I wonder if Mr. Eldreth would accept the black swastika in a white circle on a blood-red flag as a correct, right and true symbol of Black Lives Matter? Really, I wish they would adopt what we all recognize as the ensign of Hitler's Germany as their own. Since I suspect there are vastly more US citizens aligned with Black Lives Matter that with all the white supremacist groups combined, doing so with a million of these flags marching down Pennsylvania Avenue or massed on the Mall would be a fitting response to Charlottesville.
Soldiers who fought on the side of the insurrectionist Confederacy, during the civil war, were traitors and turncoats: They were also guilty of sedition!
They were not heroes and they deserve no monuments!
They were not heroes and they deserve no monuments!
7
The Confederate memorials on private property are a good thing; they announce to decent, civilized human beings that the organizations and individuals behind them are to be assiduously shunned.
I wish more white supremacists, secessionists and neo-Nazis wore identifying regalia so I could cross the street to avoid them.
I wish more white supremacists, secessionists and neo-Nazis wore identifying regalia so I could cross the street to avoid them.
8
That is where they should be.....the Public has no desire to erect monuments to losers......
4
For all of you self taught historians and arrogant elitist blowhards that think you know more than anyone else and refuse to believe you can be wrong (everyone else is either lying or stupid) ... I wish you could read my family letters from the Civil War years. If you really wanted to you could research actual archives such as my family's and you will find that people all over the South, like my family in the Western Virginia mountains (West Virginia today) were too poor to do anything but try to survive and when the Northern armies came and subjected them to atrocities and looting of what little they had. The only thing they were doing was fighting for their and their kid's survival against an enemy trying to subject or destroy you. There were no slaves or thoughts of owning slaves .... only survival. My ancestors wanted to be left alone and the Northern Armies invaded THEM. Please think a little deeper before taking generalities as universal truths
4
Mr. Eldreth says: "“They were fighting for fairness. What they believed in was states’ rights.” To Mr. Eldreth, I say stop lying. Your party is a party of liars. You've elected a president whose lies are beyond all belief. The Civil War was about slavery. Global warming is a massive problem. The Civil War is what happens when people lie about slavery. Houston is what happens when people lie about global warming. Stop lying..
6
At the heart of these statues is the preservation of the lie of white male supremacy along with the wish by those who use public funding to erect them in public spaces of returning to a period when Black people were held in bondage in these “yet to be united states.”
Where is the equivalent PUBLIC investment to erect monuments and statues of those who fought against these white supremacists?
Where is the equivalent PUBLIC investment to erect monuments and statues of those who fought against these white supremacists?
6
If it's on private, NOT PUBLIC land, then I really don't care what you erect.
Now if they would stop putting up 10 Commandment monuments we could all have actual "public" space.
Now if they would stop putting up 10 Commandment monuments we could all have actual "public" space.
2
Treason for the perpetuation of slavery is nothing honorable. Fighting for "states rights" for the perpetuation of slavery is no less despicable. Monuments that honor those who did so are deplorable and those who promote such are no better than the the racist slaveholders they seek to immortalize.
9
Those Confederate soldiers who were "dirt-poor sharecroppers from North Carolina who didn’t own slaves and weren’t fighting to keep them,. . . (t)hey were fighting for fairness. What they believed in was states’ rights.”
Sorry, no. What they were fighting for, as dirt-poor white sharecroppers was to keep slavery so that there would be a permanent class of people lower in status then they were.
That "culture" and "heritage" Confederate monument defenders talk about is just a way to pretend they were - and are- better than Black folks.
Sorry, no. What they were fighting for, as dirt-poor white sharecroppers was to keep slavery so that there would be a permanent class of people lower in status then they were.
That "culture" and "heritage" Confederate monument defenders talk about is just a way to pretend they were - and are- better than Black folks.
7
So wrong! They fought because they were ordered to do so by their government.
Time to expand Attractive Nuisance laws.
3
What are you advocating next? Going on to private property and removing them??? What insanity.
2
Your Great Great Grandpappy worked hard all his life and was a fine father and husband and a God fearing Christian. You can be proud of that. But the Civil War was needed to end slavery and your Great Great Granphppy was on the wrong side of that one. Nothing to be ashamed of. You are an American who helps keep America free and equal for all.
3
Civil War horses a target too? Trying to blame the horses for man's stupidity is the worse form of animal cruelty. Which why no one is ever credited for having man sense
2
They were on the side supporting slavey but they were "fighting for fairness"? Spare me!
6
If this was among Eldreth's proudest moments, he has lived a bankrupt life.
5
Ah yes: more of the Donald's "many fine people" running wild with their delusions about history.
Live free from Trump or die.
Live free from Trump or die.
6
Lets male a compromise for every confederate they want to celebrate in a public space they must erect an equally prominent statue the an American Abolitionist or famous Union general or President Lincoln.
Southerners love their history, the white history of their region.
Southerners love their history, the white history of their region.
4
Monuments to treason and memorials to traitors to the United States of America, it's really that simple. On private property you have the right to express those sentiments, but it is still land in the United States of America. I question the alleged patriotism of anyone so inclined!
3
Treason? How? They committed no crimes when they seceded!
Funny to see how many people try to make claims that slavery was the main issue for the Confederates.
What they forget to mention is that for the North slavery definitely was not the main argument.
What they forget to mention is that for the North slavery definitely was not the main argument.
3
This is probably the best possible solution. You want a monument? Put your money and your name where your mouth is. And let people, and time, make its decision as to the merits of your stance.
A flag or a monument ultimately is an argument. It is not my fault or anyone's if your argument is full of holes.
