This leftist Red Guard has attacked our institutions, destroyed innocent monuments of Christopher Columbus and Abraham Lincoln. In Chicago they tried to tear down Washington street signs until someone mentioned that Harold Washington was the first Black mayor of Chicago. These are anarchists devoid of any social and cultural moral.
39
By all means, let's put the Antifa crowd in charge of which history we are allowed to acknowledge.
Bet that will go over great with voters.
Bet that will go over great with voters.
38
THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS.
Activists who refuse to acknowledge the difference between symbols of a literal slave state and all their new targets do more harm than good—to Democrats and liberals, yes, but to history, to "social justice," to everyone. Democratic leadership needs to forcefully distance itself from them. They are the left's Tea Party.
Activists who refuse to acknowledge the difference between symbols of a literal slave state and all their new targets do more harm than good—to Democrats and liberals, yes, but to history, to "social justice," to everyone. Democratic leadership needs to forcefully distance itself from them. They are the left's Tea Party.
27
So, tear 'em all down. Then ask yourself - "What statues are we erecting today that will be torn down 100 years from now?"
13
what happens if plagiarism or disrespecting women become unpopular? goodbye MLK boulevards?
26
We are all complex and flawed individuals who rarely question the zeitgeist of our times.
Woody Allen turns my stomach but his personal actions don't make "Crimes and Misdemeanors" any less significant of a film. Charles Lindbergh, Edgar Degas, H.L. Mencken were all anti-semites. Should we destroy Lindbergh memorials or The Spirit of St. Louis, Mencken's writings, Degas paintings?
Leave the monuments as they are still works of art. Add plaques clarifying the history and possibly another monument honoring the true heroes.
Woody Allen turns my stomach but his personal actions don't make "Crimes and Misdemeanors" any less significant of a film. Charles Lindbergh, Edgar Degas, H.L. Mencken were all anti-semites. Should we destroy Lindbergh memorials or The Spirit of St. Louis, Mencken's writings, Degas paintings?
Leave the monuments as they are still works of art. Add plaques clarifying the history and possibly another monument honoring the true heroes.
23
This is becoming a distraction that is being encouraged from The Right. Liberals are always getting the cart before the horse. Voting is much more important than symbols and statues. If everyone would just vote, even if there are government forces making it hard to vote, we could solve all these other issues. But 49% didn't think it worth their while.
14
OK, take down every monument to all historical people because none of them were perfect as the Politically Correct Social Justice Warriors expect them to be. Good grief this has gotten out of hand.
34
Paul Begala, the Democratic strategist, said his party was “driving straight into a trap Trump has set," he is 100 present correct. What's next the taking down monuments of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson because they were slave owners, to paraphrase donald.
Philadelphia councilwomen, Helen Gym is tweeting that the statue of Frank Rizzo should be taken down.
?What next for her, the remove of all Roman Catholic Church because Pope Urban II started the Crusade?
And while mayor billy is entertaining the though of Christopher Columbus being taken down, lets not forget Leif Erikson there are statues of him all over this great country.
Lines have to be drawn the taking down of Confederate monuments is not complicated.
Philadelphia councilwomen, Helen Gym is tweeting that the statue of Frank Rizzo should be taken down.
?What next for her, the remove of all Roman Catholic Church because Pope Urban II started the Crusade?
And while mayor billy is entertaining the though of Christopher Columbus being taken down, lets not forget Leif Erikson there are statues of him all over this great country.
Lines have to be drawn the taking down of Confederate monuments is not complicated.
9
...the anger from the left over monuments and public images deemed racist, insensitive or inappropriate has quickly spread to statues of Christopher Columbus and the former Philadelphia tough cop mayor Frank Rizzo, Boston’s landmark Faneuil Hall, a popular Chicago thoroughfare and even Maryland’s state song. An Asian-American sportscaster named Robert Lee was pulled from broadcasting a University of Virginia football game so as not to offend viewers."
And this, my friends is why we should all be appalled at any violence, vandalism, or demand to tear down monuments. The Progressive activists are fascists, telling us what we can say, telling us what we can see.
This movement is not only without merit, but it is designed to divide and cause a social or communist state. One where the states have no rights, the Fed dictates all. NO! WE MUST SAY NO TO ANYONE OR ANY GROUP THAT TRIMS FREE SPEECH OR OUR PUBLIC HISTORY.
And this, my friends is why we should all be appalled at any violence, vandalism, or demand to tear down monuments. The Progressive activists are fascists, telling us what we can say, telling us what we can see.
This movement is not only without merit, but it is designed to divide and cause a social or communist state. One where the states have no rights, the Fed dictates all. NO! WE MUST SAY NO TO ANYONE OR ANY GROUP THAT TRIMS FREE SPEECH OR OUR PUBLIC HISTORY.
25
This is frightening. Where will it end? Who gets to decide?
"To all you monument iconoclasts - think about what you’re doing, and why you’re doing it. Yes, it’s so much easier to tell yourself that as soon as a statue comes down, your life will improve, and America will be greater for it. Your life won’t improve one bit, and because you will have made some of the most hard-up-against-it people in the country hate you, and our common problems that much more difficult to solve, you will have made America worse." - Rod Dreher
"To all you monument iconoclasts - think about what you’re doing, and why you’re doing it. Yes, it’s so much easier to tell yourself that as soon as a statue comes down, your life will improve, and America will be greater for it. Your life won’t improve one bit, and because you will have made some of the most hard-up-against-it people in the country hate you, and our common problems that much more difficult to solve, you will have made America worse." - Rod Dreher
18
Enough of the "only white men" are bad baloney. There's plenty of horrible behavior for all. Almost all native people were, at one time or another, at war with each other. Study the history of African tribes, where inter-tribal warfare has been conducted on a massive scale for centuries. Some of the worst just as recently as the 1990s.
Or the Native Americans, who carried out carnage against each other. What about the "peaceful" Hawaiians, perhaps? Wrong again. Any study of Hawaiian history will reveal a warrior-based society that would horrify any modern day citizen. I doubt any Hawaiian today would want to go back to the pre-white day society, where the royals ruled with brutal force. The last king, in fact, has a statue in Washington, D.C. Need that come down? No reason for it to.
So, study your history, people. It's not a pretty picture among almost any society or culture, but it's the truth and try as you may, you cannot erase it.
Or the Native Americans, who carried out carnage against each other. What about the "peaceful" Hawaiians, perhaps? Wrong again. Any study of Hawaiian history will reveal a warrior-based society that would horrify any modern day citizen. I doubt any Hawaiian today would want to go back to the pre-white day society, where the royals ruled with brutal force. The last king, in fact, has a statue in Washington, D.C. Need that come down? No reason for it to.
So, study your history, people. It's not a pretty picture among almost any society or culture, but it's the truth and try as you may, you cannot erase it.
35
I was born (1948) and raised in New York City. Columbus Circle is one of the city's most beautiful and notable landmarks not unlike Piccadilly Circus in London. The statue of Christopher Columbus is its centerpiece, an architectural treasure for generations of New Yorkers. Removing it would be another blow to our heritage.
The carpetbagger, left-wing looney Mayor DeBlasio, according to this article, may give an executive to remove it. Hasn't he done enough already to ruin New York? Our city - I still consider it my city - is becoming a disgraceful mess. Homeless people sleeping and relieving themselves on the streets. He must be stopped.
There is another beautiful monument on Columbus Circle. It's to the sailors who perished on the USS Maine when it was sunk in Havana harbor in 1898. The incident led to the War of 1898 against Spain. Our victory led to our annexation of Cuba, The Philippines, Hawaii and other Spanish possessions. Should DeBlasio also order the removal the monument because it represents the beginning of American Imperialism?!
Stop this lunacy and get rid of DeBlasio instead.
The carpetbagger, left-wing looney Mayor DeBlasio, according to this article, may give an executive to remove it. Hasn't he done enough already to ruin New York? Our city - I still consider it my city - is becoming a disgraceful mess. Homeless people sleeping and relieving themselves on the streets. He must be stopped.
There is another beautiful monument on Columbus Circle. It's to the sailors who perished on the USS Maine when it was sunk in Havana harbor in 1898. The incident led to the War of 1898 against Spain. Our victory led to our annexation of Cuba, The Philippines, Hawaii and other Spanish possessions. Should DeBlasio also order the removal the monument because it represents the beginning of American Imperialism?!
Stop this lunacy and get rid of DeBlasio instead.
37
All monuments are offensive! Eulogizing humans through statues, monuments, street names, and building names reeks of tribalism and has no purpose in global citizenship. We can only hope that the movement started here in the US to rid our culture of past demagogues will spread to Europe where the problem is much, much greater and that much more offensive.
3
The obvious solution to the Confederate statue problem is to set them up in the Trump properties. Statues of Jeb Stuart, Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson should be hauled over to the Trump hotels, golf courses, etc. Imagine a conference of these three generals in a Trump hotel lobby.
5
Why this sudden "Self-Righteousness" among the younger generation.
Is it because they have so little political and economic power ?
From whence did they suddenly acquire such wisdom and moral force.
Was it when they moved into Harlem/Brooklyn and subsequently
the rents went up and longterm minority residents had to move out ?
Likewise in San Francisco and Oakland...
Perhaps it was in the increasing segregation of schools in Manhattan
where parents refuse to send their children to "sub-standard" public schools -
which incidentally have large number of minority children in attendance.
Or was it when the "Anti-Fa" attacks those who disagree with them,
and the hunting down of those who oppose the "Wise" on the internet.
[Does not anyone see how this is worse than the "Persecution of the Reds"
in the late 1940's and 1950's. ]
If you want a Federal Government that ignores "States Rights" and
where Free Speech is denied because it is not approved by the "Wise"
keep removing any statue, any name that offends the "Wisest of the Wise"
Otherwise, allow local communities to decide what the wish to do
with statues/images that truly offend.
or B
Is it because they have so little political and economic power ?
From whence did they suddenly acquire such wisdom and moral force.
Was it when they moved into Harlem/Brooklyn and subsequently
the rents went up and longterm minority residents had to move out ?
Likewise in San Francisco and Oakland...
Perhaps it was in the increasing segregation of schools in Manhattan
where parents refuse to send their children to "sub-standard" public schools -
which incidentally have large number of minority children in attendance.
Or was it when the "Anti-Fa" attacks those who disagree with them,
and the hunting down of those who oppose the "Wise" on the internet.
[Does not anyone see how this is worse than the "Persecution of the Reds"
in the late 1940's and 1950's. ]
If you want a Federal Government that ignores "States Rights" and
where Free Speech is denied because it is not approved by the "Wise"
keep removing any statue, any name that offends the "Wisest of the Wise"
Otherwise, allow local communities to decide what the wish to do
with statues/images that truly offend.
or B
15
It's a bad sign when politics revolves around statues. But if we must discuss it then there is a simple rule.
Losing generals don't get statues in public spaces. Anonymous soldiers do but not their leaders.
If the purpose of the statue is to intimidate or display government opposition then they should be removed.
Columbus statues don't fit the above criteria for removal. It would be more appropriate to adjust primary school curriculum to treat Columbus as a historical figure not as America's Moses.
Losing generals don't get statues in public spaces. Anonymous soldiers do but not their leaders.
If the purpose of the statue is to intimidate or display government opposition then they should be removed.
Columbus statues don't fit the above criteria for removal. It would be more appropriate to adjust primary school curriculum to treat Columbus as a historical figure not as America's Moses.
6
I don't know anyone who cares about keeping confederate monuments. Everyone I have chatted with agrees with me to; "...just, tear them down." And not many people around the country are expressing arguments to keep them. So, it's going to happen.
But, one problem I see with this is that in city after city after they are all removed, this may have the effect of halting future progress in overcoming actual racial inequities. The collective mental exhaustion effect of this whole exercise is possibly creating a likelihood that the next demands, which probably will have real significance won't be able to get the support necessary to be accomplished.
But, one problem I see with this is that in city after city after they are all removed, this may have the effect of halting future progress in overcoming actual racial inequities. The collective mental exhaustion effect of this whole exercise is possibly creating a likelihood that the next demands, which probably will have real significance won't be able to get the support necessary to be accomplished.
4
All of you commending the mass take-down of monuments to those with whom you feel represent "bad behavior", beware. The dreaded Pandora's box...it will only be a matter of time before something you think or do will be decidedly unacceptable. Maybe years. But this is an incredibly dangerous and slippery slope. We will all regret this.
21
I once tried installing a new operating system on a 10 year old computer. The new system needed more memory and processing power, but it did install. Once I rebooted, the system could barely function, ran slowly, and crashed constantly.
The hardware of the human brain hasn't changed much since we were hunter gatherers, but the world has gotten infinitely more complex.
The world our brains are struggling to process is now far too complex for the hardware, and that will ultimately lead the system to crash.
The hardware of the human brain hasn't changed much since we were hunter gatherers, but the world has gotten infinitely more complex.
The world our brains are struggling to process is now far too complex for the hardware, and that will ultimately lead the system to crash.
2
Why was there a protest in Charlottesville? It was to protest the removal of a statue. So focusing on the KKK is the media's distraction from the original topic. Most of the left seems to have serious reading comprehension problems. If you think what Trump said about the KKK was bad then you simply need to go back to school or quit being a mindless partisan.
11
Pres. Dwight Eisenhower on why he kept a portrait of Lee in the Oval Office:
"We need to understand that at the time of the War between the States the issue of secession had remained unresolved for more than 70 years. Men of probity, character, public standing and unquestioned loyalty, both North and South, had disagreed over this issue as a matter of principle from the day our Constitution was adopted.
"General Robert E. Lee was, in my estimation, one of the supremely gifted men produced by our Nation. He believed unswervingly in the Constitutional validity of his cause which until 1865 was still an arguable question in America; he was a poised and inspiring leader, true to the high trust reposed in him by millions of his fellow citizens; he was thoughtful yet demanding of his officers and men, forbearing with captured enemies but ingenious, unrelenting and personally courageous in battle, and never disheartened by a reverse or obstacle. Through all his many trials, he remained selfless almost to a fault and unfailing in his faith in God. Taken altogether, he was noble as a leader and as a man, and unsullied as I read the pages of our history."
"We need to understand that at the time of the War between the States the issue of secession had remained unresolved for more than 70 years. Men of probity, character, public standing and unquestioned loyalty, both North and South, had disagreed over this issue as a matter of principle from the day our Constitution was adopted.
"General Robert E. Lee was, in my estimation, one of the supremely gifted men produced by our Nation. He believed unswervingly in the Constitutional validity of his cause which until 1865 was still an arguable question in America; he was a poised and inspiring leader, true to the high trust reposed in him by millions of his fellow citizens; he was thoughtful yet demanding of his officers and men, forbearing with captured enemies but ingenious, unrelenting and personally courageous in battle, and never disheartened by a reverse or obstacle. Through all his many trials, he remained selfless almost to a fault and unfailing in his faith in God. Taken altogether, he was noble as a leader and as a man, and unsullied as I read the pages of our history."
19
Fake media generated "outcry" used as an excuse by malcontents to remove monuments. There is a reason liberal cities are removing statues in the middle of the night--their constituents overwhelmingly favor KEEPING them. According to the Marist Poll for PBS only 27% favor removing statues. 2 out of 3 whites and Hispanics want them to remain as well as a whopping 44% of blacks.
15
Statues of Confederate Generals erected during the 50's and 60's to reinforce Jim Crow and remind Blacks of racial intolerance and hatred, should, be removed from public spaces. It is important that individual communities make those decisions; unless the motivation is local, it will only raise resentment. Fortunately, although some cities and even states still hold reprehensible attitudes regarding civil rights and equality, eventually those who hold such ugly ideas in their hearts will change or eventually die out, taking their bigotry with them.
Statues are just a symptom. The heart of the matter is the twisted belief system at the base of the fight to maintain monuments to ugliness.
Instead of waging fights over each statue or street or school or park named after a traitor to the USA (the confederates), a slaveholder, a horrible person, etc. - which dilutes the issue and divides us even more, it seems to me we must fight the underlying issues - racism, bigotry, hatred.
The GOP loves racism. Convincing Whites that "inferior" people are getting what their White skin entitles them to has created an angry, resentful, devoted base. Hate radio, Fox "News," turning anger into rage. A Black President, economic stress, fear of demographic changes, all used to stoke White resentment by the GOP.
We need to be smart. Fight the lies, the normalization of racism and fascism. We are ALL in it together and need to get THAT message out. Fight the disease, not the symptoms!!
Statues are just a symptom. The heart of the matter is the twisted belief system at the base of the fight to maintain monuments to ugliness.
Instead of waging fights over each statue or street or school or park named after a traitor to the USA (the confederates), a slaveholder, a horrible person, etc. - which dilutes the issue and divides us even more, it seems to me we must fight the underlying issues - racism, bigotry, hatred.
The GOP loves racism. Convincing Whites that "inferior" people are getting what their White skin entitles them to has created an angry, resentful, devoted base. Hate radio, Fox "News," turning anger into rage. A Black President, economic stress, fear of demographic changes, all used to stoke White resentment by the GOP.
We need to be smart. Fight the lies, the normalization of racism and fascism. We are ALL in it together and need to get THAT message out. Fight the disease, not the symptoms!!
6
Your prescription will have far more baleful consequences in the present for whatever unity this country still retains than the presence of a few hundred year old statues.
5
Except that's not why they were erected in public spaces. They were erected in public spaces primarily by daughters of Confederates who were honoring those left. Public spaces were the most logical place to do so where the majority of people would see the monuments.
7
Yeah, being part Cherokee, on my father's side of the family, Columbus wasn't exactly considered to be a hero. Quite a few of the "heroes" of various campaigns against the natives, who bravely slaughtered my ancestors and took their land, would be likewise considered to be villains. On the other hand, while none of my family were slave owners, they fought in the War of Northern Aggression, against the Yankees. My grandmother even kept her grandfather's Confederate uniform.
History has a tendency to side with the winners, while seldom actually looking at the perspective of the losing side. On the other hand, if somebody won, it's almost a certainty that somebody else lost. If a leader was approved of by 70% of the people, that means 30% hated his guts, so a substantial number of people really hate practically every statue in existence. It was a real statement about the level of freedom in this country, when the losing side of the Civil War was allowed to erect monuments to their fallen leaders and generals; in any other country, the losing side would have been forced to honor the very people who defeated them.
If we're going to tear down offensive statues, though, while we're at it, can we please get rid of the statues of Columbus, Custer, John Chivington (Sand Creek Massacre), etc.? For that matter, Chivington was one of Lincoln's favored generals, and Lincoln appointed John Evans, who ordered the massacre.
History has a tendency to side with the winners, while seldom actually looking at the perspective of the losing side. On the other hand, if somebody won, it's almost a certainty that somebody else lost. If a leader was approved of by 70% of the people, that means 30% hated his guts, so a substantial number of people really hate practically every statue in existence. It was a real statement about the level of freedom in this country, when the losing side of the Civil War was allowed to erect monuments to their fallen leaders and generals; in any other country, the losing side would have been forced to honor the very people who defeated them.
If we're going to tear down offensive statues, though, while we're at it, can we please get rid of the statues of Columbus, Custer, John Chivington (Sand Creek Massacre), etc.? For that matter, Chivington was one of Lincoln's favored generals, and Lincoln appointed John Evans, who ordered the massacre.
8
We'll need to take down all statues of Native Americans since they were often brutally violent in dealing with enemy tribes. Doubtless many were guilty of war crimes, crimes against humanity, hate crimes, etc. by today's standards. If we are going to judge Confederates by modern standards then logically we are bound to judge everyone else by the same criteria.
14
Perfect universal justice is a fearsome thing; no-one is left standing.
24
...and we have a winner. As Trump warned: where does it end?
6
The Balbo monument in Chicago should simply be renamed.
The Balbo Monument is a column that was taken from a site about 200 meters outside of Porta Marina in Ostia. Close to Rome, Ostia is a harbor town, founded by a Roman King in the seventh century BCE.
The settlement was written about by Ennius, Livius, Cicero and Dionysius of Halicarnassus. In antiquity the settlement sat at the mouth of the River Tiber. Silt has since changed that situation.
In the 3rd century BCE, it was a naval base heavily used in the Punic Wars.
Balbo Drive in Chicago: That is a major street. Maybe it should be named after a famous former resident. Obama Drive?
The Balbo Monument is a column that was taken from a site about 200 meters outside of Porta Marina in Ostia. Close to Rome, Ostia is a harbor town, founded by a Roman King in the seventh century BCE.
The settlement was written about by Ennius, Livius, Cicero and Dionysius of Halicarnassus. In antiquity the settlement sat at the mouth of the River Tiber. Silt has since changed that situation.
In the 3rd century BCE, it was a naval base heavily used in the Punic Wars.
Balbo Drive in Chicago: That is a major street. Maybe it should be named after a famous former resident. Obama Drive?
4
No, Jean. The column was looted from Ostia. It should be sent back to Italy. On the column stand they can put a statue of whatever they want!
2
When artifacts leave the shores of the original nation without permission, that is looting. When the original nation gives permission for it to permanently leave and be in another nation, it is not looting.
It especially is NOT looting when then the LEADER of that nation of origin personally, and legally, selects the object as a gift to a foreign city, in honor of some event involving that city and the nation of origin.
Your concern is unwarranted in this case. But thank you for wanting to make sure no looted objects are granted sanctuary.
It especially is NOT looting when then the LEADER of that nation of origin personally, and legally, selects the object as a gift to a foreign city, in honor of some event involving that city and the nation of origin.
Your concern is unwarranted in this case. But thank you for wanting to make sure no looted objects are granted sanctuary.
3
The Italian government was the party that moved it and shipped it as a gift to Chicago.
I work on archaeological digs, and am sensitive about looting. This was NOT looted. The government owned it, and gifted it.
I work on archaeological digs, and am sensitive about looting. This was NOT looted. The government owned it, and gifted it.
Even Joan of Arc's statue is getting flack from unknowing people. There is a statue here of Poncho Villa who killed a number Americans in 1915 in Columbus NM. Why is still here? Maybe the town should be renamed for him.
4
How many explorers treated all natives of discovered lands wonderfully?
We cannot dissociate the history of the New World from Columbus.
We cannot dissociate the history of the New World from Columbus.
3
Speaking as a Canadian, the US seems to be in a frenzy of hysteria. It reminds me of Mao's Proletarian Cultural Revolution. The Red Guards attacked and destroyed many of China's most important cultural relics. Fortunately for the US, Mao is not in charge there. You should grateful that Trump, the equivalent of Deng, is there to enforce sanity.
27
It is becoming a frenzy, isn't it?
7
Instead of toppling statues and monuments that are part of American history, however ugly it was, why don't we "add" instead of "cut", as a possible solution? Why don't we add a description plate next to each existing statue, stating that figure's positive actions in advancing American society, as well as the harms that figure had done to hurt native lives, civil rights, human rights, women's rights and so on. In this way, each monument can be informing and reflective of a complicated past, instead of a mere emotional symbol for the present. On top of this, no new statues of these controversial figures should be built.
13
She should change her name to Mao. So should the other revisionists.
4
Great - this puts the Left in the esteemed company of the Taliban in Afghanistan and ISIS in Iraq.
27
There is a thing called common sense. Removing a sportscaster because his name is Robert Lee is ludicrous and does provide talking point for White Supremacists. Destroying these statues is going too far. But putting these statues in a museums with explanations (as Germany has done with Nazi artifacts) rather than in tax supported public areas where they provide rallying points for bigotry is a valid way to keep historical artifacts without offending American citizens.
The media, as in this article, are framing it as an either or situation, inflaming people. Where are the common sense solutions? Hopefully, more people will put some forth.
Insofar as offending people by removing these statues, if they are removed to museums and some people are still offended, they would not have supported avoiding offense to Black and gay Americans in the first place. Councilwoman Gym and Representative Bamberg are correct.
It's time our politicians stood for something other than fear of losing votes.
The media, as in this article, are framing it as an either or situation, inflaming people. Where are the common sense solutions? Hopefully, more people will put some forth.
Insofar as offending people by removing these statues, if they are removed to museums and some people are still offended, they would not have supported avoiding offense to Black and gay Americans in the first place. Councilwoman Gym and Representative Bamberg are correct.
It's time our politicians stood for something other than fear of losing votes.
6
Treating the modern sportscaster that way is ludicrous. Lee is not a rare last name, and Lee isn't uncommon, either. There must be many people in USA with that name.
Do they all suffer career setbacks now?! Absurd.
Do they all suffer career setbacks now?! Absurd.
5
Well then let's start dismantling the Jefferson Memorial and begin the relocation process to the Smithsonian, right? We would need to build another wing to hold it.
3
Too bad a vocal and vociferous minority of liberals--or progressives, if you prefer--have decided that righting every wrong is their most pressing duty, and that anyone who opposes them--for whatever reason--is a "hater". It is hard to understand how the removal of Confederate memorials will lead to any improvement in the lives poor Southern blacks, and it is hard not to believe that this is simply meant to distract from the failure to effect any meaningful change in the self-destructive culture of poor urban blacks.
24
This whole "Monuments" thing is a made-up story to gin up anger about racism. I am not talking about Robert E. Lee or some other very divisive figures of that time. But for goodness sake: This stuff happened hundreds of years ago! Now they are talking about taking down monuments (including Mt. Rushmore!!!) and monuments of Abraham Lincoln (why would that be I wonder) because people (or some very loud and vociferous ones) are screaming that this does not represent their heritage and is offensive. Well, where were they say 10 years ago or during Barack Obama's terms in office. Nothing about this then.
BTW: read an article on Robert E. Lee who said that he didn't believe in these monuments and that the people will heal quicker if these monuments were not erected.
I believe truly that news sources like the New York Times, The Washington Post and others of that ilk are ramping up this story to make people who are ill informed believe that there is a real "crisis" with this issue.
Just made up nonsense when we have so much more to worry about with our nation.
But, I guess it sells papers so The New York Times if thrilled to be ab;e to influence gullible individuals.
BTW: read an article on Robert E. Lee who said that he didn't believe in these monuments and that the people will heal quicker if these monuments were not erected.
I believe truly that news sources like the New York Times, The Washington Post and others of that ilk are ramping up this story to make people who are ill informed believe that there is a real "crisis" with this issue.
Just made up nonsense when we have so much more to worry about with our nation.
But, I guess it sells papers so The New York Times if thrilled to be ab;e to influence gullible individuals.
18
They are. I read a Facebook post by a black woman saying white people are killing them off and want to eliminate every single one of them. Where would she get this fear? That is the media's fault. Even if you look at interracial crime statistics, there are more white people killed by POC than the other way around. Fact. So stop scaring people to encourage them to vote.
5
Yet another Democratic schism: Begala and McCaskill worry that antifa’s crusade for lefty ideological purity in the public square detracts from the larger theme of anti-Trump resistance, while Gym and Farnsworth are hoping to arouse progressive populist furies with coattails big enough to ride on in 2018!
7
Here is an idea: revise the history books used in your schools (and in Puerto Rico's) and tell the truth about all the abuses, pillage, murders, this country has committed from the beginning, even before it was officially an independent nation. That will be more meaningful than removing monuments to make some people feel good and keep pretending you are the light of the world.
5
Lest each of us born in America forget had it not been for someone in our family lineage to emigrate to the great country, faults and all, “you” would not exist. [I blame my parents!]
There is no rewriting our nation’s history; with the yin come the yang.
ESPC is trying to assuage the sensitivities of the rabid college sports fan. After the statues are gone, what’s next, destroy the U.S. currency system because some of the President’s on the paper bills and coins had slaves during the Spanish Slave trade?
Affecting change takes time – Yin/Yang.
There is no rewriting our nation’s history; with the yin come the yang.
ESPC is trying to assuage the sensitivities of the rabid college sports fan. After the statues are gone, what’s next, destroy the U.S. currency system because some of the President’s on the paper bills and coins had slaves during the Spanish Slave trade?
Affecting change takes time – Yin/Yang.
2
I do think our history of ourselves is correcting itself in ways that can only happen under a Democracy.
However, as a lover of art one, can point to myriad works of art about or by controversial figures that are literally in the Pantheon of Art.
What about famous paintings of the Medici family by Botticelli and other great Masters? A ruthless family who would probably not pass a modern day ethics and morals test- yet these paintings are synonymous with Western Painting. What if they had been defaced or removed?
https://www.google.com/search?q=painting+medici&tbm=isch&tbo=u&a...
In another, more local, example - what about a statue of James Brown in Augusta Georgia? He was a serial and violent woman abuser by all accounts.
http://buzz.blog.ajc.com/2016/04/03/james-browns-daughters-launch-new-hi...
She list never stops.
However, as a lover of art one, can point to myriad works of art about or by controversial figures that are literally in the Pantheon of Art.
What about famous paintings of the Medici family by Botticelli and other great Masters? A ruthless family who would probably not pass a modern day ethics and morals test- yet these paintings are synonymous with Western Painting. What if they had been defaced or removed?
https://www.google.com/search?q=painting+medici&tbm=isch&tbo=u&a...
In another, more local, example - what about a statue of James Brown in Augusta Georgia? He was a serial and violent woman abuser by all accounts.
http://buzz.blog.ajc.com/2016/04/03/james-browns-daughters-launch-new-hi...
She list never stops.
6
With the removal of statues, the proscribing of offensive (to some) names, etc. it appears that 1984 has finally arrived, Orwells dictum:
Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.<\blockquote>is being implemented. In another vein, look at much of the media. Their tolerence of Antifa calling them "Peace Activists" and referring to their actions as "Peace through Violence" anticipates the "Ministry of Love."
What's next:
"War is peace?"
"Freedom is slavery?"
"Ignorance is strength?"
How long before the Progressive's "Ministry of Truth" demands that "2 + 2 = 5?"
Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.<\blockquote>is being implemented. In another vein, look at much of the media. Their tolerence of Antifa calling them "Peace Activists" and referring to their actions as "Peace through Violence" anticipates the "Ministry of Love."
What's next:
"War is peace?"
"Freedom is slavery?"
"Ignorance is strength?"
How long before the Progressive's "Ministry of Truth" demands that "2 + 2 = 5?"
22
Liberals are determined to destroy American history and Americans' knowledge of history. It is all part of the left wing, ideologically driven destruction of knowledge already well underway in our public school systems to dumb down voters.
Someday a left wing political candidate will thunder from a podium, "What does America stand for?" The audience will be silent, looking at each other left and right with confusion and curious with anticipation. The politician will smile a big, toothy grin.
America will be exactly what liberal pant for: a blank slate, ready for re-education by propaganda, lies and deceit.
Someday a left wing political candidate will thunder from a podium, "What does America stand for?" The audience will be silent, looking at each other left and right with confusion and curious with anticipation. The politician will smile a big, toothy grin.
America will be exactly what liberal pant for: a blank slate, ready for re-education by propaganda, lies and deceit.
21
Coco Chanel, Nazi collaborator, who fled to Switzerland to avoid prosecution after WWII. Hugo Boss, early and committed Nazi.
And it was Abraham Lincoln who said:
"I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. "
And it was Abraham Lincoln who said:
"I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. "
9
I didn't know that about Coco Chanel. I knew that Hugo Boss was an enthusiastic Nazi and designed all uniformed for the Nazis. In my household, we refuse to own anything of his brand for that reason.
1
Chanel had a Nazi lover who may have spied for the British.
It's all very murky, and there's good reason to believe that Winston Churchill--an old friend of Chanel's--had a hand in keeping it murky, which--if nothing else--shows a sort of class solidarity. (As for Chanel, it was always all about Chanel. Hard to imagine she might fathom a higher good.)
It's all very murky, and there's good reason to believe that Winston Churchill--an old friend of Chanel's--had a hand in keeping it murky, which--if nothing else--shows a sort of class solidarity. (As for Chanel, it was always all about Chanel. Hard to imagine she might fathom a higher good.)
1
Yes. and Channel's lover during the occupation was Nazi officer Hans Gunther von Dicklage. They lived, if I remember well, at the Ritz in Paris.
This is precisely why, though liberals rule the cultural heights of our nation, conservatives rule the country--both houses of Congress, the Supreme Court and the Presidency.
17
Removing statues, fighting in the streets between antagonistic groups, labelling everyone who doesn't agree with another's political views as racist or as a white supremacist or the holder of "white privilege" -- please show me how many working class Americans living in Appalachia or other depressed areas of our country have "white privilege"--, changing school curricula to accommodate the latest pc cause du jour and the wasting of taxpayer monies to continue this insanity are the hallmarks of a society which is so desperately in need of introspection and reflection.
Many handily blame President Trump for the poor image of America at home and abroad. Let us look at ourselves. The pitiful state of our country began long before President Trump entered the White House. Previous administrations have reduced military spending-- we have only to look at the true cost of that reduction on our Navy with the recent loss of lives , the growth of ISIS in Europe, the Philippines and in our country, Occupy Wall Street, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan , the debasing of police, the desperate state of public education in some cities, the IRS abuses of power against groups labelled as conservative while other groups some of which are in the streets today fomenting civic, social, and political unrest and continue to act out with impunity. "The fault, dear Brutus, lies not within our stars but in ourselves."
