Now will Spain do as Abraham Lincoln did to oppose secession and send invading armies into Catalonian homes?
Puigdemont used the classic trick that both Gandhi and the color revolutions used and that works time and again: seducing people to some kind of civil disobedience and then using the reaction of the government to polarize the people and demonize the government.
Rajoy fell for this trick - as many leaders would. Let's hope that he learns from the resulting mess.
5
This is really sad, it is terrible the feeling of injustice I see around . I miss a prestigous media like NYT, informs about the rights of the silent majority in Catalonia which is fearful of talking and demonstrating. Did you know that the support of nationalists is lower than constitutionalists in number of votes. Have you seen the images of the police being insulted, harassed and battered by fanatics? Is that the Catalonia the international community wants, an ultra left-wing republic governed by anti-system and populista radicals?
4
The EU should appoint former president of the European Council Herman Van Rompuy to mediate. He has a great reputation in all of the EU, has an excellent track record in diplomacy and spent most of his political career in Flanders, a region which has also been pushing for more autonomy.
1
The EU must not lend legitimacy to a minority political independence movement which has demonstrated its disrespect for legal political representation. No pasaran!
2
Nationalism is on the rise!
More power to the Catalonians. We are NOT all the same. There are very real differences between peoples of the world.
1
one wonders if the Catalans understand that a future free of Spain is a future outside the EU. Indeed we have seen a Catalan brexit.
2
Spain is a nation of law as are ostensibly the other western democracies. There is no internationally codified legal path to independence below the nation state. It is either legally provided for within a state or it isn't. Independence movements then must vy for internal and external political support in order to bring the national power to the negotiating table. Usually that involves egregious national oppression of minorities.
Unfortunately the Catalan nationalist movement has little going for it but its ethnic nationalist sentiment. That will not and should not attract support. Far from being oppressed, Catalonia is wealthy and has very large autonomy. Cries of Franquist oppression are simply obscene propaganda aimed at the naive.
Catalonia held a nonbinding independence referendum in 2014 and it was lost. This referendum was voted as binding by Catalonia's parliament, which is illegal under the constitution. The Catalonian parliament intended and continues to declare its intention on the basis of an illegal, and now farcically flawed referendum, in every perspective.
Unfortunately that will result in jailed leaders and perhaps might even spur support for independence and civil strife. All of it will be Puigdement's responsibility whether his partisans or you agree with that assessment.
Repugnant power hungry unrepresentative puerile thug are all accurate descriptions.
6
Spain used to be a major world power centuries ago, but lost the colonies and did not make the best use of the benefits. Spain wasted the plundered gold and silver from Americas, unlike other colonial powers like Great Britain or France who remained Great Powers and are still big economies! Why? To put it simply, Madrid is so burdened with a strange mixture of inferiority and superiority complexes that pushes the Castillians towards irrational political decisions, such as the latest use of brutal force against old women! Catalonia is lost for Spain and is just a prelude of the future of Europe in 30 years ahead : a fragmented Europe of Megapolis cities!
3
We often hear that Europe acted poorly in creating the maps of the Middle East and Africa, failing to take into account the ethnic and linguistic realities of the areas.
Guess where they got the idea that this was the right way to do things!
The creation of Spain, Great Britain, France, Germany, and other European countries was equally erratic, dictatorial and disrespectful of ethnic identities.
The existence of a European Union and the institutions of democracy have encouraged oppressed minority ethnic and linguistic groups to demand their rights.
More power to them.
2
I love Spain, its culture, its music, its people, everything about it. I am sadden about the recent news. Without a deep understanding of the situation, I hope the majority does not allow a small group of opportunists to dictate their future. I am sure there are real grievances but I wish they find a way to resolve their differences peacefully and harmoniously.
2
All of this fierce nationalism is a bad sign.
12
Without a direct connection or deep knowledge of the complete picture, I am trying to piece together some idea of the various positions, from articles and from the more measured comments here with various opinions. One thought keeps coming to mind...many people who comment saying they are not wholly committed to separatism consistently bring up a feeling that the separatists had gotten to the point that they just weren't being "listened to" by the powers in Madrid; that perhaps Madrid felt this was just another in a long series of noisy but fruitless protest by a minority of Catalans. Perhaps Madrid, and perhaps separatists, both overplayed their hands by actually "underplaying" them - obstinate refusal by Madrid to listen to what may be very relevant concerns for Catalans; and obstinate insistence by some separatists on extreme action rather than presenting a clear but forceful moderate plan for autonomy. I do not know at all if any of these projections fit anything, being an outsider; but I do feel there is an age-old thread here, of no-one in positions of power and/or influence wanting to listen to others anymore, to invest in useful and productive dialogue. Or maybe that has been tried, to the point of collapse, where only extreme action can eventually swing the pendulum back to some center position. I hope the thoughtful engagement in comments threads can continue, to provide insight for many of us.
3
The haughty and intolerant government in, of, by and for Castile has shown its true colors, with Catalan citizens of the European Union beaten with truncheons, their mayors incarcerated, their liberties denied by force of arms.
To those who wrote to proclaim the similarities between Catalonia and Spain, the need to avoid "postage-stamp" sized countries, your puerile arguments are easily refuted. Catalonia is comparable in size and population to Belgium, Austria, Switzerland... is anybody today calling for the 'anschluss' of Austria and Germany?
After Castile and Aragon conquered Catalonia in the 1700s, Franco conquered it again in the 20th Century. Does anybody remember who forced Austria into union with Germany in that century? What are the differences between Franco and Rajoy today?
Dan Kravitz
4
Two Catalans drafted the Spanish Constitution of 1978, which was approved in plebiscite by ~90% of Catalans. That Constitution - and the last forty years of Spanish history - put quite a bit of distance between Franco's authoritarianism and the modern political landscape. The 'Jackboots' of the Spanish state aren't as heavy as you make out...
And what else could Madrid have done? What responsible government would be complicit in its own demise? Catalonia's regional government was blatantly violating the Constitution of 1978 and TWO Constitutional Court rulings. Even a liberal-democratic state has a right to defend itself and enforce its laws - that's why JFK could send National Guard troops into Birmingham to enforce Supreme Court orders, and why Madrid could send Civil Guard troops into Barcelona to stop this illegal referendum.
5
Democracy is about so much more than 'majority rules'. Its about process, the integrity of democratic institutions, and the Rule of Law.
Two Catalans drafted the Spanish Constitution of 1978, which over 90% of Catalans approved in plebiscite. That Constitution declares in Sec. 2 the indissoluble nature of the Spanish State. The same section grants the right to regional autonomy, and under Catalonia's autonomy statute the requirement for Constitutional changes to the regional government is a 2/3 majority.
Catalonia blatantly violated two Constitutional Court rulings, as well as its own autonomy statute, in producing this referendum. Its Orwellian that they call this blatantly illegal farce a democratic expression of the people's right to self-determination. Call it what it is: Parochialism! A tribal minority arrogated the right to determine the future of the Spanish Constitution and the Spanish state, disenfranchising the vast majority of Spaniards.
10
Spanish Constitution was approved by people who are now over 58, and in very special circumstances. At that time it allowed Spaniards to have something better that what they had before (which was not so difficult, by the way), but it is clearly very insufficient in many respects. Whatever Catalans voted in 1978 is no longer relevant to the actual situation. And let me remind you that the Boston Tea Party was also a break of the law. I'm sure that many British saw it as an act of parochialism, too.
One more example of the "miniaturizing" of politics in the West. First came Religion. Next came class. Gender, race, age, sexual preference, and ad infinitum. All because children find it easier to bond by natural and simplistic qualities rather than listening to their teachers who are schooled in political science and philosophy. And according to liberals, cerebral research suggests that human brains are not fully developed by the mid 20's so how is this surprising. How about a new standard for voting age? The 21 standard was commonly adopted when the European life span was in the 40's, and so about 50% of the population were considered adult. Western life spans are now in the 80's. So what better way to restore balance and reason to Western politics than to restore the voting age to 50% of the life span. Generously applied, that would result in fools under 40 being struck from voter rolls. Think about it. Westerners under 40 would get back to going to class, looking for work, figuring out how to maintain a relationship, finding out what their kids were ingesting (hopefully vitamins) and why their bodies were swelling. Like I said, think about it.
2
Some European countries like Austria have introduced a voting age of 16 some years ago. Since that time there have been several attempts mostly by far right parties to revoke this law, because statistics show that the young people mostly voted liberal and center to left parties all over Europe with a clear pro EU attitude than far right parties. That Austria did not get a far right president (who has more or less only representative tasks, not comparable with the US-President) about 6 month ago is an earning of the women and the young voters. I know some Catalonians, all in their twenties, a no one of them is pro independence. Most young Europeans are against "miniaturizing" of politics, as you called it, and are clearly pro EU and against nationalism. My two cousins are 16 and 14, the older one voted this year for his first time, and both of them are interested in politics and have a clear opinion. It is more interesting and more productive to discuss with them about politics than with a lot of people who are 35 or above.
1
If "fools under 40" were no longer allowed to vote, Liberals would be a tiny minority of the voting bloc. Maybe you're on to something!
1
The international community would do well to establish hard and fast rules for regions, peoples, states and constituent republics that wish to exercise their “democratic” right independence. This would prevent much strife and inequality. Perhaps this is dreaming of Utopia. See my comments in “The Whack-A-Mole Independence Game”
http://deyanbrashich.com/home/2017/10/2/the-whack-a-mole-independence-ga...
1
Spanish government response to the vote was so breathtakingly stupid, so typical of corporation and government reactions to crises. If the election was "illegal", then there *was* no election. The government didn't have to do *anything." They should have just acted like nothing was happening because legally, if that's correct, nothing was.
Instead they turn out hundreds of heavily armed, masked special forces to make an unholy mess of things. By doing so they have called attention to something that could have been passed off as a non-event. It wasn't, of course, but now the whole world knows about it and is - I'm guessing - overwhelmingly sympathetic with the Catalans. It can't help but galvanize opinion in Catalonia. This is something the Spanish people will never forget, and for the Catalans, never forgive.
6
Very naive take on independence movements, and with little regard to history in this case.
Spain is a nation of law as are ostensibly the other western democracies. There is no internationally codified legal path to independence below the nation state. It is either legally provided for within a state or it isn't. Independence movements then must vy for internal and external political support in order to bring the national power to the negotiating table. Usually that involves egregious national oppression of minorities.
Unfortunately the Catalan nationalist movement has little going for it but its ethnic nationalist sentiment. That will not and should not attract support. Far from being oppressed, Catalonia has very large autonomy. Cries of Franquist oppression are simply obscene propaganda aimed at the naive.
Catalonia held a nonbinding independence referendum in 2014 and it was lost. This referendum was voted as binding by Catalonia's parliament, which is illegal under the constitution. The Catalonian parliament intended and continues to declare its intention on the basis of an illegal, and now farcically flawed referendum, in every perspective.
Unfortunately that will result in jailed leaders and perhaps might even spur support for independence and civil strife. All of it will be Puigdement's responsibility whether his partisans or you agree with that assessment.
Repugnant power hungry unrepresentative puerile thug are all accurate descriptions.
4
The New York Times should also explain how the Catalan population got to this place (despite the majority of them having Spanish relatives). Textbook nacionalism, years of school indoctrinacion and catalan public television solely devoted to the nacionalist propaganda have made their job.
Not to mention the constant crushing of the language rights of those who speak Spanish. Just to mention one, In Catalonia you can not open a shop with its name in Spanish. You will get a significant fine if you do so (it is fine if you use any other language).
There is a tragedy in the making here people that used to be friends do not talk, families cannot meet to avoid confrontation. Spanish feeling Catalans are planning to leave in mass they feel the hate against them and fear their children being drag into this.
The icing on the cake that the nacionalist needed to infuse even more hate into the population was the very badly handled crisis by president Rajoy. Throwing the Police and its violence to the population was certenly not the solution. So now what is next? hopefully history does not repeat itself and we do not have another nacionalism trigered bloodshed episode in Europe.
7
A turnout of less than 50% is a total failure and actually does more damage to the cause than any good. The Catalan leaders incompetently made their situation worse by holding an illegal election in an amateurish way that muted turnout, raised questions about the accuracy of the vote and alienated the potential support of foreign governments. The Catalans deserve better leadership.
6
"The Catalan leaders incompetently made their situation worse by holding an illegal election in an amateurish way that muted turnout"
Excuse me? Madrid made clear it forbade the election from taking place (evidently fearing the outcome would validate claims to independence), and tried to suppress the vote by trying to shut down polling stations, confiscate ballot boxes, and block people from entering aforementioned polling stations. The "amateurish way" the vote finally managed to be held was a direct consequence of Spanish state intervention; and the fact it could be held at all is a testament to how motivated people were on the Catalan side to get their point across.
2
There are lots of good legal and economic arguments against independence.
And in fact, Catalonians are deeply divided.