Eventually, all the fighters fighting for the various "Lost Causes" in our society need to come to terms with that. It is not our fault their arguments stink. Might as well privatize this tedious hashing out.
A flag or a monument ultimately is an argument. It is not my fault or anyone's if your argument is full of holes.
Eventually, all the fighters fighting for the various "Lost Causes" in our society need to come to terms with that. It is not our fault their arguments stink. Might as well privatize this tedious hashing out.
2
The "lesson of history" should be that the evil of the secessionism was defeated. For a moment, imagine that the the Confederacy prevailed. There would have been two nation-states competing for the economic power of the unsettled West, with slavery thrown into the competition. How is it that this collective memory of treason continues to survive in the hearts and minds of some Southerners? And how is it that the power of racism and the denigration of huge swaths of poor Americans continues one hundred and fifty two years after the defeat of the Confederacy and the surrender of Robert E Lee to Ulysseses S Grant at the Appomattox courthouse? I'd argue they are the same phenomena. Americans do indeed need to understand the lessons of their own history.
6
Mr. Eldreth says, “They were fighting for fairness. What they believed in was states’ rights.” Yes, the right to own slaves. They where fighting to keep the right to own other people like cattle. They where fighting to keep their stolen labor, to subjugate a people ripped from their homeland.
That's the legacy these monuments represent, and people like Mr. Eldreth understand full well what kind of message they're meant to send. The history of these monuments and there stylization memorializes the oppressors in that war who stood on the wrong side of history.
Note how none of these people are fighting for monuments for the folks enslaved by their legacy? That says everything about their intentions.
That's the legacy these monuments represent, and people like Mr. Eldreth understand full well what kind of message they're meant to send. The history of these monuments and there stylization memorializes the oppressors in that war who stood on the wrong side of history.
Note how none of these people are fighting for monuments for the folks enslaved by their legacy? That says everything about their intentions.
4
Though Alexander Stephens may have reframed the reasons for the War
it is odd to hear that it was a war fought to end slavery when slavery was
institutionalised in the Constitution.
Given that the there is nothing in the Constitution about secession
it would appear that it was the Northerners who sought to end slavery
without a Constitutional Amendment who were the REAL TRAITORS
to the Constitution.
As for average Southern Soldier - he fought for his State and because
the Union Soldiers were down South attacking his Con-Federates.
He did not own any slaves, and often lived a more miserable life than
many of the slaves.
And let us not forget that thousands of slaves were still slaves up North
when the war ended.
So if you want to build monuments and statues on your own land -
history supports your claims.
it is odd to hear that it was a war fought to end slavery when slavery was
institutionalised in the Constitution.
Given that the there is nothing in the Constitution about secession
it would appear that it was the Northerners who sought to end slavery
without a Constitutional Amendment who were the REAL TRAITORS
to the Constitution.
As for average Southern Soldier - he fought for his State and because
the Union Soldiers were down South attacking his Con-Federates.
He did not own any slaves, and often lived a more miserable life than
many of the slaves.
And let us not forget that thousands of slaves were still slaves up North
when the war ended.
So if you want to build monuments and statues on your own land -
history supports your claims.
6
One could easily consider this the first unfinished war, in a long history of unfinished wars, in US history. America has a tendency to start wars, then lose interest, letting them fester, only to return again in the future. I hear your lot is on its way back to Afghanistan. Good luck with that. Those who will not learn from their mistakes...
3
The Confederacy is also a part of American history, not just Southern history. In other words, for better or worse, it is part of the history of the American people. And it wasn't strictly about slavery, either. That is simply a popular notion today, but far, far too narrow and simplistic, because the war also had it's roots in American ideas about freedom, self determination, not to mention a kind of hostile relationship between the Southern and Northern states, and a certain kind of radicalism resulting in the election of Lincoln in 1860. Had Lincoln not been elected that year, there probably wouldn't have been a civil war at all. The Southern states also feared domination by the industrial northern states. There are many other reasons for the war, but the current fashion that it was "only" about slavery is not only naive, but purposely ignores the historical facts and the actual complexities of the causes of the war.
In addition, the very idea that most rebel soldiers died to keep black people enslaved is simply wrong. Most didn't even own slaves. They felt they were fighting for the true ideals of the founding fathers. Were they traitors? Yes, to the United States, in the same way that George Washington was a traitor to the British, and this simplistic notion that the war was only about slavery is a distortion of American history and is, in itself, creating all this trouble over these memorials. It won't withstand the test of time, either, because it's wrong.
In addition, the very idea that most rebel soldiers died to keep black people enslaved is simply wrong. Most didn't even own slaves. They felt they were fighting for the true ideals of the founding fathers. Were they traitors? Yes, to the United States, in the same way that George Washington was a traitor to the British, and this simplistic notion that the war was only about slavery is a distortion of American history and is, in itself, creating all this trouble over these memorials. It won't withstand the test of time, either, because it's wrong.
5
Historical societies have a responsibility to put history into context. If they exist merely to celebrate and romanticize the Confederacy then there is nothing historical about them
6
How is Lincoln doing below the Mason-Dixon; Grant ? Perhaps that helps understand the nature of the monuments. One represents the dissolution of the Union; the other, its continued life.
3
Confederate leaders aside, many of these monuments are in honor of local figures and groups. Bear that in mind. The Confederate cause may be revolting to us today, but what if your own ancestors had sailed with Columbus or Cortez? What if they had been German soldiers?
Who will be the first to set his own family album aflame?
What if the biggest mistake you ever made were also the bravest, most important thing you had ever done?
Who will be the first to set his own family album aflame?
What if the biggest mistake you ever made were also the bravest, most important thing you had ever done?
