked first.
9
What is wrong with his fetish is that it requires other people to participate in it, the fact that he asked and then went ahead and did it anyway has no relevance. He should seek help for his fetish, not impose it on others!
6
once again, it's the systemic protection of the managers and friends surrounding the abuser that I find most disturbing. The behavior is disgusting for sure, but how does someone who does this over and over again end up considered an ally of women? Because he said the right things? Because he claimed to have liberal values, or to be a feminist, or support Hillary Clinton? It's just so weird that this kind of behavior can be swept under the rug for any reason. Once again, I see a celebrity who professes the political beliefs most en vogue at the moment to protect himself, a la Harvey Weinstein. Kevin Spacey did it with charitable endeavors. We as a society must watch out for individuals who wrap themselves in this blanket of good behavior. We must not "go along" with abusers. We must not be enablers. We need to be vigilant.
3
I think there's a trend of men shaming going around lately. I've noticed that it only seems to be men with ties to Hollywood or D.C. being accused. Keep in mind the word is ACCUSED, but yet their careers are ruined. Sorry but unless there is a conviction or an admission of guilt I'm not buying it. Not to mention the accusers are only saying something about it after the fact months or years later.
25
A trend of men shaming, eh? You have an entirely different perspective than I do. I see, instead, an acknowledgement of years of women-shaming, where sexually inappropriate behaviors have been foisted on women, who are treated as strange or inappropriate if they mention it. That is exactly why people (usually adult women and minors of both sexes) stay silent. Because of this air of shame that somehow taints the victim.
And what exactly is it when a man goes to therapy for his problem, as Weinstein and Spacey have reportedly done, except an acknowledgment of guilt?
7
Harvey's accusers are more believable because he shoved NDAs down the throats of so many people he was associated with. You only do this if you have something to hide.
The same is true of O'Reilly and Trump, they both seem very guilty.
I think Roy Moore and Louis CK deserve fairer treatment.
1
I have been masturbated at and ON by strangers with no ties to Hollywood or D.C. I don't know a single woman who has not experienced offensive, disgusting or violent behavior by men in all walks of life. If there is a "trend of men shaming going around lately" then it is about freaking time.
8
What are all these men in power semi-thinking? That they can get away with it? that it doesn't matter? Do we know what they are semi-thinking? Yes! It is on tape. Donald Trump told us. He is our President, and it is on tape.
32
There is one solution (though not popular). Celibacy before monogamy. Let's not forget that as a society we have accepted whole areas of behavior that make it more difficult to draw a clear line between appropriate and inappropriate behavior. CK' alleged behavior is unacceptable to me, but others may find it more difficult to find grounds for complaint.
5
fairly certain that it’s prudishness and celibacy that causes these societal problems in the first place.
1
A better solution is to remain celebate and free of relationships that district you from productive work. American business would be unstoppable on the global plain if our workforce was myopically focused on work and only work. My employer suffers extreme financial damage each year from the cost of turnover alone. When you add in absenteeism, it's downright criminal. Jobs don't exist for the employees benefit. Salaries are a necessary evil, worsened by liberal dogma, that result from trying to build a business.
Ok that is misguided and ignorant. Stop believing these behaviors have anything to do with sex, which in it's purest state is consensual, beautiful, and necessary for life. These behaviors are an abuse of power and control, a display of disrespect and irreverence for tht victims. Do not be deceived by what is on the surface.
My conservative friends tell me that you can do it if you are a star, and that the problem is that Louis CK did this *before* he was famous.
It's an interesting perspective, but hey, they run the country, so I listen to them.
13
I can't help but notice that only famous and wealthy people are being called out. Hmmmm.
11
Versus? Do you know every body else in the world? These behaviors are an abuse of power, most likely to be carried out by people in positions of power and wealth. Duh.
3
That means "You don't Know" if others are or aren't.
But you're free to contact EVERY HR Department, Police Department, Women's Shelter, Group Home,..you can find the means to contact.
2
Others get called out too, but it doesn't make the news because it's not newsworthy.
2
A lot of infuriating comments (from mostly men?) here. Reporting sexual harassment is not "silly", and delaying disclosure or doing so anonymously is not intrinsically suspect; in fact, it is a common feature of sexual misconduct and abuse cases.
