Catalans are very different from a Spanish people and have the right to be independent at any cost:
They do not know anything about siesta.
They are not passionate.
They do not eat jamon, paella, tapas, tortilla,..
They do not drink beer with their mates after work.
They hate soccer.
They do not speak Spanish.
They do not celebrate Christmas nor Holy Week.
Their territory was never occupied by the Romans.
They never mixed with the Moors.
They do not have their own traditional dancing, songs and costumes.
And finally, they do not speak loudly.
Yes, I was a bit sarcastic...
6
It seems so easy to resolve this crisis by offering Catalonia the same autonomy now enjoyed by the Basques. Instead the Spanish government seems determined to use force, which will obviously eventually lead to serious bloodshed. Doesn't anyone ever learn from past experience?
3
Even without a rich understanding of European or Spanish history, I can’t really foresee the Western world generating much enthusiasm or sympathy should Texas start behaving the same way, or Quintana Roo wanted out of Mexico. The scale of Catlan’s perceived oppression is not exactly a crisis of Rohingya proportions.
7
Look I know that I'm only a freshman in high school and my opinion doesn't really matter but I find it very interesting that people from all over the world have an opinion and ideas on the same topic. I think this is a new start and a new chapter for Catalonia. This new start might be scary since they are basically creating a new government but I think when the whole process is over with it will make Calalonians' lives way more easier and i hope they find peace and happiness in this difficult situation. Yesterday I actually presented my project about Spain and now I'm doing a current events paper and happened to pull up this article. I just thought that was pretty cool.
5
I am proud that the Parliament of Catalonia, democratically elected in 2015, acted on the mandate it was bestowed upon it by us Catalans. A clear independentist majority won that election (48% of the popular vote vs. the 39% of unionists, and the 13% of uncommitted parties but which also supported a self-determination referendum). That 48% is also more legitimate than Spain's ruling party, Partido Popular, which now seeks to exert direct rule over Catalonia, but which only got 8% of the popular vote in Catalonia and is a distant 5th party in Catalonia.
I anticipate difficult times ahead, as most western powers align themselves with the Spanish state, not on moral grounds, but for fear of the domino effect a Catalan Republic could create. As history shows, governments are blatantly absent when interventions to safeguard human rights are needed unless there are also economic interests at play. Anyone remembers Rwanda, Darfur, Cambodia or more recently Myanmar? If in the face of brutal genocide all the International community can do is utter vacuous words of disapproval of the use of violence and nothing more, what can we expect for Catalonia, where repression is far less tribal and therefore easier to ignore?
But just like I see the ominous road ahead, I also see a flourishing future for the Catalan Republic. We are a peaceful, welcoming and generous people and will work to rebuild bridges, including with Spain, which we don't hate despite what some may have others believe.
2
Spain's heavy-handed approach here is redolent of the lessons of history that are continually ignored. This is how England lost the American colonies, this is how the EU lost the UK, this is how the UK lost voters in the post-industrial northeast to the LEAVE vote, and eventually, given the very deep roots of this conflict between Spain and Catalonia (Catalonia was seeking autonomy back in the 1930s, got it, then saw it suspended by Franco until his death) and this is how Spain will lose Catalonia. And possibly how the EU stands a chance of losing the Czech Republic, Hungary, and Poland.
As a panelist on this weekend's "Dateline London" cautioned in a discussion of Catalonia re the economic impact, as we saw with BREXIT, the economic argument, surprisingly, isn't always enough to sway voters.
The ramifications for the EU re Catalonia, just as with the UK, are dangerous. Should the vote in December go for the nationalist party, and Catalonia eventually does separate from Spain and apply for membership, the EU would do itself no favors by refusing it entry, yet in doing so would be acknowledging the nationalism rising across Europe. The recent elections in Germany that handed Merkel a humiliation, far right Kurz winning the Austrian elections, the elections in the Czech Republic, all point to a revolt against huge centralized powers-somewhere else.
The EU and Spain are ignoring the lessons of history at their peril. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
3
If you want your own territory, you have to fight for it and defend it. It's going to take blood. Sorry, but that's the way the world works.
3
BTW -- the picture wasn't taken in front of the Parliament. That building is the Castell dels Tres Dragons (Castle of Three Dragons). Maybe it's all the same at this point...
1
The call for immediate elections indicate that Rajoy renounces to correct the usurpation of citizens' rights in Cataluña during the last 30 years.
For your information, the secessionists, for the past 30 years, have bombarded Catalans, with Independence, Independence, Independence. Preaching the exaltation of the Catalan homeland, lies about history, inequality between cultures and hatred for Spain, has been achieved through indoctrination in schools, control of public television/radio, institutional propaganda, plus the prohibition of the use of Spanish in public jobs. All these tantamount to the systematic violation of the rights of all Spaniards through the derision and humiliation by this fascist minority.
Spain has always had secessionists, everywhere. They have always sided with the extreme left who've wanted their turn at governance. This is why Bismarck said, "Spain has to be the strongest country in the world as it has tried to destroy itself for centuries but it is still here".
Like Bismark said, we aren't going to sit back if our politicians do not take the lead in dismantling the abusive advantages granted to these minority secessionists. We've beaten all of them, since 1469!
9
According to many pro-separatists commenters here, Franco is alive and well breaking havoc in Catalonia, while in the rest of Spain he has been dead for more that 40 years.
8
How is this different from the Confederate States declaring independence from the United States?
7
The Confederates took up arms. That hasn't happened in Catalonia yet.
The EU doesn't support it because they want their debt payments. You can bet your bottom dollar Catalunya is contributing heavily to that.
You really have to ask yourself if you have rights as a citizen within a country with a corrupt government. In the US, do I want 22% of my taxes to pay for Military adventures?
2
On the matter of sovereignty, all of Spain has to vote and not just a part of it (Cataluña).
8
As the late, great Tom Petty once sang, "Everybody's had to fight to be free". Spain fought to be free by suffering through Franco until he finally died, then by successfully establishing a constitutional democracy made up of semi-autonomous regions, all of which had the opportunity to negotiate the terms of their own semi-independence, with Catalonia already having obtained more independent institutions than most others.
There are way too many first nations all over the world (indigenous peoples) still waiting for some little slice of independence and dignity after centuries of genocide, racism, land theft, etc., and with cultures and languages that truly ARE unique. (Sorry Catalonia, chopping the vowels off the end of Spanish words does not exactly make your language, say, Euskera (Basque), which is in fact very unique compared to other European languages).
I suspect after the dust settles there will be far fewer Catalan Independence flags (the ones with the blue triangle and star) seen hanging from balconies, etc., not because there are no longer people wanting to display them, but because everyone else is sick of looking at them and they start getting torn down.
I'm from California and we have a word for people like Puigdemont and his crowd: Clueless.
P.S: Força Barça!!!!
6
1) Catalonia is not an oppressed entity. It’s a prosperous and free community. 2) It’s being forced into independence by a group of extremists promising Catalonians the world would receive the “free Catalonia” with open arms. That, among other things, was obviously a lie. 3) The central government is acting correctly in stopping this coup and calling for elections to see how ALL Catalonians feel about the experiment now that they’ve tested the independence waters.
14
What about the Kurds? Should we and Europe treat them as Catalonians, or is there a difference?
2
It's surprising that so many Americans here forget their own origin and the words of their own Declaration of Independence. There was no "legal" way to separate from Britain, nor has there ever been, to my knowledge, a provision for doing so in any constitution in any country. (Note to self: research Czechoslovakia)
The issues ARE complex, so please get all the information before making judgments. Examine whether accusations of Catalan corruption aren't a tad hypocritical or whether the stacked Supreme Court of Spain might not itself be unconstitutional. Any objective observer who followed the proceedings in the Catalan Parlement yesterday could not have helped noticing that most of the bombast and name-calling came from the opposition, particularly Fernández, head of the PP group, Rajoy's party. And knowing that the last time Catalonia declared its independence, the lawfully elected president Lluís Companys was chased into exile, kidnapped by the Nazis, turned over to the Franquist government, and summarily executed may help you understand some of what's behind the Catalan position.
1
FYI,
Lluís Companys declared independence during the Spanish Second Republic.
He staged a coup against a democratic system (just like Franco did a year later, and just like Puigdemont did yesterday).
Companys was not arrested and imprisoned by Franco. He was arrested and imprisoned by the democratic government of the Republic.
It's true that he later escaped and run away to France, where the Germans captured him and returned him to Franco, who ordered his execution.
But please remember that Companys first rebelled against the Spanish Republic, not against Franco's dictatorship.
9
Sure there wasn't a legal way for the North American colonies to separate from the English king.
Yet you did define what they were, colonies of a foreign kingdom. What foreign kingdom colonized Cataluña? When did that ever happen?
4
There is a huge difference between American Independence movement and Catalonia's. The 13 colonies were colonies and the slogan was "taxation without representation." Catalonia is not a colony, it's a region with full democratic representation in the Spanish parliament. Their slogan is simply "taxation."
3
Interesting photograph of the Catalan Parliament. Perhaps it would be more accurate to show this one:
https://ep01.epimg.net/elpais/imagenes/2017/10/27/inenglish/1509117264_6...
Half the seats are empty: The opposition is absent. This is not exactly an overwhelming and enthusiastic vote for independence of the Catalan people. Instead it is the vote of the parties representing a minority (significant, to be sure) of Catalans.
9
Brexit, Catalan, Trump, all the same fundamental underlying motivation. People sick and tired of out of touch central authorities running their lives.
1
Catalan separatism is part of the same malaise that has show infected other parts of the free world and of open societies. It's a rich society dreaming of new frontiers and of walls between them and others, we've seen this with Trump and with Brexit. Their preachers are often corrupt and inept leaders. I urge everyone here to get some facts about the party that leads separatism in Catalonia, the one the Catalonian president belongs to. It was called Convergencia until not long ago, and it was founded by Jordi Pujol, pull that thread and you will begin to understand the reasons why separatism has been promoted since 2012 by those who used to be the partners of the PP, the other corrupt party in Spain which now rules the country. Get the facts, and don't get fooled by separatist propaganda trying to make you think this is a civil rights movement.
12
Meanwhile the 33 congressmen and senators for the independentist ERC and PDeCAT parties in Madrid have clung to their seats and are still receiving their salaries. This is not very consistent with them belonging to a foreign country, is it? Shouldn't they go back to Barcelona?
8
No homage to Catalonia; the Spanish state is Sovereign.
9
I somehow doubt that freedom loving democratic socialists around the world will leave their homes and travel to Catalonia to defend Catalan's independence. This isn't Spain of the 1930s attempting to fight off fascism. Neither is it the Confederate States of America declaring an illegal secession to maintain the liberty to continue enslaving other human beings. But it is a real non-violent independence movement with substantive issues that need to be respected and non-violently addressed by Spain.
1
The October referendum wasn't a good test of the sense of the Catalans. But if they let the December elections go on and the vote is significantly for candidates supporting independence, the Catalans will have gained the moral high ground. But they probably should start getting together their guns because the Spanish Central government isn't going to let Catalunia go. And the Brussels hypocrites of the European Union believe in self-determination except when they don't.
2
If the secessionists were true believers of their cause, why did vote secretly? Obviously because they are trying to make it more tedious to bring them before a court of law. Trouble making chickens!
5
I'd say it was 'check' but not yet 'checkmate' for Rajoy in announcing regional elections in Catalonia for 21 December. But sadly, it's hard to see the young, who have been brainwashed about Catalonia's place in the world, changing their minds about independence.
4
The Catalan parliament behaved yesterday as the anti-system and communist radical party who leads the nationalist coalition ( the Assembly of the CUP), they do not believe in democracy. Can anybody believe the parliament took the decision with a half empty parliament? Such a transcendental and irreversible decision was taken by a minimum majority that in number of votes is not even 50%. Those supporters of the Republic welcome the power of the fanatism instead of democracy. It is a sad day ...But on Sunday the streets will be full of people of the other side, the side of people who want to be catalans and spaniards and have been humilliated and silenced by the nationalist leaders.
8
That last line, "Spanish occupiers leave Spain" is literally hysterical. Hysteria -- by some -- for independence has replaced reason and facts. There are no occupiers in Catalonia, there is no dictatorship, there isn't systemic oppression from the federal government. But fascism's embers have been reignited but by separatist political leaders who are messaging that being Catalán is superior to being Spanish. Remember the Balkan War.
13
Despite the fact that I share little of the mentality of the red states, living s I do in one of the bluest states, I would never think of secession from the rest of the country even if were possible. Divisions of the country into red and blue (which is a recent designation) exacerbates differences and creates mutual hostility never previously known. The sense of division is a despicable political stunt created by grandstanding politicians.
5
Do not be surprised that the coinage of the Blue and Red states is new. It is part of a world wide plan, where a few are playing monopoly with our humble lives. Look around you. Study recent events. The massive African refugee crisis, for example, who's caused it? What are its effects?
1
Spain, akin to former Imperial powers, has a long history of foreign and domestic strifes, including a bloody civil war in 1936-1939.
Catalonia's dream of becoming an independent nation brings to mind Karl Max quote 'history repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce.'
1
A lot of people say this is democracy at work - I say no it is not.
Only about 38% of Catalonians voted for independence (42% voted and 90% for) and were even encouraged to print their own ballots. The Catalan socialists are strongly for independence. Catalonia has a stronger economy but will not share their relative wealth with their brothers sisters in the rest of Spain.
This all flies in the face of both democracy and socialism. Spain never invaded Catalonia or outright annexed it either.
A new sovereign Catalonia with no currency, no trade agreements and no international recognition especially by the EU?!
Independence is negotiated - not unilaterally declared.
9
I will write it until I am blue in the face. Catalan culture is a myth. Catalonia is not much different from the rest of Spain as Boston is from Los Angeles. There might be some differences but not more than in any region of Europe. Please stop writing the Catalonia has a different culture. Is not true!
13
"Fueled by a distinct language and culture.."
Could this be supported by facts? Lot of people in Catalonia speak Spanish as well as Catalan, but I never experienced a distinct culture. I saw more differences in culture between Boston and New York, but would this fuel the need of independence?
14
I fully support the right of all people for self-determination. The 13 American colonies had that right, as all freedom loving people do.
1
The 13 colonies had the right to secede? Sure.
Just as I have the right to jump a red light because I have the right to self determination. As I have this right everybody else has to stop to allow me through! What happens to the rights of the majority who I expect will clap for me while I go around breaking more laws? Who cares?
3
How can a few inconsequential and ambiguous words, written almost 40 years ago, under oppressive pressure by ideologically driven people, who were under quite immature and false pretenses, the ruling party and now defunct, be more valuable than the freedom of the homogeneous Catalonian citizens.
A new concept of sovereignty!
Only the people possess real sovereignty no longer a king not even the politicians they serve at the pleasure of the voting citizens and must carry out their wishes!
2
There is no "homogeneous Catalan citizens."
We Catalans are not united on this issue. Most of us do not want independence, and are proud of our Constitution (that it was written 40 years ago is irrelevant; the American Constitution is much much older!)
Catalonia is a pluralistic society.
If the NY Times had shown a better picture of the Catalan Parliament, you could see that almost half the Parlament members had left because they did not want to participate in that illegal charade.
Of the 135 members, only 70 voted yesterday "yes" for independence.
How homogenous does that sound?
6
Those few and inconsequential words, the Spanish constitution, have brought about peace, order and widespread prosperity.
4
The principle of national self-determination was fundamental to the transition of the modern world from empires to democratic states. In accord with this principle, there re must be a legal and peaceful way for a nation to secede from a multinational state.
For those welcoming Madrid's suppression, let me ask: what was undemocratic about Catalonia's recent independence referendum and yesterday's vote to secede in its legislature?
If Catalan residents in favour of the status quo had organized to vote in the referendum, instead of widely abstaining, thus recognizing its legality, we might have a truer reflection of that nation's popular will. But there was nothing that I know of that prevented them from doing so. Instead, they refused to recognize its legality by abstaining, relying on Madrid to deem the vote illegal and suppress the move to independence by force. The constitutional clause that legalizes this repression is a holdover from the Franco era.
Wally,
You asked, "But there was nothing that I know of that prevented them from doing so."
Allow me to explain. There was something. We respect our Constitution, and the Constitutional Court had deemed the referendum illegal.
This has nothing to do with Franco. Spain is a democratic society, and most Spaniards, including most Catalans, are proud of our democratic laws, and we do the best we can to respect them.
We do not rely on "Madrid." We rely on a Constitution that 90% of Catalans voter for.
5
If there are around 200 languages in Europe, why not create 200 new countries? And why not proclaim as many declarations of independence as the number of cheeses and wines in Europe?
Actually, there are parts of Catalonia that want to become independent of Catalonia...
Many frustrations, a lot of manipulation and a single excuse. Neither the problem is Spain nor the solution is to separate. Everything would remain the same in an independent Catalonia: corruption, inequality, ...
9
Catalan independence has always been, if you will, a Quixotic goal, a romantic idea that is fundamentally impractical. The Catalan culture is a minority: only 35% of the population speaks Catalan as a first language, whereas 46% speaks Spanish. Spain has an army and an obligation to protect its citizens. Rajoy couldn't let Catalonia go even if he wanted to.
If Catalonia were independent, it would be a country of 7 million people in southern Europe, too small to control its economic and political destiny. It would be surrounded by EC countries, but would not be one of them (Europe will never accept a seccessionist region, it would bring chaos). The economic prospects would be terrible.
All of this is known by the separatist leaders. Their push for independence should not be confused with a real effort to create a new country. That would be suicide for Catalonia. And while there are a few mad idealists in the separatist coalition, the majority is rational. They understand this is political exercise, a way of mobilizing their supporters in order to have more power within Catalonia. This exercise in demagoguery dovetails perfectly with the interests of the monarchy and the conservative leadership in Madrid. They also "mobilize their base" through the conflict with Catalonia.
The people of Catalonia are being led into the abyss by populists on both sides. The international community should not choose sides. Pressure them both to end the madness and negotiate.
9
I'm going to get off the point, but...
The pro-independence movements all over the world are fine and dandy. But we all have a much bigger problem to address: extinction.
There is a mass extinction taking place all over the world, and we're doing precious little to halt it and reverse its progress. Our present-day social organization might not last more than a few decades more, and then nobody will care about countries anymore, because they won't exist (except on paper).
So, there are two options: tell everybody to stop fighting for independence and just put up with the 20 or 30 years that their ruling country has left; or, let all these different people have their independence just for asking for it and let them enjoy their new country for those 20 or 30 years.
In the meantime, with that distraction out of the way, we can all focus on what we need to do to avoid extinction.
1
"The final tally was 70 in favor, 10 against, and two blank votes." Yes, and 65 who didn't vote at all, they had left the chamber. The article is exceedingly one sided. The referendum was not a legal one. It is estimated that turnout was only about fifty percent and those who favored staying abstained. It also ignores the earlier elections that showed a majority in favor of staying. And there is no mention of the fact that a large part of the population are ethnic Spanish and fear oppression by the Catalan separatists (rather like the Catholics in Northern Ireland)
6
I find it interesting that many left of center European news outlets, such as the Guardian and Channel 4 News in the UK, are violently opposed to Brexit - which had a proper referendum, but are supporting the secession of Catalonia from Spain, when the referendum there was a farce. Why is independence of the UK from the EU bad, and yet a year later, the independence of Catalonia from Spain is good? Whatever ones thinks of the merits or otherwise of Brexit, nobody has claimed the referendum was not carried out properly and in good order.
8
The Catalan independence movement is rooted in xenophobia. With the help of the local school system and constant propaganda, Catalan separatists have convinced themselves that they are innately superior to other Spaniards. I lived in Barcelona for years, and as a foreigner "ripe for conversion to the cause", I had to listen to the same sort of comments that I would hear from racists in the USA about minorities, but instead we directed toward Spain and Spaniards. Spain is a modern democracy with plenty of faults (mainly political corruption), but it doesn't deserve the treatment it's receiving from Catalan separatists.
10
Excellent comment.
2
I was in Barcelona during the Oct 1 referendum, and it was quite obvious that mostly only the separatists went to the polls. It was nonetheless very civilized and any violence overblown. The most obvious expression, outside the street protest gatherings, was between 10 and 10:15 pm every night when people banged on pots and pans. Such a lovely city, I hope that the civility holds.
1
The referendum is a poor tool for solving these kinds of issues. It is binary and excludes the possibility that an intermediate solution based on compromise might be the most popular option if put to voters. Referendums might make sense after a violent conflict but not so much in this situation. The Catalan nationalists and Partido Popular both harvest votes from their respective constituencies based on maximalist positions. They can do this because they are both political movements that are overrepresented due to the overweighting of rural areas in the Spanish and Catalan electoral systems. If the problems can be addressed on various tracks by newly elected legislators they could address, 1) constitutional reforms, and 2) short term policy recommendations. The role of a referendum both in the rest of Spain and Catalonia would be to ratify agreements reached by people negotiating in good faith. The negotiators would face huge obstacles in sitting at the table with political opponents, but any resulting agreements would have a legitimacy that unilateral impositions (independence, no reform) respectively lack. Politics, after all, is the art of the possible.
2
English speakers, being mostly products of colonialism, simply cannot comprehend how unifying a force language can be. In places like India it transcends class, caste, and even religion. In 1956 when Prime Minister Nehru tried to impose Hindi on everybody as the national language people immolated themselves in the South. The government panicked and decided to carve out state boundaries based on language. The 8th Schedule of the Indian Constitution lists 22 languages with equal status. Nothing else would have worked.
For much of the world, language is culture. And culture as we know is everything.
2
Perhaps a small group of the EU leaders needs so show some courage and convene a negotiation between both sides? The EU cannot manage a country with every new postal code becoming its own country. One of the problems in the EU and why their system is so weak is that every single unit must agree to absolutely everything. Remember when the EU-Canada treaty was being held up while S. Belgium objected? Catalonia cannot become its own country anymore than Berkeley, CA can. The nice people standing out in front of the Catalonian Parliament are not thinking more than 20 minutes beyond today.
Some need new batteries for their calculators. (And I'm sure most would have voted for Bernie Sanders, too.)
1
A Republic fights to be born? Catalonia has never been a Republic, it has been part of the Reign of Aragon first, and Spain soon after, since the early middle ages. Catalans fought as Spaniards to add new territories to the crown. It's just one more region of many others, with full autonomy and part of a country with one of the most modern and progressive constitutions in the world. A call for full indepence is the wrong solution for the real reason, to keep more of the money generated, and it's just a clever way to force the central government into the bargaining table to accomplish it. Catalonia cannot survive in the long run as a full independent "Republic".
5
Catalunya has played the long-suffering wife trapped in a controlling, loveless and unwanted marriage with Spain since the 70's. But, she has finally summoned the courage and conviction necessary to extricate herself from the oppressive relationship.
Spain is attempting to keep her trapped in the marriage despite her public declaration of divorce - just as any controlling, overbearing husband would.
It's Catalunya's inalienable right to be free and independent if she no longer chooses to be in the relationship and Spain can't force her to stay against her will. Spain doesn't own her.
And Catalonia does not own Tarragona (the Catalan city where I am from).
Most people from Tarragona want to stay in Spain.
What do you suggest we do about that?
Can Girona and Lleida become independent, and Barcelona and Tarragona stay in Spain?
8
Just imagine if, say, Idaho or Texas decided to go ahead with a referendum that had been ruled unconstitutional by every court in the land; "won" the vote of only 40% of the electoral census; and concluded that this 40% gave them a mandate to secede. And then their state legislature voted to actually do so--but voted in secret. This is democracy at work?
The Catalan independece movement complains about Spain´s government undermining democracy. But they themselves have violated many of their own laws--and claim a mandate for secession with only 40% of the population supporting them. A farce, in my opinion.
With the obvious exception of the terrible police brutality of Oct. 1, the Spanish state´s reaction is only logical, and clearly justified in the Spanish Constitution.
5
With invocation of the article 155 of the Spanish constitution on Catalonia the Catalan independence issue may be postponed for now but cannot be sidelined for ever. For, the way developments are taking place post-Brexit not Spain only but the entire Europe is to be prepared to revisit the old forgotten issues of nationhood, sovereigny, federalism, and development.
6
As I watched the many young people excitedly cheering Catalan independence, I found myself thinking that many of them likely are caught up in the emotion of it without the life experience to calmly consider whether this is truly good for their region. Catalonia has no army. While it has a strong economy within Spain, does it really have the economic might to survive alone on the world stage? How intertwined with Spain is its economy? How would that change with true independence? How would it relate to the EU, which is unlike to simply accept it as a member? Already some large banks & businesses have moved their headquarters out of Catalonia. As a separate country, it would need border control, a currency, treaties, trading partners...
25
You're describing all the same reasons people give for staying in dysfunctional relationships. There comes a point when the painful process of uncoupling is preferable to the the misery of remaining. Catalunya has democratically reached that point and, as in any messy divorce, there will be difficulties, but sometimes you just have to pay whatever price is required to extricate yourself and regain your independence.
1
Freedom and independence for Catalonia and Kurdistan, should be the desire of all freedom loving people, especially progressives and liberals.
11
Comparing the Kurdish strive with Catalonia is preposterous and indecent. Catalonia is already a place with a greater degree of freedom than the US. It is a rich region, with a booming economy inside the EU. Catalans are free to speak their language, wich is the compulsory language at school and on state owned media (even if more than 50% of the population speak Spanish at home). Catalan separatism, is a xenophobic and supremacist movement, and at its peak, it represents less than 50% of the population if you look at the popular vote. Kurdish separatism is a matter of survival. Progressive people can't support a corrupt and supremacist movement, go and find out about Jordi Pujol, the founder of the party the Catalan premier belongs to.
5
Comparing the situation in Catalonia with that in Kurdistan is simply insulting for all Kurds.
2
Catalonia is not oppressed in any way, form or shape.
5
Complete double standards at work here. If this were Tibet or Hong Kong, you'd all be behind secession.
16
First fail is puting Tibet and Hong Kong in the same league.
Second obviously is relating these examples to Catalonia.
No unfair double standards at work here, just very different situations and problematics.
3
But, Emkay, this isn't Tibet or Hong Kong. It's a region of a large nation whose government is fair and just. It's a region where there is no lack of democratic freedoms; where there is no repression. It's a region where the majority does not want to be separated from the mother country.
So what do you mean "double standards?"
4
That’s exactly the point. This is not Tibet nor Hong Kong.
1
Europe's sickness:
"Those people over there are not like us. I hate them."
8
Much of the world’s current problem is a belief that otherness whether near to home or abroad is suspect, dangerous and a threat to culture and security. Europe is not alone in facing this and to consider it so is to ignore or overlook the nationalism that is behind the current US policy that is rewriting decades of engagement. Brexit and the rise of nation state narrow nationalism are symptoms of this. In the case of Eastern Europe, many of those states have only a recent history of democracy. In the case of Brexit and Trumpism, there is a clear and concerted plan at work based on misrepresentation of facts which preyed on the minds of those who have fears and stoked them into a reaction that will favour only those who are in Power.
2
Same sickness on this side, too, Ed. The hate of the other prevails always.
3
Independance is not about making Catalonians freer, that’s for sure. Independence means people can’t get out of Catalonia, work or live anywhere else in the EU. It’s stupid but that is what the Catalonian elite wants for their people.
22
So, you're saying that if Catalonia manages to defend its independence and consolidate its position, even if every single country in the world turns its back on it, then Spain will strip everybody in Catalonia of their Spanish citizenship and take away their Spanish passports and ID cards? Even the people who are against independence? How would that work, exactly?
If California declares its independence the United States would not let it happen, so why is it any different for Catalonia? Look back to the Civil War — it’s not like the Union let the states secede...
20
If California ever got so riled up that it would start calling for its independence, the US would talk with the Californians, listen to their grievances and work out solutions long before things came to a head. The Spanish government has done the opposite since the early 2000s, and has increasingly added gasoline and oxygen to the fire as time has gone on. Every time the fire subsided in Catalonia, some pro-union politician, judge or tribunal found a way to fan the flames.
The British didn't let the American colonies secede either, but yet they did. How? Due to the support of the French navy and Yankee industry. The South was not able to secede because they couldn't get the support of the British and didn't have an industrial base. The difference between the two is the means for the fight not the morals behind the fight.
Why did the US want independence? Because they didn't like increased taxes. No taxation without representation. All the other fancy moral justifications came later.
I guess that now America is an imperial power it supports other imperial powers in squashing small regions, like Spain squashing Catalonia. Now everything is different. People with aspirations for freedom of expression in other parts of the world should just shut up.
America doesn't allow statehood for Puerto Rico, runs the place like a colony, and doesn't bother to fix storm damaged infrastructure - because the people of that island have no vote.
The majority of commenters here need to look in the mirror when they deny others their wish for independence.
Look back further to the American Revolution.
I am just very frustrated by the lack of perspective of many comments. It is like Spanish has been always fair to catalans and now catalans are misbehaving. I guess I could claim that African Americans are enjoying actual equality as well as women or Latinos in the US and happily claim that these struggles are part of the past, not real today.
Well, I am Catalan. I grew up in a bilingual system, learning Catalan and Spanish. I loved reading Cervantes and Prat de la Riba. Actually, I feel more comfortable reading and writing in Spanish than Catalan even if I feel more comfortable speaking catalan. And for 10 years, this has been my sin: not being Spanish enough because I have a double identity that happily coexisted in me for more than 30 years. And, of course claim for a review of the Current Fiscal solidarity system and "cafe para todos" system.
Readers, this is not new. This has been latent since the civil war. We never talked about that, we reached a political consensus, and now it is our moment to reach a Social Consensus that respond to the reality that Spain is, a real federation or even a confereration. And also, why not review the solidarity system. If I am not fully Spanihs, why I should fully contribute to it? Seriously, people doesn't see this? I guess it is like when people visit the US and claims that there is not racism because there is not Apartheid. You would laugh at it.
Catalan is being the Motor of Spain again. Wait and see.
10
Who among us Americans are "fully" American, Carla? And how would our government like that as a reason for not supporting our State?
Your argument that you shouldn't contribute to Spain holds no water. Or do you also believe that, as you are not fully Catalan, you shouldn't contribute to Catalonia either?
Good for Catalonia being the "Motor" of Spain. New York is the Motor of the U.S. And so what?
4
Little correction: there is no "Social Consensus" (capital letters as per your post) in Catalonia. Just on one side a more unified and loud mouthed front with very clear disregard (being diplomatic here..)to the 1978 spanish constitution.
And I fail to understand the motivations behind all the predictable incoming disaster.
Is it about cultural identity?
In which case it must be very fragile if catalunians feel it is threatened by being a (already pretty darn autonomous) region of Spain.
Or is it as you seem to imply about not paying for the poorer regions of Spain?
In which case all this seems pretty hypocrite and in my opinion shows a very deep misunderstanding of democratic and european ideals.
4
Talk for yourself, Carla.
I'm fully Catalan and fully Spanish.
I have exactly the same rights as any other citizen in Spain (in Granada, Bilbao or Caceres).
And I pay the same taxes I would pay if I lived in Madrid or Sevilla, since individuals are taxed based on income, not based on the region where one lives.
I'm happy with wealthier people contributing more. That is was progressive taxation is about.
4
What responsible government would be complicit in its own demise? Catalonia's regional government is blatantly violating the Constitution of 1978 and TWO Constitutional Court rulings. Even a liberal-democratic state has a right to defend itself and enforce its laws - that's why JFK could send National Guard troops into Birmingham to enforce SC rulings and integrate schools, and why Madrid can send Civil Guard troops into Barcelona to prevent a secession declared illegal by the Constitutional Court.
'Democracy' without its handmaiden - the Rule of Law - is anarchy. Two Catalans drafted the Spanish Constitution of 1978, which over 90% of Catalans approved in plebiscite. That Constitution declares in Sec. 2 the indissoluble nature of the Spanish State. The same section grants the right to regional autonomy, and under Catalonia's autonomy statute the requirement for Constitutional changes to the regional government is a 2/3 majority.
Catalonia violated two Constitutional Court rulings, as well as its own autonomy statute, in producing this referendum. Its Orwellian to call this illegal farce a democratic expression of the people's right to self-determination. Call it what it is: Parochialism! A tribal minority arrogated the right to determine the future of the Spanish Constitution and the Spanish state, disenfranchising the vast majority of Spaniards.
34
Which voice should be louder, that of the people of Catalunya or that of the Spanish Constitution? The free will of the people of Catalunya will prevail over the oppressive, controlling desires of Spain. No document can make freedom illegal.
