If I had my druthers New England would be its own country. I fail to see the benefit of belonging to any Supra-National government. Do small countries cause big problems?
You people are really not looking at what your really trying to do. Your actions are really trying to make Two National Nations in One. By doing so your saying your different then your forefather. You may be able to do ssomething's other don't does not give you the right to do what your trying to in The Nation.
“Sovereignty in a globalised world is an illusion. We only have clout if we work together.”
Catherine Day
You have to give credit where it's due. In this case to Mrs. Day.
How exactly the lifes of ordinary Catalans would be changing after "independence"? Can somebody please explain?
Mr Minder is missing to explain that the independence movement is massively supported by at least 2 million citizens, citizens changed Catalan parties agenda since 2010 and after October 1st clashes have probably increase independence support.
No independence case is cut clean, all are messy and challenge status quo legal frames. Catalans may well write another page in history and put a European Union into another Brexit situation. Something that can well benefit Britain and Catalan governments equally.
Catalan independence leaders are digging their own grave, and probably the grave for Catalonia's future as a dynamic region. They have caused huge economic losses that will take years to recover, if they do. They have split apart society, they have gained the rejection of European institutions. The prospects for the future are not bright, who is going to trust and invest on a region with underlying secessionist forces? How to rebuild trust among Catalonian citizens and the rest of Spain? Catalonia has been leading Spain in many areas, but independentist leaders have missused that asset to secede from Spain. How to rely again? Catalonian people don't deserve that, but now Is is their turn to handle it.
4
I don't know much about Catalonia's history and struggle to become an independent nation. However, watching Carles Puigdemont's public appearance on television, I'm sure of one thing.
Puigdemont is the wrong leader at the wrong time. He projects an image of a weak politician, scaredy-cats like figure without any charisma and will to lead Catalonia into independence.
4
This is all about the future of the European Union. Merkel and Macron should swiftly act as brokers of a new federalist pact that allows both sides an honorable exit, something that is clearly within the Union's virtual possibilities and requires a little wisdom, a little imagination and a lot of intensive diplomatic drive. Why not invite an outside personality (e.g. former president Obama) to try it. That might be a little late to do now, but the alternatives can fast turn tragic, and not just for Spain and Catalonia.
1
Earlier, Hollis lamented what the independence movement has done to the "crown jewel" that 1992 Olympic Catalonia was. It's a good point of inflection to look at. It could be seen as the culmination of the period of good rapport and optimism that existed in Spain and Catalonia since the restoration of democracy. All over Spain (Catalonia included), people and politicians were working together to create a harmonious, pluralistic society. But, in the 1990s the PP party started to revive phantoms from the past in order to garner more votes in Catalonia and the rest of Spain. They began to voice objections over the use of Catalan in primary and secondary education; they began to say that Spanish was being discrimnated against in Catalonia, etc., all to win over Socialist-voting Spanish speakers in Catalonia and knowing that any anti-Catalonia sentiment expressed would ensure votes for them in the rest of Spain. When the PP finally gained an ironclad majority in Madrid (both under Aznar and under Rajoy), they let their xenophobia and their unfairness (and now their violence) come out in full force. That has led to many people becoming pro-independent. And until that subsides and there are guarantees that both Spanish political leaders, media, and civil society and Catalan political leaders, media and civil society will go back to the harmonious civility and willingness to meet each other half way that existed in the 80s and early 90s, no one is likely to back down. How can they?
I don't expect that any country will ever recognize Catalonia, but it's evident the nyt has.
By the Catalonia's separatist leader you mean the President of Catalonia who was democratically elected by its citizens right?
Puigdemont is beyond a joke and an embarrassment. He's the Trump of Catalonia.
15
The UN should be able to work out a formula to determine the eligibility of a component part of a sovereign nation to engage in the process of becoming politically independent. Math and science might come to the rescue. Weights could be assigned to such factors as the level of economic integration between the totality and fragment, percentage of family members distributed between both, linguistic intelligibility as determined by random samples of speakers and readers from both totality and fragment, and last, and weighted most heavily, the number of years the fragment has coexisted within the totality. Surely, refinements down the road would be possible, via DNA, for example. Given such a formula, should Scotland be able to choose independence? California, Quebec, Yucatan, etc. Let the debate begin and all the politically charged ethnic nonsense be set to rest.
4
Has history every known of a political solution via "formula"? This is just another form of totalitarianism.
3
Ir's called the "Amending Formula" in the Canadian constitution; 7/10 provinces with over 50% of the vote can amend the constitution. Our Supreme Court also outlined the requirements for a valid referendum on separation.
