Doubtful reporting: "On Oct. 1, thousands braved national police wielding truncheons to vote in a contentious independence referendum for Catalonia, even after it was declared illegal by the Spanish government and courts"
The report is full of charged words" "thousands braved" "police wielding truncheons" as if these people were doing something normal and not something that the Catalan courts themselves had declared illegal. Moreover, It makes it sound as if incidents occurred everywhere rather than in isolated cases. No responsibility is given to the Catalan government for the hammering propaganda regarding a supposed oppression by the central government that has led to this pass. The use of government funds to feed the propaganda, the difficulty of Spanish speaking parents to have their children educated in their language, the pressure to remove store signs in Spanish, etc. The event is presented without its context. This crisis is a creation of leaders who dreamed of a nation regardless of negative and destructive consequences. I hope it doesn't get any worse.
5
Claiming to have the moral authority to independence with only 48 percent of the vote, let alone a mere majority is wrong. Any claim to independence should require a super majority of at least two thirds to demonstrate an overwhelming support. I felt the same way about Brexit. Monumental changes should require monumental support, not some bare 50 percent one vote margin. This is the same reason that the US Senate is so much more a deliberative body, and stabilizing force than the House of Representitives.
5
Four arguments against Catalan independence refuted:
1. The referendum is illegal/a sham etc. Refutation: It might be under Spanish Law but when a large enough group people wish to gain independence, the laws of the entity that they seek independence from do not always apply. Example: the US creating itself from a British colony or the exit of Montenegro from the short lived country Serbia and Montenegro by referendum.
2. Catalan nationalism is evil and divisive. Refutation: Why then is Spanish nationalism benevolent especially given its violent track record during the Franco era?
3. The referendum is not representative. Refutation: The referendum could easily have been more representative but the heavy handed Spanish efforts to block it made it less so. As it stands a 43% sample (even if it is a non-random and biased sample) of a population is a huge one and very predictive of the likely outcome of the entire population. Additionally if over 90% of a 43% sample voted one way, you need only 1 in 5 of the population that did not vote to vote the same way to get a 51% majority of the entire registered Catalan voter population.
4. The lack of EU backing will hobble any future Catalan state. Refutation: This may well be true but practicality is hardly the sole consideration when a people decide on such an emotional issue. If practicality were solely important why wouldn't Austria want to merge with Germany or Belgium with France etc, BTW this also reflects poorly on the EU.
5
It might be illegal? The Catalan parliament's own lawyers told them as much. No court in Catalonia, the rest of Spain or the EU has ever supported the case for self-determination. The Catalan separatists don't even try to enter the cases because they know what they are doing is overthrowing the legal system and saying the ends justify the means. The international community might have some sympathy in a case like South Sudan or Kosovo where there is oppression, or in remedying a colonial conflict. The Catalans are privileged economically and have the same legal and political rights as all Spaniards. Lastly, the Catalan government with its extensive autonomy has been fueling the movement. It subsidizes the media, promotes a monolithic view of culture in schools and governs corruptly in the name of the people (the 47% who favor independence). Regional chauvinism and class privilege run amok. The EU, the business community and the response of the non-nationalists has laid bare what everyone knows to be a reckless drive for secession.
5
"When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness"
3
I would add to my previous comment that there is nothing unusual about a place that was once part of a larger country becoming independent, although such independence is sometimes corollary to the disappearance of the larger country. The following are only some of the countries that are now independent but were part of another country 50 years ago: Bangladesh, Slovakia, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Ukraine, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kosovo, Croatia, Uzbekistan, Georgia, Moldavia, Armenia, Slovenia, Macedonia, Bosnia.
2
When there was a referendum in Scotland on secession from the United Kingdom, the British government allowed it to proceed without interference. The Scottish voted against independence but I am pretty sure that, if the British police had behaved the way the Spanish police behaved during the Catalonian referendum, the Scottish people would have become angry enough to vote for independence. The best way to avoid a crisis is a British-style non-alarmist response to referenda. Surely, Catalonia has as much right to decide for itself whether it wants to be part of Spain as Scotland has to decide for itself whether it wants to be part of the United Kingdom.
4
Those from the US should only imagine if some people in Ohio called an election to secede from the US, and consider how would the rest of the country respond. The vote and movement are not constitutional. There are no grounds for independence and the people of Cataluña are by no means oppressed. Then again, if it were Texas seeking independence I think we'd all feel: "go for it!"
7
For the last two weeks I was a witness to rapidly unfolding historical events in Catalonia. We arrived in Barcelona on October 2 and left on October 18. I saw a rapid escalation of threats and violence by Prime Minister Rajoy of Spain to dismantle what was left of Catalonia's autonomy. I witnessed the repeated requests by Catalan President Carlos Puigdemont for negotiations and talks with the Spanish government. His pleas fell on deaf ears; neither the Spanish government nor the European community recognized his requests. I saw the wishes of a people for peace and dignity ignored. I attended demonstrations of hundreds of thousands of Catalans that were organized within days and were peaceful and joyful and sad. And yet through it all there was a quiet dignity and pride that could be felt through the songs, and speeches and the candlelight vigils. All the Catalans want is to be heard and recognized. And yet, from what I witnessed, Rajoy seemed determined to crush their will for self-determination. The one image that always stays with me is that of being at a march, surrounded by flags and candles and people talking and then suddenlly hearing the loud sound of a helicopter descending upon us and the crowd proudly holding up their candles and flags and shouting "Occupiers Go Home!" I hope it is not too late for the Spanish government and the international community to listen.
3
A great emotional speech Stella. However, none of what you said has a logical argument behind it. What's there to listen to when all the secessionist politicians who've harangued these people have violated laws systematically.
5
What was left of Catalonia Autonomy! My goodness, separatist hyperbole at its best.
3
The government of Spain has continuously said that it is willing to negotiate, under the rule of law. But the Catalan government insists on negotiating issues that directly oppose Spain's Constitution. Are you aware of any democratic leader who would be willing to violate the constitution that he or she has sworn to uphold?
Regarding the candles and flags marching down the street, it may seem exotically emotional for you, but Europe has suffered nationalist marches one too many times. Personally, I believe that the people's sovereignty is represented by congress, not by a mob, no matter how colorful it may be.
And as a person now living in Catalonia, do not forget to mention the persecution of the silent majority of non-nationalists, who are suffering the harassment exercised by the more radical and violent elements of the supremacist movement.
Lastly, I will give you a tip: do not let the nationalists hear you calling "Carles" by the name "Carlos". Using Spanish is is big no-no in the nationalist paradise.
9
How deeply sad for Spain and Catalonia. A prosperous, educated, worldly region compromised itself and its core values by allowing a mediocre leader, Puigdemont, seek a nonsense confrontation with the central government led by another mediocre man, Rajoy, who has been the stooge of a deeply corrupt party and elite. Now the fear should be how Catalans will react and what will the Armed Forces do? Spain's tortured history repeatedly shows that compromise and reconciliation aren't integral parts of the state. How tragic that things have come to such a miserable palce.
6
I do not understand why so many readers take the time to voice their opinions on a topic about which they know so little.
10
Those ignorant readers are taking as model the President of the United States of America in all his clueless glory.
1
And how George, are you able to distinguish between those who “know so little” and those who know a great deal? Let me guess. Those who agree with you know a great deal and those who don’t are ignoramuses.
4
Dissolving a working parliament to force a new election, because you do not like the way people voted, is undeniably fascism.
3
Yeah right! It does not matter that the Catalan Parliament , with forcadell up front, the one who said that spanish parties in Catalonia were enemies of the catalan people, stripped those representatives who do not think like her of their rights to ram through illegal legislation (even recognized as such by the legal services of the same parliament) . Of course this is casually irrelevant as we know that separatists can do as they please, disregard what they do not like and make up rules and laws that only suit their purposes. There has only been one elected democratic parliament in Europe that had done this before. Need any clues? place: germany, time , the thirties. But yes, everything and everybody that donot fit separatists’ workdwview is labeled fascist. No surprises here
10
Francesc, can you elaborate on the reasons why the Catalan parliament is "working"? From here, it does not seem to be working. To put it nicely, what is being published lately does not tell a story of oppression to catalans. It is rather a story of oppressed (in the 40'-70') that as soon as they have a chance (10'-20') they become the oppressors. And they are so focused with their ultimate goal that they are not even aware of it. Elections seem to be the best way for the people to speak up and to try to find a solution that is not too damaging to anyone.
4
Puigdemont violated both the Spanish and the Catalan constitution. Letting him get away with that was not really an option.
11
Time to remove the phony king and prime minister.
3
Dramatic situation, no doubt, but the Catalan leader's performance seems conceived by Groucho Marx. Puigdemont declared the secession of Catalonia ...and suspended it eight seconds later !. At this moment nobody knows what the real situation is because Groucho Puigdemont only answers with confusing and generic allusions to his will to negotiate. Funny
7
Um...the South seceded and we went to war, right ? They had a "distinct culture", certainly a "peculiar institution."
Why is this different and where does it stop? Northern Italy? Sicily? Scotland? California?
4
The Catalan separatists are untroubled by their own logic. They overthrow the Statute of Autonomy and declare it null and void (Sept. 6 and 7). Today they declare that the Spanish government in restoring the Statute and Constitution is committing a coup d'etat. As President Puidgemont recently said without any shame, only the Catalan Parlament can remove a president according to the Statute! The ends justify the means when one operates in such a cynical and lawless manner. The rules of the game matter not. With Article 155 the cat and mouse game is coming to its legal end. The tortured political rhetoric, sadly, will continue. Spain should uphold the law, call for regional elections, defend pluralism and develop a positive political program within the boundaries of the Constitution.
8
The boycott of Catalan products whose factories aren't domiciled outside Cataluña are the natural enemies of Spaniards fed up with the whims & lies of the Catalan secessionists who think they're superior.
The massive exodus of Catalan companies to other parts of Spain in the past 2 weeks demonstrate this.
The boycott of anything Cataluña - made is waking up the secessionists to a new reality. From wanting to contribute less to the national treasury to hoping for the kindness & solidarity of the rest of Spain to pay for their autonomy's overheads.
6
Facts about a new referendum
1. If only 1 out of 5 registered Catalan voters who did not (or could not) vote in the October 1st referendum, vote YES in favor of independence.
2. If everyone who voted on Oct 1st, votes the same as they did on Oct 1.
Then the independence movement will get 51% of the registered voters (that is every single registered Catalan voter) in their favor and a new referendum will pass with 100% participation.
2
Start with your desired outcome, cherry pick unverifiable numbers and dress up your statement as factual. You assume that the illegal referendum was an accurate tally and that there will be another one. Wrong on both counts. What we witnessed was a renegade parliament stage a facsimile of a referendum. The separatists organized it, administered it and announced the preordained results. Not a very sound foundation to extrapolate from.
7
Can't you understand that the sham referendum has no value? Citing figures for or against it do not matter anywhere
4
So what you are saying is that a country, once formed, should be expected to last till the end of human history. No environmental, social, political or economic developments are important enough for a nation state to be altered in any way. Obviously you guys were sleeping through history class.
1
I am a Spanish citizen from Barcelona. I am Spanish and I am also Catalan.
The NYT might have 122 Pulitzers but you could have 200,000. I would not care more. If the NYT has a correspondent that is so insultingly biased in Spain I will consider the NYT an unreliable source of information, no matter how mahy Pulitzers it has. The NYT is giving wrong and partial information to its readers.
Allegedly yoru correspondent is being financed by the Catalan Government for his books.
Can anybody explain me how he is giving voice to four opinions that are proindependence and does not quote anyone in the Catalonian unionist parties/ movement invluding the main opposition party in the regional Government?
I remind you that more that 1 million Catalans demosntrated in barcelona 2 weeks ago against independence and the violation of the rule of law.
NYT, thumbs down.
22
“Spanish political parties in Catalonia (and those who support them, I assume) are enemies of the Catalan people”, said Forcadell , now president of the Catalan Parliament. That’s democracy in action, we decide who is “own people” and whose fellow citizens are enemies. Does it ring a bell in American politics, btw? Some politician and party talking about real Americans and those who are not so real?
8
It's interesting how past European elite and US support for the break-up of the "independence" and "autonomy" of the former Yugoslavian states does not give rise to the same for Catalonia.
Neoliberal hypocrisy at it's best!
2
The breakup of Yugoslavia was accompanied by vicious land grabs by local military factions, sparking a decade long civil war with horrific atrocities committed and leaving 100,000 dead & milions displaced.
Zero comparison with Spain.
11
Sad situation for all Spaniards specially those that have lived in Catalonia for generations and have been subjected to discrimination based on the fact that they are not 100% Catalan (whatever that means). Catalan culture is a myth. Most of their customs are equal to the rest of Spain, specially Valencia, the Balearic Islands and Aragon. Catalonia was never more independent that any other area of Spain before feudal Europe starting forming nations. The closest they came was as part of the kingdom of Aragon which included other parts of Spain as well. The main reason why they have been able to indoctrinate and brain wash Catalan populace is due to the liberties and autonomy that region has enjoyed during the last 40+ years. Liberties that are greater that in places like Scotland. If the separatists are so sure of the will of the people why are they afraid to conduct elections where all the Catalans can vote without intimidation? Is the central government perfect? of course not, but is there a perfect government anywhere?
18
What is really wicked is how the pretend to be victims.
4
Puigdemont and Co squander 40 years of political and economic autonomy, cultural development, etc. All, for what? Very strange behavior when they don't even have a true majority nor a real plan to run a separate country.
4
The Catalonian independence movement is the culmination of what Freud called the narcissism of small differences. 40 years of nationalist control of education and the media have focused on magnifying these small differences to the point of gross distortion, rather than emphasizing the many things all Spaniards have in common (down to 500 years of shared history, family ties, and so on). Very toxic seeds have been sown over these years in ways that resemble totalitarian regimes of days past.
17
The Catalonian political leaders made a bad bet. Now they have plunged their region to possible military occupation. What they did is not secession or democracy, its rebellion. They should pray that Spanish prisons are not as bad when Franco ruled Spain.
7
20 years of pandering to the Catalans has given Spain this.
The schools teach in Catalan only, The signs are in Catalan only..Talk to many arrogant Catalan in Spanish and they respond back in Catalan. Yet they know Spanish. Now these ungrateful Catalans want more..Forget the 50 percent that dont want independence..
24
The rights of the Spanish speaking people of Cataluña, España, must be restored. That's next.
7
Viva La Independencia!....
3
... de España!
1
That Mr Minder should , once again, persevere with his misinformation is not at all susprising, considering the deluded company he keeps in Catalonia, what I find a crying shame is the fact that the NYT should still waste precious time publishing his half-truths and outright lies. Evidently, he fully condones the string of illegal actions that the separatist ilk has been taking and now he calls the central government’s move to keep and protect Constitutional order unexpectedly forceful when the government could and should have done this already on Sep 7 and especially after the Oct 1st tragicomedy but, no, it chose to wait and ask Mr Fudgemont to clarify his wishy-washy “ declaration of independence “. Enough already with such desingenuousness. Let the Rule of Law be restored and elections be held ( real, democratic elections, that is ) and maybe then this region will be able to progress. I fear that that will be very very hard though after the amounts of hate and dishonesty that the secessionist psycopaths have been destilling into society.
15
Let them fight it out.
1
Commom spanish people, fed up of lies, are moving towards a BOICOT against catalonian products to punish the separatism and obtein a fairer distribution of the jobs among the country
11
That is unfair, counter-productive, and opportunistic.
1
It seems that for those minority separatists Castilian is a dirty language and a dirty people. But all they have done in History was piggybacking on Castile, as a province of Aragon, which was united with Castile 500 years ago to form what we now know as Spain.
4
Let's hope the US doesn't get involved with the CIA arming the nationalist 'rebels' in a 'Catalonia Spring'...
4
Catalunya will be what the Catalans want it to be and against this there are no legal options or brute force that can prevent it
7
Try again in 500 years, no way it will happen.
4
Rajoy, Spain's leader, IS Catalonia's leader too.
9
I am a left of center voter and have always had to endure my friends’ comments that the NYT reporting is unbalanced. This article proves it. I have lived in Spain for 10 years and I am married to a Basque who has seen this local nationalistic play before. This piece makes it look as if Catalonia were repressed by Spain while the truth is that it enjoys very broad autonomy. Run a piece of how schoolchildren in Catalonia are indoctrinated from an early age to believe they are a different country to show how extreme the local government has become. Compare what would happen in the US if a State’s assembly were to declare unilateral independence. The two local leaders of protest groups are in jail on charges of sedition after inciting hundreds to destroy the cars and prevent the exit of police authorities from a local government building to investigate the referendum (declared illegal by the country’s constitutional court). What do you think would happen in the if someone invited a crowd to destroy FBI vehicles in front of a building in the US? Finally you end by quoting Podemos who is an extreme leftist party who admires and has cooperated with Venezuela’s government and is all about breaking down the state system. Why don’t you quote the president of the European Parliament, the President of the European Commission and the President of the European Council who all unanimously support of the Government of Spain’s actions. Catalonia is not Kosovo dear NYT.
33
You are right. This is a good read:
"Secessionist Urges in Catalonia: Media Indoctrination and Social Pressure Effects"
http://file.scirp.org/pdf/PSYCH_2017011315593181.pdf
2
Thank you, this article is very interesting
1
If Puerto Rico were to follow the example of Catalonia, what would be the US response?
Not an apt comparison. More apt, but still imperfect, would be to ask: If Texas were to vote a State Constitution organizing themselves like Puerto Rico, and upon the US Supreme Court declaring it unconstitutional, Texas' response were to dismiss the Supreme Court and claim outright independence, what would be the US response?
3
Probably would just let them go.
1
Negotiations are always more acceptable than what Rajoy is doing, and what he's doing is looking for a war. This doesn't get better with such a contemptible move by Rajoy because Catalans will see it as contempt for them and only feel even more inclined to secede.
3
The only dialogue the Catalan separatists want is how to secede. That is not a legal option. How can the central government accept that? We in the US have fought a civil war to prevent the South seceding. The Spanish constitution, which Catalonia voted in favor of by a large majority just over 40 years ago, provides mechanisms, without going to war, to address autonomous regions which severely flout the law and the Constitution.
8
I am Catalan anf I was dying for a reaction from the Spanish Government to restaure the rule of law
8
What is happening now is the culmination that of a 40 year quest by the quasi-fascist PP party to strip Catalonia of all of its autonomous powers. They couldn't achieve this objective through democratic means, so they use force instead. You will see in the next year as they take over Catalan TV stations, intervene in the schools, and in the police force. All of this is to promote an ideology of Spanish nationalism, one that revolves around Madrid. Catalan society overcame Franco, and it will survive this. What may not recuperate is Spain's tarnished image.
6
Don't let facts get in the way of a good story. The same political leaders you condemn as quasi fascist are responsible for the ongoing devolution of powers to the regional governments. The PP and PSOE have repeatedly turned to Catalan nationalists to form the Spanish government and the price has always been further devolution. Paradoxically these Spanish governments with alleged fascist tendencies have also surrendered aspects of sovereignty to the EU in an attempt to modernize the country and rejoin the European community after the return of democracy. I do not think the handful of remaining fascists in Spain support Spain's ongoing defense of democracy, rule of law, pluralism, integration into the EU or devolution of powers to regional governments. Next you'll say the Constitution of 1978 should be called "regime of 1978."
6
Evidently you haven't lived in Spain and/or Catalunya before.
8
"I received news of oppression and indoctrination by the Catalan government imposed on the peoples of Catalunya. That will end soon. Iberia belongs to Rome." Julius Caesar.
Catalonia is nothing without Spain. The so-called Catalonians who want secession have delusions of grandeur. Even the food in Catalonia, even in its capital Barcelona, is of poor quality. The rest of Spain has fantastic food. But the secessionist seem to think that they’re better than the rest of Spain. Kind of like Donald Trump thinks he’s better than the rest of United States. Lol.
11
Puigmont has gone from"breaking the Spanish Constitution is not a coup d'etat" to "enforcing the Spanish Constitution is a coup d'etat".
10
A good source in English for following this story is The Spain Report written by a UK expat. What we see among the secessionists is an extraordinary degree of cynical and mendacious media propaganda fuelled by ideological fanaticism. In this month of October 2017, it reminds of the putschist Bolsheviks of a century ago.
15
When Canada permitted a vote, their supreme court said that if Canada can be broken so can Quebec. Why is it that in the event of a hypothetically independent Catalonia it will be an indissoluble entity? Catalan provinces that vote to remain with Spain or seek a future referendum about returning to Spain and EU would be out of luck. The separatist commitment to democratic solutions is one-sided and propagandistic.
4
I am seeing many comments noting that Catalonia contributes more than any other regions in Spain. Please, check the link below from 2014, when this discussion was already being held in Spain.
1) With the exception of the Basque Country and Navarra, Taxes set up by the Central Government in Spain are the same across the country.
2) Autonomous regions (like Catalonia) can add or suppress additional taxation figures. Hence, if taxes are higher in Catalonia than in Madrid region is because Catalonia’s Government decided so.
3) Like with IRS, if you make more money you pay more money in taxes and guess what... Madrid pays more than Catalonia (see link) because that region is wealthier than Catalonia. Nobody is questioning that in Madrid and also the region remains prosperous. This is just common sense in a democratic society, the richest should help (and help) the not so rich.