However, the fact remains that either Catalonians have their say, or Catalonia because an occupied Spanish territory...like it was during the Franco dictatorship.
The British government allowed the Scots their say. This is one of the few time in memory that the British government has done anything right.
But of course you don't get to impose your policy views on every Spaniard without making allies and winning majorities. The Catalan separatists are trying to change the "demos" in democracy, saying the rules are only what we say they are. The lawful exercise of democracy is a complicated set of norms and rules that includes right of individuals, minorities and rule of law.
6
I absolutely disagree with this kind of force used on civilians. Nevertheless, the New York Times should also explain also how Catalan population got to this place. The majority of the people you see in the street demonstrations and trying to cast their votes have Spanish relatives q
1
Their are only two parties to this debate and decision. Both participate in a modern democracy with a legitimate constitution. They are Spain and Catalonia. In other words, it’s none of our business.
2
In law, yes, but independence movements are forged quite literally outside the law. There is no internationally codified means to gain independence, so movements rely on internal and international support to bring national governments to negotiations. That usually entails strife and national oppression of minorities.
The Catalan nationalist movement is repulsive because not only is it not oppressed, it wealthy, has a high degree of autonomy yet is oppressive to all non ethnic Catalans in return. Now it demonstrates it will not even play lip service to democratic rule of law to gain power. The accurate comparison to Franco is thus Puigdemont, not Rajoy.
This movement does not deserve my support.
5
Just as with the Scottish referendum, I see a bunch of smug (and usually poorly-informed) foreigners are quite ready to make grand pronouncements about the validity of Catalan national aspirations. It's as though it's really THEIR opinions that should matter. Whether a good idea or not, it is ultimately for the residents of Catalonia to decide. Their national aspirations and identity certainly should not be sneered at by people who don't seem to even know where Catalonia is.
10
oh yeah, but wait, since Cataluna is not autonomous and it does not have the authority to pronounce a legal vote on the matter so I guess it doesnt matter what catalans decide to do because at the end of the day Madrid will still be callin the shots now wont it?
1
Is it possible we are responding to separatists' request for international support, finding the justification wanting, we give the wrong answer?
1
A concept totally lost on Liberal Northeasterners, and Bostonians in particular. The very heart of modern day conservatism. This is what we are trying to conserve:
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America
When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
2
Quebec demanded independence from Canada for decades. Powers were devolved (from the federal government to the provincial government), Quebec 'uniqueness' was recognized in various ways. Independence is increasingly a fringe movement. Independence for Scotland has been on the same path. How does Spain's approach to Catalonia compare? Hopefully the central government has more to offer than confrontation - there are enough examples to benefit from.
6
Spain devolved power to Catalonia long ago. They have even more autonomy than Quebec in Canada and are about on par with Scotland. Until recently, the independence movement for Catalonia has been a movement that had support closer to 30% rather than 50% of the population, but lately clueless actions by the Rajoy government and increasingly irresponsible action by Catalan nationalist politicians and media have aggravated the situation significantly.
4
They should be given the right for Independence.
8
Under the UN Decl Human Rights and rule 1 #1 of the Covenant on Political Rights, a sovereignty vote is never illegal, and there is an absolute prohibition on using violence to try to stop such a vote. Obviously, a nation can make the hurdle to accept a plebiscite for secession very high; that is how to avoid a mercurial will of the moment. So, Rajoy, the judge, and participating military or police involved in the violence should be jailed. The vote should be held again. Spain may demand 2/3 of eligible voters, etc. to accept the result. Catalonia could not meet that test yesterday. Due to Franco-like stupidity, they may get a different answer tomorrow.
7
If a referendum is organised by a small faction of the population who is not willing to incorporate the general local opinion in the polls' results, is it a legitimate referendum? Puigdemont, the Catalonian president, did not come to office through democratic vote. I did not vote for the current Spanish government nor do I condone their behaviour, but trust me when I tell you that "a people" that has not come to terms with its identity is not mature yet to become independent. The quiet Catalonians are more than half the population and have been so dismayed and frightened by the attitude of the Independentistas that even refused to show up for the referendum. I truly believe they have a right to a legal, well designed referendum, but this was a hoax and was declared illegal. Forcing independence is considered treason in almost every nation. A democracy must protect itself through the rule of law. The police were enforcing the law in order to protect the interest of the silent Spanish citizens in Catalonia. Their response was as irresponsible as the provocation from the Independentistas. Nobody wants a civil war, look at the Balkans or the Ukraine. It is never a simple matter when the population is heavily divided. A more honest dialogue should ensue.
11
Susana, trust me if I tell you that the referendum was made for counting how many people wants the independence and how many people don't. If there are so many "quiet and frightened catalonians" and "independentistas" are only a "small facion" why have your government used the violence against this small faction?
5
I have checked almost every video online on the actions of the police. The police NEVER attacked without direct provocation, like being constantly pushed, shoved, defied, isolated and insulted. Just like they have been today, being thrown out of their hotels. You must understand that the government has read this as a Coup d'Etat, a rebellion and an uprising where citizens where not simply occupying the streets, but government owned buildings. I would resist the entrance of anyone to my house should I need to. The solution should have been political from the start, beginning with the Catalonian Govern, who have decided on the worst way possible path to acquire independence. The should have properly campaigned and waited for the next legal elections. There is a legal way to vote this. Don't be fooled.
4
Spain needs to explain its justification for denying the Catalans any right to self-determination. Their stance, and that of the supposedly supra-national EU, puts the lie to any claim that nationalism is a thing of the past. Having supported the Palestinian cause, a non-indigenous group that exists only to deprive the rights of the Jewish people that were codified in international law through the Mandate for Palestine (which reserved 1% of the lands the British liberated from Ottoman control in 1918 as the national homeland of the Jews, though it was quickly reduced by 3/4s to further appease the Arabs giving Arabs control of 99.75% today), it is not clear what Spain might actually argue. I suppose sending in the police and brutalizing voters while threatening the province is Spain's answer. Yet another instance of "do as I say, not as I do."
5
Most of the police attack were fakes. The Spanish democracy has try to fight against a secessionist movement that tries to create a new and isolated state on an ethnic basis. This is populism, para fascism. The autonomous police didn't make its work, and a mass of people occupied schools and hospitals, the usual places to vote, from Friday night. If the regional police had collaborate with the courts, nothing has passed, but the National Police had to defend the law against a farce, a fake vote, a coven. The protesters were actors, seeking a photo, making a TV performance, not peaceful voters.
5
You forget to say that the earth is abolutely flat and that americans have never reached the moon.
Ethnic basis in a region where more than a half of its population has an immigrant origin is hard to believe... in the last 15 years more than a milion and a half immigrants has found a home in Catalonia, they were from Morocco, Ecuador, China, Pakistan, etc.
3
This vote means absolutely nothing and Catalans are naive to believe a vote grants independence. The real question is are the Catalans willing to die for independence. Unless both parties mutually agree to independence, there is a high risk of bloodshed and death. Independence may sound like a panacea but alas there may be serious consequences. Seems to me the Confederate States of America voted for Independence and we all know how that ended.
11
Actually, the Confederate states had voluntarily joined an indissoluble union which they then tried to leave. The Catalans didn't voluntarily join anything.
In any event, the Civil War took place over 150 years ago and things have changed. It is far from clear that if, say, Texas now sought to secede, bloodshed would follow.
The U.K. allowed Scotland to have a referendum on independence. There was no bloodshed nor unprovoked attacks by police with truncheons and rubber bullets on voters. The vote proceeded peacefully and, in the end, independence was rejected.
The straightforward question Spain needs to ask itself is why it doesn't allow Catalonia the same consideration.
10
The Catalan voters (90+%) approved the Spanish Constitution in 1978. The Constitution makes plain that sovereignty resides in the whole of the Spanish people. This is the culmination of 200 years of struggle in Spanish history that goes back to the Cortes of Cadiz. Catalans were active participants in writing both Constitutions.
6
Charlie, I have been to Spain many times and love Catalonia but one must recognize the risk in unilateral action like independence. People voluntarily join indissoluble unions all the time (like a marriage) and then separate so don’t put too much credence into a perpetual union. Something is perpetual until one party (or group) wants to change it.
3
This referendum was foolish. Catalonia will end up under central control of Madrid for decades because of this foolishness. Grandchildren of today's 20-somethings will ask why they acted so foolishly to gain so little. You want independence, Catalans? Really? You want FC Barcelona to play local league games and be banned from UEFA Champs League and La Liga. You want to spend 20 years negotiating trade deals? You want to assume massive debts and the taxes to pay them off? No one thinks these things through. Just wave around a flag and shout.
9
States primarily based on ethnicity invariably end up repressing anyone not of that ethnicity.
8
It is hard to believe that the Catalans are touting this election as fair and binding when there were consistent and noticeable voting irregularities all over Catalonia.
10
This “referendum” was tainted by so many instances of fraud and manipulation that it was nothing but a sick farce. Aside from the fact that the “no” supporters didn’t show up to vote to protest against this illegal and fraudulent referendum, the situation in those improvised polling stations were a farce: nonexistent electoral rolls, no ID checks, people voting several times at different polling places, opaque ballot boxes that arrived pre-stuffed at the polling stations, all of these things were witnessed and filmed on video by observers. There are almost 8 million people living in Catalonia, and they only have 2.2 million ballots to show for their efforts ? That leaves a little less than 2 millions voters (90% of 2.2 million) affirmatively voting for independence. 2 million out of 9 million residents ? What a sick joke.
Americans should know that all the public-opinion polls taken in Catalonia in the last few weeks all showed about 49% against, 41% for independence. It is public knowledge that anti-independence supporters in Catalonia have been constantly bullied and terrorized by pro-independence thugs for months, even years: they are spat upon or slapped in the streets, shopkeepers refuse to serve them, schoolchildren are massively bullied by pro-independence children, etc. This means that anti-independence supporters have been terrorized and cowed into silence, and this is why they all protested by not showing up to vote.
11
Parigino, I cannot understand you line of argument but first the numbers. The population of Catalonia is 7.4 million (not 8, not 9), 5,4 million could vote, 3 milion tried to do it, 700.000 couldn't do it beacause of police violence. If most of the population is against independence why you don't accept to vote?
I live in Mollet del Valles, where most of the people don't support independence. There are other cities that it happens the opposite. I have been fights in my former workplace but the reason was soccer, not politics. What you explain about spits, children bullied and terrorized is false. You know it but it's easy to say anything using a nickname. You think you are right? Prove it.
6
All this has been in the Spanish newspapers for years. Papers that are respected worlwide, such as “El País” and “El Mundo.”
3
Xavier from Mollet del Valles, a referendum can be made but according to our laws and constitution, base for the convivence of 47millions of spanish souls. Explain this to Puigdemont and rest of catalan goverment, is very easy to understand for any citizen of a modern democratical european region. Concerning problems for non-independentist catalans in cataluña I peronally know hundreds of cases, I cannot demonstrate bere as you demand but I invite you and all our NYT friends to hear every day the claims of half of the catalan parlament, representing half of the catalan citizens.. you can find on youtube searching by Ines Arrimadas for example, one of the leaders on tbe opposition.
2
The Constitution and rule of law is what separates mankind from the savages. Catalonian "leaders" chose to ignore court orders and the Spanish Constitution as a whole. Let us not forget how our own government reacted to southern demands of independence. Criticizing Spain for its crackdown makes us nothing but hypocrites.
Catalonia is an integral part of Spain, and it has been so for over 300 years. The drive for independence is rooted in greediness and the perceived parasitism of other poorer Spanish states. Nor do the separatists have the majority of Catalans on their side. Catalonia's push for independence is not only frightening, it's also a testament to crude political opportunism and nationalism.
10
Spain is doomed. Not because of a possible separation from Catalonia, but because regardless of it all, if we had general elections tomorrow, the Popular Party would be re-elected. Do we have what we deserve?
6
Absolutely: yes,
. That is what democracy means
.
1
ABC, the Madrid daily, is reporting that the percentage of votes cast exceed 100 %. So much for fairness!
I have lived in Barcelona and Madrid and it’s important that Barcelona not be allowed to secede and this should be prevented by any means necessary. If Cataluña feels that it’s not getting a fair shake economically, then they need to sit down with the federal government and try to work out a better deal.
Any violence will be on their hands.
6
The use of force to prevent the democratic activity of voting shows that the Spanish government is illegitimate. Catalonia and the Basque Country should be independent nations. So should Kurdistan, Biafra, Katanga and others.
It is time we stopped accepting arbitrary borders and recognize the will of peoples.
14
This was an illegal referendum in a democratic nation. They could have sat down and talked and sorted things out for the next election. Half the people in Catalonia refused to vote in this hoax of a referendum. Those people count, too? Our legitimate government wants guarantees for independence and not straight out manipulation and misinformation. Dialogue and true commitment to the people(s) must ensue.
