The approach to criminality should not be politicized. Rape is a felony, and the accusation of rape should be investigated by the competent authorities. We have a justice system that is equipped to determine guilt and determine the appropriate punishment. Colleges do not have the resources, the expertise and the legal foundation to do any of that. They should react to a guilty verdict against a student or faculty, but they should not be in the business of determining guilt. Colleges could (and probably should) ban alcohol and the unsupervised mingling of the sexes if the current assertion of widespread rape culture is true. That would be a pragmatic solution.
What do we call a man who gets hopelessly drunk at a bar in a crime-ridden neighborhood and who and stumbles home wearing a priceless watch and an expensive fur coat, and gets mugged?
Answer: A fool.
What do we call a woman who gets hopelessly drunk and leads an equally hopelessly drunk young man to her dorm room where they have sex?
Answer: A victim.
This doesn't compute.
22
i have no idea why colleges are inserting themselves into criminal investigations. at 18 (most freshmen) you are an adult. rape is a crime. let the police and existing criminal justice system handle it, thats why we have one. boggles my mind that some administrators are going to adjudicate on a criminal matter.
17
A thought experiment to change campus culture to be less supportive of rape:
The school teaches a clear policy of zero tolerance for non-consensual sex at freshman orientation. This includes clear standards for consent, such as, if a student is too alcohol-impaired to drive, the student is also too alcohol-impaired to GIVE OR RECEIVE consent for sex.
Someone develops a smartphone app--provided by the school--whereby both parties must document their consent by short video, which could also help document the fitness to give/receive consent. This record is preserved somewhere so that it remains private, but it can be accessed as evidence if/when a rape accusation is being investigated.
The young man thus protects himself from false accusations. If the sex act was not thus documented, the party who believes herself (or himself) to have been violated by a non-consensual sex act is assumed to be telling the truth.
Campus culture evolves so that--just as "Drinking and driving don't mix"--"Drinking and sex don't mix." And "Friends don't let friends have drunken sex" just like "Friends don't let friends drive drunk."
Anybody who drinks too much takes themselves out of the running, as far as "scoring" is concerned, until they are sober again. A good way to reverse the incentives and discourage dangerous and irresponsible drinking AND dangerous and irresponsible sex!
NOT PERFECT or foolproof, but a good step toward the cultural change that needs to happen!
8
Most men can never get rape and what it means to women. Most men can never get how the system dismisses and trivializes rape and women's experiences. It happened get over it, not so bad. Our culture has decided that women and their bodies need to be under the rule of men. Viagra vs birth control. Pope on abortion. Betsy DeVos. It's all just the same thing-second class citizenship.
14
Your correspondent, who had been, barefoot and "falling down drunk" on the way to her apartment, is amnesic for the sexual event, which, in her letter, she concluded, she knew occurred because of the deranged status of her clothes. There may have been other, definitive, proof of sexual intercourse of one type or another. Her letter, however, did not mention it. She appears to imply that she might have verbally consented to the event, in some "incapacitated" state, which fact would, she stated, invalidate her consent, had it, in fact, been given. She thus exonerates herself from the adverse encounter on legal grounds,
We know nothing more about any event in her apartment. We know nothing of any prior relationship or not with the male actor, save that he accompanied her home in her inebriated state, in which she could not walk unassisted, to her apartment.
The confused situation is indeed psychologically traumatizing and profoundly unfortunate. It is, however, more about an "alcohol culture" than about a "rape culture." This is a societal problem, extending to other mind-altering agents, and not a problem solely confined to some institutions of higher education.
The situation cannot be extrapolated to compel third parties to take an irreversible extralegal action, in fact to make a punitive, criminal, judgment, on the basis of anything, in my view, but evidence beyond a reasonable doubt.
Arthur Taub, MD PhD
Clinical Professor (ret.)
Yale U. Sch. Med.
31
Always a difficult discussion because automatically, someone is presumed innocent, and someone is presumed guilty.
Yet, there is this niggling point: how can two intoxicated individuals result in a pre-determination of only one being able to give consent and the other cannot give consent? Put it another way, if being intoxicated renders an individual unable to consent, then in the case of any sexual encounter, both individuals have been raped since *neither* can give consent (because both are intoxicated).
That is incoherent. Absurd.
So what seems to be the case is, when a male and a female are both intoxicated, the female is unable to give consent, yet the male - for some reason - is irrelevant in terms of consent. Apparently, the question of "consent" does not even apply to the male.
And apparently, the possibility of an intoxicated female actually giving consent is nullified because Society has already deemed her ability to consent nonexistent.
Yet the male, animals that they are, can only be guilty. Males cannot be raped apparently unless actually penetrated; males cannot make a "mistake" and call it a rape, because that is ridiculous. And what of the case where the intoxicated couple who have consensual sex and the female is fine with it, maybe gets pregnant, maybe gets married, happily? A marriage/family based on "rape"?
The male cannot be at fault by default.
The female cannot be innocent be default.
(BTW, "blacking out" is not unconscious.)
15
I have never understood Title IX when it comes to rape.
Rape is a violent crime, a felony. I would think that the police (the real police) and the criminal justice system would be the most obvious path forward.
Title IX could address issues of absences for participation in the criminal justice processes.
Frankly, perhaps a night in jail would be more sobering for these alleged rapists than a "peer mediation" (whatever that is...)
The faux justice of academia is not equipped to deliver criminal justice, especially for violent crimes/felonies. End of.
Title IX could deliver preventative programs aimed at the men would may decide to commit felonies. Have them blow a whistle when they think they might rape someone....
4
The woman who wrote the letter telling about how she was raped stated that she had no way of knowing whether she was passed out when the sexual act took place. She asks "What if I had said O.K.? I didn’t learn till later that incapacitated people can’t consent".
Now there are many aspects of the law in which whether a person is mentally incapacitated plays an important role, including whether they are guilty of certain crimes they committed when in that state. However under the common law that is the law applicable in every jurisdiction, a person who willfully puts themselves into that condition where they are mentally incapacitated by consuming copious amounts of alcohol or ingesting drugs is considered to have accepted responsibility for all their actions committed while and because they willfully put themselves in that state.
NYS Penal Law, Sex offenses; definitions of terms, Section 130.00 (6) states;
“Mentally incapacitated means that a person is rendered temporarily incapable of appraising or controlling his conduct owing to the influence of a narcotic or intoxicating substance administered to him without his consent, or to any other act committed upon him without his consent".
In other words if a person goes out and gets drunk and willfully has sex, they are not considered to be mentally incapacitated for the purpose of having been sexually assaulted because they could not give consent.
That is the law in the real world in regard to what constitutes sexual assault.
14
I am pleased that you published your friend’s account of her rape and the aftermath. It has bothered me too that sympathy lately has gone to the accused and not the victim. It bothers me that too often cases boil down to he said/she said, or he said/he said, or even she said/she said. I hear too many worries about ruining the boy's future but not the girl's. I hear too many remarks about “boys will be boys” or “the adolescent sexual urge is so strong it cannot be contained.” I tink the culture has allowed, even strengthened, those attitudes. There must be another way.
I think of gay men, whose sexual urges must be just as strong as their straight counterparts. Historically they have tread carefully when it came to sexual negotiation. To make a mistake could lead not just to rejection but to disaster. Straight men, particularly white straight men, seem less able to manage sexual negotiation. Sexual conquest is too often assumed as a right, and as a rite of passage. Well, the sexual encounter is not a right, it is a privilege. Maybe the course forward is to help young men learn how to negotiate rather than to force.
Wonder if anybody has ever thought of that aproach for nations . . .
4
There are insufficient facts in the friend's account to accurately assess culpability in her particular case. As she is quick to point out, an intoxicated person may be legally incapable of giving consent; however, such legal niceties do not end the inquiry into the relative causation and culpability of the parties.
The cause of the bruises and details of the inside out clothes are absent.
Was the male also so drunk he was incapable of ascertaining the intoxication of his companion? Was the male so intoxicated that his degree of "fault" should be de minimis in these "party" circumstances? Did the female, though drunk, actually encourage her companion to have sex? Or did she initiate the sex and rape the male?
We get it. Rape is bad. Surely, there is a middle road to protect the rights of all concerned, this friend's account is not particularly meaningful in any way much less suggest a middle road.
13
Rape is a crime. We have a criminal justice system to deal with crimes. It has real penalties (many years in jail) for the guilty, and real protections for the innocent accused.
The college "judicial systems" don't exist to punish the guilty (expulsion is hardly an appropriate punishment for a crime that is punished by long prison terms in the real criminal justice system). They exist to protect the college administration, not rape victims. They bully the victims to keep them from going to the police, thereby maintaining the fiction that the campus crime rate (that must be made public by the Cleary Act) is low.
3
“I didn’t know what had happened, but I did know that some part of me had died forever, and that I had been violated.”
This sounds very sad/bad but it does not sound like evidence of a serious crime. It sounds like bad decisions led to an unpleasant feeling that was attributed to a possible cause. How could a school (let alone a court w due process) be expected to take action on this. Doing so would immediately violate the basic principles and spirit of our legal and moral approach to law enforeeent. The idea that drunkenness makes every sexual situation into rape is simply not logical as it creates countless cases of "mutual raped" each day.
10
College administrators and faculty are being forced to function in very difficult circumstances without essential training and experience. Sexual assault is a crime and should be handled by the criminal law justice system. It's far from perfect and needs significant reform, but it's far fairer to victim and accused than trial by inexperienced novices incentivised by threat of institutional reputational damage or funding cutoff.
3
From the story: "there is nothing the law could do for me"
Yes there is. Rape is a crime. Those that commit that crime are prosecuted. Those that are found guilty are sent to prison.
If you have been raped, report the crime to a police officer, not a campus security guard or other university official.
There are literally tens of thousands of individuals in our prisons who arrived there via a guilty verdict for committing a sexual assault on another individual.
To say there is nothing the law can do is baloney.
2
Women have been known to take the lead in sexual activity from time to time. If one examines the physical evidence and declarations of the young woman in this case -- that she drank to blackout, has no recollection of what happened, let alone the details of sexual encounter, and has her shirt buttoned inside-out or a dress on inside out -- it leads to a discomfiting but not irrational conclusion. If there was indeed sexual contact between the female author and the young man, that conduct might have been initiated by the female author and encouraged by the author, potentially over the protests or non-affirmative consent of the partner. Or maybe there was no sexual contact at all. Likely? No. But certainly a logical interpretation, which would make the author's letter to Stephens a classic expression of reaction formation.
Young men and women: if you're going to use a mind-altering substance, let it be weed. Your judgment and inhibitions will be more or less intact, even if your time-space perception is not the same as when you're straight.
10
Men and women metabolize alcohol differently.
After three shots, a man can feel confident and daring.
And he will assume the woman feels the same. But more likely, she is on the verge of passing out. And it is natural if he does not KNOW this.
Feminists refuse to accept differences between men and women and they refuse to consider alcohol as factor.
But if we spoke more about alcohol, and (and this is the important part) explained to the men that the women do not feel what they feel, then the men might be more aware of engaging in self-restraint.
For in HIS eyes, both are equally drunk -- he just does not realize that it is not an equality but an inequality (which feminists are loathe to discuss). He just assumes she is as intoxicantly willing as he is.
6
Her insight that the problem of sexual assault is cultural and moral vs. merely legal is a breathtaking indictment of our society's degradation.
2
Rape is a serious crime.
We agree.
The problem is determining if a sexual encounter was consensual or not.
Suppose a male and female have voluntarily had a few drinks.
Neither is intoxicated. Maybe a little high.
The male suggests sex and the woman agrees.
They have sex.
Is this rape.
What BAC must the female have before she can not give consent.
How can the male know what her BAC is.
Must he give her a breathalyzer test.
There was a case at Columbia. A male and female were having voluntary vaginal intercourse and the male then asked for anal sex. That interaction took place. The male said it was consensual but the female said it was not consensual .Columbia investigated and said not rape.
I make no comment as to whether Columbia was correct.
3
I went to an all girls school and given the way I was raised and the information I was given, I could have been extremely naive. I think young women are often unaware of how dangerous men can be to them. Women don't usually seem to desire men in quite the way men want women. The way I explain it to my teenage daughter is that female sexuality can be like walking down the street wearing a million dollar diamond necklace. And you wouldn't do that. Obviously women have to walk down the street, though. Most civilized parts of the world understand this. The fact that women feel at risk is not the fault of men or civilization, it's just kind of a given. Our laws and urban planning sincerely try to keep women safe.
When young, naive women drink excessively and go off with unknown young men, who might be horrid predators, they are just putting themselves at so much risk. Telling bad men not to rape should stop them, but it won't. They've already been told. Thus women have to take care of ourselves.
Crafting laws that are so draconian that no young man can defend himself against an accusation is not the solution. Discouraging young people from drinking to excess might go a lot further.
10
Unfortunately, I think too many men are unaware of how potentially dangerous they can be to women as well.
5
There are special circumstances surrounding rape on campus that deserve special consideration.
These victims often know their attackers. They are forced to live on the same campus, eat in the same dining halls, attend the same classes, and, in some cases even live in the same student housing.
They are also forced to see these same perpetrators at parties, bars, social events, club and honorary society meetings; and to know that their friends, classmates, sorority sisters, and roommates are potentially victims of the same attacker.
The responses of universities, and of the Obama Department of Education was an attempt to address these special circumstances and to balance the needs of the victims with the rights of the accused.
The Trump administration wrongly refuses to accept that there is a need for special considerations of the circumstances of college life.
8
The author of the published letter of course gets right to the point: the main focus must be raising young men to believe the obvious truth that women are inviolate ends, not instrumental, sexual means. The truth that women are inviolate needs to be so ingrained that it dominates and subjugates sexual passions that urge the contrary. I'd wager that a lot of campus sexual assault is perpetrated by young men whom were you to ask whether women are inviolate or not would answer that women are inviolate. But their passions overtake their reason, abetted by alcohol. And that is a moral failure. The right is guilty of a lot of faults and a lot of hypocrisy. But the emphasis on character that the right (not the alt-right, mind you) embraces is correct. Good character, not law, will prevent secual assault.
3
I rode motorcycles for 15 years. I had the same rights on the road as those driving cars. Yet I was at inherently greater risk of injury or death because of the actions of those other drivers. If one of them failed to look in his mirror or simply ignored my presence and hit me, I'd have a legitimate cause of action in civil court for any injuries I'd incurred. If he was drunk he'd also be liable for a criminal act. Other riders I knew would often raise those points when arguing that they "should" be able to ride without concern because the car driver would be liable. I would usually agree with the facts of their argument but would always add that since I was the one more likely to be dead or injured I was going to take extra precautions like never riding my bike to a bar (because that significantly increased the likelihood of riding it back), not riding in the rain, and always wearing my helmet, regardless of how short the trip or hot the weather.
I knew I was at greater risk on my bike than those in cars and took precautions to lessen the threat posed by others, whether intentional (and criminal) or not. I valued my freedom to ride and enjoyed the thrill as well as the challenge of avoiding the "killers" out to get me.
My daughter "should" be able to enjoy her freedom in college but I hope I have instilled in her that the ultimate responsibility for mitigating risks rests with her and not on the hope that others will not act improperly or even criminally toward her.
11
You have a choice to ride a motorcycle.
I have no choice but to be a woman.
This difference is very important and ruins your analogy. Why on earth is basic logical reasoning so difficult for men who want to justify men's sexual assault?
There is no way that I can mitigate all risk that a man will make a poor choice and rape me unless I never go into spaces where men are. Do you think that's a fair burden to place on me? If you place the "ultimate responsibility" on your daughter, you're telling her that it's her fault if a man rapes her. That's not okay.
10
There is one and only one solution to this problem: we have to restore as normative in our culture, and pound into our young men, that there is one, and only one, appropriate setting for sexual expression: between a husband and wife in a stable marriage.
The minute we began breaking down this institutional norm, all the lines were redrawn in ways that made them impossibly hard to enforce.
Rape, of course, existed from time immemorial. But if there is a campus sexual assault "culture" now - and I don't question that there is - it's because in combination with binge drinking and our failure to expect colleges to act in loco parentis in protecting young women, it's only a hop, skip and jump from the hookup culture we have enabled.
5
I was in a monogamous relationship with my wife for 10 years prior to marrying her. I rather doubt myself unique in that regard. The solution is appropriate moral education that produces characters that find inappropriate sexual relationships to be distasteful and to be avoided rather than pleasant and to be pursued. Also, I'm going to take a wild swing and suggest that probably you would not have sex with your wife were she black out drunk? Is it really only an issue of being married or not?
4
“I didn’t know what had happened, but I did know that some part of me had died forever, and that I had been violated.” Putting aside the issue of high-negligence, “dying inside” from the effects of recurrent thoughts on a possibility which is a figment of sexual-reverse-engineering and left no other damages is either a malevolent libel or a result of an already highly fragile personality.
But the worst of it is the abuse and belittling of cases were women and men do suffer severe damages by being victims of brutality (including the sexual type) and as a result were left as physical and emotional wrecks, or wholly dead.
5
The enclosed comment by the advocates a false alternative: either we have innocent persons improperly "convicted" by campus tribunals, or we have open warfare on young women. Any crime of violence should be handled by the criminal justice system, where objective standards of evidence, cross-examinations, and appeals are available. The commentator says, "I have seen zero pieces from the center-right on the rights of sexual-assault victims. I have seen zero pieces that take the problem of sexual assault seriously." The news articles presented by the center-right (or any other political sector) are irrelevant to due process, a cornerstone of civil society. (I have seen zero articles from the center-left about Title IX abuses). Finally, the commentator says "I once blacked out drunk at a party and someone offered to walk me home." While every person deserves to be protected from harm, one should not bring on extra risk. And yes, I have a step-daughter in college.
4
The culture of drinking among US youth is an abomination I hated it when I was in college and I still hate it.
The culture of misogyny among American men is also an abomination. I hated it when I was younger and I hate it when I am older.
The culture of entitlement among the privileged, epitomized in fraternities, is also an abomination. I hated it when I was in school and I hate it from afar.
America seriously needs to take pause and self-reflect. We must improve, We must do better. Religious types will say the answer is more religion. I strongly disagree. The answer is better culture. Less violence, whether it be video games, sports, movies, or TV shows. Less tolerance of drinking as socially acceptable or even cool drug consumption. More peer to peer moral leadership.
All that being said, what exactly does your friend mean by her statement that Hillary Clinton was "a woman who had enabled a husband"?
12
Of course, rape is an awful crime yet might there be an adult out there so bold to suggest to girls that getting "blacked out drunk" is not really a good idea, that some men are indeed rapists, that alcohol lowers sexual inhibitions (for boys and girls), and that laws, police, and politically-correct colleges won't stop men from raping girls when they are "blacked out drunk"? Since when did rendering oneself "blacked out drunk" become socially-acceptably behavior? I know all too many women who were raped -- and not when they were "blacked out drunk" -- so I don't blame the victims of rape. But one hopes that someone will suggest to girls that not all men are knights in shining armor who will treat "blacked out drunk" girls like the "blacked out drunk" princesses they want to be. We saw a similar phenomenon in the Brock Turner case; girl ditches boyfriend to party with college boys, flirts with a guy (who was also drunk), gets blacked out drunk, and then can't remember the rest. So, who's going to give girls the message? "Djt" in the NYT Picks of these comments, that's who. I use the word "girls" intentionally. Adults take responsibility for their stupid behavior. Kudos, "Djt".
9
While I feel for the young woman in the editorial, I am not moved in any way, shape, or form, to abandon the right of ANYONE ACCUSED of ANY CRIME to Due Process. And, could someone please define for me what objective criteria constitute a "crisis"?
5
The basic assumption of this letter seems to be that one should be able to get blacked out drunk, with others of the opposite sex who are probably also blacked out drunk, and then feel entitled to protection from all the risks that come with being blacked out drunk among others who are blacked out drunk.
Rather than constructing kangaroo courts to put all the blame on the intoxicated male for his alleged participation in drunken behavior, why don't colleges acknowledge their own complicity in this folly?
The colleges put young men and women together in the same dorms, tolerate excessive drinking and drugs on campus, preach a politically correct doctrine of there being no real differences between men and women, and then appear shocked when alcohol lowers the inhibitions of post adolescents, and sex becomes the predominant theme.
7
Thank you for allowing this young woman to speak about her trauma. It is a shame that the rapes keep happening and next to nothing is being done to solve the problem.
Young women are going to have to be very careful about drinking and also about accepting any drinks from anyone in a party situation. It is unfortunate that in the year 2017 this is the case, but it is. I have a granddaughter entering college this year and I have had many talks with her about how to best take care of her safety. The rapist will walk away whether drunk or sober and the victim will carry the pain for the rest of her life.
1
Do college Student Health offices on college campuses even talk anymore about the dangers of drinking? Do they even talk about socializing safely on campus? Do they talk about the dangers of women drinking with men they don't know well, and the dangers of men trying to get women intoxicated or who put things into women's drinks?
If they don't, the question is, why not?
It they don't, I think I might have an understanding of why. One of the highest ranked posts explained that by not thinking about her safety, she handed over her power and made herself vulnerable. She didn't blame herself, she blamed her perpetrator.
But the comments were that she should be able to do what she wants, without the risk of assault. The language of "should" indicates a hope for an ideal which hasn't yet arrived.
There is reality and there is fantasy, idealism. I know I'd rather be on the side of reality. Men should not rape, but young women should be doing the best they can to avoid relinquishing their power and putting themselves into vulnerable positions. That is what I learned on my college campus years ago. That is what the women's magazines spoke of back then too.
But is it clear something has changed.
8
Of course, drinking to insensibility is a very bad idea, both for males and females. What I think has changed is the idea that women "ask for it" by making poor choices, or worse, by just trying to live independent lives. In former times, the shame, guilt and blame seemed to get redirected from the perpetrator back onto the woman. Society blamed the female victim not just for drinking, but for their clothing choices, for being out in society at night, or for just daring to venture out without a male escort. Any woman daring to accuse her rapist knew that she would be forced to endure the scorn and judgement of everyone from the judge on down to her friends and neighbors for daring to live the same life that men take for granted.
What is changing is society's realization that women should not be confined, restricted and punished because MEN commit crimes.
4
I in no way condone or wish to support rape. I find it reprehensible. But I think the real problem here has more to do with alcohol and the apparent inability of young people in the US to drink responsibly. If one plays with fire, one should expect to get burned at some point. If one drinks to the point of becoming comatose, one must not be surprised to experience unwanted consequences. At the universities where I've taught in Europe date rape has never appeared to be an issue. I do know however that it's a sport among many young people in Europe requiring little effort to get American exchange students unexperienced with alcohol drunk.
4
Funny how a drunk man can use drinking as an excuse to get away with assault, a felony, as in the Brock Turner case, while a drunk woman will be blamed for her own assault because of her drinking.
The courts and the media narrative in cases like Brock Turner's seems to perpetuate the cruel myth. Despite the law, that consent is not viable when parties are intoxicated, it seems the message is:
Women must stay sober at all times to protect themselves from blame for the potential criminal actions of others against them
but
Men may drink freely and should drink as the drinking itself will exonerate them from responsibility for any criminal choices they may make while drunk.
10
Rape is a crime. We have a criminal justice system to deal with crimes, hospitals to take rape kits, and victims' advocates to help the violated. What right (or capability) does a school have to assume these functions?
After graduation, students enter the world of employment. Would we allow Google or Microsoft to be judge and jury of assaults?
Have we learned nothing from the years of cover-up at Penn State?
5
As Koran says, "Avoid legal punishments as far as possible, and if there are any doubts in the case then use them, for it is better for a judge to err towards leniency than towards punishment". Conversely, Pol Pot made statements to the effect that "it is better that ten innocent men suffer than one guilty man escape".
Proving guilt is the bedrock of our judicial system. Proving innocence has never been required. The concept of doubt is built into our legal system, to make sure the innocent aren't wrongly punished. It may be messy and occasionally unfair, but it is our system. And women do lie about rape: Duke lacrosse, the recent UVA/Rolling Stone story, Juanita Broderick, Tawana Brawley. If one innocent person suffers, it poisons the well. Establishing an alternative process, that circumvents those concepts, is dangerous. No matter the alleged crime - just look at what's going on in Guantanamo.
2
Misdirection is at the root of this controversy.
Obama's effort was to prevent rape, the rules are still difficult, and the results are imperfect.
Trump and DeVos have a different priority. Trump has demonstrated a willful and deliberate vendetta against Obama. It has ranged between accusing Obama of violating the law and wiretapping his phone, to accusing the President's Intelligence officials of creating the "Russian Hoax". DeVos is utterly unqualified for her office as are Carson, Pruitt, and Perry to name a few. DeVos is a stooge and a public embarrassment. Together Trump and DeVos have provided a willingness to perpetrate crimes against victims if that will overturn Obama's efforts. This is just one more racist whistle to the racist Republican base, who are also misogynists.
Stephens is close to recognizing the betrayal of all women by printing this young woman's ordeal. She courageously revealed the complexity of due process and victim's rights. Stephens owes it to his friend to public ally weigh Obama's solution and DeVos's and provide readers with the outrageous contrast and insult to women that DeVos has instituted. Readers deserve to learn how these plans differ and which would protect them, their daughters, grand daughters, and friends.
4
Funny how a drunk man can use drinking as an excuse to get away with assault, a felony, as in the Brock Turner case and so many fraternity hazing crimes. The story is somehow more sympathetic because the “kid(s)” were drunk, as though they are sympathetic victims themselves because they didn't know any better. While a drunk woman will always be blamed because of her drinking rather than finding our protection for her as a vulnerable victim.
The courts and the media's narrative in cases like Brock Turner's seem to perpetuate this cruel myth, despite the law which states that consent is not viable when parties are intoxicated.
It seems the message is:
Women must stay sober at all tims to try to protect themselves physically and to protect themselves from blame for the potential criminal actions of others against them.
But, men may drink freely and should drink as the drinking itself will not only embolden them but exonerate them from responsibility for criminal choices they may make while drunk.
How would men, the media and courts reply in a world where men had to fear assault and blame by others if they drank?
