Th SPLC is just another Soros front group dedicated to undermining this nation.
15
Hucksters like Maajid Nawaz and Ayaan Hirsi Ali are riding Trump’s lucrative wave of anti-Muslim hate all the way to the bank. It’s a disgrace and I’m glad anti-bigotry organizations like the SPLC are raising awareness of the issue.
8
I find it extremely ironic Ms. Ali considers herself a liberal when her home for the last few decades has been in conservative circles-- the American Enterprise Institute and Hoover among them. This is in large part because her rhetoric is toxic, dangerous, and willfully misinformed. She is on record saying there is "no such thing" as moderate Islam, blithely ignorant to the plain truth that "extremists" are called "extremists" for a reason-- they represent the fringes, not the mainstream. Her rhetoric is insulting and offensive to the millions of Muslims worldwide who practice their faith in peace. Her comments, at points, sound more aligned with those coming from white supremacist groups, including remarks about the need to "protect Western civilization" from Islam, and repeatedly discussing how Islam is "at war" with the West.
Ms. Ali has recognized there is a large market in conservative circles for minorities willing to denounce their own. (Ben Carson, for instance, has recognized this as well). She has perfected-- and accordingly monetized-- the narrative of the brown woman, persecuted by brown men, needing to be saved by white men-- and in doing so, plays into every misguided trope about the barbaric Middle East against the civilized West. SPLC is doing fantastic work, and this piece is a farce with clickbait for the headline.
Ms. Ali has recognized there is a large market in conservative circles for minorities willing to denounce their own. (Ben Carson, for instance, has recognized this as well). She has perfected-- and accordingly monetized-- the narrative of the brown woman, persecuted by brown men, needing to be saved by white men-- and in doing so, plays into every misguided trope about the barbaric Middle East against the civilized West. SPLC is doing fantastic work, and this piece is a farce with clickbait for the headline.
13
I'm afraid that the absolutist language the author uses about Islam puts her on the extremist end of the spectrum in my opinion. Of course there are extremists, as there are in other religious and other groups, and I believe she's faced abuse. But I will continue to support SPLC.
14
While i have read your books and have great respect for you, I don't think you should be criticizing an important institution standing against bigotry. They may be wrong about you but please have a thicker skin. In an era when the President of the United States is saying neo-Nazis and white supremacists are good people, those of us against racist and bigotry have to stand together.
5
Thank you. You just reinforced my commitment to the SPLC.
17
Nobody I know is "anti-Muslim" - Muslims are people - our neighbors and colleagues. Even those with concerns about Islam understand that everyday people are not responsible for terrorism. "Islam" is not a person, it's an idea. To be "anti-Islam" is to hold an intellectual opinion about the fate of our global culture, as is being "anti-communism". I'm sure many Marxists are nice people too. Funny how we don't shame people with "Communiphobia", isn't it.
26
I am a longtime, though modest contributor to SPLC. Much of what they do should be applauded. However, too much of their focus is on the extreme right, almost completely ignoring the extreme left. I suggest that they live up to the last word in their name: Center...And that they start from that point and look both left and right for bigotry.
33
Ayann Hirshi Ali may not be right on every issue, but she is an insightful, intelligent woman—and VERY brave, and her targeting by a significant portion of the political left is a scandal. Brandeis University saw fit to dis-invite her? Really? I have always respected that University for many things, but reading about that I wish I had also donated to them, so that I could stop doing it.
61
Because of this article, i went to the SPLC website to look up Maajid Nawaz (who I had never heard of), to understand who he is, and why he is "listed." (https://www.splcenter.org/20161025/journalists-manual-field-guide-anti-m... I also read some of his writings, etc. By all accounts, he is thoughtful, and clear, and liberal in the classic sense. Nothing I have read is hateful, or deceitful. Far from it. It is shocking that SPLC sought fit to "list" him. To what end?
What was the evidence SPLC provided? Here is a sample:
"According to a Jan. 24, 2014, report in The Guardian, Nawaz tweeted out a cartoon of Jesus and Muhammad — despite the fact that many Muslims see it as blasphemous to draw Muhammad. He said that he wanted “to carve out a space to be heard without constantly fearing the blasphemy charge.”
Tweeted out a cartoon? Seriously? This is his right, regardless of who it offends (or thinks blasphemous). Journalists have died for this right. By that standard, Charlie Hebdo should be listed too. And, SPLC took it all out of context. Read the Guardian article (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/28/speaking-islam-lou... and judge for yourself.
A number of commenters have suggested that SPLC should have space too respond. I agree. The have some explaining to do here.
Criticism of religious extremism is not hate speech.
What was the evidence SPLC provided? Here is a sample:
"According to a Jan. 24, 2014, report in The Guardian, Nawaz tweeted out a cartoon of Jesus and Muhammad — despite the fact that many Muslims see it as blasphemous to draw Muhammad. He said that he wanted “to carve out a space to be heard without constantly fearing the blasphemy charge.”
Tweeted out a cartoon? Seriously? This is his right, regardless of who it offends (or thinks blasphemous). Journalists have died for this right. By that standard, Charlie Hebdo should be listed too. And, SPLC took it all out of context. Read the Guardian article (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/28/speaking-islam-lou... and judge for yourself.
A number of commenters have suggested that SPLC should have space too respond. I agree. The have some explaining to do here.
Criticism of religious extremism is not hate speech.
112
The SPLC definitely mischaracterizes some individuals. Sometimes they go overboard criticizing certain people deserving criticism but not deserving being branded. I think it hurts their name and their mission. The division in this country is worsened by that. When one disagrees with someone on any matter whatsoever it is not helpful to treat them like someone with whom one is diametrically opposed.
25
It might be noted that 'Liberals' aren't the only one's tacitly excusing Sharia extremism. Yet another of our presidents is walking hand-in=hand with the Saudis who are committed to some truly scary Sharia Law.
Trump praised the Saudi Sharia system as 'a good place to get divorced': http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/09/time-donald-trump-called-sau...
Fox is forever lambasting liberals for 'politically correctness', but the same network propagandizes for this president, who seems to have little trouble with the similarities between Sharia as proscribed by daesh, and those penalties practiced by the Saudis:
Many Isis penalties are identical to those in Saudi law, which is also based in Sharia.
Both Isis and Saudi call for the death penalty for those convicted of blasphemy, adultery and homosexuality. Hand amputations and public lashings are also prescribed for lesser offences in both systems, etc.
It's been reported that in the 21 months between James Foley’s capture in November 2012 and his subsequent beheading by Isis militants on August 19 2014, Saudi Arabia beheaded 113 people. (Guardian).
It should be noted that Jared just cut a huge deal to sustain the Saudis with advanced weapons, considering them an ally & profitable business partner, & Trump ally Schwartzman & his Blackstone together with Kushner are thick as thieves with the Saudis:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/19/business/the-benefits-of-standing-by-...
Trump praised the Saudi Sharia system as 'a good place to get divorced': http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/09/time-donald-trump-called-sau...
Fox is forever lambasting liberals for 'politically correctness', but the same network propagandizes for this president, who seems to have little trouble with the similarities between Sharia as proscribed by daesh, and those penalties practiced by the Saudis:
Many Isis penalties are identical to those in Saudi law, which is also based in Sharia.
Both Isis and Saudi call for the death penalty for those convicted of blasphemy, adultery and homosexuality. Hand amputations and public lashings are also prescribed for lesser offences in both systems, etc.
It's been reported that in the 21 months between James Foley’s capture in November 2012 and his subsequent beheading by Isis militants on August 19 2014, Saudi Arabia beheaded 113 people. (Guardian).
It should be noted that Jared just cut a huge deal to sustain the Saudis with advanced weapons, considering them an ally & profitable business partner, & Trump ally Schwartzman & his Blackstone together with Kushner are thick as thieves with the Saudis:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/19/business/the-benefits-of-standing-by-...
22
Just like the Bible, Islam and the Koran can be interpreted to prop up various ideas of village, tribal, or national, leaders. Ms Ali has never picked a fight with moderate Muslims, but with Middle Eastern leaders who use either Wahabiism or Salafism to further their own agendas, and to keep the citizens (and in particular, women) down. I have read most of her books, and have the highest respect for the mountains she has climbed to become a public intellectual and international best-seller.
What she writes comes from her personal experiences, and what she has observed in her own life, and she does not pretend otherwise.
As a woman, I'm more outraged by her definition as an extremist by the SPLC than I am by Mr. Nawaz, simply because as a woman it is the most difficult of stands to be against the concoctions of Islam cooked up in Oman, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia and the UAE (and others). I stopped giving to the SPLC as soon as I learned of her being defined as an extremist.
What she writes comes from her personal experiences, and what she has observed in her own life, and she does not pretend otherwise.
As a woman, I'm more outraged by her definition as an extremist by the SPLC than I am by Mr. Nawaz, simply because as a woman it is the most difficult of stands to be against the concoctions of Islam cooked up in Oman, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia and the UAE (and others). I stopped giving to the SPLC as soon as I learned of her being defined as an extremist.
39
Like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, I am also an ex-Muslim but the similarities end there. I commend SPLC for including Ayaan in the list because I have always believed her to be a biased critic. One must read SPLC biography of Ayaan Hirsi Ali as to how she fabricated huge portions of her past because she never saw a civil war and her marriage was not forced as she claims and in fact her husband paid to send her to Europe and later divorced voluntarily. The issue with Ayaan is that while she pretends to speak against Islamic extremism, she is all for extremism in other religions including Christianity. I am, myself, an ex-Muslim but I also believe my criticism should not be shaped by my personal prejudices against Islam. The problems I see in Islam, I see in every other religion yet somehow they are invisible to Ayaan. I often struggle to find a difference between Ayaan and right-wing extremists. SPLC has done its homework well and they have my gratitude.
14
As a retired liberal, i must make severe choices about which organizations will get my limited charitable contributions. There are three that i give to with little thought that i might be misusing my money: Planned Parenthood, the ACLU, and the Southern Poverty Law Center. They have their priorities right, they actively defend the voiceless, and attack the aggressors. If you are feeling put-upon by the SPLC, you probably would do well to look to yourself and your own beliefs and activities before you criticize theirs.
