I'm just happy SOMEONE is wrapping up GOT. George RR Martin certainly seemed incapable of doing so.
1
Overall, season 7 met all my expectations. Sure, the aunt and nephew hookup was a little weird, but everyone secretly wanted them to be together. Also, everyone must give them a break because they clearly are not aware of this family relation they have. The big question here is what are they going to do once they find out? Another question is now that we know Jon is the rightful heir to the throne, what will he or Dany do? Dany also mentions often that she is unable to have children. I feel like this is hinting at her becoming pregnant with Jon’s child in the later season. However, Cersei being pregnant was a huge shock considering she is starting to turn against Jamie and will most likely (hopefully) be killed during the Great War. Cersei has always been on her own side and her side only so it is just absurd for anyone to trust her. Aside from that, I was super relieved when Sansa and Arya put aside their differences and finally came together to put down Littlefinger once and for all. Littlefinger has done nothing but manipulate Sansa so to see her take finally realize and take charge was very rewarding. I cannot wait to see what the next season has in store!
3
What do we make of Tyrion's apparent concern over Jonerys? I'm guessing Tyrion convinced Cersei to join the fight by promising that her child would succeed to the throne...but the Stark/Targaryen shagging complicates that.
I dont understand why there are so many questions on jon and dany's incesteous relationship.
1. They are not brother and sister
2. Targaryens are known to marry brothers and sisters to keep their blood pure.
1. They are not brother and sister
2. Targaryens are known to marry brothers and sisters to keep their blood pure.
3
The writing, for the first time, feels weak, lazy, intent on advancing plot with little attempt to craft engaging storytelling.
Best example is Arya and Sansa. They spend multiple episodes creating conflict. Then suddenly it’s all gone and everything is okay again. How? Why?
I think it’s tragic the writers didn’t use something Arya overheard when she was cupbearer to either reconcile with Sansa, or at least reveal Little Finger's betrayals.
There was nothing clever about the reversal. Just the surprise of the moment with nothing to explain it.
Will Arya end up in King[‘s Landing, as Little Finger at some point?
Also, why isn’t Cersei more concerned that Jaime will reveal her betrayal of the coalition as soon as he reaches the North? And about Euron too?
Best example is Arya and Sansa. They spend multiple episodes creating conflict. Then suddenly it’s all gone and everything is okay again. How? Why?
I think it’s tragic the writers didn’t use something Arya overheard when she was cupbearer to either reconcile with Sansa, or at least reveal Little Finger's betrayals.
There was nothing clever about the reversal. Just the surprise of the moment with nothing to explain it.
Will Arya end up in King[‘s Landing, as Little Finger at some point?
Also, why isn’t Cersei more concerned that Jaime will reveal her betrayal of the coalition as soon as he reaches the North? And about Euron too?
5
AB.SO.LUTELY.
I'm astonished people don't see this. The whole season was rushed, albeit still manageable, but the last two episodes were just terrible. Total sacrifice of story for the sake of plot.
Part of what made GoT so great was that it felt REAL—which, for fantasy, was pretty impressive!—but now I don't even know if I'll be able to suspend disbelief anymore. The plot-service is just so transparent and ubiquitous now.
Hugely disappointing.
I'm astonished people don't see this. The whole season was rushed, albeit still manageable, but the last two episodes were just terrible. Total sacrifice of story for the sake of plot.
Part of what made GoT so great was that it felt REAL—which, for fantasy, was pretty impressive!—but now I don't even know if I'll be able to suspend disbelief anymore. The plot-service is just so transparent and ubiquitous now.
Hugely disappointing.
3
Where did the army of the dead come up with five miles of heavy iron chain? And if the dead can't swim -- so how did they get the chains wrapped around the dead dragon under the ice?
Quite resourceful, those dead guys.
Quite resourceful, those dead guys.
4
@ David — The provenance of the chain is a fair enough question . . . except that beings who can reanimate the dead obviously have magical powers that extend far beyond the procurement of hardware.
And so what if the dead can’t swim? For this job, they don’t need to swim. They need to •sink•!
And it should be obvious that even if they can’t swim, they also can’t •drown•. So once they’re on the bottom of the lake, with the chain, I see no impediment to their wrapping it around the dragon’s carcass.
— Brian
And so what if the dead can’t swim? For this job, they don’t need to swim. They need to •sink•!
And it should be obvious that even if they can’t swim, they also can’t •drown•. So once they’re on the bottom of the lake, with the chain, I see no impediment to their wrapping it around the dragon’s carcass.
— Brian
3
I just watched the show tonight.
The best scene for me was Theon and Jon Snow alone. Well written, made better by great acting and the power of film to fully capture it in those closeups.
The best scene for me was Theon and Jon Snow alone. Well written, made better by great acting and the power of film to fully capture it in those closeups.
4
I feel that Euron is going to get a taste of Cersei's falseness & turn on her, if indeed she isn't already pregnant with his little Greyjoy.
I think that may be in play because I thought I saw genuine admiration for Dany when she landed with Drogon.
Offtopic: I would LOVE to land Drogon on top of the building of my workplace.
If he would go.....That would earn me some respect, or at least fear masked as such. LOL
I think that may be in play because I thought I saw genuine admiration for Dany when she landed with Drogon.
Offtopic: I would LOVE to land Drogon on top of the building of my workplace.
If he would go.....That would earn me some respect, or at least fear masked as such. LOL
2
I had to binge-watch most of this season and so I missed most of the past recaps and comments. While I don't follow many of the technical details--what the heck is Azor Ahai?--I do usually keep most of the characters straight. For the last few seasons, I said during nearly every episode, whatever happened to that goldsmith Barathean kid? And there he suddenly was! Did everyone else do a big forehead slap when Benjen swooped in and saved Jon? (Love that actor though--could always use more of him.) Just waiting for the direwolves to figure in again. Tying up loose ends aside, I'm not so much looking forward to what next season brings. I can tell I'm in the minority, but I've never been a big fan of the action in the north, or even really Dany and the dragons, once the Drago part was over. I always like the Lannister intrigues the best. I think a show like this is only as good as its worse villain and Joffrey and Cersei were and are such great villains. And as much as I love the character of Tyrion, who I think is the show's real hero, my favorite character is Jaime. Such a great portrayal by Coster-Waldau. So touchingly and maddingly flawed. And so handsome! Now, Littlefinger...I never really understood his end-game--just hanging around being creepy and sinister, hoping to land in the power seat? Yeah, yeah, he loved Caitlyn and Sansa, but he just seemed kind of superfluous. And his last bit of conniving seemed so amateur, not like him at all. Found it pretty contrived.
5
Benjen indeed is a whole lotta man candy.
2
@Kally
Didn't Jaime and Cersei start out as blonds? When you start paying attention to such irrelevant details as hair color, the storyline is losing you. And that Targaryan brother was a creep. How could Lyanne Stark fall for him? (Please forgive all misspelling of names.)
1
I keep reading these complaints about why doesn't Bran just set everyone straight since he knows "everything"? But he has stated quite clearly that what he knows is a jumble of bits and pieces, and it doesn't always fit together into a coherent picture. A narrative "excuse," perhaps, but a reasonable explanation for his lack of action. Cut the kid some slack. Just because you have access to a library, doesn't mean you know right where to look to answer a question. And Bran does not have access to Google, or even a decent card-catalog!
I thought it peculiar that we did not witness the "negotiations" between Tyrion and Cersei, and many have posited that Tyrion made a deal with her regarding succession to the throne. Possibly, but is that really his to grant? Also, everyone seems to assume that he is being played by his sister, but I suspect it is the other way around. Only Season 8 will reveal the truth.
I thought it peculiar that we did not witness the "negotiations" between Tyrion and Cersei, and many have posited that Tyrion made a deal with her regarding succession to the throne. Possibly, but is that really his to grant? Also, everyone seems to assume that he is being played by his sister, but I suspect it is the other way around. Only Season 8 will reveal the truth.
2
My view is that he offered himself, surrendered, if she acquiesced.
Does the NYT recap Outlander? If so, please join me there when Outlander begins in just over a week or so. I will also be watching that dreadful The Affair, the show I love to hate. This time last year, I discovered #Rectify - didn't know about it, because too many newspapers, including this one, didn't recap it. #FarewellRectify. I suggest a binge-watch of it until TWD returns. That and The Americans were the only TV series I ever purchased.
1
I am skeptical of romances, as so many insult my intelligence as a woman, so I have been reluctant to see Outlander. I have never seen it on this media site, but that does not mean it isn't there. Try Googling Outlander new York times. It will likely bring up any discussions. This is what I did with GoT.
If you don't find any, then email various authors & editors of this site and ask them to do this.
If you don't find any, then email various authors & editors of this site and ask them to do this.
2
OK, thanks!
Ahem—I believe you mean "HAND" around Cersei's throat, not "hands"
3
As far as finales go, IMO nothing compares to the Winds of Winter (S6 E10), but this one was pretty satisfying all around- with the exception of the auntie-nephew hookup which I don't condone- (I don't care how much incest was a part of those times!LOL) We've watched Dany aspire to rule the 7 kingdoms for 6 seasons and now that we know Jon is the rightful heir, we're going to either watch her relinquish something she's fought for or battle with her nephew for it? Not to mention, she has no family and he's been trying to figure out his family tree since 4ever- this should be a more sentimental, triumphant moment for both of them now it's going to be all awkward and just weird! Nope not into it....LOL
Aside from that, I was extremely satisfied with the Starks unite moment in collectively bringing down someone who essentially had their family destroyed because he was rejected. To see Littlefinger gravel and not come out triumphant was truly amazing!
Jaime leaving Cersei was epic considering that he has been so blinded by his love for her! I look forward to seeing Cersei's demise in our final season...while she is one of the best villains in quite some time...her destruction is long overdue.
I wish we could have gotten a little more R+L backstory because I still have so many questions and the flashbacks of last season were highlights for me last season! I loved the snow in King's Landing - so symbolic of what's to come! All in all great moments- can't wait for next season!
Aside from that, I was extremely satisfied with the Starks unite moment in collectively bringing down someone who essentially had their family destroyed because he was rejected. To see Littlefinger gravel and not come out triumphant was truly amazing!
Jaime leaving Cersei was epic considering that he has been so blinded by his love for her! I look forward to seeing Cersei's demise in our final season...while she is one of the best villains in quite some time...her destruction is long overdue.
I wish we could have gotten a little more R+L backstory because I still have so many questions and the flashbacks of last season were highlights for me last season! I loved the snow in King's Landing - so symbolic of what's to come! All in all great moments- can't wait for next season!
1
If anyone is still reading, I thought that the Wall was not just ICE but magic spells as well. I think it is the dragon's magic, as much as its fire that melted part of the Wall. Am I wrong?
6
There is definitely magic in the wall -- that's part of the lore. What I don't understand is this: because the wall was built to keep the whitewalkers OUT, why would a zombie dragon created by the Night King be able to tap into that magic to breach the wall? Or does the wall's magic not distinguish between "good" and "bad" dragons? Hmm. And, yes, still reading!
2
Starting way back--a bit in the show and a bit more in the books--it's hinted that the reason the Night King and the rest of the 'magical' aspects of the world are growing in power is that the Dragons have returned. (In the tv series, you can find in in the part with the wacky alchemist Tyrion talks to about wildfire before the first battle for King's Landing; he mentions that they've been following the same formula for decades, but lately the wildfire has seemed more active and wonders if there might be a dragon around somewhere.)
1
Yes, I remember that! So dragons bring their own special magic. Something Dany said in the season finale lends weight to this theory...as she was speaking to Jon about the Targaryens being diminished by how they kept their dragons....
While less complex than other seasons, S7 was incredibly satiating. I found myself cheering a few times as though it were a sporting event.
In regards the incest, I'm not particularly bothered by it. And what I mean by not particularly bothered is that I hope it continues. Is it wrong to find it incredibly sexy?
Needless to say, I still have six tension-filled episodes left in which to root these two on.
In regards the incest, I'm not particularly bothered by it. And what I mean by not particularly bothered is that I hope it continues. Is it wrong to find it incredibly sexy?
Needless to say, I still have six tension-filled episodes left in which to root these two on.
4
Tyrion's consternation at the Daenerys-Jon/Aegon coupling?
Tyrion promised Cerci that her unborn child would be made the next in line for the Iron Throne if Cerci is ousted or dies, thus solving the problem of the Daenerys baroness and legacy.
However, Daenerys may not be childless for long, since a witch who hated her was the one that diagnosed her inability to procreate. Hence, Tyrion's concern.
Tyrion promised Cerci that her unborn child would be made the next in line for the Iron Throne if Cerci is ousted or dies, thus solving the problem of the Daenerys baroness and legacy.
However, Daenerys may not be childless for long, since a witch who hated her was the one that diagnosed her inability to procreate. Hence, Tyrion's concern.
5
That's probably it...WOW. I don't buy the Tyrion loves Dany theories. She seems too different in many ways from the other women he seemed to love (not a hooker, lol).
There has been nothing to give an indication in all this time that he had any attraction to her. He also doesn't seem to be the type of man who loves women who don't love him.
So I agree with you.
There has been nothing to give an indication in all this time that he had any attraction to her. He also doesn't seem to be the type of man who loves women who don't love him.
So I agree with you.
It's probably been theorized already below, and it's just a guess, but after a second and third watching I get the feeling that Tyrion made some kind of deal to give himself to Cersei after the White Walkers are defeated to do with as she wishes as part of the "deal" to get her to join the fight-- which is all part of her plans to betray everyone anyway, of course, because that's just how she rolls.
3
That was my belief, too. But Addy Pose made a compelling case for his secret deal being line of succession.
What's the big deal, incest has always been a royal staple. Is nephew, aunt actually incest? In any case neither one knew, so that makes it all right. You go Jon.
Dany is a first blood line descendant of Aegon T., she's has 1st legal right to the Iron Throne, not second generation Jon. The piano does not write the concerto.
Dany is a first blood line descendant of Aegon T., she's has 1st legal right to the Iron Throne, not second generation Jon. The piano does not write the concerto.
4
Yeah, it's incest. I just did a search because my head was spinning trying to figure it out. First cousins did marry in royal families. They share 12.5% DNA (or something like that). Aunts and nephews share 25% DNA, so that's not so good (but certainly not the 50% of fully siblings). But this scenario doesn't bother me either. They don't know they're related, so is it technically incest? As far as legal heir goes, is it gender related or is it that he's the son of the legal heir?
Yes, it's incest; and, yes, it's a problem. Seriously, just go look up Charles II of Spain--the END of the Hapsburg rule of Spain. It will show you the definitive problems of pruning the family tree too much.
The last time we saw the Unsullied (before the season finale), they were stranded at High Castle (?) because their fleet was decimated. Now, at the beginning of the season finale they are standing on guard with the Dothraki waiting to strike Jaime Lannister's army. And that's the last we see of them. Where are they? How did they get there? And what happened?? Because Bronn and Jaime made it back to Kings Landing without a scratch.
3
I was about to ask for a reminder on why Ned hid Jon's identity, but I looked online and found this beauty of a website where so many questions can be answered.
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Rhaegar_Targaryen
So now I ask why did Rhaegar give his two sons the same name?
Also, I'd like to say that it was about time the 3eyed Drip helped move things along, even if it was too much too fast. Couldn't take any more of that one without some helpful substance.
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Rhaegar_Targaryen
So now I ask why did Rhaegar give his two sons the same name?
Also, I'd like to say that it was about time the 3eyed Drip helped move things along, even if it was too much too fast. Couldn't take any more of that one without some helpful substance.
In Caprica, we learn that a new child will be named after a deceased child in the same family who was born before him.
I love your reviews! They are not only funny but take the show at just the right degree of seriousness/non-seriousness. Really well done, sorry to only be discovering your column (and the legion comments!) during season 7.
My recent thought this week was, with the wight walkers now over the wall, it seems to me unlikely that the battle against the Night King will be the denouement of the final season--that battle is going to happen sooner than later. what if Gendry decides that he has a right to the throne (assuming this whole thing doesn't end with a wight walker take-over)? And what if he and Jon/Aegon duke it out for the Iron Throne, barathian v. Targherian? did they really bring Gendry back just to be a messenger? And he seems not as altruistic as when we first met him, though seasons ago I predicted he and Arya would end up together, which I suppose is still a possibility. Your comment about the Hound and Brienne beaming like proud parents--such an apt description.
It's been a lot of fun this season, especially seeing all these characters finally interacting. How long must we wait for season 8? Hard to believe we've been watching for 7 years...fun stuff.
Congrats to you on a job well done.
My recent thought this week was, with the wight walkers now over the wall, it seems to me unlikely that the battle against the Night King will be the denouement of the final season--that battle is going to happen sooner than later. what if Gendry decides that he has a right to the throne (assuming this whole thing doesn't end with a wight walker take-over)? And what if he and Jon/Aegon duke it out for the Iron Throne, barathian v. Targherian? did they really bring Gendry back just to be a messenger? And he seems not as altruistic as when we first met him, though seasons ago I predicted he and Arya would end up together, which I suppose is still a possibility. Your comment about the Hound and Brienne beaming like proud parents--such an apt description.
It's been a lot of fun this season, especially seeing all these characters finally interacting. How long must we wait for season 8? Hard to believe we've been watching for 7 years...fun stuff.
Congrats to you on a job well done.
4
I wonder if the dragon will be able to break free of the zombie king? They seem to be immune to much of what effect mankind.
2
Here are my predictions for season 8. The two literary "lost ends" are Bran's story and the red witch, Melisandre, both of which much time has been spent developing. Therefore, both will have an oversized role to play in the final season. Bran may or may not be the Night King, but if not, is somehow related to his rise. We know that Melisandre is very old and was probably around during the first war with the Night King and that somehow, the original Three Eyed Raven was involved. So I predict that she will manage to kill (or restore) the resurrected dragon and that she, along with Bran, will be two of the Season 8 fatalities. Jon Snow will probably be forced to kill his adoptive brother, Bran, hence the bittersweet ending we've heard about. Jon may decide not to end up with Daenerys since they are related but I think that is far less likely. Sansa never had her marriage to Tyrion annulled (and we did find out there are annulments in this world). However, she will decide that Tyrion is a good man and to remain married to him. She and Tyrion will be part of the Daenerys/Jon, dynasty. Oh, and Daenerys will be pregnant. Jaime will most likely not make it out of the season alive. If he survives, he will be gravely hurt, and maybe into the arms of Brienne. And of course Cersei is a goner. Perhaps the "NIght Queen"?
1
Meli is 400 years old.
How come none of the Starks ever miss their mother? They talk about Ned and how they miss him. They talk about Rob. But no one has mentioned Catelyn
7
I agree Cat deserves better, but from a practical point of view, I think it's because the writers are afraid if they mention Catelyn that the audience will see it as a sign that they are somehow bringing in Lady Stoneheart, so they avoid mentioning Catelyn any more than they have to.
1
Wasn't the Wall coming down part of Bran's vision or did it really happen ?
1
Doesn't matter. Whatever Bran sees, it did/does/will happen.
1
Also one other recommendation to your web developers Jeremy, please tell them to put the actual time stamp for a comment was submitted and/or posted. This way we can go back and see responses other people have made to our comments/questions. Right now having 500 comments that simply say 1 day or 2 days ago, doesn't help.
6
Elephants are not a problem. Just like Aragorn, Jon will raise an army of the dead and bring down the elephants. Oh wait....
2
Who knew GOT people already knew imbibing wine is a risk during pregnancy?
1
I can see you point. But I don't think That is Tyrion's style. He definitely isn't into hurting or killing kids, the down-trodden, the sick or fetuses. He may fantasize killing Cersei (I would) but it's not in his nature.
So Cersei will be Hannibal with her elephants. I hope they don't get hurt, we have already lost too many of them.
2
Daario, leading the Golden Company, will be summoned up by Cercei giving Dany an opening while Cercei tries to betray her. Though devastated by Danny's rejection he will never betray her. He may march to Westeros setting up an erotically charged alternative to the clearly inappropriate Euron. This flirtation will free Jaime up for other narrative lines (and romances?) as he heads North and potentially interacts with the Starks and their ilk. Ultimately, Daario will not betray his lingering love for Dany, setting up a potential fifth column in Cercei's camp. A Daario Cercei sex scene and an eventual assassination? Though Cercei seems indestructible (and she is certainly indispensable as a narrative device and epitome of utter evil), her weak point is sex (and love of her children, a related issue). Hopefully Season 7 will culminate with a gratifying assassination of Cercei after a climactic sex scene a la Fatal Attraction.
As for the Dany and Jon liaison, the narrative sets up a "we can rule as partners and equals" type of contemporary feminist scenario that has informed the story arc. Obviously that cannot ultimately be--legitimately--if they are aunt and nephew. I assume one of them will be killed off since the story will need a big sacrificial climax. (Daario-Dany reunion after he declares his loyalty?) But Dany has always ruled as a lone wolf--Jon will impregnate her with new dragons and she will rule alone, that is, if good prevails. But death always wins.
As for the Dany and Jon liaison, the narrative sets up a "we can rule as partners and equals" type of contemporary feminist scenario that has informed the story arc. Obviously that cannot ultimately be--legitimately--if they are aunt and nephew. I assume one of them will be killed off since the story will need a big sacrificial climax. (Daario-Dany reunion after he declares his loyalty?) But Dany has always ruled as a lone wolf--Jon will impregnate her with new dragons and she will rule alone, that is, if good prevails. But death always wins.
2
Pooh-pooh to the cynics. The final episode was an-all round smash. Period.
It showed what can be done when you marry a tawdry TV Soap Opera and Hollywood Blockbuster: you can give your audience 80-minutes of all-killer-no-filler entertainment.
We got to enjoy: a Meeting of the Five Families from Godfather in Westeros; Han Solo finally hooking up with Princess Leia in Dany's cabin. A classic You-Can't-Handle-Truth-style courtroom showdown in Winterfell... with a dash of Paul Reiser trying to weasel out of it to Ripley action from Little Finger, just before Arya iced him like Michael Corleone doing Sullozzo...
We also had Rocky beats Apollo (or Clubber Lang, maybe) in the Ironborn showdown on the beach.
Capped off at the end with an Independence-Day-blowing-up-the- White-House-style smackdown at the Wall (complete Turmound making like Bill Pullman and escaping in the nick of time..)
Not to mention the other half-dozen or so sublime one-off moments between friends and enemies reuniting after years.
And it all made sense to an audience deeply invested in a story that has unfolded over 70 or 80 hours on screen! It was dazzling.
It showed what can be done when you marry a tawdry TV Soap Opera and Hollywood Blockbuster: you can give your audience 80-minutes of all-killer-no-filler entertainment.
We got to enjoy: a Meeting of the Five Families from Godfather in Westeros; Han Solo finally hooking up with Princess Leia in Dany's cabin. A classic You-Can't-Handle-Truth-style courtroom showdown in Winterfell... with a dash of Paul Reiser trying to weasel out of it to Ripley action from Little Finger, just before Arya iced him like Michael Corleone doing Sullozzo...
We also had Rocky beats Apollo (or Clubber Lang, maybe) in the Ironborn showdown on the beach.
Capped off at the end with an Independence-Day-blowing-up-the- White-House-style smackdown at the Wall (complete Turmound making like Bill Pullman and escaping in the nick of time..)
Not to mention the other half-dozen or so sublime one-off moments between friends and enemies reuniting after years.
And it all made sense to an audience deeply invested in a story that has unfolded over 70 or 80 hours on screen! It was dazzling.
7
So, Mr. Egner, thanks once again for the great job of recapping all these episodes, and I'd like to offer an idea. It's going to be a long dry spell before the next season; sometime soon, how about an article with a comments section, discussing possibilities for what the endgame will be?
There are a lot of questions we fans would probably like to debate, like who's going to wind up on the throne, what's going to happen to the main characters, and so on. So if you'd like to do it, I'd like to see an article musing about next season way in advance, and I'd bet most people commenting here would too. Cheers!
There are a lot of questions we fans would probably like to debate, like who's going to wind up on the throne, what's going to happen to the main characters, and so on. So if you'd like to do it, I'd like to see an article musing about next season way in advance, and I'd bet most people commenting here would too. Cheers!
9
I second Dan's motion!
5
Ooh, I like that idea. Kind of an amuse bouche for the GOT devotees.
1
I still have a problem with how the Night King brought the dragon Viserion (Viserion? So, a name sorta like Dany's stupid brother, right? I think that that is intentional) up from the lake bed? The dead can't swim, so HOW did they dive to the bottom of the lake bed to wrap those huge chains around Viserion? And where did those huge chains come from so quickly? And I guess the Night King really does not speak, because I did not hear him say something like "Dracaris" when dead Viserion began spewing those blue flames out of its mouth. It took Dany years to teach "Dracaris" to her dragons, but the Night King mentally instructed his newly-dead dragon to spew ice-flames immediately?
I could have done without the nephew-auntie thing.
I could have done without the nephew-auntie thing.
3
Since Season 7 Is Over We Will Have To Look At Some Game Of Thrones Alternatives.
I Guess They Will Work. Not As Cool AS GOT. Still.
http://themagzone.com/best-game-of-thrones-alternatives/
Is Guess House Of Cards Is The Only One.
I Guess They Will Work. Not As Cool AS GOT. Still.
http://themagzone.com/best-game-of-thrones-alternatives/
Is Guess House Of Cards Is The Only One.
Outlander. TWD. The Affair. Homeland.
Wesrworld.
1
After watching it again, I started wondering about some of our favorite second-stringers--just who is headed North and who is staying behind? We saw Jaime ride out on his own . . . so is Bronn already with Tyrion, going to catch up with Jaime later, staying in King's Landing to 'do well for himself' there with Cersei, or . . . jumping the first ship he can find to head off to parts unknown? Did the Hound stay in King's Landing to go after his own walking dead or is he headed back North with the others?
1
Am I the only one outraged that they did not mention Ghost? The Dire wolves are very important in the books. The opening scene where the Stark children and Ned (RIP) find the dead Dire and her pups was the first paragraph George R.R. Martin ever wrote. I don't care about $7,000 wigs, and huge doors at dragonstone that we see for 10 seconds and dead polar bears! Stop spending the budget on that crap. I want to see Ghost and Lymeria. They can help in this Great War. Jeremy, can you get word to the writers? Send a raven perhaps?
7
Please, no "Jonerys" - the fad of combining names should have died (and remained an inanimate corpse) in the 90's.
The stillness and discipline of the Unsullied contrasted with the wildness of the screaming Dothraki riding between them was beautiful poetry.
The stillness and discipline of the Unsullied contrasted with the wildness of the screaming Dothraki riding between them was beautiful poetry.
2
My only comment is that 'The incest is my raven' is truly my favorite sentence of the week. If this TV reviewing gig ever dries up, you should get a job writing lyrics for Nine Inch Nails.
Best,
Graeme
Best,
Graeme
1
Tyron is smart and clever, but shrewd? He always has led with his heart. He married a woman his father chose to manipulate him. He allowed his feelings for Shae to make him make very unshrewd decisions about her, which led to him killing her and his father. His decisions this season were all about him trying to protect both Daenerys and his own family, especially Jaime (and even Bronn!). When one's head and heart are torn this way, shrewd goes out the window. Tyrion has always made his worst decisions when he's in love - and I think he loves Daenerys, in a more platonic way than he normally loves, but it is love - he BELIEVES in her. I think he's been completely consistent in character this year.
2
Ever read Myth of the Birth of the Hero? Myths across cultures start with the hero not knowing who his parents are and much later finding out. Two examples are Moses and Oedipus,, who even worse killed his father and married his mother.
Current mythic sagas follow the same pattern. Luke Skywalker doesn't know who his father or mother are, and how special he is. Harry Potter also fits, growing up abused and unaware of his powers.
Jon Snow fits right in. Thinking of himself as a bastard and believing Ned Stark was his father. But just like all those other myths, he will find out who his true parents were, and how special he is in terms of being a true king.
This isn't a coincidence. I'm sure the creative talents who conceived of Luke, Harry and Jon must have deep knowledge of mythology, especially with a psychoanalytic set of related insights. Very clever of GRRM and the show runners to keep us guessing so long and even the people who figured out early who Jon's parents were, we didn't know he was the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne.
Now, Jon may have just had sex with his aunt, but that is nothing compared to marrying your mother ad killing your father. Ha ha.
Current mythic sagas follow the same pattern. Luke Skywalker doesn't know who his father or mother are, and how special he is. Harry Potter also fits, growing up abused and unaware of his powers.
Jon Snow fits right in. Thinking of himself as a bastard and believing Ned Stark was his father. But just like all those other myths, he will find out who his true parents were, and how special he is in terms of being a true king.
This isn't a coincidence. I'm sure the creative talents who conceived of Luke, Harry and Jon must have deep knowledge of mythology, especially with a psychoanalytic set of related insights. Very clever of GRRM and the show runners to keep us guessing so long and even the people who figured out early who Jon's parents were, we didn't know he was the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne.
Now, Jon may have just had sex with his aunt, but that is nothing compared to marrying your mother ad killing your father. Ha ha.
13
Absolutely true that it is a classic myth. Joseph Campbell wrote about it in "The Hero with a Thousand Faces." George Lucas was inspired by Campbell's book for Luke Skywalker's story in "Star Wars."
1
The book title you are looking for is "Hero with a Thousand Faces" by Joseph Campbell. He also discussed the issue in the PBS Mini-series "The Power of Myth" which then became a book of the same title.
2
I post about heroic typology almost every week. Do you ever read my posts?
2
Is the Golden Company army coming with AK47s and tanks, because 25k men does not seem like it's enough to do the trick, regardless of which army type (living/dead) they face.
14
Well, Cersei DID say they might have elephants.
1
The scene during which The Hound unboxes the captured wight- the look on his face when he is not sure if the creature is dead, and then he gives it a poke- acting just does not get much better. Despite some plot improbabilities I have never enjoyed television more than GOT, nothing really even comes close......
18
Part of the genius of the finale, was that in almost every scene it felt like anyone could die.
The summit in the dragon pit before Cersi arrives, with Tyrion eyeing the bleachers and expecting an ambush that kills everyone (sort of like the Red Wedding)
The Littlefinger/Sansa scene, where Littlefinger begins discussing the "game" he likes to play (which riffs on Arya's "game" and makes you think it's really Arya in a Littlefinger-mask about to kill Sansa for what she says next)
The Theon-Jon seen on Dragonstone, which feels like a broken Theon is about to stab Jon as part of a pre-arranged deal with Euron to free Theon's sister (a la Michael trying to get his son back in "Lost"...)
And that's before we even get to the more direct tension scenes like "Cersei killing Tyrion" or "Cersei killing Jaime" or "the hound killing the mountain" (or vice versa) or the finale in Winterfell.
It has felt a little this season that the plot is getting too predictable/typecast without the typical George R.R. Martin twists and killing off of likable characters. Although not too, too much along those lines happened in the Season 7 finale, it at least felt like an intentional homage to those roots.
The summit in the dragon pit before Cersi arrives, with Tyrion eyeing the bleachers and expecting an ambush that kills everyone (sort of like the Red Wedding)
The Littlefinger/Sansa scene, where Littlefinger begins discussing the "game" he likes to play (which riffs on Arya's "game" and makes you think it's really Arya in a Littlefinger-mask about to kill Sansa for what she says next)
The Theon-Jon seen on Dragonstone, which feels like a broken Theon is about to stab Jon as part of a pre-arranged deal with Euron to free Theon's sister (a la Michael trying to get his son back in "Lost"...)
And that's before we even get to the more direct tension scenes like "Cersei killing Tyrion" or "Cersei killing Jaime" or "the hound killing the mountain" (or vice versa) or the finale in Winterfell.
It has felt a little this season that the plot is getting too predictable/typecast without the typical George R.R. Martin twists and killing off of likable characters. Although not too, too much along those lines happened in the Season 7 finale, it at least felt like an intentional homage to those roots.
9
Re: Jon's proclamation of his ethics: He conveniently forgets his oath to the Nights of the Wall.
3
The oath: "Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death...."
When John died, his watch ended.
When John died, his watch ended.
5
He didn't forget. He fulfilled his vow to the letter--'my watch shall not end until my death.' He died, and the oath died with him.
7
The whole point of Jon being killed was it released him from his oath. He didn't forget anything and he's done nothing against his oath - he died, and that's when his Watch ended.
5
Correction: Nights Watch, not Nights ofthe Wall
3
I don't imagine we'll see Daario Naharis at the head of the Golden Company, will we? The boyfriend's back and there's gonna be trouble?
6
unless he is the actual fulfillment of the Betrayal Prophecy - the part of betrayal for love. It seems too heavy handed to have him turn against Dany.
I hope we don't see Daario come back in role of betrayer - I have liked the treatment for this character very much.
I hope we don't see Daario come back in role of betrayer - I have liked the treatment for this character very much.
1
I admit I was kind of hoping the Jon and Dany thing wouldn't happen. There's just that "ick" factor, and since it's two characters you really like, it's confusing. Of course, it's also classic GoT to muck things up for the messy humans, even the good ones.
I loved the season. Watched each episode in the dark with several family members gasping and clapping and hiding their eyes. Yes, some things were "predictable" in that some hints came to pass -- there's nothing wrong with that. Not every move needs to be a shocking twist. That comes across as manipulative all on its own (see Shyamalan, M. Knight).
If it felt a little less gut-wrenching, my brain was glad for fewer strange, violent dreams. The season felt a little like it was a passageway, a path or a tunnel or whatever, taking you from one place to another with some fascinating views along the way. And now when it resumes, we will arrive. (Note: Buy sleep aids before November 2018)
I loved the season. Watched each episode in the dark with several family members gasping and clapping and hiding their eyes. Yes, some things were "predictable" in that some hints came to pass -- there's nothing wrong with that. Not every move needs to be a shocking twist. That comes across as manipulative all on its own (see Shyamalan, M. Knight).
If it felt a little less gut-wrenching, my brain was glad for fewer strange, violent dreams. The season felt a little like it was a passageway, a path or a tunnel or whatever, taking you from one place to another with some fascinating views along the way. And now when it resumes, we will arrive. (Note: Buy sleep aids before November 2018)
4
November 2018? I hear that the final season won't be shown until April 2019, because of production issues. And that the final season will be only 6 episodes, in APRIL 2019.
I loved the Finale. I thought it was the best show of the year with great performances all around. I loved Jeremy's recaps. They helped me fill in my many gaps in understanding the history of the characters. But I love the readers' comments the most and look forward to reading them. Not sure I'll get through all 1017 of the ones for this show. But I'm always amazed at the detailed knowledge so many people have for the stories from the books and the shows. I have always had a terrible memory for names and this show has really taxed that part of my brain. As for next year, I still think Jon's not going to get to the end. It would be too nice an ending and GOT always surprises. But I will be rooting for Arya to dispatch Cersei after the Hound takes out the Mountain.
5
I agree with your unease about Dany and Jon's now incestuous relationship. It is part of the culture of the Lannisters, but Jon and Dany are supposed to be the good guys in this saga and incest leaves a bad taste. Then there is the upcoming power struggle when they find out that Jon is the real heir to the Iron Throne. I can't see Dany as the subordinate wife.
5
Dany and Jon don't know they're related, so they get a pass on this, for now,
3
Since Dany can't seem to have children, and all her past ancestors interbred, maybe interbreeding is the only way to have a child and survive for her. Even Lyana (sp) Stark died giving birth to Jon Snow. Could it be because there are differences in their DNA or physical structures that Dany could only have a baby with someone with at least half Targaryan blood?
I also wonder if Bran might be able to put his mind into Visarion the dragon, like he does with birds, animals and Hodor. That might spook the Night King. However the Night King knows where Bran is because he marked him.
I think the ending will probably be Jon Snow/Aegon Targaryan and the Night King. What if Jon Snow dies. It comes back as Azor Ahai, resurrected?
I love seeing Arya so strong and brilliant and confident.
But really with Tyrion could find a great woman, settle down and have some great kids. Let him put his feet up in his own Library with the best wine while having philosophical,healing and intelligent sharing of stories with Samwell.
I also wonder if Bran might be able to put his mind into Visarion the dragon, like he does with birds, animals and Hodor. That might spook the Night King. However the Night King knows where Bran is because he marked him.
I think the ending will probably be Jon Snow/Aegon Targaryan and the Night King. What if Jon Snow dies. It comes back as Azor Ahai, resurrected?
I love seeing Arya so strong and brilliant and confident.
But really with Tyrion could find a great woman, settle down and have some great kids. Let him put his feet up in his own Library with the best wine while having philosophical,healing and intelligent sharing of stories with Samwell.
11
Melanie, what a great comment! Loads of goodies.
I can't image a less romantic love-interest consummation than the one between Jon and Dany. He in his impervious leather, she all twisted up in braids. She's not used to tender men, and Jon is as tender-hearted (and inexperienced) as they get. That adoring, confused-by-his-love look from Jon took Dany by surprise (and melted her heart). Wish we had seen more of it. Remember the old days of GoT when the storyline was advanced during steamy sex scenes? I suppose it did here too with the juxtaposition of his birth, but couldn't they just love each other for a minute before the real world came crashing in, advancing the plot-line? And, couldn't they have been a little more loose and happy and steamy about it?
Also, Dany is not giving up her throne. She is brave, strong, determined, smart, and I will be so pissed off if she becomes a wishy-washy woman who caves to her love for Jon -- aunt or not. (Flashback: Queen Amidala and Anakin Skywalker). She will be the ruler of the seven kingdoms, and sit her tiny dragon bum on the iron throne. I predict Jon and Dany will co-parent Rhaegar Ned -- he as King of the north; she as Queen from Westeros. Cersei will die in childbirth (a very bloody, difficult birth, all alone in the woods or a dungeon) delivering a girl, Tyriana, and the battle for the Seven Kingdoms continues.
Also, Dany is not giving up her throne. She is brave, strong, determined, smart, and I will be so pissed off if she becomes a wishy-washy woman who caves to her love for Jon -- aunt or not. (Flashback: Queen Amidala and Anakin Skywalker). She will be the ruler of the seven kingdoms, and sit her tiny dragon bum on the iron throne. I predict Jon and Dany will co-parent Rhaegar Ned -- he as King of the north; she as Queen from Westeros. Cersei will die in childbirth (a very bloody, difficult birth, all alone in the woods or a dungeon) delivering a girl, Tyriana, and the battle for the Seven Kingdoms continues.
10
For a woman who talks so much about egalitarianism, she sure puts a lot of stock into her "rightful", birth-born inheritance of the Iron Throne.
3
I think what Dany did to the Tarley's shows the kind of leader she's become (or is capable of becoming). And there are plenty of examples from past GoT season of ways to address being second in the line of succession....
I think Dany might die after giving birth to Jon / aegon's baby. like most Targaryen women die after giving birth.
1
Not necessarily. Rhaella gave birth to at least three children--Rhaegar, Viserys, and Dany--with a gap between Rhaegar and Dany of more than twenty years. That's not really evidence that most Targaryen women die in child birth.
1
Monday could not have been more interesting as the Episode 7 – The Dragon And The Wolf of Game Of Thrones Season 7 was a “WOW” Episode. Also the fact that this was the last episode of GOT S7, I am being a bit sad as to how our Monday mornings are going to be from next week.
Found This List On The Web. Amazing.
http://themagzone.com/best-moments-of-game-of-thrones-season-7/
Found This List On The Web. Amazing.
http://themagzone.com/best-moments-of-game-of-thrones-season-7/
1
Lots of carrying on about the evils of incest. Incest is a "crime" because of the genetic evils of inbreeding which seems a bit of a stretch applied to GOT. Perhaps any offspring will have an autosomal recessive inherited illness. I'll worry when it happens If it's "innocent" between people who only recently met, I'm not sure why it should be carried on about.
6
Guess you never red Oedipus
And for all the griping about the writing one can find online, I've seen no acknowledgment and due respect for the tidy parallels that were presented.
The major theme of parentage and progeny was artful enough:
1) There are two queens with potentially incestuous pregnancies, and yet one is everyone's fantasy while the other is a complete horror.
2) And each queen is also "mother" to a reanimated monster, the Mountain protecting Cersei and Viserion about to lay waste to the realm.
3) But what I appreciated most was that the Stark daughters unite and find their strength in lessons from their father, while Cersei divides and unravels in the lessons she learned from hers.
So perhaps we should appreciate that we really don't know where that leaves Daenerys, daughter of the Mad King.
Oh, and since Jon (aka, Aegon, the third son of Rhaegar and thus "the promised prince") will surely face off in an epic swordfight with the Night King, it was a cheeky parallel to have the show end with scenes of them mounting dragons, one hotly creating and one coldly destroying.
Thank you, writers!
The major theme of parentage and progeny was artful enough:
1) There are two queens with potentially incestuous pregnancies, and yet one is everyone's fantasy while the other is a complete horror.
2) And each queen is also "mother" to a reanimated monster, the Mountain protecting Cersei and Viserion about to lay waste to the realm.
3) But what I appreciated most was that the Stark daughters unite and find their strength in lessons from their father, while Cersei divides and unravels in the lessons she learned from hers.
So perhaps we should appreciate that we really don't know where that leaves Daenerys, daughter of the Mad King.
Oh, and since Jon (aka, Aegon, the third son of Rhaegar and thus "the promised prince") will surely face off in an epic swordfight with the Night King, it was a cheeky parallel to have the show end with scenes of them mounting dragons, one hotly creating and one coldly destroying.
Thank you, writers!
29
Add the two 'sons' of Ned Stark that are really sons of his heart and teaching, but not his body--Jon and Theon.
1
I really don't care, I loved every minute of every episode. And, unlike our squeamish reviewer, I didn't mind the incest one bit. With an aunt like Dany, who wouldn't overlook the moralistic conventions of our time, which really should have little business in a story of a time that includes dragons, armies of the dead, and Red Weddings.
When Dany landed at the Kings Landing meeting with Cersei, I was overcome with exultation. A grander entrance I cannot imagine. And when Viserion eviscerated The Wall where it met the sea, I was awestruck. And when Little Finger finally met his comeuppance at the hands of Sansa and Arya, I was ecstatic.
Call me shallow, but this season's Game of Thrones did everything for me that I could hope for. After all, it's an exciting and fascinating TV show, not an in depth account of The War of the Roses.
When Dany landed at the Kings Landing meeting with Cersei, I was overcome with exultation. A grander entrance I cannot imagine. And when Viserion eviscerated The Wall where it met the sea, I was awestruck. And when Little Finger finally met his comeuppance at the hands of Sansa and Arya, I was ecstatic.
Call me shallow, but this season's Game of Thrones did everything for me that I could hope for. After all, it's an exciting and fascinating TV show, not an in depth account of The War of the Roses.
31
I must be well-immersed in the GoT world since the incest scene no longer bothers me (esp since they didn't know), but will this turn into an Oedipus situation for Jon? I wonder whether Bran - if he truly sees all - would learn that he is too late and consider holding back knowledge ?
Exposing and killing Littlefinger was definitely the most satisfying event of the entire season - some fans actually predicted the scene, while I did wonder whether Sansa had lost it. But that is little gained compared to all that has been lost.
The naivete of the good guys regarding Cersei is truly difficult to accept- she even honestly told them why it made no sense for her to participate, and yet they didn't want to hear. Of course this is all to complicate the plot, between providing an ice dragon on one side, and not watching for betrayal on the other (hope Jaime will at least enlighten them in time), but it makes it annoying - no one likes to see intelligent, brave heroes do dumb things for the sake of the story.
It didn't make sense to me for the two of them to sail to White Harbor when they could get there much faster by dragon (the rest can join them later)! Time is of the essence in the North. Surely another device to force the storyline.
Still, this is GoT and I can't wait for next season (if they felt rushed by the fewer number of episodes, why not another season ?)
Exposing and killing Littlefinger was definitely the most satisfying event of the entire season - some fans actually predicted the scene, while I did wonder whether Sansa had lost it. But that is little gained compared to all that has been lost.
The naivete of the good guys regarding Cersei is truly difficult to accept- she even honestly told them why it made no sense for her to participate, and yet they didn't want to hear. Of course this is all to complicate the plot, between providing an ice dragon on one side, and not watching for betrayal on the other (hope Jaime will at least enlighten them in time), but it makes it annoying - no one likes to see intelligent, brave heroes do dumb things for the sake of the story.
It didn't make sense to me for the two of them to sail to White Harbor when they could get there much faster by dragon (the rest can join them later)! Time is of the essence in the North. Surely another device to force the storyline.
Still, this is GoT and I can't wait for next season (if they felt rushed by the fewer number of episodes, why not another season ?)
4
I love your point about Cersei. They should know something is going on with her. Even with the talk with Tyrion she made it too easy.
Please advise, folks:
1. Why did the show choose to eliminate Yara from the last several episodes? That has felt so off-kilter, as Yara had been something of a critical character up to that point. My prediction, Theon will save her (and sacrifice his own life) but she will die anyway.
2. Why did we need the mini-scene where Bronn and Podrick wander off for a beer? Something must be up with that -- I'd say Bronn was using that as an opportunity to get a message to Jon that he (Bronn) wants to switch sides. My guess: Jaime knew, after Cersei asked "When are you going to punish [i.e. kill] Bron for his betrayal?" that he (Jamie) had to warn Bronn, and Bronn decided to take the logical next step. Also, there was no point, otherwise, for Brienne to be King's Landing; she was supposed to represent Sansa, but had no real role in the strategic/political discussion.
3. The witch was batting 1,000 when she prophesied that all Cersei's children would wear crowns, and then shrouds. If Cersei is pregnant by Jamie, then it seems there's a reasonable chance this fetus is going to be deformed. Giving birth to a dwarf would be a true irony, yes? It would cause her to kill the baby -- and that would cause Jamie to kill her, since we know Jamie sees Tyrion as a person and a brother, not just as a dwarf. And from a plot perspective, there's no reason for her to have a baby.
4. When/if Jon finds out he's Dany's nephew, he'll do the right thing. No more incest. Right?
1. Why did the show choose to eliminate Yara from the last several episodes? That has felt so off-kilter, as Yara had been something of a critical character up to that point. My prediction, Theon will save her (and sacrifice his own life) but she will die anyway.
2. Why did we need the mini-scene where Bronn and Podrick wander off for a beer? Something must be up with that -- I'd say Bronn was using that as an opportunity to get a message to Jon that he (Bronn) wants to switch sides. My guess: Jaime knew, after Cersei asked "When are you going to punish [i.e. kill] Bron for his betrayal?" that he (Jamie) had to warn Bronn, and Bronn decided to take the logical next step. Also, there was no point, otherwise, for Brienne to be King's Landing; she was supposed to represent Sansa, but had no real role in the strategic/political discussion.
3. The witch was batting 1,000 when she prophesied that all Cersei's children would wear crowns, and then shrouds. If Cersei is pregnant by Jamie, then it seems there's a reasonable chance this fetus is going to be deformed. Giving birth to a dwarf would be a true irony, yes? It would cause her to kill the baby -- and that would cause Jamie to kill her, since we know Jamie sees Tyrion as a person and a brother, not just as a dwarf. And from a plot perspective, there's no reason for her to have a baby.
4. When/if Jon finds out he's Dany's nephew, he'll do the right thing. No more incest. Right?
2
1) I've read with Yara the actress was very very pregnant during filming
2) It was a scene of reconnecting characters: Bronn and Podrick haven't been together since Season 2 or 3, Brienne and the Hound last saw each other when the Hound was mortally wounded, The Hound and the Mountain haven't been around each other since the Mountain wasn't a reanimated monster... as for why Brienne was there it's not like everyone in the North was as wholly convinced in the White Walker threat: Sansa was more concerned with Cersei to the south and she was barely alone in that fear. She may have little political savvy, but she could be trusted to be honest in what she saw in the findings and verify that Jon Snow wasn't a paranoid nutter.
3. Were this show somewhat just that should happen, but then the matter of her actually being pregnant given that she's still stringing Euron along are questionable. There's that or, by the relatively sexist logic of the society they're in with Cersei's throne claim being flimsy (Lannister of House Baratheon) the kid could be crowned, she's dropped down to powerful regent, and he dies anyway. Given the time period stillbirth or some other fate could occur and honestly Jaime's list of reasons to off her are much higher than infanticide.
4) Smart money is on Bran and Sam keeping their traps shut until the White Walker threat is neutralized unless they delve into the whole prophecy thing. North loyalty is still needed and they hate Targaryens as is.
2) It was a scene of reconnecting characters: Bronn and Podrick haven't been together since Season 2 or 3, Brienne and the Hound last saw each other when the Hound was mortally wounded, The Hound and the Mountain haven't been around each other since the Mountain wasn't a reanimated monster... as for why Brienne was there it's not like everyone in the North was as wholly convinced in the White Walker threat: Sansa was more concerned with Cersei to the south and she was barely alone in that fear. She may have little political savvy, but she could be trusted to be honest in what she saw in the findings and verify that Jon Snow wasn't a paranoid nutter.