Think about desegregation in the South.
Which voice should have been louder, that of the people of the South or that of the American Constitution?
Democratic laws are often above the will of the people.
I am Catalan, and I feel safe in a country that respects and applies its Constitution, the Constitution that my parents voted for (I was too young to vote).
2
Dear friends of the Catalan minority rooting for independence!
Please stop waving those banners "Help Catalonia - Save Europe".
How can't you grasp that waving such an inconsistent and contradictory message can be only explained by an incredible amount of narcissism and vanity?
How dare you invoke Europe, whose institutions, citizens and VALUES helped you and all Spain to quickly make up 40 years ago?
Narcissism and vanity, if not leading to tragedy, are eventually ridiculous.
17
The Spanish constitution is a sham written under the gaze of Franco's proteges.
Catalan independence movement is a model of peaceful resistance to oppression. Not surprisingly, capital - from Trump to the Times, WSJ and Fox - is on the (losing) side of the oppressor.
8
The two Catalan authors (of the seven) who wrote the Spanish Constitution were 1) a member of the Catalan left and 2) a representative of the Catalan nationalist right. The debates in the Spanish Congress, democratically elected in 1977, and the wider society were transparent and included many diverse viewpoints. In 1978 the political leaders were struggling with many left over issues from the Franco dictatorship, but they were also keenly aware that no agreement was possible unless they worked with political opponents. Today's Catalan nationalists do not try to work with their opponents. They ignore half the Catalan population on a host of existential questions, they accuse their opponents of being against the people, and they euphemistically call for dialogue when they are just seeking to impose their sectarian positions. Making demands is easy. Reaching difficult agreements takes talent.
2
Does that make the German Constitution that the Spanish one was modeled on a sham as well? Also, what about the two Catalans who played a major part in writing it and helped negotiate some of the most autonomy for any region in Europe?
2
Catalán independence movement is anything but peaceful. Starting with early indoctrination, following the public media ruling as North Korean broadcast. Forcing business owners to write only in Catalan under penalty. Calling fascists to anyone who does not think like them. Telling the Catalan that Spain is still ruled by Franco 40 years later.
Painting the headquarters of any non independentist political party. Calling to boicot non Catalan products. Threatening the parents of the 1st opposition party leader, making signals in their home and bussines.
Making apps to easily denounce shops non Catalan speakers.
Explaining everyone they are oppressed by Spanish central government. ???
Yes they still do not kill people in the street (they already did it in the past). But peaceful?
6
A brilliant op-ed piece by Michael Goldfarb in this edition of the NYT on what constitutes a nation anymore in the 21st century. I would argue that the concept of nations, created in opposition to the excesses of the religious powers in Europe in the middle ages, is slowly disintegrating as a result of economic globalization first, and for not being needed anymore against the religious violence second. Malraux said "the 21st century will be religious, or will not be". The op-ed piece addresses the real question: "will the 21st century be nationalistic, or will not be".
Adding a link with my opinion on the subject, placed into the larger historical context of the desacralization of the religious myths, and one can I think legitimately argue that nations are to the 21st century what religions were in the middle ages, at least when pertaining to Europe and the Western civilization
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/globalization-surge-extremism-slow-disint...
3
So, luc faucheux. Do you recommend each to his own as the best way to go?
First of all, I want to make it clear that I am not picking sides here, I am just pointing out that the concept of what is a nation, and how does sovereignty can be defined or exercised in a global economy, have been dramatically challenged over the past few years (brexit, America first, Catalonia,..) and will be, because this is a logical long term trend. The question is what quid pro quo is a group willing to accept (social contract if you want) in order to preserve what this group believes to be important to them (social stability, language, ethnicity, religion,...). This is why serfs were willing to accept being under lords, this is why religions got to be so powerful up util the reformation and the thirty year war, and why nations were so powerful up until WWII and the Nuremberg trials. The question is:"to which organization are a group of individuals willing to relinquish the monopoly of violence over them?" and to what benefit. Given the lack of existential threat, the benefits of a global economy, and the acute polarization of local interests through local media, it is becoming harder and harder to justify that a nation is needed as it was in the past, just because "people accepted the constitution at some point". People change and things change, and I am trying to explain those changes through a logical framework. Europe by and large gave up on religions because of the wars it created, it might have to give up on nations also.
1
I find it sad so many are just totally against Catalonia and its government, without suggesting that a sensible and democratic way would be for the Spanish Government to sanction a legal referendum, which is within their power WITHOUT changing the Constitution, and to undertake to do all in their power to effect a change in the Constitution in the event of a YES vote - such a change would need to be put apparently to all the peoples of Spain in a referendum.
Meanwhile Americans might be interested to know what the reactions were in Britian in 1776 around the 4th July, to the American UDI. As a Scot I'm a little sad about the comment from the Scots Magazine, ah well, it wasnae me.
https://blog.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/2017/07/04/british-reaction-t...
4
You are letting your opinions get in the way of your facts. In fact there would need to be a constitutional amendment to allow an automomous region to secede. If you think I am wrong please explain the legal means the Spanish government has to allow such a referendum. I believe you cannot.
Spain lost Catalonia on October 1 when it sent in riot police to punch, kick, strike with batons, and shoot peaceful crowds of people.
Spain lost all moral legitimacy over Catalonia at that moment, and deserves the furious fight it is getting. As we learned in 1776, declarations of independence are always universal...
10
The police was sent in by a judge. The police went to pick up the ballot boxes in the schools. The police were doing their jobs. Those protesting at the gates of the schools weren't peaceful, they were blocking the police, preventing them from doing their jobs.
2
Never mind that this has NEVER happened in the past 40 years -yet people like you use this ONE TIME mistake to justify this obvious coup.
1
If Spain deserves the furious fight it is getting, why did Puidgemont accept the idea of regional elections on Thursday morning only to authorize the independence vote Thursday evening? The hangups, according to the reports close to the Basque president who mediated, was immunity. Article 155 would have been called off but the Spanish president can not tell the independent prosecutors and judges what to do as a political order. Puidgemont chose martyrdom rather than own a share of the peaceful resolution of the crisis.
In the end, 70 out of 135 members of the Catalan parliament voted for independence. That seems like a very narrow majority for a major political fracturing, especially since the last parliamentary election was also very close.
8
It never ceases to amaze me that every measure voted for or otherwise supported by large numbers of ordinary people is called:
1. An exercise in GRASSROOTS DEMOCRACY by those who agree with said measure.
2. An exercise in POPULISM by those who don't.
6
Democracy is about so much more than 'majority wins'. Its predicated on adherence to rule of law and the maintenance of democratic institutions. Those govern whether a region can have an independence referendum.
You can participate in a poll online (or, apparently, in Catalonia), but that is not an expression of democracy - that is a statistical sampling. 90% of 43% voted for independence; that's 39% of Catalans. What percentage of all Spaniards voted to void their Constitution? 2-3%?
“The idea that somehow any decision reached anytime by majority rule is necessarily ‘democratic’ is a perversion of the term... This isn’t democracy; it is Russian roulette for republics”
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/05/world/americas/...
10
You missed my point which is that a lot of people would find the same chain of events to be a legitimate expression of democracy if these events were situated in an *appropriate* setting like Tibet, Hong Kong or Kurdistan.
BTW as statistical samples go, 43 per cent is enormous. It eliminates any conceivable sampling bias. Also simple arithmetic should show you that if 90 per cent of 43 per cent voted for independence then only 1 of 5 or remaining Catalans would need to vote the same way for the motion to be carried by a majority of registered Catalan voters.
As for the YES vote being 2 to 3 per cent of the Spanish voting population, why is that even relevant? Would you have a billion Chinese participate in a hypothetical Tibetan independence referendum?
1
As much as I love Barcelona and Catalonia their quixotic quest for independence is a tragic error. The legal arguments aside, a divorce from their Spanish brethren is an unnecessary, painful and even puerile rejection of all they have in common, in favor of a what? ... a smaller, less significant union called Catalonia. For what? A few Euro? And where does this endless division end? After having split from Spain, why not then separate Barcelona from the rest of the region, declare it a city state, and make the surrounding countryside/small towns a tiny, independent Catalonia. After all, Barcelona earns the vast majority revenue in the region; why should they share this money with smaller, less significant towns? Catalonia's conceit is that they only need themselves to succeed and thrive. However, they don't consider the existential problems associated with the tribalism they espouse and despite being one of the greatest centers of intellect in the would, their hubris has blinded them to the lessons of history. For their own good, proud, bright and prosperous Catalonia, should remain part of Spain.
24
What astonishes me is the naivete continually on display from the Team Barcelona cheerleaders, where they hold up all these past examples of successful secessions, not caring to also mention that each and every one of those secessions involved bloody wars of several years duration. It is a curious conceit of this generation, that they can get whatever they deem to be noble and true simply through their innate moral rectitude alone. When the real revolution comes, you will all fight, and everyone on both sides will dirty their hands with atrocities. It will not be inspiring.
No surprise that most EOCD governments support Spain - they're holding it all together by massive force and can't possibly countenance a challenge to their power. Doesn't matter what regular people want - folks in charge want to stay in charge, whatever the fallout.
7
Amazing! Not a single comment here that is favorable to secession. Surely many of the same people would have said that if Scotland or Quebec voted to secede, they should be permitted to do so peacefully--no matter what the ratified constitution (the UK doesn't have one!) might say.
Here's an opinion for you: If someone entitled to vote chooses not to vote in an election (for instance, she didn't like either Clinton or Trump) then it doesn't matter what she "thinks," if anything. A majority voted for secession. Those who didn't vote can move to Spain or Timbuktu.
The EU politicians who are so frightened of secession in their own countries should be ashamed. Would any part of the US vote to secede? No. Would any part of Germany vote to secede? No. A country run in such a way that a region would vote to secede is badly run. Check out Russia and China.
11
I agree. The Catalonian government's naive aspirations to independence conceal a system of poor government in the Kingdom of Spain which induce the Catalans to embrace a political choice of dubious wisdom. Even the garrulous Corsicans have yet to bid adieu to France despite the many cultural and geographical divides which separate this insular island from mainland France.
Charon, Maybe...
www.californianational.party
2
Erm, looks like someone needs a history lesson. A part of the US DID vote to secede. By the time that issue was settled, 700,000 Americans were dead - about 1 out of every 50 persons alive at the time. Is that what you're looking forward to in Catalonia?
14
"...which the remaining [Catalan] lawmakers held via secret ballot, aware that declaring independence from Spain could risk arrest."
How strong is their commitment to independence if they won't even vote for it openly?
9
John Hancock allegedly said he wrote his name so large on the Declaration to make it easier for King George to read.
5
There is something I truly don't understand about the Catalan independence movement, and honestly, most articles I've read these days haven't really clarified the issue. What, exactly, is the oppression Catalonians want freedom from? I'm not saying this in any sarcastic manner, I am legitimately asking.
Catalonia, with a couple of breaks of very few years, has been part of Spain since the 15th century. Even in the great-grandparents of the current oldest living people, there is no real memory of being an independent nation. They were treated horrifically under Franco, true, but as he was a fascist dictator, many groups were treated horribly under Franco. After his death, a measure of Catalonian autonomy was restored, the language was revived, the culture was generally respected once again.
I was in Barcelona (one of many times for work) just last year. Catalans can freely fly their flag, speak their language, and in fact, teach most school subjects in their language, neglecting the official language of the country, Spanish. They are the most prosperous region in Spain, and have one of the highest quality of life indexes in Europe. They have one of the highest degrees of autonomy for a state-controlled region, and now this movement seems to have led to autonomy being taken away from them.
So when I see Catalan protestors crying that this independence movement will finally have them free of oppression, I am always confused about what they perceive their oppression to be.
41
Hello Joanna, I appreciate your legitimate and honest curiosity. For full disclosure, I'm a life-long independentist. I don't much like the term oppression because it elicits thoughts of genocide and destruction, which are nowhere to be found in Catalonia today. But there is certainly a sense of unjust treatment from Mariano Rajoy's Popular Party.
Catalonia does not have control over its taxes. The central government collects all taxes and redistributes a small portion back to Catalonia. This is in contrast with the Basque Country, which has full autonomy over its tax collection. Catalans have always perceived this as discriminatory and all attempts to achieve a status similar to that of the Basque Country have failed.
The second argument has to do with the overturn of the Catalan statute (sort of our constitution). Following the legal procedures stated in the Spanish constitution, the Catalan statute was approved by the Catalan Parliament in 2006, then by the Spanish Parliament, and then by referendum in Catalonia. After it came into effect, the Partido Popular (the opposition party in Spain at that time) appealed to the Spanish supreme court and had the Catalan statute mostly overturned. Many of the articles that the PP challenged are identical in wording to articles found in other Spanish statues (like the Andalusian one), but only the Catalan statute was repealed.
There are additional grievances, but I'm out of characters. Let me know if you'd like me to go on.
8
They are not oppressed but their politicians tell them that they are. That they are victims and Spain oppresses them,or the PP, or the lazy people of the south. These politicians are very corrupt.
7
The Catalan government does not receive a small amount of revenue back from Spain. It does not have the tax-collecting role of the Basque Country because in the early 1980s the Catalan nationalist president refused that offer from Madrid. Jordi Pujol (1980-2003) believed that the people hated tax collectors and his party could nurse anti-Spanish grievances if you let the Spanish government continue in that role. Likewise, by participating in the general tax system, Catalonia was taxed less at the time. This was before the expansion of the welfare state under the Spanish socialists and now Spain is a decidedly more expensive operation. The issue of a fiscal balance is due to the relative wealth of Catalonia. The Spanish tax system is largely a progressive individual tax on income and wealth. As in Toronto or San Francisco, taxpayers pay more to the national government than they receive in spending due to higher incomes. This amount has been grossly exaggerated, labeled plundering in the nationalist propaganda, and yet other regions such as Madrid have worse balances.
2
Seems most of the comments here are of one mindset, that Catalonian independence is illegal, period. If so, why support Tibet? The constitution of communist China says Tibetan independence is illegal (for that matter, so are Xinjiang, Inner Mongolian, Taiwan and Hong Kong independence movements). That would inadvertently force wayward regions to go the American way - armed rebellion. That is not good.
8
Bad example. China annexed Tibet in 1950 and has been running a totalitarian repression since then.
10
China's treatment of Tibet is vastly worse than Spain's treatment of Catalonia. Independence movements are valid if the grievances are severe enough.
1
China is an authoritarian dictatorship which represses Tibet's culture and doesn't give it's people a real vote in national affairs. Catalan culture thrives and dominated Catalonia, which has full representation in the national parliament. Spain is a fully democratic country with a vibrant free press and many political parties. There is simply no comparison.
3
Spanish Civil War never got resolved. It was brutally ended by Fascists.
It resumes in earnest.
4
The Spanish Civil War encompassed all of Spain, not just one region, and was fought between the left and the right with Catalan autonomy being a side issue. In the present situation, the left wing Socialist Party (PSOE), as well as every other major political party in Spain, is fully on board with the conservative parties on the issue of Catalan separatism.
1
How hypocritical so many Westerners and their governments are. They love to support secessionist movements in the Muslim world but quickly balk at this happening on their own turf and resort to force and emergency powers.
12
I will not deny hypocrisy on the part of Westerners in some matters, but you can be for one secession and against another for legitimate reasons.
In the biggest secession dispute currently happening in Muslim nations, with Kurdistan, it is extremely understandable why a group that lives in countries that systematically oppress them, and in the last century have had so many genocides committed against them that it is hard to even keep track of how many times it’s happened would want their own nation. Especially when the countries they live in, for the most part, refuse to even acknowledge their former acts of genocide, and have governments continue to treat the Kurdish population with hostility.
Also, I think many people are not supportive of Catalan independence because the way they went about it was as though to purposely provoke hostility and conflict. Is there any sane person in the world who thinks a part of a country can hold an unconstitutional unilateral referendum, without getting the support of any international governmental bodies, have 40% of the population vote and take that as a mandate to declare its own independence? Then twice refuse to respond to the central government when they ask if the declaration is formal or not? Let’s be real, no country in the world would listen to such a hastily slapped together, little attended, illegal referendum - illegal, by the way, according to the constitution Catalonians themselves ratified a few decades ago.
9
Am I the only one who was struck with the question, "Where was Napoleon raised?". Turns everyone's observations upside down.
1
I really expect more from the NYT in the language used to describe the plight of the Catalan people. The "Rebellious Catalan region"? Really? If self-determination as verified by 90% of voters is considered rebellious, then we need to look deeply at our sense of democracy and the heavy handed use of force by Madrid to control a region's will. VISCA CATALUNYA!
13
Didn't only forty percent vote? It may have been verified by 90% of those that VOTED, but what about the other 60% who didn't vote? At least have 50% at a minimum vote before acting on such an enormous decision as to rip apart Spain.
12
The European constitution was approved by referendum in Spain in 2005 with only a 42% turnout (slightly less than the self-determination referendum of Oct 1), and with a smaller margin: 77% yes vs. 90% yes in the self-determination referendum. If you take issue with the Catalan referendum you surely should contest the European constitution. Or Donald Trump's presidency: 26.3% of eligible voters for Trump, vs. 26.5% for Clinton, and 45% no-shows (turnout was just over 55%). In democracy, only the votes cast count, it's as simple as that.
5
Not really, that percentage represents the votes that were counted. Another 700,000 plus votes, deposited by Catalans, were confiscated by the Guardia Civil. The actual turn out was close to 59%, taking that into account. They could only count the votes that were saved by the people. Hundreds of thousands of ballots had been confiscated in the previous weeks, along with the arrest of dozens of elected officials. Noting democratic about this behavior. More in line with what you see in Latin American dictatorships. It's the same die hard mentality.
1
Spain is not a real democracy, all of the institutions have been taken over by corruption and there is no independent judiciary (ranking below China, Saudi Arabia or Kenya). The rules are rigged by a corrupt mafia style party (Partido Popular) that think they are above the law. Corrupt and inept politicians do
not want the system to change although it's rotten. People want to build a better future and they have the right to do so in which ever way they choose to. They wanted to VOTE to decide this future and this was called "illegal". Catalonia is a NATION with a long history and it has survived oppression of every kind to recover it's Independence, 300 years after it was lost. The Catalan government has tried over the last 10 years to redefine its place within Spain, but this has been BLOCKED in every way. The Independence movement is trying to build a nation with the Republican ideals of fraternity, equality and freedom; a just and fair Republic at the service of its citizens, not the corrupt Elites led by the monarchy. The Catalan parliament, with an absolute MAJORITY chosen in an election in 2015 for the purpose of building a Republic, has followed the law of the Referendum that was done Oct 1, which was won.
8
Not sure where you're getting your news, but every study by a mainstream organization (Freedom House, the Economist, OECD) shows Spain's democratic institutions to be on par with the other EU countries like France and Germany. Please stop making up data.
2
How true! Spain and primarily the current Partido Popular (PP) Government are extremely corrupt with dozens of cabinet members and others in high positions are under investigation or already indicted. Please check the Gurtel case, Rodrigo Rato, Ana Matos who was forced to resign. Most notorious is the case of the firmer treasurer of the PP Mr. Barcenas and even the royal family — princess Christina’s husband is implicated and was found guilty in a nasty case of money laundering and diverting the Noos foundation funds to his own pockets. And indeed we have had in Catalonia some cases of corruption too— how could we not since we have been part of Spain for so long? The Pujol case and the « Palau » case have been among the most damaging but we do hope to eradicate such abuses of power if we are able to build the country we chose to under a Catalan Republic
An article from 2014 from the Financial Times. This is how Catalonia has been ruled in the last 30 years by the Pujol family and the other local bosses.
In December 2012, one of Mr Pujol Ferrusola’s former girlfriends, María Victoria Álvarez, told the Udef that her former boyfriend regularly brought bags of cash from Andorra. She accompanied him on one trip where he took a backpack filled with €400,000 in €500 and €200 bank notes from the country, which is known as a tax haven.
https://www.ft.com/content/5b36e882-2066-11e4-b8f4-00144feabdc0
6
You're absolutely correct, Jordi Pujol was and still is a disgraceful and corrupt Catalan politician. There's only one reason why he is not in jail. He did not conspire by himself, he did so in connivence with many high-rank Spanish politicians and members of the Spanish monarchy. He has said repeatedly that should he be brought down, he'll release incriminatory evidence that would drag along a plethora of accolades. So there he is, enjoying his walks in and around Andorra. Corruption is rampant in the 1978 regimen ranks, of which Pujol was part
1
Yes the Catalans are selfish, period. They have their own language, parliament, free borders with Spain and EU. So what makes sense. If they are independent they will be excluded from Spain, have to have their own currency and excluded from EU fora period of time. Its sort of almost racist in terms of what they want, going backwards from a multi cultural multi country system
10
We want to decide for ourselves what type of government we want to live under, and interact with other nations on equal (not superior) terms. If that's selfish, well yes, book me in, then, but I don't see it like that. As for the currency, where do you get the idea that a Catalan Republic, even if it remains outside of the EU, won't be able to use the Euro as its legal currency? Andorra uses the Euro, and it is not a EU country. It's yet to be seen what would make the most sense for Catalonia, but EU membership and the use of Euro as a currency are much less related than you may think.
I hope Catalonia can remain in the EU, but if it doesn't, it will not be because of Catalonia's selfishness, but rather Europe's. In the weeks and months to come, when Spain's heavy machinery treads over Catalonia, we will have an opportunity to see the true colors and the degree of generosity of the European countries.
3
It’s not about making Catalonians freer, that’s for sure. Independence means one can’t get out of Catalonia, work or live anywhere else in the EU. It’s stupid but that is what the Catalonian elite wants for their people.
5
Rajoy, head of Spain, send in the troops, the teachers and the police against the coup by this band of delusional power grabbers. Since when 30% of the people of a town can separate from a Nation, imposing themselves on the other 70%? And no more abuses on the speakers of Castilian by the racist worshipers of the "superior Catalan race"
4
If you're so indignant, why don't you come yourself? It's easy to ask Rajoy to send the troops, the teachers and the police. Even a five-year old can say that.
2
It seems natural to root for the aspirations of a people to independent self-determination. But, the unfairness of an independence vote boycotted by the opponents aside, what if Barcelona wanted to secede from the new state of Catalonia? Would the Catalonians cheer their efforts?
5
Yes, they would. We believe the right to self-determination is a universal right of all peoples. This type of premise is actually the basis of the clarity clause that was introduced in Canada's legislation as a pre-requirement for the Quebec self-determination referendum, which I and most independentist Catalans would endorse
2
Prime minister Rajoy just called an early election. What if the Independentist increase their score and win a clear majority in next Catalan parliament?
1
Very good point, that's actually what would have happened. It's a moot point now because the independentist parties have already stated they won't take part in that election because no foreign nation can call elections in a sovereign state, but that's certainly what would have happend.
2
@Daniel. No, it would not. Catalonia is not being recognized by any country, and it has a dark economic prospect -a far set of facts from the promised land of milk and cookies that was promised by independists. I’m pretty sure millions have thought of the actual practice of independence and decided they’d rather eat under the “oppression” of Madrid than starve under the real oppression of the extremists that lied to them and now have taken over.
1
Remember when the British disbanded the American Continental Congress?
5
The stupidity of any macho culture is that no effort is made to negotiate, collaborate, listen, learn and co exist peacefully without power, authority, self importance and ego getting in the way.
The Madrid government, prone to dictatorship and fascism, did not become a democracy up until the 70s. In stead of showing respect and appreciation for Catalan culture, without dominating it or controlling it to much, it fed the separatists and secessionists. Now Madrid has done what it did in the past that only fed the Catalan independence movement. There are serious problems on both sides. There are Catalans who feel superior to the rest of Spain with a bit racism too. But the rest of Spain acts like colonial Spain: that was responsible the the brutal imperialism of Latin and South America. Catalonians do have the right to complain about "No taxation without adequate representation and reciprocity". The rest of Spain has the right to complain about "What about 'us', and what about unity?"
It is time more educated intelligent sensible women came to power in Spain, like in Germany.
3
I take issue with your assertion that Catalan independentism is tinged by racism. There is a definite sentiment of a Catalan distinct identity, but it has nothing to do with race or country of origin, but rather values and cultural traits. My family is a case in point. Half of them are immigrants from other parts of Spain, but they all voted for independence because they value the open culture that embraced them and also see the hostility of Rajoy's government towards Catalonia. At risk of unfair generalizations, you need only look at the politics on each side. Catalan independentism is fueled mostly by liberal, progressive left-wing parties, whereas Spanish unionism is mostly driven by highly conservative blocks. Look at the leaders. Carles Puigdemont is married to a Romanian woman, whereas the Partido Popular leader in Catalonia, Xavier Albiol, advocated for the deportation of Roma immigrants in Badalone, the city of which he was mayor, suggesting they were mostly thiefs and criminals.
Other than that, I think your assessment is pretty accurate, and I concur wholeheartedly that a women-led government would inject much needed empathy in our politics on both sides.
4
Daniel needs to stop lying. It’s not the conservatives only the ones supporting unity. The PSOE is a left wing socialist party, the second largest in the country, and it is also against Catalonia independence. Madrid has a nearly complete majority of bipartisan support in parliament and the majority of public opinion that supports a united nation.
2
Things are going so well for Catalunya as part of Spain that some folks have excess time on their hands to foment this trouble. This is payback for giving Catalunya unparalleled powers as a region. When I worked in Madrid for a period of years for a U.S. multinational we had a number of executives in our office who hailed from Barcelona. They were all pro Spain with Catalunya as part of Spain. Further they had family throughout Spain. Similarly, many Madrilenos in our office also had relatives who lived and worked in Catalunya. Independent of the law, serious business people on both sides of the aisle see the substantial benefits of Catalunya remaining part of Spain. And the notion that the culture of the people in Catalunya is somehow different from Madrid or the rest of Spain is utter nonsense -- just a trumped up excuse to support the nonsense we are seeing today. The fact is, as it is here in the U.S., that the culture of Spain, a country the size of Texas, has lost most of its regional differences. Madrid is right in this conflict and the small number of troublemakers should be punished as their acts are against the laws of Spain which were accepted and approved by an overwhelming majority of Catalans.
13
Well, your comment suggest that you work a lot and never travelled around Spain to understand the real differences and that the una, unica y grande is a myth in Spain. Just FYI, I consider myself bicultural and I was very proud of it until someone--i.e. Wert--told me I am a second class Spanish citizen, or not Spanish enough just because I speak two languages. I would suggest you to review the concept of representation linked to taxation and structural discrimination, as well as reviewing the political consensus reached in 1978, the conditions it was done and the lack of social consensus. When you understand the other side, then you are able to talk with respect. I don't see a hint of respect or empathy in your argument.
3
Those years you spent in Spain didn't do you much good. You should come back and spend a little bit of time in Catalonia as well. Only a fool would deny the obvious singularities of Catalan's culture. No better or worse than Spain's, but certainly quite unique. All Catalans are at least bilingual, Spaniards are mostly monolingual. Catalans' politics lean strongly to the left, whereas Spain's leans aggressively to the right (the PP is only the 5th force in terms of votes in Catalonia, vs. the 1st in Spain). Bullfighting is banned in Catalonia, the only place in mainland Spain where it is. Monarchy is abhorred in Catalonia, whereas in Spain it is mostly revered. These are some of the most visible ones that even a visitor working for a US multinational would perceive easily. There are many more (and more significant) differences that would require a less prejudiced mind to notice them.
There's one point where you are right, though. Catalans voted overwhelmingly in favor of the Spanish constitution in 1978. They would have voted for anything. I would have voted for Snow White and the seven dwarfs as the constitution if need be. After four decades of Francoism, I would have signed a blank check. But 70% of those who voted it are now dead, and the new generations want more, and rightfully so. That's how progress is made.
5
Daniel, the CIU, the dominant political party in Catalonia before its split last year, was a right leaning party similar to the PP on most issues except Catalan independence. I'm curious what you mean by Spanish culture and Catalan culture being very distinct. What are the massive differences between the culture in Catalonia and Valencia (where the main language is also a variant of Catalan), for example?
1
Rajoy is a dinosaur from an era long gone by.
6
The article states, "Most of the lawmakers opposed to independence walked out of the chamber in protest before the vote." Could they possibly tell us how many of them did so? What percentage of the legislature they represented?
4
David, the Catalan Parliament has 135 seats. 82 MP's voted, and thus 53 abandoned the chamber. An absolute majority assuming all MP's are present is reached with 68 votes. So even accounting for the MP's that left, an absolute majority in favor of independence was reached (70 yes, 10 noes, 2 abstentions) and could not have been altered even if all the missing MP's had stayed and voted no.
3
52 left in protest. 11 voted no. 2 votes were blank. 1 resignation from the government the night before.
That makes 66.
70 voted yes.
Catalan Parliament has 72 seats that can be considered pro-indrpendence representing 48% of the vote.
63 seats against independence 52% of the vote.
This discrepancy is due to the way parliamentary seats are assigned in favor of less populated agrarian regions.
Hardly a clear mandate for independence.
2
Those opposed hold 63 seats, the pro independence movement hold 72. However, due to a different division of votes to seats, those 72 seats only reprsent 48% of the votes.
1
In case you're wondering how wars start, have a look at these people. They have not the smallest idea of what they're doing. They think it's a big party and they want to be part of the Cool People. It won't seem so Cool as soon as the government rolls in, and the fanatics take to the hills, and they start setting off bombs in Barcelona.
8
Nonsense. Catalans are first and foremost peaceful, and very pragmatic. You may be thinking of another region in northern Spain, but not the Catalans. We did not have a problem with terrorist groups even under Franco when it would have been even accepted by the civilian population, let alone now. There won't be a need for it, anyway. Rajoy won't have the courage or the support required to intervene militarily.
Also, did you see many Catalans run for the hills and set off bombs when they were brutally charged by the Spanish police 4 weeks ago? Probably not. Maybe you were hiding in your own cabin somewhere in the Canadian rockies and missed the action.
5
You are quite right, Everyman. Shades of ex-Yugoslavia, circa 1991. Wait until Barcelona is transformed into an Iberian version of Sarajevo sooner than we think, too. The EU will wring its hands in impotence, merely lamenting the disapppearance of another cool air 'n b getaway plan in Barcelona.....
I oppose Catalonian independence for the following reasons:
1. Catalonian independence would weaken the economy of Spain as a whole, and Spain constitutes a far larger population than Catalonia. Catalonian separatists selfishly believe separation will improve their own standard of living at the expense of the rest of Spain.
2. In fact, Catalonian independence would most likely weaken the economy of Catalonia itself, both because it would diminish trade with the rest of Spain and because it would end Catalonia's participation in the E.U.
3. Catalonian independence would further aggravate the tension between those who live in Catalonia itself, particularly between those who identify more with its Catalan culture and those who identify more with the culture of Spain as a whole. (I assume these groups are partly based on their relative use of the Catalan language as opposed to Spanish).
4. More broadly, Catalonian independence would be a victory of tribalism over multiculturalism. Multiculturalism represents feelings of empathy and commonality with people who are different, as opposed to alienation from and distaste for the other.
Some cultural or ethnic pride can be healthy and productive, in that it can reinforce a feeling of belonging and well being. But when cultural or ethnic pride is excessive, it can lead to selfishness, disparagement, hostility, aggressiveness, and conflict. This is happening in Catalonia.
13
Re: 2) Catalunyan economy would only be damaged because Spain and EU would try to punish Catalunya for their independence; Catalunyans preference for self-rule should be respected, and should not be interfered with by Spain or EU. We either REALLY believe in Democracy or we don't.
2
I support the independence of the East Village, NYC. Stop the oppression of the upper east side against the real New Yorkers who have lived in the authentic old buildings for ages. East Villagers, declare your independence!!
18
I just got a tweet from King George III in London saying that none of this will amount to anything.
5
The current king of Spain is the last of a long royal line starting with the Franks, Louis XIV's grandson became the first French Spanish king, Phillip V, after winning a war of succession. He laid into Catalunya for having supported his rival, and it's been up and down since.
Now history repeats itself. Borrell II, Count of Barcelona told the Franks to go fly a kite in the tenth century, and President Puigdemont tells their last son, Philip VI, to go fly even higher in the 21st.
Frank you very much, but no Franks.