4
So CK, Catalonia and the Basque Country should be independent even though most Basques and Catalans have consistently voted against it? Did you know that Catalans and Basques have been able to vote for independence-minded parties in regional and municipal elections for nearly 40 years? And that they have consistently voted in favor of unionist parties? To compare a thriving civil society and democracy such as Spain's (where gay marriage for instance was legalized 10 years before the US, and only after Holland and Belgium) to Kurdistan and Biafra is preposterous.
5
Sounds good until they try it. If Catalonia, a place I love, breaks away what do they do for currency, the Euro, the US Dollar, the Pound? They all forget the overhead costs of being a nation. Quebec, another place I love, has realized over and over again that it's a lovely thought, but doesn't make practical sense. Keep in mind that less than 50% of the population voted for separation, what will separatists do for them? Will children only be schooled in Catalan? Quebec does that and a lot of children suffer. The Czechs peacefully let Slovakia go, but is Slovakia really better off? I don't think so. Hail Rohingyiana!
4
We're in a world where people enjoy the act of protesting rather than doing the hard work of finding solutions. There isn't a country on earth that doesn't have communities that claim their uniqueness and independence. You're not a special as you think you are, and there are far more important things to do with your time.
9
You are going to have to be far more motivated and disciplined than the Basque ever were. Spain isn't going to let go peacefully, and the Basque tried to Guerilla War their independence for a very long time without getting it.
2
This is about the survival of the Catalan language, culture and tax money. The majority of Catalans pro or anti independence want Madrid out of their faces. The Castilians since the union of the Crowns in the 15th century tried with some exceptions to erase other cultures and political rights in the Iberian Peninsula culminating in the Dictator Franco's attempt to destroy Catalonia language and culture and importing hundreds of thousands of Spaniards from Andalusia mainly to live in the region. Now most of their children of mixed ancestry are telling Spain to buzz off. Independence is a bad idea but what is needed is a modified constitution to get Madrid out the way.
1
Catalan nationalists are the oppressors of the population of Catalonia, not Madrid. You don't have popular support and want to take power by any means. You've been called out. No sympathy from me.
3
Could have the Rajoy government been any more ham-handed this weekend? Before this weekend, a case could be made that only a minority of vocal Catalonians supported this separatist movement. Now you can be sure the number is much, much larger. And where is young King Felipe VI in all of this? He should have already learned the lesson from his father Juan Carlos who showed courage and leadership when he stood up to the 1981 attempted coup to protect the young democracy.
All the while, Putin is grinning ear-to-ear, happy to see the western democracies consume themselves with petty in-fighting.
6
im confused, since when has any group just voted itself as a new country? this is what wars are fought for, you don't get Independence by voting for it. you get independence by bleeding for it, this has been the case throughout history. How disillusioned does one have to be to think Spain is just going to sit idly by as a large portion of their economy leaves?
5
Several former Soviet republics effectively voted themselves to independence in 1990-'91. It was not bloodless everywhere, to be sure.
In a democracy, when the people want to vote, they vote.
3
That's not democracy, it's simply anarchy. People like the rush of protest but have no idea of what it means to work hard to resolve problems.
5
As a Californian I'll remind you we have referendums, propositions and recall campaigns. Sounds great until you realize that, like Prop 8, there are many outcomes of direct democracy that are unwise and unjust. Thanks to a federal judge and a series of lawsuits, the democracy included equal rights for all. The legislative majority in the Catalan parliament stripped the non-nationalists of their rights. They proclaim they have the international right to overcome Spanish law? Can you cite a single court case in Catalonia, Spain, EU or the international courts where their so-called right of self determination has been upheld?
2
We have been asking for a solution for 7 seven years. There is a time to talk, there is a time to act and vote.
Didn´t the US go to war because of similar secessionist intentions ?
That was half a country, this is just a province. Should egos become more important than communities ? Communities more than provinces ? Provinces more that states ? States more than countries ?
Living together failures.
Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Crimea/Ukraine - for sure. The Kurds - maybe. Quebec, Scotland, Northern Ireland - close. And this list does not consider Africa or Asia.
History seems to show that people have a strong liking for wanting to govern themshelves.
Meanwhile let's hope that "things" can get resolved peacefully in Barcelona. We simply don't need another war zone.
3
Quebec has wavered but is currently strongly in favour of remaining part of Canada. Thank you.
5
Courage Catalonia. Hope they get it through for, Catalonia's ballot box has spoken last Sunday and it's pretty clear.
Meanwhile, what a picture of the current state of democracy in Europe and especially of the right of countries to decide their own fate does this voting has shown...
4
Oui, Jean-François,
I'm sure that if the Catalan/Occitaine and Basque communities on the French side of the Pyrénées dared to take even 20% of the steps currently taken in the Autonomous Region of Cataluña in Spain, the response of the hyper-central govetnment of France would make Rajoy and Madrid blanche.
Please remember the oppression and repression that Paris inflicted on those communities for decades in order to obtain the homogeneous French society (at least for the "white ", "real" French, n'est ce pas? ) that we see today.
5
The Spanish government will never let Catalonia be independent. Catalonia is the most prosperous province of Spain. Spain cannot financially afford to let Catalonia go. We have seen just the beginning of how far the government will go to prevent it.
3
Rajoy acted like Franco. Catalonia is prosperous, and Spaniards are exploiting it.
To the EU leaders "if you voted on the Spain bailout, you have fueled this street massacre.
EU needs to rescind all future aid, quickly.
The words of John Major and other scholarly euro skeptics, who always resisted Spain and Greece in the Euro, are 100% correct.
1
While Catalonia is certainly important economically to Spain, its the country's 4th wealthiest region, not the 1st.
1
Funny thing is, if you go to Perpignan, you will be welcomed by people openly displaying the flag of Catalonia. I don't see the French police going around and beating people up. Somehow, they manage to respect one another. Spain and France are both in the EU and it would seem that there should be some way to give recognition to Catalonia, perhaps through the European Commission or Parliament. Bashing people's heads in doesn't usually work in the long run and they have now created a few converts to independence.
6
I think you don't know you're talking about. The autonomous region of Catalonia in Spain has 1,000,000,000 more competences and power than any concevable region in France. IN Spain Catalonia has its own police, health system, education system, transports, environmental competences... In France 0,0.
5
When you take the bus tours, you will visit a Gaudi Village about 60 minutes from Barcelona, almost all homes fly the Catalonia flag.
It reminded us of Texas, where most folks in suburbia fly the Texan flag as opposed to the US flag.
2
Is Catalan and Basque co-official in France as it is in Spain, by which I mean fully taught in the schools and the vehicles of all official business? Of course not. It was actually a Bourbon who began the suppression of Catalan after they sided with the Habsburgs in the War of the Spanish Succession. So what we don't need are lessons from the French.
4
Why can't Spain follow the example of G.B? London did not stop Scotland from voting by sending troops. Instead, it campaigned against the Yes" vote and won. That is how Democracy is supposed to work.
Rajoy made a big mistake and he should resign for this crisis to find a peaceful solution.
6
Wrong. Democracy does not include the right to separate from the national state. You see how we dealt with this in the US when the south broke off. Stop spreading misinformation, and portraying this as a fight for democracy.
It's not.
5
Quebec voted and lost, Britain voted and won, Macedonia region in north Greece is next to probably plan one, CA probably.
A bit of history may help to understand the current situation. The Statute of Autonomy of Catalunya was approved in 2006 when the Socialist Party was in the Government. Four years later, the Constitutional Court with a one vote majority of the right wing Popular Party changed fourteen articles and produced a revised Statute that has never been accepted in Catalunya and fully implemented by the Popular Party Presidents. In 2016, Catalunyans tired of lack of progress, elected a Parliament in which the nationalist parties are majority (86 seats of a total of 135). Their main programatic point was to do a referendum.
The Spanish government only answer has been to state that referendums are unconstitutional. No dialogue with the Catalunyan government, only the threat that the Law will be applied. Two former Catalunyan Presidents have been in jail.
Now since the referendum is illegal the message to those who oppose separation is: do not vote. Participation on the referendum was slightly under 40% and the Yes was above 90% of them. What most Catalunyans have expressed is that they want a referendum with a significantly higher participation and that could be undertaken normally. To this the National government has not only been silent but responded with repressive violence. You can blame Catalunyans for wanting independence buy should blame more the Spanish government for its lack of willingnees to assume basic responsibility in negotiating alternative solutions.
9
I learned about Catalan independence of mind from a proud Catalan who claimed that before the English had their Magna Carta, Catalan nobles gathered before their king and told him, "Each of us is equal to you. And together, we are greater than you."
And the man who spoke so proudly of his heritage this way embodied the Catalan spirit of independence. He was so fierce against the government of Spain under the dictator Franco that it was his rule never to play in any country that recognized Franco's government.
This was Pablo Casals, who began every morning, not with his cello, but at the piano, playing something of Bach.
"Bach," he said, "is the beginning and the end of everything."
But he was sure that Catalonia began the history of curbing tyrants.
8
Please, take care of History. Don’t joke about it.
1
Right, and Madrid was the capital of the 2nd Republic and under siege by Franco's forces for 3 years. Franco, like Rajoy, was Galician (another community with its own co-official language). And there were MANY Catalan supporters of Franco (Dali no less, whom the Generalitat know uses for its international branding purposes). Franco was behind the establishment of SEAT in Catalonia, which to this day assures a large, export-oriented auto industry. Enough with the self-serving, nationalist half-lies. Ask the Cuban slaves owned by Catalan "negreros" in the 19th century whether they think the Catalans were any more respectful of others' human rights than the Castillians or any on else.
8
Thank you Jason, few people, much less Americans, know about the strong links between Catalonia and Cuba. The Catalonians established in Cuba (Indianos) made their fortunes in rum and sugar, both of which required the extensive use of slave labor; the Bacardi family, originally from Sitges, is an example. Oh, and all those beautiful modernist buildings that grace the Eixample, (and which American tourists line up to see) well guess where that money came from? After Spain lost Cuba in 1898, the Indianos returned to Barcelona and helped build the city everyone knows and loves today. So you see, the gracious Barcelona you see today was built on blood money - the money made off slave labor.
4
Independence movements in democracies are a difficult concept to get your head around. On the one hand, democracies govern based on the consent of the governed, but on the other hand democracies are governed based on the rule of law. We can't have borders breaking and forming every time the political winds shift.
Breaking up a sovereign nation is not something that should be taken lightly, but it must be possible. It is ridiculous, for example, that the UK is breaking from the EU after a single nearly 50-50 vote. Independence votes should be allowed as desired, but require a super-majority, such as a 2/3 majority vote, and it should probably require 2 votes at least 2 years apart. It's just too easy right now to take such a drastic step.
7
Really? This was a referendum on Catalan independence? It was a farce where people were allowed to vote as many times a they wished, wherever they wished, without presenting any documentation. It was anything but a legitimate referendum by any independent measure. The optics were horrible no doubt. The central government did not handle the situation well but the outcome both of violence and overwhelming support for independence, was entirely predictable. The majority of Spaniards who live in the Catalunya region wish to remain as part of Spain but the Catalan leaders have stolen the narrative, lied to Catalans and now have the pictures and video to prove the heretofore non-existent "repression." Shameful.
13
Then the majority of voters will vote out the majority party in the next real election. Simple.
1
President Rajoy acted just like Eisenhower did in Little Rock, when the local authorities defied the rule of law and constitutional order.
Claims of police brutality have been incredibly exaggerated. Compare the Spanish police actions with those of our bayonet-wielding troops in the South, or the police in Selma, who attacked peaceful marchers with dogs, truncheons and water canons. No comparison there. Today, only two people remain hospitalized with minor, non life-threatening injuries. Rajoy was defending the rights of all Catalonians because without the rule of law there is anarchy. It should be pointed out that a silent majority in Catalonia does not support independence. This collective is silent because the vigilantism of independists groups, such as the powerful ANC, an organization that exists thanks to Catalonian government subsidies These groups keep more than half the population in fear of retribution, including children in schools who are forced to be schooled only in Catalan, the language of only 36% of the total population. Mind you that the vehicular language of 51% of Catalonians is Spanish, a language practically banned in schools and universities. In Barcelona any establishment exhibiting signs or advertisement in Spanish is cited by the local police. Many people are truly afraid to Speak Spanish in public places for fear of what can happen to them at work or in the community.
7
Listen to us citizens of the world. We are the voice of those who have never spoken and no one has heard, we are the voice of most of the silent citizens of our nation who have expressed themselves democratically for 40 years. We are the nation's citizens who for the first time in history have succeeded in building a democratic society, free and fair, without violence. We are the most ardent supporters of the European Union, the most just, happy and democratic European society in history. Listen to us because these days the Spanish citizens are in danger. The nationalisms among us are the seed of violence. We have patiently endured all these years of insults and lies waiting for peaceful coexistence.