3. Were this show somewhat just that should happen, but then the matter of her actually being pregnant given that she's still stringing Euron along are questionable. There's that or, by the relatively sexist logic of the society they're in with Cersei's throne claim being flimsy (Lannister of House Baratheon) the kid could be crowned, she's dropped down to powerful regent, and he dies anyway. Given the time period stillbirth or some other fate could occur and honestly Jaime's list of reasons to off her are much higher than infanticide.
4) Smart money is on Bran and Sam keeping their traps shut until the White Walker threat is neutralized unless they delve into the whole prophecy thing. North loyalty is still needed and they hate Targaryens as is.
I think the author has underestimated the Stark sisters, just as Littlefinger did. Arya and Sansa planned all along to trap Littlefinger. They didn't "finally" unite, their entire conflict was staged. Here are some of the clues:
When Arya followed Littlefinger she wanted him to know he was being watched. As a faceless man, she could have followed him unnoticed if she wanted to.
Arya and Sansa have all of their fights outside or with doors open because they know they are being watched.
Arya remembers what Sansa was wearing at their father's beheading but not that she was screaming and sobbing as it happened, hinting that everything is not as it seems.
During bedroom scene Arya is playing the game of faces, presenting lies as truths. She even says this! She lies convincingly about things that she knows Sansa will not believe, but Littlefinger will believe. She says she would never serve the Lannisters but she was Tywin's cup bearer. She says she wonders what it would be like to wear Sansa's "pretty dresses," even though she has never wanted to wear a dress. And she inaccurately recalls Sansa's reaction to their father's beheading. Finally, she hands Sansa Littlefinger’s dagger, signaling that she trusts her.
Sansa sends Brienne away because she knows Arya won't hurt her, and wants Littlefinger to think that she is vulnerable.
The sisters conferred with Bran when he gave Littlefinger's dagger to Arya. He wouldn't have done this if he thought she would use it to kill Sansa.
When Arya followed Littlefinger she wanted him to know he was being watched. As a faceless man, she could have followed him unnoticed if she wanted to.
Arya and Sansa have all of their fights outside or with doors open because they know they are being watched.
Arya remembers what Sansa was wearing at their father's beheading but not that she was screaming and sobbing as it happened, hinting that everything is not as it seems.
During bedroom scene Arya is playing the game of faces, presenting lies as truths. She even says this! She lies convincingly about things that she knows Sansa will not believe, but Littlefinger will believe. She says she would never serve the Lannisters but she was Tywin's cup bearer. She says she wonders what it would be like to wear Sansa's "pretty dresses," even though she has never wanted to wear a dress. And she inaccurately recalls Sansa's reaction to their father's beheading. Finally, she hands Sansa Littlefinger’s dagger, signaling that she trusts her.
Sansa sends Brienne away because she knows Arya won't hurt her, and wants Littlefinger to think that she is vulnerable.
The sisters conferred with Bran when he gave Littlefinger's dagger to Arya. He wouldn't have done this if he thought she would use it to kill Sansa.
18
To add (begin) your list: when Sansa brought Arya out to see Bran, there's a gap between the time he gives Arya the knife and mentions her list (Sansa's 'who else is on your list?') and when the three children walk back into the castle. I offer the possibility that that is when the three children of Ned and Catelyn decided to remove the cause of their parents' misery and demises.
8
I personally think that a son will be born from Dany and Jon and that he is "the one" promised.I think Jon will die but only after he kills the lord king night walker with the aid of his trusty pal Snow who will also die.
4
Completely agree!
Assuming you mean Ghost (his direwolf).
Uh . . . I think the issue is that Jon is already "the one promised." He was born the third child of Rhaegar, and he died, but was reborn.
I believe Cersei is pregnant. Since Jaime is father, there's a good chance her baby will be a dwarf (in fact, there are many ways dwarfism can be inherited). She will die in childbirth.
2
Another commenter said this. Why is there a good chance? I guess you can't rule this out, but they did have 3 children together who weren't dwarves.
I've been a sci-fi/fantasy buff for many years, but never encountered such a wonderful, immersive experience as Game of Thrones. While the bloodshed and sex are certainly entertaining and integral to the total experience, for me the best of the show has been character development. The small moments, the hushed conversations, the intrigue, during which you understand what's going on, because you've really gotten to know these "people", is what I have loved the most. Yeah, one could quibble about some plotting, and I got lost a few times when Dany was dealing with all those other strange civilizations, but all that pales before the immense enjoyment that the saga has brought.
6
A lot of consternation over what seems nothing more than Tyrion's consternation. He is troubled by events, but nothing in his background shows him to be an underhanded schemer. Despite the season finale's predictable (and welcome) resolutions, the show/text generally doesn't telegraph too much.
I would caution that the swift and surgical removals of Yara Greyjoy, Ellaria Sand and Olenna Tyrell point to Varys and his spy network. Varys may claim to be out for peace in the realm, but he was born a slave in Lys, made his name as a thief, and the beginning of "the rot in King Aerys's reign" (per Barristan Selmy). Littlefinger was Varys's protege and unwitting pawn, thinking he could profit from the chaos that he and Varys have masterminded.
Varys' noble cause seems to be for commoners, and his view was explained to Ned Stark:
"Why is it always the innocents who suffer most, when you high lords play your game of thrones?"
He wants the game to end. Dany is more of the same. Varys would prefer anarchy or, at most, a humble ruler like Jon Snow (who is the "promised prince," Aegon, of prophecy and will kill the Night King!)
I would caution that the swift and surgical removals of Yara Greyjoy, Ellaria Sand and Olenna Tyrell point to Varys and his spy network. Varys may claim to be out for peace in the realm, but he was born a slave in Lys, made his name as a thief, and the beginning of "the rot in King Aerys's reign" (per Barristan Selmy). Littlefinger was Varys's protege and unwitting pawn, thinking he could profit from the chaos that he and Varys have masterminded.
Varys' noble cause seems to be for commoners, and his view was explained to Ned Stark:
"Why is it always the innocents who suffer most, when you high lords play your game of thrones?"
He wants the game to end. Dany is more of the same. Varys would prefer anarchy or, at most, a humble ruler like Jon Snow (who is the "promised prince," Aegon, of prophecy and will kill the Night King!)
2
I've been wondering whether Varys is the one who tipped off Euron and Jaime about Tyrion's/Dany's plans (I'm sure I'm not the only one, but I haven't come across the idea anywhere yet) - how in the world could Euron get his entire fleet to find Yara's without some intel? The only successful battle was when Dany acted somewhat impulsively, leaving no time for Jaime to get his troops out of harm's way. I think we're going to see Varys burn, as Dany promised.
2
Perhaps Yara was the spy. She found Euron at sea and stood down when her ship was boarded. She also happened to be in the war room when Tyrion revealed his grand strategy. Yara could have notified Euron and Jaime via supersonic raven.
I'm still rooting for Sam and Gilly to emerge in the end as the surprise chief exec and first lad of Westeros. Maybe Jon and Dany decide it's time to disengage rulership from bloodlines, which is the root of all evil in GOT, and hand leadership over to the only entirely pure couple in the whole saga. It would be a nice nod to democracy, wouldn't it? And maybe by then the white walkers will have knocked off everyone else who might have ambitions to rule.
2
At the very least Sam should become the Grand Maester. I do think he'd also make a good Hand of the King for Jon. But he's to inquisitive and challenged to not put him in a position that requires higher knowledge.
If Jon and Dany, the former 'entitled' rulers, choose to give their thrown to Sam . . . that's not democracy.
I was thinking the same thing--if they stopped the game of hereditary power and elected their leaders, I'd vote for Sam. Though if Tyrion and Sansa wound up together, they'd make a pretty good team.
Season 7 Was Amazing.
These Moments Are WoW!
http://themagzone.com/best-moments-of-game-of-thrones-season-7/
These Moments Are WoW!
http://themagzone.com/best-moments-of-game-of-thrones-season-7/
1
I am reminded of Billy Idol's "Flesh for Fantasy" and Bob Dylan's "Masters of War."
www.thewaryouknow.com
www.thewaryouknow.com
1
For all the brouhaha about incest. In the book Dany had assumed that she was going to marry her brother when she was told she was marrying Drogo.
The Targaryens always inbred, Her parents were bother/sister. So aunt/nephew (which is once removed) is actually bringing new blood in the line, since I Jon is 1/2 Stark, 1/2 Targaryen.
The Targaryens always inbred, Her parents were bother/sister. So aunt/nephew (which is once removed) is actually bringing new blood in the line, since I Jon is 1/2 Stark, 1/2 Targaryen.
12
Wouldn't it be grand if Theon rescues his sister, eliminates Euron, and takes over the army proved by the Golden company bringing all this to serve Ageon (AKA Jon) and Danny against the zombie army and then against Cersei?
2
Theon has had exactly ONE military success, when he took Winterfell by complete surprise and subterfuge and which he promptly lost. He is a rather terrible commander, and I don't think things are going to suddenly turn around for him just because he's fighting for the cause of good now.
And then maintains the status quo by hooking up with his sister.
and Theon only has enough men tomorrow 2 boats. don't know how he's supposed to rescue yara from Euron's huge fleet. big plot holes coming up next season. it's possible though, should he pull off the rescue, yara will take command of the fleet and bring the golden company to dany.
Re: Littlefinger
Didn't see it coming.
Good job, D&D.
Didn't see it coming.
Good job, D&D.
3
Dear PrairieFlax,
I didn't see it coming either, but upon reflection, that irritated me. Every scene with Arya & Sansa, for several episodes now, led us to believe that they had been fooled by Littlefinger. There was never any hint whatsoever that they had clued into his manipulation. And then suddenly, it's like they knew all along.
Littlefinger didn't get played by them. The audience got played by being shown scene after scene that was totally false. So overall I would mark this as one of the season's big flaws, setting us up for a surprise by showing us the opposite of the situation for a long time.
I didn't see it coming either, but upon reflection, that irritated me. Every scene with Arya & Sansa, for several episodes now, led us to believe that they had been fooled by Littlefinger. There was never any hint whatsoever that they had clued into his manipulation. And then suddenly, it's like they knew all along.
Littlefinger didn't get played by them. The audience got played by being shown scene after scene that was totally false. So overall I would mark this as one of the season's big flaws, setting us up for a surprise by showing us the opposite of the situation for a long time.
1
I feel the opposite. Littlefinger is a sneaky foe with eyes and ears everywhere - had the sisters played it with big winks and secret fist bumps the gig would be up fast. Then we would be complaining about how the show made Littlefinger plot-dumb
1
I think there's evidence that they were plotting together all along, but people didn't look for the kids to be smart enough to plot against Littlefinger, so it looked like it was going the opposite way. And, it starts with Bran's knowledge base. If you look at the scenes--where he gets the knife from Littlefinger and when he gives the knife to Arya--you can see the foundation of their plot. In the first scene, Bran implies he knows what Littlefinger has been up to all along--'Chaos is a ladder.' Then he gives the knife to Arya, which brings up the issue of her list--which was about eliminating the people who have harmed her people the most. From one perspective, handing her the knife is a lot like Bran pointing out that while she was keeping a list, she'd left off the REALLY important one who started it all. That scene is cut off with Sansa's question of 'Who's on this list?'--everyone read that as Sansa being worried SHE was on it, but . . . it can also be seen as her wanting to know if Lf was on it. Then, there's a gap between when the Stark kids have their chat and when they come back in to be seen by Brienne, Podrick, and . . . Littlefinger. But, from then on, watch Arya and Lf. Every scene they are in the same vicinity, she's ALWAYS watching him intently. Then the rest of the conversations are viewed through the eyes of the audience as "Littlefinger is the great manipulator," so they see the kids 'falling for it,' instead of the kids being . . . well . . . NOT.
5
Jon Snow and Tyrion have worked hard to destroy all they claim to support. You have to make an effort to be that dumb. I am not sure why Dani would want either of these two idiots around as her council. They are so bad they must have studied strategy and psychology at Trump University. Maybe it is just the gaping whole of the plot, but what why did they need to involve Cersi in the war with the White Walkers? She has shown over and over she cannot be trusted, just like the fake president Con Don. And Cersi is a fake and illegitimate queen also since she installed herself on the thrown. Anyone who wastes their time with her deserves what they get.
What was the point in going to capture a weight to show to Cersi if they were going to have a battle royale with the Night King and his army? I thought the whole point of involving Cersi was because they needed everyone's help? So why would they venture into the Night King's territory and get a dragon killed.
And finally, to top off their idiocy, and some mint even say treason, Jon Snow proceeds to give Cersi and Qyburn a science lesson on how to destroy the White Walkers. Qyburn is something of a mad scientist himself and they already have lots of wildfire stored beneath the city so all they need is dragon glass. Someone that stupid doesn't deserve to win.
What was the point in going to capture a weight to show to Cersi if they were going to have a battle royale with the Night King and his army? I thought the whole point of involving Cersi was because they needed everyone's help? So why would they venture into the Night King's territory and get a dragon killed.
And finally, to top off their idiocy, and some mint even say treason, Jon Snow proceeds to give Cersi and Qyburn a science lesson on how to destroy the White Walkers. Qyburn is something of a mad scientist himself and they already have lots of wildfire stored beneath the city so all they need is dragon glass. Someone that stupid doesn't deserve to win.
1
Eh, this was a 60% Tyrion plan, most of which stemmed from getting Jon the hell away from dodge to both humor his concerns (based off a note from a crippled kid Tyrion last saw in season 1 mentioning entering bird minds and other crap that they barely believed) and keep Dany a bit more focused (from that whole "grr! my men are stranded on Casterly Rock due to your crap, Tyrion....where the bleep you think you're sneaking off to, dour hottie and fingerless friend????" moment to the Tarly toasting Tyrion's Dany influence is weakening). Either way given how it took Dany losing a dragon to seep through her head that things are effed up (and a dragon was actually possible to lose like that) someone had to let the south know that some crap could go down if the North fell and gave the dead a zombie Arya to deal with.
Wow, there's a lot of great comments and theories here!
I did not see Littlefinger's death coming and fully expected him to stay involved in next season's intrigue through offers of information to Cersei. But now that Arya has killed him, can she take his face? And if so, can she get to Cersei as Littlefinger, and finally strike Cersei off her death list?
I did not see Littlefinger's death coming and fully expected him to stay involved in next season's intrigue through offers of information to Cersei. But now that Arya has killed him, can she take his face? And if so, can she get to Cersei as Littlefinger, and finally strike Cersei off her death list?
6
What I can see from the finale: Bran is trying to put things together...he's the key to defeating the night king. He'll finally figure out he needs to time trip back to stop the children of the forest from creating him. When he intervenes in the past it causes a domino effect in the present and all the wights disappear when the night king is not created in the past. Probably will happen right after the night king kills Jon.. which causes another resurrection of Jon. Cercei is destined to have a dwarf child. The children of Cercei and Danyerus will be pledged to marry and the south will be ruled be Lannister and north by Targaryeon until the children produce an heir then it will be one kingdom. Everyone but Tyrian and Sansa get killed and they raise the babies that will inherit Westeros. Yep. I like that. Just as good as anything else I've read!
5
LOVED IT!!! The whole season!!! The whole series!!!
My only complaint is having to wait for the end of the story when we're so close.
GRRM: Will we ever see book versions of this part of the story?
My only complaint is having to wait for the end of the story when we're so close.
GRRM: Will we ever see book versions of this part of the story?
2
The books are beautifully written, I'd rather GRRM stay loyal to his original storyline, without outside influence.
1
I'm not that interested in Cleaganebowl now that one of them is a zombie. I loved the start of the season and thought the second half rolled down hill. The finale was a good bit better than the episode before it. But they did a whole lot of telling this season and not much showing . . . probably not enough time with the whole truncated season thing. http://www.looktothecookie.org/2017/08/game-of-thrones-dragon-and-wolf.html
Spot on. Particularly on how I feel about Jonerys. Also, Could Cersei's baby be Euron's? Jaime's gone quite a lot... What about theories it could be a dwarf, given Eurons comments about how Ironborn deal with dwarf babies?
3
It looked like Euron was changing allegiances with the way he looked at Dany.
Wonder if Qyburn dissected the walker after?
Do they actually believe Cersei?
I thought Tyrion drank poisoned wine, especially when Cersei didn't drink her glass.
Why didn't Cersei kill Tyrion?
I expected Littlefinger to go out calmly. Blubbering was not a good look.
Is Gentry in East Watch? Or at Castle Black?
Jaime went North alone? Without Bronn? I can't imagine he didn't take a chunk of the army with him.
Oh boy a whole year!
Wonder if Qyburn dissected the walker after?
Do they actually believe Cersei?
I thought Tyrion drank poisoned wine, especially when Cersei didn't drink her glass.
Why didn't Cersei kill Tyrion?
I expected Littlefinger to go out calmly. Blubbering was not a good look.
Is Gentry in East Watch? Or at Castle Black?
Jaime went North alone? Without Bronn? I can't imagine he didn't take a chunk of the army with him.
Oh boy a whole year!
Legendary wino Cersei left the glass alone, which helped Tyrion understand that she was pregnant.
1
All this incest in the show can't be accidental. I think it's G.R.R. Martin's way of commenting on extremes people go to to maintain power, and the pitfalls they lead to.
The Targaryens rightly regarded themselves as special for being able to ride dragons. They practiced incest to keep that "dragon blood" pure. The result, after centuries of inbreeding, is the "Mad King".
Cercei's experience provides another example of that self-defeating practice. If there's one virtue she possesses, it's her fierce love for her children. Yet the very attempt at "keeping it in the family" provided keys for that family's destruction (the monster Joffrey, Jamie pushing Bran off the tower to protect that secret).
Dany talks about "breaking the wheel". If she and Jon/Aegon have children, she'll have to. Both of them are direct descendant of Mad King and his sister-wife. The future does not bode well for their genetic descendant.
Applying it to a broader context, perhaps these lessons applies to nations as well as families?
The Targaryens rightly regarded themselves as special for being able to ride dragons. They practiced incest to keep that "dragon blood" pure. The result, after centuries of inbreeding, is the "Mad King".
Cercei's experience provides another example of that self-defeating practice. If there's one virtue she possesses, it's her fierce love for her children. Yet the very attempt at "keeping it in the family" provided keys for that family's destruction (the monster Joffrey, Jamie pushing Bran off the tower to protect that secret).
Dany talks about "breaking the wheel". If she and Jon/Aegon have children, she'll have to. Both of them are direct descendant of Mad King and his sister-wife. The future does not bode well for their genetic descendant.
Applying it to a broader context, perhaps these lessons applies to nations as well as families?
4
Wow Jon Snow is an idiot, albeit an honest one. Last week he offered his prized sword to a guy he just met, ran off fighting meaningless wights when his Drogon ride was waiting for him, stalling around long enough to give Night King time to harpoon Viserion, after coming up with such a stupid idea to take on the Army of the Dead with 10 people. This week - can't give the right answer to Cersei, can't keep his mouth shut, then believes her when she has lied to everyone about everything.
2
Everyone is getting into the GoT action -- I couldn't help but notice that Pike's Nursery in Marietta GA had "Little Finger" carrots on the vegetable seed rack.
2
They should have temporarily gone with Pyke.
Thanks for the great recap. I share your unease with the Jon and Danaerys hook-up. I love them both but was just recoiling on cellular level when they got together--in spite of the rather breathtaking view. (That's a man bun I can live with.)
Here's my theory: Robert Baratheon claimed that Leanna had been raped and kidnapped. I believe she was--raped (and impregnated) by Robert, kidnapped (rescued) by Rhaegar.
Please, God, let it be true!!!
Here's my theory: Robert Baratheon claimed that Leanna had been raped and kidnapped. I believe she was--raped (and impregnated) by Robert, kidnapped (rescued) by Rhaegar.
Please, God, let it be true!!!
1
A man bun you can live with - best comment ever!
5
The only thing that supports that is that Jon does not have the violet eyes and silver hair that mark a Targaryen, but the dark hair and brown eyes of all of Robert's bastards. But there are Stark genetics involved, so I think the genetics are useful in masking the true progeny of our hero.
Because really the 3-eyed raven says otherwise. And there are other clues about Rhaegar having a third child, Aegon, who would save the world.
Because really the 3-eyed raven says otherwise. And there are other clues about Rhaegar having a third child, Aegon, who would save the world.
3
Sigh. So many people make this so much more important than it is. GoT has been (and continues to be) fun entertainment but nothing more. All this concern about how it's diverged from GRRM's original is silly to me. First off, GRRM is NOT a good writer. He's a great idea man with some pretty amazing visions for telling old stories in new ways. But the actual storytelling is needlessly slow, dense and filled with plenty of clunky cliches as well.
As for what HBO has done to it.... This season was by far the weakest one for all the reasons mentioned in this article. That said, it's a fantasy show and we viewers should remember that when trying to suspend our disbelief. We should also remember that when the terrible swelling music comes up as Dany rides her steed in to the parlay at King's Landing. That music was a horrendous choice. So was the way they "killed?" Jamie earlier this season, for example.
But it's a big-budget, splashy HBO show. It's gonna be cheesy at times, relatively simple at major plot points, and have holes big enough for a truck to drive through. That's what they do. If you want truly artistic television, go back to Deadwood, which was some of the best TV ever made before HBO pulled the plug prematurely. If you want realism, watch The Sopranos and if you want true character-driven magnificence, return to Firefly. But if you're watching a show with queens fighting each other with dragons, be ready for plot holes. That's how these things work.
As for what HBO has done to it.... This season was by far the weakest one for all the reasons mentioned in this article. That said, it's a fantasy show and we viewers should remember that when trying to suspend our disbelief. We should also remember that when the terrible swelling music comes up as Dany rides her steed in to the parlay at King's Landing. That music was a horrendous choice. So was the way they "killed?" Jamie earlier this season, for example.
But it's a big-budget, splashy HBO show. It's gonna be cheesy at times, relatively simple at major plot points, and have holes big enough for a truck to drive through. That's what they do. If you want truly artistic television, go back to Deadwood, which was some of the best TV ever made before HBO pulled the plug prematurely. If you want realism, watch The Sopranos and if you want true character-driven magnificence, return to Firefly. But if you're watching a show with queens fighting each other with dragons, be ready for plot holes. That's how these things work.
3
Thank you, O Great Pontificator!
3
And if you want young, early-baby boom type women, try Rhoda.
Rhoda and Mary - two Ladies and professional creative types who were at the top of their game, who never waged war on each other.
Rhoda and Mary - two Ladies and professional creative types who were at the top of their game, who never waged war on each other.
More questions:
1. Won't Jon and Dany know rather quickly that Cersei was lying? I mean, they could send some crows, or Dany could take a ride on her dragon to check to see if the Lannister army is on its way, or perhaps Jaime could warn them. At that point, seems like it would make sense for Jon and Dany to wipe out the Lannister army, which they could do pretty quickly with the 2 dragons, the Wildlings and the Unsullied -- and with Euron away to Essos. Anyway, seems like a dumb strategy by Cersei.
2. The long game is what counts in GoT. George Martin said if you think it's going to have a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention. Jon's been told by Berric, who has mystical qualities, that he (Jon) will have no children and that his destiny is to "protect". Seems logical that in the end Jon will die protecting his people. Even though he's Aegon Targearyn.
3. It's too pat for Cersei to die and for Dany to take the throne. While I think Cersei will die -- at Jaime's hand after Cersei kills their deformed baby -- Dany will die too, along with her dragon, courtesy of the Night King.
4. The meek shall inherit the earth -- and be turned into new selfish, bloodthirsty rulers. Sam Tarley (now, unwittingly, head of House Tarley) anyone?
5. Ultimately, we're either going to see new (undead) players on the chessboard when the final credits roll -- all with the same failings as the old ones -- or we'll see the Night King.
1. Won't Jon and Dany know rather quickly that Cersei was lying? I mean, they could send some crows, or Dany could take a ride on her dragon to check to see if the Lannister army is on its way, or perhaps Jaime could warn them. At that point, seems like it would make sense for Jon and Dany to wipe out the Lannister army, which they could do pretty quickly with the 2 dragons, the Wildlings and the Unsullied -- and with Euron away to Essos. Anyway, seems like a dumb strategy by Cersei.
2. The long game is what counts in GoT. George Martin said if you think it's going to have a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention. Jon's been told by Berric, who has mystical qualities, that he (Jon) will have no children and that his destiny is to "protect". Seems logical that in the end Jon will die protecting his people. Even though he's Aegon Targearyn.
3. It's too pat for Cersei to die and for Dany to take the throne. While I think Cersei will die -- at Jaime's hand after Cersei kills their deformed baby -- Dany will die too, along with her dragon, courtesy of the Night King.
4. The meek shall inherit the earth -- and be turned into new selfish, bloodthirsty rulers. Sam Tarley (now, unwittingly, head of House Tarley) anyone?
5. Ultimately, we're either going to see new (undead) players on the chessboard when the final credits roll -- all with the same failings as the old ones -- or we'll see the Night King.
The question I haven't seen asked yet is 'Did Ed Stark know?' I seem to recall him retelling the story of Lyanna being abducted and raped by Rhaegar. Did he know that they were in love and married? And why would he claim Jon as his bastard son knowing it would cause problems with his own wife? And if he didn't know, how did Rhaegar somehow get his own back into the Stark family? So many questions!
1
In the books it is made quite clear that Robert would murder the baby Jon / Aegon as he murdered or attempted to with all the other Targaryen heirs. Ned loved his sister before his wife and stayed true to his promise to her to protect and care for the baby – very much in character ;).
5
Him knowing would poke holes in the Eddard Stark is Super Duper 100% Honest and True at All Times legend: he was family first and foremost and to him that baby was his sister's and ignorant of the epic mess he was conceived in. He is definitely Arya's father: Robb died on the myth, Jon makes terrible decisions on the myth, Sansa's too much her mother, Rickon living in the world of that myth got him in a situation to be killed through the myth, Bran's too magical now...Arya has her father's honor and his sense of family over everything - even honor.
I think you sell the cunning of Tyrian somewhat short (pun intended). He says he knows Cersei better than anyone and I believe he is fully aware that she has no intentions of helping with the Great Battle. He has a plan, I am sure.....all will be revealed in two years!
3
As we await to see who the "little brother" (valonqar) of prophecy who kills Cersei, we have to remember the nature of prophecies as vague and "tricky" (George R.R. Martin's description).
Cersei's prophesied demise (only in the text, not in the show) tells of a valonqar AFTER "your tears have drowned you." This is a curious phrase, right? The rest of the prophecy is loaded, so this line cannot be overlooked.
Considering the vague nature of prophecies, neither can this line be taken at face value.
So here's my deciphering of the final part of Maggie the Frog's prophecy:
Cersei dies from "tears of Lys" she attempted to poison someone else with, and the life that is choked by her little brother -- certainly Jaime -- is that demon baby Qyburn put in her womb.
Martin is not a genre-bound fantasy writer. He's a master of horror, too.
Cersei's prophesied demise (only in the text, not in the show) tells of a valonqar AFTER "your tears have drowned you." This is a curious phrase, right? The rest of the prophecy is loaded, so this line cannot be overlooked.
Considering the vague nature of prophecies, neither can this line be taken at face value.
So here's my deciphering of the final part of Maggie the Frog's prophecy:
Cersei dies from "tears of Lys" she attempted to poison someone else with, and the life that is choked by her little brother -- certainly Jaime -- is that demon baby Qyburn put in her womb.
Martin is not a genre-bound fantasy writer. He's a master of horror, too.
2
Cersei's baby should be a dwarf. Fitting.
1
Twin dwarves, boy and girl.
i loved it couldnt sit down. im happy for jon but sad that dany is his aunt. was so happy for Theo hes had it tuff. his talk with jon turn him around. it was all great. loved it. I wonder whos going to kill the white walker dragon? i hope Cersei wises up for the babie sake,
1
I do wish people would get over Jon + Daenerys = incest, for two key reasons. First, in the context of the book such relationships are well-established as being not only acceptable and legal, but positively de rigeur for Targaryens. Second, their relationship wouldn't even be incestuous in every country in our world. Avunculate marriage, that is, marriage between aunt and nephew or uncle and niece, is perfectly legal in several countries - among them Australia, Brazil, Finland, to name just three. Given everything else we accept as part and parcel of GoT, we should all just get over it!
6
Yeah, agreed, but I think the fact that they're related actually sets up more of a line to the throne issue than a moral one.
The overarching theme of this episode in particular but the series as a whole is that the source of all human brutality, war, and suffering is the drive to reproduce oneself and the drive to protect and advance one's children at the expense of all others. Evidence in this episode:
1. Every single person on the "good guys" team has no children. They are either castrated or infertile or they've indicated no interest or no one will have children with them or their children are dead.
2. Cersei explains that the reason she doesn't care about making the "world a better place" like all the childless good guys is because she only cares about the child she is bearing.
3. The mercenary guy explains that the only reason men fight is for access to sex (reproduction). Even if they fight for money it is only to buy sex.
4. Ultimate good character Danaerys explains a hundred times how she can't have children. Watch out for her to turn not so good-hearted if and when she discovers she's pregnant.
5. Every sociopathic bad guy on the show was enabled, encouraged, and protected by their parents (Geoffrey, Ramsay)
6. Most of the good characters are bastards or have dead parents or parents otherwise unable to protect and advance them.
It is obvious that the driving thematic message is that the drive to reproduce is the source of evil and that caring about one's fellow conscious beings without regard to family or blood relationships is the source of good.
1. Every single person on the "good guys" team has no children. They are either castrated or infertile or they've indicated no interest or no one will have children with them or their children are dead.
2. Cersei explains that the reason she doesn't care about making the "world a better place" like all the childless good guys is because she only cares about the child she is bearing.
3. The mercenary guy explains that the only reason men fight is for access to sex (reproduction). Even if they fight for money it is only to buy sex.
4. Ultimate good character Danaerys explains a hundred times how she can't have children. Watch out for her to turn not so good-hearted if and when she discovers she's pregnant.
5. Every sociopathic bad guy on the show was enabled, encouraged, and protected by their parents (Geoffrey, Ramsay)
6. Most of the good characters are bastards or have dead parents or parents otherwise unable to protect and advance them.
It is obvious that the driving thematic message is that the drive to reproduce is the source of evil and that caring about one's fellow conscious beings without regard to family or blood relationships is the source of good.
2
Actually, most of the 'good' characters are probably quite capable of having children. With the exception, maybe, of Bran, there's no reason to assume any of the Starks are incapable of producing children in the future, and I'm including Jon in that list. Dany's assumption that she cannot have children is based on the answer of the blood witch to Dany's query about when she'd be with Drogo again. Considering Drogo was pretty much the walking dead himself at that moment, it's not surprising that the answer implied she'd only be with Drogo and have HIS children when the world spun the opposite direction. As Jon pointed out, the witch was probably not the most reliable of sources for Dany on that matter. Sam, Gilly, Brienne, Gendry, Podrick, even Bronn, the Hound, and Davos could all probably have children or more children. If Tormund survived, he fully plans to have children. For that matter Missandei could arrange to have a child to raise with Grey Worm, though those two would probably adopt. And, let's face it, with the wars that have been fought or will be fought in Westeros rather soon, there will probably be more than enough children around to be adopted.
2
I wouldn't say Dany's the ulimate good character by a long shot. She frequently has to rein in bad instincts, like burning the Tarlys.
According to the books, Targaryen's family has the customs to merry between them. Jon is a targaryen and daenerys is a targaryen too. I think it makes perfect sense (in the books context ) that Jon and daenerys have a relationship. Also, the Targaryens came from a culture completely different. I still don't understand what is the problem with daenerys and Jon together when this is supported by the books.
PS: sorry my English is really bad, but my Spanish is better. ( I just try)
PS: sorry my English is really bad, but my Spanish is better. ( I just try)
5
Do not apologize. You can write in Spanish AND English? Kudos for that.
1
I completely agree that the plot drove the characters this season; in that sense, it was disappointing. I read a piece about how the authors/producers had "mapped out" the final two seasons, and that's what it felt like - we need Jaime and Tyrion to meet, we need to get an ice dragon, we need to have a battle to show what the dragons are capable of, etc. And the horrifically wonderful vulnerability of beloved characters - Rob Stark doesn't get mentioned enough in that regard - is completely absent. It felt much more conventional. The finale was terrific, though, and almost made up for the lackluster season; though I really think Jaime should have gotten it - not because it won't be nice to have him around, but to restore some of the aforementioned vulnerability. Somewhere along the line, the series mutated from cutting-edge, nearly unprecedented quality in both story and production, to a much more conventional series with a core of beloved, and therefore invulnerable characters - more like "The Wizard of Oz." Perhaps in season 8 they'll do what "Firefly" did in "Serenity" - that was devastatingly real. I'm sorry we have to wait so long to find out.
1
Oh, you know, the absence of Rob is an interesting point. Early in the season Dany mentioned losing two brothers, and Jon agreed that he'd lost two brothers, too. The only problem is that, at that moment, he didn't know Bran was alive. So far as he knew at that point, he'd lost THREE brothers--Rob, Bran, and Rickon (not to mention dozens of 'brothers' of the Night's Watch).
2
Sorry - I spelled Cersei incorrectly in my post.
1
There's a lot of irony in Jeremy's piece. He writes that the story is moving from local matters (murderous tribalism) to global matters (the Night King), yet spends most of the piece on the future of local matters: Jon and Dany's incestuous relationship, and further efforts by Cersei to defeat the other tribes.
At this point, Game of Thrones reminds me of another fantasy series: Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Seasons 1-5 of Buffy were wonderfully written. After season 5, the writers ran out of ideas, and the last two seasons were forgettable (to put it charitably).
Without GRRM's ideas, the showrunners are lost. They continue to make episodes that are visually spectacular and emotionally gratifying, but that's it. The stories have become dull, the writing has become lazy, and the actors have not been allowed to showcase their talents.
So I await season 8 with reduced expectations. If Uncle Benjen comes to the rescue again, or if raven technology advances to hypersonic speeds, or if undead Viserion who can't breath (wights don't breath, right?) continues breathing blue radiation, I'll just sigh, enjoy the scenery and visual effects, and hope for a surprise or two.
At this point, Game of Thrones reminds me of another fantasy series: Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Seasons 1-5 of Buffy were wonderfully written. After season 5, the writers ran out of ideas, and the last two seasons were forgettable (to put it charitably).
Without GRRM's ideas, the showrunners are lost. They continue to make episodes that are visually spectacular and emotionally gratifying, but that's it. The stories have become dull, the writing has become lazy, and the actors have not been allowed to showcase their talents.
So I await season 8 with reduced expectations. If Uncle Benjen comes to the rescue again, or if raven technology advances to hypersonic speeds, or if undead Viserion who can't breath (wights don't breath, right?) continues breathing blue radiation, I'll just sigh, enjoy the scenery and visual effects, and hope for a surprise or two.
1
The last scene of zombie-dragon destroying the wall and the Knights Watch falling to their deaths gave me truly terrifying and eerie 9/11 flashbacks.
2
Yes, Rachel from the big smoke, well done, but overly condensed came bear plot points as contrived. And the diminishment of others. No more Varys plot. I suspect it will come back. As will Melisandre.
Jaime is the character to watch now. Will the the Night King, with an Air Force, attack Kings Landing, or Euron's Navy?
Jaime is the character to watch now. Will the the Night King, with an Air Force, attack Kings Landing, or Euron's Navy?
When Jon arrived at Dragonstone to see Dany Varys and Melisandre were on a cliff and the foretelling for both characters came in that scene when Melissandre says that both she and Varys are destined to die in Westeros, despite the fact that she was leaving Westeros then. She likely saw things in the fire. If we choose to believe her failed visions again.
My sad prediction for the future - the vast battle against the Night King and the white walkers will have both Dany and Jon riding dragons but Jon will not survive. Dany will be pregnant and with Tyrion being a sort of witness to their union there should be no doubt who the father of her baby is.
There has been some really obvious foreshadowing about this and other issues. Remember when Tormund made a remark to Jon about how many people would have been saved if Mance had just bent the knee? In the next episode, Jon bent the knee.
In that same trip, Beric and Jon were musing about why they might have been saved to live again and someone said that they might have been saved simply to come back and kill the Night King. Hmmmm, maybe that is what they will do and they will die in the process. After all Jon has been shown lately to act with great bravery and also stupidity in battle, charging on and on when retreat is in order. In doing so, he could take out the Night King and the zombie dragon but is unlikely to survive.
And of course, he planted the doubt about Dany's barrenness in this last episode too, although I have to say I find Tyrion's idea about discussing various methods of succession a more interesting one.
There has been some really obvious foreshadowing about this and other issues. Remember when Tormund made a remark to Jon about how many people would have been saved if Mance had just bent the knee? In the next episode, Jon bent the knee.
In that same trip, Beric and Jon were musing about why they might have been saved to live again and someone said that they might have been saved simply to come back and kill the Night King. Hmmmm, maybe that is what they will do and they will die in the process. After all Jon has been shown lately to act with great bravery and also stupidity in battle, charging on and on when retreat is in order. In doing so, he could take out the Night King and the zombie dragon but is unlikely to survive.
And of course, he planted the doubt about Dany's barrenness in this last episode too, although I have to say I find Tyrion's idea about discussing various methods of succession a more interesting one.
Out of left field here, which is where GRRM's storylines often originate:
1. Jaime kills Cersei after she betrays him once more, on a deeper level even than she did in this episode--perhaps by killing Tryrion is a particularly heinous manner?
2. Dany dies trying to reclaim Viserion, because the dragons were her family after the loss of her husband and son.
3. Jon dies in some spectacularly unselfish manner because he's way overdue.
4. Jaime marries Brienne of Tarth, who perhaps has some Targyrean blood (she does have the signature hair color and certain imperiousness) and they rule together.
1. Jaime kills Cersei after she betrays him once more, on a deeper level even than she did in this episode--perhaps by killing Tryrion is a particularly heinous manner?
2. Dany dies trying to reclaim Viserion, because the dragons were her family after the loss of her husband and son.
3. Jon dies in some spectacularly unselfish manner because he's way overdue.
4. Jaime marries Brienne of Tarth, who perhaps has some Targyrean blood (she does have the signature hair color and certain imperiousness) and they rule together.
Very happy for the surprise of the Stark girl's undoing of Littlefinger at his own game. Best part of the very enjoyable episode!!
4
It's natural to pick up the pace as a story reaches its denouement, but I can't help but thinking that two full-length rather than half-length seasons would have avoided the rushed action about which everyone has been complaining.
The show has definitely suffered from having moved beyond the books, since while Martin conveyed the basic plot points, he couldn't convey the finer points of his storytelling and character development. As you point out, too many false deaths, etc. The show has fallen back on TV clichés.
I'm glad to see that someone else noticed the improbably conversion of Tyrion, who's masterful strategic thinking saved King's Landing and stood in such contrast to Cersei's arrogant stupidity, into an error-prone buffoon. I thought his scene outside the bedroom suggested jealousy, though like you, I wasn't entirely certain. As he's been in love with Danaerys all along and is out of the running because of his size (note Cersei's reference to his whores). But then, I think he'll have a happy ending when Sansa, having grown through hard experience beyond her earlier shallowness and social climbing, recognizes his true worth. I do wish he'd gotten a dragon, but of course that's for Jon now.
I do wonder whether Jon or Danaerys will survive the show. They will presumably tag team the dead dragon, but will both survive? Their night together suggests that Danaerys will get pregnant and be the one to live. And presumably, the remaining dragons are boy and girl as well.
The show has definitely suffered from having moved beyond the books, since while Martin conveyed the basic plot points, he couldn't convey the finer points of his storytelling and character development. As you point out, too many false deaths, etc. The show has fallen back on TV clichés.
I'm glad to see that someone else noticed the improbably conversion of Tyrion, who's masterful strategic thinking saved King's Landing and stood in such contrast to Cersei's arrogant stupidity, into an error-prone buffoon. I thought his scene outside the bedroom suggested jealousy, though like you, I wasn't entirely certain. As he's been in love with Danaerys all along and is out of the running because of his size (note Cersei's reference to his whores). But then, I think he'll have a happy ending when Sansa, having grown through hard experience beyond her earlier shallowness and social climbing, recognizes his true worth. I do wish he'd gotten a dragon, but of course that's for Jon now.
I do wonder whether Jon or Danaerys will survive the show. They will presumably tag team the dead dragon, but will both survive? Their night together suggests that Danaerys will get pregnant and be the one to live. And presumably, the remaining dragons are boy and girl as well.
4
Dragon incest !
1
Yes, it did strike me suddenly after Viserion died - the Dragons will turn out to be Asexual
Season 7 was amazing. Very few are ever satisfied with ending a story we are invested in. Well done!
7
I fell in love with GOT because of the plots and subplots. Dialogue and intrigue are what set it apart from all other TV. It showed narrative could be successful and boy, was it.
I'm not an action movie fan so season 7 disappointed me a bit. I agree tho, that all the plots are being boiled down to a handful so narrative is harder to maintain. Even if the finale is more action than mystery, it's still been a great ride.
I'm not an action movie fan so season 7 disappointed me a bit. I agree tho, that all the plots are being boiled down to a handful so narrative is harder to maintain. Even if the finale is more action than mystery, it's still been a great ride.
11
I totally agree with you Bill. It is the plots, subplots, and psychological intrigue that made Game of Thrones so very interesting and enticing (I confess, I often times simply fast forwarding through "stupid fight scenes" or excessive "chase scenes" in many movies and shows).
1
This season largely demonstrates how HBO is essentially only aiming for "summer's largest blockbuster" - and just like every Hollywood blockbuster these days, they've managed to split it up into 2 parts that will occupy 2 years! Good job, HBO. This season, with all its exorbitant CGI, cliffhanger deaths that nearly immediately reveal the outrageous survival of a key character, and of course, the romance between the top male and female character feels like nothing more than another superhero movie to me... Gorgeous to watch first-time around perhaps, but lacking the depth for a rewatch later.
6
We want the story to be satisfying, right? Some things should come to pass that make good story sense. This was always a kind of heroic epic.
After all the surprising, game-changing deaths, the fact that this season ended with conventionally foreseeable events was not entirely predictable.
So I'm guessing that we still don't know what we think we know.
After all the surprising, game-changing deaths, the fact that this season ended with conventionally foreseeable events was not entirely predictable.
So I'm guessing that we still don't know what we think we know.
1
Daenarys and Jon are very similar. Both are serial monogamists who live for drama.
1
Taylor Swift should hop in for a threesome, then
1
Is our house the only one who felt that this entire season was FULL of time wasters? So many pregnant pauses in conversations, so many times that a conversation was basically 2 characters saying the same thing over and over using different words? I know as a house full of GoT fans, we all felt that as the season went on, it did get a little better, but still felt that so much more could have been accomplished and not so forced as it felt like. It seems as though the last 15 minutes of every episode accomplished more than the first 45 minutes. All of the "reveals" were things that fan sites had all supposed for years and that was a first. Normally, fan sites will take a random guess and it is hit or miss. It is almost as though the show's writers were reading the same fan sites and using that material OR leaking it. Either way, I felt robbed this season and missed the previous seasons of exciting banter between characters. Our house reflects on and everyone has their FAVORITE speeches or dialogues given by various characters in seasons past and this season offered us very little in the way of favorite anything. It was as if the scenes were all played by bad actors using bad scripts. The season felt very disjointed and the time skips were RAMPANT and obvious this year compared to previous seasons.
4
A lot of that stems from the fact everything is now a product if the show's writers, not Martin. Jon will probably die, Dany will of course be pregnant and could quite possibly go on to rule solo. Even if Jon doesn't die, it's doubtful he wants to be head cheese. What a lot of people overlook is the idea that the night king could succeed in turning the other two dragons into zombies and he could end up on the thrown with Cersie where they could rule until winter's end. Hopefully she has a dwarf baby, if she's even really pregnant. It would be her worst nightmare and serve her right. She's already the ice queen. I doubt she'd have a problem with being the night queen, as long as she got to stay in power. She's already stated clearly she doesn't care about changing the world or about the people in it. It's all about her and hers. Let them eat cake, or in this case sno cones. Anyways, if Martin were writing it it could well happen. He's not one for happy endings and has amply demonstrated a real zeal for killing people off. You can't get too attached to characters on this show because you know they ultimately won't last.
I think Bran and Sam will tell Jon in the first episode next season of his parentage and claim to the Iron Throne. But I think Jon will ask them to keep it a secret so that he can still rule the North and lead the battle against the White Walkers and also our of respect and love for Dany to maintain her claim to the Throne. Of course the truth will out one day (maybe after the White Walkers are defeated and its time to fight Cersei for the Iron Throne) and it will greatly complicate matters, especially if Jon and Danys are still lovers (though he may stop that when he learns of his parentage and use the excuse "Honey, we have a war to fight, lovemaking can come later" to hold Dany off). The perfect happy ending is for them to rule together as King and Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, married or not.
7
I sure hope the finale doesn't get "Lost".
10
There was no super sonic raven in S7E6 - they have the three eyed raven watching the wight army - if he didn't cotton to what was going on before they sent Gendry on his way, he could have popped into someone else's skin to communicate the message. Gendry's relevance was sending Coldhand (uncle Ben).
2
I wonder if someone should just write the book version of GoT so we don't have to wait for Martin to finish the series. I love how emotional and detailed the novels are, but maybe we should just have the TV show and call it good. This season felt so fast and the final season probably will too.
1
"But as a story that began with crimes committed to conceal incest"
No, the crime was committed to conceal the queen cheating on the king, regardless of incest.
No, the crime was committed to conceal the queen cheating on the king, regardless of incest.
7
And the catspaw that tried to kill Bran was unrelated to the incest. He was sent by Joffrey who did not know about the incest.
1
When I saw Viserion get harpooned and crash into the frozen lake on his wing taking the full impact, I thought to myself I'm sure he'll be flying around in the season finale. His brother was almost brought down by a metal spear in his wing.
1
"The incest is my raven, I guess." I don't think I'll ever read that sentence again, so enjoying it currently.
11
A little dismayed at the demise of Littlefinger. I was hoping for more of his repartee with Varys that was so enjoyable in the first few seasons.
With the offspring of Jon and Dany yield a deadish, slightly moronic baby dragon? Will we see a preggo catfight between Cersei and Dany next year for Incestuous Mom of the Year?
Was Bran's vision of the Eastwatch destruction something in the near future or was he watching the live version? If the former, please send one of those magically supersonic ravens to Eastwatch, warning Tormund of the coming doom or his giant babies with Brienne will be nevermore.
I predict that, in the battle of the Cleganes, the Mountain wins and becomes enamored with zombie Viserion. That is if Viserion wins her battle against Drogon.
Finally, what do zombies do in their down time?
With the offspring of Jon and Dany yield a deadish, slightly moronic baby dragon? Will we see a preggo catfight between Cersei and Dany next year for Incestuous Mom of the Year?
Was Bran's vision of the Eastwatch destruction something in the near future or was he watching the live version? If the former, please send one of those magically supersonic ravens to Eastwatch, warning Tormund of the coming doom or his giant babies with Brienne will be nevermore.
I predict that, in the battle of the Cleganes, the Mountain wins and becomes enamored with zombie Viserion. That is if Viserion wins her battle against Drogon.
Finally, what do zombies do in their down time?
2
It was time. Well overdue to get rid of Littlefinger.
1
I think that "the look" Tyrion gave at the end was to tell us he had turned on Dany. He betrayed Danerys by making some sort of deal with Cercei. We did not hear all of that conversation, and THIS is the third betrayal - by blood - family ties and Tyrion's wish to be part of the Lannister family after being treated horribly all his life by them (except for Jaime). Why else would he be following Jon/Raegar and Dany around - sneaking and peeking around? He's reporting to Cercei now. I do not agree with the theories that the look was jealousy - not from being in love with Dany anyway - but MAYBE because he knows he has no place with Dany now. He knew it when he went to the meeting; he played both sides there - and cast his lot with Cercei as hard as that is to believe. We shall see.
9
Why is trying to find a solution, a way through the mess, a Betrayal ?
How is that "reporting to Cersei" ?
How is that "reporting to Cersei" ?
1
I don't think he is planning to turn on Danny but rather happy that Jon and Danny having sex that there will be a hire if something happens to Dany
Thanks Mr Egner for a great seven weeks of much needed post-Sunday GOT banter. The complaints of the season for me are like many others: the time/distance implausibilities, the good-guy incest we're supposed to root for all of a sudden, fast-tracked and forgotten plots (Greyworm was blockaded at Casterly Rock, how did he manage to get to KL for that ridiculous summit?), etc. But, when the source material ran out we were certain to run into areas untouched by GRRM's genius. Great season nonetheless. See you next year.
5
Like Dany just fine. Love Jon Snow. That said, I find their love affair creepy. I've read about sexual tension - didn't see it - didn't feel it....and do not believe in it.
11
Agreed. No chemistry no smolder. I find Dany's character rather flat, deadpan.