Many handily blame President Trump for the poor image of America at home and abroad. Let us look at ourselves. The pitiful state of our country began long before President Trump entered the White House. Previous administrations have reduced military spending-- we have only to look at the true cost of that reduction on our Navy with the recent loss of lives , the growth of ISIS in Europe, the Philippines and in our country, Occupy Wall Street, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan , the debasing of police, the desperate state of public education in some cities, the IRS abuses of power against groups labelled as conservative while other groups some of which are in the streets today fomenting civic, social, and political unrest and continue to act out with impunity. "The fault, dear Brutus, lies not within our stars but in ourselves."
19
This is both stupid and wrong. Stupid, because it gives Trump and the right wing a potent highly emotional rallying cause. If this becomes a major issue in 2018 and 2020 it can only benefit one side, the one that requires voters to vote values and emotions, not issues and competence, and that has always been the right wing, especially its more authoritarian and fascist elements.
It's also wrong, because any attempt to rewrite history is to perpetrate a fraud on society, especially its future generations, and that is morally wrong.
Rather than remove statues, put other statues that reflect how our values as a society have changed. Next to Lee and other Confederate heroes, or in another equally conspicuous and visited locations, put statues of notable Afro-American and Native American freedom fighters and civil right activists, such as the Amistad, Nat Turner, John Brown, Sitting Bull, Red Cloud, Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King, Harriet Tubman etc.
You do not rectify past wrongs by pretending they never existed, but by taking responsibility for them.
It's also wrong, because any attempt to rewrite history is to perpetrate a fraud on society, especially its future generations, and that is morally wrong.
Rather than remove statues, put other statues that reflect how our values as a society have changed. Next to Lee and other Confederate heroes, or in another equally conspicuous and visited locations, put statues of notable Afro-American and Native American freedom fighters and civil right activists, such as the Amistad, Nat Turner, John Brown, Sitting Bull, Red Cloud, Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King, Harriet Tubman etc.
You do not rectify past wrongs by pretending they never existed, but by taking responsibility for them.
15
It's hard not to point out that iconoclasm is a tradition of leftist dictatorships throughout history, as much if not more than those on the right. I don't see much difference between destruction of these symbols and those of Petra or the Buddhas of Bamiyan.
15
Crazy thought but what if we left all of the statues up BUT affixed more detailed stories to them that give the whole picture. The Nazi Death camp of Auschwitz (and others) still stands and I would never want to see them taken down lest we forget. Just let's make sure not to sanitize the stories that go with them.
Surprisingly many confederate statues would say "erected 60 years after the confederacy lost the civil war but resulted from a rise in racist movements in the South". I want to know that truth and want that reminder of how low humanity can go so we can try to rise above it. I think there would be less white supremacists (there will never be zero) if they grew up in a world where there were constant reminders of failure and bad judgement attached to those generals on horses. As opposed to sweeping those under the rug.
Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.
Surprisingly many confederate statues would say "erected 60 years after the confederacy lost the civil war but resulted from a rise in racist movements in the South". I want to know that truth and want that reminder of how low humanity can go so we can try to rise above it. I think there would be less white supremacists (there will never be zero) if they grew up in a world where there were constant reminders of failure and bad judgement attached to those generals on horses. As opposed to sweeping those under the rug.
Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.
8
The buying and selling of human beings is a moral outrage, a sentiment now shared by 99.99% of all Americans (and the rest belong in an asylum). Having achieved this consensus, perhaps we can now move beyond statues and focus our time and energy on progress in other areas.
6
Tearing down these man-made objects is an action of futility. On the other hand, voting, local and national, every election produces results. Your conscience is heard and counted. No violence. No loss of lives.
7
Confronted with the insanity that is rapidly enveloping us, the left proposes a bright line test: treason. Nobody believes it stops there. Witness many of the comments below.
It simply is not credible to argue that monuments to racist exterminators (Andy Jackson's Trail of Tears?) or slave owners (Washington, Jefferson and countless others who are an essential part of our history) will remain in place while we confine our attention to a legal analysis of treason.
It simply is not credible to argue that monuments to racist exterminators (Andy Jackson's Trail of Tears?) or slave owners (Washington, Jefferson and countless others who are an essential part of our history) will remain in place while we confine our attention to a legal analysis of treason.
7
Lovely… the same folks who consider Nazi marches their persona “fight club” are now in charge of what’s appropriate public art? The previous generation of lefties celebrated the BDSM homoeroticism of Mapplethorpe, and their children are busy purging the public square of what they deem “racist, insensitive or inappropriate,” eerily similar to the jackbooted thugs they’re ostensibly saving us from. What could go wrong? Can’t wait until some right-of-center cohort tries getting in on this idiocy, demanding the removal of a statue of some lefty icon they deem “racist, insensitive or inappropriate” – e.g., Margaret Sanger, or Huey Newton – only to get told their hurt feelings &/or ruffled ideological feathers aren’t the flavor of the millennium.
And why should antifa limit its prohibitory energies to 3-D statuary? What of photographs, oil paintings, and engravings? And hey, if the public library won’t “get on the bus” – pull books (or authors) deemed “racist, insensitive or inappropriate” from circulation – good little resisters should perform the public service of stealing them off the shelves and disposing of them. (Actually burning them might be too reminiscent of the National Socialism.)
And why should antifa limit its prohibitory energies to 3-D statuary? What of photographs, oil paintings, and engravings? And hey, if the public library won’t “get on the bus” – pull books (or authors) deemed “racist, insensitive or inappropriate” from circulation – good little resisters should perform the public service of stealing them off the shelves and disposing of them. (Actually burning them might be too reminiscent of the National Socialism.)
15
Wasn't George Washington a slave holder? Must he come off dollar bills? Jefferson off 2 dollar bills? When will it stop?
8
Remove FDR statues now. His racist past of imprisoning Japanese Americans in concentration camps here in America is horrid.
10
Monuments of any kind are the most ridiculous things the human mind could conceive of. What purpose do they serve? None as far as I can ascertain. For whom do they pay homage to? The dead? The wars? What about the living? The ones whose lives were put into the breach? How about the survivors who come home permanently damaged physically and psychologically? No monument can do them justice.
Memorials are something completely different. They pay somber homage and reflection upon a specific event. The 9/11/01 memorial of late comes to mind. There is no glory, no sense of some victory over terrorism, because there is no such thing as victory for a never-ending cycle of mindless violence committed by one group against another.
The most striking memorial I can recall is the one which the commemorates a day of infamy on a Sunday morning in December of 1941 in Hawaii. The Pearl Harbor Memorial at the USS Arizona evokes precisely what war is: a waste of precious human life, a proud dreadnought which lies at the bottom of the harbor, forever sealing its precious human cargo in its hold, the battleship now a collective coffin.
Four years later their brothers in arms would claim victory over those who attacked them on that day. But those who lie in the USS Arizona will never know that, never share in their victory. Millions will die before V-E and V-J days. No monument can ever express the cruelty humans exact upon each other.
DD
Manhattan
Memorials are something completely different. They pay somber homage and reflection upon a specific event. The 9/11/01 memorial of late comes to mind. There is no glory, no sense of some victory over terrorism, because there is no such thing as victory for a never-ending cycle of mindless violence committed by one group against another.
The most striking memorial I can recall is the one which the commemorates a day of infamy on a Sunday morning in December of 1941 in Hawaii. The Pearl Harbor Memorial at the USS Arizona evokes precisely what war is: a waste of precious human life, a proud dreadnought which lies at the bottom of the harbor, forever sealing its precious human cargo in its hold, the battleship now a collective coffin.
Four years later their brothers in arms would claim victory over those who attacked them on that day. But those who lie in the USS Arizona will never know that, never share in their victory. Millions will die before V-E and V-J days. No monument can ever express the cruelty humans exact upon each other.
DD
Manhattan
5
The Socialist/Marxist agenda marches on. This is the single most dangerous movement in our country. A failed system under the label of progressivism. I has never worked in any significant manor without despotism taking hold. They haven't taught history in our schools for decade without socialist propaganda. Ths shining light on the hill is fading fast!
10
Huh. Looks like President Trump was right again: "Where will it end?"
15
I do think it is time for Atlanta to put up a statue of General Sherman, an important part of its history.
Having said that, while many of these monuments should go, I think many should stay. On the almost certainly leave alone list should be:
1. Those dedicated to common soldiers. Note that Germany does have these for its WWII soldiers while avoiding the politics.
2. Those honoring someone for some other aspect of their lives. (By extension, I dislike striping awards from living people after a scandal if they actually did do what they were previously honored for.)
3. Memorials at related places: cemetaries, battlefields, birth-homes, churches, etc.
4. Those created in the spirit of reconciliation. Maryland's monument at Gettsyburg comes to mind, which honors Marylanders on both sides of the battle (also exempt via #1 and #3).
After that, I would use some judgement on a case-by-case basis.
I do not think any state should have so many monuments that the Civil War dominates. However, both sides in this debate (including some academic historians) have oversimplified history. Slavery was what drove secession, but it is still true that many fought for the right to secede. It is hard to understand American history without recognizing the Civil War as an extension of the Hamilton/Jefferson debate.
Having said that, while many of these monuments should go, I think many should stay. On the almost certainly leave alone list should be:
1. Those dedicated to common soldiers. Note that Germany does have these for its WWII soldiers while avoiding the politics.
2. Those honoring someone for some other aspect of their lives. (By extension, I dislike striping awards from living people after a scandal if they actually did do what they were previously honored for.)
3. Memorials at related places: cemetaries, battlefields, birth-homes, churches, etc.
4. Those created in the spirit of reconciliation. Maryland's monument at Gettsyburg comes to mind, which honors Marylanders on both sides of the battle (also exempt via #1 and #3).
After that, I would use some judgement on a case-by-case basis.
I do not think any state should have so many monuments that the Civil War dominates. However, both sides in this debate (including some academic historians) have oversimplified history. Slavery was what drove secession, but it is still true that many fought for the right to secede. It is hard to understand American history without recognizing the Civil War as an extension of the Hamilton/Jefferson debate.
6
Next we will be wanting to remove all traces of FDR, for the camps he ran during WW 2. Then I suppose we need to remove LBJ since he had a twenty year record of voting against civil rights.
How much of history do we want to hide?
How much of history do we want to hide?
14
All of our leaders have been flawed humans.
2
A solution is simple. 50 yards from the statue of Robert E. Lee place a statue of a union soldier as he might have looked in the minutes after the fight at Gettysburg ended. He's facing Lee, expressionless, his hat knocked to the side, he is otherwise disheveled, there are 2 or 3 bullets left in his bandolier sling, there is complete exhaustion on his face. And make the soldier African-American.
3
It sounds more like the taliban destroying traditional monuments. The Left is destroying itself with their lack of credibility.
13
I say be smart, be selective with monument removal. I live in Nashville, where there are monuments all around here honoring Nathan Bedford Forrest - co-founder of the Klan, responsible for the Fort Pillow massacre in 1864. One is a bust in our state's Capitol. Take those down now. They should never have been put up.
5
I guess then we need to remove every Catholic Church while we are at it given the amount of child abuse within its doors, right? Folks, removing historical markers of our past does not in and of its self suddenly remove what is the hearts and minds of people today. We can also learn from these markers of the past as symbols of what never to repeat. The Germans did not remove all traces of the concentration camps; they serve as a powerful reminder and lesson to us all.
3
The only way 1,000 people are able to rule a country of 300,000,000 is if they can keep the people divided, if they can keep the people from forming a true majority and voting accordingly. Thus, the goal is to sow dissent, and the ruling class uses the tools it owns, including the media, for this purpose.
The critical variable is that the people are stupid. They can't see how they are being manipulated, and they especially can't see how much they have in common with each other, even if they disagree on such nonsense as assault weapons and transgender bathrooms.
Part of the scheme, and we don't have to call it a "conspiracy", because as Gore Vidal noticed, "They don't have to conspire, because they already all think alike," is to provoke and then exploit outrage.
Indeed, there is a outrage industry now. Outrage spreads like a wild fire. One spark, and off it goes indiscriminately. Even if the conclusions are logically inconsistent, it is not enough to dissuade the believers. To the contrary, illogical appears to be the fuel they survive on.
I suspect that science will eventually prove that outrage is like a crack high. Each new occasion demands a larger does.
I realize that there's money and jobs in this for the media, but if there's even a hint of truth to the idea that they are the Fourth Estate and have a role in governance, many of the propagandists ought to go look in the mirror and ask whether they are helping or hurting the people with all of this noise.
The critical variable is that the people are stupid. They can't see how they are being manipulated, and they especially can't see how much they have in common with each other, even if they disagree on such nonsense as assault weapons and transgender bathrooms.
Part of the scheme, and we don't have to call it a "conspiracy", because as Gore Vidal noticed, "They don't have to conspire, because they already all think alike," is to provoke and then exploit outrage.
Indeed, there is a outrage industry now. Outrage spreads like a wild fire. One spark, and off it goes indiscriminately. Even if the conclusions are logically inconsistent, it is not enough to dissuade the believers. To the contrary, illogical appears to be the fuel they survive on.
I suspect that science will eventually prove that outrage is like a crack high. Each new occasion demands a larger does.
I realize that there's money and jobs in this for the media, but if there's even a hint of truth to the idea that they are the Fourth Estate and have a role in governance, many of the propagandists ought to go look in the mirror and ask whether they are helping or hurting the people with all of this noise.
6
Slippery slope starts here. What are we going to do now? Hunt through every shred of American history (throw in Columbus, too!) for every perceived bias and tear down statues and rewrite books? Why?! Different time, different values, deal with it. People have such weak sensibilities and sensitivities. Time to move on and live a life of strength instead of letting a statue offend you and impact your daily life?! Please ... President Obama was write, there are many teachable moments out there.
11
Put every single monument to any historical and living persons behind a shroud. Then the nation can take a few deep breaths and contemplate the situation. A "time out."
By the way, this will include Mt. Rushmore. And it has to.
By the way, this will include Mt. Rushmore. And it has to.
1
When will this stupidity stop.
When, like any revolutionary movement start to eat their own (French, Russian, Chinese, Laos, Venezuela et al .
I believe the big showdown will occur when the LGBT movement starts calling for the removal of the Martin Luther King monuments to be torn down because King was a reverend (and we know we can't have religious symbols in public places), and a christian and he was anti gay (read his response to a young man struggling with homosexuality, printed in "ebony").
When, like any revolutionary movement start to eat their own (French, Russian, Chinese, Laos, Venezuela et al .
I believe the big showdown will occur when the LGBT movement starts calling for the removal of the Martin Luther King monuments to be torn down because King was a reverend (and we know we can't have religious symbols in public places), and a christian and he was anti gay (read his response to a young man struggling with homosexuality, printed in "ebony").
15
Dems. Think strategically for once!
This sort of groupthink, herd mentality, extreme leftism is a recipe for an 8-yr Trump presidency.
Columbus? Really?! How many of you would put a venture together to head off to Space with a high likelihood of never returning?
This sort of groupthink, herd mentality, extreme leftism is a recipe for an 8-yr Trump presidency.
Columbus? Really?! How many of you would put a venture together to head off to Space with a high likelihood of never returning?
9
I'm in favor of removing statues, changing street names, etc. But these are symptoms of problems -- not the problems themselves.
6
When politics mirror the stock market. Volatility.
Extreme positions that only garranty extreme reactions .
Or how to best help one's oponent.
Extreme positions that only garranty extreme reactions .
Or how to best help one's oponent.
1
Iconoclasm - ban on images representing humans or even animals - is well established in two major religions, Judaism and Islam, and periodically influential elsewhere. In Bysantium, iconoclasts were destroying religious imagery as pagan, French revolutionaries were destroying statuary in churches, the taliban blew the Buddas in Babiyan, now Americans of both colors, red and blue, are turning on statuary. From a similar impulse, puritans of many stripes have been trying to eliminate porn. All of those attacks target one of the strongest human inclinations, which is to make and worship or at least admire and enjoy art. Politics comes next to exploit both tendencies. Fighting iconoclasm is hopeless, ridiculing it may help.
1
Confederate statues celebrate the enslavement by our country of people based on color. That is why they should be removed. Slavery is to our country what Nazism was to Germany. It is something to admit and repair as much as possible.
1
Slavery is part of what made this country great. Without it USA would not have the rich cultural heritage and vibrancy the black slaves and, more importantly, their descendants have contributed to this wonderful but flawed country.
1
Your analogy is flawed. Nazism was born in Germany and the systematic extermination of Jews was unique to a time and place in Germany. Slavery is as old as mankind and continues to this day around the world in the form of human trafficking and forced labor. Slavery neither has its roots, nor was abolished last in America.
13
So, the issue is not treason, but slave-owning? You just demonstrated that Trump is precisely on target.
4
Please specify that the Balbo monument in Chicago is not a statue to him, but a two thousand year old Roman Corinthian column.
2
Precisely. And Italy can't ask for and expect its return, because there is great documentation of provenance of the gift from the nation.
1
People need to get hold of themselves. The daily dose of mass hysteria we are now continually subjected to accomplishes little unless you consider more division, more reasons for people to succumb to their tribal instincts, a numbness to legitimate racism, and a rapidly approaching second civil war accomplishments. No wonder ISIL is content to focus its attention elsewhere.
24
Its not about statues, its about Nazis and white supremacists.
1
I thought it was about treason, and only treason.
4
How about we enact a federal law that no statues go up on public property until the honoree has been dead at least 100 years?
No way does the Rizzo statue go up in 2091! Call it a "statue of limitation" law.
No way does the Rizzo statue go up in 2091! Call it a "statue of limitation" law.
What terrifying nonsense. When one reads this, and about 'no platforming', it's clear we need a new term for this intolerance. Alt Liberal fascism?
13
What is next? Books that depict or describe past evils without condemning them? Newspapers with a political bent? (Name one, just one, that doesn't.)
I am reminded of Bradbury's "Fahrenheit 451". And of George Santayana: "Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
I am reminded of Bradbury's "Fahrenheit 451". And of George Santayana: "Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
11
You've just described intersectionality -- that's what it is, with no redeemiing end in sight -- just hate
1
When Jesus made a whip and drove the merchants, cattle, and money changers out of the temple (John 2 15), this was an act of terrorism. We should pull down all statues of Christ at once.
2
Which dictionary definition of terrorism are you using? Vehicular murder is rather different than clearing a crowd.
God rest Heather Heyer's soul but if she had not died this story would have died. Now people with all the time in the world on their hands(evidently) are going to string this out forever. Italo Balbo? The Italian Airman who denounced Mussolini allying with Hitler? His statue is coming down and nobody knew who he even was. 99% of these statues were WPA artists who were put to work by FDR in the Depression..It would cost at least $500k each to replace them..Millions destroyed and how does anyone change. Not to mimic trump but this is truly fake news!
11
There is no statue of Italo Balbo, but an innocent two-thousand year old Roman Corinthian column, which was looted from Ostia and gifted to Chicago. Given that most people demonstrating against it would probably not even find Roman on a map, I'd say: return that column to its right owners! Back to Italy it should go!!
2
If the Italian government moved it, and gifted it to Chicago, it was NOT looted.
I hope Chicago keeps it, but that is their choice.
I hope Chicago keeps it, but that is their choice.
1
Why are there still monuments to FDR? FDR not only sang the praises of Italian fascist dictator Mussolini, but imprisoned 120,000 Japanese in concentration camps!!! If that isn't white supremacy then nothing is!
11
Did he rebel against the state for the purpose of maintaining an immoral system? Were his statues put up for the purposes of cowing Japanese?
2
This becomes a "scratch my issue , first" competition and it is always a prime reason why left wing or even middle of the road candidates get creamed. Mosdt people don't like to see the system get slapped around by special interests like Confederates. But their offenses are often over a hundred years old. When today's voters see people use the same technique to try and regulate thought and influence public observation of various religious or cultural issues and ideas, it makes the left seem even wackier and further out then the right.
This is how we rid ourselves of the Democratic coalition in the 1960's. Democrats themselves began to question the motives and morality of all the people representing them in government. The result was-and may be-that the left simply again gives the keys to the government system to its enemies because it refuses to trust its own people with the job because one or two were caught stealing stamps or using paper clips from the office.
This is how we rid ourselves of the Democratic coalition in the 1960's. Democrats themselves began to question the motives and morality of all the people representing them in government. The result was-and may be-that the left simply again gives the keys to the government system to its enemies because it refuses to trust its own people with the job because one or two were caught stealing stamps or using paper clips from the office.
2
Hello. . . ? This is the same type of arrogance and over reach that cost progressives the 2016 election. Are you really going to stick you hand back in the fire?
13
What kind of nation would allow streets, schools, scholarships, military bases, post offices, etc to be named after Robert Byrd??? Byrd was a Democratic Senator from West Virginia and a leader in the W. Va. KKK!!!!!!
4
This is where I draw the line. The reason for repositioning Confederate statues honoring individuals is that those individuals were traitors, by definition. They led a rebellion against the Republic. The memorials to ordinary soldiers of the Confederacy are another matter. They are anonymous war dead that got caught up in a fight fomented by more powerful and influential others -- as what happens in every war. They deserve to be commemorated because they had no influential role, responsibility or influence in deciding to rebel. Call them cannon fodder, which is tragic on its own. The other figures being targeted are certainly open to debate; there are no saints here. Everyone is flawed. The operative question is, did they do something(s) for which they should be honored as exemplars of the kind of one-off or continuous leadership we as a nation cherish and wish to see emulated? It's not a bad thing to re-evaluate, for it gives us the opportunity to measure our progress to that "more perfect union". But let's make sure we're not just throwing the baby out with the bath water.
7
Agreed. Great contribution to the debate. There is some middle ground that makes sense. Thank you for making a claim to it.
1
Don't you folks understand; there are a whole lot of folks out there who just get a kick out of protesting. And it gives them something to do rather than looking for a job. I say leave them to it. We may loose a few statues that should have been maintained; but it is better than having them out supporting some positive proposals that would perhaps get the liberals winning some elections again. One would have thought that the disastrous results of the 2016 elections for liberals and the Democratic party would have taght then that attacking the other guy and their platform rather than roposing their own, was not a success formula. But no they continue to attack every Republican proposal rather than offering their own. Even in the several elections since November they seem to just keep falling on that same sword. So again I say let them continue to charge windmills; better that than coming up with some of their own proposals and perhaps winning a seat or two back in Congress, state legislatures around the nation and governor's mansions.
3
I am greatly offended when leftists burn or desecrate an American flag. However, the left is allowed to engage in this behavior because of the guarantees of free speech. If the statues are removed to satisfy Democrats and other leftists, then flag burning should again be against the law.
9
So we look around us and discover that we have been honoring a lot of deplorable people as heroes, and we wonder why we have separatists, white nationalists, and neo-Nazis?
3
Typical
This is out of control with all this political correctness.
Your offended by it, don't look at it!
This is out of control with all this political correctness.
Your offended by it, don't look at it!
11
As long as you are OK on the same grounds with a community deciding to remove Crow-era confederate statues, like Baltimore did. Can I get an amen?
2
I am with you, Andrew. Let each community make their own decisions about each item. Whether to keep/move/relabel or junk.
1
In truth, megalomaniac politicians should probably never have gotten statues in the first place. For example, right near Faneuil Hall in Boston is a behemoth if a statue of former Mayor Kevin White. It is much larger than the nearby statue to John Adams. I happened to chat with the former mayor and his daughter in front of his statue when they made a private visit to the statue in his declining years. It was poignant, but really, a 9' statue?
There is no statue of Alexander Graham Bell in Boston although thee is a small plaque commemorating the location of his invention of the telephone. Bell certainly had a greater positive influence than White.
The there is the Zakim Bridge named for a flash in the pan city councilor who was undoubtedly a flawed individual as we all are. It should have been named only after Bunker Hill.
JFK international airport used to be called Idlewild. Revert the name. JFK allegedly attached Mimi Alford on jackie's bed. He is no one to honor.
FDR. I'm sure we can find innumerable racially tinged statements from him given the years in which he lived. OUT!
LOL!!!
There is no statue of Alexander Graham Bell in Boston although thee is a small plaque commemorating the location of his invention of the telephone. Bell certainly had a greater positive influence than White.
The there is the Zakim Bridge named for a flash in the pan city councilor who was undoubtedly a flawed individual as we all are. It should have been named only after Bunker Hill.
JFK international airport used to be called Idlewild. Revert the name. JFK allegedly attached Mimi Alford on jackie's bed. He is no one to honor.
FDR. I'm sure we can find innumerable racially tinged statements from him given the years in which he lived. OUT!
LOL!!!
4
These attempts to dismantle history because something as inane as a statue offends a group reminds me of the communists in the 1930's or the Taliban who had "truth commissions" or morality squads or should we dare say thought police. This is dangerous ground and will destroy the Democratic party because of its acquiescence to the far left. Of course, I am not say this last thought is a bad thing.
11
If I didn't think that the purveyors of identity politics weren't idiotic enough to continue on their path to destroying America, I'd say that KKK, religious right, and neo-Nazi trolls have whispered encouragement in regard to the removal of all these statues.
4
Listen to Larry Sabato.
As a Mexican-American, I and the majority of Latin American people literally would not exist if not for Columbus and the scores of Spaniards who raped, pillaged and oppressed the natives. That recognizable ambiguity is not the case with statues honoring Confederate leaders, who were inarguably traitors to the U.S., and whose statues were erected to intimidate Black Americans and remind them and their White counterparts that the former were at best second-class citizens.
Liberal extremists: stop playing into the fake president's dirty little hands.
Liberal extremists: stop playing into the fake president's dirty little hands.
14
In Paris, one of the great cities of the world, Napoleon's tomb is an obligatory stop for tourists. It's magnificent. Yet, Napoleon was one of the world's most noted imperialists, overrunning most of continental Europe and causing pain and bloodshed everywhere he went. Should Paris take down his monument, too?
2
Traitors who fought a treasonous war against the US killing hundreds of thousands of loyal Americans and causing massive devastation in order to perpetuate slavery are in a class by themselves.
3
And what of the secessionists in California?
2
I'm fine with tearing down or moving the statues of everyone who was racist. To be fair, however, we'll need to do the same for statues of everyone who was anti-Semitic, sexist, homophobic, etc.
3
I don't think anyone with any significant level of support is seriously advocating such a sweeping move,.
So, focussing simply on the issue at hand, what reason would you give for not removing Crow-era celebrations of a rebellion to a museum where they can be properly put in context?
So, focussing simply on the issue at hand, what reason would you give for not removing Crow-era celebrations of a rebellion to a museum where they can be properly put in context?
3
Andrew: the answer is that it's already happening (cf. Mayor Rizzo, Christopher Columbus). It's widest expression has not happened--yet--but it is a straight line from today's arguments to it. And the time required will be measured in months, if not weeks.
Finally, I do believe Nancy Pelosi is calling for removal of selected portraits and statues from the Capitol. As titular head of the Democratic party, she qualifies as having "significant support".
Finally, I do believe Nancy Pelosi is calling for removal of selected portraits and statues from the Capitol. As titular head of the Democratic party, she qualifies as having "significant support".
For an excellent take on this: see the interview with Mark Lilla in The New Yorker.
1
I look forward to DiBlasio's commission and its decisions to tear down multiple statues. That might just get us a republican mayor!
10
Interesting that the article neglected to mention parallel events outside the U.S. Monuments are not just coming down in America. The Taliban destroyed Buddhas and ISIS virtually eradicated Palmyra's monuments. With the promotion of morality being the common reason in all cases.
10
Why won't the spineless politicians let the people vote on the statutes.
1
A vote?? An election???? Another election controlled by the Russians and Diebolt who programs voting machines to give the result that the 1% oligarchy wants in opposition to the will of the people who oppose Citizen's United and the Koch Brothers buying elections blah blah blah?!?!?! Violent destruction and confiscation of property is the only solution the Left sees
3
I suspect that many of the posters here would agree with me that Americans were on the wrong side of the moral divide in Vietnam. The full count will never be known, but over a million Vietnamese died in that war. Many would say that the motivation was racist - that life in Vietnam was 'cheap', in the words of Westmoreland. So, should we tear down the Vietnam War memorial? No, it's not quite the same as a statue of some general on a horse, but nevertheless, it honors people fought a war for all the wrong reasons.
5
There is a difference between a memorial to a people's fallen warriors--regardless of righteousness, regardless of victory--and a monument to a cause, or to a specific leader who exemplifies the cause. The Vietnam memorial is clearly of the first type, which upset some people at the time but which immunizes it against differing or shifting understandings of the meaning of that war. I think that, as a matter of design, there are Confederate statues of both sorts.
6
The next step is the vilification of the Founding Fathers Washington, Jefferson, etc. as they owned slaves. The end goal is the removal of the constitution.
Enough is enough.
Enough is enough.
6
For some people, possibly, but do you have any evidence that the majority who would like to see Crow era Confederate statues come down would want to go that far? If not, then it would be good to debate the removal of these statues on their own merits.
1
In less than two weeks we have gone from Lee to Columbus.
Jefferson authorized Louisiana Purchase which celebrated the demise of Native Americans on the Plains States. Is he next? Probably one of the top 5 thinkers in he history of the world.
Jefferson authorized Louisiana Purchase which celebrated the demise of Native Americans on the Plains States. Is he next? Probably one of the top 5 thinkers in he history of the world.
3
Wouldn't it be a fair compromise to put all this energy spent on monuments into actually teaching history to kids in school? Whether you're for or against a particular statue, if you're confident in your knowledge of the subject, the chunk of metal in town square becomes less relevant. Let's put the debate on hold, teach the next generation history, and let them decide.
5
Are you proposing that this next generation then be tested to see if they have understood the history better? What are your reasons for thinking that this generation does not already know its history well enough? Unless you are referring to those who repeatedly refuse to acknowledge the role of slavery in the secession of the south, in which case, you may have to wait a long time for them to gain that knowledge.
1
Unfortunately Bagels is right. while racial bigotry and slavery are a stain on our history, in hindsight making this a modern day political issue will simply play into the hands of the conservatives and hurt Democrats. Simply one more thing to shoot ourselves in the foot
2
Sure, take down all the statues of every historical figure guilty of any systematic oppression. Come to think of it, women are the group most consistently oppressed in the West since the dawn of the Christian era. As a woman, I would like to see all statues of males removed from public places.
6
Okay. Alright. I am sick of this nonsense.
Seriously. Are we to remove statues and archives of Civil War 'heroes' only to replace them with tributes to the LGBTQ community with statues and art exhibits? How can we teach the decimation of our indigenous peoples without breeding xenophobia?
Must we peer into every window of the despair that we have wrought? The more we glorify these issues, the more chaos we create.
My children are not racist. They were not given the option. Are they to doubt the equality of all?
My children do not yet question their sexual identity. Should I present the myriad of choices?
My children still find solace in their home. They do not yet fear every knock at the door.
We have created division among our people. We focus on our differences instead of celebrating our cohesion.
Seriously. Are we to remove statues and archives of Civil War 'heroes' only to replace them with tributes to the LGBTQ community with statues and art exhibits? How can we teach the decimation of our indigenous peoples without breeding xenophobia?
Must we peer into every window of the despair that we have wrought? The more we glorify these issues, the more chaos we create.
My children are not racist. They were not given the option. Are they to doubt the equality of all?
My children do not yet question their sexual identity. Should I present the myriad of choices?
My children still find solace in their home. They do not yet fear every knock at the door.
We have created division among our people. We focus on our differences instead of celebrating our cohesion.
2
It is good that you would like to remove division, and I for one would not want to see these statues replaced by LGBTQ flavors of the day. However, have you ever thought about the fact that these Crow-era statues are divisive, celebrating a time when the South seceded in order to maintain slavery? To avoid peering into these windows, it would be good to remove these. Perhaps not now in the heat of controversy and while Trump et al are using them as a smokescreen, but sooner rather than later.
3
I think it's a lot more than "some" who find it to be "an example of politically correct sentiments gone too far, with the potential to mobilize the right and alienate the center."
One can generally tell where reporters' sentiments lie by the final quote - who gets the last word.
One can generally tell where reporters' sentiments lie by the final quote - who gets the last word.
6
Claiming that Liberals are requesting all these removals is painting a broad stroke on Progressives! I think many Liberals are not in the forefront of what some in the media might be perceiving!
2
it's so classic. "activists" start a symbolic battle cry, naively believing that they'll fall into perfect unity re which statues get the axe. and then we have al sharpton, of all people, going after the jefferson memorial, without a hint of irony. we see a statue of abraham lincoln burned in chicago. so when does it end, people? who sets the rules? you have no answer.
this is already a non issue for most americans, and by pushing it, you'll alienate even more centrist voters. nice job.
this is already a non issue for most americans, and by pushing it, you'll alienate even more centrist voters. nice job.
4
Your point is well taken. However, if the issue could be put into the background again, would you not agree that it is long past time for these Crow-era celebrations of a rebellion to maintain slavery to be moved into museums? Delay it by all means, but make it clear where you stand, and why.
1
Here is a nice, easy solution - leftist political activists can pass out petitions to have a given statue removed, and if enough local residents sign it, the matter can be placed on a referendum ballot. Then, local residents can vote to have it removed, or to have it stay.
See? Really easy. This will allow for some statutes to be removed, and for some to stay. But the matter will be decided LEGALLY, and will be decided LOCALLY.
Yet that will never satisfy the totalitarian Left. As always, they want to push their utopian agenda onto local communities. And that is a central reason why they are helping Trump, helping the Right, and are alienating the broader public.