2
Kudos to those who, standing up for history (and its valuable lessons), are erecting Confederate monuments on private land. Although most of these folks may not be sculpting in defiance of the Ignorant public officials who have been forcing removal of Confederate monuments from public land (primarily of the idiotic belief that these artifacts are "racist"), I like to think that civil disobedience makes up a sizable chunk of their motivation.
Signed: A Unionist, Patriot, and Student of History
Signed: A Unionist, Patriot, and Student of History
3
These idiots are engaging in revisionist history. It's more than a little pathetic.
2
Private monuments? Fine...far from public view. Some public property might be appropriate: solid waste dumps, sewage disposal, etc.
5
Applause and salute to those who struggle to preserve nation's history, with all its beauty and ugliness for all to see and learn. Artificially suppressing the bad memories will only nurture their latent revival, as is already happening in neofascists' demonstrations and street violence.
Neither the extreme right, nor the radical left adhere to the good old principles of adversary encounters, enshrined in Code Duello 1777 and later also adopted by the honest gunslingers of the Wild West. How can this social plague be cured? Hormonal treatment, forced tranquilizer feed, or something else?
Neither the extreme right, nor the radical left adhere to the good old principles of adversary encounters, enshrined in Code Duello 1777 and later also adopted by the honest gunslingers of the Wild West. How can this social plague be cured? Hormonal treatment, forced tranquilizer feed, or something else?
1
Once again someone is repeating the erroneous idea that the South fought the Civil War for "States Rights". However, they have it backward. The key issue concerned the Federal Fugitive Slave Act. The northern states were exercising "States Rights" by not returning slaves to the South and violating the law. The South wanted the nation's laws enforced, while the North was for nullification of federal law by the states!
5
Perfect! Exactly where they belong, not on public ground. My ancestors died to destroy the CSA and I must honor them by fighting that symbol of hatred too.
2
I was raised in Texas and heard all the high minded defenses about the Civil War being all about states rights. "Of course slavery was wrong, but.." I watched my segregated society in action (safely as a lily white middle class girl.) What I saw disgusted me so I moved out of state as soon as it was viable. I didn't want to raise my children around that, and I didn't.
I know, from living it, exactly what those statues are about, and it is NOT all about states rights. Scratch the surface of anyone defending monuments to the Confederacy and you'll find out for yourself what is behind their support. If you are like me, it will make you step back and away from them.
I know, from living it, exactly what those statues are about, and it is NOT all about states rights. Scratch the surface of anyone defending monuments to the Confederacy and you'll find out for yourself what is behind their support. If you are like me, it will make you step back and away from them.
19
Since these monuments are on private land, the government has no authority to remove them and I believe this should not be changed. Changing this would set a bad precedent and promote government interference with private property rights whether owned by individuals or institutions. I shudder to think of government making the decision about who is and who is not worthy of being memorialized. Having said that I personally have no sympathy whatsoever with the confederacy and find the argument that the civil war was not about slavery to be ridiculous. While other issues may have played a part, slavery was clearly the primary issue.
2
Robert Eldreth: "Slavery had nothing to do with it."
Of course not, Robert... nothing at all.
The doctor will see you now.
Of course not, Robert... nothing at all.
The doctor will see you now.
24
You can't cure stupid.
There is a fascinating clash of monuments at the Battle of Honey Springs in Oklahoma. It was the "Gettysburg of the West," and was the battle that ended the Confederate control of the Indian Territories. There are four monuments: One by the Confederate Daughters of Texas, one by the Five civilized tribes (who fought for the confederates in the battle) one for the Union troops (donated by the Oklahoma Historical Society), and one for the First Regiment of Kansas Colored Volunteers (which fought on the Union side and won). They stand side by side.
4
What will happen when the Left finds out that the state flag of Arkansas commemorates the Confederacy. The blue star above "ARKANSAS" represents the Confederate States of America, which Arkansas joined in secession.
2
You really think we didn't notice that long ago? Those that honor inhumanity have nothing of which to be proud. I do not think for a moment that a poor choice of a flag speaks for everyone in the state, Hopefully for fewer and fewer.
5
And what will happen when all the hysterical people who have been forcing the removal of Confederate statues also start forcing an end to Civil War reenactments, because half of the participants are dressed in Confederate uniforms?
4
Sounds good to me. You can put up monuments to your ancestors and their beliefs on private land or via some non-profit. Just dont ask me to give my tax dollars for maintaining and displaying these monuments on public land.
15
.
if these things were put to a Vote, it would be very interesting
for example, in city A, there could a vote; 'should we tear down monument X'
and people could vote 'yes, tear down monument X' and they could vote 'no, don't tear down monument x'
I think if this happened, a lot of people would be blown away
hint; my guess is that in the vast majority of cases, except in black majority cities, the vote would be 'no, don't tear down monument x'
and while your at it, have a vote 'shall we rename all the Martin Luther King streets back to their original names' .... and again, I think you'd find a lot of 'yes, let's change the name back' votes
a real eye-opener
.
if these things were put to a Vote, it would be very interesting
for example, in city A, there could a vote; 'should we tear down monument X'
and people could vote 'yes, tear down monument X' and they could vote 'no, don't tear down monument x'
I think if this happened, a lot of people would be blown away
hint; my guess is that in the vast majority of cases, except in black majority cities, the vote would be 'no, don't tear down monument x'
and while your at it, have a vote 'shall we rename all the Martin Luther King streets back to their original names' .... and again, I think you'd find a lot of 'yes, let's change the name back' votes
a real eye-opener
.
3
The people who kidnapped and enslaved blacks were terrorists; and those who welcome monuments to celebrate them and their attempts at secession, celebrate terrorism.