Yes, I can see the appeal to science. Especially the DNA. Let's set up three classes of residents for Catalunya, via DNA testing. The full citizens would be those with "mainly Catalan blood", then there could be a second tier of "Meztisos" they could have fractional citizenship. And those with little "Catalan blood" could be allowed to stay as Gastarbeiters.
I don't really understand genetics, but from what I gather, in most places there isn't DNA that confirms nationality, but mainly......the most people in this area have such and such DNA. As Catalans might have such a high mixture of DNA, maybe they can find the majority DNA of those in rest of Spain and the main difference between the rest of Spain and Catalunya could determine the "Upper Catalans". Nationality as "not Spanish".
Sounds good? Or would you prefer the Hutu Tutsi route?
I find it interesting that the separatists in Catalunya have no proposals for life after independence: i.e., who gets to live in Catalunya, what is the currency? what do they propose for living with non-EU membership, what do they propose to do with their share of Spanish national debt, etc.
To Soraya Sáenz de Santamaría:
Catalonia was "rescued" in 1714 by Phillip the Fifth.
Catalonia was "rescued" in 1939 by Francisco Franco.
The proposed "rescue" of Catalonia by Generalissimo Franco Rajoy Franco in 2017 will not stand. It is way past time for Castille to end its violent, venal and absurd pretensions to Empire and to finally allow the Catalan people, once and for all, their independence.
I am very afraid that this next colonial adventure by Madrid will end in more bloodshed than the relatively minor brutality that accompanied the recent election, and hopefully not be anywhere near as bad and brutal as those of 1714 and 1939. But unfortunately Castille has a very long history of vicious conquest.
Dan Kravitz
7
The War of the Spanish Succession was an international conflict between parties trying to win the Spanish throne for one of the two claimants. Louis XIV made a bid that threatened the European balance of power. The Catalans pledged loyalty to Philip V in 1705 and reversed that position a few years later upon the arrival of an allied fleet in Barcelona. The Catalan people were on both sides of the conflict as were people in the rest of the peninsula. Madrid, for example, tended to favor the Austrian claimant. Catalonia prospered throughout the 18th century under the reforms enacted by the new monarchy.
The Spanish Civil War was also not simply a war of Castile versus Catalonia. The Catalan government supported the Republic, but there were many Catalans who supported Franco--Puidgemont's own grandfather, Salvador Dali, Josep Pla, Francesc Cambo, and so on. The common denominator tended to be conservative political views, social class, Catholicism, or an attachment to rural Catalonia. Madrid held out longer and the subsequent suffering under the dictatorship was widely shared throughout Spain. Catalonia remained a favored region for industrial investment throughout the Franco years.
This gross simplification of history to fit a sectarian narrative is a major source of the current conflict. It is a problem in schools, state subsidized media and in public spaces.
27
It is interesting how people outside Spain use the word "Castille". Rajoy is Galician :)
Come on boy. It was Madrid who made the last stand against Franco's dictatorship (in 1939), two years later than Barcelona's fall. Twisting history in such a crude way doen't make any good.
What a joke! Puigdemont and his gang will go down in history as the geniuses who ruined the economy of a prosperous region in less than a month. And rumor has it he's sent the wife and children out of the country to Romania (where his wife is from). I wouldn't be surprised if he skipped the country in the dead of night and shows up one day giving a press conference in Bucharest, claiming political asylum from he 'oppressive' Spanish government. In the meantime, he leaves behind a broken society and a ruined economy. Way to go Carles!
27
" Catalonia’s separatist leader, Carles Puigdemont"
He's actually the PRESIDENT of Catalonia!
3
PRESIDENTS are elected, not self-proclaimed. The people of Catalonia have not been heard from, since the vote was not representative of the population. Only teenagers and young adults who have no political experience and even less judgment seem to be protesting in the streets. If he is PRESIDENT of Catalonia,
only his immediate followers think so.
13
He was never elected President of Catalonia!
He was elected on 19th January 2016 by the Parliament of Catalonia and appointed by the King of Spain. The office has both representative and governmental functions. 10 seconds with a well known search engine.
When I read about the secessionist tantrums of half the voters in one of the richest, most privileged, most self-governed regions in the developed world, and all the self-inflicted pain and social fracture they are willing to create for the sake of nationalism, I think about all the people in this world suffering from earthquakes, hurricanes, wars, displacement, authoritarianism, environmental destruction, and gut-wrenching poverty and I cannot feel anything other than profound shame.
33
What does being rich have to do with feeling like you want to be independent or not? That is a non-issue.