11
Please, Ms Ali, when you and your compatriot Mr. Nawaz ally yourself with the likes of Theo Van Gogh, you're also keeping company with the likes of Pamela Geller and other fearmongering extremists that seek to expand the definition of Muslim religious zealots into anyone who practices, or is culturally of, the Muslim faith. They are extremists, which is why they are on the SPLC watch list in the first place, and I've wondered for some time now why you keep company with those who today may welcome you and your Muslim friends (with your high-profile celebrity) but who tomorrow will simply brand you as having the wrong color as well as a wrong faith, a wrong language, a wrong upbringing, etc.
Be careful with whom you keep company in the West, Ms Ali. As with anywhere else, all may not be as it seems.
Be careful with whom you keep company in the West, Ms Ali. As with anywhere else, all may not be as it seems.
9
If Hirsi is a "liberal", why is she so closely associated with so many conservative institutions and people? Perhaps she doesn't deserve this designation from SPLC, but she is most certainly a controversial figure who has espoused some very broad based criticism against the whole of Islam, not just extremists. In any case, the controversy over her is not a sufficient reason to stop supporting the SPLC, which does important and excellent work on domestic hate groups.
10
It is sad to see SPLC undermining its real value by a false equivalency. When Trump started his attacks on minorities, by going after people from the majority Muslim countries, was the time to defend Muslims against discrimination. It is demeaning to outright assume Muslims need a protector to shield them from hostile or challenging ideas too. By equating Islam and Muslims there is the weak smear attack of labeling Hirsi an Islamophobe while Trump is an actual Muslimophobe.
Liberals should take their priorities straight. Defend the weak minorities but do not get cornered by defending an idiology blindly.
Liberals should take their priorities straight. Defend the weak minorities but do not get cornered by defending an idiology blindly.
14
I have admired Ms. Hirsi for a long time. It takes real courage to speak out against homicidal extremists. I have never heard her say that all of Islam is detestable. Jennifer S is misguided in saying Ms. Hirsi is a danger to the progressive Muslim community. Why is Jennifer S against speaking out about medieval totalitarian mysogyny that allows zero criticism? There was a more enlightened period in the history of Islam when Christianity closed its mind and the Dark Ages resulted in Europe. Christianity was still reforming when in the 18th century Arabian Islam was going into the dark. Denial of a reality Ms. Hirsi experienced personally and still does, thus the bodyguards, is not helpful in reforming the extreme practices within Islam. Those who speak the unvarnished truth are always opposed by many who cannot accept the ugly reality that truth sometimes reveals. In many Muslim lands speech like Ms Hirsi's results in death. No free speech against Islam. Supposedly infallible patriarchies are totalitarian in nature, and all totalitarians protect their repugnant extremes. Bravo to Ms Hirsi I say. She does not claim to speak for any Muslims. Jennifer S is as I said, misguided. Should Bill Maher be placed on the S.P.L.C. anti-Muslim extremist list as well? Hirsi only says what he says.
36
Fundamentalist, theocratic religion of any type is a curse upon humanity. Ms. Ali is an important voice for actual justice and freedom.
31
I value what I read in the NY Times, although I understand that this piece is an Op-ed. It seems to me that the stories that the author and the SPLC tell are quite divergent. As with most readers, I do not have the time to investigate which story is true; thus, I would think that the NY Times should do the investigation rather than just let the author express what may or may not be accurate. I pay the NY Times to do the investigations that I do not have the time or resources to undertake. If I wanted to read unfettered postings, I could do that anywhere on the Web.
8
Thank you for this column! A liberal myself, I am regularly stunned by the determination of fellow liberals not to see the misogyny, homophobia, and lack of respect for freedom of speech in mainstream Islam. The same liberals who have a hair-trigger sensitivity to those three things in Western culture for some reason think it's okay in Islamic cultures. No. It's. Not. Abuse of women, preventing them from driving, failing to recognize their full humanity and equality, failing to recognize the rights of gays, etc., etc., are not "cultural differences." They are human rights abuses, plain and simple. I am so sick of hearing liberals make excuses for them. Let's condemn any culture, any at all, that fails to respect the full equality of all human beings. Even if (gasp!) that might mean breathing a word of criticism about Islam.
Case in point, by the way. In the UK, my friend's daughter is married to a man from Pakistan. They have two children, a girl and a boy. The girl, a beautiful, bright, intelligent girl, is not allowed out without a burkah. She is terrified of it, and cries every time they make her put it on. Her brother wears anything he wants--and beats his sister, with full encouragement from the father. We are okay with that, are we? It's very common, you know, in the UK now.
Case in point, by the way. In the UK, my friend's daughter is married to a man from Pakistan. They have two children, a girl and a boy. The girl, a beautiful, bright, intelligent girl, is not allowed out without a burkah. She is terrified of it, and cries every time they make her put it on. Her brother wears anything he wants--and beats his sister, with full encouragement from the father. We are okay with that, are we? It's very common, you know, in the UK now.
53
A journalist from Oman pointed out that FGM is practiced primarily in Africa. The extreme method is called Pharaonic because it originated in Egypt hundreds of years before Mohammed - as internet sources confirm. Most countries with a high percentage of FGM are all in Africa (UNICEF). Incidence is also high among Muslims of Oman, Yemen, and Indonesia, and 8% for women 15-49 in Iraq, but not frequent in Europe or the Americas. Ms. Hirsi Ali's birth country, Somalia, is at the top of the list, with 98%, and also has the highest rate of Type 3 FGM. This is one of many reasons why Ms. Hirsi Ali has rejected Islam, as she described in "Infidel." I liked her book and sympathize with her early difficulties. FGM, however, has no support in the Qur'an, so it isn't basic to Islam.
Although Maajid Nawaz has done good work, and the SPLC should consider taking him off their list, that doesn't make him a "Liberal."
Ms. Hirsi Ali, in two NYT articles I've read, hasn't fully supported many of her claims. In this article, she did not make a clear case for why she should not be on the SPLC list, and Theo van Gogh's video was strongly anti-Islam. While terrorism in the name of Islam is a problem - as much as terrorism in the name of white supremacy - tolerance of religion is an important principle in the USA. It isn't clear that Ms. Hirsi Ali tolerates Islam.
Although Maajid Nawaz has done good work, and the SPLC should consider taking him off their list, that doesn't make him a "Liberal."
Ms. Hirsi Ali, in two NYT articles I've read, hasn't fully supported many of her claims. In this article, she did not make a clear case for why she should not be on the SPLC list, and Theo van Gogh's video was strongly anti-Islam. While terrorism in the name of Islam is a problem - as much as terrorism in the name of white supremacy - tolerance of religion is an important principle in the USA. It isn't clear that Ms. Hirsi Ali tolerates Islam.
50
And don't forget that in Indonesia the practice is symbolic- a pinprick or a CC of blood with a hypodermic needle in a hospital.
I won't tolerate discrimination against women under the guise of tolerance of religion. Any religion. Period. Hirsi is 100% right. Religion doesn't trump human rights.
40
Why must she concede that tolerance of Islam is the only non-volatile precedent? She doesn't tolerate Islam and means not to. Rather, she'd prefer the SPLC to concede for she is demonstrably merciful and bears an uncanny devotion to liberty and human rights. Hindsight is 20/20. In my opinion, Ayaan ranks, both in eloquence and perspective, among heroes like Eli Wiesel and Nelson Mandela.
7
Re: “hate speech,” the modern word for heresy
Boom. Drop the mic.
Boom. Drop the mic.
23
As soon as the writer described herself as a "collaborator" of Theo Van Gogh, that was all I needed to flip the off switch. If Ms. Hirsi-Ali has in fact advocated somewhere for debate and critical thinking, that is great. However, by her own words she has affiliated herself with those who conflate and confuse the fight against those who do evil in Islam's name with a fight against Islam itself.
10
And that difference is .....?
5
@Albert
Really? It's the difference between opposing Trump and opposing the Office of the the President.
Crystal enough?
Really? It's the difference between opposing Trump and opposing the Office of the the President.
Crystal enough?
8
The SPLC is right, Hirsi Ali is not a liberal, but a kind of anti-Muslim McCarthyist. Why? Because she wants to cast Muslims and Islam as a whole--not just politically motivated terrorists acting in the name of Islam--as the enemy, and therefore to place Muslims as such beyond the pale of liberal protections, a fundamental violation of liberal respect for religious freedom and toleration within a pluralist society. She wants to turn all Muslims into what "communists" and "Reds" were during the Cold War, that is, persons whose belief system aims to destroy "us" and "our way of life" so that liberal protections shouldn’t apply to them, just as during the Smith Act trials of Communist Party leaders in the 40s communists were prosecuted and convicted based not on any actions they'd undertaken, but simply on a reading of what Marxism as such ostensibly said about the overthrow of Capitalism. In Yates v. United States in 1957 the blanket targeting of a whole group based on a selective reading of their belief system as opposed to concrete actions they had taken was ruled to violate the first amendment. To the extent Hirsi Ali wants to turn Muslims as such into this kind of "enemy" of "our values" and of "the West," she is not a liberal, but anti-liberal, a kind of mirror image of the very illiberalism she claims to deplore.
13
Ms. Hirsi Ali: Have you and SPLC met to discuss what you perceive as their mislabelling of you? Have you at least written to SPLC to give them the opportunity to respond directly to you?
If you have not tried dialog, then this article looks like self-promotion by you on the coattails of SPLC's reputation.
If you have tried dialog, why did you omit that from your article?
If you have not tried dialog, then this article looks like self-promotion by you on the coattails of SPLC's reputation.
If you have tried dialog, why did you omit that from your article?
18
Ms. Hirsi shows her true colors and agenda when she also attacks CAIR, the Council on American-Islamic Relations. CAIR has worked hard for many years to counter anti-Islamic hatred. By attacking CAIR, she makes it clear that her real problem is with any group that criticizes anti-Islamic hate speech. She accuses the SPLC of having the audacity to label her an anti-Islamic extremist. By attacking CAIR she proves that she is exactly that. It would be the equivalent of condemning the NAACP for racism or La Raza for anti-Latino sentiment.
10
Hi Mr. Rosenbluth, I was wondering if you were aware of the troubling links between CAIR and Pro-Hamas and antisemitic organizations? In the past it has been criticized by the Anti-Defamation league for failing to directly condemn Hamas, as well as being close to groups that promote antisemitism.
23
I read your article this morning and I wanted to comment at that time, but this section was not available.
You are one incredible lady and I admire your work.
Please continue to expose the hypocrisies on the left as well as on the right.