17
by the definition in our constitution, confederates were and are traitors.. and anyone who erects a monument to traitors are themselves traitors and should face the punishments for that crime.
8
Old, weather beaten statues that no has barely paid attention to for 100 years, suddenly causing a national emergency 2 weeks ago.
Kind of silly, actually.
Kind of silly, actually.
8
Oh, I bet that Black Americans have noticed those statues for a very long time. By the way many of those statues were built after WW II to "greet" Black servicemen on their homecoming. Sweet huh? Strange how the "pro-statue" letters here say nothing about slavery, but vainly try to deceive us by talking about Confederate war heroes. They are traitors, not heroes.
5
A confederate monument is a monument to hate. How about erecting monuments that tell the stories of the suffering of millions of black people who were kidnapped, raped, beaten, and forced into servitude? Families were torn apart. People were humiliated on a daily basis. Oh, and let’s not forget the lynching's that went on and continued well into the 20th century.
9
Well, at least you know your neighbors worship losers and are big on slavery. It's good to know that before you take a job or buy a house.
Imagine your life being so filled with hate that you have to erect a monument to it.
Imagine your life being so filled with hate that you have to erect a monument to it.
40
Ah! the slippery slope. How long before "having private thoughts about confederacy" resulting in a nyt article?
17
False equivalency. You imply that articles about monuments that honor slavery and its defenders is a slippery slope to rooting those thoughts out of your own mind. Think what you like, but when you act on racist thoughts and traditions it becomes everyone's business. The KKK would have been largely ignored if they had only had racist thoughts. But when they lynch and murder the ancestors of slavery, they are monsters. And those who honored this system in Jim Crow and statues of Confederates have brought their ignorance and hatred into the public sphere.
4
Private property won't stop ANTIFA and BLM. You will see.
7
Private property didn't stop the KKK from lynching or burning crosses.
3
The problem is that there are activists trying to tell people what their flags and monuments means. They mean one thing to one group of people, but an entirely different thing to someone else. SOLUTION: Instead of attempting to shove your definitions of what these things stand for down the throats of people who cherish them, try this - man-up, don't let a statue or flag hurt your feelings, and leave people alone.
13
The problem is that people are lying about what the flag stood for--it stood for the defense of slavery and later of Jim Crow. That is simply a historical fact. Man up and admit that.
6
Most sensible comment of the day!
Nope. We don't need to support people's bigoted delusions.
2
I suppose there's a point here in remembering soldiers. As in any war, the battlefields were soaked with the blood of the farmers, shopkeepers and laborers, not as much the elite, who were the actual slaveholders.
But that was a long time ago. I don't believe this is about history or heritage at all. It's about defiance. That's what the upper class plantation owners tapped into to sell their misbegotten war to their gullible working class - a doomed attempt preserve an unworkable system of debt and overspeciaization fueled by human servitude.
And today it's what pours the concrete under these distasteful "monuments." If you're putting this stuff up, stop fooling yourself. You're not fooling anyone else.
But that was a long time ago. I don't believe this is about history or heritage at all. It's about defiance. That's what the upper class plantation owners tapped into to sell their misbegotten war to their gullible working class - a doomed attempt preserve an unworkable system of debt and overspeciaization fueled by human servitude.
And today it's what pours the concrete under these distasteful "monuments." If you're putting this stuff up, stop fooling yourself. You're not fooling anyone else.
28
I'm sorry, Mr. Eldreth, but your sharecropper ancestors were tools for the slave owners. The war was fought for slavery, and we know that because the states' governments said so in their declarations of secession. And, as a white person, I find the Confederate battle flag to be as offensive as I would any flag flown by a force fighting in opposition to the United States.
Paint he Civil War in whatever colors you want, but history tells us that the southern states were in rebellion against the Union. Those good ole Sons of the Confederacy down in East Texas may be sorry the North won, but I bet that won't stop them from lining up for the disaster relief checks issued by the Union government.
Paint he Civil War in whatever colors you want, but history tells us that the southern states were in rebellion against the Union. Those good ole Sons of the Confederacy down in East Texas may be sorry the North won, but I bet that won't stop them from lining up for the disaster relief checks issued by the Union government.
54
I am in a bloodline that shares forefathers who served or fought in the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, the Spanish American War, WWI, WWII, Vietnam, Grenada, Iraq, Afganistan and the Homeland. I am so proud of my martial heritage as my forefathers:
1. Separated US from England
2. Displayed true courage in resisting the economic pressures of the north
3. Freed Cuba and the Philippines from colonial rule
4. Saved Europe from subjugation by a single nation
5. Saved the world from domination by conquerors
7. Attempted to save the people and government of South Vietnam
8. Kicked the Cubans out of Grenada
9. Kicked Hussein out of Kuwait to save oil reserves
10. Went after jihadists after 911 in Afghanistan
11. Kept US safe since 911
I fly my CSA flag proudly along side my Stars and Stripes. I am so sick of the vacuous left and their stifled understanding of heritage. I suppose many of the left has no knowledge of their ancestors. History should be cherished and not forsaken.
1. Separated US from England
2. Displayed true courage in resisting the economic pressures of the north
3. Freed Cuba and the Philippines from colonial rule
4. Saved Europe from subjugation by a single nation
5. Saved the world from domination by conquerors
7. Attempted to save the people and government of South Vietnam
8. Kicked the Cubans out of Grenada
9. Kicked Hussein out of Kuwait to save oil reserves
10. Went after jihadists after 911 in Afghanistan
11. Kept US safe since 911
I fly my CSA flag proudly along side my Stars and Stripes. I am so sick of the vacuous left and their stifled understanding of heritage. I suppose many of the left has no knowledge of their ancestors. History should be cherished and not forsaken.