If the European Union is the Country of the future why is Spain lashing out? Of course it's the money! You know The Catalans are culturally different? Why should it matter, in the EU which province you're in? In fact it may be best for the EU to get rid of the old Nationalistic views and go back to allowing peoples of certain cultures to form their own entities incorporating their cultural province within the EU? Bavaria already wants to be independent of Deutschland, Flanders, too. The Basks.... There are really pros in letting all these little entities exist within the EU, namely the EU will have better cohesion without the Nation-States thinking they are above the EU (which they all agreed to give up certain sovereignties to become a member). The EU would at this point be equal in strength of governance to the USA.
6
Blood and soil, eh? No, nationalism is not a recipe for peaceful coexistence where pluralism has worked well. Greater London, Frankfurt, Barcelona and many other pluralist metropolitan areas show a better way forward. The nation-states you decry are often the promoters of tolerance. The rural hinterlands seeking homogeneity and ethnic conformity are the problem.
15
B-A-S-Q-U-E-S.
3
Catalan culture is for the most part, a myth. If you visit Barcelona to experience "Catalan Culture' you will be experiencing the same types of customs, attitudes, religious beliefs, sport preferences, food, music etc. that you would experience in other parts of Spain.
1
Meanwhile, and since people are talking about oppression and Catalonia being a colony, independence is supported overwhelmingky by those in Catalonia who are richer and those whose ancestry is of Catalan stock. What is surprising is that these two categories overlap more often than not . Rather than having a disposessed people, we have a revolution of well off people who became the political elite and Has used their political clout , Resources and freedom for forty years to socialize their message. At the same time they have been able to keep in their place those Spaniards who came in the 60s to do the work they did not want to do. reverse revolution, I would call this. The richest people want to leave because they do not “deserve” to be mistakenly taken as spanish , while those with modest means, living mostly in working class neighborhoods in the periphery of Barcelona, want to remain in Spain.
21
It is becoming clear that the very idea of democracy with equal representation is fading fast. In Spain, one side wants a separation, the other does not, and neither side wants an honest election. In the United States, an election gerrymandered 250 years ago put a pugnatious oaf in the White House who lost the vote but not the election. In Britain, an ill-informed public voted to separate from Europe, and now, according to polls, better informed in light of the disastrous negotiations with the EU, no longer wishes separation. But the great lights of Whitehall will have none of it: stupid is as stupid does, and stupid is going to do stupid even when the wiser.
8
Yes, equal representation. Talk about that to Separatist Catalans who have the majority at the Catalan Parliament because of uneven and favorable vote weight and who are overrepresented in Spanish Institutions. Meanwhile, these same separatists want to push for independence to end plurality in within Catalan Society as well. You know, that pesky + 50 % who do not bow to their wishes and that, if Catalan separatist dream come true, will be dispossessed of civil and political rights in their independent republic.
15
Mr. Puigdemont has assembled the fuel and now he his lighting the match. His chaotic and incompetent leadership is putting Catalonia on a path to disillusion and despair, or perhaps even worse. History has shown that there is a way to strategically propel an independence movement forward so that the people ultimately have a legally-sanctioned vote. Unfortunately, Puigdemont appears to only be interested in riling people up with no end-game in sight.
27
For me, it always comes full circle. I relocated to Barcelona from New York in 2009, and an American school parent whom is Spanish told my wife and I in our first week that Catalans love to make noise, but she emphasized that it's only noise. Going on nine years as a Barcelona resident that is such a profound understatement.
Independence is a daily weight that drags Catalunya down. Without it, the region would thrive as Spain’s crown jewel like the world saw at the 1992 Summer Olympics in Barcelona. But separatists live in the past, protest ad nauseam, and one cowers in the dark shadows of her terrace wailing on a pot and pan with a metal spoon while my wife and I are trying to watch the last season of The Sopranos. Feeding the independence lie to farmers, students, and provincials is easy and a lifeline for many politicians. What’s hard, however, is to roll up your sleeves and work together for a better country.
This latest round of phony politicians in Catalunya’s regressive government amount to oceanfront property salesmen in Lleida. They’re chimera chasers, playacting for their base as a fragile fake alliance formerly from the margins. Give Catalunya one day a year without noise and the sound you will hear is a bright future.
42
Superb insight. Thanks for writing this.
13
Well said Hollis. But sadly, Catalans live in a past that never existed. They were never a country, a kingdom or even a principality. And that's what irks them and makes them resentful. Because when you're unhappy with yourself, you put others down to make yourself feel better, and they've been doing that since 1714. To my Catalan friends and family I tell you: get over yourselves, your history, your past and get on with on with your life - a life that is pretty good compared to what a lot of us have here in the US. Count your blessings and be thankful for what you have. Chill.
21
Thank you. Very beautiful.