As a leftie, one needs to be aware that we can not revere other religions and people so much that we over look their injustices to their own people and their prejudices of others.
Please continue to be a voice for the many who are ignored by the left and right.
You are one incredible lady and I admire your work.
Please continue to expose the hypocrisies on the left as well as on the right.
As a leftie, one needs to be aware that we can not revere other religions and people so much that we over look their injustices to their own people and their prejudices of others.
Please continue to be a voice for the many who are ignored by the left and right.
52
This is not the first time I have encountered the idea that the SPLC is merely a money-making scheme. There seems to be an effort on the right to undermine its credibility as it has tried to do to the "main stream media."
24
How about giving the SPLC space to respond to this opinion which essentially trashes the organization?
26
I think we need to hear from the SPLC on this. This is certainly a one-sided commentary, but those of us not totally familiar with these issues who support the SPLC for the good work that they do need to know more about these allegations.
24
"those of us not totally familiar with these issues who support the SPLC for the good work that they do need to know more about these allegations."
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is financed and promoted by the right wing Hoover Institution, a partisan "think tank" intent on wiping out progressive organizations like the SPLC. What more do you need to know?
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is financed and promoted by the right wing Hoover Institution, a partisan "think tank" intent on wiping out progressive organizations like the SPLC. What more do you need to know?
2
I won't give to the SLPC until this changes.
31
Why not wait until you read its response and then decide?
15
Why not read the links about Ms. Ali on the SPLC site - they're right.
2
SPLC long ago began listing anyone, and any organization they don't like as extremist.
28
If the KKK isn't extremist, what is? If Americans dressed in Nazi regalia chanting "Jews will not replace us" aren't extremists, who are?
8
Classic bait and switch. The author is not being called extremist for being against EXTREMIST Islam, genital mutiliation, sexism, rape, enslavement yadda yadda yadda but rather for her equating ALL Islam with violence and extremism, rhetoric that is dangerous to muslims living peacefully in this country and elsewhere. I have worked with and been friends with muslims and never had one threaten me or try to convert me. Here is the SPLC statement about the author, which paints her as a darling of the right (AEI, CATO etc.) rather than a liberal.
https://www.splcenter.org/20161025/journalists-manual-field-guide-anti-m...
SPLC also paints her as a liar - "a Somali-born activist who says she endured female genital mutilation and fled civil wars and an arranged marriage in Africa. She then moved to the Netherlands and became a parliamentarian for a time. But key parts of the story she told Dutch immigration authorities and the public there turned out to be false — she had never witnessed any civil war, attendees said she was at her wedding despite her claim to have not been present, and her husband paid her way to Europe and later granted her a divorce. Leaving the Netherlands after quitting its Parliament in disgrace"
https://www.splcenter.org/20161025/journalists-manual-field-guide-anti-m...
SPLC also paints her as a liar - "a Somali-born activist who says she endured female genital mutilation and fled civil wars and an arranged marriage in Africa. She then moved to the Netherlands and became a parliamentarian for a time. But key parts of the story she told Dutch immigration authorities and the public there turned out to be false — she had never witnessed any civil war, attendees said she was at her wedding despite her claim to have not been present, and her husband paid her way to Europe and later granted her a divorce. Leaving the Netherlands after quitting its Parliament in disgrace"
19
I have to point out that this comment contains identical language to a pro SPLC comment further down the page. Are liberal groups putting out talking points in response to this op-ed? I find that deeply troubling, and I say this as a secular American liberal who grew up in the Middle East.
31
As a white man, I don't think it's my job to decide which women who grew up in Muslim communities are allowed to share their views on Islam. Nor do I think that's the job of the white men who serve as founder, president, and chair of the SPLC.
Rather, as white men, it is our job to advocate that all people of color and especially women of color have a greater voice in our politics and culture, even if not all those voices agree with each other. This is where I think the white men who hold all the leadership positions in the SPLC have gone wrong.
Rather, as white men, it is our job to advocate that all people of color and especially women of color have a greater voice in our politics and culture, even if not all those voices agree with each other. This is where I think the white men who hold all the leadership positions in the SPLC have gone wrong.
25
Want to do some good as a white man? Desegregate the NY City public schools.
About half the school age white students attend private schools. The majority of white students who do attend NY City public schools attend majority white schools. Your schools are the third most racially segregated in the county behind only Dallas and Chicago.
You could take a cue form other cities where white men were ordered to implement programs like busing for desegregation. Then you can lead the country by example. Your city is full of liberals and progressives so it shouldn't be that difficult. After you get that going come back to tell how all that worked out.
"Rather, as white men, it is our job to advocate that all people of color and especially women of color have a greater voice in our politics and culture...."
Right, you betcha.
About half the school age white students attend private schools. The majority of white students who do attend NY City public schools attend majority white schools. Your schools are the third most racially segregated in the county behind only Dallas and Chicago.
You could take a cue form other cities where white men were ordered to implement programs like busing for desegregation. Then you can lead the country by example. Your city is full of liberals and progressives so it shouldn't be that difficult. After you get that going come back to tell how all that worked out.
"Rather, as white men, it is our job to advocate that all people of color and especially women of color have a greater voice in our politics and culture...."
Right, you betcha.
As a white man, please tell me if it is your job to decide which white men are allowed to share their views.
11
Are these people citizens of the US? Ali and the other...??? I think the argument here basically supports the conservative right view on Muslim extremists...DO we really have that many extremists here in the US?...She is DUTCH/Somalian. The HOOVER INSTITUTE where Ali works probably is really into attacking SPLC...I was born here and I consider the white supremacists, KKK and Neo Nazis definitely more extreme and dangerous in the US..Yeah, I am a liberal and while I don't agree with conservative Islam at all (nor the far right Chistians) we do have freedom of religion here...or freedom from it if you choose...so Ali just sue the SPLC if you feel like they were slandering you but don't expect all of us to believe your viewpoint
8
The SPLC is an organization that deceitfully counted Omar Mateen's murder of 49 people at the Pulse Nightclub in Orlando last May as an instance of "right wing violence" so that they could continue to pretend that Islamist terrorism was not as significant a threat as that posed by American born neo-Nazis.
While I applaud the New York Times for belatedly publishing this piece, the reality is that the Times would have found that its credibility with readers would have improved if they had exposed the SPLC for what it has become before the election instead of waiting 9 months to do so. Donald Trump exaggerates and embellishes and often lies outright, but he is able to get away with doing so as often as he does because the public has realized that once revered organizations like the SPLC, and the Times, and CNN have become more interested in promoting and disseminating political narratives than in objectively reporting facts. The long term damage that has been done to the Times and to the SPLC through a tacit agreement to either mischaracterize crimes, or omit critical details so that their preferred narratives are supported has actually helped to give Trump and his fellow travelers credibility.
While I applaud the New York Times for belatedly publishing this piece, the reality is that the Times would have found that its credibility with readers would have improved if they had exposed the SPLC for what it has become before the election instead of waiting 9 months to do so. Donald Trump exaggerates and embellishes and often lies outright, but he is able to get away with doing so as often as he does because the public has realized that once revered organizations like the SPLC, and the Times, and CNN have become more interested in promoting and disseminating political narratives than in objectively reporting facts. The long term damage that has been done to the Times and to the SPLC through a tacit agreement to either mischaracterize crimes, or omit critical details so that their preferred narratives are supported has actually helped to give Trump and his fellow travelers credibility.
40
Amen. My biggest fears of a Trump presidency are being realized. Those fears are less about him, as loathsome (insert thousand word paragraph of reasons to oppose him) as he is, but because of the reaction. The media are playing into his hands.
9
I will look forward to a discussion by SPLC of this issue. I hope they will write in these pages detailing their rationale.
6
The SPLC will continue to survive, and even thrive, despite Hirsi Ali and her ilk. I will continue to support the Center in whatever way I can and I also question those who are so quick to withdraw their support for the SPLC based on one woman's propaganda.
12
Why isn't Ms. Ali fighting to save victimized women from extremist Islam instead of fighting to save American liberals from the SPLC? What's wrong with this picture?
10
That is what she usually is doing. She is responding about the organization's criticising her for such actions.
35
Thanks for the reminder: it's time to re-up my membership at SPLC.
14
Agreed. Ms. Ali and her extremist views are welcome by the ulta-right, and her second home in the Netherlands determined that her motives were far from pure. She says she travels with security and has the audacity to blame the SPLC, which is hardly an organization known for its legions of vigilantes. She exists to create lies and chaos, and I for one will continue supporting the good people of the SPLC rather than the likes of her. Ali would be welcome by the right wing extremists of this country because she shares their views, but for a few details of where she is from, her gender, and the color of her skin. How inconvenient for her.
Islam is a totalitarian religion that oppresses women and justifies violence against non-believers. Why would SPLC sanction such an ideology?
33
The more apt title surely would be, "Why is the SPLC Targeting Me (and Nawaz)?"
A quick glance at the SPLC website gives a good idea. Could a responding op-ed from them be in order? (Perhaps the Hoover Institution should weigh in, as well, just for balance.)
Regards,
JV
A quick glance at the SPLC website gives a good idea. Could a responding op-ed from them be in order? (Perhaps the Hoover Institution should weigh in, as well, just for balance.)
Regards,
JV
3
I've already discontinued my support for SPLC. I don't support any group that attacks atheists for criticizing religion.
35
For many years, I used to give more than chump change to the SPLC. I quit. I decided that I was no longer giving to any organization whose leadership made more than $250K a year. I don't make that kind of money. If you want to call yourself a "non-profit," then act like one. (If you can make more than $250K practicing law, then do it.) Also, around eight years ago, the SPLC started tagging any group or persons who were in favor of LEGAL immigration as being xenophobic racists. Sorry, I support LEGAL immigration. As far as Ms. Ali is concerned, I read her first book. Much of what she has said has been borne out to be true. On a personal level, Islam has given her a very rough ride. She's got an axe to grind. But, Is she a hater? I don't see it.
40
It certainly is confusing when a highly respected institution in our country is viciously attacked by an editorial writer in the NYT. I guess that is the price of freedom of expression, that one must occasionally have a flaming editorial that is totally at loggerheads with the views of progressives everywhere. I am not sure what can be done about this, perhaps it is enough to have comments on such articles so people can inform themselves about the bizarre claims in the article and the person writing it. Judging from the comments, some readers were sufficiently convinced that the SPLC was indeed off track that they threatened to cancel their financial support. My guess is that these comments are not actually from former supporters of the SPLC, but rather from trolls looking to support the bizarre framework of the writer.