Now we know that it is not possible, secessionists are a anachronistic and perverse scourge that has to be fought, not with violence as yesterday, but with the strength of the pen, which in the end is more powerful than the sword.
We are devastated and frightened, trapped between nationalists who do not hesitate to use violence against us. Some verbal violence and the constant threat and the other with the police.
We need you to listen to those who have never spoken, the prudent, those who hate nationalism and believe in the equality of people without marks or origin, we need you. From this peaceful battle the world of the future will emerge. The result will be the new societies of this century, we only speak for the instinct of survival. Our tragedy today may be yours tomorrow.
18
The problem of Spain is not more Catalonia. We leave but The Popular Party, the most corrupted political party in Europe, is still ruling Spain... that's your tragedy, that's the web you are trapped in.
1
Which nation? Castillian, Catalan or Basque?
As for violence, the only violence we have seen so far in this matter is from Franco in the past, and the Spanish Civil Guard on Oct 1st.
So spare us the sanctimony.
Catalonia has reached a paranoid state.
For instance, this TV "documentary" was financed with public money by the Catalan Government TV
THE APPROPRIATION OF THE DISCOVERY OF AMERICA: A CONSPIRACY OF STATE?
A woman follows the tracks provided by a historian about the historical falsification surrounding the events related to the discovery of America.
With the help of many conversations with historians she exposes the manipulations and historical misrepresentations and policies initiated by the Crown of Castile.
http://www.ccma.cat/tv3/Cristofor-Colom-i-les-Ameriques-dissabte-a-Mille...
By the way, according to this "historian", Jordi Bilbeny, both Columbus and Leonardo Da Vinci were Catalans. Other famous Catalans "discovered" by this "historian", are Cervantes, Américo Vespucio, Hernan Cortés and Bartolomé de las Casas. Give him a little rope and it will turn out that George Washington was born in Barcelona.
This is the kind of parochial nationalistic babble the Catalan government has been feeding to children for more than 20 years.
10
I recall another recent referendum where people of a different culture voted for independence with a 90% margin: Crimea in 2014. That election was widely derided as fraudulent, and in this case we're suppose to believe that 90% of the population wants to be independent?
That being said, the Spanish government handled the situation poorly. They should have let Catalonian vote on their independence, and make the terms of leaving very clear: no more EU membership, no preferential trade agreements, and exclusion of all Catalan soccer teams from la Liga. If that was the case, the separatists would surely be singing a different tune.
9
Perhaps this referendum, and that of the Kurds, would become binding if the US would actually support the principles that it thinks make sense for its own people.
Just what the world needs, another army and another seat an already crowded UN table. Make a country small enough and everyone in it can live like the king, albeit one without any servants. What a power trip that must be.
3
NYT: it took you weeks (months) to cover Standing Rock. Now I find any coverage of the recent democratic and civil right suppression in Catalonia at the bottom of the Sunday page. I refreshed all day looking for it to get to the top story, which it should be. When are you going to wake up and offer meaningful coverage with the level of urgency needed? In this case, the referendum was planned-you could not miss to cover this correctly but it was shamefully buried under many other articles, many not as important as this. Human rights in Puerto Rico and mass shootings in Nevada are crucial but so is international news that deeply relates to how, while devastation rains around us, capitalism is choking democracies around the world. Please fix your priorities and push the idiot “white noise in the whitehouse” off page one to make room for actual news.
11
How many of you know that the Catalan regional government, La Generalitat, prohibits primary and secondary students from studying in Spanish? They have to study in catalan even though only 50% use it in their daily lives? Almost 100% speak Spanish, an international language of 450 million! A student has more right studying in Spanish in the USA! All the Courts have ordered it to respect the rights of the Spanish students but they refuse to obey!
The Catalan nationalist movement is caused by a supremacist ideology; they think that are superior to other Spaniards, and are similar to other nationalist and racist movements in Europe and the USA. They have copied and are allied with the basque nationalists, whose founder was a racist that accuse the rest of Spaniards of being mixed with Arabs and Jews. Thy invite basque terrorists freed from prison and celebrate them in officials functions.
Finally . It's insanity for the left to support this and other nationalist movements that preach hate of other ethnic groups and do not want to share their wealth
23
Let me guess, your parents were faithful falangistas during the dictatorship and you grew up surrounded by an ideology that rejects the multiethnic makeup of Spain and it's different cultures and realities. And of course you've never lived in Catalonia or the Basque Country. If you had it would be harder to make those bogus claims about the schools in Catalonia or ikastolas 'brainwashing' students. How many times have I heard disparaging comments about Catalan culture and even downright hatred because they speak another language? Almost on a daily basis in Madrid. What does the rest of Spain offer Catalonia? Hatred, violence and a rejection of their basic democratic and human rights? It's hard to think of anyone who wouldn't want to secede after what happened yesterday.
3
Absolutely. The Spanish and their language have been so careful to preserve the indigenous cultures and languages of South and Central America. The Mayans, the Aztecs and the Incas all have schools, temples and newspapers in their language. What's wrong with these paranoid Catalans? Why are they asserting their culture so aggressively and trying to preserve it? These Catalans must be supremacists because they share a country with the most peace loving, inclusive people of all time.
3
"How many of you know that the Catalan regional government, La Generalitat, prohibits primary and secondary students from studying in Spanish?"
Are you serious? How can you tell such a lie and don't turn a hair?
In "la selectividad" (similar to USA SAT) the catalan youngsters achieve better grades than spanish average in the spanish language section. And this is a fact that you can search for.
Your statement is plain ridiculous
1
A short history of Catalonia and Spain (look up the different points and decide for yourself):
When Catalonia asks for basic rights and more democracy, Spain responds with repression, absolutism or dictatorship.
Examples:
1624-1659. Catalonia: “We want to keep our laws and institutions." Spain: Count-Duke of Olivares, War of the Reapers, Treaty of the Pyrenees, Felipe IV (“Rey de todas las Españas”).
1701-1714. Catalonia: “We want to keep our laws and institutions." Spain: War of Succession, Duke of Berwick, Felipe V, Decree of “Nueva Planta”.
1907-1925. Catalonia: “We want to manage our territory, through the Mancomunitat de Catalunya.” Spain: Coup d’état, Primo de Rivera dictatorship.
1931-1939. Catalonia: “We want a Catalan State within the Federal Spanish Republic.” Spain: Coup d’état. Franco dictatorship.
1975-1978. Catalonia: “We want a democracy.” Spain: A restrictive, virtually unamendable Constitution, written to the sound of saber rattling. Imposition of a monarchy, headed by Franco’s ward, Juan Carlos I.
1978-2010. Catalonia: “We want real autonomy and to be respected by the rest of Spain.” Spain: Boycott of Catalan products. Severe cuts to the 2006 Estatut.
2010-2017. Catalonia: “We want to decide on our relationship with Spain through a referendum.” Spain: Prosecution of those who facilitate such a vote.
October 1, 2017. Catalonia: “We are going to hold a referendum on our political future, come hell or high water.” Spain: “We will give you both!”
12
These very well picked examples are exactly the type of biased information the catalonians are being indoctrinated with through propaganda. If you get to open a Spanish history book - a more comprehensive one, of course, - you will recognise events like these all over the national territory throughout the last 500 years. You will actually find events like these on most European history books. Such is our belligerent nature (our human nature). Just so you feel included and not so special, please check this short list in Wikipedia of European conflicts:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Europe
And, by the way, most of what you wrote there, affected all of Spain, not just Catalonia. You are most definitely not so special. And travel a bit to check what oppression really looks like nowadays.
3
So the history of Spain over the past 400 years is summed up as a series of reactions against Catalan demands for independence. A rather self-centered historical distortion, isn't it?
Yes, the history of Spain is full of despots, but those despots didn't just oppress Catalans. Franco's Regime murdered thousands of people throughout Spain, not just in Catalonia. Contemporary Catalan nationalism is not a popular struggle for independence against a colonial invader, as your argument suggests. It is ultimately the same-old nationalist ideology of a group of self-centered closet racists who feel superior to the rest of Spain, refuse to pay taxes to support the "freeloaders" from poorer regions and will shamelessly falsify history and present themselves as victims (1978-2010. Catalonia: “We want real autonomy and to be respected by the rest of Spain.”). Yesterday's horrific violence and the fact that Rajoy is an inept leader doesn't automatically legitimize the other side.
4
Yes, in many of these cases Catalonia was participating in larger events alongside many groups. Catalonia aligned itself with sides that seemed to ensure its institutions best, and in some of the cases cited above, Catalonia was a driving force behind the change the citizens of Spain were trying to make. But, in the face of defeat, Catalans have not given up or accepted being assimilated. They've tried to work the political side of the coin as well as they could to remain who they are (albeit with different errors committed): the Second Spanish Republic, definition of Spain as a plurinational country, etc. The struggle now is really about human rights and democracy, and the government of Spain is going down the same path it has tended to take over the course of history.
All of this could have been halted years ago if the government in Madrid ever engaged in a real dialogue with the people in Catalonia who have been demonstrating since 2010 (and who organized themselves better from 2012 on). Rajoy always said, "In the absence of violence, anything can be discussed." Well, there was an absence of violence here from 2012 to October 1, 2017, and he refused to discuss the main thing that the Catalan demonstrators wanted to discuss: a mechanism for accurately guaging the opinion of the population of Catalonia on what their relationship with Spain should be, i.e., a referendum agreed upon by Spain and Catalonia, like the Scottish one.
1
Forty-two percent voting ninety percent to secede is about 38% of the eligible voting population. What about the other 62%? I think we see the majority of the populace boycotting this effort effectively saying no. What the government did in sending in the police was just stupid. No better way to cement opposition. I lived in Barcelona. Catalans are very chauvinistic. The truth is that Franco was equally awful to the Catalans, the Gallegos and the Basques. Catalans are a minority in the province. They aren't repressed. They have been on this path for decades and have not achieved anything. However, the Olympics made them a tourist destination. Enjoy that and count the money.
14
Even in some selected comments, the point is made that Catalans want independence because they don't want to share in helping lagging regions in Spain. This is a hideous canard, easy to sell to good-intentioned, and even very well-read people, alien to the relentless abuse of Catalans by an outwardly simpatico Spanish state led by people who sit at the dinner table with parents and grandparents still mourning Franco's death, and sadly reinforced by an inept attempt of the leadership in Catalonia to explain the real motives to the outside world.
Let me share with you the translation of what can be found posted in arguably the most prestigious, and moderate newspaper out of Barcelona, La Vanguardia. It is the heartbreaking audio of what happened to Marta, a Catalan young girl at a voting place, while she was protecting elderly people - she is speaking to a friend: Laura, listen, I was defending elderly people because they (National Police) were hitting children and elderly alike, they threw me down the stairs while kicking me, they broke each of my fingers one at a time; halfway down the stairs they stripped my clothes, and fondled my breasts while laughing and hitting me, and even while they were being taped by people around them. Please let everybody know. They was broken my fingers, one at a time; there was so much evil in what they did, so much evil."
Listening to the story is heart wrenching, but it doesn't surprise any Catalan.
10
http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20171001/431704301221/marta-torreji...
The right to vote, the right to self-determination -- all people deserve these rights. It is atrocious that Spain (with Catalonians) and Iraq (with the Kurds) are trying to prevent their citizens from exercising fundamental democratic rights.
9
California should organize a referendum to secede from the US. Or maybe Texas or New York. Is that what you are saying? Or even better, Silicon Valley should become an independent country. Their tech industry makes tons of money.
I find the Catalan 'leadership' highly irresponsible. To say the least. Politicians with too big of an ego wanting to establish a new country and of course become the president or maybe the king of that newly established country. One cannot settle for less, right? And people vote for these clowns (politicians)? Insanity.
7
There is no fundamental right to secede from your country. Look up the American Civil War.
If they want to exercise their rights, do it through the laws of Spain. Otherwise we will have anarchy.
To recite and remember what happened in 1714 is a tontería.
3
This is such a mess and really unnecessary. If Mr. Rivera is right, then why didn't the Madrid government just simply allow the vote to happen, with proper administration and independent verification from representatives of other EU nations? Then the true level of support would be obvious and if it's true that the majority of Catalonians want to remain, we'd see it clearly. This is like Cameron agreeing to the referendum on Scottish independence. In the end, the remain side won and they didn't leave the UK.
The violent actions of this event will now affect any attempts to negotiate or cooperate. Could you imagine if the Catalonians had the access to guns that Americans do? What would have happened? It strikes me that the events in Las Vegas and the calls for gun control are in contrast to the events in Spain. Although there was violence there, guns would certainly have made it worse!
8
After Franco, the entire country invested heavily in Cataluña. Now that they are rich because of the sacrifices of the entire country, they want out.
6
Why didn't they invest in other regions?
Perhaps they did.
I understand there is a wonderful new museum in Bilbao which is world class and not in Catalonia.
