"Under the dictatorship of Gen. Francisco Franco, F.C. Barcelona was a symbol of Catalan resistance to the central government". False. See the club directive with the dictator in the 1974 photograph: https://www.google.es/search?q=fotos+del+barcelona+con+Francisco+Franco&...
I know it is difficult to understand and to accept it, but Catalan independency mouvement is not a ethnic matter.
It's transversal, and it receives the suppor of descendents of migrants who came in the 60's and 70's to work here.
It's more about three subjects : the dignitiy of self ruling ; the economic and investment issues ; and the cultural aspect.
Nothing more, nothing less.
3
What is produced in Catalonia since september 6, passing by the false referendum on 1st october and to reach today is a rebellion against the rule of law. It is a rebellion against democracy, against freedom and respect to law. It is a rebellion against european values and the peaceful framework to be defended. What the government of Spain has done is precisely the same as any democratic government of the world made: Defend the european values against the national-populists, those who are opposing to the primacy of the law, the rule of law and the European values.
I have worked as an electoral observer in many countries and i have seen it in Catalonia was the greatest "irregular" referendum I have seen in all my professional career (illegal, irregular, without any warranty, or control, or reliable control).
I would like to see that the Times ceases to be really partial in that matter and stands in favour of democracy and the law. Why does not the Times talk about the right of secession in Texas or California? Why do you always try to destabilise the European states?
21
More Catalan/Barcelona history vs Spain/Franco, and probably earlier, would help put the argument in context.
Like the Barca president who was killed by Franco loyalists in Spain, during the Spanish Civil War.
6
Spain may well beat down the Catalan independence movement. In doing so it joins the illustrious company of China, Turkey and Myanmar. Congrats!!!
12
This article fails to give any indication of why the separatists think their lives would be bettered by independence.
18
What Mr, Puigemont and some members of the government of Catalonia has done it is illegal under rhe Spanish Constitution. It is the the equivalent of California voting illegally, to separate from The United States of America.
13
Catalonia is Spain , and many towns fly the Spanish flag, also the rest of Spain is now flying more Spanish flags than ever before , enough is enough
7
This is not often reported but from The Guardian...."Only a minority of Catalans took part (turnout was 43%), and its organisation ran counter to Catalonia’s own legislation. The two laws that led to it were voted through without the two-thirds majority the Catalan charter (the Estatut) requires for such a momentous reform process. Nor was the vote overseen by the regional constitutional court. The Council of Europe, Europe’s democracy watchdog, said it did not abide by its fundamental criteria. Reporters without Borders, an organisation that scrutinises freedom of the press, denounced the harassment and intimidation – sometimes physical – of reporters who did not toe the pro-independence line."
22
I love this guy! “I think it’s very difficult if you don’t live in Catalonia, and if you didn’t live under the dictatorship, to understand the situation,” said the fan, Sergio Sanchis, 47, who was 5 years old when Franco died and who has enjoyed 42 years of prosperity in a peaceful democracy within the EU!
22
You should not compare the independence movement in Catalonia to Brexit. They are basically opposite movements. Independence in Catalonia is more than a separatist movement and it is only enhanced by the global nature of its capital and the country as a whole. Independence from Spain isn't about isolation, tribalism or a craving for borders. The Catalan independence movement is based on plurality, globalisation, cosmopolitanism... the need to be free to join the world. It is, in fact, a movement against the tribalism, nationalism and violence of the Spanish government. A large unionist demonstration in Barcelona? Sure, still, less than a fifth in number of any pro independence rally in the same city, with a big portion of those taking part in it coming in coaches from Spain. Spain has lobbies, embassies, exerts pressure on governments (ask the Belgian Prime Minister) and the media (ask any newspaper in Catalonia)... I understand it is hard to write objectively on the matter, but please remember: objectivity doesn't imply neutrality. In the face of police brutality, lack of separation of powers, disregard for democracy, enforcement of political imprisonments... I would hope the NY Times to be objective, but never neutral.
10
For those of us mystified about the background behind Catalan independence movement at this time it would be helpful if the NYT did a review article that explains the pros and cons for Catalonia's separation from the rest of Spain.
9
The Spanish reaction, harsh and veering toward violence, Is decreasing the legitimacy of the Union. These events have increased my respect for Václav Havel and velvet divorce. Hats off to leaders use persuasion and eschew violence.
10
Maintaining that everyone had the right to vote in the referendum neatly ignores that the referendum was self selecting, having been declared illegal by the State to which apparently the majority of Catalan residents Those who do not approve of separation did not by extended logic vote. leaving the voice to those who were passionate enough about separation not only to defy a law of the land but to risk injury for their arrests. The numbers which can be extruded from the vote indicate that as the actual support of secession may be below 40%. (90% of the 40% who voted approved,)
Considering the effect on secession on Puigdemont's career, it would be very hard to believe that actions are at least in part not self serving., Nor is Rajoy, whose boneheaded refusal to engage in an adult dialog over the issue fueld the emotions of otherwise disinterested residents, without an agenda.
What we have here are two gangs who couldn't shoot straight in a Catalan stand off.