7
(Re-posting my comment from another article as it remains relevant).
Say what you will about the Catalan side, but when you have millions of people on the streets and your country is disintegrating, the national Spanish government bears a great deal of responsibility. Having read about the issues now in some depth over the last few weeks, I believe all of this could have been avoided if the Spanish government were to either have allowed a sanctioned referendum, or amended the constitution to give the Catalans more protections as an autonomous region. Constitutions are not sacred documents. They can and should be amended, as we have done many times in the US. A little more flexibility from Madrid would have gone a long way towards a peaceful and equitable resolution.
7
The secessionists have been long asked by the Catalan parties which are opposed to independence to hold a snap election, which Mr. Puigdemont has the right to call for and it would be completely legal under the Spanish Constitution. They have refused to do that, very aware that the Catalan vote has not moved: secessionists do not carry more than 50% of the vote, clearly insufficient to declare independence. They know that, and this is why instead they try to force a referendum, knowing full well that the Spanish Parliament can't sanction it under the Constitution, so they could present themselves as victims of repression. Interestingly so, in a region where the regional government (i.e. Mr. Puigdemont and his secessionists allies) control a police force 16,000 strong, has full control over the educational system, which is 100% Catalan immersed (no math, science, literature, social studies, etc. in Castilian in any school in Catalonia), the health system, the social services system, the public television and radio, a network of "embassies" around the world, official representation in the EU, etc.
The secessionists called the prior regional election as one in which they asked Catalan citizens to give them overwhelming majority so they could push for independence. The citizens of Catalonia chose instead to vote by a 52% majority to parties that oppose secession.
20
the separatist alliance represents 48% of the vote? that doesn't seem like enough to go ahead with secession. but what do I know.
25
Spain is showing to the world that we can produce politicians that are equal to the best efforts of the anglo-saxons. Puigdemont is at least as otustanding as Trump or Farage, if not better
22
Ultimately Puigmont doesn't really have the support of the majority of Catalonians even by his own measure. The referendum results of October 01 showed only support from 37 % of Catalonians at best. It's not enough support to break up a Democratic country and force 7.5 million people to get a new passport and leave Spain and the EU. If he declares independence unilaterally tomorrow it will be an illegitimate act and Spain will be justified to intervene with article 155. This is an outcome that no one in Spain wishes for.
26
All signs look like Spain helped to make independence movement a real majority
1
Spain does not need win by force as the best weapon is democracy and law and Spain has plenty of it. Why has M Puigemont not called for a legal election today?. The ball was in his court and he missed it. Is he afraid that the majority of Catalans is not, after all, on his side?
22
Why does Francisco Rajoy not call for elections next weekend, with a guarantee not to send in thugs from Madrid's national military police to disrupt voting, steal votes, and assault women and children?
The numbers in fact show that a majority of Catalans braved Nouveau Franco's thugs, voted, and voted OVERWHELMINGLY for independence.
Now put that in your porrón and drink it.
1
I find this continual chorus from the Spanish, "the constitution says it", "it's illegal" akin to the argument used by terrorists. If they hate the Catalans as much as they seem to on these forums, then why not let it go?
6
Wait. You've seen terrorists relying on constitutional law? I missed that.
16
Hate the Catalonians? We love Catalonians and we love Catalonia. They are our family. They are my little niece and my aunt to me. And to millions of Spaniards they are family as well. They are our boyfriends, or lovers, also coworkers and associates. We don't want Catalonia to be a foreign country and we don't want Catalonians to be foreigners. Hate, that would be so easy...
13
Gordon,
Please do not identify Catalans with separatists.
My whole family and I are Catalans, but we feel that we are blessed to live in a liberal democracy founded on a democratically voted Constitution.
I know you are probably thinking now, "You are not a "real" Catalan; real Catalans want independence."
That is not true. Most Catalans are sensible enough to know that independence is a chimera and a distraction for real 21st century problems.
We just want to go back to our normal lives, and we want this insanity to end before we end up in poverty and misery.
1
I was born in Spain, proud of it, living in the US since my twenties, equally proud. I am relieved to see how your paper has been reporting news from Catalonia, for the pain inside is tremendous: to watch one great country being broken into two illegally. It's been decades of indoctrination in the schools: elementary textbooks that situate Catalonia outside the Spanish map, historical lies like Catalonia was a kingdom, and censorship of the Spanish language, "talk to me in Catalonian, or English, or French, but please no Castilian, even though I am bilingual, like the vast majority of Spaniards." Four languages (not dialects) are spoken in Spain, four distinct cultures. One is trying to impose its radical views dragging everybody else who disagrees. I ended up studying in the US because the university of my choice, in Barcelona, held classes in Catalonian to prevent Castilian speakers from enrolling. This was in the eighties. Yes, Catalonia, like all other regions in Spain, was indeed fiercely oppressed during Franco's times. I vividly remember. But from being the oppressed, a minority has now become the oppressor, attempting to impose their rule on the rest of us, including Catalonians (over 50% by all accounts), using big words like "repression" and "we the victims". This is not what democracy looks like. So, one request of the New York Times. You repeatedly publish pictures of the "estelada" (Catalonian flag) in your articles. How about one big picture of the Spanish flag?