1
Just kind of an out there thought. Since Cersei is already pregnant and Dany will be soon, what if their children get together and end up being the saviors of all Westros. Sequel Maybe?
1
I, for one, don't believe she IS pregnant. Way too much clutching of the abdomen for anyone there to see. It's just a show for her.
I hate Dany and Jon together, mostly because I can't stand Jon Snow. I know he is the titular hero of the show, but boy, I have trouble believing that. Mostly he seems too weak for someone like her. It's funny, the incest between Cersei and Jamie never bohered me, but Jon and Dany -- gross!
5
You don't like Jon Snow?!!
He's beautiful...perhaps not a macho man, but some of us women love sensitive, kind and honorable men. I think his relationship with Dany with develop into something that moves us.
He's beautiful...perhaps not a macho man, but some of us women love sensitive, kind and honorable men. I think his relationship with Dany with develop into something that moves us.
4
NYT seems to forget that incest is a Targaryen thing, even before it was a Lanister thing.
10
Rhaegar looks just like Viserys. Confusing. Couldn't they have changed the hair?
8
Rhaegar and Viserys are said to look very like each other in the books, so much that when Dany sees Rhaegar in one of her visions in the House of the Undying she thinks at first that he's Viserys—I assume that's the reason for the hair. But I agree, there's no reason that the two had to wear their hair the same way and it would have been nice to have a little more distinction between them.
7
How old was Rhaegar when he was killed? Looks the same as he did when Jon Snow was born and how old is he now? Dont seem to add up.
Maybe Viserys chose to look like his older brother because he admired him.
1
It is ironic to realize that the white walkers were not even a problem for Westeros until John Snow comes into play.
He came up with the stupid idea to arrest a dead guy, which lead to him (and the other members of the crew) being trapped in that lake, which lead him to call Daenarys for help, which finally lead a dragon being transformed to a white walker himself, which lead to the Wall being torn down by that dragon.
If it wasn't for JS, the Others would be limited to the land beyond the Wall. They did not have the power to overcome the Wall.
That probably explains why they were so slow in moving south before they catch that dragon; it's because they didn't have anything to do. They were stuck in there and just waiting for an opportunity, a tool for breaking the Wall.
And JS unwittingly but stupidly offered them that opportunity and that tool.
So, we should not expect the Others moving so slowly in the final season.
He came up with the stupid idea to arrest a dead guy, which lead to him (and the other members of the crew) being trapped in that lake, which lead him to call Daenarys for help, which finally lead a dragon being transformed to a white walker himself, which lead to the Wall being torn down by that dragon.
If it wasn't for JS, the Others would be limited to the land beyond the Wall. They did not have the power to overcome the Wall.
That probably explains why they were so slow in moving south before they catch that dragon; it's because they didn't have anything to do. They were stuck in there and just waiting for an opportunity, a tool for breaking the Wall.
And JS unwittingly but stupidly offered them that opportunity and that tool.
So, we should not expect the Others moving so slowly in the final season.
3
Actually, according to the books (and the wacky alchemist who made wildfire and talked to Tyrion way back when), magic--powerful magic--returned slowly to the realms after the dragons returned. If you'll recall, the old alchemist asked if there were any dragons around because they'd followed the formula for decades, but the wildfire had only become truly powerful and 'volatile' recently--after Dany and the dragons. So . . . really it's Dany's fault for believing in herself and the dragons--that's when the Night King got enough power to create his army.
6
Events were already in play before Jon Snow - as early as Osha being introduced - people were making journeys to escape the coming events of this approaching Winter. The white walkers had already made contact and attacked people living in that area and forced the Nights Watch to take action.
It was not Jon Snow's plan to capture a wight - that was Tyrion's plan and agreed to by all those at that war council meeting. The Three-Eyed Raven and the Children of the Forest had already started making contact with Bran and setting their plans to fight against the Night King.
Jon Snow would not even be alive if Melinsandre and Davos had not made the effort to bring him back to life.
And for all the blame of the ill conceived "capture a white walker" plan - Dany had little choice but to try and rescue them. And harsh and heart breaking as Tyrion's initial advice that she not rush to their rescue and that her death would finish it all for all of them - Dany made the choice for the rescue.
That scene with Tyrion telling her not to rush off and face a possible death and loss for their dream of building a better world was a big turning point and it's one of the reasons that Tyrion looks so disturb when he sees Jon enter her cabin.
Ever since Olenna tells Dany to not be a sheep but to be a dragon the Tyrion-Dany relationship has transforming.
It was not Jon Snow's plan to capture a wight - that was Tyrion's plan and agreed to by all those at that war council meeting. The Three-Eyed Raven and the Children of the Forest had already started making contact with Bran and setting their plans to fight against the Night King.
Jon Snow would not even be alive if Melinsandre and Davos had not made the effort to bring him back to life.
And for all the blame of the ill conceived "capture a white walker" plan - Dany had little choice but to try and rescue them. And harsh and heart breaking as Tyrion's initial advice that she not rush to their rescue and that her death would finish it all for all of them - Dany made the choice for the rescue.
That scene with Tyrion telling her not to rush off and face a possible death and loss for their dream of building a better world was a big turning point and it's one of the reasons that Tyrion looks so disturb when he sees Jon enter her cabin.
Ever since Olenna tells Dany to not be a sheep but to be a dragon the Tyrion-Dany relationship has transforming.
1
I thought it was Tyrions idea? hmm ill have to rewatch that part. Seemed dumb nontheless
1
I loved the books and the episodes in which the series actually followed them. As to this season's finale, the wite dragon scene at the end was spectacular and left me speechless.
I also enjoyed Dani's arrival on a dragon. No one ignores a roaring dragon. Heh.
I cheered Littlefinger's death and laughed at how blasé Arya was in slitting his throat.
Should Dani and Jon have coupled? The sexual tension between them was way more exciting than the actual act IMO.
I also enjoyed Dani's arrival on a dragon. No one ignores a roaring dragon. Heh.
I cheered Littlefinger's death and laughed at how blasé Arya was in slitting his throat.
Should Dani and Jon have coupled? The sexual tension between them was way more exciting than the actual act IMO.
8
Random thoughts: Everyone please remember that this is a science fiction/fantasy show and stop trying to apply real time logic to it. GOT is not a documentary.
Hooray for Sansa, Arya and Bran - Littlefinger finally got what he deserved. Sansa's time at Kingslanding paid off. She has become an able player.
I said that Sam and Gilly were headed for Winterfell and I was right - interesting that he and Bran were the ones to finally confirm Jon Snow's real parentage. Going back and forth between the two of them and Jon and Dany's intimate moments made for interesting viewing.
As for Tyrion I believe that he is in love with Dany as well. It is an unrequited love just like Jorah's love for Dany.
I am curious to see how Jon and Dany handle the news of their common gene pool.
As I said before I doubt that Sam will be angry with Dany for killing his father who was nothing but mean to him. Will he go back to live with his widowed mother and run the castle?
While Jaime may still love Cersei and be addicted to their relationship he can no longer ignore what an evil woman she is. This has been coming for a while but Jaime has been in denial about her true character.
Finally a zombie dragon that spews electric blue fire almost like a laser beam with the Night King riding him. Wow. Did anyone at Eastwatch survive the attack?
Hooray for Sansa, Arya and Bran - Littlefinger finally got what he deserved. Sansa's time at Kingslanding paid off. She has become an able player.
I said that Sam and Gilly were headed for Winterfell and I was right - interesting that he and Bran were the ones to finally confirm Jon Snow's real parentage. Going back and forth between the two of them and Jon and Dany's intimate moments made for interesting viewing.
As for Tyrion I believe that he is in love with Dany as well. It is an unrequited love just like Jorah's love for Dany.
I am curious to see how Jon and Dany handle the news of their common gene pool.
As I said before I doubt that Sam will be angry with Dany for killing his father who was nothing but mean to him. Will he go back to live with his widowed mother and run the castle?
While Jaime may still love Cersei and be addicted to their relationship he can no longer ignore what an evil woman she is. This has been coming for a while but Jaime has been in denial about her true character.
Finally a zombie dragon that spews electric blue fire almost like a laser beam with the Night King riding him. Wow. Did anyone at Eastwatch survive the attack?
10
A) There is a decided difference in science fiction (which must be based on the facts as understood at the time of writing) and fantasy.
B) Good fantasy is only really good if it is honest and true to its own settings and premises. The problem with GoT this season is that it has ignored some of the core premises of the setting, which include intending to present a more 'realistic' fantasy world than those in things like Harry Potter and especially in trying to give modern audiences a 'feel' for how restrictive medieval worlds were in terms of travel, knowledge, and resources compared to the modern world. By ignoring those premises by playing fast and loose with time and reasoning, we've gotten some spectacular CGI scenes, but . . . we've lost part of what made the story GoT.
B) Good fantasy is only really good if it is honest and true to its own settings and premises. The problem with GoT this season is that it has ignored some of the core premises of the setting, which include intending to present a more 'realistic' fantasy world than those in things like Harry Potter and especially in trying to give modern audiences a 'feel' for how restrictive medieval worlds were in terms of travel, knowledge, and resources compared to the modern world. By ignoring those premises by playing fast and loose with time and reasoning, we've gotten some spectacular CGI scenes, but . . . we've lost part of what made the story GoT.
14
Finally after three seasons (4, 5, and 6) of slowly plodding along, we see some real (and really juicy) plot movement.
My only wonder is this . . . how will Cersei meet her end!? Eaten by a dragon, at the hands of (one of) her brother(s), or will it by Arya dealing the final blow?! It has to be a deserved ending~!!!
My only wonder is this . . . how will Cersei meet her end!? Eaten by a dragon, at the hands of (one of) her brother(s), or will it by Arya dealing the final blow?! It has to be a deserved ending~!!!
7
With the hands of the 'little brother' around her throat.
2
strictly, 'little sibling' (not gender specific, though Cersei leaps to the male conclusion too) and it is 'neck' not 'throat' (which might signify the 'Neck' region between North and South Westeros)
1
As a Vermonter familiar with the snow, and more importantly, ice, I can tell you that ice can be so cold that it's hot and burns. Anyone who has gotten their finger stuck to a frosty flagpole can attest. I believe the zombie dragon is breathing ice but it's so hot that it acts like fire and can melt the wall and won't kill the white walkers.
6
Small feminist and bloodlust thoughts:
Feminism:
1. Ned has been such a big focus-- what about Catelyn?? She didn't even get a place in the crypt! Why don't her daughters ever reflect on her guidance?
2. Sam, the nicest character in the entire darn series, took credit for Gilly's idea.
3. Dany has been held to a different standard for mercy and power (Tarlys
Feminism:
1. Ned has been such a big focus-- what about Catelyn?? She didn't even get a place in the crypt! Why don't her daughters ever reflect on her guidance?
2. Sam, the nicest character in the entire darn series, took credit for Gilly's idea.
3. Dany has been held to a different standard for mercy and power (Tarlys
7
1. Agreed.
2. Agreed.
3. How is she being held to a different standard? She's being held to the same standard as characters like Joffrey and Ramsay by the audience who did not approve of randomly torturing and killing people when there were clearly other options. Within the story, she's being held to same standards as other rulers like . . . Cersei and Olenna, who were willing to use murder to accomplish their goals. And, if she appears to be held to a different standard, isn't that because the character in story has repeatedly purported HERSELF to be 'different' than the rest. You can't have it both ways--she can't say she wants to be different, but use the same sort of tactics--fear, intimidation, and death--that the others have always used.
2. Agreed.
3. How is she being held to a different standard? She's being held to the same standard as characters like Joffrey and Ramsay by the audience who did not approve of randomly torturing and killing people when there were clearly other options. Within the story, she's being held to same standards as other rulers like . . . Cersei and Olenna, who were willing to use murder to accomplish their goals. And, if she appears to be held to a different standard, isn't that because the character in story has repeatedly purported HERSELF to be 'different' than the rest. You can't have it both ways--she can't say she wants to be different, but use the same sort of tactics--fear, intimidation, and death--that the others have always used.
2
a contrast view - the reason for Ned Stark being the primary reference for the sisters is because from the story telling perspective their father is the "coming full circle" focal point as well as the giver of the Life Lesson for their reunion and destruction of the enemy who would destroy them.
As for Catelyn not being in the family crypt - I don't recall any evidence that she is not there. Same for Sam taking credit for Gilly's accidental discovery - at some point they would have had to talk about what she read in the journal/diary.
The death of the Tarly's - that is a question of perspective for the viewers did she do the right thing and what needed to be done? I think she did- the point about war is that it is horror and death and destruction and that's why it is the ultimate failure of humanity.
But regarding Dany and Cersei and their moral choices and contrast - there is a huge difference between Dany and a Cersei who can say that some of her subjects might be better off as that dead creature. Both women are strong and can be ruthless but for Cersei it goes beyond the needs of war.
As for Catelyn not being in the family crypt - I don't recall any evidence that she is not there. Same for Sam taking credit for Gilly's accidental discovery - at some point they would have had to talk about what she read in the journal/diary.
The death of the Tarly's - that is a question of perspective for the viewers did she do the right thing and what needed to be done? I think she did- the point about war is that it is horror and death and destruction and that's why it is the ultimate failure of humanity.
But regarding Dany and Cersei and their moral choices and contrast - there is a huge difference between Dany and a Cersei who can say that some of her subjects might be better off as that dead creature. Both women are strong and can be ruthless but for Cersei it goes beyond the needs of war.
1
Granted, Sam did not walk in and say "Here's an interesting fact, uncovered by my Wilding girlfriend ..."
But by telling someone the information, passing on what he learned, is not taking credit. So many of you here talk about believability. Would it really have been believable to suddenly turn Gilly into a major character because "We need more women on the show" ? And "She needs to say the line and have equal standing" Yes, we do face these issue in our world. But this is not our world & she was never a major character in that world.
Does politics, race & PC gender issues really have to be forced into every last aspect of every day ? Yes, your answer is already apparent.
But by telling someone the information, passing on what he learned, is not taking credit. So many of you here talk about believability. Would it really have been believable to suddenly turn Gilly into a major character because "We need more women on the show" ? And "She needs to say the line and have equal standing" Yes, we do face these issue in our world. But this is not our world & she was never a major character in that world.
Does politics, race & PC gender issues really have to be forced into every last aspect of every day ? Yes, your answer is already apparent.
This was a reasonably strong end to what has been a dreadfully bad and weak season. The writing generally has been, for lack of a better description, dreadfully incompetent. It was so bad I was strongly considering cancelling my HBO Now subscription if the finale wasn't significantly better than 5 of the 6 previous episodes. It's been a season of thin episodes, like eating a sweet but unsatisfying confection (E's 1-3) 2 insultingly bad and, dare I say it? idiotic episodes (E's 5 & 6) and only one solid, strong and well-written episode, #4.
The finale was much stronger but still is full of weak writing. Despite that, I actually enjoyed the episode which is more than I can say about 5&6.
HBO has really blown it by cutting back to 7 episodes for a "season". It's a travesty and a cheat to loyal viewers of the last 7 years. I guess there's a reason very few successful TV shows go beyond Season 7: The writing inspiration dries up and it's rapidly into near-full drought conditions on what has be the most popular show in many, many years.
The finale was much stronger but still is full of weak writing. Despite that, I actually enjoyed the episode which is more than I can say about 5&6.
HBO has really blown it by cutting back to 7 episodes for a "season". It's a travesty and a cheat to loyal viewers of the last 7 years. I guess there's a reason very few successful TV shows go beyond Season 7: The writing inspiration dries up and it's rapidly into near-full drought conditions on what has be the most popular show in many, many years.
8
GRRM is no longer writing for the show, hence the poor writing quality.
"HBO has really blown it by cutting back to 7 episodes for a "season". It's a travesty and a cheat to loyal viewers of the last 7 years"
Absolutely right. The bottom line, craven decision taken by HBO out of pure Greed and disrespect for the loyal viewers. Split the last season into 2 so-called "Seasons" - sure. That was a deliberate decision because they literally Got Nothing in their pipeline that comes close to filling the gap left by GOT. So why not stretch out those HBO subscriptions as LONG as possible. Time to cancel & re -up HBO in 2019, or even heaven forbid 2020, when it finally returns.
I am wondering if GRRM will have even the next book out by then, let alone have a conclusion.
Absolutely right. The bottom line, craven decision taken by HBO out of pure Greed and disrespect for the loyal viewers. Split the last season into 2 so-called "Seasons" - sure. That was a deliberate decision because they literally Got Nothing in their pipeline that comes close to filling the gap left by GOT. So why not stretch out those HBO subscriptions as LONG as possible. Time to cancel & re -up HBO in 2019, or even heaven forbid 2020, when it finally returns.
I am wondering if GRRM will have even the next book out by then, let alone have a conclusion.
I am so happy about Jonerys! At last! At this point they have no idea of the incest so they can enjoy each other, and next season we can suffer with them as they withdraw from this relationship. The season was too short, of course. I'm already grieving the shows' end, but am confident in it being satisfying.
2
The word "rooting' has some vernacular overtones in other parts of the English-speaking world that it does not have in the United States. In this case, its use is particularly unfortunate.
3
So in the next season, will Arya make use of Littlefinger's face? And if so, to what end? Who on her dwindling hit list might consider Littlefinger an ally?
27
Cersei would take a meeting with him.
6
Jaime
1
Yes! Cersei!
1
Jon had no problem lying to Ygritte about his true loyalty, but he can't lie to Cersei in order to save humanity? I find his relationship with Dani a bit too fanfictionish and incest is apparently not accepted in this world since Jamie and Cersei hide their relationship. I enjoyed this season but the plot is not as extraordinary as when the show was following the books.
16
The whole Targaryen family was incestuous. Dany, Rhaegar and Viserys were the children of the Mad King and his sister/wife. Their parents and grandparents were all incestuous too. It was the Targaryen way of keeping their "dragon blood" pure. That's why Rhaegar's marriages to Elia and Lyanna were so controversial (but he had no choice as his sister Dany wouldn't be born before his death).
5
The difference is that in lying to Ygritte, he was keeping his oath to the Night's Watch. In both cases, he is keeping his word and doing the honorable thing even when it comes with a price like hurting the woman he loves or losing a political alliance.
1
Well, #1, they are supposed to be breaking the wheel, but also, his marriage to a Martell wasn't controversal, so....
Can someone explain to me what the opening scene with the Unsullied and Dothraki at the castle had to do with the rest of the show? It didn't seem to fit the timeline or any other part of the episode's narrative. In the very next scene, we see Jamie at King's Landing making no reference to the army that was seemingly going to overrun the castle.
8
They were there to protect Dany, Jon and the rest of the bunch in case Cersei started a war.
4
Just to heighten the amount of distrust between the two parties. Dany shows up in full force. Bron and Jaime are fully deploying forces and oil up on the walls to hold the fort. You still get a weird feeling that once the group walks in to that arena that archers are hiding somewhere up top, ready to shoot like the red wedding.
3
And what happened to the Lannister army when Jaimie left? Was he leaving alone or did they all go ahead of him? He said he was holding true to his word, but when he left at the end of his scene with the snowflakes falling, he left alone. So is he planning on just hooking up with Jonerys down the road and fighting or what?
5
I loved the final episode of season 7 and can't wait for the final season. Not everyone will agree with me, as I've read several critics that didn't really like this episode, or even this season. However, I thought the dialogue was great, it moved the story forward. I get bored with action scenes that are there for eye candy and serve little other purpose. In this season, that was not the case, the action moved the story forward, and in some cases, it was even being narrated as it happened. After seven seasons, it was fun to watch all these major characters come together. I was hoping for Clegane Bowl, but I loved how the Hound just walked up to his brother and told him you know what's coming. I thought it was great how they killed off Littlefinger, what a twist! Perhaps, we will see the Red Woman at the start of next season.
18
Royal families in medieval times practice incest to keep the bloodline pure and to keep their wealth. Look at Europe, Russia, and Egypt. It still happens today with some of the Oil rich families. I do no condone incest at all. Terrible crime in this day and age. But, we all are the product of incest if you believe in the Creation Story in the Bible. I do.
6
I know look at the Hapsburgs. Hundred of years of inbreeding caused King Charles II of Spain to have tons of genetic deformities and be sterile. Incest was their down fall.
4
It wasn't incest. Even when Cain is afraid of being punished by God, he says he is most afraid of is being thrown out where people are. "My punishment is too great to bear. 14Now that You have driven me this day from the soil I must hide from Your presence, I shall be a restless wanderer on the earth and whoever finds me will kill me."
This notion that Adam and Eve and their children were the only people on earth is false, even by Biblical standards
This notion that Adam and Eve and their children were the only people on earth is false, even by Biblical standards
"Crime?" The reason for laws are mainly because scientifically, it is bad idea. Wear your seatbelt too.
So glad this is the last of the spoiler articles....shame on you
It's a recap of the show and if you did not see it it spoils it...Shame on you.
34
Sweetie with all due respect if you don't want spoilers of a show that happened yesterday, stay off the internet. This is the time for the people who watched at the time to talk about it.
10
Really? Did someone hold a gun to your head and force you to read this article?
4
Easily the greatest sustained TV series in history. It literally immortalized HBO. And it made perfectly clear the hopeless status of Netflix and its utter incompetence. Honestly, do you think this almost sorrowful streaming company could ever mount anything even close to GOT? It is so obvious that CEO Reed Hastings must fire personnel like Ted Sarandos on down, it's not funny anymore.
I have never observed a corporate entity with so little focus, so poorly staffed, and with a CEO so clueless.
I have never observed a corporate entity with so little focus, so poorly staffed, and with a CEO so clueless.
3
I think 'The Sopranos' still holds that title.
Hey, is this about the GoT finale or how much you hate Netflix? :)
2
Um, sorrt, but why don't you bring your wounded feelings elsewhere? This is a discussion of GotT, not a forum to complain about Hastling. Whatever it is you are upset about is clearly deeply personal and has nothing to do with this show.
1
To me the last two episodes have revealed the biggest flaw in the whole show. Very disappointing. Consider that the tree the three eyed raven lived in has kept the dead and white walkers out for thousands of years. There is absolutely no reason the Great Wall could not have done the same thing going into the future. The ONLY way the White walkers were able to tear it down was with Danny's dragon. If John Snow had never lived there would be no army of the dead invasion. Everything John Snow has done, he has done unwittingly for the ultimate purpose of letting this army into Westeros.
9
Then why bother having this show lol....the dead would of invaded in time and found a way around it the king could of frozen the seas and did something else.
3
The ordinary King Beyond the Wall, Mance, almost made it through the wall with his giants and chains. Do you really think that the Night King with his MASSIVE army of completely unified followers couldn't have done it with or without the dragon? The Dragon is just for effect.
4
I should add that the only way his life could have meaning is if the ultimate outcome is Westeros in better shape than it started.
I think zombies are dumb. I don't understand what the deal is with zombies. Why are they so ravenous? What is their point.
I fail to see how the dumb, divided non-zombies of Westeros can defeat the WW unless Qyburn comes up with something clever or Cersei decides to turn over her big arrow thingys to the Cause. So is everyone doomed? Are those WW going to Winterfell first? Better flee, Starks! Back to Old Town! Let's all get on boats like Euron said. Does that mean the WW can't cross the Narrow Sea ever, or only that they have to wait for it to get cold enough to freeze?
I'm really disappointed in the way the zombie takeover is taking over what used to be a fun political romp. Although I suppose it had to come to this.
I fail to see how the dumb, divided non-zombies of Westeros can defeat the WW unless Qyburn comes up with something clever or Cersei decides to turn over her big arrow thingys to the Cause. So is everyone doomed? Are those WW going to Winterfell first? Better flee, Starks! Back to Old Town! Let's all get on boats like Euron said. Does that mean the WW can't cross the Narrow Sea ever, or only that they have to wait for it to get cold enough to freeze?
I'm really disappointed in the way the zombie takeover is taking over what used to be a fun political romp. Although I suppose it had to come to this.
7
The Dany/Jon DNA thing didn't bother me; they didn't grow up together, didn't know, and aren't friggin twins like jaime & cersei. What bothered me was knowing they both finally found "the one" and the way GOT always works means 1 will die. Plus I've been rooting for Dany to take the iron throne for 7 years; i don't appreciate her being usurped by a male. (maybe I'm overly irritated bc of real life politics, who knows lol.) I want to see jaime and brienne end up together, not brienne and the wildling guy. Also, I doubt sam will care about his father and brother; only his mother loved him. With the wall gone there will be no night's watch so he'll become lord... deservedly so.
18
Valar Morghulis. I am suspecting heavy duty carnage next season with only a few left standing. Dany and Jon have assumed the role of tragic lovers: neither will make it. Their deaths are foreshadowed, especially recently. Jaime and Brienne? Both are warriors and will die with their boots on. They would expect no less...Tyrion is nigh on indestructible, and will find a way, as will Arya...super 8 ball says: it could happen...
3
Wow, I actually forgot that Jaime and Cersie were twins! Of course, they would have to be fraternal which makes them share no more DNA than normal siblings. I had done some research about DNA sharing to understand the Jon-Dany thing, but it reminded me of this fact, via a family discussion about my identical twin nephews--if they married identical twins, their children would have the DNA of full siblings. Even not marrying identical twins, their children will have the DNA of half-siblings. I digress, but I thought that was interesting...
Did anyone else sense that the relationship between Jon and Dany felt too scripted? Jon and Ygritte had enormous chemistry. Ok I know they date , but we all knew there would be Jonarys I just didn't feel the love.
I read another comment about Arya killing Cersi using Peters face, how awesome would that be!
Sadly now the dragons will have to battle one of their own. Couldn't the night ming find bis own egg to hatch geesh.
What about an Arya- Gendry reunion? She seems a bit uppity for him these days but maybe he could help her soften.
Reunion of the Hound and Arya needs to happen too. She needs to thank him, and he needs to get rid of his grumpyness.
Ok bittersweet ending is n9t what I am hoping for, but the Azor ahai prophesy claims he must plunge a dagger into his beloved's heart. Ugh just when we were hoping for a happily ever after.
I read another comment about Arya killing Cersi using Peters face, how awesome would that be!
Sadly now the dragons will have to battle one of their own. Couldn't the night ming find bis own egg to hatch geesh.
What about an Arya- Gendry reunion? She seems a bit uppity for him these days but maybe he could help her soften.
Reunion of the Hound and Arya needs to happen too. She needs to thank him, and he needs to get rid of his grumpyness.
Ok bittersweet ending is n9t what I am hoping for, but the Azor ahai prophesy claims he must plunge a dagger into his beloved's heart. Ugh just when we were hoping for a happily ever after.
2
So many unanswere questions: What's Viserion spewing that's bringing down the wall - antifreeze? How did those wights get the chains on him to drag him out of the lake if they can't swim?
11
And where did the chains come from!?!
6
Chains R Us. Very popular in Winterfell :) On a more serious note, I had exactly the same thought about the antifreeze. So much for THAT wall!
2
The chains came from Hardhome, the wildling settlement that the White Walkers captured. And the Night King has enough wights that he'd be fine losing some. He told them to jump into the water until the chains were affixed to the dragon. Clearly he can command them. If he loses a hundred wights and gains a dragon, he'd find it a good bargain.
1
I don't like what they've done with Tyrion. He's become stupid and he's my favorite character (except for the dragons). I don't want any more dragons to die. I don't like that Jon and Dany fell in love. Kvetch. Kvetch. Kvetch. Meanwhile, in real life my heart is breaking for the people in Texas and Louisiana.
13
What I (pathetically) ponder late into the night:
1) What happened to the red woman? I imagine she does play an important role in the final battle;
2) Cersei IS pregnant, but with Euron's child;
3) The Jon/Dany incest thing doesn't bother me, for many of the reasons cited in other comments;
4) I LOVED the Sansa Arya conspiracy, the revenge on Littlefinger and the authentic sibling conversation - "Don't get used to it, you're still strange and annoying..."
5) Tormund better not be dead (or a wight);
6) Sam will be the ultimate hero of the final battle, using science (alternative - he will be the good maester pitted against Qyburn the evil maester in a mini battle of the maesters);
7) Dany better be pregnant and the child had better live!
8) Perhaps Jon can actually learn to lie, and ironically his one big lie will be to not reveal his true parentage.
9) Theon will save Yara and die in the process, having been redeemed and having fulfilled a purpose.
1) What happened to the red woman? I imagine she does play an important role in the final battle;
2) Cersei IS pregnant, but with Euron's child;
3) The Jon/Dany incest thing doesn't bother me, for many of the reasons cited in other comments;
4) I LOVED the Sansa Arya conspiracy, the revenge on Littlefinger and the authentic sibling conversation - "Don't get used to it, you're still strange and annoying..."
5) Tormund better not be dead (or a wight);
6) Sam will be the ultimate hero of the final battle, using science (alternative - he will be the good maester pitted against Qyburn the evil maester in a mini battle of the maesters);
7) Dany better be pregnant and the child had better live!
8) Perhaps Jon can actually learn to lie, and ironically his one big lie will be to not reveal his true parentage.
9) Theon will save Yara and die in the process, having been redeemed and having fulfilled a purpose.
23
10) The man of many faces will return and you'll never guess whose face he's wearing or what he's up too '-)
2
11. Cersei gives birth to Eurons dwarf baby
1
I am glad someone else thinks Euron is the father. I also think Theon will die, and hope Tormund is still out there in the snow.
I HATE the Jon/Dany romance.
I HATE the Jon/Dany romance.
One can't help but notice Egner's repeated assurances to the reader of his feeling "gross" at the incest between Dany and Jon. While Dany is technically Jon's aunt, they are about the same age and were unknown to each other till recently. Theirs is a genuine, plausible, and well-motivated romance, cemented by a commonality of ethical and benevolent purpose. Methinks Jeremy Egner doth protest too much in feeling the need to declare his virtue on this issue, for reasons personal, no doubt, and perhaps subconscious. It brings to mind a Victorian matron fanning herself intensely to keep herself from fainting out of feigned mortification. I truly doubt that the realization of incest was the key to spoiling for Egner a sex scene that he would otherwise have enjoyed.
12
Or, like, he's weirded out by the incest despite liking the characters. This is a common reaction among viewers.
6
It was great to see Littlefinger finally get his (although one could wish for a little more due process before the execution), and it was great to see all the surviving Starks reconciled with one another. However, I'm afraid Bran has evolved from a person into a ploy device. Stories can get pretty boring and devoid of suspense if there is someone who sees all and knows all.
And indeed things have become pretty predictable in GOT. The momentum of events can no longer be easily altered, no longer do we have unexpected plot twists, no longer are we learning new things about GOT's strange and interesting world. A modern, enlightened outlook is creeping in.
And indeed things have become pretty predictable in GOT. The momentum of events can no longer be easily altered, no longer do we have unexpected plot twists, no longer are we learning new things about GOT's strange and interesting world. A modern, enlightened outlook is creeping in.
9
He can see the past, perhaps because the crows existed in the past and they are everywhere. He can see the present because the crows act as his eyes and they are everywhere. Fortunately, as far as I can tell, he can't see the future and that allows the show to make many twists and turns that he can't foresee.
6
Bran is the key and hub of all plot resolutions. He is us. We can see the past of the stories and the present...but not the future. Like Bran said of himself, we also see only in snippets and scenes. We, like Bran, are taking it all in and constantly trying to figure it all out. important but latent facts for now: Bran cannot talk to people or "touch" those who are living when he time travels. But he can interact with and touch the Night King while time traveling IN THE PAST. Bran also walks when he time travels. All these are important plot points. Bran is trying to process everything and once he figures out he can affect actions dealing with the Night King in the past then the interesting plot development becomes when and how will he change the past. I'm betting it happens once it looks like the mighty muscle and all physical powers have been defeated. The power of wisdom and magic will prevail over all the other power of brawn and blood.
1
Fire and ice are opposites. I have a feeling that things are not going to go well for Daeneryrs. She is fire now, but somehow will be the ice queen of the north. I think that the three dragons will be ridden by Jon, Tyrion, and Dany. The Targareyns will rule again. and Yes, I think Tyrion is one too.
3
I think Tyrion is a Targareyn too.
4
There are only two dragons left to ride: one for Dany and one for Jon/Aegon. The other one has the Night King on his back and is unlikely going to change riders.
9
Agree about Tyrion but think Jon will be revealed to be a Baratheon, not a Targaryen.
So I'm a bit of a stickler for detail. Why is a raven who carries a message white and the other ravens are black? (Like in Bran's visions.) Shouldn't they all be white now? Why does the 3 eyed raven need Sam to head him in the right direction regarding Jon's wedded parents? Wouldn't he know this? Or is he too busy seeing everything past and present he needs help? Where are the ships/wagon trains bringing back dragon glass? Why didn't Jon tell Cersei that Valerian steel also kills wights?
6
I thought it was interesting about Sam directing Bran as well. Bran's got google in his head, but he's still learning how to work it. He may have access to all knowledge, but maybe he can only hold so many pieces of info at a time... it hadn't occurred to him to look for a marriage. If this wasn't careless by the writers, then it could be significant. Otherwise - I'm guessing the dragon glass wagons are on the map we see at the beginning but we don't witness the movement. Are we sure Jon knows about Valerian steel and wights? If so, then I guess he's parceling out his info to Cersei.
2
The regular message ravens are black, too. The white ravens are supposed to only be sent out when the Maesters of the Citadel declare that Winter has actually arrived.
3
Only white ravens are sent from the Citadel to announce when winter is here. All other ravens are black and used by everyone.
1
Just wondering how the Dothraki will survive in the North without warm clothes.
22
YES! And the Unsullied with their arms out of armor. Also, the 2 groups are from warm areas - unused to snow.
Did Cersei not give Gregor the command to kill Jaime? Didn't it seem like she did? Even if Jaime has not entirely given up on Cersei, the prospect of Brienne, Tormund (still alive... still alive...), Jaime, Sandor, Jon, Dany, Jorah, Beric and Arya all fighting together in the North is as legendary as it was improbable just a few seasons ago.
5
Never thought Jamie would kill Ceredigion until the last episode. Yea, and he'll do it when she's fully pregnant. An arrow through t stomach so the kid gets it, too. Sorry.
I think that killing someone calls for more than one command. First nod means, get your sword out. Second means, proceed. Same happened with Tyrion earlier in the episode.
I don't understand why Jon/Danny romance is ick, they don't know anything about it and they are the two people on the show that deserve to get happiness at the end, together. This is a show in an imaginary place and GRRM did a great job up to now by writing the books, and DB and David in bringing it to the screen. I loved the Season 7 and I can't wait for season 8, I bet the majority of the GoT fans want a good finale where our beloved characters get their happy ending, I want a happy ending so yes, good job to everybody who is involved in the creation and production of show, it makes me happy and it makes me cry and that is all I need. Cersei will get what is coming for her and Jon and Dany will save Westeros and be happy together and I will continue to watch is 10 times a year for years to come. I'm a BIG FAN, HUGE FAN.....
13
I love your positive thinking, but I dont think both Jon and Daeny will survive :( Just might want to prepare yourself.
So Rhaegar has 2 children with Ellia, Rhaenys and Aegon, then another Aegon with Lyanna. Small complaint but why 2 kids named Aegon? More importantly could the house of the undying vision of "the dragon has 3 heads" simply be Ellia couldn't have a 3rd child so he needed to have 1 more? This makes more sense than the 3 dragon rider theory now that Viserion is a wight.
3
"A dragon is not a slave," we were reminded last night, and in a previous season (I forget which one) that Bran would fly. I expect him to warg into Viserion at the very last moment next season, becoming the 3rd dragon rider.
Of course, in the books, the first baby Aegon is not dead, having been swapped with another babe whose brains got scattered. He is the true 3rd rider, unless GRRM kills him off in some (probably never to be written) future book in order to more closely mesh with the series. By the end of Book 5 that Aegon has already invaded Westeros and is inflicting losses on the Lannisters. His is a very good story line in the novels that I wish had been continued in the HBO series.
Of course, in the books, the first baby Aegon is not dead, having been swapped with another babe whose brains got scattered. He is the true 3rd rider, unless GRRM kills him off in some (probably never to be written) future book in order to more closely mesh with the series. By the end of Book 5 that Aegon has already invaded Westeros and is inflicting losses on the Lannisters. His is a very good story line in the novels that I wish had been continued in the HBO series.
4
In the show the Night King has shown to be easily able to break Bran's warging. Would be pretty cool to see and based on the flying dreams from the 3eyed raven could turn out.
Book Aegon could very well be an imposter in my opinion, only GRRM can say but clearly in the books Jon is a Targ so that could be the 3 heads. Sometimes these prophesies are more simple than the obvious and Rhaegar in the vision saying to Ellia who is unable to have another child that a 3rd is needed could be the simple reason he finds another woman. That and the Knight of the Laughing Tree which has to be Lyanna.
Book Aegon could very well be an imposter in my opinion, only GRRM can say but clearly in the books Jon is a Targ so that could be the 3 heads. Sometimes these prophesies are more simple than the obvious and Rhaegar in the vision saying to Ellia who is unable to have another child that a 3rd is needed could be the simple reason he finds another woman. That and the Knight of the Laughing Tree which has to be Lyanna.
1
Uh . . . Bran can already fly--he does it every time he wargs into a raven to go check on the Night King.
1
GOT has witches, dragons, zombies, resurrection, time travel, flaming swords, white walkers with ice spears with unlimited range and fire proof babes, yet people are obsessed with how fast ravens and dragons can fly? Give me a break. Clearly ravens can fold space and travel thru way points we call black holes.
23
It amazes me too why they are comparing ravens in a fantasy series with real-life ravens. Even the critics. In addition, so many complaints to me are based on not paying attention
1) Sansa, Arya, Bran, Little Finger (LF): from the dagger discussion it was obvious they were hatching a plan using Bran. They were openly bickering. LF confident in his scheming of over 30 years with the best dismissed Sansa's warning of Arya as a Faceless Man.
2) I noticed that whenever a raven brought a message, the recipients would either state it was raven-brought, or/and they will hold on to the slip of paper. From the airing of this episode, there was no evidence that Dany and Tyrion received it. In fact, the prior scene, he had talked about her being impulsive, when she expressed anxiety about Jon being a hero. Following that, she jumped on her dragon to rescue Jon and co, no one mentioned the raven or there was no paper in that scene. Even if the director forgot about that in his interview, the photography editor clearly stayed true to the intent. Because this was to underscore how much Dany had fallen for Jon. Yes, it coincided with the call in Eastwatch for the raven to be sent. But did we see a raven arrive?
3) There was no indication that they had spent even a day Beyond the Wall when Gendry was ordered to go back, and then spent a night, which considering it's winter, the nights are longer than the days, so obviously well over 12 hours passed between Gendry leaving and Dany arriving.
1) Sansa, Arya, Bran, Little Finger (LF): from the dagger discussion it was obvious they were hatching a plan using Bran. They were openly bickering. LF confident in his scheming of over 30 years with the best dismissed Sansa's warning of Arya as a Faceless Man.
2) I noticed that whenever a raven brought a message, the recipients would either state it was raven-brought, or/and they will hold on to the slip of paper. From the airing of this episode, there was no evidence that Dany and Tyrion received it. In fact, the prior scene, he had talked about her being impulsive, when she expressed anxiety about Jon being a hero. Following that, she jumped on her dragon to rescue Jon and co, no one mentioned the raven or there was no paper in that scene. Even if the director forgot about that in his interview, the photography editor clearly stayed true to the intent. Because this was to underscore how much Dany had fallen for Jon. Yes, it coincided with the call in Eastwatch for the raven to be sent. But did we see a raven arrive?
3) There was no indication that they had spent even a day Beyond the Wall when Gendry was ordered to go back, and then spent a night, which considering it's winter, the nights are longer than the days, so obviously well over 12 hours passed between Gendry leaving and Dany arriving.
"Stop whinging," as the Hound said to Gendry. I say this to all those lamenting George R.R. Martin's absence. We're still here, he's not. It's our choice to stay and his to go. If you can't abide his absence, go with him.
A typical 90 minute film/television show is 90 pages of script. The same is true for a two hour production or a 30 minute sitcom. It's a page per minute, and those pages are not the narrow margined, single spaced pages of novels or newspapers.
Speaking of newspapers: a 30 minute television news program would just fill 1/2 of a NYT full length column in a printed edition.
Furthermore, very few movies adapted from novels meet the expectations of those who read before they watch, unless it's something like Disney's "The Computer Wore Tennis Shoes."
So imagine how difficult it is to adapt seven to ten hours of script from 3000 pages that only (maybe) exist in the mind of the novelist.
"Stop whinging," as the Hound said to Gendry. I say this to Cerci Lannister, who blames everyone but herself for all her ills.
Tyrion's murder of Tywin didn't cause a vacuum in the power structure of Westeros, she did, when she forged an alliance with the High Sparrow. And her actions caused the deaths of both Myrcella and Tommen.
Clearly, Jamie's not the stupidest Lannister.
"Stop whinging," as the Hound said to Gendry. I say to all those who begrudge GoT fans an hour's entertainment in a 168 hour news cycle.
A typical 90 minute film/television show is 90 pages of script. The same is true for a two hour production or a 30 minute sitcom. It's a page per minute, and those pages are not the narrow margined, single spaced pages of novels or newspapers.
Speaking of newspapers: a 30 minute television news program would just fill 1/2 of a NYT full length column in a printed edition.
Furthermore, very few movies adapted from novels meet the expectations of those who read before they watch, unless it's something like Disney's "The Computer Wore Tennis Shoes."
So imagine how difficult it is to adapt seven to ten hours of script from 3000 pages that only (maybe) exist in the mind of the novelist.
"Stop whinging," as the Hound said to Gendry. I say this to Cerci Lannister, who blames everyone but herself for all her ills.
Tyrion's murder of Tywin didn't cause a vacuum in the power structure of Westeros, she did, when she forged an alliance with the High Sparrow. And her actions caused the deaths of both Myrcella and Tommen.
Clearly, Jamie's not the stupidest Lannister.
"Stop whinging," as the Hound said to Gendry. I say to all those who begrudge GoT fans an hour's entertainment in a 168 hour news cycle.
22
Dany and Jon have to get together because that, I believe, is the only way the Targaryen line will survive and produce an heir. Dany believes that she can't have children because the witch told her that after trying to revive Drogo. More than several comments throughout the series have insinuated that the Targaryen incest-like behavior was how their ancestors kept the bloodlines pure but really they are keeping their dragon-taming in the family and it might not be possible to conceive without having Targaryen blood somewhere in both partners. Brother and sister is creepy but cousins, aunt/nephew, isn't that bad that we can't get over it.
4
Well, Drogo didn't have Targaryen blood, yet this didn't stop Dany from conceiving
2
Terrible ending waited two years for this kind of ending very disappointed WOW unsatisfied bbq ring it back and give it another ending terrible
2
what does this even mean
15
Jon lied more than a bit to Mance, Ygritte, etc.
8
That's a good point. And the cost of those lies was enormous. I'm sure Jon, if nothing else, doesn't want to experience those costs again.
the difference is that Jon was ordered by Lord commander mormont to lie and infiltrate the wildlings. even when it was an order, he had a hard time doing it.
2
Dany already has a kid. Perhaps I watch too many k-dramas but you don't give birth to a child, never see the body and assume the child is really dead. ("You don't write in a dire wolf and never use it." ) I guess I don't expect this kid to show up in GoT but perhaps in some sequel. Dothraki kid and Jon's kid duke it out for "GoT the next Generation?". Perhaps with Cersei's kid?
Don't Targaryens marry each other anyway? Incest doesn't seem to be a drawback for producing kings.
Don't Targaryens marry each other anyway? Incest doesn't seem to be a drawback for producing kings.
2
"Not in an episode that also found Theon cower again..." Sloppy grammar. This sentence should read "Not in an episode that also SAW Theon cower again..."
2
Stannis lives!
2
Winter is coming, can I please have Dani's wardrobe? This was the most visually interesting season. The battle scenes with dragons and white walkers were superb, as were the sweeping landscapes.
Since Tyrian has been the conscience of the story, and one who has not tried to "game" the realm, I wonder if he will rise to a place of prominence as other would-be monarchs are eliminated in the next season?
Also, I must say that as a woman I particularly enjoyed the roles played by the women in this season, especially Dani, Cersei and Sansa (as well as Arya and Brienne). Powerful, varied and complex.
Since Tyrian has been the conscience of the story, and one who has not tried to "game" the realm, I wonder if he will rise to a place of prominence as other would-be monarchs are eliminated in the next season?
Also, I must say that as a woman I particularly enjoyed the roles played by the women in this season, especially Dani, Cersei and Sansa (as well as Arya and Brienne). Powerful, varied and complex.
35
I don't really get into shows, but I followed GoT from the inception date. And I do watch a lot of movies. Yes, I agree, the season felt rushed and overly satisfying, but on the other hand, some of the episodes in the other seasons felt dragged and lacked pace. I do think 7 episodes was not enough for the amount of conclusions that needed to be reached, but it kind of compensated for 6 seasons where it seemed to take longer to get somewhere. Also, on the timeline and incest debate, it's a fantasy, so I kind of chuckle when people try to connect GoT to the real world. Who cares? There are flying on dragons and zombies. Not sure that these debates really matter. It's like saying we care about these items, because we feel uncomfortable, but not for these, because these are fun. Anyway, I think Jon and Dany will ride the 2 dragons and destroy the zombie army and the Night King; Hound beats Mountain, but dies; Jamie or Arya kill Cersei, but Jamie dies in the end; Dany will have Jon's baby; Daario will come to the rescue in the clash with Cersei; Tyrion is going to be a hero at some point, but I feel he will die; Theon will kill Euron, but will not save Yara, she will die; Beric will die; Tormund and Brienne will hook up after they beat the zombies; Sansa marries Gendry, who will be the new King of the North. I have no idea where Jorah, Bran or Sam fit in next season. Probably next season will be fast and furious and fun to watch, with episodes running well over the 1 hour mark.
8
I hadn't ever watched the show until last week. I was hooked at once, and binge watched all week to catch up! After 10 hour a day for a week, it's going to be really hard to have to wait.
9
Congrats on catching up!
2
GOT is a huge production with many characters. Apparently, too many people are just trashing it with "not good enough" commentary. Most fans ruin it for themselves by reading spoilers & passing them on.
Your check list is too jaded for me. I love love this show and how truly impressive it is. Sure things don't work....so what!
Last night was the best TV ever. Everyone needs to chill. As far as the incest, Cersei & Jamie grew up together & they know they are siblings. That is not the case for Jon/Dany situation.
And Tyrion has been in love with Dany since Mereen......that scene was him realizing once & for all that she would never love him in that way.
Your check list is too jaded for me. I love love this show and how truly impressive it is. Sure things don't work....so what!
Last night was the best TV ever. Everyone needs to chill. As far as the incest, Cersei & Jamie grew up together & they know they are siblings. That is not the case for Jon/Dany situation.
And Tyrion has been in love with Dany since Mereen......that scene was him realizing once & for all that she would never love him in that way.
12
I think that Tyrion is concerned with legacy. Since he believes that Daenerys can't bear children (he witnessed Daenery's seeming infertility throughout her involvement with Daario), he is likely concerned that this romance will end the line for the only two most reasonable rulers in Westros. I think that next season's Jon/Daenerys relationship drama will not only involve the question of incest (which, until modern history, has been a common enough historical reality among the ruling classes in the real world), but also the question of who continue the society that they achieve if they both die out (& Tyrion & Varys) will be buzzing this question to their Queen-- for the good of the everyday people). And all this is going to become further complicated when it is revealed that Jon is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. After all, Daenerys has worked her entire life to reclaim it, suffering greatly. Jon will probably not wish to claim it, but he would be the favored choice in Westros-- as a man, and as a proven leader. Not the best way to kick off a healthy relationship, incest aside.
2
Season 7 Was Amazing. And We Literally Just Can't Wait For The 8th One.
http://themagzone.com/wait-got-season-8-going-toughest/
Yes. This Wait Is The Toughest.
http://themagzone.com/wait-got-season-8-going-toughest/
Yes. This Wait Is The Toughest.
12
My prediction: John will die in battle, Dany will die giving birth to their child at the same time (the prince); he or she will be given to Sansa and Tyrion to raise (who will have found a true love connection and re-marry).
11
That would certainly wrap things up.
4
A note on Jon and Dany: Scientific evidence is weak for our favorite societal argument against incest (e.g., birth defects). The better reason to oppose incest is its potential to sexualize any relationship, destroying barriers that preserve healthy family bonds. Although I wish Jon and Dany hadn't gone there, their paths to this moment explain why we are less disturbed by their romance than by Cersei and Jaime Lannister's. It has nothing to do with the more attenuated connection between an aunt and her nephew, and everything to do with a respect for healthy love.
4
This is the most interesting question to me:
What did you make of Tyrion’s apparent concern outside Jon and Aunt Dany’s love shack? Jealousy? Concern about how it would complicate the Great War? Or was he, as he often seemed in earlier seasons, a stand-in for us?