Hope this helps with so much misinformation I am seeing here
https://elpais.com/economia/2017/09/07/actualidad/1504799988_582658.html
7
While there are deeply felt convictions amongst a large swath of the Catalan people, one cannot help but wonder how much Russian operatives have helped stoke the conflict via social media, bots and fake news.
3
The British tried the same tactic with the Irish as Rajoy is doing. The Irish merely ignored them and started their own parliament after 1916. It took a war and a civil war to eventually form their country. Very best wishes for the good people of Catalunya!
1
Catalonia has its own Parliament; has had it for a long, long time now. Not the same "tactic."
3
Sure, war is the answer! Just what Europe needs.
2
The majority of the Catalonian voted yes to the Spanish constitution. This constitution says that spain is an unity that can not be divided. The constitution also say the procedures to change itself ( if a majority of spanish want). Now a minority of people living in Catalonia want to impose the criteria of a minority an declare unilateraly the independence. What do you want Rajoy to do. Follow the constitution and one of its law the number 155
9
With that kind of thinking America would still be a colony of the UK.
1
The difference with us is that catalonia is not a colony , it is jusy two hours far from the "Metropoli". Also Catalonian are not bad treated are the richest in Spain
2
Facts:
Both the referendum and the independence bills were approved by the Parlament of Catalonia against legal advice provided by the in-house legal service. Both were suspended by the Spanish Constitutional court.
42% of the census voted in the referendum. Not surprisingly the Yes votes achieved a 90%. Hence, the independence has been/would be proclaimed with the support of ~38% of the census. This data, however, cannot be verified since the international observers paid by the Catalonian government did not validate the process and several irregularities have been reported by the media (people voting twice or more, irregular census used, etc.)
Article 155 of Spanish Consitution (the one used to suspend Cataolinan government) is copied from article 37 of the German Consitution and is similar to article 52 of Swiss Constitution, article 126 of Italian Constitution and article 4.4 of the US Constitution.
Spain scored 8.3 (Full democracy) in 2016's Democracy index issued by The Economist Intelligence Unit (for comparison: France 7.9; US 8.0; Germany 8.6) In Freedom House, Spain scores 94 out of 100 (France 90; US 89; Germany 95)
As per CIA World Factbook: "A peaceful transition to democracy following the death of dictator Francisco FRANCO in 1975, and rapid economic modernization (Spain joined the EU in 1986) gave Spain a dynamic and rapidly growing economy and made it a global champion of freedom and human rights."
10
Please, inform better before writing things like "stripping autonomy"... the autonomy of Catalonia remains intact, with all attributions in sanity, education, taxes... the Government of Spain is simply applying what the constitutional rules agreed by all the Catalan Government when elected, just the accepted rules of the game. Without democratic rules, any country becomes an anarchy, like when Catalan Government approved anti-constitutional rules against with the support of just 40% of the voters
14
No amount of your propaganda can whitewash that this is a wholesale undemocratic takeover of Catalonia by the PP party.
3
The autonomy will not be taken from over , and the application of article 155 of the Constitution is fully supported by both the opposition parties of PSOE and Ciudadanos, not just the PP government. This reports a very large majority of the country.
4
Both the NYT and some of the comments here seem to imply that Spain has a faulty democracy of sorts, half Franco's regime, half European style system. Spain has a full fledged democratic system, styled in the current German Federal system, highly ranked in reputable studies. Although these days it might be hard to distinguished some traditional democracies from banana republics, Spanish's system was at least given the thumbs up in this year's Economist index, unlike the US https://infographics.economist.com/2017/DemocracyIndex/
The NYT should resist the urge to stereotype. Franco died long ago, and - as SNL used to remind us - he is still dead. Let's not use him as a blunt excuse to take sides, or to justify illegal, antidemocratic and highly questionable behavior (how can one even imply that a vote without any sort of guarantees against fraud, one that breaks not only Spanish democratic rules, but also Catalan's, is a significant reason to declare independence?).
17
If the South decided to secede from the Union, why would this be any different?
4
It’s different because the rest of United States wouldn’t care.
After all the red states are begger states supported by blue states. Who needs them?
1
Ok so if white supremacists in the south want to secede, use their state government to override federal policy on civil and equal rights, and strip African Americans of their rights in so far as they are “enemies” would not people in blue states care? Would they so casually think, let them vote, every people is entitled to their own destiny and so? Or would they approve that the federal government steps even forcefully to defend American citizens’ rights, no
Matter what they think or look alike?
1
How is this in roughly an analogy to the current situation in Spain? Catalonia is not requesting autonomy to create a society to repress a minority population.
What is really sad is that whatever economic grievances independentistas might have had the damage they are causing to the economy of Catalonia has dwarfed them in scale and scope.
6
I'm Spanish, there're many foreigners that think this is something about Madrid against Catalonia, that's really wrong. In Spain it was difficult to find a Spanish flag, but since this issue began, you can see Spanish flags all over Spain to support the unity of our country. Many of you say that Rajoy is a dictator, but there's an agreement among the main parties in Spain: socialist and liberal parties support Rajoy decision of ivoking the 155 article.
21
yes, that involves to more than 16 000 000 of spanish
Besides language, how different is Catalonia from the rest of Spain?
The food is terrible in Catalonia.
1
That's why so many world-class chefs are Catalans, I guess.
Spain uses the same flawed territorial integrity excuse with Catalonia that it uses against Gibraltar to deny that the people have the right to self-determination. (And why it didn't prevent Kosovo from becoming independent). Google: ''Gibraltar – Territorial Integrity Academia'' (1 pg) for some interesting opinions.
1
Gibraltar is British and Spain doesn't have anything to do with it.
Spain hasn't recognize Kosovo as a country.
You’re misinformed, most Catalonians want to Remain in Spain.
6
Mr. Minder: if it isn't clear to you by now whether an "autonomous" election organized by Mariano Rajoy as the self-proclaimed president of Catalonia governing from Madrid with the assistance of a puppet government would "help to resolve the territorial conflict", it's time for you to hang up your journalist's notebook and find something else to do.
4
Quote from the article: “Josep Lluís Cleries, a Catalan Senator, told reporters on Saturday that Mr. Rajoy was suspending not autonomy in Catalonia but democracy.”
Prime Minister Mr. Rajoy can suspend Catalonia’s autonomy, but not the Catalonians’ hearts and minds, nor their aspirations for freedom to choose their own way of life and “pursuit of happiness.”
2
Catalonia was never Kingdom, it was a County of the Aragon Crown , with its capital in Zaragoza. It was never a nation and threfore it has no right of selfdetermination. 100 per cent of the residents of Catalonia speak spanish but only 50 per cent speak catalan, but all public documents of the regional goverment are in catalan. Did you know that all thr education is in catalan even though the families want it in spanish, also the other official language of Catalonia? Did you know that they indoctrinate the students in their nationalist ideology and teach hate of the Spanish people and nation?. Did you know that they preach nationalust ideology in the public tv channels and other media?
Did you know that russian hackers fill the internet with fake news to fuel the separatist movement?
,
16
Has the knowledgeable partridge heard that President Puigdemont intends to utter the Aragonese Oath as a fitting piece de resistance to Catalunya’ Declaration of Independence??
There isn't a single truth in the whole parade. Either very disinformed or consciously propagandistic. In fact, asking for someone to believe all those ludicrous ideas is an insult to that someone's intelligence. Let's better not speak of those who really believe all that's even possible.
1
I’m amazed about how superficial and gullible the international press is. A press that has been fooled by the very smart propaganda machine of the current regional government of Catalonia (perhaps unknowingly being helped by Moscow). From listening to most news stories, you would think that the “people of Catalonia” want separation from Spain while it minimizes the fact that over 50% of Catalans, like myself, want to be part of Spain. We are the silent majority subjected to unrelenting intimidation from radical secessionists. Unfortunately, coalition forms of government have maintained these secessionists in power for years allowing them to drive their hateful agenda and forcing their irrational independence movement down the throat of all Catalans.
41
Mr Minder has always been biased in this tragedy, not surprising given his friends at the Generalitat, so nobody should be surprised at yet another article brimming with falsities. Although ,this one is specially galling.
5
Animo Jordi! I know. We Spaniards know what you are going through. We know the "independentistas" have been doplying the most perverse propaganda for years on you and your children. I am sorry we didn't help you before...we were afraid of confrontation just like the silent majority in Catalonians was. You have woken us up. You are not alone anymore!
3
Now is your time, recover the streets and use the force of the votes in the next referendum, estamos con vosotros
Great skills of communicating for the separatism, women claiming the police has broken their fingers looking for an international camera, tellling horrendous abuses to the press, but absolutely false.. that is the truth, it is just communication, great demonstrations made but really bold people. To know the truth ask the Public workers ,the lawyers of the Catalan Parlament, they will certify that the coup was made by the catalan government...
Is it normal that from many years ago you will be fined when being a business owner and trying to label your business in spanish? Do you have to accept your children are being indoctrinated in school?
Viva España!
11
Spain doesn't want another 1933-1935 Civil War, but it's sounding more possible each day.
1
1936-39
3
I don't hope so, now Spain is more Spanish than ever, you can feel that is the streets full of Spanish flags in balcony and windows. Also Catauña doesn't have army and they say is a problem of culture but at the end of the day is a problem of money.
2
The issue here isn't really about Catalina nationalism it's economic. Catalonia is the breadbasket of wealth Madrid harvest and redistributes to other areas of Spain. Much like blue states sending more tax dollars to Wahington then they get back and red states getting more than they send to Wahington all about money.
Some people have argued that the blue states and northeast should declare themselves a separate nation. Heck, even Texas wants to succeed from the yoke of Wahington. In their case, they say it's about culture but its again really about money.
Many of us have grown weary of the red state welfare role, addled and lazy people (Read Hillbillie Elegy) who don't want to change or move to where the jobs are. There is a cancer of grievances and entitlement without a real desire to fix themselves within these red states that Catalonia sees with greater Spain. They want no more of it and neither should we of the red states.
3
Except that Madrid is as much of a breadbasket.
4
Like putting out a fire with gasoline.
4
Like Putin a fire with gasoline.
What superb irony. I cannot wait to the day that Spain has the gall and hypocrisy to (a) to vote at the UN in favor of any resolution favoring Palestinian independence and (b) condemn Israel for impeding a Palestinian State.
5
The second lead-in to the headline “Spain’s Leader Moves to Take Direct Control Over Catalonia” of the article by Raphael Minder says “It is an unexpectedly forceful attempt to stop Catalan secessionism in its tracks.”. Unexpectedly? Really? Where Mr. Minder has been? For the past weeks the execution of article 155 of the active Spanish Constitution of 1978, that gives the power to the Executive to “take the necessary measures to oblige the latter (Autonomous Community) to comply with those obligations or to protect said general interest”, has been widely debated in all sorts of official and unofficial forums, in Spain, Europe and the world, besides been requested to be put into action by many prominent figures of the Spanish society, which the Executive could have lawfully done several days ago. Despite all of these requests, the Executive has been extremely patient with the Catalan authorities, requesting in multiple occasion the return to the legality, furthermore supported by the Constitutional Tribunal, who declared illegal the last referendum. It is very clear that the execution of this prerogative of the Spanish government was not in any way unexpected, as Mr. Minder says. The solution to this problem is the dialog, in the manner provided by the constitution, thru democratic means, but before that dialog can take place, the return to the legality established by the Constitution and reaffirmed by the Constitutional Tribunal is an indispensable requisite.
11
These are the facts: As rancid and backwards as PP may be; as reckless as former prime minister Zapatero was in encouraging the overly radical first draft of l'Estatut; and as unhappy as some may be about the final form of l'Estatut per the ruling of the Constitutional Court; this whole affair was handled strictly within the law of a vibrant democracy. If anything, it demonstrated that the system works. What the separatists did after that is just an outright disregard for the rule of law in pursuit of their own agenda.
For those interested, here's an excruciatingly detailed account of how l'Estatut came to be. Please note, l'Estatut in its final form retains many of the Catalan demands, including a substantial improvement in their ability to keep tax revenue from Catalonia (about 50% of total revenue collected in the region at this point).
https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estatuto_de_Autonom%C3%ADa_de_Cataluña_de_2006
For those with attention to detail, please notice the position of Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya throughout, including voting *against* the version of l'Estatut that was eventually supported by 70+ percent of Catalans (later curtailed, legally, by the Constitutional Court).
7
Apologies for the long link, here's a shortened version http://bit.ly/2z14yfn
1
Remember when people start huffing about authoritarian regimes and Franco that there was a huge demonstration against the secessionist movement in Catalonia. The “referendum” was declared illegal and it’s not at all clear that the majority of people even voted. This reminds me of our own unhappy and bloody history of states seceding from the union.
5
The article 2 of Spanish constitution says that Spain can't be divided. To change that article and give to all the regions the opportunity to secede, all the Spanish people have to vote to change that article. The referendum in Catalonia was ilegal, there were many people who didn't vote because of that, and there're many shots of people who voted several times whitout any control. Eventhough, Puigdemont says that referendum was legal and is enough to declare independence. But what about the rights of catalan people who don't want the secesion?
8
It's disheartening to see such wildly different ideas of what democracy means and where anarchy becomes a ready-made substitute. Catalonia's aggrieved people principally claim that their Spanish citizenship costs them more than it benefits them. That's their reason for wanting to blow up Spain. I suppose the Upper East Side of Manhattan will never receive the full value its taxes pay for either. Would the same people who support Catalans be just as happy to support Upper East Siders in their rightful, democratic quest for self-determination? Free private schooling for everyone! A Matisse in every garage and a cheateubriand in every pot. The Manhattan Republic is beginning to breathe the air of self-reliance, and it's organic, and vegan.
7
Rajoy's heavy-handedness has escalated this crisis. Both of these 'leaders' need to resign.
Rajoy has the mentality of an old colonialist: if Catalonia wants out, why not? The Constitution is an old colonialist document; Moses did not find it alongside the Ten Commandments.
Anyone who supports the Franco-ist people in Madrid should remember the "right of self-determination," for which the United States once stood.
4
Is right of determination in US Constitution?
1
This has nothing to do with Franco.
A the root of the issue you will find a supremacist nationalist ideology and a corrupt Catalan government that believes it is above the democratic rule of law.
The US stood against a sesessionist movement in the South and the independence of a US state is illegal.
2
The US Constitution has a very clear provision on federal supremacy. The Declaration of Independence embodies the idea of self-determination but it is applicable because we were a colony. Catalans have the same legal and political rights as all other Spaniards.
Readers who are Dutch, or Portuguese: would you vote for Portugal to reunify with Spain? After all, Portugal is only independent because, during the War of Spanish Succession, the Castilian throne could only afford to crush one of two rebellions: Catalonia or Portugal. Both are merely feudal provinces that arose from the Reconquista of Spain from the Muslims who had successfully unified Hispania for centuries.
Spain was not considered a separate nationality until several centuries after that. They were a collection of Gallic (Galicia), Visigothic (Castile and Leon), Mediterranean (Catalonia) and forcibly converso (Andalucia and Granada) tribes united in their putative hatred of non Catholics (Native American slaves, Moors, heretics during the Inquisition; Protestants and Jews in the Netherlands - where they fled as part of a long tradition of Spanish debt and wealth being exported to other, more progressive regions).
Catalan independence might allow the rest of Spain to strengthen its own identity. The downside is, just like England, it would devolve into an ultra-conservative ethno-state in the absence of its most progressive region. I don't normally agree with her, but Amy Chua's book "Day of Empire: The Rise and Fall of Hyperpowers" is very instructive on this topic, both with respect to Spain, and the correlation of cultural tolerance with national success. -Brian R.
3
To my Catalan friends,
Are you willing to risk your lives and the lives of your children and their children, for a declaration of Independence?
I know you have real grievances about how your region has been disrespected by the central government. However, I plead with you to not go over the cliff by declaring Independence. Your quality of life will be changed in unpredictable ways, for decades to come. Unemployment, a huge concern for decades, is only going to worsen. The knock on effects of banks and other corporations leaving your region will be serious. Tourism has already suffered. I know Barcelona was fed up with the high number of visitors to their city, but many Catalan livelihoods depend on this source. "Mil euristas" are already suffering and having trouble making ends meet. What will happen if more people in the region lose their jobs? It is time to swallow your pride. Do not declare independence. Do not allow "rauxa" to dominate your "seny". Question what your own Catalan leaders are suggesting you do. You are not equipped to defend your region. I think leaders from most political parties have lost their way. If you declare Independence, you are going to enter a time of greater hardship and suffering than has been known since the 1940s. Think again.
16
Freedom is not negotiable. For freedom-lovers, we would rather eat table scraps than from the likes of a centralized controlling government, intend on a heavy hand to keep them in line.
1
The lesson of Fort Sumter - don't be the one to fire the first shot (and if nobody fires the first shot there won't be any shots at all).
1
All these nationalist movements in Europe and here in the U.S. should make us all very nervous. We are allowing history to repeat itself.
3
Spain, the nation, has a great history and one to be truly proud of. With its lights and its shadows it is one of the two great western cultures next to the British that has made the world what it is today.
There is much to improve, no doubt but we'll do it together. Cataluña is an essential part of our culture and our history, a vital organ. Viva Cataluña and Viva Spain !!!
4
The most popular theory on these comment pages goes: if California decided to secede, why doesn’t the federal government step in? For goodness sake, Catalonia is not a state, it is a region, Spain is a European state. Europe is where the cheese and A380’s come from. No, this is as if San Francisco decided to secede from California to become the 51st state. BUT, Europe is not stepping in here, yet. In Europe, adding a new member state like a Belgium or Luxembourg, sounds less of a big deal. This is Spain’s Premiere, Rajoy, who is stepping in, clumsily, and not handling the regional politics properly.
Rajoy, the Spanish Premiere, has made a move widely viewed (I am an EU citizen, an academic, living in Scotland – my views on independence are neutral) as unnecessarily provocative. Mr Puigdemont, showed enormous restraint last week, under overwhelming Catalonian pressure, to force the region to “pause” the outcome of their overwhelming victory. Over 90% of 50% of the population of Catalonia voted for independence, i.e., an absolute value of 45%. If another referendum was held today, with a higher participation rate (of no more than 90%, which is unlikely), Catalonia would win. As a comparison, there is more support for this than Brexit in the UK.
Spain are taking this aggressive position, like most bullies, because their underlying position is weak.
Unrest is likely. Rajoy is lucky the Basque region was not in this position or ETA terrorists, would become involved.
4
Mr. Rajoy highlighted the decision of over 1,000 Catalan companies this month to relocate their legal headquarters outside the region, in response to the uncertainty generated by the possibility of a breakup with Madrid.
2
No: the turnout (according to official Catalan figures) was 43% of which 90.2% voted to secede. http://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/20171006/resultados-referendum-ca...
Aside from the inherent unconstitutionality of the referendum, it was approved on 6/7 September by the Catalan regional parliament by ignoring its own institutional procedures. Further, the actual voting process allowed fraud - reporters were filmed voting more than once at polling booths. Do I endorse the police charges? Absolutely not. At the very least, it played into the separatists’ hands. Do I support Mr. Rajoy’s government? Again, absolutely not. He’s a mediocre leader at best, the head of a corrupt administration at worst. But just because he’s bad doesn’t make Mr. Puigdemont & co. good.
And let’s stop with the exceptionalist narrative. Catalonia is neither the paragon of democracy nor are the remaining 16 autonomous regions exemplars of fascism. Enough already.
2
What a crock.. Catalan has many people that do not want independence.
Catalans have been pandered to for years. They have schools in Catalan only..Signs in Catalan only..etc, etc..
So any region that can get 51 % of people to vote for independence can have it??
Yea that will work well for all nations.
1
Another contributor asked that "Spain should look at Canada, which has had a long running separatist movement in its French Province, Quebec. Recognizing it, as a ‘Nation within a nation’ and granting it even more powers managed to put the whole issue on mutually acceptable ice".
Few people know that the Spanish constitution of 1978 allowed the formation of the autonomous governments. Think of it like this, Spain has 17 autonomous parliaments, some of whom have their own autonomous police, courts of law, their own education, their own health services, etc..
One big problem is that 2 autonomous regions Navarra & Pais Vasco don't contribute to the national treasury. Naturally, this has peeved Cataluña and Madrid but it is only Cataluña's secessionists who have said, "why should we pay?"
With the secession issue, some quarters have voiced a change in the constitution. The question however is, what's to be changed and in what direction?
Some quarters within the political party, PSOE are talking of a nation of nations but the opinion polls of late, suggest that the vast majority of Spaniards want to scrap the autonomous governments, centralize the courts of law and standardize the education.
Are the regional politicians going to allow this or will the the majority of the Spaniards demand this?
10
The Basque Country and Navarra pay taxes to the central government. They pay less than they would if they were part of the general system. Catalonia was offered a similar deal in the early 1980s but refused it because he did not want Catalonia to be in the role of tax collector. It also was cheaper at the time (before the welfare state expanded under the socialists) and it allowed the nationalists to nurse grievances against the central government.