For example, when a drunk, homeless man is assaulted, the media and courts seem to understand that he is 100% a victim, that he is not complicit in the crime, that the criminal assault was by a bully taking advantage.
What gives?
56
I ask the opposite side of the question. If both parties are drunk, why is it assumed that the male is the criminal and the female the victim? Neither was capable of giving consent, both had sexual relations with a person incapable of giving legal consent, yet the male is guilty of a crime and the female is not. How is this just?
What if both parties were to be tried for sexual assault? Would that not be a more equitable course of action?
6
Rape is a horrible crime.
That is not the issue.
We are really debating the question.
Is it more important that 20 guilty go free rather than one innocent person be convicted.
Those favoring use of preponderance to determine guilt are willing to allow more innocent people to be judged guilty so that less guilty people remain unpunished.
It is the same question with capital punishment. Supporters of the death penalty know that innocent people have been executed but they believe that in order to execute vicious criminals we must accept that innocent people will be executed.
How do we decrease sexual assault on campuses.
All cases should be reported to the police.
Have trained forensic investigators who can gather physical evidence, DNA sexual fluids etc.
Emphasize that it is stupid to abuse alcohol. Do people have a right to get drunk.
Yes.
But why put yourself in a vulnerable position.
I have the right to pull out a wad of bills on the subway and wave them around but I am an idiot to do that.
College dorms with coed floors are asking for trouble. You have young people [especially frosh] away from home with new freedoms which many are unable to cope with.
I will be attacked for this column.
I repeat rape is a horrible crime but so are murder and armed robbery etc.
The solution is not to lessen standards for guilt for each of these crimes..
Better gathering of physical evidence by trained cops can increase rate of convictions of guilty and protect innocent.
9
As a prosecutor, I taught my children that they were in the best position to maximize (not ensure) their safety by the choices they made, and that to expect the world to protect them if they were blotto was to invite trouble.
I agree with this commentator. Even with good will and all the resources of the criminal justice system, rape cases are challenging. He said/she said when one or both are alcohol or drug impaired and there is no independent evidence of what happened ... how does anyone know what happened? Proof is not a luxury, it is the bedrock of decision-making.
Having said that, the Brock Turner case is Exhibit 1 proving that at least one judge in California has not come to terms with the reality and horror of rape. But doing away with due process is not the answer. And college administrators certainly are in no position to be fact-finders.
People lie, have regrets and shade the truth to fit their narratives. That's life. Systems have to account for that, so the criminal justice system, flawed as it is, is the best place for these cases. But as a human system, it serves up rough justice, not perfect justice. Even when perpetrators are caught, convicted and properly sentenced, victims are left to rebuild their lives. Justice is only a blunt instrument, and cold comfort to a life upended by crime.
7
I grew up at a conservative time in a very conservative culture. While I knew how unwanted pregnancies happened -- it wasn't until I was a college sophomore and took a class that I finally got a thorough education on reproductive biology. College was in a "dry" state and but it didn't stop me from nearly being raped. I was a good girl raised to be nice but woefully naive and unprepared to recognize situations where my safety was at put at risk by seemingly nice guys intent on getting what they wanted and big enough to overpower me. I'm grateful I could talk my way out of these situations but they shouldn't have happened in the first place.
13
College administration isn't criminal court. Part of their job is disciplining students for behavior that discredits the college. The maximum penalty is expulsion. Why is this function being treated like criminal prosecution? College administrators can't convict students of a crime or jail them. Why is this a due process and constitutional rights issue? If sexual assault is a "brutal reality of campus life" the rights of the accused have trumped the pursuit of justice too long.
Non-violent male on female rape is hard to prosecute. The woman's sex life gets raked over in court and the defense can argue that a sexually active woman is no victim. If it was date rape, she went on the date - did she consent and repent? It's reckless to get incapacitated due to drugs and drink. Getting raped while incapacitated is a horrible, horrible punishment. But without a witness it's her word against his and she was dead drunk. The Obama Administration's guidance for dealing with sexual assault is a game changer for female students who are raped. Rapists can be disciplined and expelled on the basis of a preponderance of evidence (the standard in civil cases).
False accusations? Where's the payoff? The worst the accuser can do if she works hard at it is get her target expelled. An epidemic of false accusations is as likely as millions voting illegally.
The epidemic of false accusers is like the epidemic of voter fraud and all the criminal refugees entering the USA.
13
You are trivializing rape.
You have to make up your mind. Either it is a serious wrong or it is a infraction of the college's rules -- like disrupting or obstructing any speaker invited to appear on the campus by the University or disrupting the recruitment activity of a recruiter who is legitimately on campus .
If you think that "non-violent rape" is on a par with those infractions, then I agree that may be handled by the college's disciplinary procedures.
But if you think it is a serious event, and one that should and will stigmatize the accused for the rest of his life, then it belongs in the courts.
Btw, courts do not permit the accuser's sex life to be raked over.
2
As a 68 year old woman, rape victim, and doctor I have come to the biased opinion that there are two types of people:
Violent people and women.
11
Men need to have this hammered home to them: no one is entitled to sex. No matter how aroused you are, you are not entitled to sex. Sex is not essential to you. You will not get sick, suffer injury, or die if you do not have sex. Men are completely responsible for their own behavior. It does not matter what a woman is wearing, or if she is wearing anything at all, or how inebriated she is: men must not assault her. Period. And if you do, then you deserve prosecution and punishment. Period.
22
I read this article and the comments with what has become a standard dismay at how completely this issue has been politicised to the point where rational discussion is virtually impossible.
I am a man whose life has been destroyed by a wrongful conviction for rape.
So let's start with the - I'm approximating - 30% of women who will not, under any circumstances, believe a man who says he has been wrongfully accused, let alone convicted, of rape. I get this number from various surveys I have read.
What can you say about such people?
Then let's move on to people like the woman who wrote this letter. She says she "learned" that intoxicated women "can't consent". Is that the law now? So are we saying that all heterosexual men from now have to accept that if a girl who has been drinking does consent, they can still expect a rape accusation if the girl wakes up in the morning and changes her mind (as happened in my case)?
The Times published a piece just this week about the insanity of the treatment of sexual offenders due to a completely specious piece of writing in a popular psychology magazine, which invented a recidivism rate 76% higher than responsible research would have generated.
There isn't space here for me to write all I want to write. My basic message is that rape is not a "feminist" issue. All men who are accused of rape have a mother, and probably many other women in their lives. Wrongfully destroy a man's life with a rape allegation and many women suffer too.
13
So yes, some boys have been kicked out of college unjustly, or put through a bad system and been traumatized by it. But my rapist walks free. Many others do as well. What can be done for the next girl who wakes up with her clothes inside out and her world ripped apart?
In one paragraph, the young woman asks one good question and suggests another good question. The other good question that should be asked and answered at the same time as the first question is this: What can be done for the next [boy} kicked out of college unjustly, or put through a bad system and been traumatized by it?
The answer to both questions is access to the courts of law for either wronged party.
6
If a women was drinking, blacked out, and then found herself with a kitchen knife and covered in blood without remembering what actually happened should she report herself to the police about a possible crime or be off the hook because she does not remember anything?
12
If both people were drunk, then he wouldn't have known what he was doing either. No? Of course it's horrible what happened to her. But how is that necessarily rape? Wouldn't there have to be a conscious intent on the part of the rapist? And then wouldn't he have to be sober for that? It's even possible that when this was happening that she said yes. She said that she didn't learn until later that incapacitated people can't give consent. Maybe he didn't know that either. Of course, this indicates terrible judgement on his part. But is it a crime?
5
Yes, it is a crime.
3
Are you really unsure about whether you should have sex with an incapacitated person? Is this REALLY a question for you?
That's very troubling.
Consider refraining from interacting with others until you know you can control yourself. Take responsibility.
6
Rape needs to stop getting used as the plot to sell movies and news stories, but needs to be looked at as a serious issue that takes accountability of the pain rape causes victims. I experienced an assault just a mile down the road from my college campus where I still attend from a man in the army that is supposed to fight to protect young 18 year old girls like me and our freedom. By having my freedom taken away from someone sworn to protect me is heartbreaking and emotional damaging. What am I supposed to do about the credits lost and the emotional turmoil I experienced in the mental hospital because I wanted to kill myself from feeling so devalued? Rape breaks people. That is why rape is used in warfare. It tears countries apart, so how can we be so naive to think it cannot tear teenage and young adult women apart? Those that experience rape can attest that they are not concerned about the rights of the accused nearly as much as the rights they had to not be sexually violated that were infringed upon by their rapists.
14
I read this column and realized only at the end that I had not taken a normal breath while I was absorbed with this woman's story. Nearly every woman I know has had an experience of sexual assault while a college student. How many men have female friends who have experienced assault? Do they even ask about it? It seems Mr. Stephens did not know his friend had been raped until she wrote in reaction to his column. Maybe if we talked about it more often, more men would realize how common it is. Let's speak up and let them know.
12
You can't make men realize how common rape is by telling stories that don't involve rape.
This woman was not raped or assaulted, period. She doesn't know what happened. She doesn't know if there was any sexual contact at all. She doesn't know if she initiated it (which is different from consenting, by the way). Just calling something assault doesn't make it so.
5
Let's talk about it, sure. But there's no point doing that unless we start being honest with one another. Unavoidably, that means not using the term "sexual assault," which has been dumbed down beyond recognition by "rape crisis advocates." opportunistic politicians and government bureaucrats. To gin up the numbers, they have lumped together wildly different experiences under the rubric of "sexual assault" or "rape" in order to inflame public opinion. The result, as the article points out, is "an epidemic that does not exist." SEE Callie Marie Rennison, "Privilege, Among Rape Victims," NYT, Dec. 21, 2014.
2
Expecting a re-hash of Bret's earlier column last week on this subject, I'd planned on either not commenting on this one or simply including the link to my earlier response, which I didn't believe I could improve upon (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/08/opinion/betsy-devos-title-iv.html?com....
But it's obviously a different column this time, one that seeks to parse broader issues.
There are three issues here that Bret's young friend highlights, whether she intends to or not; and not just one. The first is that the culture of binge-drinking to blackout inebriation that occurs all too frequently on campuses has consequences, and those consequences accrue to ALL parties. If the young man who raped the girl, who most probably was drunk as well, is identified, arrested and indicted for rape, his life could be ruined -- forget about mere expulsion. For her the consequence is all too graphically described by her -- she regains consciousness having been raped. To suggest that all blame must accrue to the drunken rapist and none to the drunken co-ed probably doesn't pass the smell test. BOTH are to blame for being drunk and in a situation where a rape might occur -- expecting a wildly drunken boy-man to exercise civilized restraint in such a state is irrational. Solution for this specific instance: don't binge-drink to inebriation; and every time you do (ALL participants), expect that there well could be very serious consequences beyond a mere hangover.
3
Second is the issue of why campus police and administrations are involved at all when a serious crime of violence such as rape is alleged. This is a matter for the professional police, not for cop wannabes, and for a justice system that as well as it can seeks to balance the need for justice against individual rights and due process. Our states should require that when a charge of violent crime is leveled, police must be contacted, that they take over completely and that campus administrations stay the heck out. There is NO justification for campus police to be materially involved other than a self-interested one that seeks to protect the school from adverse publicity -- and administrations have no business expelling anyone before a charge of "guilty" is heard in a court of law unless the evidence of guilt is overwhelming.
Finally, our society doesn't deal well with rape. In a legitimate effort to respect individual rights and due process, an onus of proof is placed on the woman that can be both difficult to satisfy and deeply traumatic to pursue. Somehow, we need to do better. But whatever that better means is, it can't assume that the occasional innocent accused is destroyed as the price we pay for appropriately punishing the majority of the guilty so as to make the process less traumatic for the woman.
My profound sympathies to Bret's young friend. What can be done for the next girl? Press the message: don't get drunk in school and pal around with male drunks.
5
Two points: 1. As a guy who once attended college, I can attest that i managed to get blackout drunk on numerous occasions without ever once fearing my safety, or that I might "irrationally" rape someone in my inebriated state. Why? For the same reason I wasn't afraid I was going to murder someone - because much like murder, the notion of consent is built into my very moral fiber.
We should expect nothing less of young men. Repeat after me: when a man rapes a woman, it is never the woman's fault. No matter how much alcohol is involved.
It's my general feeling that women should be free to drink as much as they choose, without an overabundance of fear of being subjected to sexual assault, just like I was.
2. The implication here is that colleges have no mechanism for enforcing their code of conduct outside what's provable by strict criminal standards? I agree that rape is a serious crime and the criminal proceedings should be investigated and handled by the courts. But expulsion (at worst) from an institution isn't a criminal conviction. Hence, colleges and universities tend to lean on the standard of evidence needed for civil proceedings. Let's not discount the continuing damage to the victim when the inquests get a false negative - I imagine running across your rapist on the way to class to be fairly traumatic.
6
Everything she writes is true. Yet , she offers no solution.
In the absence of evidence, how do you prove sexual assault?
Are we going to change our basic principles?
Rape is an awful crime, it should be investigated and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
I would remind everyone of the duke lacrosse case. Those young men survived only because they had the money and resources to prove their accuser was a liar.
And , their lives were nearly deastroyed.
An entire campus and professors assumed the accuser was telling the truth. Those professors never apologized.
Rape is a terrible crime. Wrongly accusing someone of rape, and destroying their lives is just as bad.
The solution is to follow the rule of law, period.
6
You've hit on a good point; the most publicized examples of false rape charges are from incidents that involve men with the means to fight the charges. How many poor black men are in jail, because they were forced to accept a plea bargain in a rape case by a public defender? Emmett Till was lynched, because of unverified claims of sexually assaulting a white woman, who later recanted. His punishment was far worse than being kicked out of school, yet the concept is the same.
1
College campuses should be dry. Period. There's no reason for this drinking. It only leads to problems.
Also, why can't the local police deal with crimes like rape? It seems completely reasonable that they should do so.
7
Seriously, I've never seen such short shrift given to the hallowed principle of due process. Lowering the bar to make an accusation just makes it easier to accuse, and the lack of fair and equitable procedures leave a poisonous taint on every accusation.
7
" I once blacked out drunk at a party and someone offered to walk me home. I don’t remember what happened after that, but when I woke up my clothes were on inside out. "
A lot of readers will assume the writer was unconscious. Not the case. "Blackout drunk" means that you were drunk in a way that caused memory impairment, not drunk in a way that caused unconsciousness. The difference is significant: people who are blackout drunk may be verbally fluent, behaviorally capable, and make choices. Drinking to blackness does not at all mean drinking to pass out. It means, very specifically, drinking to the point that you don't remember what you did. It is very unsafe, and very preventable. Were you intoxicated and behaviorally impaired? Yes, absolutely.
Was it clear to those around you that you were incapable of making a rational decision? No, not at all. Especially if they had been drinking, too.
What the writer describes is, in my opinion, a tragedy. It could initially have been avoided, but once the initial choices were made the unfortunate outcome could not be prevented.
Please, people, if you are going out for heavy drinking, bring someone along who is not drinking and who will watch out for you. To have a sexual encounter that you do not remember is sad. To have a sexual encounter that may have been non-consensual is more sad. To have a sexual encounter that was actually non-consensual is tragic.
10
Why is she so convinced she was raped? Did they even have sex? It is unfathomable to me that a person can say I don't know what happened but I know I was raped.
All the other stuff that seems to occupy this woman -- the issue of consent while incapacitated, or the proper burden of proof -- is really secondary to the question of whether there was even a sexual encounter.
What if the man had in fact taken stock of the situation, realized that an incapacitated woman can't consent, and asked her to put her clothes back on? Drunk people put their clothes on inside out sometimes. How does anyone know that he didn't do exactly what he was expected to do under the circumstances? Something is very wrong when virtuous conduct cannot be distinguished from vicious.
14
bw: "Drunk people put their clothes on inside out sometimes."
Even sober people sometimes put their clothes on wrong. Indeed, I regularly wear tee-shirts inside-out, because they are more comfortable that way.
I assume you're a male. You may not realize that it's common for women can tell if they had sex the night before. Especially if they were very drunk and therefore, likely not very physically aroused. (This effect of alcohol happens to women too, not just men)
So, I apologize if this is graphic, but if a man woke up, after being led home drunk by another man, with his clothes askew and his bottom sore, would anyone be asking "how do you know anything even happened? Are you sure you didn't say yes?"
It's astounding to see how many people cast doubt on this woman's story. Campus rape is a complex issue for sure, and I believe there are many situations when a woman may feel violated and the man believes in his heart of hearts that full consent was given. This may be such a situation, or it may be a situation where a man preyed on a woman who could not defend herself. We don't know; perhaps no one knows but the man involved.
But to doubt the basic facts of the woman's story, and to doubt her own knowledge of herself .... I guess that's a tradition as old as rape itself and I shouldn't be surprised.
9
Rape is horrible and the victims suffer mightily. But I still don't see how or why a group of professors and college administrators are expected to make any kind of ruling on rape. Plagerism, yes. But rape is a felony and should be handled by the police. The sooner the better as evidence can be collected. Believing in due process is not a pro-rape stance. How did this become a partisan issue?
7
While I have great sympathy for the correspondent -- it is terrible to feel violated no matter the circumstances -- I question her assertion that she was raped. Unless she omitted crucial details from her account, she has no basis to assert that the man in question knew that she did not want to have sex. Alcohol lowers inhibitions. Black out drinking lowers them even more. Based on her account she doesn't know for sure that she didn't want to have sex in the actual moment because she doesn't remember that moment. She did not describe injuries from resisting sex. So whence the allegation of rape? As the law stands, there is no requirement for affirmative consent in sexual encounters. And the expectation of male chivalry -- being a gentleman in the presence of a drunken woman -- fell by the wayside a while ago. (That wasn't all bad, nor was it all good.) If she didn't want sex and the man didn't know that, it wasn't rape. As a practical matter, it is up to the individual to ensure her well-being and bodily integrity by taking steps to avoid this kind of situation. Without in any way diminishing the harm caused by such regretted encounters, they should not be compared to violent rape.
14
Sexual assault is a crime; making false accusations is a crime.
In theory, a jury trial can decide appropriately either or both issues.
Let the courts do their jobs.
3
For those who say adult women just shouldn't drink in potentially unsafe circumstances, you do know that women are raped when they aren't drunk, too, right? Alcohol is the number one date rape drug, of course, so regarding what someone posted about lowering the legal drinking age to 18, that won't do anything but increase the number of rape survivors. Focusing on (in this case) young women and alcohol, campus justice and due process, etc., ignores the widespread and very real problem that some men rape, those who do tend to be repeat rapists, and as a society we don't have a clue on how to really make them stop.
4
Male and female sexual responses are different enough that it has lead to attitudes which excuse behaviors which amount to forcing women who are not agreeable to having sex but who act friendly to being accused of setting themselves up. The fact is that rape is driven by a psychological urge to dominate and control not a well stimulated libido as is often believed. Men who take advantage of their dates are just acting out aggression motivated by anger not lust. In a college environment where a victim and her perpetrator may have to cross paths many times, there needs to be methods for separating them. Where the evidence is sufficient for indictment, there needs to be legal processes brought to bear, criminal and civil. Where it's a case of he said she said, a record needs to be established and any further incidents recorded, and efforts should be made to keep parties from having to interact unless they both agree otherwise. If a person happens to develop a record of similar encounters with similar behaviors, there should be made a more careful investigation and possibly intervention by professionals.
2
"The fact is that rape is driven by a psychological urge to dominate and control not a well stimulated libido as is often believed."
Could you please cite evidence to back up this claim. It may well be true, but I've never seen any documented evidence supporting this statement.
1
Boys and girls raised on internet porn. Young people trying to please. Popularity is overrated, but try to tell that to the young me, years ago? I don't have the answer, but I do know supervision is needed.
5
OK, by why the phrasing "her rapist" ... "my rapist"?
Makes it sound as though women are the agents of this behavior.
Looking forward to your considered response, Mr. Stephens. Publishing her story exhibits empathy, but nothing more. You enjoy being the critic of existing policy, but you've yet to offer up anything other than indirect empathy for victims of campus rape. DeVos takes us back to a time that is arguably worse than now for the victims.
9
I suggest she reads Camille Paglia's advice to young women who get drunk and put themselves at risk. Paglia, a real feminist.
14
No, she's not.
And believe me, the boys will take away the Patriarchy Points they've awarded you for being a Cool Girl(tm) and toeing the line when it's convenient for them.
4
Not only do rapists rape, they too sometimes rob their victims and others of their first amendment right.
3
Misogynists stand by each other. Learn to identify them, clichés and all.
8
Lower the drinking age to 18. Then kids will learn their limits while they're in high school and with their longtime friends and living in their parents' homes. It will also allow college women to buy their own drinks and have their own parties instead of going to frat houses.
Blacking out is often a sign of alcoholism. If you have a drinking problem, address it as soon as possible.
Not every bad thing can be prevented. But some can be prevented.
7
When they try to silence you, that is when you need to scream!
7
This essay is so on target - Mr. Stephens, you have some real work to do.
8
They will try to accuse the victim or anyone who speaks up of jealousy, madness, maliciousness, rascism.
5
A young woman I know drank to excess at college. Did the people with her rape her? Steal her money or jewelry? Leave her to sleep it off and maybe die of alcohol poisoning? No. They called 911 and she was taken to the hospital. That's how it should happen.
13
Once you've been associated with an unconvicted rapist, you become fair game.
2
Rapists rob their victims of their free spirit.
7
And false accusers deprive their victims of their liberty and their reputations.
3
The sociopathic rapists don't care about the sex. Instead they just want to destroy your soul. Learn to recognize their manipulative behavior.
4
So you believe men are raping women, not for pleasure, but to destroy their souls?
1
The assumptions at work in your story leave me puzzled. If a drunk individual cannot consent, and yet is not absolved of responsibility for actions taken while impaired -- and if the "boy" who took you home that night was drunk himself (as is commonly the case in these incidents) -- then aren't you a rapist, too?
Even if you don't know whether he was drunk or not, does it not give you nightmares to know that you likely committed rape?
Given your standards of consent, it seems that there are actually two urgent imperatives against getting blind drunk on campus: one largely practical, one largely moral. Yes, sobriety prevents you from being impaired enough to *suffer* the most common types of campus sexual assault, but it also prevents you from being so impaired that you become willing to *commit* sexual assault yourself.
16
She was unconscious. And sadly, sobriety is not a defense against campus rape.
2
Alex:
She was not unconscious. She (barely) walked home. We only know that she did not remember what had happened.
4
First, kudo's to this woman for living through this and being brave enough to tell her tale. And kudo's to Stephens for publishing the letter in its entirety - even though it arguably detracts from his objective of seeking to reform campus rape adjudication. (By the way, this point applies more broadly. We may not see real compromise among our legislators. But I don't see anything wrong with recognizing when the other side has a point. For example, I agree that conservatives - of which I am one - need to come up with a better answer to inequality than a "rising tide lifts all boats". )
Let's try to clarify the cognitive dissonance. I don't think many people would disagree that the woman in this story was, in fact, raped. Where emotions rise, however, is deciding how to discern whether a given situation fits the parameters of what is clearly rape or sexual assault. It doesn't help the "Title IX" side of things to suggest that due process should be thrown out or that women should simply be believed. This occurs nowhere else in our criminal justice system - even for such heinous acts as murder or kidnapping.
What we need are guidelines that help young adults navigate what is and what is not permitted. But they need to be realistic. For example, the CA "yes means yes" statute where any alcohol means non-consent and therefore rape - is just setting men up as de facto criminals.
3
Title IX is not the criminal justice system, which is where these cases should be adjudicated.
3
Your advice is great.. but the assumption that she was in fact raped relies on the very issue being put before those who want to better protect students on campus..
She says she may well have said yes.. but was later told that if she was wasted she was raped. If the guy too was drunk and she said yes then did she rape him?
This is very complicated and it deserves exactly what is happeming in DC// Regulatory hearings with public input and discernment..
This is how we start to fix this.. with actual laws based on public input and then ecucating students that drinking into blackout can put you in danger.
There is absolutely no contradiction to educating college students re the danger of binge drinking and consequences and also saying that all students are responsible for their behavior since drunks make bad decisions.. amd also that two drunk players the same "game" ( which is actually what hookupsex is) are equally responsible for their behavior..
Oh and PA do those who want to crack down on male students also want to crack down on LGBT students and students with autism who miss subltle cues, and minority students who are more likely to be accused by the way than frat boys, and many who cannot pay to defend themselves.. them what
3
Rapists aren't just jocks. Subversive indie types too fit the bill sometimes.
3
How would one distinguish this woman's case from a similar case where consent had been given, but then the woman had second thoughts - perhaps because the guy wasn't interested in her anymore - so she convinces herself that she didn't really consent to sex?
That's a tough one - one way or another someone is going to be treated unfairly.
7
To all of the people who think "if only women didn't drink so much they wouldn't get raped" I invite you to go to The Huffington Post (www.huffingtonpost.com) and read "Hundreds of Miles Apart, 2 Rape Survivors Talk of Trauma and Healing." Neither of these young women were drinking when they got raped in college, but they got raped anyway. They did everything they were supposed to. Went to the police, filed charges. One man got a slap on the wrist and the kidnapper rapist got off completely. Even one of the detectives said that in the 12 or 14 years he'd been interviewing rape survivors, he'd only seen one conviction. These men will rape again and again and again because they know they can get away with it. Rape will not end until men quit raping and men won't quit raping until society makes them stop. What women drink or wear won't stop rape.
27
@ Julia Gray: "What women drink or wear won't stop rape."
This is the reddest of herrings. What I and many other posters maintain, is that women in general, and young women in college particularly, must be their own best friends by taking their own personal safety seriously. Be vigilant, be smart.
3
You think it is simply a question of society deciding to make men quit raping? Why do you think society would have any more success making rape stop than it has had at making murder, mugging, embezzlement, and assault stop?
3
More than 35 years ago I got extremely intoxicated at a college party and was offered a ride back to my dorm by a superficial male acquaintance. The next thing that I remembered was ending up in his dorm room, not mine, with him trying to take my clothes off and expressing his desire to have sex. I was sober enough to get out of there, but not to find my own dorm and spent the night under a bush.