30
Ah, no. 2 is tucked amongst better company. Resisting the economic pressure of the North. Can't quite say SLAVERY?
21
I suggest you read the secession documents of the various states that seceded and see what they say about why they did it.
18
Then why don't you study the real history, you know, the one where my ancestors were enslaved for generations? Honestly, it is so sad to watch this country forsake its true greatness by clinging to this damaging, misogynistic version of its history.
20
Ridiculous. The people they are commemorating were fighting to keep fellow humans enslaved! If that isn't bad enough, they were also traitors to our country. It's fine to fight for states rights - by speaking, writing,, gathering, voting, and electing. Not by taking up arms against your own country.
There is NOTHING honorable in what those people did. Their descendants can bring honor to their families by doing the right thing, such as condemning bigotry.
There is NOTHING honorable in what those people did. Their descendants can bring honor to their families by doing the right thing, such as condemning bigotry.
84
That has nothing to do with what someone does on their own property.
Free speech is often not popular.
Free speech is often not popular.
I am glad you have it all figured out 150 years post facto. Perhaps we should tear down all commemorations of the founders who were, after all, rebelling against their country as well.
4
Jim: The difference is that those who rebelled against England won. Winners get the right to erect monuments, not losers.
2
If you were a person that owned other human beings, took their lives, or took away their human rights in any way, then you should not have any ''public'' monument dedicated to you. ( especially legal tender )
You failed as a human being.
You failed as a human being.
68
Historical hindsight is always 20 20.
2
And this would be Democrats. It was Democrats who started the KKK, who bought and sold slaves, who owned slaves, who fought a war to keep their slaves, who created The Jim Crow laws, who stood in front of a a school entrance to bar the entrance of 2 black students... The Democrat Party, the party of slavery needs to be abolished, and banned.
6
@George
Well that is what we are discussing , isn't it ? Whether we are to commemorate said history and said individuals ?
The answer is an easy one, although the political will is another.
Well that is what we are discussing , isn't it ? Whether we are to commemorate said history and said individuals ?
The answer is an easy one, although the political will is another.
3
The past isn't even past. I for one am sick and tired of the glorification of what was a treasonous rebellion in the defense of the indefensible. Let these idiots have their own country and be done with it once and for all. Call a constitutional convention and put it to a simple majority vote. Let the states that want to go,go.Institute an emigration program for people stranded in states they don't care to live in.Split the nukes and defense resources on a per capital basis. Progressive or reactionary side,care to guess which would do better and have more allies rallying to it's cause?
8
You don't split the nukes. People who continually vote against their own self-interests could indeed nuke their neighbors 200 miles away and not think of the personal consequences.
5
They are traitors in a state of rebellion! (King George in response to the Declaration of Independence). Traitor or supporter of independence. It all depends on which side you're on.
3
Let everyone declare which side they are on. You do recall that it was the Union that was victorious? That has always been the bitter pill that the Noble Cause deadenders can't seem to swallow. My ancestors fought for the North and I would fight the good fight too,if it comes to that. Good always triumphs over evil in the end.
1
I have no problem with monuments on private land. Build one honoring dung beetles if you want. It's a free country. Just get your revisionist nonsense out of public places like capitol grounds and universities. They were built to promote white domination, and their removal is 50 years overdue.
73
How many monuments honor those who were unjustly enslaved? How many monuments in the South celebrate diversity? How many monuments have plaques with thoughtful quotes about the harm, the cowardice, and the senselessness or racism? How about monuments to all the immigrant groups that were condemned at one time or another but have made great contributions toAmerica?
3
Let compete with monuments on public land to the liberation of slaves. Something that ALL Americans can celebrate Liberty For All!!
18
I've never seen one of the monuments to southern soldiers acknowledge that most of its soldiers were conscripted, that is to say, forced under pain of death, to fight for it. It's a sad, cruel truth that most of these soldiers weren't fighting for slavery, they weren't fighting for states rights, they were fighting for their lives.
22
I don't have any objection to monuments to individual (usually young) men who did what they were told was the right thing. I imagine they had about as much grasp of why they were risking their life as the average Vietnam soldier did. We don't demonize the Vietnam vet anymore, so let's not demonize kids who died fighting for the south.
Why don't these people realize that are worshipping a bunch of rich guys who sent their kids to war so they could stay rich.
Why don't these people realize that are worshipping a bunch of rich guys who sent their kids to war so they could stay rich.
11
@Susan Let's not forget: the rich guys got rich by stealing the labor, liberty and lives of generations of human beings (though I'm sure many would dispute the human quality of their human property -- that was part of the method of how they tried to justify their theft). After a few centuries of that, sending the kids off to be gloriously slaughtered for an unjust cause probably looked like some kind of kindness. And then they used their childrens' "noble" blood sacrifice in the ridiculously stupid, lopsided war to start oppressing and stealing from their former, still not quite human as far as they were concerned, property all over again.
3
Morris Dees - of the Southern Poverty Law Center - wrote that most white Southerners were not moved to fight for slavery as they owned no slaves. He wrote that the slaveowners were only able to get poor whites to fight for their economic interests by convincing them - with a little P.R. - that freed slaves might rape their wives. Kind of like when Congress and most of America was unwilling to go to war with Iraq in 1991 until Hill & Knowlton, a P.R. firm - made false footage of atrocities committed in Kuwait hospitals by Iraq and raised the specter of Iraq possessing nuclear weapons.