No, asking women outright for sexual favours is not illegal, and in many cases may not be immoral - for example, if the other party is a previous sexual partner, if you are both flirting, or even if it's a complete stranger (although, ick!). But propositioning a non-amorous colleague or junior is obviously unethical because it makes the workplace a place of sexual danger. Such actions are at the very least selfish, irresponsible and frankly rather adolescent. More likely, it's also the first stage of actual harassment.
Perhaps more importantly, as noted by other (mainly female?) commenters, on a wider scale it can be seen as a strategic coordination by certain men to render the workplace inhospitable or dangerous for women, thus closing down options for self-development and career advancement. Is it because boys are being outperformed across the board at school and university that so many men take it upon themselves to assert their dominance in this way?
It's pathetic.
96
So women should only be accorded respect in the workplace? Sexual aggression toward women, in any form, in any place, is never okay. It is always wrong, immoral, socially unacceptable and boorish. It's about time that women can safely not only stand up to it but should be able to confidently push back against it and push hard. And it needs to stop at every level from the casting couch to supposedly innocuous unsolicited comments about appearance.
1
Thank you!
Why are we not talking about Trump and his sexual misconduct any more? It goes beyond a campaign useful topic and should not be allowed to be dismissed or ignored.
80
Or Bill Clinton's sexual misconduct? President Clinton should have been thrown out of office for his relationship with Monica Lewinsky. Who was the adult there who should have known better?
1
Amen to that! Sexual predator in chief, and I find it hypocritical, that some GOP members turn a blind eye to Trump, while blasting Moore. Both should be investigated and gone if found guilty!
1
He's a creep. And I believe the stories. But what I don't understand is why these woman just didn't get up and leave. And why the woman on the phone didn't just say I have to go and hang up. What's the deal with that? He didn't tie them down, he didn't threaten or keep them from going. .. And I'd like to say one thing about the second Kevin Spacey incident with the news woman's son. This really gets me. He was 18 years old, well beyond the legal limit. Plus nobody forced him to drink and sit there. Spacey touched him and made suggestions, I mean come on. When do people start taking responsibility for there own actions. Some of this is getting out of hand. ... If you don't like what's happening ... leave, get up, get out.
45
It makes sense to me. If you're raised to be "polite" being assertive is not something you get a lot of experience with. So most people will avoid confrontation for things far more minor.
I think about all the times I've seen someone else or myself let someone do something unwanted to avoid confrontation. I don't think raised stakes would make you MORE likely to be assertive. If you don't have those skills they are not going to suddenly appear.
40
If you read any medical and statistical papers on sexual assault you'll see that due to the common power imbalance, people (both women and men who experience sexual violence) experience a paralysis due to a form of shock - they speak of being unable to scream, move or react in the moment. Why blame the victims? Why not blame the perpetrators?
6
Those women and all women shouldn't have to fear career damage in order to act. Louis CK was wrong to even "ask" for their consent. As far as Spacey goes, the accusations against him seem to be an absurd case of me too-ism. There's no comparison between someone's disgusting sexist approach to women and a man or woman acting aggressively toward a male.
If you're famous, they let you do it. As for "asking permission" stunned and shocked silence is not consent.
27
I am surprised at the substantial number of comments here which appear to stipulate that as long as it was an invitation to participate in these rather bizarre acts, and not an outright forceful act, no harm was done to these women. Imagine your colleague inviting you to feast on his dismembered neighbor, and after the refusal (I'd like to think so) telling you - OK, then maybe you can help me with the quarterly report? Before you start to tell me about the difference between public indecency and cannibalism, let me say I am deliberately pushing the argument into the area of nearly universal agreement about what bizarre is (I hope). I believe that people come to work with certain expectations of proper decorum, where the grossest thing we might encounter is three-week old leftovers in the back of the fridge. I am definitely not paid enough to be made or even invited to become a prop for someone's parafilia.
45
What about the woman who weren’t in the work Place? Some of these woman came up to his hotel room for drinks. It’s not uncommon for men to make sexual advances towards women after hours, in a hotel with alcoholic involved. I mean seriously. When does this end?
1
Sad. His proclivities seem more humiliating for him than the women, still there's no excuse for his indecent behavior, which might be called super inappropriate but perhaps fall just short of out and out assault. He now needs to come clean and offer a public apology to his victims. Next stop...rehab, followed by a penance tour where he could show true remorse. Louis's appeal has always been his honest self analysis and willingness to expose his foibles and shortcomings. He's mined his personal life for laughs, now he needs to mine it for redemption and forgiveness. Obviously, he can never do anything like this ever again or he's finished, if he isn't already. I would hate to see that because I think he is still a huge talent. His flaws can now be an opportunity for Louis to come to terms with his demons and set some boundaries. I am willing to give him another chance under these conditions. Now, how about some coverage on Tariq Ramadan.