The nationalists in Catalonia mistake national pride with contempt for their compatriots throughout other autonomous regions of Spain. Catalonia is a very wealthy region that sends a lot more money to Madrid than they get back, yes, but they don't need as much of it. They already enjoy an admirable quality of life, far superior to that of most of the other 16 autonomous regions. It's hypocritical for the nationalists to call for social justice while wanting to abandon ship. It's offensive that they insinuate that residues of Franco's dictatorship are still in play. And it's ridiculous that they think that the rest of Spain has no say. At the same time, the state's violent reaction to the flawed referendum was out of line. Clearly, the Spanish government leaders and the nationalist leaders despise one another.
Note to voters: Elect leaders who possess far superior diplomatic skills than these guys. Then maybe you will be more like your compatriots in the Basque Country and have much more autonomy one day.
4
History is replete with failed attempts at secession, e.g., the US Confederacy, Biafra, Northern Italy, the Sahara, Northern Ireland and many more. Most - but not all - were resolved by war. Catalonia's bid to secede from Spain will not create a war (Catalonia does not have this capability), but it does cause confusion since it is also a dispute about whose democracy is more important. And it also speaks to the still-evident human desire for tribal unity. The concept of the nation-state seeks to rise above tribalism in an attempt to create the conditions for greater human unity and peace, but it constantly bumps into recidivism such as we see in Catalonia.
The Catalonian problem will be resolved without bloodshed but with pain. One can only hope that however it is resolved, people will come to see it as just another battle in the much larger effort of civilized people to rise above tribalism and to move the regressive elements of humanity toward the real unity - that of the human race.
17
There have been far more successful independence movements than failed ones. From a distance, it would seem Catalonia is wanting to throw off centralized control of Madrid and the EU. History is replete with totalitarian attempts to squash independence movements with a heavy hand, only to see much bloodshed. At the end of the day, don't we all have the God-given right of Self Determination? If the people want freedom from Madrid and the EU, they mean to have it. I applaud them.
1
Tribalism is a much too simple answer to some very complex issues. The question of fair representation of Catalonia by Spain is a real one. Also, the idea that social identity can be dismissed a mere tribalism is hypocritical; I'm certain JKING has his or her own identity pride.
Having been to Barecelona in the summer I found an amazing vibrant city that was thriving. Catelonia itself it much larger than Barecelona and it's people are feverish to be independant without a doubt. But is it right to do and expect the central Government of Spain to stand back and watch it's provences break away just because? Remember in Spain there are the Basques at the northern most corner of Spain who for decades desperately demonstrated how violent it could be to break away from Spain - I suspect they are watching the deveopments very closely and planninn accordingly. Wait, watch and see what Spain's central govenment will do to clamp down on further activities by Calalonia or any other provence that make any move toward succession.
1
Senor Rajoy is fighting to "Preserve the Union" of Spains various autonomous regions.
Force succeeded in the US at the cost of 750 000 lives. To justify it, Lincoln was pronounced to be a Great President.
I have never understood the territorial instinct. If people are unhappy, and vote democratically with a substantial majority for leaving, let them go. The more likely than not, will come return when the face reality of living as a small nation next to a big one. As Trudeau the elder once said, the US Canada is like a mouse sleeping with an elephant. The elephant is kind, but if she rolls over, the mouse is done for.
The territorial instinct is best left to dogs, wolfs and other animal.
1
I am a non-Spanish non Catalan Barcelona resident, happy with the way things are at the moment but don't care one way or the other about independence.
Violence is not the answer, has never been the answer and never will be the answer. Sending in the armed police has planted the seeds of hatred in the young people. In 50 years time the same young people will remember it and now it will take another generation for a new set of people to resolve it.
Madrid has refused point blank all along to discuss it. My take on that is that it is wedge politics at play, divide and conquer. By demonising the Catalans Rajoy hopes it will get the rest of Spain behind him and get a majority government at the next election.
2
1. As I pointed out previously 40% may seem low to people but as a statistical sample it has enormous predictive power. So if 90% of 40% is voting one way, it tells you something about how people feel.
3. As for legality, in 2011 the UK accepted the legality of the so called Alternative Vote Referendum and rejected the introduction of the Alternative Vote. The turnout was 42%.
4. In Switzerland (a.k.a. the land of referendums), the May and September referendums of 2009 and the September referendum of 2010 had a less than 40% turnout. If you look into it there are several other sub-50% and even sub-40% turnouts in recent Swiss referendums.
5. After the British left India, the North West Frontier Province voted in a referendum in favor of joining Pakistan. The province was given to Pakistan but the votes in favor were 52% with a turnout of only 17%! India cried hoarse but no one paid attention.
6. Lastly it is important to note that every Spanish citizen should not have to vote for a Catalan referendum to have legitimacy. If China organized a referendum about Tibet (unlikely) would we allow the Chinese government to let 1.2 billion Chinese citizens vote in it because they should all get a say?
4
"As I pointed out previously 40% may seem low to people but as a statistical sample it has enormous predictive power. So if 90% of 40% is voting one way, it tells you something about how people feel."
And as I pointed out to you previously, statistical samples need to be REPRESENTATIVE to have predictive power. 1) Many No people stayed home and boycotted the election; 2) Majority of Yes typically come from small towns; large cities like Barcelona or Sabadell are less likely to come for Yes, yet ironically they are also the places where the police can more effectively shut down polls (as they did).
So you see, 40% is not necessarily REPRESENTATIVE. Get a book on statistics.
1
And I could argue that many yes voters were prevented from voting and many Yes votes were seized etc. By one account 770,000 votes were lost because of police actions.
First let get the facts: Total registered Voters = 5,313,564 of whom 2,286,217 (43.02%) voted. Of these votes 2,221,585 were valid votes. Of the valid votes 2,044,038 (92.01%) were YES.
Now imagine that the referendum had not been brutally suppressed and every registered voter got a reasonable chance to vote. Even in the most well attended referendums the turnout is rarely above 85% but lets say for some reason every registered voter and every vote were valid so 100% turnout and validity. Guess what is 51% of that: 2,709,918 or just 665,880 more YES votes than were currently cast.
So bottom line is that if 100% registered votes were valid in a new referendum and everyone who votes YES now voted the same, then the YES camp needs just 20% of the remaining registered voters to vote YES to get an overall 51% majority.
In reality 100% will never vote so far fewer than 665,880 YES votes would be needed to win. Also far more than 20% of the remainder will vote YES.
So I am afraid it will be landslide for the Independence camp.
Maybe you need to get an arithmetic book.
That is not how it worked out in the last regional elections which the separatists labeled a de facto plebiscite on independence. 48% of support to separatist parties--and that's not even considering the fact that CiU's fraction of electorate who don't want independence is sizable. Is the goal here to continue doing referenda until the desired result is obtained? As a British journalist said recently, that's a "neverendum."
As for arithmetic, it's the Catalan government that needs lessons, as the figures they produced added to more than 100%, etc.
I fear that the suspension of Catalan autonomy will drive more Catalan residents into the arms of the secessionists. This seems tragic because it appears that Catalan independence would be a lose-lose-lose situation for the Catalonia, Spain, and Europe itself. If Catalonia goes its own way, who is next? Scotland? Piedmont? Bavaria? Will all of the wealthy provinces or states of countries attempt to leave their unions in order to avoid helping the poorer parts of their countries? Independence for Catalonia would be a poor omen for the future of Europe.
The focus on Catalan sovereignty obscures the more important issue : the need to rationalize European governance architecture more broadly.
Countries like Spain have well-developed regional governments, which increasingly operate under the policies, programs and financing of EU governing institutions in Brussels and Strasbourg.
The EU has been investing heavily in increasing overall market integration, including sector-specific initiatives such as an integrated energy grid and market; it is planning for significantly higher levels of digital integration combined with adoption of e-governance, e-administration and smart-cities.
In this future, the optimal governance architecture may plausibly consist of three layers : municipal, regional/state-level and EU-level.
At the very least, these transformations raise important questions about the increasingly redundant role of national governments - sandwiched between the two layers that are taking on proportionately greater importance, strategically and in the daily lives of Europeans.
Regional identity -- which arguably varies considerably from region to region based on factors such as ethnicity, language, culture and history -- is a separate dimension to this issue.
For better or worse, nationalism is obscuring a more important and pragmatic set of questions about the evolving architecture of policy-making, program administration and public services delivery.
12
Thank you for your intelligent comment.
I think the leader of Spain is doing the right thing. Only weak and poor leadership would allow Catalonia to declare independent. I am sure both leaders in China and Taiwan are watching the development in Spain very closely. Xi Jinping or any other leader in China would never allow Taiwan to become an independent country. I know many American leaders and foreign policy decision makers would like to see an independent Taiwan someday.
1
People often think the grass is greener on the other side of the fence - "If only they were independent - then things would be so much better!". In a similar vein, people think why should we pay all that insurance money (taxes). We can self-insure, save all that money, be so far ahead. And then, the unexpected happens and not everyone is like the Prodigal Son's father.
1
Democracy is never a goal or outcome, it’s the byproduct of a highly developed society. You have to follow certain rules.
2
Apart from the specifics, these events pose interesting questions. No jurisdiction that I know of has provisions for a lawful separation of part of its citizens. It is therefore natural that any government would consider such proceeds as illegal. On the other hand it almost seems a natural right that when an overwhelming majority of a geographically defined population desires to leave a state, they should be allowed to do so. I am scratching my head over this one.
1
Controlling the Educational System of your Region to impose your version of history takes years to change minds, but a generation to change hearts. That is where we find ourselves.
The Spanish Constitution was signed off on by all Regions. A major compromise that the rest of Spanish citizens had to accept in order to publish the Constitution was that the Basque & Catalan Regions would have a disproportionately larger representation in the National Congress. One person - one vote does not exist in Spain when it comes to these two privileged Regions, but unity was the goal 1978 and was signed off by all.
4
It does not stop with removal of the Catalonian leader.
Madrid also announced that it will censor Catalunya TV, to "ensure evenhanded reporting" ( Madrid determining what is "evenhanded"
Forget about the freedom of the press. Not in Madrid's cards
Journalists and reporters, all over the world, need to protest repression of the freedom of expression, in Catalunya.
That would be totally illegal in the US, but let us remember that Lincoln was no better, and he too supressed the freedom of the press.
The Constitutional Court suspended the referendum and in its subsequent ruling (since announced), made clear that public monies spent on the referendum were an illegal act. TV-3 continued to broadcast election propaganda paid for by all taxpayers in defiance of the courts. I am skeptical of the Spanish government's ability to reform the public Catalan media, but I am also aware that the Catalan government has made it a sectarian tool of division. Catalonia is fractured in large part because of a monolithic view of culture rather than a pluralist one.
Rajoy should try the approach Canada has taken to repeated independence referenda by pro-independence provincial governments in Quebec: Organize the rest of the country to show Quebecers that they and their province are valued parts of Canada; organize support for a "no" vote within Quebec; integrate the French language into central institutions; and, finally, if the province ever votes for independence, make the process as smooth as possible while retaining control of areas of the province owned directly by the federal government. This is a lot better than the use of force which would only harden separatist sentiments and result inn the loss of lives. I've lived in countries experiencing civil wars and I know that the brutalization of one's own people does not make the situation better.
4
To Wanderself NYC 9 who writes:
If the governor of California proclaimed California was not anymore a state of the USA but an independent country, would the US courts and government not replace him or her?
This leaves out a lot.
If the US Federal police would clobber impeccably peaceful Californians trying to vote for or against independence, do you still think the US Courts would wily nilly remove the Governor ?
If a large majority of Californians would vote to leave the Union, do you not think that the principle that in a democracy the the government must have the consent of the people to govern, would be upheld ?
And as a final point, the US Constitution specifies that all rights not specifically assigned to the US government are rights of the States. Nowhere in the Constitution is specified that the US government has the right to prevent States from leaving the Union.
It is specified in Spain's Constitution, but not in that of those United States.
4
We were in Seville a few days after the referendum and there seemed little or no sympathy for the independence movement. We saw a few demonstarations in favour of the Spanish government and Spanish flags were pretty much everywhere.
A legal referendum along the lines of Scotland would be the only way forward here, but I think there is not chance of Madrid going that way.
A note of historical context to other more distant "independence" movements. Most Americans have probably forgotten that the Revolutionary War that separated them from their cultural cousins in Great Britain 240 years ago was not a particularly popular option among the colonists at the beginning. A long series of back and forth political (and military) moves - many unwise and provocative - ultimately pushed the colonists into a war footing. A powerful central government that sees its efforts to "maintain its authority" as the central issue in a dispute with an aggrieved regional member risks losing everything if it doesn't proceed with caution and sensativity toward its unhappy subjects. Of course there is a counter example in American history, the Civil War, where the central government fought a horrific war to "preserve the union." But the issues in that case were so monumental (slavery, maintaining an abnormal economic system) that the bar of going to war against the sessionists was raised exponentially. The Union was preserved, but the cost was monumental - and still has echoes today.
1
- and as others have noticed why this one sided article?
Sure the Rajoy Dude is... to use US-Speak is a F... authoritarian Moron -
BUT it is really difficult in this case -(unlike in the US where the nationalistic idiocy is mainly ''Trumpish'') - to see in the Catalonian Indepence movement NOT some small-minded stupid nationalists.
And I'm writing that for a PEACEFUL Europe!!
Don't you understand, to be Nationalistic these days is equivalent to being a White Supremacist or a racist.
The only acceptable agenda is the One world utopian tyranny....
It seems that my trip to Spain in December may be interesting in ways I had not anticipated...
1
It's fascinating that even in this 21st century, allegedly open-minded, open-hearted, interconnected world, it's still a matter of tribe versus tribe, me against you, and give me what I want the heck with the consequences.
It's so, like, ... well, caveman-ish.
24
Well it is quite a bit more complex than your portrayal. A simple example is that our country, the U.S.A. (I too am American although I live in Europe, sometimes in Catalunya) is also born in the wish for such sovereignty from the British. By your account we should have simply remained an English colony instead of having fought for independence. Or by your reasoning, Macedonia and all of the other previous states of the former Yugoslavia should have stayed as Yugoslavia because it is cavemanish to speak your own language and to have your own country with its own culture intact. Should African nations too remain as they are within the lines drawn by their colonialist oppressors years ago? Should Zimbabwe have stayed as Rhodesia because it was cavemanish to want to express their own culture? Should Tibet and the Dali Lama give up their struggle to be recognized as an independent country and just stay under forced Chinese rule? Should the former Russian States have stayed Russian? Should the Czech Republic and Slovakia who speak slightly different languages have stayed as Czechoslovakia instead of peacefully deciding otherwise? Or should they both have remained a part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire instead of having cavemanishly declared independence? I think that you’re not really aware of the issues at stake in your preferred simplification of the idea of rights of one’s own expression and sovereignty to rule oneself as a distinct culture.
3
It's probably why the sky is devoid of any evidence of enduring technological civilizations.
Caveman-ish is supremacy as distilled by the separatist movement. Their national identity is defined by a document drafted by Mr. Pujol (President of Catalonia for 20 years) and his close circle back in Oct 1980. You can find it in El Periodico.
The Spanish stand can be explained to you by a Constitutional expert. I guess you would not find an attempt to violate the US Constitution caveman-ish, just a crime
This isn't exactly burnishing Spain's image as a democratic and totally-not-authoritarian-or-anything constitutional monarchy. Puigdemont's wishy-washy not-quite-declaration-of-independence and actions since the vote was strange, but that doesn't justify the Federal thug-cop assaults nor give him any sympathy for this move.
Catalonia set a "Spain is going full Franco again" trap, and Rajoy didn't just go for the cheese, he stood right next to the block of Swiss and unhooked the jaw himself while yelling "Look everybody, I'm gonna fall for this trap!"
The top comment doesn't do this situation justice; the people, not just the government, want independence. That is clear, and that's why the thugs got scared.
11
Sorry to point out that not most of the people in Catalonia wants independence. It's close, but not there yet. If you look at the results on the latest elections, you will see that secessionists got 47.8% of the votes. Close to majority, as I said before.
It was a very flawed referendum to say the least, but even with the flaws the result was that 90% of the approximately 40% that voted wanted independence. That is about a third of the people. I would not call this a majority. Also, were non- Catalans livening in Catalonia allowed to vote or was it a Catalan only referendum? The media should do a better job in explaining all of that.
The so-called Catalan leaders burned their fingers badly, but they are too arrogant to back down and take the blame for the mess they created. They preferred to pitch Catalans against their fellow Spaniards. These politicians prefer to tear apart Spain and also the Catalan people (not everybody is for independence) than admit their mistake. Useless politicians with outsized ego's and arrogance. Shame on them.
2
Imagine this happens in the US. Rich, populous, liberal California is sick from the regressive federal government and for paying huge sums of money to support underpopulated, rural Trumpian states. Jerry Brown declares a referendum, win a slim majority and off California goes on it's own. What would you say then?
Under the same logic Russia would disintegrate into countless splinter republics, Belgium will divide in two, German speaking North Italy will create a new republic, each minority group in north and western china will create their own country. And where does it end? Why Catalonia and not the Al-Azzazme beduin tribe in southern Israel?
Historically, rationalism and clericalism where probably the main causes for bloodshed in the western world. World wars 1 and 2 put an end for that by adopting democracy, liberalism and religious tolerance. These principles cannot be taken for granted and need constant maintenance effort. And where they failed, the results were terrible, like in the civil war in Yugoslavia and the bloody middle east.
The Spanish government is doing the only thing left for it, acting according to the national constitution, The childish, disturbed "president" of Catalonia left it no other chance. I hope and believe this crisis will end peacefully and wisdom will prevail.
3
If the self serving power and tax hungry bureaucrats in Brussels are against the separatist movement you know it must be good for the Catalonia people.
8
I bet you are part of the alt right, right? All the extreme right paties in Europe Support the sepatist. If the independence movement succeeds that will be the end of the EU
2
Well, if this secessionist movement turns out to be illegal and is rightly put down by the central Spanish government, hopefully they'll prevent the Catalans from putting up statutes in public squares celebrating the treasonous leaders of the rebellion.
12
If their leaders are fighting in favor of Inquisition and racial violence as did those you reference, then indeed they should not!
Yes, highly analogous to the slave state rebellion of 1861-65 and its glorious if belated statuary.
Just curious, are you referring to the Franco statue incident in El Born?
I find it very interesting, that Europe, now as a whole, instead of coming more and more together is drifting more and more apart.
It is not an accident, that strong nationalistic movements are gaining ground, which of course encourages separatism.
As for the current Catalonia debacle, Mr. Rajoy must be very careful not to use a big stick without a big carrot. He should remember, that Spain already endured a bloody civil war in the last century.
He should look to Canada, which has had a long running separatist movement in its French Province, Quebec.
Recognising it, as a ‘Nation within a nation’ and granting it even more powers managed to put the whole issue on mutully acceptable ice.
7
Nationalism and the drive for nationhood exerts an expensive cost that the Catalans, like Quebec, will soon find out if they get their way. If Quebec had left Canada, the financial cost would have led to a halving in the standard of living. The new Quebec dollar or franc would have been 50 cents on the Canadian dollar. We're certainly going to find out if the Catalans are willing to pay the real price for independence or are they going to be like Quebec, which wanted the rest of Canada to foot the bill.
Yes, nationalism and a turning inward rather than reaching out exerts a significant negative economic cost. Something that American first nationalists like Bannon and Trump don't want people to really learn.
13
I came to know the Catalan movement when I stayed there 40 years ago. One morning when I got down to the hotel lobby, something was unusual; the beautiful lush street it was facing was disorganized. (I must have been able to sleep sound then.) Later that day I declined to donate for their cause, but ever since I have been longing for their success.
3
And why would you do that? They have zero argument. There is. O suppression of their language or culture. They are richer than the rest of Spain. Going it alone will plunge the region into poverty as every international corp wil surely leave. This is a racist, elitist move that will crush the average person ( yes racist. The leaders of this movement openly consider themselves better, smarter than Spaniards). It is a disgusting, self-serving move that will hurt everyone.
2
The richest region of Spain -- 20% of the GDP -- wants to be independent. What are we supposed to admire about that?
The Northern League wants to secede from the rest of Italy, leaving it in poverty. Should that be praised?
What if the liberal northeast and west coast states formed their own country, leaving the people of places like Arkansas and Mississippi to fend for themselves. Would that be honorable?
That's what Catalonia wants, to keep its own wealth. I have some sympathy for it because of the history under Franco, but those days are gone (yes, I understand about the rollback of autonomy).
The only way we're ever going to make progress is if people pull together, not split along every racial and ethnic line we can find.
35
It’s a little oversimplified to say that Catalonia wants its own money. To understand where the grievances lie, the Basque Country (an autonomous community with similar cultural and language distinctions as Catalonia) has additional autonomy around their tax money. When Catalonia asked for a similar provision in 2010, the central government reacted very negatively. Since then, a growing group of Catalans are convinced that going through the proper central government channels for increased autonomy does not guarantee them a voice at the table (especially as Rajoy’s Popular Party was implicated in a major corruption scandal in the last year, further breaking down trust in the central government). If the central government had spent the last 7 years positioning itself as a resource to autonomous communities like Catalonia, rather than an adversary, none of this would be happening.