What I gained from that experience was the wisdom to never put myself in the position of compromising my own ability to take care of myself by intoxication. Both of us were male but I don't think that changes the lesson in any way. If I had been too drunk to get out of there and been "raped" I would have had no recourse whatsoever. What would have happened to a male student 35 years ago who accused another male, whose room he had voluntarily entered, of homosexual rape while he was too drunk to give consent? What would happen now? It is a terrible thing to happen to people but there is no good solution other than prevention and the best prevention is maintenance of a reasonable degree of sobriety. My father had taught me a two drink rule when in public and I followed it evermore after.
19
Weather you're quiet and shy or flirtatious, you're a target.
4
When both people are drunk, why does it still fall to the woman to prevent rape?. Guys are incapacitated and can't help themselves?. In other words, given enough booze, men will rape. In what world is this tolerated? I am sure some are falsely accused, and that is regrettable. But the toxic male as dominant social structure must change or we will not have a solution.
9
Sounds like intoxicated women can't help themselves - hence the protection of not being able to give consent when intoxicated.
3
This young woman's detailing of her rape and the encounter makes me question the cultural imperative that allows young men, while drunk, to assume they may have intercourse with a drunk woman even though it is the farthest act of love-making and literally a kind of masturbation with a different receptacle. There's no emotional interaction whatsoever. Most men when they reach puberty and are able to masturbate and ejaculate, find that immensely pleasurable and truly worth repeating--as often as possible. And their fantasies, if heterosexual, include a female partner, acquiescent and pleased with the proceedings. Perhaps, a young man who learned about sex through other means is less able to process those desires in a healthy fashion. A middle-school teacher friend once told me of a student who was struggling in school because of difficulties at home. When seen by the school psychologists, it was learned that he lived in a trailer with his unmarried parents. He shared their bedroom. After they assumed he was asleep, they would have intercourse, and he was enough awake that he saw the act as his father brutalizing his mother. His attitude towards sex was obviously affected and hurtfully so. I don't understand rape. I can't comprehend forcing sex on someone who doesn't want to enjoy me as well. And perhaps rape is the only way that some guys can have intercourse. Assault does not equal love-making.
4
What a sad world we live in when women have to be careful about how much they drink at parties and to be even more careful about a "friend" offering to drop them home from a party. Even more sadly, the US President can hardly be seen as a role model for young men. Rape is clearly a problem and all women should be supported by men to speak out and seek redress whenever they are abused. An incredibly well written and balanced piece by a young woman who would be entitled to be very angry and emotional about her shocking experience. Most men stand by you.
9
Would the simplest answer to this is that ALL possible felonies go immediately to the local law enforcement authority? The idea of ''handling these things inside'' was dreamed up to protect colleges themselves.
Obviously, that idea isn't working. So, let's take everything IMMEDIATELY to people funded and trained to find real crime and the truly innocent. I tire of our constantly re-inventing the wheel.
6
We need to ban alcohol on campus. Not easy, but it will solve most of the problem.
Adjudicating guilt after the fact doesn't undo the rape, or its consequences.
Alcohol is illegal prior to age 21, so we can start there. But the best solution is to ban or seriously restrict it at just a about all campus-related activities, especially at fraternities.
3
" In college, I once blacked out drunk at a party and someone offered to walk me home."
I am sorry but I am not able to see how she has a right to send a man to prison and ruin his life. For THAT is what Bret Stephens is asking for.
And it is sad that a man is so uncaring about the rights of other men.
3
My heart goes out to this young women. What happened to her is horrible and yes, the perpetrator should be held accountable. But I can't help thinking that college women should take more responsibility for their safety by NOT binge drinking until they blackout. If you don't remember what happened (or even who was responsible), how can you expect the authorities to take action?
8
I can't help but think you feel it is the woman's role to prevent rape. Men can't help themselves. Yes, less drinking and more thinking, by BOTH sexes.
4
I wish that more effort would be made to tell the story of men who get raped by other men, like I was, as a young man on campus, decades ago. There was no vocabulary, or opportunity, to tell anyone what had really happened to me the night of a devastating physical attack, on a campus that was way out in front in providing resources for women who suffered the same fate as I had. I had no concept of what had been taken from me that night, or that I would never, ever get it back, and that I would never be able to form healthy relationships as a result. Thirty years later, only a few trusted people know what really happened to me that night. It would be great if me and other men like me could see our stories in print too, to help bring down the wall of shame that engulfs us
7
I'm so sorry this happened to you. Sexual assault of males absolutely needs to be discussed, both to raise awareness and support victims.
1
What a horrific experience and aftermath for this young woman to have gone through, born of an interaction between a dangerous ambiguity in what comprises consent, and commonplace dangerous ignorance about the effects of extreme amounts of alcohol.
1. Ambiguous Consent: We still have a "No means No" standard of consent. When "only a clear Yes means Yes," then any not-Yes is perforce a No.
2. Ignorance about Alcohol-Induced Blackout: Often quite different from the complete loss of consciousness that occurs when fainting or when incurring a strong blow to the head, in an alcohol-induced blackout, people can appear functional and conversational, though not laying down memories or making sober judgment calls. (In most conversation, memory for the last two minutes is plenty.) Absent surreptitious dosing with rohypnol or the like, intoxication blackout is self-inflicted incapacitation not easily detected by an observer.
The young woman is completely correct that blacked-out, incapacitated people can't consent; AND unless the young man was trained to administer a mental status exam, e.g., I'm going to name three objects and ask you to tell me what they are five minutes from now, he can't assess that she's incapacitated, and that even any Yes is still not Yes.
They can both easily be not guilty.
Like the young woman, I'm at a loss for any straightforward, after the fact remedy. Education--practical, cultural and moral--before the fact is all I can think of.
10
File a report. Get their name (and various spellings of it) in the system. If they're repeat offenders, you will have helped another victim by having done so.
2
As a father of two daughters, one in college today, one teaching on a major campus, I want to fully embrace this woman's position.
But I'm confused. By her own admission, one possible (probable?) accurate interpretation of events is that she and a boy, both way too drunk to know exactly what they were doing, had sex without protest or any resistance. Then both continued to drink and 'blacked out' -- forgot what happened under the influence of too much booze. Now, certainly that is reckless, unsafe and unwise behavior on everybody's part. And I have drilled my son that he is never to take advantage of a female who has been heavily drinking, and should avoid heavy drinking himself because it impairs judgment to the point that he might not recognize what is taking advantage.
But under some plausible scenarios of what happened that night, is the boy really that much more accountable than the girl? Is it rape rather than stupid, unsafe sex? My wife shares my thoughts on this, by the way, so if I'm a callous woman hater, so is she.
23
Thank you for publishing her letter. As I faculty member, I have heard first-hand accounts from several students who were assaulted. I have listened to the anguish my college-age child whose friend was raped, a woman he couldn't persuade to report it to either the police or the college because she was convinced her parents would make her withdraw from school––the decimation of her dream.
When you have heard from these students, when you know multiple cases that have *never even been reported,* the way conservatives opine of the topic can bring one to despair. The misery of many students is not only disbelieved or discounted; it is erased in favor of a political weapon to try to stigmatize feminists and liberals for their supposed ideological extremism. All while offering nothing practical to try to reduce the number of assaults. Do these conservatives ever wonder what that sounds like to women and men who have been raped?
Can we not have a reasonable discussion about the best policies for this difficult question without changing the subject into liberal overreach or the boogie man of campus authoritarianism?
74
You need to understand that there is a world of difference between a school deciding if an accused rapist can continue to attend the school - a civil matter - and a court of law, a criminal matter.
5
Thank you Mr. Stephens for publishing this account. It is very intelligent and very sad.
There seem to be a number of readers' comments that suggest that the victim being drunk means an assailant is somehow "off the hook" for behaving criminally. As an aside, the writer doesn't say that the perpetrator was drunk, just that he had been drinking.
If the perpetrator had stolen the writer's laptop while she was drunk, and told everyone that this girl said that he could have it, would that be ok? If she didn't remember offering him her laptop, and he said she did, would he still get to keep it? If she didn't explicitly tell him NOT to take it, since she was passed out, does that mean he can take whatever he wants? No, that would be considered theft.
What is wrong with our world that the standards for decency seem to be so much lower when it comes to rape and sexual assault than for other crimes?
9
The key difference is that people rarely give other people, particularly casual acquaintances met at parties, their valuable possessions like laptops, even when drunk, whereas they often have consensual sex with such people, particularly in the context of "hook-up culture" and drunken parties.
5
There cannot be justice as long as innocent people are punished while guilty people escape all accountability.
The presumption of innocence in our legal system is a recognition that when the state accuses and the accused must prove themselves to be innocent, a lot of innocent people who happen not to be liked by those in authority can be the victim of malicious prosecutions. We cannot alter the criminal law to eliminate the presumption of innocence because the consequences are known to be unacceptable.
When it comes to date rape on campuses, perhaps when there is insufficient evidence to support an indictment for rape or sex-assault but the claim that sex without consent took place continues to be asserted that the incident be investigated and recorded to the end of determining whether it may be repeated unless some remedial actions are taken like counseling.
1
A certain percentage of the population has predatory tendencies. It would be convenient if we could test for this and either modify their impulses or isolate them from potential victims. Another percentage of the population has low self-esteem and hopes to gain acceptance by public self-incapacitation with alcohol. It would be convenient if we could help them to feel better and avoid becoming victims of predators. Until the science of psychology finds ways to neutralize these tendencies, the only solution is much, much tighter control of both groups.
3
Yes, put the low self esteem group back in the kitchen. They never should have been let out.
I can not emphasize more the peace of mind I found when having learned the term 'gaslight'.
3
This is awful -- and it's also why due process is needed. The apparent equivalence the survivor assumes between Trump and Hillary Clinton is telling. He bragged about sexual assault. And she? She"enabled" her husband to DO what he's been accused of doing. The survivor assumes Bill Clinton's guilt and holds Hillary Clinton responsible -- either for knowing that he assaulted women or in spite of not knowing it. Sentence first, trial afterwards.
5
An excellent, thoughtful piece that takes into account both sides of a truly difficult issue. Yes, due process is a right of the accused but victims also have a right to be heard and believed.
8
body-cams on all college students.. and presidents
4
What will it take to STOP the RAPE CULTURE? I was raped in college, so was my daughter. We were both intimidated into not prosecuting. How do I ENSURE that my granddaughter won't be raped in college? Is this part of the price FEMALES pay to get an education?!?
6
You blame us for rape. We tell you and you ignore us. It's our fault. You blame us when we are abused. We tell you and you ignore us. "why don't you just leave"? is what we hear. "Just get a restraining order" is what we hear. We warn you about these men. Then, we tell them no. We stand up . A woman was shot and killed as well as 8 of her friends this week. She said no and stood up and now she's dead. She warned you. We warn you. Then you wonder why we don't have casual conversations or won't go out with you. Women in this country have to be on guard ALL THE TIME. This is how it works. This proves my theory that the greatest threat to women is men. Men, want to change this? Police each other. Women tend to protect and warn other women. Men cheer each other on and deny that they are abusers.
67
Aimee, you summed it up perfectly. Thank you so much.
In college, I once blacked out drunk at a party and someone offered to walk me home.
Let's start the discussion right there, if we're going to have a deep dive in campus sexual abuse.
Let's start the discussion right there, if we're going to have a deep dive in campus sexual abuse.
29
Peg is right - we need to teach boys not to rape sober or intoxicated women. Let's start the discussion right there. Well said Peg!
6
You victim blaming here? What's being falling down drunk have to do with rape??
2
We should start there because naturally, the consequence for getting very drunk is being raped and without legal recourse. THIS is rape culture, blaming the victim.
5
I spent a lots of nights drunk & alone with guys who'd also been drinking, in college and really throughout my 20s. Sometimes fully clothed talking drunkenly, sometimes unclothed in beds making out.
I've never been raped. Why? Not because I didn't get drunk, or didn't go home with guys, or didn't entertain drunk guys.
I didn't get raped because the dozens of men & young men I was with did not rape. Men are perfectly capable of being drunk, being amorous with a naked woman, and NOT raping her.
Rape stops with stopping rapists and criticizing what THEY do - not the people they choose to rape.
I've never been raped. Why? Not because I didn't get drunk, or didn't go home with guys, or didn't entertain drunk guys.
I didn't get raped because the dozens of men & young men I was with did not rape. Men are perfectly capable of being drunk, being amorous with a naked woman, and NOT raping her.
Rape stops with stopping rapists and criticizing what THEY do - not the people they choose to rape.
44
Or maybe you were, but didn't realize it, because the perpetrator didn't put your clothes on inside out?
That seems to be the only evidence the letter writer has that tipped her off...
That seems to be the only evidence the letter writer has that tipped her off...
2
Do you people understand that women can usually tell when they've had sex/someone has had sex with them?
Are you so desperate to find a flaw in this woman's story that you didn't consider that maybe she just left out some of the gory details for your consideration?
Are you so desperate to find a flaw in this woman's story that you didn't consider that maybe she just left out some of the gory details for your consideration?
3
I am 63 years old and was gang-raped when I was a college freshman on campus. I didn't drink or take drugs but it happened and there was no one I felt I could turn to. I've survived but it is something that pops up in my mind from time to time. I guess I shouldn't have gone to the party...
25
Wait. Don't you mean "sexual assault is a brutal reality of modern campus life, abetted in too many instances by RAPE CULTURE." instead of "binge drinking?"
I have an 18 year old son. I assure you that he is never going to commit sexual assault regardless of how much PBR he swills.
The problem isn't beer; the problem is toxic masculinity and a deep and pernicious misogyny that seeks to blame women for the disgusting behavior of men.
I have an 18 year old son. I assure you that he is never going to commit sexual assault regardless of how much PBR he swills.
The problem isn't beer; the problem is toxic masculinity and a deep and pernicious misogyny that seeks to blame women for the disgusting behavior of men.
76
I certainly hope you educate your 18 year old son about the current definitions of sexual assault or harrassment on campus and the fact that his drinking any amount of alcohol is irrelevant. If he makes a bad decision to sleep with a young woman who too has been drinking who even may have said yes every step of the way ( a la affirmative consent ) and may have been the aggressor in bed he may very well be accused of sexual assault. Just as the author of the letter above says, she may well have said yes but since she can't remember and was intoxicated she is not responsible at all for the encounter and in fact has just been raped--under campus sexual assault rules. Any boy who sleeps with a girl who has been drinking is a rapist in waiting.. And that is the discussion nobody will have.
8
Judy,
Anyone's child is capable of anything
whether they are on drugs or drunk or both.
Anyone's child is capable of anything
whether they are on drugs or drunk or both.
3
When attending college - in the late '60s and early '70s - I always monitored my drinking at parties to make sure that I never passed out or lost control. I taught my daughter to do the same thing. In my day, I had many friends, as did my daughter when she was in school, and neither of us ever felt that excessive drinking would make our college experiences more enjoyable or fun, even when at parties. That being said - and I, in NO way, condone rape or sexual assault - I don't understand why so many women allow themselves to become drunk enough to pass out or lose control when partying. Whatever happened to the concept of self preservation? I don't walk across a busy intersection when the light is green, I don't stick my fingers in a blender when it's turned on, I don't wear shorts and a T-shirt when it's below freezing outside. Why would I not exert the same rules of self preservation when I'm drinking? I still feel that sexual offenders and rapists should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law - even when such a crime is committed on a school campus - but I have never understood why women continuously put themselves in harm's way. I believe in tougher laws, but until men change, I will never allow myself to be taken advantage of by deliberately drinking until I am in a stupor or worse; my need for self preservation far outweighs my desire to self destruct by drinking too much!
23
Nancy: "I always monitored my drinking at parties to make sure that I never passed out or lost control."
How did you do that in practical terms? Did you count drinks? Time your drinking? Leave at a predetermined time? Have a designated driver/monitor?
BTW, there are portable breath alcohol testers on Amazon. Those would provide the ideal way to monitor one's drinking.
How did you do that in practical terms? Did you count drinks? Time your drinking? Leave at a predetermined time? Have a designated driver/monitor?
BTW, there are portable breath alcohol testers on Amazon. Those would provide the ideal way to monitor one's drinking.
1
"I don't walk across a busy intersection when the light is green,"
Men are not vehicles who, due to the laws of physics, may not be able to stop before hurting you.
"I don't stick my fingers in a blender when it's turned on,"
Men are not machines who cannot decide to stop before hurting you.
"I don't wear shorts and a T-shirt when it's below freezing outside"
Men are not weather patterns who cannot decide to warm up before hurting you.
"I have never understood why women continuously put themselves in harm's way"
Men are not "harm's way;" some, likely most men, never harm or rape women.
Men are people. Men have autonomy. Men make decisions. They are not machines guided by the rules of physics. They are not weather patterns. They are not animals. That is the difference. If you disagree with me, then clearly it is MEN who we should keep locked up and behind bars, or at least away from alcohol, and tightly regulated, because it appears that they are incapable of refraining from hurting women. Sounds like a good solution to me.
There is no way that a woman can live her life (much less fully and autonomously) by "keeping themselves out of harm's way" -- i.e., away from men.
Stop victim blaming.
Men are not vehicles who, due to the laws of physics, may not be able to stop before hurting you.
"I don't stick my fingers in a blender when it's turned on,"
Men are not machines who cannot decide to stop before hurting you.
"I don't wear shorts and a T-shirt when it's below freezing outside"
Men are not weather patterns who cannot decide to warm up before hurting you.
"I have never understood why women continuously put themselves in harm's way"
Men are not "harm's way;" some, likely most men, never harm or rape women.
Men are people. Men have autonomy. Men make decisions. They are not machines guided by the rules of physics. They are not weather patterns. They are not animals. That is the difference. If you disagree with me, then clearly it is MEN who we should keep locked up and behind bars, or at least away from alcohol, and tightly regulated, because it appears that they are incapable of refraining from hurting women. Sounds like a good solution to me.
There is no way that a woman can live her life (much less fully and autonomously) by "keeping themselves out of harm's way" -- i.e., away from men.
Stop victim blaming.
9
You have no way of knowing whether or not your daughter ever got "that drunk" in college. I tried to teach my girls safety techniques as well. Get your own drink. Never put your drink down. Stay with your squad. Don't leave anyone alone.
BUT EVEN MORE IMPORTANTLY I taught my son that unconsciousness isn't consent. That drunk people aren't OK to have sex with. That he doesn't have a right to sex with anyone, at any time because he wants to. Period.
No women - even drunk women - ever deserve to be raped. And that is *is* what you are suggesting, you know that, right?
BUT EVEN MORE IMPORTANTLY I taught my son that unconsciousness isn't consent. That drunk people aren't OK to have sex with. That he doesn't have a right to sex with anyone, at any time because he wants to. Period.
No women - even drunk women - ever deserve to be raped. And that is *is* what you are suggesting, you know that, right?
3
I wonder if most college rapists are "center-right"?
I wonder if a disproportionate number of college rapes occur at or begin at fraternity parties?
I wonder how much we could cut the number of college rapes by reporting all of them to the police before calling any college office?
I wonder how much we could cut the number of college rapes by requiring a security guard at every fraternity party?
And I wonder why a conservative columnist can't write his own column when the topic requires empathy for women, rather than publish a letter written by a woman reader?
I wonder if a disproportionate number of college rapes occur at or begin at fraternity parties?
I wonder how much we could cut the number of college rapes by reporting all of them to the police before calling any college office?
I wonder how much we could cut the number of college rapes by requiring a security guard at every fraternity party?
And I wonder why a conservative columnist can't write his own column when the topic requires empathy for women, rather than publish a letter written by a woman reader?
55
The author deserves sympathy for her experience, but none for her contentions. The idea that anyone is “soft” on sexual assault is absurd.
The author’s case presents precisely the ambiguous facts which makes for hard decisions. Assume her partner was in the same state as she: which one is guilty of the rape, when neither is capable of consent? We hear only one side from the author; might it be that the asserted rapist just as passionately, and just as persuasively, believes that what occurred – assuming he remembers more of it than does the author – was entirely consensual. What if she HAD said “OK” – to whit, “affirmative consent”, only to contend, now, after the fact, that she was too wasted to know what she was doing. If both partners are similarly tanked, why is it the man who has to suffer the (criminal) consequences? Apparently, being drunk is no excuse for him, but it is for you.
It is not clear that you were raped, although you passionately believe it; it looks more like ex post facto regret. Your “rapist” walks free because you didn’t accuse him. And he never got a chance to tell his side of the story.
Sex with someone who is passed out is rape, albeit difficult to prove; but sex between two similarly inebriated people is more problematic, as if neither can consent, then both, under standards of gender equality, are equally culpable. If HE awoke next to you, screamed, and accused YOU of rape, how would you defend yourself against that accusation?
32
Brilliant synopsis of this young woman's dilemma. She had to be "taught" that she was raped because she was tanked. Of course she felt horrified by what happened. But even she realizes that she may well have said YES! And if she did, why is it his fault for her bad decision? Did they perhaps rape each other? Regret does not equal rape. The murky definitions and hookup culture are actually the biggest threat to victims. If everything is rape, then nothing is rape and they are less likely to be believed. Moreover, if all girls are blameless for their risky behavior and it's consequences then they will continue to put themselves in harms way and when they leave the campus bubble open themselves to sexual violence by predators that make frat guys look like babies and potential physical assault or murder as happens all too often to the naive 20-somethings that move to the big city following graduation.
9
100% agree. And I say this as someone who has been assaulted.
7
Bret, I am so disappointed. Your correspondent does not seem to know whether she was unconscious or blacked out. If she was blacked out, it is possible that she consented and does not remember doing so. That is what makes her quandary so difficult and so dangerous to innocent young men.
25
If a young woman gets blackout drunk and gets behind the wheel of a car and injures herself in an accident, does she not bear responsibility for her injuries?
Yes, I realize I'm equating men with machines in this analogy, but it behooves adult women to take responsibility for their own safety.
If that fact that she was too intoxicated to consent somehow absolves her of any responsibility in this scenario, then it would logically follow that the similar intoxication level of her rapist should absolve him of responsibility as well.
That shouldn't be the case, of course. Just as we should apply pressure to young men to learn the responsibilities of sexually ethical behavior, we must apply a similar pressure to young women to learn the empowering responsibilities of self-preservation.
We should no more forgive a rapist than we should perpetuate an infantilzing view of young women which portrays them in perpetual victimhood, in which they lack sufficient agency to safeguard their own well-being.
117
You are wrong.
When you compare men to machines, you take away their agency and their responsibility for their actions. Women who get drunk aren't responsible for the choices men make. Are you implying that, as the amount of alcohol in my blood rises, I gain greater control over a man's decision to rape me? That I make him more likely to rape me? Seems to me that the only determining factor of whether a I'm raped is whether a man decides to rape me.
When you place the blame onto women, you are by definition excusing men. You can't teach men that it is their responsibility not to rape women while simultaneously saying that it's a woman's fault if she's drunk.
It's not empowering to tell women that they can't fully participate in their lives because of men's bad behavior.
91
"Women who get drunk aren't responsible for the choices men make." That's certainly true. But the opposite is true also. Men are not responsible for the choices women make when they drink. If a woman is blacked out, that's a different story. But alcohol has been known since time immortal to lower inhibitions - in both genders. If the result is a woman not just consenting but actively participating in the sexual act - and then regretting it the next day, that is not rape !
You talk about empowering women. Well part of empowering is taking responsibility for the decisions you make - both good ones and bad ones. If a man takes that power away from you with date rape drugs or violence, that's a different story. But we're getting to the point where a normal drunken encounter followed by the woman doing the "walk of shame" in the same cocktail dress she was wearing the previous night - is considered rape. It's not. It's just bad judgement - on the part of both participants !!
5
@ C's Daughter: "Are you implying that, as the amount of alcohol in my blood rises, I gain greater control over a man's decision to rape me?"
I think you know this is not the implication and you miss the point entirely. Bottom line is, a "determining factor" in a woman's general well being is that she take an active role in securing her own safety. Need it be said that drinking to the point of black out is not a course of action to yield that result?
2
I think every allegation of rape should be investigated by women police officers, prosecuted by women prosecutors, presided over by women judges, and heard by women jurors.
9
Thomas,
Which would be wholly Unconstitutional.
Which would be wholly Unconstitutional.
2
We already did that with all-white juries in many parts of the country in the past. How did that work out?
2
I'm not sure I would consider this young person's letter either "devastating", "thoughtful" or even "honest". It is not at all clear from her story that she was actually raped. She has no memory of what did or did not happen to her. Her only "evidence" is that her clothes were on backwards when she woke up. Then again, massively drunk people do massively bizarre things.
Assuming sexual relations did occur, is she suggesting that the young man she had them with was stone cold sober? And how would she know that? What's the probability that he was? Not likely. Indeed her standard of "consent" applies equally to him. Which is likely why "...another girl at my college..." was "in mediation with her rapist."
Her use of the term "girl" to refer to both herself and other students tells you all you need to know about her character. She's not a "girl", she's an emotionally immature adult. Her letter is not that of a rape "survivor". Her remarks are those of an alcoholic. Night-sweats, nightmares, 3AM bouts of telephonitis, and massive weight loss are what happens when someone goes on an extended binge. Instead of feeding her delusion, Mr. Stephens should recommend a good rehab facility.
16
When a man like you so vociferously renounces a woman's story about her own rape, to the point of asserting (with no evidence, but that doesn't seem to stop you) that her nightmares are because of alcohol withdrawal and not stress or trauma, it really makes one wonder what you've done to women in your life.
6
^ and that would be an example of gaslighting.
4
"I would wake up sweating from nightmares. I would call up my mom in the middle of the night hysterical and she would stay on the phone with me until I fell back asleep. I lost about 30 pounds. I would gaze into oncoming traffic as I walked to work and think about jumping in."