The coverage of these events has not been good. The press is framing it as a quest for "freedom" or "independence" as if Catalonia were an oppressed colony and not an integral part of a free and independent country. It is not seeking freedom, it is seeking secession from a union that is 500 years old.
It seems driven by pure hubris and xenophobia. No one covered the fact that residents of Catalonia from other parts of the country were not allowed to vote. The election was a ridiculous farce. Why aren't the papers covering it this way? In addition to the government of Spain, the EU has stated that the elections were illegal. What in the world are the protesters after? Why can't the papers ask that question? Why are Americans hoping Spain splits in two? What will that get anyone?
11
"Preserving the Union" is not worth a fight. Territorial instincts to are best left to dogs.
Lincoln Felt it was ; and people are not dogs although some behave like dogs !
1
...whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
1
That is the way in which builds the democracy spanish now enjoy, and that is the way decide to enter the European Union. All democratic and shared decisions. Fortunately also agreed on a constitution and laws to shape these agreements. If have to change them will have to be convinced in all the places involved. With the behavior of the secessionists and their scorn, I honestly do not see what agreements can be reached. And if it is by force you will have to remember that in the rest of the places there are also citizens willing to use theirs in the defense of interests that also believe fair. It is the racist problems that at the end, with them there is no possible agreement because people can change political ideology but nobody can change birthplace, and in the nationalisms that is the deep essence of their political behavior.
1
It seems the response caught people by surprise, it seemed that. . .(wait for it)
Nobody Expects The Spanish Inquisition!
The impulsive rejection of the notion of Catalan independence by people here--with so little awareness of this history or background--can only be described as reactionary. I have lived in Catalunya, and in southern Spain, too. It is another country. The language was outlawed during the Franco era. It is also a far more progressive place than the rest of Spain, one reason why the emerging experiment there will be fascinating to watch. It may help to know that the transition from Franco was engineered to leave much of the repressive architecture of fascism in place; that has been on full display as the Madrid far-right government, playing fully into the hands of independence leaders, attacked people this weekend--the leadership had expected and even hoped for this, because it was a clear demonstration of what the future holds in a neoliberal-right Spain. For decades Madrid has promised the people of Catalunya greater measures of autonomy without ever coming through. People have a right to collectively determine their own futures. Happily, it doesn't matter so much what "liberal" readers of the N Y Times think. There's no law or clear independent logic to the idea that countries must be enormous, especially given emerging global conditions of production; the real fear in Madrid is that this gives new life to independence movments in Valencia, Andalusia, the Basque Country, and in Galicia. Catalunya--meantime--is on the way to independence.
26
Dear Matthew, I don't know how many time you lived in Cataluña and in the South of Spain as you say, but l'm spanish living all my 49 years in many different cities of Spain and let me kindly tell you that reading your post I think you don't now my country and our history. You may consider an ilegal unilateral independence as 'fascinating to watch' but I better suggest not to play or make experiments with the tranquility, security and wellness present and future of the millions of spanish families including catalans. We are a Democracy in the European Union of the XXI and we the spanish people look fotward to our common Constitution, base for the convivence of 47millions of spanish souls, will prevail. I kindly invite you to visit me in Spain, a wonderful country where catalans are totally mixed with all the others through all type of relationships, familiar, laboral, comercial, economical, cultural, etc and where a great part of Cataluña inhabitants arrived from other spanish regions.
5
It is a fact to me as a long time reader of this paper, that Mr. Raphael Minded plays the game of the corrupt catalonian government. It is a pity that he overlooks the violence, racism and manipulation of the nationalist. As a basque who went through this nationalism that so often has shattered Europe I ask this excellent newspaper that I admire, to check closely for his personal connections. It is a well kown fact here how the Catalan Government treats foreign correspondent...$$$. Best to my fellow readers and my dear US people, please dont let Spain down, it would be terrible for Europe.
10
What was the Spanish government thinking? They should have let the vote happen and then dealt with the political aftermath like civilized beings. Before yesterday, at least half of Catalans were against or on the fence about independence. Today, you can bet there's a strong majority in favor, and it's no wonder why: who wants to exist under the mercy of such a government? Spain might as well go ahead and break up. Give Basque its independence, too. Small countries fare well enough in Europe, but Spain is a wreck in more ways than one.
72
Rajoy's Spain is unworthy of the label 'democratic'. Intolerant, chauvinistic, and nationalistic, with a heavy dose of Opus Dei laden piety. A Catholic version of Erdogan's Turkey.
5
A government is not a country. A government has a 4 year term both in Spain and in the USA. Should all the Spanish provinces become independent? Should most American states leave the Union because of Trump? A country is a hard thing to govern and content. This government will pay its dues on the next election. Their management of this crisis was inadmissible. Thus thinks most of the Spanish people, including the Catalonians. We should work on solutions together under the rule of law, or create better laws, but not drop the ball as soon as things don't go our way like spoiled children.
3
A cool-headed and well balanced assessment of the situation.
That said, one president or prime minister can make decisions that lead to irreparable damage. Rajoy has done so by using the Falangist shock troops to intimidate civilians this weekend. And what can one say about the entirety of the Trump regime? America will never be able to reassume its high moral ground after Trump completes his destruction of a once superpower....
Catalonia is forcing secession over nationalist, cultural, and ethnic reasons. This is not a liberal, progressive uprising, but a somewhat ethnic-nationalist one. This is never a good thing. The Catalans see themselves as being racially and culturally superior to the rest of Spain (seriously spend some time with an educated Catalan and see how he/she feels about Spanish culture vs Catalan culture.) However, as it just happens, based on Spanish law, and the Spanish constitution, which was signed and agreed upon in 1978 by all the autonomous regions (including Catalonia) this is unconstitutional (here in America, we use that word as a weapon.) Therefore, forcing through the referendum by Catalonia is an act of aggression almost akin to declaring war. What is Spain (and Rajoy) supposed to do? Sit quietly and allow a technically, by Spanish law, illegal vote to take place? Or uphold the law? By attempting to uphold the law (in a admittedly ineffectual way) Rajoy is being portrayed as a Francoist. In all the articles I have read, it has been mentioned that Rajoy is a conservative. And that Pablo Iglesias, of Podemos supports the Referendum. I wonder if Iglesias would feel the same way if HE was the president of Spain
9
Rajoy is a conservative in Spain but in the USA he would be considered somewhere between Obama and Bernie. Rajoy supports Universal Healthcare, affordable collage tuition for all and Social Security for all.
5
The civilized response to a peaceful exercise in democracy--even a "technically illegal" or wrong-headed one--is never to send armed forces to threaten and assault citizens, and steal property. Yes, Madrid should have let the vote proceed and then engaged with its result as politically necessary. Whatever the result, their moral position then would have been better than it stands today.
I respect if somebody feels sick about images of the police yesterday in Cataluña, I wish and hope that all injured citizens and policemen are already well at home, but my repulse is against the Catalan Local Goverment that originated these events by organising and promoting an unilateral secesionist referendum against our democratic Laws, the direct and repeated prohibition of the Judges and High Courts and violating the Spanish Constitution, base for the convivence of 47 millions of spanish souls. It is uncalculable the damage being made by these capricious and irresponsible Catalan secesionists to the tranquility, security and wellness present and future of the millions of spanish families. Today we the spanish people, included most of catalans, look forward to the action of our democratic Courts and Institutions to bring to justice those secesionist leaders that are violating our laws and frames of convivence, and that our governants and political parties work together to find the way and ensure that our Constitution and Democracy will prevail.
12
Doesn't matter. It will not be tomorrow when I visit Spain for the holidays. The behaviour of your riot police was a powerful reminder of the strength of Franco's ghost in your country even today.
4
Ah, oui, M. ou Mme. AE?
I would like to see what the reaction from the central government of France would be if the Basque or Catalan/occitaine regions of France dared to go anywhere near to what the Catalans in Spain are doing?
Catalan and Basque languages in France were all but wiped out by the centralism of imposing French as a single unifying national language. The results that we see now is a homogenous country (for the "white" French, at least), but it did not come without a heavy expense of repression of local cultures and languages, a la Franco. decades and centuries ago.
4
M. or Mme. AE, I see simmilar police actions every day through all countries including EU and USA, don't you? nobody likes this but is the last solution democracies have after all requests have been sent to those who acts against the laws. In the images you can see many people behind that ilegal separatist poll, but you cannot see a bigher amount of catalans staying at home supporting the laws and Constitution defended in the streets by the police. The police acted with the most possible serenity and as carefully as possible trying to avoid injuries, with the only target to accomplish the Courts mandates to close the buildings being use for this ilegal act, a very complicate task to do when you don't want to hurt nobody. You can be informed that no more than a couple of injuries are of some relevance. We are very proud of our police in Spain, tbey are part of us, citizens like any otber, tbey and their families suffered during decades the extreme violence, assesinations and terrorist attacks from ETA sacrifying their lives to ensure that Democracy prevailed in front of terrorism. Change your mind my friend, spanish police is our best guaranty that no other Franco will come, while today Mr. Puigdemont and rest of catalan local goverment are the contrary. Regarding your next visit to Spain, I invite you not to wait so much, come and enjoy tbis well- kown beautifull country, contact me and you will be welcome to my home...
2
Perhaps we could've uttered "Prudence, indeed" from our old Declaration when Catalonia held the referendum, and Spain could've ignored both the vote and its results, like our Congress does whenever the colony of Puerto Rico holds yet another confusingly-balloted status vote. It would've left neither side satisfied, but at least Spain would've came out looking civilized. Instead, Spain went full Franco and brought out federal thugs in riot gear, and gave Catalonia all the more reason and right to not just leave Spain but RUN from them.
When you need to restrain people with force from holding a peaceful independence vote, unity is already a lost cause and they've won by default.
Go Catalonia!
11
I am perplexing by the overwhelming support of the Spanish central government.
Isn't it too convenient to sweep this issue under the rug by declaring the referendum illegal? If law doesn't protect people's basic right to own their own government, what good is the law anyway?
Why are we ignoring the will of Catalonia people's will to be independent by declaring it illegal? Do you want to live under the law that forbid you from seeking your own future?
If Madrid can win this debate, why not support an official referendum and held a public debate? Play out the pros and cons of an independent Catalonia and let people decide. I remember Canadians handled Quebec independence with open arms, not police force and rubber bullets.
14
Self determination is a fundamental right for all people. The Catalans are a people. Madrid chose to prevent a vote by a peaceful people with violence and intimidation. That's dumb and counterproductive. It will make separatists out of people who weren't so inclined. Go Catalans!
27
Dear William Dufort,
Why do you say self determination is a fundamental right for all people? What granted people that right? Surely you know that the vast majority of humans have not had full freedom.
2
I doubt the Catalonian area is going to be able to get independence so readily. They lost independence in the 12th century and were absorbed into Spain in 1469. If Spain wants their resources and land, it doesn't have to let them go. Catalonia has no independent army, no militia that could stand up to Spain's army, and thus no leverage for gaining independence.
So this is probably not going to go anywhere, sorry. There was a referendum on Catalonian independence in 1979 too, and that didn't go anywhere either. What will be necessary for independence to come about is for Spain to weaken to the point where it can't hang onto the territory militarily.
2
Probably has more to do with the humongous debt the Government of Catalonia has, which they will no doubt renounce with a claim of independence.
6
We have a long-planned trip to Barcelona coming up very soon. Plane tickets and accommodations booked months ago. Suddenly thinking its not such a good time to visit...
4
There are better places for you to spend your vacation dollars. Boycott Spain's neo-fascist drift, the country does not deserve your support. In addition there is a considerable anti-tourist backlash against foreigners today. Just another no-go zone.
1
When it comes to Spain and EU, a lot of people seem to suggest that unity is the way to go, division within Europe will hurt everyone which can potentially destabilize the EU and give a lot of headache.
When it comes to Iraqi Kurdistan and the Middle East, majority of the people in the West seem to be in favor of independence, break-up of Iraq creating another tribal state in the Middle East created by divisions along ethnic and sectarian lines.
Just another example of century-old western imperialism and hypocrisy where the poor people of the Middle East already suffering from years of war and violence are encouraged to be divided further and fight for many years to come, while the people of EU are encouraged to keep the status quo.
1
Actually, it was "western imperialism" (in the form of the establishment of the states of Syria and Iraq after World War I) which denied the Kurds their own state.
No, they tried (Treaty of Sevres), but a brave, anti-imperialist movement in Anatolia led by Kemal Ataturk pushed the imperialist powers out of Anatolia, sealed the present day Turkey's borders and put the Treaty of Sevres into garbage.
my question is if they achieve that freedom to call themselves "whetever" are they going to support the TAXES that are required to BE FREE? or do they just expect everyone else to foot the bill so they can call themselve free. If long term formal governments can't make things workl, what makes them think they can create something out of thin air.