There seems to be a perception internationally that pro-independence Catalans have their heads in the clouds or feel overly entitled to the tax money they generate. The real root for the independence movement is in Catalans’ rocky relationship with a corrupt central government (not helped by their history under Franco) and a feeling that they’re not welcomed or respected elsewhere in Spain, which is supposedly their own country. Bullying is not a good way to make friends and it’s hard to see how this movement will de-escalate without a sincere pivot by Rajoy.
2
That is a common misconception. Wich is based in your own opinion.
If the 2010 statute of autonomy (wich was not even ideal but at least had a 90% agreement on catalan parliament)had not been raped of content in the spanish courts, then vilified & inconstitutionalized by the PP, then ridiculed in public...if at least the nationalist spanish politicians responsible for that (left and right wing ones) had not laught publicly about doing it...If that attitude was not systhemic of the spain that never transitioned fully from Francoism because we never talked about it no more...well simply put we would not be here. So no it is not about money.
2
and sending jackbooted thugs to steal ballots and beat up old ladies is how you pull together? catalans have seen what a sham spain is and want to break free, and i cant blame them.
1
I keep reading in every American newspaper that Catalonia has "a distinct culture". What exactly is so distinct about Catalonia other than a language strikingly similar to Castillian? "Cultural identity" in Catalonia may be nothing more than a euphemism for "ethnic supremacism".
14
It has the rare distinction of being a very wealthy province in a very impoverished country, whose residents are becoming sick of being taxed to death by a distant socialist central government. Why is this even discussed as anything else?
7
They have been receiving the invests from Madrid for years as they were part of the government. Now, when is time to share their incomes, they want to go. So the only fact is about solidarity, is not about culture or language because ten years ago was same and nothing happened.
2
Not true. Having lived there for many years, married to a Catalan, and his Catalan family, their culture is distinct; language, traditions, values, all are sacred. They were oppressed for many years and are fighting to keep those sacred traditions.
2
I am not understanding the events and the politics. Prime Minister Rajoy could, before all this started happening, taken a few senior ministers, hopped on the train to Barcelona, said "OK, so you'd like a referendum" and worked with the Catalans to find a constitutional and meaningful way to facilitate that, as the UK did with Scotland. Instead, with rhetoric and behaviour I find worrisome and reminiscent of European dictators of old, Rajoy issued decrees and sent in a federal police force best known for killing Franco's enemies, and trying to overthrow the democratically elected Spanish government after Franco's death. None of this passes the smell test of a 21st century democracy, and that certainly includes a bunch of Catalan hotheads trying to have their way whatever the consequences. What is Rajoy trying to do - create another ETA? And yes, of course this is an EU matter - Catalonia does not end at the Spanish border...
17
The Spanish Constitution does not allow the dismemberment of the country by a vote by a portion of the country. The only legal way to have a referendum would be to have it in all of Spain and/or to amend the Constitution. Your little train trip scenario implies a President can do whatever he wants. That is, paradoxically, one of the major points. Rajoy's actions have limits and Puidgemont's do not.
15
Would President Trump hop on a train to New York to do the same? Would any western democracy do so? Did JFK negotiate state rights when he sent federal agents to the South? Did Abraham Lincoln hop on a train to South Carolina to negociante Confederate independence?
There is a way to negotiate regional autonomy or even independence: in Congress, under the rule of the law, that is applicable to all men and women alike.
The referendum in Scotland had much more to do with internal Conservative Party issues than an authentic belief in the referendum itself. And let's not forget where Cameron's clumsy statesmanship has led the U.K. to... Brexit.
This has nothing to do with Franco or the Catalan economy. No, this has at its core an irrational and emotional feeling called nationalism, based on tribal identity, a hatred towards all that is from "outside" and a supremacist vision of society.
Scotland 120 years ago was an independent country, Cataluña has never been a country or a kingdom. Many regions in Spain have more rights to independence than Cataluña.
1
A few clarifications to the article:
- Spain faced a greater crisis after 1975, namely a far-right militarist coup attempt in February 1981.
- Catalonia already enjoys a high level of autonomy, similar to U.S. states. And far greater if seen in terms of how much taxes they handle. The Catalan government controls education, health care, culture, and more. According to Mr. Puigdemont, the Catalan government is not asking for more autonomy, but for secession without federal supervision.
- In the Spanish media, everyone took for granted that article 155 was going to be applied one way or the other. The only alternative to the application was Mr. Puigdemont to quit promoting acts against the Spanish constitution, which was not expected to happen.
- The only testimony pro intervention of the Catalan government given in the article was that of Mr. Rajoy. It also shows the testimonies of Mr. Puigdemont, a Catalan senator, the separatist president of Catalan parliament, a leftist journalist, a far-left politician, and the president of the Basque National Party; All of these testimonies criticize Mr. Rajoy. Still, 75% of the Spanish population support reestablishing legality. For some people, nationalism is an okay/excellent way to go, unless you are an American.
20
Well it's about what nationalism you prefer here. Spanish nationalism with imposition of Spanish language over a Catalonian minority, erasing Catalonian language from schools is one of the plans of members of Rajoy's governement. Spanish governement takes over police, press, public political and public services. Spanish organised elections with exclusion of bad Catalonian separatist politicians? Or Catalonian nationalism with Catalonian separatist organising everything, until now they did not say they would exclude the Spanish oppositionin Catalonia, what do we prefer? Yes nationwide negatiations over changes on the actual constitution, not "orgulo espagnol" that is applying constitution on a part of the population in a dictatorial way.
1
let's see how many spaniards will continue to support rajoy if his moves spark war, conscription of spanish boys to be shot at occupying catalonia. as spain's economy crumbles under the burden, i doubt the eu will finance his megalomania
1
The only reality is that the Catalán government is indoctrinating children in outrageous racism against the rest of Spain. They have always had the media and education controlled, so the rise of this destructive movement is no surprise. Hope Mr. Rajoy and the federal government will let kids speak both Catalan and Spanish. I have not heard from any member of the government he will do otherwise. All the parties will be able to run for elections. It's the law. A law that has been on hold for some reason during the past couple of months, when the Catalan government has broken the Constitution and Catalan statute.
I don't consider that the application of legally vored democratic rules is Spanish nationalism. What's the alternative? Chaos? The Catalan government made it clear the only dialogue will be about how they'll do what they want with a minority of votes.
2
Dear readers of the NYT: Imagine if California, or New York, or any other state, will declare that they are separating from The United States. That is what some members of the Catalan parliament are trying to do. They held a fake referendum against the law of the Spanish Constitution.
Mariano Rajoy the elected president of Spain is the best Man for this job, he has been patient and strong in his decision. Mr. Rajoy and his democratic elected parliament are following the letter of the law. I am proud of the actions he is taking.
Someone in this forum compare Mr. Rajoy to Mr. Duterte or Mr. Trump. Please there are no comparisons. As I mention before Mr. Rajoy is following the letter of the law for the good of the people of Catalonia and all of Spain. The European Parlament and every democratic leader has given Mr. Rajoy and the elected government their unconditional support. The only person who is backing the separatists is Mr. Maduro, the president of Venezuela. What does that tell you?
31
Shouldn't Catalan citizens know what they want? Their government was voted and represents their will. Rajoy was not voted by them, in fact his party got less than 9% of the vote. He does not represent Catalan people's voice, to the contrary.
For instance, the Catalan parliament banned bullfighting as a barbaric treatment of animals, and Madrid's tribunal forced Catalonia to eliminate that ban, even though most Catalans think bullfighting is barbaric.
2
Regardless of the merits, the Catalonians had better perform some elementary mathematical calculations, viz--
in 1861, southern states of the USA, even after 30 years of subversion (i.e. locating more depots and arsenals in their states), opted for independence despite a 4:1 deficit in (white) men of military age. Also, vast inferiorities in railroad miles, ironworks and other factories, banks and other financial institutions.
In 2017, the Kurds of northern Iraq neglected to compare the number of armored vehicles they have (apparently, none), vs what the Iraqi Army has (more than none).
Whomever loses, basic math usually wins.
9
What is missed in most foreign comment is that a majority of catalans want to stay in Spain, and Spain can't abandon its own citizens, so allowing secession is a no-go from the start in any scenario.
26
Hear hear,
I am Catalan, and I want to stay in Spain.
Pro-independence parties won the majority of the sear in the Catalan Parliament, but they did not win the popular vote.
22
That which you say is not true, and in any case it would be easy to know, referendum binding and we will have it clear
South Africa had its Truth and Reconciliation Commission right after Apartheid ended yet Spain (with arguably comparable levels of repression under Franco) chose to wait 30 years for something comparable. This was the ambitious Law 57/2007 under Prime Minister Zapatero that "recognizes and broadens the rights and establishes measures in favor of those who suffered prosecution or violence during the Civil War and the Dictatorship." Subsequent efforts to expand the law's scope to prosecute remnants of the Franco regime were thwarted by elements sympathetic to the fascist regime and the Church.
I previously gave the example of South Africa but I think even countries like Chile and Colombia have done a better job of confronting their sordid past. The reason Spain got a free pass is their membership of the EU which has conferred a veneer of respectability.
This should give those people pause who [erroneously] think of Catalans as a bunch of selfish whiners. The Spanish left just too much baggage un-examined and after their Franco style tactics on Oct 1, this has come to haunt them like never before.
13
From last week we are also in the ONU Human Rights Commission, OTAN, not only EU, are you saying that ONU and OTAN are allowing their partners tu be undemocratic.
Let's say Texas has some legitimately debatable grievances in terms of taxation, redistribution, etc. Let's say also that the Texas legislature recently passed a very aggressive rewrite of its State Constitution, in part trying to address this.
Let's say that the Federal Government sued in Court, and that the US Supreme Court ruled that certain parts of that State Constitution were in fact unconstitutional.
Let's say the Texas governor proposes that the solution to this affront from Washington is to secede from the US. Let's say the governor tells everybody in the State of Texas that the upcoming State elections will be a de facto referendum for the independence.
Let's say that in such State elections, half-plus-one of the elected seats in the Texas legislature supports the governor's position--yet somehow these people represent 48% of the electorate.
Let's say the Texas legislature passes a law by which there shall be a binding referendum on independence from the US. In the lead-up to this referendum, let's say that the Texas Government openly begins to tell all Texans to file all of their tax returns with the State and not with the Federal Government.
Let's say the Federal Government sues in court, and as the case goes all the US Supreme Court, the law of referendum is deemed unconstitutional.
Let's say the Texas government refuses to heed the US Supreme Court ruling, calling it an instrument of Washington, and just carries on.
7
I confess that I am biased.
Personally, I would give Texas my blessing to secede.
Along with all the Confederate States to join Texas.
And take some of the Western Red States with them.
I would have to move but it would be worth it :-)
15
I think most of the people in blue states that prop up Texas and almost all other red states would welcome a secession of the entire backward South... It would solve most of America's problems overnight... Good riddance!
Have traveled to Spain as a tourist three times since 2014, including a week or so in Barcelona and Girona (Puigdemont is from Girona). We witnessed independence demonstrations in 2014 in the non-touristy neighborhood of Barcelona that we stayed in. To us it seemed a little crazy and hard to understand why (one person told us it goes back to the War of Spanish Succession in the early 1700s). The demonstrators seemed very nationalistic, and not in a good way. Barcelona is as multi-cultural as New York City or London. Imagine the reaction in the United States if metropolitan NYC tried to secede. Spain is a wonderful country, at least from the viewpoint of a tourist, and its future will be much better if Catalonia remains the integral part of Spain that has been for the past 500 years.
20
Thank you for your testimony. I'm catalan and I have the same opinion.
It's very important the world knows the reality in Catalonia and Spain by people who have visited Spain and not by the nationalist catalan goverment propaganda.
1
It boggles the mind that a tourist could form any opinion on whether a people should or should not separate. How could you possibly know whether their future is better in Spain? Have you done serious research on the matter? Maybe the people who live there have a little more insight.
1
There's little in the news about the left-leaning Podemos party, which is sympathetic to the Catalan separatists but also wants to see a united Spain. It would be economically wise for Spain to unite, with each region maintaining and celebrating its language and culture, but the tensions between the regions have escalated to a point where it seems unlikely. There are so many questions about a separate Catalonia functioning alongside Spain and within the EU (or outside of it), and at this juncture, there are few concrete answers. Can Catalonia exist with only Barcelona as its anchor, and without the Balearics and Valencia? And how would the non-Catalans in Barcelona identify? Most of them don't speak the language. Spain is being ripped apart, and the benefits remain murky.
6
I lived in Spain for 3 years, and I LOVE that country and it's people. It's diverse, and has several regions that are very distinct in cultural identity and language. Catalan, Basque, Gallegos (Galicia). In Andalucia people in one town don't think people 30 km away know "the real recipe, or the real history" of their area. Tbis is an existential issue for Spain. Really, what do any of us in the US have in common after 1000 miles. Only ideas and history.
6
Spain, with the rest of the world, went through a very tough economic crisis, and suffered years of high unemployment and the imposition of austerity and slow recovery by the European Union. As with Trump in the US and Brexit in England, some politicians see it to their advantage to saw division and recall our worst instincts. Politicians in favor of Brexit repeated that the EU robbed GB. Pro independence politicians proclaimed that "Spain robs Cataluña". There is a silent majority in Cataluña that does not accept this premise and feels totally robbed of their right to a peaceful and prosperous life. They will speak up in the next legal elections.
7
Trump is undoubtedly envious and jealous of the political opportunity to crackdown, handed to the Spanish Prime Minister. When Trump and Rodrigo Duterte meet, they'll probably talk about Spain wistfully, wishing they could have a similar opportunity, yearning.
2
What are you talking about? Are you comparing Rajoy with Duarte or even Trump? Please, get yourself informed. Rajoy is trying to call elections because a minority has hijacked the rights of the people of Catalonia. This is not a crackdown, it is in fact, the defense of democracy in Spain.
9
It's so funny that people feel that they can talk about things they know nothing about.
If Trump and Duterte admire somebody in Spain, is probably the Catalan Government, that decided that they were not bound by the Spanish Constitution since "they did not vote for it," since they were too young to vote or were not born yet.
I'm not kidding! I've heard that argument from my independentist friends.
Rajoy is just making sure that the law of the land is upheld.
2
Send in Hillary to impose “democracy” on Cataluña, much like the prior administration’s failed coup in Ukraine. US, mind you own business- not one single word. As soon as Trump cathches wind of this mess, his presumed conduct will probably result in an abandonment of the Republic of Cataluña.
Moved by the spectacle of their demonstrations, I say to the Catalan people:
If you want to be free, be free!
6
The problem is, only 40% want to be independent. 60% do not want independence. You are saying that 40% should determine the fate of the 60% majority without the opportunity to have proper elections? If 40% of Texans decided to abandon the US and become part of Mexico, what would you say?
9
Well said. They are free to leave and found a new country wherever the find available land. Catalonia is part of Spain and will continue to be until the Spanish people decide otherwise.
3
The independentists really know how to organize a demonstration.
Democracy is not determined by the size of a demonstration, but by adherence to the rule of law.
3
This is why America should be a melting pot and not a mosaic.
9
If someone wants to understand better the conflict, just read the comments form the catalan separatists below in this thread. Their open bigotry, insolidarity and manipulation of facts will speak for itself.
8
So declaring independence is illegal? And yet it keeps occurring throughout history. Even, for example, in the U.S.A.
Being Estonian, I am endlessly grateful that when Estonia declared independence from the Soviet Union in 1991 and Moscow ordered him to crush the rebellion, General Dudayev -- a Chechen -- declined to fire on the people. I hope it won't come to that in Spain.
9
Yes you Estonians had been living on a democratic country for forty years, being one of the richest aéreas in the country. your language was the only one taught at schools and to top it all, the state gave you a passport that allowed you to travel The world. Also you were hyperrepresebted at all political levels. ALl in all, the USSR and spain the same thing
1
Do not compare Estonia with Catalonia, you are comparing totally different situations. Estonia was annexed by the Soviet Union (among other foreign invasions that had occurred earlier.) So you are saying Mexico could tomorrow retake the US territory that they lost in 1848 and that included all of California, Nevada and Utah, and parts of Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, and Wyoming, etc. They could just grab and declare independence? You are saying it is ok for anyone to declare independence without regard to the fate of individual citizens caught in the middle and not being able to have a say in the matter.
4
I'm not impressed with Estonia's democracy since Russian speakers do not have full political rights.
I hope that Trump is paying attention. The strong actions taken by Spain are exactly what he should be doing when it comes to California. Their government's absurd attempt to overrule US law when it comes to immigration law should be met, if necessary, by removing the governor and top legislative leaders from office and charging them with treason.
1
I don’t recall seeing any provision in the US constitution that would allow any president such powers. The Spanish constitution, based on the German model at least in this regard, explicitly allows for such broad powers in extreme circumstances. It looks like you might be for Trump dissolving Congress and firing the Supreme Court and proclaiming himself king?
5
Catalunia isn't the only region in Spain with its own distinct language and culture; e.g. Basque Country, Valencia, Galicia, etc. The people of catalunia are not suffering or repressed. This crisis is the direct result of extremists willing to blow up the status quo to obtain more power. If Puigdemont really thought independence was was justified based on the recent vote, then he would have proudly declared independence to the world. Check out puigdemont's BBC interview. He said that people are coming to the independence side because of the reaction/mistakes of the central government. Not because his cause was just and people are suffering.
Just another bunch of politicians making up issues to get more power. Take a trip to Spain, visit Barcelona next witness the nonexistent repression of the central government on the region.
25
Exactly! I would love to see just what oppression they’ve been living under when the rest of Spain had poured resources into the region, and now they’re trying to secede just to avoid paying taxes.
5
Well said! It all comes down to that.
We are wealthier and we do not want to pay taxes that benefit people other Spanish regions that don't have so much money.
The good news is that, with all the banks and industries leaving, very soon we will be poor, and we will not have to pay so many taxes.
3
If Rajoy had agreed to hear the Catalan's grievances, and maybe to even compromise a bit, things would not have come to this ugly head. However, Rajoy holds all the power, and the millions of Catalans, and their interests, are disregarded to the point of not being listened to. It would be as if, oh, never mind.
8
It is the other way around! When has Rajoy refused to hear about grievances! Please be specific,
4
Mr. Mariano Rajoy is following the law of the Spanish Constitution. The separatists are dividing Catalonia, a province that has enjoyed the privileges of living in a democracy since 1978.
7
Luis is in full snowflake mode, that Madrid failed to listen when Catalonia "wanted to talk about my pain" and by surrendering, Madrid made things worse. That's the sort of thing the left always says, that the side they don't agree with is "escalating things".
Beware for this is somewhat reminiscent of the Irish President Eamon de Valera, born in New York City in the month of October, described by some as 'his political creed evolved from militant republicanism to social and cultural conservatism'. For those who care and the historians among us, it might be worth revisiting 'The Troubles', as they are known in Ireland.
1
I say, let them be.
Let's pretend independence is not an attempt from Catalonia leaders to get themselves a country to lead. So, let them have it. And then, see what happens next:
By leaving Spain, Catalonia becomes a non-EU country, with no bilateral trade agreements with EU. They are out of the eurozone. They pay tariffs on everything. And they have no economic tissue anymore because all major companies have already left to other provinces.
Happy now?
10
My thoughts exactly.
3
The problem is that a majority in Catalonia don't want secession. That 90% support was over the 43% that went to vote, and all these numbers are according to the secessionists themselves, real turnout is even less. Most non-secesionists did not got to vote in the illegal referendum. And Spain can't abandon its own citizens.
10
I'm Catalan, and I am Spanish, and I do not want to leave Spain or the European Union.
We've worked so hard in Europe to eliminate borders. I do not want to be part of a tiny country that speaks a language that only 5 million people understand, ruled by provincialism and xenophobia.
5
90% of the people in Catalonia voted to be independent. Like 99% of the People in Gibraltar don't want to be part of Spain either. Nobody wants to be part of Spain, because Spain still lives in the past. It's the youngest democracy in Europe and you can see why.
6
Get the facts
Made up numbers
In which referendums would you find 90%?
In the made ones, some people put up to 50 votes in the urn and they were proud of it.
The vote was overwhelmingly in favour of independence. But in a country of 7 million, only two million voted. There were many instances of threats and intimidation of non-separatists. This is no way to break up a country. I have lived through a couple of independence referendums in Quebec. It's a serious business and has to be handled with clear rules. Just look at the mess Brexit has created.
5
90% of the people voted to be independent... but less than half actually voted because the vote was declared illegal and the majority boycotted the vote. There were no systems in place to ensure voting standards, and people were said to have voted multiple times. It would be like if someone illegally asked California if it wanted to secede, most people stayed away from voting after being told it was not legal, and now California was being hijacked into secession due to the vocal minority.
1
As usual. the NY Times Spain expert Minder is wrong.
The move was NOT unexpected.
Rajoy is a great admirer of Franco. This is exactly what Rajoy wanted, justification to occupy Catalonia.
Catalunya is now an occupied territory all of whose citizens have been stripped of their rights.
Like Iran, the Spanish government will now only allow government-approved candidates to form the new government.
No problem has been solved; the problem has only been made worse.
14
Rajoy is NOT an admirer of Franco, but a democratic president who wants to uphold the Constitution.