Is this the norm for a situation like this? I apologize for sounding so insensitive. My only reference to this is once I got too drunk at a bar in an unfamiliar city, befriended some random dudes who managed to walk me through a deserted park in the middle of the night, and rolled me, beat me up and took my money. I did not have the reaction she had. Are we all different, or are women different from men in this way? What was she hysterical with - fear? Shame? She does not say. Maybe it was a consequence of her belief that she had been raped - she honestly does not remember - but I suspect that other factors unrelated to that evening caused her later troubles. Apologies to those who are offended by this post.
12
As someone who was raped in college (and completely sober), I can tell you PTSD symptoms are quite common. I received counseling for several years after the assult; without it, I would not have been able to form a healthy sexual relationship with a man again. Yes, I believe most women are wired quite differently to process and heal this deepest violation.
7
Gee, now that's a toughie--what is different between a mugging and a rape? Maybe after one the worry might about credit cards being used so they have to be cancelled, but after the other their may be a pregnancy which is just a little bit more complicated. Our society has many taboos about sex, and very few about petty larceny. Not to minimise your loss but it is infinitesimal compared to what is lost in a rape.
4
Did the guys who rolled you stick their penises up your anus? Did they call their friends the next day to brag about doing that to you? If that had happened, you might understand how women feel about being raped.
3
Wait, what? Bret Stephens, you didn't even ATTEMPT an answer?! Here they are again, and please honor her with a reply: "...can you tell me what should be done about it that doesn’t violate due process and that doesn’t make it harder for the victims to come forward and get a conviction? ... If the sexual assault crisis on college campuses shouldn’t, and can’t, be addressed by the Department of Education or by changing Title IX, then who can change it and how? "
6
Her letter is very powerful but your voice needs to be heard also. Funny how attitudes towards rape change when you find out the victim is a friend. Suddenly her opinion has meaning because of her experience.
We always talk about how rape destroys the life and reputation of the accused. No one cares that the victim will have to live with the trauma for the rest of their lives and will seldom see justice. Until we're willing to change the conversation and recognize that the rape victim is the victim nothing will change. Boys will be boys after all.
We always talk about how rape destroys the life and reputation of the accused. No one cares that the victim will have to live with the trauma for the rest of their lives and will seldom see justice. Until we're willing to change the conversation and recognize that the rape victim is the victim nothing will change. Boys will be boys after all.
10
My heart breaks for this young woman. I have a teenage daughter and I don't want anything bad to ever happen to her. But at the same time what can be done to help young victims after the fact? If it comes down to one person's word against the other how can you ever prove it? If the woman puts up a fight, then it can be proved but I totally understand why most people don't (and I know of a horrible case where a woman faught and probably because of that was murdered).
The only thing that can be done -- and feminists will yell at me -- is for people, especially women, to not get blackout drunk. Yes, the man who raped her was absolutely evil and in no way did she deserve it. But many people can simply avoid the suffering she is going through by drinking less, having a group of friends walk them home and so on.
The only thing that can be done -- and feminists will yell at me -- is for people, especially women, to not get blackout drunk. Yes, the man who raped her was absolutely evil and in no way did she deserve it. But many people can simply avoid the suffering she is going through by drinking less, having a group of friends walk them home and so on.
3
Or the other thing that can be done is for men not to rape.
Imagine that!
Imagine that!
5
Rape is not an accident. What is often left out is the scheming and planning of the act. The law would call that pre-meditation. The perp takes discreet steps in preparation of the act. They target women who are unprepared, alone, gullible. Drinking games are not just for fun. They are designed to get women intoxicated. While we cannot decide after the fact which story to believe, we can surely make a greater effort to mitigate the situations that lead to rape. This is more than no means no. It means reducing the excess consumption of intoxicants and having people alone that allow the act to occur. Thank you for telling your side of the story. I hope your read the book written by the Central Park jogger who was rapeed. Her strength and character give us hope.
5
I just scanned a few of the comments below. They sound to me lame excursions into lame defenses by perhaps self-conscious or unremorsed male minds. Not a wee bit of attention paid to what happens to the victim who was drunk but did not at all want what happened. As a male, I do not feel very sympathetic or understanding of the commentators. To each his own. For me, they are on their own.
10
Dear Mr. Stephens,
Would you take this letter and personally deliver to Ms. DeVos.
Thank you.
Would you take this letter and personally deliver to Ms. DeVos.
Thank you.
6
This letter will simply strengthen DeVos's view that:
“a system without due process ultimately serves no one in the end.”
DeVos Says She Will Revisit Obama-Era Sexual Assault Policies
By SHERYL GAY STOLBERG
JULY 13, 2017
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/13/us/devos-college-sexual-assault.html
“a system without due process ultimately serves no one in the end.”
DeVos Says She Will Revisit Obama-Era Sexual Assault Policies
By SHERYL GAY STOLBERG
JULY 13, 2017
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/13/us/devos-college-sexual-assault.html
2
How would you address the issue if it were MEN getting raped and not women. How would the laws change and charges?
8
"In college, I once blacked out drunk at a party..."
Nearly every campus rape story - certainly the ones that make the evening news, starts like this.
Why did the letter-writer get blacked-out drunk? Not everyone at college does. Students who are serious about getting their college education and receiving a degree are more interested in their studies, not destroying their sobriety. In the rape she referenced - Brock Turner - the victim similarly got blacked-out drunk, because she wanted to show her little sister that she knew how to party like a college student. Why? Why the obsession with drinking beyond consciousness?
CD from Madison below explains precisely that the best thing a victim can do is go to the police. Do not try to use the college's tools - the college is going to look out for itself first, and students second.
Nearly every campus rape story - certainly the ones that make the evening news, starts like this.
Why did the letter-writer get blacked-out drunk? Not everyone at college does. Students who are serious about getting their college education and receiving a degree are more interested in their studies, not destroying their sobriety. In the rape she referenced - Brock Turner - the victim similarly got blacked-out drunk, because she wanted to show her little sister that she knew how to party like a college student. Why? Why the obsession with drinking beyond consciousness?
CD from Madison below explains precisely that the best thing a victim can do is go to the police. Do not try to use the college's tools - the college is going to look out for itself first, and students second.
8
Why did the guy she was with rape her? That's a far better question.
5
Anne, you aren't following the logic or the facts. The letter writer created the situation by intentionally getting blacked-out drunk. She doesn't blame date-rape drugs, she doesn't blame someone else forcing her to drink alcohol - she self-inflicted. That does not excuse the rapist. But it suggests that if the victim had chosen a different path - which she had every available source of information regarding alcohol and sobriety to review - the situation would never have taken place. You are putting the victim on a pedestal and claiming she did nothing wrong, and likewise putting all the blame on the drunk college student who assumed he was having sex with a willing partner. The letter writer cannot even claim she didn't throw herself at her accused rapist. And neither can you.
1
Due process is guaranteed to citizens against action by the government. And the government actions that are sanctioned absent due process are specific: deprivation of life, liberty, or property.
Citizens do not have a constitutional right to a post-secondary education, and can be deprived of such education, even without due process of law.
Unlike Constitutional protections, one must qualify for post-secondary education, whether by academic achievement, athletic prowess, moral integrity, financial fitness or some other factor(s). When one enrolls in a college or university, one agrees to abide by the rules of that institution, and one agrees to abide by such proceedings and measures as indicated in those rules.
To one accused of rape, as long as the institution is not seeking to murder you or lock you in a cell, you are not owed due process of law. You are owed the proceedings indicated by the institution's rules, to which you consented when you enrolled.
As an aside, the impotence and deficiency of the punitive measures available in a campus proceeding (e.g. academic probation, expulsion, delay of re-enrollment) are related to why the standards of proof are so different between a government courtroom and a campus proceeding. The accused enjoys more protections as the available punishments become more severe.
Critics of campus sexual assault investigation guidelines who cry "due process" are intentionally muddying the legal waters in order to facilitate more campus rape.
Citizens do not have a constitutional right to a post-secondary education, and can be deprived of such education, even without due process of law.
Unlike Constitutional protections, one must qualify for post-secondary education, whether by academic achievement, athletic prowess, moral integrity, financial fitness or some other factor(s). When one enrolls in a college or university, one agrees to abide by the rules of that institution, and one agrees to abide by such proceedings and measures as indicated in those rules.
To one accused of rape, as long as the institution is not seeking to murder you or lock you in a cell, you are not owed due process of law. You are owed the proceedings indicated by the institution's rules, to which you consented when you enrolled.
As an aside, the impotence and deficiency of the punitive measures available in a campus proceeding (e.g. academic probation, expulsion, delay of re-enrollment) are related to why the standards of proof are so different between a government courtroom and a campus proceeding. The accused enjoys more protections as the available punishments become more severe.
Critics of campus sexual assault investigation guidelines who cry "due process" are intentionally muddying the legal waters in order to facilitate more campus rape.
9
Right. Obviously anyone calling for due process should be punished!
The police SHOULD get involved. The problem is, the criminal justice system works very slowly. It took years to convict the Vanderbilt gang rapists, and there was video evidence of their crime. In the meantime, victims have to go to class with and sometimes live in the same dorm with perpetrators. Colleges are forced to make some sort of decision almost immediately to protect victims from future harm and from the stress involved with encountering a violent perpetrator almost daily.
It may be hard to understand if you have never been assaulted, but seeing the person who assaulted you, even from a distance, is terrifying. It causes your heart to race. You want to flee to a safe place, but there is no safe place. If you have "told on" the rapist, you fear retaliation from him or his friends. This is bad enough in "regular" life, but on a small campus, it's horrible.
It may be hard to understand if you have never been assaulted, but seeing the person who assaulted you, even from a distance, is terrifying. It causes your heart to race. You want to flee to a safe place, but there is no safe place. If you have "told on" the rapist, you fear retaliation from him or his friends. This is bad enough in "regular" life, but on a small campus, it's horrible.
6
The author says she "blacked out drunk". This suggests she is amnesic about some of the night. This is consistent with her saying "I couldn't remember enough from the night to defend myself. What if I had said OK?"
This is part of the very complex challenge relating to the current campus drinking culture. Some sexual assaults are perpetrated by predators, who take advantage of drunk, defenseless women. A very small percentage of sexual assault claims are made up by the victim. Most campus sexual assault fact patterns involve two drunk people, with compromised judgment and memory, who are already acquainted before starting down a path of consensual physical intimacy. The all too common alcohol fueled "hookup". Their drunkenness leads to blackouts, communication problems, and reduced ability to send and receive messages. The wreckage from all of this does not lend itself to easy solutions. Criminal court process/burden of proof makes conviction unlikely, even where an assault occurred, no consent given. Campus Title IX process/reduced burden of proof makes discipline/expulsion very likely, even if consent was given. Due process does not guarantee justice, but lack of due process guarantees injustice.
This is part of the very complex challenge relating to the current campus drinking culture. Some sexual assaults are perpetrated by predators, who take advantage of drunk, defenseless women. A very small percentage of sexual assault claims are made up by the victim. Most campus sexual assault fact patterns involve two drunk people, with compromised judgment and memory, who are already acquainted before starting down a path of consensual physical intimacy. The all too common alcohol fueled "hookup". Their drunkenness leads to blackouts, communication problems, and reduced ability to send and receive messages. The wreckage from all of this does not lend itself to easy solutions. Criminal court process/burden of proof makes conviction unlikely, even where an assault occurred, no consent given. Campus Title IX process/reduced burden of proof makes discipline/expulsion very likely, even if consent was given. Due process does not guarantee justice, but lack of due process guarantees injustice.
10
The sad, brutal truth: not all criminals get convicted. In fact, most get away with their crime. This is a heartbreaking story. I have a very similar one. But I had no evidence, and it sounds like there was no evidence in this case. No witnesses, no physical evidence, no email trail. So, no conviction.
3
The key to successful prosecution of campus rape is not depriving the accused of due process rights to a fair and impartial adjudication. Rather, it requires the prompt reporting of the incident by the victim, so all pertinent evidence (e.g., rape kit) can be gathered before it becomes unobtainable. It is unreasonable to blame the system for failure to prosecute when the initial report is delayed for years.
The answer to the question, "What can be done for the next girl who wakes up with her clothes inside out and her world ripped apart?" is for all incoming students to be educated on what to do if a rape is committed, including the necessity of prompt reporting, and the assurance of sensitive and respectful treatment by the authorities.
The answer to the question, "What can be done for the next girl who wakes up with her clothes inside out and her world ripped apart?" is for all incoming students to be educated on what to do if a rape is committed, including the necessity of prompt reporting, and the assurance of sensitive and respectful treatment by the authorities.
1
If campus sexual assault is aided and abetted by binge drinking wouldn't it be a good idea for colleges and universities to do whatever they can to discourage binge drinking if they really want to work to decrease the frequency of sexual assault?
Make it known wild drinking parties at fraternities and sororities will not be tolerated and that chapters that condone and encourage such events could lose their standing as fraternities and sororities at that particular campus. Don't focus just on sexual assault but also focus on events that encourage binge drinking that can lead to sexual assault by having victims of sexual assault sue the sponsors of such events in civil court for damages for sponsoring events that encourage serious alcohol abuse that leads to sexual assault. Focusing only on sexual assault while largely ignoring binge drinking and the epidemic of alcohol abuse on campuses nationwide only addresses part of the problem and dismisses a major cause of campus sexual assault as "they're just kids having a good time". Serious alcohol abuse that often leads to sexual assault is a lot more dangerous than just "kids having a good time". Time for colleges and universities to step up and really do something about binge drinking and alcohol abuse on campus.
4
@David St Clair -- actually it appears you don't understand the definition of blackout, which implies not remembering events for some period of time (and is not the same thing as being unconscious or sufficiently incapacitated as to be incapable of consent). One can potentially still be lucid and give consent during that time, yet not remember it. The fact that she woke up without remembering the sex does not necessarily mean that she failed to give consent.
7
Don't conform to "the culture." Question the idea that hook-ups are somehow useful growth experiences and can come without unpleasant consequences of one kind or another. The only way to insure that you don't get "blacked-out drunk" is to not get drunk, period -- drunkenness is not (or shouldn't be) a university requirement.
2
I hope, if nothing else, Bret Stephens' correspondent thinks hard about her own behavior and values. For one think, nothing good comes from drinking to the point of being falling down drunk and then having a blackout. Was this event the first time she was ever in that condition? Is her account of what really happened that night complete and accurate? How can anyone know?
6
I am a sober, recovering alcoholic. So, I understand blacking out, passing out, inebriation in general. What I am going to say sounds harsh, but I believe that the victim has lots of responsibility in these cases. I have blacked out in public. Although I was never raped, while blacked out I was able to converse and act as though I was just drunk. How would the other person know that? Also, if both parties are very inebriated, who know who said what to whom.
Substance abuse is a huge problem and I think the biggest problem in these situations versus "abdicating responsibility" or moral demise.
I am not suggesting that people should be raped. But, I believe if one does not want to be in this situation then one should conduct him or herself with enough respect not to get drunk.
9
I have immense compassion for the author of this letter and I generally agree with her point of view. But most telling of all to me is in her last paragraph, where the author states, "some boys have been kicked out of college unjustly." And therein I believe lies part of the problem. Under the law, these males are not boys - they are adult men. Yet the author considers them juveniles - boys and not men. And a large majority of college males and females always have and, perhaps today more so, behave like boys and girls and not men and women. College is a place for coming of age and beginning the transition from youth to adulthood with the assumption of greater responsibilities and, hopefully, paying greater attention to laws and social mores. It seems to me that the older adults - the parents, the professors and the school administrators - might be abdicating some of their responsibility in ensuring a safer transition from youth to adulthood. New laws may be of some use, but are no replacement for meaningful interaction between adults and young adults in mentoring and counseling them to become decent, responsible and respectful members of society.
4
There is no solution "that doesn’t violate due process and that doesn’t make it harder for the victims to come forward and get a conviction". Due process, by definition, makes it harder for victims to come forward (because it involves questioning their accounts) and to get a conviction. Let's honestly acknowledge this unavoidable tension, and then seek the right balance.
8
She makes a great point: YOU should write a column about this.
It was cool that you gave space in a high profile column for her voice. But part of what she said is that people in your type of role refuse to talk about this issue, and she has to tell her whole story to get any kind of an audience. She was asking YOU to take her cause as seriously as that of the falsely accused.
So if you gave her this space, and follow it with a column in which you own those ideas and state them from your own heart, cool. Then this is really cool. Then bravo, and thank you for becoming an advocate on this very important issue that we should all be able to agree on.
But if this is all you have to say on the issue--nothing--then this will be a clear example of exactly the inexplicable silence your friend described.
It was cool that you gave space in a high profile column for her voice. But part of what she said is that people in your type of role refuse to talk about this issue, and she has to tell her whole story to get any kind of an audience. She was asking YOU to take her cause as seriously as that of the falsely accused.
So if you gave her this space, and follow it with a column in which you own those ideas and state them from your own heart, cool. Then this is really cool. Then bravo, and thank you for becoming an advocate on this very important issue that we should all be able to agree on.
But if this is all you have to say on the issue--nothing--then this will be a clear example of exactly the inexplicable silence your friend described.
177
"In college, I once blacked out drunk at a party and someone offered to walk me home."
The definition of a blackout is that you can't remember what happened during the blackout period. Perhaps the author means she lost consciousness, regained consciousness, and then "someone offered to walk [her] home".
"How does one prove I wasn’t passed out at the time of the event itself?"
The author seems to be confusing blackouts and unconsciousness. During a blackout period, a person can continue to function and may not appear to be intoxicated. The word "blackout" refers to the amnesia that prevents recollection of what was done during the blackout period. (The term "blackout" is very confusing for that reason.) In contrast, when a person is unconscious, the person cannot function -- cannot walk, cannot talk, cannot move with intent.
"I didn’t learn till later that incapacitated people can’t consent."
Here, the author introduces yet another term, "incapacitated", that shows she really doesn't know anything about states of consciousness. A person who is *unconscious* cannot consent, because the person cannot function -- i.e. cannot talk. A person may be conscious and give consent, yet not remember giving consent -- that amnesia is called a "blackout".
For more about alcohol-induced amnesia, see:
"What Happened? Alcohol, Memory Blackouts, and the Brain"
by Aaron M. White, Ph.D.
National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism.
July 2004
2017-09-13 20:02:44 UTC
The definition of a blackout is that you can't remember what happened during the blackout period. Perhaps the author means she lost consciousness, regained consciousness, and then "someone offered to walk [her] home".
"How does one prove I wasn’t passed out at the time of the event itself?"
The author seems to be confusing blackouts and unconsciousness. During a blackout period, a person can continue to function and may not appear to be intoxicated. The word "blackout" refers to the amnesia that prevents recollection of what was done during the blackout period. (The term "blackout" is very confusing for that reason.) In contrast, when a person is unconscious, the person cannot function -- cannot walk, cannot talk, cannot move with intent.
"I didn’t learn till later that incapacitated people can’t consent."
Here, the author introduces yet another term, "incapacitated", that shows she really doesn't know anything about states of consciousness. A person who is *unconscious* cannot consent, because the person cannot function -- i.e. cannot talk. A person may be conscious and give consent, yet not remember giving consent -- that amnesia is called a "blackout".
For more about alcohol-induced amnesia, see:
"What Happened? Alcohol, Memory Blackouts, and the Brain"
by Aaron M. White, Ph.D.
National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism.
July 2004
2017-09-13 20:02:44 UTC
24
This is what you take from the piece? Correcting the writer on not being clear on the distinction between blacked out and unconscious?
It seemed pretty clear to me that the author was blacked out. Extremely intoxicated. Not in control of her self. Perhaps she remembered someone offered to walk her home and then she blacked out. Perhaps a friend told her afterwards that someone walked her home. Maybe she did pass out, and maybe she didn't - she doesn't remember.
The bottom line is that whether you agree with this or not or not, a person who is that intoxicated is unable to give legal consent.
It seemed pretty clear to me that the author was blacked out. Extremely intoxicated. Not in control of her self. Perhaps she remembered someone offered to walk her home and then she blacked out. Perhaps a friend told her afterwards that someone walked her home. Maybe she did pass out, and maybe she didn't - she doesn't remember.
The bottom line is that whether you agree with this or not or not, a person who is that intoxicated is unable to give legal consent.
7
I, too, always save my most pedantic impulses for correcting those describing traumatic events!
7
What exactly are you saying? Nothing happened or what did can be excused by semantic gymnastics?
3
To me, a liberal middle aged man, the stories of rape like this overlap with stories of consensual sex. Reportedly, women on campus today are too busy for boyfriends, so they hook up. The hook up typically involves drinking to a point where the young lady isn't revolted by the thought of hooking up with a complete stranger. The young man may indeed be someone the woman intensely dislikes, or even hates, but the goal is sex not friendship. Sounds like a fraught campus culture to me. Young men and women objectify and dehumanize each other and themselves, so they can have sex without guilt or commitment. On campus, the line between consensual sex and rape seems practically invisible. Maybe I've got. Amours culture all wrong, but to me it all sounds horrible, unnatural, and disgusting. Ah, for the good old days of dating and friendship...
19
I'm not really sure that human nature has changed that much in a generation or two. Certainly, young boys and girls fling themselves at each other; but for different reasons, it seems to me.
In my own experience, boys were looking for immediate physical--and emotional--gratification in a terrible, unsustainable way. Girls were looking for TRUE LOVE then, and, I suspect, they still are. Sex with near-strangers can be a poorly-thought-out part of that quest, but it seems to me unlikely that girls have adopted juvenile male psychology entire in only thirty years.
P.S. Cheers to Bret Stephens for giving voice to this woman--and many others that have thought the same thing.
In my own experience, boys were looking for immediate physical--and emotional--gratification in a terrible, unsustainable way. Girls were looking for TRUE LOVE then, and, I suspect, they still are. Sex with near-strangers can be a poorly-thought-out part of that quest, but it seems to me unlikely that girls have adopted juvenile male psychology entire in only thirty years.
P.S. Cheers to Bret Stephens for giving voice to this woman--and many others that have thought the same thing.
1
There is no mere line between consensual sex and rape. it is a huge gaping gorge only crossed by affirmative permission from someone capable of giving consent.
6
"The hook up typically involves drinking to a point where the young lady isn't revolted by the thought of hooking up with a complete stranger."
This sentence, along with others in your post, are real only in your imagination. The statement is based on nothing but your private beliefs. Is it so hard for you to believe young women might have sex for pleasure, with men they are friendly with? Or, that sex might be a pleasurable way to create, or solidify, friendships? It's 2017. Time to wake up (or maybe "grow up"?).
This sentence, along with others in your post, are real only in your imagination. The statement is based on nothing but your private beliefs. Is it so hard for you to believe young women might have sex for pleasure, with men they are friendly with? Or, that sex might be a pleasurable way to create, or solidify, friendships? It's 2017. Time to wake up (or maybe "grow up"?).
6
"In college, I once blacked out drunk at a party and someone offered to walk me home. I don’t remember what happened after that, but ..."
A terrible experience, no doubt. However, I don't quite understand the certainty that the male (I assume it was a male) was not similarly blacked out drunk. If he was not, if he was sober or only mildly intoxicated, then this was rape no doubt. But it seems entirely feasible to me that both parties were compeletely drunk, and then nature took it's course. If that was the case, what justification is there to single out one as the raper and the other as the raped?
It's possible I'm completely daft and missing something crucial here - if so, please educate me.
A terrible experience, no doubt. However, I don't quite understand the certainty that the male (I assume it was a male) was not similarly blacked out drunk. If he was not, if he was sober or only mildly intoxicated, then this was rape no doubt. But it seems entirely feasible to me that both parties were compeletely drunk, and then nature took it's course. If that was the case, what justification is there to single out one as the raper and the other as the raped?
It's possible I'm completely daft and missing something crucial here - if so, please educate me.
40
Not to be too crass here, but an unconscious man is physically incapable of intercourse. The same is not true of an unconscious woman.
So yes, it is in fact safe to assume that the man was aware of his actions in a way the woman was yet, hence calling him a rapist is accurate.
So yes, it is in fact safe to assume that the man was aware of his actions in a way the woman was yet, hence calling him a rapist is accurate.
5
*whoops, forgot a key word before.
The standard heterosexual sex positions usually call for men to use leverage either through propping themselves up or gripping a women, they usually exert energy, and guide the weight and thrust of their (usually) bodies. Our most basic of position is guy on top, giving men the power in a dynamic in which two people are intoxicated. Given that the writer reports waking up bruised with clothes inside out and feeling violated, the guy near certainly had the upper hand as the rapist.
The clothes inside out can indicate that she may have been hastily re-dressed while passed out in an effort for him to cover up his crime.
The standard heterosexual sex positions usually call for men to use leverage either through propping themselves up or gripping a women, they usually exert energy, and guide the weight and thrust of their (usually) bodies. Our most basic of position is guy on top, giving men the power in a dynamic in which two people are intoxicated. Given that the writer reports waking up bruised with clothes inside out and feeling violated, the guy near certainly had the upper hand as the rapist.
The clothes inside out can indicate that she may have been hastily re-dressed while passed out in an effort for him to cover up his crime.
3
Were both blackout drunk? Isn't it sexist to assume she was the victim here?
If both were very drunk, the physical difference between the two wouldn't matter. She could have easily been the aggressor and raped him.
Or it could have been consensual - nobody knows, including her.
While this scenario sounds scary and disorienting, I'm not sure there's a crime here.
If both were very drunk, the physical difference between the two wouldn't matter. She could have easily been the aggressor and raped him.
Or it could have been consensual - nobody knows, including her.
While this scenario sounds scary and disorienting, I'm not sure there's a crime here.
4
A lot of people here are willfully ignoring the fact that men use drugs and high-proof clear alcohol to poison women, as well as their own greater tolerance for alcohol to claim, "we'd both been drinking" while still being able to enjoy the pleasure they take in rape.
A lot of people here are willfully ignoring the fact that someone who starts screaming when sees her clothes on inside out, and her body covered in bruises (that were probably inflicted and not the results of falls)--knows she's been raped. She knows her body, and she knows what she wanted and didn't want. No one has the right to claim otherwise.
A lot of people are willfully eliding the fact that the men who do these things know exactly what they are doing. They are cold, calculating predators who rack up a huge body count and they don't stop until they are forced to. They like knowing their victims will wake up screaming... and have nowhere to turn for justice. Because, after all, "she doesn't really know if she didn't consent."