See? Really easy. This will allow for some statutes to be removed, and for some to stay. But the matter will be decided LEGALLY, and will be decided LOCALLY.
Yet that will never satisfy the totalitarian Left. As always, they want to push their utopian agenda onto local communities. And that is a central reason why they are helping Trump, helping the Right, and are alienating the broader public.
6
Your solution sounds good to me. Presumably this means that you support the removal of the statues from Baltimore, since they went through this process.
1
To my knowledge, apart from the one case of vandalism in Durham which is being prosecuted, no statues have come down except by the decisions of locally-elected representatives. Maybe simple referenda would be better, but that *is* a legal, local, democratic process. I'm not seeing where the "totalitarian Left" is in this.
1
Ok... let's say that all the monuments that are found offensive are removed. Will that suffice? Or are these protestors simply borderline personalities who are constantly searching for and finding objects for their internal rage?
8
Forget the protestors. Forget the ridiculous enlargement of the debate. What would be the right thing to do with Crow-era celebrations of a revolt to protect a scandalous system of slavery that has few equals in history?
2
Andrew: no.
The same impulse that underlies getting rid of the Confederate statues underlies a dramatic expansion of the revolt. If you accept that racism, sexism, colonialism and imperialism, among other 21st century betes-noire, are intolerable, there is simply no way to avoid a dramatic expansion. There is no principled distinction, and the underlying passions are strong.
This will happen, sooner rather than later. Yes, FDR (who interned the Japanese) and Jack Kennedy (who treated women as disposable playthings) will take a little longer, because they are more tecent and both were Democrats. But it is coming.
The same impulse that underlies getting rid of the Confederate statues underlies a dramatic expansion of the revolt. If you accept that racism, sexism, colonialism and imperialism, among other 21st century betes-noire, are intolerable, there is simply no way to avoid a dramatic expansion. There is no principled distinction, and the underlying passions are strong.
This will happen, sooner rather than later. Yes, FDR (who interned the Japanese) and Jack Kennedy (who treated women as disposable playthings) will take a little longer, because they are more tecent and both were Democrats. But it is coming.
"The disputes over America’s racial past and public symbols have proliferated with dizzying speed...But along the way, they have become to some an example of politically correct sentiments gone too far, with the potential to mobilize the right and alienate the center."
The one thing Republicans can always count on is for Democrats/Progressives to overreact and alienate the center. Always. From the false "hands up don't shoot" narrative to transgender issues in grade schools that helped bring us President Trump we now have the Democratic version of the Cultural Revolution, which might well help Republicans in 2018. Go ahead and remove a few Columbus statues and alienate the white ethnic groups that haven't yet left the Democratic Party.
Are there any adults in charge of the Democratic Party or is it just being run by the party/parties most aggrieved that day?
The one thing Republicans can always count on is for Democrats/Progressives to overreact and alienate the center. Always. From the false "hands up don't shoot" narrative to transgender issues in grade schools that helped bring us President Trump we now have the Democratic version of the Cultural Revolution, which might well help Republicans in 2018. Go ahead and remove a few Columbus statues and alienate the white ethnic groups that haven't yet left the Democratic Party.
Are there any adults in charge of the Democratic Party or is it just being run by the party/parties most aggrieved that day?
8
They are indulging Millennial's entitlement and preference for symbolic rage over, you know, getting out the vote. All it takes for evil to flourish, apparently, is to have a bunch of whiny kids as your opposition.
6
The (self-)righteous are making a mockery of their anti-racism by going beyond a few monuments honoring soldiers and statesmen who were actually traitors to the country, to monuments honoring officials with some deliberate (Rizzo) or inadvertent (Columbus) conduct affecting minorities. This failure to show sense and exercise restraint does nothing but distract attention and energy from serious issues, including the real racism of voter suppression and police brutality. The Left seems more interested in political cosmetics than purposeful reform. Its seems to suggestion that racism can be reduced by renaming Columbus, Ohio, and Columbus, Georgia.
5
I agree with resisting the expansion of the topic. Let's limit this to discussion of Crow-era statues glorifying a shameful rebellion. Will you support moves to remove these shameful celebrations?
1
I do not want to expand the topic, but I also do not want to unreasonably contract it. Limiting action to Jim Crow-era memorials does not rule out earlier and later memorials.
Leave it to the Left to start sledding down the slippery slope to the removal of all statutes of politically incorrect/imperfect American historical figures. There's no better way to turn the Center and Independents against Democratic candidates than to call for the symbolic annihilation of Euro-Centric American history. With Trump withering, leave it to the Left to never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Trump, I salute you. Clever.
12
Sanctimonious Millennial iconoclasts have plenty of time to spend on symbolic nonsense. If only they voted more regularly.
4
Lest we become tolerant of statues to "heroes" such as Robert E. Lee, we may want to succinctly review what the protests are about. Lee and his fellow generals were secessionists whose treason was first and foremost driven by the need to kill Union "patriots" in order to continue the horrific enslavement, torture, rape and murder of over "ten million" fellow human beings due to their skin color. One can only imagine the pain and suffering experienced by their descendants when viewing such depictions of such war criminals.
5
Here is the problem. Republicans are marketing specialists who understand the power and importance of symbolic gestures, while Democrats (like Andrew Young) are pragmatists who focus on real-world solutions intended to improve the day-to-day lives of citizens.
In such a conflict, symbolism wins, because humans do not live by bread alone, but also by spirit: by aspirational thought. Democrats are bread, Republicans are the Bible, and the Bible still still prevails in this country...especially where people are starving.
In such a conflict, symbolism wins, because humans do not live by bread alone, but also by spirit: by aspirational thought. Democrats are bread, Republicans are the Bible, and the Bible still still prevails in this country...especially where people are starving.
2
It appears that the Left is trying to create real Ministries of Truth--of Orwell's novel, 1984--trying to erase "inconvenient" history. How long until they try to erase the Bill of Rights, especially the hated 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 10th Amendments?
5
Evidence please. Are you saying that they want to remove all references from the history books? I don't think there is significant resistance from the majority of the left to removing Crow -era celebrations of rebellion to museums where they can be properly documented. Will you support this also?
1
Americans need to review our country's history. When the Articles of Confederation failed and a new Constitution was drafted in 1789, the Southern colonies only agreed to it after they reached the 3/5 compromise that counted slaves as 3/5 a person. When the Southern states seceded, they specifically based their new constitution on the idea that white people were the superior race (please review Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens' Cornerstone Speech) and when the South failed to secede, they put in place Jim Crow laws, a system that for decades discriminated agains Black Americans. So the idea these statues memorialize "Southern leaders" completely overlooks what exactly they were fighting for: the (over a century old) systematic oppression of our fellow Black and African Americans.
4
Politics kept FDR from rescuing Jews in Europe. He did nothing to stop the State Department from using delaying tactics to keep them out of the US. The Army Air Force bombed targets as close as 6 miles from Auschwitz but refused to bomb the crematoria at the camps.
This whole exercise only points out that no one in previous times can be judged by today's ethics. By the time this plays out there will be no statuary and monuments left in the country as fault can be found in everyone. The future will judge the president and find it wanting. Will they want to destroy our past as well?
This whole exercise only points out that no one in previous times can be judged by today's ethics. By the time this plays out there will be no statuary and monuments left in the country as fault can be found in everyone. The future will judge the president and find it wanting. Will they want to destroy our past as well?
7
The Left's ultimate goal is for Americans to hate America and be ashamed to be Americans
6
You start well, but then take a massive right turn. Is Germany suffering from the loss of its Nazi statuary? If so, please could you provide documentary evidence? Would you support the removal of statues to museums if we were only talking about grotesque Crow-era celebrations of a rebellion to continue a barbaric form of racist slavery?
2
Do you think Germany should have retained its Hitler statues? At the end of the day society can still come to a conclusion to reject the monuments to an outstandingly immoral system of the past. Not to destroy them, but to move them to museums. Is that not appropriate for Crow-era celebrations of a rebellion against the country for the purpose of maintaining an unprecedented system of racial slavery?
2
McCaskill nailed it: “Making what happened in Charlottesville about monuments is distracting,” We are so easily distracted, so easily emotionally manipulated.
There are so many more important issues to put our energy into. It would be far more productive to do the work of enacting state and local legislation to bring statues up for review every 30 years, and let local jurisdictions decide whether to keep or replace a statue. Getting into an outrage over statues that let's face it, very few of us even notice as we pass them is like pouring gas on the alt-right's fire. And it is a terrible misuse of our own energy.
There are so many more important issues to put our energy into. It would be far more productive to do the work of enacting state and local legislation to bring statues up for review every 30 years, and let local jurisdictions decide whether to keep or replace a statue. Getting into an outrage over statues that let's face it, very few of us even notice as we pass them is like pouring gas on the alt-right's fire. And it is a terrible misuse of our own energy.
5
McCaskill is a Democrat up for reelection in a state increasingly dominated by Repiblicans. That's not wisdom. It's self preservation
1
Like it or not, Confederate History is as much a part of American History as slavery! The greater majority of people living South of the Mason Dixon Line were not slave owners, just regular people, same as Northerners. The South should be allowed to pay homage to it's past.
I am a lifelong Democrat, but the party is falling apart. There are entirely too many factions, that are concerned only with their own grievances, and have no interest in the bigger picture. No Democrat wants to mention one of the major reasons Ms. Clinton lost 2016, low black voter turnout. Gimme, gimme, gimme, but do not expect me too vote, I do not have the time. Talk about special interest groups!
I do not think the Democratic Party can survive. The constant bombardment of groups being offended by what they perceive as offensive, is loosening more and more white voters everyday. People that actually come out to vote.
Just because Brannon is no longer in the West Wing, does not mean he is not still pulling strings.
Tom Franzson. Brevard NC
I am a lifelong Democrat, but the party is falling apart. There are entirely too many factions, that are concerned only with their own grievances, and have no interest in the bigger picture. No Democrat wants to mention one of the major reasons Ms. Clinton lost 2016, low black voter turnout. Gimme, gimme, gimme, but do not expect me too vote, I do not have the time. Talk about special interest groups!
I do not think the Democratic Party can survive. The constant bombardment of groups being offended by what they perceive as offensive, is loosening more and more white voters everyday. People that actually come out to vote.
Just because Brannon is no longer in the West Wing, does not mean he is not still pulling strings.
Tom Franzson. Brevard NC
25
You raise some useful points. Focusing too much on removal of symbols can be unhelpful. However, I don't have much sympathy for Civil War statues erected during the Jim Crow era. I can see a good case being made for shifting those off to museums.
With regard to Clinton and the black vote, you should not forget that she was not seen as being sympathetic to their issues. A quick search will quickly reveal that. There is no need to blame them for not being convinced by her.
With regard to Clinton and the black vote, you should not forget that she was not seen as being sympathetic to their issues. A quick search will quickly reveal that. There is no need to blame them for not being convinced by her.
2
"Like it or not, Confederate History is as much a part of American History as slavery! " I would be interested to know how many statues to slaves are there. Would you not agree that the statuary is particularly one-sided? Remembering history is not the same as celebrating it for one side at the expense of another, especially when it refers to a form of racist slavery that had few equals in history.
While I do not have any figures on the proportion of slave owners versus others, it is still an indisputable fact that secession of the southern States was mostly to do with maintaining slavery.
While I do not have any figures on the proportion of slave owners versus others, it is still an indisputable fact that secession of the southern States was mostly to do with maintaining slavery.
1
This has nothing to do with statues. This is the Democrats and media trying to undermine this presidency. Yes they're are a handful of white hate groups ( Democrat founded), but the vast majority of Trump supporters are middle and lower class hardworking Conservatives who are sick and tired of the way Democrats/Liberals have ruined our country.
28
Speaking only of the last Democratic president and only one of many accomplishments (despite unprecedented disrespect and disregard by Republicans for the president and the country): "ruin" means reviving the auto industry so that today it is back as one of the top producers in the world, while some Republicans petitioned for it to die a "natural" death? "Ruin" means a relatively quick economic recovery from a near economic collapse brought on by Republican "leadership"? Yes, "white hate groups" will cause blindness.
4
yeah it is a one way street, Msmurphy, and it's all on one group for the ruination of this country. If we only had one party rule to lead us into the promised land and restore glory to our great country. Oh wait, that would be a dictatorship and not American at all.
Are you suggesting that there was no opposition to these Crow-era statues before Trump? A quick search will quickly disprove that. If we set the Trump presidency aside for a moment, do you not agree that these Crow-era celebrations of a rebellion to try to maintain a racist system of slavery could easily be moved to a museum with no risk of that era ever being forgotten?
1
As long as we are going on a purity rampage might I suggest:
Naming Washington, D.C. for the bravest abolitionist of them all:
John Brown.
After all Frederick Douglass said:
"While I could live for the slave,
John Brown could die for him."
And do remember that Lincoln refused to allow African Americans to
officially fight for the Union side until January of 1863, and that the
Emancipation Proclamation did not Free a single Northern Slave.
I am sure that Purest of the Pure will soon find documentation
that Amerigo Vespucci led his talents toward the usurpation of
Native's land in what we now call the America's.
So the United States of America will have to go...
When it is made known that Native "Americans" had African-American
Slaves, and that Freed Slaves had Slaves and waged war on the
"Native Americans"...who will be pure and innocent enough
to demand the removal of all monuments, names of town, states,
and anything else that offends...
Naming Washington, D.C. for the bravest abolitionist of them all:
John Brown.
After all Frederick Douglass said:
"While I could live for the slave,
John Brown could die for him."
And do remember that Lincoln refused to allow African Americans to
officially fight for the Union side until January of 1863, and that the
Emancipation Proclamation did not Free a single Northern Slave.
I am sure that Purest of the Pure will soon find documentation
that Amerigo Vespucci led his talents toward the usurpation of
Native's land in what we now call the America's.
So the United States of America will have to go...
When it is made known that Native "Americans" had African-American
Slaves, and that Freed Slaves had Slaves and waged war on the
"Native Americans"...who will be pure and innocent enough
to demand the removal of all monuments, names of town, states,
and anything else that offends...
31
You're right. Let's get started! There is so much to do.
Hooey,
I am afraid every city, town, state, river and pond will
have to be given a numerical designation.
And after it is all done, what of the poor ?
I am afraid every city, town, state, river and pond will
have to be given a numerical designation.
And after it is all done, what of the poor ?
1
This country is consumed with a form of mass hysteria, a collective loss of common sense bordering on lunacy over these statues and honorariums.. Its a very frightening thing to witness, a seeming outgrowth of the insanity of our current political morass. I have never felt so untethered and so depressed about our American future.
37
I'm not disillusioned. I'm amused. Time will fix it.
It's reminiscent of the Khmer Rouge and other Marxists in demanding complete purity of thought. It is being used by conservatives to further divide America and distract from the actions of the Trump administration as it marches the US closer to authoritarianism. You are absolutely right to fear for our country.
reality to called to remind you that it is the LEFT that is demanding complete purity of thought. It is the Left that violently opposes all thought they disapprove of and wants to ban thought they find disagreeable
2
Any statue that represents a person who was treasonous to the legitimate government of the United States of America and was erected to memorialize that behavior should be removed. Any statue or memorialization for anything that the same persons did in support of the United States of America should remain as part of our history.
All the rest of the crooks, thieves, misogynists, slavery enablers, etc. memorialized by statues should remain as permanent examples of the distortions of USA history that our citizens most often refuse to acknowledge, with the appropriate statements of such on their statues.
All the rest of the crooks, thieves, misogynists, slavery enablers, etc. memorialized by statues should remain as permanent examples of the distortions of USA history that our citizens most often refuse to acknowledge, with the appropriate statements of such on their statues.
4
In my opinion it is a serious mistake to remove statues, etc. To remove symbols of what really happened will in the end show that "slavery never happend".
The very principle of removing history because it is unpopular this week is wrong. It reminds me of the regular change of newpaper stories in George Orwell's "1984".
The very principle of removing history because it is unpopular this week is wrong. It reminds me of the regular change of newpaper stories in George Orwell's "1984".
27
'To remove symbols of what really happened will in the end show that "slavery never happend".'
Do you have any evidence that the removal of Nazi monuments has led to anyone using their absence as an argument that Nazism did not exist?
In "1984" all the history books and newspapers were changed as well. Do you have any evidence that this is planned by any of the groups promoting the removal of the statues?
Do you have any evidence that the removal of Nazi monuments has led to anyone using their absence as an argument that Nazism did not exist?
In "1984" all the history books and newspapers were changed as well. Do you have any evidence that this is planned by any of the groups promoting the removal of the statues?
2
Perhaps the evidence, Andrew, is in the symbology used by ANTIFA and like-minded groups behind these efforts: the hammer and sickle.
As a resident of Hong Kong, it shouldn't take much effort to realize the government policies of forceful erasure of inconvenient history by communist movements in power.
As a resident of Hong Kong, it shouldn't take much effort to realize the government policies of forceful erasure of inconvenient history by communist movements in power.
1
This movement will surely backfire. If this is all that the left is offering the country, statue and monument removal and desecration, and also Hillary bashing Trump in her latest book, then the GOP will continue to win at the ballot box, in the midterms and then 2020.
Elections are won by the moderate independent voters, who are the king makers, and not the extremists on either side. You have to appeal to them in order to win, and this radical monument removal movement is not at all appealing to them.
Elections are won by the moderate independent voters, who are the king makers, and not the extremists on either side. You have to appeal to them in order to win, and this radical monument removal movement is not at all appealing to them.
22
Amen! They are tossing me right to Trump's arms.
3
American voters only have so much shelf space to accommodate these types of controversies. And, for the most part, it's not the ones that drove them to the polls last November. Nor will it be the ones that determine who gets elected in 2018 and 2020. I don't believe politicians have figured that out yet.
9
Show me a great person without flaws and I'll show you a myth.
16
@ML,
Obama.
Obama.
1
areader: Obama without flaws?
First, some definitions . . .
Prejudice. As in "pre-judge". To arrive at a conclusion or adopt a belief without knowledge of the facts.
Racism: Prejudice -- pre-judging -- based upon race.
When Obama heard of an incident involving a white policeman and a black college professor, he immediately, in a live televised news conference, condemned the white officer, denouncing his action as "stupid" -- without any knowledge of the facts.
He reached his conclusion based solely upon the race of the participants.
President Obama is, then, by his own words, a racist.
First, some definitions . . .
Prejudice. As in "pre-judge". To arrive at a conclusion or adopt a belief without knowledge of the facts.
Racism: Prejudice -- pre-judging -- based upon race.
When Obama heard of an incident involving a white policeman and a black college professor, he immediately, in a live televised news conference, condemned the white officer, denouncing his action as "stupid" -- without any knowledge of the facts.
He reached his conclusion based solely upon the race of the participants.
President Obama is, then, by his own words, a racist.
2
Removing statues is akin to handing out condoms. It ignores the needed changes each human must make if we are to have long term positive change.
Removing statues does nothing to change laws, public policy that will make our country fair and balanced and more humane. It's a distraction!
Removing statues does nothing to change laws, public policy that will make our country fair and balanced and more humane. It's a distraction!
11
This absolutely is a trap for the Democrats. What a gift to the administration and its supporters! The truly noxious ones can point to the president's slippery slope comments (today it's Lee, tomorrow it's Washington, etc.) and say "see! It's happening already!" Those (far more numerous) who aren't white supremacists but just want to side with their Republican tribe now can conveniently begin to forget what Charlottesville was really about - ugly, violent, hateful racism - and focus on the statues. Democrats: This. Is. Not. How. To. Win. Elections.
Why does a minority of those who oppose the Republican domination of our country keep insisting on playing straight into the hands of Fox, Breitbart, Stormer, Trump etc.? Please respect the rest of us who mostly share your views, but want to win elections. You aren't helping. You can still protest after we un-elect the current pack of fools. Promise.
Andrew Young said it exactly right. I wish he'd run for president.
As for the statues, it's simple. Let each community decide which ones to erect, keep or remove. A Michigander should no more tell Alabama or Pennsylvania whom to commemorate, than a bunch of out of white supremacists should use a statue as an excuse to bring mayhem to Virginia. Personally, I'm happy to say "no monuments to people who took up arms against the USA" and leave it at that - which is what I'll say if it ever becomes an issue in my own town.
Why does a minority of those who oppose the Republican domination of our country keep insisting on playing straight into the hands of Fox, Breitbart, Stormer, Trump etc.? Please respect the rest of us who mostly share your views, but want to win elections. You aren't helping. You can still protest after we un-elect the current pack of fools. Promise.
Andrew Young said it exactly right. I wish he'd run for president.
As for the statues, it's simple. Let each community decide which ones to erect, keep or remove. A Michigander should no more tell Alabama or Pennsylvania whom to commemorate, than a bunch of out of white supremacists should use a statue as an excuse to bring mayhem to Virginia. Personally, I'm happy to say "no monuments to people who took up arms against the USA" and leave it at that - which is what I'll say if it ever becomes an issue in my own town.
11
It's really quite simple: "no enemies to the left". Until the Democrats are willing to speak truth to power and cleanse themselves of the communists/socialists among them nothing will change for Democrats.
this inane debate over statues,for goodness sake,will
assure the re-election of Donald Trump for a second
disastrous term.
as an American of Italian ancestry,I am offended by a
strong part of my heritage being taken away.
Columbus was a flawed man,but a great explorer as
well. we must stop judging great historical figures by
our contemporary standards.NO ONE would pass that
test. I have been a Democrat my entire life,but if that
party continues to ally itself to these useless endeavors,
I will consider sitting on my hands on future election
days.
I will never vote Republican, but my vote cannot go to
a party bent on it's own self destruction.
assure the re-election of Donald Trump for a second
disastrous term.
as an American of Italian ancestry,I am offended by a
strong part of my heritage being taken away.
Columbus was a flawed man,but a great explorer as
well. we must stop judging great historical figures by
our contemporary standards.NO ONE would pass that
test. I have been a Democrat my entire life,but if that
party continues to ally itself to these useless endeavors,
I will consider sitting on my hands on future election
days.
I will never vote Republican, but my vote cannot go to
a party bent on it's own self destruction.
8
The Confederate statues are one thing but the line has to be drawn at Christopher Columbus. MMV our City Council Head you need to think before you do. First it was her post on her venerial disease and now this. You are not helping the Mayors bid for another term.
3
This is simply a wedge issue pushed by the Democrats, at their own great peril. The country is yearning to be brought together around solutions to our problems: jobs, crime, immigration, infrastructure, and national security. But quite astoundingly, the Democrats remain focused on stoking the fires of fear, anger, division, and anarchy. The Russian thing kind of petered out, so bring on the battle of the statues.
16
I appears you've fallen through the rabbit hole. In what universe are Democrats the party of division and not Trump and his us vs. them acolytes? Perhaps your world exists only in Phoenix.
1
This battle of political correctness is self-defeating, as was the battle of the far left against Hillary long after Bernie lost the primary by a considerable margin last July.
The bright line argument for removal of Confederate statues from public places is morally unambiguous: Confederate leaders fought for the continued enslavement of people who were brought to our shores involuntarily to live out lives of sheer misery and degradation. At the very least, all fair-minded whites should support the removal of these statues, if only in solidarity with the majority of African-Americans who quite understandably find them deeply offensive.
But the hopelessly murky and morally ambiguous battle now being waged for removal of other types of statues or tributes to figures whose values or actions we now disapprove of for a myriad reasons is taking it way too far. This slippery slope of a battle has the potential to not only divide Democrats, whose greater number of moderate voices are being drowned out once again by more extreme factions within the party, but also could prevent it from gaining a majority in either house of Congress in 2018.
I urge the millennials, the Bernie-or-bust crowd and all members of the more extreme factions of the Democrat party to stop this nonsense right now. The well-being of our country and planet is at stake. We cannot afford seven and a half more years of this Republican trifecta or it will take a generation or more to recover from it.
The bright line argument for removal of Confederate statues from public places is morally unambiguous: Confederate leaders fought for the continued enslavement of people who were brought to our shores involuntarily to live out lives of sheer misery and degradation. At the very least, all fair-minded whites should support the removal of these statues, if only in solidarity with the majority of African-Americans who quite understandably find them deeply offensive.
But the hopelessly murky and morally ambiguous battle now being waged for removal of other types of statues or tributes to figures whose values or actions we now disapprove of for a myriad reasons is taking it way too far. This slippery slope of a battle has the potential to not only divide Democrats, whose greater number of moderate voices are being drowned out once again by more extreme factions within the party, but also could prevent it from gaining a majority in either house of Congress in 2018.
I urge the millennials, the Bernie-or-bust crowd and all members of the more extreme factions of the Democrat party to stop this nonsense right now. The well-being of our country and planet is at stake. We cannot afford seven and a half more years of this Republican trifecta or it will take a generation or more to recover from it.
12
If pop culture glorifies mob rule while tacitly supporting selective law enforcement, the inevitable conflict promulgated will be catastrophic. It's interesting how many of these anti fa, and anti capitalist, anti American history protestors are embracing tactics reminiscent of the Communists, who became the greatest mass murderers in history, all for the greater good. We preserve and study history to learn about ourselves. What do you think destroying it will do?
21
This is the logical extension of the notions of "safe spaces" and "microaggressions."
The sooner we put an end to this infantile notion that we should all be safe from offense or that any offense we create in our mind demands the perceived offender to be "corrected," the sooner we'll return to sanity.
The sooner we put an end to this infantile notion that we should all be safe from offense or that any offense we create in our mind demands the perceived offender to be "corrected," the sooner we'll return to sanity.
25
This is highly emotional issue is based more on symbolism than on substance as Andrew Young has correctly pointed out. The average working class American black and white don't give a damn about these statues. Removing symbols of oppression may make the cultural elite feel better that past injustices have been rectified but it doesn't make the current injustices faced by minorities in this country go away. There won't be any Hollywood ending. This is a distraction and once again the Democrats fell for it. If the activists want the statues removed then they should have it settled in the courts or by the ballot box as our founding fathers have intended and not on the streets. Sadly, this witch hunt makes Trump look like the voice of reason in the eyes of middle America.
14
"This is a distraction and once again the Democrats fell for it." It's a "distraction" that Democrats themselves introduced, embraced, and continue to fuel. Simply because the "other side," which does not consist solely of Republicans, has not fallen lockstep in agreement behind the infantile idea that hiding something makes it go away, is not a reason to project ones own failings onto them. Senator McCaskill's diversionary comment notwithstanding, Democrats own this one lock, stock, and barrel. They have no one to thank but themselves for "making Trump look like the voice of reason in the eyes of middle America." Like it not, on this this, he is.
1
The battle is on:
"Orpheum theater in Memphis won’t show ‘Gone With the Wind,’ calling film ‘insensitive’."
http://wreg.com/2017/08/25/orpheum-theater-wont-show-gone-with-the-wind-...
"Orpheum theater in Memphis won’t show ‘Gone With the Wind,’ calling film ‘insensitive’."
http://wreg.com/2017/08/25/orpheum-theater-wont-show-gone-with-the-wind-...
2
Trump's handlers (Robert Mercer, Roger Stone) love focusing on this instead of criminal investigations, a government shut down over a wall Mexico is supposed to pay for, 75 minute unhinged diatribes, racist comments, manufactured nuclear confrontations with North Koreas....you get the point. Keep your eye on the ball, people. We are facing an existential threat.
I wouldn't be surprised if Robert Mercer's fake news bots or Russian bots are manufacturing a lot of this supposed controversy. Don't fall for it. Statues of traitors like confederates is one thing, but forget the rest, at least for now. Please.
I wouldn't be surprised if Robert Mercer's fake news bots or Russian bots are manufacturing a lot of this supposed controversy. Don't fall for it. Statues of traitors like confederates is one thing, but forget the rest, at least for now. Please.
5
Lunacy mixed with incitement, provocation, lefty liberalism at its worst, and plain ol' desperation by the still-refusing to concede, fading Democratic Party. Oh, well. Next 50 years of one-party rule almost a certainty. And Maga, most definitely. The statues? Let 'em be. Heck, build more with Shumer, Blasio etc. on horses too. They too, like all the rest, are of an age long gone by.
8
Here's the $64,000 Question: WHY NOW?? If all these people are so "offended", why didn't they complain 10, 20, 30 years ago?
These laughable protests have happened out of the blue, too fast, too hard. In short, it seems as if it has been organized to create chaos and disruption.
I call NS on this whole "offended" garbage
These laughable protests have happened out of the blue, too fast, too hard. In short, it seems as if it has been organized to create chaos and disruption.
I call NS on this whole "offended" garbage
15
Mass hysteria. This makes no sense.
12
I'm shocked at the overwhelming number of commenters who see no harm in Confederate monuments. These honor traitors to the United States and were erected specifically to reinforce white power, and as such they have no place in our union. As for the slippery slope, it's not really that slippery. Monuments to traitors should go. Symbols are not insignificant, especially in a nation like ours held together by ideals. Yes, there are other things to worry about, but we can hold more than one idea in our heads at a time. Democrats with a backbone will have a much better chance of defeating Trumpism than the pre-Charlottesville timidity that has characterized the party for years.
2
John B, where do you see overwhelming number of commenters seeing no harm in Confederate monuments? Where? Most people here are referring to other statues and most have stated that Confederate statues need to go.
ok john, you decide for all of us. exactly who is on the "traitors" list, dear leader?
2
The context for each individual statue should be considered.
Truth be told, there are few true, 100% "heroes" in American history. You're almost always going to find a flaw or some upsetting statement/belief/action.
I worry that in the rush to topple statues, many historical landmarks, which give a sense of place and time, will be uprooted without due research and civic debate.
No doubt we will get plenty of plop art in the statues' stead. It will be perfectly safe -- not representing anything.
Truth be told, there are few true, 100% "heroes" in American history. You're almost always going to find a flaw or some upsetting statement/belief/action.
I worry that in the rush to topple statues, many historical landmarks, which give a sense of place and time, will be uprooted without due research and civic debate.
No doubt we will get plenty of plop art in the statues' stead. It will be perfectly safe -- not representing anything.
4
Isn't it odd that the political right reliably opposes positions that are supported by the majority of Americans such as gun control and women's reproductive rights and they win elections and the political left supports positions that are also supported by the majority of Americans like justice for minorities, worker's rights and universal healthcare but they lose elections?
Perhaps democrats would benefit by studying the techniques of the right.
Perhaps democrats would benefit by studying the techniques of the right.
1
Perfect example why I'll never vote for the Dems. They just cater to the nonsensical.
11
I'm a liberal and I don't agree with tearing monuments down due to the enshrined's affiliation with the Civil War or slavery. That said, I do believe that each municipality has the right to do so. My concern isn't the preservation of history. Rather, Americans living in the 21st century need to recognize that the 19th century was a very different America; one created by our Founding Fathers, many of whom owned slaves. Our Constitution was the result of a very dirty bargain. The Declaration of Independence declared that all men are created equal. In order to create our Constitution, those words were omitted from our Constitution. Four of our first five presidents were slave owners. Are we now going to going to strip them of the honor they deserve for creating this country? I hope not. President Lincoln had no intention whatsoever of punishing the South once the Civil War was won. And yet, here we are, 152 years later, punishing the South. If you know history, you know the South paid a very heavy toll for their rebellion. Let it rest.
10
This week it's monuments, last week it was Black Lives Matter, the week before Occupy Whatever, and next week...? The Left doesn't lack for energy. Tangible results is another matter entirely.
12
The far Left has really lost its collective mind. Its brand of hysteria now rivals if not exceeds that of the far Right in the 1950s, though the liberal press is too blinded by its own arrogance to see it. I always remind my university students of this apt comparison nonetheless and as they are students in East Asia they readily see the similarities unlike most of their American peers, who drink the Kool-Aid.
I am reminded, more than wistfully, of how liberals used to embrace Orwell's dystopian novel, 1984, seldom realizing that Orwell wasn't inspired to write it because of what fascism had wrought in Europe but because of the looming and sinister influences of communism. But today's Left concentrates its ire only on totalitarian tendencies from the Right, hence their obsession with anything that smacks of fascism. Never mind that identity politics is fascist in its underpinnings as well.
I fear in the end we will all come to love Big Brother, and the only statues still standing will be to this politically correct entity.
I am reminded, more than wistfully, of how liberals used to embrace Orwell's dystopian novel, 1984, seldom realizing that Orwell wasn't inspired to write it because of what fascism had wrought in Europe but because of the looming and sinister influences of communism. But today's Left concentrates its ire only on totalitarian tendencies from the Right, hence their obsession with anything that smacks of fascism. Never mind that identity politics is fascist in its underpinnings as well.
I fear in the end we will all come to love Big Brother, and the only statues still standing will be to this politically correct entity.
12
Democrats have 10 senate seats up for reelection in states with strong Republican support.
Donnelly in Indiana
McCaskill in Missouri
Tester in Montana
Heitkamp North Dakota
Brown in Ohio
Who believes that these good people will vote to empower monument removals?
Democrats better find a way to move on fast.
Donnelly in Indiana
McCaskill in Missouri
Tester in Montana
Heitkamp North Dakota
Brown in Ohio
Who believes that these good people will vote to empower monument removals?
Democrats better find a way to move on fast.
6
"Of course, many people argue that what’s important is doing what’s right, not necessarily which side wins politically." Doing what's right is, indeed, the slippery slope and, therefore, both sides will continue to make political hay of this issue. We just can't seem to help ourselves; so preoccupied with rearranging the deck chairs.