2
The argument that the war was not about slavery is misleading and clearly designed to describe a Confederacy that existed only in mythology, moonlight, and magnolias. Even before the war, southern states wanted to expand slavery to areas the US had acquired from Mexico and France. Southerners prior to the war wanted to acquire Cuba and parts of Central America for the expansion of slavery. Southerners even supported the resumption of the African slave trade, which the US had banned in the early 1800s. The platform of the Southern Democratic Party, created after the split of the Democratic Party in 1860, had plank in the platform calling for a national slave code that would protect a master and his slaves anywhere in the country, even in the free states. When the South seceded, five states wrote extended declarations explaining their rationale for secession. All dealt extensively with protecting slavery from rapacious 'Black Republicans,' the pejorative that Southerners used to describe Lincoln's party. The argument that non-slaveholders were not fighting for slavery but states rights is just as fallacious as slavery did not cause the war: race was clearly a factor as many southerners feared emancipation would bring social and political equality. The non-slaveholder knew his social status was predicated on an institution that subordinated blacks to whites, whether those whites held slaves or not. The war was always about slavery, no matter what 'lost cause ' advocates say.
32
I don't agree with you. Most of the people who fought for the confederacy either did it, as US soldiers today fight, for a plethora of reasons: pay, some sense of duty, or because they are drafted (of course we don't have that now), very few have any meaningful understanding of the issues involved. It was very difficult to not fight for the confederacy if you lived in a strong confederate area, you would be drafted or executed; the option was to escape and live in a wilderness area which many did, or possibly meet up with union soldiers and join them. The proximate causes of the war were the expansion of slavery into the territories and the election of Abraham Lincoln (who although opposed to abolition was sympathetic to the antislavery cause). The overarching issue generated by slavery was what kind of a nation was the US to be, one ruled by aristocratic slave owners or a democracy of sorts. People, including Lincolin and Andrew Johnson both of a very different political bent, hated the slavocracy and what it represented. There was opposition to slavery for multiplicity of reasons, most were not moral but many were. The non slave holders didn't benefit from slavery, they were victims of it as was Lincoln's family. As Lincoln said when he became a republican "I was a slave for 7 years" referring to his father selling him into indentured service.
"The region of Texas where the memorial sits has a long history of racial tensions. The small town of Vidor has never fully shaken its reputation as a Ku Klux Klan stronghold."
If the subject matter wasn't so shameful, those sentences from this article would be hilarious.
It's the equivalent of "Despite furiously tweeting to the public since being elected, Donald Trump has been unable to unite the country or be seen as legitimate by the people who did not vote for him."
If the subject matter wasn't so shameful, those sentences from this article would be hilarious.
It's the equivalent of "Despite furiously tweeting to the public since being elected, Donald Trump has been unable to unite the country or be seen as legitimate by the people who did not vote for him."
6
The civil war was fought over slavery and the confederate flag is a symbol of slavery's brutality. Those who wanted to secede from the USA, were traitors. It is unpatriotic to support these symbols that are at best sympathetic to a lost cause but more realistically, represent a system that brutalized and terrorized our fellow citizens. Take the monuments down once and for all and don't allow them to be publicly displayed even on private land. Enough is enough.
8
Not about slavery, right? Well what is it about exactly? How did the antebellum economy survive without it and why else could these people so desperately want to keep claiming their 'heritage' belongs to them. Their longing for the good old days is exactly the point, and the good old days were those of master and slave. The rest is as William Faulkner wrote 'sound and fury signifying nothing'.
12
The quote "sound and fury signifying nothing" is from Shakespeare's Macbeth.
3
Well this just goes to show you that this "Lost Cause" nonsense, likely first fostered by Nathan Bedford Forrest, and his lieutenant, that guy - what's his name - Pendleton - helped along by the first "Birth of a Nation" and people like Woodrow Wilson - still has play, which is a shame, because it is a bunch of nonsense, as I said.
But, that said, if its on private property, I guess you can't stop revisionism from finding a home there amongst the gullible and the credulous, who either don't know history, or just flat don't care.
You know - the "don't-confuse-me-with-the-facts" types.
But, that said, if its on private property, I guess you can't stop revisionism from finding a home there amongst the gullible and the credulous, who either don't know history, or just flat don't care.
You know - the "don't-confuse-me-with-the-facts" types.
9
Confuse yourself:
"However much we differed with them while public enemies, and were at war, we must admit that they fought gallantly for the preservation of the government which we fought to destroy, which is now ours, was that of our fathers, and must be that of our children. Though our love for that government was for a while supplanted by the exasperation springing out of a sense of violated rights and the conflict of battle, yet our love for free government, justly administered, has not perished, and must grow strong in the hearts of brave men who have learned to appreciate the noble qualities of the true soldier.
"Let us all, then, join their comrades who live, in spreading flowers over the graves of these dead Federal soldiers, before the whole American people, as a peace offering to the nation, as a testimonial of our respect for their devotion to duty, and as a tribute from patriots, as we have ever been, to the great Republic, and in honor of the flag against which we fought, and under which they fell, nobly maintaining the honor of that flag. It is our duty to honor the government for which they died, and if called upon, to fight for the flag we could not conquer." -- N. B. Forrest, 1875
"However much we differed with them while public enemies, and were at war, we must admit that they fought gallantly for the preservation of the government which we fought to destroy, which is now ours, was that of our fathers, and must be that of our children. Though our love for that government was for a while supplanted by the exasperation springing out of a sense of violated rights and the conflict of battle, yet our love for free government, justly administered, has not perished, and must grow strong in the hearts of brave men who have learned to appreciate the noble qualities of the true soldier.