Many of these men (and most of them are men, regardless of the names they are posing under) are rapists themselves. Others... just enjoy living in a world where they have that kind of power over women, and the deference it automatically ensures them.
A lot of people here are willfully ignoring the fact that someone who starts screaming when sees her clothes on inside out, and her body covered in bruises (that were probably inflicted and not the results of falls)--knows she's been raped. She knows her body, and she knows what she wanted and didn't want. No one has the right to claim otherwise.
A lot of people are willfully eliding the fact that the men who do these things know exactly what they are doing. They are cold, calculating predators who rack up a huge body count and they don't stop until they are forced to. They like knowing their victims will wake up screaming... and have nowhere to turn for justice. Because, after all, "she doesn't really know if she didn't consent."
Many of these men (and most of them are men, regardless of the names they are posing under) are rapists themselves. Others... just enjoy living in a world where they have that kind of power over women, and the deference it automatically ensures them.
135
"A lot of people here are willfully ignoring ..."
Unless you give specific evidence proving the intent to "ignore", you are merely speculating about the motivations of people you don't know.
Unless you give specific evidence proving the intent to "ignore", you are merely speculating about the motivations of people you don't know.
1
In the Stanford student rape case in California, the woman raped stated she had a glass of vodka with dinner before going to the party (with more alcohol consumption). Who in their right mind drinks a glass of vodka with dinner? I've seen women students do boilermakers at one bar, and then go driving to another bar. How much alcohol does it take to become unconscious? The alcohol consumption problem is bigger than the rape problem!
1
Unless I am misreading this, she says she was so drunk she was covered with bruises from falling over. Her clothes being inside out do not prove she was raped. She could have dressed herself, and, in her drunken state, done it incorrectly. Why is so impossible that the two were very drunk and had sex? She does not actually know at all, by her own admission what happened. How can she reasonably persuade any objective party that she was raped anymore than that she raped him (following her logic that those who are incapacitated can't consent)? Is someone involved in sexual activity while drunk automatically the victim when female and automatically a rapist when male? This is *not* the same as the Stanford case, in which it was abundantly clear that the male was raping an unconscious woman. Nothing is abundantly, or even a little, clear in this story, by the author's own admission. Unless there are details she is leaving out (obvious injuries, etc), how can she know this beyond her statement that she was too incapacitated to consent. Can she testify to whether he was in any state to consent? While certainly more should be done for the women who have been raped, perhaps the most practical first step women can take is to avoid drinking excessively around men they do not know and cannot trust--and, no, this is not blaming the victim, for whom we should have every sympathy; this is about trying to prevent women from being victims in the first place.
2
Why don't Colleges provide experienced therapists
trained in how to help the victim present their case
to the Local Police ?
Then the issue can be taken over by the police
and, if warranted, a trial held.
trained in how to help the victim present their case
to the Local Police ?
Then the issue can be taken over by the police
and, if warranted, a trial held.
5
And precisely what jury would convict? They won't even convict Cosby? They won't even put the crimes of a man whose assaulted 10 women together because he didn't stalk the women exactly the same and that would be prejudicial.
11
Why don't colleges ban alcohol? Oh, wait, it's ALREADY illegal for most college student undergrads to drink. Why don't police and administrators enforce THAT?
4
NSH,
I noticed that at 2:38 PST, on Wed, 9/13
you have 4 recommends and I have 2 recommends.
Unless the Constitution is changed, the accused
is entitled to Due Process.
If you do not like what Juries do in crimes like this
get the Constitution changed.
I noticed that at 2:38 PST, on Wed, 9/13
you have 4 recommends and I have 2 recommends.
Unless the Constitution is changed, the accused
is entitled to Due Process.
If you do not like what Juries do in crimes like this
get the Constitution changed.
Thank you for printing the full letter. The author certainly illustrates what policy makers don't understand about sexual assault and the college experience. If possible, the general legal apparatus is even more clueless.
Some people love to blame permissive campus lifestyles. I say they're nuts. Throw a few thousand young adults together anywhere in the world and you'll have sexual altercations that end poorly. Not always criminal but there are always awkward moments. Then you have your predators as well.
Take the military as an example. The services are no bastion of social liberalism. Yet, rape problems persist along with the same institutional challenges. The military generally favors gender discrimination and segregation before anything else. Here there is an argument in favor of university distinction.
The question is really a different one though. How much is the institution even capable of mediating? You can argue for due process but that's relatively pointless. The process already deters most victims from reporting a crime in the first place. There is no due process when the process prevents due process. Do you see?
The colleges are desperately trying to thread the needle. College is meant as a free and a safe space. The two things are at odds with each other. Your laptop is safe if you bury it in the ground but then it's not very useful. That's how campuses work. There's no solution. There's only a spectrum and a response when things go wrong.
Some people love to blame permissive campus lifestyles. I say they're nuts. Throw a few thousand young adults together anywhere in the world and you'll have sexual altercations that end poorly. Not always criminal but there are always awkward moments. Then you have your predators as well.
Take the military as an example. The services are no bastion of social liberalism. Yet, rape problems persist along with the same institutional challenges. The military generally favors gender discrimination and segregation before anything else. Here there is an argument in favor of university distinction.
The question is really a different one though. How much is the institution even capable of mediating? You can argue for due process but that's relatively pointless. The process already deters most victims from reporting a crime in the first place. There is no due process when the process prevents due process. Do you see?
The colleges are desperately trying to thread the needle. College is meant as a free and a safe space. The two things are at odds with each other. Your laptop is safe if you bury it in the ground but then it's not very useful. That's how campuses work. There's no solution. There's only a spectrum and a response when things go wrong.
4
why do people assume colleges should be safe places? Four years in a safe holding pen will not prepare people for the real world, quite the opposite. We can prepare our children for a harsh world or we can protect them-for a short time. take your pick
1
Is the problem that many are attacked and few are charged? Or is the problem that some are wrongly found in violation and are damaged by administrative sanctions?
Is it bad judgement to drink to incapacitation but OK judgement to hang out where people are being raped?
Dare we claim that rape culture does not exist? "No means yes and Yes means....." "For a few minutes of action."
What solution do Douthat, Stephens and DeVos bring to these problems?
And what makes this a partisan issue?
As a parent, I want this addressed by serious people who agree that only consent is consent and that being drugged, drunk or hit over the head are states that are incompatible with consent.
Is it bad judgement to drink to incapacitation but OK judgement to hang out where people are being raped?
Dare we claim that rape culture does not exist? "No means yes and Yes means....." "For a few minutes of action."
What solution do Douthat, Stephens and DeVos bring to these problems?
And what makes this a partisan issue?
As a parent, I want this addressed by serious people who agree that only consent is consent and that being drugged, drunk or hit over the head are states that are incompatible with consent.
19
A moving, eloquent story. But let's not keep referring to alleged rapists as "boys." Immaturity is no excuse for committing a cruel, serious felony. And they're not "young men," either. If they raped, they're rapists.
3
To my way of thinking, there is a huge difference between two people who are falling-down drunk managing to have a sexual encounter and a sober male predator taking advantage of an intoxicated female. One is stupid behavior; the other is rape.
37
This letter from the victim makes the perfect case for why our legal system works the way it does.
The victim was escorted home by a man. She was too inebriated to be aware of her surroundings or who was with her. She woke up with her clothes inside and out, and presumably aware she had been raped. She says there were no witnesses "but us".
What if the acquaintance had brought her home, then left, but left the door ajar, and someone else had committed the rape? What if someone had joined the acquaintance on the way home and had actually taken her to her apartment? Our legal system would suss that out. This is a case for law enforcement, not campus tribunals.
The victim was escorted home by a man. She was too inebriated to be aware of her surroundings or who was with her. She woke up with her clothes inside and out, and presumably aware she had been raped. She says there were no witnesses "but us".
What if the acquaintance had brought her home, then left, but left the door ajar, and someone else had committed the rape? What if someone had joined the acquaintance on the way home and had actually taken her to her apartment? Our legal system would suss that out. This is a case for law enforcement, not campus tribunals.
31
Djt: "The victim was escorted home by a man."
Read again. The author says: "someone offered to walk me home". There is no indication of the gender of that "someone". Indeed, there is no clear indication that the author even accepted the "offer".
Djt: "What if someone had joined the acquaintance on the way home and had actually taken her to her apartment?"
Good point. Much later in the letter, the author says: "I was raped. He got away with it, ..."
However, the author never explicitly says that the alleged rapist is the same person as the "someone" who "offered to walk [her] home".
Read again. The author says: "someone offered to walk me home". There is no indication of the gender of that "someone". Indeed, there is no clear indication that the author even accepted the "offer".
Djt: "What if someone had joined the acquaintance on the way home and had actually taken her to her apartment?"
Good point. Much later in the letter, the author says: "I was raped. He got away with it, ..."
However, the author never explicitly says that the alleged rapist is the same person as the "someone" who "offered to walk [her] home".
1
You'd like to think the man - if more sober than she - would at the very least have taken her home, tucked her into bed and left quietly. Maybe first used her phone to contact one of her friends to come over to be with her. Or to have kept her safe at his house, unmolested, until she woke up.
It seems like some people responding to this thread seem to think that it would have been big of him to have simply refrained from raping her.
It seems like some people responding to this thread seem to think that it would have been big of him to have simply refrained from raping her.
5
"It’s easy to believe there’s an epidemic of false accusations, but not that there’s too much sexual assault. It’s a cognitive dissonance I can’t explain with any charity."
Easy to explain, no charity required.
Men rule the world. They don't think sex is a big deal and women who complain in any situation that they are being treated unfairly are immediately labelled as witches, liars, emotionally unstable, etc. etc. It's a cultural problem and it exists in every corner of the world.
Easy to explain, no charity required.
Men rule the world. They don't think sex is a big deal and women who complain in any situation that they are being treated unfairly are immediately labelled as witches, liars, emotionally unstable, etc. etc. It's a cultural problem and it exists in every corner of the world.
60
You know, there is no inherent right to have sex without consequences.
I think campuses should expel students accused of rape if there is any evidence of sexual intercourse or even the possibility that it could have occurred, such as that two people disappeared into a room alone together for an hour.
Not fair? Too severe? Poor innocent boys will have to be very careful about who they have sex with, and making sure their sex partners don't get outrageously upset with them, and that they're not even alone in a room with someone who might accuse them of raping them in the time they are alone together?
Yeah, that's rough. Almost as rough as having half of the population around you outweighing you by about fifty pounds and being hopped up on hormones that make them stronger than you and driven to have sex, hormones that they haven't experienced long enough to be able to deal with effectively. Almost as rough as having to be careful about who you date, and with making sure your partners don't get outrageously upset with you and beat you to a pulp, and that you're not even alone in a room with someone who might rape you during the time you are alone together.
And this policy can be called, "Time to man up, little boys."
I think campuses should expel students accused of rape if there is any evidence of sexual intercourse or even the possibility that it could have occurred, such as that two people disappeared into a room alone together for an hour.
Not fair? Too severe? Poor innocent boys will have to be very careful about who they have sex with, and making sure their sex partners don't get outrageously upset with them, and that they're not even alone in a room with someone who might accuse them of raping them in the time they are alone together?
Yeah, that's rough. Almost as rough as having half of the population around you outweighing you by about fifty pounds and being hopped up on hormones that make them stronger than you and driven to have sex, hormones that they haven't experienced long enough to be able to deal with effectively. Almost as rough as having to be careful about who you date, and with making sure your partners don't get outrageously upset with you and beat you to a pulp, and that you're not even alone in a room with someone who might rape you during the time you are alone together.
And this policy can be called, "Time to man up, little boys."
39
I assume that the females caught in intercourse or accused of seducing a male will also be expelled.
4
Yeah, what can be done?
Finding justice in a rape case, for both the alleged victim and the accused will always be a tough problem except in the most obvious of cases.
Was consent given? Was she really incapacitated? When a crime comes down to he/said she said, don't expect justice to be easy.
Since so many cases involve drinking, maybe that's the piece of the puzzle that should be looked at.
Let's stipulate that both adult men and women should have the freedom to drink, even excessively, if that's what they like.
And they should do so without the fear that somebody is going to take advantage of them, whether it's rape, or theft, or whatever.
Let's agree that if somebody takes advantage of you when you're drunk, it's horrible, and if it's rape, it's without question a horrible crime. And it goes without saying that it is not you're fault if you drink and get raped. And anybody who rapes you when you're drunk deserves to be in jail.
But if you want to avoid the fate of this young women, don't get drunk to the point of losing control. I know - it's not fair. And it doesn't solve the problem of rape. But it might save you.
Finding justice in a rape case, for both the alleged victim and the accused will always be a tough problem except in the most obvious of cases.
Was consent given? Was she really incapacitated? When a crime comes down to he/said she said, don't expect justice to be easy.
Since so many cases involve drinking, maybe that's the piece of the puzzle that should be looked at.
Let's stipulate that both adult men and women should have the freedom to drink, even excessively, if that's what they like.
And they should do so without the fear that somebody is going to take advantage of them, whether it's rape, or theft, or whatever.
Let's agree that if somebody takes advantage of you when you're drunk, it's horrible, and if it's rape, it's without question a horrible crime. And it goes without saying that it is not you're fault if you drink and get raped. And anybody who rapes you when you're drunk deserves to be in jail.
But if you want to avoid the fate of this young women, don't get drunk to the point of losing control. I know - it's not fair. And it doesn't solve the problem of rape. But it might save you.
13
"And it doesn't solve the problem of rape. But it might save you."
Lol. Yea right. I'm 5'2" 110 lbs soaking wet.
If some guy wants to over power me, he'll be able to, no matter how much or how little I've had to drink.
At best, maybe he chooses another, drunker target, than myself. But you still have the same tragic end result- a victim. Looks like the only thing preventing rape is when men decide not to rape.
Lose control? Lose control lover whom? If I lose control over myself (whatever that means- stumble, pass out, slur my words), how does that make a man decide to rape me? Women don't get so drunk that they lose control of men. Men are responsible for keeping themselves in control. To repeat: the amount of alcohol I drink has NO effect on whether a man "loses control."
Lol. Yea right. I'm 5'2" 110 lbs soaking wet.
If some guy wants to over power me, he'll be able to, no matter how much or how little I've had to drink.
At best, maybe he chooses another, drunker target, than myself. But you still have the same tragic end result- a victim. Looks like the only thing preventing rape is when men decide not to rape.
Lose control? Lose control lover whom? If I lose control over myself (whatever that means- stumble, pass out, slur my words), how does that make a man decide to rape me? Women don't get so drunk that they lose control of men. Men are responsible for keeping themselves in control. To repeat: the amount of alcohol I drink has NO effect on whether a man "loses control."
4
Young people inexperienced with alcohol and taught socially that it is a grand thing to get so drunk you can barely move are prone to mistakes, especially when first using it. Why is alcohol tolerated on college campuses? Why do administrations allow fraternities and sororities to keep it in their houses?
A person in my life whom I hold dear made such a mistake at around college age. She was challenged at a party to drink a pint of alcohol. Young and trusting, unaware that it could have killed her, she did so. Fortunately, she was not subjected to any sort of violent assault, other than the illness the alcohol induced.
The letter published here cries out for an enhanced understanding of this problem and induces great sympathy for the victim, but there is more. The young man in this story, drunk himself, could have been so impaired that he was unable to understand or control his actions (this does not excuse it). Generally, people in blackouts do not do things they wouldn't do normally. It is the moral grounding and humanity that the man's family and self, and perhaps church, create in his consciousness that would stop him.
Most young men these days are trained about sexuality by exposure to pornography. It teaches that women are always willing and will tolerate what might be considered bizarre or unusual sexual practices. What is available to teach respect, decency and restraint? Morality should be a major component of education. Colleges have abandoned that function.
A person in my life whom I hold dear made such a mistake at around college age. She was challenged at a party to drink a pint of alcohol. Young and trusting, unaware that it could have killed her, she did so. Fortunately, she was not subjected to any sort of violent assault, other than the illness the alcohol induced.
The letter published here cries out for an enhanced understanding of this problem and induces great sympathy for the victim, but there is more. The young man in this story, drunk himself, could have been so impaired that he was unable to understand or control his actions (this does not excuse it). Generally, people in blackouts do not do things they wouldn't do normally. It is the moral grounding and humanity that the man's family and self, and perhaps church, create in his consciousness that would stop him.
Most young men these days are trained about sexuality by exposure to pornography. It teaches that women are always willing and will tolerate what might be considered bizarre or unusual sexual practices. What is available to teach respect, decency and restraint? Morality should be a major component of education. Colleges have abandoned that function.
14
What people often don't understand in these cases is that the numbers cluster in the earlier days, more in the first year, of that more in the first months, first weeks, first days. In this time the freshmen girls often don't know how much alcohol they can tolerate and frankly, what gets them drunk isn't that much as you describe. Worse, they don't have a solid support structure to help them, warn them etc. They are busy making friends and nerves cause them to drink more, even unconsciously. Or all too often, with encouragement from upperclassmen. I'm not even talking roofies but sweet drinks that hide a lot, or drinks offered that are easy to forget how much you've had. The 250 pound 6'2 male football player whose used to drinking can have a lot more drinks than the 5'2 110 pound freshwoman on her own for the first time.
9
Heartbreaking, but still no excuse for shelving due process and the rule of law.
14
Nice words until it's your sister or daughter who is victimized.
12
@David,
Would you justify vigilante justice?
Would you justify vigilante justice?
2
Campus rape and assault is a police matter. With the university in the middle it continues to be a mess.
14
When almost half of all US voters voted for a man who bragged about sexual assault, we are a long way from the kind of culture that will allow us to do something serious about the problem of rape.
96
Someone is going to have to explain rape culture to me. I am male, not unattractive and am familiar with college life but for the life of me I can't understand the pluses to having, forced, sexual intercourse with someone I could be interacting with for another four years. I can even relate to bragging about one's ability to seduce and take advantage of the opposite sex but forcing yourself on someone seems to be the epitome of embarrassing, pathetic behavior. Along side the obvious legal ramifications, there is the risk of being ostracized and ridiculed by the people who the victim knows, the physical retribution from a friend or family member and the guilt that will, or should, haunt anyone with a conscience for the rest of your life. I've listed some of the commonalities I have with those in college above but I forgot to mention hormones. I have them too. If they caused me to act in such a disgraceful manner, I would seek medical attention to remedy the situation. I'm told it's about power but wouldn't arm wrestling prove that point as well. I remain amazed that this could happen to so many women but recent events have shown me that a stunning amount of people have a dark side that they keep to themselves until they're drunk, in a dark place or in a voting booth.
28
For the millionth time, rape is not about sex. It's about power. And for the rapist, seeing his victim over the years is "a feature, not a bug." He gets to feel powerful yet again, because it's very rare for a woman to be brave enough to confront her rapist.
And as for being ostracized, well, look at all the responses here who are saying things like, "you shouldn't get drunk" or "maybe he was so drunk he didn't know what he was doing either." It's also very hard to get people to believe rape victims -- most especially when the rapist is an athlete or someone well-known on campus.
And as for being ostracized, well, look at all the responses here who are saying things like, "you shouldn't get drunk" or "maybe he was so drunk he didn't know what he was doing either." It's also very hard to get people to believe rape victims -- most especially when the rapist is an athlete or someone well-known on campus.
5
An attempt to avoid those consequences - being ostracized, confronted, punished, considered pathetic - is EXACTLY what "rape culture's" purpose is: to discourage victims from saying anything or pursuing any justice, so that men who want to rape can do so & continue life unharmed.
3
There needs to be some kind of system in place that keeps track of accused rapists in college. Maybe most of these guys are just opportunistic offenders. But there's bound to be a beginning serial rapist in the mix here and there, because this is the age when someone like that finds his calling. And those guys won't stop when the frat parties are over and they graduate from college.
8
Anyone -- male or female -- who drinks to blackout must face the disquieting possibility that in a sexual encounter with another impaired human and no physical evidence to the contrary, they might actually have been the unwanted aggressor or initiator.
32
We need to read this story a few times to cut through the left vs. right political argle-bargle that substitutes for real thinking. This is a complicated problem and needs nuanced solutions. The issue with the "Dear Colleague" letter is that rather than providing nuance, it provided a sledge hammer.
7
The letter did not provide a sledge hammer. I'm disgusted by the fact that so many people don't know or care about the fact that, given an opportunity, many men will go on the attack. It's sometime rape. It's sometimes another form of sexual invasion. It's sometimes a beating or a violent mugging. You talk, Mr. Spencer, of "argle bargle" on the part of Stephens's correspondent. She is not nuanced enough for you? You remind me of those men from an earlier era who said that women caught more flies with honey than vinegar. Persuade me sweetly, my dear? That "argle bargle" label of a sincere protest is in fact the sledge hammer reaction.
10
There are a lot of problems here. Your correspondent say she was dead drunk so she cannot be responsible for any consent she may have given. She also asserts that her partner was equally intoxicated. It defies logic to think that because he was male, somehow he is more responsible than her. The only reasonable conclusion is that neither is responsible. She, the correspondent, wants the law to solve this. It can't. This is a problem caused by circumstances. Only a different view of alcohol consumption can change this.
Paradoxically, the answer probably lies in changing the drinking age-downward. When I grew up, the age in New York was 18. So we started at 16. By the time we were in college binge drinking seemed childish and we only saw it in students from elsewhere who hadn't learned about responsible drinking. Our binges were behind us.
You won't find an answer in punishing the innocents. It will only perpetuate the notion that rape, under all circumstances, is shameful. And it will result in wrongful convictions. Hardly an improvement.
Paradoxically, the answer probably lies in changing the drinking age-downward. When I grew up, the age in New York was 18. So we started at 16. By the time we were in college binge drinking seemed childish and we only saw it in students from elsewhere who hadn't learned about responsible drinking. Our binges were behind us.
You won't find an answer in punishing the innocents. It will only perpetuate the notion that rape, under all circumstances, is shameful. And it will result in wrongful convictions. Hardly an improvement.
23
Mickey D,
I had a similar experience regarding drinking. It so happened that I turned 18 the year before the District of Columbia (where I was going to college) raised the drinking age to 21, so I saw the 'before' and 'after.' While the drinking age was 18, so most students met the cutoff, there were lots of large keg parties, many of them on campus at events or in dorms. We were drinking beer or wine coolers (yes, it was the 80's) out in the open. It's not easy to get passing-out drunk on Bud Lite, and if you did, others would see and generally look after you. The following year, when most students no longer made the 21 cutoff, the drinking went underground. It didn't stop, but now it was hidden, often off campus in frat houses where more mature adults were nowhere to be found. The University Hospital also immediately saw a spike in alcohol poisoning cases, because instead of getting gradually drunk on cheap beer or wine, students got overage friends or strangers to buy them a bottle of hard liquor and chug it all in their dorm room in a short period of time. Those who developed problem drinking behaviors were hidden, so others were less likely and able to intervene.
I had a similar experience regarding drinking. It so happened that I turned 18 the year before the District of Columbia (where I was going to college) raised the drinking age to 21, so I saw the 'before' and 'after.' While the drinking age was 18, so most students met the cutoff, there were lots of large keg parties, many of them on campus at events or in dorms. We were drinking beer or wine coolers (yes, it was the 80's) out in the open. It's not easy to get passing-out drunk on Bud Lite, and if you did, others would see and generally look after you. The following year, when most students no longer made the 21 cutoff, the drinking went underground. It didn't stop, but now it was hidden, often off campus in frat houses where more mature adults were nowhere to be found. The University Hospital also immediately saw a spike in alcohol poisoning cases, because instead of getting gradually drunk on cheap beer or wine, students got overage friends or strangers to buy them a bottle of hard liquor and chug it all in their dorm room in a short period of time. Those who developed problem drinking behaviors were hidden, so others were less likely and able to intervene.
14
Mickey D-- she doesn't actually say that the person who walked her home was drunk, just that he had been drinking too. Neither does she actually say that she knows that he was the assailant.
I agree with the reader above--in the absence of a shift in cultural awareness among young men, young women have to be more careful in drinking situations. It's not fair, but it would work.
I agree with the reader above--in the absence of a shift in cultural awareness among young men, young women have to be more careful in drinking situations. It's not fair, but it would work.
1
Mickey D, interesting comments, from Nikki as well. I also attended college in the 80's as the drinking age went from 18 to 19, then 21. I can recall plenty of kids who did stupid things while stinking drunk, so some things haven't changed. I would be curious to know if binge drinking is more or less common now than it was when the drinking age was 18. There is something to be said for having some experience with alcohol before leaving for college, so at least you can begin to learn your limits.
2
I congratulate Mr. Stephens's young friend. She is courageous and wise - wiser than he. I continue to be amazed at the blindness toward a crucial point in this ongoing "debate."
Many commenters claim that these are criminal cases and the colleges are ill-equipped to properly adjudicate. Call 911, they say.
It is a false choice. It's not either/or. It is both/and.
Whether to pursue criminal charges is a choice with consequences for victim and perpetrator. Whatever choice a young woman makes, she is not precluding the college from making a parallel adjudication The standard should be different. The criminal justice system should have beyond reasonable doubt as a standard because the criminal penalties are severe and the justice system requires a presumption of innocence. A college does not have the power to assess similarly severe consequences and has a different interest to serve. By proving by preponderance of the evidence, a college has reached a standard quite sufficient to choose to separate the perpetrator from the community. That is a far different consequence than a criminal conviction. Colleges have the right and the responsibility to hold members of their communities to standards and behavioral expectations that are quite apart from the legal statutes. You can't be imprisoned for cheating or plagiarism, but you can be expelled.
By conflating these two issues, we distort the debate.
Many commenters claim that these are criminal cases and the colleges are ill-equipped to properly adjudicate. Call 911, they say.
It is a false choice. It's not either/or. It is both/and.