32
It very simple, Raphael Minder is fully on board with the separatist, and as the journalist will say, its his POV…… for what is worth. In addition is more sexy to sell the highly nostalgic idea of Calonian freedom fighters figthing against backyard loving Franoc spaniards, it just sells more.....
"I am relieved to see how your paper has been reporting news from Catalonia."
Confirming the suspicions of many, who wonder if Times reporters fear being denied access to corrupt Madrid politicans if they report objectively and factually.
Putin just endorsed Catalan independence. Oh dear!
10
The Spanish government told Puigdemont that they would move to direct rule with or without new elections. They also could not guarantee that they would not ban parties that support independence in the next elections. These parties have more than half of the current delegates. Additionally, Madrid is rounding and up and arresting leaders of peaceful grassroots movements, planning to intervene in the content of the Catalan television station and the school curricula. The same police that went around Catalonia beating up voters on Oct 1 are still in the port of Barcelona awaiting orders to control and occupy the region. Taking all that into account, I think Puigdemont has been wise to back off from holding elections until there are some guarantees, if that's possible. Otherwise, by comparison a declaration of independence seems to me like the more attractive option.
3
You are right! All the points you are making, factual statements, statements based on reality and on the words of Mr. Rajoy, are being ignored by others who comment here, motivated by hatred toward Catalans and distorting the situation there. Spain, under the excuse of "the Constitution" is planning to impose dictatorial powers on Catalonia. Spain is acting like a Third World dictatorship, of the kind that aligned themselves with the United States in Latin America and elsewhere. Rajoy came by to visit Trump to get his support. If I were a Catalan, I would not accept anything else but independence and becoming a sovereign state, even under the threat of an economic embargo and sanctions. You have to stand for what is right, for what is just, for what the people yearn for.
1
Quick note: For what the rich people in Catalonia yearn, you mean. The rest of your message, bad hyperbole and misstatements.
6
The Spanish courts are nor "rounding up and arresting leaders of peaceful grassroots movements." You make it sound as if there were hundreds! They have arrested two people who commanded a mob of 40,000 (forty thousand) to siege an official building for 20 hours so that the police could not conduct an investigation. Oh, and they destroyed three police cars for a value of almost $200,000.
I guess "peaceful" is in the eye of the beholder...
Every European country excepting the Danemark, the Czech Republic and Slovakia, are an amalgam of smaller entities. As late as 1918, the German Empire consisted of sovereign grand duchies and kingdoms, many with their own diplomatic corps and all with their own armed forces. The French Revolution, the Napoleonic Wars and World War I but an end to all the dynastic states except Spain. The issue for Spain is under what conditions can a sovereign state devolve sovereignty on one if its component territories without compromising existence?
Under what conditions can a sovereign state allow secession of a non-sovereign component without compromising its sovereign rights? Czechoslovakia did it peacefully because each component wished to be rid of the other. The US fought a civil war to prevent it, all the pre-Civil War noise about, “The great sovereign state of X” to the contrary.
Spain is the only country left in Europe put together by dynastic arrangements. With each marriage and inheritance, territorial components were guaranteed their own civil government and domestic arrangements. Granting “sovereignty” to any one of these former kingdoms and territories will create an existential crises for the Spanish state. It is old fashioned and an Alt Left no-no to say so, but it’s the duty and right of a sovereign state to survive. Anything less is an invitation to anarchy.
12
Slovakia & the Czech republic, merged after WWI with the condition that they could separate if they so wished.
If Mr. Puigdemont was prepared to call new elections for the Catalan parliament, that seems to be exactly the kind of compromise people have been looking for to break a stalemate. Why would the government insist on imposing emergency powers and rule from Madrid if elections were to be held? Elections would delay any declaration of independence and allow for a normal political debate in which each side would have the opportunity to demonstrate what they claim: the support of a majority. If the separatists won convincingly, it would be reasonable to negotiate a legal route towards possible independence that would guarantee the rights of Catalans opposed to independence. If they lost or achieved another narrow win for a divided coalition, it would be reasonable to maintain the status quo and negotiate new terms of autonomy to achieve a broader consensus. It's not a crisis impossible to solve in a world where we see chaos in Syria, Iraq, Somalia, Myanmar, Venezuela, and other places. Puigdemont's proposal to call elections should have been accepted and the provisions for emergency rule suspended. The national government isn't content to prevent an illegal secession (a reasonable goal), they want Catalans to stop talking or thinking about it. That stubborn and misguided effort at repression will ultimately fail and it will take a toll on the national parties, an already compromised monarchy, and the country itself.