7
Maybe the SPLC is targeting her for being an Islamaphobe.
Even wonderful liberal people can hate - the right wing doesn't cover the market on that.
Even wonderful liberal people can hate - the right wing doesn't cover the market on that.
6
Having recently read her 2006 autobiography "Infidel" has helped me see this article in perspective. Ms. Hirsi Ali was subjected to many abuses rooted in traditional Islam (genital mutilation, denied education as a girl, forced marriage which drove her to Holland as a refugee, death threats motivated by her writings) so it's easy to understand why she feels Islam as a religion is a threat.
For those of us who understand that Islam has many peaceful, tolerant, progressive adherents, we understand why the SPLC targets groups that promote certain practices and beliefs, but not Islam as a whole.
Many religions in the world have turned away from traditional, archaic practices in favor of more inclusive tolerant modern policies. Islam is in the process of doing the same.
So I can sympathize with Ms. Hirsi Ali and agree with her views on FGM, forced marriage, etc., while also supporting the SPLC and it's policies on targeting hate. I've been a contributor to the SPLC for decades, and look forward to continuing to support their work.
For those of us who understand that Islam has many peaceful, tolerant, progressive adherents, we understand why the SPLC targets groups that promote certain practices and beliefs, but not Islam as a whole.
Many religions in the world have turned away from traditional, archaic practices in favor of more inclusive tolerant modern policies. Islam is in the process of doing the same.
So I can sympathize with Ms. Hirsi Ali and agree with her views on FGM, forced marriage, etc., while also supporting the SPLC and it's policies on targeting hate. I've been a contributor to the SPLC for decades, and look forward to continuing to support their work.
8
But dont you think being in the process is thanks to women like her, who challenge it?
9
This is super irritating. After reading this and thinking 'oh what now', I looked into both Ayaan and Maajid. It took me about 2 seconds to see that they are all about putting forth polemics, as opposed to contributing constructive or critical ideas. That is to say, they are not offering up any ideas that require us to consider the ambiguities and complexities of every situation, to learn from each other, to develop empathy for one another. And I looked at the article Ms. Hirsi Ali referenced (published by SPLC). It is specifically designated for media outlets – simply to give a heads-up before inviting these people to appear on a program because they tend to put forth polarizing, and possibly even destructive views.
9
Is Maajid Nawaz actually suing SPLC, as this piece says? I know he told Bill Maher over a month ago that he was going to sue the organization, but I have not seen any articles indicating that he has actually done so.
As much as I may disagree with SPLC on this, I think he will have a hard time holding SPLC liable for its opinion that that his positions are hateful, as long as the positions themselves are accurately described. If a lawsuit has already been filed, I would love to see the complaint.
As much as I may disagree with SPLC on this, I think he will have a hard time holding SPLC liable for its opinion that that his positions are hateful, as long as the positions themselves are accurately described. If a lawsuit has already been filed, I would love to see the complaint.
1
Extremism of any kind, right or left, is anathema to a civil society and should be called out. If white supremacists are being (rightly) vilified publicly by people of influence, so should Muslim extremism. Exposing the true nature of so-called "angry white males" in no way offends me or conflates me with them. Same is true for Muslim extremists.
This doesn't overlook the discrimination faced by many Muslims, in part a reaction to the prevalence of extremists of their own faith. But I for one am not worried about hurting the feelings of decent people if it raises awareness of the problem at the extremes. Get control of that problem and the former problem goes away. Liberals (and I am waay liberal) don't seem to be worried about hurting feelings of decent white males in casting a critical light on gun-totin, foaming-at-the-mouth, ignorant bubbas. What's the difference?
This doesn't overlook the discrimination faced by many Muslims, in part a reaction to the prevalence of extremists of their own faith. But I for one am not worried about hurting the feelings of decent people if it raises awareness of the problem at the extremes. Get control of that problem and the former problem goes away. Liberals (and I am waay liberal) don't seem to be worried about hurting feelings of decent white males in casting a critical light on gun-totin, foaming-at-the-mouth, ignorant bubbas. What's the difference?
13
There have been a number of exposes on the SPLC’s finances, marketing, and hucksterism published in mainstream and “liberal” media. Long aarticles on this can be found in Politico, The Atlantic, Harper's, etc. The local Montgomery newspaper years back was a Pulitzer Prize finalist for its investigative reporting on SPLC’s murky finances, excessive compensation, dubious targeting, and other questionable practices. SPLC has an endowment of well over $300 million. And the cash registers have been ever since the white supremacists marched in Charlottesville. Prospective contributors would do well to read the SPLC annual report, which can be found on its web site.
26
The SPLC continues to win numerous lawsuits in defense of the defenseless; they are the most reliable source of information about white supremacy movements in the United States; they have earned the respect and esteem in which they are held.
10
The neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and other groups in Charlottesville were almost all white Christians. Now imagine someone used that fact to tell you that Christianity is actually the problem – that Christianity is inherently violent, and that all right-wing violence is due to a flaw in Christianity itself. Imagine if they then said that Christianity is un-American and must be eradicated. That would be laughably absurd and extreme.
The New York Times would never give a platform to someone with those views. Yet here is Ms. Ali, using that same logic to equate ISIS and Al Queda with all of Islam. Her ideas would also be laughable if they weren't so dangerous.
The SPLC is right to include Ms. Ali on their list of hate peddlers. The New York Times is wrong to allow Ms. Ali to publish this article without a retraction of the many extremist statements she has made in the past.
The New York Times would never give a platform to someone with those views. Yet here is Ms. Ali, using that same logic to equate ISIS and Al Queda with all of Islam. Her ideas would also be laughable if they weren't so dangerous.
The SPLC is right to include Ms. Ali on their list of hate peddlers. The New York Times is wrong to allow Ms. Ali to publish this article without a retraction of the many extremist statements she has made in the past.
11
You owe it to yourself to read more about Ms. Ali's past conduct before judging SPLC. She has many valid criticisms of extremists, but cannot restrain herself from tarring all of Islam as "a destructive, nihilistic cult of death."
This may keep her funded by AEI and the Hoover Institute, but it is evidence she never intended to improve things, just to yell in anger.
This may keep her funded by AEI and the Hoover Institute, but it is evidence she never intended to improve things, just to yell in anger.
10
The title of this article gives you an idea of the agenda it contains. There is nothing 'liberal' specific in this issue. SPLC isn't necessarily a 'liberal' cause, it is, like the ACLU, about justice an protection for people who are threatened. If a representative of the Hoover Institute starts chattering about 'liberals' being 'targeted', I'd take it with a grain of salt.
11
The bottom line is that almost all the commenters here have zero credibility as commentators on the state of the Muslim world today, while Ayaan Hirsi Ali has enormous credibility. Many on the left take comfort in the small-town parochialism of their opponents. But generosity and sympathy can also be extended small-mindedly, and it is that astonishing American parochialism, that sheer instinctive belief that everywhere is really like America, that knee-jerk assumption that American values and norms apply in all countries and all times, that is on show here. Look at the facts that Ali is telling you. It's your only chance to see beyond your very small paradigm. You might not like what you see - it might challenge your most cherished truisms - but that's why you need to see it.
31
The SPLC is a corrupt and dreadful organization today. They began well. However, today they call NumbersUSA (an organization that advocates for lower immigration), FAIR (same thing), and a number of other political action groups "hate groups". They also call the KKK and the American Nazi Party "hate groups". When everything you dislike is a "hate group", the word has no meaning. They have politicized a moral issue. This is not acceptable, and no one should pay any attention to these clowns.
24
So I read Ms. Ali's interview with reason.com and SPLC's subsequent profile of Ali quoting that interview. The SPLC's quote was fair and in context. Unfortunately, Ms. Ali really did call for "Islam" to be "defeated". When asked whether "defeated" means "militarily", Ali responded, "in all forms", and when asked "don't you mean *radical* Islam?" She responded, "No. Islam, period." I'm sorry, but I think it reasonable that SPLC consider this "extremist".
I can imagine scenarios in which Ms. Ali could say such things without meaning harm to the peaceful Muslims I know, but if such be the case, she should correct her on-the-record statements before attacking the SPLC for accurately quoting her.
The interview: http://reason.com/archives/2007/10/10/the-trouble-is-the-west/4
I can imagine scenarios in which Ms. Ali could say such things without meaning harm to the peaceful Muslims I know, but if such be the case, she should correct her on-the-record statements before attacking the SPLC for accurately quoting her.
The interview: http://reason.com/archives/2007/10/10/the-trouble-is-the-west/4
15
Ayaan Hirsi Ali has a good point but the SPLC is not an international organization. It is an American organization. And as an American, it looks to me like we are a lot more threatened by home-grown white supremacist hate groups than by Islamic radicals, who are largely imported and easier for the FBI to target and thwart. Let's work on the greater threat. Maybe donations should go to the ACLU, which I've never known to be particularly biased.
3
Are the Koch brothers, or others, underwriting Ms. Hirsi's opinion? I certainly have my opinions of we have come to call 'extreme' Islamic tenets. And all of us could do with regular and probing 'self-criticism'. But Ms. Hirsi's diatribe against the SPLC sounds disingenuous to me, and fostered by something other than her personal situation. Sorry, Ms. Hirsi, your complaints ring hollow.
4
As always, Ms. Hirsi nails it. One single attack by white supremacists and the country freaks out, Muslim extremists routinely kill people every week and nope, everything's fine, don't worry about it, "Don't you know more people die from _______ than Muslim terrorists?", and so on. Ms. Hirsi has every single quality to be a hero of the left - she's black, she's a woman, she's from a foreign country, she's educated, she had a rough childhood, but because she criticizes Islam she's immediately disqualified. It's a shame. If every liberal in this country had her brains and courage, we probably wouldn't be stuck with Trump, and instead be on our second Democrat president in a row.
25
Annoyed.
Just a little sleuthing turns up quite a lot of inflammatory rhetoric coming from Ms. Ali - not just the kind of criticism of Islam that might be found coming from Sam Harris, Bill Maher, or for that matter, Maajid Nawaz and a variety of other people, raised as Muslims, who advocate reform. Her criticisms have appeared to be the kind that paints with a broad brush, and stokes desires to "fight" (not just with words but violent action) more than just jihadists, but any and every Muslim, with rhetoric more in line with what comes out of Fox News shows than with liberals who see a problem with Islamic fundamentalism. That seems to be why she made it onto SLPC's list: She stokes the scary stereotypes as much as she calls out genuinely objectionable practices.