5
When I went to Barcelona 2 years ago. One of the consistent points I heard on this issue is that the Catalonia Region only gets back about 20% of the taxes they pay. They are one of the wealthier regions of Spain whose taxes support many other regions in Spain. Its Spain that needs their money, not the other way around.
4
Catalonia creates the majority of wealth for Spain; this is why the leadership in Madrid is suppressing their independence.
5
RachelK, Catalonia is heavily indebted and the rest of Spain has paid dearly for its infrastructure. Now their government want to keep the highways, harbors and trains and stick us with the bill.
3
Despite what you may hear from some Spaniards, Catalonia has always been an autonomous polity, even when it constituted a subdivision of a suprastate. When it did serve as vassal, the people rebelled any time their lord tried to assert more control over their nation.
People seem to think suppression of Catalan and a Catalan identity was confined to a 35-year period in the middle of the 20th Century, under Franco. Not so. The language was officially abolished by the Bourbons during the 18th Century, and, until the post-Franco Spanish Republic, had been in a precarious position.
The fact that Catalan still exists and is actively spoken by a healthy number of people is testament to the enduring spirit of the Catalan people. Consider its coursin, Occitan, across the border in France, the dialects (and associated culture) of which once dominated the southern half of the country. Now, those dialects are endangered or already moribund. (Unlike Spain, France was much more successful in its quest for a centralized state.) Consider the remaining Celtic languages—Breton, Cornish, Welsh, Scottish Gaelic, Irish Gaelic, and Manx—all of which are in a similar predicament. Cornish might already be lost.
I sympathize with Catalans. They have longed for independence for centuries; it's in their DNA. They see what has happened to the indigenous minorities of Europe who lack self-rule. They believe self-rule is their right. The Spanish government just affirmed that belief.
13
This is a fascinating case-study in democracy. Generally, we support the right of people to determine their own form of government. When a group that is already part of a democratically elected government wishes independence, should it be granted? How would we feel if Maine, Alaska, or California held such a referendum? Or the Kurds in Iraq?
5
What a fascinating reflection of the 1995 referendum held in Quebec. And of course, what you non-Canadians are not getting (from the Times, at least) is the likely barrage of misinformation put forth by the Catalonian ministers who are small fish in a big pond and want to be big fish in a smaller pond. Same thing happened here.
Quebec had a stodgy premier and ardent separatist, Jacques Parizeau, who wasn't lighting any fires for the Yes camp. Along came the populist Lucien Bouchard, who was the leader of the Federal separatist party, the BQ. He became the de facto leader of the campaign and reversed the antipathy, and as you know, the separatists almost won. This swept aside all the problems -- particularly those associated with "maitre chez nous" (masters in our own house) and the implicit definition of "nous" as "pur laine" (dyed in the wool, meaning "old stock" French) Quebecers. Bouchard said, in a masterfully damning piece of populist rhetoric: ""We're one of the white races that has the fewest children." Separatists said (and still say) that they are a welcoming civil society, but it's always been clear who "we" are.
And what was revealed later was that Parizeau, despite the non-binding nature of the referendum, said that had the Yes side won, he would have moved nevertheless to separation. Remember: Catalonia's was BINDING. No wonder the Spanish PM acted; he had to.
7
Spain should blame European countries who recognized independence of Kosovo, encouraging separatists in other countries. It is difficult to explain why violent militants of Kosovo were deserved independence and Democratic Catalonia does not. Spain definitely saw such outcome and didn't recognize Kosovo, too bad that other European countries were much more near sighted
3
Classic First World Problem. The leaders of Europe's separatist movements, who can be found in every large country save Germany, remind me of America's TV evangelical leaders. Unscrupulous egotists who've found a lucrative calling leading the simple minded. Trump will surely support them if he hasn't already
13
Trump stated that he'd like a unified Spain, but that was... ya know... last week.
THE TRUTH..
-Spain is a western democracy. Catalonia is a region of Spain. The people in Catalonia have voted 6 times in the last five years.
-In the last regional election, pro-secession parties decided to unite around a single issue –independence- and not only failed to win a majority of the vote, but also they lost votes relative to the prior election. Polls, even those paid by the separatists, show support for independence is a minority and in decline. To conform the government this pro-secession "joint venture" had to accept in the government a party called CUPs which is a pro-terrorist anti system organization.
-Catalonia is not “oppressed”.
-The party that traditionally ran the regional government of Catalonia has used public money to promote a separatist agenda through education and local media and has illegally funded itself with a corrupt scheme where contractors had to pay bribes of at least 3%of any public work.
-The region of Catalonia has never existed as an independent political entity.
-Spain is parliamentary democracy, with a constitution that can be amended.
-THE SPANISH CONSTITUTION STATES THAT THE NATIONAL SOVEREIGNTY BELONGS TO THE SPANISH PEOPLE.IT IS THE WHOLE COUNTRY WHO IS ENTITLE TO DECIDE ITS FUTURE, NOT A UNIQUE REGION. YESTERDAY THE PEOPLE COULD VOTE SEVERAL TIMES, WAS SUSPENDED BY OUR CONSTITUTIONAL SUPREME COURT.
THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE FROM SPAIN TO VOTE THEIR FUTURE TOGETHER HAS BEEN KIDNAPPED BY A MINORITY OF CATALONIAN REBELLIOUS.
34
'Catalonia is not ''oppressed''.
So how would you describe the treatment accorded by the neo-fascist riot police who maimed and injured defenceless civilians with riotous abandon? Hardly a sign of Madrid's love of the Catalonian people, that stands to reason.
8
AE, rubber bullets and batons are standard riot police methods all over the world, including in France, the US, Germany, etc. . Was the hard response by the central government foolish? No doubt. Was it in any way illegal or "fascist"? Absolutely not, unless you also consider every riot police group in the Western world fascistic.
3
Certainly NOT in France! I have personally witnessed riot scenes involving clashes between alienated youth from the housing projects and French riot police. Tear gas was used to disperse crowds, yes. But I did not see a single case of civilians getting brutalised with truncheons nor thrown down heights. The Falangists in Spain went into overkill, quite simply.
Will a Catexit from Spain result in a Catexit from the EU? If not, both Spain and Catalan would be part of the EU. As Catalan is now an automous part of Spain and the EU, it seems foolhardy and unnecessary for them to push for "independence ".
The police brutality in Barcelona was one of those moments of official violence which will change the course of history, like the Boston Tea Party in 1770. Before the police violence, Catalonian independence was an issue that divided the Catalonian electorate, and the most probable outcome was an enhanced autonomy for the region. Now there is no doubt that there is almost 100% support for independence. With its appalling, official attack on peaceful voters, Spain has been shown to be still a neo-Francoist state at its heart.
95
Police brutality was grossly misreported. Violence was a small part of the overall picture yesterday. Yet what you saw in Illinois is not the reality of what was happening in Barcelona. The media latches onto sensationalism and the most violent images are the small sampling that the world sees. While no one condones political violence, yesterday's scuffles were inevitable. People knew where to find confrontation yesterday and in many cases were the aggressors vs a three-prong police presence that didn't want conflict. Fortunately these incidents were outliers to an otherwise civil and peaceful, rainy day in Catalunya.
3
As there was 40 % who voted, I do not understand where you get that 100% of voters are for independence. That said, the spanish government handled this situation very stupidly.
4
Exactly. This went far past "bad optics" to outright proving the leave-Spain camp's point with malice to spare.
2
Balance of power in Catalonia will not change today, because its division along ethnic lines. The majority of population with Catalan origin are pro-independence, but they are less than 50% of the total. That's the reason they have not called up an early regional election; they know they can not get the majority of votes. That is why they have chosen this radical, almost revolutionary, way out of the law.
The economy is slowly growing, so populism will slowly diminish. Today was the day.
Now the Catalan ethnic minority will try to negotiate from its curren position in government. But, how to cater about the needs of the other part of Catalonia? Would the current Catalan government be willing, for instance, to provide some education in Spanish to the half of its population that have Spanish as their mother language.
Everyone knows how difficult is to deal with an ethnic populism. Let's see how Spanish political parties manage the fury of a bitter minority of near half of Catalonia without forgetting the other half.
43
Spoken like a true Francoist Castilian. Where are your statistics? The majority of the population of Catalonia is Catalan. Most of the large minority who speak Spanish do so due to the Francoist crushing of Catalan culture.
Dan Kravitz
There is nothing ethnic about Catalan independence. All Catalans were asked in the referendum whether they wanted to be part of an independent Republic, independently of their origin. I have not seen any fury in what you call "a minority of near half of Catalonia", but rather in the attacks of the Spanish police. And finally, it is interesting from the statistical point of view that you regard 50% as a minority.
Last night I saw video of the Police assaulting Catalan citizen who were trying to vote. They were beating them with clubs and trying to prevent them from entering poling stations.
Spain is a western country - why is this happening there. I know they don't want Catalonia to split off, but that is no excuse for clubbing people trying to vote. This is disgraceful. I am sure this action from Madrid will only make the Catalans more eager to split from Spain.
35
I remember the 1960's and 1970's when police in the US of A were beating black people and marchers in the protests of that era. I remember how hard it was (and still is) for black people to register and vote.
How soon we forget the past!
1
It is really sad that the Catalonians do not see that they are manipulated by power hungry politicians and Russians. The foolishness is immense, do they really think they will be able to maintain the same standard of living as they had when they were part of Spain? What cool-aid are they drinking? Russia is probably working everyone to the bone on their side to make this happen, as a fractured Europe will only benefit them and create chaos and discontent.
Please, people of Catalonia, do not be manipulated so easily! Being a citizen of a tiny country is not what it is made out to be. You'll forego many social benefits and a huge portion of the budget now will go towards the military. Spain is not under Franco anymore, you don't know how good you've got it until you lose it.
8
Angela Merkel needs to swoop in and put on Catalunya's pants. Confirmed by the EU in Brussels this morning, yesterday's vote was a joke. An hour before polls opened, Carles Puigdemont announced citizens could vote anywhere irregardless of registration. Catalan civil servants encouraged people to "vote" as many times as they wanted saying it was no problem; the same folks gleefully counted the ballots.
My father-in-law who's lived through Franco and taught Mariano Rajoy as a university professor says Puigdemont is a marionette for the pro-independence government. From college dropout to head of Catalunya's regional government, Mr. Puigdemont is the torchbearer.
The mood in Barcelona today is tense and uncertain. Last night, the evening ritual of making noise by banging pots, pans, and other utensils went up a few hundred decibels. Like something out of the Middle Ages, Catalans are fond of this popular protest called a cacerolazo or casserole.
As an attempt at levity this weekend, I designed the official Catalan independence ballot to check one of two boxes, the Osbourne bull silhouette in black versus a unicorn in color. I shared this ballot design with my Spanish family via what's app on Saturday. While the laugh was healthy, what Spain really needs is neither "Bull" nor "Unicorn" but rather dialogue.
17
Well, if the Spanish Government didn't act so heavy-fisted, the referendum would be more reflective of the real mood of Catalonians, and if there is no support for secession, there would be no problems at all. I guess the Government was not sure that final vote will be "no".
5
The referendum would never reflect Catalunya, because the only people who support the vote are pro-independence. No one is opposed to a legal, democratic vote but the referendums in their current guise are illegal. Rather than engage a discussion directed toward exploration and resolution of a problem, Catalan politicians play cat-and-mouse games.
5
Make it legal that all people of Catalonia could express their opinion.
I had no opinion on this at all until Spain decided to send the police to prevent people from expressing themselves. I still don't know if Catalan should be independent or not, but I do know that whoever ordered that should be contemplating their decision from the inside of a jail cell.
I will say that if my government did something like that, I would want my independence as quickly as possible just to be rid of them.
46
Unfortunate error. In the previous regional elections the secessionists were together in a single option that lost in number of votes reaching only 47%. In spite of that and thanks to the distribution of seats that favors more rural and backward zones, they have a small majority of 2 parliamentarians. That is, the Catalans have already democratically manifested against this option as they have done for years.
Now what has happened has been an attempt to break a democratic state by the force of violence, verbal and physical, to make other citizens, who do not agree with them, foreigners in our own land.
What would you do if in your homeland others did that to you?
5
If what you say is true, then there is even less justification for the national authorities to behave like this.
If the Catalonians didn't want independence, then just let them vote to prove it. The fact that the national government sent troops in to stop the vote pretty much proves that they thought a majority of Catalonians were going to support independence.
Again, I am not saying that I think Catalonia should be independent, I really do not know enough about the situation to have an opinion, but I do know that what the Spanish government did here was to solidify regional and international opinion against them. Blaming the Catalonians for this is not going to cut it as an excuse.
4
Uhh...Ferguson, MO. Berkeley, CA. May Day protest in LA. Michael- there are so many more examples of police brutality against peaceful protesters in the US. I am ok with jailing all those leaders, too. Less sure about secession.