5
We don't know what the negotiations were. Puigdemont probably refused to withdraw the independence statement he officially declared (since that is the only weapon he has against Madrid), and Madrid probably insisted that the threat of independence be removed before agreeing to drop 155 (to avoid being in the same situation after the elections or a month from now). They have both painted themselves in a corner and it is out of their hands.
5
I think understanding the end of this phase it is helpful to understand the constraints on each side. It is a tortured process because while Spain will uphold the Constitution and law, politically, it has never offered a positive program that would begin to address the separatist grievances. The Catalan government has never addressed the deep dissatisfaction that exists among non-separatist Catalans and Spaniards in general. Spain is constrained by the law and by its membership in the EU. The renegade Catalan government is constrained by popular pressures and the exposing of the separatist myths. There are manifestly negative economic consequences to this rebellion. A substantial portion of the Catalan population, lets say half, is opposed to a unilateral declaration. And the EU will never accept a new member under such circumstances. There is no easy off ramp from this kind of a rebellion. The best Spain can do is to be patient, enforce the laws and seek to avoid further humiliating the less powerful Catalan government. The sooner both sides agree to a resumption of constitutional normalcy, elections and then the political discussions on grievances from both sides can follow.
27
You mean the Catalonian President and his Government should completely surrender 100% to the Spanish Government, and expect fairness in the followng dialogue - if any took place at all?
What sort of basis is that for open and equal talks? Wouldn't it be a bit like George Washington surrendering to the British and saying "Now, can we talk about those taxes please, pretty please"?
3
Following a constitution and the Statute of Autonomy is only a surrender in the sense that it is recognizing that government has limits and that the renegade parliament put the cart before the horse. This is not a contest between equals. Sovereignty plainly resides in the whole of the Spanish people. Catalans helped to write the constitution and voted for it overwhelmingly (90+%). Despite the passion of the separatists, they did not have a unified population, they caused an economic and social crisis, and they failed to secure any support from the EU. The Catalan government must return to legality, as a regional government, before the grievances can be addressed. Otherwise it is blackmail and extortion. We will declare independence next week if we do not get what we want. As for George Washington, I think he risked his life, fortune and sacred honor to overthrow an imperial relationship. In contrast Catalans have the same legal and political rights as every other Spaniard as well as a high standard of living compared to the Spanish average.
11
That's a very well-considered reply rdeirio, and does indeed put one side of the debate, and very likely the legal side as well. But The American Revolution was technically illegal as well, won by force of arms. Even if there was some International Court in those days, the principle of "No taxation without representation" would have had a few heads being scratched.
Back in 1990 the Slovenian Referendum was also techincally illegal under Yugoslav law, and after a brief show of arms by Yugoslavia with 100 deaths (to cut the story short) and a peace brokered by the EU, Slovenia achieved Independence AND was recognised by the EU, getting membership in 2004.
This is the age of the Referendum, and what Spain should do is sanction a referendum. That is not against the Constitution as long as the Spanish Parliament approves it, and if that were a YES, then the problems of the Constitution could be sorted, probably taking a few months if neccessary. The heat would be off, and it's quite possible the vote could be a NO.
Personally I don't take sides for yes and no, but I do for a democratic self-determination referendum to be held peacefully and without interference.
"The vote, however, took place without legal guarantees and with most Catalan opponents of independence staying away in protest."
This is certainly misleading. They stayed away because they were afraid to go to the polls and express their points of view because of the hardline presented by Madrid. Let's face it, there have been gross mistakes by both sides. Now each side is backed in a corner. We know that is the worst place to be.
10
2.3 million voted nevertheless and the results were remarkably identical to the consultation that took place 2 years ago. Only 36-37 % of Catalonians want independence and the movement has little support from the rest of Spain, which has a right to be consulted in the matter. No matter how we look at this at the end of the day there is no legitimacy in declaring independence unilaterally.
11
Wrong. 58% of Catalans voted, with 90% voting in favor of independence. In and country, that is a majority.
Most stayed away because the vote was a charade.