The ham handed employment of the Guardia National is a disgrace to the nation. Unsupportable claims that the exit would profit Catalan carry the stench of the claims in the US that removal ACA could benefit that population. There is no good player in this game.
My personal interactions would indicate that a large portion of Catalan residents are opposed to a separation that would be the Brexit of Spain.
Written from the Raval.
4
I've lived in Barcelona for two and a half years. It's the safest, most well-integrated society I've every seen - well was, until Madrid sent 5,000 armed troops. I personally know three non-Catalans who would never dreamed of voting for independence, who, in disgust at the police brutality they saw on TV, went out to the "illegal" referendum and voted "yes" - and I know that for a fact.
What disgusts me is the almost palpable hatred from Rajoy and his deputy when they speak about the Catalans. If Madrid had ignored the referendum because, as they say, it was against the constitution, nothing would have happened, absolutely nothing. People would have got on with their lives, end of story.
What I think is really happening is that Madrid for a long time have been angered by the way that the Catalans teach their own language in preference to Spanish in schools. They want to go back to the old days when Catalan in schools and books was banned. I also think their is opportunism because they have brought in measures to make it easier for Catalan businesses to move out.
In this, the EU has been shown to be fully obsessed with untiring against the UK.
In contrast, in a democratic system, in the UK, Scotland had its vote and the SNP has now lost half of its seats. When Scotland's Andy Murray, who was in favour of independence, became tennis's world number one the BBC website was flooded with English people congratulating him. Compare that with the abuse of Gerard Piqué.
10
It is a sad state of affairs indeed that this separatist elite should have turned Spain’s arguably most cosmopolitan region into a divided, acrimonious, provincial and in the future economically blighted region. Granted that the central government has never managed the PR of this evolving drama properly , contrary to the millions spent by the Generalitat , OC and the ANC, but Spain is a fully-functional, hard-won Democracy and this fact alone should be enough for honest media professionals to go and check their facts and decry this shameful and dishonest campaign as one of the biggest and potentially most dangerous scams ever.
11
I am an American living in Barcelona. It is good to see at least one article that is not wholly tied to political propaganda. Bottom line, whether you agree with the referendum or not, the fact remains that you have over 3 million people who are directly dissatisfied with how their central government performs and are conducting a series of peaceful democratic protests, (yes, an illegal vote falls under the umbrella of a peaceful protest) which are being met with a heavy hand and calls for "law and order". This dissatisfaction will not go away simply because the central government suspends regional autonomy, arrests regional leaders and/or calls for new votes. I agree with one of the other commentators, it is the 21st century, time for a better framework to address a people's desire for self determination. It is time to sit down and talk.
9
Yes, New York City next, please.
2
Catalonia/Barcelona presents a clear and present danger not only for Spain's unity but for the EU integration process. The outcomes for the self-declared independence referendum are abhorrent.
A peaceful secession will spark other independent movements in Spain and elsewhere in the EU.
Every European country has to deal with independent movements that date back to the Middle Ages.
The worst outcome would be a civil war similar to the end of Yugoslavia in the 90s.
Either outcome mentioned above could be the beginning of the end for the dream of a united and integrated Europa.
Catalonia impasse is, potentially, the spark that could lead to the EU's disintegration.
12
I love Barcelona! My favorite European city, whatever its politics.
5
The Brexit vote, also, only passed in a few large metropolitan areas, and by only older voters.
1
Though vexing to Spaniards and Catalonians, this movement and referendum are like an interesting puzzle, a breath of fresh air compared to the ugliness political discourse in the US enfolds. The violence that took place at the referendum was disturbing, but the Spanish government has the right to use means for keeping the nation intact; compare to what happened when the Confederacy tried to secede from the US Union in 1861 - same concept.
4
I have to say we in the UK had a referendum on the question of Scottish Independence, The correct and peaceable way to conduct this type of question.
6
Barcelona is prosperous for many reasons including a hard working citizenry, talented entrepreneurs, geography and a favorable position inside Spain and the EU. The city is a transportation juncture for Spain's trade with Europe. It is, as a manufacturer, largely oriented around a Spanish market. Many of its greatest economic achievements have been accomplished with cooperation with the rest of Spain. This was true when they participated in the Spanish empire in the 18th century. Later Catalan industrialists secured favorable tariff laws to protect the textile industry from British competition in the 19th century. This was done by the Congress in Madrid. Spain's consumers paid more, but it undoubtedly propelled the region towards an industrial future. Likewise, during the time of Franco, the Spanish government promoted Catalan industrialization as a transformative industry, automobiles, was located in Barcelona. The SEAT company was financed with capital from the Basque Country and Madrid and was a joint venture with FIAT, but it was a political decision at the height of Franco's central planning. One last example for American readers to consider would be the 1992 Olympics. The city, regional government and the Spanish government funded and executed a very successful transformation of the city. This led to the massive expansion of tourism that the city is inundated with today. Catalonia will not benefit by leaving Spain and the EU.
19
Barcelona is a FORMER global city, turned into a provincial little town by Catalan nationalists.