3
The US Supreme Court ruled that no state could separate from the Union in a famous ruling, Texas v. White. The same has done with regard to Catalonia the Spanish Constitutional Court. Despite this ruling, the Government of Catalan autonomy, in breach of the norms and laws of its own parliament, called for a referendum of independence that the Spanish courts suspended. The Spanish Government has done nothing more than enforce the Law, as any other democratic government would do.
Catalan nationalists, mostly supremacists, have tried to use the demonstrations on the streets to achieve de facto independence and, opposing police action, to exploit the victimism that comes with having to use the police force in certain cases. Asa matter of fact, only about one-third of the Catalans want to separate from Spain. The results of this illegal referendum lack any guarantee: there was no valid electoral census, there was no independent supervisory authority, there were no intervenors at the polling stations, the regional media did not act with neutrality ... In the end, any citizen could vote several times at different polling stations and the votting boxes were moved inside and outside them without any control.
The Spanish Government has always been willing to dialogue with the nationalists but it has established the inviolability of national sovereignty, democratic procedures and solidarity between territories as inalienable points. The nationalists have refused to accept it.
26
As recent and future technologies impact where populations are concentrated we must modify methods of governance to ensure equal representation, giving states the appropriate number of representatives. Currently outcomes do not represent the vast majority who are urban and not as fearful of progressive change. I have no doubt that struggling democracies worldwide would benefit, including both Spain and the US. If representation is accurate then people don’t tend to revolt against their government.
1
As much as I love Catalonia and the Catalonians, this referendum was ill-advised. To confuse identification as a Catalan with the determination to become a separate state is to place emotional, identity-politics kind of need ahead of what is practical and level-headed.
A tiny state with its own ministers, military, diplomatic corps, education/university system, military, arts support, etc. --I can only imagine the taxes needed to support it all. It's true, the Spanish government didn't handle this well. But neither did the Catalonians.
108
A tiny state? Sure. A new state similar to Austria, Switzerland or Denmark (in terms of size and population), bigger and more populated than Ireland, with higher GDP than the EU average. Maybe it's not a good idea, but please, let us decide if it is or it is not. And please, do not support a goverment that sends its para-military troops to hit our grandparents just because they want to have their say. Millions of people following the same dream is not a legal matter, is a political and social problem that needs to be managed politically, not applying repression. Not in the 21st century. Not in Europe. Spain's democracy is very imperfect. There's not a real separation of powers. Why can't we have the same opportunities to decide just as the people from Scotland or from Qebec or from Norway (in 1905!!), among many others. Scotish had in front of them the british. Quebeckers talked to the canadians. Norwegians, with the swedish. Unfortunately, we have to deal with a different kind of people, so we need your help (just to prevent the demolition of human and fundamental rights in this little corner of the western world).
9
Yes, yes and yes! Thank you for this astute comment.
Catalonia would have no trouble supporting itself. Its population and square mileage are similar to Scandinavian countries. The fact is that the rest of Spain would suffer without Catalonia, because it has been bankrolling the rest of the country for years. The Spanish government is inept and the Spanish economy is hopelessly adrift. If nothing else, Catalonia is providing a needed wake-up call.
8
“We’ve shown our way of making politics and changing things is very different to that of Spain,” said Marti Feliu, 21, a history student at Barcelona University. “It’s our opportunity to create a different kind of country, even if we don’t yet know exactly how and when.” This says it all. Don Quijote lives, but he is useless without Sancho Panza. These college students need to learn to work through the system that, while putrid like most political systems of both left and right, requires common sense, maturity and hard work, not drugs and guitars.
29
Don Quixote wasn't much use even with Sancho Panza. Please actually read the Cervantes, or at least the plot description via Google.
2
"while putrid like most political systems of both left and right, requires common sense, maturity and hard work, not drugs and guitars."
Right. What they need is more of the same toxic capitalism and neo-liberal economic garbage shoved down their throat. With a dash of state sponsored violence. This is what has led to a pattern of popular uprisings in the west.
Takes maturity and hard work to see this.
4
The Spanish Interior Minister's comments about the role of the police is just a lie, as can be seen on any news program's video footage. What else can one expect from the neo-Falange gang that rules Spain. Will we have another Inquisition to root out Catalan independence?
The referendum vote could have been allowed to be held, but the results considered as non-binding and advisory by the Spanish government. Instead, they decided to act as though an armed insurrection was taking place, attacking people trying to exercise their democratic rights. The EU, as usual, seems to have nothing to say in support of people, as opposed to supporting national governments and corporations.
Spain is showing itself to be in the same league as Hungary and Poland, the Alabama and Mississippi of European federalism.
39
Would you approve of a referendum by Texas or California?
Why not both? Both were independent countries at one time. Did they surrender their rights to independence forever by joining the union?
3
Would you send in the national guard or army to stop it?
1
Great photos. Especially the courtyard by Alberto Estevez.
3
I honestly don't know which is worse, the political class in Madrid or Barcelona, but it certainly appears that Catalunya (which traditionally has been evenly split between pro- and anti-independence forces) has reached a point of no return. Things will get worse before they get better, while Rajoy in Madrid and Puigdemont in Barcelona will get farther and farther in over their heads.
1
People who disagree with our independence have it real simple;
they can go and live in Spain. It's a beautiful country.
4
Great definition of democracy, i.e., if you don't like it. leave. Whose independence is under discussion?
10
Civil war looks more than likely. Independence vote, at best an imperfect one, will provide fodder to those seeking independence and will test the resolve of central government to prevent the break up of the country. There will be few years of turmoil with guns and all from either side. Maximum autonomy should be offered and accepted by Catatonia.
2
Fortunately, it is illegal to own fire guns in the whole of Spain.
3
The Catalonian government's "war room" had been studying possible scenarios for their improbable secessionist gambit for months. They knew they needed blood to get sympathy abroad, and so Puigdemont and his strategists decided to pit regular citizens against the Spanish police, hoping for enough casualties to merit an international mediation. They will not get it. The lack of deaths during the failed vote is a blessing for Madrid and a curse for the secessionists.
32
It looks like the catalan government has been thinking about many things, meanwhile the Spanish government what has been doing? Maybe they should read Locke or Machiavelli and watch less soccer on TV.
When a government send 10.000 police, 2.000 of them volunteers, with the moto "go for them!" (for the catalans) with orders of doing anything against peaceful people it is clear for any observer than it's the spanish government that is looking for a violent clash. They wanted images of violent people and they found footages of violent police.
We are sad, not happy. What we wanted is to vote. It's so difficult to understand?
The free will of intelligent, open minded, forward thinking people must not be trampled by an ignorant, nationalist agenda that has only created pain and suffering for the Spanish people. The last scrap of 20th century fascism in Europe has lived way too long. Let's hope that the Catalan people can finally rid themselves of this scourge.
25
Hi Willi, The first sentence of your post could have easily applied to either side of this conflict. The populist, xenophobic tribal Catalans, or the authoritarian, anti-democratic Madrid. As a refugee from Franco's Spain, I (of course!) share the sentiments of your second sentence. However, there is no wool thick enough over my eyes to make me believe that Catalonia is all altruism and Madrid all fascism. Catalans have been afforded many, MANY liberties to serf-rule that other Spanish regions do not have. No one is taking away their right to teach in their language, or other cultural manifestations. They're just asked to ALSO INCLUDE children and citizens from other parts of Spain who live there: is that so TERRIBLY WRONG, that they feel they need to break away?
1
There is a good argument for Catalonia before the ECJ, in my opinion. The Spanish constitution states: “The constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards; it recognises and guarantees the right to self-government of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed and the solidarity among them all.”
Are Catalonians "Spanish"? Many I know in both Barcelona and Tarragona would say "no."
1
If all Catalans will feel solely Catalans and not Spanish, there will be not a problem. The issue is that Catalonia is split 50% pro independence and 50% against independence. That is the problem, how to please both sides
3
Catalans have been treated awfully by the rest of Spain for centuries. Spain has tried repeatedly to crush their culture and take much of their wealth. It is time to let them be free if that is their wish.
57
It's the richest region in Spain, so yeah, the "crush their culture and take much of their wealth" rings true. Personally I think it has a lot more to do with the fact that the Catalan nationalists in pariament wants their hands on that wealth for themselves. Woe to Catalans if they succeed.
9
That is not true at all. Catalans have been always part of Spain and they have been treated like any other. In fact the last 200 years to the Spanish economy is a defense of the Catalan economy against the economy other parts of Spain. Even the infamous Franco did that. Culturally with all the ups and downs in history that you want, many think that for the last 40 years they have been doing a cultural clearance against whatever they consider non Catalan. Next point?
3
What???!!! Do you know there is Catalan area North of the Pirinies? France forbiden any Catalan talking centuries ago. It seems should have done the same aparently. It would have a lot lets problems. Catalans North of the border are loyal to Paris. Not the same in the South Catalonia
3
Spain made a strong case for Catalan independence yesterday.
101
The Catalan government was surely hoping for a much stronger "case" --showcasing a few bodies to the international community would have been a lot more eloquent. That was their game.
3
This is ridiculous. Do we need more postage-sized countries in Europe? It'll only increase tribalism. And let's be honest, Spanish and Catalan culture are not SO different that they need to be different countries. I think the Catalans love to harp on the differences and ignore the centuries of shared heritage. Spain was made over centuries as an amalgamation of separate kingdoms and states, and they still speak slightly different dialects and languages. It's like imagine if Wessex in England or Yorkshire decided "you know what we have a different culture and heritage, although we've been part of England for more than 1,000 years... let's be our own tiny independent nation." It's just ridiculous! We're stronger together!
138
Catalan culture is very different than Spanish, but this is not the main reason why Catalunya wants independence. Historically it comes from a war 300 hundred years ago, economically we live big injustices that the Madrid government doesn't want to solve, we give 21% of the GDP and receive less than 12% in return. We are the autonomous community that pay more for education, infrastructures, health insurance, housing, and highest taxes. We have wanted to speak for years and no one has ever wanted to listen. There are a lot of reasons why we want to do this move, I could explain you lots, unfortunately I only have 1500 characters to reply your not well informed comment, but if you want to know a little more about this issue there are thousands of videos, web pages and even a nobel prize that states why does this happen and how better would this be if we had our own country.
4
"And let's be honest, Spanish and Catalan culture are not SO different that they need to be different countries."
That's for Catalans to decide. And they have decided that they do need to be a different country.
10
We are stronger together...in case we want to be together. By the way, similarities between the USA and Canada are, by far, stronger than similarities between Catalonia and the rest of Spain. Spain is not a Nation-State, is a State that gathers different nations. among them, Catalonia, The Basque Country and Galicia, with their own languages (not dialects), culture and their own specific laws. After Franco's death in 1975, the idea was to built a country that could shelter the different sensibilities, both political and territorial. Until 2000, more or less, a genuine effort to respect differences took place in Spain. Even the Constitutional Court ruled out many times in favour of Catalonia to defend their capacities in education, among other fields. But then, everything changed sharply. The rightist party won the spanish general elections with an absolute majority (this party recieves very litle support in Catalonia), and the idea of the "pluri-national" country died. Pressure to assimilate catalans to the castillian-like conception of Spain became enormous. Separation of powers vanished. Involution in all fields took place. We catalans simply were a disturbing problem. You can keep the opinion that nothing of this matters but it's sad to read the word "ridicolous". Our problem is that in front of us we have a goverment formed by inheritors of the dictatorship, instead of british or canadian people allowing Scotland or Quebec have their say.
4
The Catalans are being unreasonable and lack common sense. They have been brainwashed for years and are overly egocentric... they want to establish an exclusive Catalan state where they don't even have the majority...non-Catalans, other Spaniards who've lived in Catalonia for years are excluded. In an age where diversity and pluralism is a a unifying and solidifying force for a country they are promoting the opposite. They lack tolerance and have no idea how a "future"Catalonia would function in the world. They are too narrow minded to understand and accept a Catalonian, Spanish and European cultural identity.
54
Catalunya has never been a land of exclusion, to the contrary.
We want to establish a country that is fair, just, open, respected, tolerant and moral. What we lived yesterday in Catalunya has nothing to do with all these values, the other way around, yesterday all our rights as citizens were violated and oppressed.
Im Catalan and I am not narrow minded and neither my country is. We are just asking for something that is legitimate.
15
The outrageous police brutality which the Spanish riot control forces exhibited for the whole world to deplore is the most important story within the story of Catalonian political leaders' desire to seek independence from Spain. Watching defenceless civilians -- elderly people and young women, particularly -- shoved down staircases, struck mercilessly with truncheons, dragged by the hair-- all of this barbaric behaviour casts a dark shadow on the image of supposedly modern Spain and the reactionary regime of Rajoy.
Rajoy's denial of the 'occurrence' of this unilateral referendum is another certain sign of his regime's illegitimate rule over Spain as a whole. He plays with facts much like his ideological partner Donald Trump to suit his agenda, regardless of the soundness or not of his Catalonian adversaries' calls for independence.