Whether to pursue criminal charges is a choice with consequences for victim and perpetrator. Whatever choice a young woman makes, she is not precluding the college from making a parallel adjudication The standard should be different. The criminal justice system should have beyond reasonable doubt as a standard because the criminal penalties are severe and the justice system requires a presumption of innocence. A college does not have the power to assess similarly severe consequences and has a different interest to serve. By proving by preponderance of the evidence, a college has reached a standard quite sufficient to choose to separate the perpetrator from the community. That is a far different consequence than a criminal conviction. Colleges have the right and the responsibility to hold members of their communities to standards and behavioral expectations that are quite apart from the legal statutes. You can't be imprisoned for cheating or plagiarism, but you can be expelled.
By conflating these two issues, we distort the debate.
12
Not without due process it is not fair!
2
Thank you for stating this important point so well. It is bizarre to me that so many people seem blind to it. Colleges feel the obligation to address many things––some criminal, some not––that can damage their community and core mission.
Why has this become an ideological issue? Why does the column written by Ross Dothan call this a "liberal" problem? And why do this young woman's conservative friends deny the prevalence of rape until she attests to it making it uncomfortable to argue against her?
Male domination is as old as culture itself and thankfully in our modern world it is not as absolute and horrific as it once was. But as has been explained many, many times by countless women, rape is a form of control and domination. It is not a sex act.
It can only be seriously addressed by ongoing work to truly achieve equality in society. And no, I'm not talking about lifting the glass ceiling. Educating boys to respect women is not a personal thing best left to parents. We educate boys to perform well in school and to follow proper forms of behavior in many spheres.
We socialize boys to assume the responsibilities of manhood, and unfortunately the socialization process often overcomes the education process. We expose boys to video games where rape is part of the game. We make movies for their viewing pleasure where rape and abuse is all too often part of the story line.
And now the president claims that power and money entitle him to engage in sexual assault and other men cheer him on. When challenged about this some men argue there is no "legal causation" between all this and rape. When women examine the issue they find ample social influence. And the difference is irrelevant to the women who arevictims.
Male domination is as old as culture itself and thankfully in our modern world it is not as absolute and horrific as it once was. But as has been explained many, many times by countless women, rape is a form of control and domination. It is not a sex act.
It can only be seriously addressed by ongoing work to truly achieve equality in society. And no, I'm not talking about lifting the glass ceiling. Educating boys to respect women is not a personal thing best left to parents. We educate boys to perform well in school and to follow proper forms of behavior in many spheres.
We socialize boys to assume the responsibilities of manhood, and unfortunately the socialization process often overcomes the education process. We expose boys to video games where rape is part of the game. We make movies for their viewing pleasure where rape and abuse is all too often part of the story line.
And now the president claims that power and money entitle him to engage in sexual assault and other men cheer him on. When challenged about this some men argue there is no "legal causation" between all this and rape. When women examine the issue they find ample social influence. And the difference is irrelevant to the women who arevictims.
18
Your story is sad on many levels. I've heard my conservative male friends lecture me on its her fault b/c she was drinking.
There is a line in The Philadelphia Story where Jimmy Stewart tells a worried Kate Hepburn the next day after she was drunk that yes he found her desirable but there are rules governing such things and he simply put her to bed and left.
I'm sad you found someone that didn't know the rules. I know those rules and hope most men know better. Your body was violated regardless of your ability to say no and no was the only thing to say in that situation.
I don't know you but I love you for the courage it took to write this letter. You're a strong woman.
There is a line in The Philadelphia Story where Jimmy Stewart tells a worried Kate Hepburn the next day after she was drunk that yes he found her desirable but there are rules governing such things and he simply put her to bed and left.
I'm sad you found someone that didn't know the rules. I know those rules and hope most men know better. Your body was violated regardless of your ability to say no and no was the only thing to say in that situation.
I don't know you but I love you for the courage it took to write this letter. You're a strong woman.
14
Yes, that's precisely it: "I have seen zero pieces from the center-right on the rights of sexual-assault victims." In the pooled opinions from the left and right about university sexual assault that were published in this paper yesterday, for instance, not a single conservative commentator expressed concern for the victims. Until very recently, university rapists were almost never charged or convicted. Now, as noted here, many if not most rapists are still not charged or convicted. In other words, virtually the only mistake made throughout most of our long and unhappy history vis-à-vis university rape was that the rapist got off. The rapists themselves were essentially never denied due process because they were essentially never charged. And yet conservative Republican commentators do not have a thing to say. Talk about being the party of misogyny and violence. Thank you, Bret, for including this brave letter here. The recent correction in how universities address this is the first time that this abysmal pattern has been broken. Is it an over-correction? I don't know but suspect not given our long and sad history.
12
I was once in college, got drunk and was brought home by a male friend who put me in bed, and left my apartment. He was taught that sex involves a willing, participating and alert partner. Anything less is rape. That should not be hard to learn by anyone.
12
Whether there is evidence or not of what she claims, we should not be dismissive of what this individual went through. However, she shouldn't be dismissive either of injustice: "So yes, some boys have been kicked out of college unjustly, or put through a bad system and been traumatized by it."
Can you imagine your life ruined forever because of an unjust claim? Your career over before it started. You, forever, branded a sex offender. The system is almost Kafkaesque. I'm sorry, we need to create a system that's fair and just to both the accused and the accuser. We must never abandon due process in our nation. After all, isn't that what Trump has tried to do to immigrants and others?
Can you imagine your life ruined forever because of an unjust claim? Your career over before it started. You, forever, branded a sex offender. The system is almost Kafkaesque. I'm sorry, we need to create a system that's fair and just to both the accused and the accuser. We must never abandon due process in our nation. After all, isn't that what Trump has tried to do to immigrants and others?
13
I find it illuminating that Stephens pro-Devos column is entitled hyperbolically "ends campus witch hunt" and the one where the female victim speaks is a "survivors story" as if the actual numbers of what occurs and the required emphasis that should be brought is the inverse of what reality tells us is the case. Or is it the case there are 90+% falsely convicted men vs few actual sexual assaults? I think not
4
A lot is missing here. 1) Why can't colleges refer rape cases to law enforcement and have a rape kit done? 2) Why does this country and its police departments do so little with rape kits, and rarely even processes them? 3) Could the incapacity of drunken victims have been enhanced or even caused by date rape drugs, which are pretty common? Following up on that, if a victim is drugged, why is it her problem or not the perpetrator? 4) Recent studies tell us that most rapes are perpetrated by a small group of rapists. If rape kits were processed, if prosecutors took sex assault seriously, then the relatively small number of rapists would be in prison and the sexual assault rate in this country would decline. 5) Change the culture? The culture has changed. Women are in every sphere of life now. What hasn't changed is law enforcement and the justice system. I encourage young women considering a legal career to pursue prosecution. I believe if we entered this realm in droves that the "cultural change" regarding sexual assault and its companion issue, domestic violence, would change quickly. This would benefit us all!
7
College students are not special. If they are under 21 and drink on campus they should face campus discipline and a referral to the police. A little will of enforcement can create a lot of deterence.
7
My declared potential biases are that I am a man and also a liberal. From previous comments I say that ignoring man vs woman sexual biology is a non starter. They are not the same. I also agree with many comments that changing culture of boys through education is a large part of the answer. There is education for women safety to be had too. Alcohol as a great facilitator should be enemy number one.
While this lady had an aweful injustice committed against her, remember that many people get robbed and killed, and the perpetrators go free if there is no evidence. That does not mean we put people in jail because of the suspicion only. Rape with no witnesses is a similar situation, and it is better to let 5 rapists go free than to ruin one innocent person's life, specially when the rules of behavior may become blurred when both man and woman are drunk. This has always been the justice standard in our country.
While this lady had an aweful injustice committed against her, remember that many people get robbed and killed, and the perpetrators go free if there is no evidence. That does not mean we put people in jail because of the suspicion only. Rape with no witnesses is a similar situation, and it is better to let 5 rapists go free than to ruin one innocent person's life, specially when the rules of behavior may become blurred when both man and woman are drunk. This has always been the justice standard in our country.
8
The problem law enforcement faces is when there are two incapacitated (highly inebriated) people involved, neither of whom was of a sound mind to be responsible for legal purposes like making an offer and consenting to it.
6
Law enforcement should investigate rapes, and criminal courts should try these cases.
We do not expect colleges to investigate murders. Why are we letting our criminal justice system wash its hands of campus rapes and shifting the responsibility for rape cases to college administrators?
That said, while the criminal justice system should investigate and prosecute all rapes, college disciplinary proceedings should proceed separately against students accused of rape or sexual assault.
The constitutional safeguards (presumption of innocence, due process, proof beyond reasonable doubt) do not necessarily apply in a private disciplinary proceeding. For example, if a business suspects an employee of embezzlement, it will dismiss the employee even on circumstantial evidence that might not hold up in court.
A college should be free to expel students when there is a whiff of scandal or the stench of dishonorable behavior. Students (like business employees) need to avoid compromising situations and the appearance of wrongdoing. Colleges presumably will seek to treat students fairly as they do not want to acquire a reputation for injustice.
We do not expect colleges to investigate murders. Why are we letting our criminal justice system wash its hands of campus rapes and shifting the responsibility for rape cases to college administrators?
That said, while the criminal justice system should investigate and prosecute all rapes, college disciplinary proceedings should proceed separately against students accused of rape or sexual assault.
The constitutional safeguards (presumption of innocence, due process, proof beyond reasonable doubt) do not necessarily apply in a private disciplinary proceeding. For example, if a business suspects an employee of embezzlement, it will dismiss the employee even on circumstantial evidence that might not hold up in court.
A college should be free to expel students when there is a whiff of scandal or the stench of dishonorable behavior. Students (like business employees) need to avoid compromising situations and the appearance of wrongdoing. Colleges presumably will seek to treat students fairly as they do not want to acquire a reputation for injustice.
7
The problem is that the police do NOT investigate rapes or prosecute rapists unless the rapist and victim are strangers to each other. A rape victim cannot rely on the police or the courts for justice.
3
If there is food and music at my house and people coming in, it's easy to see there is a party. It means I want to throw a party and have fun. That doesn't give you the right to walk into my house, eat my food and dance, unless I specifically invited you. Would anyone argue otherwise?
If a woman dresses in a "provocative" way, dances and drinks, it means she wants to have fun, maybe even sex. But unless she specifically asks you, her provocation is not an blank invitation to avail yourself of what she has. Yes, she may be offering, but she's not offering it directly and specifically to you. Why is that so hard to accept?
If a woman dresses in a "provocative" way, dances and drinks, it means she wants to have fun, maybe even sex. But unless she specifically asks you, her provocation is not an blank invitation to avail yourself of what she has. Yes, she may be offering, but she's not offering it directly and specifically to you. Why is that so hard to accept?
6
The place I think we should start to address the sexual assault problem, especially on college campuses, is by addressing the drinking problem. Clear-headed, wide awake rapes are rare. Cases like this one, in which alcohol or other drugs impair one or both parties, are far more common.
All young people need to be taught about the potential bad consequences of using alcohol or drugs. Girls, you can end up sexually assaulted, with STDs, or even pregnant. Boys, you're less likely to get raped but more likely to get in fights. Both genders can get robbed or have their identities stolen. Both can drive drunk or get in a car with a drunk driver. Both can do something they will later regret. Both need to understand that if they choose to drink or do drugs, they must be prepared to accept the possible consequences of that decision.
We need to address the causes of the culture of binge drinking, from draconian laws that don't allow young people to learn their alcohol tolerance gradually and in public, to media portrayals that glorify inebriation and emphasize fun while rarely showing tragedy, to the unwillingness to recognize that drunkenness often leads to unwanted, or at least unwise, sex, and girls are especially vulnerable. We need to teach our young people to stay out of dangerous situations.
None of that means that predators should not be caught and punished. It means that they would be less successful at their bad intentions without the help of inebriation.
All young people need to be taught about the potential bad consequences of using alcohol or drugs. Girls, you can end up sexually assaulted, with STDs, or even pregnant. Boys, you're less likely to get raped but more likely to get in fights. Both genders can get robbed or have their identities stolen. Both can drive drunk or get in a car with a drunk driver. Both can do something they will later regret. Both need to understand that if they choose to drink or do drugs, they must be prepared to accept the possible consequences of that decision.
We need to address the causes of the culture of binge drinking, from draconian laws that don't allow young people to learn their alcohol tolerance gradually and in public, to media portrayals that glorify inebriation and emphasize fun while rarely showing tragedy, to the unwillingness to recognize that drunkenness often leads to unwanted, or at least unwise, sex, and girls are especially vulnerable. We need to teach our young people to stay out of dangerous situations.
None of that means that predators should not be caught and punished. It means that they would be less successful at their bad intentions without the help of inebriation.
14
And girls should be taught that they cannot have male friends, because male friends will get drunk and use being drunk as an excuse to rape them.
2
Not at all. I've got lots of male friends, some I've been friends with for 30 years. None has ever gotten drunk and tried to rape me. Nor have they driven drunk. I don't get messed up on alcohol or drugs, so why would I want to spend my time with people who do? What matters about one's friends is their maturity and character, not their gender.
2
No, they should be taught to be wary of drunk males, and not be friends with males that regularly get drunk, period. Most women already know that.
Actually most men know to steer clear of drunk males, they could start a fight.
Actually most men know to steer clear of drunk males, they could start a fight.
As a survivor of rape and sexual abuse, I can testify that these criminal acts steal your life and crush your soul. If these criminals are stigmatized and alienated by our society or their peers, so be it. They won't cower or recoil when a stranger extends a hand in their direction. They'll never feel the inescapable pain pulsing forever through my heart, that infect every fiber of my being. They won't know about their starring role in the movie in my mind, haunting every waking moment, and never gets turned off.
For every individual who is stigmatized by a rape charge, or unjustly accused, there are many more victims trying to reclaim and rebuild a life. Let's be real, our culture offers few resources to restore and reaffirm the humanity of violent crime victims.
The Education Secretary is treading on dangerous ground that will further harm and isolate the victims of sexual assault, and I think that's a crime too.
For every individual who is stigmatized by a rape charge, or unjustly accused, there are many more victims trying to reclaim and rebuild a life. Let's be real, our culture offers few resources to restore and reaffirm the humanity of violent crime victims.
The Education Secretary is treading on dangerous ground that will further harm and isolate the victims of sexual assault, and I think that's a crime too.
134
I don't know any evidence that says that there are many more rape victims than unjustified accusations. If that's all you have, you've got nothing. and where do you get the ability to judge which is worse? The criminal law has always proceeded on the basis that it's better to have 100 guilty go free than to have one innocent locked up. Ergo, the presumption of innocence. I'm not ready to give that up to suit your imagined statistics.
3
Roy,
No matter how vile the crime the Constitution guarantees
Due Process.
There is a better way to do handle the prosecution of these crimes
and providing therapy for the victims.
No matter how vile the crime the Constitution guarantees
Due Process.
There is a better way to do handle the prosecution of these crimes
and providing therapy for the victims.
4
"If these criminals are stigmatized..."
The key word being criminals. Is stigmatization allowed when caused by an administrative hearing outcome?
The key word being criminals. Is stigmatization allowed when caused by an administrative hearing outcome?
2
Another underlying aspect of the current situation is the effect of binge drinking on college life, the reason being the drinking age is now 21. This wasn't the case when I was in college. I went to college in a city, and our drinking revolved around going out to bars that catered to the college crowd. While I do remember a few kids really over-doing it, binge drinking was really looked down upon. It just wasn't cool to get falling-down drunk. We went out, we shared a pitcher or two, we went home.
As I understand it, blacking out is now a way of life for most college kids. At the tender age of 18, or 19, or 20 - when they have drank enough to black out - they are in no position to make decisions regarding casual sex.
When the drinking age was raised to 21, one major reason cited was drinking and driving. I believe we have matured more as a society where drunk driving is not taken lightly, not a subject of stand-up comics or laughed off as something we all do. I believe we need to re-visit the legal drinking age and lower it so college kids aren't tempted to drink all they will want in one sitting because going to a pub is illegal for them.
As I understand it, blacking out is now a way of life for most college kids. At the tender age of 18, or 19, or 20 - when they have drank enough to black out - they are in no position to make decisions regarding casual sex.
When the drinking age was raised to 21, one major reason cited was drinking and driving. I believe we have matured more as a society where drunk driving is not taken lightly, not a subject of stand-up comics or laughed off as something we all do. I believe we need to re-visit the legal drinking age and lower it so college kids aren't tempted to drink all they will want in one sitting because going to a pub is illegal for them.
6
Not sure the problem is related to the legal age issue.
The UK has a serious "drinking until you black out" culture as well, and the legal drinking age there is 18. And 16 and 17 year olds can drink beer, wine or cider with a meal if it is bought by and they are accompanied by an adult.
The UK has a serious "drinking until you black out" culture as well, and the legal drinking age there is 18. And 16 and 17 year olds can drink beer, wine or cider with a meal if it is bought by and they are accompanied by an adult.
1
From the end of prohibition until the early '70s, all but a handful of states had a minimum drinking age of 21. In a few states beer or beer and wine were legal at a younger age while spirits were not. From 1969 to 1976 thirty states joined the handful that already had a drinking age of 18 or 19. Over the next few years, a few states raised the age again. Then, In 1984, out of concern about highway fatalities among young people, Congress passed the National Minimum Drinking Age Act, which required states to raise their ages for purchase and public possession to 21 by October 1986 or lose 10% of their federal highway funds. By mid-1988 all the states had complied. The period when a majority of the states had a drinking age lower than 21 only lasted for about 12 to 15 years, not even a generation.
Also, can we stop talking about this as though it's a campus-restricted problem? It's not like these things don't happen among young people who also go to parties (shocker!) but who never go to college, or even among recent college graduates. Arguably the situation is even worse for them, as there's no well resourced institution to turn to.
7
And rape happens to females of all ages, whether they attend parties or not.
7
Social mores evolve slowly at a generational pace. What we are seeing here is an accelerated rate of change that has left our Millennials in an uncertain place. Traditional social rules that we Boomers grew up with no longer apply.
The old taboos that kept us relatively anchored, even in the swinging sixties and seventies have, by now, dissolved. We, who reveled in the newness of freedom and hedonism, have given birth to a generation whose understanding of freedom and pleasure is uncharted and devoid of context. The result: social, moral, cultural dislocation and distress. Sex divorced from humanity becomes assault. They know not what they do. They use alcohol to become insensate.
This is the bitter aftermath of the personal liberation movement that we began in the 1960's. Society will have to play catch-up until we can comprehend our brave new world.
The old taboos that kept us relatively anchored, even in the swinging sixties and seventies have, by now, dissolved. We, who reveled in the newness of freedom and hedonism, have given birth to a generation whose understanding of freedom and pleasure is uncharted and devoid of context. The result: social, moral, cultural dislocation and distress. Sex divorced from humanity becomes assault. They know not what they do. They use alcohol to become insensate.
This is the bitter aftermath of the personal liberation movement that we began in the 1960's. Society will have to play catch-up until we can comprehend our brave new world.
5
"I didn’t learn till later that incapacitated people can’t consent." The heart of the problem is that this sentence could have been written by both the victim and the accused. There is not enough (and can never be enough) education on the subject of consent. Every freshman should be required to sit through a class on the subject before setting foot on campus and there should be a mandatory annual refresher for everyone on campus.
10
I am a former police officer who spent years investigating sexual assaults, mostly against minors and children. In many cases, I believed that the victim had been assaulted, but that there was not enough evidence to file charges or to make an arrest. The challenge in many cases is that these events occur in a place where only the victim and perpetrator are present and there are no other witnesses. There is no easy answers, but one thing to keep in mind is this: Sexual assault is a crime, and it should be investigated by the police. Police officers are (in effective departments) trained in evidence collection, interview techniques and the law. In my opinion, University staff without law enforcement credentials should not be involved in investigating, what is after all, a crime. A simple solution would be to make University officials and staff mandatory reporters, which means that if they receive the report of a sexual assault, they MUST report it to law enforcement for investigation. Let law enforcement and the legal system conduct the investigation, adjudicate it, and school penalties can flow from there. As an example, when a teacher believed that a child may have been assaulted, they immediately contacted my department, and we conducted the investigation and passed the information on to the prosecutor. The results of our criminal justice system often are not perfect, but it is designed to protect the rights of both the victim and the accused.
196
Great idea. Brock Stevens received a mandatory lifetime sex offender registration for sexual assault, hardly just a slap on the wrist.
1
Thank you. I agree entirely.
agree 100%. university administrators need to get out of the business of adjudicating sexual assault cases. I am an ER physician with some training in sexual assault examination. When I am faced with a victim possible sexual assault in the ER, I call the SANE nurse [sexual assault nurse examiner], a person who is only job is to do thorough examination, and collect evidence that can presented in court. I also call the police to come to the ER and speak with the victim/ family, and make a report. The police and SANE nurse are called at the same time.
What we don't do in the ER, is to call the hospital administrator to adjudicate a possible case of sexual assault.
Plain and simple, University administrators need to get out of the way of trained professional who should handle sexual assault cases, and should they receive a report of possible rape, they should be mandated to that report that to the police and if any college student think she or she is a victim of sexual assault, call 911, and go to the ER.
What we don't do in the ER, is to call the hospital administrator to adjudicate a possible case of sexual assault.
Plain and simple, University administrators need to get out of the way of trained professional who should handle sexual assault cases, and should they receive a report of possible rape, they should be mandated to that report that to the police and if any college student think she or she is a victim of sexual assault, call 911, and go to the ER.
3
Wow. Excellent. EXCELLENT.
I have some sense of the effort it must have taken for you to arrive at the point where you could write this letter. I commend your bravery. THANK YOU. You are a warrior in the deepest sense of the term.
I completely understand why your name has been omitted.
I wished I lived in a society where women were respected, where the author of this letter would be celebrated for her intelligence, her clarity, and her eloquence. I wish the author could proudly include her name.
I have some sense of the effort it must have taken for you to arrive at the point where you could write this letter. I commend your bravery. THANK YOU. You are a warrior in the deepest sense of the term.
I completely understand why your name has been omitted.
I wished I lived in a society where women were respected, where the author of this letter would be celebrated for her intelligence, her clarity, and her eloquence. I wish the author could proudly include her name.
53
"What can be done for the next girl who wakes up with her clothes inside out and her world ripped apart?"
Sadly nothing. Rape is a "he said she said" crime where about 8% of allegations are made up. If we accept a lower standard of proof, innocents get false convicted or in Title IX cases innocents will get thrown out of college. The present system allows sadistic creeps to carry on their abuse. Its a horrible situation but not one that can be solved justly.
Sadly nothing. Rape is a "he said she said" crime where about 8% of allegations are made up. If we accept a lower standard of proof, innocents get false convicted or in Title IX cases innocents will get thrown out of college. The present system allows sadistic creeps to carry on their abuse. Its a horrible situation but not one that can be solved justly.
1
What can be done? Better education about the danger of binge drinking.
2
Creeps know that in "he said, she said" situation, the creep will get away with rape. Creeps also think they are "innocent" because they see nothing wrong with forcing sex on women - they don't think of it as "rape", they think of it as "getting some" or "scoring". If the woman objects, he will yell at her that she is "frigid".
5
I am so sorry this happened to you. Thank you for educating the readers of this column. Your point about this being a cultural and moral problem is correct, but that is not an excuse for the policy makers to ignore the harms sexual assaults do to our society. My point is this writer was not the only victim of her sexual assault. Her family and friends, and I dare say her rapists, were all damaged by the rape.
If one commenter says something to the effect about the writer being at fault on account of being drunk, I'm going to preemptively call them a jerk. The fault lies completely with the rapist. I'll repeat this, rape is the rapist's fault. Our society's lack of compassion and self interest in response to rape is wrong.
Trump and DeVos are cruel, ineffective and incompetent and will do nothing to make anything great. DeVos may be nice to a few individuals by paying for their education and helping their families, but her moral code is corrupt and her fellow Trump supporting evangelicals are breaking us.
If one commenter says something to the effect about the writer being at fault on account of being drunk, I'm going to preemptively call them a jerk. The fault lies completely with the rapist. I'll repeat this, rape is the rapist's fault. Our society's lack of compassion and self interest in response to rape is wrong.
Trump and DeVos are cruel, ineffective and incompetent and will do nothing to make anything great. DeVos may be nice to a few individuals by paying for their education and helping their families, but her moral code is corrupt and her fellow Trump supporting evangelicals are breaking us.
18
No one is claiming rape isn,t the rapist,s fault, anymore than anyone would claim theft isn't the thief's fault.
The question is whether someone can be punished for theft without any evidence, just by claiming theft, and whether it is reasonable or not to advise people not to make theft easy for thieves by not taking reasonable precautions against it, like locking your doors.
If a man gets drunk and invites a woman he meets in a bar to his place, and he wakes up with his valuables missing, whose fault is that?
The question is whether someone can be punished for theft without any evidence, just by claiming theft, and whether it is reasonable or not to advise people not to make theft easy for thieves by not taking reasonable precautions against it, like locking your doors.
If a man gets drunk and invites a woman he meets in a bar to his place, and he wakes up with his valuables missing, whose fault is that?
Here's what I don't understand; if you got yourself intoxicated, how do you know if you had consensual sex before blacking out?
Young men, use your phones. Video evidence may be all you have to protect yourself from someone else's regret.
Young men, use your phones. Video evidence may be all you have to protect yourself from someone else's regret.
25
Women are told from a very early age that they do not, no cannot be responsible for ensuring their own safety. There also seem to be a very sexist belief that people with 2 X-chromosomes can get as drugged/drunk as they can, even to the point of death, and that is completely okay. But a person with a Y-chromosome needs to keep every whit about them, which means no drinking/drugs for them so they can professionally analyze every situation.
I told my son to leave parties where young women were drinking as it would end very badly for him. I told him never to touch or even go near a young women who appeared drunk/drugged. I did tell him to call her parents or a sober friend to come and take her home asap.
We do a huge disservice to our girls by NOT telling them they ARE capable of ensuring their own safety in as much as any of us can.
I told my son to leave parties where young women were drinking as it would end very badly for him. I told him never to touch or even go near a young women who appeared drunk/drugged. I did tell him to call her parents or a sober friend to come and take her home asap.
We do a huge disservice to our girls by NOT telling them they ARE capable of ensuring their own safety in as much as any of us can.