2
And now this issue is being exported!
Last night in Sydney, a city I have spent a lot of time in, statues of Captain James Cook and Captain Arthur Phillip, Governor Macquarie etc. were attacked with graffiti, and the very left leaning local council is having discussions on removing offending statues.
Where does it all end?
Last night in Sydney, a city I have spent a lot of time in, statues of Captain James Cook and Captain Arthur Phillip, Governor Macquarie etc. were attacked with graffiti, and the very left leaning local council is having discussions on removing offending statues.
Where does it all end?
2
Time to change Columbus Day to Native American Remembrance Day.
5
Now Christopher Columbus…
And don't you remember Henry Clay Frick had the National Guard fire at factory workers in the vicinity of Pittsburgh? And don't you remember virtually anyone's ancestor used to be a wild anthropophageous beast?
Christopher Columbus was probably far from being a "perfect person". Anyway his quest changed the course of the world, the good and the bad.
Symbols aren't essentially positive, or negative. They're testimonies of the Past; just there to make you think.
It seems it's something Americans do not do anymore these days.
And don't you remember Henry Clay Frick had the National Guard fire at factory workers in the vicinity of Pittsburgh? And don't you remember virtually anyone's ancestor used to be a wild anthropophageous beast?
Christopher Columbus was probably far from being a "perfect person". Anyway his quest changed the course of the world, the good and the bad.
Symbols aren't essentially positive, or negative. They're testimonies of the Past; just there to make you think.
It seems it's something Americans do not do anymore these days.
7
Follow the funding. Mass protests usually have a money trail. This is staged. BTW, they have a Jefferson Davis Middle School in Florida (and it's a majority of black kids). Now that is just wrong, they need to change that, please!
1
It's easy to pull down a statue - a single object which can be replaced by another object - or an open space, such as a "Diversity Park" - where people are encouraged to contemplate social healing --
But what happens when there's a cry from those who "feel" offended when the Metropolitan Opera performs the music of Richard Wagner - who espoused the idea of a German "superman" and whose anti-semitic views were embraced by Hitler -- ?
Will the Met Opera be on the receiving end of a social media campaign of shame and derision ? -- Will oeioke threten to cancel their subscriptions to he Met if they continue to perform the works of Wagner - ?
Will PBS continue to broadcast taped performances of those operas -- ?
And - while we're at it --
Johann Sebastian Bach (1685 - 1750) - was - like any good Lutheran of his day - under the accepted belief that the Jews were responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus --
Will offended liberal Jews now demand the removal of Bach from the American musical lexicon because they might find his 300-year-old views to be offensive -- ?
Oh - that will never happen ! you say --
Okay - fine -- just wait...
But what happens when there's a cry from those who "feel" offended when the Metropolitan Opera performs the music of Richard Wagner - who espoused the idea of a German "superman" and whose anti-semitic views were embraced by Hitler -- ?
Will the Met Opera be on the receiving end of a social media campaign of shame and derision ? -- Will oeioke threten to cancel their subscriptions to he Met if they continue to perform the works of Wagner - ?
Will PBS continue to broadcast taped performances of those operas -- ?
And - while we're at it --
Johann Sebastian Bach (1685 - 1750) - was - like any good Lutheran of his day - under the accepted belief that the Jews were responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus --
Will offended liberal Jews now demand the removal of Bach from the American musical lexicon because they might find his 300-year-old views to be offensive -- ?
Oh - that will never happen ! you say --
Okay - fine -- just wait...
13
Just imagine when the leftists in Italy hear about the great successes of the left in the US. Who will be the first to destroy all of the statues, monuments, busts etc. of all of the Roman rulers, leaders kings etc. The coliseum, slaves there, tear it down. Soon there will be no history In Italy then they can start on France, then Great Briton. Ah what a wonderful world the progressives will leave us with.
10
It's all about the economy, dummies !!!
1
I sure hope these people don't want to use all the racist money. You know, the $1, $10, $20, $50, and $100 bills all have racists, slave owners, or people that knew slave owners or racists on their face. If it would make them feel better, they can send all of those bills to me and I will take care of 'getting rid' of them.
11
Hi NYT Readers:
Just checking in for a reminder of why Donald Trump was elected.
Yes I see after having lost 900+ state legislature seats, 13 governorships, 69 House seats, 13 Senate seats, 1 Presidency &
1 SCOTUS Justice, the sanctimonious liberal left remains as morally superiority - and always so quick to proclaim when absent a cogent argument - as ever. No doubt the subjective, anti-realist pov of the highly educated postmodern relativists justify the rewriting of history.
While the leftist's Red Guard is using violence and destruction to demonstrate the great harm done society by 100+ year old statues, the new conservative administration is busy undoing the actual harms done by Obama's "pen and phone." Good times.
All the Best
Deplorable, Irredeemable, Racist, Bigot, Sexist, Homophobe, Xenophobe MAGA Supporter
Just checking in for a reminder of why Donald Trump was elected.
Yes I see after having lost 900+ state legislature seats, 13 governorships, 69 House seats, 13 Senate seats, 1 Presidency &
1 SCOTUS Justice, the sanctimonious liberal left remains as morally superiority - and always so quick to proclaim when absent a cogent argument - as ever. No doubt the subjective, anti-realist pov of the highly educated postmodern relativists justify the rewriting of history.
While the leftist's Red Guard is using violence and destruction to demonstrate the great harm done society by 100+ year old statues, the new conservative administration is busy undoing the actual harms done by Obama's "pen and phone." Good times.
All the Best
Deplorable, Irredeemable, Racist, Bigot, Sexist, Homophobe, Xenophobe MAGA Supporter
9
Remove FDR because he signed the order to intern the Japanese because they were Japanese. What a racist.
7
When discrimination is history, then the statues can stay up. I for one am glad that we have the opportunity to question America's triumphalist history. Why should we be slaves to ignorance? If we learn that we shouldn't honor certain individuals for their opinion of blacks as inferior, then so be it. I am ready for the future.
Let's please heed Bannon's warning: "The Democrats,” he said, “the longer they talk about identity politics, I got ’em. I want them to talk about racism every day. If the left is focused on race and identity, and we go with economic nationalism, we can crush the Democrats"
20
This is a rabbit hole which the left cannot allow themselves to be lured down. While some statues are undoubtedly offensive, we have far more significant battles to fight right now. There is an actual oppressor in the White House who thrives on diversions like these. We must keep our eyes on the prize of removing him and his cohorts in Congress before they do any further damage.
5
I can think of several culture war issues in 2016 that led to Trump's victory. If the faux outrage crowd did it before, they can do it again. Focus on core issues like jobs, poverty, education, and evidence-based solutions to our problems.
8
It's not about monuments. It's about an adolescent country's refusal to come to terms with the grief and grievances of a hauntingly cruel past. All that's required is a momentary pause from entertainment to recognize this. People of reason have not just lost crucial ground. This is a landslide. Stoking racial division does not come from a Nazi playbook. It's us. This is how we roll folks. We will just have to cope with the ghosts we have become. To all people who believe that they are White reading this page, no matter what side you're on, what oh what are we acquiescing to, what is the cost, and if not now, then when?
2
Removing confederate generals from their pedestals is one thing. They were slave owners, traitors, and typically oligarchs with little to redeem them but questionable stories about their "chivalry" and tales of their secret hate of slavery. And sure, if people don't like other monuments, take them down.
But searching a city high and low for "symbols of hate" to remove is an entirely different kettle of fish. That IS a politically correct witch hunt.
And removing markers that say "Lee planted a tree here" or "we had a parade for a Nazi collaborator" IS actually an attempt to erase the past.
Funny how DeBlasio (and a good number of other Democrats) can take a winning issue and push it so hard that it becomes a losing one. Not smart.
But searching a city high and low for "symbols of hate" to remove is an entirely different kettle of fish. That IS a politically correct witch hunt.
And removing markers that say "Lee planted a tree here" or "we had a parade for a Nazi collaborator" IS actually an attempt to erase the past.
Funny how DeBlasio (and a good number of other Democrats) can take a winning issue and push it so hard that it becomes a losing one. Not smart.
16
I have a giant "L" pn my forehead according to my kid - for Leftist, not loser. I think that taking down monuments is a huge mistake. If anything, we should make an effort to put up more monuments -- ones that tell the stories of cultures others than the dominant one (or ones) that seem to decide what is worth recalling by public memorial/art.
Inclusion is far more important than division -- in the hundreds of years that the US has existed as a nation, the hundreds more years that Europeans have had a presence in North America, and the many thousands of years that human beings have populated this continent, there have been a tremendous number of people and events worth memorializing. There is good reason to remember the people and cultures that create the present, and the future that we anticipate, whether we agree with their principles, or not. We learn from those with whom we disagree perhaps even more than from those with whom we agree.
Inclusion is far more important than division -- in the hundreds of years that the US has existed as a nation, the hundreds more years that Europeans have had a presence in North America, and the many thousands of years that human beings have populated this continent, there have been a tremendous number of people and events worth memorializing. There is good reason to remember the people and cultures that create the present, and the future that we anticipate, whether we agree with their principles, or not. We learn from those with whom we disagree perhaps even more than from those with whom we agree.
11
The lower classes are being set against each other in order to neutralize their bargaining position. What's more important, a bunch of statues or the country's outrageous wealth inequality? What bigger threat is there to their long term survival then the coming waves of automation and scare work? There are gigantic problems staring everyone in the face yet nothing is apparently being done about them.
11
Don't forget Mayor De Blasio suggesting he'd consider getting rid of Grant's Tomb over Ulysses S. Grant's supposed anti-Semitism, Al Sharpton calling for no funding for the Jefferson Memorial, and the desecration of POWs' grave markers in Madison and Boston.
We've already seen democrat Andrew Jackson taken off the currency (instead of plutocrat Alexander Hamilton due to the absurd retconning of Hamilton as a Person of Color).
Washington is upcoming, along with FDR (redlining!).
We've already seen democrat Andrew Jackson taken off the currency (instead of plutocrat Alexander Hamilton due to the absurd retconning of Hamilton as a Person of Color).
Washington is upcoming, along with FDR (redlining!).
17
Just cover the monuments of the confederency up with a cover. When someone wants to see it for heritage/history then uncover it. Or take them to a non public place.
1
While I certainly understand the reasoning behind the sentiment spearheading the charge to remove the Robert E. Lee statue in Charlottesville, I have to agree with the many voices conveyed in this article. As a descendant of men who fought in the Revolutionary War and the Civil War, NY Infantry, I believe that removing statues that represent American history should be carefully weighed. I say this with the Gettysburg National Park in mind. As one tours the historical Park there are statues representing each state both Union and Confederate. Removing Confederate statues from Gettysburg would remove half of the story.
It is the battle flag of the Confederacy flown from pickups and houses in NYS that I would like to see removed permanently. However, it is the mentality behind those who fly that flag which is the biggest disappointment.
It is the mentality of hate that will simmer, with or without a statue, that concerns me most.
It is the battle flag of the Confederacy flown from pickups and houses in NYS that I would like to see removed permanently. However, it is the mentality behind those who fly that flag which is the biggest disappointment.
It is the mentality of hate that will simmer, with or without a statue, that concerns me most.
5
A trap, indeed. Confederate War memorials celebrate a culture of slavery, which must be condemned but not forgotten. Some other slave owners were ambivalent (Jefferson tried for a constitutional compromise that would have ended it in 1800) and lived in their times. Keep all the slavery information in our history books, but do not celebrate it. A balanced view of Columbus, et.al. in our history books is also necessary.
Do not forget history, try to learn to be better because of it.
Do not forget history, try to learn to be better because of it.
20
As a gay woman, I am offended by the statues of Martin Luther King, whose anti-gay activism is well known. Please take down or cover those statues too.
6
Interesting. New Orleans recently removed statues of Robert E. Lee, P.G,T Beauregard and Jefferson Davis because honoring The Confederacy is now deemed to be wrong. Andrew Jackson was responsible for "the trail of tears" which was one of the greatest acts of genocide in American history. Is it hypocrisy not to remove his statue in New Orleans and rename Jackson Square?
5
"Discretion is the better part of valor."
Those on the left (and I am one) need to pick their battles better. Stop screaming about every slight injustice, especially those on purely symbolic issues like statues. As the author says, you're playing right into Trump's hands. Guess what - the people we build statues of weren't angels, they were humans with flaws. Doesn't mean the statute has to come down.
Those on the left (and I am one) need to pick their battles better. Stop screaming about every slight injustice, especially those on purely symbolic issues like statues. As the author says, you're playing right into Trump's hands. Guess what - the people we build statues of weren't angels, they were humans with flaws. Doesn't mean the statute has to come down.
12
When Sherman marched thru Georgia and SC, one stated purpose was to break the South's back. He now too sits on a bronze horse at Grand Army Plaza in NYC. Yes, bring Lee here or take Sherman there (to Charlottesville), or alternate every 50 years or so, if the Union still survives. Or, take them both down, if we must. But, let's be clear, the fact is that African-American fellow citizens were the victims then, and for many years that followed. And, to think that pure will can always erase or fix such injustice, is blind to reality. Or, to pretend that all is right now for everyone all the time and we no longer need the Voting Rights Act, is just pure "Whistling Dixie."
7
First, let us recognize the diabolical forces that gain from this stupidity. Politicians on the left and right certainly benefit from engaged/enraged supporters. Emotions provide far more action than reason, right? And, as always, the media collaborates, either actively or passively, even while trying to seem righteous (looking at you, NYT).
Now the rest of us. Did anyone care about statues a year ago? And what motivates all the hysteria now? At least some blame, as others have suggested, comes from politcal correctness run amuck. Or perhaps it now deserves recognition as a new phenomenon: Ethics Cleansing?
Grow up, people. In anything like a free society, you will be offended. I remember shuddering when I heard Florence Shapiro, then mayor of Plano, TX (certainly conservative then, and probably Trump country now), talk about her vision for the city, including making a place where nobody would be offended--nobody conservative, I would wager. This tunnel vision works both ways, and if we accept "offense" as a political criteria, we are all doomed.
Now the rest of us. Did anyone care about statues a year ago? And what motivates all the hysteria now? At least some blame, as others have suggested, comes from politcal correctness run amuck. Or perhaps it now deserves recognition as a new phenomenon: Ethics Cleansing?
Grow up, people. In anything like a free society, you will be offended. I remember shuddering when I heard Florence Shapiro, then mayor of Plano, TX (certainly conservative then, and probably Trump country now), talk about her vision for the city, including making a place where nobody would be offended--nobody conservative, I would wager. This tunnel vision works both ways, and if we accept "offense" as a political criteria, we are all doomed.
15
I think this is a local community issue. Each jurisdiction should decide legally what to do about their own monuments and statues. Charlottesville city council had voted to remove the statue. Apparently they did not move fast enough. Nor were they prepared to deal with an influx of people from outside of their community. Since DT has a track record of making outlandish ridiculous statements without thinking no one was able to take his statements about Charlottesville seriously and give him the benefit of the doubt.
People like Rizzo and Columbus were not traitors to the United States. Jefferson Davis was.
Simple.
Simple.
6
Not so simple. Columbus was a genocidal monster whose gold-mad followers tortured and murdered with abandon. The horrors they inflicted on the Arawak, along with the diseases they brought, wiped out the native peoples on Hispaniola. If you approve a statue to him, you should approve of one to any beast with blood drenched hands.
Confederate Generals existed at a time when substantial discourse and abolition of slavery was actively occurring. The sin of their time was not in advocating slavery, but in doing so when they should have known better.
9
I don't see why a plaque on a short column at the site of a battle isn't enough to "remember" the Civil War. Name the regiments involved, their leaders, when the battle took place, how many men were lost.
With roads, bridges and the entire US infrastructure crumbling, the exodus of the working class from the democratic party and an antiquated tax system with a preponderance of hardship on the middle-class, democrats find the monument issue as their quest to reclaim the White House. As a side note, in Illinois Lincoln's bust was vandalized as someone took offense to his historical legacy. During the Obama presidency the confederate statues were a non issue. But once Trump was inaugurated all the ultra hyper sensitivities are exposed. There is not a monument that has some negative historical fact attached to it. Our history, albeit a unique and prideful one, has some dark moments; destruction of Native Americans; Slavery; war amongst the states; secret experimentation upon unsuspecting blacks. We as a nation have come to a chasm of extremes; threatening our fabric as we spiral toward and culture-social civil war. History is not sanitary and there are moments that offend some and hurt others; but should we blot out historical events and people who were of those times. Our sensibilities and mental acuity are under assault; we can not have a nation that is too partisan and too sensitive; our nation must embrace our past and understand events that have lead us to our present state: Insanity!! Monuments should serve us as reminders who we were and how far we have come!
18
We have again clouded the argument on right and wrong by becoming offended.
Stay focused on the issue at hand; controlling an inept President and correcting current social issues. By engaging in battles with hundred year old hunks of bronze you are playing right into the idea that liberals are out of touch.
Stay focused on the issue at hand; controlling an inept President and correcting current social issues. By engaging in battles with hundred year old hunks of bronze you are playing right into the idea that liberals are out of touch.
3
It was disheartening to see yet another NYT writer along with the Times editorial board continue the gratuitous assault on General Robert E. Lee. George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were great men. They deserve our veneration. But both were slaveholders and as President neither would not or could not begin the long march to ending slavery in the US. There isn't enough space to go into General Lee's career, who has had the misfortune to have his cause taken up by American Nazis, White Supremacists and the KKK. so I will content myself with two quotes from the General and remind those who read this that a West Point barracks is named after him.
"So far from engaging in a war to perpetuate slavery, I am rejoiced that Slavery is abolished. I believe it will be greatly for the interest of the South. So fully am I satisfied of this that I would have cheerfully lost all that I have lost by the war, and have suffered all that I have suffered to have this object attained."
Robert E. Lee
"There is a terrible war coming, and these young men who have never seen war cannot wait for it to happen, but I tell you, I wish that I owned every slave in the South, for I would free them all to avoid this war."
Robert E. Lee
There were no sides of the angels prior to the Civil War, during the Civil War, during the genocide of Native Americans, the abuse of women, children and workers in general in the sweat shops of the North as well as the Robber Barons of American industry and so on.
"So far from engaging in a war to perpetuate slavery, I am rejoiced that Slavery is abolished. I believe it will be greatly for the interest of the South. So fully am I satisfied of this that I would have cheerfully lost all that I have lost by the war, and have suffered all that I have suffered to have this object attained."
Robert E. Lee
"There is a terrible war coming, and these young men who have never seen war cannot wait for it to happen, but I tell you, I wish that I owned every slave in the South, for I would free them all to avoid this war."
Robert E. Lee
There were no sides of the angels prior to the Civil War, during the Civil War, during the genocide of Native Americans, the abuse of women, children and workers in general in the sweat shops of the North as well as the Robber Barons of American industry and so on.
18
Are progressives ready to destroy their own heroes in the name of eradicating racism? What about FDR who sent Japanese citizens to internment camps during World War II? What about the great Senate Leader Robert Byrd who was a Grand Kleagle in the Ku Klux Klan? And Teddy Roosevelt who trumpeted the grand destiny of Anglo-Saxon America? Where does this all end?
18
Mr. Gabriel neglects to mention what one might object to in the Maryland state song (adopted 1939). In one verse, it calls for the assassination of Abraham Lincoln, in another, it gives an appreciative backwards nod to John Wilkes Booth. You'd think Republicans would be the first ones to want it changed.
1
No one is perfect. I'd like to tear down and destroy all memorials and artwork depicting men who abused, abased, diminished or held back women solely based on their gender. But, oh dear, that would leave us with very few men among the statuary, paintings, murals and placards that fill our public squares, government buildings and museums! Teddy Roosevelt loved slaughtering wildlife, and was photographed posing with his gun and an enormous, gorgeous, very dead rhino that he shot. That's appalling, and offends me deeply. Let's get rid of him, too. FDR was not very kind to Eleanor, cheating on her the way he did. What a sinner! Clinton? Yep. Kennedy? Him, too. Martin Luther King? According to many accounts, yes. Out they go. And on, and on.
In San Francisco, a statue has been targeted by the left because it shows a Jesuit priest and a cowboy standing over a Native American man, who appears to have fallen back -- in surprise, or submission -- into a near-supine position. The priest is holding up a finger, perhaps in admonishment, perhaps pointing to toward Heaven. It's a blatantly colonialist view of California history, but it's a relic of its time. It can be viewed through the filter of a more modern sensibility. Should it come down? On the news story I saw on this issue, a black man spoke adamantly in favor of removing the thing because he saw it as racist. Another man of mixed, mostly Latino heritage, said that he was part Native American and it did not bother him.
In San Francisco, a statue has been targeted by the left because it shows a Jesuit priest and a cowboy standing over a Native American man, who appears to have fallen back -- in surprise, or submission -- into a near-supine position. The priest is holding up a finger, perhaps in admonishment, perhaps pointing to toward Heaven. It's a blatantly colonialist view of California history, but it's a relic of its time. It can be viewed through the filter of a more modern sensibility. Should it come down? On the news story I saw on this issue, a black man spoke adamantly in favor of removing the thing because he saw it as racist. Another man of mixed, mostly Latino heritage, said that he was part Native American and it did not bother him.
5
This article's pretty casual about the accusations against Columbus. It's not anti-Italian sentiment fueling backlash against Columbus - it's documentation that he was responsible for mutilating, killing, and enslaving anywhere from thousands to hundreds of thousands of people from the native population while he was governor. People seem quick to dismiss it because they remember a rhyme about the guy, but the evidence pretty clearly suggests he was a bad person who doesn't deserve to be remembered with so much honor attached to his name.
11
But is Columbus being honored for that? That's the critical question. The statues of Confederate honor their service to the "Lost Cause," and in addition were erected in many if not most cases during Jim Crow, precisely to remind Black citizens "of the their place."
Context is everything.
Context is everything.
3
Well, I think we can agree that the Confederacy was a bad thing, slavery was a bad thing, rebellion against the country was a bad thing.
So, let's get rid of what we can agree on, and discuss the rest. They don't all have to be lumped into a giant "what do we about all statues" category.
So, let's get rid of what we can agree on, and discuss the rest. They don't all have to be lumped into a giant "what do we about all statues" category.
I don't think you'll find a single ruler from that age, or before, who wasn't brutal. Human rights hadn't been invented yet.
1
An irony just occurred to me - if, as many have suggested, we have plaques accompanying statues, with historical context of the subject of the statue and the time period of the placing of the statue, those who resist the statue's removal the most might prefer removal to having such unfavorable or nuanced plaques.
1
I would hope that the fate of every controversial monument could be decided by the local community, since they are the ones who have to see it day after day. Offending monuments can be moved to less prominent spaces, to private grounds, or to museums. All can have materials added to interpret the meaning of the monument for modern eyes.
1
Paul Begala, is wise. I wish more democrats would listen to him. We are letting trump and his pea brain supporters push our buttons too often and not thinking things through as we should.
1
For me, all this debate does serve a valuable purpose, and that is to try and force all people, everywhere, to resist the notion that complicated problems have easy answers. Almost nothing of substance in life is as black and white as too many small minds imagine it to be. This debate is necessary, in the headlines, on bar stools or in church basements; as it unfolds, nobody who isn't just determined to keep their blinders on can possibly believe that America's problems have easy answers. That was one of Trump's biggest cons - and too many believe him still.
13
You can rest assure that the Christians during and after Constantine had the same debate about the statues and temples to the Roman gods that proliferated throughout the Roman Empire. Many of them were cooked into lime for agricultural and primitive industrial use of the time.
Sarah --I do agree that discourse is needed. But debate cannot go on forever and I think at a subliminal level at least that was/is the appeal of the Trump approach. While yes it does also come across as jumping to an "easy answer" the appeal at bottom is that it is at least an answer a definitive attack. There is of course dangers involved in any definitive approach to a problem or issue. And depending on the potential result if it was the wrong one, there must be restraint in jumping too quickly. But taking no action while engaging in protracted debate over exactly the right action can eventually end up the equivalent of wrong action. If someone is suffering a potentially life-threatening injury or health condition, there is a point at which taking action albeit not assuredly the absolutely risk free action, is better than arguing over which action to take.
So yes, let us not jump to easy answers; but neither should we delay any kind of action debating which is the "best" or would cause the least peripheral harm while the patient bleeds to death..
So yes, let us not jump to easy answers; but neither should we delay any kind of action debating which is the "best" or would cause the least peripheral harm while the patient bleeds to death..
Let me get this correct …. People are surprised that after years of playing racial politics and insisting that we measure and count every person “not by the content of their character” but by the “color of their skin” we have come to this?
63
Bingo, brother. But the Left dwells on the past because it has no new ideas for the future. It is comprised of retrograde progressives.
3
Identity politics is killing the Democratic Party, but they cant see it or won't admit it because it wouldn't be politically correct.
3
Symbolism over substance. The left takes another dead end turn.
9
What about the Lincoln Memorial? Lincoln opposed slavery, but otherwise his views aligned nicely with those expressed by today’s white nationalists. As quoted by the New York Times, Abraham Lincoln said: “I am not now, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social or political equality of the white and black races. I am not now nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor of intermarriages with white people. There is a physical difference between the white and the black races which will forever forbid the two races living together on social or political equality. There must be a position of superior and inferior, and I am in favor of assigning the superior position to the white man.”
http://www.nytimes.com/1860/12/28/news/mr-lincoln-and-negro-equality.htm...
http://www.nytimes.com/1860/12/28/news/mr-lincoln-and-negro-equality.htm...
5
Where are the calls for the removal of Robert Byrd and FDR statues? If we're going to be consistent, they must go.
In the first half of the 20th century, Woodrow Wilson and FDR carried all 11 states of a rigidly segregationist South all six times they ran, and FDR rewarded Dixie by putting a Klansman on the Supreme Court.
There is a terrible war coming, and these young men who have never seen war cannot wait for it to happen, but I tell you, I wish that I owned every slave in the South, for I would free them all to avoid this war.
Robert E. Lee
In the first half of the 20th century, Woodrow Wilson and FDR carried all 11 states of a rigidly segregationist South all six times they ran, and FDR rewarded Dixie by putting a Klansman on the Supreme Court.
There is a terrible war coming, and these young men who have never seen war cannot wait for it to happen, but I tell you, I wish that I owned every slave in the South, for I would free them all to avoid this war.
Robert E. Lee
4
Can there be some reasonable agreement that there is a significant difference between tearing down a statue versus building a new one. Probably doesn't make sense to erect a statue of an Italian official from WWII in Chicago or a Lee statue in the South today.
But
They are there now, and we lose significantly as a culture by trying to bend our past to fit our modern morays and feelings. Replacing Balbo with Obama in Chicago might make us feel better now, but at significant cost going forward
Santayana applies here too.
But
They are there now, and we lose significantly as a culture by trying to bend our past to fit our modern morays and feelings. Replacing Balbo with Obama in Chicago might make us feel better now, but at significant cost going forward
Santayana applies here too.
3
For those of you who thought all Southerners who fought in the war were traitors and should have been hanged, I have 2 questions.
1. Didn't our government begin after a treasonous war against a king? I guess we shouldn't be here because all of those soldiers should have been hung.
2. Many Californian's are calling for secession. Are we going to hang everyone who votes yes?
When we are done, can we please give America back to the Native Americans it was stolen from? I meant the entire Country.
That should solve the problem.
This focus on statues and names is ludicrous and a sign of small minded individuals who don't see the bigger picture.
Spending money on removing monuments and changing signs NOW, with our national debt crisis makes no sense.
How about expending some energy in finding 2 or 3 really good candidates for the next election instead.
1. Didn't our government begin after a treasonous war against a king? I guess we shouldn't be here because all of those soldiers should have been hung.
2. Many Californian's are calling for secession. Are we going to hang everyone who votes yes?
When we are done, can we please give America back to the Native Americans it was stolen from? I meant the entire Country.
That should solve the problem.
This focus on statues and names is ludicrous and a sign of small minded individuals who don't see the bigger picture.
Spending money on removing monuments and changing signs NOW, with our national debt crisis makes no sense.
How about expending some energy in finding 2 or 3 really good candidates for the next election instead.
9
I'm not in agreement with all this statue removal, but you're setting up weak straw man arguments.
1) By common consent, the American Revolution was a necessary action. All the Northern delegates to the Constitutional Convention, and many of the Southern ones, clearly saw the hypocrisy of allowing slavery in direct violation of the ideals of the new nation, but they knew they had to include all 13 colonies. Most of them, including Jefferson, knew they were only kicking the can down the road.
2) "Many" Californians? Really? It's at best a whimsical social media here-today-gone-tomorrow thinking out loud. There's a big difference between that and taking up arms against your own country to affect dissolution.
Your "many" Californians understand that a war was fought that decisively made it impossible for a state to secede.
1) By common consent, the American Revolution was a necessary action. All the Northern delegates to the Constitutional Convention, and many of the Southern ones, clearly saw the hypocrisy of allowing slavery in direct violation of the ideals of the new nation, but they knew they had to include all 13 colonies. Most of them, including Jefferson, knew they were only kicking the can down the road.
2) "Many" Californians? Really? It's at best a whimsical social media here-today-gone-tomorrow thinking out loud. There's a big difference between that and taking up arms against your own country to affect dissolution.
Your "many" Californians understand that a war was fought that decisively made it impossible for a state to secede.
2
This whole issue as the comments show is an endless morass.
Perhaps a better idea would be to try to put existing monuments in historical perspective with the addition of plaques or new, countervailing displays.
Destroying statues and riding these ideas into the ground are not actually going to change much in America, but the resulting endless conflicts will waste energy better spent on substantive issues that will effect our future in important ways. While honoring traitors who tried to destroy the United States and professed repulsive ideas may seem strange, it is representative of the bitter divides that have riven this country from its very beginning and that are still tearing us apart. American history, and the people we choose to honor, are made of both the good they do and the bad. Denying this won't change it.
Perhaps a better idea would be to try to put existing monuments in historical perspective with the addition of plaques or new, countervailing displays.
Destroying statues and riding these ideas into the ground are not actually going to change much in America, but the resulting endless conflicts will waste energy better spent on substantive issues that will effect our future in important ways. While honoring traitors who tried to destroy the United States and professed repulsive ideas may seem strange, it is representative of the bitter divides that have riven this country from its very beginning and that are still tearing us apart. American history, and the people we choose to honor, are made of both the good they do and the bad. Denying this won't change it.
38
The problem of adding plaques is that the monument is so huge and imposing. They did that on purpose. Adding plaques would be appropriate if the monument were only a plaque or small marker.
Cricket99,
It was the North that waged un-relenting war on the South.
Had the North left the South alone there would have been no war.
If anyone destroyed the United States it was the Union who waged
war against States that had a Constitutional Right, sadly, to have slaves,
and don't forget the North had slavery until late 1865.
Nothing in the Constitution said the Southern States could not secede.
It was the North that waged un-relenting war on the South.
Had the North left the South alone there would have been no war.
If anyone destroyed the United States it was the Union who waged
war against States that had a Constitutional Right, sadly, to have slaves,
and don't forget the North had slavery until late 1865.
Nothing in the Constitution said the Southern States could not secede.
2
The left's fascination with absurd issues like this suggests they have learned nothing from the 2016 election. Maybe it will take a full generation out of power to help them learn what is and what isn't important to the majority of American voters.
9
Focus on what's important. If there were no continuing racism, with resulting discrimination, disenfranchisement, oppression, and hate, then these statues would be remnants of a long-ago time. Getting rid of the statues without addressing the fundamental problem is meaningless.
10
Communities have the right to decide whether they deem it better to remove a statue to someone or something that causes bitter memories.
In the Deep South, that is often monuments to the Confederacy.
If Donald Trump runs and wins again because of these community actions, we're in bigger trouble than I thought we were.
In the Deep South, that is often monuments to the Confederacy.
If Donald Trump runs and wins again because of these community actions, we're in bigger trouble than I thought we were.
4
Please tell me that a public stature of a man who rebelled against a legitimate government to keep other men as property is a good thing. Slavery was despicable and the men who wanted to keep it going were greedy. Slavery was about an economy kept profitable with labor that cost minimal because the slaves had no say. That's what slavery is - cost effective labor at the cost of human rights. Anyone condoning or glorifying those who fought to keep slavery are not heroes to whom statues should be displayed.
6
Going too far belittles the rest and has a cost of losing people as some in the article suggest. I'm more or less with Andrew Young's position.
A lot depends on WHY the statue or monument is there. In most cases of confederate monuments, their claim to fame was the confederacy and the circumstances of the monuments were mostly in the context of the Jim Crow and civil rights eras; the case that their purpose was intimidation, resistance to the federal government and north, is strong. That is not the case with many of these others - their statues were not meant as symbols of oppression.
E.g., Petain led France to military victories in WWI and is remembered for that, the reason he was in a leadership position in France at the start of WWII and for the plaque; his "collaboration with nazis" is a gross oversimplification - he surrendered because some say he had no choice after the Germans went right around his army, and once surrendered, had little control of things (I don't know if the latter statement is true). I don't know much about Rizzo, other than my impression that he was crass and 'colorful', but I doubt his statue was put up in the spirit of oppression, bigotry. Similarly, the confederate flag that flew at 6 flags was not put up as a symbol of intimidation and resistance, in contrast to the confederate flag put over the SC capitol during the civil rights movement.