I wonder if he knows the true identity of Jon, and understands the complications that might arise.
What did you make of Tyrion’s apparent concern outside Jon and Aunt Dany’s love shack? Jealousy? Concern about how it would complicate the Great War? Or was he, as he often seemed in earlier seasons, a stand-in for us?
I wonder if he knows the true identity of Jon, and understands the complications that might arise.
5
I'm going with concern/
Great War
Great War
I hope the Golden Company will bring King's Landing some food as well. Does this also mean since Cersei will hop a ship with her child to Essos when the Night King slowly descends south? Is there stirrings in King Landing regarding the dragons, which must have been seen from above? I feel like between the dragons, the white walker from the crate and the impending starvation the citizens must be wondering what's going on.
3
The author seems to lack understanding of Tyrion, and ignores the carefully crafted (over 7 seasons now) of a brilliant guy with a huge heart and brilliant mind but the foundational family traumas have wounded him deeply and made/make him vulnerable to emotional manipulation. Because of his self-image and his longing for love, his father and now Cersi have been able to manipulate him fairly easily because it leaves big blind spot in his perception of the world. He killed his dad because of Shea actually, which was a reprise of what pops did when he was younger to his then "girlfriend". Pretty nasty stuff. Another tell, small but perhaps significant, was the look on Tyrion's face when he saw Jon go into Daenys room and then....
Also, many of us have been waiting for the show to start condensing down and side stories ended or weened out because yes, there's a lot to cover now and only one season to do so. You complain about the fast movement, but tell us, how would you have done it. I think the producers are doing a good job, and the story does need to move along.
Also, many of us have been waiting for the show to start condensing down and side stories ended or weened out because yes, there's a lot to cover now and only one season to do so. You complain about the fast movement, but tell us, how would you have done it. I think the producers are doing a good job, and the story does need to move along.
7
I thought the season finale was a very good one. I've read the books, but I like the TV version more--a first for me. I found the finale satisfying--Stark sisters reconciled, Samwell Tarly at Winterfell, Jon and Dany looking beautiful together, and I expected the Night King to be on the march. I liked seeing the various characters greeting one another at their "summit" meeting. I enjoyed the finale and didn't feel "cheated". I think most of the people who post here are awfully critical considering this is a TV show about a fantasy series--albeit a grim one. I'll be looking forward to the seven final shows.
13
The Stark sisters didn't reconcile because they were never feuding. It was an act to set-up Little Finger.
6
I dont think they were in cahoots until later to which the viewers were not privy. They reconciled off camera in order to keep the Littlefinger scene a surprise.
8
A set-up arranged while the three of them--Bran, Arya, and Sansa--were standing out in the God's Wood after Bran gave Arya the knife.
The table seems set for a truly epic final season 8.
We've plenty of characters to cheer for, ever hopeful most will survive and prevail.
If there's one plot gift to deliver for "fan appreciation", I'd like to see one more Arya "face-off' for Stark justice to Cercei. Getting close enough to Cersei is a problem, but enough characters are still around to provide the face, Jaimie, Qyburn, the Monster... Serve it up like the brutal death of Talisa. Arya reminds Cersei, "The Lannisters always pay their debts." Or "The Starks return your regards."
...I believe Dany is aware of Tyrion's / Cersei's betrayal,
The arrival of Jaimie sans army will confirm it.
We've plenty of characters to cheer for, ever hopeful most will survive and prevail.
If there's one plot gift to deliver for "fan appreciation", I'd like to see one more Arya "face-off' for Stark justice to Cercei. Getting close enough to Cersei is a problem, but enough characters are still around to provide the face, Jaimie, Qyburn, the Monster... Serve it up like the brutal death of Talisa. Arya reminds Cersei, "The Lannisters always pay their debts." Or "The Starks return your regards."
...I believe Dany is aware of Tyrion's / Cersei's betrayal,
The arrival of Jaimie sans army will confirm it.
3
Arya has Little Fingers face Bingo!
2
My big prediction - Little Finger lives! After speaking for 6 seasons like he has been punched in the throat, Sansa's knife just alleviated built up pressure on his vocal cords, so now he can speak above whispers - I'm guessing in a slightly higher tone.
And 2 cents - Theon is sailing for the Iron Isle to save his sis - takes a look around, sees none of the Iron Fleet, shrugs his shoulders and saves her easily. Sis then slaps him in the face, calls him an idiot, and tells Dany they are up to no good.
Interesting that Dany hasn't taken out the Iron Fleet yet, but they haven't been where Jon Snow has.
And 2 cents - Theon is sailing for the Iron Isle to save his sis - takes a look around, sees none of the Iron Fleet, shrugs his shoulders and saves her easily. Sis then slaps him in the face, calls him an idiot, and tells Dany they are up to no good.
Interesting that Dany hasn't taken out the Iron Fleet yet, but they haven't been where Jon Snow has.
1
How is it that characters can seemingly zip across oceans in the blink of an eye, but Bran can't get a raven message to Jon Snow in time to tell him NOT to sleep with his Aunt Dany?
2
They might think the news is better conveyed face to face. After all, he's on his way home.
2
I dont think Bran cares about that part... not the new Bran anyway
Shame on me, but what remains in my consciousness after last night was the realization that Jon Snow's behind is the most beautiful landscape in Westeros.
50
This may be a minor point, but in watching the final episode again, I was struck by the fact that the torching of the wall was preceded by another of Bran’s trances. Since Bran is now all-seeing, could it be that he was witnessing the future destruction of the wall? This would be important because his foresight would allow for someone to warn the people on the wall about their impending doom. This would allow for some marshaling of forces at the wall to either prevent its destruction or to at least be waiting when the undead horde lurches through the gap. This foreknowledge could also allow Daenerys and Co. to consider how to defeat or at least contend with a Zombie dragon. We may also hope that the Mother of Dragons—the person who birthed them from antique dragon eggs—might have some power to rescue Viserion from the dark side.
4
It's perplexing from the "logic" perspective because obvious question is if he can see the future why not warn of the catastrophe that would have come from Tyrion's plan to capture a white walker army soldier. My hope is that there will be a Very Good explanation of why Bran/Three-Eyed Raven is not intervening in some of the extremely important choices being made.
Perhaps all these events have to happen for the ultimate victory that will happen in the future.
Perhaps all these events have to happen for the ultimate victory that will happen in the future.
4
True. Omniscience always creates logical problems. But for storytelling purposes, there was no reason to have Bran's trance precede the destruction of the wall. They could have just cut to that scene. The fact that Bran was seeing it must have some significance. IMHO.
I kind of wondered if Bran was there to somehow allow the WW through the wall. Obviously Viserion's fire breath did it but did Bran as raven - bearing in mind his encounter with the Night King that time - create a portal through the wall's magic? I just don't assume he's necessarily always a force for good. Or this is what I'm hoping anyway. In the interests of a less boring Bran..
3
What happened with all that Dragon Glass mined by Jon? Will it be used as WMD? I'll bet that the big crossbow intended for Dany's dragons will be used against the Night King and his Zombie Viserion.
What happened to the Red Witch?
What happened to the Red Witch?
6
Not before there is a dragon showdown with re fire vs blue fire.
7
I'm thinking that they need kill only the rider, which would make the dragon shatter the way those undead when the one who, someone suggested, resurrected them was killed.
6
Good point. That would be very dramatic if Visyrion, at the moment he was about to accomplish something calamitous was reduced to dust because (choose your hero) eliminates the Ice King just in the knick of time.
3
Predictions:
The mountain, who is already dead so probably has some wight-protection, will eventually fight alongside his brother in the final battle.
Jaime will be surprised to find his army following him north (they hate Cersei) and he'll arrive with them in the nick of time during an omg-is-this-how-Jon-Snow-is-going-to-die battle.
Battle of the baby bumps, Daenerys wins because she actually is pg.
Brienne will save Tormund in battle and will ride into the sunset on another quest rather than stay for the 'monster size babies' plan.
Now that Jon's status as rightful ruler is revealed, he'll be killed off and I'll quit watching the show in protest but will be back the next week.
The mountain, who is already dead so probably has some wight-protection, will eventually fight alongside his brother in the final battle.
Jaime will be surprised to find his army following him north (they hate Cersei) and he'll arrive with them in the nick of time during an omg-is-this-how-Jon-Snow-is-going-to-die battle.
Battle of the baby bumps, Daenerys wins because she actually is pg.
Brienne will save Tormund in battle and will ride into the sunset on another quest rather than stay for the 'monster size babies' plan.
Now that Jon's status as rightful ruler is revealed, he'll be killed off and I'll quit watching the show in protest but will be back the next week.
7
Love the last part! But I would love to see Brienne with Tormund. He thinks she great and beautiful!
Unless the show can establish some sort of motivation for the Night King and his army of the "frozen walking dead," all the other stories seem trivialized. Are they just a mindless army of evil? What do they want? If not, none of the other stories really matter.
5
Good point. What are the motivations of the walkers? Was it more than the fact that they were initially created by the forest people to kill humans?
3
The Night King's army represents climate change. So it has no motivation. It mindlessly moves ahead, and if the humans in the Seven Kingdoms don't recognize the threat and unite to defeat it, they will doom their world to endless winter. Oh, and I think Cersei is now the Denier-in-Chief, aka, Donald Trump. She's in it for herself, and everyone else be damned.
7
I don't think there is a Night King Plan - the point is that this intended Ultimate Weapon of War became the very bringer of Mass Destruction for all as our own weapons are.
1
I think it's probably a stretch of imagination, but do you think Theon could turn out to be the Prince-That-Was-Promised?
4
i doubt it. His is a minor house and he can produce no heirs.
3
I do have a vision, though, of everybody being killed off in the last episode and Theon, by pure chance, being left. He walks up and sits on the Iron Throne and waits for someone to tell him to move. But nobody is left to do so.
2
Seeing Littlefinger become littlerfinger was satisfying. Seems like the incest thing has everyone up in the Ewww Zone but as incest goes this is pretty tame. They have not known each other, cannot have kids and does not seem to be any real consequences. Unlike Cercei/Jaime. Zombie Dragon is cool.
2
I'll bet that Jon and Dany *do* have a child. There's been a lot of pregnancy foreshadowing re Dany the past couple of weeks, capped by Jon's suggesting that the witch from season 1 might not be the best source of reproductive information.
3
Somehow Jon has managed to stumble through all the seasons looking and acting like a stunned ox and making plans that get most of his crew killed and he is still hailed as a great leader. With luck in the Battle of Icemageddon Dany will give Jon a suicide mission and with a legion of skilled archers with dragonglass arrowheads make short work of the blue boys who lead from the front.
1
Jon Snow will no doubt die bravely in battle somewhere in the next 6 episodes, since heroes do dumb things in Westeros. That will leave Daenerys looking for a suitable royal mate, with one obvious choice: Samwell Tarly, heir to the riches of Highgarden. Ruling ain't cheap you know.
5
Are the Tarlys Highgarden's rightful heirs? I thought they were Highgarden banner men.
1
Well, since all the Tyrells are dead, it's possible the Tarly's are next in line for the position. Since "Warden of" seems to be hereditary, it's possible Sam's sister or Little Sam might end up Warden of the South and ruler of Highgarden. Sam, of course, should not be able to do so considering he's still technically a member of the Night's Watch.
Course, if the Wall and Night King are gone by the end of all this . . . then do we need a Night's Watch any longer? In which case, Sam might be able to become Warden of the South regardless of which side rules in the end--Cersei's side promised it to his dad; Dany should want to reward him for saving Jorah; and . . . Jon just plain likes and trusts Sam.
Course, if the Wall and Night King are gone by the end of all this . . . then do we need a Night's Watch any longer? In which case, Sam might be able to become Warden of the South regardless of which side rules in the end--Cersei's side promised it to his dad; Dany should want to reward him for saving Jorah; and . . . Jon just plain likes and trusts Sam.
1
Feared that Tyrion was going to be killed off in the finale. That it didn't happen was a relief. He was the best man I seen in this series. Personally, relieved to see Little finger finished off. I believe everyone was getting tired of his little schemes (turns out they were not so 'little').
5
The finale pitted 2 types of leadership against each other: the conniving manipulators (Cersei, Littlefinger, Tyrion) against the truthful ones (Jon, Dany, Sansa, Jaime). Each side lost a bit - Lilttlefinger was the big loser, but Cersei lost Jaime and a chance to forge new alliances with Dany's crowd; Tyrion lost influence with Dany and is growing less important with each episode. The truthful side lost a bit - Jaime lost his role in King's Landing, goes to an uncertain future. Jon lost the alliance he hoped for with Cersi - but gained Dany's personal partnership, and she his. Sansa showed her ability to survive the worst types of manipulators - she is the character that has grown the most. So the truthful leaders gained the most, the lying ones seem to have lost the most as per the finale - and the divisions between them bode ill for the fight against the Night King's zombie army which is now certainly coming for them all.
5
Thought about Tyrion lurking outside Dany's cabin: Remember he encouraged her to let Darios go. Sure he may be in love with her, but I think he sees Jon as potential distraction to her ambitions to take the Iron Throne. We'll see though. I don't dismiss him betraying someone. Can't trust anything with this show! ;)
5
While I began to think, watching the same scene, that Tyrion's motive for telling Dany to leave Daario behind might not have been so disinterested after all!
I've been thinking all season that Tyrion will end up being the betrayal for love mentioned in the Three Treasons prophecies in the House of the Undying. He could as easily be the betrayal for blood, since in either case he could be betraying Dany for his family. If the betrayal is for love, though, it could also be because his love for her is unrequited. I interpreted his response upon seeing Jon enter Dany's chamber as wounded jealousy, turning at the end to resentment; there have been a number of scenes through the season in which he's looked at her in a way that suggested longing and, when watching her with Jon at various times, a sad awareness of her attraction to Jon and resignation to the hopelessness of his own longing for her. For that matter, he could also be the betrayal for power, if he feels that his power is waning as Jon's waxes. But I'm guessing that Varys will be the betrayal for power.
I've been thinking all season that Tyrion will end up being the betrayal for love mentioned in the Three Treasons prophecies in the House of the Undying. He could as easily be the betrayal for blood, since in either case he could be betraying Dany for his family. If the betrayal is for love, though, it could also be because his love for her is unrequited. I interpreted his response upon seeing Jon enter Dany's chamber as wounded jealousy, turning at the end to resentment; there have been a number of scenes through the season in which he's looked at her in a way that suggested longing and, when watching her with Jon at various times, a sad awareness of her attraction to Jon and resignation to the hopelessness of his own longing for her. For that matter, he could also be the betrayal for power, if he feels that his power is waning as Jon's waxes. But I'm guessing that Varys will be the betrayal for power.
2
Tyrion would prove to be the third betrayer. I'm not sure if it's for blood or love, as the Witch's betrayal could have been for Dany's love of Drogo, or the Witch's lust for blood of the Dothraki.
However, Tyrion's love for his family/blood, will be the motivation.
However, Tyrion's love for his family/blood, will be the motivation.
Thank you, Jeremy for a wonderful season's coverage. Your reviews added immeasurable pleasure to one of my favorite television shows.
Re: shrinking. The map shown behind the opening credits has also shrunk to Westeros alone.
Re: shrinking. The map shown behind the opening credits has also shrunk to Westeros alone.
9
Just a thought, if Euron is sailing to pick up the a Golden Company instead of running from the undead and Theon is chasing after Euron to save Yara, won't Theon discover Euron &Cersi's double-cross? He could be the real hero???
5
Who knows where Yara is though? She could be in the dungeons at the Red Keep rather than with Euron.
5
He may, but most importantly, the Iron Islands' defenses will be scant allowing Theon to rescue Yara.
1
I really think GRRM brought something to the storytelling that David Beinorr and DB Weiss can't quite match. They mastered creating amazing set pieces (Cersei's Sept explosion was breathtaking), but seem to buckle under the weight of their own world-building. It feels as though they're overwhelmed with the amount of story lines they have to bring together and, as a result, resort to cheap storytelling tricks. This show has had a total of 4 last-minute saves of characters, two with Uncle Benjen alone and essentially made Bran an exposition dump. Considering this show has set such a high standard for storytelling, it's rather disappointing to see it suffer because the showrunners believe "there's just not enough time." Why isn't there enough time? Is GoT not HBO's most successful property since The Wire? Is HBO not making 5 spin-offs based on the success of this series alone? I just don't understand the justification for sacrificing good storytelling to get this done by 2018, when no one is asking for it to be over. And if so, why waste so much time on Theon getting kicked in the groin? What was with the clumsy, dragged out handling of the Arya/Sansa/LF storyline? Was Sam really at the Citadel just to find that tidbit about Jon's heritage and cure Jorah in 2 scenes? Just feels like story is driving the characters, when it should be the other way around.
12
The Beiner and Weiss aren't the "shoemakers" in the sense of how long it will run. The network decides how many seasons. I think they had to fight to get an 8th season and yes, it truncates some of the lines. Difficult task to translate that multifaceted story into a TV show. Agree about Bran though, in the books and the series his role was being groomed as something very important beyond just being an informant and "scout".
3
It was Benioff and Weiss who decided to shorten the last two seasons, not HBO, because they wanted to move onto other things—like Confederacy, which is already drawing criticism for tone-deaf blunders that are strikingly parallel to some of those they've made in GoT. They could have handed the show off to others, but didn't. It's too bad.
Loved to 90 minute format, anyone know if that will carry to next seasons episodes, I read somewhere that it might, also, thought only those of Targyrian blood could ride a dragon?
5
No, the Targaryens were part of the "dragon lord" class (nobility, really) back when Valyria was still an existing empire but many, many families/people could ride the dragons. Valyrians seemed to have a special affinity for dragons and came from a land of volcanoes, but that doesn't mean they have anything more than a natural ability to connect with dragons. From the book, GRRM makes it clear that some non-Valyrians have been able to bond with and ride dragons (including Targaryen bastards) and that dragons only accept one rider at a time -- their rider must die before they'll let someone else ride them. The Night King is a super magical dude and dragons are super magical creatures, so it makes sense.
2
Does seem Jon's dark hair might be a throwback to earlier Targaryens??, all the ones on the show so far have had the white blonde hair. Is not Aegon still alive and with the Company Cercei just hired?
3
His hair is dark because his mother's was dark. And, one of the major threads early in the set was how when dark-haired people (like King Robert) have children with blonds (like Cersei), they have dark-haired children. But, of course, she didn't, and that was the issue that got Lord Arryn and Ned Stark killed when they figured it out.
And good bet is that IF Cersei is really pregnant, then the baby will be born with dark hair--meaning it is NOT Jaime's.
And good bet is that IF Cersei is really pregnant, then the baby will be born with dark hair--meaning it is NOT Jaime's.
1
It's so hard to remain calm for winter is coming and I have no dragon glass.
13
I think Tyrion betrayed Dany. We don't know what he told Cersei to get her to (pretend to) change her mind. He talked about how much he loved her children (thus revealing his weakness). He's been slipping lately in his advisory duties. She played him and he fell for it. She could have killed him. She didn't. She didn't kill Jaime when she could have. Something happened. Otherwise, why not show us the conversation and why show him lurking outside her door?
I fear Tyrion's days are numbered.
I fear Tyrion's days are numbered.
4
Am I mistaken but did Theon kill Euron on not on the beach?
That wasn't Euron.
2
No, Euron was nowhere close to Dragonstone. The man he killed was the leader of the remaining Iron Island deserters who followed Yara (and Theon) to Essos to join up with Dany when Euron took over the Iron Islands in the king's moot. Remember, the small number of ships that survived Euron's attack pulled a floating Theon out of the water and expressed their disappointment in him for allowing his sister to get captured. Theon killed that man.
4
That wasn't Euron. Euron left for Essos. I think...
Other than the great war, the most interesting questin for me is what will Arya do next? Go back after Cersei?
And why didn't anyone suggest to Dany that a brief flight to incinerate the Iron Fleet would be both good payback and a good preventive measure?
And why didn't anyone suggest to Dany that a brief flight to incinerate the Iron Fleet would be both good payback and a good preventive measure?
3
Because they'd asked for a truce for parlay. Dany and Jon would never break their words on something like that. Cersei would, but not them.
1
True, but I was thinking after the parlay was over. It is a mystery why they have not taken the Iron Fleet out of the war.
Mr Egner seems far more concerned about the incest issue than necessary, compared to the other GoT cases. In the real-world, yes we need to intercede, but in Westeros J&D’s union is nothing due to its innocent nature. The Targaryens actively pursued incest as a means to retain power for generations. C&J grew up together and knew what they were getting into.
In Westeros, what are the foundations that make incest frowned upon, knowledge or biology? Biologically you can't get closer than two who shared a womb, but J&D are at least different generations. What is more disturbing is the beforehand knowledge and corruption of a pre-existing natural relationship. The corruption of siblings, as with the Targaryens and C&J, is an active choice; J&D’s love is innocent as it is grown with lack of knowledge of the biological connection, and instead comes from respect and admiration for each other as leaders.
Personally, I'd look past it in this fictional case because, unlike Cersi's twisted view of the future, J&D check each other, bring out their best leadership, and would lead Westeros into a golden age of equality and prosperity.
Unwrapping, for audiences, the question of knowledge vs biology will be an element of creating a satisfying conclusion next year. I'm just concerned that the limited number of episodes is going to make it harder yet to allow issues like this one, which are the humanity of this show, to shine through the CGI extravaganza that season 8 will surely be.
In Westeros, what are the foundations that make incest frowned upon, knowledge or biology? Biologically you can't get closer than two who shared a womb, but J&D are at least different generations. What is more disturbing is the beforehand knowledge and corruption of a pre-existing natural relationship. The corruption of siblings, as with the Targaryens and C&J, is an active choice; J&D’s love is innocent as it is grown with lack of knowledge of the biological connection, and instead comes from respect and admiration for each other as leaders.
Personally, I'd look past it in this fictional case because, unlike Cersi's twisted view of the future, J&D check each other, bring out their best leadership, and would lead Westeros into a golden age of equality and prosperity.
Unwrapping, for audiences, the question of knowledge vs biology will be an element of creating a satisfying conclusion next year. I'm just concerned that the limited number of episodes is going to make it harder yet to allow issues like this one, which are the humanity of this show, to shine through the CGI extravaganza that season 8 will surely be.
7
With the way the show handled the Jon "reveal" and scene with Dany, I'm wondering if it's nothing more than a red herring and that Jon really is the bastard son of Ned Stark and Arasha Dayne. This could explain some of the increased prominence of Beric, and the paths they share re: the Lord of Light. Or maybe the unknown son of Robert and Lyanna? Some have speculated that Tyrion is actually a Targaryen -- the product of the Mad King raping Joanna Lannister, but what if he is in fact Aegon? Perhaps Ned called in a debt to Tywin "always pays his debts" Lannister, and asked him to raise Aegon as Tyrion. In my mind, Tyrion has been the most important character in both the books and the show. Plus, would the show/books really resolve the paternity of the true heir to the Iron Throne before the final season/book? In any case, it's a fun maze to explore.
4
I don't know, that would mean that Ned would have forsaken his wedding vows to have a bastard- something which would have been very out of character for him, and which, frankly, everybody spent years and years remarking on that Jon's very existence seemed so out of character for Ned otherwise. One thing we know about Ned is that he took oaths, including wedding oaths, very seriously, and for him to cheat on his wife would have been a complete betrayal of everything he held important. About the only thing which would cause Ned to take that hit to his honor, that he betrayed his wife, would be a bigger promise- like the one he made to his dying sister, to protect the life of her son.
1
So Bran's confirmation of the parenting and marriage and the repeated flashbacks to the birth are all misdirection?
That would simultaneously signal complete disrespect for the audience and a certifiable jumping of the shark.
That would simultaneously signal complete disrespect for the audience and a certifiable jumping of the shark.
2
I don't get it.
What is the "motivation" on the White-walkers?
I need a Marlon Brando or a Lee Strasberg to explain their reason.
They don't want gold.
They don't want sex.
They don't want to pillage and rape.
They don't need food or water or housing.
They don't even want to rip and rend each other.
Sure, when the threshold tips over they are perfectly willing to grunt and gibber and rip up breathing folk... and then what?
Is this some sort of Trumpian metaphor?
Is this the ultimate snake eating its tail?
Yes, I get the, Big Fear, They are coming!
But WHY are they coming?
What's their motivation?
And the "incest motif" is why men should never be allowed to write fiction.
What is the "motivation" on the White-walkers?
I need a Marlon Brando or a Lee Strasberg to explain their reason.
They don't want gold.
They don't want sex.
They don't want to pillage and rape.
They don't need food or water or housing.
They don't even want to rip and rend each other.
Sure, when the threshold tips over they are perfectly willing to grunt and gibber and rip up breathing folk... and then what?
Is this some sort of Trumpian metaphor?
Is this the ultimate snake eating its tail?
Yes, I get the, Big Fear, They are coming!
But WHY are they coming?
What's their motivation?
And the "incest motif" is why men should never be allowed to write fiction.
5
Revenge on the living or the Children of the Forest who made them? The Night King's Kingdom has not been explored on the show, but for a glimpse of his ice castle on an earlier season. There's also a Night Queen. And where are Craster's babies? There's so much we have to assume until we can read the new book(s).
1
Way to go rosa
1
If the Night King was created as a weapon by the Children of the Forest, then maybe he wants what all weapons want: a steady hand guiding them as they hit the target.
If the Night King is dead, then maybe he wants what everyone who lives too long seems to want: a lasting death.
What do zombies want?
If the Night King is dead, then maybe he wants what everyone who lives too long seems to want: a lasting death.
What do zombies want?
1
I enjoyed the episode, I think it did a good job of ticking the boxes it had to without boring us.
We've imagined many of these characters meetings for years, I don't think the show writers can satisfy all of our imaginations.
I do think "Jonerys' private meeting would have looked a bit more....erm...enjoyable.
But, hey at this point we are all so invested, we just want more.
We've imagined many of these characters meetings for years, I don't think the show writers can satisfy all of our imaginations.
I do think "Jonerys' private meeting would have looked a bit more....erm...enjoyable.
But, hey at this point we are all so invested, we just want more.
1
You suggest that maybe the lack of nuance is a result of the show finally eclipsing the books - meaning both the published and yet to be published material - but ultimately settle on the shortened season as being the reason. But I think you're giving the show's writers too much credit and your first thought is closer to the truth. I don't think the shortened season has been an issue. For starters with some of the episodes being longer than the traditional 50 minutes, the season hasn't really been THAT much shorter. Also, there have been entire scenes this season where the characters literally for 10 straight minutes go "Oh I haven't seen you in a while." "I know right?!" "Remember we used to be buddies?" "I know!" "OK. Cool". There are at least 10 minutes worth of these types of interactions every single episode, whereas in the past when the writing was at its peak I remember feeling like I had to watch every episode twice because the conversations were so dense and literally every word was important to plot. I've still enjoyed this season but it's a bummer to see it lose that depth that, for a lot of people I think, made the show so unbelievable.
5
Why didn't Jon tell Cersei and company that Valerian steel would also kill the White Walkers? He said fire and dragon glass, but not Valerian steel unless I missed it. Also, I wonder if Jon (Aegon) Snow will ride one of the dragons when he and Dany face the Night King?!! I was let down a bit last night except for the demise of Little Finger - poetic justice! But, I'm patient and will hold off any criticism until the end of Season 8!!!!
1
Only 6 episodes left! (Sad face)
But there are also 5 pilots under George R.R. Martin's guidance currently in the works. Related, but not spin-offs. It's a big world he's created.
And the 5 new shows (none of which is guaranteed) don't even include the adventures of Dunk and Egg, which he would like to produce AFTER he writes the next 5 novellas.
Don't worry. Your GoT itch will be scratched for years to come. Hopefully with the final two books.
But there are also 5 pilots under George R.R. Martin's guidance currently in the works. Related, but not spin-offs. It's a big world he's created.
And the 5 new shows (none of which is guaranteed) don't even include the adventures of Dunk and Egg, which he would like to produce AFTER he writes the next 5 novellas.
Don't worry. Your GoT itch will be scratched for years to come. Hopefully with the final two books.
1
What are the odds that Arya is going to harvest Lord Baelish's face? If she does will she go to King's Landing and visit with Cersei?
21
Yes! Arya and Hound will go on another road trip - this time to King's Landing. Arya as Little Finger will choke the life out of Cersei. The Hound & Mountain will have their Cleganbowl. Then Arya will wear Cersei's face, kill Euron, and order the Golden Company to join the fight against the dead.
1
She may 'harvest' the face, but . . . it's Winter, and the last conversation between the sisters reminded us that during the winter, it's the PACK that survives. Surely she will not be roaming off on her own again for a while.
1
RIP Littlefinger, thank you for playing the Game of Thrones. For all his smarts, he really messed up giving Sansa to Bolton while dreaming of marrying her himself. That makes no sense. And his ambition to sit on the Iron Throne was just as unrealistic.
5
Alexander the Great's army was the first western army to encounter elephants when he 'explored' India. He had no problems since he had disciplined, experienced troops. But horses will shy away. So the Dothraki will be useless but the Unsullied will have no problem. BTW, elephants have been known to trample friend and foe when wounded.
3
Season finale was predictable no big surprises. overall season 7 was very predictable and other than the special effects not very interesting. I loved GoT, but the emotional side of the story was gone. I am glad the Starks got their revenge, Dany and John (no real chemistry). The best part of the season were the reunions between lesser characters. Predictions for next season. Jon tells Sam and Bran, not to tell anyone who he is , then goes off to fight the Night King Leaving Dany and their Child to rule the 7 kingdoms. continued warnwn
2
I think the conversation between Theon and Jon was an important one. Jon tells Theon he's a Greyjoy AND a Stark—that he doesn't *have* to choose. Little does he know, he's going to be hit with the same conundrum in season 8 when he learns he's both Stark and Targaryen. But considering Jon is much more rational and level-headed than Theon, he'll know his true father to always be Ned Stark, the one who raised him and nurtured him, making him who he is today. Jon learning of his true parentage will not change his goals or his feelings towards Daenerys.
8
One thing: the fact that Jon is a "legitimate" heir to Westeros and has a "better" hereditary claim to the throne than Dany really doesn't matter and I'm surprised that people have not cottoned on to this. For one thing, Jon has already "bent the knee" to Dany - that kind of solves the problem. For another, in the books, Aegon Targaryen already exists. Rhaegar's son with Elia survived, as we know, and is in the process of trying to make gains in Westeros at the advice of Tyrion. He is doing this because Tyrion and he appreciate that a woman like Dany, who has so much power that she has accumulated at such high a cost, is not going to simply hand over power because a nephew turns up who, supposedly, has a better claim than she does.
I agree about Tyrion - he should be reading Cersei far better than he is. But all season, he has been making the wrong calls. He sent Jon beyond the wall, which ended up losing a dragon that the Night King now has, for no good reason. It was always pretty clear that Cersei could not be trusted. BTW, I strongly disagree with people who seem to think that the Night King had a plan to lure Dany to the north to get her dragon. He clearly just took advantage of circumstances as they presented themselves. He did not know Jon was coming for a wight - he could not have planned for what happened.
I agree about Tyrion - he should be reading Cersei far better than he is. But all season, he has been making the wrong calls. He sent Jon beyond the wall, which ended up losing a dragon that the Night King now has, for no good reason. It was always pretty clear that Cersei could not be trusted. BTW, I strongly disagree with people who seem to think that the Night King had a plan to lure Dany to the north to get her dragon. He clearly just took advantage of circumstances as they presented themselves. He did not know Jon was coming for a wight - he could not have planned for what happened.
6
To be fair, Tyrion did counsel against Dany's air and fire rescue of the magnificent seven. Dany was the one convinced her dragons were invincible.
1
I don't think Jaime turned on Cersei but rather turned away from her. His reactions to her have consistently shown that he's conflicted about her bloodthirstiness and desire for revenge, and it seems to me that his flight from King's Landing reflects that he's chosen for the moment to put the greater good ahead of political machinations.
3
When she insulted him and called him the dumbest Lannister -- that had to be the last straw. She is utterly cruel.
1
For those wondering about the chain used to pull the dragon out, it's really not a plot hole. We saw the White Walker takeover of Hardhome in a previous season, and this was a former wildling settlement - a full town and harbor, complete will chain potential. We do not know how much time passed between the dragon dying and being retrieved, but regardless the action probably took place near enough to Hardhome.
See http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Hardhome "Hardhome sits on a sheltered bay and has natural harbour deep enough for the biggest ships afloat. Wood and stone are plentiful near there. The waters teem with fish, and there are colonies of seals and sea cows close at hand. A great cliff looms above the settlement, pocked with cave mouths."
See http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Hardhome "Hardhome sits on a sheltered bay and has natural harbour deep enough for the biggest ships afloat. Wood and stone are plentiful near there. The waters teem with fish, and there are colonies of seals and sea cows close at hand. A great cliff looms above the settlement, pocked with cave mouths."
4
I seem to recall that at the time Cersei told Littlefinger that "power is power" in response to his claim that knowledge is power, she also said that when one plays the game of thrones, one wins or dies. Clearly, she is willing to accept either outcome, a factor that both her brothers seem to lack in their understanding, or lack of understanding, in their relationships to her.
Tyrion is conflicted and cannot loosen his ties as a Lannister. Cersei might be pregnant, but the father would be Euron with Jamie used to play the fool and relegated to his true usefulness. Cersie remains the only clear monarch. although she is paranoid - and for good reason. Tyrion has made Dany into a patsy. All her accurate insights on how to conquer and rule were blunted by his nonsensical ideas about making the world a better place.
Jon and Jamie are cut from the same mold: vice is nice, but incest is best. Lol.
Tyrion is conflicted and cannot loosen his ties as a Lannister. Cersei might be pregnant, but the father would be Euron with Jamie used to play the fool and relegated to his true usefulness. Cersie remains the only clear monarch. although she is paranoid - and for good reason. Tyrion has made Dany into a patsy. All her accurate insights on how to conquer and rule were blunted by his nonsensical ideas about making the world a better place.
Jon and Jamie are cut from the same mold: vice is nice, but incest is best. Lol.
I was thinking that if the pregnancy is real that it is Euron's or someone else's--not Jaime's--but someone dark-haired so we get the parallel with Robert's bastards vs Cersei's children.
I predict wedding bells for Queen Cersei and the Night King.
2
He is awfully powerful and has a dragon. I can see the attraction.
3
Please, for those of us who came in late to the series, a couple of questions;
Jon and Daenerys are contributing to the incest, but what exactly is their relationship? Siblings, cousins?
Also, both seem to have a claim to the Iron Throne. With all the treachery and killing and interbreeding going on, is Jon's claim stronger and why?
I'd appreciate any clarity you can bring.
Jon and Daenerys are contributing to the incest, but what exactly is their relationship? Siblings, cousins?
Also, both seem to have a claim to the Iron Throne. With all the treachery and killing and interbreeding going on, is Jon's claim stronger and why?
I'd appreciate any clarity you can bring.
1
Aunt and nephew, but they are around the same age (Jon is actually 9 mos to 1 year older than Daenerys) and never knew the man who connects them (Rhaegar -- Dany's older brother by 25 years and Jon's true father, killed before either was born) or each other. So they really are total strangers who are almost the exact same age in a world where cousins and uncles/nieces regularly wed to keep property and talents (like dragon riding) in the family.
2
Yes, Jon's claim to the Iron Throne is stronger.
Inheritance seems to be "male preference primogeniture" -- succession runs through each brother (and his heirs) in turn, and only then would a sister inherit. Since Jon is the legitimate son of one of Daenerys' brothers, he is higher in the line of succession than she is.
Inheritance seems to be "male preference primogeniture" -- succession runs through each brother (and his heirs) in turn, and only then would a sister inherit. Since Jon is the legitimate son of one of Daenerys' brothers, he is higher in the line of succession than she is.
1
Jon is Dany's nephew. They don't know they are related, which is why the monologue played over their sex scene (I think this was a good decision -- it makes sure the scene is not played for eroticism).
2
Ugh. More GOT nuisance news.
All that is going on in the world and GOT is trending #1 on NYT.
Depressing.
All that is going on in the world and GOT is trending #1 on NYT.
Depressing.
Have you SEEN what is going on in the world? A bit of escapism is more welcome now than ever.
19
Rhaegar looked too much like his annoying brother. Weird casting.
10
I was thinking the same thing.
Totally agree -- he was supposed to be really handsome and magnetic (even Cersei had a crush on him!). Viserys is an annoying, scrawny teenager in the books, but Rhaegar at the time of the rebellion is around 24 years old and a famous warrior!
(he was naturally a bookworm personality though -- the books tell us he was obsessed with the Prince Who Was Promised prophecy and thought he was that Prince, so he took up arms training and worked really hard to become a warrior in just a few years before being killed by Robert)
(he was naturally a bookworm personality though -- the books tell us he was obsessed with the Prince Who Was Promised prophecy and thought he was that Prince, so he took up arms training and worked really hard to become a warrior in just a few years before being killed by Robert)
2
Wait ... two brothers who look like each other?? Yeah, that's weird casting all right. *eye roll*
2
Something I can't reconcile: Why wouldn't Dany take a few minutes during the summit meeting to arrest Cersei for treason, THEN go get the white walkers as the new queen of Westeros? It's quite clear that her armies could mow down the Lannisters without any difficulty - the one thing preventing her from doing that up to this point is that thousands of innocent townspeople would die. But the armies were amassed at during the summit meeting, taking the concern for innocent lives out of the equation. The iron throne was RIGHT THERE for the taking. The super-objective is the war against the white walkers, I get it, but she could have taken a few minutes to become queen first. That makes no sense....
1
Dany has already seen via the Tarlys that some of Cersei's army will not fight for Dany's cause, they pick death instead. Dany hoped to have the Lannister armies and allies alongside her own for the fight against the dead - need a lot of living soliders to fight the 100K dead. Cersei knew this, and her ruse to go along with it and then back out for her own goals sets Cersei up for a two-pronged attack in Season 8, namely having to fight both Dany's Dothraki and Dragons and also fight any White Walkers who get to Westeros. Jon showed Cersei what kills the zombies - fire and dragon glass. We know that Cersei has a store of greenfire somewhere, but that also levels buildings. We also know that Dany sits on the dragon glass mines. So expect to see Cersei surrounded in Season 8, and that she goes out with a bang.
2
Danerys asked for a parlay. Agreeing to a parlay is agreeing to a temporary truce while it's all being hashed out. Cersi might not adhere to that but her opponents would.
Yes, I understand what a parlay is. I just don't understand why Dany would let Cersei walk away from it (the first time she walked away, that is). Cersei did not submit to the temporary truce, so in what logical universe would Dany not say, "You had your chance to be reasonable and you blew it. Arrest her for treason and lock her and her people up until I get back from the North"? Cersei has no power or leverage in this situation. It's just the writers ignoring logic in service of a more spectacular plot. I like the show, but it's weakened when you can see the gears of fan/plot service laid bare like that.
The way I relate to the Game of Thrones mythology is the same way I relate to the Stars Wars mythology. Light (The Force) vs Darkness (The Dark Side) (The Army of the Dead)
Season 7 concluded with the the Army of the Dead getting their version the Death Star in Viserion and deploying it to destroy the Wall and going on the offensive.
We can certainly expect an epic battle coming between the forces of Light and the forces of Darkness. The question in my mind is how will the looming battle be resolved and will the forces of Darkness be allowed to triumph?
Cinema is always an expression of the culture in which it arises. And, with Darkness' recent winning steak in the USA, I hope that the producers of the show will give us a more nuanced outcome.
I the meantime, I will continue to watch and enjoy the best TV show night now, till I am thoroughly versed in Game of Thrones mythology.
Season 7 concluded with the the Army of the Dead getting their version the Death Star in Viserion and deploying it to destroy the Wall and going on the offensive.
We can certainly expect an epic battle coming between the forces of Light and the forces of Darkness. The question in my mind is how will the looming battle be resolved and will the forces of Darkness be allowed to triumph?
Cinema is always an expression of the culture in which it arises. And, with Darkness' recent winning steak in the USA, I hope that the producers of the show will give us a more nuanced outcome.
I the meantime, I will continue to watch and enjoy the best TV show night now, till I am thoroughly versed in Game of Thrones mythology.
3
Yes, it is all about Trump -- even though the series started in 1996 --- and the last volume published in 2011 -- long before Trump was a blip on the political horizon.
1
Of course it is. Timelines are irrelevant as you have come to learn from your own hero. He is very obviously a child of darkness and a person with no regard for any rules established by the Gods or the Universe. If that is not obvious to you by now, I don't know what is. There is no question in my mind that when the Trump mythology is written by future historians, it will unequivocally be a Dark mythology from a very perilous period in our lives.
1
I seems as if you are with the Army of the Dead and that would be very emblematic of the times we live in. You made my point. I am talking mythology in cinema and you think that it is real.
Was the expedition beyond the wall a setup by the Night King to obtain an ice dragon? Can the Night King "see all of time" like the Three-eyed Raven?
Bran == 3-eyed raven == night king
4
I'm a little saddened that as the show has devolved into fan fiction, the comments from the fans (i.e., this group) have also become less interesting. There just isn't as much meat for us to chew on as there used to be.
2
It's really too bad they couldn't have ended the show last night. It would have been better to do it now than wait. With the war coming, it is quite possible there won't be a chance next year.
1
Purrsonally I am still waiting for George R.R. Martin to write the rest of the series. There have been re-writes all along in the tv series which allow for a schmaltzy all together again Hollywood style ending a la Westeros. Not so the books where, among other differences, Brienne is hung by Catelyn Stark's crew and never makes it to Winterfell, Sansa never marries a Bolton, and Jon's parentage has not been revealed. The producers are masters at staging the novel but it is the creation of story line and character by the novelist that drives the tv show. With the novels, these editors/producers are a tad or two less compelling.
2
In A Feast for Crows Brienne's fate at the time of her hanging is left unclear as she shouted a word and her death is unconfirmed. According to GRRM she shouted "sword" at the last second, choosing to live and accept the task of killing Jaime instead of death for herself (and Pod i presume). Then she shows up again in A Dance of Dragons.
I don't think GRRM ever intends to finish the series; he bit off more than he could chew, which is why it expanded from a trilogy to six volumes and now 7 planned....and the last two very weak tea. Once HBO bought the rights, and GRRM got very, very rich off this....the dude is 69, he has no real motivation to EVER finish. That is why he gave the show's producers an outline of where things were going, and let them fill in what they wanted.
Now GRRM has literally NO motivation, financial or otherwise, to finish the books -- anything he writes will be compared to the TV series, which is of course, far more visual and in the public imagination.
Now GRRM has literally NO motivation, financial or otherwise, to finish the books -- anything he writes will be compared to the TV series, which is of course, far more visual and in the public imagination.
4
Dance with Dragons and Feast for Crows followed the same period of time, just focusing on different characters. That would explain why she showed up in that book.
One plot issue that's still a hangup for me is what the Night King's original plan was to deal with the wall. We're told that the wall has kept him back for thousands of years, and there's no indication that it wouldn't have kept out the undead horde on their own. Obviously the zombie dragon took care of that, but there's no way the Night King could have possibly counted on a dragon showing up north of the wall for the first time in millennia. If not for that freak chance, would he have just marched up to the wall and sat there waiting for something to happen?
4
I think the Night King knew that Daenerys would come save Jon. I think the Night King is a very good strategist. He rides the dragon like he was born to it.
2
Yes exactly. If Jon Snow had never lived, Westeros would have been saved. This is a killer for me. Everything he has done has led to the ultimate thing he wanted to prevent. A reasonable plot would have him take his own life when he finds out.
I think he planned to use the same plan Mance did--Giants and Chains on the entrances/exits the Night Watch use. That accounts for the giant chains to get the Dragon, too.
Or he went to Eastwatch because zombies may not be able to swim well, but they can float--float enough of them, and you get a path around Eastwatch.
Or he went to Eastwatch because zombies may not be able to swim well, but they can float--float enough of them, and you get a path around Eastwatch.
Good heavens fans. Marriage between first cousins is perfectly legal in many, many places today. This matters not one bit. However, there may be some conflict between the two about the throne. Jon does not like to rule, Denerys does does. This is all a tempest in a teacup compared to White Walkers.
2
They're not first cousins. He is the son of her brother - that makes her his aunt.
2
They're not first cousins. It's an Aunt-Nephew relationship.
1
- I wish Snow & Danerys would be allowed more than one facial expression.
- I wish the lessons of partisanship, drone-dragons (they are bad when the bad guys get one) and the analogy of The Dead as fascists made a difference in our real world !
- I wish the lessons of partisanship, drone-dragons (they are bad when the bad guys get one) and the analogy of The Dead as fascists made a difference in our real world !
6
This show is the BEST and it would be nice if reviewers stopped nit picking things just to contrive something to write about. People complained before that it was going to slow. Now the complaint is that it moves too fast. How about just enjoying it?!! Great job to all involved in producing this show. Congratulations! Season 7 was amazing and I have spent tbe past 7 Sundays happy in anticipation of the next episode.
8
I am not a Jon-Dany shipper because 1) gross and 2) I do not want Dany turning into a wide-eyed "what-ever-you-say" Jon type of gal. She's the one who has been breaking the wheel. Who cares who the "true" heir to the throne is? I thought this whole series was about undoing that whole philosophy.
But if Jon is a Targaryen, that means Sansa is Queen of the North, if there is a North left.
The group project by the Magnificent Seven deserved an A+. "You can destroy them by burning them, using Dragon Glass..." Very well done in front of Cersei, the meanest teacher ever.
I don't want to get too into the weird rituals of Westeros but castration is not removal of the entire jewel collection, just some of them. Otherwise there would be some serious issues.
But if Jon is a Targaryen, that means Sansa is Queen of the North, if there is a North left.
The group project by the Magnificent Seven deserved an A+. "You can destroy them by burning them, using Dragon Glass..." Very well done in front of Cersei, the meanest teacher ever.
I don't want to get too into the weird rituals of Westeros but castration is not removal of the entire jewel collection, just some of them. Otherwise there would be some serious issues.
1
Ooh, excellent point about Sansa becoming Queen of the North if Jon is taken out of the succession. I think the bannermen would vote for her. She's tough now.
If she were Queen of the North, who would she choose for her husband? Sansa's still Sansa - she won't want to be single. Here's a random speculation: of all her proposed romantic pairings, only one has been with a decent guy: Tyrion. He's smart and he cared for her, and potentially they are still technically married. Sansa was very superficial for a long time (remember her crush on Loris?) so choosing the imp would show that she has matured and is looking for a real partner to rule together.
I don't imagine it will happen, but I liked speculating about it. And Tyrion needs a girl, one who deserves him.
If she were Queen of the North, who would she choose for her husband? Sansa's still Sansa - she won't want to be single. Here's a random speculation: of all her proposed romantic pairings, only one has been with a decent guy: Tyrion. He's smart and he cared for her, and potentially they are still technically married. Sansa was very superficial for a long time (remember her crush on Loris?) so choosing the imp would show that she has matured and is looking for a real partner to rule together.
I don't imagine it will happen, but I liked speculating about it. And Tyrion needs a girl, one who deserves him.
2
Jon's elevation to King in the North was more a matter of acclamation than inheritance.
Ned Stark was not the King in the North. He was the Lord of Winterfell and Sansa has inherited that position. Sansa does not become "Queen in the North" just because Jon is a Targaryen.
I do agree though, and wondered myself whether Sansa and Tyrion would end up married (assuming that the world doesn't simply become the domain of the Night King). Another possible husband for Sansa -- Jaime.
Ned Stark was not the King in the North. He was the Lord of Winterfell and Sansa has inherited that position. Sansa does not become "Queen in the North" just because Jon is a Targaryen.
I do agree though, and wondered myself whether Sansa and Tyrion would end up married (assuming that the world doesn't simply become the domain of the Night King). Another possible husband for Sansa -- Jaime.
1
I like it! I'm now on Team Tyrnsa!
1
"until he has his hands around her throat" Not really possible anatomically. I assume you were just making sure we were paying attention:)
3
I am now convinced that Jon's true biological father is Robert Barathian. We know we can't fully trust Bran (i.e. Sam's nudging him to look around in the past to discover the marriage. What else has he missed?) and we know that Robert boldly lied about the kidnapping/rape, started a war based on false pretenses, and didn't exactly respect women. So why was Lyanna locked away in a guarded tower? To protect her and her child from Robert. Theory: Robert raped her, Lyanna confided in Rhaegar, Rhaegar promised to raise her child as his own and marry her to save her the shame of having a child out of wedlock and save her child from the shame of being a bastard. This frees Jon to be with Dani without incest, unites his two strong/powerful family lines with hers as they become King and Queen, and will be the big WOW moment in the final season. Just a thought . . .
6
But that means 2 characters are Baratheon sons, Jon and Gendry. I also wondered if Jon was a Baratheon, but the season 7 finale put him firmly down as a Targaryen.