5
Time for democracy. The first measure the federal government has taken after the Senate has approved the application of the 155 has been to call for a snap regional election on December 21 (the shortest period allowed by the Electoral Law). Not exactly oppression or bulldozing democracy. Now
everyone, including secessionists, have a free, legal, open, transparent, free-of-fraud, equal opportunity opportunity of showing their support for secession or not. We are going to see the true colors of democracy and democratic values of every side.
3
We had one such election 2 years ago, with the highest turnout ever (77%), and it happened that pro-indepdence parties were the most voted option (48% vs. 39% anti-independence parties and 13% uncommitted parties). That's how the Catalan Parliament that promoted the referendum and declared independence came to be.
When you say that the next elections will be free, legal, open and transparent, rre you implying the 2015 Catalan elections weren't?
4
Daniel, it sounds like in the last election the separatists didn't get a majority. So why are they pushing their agenda on half of the region?
Not that I'm fond of conspiracy theories but here's one:
To avoid a civil war and to prevent being seen as Franco's henchman, Madrid decides to cut its losses and lets Catalonia go. Catalonia then finds itself out of the EU, with no support from Latin America and the US, and having to grapple with the fact that they don't have currency, its citizens will most likely need a visa to travel to EU states and elsewhere and an exodus of businesses like nothing any has ever seen in modern times.
What to do? Who can help out? Enter Vladimir Putin. In exchange for much needed cash now Catalonia has to accommodate the Russian Mafia, which means turning Catalonia into a hub for organized crime. This includes Russian banks to launder Putin's money popping up all over the place, Russian ships trafficking with meth, heroin and synthetic cannabinoids produced in Russia and its satellite states for distribution across Europe; arms, counterfeit currency and, last but not least, people.
Argentina, Colombia and Mexico already said they won't recognize an independent Catalonia. If Nicaragua and Venezuela do I would see that as a sign that Putin is closing in.
4
Interesting and plausible theory. Catalonia would become another Macedonia.
4
It is a scenario that I have thought about. And not just Russia, but also China and Middle Eastern powers. But I am convinced that such a scenario is also envisioned by European and US leaders, and it is what will prompt them to eventually recognize Catalonia. Begrudgingly, that's for sure, but better a European Catalonia than one aligned with the axis of evil. The EU and the US have absolutely no interest in seeing Catalonia falter.
1
Don't forget -- they possess one of the greatest collections of nuclear warheads, too. And a formidable recipe for radioactive tea, too.
Absent from much of the reporting on the crisis in Catalunya is the context in which all this is unfolding: namely, that both Puigdemont (of the Catalan Generalitat) and Rajoy (of Madrid's Partido Popular) have in recent months been engulfed in political scandals that have threatened both their political careers. Their respective heavy handed actions are more about shoring up their bases than doing what would have been reasonable --namely, establishing a timetable for an orderly referendum as happened in Scotland. The unilateral action by Puidgemont and the calculatedly violent response by Rajoy will probably now lead to eventual independence for Catalunya in the coming years --which will be just as detrimental to Catalunya and Spain as Brexit will be to Britain. In the early 1980s when the military junta in Argentina was losing control of that country, they invaded the Malvinas/Falklands in a bid to galvanize nationalist sentiment and gain international support. For Margaret Thatcher, whose awful government was months away from being ousted, this was political manna from heaven, and the Falklands war revived her regime. Puigdemont and Rajoy are just as cynical, and both Spain and Catalunya will be the worse for it.
1
It's a lie that Catalonia has been treated fairly. it is a direct result of discrimination against Catalonia that this has happened. I support their separation.
5
Bottom line of everything: 1. most (but not all) catalans don't feel spanish and want independence. 2. spanish living in Catalonia still feel spanish and most (but not all) don't want to separate. 3. Spain could care less for catalans, whom for centuries have expressed contempt at being part of Spain; but will keep it in by force because it is the most advanced region of Spain (in pretty much everything). 4. not many outside Catalonia have much sympathy for catalan independence, but if they protest loud and long enough, some, perhaps the EU, will demand that some compromise be reached in order to alleviate the headache and move on.
5
The independence movement in Catalunya has my fullest sympathies and deepest support. If Catalunya and its people aspire to become a nation in the eyes of the world, and to create a homeland for Catalans - in Catalunya, of all places - in which Catalan people control Catalan destinies, then Godspeed. Hopefully they can pull it off. I find the lack of empathy for the secessionists in this article's comments revolting.
That being said, this vote doesn't seem like a good start. I would have voted "Nay" myself.
3
I lived in Catalonia under Franco, I went to high school there, I speak Catalá, as do most of my Barcelona friends. I read the NYT coverage with sadness at the pro-Castillian bias it betrays. It is unwitting; I am sure the paper has assigned "Spanish" speaking reporters to Spain, seems to make sense. However even when interviewing people in Barcelona, the reporter fails to note and I am sure most readers fail to notice that Federico Escolar and Cristina Juana are both non-Catalán names. Where is the background explaining why so many Catalans want independence? It is not just that they have "a different language and culture and some economic grievances." They have been mistreated and repressed by the dominant ethnic group for generations. As I rode the bus with my high school friends one morning, we saw the falangists in broad daylight, on Barcelona's major avenue pasting large posters to apartment walls, storefronts, and bridge girders signs that read "Speak in Christian, Don't Bark Like Dogs!"
7
Sir, You should say something about the present. You are talking about the Franco period with no context. There are many regional identities in Spain and all suffered under fascism. As Spain moved to create a democracy out of the ashes of Franco in 1975 to 1978, the 17 autonomous regions were given a great deal of power, and indeed autonomy. Why should populist politicians in Cataluña have a right to unilaterally and cynically lead a rebellion from the very nation state that recognizes and grants it regional identity and autonomy? What about the other regions? In part, Cataluña has become rich by importing labor from the rest of Spain. You can be both an autonomous region and belong to Spain. But I agree there should be a lot more political nuance to this coverage, and an economic analysis. Also more opinions from the rest of the peninsula.
7
Life in Spain today is NOTHING like it was under the dictatorship of Franco. Catalonia has one of the most autonomous governments in the world. They are far from oppressed. Spain today is a thriving democracy with freedom for all its citizens and separation of powers.
3
David, Spain's Partido Popular was founded by Manual Fraga, a minister under Franco who signed execution orders and under whose command countless political dissidents were murdered or summarily executed (Julian Grimau, Enrique Ruano, the 5 Vitoria factory workers). Manual Fraga never apologized for his crimes and remained the PP's honorary president until his death five years ago (2012). Francoism is alive and well in the PP. The PP also vetoed a law in 2013 that would have banned Franco propaganda and symbols, and as a result we still have such beauties as a Francisco Franco foundation in Spain. Last, many prominent PP party members are openly francoists. Three cases that I find especially disturbing are those of Juan Antonio Morales, Ana Rivelles and Antonio Pozo, who received and accepted in person awards from the Francisco Franco foundation for their support for the name and memory of the dictator. Under pressure, one of them even had the gall to concede that he accepted the award at a personal level, not on behalf of the PP. Thanks goodness, all forgiven then, I guess.
1
And I thought it would start on the 38th Parallel.
As a Catalan person and a human rights professor I believe Catalonia suffers from a soft form of oppression consisting in its citizens not being free as other nations to legally express their views and determine their political future. Systemic inequality, lack of recognition and being subjected to a politics of fear and constant cultural aggression are also forms of domination that should not be accepted in the XXI century. Mr. Rajoy has refused for years now to sit with Mr. Puigdemont, has rejected mediation over and over. Why? Because this would entail recognising Catalans as valid interlocutors, and what his government wanted was absolute surrender. He could have avoided this, but actually seizes the opportunity to pursue with policy of suppression. Same goals that Franco had; other apparently more democratic means. The complicity of the EU shows how much this is based on a club of powerful states rather than a union of citizens based on principles.
31
They are free to express themselves politically, they just have to do it within the constitution. Follow the rules and then change the rules, if you want.
6
“Fear and cultural agression”? You haven’t visited Catalonia very much lately... and i am thinking on the last two or three decades. Don’t you realize that the monopolization of the media and the education by the nationalist discourse for decades -in a culturally attacked region from your point of view... something does not fit- has brought Catalonia here? Who has been applying fear to whom? You should ask not-nationalists living there. Maybe parents who have wanted, not having the option, to school their children in their mother tongue, the other co-oficial language, Spanish. Talk about soft repression...
The desire of independence is based on feelings. Period. Feelings of being different to your neighbour. This is the only real argument and the only one i am buying. I personally don’t care about the result of this process, but i don’t see fair tryng to justify it on things that are not true.
4
What oppression and inequality are you suffering? Rajoy is not doing things right, that's for sure, but this continuous myth of the oppression of the Catalonian people has already gone too far. For starters, all indications are that there is not even a simple majority in favor of independence, let alone the kind of majority that could reasonably justify a secession. Second, I would think that all the Catalans against independence are the ones currently suffering oppression, not to mention fear of being expelled, or losing their citizenship. Also, all this narrative reverting and comparing the current government to Franco, as if it were close to a dictatorship is as false as the story of Catalonia as the only victim of Francoism, when precisely Madrid was another of the hardest hit cities in the country during the war, and the murder and repression were national. they didn't discriminate according to which region you came from, if you had leftist or simply democratic ideas, that was enough from them whether you came from Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia, Sevilla or San Sebastián.
3
The secessionists are sinking Catalonia in a nightmare. The free, prosperous and dynamic region has been transformed in a divided society, without political importance. I don't agree many of Rajoy politics, but I support him in his efforts to restore the law, the Spanish Constitution and the rule of law in Catalonia. The only end of the secessionist is the jail and the shame.
8
Don't worry. We'll be all right. All we need is that Spain stops taking our money and leave us alone. Worry about something else.
5
Like most people outside of Spain, I have very little first-hand knowledge or basis for an opinion.
A professor from Barcelona has recently weighed in:
https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/10/04/why-catalans-want-independence-f...
Of course this is merely one view.
The mayor of Barcelona has spoken many times about the crisis as well:
https://www.citylab.com/equity/2017/10/ada-colau-at-citylab/543615/
https://www.cnbc.com/video/2017/10/03/barcelona-mayor-spains-rajoy-must-...
2
The Spanish government will be making the case for why this is a manufactured crisis. The cynical ploy by the Catalan government to push for independence through a secret vote is all anyone needs to know. The negotiations to return to constitutional arrangements broke down over the question of immunity yesterday because the separatist leaders did not want to be accountable for this mess. The vote today was secret, allowing two separatists to vote no deliberately, so it then would be plausible to say to a judge "no one knows how I voted." Avoiding the vote of an autonomous region that might finally depose the nationalists, avoiding criminal sanctions for manifestly illegal actions and avoiding the moral responsibility for this conflict by voting in secret. This is largely theater. The great champions of civil disobedience break the law out of respect for the law. As citizens they accept the consequences. Most of these separatists are just garden variety politicians trying to save their privileged position(s) when they know what the future holds.
5
"Divide and rulet..." that's what these ignorant egocentrics that we have in power have done. I only hope Spain's inert President finish the quote by "uniting and leading." As a Catalan and Spaniard I am truly ashamed of the image we are sending to the world.
3
Things are beginning to unravel in Spain and elsewhere in the world. The more Spain and the EU try to resist this drive for independence the faster the process of unraveling will be. The establishment obviously does not like this idea, but they have had their chance and they blew it. If Spain uses the military to enforce its will and the EU supports this step, this will spell the doom for the EU.
19
So instead of "resisting", the Spanish government should allow people to break the law whenever it pleases them? What about the other half of Catalonians who abide by the law and do not want to secede?
The military's job is not to enforce the law. This will be solved mostly by the courts.
What would spell doom for the EU would be to allow every ethnic group in Europe who thinks they're better than the rest (Catalan supremacists have publicly compared themselves to *very white* Denmark and the rest of Spain to Morocco, Africa.
The only thing that is going to unravel is the web of lies that Catalan supremacists have been weaving for way too long.
2
“In such circumstances there can be no argument; the necessary minimum of agreement cannot be reached ... It is as though in the middle of a chess tournament one competitor should suddenly begin screaming that the other is guilty of arson or bigamy. The point that is really at issue remains untouched.”
― George Orwell, Homage to Catalonia
Puigedemont's merry band of populists and nihilists cant be reasoned with, not at this point. Its time for Madrid to do its duty -- send in the Civil Guards.
These catalanist nationalists parties have basically taken advantage of democracy´s good will (and millions of public money to subsidize it) to brain wash for many years a part of the population, with the idea that people living in their region, are superior and better, ant thus with more and better rights than people lving in Seville, Valencia, Cuenca, or anywhere else of the rest of Spain. Like other fascists movements in the past (Nazis bringing down the Weimar republic in 1933´s Germany), they proclaim themselves the "true and authentic catalans". Pure supremacism and fascism. By the way: They did not ask me for permission to feel like a foreigner in my own country, Spain, or asking me, how should my country be. (very undemocratic!). Maybe nationalist fascist catalanist imagine not to be spaniards. Fine. Some people think themselves to be Napoleon Bonaparte as well. That does not entitle them to destroy my country and making me need a passport when I am in my beloved city of Barcelona or in Costa Brava.
16
Still within my lifetime, ultra-nationalism caused a holocaust of humanity and a nuclear annihilation. Again, histories of a tragic mistakes, forgotten and in the trash-bin.
5
Hey, Benjamin Franklin, James Madison and all: you are now declared traitors to His Majesty King George. The Hessians will be landing shortly.
3
The anti-Catalonia comments here are disgusting. I guess there really is nothing the American media and political left hate more than democracy.
10
Why the political left? In Catalonia the left wing parties have been the main pro-independence engine, and also the conservative party of Mr. Puigdemont. In Catalonia it is not a matter of Left vs Right, but self-determination expressed in a peaceful, democratic way vs the intransigence and dictatorial imposition of the Spanish government which is acting as if this were still the XIX Century.
3
Catalonia deserves Independence if that is what the people want. Scotland should rid itself of Occupation also and declare Independence. Gibraltar should go to Spain and the Falklands should be returned to Argentina!!! England can keep Northern Ireland since the Republic doesn't want to have it.
7
Only 27% of the catalonians want "independence". The rest of of the 73% of true Catalonians want to remain in Spain. You are obviously buying into the warped narrative of a few corrupt, populist politicians.
5
That is absolutely untrue. The vast majority of Catalans do want independence. A majority voted for pro-independence parties and mayors. Those who were brave enough to vote in the face of violent repression, while trying to protect their ballot boxes, voted overwhelmingly for independence. Those are facts. Pro independence parties range from far Left to moderate Left to Conservative. The whole spectrum.
4
I know of several Catalonians here in Los Angeles who have flown back to Barcelona to join the party. Because that's what it is--a party. Little more than a group of self-centered and entitled people getting caught up in a moment of great political immaturity and rejoicing in their tearing away from big, bad Spain. It makes a mockery of all movements that have struggled and are struggling to break free from real, actual oppression. It's just annoying, frankly.
20
Agree. That is what makes the situation so abhorrent. There really are so many on this earth that are opressed. The Catalans certainly are not. And what are the Catalans anyway? Spaniards from all of Spain went to Catalonia in the 50s, 60s, 70s... they all worked to make the region what it is today.
1
Pedro in catalan is Pere, in Spain you can easily change your official name to catalan or basque or galician language.
I remember when I was a child (40 years ago) my relatives in Catalonia had catalonian names and you can see the proof here: there two of seven politicians who wrote the Constitution of 1978 ("los padres de la Constitucion") who were catalan and had catalonian names: Jordi Solé Tura and Miquel Roca.
7
Kurds - hurrah! Catalans - booo! Americans, who read just about nothing about either people and really have zero reason to be involved in either place outside their love of picking sides without thinking, retain their right to heartfelt, unsubstantiated, bias.
9
The term "Greatest constitutional crisis" is a stupidity. I wish the press could restrain themselves from this type of self indulgent rhetoric, but sadly history indicates that this is unlikely. Spain is once again shooting itself in the foot, the end game here is force, and that is a sad testament to the failure for Western democratic thought. The same wedge that Rajoy is driving between PSOE and Podemos is also ripping Spain apart. Good work.
3
An adage, An Adult who has the hands raised beholding a kids toy up with the arms so as to keep the toy out of the kids reach, will at somepoint get his arm wornout and will have to bring the toy down to the kids reach. So much for democracy and open system. What a joke. What was wrong with the last election? Spain
The Catalans have always been a republican people as opposed to a monarchy one. So they fought against Franco in the civil war before WW2.
Catalunia simply does not fit in in the Madrid fascist regime.
Any regional part of any country should be OKed to part from a central government hostile to its needs and feelings.
That might lead to a lot of small nations.
So what?
Small nations small wars.
Big nations big wars.
So the more small nations and the less big ones,
the less danger of nuking up the entire planet.
8
smaller is better because it allows for more democratic representation
4
People from all of Spain fought franco’s forces in the civil war. People from all of Spain were persecuted in the dictatorship. It was not based on what region you were from but based on your ideas. Spain is NOT a fascist regime! It is a democracy today and Catalonia is one of the most autonomous regions of Europe.
I am in Barcelona and at 76, today I demonstrated for independence with the Catalonian people, whose spirit was defiant and joyful, peaceful and filled with brotherhood.
All people, according to the UN Charter, have the right of self-determination, and so this independence is for democracy, the sacred right of a people to govern themselves, no less than the America Revolution which loyalists called illegal, treasonous, etc.
Often it is the law which is criminal for depriving people of their rights. Consider the Dred Scott case where the property rights of whites in their slaves trumped any rights the slaves might have.
Catalonians have their own language, culture, and a proud history...and per international law, which when ratified becomes the law of the land, they have the right to independence. That it takes violence to deprive them of this right explains sufficiently why they seek it: their agenda is liberty, self-determination, and democracy.
I stand with them and against the violence of the Spanish state. Here then is the law which the Spanish state is violating: "The principle of self-determination is prominently embodied in Article I of the Charter of the United Nations. . Its inclusion in the UN Charter marks the universal recognition of the principle as fundamental
13
Comparing being part of Spain to slavery and this decision to Dred Scott? OK...
9
Greetings Mr. Ruff
Congratulations for a wonderful and endearing speech. Unfortunately, you are misinformed:
1. The UN Charter on Self Determination explains that this applies when a people are oppressed. The Catalans haven't been oppressed since the constitution of 1978 was approved by over 90+% of Catalans.
2. The UN Charter on Self Determination applies when a region is annexed or is a colony of some other state.
3. You can not compare Cataluña with the US. The North American states were colonized by the British. Spain hasn't colonized Cataluña. Cataluña was part of the kingdom of Aragon. Aragon joined the kingdom of Castille in 1469 to form present day Spain.
4. The laws of the land, you claim haven't been followed. As a matter of fact
the secessionist Catalans violated the laws of their own parliament on the 6th & 7th of September to call for the illegal referendum
Sorry to have woken you up! I suggest you speak with other people so you get a better picture of what the truth is
20
Memories of Franco, fascism and the historical suppression of the Catalan people.
Who could not be sympathetic to their cause?
8
Spain is no longer a fascist dictatorship. It is a democracy which was obtained peacefully by all Spaniards at the death of Franco, including Catalans and who all voted overwhelmingly in favor. Also, all Spaniards suffered during the dictatorship, not only Catalans.
Many commentators in this forum believe that most catalans clearly don't want independence. That belief is quite baseless and certainly not shared by anyone who has grown up there (unless, of course, one is lying to oneself). There is only one way to know what catalans want and that is a referendum. No reason not to advocate for this utmost form of democracy, unless, of course, one is just not interested in what catalans have to say.
10
Rajoy today called for the Catalonian elections that the secessionists refused to call for (though coming near to doing so as recently as yesterday). That's on 21 December--only 2 months away. Let's see if the secessionists really are interested in hearing what the Catalonians have to say now that so many of their Promised Land lies have been exposed for what they are (including [1] companies would flock to Catalonia to invest vs. 1600 and counting switching their headquarters mainly to Madrid, irony of ironies, just in the past week and [2] the EU and international community would fall all over themselves to recognize jubilantly the new state or tremble at the consequences [on the contrary, no government has openly endorsed a declaration of independence, not surprisingly given that it had at best 47.7% of Catalonian support).
7
Whatever your feelings in this issue, the formal point has already been made: having declared its independence, Catalonia cannot allow another state to call elections!
Yesterday the Catalan government was negotiating to hold regional elections and return to constitutional arrangements when the process broke down over immunity for the leaders of the legislative coup. What does it say about your ability to understand politics as theater when you take the separatist's words oh so seriously without watching what they actually do. The resolution of the problem will be made harder by today's actions but it will be resolved through the use of law. The nationalists are manufacturing their status as victims in a media savvy way--A+ for narrative-- but one untethered to the concrete realities of the world we live in. The EU will continue to support Spain. The Spanish people will defend their sovereignty. The rights of the non-nationalists will be recognized as equally valid as the separatists. Democracies have the right to defend themselves against unilateral impositions.
9
I have no idea what's happening in Catalonia having visited there years ago. I know they've always felt different both culturally, linguistically and ethnically from Spain. All I can say is, if they're experiencing anything like what's happening here with Donald Trump, I can empathize with them. How about a NYexit, Gov. Cuomo? This is a mental health crisis with blue state PTSD--Persistent Trump Stress Disorder.
5
Except it is the discourse and behavior of the pro-independence Catalans that is like the trump rhetoric here. You have your sides mixed up here.
Isn't it better to become an independent country without shooting any bullet? More than two million people voted for the independence in a vote that was largely demanded by the Catalan people, only threatened by a violent reaction from the Spanish government. I was born in Barcelona with the dictator Franco still in power, the Catalans have been fighting for long to keep our language and culture. The Spanish Constitution is not the bible, it doesn't reflect our reality nowadays. And the stubbornness of the Spanish Prime minister made any dialog impossible. Let's hope there will be no violence, but the Catalan people have decided democratically.
10
Very nicely put Xavier. Thank you. Since you are well educated and well schooled, I am sure you can understand why the Supreme Constitutional Court declared the October 1 referendum illegal when it ruled that on the matter of Spain's sovereignty the rest of Spain had to decide.
6
To all commenters that make Franco the scapegoat of all evils in the world: Catalonia has had almost 40 years of self rule, with absolute control on education, health care, finances, TV and intra-Catalonian civil works. Catalan is the official language in Catalonia, TV is in Catalan, colleges and schools teach in Catalan.
The Generalissimo is still dead and has not being found alive in Barcelona.
29
Absolute control over our finances? That can't be serious. That issue is at the root of the whole conflict. As for infrastructure, it is well-known that Catalonia has some of the most expensive toll roads in all of the Spanish state (while similar roads in the rest of Spain are subsidized, in part by Catalan taxes), and we still don't have a long-overdue and repeatedly promised but never delivered high-speed train connection between Barcelona and the rest of Europe along the Mediterranean, while Spain has been building unprofitable and unneeded high-speed train links between Madrid and large and small towns in a radial model. As for education, need I remind you of the 2014 Spanish decree to establish a mandatory and totally arbitrary quota of Spanish language classes in schools, despite the fact that Catalan students had well-above average grades in Spanish language and other subjects compared to the rest of Spain? That was the result of a deliberate strategy of the former Spanish secretary of education, who literally said that Catalan children had to be spaniardized ("españolizados"). How is that for absolute control over education for Catalonia? Last, in your list you forgot other competencies such as the judicial and executive branches, where uncalled for subordination to Spanish rule still existed until this morning.
6
And Franco's regime oppressed people in all of Spain. He was an equal opportunity oppressor. The rhetoric of victim-hood does not fly.
Since the vote in the Catalan parliament was done by secret ballot, it is hard to imagine how "secessionists" will be accused and/or convicted. Being an immigrant here in Spain in a different autonomous region (though having lived in Catalonia for 6 years), your article needs at least to illustrate some of the grievances of the Catalan poeple. The 2010 Autonomy Act of Catalonia was passed in Catalonia & accepted by the Spanish paliament. Then Mr. Rajoy took Calalonia to the constiturional court and watered down the Act. What didn't Rajoy & co. like? Catalonia banned bullfighting in the Autonomy Act, Madrid restored it. In the Act, Catalonia included a provision not to cut the electric supply of extremely poor people who couldn't pay their bills... Madrid overturned this also. Why? Look at the boards of the big electric companies and you will find a number of ex-politicians, who lobbied Madrid to do so. Let's face it, the vested interests in Madrid don't want to lose the Catalan contribution to the GNP (which is the highest of any autonomous region in Spain). The NYT aldo fails to point out how there are about 700 politicans in the local and regional stuctures of the Partido Popular who are either idncted, in jail or under investigation on corruption charges. Catalans are no saints, but they repudiate the PP's crooks, feel Madrid treats their land as a possession (kind of like the way the US treats Puerto Rico) and that Rajoy's administration treats them like vassals.
9
Am I reading this correctly. In the Autonomy Act in 2010, Catalonians wanted to cut off electricity to poor people? That can't be right.
3
No. You have it backwards. The Catalan Parliament passed a law to prevent people who lost income in the economic crisis and are unable to pay their utility bills from having their water, gas and electricity cut off. The Spanish government declared this law unconstitutional out of pure spite.
3
You forget Jms, that parts of the Catalan Autonomous Acts of 2010 were turned down by the Supreme Constitutional Court. It wasn't Rajoy that deemed those parts unconstitutional
4
In another, saner, world, the US Sec of State or our diplomats might have been working to avert a crisis like this... And in Kenya, Turkey with the Kurds, etc, etc, etc...
But instead, we have a Sec of State nobody in the world (or even in the administration) pays any heed to, and a severs shortage of diplomats and foreign policy experts, since Trump is too busy picking fights (with the widow of a US soldier and the Mayor of San Juan, to name just two) to appoint any needed officials in State and elsewhere. Who need them when we've got Kushner, right?
4
October 27, 2017
Mature nations and its constituents must tolerate reorganizational dynamics in what historically is the universal urge for regions to live in conformity with its state of welling, state of being and indeed for its own greater interest that is genuine to its natural god given spirit and its declarative trajectory that will yield its natural rights alignments in its geopolitical / cultural spirit that prevails as the world reckons universal doctrine. Yet people that are obsessed with dogma for authoritative militaristic demands like as Putin refuses to understand - as happening in Ukraine or for that matter California developing exit from the America Union in light of the darkness of Trumpian orders on many fronts - but we must come to higher powers of the will for righteous voices of the transparency that surfaces and with timelines for adaptation in all that live as a organic social collective vitality for opportunities to live, speak, and configure gracefully, virtually, and with honor to the human spirit exemplar.
jja Manhattan, N Y
1
I'm a bit fed up with that assumed truth about the catalan language supressed under Franco's dictactorship.
Lluis Llach, Joan Manuel Serrat, María del Mar Bonet and others were very succesful singers in catalan in the seventies and sixties. Julio Iglesias was succesful too singing in galician. In 1970 a song in galician from Andrés do Barro made the spanish number one. That's it: a song in galician was the top hit in ALL Spain under Franco. Even the only TV station, the regime's one, broadcasted it, of course.
A catalan poet, Jacint Verdaguer, was featured in the francoist 500 pesetas bill, in full catalan attire including "barretina".
It's true, regional languages wern't promoted in Franco's Spain, but they weren't banned or prosecuted, at least in the sixties and seventees.
Independentist fake facts accepted as conventional wisdom, again.
13
Spain and Catalan shows why America should have a single approved language, English, to stop peoples fighting with each other. Different languages help divide. They push ancestral culture ahead of American culture that we all share. In the public square, we should all be one people.
3
Switzerland . Explain that.
1
Sad but true. Image the 57 Spanish speakers of the USA being allowed to get their education in Spanish.
It is sad to see again the struggles in Spain. My wife and I were in Spain for three months in 1977, camping in a VW Variant [we were young]. We watched as Catalonia and the Basque region struggled for independence. It was a time, after the death of Franco, when Spain was searching for a new identity. We saw the beauty of Barcelona, the Sagrada Familia, Guell Park, as well as the guardia civil on almost every corner. It seems that the more things change the more they remain the same. To enter Barcelona today as then one recalla the words of Spain's greatest poet G.Lorca..."The two elements the traveler first captures in the big city are extra human architecture and furious rhythm. Geometry and anguish..." Good luck to Catalonia - all Spain, and thanks for the memories...
2
Every nation must t have the right to become independent. If the Constitution in Spain does not allow Catalonian's desire to become independent, there is something wrong with the Constitution.
5
Every nation? Cataluña is not a nation. How about if Ohio wants to be it's own nation? Ok?
The other issue is who says they want to be independent? Some say yes, some say no, but it's not at all clear it's a majority that do. Does the rest of Spain get to provide any input on this move to independence?
Again, think if this was Ohio.
Texas I'd say let 'em go, quicker the better.
7
It's amazing to see how overwhelmingly the Western governments, politicians and medias react against on Catalonia's independence, while hypocritically support the separatists of other countries. Democracy is right only when it serves your own interests.
7
I don't see this as a constitutional crisis. There is provision in the Spanish Constitution for what happens when a regional government goes off the rails. The procedures are being followed. No doubt there will be demonstrations and resistance by the hard core, which will be documented by the NYtimes with the usual splendid camera locations granted by their friends the former Catalan government.
7
So, who is next? Northern Italy?
Don't act like this can't happen. Remember Czechoslovakia? For that matter, what happened in Norway in 1905? There's plenty of peaceful precedent for this, don't act shocked, SHOCKED.
1
The Slovaks and the Cechs after WWI got together on the condition that they could separate when they wanted. You can not apply this example here
4
Asserting control and having control are very different things.
Is Spain willing to deploy a force of 100,000 or so troops to Catalonia to enforce their power?
2
Watch, there is no way out but to enforce the laws of Cataluña and of Spain. And no more oppression of the Catalans speakers of Castilian Spanish. Many things need to be fixed, Spain has all the time in the world.
1
Rajoy is reaping what he sowed. I live in Spain (am on sabbatical) and was present for two previous "referendums" that the Generalitat sponsored as dry runs during the previous two year. Se veía venir (you could see it coming.) The fact that he did not engage Cataluña earlier on a positive note only galvanized the diverse pro-independence parties and plenty of undecideds who have been swept along. Of course, I support invoking Article 155; it´s all he can do in the face of unconstitutional attempts to coerce the secession. But the current administration did little to avert this extreme circumstance during the last two years other than judicial support. He has been reactive rather than proactive.
3
What happens when the exact same government is voted into power in two months? Or a even more extreme pro-separatist government receives the most votes in a "legal" election?
2
Just learn a bit of Catalán and Spanish history. For Catalunya this is a matter of sovereignty, pride, language, culture, ethnicity, and suffrage going on for 300 years.
Take a close look at the accompanying first photo – not an angry face in that jubilant multi-generational crowd. It's called "ENTHUSIASM".
For Spain it's a matter of economic control.
Scroll down to the third: Rajoy (Trumpa) and the legislators behind him in Madrid, choreographed applause, arrogance personified.
Where and with whom would you rather stand?
"VIURE VOL DIR PRENDRE PARTIT" - Catalán
"Vivir quiere decir tomar partido" - Spanish
"To live is to take sides." - inglés
Catalán aphorism, call to arms.
https://www.ecestaticos.com/imagestatic/clipping/9fd/11d/9fd11d2d81278ee...
4
Breaking News: The Catalan state hasn't even started and already, they have secessionists:
http://www.antena3.com/noticias/espana/valle-aran-planteara-independizar...
3
They can't do that, that would be illegal!
2
Will the Basque be next?
If 58% of Catalans didn't even bother to vote I guess they don't care either way.
Viva Catalonia!
2
Remember it was illegal...just that.
And it was illegal because many reasons, including the fact that they broke own Catalonian rules created to protect all of Catalonian problems...but who cares? The goal allows for everything!!
3
There's little doubt Rajoy and the Spanish government will ultimately come out on top in this matter. The vast majority of the Spanish people definitely, and probably a majority of the Catalans, are opposed to breaking up Spain. The Catalan independence movement itself is a somewhat weird pairing of conservative fundamentalists and crypto Marxist left wing parties. Imagine Occupy Wall Street and the Tea Party. This largely accounts for the antics of the last few weeks as Puigdemont tried to straddle the competing visions.
Rajoy (who has something of history of letting opponents self destruct) probably learned something from the heavy handed tactics used during the referendum and will now just gently squeeze the regional administration. Over 1000 businesses have already moved their domicile out of Catalonia for legal and operational reasons. Imagine if you're an employee of the local administration or security apparatus; where does you loyalty lie? There is no way the Spanish government will allow Catalonia to secede any more than any responsible US government would allow say Texas to secede (although since the Hurricane all that baloney from our Texan friends seems to have gone quiet).