A lot depends on WHY the statue or monument is there. In most cases of confederate monuments, their claim to fame was the confederacy and the circumstances of the monuments were mostly in the context of the Jim Crow and civil rights eras; the case that their purpose was intimidation, resistance to the federal government and north, is strong. That is not the case with many of these others - their statues were not meant as symbols of oppression.
E.g., Petain led France to military victories in WWI and is remembered for that, the reason he was in a leadership position in France at the start of WWII and for the plaque; his "collaboration with nazis" is a gross oversimplification - he surrendered because some say he had no choice after the Germans went right around his army, and once surrendered, had little control of things (I don't know if the latter statement is true). I don't know much about Rizzo, other than my impression that he was crass and 'colorful', but I doubt his statue was put up in the spirit of oppression, bigotry. Similarly, the confederate flag that flew at 6 flags was not put up as a symbol of intimidation and resistance, in contrast to the confederate flag put over the SC capitol during the civil rights movement.
4
Go right ahead and tear down that statue of Frank Rizzo, guaranteeing that Pennsylvania won't even be close in 2020.
23
You from Philly? I am. Those Rizzoites have voted GOP for some time now. It won't move the needle in PA
The left is off and running and Democrats wonder why an inept presidential candidate won the 2016 election. Really?
35
It doesn't matter...the official language of the United States in the future will be Spanish or Mandarin anyway....
6
Graveyards are full of people the world could not do without. We should stop naming building, schools and boulevards after famous men and women.
3
This indeed another example of political correctness run amok; and, as this article correctly suggests, thereby empowering the right, with good reason.
President Trump should have come out strongly against white supremacism and neo—Nazism; it was a serious error in judgement when he failed to do so. But this does not change the fact that he was correct when he stated that there was and is blame on both sides. It is frightening to watch many videos of the acts of vandalism by the left, including the video depicting an enraged and violent mob toppling a statute of a Confederate soldier (a soldier, not a Confederate leader) in Durham, NC, an act which could easily have caused serious injury, but fortunately did not. The mob seemed ignorant of the fact that many confederate soldiers were draftees, serving against their will.
Some have likened this vandalism by the left to the destruction of ancient ruins by ISIS. Unfortunately, it has become clear that there is at least some validity in this comparison.
Some monuments to the Confederacy do indeed need to come down, or at least to receive new signage and plaques acknowledging their abhorrent legacy. But this should be done legally and through the political process. Further, it is often worth preserving these artifacts, both for their artistic value, and so we never forget our history. “Those who do not learn history are condemned to repeat it.”
President Trump should have come out strongly against white supremacism and neo—Nazism; it was a serious error in judgement when he failed to do so. But this does not change the fact that he was correct when he stated that there was and is blame on both sides. It is frightening to watch many videos of the acts of vandalism by the left, including the video depicting an enraged and violent mob toppling a statute of a Confederate soldier (a soldier, not a Confederate leader) in Durham, NC, an act which could easily have caused serious injury, but fortunately did not. The mob seemed ignorant of the fact that many confederate soldiers were draftees, serving against their will.
Some have likened this vandalism by the left to the destruction of ancient ruins by ISIS. Unfortunately, it has become clear that there is at least some validity in this comparison.
Some monuments to the Confederacy do indeed need to come down, or at least to receive new signage and plaques acknowledging their abhorrent legacy. But this should be done legally and through the political process. Further, it is often worth preserving these artifacts, both for their artistic value, and so we never forget our history. “Those who do not learn history are condemned to repeat it.”
40
Let's re-name some of our state Capitals named after slaveholders: Start with Madison, WI. Then Jefferson City, MO, Columbus, OH, Jackson, MS. Oh yes, and what about Washington, DC? Then we can work on colleges, high schools and elementary schools.
When we've finished we can start thinking about the 2018 elections.
When we've finished we can start thinking about the 2018 elections.
42
I just returned from India where the British ruled for nearly 200 years before independence. You can find monuments commissioned by the British Empire all over the country and no one seem to care. They actually enjoy them. Similarly, the nationalist Hindu party has not proposed tearing down Taj Mahal either. So if nearly 2 billion people all over the world who were enslaved by some conquering regime do not mind the monuments I fail to see why we should tear all of them down.
38
Largest English speaking nation in the world as well as the largest democracy. The British oversaw the modernization of a great people who absorbed what their "masters" offered them (yes there were opponents and revolutionaries) but the inevitable outcome was a great and prosperous English speaking nation.
2
From the beginning, the movement to tear down century-old Confederate monuments had the flavor of the Chinese Cultural Revolution of the 1960s. That attempt at purification didn't end well either. Eventually, I imagine, people will demand to tear down Martin Luther King's monuments because of homophobic statements he made, or Malcolm X memorials because of his anti-Semitic comments? The end logic of this is no monuments to any historic figure, because there are no perfect people. Whatever happened to tolerance?
52
Excellent comment. Thanks. "Purification" is exactly the word.
6
Seems more like ISIS or the Taliban destroying monuments or Hitler's book-burning
1
Larry
The Cultural Revolution did that as well. They destroyed anything 'old' that they could get their hands on. Anything old was bad.
The Cultural Revolution did that as well. They destroyed anything 'old' that they could get their hands on. Anything old was bad.
2
DO NOT DESTROY ART! We are not ISIS! Move the offending statue or monument or use it as a teachable moment, but NEVER DESTROY ART.
Destroying art is NOT the solution. Ever. Ever.
Destroying art is NOT the solution. Ever. Ever.
31
We are going down a long road to nowhere by wasting time on statues and flags.
History is unfortunately filled with bloodshed, slavery, subjugation, the conquered and the conquerors. No group has been spared. No man or woman is perfect. Instead of wasting time and money are this futile exercise, why don't be focus on education and job training.
History is unfortunately filled with bloodshed, slavery, subjugation, the conquered and the conquerors. No group has been spared. No man or woman is perfect. Instead of wasting time and money are this futile exercise, why don't be focus on education and job training.
22
GO GLOBAL: Tear Down The Roman Colosseum, Pyramids Of Egypt, Parthenon & Acropolis In Athens! Because hey, those were built by slaves and their only use is to generate tourism money. (I smell reparations opportunities) What about Busts, Statues, Paintings, and Mummies memorializing slave owners in ancient Rome, Greece, Europe and the Middle East?
Wait a Minute. Only 6.5% of slaves ended up in the U.S.A. We need to look into tearing up a whole bunch of stuff in the Caribbean, and Brazil. While we're at it, what about castles built by Kings using feudal peasants or vassals (because what's the difference, right?).
And we can take that to even a different dimension. Being drafty, with no insulation, they've got to be a slap in the face to climate change somebodies too, I'm sure of it. And can you imagine the fossil fuel usage to get tourists to the Grand Canyon? What would it take to fill that in?
Wait a Minute. Only 6.5% of slaves ended up in the U.S.A. We need to look into tearing up a whole bunch of stuff in the Caribbean, and Brazil. While we're at it, what about castles built by Kings using feudal peasants or vassals (because what's the difference, right?).
And we can take that to even a different dimension. Being drafty, with no insulation, they've got to be a slap in the face to climate change somebodies too, I'm sure of it. And can you imagine the fossil fuel usage to get tourists to the Grand Canyon? What would it take to fill that in?
49
Thank you! Since the leftist ideology is a globalist one, that makes perfect sense! Oh, you forgot the Statue of Liberty - a white European woman.
3
Once upon a time, the only public displays that inspired this level of drama were Nativity Scenes and the Ten Commandments.
15
In ultra liberal Oregon, there are statues and monuments honoring Lewis & Clark. Lewis & Clark owned a slave who accompanied them on their expeditions. Yet, I have not read anyone from Oregon advocating the removal of these statues and monuments. This is clearly hypocritical.
31
Who ever looks at these statutes?
Now statues of Venus and David, yes. But Frank Rizzo?
Now statues of Venus and David, yes. But Frank Rizzo?
8
If you are from South Philly, a pilgrimage to that statue is a requirement at least once in your lifetime....
I think we should tear down All statues. When we are done with confederate statues, we can then work on getting rid of all religious and black monuments. I think the MLK statues everywhere should go next, but I'm reasonable and would settle for pulling down religious monuments first. Why not?
11
This sounds like Mao trying to expunge "counterrevolutionary" ideas and symbols from China. A sign that a country has completely lost its mind. Next, are the Nationalists going to retreat to Texas (Taiwan)?
33
There's an expression coming to mind as possibly appropriate to the subject here discussed: 'You're shooting yourself in your own foot'. The 'you' is referring to 'whom'? is the koan.
3
What is left unsaid (but can easily be seen when one peruses random quotes from "Africana" faculty and students) is the racialist animus that extends to everything and everybody not of their little enclave. Anyone who thinks this hatred will abate by token gestures is deluding themselves. Anyone thinking that these racialist 'advocates' are demanding anything less than total abject capitulation are deluding themselves.
The racialists almost took over the DNC chair. Unless the 'progressive left' pushes back, the Democrats can be certain to be relegated to wandering the electoral wilderness for a very long time. And deservedly so. What I am asking whether it makes sense for academia to establish and support the radical fringe that aims at taking apart the democratic institutions and process. Perhaps we have gone too far?!
The racialists almost took over the DNC chair. Unless the 'progressive left' pushes back, the Democrats can be certain to be relegated to wandering the electoral wilderness for a very long time. And deservedly so. What I am asking whether it makes sense for academia to establish and support the radical fringe that aims at taking apart the democratic institutions and process. Perhaps we have gone too far?!
27
I'd love to read an article by a historian, reminding us that people have been tearing down statutes for as long as they have been putting them up. Who stayed up, and who came down, and when, says enormous amounts about society.
1
Like in an ancient battle, tearing down the other side's totems and flags and erecting our own in their place, this left/right fracas over whose ornaments get to be seen in the public domain attracts the shallowest and broadest cohort of partisans. When MLK and Malcolm were achieving actual legal civil rights and ending actual segregation, I don't think they were too bothered by antique monuments and flags.
3
Christopher Columbus? George Washington?
Those who would have these men's statues removed because of their treatment of Native Americans and African Americans are at grave risk of setting a very dangerous precedent.
What happens a hundred years from now when the Feminists who rule the country want MLK's monuments removed, because historians have by that time documented what is known but ignored in the current day: that he was a serial philanderer who treated women as nothing more than objects of pleasure?
Those who would have these men's statues removed because of their treatment of Native Americans and African Americans are at grave risk of setting a very dangerous precedent.
What happens a hundred years from now when the Feminists who rule the country want MLK's monuments removed, because historians have by that time documented what is known but ignored in the current day: that he was a serial philanderer who treated women as nothing more than objects of pleasure?
26
If we're going to remove monuments to folks who did terrible things to others of different race/identity/etc., a place one might start is Father Junipero Serro, a saint of the reknown of Robert E. Lee to Californians. For all the good he did (and that was notable), his treatment of the native peoples of that state was truly ugly. He's not alone, of course: the treatment of native peoples by whites was often nothing short of racial cleansing. And much more. As the apostle Paul said, "there is none righteous, no one one." If one thinks that removing a few Confederate statues cleans up the past, they're wrong: it's only just a beginning.
11
This is not just about "folks [or groups] who did terrible things to others" and it's not just about nostalgia.
The confederate and Nazi flags and the various confederate generals are symbols and people that were responsible for the killing and maiming of hundreds of thousands of U.S. soldiers and sailors. Some of us - including those who have served this country in uniform - are opposed to memorializing that set of activities.
The confederate and Nazi flags and the various confederate generals are symbols and people that were responsible for the killing and maiming of hundreds of thousands of U.S. soldiers and sailors. Some of us - including those who have served this country in uniform - are opposed to memorializing that set of activities.
11
Slavery was an act of the country, not of only certain individuals. Confederate statues stand in place because a segment of our society still believes that the South was justified in promoting slavery. It's not the same thing as a random statue of a random person.
2
It's not cleaning up the past, it is removing memorials to racists and traitors.
2
It's a terrible idea to remove any statutes, especially right now. It will lead to more needless riots, & more Americans getting hurt, none of which we need. We need to take a deep breath & find a better way. The people leading the movement to remove our historical monuments ...by that I mean Antifa and the far left...are a divisive force & it's important they lose this one. They want to eliminate all statutes...and that includes Washington, Jefferson, and Jackson...because they owned slaves or were racists by 2017 standards. That's their end game. We need to stop deluding ourselves. Bishop James Dukes of the Liberation Christian Center in Chicago is calling for the removal of Washington's & Andrew Jackson’s statues and & stripping of their names from parks. Dukes says these monuments are “a slap in the face & it’s a disgrace” for African Americans. The call to remove Washington’s statue came less than a day after President Trump asked whether Washington would be next in the movement to remove statues like the Robert E. Lee monument in Charlottesville. Last Thursday on CNN Angela Rye said statues and monuments of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson also need to be removed in addition to the Confederate monuments. I don’t care if it’s a George Washington statue or a Thomas Jefferson statue or a Robert E. Lee statue. They all need to come down,” she said. This is what we are fighting. The people leading this movement are irrational fanatics. We can't allow this to happen.
25
Good luck trying to pull down Stone Mountain. Now that is a Southern Strategy that the Republicans could only have hoped for.
6
This is really not as complicated as everyone is making it. If there's a statue of Robert E. Lee in Somewheresville, then the people of Somewheresville can vote as [often as they want] whether to to take it down or not. Nobody else gets a vote. Nobody. Problem solved.
5
So this simply confirms what many judicious and more thoughtful people suspected: This entire issue is simply an extension of politically motivated demagogy for whatever purpose and to whatever reason that advances the political ends or beliefs of those who are currently in power.
The Charlottesville city council passed the resolution to remove a statue of Robert E. Lee taking by a three to two vote. Never mind that surrounding rural areas were overwhelmingly opposed to the decision; never mind that the issue could have been decided with much greater appeal and much greater unity through a state wide referendum; never mind that that the local judiciary considered the decision to be one of legislative overreach; never mind that most Americans oppose the removal of historical statues or symbols; never mind because three out of five members of the Charlottesville city council had the power to speak for the entire nation and, in so doing, threw the entire country into an uproar.
Democracy at its finest.
The Charlottesville city council passed the resolution to remove a statue of Robert E. Lee taking by a three to two vote. Never mind that surrounding rural areas were overwhelmingly opposed to the decision; never mind that the issue could have been decided with much greater appeal and much greater unity through a state wide referendum; never mind that that the local judiciary considered the decision to be one of legislative overreach; never mind that most Americans oppose the removal of historical statues or symbols; never mind because three out of five members of the Charlottesville city council had the power to speak for the entire nation and, in so doing, threw the entire country into an uproar.
Democracy at its finest.
19
Are you suggesting that the entire country, or the state, should get to tell the city of Charlottesville what it can do with its property?
1
A local city council deciding by majority vote what statues it wants to put up or take down in its city is, actually, democracy.
If the courts truly though it was legislative overreach they would stop it. But they didn't.
As for a state-wide referendum,... seriously? What other second guessing of a city's esthetic choices would you like to engage in? How often to mow the grass? I think the color of the city's classrooms should be voted on by the entire state- a great use of tax dollars.
I'm actually fine with city council members speaking "for the entire nation" on things in their city. That's kinda their job.
If the courts truly though it was legislative overreach they would stop it. But they didn't.
As for a state-wide referendum,... seriously? What other second guessing of a city's esthetic choices would you like to engage in? How often to mow the grass? I think the color of the city's classrooms should be voted on by the entire state- a great use of tax dollars.
I'm actually fine with city council members speaking "for the entire nation" on things in their city. That's kinda their job.
3
President Andrew Jackson is very unpopular these days and if the recent tidal wave to wash away monuments continues to storm from coast to coast, soon the under currents will draw attention to other people less visible but of equal historical reference.
As the issue still lingers in the public spot light concerning the NFL and former 49er quarterback Colin Kaepernick continue into another football season, will this battle concerning honoring the US national anthem merge with the battle surrounding monuments?
If so don't be surprised if people demand the removal of the national anthem being played prior to sporting events, not because the anthem is offensive itself, but because Francis Scott Key was the attorney General under Jackson.
As the issue still lingers in the public spot light concerning the NFL and former 49er quarterback Colin Kaepernick continue into another football season, will this battle concerning honoring the US national anthem merge with the battle surrounding monuments?
If so don't be surprised if people demand the removal of the national anthem being played prior to sporting events, not because the anthem is offensive itself, but because Francis Scott Key was the attorney General under Jackson.
4
This is the very definition of the "slippery slope" when it comes to public expression and restriction of speech and ideas. Universally reviled ideas and symbols are cast away through largely uncontroversial means. Then groups of all stripes demand that their foes' symbols and expressions be curbed by the government. We will weaken our diverse nation, and ourselves one day be the subject of censorship, if the statue hunting continues. We have survived for decades and grown more diverse and accepting in the face of these public statues and symbols. They have not slowed us. The morality underpinning these purges does not outweigh the public good - necessity - of robust expression and display. With utter certainty, we will regret it.
6
Full disclosure...I voted against Trump. Removing these monuments is a very bad idea because, just as ISIS did, it attempts to obliterate history for ideological purposes. The monuments should remain, but be transformed into objects of ridicule and derision. Or, one could take the high road and do something like install a freedom bell near the Stone Mountain monument in Georgia and have it ring once an hour to remind people of MLK's words ("Let freedom ring...") as the look upon the "heroic" figures of the Confederacy.
3
I say leave the Confederate statues where they are. However, a much larger statue of a Union soldier should be placed to tower over the Confederate figures. That way, perhaps, the Confederates and their apologists would remember exactly how their last rebellion ended. It's a more honest depiction of our history.
1
Where does it end? And what happens when we destroy all the "offensive" symbols and people are still "in pain"?
For one, I seriously doubt that most of those calling for this are truly informed about these historical figures. And two, NO human being is perfect!
Even MLK, who is rightly honored for his civil rights work, was a flawed person who cheated on his wife. Should we remove statues of him, lest they offend women? What a crazy idea that people who sometimes do bad things cannot also be celebrated for doing good things!
If Democrats think this is their road to recovery, they are sorely mistaken.
For one, I seriously doubt that most of those calling for this are truly informed about these historical figures. And two, NO human being is perfect!
Even MLK, who is rightly honored for his civil rights work, was a flawed person who cheated on his wife. Should we remove statues of him, lest they offend women? What a crazy idea that people who sometimes do bad things cannot also be celebrated for doing good things!
If Democrats think this is their road to recovery, they are sorely mistaken.
32
The latest take on modern history:
Ever since we decided to revise history by removing anything negative, our history has been nothing but happiness. There were never any wars or bad people, or slavers, tyrants, and anti-semites,and evil-doers. Every country and every leader of countries were always great and took care of their people.
Ever since we decided to revise history by removing anything negative, our history has been nothing but happiness. There were never any wars or bad people, or slavers, tyrants, and anti-semites,and evil-doers. Every country and every leader of countries were always great and took care of their people.
7
Why no hysterical screeching to remove monuments to FDR???? you know, the President that interred Japanes Americans. Was that not RACIST enough for you "progressives". Then, ponder this, as Sec. of the Navy, good ole FDR also ran the Newport Trials. Look it up - it was the witch hunt to ferret out and PROSECUTE HOMOSEXUALS in the Navy. FDR was the bulldog prosecutor in that affair. Come on, Lefties, eat your own here in the name of WHAT'S RIGHT.
20
When Jessie Owens came back from winning four gold medals at the 1936 Berlin games, he was not given the tribute of being invited to the FDR White House; and, according to Mr. Owens, FDR never acknowledge his victories . . . in any fashion, whatsoever!
8
Do I want to see a confederate flag flying or plastered on someone's shirt? No. But, as an artist, I understand the need to keep our statues of those in history who may have not acted as appropriately as we today would have liked. The purpose of art is to remind man of his humanity, which includes man's faults. If we are not reminded of a time in US history where our country was near torn apart, how will we remember to never go down that same road in the future? We won't! It may hurt to see a statue of Robert E. Lee or Columbus, but use that art to TEACH!! Use it to teach our children and ourselves why those roads are not to be traveled again.
4
Don't forget to tear down all the statues of Union soldiers and cavalry as well. Their treatment of indigenous peoples - AFTER the civil war - make the treatment of slaves in the south seem mild. The so-called "Indian wars" were an attempt to wipe native Americans of many tribes off the face of the earth.
19
I don't think it's complicated - for me, the dispositive question is, what is the reason for honoring the person? We honor George Washington because he was our revolutionary commander, president of our constitutional convention, and our first president - not because he owned slaves. I assume that Washington and Lee University honors Robert E. Lee as one of its past presidents, not as a Confederate general and a traitor to the United States. We honor Christopher Columbus because he acted, with the courage of his convictions, on his insight that the world is round, not flat, and thereby opened the "age of exploration" - not because of his treatment of Native Americans.
By contrast, the statues of Confederate generals (Lee included) that populate town squares, mostly in the South, honor those men because they were Confederate generals. In other words, those statues honor men for what in almost every case was the very most immoral thing they did in their entire lives. Furthermore, most of those statues were put in place by white supremacists in reaction to periods of African-American advancement.
In my book, the line between acceptable and unacceptable public statues is bright and clear. Men honored because they were military or political leaders of the Confederacy fall far over on the unacceptable side.
politicsbyeccehomo.wordpress.com
By contrast, the statues of Confederate generals (Lee included) that populate town squares, mostly in the South, honor those men because they were Confederate generals. In other words, those statues honor men for what in almost every case was the very most immoral thing they did in their entire lives. Furthermore, most of those statues were put in place by white supremacists in reaction to periods of African-American advancement.
In my book, the line between acceptable and unacceptable public statues is bright and clear. Men honored because they were military or political leaders of the Confederacy fall far over on the unacceptable side.
politicsbyeccehomo.wordpress.com
6
Other than the absurdity of our society that the outcry makes obvious, there is a certain sadness that comes to mind. Do these protestors have any heroes in public life that they look up to or admire? How can they, as even those that have helped society a great deal were not perfect. I could make an argument that every street, school, and park that has been named for Martin Luthor King should be immediately changed because of his terrible treatment of his wife. Values change over time, so holding historical figures to the current ones, which will not be the values in the future, seems to be ultimately self defeating.
9
I think it's all to the good that we are having this conversation at last, and questioning the reasons these particular monuments were installed and whether they still mean the same thing today and whether they still reflect who we are and what we aspire to be. But let's not start indiscriminately taking them down before that larger discussion can even get underway. That makes us no different than the Taliban who destroyed the Buddhas in Afghanistan in 2001.
7
Somehow the President has gotten our conversation to move from Friday night's Nazi Demonstration to the topic of Confederate Statues.
The "statues" conversation is a fine one to have, but let's not pretend that anyone who showed up on a Friday night to march with torches and chant "Jews Will Not Replace Us" was thinking about Statues.
The invitation was not about Statues. The keynote speech by neo-Nazi Richard Spencer was not about Statues. This is all not about Statues.
The "statues" conversation is a fine one to have, but let's not pretend that anyone who showed up on a Friday night to march with torches and chant "Jews Will Not Replace Us" was thinking about Statues.
The invitation was not about Statues. The keynote speech by neo-Nazi Richard Spencer was not about Statues. This is all not about Statues.
5
Our Founders are off limits. They should be honored.
2
What we are witnessing is the Democrat Party cleansing the past.
"Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. In this way every prediction made by the Party could be shown by documentary evidence to have been correct; nor was any item of news, or any expression of opinion, which conflicted with the needs of the moment, ever allowed to remain on record. All history was a palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary."- George Orwell, 1984
"And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed-if all records told the same tale-then the lie passed into history and became truth. 'Who controls the past' ran the Party slogan, 'controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.'" - George Orwell, 1984
Why isn't Senator Robert Byrds reputiated? Because:
"The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them....To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies -- all this is indispensably necessary." George Orwell explains the usage doublethink.
"Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. In this way every prediction made by the Party could be shown by documentary evidence to have been correct; nor was any item of news, or any expression of opinion, which conflicted with the needs of the moment, ever allowed to remain on record. All history was a palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary."- George Orwell, 1984
"And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed-if all records told the same tale-then the lie passed into history and became truth. 'Who controls the past' ran the Party slogan, 'controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.'" - George Orwell, 1984
Why isn't Senator Robert Byrds reputiated? Because:
"The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them....To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies -- all this is indispensably necessary." George Orwell explains the usage doublethink.
19
Democrats already have enough trouble turning out their voters in mid-term elections. If referenda to remove statues and monuments of all types are on local and state ballots, I foresee many more committed Republicans coming out to save not only Johnny Reb and the Confederate generals but Columbus, Faneuil Hall, and various street and school names. How are they going to overcome where this revisionist mob mentality is leading them on Election Day?
17
Although I'm a life-long left winger, I no longer recognize the American left wing.
We've been at war for 16 years now, are now at war in who knows how many countries with no end in sight, wealth is more concentrated in the US than at any time since the Hoover administration, the US is the only industrial country without guaranteed health care, only China has a bigger carbon footprint than the US--and we're arguing over statues?
We've been at war for 16 years now, are now at war in who knows how many countries with no end in sight, wealth is more concentrated in the US than at any time since the Hoover administration, the US is the only industrial country without guaranteed health care, only China has a bigger carbon footprint than the US--and we're arguing over statues?
29
After all the politically incorrect statues, plaques and monuments are taken down so they no longer offend anyone what's next? I'll be happy to tell you the next step. Angry people on both sides are going to start invading libraries and book stores, remove biographies of people they disapprove of like Robert E Lee, Stonewall Jackson and Christopher Columbus, and burn them. There hasn't been a good old fashioned book burning since Nazi Germany so we're over due for one. We should also include Donald Trump's "Art of the Deal" to the politically incorrect reading list of books that are now verboten. Let's go on to banning certain movies like Gone With the Wind and Forrest Gump. Why Forrest Gump?. At the beginning of the film Forrest explains how he got his name. It seems that Forrest was named after the incredibly racist Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forest who founded a club called the Ku Klux Klan. As Forrest explains: They would ride around at night in their bed sheets. They even put bed sheets on their horses." There's no way Forrest Gump would be allowed to pass muster in today's explosive atmosphere. Maybe the Academy should strip Gone With the Wind (for inaccurately depicting happy slaves) and Forrest Gump (because the title character was named after an evil Confederate general) of their Best Picture Oscars.
This nightmare goes on and on with no end in sight.
This nightmare goes on and on with no end in sight.
38
Meanwhile, Melissa Mark-Viverito is ignorantly (or venally) scoring cheap political points by demanding that a statue of the man called the father of gynecology be torn down, allegedly because he did racist experimentation. Anyone considering going along with her must read this first:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2563360/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2563360/
12
Very interesting article. Thank you.
1
I think it's time to test the dedication of anti-monumentists. (This is not my original concept but embellished from other posts) Most forms of currency and coinage of the US bears a "monument" to someone. So if that certain person engraved on the money is considered a racist or slave-owner, the offended should immediately go to the town square, make a large pile of all the racist monies they have been afflicted with (throw the coins in the middle of the pile so they'll melt!) and torch the evil things! It will be a measure of your dedication to your ideology.
5
If the South would like monuments to remind them of the the Civil War and the Confederacy, then by all means place a monument in every town square in the South, but those monuments should be of Lincoln, Grant and Sherman. Bottom line is the Confederacy lost the Civil War and monuments are to commemorate the victors.
2
"monuments are to commemorate the victors"
Should the Vietnam Memorial be torn down?
Should the Vietnam Memorial be torn down?
9
We lost the Vietnam War.
Yet there is a big memorial for those who died and served, including a great big statue.
A statue of the LOSERS -- us.
I wonder what Vietnamese-American citizens think, when they see or read about the Vietnam memorial.
Are you suggesting that a proper memorial for the Vietnam War would be a giant statue of a Vietnamese peasant, sticking a bayonet into an American soldier? Or maybe one of LBJ, gloating? or his generals?
Please detail this.
Yet there is a big memorial for those who died and served, including a great big statue.
A statue of the LOSERS -- us.
I wonder what Vietnamese-American citizens think, when they see or read about the Vietnam memorial.
Are you suggesting that a proper memorial for the Vietnam War would be a giant statue of a Vietnamese peasant, sticking a bayonet into an American soldier? Or maybe one of LBJ, gloating? or his generals?
Please detail this.
1
Progressives just keep doing the same thing over and over, and wonder why they are losing elections.
32
Perhaps we can draw the line at confederate monuments. It is highly peculiar for a nation to erect monuments to high treason. These monuments were mostly erected after reconstruction ended, and they served to deliver a very specific message: The North may have won the peace, but the South won the war, and Blacks (and Whites, for that matter) living in the South were living in a society built according Jeff Davis' vision, not Abraham Lincoln's.
Beyond this, I agree that pulling down of statutes threatens to become the transgender bathroom movement of 2017. After the election, much lip service was paid to listening to the concerns of working class whites. On one level, the removal of various monuments is perceived by them as a movement to eradicate their place in American society. For the most part, that's a misconception.
But another major reason that working class whites have rejected liberalism is because it appears to offer them nothing of value. Pulling down statues won't bring back one plentiful jobs that paid decent wages, but were lost to globalization. It won't make it easier to send their kids to college. It won't get them decent and affordable healthcare. It will do nothing to make the "rigged game" economy fairer. The Republican plan won't do any of these things either; it will likely make them worse. But by rejecting "political correctness" Republicans create the illusion that they are at least offering them something: Respect.
Beyond this, I agree that pulling down of statutes threatens to become the transgender bathroom movement of 2017. After the election, much lip service was paid to listening to the concerns of working class whites. On one level, the removal of various monuments is perceived by them as a movement to eradicate their place in American society. For the most part, that's a misconception.
But another major reason that working class whites have rejected liberalism is because it appears to offer them nothing of value. Pulling down statues won't bring back one plentiful jobs that paid decent wages, but were lost to globalization. It won't make it easier to send their kids to college. It won't get them decent and affordable healthcare. It will do nothing to make the "rigged game" economy fairer. The Republican plan won't do any of these things either; it will likely make them worse. But by rejecting "political correctness" Republicans create the illusion that they are at least offering them something: Respect.
11
I'm a Democrat by the way:
NPR ran a piece with Andrew Young that should be listened to. He is for keeping these monuments.
http://www.npr.org/2017/08/23/545435024/civil-rights-activist-argues-to-...
The LIBERALS out there barking for removal, and I was one at first, may want to listen to a man who knew the lack of freedom, marched with Dr. King and has a perspective on this that should be respected and heard.
NPR ran a piece with Andrew Young that should be listened to. He is for keeping these monuments.
http://www.npr.org/2017/08/23/545435024/civil-rights-activist-argues-to-...
The LIBERALS out there barking for removal, and I was one at first, may want to listen to a man who knew the lack of freedom, marched with Dr. King and has a perspective on this that should be respected and heard.
8
Peggy Noonan wrote last week the best compromise might be to raise new statues, not remove old ones. Highlight the best parts of our past, especially underappreciated women and non-whites. Additional historical context around statues, the good and the bad, would be good too.
I think she is onto something.
I think she is onto something.
13
Tear down the George Washington Bridge. It's a living monument of a former slave owner and should not be allowed to be a part of the NEW History of America. I am sure Mayor de Blasio is working on those plans right now.
33
Why is it that 'conservatives' feel a need to attack actions that no one has even proposed? Is it not sufficient to discuss things that are real?
2
Not yet, Justin. Not yet.
1
In an effort to maybe try to keep this area a little bit of sane, how about we only look at one piece of history at at a time.
This week, for the rest of the year, let's agree that it's the Civil War and Confederacy. Fills up plenty of time and addresses thousands of locations that are under scrutiny.
The rest of time can and will have its time, for sure.
This week, for the rest of the year, let's agree that it's the Civil War and Confederacy. Fills up plenty of time and addresses thousands of locations that are under scrutiny.
The rest of time can and will have its time, for sure.
1
This mob fervor is no different than ISIS blowing up Buddhist monuments or the pharaohs obliterating obelisks and other lionizing edifices to eradicate history and eliminate any competing philosophies.
It is decidedly unAmerican, by definition.
It is decidedly unAmerican, by definition.
31
Going to extremes over this kind of thing gives ammunition to Trump and his brethren. Middle of the road and many left leaning people see this and wonder what/who is next. It seems that there's always a group who's offended by something. Extemeism of any sort is seldom logical,and seldom just. This includes being politically correct in the extreme.
17
I lean slightly to the right and I also wonder who/what is next. It seems anymore, everyone is anti-everything which just stops the wheel from turning.
2
Ah, but who, precisely, gets to define "extreme?" You?
From your tone, it sounds as though you would like that honor.
“The past was erased, the erasure was forgotten, the lie became the truth.”
~ George Orwell, 1984
The trouble with removing many statues, whether seen as symbols of the rebellion of the Confederacy or those seen by some as 'white imperialists', is who is to decide what is offensive and what is not? What group of people can we rely upon to dispassionately and reasonably make these choices?
Attempting to erase parts of history is effectively an attempt to rewrite history. Many societies in the past, and even in our world today, have practiced slavery and continue to enslave others, which is an abhorrent use of power.