What is disturbing is that the Times would publish a piece that so blatantly omits the quotes that SPLC uses to make its case. Readers are left to wonder about "he said, she said" practices of the NYTimes. Apparently, there is no need to present complete information, and that it is just fine to print one sided opinion pieces that conveniently leave out the information most relevant to the issue.
Good practice would be to make a genuine attempt at balance by offering SPLC space to print a rebuttal piece next to Ms. Ali's, so that readers would have a better understanding of the dispute. Readers don't get that understanding when the Times publishes stand-alone self-dealing pieces like this, without corrections.
Just a little sleuthing turns up quite a lot of inflammatory rhetoric coming from Ms. Ali - not just the kind of criticism of Islam that might be found coming from Sam Harris, Bill Maher, or for that matter, Maajid Nawaz and a variety of other people, raised as Muslims, who advocate reform. Her criticisms have appeared to be the kind that paints with a broad brush, and stokes desires to "fight" (not just with words but violent action) more than just jihadists, but any and every Muslim, with rhetoric more in line with what comes out of Fox News shows than with liberals who see a problem with Islamic fundamentalism. That seems to be why she made it onto SLPC's list: She stokes the scary stereotypes as much as she calls out genuinely objectionable practices.
What is disturbing is that the Times would publish a piece that so blatantly omits the quotes that SPLC uses to make its case. Readers are left to wonder about "he said, she said" practices of the NYTimes. Apparently, there is no need to present complete information, and that it is just fine to print one sided opinion pieces that conveniently leave out the information most relevant to the issue.
Good practice would be to make a genuine attempt at balance by offering SPLC space to print a rebuttal piece next to Ms. Ali's, so that readers would have a better understanding of the dispute. Readers don't get that understanding when the Times publishes stand-alone self-dealing pieces like this, without corrections.
14
Unlike President of the Electoral College Trump who thinks there are good people who are Nazis or belong to the KKK when if you belong to or support those organizations, you are definitely NOT a good person, I believe that there are good people who are members of all religions. Unfortunately in the United States, it is not considered acceptable to speak out against religion as an institution, the harm they do, and the evils they get SOME of their members to commit. Unlike Trump, who sees no difference between Nazis and those who protest and fight against Nazis, it is not hate speech to speak out against the hatred that is preached, the human rights abuses enacted into law in many Muslim countries, and the atrocities that are committed by some Muslims. I stand with you Ms. Hirsi Ali. Please keep up your good work.
5
Instead of spending her time and energy fighting for the rights of oppressed Muslim women, Ms. Ali is fighting the SPLC (and claiming to do so on behalf of liberals!) There is something wrong with her agenda, perhaps because she has been bought and paid for by a famous right wing think tank.
How thoroughly discredited does a conservative "plant" have to be before the Times stops publishing her?
How thoroughly discredited does a conservative "plant" have to be before the Times stops publishing her?
9
The Southern Poverty Law Center has come under increasing criticism. See "Has a Civil Rights Stalwart Lost Its Way?" in POLITICO. http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/06/28/morris-dees-splc-trump...
SPLC once published an unfair attack on a historian of Poland that had nothing to do with the South, Poverty, or the Law. Talk about losing your way!
SPLC once published an unfair attack on a historian of Poland that had nothing to do with the South, Poverty, or the Law. Talk about losing your way!
16
There is a simple reason the SPLC doesn't track Muslim extremists in this country, it's because our government identifies them as terrorists and already focuses immense resources on stopping them. Less attention is paid to the hate groups the SPLC monitors, and I appreciate their efforts in that area. Ms. Hirsi certainly has a right to her opinions, but when they demonize large groups of people they deserve to be called out. The most recent FBI statistics on hate crimes against Muslims in the U.S. showed a spike of 67% more crimes being committed against them. It would be nice if Ms. Hirsi spent some time talking about that problem, instead of contributing to it, by inflaming prejudices.
5
We hardly hesitate to criticize Christian fundamentalists and their illiberal influence on society. Yet the comments here by many well-intentioned progressives prove Ms. Ali's point: there is a glaring blind spot when it comes to calling out the regressive doctrines and practices of Islam. Groups like CAIR, despite disingenuous defenses by some commenters here, goes even further down the wrong path, effectively defending Islamism in case after case. Then, when real liberals point out their wrongheadedness, they simply scream ISLAMAPHOBE!!
But Islam is not a race. It's a religion - a set of ideas. We should always be unsparing when criticizing bad ideas, be they Christian, Muslim, conservative, or progressive.
But Islam is not a race. It's a religion - a set of ideas. We should always be unsparing when criticizing bad ideas, be they Christian, Muslim, conservative, or progressive.
26
Bengals10Violet102601
Countless Muslims in America who have been targeted for violence and discrimination just because they are Muslim, and the cause of these hateful acts are justified by calling their victims terrorists. People who are trying to harm American Muslims begin their arguments by talking about terrorism. Ignoring peaceful normal Muslims and labeling them as a whole, as terrorists and extremists . Both of these conflations are wrong. And everyone has a right to live in peace and harmony , free from discrimination and oppression, Muslims very much included.
Countless Muslims in America who have been targeted for violence and discrimination just because they are Muslim, and the cause of these hateful acts are justified by calling their victims terrorists. People who are trying to harm American Muslims begin their arguments by talking about terrorism. Ignoring peaceful normal Muslims and labeling them as a whole, as terrorists and extremists . Both of these conflations are wrong. And everyone has a right to live in peace and harmony , free from discrimination and oppression, Muslims very much included.
Why do I get the idea that the writer is angry because she is not on the receiving end of donations?
4
From SPLC website
"Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a Somali-born activist who says she endured female genital mutilation and fled civil wars and an arranged marriage in Africa. She then moved to the Netherlands and became a parliamentarian for a time. But key parts of the story she told Dutch immigration authorities and the public there turned out to be false—she had never witnessed any civil war, attendees said she was at her wedding despite her claim to have not been present, and her husband paid her way to Europe and later granted her a divorce. Leaving the Netherlands after quitting its Parliament in disgrace, Hirsi Ali became a citizen of the United States, accepting an invitation to join the conservative American Enterprise Institute. Although she now positions herself as an ex-Muslim champion of women’s rights, her anti-Muslim rhetoric is remarkably toxic. In 2007, she told Reason magazine that the West should “defeat” Islam and that “we are war with Islam.” The same year, she said that Islam was “the new fascism” and a “destructive, nihilistic cult of death” in an interview with The London Evening Standard. In 2014, Brandeis University withdrew its offer of an honorary degree for her, saying that it had been unaware of her vitriolic attacks on Islam...."
"Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a Somali-born activist who says she endured female genital mutilation and fled civil wars and an arranged marriage in Africa. She then moved to the Netherlands and became a parliamentarian for a time. But key parts of the story she told Dutch immigration authorities and the public there turned out to be false—she had never witnessed any civil war, attendees said she was at her wedding despite her claim to have not been present, and her husband paid her way to Europe and later granted her a divorce. Leaving the Netherlands after quitting its Parliament in disgrace, Hirsi Ali became a citizen of the United States, accepting an invitation to join the conservative American Enterprise Institute. Although she now positions herself as an ex-Muslim champion of women’s rights, her anti-Muslim rhetoric is remarkably toxic. In 2007, she told Reason magazine that the West should “defeat” Islam and that “we are war with Islam.” The same year, she said that Islam was “the new fascism” and a “destructive, nihilistic cult of death” in an interview with The London Evening Standard. In 2014, Brandeis University withdrew its offer of an honorary degree for her, saying that it had been unaware of her vitriolic attacks on Islam...."
4
The SPLC has a bit of a problem when it takes on people who speak out against various religions - because many religious doctrines can be seen as discriminatory. This is especially true when you look at how the vast majority of religions treat women and members of the LGBTQ community (eg. Hobby Lobby decision, religiously affiliated colleges being able to opt of title IX, and gender segregation). Everyone should be able to voice their concerns when any religion or philosophy is anti-equality.
17
Every American citizen should be grateful for the honest and necessary work of the Southern Poverty Law Center. This organization has been the conscience of our country since its founding, exposing grave injustices and violence against innocent Americans and often successfully finding justice in the courts. Ayaan Hirsi Ali and other critics are poorly informed.
7
This doesn't even make sense. They have blacklisted her. She doesn't think she deserves the label. Even if you agree with what the SLPC has done with Ms. Ali, how is she poorly informed?
9
Trying to avoid the word, "lying," I expect.
1
This woman makes money off her opinions, as far as I can tell. When she has done a some honest work I may listen to her, but until then, she is to me an elite out of touch narcissist. We got a LOT of that type, these days..
7
As opposed to the Editorial Board of the NYT which bakes bread?
15
Based on what I know about him, I am surprised that SPLC calls Nawaz an extremist. But many of Hirsi Ali's claims here––like the notion that liberals "take the side" of Islamist terrorists––are suspect at best. Hirsi Ali has come under condemnation from some progressives because of the harsh and sweeping condemnations she has made about the religion of Islam itself. To criticize her attack on a world religion is not to "take the side" of terrorists.
It's pretty simple. The SPLC is an organization that puts special emphasis on minority groups in the US who are vulnerable to demonization and attack. Law-abiding American Muslims are vulnerable to hate crimes, and blanket denunciations of their religion makes them more vulnerable.
It's pretty simple. The SPLC is an organization that puts special emphasis on minority groups in the US who are vulnerable to demonization and attack. Law-abiding American Muslims are vulnerable to hate crimes, and blanket denunciations of their religion makes them more vulnerable.
11
Your rhetoric is a lie, Ms Ali. You pander to all of the stereotypical fears of Islam and those who spread these sterotypes about, feedng the fears of the willfully and woefully ignorant. And you do not speak for the muslim women or men I know. Not by a long shot.
I'm sure you have your reasons based on your personal experiences for your anger. It seems to me that you've got a personal vendetta going. And it reminded me, my step-mother was a Muslim for a period in her life long ago. She converted for the love of a man. The relationship was not a happy one, and I believe he was abusive. She thus turned against the religion after having left him. But it wasn't the religion; it was the man. I think she has come to realise it now--I hope she has.
Who knows? Perhaps you'll defeat your personal demons one day and stop spreading your brand of hateful propaganda.