11
It is amazing to me how many people are commenting in favor of Spain!! This is a centuries long conflict. The Catalan people were killed and oppressed by the Franco regime and the "new" democracy after his death is plagued with fascists aligned to his doctrine.
Did you already forget how the spanish government sent in the policy to beat up citizens that were peacefully voting for their right to self-determination? Yes, just 3 weeks ago. From a government that despises their catalan culture, and taxes this region more heavily than other (yes, for no reason, just because they can), and stifles their identity at every corner because their own insecurities?
Please, Catalonians have the right to be a free country if they desire to. After all, did you ever decide what country YOU are from? Nobody really does...except for the fact that as a human right, we should be able to.
6
@JT
North Carolina
"after his death is plagued with fascists aligned to his doctrine."
Where do you get this nonsense from? A sizeable part of the secessionist movement are conservative fundamentalists. The notion that Rajoy's moderately right of center administration (and considerably left of the US Republican party) is a group of fascists indicates either you have no idea what you are talking about (probably) or have chose to spread falsehoods.
5
How do progressive individual taxes unfairly target Catalonia? The rates are the same for citizens across the country--except the Basque areas. The Catalans pay more because, on average, they earn more. The same "penalty" exists for New York, Toronto and London.
9
Keep Spain intact... do not break up this lovely country for foolish historical reasons which have nothing to do with current reality. Spaniards need to embrace and enjoy their regional differences and carry on as a whole.
6
Is this conflict about taxation without representation, slavery, God, oil, outsourcing, the Electoral College, “Sabine women,” or who invented a certain type of cookie? I’m sure the reasons are explained amply and ubiquitously, but they just don’t seem to pop up in the articles that I see on Catalonia. My fault, of course. One commenter blamed Russia, but they have their hands full with the Ukraine, Chechnya, France and a host of other defectors. Frankly I suspect Dick Cheney (and Hillary, naturally).
Can someone recommend a couple of the better doomed efforts to cobble together a “unified theory” that covers Catalonia, Scotland and Quebec, along with the Basque Country, the Irelands, and Nunevut (all of it), plus Kurdistan and Palestine (to be or not to be), Yugoslavia, Slovakia (and “Czecho”), the Germanies [sic], East Timor, Tibet, Yugoslavia, Monaco, Pakistan de L’Este, the Confederacy, Eritrea, Formosastan, the Koreas, the Vietnam, the USA, Mexico, Canada La Reste, Yugoslavia, Staten Island, and all the other recombinant browning green blobs in our spherical blue Lava Lamp? Is it an unholy alliance of the arms industry, vexillologists, and the ghost of William Randolph Hearst? Is it like changing your wireless plan every couple of years to get a better rate (or keep the same rate)?
If there weren’t a United Nations (grammar reveals a lot) someone would have to invent one for this. I just hope nobody gets killed. I love Gaudi. And El Greco.
1
OOPS! For the sake of Catalonia and the entire Spanish Nation I hope this is not a big mistake. So far, the reasons for secession vs continued federation are unclear from all media reports to date. I wish Catalonia peace and prosperity, but fear this is not the way to achieve it. Franco is dead, good riddance to all fascists. But will an independent Catalonia thrive?
1
This isn't a simple question of democratic self-determination. A majority or large minority of Catalans don't want to leave Spain. Moreover, Barcelona is Spain's commercial gateway to the Mediterranean and Spain has invested heavily in the port facilities, which has enriched Catalonia. This is like the mouth telling the stomach it wants to secede.
16
Still not getting this separatist movement. is there some history of persecution or animus between Catalonia and Spain proper? Why? What's the point?
2
None. No persecution from the rest of Spain, today.
Cataluña was part of the kingdom of Aragon. Aragon would later merge with Castille in 1469 to form present day Spain.
Now go ahead and ask the secessionist Catalans to tell you their history. You'll hear that they had their own parliament 1000 years ago. That they were a nation and that they were annexed. They'll also tell you that Woodrow Wilson was thinking about Cataluña when he coined the term, "the right to self determination". They'll tell you that they have their own culture (which consists of dancing, just like in the rest of Spain or singing, just like in the rest of Spain). They'll also tell you that they're ethnically different (of course after 700 years of intermarriage with the Moors, their blood is definitely different from the rest of the Spaniards.
6
Viva Catalonia!
6
Sad day in history for democracy. This scenario need not have happened. A clueless Spanish government led by what appears to be a Franco wannabe Prime Minister, a ridiculous King who can't keep his mouth shut and a use of force that was way out of control.
I pray that we do not have a repeat of the Spanish Civil War or Northern Ireland's experience with the "troubles. I do know this and that is until this situation clarifies that travelers should stay away.
3
@JWMathews Sarasota, FL
So how would it not have happened? Obviously you'd have no problem with a unilateral declaration of independence by say Texas based on a plebiscite where only 42% of the voters took part. Thanks for letting us know.
15
Agree boycott Spain. Portugal is beckoning
2
The question is: What else can do a country (with its own identity) when it is ruled by other without listen their demands? Americans did the same as Catalans long ago: declare the independence!
2
@Emile NY
So you wish the South had won the civil war? The 13 colonies were never part of the British state. They were no different from parts of India which was part of the British empire at the time. God what has happened to the quality of history teaching in US schools and universities?
11
The history some commenters spout is pretty awful. For example, they think Nixon won because of the Southern Strategy (so called) when Wallace won the Deep South in 1968, and Carter beat Ford there in 1976.
So did the Confederacy. It's not that simple.
1
What needs to be discovered is exactly what other unrelated and significantly more grave crimes Mr Puigdemont and his cronies are trying to sweep under the rug by distracting and creating chaos with this so-called independence referendum? What are they really trying to hide away from their own constituents by feeding them this red meat?
9
Probably has a lot to do with the unsustainable debt of the Catalan regional government, and within a week we will hear demands, faithfully echoed on this website, that Madrid, having ousted the government, also pay the bills.
3
To begin with, the founder of Puigdemont's party, Jordi Pujol, is now being investigated in several corruption cases which cumulatively sum up to about 3 billion Euros. One of Jordi Pujol's sons is now in jail and he still awaits trial for corruption amounting to 1 billion Euros. Their original political party is also being investigated in several corruption cases amounting to about 800 million Euros.
6
This is very old stuff (~2014) but it helps understand the situation today
https://www.ft.com/content/5b36e882-2066-11e4-b8f4-00144feabdc0
https://www.thinkspain.com/news-spain/24700/pujol-family-has-over-half-a...
1
I lived in Barcelona for 3 years in the early 2000s and, even then, I found a strong independence streak among my friends. For example, my friend Pete (Pedro in Catalan) has an official name of Pedro because he was born during Franco and Catalan names weren't allowed. That still blows my mind.
I see so many people saying that the Catalans just don't want to pay their fair share and how is this different than if New York or California secede. Here's the thing: I live in a blue state and I frankly resent the red states who deny science, deny women's rights, deny climate change, embrace their guns.....Worst of all, they helped to elect the most incompetent president our country has ever seen. We have different values.
I feel like many of the same people who argue that this independence movement is ridiculous should consider our own politics. I'm not advocating for secession or dividing up our union. But I understand the Catalan wish to not have their politics and culture hijacked by someone else.
Yes, the Catalans have a high quality of life, but that doesn't mean that they don't have a right to resent what they see as oppression.
6
Really? I know plenty of Catalan guys called Pere (Peter, in Catalan), or Jordi, Josep, Lluis, Ricard ...
6
Assuming your Denver is the one in Colorado, then your state isn't anymore deep blue than mine, Minnesota, though as in Colorado, a lot of people in it want to think it is. You expect me to believe there aren't a whole lot of people in Colorado that don't like their guns, too?
No, this country is a lot more complicated than that. And what would happen if some states violate the constitution, somehow secede and create a Swiss cheese U.S. with islands of disaffected "countries"
whose own populations are actually heavily divided on the question of their "independence"? Too much to mention in this short space.
4
Yes, under Franco it was illegal to register children (i.e. birth certificates) with Catalan names, up into the 70s. That ended after Franco died.
2
Popular Party has no vote in Catalan Republic and by using the force and supposed Law is taking control over that Autonomy. They will face the courage and strength of Catalans who will defend their right to self determination.
Secession is not written in the Spanish Constitution and thus the only way to be independent was this.
1
Article 155 is approved by three major parties--socialists, liberals and conservatives that amount to 70% of the Spanish voters, 40% of the voters in Catalonia. Likewise, the EU, major allies and the business community will support the recovery of constitutional democracy. This is the bad theater of victimization.
5
Not surprising to see the readers, who speaks the dominant language, being against a nation who wants to protect its culture and its language. I fully understand people of Catalogne, as I understand Quebecois wanting to do their own country, to protect the language they write in, the language they grew up with, the language they love to speak and hear and read. No any english speaker can understand this, can understand how painful it is to see a nation trying to erase or diminish a specific culture of one to its region, like US did in Louisiana to make French totally disappear, like Canada tried to do in Quebec at some point (not anymore though, and I really believe Canada had been the smartest at handling their separatist movement, by giving Quebec lots of autonomy and freedom. This is the way to go.).
Spain has a long history of colonialism and fascism (under Franco) and it's not surprising that they will shut down this popular movement with army (and blood probably). Nothing to be excited about. Sad.
3
Catalans have controlled their educational system for more than 40 years. Schools, colleges, TV ... are all in Catalan.
16
" to make French totally disappear, like Canada tried to do in Quebec"
Exactly when was this? Quebec is politically powerful in Canada, both because of its size and because in a large majority of elections, it votes for the winning side. It is actually the opposite; English has been suppressed to the extent practicable. Google "Bill 101".
1
Democracy and Spanish simply do not go together. This is equally true in every country in Latin America, too -- all incapable of running functioning democratic government over a sustained period. Probably a Catholic atavism of dogmatic thinking which discourages precious talents of compromise and dialogue with all social strata of a nation.
Sorry but if most who would vote "no" did not vote, that is their problem and you cannot say "they don't know the opinion of the people". A government cannot know an opinion without hearing it.
Catalans have spoken loud and clear: they want Catalonia to be recognized as nation in its own right, as a republic, independent from the Kingdom of Spain. Most Catalan mayors, elected by the people, want independence, most parliament members, elected by the people, want independence, the president of Catalonia, elected by the people, wants independence, Catalans who defied the violence and brutality visited upon them by Spain's paramilitary forces want independence. And they still confiscated over 700, 000 votes which could not be counted. I wish Catalonia the best. They have done everything without violence and following all the democratic procedures. Spain says Catalonia is Spain and they will never release it, regardless of what Catalans want. That will lead nowhere. Catalans deserve support from everyone who is on the side of justice.
3
Fancy that of all stateless people, the Catalan got their independence with the least spilling of blood -- so far.
It's hard to get support from people who so clearly know little or nothing of our history and the reasons to be independent, in this way. The only possible after trying nice over and over to no effect.
Most catalans know a thoroughly biased version of their own history. External observers maybe have a more truthful one.
On the other side, everybody, including catalans, knows the main reasons for Catalonia's independence: money, wealth and greed. (And as a cover-up for widespread corruption).
5
I kind of like this idea of secession. I propose that all us states along the East and West Coast (the blue states) vote to secede and join Canada. We'd get a progressive rational sane government, Canada would get some really cool cities and some beaches it could actually use, and the rest of the U.S. could form whatever kind of flag-waiving, gun-toting, bible thumping nation it wanted.
13
the grass looks greener the other side dear ............
It should be the right of people to secede from a larger country. Of course it is going to be illegal to secede. So those who are saying it is not legal, for US to break away from UK was not legal either. Secondly, no one needs to be oppressed to get the right to secede. In any case this does not affect the US. Just more turmoil in the world.
3
Ben, here’s a tip. The U.S. didn’t “ break away from the UK...” Back then, there was no U.S... There was no UK... The colonies rebelled against the English crown and formed the United States... Furthermore, the question of the right of states to secede from the Union was resolved in this Republic of ours by force of arms over 150 years ago. The sececessionists lost. My god, is American History no longer a required course of study in our schools?
6
I take no position one way or the other on Catalonia, but I do note the hypocrisy of most of the commenters when it comes to independence. Most of the arguments made here--about illegal votes, violation of laws, etc.--could be said about the American Revolution as well. I hope the founding fathers of the Catalonian Revolution are as wise and even-tempered as our founding fathers. But since most politicians today are not, I am concerned the Catalonians are just trading one form of bad government for another.
3
The American Revolution was about taxation without representation under tyranny; Catalonia has both representation and autonomy. It is hardly a beleaguered colony.
11
Spain has a relatively recent history of civil war. Call me concerned. Things could spiral out of control as both sides harden their positions. It seems unlikely, but we live in extraordinarily unstable times.
3
I have Catalan family who live in Barcelona, and they describe the desire for independence as emanating from the inability to implement more socially progressive policies than would we supported in the rest of Spain. I haven't gotten into it with them because I am so uncomfortable with nationalism in general given the political climate in the United States and having witnessed what happened in Charlottesville; I've got close ties there too. I'm struck by the disconnect between our domestic coverage of the Catalan independence movement as their not wanting to pay their fair share--that's the sound bite--and my family members' perspectives. I'm certainly not saying their opinions are representative, but the pieces fit together.
3
Emily, with all due respect, having lived among Catalans for years and heard many arguments for independence, never once did I hear the desire for more progressive laws. Spain overall, as well as Catalonia, already has some of the most progressive laws around: social services are comprehensive, abortion is legal and subsidized, gays can marry, disabled accessibility is impressive, diverse cultures are officially embraced, family leave is generous, etc. What I hear is "our language and culture are different, and oppressed (different, yes, oppressed, not nowadays) and "we need to keep our tax dollars at home" (at root, it's always dollars and cents).
9
Few people understand why we want to be independent.
Clamor for the rule of law misses much of our history, and the fact that ULTIMATELY laws are at the service of people, not the other way around. Especially when those under the law do not consider it just, and approaches to change the law in a legal way get rebuffed again and again. No more. It's time.
Wish us luck. If Madrid argument is only force, I have one one word for fellow Catalans: G-A-N-D-H-I.
4
Gandhi represented an oppressed people that were colonized. Pretty similar to the North American states that were colonized by the British.
Cataluña has always been a part of Spain, never a colony and never annexed.
How dare you use Gandhi for your false cause
6
Catalonia —where I lived for years — has been a prosperous, highly successful region in a highly functional country — all of that now imperiled by a reckless, divisive and egotistical action.
Catalonia's opportunistic, populist leaders have brainwashed its ethnic base with a victim narrative that is highly overblown. They're some of the most wealthy, privileged people on Earth, with a flourishing language and culture that is in no way oppressed, and they want to keep all of their taxes for themselves, increasing both ethnic divisions and economic inequality in Europe.
Catalan pols paint a rosy, totally unrealistic portrait of themselves as another Luxembourg, joining the EU (existing members like Spain will never, ever allow this).
Fragmenting Europe along ancient ethnic lines runs contrary to the entire postwar spirit of integration and threatens the stability of middle-class societies built around broad distributions of wealth.
And thoughtful people realize that even if they make more money and consequently pay more taxes, they probably also benefit, in less black-and-white ways, from being part of a greater whole.
Already, Barcelona's many, many non-ethnic-Catalan expats are watching their businesses tank, their offices close, their neighbors become more militant, and other heartbreaking fallout of a reckless populism imposed on people who, by and large, are content to be part of Spain.
26
Can we do this same thing with California, Oregon, and Washington? We also pay more taxes than we get in return. We also have cultural differences. #WestExit
3
Of course they can and should. And they will be joined by New England New York New Jersey and Minnesota .
1
Richard, my american friend, would have been very happy to see how Catalonia has declared independence (at last) from Spain. You, americans, did the same from UK 250 years ago. In Europe there are a lot of places with four nations sharing the same geographical space: Switzerland has 4 nations (and languages) with equal rights; Turkey has 4 nations but one imposes its interests (and language) over the others; Scandinavia has 4 independent countries. Spain has chosen the turkish way; Catalonia, the scandinavian one. We will be good friends...
2
The Northern American States were colonized by the British. When were you Catalans colonized? You were part of the kingdom of Aragon. Aragon joined the kingdom of Castille in 1469 to form present day Spain.
7
1. 300 companies have already moved their headquarters out of Cataluña.
2. An independent Cataluña would never be admitted to the European Union.
3. An independent Cataluña would have to stop using the Euro immediately.
4. The quality of universities would decline rapidly, as only Catalan speakers would be permitted to teach. The academic selection pool would be drastically dry.
5. Andorra wants no part of this, though its official language is Catalan.
6. French Catalogne wants no part of this.
7. La Comunidad Valenciana wants no part of this, even though a dialect of Catalan is spoken by many there.
8. The nationalist drive for independence is inherently racist and culturalist.
9. Barcelona is, and has always been, a bilingual and multicultural city.
10. A large percentage of separatists are fascists in disguise.
26
The number of companies which have moved headquaters out of Catalunya since october firsth now stand at 1700, according to El Pais.
5
Yitzhak, 1700 companies have moved out since October 1st... It is a disaster for the region, sheer stupidity.
A number of spurious (8), undocumented (6) or silly claims (5 ): where to begin?
I do support Catalan Republic. The Constitution does not allow slef determination and it was about time that Catalan people got their freedom form PP Spanish controlled and corrupted party.
All those Countries declaring that they do not recognize Catalan Republic are just ignorant of history of accomplices of silencing Catalan culture and identity
Visca Catalunya Lliure
3
Ignorant of history? Pray tell us your history. When were you ever a kingdom or a country? Cataluña was part of the kingdom of Aragon. Aragon joined the kingdom of Castille in 1469 to form present day Spain
8
The EU will not recognize Catalonia independence......unlike Kosovo. Also unlikely US/NATO will bomb Madrid as we did Belgrade.
The Catalonians lack the willpower to secede. Secession doesn't happen through referendums, constitutional processes, or peaceful protest: claiming an independence you feel you deserve can only be accomplished through fighting, killing and dying. Until the Catalonians are willing to put some physical flesh in the game, they'll deal with what they view as "oppression" by the central government.
Nobody gives it to you, you have to take it, and the Catalonians are too squeamish to shed blood for their beliefs.
2
Only people my age will remember when Generalissimo Francisco Franco, the grand author of 20th Century European Fascism, ran Spain with an Iron Fist after the Republicans were defeated in Civil War made famous in Ernest Hemingway's "For Whom The Bell Tolls".
Before Franco's death in the late 20th century, he got the Hapsburgs to dig up a last surviving scion of the Royal Family of Spain, and they found young Phillip. Upon Franco's death, Phillip became the revived Monarch in Spain.
BTW Concentration Camps used by Spain back to the 19th century was one of the reasons we went to South America in 1898 and created a Spanish American War.
Spain was the first Fascist government in Europe, followed by Italy and then Germany. Spain was an ally of Adolf Hitler's, and that's how they run their country, as the original fascist nation.
3
This comment distills so much ignorance (the King of Spain after Franco was Juan Carlos, not Philip, for starters), that one actually feels some relief to be on the other side of the debate. Way on the other side.
3
you may not have heard the news that Franco is dead and has been for a long time.
6
What matter, son of Juan Carlos, and hence a Phillip; all pursuant to Franco's Fascist plan, kind sir. Forgive my failiung to note one appointed monarch from another, following a military dictatorship. My apologies to Juan Carlos.
1
"as he immediately faced a revolt in his own ranks from secessionist die-hards who called him a traitor. After hours of wavering on Thursday, he relented and threw the decision on independence to Catalan lawmakers, who took the fateful plunge on Friday."
What kind of leader is this guy Puigdemont? He should choose the best path for the people of Catalonia (pro or anti independence), not the path favored by the party! Behold of another false prophet who makes grand promises but does not know whether he can deliver. What a sham.
7
I am from Massachusetts. Go Catalans!
Then maybe Mass, Cal, Ore, Wash, Vermont, Ct, RI, NY, NJ, Minn will have the courage to exit
2
Nothing more pathetic than separatists agitating their populist and demagogic agenda. All what they have managed to do was to divide Catalonia, going on with their nonsense while the majority of Catalonia boycotted them, have tens of companies HQ running away all while ruining what was their region broad autonomy.
8
Your sentence, "Fueled by a distinct language and culture and economic grievances", is outrageously misleading and simply false. Please correct immediately.
It is fine if you support this movement for whatever reason. However, please do not write inaccurate information.
Cataluña is the richest region in Spain.
Data: https://www.datosmacro.com/pib/espana-comunidades-autonomas
Not paying taxes to poorer regions of Spain is a big part of the independence movement. It is no secret. It is openly stated.
Information: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/nov/20/catalonia-tax-burden-indep...
8
And hey, what's with taking Puerto Rico's flag, alternating the red and white bars, and coloring in the white stripes as yellow, then calling it a flag? Has nobody in Catalonia ever studied graphic design? If they can't come up with a nice flag, without plagiarism, then forget it, no independence for them.
5
Funny... :)
Shame on Western Europe and the United States for not supporting the right of the Catalonians to self-determination, the basis of our own independence movement and founding of our country. Shame.
5
For people asking themselves the question: why the Catalonian mess, now? here is the answer.
Dimitri Medoyev, from South Ossetia, arrives in Barcelona for meetings with business figures
https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/26/inenglish/1509011964_600939.html
Putin sent yesterday an envoy to Catalonia with words of encouragement and brown envelopes full of cash.
4
Sure he did....
Similarly, we cannot support Kurdish independence, funded and advocated by neoconservatives like Senators Ted Cruz and Bibi Netanyahu.
Today, Catalonia. Tomorrow California.
1
The USA and NATO should go in and crush the terrorists and steal all their valuable property, like they do in third world countries and like they did in Yugoslavia. Next they can go after the pesky and rich Basque and the equally annoying Occitans. What gave these people the right to think they could rule themselves in a world where only the Best People can rule.
1
The headline is incorrect. To secede from a body politic, a member must first have acceded to it. Catalonia is a province which, except for a brief period as a nominal republic under French protection, has never been independent. Its attachment to the Kingdom of Spain was not voluntary, and its separation from that kingdom is a revolt, not a secession.
3
I hasten to add that calling it a revolt is not necessarily an expression of disapproval. The United States revolted against the British Empire once upon a time.
1
Elections, true ones, not the putsch that the ultra nationalists did on October the first, have been called for the 21 December. Let us see how the so called catalan democrats will react, but my guess is that they won't be very happy to see that the people have a real chance to express their will
2
A few weeks ago I had an argument with a guy in the comments section of a YouTube video about the how the Spanish Caribbean colonies broke away from Spain. This guy with a profile picture depicting a Catalunian flag had the nerve to comment "those colonies a the rightful ownership of Spain and should be returned", to which I replied: "At least Cuba and DR had the courage that Catalunia doesn't have to fight for their independence, something you catalunians never had the nerve to do, after all, you've been a Spanish colony for so long that you don't even realize it.
2
No comprendo. They are making the independence movement stronger each time they act this way. Unnecessary panic.
3
I feel that Puidgemont has been reckless. His mandate is weak.
I have experienced two such referendums here in Quebec . It appears that many
Catalonians have a deep attachment to both Spain and Catalonia.Puidgemont has only created confusion and division.
Two referendums on separation have been enough for us. A third one is not even close to being on the table.
Please citizens of your wonderful country and region ,work this out before things get even worse.
7
It would have been nice if there had been some context or background given in the story as to what the history is here and why Catalonian's feel they're not part of Spain...
5
You're asking too much Jimmy. The authors are in cahoots with the Catalan secessionists. The only history they know is what they've invented.
2
The Catalans seem to want to shut their region off to everyone but Catalans. It's like Brexit but even more provincial and isolationist. Catalonia has never been an independent country. Whatever nationalistic and ethnic purity kick they are on is very destructive. It seems like a totally emotional and irrational movement. The EU will not recognize them as an independent country and their business and family ties with the rest of their country will be severed. What is the point?
5
It's very sad to admit this, but I totally don't care. Nobody is being gunned down in the streets, nobody is being forced into exile. Catalonia has belonged to the Kingdom of Spain since about the fifteenth century. Seems like Catalonians made the mistake of thinking they were in a real democracy, and they just found out that no, they're not.
Compared to Syria, Turkey, Egypt, Venezuela, Myanmar, Somalia, Sudan, and all the other atrocious places in the world where dictatorships, theocracies, or anarchies are committing abominable war crimes continuously, this just isn't a big deal. Spain and Catalonia can work this out, or not, and it just doesn't matter to me either way.
7
Thank you so much for letting us know that you don't care.
5
You're quite welcome Holmes, and really the underlying message is, this is silly and pointless.
2
Not quite sure it's silly or pointless, but it's refreshing when someone refrains from taking sides when not completely informed and concentrates on more horrific injustices.
Ultimately Puigmont didn't really have the support of the majority of Catalonians even by his own measure. The referendum results of October 01 showed only support from 37 % of Catalonians at best. It's not enough support to break up a Democratic country and force 7.5 million people to get a new passport and leave Spain and the EU. But here it is, he has declared independence unilaterally. It is an illegitimate act and Spain will is justified to intervene with article 155. This is an outcome that no one in Spain wished for.
12
I support democracy, and I support the democratic right to self-determination. However, this was not exactly democratic. There is blame to lay on both sides (the police shouldn't have handled the vote the way they did), but the way this whole thing was carried out completely undermines its legitimacy. Scotland had a vote a few years ago that was supported by the UK and the Scottish government. It was peacefully done, and civilly discussed. There was high voter participation, and the results were legitimate. If the same had been done here, Catalonia would not be in this situation.
I understand secession if the alternative is tyranny, but Spain is not a tyrannical country. I agree with some other posters here: this doesn't seem to be about liberty over tyranny, human rights and stability over abuses and instability; this seems to be about an identity and rich people not wanting to pay their fare share of taxes. What a stupid reason to rip a country apart.
7
The way a cab driver explained it to me in Barcelona, this is about Catalonia being the wealthiest region in Spain, with a vibrant economy, and then contrast that with the rest of Spain where the economy is in the dumps. It’s not that they don’t want to pay taxes, it’s just that they feel they’re subsidizing the rest of the country . Add to that a strong cultural identity with their own language and customs, and there you have it.
A commenter compared it to hellholes like Syria and Sudan. Completely different countries and situations of course, but the breakup of sapin would be bad for Europe as other minorities are sure to follow suit, and that would be the end of the EU.
I myself am from Brittany, a part of France where we have our own language and customs ( we became part of France in 1491), and in the seventies we had an active separatist movement. There isn’t much appetite left for that now, but in regions like Scotland and other EU countries, the danger is there.
2
Well. Maybe they would prefer a system like that of the US, where, as a percentage of their income, rich people pay hardly any taxes at all, and the working people do. And then those who do pay the taxes are told they should be grateful that the rich created all these jobs for them so they can pay their taxes.
1
I don't know what the answer is to this problem. But it is easy to see that Madrid's heavy handed response is only making it worse. Tearing countries apart across ethnic lines seems foolish but force or even the threat of force is no answer.
5
Dear writer of the article, I would like to comment on this: "Lawmakers opposed to independence walked out of the chamber in protest before the vote".
Opposed to independence lawmakers left the chamber because the Spanish law, and so explained Catalonian parliament's lawyers, the voting was illegal (as all the process, starting September 6th when Catalonian representatives did break their own laws to approve the Independent Plan "because otherwise it couldn't be done" (http://www.lasexta.com/programas/salvados/mejores-momentos/el-dardo-de-j...
Thanks for reading!
First Brexit, then Trump. And now Catalonian independence. Who stands to gain the most from these paradigm-shifting events which are transforming our complacent vision of Western democracy at such an alarming rate?
All three events are obviously linked to the Eternal Eastern Enemy who simply dresses in nicer ties and suits since that certain year in 1991.... only fools believed that the Cold War was ever really won or declared over !
1
Dan Brown strikes again! AE is the entertainment channel.
Your naivety amuses me. So you accept the lie that the Russian Federation is a reliable and indispensable partner in international relations ? If so, THAT's entertaining, in a scary way, I might add.
I think all three events are linked to rejection of the globalist state that has been set up since about 1990, whereby free trade would lead to the export of jobs from developed nations. Putin has his job and keeps it (and will keep it next year) because he acts in the self-interest of Russians, who see what is going on in the rest of the world and would rather suffer sanctions and a poor economy than elect some exciting young leader who would take Russia down the same path as the West.
Apparently Spain has yet to fully "embrace democracy" since 1978.
2
It seems like nobody wants to allow parts of their country to break off. Iraq, Syria, and Turkey definitely don't want any part of an independent Kurdistan, and Spain won't allow a Catalan republic to exist. What's going to happen when Scotland votes to leave Britain?
1
The rosy future pro-independence Catalans are
claiming is misleading. EU won't recognize and
admit Catalunia. Many businesses preferring to do
business in EU market will flee the region jeopardizing
the prosperity. It is not clear what oppression they are
referring to. It seems to be imaginery.
3
Several commenters ask why a portion of Catalonians want to secede, and it's a fair question. I recently spoke with a rabid secessionist in Barcelona, and he said it's about "taking back their culture" after it was robbed from them in the twentieth century by a fascist leader. But it's 2017 and the region is enjoying more freedom, financial and personal, than ever, so I, like many commenters, remain perplexed. The Podemos party, which promotes a united Spain while celebrating the different languages and cultures within the country, would be a far saner way to proceed.
3
This is not about a repressed people trying to set themselves free. It's greed disguised as nationalism. it's about money. If Catalonia were poor or not as prosperous, secession wouldn't be remotely an option.
Catalans supporting independence have more similarities to your Brexiteers and America First Trumpists than they might think.
The silly & ironic part about countries/regions deciding to "go at it alone" it that the decision only makes sense if everyone else stays "united."
Of course the Catalonia wants to go a it alone because they think they can still strike a deal with the EU. They don't have to do that with each individual nation like the old days. They get to keep their taxes and not share. They get the best of both worlds.
Pushing this further, what prevents any rich city, neighborhood, or state from splitting from its county, city, or country?
Let's go back to living in tribes & lordships...
93
What a disingenuous and weak comparison. If anything, Catalonia is comparable to California. A bunch of rich socialists wielding their influence and power to damage the middle class because of some sense of 'elitism' to their fellow country men. Having a sense of national pride, placing the interests of your countrymen over foreigners, and wanting sovereignty from rootless, non-elected global bureaucracies could not be more different than the disdain Catalans feel for what they theorize to be the national identity of Spain, and the disdain places like NYC and California feel for 'fly-over' country.
1
A big difference between pro-independence people in Catalonia and Brexiters / America First Trumpists is that the former do not want to kick anyone out of their country. They're not saying "Spanish-speakers leave our land", "Foreign-born residents go away", etc. In fact, they're saying the opposite: "We need everyone. Everyone is important to our success." Also, mainstream Catalonia is inclusive and so is the pro-independence movement. In Catalonia the definition of a Catalan is: "Anyone who lives and works in Catalonia and who who considers himself or herself to be Catalan." It doesn't matter if you're from Morocco, Gambia or Madrid. If you consider yourself Catalan, nobody in Catalonia can say you're not, even if you don't speak Catalan.
1
A very sad, sad day indeed for all the Spaniards who respect law. Our Constitution can not be crused in this way. Fortunately, the Spanish Government has taken action. Let's hope the best for the outcome of this stressing situation.
5
Congratulations Catalonia! And good luck in your journeys ahead, ending, as it must, with full recognition by the EU, and firmly seated as member.
Lots of silent admirers, and also insignificant vocal ones, like this commenter are rooting for you. The good news starts when the silent one become vocal, starting with Scotland, the U.K., Poland, and Greece. And the vocal ones, like Rajoy and Tusk become insignificant. Be strong, be brave, safe journeys, and see you soon in Brussels! Ciao.
8
It seems I get to echo Serban's remarks below. Coincidentally I was at a nearby auto parts store here in s.w. San Francisco and was helped by a new guy, a recent immigrant to the USA from the Basque region of Spain. That's the n.w. corner of the Spain that the Spanish gov't would say mounted a lot of what we would call terrorist attacks on "Spain" in the past. Basques and "central Spain(?)" reconciled those differences recently. The auto parts store new guy said Spain's objection to Catalonia's secession vote is economic. Catalonia is the richest, most prosperous region in Spain. So without Catalonia's taxes, Spain's "economists," such as they may be, would not be able to "keep the poor elsewhere in Spain pacified." (my inference) He also said Spain had not been that "democratic" since the Franco fascist dictatorship he started in 1939 "collapsed" (or changed hands) when Franco died in 1975 and Prince Juan Carlos became King. He didn't tell me all that; I looked it up. See Wikipedia 'francoist spain' for more details.