33
Catalonia was built on backs of cheap labor from Andalusia, Extremadura, Murcia and other regions. They and their children are called “charnegos” (xarnegos in Catalan). Franco set up lucrative plants and textile factories and the Catalans prospered from charnegos that account for about the same amount as “pure” Catalans.
Then Madrid chose Barcelona to be the Spanish candidate for the 1992 olympics. That gift gave the city the huge economic boom that rejuvenated the filthy beaches and decrepit area that is now Vila Olímpica.
Since joining the EU, Catalonia has received billions of euros for projects like building roads, subsidising researchers and protecting the environment.
The “indepes” have been brainwashed into thinking that they did it all on their own. Their passive-aggressive Goebbelsian campaign for independence has split the country in ways that are unimaginable. Families, co-workers, neighbors, and spouses are now enemies. Even voting blocks are being bring reshuffled.
The pressure has been really building since 2015 and what seems like a blink of an eye, a wonderful prosperous region has been turned upside down. The “silenced” majority who would dare speak a word of opposition for fear of verbal and physical retaliation in the form of cowardly property damage. They bit their tongues. And these separatists call themselves peaceful?
Don’t be fooled by this manipulative self destructive movement for independence. It’s toxic and has poisoned Catalonia.
102
David,
You need to learn the actual history of Barcelona.
Immigrants long have freely flocked to Barcelona because the opportunities -- including jobs and wages -- are much greater than elsewhere in Spain. This, despite Catalunya paying vastly more in taxes to Madrid than they receive back in much-needed investment or services.
Barcelona was prosperous long before Franco and, indeed, long before the marriage of Ferran and Elizabeth united it with the long-embattled, religiously dominated south. Barcelona's textile industry, in particular, was established long before Franco and if you believe Franco favored Catalunya, you really, really are clueless.
Spain had no other site remotely competitive with other world sites to host the 1992 Olympics and benefited enormously from Barcelona's success.
You are so misinformed and angry, it's odd you choose to live in Barcelona.
6
While negotiating at several of my customers in Cataluña, I would bite my tongue when they would tell me that they were paying for the 92 Olympics. At that time, it was common to hear taxi drivers say the same. I would tell myself, "sure, go ahead and think what you like but what it is you say, isn't the truth".
This is the kind of disingenuous propaganda that't been going on in Cataluna for way too long.
3
Barcelona would not be the great cosmopolitan city it is without Spain.
28
Uh, yeah, Chicago would be nothing without Indiana.
2
I have no sympathy for the racist and xenophobic feelings behind the Catalonian separatist movement.
35
Racist? Xenophobic? Catalan separatists are leftist and pro-refugee. Very different from far-right movements you see elsewhere in Europe. They’re not trying to “take back Catalonia for the Catalans”, they’re tired of being bullied by the central government every time they ask for a level of autonomy similar to what the Basque Country has.
14
I American but live between London and Barcelona. The Catalan independence movement is an immensely depressing spectacle.
Politicians on both sides are lamentably incompetent. Both view "negotiation" as "getting the other to agree to my point without ever conceding anything.
The independence movement waves the banner of democracy and "the view of the majority of Catalans" while fully aware that the hard-line separatists are a small minority and that the vast majority of moderates would be happy with a better financial arrangement.
The economic arguments for a vibrant independent Catalunya have been dynamited by the exodus of over 900 companies from Catalunya. Only a madman would press on with an independence movement in the face of this. I'm reminded of Keyne's comment about "When the facts change, I change my view. What do you do?" The separatists clearly don't.
Catalunya contributes more to the state than it receives. Yep... that's called progressive taxation.
Catalan identity was suppressed under Franco. Yep. Get on with it. That was 40 years ago. What is your priority - getting along and providing a better future for your children in a more harmonious society, or getting back at something someone did to your grandfather? Other countries seem to be able to move on. Catalan hardliners seem not to be.
A lot of segments of society - especially schools - have become politicized, in a way that is frankly appalling.
... First Brexit, now this.
60
As a neutral observer, I am sadden by the events that are transpiring is Catalonia and the rest of Spain. On one hand, if a people want to secede from a nation, it should be allowed to do so. This is the 20th century, not the 18th. The right of self-determination was well established after WWI to allow for the re-formation of Poland, Czechoslovakia, and other eastern European countries. On the other hand, the threshold for secession should be much higher than 50%. Otherwise, you just end up with another divided country. What if Barcelona decides to secede from Catalonia and form its own country? I do not agree with the vote not because it was "unconstitutional" but because it assumes that a 50% Yes votes gives Catalonia license to secede. It is helpful for the Catalans to look at the breakup of Czechoslovakia and use it as a model. If it wants to leave, it needs to persuade both an overwhelming majority of Catalans and a small majority of Spaniards. Yes, the threshold is high, but that's how democracy works for big decisions. Look at the Brits: they now have "Bregret." We don't want the Catalans to have "Catalamenta."
57
Please read up on history. the Slovaks and the Czechs created Czechoslovakia with the condition that they could separate at any time.
Ergo, your example does not apply as it is only some people in Cataluña who want Cataluña to secede from Spain.
2
Today we are all Catalans and have been since the October 1 referendum, when Spanish police in riot gear forcibly tried to stop people from voting and injured hundreds in the process.