1
Umm, nope. You forgot the backstory between Rhaegar and Lyanna -- look up the Tourney at Harrenhal and the Knight of the Laughing Tree. It clearly sets up an actual romance between Rhaegar and Lyanna (he crowned her his Queen of Love and Beauty even over his own wife, Elia Martell, who was sitting right there). Robert didn't necessarily lie - he didn't know that Rhaegar divorced Elia and secretly married Lyana or that he was obsessed with a prophecy. Robert was betrothed to Lyanna and saw her as his property, so he jumped to conclusions.
Obviously Lyanna was in the Tower of Joy and guarded by the Kingsguard because by that point Robert had murdered Rhaegar and she was about to give birth to his child, a new heir to the throne being born in the middle of a rebellion and blood of a man Robert hated. The child would have been killed.
No way would Rhaegar have made such promises to some northern lady he didn't know while married to Elia Martell, with two children by her. This theory would still make Jon a product of rape and a bastard -- I don't see how that's better.
Obviously Lyanna was in the Tower of Joy and guarded by the Kingsguard because by that point Robert had murdered Rhaegar and she was about to give birth to his child, a new heir to the throne being born in the middle of a rebellion and blood of a man Robert hated. The child would have been killed.
No way would Rhaegar have made such promises to some northern lady he didn't know while married to Elia Martell, with two children by her. This theory would still make Jon a product of rape and a bastard -- I don't see how that's better.
1
I really liked this season recap, and I think that it brings up a good point that I have not seen highlighted in many other GoT analyses. The analysis of Tyrion "Why, for example, has the formerly shrewd and insightful Tyrion become a dunderhead since he joined up with Daenerys... his constant underestimating this season of Cersei, the person he knows better than perhaps anyone, rings false". This aspect drove me crazy this season, because it did not seem like Tyrion gave one piece of good advice this season. Worse yet, it seemed like neither him nor Daenerys could learn from their early mistakes. After "Spoils of War" it seemed pretty clear that they could end the war in a day, maybe two, by taking King's Landing. Why would they not do this right away so that they could then focus on the real threat?
The reason they gave in the show was that Daenerys does not want to rule over "ashes", but that made no sense to me given that she would only need to kill Lannister soldiers and Cersei to end the war. Yes, there would be some civilian casualties, but it's not like she would have to burn any parts of King's landing besides the wall and the Red Keep, neither of which have civilians in them. After winning the war, then she could rule as she saw fit, including making the world a "better place".
The final three episodes rang false to me, as obviously Cersei would never go along with helping them. Getting a wight to bring south made no sense from the start, and was lazy writing.
The reason they gave in the show was that Daenerys does not want to rule over "ashes", but that made no sense to me given that she would only need to kill Lannister soldiers and Cersei to end the war. Yes, there would be some civilian casualties, but it's not like she would have to burn any parts of King's landing besides the wall and the Red Keep, neither of which have civilians in them. After winning the war, then she could rule as she saw fit, including making the world a "better place".
The final three episodes rang false to me, as obviously Cersei would never go along with helping them. Getting a wight to bring south made no sense from the start, and was lazy writing.
5
Jeremy, your recaps are my Monday morning pick-me-up. Months without them, and the dragons, will be a boon to coffee companies and pharmaceutical manufacturers.
A few questions:
1) Will IKEA be outfitting the Unsullied and Dothraki like they did the Free Folk?
2) Will Ned's head, Rickon and Lyanna become wights, since they lie entombed at Winterfell?
3) Where are Ghost and Nymeria?
A few questions:
1) Will IKEA be outfitting the Unsullied and Dothraki like they did the Free Folk?
2) Will Ned's head, Rickon and Lyanna become wights, since they lie entombed at Winterfell?
3) Where are Ghost and Nymeria?
5
Wasn't ghost killed at the Wall? Nymeria is out there somewhere with her pack.
2
No, Ghost was at the Battle of the Bastards and is likely somewhere in Winterfell. They just didn't have the CGI budget for a lot of direwolves AND dragons.
2
Really? Ghost died? I must have blocked that. So sad.
My biggest regret of all is Cersei's very ,very bad , horrible wig.
28
Lena Headey says the cast and crew refer to it as The Turnip.
Dany grew up expecting to marry her brother, because that's what Targaryens do. If anything, learning that Jon is her nephew will be a relief so she *can* marry and rule with him. Jon might need a minute to get over the ick-factor, but she won't. Her motivation has always been to restore the throne to its rightful ruler, so hooking up with him shouldn't be a threat since it will ultimately (and conveniently) help her achieve her goal.
She was told she would never bear a *living* child, so unless she breaks that curse, maybe she'll pop out an undead prince that will mature at Twilight-saga-speed in time to defeat the Night King in the series finale.
She was told she would never bear a *living* child, so unless she breaks that curse, maybe she'll pop out an undead prince that will mature at Twilight-saga-speed in time to defeat the Night King in the series finale.
2
It will be that Dany is not who we think she is and that will save the incestuous day. Or maybe she will give birth to a little dragon--ouch--coming out! Who is (was) the father of dragons? Will Dany kill Viserion with a dragonglass arrow?
Could the 'dead' win--as in real life? So far once you're dead, you'er dead.
Good show. Look forward to another story to enjoy in my dotage. Love live The Red Wedding!
Could the 'dead' win--as in real life? So far once you're dead, you'er dead.
Good show. Look forward to another story to enjoy in my dotage. Love live The Red Wedding!
Come on! That little person - Peter Jugdish is a smoooooth talker.
I'm almost positive if we sent him to North Korea our difficulties would be resolved over several gallons of Cabernet Sauvignon and some Triscuits and cheese... (Stilton).
I've told you this time and time again on this forum...Peter Jugdish is the finest diplomat on our planet. I think his last name is Jugdish...
I'm almost positive if we sent him to North Korea our difficulties would be resolved over several gallons of Cabernet Sauvignon and some Triscuits and cheese... (Stilton).
I've told you this time and time again on this forum...Peter Jugdish is the finest diplomat on our planet. I think his last name is Jugdish...
2
It's Dinklage.
4
Err, Petyr Baelish?
Oh, that's right - Elaine Benes called Jerry - "Jugdish" at the O'Henry heiresses wedding in India --- Jugdish is Jerry in India.
"Master of the house...and so on.
"Master of the house...and so on.
First, the Arya & Sansa "feud" was contrived to fool Little Finger. How are people still not grasping that? Please give these two strong, intelligent female characters some credit. Tyrion's continual bad strategizing is puzzling. Though he's loyal to Dany he struggles with his history of being a Lannister, and trying to find the best options while balancing the two has proven unworkable. Now that Jaime will be on their side there is nothing to hold Tryion back from helping plot Cercei's destruction. Prediction: He won't need to. Arya wears LF's face & kills Cercei, while the Hound kills the Mountain (Arya & Hound ride together again!) Arya then wears Cercei's face & orders Golden Company to join the fight against the dead. Tyrion will redeem himself by suggesting evacuating the northerners to the south - Highgarden? They lure the white walkers / dead army to King's Landing & blow them all up with all the wildfire that's spread around the city. Bran / 3 Eyed Raven had been whispering to King Aerys to put it all over (drove him mad in the process) - "burn them all!" - aka Hodor. Must be a bigger plot reason for that beyond Cercei's blowing up the sept. Tyrion used wildfire successfully against Stannis' army, so he's experienced with it.
6
I like your thinking, Rita!
How sure are we that Tyrion is actually 100% loyal to Daenerys though? In the books, both he and Varys are supporting Aegon (whether he's an imposter/Blackfyre or the real Aegon Targaryen saved from infant head bashing). Tyrion only sort of meets her (nothing like acting as her hand, or at least not yet) and is mostly running around Essos trying to escape various situations and run-ins with sellsword groups.
I for one find it funny how Jeremy Egner is so disgusted with the fact that they're aunt and nephew when Aegon the conqueror had 2 SISTER wives. If you read the books and were ok with that I don't see what the problem is now. It's kind of silly really because it's not like they grew up together knowing this and operating under a traditional family dynamic like Cersei and Jaime. If I found out tomorrow that my wife and I were related, oh well, the feelings are there already and we are waaaay past the point of no return, so no, I wouldn't give a damn. It has already been done. Why should Aegon (Jon) and Dany be any different? Besides, the Targaryens were known to in-breed to maintain the purity of their blood-line so what gives? I think you are writing articles for the wrong show/novel with these morality comments given the content of the story. Just my 2 cents.
10
And to add to that, Dany's parents were also brother and sister, and it was long assumed (in the GOT world) that Dany was to marry her brother, Viserys. As far as Targaryean relationships go, aunt/nephew is about as unrelated as they get.
5
Has Jeremy been drinking toasts to Aegon and his sister-wives? I've missed it if so.
A lot of this show is about the evolution of Westeros from nastier practices to more enlightened ones. So, ending slavery = good. Not being a pirate = good. As viewers, we root for the characters and the cultures to move in directions we feel are more ethical.
A huge theme of the first season was Cersei and Jaime trying to keep their incest secret, to the extent they threw a boy out a window. Ned warns Cersei to take her children away because the revelation of their birth would endanger them. Cersei's walk of shame was due to the news that she had slept with her cousin. Incest is indeed loaded in Westeros. Remember, even when Robert was long dead, Jaime's first inclination earlier this season was to hide when he was in Cersei's bed and a servant came to the door.
A lot of this show is about the evolution of Westeros from nastier practices to more enlightened ones. So, ending slavery = good. Not being a pirate = good. As viewers, we root for the characters and the cultures to move in directions we feel are more ethical.
A huge theme of the first season was Cersei and Jaime trying to keep their incest secret, to the extent they threw a boy out a window. Ned warns Cersei to take her children away because the revelation of their birth would endanger them. Cersei's walk of shame was due to the news that she had slept with her cousin. Incest is indeed loaded in Westeros. Remember, even when Robert was long dead, Jaime's first inclination earlier this season was to hide when he was in Cersei's bed and a servant came to the door.
The thing is the issue of Jaime and Cersei has a far more important issue connected to it than the incest. Jaime could have been anyone, and they would still have had to work to hide the relationship. Sleeping with your monarch's spouse is HIGH TREASON--punishable by death for BOTH partners. And, the Lannister twins demonstrate the main reason for that classification--in a time/land when the throne is passed on by blood inheritance, you have to be sure the children the queen gives birth came from the king. Cersei went out of her way to make sure she never had a living child by Robert--her sad tale of losing a dark-haired boy is a weapon used to gain sympathy from others; she didn't WANT Robert's child and as I read the books, it seemed clear to me she did a Medea and killed the boy rather than raise Robert's child. That the relationship was incestuous is just another shade of creepy.
1
Only three characters have retained their original flavor - Cercei, Arya and Bronn. Sad to see Lord Baelish dead no matter how much he deserved it. He was a much better villain than Euron who seems forced and striving/struggling to step into the shoes of Joffrey and Ramsey the greatest of the show villains. Jon/Aegon Snow/Sand/Stark/Targaryen will make a bad king but a good hero. Rulers need honesty buy also guile and cunning. Tyrion needs to go back to drinking and whoring to get back his mojo. He's like Samson with his hair right now. The Bran reveals were like no reveal and felt the most faked. We all knew anyway.
6
It was a fun season. I'm disappointed that Jon still does not know who his real parents are and I don't like the romance with Daenerys. I thought for sure that the wine Tyrion drank was spiked with something. Maybe to turn him into a traitor and into Cersai's spy. Maybe that's why he was lurking outside of the bedchambers.
1
See, I was thinking he intended to poison Cersei with the wine. . . oh well.
I thought that season 7 was great. I'm one of those annoying book fans who always complains about "such and such happened in the books, but the show ruined it by having the character do such and such."
But S7 was the first season I've genuinely enjoyed in a few years. The plot is now so detached from the books that it is effectively a different story, as if someone had made an alternate version of Return of the Jedi where Han turns out to be Leia's brother and Luke gets married to Chewy. It's a completely different story bow, but still awesome in its own way.
Yeah there are some plot points that seem a bit contrived, but this is just TV at the end of the day, and as they have no real source material to work with, I think they are doing a damn good job. In my opinion, GOT has reclaimed the "throne" of Best Show on TV with this season.
But S7 was the first season I've genuinely enjoyed in a few years. The plot is now so detached from the books that it is effectively a different story, as if someone had made an alternate version of Return of the Jedi where Han turns out to be Leia's brother and Luke gets married to Chewy. It's a completely different story bow, but still awesome in its own way.
Yeah there are some plot points that seem a bit contrived, but this is just TV at the end of the day, and as they have no real source material to work with, I think they are doing a damn good job. In my opinion, GOT has reclaimed the "throne" of Best Show on TV with this season.
4
(Yawn) One of the most predictable finales I've ever seen. At some point last week I doubted my theory about the Sansa/Arya so called rivalry, but they quickly ended when at the conclusion of Sansa and Littlefinger's game of pretend someone's motives, Sansa said that Arya's was to be Lady of Winterfell. Arya a lady? After that it was only a matter of TV minutes before Littlefinger would be dead. I think that Cersei is indeed pregnant HOWEVER not with Jaime's child, but Euron's. Like some of you, I was hoping (praying?) that Dany/Jon would not happen. Unfortunately, the show no longer makes any sense and it did. So let's start a new world with an incestuous relationship. Funny that I was not as repulsed by Sansa's rape as I was last night by Jon/Dany's bedding. And is it just me, or was that the most boring sex scene ever witnessed in GoT? Predictably, Dany will get pregnant and, yes, she will die to reunite with her beloved. Remember the prophecy: “When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child." The sun is probably an allusion to power moving to Westeros, the seas will freeze (much was made of Old Town and islands being safe from the dead), the Wall was blown, Dany is pregnant ... guess who's coming back? Always loved Khal Drogo.
1
I thought it was a great episode and sets us up beautifully for next season. A few thoughts:
-- Loved the meeting at the Dragon Pit, when main characters from across the seasons all gathered together for a tense meeting. Other than the Stark sisters and Littlefinger, everyone was there.
-- While we're more used to the dragons by this point, they make a hell of a first impression. Smart of Dany to arrive via dragon. She's always been a master of presentation. I noticed, though, that Cersei made sure to act unimpressed. She alone did not stand when the dragon arrived. And her first comment to Dany was to complain about how long they had been waiting. Overall, I liked how both women positioned themselves throughout their interactions. A reminder that both are queens because they have sought the role and both intend to maintain it.
-- I also appreciate the fact that Cersei remains committed to the game of thrones rather than existential threats. Frankly, most of us are here for the clash of personalities. That is and remains Cersei's world. Even if she believes in monsters, she plans that the monsters devour each other. Tywin would think the same way.
-- The wight reveal went better than I'd imagined. Made Jon's plan 1% less stupid.
-- I liked how everyone, without exception, was annoyed at Jon's honorable declaration at the Dragon Pit. Though it won him the girl and helped Theon find his backbone, so I guess it turned out OK.
-- Loved the meeting at the Dragon Pit, when main characters from across the seasons all gathered together for a tense meeting. Other than the Stark sisters and Littlefinger, everyone was there.
-- While we're more used to the dragons by this point, they make a hell of a first impression. Smart of Dany to arrive via dragon. She's always been a master of presentation. I noticed, though, that Cersei made sure to act unimpressed. She alone did not stand when the dragon arrived. And her first comment to Dany was to complain about how long they had been waiting. Overall, I liked how both women positioned themselves throughout their interactions. A reminder that both are queens because they have sought the role and both intend to maintain it.
-- I also appreciate the fact that Cersei remains committed to the game of thrones rather than existential threats. Frankly, most of us are here for the clash of personalities. That is and remains Cersei's world. Even if she believes in monsters, she plans that the monsters devour each other. Tywin would think the same way.
-- The wight reveal went better than I'd imagined. Made Jon's plan 1% less stupid.
-- I liked how everyone, without exception, was annoyed at Jon's honorable declaration at the Dragon Pit. Though it won him the girl and helped Theon find his backbone, so I guess it turned out OK.
5
Didn't love the season. The Good: Olenna going out like a badass; Jaime's arc; Sansa's arc; Tormund, The Hound, Beric; always Bronn and Davos; Alfie Allen's acting; dragons; ice dragon; and Littlefinger finally going down. The Bad: just about everything else, especially the Jon/Danaerys thing which was not only ick but boring, predictable and lacking any serious chemistry between the actors; and just ridiculous stuff like where did the white walkers get that industrial-sized chain last week?
2
Yeah, ridiculous, not like there was an entire episode called Hardhome that addressed the old wildling/freefolk village north of the wall that used to have an entire harbor full of ships and trading posts to Essos before it was mysteriously destroyed and all inhabitants were killed. No, not like there would be ship-sized chains and other materials left at Hardhome up in the north near the battle scene.
2
Uh huh. And the wights who won't go in water somehow got these chains around a dragon in water.
I'm curious how much foreshadowing one can read into the music. For instance, they played a variant of "Light of the Seven" when Jaime left King's Landing. Was that deliberate? They could have used something else.
3
It was absolutely deliberate, I just hope it wasn't there simply to have us on.
The Jon/Dany thing was always intended to break the audience's heart. And when George RR Martin sets out to break your heart, it gets broken.
3
This show has become a parody of itself.
Don't understand why this season had to be compressed into 7 episodes when most seasons were, what... 11? 10? I'm guessing too many special effects and HBO not wanting to spend too much money or run out of time? But they could have just extended the story to an additional 2 or 3 seasons (although maybe the actors would revolt, so maybe no...). And next season is only 6 episodes! Wah!
1
"least satisfying storytelling of the show’s run" I disagree. I feel the narrative has finally attained focus and finally promises some resolution like a long-winded saga should. We've had enough "character development" and rambling plot lines. Last season winnowed characters, this season consolidates. Without it I would continue to wonder if the writers actually had an overall vision.
7
The Night King is a very, very effective executive.
7
He is the most focused resourceful leader and deserves to win. Team Night King!
4
The villains always have the most élan vital.
This episode been working its way into pysche all morning. Of course we will mourn the wall. But how can there really be peace when we haven't made our peace with our undead? The path towards truth and reconciliation in the seven kingdoms will obviously be a lot longer than what a final season will be able to cover; but I look forward to seeing how the showrunners might set that process in motion.
4
Thank you for this review - I still think it was awesome - I'm glad its moving along for one, if people would just look at the last two seasons as one big season, then these pacing issues fall a little by the way side.
And its still a fabulous romp.
And its still a fabulous romp.
9
Had anyone else noticed inconsistency with the size of The Mountain? Maybe I'm wrong, but when Cersei and Sir Gregor were leaving her quarters, he looked to be about 8 feet tall. Then when he was confronted by The Hound in the Dragon Pit, it looked like he was only about an inch taller than his brother. And I know the Hound is another big guy, but I don't recall him ever been shown as a monster like Gregor is.
It all reminded me of King Kong.
It all reminded me of King Kong.
4
https://www.the-mainboard.com/index.php?threads/pretty-cool-height-refer...
it doesn't always work out. jon is supposed to be 5'9 but he's not much taller than 5'3 dany.
it doesn't always work out. jon is supposed to be 5'9 but he's not much taller than 5'3 dany.
Kit Harrington is 5' 7".
Yes, I totally noticed. And I was confused. The Hound isn't portrayed as a giant. Maybe it was on purpose though because they are setting up a final Clegane confrontation, and it would not be believable if the Hound was half the size of The Mountain?
Forget the ravens: How far away was that arena meeting place from Cersei's room at the Red Keep, presumably up at the very top of King's Landing? Because Tyrion had to hoof it all the way up there, and all the way back (with, quite frankly, a shorter than average stride) while Daenerys, Jon, and pretty much everyone else were just sitting around in the Westoros sun, totally exposed, waiting. Did they at least pack a lunch?
4
Why did they have to pair off at all? How would we ever know that Jon Snow was sitting on a gold mine. What a beautiful thing to behold. Possibly the best part of the finale for some of us who appreciate a good derriere.
15
It was a very very good bottom, up!
Jon was sitting on a gold mine if you catch my drift here, his Aunt's gold mine! Now, that's wild.
I loved Season 7, and the finale's effort to tie up so many issues. We will all hate to see this end next season, but I suspect we will all look forward to the endless possibilities. Perhaps the King of Dead will kill Cersei to make her his queen. She will ride in on the dead dragon to do battle with Daenerys while nephew lover Jon and Jamie lead the forces below. Who knows, let's just not end the series with the battle ongoing and no resolution. While no resolution will satisfy all of us, no resolution will disappoint all of us.
1
All these partial resolutions were certainly more satisfying than leaving us with another maybe-dead Stark. Thank the Seven!
Cersei's army is vastly outnumbered and outgunned (okay, out-arakhed). Not just the dragons. I was surprised by the degree to which the Dothraki and the Unsullied have awed the formerly-finest swordsman of Westeros, Jaime Lannister.
We should further recall the missing pieces of the Dornish army and whatever the greatest fighter in the world, Daario Naharis, might have left to offer. He still commands an army in Mereen, I believe. They would be useful after the decimation up north.
Theon and/or Yarra will not let Euron return with what Cersei wants.
Cersei may be hoping for her enemies to be killed off while she buys friends, but I'm still hoping that she be the source of her own undoing.
Perhaps her own people turn on her, or stand down as the enemy advances, or that thing that dark-maester Qyburn put inside her kills her as it comes out, much like Tyrion "killed" her mother. Maybe the prophecy is fulfilled when a zombie Jaime comes and eats her.
At this point, however it goes down, her death will be poetic Justice.
Finally, while we suspect Jaime has finally gone good, Bronn's sneaking off with Podrick should not go unnoticed. He either remains an inside sword at King's Landing or defects again, but he is surely returning to Tyrion's service, and not for love of gold.
Everybody loves a hero. Even George R.R. Martin.
Cersei's army is vastly outnumbered and outgunned (okay, out-arakhed). Not just the dragons. I was surprised by the degree to which the Dothraki and the Unsullied have awed the formerly-finest swordsman of Westeros, Jaime Lannister.
We should further recall the missing pieces of the Dornish army and whatever the greatest fighter in the world, Daario Naharis, might have left to offer. He still commands an army in Mereen, I believe. They would be useful after the decimation up north.
Theon and/or Yarra will not let Euron return with what Cersei wants.
Cersei may be hoping for her enemies to be killed off while she buys friends, but I'm still hoping that she be the source of her own undoing.
Perhaps her own people turn on her, or stand down as the enemy advances, or that thing that dark-maester Qyburn put inside her kills her as it comes out, much like Tyrion "killed" her mother. Maybe the prophecy is fulfilled when a zombie Jaime comes and eats her.
At this point, however it goes down, her death will be poetic Justice.
Finally, while we suspect Jaime has finally gone good, Bronn's sneaking off with Podrick should not go unnoticed. He either remains an inside sword at King's Landing or defects again, but he is surely returning to Tyrion's service, and not for love of gold.
Everybody loves a hero. Even George R.R. Martin.
9
I also think that if Cersei is truly pregnant it will not be another golden haired child of Jaime's. It will either be Euron's or, more likely to me considering the scenes in which Qyburn left her room just before Jaime entered, a monstrous creation of Qyburn's.
". . . a zombie Jaime comes and eats her."
Everything about this phrase delights me.
Everything about this phrase delights me.
The white walkers should, by all rights, vanquish all in the Season 8 finale. Cleanse Westeros of the whole rotten lot of the living as it were. To paraphrase "what's-his-name" (the guy who has been resurrected so many times): Death always wins out in the end. Unless, of course, you have a red priestess following you around to resurrect you when it suits the plot line.
2
The shift in Game of Thrones had been extremely noticeable, away from its roots and greatest strength; character driven intricate and careful plotting, leading to surprises to now being just events and moments, spectacle only, with the characters only serving as ciphers to get the plot there.
Examples recently of this are numerous; the ridiculous, insane and idiotic reasoning behind a mission to bring back one dead walker, only there to create a scene for a dragon to die and join the dead army. The imbecilic mission of course turns out to be a complete waste of time, other than to provide that device and a mega scene of spectacle. Lazy, uninspired plotting also in the two sisters seemingly at war with each other, just a convenient setup to despatch Littlefinger with some element of surprise that was not organic in any way.
This sort of stuff never existed in earlier episodes, the plotting back then was intricate and constructed with great artistry, because that was the original author's unique skill. Adapting that was easier for the showrunners than creating it themselves. Because the show has now passed the books, the showrunners don't have the writing skill of the author that made the show what it was. If he is now telling them the sign posts to hit, an outline, well, that shows, because they get there but don't have his talent to shade in the nuances of getting there.
So it's reduced to grand spectacle-short-cuts now, the intricate tapestry all but gone.
Examples recently of this are numerous; the ridiculous, insane and idiotic reasoning behind a mission to bring back one dead walker, only there to create a scene for a dragon to die and join the dead army. The imbecilic mission of course turns out to be a complete waste of time, other than to provide that device and a mega scene of spectacle. Lazy, uninspired plotting also in the two sisters seemingly at war with each other, just a convenient setup to despatch Littlefinger with some element of surprise that was not organic in any way.
This sort of stuff never existed in earlier episodes, the plotting back then was intricate and constructed with great artistry, because that was the original author's unique skill. Adapting that was easier for the showrunners than creating it themselves. Because the show has now passed the books, the showrunners don't have the writing skill of the author that made the show what it was. If he is now telling them the sign posts to hit, an outline, well, that shows, because they get there but don't have his talent to shade in the nuances of getting there.
So it's reduced to grand spectacle-short-cuts now, the intricate tapestry all but gone.
18
And yet the biggest complaint prior to this season was that the pacing was too slow!
1
You forget that LF played sisters Catelyn and Lysa against each other, successfully, so LF trying to do the same with Sansa and Arya made perfect sense. Excellent plot development, IMO. Re: bringing back a dead wight, how else could they prove to Cersei, et al. that the threat was real? It was the only way, and though she's too sociopathic to put her ambitions aside, it convinced Jaime & likely Bronn. The Lannister soldiers in the arena saw it. In the end it will prove to have been worth it.
2
That isn't the point; good writers can compress without taking shortcuts. The shortcuts are what create the gaps in story logic that irritate so many of us, and most of them could have been avoided with a line or two of dialogue or even less. In the scene in Arya's bedchamber, for example, Sansa at some point could have looked toward the door and Arya could have followed Sansa's gaze, held hers there for an extra beat, and then looked back at Sansa. At the time, we wouldn't have known what it was—hope for rescue, checking to see if the plan was working, or something else. But the possibility that this was an act would have been raised within the story; we wouldn't have had to reach outside it in hopes that this was what was going on because it would be such a bummer if the show runners were undercutting the growth of these characters with a tired trope—the fighting sisters. Actually, this example illustrates something beyond shortcutting: intentionally tricking the audience. Both are hallmarks of lazy or incompetent writing.
Pretty boring and predictable all around. The visuals with the ice dragon were cool, but overall... meh.
2
"Spoils of War" is, I think, the best episode of this year and I think this is second. It lacked a lot of action scenes, but I think it really told more story than any other episode. All the conversations were loaded with vital information. Liked the Littlefinger solution. Sansa really played him for the fool he thought she was. I didn't think she was falling for his manipulations and was glad to see I was right. On a production note: I think the costume designer truly deserves the Emmy for Costume Design. The costumes this year are fantastic. Jorah Mormonts leathers last night were beautiful. Costumes, FX, story line, all in all a really entertaining season.
67
It's true, the costumes were tremendous this season.
31
The shift in the King's Guard from the gold and silver to the black of Cercie's heart has been very telling. I'm glad others are picking up on it. Also, Danny's wardrobe shifting from the lighter clothes needed in the desert to the heavier coats needed in the colder climate of Westeros (and the much clolder north of the Wall) has been very telling and very well done.
3
Except for Cersi's hoop skirt last night.
1
Rest in peace Littlefinger, you will be missed. Aidan Gillen is such a fine actor, and his Lord Baelish was one of the more interesting and complex characters on the show. Much like Al Swearengen from Deadwood, Littlefinger portrayed the duality of human nature through his actions; he always kept me guessing of his true motives, and the show will be worse off without him. A truly tragic figure.
5
Gillen's acting in his final scene was truly extraordinary; I'm going to watch that scene again and again.
Turning GRR Martin's complex world and work into a TV series continues to amaze me. Based on plot events and dialog this season, I can imagine a final season battle "royale" featuring Jon and Dany riding the two living dragons against the Night king mounted on the Zombie Viserion. After all, it appeared that Jon got along rather well with Dany's dragon this season.
Regarding Jon and Dany, I'm not convinced they are related in exactly the way we have been led to believe. If Jon is Targaryen by birth, is it possible that Dany is really not a Targaryen? A huge stretch, but in the Game of Thrones series I would not at all be surprised with that.
Regarding Jon and Dany, I'm not convinced they are related in exactly the way we have been led to believe. If Jon is Targaryen by birth, is it possible that Dany is really not a Targaryen? A huge stretch, but in the Game of Thrones series I would not at all be surprised with that.
3
The show's Dany can survive fire. She's a Targaryen, all right.
1
Although the show messed this up considerably....the Targaryan's are supuosed to be tremendously inbed, because they marry siblings. As a result, they are described IN THE BOOK as very slight, almost albino, with white blonde hair and pale lavender eyes. They are extremely distinctive in appearance.
Jon Snow (in book) looks nothing like this, as he is dark in coloring.
In the TV show, they choose adorably cute Emilia Clarke, who is very pretty but looks NOTHING like Daenerys in the novel. Daenerys starts out at age 12; she is 16 by last book. She is supposed to be very thin,slightly built, PALE SKINNED and fair. Clarke is wearing a very bad, fake wig and has dark, dark eyebrows -- she is of course, a brunette in real life, with brunette coloring. Some people like the contrast between her coloring and the blonde wig, but really, it looks very fake.
Anyways: Jon doesn't look like a Targaryen, so that's a hint right there -- he doesn't even have the lavender eyes. It doesn't work in the TV show, because Emilia Clarke is as brunette in coloring as Kit Harrington.
Jon Snow (in book) looks nothing like this, as he is dark in coloring.
In the TV show, they choose adorably cute Emilia Clarke, who is very pretty but looks NOTHING like Daenerys in the novel. Daenerys starts out at age 12; she is 16 by last book. She is supposed to be very thin,slightly built, PALE SKINNED and fair. Clarke is wearing a very bad, fake wig and has dark, dark eyebrows -- she is of course, a brunette in real life, with brunette coloring. Some people like the contrast between her coloring and the blonde wig, but really, it looks very fake.
Anyways: Jon doesn't look like a Targaryen, so that's a hint right there -- he doesn't even have the lavender eyes. It doesn't work in the TV show, because Emilia Clarke is as brunette in coloring as Kit Harrington.
No. Daenery's mother and father were brother and sister. She is about as pure (inbred) a Targaryen as possible. However, Jon is only half Targaryen and it seems pretty clear that the reason the Targaryens marry family members in the first place is because their Valyrian features (and skills, like dragon bonding/riding) would likely disappear quickly. Some did intermarry and their children did not look like Targaryens. Jon is the same way - the Stark/First Men blood from his mother would easily trump the recessive Targaryen genes, giving him brown hair and eyes instead of silver/purple coloration.
2
If Daenerys and Rhaegar, sister and brother, are around the same age, and Rhaegar is Jon's father, how can Daenerys and Jon be around the same age? She's got to be a lot older than him.
3
Rhaegar was much older than Daenerys. Consider how young Ned was in those flashbacks. Rhaegar was closer to his age than Daenerys's.
25
They are a generation apart, though siblings. Dany is supposed to be only 12 in the first book -- has her dragons hatch at roughly age 13 -- is maybe 15-16 in the last novel. On the other hand, Emilia Clarke has aged from 24-30 during the series. So that distorts one's perception of "how old people are supposed to be".
I think you are confusing Rhaegar and Vyseris (sp?) - the brother that she traveled with in the beginning and who was killed by Khal Drogo
I'm actually OK with Tyrion underestimating Cercei. He may 'know her better than anyone', but he hasn't been around to see her descend into the sociopathic depths she is in now. As her brother, he still wants to believe she possesses a little bit of humanity -- maybe for Jaime's sake, or the sake of her unborn child. He still wants to think she can rationalize the true threat and not allow the rest of Westerns to be condemned for her own desire for power. He;s wrong, but she is his family and he doesn't want to think she could be so depraved. Jaime said it best, no matter who wins in the north, the victor will come back to kill them. Will the Iron Bank back her no matter what? If she's facing the Army of the Dead, what good is gold? If she's facing Dragons and Dothraki and Unsullied and every survivor of the North, is the Golden Company enough? I can't see the Bank taking that type of risk for long. It's not profitable. And, technically, the Golden Company are Targaryens. Will that come into play? I was glad to see Jaime finally let go, realizing his loyalty was misplaced. Tyron will be glad to have him on his side. Despite their differences, they've always had a connection built on mutual respect; something Cercei has never had with anyone.
11
Agreed. Tyrion has been away for a long time, and he is probably convinced that he is smarter and more persuasive than he actually is since Dany is so easily convinced and swayed by him. He's become naive and more idealistic.
Agreed. Saying Tyrion is underestimating Cercei is like saying "why is our Quarterback playing so bad today??" Maybe its because the other team's defense picked up their game? Perhaps Cercei has learned how to outwit her brother. She's certainly been playing a better game then Tyrion lately.
Daario Naharis is still across the Narrow Sea, and hasn't he been a mercenary in the Golden Company before? I won't be surprised if he signs on again to seem like he's going to be Cercei's boy and then turn the Golden Company to Daenarys's side.
This episode made me SO eager to watch the next season of Peaky Blinders.
2
Correct me if I'm wrong, but since Theon (apparently) killed Euron in King's Landing, doesn't that give him control of the Iron Fleet? Like you mentioned, it seemed like the Ironborn soldiers were suddenly gung-ho on saving Yara and submitting to Theon's command. So wouldn't it follow that the Iron Fleet would not be going to Essos to pick up the Golden Company? Did anyone else catch that?
That wasn't Euron. It was a different bearded Ironborn lout.
29
I don't believe that was his uncle Euron that he killed.
It wasn't Euron that he killed -- just a doppelganger.
If Cersei is going to die, who will kill Cersei? We probably adore Tyrion more than we pity Jaime or even root for Dany. Since Tyrion is the true underdog of the series, I predict he will receive the trophy of Cersei’s death.
Having us all doubt Tyrion’s strategic wisdom is just a setup for next season. Tyrion (in cohoots with Varys perhaps) fools Cersei into believing that she convinced him of joining the alliance. Cersei lets her guard down thinking the alliance army has all returned north. Dany/Drogon and army spring a surprise battle, joined by rescued Lara, Theon, and their army. Tyrion strides in and lets her have it.
As for Jaime? Perhaps the writers will exonerate him by killing him off in battle as he saves a key figure in GOT. The Cersei ship has already sailed for Jaime. All he has left is the chance to muster at least one good deed among his miserable many before expiring. If the writers decide not to kill him off after his big save, maybe they will allow both Lannister bothers to plunge the blade together into their evil sister or poison her beloved glass of wine.
Last night Dany spoke about the physical demise of the dragons while under captivity. Since sped-up time doesn’t bother the writers, Dany and Jon will spawn a new fiercer, larger dragon litter that will mature in time for the final battles against the wight-dragon and Cersei. Maybe Dany will die heroically in battle, solving the icky incest thing, and leave Jon/Aegon as the surviving ruler.
Having us all doubt Tyrion’s strategic wisdom is just a setup for next season. Tyrion (in cohoots with Varys perhaps) fools Cersei into believing that she convinced him of joining the alliance. Cersei lets her guard down thinking the alliance army has all returned north. Dany/Drogon and army spring a surprise battle, joined by rescued Lara, Theon, and their army. Tyrion strides in and lets her have it.
As for Jaime? Perhaps the writers will exonerate him by killing him off in battle as he saves a key figure in GOT. The Cersei ship has already sailed for Jaime. All he has left is the chance to muster at least one good deed among his miserable many before expiring. If the writers decide not to kill him off after his big save, maybe they will allow both Lannister bothers to plunge the blade together into their evil sister or poison her beloved glass of wine.
Last night Dany spoke about the physical demise of the dragons while under captivity. Since sped-up time doesn’t bother the writers, Dany and Jon will spawn a new fiercer, larger dragon litter that will mature in time for the final battles against the wight-dragon and Cersei. Maybe Dany will die heroically in battle, solving the icky incest thing, and leave Jon/Aegon as the surviving ruler.
1
No. I think Tyrion would regret having to kill yet another of his own family, and it would strain relations with Jaime. I'm hoping it's a Stark, preferably Sansa but more likely Arya, although Jaime himself might discover she was lying about her pregnancy and flip out and chop her head off. At some point Jaime has to totally break with Cersei in a more dramatic fashion than simply turning his back. I imagine he and the Starks will bury the hatchet following the war with the White Walkers.
Area will kill Cersi. Remember the list.
I could be wrong, but my impression from reading the first book in 1996, and since, has been that GRRM has a "thang" for Daeneryas and she represents his ideal of "hotness" and he just won't kill her off out of sentiment. I think he'd kill Jon Snow first, but my guess is both will survive, marry and have children by the end.
Reading fellow watchers' comments makes me wish for less critical points here, and more simple gratitude. Hindsight evidently lends false authority to those readers who feel that their own viewpoints on script, plot, cinematography, acting, character traits, and timing are valid and knowledgeable. Come on, people. You must admit that you've been both diligent and vested in this series from the very beginning, whether or not you agree with any of these final wrap-ups from the writers and directors. IT IS A FANTASY, a beautifully executed one, and I tire of seeing so many amateurs nit-pick every last tiny detail down to the bone. I also remain grateful for the recaps here, well written by someone who has to rush to the keyboard the minute the show credits scroll- and for what? For all of us to read, and ponder. Then, another day later, the NYT writers manage to pull together a meaty newsletter to share with those of us who signed up for it. Be nice and convey some humble appreciation, please, along with your critiques.
164
Thanks very much.
25
Great points.
4
I was about to write a post conveying the same sentiment, but I couldn't say it half as well as you did. Nicely done, and thank you.
3
I had long suspected that when Danerys and Jon eventually met, they would connect romantically. And if it is true that Danerys cannot have children, then her joining with Jon will have no ill effects (which underlies the incest taboo). Convenient. Besides, can it get any worse that Cersei's and Jamime's incestuous brother-sister union that produced 3 blond haired children? What I don't get is Cersei's continued plotting to preserve her position on the throne in the face of the white walker threat which was demonstrated right before her eyes - especially when Uncle Ironborn professed terror at the sight? Or was that mere play-acting, as suggested? And I don't get how the Iron Bank can help here. Are they going to bribe the undead with gold? It's a fantasy so I have no complaints about the episode or the series as some of wanna-be critics here.
1
Really, Jon has been KILLED and come back to life -- Dany was dropped into an inferno and did not burn up, and came out with 3 hatchling dragons -- but you are taking a prediction of infertility as absolute medical fact?
The reality is the story has been change and changed again -- by GRRM -- and then the show's producers did their own tweaking and rewriting -- now there are NO MORE NOVELS to base it on, just an outline and the producers are "winging it". So literally ANYTHING could happen.
The reality is the story has been change and changed again -- by GRRM -- and then the show's producers did their own tweaking and rewriting -- now there are NO MORE NOVELS to base it on, just an outline and the producers are "winging it". So literally ANYTHING could happen.
1
re Dany's infertility - I'm taking her at her own word. If she conceives a child with Jon - more the better - all in the family!
Cersei = Michael Corleone, Jamie = Fredo, The Mountain = Al Neri
Jon = Siegfried, Dani = Brunhilde
Zombie Viserion = Reptilicus
I think these stories have been done before. It's still lots of fun to watch.
Jon = Siegfried, Dani = Brunhilde
Zombie Viserion = Reptilicus
I think these stories have been done before. It's still lots of fun to watch.
1
too much to say about too many events, but first, i loved this final episode of the season. all the issues i wanted addressed before i had to endure another hiatus have been checked off. i take it as a reward for the show’s faithful. and it’s fantasy, fantasy on television . . . do we really need to scrutinize every detail so relentlessly? the characters, the dialogue, and those costumes! (can we get a peek at the village leather-and-metalworks sweatshop that’s turning all that out?!)
i’ll take just one issue that folks have been wailing about: bran’s silence, slowness, reticence, whatever you want to call it. it seems that someone with that particular power - and, ostensibly, a special degree of wisdom - might purposely withhold information or wait till the right time to divulge. it’s the journey that determines who these characters are and what will unfold; otherwise, the story would take a straight path without conflict or discovery. it’s actually one of the more realistic aspects of the show, of life. don’t you think jojen knew more than he revealed when he led bran on his northward journey? he told bran only what he needed to know, when he needed to know it. the rest, bran had to discover himself. so let it be. bran’s reveals and silences have a time and a place.
i’ll take just one issue that folks have been wailing about: bran’s silence, slowness, reticence, whatever you want to call it. it seems that someone with that particular power - and, ostensibly, a special degree of wisdom - might purposely withhold information or wait till the right time to divulge. it’s the journey that determines who these characters are and what will unfold; otherwise, the story would take a straight path without conflict or discovery. it’s actually one of the more realistic aspects of the show, of life. don’t you think jojen knew more than he revealed when he led bran on his northward journey? he told bran only what he needed to know, when he needed to know it. the rest, bran had to discover himself. so let it be. bran’s reveals and silences have a time and a place.
5
Bronn seems to be playing his own game of sorts. Someone explain why, in the first meeting between Cersei et al and Dany et al al at the dragon pit, was a walk-off by Bronn and Podrick announced as it was with Brienne providing her approval. And they never returned..........I get the connection between the two from seasons past and maybe that is all there is to this staging but still seemed a bit of a forced moment.
3
Yes. I thought there was something more to it too. But maybe it was just Bronn wanted to get out of there in case he had to take up arms against Tyrion et. al.
Podrick is her squire, so he needed her approval.
But, yes, Pod used to be Tyrion's page and Bronn his bodyguard, so clearly they're cooking something up.
Bronn will definitely be back in Tyrion's service, probably as an inside man.
If he takes over for Jaime as Lord Commander of Cersei's Kingsguard, then having him kill Cersei (like Jaime killed the Mad King) would represent her dying at the hands of BOTH her younger brothers.
But, yes, Pod used to be Tyrion's page and Bronn his bodyguard, so clearly they're cooking something up.
Bronn will definitely be back in Tyrion's service, probably as an inside man.
If he takes over for Jaime as Lord Commander of Cersei's Kingsguard, then having him kill Cersei (like Jaime killed the Mad King) would represent her dying at the hands of BOTH her younger brothers.
I think that's all it was. Both Bronn and Podrick served Tyrion so they are old compadres. And Bronn is largely uninterested in political wheeling-dealing, except as it benefits him. I think he valued having some beer then, as he suspected the meeting might lead to a mess he'd have to clean up later.
I know everyone has complained about the Beyond the Wall expedition, but you must admit the look on Cersei's face when the Wight came at her was priceless. And of course Qyburn's delight made clap with glee. Totally worth it.
13
Qyburn really was delightful in his own special way in that scene. Lena Headey is such a great actor and in particular such a great facial actor; I'd love to watch a compilation of her best scenes in this show, one after another.
I have enjoyed this season immensely and thought this last episode to be quite well done. Some questions, though. Isn't it about time that the scientists unite with the ethical elements of the military and with the honorable elements of the political world to bring down the wealthy and cruel autocrats who have usurped so much power at the expense of the people? Yes, I'm talking about Westeros. Not that other place that has been in the news the past year or so. It's about time that those arrogant academics in their tower stop sneering and start contributing. The Great War against the deplorable Night King and his followers will need more than good will and Dragon Glass. The maesters control most of the knowledge ( scientific as well as genealogical) . Time to start using it against Cersei and the Dead Guys.
Another thing. While many of us wonder about Jon's about to be realized heredity and how that will affect the power struggle, everyone seems to be forgetting about Dany's devoted followers. We know that they follow her not because of her royal lineage but because they love her and believe in her. How will they react to being told that they must bend the knee to another ruler? I don't envision the Dothrakis switching loyalties like the Berniebots supporting Hillary post primaries. Cue the laugh track.
As to Tyrion's tactical and strategic blunders, perhaps we have confused Tyrion's attractiveness with actual ability. It's been known to happen. True?
Another thing. While many of us wonder about Jon's about to be realized heredity and how that will affect the power struggle, everyone seems to be forgetting about Dany's devoted followers. We know that they follow her not because of her royal lineage but because they love her and believe in her. How will they react to being told that they must bend the knee to another ruler? I don't envision the Dothrakis switching loyalties like the Berniebots supporting Hillary post primaries. Cue the laugh track.
As to Tyrion's tactical and strategic blunders, perhaps we have confused Tyrion's attractiveness with actual ability. It's been known to happen. True?
3
From what I understand, many readers thought the books peaked with the third one and if you through in season 4 ep 1 "the purple wedding" I'd say that you could kinda skip to the upcoming final season from there. Sansa and Arya, in a way, avenged Joffery's death like a figurative Lannister zombie. The best part of the season was when Jamie, on the fly, counter-attacked Dani; they were both behaving like the heroes of their own story compared to clear villains like Joffery, Ramsay, Cersie and the night king.
2
A few of my thoughts!
There was no sexual chemistry at all between Jon and Dany the entire season. And last nights performance in the sack fell flat.
Loved Little Fingers quick but vicious ending, the Stark girls learned their life lessons well and have grown up to the realities around them. The entire scene made the episode for me.
For me, the episode was a brief but needed escape from current and ongoing sad and devastating events.
There was no sexual chemistry at all between Jon and Dany the entire season. And last nights performance in the sack fell flat.
Loved Little Fingers quick but vicious ending, the Stark girls learned their life lessons well and have grown up to the realities around them. The entire scene made the episode for me.
For me, the episode was a brief but needed escape from current and ongoing sad and devastating events.
9
While I agree with most of what has been written about the lack of surprises and change of pace in storytelling, but isn't that inevitable? The series started with the bang of the Ned shocker....then the Red Wedding which were unprecedented plot twists. Now we're in seasons 6 and 7, and like a heroin addict, it takes so much more to get us off. We've become savvy to the plot nuances and what characters are capable of to make surprises or shock near impossible at this point. Shy of Cersei "winning the game" and keeping the throne, I don't know what could really surprise or shock in season 8. Still great escapism that I'm enjoying thoroughly.
12
I had one really big question:
Where did those huge chains come from that were used to drag that dragon out of the lake?
Where did those huge chains come from that were used to drag that dragon out of the lake?
6
Even more pressing, who attached the chains to the dragon in the water? They don't swim.
1
Night's Watch Rangers, wildling clans, ancient First Men, etc. have all been roaming north of the wall area for thousands of years. It's not like it was/is a completely deserted wasteland north of the wall.
Everybody say together, "deus ex machina"!
Just a random thought. If only Targaryens can touch the dragons what are we to make of the fact that Tyrion did so quite some time ago?
3
Many have speculated that Tyrion is the son of Joanna Lannister and King Aerys Targaryen (look up the history between those two + Tywin Lannister), which would make him a half brother to Danaerys and half Targaryen. Not sure if it will make it into the final 6 eps because that would kind of overdo it on the surprise twists, but it seems likely in the books - Tyrion has paler hair and mismatched eyes than other Lannisters, Tywin rejects him as a son over and over, Tyrion has "dragon dreams" and an obsession with fire throughout his life, and so on.
2
There is a rumor that Tyrion is the bastard son of Joanna Lannister (Tywin's wife) and the Mad King Aerys. When Tywin said "You're no son of mine," he might have been speaking more than metaphorically.
Rhaegar really got around?
Is Tyrion a dunce or is he just playing the Game. By giving Dany poor advice he has weakened her military, allowed the invaders from the North to advance across the wall, and forced Northern lords into a conflicting situation as their King has bent the knee to a foreign Queen. Tyrion' s meeting with Cersai led to her losing her best field commander (Jamie) and the Lannister forces, which will most likely follow their commander to the North. Tyrion has made himself untouchable. All the power players are now weakened because of Tyrion's advice, whether done on purpose or not, ultimately puts him in the best position to survive and be the sole heir to the Iron Throne.
4
Jonerys is destined to be either fatherless or an orphan but nonetheless heir to the Iron Throne. And Sam and Bran will be left with the truth.
Incest won't even complicate the final episodes--leading me to believe that, in turn, Cersei's pregnancy, whether real or imagined, won't result in another Lannister.
After the Red Wedding, why would you predict a happy ending for Jon Snow? An heroic one, maybe, yes, but not necessarily a romantic one.
Incest won't even complicate the final episodes--leading me to believe that, in turn, Cersei's pregnancy, whether real or imagined, won't result in another Lannister.
After the Red Wedding, why would you predict a happy ending for Jon Snow? An heroic one, maybe, yes, but not necessarily a romantic one.