8
He does owe all women he acted against an apology, as well as all women who were ever offended by his act. But he doesn't get to go to rehab then receive reception. He needs to publicly apologize then slink off into oblivion, never to be heard from again. And he needs to take his manager with him. He needs to be a pariah to the comedy circuit, all of Hollywood, his friends and family and pretty much the rest of the world.
1
[ "they were holding onto each other, screaming and LAUGHING in shock,"]
If they were laughing , is it appropriate for me to laugh at the incident they described ? Because it seems unbelievable and hilarious .
misconduct ? probably . harassment ? No .
12
I think you missed an important bit there, "in shock." Laughter can arise out of hysteria, not only humor. It's our way of coping with the bizarre or unwanted, which is why people laugh at funerals sometimes.
17
But they could have walked out. They even had their coats on. They weren't feeble-minded or children.
2
Laughing out of shock, man. Out of shock. Ever uncomfortably laugh out of self-protection? We have to do it all.the.time.
5
It's hard to imagine Mr. CK would be such a cad. Just the other day, I saw his great performance in Woody Allen's "Blue Jasmine," in which his married character sweet-talks an engaged woman into throwing away her impending marriage for the sake of an aduterous fling with him. How could such a talented, convincing actor, one so capable of losing himself in -- becoming -- the role so completely, so successfully, be such a sleaze?
Well. somehow I'm reminded a Scarlett Johansson SNL line, playing a rapturous Olive Garden customer for a commercial: "Actually, I really looove Olive Garden. I won't hardly have to act at all," she tells the director.
8
LCK made me laugh out loud -- I'm a big fan. Agreed, some of his material is hyper-sexual, too intimate and very strange (to me anyway), but it's alright because I can change the channel when he gets too weird. It is not alright for him to act on his gross thoughts in real life-- and worse, to a professional subordinate. Shame on Louie. I wonder if some of that material was a cry for help? Maybe now he'll get it.
10
Please add hypocrisy to the list of transgressions. I have always found his self loathing brand of humor to be somewhat contrived, an attempt to demonize men and to exaggerate healthy sexuality, to broaden his popularity and marketability because he has no other option.
Louis C. K. has made plenty of hay appealing to points of view I have found personally offensive, thought often I am alone in this. His voice has been a voice of shaming, I for one am enjoying the fact that he is exposed as a person who can't actually manage himself, which is what I have always thought of him. A coward, and weak.
8
You who are without sin should cast the first stone.
Welcome to the Information Age. Do we really need to know about this? Many years ago I worked as a licensed massage therapist at an upscale Manhattan hotel. I had plenty of men and women come onto me in ways that were sleazy, friendly or drunk. I became very skilled at creating strong boundaries and removed myself from the situation when I had to. I later did consulting work, and had some very successful clients in the entertainment field. A few clients expected lots of male attention from me, and one did a bit of professsionsl sabotage when she didn't get it. These issues are not gender-specific. If you work in a field that is all about charisma, or where there are sensitive boundaries, get smarter and tougher. I think it is infantile to expect everyone to be kind and nice, then act like you have been wronged when someone like Louis CK turns out to be vulgar. Isn't it obvious?
21
I have always reacted that way too. Recently I recognized that not everyone has that strength I was able to summon in similar situations. How selfish of me to think that people should be required to do what I was able to do when certainly they should not. It's on the harrasser, not the recipient.
10
You act as if the only men who assert this problematic industry are men in the entertainment industry. Sexual predators are everywhere, in every industry - from Hollywood to something as mundane as the construction biz.
There is no comparison between uninvited aggressive acts towards women and the sage toward men. None. All of the guys bringing up these real or hypothetical situations are just displaying their misogyny on their sleeves. As a man, you have to understand that you don't get the treatment that women fought so hard for in the 60's and 70's. That's just the way it is in every facet of life. A female boss coming on to a male subordinate is not the same as when the roles are reversed. While the first is perhaps uncomfortable, the second is disgustingly unacceptable and never appropriate. The first needs to shrugged off while the second demands harsh punishment.