The police even laid into people who wanted to vote to stay as part of Spain!
The actions of the Spanish police are just something that we don't understand in the US.
21
Oh yes we do: racially-motivated police brutality, just to begin with; neo-imperial wars on multiple fronts; and a hate-spewing president in the White House. I could go on, but I know we are the city on a hill, irradiating light, and the evil empires are always someone else's.
6
I am sorry, but: Americans do not understand it? Or you personally do not understand it?
Let's have a look at what JFK said:
"Americans are free, in short, to disagree with the law but not to disobey it. For in a government of laws and not of men, no man, however prominent or powerful, and no mob, however unruly or boisterous, is entitled to defy a court of law."
And didn't the US start a war because the South seeked independence, basing themselves on a supremacist vision of society?
I think Americans understand it, and they understand it very well. It's history is full of examples of how the law was enforced when a minority came to the conclusion that they were above the law and entitled to just simply ignore it.
Or are you saying that if a group of Californians, for example, took over public property, destroyed police material, harrassed their neighbors, broke the law, declared independence unilaterraly.. the police would just standby and look, ignoring a court's mandate?
Also, hundreds injured? Really? Hundreds? Like the woman with the broken fingers who later admitted that she lied? Where did you get this figure from?
15
Erm, I'm from the US and live between London and Barcelona. The police actions are trivial to understand.
Catalan government uses public buildings for a vote which - rightly or wrongly - goes against the Spanish constitution and is therefore illegal.
Government has a responsibility to say "Sorry, you can't have a referendum, and you certainly can't use public buildings for this purpose".
People go to vote and refuse to leave when a police officer directs them to.
Officers push, people push back. Pretty soon things descend into violence. There are plenty of photos of youths throwing rocks at cops too, but they get less press.
Please tell me how any of this would be different in the US.
Oh yeah.... half the people would be carrying guns.
24
I hate to say this, but the Catalan crisis is a poster example of why Spain has developed, over decades, a reputation of being a non reliable, chaotic partner. In "The Clash of Civilizations" Samuel P. Huntington said that Spain's leaders made a concerted effort to disassociate the country from the "civilization" it -Spain- had created -what Huntington called the "Latin civilization" of Central and South America- in favor of joining the European Union's. Well, it is one thing what Spain's leaders wanted, quite another what Spain seems to be. This kind of chaotic situation doesn't make anybody involved look good. The Catalans for obvious reasons: after having carefully cultivated for Barcelona and Catalonia the image of being a "global cosmopolitan city" and a "global cosmopolitan society" respectively, it turns out that large portions of their respective populations are more parochial than Spain's poorest regions. At the same time, the Spanish government has shown that it hasn't done such a great job transitioning the country from a dictatorship fixated with a glorious past to a modern liberal democracy. Spain is still Spain, after all, so it seems. The same forces that triggered the Spanish Civil War seem to have never abandoned the country. God help them, really.
10
With Trump in the White House and threatening to raise walls on the Mexican border, racially-motivated police brutality in the U.S., and neo-imperial wars on multiple fronts, we don't have any lessons to preach to the world about liberalism or democracy. To say nothing of the huge, popular support for extreme right-wing, xenophobic causes in France, Germany, Austria, Britain, even Holland and Denmark. At least no major party in Spain has blamed economic troubles on immigrants, foreigners, or international institutions, and immigration rates stand at 12% as they do here.
16
Can you imagine where Spain would be if every Spaniard rowed in the same direction? Bismarck was right, Spain has got to be the strongest country on earth.
1
You're right. For unknown reasons (even if it seems easy to blame it on Muslim influences) Castilian Kingdom has been mostly unfaithful to his agreements. Even Yuval Noah Harari uses its example in "Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind" to show the poor confidence that usually other countries show to Spain in commercial or political treaties because of its historical misbehaving in meeting their commitments.
4
Mr. Puigdemont would have positioned Catalonia better for independence had he applied any strategic foresight. He could have easily backed the central government into a corner by proposing a dual-vote plan that required 75% voter participation and a 75% secession vote on two votes 12 months apart (the percentages and timing could be negotiated). Spain, nor the EU, could argue that such a vote was not appropriate and that if such a result were accomplished that Catalonia should be denied independence. In the end, either way the will of the people would be heard and accepted.
1
El Gato, you forget that the Supreme Constitutional Court declared the referendum illegal precisely because it did not involve the rest of Spaniards who are all entitled to vote a referendum! Mr. Rajoy has no say insofar as allowing a referendum
5
For the same reason you assume all UK should have been called to poll for Scottish independence, is it?
4
No, you don't understand. According to the Spanish Constitution Spaniards have a right to vote on whether referendums to brake Spain are allowed. That would be referendum #1. If Spaniards voted yes to allowing referendums then the referendum would take place only in Catalonia. That would be referendum #2. Spanish constitution is more open and flexible to amendment in this regard than most constitutions where such an option doesn't even exist would never happen.
Yes, it's very nice that you had your referendum in Scotland. But our countries are very different and so are our histories and our constitutions. Our democracy is younger so excuse us if we need a bit more time to sort things out.