3
Ask your Basque guy to go to France, see how many rights Basque French have because of being Basques, and then ask him to compare with Spain. But, anyway, Spain is Francoist... OK.
4
You may want to find better sources of information than your auto parts helper. The problem is not that Spain wants to keep the Catalonia to get taxes. The problem is that some people in Catalonia do not want to pay their fair share of the cost of goverment and have created the illusion that all the problems created by local corruption and a deep worldwide recession are the central government's fault. A separatist minority wants to take over power without having the support of the Calalan people.
Spain has been a been a full democracy since 1978. Saying that Spain is not a democracy because Franco was in power many years ago, is equivalent to saying that Germany is not a democracy because Hitler was in power many years ago. I am sure you can also find something in Wikipedia about Nazis in Germany.
3
As a mental exercise - the moment they become gain Independence and become their own country and technically not being recognize as part of the EU or the UN or any international body, wouldn't they be opened to be invaded? and reconquered by Spain?
This seems to be an almost perfect parallel to what is happening between Iraq and Kurdistan (- the oil).
1
it reminds me of Quebec versus Canada back in the 1960's.
1
There is no "oppression" in Catalonia. That is propaganda. Absolutely everything was under their control except sovereignty. No matter how much autonomy they have, they are never going to be happy. They should have waited to negotiate with a better government than Rajoy instead of starting this mess. Now everybody in Spain has to suffer. You can see that the things the separatists are saying are not cool-headed, peaceful things. I have no sympathy for Rajoy, but I don't have any sympathy for Catalans at this time, either.
10
Totally, there is oppression of the Catalans that speak Castilian Spanish, and racial oppression, they call them pejoratively "charnegos", or "xarnegos", they are not the "pure", superior Catalans. That needs to change, it is an affront to Europe in the XXI century. The supremacist make Catalans that speak Spanish feel dirty and inferior. Now they will pay for their abuses. Not only Europe, South America is also strongly against this small band of Catalan supremacists.
3
at least Catalonia has the guts to actually go to the mat on separation; vote to go. in canada, Quebec never did. They rattled their sabres and then folded their hands.
a victory for putin, who very much wants to see the anchors of the european union like spain, italy, and britain break up . . . he also has his sight set on lombardy and veneto in italy and scotland in britain . . . i suspect in the longer term, he's also looking at parts of france, like brittany . . . of course, in the even longer term, this tool of promoting secession may come back to bite him and russia, as few countries in europe or asia purport to enclose as many varied ethnicities, nationalities, and language groups as the former soviet union . . .
4
Does democracy require oppression to be legitimate? Surely it is only the will of the people that matters. I amazed that so many readers dismiss the desire of Catalunyans for self-determination on the basis of a perceived lack of oppression and its comparative wealth.
5
Would you feel the same if Florida or Texas, or maybe the Northeast regions, voted to secede from the US? Pick any political entity . .
2
The interesting fact is that Catalan separatists falsely claim that Catalonia is oppressed. They do feel the need to say that they are oppressed to hide the fact that there is not a majority of the Catalan people in favor of independence. Except for Canada and the UK, I don't believe there is any western democracy that recognizes the right of their regions or states to self-determination.
3
This is all really horrible news for Catalonia, for Spain, and for the EU. Why was this necessary? Catalonia is a prosperous region within Spain and EU. Everything is fine. There is no need for independence. And scant support for it. Puigdemont has far less support in Catalan Parliament for independence than Rajoy has in Spanish Senate against it. The referendum showed 90% people in favor, from 40% of the population that showed up. Support in parliament is 72/135. Rajoy has 214/261... The EU is against the independence. Businesses, capital is fleeing. By any rational yardstick so far this was a disastrous move for Catalonia. The only thing Puigdemont has going for him is the possibility of Spanish violent crackdown, and millions of videos documenting the tragedy on the internet, swaying the global public opinion against Spain. I think Puigdemont may be making the same mistake Izetbegovic did in Bosnia with the referendum and secession. He does not have 90% of Catalun citizens behind the idea, but more like 50%, which means he is not only dividing Catalonia from Spain, but also Catalonia within itself. I kind of hope Spain is a civilized European country and Rajoy will not act like Milosevic. I think all separatist lawmakers should visit Sarajevo, and see how a country divided into two separate entities (mini-countries) struggles economically and politically for 3 decades already, because that may be the unintended consequence of their resolution: a divided Catalonia.
5
The Spanish Senate is controlled by the Popular Party because no one believes in that Organ anymore that is being in queue to be dismissed... in the Congress Rajoy has no majority... luck for him the 155 could be authorized by the Senate and not the Congress... form the very beginning he knew anything he would proposed would win. He can propose to paint Catalans faces in red and that will pass as well...
70 out of 135 Catalan representatives voted for independence. With a very slim majority of 52% the current government precipitated a constitutional crises holding hostage close to half the electorate in Catalonia. Whatever the grievances, this appears a highly irresponsible action.
5
There is a slim separatist majority in the Catalan Parliament and that majority was achieved a minority of the voters. The Catalan electoral laws overweight the representation of rural areas where separatist parties are stronger than in a large city like Barcelona.
4
Forcing power and rule over populations that don't want it--that always works out so nicely.
4
You surely mean by Puigdemont on half of the Catalan population, right?
4
Neither does 50% of a population forcing dramatic changes on an unwilling other 50% of the population.
2
The government in Madrid has handled this badly. If the referendum was truly illegal, then the government should have just allowed the illegal vote and ignored the results, not tried to suppress it. Moreover, in the illegal referendum, only about a third of potential Catalan voters voted for independence, and in the Catalan parliament, only about half of parliamentarians voted for secession. There is no clear majority of the Catalan people in support of independence.
It irks me that the Catalans are claiming to be an oppressed people. That ignores the real oppression and brutality that is happening elsewhere in the world to people like the Rohingyas. At worst, the Catalans have First World problems: they don't like that some of their taxes are being sent to poorer regions of Spain. That happens in most developed countries, like blue states in the U.S. seeing some of their taxes go to red states, or within the EU with richer countries like Germany transferring funds to poorer countries like Spain itself. That's part of the cost of living in a just and peaceful society, that richer neighbors help out poorer ones.
The real problem here? Catalunya's leaders have been playing up people's grievances for decades and leading them down this dark path.
8
The constitution that Spain is defending is a young one, less than 40 years old. It was the country’s first attempt at democracy following a 46-year dictatorship that was especially devastating in Catalonia, where the Catalan language and culture were prohibited following the Spanish Civil War in which tens of thousands of Catalans were killed (and even more imprisoned) by Franco’s regime.
Constitutions can change. It happened in the U.S. and I believe now is the time for it to happen in Spain too. Catalans have been trying since 2006, legally and peacefully, to work with Spain, whose leaders refuse to negotiate. If Spain’s only solution is “direct rule,” without any discussion, all the more reason to re-evaluate the country’s current state of democracy.
“When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth...”
Today, I applaud the Catalan people for taking matters into their own hands and wish them all the best with the new republic.
5
So, next step is leaving texan people vote for their own independency, isn't it?
3
That's exactly what I think. Thanks, Adina L.
2
The idea that the Franco dictatorship was especially devastating in Catalonia is a myth. All Spain suffered the consequences. People were killed in all parts of Spain. There were also Franco's supporters an enablers in all regions, including Catalonia.
Having a young constitution and failing to achieve your political goals for the last 12 years, does not justify ignoring the legal framework that require qualified majorities for constitutional changes.
38
The Spanish government wasn't proactive. They should have gone ahead of this whole thing by suspending the autonomy of Catalonia. An earlier move by Catalonia was declared illegal by the court. I kept hearing "Spain to suspend Catalonia's leaders", "Spain to grab Catalonia's powers." Only for them to do so just after Catalonia's parliament declared independence. Nevertheless, i don't think the declaration of independence by the Catalonian parliament does much.
1
This is so sad.
I have lived in Spain for more than 20 years, and I know the country well. The oppression that independentists claim is false. In fact, Catalonia has enjoyed even more liberties than one could find in most developed democratic countries (and I have lived in a few of them throughout my life). And basic human rights have never been abused or violated in the region
9
Go back and watch the police beating up old ladies for voting. Then tell me the oppression is false.
1
And go back and watch how the police beat and abused black civil rights leaders back in the 60's. And despite that, African Americans have continued to love and defend their country.
1
The “Catalonia affair” is pictured as a conflict between Catalonia and Spain. That’s not true. It is a conflict between about half the Catalan people and the other half. The Catalan Government and several government-sponsored radical organizations have dug a deep trench in the Catalan society. Recent history in Europe and elsewhere shows that such trenches are the seed for violent civil confrontation and disintegration of society. I hope we will be wise enough to stop before falling in the abysm but common sense it is not granted.
9
This is very strange. We Europeans have been told that the EU is "...a Europe of regions...". Now we see that some European states see this very differently.
In theory any split within a member state of the EU should be without consequence for the nation involved or the EU as a whole. The breakaway region would simply join the EU as a new member. The Schengen accord would guarantee free travel and work "abroad" and the other EU regulations would prohibit taxes etc. from being imposed. Even the passports of the new "nation" wouldn't be so different since EU passports are very similar to each other - for good reasons. And the money (notes, coins) is no issue either, we have the Euro all over the place. It makes no sense and no difference.
I therefor have to conclude that someone in Spain has a problem with his/her ego, and I can only assume it's the king of Spain. I firmly believe that "king-free" Germany would act much calmer if - let's say - Bavaria would like to break away (while honoring the EU rules). I really don't get this Catalan thing, I can only fervently hope that there will be no violence. A civil war in a member state is the very last thing the EU needs.
I therefor call upon my Chancellor Angela Merkel to sort this out and stat. If anyone can she does. We call her "Mutti" (mother) for a reason...
4
You don't have any idea at all. Spanish King has not any executive power. He is just an international ambassador. Be sure that things in Germany would go the same way than here in Spain. You can even do it worse...remember
6
Of course, as with everything in life, it all boils down to money. Catalonia feels it pays more to Madrid in taxes then it gets back in services — just as many Scots did during the oil boom; as Flemings feel about Walloons in Belgium; as prosperous Downstate New York City & environs feels about depressed Upstate; and on to every country, region, city, precinct and street corner.
4
Do the Catalonia separatists believe they are going to rule peacefully with a bare majority in their congress and in the populace. I don't think so. Declaring independence with the support of 50% plus one vote is a prescription for disaster. On the other hand, being born and raised in California, I would love to support its independence. Peacefully.
4
Lot of countries has some kind of secessionist problem - some boiling over and others long simmering. Catalonia will be on their own as no country one will come to help for fear of encouraging such in their own home.
1
Both Spain and Italy have been, for all their supposed unification, more conceptual than actual states. Galaxies, for example, has more in common with Brittany and Wales than Spain, but the same could be said of the subsets of most nations. When are the individual cultures more important? When the greater state? It's a matter of time and place...
An independent Catalonia is a clear and present danger not only to Spain's unity but, very importantly, to the EU. Every European country has independent movements dating back to the Middle Ages. An independent Catalonia signals the beginning of European disintegration.
5
The declaration of independence by Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont was reckless, given a low turnout of only 43% of the Catalan population, the yes votes (92%) could hardly speak for the rest of Catalonia. The pro-independence Catalans need a dialogue with Madrid urgently. They need to understand that they don't have the backing of the other 53% Catalans to break away.
Now the Spanish government under Mariano Rajoy is seeking to salvage the crisis, by dissolving the Catalan parliament and calling for new regional elections, letting all Catalan voters to decide whether they still want to stick to Puigdemont. It is important for Madrid to remain calm and refrain from resorting to violence. It also remains to be seen how the pro-independence voters react to Rajoy's imposition of direct rule on them.
11
One does wonder if the Spanish Government had found a way to stonewall, giving the silent anti-secessionists in Catalunya time to voice their opposition and demand a new referendum, a costly and possibly deadly confrontation could have been avoided.
This reminds me of some past Irish support in the US for the Irish Republican Army which was based on a desire for revenge for very real past wrongs, but which just fed more bloodshed. The trick is to hold on to the good parts of your tribal identity but recognize that sentiments do not always reflect today's reality. In 2017, the Catalans had maintained and were in control of a distinct culture, in no danger of being suppressed - other than by the influx of foreign visitors.
4
Think about it. The wealthiest part of Spain doesn't want to pay taxes so, thanks to Steve Bannon and other International Mafia Robber Barons, they want to "secede".
Good Job, Mr. Rajoy and Congress, for not allowing it.
The International Mafia Robber Barons love chaos and fear-anger-hate - that is how they gain power. They steal from you and then, like The Con Don try to convince you that "only they can protect you - for a price.
Nice work if they can get it. WE THE PEOPLE - average people around the world - must stop them NOW!
16
Did you read the article? This has nothing to do with American politics. It is a longstanding issue in Spain.
The article stated: Fueled by a distinct language and culture and economic grievances, aspirations for a separate state have percolated for generations before boiling over this month to confront Spain with perhaps its worst constitutional crisis since it embraced democracy in 1978.
5
It's not comparable at all to Steve Bannon. (Who by the way isn't a robber baron, though he is odious).
Catalonia has been a regional ethnicity for centuries, with their language banned during most of the 20th Century. They speak a language as different from Spanish as Italian, Portuguese or French. Not at all the same as Steve Bannon and Trump.
2
In njglea's "House of Mirrors" the progressive, socially conscious leaders of Catalunya's Independence and the Catalunyan people in the street are the "Mafia Robber Barons" and tools of Steve Bannon. Not only that, the hard right Conservatives led by Mr. Rajoy, seemingly following the bloody footsteps of Francisco Franco and the fascists who ruled Spain for decades, are the "Good Boys" who are standing up to the Robber Barons in Barcelona.
In your "House of Mirrors" :: Proto-fascists with truncheons sent from Madrid are the "good guys" and hundreds of thousands of Catalunyans defiant in non-violent, civil disobedience in favour of their own democratic government, are the "bad guys."
Wow, dude. Just wow!
It's FAKE REALITY!
We see here the triumph of emotion and indoctrination over reason and common sense.
One Spanish frigate parked outside the harbor of Barcelona and the insurance companies will yank their coverage from the cruise lines and the cargo carriers. No more cruise ships, no more export or import by sea.
Then Madrid can close the air space, as Iraq did to Kurdistan, and guess what? No more tourists arriving by air. Supply of electricity is also vulnerable.
The economy of Barcelona will tank, followed by all of Catalonia. Unemployed workers and bankrupt restaurant and shop owners will fill the streets. Banks will leave Catalonia.
Spain does not need to invade. Simple economics will put an end to this.
What folly! What hubris! What stupidity.
40
I agree. It's all about economic measures. But this requires patience. I sincerely hope Rajoy will know to be patient and play the long game.
2
Sort of like what is happening to the United States since the Trump folly. Foreign tourism is tanking -- Great Britain now lists the United States as a danger zone for British tourists-- and foreign enrolment in US universities is in precipitous decline, too. Populism is a universal source of decadence, it's true.
1
If the Spanish govt deliberately closes airspace and essentially tries to destroy their economy in response to what was probably not actually a majority-supported independence move, then Spain WOULD be being oppressive, and they would have justifiable grievances against the Spanish govt. That would be akin to the British govt deciding to blockade Boston because a few radicals dumped tea into Boston Harbor...by blockading Boston, they turned people who everyone thought were idiots into heroes and vastly increased support for American independence. Don't compound one bit of idiocy with another.
Catalonia is not an oppressed country by any stretch of the imagination. It is more prosperous than the rest of Spain and the only argument Catalans can make is that the taxes Catalans pay profit other Spaniards more than them. But that should be true of any country, the more prosperous areas should help the poorer ones. In the US the blue states are subsidizing the red states (not that the red states are particularly conscious of it) and apart from occasional griping the blue states accept it as the price of being part of United States.
77
Funny how you talk about Catalonia as if you lived here.
Taxes aside, people in Catalonia can make many cases:
1. Parliament has been mocked by the Spanish state way too often (specially in the last 10 years).
Why bother creating and passing new laws in Catalonia? They'll get tossed by the Spanish government and constitutional court more often than not.
The Spanish state has become a rejection machine when it comes to Catalonia. Just to be clear, these are laws which only affect Catalonia, not the rest of Spain.
In the US states enjoy a certain degree of independence from the federal government in this regard. I bet there would be trouble if the federal government and the courts were regularly invalidating laws approved by some states, without even opening a proper discussion about it or ever wanting to talk about a constitutional reform in order to tackle certain issues.
Rule by decree in certain areas, that's what the Spanish state is all about (since 1978 and earlier). Remember that Spaniards aren't used to democracy like you people are in the US. 35 years of dictatorship leave a deep mark (besides we never really had lasting democracy before that anyway).
2. Catalan people have been called all sorts of hilarious stuff by Spanish authorities for decades. From thieves to terrorists, take your pick.
3. Nobody, not even Trump can beat PP at lying, denying and twisting facts.
4. PP has beaten all corruption records in Spain, and they still get elected.
(word limit)
2
Not quite sure you understand American democracy and politics, but good try.
1
Subsidizing the red states who are destroying the USA by electing Trump. They can declare victory in the Civil War which officially began 1861 and anded November 2016. Will emigrate rather than subsidize.
1
Apparently Democracy has it's limits. Who'd have thought, the way it was sold? Idealism really ought not to be encumbered by reality. Life is so unfair.
2
It may be time to review the concept of sovereignty!
Give Sovereignty Back to the People! The best way to solve a problem of Sovereignty of a country over
a group of People living and residing in their section that does not
desire that the National Government to continue to be their
Sovereign is for the International Community to take the
Government in question to the International Court of Justice
which was set up to resolve disputes just such as this type of conflict of interest.
Sovereignty can and should be taken away from Governments
that fail to uphold their responsibilities to the people!
The Best way is the High way through the International Court!
Changing the borders to better coincide with the cultural, religious, ethnic and
perhaps also racial differences is also a problem for the International Court of Justice to be helpful in solving.
3
Except, Robert, none of the conditions you mention obtain here. It started as a demand for more money and it morphed into an illusion
16
Hear, hear.
A black day for Catalonia, Spain and the European Union. Catalonia is now a ruptured society, its population broken in half, its legal foundation, founded on the national compromise of 1978 shattered by those who claim to uphold it. The pro-independence block (divided itself) likes to blame the current situation in the actions of the conservative government in Madrid, forgetting that not matter what party would be in power the response would have been the same.
They failed at providing anything for its, but for empty speeches.
22
Kate, my dear, you should come to Catalonia and ask people on the streets about all this.
Independence advocates in Catalonia were far fewer 10 years ago, nobody would've predicted back then that today we'd have such a powerful independence movement in Catalonia (not that I like it, particularly).
Do you know who "ruptured" Catalan society, its legal foundation, the national compromise of 1978, etc.? Partido Popular, their corruption, their blatant lies, their tendency to rule by decree, their backwardness, their incompetence, etc. Problem is that the opposition wasn't there to provide a real alternative, PSOE turned to the right and assumed positions similar to those of PP, that's why they started losing votes en masse to Podemos.
"forgetting that not matter what party would be in power the response would have been the same."
I'm not sure Podemos would've opposed to the celebration of a proper referendum, since, you know, they declared they'd support it, but done properly and with the clear support of the majority of the people.
In any case, if the people in Catalonia want to celebrate a referendum of self-determination (as is their right, according to the Charter of the UN and other declarations and international agreements THAT SPAIN HAS SUBSCRIBED), the political parties in Madrid can't just deny it.
If they do, then we enter the arena of unilateral decisions, which nobody likes (no, not even Catalan independence supporters do).
3
The frustrations that many Catalans have with Spain is no new phenomenon.
That fact alone cannot defend the success of an illegal spurious referendum on secession and therefore Spain's reaction was inevitable. Remember our Civil War.
BUT, that said, the belligerent position and action taken by Spain toward Catalunya can lead to no good outcome as it is essentially a declaration of war. Another civil war in Spain? Who knows, the rise of another Franco, (he who is perhaps the most recent catalyst for this current sepraratist fervor). Bad things happened then and memories are long here.
Before positions harden beyond compromise (not a casual statement in our current world), both parties must sit down at the table and negotiate - otherwise, chaos. Cool heads must prevail.
If you would appreciate more light than heat I Strongly, Deeply, Truly recommend the late Robert Hughes' masterpiece of history and erudition "Barcelona" Alfred Knopf 1992. This is really a comprehensive history of Catalunya written by a clear-eyed highly informed master explicator who loved this country. Please run, don't walk etc etc.
8
According to Spanish Constitution sovereignty resides in Spanish people as a whole, maybe almost the same sentence than American one.
That can be changed and there are rules of how to do it. It is hard, tedious, difficult and can not always can be done. Someone will be frustrated by it, but the first rule of democracy is to be respectful with the different ones.
It is sad to read that people claim to be attacked, who justify this situation by a dictator who thankfully died 40 years ago and because historical facts from more than 3 centuries ago. In fact, even that historical facts are changed just to fit their tale.
Pro-independence people threatened the rights of at least 50% of the population. And when Central Government uses the law to protect the rights of all, then they are said to be belligerent actions.
In recent weeks there was coercion towards those who are not for independence, it is shameful and insulting. I will not fall into the easy resource of comparing it with the 30's in Germany, which I'm sure you have already read. But they are attitudes that should not be tolerated in any modern democracy.
In democracy differences must be resolved through conversations. But always according to the rules of the game, which are those established in the law.
Would you accept that California will vote for independence regardless of the law and that Federal Government will sit idly by? The same situation occurs in Catalonia.
Thanks for reading.
3
What do you mean by 'both parties must sit down'? Which two parties do you refer to?
A.B.L.: I read your comments with pleasure. Thank you.
Your last point about a Californian secession is exactly my point when referring to our (USA) Civil War in the 19th century when the Southern states seceded from the North over, among other things, slavery.
That war was a horrifically bloody one, some consequences of which, 150 years later, are still with us.
Of course in Spain, you only have to go back to the 1930's to recall the devastation.
I have never been to Spain, but I have read the history books. Catalonia has been an integrated part of the Spanish nation since before Europe knew of the New World. It is surprising to see such frustration and feelings of repression in many of the citizens of Catalonia. Such feelings must have arisen from somewhere - perhaps in the attitude towards Catalan culture in the past century. At any rate, it is clear that the escalation of this situation has been mishandled by all governments involved, and is an indication of what happens when raw, unfiltered public opinion is able to dictate policy.
8
Is that the sound of General Franco's tanks we hear rumbling over the hill?
Echoes of the Spanish Civil war play out differently in the 21st century. In today's Globalized Economy, that's the sound of BANKS, not Tanks threatening Catalonia.
12
For what it's worth, Putin's Russia also encouraged the separatist movement in Catalonia as part of its longer-term goal of weakening the EU (Brexit), the US, and NATO.
22
Not a shock...
If your readers in the US need to understand the decision made in Catalonia, just say that a critical mass of people living in Catalonia (native Catalan-speakers, native Spanish-speakers, and foreign-born naturalized citizens of Spain) got fed up with having the Madrid-based politicians and their Catalonia-based acolytes always in their faces. Start treating the people of California with disrespect and see how long they stay with you. In your taxis, tell them they can't talk in a California dialect, like, y'know, totally bogus dude. Boycott their products. Strike down the laws they make. Tell them that they're rich, and smug, and greedy when they protest. And tell them that they're totalitarian and nazis when they vote their way out of the Union. And beat them up. Bomb them every 50 years. I'm sure California would apologize and stay with you after all that.
8
It is my understanding that public documents and education in Catalonia are in Catalan. The Castilians are the ones that cannot speak their language.
5
"Madrid-based politicians (as if they were not an active part in the Spanish parliament)" "Catalonia based Accolytes" (no comment); "Striking down laws (hyperbole, not striking down illegal part of laws)" "Disrespect" (Spain is robbing us; we work, they live on welfare; We can do it better; We tried but they (ie: Spain) are impossible; Save Europe (Since we are Europeans and they are not). Who is disrepectful?) And something about not being able to speak catalan in taxis... (Whatever that is, I honestly do not know what you are talking about)...although it seems that to be more important than Catalan being the only curricular language in prek-12 education, the only language that guarentees you a decent public job, the only one who will take you to be invited when Catalonia is invited to Frankfurt's international Book Fair, and so...Honestly...
4
Please stop telling lies.
In 1977 with the Spanish Constitution grants to Catalonia the capacity of self-government in some matters. From that date, the Generalitat's Parliament, the Presidency of the Generalitat and the Government of the Generalitat, are its main institutions of self-government, as well as the other bodies created by law of the Catalan Parliament itself.
Catalonia, like other Spanish autonomous regions, has extensive powers transferred by the State. Currently, the Catalan government has competences in matters such as culture, tourism or housing. In other areas, such as credit, banking and insurance, it is the legislative development and implementation of the basic legislation of the State. Catalonia has its own police, being limited the action of the other policemen
In Catalonia there are democratic elections every four years, and except in one legislature, all of them have formed nationalist parties.
Where is the repression? Where is the lack of respect? The famous boycott was carried out by barely a panda of stupid with little impact (maybe in some company selling wine products).
"Bomb them every 50 years" ... what a nonsense!!! You definitely do not know the story or not beyond what you have been told in the circles where you move.
No one has to apologize. Only acting within the law.
4
I lived in Quebec in the 1980s and am familiar with regional secessionist movements.
Philosophically, I think Catalonia should be its own country if it wants to be. But it must secede constitutionally. I don't know if it's doing it properly or not. It sounds like it's not. If not, Spain can't tolerate a lawless insurrection.
The central government's heavy-handed reaction has made things worse. However, now that events are at this stage, it'll have to double down, assuming the secessionist actions are unconstitutional.
Pierre Trudeau did this in 1970 by invoking the War Measures Act and basically occupying Montreal with troops. The bitterness over this draconian action lingers to this day. But it did quell the insurrection. Spain may have to do something similar, grim and unpalatable as it will be.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_Crisis
64
That was due to the FLQ crisis which I'm sure you're familiar with and not the referendums on secession themselves. Granted the crisis and the referendums did not exist/occur in a vacuum, distinct from each other, yet it is entirely different than what occurred in Spain recently. That doesn't mean I support one over the other or either of them, I'm simply pointing out the difference. Trudeau imposed martial law to address a real and existential threat (remember a politician was kidnaped and murdered and there were bomb threats that had to be taken seriously given the context). Canada allowed the vote to go through on two separate occasions and passed legislation that would have enabled a path towards constitutional separation had Quebec garnered the requisite amount of votes.
Hopefully our Spanish and Catalonian friends can arrange their affairs as such that all parties receive the best of what they hope to achieve with the least amount of bloodshed. Preferably none.
1
And yet Trudeau won the 1972, 1974 and 1980 elections, each with strong support from Quebec.
3
The thing is they do not want to be their own country. Only 37% of those who could vote, voted for independence.
1
The virus of national and international fragmentation that seems to be sweeping the globe from Brexit to Kurdish independence now has come to Spain in the form of Cexit--the declaration of independence or secession, if you will, of Catalonia from Spain. Could it happen here with our own version of Catalonia--California with a Calexit? With the anti-Hispanic, anti-environment white nationalism of Trumpism in control of the federal government, who knows. The heightened ethnic divisiveness here fostered by Donald Trump seems to be playing out globally with the Catalans and the Kurds as well as in England with new rumblings of Scottish independence following Brexit. It's a recipe for the chaos of social unrest and dislocation and conflict at a time when there are already too many failed states like Somalia and Yemen and perhaps Afghanistan that are spawning terrorism.
5
The Catalans are not a subjugated or oppressed people.
They want to separate out of sense of tribal and cultural and ethnic superiority over other Spaniards.
86
Where do get this "superiority" nonsense?
People want to run their own affairs. What sense of superiority? You just made that up.
1
Most Catalan's perceived the Constitution as written quickly post Franco's death in part to assure no reprisals were initiated against those in the Franco reign.
The first Defense Minister post Franco's death was called the "Butcher of Barcelona" for the murder and killings of thousands of men and women who fought with the Republicans (not the Republican of the US..).
If one is educated in Madrid..just 3 hours by fast train to Barcelona..and cannot read or write Catalan..there is no possibility of work in Catalonia..and vica versa.
It is like two separate countries.
Many Spaniards believe the corrupt government of Rajoy is as bad as it was during the Franco era..the scandals of payoffs and secret funds in well known throughout Spain.
The controversy and separation is a result of ideological, customs, language and national identity between Spain and the region of Catalonia. And, of course, should Catalonia succeed..then come Basque Country..where fighting and succession activities prevailed until just a few years ago.
Tribalism is alive and well in Spain....
6
That's one of the illegalities of the Catalan administration. The languages are supposed to be co-equal but parents often have to fight to give their children instruction in Spanish, and businesses with Spanish signs are being harassed. As to regional differences, how about New England and Texas? Hamburg and Bavaria, Lombardy and Sicily. As for language differences, even within Catalonia there is a place, the Valley of Aran, where they speak a variant of Occitan, different from Catalan. You can take fragmentation too far.
11
For your reference, some facts you can check out:
a) Catalonia voted massively in favor of the current Spanish constitution. Referendum results were:
Yes: 90'46%; No: 4'61%; Blank: 4'23%; Invalid: 0'68%
b) 68% of the Catalonian electorate voted (compare that to US elections or the claimed participation in the October 1st illegal referendum)
c) The Spanish constitution does not include any mention to the past, amnesties or the like
d) Spanish is spoken on the streets in Barcelona as much or more than Catalonian. Spanish is the main language of private business. Catalan-only is a relatively recent requirement for public sector employees
e) Franco actually favored the economic growth in Catalonia, perhaps to avoid having a "Catalonian problem". SEAT was the state-owned leader of Franco's era industry and is based in Barcelona. So were most chemical companies (pushed by "Madrid"'s investment in Catalonia-based refineries), the publishing industry, etc. This was done to the detriment of other regions, deprived of public investment, access to capital and foreign currencies, etc. who were forced to send their people to Catalonia
f) Corruption is a huge problem in Spain. But only in Catalonia it grew from local government rings and illegal funding of political parties to being a central piece of how government operates. This, by the way, is still there. It is no coincidence that private companies are leaving en masse
5
Please, don't write about things that you ignore.
1- "If one is educated in Madrid..just 3 hours by fast train to Barcelona..and cannot read or write Catalan..there is no possibility of work in Catalonia..and vica versa."
First off, it's "vice versa".
Secondly, that's a blatant lie, you've obviously never been to Catalonia, otherwise you'd know that plenty of people in Catalonia speak Spanish as a language of choice (even at work). Why? Well, Spanish is official in Catalonia too, nobody is gonna forbid Spanish (in Catalonia, of all places, give me a break).
What about Catalan people looking for a job in Madrid?
There should be no problem, since Catalan people speak Spanish too (Spanish is taught in Catalan schools, despite the silly horror stories some Spanish nationalists might tell you about Catalonia).
So what's all the fuss about? PUBLIC SECTOR.
Obviously, if you want to land a job as public servant in Catalonia, you must know both Catalan and Spanish, it's common sense.
Nobody is telling people from Madrid that they can't work as public servants in Catalonia, they are simply required to learn Catalan (as are the rest of public servants in Catalonia).
Why? Well, it couldn't be simpler. Imagine you want to be a doctor in Catalonia. Catalan people have the right to be attended in Catalan and to use it when speaking to doctors and other public servants...
So you can't just not know Catalan, if you want to uphold that right (which a public servant must).
1
The Catalan independence move is similar to the Brexit move. Both are ill-advised, but are indications of unhappiness and alienation of a segment of the population. The role social media and partisan press play in dividing people is a new phenomenon that calls for a solution.
8
Is there anything to suggest that Russia had anything to do with fanning the flames? They do seem to want to cause as much internal turmoil in various countries as they can.
7
You mean like the USA in Ukraine ?
They are the Eternal Eastern Enemy, don't fall for the Berlin Wall collapse and other malarky. They are out to undermine ALL of the Western world with their authoritarian and pseudo-theocratical drivel.
Based on the independance vote, it appears Spain no longer has the Conscent of the Catalonian people. Does the right to govern come from the conscent of the government? Or can a government impose itself on a people contrary to their will?