2
One question - in an episode where all the Starks seemed to be channeling their father, why did Arya and Sansa go the opposite route with Littlefinger's execution? Ned was the one who said he who gives the sentence must carry out the execution, but Arya and Sansa even verbalized similar words, except Sansa gave the sentence and Arya carried out the execution. Seemed incongruous.
2
I wondered about that too. Many characters were channeling Ned Stark in this episode, and this seemed to go against one of his principal teachings. But he could never have foreseen a future where his two daughters and crippled son were left in charge of Winterfell in such dire circumstances. Sansa and Arya (and bran?) acted as one here. Executioner and weapon and (knower of all the evidence?). Sansa did not look away and gave his sentence publicly to his face. Arya was the most capable of carrying out the sentence quickly and effectively. To me it seems to meet the spirit if not the technicality of Ned's belief. And a good end to what to me was a clunky and needlessly cryptic Arya/Sansa storyline this season.
12
I agree with Mary J. Both sisters played critical roles in his execution, by design. Shows how the Stark family is coming together.
It's simple: "When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives." The Starks as a PACK decided Littlefinger needed to die to protect the PACK: Bran gave the evidence; Sansa the verdict; Arya the execution.
2
A sensational last episode for the season and extremely satisfying.
4
Just wanted to say that, though I couldn't stomach watching the show, I have enjoyed reading the recaps and the comments, supplemented by a few YouTube bits. It's a great saga, especially since I have always been interested in medieval history. Thanks to all who have participated.
4
I am going to have to put the suspension of disbelief into 'high' mode if we are to believe that Jon and company are going to be able to mount a serious resistance to a zombie dragon and an army of the dead that brought down a wall of ice and rock that stopped intruders for 8000 years in the space of approximately 30 seconds and then walked through in less time than it takes to pay at a tollroad.
1
I believe the cheap Deus Ex Machina has already been revealed. Kill one white walker and all his creations die instantly.
1
two dragons and a tonne of dragon glass makes it a more balanced fight.
and it's going to come down to jon vs the night king anyway. if the night king dies, his army falls.
and it's going to come down to jon vs the night king anyway. if the night king dies, his army falls.
What you are saying is, the stakes are high.
Actually, the biggest cost to Cersei's planned betrayal is not the loss of her forces, but the loss of Qyburn. He was clearly very interested in that zombie hand. If anyone could figure out a technical way to overcome those hordes, it's him.
Actually, the biggest cost to Cersei's planned betrayal is not the loss of her forces, but the loss of Qyburn. He was clearly very interested in that zombie hand. If anyone could figure out a technical way to overcome those hordes, it's him.
I and other people have been asking why Tyrion's plans fell apart. After all he masterminded the win at the Battle Of Blackwater! We suspect that there is a traitor in Danaerys's camp. Who it is will have to wait until next season.
Jon should have been called Jaehaerys Stark-Targaryan. Because the books have Aegon Targaryan, son of Rhaegar and Elia Martell, running around in the later books AND the show cut him out, I think the show conflated the two characters. (Aegon and Jon)
Jon should have been called Jaehaerys Stark-Targaryan. Because the books have Aegon Targaryan, son of Rhaegar and Elia Martell, running around in the later books AND the show cut him out, I think the show conflated the two characters. (Aegon and Jon)
2
King Arthur slept with his aunt that resulted in a kid (Mordred) who hated his father. Hope things work out better for Jon and Dany (assuming they do have a kid).
4
Half-sister. Morgan is Arthur's half-sister.
Anyone who has ever spent much time watching daytime soap operas will find two of the current storylines suspect.
One soap evergreen is the vixen who fakes a pregnancy to advance her cause. Another is the handsome hunk, whose true paternity is revealed just as he is about to take over the family business.
Cersei claims to be pregnant by Jaime. She won't be.
Bran' s snippets of insight regarding Jon's birth would seem to indicate that Jon is a Targaryen. He won't be.
One soap evergreen is the vixen who fakes a pregnancy to advance her cause. Another is the handsome hunk, whose true paternity is revealed just as he is about to take over the family business.
Cersei claims to be pregnant by Jaime. She won't be.
Bran' s snippets of insight regarding Jon's birth would seem to indicate that Jon is a Targaryen. He won't be.
4
Also, people who THINK they are related (so can't hook up) but they are not....plus people who ARE related, but don't realize it (so they can't hook now or are very sorry they did so before).
1
Still love the show, and eagerly await your recaps.
Re Jonerys...why not? These two deserve some joy. But wait a minute! Doesn't the fact of two leading characters experiencing love doom one or both of them? Probably. In the meantime, the ride is enjoyable. And the dragons!
Re Jonerys...why not? These two deserve some joy. But wait a minute! Doesn't the fact of two leading characters experiencing love doom one or both of them? Probably. In the meantime, the ride is enjoyable. And the dragons!
2
Loved it! Brienne and the Hound discussing Arya, Brienne appealing to Jaime's good side which it looks like it has won through, the Hound seeing his zombied brother, Podric and Tyrion and Bron back together like old days, and thank God we didn't lose Tormund yet!
The only discomfort for me is Jonaerys - not because they're related ( I've turned into a person who shouts "Kill them!" at the TV, so I guess I'm okay with aunt/nephew sex at this point) but because to me it says he'll have to die - which I suppose he does given he died already...
Yes, a little rushed this season but I am hoping we'll look back and say - that was the season that had to get us to the final season...!
One question will plague me the next 12 to 18 months however:
1) If Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark were legit, then why the blazes did Ned Stark join Robert's Rebellion?
The only discomfort for me is Jonaerys - not because they're related ( I've turned into a person who shouts "Kill them!" at the TV, so I guess I'm okay with aunt/nephew sex at this point) but because to me it says he'll have to die - which I suppose he does given he died already...
Yes, a little rushed this season but I am hoping we'll look back and say - that was the season that had to get us to the final season...!
One question will plague me the next 12 to 18 months however:
1) If Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark were legit, then why the blazes did Ned Stark join Robert's Rebellion?
40
It's an interesting question. I suppose he believed it was a kidnapping, too, at least at first. In the flashbacks, young Ned seems to think he's rescuing Lyanna, and is disoriented when he discovers her suffering not from some torture but from complications with childbirth. Then presumably he went along with the "official" story of Robert's Rebellion as part of his pledge to Lyanna to protect Jon.
27
They may technically be aunt/nephew, but given how common uncle + niece marriages were up to the modern time, particularly in royal or noble families, it seems weird that this is getting so much attention. I believe Dany is actually a few months YOUNGER than Jon (she was born 9 months after the Robert's Rebellion ended) and neither watched the other grow up or knew any other family members. They are total strangers with no knowledge of common relations (Dany didn't even know her brother Rhaegar, having been born after his death), so it's really not that odd.
2
The rebellion was ignited by the "abduction", but by the time Ned saw Lyanna on her death bed, his father and brother had already been burned alive by the Mad King. The goal of the rebellion at that time was to topple a cruel and insane ruler, as well as for family vengeance.
2
Lots to enjoy and critique in the Season 7 finale.
On the good side, the 2 most consistent characters stayed true to form. Just when you wondered whether Cersei had somehow gone soft, Tywin's daughter reminded us what ruthless looks like. Although failing to have the Mountain take Jamie's head may prove to be a mistake. And Jon Snow / Aegon proves once again to be his stepfather's son - honorable and likable, with no thirst for power. I thought his speech to Theon was a great foreshadow of his own situation: Jon, you are a Stark and a Targaryen.
On the downside, it is hard to watch two of the savviest characters, Tyrion and Varys, lose whatever magic they had. Tyrion's tactical genius seems to have fled and he makes one mistake after another. What does he tell Dany about his conversation with Cersei? "The wicked witch of the West turned into Glinda when I reminded her she's pregnant." And shouldn't Varys' little birds let him know in a Eastwatch-Raven instant the Euron is not headed to the Iron Islands, and that no Lannister armies are marching to the Wall?
I understand and agree with some of the frustration with the accelerated pace and reduced nuance of the last 2 seasons. But if you don't enjoy watching hotties like Jon & Dany get it on, zombie dragons turning the Wall into soft serve, the Stark sisters ganging up on Littlefinger, the fun reunions of favorite characters like Podrick, Bronn, Brienne, and the Hound, then maybe your heart's as cold as the Ice King.
On the good side, the 2 most consistent characters stayed true to form. Just when you wondered whether Cersei had somehow gone soft, Tywin's daughter reminded us what ruthless looks like. Although failing to have the Mountain take Jamie's head may prove to be a mistake. And Jon Snow / Aegon proves once again to be his stepfather's son - honorable and likable, with no thirst for power. I thought his speech to Theon was a great foreshadow of his own situation: Jon, you are a Stark and a Targaryen.
On the downside, it is hard to watch two of the savviest characters, Tyrion and Varys, lose whatever magic they had. Tyrion's tactical genius seems to have fled and he makes one mistake after another. What does he tell Dany about his conversation with Cersei? "The wicked witch of the West turned into Glinda when I reminded her she's pregnant." And shouldn't Varys' little birds let him know in a Eastwatch-Raven instant the Euron is not headed to the Iron Islands, and that no Lannister armies are marching to the Wall?
I understand and agree with some of the frustration with the accelerated pace and reduced nuance of the last 2 seasons. But if you don't enjoy watching hotties like Jon & Dany get it on, zombie dragons turning the Wall into soft serve, the Stark sisters ganging up on Littlefinger, the fun reunions of favorite characters like Podrick, Bronn, Brienne, and the Hound, then maybe your heart's as cold as the Ice King.
6
I don't believe Varys has his "little birds" in King's Landing any longer - they seem to be working for Qyburn now, not Varys.
1
AAARRGGHHHH!!!! WHY has no one commented on the impossibility of undead Viserion's flight, given his wings are now full of HOLES!!! I mean, fantasy only works if it's plausible!
6
true. zombie dragons don't strain belief. flying zombie dragons with holes in their wings, however....
Guess the difference is he's not a zombie dragon; he's a White Walker Zombie. Like Drogon who can survive multiple wounds in the arena or one really nasty scorpion shot and still fly, Viserian can take one magical spear, a fiery death and drowning, and still fly. The wights (zombies) seem to have to mind of their own and very little access to their original skill sets. The White Walkers (presumably mostly Craster's former sons) seem to have their own faculties and some semblance of independent thought/action.
The season was great (though the supersonic ravens were a bit much). What I think is interesting about the season is: 1) One thing that made Game of Thrones really unusual from the very beginning was its willingness to kill off its good guys. I don't think there has ever been a show or movie like that. I can't think of one good guy who was killed off this season. As people speculate as to what the show would look like if it were still following a George R. R. Martin script, this would be a good place to start.
2) The show has always had a character that was so evil you couldn't wait for them to be killed, and feared they would not be, because while the show was merciless to its good guys, the evil characters seemed to have extra protection. I think it is interesting that Cersei has "matured" into the evil character everyone loves to hate. Maybe all of fandom saw this coming, but I was a bit surprised.
2) The show has always had a character that was so evil you couldn't wait for them to be killed, and feared they would not be, because while the show was merciless to its good guys, the evil characters seemed to have extra protection. I think it is interesting that Cersei has "matured" into the evil character everyone loves to hate. Maybe all of fandom saw this coming, but I was a bit surprised.
1
Olenna was great, and so was her death scene. The young Tarly was promising too.
1
1) Thoros of Myr was killed off. And Benjen Stark.
2) Cersei's always been bad.
2) Cersei's always been bad.
2
Thoros was no good guy. He was a religious fanatic willing to sell human beings off to be sacrificed. Good riddance.
Doesn't anyone wonder why Leanna married Raegon? he was the chief rat in Season One.
Maybe you're confusing him with Daenerys' brother Viserys? We haven't encountered Rhaegar before on the show as he was killed during Robert's rebellion. I have to admit I thought they had brought Harry Lloyd back for that scene, but it was a different actor (apparently Rhaegar and Viserys just happen to look very much alike).
2
Who was a rat, Raeghal? He died long before Season 1 started. Do you mean the other brother, Viserys? Agreed, total rat.
What? If you mean Rhaegar Targaryen, the prince she married, and are referring to Ned/Robert flashbacks in Season 1 then you must realize that what they thought happened -- that Rhaegar abducted Ned's sister and raped her while married to Elia Martell -- did not actually happen the way they portrayed. Turns out Lyanna and Rhaegar were a real couple, in love, and that she was pregnant on purpose (not due to a rape). That's kind of the whole point. They were secretive because Lyanna was technically engaged to Robert Baratheon, but had they not been the entire usurper war would likely have been avoided.
1
Wait, when did Grey Worm and Euron get back from Casterly Rock?
2
I'm thinking the Unsullied have been marching back from Casterly Rock since Episode 4 or so. With Cersei's forces decimated and disheartened by the dragon/ Dothraki attack, there was nobody to hinder them.
The last time we saw Grey Worm he was peering out at Euron's navy, apparently pinned down and S.O.L. They next time we see them both they're back with their respective allies apparently unscathed. Did they simply agree to disagree and call it a day? It drives me nutty that the writers just decided to gloss over so many details this season.
For me this season fell off the rails when Jaime washed up a mile away from the battlefield and has only gotten worse. Contrived plotlines lack all the nuance of previous seasons and the show has become too focused with big spectacle and teasing character deaths.
The lack of plot lines that make sense and a total disregard for time and place have dulled the emotional impact of the show for me. I couldn't get too excited at the reunions at Kings Landing because they shouldn't have happened (just like Tyrion sneaking into the city previously shouldn't have happened).
At this point I just want to read the next book. Please hurry up Martin.
The lack of plot lines that make sense and a total disregard for time and place have dulled the emotional impact of the show for me. I couldn't get too excited at the reunions at Kings Landing because they shouldn't have happened (just like Tyrion sneaking into the city previously shouldn't have happened).
At this point I just want to read the next book. Please hurry up Martin.
3
Shouldn't the Hound and Brienne have "parental" pride of Arya? Despite Brienne's shunning of gender norms, she's still a woman, and therefore, not "paternal."
4
Yeah, I noticed that, too. Assumed it was a typo because that was less aggravating than the alternative.
With Euron dead on the beach and the Ironborn busy rescuing Yara, how exactly is Cersei going to get her mercenaries over to Westros? deus ex machina?
Has anyone figured out an order of battle? Dany (I think is was) said their was an opposing army of 100,000 dead (and one dragon)? Looked like a lot more (I think in terms of Melbourne Cricket Grounds (100,000 capacity) (pick your favorite stadium) and the last scene looked like a lot more than 10 MCGs. Are there a million of them? How many on the opposing side all in?
Has anyone figured out an order of battle? Dany (I think is was) said their was an opposing army of 100,000 dead (and one dragon)? Looked like a lot more (I think in terms of Melbourne Cricket Grounds (100,000 capacity) (pick your favorite stadium) and the last scene looked like a lot more than 10 MCGs. Are there a million of them? How many on the opposing side all in?
Euron is off and sailing. Theon took out the de facto leader of Yarra's men.
Now Theon is on his trail and seeking redemption.
As for the Dead, their legions grow with each battle they win, but are then divided by which white walker they are enthralled to is killed.
Cut off the head and the dragon really does die. Immediately.
Now Theon is on his trail and seeking redemption.
As for the Dead, their legions grow with each battle they win, but are then divided by which white walker they are enthralled to is killed.
Cut off the head and the dragon really does die. Immediately.
That wasn't Euron that Theon killed. It was the leader of a group of Ironborn that used to sail with Yara. Hopefully when Theon goes to get Yara, he'll see that Euron is heading to get the Golden Company, and so he can rescue Yara.
1
That was not Enron who was killed on the beach.
Thank you for your generally clearsighted and cheerful observations every week.
I'm hopeful a fan, friend or loved one (family member?) has a t-shirt made for you that has "Incest is My Raven" printed across the front in GOT title font - the perfect insider language, context-dependent gift that you could wear around the house or to Comic-Con, if not to the mall.
I'm hopeful a fan, friend or loved one (family member?) has a t-shirt made for you that has "Incest is My Raven" printed across the front in GOT title font - the perfect insider language, context-dependent gift that you could wear around the house or to Comic-Con, if not to the mall.
5
Boy, was I wrong! I predicted that Viserion, being dead, wouldn't breathe ANYTHING! The Night King is now clearly the most powerful force in Westeros.
Anyone else think Tyrion has joined the yin? I got the impression he made a deal with Cersei... supporting evidence: 1. Cersei calls Jaime, "The stupidest Lannister" after her military strategy/betrayal is revealed. 2. Tyrion's professed (new ?) avuncular love for Cersei's dead children and the Lannister family, 3. Tyrion's creeping outside of the Targaryen love shack. 4. Tyrion's new role as the "dunderhead," how can the smartest character become the most oblivious
Thanks for these articles, made watching the show more enjoyable...
Thanks for these articles, made watching the show more enjoyable...
3
So not my kind of show but I love it anyway. I wish there had been 10 episodes this season. No big deal about the incest...the Hapsburgs were famous for it!
Can't wait to see how they wrap this up.
Can't wait to see how they wrap this up.
Zzzzzzzzzzz. Except for the dragon. wow
2
Thanks for the analysis and comments. I noticed some strange theme over this final episode: a glorification of being a-sexual, or neutral, or emasculated, however you want to call it. There are several references to the fact that Daenarys's soldiers are eunuchs, and that leads to a surrealistic discussion about whether it makes sense to fight if you don't have a penis to enjoy the benefits of your victory, etc. Then there is the Theon fight scene, where he gets an element of surprise for (not) being kicked in the genitals.. which enables him to win that fight, against all odds. Overall, there are many more references in the dialogs to male attributes in this episode (some very trivial), which, together with a lot of incest-related issues as you analyzed in your review, made me wonder about the sexual symbolism of the series as it nears its end.
3
Alright people quite your you know what about Jon and Dany. I mean come on, even Littlefinger figured it out. They're young and Jon has only had one experience in a cave, in a cave. No matter how romantic that looked, it wasn't easy on hard wet rocks.
Besides what other choices are there for Jon? I mean the other girls left are his sisters/cousins. Lady Mormont is too young and so is that Karstark girl. The only other option I can see is Meera Reed. I would actually approve of that because their children would be smart and tough, but now she's out of the picture and we probably won't see her until after the war if at all. What Jon and Dany don't know won't hurt them for now.
Besides what other choices are there for Jon? I mean the other girls left are his sisters/cousins. Lady Mormont is too young and so is that Karstark girl. The only other option I can see is Meera Reed. I would actually approve of that because their children would be smart and tough, but now she's out of the picture and we probably won't see her until after the war if at all. What Jon and Dany don't know won't hurt them for now.
3
Excellent episode. The best part was the trial and killing of Littlefinger was so well done. If any of the Northern Lords had doubts about Sansa before they don't know. Heaven only knows what they must be thinking about Ayra.
6
You, ser, were kinder to season 7 than I am. No doubt, Hollywood tv overwhelmed storytelling. But the story was trivialized…dragonpit summit was like Shark Tank…Euron “I am out”, Cersei “I am in but I am lying”. Littlefinger was eliminated by children of the corn. Jon and Dany draw the shortest stick with incest and pregnancy. I am hoping that only Jon was “blissfully unaware”, though, and he is just a pretty action figure in Dany’s scam. If Gilly was able to find out about Rhaegar and Lyanna’s wedding so could Dany. Furthermore, Howland Reed knows, as well, so Bran’s gratuitous vision is not the only source. Dany wants the iron throne and Jon is next in line so she seduces him which is like killing two ravens with one stone…she gets an ally and a lover. Baby or no baby, Jon is now hers to manipulate. Maybe Tyrion knows what she knows and was worried not just being a creep at her door. I would prefer Dany to go full on evil psycho (three centuries of inbreeding) and be in cahoots with the Night King but explaining it to the audience in the last season would take too much time. The only thing that did not disappoint in season 7 was Ramin Djawadi’s score. Jon “You Know Nothing” Snow should have gotten a hint from his and Dany’s song, first heard in Dragonstone cave. No happy ending was ever foreshadowed by melody in the saddest key of D minor!
2
I'm confused about how Cersie is still able to get backing from the Iron Bank. Didn't the convoy with all the money she was repaying get totally destroyed in the recent battle/dragon ambush?
1
@Overton Window: No, the gold made it through the gates; that was said in passing at the very beginning of the episode in which the rest of the wagon train was incinerated. Later, the Iron Bank representative (he's Mycroft to me, because the actor plays Sherlock Holmes's older brother in British TV series) is so impressed at how Cersei has beaten the odds and repaid the bank, that they strike a new deal for a new loan.
Prior to getting smoked by the Mother of Dragons, Randyll Tarly and Jaime talked about the gold having already reached King's Landing.
1
No, the convoy with the money made it safely to KL. The food convoy was attacked & destroyed by Dany.
The earlier seasons were for character development. No time for that now that winter is here. Loved that Littlefinger got the finger and loved Jaime riding away from Kings Landing. "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn." Will Bronn catch up to him?
2
Jeremy,
You column is always lots of fun and I really enjoy it.But did you miss the important thing of why the Targarenys keep intermarrying over the centuries. It is to preserve the magic that would be watered down if they started marrying anyone and everyone who came along. Just like there must always be a Stark in Winterfell ( to keep the magic up) there must always be a real Targeryn for dragons to be born, G.R.R Martin worlds cycles on a loop. Craster last son was a baby walker and is probably back at the old ice castle waiting for the next long night.
As for the icky factor just remember that every time the current royals say they are marrying a commoner the are in effect saying the are not marrying one of their cousins this time around.
You column is always lots of fun and I really enjoy it.But did you miss the important thing of why the Targarenys keep intermarrying over the centuries. It is to preserve the magic that would be watered down if they started marrying anyone and everyone who came along. Just like there must always be a Stark in Winterfell ( to keep the magic up) there must always be a real Targeryn for dragons to be born, G.R.R Martin worlds cycles on a loop. Craster last son was a baby walker and is probably back at the old ice castle waiting for the next long night.
As for the icky factor just remember that every time the current royals say they are marrying a commoner the are in effect saying the are not marrying one of their cousins this time around.
4
This past season was rushed and the writing could have been better. I hate when writers assume they're smarter than viewers.
Littlefinger's demise was so obvious it was ridiculous. The fact that he didn't see it coming was out of character.
Euron acting like a coward was also out of character and it was obviously a feint. Theon getting a second wind because he has no balls was just silly.
I'm tired of Tyrion being stupid this season after being so smart in past seasons. I really like his character and the fact that he has been wrong and dense so many times was frustrating.
Bran is the three eyed raven but he only talks about how he can see everything everywhere in the past and the present (selectively it seems) but he never talks about his third eye seeing into the future. If Westeros humans were doomed to be the walking dead, wouldn't Bran know that? Wouldn't he become one of them? Plus what's the goal of the King of the Dead after he "kills" everyone? Sit on a throne and watch his zombies scream and flail?
Having said all that, I still enjoyed the season, but I sincerely hope next season is better written and much more satisfying.
Littlefinger's demise was so obvious it was ridiculous. The fact that he didn't see it coming was out of character.
Euron acting like a coward was also out of character and it was obviously a feint. Theon getting a second wind because he has no balls was just silly.
I'm tired of Tyrion being stupid this season after being so smart in past seasons. I really like his character and the fact that he has been wrong and dense so many times was frustrating.
Bran is the three eyed raven but he only talks about how he can see everything everywhere in the past and the present (selectively it seems) but he never talks about his third eye seeing into the future. If Westeros humans were doomed to be the walking dead, wouldn't Bran know that? Wouldn't he become one of them? Plus what's the goal of the King of the Dead after he "kills" everyone? Sit on a throne and watch his zombies scream and flail?
Having said all that, I still enjoyed the season, but I sincerely hope next season is better written and much more satisfying.
2
I feel sorry for Littlefinger. He did everything right for a low-down sneaky varmint villain. Its completely unfair that a member of the family he was deceiving should become the Three-Eyed Raven and magically see every skull he duggered.
3
Best. Comment. Ever.
3
I wonder if Cersei is actually pregnant, or if she is, if it's Jaime's baby. Euron, maybe? I liked the scene where Jaime finally got that Cersei is evil and rotten, and leaves her. Jonerys seemed inevitable; they are guided by forces beyond them, I think. They'll have a Targ baby, for sure.
1
"hackneyed fake-outs"?
I guess incest isn't your only "Three-eyed Raven".
GOT is story-telling set in a fictional magical (redundant) kingdom that never existed in the real world, right? This show has been an epic, groundbreaking tour de force, and fans (at least I do) relish the magnificent, over-the-top battle (and excellently executed spectacles to which we have increasingly become accustomed to since the Battle of Blackwater Bay episode, set the bar with our first dose (but not the best) of Wildfire.
I'm good with the "supersonic" ravens and dragons (especially THESE dragons), and other "hackneyed" fake-outs, and other departures from "logic" which are necessarily present in a fantasy epic. Homer is faced with more than a few of these in "The Odyssey", but it has endured, nonetheless, as good story-telling since Nymeria was a pup.
I guess incest isn't your only "Three-eyed Raven".
GOT is story-telling set in a fictional magical (redundant) kingdom that never existed in the real world, right? This show has been an epic, groundbreaking tour de force, and fans (at least I do) relish the magnificent, over-the-top battle (and excellently executed spectacles to which we have increasingly become accustomed to since the Battle of Blackwater Bay episode, set the bar with our first dose (but not the best) of Wildfire.
I'm good with the "supersonic" ravens and dragons (especially THESE dragons), and other "hackneyed" fake-outs, and other departures from "logic" which are necessarily present in a fantasy epic. Homer is faced with more than a few of these in "The Odyssey", but it has endured, nonetheless, as good story-telling since Nymeria was a pup.
2
I haven't read anywhere that Cersi's kid is actually Euron's and not Jamie's. This theory would explain a lot of Cersi's behavior, including her constant accusations of treachery against Jamie recently. More importantly if Jamie finds out next season that Cersi has betrayed him with Euron, that may be the one thing that snaps Cersi's spell over Jamie.
In any case, I don't get the enthusiasm so many critics who are otherwise savvy about the shortcomings of this expedited season have for the finale season. I guess in 18 months we will forget the many flaws of this rushed season, but I have little faith that an even shorter final season will wrap up all the loose ends of this epic in any coherent manner.
In any case, I don't get the enthusiasm so many critics who are otherwise savvy about the shortcomings of this expedited season have for the finale season. I guess in 18 months we will forget the many flaws of this rushed season, but I have little faith that an even shorter final season will wrap up all the loose ends of this epic in any coherent manner.
1
It's probably the most sadistic thing ever, but I was so happy to see Littlefinger die, finally! The whole Sansa/Littlefinger thing has been driving me crazy for the last couple of seasons. It's great to see that, what we thought was Sansa just being stupid, she was able to manipulate him back, and actually learn that he's a psychopath.
Like Jeremy Egner pointed out, I was hoping that the Jon/Dany romance was not going to happen, but the fans got what they wanted. I never really thought of the conflict that it would have between them though, and the royal Targ baby that might come of it. However, I don't think Jon will ever want the throne even though he is entitled to it...
Not quite sure what's going on with Tyrion here, but I still think he's a Targ too... just because I want to be right on my theory for the last couple of seasons.
Glad to see the Starks unite, especially Arya and Sansa.
Well-played Cersi... I'm actually starting to like her again, and her conniving ways. What a twist it would be to see her on the throne at the end of the series, as darkness falls over westros. Not sure that it will happen, but again, what a twist.
Also, for thought, is there anyone out there that thinks Cersi (or some leader in the realm) might be able to partner up with the Night King, and his army? Other than the fact that there is a theory that Bran is the Night King...
Like Jeremy Egner pointed out, I was hoping that the Jon/Dany romance was not going to happen, but the fans got what they wanted. I never really thought of the conflict that it would have between them though, and the royal Targ baby that might come of it. However, I don't think Jon will ever want the throne even though he is entitled to it...
Not quite sure what's going on with Tyrion here, but I still think he's a Targ too... just because I want to be right on my theory for the last couple of seasons.
Glad to see the Starks unite, especially Arya and Sansa.
Well-played Cersi... I'm actually starting to like her again, and her conniving ways. What a twist it would be to see her on the throne at the end of the series, as darkness falls over westros. Not sure that it will happen, but again, what a twist.
Also, for thought, is there anyone out there that thinks Cersi (or some leader in the realm) might be able to partner up with the Night King, and his army? Other than the fact that there is a theory that Bran is the Night King...
1
I've been dreading the Jon & Dany incest possibility all season. The writers/directors did a great job with that montage - Jon's parents' loving marriage intertwined with Bran's revelation (finally - what took him so long!?) and Jon & Dany in bed. Still, I had to cover my eyes as I found my self yelling, "She's your aunt, she's your aunt! Cease and desist! Oh no, she's your aunt!" I can't wait to see how this plays out.
Many questions were answered in the finale. We can still wonder what happens if Beric or Jon is killed again. White Walker? I think not.
If Cersei is really pregnant, she might be avoiding wine simply because she doesn't like the taste anymore or because she feels sick to her stomach. She did make a show of clutching her belly while exchanging hateful looks with Tyrion. Not sure the assumption that she is avoiding wine due to advanced medical advice is warranted.
2
I thought the finale was excellent. I do not think the actors on the show get the credit they deserve.
The writer is way too hung up on the incest thing. Jaime and Cersei are gross but their crime was having an adulterous relationship against the King.
I thought Harrington and Clark did a lovely job consummating that relationship, I am here for it.
The writer is way too hung up on the incest thing. Jaime and Cersei are gross but their crime was having an adulterous relationship against the King.
I thought Harrington and Clark did a lovely job consummating that relationship, I am here for it.
6
When Jaime looked at his gold hand, and then covered it with the glove, just after Cersei made the speech about having all the gold, it kind of symbolized their final break, and also made me wonder if Cersei will die later on surrounded by gold, not entirely unlike Dany's brother who got his head fried in it.
2
Predictions: Jon and Dany will find out they are related and, too late, will have a child, but the son will be a bastard (cue the music: "Another opening, another Snow") and given to Missandei and Grey Worm to raise. Cersei knows all along that she isn't pregnant, but has a tumor (a la "Bloody" Queen Mary I of England) for which she's been secretly getting treatment, but will eventually die, elegantly, "Camille-like," in Jamie's arms as Tyrion looks on. Or, um, maybe not.
Jon & Daeney? Why be disturbed? The Gods have always done things differently. This is just the Nordic story all over again. Please don't throw modern morals over it.
4
It's not the time element that bothers me so much in this final season as the stiffness of the characters and sometimes embarrassingly bad dialogue. Were the characters always so stiff? I need to go back to beginning to watch. Also, Dany and Cersei both look like their shoulders are hunched. What's with the costumes?
2
"Please share your thoughts in the comments and, as always, many thanks for reading and weighing in over the past seven weeks." Okie Dokie.
Great scenes in 7, and not just the Zombie Dragon's passages of extended huffing and puffing, blowing the wall down. GameOT is running out of energy. I bet next season is the last season. The tip off is the extended battle scenes, extended fight scenes more repetitiousness than ferocity. GameOT has served us well. Now, I'm ready for an epic sci-fi-fi venture.
Great scenes in 7, and not just the Zombie Dragon's passages of extended huffing and puffing, blowing the wall down. GameOT is running out of energy. I bet next season is the last season. The tip off is the extended battle scenes, extended fight scenes more repetitiousness than ferocity. GameOT has served us well. Now, I'm ready for an epic sci-fi-fi venture.
1
Little Finger's death was most satisfying especially because many people thought Sansa was such dope and that Arya and Little Finger were the real manipulators driving that narrative. Turns out she has learned quite a bit and maybe being underestimated is the greatest tool. Perhaps she will be queen.
Jon makes bad strategic decisions. Not lying but not always telling the whole truth would be good. Although the show likes to reward his heroic naiveté. I think that at some point that coupling can not be sustained and their impulsive earnestness will catch up to them either by Cersei or the Night King.
I'm still hoping Cersei gets killed by Arya in a Jamie mask. Ha! Will Theon ruin Cersei's plot in his attempt to rescue his sister? Still thinking that the Sellswords will cross the river to play a part for Daeny. Will one GoT spin off be Daeny and Jon's child battling Cersei's. We had Battle of the Bastards, what will we call that: Incestuous Implosion?
Jon makes bad strategic decisions. Not lying but not always telling the whole truth would be good. Although the show likes to reward his heroic naiveté. I think that at some point that coupling can not be sustained and their impulsive earnestness will catch up to them either by Cersei or the Night King.
I'm still hoping Cersei gets killed by Arya in a Jamie mask. Ha! Will Theon ruin Cersei's plot in his attempt to rescue his sister? Still thinking that the Sellswords will cross the river to play a part for Daeny. Will one GoT spin off be Daeny and Jon's child battling Cersei's. We had Battle of the Bastards, what will we call that: Incestuous Implosion?
4
Jaime is not actually on Arya's list. She might not be all that dedicated to killing him. (I'm not saying she wouldn't, just she has others to worry about first.)
The best of best was Cercei and Tyron, two wonderful actors, are they nominated for Emmy's?? The deserve it, the two most interesting characters in the whole saga.....
2
GoT has the record for the most Emmy wins for a series--38 I believe--and a lot are for Writing, Directing, and of course, six nominations for best series (with consecutive wins for Season Five and Six), but it was not eligible for the 2016-17 Emmy nominations due to when the season aired. Season 7 will be eligible for the 2017-2018 Emmy nominations. Dinklage has been nominated every season they were eligible and won Supporting Actor twice. None of the other actors has won, though several have been nominated. It's interesting to note that they are nominated in the "supporting" category no matter which actor you look at--reflecting the ensemble aspect of the show. I couldn't find any record of any of them being nominated as Best Actor or Actress. And, as a consequence, they tend to cancel each other out in the voting. For example, Emilia Clark, Lena Headley and Maisie Williams were all nominated for best supporting actress for Season Six.
I loved the season. It may have had some weaker moments, but I went with it. I enjoyed Jon and Dany getting together, the sisters' revenge against Baylish, Theon stepping forward and Jaime walking away from Cersei. As far as Jon and Dany go- hey this is fantasy- anything goes.
2
Haven't read down the comments, so sorry if repeating, but Philip II of Spain (the one who married Bloody Mary Tudor), later married his niece, Anna of Austria. The Pope sniffed a little, but later acquiesced, mainly because there were Lutherans and Calvinists on the loose(probably with green bean and mushroom soup casseroles..the horror!). Good semester to share this with my GOT watching students....
1
My deepest hope is that Cersei gives birth to the second dwarf in the family-- and then promptly dies after getting a gander at it. Then Tyrion can swoop in, adopt the lad, raise him in a far better way than he ever was, and find true happiness.
Please showrunners: make it so.
Please showrunners: make it so.
3
And, now, Game of Thrones becomes The Walking Dead.
I too hope Tormund survives.
I so wish someone would kill Cersei.
I want Tyrion to get his mojo back.
I think a better demo would have been plucking Cersei out of King's Landing, and flying her north of the wall and leaving her among the White Walkers.
I too hope Tormund survives.
I so wish someone would kill Cersei.
I want Tyrion to get his mojo back.
I think a better demo would have been plucking Cersei out of King's Landing, and flying her north of the wall and leaving her among the White Walkers.
4
Jeremy, will miss your recaps. Until next year......
5
I couldn't have said it better myself. This season looks fast forwarded, with none of the nuance of the past six seasons. Tyrion is the most gullible adviser all of a sudden while Cersei is trusted by all. Ehhh, I hope they take their time next season. They should have stretched this season out over a dozen episodes to get it right.
4
Excellent analysis, although you are more forgiving than I am. I actually quit after the penultimate episode, too tired of hackneyed formulaic plot elements and implausible situations. And the Jon/Danaerys pairing just makes me want to barf. What made Martin's series of books so interesting to a long time fantasy reader like me was their flouting of genre conventions. As the series creators have increasingly fallen back on those conventions, it's become an ordeal to watch. I only read your summary so I could find out what happened without having to inflict an hour of pain on myself.
I just want to know who provides Cersei and Dany their designer clothes.
4
I'm cool with "Jonerys". There's enough strength and morale fiber in both of them to make it work. Season 7 as a whole was entertainment at its best - riveting, exciting, emotional and sit-on-the-edge of your seat tense - I can't ask for more.
Except the ending I want!
Except the ending I want!
2
Disappointed
My least favorite episode this season.
Even the scenes with rare character pairings had little buzz for me like they did earlier in the season.
I thought it was predictable. Perhaps I read too many teaser articles. And I thought the last scene's special effects looked low budget, like they finally ran out of money.
My least favorite episode this season.
Even the scenes with rare character pairings had little buzz for me like they did earlier in the season.
I thought it was predictable. Perhaps I read too many teaser articles. And I thought the last scene's special effects looked low budget, like they finally ran out of money.
1
I was wondering about the look Tyrion gave at the end. Was it just jealousy? Is it possible Jon's parentage is something he guessed at long ago, but kept it to himself (why upset the apple cart with no proof)?
4
This show is a victim of its own success. As it grew in worldwide popularity, the money rained in and the producers felt compelled to outdo the battle and fantastical scenes every season at the expense of the plot. This also was likely the result because the full story has not yet been written and the producers, while clearly talented, are not George RR Martin. I was always a bit surprised that HBO would back a story whose conclusion had not yet been written by the author. Notwithstanding all this though, GoT is very very entertaining television.
3
I have never, in my life, been so addicted so a show that otherwise violates every good taste I've never accumulated. This season in particular. I mean, the spectacle is truly something to behold. Production values are groundbreaking. The care taken in conjuring a living, textured world beyond our own is more than impressive, in fact, it seems to contain something of our culture's values at this point in history. And yet the dramatic drive of each scene -- smothered in all the posturing, the predictable smirks, the meaningful smoldering looks between this or that character, in fact, the whole season -- convinced me that Game of Thrones has to be some kind of Olympics of bad acting. I've begun to understand what my grandmother felt in the 1950s watching all that unbearably dramatic interpersonal drama on Days of Our Lives. And like her, I keep watching.
7
I would have liked to have seen the whole behind-the-scenes thing of how Sansa and Arya worked out Littlefinger's scheming to pit them against each other. Bran's help, no doubt but would have been fun to see them working it out. Was Arya menacing Sansa in episode 6 real or fake?
6
Here is how I rank the Game of Thrones seasons starting with the best: 4, 1, 3, 2, 6, 7, 5. Even 5 wasn't bad. It's just weaker comparatively. 7 is very good, but if given 10 episodes for more character moments and better pacing, it clearly could have been even better.
6
I agree with the general observation that the pace of Season 7 came at the cost of character development. The early seasons were a refreshingly different kind of TV show because the audience felt any character could be killed off. The truth is that, with Season 7, Game of Thrones has become too predictable. Sadly, it has lost a lot of its allure.
10
Oh please.
1
A major plot point I don't understand, that I'm hoping someone can explain to me: How is Jon the rightful heir to the Iron Throne? I understand the Mad King was his grandfather, but wouldn't the line of succession before Jon start with the Borathians? Another family had already interceded between the Mad King and the reign of the Lannisters, so how is Jon the "rightful" heir?
1
The view is that a usurper can not rightfully claim the throne nor can his descendants over the existing children of the overthrown ruler. By killing off all the heirs save Viserys and Dany, Robert tried to solidify his hold on the throne and the future of it by leaving no claimants that could gather support. Dany claims she is the rightful heir as the daughter of Aerys, and that the rules of succession should have applied to her but instead it was an overthrow which could revert back if the current line is overthrown (Cercei).
8
He only is if you consider Daenarys a legitimate claimant to the Iron Throne, in which case he has a better claim than her, being the legitimate son of the Mad King's eldest son, while she is the youngest child of the Mad King.
As for the Baratheons, they held the Iron Throne through right of conquest (a perfectly natural means of dynastic change in monarchies - just ask William the Conqueror), but there are no legitimate heirs left alive, just Gendry.
As for the Baratheons, they held the Iron Throne through right of conquest (a perfectly natural means of dynastic change in monarchies - just ask William the Conqueror), but there are no legitimate heirs left alive, just Gendry.
4
For one thing, as far as we know, there are no more Baratheons.
While the brother-sister incest is frowned on, the aunt-nephew romance could receive a papal dispensation. In the real War of the Roses, it has been suggested that Richard III had a romance with his niece Elizabeth of York, who subsequently married the Lancastrian heir Henry VII to unite the kingdom.
I was waiting for discovery of dragon eggs in the dragon pit, which we know only the mother of dragons can use. It seems inevitable that there would be a dragon fight over Winterfell. Presumably fire and dragon glass also kills the flying dead, though it seems just a knick with dragon glass shatters him, like kryptonite. I suspect all the dragons die, and we are left to battle on without that magic.
Cersei and her army of elephants will likely face the army of the dead. There has to be some comeuppance to her ambition. But King's Landing must be saved ... the kingdoms must unite in the end to save it. And that's the hope ... we know some of the noble will die, but the pack survives.
I was waiting for discovery of dragon eggs in the dragon pit, which we know only the mother of dragons can use. It seems inevitable that there would be a dragon fight over Winterfell. Presumably fire and dragon glass also kills the flying dead, though it seems just a knick with dragon glass shatters him, like kryptonite. I suspect all the dragons die, and we are left to battle on without that magic.
Cersei and her army of elephants will likely face the army of the dead. There has to be some comeuppance to her ambition. But King's Landing must be saved ... the kingdoms must unite in the end to save it. And that's the hope ... we know some of the noble will die, but the pack survives.
8
Agree about the incest thing. The thing about GRRM's books is that he writes about a world which hews closer to the way things usually turn out in real life, warts and all. Good guys don't get rewarded for their goodness, bad guys win, not every outcome is ideal. Also a world where incest is the natural order of things in some dynasties. This is true of our world too- arranged marriages are unthinkable for most of the Western world but practiced commonly in the East. The Tamils of South India marry their uncles and first cousins, as did most of the European nobility ( to keep the inheritance/land in the family). For the Targaryens, it was to preserve the ability to ride dragons- the source of their power. I think the ick factor would be stronger if they were siblings or if they actually knew they were related. They met as strangers and with no intention of falling in love.
7
I don't understand why this season wasn't run over ten one hour episodes - it would have allowed for more character development and would not have cost much. It has weakened the series.
However, I enjoyed the way much of last night's episode was spent on the Dragon Pit meeting - it was not rushed and had plenty of nuance and tension.
Littlefinger's show trial and death scene was a throwback to some of the unpredictability of earlier seasons - I did not see it coming, although putting Bran up on the stage made me think it was unlikely that Arya was going to get the chop.
I will miss Littlefinger's evil scheming - a great character. I am only sorry he did not get reunited with Varis (who needs more screen time) once more before he died. Their scenes were gold.
However, I enjoyed the way much of last night's episode was spent on the Dragon Pit meeting - it was not rushed and had plenty of nuance and tension.
Littlefinger's show trial and death scene was a throwback to some of the unpredictability of earlier seasons - I did not see it coming, although putting Bran up on the stage made me think it was unlikely that Arya was going to get the chop.
I will miss Littlefinger's evil scheming - a great character. I am only sorry he did not get reunited with Varis (who needs more screen time) once more before he died. Their scenes were gold.
30
I know its expensive, but i really wish enough episodes had been filmed to let deeper character development occur this season. It feels pressed.
38
Interestingly, one reason Battlestar Galactica became such a respected show was because they did not have a big special effects budget and had to pay writers instead to develop characters. GoT has the biggest budget of any show ever. The actors are fantastic but even they can't overcome some contrived silliness.
2
Jeremy, I couldn't wait to see your comments this morning. I quickly scrolled past all the hurricane news to find your article. All of them have been great fun to read, with just the right balance of serious and funny. Thanks for all of them, and I'll be watching for the next six.
20
One thing I liked about the episode was the way it used suspense as a kind of leitmotif. We had (1) the tension in the Dragonpit as the various antagonists came together, capped by the tense moment after the Hound opens the crate containing the white walker; (2) Tyrion's long walk into the Red Keep to meet Cersei one on one with the Mountain following behind him; (3) the face-off on the beach when we wonder whether Theon will revert back to Reek once again; (4) the moments in the Great Hall of Winterfell just before Sansa turns on Littlefinger; and (5) the final moments atop the wall just before the army of the dead arrives. Even if the outcomes weren't all that surprising, these moments had me on the edge of my seat more than once, and using them as structural glue was nicely done.
45
Agree ... the tension was in the scenes without powerful special effects.
I jumped out of my chair in surprise and shouted "YES" when smug Littlefinger was accused of treason. Powerful scene.
I jumped out of my chair in surprise and shouted "YES" when smug Littlefinger was accused of treason. Powerful scene.
5
I'm surprised about the predictability complaints -- this show was *always* predictable, with the notion that Dany, some Stark, and the Dragons would be fighting a sinister force from the North at some point, with the Lannisters playing their own end game.
If anything, the series has been too self-indulgent in its ultimately irrelevant broad cast of characters and story lines which tried to pass off breadth as depth. Once it killed many of them off, where it was going became obvious by default.
The shrouded mystery of the Night King and the army of the dead could use some more back story, though. What's their point and end game? What happens when all of Westeros is overrun by the dead and controlled by the Night King?
If anything, the series has been too self-indulgent in its ultimately irrelevant broad cast of characters and story lines which tried to pass off breadth as depth. Once it killed many of them off, where it was going became obvious by default.
The shrouded mystery of the Night King and the army of the dead could use some more back story, though. What's their point and end game? What happens when all of Westeros is overrun by the dead and controlled by the Night King?
19
They will learn to swim.
"passing off breadth as depth".
You nailed it.
Imagine this series as a tightly written 3 volume set -- no more than 3000 pages TOPS -- that resolved the storylines and cut out the really obscure minor characters. It would be a masterpiece, instead of a meandering series of novels that the author cannot even figure out to finish.
You nailed it.
Imagine this series as a tightly written 3 volume set -- no more than 3000 pages TOPS -- that resolved the storylines and cut out the really obscure minor characters. It would be a masterpiece, instead of a meandering series of novels that the author cannot even figure out to finish.
1
You and me both. That the ultimate end game was not anticipated, baffles me. From the opening of the show, we met the wights, the Stark family is the family designed for us to invest in emotionally, Jon as the Bastard of an honorable man, never jived with me, as soon as Robert talked of his sister to Ned and then later asked him to repeat the name of Jon's mom, that look that Ned gave him and him emphasizing he never said her name. I knew Jon was his sister and Rhaeger's, and that he was the true Prince.
Dany has the dragons- so she is essential, as it was stated that the dragons are part of the lore of the White Walkers, so it made sense re cause and effect that their magic was needed to breach the Wall.
Which made everything and everyone else part of the journey - an intriguing one for sue - to the end game.
Dany has the dragons- so she is essential, as it was stated that the dragons are part of the lore of the White Walkers, so it made sense re cause and effect that their magic was needed to breach the Wall.
Which made everything and everyone else part of the journey - an intriguing one for sue - to the end game.
I, too, Jeremy, want to sing your praises. I enjoy the show, but your recaps make it oh so much better. I can't wait to get to them, and the comments, on Monday morning. The withdrawal will be difficult.
27
Can somebody explain the opening scene, with Jaime and Bronn talking atop the castle wall (Highgarden?) to me? It seemed like it was lifted out of a different episode.
15
They weren't at Highgargen, they were in King's Landing watching Dany's army sit right outside the Castle. We always see the Castle from the side of the water (Blackwater Bay), but we were seeing them looking out at the other side.
4
They were actually at King's Landing - Dany's forces outside preceding the meeting, presumably in an effort to intimidate the Lannister forces.
3
They are and have been in King's Landing.
2
Jeremy, your episode recaps are almost as entertaining as the show itself. As a writer I appreciate what you manage to accomplish under a killer deadline, as well as the "filled-out" iteration we read Monday morning.
71
The best part of the current situation is that we are not quite sure that Tyrion rejoined the Lannister side when he observed Cersei's "pregnancy." That uncertainty will make all his actions next season more interesting. It is a good example of something best done off-screen.
The Sansa-Arya problem, however, was an important plot point that should have been resolved on screen. That's what stories are about: conflict resolution. It would not have ruined the surprise ending of Littlefinger because the point of that scene was for Littlefinger to be surprised. It would have been more delicious for the audience to have been in on the plan from the beginning.
The Sansa-Arya problem, however, was an important plot point that should have been resolved on screen. That's what stories are about: conflict resolution. It would not have ruined the surprise ending of Littlefinger because the point of that scene was for Littlefinger to be surprised. It would have been more delicious for the audience to have been in on the plan from the beginning.
5
I respectfully disagree. Not having the audience witness Cersei's bogus agreement to join the effort was classic "telling not showing", with the audience left with no reason to believe it had happened. In contrast, the drama of Sansa turning on Littlefinger was greatly heightened by the audience not being in on the secret, which would have rendered the reveal an anticlimax.