3
The Catalan president Mr. Puigdemont and the Spanish president Mr. Rajoy are too self-righteous and too entrenched so as to leave themselves no room for a political solution to this dangerous situation. I suggest that former US secretary of state and world-class negotiator James A. Baker III be rushed to Spain to bring Mr Puigdemont and Mr Rajoy to their senses. There's no time to lose.
8
On what grounds do Seccesionist Catalans deserve their own country?
Are the secessionist Catalans a majority in Cataluña? Hint: no
Was Cataluña ever a kingdom? Hint: no
Was Cataluña ever a separate country? Hint no
Are secessionist Catalans ethnically different? Hint: no
Is Cataluña oppressed today by the rest of Spain? Hint: no
Have the secessionist Catalans broken the laws of the Catalan parliament? Hint: yes
Have the secessionists Catalans broken the Spanish constitution? Hint: yes
Conclusion:
Secessionist Catalans have declared themselves the saviors of Cataluña. In order for them to sell their story, they've had to create fables. Among these are, that they, the secessionists are Cataluña and that they have the right to seek sovereignty because Spain, their created & imagined enemy robs them.
66
Writing "Cataluña" instead of Catalunya really does make a difference. Congrats mate.
4
Please don't say "hint" when you're not hinting, you're telling.
Starting with the eastern counties of the Frankish kingdom's Spanish march, ruled by the Counts of Barcelona, Catalans have had a long history of distinct political identity and autonomy.
What do you mean, that secessionist Catalans are not "ethnically different"? From whom? Non-secessionist Catalans? Castilians? "Spaniards"? It's an irrelevant point in any case.
I do not support the secession of Catalunya, but feel great sympathy nevertheless for the secessionists. Plainly a lot of their emotion has to do with preserving dignity; and so long as you experts in Madrid etc. continue to speak and act as bullies, you make it so much harder to persuade the secessionists that secession is not in their best interests.
4
Mr. González,
Where do you get your information?
"Are Catalan secessionists a majority?" We don't know, because the Spanish government refuses to organaize a referendum or cede the powers to do so to the Catalan govetnment, which is why the situation has come to what it is.
"Was Catalonia ever a self-governing kingdom?" It was a self-governing entity and possibly had one or the first democratic parliaments in modern times, in the 13th century. Where was the capital of the Kingdom of Aragon, and how was that name chosen?
"Is Catalonia repressed by the rest of Spain?" Yes. How many signatures did Rajoy and the PP get for their petition against the Catalan regional constituion in the early 2000s? Was a boycott called against Catalan products at that time, too? Has the Catalan education system been under fire since the 1990s, even though its students' results are the same or better than the average for Spain? How many people have been asked to leave cabs or have ended up missing flights because they spoke in Catalan in front of officials, and how many Spaniards have had the same experience for speakng Spanish in the same situations?
4
A country with the economic and cultural diversity of Spain should be organized as a federation. Its constitution should also acknowledge the fact that it harbors several nations. These measures would have been enough to stem the current crisis. However, this continues to be unacceptable to the Spanish nationalism that is the main ideology of the authoritarian regime in Madrid.
29
Harbors several nations? Care to explain? Spain has been 1 nation since 1469 and boy, was it great!
9
A nation can be inside a state.
2
Please note that the "authoritarian regime in Madrid" got a 8.30 grade in The Economist Democracy Index, somewhere between Britain (8.36) and France (7.92). Not bad for an authoritarian regime.
16
What if the current law oppresses citizens? What if the current government responds to all requests of a holding vote with bullets and truncheons? Isn't there a legitimate right to rebellion? If that weren't true, women would have never been able to vote.
7
Please explain how the current Spanish laws oppress its citizens? What specific laws are these? Surely you can demonstrate with actual cases.
You're suggestion that the government is going to respond with bullets and truncheons will be a civil war and surely, no one expects the secessionists to continue breaking the law or are the secessionists truly crazy?
20
Laws are changed in congress not by a mob.
Catalans can easily take their cause to Spain's legislative body.
But what laws currently oppress the Catalans? Please clarify.
7
Alex, your rebellion started first, the illegal referendum started first, not the other way around. The current law doesn't oppress citizens. You are the oppressor forcing your independence, your riots, your constant demonstrations and general strikes, your caos and your demagoguery on millions of people who don't want it.
Barcelona is a great city. I hope people won't be deterred to visit and do business there. As someone who goes there frequently, life is normal.
2
Spain has been crossed off my list of potential holiday places since the neo-fascist crushing of peaceful demonstrators in Catalonia. The same goes for Turkey, too : bookends of the Mediterranean.
4
@AE I also will not be doing business in the rest of Spain, for the same reasons. But if you care about the Catalan cause, you should continue to visit Catalonia.
2
Of course! There is nothing like a good nationalistic supremacist cause.
I really miss the 20th century. What ever happened to those nice and strong borders, along ethnic lines?
1
Mr. Kingsley: I am afraid your point of view is that of a romantic witness with a very light knowledge of a complex reality. I wonder if the US government would allow any US state to declare independence unilaterally against the US Constitution. Just remember that Catalonia has NEVER been an independent nation. Even before of been integral part of Spain since 500 years ago, it was part of the Aragon kingdom. There is no doubt the Spanish government has poorly dealt with the catalonian demands, but the law is the law, at least in every civilized democratic country, and the Catalonian government has broken the law
42
Broken laws are the origin of many reforms towards a more just system.