"Let us all, then, join their comrades who live, in spreading flowers over the graves of these dead Federal soldiers, before the whole American people, as a peace offering to the nation, as a testimonial of our respect for their devotion to duty, and as a tribute from patriots, as we have ever been, to the great Republic, and in honor of the flag against which we fought, and under which they fell, nobly maintaining the honor of that flag. It is our duty to honor the government for which they died, and if called upon, to fight for the flag we could not conquer." -- N. B. Forrest, 1875
If its on private land I have no complaint. There are many families that have relatives who died in the civil war (mine included), most confederate soldiers were conscripted and had little choice. If they want to erect memorials to those soldiers on private land that is properly zoned for such development that seems acceptable in my mind.
5
It may be their right, but them don't memorialize them as soldiers but rather as salves themselves who were forced to do something.
2
That's fine as well and makes more sense. Most confederate soldiers had little choice in the matter.
2
When the United States was founded, it was founded in the 13 original colonies in the Mid-Atlantic region. Industry followed and so did money and politics. The southern states came along afterwards and the political favoritism was in the north in the mid-1850s. The southern states were paying their federal taxes only to see them constantly be put towards projects only in the north. Roads, bridges, railroads etc were all being built in the north and the south just seethed. The causes of the civil war include slavery but if you polled 100 confederate soldiers in 1865 they wouldn't be saying that they were fighting for slavery. Slavery did however play a very big part in the Civil War.
6
@Peter McGrath -- Georgia and both of the Carolina were among the 13 colonies, and are not generally considered to be among the "mid-Atlantic" states.
6
Oh, come on! Just like today, poor people fought a war to protect the self interest of the rich guys -- the slave owning rich guys!!!
9
Another issue was the 3/5's clause which gave southern whites over-representation in Congress. Lincoln spoke out against this in his debates, and the writing was on the wall that the populous northern states were not going to abide the rule much longer. This, and the fact that northern states were no longer going to honor the fugitive slave acts meant that the ruling elites in the south were going to lose both their influence, and ultimately their wealth, as the slaves escaped north in increasing numbers which would not be returned. The "house" could not stand divided, and the slave holders had to either secede or accept the end of slavery.
I don't think there is one monolithic reason why people fought for the Confederacy and Mr. Eldreth's family could very well have been fighting for 'fairness.' I'd agree that fundamentally the war between the states was a war between competing ways of life and beliefs, and one side wanted to keep their slaves. But when people had to choose sides, they may have sided with what they thought of as 'fairness' or states' rights. In the same way many people voted for Trump simply because they did not want to vote for Hilary. When there are just two sides then the umbrella becomes very big but within that side can be many competing ideologies and ideas.
7
Slavery was cited as the principle cause for the conflict in the formal secession documents of every one of the seceding states. To the extent there were other contributing factors, they were ancillary to the primary one, which was slavery.
16
What you say would be reasonable if you don't consider what the former Confederate soldiers and their offspring did after Reconstruction: the suppression of rights based on the color of person's skin and the terror meted out to the former slaves and their descendants. As one of the other commentators wrote, poor whites didn't own slaves, but slavery gave them a superior status compared to black people. they didn't want to lose that.
6
Yes, 1860 is a lot like 2016. Rich guys persuaded a bunch of poor people to sacrifice themselves to protect the self interest of the rich. And the Trumpsters are just as oblivious as those dirt farmers were.
7
Ah, the rapacious north. And slavery had nothing to do with it. Right. Keep deluding yourselves.
I'm mostly sad for these people who cling to the Civil War. It makes them permanent victims, quick to take offense, quick to discriminate against anyone not like themselves. Even Robert E. Lee saw the wisdom in not glorifying the war. It was over, and time to heal instead of rubbing salt in the wound by erecting monuments to a failed cause:
“I think it wiser not to keep open the sores of war but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife, to commit to oblivion the feelings engendered.”
Why can't you all take your wise general's advice? Why must you nurture your victim-hood?
I don't care how many monuments are moved to or built upon private land. Eventually, private lands change hands, and new generations of people who want an end to all this hatred once and for all will simply discard them.
The Civil War monuments in public spaces are being removed by people of conscience, and for that I'm grateful.
I'm mostly sad for these people who cling to the Civil War. It makes them permanent victims, quick to take offense, quick to discriminate against anyone not like themselves. Even Robert E. Lee saw the wisdom in not glorifying the war. It was over, and time to heal instead of rubbing salt in the wound by erecting monuments to a failed cause:
“I think it wiser not to keep open the sores of war but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife, to commit to oblivion the feelings engendered.”
Why can't you all take your wise general's advice? Why must you nurture your victim-hood?
I don't care how many monuments are moved to or built upon private land. Eventually, private lands change hands, and new generations of people who want an end to all this hatred once and for all will simply discard them.
The Civil War monuments in public spaces are being removed by people of conscience, and for that I'm grateful.
76
CF - "I'm mostly sad for these people who cling to the Civil War. It makes them permanent victims, quick to take offense, quick to discriminate against anyone not like themselves."
And what of those permanent "victims" who are now so quick to take offense at a statue that they want it immediately removed, or they destroy it themselves? Does that sadden you?
What of those textbook fascists who band together under the "anti-fascist" banner and not only discriminate against anyone not like themselves but attack them with malice aforethought? Are you also sad for them?
And what of those permanent "victims" who are now so quick to take offense at a statue that they want it immediately removed, or they destroy it themselves? Does that sadden you?
What of those textbook fascists who band together under the "anti-fascist" banner and not only discriminate against anyone not like themselves but attack them with malice aforethought? Are you also sad for them?
To claim the Civil War wasn't over slavery is nonsense. Each and every Secession legislation passed by the individual Confederate States enshrined slavery as a right and the Confederate constitution expressly forbid the freeing of slaves. Were there wider issues as well? Yes, but no one can say that slavery wasn't a core motivator for that war. It wasn't a rapacious North, it was a morally outraged North.