To attempt to view the history of figures who lived more than one hundred years ago as inherently evil persons, even 'traitorous', is making the error of viewing their history from the prism of our hopefully more enlightened times and sensibilities.
History and its figures, some perceived as notorious today, is usually far more nuanced and complex than we may imagine, and deserves careful, thoughtful reflection. What seems to be happening in some quarters today seems more of a mob mentality, and one inflamed with thoughts of retribution and grievance for actions from the past, rather than actions of a body of people who carefully deliberate.
~ George Orwell, 1984
The trouble with removing many statues, whether seen as symbols of the rebellion of the Confederacy or those seen by some as 'white imperialists', is who is to decide what is offensive and what is not? What group of people can we rely upon to dispassionately and reasonably make these choices?
Attempting to erase parts of history is effectively an attempt to rewrite history. Many societies in the past, and even in our world today, have practiced slavery and continue to enslave others, which is an abhorrent use of power.
To attempt to view the history of figures who lived more than one hundred years ago as inherently evil persons, even 'traitorous', is making the error of viewing their history from the prism of our hopefully more enlightened times and sensibilities.
History and its figures, some perceived as notorious today, is usually far more nuanced and complex than we may imagine, and deserves careful, thoughtful reflection. What seems to be happening in some quarters today seems more of a mob mentality, and one inflamed with thoughts of retribution and grievance for actions from the past, rather than actions of a body of people who carefully deliberate.
33
You're forgetting that the erection of these monuments was itself an attempt to erase history. And I'd say that aim has largely been successful. Not that humanity has ever found it difficult to forget history.
It's important to remember, but do we need the monuments to do that? Wouldn't pictures suffice? Do we need to keep separate white and colored drinking fountains across the country to remind us of our sinful past?
It's important to remember, but do we need the monuments to do that? Wouldn't pictures suffice? Do we need to keep separate white and colored drinking fountains across the country to remind us of our sinful past?
Maybe we should change all the French names in the former Louisiana Purchase since Napoleon had a pro-slavery policy in the colonies
33
North Korea seems to have found the perfect memorial solution. Only statues of the grandfather, the father, and the son...and no one objects.
19
"It began with calls to remove Confederate generals."
You are incorrect. it all started when the politicians ended reconstruction and left the former slaves without and legal protection. The political deal made in 1877 marked the beginning of the rebirth of white supremacist south sanctioned by that deal.
You are incorrect. it all started when the politicians ended reconstruction and left the former slaves without and legal protection. The political deal made in 1877 marked the beginning of the rebirth of white supremacist south sanctioned by that deal.
4
Does the monument honor someone, or some event that was constructive and admirable in the country's history, or does it honor an attempt to destroy the country, and it's founding laws and principles? Can we not celebrate an exploratory spirit, a revolutionary founding figure, fighters for our rights and supporters of cultural and welfare organizations, scientific discoverers and inventors? Others need not be collectively honored via statues, place names and identified with public institutions. If someone wants a memorial to Confederate military and political figures they can do it on private property.
4
I wish Democrats did not think about every issue of this ilk in political terms but instead asked is this debate argument really good for the mental health of the United States. The pros and cons are always considered in terms of whether it is going to excite the Democratic base or some special interest group and not whether it is good for America.
Maybe that is the point of the Democratic Party: that the Democratic Party is no longer interested in what is good for the USA but only in what might help them get elected.
I would love a return to sanity. What made America great was a sense that all Americans were first American and second whatever adjective came first. I do not think that is true anymore and we run serious risks as a society if we allow that condition to continue.
Maybe that is the point of the Democratic Party: that the Democratic Party is no longer interested in what is good for the USA but only in what might help them get elected.
I would love a return to sanity. What made America great was a sense that all Americans were first American and second whatever adjective came first. I do not think that is true anymore and we run serious risks as a society if we allow that condition to continue.
17
What you wish for the Democrats certainly apply to the Republicans too.
2
Once again, liberals prove Trump correct. Where does it end?
83
It's always weird when you realize it's one of two times a day the broken clock is right.
1
Say what you will, but the Confederates were traitors against the US. Justify it if you can.
50
You would say the same thing about the signers of the declaration if they had lost. No matter how noble their cause looks in hindsight. History favors the victors.
7
Common wisdom about common soldiers throughout history: they were fighting for each other.
Current hysteria about common Confederate soldiers: they were fighting for slavery.
Current hysteria about common Confederate soldiers: they were fighting for slavery.
5
They exited the Union and formed their own country in accordance with the Constitution. How is that being a traitor? When the Union refused to leave their newly formed country the Union was fired upon and started a War.
5
It's the Republicans who are missing a great opportunity to bring the country together. Instead of arguing which statues should come down, they should offer a bill prohibiting which new statues could go up. If, for example, they should propose a bill prohibiting a monument to Hillary, I'm sure it would pass both Chambers UNANIMOUSLY.
4
Where's all the tough talk about "winners writing the history books?" Why is this an issue now, when those who usually espouse this fact, the so called "tough" guys are losing? Racism is dying in the USA and that's a good thing. The bigots are in their death throes and the best they can do is complain on message boards or act like cowards and attack women and children from the safety of a car. Traitors lost the war over a hundred years and we still coddle them.
3
You seem to lack an understanding of both "the slippery slope" and the law of unintended consequences.
What happens when the Right insists we tear-down all of FDR's statues, on account of his racially-biased Executive Order 9066, interring not only immigrants of Japanese descent but also literally tens of thousands of American citizens that happened to be of Japanese descent?
Perhaps we should scour West Virginia (and Washington D.C.), pulling-down all monuments to Robert Byrd? How many people realize that, in 2010, the senior most DEMOCRATIC Senator, also the longest-serving senator in U.S. history, was a card-carrying member of the KKK, and had published an open letter to President Truman, threatening to spit on his commission in the US Army before he would serve with a black soldier (that letter also used the "N" word more times than a Ludicrous rap song).
What happens when the Right insists we tear-down all of FDR's statues, on account of his racially-biased Executive Order 9066, interring not only immigrants of Japanese descent but also literally tens of thousands of American citizens that happened to be of Japanese descent?
Perhaps we should scour West Virginia (and Washington D.C.), pulling-down all monuments to Robert Byrd? How many people realize that, in 2010, the senior most DEMOCRATIC Senator, also the longest-serving senator in U.S. history, was a card-carrying member of the KKK, and had published an open letter to President Truman, threatening to spit on his commission in the US Army before he would serve with a black soldier (that letter also used the "N" word more times than a Ludicrous rap song).
2
Hi Trip!
I assume you're new to journalism, since in the first paragraph you make a major factual error that even a cursory attempt at fact-checking would catch:
"An Asian-American sportscaster named Robert Lee was pulled from broadcasting a University of Virginia football game so as not to offend viewers."
If you can find a young person in your office, ask them to explain "Google" to you. Then, you can "Google" why Robert Lee was moved off the UV game!
You're welcome!
I assume you're new to journalism, since in the first paragraph you make a major factual error that even a cursory attempt at fact-checking would catch:
"An Asian-American sportscaster named Robert Lee was pulled from broadcasting a University of Virginia football game so as not to offend viewers."
If you can find a young person in your office, ask them to explain "Google" to you. Then, you can "Google" why Robert Lee was moved off the UV game!
You're welcome!
1
Tearing down statutes is not policy. Building America is. Protest against Nazis, promote Building America. Dems need to be for something.
1
This is what Americans do. This country wouldn't know a teachable moment if it smacked us in the face - twice. Taking down these statutes are like wearing pink ribbons to show awareness of breast cancer. Or yellow ribbons to support the troops (remember those?). You can take down all of the offending statues you want and America will learn nothing! White supremacy in America is institutional, a part of the American psyche. It goes far beyond "those people" marching with neo-Nazi or KKK hate signs. If America is truly ready to deal with its ugly history
then put in the hard work. Educate yourselves. Educate our children.
Implement emancipatory and critical pedagogies in the educational system. Empower ALL students to help themselves analyze cultures and experiences other than their own. This will help to reduce social inequality and injustices in our classrooms, in and out of our communities, in the country and maybe even in the world. Until we start at the beginning, enabling ALL children to find their voices, understand histories other than the dominant white/European history, and explore alternative ways of thinking about each other -- we will continue to do what America does -- nothing, really.
then put in the hard work. Educate yourselves. Educate our children.
Implement emancipatory and critical pedagogies in the educational system. Empower ALL students to help themselves analyze cultures and experiences other than their own. This will help to reduce social inequality and injustices in our classrooms, in and out of our communities, in the country and maybe even in the world. Until we start at the beginning, enabling ALL children to find their voices, understand histories other than the dominant white/European history, and explore alternative ways of thinking about each other -- we will continue to do what America does -- nothing, really.
2
Is Amerika's dirty secret that
George Washington and Thomas Jefferson
fought for the Virginian side during the war.
GW still rides proudly across the
Great Seal of the Confederate States of Amerika
George Washington and Thomas Jefferson
fought for the Virginian side during the war.
GW still rides proudly across the
Great Seal of the Confederate States of Amerika
1
Excuse me, Sir, but I think you dropped your MENSA card.
George Washington DIED in 1797. Thomas Jefferson died in 1809. The Civil War started in 1861.
I doubt that either of them "fought for the Virginian side during the war."
George Washington DIED in 1797. Thomas Jefferson died in 1809. The Civil War started in 1861.
I doubt that either of them "fought for the Virginian side during the war."
2
As I read about the chaos, ostensibly caused by monuments and statues, and especially the preposterous cancellation of the appearance of Mr. Lee (the broadcaster), I am struck by how closely this mass hysteria tracks Shakespeare:
Cinna the poet: Truly, my name is Cinna.
First Citizen: Tear him to pieces; he's a conspirator.
Cinna the poet: I am Cinna the poet, I am Cinna the poet.
Fourth Citizen: Tear him for his bad verses, tear him for his bad verses.
Cinna the poet: I am not Cinna the conspirator.
Fourth Citizen: It is no matter, his name's Cinna; pluck but his name out of his heart, and turn him going.
William Shakespeare, 'Julius Caesar', Act III, Scene 3
Cinna the poet: Truly, my name is Cinna.
First Citizen: Tear him to pieces; he's a conspirator.
Cinna the poet: I am Cinna the poet, I am Cinna the poet.
Fourth Citizen: Tear him for his bad verses, tear him for his bad verses.
Cinna the poet: I am not Cinna the conspirator.
Fourth Citizen: It is no matter, his name's Cinna; pluck but his name out of his heart, and turn him going.
William Shakespeare, 'Julius Caesar', Act III, Scene 3
12
How to gurantee we lose in 2018, a beginners guide to seeming unreasonable and alienate voters.
65
First they came for the Robert E. Lee statue, and I said nothing.
Then they came for the Christopher Columbus statue, and I was silent.
Then they came for the statue of the little girl holding a flower because it offensive. And still I was silent, fearful of offending those who use offense as a political weapon.
And then I voted for Donald Trump.
Then they came for the Christopher Columbus statue, and I was silent.
Then they came for the statue of the little girl holding a flower because it offensive. And still I was silent, fearful of offending those who use offense as a political weapon.
And then I voted for Donald Trump.
49
@Muezzin
Exactly!
This is precisely the trap that Democrats are allowing themselves to fall into, and Trump is playing them perfectly. No matter how awful a Trump presidency turns out to be, unless the Democrat Party begins to distance itself from the more rabid of the monument-and-free-speech-hating SJW crowd within it, it's going to get hammered at the polls by moderate voters who are more turned off by the seemingly bottomless well of offense and self-righteousness that these cultural warriors seem to have than by the relentless incompetence of Trump.
Exactly!
This is precisely the trap that Democrats are allowing themselves to fall into, and Trump is playing them perfectly. No matter how awful a Trump presidency turns out to be, unless the Democrat Party begins to distance itself from the more rabid of the monument-and-free-speech-hating SJW crowd within it, it's going to get hammered at the polls by moderate voters who are more turned off by the seemingly bottomless well of offense and self-righteousness that these cultural warriors seem to have than by the relentless incompetence of Trump.
25
Let's move Confederate statues to battlefields, museums and graveyards. And stop there.
Washington and Jefferson were slaveholders. FDR interned the Japanese, Teddy Roosevelt was an imperialist, Lincoln was a racist who wanted to free slaves and then send them to Liberia, etc etc. Nobody's perfect. We'll end up with no statues or monuments at all at this rate.
The Confederates were unambiguous traitors. For that reason alone, they should not be honored although having statues in places that are about war, history or death seems appropriate because that is all they were about.
Washington and Jefferson were slaveholders. FDR interned the Japanese, Teddy Roosevelt was an imperialist, Lincoln was a racist who wanted to free slaves and then send them to Liberia, etc etc. Nobody's perfect. We'll end up with no statues or monuments at all at this rate.
The Confederates were unambiguous traitors. For that reason alone, they should not be honored although having statues in places that are about war, history or death seems appropriate because that is all they were about.
Funny story. The man you are paraphrasing, Martin Neimoller, was a Lutheran priest, but before that, during WWI, he was an exceptionally successful U-Boat officer, TWICE responsible for sinking vessels where more than 1,000 people were killed, with an estimated final body count approaching 5,000.
What most people don't realize is that Neimoller actually said his famous saying (didn't complain when the Nazis came for the Socialists, Communists, or Jews, and then nobody was left when they came for him) REALLY was seized by the Nazis, and paid for his lack of action by having to survive FOUR YEARS in two separate concentration camps.
I suspect that, if more people had to actually pay like THAT, for their actions (or inaction), we'd be a much better nation.
What most people don't realize is that Neimoller actually said his famous saying (didn't complain when the Nazis came for the Socialists, Communists, or Jews, and then nobody was left when they came for him) REALLY was seized by the Nazis, and paid for his lack of action by having to survive FOUR YEARS in two separate concentration camps.
I suspect that, if more people had to actually pay like THAT, for their actions (or inaction), we'd be a much better nation.
1
I find it just astonishing that people are expending so much effort and political capital on the monuments issue. Even if it is right on principle, it accomplishes nothing substantial other than to convince rural and Southern whites, whose economic prospects have been battered by changes in the world economy far beyond their control, that their entire culture and way of life are under siege as well. It fuels their sense of resentment, which has in large part given Republicans near total control of local government in the vast majority of the states. At the same time, it dilutes support for substantive issues such as voting rights, from otherwise sympathetic urban professionals and other moderates who now wonder whether it is just confrontation for the sake of confrontation.
20
This is nothing new. The Democratic Party long ago dismissed rural and working class whites as nothing but deplorables. The Dems are so blinded by ideology that they are incapable of doing the simplest electoral arithmetic, bearing complete responsibility for our country's lurch to the right and all it will cost us.
13
I suppose there are a few people (including most if not all black people) who might think it's a good thing to downgrade racist symbols by removing them from places of honor to more appropriate locations such as museums, battlefields and graveyards, thus communicating that these statues belong to history and to death, not to the present and to life.
22
Today's mavens of egotism will shortly erect their symbols of of "glory" to their own narcissism and contrived world outlook.
1
Obviously everyone has flaws. What some people can't seem to grasp is that monuments to flawed people are perfectly fine as long as they are being honored despite their flaws, not because of them. They can be honored for the good and positive things they did despite being flawed, like Washington and Jefferson. Statues to Lee and the Confederacy clearly don't fit this. Lee was an amazing general who used those skills to commit treason committed for the purpose of preserving slavery. Confederate monuments, whether to the generals of the secessionist government are that, monuments to traitors and to treason for the purpose of preserving slavery. Many of those trying to defend confederate monuments do so by calling it a "noble" cause. The confederacy was an abomination and its memory should be condemned in museums and history books, not glorified with monuments in public places.
80
@Vinny,
Your post belies your ignorance of history, and also highlights the dangers of judging HISTORY through the rose lenses of current viewpoints.
Robert E. Lee was one of America's great generals, in 1860, and Lincoln actually offered him command of the Union armies, prior to the outbreak of open hostilities. Lee's letter to Lincoln in response is extant, and can be read by all. In it, he clearly stated that, as most people, in 1860, Lee identified with his state, first, and the Union second, so with a heavy heart, in spite of the honor that Lincoln offered to bestow on him, Lee would be going as Virginia went.
Lee wasn't an ideologue. He was a Virginian, and Virginia seceded. Unfortunately for the Union, he was also an excellent general, and caused the North much harm, usually while outnumbered.
Your post belies your ignorance of history, and also highlights the dangers of judging HISTORY through the rose lenses of current viewpoints.
Robert E. Lee was one of America's great generals, in 1860, and Lincoln actually offered him command of the Union armies, prior to the outbreak of open hostilities. Lee's letter to Lincoln in response is extant, and can be read by all. In it, he clearly stated that, as most people, in 1860, Lee identified with his state, first, and the Union second, so with a heavy heart, in spite of the honor that Lincoln offered to bestow on him, Lee would be going as Virginia went.
Lee wasn't an ideologue. He was a Virginian, and Virginia seceded. Unfortunately for the Union, he was also an excellent general, and caused the North much harm, usually while outnumbered.
8
Robert E. Lee's home state was Virginia. His home, family, relatives, and life long friends lived there. Isn't it so easy to Monday morning quarterback saying he was a traitor for not having waged war on them, burned it to the ground and killed them all?
He was the most decorated soldier and premier general in American history; a lover and patriot of America. He was made the head of the U.S. Military Academy at West Point. So revered he was asked to lead all of America's forces for the Union. It was an impossible situation for him.
He was the most decorated soldier and premier general in American history; a lover and patriot of America. He was made the head of the U.S. Military Academy at West Point. So revered he was asked to lead all of America's forces for the Union. It was an impossible situation for him.
5
George Washington was a traitor too (to the British). The difference is he won!
2
All of this about statues is stirring things up in a useless way. Were I to run the removal of statues that commemorate oppressive individuals who treated others in a cruel and unfair manner, I'd wait and redirect the focus to the actual oppression we are beginning to whiff coming our way.
These symbols are offensive, but they are metal, stone and concrete. There are actual humans who would do harm to the well being of the American citizenry and their rights, right now, and they must be stopped. Place the focus on what they say and do, then, one cold winter's night, move statuary away from court houses and public parks to cemeteries, museums or into storage.
Skirt this deflection from what harms our interest in upholding the rights guaranteed to those who live in this country.
I'd also stop cleaning them off and let the pigeons do their worst, then comes the freezing winter's night when they can be spirited away.....
We have other fish to fry. This administration is clearly failing and we need to give it a hefty push long before the point at which we will not recover.
These symbols are offensive, but they are metal, stone and concrete. There are actual humans who would do harm to the well being of the American citizenry and their rights, right now, and they must be stopped. Place the focus on what they say and do, then, one cold winter's night, move statuary away from court houses and public parks to cemeteries, museums or into storage.
Skirt this deflection from what harms our interest in upholding the rights guaranteed to those who live in this country.
I'd also stop cleaning them off and let the pigeons do their worst, then comes the freezing winter's night when they can be spirited away.....
We have other fish to fry. This administration is clearly failing and we need to give it a hefty push long before the point at which we will not recover.
3
The real problem is that this sort of hysteria is at the heart of the Democratic Party. If the DNC was a living, breathing entity, it would still have a heart of metal, stone, and concrete.
6
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2017/08/25/trump-winning-statue-w...
Go for it liberals and go down in flames. 2/3s of America is against taking down statues. Why don't you get an agenda that helps the middle class, instead of engaging in hysteria about meaningful things
Go for it liberals and go down in flames. 2/3s of America is against taking down statues. Why don't you get an agenda that helps the middle class, instead of engaging in hysteria about meaningful things
33
And 58% of the American people support legal abortion. A majority of Americans favor tighter gun laws and oppose the Citizen's United Supreme Court ruling. The people who run this country couldn't care less what "the people" want or need. They are just serfs to the ruling class.
My Dear Left,
I'm generally on your side. I'd like to see the US a Social Democracy like that of Nordic countries.
The old Confederate statues I'm not fond of and would not mind seeing gone.
But please, get some sanity and stop there and work on truly important things such as economic justice, global heating, nuclear war and infrastructure.
You are aiding and abetting the enemy by pursuing ideological purity and thought-crimes.
I'm generally on your side. I'd like to see the US a Social Democracy like that of Nordic countries.
The old Confederate statues I'm not fond of and would not mind seeing gone.
But please, get some sanity and stop there and work on truly important things such as economic justice, global heating, nuclear war and infrastructure.
You are aiding and abetting the enemy by pursuing ideological purity and thought-crimes.
15
How is this different than what the Taliban are doing to historical sites all over the Middle East? Have we become a culture that destroys its own heritage? Most cultures defend their culture from foreign invaders, we are acting on their behalf.
43
Begala is right. This is a trap and Trump appears to have outsmarted the Left and its media allies once again. Charlottesville was not about some lousy statue. Very bad people marched on that city to terrorize black people and their allies and killed one of them. As soon as this shifted to a debate about tearing down history, Trump and even the KKK got a pass. It's with irony that the image of the leftist mob in North Carolina is of ripping down not one of these traitor generals like Lee but a statue simply to the war dead. That mob is not a sympathetic image. At all.
13
How boring our cities would be if all monuments and statues stood for nothing, represented nothing, expressed no unpopular opinions. Think about it..............
130
Aren't unpopular opinions supposed to be protected by the 1st Amendment? If free speech doesn't offend someone, it is not free.
Good point, BUT, that is what art galleries are for. Governments need to be politically and morally correct, not so galleries. Controversial gallery displays stimulate intellectual debate over the merits of the work. Controversial public displays stimulate violence and hatred like in Charlottsville, and soon Richmond.
The subjugation of one race by another is hardly an 'unpopular opinion'.
1
As far as I'm concerned, current knowledge about anyone who did anything hideous or heinous in the past, and I mean anyone, I don't care who they are, that knowledge trumps (bad use of the word I'm sure) any statues or pretend honorifics. And that includes mass murderer, Christopher Columbus. And that means renaming Columbus Circle.
Of course, this is only in my particular universe. I know it will never happen.
Of course, this is only in my particular universe. I know it will never happen.
Your universe is perched on a very slippery slope.
Shall we rename FDR Drive, or the FDR Bridge, and tear-down all of his statues, because of how his executive order affected hundreds of thousands of people of Japanese descent, including tens of thousands that were US citizens?
Shall we rename FDR Drive, or the FDR Bridge, and tear-down all of his statues, because of how his executive order affected hundreds of thousands of people of Japanese descent, including tens of thousands that were US citizens?
3
For Pete's sake, STOP THE MADNESS!!
17
Worry less about statues to take down and more about statues to put up.
Where is there a statue recognizing the plight of African slaves in American history prominently situated in DC? The Trail of Tears?
Where is the statue of Francis Perkins?
Where is the statue to Andre Cailloux?
Where is the statue for Harvey Milk?
Where is the statue for Dorothea Dix?
What about Mother Jones?
Can't Ansel Adams or John Muir get a statue? Harriet Hemenway?
Doesn't Sally Ride deserve a statue?
Don't like Nazis? How about a statute honoring the American lawyers who prosecuted Nazis in Nuremberg?
Why not pair every Lee statue with one honoring the Freedman's Bureau?
Where is there a statue recognizing the plight of African slaves in American history prominently situated in DC? The Trail of Tears?
Where is the statue of Francis Perkins?
Where is the statue to Andre Cailloux?
Where is the statue for Harvey Milk?
Where is the statue for Dorothea Dix?
What about Mother Jones?
Can't Ansel Adams or John Muir get a statue? Harriet Hemenway?
Doesn't Sally Ride deserve a statue?
Don't like Nazis? How about a statute honoring the American lawyers who prosecuted Nazis in Nuremberg?
Why not pair every Lee statue with one honoring the Freedman's Bureau?
2
All these little SJWs running around screaming "racism" and seeking to tear down historical monuments remind me of the young Maoists of the 1960s Chinese Cultural Revolution. We are not far removed from those revolutionaries who imprisoned and killed anyone that they deemed an enemy of the State. Some progress...
80
SoundnFury:
This paralleling the Cultural Revolution so well its getting scary. The only difference is that in the US we have a majority of the population, regardless of their color/race/etc, that will say NO to the excesses that came about in China.
If we stopped listening to extremes on both ends of the spectrum we will find out that we have more things in common than not. We just have to stop listening to those that seek to divide us.
This paralleling the Cultural Revolution so well its getting scary. The only difference is that in the US we have a majority of the population, regardless of their color/race/etc, that will say NO to the excesses that came about in China.
If we stopped listening to extremes on both ends of the spectrum we will find out that we have more things in common than not. We just have to stop listening to those that seek to divide us.
Political correctness gone mad...
As one commentator put it recently this is "The Silliest Generation..."
Arrogance and ignorance are the order of the day.
As one commentator put it recently this is "The Silliest Generation..."
Arrogance and ignorance are the order of the day.
32
Republicans shout "squirrel" and Democrats lunge forward.
This, in a nutshell, is why I refuse to join the Democratic party.
This, in a nutshell, is why I refuse to join the Democratic party.
18
No doubt the democrats would prefer to ignore FDR's internment of 120,00 US citizens of Japanese ancestry - an act of pure racism
I'm a dyed in the wool Yankee and consider the confederates traitors who caused incredible pain to this country..Nevertheless I recognize that the lost cause is and its leaders and troops and battles are revered by millions of people all over the world. Americans are not the sorts of people who will allow their national myths to be attacked by a few liberal and college students.
The democrats never seem to learn. They lost the working man through their politics of identity - failing to notice that conferring benefits on a minority while ignoring the pain of the majority did not work will not work.
I'm a dyed in the wool Yankee and consider the confederates traitors who caused incredible pain to this country..Nevertheless I recognize that the lost cause is and its leaders and troops and battles are revered by millions of people all over the world. Americans are not the sorts of people who will allow their national myths to be attacked by a few liberal and college students.
The democrats never seem to learn. They lost the working man through their politics of identity - failing to notice that conferring benefits on a minority while ignoring the pain of the majority did not work will not work.
29
There would not be contraversey, if people believed in equality for all. The fact that there is racism, part and parcel of police brutality, and anti-gay sentiments is the source of the contraversey, period. We can not believe that there is any moral basis for those beliefs, as much as the racists and religous bigots would like to believe. Far too much attention is given to it, however, when none of the attention results in any constructive change action. To believe that the path of white supremacy and anti gay rights leads to the promise land is almost an attempt to deny reality, but that is what people who do not employ critical thinking do all the time. That is what sustains their putrid beliefs. No one has to believe anything they don't want, but to force it on others is not humane. Hey, you don't have to marry a gay person, and you don't have to believe that white people are as smart as black people. You can believe what you want, but when you want to make your belief everyone's, you have really step outside of reality. These type people, in short, making a mess of this country. Let's move on to a better place.
11
By the logic of the protesters the Democrat Party should be torn down. Who enslaved Negroes? Democrats. Who seceded and started a war to preserve slavery? Democrats. Who had Bull Conner as a National Committee member? Democrats. Who had a KKK Grand Kleagle as their Senate Majority Leader? Democrats. What party did most of the people whose statues are being destroyed belong to? Democrats! Who filibustered the Civil Rights legislation? Democrats!
Why should not the Democrat Party dissolve in shame given what they advocate?
Why should not the Democrat Party dissolve in shame given what they advocate?
51
Good points! Except your very last word should be advocated, not advocate!!!
1
Logic? The statue debate is based on emotions.
The resulting polarization allows politicians on both the left and the right to talk about images and ideas that conveniently skirt real issues i.e. unemployment, health care, deficits, immigration, etc. Oh wait, discussion of these issues would require a measure of ... you guessed it ... logic.
The resulting polarization allows politicians on both the left and the right to talk about images and ideas that conveniently skirt real issues i.e. unemployment, health care, deficits, immigration, etc. Oh wait, discussion of these issues would require a measure of ... you guessed it ... logic.
1
There is an issue here about people being all good or all bad. If we think that the thing they are mainly known for was a bad thing (e.g., trying to preserve slavery), probably not a good idea to canonize them. If, on the other hand, we think the person did some good in the world, despite perhaps also doing some terrible things, it's a bit more difficult. I don't know where I stand on Christopher Columbus.
Tearing down monuments and memorials is a mistake. A greater mistake is excusing and rationalizing it by condemning a statue, structure, work of art, street or any other man-made object as a "symbol of hate" based on one's own selfish, limited context.
I have relatives who fought against real Nazis in WW2. They were also descendants of Confederate soldiers who fought and died under the command of R. E. Lee. Those ancestors were poor, owned no slaves, and whose reasons for fighting for the Confederacy were probably more complex than those ascribed to them in 2017. Regardless, those WW2 vets respected their ancestors, understood the wrong of slavery, and put their lives on the line in combat for the United States of America.
Those Confederate monuments and memorials -- along with those of the Union -- were a part the process of national reunion. Today's cultural vendetta, if excused and allowed to continue, will purge far more than dead Confederates. It will promote greater division.
I have relatives who fought against real Nazis in WW2. They were also descendants of Confederate soldiers who fought and died under the command of R. E. Lee. Those ancestors were poor, owned no slaves, and whose reasons for fighting for the Confederacy were probably more complex than those ascribed to them in 2017. Regardless, those WW2 vets respected their ancestors, understood the wrong of slavery, and put their lives on the line in combat for the United States of America.
Those Confederate monuments and memorials -- along with those of the Union -- were a part the process of national reunion. Today's cultural vendetta, if excused and allowed to continue, will purge far more than dead Confederates. It will promote greater division.
37
Every statue-destroying idiot should be forcibly taken to see the Gettysburg National Battlefield -- the entire CITY is now a necropolis, dedicated to the war dead ON BOTH SIDES. It is chock full of so much magnificent statuary, of both sides, that you can hardly count it all.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with "putting down" the losers, nor ignoring the abomination of slavery -- but of a horrific Civil War in which 750,000 men lost their lives.
The left's blindness to history is their Achilles heel and it will undo all the good they assume they wish to do.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with "putting down" the losers, nor ignoring the abomination of slavery -- but of a horrific Civil War in which 750,000 men lost their lives.
The left's blindness to history is their Achilles heel and it will undo all the good they assume they wish to do.
15
To me the key question is why the monument was put there, which tells you what it celebrates. The problem with most confederate monuments is that they were put up during Jim Crow and pro-segregation days to make it clear who was in power (and who was not). My guess is most Columbus monuments were put up to celebrate discovery, not the wiping out of native populations. With respect to other monuments, let's get some context on their history. For those that celebrate good things through a controversial person, I'd just add some plaques to provide proper historical context.
110
That is YOUR interpretation of why Civil War statues were erected, but the PEOPLE who put them up felt they were commemorating their history and the enormous price paid in blood and young lives by the Civil War.
If someone wanted to oppress black people 100 years ago....they could use firehoses and attack dogs, Jim Crow laws, segregated public buildings and drinking fountains and buses -- lynchings! Why spend tens of thousands of dollars to cast a huge bronze statue? that just makes NO economic sense whatsoever.
If someone wanted to oppress black people 100 years ago....they could use firehoses and attack dogs, Jim Crow laws, segregated public buildings and drinking fountains and buses -- lynchings! Why spend tens of thousands of dollars to cast a huge bronze statue? that just makes NO economic sense whatsoever.
6
For the record, Columbus did NOT "discover" America, anymore than I can "discover" your back yard by blindly stumbling upon it. There were people already here. This needs to be cleared up in schools. Whether or not statues memorialize the "discovery", he did his best to kill off the people already here.
Queen Isabella of Spain, who financed the Columbus voyage of discovery refused to have any truck with slavery in the New World. She considered the Native People of South America to be free people under the rule of the Spanish Crown.
These attacks on statues illustrate very well the absurdity of the lefty ideology. In the past 50 years the left has redefined bigot to mean anyone who says something that someone else "claims" is bigotry. So simple statements of fact have become bigotry.
But that ideology has been applied inconsistently and hypocritically. So now we have social justice warriors mindlessly vandalizing stutues that represent American history and are of particular importance to various people. The destruction of Christopher Columbus statues is an assault on Italian-Americans.
Now the left should apply the same standard it did in Charlottesville and denounce the anti-Italianism.
But that ideology has been applied inconsistently and hypocritically. So now we have social justice warriors mindlessly vandalizing stutues that represent American history and are of particular importance to various people. The destruction of Christopher Columbus statues is an assault on Italian-Americans.
Now the left should apply the same standard it did in Charlottesville and denounce the anti-Italianism.
15
Clearly all the Southern states that were on the South's side in the Civil War need to be renamed. Anyone sensitive to slavery will be harmed if they have to visit Virginia, South Carolina, Mississippi, etc. Or perhaps just not visit or live in those states. All the California missions need to be torn down because the Catholic missionaries exploited and enslaved the Indians. And mosques as well because of the slavery history of the religion. On and on until there is not history. Students will likely love it because there will be no need for history courses going forward unless the politicians choose to write it for their own purposes.
39
False equivalence and deflection on display. Typical.
2
You know, the key ingredient in satire is that your point is supposed to be funny and also subtly make a convincing argument. Instead, you just sound like a petulant child.
2
Way to distort reality with sophist nonsense. Monuments should be placed in proper historical context. That isn't erasing history as you so falsely claim but making it more reflective of reality. Leaving up monuments to traitors that glorify them is part of the reason race relations in the country remain poor.