2
I'm afraid your missing the very part of it. It's not only the past we want to recover, but mostly we're heading for a better future that Spain can't offer us.
2
Broken laws when done by citizens is fine. When done by a government it is unacceptable. The citizens include non-separatists but their rights are seriously wounded when the government adopts the sectarian position, overthrows the law and ignores the court system. The Catalan government is deliberately fracturing the society, ruling for their portion of the population and playing a cat and mouse game to appear a helpless victim of Spanish oppression.
7
Among the successful aspects of the United States, in contrast to Europe, has been its insistence on linguistic assimilation. The United States is made of distinct ethnic groups united linguistically. Each group is able to keep, what I call its "folkloric aspects of culture" like food and holidays etc. , but they all must eventually adopt English. In contrast Spain, like many other nations of Europe, is made up of distinct linguistic nations, each conserving their historic languages and Cultures. Many are in a never ending vigilance of laws and politicians that they perceive try to disseminate them culturally. Many look upon new immigrants as Trojan horses, these generally preferring to assimilate into the larger nation instead of smaller cultural entities like Cataluña.
Canada had its difficulties with Quebec but it was able to solve its differences with intense negotiations. The United States will also have its difficulties when eventually confronted by a serious petition for statehood by Puerto Rico, whose main language is Spanish.
6
Yes, you are right. In the United States there are 57 million Spanish speaking people who have no right to an education in Spanish, to having their own parliament, their own education system, healthcare system and their own representatives.
Catalunya's dysfunctional government needs to hold elections. Pro-independence parties formerly on the margins formed a pact, creating a super party which won majority in parliament to push a separatist agenda. Now that they bullied their way in forming a fake alliance these characters formerly on the margins not only govern but speak for the majority of Catalunya who are against independence.
Puigdemont is a pawn in the separatist game. He dropped out of college and was a compromise choice when the marginal parties formed a pact. He admits his role is independence, independence, and independence letting healthcare, education, and the economy slide.
Rajoy has his hands tied for any use of force by Madrid will get real sloppy fast. It's frustrating for many living in Barcelona because the majority support a united Spain yet the separatists are the only ones whose voice is heard especially abroad. If things escalate, I hope anyway, that the silent majority will step up and let our voices be heard. I don’t see how anyone can legitimately argue for Catalunya as a nation. No one is against holding a democratic vote, but the pro-independence crowd act like voting is a golden ticket to freedom that or time for rhetoric to face reality.
65
It would be better if you stopped confusing the Times readership. I believe that having 72/135 elected congressmen/congresswomen in favor of independence is not marginal. "No one is against holding a democratic vote", well I honestly think nobody believes that anymore.
5
It is inadequate when it represents 48% of the voters and a qualified majority 90/135 is required to change the Catalan Statute of Autonomy. The reason the separatists are overrepresented in the Catalan Parlament is due to the electoral laws that favor the rural hinterland at the expense of more cosmopolitan Barcelona. The nationalists won't change the electoral law because they are the principal beneficiaries of the overweighting. Sound familiar to any US political practice?
7
If Catalogna achieves independence, the European Union must make an example of Catalogna and absolutely exclude it on every level. The EU must make clear that a Catalan application for membership will be considered several decades after Turkey becomes a member. Naturally, the euro currency will be withdrawn and strict border procedures implemented.
29
There is no way to prevent a hypothetically independent Catalonia from using the Euro as a currency. They would have no say in monetary policy nor access to the ECB but they could use it like Ecuador uses the US dollar.
4
Are you finished roaring? Ok, lets get to talks on how a pacific net contributor to EU can keep the hole thing working.
3
It would be wonderful to have the peseta used again in Catalunya!
no mention of the indoctrination of kids in schools starts at a very early age, they teach a history of catalonya and spain which is not real, they plant the seeds of hate to everything that is Spanish, so no wonder that by the time they reach voting age all they want is independence. the local TV3 is used for propaganda all the time everyday. The separatists movement has created this hate amongst catalonyans, if you are not with them you are single out as unpatriotic....so for many of us living here life is not so comfortable any more. It feels more like a dictatorship that a democracy were free thoughts are allowed.
The independent movement has split catalonyas, and has flooded them with lies about how life would be after independence, the reality is that banks ae leaving, multinational companies are all set to follow and over 500 companies have already left. What this government has done to reach this point is pretty much the same as Madiuro hasdone in Venezuela, not allowing the opposition to talk and clossing congress for the last months so evryday issues cannot be debated amongst the different parties that represent all catalonyans.
In acordance with existing laws and the constitution a "coup" took place by the declarration of independence. The central government has no option but to dissolve this government and have elections. You see in democracies laws hae to be followed, this government as not so they will pay the price. Hopefully without violence.
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It would take me less than 2 minutes to prove false every single one of your arguments, but why even bother? It is boring to argue when you are confronted with total propaganda.