Once again, a smart move by the crafty Puigdemont. He wants the historic record to show that Catalonia’s independence was declared only *after* passage of 155. Which also creates credible case to approach the EU on grounds of violation of human rights and democracy. Finally, by having independence declared as act of regional government, not him alone, he’s muddying legal basis for his potential arrest.
The ball is now firmly in Madrid’s court, and the offer is very clear: don’t vote for 155 and Catalonia will remain an undisputed Spanish territory, for another day/month/year/forever. Vote, and the cookie starts to crumble immediately, starting timers across Europe, indeed the entire world, to legitimize/recognize Catalonia’s independence, plus a separate one in Madrid to vote Rajoy out by an increasingly sore electorate.
The comparison to a good bullfight is irresistible. In what looks like his third and final act as Spanish citizen, Puigdemont has unveiled the muleta towards Rajoy. Will Rajoy and co. take the bait and charge? Hopefully, they won’t. Good evening.
3
Not really, 155 is in the Spanish Constitution and completely legal. Most other countries in the Unions have a similar law and they have all agreed this is a moment to use it. I am afraid with or without 155, the separatist movement is in big trouble.
7
If this were a tv show about a crafty politician and his antics, I might agree. But the secessionists' trampling of their own laws (even the CUP, after the last elections admitted the 47.7% vote did not authorize them to declare independence; yet even their commitment to democracy has been perverted in this mad rush to nowhere) has brought consequences far beyond Puigdemont & co.: a flight of 1500 Catalonian headquarters (whose importance has been irresponsibly poo-pooed by secessionists, virtually all of whom are civil servants drawing salaries on the public dime and so have little idea of what even a small loss of market share means for employment, etc.) in just one week and the evidence of no international recognition (two lies, or at best examples of wishful thinking, now exposed for what they were). This is one kind of party-boss intransigence pitted against another (and the PP has handled this issue just as irresponsibly for years); but Catalonia has far more to lose from it (the PP will go down the tubes one way or another: either outflanked by CC owing to its snowballing corruption scandals or because it will seriously overplay its hand with 155), including whatever reputation (even elsewhere in Spain) it had for level-headed seriousness & openness. If you spit long enough in the face of your main market (the 80% of the Spanish market that isn't Catalonia), sooner or later many will decide to take their business elsewhere or have it move closer (along with the jobs).
5
Article 155 is based on a similar article in the (West) German constitution which was basically dictated by the US and others of the Allies in 1949.
Fractures abound; in Scotland, Catalonia, Ukraine, Slovenia, the Basque Region and the Kurds...the list goes on. Sadly, this desire appears to be coming to the shores of the US vis a vis the bigly divide that has deepened amongst us since this last November's election. Grexit, Brexit, any other type of exit pending...this world was supposed to come together and herald a new age of globalism where all of us were to become citizens of the world and in doing so perhaps give up armed struggles and realize that the common bonds of humanity were stronger than the petty regionalism of nationalistic tendencies.
As for Spain - a country that I love dearly and have visited at length, it pains me to see this wrenching divide amongst its citizens. Actually, it frightens me as it is the new contagion. What we need is a uniter, someone with moral authority, to step forward with a plan to bring us all back together while embracing and celebrating our unique differences. Where is this leader?
5
'Fractures abound..."from" the shores of the US' might be truer.
1
Two nationalisms here. One intolerant, aggressive and seeks to impose itself on others. The other conspicuously peaceful and seeks only self-determination.
The Catalan President was to call fresh elections. Madrid had indicated it would not enact art. 155 [direct rule] if elections were held, but then reneged on that. In the circumstances what can the Catalan government do?
Not an original thought, but if and when a declaration of independence is made in Barcelona please consider your own history. Should the newspaper's editorial state that "The action of the Continental Congress in declaring unilateral independence from Britain was highly irresponsible and does not represent the sentiments of the majority of stakeholders in the colonies. We urge moderate forces to rescind this so-called "Declaration of Independence" and enter into sincere negotiations with King George III and his ministers to assure greater autonomy for the 13 colonies within the British Empire."?
4
You are using the wrong analogy.
Don't use the American independence to compare. Spain is a democracy and Catalonia is not a colony.
Better use the American Civil War as the comparison. Disloyal and wealthy South trying to secede because they didn't like the government. You might know the end of that: 600 thousand died and America is still one country. The South still have grievances. But in the movies, they are the bad guys.
12
What a mess.
5
"Mr. Puigdemont faced instead broadening descent in his own ranks"
dissent?
13
What do you do, when your bluff is called?
20
Spain apparently thinks it can win by force... which at best will lead to a Catalonia which is an occupied territory prone to a long term insurgency in the heart of Spain and the heart of Europe.