I'm sure you have your reasons based on your personal experiences for your anger. It seems to me that you've got a personal vendetta going. And it reminded me, my step-mother was a Muslim for a period in her life long ago. She converted for the love of a man. The relationship was not a happy one, and I believe he was abusive. She thus turned against the religion after having left him. But it wasn't the religion; it was the man. I think she has come to realise it now--I hope she has.
Who knows? Perhaps you'll defeat your personal demons one day and stop spreading your brand of hateful propaganda.
7
As an atheist, I think all religions are malarky. All of them have sects that are misogynist and/racist. Ms. Ali makes the claim that all Muslims are potential terrorists. This is simply silly, as it is equally true of the three Abrahamic religions in particular.
Just because the SPLC calls her out on this stance does not mean they are targeting liberals. The fact that she is a research fellow for conservative "think tank" does not lend much credibility to her claim of being a liberal. Actually, calling for the crushing of Islam in it's entirety doesn't help either.
Just because the SPLC calls her out on this stance does not mean they are targeting liberals. The fact that she is a research fellow for conservative "think tank" does not lend much credibility to her claim of being a liberal. Actually, calling for the crushing of Islam in it's entirety doesn't help either.
11
Thank you Ayaan for saying what needs to be said. One person said, I am Muslim. People say, I am a Christian. These are adjectives. I am, you are, we all are human beings. Most were exposed, indoctrinated since birth, to one form of religion or another. That does not make them the religion. Most have never met anyone who questioned the religion they were indoctrinated into. Most are unaware of the evolution of religion. Most do not know that Homo erectus was likely religious to the extent that they buried their dead. Most accept that humans created gods and goddesses, when the gods and goddesses apply to a religion not practiced by their peers. We humans continue to kill each other in the name of gods and religions that we invented. My wish is that the words of John Lennon begin to ring true for more and more people. Nothing to kill and die for.
11
I received a research article from Encyclopaedia Britannica, Inc. years ago that in part states:
"The four ‘acts of devotion’ - prayer, the payment of zakat, the pilgrimage and fasting during Ramadan, together with shahada or profession of faith - form the five Pillars of Islam.
In addition to the five Pillars, Muslims are enjoined to jihad. This means ‘striving’ or ‘exerting oneself’, in the Way of God. Today jihad is usually translated as ‘holy war’, although there is nothing in the word to indicate that the striving is to be carried out by the sword or the tongue or any other method. What the Koran does say (ii, 190) is: ‘And fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you but be not aggressive. Surely Allah loves not the aggressive.’ Fighting is clearly limited to fighting in defense. The only apparent exceptions are in Koran ix, 5, where the context of the command to ‘slay the idolaters’ shows that the reference is to idolatrous tribes of Arabia assembled at the Pilgrimage, who had first made agreements with the Muslims and then violated them and in Koran ix, 29 where the Faithful are enjoined to fight ‘those who have received the Book’ (i.e. Jews and Christians) but ‘believe not in God nor in the Last Day’. Nowhere does the Koran command Muslims to propagate their faith by the sword."
Is there a Mohammedan that can refute that last paragraph?
What do you do with a twisted sister?
"The four ‘acts of devotion’ - prayer, the payment of zakat, the pilgrimage and fasting during Ramadan, together with shahada or profession of faith - form the five Pillars of Islam.
In addition to the five Pillars, Muslims are enjoined to jihad. This means ‘striving’ or ‘exerting oneself’, in the Way of God. Today jihad is usually translated as ‘holy war’, although there is nothing in the word to indicate that the striving is to be carried out by the sword or the tongue or any other method. What the Koran does say (ii, 190) is: ‘And fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you but be not aggressive. Surely Allah loves not the aggressive.’ Fighting is clearly limited to fighting in defense. The only apparent exceptions are in Koran ix, 5, where the context of the command to ‘slay the idolaters’ shows that the reference is to idolatrous tribes of Arabia assembled at the Pilgrimage, who had first made agreements with the Muslims and then violated them and in Koran ix, 29 where the Faithful are enjoined to fight ‘those who have received the Book’ (i.e. Jews and Christians) but ‘believe not in God nor in the Last Day’. Nowhere does the Koran command Muslims to propagate their faith by the sword."
Is there a Mohammedan that can refute that last paragraph?
What do you do with a twisted sister?
1
""Now let us correct some mistakes in the 'question' itself. There is not such a meaning in the Quran, ordering or even permitting the Muslims to ever attack innocent people whether they are Christians, Jews, or any other faith for that matter.
Combat is only ordered against those who are attacking or killing the innocent Muslims or fighting against the established Muslim state."
http://www.justaskislam.com/32/does-islam-say-kill-the-infidels/
So, that's all right then.
Combat is only ordered against those who are attacking or killing the innocent Muslims or fighting against the established Muslim state."
http://www.justaskislam.com/32/does-islam-say-kill-the-infidels/
So, that's all right then.
I MIGHT taken this more seriously if Ayaan Hirsi Ali had not ignored ALL of the good that the SPLC has done in undermining the KKK and other rightwing groups by going after their wallets and pocketbooks. I also notice she a fellow at the right leaning Hoover Institute which also makes me question her motives...
7
This whole argument just pleads for more detail, rebuttal and counter-argument, with facts. SPLC has done great work, but just as importantly, their thinking is sound and sane and careful. I want to hear their side of this, and see Ms. Hirsi's quotes. But for the record: I consider myself a solid leftist and feminist and have no use for Islamic extremism and don't know anyone of my political persuasion who does. If this is one of these internecine leftist ideological food-fights, just stop it. I have no trouble calling out extremism of any ilk, but that doesn't mean I'm her ally, just because she presents her self as some sort of martyr to that cause. I need to hear from SPLC. In the meantime, again, for the record: most American leftists, out here in the hinterlands (of suburban Washington DC, but probably elsewhere too), have no trouble repudiating Sharia law. Does the Hoover Institution want to promote the notion that they do?
5
Ms. Hirsi is a Trojan horse of the right-wing bigots and ideologues who are intent on weakening the SPLC, their prize exhibit in denouncing Islam, not only Islamic extremists and terrorists. Before any potential donor is persuaded by her, it would be important to read the actual quotes from Ms. Hirsi on the SPLC profile for her.
12
This "OpEd" is a timely reminder to renew my support for the Southern Poverty Law Center. There are so many bogus insinuations in this short piece. Chiefly, that the so-called "liberals" are soft on Islamic terror, even closet sympathizers. Just, like the McCarthy era, soft on communism. One paragraph of this diatribe relates recent atrocities. Then, this: " when I point out such facts, I am viciously attacked and threatened by those who are dedicated to Islamic extremism". Entire news cycles around the planet are devoted to "such facts" most recently Barcelona! Then, in regard to the SPLC she inquires: Who really benefits from their activities? I would answer: generations of Americans, all Americans, all colors, all creeds. You are the company you keep and the vile mob at Charlottesville as evidenced by their speech and writing sharing the indiscriminate anti-Muslim agenda of the author no matter how much she has seemed to moderate her views recently. There were two centuries of anti-Catholic hysteria in the history of the USA; let's not make this the century of anti-Muslim hysterics.
9
Thank you Ms. Ali. I've read 2 of your books & know that your are not an 'extremist', unless that means extremely committed to the cause of justice.
23
Apologies, just realized that I made a mistake. The link is valid for Field Guide to Anti-Muslim Extremists, but Ayaan is correct that there is no link to "Field Guide to Muslim Extremists. My mistake.
8
It's telling that simply pointing out some basic truths about the fundamental tenets and practice of Islam, as Hirsi Ali has done, can get oneself branded as an extremist.
Pointing out that those who follow the religious text most closely are also the most dangerous doesn't connote Islamophobia, but a rational appraisal of the evidence. The latest events in Spain show all too clearly how young minds can be poisoned.
Moderate Muslims must take the lead in the reformation of their religion. It is long overdue.
Pointing out that those who follow the religious text most closely are also the most dangerous doesn't connote Islamophobia, but a rational appraisal of the evidence. The latest events in Spain show all too clearly how young minds can be poisoned.
Moderate Muslims must take the lead in the reformation of their religion. It is long overdue.
21
One's first instinct is to reflexively dismiss criticism of the Southern Poverty Law Center. It seems to be an excellent and fearless organization.
This is the kind of opinion piece that one appreciates. It should cause many of us to examine the organization and its criticism of the author.
I vaguely recollect that this person reminds me of Sinead O'Connor. I can't remember why....must look into it.
This is the kind of opinion piece that one appreciates. It should cause many of us to examine the organization and its criticism of the author.
I vaguely recollect that this person reminds me of Sinead O'Connor. I can't remember why....must look into it.
5
You are a courageous woman. Keep fighting and keep writing.
28
For reference, here is a link to the Southern Poverty Law Center's composition on Ms. Hirsi.
I am not equipped to question the specific and presumably verifiable details, so will let the passages speak for themselves.
https://www.splcenter.org/20161025/journalists-manual-field-guide-anti-m...
I am not equipped to question the specific and presumably verifiable details, so will let the passages speak for themselves.
https://www.splcenter.org/20161025/journalists-manual-field-guide-anti-m...
7
Thanks, NY Times, for bringing another article by Ms Hirsi to these pages. The wonderful comments to this piece is the the best proof I can provide to show that you (NY Times) did the correct decision. Perhaps, the spirit of Enlightenment, which has been in retreat for sometime now, may guide us in these troublesome times
Thanks again
Thanks again
29
I don't know if the author is liberal or not, but I find it weird so many comments here assert that because she is affiliated with the Hoover Institution she must be conservative. What if all the liberal think tanks (which are mostly run by white men) didn't want to hire this woman of color because she didn't share their particular take on liberalism, and the Hoover Institution was the only place that would take her? I don't know if that's the case or not, but I'm not comfortable with questioning her ideology based on where she could get a job.
33
You have a point to a point.
Whether she's conservative or not is immaterial. I suspect the Hoover Institution employs her because of her anti-Islamic status. You can discover more here: https://www.splcenter.org/20161025/journalists-manual-field-guide-anti-m...
Whether she's conservative or not is immaterial. I suspect the Hoover Institution employs her because of her anti-Islamic status. You can discover more here: https://www.splcenter.org/20161025/journalists-manual-field-guide-anti-m...