10
No true ! TV3 is not the most viewed Tv in catalonia, Spanish is! On TV3 debates there are allways speakers from both sides, on Spanish TV we allwys see debates between unionists, and since years ago telling lies about our convivence. Catalan schools have been a place of integration of new comers to catalonia, and in all this years NO parents had complained about thir kids beeing adoctinated, and asked for having even more clases in Spanish. Spanish is the most talked language in schools among students! come and see with you eyes. this is a matter of consevadurism and progressism !
3
Ales, Do tell us in 2 minutes how Foyorama's arguments are false
3
An exercise in identitarianism: not a word about the economic factors, which of course will turn out to be primordial. In Catalonia for 5 years now only the pros of independence have been aired fully and freely. Now the cons are becoming fully evident: nearly a 1000 companies have moved headquarters to other parts of Spain and anyone who knows the first thing about business (or remembers the Montreal effect) knows that that's just the beginning, and that it has a multiplier effect. The fact is that Catalonia, and signally Barcelona, depend overwhelmingly on privileged access to the Spanish market; it's for that reason that so many multinationals decided to establish themselves there. For 20 years Barcelona has been losing ground to Madrid as the leading economic (even industrial) center in Spain. This will only accelerate that process. No matter what comes of this issue, and with Catalonians themselves deeply divided, Barcelona has been dealt a serious blow economically and the bleeding will continue indefinitely. Why is the econonic dimension of this issue (particularly sensitive for Barcelona) being ignored by the NYT's coverage?
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" For 20 years Barcelona has been losing ground to Madrid as the leading economic (even industrial) center in Spain."
Where do you come up with this?
2
Perhaps the Catalonians are not craven materialists like you. There is the consideration of the Madrid neo-Falangists seeking inspiration from the Reconquista in the wake of the long wave of Islamist terror attacks inducing those in power to become even more Catholic than the pope. The Catalonians are not as pious and grim as the electorate in Castile and La Mancha, they favour free-thinking secularism keeping more in step with much of Western Europe today.
4
Enric Juliana, the "director adjunto" of the Catalonian newspaper, La Vanguardia (the newspaper closest to the leading party in the governing coalition), in a book entitled España en el diván (RBA Actualidad, 2014, in a chapter entitled "Auge y dominio del Gran Madrid". In any case, the evidence is widely available: virtually all of the major Spanish multinationals have their headquarters there (banks, utilities, telecommunications). Getafe (Madrid industrial suburb) has been the primary hub (with Seville) of the Spanish aerospace and avionics industry for decades (hence Spain's participation in AIRBUS, with French, German, and British companies). The list goes on. I cite Juliana only because he's Catalonian, a fine journalist, by no means a Spanish nationalist, and has lived in and reported from Madrid as well as Barcelona for years now.
7
More important than the urban/rural distinction is the left/right distinction, which explains, through electoral politics, the stunning growth of the independence movement from polling in the low teens as recently as 2009 to 50% now. The Spanish and Catalan left parties are very similar, and often run aligned. Nationalist parties on either side are completely different: in Spain the right has origins, roots and inspiration in the Franco dictatorship, while the Catalan right is socially liberal, and was shaped by oposition to the Francoist suppression of catalan culture. The right has traditionally been strong in smaller cities and the countryside, while the left dominates urban and immigration centers, like everywhere. The Spanish right of PM Rajoy discovered that antagonizing the Catalan "fat cats" played well to their base in more conservative Spain, and this is how they won their first election under Rajoy. It continues to work for them now (not unlike Trump using division against minorities to exploit the white vote) On the other side, the Catalan rightists and centrists saw a winning strategy in lining up behind independence. These twin opposed electoral strategies are the critical division; and the bad news is that they continue to work, for both sides. Only a miracle can now produce leftist governments on both sides that would immediately solve the problem, as they did in 2006.
5
Years before Trump, Catalonian separatists had the book on antagonism. As anyone who has been to Catalonia knows, its parroquial businesses discovered that it was good for their bottom line to antagonize customers who spoke to them in Spanish, especially those with Castillian accent. I guess it was time to get the other end of the stick for separatists Catalans.
4
Years before Trump, Catalonians had the book on antagonism. Anyone who has visited Catalonia knows that its parroquial businesses practice antagonizing customers who speak to them in Spanish, especially those with a Castillian accent. Not nice, but good for their bottom line.
Take a longer view. The Catalan bourgeoisie largely supported Franco and benefitted during his long rule. The rural strongholds of separatism today were often very much opposed to the Second Republic and the anticlericalism that came from Barcelona. Carles Puidgemont's grandfather for example. Lluis Llach's grandparents for example. It is not surprising that when democracy returned to Spain in the late 1970s that many Francoist mayors joined the Convergence Party of Jordi Pujol (today's PDCat) as the practice of clientalism just continued under a new banner. Rajoy came to power in the depths of the crisis not because of anti-Catalan politics. For Artur Mas the crisis has served as a way to scapegoat Spain and avoid responsibility for the dire circumstance. Does anyone, except a diehard separatist, believe that austerity would not have been imposed in Catalonia had they been an independent country? Fairy tale economics.