The New York Times readers need to understand that, in Spain, all conservative politicians are called "fachas" (fascists), and anybody who defends the unity of Spain is called a Francoist.
5
Yes. That's why Spain is, from last week, part of the UN Human Rights Commission.
Claiming Rajoy to be an admirer of Franco is absurd.
The closest movement you will find, in today's democratic Spain, to Franco's regime is precisely the nationalist government in Catalonia, that has been persecuting non-independence Catalans in their own region for years.
Everything from the referendum onwards has been illegal, so unfortunately it's too late for Catalonia to ask for dialogue. It was obvious the European Union would not support a secessionist movement because it could easily sprout similar movements elsewhere in the continent. Although it seems reasonable to apply Article 155 of the Constitution, it has never been done before and there are several different ways of doing so, with varying degrees of "severity". If Puigdemont ploughs on regardless, since the referendum was totally devoid of legality, he might easily end up in prison, so he'd better mend his ways soon and stop fueling people's anger.
23
This is not going to end well unless the Spanish government lets Catalonia go their own way. The EU needs to stand on the side of democracy and self determination- the same for our government.
8
Being on the side of democracy is being on the side of the rule of law, a fact ignored by the secessionists.
14
What about the majority of Catalans who want to uphold the Spanish Constitution?
The independentists did not win the popular vote.
9
So allow them to do an illegal vote? Ignore the will of most of the people living there? Yeah that will be very democratic
We will not fight back (violently), it is not for us, but they will not take our money, not with our effort and work. They will had to face a new Spain without Catalonia money, with or without Catalonia. A 155 will not change it. Making a coup d’etat will not change it. Anyone that believe that anything that Madrid will do will change it is wrong. You cannot make a society to be highly productive against their will by force.
The most funny thing, we already proposed Madrid to help them to become economically viable by giving them a large part of the money that we are giving now in exchange of our freedom. Of course they refused to free their subjects.
Now you know the history. Details are details and there are hundreds. But you will be able to judge by yourself.
6
Pure supremacism, Spain lives on us, you will have to live without our money, we tried but you are impossible
3
Next time you drive along the A-7 highway, fly out of El Prat, ride the high-speed AVE train, or enjoy the beautification of Barcelona that took place in the lead-up to the 1992 Olympics, tell yourself Madrid had nothing to do with that--it was all "your money."
13
Catalonia will have to face a future without Spanish money.
Over 900 companies have already left Catalonia, including all the major banks, and the rest of Spain is getting ready to boycott Catalan products (the rest of Spain buys 75% of the Catalan production).
As a Catalan, all this foolishness is breaking my heart.
We were supposed to be pragmatic people with a good business sense.
It seems that we Catalans have lost our soul.
There was nothing else. There was no proposal to fix and vote again supposed unconstitutional parts, no referendum to approve tribunals changes, no referendum to ratify current constitution. Nothing. Nothing but obey your new Estatut that we have created for you without your consent.
So, after this point, in July 10 of 2010 hundreds of thousands Catalans (one and a half million people said) go to Barcelona to protest to such decision imposed by a tribunal against a legal referendum.
And something strange happened. Before such day, talking about independence was a kind of mith. Of course, there are some people like anywhere talking about independence, but they were never taken very seriously. But that day, people just start to shout for Independence. And everyone in that demonstration shout for the same. It looks like that these day everyone understood that there made no sense to follow inside Spain. It was like we have been excluded from Spain. A tribunal had said that our vote and our decision was outside from Spanish constitution. So we understood that our only possible future as people would be outside Spain.
6
Still a myth.
2
Yes my friend, that is how true democracy and separation of powers works. You can legislate all you want and vote all you want; if the issue is against the Constitution, and the court says so, the only democratic way to overcome that is to (a) negotiate within the limits of the Constitution, or (b) amend the Constitution, using the well-known and well-regulated procedure. Anything else is just a temper tantrum.
Yup, is the Constitutional Court, the Spanish equivalent to the US Supreme Court.
That is what real democracy means—nobody, not even the majority, is above the rule of law.
That is why all the companies and banks are leaving. Who would trust a government that is so willing to break the law when it does not suit it?
I'm appalled that so many of my fellow Catalans are so happy to turn into Venezuela (which, by the way, is the only country that has supported the independentist movement).
On September 6 and 7 the renegade Catalan parlament overthrew the Spanish legal system and declared itself sovereign. In doing so the separatists imposed the secession "proces" on all Catalan citizens without respecting any limits. The phony referendum was illegal, managed by advocates of one side and designed to lead to a preordained outcome. Their sectarian views can not be challenged by a court of law. The Spanish people as a whole, who are recognized as sovereign by every international organization, the UN, EU, NATO and all the major countries of the world, had their rights stripped away. The same goes for non-separatist Catalans. The Spanish government is restoring the lawful exercise of democracy through the remedies provided for in the Constitution. The intervention will be labeled by the intellectually lazy as Francoist and undoubtedly welcomed by hard core separatists who desire nothing more than further playing the victim. Making the case for independence was getting tougher as the EU turned its back on the movement, hundreds of thousands of protested for pluralism and Catalan businesses fled due to the juridical insecurity created by this manufactured crisis. Spain has the right, as does every democratic country, to defend itself against a rebellion led by a renegade legislative body. The leaders of the legislative coup have no standing to decry the implementation of the law. Art. 155 is the natural consequence of their own reckless behavior.
14
Mariano Rajoy does not want to allow Catalans to vote, as simple as it was voted in Scotland, Quebec or UK for Brexit. He belongs to an establishment that has been inherited by Franco period. To give you a sense of what kind of democracy we have in Spain, two pro-independence catalan pacifists were sent to jail last week, whilst people like Martin Villa, ex-franco ministers with deaths under his remit, has never sent to Court.
8
They engaged in violence against police. So they were arrested.
5
They engaged in no violence at all. Violence against the police is what you saw in Venezuela when hundreds of them were injured by Molotov cocktails and Rajoy and El País and other Spanish newspapers supported those demonstrators and their violent actions. Those two Catalan guys you are mentioning urged demonstrators to act peacefully and go home. They simply needed to send someone to jail and intimidate the rest. No one, up to this day, has seen any violence on the part of those Catalans advocating independence for Catalonia. Today hundreds of thousands took to the streets of Barcelona to protest Rajoy's decision, but no violence at all. Only huge, peaceful demonstrations. The only violence the world saw was that of the Guardia Civil paramilitary against civilians trying to exercise their right to vote. The Catalan government and parliament were elected by Catalans, now Rajoy wants to dissolve that and hold "elections" in six months. He could have solved this problem a long time ago by listening to the Catalonian people's grievances and engaging in dialogue with their elected representatives.
3
Somebody who organizes a mob of 40,000 (yes, forty thousand) people to siege a place where the courts are conducting an investigation for 20 hours is not a pacifist, particularly when the mob starts destroying the police cars at a cost of over 100,000 euros.
1
For many and many years there was difficulty between Catalonia and Madrid government. To solve these problems both agreed to create a new Estatut to regulate such relationship in 2006. It was approved with the 93% of support of the Catalan parliament, only PP (current Madrid governing party) refused it. Although Madrid has promised to respect it as it was approved it the Catalan parliament, they didn’t like it, so they redacted changes, they presented the modified version into the Madrid parliament, and in 2007 they approved its own Estatut to regulate relationship between Spain and Catalonia. But they knew that it should not be likely approved by Catalan parliament, there was big changes in important sections, so they decided to make a referendum in Catalonia and let people vote.
At this point strange things start to happen. The PP party was able to make illegal advertising about the Estatut referendum: any advertise about the referendum was removed. Although PP efforts the Estatut proposed by Madrid was approved by people in the referendum.
But that did not stopped here. The PP party did not liked the new Estatut proposed by the Madrid government themselves. So, because they cannot change the decision taken by Madrid parliament they decided to make it illegal through the Constitution’s Tribunal. They had given a seat to many of the judges and they stalled the replacement of deceased judges. After almost four years, this tribunal decided to make the Estatut illegal.
6
That same year, for 11th of September, we did our first real demonstration asking for independence. Our political leaders in Catalonia decided that independence was not necessary and started another approaches. In that same demonstration appeared the Catalan president but not asking for independence but for “pacte fiscal”. In other words, he asked and try to obtain the same economic deals with Madrid government that two other Spanish region already had. Of course Madrid refused it.
It was very clear to us. Madrid only wanted us for our money, our work force. They used our taxes to live in our expenses and they did not wanted to refuse to such thing because they understood that we were their property. We were just subjects of the Spanish Kingdom.
These new reality was hard to understand to Catalan political leaders. All parties in clear favor of independence got stronger, parties against or unclear loosed supports. Old alliance between parties were broken, objectives redefined, and finally we, the people, achieved a government that we liked, a government able to stand up against Madrid and protect our rights.
10
I have read that part of the problem is Catalonia sends substantially more in taxes to the Madrid government that they receive in services, etc. If true this may be a serious part of the problem. Rajoy's crude legalistic responses are clearly not helping, especially if there are real unaddressed grievances.
6
But the economy is currently being ruined as more and more, we’re talking by the hundreds, businesses leave Catalonia for other regions. Capital is fleeing. They’d lose their soccer team! Because the team would have no league to play in!
The EU won’t accept them. No other countries will recognize them.
They owe billions to the Spanish state which rescued them during the financial crisis of 2009.
They simply couldn’t survive alone. Plus it’s illegal.
12
Yes, it is true. Spanish taxes are progressive individual income and wealth taxes. Since Catalans earn more on average, they pay higher taxes as wealthier citizens. It is not unlike California or New York in our system. The Catalans do not pay a higher tax for being Catalan though.
12
"The right to govern comes from the conscent of the govern." If I understand correctly the people of Catalonia overwhelmingly withdrew their conscent.
Perhaps a just approach is for Spain to try to obtain that conscent by eliminating any perceived abuses or peacefully letting them go. Considering that there is a European Union, of what benefit is being part of Spain.
Hopefully they are not being forced to remain to provide tax revenue to the rest of Spain. Greed and the desire to take the fruits of Catalonian labor as a hand out to the rest of Spain would be a poor reason, in my opinion, to force them to remain in Spain, Whatever the case, does Spain not overwhelmingly lack the conscent of the Catalonia people?
3
Over 90% of the Catalan voters approved of the Spanish Constitution in 1978. The notion that they have withdrawn their consent is based only on the results of an illegal referendum, administered by the advocates of one side, and designed to lead to a preordained outcome. The separatists are not defending democracy but imposing their monolithic vision on pluralist Catalonia. The region has significant amounts of autonomy when it is acting within the boundaries of the Constitution and the law. The headline should be Spain acts to restore the constitutional democracy.
17
No. If (and it is a big IF) you accept that Spain governs Catalonia (Catalonia is a part of Spain not a colony), about 40% of Catalans want secession. These are the Catalans whose "conscent" Spain would not have.
40% is not a majority. Catalan separatists believe that they speak in the name of "los catalanes" or "el pueblo catalán". They do not. At any rate, they speak in the name of 40% of them. Not insignificant, indeed, but not the majority.
So, again: the answer to your question is no.
9
To find out how any consent, you can just do a legal referendum. That's what real democratic countries like UK or Canada do. Catalonia has tried to organize already two referendums in 2014 and 2017, and they both have been declared illegal by Madrid and disrupted with fines, violence and prison.
Spain’s constitution, like those from other decentralized countries like the United States, Germany, Austria or Italy have mechanisms (in their constitutions) to defend themselves of rebellion, secession or lawlessness.
Article 155 from the Spanish Constitution, patterned after that of Germany, allows for the constitutional order to be restored when secessionists impede or sequester it as has happened in the Cataluña parliament (it has been suspended by the secessionist politicians)
Hence, the government of Spain does not suspend Cataluña’s parliament nor its functions but rather intervenes it to restore its functions upholding the Spanish constitution.
15
Meanwhile in he other side of Spain, Madrid, they saw in the Constitutionals Fribunal a great tool to enforce laws in Catalonia. They created a new law to suspend any law (or whatever in fact) just presenting it from Madrid (and just from Madrid) to the Tribunal without needing any deliberation. And some deliberations take years for these tribunal. Hundreds of laws became illegal, or just got suspended indefinitely.
Madrid talked about Catalan soufflé , they though that the problem was the Financial Crisis and people would forgot. They though that just in months callls for independence would stop. But they did not, they got stronger and stronger.
And now I really do not know what is going in Madrid mind. May be they really do not understand us. May be they really think that they can change people hearts by brute force. May be they really want us to leave Spain and at the same time become hero’s in the rest of Spain That did everything that they could to save Spain. I do not know.
What I know and most of Catalan people know is that Madrid does not like us. They just want our money. And there is no way in the world that they will make us to work hard to still paying their wishes. We did one general strike, and we all are ready to do more. One week, one month, one Monday for every week of the year. Whatever it takes.
We will not fight back (violently), it is not our style.
4
Terra Lliure, the Catalan terrorist group did not agree with your "we will not fight back (violently), it is not our style."
1
I can’t believe people are saying 40% (with 90% voting one way) is not representative. Statistically speaking it is a huge sample with a unequivocal result. Most polls with such numbers get accurately “called” after this fraction is counted.
If Spain calls new regional polls in January, the separatists will win by a landslide and call for Independence with renewed vigor.
Sorry but once the images of police brutality aired on Oct 1, it was game over for Spain.
6
Nobody is going to recognize Catalonia's independence on the merit of 90% of ayes of 40-42% of people voting. This is not me saying it. It's everybody saying it except, perhaps, Nicolás Maduro of Venezuela.
We will see what happens in the following elections. The separatists might win or... not.
The part about police brutality I will not answer, it is too boring. We know quite a bit about police brutality here in the US. But yes, two people admitted to the hospital taking into account what the scope and scale of the operation, yes, I guess the Spanish police were really brutal.
5
"Statistically speaking it is a huge sample with a unequivocal result."
Yes: a hugely biased sample.
@JOSE: Obviously statistics is not your thing. I am not talking about recognition, just mathematical fact. If 90% of a 40% sample votes one way you can rest assured that even with selection biases, sampling errors etc. the entire population's vote will also go that same way. Pointless and unhelpful comparisons with Maduro and US police brutality apart, can you explain why Spain (if it is so confident) did not agree to a legal Catalan referendum? And please don't say that every Spanish citizen would have to vote for a Catalan referendum to be legal. That's like saying every Chinese citizen should get to vote in a Tibetan referendum.
The Spanish government never denounced Franco after his death. There was no Truth and Reconciliation Commission, as in South Africa, to provide a forum for victims of the old fascist regime. The Franco years were considered a topic that was too hot to touch. The result is that Francoism still lives and thrives in Spain just under the surface, and sometimes not even that. This harsh central government takeover of Catalonia is a prime example.
3
Granted, Franco was anything but a role model for progress and democracy. But neither were the anarchists who slaughtered priests and honest business persons, nor the communists who quickly took over the opposition to Franco and ran it into the ground militarily while winning the propaganda war in the West. See Hugh Thomas. "The Battle For Spain" for an unbiased account of the great tragedy that befell Spain.
3
The actions of the national government are not due to lingering Francoism, a lazy intellectual construction in the current situation. Three national parties representing 70% of the Spanish voters have decided to defend the constitutional rights of all Spaniards, including the 50+% of Catalonia that is non-separatist, in the name of democracy, rule of law, regional autonomy and pluralism. I am not sure the few remaining Francoists in Spain are on board for that.
9
Franco has been denounced by all governments in Spain over and over since he died in 1975 and it is very easy to check. Don't make up history.
4
Rajoy has all but guaranteed that that not only will this problem not go away, it will grow bigger and bigger.
2
For the history of this conflict, re-read George Orwell's Homage a Catalonia.
2
If people want to be separate, let them. Unless of course there's oil. In any event Catalonia and the rest of Spain became united with marriage of Ferdinand and Isabella. They expelled all Jews in 1492. Now Karma. Took a long time. I remember Francisco Franko. I remember the Spanish Inquisition. So am glad to see justice coming down the pike.
4
You don't even remember his name. It was Franco not Franko.
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Prime Minister Rajoy may indeed succeed in his clampdown but, as history shows, I am sure not all in the independence movement will meekly submit.
4
On October 1, according to the Catalan government some 2.3 million people voted, out of 6 million eligible voters. Of those who turned out ,90 percent voted for independence. Separatists claimed victory. But 3.7 million eligible voters did not vote, that means 6 in 10 voters stayed home. A protest in favor of Spanish unity last week brought hundreds of thousands of people onto Barcelona’s streets. Many of those in attendance described themselves as the “silent majority.” . The question is why they did not vote? There is no excuse for majority people to remain "silent" in a democracy. This how bad outcome happens whether Brexit or election of Donald Trump.
6
setting things straight
1
Easy Padman, a lot didn't vote because they figured they had better things to do than participate in a sham referendum
4
Though there is one important difference between the Brexit/US Election/Scottish Referendum and the Catalan Independence Referendum. The former group was all recognized as a legitimate electoral process by the central governments of each respective nation. The latter was not, and deemed an illegal and illegitimate vote by Madrid. Regardless of whether you believe that was the correct position from Madrid or not, the only way for a populace to voice their feelings and question the legitimacy of an election is to purposefully stay home.
1
Before making a quick judgment, read up on regional history. Catalonia is as different from the rest of Spain as is Portugal, and just as deserving of not being forced to bow to the always-violent Castilians. The Constitution was voted on under the stern gaze of the military and the Church, and a No vote was out of the question, as it could have meant more dictatorship. The sweeping authority Madrid claims is born of a clause purposely and expressly place there to thwart any return to what had been greater recognition of Catalonia as a nation under the Republic Franco rebelled against. The monarchy was restored at his great insistence, as a way of cementing the rule of one single ethnic group over its minority neighbors. The devil is in the details on this one, folks, and it speaks Spanish in this case, not Catalan.
5
The always violent Castillians? I guess these are the days of open bigotry.
5
The appeal to tiresome stereotypes and sweepingly inaccurate generalizations ("always violent Castillians") is a pure example of nationalist demagoguery. Never mind that Madrid (capital of the 2nd Republic) fell to Franco after Barcelona, that Franco and Rajoy both were/are Galician (from another community that is 100% bilingual), that Madrid (the city, not the current precarious minority government) is one of the most tolerant, open places on earth (with a labor-rights judge as mayor, who has called for dialogue and negotiation), or that Rajoy's minority government is propped up by, irony of ironies, a Catalonian anti-secessionist party (Ciutadans). I would ask the Cat nationalists and fellow travelers to look more critically at their own history of conquest and imperialism, under Aragonese flags (across the Mediterranean, including Italy and as far as Athens), not excluding the disproportionate enrichment of Catalonians in the 19th century on the backs of Cuban slaves. Let's not forget that Ferdinand of Aragon (not Castille) was the model for Machiavelli's Prince. Dehumanization and laughable distortions of history do not serve democracy--and for the record, I oppose Rajoy and the PP, am in favor of a thoroughly revised Constitution, and would like to see a properly negotiated referendum take place, following a true debate about pros and cons of independence in Catalonia. But this grand guignol way with history is a disservice to everyone and only discredits the cause.
9
oh my - I believe you have a serious problem with facts. catalunya is part of the kingdom of aragon which also includes valencia and mallorca. Catalunya alone was never independent. you seriously need to get your facts straight before saying sweeping statements like these...
15
Mr. Puigdemont, who studied Catalan philology not politics, has set his province on the road to economic ruin. Catalonia is deeply in dept to the central Spanish government, which rescued it via loans in the 2009 economic crisis. But most large corporations, including Catalan banks, have relocated their headquarters to other regions. Nearly 1000 business have already moved to outside Catalonia and 13,000 more stand ready to do so, if Catalonia’s “leaders” declare independence. Tourism is down. Capital is fleeing, with even many supporters of independence placing their savings outside the province.
The so-called referendum was more like an illegal “straw poll” - declared illegal from the start by the courts and riddled with so many problems that outside election observers judged it to be completely undemocratic.
The Spanish Constitution, voted FOR overwhelmingly by even Catalonia (90%!) and all other provinces, mandates that any dissolution of the nation is illegal and provides for a legal means to compel any province that does not meet its duties and responsibilites under the Constitution to do so. That is what’s being triggered here. Slowly. Legally!
The secessionists are seeking to find, in the court of public opinion, what was ruled against them by the Spanish Constititional Court. And even the Catalan Court! But ECONOMICS are against them, as business, capital and tourism flees. Mr. Puigdemont put a historian in charge of the economy!
Spain will endure!
23
"The right to govern comes from the conscent of the governed." Do you agree? Spain does not have the conscent of Catalonia if I understand correctly.
3
Sorry, John, Catalonia voted FOR the Spanish Constitution (at 90% approval) along with all other provinces of Spain. That was nearly 40 years ago.
So, consent for the Constitution, which includes the FACT of Spain being a UNITED country.
Catalonia now has broad freedoms as a province. But not the freedom to declare independence. Most people in Catalonia would not vote for independence.
5
You don't understand correctly as TheraP says.