27
I see your point but I didn't see the need for anon-screen resolution.. I think they've plotted all along and the behaviors we saw were because given Littlefinger's reach, they did not know who they could trust or who was listening. I'm glad I was not in on it (I can't express my level of satisfaction). I rather enjoyed finding out the way we did and that in spite of their differences, family comes first.
3
I agree on each of your points DSM14. I think both of those reveals were superbly handled from a storytelling perspective. Surprising but inevitable Little Finger confrontation and a surprising (and unbelievable) Cersei alliance.
3
Agreed the the writers are taking too many shortcuts and focused too much on visuals. Banks and Dragons are two cases. Cersei's can go her own way because she has an army of mercenaries with Iron Bank money. Banks make money when they get paid back with interest. A mutually destructive civil war is bad for that generally. It is much more logically for the Bank to back Dany, who already has the larger army and more allies, quickly dispose of Cersei. Dany's plan to break the wheel, and a history with the Lanisters not withstanding. (They have a history with the Targaryens.) It gets even more improbable that they would back Cersei going alone in the face of the White Walker threat. Isn't the Iron Bank concerned at all that they will not be able to make back their money if, you know, everyone in Westeros is turned into the living dead? The presentation of greedy heartless bankers makes use too easily accept they would be with the "bad guy". But greedy heartless bankers would probably be on the other side here.
Also- The wight dragon is the worst idea ever. It looks cool and made for quick work of the wall, but it was overly destructive even for a dragon. At the rate we know dragons fly now and that amount of power, there is no need for an army of the dead. It would be at Winterfell in 5 minutes and it would be gone 30 second later, days before the walkers arrived.
Also- The wight dragon is the worst idea ever. It looks cool and made for quick work of the wall, but it was overly destructive even for a dragon. At the rate we know dragons fly now and that amount of power, there is no need for an army of the dead. It would be at Winterfell in 5 minutes and it would be gone 30 second later, days before the walkers arrived.
22
The Iron Bank was pleased with Cersei's repayment in full and decided to find her moving forward, unaware of the undead.
The zombie army is largely on foot and, cool as they are, moving at their own pace, growing with each battle. If the Night King rides in alone and is killed, that's the end of the entire army. Caution is the best strategy -- he has no idea what weapons await him in the south, other than the two other dragons outnumber his one.
The zombie army is largely on foot and, cool as they are, moving at their own pace, growing with each battle. If the Night King rides in alone and is killed, that's the end of the entire army. Caution is the best strategy -- he has no idea what weapons await him in the south, other than the two other dragons outnumber his one.
7
I know, but banks plan going forward not looking back. There's no easy cash available. Cersei already drained the easy access gold. Payback of the new debt would have to come from tax revenue if she wins or the spoils of war. Neither of which would there be much of if Cersei won. People point out that some people benefit from war, generally peace is better for lenders. Cersei has at best a 50/50 chance of winning even now. If she looses, they lose their investment, and have an angry new queen to deal with. Backing Dany from the start makes more sense. Like I said, we're swallowing evil bankers alining with the evil queen too easily.
I agree that they probably didn't know about the night walkers, though. I'm hoping that in the new season, that will change, and even they will turn against Cersei.
As far as the Night King, he's slow, not cautious. He does not seem to be concerned about what the living can put up against him, as he showed in Hardhome. (The gesture to Jon as he fled.) He' actually pretty arrogant and confident that he's going to slowly roll over them. Dany was tempted to use a Dragon on King's Landing. The presumably even more heartless Night King would have even less hesitation to whack Winterfell. I suppose he could wait to bait the Dany with her other dragons hoping to get them too. There is certain to be a sky battle between dragons in the next season and maybe Dragon Glass Scorpion Bolts.
I agree that they probably didn't know about the night walkers, though. I'm hoping that in the new season, that will change, and even they will turn against Cersei.
As far as the Night King, he's slow, not cautious. He does not seem to be concerned about what the living can put up against him, as he showed in Hardhome. (The gesture to Jon as he fled.) He' actually pretty arrogant and confident that he's going to slowly roll over them. Dany was tempted to use a Dragon on King's Landing. The presumably even more heartless Night King would have even less hesitation to whack Winterfell. I suppose he could wait to bait the Dany with her other dragons hoping to get them too. There is certain to be a sky battle between dragons in the next season and maybe Dragon Glass Scorpion Bolts.
Actually, I think you should pay more attention to the banker's line about how much his fellows will miss the interest payments the Lannisters made. The bankers don't mind if a whole debt is not paid so long as the interest keeps adding up--the Iron Bank didn't really WANT the whole debt paid off, but they did want to keep getting the interest. It's like those 'little loan' companies that offer loans for a couple of hundred dollars, then after the person has made a couple of payments, they call to off 'more cash'--all they really want is to keep the person on the hook to keep making payments.
This show gets such lavish coverage, I sometimes wonder if the Times is aware that it's fiction.
2
It has dragons. Really great dragons. I don't think the coverage is overdone. And it only lasts a few weeks.
24
REALLY great dragons!
18
If you don't like it and/or don't get that it's a phenomenon worthy of our distraction, then don't watch or read.
7
Too bad for Littlefinger that he could not get a pardon before sentencing....
212
Only if Trump was king.......
3
Tyrion was a little in love with Daenerys and I think his reaction was meant to reflect the recurring theme of his desire to be loved in return. Tyrion needs a win. Maybe Sansa will come to her senses?
69
You know, that's not a bad idea at all.
1
totally agree! He is the Best of the best of the whole saga.....she should think about him!
1
Agreed. He isn't supporting her just because (pause..."she will make a better world"), but because he loves her, a big reveal for the episode.
2
Number 1, it's fantasy, not reality, so accept what transpired in season 7.
Number 2, maybe George R.R. Martin can finally stop blogging about the NY Giants and give us his version of what happens, now that Winter is Here.
Number 2, maybe George R.R. Martin can finally stop blogging about the NY Giants and give us his version of what happens, now that Winter is Here.
20
Here we remind you of Neil Gaiman's excellent advice: "George R.R. Martin is not your bitch."
4
For all of you that were troubled by the time warps, plot holes, inconsistent use of logic, and predictable outcomes throughout this season: have no fear! GRRM will fix it all in the next two books. He's taking the time to weave all the strands together, and it will be well worth the wait. That's what I believe!
I also think the books are going to tell a different story. They might even have a different ending. Sure, GRRM gave Benioff and Weiss some sign posts to hit. But GRRM also used to write for TV. He knows what works on the screen vs. what works on the page. I think he'll exploit that, in a good way!
I also think the books are going to tell a different story. They might even have a different ending. Sure, GRRM gave Benioff and Weiss some sign posts to hit. But GRRM also used to write for TV. He knows what works on the screen vs. what works on the page. I think he'll exploit that, in a good way!
13
Oh, you sweet summer child. The books are never coming.
5
GRRM has some wonderful pieces of literary criticism dealing with genre and the stark difference between "the story" and "the narrative."
He is keenly aware of and quite comfortable with the fact that every story has more than one telling, which is a great feature in the alternating POV of each chapter in A Song of Ice and Fire.
And, yes, the story itself has been altered (*SPOILER*) since his text has Catelyn Stark reanimated, Brienne in a noose, and a completely different Aegon Targaryen landed on Westeros with the Golden Company that Euron (on HBO) is off to collect.
The Game of Thrones graphic novels are yet another telling, which Martin points out enthusiastically in their preface.
This is the nature of epics (think Ramayana) and oral literature (different versions of events in chapters of the Bible or the Shiji ["The Grand Scribes Records"]), or histories from two surviving sides of conflict. The traitors in the South, for example, still refer to the American Civil War as "the War of Northern Aggression"!
He is keenly aware of and quite comfortable with the fact that every story has more than one telling, which is a great feature in the alternating POV of each chapter in A Song of Ice and Fire.
And, yes, the story itself has been altered (*SPOILER*) since his text has Catelyn Stark reanimated, Brienne in a noose, and a completely different Aegon Targaryen landed on Westeros with the Golden Company that Euron (on HBO) is off to collect.
The Game of Thrones graphic novels are yet another telling, which Martin points out enthusiastically in their preface.
This is the nature of epics (think Ramayana) and oral literature (different versions of events in chapters of the Bible or the Shiji ["The Grand Scribes Records"]), or histories from two surviving sides of conflict. The traitors in the South, for example, still refer to the American Civil War as "the War of Northern Aggression"!
4
Assuming he writes them. I'm pretty sure we'll see "The Winds of Winter", I would not bet he will ever write "A Dream of Spring"...
4
The whole of the 7th season of Game of Thrones has been less than satisfying.
Some of the earlier episodes were painfully slow with too much talk and not enough action. The final two episodes were action packed but then both just had a rushed feel with so many dangling plot lines being brought to lightening speed resolution.
Tyrion's ineffectiveness has been a frustrating element but many of the other characters also seem to be floundering. It's as if the show can only do palace intrigue and fighting well, with little capacity for people working together and being just plain decent. Kind of rings true of the world today?
Some of the earlier episodes were painfully slow with too much talk and not enough action. The final two episodes were action packed but then both just had a rushed feel with so many dangling plot lines being brought to lightening speed resolution.
Tyrion's ineffectiveness has been a frustrating element but many of the other characters also seem to be floundering. It's as if the show can only do palace intrigue and fighting well, with little capacity for people working together and being just plain decent. Kind of rings true of the world today?
7
I actually liked all the exposition scenes as they tied together so many subplots. I also believe that Tyrion has not been ineffective. He didn't really believe his sister's offer to help, and the display at the Dragonpit convinced Jamie to abandon (maybe) Cersei, or at least to find his honor in his pledge to help defeat the WW.
2
It seems Jon is being set up for a tragic, noble death at the end of the series.
31
Well, that would solve our incest dilemma, and Dany and their son will prevail.
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
Certainly if Dany gets pregnant (and Cersei isn't), Jon isn't need for the future. We know the WW have to be defeated and we know a good ending isn't one where Cersei wins, so what else would be satisfying?
I think the more conventional plotting is a brilliant marketing strategy that was negotiated by George once it was clear the series was going to be "off book," thereby whetting the appetite for ALL of us obsessed fans, past readers and non-readers, to buy his books when they do come out so we can all bend the knee to our King of Fantasy and have a collective sigh of "ahhhh, that's more like it"! In fact, he is poised to singlehandedly overturn society's negative view of procrastination. ;) I know, I know, he takes his time writing 1500+ page novels. The wait is almost unbearable.
I loved the episode and my mouth was literally hanging open for the last 15 minutes as everything unfolded. I do get bothered by Bran's seemingly lack of direction.... c'mon, dude, have a couple of macchiatos and get moving on all that pertinent information!
I loved the episode and my mouth was literally hanging open for the last 15 minutes as everything unfolded. I do get bothered by Bran's seemingly lack of direction.... c'mon, dude, have a couple of macchiatos and get moving on all that pertinent information!
29
"n fact, he is poised to singlehandedly overturn society's negative view of procrastination. ;) I know, I know, he takes his time writing 1500+ page novels. The wait is almost unbearable. "
For me, the show has achieved the opposite. I loved the first 3 books, found 4 and 5 a bit (more so with 5) tedious, and by now have lost interest in the next book.
People complain that the show has gone simplistic once it went off book, but I disagree. To some degree the books have to do that eventually too. So far, GRRM has been simply adding more and more plot (I hated the "new" character at the end of the last one), but those plots do need to eventually converge to an end game. Otherwise we end up with a never ending series a la Wheel of time.
For me, the show has achieved the opposite. I loved the first 3 books, found 4 and 5 a bit (more so with 5) tedious, and by now have lost interest in the next book.
People complain that the show has gone simplistic once it went off book, but I disagree. To some degree the books have to do that eventually too. So far, GRRM has been simply adding more and more plot (I hated the "new" character at the end of the last one), but those plots do need to eventually converge to an end game. Otherwise we end up with a never ending series a la Wheel of time.
1
I had the distinct impression that this was supposed to be the last season of GOT, but surprise, surprise. I love GOT but personally I think 2-4 seasons is the most for any series. It just gets old and it loses its novelty. It becomes trite. I was looking forward to wrapping it up and moving on to other things. Are you listening HBO? Time to move on.
2
It was already decided last year. There are only 6 episodes left and it's over.
3
A Song of Ice and Fire is a base-7 world:
Faith of the Seven, seven kingdoms, and seven books in the series. It should have been a seven-season HBO series, but they've split the final season over two years.
Faith of the Seven, seven kingdoms, and seven books in the series. It should have been a seven-season HBO series, but they've split the final season over two years.
3
Three things, Jeremy.
1) The Jon/Dany union makes me a little queasy for the same reason incest is shunned in the first place: what it means for future generations. Targaryen inbreeding has resulted in a series of mad and unstable rulers. Just "flip a coin" and the Prince Who Was Promised is another Mad King.
2) Seeing him lurking under the stairs made it clear. Our boy Tyrion is in love, his Achilles heel, and the one thing that clouds his otherwise excellent judgment (witness his repeated bad calls when Shae was involved). Explains a lot.
3) I refuse to believe that Tormund Giantsbane was allowed to die off camera, and fully expect to see him roar back next season. Especially after last week's shenanigans. Til then, to borrow from the Princess Bride, I hope he rests well, and dreams of large women.
1) The Jon/Dany union makes me a little queasy for the same reason incest is shunned in the first place: what it means for future generations. Targaryen inbreeding has resulted in a series of mad and unstable rulers. Just "flip a coin" and the Prince Who Was Promised is another Mad King.
2) Seeing him lurking under the stairs made it clear. Our boy Tyrion is in love, his Achilles heel, and the one thing that clouds his otherwise excellent judgment (witness his repeated bad calls when Shae was involved). Explains a lot.
3) I refuse to believe that Tormund Giantsbane was allowed to die off camera, and fully expect to see him roar back next season. Especially after last week's shenanigans. Til then, to borrow from the Princess Bride, I hope he rests well, and dreams of large women.
94
I really want him to breed with Brienne.
I doubt Cersei's double cross will work well for her. When news of the army of the dead reaches the rest of the kingdom--and it will-- the lords and the people will realize who is fighting to save the people of Westeros and who is not.
My prediction: Cersei, Jon and Dany will all die and Tyrion will end up regent and guardian to Dany and Jon's baby (and maybe Cersei and Jaime's baby as well, if it exists.)
My prediction: Cersei, Jon and Dany will all die and Tyrion will end up regent and guardian to Dany and Jon's baby (and maybe Cersei and Jaime's baby as well, if it exists.)
6
The only thing that kept my interest this season is the acting, and even that is flailing at times. The story telling has really suffered. It's so predictable and has abondoned any attempt to surprise. Moments that should be full of emotion are so flat. The only real emotion I felt this year was at the death of Viserion. I hate that Jon has abondoned his Stark family and the North. The Scooby Doo hijinx of retrieving a wight. Believing that Cersei will now be on the right side. Ugh. I did find Baelish's death satisfying, but again so predictable.
12
It's definitely clear who the good actors are and who the tepid actors are.
Cersei, Tyrion, and Sansa are the best actors among the main characters.
Jon and Dany, maybe notsomuch.
Cersei, Tyrion, and Sansa are the best actors among the main characters.
Jon and Dany, maybe notsomuch.
1
Alfie Allen, who plays Theon, is also an amazing actor.
What exactly is the zombie dragon spewing? Loved Theon's look when his rival repeatedly hit him where it's supposed to hurt. Will Dany just accept that the throne belongs to Aegon, formerly known as Jon, or will she insist he has already bent the knee to her?
3
George RR Martin made it clear that in this world incest was ok...So Jon and Dany hooking up was not surprising and actually expected...people watching the show with me were rooting for it. And while you're right about the narrative. It went off the tracks with expedition up north (made no sense), the big moments this season still made it very enjoyable.
7
I refuse to believe that GRRM endorses hereditary rulers as even the best of bad solutions to human governance. Incest seems to go along with it, revealing one of its inherent problems.
The expedition up north made no sense on its own. However, as a plot point it was necessary. It gave Cersei one last chance (ok that was overkill) and more importantly it gave the Night King what he needed to go south, and a creditable counterpoint to Dany's remaining dragons.
The expedition up north made no sense on its own. However, as a plot point it was necessary. It gave Cersei one last chance (ok that was overkill) and more importantly it gave the Night King what he needed to go south, and a creditable counterpoint to Dany's remaining dragons.
But yet still that's how he wrote the stories!
And that is how the world of royalties and nobility have operated for millennia. Even today, all these royal houses in the different continents are related.
Even common people in Europe practiced it in general up to the 20th century. Other countries, they do, even in US, in some states, they do.
This story is not set in Earth's modern urban western cities, neither is it based on modern urban cities, but in European medieval times - when marrying close relatives was very common in order for the family to remain powerful.
And that is how the world of royalties and nobility have operated for millennia. Even today, all these royal houses in the different continents are related.
Even common people in Europe practiced it in general up to the 20th century. Other countries, they do, even in US, in some states, they do.
This story is not set in Earth's modern urban western cities, neither is it based on modern urban cities, but in European medieval times - when marrying close relatives was very common in order for the family to remain powerful.
A really good episode that went a fair ways to making up for last weeks debacle. Jonerys doesn't particularly bother me, nor does that fact that some of the plot lines have been concluded in a "predictable" fashion. Good storytelling demands satisfying conclusions.
I was surprised by the speed of Baelish's demise. Such a major character, one who as much as anyone drove the story for the entire series, taken off the map in a blink of an eye. Perhaps the show would have been better served if Sansa sent him to the dungeons to await his punishment, allowing for one last conversation between the two as he awaits his execution?
The one issue I have is with Cersei allowing Jaime to leave. He knows her plans, he knows that she plans on betraying Jonerys. Even if she doesn't kill him, she can't allow him to leave her side and tell others of her plans.
I was surprised by the speed of Baelish's demise. Such a major character, one who as much as anyone drove the story for the entire series, taken off the map in a blink of an eye. Perhaps the show would have been better served if Sansa sent him to the dungeons to await his punishment, allowing for one last conversation between the two as he awaits his execution?
The one issue I have is with Cersei allowing Jaime to leave. He knows her plans, he knows that she plans on betraying Jonerys. Even if she doesn't kill him, she can't allow him to leave her side and tell others of her plans.
9
Littlefinger died like a Stark -- it was quick, brutal and surprising, just like Ned's beheading and the Red Wedding.
4
Question please! How was Euron's departure going to help Cercei if they had plotted together, and since they didnt know dead walkers can't swim ahead of time, what would his rouse for departure have been? Now that Euron is dead how does this shift effect her plans?
She'd have to kill him to prevent him from leaving, as she did threaten to do. But apparently, however ruthless she may have become, she still has one weakness, him.
cool !! They give good title "Shrinking Pains" ! btw they looks elegant in these leather costumes
1
It's interesting how much Ned continues to be a part of the story even years after his death, with his legacy a clear part of Jon's, Theon's, Arya's and Sansa's actions this episode (btw anyone else think at some point Theon will return the favor and tell Jon "you don't have to choose. You're a Targaryen, and you're a Stark"?)
It was interesting to me however the conversation between Arya and Sansa post Littlefinger - when Sansa says "you're the one that did it" and Arya responds "but you passed the sentence" - in an episode where Ned's lessons influenced so many things, it struck me as odd that one of the first ones that we viewers witnessed - "the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword" - was so clearly contradicted, which I wouldn't even have realized had the writers not so obviously included the reference in the sisters conversation. Wonder if it means anything.... (probably not)
It was interesting to me however the conversation between Arya and Sansa post Littlefinger - when Sansa says "you're the one that did it" and Arya responds "but you passed the sentence" - in an episode where Ned's lessons influenced so many things, it struck me as odd that one of the first ones that we viewers witnessed - "the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword" - was so clearly contradicted, which I wouldn't even have realized had the writers not so obviously included the reference in the sisters conversation. Wonder if it means anything.... (probably not)
21
I noted that too - and took it as a signal that they are working as a team - in unison. Almost like co-rulers.
19
i also think, given the chauvinist customs of the Westeros, noble Ladies (if so empowered) aren't expected to heft a sword or weapon beyond a knitting needle. Naturally, as such, when passing sentences of death they would have an executioner to do the bloody deed.
Yes, the girls are working in tandem to do what their father would have done. Together, they figured out what to do, and together, they took action. Sansa passed the sentence, Arya carried it out. Even Bran showed up in solidarity, gave testimony, and backed his family, as if he still lived on the planet and weren't floating around in the ether, spying on the past.
3
I liked this episode, a lot! Arya and Sansa not letting themselves be manipulated, Tyrion and Jamie calling Cersei's bluff (Jamie did question her pregnancy, didn't he?), the beautiful dragon scenes.
Random thought. What was all that green fire doing in King' s Landing, and might Cersei come to regret it's hasty use?
Random thought. What was all that green fire doing in King' s Landing, and might Cersei come to regret it's hasty use?
11
Daenerys and Jon hooking up doesn't bother me at all. It's the joining of the two finest families, the Starks and the Targaryens. It's a union that might have permitted peace in Westeros, had Rhaegar and Lyanna been allowed to follow their hearts.
11
I could be misremembering but I thought in the first book Dany talks about Targaryens marrying their sisters? Maybe incest is not such a big deal for them, and this Nephew Jon thing won't be so gross to her?
3
A random list of thoughts:
1. I wish Rhaegar didn't look so much like creepy Viserys!
2. Bronn uses eyeliner, right?
3. I will really miss Tormund. RIP buddy!
4. Why didn't Jon tell Cersai that you can kill the undead with Valerian steel, too?
5. What is it that's coming for Sir Gregor? Sandor was so cryptic!
6. Some people say Bran can see the future, but he made it clear it's only the past and present.
7. Lots of honoring of Ned tonight. Sweet.
A "FINALLY" list:
1. Finally Littlefinger gets his! Sansa's list of charges was amazing...
2. Finally Bran manages to actually communicate something useful and timely!
3. Finally Jamie walks away from Cersai!
4. Finally Theon is on his way to redemption! For Yara!
5. Finally Jon takes off that hot fur cloak and that stiff leather jerkin and makes himself more comfortable!
6. Finally we know how the dead make it past the wall!
7. Finally (the most unexpected and amazing event of all): Cersai turns down a goblet of wine!
1. I wish Rhaegar didn't look so much like creepy Viserys!
2. Bronn uses eyeliner, right?
3. I will really miss Tormund. RIP buddy!
4. Why didn't Jon tell Cersai that you can kill the undead with Valerian steel, too?
5. What is it that's coming for Sir Gregor? Sandor was so cryptic!
6. Some people say Bran can see the future, but he made it clear it's only the past and present.
7. Lots of honoring of Ned tonight. Sweet.
A "FINALLY" list:
1. Finally Littlefinger gets his! Sansa's list of charges was amazing...
2. Finally Bran manages to actually communicate something useful and timely!
3. Finally Jamie walks away from Cersai!
4. Finally Theon is on his way to redemption! For Yara!
5. Finally Jon takes off that hot fur cloak and that stiff leather jerkin and makes himself more comfortable!
6. Finally we know how the dead make it past the wall!
7. Finally (the most unexpected and amazing event of all): Cersai turns down a goblet of wine!
117
3. - He's not dead.
4. - Maybe because there's some Valerian Steel left in King's landing, but only Dragonglass in Dragonstone. Showing Cercei that she needs Dany's help along with everyone else's to defeat the dead.
5. The Hound has always made it clear that he would be the one to end his brother. So, The Hound is the one coming for him.
6. He can see the future. I think he's just keeping that to himself.
7. I love that they continue to honor Ned. He was such an honest, loyal man. Something that apparently is hard to come by in the 7 Kingdoms. Even Cersei mentioning him last night was awesome.
4. - Maybe because there's some Valerian Steel left in King's landing, but only Dragonglass in Dragonstone. Showing Cercei that she needs Dany's help along with everyone else's to defeat the dead.
5. The Hound has always made it clear that he would be the one to end his brother. So, The Hound is the one coming for him.
6. He can see the future. I think he's just keeping that to himself.
7. I love that they continue to honor Ned. He was such an honest, loyal man. Something that apparently is hard to come by in the 7 Kingdoms. Even Cersei mentioning him last night was awesome.
9
Point 1: Yes me too! Rhaegar would have been a great 'special appearance by' opportunity with someone other than a Viserys look-alike (maybe it was the same actor?)
Point 3: I'm betting Tormund survives
Point 2: I think Bronn gets his eyes done by the same guy from "Lost"
Finally point 7: I actually expected the wine to be poisoned, Tyrion walk out like he secured a truce then die on the way back to Dragonstone.
Point 3: I'm betting Tormund survives
Point 2: I think Bronn gets his eyes done by the same guy from "Lost"
Finally point 7: I actually expected the wine to be poisoned, Tyrion walk out like he secured a truce then die on the way back to Dragonstone.
1
4. Jon killed the wight with his dragon-glass sword, telling Cersei so immediately afterwards; and 5. The Mountain hates his brother for holding his head down in a fire when they were children. His entire life has been bent toward revenge. The Mountain himself is coming for his brother, Ser Gregor.
I'm glad the season didn't end with a cliffhanger. Jaime about to get crushed by the Mountain, whatever. Gratitude to the showrunners for being so kind.
But I have a serious Credibility Gap issue. Someone tell me when Cersei and Euron Greyjoy conspired to have him pretend to be scared witless by the wight and instead go fetch the Golden Company? They meet the wight; it tries to chew the scenery (or, failing that, Cersei); Euron bails instanter; and now we have a villainous plot between them? Did they mind-meld in that moment? Were they whispering coolly in each other's ear while the wight was straining at its chain? Someone help me out here, please.
But I have a serious Credibility Gap issue. Someone tell me when Cersei and Euron Greyjoy conspired to have him pretend to be scared witless by the wight and instead go fetch the Golden Company? They meet the wight; it tries to chew the scenery (or, failing that, Cersei); Euron bails instanter; and now we have a villainous plot between them? Did they mind-meld in that moment? Were they whispering coolly in each other's ear while the wight was straining at its chain? Someone help me out here, please.
13
I assumed that they made a plan in advance for him to make up something to look like he was leaving her. He had to be present so they didn't question where he was, and then he would pretend to be scared so he could make his exit without arousing suspicion. The agenda of the meeting wasn't secret, so even if Cersei wasn't genuinely scared prior to seeing the thing, they could certainly make a plan to pretend to be.
5
Plus discussion of the Golden Company had already been held. That was in the works. Misdirection could easily have been planned in advance. This is something Cersei is good at since she stole Tyrion's intelligence this season.
4
I was wondering about that too: if they didn't know about the wight, how could they make a plan? But you're probably right--they just cooked up a scheme for him to apparently bail in some dramatic public way, and he improvised his excuse on the spot.
Just happy Jaime was not whacked.
21
Whatever the relationship between Jon and Dany turns out to be, their child will be the ultimate heir to all Westeros and Cersie's child will be his/her rival. There's a whole new arc for the saga - AND - both children will be born of incest, though Jon & Dany's child will be a degree or two less so. Anyway, the point is that the charge of incest will not be de-legitimizing, since it applies to both. Its a pity Westeros is an entirely different world from our own and its noble houses are thus unable to take a lesson from what became of the Spanish Hapsburgs as a result of too much inbreeding. The last of that line, Charles II, was pathetic.
11
The main problem with Cersei's incest wasn't just that it was incest - it was that she was Queen at the time and those children were supposed to be King Robert's. The fact that they were someone else's (anyone else's) is high treason. The children being the product of incest with her twin brother only added a layer of ickiness - the crime though was treason.
1
That's true but I refer to the child Cersie is now evidently carrying, assuming Tyrion's remark to that effect is accurate. Of course I'm making the assumption that it is by Jamie again but that may not be the case
Those two (((D&D))) guys have no soul. The show is as dead inside as one of their zombies.
1
I was very disappointed to see the dragon rip a hole in the wall in seconds. It seemed to invalidate everything about the Night's Watch. So much story, culture, characters, lore, and meaning, evaporated.
It seems like the main purpose of this season was to give the undead army a dragon, because after all is said and done that's about all that happened.
It seems like the main purpose of this season was to give the undead army a dragon, because after all is said and done that's about all that happened.
11
Dothraki boot camp lesson #2 -- how to apply eyeliner and smear it appropriately.
14
Why do the marching dead need overcoats?
6
They seem to be wearing the clothing that they were wearing when killed, and then made to rise again.
3
I assumed they were wearing coats when they were living and no one bothered removing them after they were killed.
1
And shoes?
Your review makes me think you're too critically immersed or cynical to enjoy this show for what it is. This was an extraordinarily (for this show) satisfying resolution to years-long tensions simmering in the narrative. The dragon pit scenes were some of the best-directed television I've ever seen (seriously, think for a minute about how difficult it would be to string together that many years-long dynamics in one set piece). If you can't take an hour+ of television like this and let it wash over you with emotion and catharsis, you're way too in the weeds.
14
You can never really argue taste. The emotional impact of this season couldn't wash over me because the things I loved about the books and story were missing for me, and many, this season. It's tough to appreciate this season for many because it seemed overly contrived. Glad you enjoyed it though.
4
It's fantasy! All these comments are so negative as if the writers of said comments could have even come close to coming up with a story of such imagination. One commented about people in medieval times not knowing about fetal alcohol syndrome. Sit back and enjoy the greatest show on television. Geez.
24
In a buns competition, who wins? Darius or Jon?
5
Jon for me! I literally gasped :)
7
Oh me too - magnificent derriere King Aegon!
3
Ok ok...aren't Tyrion and Sansa still legally married?
Where is Jamie going? Where is the Hound going?
TORMUND!!
I think Tyrion knows about Jon, or he is lingering outside their door because he realizes she is going to get knocked up before she's on the throne and it will Greatly Complicate Things. As far as Auntie/Nephew love, hey, at least they aren't twins. But Jon won't stand for it, he's too principled. I see Cersei winning it in the end. Sorry my dudes.
Where is Jamie going? Where is the Hound going?
TORMUND!!
I think Tyrion knows about Jon, or he is lingering outside their door because he realizes she is going to get knocked up before she's on the throne and it will Greatly Complicate Things. As far as Auntie/Nephew love, hey, at least they aren't twins. But Jon won't stand for it, he's too principled. I see Cersei winning it in the end. Sorry my dudes.
2
They were legally married but they never consummated the marriage, which in the 7 Kingdoms is absolutely necessary.
Sansa's marriage to Ramsey was after Tyrion, and that marriage was legitimized by the failure to consummate the Tyrion arrangement. I would love to see Tyrion and Sansa together, now that she's grown up some.
1
It's sad to me that Sansa has never known real love. Sansa and Jorah!!!
Clearly, Westeros needs a better incest prevention app, like they use in Iceland (where everyone is named something like Björnsson or Sigmundsdottir). Three-eyed Bran is a bit too lackadaisical in this regard.
4
None of these characters deserves to rule. How could all these leaders go off on a harebrained scheme to capture a wight without enough dragonstone weapons? This was not merely a distraction but handed over a dragon to the Night King to help him break the Wall!
Who on Westeros is overseeing the mining and preparation of dragonstone weapons? These Dothraki hooligans will need some training at the very least to fight the White Walkers and the Unsullied will need direction or they will just go and increase the army of the dead. Instead of hooking up and screwing up they need to focus on the task at hand - they could have just ignored Cersei - even Sansa had the sense to prepare for the war by sending Brienne - there was no reason for ALL the A team to schlep over to Cersei. They have all lost the plot!
Who on Westeros is overseeing the mining and preparation of dragonstone weapons? These Dothraki hooligans will need some training at the very least to fight the White Walkers and the Unsullied will need direction or they will just go and increase the army of the dead. Instead of hooking up and screwing up they need to focus on the task at hand - they could have just ignored Cersei - even Sansa had the sense to prepare for the war by sending Brienne - there was no reason for ALL the A team to schlep over to Cersei. They have all lost the plot!
9
I cheered when Littlefinger got his - the Starks remain united. Was nice to see Bran open his mouth for once - he is a shadow that seems to have no purpose other than to show us what has happened in flashbacks. My biggest worry is for Tormund - please let him survive to finally get together with Brienne!!
17
Predictions aside, Danaerys could give birth to another dragon with the power to blow away its zombie sibling. Now that would be something!
9
I won't get into a critique of Season 7, but I do wonder, now that the series has far outstripped Martin's published writings, if Martin will still be able to write his own story line as he intended it, or if the direction of the series will dictate what he puts down on paper. Usually, one reads the book and then sees a movie version and can compare the differences to see if it was a worthy effort. Now, we'll have to read to discover if the series was being true to his future writings, assuming either Martin or we survive long enough to witness the completion and publication of what could be two more books.
I can't imagine Martin not being affected by the show. But it's his own fault, by selling his not-yet-finished epic to HBO and then falling behind in completing it. There are many comments here about how the show is becoming rushed or obvious or whatever, but that is part of the price of moving towards resolution. I don't think Martin actually wants to resolve anything, which is one reason he's stuck. So it's left to the show to do the dirty work.
3
GRRM has already stated that he's thought new plot twists that made it into the new books but not the show. The show has also deviated significantly in several plot lines- most notably Brienne and Sansa's.
GRRM has said that he stopped watching the show a couple of season back (I believe season 5). They still consult with him on certain things and he did give them that amazing bit of information that made for the incredible "Hold the Door" episode, but he has been out of the loop with the show for quite some time to focus on his writing. I don't think the show will influence him at all. His mind is too great for that.
This episode was mostly a let down after the brilliant episode 6. Most of seasons 6 and season 7 have been slow ponderous episodes about posturing for the battles to come, but nary a white walker to be seen. The early seasons had it all -- battles, intrigue, risque scenes, surprise. But the later seasons not so much. I'll of course have to watch season 8, but my loyalty to the show is wearing thin.
4
It seems D&D are doing something right this season. Season 7 may just go on to be the most discussed season after the show wraps up.
Some people post in one breath that it's predictable but go on to complain about scenes not unfolding the way thought it would.
Others complain about how fast it is and mostly action
...And others complain about how "slow" and "ponderous" it has been "for battles to come". Not enough battles this season?
Some people post in one breath that it's predictable but go on to complain about scenes not unfolding the way thought it would.
Others complain about how fast it is and mostly action
...And others complain about how "slow" and "ponderous" it has been "for battles to come". Not enough battles this season?
In the end, the show becomes dumb, predictable, and monotonous. All the witty, vicious characters become plain and dull, merely filling a spot. The plots are mediocre at best, and lack the emotional intensity of previous seasons. And the plots become as dumb as a third class comedy on occasions: I agree with one comment that the dragons could have done serious damage to the Dead. In fact, if they have had tried and had luck on their side, they could have burned all the Army of the Dead into ashes. Three dragons with such fire power can have a formation that won't be broken and defend any single threat.
3
It can't have the "emotional intensity of previous seasons" because then -things were being set up. Now it's time for the end game which was always expected, so it's more wars (action sequences), less intrigue. It's another phase which is still excellently done.
Also, who has ever known battles to be neatly done? Look through history, even today, it's not necessarily the side with more arsenal and or troops that win, and even if they win the war, they may lose a battle here or there. And those who win battles may lose the war (Robb Stark)
Also, who has ever known battles to be neatly done? Look through history, even today, it's not necessarily the side with more arsenal and or troops that win, and even if they win the war, they may lose a battle here or there. And those who win battles may lose the war (Robb Stark)
A night for family reunions indeed, and for revelations: Aegon of the Houses Stark and Targaryen, Sixth of His Name, Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, King in the North, King of the Andals and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, and Protector of the Realm
43
Suddenly Jon can give Dany a run for her money in terms of all the titles.
I don't understand the constant bashing of Tyrion both inside and outside the show. The alternative plan that Dany wanted to employ was to burn Kings Landing with her dragons and sack it with the Dothraki and vengefful Dornishmen. Yara' defeat was due to her being a horrible admiral. Presumably her fleet was going to be sailing out there at night, whether Tyrion said something or not. Nobody argued specifically for dragons to go on a search and destroy mission to locate Euron' navy.
The plan to obtain a weight made sense and still does. Cersei is not the only person who matters-- her stupidity in the face of a demonstrated threat is likely to lead to a rebellion on the part of Jaime or even others who might be interested in surviving. The fact that dragons are vulnerable to white walker spears would have come out sooner or later. Bran crossed the wall, which probably allows white walkers to do so. Iron gates are not an obstacle to giants -- we saw that in season 4.
My impression is that everyone mouths the same stupid criticisms repeatedly without thinking about them. Just a tv show, but real life politics is the same.
The plan to obtain a weight made sense and still does. Cersei is not the only person who matters-- her stupidity in the face of a demonstrated threat is likely to lead to a rebellion on the part of Jaime or even others who might be interested in surviving. The fact that dragons are vulnerable to white walker spears would have come out sooner or later. Bran crossed the wall, which probably allows white walkers to do so. Iron gates are not an obstacle to giants -- we saw that in season 4.
My impression is that everyone mouths the same stupid criticisms repeatedly without thinking about them. Just a tv show, but real life politics is the same.
5
Good lord some of you are never satisfied! It's a tv show, one of the best ones ever. Too predictable for you? Then Stop watching because obviously you know how it ends, right?
20
I don't want to believe it, but I think that look from Tyrion means he betrayed Dany and Jon with Cersei. All that talk of how much he loved her children, then he finds out she's pregnant, then we don't see the rest of the conversation but suddenly she's agreeing to help. I think they made some kind of deal (and Dany is due one more betrayal as per her prophecy).
35
I agree with many others that since the series outstripped George RR Martin's writing, it has become much too predictable. The show runners seem to have eased off the risk-taking in the narrative that has been Martin's premier achievement.
So, last night, wouldn't it have been more in the original concept if Cersi murdered Tyrion, as she clearly wanted to do? Or Sansa falling for Littlefinger's deceitful maneuvers and executing Aria?
Last night's finale, like all of Season 7, came across as a sodden narrative filled with absurd coincidences and the shuffling of characters on and off the stage with no other purpose than to be finally together in the same scene.
And by the way, since the wights are the resurrected dead, but dead nonetheless, why do they wear heavy coats and boots, all wrapped up against the cold? Details in such an epic have to ring true.
So, last night, wouldn't it have been more in the original concept if Cersi murdered Tyrion, as she clearly wanted to do? Or Sansa falling for Littlefinger's deceitful maneuvers and executing Aria?
Last night's finale, like all of Season 7, came across as a sodden narrative filled with absurd coincidences and the shuffling of characters on and off the stage with no other purpose than to be finally together in the same scene.
And by the way, since the wights are the resurrected dead, but dead nonetheless, why do they wear heavy coats and boots, all wrapped up against the cold? Details in such an epic have to ring true.
7
I just thought they wore what they died in. Their garments' state of decay seems commensurate with the body's.
22
The wights are wearing all that stuff because that's what they were wearing when they died and rose up. You can see it's rotting away...I would be more concerned if they bothered to take it off.
Also, I'll take satisfaction over originality any day of the week with this series. We need some frakkin' hope!
Also, I'll take satisfaction over originality any day of the week with this series. We need some frakkin' hope!
3
Why are the wights still clothed in their heavy coats? As every zombie aficionado knows, you are stuck with the clothes that you die in.
4
So, without Tyrion's terrible plan to capture a wight (which led to a zombie dragon), the wall never would have fell, and everyone would have been safe... ?
140
Irony is so delicious!
Yes, without Jon Snow Westeros would have been safe. Jon and his companions have done a lot more harm than good. History's greatest fools.
That is unless Westeros ends up in better shape after the zombie war than before, despite the loss of so many lives. Possible but unlikely.
That is unless Westeros ends up in better shape after the zombie war than before, despite the loss of so many lives. Possible but unlikely.
In his defense, he did try to convince Dany not to fly north...but, yeah, Tyrion has given terrible advice all season.
It is the inevitable influence that popular entertainment has upon written works. If a great book survives the influences of greed and obeisance to trend, it is a miracle. Here, they have ultimately failed once again. I was initially thrilled with the interpretation, but this artificial rush to end it in the time allotted by HBO has ruined it for me to the point that I am no longer interested. HBO is really losing it's grip on the reputation it used to have for daring and innovation, and apparently has finally succumbed to the pressures of the need for outsized profit. Too bad!
23
This is another common criticism, but it is false. The show does have its illogical moments, though most of season 7 was fine, just excessively rushed. But it did have some good character moments. Season 6 with its Arya arc was terrible. The Dorne arc was terrible, but it was bad in the books, just in different ways.
But Martin ruined his own series with books 4 and 5. He killed off some of the most compelling characters and replaced them with duds, one of whom was killed off after boring the reader to death for several chapters. The remaining characters just spin their wheels pointlessly and have become dull themselves. Perhaps 20 percent of this train wreck could be salvaged. The show actually improved on the books in some ways. Martin created a fascinating worl with some great characters,but he has spent the past two books making them dull and inconsistent with their earlier selves.
But Martin ruined his own series with books 4 and 5. He killed off some of the most compelling characters and replaced them with duds, one of whom was killed off after boring the reader to death for several chapters. The remaining characters just spin their wheels pointlessly and have become dull themselves. Perhaps 20 percent of this train wreck could be salvaged. The show actually improved on the books in some ways. Martin created a fascinating worl with some great characters,but he has spent the past two books making them dull and inconsistent with their earlier selves.
16
I agree.
I suppose everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how misguided. Here, there are such obvious plot holes and contrivances that it truly requires that logic be checked to continue to enjoy the show. Perhaps it easier to be a passive consumer by watching television to prefer it to a well crafted written story, or perhaps the flashiness of the sets and locations blinds viewers to the weaknesses in the plot.
1
Not to be (too) cynical, but the real evil force here is $$$. The show has gone into two truncated final seasons, where at least four more seasons would have been needed because the actors quite rightly want to capitalize on their marketability while the show is still "hot." While we're at it: I don't think Martin has writer's block at all. I believe he's holding the books back to capitalize on the show and the curiosity of how they will be different. It is self-diversifying his brand. Iron Bank indeed!
47
If $$$ was the motivation, why would they cut the seasons short and end the show? It's incredibly popular and successful. You'd think they'd want to drag it on as long as they could and milk it for every penny they could.
2
I think you're misunderstanding what the market forces are here. HBO and the actors both would want the show to go on forever. HBO gets subscriptions. The actors get a steady paycheck AND annual marketing for their skills and brand that will fade as soon as the show is over.
2
Well, the real force is always $$$$. However, I think GRRM really has a case of world-class writer's block and in fact, he will never, ever finish this series. He ran out of steam many years ago. That the TV series utterly eclipsed (and now, superseded) the novels is some kind of ultimate irony.
1
I enjoyed the finale and thought they brought things together very well. I especially liked that we got a little more character and conversation. It was a relief after the last episode's frenetic pacing, violence and silly "just in the nick of time" rescues. Great to see Bran, Sansa and Arya coming together as such an effective team. Can't wait for the final season!
46
In previous seasons I suspected Varys might be one of the most influential characters on the show. This season it seems as if he had almost no lines and did little more than stand in the background when he was on screen. Hopefully he has more of a role next season. If there is no time for character-driven intrigue he probably won't. Perhaps his primarily role has been completed and his time has come and gone.
12
His conversation with Melisandre at the beginning of this season leads me to believe he has a big role to play in the conclusion.
6
For what it's worth, he *did* have an important role in the progression of the story in Book 5. But since there is no Book 6 or 7, Varys seems to be one of those relegated to the bench because he's not a warrior (though again, the books did tease that as a possibility). He's been made increasingly one-dimensional in the show.
Shame! ;-)
Shame! ;-)
One could argue Varys doesn't have the network of spies he once had. While in Westoros he had to be more proactive to survive, competing with the likes of Balish.
I think my main reservation with how the story is developing is that I don't feel the masterful hand of George R R Martin at the helm. One of the things that made GoT stand out was its complexity and its creativity in story telling. It feels as though more conventional writers are driving the show now, to its detriment.
121
The masterful hand that gave us a new claimant to the throne out of nowhere, that introduced a new character that travelled, bored people to death and was killed, that wrote endless descriptions of food, heraldry, turtles, showed a teenage girls who was previously a dragon queen mooning over an absurd mercenary, transformed Tyrion fro one of the best characters into a bore, wrote a cliffhanger for Brienbe, got her out without explanation and set up another cliffhanger? Martin loves his cliffhangers. Many of them are silly,even in the earlier books, such as when one character hit another on the head with an ax. Surprise. He did it with the flat part and because the victim must have a skull made of titanium, the victim wasn't badly hurt.
In many respects the show improved on the silliness and bloated excesses of Martin's books. In some respects the show was worse. Sometimes they are both brilliant, though not always because of Martin in the case of the show.
In many respects the show improved on the silliness and bloated excesses of Martin's books. In some respects the show was worse. Sometimes they are both brilliant, though not always because of Martin in the case of the show.
7
True, this season has been much more typical Hollywood-style storytelling. From the plot gimmicks to the dialogue to the big action scenes, it has been much more like a big-budget action movie.
2
GRRM is an executive producer of the show and by his own admission is a big part of the script development for the series. So his input is still there.
Brienne, as always, connected Jaime to his better self.
Soon as the "new song" ( as described in the episode) my impression was that this would ultimately be about Jaime and Brienne. Even with the history in the novels of Hands of Gold the way it was presented in this season, the symbolism suggested that Jaime would turn away from his cold heart and murderous sister toward the humanity that his relationship with Brienne was bringing out in him.
Agree with your assessment of the finale - it did not give any surprises except for Jaime leaving his sister and making the choice to follow his duty and promise to fight against the Night King and defend the North.
So glad that the Stark sisters were equal to Littlefinger and his final attempt to betray Sansa and the Starks for his own agenda. Lovely the way their scene remembering the lesson from their father was presented - a wonderful way to remember Ned Stark and all their family.
Soon as the "new song" ( as described in the episode) my impression was that this would ultimately be about Jaime and Brienne. Even with the history in the novels of Hands of Gold the way it was presented in this season, the symbolism suggested that Jaime would turn away from his cold heart and murderous sister toward the humanity that his relationship with Brienne was bringing out in him.
Agree with your assessment of the finale - it did not give any surprises except for Jaime leaving his sister and making the choice to follow his duty and promise to fight against the Night King and defend the North.
So glad that the Stark sisters were equal to Littlefinger and his final attempt to betray Sansa and the Starks for his own agenda. Lovely the way their scene remembering the lesson from their father was presented - a wonderful way to remember Ned Stark and all their family.
112
Oooh, I love your second paragraph! As Jaime rode away, they showed a very purposeful shot of him looking at his gold hand, and covering it with a glove. He never covers it!
1
The scene with Jaime covering his golden hand and simultaneously becoming aware of the snow falling was interesting. Covering up the old self and heading alone to his redeemed self, which Brienne has laid the groundwork for already. I'd like to see these two get together even though I love Tormund's love struck goofiness.
Some especially good performances in this episode from Tyrion, Cersei, Jamie, Littlefinger, and Sansa. Sam's expressions as he listened to Bran, or sought for ways to reply to him, were hilarious.
The "incest" thing does not bother me one bit. Jon and Danaerys did not grow up together, they do not know each other, they both think he is someone else, and aside from all that, medieval aristocrats intermarried regularly to preserve family estates and titles. It would be creepier if Jon married Sansa, for instance. They were raised as brother and sister, precisely as Jamie and Cersei were raised -- that is what makes Jamie's and Cersei's relationship icky to the nth degree.
Honestly, why does Bran think it is so important to spill the beans about Jon's parentage? Because he is the "rightful" heir to the Iron Throne? If Jon marries Dany, they wind up ruling together anyway; if she's queen, all the better, because she likes ruling and he doesn't. But now I'm bummed about the idea that one or both will die and that some baby we know nothing about will rule. How can an audience care about that? It's like Fortinbras marching in at the end of _Hamlet_ to take over Denmark; Shakespeare didn't bother to write a sequel chronicling the adventures of Fortinbras!
On a side note, I also liked Jon's speech about why he doesn't lie, and why a country can't thrive under the leadership of liars.
The "incest" thing does not bother me one bit. Jon and Danaerys did not grow up together, they do not know each other, they both think he is someone else, and aside from all that, medieval aristocrats intermarried regularly to preserve family estates and titles. It would be creepier if Jon married Sansa, for instance. They were raised as brother and sister, precisely as Jamie and Cersei were raised -- that is what makes Jamie's and Cersei's relationship icky to the nth degree.
Honestly, why does Bran think it is so important to spill the beans about Jon's parentage? Because he is the "rightful" heir to the Iron Throne? If Jon marries Dany, they wind up ruling together anyway; if she's queen, all the better, because she likes ruling and he doesn't. But now I'm bummed about the idea that one or both will die and that some baby we know nothing about will rule. How can an audience care about that? It's like Fortinbras marching in at the end of _Hamlet_ to take over Denmark; Shakespeare didn't bother to write a sequel chronicling the adventures of Fortinbras!
On a side note, I also liked Jon's speech about why he doesn't lie, and why a country can't thrive under the leadership of liars.
489
"...country can't survive under the leadership of liars." Seems like a nod to current events?