4
This is indeed a very good insight into present Catalonia and particularly into Barcelona. The main feature in that situation (aptly reported here), is complexity. Identities are plural, often embedded from local to national to global scales, and they are moving identities. I would underline the fact that the pro-independence authorities (“Govern”) who organized the referendum (so harshly fought against by Madrid), established that ANY person who is inscribed in the ordinary, official voters' census would be recognized the right to vote. People from all geographic and/or ethnic backgrounds had equal right to vote. This openness is very remarkable, given the known fact (as reported in the piece) that among the people who were born in Spain, but outside Catalonia are in favor of independence by a 12%; those whose parents were born Spanish outside Catalonia, would be ca. 24% to vote independence; remarkably enough, those Spanish nationals born outside Spain with alien background, amount to about 29% and so on. Inclusiveness is clearly a heavy risk, if the result of a referendum is to count. But it shows the way forward, and the bet: if not now, in ten years – maybe twenty - these people will have turned to be Catalonians… as Catalonians as those born from Catalonian parents and grand-parents…
23
To allow every person in Catalonia to vote in this illegal referendum regardless of Nationality was very generous indeed. However as a Spaniard who has lived in Catalonia, owns property there and has family born there I was not allowed to vote. As a citizen of Spain I have a right to decide if Spain can be broken into smaller states or if my country should be a Federation, etc. That right was taken away from me on October 1st. An amendment to the Spanish Constitution might be needed but all Spaniards have a right to vote on an issue of historical proportions. Not just current residents of Catalonia.
1
I live there. You are mistaken.
3
If Catalonia has a case for secession, then many US states have an even stronger one.
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Absolutely not. I would recommend you to read -good- history books.
4
A quick pick to a history book will easily dismantle your point.
4
You provide no basis for your proclamation. Indeed in the context of the International law view of secession Catalonia is much closer to the test than any US state at this time. Though I give you First Nations may have a much stronger case for complete secession from the US. And even if your statement is true why does that disentitle Catalonia from independence? Perhaps the US would be better off in many ways if certain parts seceded - and perhaps seceded parts would be better off overall as well. There is no reason that political entities have to remain immutable for all time. Indeed history would show us there has been many changes to the political configuration of the areas of the world over the years. There is no moral reason to maintain a political entity based solely on the political entity. In the US the conflation of ending slavery and maintaining the Union as the impulses for a civil war have imbued the maintenance of the Union itself with a moral aspect that is not now appropriate. Try looking, with a cold eye, at your own earlier Rebellion for another way to look at Catalonia.
1
Spain has shown the primitivism of its reasoning - to have the Central Government in Madrid showing incapacity in mature reasoning with provincial powers, this case Barcelona, but quickly threatening imprisonment of local leaders resembles the year 1500 when the world was flat but in the center of it all and Protestant Religion would get you burned alive.
The EU in Brussels has more than the UK to tangle with - but rather sticks its head in the sand (as usual).
12
Spain is, according to the UN, the country in the world that has most changed from a socio-economic point of view in the last fourty years. Please stop playing to perpetuate your cultural and ethnic stereotypes based on a few ideas you grasp while reading the newspaper.
3
Walk down Las Ramblas and you feel an energy that is absent elsewhere in Spain. Barcelona is not as "laid back" and doesn't cling to old traditions like the rest of Spain. Love them both, but they are vastly different.
10
I disagree. I’ve lived in both Madrid and Barcelona and love them both but Madrid’s 24 hour vibe, cosmopolitanism, and dynamism run circles around Barcelona’s—not to mention its art collections, theater, dance etc. The Ramblas are a tourist trap—the least Catalan place in Barcelona.
30
Las Ramblas is the Barcelona equivalent of Times Square, so I'm not sure if we can draw too many conclusion about the city or its culture from that area.
10
Absolutely right.
That's comes from far away. Already in Middle Age, Spanish King 's word was law, while Catalan Kings (mostly Catalan Earls) had to deal with Catalan Representatives in order to get what they wanted.
It's like oil and water. Impossible to mix. In peaceful times (usually when left-wing side Spanish parties rule Spain), we can go on well more or less. In agressive times (usually when right-wing side Spanish parties rule Spain), we can not stand each other.
1
I'm sorry. This is a bit of a stretch: "people have always mobilized here for peace, for dialogue and for human rights". This is a movement of wealthy people trying to become more wealthy sprinkled with anti-system groups who try to destroy capitalism.
The control the Catalonia local government has over the region is far grater than the responsibilities of a normal State in the US federation.
36
It's false.
And it's easy to show you that it is false.
If is "a wealthy people trying to become more wealthy" why on earth has the support of ERC, left-wing party, and CUP, far left-wing party ?
If the "control of Catalan local government is so strong," why the Spanish Constitutional Court interferes so often and so harsh in our local matters?
4
Please, get your facts right before typing. The interference of the Spanish government in the decisions of the Catalan parliament has originated most of the independentist movement growth.
4
Reading a bit more about what is happening in Catalonia won't hurt you, in fact you will see that US states have a lot more authority than the Catalan government. Oh, and it is a human rights issue, as we have returned to Francoist Spain where political opponents were put in jail.
4