1
Should white supremacists be allowed to hold a referendum the result of which would be that African Americans would end up being foreigners and not sharing the same rights as them? Would that be democratic? What if a majority in a state (albeit a minority in terms of the population they represent) decided unilaterally to forgo Federal Policies on equal and civil rights and using majoritarianism rammed through a legislation that they know it is illegal (because their own legal experts told them so in plain daylight) disregarding all legal procedures ? What if they had the nerve to ask African Americans to go and vote in that illegal referendum threatening them that the results will be binding no matter how illegal it is? What if they had done it already once? What should the Federal Government do? Should they "Dialogue" with them this time so that they can have a chance of creating their supremacist fantasy so that they feel better? Or should they prevent this sham that would end up in discrimination of its own citizens once and for all?
22
Why did not they do a legal referendum?
I saw many disturbing images with the votes and urns, counting votes in churches...
how can they say that they represent Catalonia if more than half of Catalans did not have the chance to vote?
Those guys in charge now are well known anti-system people
How to put your future and your family's future in their hands??
Independence...why not... but do it the legal, right way, so everybody has the chance to vote
THAT is democracy.
it bothers me as well all the statements about “help Catalonia”, you can not imaging how well they live. Most of the Govern have big pockets and plenty of money .
I do not believe their song.
11
Do you believe that famous phrase "The right to govern comes from the conscent of the govern."?
If there are any issue of the process used then why not have another vote with observers etc. where the people of Catalonia have an opportunity to unambiguously either affirm or withdraw conscemy to be governed by the Spanish national government. Liberty, including economic liberty belongs with the people.
3
"The right to govern comes from the consent of the governed" doesn't apply in a riot. Sorry.
1
The citizens of Spain enjoy more free than most, and all Spanish regions enjoy more independence than most. Only 47% of the people in Catanuna voted this current separatist government, but like with Donald Trump, they got one more representative. The citizens that disagree (53%) are afraid, including lots of people that I know, and my family living there. Here we talk about xenofibia, separating, you here, me there, I am better, I will be better off without you (richer in this case since Cataluna is a rich region), Cataluna was never independent, ever. Has been Spain 500+ years, Spain is one of the oldest country in the world. Any Spaniard visiting Cataluna feels in Spain. Yes they are bilingual, but same food, same culture. Same. But Cataluna uses lots of money in international lobbysts and propaganda, and assumes a very attractive victim role. I am half catalan, like many, what do I do?? Who is 100% catalan anyway? Dialogue after you break all laws???
20
While sailing around the world, I laid over in Barcelona for a year. One year I went to the boat show in London and happened across the Spanish National Soccer Team, there for a tournament. One fellow asked me to take their photo at a national monument and we visited for a while. I mentioned that i was living in Spain. "Where" he asked. When I said, "Barcelona", he replied: "That is not Spain." I ended up spending one and a half years in Spain, becoming somewhat intelligible in both Spanish (studied at university) and Catalan (learned conversationally), and saw the division by language and culture very clearly.
Why does one get an image of two prepubescent, adolescent boys throwing rocks at each other over a fence? Because each of these two "leaders" are acting that way.
No country is going to let a region leave. I'd love to see Washington, Oregon and California merge to form a new country. But that won't work. Neither will Catalonia as a new country. Let's get real, please!
Here it is: They have to meet and talk. The easiest thing in the world is to set conditions for talks that assure that they don't occur. Each has done this. Lock these two in a room and don't let them out until a situation is agreed in which Spain remains whole and Catalona has the autonomy that makes sense.
6
Authoritarianism rears its ugly head in Spain, again. The country will live to regret this ignominious day unless wiser heads in the Spanish Senate recover their historical memory and reject this affront to democracy. I hope the center-left Socialist Party that paved the way for Rajoy to take over has seen the error of its ways.
17
Or, having made a mistake, they could double down. It's time for them to change the name of their party, it appears.
1
Authoritarianism is nowhere to be seen. Puigdemont organized an illegal referendum without any guarantees, which was boycotted by the Loyalist majority. His case is built on a pile of lies that has, al long last, crumbled down.
5
That the conservative PP party and the socialist PSOE party, usually at each other's throats, can see eye to eye on this one shows that Spain has a healthy democracy that upholds the Constitution and the rule of law.
As a Catalan, I am so grateful for that.
Remember that the independentist parties did not win the popular vote in Catalonia, despite winning the majority in the Catalan Parliament. I am so happy the Spanish democratic government is willing to protect me and my fellow Catalan citizens from this craziness.
Unexpected? We've been expecting this for a while now. In fact, observers weren't wondering what Rajoy was going to do, but when.
1
the Constitution did not permit states to unilaterally secede from the United States, and that the ordinances of secession and all the acts of the legislatures within seceding states intended to give effect to such ordinances, were "absolutely null".
9
What Spain and Catalonia need are dialogue and not heavy-handed actions like this. An escalatory dynamic is in effect in Catalonia and the Spanish government's act today will only inflame it.
2
Historically,this is nothing new. Dictator Franco also took over Catalonia...
3
Franco wasn't sent to quell Lluis Companys' uprising when he declared Cataluña's independence in 1934. As a matter of fact, the Republic sent General Domingo Batet to do the work and Companys was jailed and tried thereafter.
1
Well said. It is tiresome to try to debunk all the lies (being nice, misinformation) so i think I am going to give up.
Ha, ha, ha.
Very scary --- almost unbelievable!
The comments comparing Catalonia to an American state display deep, dangerous ignorance. Catalonia has been independent for most of its history. The time scale and culture are on another level. It’s not California or Quebec. I suggest a bit of research before you comment.
8
Catalonia was incorporated into the kingdom of Aragon in the year 1137, Aragon and Castille merged in 1516. It was only independent between the years 1700 and 1714.
So no.
8
Ridiculous comment. Catalonia has been par of Spain for more than 500 years, well before the US even existed.
7
Not so. Catalonia belonged to the crown of Aragón. After 1492, to Spain.
3
It seems suicidal for the Catalans to go full independence. Suppose they form their own country. Then all of a sudden they're no longer in the EU. If they want to join the need unanimous approval from other EU nations which includes Spain...I have a feeling the Spanish aren't going to be cool with that move.
11
That would be foolishly vindictive. Economic open borders with Catalonia are clearly in Spain's interest.
1
The EU itself has already indicated in every possible way that Catalonia can never be considered for membership!
NO country has indicated any willingness to view Catalonia as a separate country. On the contrary!
9
Not really, at least not in the short run. If we're talking pure Spanish economic self interest (not saying that's a particularly good metric), putting heavy restrictions on Catalonia would be the best move. Given they're by far the best alternative for any Catalan businesses looking to maintain a headquarters in the EU. Given that Spain can effectively block any EU countries from developing close trade relationships, harsh penalties would severely damage Catalonia's bargaining power in any future trade agreement, which would further likely benefit Spain.
1
One thing the media must correct is calling the Estelada a Catalan flag without qualifying that it's a symbol of separatism. It's incorrect to call the Estelada simply a Catalan flag. Why discuss the nuance of the independence issue in an article (and comments) and not go to the same level of detail in the captions. NYT and other media, please call blue and red Catalan flags with a star a Catalan independence flag or Catalan separatist flag.
6
Mr. Puigdemont has been at least deceitful in one respect. He has not given his followers the actual figures and consequences of what the secession would mean to the supporters independence for the new Catalonia Shunned by the European Community, the Catalonians would have to leave the Euro zone, create their own currency and this with right now about 900 companies having already deserted Catalonia. It is easy to raise support for what seems to be a bright future but you have to be honest about the price to pay.
11
Which by the way, seriously calls into question the EU’s claim to being a champion of freedom struggles worldwide. Next time the EU speaks of Palestine, Kashmir or Zimbabwe everyone will tell them to shut up.
2
Interesting...
All of the comparisons to California or Texas seceding...
Of course we'd remove those governors, forthwith...
And likewise for mayors who deliberately disregard US immigration policy...
Our borders being so sacrosanct when it comes to secession, after all...
Should be as hard to get in, as out...eeeh???
1
There's no parallel in the US. We don't have centuries old distinct cultures divided by geography as in Europe. The closest you could get is if Jews in NY tried to secede. Think different language, culture and history
2
The indian nations, the Cajun, and the Gullah have distinct histories and languages. The Indian nations are as ancient as anything in Europe. Can they leave with their lands? I don't mean with the sleazy reservations we forced them into.
1
Separatists are a minority, and more so now that all their lies have been uncovered. They are terrified of elections, and it will become clear why once they take place.
9
Spain, and Catalunya, will have to figure this out. Let them go about it without any undue external pressures.
My fervent hope right now is that our nutso president will not "weigh in" with some tweet or other. Let's hope not!
2
I hope not too, but he probably has never heard of Catalonia and is probably unaware of this issue.
2
No one pays him any mind.
Catalonia is Spain, so there is no Spain and Catalonia.
The antecedents of this event are long and complex. They extend back to the Spanish Civil War of the 1930's. Comments which fail to take this in to account do not make much sense.
2
All Spain suffered the dictatorship, and incidentally Catalonia fought in Franco's side. You are eating the secessionist's propaganda uncritically.
3
@ Rolling Inflation
Please check your facts. Catalonia fought hard against Franco.
3
Catalonia fought against Franco. Rolling Inflaton's comment underscores the need to know the history.
3
By way of example: California and Texas ranks first and third in total gross state product in USA, respectively (as Catalonia in Spain). Both States have Constitucions, elected Parlaments, Supreme Courts, Goverments, Police Forces, and powers on Education, Heath, Taxes, etc. Catalonia has the same powers, and in addition powers on Catalan language and many other political issues. Now. Imagine California or Texas Parlaments have representatives from two nacionalist far left parties (anti-capitalist, anti EU, anti NATO and expansionists) and a nacionalist conservative party, and they have 48% of the vote. Besides they have a Government formed by an alliance of those parties, which decides to declare the Independence of the State, breaking their Parlament rules, the State Constitucion and the USA Constitution. And once done that, they disobey the USA Congress and the USA Supreme Court orders. That is what the supporters of independence movement are doing in Catalonia. That has a name: putsch. Their basically reason: They do not want to share their money with poorer regions in Spain.
17
Exactly. Thanks for the analogy, it completely frames this in the right context rather than the propaganda that a lot of the Catalonian leaders seem to be espousing.
3
Their fight us for freedom and liberty. I wish the Catalans tbe best.
3
How naive. Catalonia IS autonomous. This is about political ambition.
5
This is a very dangerous and complicated situation, not something we are used to seeing in post WWII Western Europe. It is obvious from comments that there is a lot more going on than what is explained in this article. I am hoping that the NYT will soon publish an in-depth article on the subject, one that delves into the economic, cultural and geopolitical aspects of the conflict so that we may understand it better.
50
You are right that there is a lot more going that reported here. Puigdemont is in desperate need to quickly, and by any means, escape the clutches of the law before the ill-gotten fortunes that he and his buddies have stashed in Andorra’s banks are exposed to the world. His government is completely willing to risk the worst kind of social upheaval and ruin Catalonia’s economy for the benefit of a few, but very smart, crooks in power. Puigdemont and his cronies in the regional Catalan government are Europe’s most dangerous and reprehensible individuals.
The reality is that the Spanish Gov decided to break the Spanish laws by trying to crush the Catalan people and culture.
Article 155 only allows the Spanish gov to give instructions to the rebel autonomy, but says nothing about dissolving the parliament nor removing elected officials. Feel free to check it.
The funny fact is that the Spanish Gov could have easily solved the issue by restoring the Catalan Statute (Constitution) that was voted by the majority of the Catalan Parliament, the Spanish Parliament and the Catalan people in a referendum. Statue that was severely cut by the Spanish Constitutional Court, presided by a judge who recognised publicly that was a member of the Popular Party (nowadays Spain's ruling party). In case you are curious, the judge brother is the Spanish Civil Guard colonel that leads the Spanish police task-force sent to Catalonia.
Bear in mind that the Spanish Constitutional Court forbid many Catalan laws, including those about social equality, gender equality, and basic human rights.
Summarising, Spanish democracy is a joke. There's no actual separation of powers. Even the Spanish King that is meant to be neutral takes sides.
What created the pro-independence surge has been a mixture of people that simply want to live in a democratic country and those that want to protect Catalan culture. That's why so many Spanish-speaking Catalans are pro-independence.
5
BTW - one more fact - article 155 will mean new elections... REAL elections. if the separatist are really defending democracy then this is as democratic as it gets but of course, they don't want this because they know they'll lose because they don't have the majority. fact.
2
Really? Article 155 only allows the Spanish gov to give instructions to the rebel autonomy? Here is Article 155, which I translate. The text is as turgid as my translation, but you'll get the jest:
If an autonomous community would not meet the obligations that the Constitution or other laws would impose, or if it acted in a fashion that would gravely act against the interest of Spain, the Government, having previously questioned the President of the Autonomous community, and in case of not having being heard, and with the absolute majority approval in the Senate, will be able to adopt the measures necessary to force said community to the compulsory meeting of said obligations, or for the protection of the aforementioned general interest.
2
"Bear in mind that the Spanish Constitutional Court forbid many Catalan laws, including those about social equality, gender equality, and basic human rights."
Please show us evidence of this.
Suggested Reading: George Orwell's Homage to Catalonia. This will give you some of the underpinnings re language, culture and history issues attendant to Catalonia's independence wishes.
5
oh my - my thoughts exactly. it's as if he wrote that book predicting the situation in cataluña
The main problem in the Spain government and their institutions is the impossibilities of getting rid of all the old roots embedded, (call it like you want) and the gigantic country debt.
the Spanish government just needs to keep the country under tough control in order to keep paying the loan that itself is taking the country inevitably to the ruin.And now the lame Spanish government has somebody to blame for it.
I have never been independentist yet after all the last events my thoughts have changed, sadly.
3
Placing an entire region under federal control will only turn more average citizens against Rajoy. I have seen zero violence from Catalan side. This speaks volumes...
2
Spain's popular party is not a beacon of democracy. In 2005, the Catalan Parliament approved Catalonia’s statute. This statute was later approved by the Spanish parliament, as proper procedure called for, and then by referendum in Catalonia before coming into effect in 2006. Four years later, overruling the vote of the Catalan and the Spanish parliaments and the Catalan referendum, the PP filed an appeal with the Spanish constitutional tribunal, which resulted in the court’s annulment of much of the statute, including the definition of Catalonia as a nation, and curtailing competencies as diverse as judicial independence and banking oversight that were bestowed to the Generalitat.
In September 2015 the current Catalan government was formed following an election with a 77% turnout, higher than last year's Spanish general election (66%) and the last US general election (under 60%). In this election, pro-referendum parties received 61% of the popular vote, and anti-referendum parties received 39% of the votes. Of the 61% pro-referendum votes, 48% went to openly pro-independence parties, and 13% to uncommitted parties. It is therefore indisputable that there are more pro-independence and pro-referendum Catalans than anti-referendum Catalans.
With today's ruling, the Spanish government seeks to abolish a democratically elected government, and crush the legitimate aspiration of most Catalans who wanted to vote on a self-determination referendum.
3
OK, if said "democratically elected government" puts itself outside the law. No one is above the law.
1
I'm a Catalonian studying in the States.
The only demand of the Catalan "separatist" movement is the right to decide their own future, pacifically and democratically. A right that is backed by 80% of catalans and a majority in the Catalan Parliament .
For Spaniards, this right has been fiercely denied, using police brutality, with the solely argument of law and order to convince Catalonians to remain in Spain. By the way, a law that is interpreted in their own way, acting in a way that remembers some of the "political" actions by the dictator Francisco Franco.
In response, the Catalan people is going out in the streets in massive demonstrations. Again, pacifically and democratically. No violence, just votes.
In Catalonia there are a lot of people that feels just Catalonian. Because we speak Catalan, we know our history is distinct, and have a differentiated territory. Also, we have a negative fiscal balance with Spain of about 8% Catalan GDP (about 16bn€ annually), during more than 20 consecutive years. Indeed, a mistreatment from Spanish officials against our culture and identity that is constant. And above all, we have the believe that Catalonia could accomplish a lot more if it had their own chance to decide their future. Again, pacifically, democratically and acting according to the will of the people in Catalonia.
At the end, I cannot remember a lot of countries that reached their independence through democracy. It's what we want to do, and we need your help/support
6
I bet many rich provinces in China wants to be independent too if they can vote, just to keep their the fruits of their productive provincial economy, but would it make it a better world....in a long run.
1
The goverments of Cataluna in the last 30 years have systematically indoctrinated kids in the schools, modified history books, eliminated Spanish from every place (it is illegal not to have a sign in catalan) and has sold the message "we are different, we rare better". After the financial crisis in 2010 the slogan has been "Spain steals from us". All very attractive, convincing and orchestrated also by several "NGOs" with the only goal of working in the separatism". As a result, today the catalan society is divided, it is incredibly sad. Families, friends, neighbors, co-workers. Sad.
18
Unlike successive Spanish governments which have been teaching Castilian kids about the beauty of Catalan culture and language for the past 100 years. Oh wait...
3
Spain blocked the Catalans from having a legal referendum. There was a good chance that the referendum would have been in favor of staying part of Spain. But, the Spanish government blocked democratic process. Then, they used force to try to control the people after taking away their rights. This would be bad anywhere, but is especially dangerous in a region that was tortured by Franco with the consent of the people of Madrid. If the Catalans fight, this could be a transcendent moment for Spain and the world.
5
Even recent polls show that overwhelming majorities are against Catalan independence. That includes polls of Catalans.
9
In response to Wanderself: This is not about a governor or a single government entity declaring independence. This is about a whole people who have said "enough is enough", and are rejecting just such a rule by a single powerful entity. It is representative of the march of human history from violence and repression toward independence and self-determination.
You ask what would happen if the US would simply replace such a rebellious governor? Ok. Guess what? The people of your hypothetical California would not just say "oh, nevermind, it was all against the law." They would engage in massive, revolutionary, nonviolent protest.
Perhaps your new governor, handpicked by our wonderful President, would crush and forcefully imprison these unpatriotic law-breakers. And this would only strengthen the case of those repressed people, whose numbers and support would soon become unstoppable.
3
Well, Puigdemont was elected by the Catalan people and so were the representatives from the pro-independence parties who make up the majority in the Catalan parliament. This crisis was started by Madrid in 2010-2012, when Rajoy and his party objected to key articles in the Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia, something which had been in effect and approved by the Spanish parliament, the Catalan parliament and by Catalan voters in an legal referendum. It had been in existence since 2006. It took the Spanish court in Madrid four years to do away with those articles. This was perceived by most Catalans as a slap in the face and then the pro-independence parties became strong.
2
"Americans are free, in short, to disagree with the law but not to disobey it. For in a government of laws and not of men, no man, however prominent or powerful, and no mob however unruly or boisterous, is entitled to defy a court of law. If this country should ever reach the point where any man or group of men by force or threat of force could long defy the commands of our court and our Constitution, then no law would stand free from doubt, no judge would be sure of his writ, and no citizen would be safe from his neighbors."
J. F. Kennedy
Same applies to any modern democratic country. Spain among them. Catalonia independence it is a crazy marketing operation, mostly based on propaganda over the social media.
Catalonia and any other Spanish region already enjoys one of the the highest degrees of autonomy in the world, where only 20% of the Spanish budget is managed by the central Government.
With this intervention, the Spanish government is just taking control of finances (bankrupt economy) to ensure public sector and pensions are paid and also is calling for real elections in the next few months.
Current Catalan government is outside the law ... and nowadays in Catalonia "no citizen is safe from his neighbors". This is what is really happening. Now American can continue buying all these fake news and images anti-system movements are flooding in social media. It worked well for Brexit and for D.T. too. I think it is time to put a bit of common sense in all this.
15
I am Catalan, and I totally agree with you.
Please do not believe that all of us Catalans are for this craziness.
The independentist parties won the most seats in the Catalan Parliament, but not the popular vote.
I'm sick of all the propaganda. Please come to Catalonia (come to Tarragona, my hometown), and see how we live. We are a free people. We have a great standard of living. We can speak any language we want, say anything we want, demonstrate in the streets in any way we want, vote our representatives, and do everything the citizens of a developed democracy can do.
Those far-left independentists are trying to destroy my country, and they are doing a very good job at that. Over 900 companies have already left. Very soon the economy will tank.
I am so grateful the Spanish government is finally willing to step in and reestablish the rule of law.
24
To say Catalan aspirations for independence have ebbed and flowed over generations is a gross understatement. Perhaps the separatist movement is generational for modern Spain but the tensions stretch back centuries. I was first introduced to Catalan as a potentially independent nation in the context of Napoleon. A Catalan diaspora sided with the British for exactly this reason. The conflict was old news even at the time. No wonder the Basques sympathize with the Catalan separatists.
The Basque experience on the continent was arguably even worse. Their culture might be extinct if not for the formidable geographical obstacle presented by the Pyrenees. Not surprisingly, they sided with the British as well during World War II. Many of the downed aviators from allied bombings were smuggled home with the help of Basque separatists. Consider that for a moment when judging Rajoy's call for law and order in Catalonia.
The EU obviously disfavors disruption but I think the moral high ground belongs to the Catalans. I'm just waiting to see their response.