3
If the New york times is writing about the Confederate statues who would be more fair to include, even elaborate, on the brutal history of Columbus or more about fascist dictator, etc. This article mentioned the streets and statues of Columbus but not a tribe or place that Columbus enslaved and murdered Natives.. It does a very poor job of relaying the betrayal Natives feel which is justified.
My ancestors arrived in the U.S. less than 70 years ago, long after Columbus was dead and slavery ended. They were dirt poor, uneducated immigrants, and yet we have prospered greatly. No one in my white family ever owned slaves or exploited American Indians. I don’t for a second condone slavery, but I feel ZERO responsibility for it and have and no guilt whatsoever over its ramifications. As for the Indians, mankind has been fighting over land since the beginning of time. In such cases, it’s really this simple -- might makes right. Hence, as with slavery, I feel neither responsibility for nor guilt over the Indians inability to protect what they claimed was theirs. To the victor, goes the spoils, period!
6
The debate about symbols should not distract from the real issues of racism–latent and overt–in America. Events in Charlottesville shined a bright light on those Confederate statues erected as symbols of racism when states were enacting Jim Crow laws and during the Civil Rights movement. Removing them does not deny our history but rather makes a statement that symbols of treason and support of slavery should not have a place of honor in public spaces. They are better placed in museums where their construction can be put in context.
Debating the relevance of other potentially racist symbols should not divert us from understanding and addressing the reality of racism that persists. Don't allow Trump to turn the debate from the alarming rise of radical racist elements to an obsession with symbolism and political correctness.
For example, if sportscaster Robert Lee had been pulled from broadcasting a UVA football game for cause that would be one thing, but because he shared the same name as the Confederate general–really? Better to know that Faneuil Hall was built with profits from the slave trade than to change its name and deny its history. Better to understand the devastating effects that Columbus’ discovery of the Americas had on native peoples than to pretend his discovery was not a turning point in our history. Better we should understand our history so that we do not repeat the mistakes of the past and so that we can improve the conditions of our present and future.
Debating the relevance of other potentially racist symbols should not divert us from understanding and addressing the reality of racism that persists. Don't allow Trump to turn the debate from the alarming rise of radical racist elements to an obsession with symbolism and political correctness.
For example, if sportscaster Robert Lee had been pulled from broadcasting a UVA football game for cause that would be one thing, but because he shared the same name as the Confederate general–really? Better to know that Faneuil Hall was built with profits from the slave trade than to change its name and deny its history. Better to understand the devastating effects that Columbus’ discovery of the Americas had on native peoples than to pretend his discovery was not a turning point in our history. Better we should understand our history so that we do not repeat the mistakes of the past and so that we can improve the conditions of our present and future.
6
wow, just wow.... tearing down historical monuments instead of asking people to become educated in how to see things in context?!? symbols over substance again. hope it gets them exactly what they deserve - NOTHING
39
We cannot trust any ideology or agenda that has no limiting principle.
For example, those who want more government must declare just how much of GDP government should take.
Likewise, if we're to take down statues, declare which ones, and why. A few quotes in the article show that Democrats see the challenge and reductio ad absurdum..
In fact, Charles Barkely was attacked for saying there are more important issues to address than statues.
Alas, there are always some who refuse all limits on their agenda.
For example, those who want more government must declare just how much of GDP government should take.
Likewise, if we're to take down statues, declare which ones, and why. A few quotes in the article show that Democrats see the challenge and reductio ad absurdum..
In fact, Charles Barkely was attacked for saying there are more important issues to address than statues.
Alas, there are always some who refuse all limits on their agenda.
6
Monuments tend to glorify war and use of force. As a part of history, the negative side never gets explained. All of this removal could be avoided by the use of plaques stating what happened such as "Secessionist General of American Civil War". We now honor his courage and accept defeat as the will of our Creator to correct a wrong, recognizing that even at the time this monument was erected (date) it was to suppress the former slave population through power symbols and Jim Crow Laws. On the other side a plaque might read "Name, Civil War General on Union Side. Erected as a glorification of war after a period of great loss of life and the near destruction of a young nation. We honor that he defended unity. LET WISDOM HENCEFORTH PREVAIL." The proper use of plaques would present the actual history and perhaps educate the people seeing the monument. How many people would know that the Balbo monument was given to Chicago by Mussolini? Half the population doesn't even know what facism is or who either Balbo or Mussolini was, but it would be educational to explain it. Leave 'em up and explain them.
52
You sort of acknowledge that war is sometimes necessary. Like WW2. If we had unilaterally declared 'war dead' you would be speaking & writing Japanese now. I would speak German. Millions of Americans would be dead, millions more never born. English would be a dead language, because anyone caught speaking it would have been immediately shot. All English language books burned. All religious books burned. All types of clergymen, executed. All school teachers executed. All museums reworked to prove their superiority, & our inferiority. The Capitol & White House destroyed. People separated by color. Oh, Hitler didn't trust the kkk, American nazis, & the white inferiorcists. They would work to destroy their own country so would be suspect when he took 1/2 of ours. We would all be slaves. On both sides of the Mississippi. German one side, Japanese on the other. All Asians in the west destroyed as being disloyal to the ruling Japanese. Japanese in internment camps destroyed. Same in the east with the Germans. If already adult & schooled in needed jobs, that person would be taken to Germany, not families, they would be thrown in with the rest doing menial work. No choice. In anything. Only schooling would be in our new language. Whichever.
They had already decided on that. Japan would get the west because it had more need of minerals, metals, & food. From the east Germany would, after we were gone, soon, have more room for Germans.Eastern Europe would be cleared for German farmers.
They had already decided on that. Japan would get the west because it had more need of minerals, metals, & food. From the east Germany would, after we were gone, soon, have more room for Germans.Eastern Europe would be cleared for German farmers.
2
Adding plaques would be a great idea, except that they would be greatly overshadowed by the HUGE imposing monument, some you even have to drive around. Plaques are easier defaced. Many Black historical sites are memorialized by plaques only and are missed by many.
Speak with young people. What becomes apparent nearly instantly is the obverse of what you've just claimed --- their view of the Unites States is nearly entirely negative, sculpted over the decades by profs and assistant profs snuggled into the humanities of our higher institutions. Hey -- we're not perfect by a long shot but neither is any place on earth and we don't want to get into the specifics there, do we? Let's teach BOTH sides and let students make up their own minds. AND, btw, let's get back to teaching them to think independently, and away from groupthink that bullies non-participants. Yes, there's a lot that needs to be fixed if we're to remain a free country in the true sense of the word.
1
Interesting
"The Duke of York, who later became King James II of England (and James VII of Scotland), created Britain’s greatest slave empire known as the Royal African Company, which transported between 90,000 and 100,000 African slaves to the Caribbean and American colonies between 1672 and 1689." Daily Caller
I demand that the racist names be struck and replaced with Gotham and Gotham City
"The Duke of York, who later became King James II of England (and James VII of Scotland), created Britain’s greatest slave empire known as the Royal African Company, which transported between 90,000 and 100,000 African slaves to the Caribbean and American colonies between 1672 and 1689." Daily Caller
I demand that the racist names be struck and replaced with Gotham and Gotham City
8
I thought Cromwell rewarded Penn with his woods after he claimed Port Royal for the English slave trade. So, Uncle Oliver is NOT the bearer of that sinful practice? Then how did Uncle Claypool make all that money?
@Abby,
Those two facts are not mutually-exclusive. Here's a shock: You are both factually correct. Your being correct does not make @bellyache incorrect.
Those two facts are not mutually-exclusive. Here's a shock: You are both factually correct. Your being correct does not make @bellyache incorrect.
This is the kind of issue that has kept the Dems out of power and will continue to do so. It will be the main issue for moderates and conservatives to rally round not Trump in the mid terms. WAKE UP DEMS!
13
Let's not forget statues, bridges, buildings, etc named after those Southern Democrat senators who for years blocked civil rights legislation -- Fulbright, Byrd, etc.....What;s good for the goose is good for gander, right?
8
You need to educate yourself. Byrd became a champion of Civil Rights.
Vinny, he was in the KKK
They might change Columbus Circle to Verrazano Circle so that we have a monument to victims of cannibalism.
6
I suggest those who are offended by such imagery, stop dealing with US currency. After all, what is US currency but slips of paper depicting white male slaveowners?
18
I would be in favor a statue of Robert E. Lee if it more accurately represented his life's work - in one hand he should be firing a gun at a young Union boy soldier, in the other holding a chain restraining a family of slaves, and grinding the face of a black man in the dirt with his jackboot. Placing the word "traitor to his country" somewhere would also not be amiss.
78
Lets Not forget Shermans armies raping and pillaging defenseless southern cities in their march to the sea. Such unbridled heroism to use women and children as cannon fodder. Reminiscent of our own gang of thugs and drones over seas.
5
OK by me, but what does that have to do with the question of Lee's statues?
Speaking of traitors, FDR enslaved 200,000 Japanese Americans during WW2. How about pictures of his intern camps along with his monuments?
4
Just to be clear, the Colombo in Pittston PA is a monument to local mob rule. I'm talking Mafia families founding their organization's legitimacy in Italian history. So investigate the hate that made these monuments carefully...they don't like facsists since Benito chased the Andaloros out of Sicily in a show trial over who's the boss.
3
The NYTs covered that one, the trial of the Queen of Gangi. Might be stuck up on the Premium shelf. 1924.
As usual some of the comments show how ignorant some people about our history.
First, the statues to confederate generals were erected by and large during the 40's, 50's to send a strong and hateful message to any one who would dare to want to vote or have equality!
Also, why have we put up statues to Frank Rizzo? Or Columbus? Columbus started the rape, pillage and stealing the lands of Native Americans, a bloody horrific history ....why would anyone think of Columbus as a hero?! Rizzo, was a hero to those who wanted Philly...white. Disgusting.
And, no one has mentioned taking, Washington and Jefferson, down. They were our Founding Fathers, responsible for the brilliant document we call the, Constitution. Their statues are very appropriate, even though, yes, they owned slaves. We don't learn history from statues, we read about history.
Some statues ar being treated as if they are sacred...that's idolatry!
First, the statues to confederate generals were erected by and large during the 40's, 50's to send a strong and hateful message to any one who would dare to want to vote or have equality!
Also, why have we put up statues to Frank Rizzo? Or Columbus? Columbus started the rape, pillage and stealing the lands of Native Americans, a bloody horrific history ....why would anyone think of Columbus as a hero?! Rizzo, was a hero to those who wanted Philly...white. Disgusting.
And, no one has mentioned taking, Washington and Jefferson, down. They were our Founding Fathers, responsible for the brilliant document we call the, Constitution. Their statues are very appropriate, even though, yes, they owned slaves. We don't learn history from statues, we read about history.
Some statues ar being treated as if they are sacred...that's idolatry!
5
Yeah no one called for removing Washington or Jefferson:
http://insider.foxnews.com/2017/08/17/washington-jefferson-lee-monuments...
http://insider.foxnews.com/2017/08/17/washington-jefferson-lee-monuments...
No one has mentioned taking down George Washington's statue?
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2017/08/16/jackson-washington-park-protest-p...
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2017/08/16/jackson-washington-park-protest-p...
Make that the 20's & 30's & I'll agree with you.
No statues got built during the 40's as nothing unnecessary (depending on some bureaucrat) was built during the war & the rationing that continued after it. It's why roads that needed repair then were repaired by bad quality concrete (it wasn't rationed). Meat was still rationed in May of '51. My Mom was in the hospital with double lobar pneumonia & had me prematurely, so it's part of my story. She needed meat, (nutrition didn't come out of bottles so much then), had to provide ration coupons to the hospital. We fed the world for a long time.
No statues got built during the 40's as nothing unnecessary (depending on some bureaucrat) was built during the war & the rationing that continued after it. It's why roads that needed repair then were repaired by bad quality concrete (it wasn't rationed). Meat was still rationed in May of '51. My Mom was in the hospital with double lobar pneumonia & had me prematurely, so it's part of my story. She needed meat, (nutrition didn't come out of bottles so much then), had to provide ration coupons to the hospital. We fed the world for a long time.
2
Okay, things are getting silly. Let's accept that those who've had monuments made to them are imperfect beings. Like most of us, they likely had flaws, prejudices, racist tendencies, etc - but that's not what we remember them for. The difference with the Confederate monuments, is that they were erected with the purpose of intimidating and dividing-to show black Americans that emancipation after the Civil War changed nothing in attitudes, and racist groups like the KKK and the Neo Nazi types use them to coalesce around to further a racist hate filled agenda even into the 21st century....the southern generals were also traitors to the United States.
6
That's just a new "meme of the left" -- nobody would spend a fortune on an elaborate statue just to "intimidate black people" -- when Jim Crow and lynchings worked JUST FINE and cost nothing!
Most black people don't notice these statues have said nothing after 50 years of Civil Rights legislation.
Also: the South was not traitorous nor the generals committing treason, as there were NO LAWS prohibiting leaving the Union at that time.
Today, in 2017, it is California who wishes to secede -- it is on their ballot later this year -- do you call the entire state of California therefore "traitors"? Or is it OK because they are blue, liberal Democrats?
Most black people don't notice these statues have said nothing after 50 years of Civil Rights legislation.
Also: the South was not traitorous nor the generals committing treason, as there were NO LAWS prohibiting leaving the Union at that time.
Today, in 2017, it is California who wishes to secede -- it is on their ballot later this year -- do you call the entire state of California therefore "traitors"? Or is it OK because they are blue, liberal Democrats?
5
My husband asked a question that has kept me pondering. He asked what is different between those who demand the removal of statues and the Taliban who destroyed ancient statues as they took power? And more importantly, why did many (most) of us condemn the Taliban and now support the actions of legislatures and protestors who are doing the same.
16
One difference would be if the American statues were either relocated to different (quasi-) public settings, such as battlefield parks, museums, or Confederate burial grounds--or else auctioned to private buyers, who might choose to display them as they liked on private property.
The Taliban, etc., just destroy.
The Taliban, etc., just destroy.
1
Can you truly not deduce the difference, or is that a rhetorical query?
Taliban destruction is due to interpretation of religious dogma.
Confederate statues and those of Columbus GLORIFY history's villains, people who sought to keep dark-skinned people enslaved forever. The statues don't teach this, they glorify these miscreants. What enlightened person would want to glorify slavers and murderers?
Taliban destruction is due to interpretation of religious dogma.
Confederate statues and those of Columbus GLORIFY history's villains, people who sought to keep dark-skinned people enslaved forever. The statues don't teach this, they glorify these miscreants. What enlightened person would want to glorify slavers and murderers?
1
I think the point is -- Who decides what is evil and good, on what basis, and what action is appropriate. Religious dogma is no more justifiable than politically correct dogma. In no way do I or my husband condone the destructive actions of either the Taliban or the people who enslaved others or viciously stole a homeland from native residents. However, we do support individuals to think deeply before jumping to dogmatic conclusions. Being human is complex and we want that complexity to be considered before acting.
1
I'm a traditionalist conservative married to a progressive liberal, and was recently opining to my wife that the ongoing anti-Confederate purge would ultimately lead exactly to this. But whereas I had thought this would be in a matter of years, it's turned out to be merely days & weeks. The only thing that surprises me is the rapidity of the transition.
"Like Saturn, the Revolution eats its own" indeed.
A l'exemple de Saturne, la révolution dévore ses enfants
"Like Saturn, the Revolution eats its own" indeed.
A l'exemple de Saturne, la révolution dévore ses enfants
18
We're gonna need more black tarps.
2
Going after every controversial statue is overreach. Please don't be the stereotypes that President Trump wants you to be. By all means, move the confederate monuments to museums, but lets focus on the solving more important issues (such as voter suppression, health care, jobs, income inequality, immigration, tackling systemic racism).
6
I ran into a very conservative Republican friend the other day, and was surprised to hear that she, too, has been caught up in the Let's Erase History bandwagon. She argued that no matter how important the historical figure is, and no matter his or her accomplishments, we can't allow persons who lived lives contrary to the values that currently underpin our society –- in particular, she appeared to be interested in those values relating to treatment of women and personal integrity -– to be exalted or commemorated. Toward this end, she told me that she would be demanding that the thoroughfare in our town that's named after Martin Luther King, Jr. be immediately renamed Hank Williams, Jr. Boulevard. (Although I'm not terribly sure Mr. Williams led all that pristine a personal life, either -– she may need to rethink that one.) According to my friend, Dr. King's serial adultery and college plagiarism (documented in David Garrow's Pulitzer Prize-winning biography and elsewhere) disqualifies him as an historical figure that should be commemorated. Good Lord, I thought, is there anyone who these nut cases won't want to remove from history? Perhaps Jimmy Carter? (Although, there was that animal cruelty thing when he hit that rabid bunny with a paddle...)
13
What about Tom Hanks? Everyone loves Tom Hanks. Maybe they can rename the street Tom Hanks Boulevard?
2
@ Forgotten Working Class Stiff
I dunno about Tom Hanks, either. There was that scene in “Philadelphia” in which he responded very emotionally to some aria being played on his stereo, and there were some gay activists who thought that was playing into some rather crude stereotyping –- you know, that all gay men love opera. So, I don't see a Tom Hanks Boulevard or statue happening, either. Much too controversial a figure.
I dunno about Tom Hanks, either. There was that scene in “Philadelphia” in which he responded very emotionally to some aria being played on his stereo, and there were some gay activists who thought that was playing into some rather crude stereotyping –- you know, that all gay men love opera. So, I don't see a Tom Hanks Boulevard or statue happening, either. Much too controversial a figure.
3
Doctor King, who I am convinced has been turning over in his grave for years, promoted the ideas of tolerance, equality, compromise and character. He was a great man who had a dream that is being desecrated.
He and his father were named in honor of Martin Luther who began the Protestant Reformation. This original Martin Luther, however, was a devoted anti-Semite who called for the razing of Jewish synagogues, schools and houses (among other horrible things). Is this sufficient to make MLK, Sr. & Jr. "symbols of hate?" Should their names be removed from monuments and memorials because German Martin Luther's attitude towards Jews offends us? Not to any reasonable person, but hysteria and righteous hatred isn't reasonable.
He and his father were named in honor of Martin Luther who began the Protestant Reformation. This original Martin Luther, however, was a devoted anti-Semite who called for the razing of Jewish synagogues, schools and houses (among other horrible things). Is this sufficient to make MLK, Sr. & Jr. "symbols of hate?" Should their names be removed from monuments and memorials because German Martin Luther's attitude towards Jews offends us? Not to any reasonable person, but hysteria and righteous hatred isn't reasonable.
1
That bigot in Baltimore tearing down the statue of Christopher Columbus proudly recorded his crimes and posted them. He must feel empowered by the lefty media and Hollywood. For too long they downplayed the contributions of Italian-Americans but celebrated negative prejudices (e.g. Sopranos).
The President and the media need to unequivocally denounce these assaults against Italian-Americans.
The President and the media need to unequivocally denounce these assaults against Italian-Americans.
10
Might have been Italian but was working for Spain....The Italians thought the very idea that the world might not be flat was a mortal sin....
Thank you for proving my point about anti-Italianism. It was well known long before Columbus sailed to America that the world was round.
3
Italians of the 15th century....actually more the Pope.
Christopher Columbus!? really!?
“Every human being must be viewed according to what it is good for. For not one of us, no, not one, is perfect. And were we to love none who had imperfection, this world would be a desert for our love.”
-Thomas Jefferson.
“Every human being must be viewed according to what it is good for. For not one of us, no, not one, is perfect. And were we to love none who had imperfection, this world would be a desert for our love.”
-Thomas Jefferson.
12
What if a Chris was crafted to intimidate those who would not bow to Mafia power in Pittston, PA? I'm not joking, that Italian Club was populated by the founding mobsters of the Wyoming Valley. First they controlled the coal mines, but after they blew a hole in one and flooded the entire region's mines, didn't Russell supply the garment industry a new work force?
1
One only needs to read Steve Bannon's parting words in today's article by Timothy Egan, to understand how this nonsense will be used by the right wing. When will progressives understand that destroying symbols and trying to control language does nothing to change minds, it only reinforces how people already think?
38
Apparently never.
3
Paul Bagala is right. It's a right-wing trap. Merely suggesting that it would be appropriate to tear down the statue of Columbus in Manhattan's Columbus Circle would make more votes for Trump. History is not simple.
6
I remember Joe Colombo toyed too much with that cover story and it backfired on him, too.
A right-wing trap? How on earth is the right-wing involved in this at all. People choose to take these positions and it is somehow other people's idea? The Right may capitalize on the insanity here, but it wasn't like they did anything to encourage this. These statues were sitting right where they are for a very long time before Donal Trump became President............and they were all put up by Democrats, one might add.
6
Tell me how this ends? I'll take a guess. The far left activists will continue down this path, and the Democrats won't be able or willing to stop it. They'll just again run someone in 2020 on the "I'm not Trump" platform, because that is all they'll have to offer. Middle America will continue to associate these far left activists and their antics with the Democrats. They'll look at their ballot, say to themselves "Yep, you aren't Trump" and proceed to pull the lever for the Tweeter-in-Chief. Lord help us all.
25
This is a slippery slope. Will we ban statues of Bill Clinton and JFK because they were adulterers? Bill Clinton opposed gay marriage, didn't he? Malcolm X demonized white people but his name is on many streets and even school buildings. Or is this movement only about one specific kind of misbehavior (racism) emanating from only one source (white people)?
108
That seems to be the meme that liberals promote. It seems to be about getting votes, not logic.
4
Ideological extremism on both sides is repugnant. Those on the left who practice extreme identity politics are fomenting the white supremacists on the right. What we need are more moderates and collaboration - on both sides.
6
Mao would be proud of America's growing Cultural Revolution.
31
It's outrageous that Trump and his deplorables' comeback to the suggestion to remove monuments to Confederate traitors is that perhaps we should also remove monuments to George Washington and Thomas Jefferson because they also had slaves. This argument shows they don't get it--- Confederate political and military leaders were traitors to the United States of America- Washington and Jefferson were not- though they were not angles either. And now we see calls to remove monuments to other less than perfect folks. All this is to blur the issue- that monuments to traitors do not belong on PUBLIC properties. If anyone wants monuments to traitors on their personal property- so be it- that's their privilege, but not on public property.
2
Neither CSA President Jefferson Davis nor R. E. Lee was charged with treason. There are various reasons, but one of them was that the victors didn't want to touch the issue of secession, much less treason. If there was ever a time to do so, it was then, and in the reality of 1865, the Union did not want to risk a legal precedent that secession was perfectly legal. Also, Lee (if not Jefferson) was not as hated in the North as he is today.
Here we go. Tear down all the statues that "offend" some group or person is the call to arms today. Taking one statue down will not fix anything that's wrong in the country. Not one person will get a job, find a home, be better educated, or any of a myriad of things that make life in the greatest country on the face of the planet worth living.
The history of this country is fraught with all sorts of ills and yet it survives, looks at what's wrong and strives to correct it. This is what makes us so great. We don't ignore history, we don't only acknowledge through monuments and statues that which is painful to some, but use that knowledge to insure it's not repeated.
But that's not enough for the "antifas", the Black Lives Matter, the various socialist, left wing political opportunists who want to, Taliban & Soviet style, erase all that makes up this country for their preferred view. It's a sad commentary on the education system in this country and the willingness of all who oppose this mass hysteria to stand up to it and say STOP!!!
The history of this country is fraught with all sorts of ills and yet it survives, looks at what's wrong and strives to correct it. This is what makes us so great. We don't ignore history, we don't only acknowledge through monuments and statues that which is painful to some, but use that knowledge to insure it's not repeated.
But that's not enough for the "antifas", the Black Lives Matter, the various socialist, left wing political opportunists who want to, Taliban & Soviet style, erase all that makes up this country for their preferred view. It's a sad commentary on the education system in this country and the willingness of all who oppose this mass hysteria to stand up to it and say STOP!!!
15
No more statues or street names for Harry Truman.
Harry Truman made the following entry in his diary on July 21, 1947 when he discussed the fate of the ship Palistine (sic) which was not allowed to carry Jewish refugees from Europe to Palestine.
“The Jews, I find are very, very selfish. They care not how many Estonians, Latvians, Finns, Poles, Yugoslavs or Greeks get murdered or mistreated as D[isplaced] P[ersons] as long as the Jews get special treatment.
Yet when they have power, physical, financial or political neither Hitler nor Stalin has anything on them for cruelty or mistreatment to the undedog.
Put an underdog on top and it makes no difference whether his name is Russian, Jewish, Negro, Management, Labor, Mormon, or Baptist he goes haywire.”
Harry Truman made the following entry in his diary on July 21, 1947 when he discussed the fate of the ship Palistine (sic) which was not allowed to carry Jewish refugees from Europe to Palestine.
“The Jews, I find are very, very selfish. They care not how many Estonians, Latvians, Finns, Poles, Yugoslavs or Greeks get murdered or mistreated as D[isplaced] P[ersons] as long as the Jews get special treatment.
Yet when they have power, physical, financial or political neither Hitler nor Stalin has anything on them for cruelty or mistreatment to the undedog.
Put an underdog on top and it makes no difference whether his name is Russian, Jewish, Negro, Management, Labor, Mormon, or Baptist he goes haywire.”
7
Except that Truman had the U.S. become the first country to recognize the state of Israel and that was over the objections of many in his cabinet including George Marshall.
Steve: I like and admire Truman -- but NOBODY is perfect and NOBODY says the perfect, politically correct thing EVERY SINGLE TIME.
1
Americans have lost any sense of complexity. Some historic figures, Jefferson Davis and John Calhoun come to mind, are so entirely associated with a disagreeable thing, like slavery, that no monument to them can be agreeable. Others, like George Washington and Columbus, are commemorated for heroic actions, rebelling against unjust authority and founding the first nation based on Enlightenment values, or sailing into the unknown, and their monuments should not be seen as implicating their other, disagreeable associations, slavery and atrocities on indigenous peoples. Still others, like Robert E. Lee, are in the middle: their admirable associations seems tightly bound to their disagreeable ones.
We need to learn to deal with this, not just issue demands. Statements like: offend me; ban them! are what got Trump elected. There are consequences to actions, like when Colin Kaepernick refused to vote for either ‘equally’ racist candidate.
For white and black advocates alike, it should be enough to say: although previously obscure at best, Europe’s culture since the Renaissance is now the dominant culture in the world, and for good reason. The Enlightenment was a magnificent achievement, at least the equal of any in human history. Of course there were abuses; we’re all human and flawed. The current dominance of recent European culture is largely a random event; Europeans are in no way superior to others and we all have an equal say in where we go from here.
We need to learn to deal with this, not just issue demands. Statements like: offend me; ban them! are what got Trump elected. There are consequences to actions, like when Colin Kaepernick refused to vote for either ‘equally’ racist candidate.
For white and black advocates alike, it should be enough to say: although previously obscure at best, Europe’s culture since the Renaissance is now the dominant culture in the world, and for good reason. The Enlightenment was a magnificent achievement, at least the equal of any in human history. Of course there were abuses; we’re all human and flawed. The current dominance of recent European culture is largely a random event; Europeans are in no way superior to others and we all have an equal say in where we go from here.
2
Runaway political correctness has opened a Pandora's Box the left never stopped to consider. Every special interest group seems to have a grievance against some other group or race which compels the aggrieved to demand compensation or satisfaction of some sort. Start removing statues or limiting free speech and pretty soon you will have George Orwell's "1984" in reality. History cannot be wiped clean just because you take personal offense at its symbols. But the Democrats, liberals and progressives are bound and determined to try. It will be fun to watch them trying to shut the Pandora's Box they have so willingly opened wide.
41
This is so similar to what happened to so much medieval art after the Reformation. Anything that looked like it might be an idol was destroyed, including stained class, statues, and paintings. Now we see that action as a tragedy. Do we really want to behave as they did?
30
That could be an interesting point. I have yet to hear anyone defend these confederate statues on their artistic merit. Wait, I guess Trump did - he spoke of "beautiful statues". But he doesn't count, he has such bad taste. This is the one area where pointing out his ridiculous haircut is relevant. And his gold-plated apartments. This is not a guy with a sense of aesthetics.
But I suppose if any of these statues was anything more than ordinary, it might be worth keeping somewhere as art.
But I suppose if any of these statues was anything more than ordinary, it might be worth keeping somewhere as art.
1
I'm from Canada, which is my favourite country in the world, but the USA is clearly the greatest country in the world, and I urge all Americans to learn their history -- not destroy it. Was the USA once governed by slave owners? Yes. Did the USA end slavery? Yes. Not all countries in the world have ended slavery, and in some places, it is actually increasing. Which of those facts is more important?
The past cannot be changed. Even if all the monuments are destroyed, the events of the past remain. Taking down statues does not return life to those who lost theirs. It does, however, destroy opportunity for future generations to learn from the past. Remember what Churchill said about history: "Those who fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it."
The past cannot be changed. Even if all the monuments are destroyed, the events of the past remain. Taking down statues does not return life to those who lost theirs. It does, however, destroy opportunity for future generations to learn from the past. Remember what Churchill said about history: "Those who fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it."
18
Symbolism matters, but let local governments deal with the monuments. The Federal government, as well as those of the States, have more pressing issues to deal with.
1
Our history is is filled with moments of glory. Unfortunately it isn't all glorious. It also has a number of unfortunate truths that behind those glories when viewed through the lens of time. However I'd like to think that the basis of any monument or named place is that the person or people being honored did good for the nation or area where the monument stands. Warring against the country is not doing good.
The difference for me between some of monuments and places mentioned here and the monuments to the Confederate nation and its leaders is that the Confederacy fought against the United States and erecting monuments celebrating those who would war against our country should not stand in public places any more than monuments to those who fought against us in other wars should. That's not "our" heritage, it is the heritage of a defeated nation and ideas though it sat on some of the same ground.
Other than that, I believe that monuments and names should be reviewed on a case-by-case basis rather than a blanket condemnation. Do we leave a statue to Christopher Columbus because he voyaged to the New World opening the door for our country or does it get taken down and put in museum because he voyaged to the New World opening the door to death, illness, and hardship for the native people? Do we rename the District of Columbia and all other such names?
The difference for me between some of monuments and places mentioned here and the monuments to the Confederate nation and its leaders is that the Confederacy fought against the United States and erecting monuments celebrating those who would war against our country should not stand in public places any more than monuments to those who fought against us in other wars should. That's not "our" heritage, it is the heritage of a defeated nation and ideas though it sat on some of the same ground.
Other than that, I believe that monuments and names should be reviewed on a case-by-case basis rather than a blanket condemnation. Do we leave a statue to Christopher Columbus because he voyaged to the New World opening the door for our country or does it get taken down and put in museum because he voyaged to the New World opening the door to death, illness, and hardship for the native people? Do we rename the District of Columbia and all other such names?
2
Like him or not (I don't), Trump's logic was inescapable on this topic. Whitewashing history is the inevitable destination because pretty much every major historical figure did some group wrong at some point or another.
Trump wasn't the first person to reach this conclusion by the way. Way back in the 1970's, people such as Russell Means were already taking aim at monuments like Mt. Rushmore.
Trump wasn't the first person to reach this conclusion by the way. Way back in the 1970's, people such as Russell Means were already taking aim at monuments like Mt. Rushmore.
7
I think you can make a pretty clear distinction on the grounds of what the monument is celebrating. Statues of Washington celebrate his contribution to founding a free country, even if he personally fell short of his own ideals. But these confederate statues celebrate the effort to preserve a slave society. Even if you say these people might have been decent in many ways, they are being celebrated for the thing they did wrong. If you want to actually honor them, tear down these statues, and put up statues celebrating something they did right. In the case of Lee, it could be him signing the articles of surrender, for instance.
1
As expected, given the move towards us being a more intolerant society, is the co-mingling of revisionist history and historical denial.
I would like to know what statues will be permitted to remain and do not cause some person, some cause, some ideology discomfort?
I would like to know what statues will be permitted to remain and do not cause some person, some cause, some ideology discomfort?
1
No more statues or street names for Dwight Eisenhower:
Eisenhower praised Robert E. Lee on television and said that he had a picture of Lee hanging in the oval office.
“in my estimation, Lee was one of the supremely gifted men produced by our Nation. . . . selfless almost to a fault . . . noble as a leader and as a man, and unsullied as I read the pages of our history. From deep conviction I simply say this: a nation of men of Lee’s caliber would be unconquerable in spirit and soul. Indeed, to the degree that present-day American youth will strive to emulate his rare qualities . . . we, in our own time of danger in a divided world, will be strengthened and our love of freedom sustained.”
Eisenhower praised Robert E. Lee on television and said that he had a picture of Lee hanging in the oval office.
“in my estimation, Lee was one of the supremely gifted men produced by our Nation. . . . selfless almost to a fault . . . noble as a leader and as a man, and unsullied as I read the pages of our history. From deep conviction I simply say this: a nation of men of Lee’s caliber would be unconquerable in spirit and soul. Indeed, to the degree that present-day American youth will strive to emulate his rare qualities . . . we, in our own time of danger in a divided world, will be strengthened and our love of freedom sustained.”
9
I didn't watch the debate but that sidewalk marker on Broadway about Petain is one that identifies that he was given a ticker tape parade, which, at one time, was a frequent occurrence for visiting dignitaries. It is there along with plaques identifying all the others so honored. So the plaque is not really honoring him but simply identifying an historical fact.