39
I agree. You aptly pointed out why Cersei and Jamie are disgusting, having grown up together, while Jon and Dany are not. I rewound and re-watched the two of them in bed together a couple of times. Two of the sexiest people on television. I'm fine with it.
9
That was one of the highlights of the episode for me - glad they put that in the finale especially with how Cersei did nothing but tells lies.
6
Overall I loved this episode thoroughly. Littlefinger's end caught me totally by surprise, and was excellently done. Eastwatch's fall was exactly as I predicted, but I loved seeing it, and hope Tormund is OK. I'm sure if Tormund is OK, then Beric is fine too, and he's already died six times, so whatever.
I am way too sleepy to muse effectively about this yet but I'll babble more about it tomorrow and give y'all some debates in replies.
Thanks as always to Mr. Egner for a creative, entertaining recap, and just as inevitably as the Mountain getting taken down by the Hound, I'll be commenting more in the morning. Thanks to all other commenters too, always excellent insights here.
I am way too sleepy to muse effectively about this yet but I'll babble more about it tomorrow and give y'all some debates in replies.
Thanks as always to Mr. Egner for a creative, entertaining recap, and just as inevitably as the Mountain getting taken down by the Hound, I'll be commenting more in the morning. Thanks to all other commenters too, always excellent insights here.
30
Besides the gross factor, getting Jon and Dany together is just so predictable! Two young hot lonely rulers finding solace in each other's groin. Come on! It would have been so much more interesting just to have them as smart allies fighting for humanity's survival. And if Dany gets predictably pregnant, the kid is going to be more nuts than the Mad King. That gene pool is not looking good. Tyrion's look at the end in the ship was sinister. The witch had prophesized that Dany will be betrayed 3 times, for blood and money and love. Perhaps this is the ultimate betrayal brewing. I would hate to see Tyrion heading down that dark path. Loved Sam's pause and smile and cheeky reply "oh...I don't know what that is" upon hearing Bran went north of the wall to become the 3 eyed Raven. Speaking for all of us.
45
The books have another Aegon - a 16 year old one - going for the throne, and with the Golden Company, no less.
I wonder how they're going to resolve this.
I wonder how they're going to resolve this.
12
Aegon is a Targaryen family name, so it's not surprising that two different members of the family would [unknowingly?] give the name to their sons.
C'mon, assing up wine whilst pregnant has only become a thing in the last generation.
13
"Whilst"... ;-) How did you end up in Yuma, guv?
2
One suggestion for fans of epics such as this during the Long Hiatus is to read "War and Peace" and substitute Napoleon for the Night King.
13
Dune would be great, too. Too bad the sequels weren't better.
2
If you love world history, you already know how Game of Thrones amplifies characters, warfare, battles, social/political hierarchies, and all the elaborate trappings of royal power that echo since medieval times. That's why so many of us are thrilled by this epic's sprawl through every episode.
I'm a bit puzzled that some fans are creeped out by the passion of Jon & Daenerys. Relations between family members were quite common throughout human history; it was considered advantageous and natural. So many other things are shocking and jaw-dropping.
Maybe viewers who are squeamish about "incest" are picturing their own aunts or uncles. Try not to do that...
I'm a bit puzzled that some fans are creeped out by the passion of Jon & Daenerys. Relations between family members were quite common throughout human history; it was considered advantageous and natural. So many other things are shocking and jaw-dropping.
Maybe viewers who are squeamish about "incest" are picturing their own aunts or uncles. Try not to do that...
90
GoT's themes of family feuds, legitimacy, incest, hatred and power are as ancient as the Greek tragedies. Those same themes (sans zombie armies) are also central to modern romances, American daytime dramas and Spanish telenovelas, popular genres that are often dismissed as unsophisticated but are nevertheless enjoyed by vast audiences.
9
Yes and recall Oedipus blinded himself when he learned who he had married.
2
Agreed. And BTW, incest is a man created taboo. Nature takes care of defective births if "incest" results in questionable results, and if procreation is avoided, then whats the harm w two consenting people? Another bTW, there's far more birth defects when intermarrying between religious clans or ethnicities--all the more reason "intermarriages" are better for our species.
1
I can't help thinking:
1. Jon Snow is Aegon Targayen - There must be a back story here. How could two of Rhaeger's sons (though different mothers) be named both Aegon? Rhaeger and Elia had a son named Aegon already.
2. If blue is the warmest color, then the undead Viserion's laser-blue flame must be hotter than the yellow of Dragon's and Rhaegal's?
3. Still silly the plan of capturing a wight to show Cersei.
4. Still silly the pretend of Arya/Sansa drama plot to ensnare Littlefinger, though the throat slashing was satisfying.
1. Jon Snow is Aegon Targayen - There must be a back story here. How could two of Rhaeger's sons (though different mothers) be named both Aegon? Rhaeger and Elia had a son named Aegon already.
2. If blue is the warmest color, then the undead Viserion's laser-blue flame must be hotter than the yellow of Dragon's and Rhaegal's?
3. Still silly the plan of capturing a wight to show Cersei.
4. Still silly the pretend of Arya/Sansa drama plot to ensnare Littlefinger, though the throat slashing was satisfying.
10
Here here is some back story as to why Rhaegar had two children with the name Aegon. I could have done with a little more explanation, but very interesting nonetheless.
https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/08/game-of-thrones-what-is-jon...
https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/08/game-of-thrones-what-is-jon...
1
Though Viserion could be killed with either dragon glass weapon or a Valyrian steel sword.
First....what a beautiful black horse Jaime got to ride North. GOT has done some great horse work (still not up to the Kurosawa level) but still beautiful to watch.
The one family entanglement that has me most anticipating....not Bran/Ice King, not Mtn/Hound.....Rhaegal and Drogon versus Viserion.
Baby Targaryen would make for a viable compromise.
Who's face will Arya steal to try and kill Cersei? Does SHE kill the Mountain?
Does Sam open the Tarly Citadel annex? What will overdue scrolls cost?
Will we see Sam roll on top of Gilly?
I haven't quite worked out my office bracket, but I'm imagining Tyrion cutting down the net.
The one family entanglement that has me most anticipating....not Bran/Ice King, not Mtn/Hound.....Rhaegal and Drogon versus Viserion.
Baby Targaryen would make for a viable compromise.
Who's face will Arya steal to try and kill Cersei? Does SHE kill the Mountain?
Does Sam open the Tarly Citadel annex? What will overdue scrolls cost?
Will we see Sam roll on top of Gilly?
I haven't quite worked out my office bracket, but I'm imagining Tyrion cutting down the net.
20
I didn't notice that Jaime was riding a black horse...until now Jaime has always ridden a white horse. Makes his abandonment of Cersei more clear. Thanks for pointing that out!!!
2
Aidan Gillen almost stole the show as Littlefinger but the last two seasons they've had nothing for his character to do, which is a shame. I knew he was marked for death as soon as he heard "chaos is a ladder" from Bran yet apparently decided that it would be perfectly safe for him to go on with his scheming despite the fact that Bran was apparently all-knowing. Completely out of character for a Machiavellian type to make such an egregious error but I guess they had to get him out of the way some how.
31
Love makes us all stupid.
Like a parent, he failed to see the adult his "child" (Sansa) had become.
Like a parent, he failed to see the adult his "child" (Sansa) had become.
Arya needs his face for future use.
1
Jon Snow knows nothing, Aegon Targeryan knows ...? Fill in the blank please?
13
A) Why was Tyrion so bothered by the coupling of Danerys and Jon/Aegon?
Does he know Jon's real parentage?
Is he in love with Danerys?
Does he believe sex prior to battle will cause poor performance?
B) Jamie will die, turn into a white walker, and subsequently murder Cersei.
C) Cersei's not pregnant. She's menopausal. Neither she nor Qyburn know the difference. While maesters may have figured out fetal alcohol syndrome, they don't know the first thing about women's reproductive systems.
D) The dragons won't be childless, however. Drogon's remaining (living) brother will turn out to be a sister (more incest), and they'll have eggs together (not scrambled, but maybe with toast).
E) Does blue dragon fire beat red dragon fire?
F) I still believe Cersei and the Night King will get together.
G) Where the heck is Gendry? He disappears for three years, returns for a second and disappears, again. Is he drinking with Bronn and Pod? Or is he back at sea? Maybe he's forging dragon armor.
H) In the race for Brienne's heart, I'm not sure if I'm Team Tormund or Team Hound. I know she's Team Jamie.
I) Who cares if the Golden Army has elephants? I mean, I like elephants, but what chance do they have next to dragons (dead or alive) and reanimated mammoths?
J) I still miss Wun Wun.
Does he know Jon's real parentage?
Is he in love with Danerys?
Does he believe sex prior to battle will cause poor performance?
B) Jamie will die, turn into a white walker, and subsequently murder Cersei.
C) Cersei's not pregnant. She's menopausal. Neither she nor Qyburn know the difference. While maesters may have figured out fetal alcohol syndrome, they don't know the first thing about women's reproductive systems.
D) The dragons won't be childless, however. Drogon's remaining (living) brother will turn out to be a sister (more incest), and they'll have eggs together (not scrambled, but maybe with toast).
E) Does blue dragon fire beat red dragon fire?
F) I still believe Cersei and the Night King will get together.
G) Where the heck is Gendry? He disappears for three years, returns for a second and disappears, again. Is he drinking with Bronn and Pod? Or is he back at sea? Maybe he's forging dragon armor.
H) In the race for Brienne's heart, I'm not sure if I'm Team Tormund or Team Hound. I know she's Team Jamie.
I) Who cares if the Golden Army has elephants? I mean, I like elephants, but what chance do they have next to dragons (dead or alive) and reanimated mammoths?
J) I still miss Wun Wun.
201
Tyrion is in love with Dany, and sad that she went for perfect Jon Snow.
Is Wun Wun a wight?
Is Wun Wun a wight?
3
Didn't Wun Wun die south of the Wall at Winterfell? Which means he wouldn't be come a wight.
Or do I have my giants mixed up?
Or do I have my giants mixed up?
Wun Wun was the Giant who fought with Jon Snow.
The big romance of next season? Forget Jon and Dany; it's Cersei and the Night King! Speaking of which, what does The Night King want? (That is, other than finding himself a killer queen?) As a character, The Night King is both an immutable force and entirely mute. Does he speak? Will he get dialogue? Can he be negotiated with? He's the big mystery here.
24
I agree he is the biggest mystery. They don't need food or land to grow food, so what is it that they want? Maybe revenge against men -- having been created by the Forest People in a fit of anger against the First Men?
8
I have been asking myself that very question. What DOES the Night King want???
Yes! What drives them?
1
Pretty sure valonqar from the prophecy is Littlefinger (to Catelyn Stark, naturally) and Arya will be the one to kill Cersei using his face.
69
I would agree (at least about the second, I don't know what valonqar from the prophecy is -- I haven't read the books and maybe it is from the books), except that Littlefinger had declared for the Starks and Winterfell so why would the vengeful Cersei let him in her presence and why would she let anything in her presence without the Mountain? Maybe Arya takes Cersei's face to kill the Mountain.
1
Forget Cersei. I want Arya to kill the Night King. She is the supreme killing machine on Team Breathing.
100% agree Arya uses Littlefinger's face for some productive depopulation of King's Landing. She still has her list!
1
I'm having a problem with the opening scene of the episode, when Jamie and Bronn are standing on the wall watching the Unsullied and the Dothraki below. Where was this battle? What happened? And how did the two of them get back to King's Landing unharmed and in time for the meeting at the Dragonpit?
21
They are standing on the wall of King's Landing so have no problem getting to meeting in the Dragonpit.
If you look back to episode 5 or 6, when they are planning to go to Kingslanding, you'll hear the plan re: the Unsullied & the Dothraki. They are there as insurance of Dany's safety, and will march on the city, if she is in danger.
1
Here's my take: Jaime and Bronn were on the outer parapets of Kings Landing. However, I can understand your confusion since one would think there would have been a reunion between Grey Worm and Missandei if they were in such close proximity.
Tyrion continued is plunge from genius to idiot, believing Cersei and accepting Greyjoy's flight at face value. No one follows Greyjoy or Cersei's army, even after Tyrion's numerous previous miscalculations.
Given Bron's claim to total knowledge, why is he not consulted about Cersei's maneuverings?
Given Bron's claim to total knowledge, why is he not consulted about Cersei's maneuverings?
9
So, I get that the writers are wrapping up the show... but I feel at a loss because they have under-utilized many characters this season. Missandei has been absent from many episodes and just looks concerned in the background. Davos barely has any lines and Grey Worm is just the face of the Unsullied? Also Dany's bloodriders this season have been underwhelming, and it looks like they have too much cheekbone highlighting make-up. Also Tyrion and Vaserys used to be masterminding the whole behind-the-scenes action and now they are seemingly ineffective councilors?
IMHO there could be subtler ways of telling the story through secondary characters and I think that would be truer to the GRRM-way of plot development.
I did like the throwback to Season 1 when Littlefinger says, "All Starks are slow learners". There have been many "bow-tying" moments this season from previous seasons, but perhaps some more "backstory" would make the episodes feel more complete and with elements of intrigue.
IMHO there could be subtler ways of telling the story through secondary characters and I think that would be truer to the GRRM-way of plot development.
I did like the throwback to Season 1 when Littlefinger says, "All Starks are slow learners". There have been many "bow-tying" moments this season from previous seasons, but perhaps some more "backstory" would make the episodes feel more complete and with elements of intrigue.
22
I'm no GOT expert, but why didn't Dany and the dragon, when they first swooped in, take 10 seconds to torch the chief ice horseman (who later spears the dragon), before saving Jon and Co. on the island in the ice-swamp, in the previous episode? (There's a sentence I'd never thought I'd write.)
203
The White Walkers don't seem to be killed by fire, as you see when the fire retreats before them. I guess we have to assume Dany knew this? Or just was too worried about the other two dragons to risk any more attacks. Many questions were left unanswered, for sure.
2
As my mom used to tell me every time I asked a similar obvious plot question; because if she did, it would be end of story.
17
The night king is impervious to fire
1
After watching last week's episode, I wondered how the finale could possibly top it. The answer: it couldn't. Still, Littlefinger's reckoning was long overdue, and a refreshing denouement to the rather tiresome Stark Sisters Rivalry story thread. I feared that someone we truly loved might die in the finale, so it was a treat to see Littlefinger reap his due instead. Here's to hoping that Jaime has at last embraced a conscience, and that Tormund survived the wall's collapse, no matter how implausibly. Perhaps he and Beric will infiltrate the army of the dead. I couldn't help but smile at all the howling I anticipated hearing across cyberspace in the wake of Jon and Dany's much dreaded consummation. I suspect they'll work things out like adults, but things could get very awkward, indeed. Perhaps Bran should have sent a raven.
17
First Hillary, now Daenerys?! Oh, you better don't! If Jon Snow usurps Dany, I will be piiiiiiiissed off!! She dusted her ass to get there and proved her ability to govern over and over. She had just better end up on that damn throne, and not pregnant either! Back off, Jon Snow!
65
misandrist.
2
Good one!
"My new girlfriend immolated your family!"
You mean... "My new girlfriend/aunt immolated your family!"
You mean... "My new girlfriend/aunt immolated your family!"
15
No, more like,
"My new girlfriend immolated your family!"
"No, your aunt did!"
"My new girlfriend immolated your family!"
"No, your aunt did!"
23
I was a little disappointed that Cercei didn't just go ahead with the plan to fight alongside her enemies. Strategically, it would have "kept her enemies closer" and provided much opportunity for infiltration and intricate plotting. Instead we'er just getting another giant army to clash with other giant armies, which I've personally had my fill of in this season. I understand that things need to escalate, but that doesn't necessarily call for bigger and bigger cgi scenes.
13
So Jon is Aegon Targaryen. He'll always be Jon Snow to me. Kind of sorry he consummated his relationship with Dany. It's just icky even if it is a Targaryen family tradition. And there was a whole lot of foreshadowing about Dany's ability to have a child. Could a pregnancy for Dany be the result? Tyrion didn't look too happy lurking out there in the hallway. Jealousy maybe? I'm wondering now if his loyalty might shift back to Cersei given that he thinks she is carrying another Lannister child.
It wasn't too surprising that Sansa and Arya teamed up to take revenge on Littlefinger. It did seem, though, as if Bran was acting more like a Stark than the Three-Eyed Raven during Littlefinger's trial. I also didn't understand why Sam had to tell Bran that Lyanna and Rhaegar had gotten married. This may be nitpicking, but wouldn't Bran have been able to see this on his own?
I guess the Night King is the third dragon rider. Neat trick to use the zombie dragon to burn a hole in the wall. I'm not sure how it makes sense that this dragon can breathe fire, but I've been letting a lot of things go this season. I'm going to predict that the final battle will be some sort of aerial dragon fight between Jon/Dany and the Night King. We'll know in 18 months.
It wasn't too surprising that Sansa and Arya teamed up to take revenge on Littlefinger. It did seem, though, as if Bran was acting more like a Stark than the Three-Eyed Raven during Littlefinger's trial. I also didn't understand why Sam had to tell Bran that Lyanna and Rhaegar had gotten married. This may be nitpicking, but wouldn't Bran have been able to see this on his own?
I guess the Night King is the third dragon rider. Neat trick to use the zombie dragon to burn a hole in the wall. I'm not sure how it makes sense that this dragon can breathe fire, but I've been letting a lot of things go this season. I'm going to predict that the final battle will be some sort of aerial dragon fight between Jon/Dany and the Night King. We'll know in 18 months.
28
Hey.....trying to sleep with Dany.......Jon washed his face for the first time in five seasons!!
30
Can Bran see anything he wants to in the past or does he need sufficient clues to go on? We don't know what the magical characters and items can or can't do because GRRM has not laid out the rules of magic in his universe. Why can an ice-wight dragon breathe blue flame? Who knows? I've come to believe even George doesn't.
5
Tyrion dealt well enough with his jealousy when Dany was sleeping with the head of the Second Sons. I also think he would be very leery of losing his heart again. I think he is worried about complications stemming from this -- also remember Ser Jorah also loves Dany. Having the two sleep with each other when they have a war to fight could cause dissension in the ranks.
While Bran can see everything he needs to somehow travel there in his trances. Once Sam spilled the beans about the annulment and legit wedding, Bran decided to confirm matters, and revisited the birth of Jon Snow as well to pick up more details. It would make sense that Bran checked up on facts to prepare for the trial.
As for Jon and Danys' possible love child, unlike generations of sister brother pairings, Jon has had outside blood injected, Stark blood, so he is not the product of incest, and that might ease the possible bad results of offspring from a Dany Jon paring, although I am in the camp that would have preferred they not couple.
As for the possibility of a pregnancy, somehow I doubt Dany was taking precautions all the time she was sleeping with her Second Son captain and no pregnancy ensued from their liaison.
While Bran can see everything he needs to somehow travel there in his trances. Once Sam spilled the beans about the annulment and legit wedding, Bran decided to confirm matters, and revisited the birth of Jon Snow as well to pick up more details. It would make sense that Bran checked up on facts to prepare for the trial.
As for Jon and Danys' possible love child, unlike generations of sister brother pairings, Jon has had outside blood injected, Stark blood, so he is not the product of incest, and that might ease the possible bad results of offspring from a Dany Jon paring, although I am in the camp that would have preferred they not couple.
As for the possibility of a pregnancy, somehow I doubt Dany was taking precautions all the time she was sleeping with her Second Son captain and no pregnancy ensued from their liaison.
6
At the Dragonpit - when Cersei returned with Tyrion, she seemed like a real Queen. That was genuinely surprising and uplifting. But no, not to be. The only silver lining in that Cersei mania was when Jamie hit the road on crazy lady.
Meanwhile, back at the winter ranch ... Awesome for Arya and Sansa to unite and ally themselves against Littlefinger. The sisters are doing it for themselves and closing that chapter of treachery.
Wonder if any Wildlings at Eastwatch survived? What will happen to the Dragon Queen and the King of the North? It's a little icky to see such an explicit confirmation of that plot complication.
Meanwhile, back at the winter ranch ... Awesome for Arya and Sansa to unite and ally themselves against Littlefinger. The sisters are doing it for themselves and closing that chapter of treachery.
Wonder if any Wildlings at Eastwatch survived? What will happen to the Dragon Queen and the King of the North? It's a little icky to see such an explicit confirmation of that plot complication.
12
So Daenreys still has two dragons. Could not one be used for aerial surveillance? To see where Euron's fleet is actually going? Within about 10 years after the airplane was invented, it was being used for that very purpose. Duh!?!
12
Also to flame out Euron's fleet.
3
Updated TOUT LINE ‘GOT’ ODDS: Who Kills Cersi in GOT #8?
Jamie Lannister – Novelist pick (“The things I do for love…stab, stab”) 75%
Dany Targaryen – Tabloid pick (Queen v. Queen) 15%
Night King – Pulp Magazine pick (apocalyptic evil wipes out all) 4%
Ayra Stark – Action Movie pick (rampaging heroine finishes list) 3%
John Snow-Stark–Targaryen – Soap Opera pick (gets double family revenge) 1%
Sansa Stark – Horror Movie pick (pounded heroine finally stomps villain) 1%
Mob in Kings Landing – Old Hollywood pick (think Day of the Locust) 1%
Tyrion Lannister – New Hollywood pick (less expected family twist) 0%
Jamie Lannister – Novelist pick (“The things I do for love…stab, stab”) 75%
Dany Targaryen – Tabloid pick (Queen v. Queen) 15%
Night King – Pulp Magazine pick (apocalyptic evil wipes out all) 4%
Ayra Stark – Action Movie pick (rampaging heroine finishes list) 3%
John Snow-Stark–Targaryen – Soap Opera pick (gets double family revenge) 1%
Sansa Stark – Horror Movie pick (pounded heroine finally stomps villain) 1%
Mob in Kings Landing – Old Hollywood pick (think Day of the Locust) 1%
Tyrion Lannister – New Hollywood pick (less expected family twist) 0%
14
Jamie Lannister of course. Until he pulls of his mask to reveal Arya.
18
Ten Iron bank on Arya.....
6
Seriously, dude! Stop posting this same thing over and over every week. You need some new material. You are starting to look a little desperate.
2
Tyron has been very concerned about succession. Cersei played that pregnancy reveal scene to the absolute hilt with him. Does she know that Dany is supposed to be infertile? No reason to leave Tyron alive unless he can be useful. And then he looks deeply troubled while staring at the closed stateroom door on the ship. Troubled because he's double-crossed Dany in favor of a new Lannister heir? Or troubled because he's hoping for a Dany-heir?
4
Regret that it's not him in the stateroom?
I’ve seen no indication yet that he lusts for Danaerys. I think he was wondering what would happen to the Northern clans when they find out that not only did Jon bend the knee but he sheathed the sword as well, as it were.
So did Bran, uh... see all of that... hot boat action?
I have loved Aiden Gillen's performance as Littlefinger but I'm glad that character is gone. Enough was enough.
I have loved Aiden Gillen's performance as Littlefinger but I'm glad that character is gone. Enough was enough.
17
wow......the mayor of Ballmore bought the farm
3
And so, the fool's errand north of the wall sets up next season's climactic aerial combat between Aegon Targaryen (.e., Jon Snow), atop Rhaegal, and the Night King riding Viserion. My guess is that it ends in a tangled heap of mutual destruction, with a horrified (but pregnant) Daenerys on Drogon looking on. Bittersweet, no? But I digress.
The finale provided fans with many small pleasures, a welcome respite from all the clunky plotting. Sansa and Arya shared a bit of sisterly affection and mutual respect: nothing brings sisters together like slitting the throat of your House's most treacherous enemy! The beaming Hound and Brienne seemed positively proud that Arya had grown up to be quite the little assassin. Bronn and Pod went off to share a pint or four (too bad we couldn't follow along), Sam actually heard Gilly, and Cersei was allowed to make a compelling case, first to Tyrion and then to Jaime, for her world view. Of course, she yet again overestimates her own cleverness and will undoubtedly cause much misery before she finally meets her end, but there was pathos in seeing her ambition leave her more isolated than ever. I will not be surprised if Missandei corrects our understanding of High Valyrian and explains that "valonqar" means not only "little brother" but "little son," and the thing growing inside Cersei (assuredly, not Jamie's son) ends up strangling her. Finally, thank you NY Times for this forum, and thank you Jeremy for your engaging recaps
The finale provided fans with many small pleasures, a welcome respite from all the clunky plotting. Sansa and Arya shared a bit of sisterly affection and mutual respect: nothing brings sisters together like slitting the throat of your House's most treacherous enemy! The beaming Hound and Brienne seemed positively proud that Arya had grown up to be quite the little assassin. Bronn and Pod went off to share a pint or four (too bad we couldn't follow along), Sam actually heard Gilly, and Cersei was allowed to make a compelling case, first to Tyrion and then to Jaime, for her world view. Of course, she yet again overestimates her own cleverness and will undoubtedly cause much misery before she finally meets her end, but there was pathos in seeing her ambition leave her more isolated than ever. I will not be surprised if Missandei corrects our understanding of High Valyrian and explains that "valonqar" means not only "little brother" but "little son," and the thing growing inside Cersei (assuredly, not Jamie's son) ends up strangling her. Finally, thank you NY Times for this forum, and thank you Jeremy for your engaging recaps
107
Yes, I believe the bun in the oven is the maester's doing. Alien X anyone?!
1
Maybe Jaime is the father, and "valonqar" means brother or cousin (which might be less of a stretch than brother or son).
I figured Bronn got Podrick to go drink because he figured everyone there would start killing everyone else there, and he wanted to get himself and Pod out of the way.
3
If you watch the On Demand version you'll see the Dan and David show after the credits. They flat out said that Cersei played Tyrion, strongly implicating that she is not preggers after all.
I replayed the brief bit from two weeks ago where Jaime walks into the royal chambers where Cersei is hush-hush talking to Qyburn in the next room and then waltzes out to tell Jaime he's gonna be a baby daddy. Even at max volume you can't make out what they're saying and that snippet isn't close captioned. I'm pretty sure that Qyburn was telling her how to fake a pregnancy.
And since they've phoned it in a dozen times I guess Dany will find herself expecting. Still trying to figure out how Jon can be a baby daddy if he's dead.
I replayed the brief bit from two weeks ago where Jaime walks into the royal chambers where Cersei is hush-hush talking to Qyburn in the next room and then waltzes out to tell Jaime he's gonna be a baby daddy. Even at max volume you can't make out what they're saying and that snippet isn't close captioned. I'm pretty sure that Qyburn was telling her how to fake a pregnancy.
And since they've phoned it in a dozen times I guess Dany will find herself expecting. Still trying to figure out how Jon can be a baby daddy if he's dead.
7
He’s not dead. He’s been brought back from the dead, not a zombie. Same for Beric.
Some thoughts on tonight's episode:
Yes, many parts of this episode were predictable, but that didn't make them any less enjoyable to me:
1) The Hound and the Mountain - can't wait for the inevitable Cleganebowl!!
2) Cersei speaking with Tyrion - I think Cersei really really wanted to kill Tyrion but she let him live because she needed to trick him into believing her when she later lies about joining forces with Dany & Jon. But I still loved that he had the chance to tell her how much the deaths of Myrcella and Tommen pained him. I still think she's completely made up this pregnancy. She always has a dozen tricks up her sleeve and she's already shown she lies to everyone, including Jaime.
3) Jaime breaking away from Cersei...this is definitely the beginning of the end for them. She's lost him and her expression when he left says she knew it.
4) Theon apologizing to Jon and finally beating an Ironborn idiot, and going to save his sister - FINALLY.
5) Petyr Baelish's death while predictable was delicious. If Sansa had fallen for Petyr again I would have lost all respect for her. Arya might have unnerved her, but sister squabbling is not the game of thrones.
6) Dany and Jon (or should I say Aegon?) I LOVED IT. I don't care if I'm the only reader who was shipping Jonerys. I loved it loved it loved it. Moving on...
7) Viserion the ice dragon - AMAZING. Terrifying, but amazing.
The worst part of this episode--waiting a whole year for Winter to return. See you all next year!
Yes, many parts of this episode were predictable, but that didn't make them any less enjoyable to me:
1) The Hound and the Mountain - can't wait for the inevitable Cleganebowl!!
2) Cersei speaking with Tyrion - I think Cersei really really wanted to kill Tyrion but she let him live because she needed to trick him into believing her when she later lies about joining forces with Dany & Jon. But I still loved that he had the chance to tell her how much the deaths of Myrcella and Tommen pained him. I still think she's completely made up this pregnancy. She always has a dozen tricks up her sleeve and she's already shown she lies to everyone, including Jaime.
3) Jaime breaking away from Cersei...this is definitely the beginning of the end for them. She's lost him and her expression when he left says she knew it.
4) Theon apologizing to Jon and finally beating an Ironborn idiot, and going to save his sister - FINALLY.
5) Petyr Baelish's death while predictable was delicious. If Sansa had fallen for Petyr again I would have lost all respect for her. Arya might have unnerved her, but sister squabbling is not the game of thrones.
6) Dany and Jon (or should I say Aegon?) I LOVED IT. I don't care if I'm the only reader who was shipping Jonerys. I loved it loved it loved it. Moving on...
7) Viserion the ice dragon - AMAZING. Terrifying, but amazing.
The worst part of this episode--waiting a whole year for Winter to return. See you all next year!
268
Thank you for pointing out all the "fun" aspects of the show. I love all these complex, convoluted characters, despite the flaws. I could easily spend the next three years slogging through Westeros, but a story needs to come to its end...
3
I loved all of these developments too, especially the way Sansa, Bran and Arya worked together to turn the tables on Littlefinger. That was so satisfying. I loved the coda where the sisters honor their father's memory, and Sansa pays Arya a rare compliment. There were some contrivances this season that were hard to believe, or too rushed. But when I am watching the show I am riveted because I'm still so invested in these characters and I know their histories.
3
As someone who has watched eagerly since the beginning, I was very optimistic for this season. However, now that it's come to an end, I will confess that I am a bit disappointed compared to last season.
11
Yep. Still the best thing on TV but it was rushed and they failed to properly flush out many aspects that were developed for 6 years...(e.g. uncle Benjin). If ever 10 proper episodes were required it was here. Heck they probably needed 16.
10
This show has had a markedly different pace since it went "off the books." It seems to be rushing to a conclusion, which is satisfying because of what this show built in the previous six seasons, but also comes off as a bit ham fisted. Too many unbelievable plot developments.
75
Because the previous seasons worked off of a long (VERY long) complex series of novels, some volumes of which are 1600 pages long (!!!).
The current season and next season need to be created off a rough outline from GRRM, who cannot and I think will not ever finish this series. He's waited far too long and I think the animating spirit of the books has left him. Plus, he has no need for the money now. And he's almost 70.
The current season and next season need to be created off a rough outline from GRRM, who cannot and I think will not ever finish this series. He's waited far too long and I think the animating spirit of the books has left him. Plus, he has no need for the money now. And he's almost 70.
1
Satisfying? or unsatisfying?
The rushing is ruining the show.
The rushing is ruining the show.
1
This is a show which features dragons, magic/sorcery, returns from death, ice zombies, and esoteric poisons. Yet, you think recent developments are 'unrealistic'?
Good to hear "Light of the Seven" played when Jaime breaks with Cersei.
23
Those two kids, Danny and Jon, are not just leaders, but breeders. Jon will die in Winter, as telegraphed, and so may Danny. But their kid(s) will inherit the world when Spring comes.
Also, the medical science has made great strides in Westeros. Just two examples, They can reanimate the dead, and they know that drinking alcohol is bad for pregnancies.
Chaos is a ladder. Just make sure no one is ahead of you when you climb it....
Also, the medical science has made great strides in Westeros. Just two examples, They can reanimate the dead, and they know that drinking alcohol is bad for pregnancies.
Chaos is a ladder. Just make sure no one is ahead of you when you climb it....
24
It's silly for the directors to have Cersei ignore her wine because of her pregnancy, if that was indeed one of the clues that tipped off Tyrian. A Medieval culture would hardly be aware of fetal alcohol syndrome. But maybe she just wasn't thirsty.
157
I was thinking that the wine was poisoned. But Tyrion does seem to be alive, so maybe not.
5
I thought the suspense around the wine was more to do with whether Cersei would trust Tyrion enough to drink what he gave her- the way he pointedly looked at her- it didn't occur to me he was suspicious already she was pregnant. When she kept putting her hand on her stomach to call attention to HER STOMACH- that action screamed "Hey Tyrion, I'm pregnant". Maybe she really is pregnant (I have my doubts still).
9
Would you drink anything offered to you by the man who may have been involved in poisoning your son's wine?
9
I still struggle to understand how Jon's claim to the throne would supersede that of Danaerys. She is the daughter of a ruling king, murdered by Jamie Lannister. Jon is the son of Aerys Targaryan's son, who might or might not have been crowned before he was killed on the battlefield.
So unless they prove that Rhaegar was a crowned king after the death of his father, his line would not take precedence over that of Danaerys. Unless, of course, you want to argue that Westeros has a bizarre Salic law precluding the inheritance of women.
If they do, count me pretty pissed off.
So unless they prove that Rhaegar was a crowned king after the death of his father, his line would not take precedence over that of Danaerys. Unless, of course, you want to argue that Westeros has a bizarre Salic law precluding the inheritance of women.
If they do, count me pretty pissed off.
4
He's the son of the oldest son. If Dany were oldest, she would have the superior claim. But the crown doesn't pass to the next-youngest sibling if there is an heir to the oldest, even if that heir is unknown. Doesn't need Salic law.
22
Simple - it's the same reason why William and Harry are ahead of Prince Andrew, Prince Edward and Princess Anne in the British succession, and will remain so even if Prince Charles dies before the Queen. The firstborn son, and any heirs, take precedence over later born issue of the ruling monarch. Here, Jon/Aegon is the only living issue of the firstborn son, Rhaegar.
16
I read somewhere that in Targaryan history and culture a male heir always supersedes a female heir, if there is a a male heir. Not agreeing, just reporting.
7
Did they really have to sleep together? Really?
7
Oh my God, yes. Yes they did.
20
Yeah... it's HBO.
5
They may not have slept much, Scully, maybe they didn't sleep at all, in fact! From Foxy Mulled Wine!
7
Cersei is lying about being pregnant; to Jamie to keep him "loyal" and leery of Tryion and to Tryion to keep her forces in place and stay alive just a little bit longer. Once Jaime figures it out he'll kill Cersei.
I took great pleasure watching Littlefinger FINALLY get what he deserved. The groveling was icing on the cake!
Sorry, I still can't get over the eww factor with Jon and Dany hooking up.
I took great pleasure watching Littlefinger FINALLY get what he deserved. The groveling was icing on the cake!
Sorry, I still can't get over the eww factor with Jon and Dany hooking up.
13
Jon is Azor Ahai. Can't take the throne. But his child, the one Dany is surely pregnant with, can. That will be the 'bittersweet' ending Martin has talked about.
And I would bet quite a bit that the trip to capture a wight and the show and tell for Cersi are not in the books to come. They are clumsy plot devices at best.
The show from here out, actually from the start of this season, is really ruining the books to come. We will know the final outcome while reading the (hopefully) different path Martin takes to get there. I really hope he does not take a lazy path and work too much of this television nonsense into the stories.
And I would bet quite a bit that the trip to capture a wight and the show and tell for Cersi are not in the books to come. They are clumsy plot devices at best.
The show from here out, actually from the start of this season, is really ruining the books to come. We will know the final outcome while reading the (hopefully) different path Martin takes to get there. I really hope he does not take a lazy path and work too much of this television nonsense into the stories.
67
History will not look kindly on this show. I won't get into all the ridiculous plot devices, rather will say that this is a glorified soap opera. A nighttime days of our lives with a high budget set in a different time and place...
It's not just this season. The last few seasons have just dragged on, with inane drama, unbelievable storylines and convenient plot devices. I know its fantasy, but if you throw all logic to the wind, what are you left with?!? It's no better than a fast and furious movie playing out over and over again, with slightly different plots. Same thing has happened to the star wars franchise, which was expected soon as disney got their grubby little hands on it. GRRM is trolling us all.
#SAD
It's not just this season. The last few seasons have just dragged on, with inane drama, unbelievable storylines and convenient plot devices. I know its fantasy, but if you throw all logic to the wind, what are you left with?!? It's no better than a fast and furious movie playing out over and over again, with slightly different plots. Same thing has happened to the star wars franchise, which was expected soon as disney got their grubby little hands on it. GRRM is trolling us all.
#SAD
7
GRRM left the team an outline, so this season may not be as far off track as you hope.
11
Sorry, but they've already driven truck loads of money to George RR Martin's house to be a part of this less than satisfying closing. He'll conform to the show or probably just die not finishing the series.
At this point, I don't really care since GoT has now gone from being epic to just another TV show.
At this point, I don't really care since GoT has now gone from being epic to just another TV show.
1
I find that without George Martin to guide the series into darker territory, Dan and Dan are making the storylines more logical and more fair. Littlefinger deserved to die for all of his manipulations and lies, and they gave him his poetic justly deserved death. Jon and Daenarys both deserved some personal "me" romantic time in their lives, and they got that. Cersei deserves to be all alone for all of her excessive ambition, stubbornness, and pride, and now she has no one--no children, no husband, no siblings, no parents, and no lovers. Dan and Dan don't like to reward the evil and the bad, but Martin was open to letting the powerful and the bad win.
48
In the last book, Martin had a completely different plot line for Littlefinger and Sansa. I hope Martin finishes the story in 2 books and doesn't follow the show at all.
I called some of this a couple weeks ago:
"Dan Kansas August 18, 2017
I'd lay odds that since we heard the gold taken from Highgarden made it to King's Landing and apparently to the Iron Bank, the Golden Swords are already in play, probably being ferried by Euron's "missing" fleet, and they will conveniently show up to attack the army Cersei will allow to come together with her purported support just as it is heading north to fight the White Walkers as this season's cliffhanger. Then, we'll see the Army of the Dead marching south into another blizzard before having to wait a whole year for one less episode and a whirlwind hot mess in season 7.
I'm going to be very disappointed if any of what I just posted actually happens but these writers have gotten so predictable about pulling lost bad guys and their massive forces out of thin air (or fishes a couple out of deep water) just when we're supposed to be suspecting it the least (though now I just suspect it all the time) nothing would surprise me at this point.
I'm actually glad there's only one more season at this quality level. I'd have subscribed for seven more at the old."
Still, I thoroughly enjoyed this finale. I loved all the sappy reunions. It's hard to believe Cersei didn't have a trap laid and kill everybody including the dragons with Qyburn's weapons. But most of all I loved Littlefinger's demise. What will Arya be able to do with his face in King's Landing. It boggles the mind.
Blue blazes can sure melt ice.
"Dan Kansas August 18, 2017
I'd lay odds that since we heard the gold taken from Highgarden made it to King's Landing and apparently to the Iron Bank, the Golden Swords are already in play, probably being ferried by Euron's "missing" fleet, and they will conveniently show up to attack the army Cersei will allow to come together with her purported support just as it is heading north to fight the White Walkers as this season's cliffhanger. Then, we'll see the Army of the Dead marching south into another blizzard before having to wait a whole year for one less episode and a whirlwind hot mess in season 7.
I'm going to be very disappointed if any of what I just posted actually happens but these writers have gotten so predictable about pulling lost bad guys and their massive forces out of thin air (or fishes a couple out of deep water) just when we're supposed to be suspecting it the least (though now I just suspect it all the time) nothing would surprise me at this point.
I'm actually glad there's only one more season at this quality level. I'd have subscribed for seven more at the old."
Still, I thoroughly enjoyed this finale. I loved all the sappy reunions. It's hard to believe Cersei didn't have a trap laid and kill everybody including the dragons with Qyburn's weapons. But most of all I loved Littlefinger's demise. What will Arya be able to do with his face in King's Landing. It boggles the mind.
Blue blazes can sure melt ice.
13
Then why would Cersei allow Jaime to leave town, presumably to spill the beans to Jon/Dany?
5
When the Lannister troops failed to show, as promised, they would've gotten an inkling.
5
Jethro - Cersei allowed Jaime to leave town because, when it came to it, she could not bear to kill or incarcerate him. It's her last human connection. Well-played moment by Lena Headey.
5
My concerns, not necessarily in this order, and not necessarily more than, let's say, incest:
How does this affect next season's opening diorama?
Even if Tormund survives, when it comes to the affections of Brienne, I just realized that I am very much team Hound.
How does 3 eyed Bran decide which horror Jon needs know first?
How does this affect next season's opening diorama?
Even if Tormund survives, when it comes to the affections of Brienne, I just realized that I am very much team Hound.
How does 3 eyed Bran decide which horror Jon needs know first?
11
The Zombie Viserion shoots "blue fire" out of its mouth. Yes. But why? And how? Shooting freezing hail or ice, perhaps, I could understand. Mr. Freeze. But this blue 'fire' melts ice and snow. How is that different from regular dragon fire, except for the color? I mean, fire kills the undead. It can shoot hot stuff from its mouth, so long as it is blue hot stuff? This idea has more holes in it than its new wings. Speaking of wings, since they don't have feathers, wouldn't these dragons flap their skin wings a lot like bats, instead of soaring like birds? Just sayin'.
80
Natural gas burns with a blue flame. YAWN.
Since obviously there are no dragons, there is no real requirement for any of this to make sense biologically, evolutionarily or logically.
Nothing that big could ever get off the ground, because that's not how flight works in birds (or bats).
Since obviously there are no dragons, there is no real requirement for any of this to make sense biologically, evolutionarily or logically.
Nothing that big could ever get off the ground, because that's not how flight works in birds (or bats).
7
Also, while I know it's "magic" fire, people don't realize just how much energy is required to melt ice. It's funny that the HBO folks announced the season premiere date earlier this year by staging an "unveiling" on Facebook wherein they encased the date in a block of ice then directed flames at the block of ice only to have the thing become a debacle as it took all day for the ice to melt sufficiently to reveal the encased information while millions watching grew impatient and derisive. H2O on earth at least is a tremendous heat sink, luckily for us. It moderates the climate by absorbing heat from the atmosphere and I was flabbergasted to see that wight dragon just blast the wall to pieces with that blue flame or whatever it was since flame kills wights and I can only assume that goes for wight dragons as well but apparently not.
Anyway, I still loved the episode. I can't believe we have to wait what will probably amount to more than a year for the final six episodes. I really did fear for Tyrion when he went to see Cersei, and I feared for Jamie when The Mountain put his hand on his sword. It was great to see Littlefinger killed with his own dagger, and all the reunions and meet ups were very satisfying. I loved The Hound and Brienne's exchange about Arya. I sure hope Theon redeems himself and rescues Yara. But what will Jamie divulge about Cersei's treachery?
Tune in again next year folks, same bat time, same bat channel. Till then, Valar Dohaeris and Valar Dohaeris!
Anyway, I still loved the episode. I can't believe we have to wait what will probably amount to more than a year for the final six episodes. I really did fear for Tyrion when he went to see Cersei, and I feared for Jamie when The Mountain put his hand on his sword. It was great to see Littlefinger killed with his own dagger, and all the reunions and meet ups were very satisfying. I loved The Hound and Brienne's exchange about Arya. I sure hope Theon redeems himself and rescues Yara. But what will Jamie divulge about Cersei's treachery?
Tune in again next year folks, same bat time, same bat channel. Till then, Valar Dohaeris and Valar Dohaeris!
5
I don't think the blue "fire" melted the ice. I think it is was meant to look like it blew it down with sheer force. You know: huff, puff, and blow it all down! :-)
5
I don't think anyone saw the events in Winterfell coming. I read pages and pages of comments on reddit and other social media sites -- I did not see any comment that guessed it right. It took me by surprise, and it was glorious. With Dany and Jon (Aegon?), I'm more concerned about how Dany might react to the news that she's not the heir to the throne (it's a sexist realm, sadly). Will they decide to rule Westeros together? Or is it gonna be another game of thrones? Well, we have wait for a year *sigh*.
11
Some of the people commenting in the NYT last week saw it coming.
5
Predicted in the NYT and other sites.
5
Well, if they go by bloodlines and declare Jon the heir, that's not actually sexist - he would outrank her in the same way Prince William of England outranks his aunt Anne. If any major character could be unimpressed by becoming heir to the throne, however, it's Jon. He's barely interested in being King of the North - Sansa's doing all the work. If it wasn't for the incest thing, the Jon and Dany pairing would be good: she's got the ambition and energy to rule and he could keep her connected with her best impulses.
4
We lose Little Finger and the Wall. Just what did Tyrion Lannister say to his sister? What did he promise?
11
I enjoyed seeing Little Finger meet his end. Sansa is now one of my favorite characters.
Jon is, indeed, a dolt. I also don't think Jon's biological parents had much to offer, considering that his father cast aside his first wife and two children, including a son already named Aegon, to marry Lyanna and Lyanna was a willing participant in adultery. I don't see the chemistry between Jon and Daenerys. But there is precedent for royal aunt-nephew and uncle-niece marriages in medieval Europe in the real world. I predict Daenerys will be pregnant and her son will be the prince who is promised.
Jon is, indeed, a dolt. I also don't think Jon's biological parents had much to offer, considering that his father cast aside his first wife and two children, including a son already named Aegon, to marry Lyanna and Lyanna was a willing participant in adultery. I don't see the chemistry between Jon and Daenerys. But there is precedent for royal aunt-nephew and uncle-niece marriages in medieval Europe in the real world. I predict Daenerys will be pregnant and her son will be the prince who is promised.
16
Are Bronn and Pod still enjoying that drink? One of the few moments of levity tonight.
36
I'm already tired of reading about the incest and there's another year and plus some to go till we see their reactions. It won't happen but I'd like to see Dany and Jon have that recoil that Steve Martin and John Candy's characters had in "Planes, Trains, and Automobiles" ("Those aren't pillows!").
Whatever. There are few surprises left in this show. The only one that comes to mind was Theon's standing up for himself. Who knew that a lack of balls would come in so handy?
Whatever. There are few surprises left in this show. The only one that comes to mind was Theon's standing up for himself. Who knew that a lack of balls would come in so handy?
4
The Tagaryens have historically be okay with mating of close relatives, which probably accounts for the streak of madness in the family. And for some reason my wife cannot see Dany's incipient megalomania!
Season 7 was a filler season to the big finale..season 8.
I still enjoyed it. It felt so good to see the remaining Starks together. Really together.
I still enjoyed it. It felt so good to see the remaining Starks together. Really together.
8
I read somewhere recently that the author said that it was always supposed to be about Dany and Jon when he visited the set years ago. Still this coming together of plot points feels rushed and I imagine it will remain that way next season. As a whole it's enjoyable but the world that they've created needs to be taken slowly to truly be enjoyed. I guess I don't know what the rush is it's not like HBO said wrap it up. Still I will take what they're offering because like so many others I am invested already.
16
Honestly -- I read the first book back in the 90s when it came out -- and I had figured out in the FIRST VOLUME that the story was going to about Jon Snow and Daenerys. I mean seriously folks: DUH. The series is called "A Song of Ice and Fire" and repeats a saying that "winter is coming". And you cannot figure out that the HERO is the guy named "Jon SNOW"?
And GRRM was so hot for Daenerys, that back in the 90s, he issued TWO novelas that are basically "all the Daeneryas parts only" of GOT. He didn't do that for any other characters, just her.
Anyone who can't figure that out, hasn't read many novels.
As to "why are they rushing through it"? They just don't have enough material, because all GRRM has for the two remaining UNWRITTEN novels is a rough outline that he has given to the show's producers. They are trying to fill in the blanks, but you can't recreate a novel the length of LOTR based on footnotes.
And GRRM was so hot for Daenerys, that back in the 90s, he issued TWO novelas that are basically "all the Daeneryas parts only" of GOT. He didn't do that for any other characters, just her.
Anyone who can't figure that out, hasn't read many novels.
As to "why are they rushing through it"? They just don't have enough material, because all GRRM has for the two remaining UNWRITTEN novels is a rough outline that he has given to the show's producers. They are trying to fill in the blanks, but you can't recreate a novel the length of LOTR based on footnotes.
4
The very best was to see Sansa and Arya catch Littlefinger in a trap.
261
So fun. Thanks for your weekly chime in. Now the great wait begins for the final GOT curtain. So many questions, here lingering!
8
To me, the entirety of season 7 has been soulless, strangely reasoned, poorly executed plot advancement. There have been occasional scenes of poetry, but mostly, I have really wished for better writing. It's been a (vicarious) shame.
158
I totally agree. Some of the dialogue in this episode was right out of a George Lucas film. If the entire series was this way I don't think it would have gathered the same following. Now I really like the characters and need to see the story thru but it's hard not to wonder what might have been if GRRM had finished the books in time. :(
89
"Vicarious"–perfect word for it. Now we just need Septa Mordane intoning "shame".
2
How would you know what vicarious shame is when you are vicarious?
1