The oligarchs of the Confederacy simply conned the those poor sharecroppers into spilling their blood by the barrel full for the richest members of that society. Pretty much the same way they continue to this day.
The oligarchs of the Confederacy simply conned the those poor sharecroppers into spilling their blood by the barrel full for the richest members of that society. Pretty much the same way they continue to this day.
38
It was the US Constitution that enshrined slavery as a right and the Supreme court of the United States who ruled that slaves were property and had to be returned to their owners. The ugly truth is the Confederacy wanted to retain the status quo. 80% of the signers of the Declaration of Independence owned slaves and they probably would have fought for the South.
Hostility and hatred on private land.... or hope that the ”glorious" South will rise again?
When I spoke with a black woman who supported Trump, I specifically told her I could not understand why any black person would support such a racist. She told me that she liked the fact that it was upfront and known. I still don't understand why any black person would support Trump. I wonder: Would she (will Ben Carson) support him if he decides to deport black people to somewhere in Africa (last I heard this was the Spencer et al's long-term plan).
I think all of this (direct or indirect) glorification of racism should be beneath us as human beings.
When I spoke with a black woman who supported Trump, I specifically told her I could not understand why any black person would support such a racist. She told me that she liked the fact that it was upfront and known. I still don't understand why any black person would support Trump. I wonder: Would she (will Ben Carson) support him if he decides to deport black people to somewhere in Africa (last I heard this was the Spencer et al's long-term plan).
I think all of this (direct or indirect) glorification of racism should be beneath us as human beings.
25
Interesting how the violence that occurred in Charlottesville is getting a second look as a former US Attorney has been engaged to review the incident. Trumps comments are becoming more accepted as true now that the violent the nature of ANTIFA is being unmasked.
As to why people of color supported Trump the answer is simple, they want jobs not promises. They felt the Democratic Party let them down and did not have a vision for the future.
What will rise again is the anger of the working class towards any political party that cannot foster a better economic future for them. The liberal left be dammed if they cannot produce jobs.
As to why people of color supported Trump the answer is simple, they want jobs not promises. They felt the Democratic Party let them down and did not have a vision for the future.
What will rise again is the anger of the working class towards any political party that cannot foster a better economic future for them. The liberal left be dammed if they cannot produce jobs.
15
Trump is a racist with ZERO supporting evidence. Nice.
@George,
Even Nancy Pelosi now admits that Trump was right in saying "many sides".
Even Nancy Pelosi now admits that Trump was right in saying "many sides".
2
It's fine to put up a granite block with the names of the dead in Georgetown. But the Confederate battle flag in stone, in color? Supremely tacky and obviously meant to insult. Once you add that, or fly the CBF (absurd anywhere, truly bizarre in Delaware), you're striving to insult.
There are undoubtedly former Nazis buried in Delaware. No one would find it appropriate to mark their graves with Wehrmacht or SS or party flags. The monument in the photo is a gigantic white-supremacist middle finger to the loyal U.S. citizens of Delaware.
There are undoubtedly former Nazis buried in Delaware. No one would find it appropriate to mark their graves with Wehrmacht or SS or party flags. The monument in the photo is a gigantic white-supremacist middle finger to the loyal U.S. citizens of Delaware.
31
"The statue simply honors Delawareans who helped the Confederacy- like Washington Vickers, who went to fight with the South and later became one of Delaware's first lifeguards".
Lordy. Thanks for the laugh. Are they standing out there in a field saluting in their Speedos??
If there was ever a time to reinstate the draft it is now. We have so many old men with no access to an identity of their own. There is so much need in this world and these old coots are inventing romantic tales about the Civil War. Many of my ancestors fought for the South. But they were farmers and ranchers and practical people who had enough sense to move on- more than a hundred years ago. "There's no fool like an old fool" still holds.
Lordy. Thanks for the laugh. Are they standing out there in a field saluting in their Speedos??
If there was ever a time to reinstate the draft it is now. We have so many old men with no access to an identity of their own. There is so much need in this world and these old coots are inventing romantic tales about the Civil War. Many of my ancestors fought for the South. But they were farmers and ranchers and practical people who had enough sense to move on- more than a hundred years ago. "There's no fool like an old fool" still holds.
34
How utterly unenlightened. The only salient feature of the so-called "heritage" is, by golly, slavery. These boys can't know honor because they have no shame.
30
Following Lee's surrender at Appomattox, the War Department initiated the Federal Reburial Program which lasted four years. During that time, 60% of the remains of UNION soldiers were recovered from mass or shallow graves on distant battlefields and POW sites and returned to the families for interment or for interment in national cemeteries. However, the remains of Confederate dead were ignored. This indignity outraged Southerners. Their economies destroyed and lacking the bare necessities, local chapters of the Ladies Memorial Associations spent decades raising funds to erect memorials to husbands, sons, fathers, and brothers that never returned home - whose remains were scattered across distant battlefields in shallow graves. Sheds a different light on it, doesn't it?
4
@Blaine McAvoy
Not really. The peak periods for monuments were during the depths of Jim Crow and its defense in the 50s and 60s.
Not really. The peak periods for monuments were during the depths of Jim Crow and its defense in the 50s and 60s.
2
@Blaine Actually it reminds me that the initial outrage that ignited the Ferguson protests and riots was not that Michael Brown was shot and killed but that his body was left out on the street uncovered for four hours. That upset a lot of people; it just wasn't right. Sometimes we are all more human than we give ourselves, or others, credit for.
1
This is all so nuts. Why don't the modern Romans put up a monument to the battle of Cannae?
3
There is a Roman monument at the battlefield site.
5