And Petain wasn't honored by the parade for his being collaborator but rather for leading the French army in World War 1. In contrast, it is unlikely that there would ever have been any statues of Robert E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson, or Jefferson Davis if they hadn't been traitors to the country.
And I wonder how many New Yorkers know that there is a public school in the city named for a Confederate officer. It's the Simon Baruch Middle School, named for the father of the financier Bernard Baruch who was a surgeon in the Confederate army during the war. However, he wasn't honored for this but for his contributions to public health in NYC where he moved after the war.
As to Columbus, he really didn't do anything special because it's generally accepted that the Vikings made it to North America long before he did. Of course, no politician in NYC is hustling for the Scandanavian-American vote so I don't think the statue of Columbus is going anywhere soon.
And Petain wasn't honored by the parade for his being collaborator but rather for leading the French army in World War 1. In contrast, it is unlikely that there would ever have been any statues of Robert E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson, or Jefferson Davis if they hadn't been traitors to the country.
And I wonder how many New Yorkers know that there is a public school in the city named for a Confederate officer. It's the Simon Baruch Middle School, named for the father of the financier Bernard Baruch who was a surgeon in the Confederate army during the war. However, he wasn't honored for this but for his contributions to public health in NYC where he moved after the war.
As to Columbus, he really didn't do anything special because it's generally accepted that the Vikings made it to North America long before he did. Of course, no politician in NYC is hustling for the Scandanavian-American vote so I don't think the statue of Columbus is going anywhere soon.
3
Slavery and racial/tribal/ethnic discrimination are not unique to the United States or Caucasian people, and have existed on every continent, save Antarctica. As the birthplace of the human species, Africa was likely also the birthplace of the practice of slavery. Slaves built the pyramids in Egypt and by the 6th century AD, there was a lucrative African slave trade that helped to foster the rise of great African empires, including the great Malian empire. It was black Africans who captured and sold other black Africans to Western slave traders. The last nation in the world to formally outlaw slavery, at least on paper, was the African nation of Mauritania in 1981. Scholars and activists of contemporary slavery estimate that Africa is second only to Asia in the number of people held as slaves (www.antislavery.org).
Removing historical monuments because the subjects' morals from centuries ago differ from modern norms is a slippery slope. Where does it end, and should only proponents of black slavery be subject to censure?
Removing historical monuments because the subjects' morals from centuries ago differ from modern norms is a slippery slope. Where does it end, and should only proponents of black slavery be subject to censure?
12
Confederate Monuments v. Other Historical Monuments.
There is a big distinction between most of the Confederate Monuments and these other monuments that are mentioned in the article-
The Confederate Monuments were erected to honor and celebrate the Civil War and its cause- slavery! They were erected to denigrate blacks in the South and to intimidate them. Robert E Lee's statute was errected to celebrate his treason; his killing of so many Notherners for the cause of slavey. These men are celebrated BECAUSE of their racism.
The other historical figures- the non -Confederate Monuments- are celebrated DESPITE their flaws because of other positive things they did for the Country. Not BECAUSE of their flaws.
The statue of Washington was not erected because he owned slaves- that is not what is being celebrated with his monument; his monument was erected to celebrate that he was our first President and all he did to found the country.
We don't erect a monument to Grant because he was anti-semetic and his injustice to Jews; we erect a monument to him because he won the Civil War, helped free the slaves, and served many years as President of the United States.
I don't understand why the article doesn't point out this important distiction. Robert E Lee is celebrated specifically FOR his treason and fight to uphold Southern Society, i.e., slavery.
The Left is one again sabatoaging itself by playing right into Trump's "slippery slope" argument.
There is a big distinction between most of the Confederate Monuments and these other monuments that are mentioned in the article-
The Confederate Monuments were erected to honor and celebrate the Civil War and its cause- slavery! They were erected to denigrate blacks in the South and to intimidate them. Robert E Lee's statute was errected to celebrate his treason; his killing of so many Notherners for the cause of slavey. These men are celebrated BECAUSE of their racism.
The other historical figures- the non -Confederate Monuments- are celebrated DESPITE their flaws because of other positive things they did for the Country. Not BECAUSE of their flaws.
The statue of Washington was not erected because he owned slaves- that is not what is being celebrated with his monument; his monument was erected to celebrate that he was our first President and all he did to found the country.
We don't erect a monument to Grant because he was anti-semetic and his injustice to Jews; we erect a monument to him because he won the Civil War, helped free the slaves, and served many years as President of the United States.
I don't understand why the article doesn't point out this important distiction. Robert E Lee is celebrated specifically FOR his treason and fight to uphold Southern Society, i.e., slavery.
The Left is one again sabatoaging itself by playing right into Trump's "slippery slope" argument.
6
To this white Philadelphian, the Frank Rizzo statue represents his 40 years of public service to the city of Philadelphia. Frank Rizzo's career of service is worthy of admiration and celebration. He reformed PGW to help the older and poorer people of Philadelphia. He also held abhorrent views on the African American and LGBT communities. How do we celebrate historical figures and the admirable things they did while recognizing that they were not perfect people? I fully support the dismantling of Confederate monuments in the South, but this feels different. Frank Rizzo's legacy is part of this city and honoring his service is not an endorsement of Philadelphia's past and current institutional racism. Let Frank stay.
3
It always feels different when it's the monuments you love, right?
2
Once again, liberals have taken the argument too far and are just proving Trump's comment about Washington being right. People seriously want to pull down Columbus' statue? In trying to "energize" their base, the Democrats are going to start losing centrist voters like me. What happened to common sense?
19
The article has provided no numbers of those engaging in what I feel perfectly comfortable labeling as this hyperbolic endeavor - while I don't dispute that this is coming from the left (and that any conservatives jumping on this bandwagon will be lonely, indeed), I think blanket characterizations of "liberals" and Democrats as a group promoting this issue is a gross overreach. Yes, all people supporting this movement are (likely) liberals, but I think the vast majority of liberals see the folly in trying to raze every monument to a person with a - ahem - checkered past. As is typically the case, regardless of political stripe, the loudest voices are not representative of the majority. However, it is the obligation of the majority to inject common sense into the discourse.
The vandalism of statues of Columbus is just more evidence of America's long and deep history of anti-Italianism.
The biggest mass lynching in the US was of Italians. In 1891 a mob in New orlean lynched 11 innocent Italians. President Teddy Roosevelt and the NYT sided with the mob. The Times wrote, "sneaking and cowardly Sicilians, the descendants of bandits and assassins."
The biggest mass lynching in the US was of Italians. In 1891 a mob in New orlean lynched 11 innocent Italians. President Teddy Roosevelt and the NYT sided with the mob. The Times wrote, "sneaking and cowardly Sicilians, the descendants of bandits and assassins."
46
The objections to glorifying Christopher Columbus stem from the fact that he was a mass murdering dope. Almost everything we were taught about him in 3rd grade was wrong. He had no idea what he was doing, and he enslaved and/or murdered all the indigenous people he encountered in the Caribbean. Adult history shows us that there's no reason he should be the subject for any kind of hero worship.
2
"Mass lunching of Italians"?! How about the 100's of thousand African Americans lynched in the post Civil war south with the Jim Crow laws to allow it?! We shouldn't have a single statue (which by the way is idolatry) to anyone who was not honorable, decent, or worthy of everyone's respect!
Columbus stands for the horrors that the Native Americans suffered.
Columbus stands for the horrors that the Native Americans suffered.
Mari, only having statues for people who are "honorable, decent, or worthy of everyone's respect" would probably mean no statues. America's urban spaces would look like Protestant Churches! All of this is subjective, largely based on time even more so than our supposed identities. I'm not sure what Columbus stood for or what was in his heart, but I do know he never stepped foot onto what is now the continental U.S. and whatever issues our native peoples have is with our government. What next, change the name of Columbia University? Ask the nation of Columbia to change its name? Or even better, how about getting rid of Spanish, Hispanic culture, and Catholicism, which are the true legacies of Columbus. Oh, boy, once we're on the slop, the slide right on down is a quick one!
6
There are TV shows that offend me. There are newspaper articles that offend me. There are political ideas that I, and many others find offensive but I don't try to shut them down or remove them because I find them offensive, I ignore them.
Isn't true tolerance being able to tolerate others views and actions that one might not like? We are being held hostage to a small politically inspired activist wing of the left and it is not enough for the Claire MaCaskilll's of the world to call such divisive tactics a "distraction" she and other Democrats should vocally denounce this grandstanding that is hurting our civil politics and has already led to needless death and destruction.
We are being torn apart by political opportunists on the left and it is incumbent on leaders of the left to stop this awful polarization.
Isn't true tolerance being able to tolerate others views and actions that one might not like? We are being held hostage to a small politically inspired activist wing of the left and it is not enough for the Claire MaCaskilll's of the world to call such divisive tactics a "distraction" she and other Democrats should vocally denounce this grandstanding that is hurting our civil politics and has already led to needless death and destruction.
We are being torn apart by political opportunists on the left and it is incumbent on leaders of the left to stop this awful polarization.
72
I'm not black.
I grew up in Philly during the Rizzo years.
I am independent.
I can read about Rizzo in a history of Philadelphia piece; I do not need a statue in a public place.
I grew up in Philly during the Rizzo years.
I am independent.
I can read about Rizzo in a history of Philadelphia piece; I do not need a statue in a public place.
1
These monuments should provoke discussion and help us understand who we are, where we've been, and what our flaws are. If we look at any historical figure through today's lens, we are likely to find something in their past that we disagree with. Knee-jerk populism, of any kind, is short-sighted, and contemporary leaders are doing future generations a great disservice in their efforts to remove and rename. Maybe we should be thinking about how to provide adequate context for these figures, instead of trying to erase them. Taking down a statue won't end racism. Educating the public so they better understand the good and bad of these figures might be a step toward making us more sensitive.
I just hope that someday we erect a monument to weak, feckless, and populist leaders like De Blasio or Trump as a warning for future generations.
I just hope that someday we erect a monument to weak, feckless, and populist leaders like De Blasio or Trump as a warning for future generations.
9
Which is why some sort of compromises would make far more sense. Like new plaques to put such controversial statues in context.
There is still a question of where to draw the line. Thanks to the far left meme of identity politics, there is no reasonable or rational end to this.
Oh, and compromise isn't something either side's extremes is at all amenable to.
There is still a question of where to draw the line. Thanks to the far left meme of identity politics, there is no reasonable or rational end to this.
Oh, and compromise isn't something either side's extremes is at all amenable to.
I have noticed in this debate that the status of these works of art as works of art is rarely mentioned. Instead, they are treated as bumper stickers.
Some of these works are very successful. In Dallas, there is a very good public sculpture of Robert E. Lee on a horse. I had wondered if in order to keep the work, even effacing its name couldn't be an option, but people told me "no". (I have the feeling that most people don't know who Robert E. Lee was and didn't care until now.)
These defenestrations have occurred periodically in history. For example, there is Savanorola burning Botticellis, sculptures, and manuscripts in his Bonfire of the Vanities in 15th century Florence. There are the destroyed sculpture in various cathedrals in France during the upheavals of the French Revolution. And on toward the Taliban's and radical Muslim destruction of ancient works.
In each case, whether secular or religious, a fanaticism has overshadowed art. Book burning comes in many forms.
Some of these works are very successful. In Dallas, there is a very good public sculpture of Robert E. Lee on a horse. I had wondered if in order to keep the work, even effacing its name couldn't be an option, but people told me "no". (I have the feeling that most people don't know who Robert E. Lee was and didn't care until now.)
These defenestrations have occurred periodically in history. For example, there is Savanorola burning Botticellis, sculptures, and manuscripts in his Bonfire of the Vanities in 15th century Florence. There are the destroyed sculpture in various cathedrals in France during the upheavals of the French Revolution. And on toward the Taliban's and radical Muslim destruction of ancient works.
In each case, whether secular or religious, a fanaticism has overshadowed art. Book burning comes in many forms.
63
"Defenestration?" Throwing out of a window?
1
"Defenestration" can also be used metaphorically to imply a contretemp.
3
"Contretemp?" [sic - it's actually contretemps] A contretemps is a dispute or unfortunate occurrence.
"Defenestration" is throwing something from a window or an act of dismissing someone from a position of authority.
I apologize if this semantic lesson angers you, but it's difficult to deduce one's meaning when words are used incorrectly.
"Defenestration" is throwing something from a window or an act of dismissing someone from a position of authority.
I apologize if this semantic lesson angers you, but it's difficult to deduce one's meaning when words are used incorrectly.
This is getting totally ridiculous.
137
Such noise. What about jobs, education, and cleaning up this city, de Blasio?
90
Stupid. I am beginning to think that Trump had a point... yes, are Washington and Jefferson next?
112
Here's the answer to your question.
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2017/08/16/jackson-washington-park-protest-p...
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2017/08/16/jackson-washington-park-protest-p...
1
The confederate monuments must go: they were put up in the spirit of hatred to represent hateful things. That was their intention from the beginning. They stand for nothing more than that.
The other monuments. Not so sure. Perhaps some, but for the bulk of them, probably not. When you start knocking down old stuff on a whim or on the ideology of the moment or on a fleeting feeling, well, if you're a thinking person, the historic parallels should give you pause.
The Columbus Circle monument, for example, was erected in 1892 on the 400th anniversary. You can read all about it the NY Times archive. Not a controversially figure in 1892. Festivities. Parades. The spirit in which it was erected and celebrated was one of exploration, innovation, discovery, progress, etc. Was it even meant to commemorate a man; or was it meant to exalt certain positive characteristics, posthumously attached to the person or the events he's associated with?
The quote in the article from the NYC Mayor muddies the water and misses the point. What we often end up talking about here is people's feelings, not the reasons certain monuments were created, and certainly very little, if nothing at all about what they actually commemorate. That is, what was intended.
There are always people who will be offended; always people who will feel the opposite. And, then the overwhelming majority who are unmoved by statues. Better to add than remove; better to write a new book than burn an old one.
The other monuments. Not so sure. Perhaps some, but for the bulk of them, probably not. When you start knocking down old stuff on a whim or on the ideology of the moment or on a fleeting feeling, well, if you're a thinking person, the historic parallels should give you pause.
The Columbus Circle monument, for example, was erected in 1892 on the 400th anniversary. You can read all about it the NY Times archive. Not a controversially figure in 1892. Festivities. Parades. The spirit in which it was erected and celebrated was one of exploration, innovation, discovery, progress, etc. Was it even meant to commemorate a man; or was it meant to exalt certain positive characteristics, posthumously attached to the person or the events he's associated with?
The quote in the article from the NYC Mayor muddies the water and misses the point. What we often end up talking about here is people's feelings, not the reasons certain monuments were created, and certainly very little, if nothing at all about what they actually commemorate. That is, what was intended.
There are always people who will be offended; always people who will feel the opposite. And, then the overwhelming majority who are unmoved by statues. Better to add than remove; better to write a new book than burn an old one.
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None of these monuments were erected to honor traitors. That's the difference.
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"None of these monuments were erected to honor traitors."
Wrong; Washington, Jefferson, and every one of the Founding Fathers were traitors to their sovereign government. We accept them because they were fighting on "our" side. What people forget is that to many in the South, Lee/Jackson/etc were fighting for "our" side as well.
Wrong; Washington, Jefferson, and every one of the Founding Fathers were traitors to their sovereign government. We accept them because they were fighting on "our" side. What people forget is that to many in the South, Lee/Jackson/etc were fighting for "our" side as well.
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History is written by the victors. And the history we tell our children will make the future. What kind of future do you want for your children? One built on the lies of greed, or one built on truth? One that justifies endless war, or one that buttresses the Golden Rule? Tearing down monuments is not rewriting history. It is changing what we celebrate in history, as a people, as Americans.
While we are on the subject of taking down monuments to racist slavers, there is no better place to start than with Christopher Colombus, an antisemitic, raping, genocidal slave master. You don't need "revisionist" historians to learn what a sadistic sociopath he was, go to the library and read him in his own words: "their Highnesses may see that I shall give them as much gold as they need .... and slaves as many as they shall order to be shipped."
While we are on the subject of taking down monuments to racist slavers, there is no better place to start than with Christopher Colombus, an antisemitic, raping, genocidal slave master. You don't need "revisionist" historians to learn what a sadistic sociopath he was, go to the library and read him in his own words: "their Highnesses may see that I shall give them as much gold as they need .... and slaves as many as they shall order to be shipped."
5
I'm no fan of Trump--I can't stand him--and I don't have a real stance on whether Confederate statues are torn down or not. However, I think this article reveals the legitimacy of a concern expressed by Trump that was widely misrepresented and maligned.
The misrepresentation was that Trump was making a false equivalence between Lee and Jackson, on the one hand, and Washington and Jefferson, on the other. But that was never his argument. Rather, his argument (or at least my generous interpretation of his argument) was a slippery slope argument: if we permit taking down Lee's statue because he held views that we view as unacceptable, where do we draw the line with other historical figures who also held unacceptable views? I'm not saying a line can't be drawn (slippery slope is often--though not always--a fallacy, after all), but it's at least a reasonable question to ask.
Ultimately, though, what I DO have a stance on is that while this is a conversation worth having, it's unfortunate that this is the primary focus rather than what Pruitt's doing to the EPA, Trump's belligerent rhetoric towards North Korea, the possibility of government shutdown, or any number of concerns that can cause serious harm, here and now.
The misrepresentation was that Trump was making a false equivalence between Lee and Jackson, on the one hand, and Washington and Jefferson, on the other. But that was never his argument. Rather, his argument (or at least my generous interpretation of his argument) was a slippery slope argument: if we permit taking down Lee's statue because he held views that we view as unacceptable, where do we draw the line with other historical figures who also held unacceptable views? I'm not saying a line can't be drawn (slippery slope is often--though not always--a fallacy, after all), but it's at least a reasonable question to ask.
Ultimately, though, what I DO have a stance on is that while this is a conversation worth having, it's unfortunate that this is the primary focus rather than what Pruitt's doing to the EPA, Trump's belligerent rhetoric towards North Korea, the possibility of government shutdown, or any number of concerns that can cause serious harm, here and now.
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Actually, the outrage was over Trump false equivalency between the neo-Nazi protestors and the folks who oppose that kind of hatred and bigotry.
Yes, but one can make distinctions. The rap against Lee and Jackson is that they took up arms against the USA, the nation that Washington fought to found.
Your point misses its mark. I never said that there was not outrage over false equivalency between neo-Nazis and their opponents; rather, I simply stated that ONE of his statements was misrepresented.
The most extreme and frankly, idiotic calls in this direction are for the removal of status to Ulysses S. Grant. Not only did Grant win the Civil War for the North, but as president, he proactively suppressed the Klan and protected African-Americans. He was a bulwark against neo-Confederate ideology. Once he was gone it surged forward, ultimately leading to Jim Crow. Oh, and during the war, he made an offensive anti-Semitic comment once.
So many times during this debacle I've wondered why we don't have MORE status of Grant across the country (instead of, bizarrely, status of Confederate generals in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, etc.). We do have genuine heroes in American history and Grant was one of them.
So many times during this debacle I've wondered why we don't have MORE status of Grant across the country (instead of, bizarrely, status of Confederate generals in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, etc.). We do have genuine heroes in American history and Grant was one of them.
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He didn't just make "an offensive anti-semitic comment once." He issued the most anti-semitic order ever made by a U.S. general when he ordered all Jews in the territory under his jurisdiction to be banished from it simply because of their religion. Lincoln reversed it as soon as he heard about it.
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Let's not forget he also presided over one of the most corrupt administrations in US history.
Grant was a slaveholder.
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The tail is now wagging the dog.
I am about as left-leaning as they come, but trying to please everyone is a fruitless endeavor and, as Andrew Young notes, emphasizes symbol over substance. The monument debacle - which is what it is fast becoming - is, although not without meaning or merit, a distraction from immediate and serious issues facing our nation. Further, as the ripple effect continues, so does the division. I believe most self-described "moderates" will see this as a bridge to far, and I think the risk of putting our energies and focus here is greater than the ultimate benefit.
Although I was raised in the deep south, and count amongst my ancestors a number of men who fought on the side of the Confederacy, I have no personal attachment to the Confederate monuments - although I am a student of history, and do think we need to be careful to avoid "whitewashing" the past, I understand that those monuments cause a great deal of pain to a great many people and that while they may be part of our heritage, that heritage is rife with hate and division, and all of their rotten fruits. So take them down - I personally wouldn't demand it, but nor will I lose sleep over their absence, and I hope we are all the better and more united, ultimately, for it.
However. It should be stated that there are no flawless icons in our nation's history. At some point, we have to draw a line and turn our energies elsewhere. Where, precisely, that line should be drawn is the question.
I am about as left-leaning as they come, but trying to please everyone is a fruitless endeavor and, as Andrew Young notes, emphasizes symbol over substance. The monument debacle - which is what it is fast becoming - is, although not without meaning or merit, a distraction from immediate and serious issues facing our nation. Further, as the ripple effect continues, so does the division. I believe most self-described "moderates" will see this as a bridge to far, and I think the risk of putting our energies and focus here is greater than the ultimate benefit.
Although I was raised in the deep south, and count amongst my ancestors a number of men who fought on the side of the Confederacy, I have no personal attachment to the Confederate monuments - although I am a student of history, and do think we need to be careful to avoid "whitewashing" the past, I understand that those monuments cause a great deal of pain to a great many people and that while they may be part of our heritage, that heritage is rife with hate and division, and all of their rotten fruits. So take them down - I personally wouldn't demand it, but nor will I lose sleep over their absence, and I hope we are all the better and more united, ultimately, for it.
However. It should be stated that there are no flawless icons in our nation's history. At some point, we have to draw a line and turn our energies elsewhere. Where, precisely, that line should be drawn is the question.
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'At some point, we have to draw a line and turn our energies elsewhere.'
I do not agree with taking them down. Because, you can't uncut it down, you can't undo what you did, you can't unsay what you said.
And, Christopher Columbus did not overrun the Native Americans - immigrants and such as Jefferson Davis did. CC just opened the door.
I do not agree with taking them down. Because, you can't uncut it down, you can't undo what you did, you can't unsay what you said.
And, Christopher Columbus did not overrun the Native Americans - immigrants and such as Jefferson Davis did. CC just opened the door.
2
False - Columbus and his men personally enslaved the indigenous people of several Caribbean islands.
If knowing there is a statue somewhere you don't like causes one a"great deal of pain" I don't know how that little snowflake ever manages in the real world!
People are not, by nature, kind to strangers. We are not, as a species, gentle and helpful so expecting nothing in the public sphere to be different than what you might like or approve is a fools errand.
Get over it and move on. Adopt a motherless child if you actually want to do good.
People are not, by nature, kind to strangers. We are not, as a species, gentle and helpful so expecting nothing in the public sphere to be different than what you might like or approve is a fools errand.
Get over it and move on. Adopt a motherless child if you actually want to do good.
1
BLM and antifa flash mobs - destroying graveyards, museums and monuments - what's not to love?
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Let me quote a great New Yorker: Ada Louis Huxtable:
"We will not be known for the monuments we build,
But, for the monuments we destroy."
I think she pretty much covered the subject of monument removal of all types.
Stop It!!!
"We will not be known for the monuments we build,
But, for the monuments we destroy."
I think she pretty much covered the subject of monument removal of all types.
Stop It!!!
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The issue of removal should be put to a vote by the local constituancy
5
A monument is commemorative, if the proper commentary is attached to it any monument becomes acceptable. For example, if a plaque was affixed to a monument of General Lee citing his support for the vile and contemptible tradition of slavery and invoking the shame of the South, that monument would be a teaching moment that aligns with modern values. The Columbus statue would note the genocide of the Native American population. A statue of President Trump might note that severe mental issues need not preclude a term in the White House, and so on.
3
Confederacy and its leaders represent a bloody effort to remove the American flag and split the country apart. They don't deserve statutes in their honor on Main Street. They belong in a museum setting like Gettysburg. But further demands to remove Columbus are ridiculous. He lived over 500 years ago! If you're upset at Columbus then you're nuts.
9
Columbus was not "Mr. Nice Guy", (neither were Ferdinand and Isabella), and, if history be true, Leif Erickson should be honored, but really, how far does this go?
I guess some sort of answer is that they were, as we are, people of our time. Thoughts and mores change and the to judge past actions by today's standards is simply not appropriate in the absolute sense which many would apply.
I guess some sort of answer is that they were, as we are, people of our time. Thoughts and mores change and the to judge past actions by today's standards is simply not appropriate in the absolute sense which many would apply.
6
Trump's approval rating is _rising_ thanks to these fools.
Next stop: Jefferson, Lincoln, the Roosevelts.
Pretty easy to see where this leads: first, the jacobins will go after the nation's progressive heroes; then white liberals will be alienated; finally, Trump will be re-elected in 2020, just as Nixon was in 1972 against a far-left opponent.
Next stop: Jefferson, Lincoln, the Roosevelts.
Pretty easy to see where this leads: first, the jacobins will go after the nation's progressive heroes; then white liberals will be alienated; finally, Trump will be re-elected in 2020, just as Nixon was in 1972 against a far-left opponent.
23
Whoa! One statue at a time, with extra consideration for each. Never rush in, like a fool.
4
Next, the Washington Monument and the Jefferson Memorial? Washington Square Park and Columbus Circle? Everything named after Ben Franklin?
Move on people.....
Move on people.....
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This re-examination of heroes of the past will show them to be sometimes horrible people sometimes great people. History will show them to be people of their time with all the greed and prejudices of those times.
To equate the civil war monuments with all the bad that has been done by others not involved in the civil war is a right wing talking point and a false one.
Behind every statue is a person and a great accomplishment but more than likely a person who did things in their time that are not acceptable today.
The Civil War was a war about money like all wars. The value of the slaves was worth more than all the industrial base of the North and the rich wanted to keep their "money" in violation of all moral and religious values.
These people decided that their right to own their "money" was worth a Civil War and committed treason and convinced poor whites that the slaves who outnumbered them would rule over them.
As times changed this history would be glossed over and monuments erected to a failed war by traitors who wished to forget the horror and glorify their loss and demonstrate their unhappiness with a government that included blacks.
These things are still felt today and glorified for the same reason.
To equate the civil war monuments with all the bad that has been done by others not involved in the civil war is a right wing talking point and a false one.
Behind every statue is a person and a great accomplishment but more than likely a person who did things in their time that are not acceptable today.
The Civil War was a war about money like all wars. The value of the slaves was worth more than all the industrial base of the North and the rich wanted to keep their "money" in violation of all moral and religious values.
These people decided that their right to own their "money" was worth a Civil War and committed treason and convinced poor whites that the slaves who outnumbered them would rule over them.
As times changed this history would be glossed over and monuments erected to a failed war by traitors who wished to forget the horror and glorify their loss and demonstrate their unhappiness with a government that included blacks.
These things are still felt today and glorified for the same reason.
5
Lee, Colombus, & Rizzo offend some people's sensibilities and they want their statues down. Can the NYT explain how is this different than the Taliban taking down Buddhist statues, or ISIS removing crosses because they offend their sensibilities?
Like it or not Slavery, Lee, Colombus, Rizzo, Japenese interment, discrimination against women, gays and immigrants are all part of the American fabric. If you removed all of these things you may find yourself with Sweden or Latvia.
It is a demographic fact that in 100 years they will become a minority. I teach at a top 50 school. Today fewer than 20% of students in any class are white males. How would you feel if in say 2150 white males started calling for removal of MLK and Rosa Parks statues?
The main problem is that for the past 30 years Democrats have practiced Identity politics, celebrating every identity except the white one. To every action, there is a reaction. And taking down these statues will slow down progress towards a more equitable America.
Like it or not Slavery, Lee, Colombus, Rizzo, Japenese interment, discrimination against women, gays and immigrants are all part of the American fabric. If you removed all of these things you may find yourself with Sweden or Latvia.
It is a demographic fact that in 100 years they will become a minority. I teach at a top 50 school. Today fewer than 20% of students in any class are white males. How would you feel if in say 2150 white males started calling for removal of MLK and Rosa Parks statues?
The main problem is that for the past 30 years Democrats have practiced Identity politics, celebrating every identity except the white one. To every action, there is a reaction. And taking down these statues will slow down progress towards a more equitable America.
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I don't think anyone is calling for the removal or erasure of history; people are calling for an end to the glorification of history's villains. Would we champion a statue of Hitler sitting majestically on horseback? Pol Pot robed as Zeus? Jeffrey Dahmer proudly pointing ahead to the future?
The call here is for history to be taught WELL, not obfuscated.
The call here is for history to be taught WELL, not obfuscated.
64
Except they are. I've already watched a pair of CNN's "contributors" call for dynamiting Mount Rushmore, Al Sharpton (again, on CNN) calling for the removal of statues of Washington, Jefferson, et al, because they were all slave holders, and an entire four person panel on CNN debating which of the founding fathers should be ostracized.
On top of that, we are seeing several absolutely RIDICULOUS stories, which would be funny, if they weren't true, including ESPN changing-out a commentator for Saturday's UVA football game, because his name is Robert Lee (I'm fairly certain there weren't many KOREAN-Americans active in the Confederacy), and a student group at USC want to get rid of the horse the Trojan mascot rides in on, because it happens to have the same name as Robert E. Lee's horse (Traveler).
On top of that, we are seeing several absolutely RIDICULOUS stories, which would be funny, if they weren't true, including ESPN changing-out a commentator for Saturday's UVA football game, because his name is Robert Lee (I'm fairly certain there weren't many KOREAN-Americans active in the Confederacy), and a student group at USC want to get rid of the horse the Trojan mascot rides in on, because it happens to have the same name as Robert E. Lee's horse (Traveler).
7
And who gets to name the villains? I think that is a key question.
5
Who among us is perfect?? How long before all statues are taken down, who can measure up??
20
What I noticed about this article is that in numerous instances, the noun Trump is not preceded by either a first name or honorific while every other personage's name is. What can be concluded is that the authors seek to denigrate the President by resorting to this unworthy manner of composition.
51
Or that Trump has denigrated himself.
2
Ted in every one of those instances the use of "Trump" alone was a quotation of someone else speaking. All of which pales beside the "unworthy manner of composition" afforded the previous president that those now offended seemed to revel in.
5
This is either a woefully ignorant or deliberately misleading statement. In what I assume is the NYT's house policy, everyone gets their title and is then referred to as "Mr." or "Mrs." President Trump, is referred to properly as "President" in about the 8th paragraph and then as "Mr." thereafter. Perhaps you'd prefer he be titled "Our Esteemed and Puissant Leader," but we're not there yet.
2
All of this is strong evidence that Americans have lost their collective minds. Andrew Young is right. There are much bigger fish to fry.
96
Someone is doing a very good job at dividing us. We need to stop, look around, look at and talk to each other. Who is behind this divisionist force and how are they profiting while we bicker amongst our lesser selves?
213
It may be self-interested groups "dividing us", but finding a reason to take down the image of every public figure in American history because that person does not fit today's politically correct hysteria is where liberal lunacy leads. Yes, the right has its extremists, but the left of the political spectrum is hardly rational and sane.
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Ask the editorial staff at WaPo, CNN and the NYT. For four decades, they have reveled in breaking our society into segments, and then pushing a narrative that some of those segments are bad, while the rest are perpetual victims.
As always, for better or for worse, these outlets are where we get almost all of our news, and there's even been a movement, the past decade, to attack other news outlets that don't report in lock step with the "big three".
As always, for better or for worse, these outlets are where we get almost all of our news, and there's even been a movement, the past decade, to attack other news outlets that don't report in lock step with the "big three".
10
Civil War #2?
1
For good or bad, the people represented by those statues highlight moments in our history. Don't like Rizzo? Fine, then erect a statue depicting who/what you want. Trying to erase history is not the way to go.
29
The problem with the Rizzo statue is that there are none in Philadelphia honoring other mayors, many of whom did far more for the city than did Rizzo.
1
So they've just added validity to Trump's rhetorical question about whether the Founders are next. One certainly does have to ask himself where this stops. There is a statue down by Wall Street where George Washington inaugurated to become the first President; I will not be surprised if that is next on the list to come down. Instead of giving full context and history to these sometimes murky figures, the Left would rather focus on removing pieces of this country's history because it offends some people. We have indeed become a nation of babies with backwards priorities. This is sure to alienate everyone except the far Left and give Trump more ammo he doesn't need.
128
For over a hundred years anti-Italian groups have been targeting Christopher Columbus. It just proves that anti-Italian hate and bigotry is alive and well in the US.
80
I don't think it's anti-italian sentiment but rather Political Correctness and leftist -liberal extremist agendas which have actually given Trump the opportunity to look fair minded by comparison. Similar polarizing comments made by Black Activists comparing the NFL to plantation owners and players as slaves because Colin Kaepernick's refusal to stand for the national anthem has left him without a job in the NFL.
4
Well, I think it is more pro-native people than it is "anti-Italian hate and bigotry" because to them it wouldn't have mattered whether he was Spanish, English, Dutch, or French.
3
Voice--This isn't anti-Italian. Columbus did not "discover" America. We've known this, as a fact, for decades. Leave the statue, but change the plaques explaining his connection to "America."
3