2
YEP, she works for the HOOVER INSTITUTE ....a very conservative think tank...that makes me suspicious of her viewpoint
Hirsi Ali is not liberal. Her associations with the absurdist Hoover Institution (President Great Depression) have little to do with peoples' opinions on her.
4
She conflates Islam with terrorism/extremism. It's the same old argument. If anyone is cynical, it's her. I wished the eclipse would come back so I can stare into it.
8
This is a chop piece on SPLC...she works for a far right think tank....Muslims are free to debate in the US so I don't really understand her viewpoint...Is she a citizen here? I feel we really don't need to be embroiled with the international movement to reform Islam...here in the US...She is probably in favor of the anti Sharia movement--a dog whistle here in the US for anti muslim of all kinds...the far right christians have their own sharia laws...none of these are legal in our court system if you bring a case there
2
so, so, very refreshing. Thank you for the Op-Ed contribution.
33
In this article, the author asks why she is on the SPLC's list for speaking out against Islamic extremism. However:
I agree that it would be wrong for the SPLC to condemn someone who speaks out against Islamic extremism. But she's not *just* doing that. In her own words, she's called for Islam--the entire religion--to be "defeated."
Quotes:
"If you look at 70% of the violence in the world today, Muslims are responsible."
"Violence is inherent in Islam."
Via SPLC, "And she told her interviewer that it wasn’t only “radical Islam” that needed to be defeated, saying, “No. Islam, period. Once it’s defeated, it can mutate into something peaceful. It’s very difficult to even talk about peace now. They’re not interested in peace.”
So which is it? Is she being persecuted for speaking out against extremism, or is she herself persecuting an entire religion? By her logic, should we call Christianity an extreme religion that should be defeated because the Westboro Baptist Church exists?
I agree that it would be wrong for the SPLC to condemn someone who speaks out against Islamic extremism. But she's not *just* doing that. In her own words, she's called for Islam--the entire religion--to be "defeated."
Quotes:
"If you look at 70% of the violence in the world today, Muslims are responsible."
"Violence is inherent in Islam."
Via SPLC, "And she told her interviewer that it wasn’t only “radical Islam” that needed to be defeated, saying, “No. Islam, period. Once it’s defeated, it can mutate into something peaceful. It’s very difficult to even talk about peace now. They’re not interested in peace.”
So which is it? Is she being persecuted for speaking out against extremism, or is she herself persecuting an entire religion? By her logic, should we call Christianity an extreme religion that should be defeated because the Westboro Baptist Church exists?
22
I think your thesis is this: Islam is in need of a "reformation" to rid itself of its unacceptable views/practices with respect to women, gays, infidels, execution for trivial offences, etc. Radical terrorism arises directly from this lack of reformation; as such, the extreme tenets of Islam must be removed or Islamic radical terrorism will not cease.
I see the problem for Western liberals as this: in civil society none of the extremes of Islam are legally permissible. The step you would have us take is: in a Country that guarantees freedom of religion "we" must now reform Islam. However, Christianity did not undergo its reformation because of Muslim critique. Our civil society IS the critique. I may not be doing a great job in laying this out...but the bottom line is this: I am not sufficiently aware of your speeches/writings (I will give it my time soon) to determine whether "hate speech" applies to you or not but, based on this op-ed, you do yourself and your goal of reformation a disservice. I cannot accept that the way to battle radical terrorism is to call on Western liberals to take it upon themselves to tear apart Islam as a faith. That approach, coupled with invasions, bombings, civilian maimings and deaths will, I think, end in the opposite result you seem to seek. But "reformation" may not be what you seek: you label Islam a "death cult" so perhaps its total eradication is what you seek? I don't think an 'honest conversation' was had in this op-ed.
I see the problem for Western liberals as this: in civil society none of the extremes of Islam are legally permissible. The step you would have us take is: in a Country that guarantees freedom of religion "we" must now reform Islam. However, Christianity did not undergo its reformation because of Muslim critique. Our civil society IS the critique. I may not be doing a great job in laying this out...but the bottom line is this: I am not sufficiently aware of your speeches/writings (I will give it my time soon) to determine whether "hate speech" applies to you or not but, based on this op-ed, you do yourself and your goal of reformation a disservice. I cannot accept that the way to battle radical terrorism is to call on Western liberals to take it upon themselves to tear apart Islam as a faith. That approach, coupled with invasions, bombings, civilian maimings and deaths will, I think, end in the opposite result you seem to seek. But "reformation" may not be what you seek: you label Islam a "death cult" so perhaps its total eradication is what you seek? I don't think an 'honest conversation' was had in this op-ed.
17
So the world should have waited for apartheid South Africa to reform itself and not offered any external criticism for fear that it would make things worse?
7
It is undeniable that religion is responsible for the most intractable conflicts in the world. (Our secular enemies Japan and Germany are now our strongest allies.)
Ayaan Hirsi Ali has committed the unpardonable (in America) sin of being secular, and criticizing Islam, a major world religion, when it goes off the rails. For that she has been isolated, threatened, and bullied.
As John Lennon immortally wrote, "Imagine no religion." You will see immediately that the threat of radical Islam must then cease to exist.
We must stop our unwillingness to discuss such matters publicly, and defend the right of brave souls like Ali to express such views.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali has committed the unpardonable (in America) sin of being secular, and criticizing Islam, a major world religion, when it goes off the rails. For that she has been isolated, threatened, and bullied.
As John Lennon immortally wrote, "Imagine no religion." You will see immediately that the threat of radical Islam must then cease to exist.
We must stop our unwillingness to discuss such matters publicly, and defend the right of brave souls like Ali to express such views.
33
She might get paid for her anti Islam stance....Hoover Institutes????
Can we please deal with facts and history and not fantasy. Let's go back to when Islam was founded by the Prophet Mohammed in the 7th century. By all accounts he was not a bad guy, certainly a man of his era who forged a religion much like the Christians had done a bit earlier. Brutal yes, but no more so than Charlemagne or Gregory or Louis. He and his followers were quite successful and the accomplishments of the Abassid and Umayyad empires were impressive. Art, science, and medicine flourished more than anywhere else in the world at the time. Subjects of Muslim rule were usually treated better than many under Christian rule, ask the Jews. Fast forward through Suleiman and the Khanates that opened the Silk Road and you see a pretty decent culture. But somewhere along the way, and maybe it was not until the 20th century, something went wrong. Maybe it was abused child syndrome, after all man Islamic cultures suffered terribly under western colonial rule. But at some point all the highlights and accomplishments of a once great culture seemed to disappear, and as if a glacial monolith covered the fertile crescent and sands and mountains and jungles of the Islamic sphere of influence, the flame of civilization was extinguished only to be replaced by repression, puritanism, violence and despair. Are there individual Muslims who are decent wonderful people, yes of course. But does the overall culture betray yet its great foundation, yes again, and both must be acknowledged.
10
I'm reading this author's book right now. I also just now read the description of her on the SPLC's field guide. The write up is interesting. I will read both, and then make up my mind about how to think of her.
8
"the S.P.L.C. is an organization that has lost its way, smearing people who are fighting for liberty"
Or maybe those who use violence to fight for political goals in America are the ones who lost their way, no matter their cause.
Or maybe those who use violence to fight for political goals in America are the ones who lost their way, no matter their cause.
15
What? Who are you referring to?
5
It is here that I suggest to all those ready to write off the SPLC because of Ms. Ali's opinion, to actually take the time and do some research on the organization instead of just taking one person's word for it.
With a president who openly harbors white nationalists by equating them with those who protest against them, now is not the time to undermine ANY work being done to discourage racial and religious bigotry in this country.
Get informed. Then decide for yourself.
With a president who openly harbors white nationalists by equating them with those who protest against them, now is not the time to undermine ANY work being done to discourage racial and religious bigotry in this country.
Get informed. Then decide for yourself.
27
While I am and will continue to be a supporter of the SPLC, I most heartily agree with Ayaan Hirsi Ali. The most powerful way for Islam to rid itself of the terrorist cancer is for reformation to take hold from within. To that end, why would the SPLC condemn and attempt to silence these voices within the Islamic community, namely Ms. Ali and Maajid Nawaz? These are people of good will who are speaking out against honor killings, female genital mutilation, and extremism and for human rights within the Islamic community. They of course have a unique perspective having come from those very communities, with especially Mr. Nawaz having been an extremist himself. They are invaluable voices who should be heeded and honored, not condemned and silenced. The SPLC's actions against them, as a Western organization, are arrogant and misguided at the very least. It would be tragic for the West, led by the actions of the SPLC, to miss this opportunity to listen to and learn.
36
Neo-Nazis, white supremacists, members of the KKK, etc., should be free to think their thoughts, and express them verbally but civilly, with no one preventing them from doing so. The same goes for the fascist "antifa" squads. So long as neither side initiates physical force against the other, law and order is the order of the day.
But the Charlottesville "antifa" squads came to their illegal gathering armed with baseball bats - acting as they did according to their fascist roots and agenda. If Ayaan Hirsi Ali had done her due diligence, she would have spoken out against all the perpetrators of physical violence, which is precisely what POTUS did.
Fascism is a collectivist ideology, and belongs side by side with socialism, National Socialism, and Communism; in other words, it's a Leftist/Progressive approach to life. "antifa" is a lie - their members are intent upon destroying freedom of speech, which is why the SPLC and the ACLU chose to defend who they did.
If your goal is to prevent anyone from thinking or expressing "bad ideas" remember that the Nazis, the Saudis, the Iranians, and the Communists - not to mention the Christians and the Muslims - have that agenda as well.
But the Charlottesville "antifa" squads came to their illegal gathering armed with baseball bats - acting as they did according to their fascist roots and agenda. If Ayaan Hirsi Ali had done her due diligence, she would have spoken out against all the perpetrators of physical violence, which is precisely what POTUS did.
Fascism is a collectivist ideology, and belongs side by side with socialism, National Socialism, and Communism; in other words, it's a Leftist/Progressive approach to life. "antifa" is a lie - their members are intent upon destroying freedom of speech, which is why the SPLC and the ACLU chose to defend who they did.
If your goal is to prevent anyone from thinking or expressing "bad ideas" remember that the Nazis, the Saudis, the Iranians, and the Communists - not to mention the Christians and the Muslims - have that agenda as well.