If Catalonians want certain sovereinties and Spain wants to retain Catalonia, perhaps Spain should offer consessions in an attempt to tests in them rather than doing so with threat of force.
" ...Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, ..."
Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson, 1776.
3
"Based on the independant vote"...
The referendum was a mockery. Some people took selfies voting 4 times and there was no obsevators. votes were conunted by independentists. But forget about that. Let's say that it was clean and real.
Cataluyna Census it is 5.300.000 population. According to "official" count 2.044.000 Voted "Yes to independence"
In serious country to take sucha a bid step you need 2/3 of vote to go ahead if you do not want to break in a very bad way, not only with rest of the country but with your own citizens. That's to say 3.533.000 Real and validated votes with a minimum participation.
Also keep in mind that they have majority in the congress, but people vote it is barely 48%. Not enough to go ahead with such a big decission, except if you are a fanatic.
2
So hard for a corrupt Spanish government to let go of one of the economic jewels of its treasure chest.
7
Another replay of the Exodus. Best wishes to Catalonia and also to Kurds and the Blue States as well. May they all be free.
4
WHAT A MESS! WELL DONE SPAIN! Just given them the vote, they probably would have voted against independence, instead now you are looking at possible armed battles in the streets, sinking economy, broken country. Woo hoo!
(Boring old UK and Canada seemed to this independence stuff OK with Quebec and Scotland?)
Also "well done" EU which was all over getting involved in the Scotland independence vote but is all quiet on this one.
I think I'll go to Portugal on vacation next year!
9
me thinks both Quebec and Scotland have very different histories. Catalonia's independence is akin to Southern France demanding independence. At the end of the day they have their own language (Langue d'Oc) and from what read is closer to Catalan rather than to French. Catalonia was part of Aragon which was one of Spain's founding kindgdoms. Scotland has been a different nation for many centuries before becoming part of UK and Quebec was simply conquered. Stop using false equivalencies. History matters.
8
Franco tried to exterminate the Catalan language and culture. It was suppressed for most of the 20th Century and this is the counteraction. The current government in Madrid failed spectacularly to deal with the secessionist undercurrent, which has been part of Catalan society as much as in Quebec and Scotland. Saying Catalonia is Spanish is like saying Ukraine is Russian. History does indeed matter.
1
Do you rellay know about catalan history?? You are saying nosenses Leila. I'm catalan, and we have a real history of independence from the spanish governets. It's not something new.
This is also bad for the EU...what with the UK leaving and now this on top of everything.
The problem you will have is if Spain becomes to heavy handed with Catalonia and the EU backing Spain... not going to look good.
5
The rich seceding from the poor. This is is like the French Revolution in reverse. "But they have no cake, your highness."
"Let them eat bread!"
37
Actually Catalonia's per capita gnp is lower than Madrid's, the Basque Country's, and Navarra's. And the rest of Spain is hardly "poor." In any case, whatever happens now one thing secessionist folly has ensured is that Madrid will be heavily favored for international as well as national investment--1600 Catalonian headquarters have shifted their headquarters in a week and that's just the beginning. Madrid and Valencia offer all kinds of logistical and economic advantages, to begin guaranteed access to a much larger market (Spanish and EU) than Catalonia alone could provide. The secessionists may well solve the fiscal transfer imbalance the hard way: by impoverishing Catalonia over the next few years.
3
The USA should similarly split up to form 3 or 4 or more separate countries.
I mean, why not?
13
As long as NY is stuck with Philly I am fine with this!!!
it will be anti-globalization, that's for sure. It's all good. China is so strong now; Russia is preparing USSR 2.0; Europeans are busy fighting each others.
1
It was tried here once.
1
Well, it finally happened. These have been stressful days in Barcelona, stressful since the referendum and with escalating stress since the referendum on Oct. 1, and even before.
In that referendum, though, over 60% of the population voted, with 43% of the votes validated at 90% in favor of independence, and nearly 15% of the votes cast removed by force and destroyed by the Spanish Guardia Civil. Don't forget those numbers when judging this situation or reading that barely 40% showed up. It was a referendum declared illegal and boycotted by some, but braved by many and resulting in a clear indication of preference moving forward.
Political maneuvering since has not been graceful by either side, but the marches have been large using locals in support of independence, and by bringing in buses of people for marches against independence. Only one action was clear, though, and that was that if the 155 was applied to Catalonia, the Independence movement was going to make sure they made a full declaration of independence beforehand. If the 155 could be avoided without discarding independence from the talks, then that would have been the option, but alas, that option was not presented.
Now the messy part begins...
10
Campaigning for independence was clear and promoted highly and those against it stay quiet. Even today, that is the timid crowd that only comment in private, at the corner bar, watching the others scream and wave the Catalonia flag. Nothing has been fair play, by the delusional Catalonian government forcing the proces, making up laws to move forward their political agenda and the inept and short of sight Rajoys government. In short, I believe the big majority will lose in this deal. I was not strongly on one over the other, stay or leave, but the more I read and the more I watch the propaganda, the fake news, the absurd videos comparing Catalonia with Ukraine as an oppressed country, the clearer the picture appears to me. I hope the rest will wake up in time to smell the fire.
1
Instead of showing respect for the Spanish Constitution, political leaders of Catalonia have been responsible for stoking an independence movement that led to this dangerous situation.
Without Spain, Catalonia would be very much in a weakened position both domestically and internationally. EU has already indicated that they won't recognize an independent Catalonia. Also Catalonian leaders have shown opportunism in taking this course by ignoring the voices of almost half of Catalonians who didn't vote for the separatist movement. These Catalonians will have a hard time recognizing Catalonia as a separate country and are likely to develop into a formidable opposition force politically in with potentially serious consequences.
Spain has shown enough restraint in the escalating situation. I think the international community would largely support the Spanish government in imposing direct rule in Catalonia. Can anyone really blame the Spanish government?
Catalonians should learn a lesson from the U.S. experience. The U.S. went through a civil war to save the union, and most Americans would say the nation is much richer - both literally and figuratively - because of it.
32
The right analogy is not the US Vivil War, it’s the US independence from England. If Rajoy was not so politically inept, this would have never happened.
1
don't be so quick to praise the us for "saving" the union; a century of jim crow and the perversion of american ideals, first by southern democrats and now by largely southern republicans leaves many wishing that j davis and lee had won and left.
But you speak as if the Spanish Constitution was holy writ. It is in fact only some 40 years old.
After the death of the Fascist dictator Franco the army and fascist party agreed to give up power on condition that a constitution declare that Spain was indivisible and no region/nation could break away. That constitution was accepted 40 years ago by regions such as Catalonia and the Basque territory as a "work in progress".
So the new constitution was supported at the time only as the condition for the Generals and Fascists leaving government. Incidentally, the Fascists did not leave altogether - the present ruling party in Madrid was formed by Francoists expressly to guard his "legacy". You will have noticed [well, it depends whether your news media show it] the frequency with which Spanish government supporters give the Fascist salute.
In recent years Catalan governments have repeatedly sought to discuss a change in the constitution to permit greater autonomy. Every time the response from Madrid is "No, this cannot be discussed". To tell Catalans they must "work within the constitution" simply means asking a Spanish majority to allow a change, and the Spanish will not do so.
As for "acting within the law" - it was lawful for the British to deny independence to the American colonies, lawful for South African governments to deny Mandela and others the right of assembly and protest. So it is not enough for something to be "within the law"
No people ever won their freedom without a fight. Catalans must fight for their liberty, just like anyone else. I wish we here in California had the courage to split from the US and form a truly advanced country, free of racism, bigotry, ignorance, and superstition. The reality, unfortunately, is that most peoples passively accept the destinies imposed on them by others. In that regard, whether Catalonia succeeds or not, they are an example of civic bravery.
8
FREEDOM!!! How exactly are they NOT free? How exactly are they oppressed? Have we been to Catalonia?
14
The freedom to enjoy the fruits of their advanced economy, which at present goes to subsidize an almost Third World economy, namely that of Spain. A bit of research might come in handy.
We're not quite ready to give up on America yet, but it has looked better lately.
What if Russia and China recognize the new State of Catalunya, and enter on a mutual defense agreement? Will Rajoy send the army into Catalunya?
Will Spain put in prison several millions Catalans?
Catalans do not want to be Spaniards. If they have new elections the parties for independence will win again.
4
The parties for independence have never won the popular vote (48% only). You need a qualified majority for a decision like this. It is just common sense.
10
I do not think so. In a real, fair and legal election, they will loose really bad. And then what?
This is a false narrative promulgated by individuals interested in maintaining power and covering up all of their misdeeds. I lived in Spain for several years and have witnessed the extent of corruption. It all came to light during the ‘crisis’ when new money couldn’t prop up the wholes left from the blatant thievery. The Catalan government and officials were at the forefront of these misdeeds. In an effort to cover up, they reignited this false narrative that Catalonia was an independent country. There has never been a country named Catalonia. The region was part of the Aragon Kingdom. Many of the young people had been brainwashed to believe there was a kingdom. They don’t know what real life is about. They don’t understand that most of the exports from Catalan goes to other parts of Spain and that if they were to stop, they would revert to the Middle Ages! They don’t understand that their insignificant language is just that, insignificant. They don’t understand that they would be very tiny and would never be part of the European Union’. Where are the jobs and prosperity going to come from? Why are the selfish elders condemning their children for a dismal future? It is because many of those in power have been caught with their hands in the Cookie jar and looking for a means to escape. Wake up people of Catalan. Your future is part of globalización and not isolation!
109
Excellent comment. Correct in every point. Should be an editorial pick!
2
It does not matter. Fact is from now on a new Country has born and slowly will gain its place in the world. No secession was ever easy.
No, my language is NOT insignificant. No language is.
Contrary to NYT's Raphael Minder's purchase, lock stock and barrel, of Rajoy's electoral lie about economic and redistributive roots to the catalan problem, a simple look at Catalonia's opinion polls on independence will tell you that the biggest jumps in independence sentiment correlate with Rajoy government actions and threats against the Catalan culture and language, including the famous "we have to hispanicize Catalan children" which caused a 20- point jump, to 40% in 2012.
On the other hand, the antidote to these threats is obviously to work democratically to defeat Rajoy, a persistent populist pox on Spain's peaceful house of old. Independence has always been electoral snake oil on the other populist side.
1
This is crazy. Poll after poll show only only half the residents of Catalonia want independence, and the ruling coalition in Catalonia's parliament won only 48% of the vote.
Civil wars quickly grow out of hand and become far bloodier than people believed possible when conflicts broke out, of which the Spanish Cicil War and American Civil War are prime examples.
I'm a big reader of history, especially of those civil wars. It's still amazing to me how Americans who one day were best friends were perfectly willing to start killing each other the next day.
When Spain's civil war erupted, where leftists gained control of towns and cities, they butchered land and business owners, nuns and priests, in orgies of blood. In towns where the fascists and nationals seized control, they slaughtered union members and leftist politicians. In both cases, they had known and lived alongside their victims for decades.
Dangerous times. Remember the ugly scenes of violence in the "controversial" or "illegal" independence vote last month.
19
I would be very shocked and saddened if any violence emerges from this.
A strong majority there does not want independence. So all of this is stupidity on the part of some power grabbing Catelonian politicians. With their degree of independence, their suppression of the Spanish language in Catelonian schools, these are not good people seeking freedom, they're supremacists making use of fake grievances to gain power.
31
Catalunya is not a "region" of Spain. It is a Nation that exists for more than one thousand (1000)years, long beforeSpain.
6
So, yes, everything is explained then because Charlemagne created a buffer zone in the Pyrenees and a bunch of defensive garrisons coalesced into a somewhat comital dynasty around 1000 (who at that time dominated less that half the territory of today's Catalonia).
2
Yes, even more than that. I also miss that one time when the Dinosaurs and the Catalans ruled the planet.
3
The Catalan Counties merged with Aragon in 1137, and Aragon with Castille in 1516, forming Spain.
So you are way off there.
1
Why a secret vote to declare independence at the Catalan parliament? Today, 70 members (out of 135) of the Catalan parliament voted to declare Catalonia an independent state. You would think that such a historic declaration would make those making that decision extremely proud. You would think that they would want the world to know that they are the ones that, on such historic day, took a step forward and put everything on the line to achieve that independence that Catalonia so badly deserved. So why a secret vote?
Apparently, some people want to play Nelson Mandela (such surreal comparisons between apartheid South Africa and Spain had actually been made). But they only want to be the Nelson Mandela that walked out of prison as a hero and was welcomed by thousands and thousands. They want to be the Nelson Mandela that won the Nobel prize. The Mandela that came to power in the first truly democratic elections in his country. The only problem is that, before all that, Mandela suffered all kind of hardships and deprivations, and spent 27 years in prison. I have the impression that none of those who voted for independence today--along with the Catalan government that is behind it--want to play that version of Mandela.
So, let's have a revolution and split Catalonia in two halves! If it works, great! We are heroes! If it doesn't, we just want to go home. And we'll try again in 5-10 years.
14
Yes, the secrecy was designed to avoid accountability. When they talk to some of their radical constituents they will celebrate their dedication to the cause, but before a judge, an unemployment official, or a full complement of voters not so much.
3
secret vote removes possible pressure. the today's vote is a clear cut expression of the will of the people. the US should support Catalone people no less than it supported Iraq people under Saddam Hussein.
1
Hopefully, they do not wish to play the version of Mandela who planned and orchestrated bombings which wounded and killed innocent people... but I fear that is up to the Spanish government to decide.
2
it starte with former Yugoslavia...good luck...
5
It started with former USSR. It has been disintegration of larger nations ever since, not one unification.
5
England, United States (even threats from California), now Catalonia. Greed is the tip of this iceberg and being led by the 1% with Trump at the helm. And like an iceberg, the titanic "We have it, and you don't" mentality is leading this global voyage into the path of a dangerous and unseen mass lurking just below the visible surface. We are still a global leader, and unless we change course soon, history will tragically repeat itself.
5
Franco Lives!!!!!!!
No, Franco is dead and the good people celebrated it. Now we have to send to jail to Puigdemont and the other clowns that try to destroy our constitution
The pro-independence forces have a narrow parliamentary majority but have only 47% of the votes. The cause is the usual over-representation of rural areas. The independence vote was 70 yes with the majority being at 68.
Changing the lives of people on such dubious favorable vote is going to create an inevitable conflict with the rest of Spain and, more importantly, strife within Catalonia itself.
31
Agree. The worse outcome here is the break among Catalonians. Independents speak of the more than 2 million people that agree with them, but forget about the more than 3 million that don't.
7
70 yes, 10 no and 2 blanks. The three constitutional parties boycotted the manifestly illegal process.
3
Well said....
I love Spain and I love Catalonia, but I do understand the Catalonian's desire for independence. Catalonia was an independent state for centuries before it was forced to be a part of Franco's government which eventually became a constitutional monarchy. Catalonia speaks a language which is quite different from Spanish and under Franco they were not allowed to teach it in schools or use it in public discourse. Many of the people who grew up in that era are still angry that they never learned their native tongue very well. Schools are now conducted in Catalan and the young people speak it. Catalonia never wanted to be part of Spain and now that it is the most prosperous part of Spain it is easy to see why they might want to succeed. I don't know what is best for Catalonia, but I think the Spanish government is wrong to try to take over Catalonia. The carrot is better than the stick and the Spanish government is making a mistake trying to take over Catalonia.
7
It was not . It never has been
8
"Catalonia was an independent state for centuries before it was forced to be a part of Franco's government"
Not true. Catalonia was part of Spain continuously since Spain was formed by the marriage of Ferdinand and Isabella in 1469.
40
Pajaritomt, I have to inform you that you are completely wrong. I think that you should study Spanish history. Catalonia has never been a independent state in Spain, never. The only truth would be to say that Catalonia was a part of Aragon Kingdom, but never a state or country. They speak a different language....that it is not unusual in Spain...do you know that our Constitution Law recognizes five official language in Spain (Spanish, Catalan, Galego, Euskera and Valenciano) but the common language for all the provinces in Spain is Spanish. Franco was a dictator and one of the worst person in our History, and he didn't allow to teach Catalan in the schools, is truth...but neither Euskera, Valenciano, etc. According to your comment, would California, New Mexico, Texas, be independent states/countries? I don't think so....Please, before to make a comment....you should be better informed. Have a good day.
18
The amount of sheer ignorance in the majority of these comments here is depressing.
24
Alex,
Care to enlighten us the chosen one?
2
Agreed. With our long history of anti-democratic intervention and refusal to allow peoples of the world to craft their own futures, Americans have no leg to stand on in this conversation.
This is bad theater and even worse politics. Puidgemont was prepared to call for elections under the Constitution yesterday but backtracked because the radicals called him a traitor and he could not win immunity from potential prosecution as part of a deal. This illegal independence vote, seemingly the most momentous vote a representative will ever make, was done in secret. This allowed the separatist legislative majority (72/135) to plan for two members to vote no. The vote passed with 70/135 secret votes so that when faced with removal from office, loss of salary and so forth a representative could proclaim that there is no way of knowing how I voted. This is not democracy even according to Catalan law. The Statute of Autonomy requires a qualified majority of 90 votes for any amendments. The parliament's own legal team gave their best advice that this broke the Catalan laws and the Spanish Constitution. They went ahead anyway under the banner that "heads I win, tails you lose," is a political tactic embraced by important philosophers they struggle to name. They are settling for a colorful martyrdom rather than face the natural electoral consequences of their reckless politics.
38
It won't be so easy, although the secret vote is very telling. However, the majority of the would-be no votes left the room before the voting took place.
"The Senate voted 214 to 47" in favor of statehood for Catalonia. Some news commentators add that those opposed left the Senate floor before the vote was taken. So exactly who in Catalonia is represented in this vote? A fiasco of so-called democracy.
7
I don't see a serious process in place here for a fundamental change for Catalonia's independence, but do hear a shrill plea by people who feel aggrieved by circumstances as they are in the region. The Spanish leader Mr Rajoy does not seem very flexible or concerned re: the concerns of Catalonians, though he does seem to have agreed to some perhaps circumscribed talks or negotiations.
2
Please read the news again. The Spanish Senate voted on Article 155, to preserve national unity after a unilateral move by Catalonia.
1
Is this the right time in the world to be putting up barriers and segregating ourselves? The people and culture of Catalonia is already clearly defined. I don't believe separating its government from Spain will provide the economic or personal wellbeing that the Catalans believe it will bring.
23
Look at all the liberals and progressives commenting here in favor of Catalonian secession and the repressive Spanish government. These are the same people who regularly demonize southern states for seceding from the union, precipitating the Civil War. The hypocrisy is astounding.
18
What do you know about repression? The only repression in White Plains is when there is an accident on the Verrazano. You joke, though. Good one.
6
Hmm, I must have missed where the commenters indicated their personal political leanings. Profile much?
3
Paul,
What is ‘astounding’ is that you equate southern states temper tantrum because they couldn’t practice slavery to the demand of the Catalans desire for self-rule which by the way I sympathize with and completely disagree the way they went about it.
1
I can almost see the tentacles of the nationalists in this article... they don't even try to hide it...
6
Both parties working really hard to stoke up confrontation, I see
1
I imagine officials are telling Trump, “No.. no..sir.. Catalan is not run by cats.”
30
I wonder is Catalonians realize how despised they have become in the world and in Europe in particular. They are now viewed with shame.
36
This could be the future for us in here in New York. Secession!
3
Let the Catalonians have their own country. Let them determine their own destiny. What is Rajoy afraid of? What is Madrid afraid of? They get to keep the rest of their territory, after all.
5
I do not know what "Madrid" is scared about but I am sure the majority of the Catalan Society is scared of the President of the Catalan Parliament calling fellow Catalan Citizens "enemies of the real Catalan People" because they support Spanish Political parties. I do not know about you, but here in the US most of all understand whose American values they talk about when they talk about "Real American Values" or whose America should be great again. And, no, it is not pleasant nor democratic.
9
they are afraid of the chain reaction-Basques are next in line.
1
Looks like a model for blue states to me.
6
Go Catalunya Go!
We welcome you to the world with open arms. Catalunyans have never felt Spanish and will never do. they have their own language, their own culture and their own identity. Why be part of a country that you don't feel you belong to? only to pay taxes and get less in return!!!! doesn't make sense.
11
Catalonia has profited by being an engine of prosperity for Spain, just as Germany profits from being the engine of the EU. If Catalonia cuts itself off from Spain, then it cuts itself off from the prosperity it seeks to keep. It is self destructive.
14
Such an ignorant comment. Were you aware that the referendum vote had no census? This means that people could vote at different polling stations all they want. This detail is not a detail... it’s the difference between a farce and democracy. NYT needs to make this clear to its readers. Second, your point that the net tax benefit to Catalonia is reason to leave is an argument against progressive taxation. More inequality is not a good policy pursuit
6
Catalonia is not "the" engine of Spain. It is a prosperous region, but it is not the only or the most prosperous region in terms of per capita income.
On the other hand, it is true that Catalonia greatly benefits from economic activity with the rest of Spain.
2
Bringing back the royalty was the first step back to facism.
Suppressing a vote was the second step.
Give people their voice and they won't need molotovs.
4
Actually is was the first step away from fascism, away from Franco, and into the democracy that the King defended from a coup in 1981.
11
A howling wilderness. That's how General Jacob Hurd Smith ordered his troops to leave Samar Island in late 1901.
This is what the secessionists have brought upon themselves thinking they can laugh at the rest of the Spaniards and skip the laws of the land. They're hoping, Spain's perceived lack of national spirit will allow them to get away with treason.
They're mistaken. An outright majority of Catalans are backed by the vast majority of Spaniards that now demand the full force of the law to put these traitors and liars behind bars.
15
Catalonia repressed by Spain... what a joke.
Ask all the Catalans who oppose the independence, more than half of those who live there, who’s suffering repression, who’s being coerced.
Puigdemont wrapped himself in the flag to hide the corruption of his party.
What a tremendous joke.
70
The irresponsibility of the ruling nationalist Catalan Government, incluiding its evil indoctrinating school plans among children, has undermined social order of all kind including out our economic stability. It is for that reason that central Spanish Government and all Democratic groups have to find a solution to such an irresponsible mess. The rule of Demcoratic Law must prevail
23
A particularly irresponsible bit of journalism on the homepage headline for this otherwise decent bit of reportage. "Spain" is not "seizing" "Catalonia". "Spain" is not moving to "take control" over Catalonia. Catalonia remains as much a part of Spain as Ohio is of the USA. For now at least, Catalonia is as much a part of that country as Madrid, Andalusia or Valencia. There are enough nuances and difficulties for international readers to absorb without this type of incorrect exaggeration.
49
Barcelona has a very different history than Madrid. Barcelona suffered during the war when fascist Franco cooperated with the nazis. Picasso's famous Guernica is about a village that was bombed in WW II. Picasso fled his homeland because of fascism. These events were not that long ago and people remember tthem. Any "takeover" of Barcelona will make things worse, as in the Basque country. I could see this upsetting the balance of power in Castilian Madrid. Spain is a new democracy, only 39 years old.
4
Guernica is in the Basque country, long way from Catalonia. So why mention it? Especially as actually, the Basque separatists amde peace with Madrid years ago
15
Guernica is a Basque village bombed in the Spanish Civil War by the Condor Legion. Picasso left Spain for France at the turn of the century, twenty years before the advent of fascism. Picasso was an honorary minister in the Republic but never returned to Spain during the war.
8
"Not that long ago"? The Spanish Civil War was 80 years ago. "People remember"? Almost nobody from that era is still alive. Your error-filled comment reflects the indoctrination with false "facts" that has led to this idiotic action.
5
Never better said: "Spain is different."
Yes, indeed the only country in which "repressed people" (Catalan and Basques) are the richest regions. They and all of those who irresponsibly buy the "repression narrative" should go to democratic France and come back to let us know the rights they have there and the ones they have in Spain because Spain decided so in 1978. We are waiting for the report.
4
A fact is that what's going on in Cataluña these days is a putsch, a coup d'etat. It is a part of the Nation revolting against the National Law. The Catalan parliament has broken the law today again. All those in the Regional Parliament who voted for secession shall be punished by law.
15
The Spanish state has handled this appallingly. It has only increased the desire for secession and in reality made it all but inevitable now. I think it’s a shame but if there is a clear majority to go their own way then they have that right. At present there is no evidence of a clear majority but by helping to facilitate an understanding of the true will of the people the Spanish state would have likely averted an independence vote. Now it is assured. Why don’t these so called leaders learn from history. The UK government often blunders but we got it right over the Scottish issue.
2
It is possible both to be right and to bungle it. They have.
4
Is that when T May said Now is NOT the time because if Scotland left UK it weakened her hand
2
Nonsense. We hear this all the time from the leftists, if you resist us, you only make things worse. Fine. Crack down hard and we'll take our chances on the future.
2
Good move. As a Canadian, I would hope that if Quebec ever tries its separation gimmick again, we would do the same thing. A minority has no right to break up a great country to the detriment of all.
47
Let's hope for a peaceful resolution in Catalonia, and, if it ever comes to that, in Quebec, and everywhere else.Might doesn't make right, and violence usually engenders more violence.
As a Spaniard, I don't know if the pro-indepence propaganda has caught up overseas, but Catalonians have not been persecuted nor targeted as if they were a distinct ethnic or social group. It fills me with shame they compare themselves to the Kurds or the pro-west Ukrainian protestors.
Yes, this sorry excuse of a country is deeply flawed, but regionalism won't solve corruption, unemployment, graft, diminished civil rights, and so on, in any of its regions.
Now we have to add this ridiculous duel of petty politician's egos to the list.
298
Regionalism led Spain into the conquest by Napoleon and then a 19th Century of civil wars. They've suffered enough that the lesson should have been clear.
5
Catalunya has failed itself exponentially more than many love to claim Spain has. The region's tragic flaw is that it will never realize this.
One of the things I've noticed as an American living in Spain are that what constitutes a college job in the US are careers here. A man will push a button on the automatic espresso machine for life. What level of education leads to this career option for many is a huge part of the problem and this example is from Barcelona. Extrapolate to an isolated provincial town like Berga.
In the US when you're unhappy with your job, most have the skills and resources to move laterally in the market and look for new opportunities. But the same person here would sulk and sit on his bottom, blaming someone else because he doesn't have the skills to do anything else. Spain is a lower middle class morass in this way.
Keep your head up Miquel, sanity will prevail.
3
1. I think most sound minded people have not been fooled by Puigdemont's antics.
2. I have visited Barcelona multiple times and people didn't appear to be oppressed in any manner.
3. I have visited other parts of Spain and I thought it was a wonderful country. I'm sure it has problems that need to be fixed but that's the case for all countries (except perhaps Denmark :)).
4. Tearing a country apart is not the way to fix problems.
5. I hope Rajoy and the rest of the government will handle this situation with calm.
6. Spain's unity means EU's unity.
2
It's called "democracy" and if Spain thinks it can hold Catalonia against its will...well, good luck with that. ¡Viva Republica de Catalonia!
9
Democracy? When a majority of Catalonians did not even vote on the issue? You have a strange definition of democracy.
19
Spain has the law on its side, so yeah, luck has nothing to do with it. Also, the majority of Catalonians didn't even vote, THAT right there speaks volumes about what REAL Catalonians want, and not what a few separatists want
5
No Mr. Minder. Spain has not 'seized' control. Spain is defending the Constitution. A Constitution that was agreed to by 90% of Catalans, and that was written with the help of two Catalans. But this is what the independentistas were looking for. They want the 155, they crave it, they were praying for it because now they can continue with their never ending martyrdom and petty narcissism. As we say here in the US, I'm taking my money elsewhere. It breaks my heart to not visit loved ones, but I refuse to spend one dollar of my hard earned money in this sham of a "country". Adeu.
33
"Agreed" after they had been battered by that monster Franco for nearly 40 years.
1
There it goes again - Catalan petty narcissism . Get over it Gordon. Franco has been dead for 40 years! And Catalans were not the only oppressed people.
3
Cataluña's recalcitrance in acceding to Madrid's mandate to capitulate and jettison its move toward independence — coupled with Spanish Prime Minister Rajoy's threatened crackdown on the region's thrust toward secession — does not augur well for the short-term or long-range prospects for Spain. Acrimony on both sides will simmer, other regions (namely the Basques) will feel emboldened to follow Cataluña's imperfect yet fervent juggernaut toward declaring cultural and political autonomy, and prospects for a peaceful, united Spain seem dim at best. It's beginning to look a lot like 1936 all over again. We can only hope that EU intervention can quell the angst and bring about some sort of resolution to prevent a complete breakdown of Spanish society and the political landscape as it exists in 2017.
22
1936 was a military coup by an opportunist who became dictator and presided over brutal and vile criminal acts that are still to be recognized by any Spanish government. Catalan Independence has been a goal for the past 300 years. If you are waiting for EU intervention don't hold your breath.
They already have cultural and political autonomy. That does not seem to be enough and they (their government and a large minority of the population) are demanding independence.
Only in 1936 the two sides were not regional. Politics became radicalized on both sides all across the country. The narrative of a war between Catalonia and Madrid is a myth.
1
Those who stayed away (didn't vote) in the independence referendum must now reap the benefits of their indifference. If the referendum had failed (with more voter participation) Catalonia would not be going down this path.
Fellow Americans, remember that in the 2018 mid-term elections. Participate. It is a duty and a privilege.
15
The referendum was illegal so most followed the law and stayed home... except for die-hard separatists.
No comparison with US mid-term elections.
7
The Spanish central government were violently beating people waiting in line to vote and also saying that the vote was illegal. I think many people stayed away out of concern for their physical safety rather than indifference.
2
The "independence referendum" was unilaterally organized by Catalan pro-independence political parties as a partisan act. The Catalan voters had recently voted and pro-independence parties did not get a majority of the vote. People that did not vote, was not because of indifference. They just did not want to participate. They express their views by electing not to participate.
2
Seeing the Spanish Leader recently characterize the brutal tactics to suppress the recent vote on separation as "fake news" solidified my feeling that their country has not moved nearly as far from Francoism than it would have liked the rest of the world to have thought. While I denounce the heavy hand of the Spanish government to crush this movement, I fully realize that the US government under trump would be no less vicious should say California or the Northeast states choose a similar path. But, then given the path that the US Congress, and the Executive Branch have put us on, maybe it's time to start thinking in those terms too.
3
An exceptionally problematic precedent was established in 2008 when Kosovo was regarded as a legal, independent state. We might well recall that the United States was the second country in the world to legitimate its independent existence (after Costa Rica). We might also recall the EU rejection of Greece's 2015 referendum in which a majority of Greek citizen's voted against yet more austerity.
It seems that Western countries and institutions variously accept or reject the results of democratically free elections, which is inconsistent. Either we espouse and affirm democracy and free elections or we pay lip service to them whenever convenient and disavow them whenever inconvenient.
It seems to me that we cannot have it both ways without acknowledging the fundamental hypocrisy at the heart of Western democracies.
5
Also deserving mention is elections re-run until we like the outcome.
3
Nations react based on self-interest. A powerful nation like the United States is not greatly concerned by being called a hypocrite for recognizing Kosovo, and ignoring referenda or elections in Crimea or Syria.
1
It seems that the article and some comments are not taking relevant history into account. I hope that this bit of history helps to understand the current situation. An Statute of Autonomy of Catalunya was approved in 2006 when the Socialist Party was in the Government. Four years later, the Constitutional Court with a one vote majority of the right wing Popular Party changed fourteen articles and produced a revised Statute that has never been accepted in Catalunya and fully implemented by the Popular Party Presidents.In 2016, Catalunyans tired of lack of progress, elected a Parliament in which nationalist parties are majority with the programatic point to do a referendum. The Spanish government only answer has been to state that referendums are unconstitutional. No dialogue with the Catalunyan government, only the threat that the Law will be applied. Two former Catalunyan Presidents have been in jail.Now since the referendum is illegal the message to those who oppose separation was: do not vote.Participation on the referendum was 40% and the Yes had 90% of them. What most Catalunyans have expressed is that they want a referendum with a significantly higher participation and that could be undertaken normally. To this the National government has not only been silent but responded with repressive violence. Should not be blamed the Spanish government for its lack of willingness to assume basic responsibility in negotiating alternative solutions?
5
Why do we support succession efforts in some nation states and not in others? If self-determination is paramount, then who cares what their reasons are: if they vote to leave, that should be their right.