3
When I saw the violence being used against the Catalan people, I was appalled. I was for Catalan freedom. But as I read more about their complaints against the main government in Madrid, the protests seemed unnecessary. This should have been handled through the proper channels. Also, we find out that a survey of Catalan people, the majority want to stay with Madrid and follow the Spanish Constitution! So the protesters we're seeing are in the minority! Just as when the South in the US tried to succeed. It isn't going to happen, sorry Catalan people. Just because you're angry, doesn't mean you're right.
12
You are missing that over 80% of Catalans want a referendum. Even many who are against independence want a referendum, because that is the proper democratic way to move ahead. So at this point this has become less about a potentialn Republic of Catalonia, and more about being able to be a democratic country. Spain is obviously not a mature democracy as they are unable to handle different opinions in a civilized way. They are now sending protesters to jail, policemen to beat up voters, and taking over a democratically elected government and replacing it with an unelected government.
Once emotions are up all bets are off. If Madrid, that is, the nation-state Spain is the more powerful entity in the squabble, there's no reason for rhetorical belligerence. It's easy to say (or lie, whatever) democracy's at stake, we want to hear the collective voice of all Catalonians and that of all other Spaniards. Through regulated democratic processes the matter of autonomy status and even independence will be ferreted out. Independence may or may not be viable. Let's let cooler heads prevail.
Then do whatever.
Mr Rajoy is just applying the rule of law. Nationalism has never brought anything good for the people. I am not a fan of our President but he didn’t have any other option. Catalan seccessionists are spending public money just in their own interests and are not paying attention to the real needs of the people. They represent less than 50 % of Catalonians. While it is true that Catalonia has a distinctive culture and language it is not less true that many other regions in Spain also have it, including my own, Asturias. The added value of Spain is our multiculturalism and our common history. We are a very old country and we should be proud of our history, cultures and democracy which is a common ground and home for all of us.
115
As a person who has lived in Spain and loves the country and its people, I am deeply saddened by these events. It seems that independents vs. unionists are about equally divided, and that if the vote had just been allowed to happen, its outcome would have shown that. Rajoy's heavy-handedness created the 90% favorable to independence vote, and continuing that strategy will, I think, continue the anger and resentment. It would have been better to let the vote happen, and then talk about how to work things out. Now, who knows what is going to happen. . . .
President? Who?
Rajoy did to have options: to listen to the grievances of the Catalans; to allow the vote (and then not respect the results); to talk to them NOW before sending in troops. But Rajoy has turned a deaf ear to them for many years, and here we are.
4
There are two main reasons that there are so many Castilian-speaking people in Catalonia.
One, Catalan was viciously proscribed for hundreds of years, with special vehemence by the Franco government.
Two, many people moved to Catalonia in recent years from other areas because Catalonia is the economic powerhouse of Spain and they couldn't find jobs elsewhere.
2
The massive influx of Spaniards from all over Spain happened in Franco's time. The INI invested spare Spanish cash in Industry (textile, automotive) and job creation was spectacular
3
If those elections do take place, I'll be the most amazed person in Sarasota. The use of force by the Spanish government, the comments of the King and so much more are despicable. I would suggest that when those elections are held that an outside monitoring force would be present to be certain they are open, free and without coercion.
The best outcome would be for both sides to sit down, talk this is out and find a solution to this problem that goes back so long. Spain does not have centuries of democracy like a lot of the English speaking countries with President or monarchies responsible to an elected legislative body and a constitutional or precedent setting prohibition of not speaking on political issues.
If King Flipe need examples, there are plenty of European constitutional monarchies that are headed by a king, queen, prince, princess or whatever who are an asset to their countries. Spain is a western ally, a member of NATO and and country with a great cultural and historical line dating back centuries. Franco like tactics earn the respect of few for the Madrid government.
3
Let's make it clear that self-government was in fact suspended by Mr. Puigdemont on September 6 and 7 when his coalition unlawfully approved the so-called "law of disconnection" from the Spanish state and officially approved an illegal referendum. This is not a suspension of Catalonian self-government but a legal, that is, constitutional, attempt to restore it and to protect those millions of Catalans ignored by Mr Puigdemont and his allies.
26
Can’t someone somewhere step in here and negotiate a solution that’s a win win for everyone?
6
It is more than time that those who would break up a country to suit their egos are reined in . Catalonia has been part of Spain for a very long time and there is no good reason for change .
26
Says you who doesn't live there or have any stake there. The Catalan people have shown quite clearly that they have a good reason for change.
1
I am Catalan, and I want to stay.
Catalans who feel Spanish do not have a propaganda machine like the independentists do.
But remember that, in the last election, the independentists parties did not win the popular vote, although they barely got the majority of seats in Parliament.
Count votes, not heads at massive demonstrations. That is performance art, not real democracy.
This is a slow-motion and unnecessary car crash. It may seem intractable and impossible from within, but it would not be hard for Rajoy to step back, offer discussions about powers that the Catalan regional government wants and schedule an officially-sanctioned referendum for, say, 12 months hence. This could then afford the Spanish central government time to provide the Catalans with increased autonomy so as to reduce the chance of any referendum vointg in favour of full independence.
The (by the skin of its teeth-)United Kingdom can't offer its European partners much advice at the moment because of BREXIT, but does provide an object lesson in how to stave off concerted independence attempts.
Just saying "No" seems like a recipe for long-term trouble ahead and increased chances of secession one way or another.
53
What else can they offer when Catalonia has the highest level of self- govnmt in Europe? Scots and Northern Irish couldn’t even dream of iT!
4
Puigmont only wants independence, and he doesn’t care whether only 36% of Catalonians want it. How do you negotiate with that? He is destroying the economy of Spain and Catalonia at a time when we were just beginning to recover. I can´t wait to see him outsted. I used to have some sympathy towards his movement but I have none now.
10
You should know Catalonia already has a broader autonomy than Scotland.
4
The problem or essence with democracy is that it is not up to you but by all to decide what will be the end of what you want. Catalonia is doomed to start this no matter how much we love to visit Barcelona and also watch its famous football team to play.
2
Though Franco died in 1975, Spain's transition towards a democratic nation took several years; it was a process that was beset with ups and downs until a constitution in 1978, an attempted military coup, followed by regular elections starting in the early 1980s. It's too early to say what Mr. Rajoy's move really amounts to - it could be an attempt to force Puigdemont's hand again. But given the fact that Spain is, in historical terms, a young democracy, it is understandable that the Spanish public and the European community sees Rajoy's actions as very forceful. On the other hand, both Puigdemont and the Basques see the own claims for autonomy as simply the next logical step in Spain's march towards democracy.
10
It is not just Rajoy's action. Rajoy has announced what he intends to take to the senate for a vote. He seems to have the support of all the parties (representing more than 70% of the people) but the parties seeking independence themselves and the communist.
4
Spain's march towards democracy? Please. The 1978 Constitution, the peace, harmony and order since then plus the economic growth these past 39 years is a testament of Spain's bustling democracy.
6
They have autonomy. They've had it for years. They're claiming the right to secede which, as far as I am aware, is not permitted by any nation, democratic or otherwise.
1
Lots of folks here talk about rule of law and constitution. Who made this "rule of law and/or Constitution", it is the people.
People of Catalan have been suppressed for a long time. This is not a sudden reaction. It takes a lot to rile up an electorate in democracy. It has been simmering in the background for a long time and it has come to a head.
For Madrid to use heavy handedness at this juncture is to pour gasoline into the fire. There will be outright Civil War. Listening is important rather than talking.
8
Who made the rule of law? The Catalans, in part, given that they also approved the Constitution of 1978.
Second: “People of Catalan” [sic recte Catalans] have not been “suppressed” in Catalonia anymore than Lorca was “suppressed” at Columbia. If you, like me, had worked in Barcelona, you’d not venture so far in your hyperbolic description of life in Catalonia. If anything, speakers of Castilian are at a disadvantage, whereas, in Madrid, being a speaker of Catalan is considered a plus.
That you consider this “heavy-handedness” is surely a shock to the millions of Catalan moderates who want to remain with Spain and didn’t participate in a self-selecting, illegal “democratic” vote on independence. I’m sure you would be equally supportive of 20% of Cherry Hill deciding they don’t want to form part of the United States. I was expecting far more draconian moves from Rajoy (who I deplore). For once he acted reasonably.
8
Thank you, DMK.
I am one of those moderate Catalans who want to stay in Spain.
Why would I want to be part of a small country governed by far-left nationalist fanatics?
If you are not an independentist, you are not considered a "real" Catalan.
This is not about Spain vs. Catalonia, but about Catalans vs. Catalans.
I have seen friendships and families destroyed by this. It is just so sad.
1
The recent development in Catalonia shows the vagaries of elections and referendums. Spain is facing a constitutional crisis, just like Britain is embroiled in bad-tempered negotiations with Brussels, since it voted to leave the EU in 2016.
Elections come and go, but referendums like the Britain's vote on its EU membership and Catalonia's secession from Spain needed to be carefully prepared and staged. In both cases, the organisers had failed to set rules to define when a referendum will be binding or set a high bar for its passage.
The UK - with a population of 65.64 million (2016), the electorate was at 46,501,241. The turnout was 72.2% - 17,410,742 voted to leave (51.9%) and 16,141,241 voted to remain (48.1%).
The figures show that only 33,551,983 Britons - less than half of the country's population - caste their ballots, because many didn't register. The Leave vote could hardly be representative. Once such a referendum is held, the consequences can be devastating, and it is difficult to reverse the results or hold a new referendum.
Of the 7.523 million Catalans, only 43% of them said to have taken part in the independence referendum - 90% voted in favour. But many anti-independence supporters boycotted the ballot, arguing it was not valid. In this case the vote doesn't reflect the will of the majority. Like David Cameron, the Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont made huge miscalculations. Mariano Rajoy doesn't deserve any support for his heavy-handedness.
13
As my ancestors came from Spain so I have paid attention to this so called referendum and actions of both the Spanish government and autonomous Catalonia government. Your statistics bear out why this is inherently wrong. Most people in the U.S. pay not attention to Europe or for that matter to what happens in Spain. Both sides have been to absolute in their positions. Catalonia enjoys much autonomy and this will only partially suspended, but of course it is their own fault for not answering the question up front this past Monday whether they were declaring their "independence."
This is no different than any U.S. state deciding to go it alone and perhaps we might not miss one or two of them, but that does not legitimize their actions.
2
The Spanish government is well within its rights to suspend the local government. The Catatonian government held an illegal referendum and their actions have been irresponsible.
That being said, there is now - de facto - a crisis of legitimacy in Spain. The Spanish government cannot remain within the status quo. It has to start negotiating with its regional governments a new agreement that might involve either a devolution of power towards the regions or build some type of asymmetrical federalism. It might even have to hold an election to clear the air.
Agreements don't come easy but repressing an idea sometimes is at the source of terrorist actions. And in today's world, as we have seen recently, a lone gunman can inflict a lot of damage in a crowded city...
6
I wish it were option to have a legal referendum. Today, as we see the Spanish government actions, there is no way back. We just can't bear the humiliations any more. I believe that the Catalan government will keep the peaceful way toward Independent republic.
2
I understand and agree with you. Having the legal right to do something isn't always the best way to govern. Often, as it appears to be the case today, the Spanish government has put both its thumbs into its eyes. I hope that you get what you are looking for and I support your efforts. As a French Canadian who has supported Québec independence in the past, I can relate to the types of problems that you are confronting. Our problem was less our federal government than the high numbers of francophone federalists who had no courage to vote 'Yes' in 1995. Also, the lack of clarity of the referendum question made a possible win nuanced and confusing. For many - like me - that was the end of the battle. But for you, I hope that you get there! Take care.
2
As the Catalan national anthem goes:
Catalunya triomfant,
tornarà a ser rica i plena.
Endarrera aquesta gent
tan ufana i tan superba.
Catalonia triumphant
shall again be rich and bountiful.
Drive away these people,
Who are so conceited and so arrogant.
5
I see lots of conceit and arrogance on both sides at this troubling time in Spain's modern history.
1
Arrogant? Nationalists? Yes, they are!
1
You mean regional anthem. Catalonia is a region of Spain.
2
A thoroughly frivolous unwarranted drive for independence from a mild democratic national government.
This movement is more than likely bankrolled and organized by plutocratic interests that have seen a way to make a killing from it. Catalonia has been part of Spain for hundreds and hundreds of years. The political leaders behind this movement should be in jail for a very long time.
Europe will be picked clean if it acquiesces to the fragmentation of ancient organic entities like Spain into a rabble of ineffective independent regions or city states.
17
This article is full of inaccuracies, but the most glaring is the one that describes Article 155 of the Spanish Constitution as follows: —" a broad tool intended to protect the “general interests” of the nation". In fact Article 155 forbids acts--including secession-- that violate the Constitution, thus the supreme Law of Spain, not unlike what is prescribed in our own US Constitution, and all the Magna Cartas of the world. It also provides for penalties and destitution for those who attempt to subvert the Law. These provisions are not "broad". They are precise.
20
Catalonia dream of becoming an independent nation has no chance to succeed.
The Spanish central government will do whatever it takes to prevent such secession, including the use of force. The EU will not side with a separatist movement at this delicate moment of the EU integration process.
Nonetheless, the political atmosphere in Barcelona and Madrid today resembles that of 1936. A bad omen.
5
Actually not 1936 but 1934 when Companys (the Puigdemont equivalent then) declared independence and the left leaning Republic sent the troops in, quelled the rebellion and jailed Companys along with about 3000 others.
1
I cannot believe how short-sighted and self-serving Rajoy is being. He is treating Catalonia like a recalcitrant child or an unruly colony. He has nothing to gain politically by dialoguing or seeking a political solution in Catalonia (because his party gets 8% of the vote in that region), so he just squashes it all, denying that these citizens have any rights or grievances. True leadership would seek some kind of political solution or process of dialogue, recognizing that Catalans have long-held grievances for many reasons and that maybe, perhaps, there are some win-win solutions if they can get sit down and talk like adults. Instead, Rajoy hides behind the constitution and the judiciary, denying reality and refusing to listen to his own citizens (actually, beating them instead). And let's be clear, the Spanish judiciary is not very independent of politics. As a consequence, this will not go away and it's just going to get worse.
There is a long history here and the commentators who scold Catalonia or think it's just about nationalism have clearly not spent any time in Catalonia, studied the history, or even talked with Catalans. It's easy to have strong opinions from an armchair miles away when your own rights are not on the line. Hiding behind the defense of "it's illegal" is an impoverished position that does not understand history, complexity, and nuance.
15
Well Justine, I lived there 22 years and Catalonian blood runs through my veins so I think I may have a good perspective on what's happening. I'm no fan of Rajoy or the PP, but he did what he had to do. Do you for one minute think that the US would ever allow a state to unilaterally declare independence in a sham and illegal referendum? And if by chance they did, every single politician involved would be hauled off to Guantanamo, never to be heard from again. The damage these imbeciles have done to Catalonian society will take years to heal - if it heals at all. And I'm not talking about the banks or the businesses that have left (bad as it is) but the broken family ties, the life long friendships gone, the neighbors who no longer speak to each other... Do you realize how hard they've made life for ordinary people? I'm not preaching from an armchair, but from a broken heart in my Manhattan apartment.
33
Well said, Justine!
1
Would you like to debate with me about those grievances? About history too? About the Spanish judiciary system? I lived and work in Catalonia, I know well my country’s democracy and legal system, so I hope you do not consider me an ignorant.
I promise you a sincere and polite debate.
Systems are not perfect, like in any western democracy, but do not suggest that Spain’s legal is not independent (corrupt) when there is a good chance that anybody can accurately predict how the US Supreme Court is going to rule on a specific subject based on the political adscription of their members.
3
The 13 colonies declared independence, fought a war, and won. They became a separate country. The Confederate States declared independence, fought a war, and lost. They remained part of the U.S.
You can talk all you want about the legality or illegality of a secessionist ballot, but when push comes to shove, the bullet resolves it. God knows I wish it were otherwise.
11
I am right there with you. It is sad what is happening to the Catalan people, but the protests aren't helping, holding illegal elections aren't helping. Catalan is part of Spain and they need to working with the Spain Constitution to resolve their issues. Just like any other state or province, you communicate your needs and concerns and the main government with work with you. Making threats against the main government Will Not work. In the US the South got shut down. And so will Catalan.
But the world is supposed to have matured since then. Inside the EU, particularly, democracy is supposed to be a foundational value.
It was this or be impotent. The left, represented by the NYtimes, immediately chimes in and says he is making things worse.
And would the times please stop with this "Catalonia's leader" and "Spain's leader" stuff which half-recognizes Catalonia as a country? It is a region with a rebellious person at the top, soon to be out of office.
27
To The NY Times - why did it take 2/3 of the article to mention that one of the main reasons for invoking article 155 is to hold new elections in Catalonia? And why are you quoting mostly pro-independent politicians and members of Podemos (a party that is extremely leftist and radical, and has offered little to help solve this crisis) when you almost never speak of Ciudadanos, a party that is part of the governing coalition. They've been the most involved in this situation besides Rajoy himself and are even the main opposition party in Catalonia. It worries me that you aren't doing a good enough job diversifying your sources to gather information on this topic.
50
Hello, have you ever read any Spanish newspapers, just to be sure from where are they gathering the information, and be sure of their impartiality? C'mon!
1
That's very easy to explain; because Mr. Minder is very friendly with the pro Independence movement, as well as a frequent guest on TV3. I'm not sure if my comment will be published though, since any criticism of Mr. Minder's reporting and biases is rarely approved.
6
Despite all the rhetoric, this is about money.
Specifically, it's about the giant sums of money loaned to Spain by German and French banks. If Catalonia succeeds in its secession efforts, they don't have to be involved in paying back the loans. Spain, for its part, needs as much tax revenue as it can get, so letting Catalonia walk would make it nigh-impossible to meet its sovereign debt obligations. The EU, since it is dominated by Germany and France, is demanding that Mr. Rajoy keep Catalonia under control, by force if necessary, in order to satisfy their banks.
This is going to get very very ugly, quite possibly with a body count involved, and it's all because of banks who were willing to take the rewards of riskier investments without taking on the risks of those investments.
39
Money which was spent in abundance in Catalonia. That’s truly a positive of getting kicked out of the EU, not having to pay your bills. Viva Madrid independiente!
4
Mr. Rajoy is doing Catalonia a favor by removing Mr. Puigdemont who has led the region and the country into an unnecessary and dangerousness crisis. Catalans can now vote for a better leader who will hopefully take a more competent and strategic path for Catalonia.
35
The only contemporary separatist movements with any merit are that of Kurdistan and, close second, NYC from NYS. The rest are tedious vanity projects and the Catalan one might be the most vain and baseless of all. They make the French-Canadians look dignified.
The only real geopolitical question in Iberia should be why isn’t Portugal part of Spain as well? Talk about the narcissism of small differences....
15
Although regrettable, the Spanish central government had no choice but to take this action.
33
At the heart of this— and similar cases in Kurdistan, Quebec, Kashmir— is the complex case of “identity”. Under which cases does national or international law trump right of self determination? It’s something that needs to be solved as societies become more intertwined and yet nationalism (read identity) plays an increasing role
2
So, the Spanish barely get the Baath separatists to stop bombing Madrid and other cities, and now they want to create terrorists in the Catalanian population
Smart!
2
I think you mean "Basque", not Baath.
3
The regulation of guns in Spain is highly restrictive. The bearing of arms by civilians is not considered a right but a privilege that may be granted by the government if legal conditions are met. Guns are regulated by the Ministry of the Interior through the General Directorate of the Civil Guard. Different types of licenses are required according to the type of weapon to be used. Firearms licenses for personal security are restricted to those who can prove that a real danger to their security exists.
Give them their sovereignty if they voted for it. It'll just sow more resentment to subjugate Catalonia.
5
Subjugate? My goodness!
4
They're calling for elections, now with all cards very visibly on the table unlike the previous ones--a peculiar form of subjugation.....
5
Spain should take lessons on manufacturing consent from the English and their handling of the Scottish referendum. This heavy-handed approach by Rajoy et al will resolve nothing and likely sow bitter seeds for future unrest.
25
the UK is the union of sovereign kingdoms and Scotland was an independent kingdom at some point, contrary to Catalonia. Also, the Scottish referendum was agreed and legal while the one in Catalonia was illegal. To make it legal, they only have to amend the constitution.
27
That “Lesson” can’t be taken. We have a Constitution, unlike GB , and it states that no unilateral secessionist referendum can be carried out. The only lawful way would be having all Spanish citizens vote.
2
Mr. Minder omits that all of this is merely a proposal that Rajoy must submit to the Senate for approval, which won't happen for 10 days and that it's fundamentally about calling for new elections. In the meantime, it's in Puigdemont's hands to call elections within the current Constitutional framework. Yes, it would make a big difference to see election results now that a number of realities, suppressed by the secessionists to date in their promise of pie in the sky for everyone, have been brought clearly to light: (1) the economic paradise they were promised (that companies would come running) has been denied in just 10 days by the flight of 1200 Catalonian company headquarters and counting, including all the major ones (typical response: it's just a tiny percentage of businesses [but they represent 50% of the community's GNP]) & (2) the EU is not running joyously to embrace them (or trembling with fear), both staples of secessionist rhetoric to date. Many Catalonians voted for secessionist parties in recent elections to protest austerity cuts mandated by Brussels and Berlin, carried out by the right-wing PdeCat leadership (basically a Catalan-speaking PP, with corruption scandals that boggle) but conveniently blamed on "Madrid." W/new elections there'd finally be occasion for a full debate about pros & cons. A yes to independence is unlikely to emerge: so my bet is the secessionists will boycott; they're not interested in democracy if it doesn't turn out their way.