Spain should pull back from this, negotiate another referendum where people are encouraged to vote and not kept away by force. Take time, make amends, promise to do better and maybe the Catalans will want to stay.
19
I'm sorry. It's not for the Catalans alone to decide on that. National integrity belongs to the total population of Spain. Any modern democracy has the same provisions. If Texas wanted independence all America would need to vote.
It's easy to be on the side of the self-made victims. You have been fooled by propaganda.
12
It seems you are unaware that the Supreme Constitutional Court deemed the referendum illegal because it considers that all Spaniards must vote on Spain's sovereignty
8
Force? The only ones using force have been the Catalan independentists, which superseded the legal mandate in the Parliament and spat in a Constitution that has kept peaceful progress in Spain for many decades. Do keep up.
6
“Even the trial of Kafka wasn’t as Kafkaesque” is right. From the get go the independent movement was unlawful and set up to fail. Today they are too scared to call elections (they know they would lose) or to declare independence (they know they will go to jail).
The sad part is that Catalonia had autonomy well beyond most states. They even had embassies in other countries paid by public money.
Moved by greed their incompetent leaders have hurt Catalonia more than anyone in history.
39
And so the logical response by Madrid would be to let the independence movement fail of its own accord. Madrid could be restrained and ignore unlawful actions until the basic human rights of those in Catalonia are infringed. At which point, take the minimal steps to protect people's rights, not sweeping measures like replacing the local government or taking over media.
Madrid's overly aggressive response will lead to eventual Catalonia independence.
3
Sorry, Sam, but you're wrong about the autonomy of Catalonia. Once the real Spanish government is playing with the laws (for their own interests), here in Catalonia, we have just had less income from the central government, increasing our problems to maintain good care of public hospitals, schools, universities, etc. .. attacks against culture and language !!! Perhaps you do not know, but Mr. Rajoy's relative has several members who support Franco's dictatorship, they never allow parliament to vote a simple law to give families the opportunity to recover their parents, fathers, sons, grandfhaters and grandmothers, killed during the dictatorship.
Unfortunately, the news never showed the real numbers, where more than 80% of Catalans want to vote in a referendum, which does not mean that they want independence, just a better relationship with the central government.
Just one more line, with all the mistakes Mr. Puigdemont made in recent days, he was the only real politician in this mess, wanted to sit down and talk with the central government with a NO in response.
I invite you to visit Catalonia and enjoy the culture and environment that we have, and please don't trust all news caming from spanish journals!!
4
Please speak the truth:
Franco is still dead. Spain is a democracy.
Puigdemont was invited to talk to the Congress in May. He didn't show. He was invited to talk in front of the Senate (and stop 155) today and he didn't show.
8
Spain returns to 1939.
3
More like 1936, when governments were so weakened that revolution broke out.
The secessionists want to bring Europe back to the 18th century when Xi Jinping is bringing China into the 22nd century!
5
At least Spain is not stuck in the 19th century, like the US under Trump.
4
How Pathetic are Catalonians Governors, extreme nationalists that will never stop until they reach their real objective: brake Catalonian and Spanish cohabitation. They are not oppressed but only want to brake the rules to cover they inability to manage the economic crisis years ago and their corruption. They were "lucky" October 1 as some images were shown that mislead many people. But today their intentions are crystal clear and NO COUNTRY in the world but Venezuela is supporting them. I hope this process ends as soon as possible and no more damage is done to Catalonia and Spain.
36
Who behaves like a dictatorial country is spain, sending the police acting against the people (suppose the police protect the citizens do not punish them) and arresting politically, without arguments, people who have just lead a peaceful rally, as Venezuela does it.
Unfortunately, spain thinks that they still live in the XVIII century with their monarchy and must to keep the territory, no matter the price, but people has changed in the good way and start to see it, other countries included. (see last Belgium prime minister declarations).
1
let catalán people vote.
1
Vladimir, It seems that you hold Spain to one standard and Catalonia to another. The leftist occupy protests of 2011 were violently broken up by the Catalan regional police, the Mossos, on the orders of the Catalan govt. Puidgemont's party was in charge. The Mossos' repeated charges and anti-disturbance police tactics were the same or worse than on October 1. The justifications for the use of force were exactly the same. The law either allows and controls the use of violence or it doesn't. It certainly does not authorize/disauthorize violence based on your political program.
7
Anachronistic tribalism. Those who forget the lessons of history are condemned to repeat it. Looking forward to a Europe as it was until the 19th century.
14
Sure, you must be longing for the good ol British Empire. But not to worry, you guys are gonna have such a party with the Brexit. It's gonna be great, it's gonna be lovely, and you're gonna pay for it. Cheers!