1
Intoxicated people cannot legally consent. Better advice to young men would be to not have sex if there's been any drinking involved and to always ask explicitly for consent when everyone sober.
5
It appears you don't understand the definition of "consent" - if one is drunk enough to not remember what happens, by definition one cannot consent. So if your young man wants to protect himself, he shouldn't have sex with drunk women. Period. It's that simple.
10
This story reinforces a point I truly believe and I have written several times: by assuming rape victims are lying, we give cover to drunk college boys of privilege. How do people of the Right, people who take the support of evangelicals, support violence and alcohol abuse? Is it to help future GOP donors? I doubt DeVos thinks about poor black men falsely accused when she wants to clear the names of rapists.
22
Please do not count me as any sort of defender of DeVos or Trump, but your statement presumes that all accused are guilty. That's the problem. Legally and morally, we have to assume the opposite and then ask that it be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. The "preponderance of the evidence" standard shifts the burden to the excused to prove something be alleged did not happen. Where would the evidence of innocence come from?
5
"It seems to me that conservatives and mainstream liberals have abdicated concern about sexual assault to the far left."
The guidelines were Obama's and Joe Biden continually speaks out on the issue of campus sexual assault. I'm really puzzled by this statement.
The guidelines were Obama's and Joe Biden continually speaks out on the issue of campus sexual assault. I'm really puzzled by this statement.
12
The author might think Obama and Biden are the far left. Many conservatives do.
THE SURVIVOR'S LETTER Is a close look at the suffering survivors confronted in the past, being stigmatized for upsetting the sensibilities of others. Tragically, the event occurred prior to the existence of DNA evidence, which is probative. Just as women still earn significant less than men for doing the same work, they are allotted less credibility then men when they complain about abuse, be it sexual harassment on the job or rape. They are, by some accounts, disempowered--while not in the same way as children who have fewer rights due to their status as minors--but more in the biblical sense of males being the heads of households and the other members of the household being counted as part of a man's property. I have little confidence in anything Betsy DeVos does or says and even less respect. Here she presides over a program involving trillions of dollars and showed during her Senate hearings, that she had no experience in finance. Whence her interest in campus rape? Surely not from expertise. DeVos is expertise-averse. But she'll thank you for any question you ask. Just don't expect a coherent answer showing any analysis of the question. She just says, I'll work with you. How is that possible when there's nothing to work with? DeVos's critique of the handling of cases of sexual abuse on campus is similarly a barren landscape, as campus security does not have the training or expertise necessary to investigate cases of sexual abuse adequately. Stupid is as...
8
DNA evidence only identifies the man who deposited the evidence. Men can always claim the woman consented, and they always do.
1
By the time a rape victim is ready to tell her story, there's rarely any evidence left. The shock, fear, pain, and feeling of degradation make you want to hole up in a locked room and never see daylight again. The last thing you want is to submit your violated body to a medical exam by a stranger. Universities take advantage of this in the guise of helping victims make a choice that's right for them. If the victim doesn't have an exam and police report to back up her claim, all she's left with are her accusations and her nightmares. And another rapist goes free.
10
What occurred to me was the Duke lacrosse matter.
Whereby Richard Spencer, the alt right, white nationalist, and Stephen Miller, a Trump senior advisor who believes in racial superiority, tortured a woman who accused the men of raping her. While it was later thought the rape did not occur, it remains extremely disturbing that in effect Spencer, and Miller used this situation to champion their own extreme right wing, racist ideologies.
Whereby Richard Spencer, the alt right, white nationalist, and Stephen Miller, a Trump senior advisor who believes in racial superiority, tortured a woman who accused the men of raping her. While it was later thought the rape did not occur, it remains extremely disturbing that in effect Spencer, and Miller used this situation to champion their own extreme right wing, racist ideologies.
3
I have many unanswered questions about the Duke lacrosse matter. I would venture that when you make an accusation of sexual assault you had best never have told a lie in your life or been abused by anyone before the assault in question.
3
Please get your facts straight. It was Mike Nifong who falsely accused Duke Lacrosse players. Rape did not occur, period. Whether Spencer and Miller used this situation to champion their horrid causes doesn't make it right to falsely accuse anyone of anything.
Please educate yourself on this travesty. I suggest reading "Until Proven Innocent: Political Correctness and the Shameful Injustices of the Duke Lacrosse Rape Case" by KC Johnson and Stuart Taylor.
Please educate yourself on this travesty. I suggest reading "Until Proven Innocent: Political Correctness and the Shameful Injustices of the Duke Lacrosse Rape Case" by KC Johnson and Stuart Taylor.
1
Rapists and those who commit sexual assault should be punished to the full extent of the law. The accused should be afforded due process and the presumption of innocence. Few disagree with any of these propositions. And few will fail to be moved by this young woman's heartbreaking story. That said, details are critical. The young woman was blackout drunk and doesn't remember what happened. Was the young man also blackout drunk? Was she passed out? (To black out is not to pass out). The most important line: "I didn’t learn till later that incapacitated people can’t consent." Certainly no one would argue that sex with an unconscious person is legal. But unclear and varied definitions of when or if a person is incapable of 'consent' on campuses is a big part of this problem.
10
What a heart breaking and powerful story! My heart goes out to this young woman as she forcefully states there are no easy answers to this epidemic of campus sexual assault. My hope is that we as a nation have the courage to look for solutions for preventing and eradicating all sexual assaults.
2
“Now, should we treat women as independent agents, responsible for themselves? Of course. But being responsible has nothing to do with being raped. Women don’t get raped because they were drinking or took drugs. Women do not get raped because they weren’t careful enough. Women get raped because someone raped them.”
― Jessica Valenti
“Rape is one of the most terrible crimes on earth and it happens every few minutes. The problem with groups who deal with rape is that they try to educate women about how to defend themselves. What really needs to be done is teaching men not to rape. Go to the source and start there.”
― Kurt Cobain
― Jessica Valenti
“Rape is one of the most terrible crimes on earth and it happens every few minutes. The problem with groups who deal with rape is that they try to educate women about how to defend themselves. What really needs to be done is teaching men not to rape. Go to the source and start there.”
― Kurt Cobain
212
Women need to know they CAN defend themselves and are smart enough to identify and avoid high risk situations. Men also need to know how to identify and avoid high risk situations. It does not get much clearer than telling young men not to touch any female who has had a sip of alcohol or ingested a drug regardless of what the female is saying. In fact, to be safest, males should get up and leave when females are becoming intoxicated.
2
Is accepting an escort home or an invitation to have something to eat a "high risk situation"? It shouldn't be, but men will turn the most ordinary and sober encounter into an opportunity to rape.
3
We have a middle ground for murder, where we prosecute people for murder, without blaming the victim, but we have some semblance of due process, and we don't openly advocate putting innocent people away for murder. Could we do the same with rape?
3
Nobody advocates putting innocent men away for rape.
1
Once again, Stephens shows why he's the cream of the NYT op-ed crop. No name calling. No hyperbole. No snark. No cheap shots. The initial column was also well done, with a point of view that was thoughtfully presented and defended. Here, we get a fuller picture, with Stephens having enough smarts to get out of the way and let this person say what needs to be said better than most anyone else could possibly say it. There is, actually, room for a middle ground in this country and on opinion pages, and it is good that Stephens reminds us that there is, actually, much we can agree on, regardless of political persuasion.
13
The problem here from a criminal law standpoint is that, although a rape may have occurred, there appears to be no competent evidence to prove it in a court of law. The fact that a rape occurred would have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. However, the victim has admittedly no memory of being raped. And the accused would undoubtedly deny he had raped the victim. There also appears to be no forensic evidence (e.g., sperm) to establish that a rape took place. In short, there appears to be virtually no chance of a prosecutor getting a conviction for rape under the circumstances, much less a conviction that could stand up on appeal.
8
A woman's testimony alone is competent evidence, except that people in this culture won't grant a woman the same credibility as a man. And so rapists walk free.
3
@Enough - Perhaps you missed the sentence "However, the victim has admittedly no memory of being raped." How can someone, male or female, credibly testify to something that they cannot remember?
1
Why is hookup culture acceptable? Isn't hookup culture really rape culture?
Why is mere consent considered sufficient? Why shouldn't we raise our kids, boys as well as girls, to expect and demand commitment in addition to consent?
Why is binge drinking acceptable? Isn't binge drinking really serious substance abuse, a sign of an addiction problem? Why shouldn't we instead expose our kids, starting in high school, in settings with family or friends, and meals, to very modest amounts of alcohol, and name binge drinking as the mark of a serious illness?
When are we going to learn that we should never have thrown out the great truths of the 500s B.C.E. -- that the Buddha, Socrates, the Jewish prophets, Confucius, and Lao Tze, were right and were right for all time?
When will we finally come to our senses and consign the French Structuralists of the last century to the moral dustbin?
Why is mere consent considered sufficient? Why shouldn't we raise our kids, boys as well as girls, to expect and demand commitment in addition to consent?
Why is binge drinking acceptable? Isn't binge drinking really serious substance abuse, a sign of an addiction problem? Why shouldn't we instead expose our kids, starting in high school, in settings with family or friends, and meals, to very modest amounts of alcohol, and name binge drinking as the mark of a serious illness?
When are we going to learn that we should never have thrown out the great truths of the 500s B.C.E. -- that the Buddha, Socrates, the Jewish prophets, Confucius, and Lao Tze, were right and were right for all time?
When will we finally come to our senses and consign the French Structuralists of the last century to the moral dustbin?
6
In the charmed older film "High Society" Grace Kelly wakes up after being blind drunk the night before and asks Frank Sinatra, who played a thoughtful but quite confident rogue, what happened after he escorted her back to her room. He not only credibly claimed that nothing happened, but also credibly, said that she was in no condition to consent and "there are rules about such things." Regardless of how real life actually plays out, there are now, and always have been rules--these rules are called "common decency."
I was fortunate enough in college to have been foolishly drunk and left a bar with the captain of the football team, and after finding myself in a hideously compromising position in his room, resisted his advances--and he very nicely pulled himself together and walked me back to my dorm. There is a part of me that feels I should thank this now senior citizen weekly, but then I think about how low the bar has been set that I would be thanking him for not raping me.
Like so many of society's ills, our rape culture will only be solved, one decent person at a time. Think about the horrific story not long ago about the infamous Stanford swimmer, who, after being caught trying to rape a drunk woman, was defended vigorously by his father in the now well-known statement to the effect of: leave my kid alone--all this fuss over 20 minutes "of action!"
Teach your children well--please.
I was fortunate enough in college to have been foolishly drunk and left a bar with the captain of the football team, and after finding myself in a hideously compromising position in his room, resisted his advances--and he very nicely pulled himself together and walked me back to my dorm. There is a part of me that feels I should thank this now senior citizen weekly, but then I think about how low the bar has been set that I would be thanking him for not raping me.
Like so many of society's ills, our rape culture will only be solved, one decent person at a time. Think about the horrific story not long ago about the infamous Stanford swimmer, who, after being caught trying to rape a drunk woman, was defended vigorously by his father in the now well-known statement to the effect of: leave my kid alone--all this fuss over 20 minutes "of action!"
Teach your children well--please.
60
This will sound insensitive, but details matter, and vocabulary matters. Alcohol blackout means that you are no longer recording clear memories of your surroundings that can be recalled the next day. It is quite possible that you are NOT obviously, falling down drunk. In my college days, I was noted for being "able to hold my booze" and appear relatively sober, yet have no memory at all of what I said or did the next morning. A few years later, I managed to drive all the way across metro Denver and successfully reach my apartment, a distance of roughly 15 miles. But the odometer on my car showed I'd driven 35, and my buddies told me that I had looked "sober enough" when I left the bar. To this day, I have no idea where I went, how I got lost, and how I eventually managed to find my way home across a city where I'd only lived for a few weeks. The only way I knew that I hadn't hit anything was that my car was intact and unstained (and perfectly parked, by the way).
I tell this story partly to elicit sympathy for the devil, and partly to elicit sympathy for the devil's victims. Who is culpable when one blacked out but lucid person has sex with another one? I don't know if this is what happened in this case, but the loose use of the word blackout, and its use as a synonym for "obviously incapacitated" has to stop.
The other thing that has to stop is the high-intensity, drink-to-get- drunk culture on college campuses. That is the real culprit.
I tell this story partly to elicit sympathy for the devil, and partly to elicit sympathy for the devil's victims. Who is culpable when one blacked out but lucid person has sex with another one? I don't know if this is what happened in this case, but the loose use of the word blackout, and its use as a synonym for "obviously incapacitated" has to stop.
The other thing that has to stop is the high-intensity, drink-to-get- drunk culture on college campuses. That is the real culprit.
109
Yes = I have a granddaughter who just started college as a Freshman. I think she knows enough not to go binge drinking or leave a drink with a date while she goes to the women's room. Of course we have sympathy for the woman who wrote this letter, but if anything has received a lot of attention in recent times for college students, it is not to binge drink. Everyone has agency over their behavior. I understand the hormones are pumping and college away from home produces all kinds of behavior we would never repeat in our adult years. If you were smart enough to get to college, you are smart enough to think about how to handle yourself out on the town. Due process for the accused seems to me an of course, right. Colleges appear to be struggling still to get their at together in a ,way that is fair for all.
1
Great comment. Thank you!
1
At my public university long ago, few if any students blacked out drunk, especially when in the company of the opposite sex. We guys talked a lot about sex, but rape was unthinkable. What has happened since then? Have moral standards declined? Perhaps, but one way to avoid this woman's experience is to drink in moderation, if you drink at all. Colleges should pound this home to students, but I doubt if they do so.
7
When I was at UMD College park in the early 80's they had a pub on campus that served the most watered down beer I've ever had. Young men and women could socialise in a safe environment without getting drunk. Now, there are no pubs on campus- kids load up on strong drinks in the dorm rooms before they leave to go out (all booze is now illegal at UMD) to an off campus bar or party. This is not working out- the women are put in a vulnerable position when they go to frat parties and drink until they black out. I say bring back campus social activities with watered down beer. Movie night, and then the pub. We actually had a John Waters movie with the director at an answer / question session- so fun. Can't universities be creative anymore to keep everyone safer?
5
Yes, moral standards have declined. People who from the WWII and Boomer generations voted for a self-admitted sexual predator for President.
7
I have to say that if two adults are drunk, there is no violence or threat, there has been no rape. Both parties engaged in sexual relations they might not have if either were sober. It is not helpful in my opinion to pretend like this sort of thing is the same as having sex by threat or violence. This false equivalence has caused more harm than good for all parties concerned.
49
It's ludicrous to imply drunk people aren't capable of violence.
4
So when a hetero guy wakes up after a drinking binge to find someone had anal intercourse with him, that wasn't rape, by your definition?
4
Are you suggesting that rape isn't a violent act? Or are you suggesting that being drunk means that you can't also be violent? When men, in particular, are drunk, they're not manageable, and they can quickly get angry (bar fights aren't uncommon, after all, and those seem to arise from disputes that one would shrug off if one wasn't inebriated). Most men are stronger than women. Some of them, drunk or not, don't get that when a woman says no—or when she's too drunk to say anything—that means stop. Immediately. Just like a drunk driver slow to put his foot on the brake in time, some drunk men can't stop themselves once they've hit the accelerator. Their will will be done.
What is worse -- that sexually victimized women and men are unable to obtain justice or that false accusations smear reputations? Both ruin lives. We want to prevent either outcome.
Working towards solutions, I believe the writer is correct that social and moral values need to be developed starting from an early age to instill a community understanding of consent. That takes time. And to reinforce such social values we need legal and other institutional responses for behavior that is clearly beyond acceptable bounds.
In some ways I liken this the the behavior change that we have achieved around driving under the influence. While there are laws providing clear bounds, and still people exceed those thresholds, in many segments of society people self regulate to avoid the behavior.
Working towards solutions, I believe the writer is correct that social and moral values need to be developed starting from an early age to instill a community understanding of consent. That takes time. And to reinforce such social values we need legal and other institutional responses for behavior that is clearly beyond acceptable bounds.
In some ways I liken this the the behavior change that we have achieved around driving under the influence. While there are laws providing clear bounds, and still people exceed those thresholds, in many segments of society people self regulate to avoid the behavior.
1
The right seems uniquely focused in its concern about due process. It's only a problem when nice white boys from good homes don't receive it. The same people react with disdain when they hear about poor people roped into the criminal justice system starting when they are children or when they drive while black and are stopped and fined, again and again, beyond their ability to pay so it eventually becomes a criminal offense. Or when their "due process" is being shot and killed by a police officer. And with Jeff Sessions in charge, the disparity is certain to grow larger, not smaller.
10
I think young women need to be warned and be extremely wary. Sometimes one drink, or two, which can seem a reasonable amount to drink, can be laced with a drug and then the effects are as if one had an enormous amount of alcohol. Innocent and inexperienced young girls don't know what hit them. This should be uncommon, it isn't. It happens at college fraternity parties, and it is an evil thing. Rape is an evil act, and premeditated and planned rape of a woman by using a drug to incapacitate her, that's worse than evil. Protect you daughters and all young women, be informed and talk to them about reality. Sometimes it is not pretty.
9
As a rape survivor and a feminist, I have a different and unpopular take on this. I told my story once in these pages, saying that I wish I had not handed over my power by drinking and putting myself in a vulnerable situation. I received a number of comments saying I should be able to get drunk and dance in a miniskirt on a table and not have anyone touch me. So if we accept that premise, why do we have rape awareness and prevention classes at all? Why aren't parents telling their daughters they should be able to get drunk and sashay down a dark alley in a miniskirt, or hang out in a parking garage, and not expect anyone to touch them? In every other area of life, we are told to be responsible: Don't drink and drive. Don't park next to a van. Walk with a friend. Stay away from dark alleys. Walk assertively. Be aware of your surroundings. Have your keys ready. But in the case of campus rape we stubbornly insist that women should be able to drink as much as they want and not get raped. In a perfect world, yes. But I'm not going to endanger myself in the meantime. People thought I was blaming myself, which misses the point entirely. Do I blame my rapist? Absolutely. Do I think I could have prevented it, up to a point? Absolutely. It is not politically incorrect to suggest women have the ability to change the statistics. It's empowering.
394
Thank you for an extremely well-thought-out post. It must have taken some courage to write. And I hope that you have been able to deal effectively with and overcome to the extent you can what happened to you.
6
This form of common sense is unpopular, but I agree with you 100%.
7
Women who embrace sexist culture and patriarchal attitudes are not empowering. Great, women who drink cause their own rapes. Same is true for men? Should men stop drinking to become more "empowered"?
3
Yes, if young women didn't sometimes drink to excess, they would be less likely to be assaulted in these situations. Yes, we need to be doing far more education with young people about keeping themselves safe by making better decisions about drinking.
But unless you have never never never had more to drink than was wise, please don't rush to judgment. (And even if you never drink at all, please have some understanding and compassion.) All it takes is one evening with too many beers and a man who sees his opportunity to "score" with few repercussions. All it takes is one evening with too many beers and a decision to drive home which ends in an accident and someone being killed.
Millions of us have been that person on that evening and, luckily, nothing bad happened.
If you are one of those millions, you should understand that a young woman does not deserve having her body violated, her sanity threatened, and her future jeopardized because she didn't make the right decision about how much she had to drink that night.
But unless you have never never never had more to drink than was wise, please don't rush to judgment. (And even if you never drink at all, please have some understanding and compassion.) All it takes is one evening with too many beers and a man who sees his opportunity to "score" with few repercussions. All it takes is one evening with too many beers and a decision to drive home which ends in an accident and someone being killed.
Millions of us have been that person on that evening and, luckily, nothing bad happened.
If you are one of those millions, you should understand that a young woman does not deserve having her body violated, her sanity threatened, and her future jeopardized because she didn't make the right decision about how much she had to drink that night.
14
Even if you've never drunk to excess, still don't rush to judgement. Yes, it is unwise to drink too much. No, that does not license rape.
It seems bizarre to me that we even have to say this out loud, but apparently there are some people out there confused on the point.
It seems bizarre to me that we even have to say this out loud, but apparently there are some people out there confused on the point.
2
"If you are one of those millions, you should understand that a young woman does not deserve having her body violated, her sanity threatened, and her future jeopardized because she didn't make the right decision about how much she had to drink that night."
But it's okay if a young man doesn't make the right decision about how much had to drink is labeled a rapist and tossed out of school because he had sex with an equally drunken partner?
But it's okay if a young man doesn't make the right decision about how much had to drink is labeled a rapist and tossed out of school because he had sex with an equally drunken partner?
2
Crimes like this are "the purview of the school" because DAs usually will not take the cases because there is insufficient evidence to prosecute them. Under Title IX, colleges have to provide equal access to educational facilities for men and women--this means if you are a woman who has been raped, you have a right to attend classes and go to the dining hall without having to run into the guy who raped you. This is the regime under which colleges have been adjudicating these cases. Of course, the penalty --expulsion--is serious and can and does lead to lawsuits against the colleges. There is no good legal framework here, especially not one that covers binge drinking and a wildly promiscuous campus hookup culture and that usually involves students sitting on disciplinary panels. The only way to fix this, as the letter writer says, is to change the culture--to drill it into people's minds that sex without consent is rape and also to make it seriously uncool to drink to the point of blacking out. But the culture exists to some extent as a protest against the strictures in which young people have had to live their lives in order to get into college in the first place. Adults aren't going to change the culture by fiat--it is a culture of rebellion, of walking very close to the edge. I am an adult and just reading about what goes on on college campuses makes me incredibly nervous--I'm quite sure my 18 year old self would not have been able to handle any part of it.
7
first thank you to the woman who shared, for her courage and thoughtfulness. Thank you to Bret for being open enough to hear her and print it. There are two real serious flaws to be assigned to our colleges which contribute to this scenario on college campuses. One is the basic turning of a blind eye to alcohol abuses. The legal drinking age is 21. Most college students don't turn 21 until sometime during their junior year. Underage drinking is tolerated in most cases unless it is really blatant drunkenness, and very publicly displayed. Fraternities used to have house mothers who lived there & there were rules regarding parties. Yes they could have alcohol in the 60's but they needed parent chaperones at Rutgers to have keg parties. Universities have abdicated policing because they don't want to be rated online as "no fun" places. Many of these attacks happen in dorms. We used to have single sex dorms. Was there some wisdom there?? Young women need to be told over & over that drinking to the point of drunkenness puts a big red target on your back. I have a son & a daughter, I worry for both of them. And a question which nags me in these cases is if the woman is so drunk she cannot give consent and is not responsible for her behavior, are we certain that a young man might never otherwise do what is done while drunk? He is responsible for his drunken decisions/actions but not a woman? Mature adults have abdicated roles regulating campus for young adults.
28
The author of this piece poses questions like "how does one determine whether I was blacked out," as if there are no answers, when this is the very reason police have rape kits and forensic investigators. You're correct that a college dean with a PHD in English Lit has no way of telling, but there are trained professionals whose entire job is to able to ascertain that if you go to them promptly. Why are we pretending that the police don't exist?
14
Because if one is raped, the police effectively do NOT exist and will not investigate. One cop who was not even supposed to investigate my rape befriended my rapist and told me, referring to my rapist, "The only mistake he made was not getting the good liquor out." In other words, he viewed my rape as "seduction" - not a crime. One has to wonder how many cops are rapists. I suspect plenty of them are.
3
Thanks for publishing this letter. Again, I have to ask you and other commenters here a question that nobody seems to want to answer: What is a university supposed to do when a student reports a sexual assault? Refer it to law enforcement? Of course. And if there have been policies that have led colleges to handle these potential crimes ONLY internally, that's a problem.
But the legal process can drag on for months or years, during which time colleges potentially allow a predator to stay on campus, at best further traumatizing a victim, and and worst possibly committing more assaults (and it has been found time and again that such predators often commit multiple assaults).
So of course colleges also have to have some kind of internal process to determine whether their students remain safe. This is the case for students that are accused of any kind of crime--whether it's drug dealing or theft or fighting--and it should be no different for rape. Universities have a right to enforce codes of conduct, and those codes include violations that are also against the law. You all cannot possibly be saying that colleges should treat rape LESS seriously than those other crimes, are you?
So what's the solution? And why do we suddenly react with such outrage on behalf of a few men who have been treated poorly by the existing system (and yes, no matter how sensational Emily Yoffe's and others' reporting on the subject has been, their results are still entirely anecdotal)?
But the legal process can drag on for months or years, during which time colleges potentially allow a predator to stay on campus, at best further traumatizing a victim, and and worst possibly committing more assaults (and it has been found time and again that such predators often commit multiple assaults).
So of course colleges also have to have some kind of internal process to determine whether their students remain safe. This is the case for students that are accused of any kind of crime--whether it's drug dealing or theft or fighting--and it should be no different for rape. Universities have a right to enforce codes of conduct, and those codes include violations that are also against the law. You all cannot possibly be saying that colleges should treat rape LESS seriously than those other crimes, are you?
So what's the solution? And why do we suddenly react with such outrage on behalf of a few men who have been treated poorly by the existing system (and yes, no matter how sensational Emily Yoffe's and others' reporting on the subject has been, their results are still entirely anecdotal)?
4
I would like to see some emphasis on alcohol consumption awareness for everyone attending public colleges and universities. It is not correct to blame rape culture solely upon alcohol consumption. But the mythology of "happy times" with alcohol could stand to be taken down a peg or two. Everyone is susceptible to alcohol overdosing and the dangerous, sometimes lethal mayhem that can result.
3
What I took away from this is some things to add to a speech to my sons and daughter when they go off to college:
If you drink to excess, do not expect others to protect you from harm or prevent you from harming others. You must protect yourself and control yourself. Acquaintances are not to be trusted if you are incapacitated from alcohol. In the event that you drink to excess and someone takes advantage of you while you are in that state, or you take advantage of someone else in that state, whether you are in that state or not, you may seek justice, or be accused of committing a crime. If you are the victim, you are unlikely to be satisfied with the justice meted out because there won't be any witnesses. And independent of whether justice is served, you will have wrecked your life. Don't put yourself in this position. If your social clique drinks to excess, find a better one.