46
Spain and Europe have shown their true colors. Each one of us will decide which. Leave abundant blame on both sides for a moment. The sense of identity by people and cultures has existed since humanity evolved on the Planet and will not vanish. Politicians can: 1) absorb it with intelligence and political skill for the sake of peace, prosperity and pluralism, as Spain had been slowly moving towards until now or 2) resist and suppress it only to feed radical nationalism. The Spanish government and Europe have made their choice. They are the parents of their respective disgruntled families and, as such, they are ultimately responsible for the consequences of their choices. Nice lesson!
4
So 40 years of virtual independence in almost everything is not politically skill then. Ok, Yes spain is a dictatorial country of course
5
A very painful but necessary step to remove a rogue regional government and restore constitutional order. The only possible way out to suffocate a very destructive rebellion that has destroyed the region's wealth and created massive division of a society that used to live in peace until just a couple years ago. Let's press the reset button, have elections, and start the long process of healing our Catalan society.
37
Rogue government? The current Catalan government was elected in September 2015 with a 77% turnout, the highest in history not only in Catalonia but in Spain. By contrast, the current Spanish government was the result of general elections last year with a 66% turnout, and Trump was elected in the US last year with barely a 50% turnout. What do you think will happen if fair elections are held again in Catalonia? The pro-independence parties will win again, probably by a much larger margin. Unless of course, they are banned, which is a distinct possibility
4
It's difficult to understand the problem without taking into account that the real stand-off is between the Catalan government (48% of the votes) and the opposition (52%). Catalan surveys show that the independence issue divides Catalonia in two parts along ethnic lines (Ceo.gencat.cat). Most Catalan speaking Catalans or with Catalan family origin are pro independence; and most Spanish speaking Catalans or with family origin in the rest of Spain are unionist.
The Catalan government, acknowledging the difficulty of winning a sufficiently big majority in free regional elections, chose to bend the rule of law, approving laws against the rules of its own regional constitution, forcing a so-called referendum after dismantling the Commission overseeing it. That is why the only matter the Catalan government wanted to dialogue about was independence.
So, it is a stand-off between the government coalition and the opposition with Spanish government forcing everybody to comply with the law and calling in the coming months a snap regional election. Should pro-independence parties get, say 60% of the vote, a legal referendum would be unstoppable.
Thus, why all the fuss?
113
The situation is somewhat similar to Northern Ireland where most of the Unionists, who want to stay in the UK, are descended from Scots, Welsh, & English settlers who were "planted" in an ethnically Irish area and outnumber the ethnically Irish. In Catalonia, the majority of ethnically Spanish speakers who want to stay in Spain were "planted" in Catalonia by Franco to dilute the ethnically Catalan-speaking population and make the region Spanish.
Santiago, you got your numbers wrong. Pro-independence parties got 48% of the popular vote, that is correct. But anti-independence parties only got 39% of the votes. The remaining 13% of the votes went to parties that supported a referendum but were uncommitted as to whether they would vote for or against independence. So the only thing that's certain is that there are more pro than anti-independence voters, and that 61% of voters wanted a self-determination referendum.
3
I agree that Catalan politicians have been startlingly opportunistic in venturing down a poorly-planned path to this referendum.
But Puigdemont was very correct that with every confrontation from the Spanish government, support for separatism (or at least opposition to Madrid) has grown.
The separatist movement was probably going to decline to being a smaller and smaller minority, but the Rajoy has instead given Catalan separatists propaganda for a generation and eroded support among anti-separatists within Catalonia.
If Rajoy had handled the situation with less confrontation, more political savvy, and more appearance (even if not substance) of collaboration, then the separatists would still look like reckless nationalists.
I guess Spain has learned something from the British political and economic disaster of Brexit at all levels of that country's leadership. The Catalonian independence movement is an extremely vocal Minority. But it is always fed by the romantic notions of old soixante-huitard lefties the world over. Spain is unequivocally saying we only deal with adults.
17
To hope that all this will not lead to the Third Civil War in Spain.
The position of the Madrid government is clear: it does not wish to see the secession of the Catalans and Basques, and no further shrinkage of the uncompleted expansion of the Spanish Kingdom within the domain of its "manifest destiny" of the whole Iberian Peninsula.
2
My goodness! Go and ask basques and catalans in France and then come back and compare
4
Europe, meaning the European Parliament, actually insisted that there should be separate parliaments for Wales, Scotland, England, and Northern Ireland as part of the Uk requirement to be a member of the European Parliament when the original 1992 initiative was being agreed to by the UK. So ....we were forced to devolve parliament , by European interests, to smaller segments that , to those who are British culture, seem to serve no purpose what so ever and never ever would or will.
Now we come to Spain!
A Catalon Celtic Indo European history faction wishes to be independent. Spain wishes to push her around. Yet Europe provides no support to object to the wishes of Spain what so ever. Why? If Wales is entitled to separate culture and Scotland is entitles to separate culture then so should Catalan which is an equal Celtic Culture country the same as Wales, and Scotland and the Isle of Mann. Send the European Army in now to Spain or be accused of double standards!
Why are Europe not objecting on the basis of racism and sending in the international army to support celtic Indo European culture in Catalan?
Andy Siddle
www.sirandrewsiddle.com
3
To commentators who simply think this is a bit of atavistic nationalism at work:
Millions of people have been demonstrating every year in Catalonia, demanding structural changes to their relationship to the Spanish state that would protect their culture and autonomy within a unified country. They were systematically ignored (and worse, told off and belittled) by the central government. As a result, the numbers of Catalan separatists have swelled. The Spanish state could have avoided the radicalization of Catalan society by simply listening and talking and negotiating, but their narrow-minded, heavy-handed Francoism got in the way.
Most recently the Spanish state could have behaved like the UK in Scotland: allow the referendum but *make the case* for why Catalonia should remain part of Spain. Instead they tried to shut everything down and sent in the police with batons, hitting ordinary citizens trying to express their political will.
Rajoy is very deluded if he thinks the problem will go away with repression. The Catalans have been here before (when they were crushed by Franco) and have a long view of the situation. Discussion and compromise is the only way forward.
92
Unbelievable. You cannot say more wrong things even if you try. Actually, I think you did it on purpose.
1
You are right, but Constitution in Spain does not allow a referendum to decide indepence of one region. Actually only the Constitution of Ethiopia allows that. Negotiation would have been better, but they decided to hold an illegal referendum.
1
Spot on.
Where I live, in Occtania (which at one point comprised parts of Catalonia), I'm constantly amazed by the deep attachment of its natives to language, culture and history that date back hundreds of years. Governments ignore the significance of these attachments at their peril.
One of the primary reasons for Catalan resistance to Spain is Franco's ruthless repression tactics, including banning the language. Rajoy is foolish to go the repression route and expect a different result.
3
Politicians are always saying they love "small business", and how government should be small and limited ("state's rights" anyone?), and how the family is the most sacred unit of organization in the world. All of this talk is rank hypocrisy.
The most important thing in the world for a politician, is to maintain as powerful and large a nation as possible, and to crush any dissent or criticism of such nationalism. The only reason we don't organize ourselves into smaller nations, with more sane foreign policies based on nonviolence, is that it threatens a world order based on the rule of elites over common people.
Full support to my brothers and sisters in Catalonia who are trying to organize a smaller-scale, peaceful community and abandon an ancient, violent form of government.
7
Reminds me somewhat of Canada's Quebec separatism movement, that went from a simmer to a boil in the fall of 1970 (I was a grad student at U. of Toronto then) and continued in various forms for 30+ years more. In addition to language reforms a tangible result was the geographic restructuring of the banking industry: the head offices of the major banks moved from Montreal to Toronto, and stayed there. That has had long-term economic impacts on the two cities. At least two banks have, at least symbolically. moved their head offices of record from Barcelona to locations outside Catalonia.
106
I'd like to expand on Ginnie Kozak's comment. Quebec unilaterally created the option to secede. Voting took place on October 30, 1995, and featured the largest voter turnout in Quebec's history (93.52%). The "No" option carried by 54,288 votes (50.58%). Imagine if the Separatists had won the referendum!
On the other hand, is it possible to secede unilaterally?
Another fifth referendum was held on June 11, 2017, with "Statehood" and "Independence/Free Association" initially as the only available choices.* The majority voted to stay associated with the United States.
Could there possibly be a sixth referendum?
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rico
1
I was a student at U. of Montreal in the 1970's. Then, Montreal was "the city" of Canada, not Toronto. The separatist movement started the swing from Montreal to Toronto. I live now in Toronto, one the greatest cities in the world to live in. Barcelona, one of the greatest cities NOW in the world.....wait and see.
3
Good times. The election of the separatist PQ in 76 resulted in the greatest peacetime exodus in modern history, five hundred thousand of Quebec's finest (including two of this reader's three brothers). As impactful as it was, as diminished economically as it left our beautiful city of Montreal and its anglophone community, smaller scale development left us better off for it in the end.
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition, but democracy does seem to be - as it was under Franco - in big trouble there. I don't claim to know much more about Spanish politics than I can glean from this article, but it's clear the Catalans aren't going to be bullied into submission by Mr. Rajoy's threats. Sooner or later Madrid will have to grant them some autonomy if not outright independence.
79
Well, check the Economist's democracy index (https://infographics.economist.com/2017/DemocracyIndex/) Spain is above the US, so it seems their troubles with democracy are not as bad as in the US.
6
Catalonia has been an autonomous community, beginning in 1979.
5
The Catalans have almost complete autonomy now -- everything short of independence.
5
Mañana at its best as perfected by the insurrectionist Puigdemont.
"What do want?!"
"Independence!!!"
"When do want it?!"
"Maybe tomorrow!!!"
And don't get me started on the faulty mathematics. When 92% wrote "!Si!" but only 43% went to the polls, that is not a majority.
18
And it was those AGAINST independence that stayed away from the polls because they saw it as an illegitimate referendum, which it was.
2
Actually it is. Happens all the time all Over the world...especially here.
What about the 39% of voters against independence and against a referendum from the 2015 elections? How is that a majority. You will at least concede than in the 2015 elections, 61% of the vote went to pro-referendum parties, and of these 48% went for pro-independence parties (the remaining 13% went to pro-referendum parties with an uncommitted position). How can the 39% decide over the 61% or the 48%? By the way, the turnout on that election was 77%, 11% higher than Spain's general election last year, and almost 30% higher than the average turnout over the past 40 years in US general elections, so it's pretty conclusive
2
Rajoy is playing directly into Puigdemont’s hands, who, it appears, will soon have enough Rajoy meat to level credible charges to the EU, of both, violation of human rights, and also removal of democracy, on significant section of EU citizens, making EU intervention, because Spain’s membership is underlined on maintaining such, no longer optional, but of urgent and obligatory need.
In other words, the Catalonian problem is no longer a test of Mr. Rajoy’s leadership or political ability, both which he’s shown determined to prove he’s devoid of, no longer a question of Spanish constitutional legality, but an EU political problem that promises to belong and grow squarely in EU’s court, with or without invitation.
So what *can* Spain do to keep Catalonia within its borders? The first order of business would be to vote down 155, which ought to bring about the removal of Rajoy, and hopefully a leader who won’t hesitate to negotiate, in complete and demonstrable good faith, greater autonomy for Catalonia, with Puigdemont.
The likelihood of that happening is unfortunately as low as a bullfighter in Madrid hugging a charging bull, which is how Puigdemont is currently viewed by his Madrid opponents. He’ll have to take his case to the EU, whose only experience in bullfighting of the separation variety thus far, is asking the Brexit bull to please just go away. Interesting times ahead.
5
All people should have the right to democracy and self-determination, even if the people sometimes make stupid choices.
13
What is your definition of people?
How do you define a people? In the Spanish constitution, sovereignty rests with the Spanish people. If Catalonia is sovereign to vote independence, would parts of Catalonia which wish to remain part of Spain be allowed to secede from Catalonia? It is a slippery slope.
11
Remember that the now president of the Catalan parliament (as of today) said explicitly that Spanish political parties (and that pesky 50% who voted for them, we assume) were "enemies of the Catalan people". Here we have democracy in action: I decide who is peolple (one of us) and who is enemy. why? Because I said so
2
This heavy-handed move is completely wrong and counter-productive. It will, at a minimum, only fuel determination to secede from Spain and confirm suspicions that Catalons are not respected.
At worst, this is building up to another Spanish Civil War.
164
If the governor of California proclaimed California was not anymore a state of the USA but an independent country, would the US courts and government not replace him or her? Why is this different?
7
Hi Wanderself,
Please keep in mind that Catalon's secessionist movement has been going on for years and is in no way limited to one leader or Governor, from your comments. It would continue even with a power change.
This is a matter of identity. Truthfully, my own preference would be for Catalonia to stay with Spain, but I cannot support interference with Catalons' politics or obstructing Catalons' voting, as Spain did. The only promising route would be listening to Catalons about how they could be represented as part of Spain.
Thank you for taking the time to reply to my post. Best regards.
56
Okay, so the only way to prevent secession is to allow it.
1
Waiting for Donald Trump to weigh in on this an overnight Tweet. I'm assuming he thinks this is the place to which the swallows return every spring.
5
First, he needs to know if he can make a deal for hotels or if Putin agrees it's worth it.
4
LOL! That made me laugh!
1
The rule of law is sacrosanct in this case: much like our American Supreme Court and Texas v. White, the Spanish Tribunal Constitucional de España has declared the referendum illegal. As such, any talk of the secession of Catalonia is ipso facto illegal; any actions Mr. Rajoy takes must be seen in that correct light. (There is no right to unilateral secession absent negotiations regarding truthful representation of all views, and said views were repeatedly ignored by Mr. Puigdemont in his quixotic quest.)
82
So by that logic South Africa should not have ended apartheid. Obviously you have worded it as "in this case" but why. Why is it sacrosanct only in this case? Why can't the Catalan nation rise to its destiny?
5
Every case is different... there is no comparison here with ending apartheid in South Africa. Boggles the mind...
4
Are you comparing a democratic system like the one in Spain (according to The Economist rated higher than the US, for instance. https://infographics.economist.com/2017/DemocracyIndex/) with an oppressive regime without any civil rights for the majority?
1
Maybe we could have a Union of Failed States: Catalonia, Quebec, Wallonia, Brittany, Corsica, Berkeley, etc. These little bits cannot offer their populations anything but nationalism in a world where critical mass is necessary for economic success. Britain is joining soon, too. Catalonia needs to lay down their 19th century nationalism and try to work out a way to exist in Spain for the future of their children.
11
Wallonia has never asked for independency or more autonomy, it's Flanders
that is trying to establish a confederal state. There is also no nationalist party in Wallonia but there are two in Flanders and one of them,the N-VA (New Flemish Nationalists), is the largest party both in the federal ant the Flemish government.
2
Catalonia is a melting pot just like the US, so this does not come from the 19th century. Most of us are people thet have roots in Spain from some of our progenitors, we have become nationalist because we live the day by day reality !
6
XAVIER: When will you accept the fact that Catalonia is not a country, and has not been one for over 600 years (if it ever was). It is a REGION...get it?
1
If the governor of California proclaimed California was not anymore a state of the USA but an independent country, would the US courts and government not replace him or her? Why is this different?
302
But what if California had the majority of its citizens behind it, like Catalonia does?
It would not be right for the US to do that, and it isn't right for Spain.
3
I am sure they would have had dialogue before that, wich has not taken place here.
@Wanderself
Bad example. They’ll do what they always have, chuckle at Jerry Brown, and continue waiting-out the days when he’ll finally move to his retirement dream: a shack in the midddle of the desert, running on solar power for electricity, and reprocessed urine for water. Let’s hope he’ll do it soon.
2
We ask for dialogue and on return we get the goverment elected by the people suspended! they really don't know the reality of their suposed own country.
13
The central government insists that the proposed dialogue was framed by the independents government as meaning how will Spain accept succession. Not sure what to make of it, right?
1
Dialogue you say when the only thing Mr. Puigdemont wishes to negotiate are the terms of a negotiation of separation for Catalonia? No Spanish president would or is allowed by our own Constitution to do so. There have been multiple offers for Mr. Puigdemont and his supporting groups to participate in conversations about regional finances, the territorial system, and so on but they have declined to participate as the only thing they would negotiate are the terms for secession. Enough of this hypocrisy and empty offers for dialogue.
16
Dialogue?
What dialogue?
Basically, Mr Putschdemont point was:
"We, a MINORITY of Catalans just illegally voted for independence and declared it. We are so nice that we even suspended it so that we can talk."
Talk about what? Fiscal amnesty for Catalan leaders whose accounts in Andorran banks will be communicated to Spanish fiscal authority on Jan. 2018?
It is worth mentioning that Mr Rajoy DID answer to this opening by proposing to hold the application of Art.155 if Mr Putschdemont organized general election in Catalonia.
Of course, Mr Putschdemont knows that by now, elections would be a disaster for him (more than 1000 companies already moved their legal headquarters out of Catalonia), so he didn't move an inch from his position.
And you dare call this dialogue!
29
This article does not mention one important point of Mr. Rajoy's decision: Mr. Puidgemont will not be allowed to participate in the upcoming elections nor will he be allowed to present candidates.
2
Puigdemont would be removed because he's repeatedly violated even the Catalan parliament's own laws regarding major issues such as a referendum. But his party and every other secessionist party would be able to field candidates.
11
Are you sure they will be able to field candidates? Because this is early days in the current episode of repression of Catalonia. There is always the possibility (already mooted by opportunistic minority parties) that pro-independence parties will be outlawed. So, the question is at what point will the actions of the Spanish state be recognised as anti-democratic? Presumable, Jason, you are okay with jailing of political adversaries and a takeover of Catalan media (TV3 and Radio Catalunya) because that is already happening or about to happen. If Madrid outlaws pro-independence parties (as opposed to merely threatening their leaders with 30 years imprisonment and negating the results of the last election which brought a plurality of independence parties into power) will you then admit that PPSOE (Rajoy and his partners) are anti-democratic? What we are seeing is fascism creep.
1
I think you should refrain from attributing to me things I never even implied. I oppose Rajoy and the PP and think he's completely mishandled the situation; I also favor a revised Constitution that openly and forcefully recognizes Spain's plurinationality as a strength (and that promotes, for instance, the learning of all Spanish languages, sharing of regional broadcasting across Spain, and coordination of history textbooks by historians fully respected everywhere in Spain); finally, I would like to see the flag-waving set aside so that we can get to the bottom of the corruption scandals marring both the governing coalitions (in Barcelona god knows no less than in Madrid), both of them precariously holding on and in need of flag-waving distractions. However, I don't think that one kind of "fascism creep" justifies another--and a governing coalition that tramples its own laws regarding sufficient majorities for major decisions such as referenda and takes 47% of the vote as a "mandate," when it's not even a simple majority and includes a very large element of protest against austerity cuts carried out by the Catalonian government but conveniently blamed on "Madrid," is itself already participating in "fascism creep."
3
NYT why do you refuse to cover the other side of the story? This is not professional journalism. Why don't you question the ilegality of the sececionist movement? Spain is a democratic nation with a Constitution and the Constitution clearly establishes that any changes in the UNITY of the nation can only be voted by the entire Spanish people not just a few Catalonians who believe they are above the law!. Would the USA allow say... Texas or California to secede without Washington consent? Would the other states of the Union have anything to say??. PLEASE NYT try to be more accurate and less partisan with your coverage of Spain.
202
It was completely illegal (in British law) for the settlers to throw out the British and form a country. Yet they did.
8
No, the constitution would have to be changed to allow a state to exit. However, this doesn't mean that the citizens of Texas and California cannot be asked, via a ballot measure, whether the state should consider secession. This is the issue with Rajoy: instead of permitting a referendum and making the case for why Catalonia should remain part of Spain -- like the UK did with Scotland -- he resorted to the old Francoists methods.
12
Yes indeed. And it is not a Francoist constitution as some suggest, but a modern constitution inspired by the German federal system, down to the proclamation of the unity of the nation and the ability of the central government to require the regions to comply with the laws and ultimately remove rogue regional governments if they do not.
130
Brings to mind George III and America.
6
May I ask why? I offer sincere and polite discussion based upon facts. One example, taxes set by Spain’s Central Government are the same in Madrid and Catalonia. However, there is portion decided and added by the Local Government, hence, if taxes are higher in Catalonia that was a decided by Catalonian Government.
10
No it doesn't.
4
Yes, it does.
1
The events unfolding in Spain and Catalonia involve conflict but are amenable to reason and rule of law it seems. Hooray for Spain.
17
Make no mistake here: Carles Puigdemont is no angel. He has been searching for confrontation since the beginning and left Rajoy with no other choice. Puigdemont did not even respect the rules of his own catalan parliament to organise the referendum. He is now even ready to risk a civil war for what, since the beginning, is a lost cause. This is not courage, this is stupidity.
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