I’m not saying the secession movement in Catalonia is the same as Rwanda — apples and oranges — but on principle, if it’s really all boiling down to the right of people to be self-determining, then how can we make some arbitrary distinction at all?
Put aside the heart strings and the ad hominem attacks against first world people and the western condescension of Africans (‘oh, they’re so primitive, their nation states don’t matter & they play by different rules because we’re looking down on them’): at the root of the argument, how can we be all for self-determination for some and break the taboo of interfering in their nation state, while against it for others and demanding their citizens respect their nation state status quo?
4
I have favored some secession movements, since Biafra sought to escape exploitation.
However, the larger post-colonial picture was a fear that once started, the process would go on like the Balkans did before WW1 and now have again.
Local elites would seek sovereignty to exploit their own place, while neighbors would attack each other to grab resources, like Saddam attacking Kuwait but all over the post-colonial world. The fracturing would invite attacks, and the attacks would invite fractures, and it would spin out of control into vast bloodshed.
At the time of the post-colonial transition, this was much discussed. The leaders of the former colonies agreed that the risks were too great, and very deliberately chose the lesser evil of borders that were artificial over fighting for decades to establish "natural" borders.
4
"The referendum was marred by clashes between the Spanish national police and Catalan citizens that left hundreds injured, including police officers."
This outrageously paints a picture of two sides "clashing" after showing up for a fight. But one side--ordinary citizens--turned up to vote. Another side--the Guardia Civil--showed up to keep them from voting, including by beating up civilians. One does not have to be a supporter of Catalan independence to see how this "evenhandedness" gives cover to police repression of civilians.
I hope I'm wrong, but there may well be even worse atrocities against civilians committed by the Guardia Civil in the coming days. It is utterly important that your reporting informs the world accurately about any such developments.
5
The "hundreds" figure comes from the former Catalan government. In point of fact, two people were hospitalized. The Boston Massacre this isn't.
6
Or it is. Wasn't the toll 4 people in the Boston Massacre?
Putin, Putin, Putin. Now he’s the cause of this too, according to any number of commenters. Maybe he’s also responsible for your favorite show being cancelled, Harvey Weinstein, your not being able to stick to that diet or your favorite team not doing well this season. Seriously, is there anything that people don’t think this apparent mastermind genius is capable of, like some Bond film villain?
5
It's times like these I wish our foreign policy wasn't run by the equivalent of the bullpen of a single A minor league ball team with a 12-46 record.
6
It has been like that for half a century. The fiascos of Cuba and Vietnam were the start of an endless amateur hour.
3
Mike: I don't see you here complaining about your mutual funds or your 401K. Stock market just hit another record, business confidence at an all-time high. Yet the Republic is in danger because Trump is unpopular in Park Slope.
1
spain's move toward military dictatorship is nothing more than an affirmation to continue the savage austerity against the working class and reinforce its solidarity with eu elites; could get ugly.
4
In democracy a minority can never impose its will to the majority. Even counting on their onw estimations...independentists never went beyond 48%. Moreover, for a paramount decisionn such as this, 51% may not be enough, when even Catalan Law (Estatut) calls for 66% for any substantial Estatut amendment!. No matter how loud they shout, show riotious and well organized, how well stirred up and supoorted by therir own gov. Independentists have no legitimacy to decide upon the majority will.
31
My mother's father immigrated to southern Colorado from Catalonia prior to the Spanish Civil War, where he married into an old well established Hispanic family. And I vaguely remember my grandfather speaking Spanish with a funny accent. I'am having difficulty though understanding how the people in Spain could even contemplate sinking into another civil war, and cannot see why Catalonia and the Spanish cannot come to an agreement of shared government and local autonomy, much like the Quebec Sovereignty movement did with the Canadian government. I note that this arrangement in Canada has resulted in a mutual prosperity, and allowance for regional pride that ought to be the envy of any Democratic country in the world
3
Carlos, 48% is more than 39%, which are the votes of the anti-independence parties. You conveniently omitted that the remaining 13% of votes went for parties that supported a self-determination referendum but did not have a party position on the direction of the vote so that voters and party members could vote their conscience
1
There is not going to be any civil war, just some criminals will go to jail. This is just coup against the Catalan people.
I would like to know what oppression are they talking about it? I do not like a government and I asked for a new country. Ridiculous. The pro-independence
supportes do not believe in progressive taxation. Also they are racist. They think they are better than anybody else. I do refer to an article published here in the NT where they were quoted "we get up to work and every body else to play the guitar". Last but not least the pro-independence crowd has silence the other part of Catalonia who wish to be part of Spain.
37
Hopefully there will be a peaceful conclusion to this crisis, but Madrid is 100% correct in its move to stop Catalonia from its reckless disregard for the rule of law. If President Buchanan had immediately moved to use force against South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi and Texas in 1861, our country would have been spared four years of brutally bloody warfare.
13
This is another brick knocked out of the wall the liberal political elites have been building around themselves for decades that has excluded the real people who are the victims of the 'we know best' myopia exemplified by the unelected, undemocratic dictatorship that rules the EU.
Those days are drawing to a close. People have a fundamental right and duty to govern themselves and relish the sovereignty that lets them do that. Yet to the liberal mind 'sovereignty' is a new cuss word and speaks of division. Since the liberals are the inventors of 'identity politics' it's strange they don't understand why people should want their own identity rather than being commanded to accept something that is alien to them.
This doesn't mean division in the world for as President Trump said in his brilliant speech to the UN General Assembly, sovereign nations should "Join together to solve common problems, seeking allies to befriend not enemies to conquer"
But then Trump said it so it must be wrong. Go figure.
2
Europe turned its back on us in '39. All right wing dictators were removed from Europe (Germany, Italy) but not from Spain. Europe did not do a thing for us in 40 years. EU has not changed and it will not act. They acted in Kosovo because too much blood was being spilt and it looked bad in the news. It seems the EU does not care about people or rights, just about looking good in the news. I imagine it will say something only if it comes to blodshed.
2
It would be helpful if they NYT were able to publish a dossier of sorts regarding a little more background as to the sentiments of those seeking independence in Catalonia, i.e. why they feel oppressed by the Spanish state. Of course maybe the paper did already write about that and I missed it, but an embedded link to that article would also be helpful. Thanks.
2
Catalonia was independent for more than 900 years from 801 (where it was created by Charlemagne) to 1714, where Philip V conquered it and via the Nueva Planta decrees banned the traditional Catalan political institutions and rights. For the last 300 years it thus became a part of Spain - that continued to suppress the Catalonian language, customs and culture.
Historic wrongs want out. You do not have to look further than the history of Ireland, that conquering a country with its own culture leads to conflicts for centuries
3
What continued suppression of Catalonian language, customs (whatever they are) and culture does exist in 2017?
6
When Philip V won the War of Spanish Succession, he punished Catalonia for betraying Spain by reducing the autonomy of the Duke who had ruled it *as part of Spain* since the marital union in 1469. Aragon had been one of the Kingdoms united, and had been part of Spain all that time. It had sought to support Karl as the new King of ALL of Spain, not just of itself. It lost an attempt to take over all of Spain.
7
Not sure if you are talking about Catalonia or the Middle Lands... what a mess of legend and poor history...
2
Advice to the Spanish government:
Declare martial law, send in the army, and arrest every leader connected with this movement and their families. Abolish Catalonia as a legal and geographic entity, dividing it between neighboring regions. End the use of the Catalan language in any official dealings, and ban the flag. Rapid trials and punishment for the leaders. Rescue Spain from the rebels.
It should all have been done two weeks ago.
4
Hopefully this comment is some form of sarcasm, as doing what you propose would undoubtedly make the situation worse and likely lead to civil war.
1
Spain's government did not let go of the Basque country when they sought independence, why would they let go of Catalunya? Why would the government let go of the hens that lay golden eggs? Who is going to economically maintain the rest of Spain if the Basque and Catalonians break away? Maybe Galicia, to the northeast of the country, is next to try. If they show any indication of wanting to break away from Spain, the whole northern area, from the West to the East Coast, could join forces to proclaim independence from Spain ---if not together, at least at the same time. Cooky idea, I know.
1
Madrid is richer than Catalonia or the Basque Country and Galicia is among the poorest communities. Rajoy (like Franco), by the way, is from Galicia, so even though they're 100% bilingual with every bit as much of their own culture as Catalonia they have no incentive to declare their independence. The Basques have been sensible enough to figure out that their prosperity depends on privileged access to a much larger market than their own tiny country could ever provide. Catalonia is just big enough to have fooled itself into thinking it could go it alone--but when you spit in the face of your primary market (the other 80% makes their 20% possible), they can decide to take their business elsewhere or, better yet, have it move closer to home (along with the jobs). 1600 Catalonian companies have moved their headquarters in just one week, mainly to--gasp--Madrid. So they're shooting themselves in the foot. But try to tell that to someone who's turned their flag into a religion and has been sold the promised land--it's going to take a lot of wreckage for them to wake up and realize they're not Denmark.
2
The people of Catalonia should make a strong statement regarding their sovereignty by immediately rejecting membership in the EU and NATO.
1
I am not sure I understand. Or is this sarcasm? Not sure.
Daddy Vladdy in Moscow would like that very much.
2
I don't have any clearer a sense of why some Catalans want independence than I understand why the Spanish government wants to hold on. Castile and Aragon's Catholic kings seem to have done a better, more responsible job of administering their territories than Spain's technocrats are doing now. And where is the EU in all of this? What about NATO? Europe's institutions seem to be completely AWOL is this conflict. Does this not impact them? Does this not impact us in the U.S. as NATO's effective guarantor?
Either way this goes, this seems like a big gain for the authoritarian set -- Putin, Erdogan et al, who can now point to either a fractious, rudderless Europe or to Spain's heavy-handed repression as justification for any moves they wants to make against former Soviet territories, breakaway Balkans and the like.
1
Hi, Michael, just a brief comment on EU involvement in the whole thing. The EU involvement has meant basically to let Spain cope with this rebellion by not even the majority of Catalan citizens, therefore, strengthen Spain in its role as a sovereign country, of which Catalonia is a part since its foundation.
2
"Castile and Aragon's Catholic kings seem to have done a better, more responsible job of administering their territories than Spain's technocrats are doing now."
Well, the Inquisition was a big help there.
2
So a NATO member is having a fractious debate and these days I would love to know the involvement of the Russian FSB's Europe Bureau and their GSU in all of this Catalan conflagration. They so love adding oxygen to every little fire... or in this case, to a long seething fire.
The Russians insidious and sophisticated involvement in our own 2016 national election debacle leads me to believe that the Spanish tinderbox was even simpler prey... For a few dollars, the Russians can do so so much damage...
4
Tread lightly are words to come to my mind with this. Like a lot of European countries, Spain has a troubled past. The current impasse with Catalan appears to be extremely dangerous for Spain as a whole and smacks of a possible civil war. The political leaders should reflect on their past and not too distant history and avert another calamity. We in Ireland had our own civil war nearly 100 years ago. The outcrop of that travesty still resounds today. It was a disaster for all who participated. Tread lightly.
4
This is where a politics of tribalism and grievance leads to. Those who are affluent see themselves as oppressed by their tax dollars being sent to the "takers" who live in other regions. Those who are less affluent see themselves as condescended to by elites who see them as denizens of "fly-over country". Since there are no universal values any longer, American First remember?, then nationalism sunders even the impulse to dialogue with others. Over this weekend there will be bloodshed in Spain for the first time since the Civil War. Wonder if this will be dismissed as "fake news"
1
I agree with much of what you say. It is unfortunate that no one in the past 80 years did work of meaningful and lasting reconciliation after the CIvil War. It might have averted this situation. Maybe.
I hope you are wrong about the bloodshed.
3
When the USSR broke into separate republics, that was a triumph for personal freedom. When it happens in Spain, it is "the fractious region of Catalonia". Why the difference?
7
Umm, because the Soviet Union was a dictatorship, with no free elections and zero freedom of speech, religion, press, assembly, etc. all punishable with prison time?
Just a wild guess...
4
A democratically elected government. THAT is the difference. And a democratic resolution will be had because of a democratically formed constitution.
Did you really need that to be said?
3
So if people want independence from a government we don't like, that's good and if they want independence from one we do like, that's bad. Thanks for clearing that up.
Puidgemont's gamble is clearly not going to pay off. Most Catalans are ambiguous about independence, unilateral separation is clearly illegal, and the referendum that supposedly gives legal legitimacy to the separatists' actions barely drew a turnout above 40%. His own parliamentary coalition, barely a majority, is too unstable to guarantee independence would be a smooth process. Meanwhile, Spain's constitution and the Senates' overwhelming vote to invoke Article 155 give Rajoy clear legitimacy to suppress the independence movement and take over governance of Catalonia.
My only advice to Rajoy would be not to emulate Puidgemont and overplay his hand. Article 155 should be enforced carefully, mindful of the delicate political situation at hand; a repeat of the scenes of outside riot police clashing with protestors on the day of the referendum would not help his cause.
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I am afraid that the thousands of National Police who have been cooped up in the ships (in the port of Barcelona) these past weeks are not going to be as well balanced as one might hope for in this situation, given that they feel that their rights have been infringed upon, because of the separatists.
Some of them may be out for vengeance. Not what is needed now.
2
"My only advice to Rajoy would be not to emulate Puidgemont and overplay his hand. Article 155 should be enforced carefully, mindful of the delicate political situation at hand."
I agree. The first thing that needs to be done as soon as Rajoy takes control of the Catalan government, is to hold an open election to elect new leaders in Catalonia and return Catalonia to Catalonian control (within the parameters set in the constitution.) Then perhaps review that constitution and see if it needs to be revised. I suspect that if there was some sort of open vote in Catalonia that allowed all residents of Catalonia to vote on whether or not the law needs to be changed or if Catalonia should separate (note, I say open, meaning all people living in Catalonia, and not just people born in Catalonia, which make up less than half the residents) I think that number would be a lot less. And yes, Gerard Pique's vote still counts only as ONE.
3
If you read article 155 of the constitution, no where does it say he can call elections, take over the government and disregard the very constitution it claims to be defending. He is essentially making himself president of Catalonia and this is in itself UNCONSTITUTIONAL, besides that his party has 10% votes in Catalonia. He is not defending the constitution. He is violating it, but who will stop him? The constitutional court is completely corrupt and in his pocket.
1
"Spain’s democratic constitution of 1978, which was approved by more than 90% of Catalan voters, gave wide autonomy to the regions but affirmed 'the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation'. Only the Spanish parliament can change the constitution." ("Why the referendum on Catalan independence is illegal, The Economist, 26 Sep 17.) Everything follows from the rule of law, no matter how much you may not like that law. It is Catalan who is the aggressor here, in holding an illegal referendum and, subsequent to that, an illegal move to separate. As a Canadian, I remember all too well the lessons of the Quebec referendums, especially the lack of clarity around the 1995 one. Catalonia's move is not democratic, by any means. If you want to move toward separation, fine; but this clearly is not the way.
7
In this age of rampant mass globalization, why not let the Catalonians determine their future and declare independence if an orderly and fair vote could take place?
Mr. Rajoy and the European elites that run the EU, ECB, and IMF are afraid that if Catalonia were to succeed as an independent republic, then a domino effect could result in other corners of the fractured EU where other peoples feel oppression through globalization.
3
Read Wilson's 14 points. Based on the "noble ideas" contained therein, many political entities were arbitrarily and overnight fragmented, creating new minorities in place of old ones.
The Wilsonian peace treaties of 1919-1924 are considered examples of great diplomacy, when in fact they paved the way DIRECTLY to the rise of belligerent powers and the outbreak of World War Two.
So why is this crowd praising Wilson's ideas and condemning Catalonia's peaceful actions that are in perfect harmony with peoples' commitment to smaller, less centralized communities?
Up with Catalunia! Down with Madrid's "police actions"!
5
Spain,
If you can find the time, please read Roger Cohen's column today, "A Quiet Life", especially his words in regard to Brexit. This may cause you to rethink the whole idea if recession.
My gut instinct on the right of secession tends towards supporting it. But only if it aligns with a predominance of public opinion and public will. At best Catalan society is split 50:50. That's no a foundation for independence.
98
50% is very good The US started with just 1/3 support, 1/3 for British rule and 1/3 on the fence
1
What about the rest of Spain? Don't they get a say so in this matter? Or would we allow NY State or California to split off if their populations got independence fever?
A country can’t hold together as long as they see their region as a country or an autonomous region within a country. This has been the case for centuries. Unlike the USA’s evolution as a country, Spain was was conquered and forced together.
I’m afraid this will only lead to war. I hope I’m very wrong.
12
I would prefer no violence as well. But, I would rather see a war for autonomy and independence than a war for oil/wealth or to show military might.
1
Sadly, I think you're right. Sooner or later, and probably sooner, force will be used.
"Spain was conquered"... not really. A good review of History of Spain is needed, I think.
2
Rajoy's excessively heavy-handed response -- especially AFTER Puigdemont tried to moderate things -- is almost comically bad politics. Just going to create lots more resentments and make the political crisis worse.
Where are all these tone-deaf, heavy-handed "leaders" in the world coming from these days?
17
How exactly Puigdemont tried to moderate things? The only thing he has done is clear himself for any major offense that will get him in jail, dropping all confrontation and illegal activities to the parliament and the citizens. He is a coward, he justified not calling for early elections because security cant be guaranteed, so how he committed citizens to an illegal referendum that the state clearly indicated that will be prevented by police forces?
6
I'm not a fan of Rajoy but how could you exclude Puigdemont and other secessionist leaders from the group of leaders of being tone-deaf? The secessionists never won over 50% of the popular votes in Catalonia elections. It got barely 38.7% yes vote in the referendum it organized with no monitoring by anyone. How could it claim a "mandate" when it doesn't even have a single majority, let alone a super majority as Catalonia's own statute requires to amend its own statute? All the gestures of "talk" from Puigdemont have been nothing but playing for international press. He wanted to negotiate secession with Madrid on a nation-to-nation basis, something the central government would never agree to no matter which party is in power in Madrid. Secession by a region is forbidden by Spain's constitution, just as it's forbidden by US constitution.
BTW, Rajoy's government was a minority government but his stand on Catalonia has majority support in the rest of Spain as it's shown in the Senate vote to activate article 155. The rest of Spain resents Catalan secessionists' narcissism, selfishness and the constant bogus claim of "victimhood". Spaniads I know are all in for a boycott of Catalan products. So it's not accurate to say Rajoy is tone-deaf in this case.
The underlying logic of the quote in the last two paragraphs encapsulates the main flaw of Catalan separatism. That means: 'The legitimacy of the nationalist/separatist narrative and goals *precedes* that of any democratically agreed decision'.
19
The escalation of the conflict was the Senate's authorization to intervene Catalonia's government, not the declaration of independence.
I have lost a lot of respect for the NYT due to their biased and charged coverage of the Catalan situation.
9
Isn't that what the lead says?
"In a major escalation of Spain’s territorial conflict, the Spanish Senate on Friday authorized the government to take direct control of the fractious region of Catalonia..."
1
So, it all escalated after the Senate´s authorization to intervene Catalonia´s government, yours is a very thorough analysis on the whole thing, definitely more reliable than the NYT´s.
2
Can someone please explain to me why some Catalans wanted to secede in the first place?
27
What is the reason why a rich region, with autonomy, without repression, in a democratic country wants independence?
The answer is not very difficult.
1
David,
I am an American, but have worked with Spanish, and among them, many from Catalonia (Cataluña in Spanish, Catalunya in Catalán).
Catalonia has its own language and culture, and for centuries has been under Spanish domination. Never having gained independence, the movement has grown in recent years, even as the region has been given far greater autonomy than it had under the short-lived Spanish Republic, just before the Spanish Civil War and the Franco victory (the Nationalists win over the Republicans).
One of their grievances is economic. Catalonia is rich economically. The belief is that the region contributes to the Central government more than it receives back.
1
One, Taxes.
Two, Cultural differences.
Three, No one likes the highly corrupt Spanish Federal government.
Four, because Madrid was probably going to arrest them for sedition even if they didn't declare independence.
1
Congratulation to Russia on their newest criminal fiefdom.
These Useful Idiots are giving the rubes who delivered Brexit and Trump a real run for their money.
God help the West.
23
Is everything a Russian conspiracy I mean seriously it seems whatever the political establishment does not like is a Russian conspiracy. Perhaps instead of blaming Russia for their problems they could fix those problems. But that would require work and some guts and no one wants to do that
4
@ Dirk
The myopic "West", a.k.a. U.S.A, can only see through the prism of the Cold War and Russia.
FYI: While the US and the West dithered in 1936, the Soviet Union was the only p[arty to support the Spanish Republic during the Civil ewar. THAT stance led to the carnage or WWII. Russia and Spain have historically been on friendly terms – except, that is, during the Generalísimo Francico Franco's murderous dictatorship and was first in recognizing the return of the Spanish Republic after Franco's death in 1975.
“The most dangerous worldview is the worldview of those who have not viewed the world.”
~ ALEXANDER VON HUMBOLDT
(1769 – 1859)
Prussian geographer, naturalist and explorer
2
Why are indeependence supporters automatically branded Separatists, similar was done for Scottish indepencence supporters, , yet every July 4th , America celebrates its "seperatism" from the UK as INDEPENDENCE, shame on you NYT
31
Could be for the same reason that we celebrate the South's secession from the Union. Oh, wait there was that thing about 600,000 American deaths resulting...
Good point, William. The men and women of the 13 colonies are Freedom Fighters - because they won. If they had lost they'd be labelled nasty separatists
Because the Scottish referendum was fairly held, carefully monitored and sponsored by the Brits and the Scots, together, in a way that meant the vote was a faithful and binding decision by all the Scottish people. Had the result gone the other way, Scotland would now be on the way to a--difficult--independence in negotiation with the UK.
All very different than what is happening in Spain.
The nationalistic, xenophobic mob wins again.
This time in Catalonia.
62
Oh dear, this again. How xenophobic is it to wish to manage your own affairs?
Is it Catalonia which has unresolved fascist issues? Is it Catalonia which insists on ruling its neighbour? Has Catalonia a long history of repressing the culture and language of Spain in Spain? Is Catalonia's ruling political party the direct and conscious inheritor of Franco's principles? Was it Catalan robocop thugs who beat peaceful voters in the recent referendum? Was it Catalan governments which repeatedly refused even to discuss constitutional reform?
No it was not.
4
Xenophobic? Where did you get that from?
@ Robert
I went to school in Salamanca for a year and one semester in Barcelona.
The loony separatists have brainwashed the Catalan people, especially the youth, that they are very different from Spain, that Spain is oppressing them, that they have to fear them.
That's xenophobia.
3
So are divorces legal in Spain?
2
Divorces between spouses are legal.
But the Spanish Contitution defines the nation is “indissoluble.” No province can divorce itself from the Nation.
2
Maybe an amendment? We, ourselves made quite a few, including correcting our constitution on suffrage....I'm not dogmatic on this, I just wonder if secession is not a viable option, understanding long-held traditions disseminated by those in power.
1
why do they actually want independence tho?
2
They describe themselves as oppressed, though they are one of the richest provinces in Spain and already have more self-rule than other provinces.
It’s a case of being Whiney - like trump.
2
A very long history of a separate culture, a different language, suppression including firing squads during the 1930's fascist government of Franco, and since 1492 has been forced to be part of Spain.
3
See my response to David of Miami.
The separatist activities in Catalonia have an economic basis, and represents a trend that promises to increase during the next fifty years. The world will see a decline of nations and the emergence of regional states. China will eventually fracture into regional economic centers, so will India, and even the U.S. might be a confederation of regional areas built around strong economic centers. It will be interesting to see how the national government of Spain handles the situation, but they will eventually have to settle for an independent Catalonia. A realignment around economics will be the wave of the future.
10
Why is it that China and India WILL fracture, but US MIGHT be a confederation?
1
so you're supporting Georgia independence, right? I fully support you, far away, from Madrid
2
This will get ugly.
3
I'm not sure the Catalans have it in them to fight.
2
If next month a village or city in Catalonia votes to secede from Catalonia, will Catalonia allow it?
155
They've already slapped down the Val d'Aran who overwelmingly don't want to separate from Spain. Apparently self-determination is only good for the loud mouths.
3
Min 7:45 of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLXZYtd_pcI
One of the most representative persons from Independent move (he actually is Catalonian representative in Spanish Parliament), answers this way when questioned about Tarragona (south of Barcelona) voting to be Independent from an hypothetical Republic of Catalonia. Of course it is a "no"
1
Probably not. The gander would refuse to be goosed.
1
Get your popcorn out folks for this screwball comedy starring Carles Puigdemont as himself.
15
He’ll have plenty of time to rue his mistakes. In jail.
1
For a country that went through a horrific civil war less than 100 years ago they have seemed to learn very little. Shame on the Catalonians.
112
Absolutely agree, shame on them. It's as stupid as one can get, bad for Catalonia, and bad for Spain, the sheer definition of stupidity. The Spanish government has done a horrible job, too, but that doesn't justify plunging a country again into a civil war scenario, with the horrible consequences it had (I'm half Catalonian and my region, Teruel, suffered terribly at that time). The irresponsibility of politicians is difficult to understand.
Talk about blaming the victim! It is partly the memory of that civil war that makes just over half of Catalans want to say goodbye to Spain forever.
Peace through dialogue.
4
Spain is one of the great countries of the world. Fantastic weather, welcoming warm people, a long proud history, terrific food and culturally diverse.
Very sad to see this happening
55
WEATHER etc does not make a country great!
1
We need to stand up for democracy and behind Catalunya! There is nothing illegal about a people seeking independence, freedom and self-determination. Democracy has spoken, Catalunya needs our support.
15
Imagine if Texas or California voted to secede from the United States. There's a strong analogue to the situation with Spain and Catalonia. Contiguous territories, strong regional economies, supportive populations. Would the U.S. Government allow it? Would Donald Trump cave in and say, "Sure, it's what the people want." Of course not.
In this instance, Catalonia is one of the economic engines for Spain; I'm sure (part of) the calculous for the Spanish government is the potential impact on the Spanish economy if Catalonia becomes independent.
However, my own view is, that Catalan people are being emotional and reactive, and not thinking clearly about the implications of a decision to become independent from Spain. I fear ugliness ahead for this lovely country.
2
Who will support Catalunya should they secede? Certainly not the EU! This will be a financial fiasco for them.
1
That's the same argument the Confederacy used.
2
They're strong-arm tactics will only serve to make a bad situation worse in this no-win dilemma. If they are guided by the ethos of doing what is best for the people of Catalan, and what is best for democracy, rather than what is best for Spain's economy (a far more brute end), they might back away from the jackboot thuggishness of that their security forces have displayed so far. And then, in turn, they might create portals for genuine diplomacy and dialogue, that might lead to a creative solution that they can't yet even fathom at the moment, because of their 'might makes right' approach thus far.
7
It would appear that the cultural and political divisions of the Spanish Civil War have not, even after all this time, been resolved.
4
While I've always admired the Catalans for the perseverance and courage. this seems to be a low point in their political evolution. A unilateral referendum that would never be recognized was a fruitless approach. The EU is in no position to support it. Perhaps Puigdemont has put his flag in the sand so that one day, independentistas will have leverage when the EU/Europe further weakens.
81
I fully agree, Steve. Just as muddle-headed as the Brits who voted Brexit, a vote of petty-minded and suicidal resentment.
The biggest vilain in this story is obviously Merkel's Germany. Her arrogant lording over her fellow European nations when it came to budget austerity or her open-bar policy towards migrants were the many German sparks which ignited the fires of nationalism and xenophobia in the European Union.
EU / Europe weakens when they cannot force Poland and Hungary to respect basic human rights.
EU / Europe weakens when the Commission President, mr. Junker was a "magician" in financial movements in Luxembourg.
EU / Europe weakens when immigrants from war countries are forced to stay in inhuman conditions in refugees camps, or worse, they are drown in Mediterranean.
Democracy and civic rights should not weaken Europe
1
Merkel's "open-bar policy towards migrants... ignited the fires of... xenophobia." Thanks for underlining the complexity of most political situations and showing how simplistic partisanism (especially the name-calling kind) contributes nothing.
The territorial instinct, aka "to hold the Union together" ,common to both men and dogs, is best left to the latter.
4
These people are seriously so dramatic. Oppressed? First world problems anyone!?
How is Catalan culture soooo different from "Spanish" culture (whatever that means), besides language? I'd really like them to explain these huge differences that everyone else seems not to understand, along with how they've been oppressed, any more than I have by living in NY and having federal taxes go to poor red states. Oppressed? Stop complaining so much please. You're lucky in the vast spectrum of things.
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It's called the narcissism of small differences. It is precisely communities with adjoining territories and close relationships that engage in constant feuds and mutual ridicule because of hypersensitivity to details of differentiation. (Wikipedia). As a half Catalonian, I agree. No difference, only language and maybe some of the cuisine. However, according to Jordi Junqueras (the VP), Catalonians are racially superior to the rest of Peninsula (including Portugal). Nice way to create a Republic.
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I agree, but Catalaan not exactly newsworthy until recently [ did I get the spelling right? ]
It is all about money. Rich Catalonians and their latte-sipping U.S. fans think there is going to be a global socioeconomic revolution starting from Barcelona. Because it is just so hip there.
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Must be nice to be Europe and have the USA paying your defense budget; you get to play silly games like this without a care that you will be attacked or have to defend yourself. Germany was 17 countries 150 years ago, Italy was six – let’s celebrate it all and foster all the long overdue breakups.
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You can be sure that the US is not paying for anything that it does not find to its advantage. The US share of NATO funding is 22%.
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We pay for our own defense, thank you very much! It's my taxes that fund my country's military. You don't pay a cent. It's my countrymen and women that serve their obligatory national service on the front line with Russia. My country's professional soldiers and airmen serve in Syria, Iraq, and Afghanistan. We develop our own advanced weapons, but buy lots of weapons from other NATO allies including the US.
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i bet Puttin is very happy to see this et al.
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I guess we should start treating Spain like we started treating Russia after the Crimean/Ukraine fiasco.
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This is insane! Like the Texans who continually press for Independence, the Catalan leaders can't even tell you why they want independence. First Brexit, then the rise of Trump - who seems to be deliberately stoking the embers of our civil war divisions while also inflaming tensions in the Koreas - and there is a right-wing brand of nationalism on the rise in all of Europe. Is this all Putin's doing or is the world just going nuts? I fear this will all end badly.
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This reminds me more of the French-Canadian separatists wanting independence for Quebec.
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I do not know, did they show (and implemented for 40 years) the same contempt towards Canadians as these rich people show towards Spain?
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It's neither Putin nor a crazy world. It's the result of increasing inequality and the people being fed up of the 1% earning 300x their annual salary. Politicians sell out the moment they reach the top and the people are now willing to take a chance for change thus voting for more "extreme" candidates.
Spain could have sat back, let the referendum happen and then said, so what?
Instead they move to the Kiev gambit of violent showdown, putting Euros in the position of U turning on the Ukraine (and Kosovo) precedent when the first shot rings out.
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Yes, and the US should have resort to let white Supremacist in the South have their way and organize an illegal referendum where they have the nerve to ask African Americans to go an vote or face their consequence. Nice, right?
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Is that really the picture of the Catalan regional parliament that best depicts the situation? It conveniently cuts the half of the parliament that was empty to show opposition. Also, all the people in the back are not representatives, but public, invited by separatists to fill in for the picture. It's sad to see when propaganda makes it to the mainstream media, but I'm convinced that this is an honest mistake by the NY Times.
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People in parliament have a responsibility to VOTE.
When people are counting on you to represent them and you walk out rather than vote you cheat the people who voted to put you in office.
It would be a lot harder to spin the story if the opposition to the separatists had turned up and voted. If they are in the majority they could have put and end to it in the election.
After all, you don't have an electoral college.
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Here in the US it happens in the most recognized news outlets. When they report about this issue, they are constantly (and I hope inadvertently) inaccurate and misleading. It makes me wonder about their reports on areas of the world I don't know as well.
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Hopefully this will end peacefully, but I doubt it. Repression from Madrid is coming.
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End of Spain as we know it. Terrible decision.
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1) No, 2) Yes
1
Amazing, I look a the photograph of all those happy and smiling people and think....some of you will die because of this. Most of you will have your lives turned upside down and your town peppered with the destruction of a rebellion.
And they are absolutely blind to this. All they care about is today, tomorrow, and some dreamed-up future.
They remind me of American liberals.
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Right. As opposed to American conservatives, who care nothing about their present or their children's future - only some dreamed up, glorious past.