This is not victim blaming.
If you drink to excess, do not expect others to protect you from harm or prevent you from harming others. You must protect yourself and control yourself. Acquaintances are not to be trusted if you are incapacitated from alcohol. In the event that you drink to excess and someone takes advantage of you while you are in that state, or you take advantage of someone else in that state, whether you are in that state or not, you may seek justice, or be accused of committing a crime. If you are the victim, you are unlikely to be satisfied with the justice meted out because there won't be any witnesses. And independent of whether justice is served, you will have wrecked your life. Don't put yourself in this position. If your social clique drinks to excess, find a better one.
This is not victim blaming.
203
Perfectly expressed. Thank you.
"And independent of whether justice is served, you will have wrecked your life."
Whether you mean it as victim blaming or not, if something happens to one of your children, and statistical chances are, it will, they will feel you are.
Whether you mean it as victim blaming or not, if something happens to one of your children, and statistical chances are, it will, they will feel you are.
1
While you make good points, consider that many young people are coming into a college environment that's totally foreign and new. Some will be leaving home for the first time and may be hundreds if not thousands of miles away. Some will be coming from very sheltered upbringings. Being exposed to alcohol can quickly lead to excess. Surely college orientations need to include education about behaviors that can lead to harmful consequences including drinking. Young people need a lot of help and support.
Alcohol abuse (by both victim and accused) is central to at least 90 % of the campus sexual assaults. The current Title IX adjudication process fails everyone. Sexual assault is a crime, and should be handled by the criminal justice system. The current campus based discipline system brands the accused as a "rapist" based on a civil burden of proof, with little or no due process. At the same time, the victim is too often disappointed by the civil penalties meted out (expulsion, suspension or lesser sentences).
3
Using scare quotes around the word rapist suggests that someone who rapes a woman is something other than a rapist. This is incorrect. A person who rapes is a rapist, period. Even if the target of the assault was "asking for it" or "behaving unwisely" or you can find some other rationalization for the act, the fact remains: committing one rape makes you a rapist.
It's not a good day when this point needs to be clarified.
It's not a good day when this point needs to be clarified.
9
Thanks you for the intellectual and moral courage to publish this letter. I have personal knowledge of several incidents like the one that your friend experienced. From a legal standpoint, i don't know what solutions can be offered that can balance the rights of the both parties. As a father, I know that I will be preparing my daughter to be cautious and my son to hold himself and those around him to a high standard of decency and conduct.
I also sympathize with the confused state of sexual relations among young adults and know first hand how the confluence of hormones, inexperience, enthusiasm, poor communication and lack of self-awareness can lead to mis-read signals and awkward if not traumatizing situations.
I also sympathize with the confused state of sexual relations among young adults and know first hand how the confluence of hormones, inexperience, enthusiasm, poor communication and lack of self-awareness can lead to mis-read signals and awkward if not traumatizing situations.
59
Bret Stephens: I appreciate you giving your friend a voice. And I appreciate her closing question: What to do that doesn't only put the burden back on the victims? So I ask you, Bret, to devote another column to this subject, answering that question.
6
The appropriate level of due process shouldn't be dependent on whether false accusations are common or rare. Nor should it be dependent on whether sexual assault on campus is a widespread endemic problem or a few isolated incidents.
This is not a new issue and not confined to the sexual assault context. The rate of false accusations of many crimes is low. Most prosecutors have very high conviction rates. But cries to crack down and stop "coddling" criminal suspects grow louder as crime rates rise , OR are perceived to be high regardless of the facts. Law-and-order hawks rail against courts letting guilty-appearing suspects "off the hook" because of a constitutional violation. Yet that is precisely why we must treat the demands of due process as a bulwark. Victims should be believed and respected AND suspects are entitled to due process. A fair and respected justice system requires both.
This is not a new issue and not confined to the sexual assault context. The rate of false accusations of many crimes is low. Most prosecutors have very high conviction rates. But cries to crack down and stop "coddling" criminal suspects grow louder as crime rates rise , OR are perceived to be high regardless of the facts. Law-and-order hawks rail against courts letting guilty-appearing suspects "off the hook" because of a constitutional violation. Yet that is precisely why we must treat the demands of due process as a bulwark. Victims should be believed and respected AND suspects are entitled to due process. A fair and respected justice system requires both.
9
Thank you for printing this, for your readiness to listen, and for the open-minded introduction you gave it.
And I'm as left-wing and pro-victim as you please, and I don't believe women "ask for it" by the clothes they wear, and I firmly believe it's the men who need far more consciousness raising, especially when they are the unspeakable sort of predators who slip drugs into women's drinks.
In this case, though I confess I can't help thinking this would not have happened if the young woman had not allowed herself to get falling-down drunk. We women do bear some responsibility for what happens to us. We are not passive objects in this way any more than in the ways men make us out to be.
And I'm as left-wing and pro-victim as you please, and I don't believe women "ask for it" by the clothes they wear, and I firmly believe it's the men who need far more consciousness raising, especially when they are the unspeakable sort of predators who slip drugs into women's drinks.
In this case, though I confess I can't help thinking this would not have happened if the young woman had not allowed herself to get falling-down drunk. We women do bear some responsibility for what happens to us. We are not passive objects in this way any more than in the ways men make us out to be.
18
If men can't control themselves then *they* are the ones who shouldn't drink.
8
"This would not have happened" if the rapist had not chosen to forcibly attack someone and commit an assault on their person.
Rape is not some sort of punishment meted out for intemperance, it's a crime.
Rape is not some sort of punishment meted out for intemperance, it's a crime.
11
"And I'm as left-wing and pro-victim as you please, and I don't believe women "
No you aren't. Don't lie.
"We women do bear some responsibility for what happens to us."
Um, no? Rape doesn't just "happen" to women. Men decide to rape. How does a woman getting drunk make a man decide to rape her? Are you familiar with the concept of proximate cause? Look it up. A woman can get falling down drunk and she won't be raped if a man doesn't choose to rape her. His choice is the proximate cause. My sobriety or lack thereof does not CAUSE a man to rape.
No you aren't. Don't lie.
"We women do bear some responsibility for what happens to us."
Um, no? Rape doesn't just "happen" to women. Men decide to rape. How does a woman getting drunk make a man decide to rape her? Are you familiar with the concept of proximate cause? Look it up. A woman can get falling down drunk and she won't be raped if a man doesn't choose to rape her. His choice is the proximate cause. My sobriety or lack thereof does not CAUSE a man to rape.
7
The letter writer asks some very good questions, and I commend her for her defense of due process. She is right, there are many people who have glommed onto this controversy to defend the accused who show little interest in developing a system that correctly identifies and punishes the guilty.
If we are to explore all facets of this issue, then we need to address the issue of on-campus drinking. As individuals, college students can't change policy, but they can control their own behavior. By not getting black-out drunk, they are far less likely to be raped or accused of rape.
Individual responsibility is a start. It does not mean that this young woman is not a victim or that her rapist does not deserve to be punished or that the process doesn't need to change. It means that there is something young men and women can do right now to help avoid these situations.
If we are to explore all facets of this issue, then we need to address the issue of on-campus drinking. As individuals, college students can't change policy, but they can control their own behavior. By not getting black-out drunk, they are far less likely to be raped or accused of rape.
Individual responsibility is a start. It does not mean that this young woman is not a victim or that her rapist does not deserve to be punished or that the process doesn't need to change. It means that there is something young men and women can do right now to help avoid these situations.
3
The letter is a perfect example of the problem with the sexual assault issue. "I don't remember what happened after that" is not evidence for rape. It is the very definition for the absence of evidence. She concludes that, because sexual relations took place, "I had been violated." No, you may not conclude that. Both of you could have drunkenly had sex willingly. You could have jumped him. You have NO evidence for anything. The real question is why do you assume rape? Why do you assume something awful happened? Is it because our society shames women (wrongfully) for having drunken sex? Enough with the witch hunts.
92
Except it was rape by default. Someone that drunk could be actively attempting to seduce be and asking for sex, but they can't consent.
8
If you have sex with someone who does not consent, that is rape. A person drunk to the point of blacking out is not capable of giving consent.
8
Hate to say this but I agree. I am a Democrat I am a woman but if she cannot remember what happened, why does she assume she was violated? Did I miss a sentence or paragraph?
I can only assume smartphones have kept this generation from being out on their own and they really don't know certain basics of life. I am only GenX, but in my day this would not be considered rape.
I can only assume smartphones have kept this generation from being out on their own and they really don't know certain basics of life. I am only GenX, but in my day this would not be considered rape.
4
I'm sorry to hear about what the author went through and continues to go through. I think an important takeaway from her letter is this quote "I suspect many of the solutions to this crisis are cultural and moral rather than legal". In her case had she taken the legal route I'm not sure she would be able to get the justice she seeks. She states both her and the accused were intoxicated, she has no memory of the event, there are no witnesses or physical evidence. This doesn't mean a crime didn't occur but it would be nearly impossible to legal prove one did. If the judicial system is unable to rule on this case how can we expect History Professors and the Psychology department admin assistant to do it? While we need properly handle crimes after they happen we also need to place focus on measures to prevent them from happening in the first place.
31
I hope Ross Douthat reads this. Maybe he will blame it all on alcohol or Obama, or maybe he will come to his senses.
33
Dear rdeannyc Amherst, MA,
"I hope Ross Douthat reads this. Maybe he will blame it all on alcohol or Obama, or maybe he will come to his senses."
Don't bet on it. In his world, where liberal, libertine, and hedonist are pretty much synonymous, it's just the inevitable downward slide of the culture. Liberals and their hedonistic libertine camp followers are causing all the evils in our society.
Ten thousand Trump lies and every Republican's - in the Congress and Executive - willingness to excuse those lies have nothing, nothing, to do with it.
"I hope Ross Douthat reads this. Maybe he will blame it all on alcohol or Obama, or maybe he will come to his senses."
Don't bet on it. In his world, where liberal, libertine, and hedonist are pretty much synonymous, it's just the inevitable downward slide of the culture. Liberals and their hedonistic libertine camp followers are causing all the evils in our society.
Ten thousand Trump lies and every Republican's - in the Congress and Executive - willingness to excuse those lies have nothing, nothing, to do with it.
Here's another one: Brock Turner, six months and the judges sypathy for such a nice guy, for raping while a Stanford student.
Think about how common it is for the men to get away with way less than this, and these terrific articles on how the woman is always guilty even when she is the accuser.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_v._Turner
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/jia-tolentino/the-dispiriting-but-unsu...
Think about how common it is for the men to get away with way less than this, and these terrific articles on how the woman is always guilty even when she is the accuser.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_v._Turner
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/jia-tolentino/the-dispiriting-but-unsu...
34
All I can say is look at the guy who is the president...he got away with sexual assault and harassment that he admitted publicly... and was still elected with a majority of white women voting for him...this, unfortunately says it all.
9
One wonders why this sort of crime remains in the purview of the school. I can understand why the school would want to hush it up, but justice for both the accuser and the accused seems to demand that this be handled by the court system.
How is it that we knowingly tolerate private trials of a crime of this magnitude?
How is it that we knowingly tolerate private trials of a crime of this magnitude?
127
On the one hand yes, but on the other hand, the criminal justice system has at best a mixed record on how it treats sexual assault victims.
Also, even under the best of circumstances, the college environment poses unique challenges while the case would be pending in civil court. In other settings it is usually possible to set bail conditions that require the accuser to stay away from the victim while allowing both parties to go on with their lives pending trial. It is also possible to set up such conditions as part of a plea agreement. On campus, that may be near impossible. So, do you require the accused to leave? You can't avoid involving the institution.
Also, even under the best of circumstances, the college environment poses unique challenges while the case would be pending in civil court. In other settings it is usually possible to set bail conditions that require the accuser to stay away from the victim while allowing both parties to go on with their lives pending trial. It is also possible to set up such conditions as part of a plea agreement. On campus, that may be near impossible. So, do you require the accused to leave? You can't avoid involving the institution.
1
I absolutely agree that the criminal justice system has failed abysmally in cases of rape, and will probably do so again. It sounds to me like you're making a case for fixing the criminal justice system, not making an argument for private justice.
As for the logistical difficulties, I do believe that judges are capable of devising bail conditions that would address these issues, and they're much better situated to do so than school administrators.
As for the logistical difficulties, I do believe that judges are capable of devising bail conditions that would address these issues, and they're much better situated to do so than school administrators.
1
Lots of posters have said, like Jon Kiparsky, that campus rapes should be tried in criminal trials, some suggesting that universities WANT to deal with the matter basically to hush it up. But as Bret's informant more or less acknowledges, the bar is set pretty high to gain a criminal conviction--guilt must be established "beyond a reasonable doubt," the survivor normally must normally give public testimony and endure cross-examination, etc.--so that survivors often decide to "suck it up," like Bret's informant, rather than press criminal charges. A disciplinary hearing by the university is seen as a second best remedy, where no criminal conviction is required for offenders to be disciplined, and--one hopes--publicity is minimized.
2
It's awful, it's ridiculous that nothing could have been done, there is no answer. But if one hadn't "blacked out drunk at a party" (probably underage drinking), and the other hadn't been drinking, possibly none of this would have happened.
43
Perhaps the follow-up question is: Why, when men's inhibitions are removed due to overconsumption of alcohol, do they feel entitled to sexually assault women?
13
On the other hand, blacking out drunk at a party isn't an invitation to rape. If someone had shot the victim, because they were helpless, that wouldn't be a defense to murder.
8
Blame the victim? If men were taught to get consent and not to have sex with drunk girls who don't know what is going on, it also wouldn't have happened. If men got away from this one night stand hookup culture and went on a couple dates with a girl first, it also wouldn't have happened. If men stopped thinking of women as property or conquests it wouldn't have happened. Drinking isn't the problem. The problem is men who use the situation to get what they want. Just because the guard at the bank fell asleep doesn't mean you get to go in and rob it.
32
Parents need to teach their children that sex without consent is wrong and there is no excuse for it. This should be emphasized from a young age, so we can reduce the number of assaults.
76
They should also teach that binge drinking is a no-no.
6
The problem is that the situation described here involves two people who were drinking. As a parent I do teach my child that you cannot have sex with a person who is drunk because they cannot consent and that you should not get black out drunk if you want to be sure not to have sex you don't want, but I am aware that drunk people are not operating with their full ability to reason. What if the woman in this story said nothing but reciprocated physically? She can't remember and the other party was also drinking. I do think it is seems a little antiquated to imagine that consent only applies to women so that if a straight couple has drunken sex then it is the woman who is the victim and the man the perpetrator. I respect the victim for speaking up and Bret Stephens for publishing this but there are no easy answers here. But I do wonder if we can tell whether more young people are binge drinking and why? I have been blackout drunk one time in my life, and the ensuing hangover was enough to warn me off of that forever, and I read about these incapacitated young people now all the time and wonder if this is more frequent than it used to be and if there is a way to address it that is not seen as victim blaming. Like reminding kids that hangovers are really awful?
3
Binge drinking seems to be a result of our high drinking age laws. It is better to learn how to drink while under supervision of the parents or some other responsible adult. It is dangerous to try to figure out your limits on your own.
1
I second the reference to "incapacitated" people and thier lack of awareness of their incapacitated behavior - I recall once having bartended at a fraternity at Carnegie Mellon University. I remarked to a friend the next day that "After a certain point people stopped accepting the drinks I had served them." My friend sarcastically remarked, "Maybe they might have if you had not been thhowing up in the sink."
7
In the university town in which I live, the semi trucks come to town on Thursdays carrying many thousands of gallons of beer to water the students over the weekend. What a waste of time, money, and lives.
It seems strange, but maybe I am now a "prohibitionist"! Well, a little red wine is good, but we are heading down the road to Russia where the average (average!) vodka intake is 20 quarts of vodka per adult per year, which is roughly 200 quarts of beer, or 1/2 quart of beer per day! 30% of Russians die due to alcohol and life expectancy of Russian males is dropping.
We tax gasoline (Europeans much more) to generate state income, we tax cigarettes to suppress use, so we could and should tax alcohol to a painful point where 18-year-old students stop drinking because they've run out of money.
It seems strange, but maybe I am now a "prohibitionist"! Well, a little red wine is good, but we are heading down the road to Russia where the average (average!) vodka intake is 20 quarts of vodka per adult per year, which is roughly 200 quarts of beer, or 1/2 quart of beer per day! 30% of Russians die due to alcohol and life expectancy of Russian males is dropping.
We tax gasoline (Europeans much more) to generate state income, we tax cigarettes to suppress use, so we could and should tax alcohol to a painful point where 18-year-old students stop drinking because they've run out of money.
28
The problem is, in the United States, students at certain learning institutions never run out of money. Anyone who can afford a $1000 phone can afford to drink regardless of the taxes. And a tax increase won't pass any Republican legislature.
3
And let's dispense with the mythology that alcohol is required to have a good time at a party or other social gathering. This message needs to be broadcast loudly and repeatedly.
2
My solution to this is stop having colleges and universities investigate sex crimes that occur on campus. Call in the police.
Colleges and universities are biased towards presenting a good face to the public. They don't want parents afraid to send their daughters to school. So they have an inclination to want to cover things up.
Just stop with the universities investigating rape. Let trained law enforcement do this.
Honestly, if I had been assaulted while in college, it never would have occurred to me to contact the college administration. My first phone call would have been 911.
Colleges and universities are biased towards presenting a good face to the public. They don't want parents afraid to send their daughters to school. So they have an inclination to want to cover things up.
Just stop with the universities investigating rape. Let trained law enforcement do this.
Honestly, if I had been assaulted while in college, it never would have occurred to me to contact the college administration. My first phone call would have been 911.
264
Camilan,
I'm not sure that you've really listened to or appreciated what this person said. The takeaway, for me at least, is that for victims, it isn't as simple as it may sound or should be. Yes, in a perfect world, victims would call police, who would arrest the bad guys, who would be appropriately punished. But, as the victim says, it often isn't that simple. She rightly asks whether Brock Turner would have been convicted if he hadn't been caught in the act, and she notes that Bill Cosby wasn't convicted. I have had occasion to speak with rape victims, including three who reported the crime to police. In one case, the cops while gathering evidence took the victim's sex toys from her home, where she was assaulted. They also pressured her into taking a polygraph. The investigation in and of itself was a horrible ordeal, botched by the cops, and the rapist walked, only to be convicted years later after attacking a different person in a different jurisdiction with more competent law enforcement.
I think victims who don't call police have very good reasons. At the same time, I agree that universities can't be stand-ins for law enforcement, and I think, also, that universities shouldn't have police departments in the first place. If it requires a gun and a badge, then call the real cops, not someone who wasn't able to get a job at a bona fide department. That helps reduce the chances of special treatment.
Bottom line, it's a complicated issue with no easy answers.
I'm not sure that you've really listened to or appreciated what this person said. The takeaway, for me at least, is that for victims, it isn't as simple as it may sound or should be. Yes, in a perfect world, victims would call police, who would arrest the bad guys, who would be appropriately punished. But, as the victim says, it often isn't that simple. She rightly asks whether Brock Turner would have been convicted if he hadn't been caught in the act, and she notes that Bill Cosby wasn't convicted. I have had occasion to speak with rape victims, including three who reported the crime to police. In one case, the cops while gathering evidence took the victim's sex toys from her home, where she was assaulted. They also pressured her into taking a polygraph. The investigation in and of itself was a horrible ordeal, botched by the cops, and the rapist walked, only to be convicted years later after attacking a different person in a different jurisdiction with more competent law enforcement.
I think victims who don't call police have very good reasons. At the same time, I agree that universities can't be stand-ins for law enforcement, and I think, also, that universities shouldn't have police departments in the first place. If it requires a gun and a badge, then call the real cops, not someone who wasn't able to get a job at a bona fide department. That helps reduce the chances of special treatment.
Bottom line, it's a complicated issue with no easy answers.
3
And the result from the police would often be dismissal due to lack of evidence. I agree, the police should be involved, but it doesn't solve the problem of our rape culture. There is a large segment of the male population who think "getting some of that" is the goal and it is okay. Witness #45 and his desire to "grab em".
10
Camllan, you're lucky to be naive enough to think it is that simple. The writer clearly said she didn't know enough of what happened to her and didn't know that incapacitated people can't consent. Before and even moreso now, women are afraid of not being believed or taken seriously. Sexual assault and DV are the only crimes where the burden of responsibility is routinely placed on the victim. I used to think that I'd do the same as you, call 911 after fighting back, but it is so different when you're in it.
Like the letter writer, when I was assaulted, I didn't know the language for it. I knew that I didn't consent, but I wasn't physically forced into anything. I was stone cold sober and frozen as I was kissed and groped and prodded. It wasn't physically violent, it wasn't "classic" rape, but it was violating. Who would take that seriously? I just wanted it to go away afterward. When I told my RA I was able to get a no contact/no trespass order placed on my assailant (a non-student). I ended up giving a statement but didn't want to press charges at the time. There was no physical evidence. Nobody saw him come in, nobody heard me when I found my voice to tell him to stop and leave our campus apartment. I didn't know who invited him to campus, I had nobody who could have vouched for his presence. I opted to press charges eventually so he couldn't hurt anyone else, but never heard back from the detective after I gave my second statement. My only justice was his ban from campus.
Like the letter writer, when I was assaulted, I didn't know the language for it. I knew that I didn't consent, but I wasn't physically forced into anything. I was stone cold sober and frozen as I was kissed and groped and prodded. It wasn't physically violent, it wasn't "classic" rape, but it was violating. Who would take that seriously? I just wanted it to go away afterward. When I told my RA I was able to get a no contact/no trespass order placed on my assailant (a non-student). I ended up giving a statement but didn't want to press charges at the time. There was no physical evidence. Nobody saw him come in, nobody heard me when I found my voice to tell him to stop and leave our campus apartment. I didn't know who invited him to campus, I had nobody who could have vouched for his presence. I opted to press charges eventually so he couldn't hurt anyone else, but never heard back from the detective after I gave my second statement. My only justice was his ban from campus.
2
Do you get it now, Mr. Stephens? Or do you need to hear the similar devastating, honest, and thoughtful stories of tens of thousands of women (and probably some men)?
And remember - rape sometimes results in unwanted pregnancies. Who deals with those repercussions?
Women, of course.
We're sick of waiting for men to get it about rape. And we're sick of our rights as human beings being considered less important - less equal - than the rights of men. Or of rapists.
And remember - rape sometimes results in unwanted pregnancies. Who deals with those repercussions?
Women, of course.
We're sick of waiting for men to get it about rape. And we're sick of our rights as human beings being considered less important - less equal - than the rights of men. Or of rapists.
330
I think the fact that he published this column shows that he does get it, so give him a break. Calling for thoughtful, open-minded, non-ideologically drive discussion shows that he wants to get it right. "Not getting it", as you use the term, is just a euphemism for not adopting your ideological view point.
9
Oh, quit. Please. The overwhelming majority of men get it. We're not rapists. We live in a male-dominated society that has seen fit to make rape a serious criminal offense punishable by many years in prison. Prisons are filled with rapists. So are sex offender centers where men are living without any realistic hope of release. A male-dominated society created this. Would you, then, throw due process and equal protection away?
This subject is much to serious for such shrill statements.
This subject is much to serious for such shrill statements.
5
Some people do consider rape a serious criminal offense, but there are too many people in positions of power who don't, which is why are there tens of thousands of untested rape kits sitting on shelves across the country. Every untested kit represents the opinion of multiple people in law enforcement who decided that the evidence was not worth the time and expense to test it. This allows criminals to continue attacking, and in some cases, murdering, new victims. It's a stunning insult to the brave children, women and men who submitted to this invasive, humiliating procedure in the immediate aftermath of terrifying assaults. Our society has a long, long way to go.
4
I work as an educator and I feel stuck on this one. No young woman should ever have to be raped or suffer nightmares or want to kill herself because of what she went through sexually. Is the right thing to do to say--since so many young women are being raped and their rapists are going free, that we must err on the side of the victims and accept (and explicitly acknowledge) the occasional false accusation? I'm not sure. The letter is yet another piece of evidence that the problem is real; yet I see little progress in our stumbling our way to a solution.
42
Too often columns like this begin by using the language of criminal trials and legal courts, as this one does: "verdict," "accused," "guilty." Universities and colleges engage in disciplinary hearings among people who choose, voluntarily, to be part of that institution. College and university administrators don't deal out criminal convictions, they impose disciplinary measures on people that they find responsible for breaking the rules. No one who committed a sexual assault is sentenced to prison by a college administrator - at most, they are asked to leave the community they volunteered to join, and to which they agreed to abide by the rules, including abiding by the disciplinary procedures that were in place when they joined.
19
C Mathys, does it change anything at all to say "outcome" instead of "verdict," or "Student A" instead of "accused," or "Student B" instead of "victim"?
I respect language more than most things, but if a crime has potentially been committed, a college's capacity to deal out conviction doesn't change the underlying circumstance.
I respect language more than most things, but if a crime has potentially been committed, a college's capacity to deal out conviction doesn't change the underlying circumstance.
1
I think you miss the point. Nobody denies these terrible things happen but most people also believe in basic justice. Turn these cases over to the proper authorities not college adsministrators.
3
this is a bit naive- if expedient- view- if expelled this record will follow you permanently. e.g., Brock turner did not get justice, but he will suffer consequences. If the evidence really isnt clear, but suspicious, tribunals should have the option of offering the accused the ability to transfer and the record for the disciplinary proceeding sealed, esp when they are less than 21 years old. this would allow the process the ability o bend over backwards to protect the alleged victim but also not destroy the accused life. there could also provision that the record could be unsealed with a court order, subpoena or for a certified similar body at another institution. as usual in our society, we look for a quick easy solution to a nettlesome problem. This problem CAN be ameloriated if we have the will and the energy. and rapes CAN be reduced on campus, probably substantially, if colleges simply stopped encouraging and promoting alcohol abuse. the place they can start is simply supervising monitoring and disciplining farts and sororities for policies that are currently on the books- Not serving alcohol to 18 years at fart parties could probably reduce campus rape by a third, easily.
1