I have now added Spain to a growing list of countries including Turkey and Egypt unworthy of my holiday plans. I am thoroughly disgusted with Madrid's complacency with violence and undisguised atavism for fascism in the year 2017.
10
What naive response. The Catalonian corrupt politicians got exactly what they wanted; misplaced "pity" and trivialization of the term "fascisim" by third party opinion, thus claim the moral high ground and "independence".
6
Re-read my statement : 'regardless of the soundness or not of his Catalonian adversaries' calls for independence'.
The neo-Falangists who brutalized these peaceful demonstrators acted wrongly -- a fact totally without connection to the Catalan question itself. Riot police during recent violent upheavals in London and in the housing projects of France were NEVER as gratuitously violent as the unabashed fascists who now show their true colours in Spain.
What if Rajoy sends troops to suppress the Catalonians? Is that a violation of the EU charter?
2
No, the "referendum" was. And any attempt against the territorial integrity of a member state.
1
Brexit, Trump, Catalonia. We're in the age of selfish myopic populism. Truly embarrassing times for the world.
31
So it is "grassroots democracy" when you like the outcome, and populism when you don't.
3
And ask yourself. Who benefits form a divided America and a divided Europe?
"In a statement, the European Commission — the executive arm of the bloc — called for “unity and stability,” but it showed no sign that it would reverse its position and intervene on behalf of supporters of independence."
This statement coupled with the unrealistic demands of the Europeans in regard to Brexit negotiations, finally shows the world what the European Union really is...
and that is an Empire.
Undemocratic, thuggish and arrogant this European Empire lacks legitimacy.
It is only a matter of when, not if, this 'political and economic club' eventually implodes.
3
Unreasonable demands of Brexit?
The UK voted itself back onto its island. That's their right, it is enshrined in the treaty. Market access henceforth isn't, and the UK will not stiff the EU on budgets it agreed to.
Catalonia is another matter. There is no constitutional right to secession at all. Catalonia already got a pass on a referendum in 2014. How much indulgence and how many tries at illegal consultation does its nationaliss feel it is entitled? More importantly, why should the EU give support to one?
Your emotional appeal against the rule of law is simple petulance, and the lunatics have taken over the asylum yet again.
6
Brexit and Catalonia are one and the same, if you can look beyond ideology.
Many in the United Kingdom see and distrust Brussels in the same fashion that many Catalonians see Madrid.
For both groups, solidarity in one manner or another has its limitations. In essence, sovereignty trumps ideology and self-determination is now a major driving force of Western politics.
The only lunatics around today, are those who do not see that the Great Economic Collapse of 2008 changed politics forever in the Western world.
2
It might be interesting to compare the Catalan independence movement with that in Quebec, where several referanda were held without the Canadian government attempting to obstruct the voting. Catalonia is almost certainly more economically viable as an independent state than Quebec, but would it be better off?
3
Having lived in Canada through much of that period, that included some uncharacteristic violence, I have been making comparisons, including that Pierre Trudeau was a much better strategic thinker than is Mariano Rajoy. Nothing conclusive at this time, though. At least there is no head of government from the "parent" country showing up to stir the flames with the equivalent of "Vive le Quebec libre."
"90% of Catalans....." etc. etc. Not so.
Although The Times doesn't repeat this latest media meme, the article omits one key point. Less than half of all registered voters voted. (There are 5.3 million voters of which 2.2 million voted.) So the abstainers can be counted as not caring one way or the other, right? Wrong. More than half of the electorate abstained because the referendum was ruled illegal both under Cataluñas "Estatut" (its autonomous constitution) and Spain's national constitution. Saying that a "majority" or 90% of Catalans voted for independence is like saying that a neighborhood voted to cut down all its trees because some guy on the block held a "referendum" in which all his friends participated. It really is as dumb as that.
The reasons some Catalans want to secede is not so dumb. Money. Catalunya pays 21% of Spain's national revenue and receives less back. (Analogous to California "supporting" Arkansas & Alabama.) Catalunya generates 20% of Spain's GNP and attracts most foreign investment. The supporters of the referendum think they can attract and keep more money for themselves if they don't have to any team-work with the rest of Spain.
By the way.... foreign investors and expat residents were allowed to vote in the referendum.
25
Well, it is not as if those Catalans who did not vote did so out of conviction. Barcelona and other cities looked like war zones. Spanish police was beating people standing to vote, stealing their ballots, breaking doors and they had been doing this for many days. And still millions defied brute force and voted. That is to be admired. Terrible move by Spain.
10
I wonder what the results of the vote would have been without a government crackdown. I would think when they decided to threaten everyone from coming out, that only the most staunch separatists would be willing to defy it - why would someone risk violence or imprisonment at the hand of the government to come out and vote in favor of the government's status quo? A peaceful vote would have yielded much more favorable results, from Madrid's perspective...
4
90% voted for separation in a referendum with gross irregularities from any objective analysis? Sounds like the results in elections organized by Castro, the URSS or China: "The Party wins (again) with 90% of the vote!"
But let's face it. The referendum was just a smoke screen to prepare the way, regardless of result, to the unilateral declaration of independence that will follow in the next few days. With the photos and videos showing a national police, dressed a la Darth Vader, repressing voters and walking away with ballot boxes, the independentists have received an invaluable propaganda gift that has basically sealed the deal.
At the very best, Madrid will have to negotiate a new, this time binding, referendum which, following yesterday's events, will have massive participation and will likely result in an objective win for the independentists.
5
Train’s left the station, no small thanks to an incredibly bold, shrewd, and visionary leader, albeit with funny haircut and unpronounceable name. Not to mention his equal and opposite in Madrid, bent on compounding mistake after mistake, and in general looking silly all around.
Mr. Puigdemont is playing every card so well, he’s destined not just to take Catalonia swiftly to independence, but become a major force in the EU thereafter. Which is why he’s asking the EU to wake up first and get moving on recognition. Which they will eventually, their current foot-dragging just a farce to give Rajoy time to wipe egg from face.
The UK has no such problem, thanks to Spain’s raising Gibraltar at every inopportune Brexit moment. Expect Madam May to make the usual noises but ultimately take a deep breath and make reassuring call to Mr. Puigdemont. No doubt, followed by his visit to 10 Downing Street. Expect Herr. Trump to do likewise, the only difference being, Mr. Puigdemont will have to call first and praise Trump to the skies. No problem.
So, welcome to the world Catalonia. Like your flag. Catch up on history later. Cheers.
6
The EU will never recognize Catalonia. Recognition is a pipe dream that the corrupt Catalonian politicians have tried to sell all around to the world. Nobody is buying it, especially logical, thinking Catalanes themselves.
Puigdemont is the one looking silly here.
3
To my relatives in Oviedo, Asturias (Spain), not only is the Catalan move for independence illegal under the present Spanish Constitution, but it also threatens the political order, not so long ago under the thumb of a dictator. A Times photo from the day of the "vote" shows a man carrying a photo of Franco.
4
I love the response of the federal government in Madrid - which is an attempt to appeal to legality as the all important aspect of this.
Legality is just things written on paper, a framework from which to base a society as long as the major constituent groups desire to remain united, which in this instance is clearly not the case.
The mistake the Catalan government made was allowing federal police to pour into the area, the local police should have been mobilized to block them far from the city centers. I suppose the violence is politically useful for the Independence movement, but I would hate to think that was an intentional political calculation made at the people's expense.
Madrid is like a spurned ex flailing about after a partner just wanted to discuss spending some time apart, in the most Democratic way possible - a vote.
They will be lucky to avoid civil war now, and since the only outcome of that would make Catalonia unprofitable for some time, it defeats the point of trying to hold on so tightly - it would just create a perpetual occupation of the region until they gain autonomy. This would cost even more money, cause civil unrest, and totally not be worth it.
The future of Earth is in more local, direct representation. We might lash regions together for economic or military purposes, but people want their local government to be accountable to them.
7
"Legality is just things written on paper, a framework from which to base a society as long as the major constituent groups desire to remain united, which in this instance is clearly not the case." However imperfect the laws are, to dismiss them as "just things written on paper" would lead to dissolution of almost human systems. This statement is incredibly naive.
4
The last civil war in Spain was only 80 years ago. Perhaps both Spaniards and Catalans will remember the suffering it caused and the long-term results before they would undertake something like that again.
It is not possible to consider as valid an illegal, improvised vote in which there was a complete absence of transparency, credible international observers, collective consensus about proceeding to the polling, verifiable procedural oversight, basic law & order. Far fewer than 50% of the populace voted. Criteria for participation were not publicly agreed. Furthermore, the highest judicial authorities in the national government declared this irregularly arranged 'referendum' to be illegal. There are many obvious reasons why self-serving politicians such as Puigdemont have a vested interest in positioning themselves as Supreme Overlords of Catalunya. Sensible, rational adults understand that incendiary rhetoric that inflames passions can easily lead to vast powers being amassed by demagogues & sham "patriots" who create chaos to further their own pecuniary interests & lust for power within the conditions of anarchy that they help to impose, by overthrowing normal laws & processes. Any intelligent young person can see that Spanish citizenship & EU membership opens many avenues to career success & personal fulfillment, that belonging to a smaller, monolingual, more closed & ideologically rigid society led by rabid "Catalan nationalists" simply will not match. Furthermore, those who today object that their taxes are being disbursed from Madrid may tomorrow find that Catalan Communists size all their property, instead. It happened before, not long ago, in Portugal. Be careful.
42
Exactly right. If this vote was any indication of how Catalans would rule themselves, they'll be in deep trouble for a long time.
3
I'd have a lot more sympathy for the Catalan independence movement if it had wide majority support and represented oppressed and downtrodden population. Truth is, it represents anything but.
Nevetheless, should independence become a fact, what would the response of the Catalan parliament to cantons and cities who disagree and decide their own right to self determination? Will they be allowed to go their own way or declared illegal? Given the hyperbolic accusations of the independence movement, I have grave doubts on how far this movement's democratic instincts lay beyond taking power for itself. In the face of vile comparisons to Franco, the EU must do nothing to recognise nor legitimise this nationalist organisation.
Best wishes, and best of luck to Catalan nationalists, but you certainly will not have my sympathies. You simply don't deserve them.
29
I would urge both Catalonia and Spain to look long and hard at the lessons of the American Civil War. We preserved the union, but the cost was horrific. The reverberations of that conflict echo through American life to this day.
10
Did you know that Spain had its own brutal civil war, from 1936 to 1939? That war gave rise to a military dictatorship that only ended in 1975. The Catalan language, cultural practices, and identity were systematically oppressed under that dictatorship in the name of Spanish unity, which was given a quasi sacred status. The fact is that Spanish unity has in the past and continues to be forged through violence and repression. The civil war and resulting dictatorship continues to haunt Spanish society. The horrendous violence exercised upon innocent people by the Guardia Civil, under direction from Madrid, points to the fact that Rajoy and his government are the ones who haven't learned the lessons from Spain's own civil war.
3
Soooooo... you think it would have been preferable for southern states to peacefully secede and continue slavery?
1
Granted that it was a difficult situation, but the central government did not handle it well and gave a lot of talking points to the opposition. What started as a selfish rejection of sharing funds with poor regions of Spain on the part of Catalonia, has exploded into an existential crisis for the Spanish state. The referendum is hardly legitimate, people were encouraged to vote more than once, minors of 16 were allowed to vote, voting took place in the streets without controlling eligibility, etc. More importantly, opponents of the referendum did not vote to avoid giving legitimacy to it. Catalonian separatists complain that the central government did not want to negotiate on the referendum, but of what good would have been the referendum unless Spain were willing to accept its results? Finally, 5.4 million people have the right to vote in Catalonia and this referendum, even accepting the doubtful figures mentioned, got 2.3 million votes. Anyhow, the future is not rosy and there are going to be months, if not years, of conflict and disturbances.
97
I could not agree more. The Catalonian government was not really interested in this straw vote (a repeat from the one held in 2014). Today, as the secessionists ask for international mediation, it seems clear it was this sort of aftermath what they were really after.
6
Madrid had to do something or we live in a lawless society. No police officer wanted to hurt anybody yesterday but scuffles were inevitable. I have a broken leg but went out to buy milk on crutches in the rain and saw long lines at two polling stations in Gràcia that were civil and peaceful. Unfortunately the world didn't get to see a lot of these images. Where the disturbances occurred, people went looking for and found confrontation. I feel bad for all three law enforcement arms, the Catalan Mossos, Spanish Guardia Civil, and local Police, who were in a no-win situation. The cops got a bad rap and the city wasn't half as militant as the images and videos that were spread around showed. Fortunately these were outlier incidents, but media grabs onto sensationalism and the nationalists spread it like wildfire.
3
@Hollis D and your corrupt politicians got exactly what they wanted. They knew from the outset that they would not win. They thus provoked law enforcement into confrontations, so they could claim oppression and thus "independence".
1