2
Do you foresee a repression as brutal as the 1930's with firing squads and no freedom of the press?
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I’m astonished by the way the NYT reporters have repeatedly shown this topic with such equidistance (I would say cynicism). They confuse people trying to equate actions and situations that are entirely different. Spain is a young democracy, with only 40 years, that’s true, with so many imperfections and of course is not an oppressive state, but a full member of the UE.
I wonder what else the US will do in response to the dispute ruling if such a thing would happen in its territory ? It’s seems to me that for Americans only their sacred Constitution deserves to be defended. Please, don’t apply double standards.
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In the US when federal laws are not followed by states, the federal goverment does not allow states to challenge the law. Otherwise segregated schools could still be the norm in the south.
For some reason the NYT, does have a double standard.
Spain moves in
Someone is left on the ground
Everyone uses it to back out of this downward spiral
Catalonia gets something out of the deal but not much
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Talk about pouring salt on an open wound. Rajoy may well end up doing to Catalonia what Putin did to Chechnya, and this time the world will be watching.
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Seems to me the Catalan Parliament were forced into a corner and had no option BUT to vote for Independence to be declared, very shortly BEFORE the vote in Madrid to suspend their own Parliament, with Madrid having refused to even talk to the Catalans.
Now much is up to the EU and the UN, and the international community who, until now, have been noticeably absent.
The solution is easy: Madrid offers to sanction a peaceful Referendum, at which all Catalans can vote without fear of violence or "illegality".
Good luck and best wishes to Catalonia - and Spain.
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It is the Catalan president who has been invited to speak to the central government again and again, and it is he who has refused every time.
1
"refused to talk..." There is a Conference of Regional Presidents, which Catalonia has refused to attend for years. Maybe you mean that some people prefer to chat in Twitter rather than to establish a serious debate
Now, let's try to be truthful here:
Puwigdemont was invited to speak to the senate on Thursday and he decided not to go.
He was invited to speak to the Congress in May and he decided not to go.
Of course, he talks (in English) for every TV camera. That's called propaganda.
I still don't know enough about this.
It would be good to know how this would work financially. Are they expecting EU support for the proposed new country until they are self-sufficient? Could they even join the EU? Is this the direction the EU is headed to facilitate oversight - smaller countries or city-states?
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Get your facts straight folks:
- Pro-independence parties won the elections (electoral college) but LOST the popular vote. 49% of the voters are imposing the independence over the other 51%.
- There is not a single western country with a clause in their constitution allowing secession of part of its territory. Not a single one.
- Why not going to Spain's parliament to discuss the matter and try to get support to hold a legal referendum? (Note: they already have 1/3 of the Spanish parliament support). Come on, work harder you lazy politicians
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Bravo Marcel, you have summarised the situation very well. WE have a bunch of spoiled politicians who think that since they don't get what they want in 8 years, they have to cut through using the tantrums of a 3 year old, but in this time with potential consequences far worse. Lazy, corrupt, pathetic politicians...
Well, half the parliament walked out because they were against the separation so the separation of Catalonia was won by 70 votes. Of course this is a comedy. What is happening in Catalonia in last month even for foreign press was confusing? president declared independent of Catalonia and then stop it, yesterday he announce to all press and politicians in Spain he wants re- election and half hour later he change. This is a joke. They know that they have to go to election anyway because Spanish government will go to 155 law that stops any action that is against constitution of country like any other country in the world and will announce election for Catalonia to choose their new government. Because anti separatist in Catalonia have been shut up and push around so nobody will hear them but in election they will have a voice.
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Europe is a mess. The UK falling apart, Austria favoring Ultra Right President (age 31), Italy and Greece bankrupt, bordering on Turkey (NATO member but pro-Russia), and now war in Spain.
Point is, here too much focus on conflicts within the US alone but is really a global issue.
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Yes, while the US is the world leader in stupidity, it has no exclusive claim to it.
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Oh, let them bask in their minute of glory, by tomorrow the ring leaders will be in jail for sedition, rebellion and what not. Over 1.500 companies have left Catalonia, among them 7 of the 8 big ones. They have the nerve to claim that they are being repressed by the Central Government like in Franco's time, it's offensive for those who lived through that period to hear these snotty, privileged (none of them seems to have a job, since there have been thousands out in the streets every single day) Spaniards who have the highest independence rate of any European country, saying they are a different culture (and who isn't) and are therefore entitled to a different treatment.
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More demagogues aggrandizing themselves on empty promises to nitwit voters and creating problems for everyone else. Now these separatists have a "republic." Great. What next? No serious foreign state will recognize a sovereign Catalan government -- the EU won't even go near it. They have no army or navy, and no practical means to enforce their border if they ever wanted to. Every company doing business there is now in some sort of legal limbo, which will cause their economic advantage vis-a-vis Spain to evaporate rather quickly. And for what? So that public signposts can be in Catalan only instead of both Catalan and Castilian?
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This move is nothing but MUSH! It has zero meaning!
The so-called “vote” happened in a diminished Parliament - where a majority of its Members no long attend! Why? Because they so completely disagree with this “separatist” fiasco, that they have boycotted these FAKE moves in all their ILLEGALITY - leading to the flight of capital, of companies (including Catalan Banks!) and the opprobrium of the EU, all its constituent nations and every other nation.
This is ILLEGAL MOVE - contrary to Spain’s Constitution which states the nation as Indissoluble. That Constitution was voted for by Catalonia affirmatively by over 90% of its citizens.
The Spanish Courts, and that includes the Catalan Courts(!), have ruled this bid for “independence” UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
I’m not making these things up. This is common knowledge.
We re witnessing illegalities, soon to be addressed by the central government of Spain via LEGAL MEANS - which will set in motion new elections (within six months) - starting with initial control of the province by Madrid - and ending with the restoration of provincial self-rule - as a Province, not a separate country. That’s fool’s errand!
My Spouse, a native of Spain, follows the Spanish Press, even the Catalan Press, on a daily basis. Puigdemont was never elected to his position. He’s a philologist of Catalan, currently being investigated for financial improprieties as a Mayor. He’s a Dreamer. And has driven the Catalan Economy into the Gutter!
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In the long view this is a reaction against global "ism". How we balance the needs and responsiveness of local government with the needs of national and global government is now the challenge of this generation.
If we understand this as the problem, maybe we can start to build some creative answers.
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Will they have to issue a new currency and re-hypotheticate all assets in Catalonia as collateral for its new currency? I believe the Bank of Spain will no longer be dealing with independent Catalonia, and the ECB is only dealing with Madrid. What happens when the newly formed Catalonia has no access to capital? It may sound like a minute technical matter, but where will the money come from now?
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The front-page headline here appears oddly biased. ("Spain Moves Toward Seizing Catalonia After Secession Vote"). Catalonia is currently part of Spain, but the headline makes it sound like Spain is taking over another country. That's what the separatists would like everyone to think. But what's really happening is that the central government in Spain is going to take control of Catalonia's regional government bodies. That's a dramatic move that deserves a front-page headline, but the headline should be accurate. This isn't like Russia seizing control of Crimea, which was part of the Ukraine. This is a national government exerting its lawful, constitutional power to exert greater control over one of the nation's regional governments.
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"USA Moves to Take Control Over California".
1
If Obama had still been president, he would have been making calls to both sides, and believe me, both sides would have listened.
Instead, we have a child in the guise of a man, one more interested in dividing his own country than in keeping another united. God only knows where this will lead.
3
Don’t expect a quick resolution here. It’s unlikely that there will be actual warfare, but the animosity of the Catalans will be stirred exponentially under any “occupation”. Even more ominous is the message the Basques may take away from this. Their own nationalism will flare up from where it has been smoldering just beneath the surface.
5
Spain won't let them go, that is where the money is.
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Not any more, it isn’t. 1500 businesses have left in the last few weeks and some of the biggest ones have said they will not return. Tourism is down about 20%, and Catalan debt is headed for junk status.
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Here we go, Catalan supremacist argumentation in stark terms. No, Spain will not "them" let go, because it is its responsibility to protect Non Separatist Spanish Citizens in Catalonia (those who were labeled "enemies of the Catalan people" by the President of the Catalan Parliament). Very democratic indeed! They can decide who is "Catalan people" and who is not.
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Rajoy could use the Lincoln method.....
invade, conquer, then 4 years after the war have a Supreme Court with 5 of 8 Justices appointed by him establish secession as not being a State's Right.
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Catalonia is not seceding to preserve and expand slavery. The analogy fails on that score.
Yes, the analogy is quite appropriate. Catalan separatism is fueled by a supremacist resentful bent ("we can do things better". "they hate us", they are not like us", "we suffered more like they did") and a privileged economic situation ("they are taking advantage of us, "we work, they live on welfare". "Let's make Catalonia great again"). Rather than having a dispossessed people, we have a revolution of well off people who became the political elite and Has used their political clout, Insitutional Resources and freedom for forty years to socialize their message, resentment and sense of self importance. At the same time they have been able to keep in their place those Spaniards who came in the 60s to do the work they did not want to do. Reverse revolution, I would call this. The richest people want to leave because they do not “deserve” to be mistakenly taken as Spanish , while those with modest means, living mostly in working class neighborhoods in the periphery of Barcelona, want to remain in Spain.
1
The people of Catalonia should have left well enough alone. They had their autonomy and now they force the motherland to play the heavy. Who knows where this will lead? Will more autonomous regions in Spain, and the rest of Europe, want to start doing likewise? This could get really ugly.
1
Amazing. Spain only cares because Catalonia is wealthy. It is a fitting rebuke of the Right from the days of the civil war. They were murderers.
1
Spain would no more let go a poor region.
If the Spanish government deprives the Catalans of their civil liberties by seizing their radio and TV stations, forcibly dissolving their Parliament, etc.; then El Reino de España (The Kingdom of Spain) should give up its façade of being a democracy, abolish its rubber-stamp parliament and just remain a kingdom. That way instead of calling its provinces "autonomous communities", it can then name them for what they really are, fiefdoms.
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This is a Putin bot automatically posting the same comment for a week all over the place... No point to answer, in the end facts will prevail... despite these odd past years
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@ Jordi: Sorry that the truth hurts, but that's the way I see it.
I would write it in Russian just to make you happy but we don't speak that here in Washington, D.C. Well, maybe certain folks at the White House ...
1
Have a close look at the photos of those waving their flags in downtown Barcelona. You may recognize students, retired people, other idle crackpots, Julian Assange, Russian trolls and Vladimir Putin. Who you will not see in these photos are the majority of Catalan people who have had their rights and institutions torched... and for what, it's not entirely clear. Repression? Use of the word by the separatists is an insult to those actually living in repressive regimes, of which Spain is not one... far from it! The fact that radical separatists can proclaim repression so brazenly is evidence of the fallacy of their claims. Oh, what a sad day.
19
For some reason, in 5 years time, after Donald Trump is re-elected, I can imagine a headline: "United States Moves Toward Seizing California After Secession Vote."
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My thoughts exactly!
1
So sad but so realistically possible that it loses some if its parody humor!
...and the way things are going, California will be right to secede. Followed by Oregon and Washington.
The secession issue was settled in the United States by the Civil War. In his War Powers Address at the beginning of the war Abraham Lincoln pointed out that “no one of our States, except Texas, ever was a sovereignty; and even Texas gave up the character on coming into the Union, by which act she acknowledged the Constitution of the United States and the laws and treaties of the United States made in pursuance of the Constitution to be for her the supreme law of the land.” Lincoln also pointed out that the United States had purchase the much of the territories that became states from other countries,
5
Plus the whole reason for secession was so that millions of Americans would continue to be imprisoned, tortured and raped for their entire lives. In the annals of secession movements, the Confederacy has got to rank as one of the least justified if not the absolute least justified of all time.
5
What a nonsensical argument. I have no secessionist leanings, but you seem to be under the delusion that because a union of humans was formed at one point that such a union is eternal. No, people have the right to self-determinations, and new nations can legitimately arise if the process is democratic, deliberative, represenative, open, and observed - such as was almost the case in Scotland, recently On the other hand, if a bid for self determination is inherently fraudulent as in crimea or undemocratic and unrepresentative as in catalonia, then it needs to be condemned.
2
I am so sad for the people of Spain. That a large group in the wealthiest region in Spain, with one of the highest degrees of autonomy in that nation - including their own language and culture, police, education, health, communication and so on - believe themselves to be "oppressed by the State" - because they need to pay their fair share of taxes and follow the Constitution (that they overwhelmingly approved) - is beyond belief. How narrow minded, how careless and self-centered. I don't have a very high opinion of Mr. Rajoy and his party, but Catalan's secessionist groups just jumped into the abysm, bringing with them not only the Catalan region, but the entire Spain. Good luck and clear minds to everyone, you are really going to need it.
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I agree. A foolish move.
2
"with one of the highest degrees of autonomy in that nation - including their own language and culture, police, education, health, communication" - I think you just made the argument why Catalonia should be independent.
1
They are not paying their fair share of taxes, that is the issue. They are a first-world region subsidizing a quasi-third-world country, namely Spain. Their situation is similar to the Blue States, which subsidize the trumpist retrograde red states.
What I just don't get is how the Catalan separatists don't seem to care about the staggering economic effects that will definitely cripple their "new" country. The EU won't recognize them. Most countries on earth probably won't. Businesses and investors will jump ship. The people opposed to independence will start pouring into Spain. Tourism will take a massive hit. Every single person in Catalonia will be affected somehow, most likely in a negative way.
All because a small but screaming minority value their own egos more than the well-being of their own country.
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The British voters didn't seem to grasp this either.
1
Clearly not that small of a population proportion since the Catalan government just voted to secede. They were elected by the people after all.
1
What you describe is already happening.
1
I had hoped that democracies would have realized by now that polarizing the populace is not a measured and reliable tool for maintaining peace. This is the surest way to prolong Catalan resistance to the Spanish government for another decade.
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I live in Scotland, where independence has been fought for in a far more civilized manner. The Spanish and Catalonian people should both be ashamed of how close they have come to civil unrest. Police clashing violently with peaceful protesters in Barcelona and their firefighters and police clashing with each other! This is disturbing and unacceptable in Europe.
Brussels must intervene before civil war breaks out in continental Europe. If Boston voted illegally to be an independent state and the governor of New England could not contain it, Washington would intervene. This test of European sovereignty is on the back of a weakened Europe, thanks to Brexit and the rise of far right parties across the continent. Leaders in Paris, Berlin and yes London (the UK is still in the EU) must all step up to contain this, now. It has been allowed to go too far.
3
Boston is a city in the State of Massachusetts. New England is a geographic, not political designation; it has no governor nor other officers, but comprises six states, each with its own governor and legislature, same as the rest of the states.
The EU has no more authority to intervene in the Catalan secession that it would have to intervene if Scotland attempted the same thing in regard to the UK.
1
Governor of New England!!!! Who occupies the office-- Cotton Mather?
1
I don't know exactly what is happening in Catalonia or what the natives opinions are
but I do know that declaration of Independence without the government consent is dangerous as it would invoke the anger of government and an action to get things on track immediately this would put in danger the lives of civilians protesting the government
Spain is a huge and very powerful country to fight illegally for independence with such a small region known as Catalonia would be suicidal attempt
separatists already know that but they do what they want anyway
4
This situation was exacerbated by the euro and the resulting economic crisis, which has done enormous social damage all over Europe as the stresses have exerted a centripetal force which is breaking Europe apart.
2
Hi Fragilewing,
With all due respect , this is not the EU’s fault.Charlatans and false-prophets across the Western world are to blame for leading a semi-engaged public astray with some , as JM succinctly put is, “half-baked,spurious nationalism’ promises.
At the end of the day, whether in BREXIT, here or in the US there will be scant improvement to the lives of ordinary people. Without economies of scale the Catolans will struggle to sustain their vibrant economy.
The Spanish central has acted boorish and managed this crisis incompetently . One can’t expect anything from rightwing governments. But most importantly it is the absence of adults who can bring diverging agendas to a table to iron out differences. Just look at how the BREXIT talks are proceeding.
A very depressing world we live in.
2
Yes, the EU economic bungling is the crucial background for many European problems including this one.
There are other 16 autonomous regions who belong to this union, and if one of them want to simply abandon such system, Catalans need to convince- using the constitutional rules and procedures- the other regions...and it seems this ain't going to happen. I truly hope for some sanity between the parts..The best path, always, should be the dialogue. I dont understand the passionate Catalan secessionist movement, since they belong to a country and they are ruled by a Constitution, and this Constitution clearly defines they can't simply declare independence "unilaterally". Catalonia already enjoys a great deal of autonomy and sovereignty, but what they actually pursuing seems completely impossible and unconstitutional. It seems unfair that few leaders of this region will utterly destroy what they had, just for the sake of a century old independence crave. The law is the law, and Catalonia is part of Spain, wanted or not, and if they want to pursue this crazy dream of them of illegally secede from the spaniard constitutional democracy, then I have to agree with the other 16 regions' impediment for such illegal act.
8
Your article has the order of events the wrong way round. Rajoy asked the Senate to invoke Article 155 (with the Senate's response a foregone conclusion). In response to this move the Catalan Parliament made theirs. This is an important disctinction to make.
5
In the propaganda war, we may never know whether Mr. Puigdemont decided not to call early elections because it would fracture his own fragile coalition of radicals and conservatives, or because Rajoy would still not bend on invoking Article 155. Certainly, Rajoy and his party have insisted that early elections were not enough -- they sought to humiliate the Catalans by demanding a formal withdrawal of their earlier independence resolution, even as ambiguous as it was. Sometimes, the best exercise of power is to know when to step back for compromise: Rajoy held the cards, and he should have accepted and encouraged a proposal for early elections as a way of buying time for dialogue. Unfortunately, Rajoy has no interest in dialogue. He and his party are against independence, against talking about independence, and, frankly, even against greater autonomy -- as their political and court fights against earlier agreements with Catalonia demonstrate. The Madrid government puts a goal on the board in the short term, but this will end badly for Madrid, for the national parties (including---maybe especially---the Socialists), and for the monarchy. This kind of movement is not stopped by repression, it's strengthened and radicalized by it. An opportunity for a fair compromise and consensus has been lost.
6
Catalunya is Spain and always has been, and with a referendum of 30% voting for the "independence", it is a coup to try to declare it. A very serious crime indeed...Catalan supremacism is fascism.
It's my view that most Catalans don't want independence. I've been visiting Cataluña all my life for family reasons - my most recent trip having taken place last week - and it's been my impression that though many people in the region are proud Catalans, and have their issues with Madrid, they prefer the status quo. Cataluña is, after all, one of Spain's most prosperous regions, and Barcelona is a bustling, dynamic city in its own right. Additionally, the region is home to a great many people from other regions of the country, making a split from Spain especially dicey for many of the regions residents. Most people, reasonably, simply don't want to rock the boat in this way.
Puigdemont and other separatists will, in my view, go down in history as arrogant, short-sighted, and ultimately, failures.
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It definitely your view, which is opposite to what the vote says. Why the heck is his a Times pick is beyond me.
3
If you bother to do a little reading on the subject, you'll see that the majority of Catalans did not vote in the referendum - in large part because they saw it as illegal (which it was). Additionally, because of the haphazard and precarious way in which the vote was conducted, it was the sort of poll that wouldn't pass muster in most democratic countries.
2
I really hope you are right.
In the meantime we, the people of Spain, have to suffer through this display of arrogance and xenophobia by the CUP and Puigmonts party. We will have to endure another economic decline, just when we were beginning to recover vigorously.
I will never forgive Puigmont and the CUP. I will never forgive the hurt they are putting in my country, my family and my purse.
1
I don't get why the Catalan parliament chose to declare independence in this manner. If they did believe all of Catalonia stood behind them, why not make a proper referendum, like that of Scotland? In any case, I hope this issue gets resolved peacefully and in a timely fashion.
6
Hello Ying, that's what we would have liked (more than 80% of catalans would have preferred an agreed referendum), but the Spanish government repeatedly opposed to it arguing that Spain's constitution states that Spain is indivisible and therefore no region has the right to self-determination
No worries. Now you are going to have a referendum on December 21st. No rush. And this one will be legal and fair, not like the one the independency supportes (and only them) had a few weeks ago. Will you accept that referendum results or will you only accept the one that you prepare? Smile!
In this 21st century we are seeing nations that previously banded together to form nation-states awake to a new reality. Relative global stability rekindles desires for self-determination as states not of a regional nation, but of the entire world.
2
Catalonia never banded together with Spain after the takeover by the Fascist regime of Franco.
1
Correct. Or before, I would say. Since 1714's decree by Spain abolishing Catalan institutions (strikingly similar to Rajoy's decree today), Catalonia's linkage to Spain has been precarious at best, and militarily enforced at times. There have been five prior declarations of a Catalan Republic, which were short-lived in many cases, but that should give you an idea of how feeble this bondage has been historically.
I don't get it. Do people waving flags actually think that anything good will come of this given the government's previous actions and the fact that the EU seems to show no interest in recognizing this declaration? I really don't understand why people look so happy in that picture.
10
Because we realize it won't be an easy road, but it is the first step, and it has taken a long time and lots of sacrifices. The international community will come around in due time, when they have no option. Other countries only care about the economy and the preservation of relative peace. When this starts to be at risk, many countries will come to accept that a peaceful recognized Catalonia is preferably to a military-ruled region in there heart of Europe. Because the use of military force is the only feasible method to squash such a large population's disobedience.
I have a friend in Reus in Catalonia who tells me one of the biggest questions is nobody is quite sure what the Catalonian people want. There appear to be no reliable polls and the most recent election was truncated by Madrid so its results were lopsided and suspect. If ever there was a situation that could turn violent, this is it; and if ever there was a situation that calls for negotiations and diplomacy, this is it. I wish them well.
12
The central government of Spain controls it's regions like any other government. It is the Catalan lawmakers who are trying to size control of a Spanish region from its citizens.
7
"less than 43 percent of voters participated in the referendum."
For those who didn't turn out to vote,they already chose to their sides.
Joseph, which side did the 45% of eligible voters than did not cast a vote in the last US general election? That's almost double what either Trump or Clinton got.
What is the political equivalent of 'time out'? If this article is accurate, there does not appear to be a strong enough support for such a drastic move of secession. However, the actions of the central government have been a tad tone-deaf as well.
2
Let's pray there is no violence. But make no mistake: who brakes the law needs to bare the responsibility and consequences. Don't fall for propaganda of "people fighting for freedom". Spain has been a democracy for over 40 years. This is a rich region and wealthy people show greed for power.
3
Sam, how much time have you spent in Catalonia? Arguing that this is just rich people greedy for power shows a profound misunderstanding of history, cultural idiosyncratic differences, and a legitimate desire to build our own future. This is not about supremacy, and it definitely is not about lack of solidarity. Solidarity only exists when you choose to exercise it. When somebody else exercises it on your behalf it is called exploitation.
Daniel, you can read history however you want but, pleas do not forget that Catalonia grew up so much because other Spanish regions did not. Guess what Franco gave the Basque and the Catalonia people a lot of money to build their industries to keep them happy... and other "poor" regions did not complain about it. Who talks about solidarity now? Catalans just care about how much money they have in their wallets. This is mot about historycal rights, this is just about their money flying to other regions. They remember whatever they want to remember. This is called selective memory. Period.
I was in Barcelona last week and a witness to the many protests, very peaceful I will add. However, I support Spain invoking article 155. While I appreciate democracy and the passion that the people of Catalonia have; a state cannot just hold and illegal vote and secede from a country. It just doesn't work like that. I hope there is compromise and resolution to all of this possible somewhere though.
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Are you not aware of the efforts made by Catalonia's regional officials to get Madrid to negotiate with them? And when the other partner refuses to negotiate? You leave. That's where we are at.
Really? How does it work? I would like to read your explanation.
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Well, then, how exactly does it work? The only other way I can see is a bloody war of independence.
This honestly makes it a bit difficult for the Western countries to stand on the moral high ground to accuse Iraq or Turkey for what they do with Kurdish independence.
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Yes Avi, the silence from the rest of the European Community is indeed deafening with regard to the crushing of freedoms in Catalonia. Its always easy to sit back in one's high chair and talk about "human rights", "democracy", etc. elsewhere in the abstract. But when those "modern, democratic European nations" suddenly realize what allowing Catalonia to become independent might mean for irredentist groups and regions in their own nations (ex. France's Corsica, Belgium's Flanders, Italy's Lombardy and Veneto, etc.) they all begin to suffer from acute laryngitis.
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Obvious lack of knowledge about history going on here...
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It is not at all the same as the Kurds. Catalonia is rich, doing well as part of a union. The Kurds are oppressed, poor and driven into poverty seeking their extinction. Franco did suppress the Catalans, but that is half a century ago, and was because of them being on the losing side of a Civil War.
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An absence of appropriate EU action in this crisis only serves to further degrade their embattled institutions.
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It is an internal matter of the Spanish republic. EU intervention would be like the UN trying to intervene if one of the American states were trying to secede from the Union. The EU is taking the "appropriate" action, it is not attempting to get involved directly in a matter that is not legally any of its business.
Spain is not a a republic.
There are other regions in Spain with more reasons to ask for independence that the Catalonia region. They were never independent, they just want more money. That is all they want. As they say, "la pela is la pela" and that is everything they want. Let's see what happens to all of those independentists now when they see that the Catalan economy goes down the hill... i am sure they will call Madrid for help. History repeats.
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Spain is and always has been a language and not a country, not even a geographical area (that's Iberia). Catalonia is no more a part of Spain than Kaliningrad (nee East Prussia) is part of Russia. Acts of parliaments can change maps and political boundaries but they cannot change peoples' hearts. I hope London is watching what is going on in Iberia closely. I'm sure the people of Scotland are.
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Yes, London is watching closely that Iberia (or Vueling) is bringIng down British Airways. My goodness! And whose heart are you talking about? Are you talking about the "real catalan people" (those who claim that Catalans voting to Spanish parties in Catalonia are "enemies of the Catalan people"?)
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Spain was not actually a language either. Castilian is just one of many. The Basques are extremely different.
Spain was a union, and a loose one, formed by the marriage of sovereigns. That was then was lubricated with New World silver to a wealth it had never produced itself. If they had a common interest, it was the Church, not the language, and the common interest in the Church has lost its hold while the language is still not united.
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the article misses the 'where' and the 'why'. a graphic showing where Catalonia is would be useful. and what are the issues and drivers of this movement? and why would Spain's government be opposed? what are the implications if this goes forward or is stopped?
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As ALWAYS, follow the money here.
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Spain’s Constitution mandates a Unified Nation that is INDISSOLUBLE.
The Catalan Cabal, a minority of people living there, has initiated an ILLEGAL rebellion. Both national and provincial courts have ruled this illegal!
The unrest they initiated has led to flight of capital, corporations moving their headquarters outside the province (even including Catalan Banks!) and the reduction of tourism in Catalonia. It’s an economic disaster for them!
The EU has already told them this is an internal Spanish matter. No country in he world has taken the side of Catalonia. They already have no financial independence as Madrid took financial controls weeks ago.
This is a rebellion that will soon be put down, its leaders likely arrested for Sedition.
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I'm wondering if we'll eventually be facing a similar scenario here.
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Let's hope so! America is now two distinct civilizations. We'd all be better off via a (hopefully peaceful) divorce.
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I sure hope so. California, Oregon, Washington and Nevada should lead the way.
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Stu -- Perhaps we could consider a middle path, a true Federalism of autonomous regions with regional leadership. We started with 13 states, and it may be that 50 is too much for Federalism to work. The center has too much power when the regions are too numerous and mostly too small.
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By this logic, Trump, and the preceding presidents should not be presidents.
How fast will this move? Will Catalan be appropriate for tourists in the next few weeks? Would love to reference the US Department of State but no government entity holds any reputability at this point...
Lauren, go visit Catalonia. It is a great nation, enormously cosmopolitan and very welcoming. You will never regret it, and you will also get to experience firsthand the birth of a nation. Catalans are peaceful by nature, even in the face of repression. You can be assured you will be safe. You may find yourself in the middle of massive demonstrations, but it will be fun. They are peaceful by design (the mantra of peaceful civil disobedience is ingrained in our brains) and you will make good friends
This makes me think of South Carolina voting for secession shortly after Lincoln's election.
It also makes me wonder just how much meddling by Russia is in this secession movement.
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You’re on target! Russia likes this as it causes EU problems.
While Russia may welcome this, there is no slightest evidence Russia has played any role in this. Such Cold War allegations amount to conspiracy theory.
Europe is godsmacked,none was
expecting a crise of such dimensions in Spain
of all countries in the Union.
All while China is on their way to unite Asia and Africa under an economical expansion of gigantic measures.. interesting times indeed. And very troubling.
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Not godsmacked the term your are looking for is gobsmacked. Smacked in the mouth.
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Nothing like the declaration of independence in the USA where everybody signed,
but with a secret ballot in the shadows of anonymity.
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What a mess. And enacting article 155 is only going to make things worse,
There is no easy way out. Both sides that their feet cemented fast in concrete. It seems as if Rajoy has no desire to have talks with Catalonia - just send in the troops seems to be motto.
A lot of blood is about to be spilt and any intervention by the EU ill only make matters worse.
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For those opposing independence who say "43% turnout was not enough" to decide what Catalans truly believe, what is their explanation for why they, personally, did not bother to turn out to vote? And now, what would be wrong with holding that referendum again, and asking them to turn out this time, and prove their assertion that "most" Catalans want to stay with Spain? Perhaps when they too get thrown down stairways and beaten by the Spanish police officers for the simple act of going to the polls, they'll see the appeal of independence from this "democratic" country.
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Opponents of secession didn't vote because for them the referendum itself was illegal. Would you take part in, and thus legitimize, a vote that you don't even think is valid? And would you risk braving the police in order to do that?
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You are severely misinformed.
People didn't vote in the referendum because it was declared illegal. In general, when invited to do something illegal you should decline. And no, don't give me that story of "voting is democracy" because it isn't. The mafia "votes" to see who gets whacked.
And also, people were not beat because they went to the polls. They were beaten when tried to impede the actions of the police by force. In America, if you obstruct justice you get 50,000 volts and a visit to the courthouse.
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They didn't turn out because the vote was illegal and non-binding. They let people vote on behalf of children who weren't even present, because this was supposed to be a symbolic measure to build support for ridiculous catalan politicians, hardly different from when deep-red Texas pols harumph about secession. Thanks to outside money, Russian interference, and a ludicrous over-reaction from the Spanish police, this symbolic vote has turned into a more self-destructive gesture than Brexit. Don't mistake this for some noble drive for independence; this is a culmination of craven politicians, disaffected elites who dislike paying taxes, and global right-wing movements that send money wherever it might disrupt the international order.
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The referendum was predictable because too many stayed out of the balloting. The refusal to call a an election in Catalonia smacks of hypocrisy. Surely if the separatists thought they would win why not confirm it with an election? Many Americans stayed loyal to the crown in 1776 and some might term that a civil war. Maybe the answer in Spain lies in asking the Spanish people as a whole whether or they want Catalonia to stay in or leave.
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Refusing to call an election in Catalonia isn't "hypocrisy." It is literally against the Constitution. The only legally-valid vote that could be held on Catalonian independence is a nationwide vote, in which ALL Spanish citizens could vote.
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Spain should not have attacked the previous referendum. But, the primary problem is that many people who live in Catalonia are not Catalan. Many of them have chosen to move there due to good jobs and the ability to make money. So if they are just visitors and not natives, why should they have a vote on Independence? It is not their country? This would be the equivalent of the United States giving all immigrants the right to vote in elections.
Actually, the Spanish Constitution signed by Catalonia addresses this issue along these same lines: all 17 regions of Spain must vote for allowing the independence of any given region. It's just that the Catalan Government purposely ignored the Constitution.
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Rhett Butler's comment to an energized Confederate party throng remains timely: "I think it's hard to win a war with words, gentlemen. ... there's not a canon factory in the whole South."
This isn't going to end well ... for anyone.
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Probably true but it all reminds me of two egos battling it out for no reason other than to try to force their way. It seems doubtful that either Puigdemand's or Rajoy's actions were absolutely necessary at this moment.
There was a cannon factory, and there was never a shortage of cannon in the South. Lee's final Army actually had too many cannon, and abandoned many of them.
The South had built in problems, but an old movie does not correctly define those.
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Mark:
I like and immensely respect you; but, sometimes ... you really need to pull out the stick with a resounding "pop!"