8
You are so misinformed that it would be impossible to refute all of your incorrect statements. Suffice it to say that your statements about socialism and communism, especially equating them with fascism are wrong. You either have never studied anything about them, or were incapable of understanding what you heard or read. Please do not make blanket statements without any facts to back them up. Societies with socialist elements are the most Progressive and have the best standard of living in the world. They are and historically have been anti-fascist. Get it right before you post.
2
First of all, to those people bringing up nice, tolerant, secular Muslims: Ayaan isn't talking about them, nor are the majority of people mentioning issues with Islam. Two, Islam is a set of ideas, not a people. Please read that last sentence again. Does Islam reliably generate unpleasant ideas and actions against women, gays, and apostates? Are there Muslim countries where these things are illegal? Are there conservative Muslims in Europe and the US who agree with said intolerant ideas? Yes, of course there are. Asked and answered in every poll ever done on the subject. Let's tell the truth and be honest about it. This should be a no-brainer for the tolerance-first (if you agree with therm) left. It's hard to mix a culture of pluralism and secularism with a set of ideas that is neither. Anyone remember the Imam in Florida who said it was every Muslims duty to kill gay people? I do. That was in Florida. Are most Muslims in the U.S. regular people and good Americans? Absolutely. And (repeat after me) *we're not talking about them*. But anyone claiming that Islam (in some version) does not reliably generate hateful, intolerant people is deluded. Next you'll tell us the sun is actually a purple rabbit. We can read. We see the news every day. And it doesn't matter if other religions or ideas do the same. Bad ideas are bad.
If we strip away all the political obfuscation and signalling, all we're really talking about is telling the truth vs not telling the truth. Be honest.
If we strip away all the political obfuscation and signalling, all we're really talking about is telling the truth vs not telling the truth. Be honest.
53
Clearly people are simpleminded. It should be easy to call out both neo-Nazis and Islamic fundamentalists. Just recently it was reported that the Iman in Spain who was involved in the recent car ramming 'flew under the radar' by pretending to be moderate. Extremists on both sides play off each other. SPLC is missing the boat on this one, I won't donate a thing to them.
29
I am no expert on the SPLC, but they seem to be in the forefront of fighting hatred and bigotry in its many forms. No organization is perfect, and I would surely like to hear their side of this story. I hope Ms. Ali and Mr. Nawab help all of us understand that no matter what your religion or beliefs, tolerance and love come first.
5
As this is under the opinion page, i have to ask is there a NYT news story for background? Maybe a news story with a reporter questioning the SPLC and also the background of the writer would help sort this out. All it appears to be is someone with an unverified background making a highly charged claim. It may be true, it may be justified, but i couldn't tell you.
10
I, too, am atheist.
As such, there is not one religion, out of the thousands there are, that I support.
I believe in no transcendencies, no metaphysics, no doctrine or dogma.
Nor do I believe in any tax-exemption for any religion, member of staff, or corporate business.
Yes, I believe that the Institution of Religion is the one common factor in betraying progress.
Yes, I believe that Religion hides behind secular words like "tradition" and "heritage".
Yes, I believe that its Core Value is "Hierarchical law" as opposed to the concept of "Equal law" which is the foundation of Constitutionality.
And, somewhere in all of that is why Ayaan Hirsi Ali is tagged by the Southern Poverty Law Center as an "extremist". Lost in her statement that she is an "atheist", is her specific, unrelenting attacks on one religion: Islam.
If there is clarification that is needed, it is there, and it will have to be said over and over.
And, perhaps, the SPLC needs to clarify their own distinction within the arena of "atheist" versus "religion". Do they regularly give more standing to "religion"? Is there a problem with "atheism"?
I'm more than just simply curious about this matter as I have been a member of the SPLC for almost 20 years and have never questioned the correctness of my membership.
Hopefully, the SPLC will be accorded its own opportunity to reply here.
As such, there is not one religion, out of the thousands there are, that I support.
I believe in no transcendencies, no metaphysics, no doctrine or dogma.
Nor do I believe in any tax-exemption for any religion, member of staff, or corporate business.
Yes, I believe that the Institution of Religion is the one common factor in betraying progress.
Yes, I believe that Religion hides behind secular words like "tradition" and "heritage".
Yes, I believe that its Core Value is "Hierarchical law" as opposed to the concept of "Equal law" which is the foundation of Constitutionality.
And, somewhere in all of that is why Ayaan Hirsi Ali is tagged by the Southern Poverty Law Center as an "extremist". Lost in her statement that she is an "atheist", is her specific, unrelenting attacks on one religion: Islam.
If there is clarification that is needed, it is there, and it will have to be said over and over.
And, perhaps, the SPLC needs to clarify their own distinction within the arena of "atheist" versus "religion". Do they regularly give more standing to "religion"? Is there a problem with "atheism"?
I'm more than just simply curious about this matter as I have been a member of the SPLC for almost 20 years and have never questioned the correctness of my membership.
Hopefully, the SPLC will be accorded its own opportunity to reply here.
4
I FIND IT Surpassingly odd that the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) has been hijacked by Islamist extremists. While it is the case that the number of African Americans who identify themselves as Muslims, such a status does not necessarily imply that the followers of islam in the SPLC have become radicalized Islamists who favor the return of the Caliphate worldwide. Until I read the article by Hirsi Ayaan Ali, a fierce advocate for freedom and equality, i was unaware of the bias that the SPLC had adopted. It's high time for the donors to be contacted and informed of the dangerous Islamist bias of the SPLC. No reason to encourage donations to an organization that is opposed to most of the freedoms that define the US.
18
Why is the SPCA killing kittens and puppies?
Why are American universities graduating illiterates?
Why is our military poisoning the air in foreign countries?
Why does religion promote bigotry and persecution?
Why are physicians over-prescribing opioids?
Why is the SPLC targeting liberals?
Beware of questions that contain hidden claims to truth that have not been earned through argument and evidence. Whether the presupposed claims are good, bad, or indifferent as claims that deserve response, beware.
Why are American universities graduating illiterates?
Why is our military poisoning the air in foreign countries?
Why does religion promote bigotry and persecution?
Why are physicians over-prescribing opioids?
Why is the SPLC targeting liberals?
Beware of questions that contain hidden claims to truth that have not been earned through argument and evidence. Whether the presupposed claims are good, bad, or indifferent as claims that deserve response, beware.
14
The arrogance that is on display in these comments is staggering. This is a woman of color who struggled her whole life against oppression by patriarchal Islamism. She has put her life on the line to speak out against extremism. Her friend has been killed by these thugs. Yet the SPLC and liberals on this page have the gall to discredit her and call her an extremist! Because she contradicts the politically correct ideological position you learned from the safety of your American university? Her positions come from real experience. The utter lack of humility! Is it a wonder she turns to conservative institutions to have a chance to express herself? This is the problem with leftist ideology and authoritarian control of speech-you talk when you should listen.
57
I am surprised to read of Ayaan Hirsi Ali's prominence. I'm surprised the NYT published this, not so much because of the view but because it is so poorly written. She presents no facts to make her argument. She spews personal resentment toward the SPLC and toward Islam without constructing a fact based argument, or one even with specific examples, with which a reader can evaluate her claim that SPLC has unjustly targeted anyone. Why not say what she said that SPLC objects to and let the reader judge? She reminds me of Trump compaining about the media without actually contructing a case for his view.
Ms. Ali does come off as anti-Islamic. The fact that some Islamic people do bad things doesn't add to the argument about whether the SPLC was justified in adding people to its list of anti-Muslum extreamists.
The SPLC has done amazing work that few had the courage to take on, and they did it successfully. There isn't anything in this article that illustrates otherwise. The author comes off as fanatical, anti-Islamic, and prejudicial agains all Mulsums because of her traumic childhood. That's not right.
I hope folks read this and see why the work of the SPLC is important.
Ms. Ali does come off as anti-Islamic. The fact that some Islamic people do bad things doesn't add to the argument about whether the SPLC was justified in adding people to its list of anti-Muslum extreamists.
The SPLC has done amazing work that few had the courage to take on, and they did it successfully. There isn't anything in this article that illustrates otherwise. The author comes off as fanatical, anti-Islamic, and prejudicial agains all Mulsums because of her traumic childhood. That's not right.
I hope folks read this and see why the work of the SPLC is important.
14
Short op-ed essays cannot be in depth analyses. It is very well written and examples were provided. Your own personal bias is blinding.
19
I don't know if everything the author says about Islam is correct or fair, but I *do* have a problem with the mostly white men who run the SPLC telling a woman who grew up in a Muslim community that she doesn't have a right to talk about how Islam affects women. Her views may not be shared by all Muslim women, but allow everyone who has personal experience to participate in the debate.
38
What an odd op ed. The title asserts that SPLC is "targeting liberals". Yet nowhere in the op ed does Ali provide the name(s) of any liberals thus targeted, much less any evidence thereof. Her main complaint seems to be that SPLC listed her as an anti-Muslim extremist, which has no relevance to the title of the op-ed. It is clear from Ali's association with the Hoover Institute, a well known conservative think tank, that she does not identify as a liberal.
10
I think the problem with Ms. Ali is that she lumps all followers of Islam with Islamic terrorists. I am a proud member of SPLC and think they do a great job which is critically important at this time in history. We don't need self appointed angry critics with simplistic solutions to tell us that radical islam is a danger to all who love liberty and abhor violence in the name of religion. Do not let her paint literally billions of people, who believe in Islam as a philosphy and a religion, with the same brush. It is also not right. Why the NY Times prints thiis kind of article is beyond me. Ms. Ali is fact out wrong about "liberals" not wanting to call out radical islam and their senseless violence but her thoughts are one sided and simplistic. Please don't let this misguided woman undermine the fine work this organization does to identify and call out those groups which are truly a danger to our democracy and to us all.
6
"I think the problem with Ms. Ali is that she lumps all followers of Islam with Islamic terrorists. "
No, she does not. You clearly don't know anything about her to make such an incorrect statement.
No, she does not. You clearly don't know anything about her to make such an incorrect statement.
4
Ms. Hirsi Ali--I agree with you thoroughly about Islam and admire your work fighting extremism.
But why are you at the right-wing Hoover Institute? This is confusing.
But why are you at the right-wing Hoover Institute? This is confusing.
5
If all your family rejected you, would you feel that you should remain solitary as a result, or would you seek out friends to establish a new family?
6
You should do a search of her name. She is a Right Wing rabble rouser female Trump.
2
24/7 armed security for yourself and your family does not come cheap.
Conservative think tanks pay better than their liberal counterparts.
She may have no choice.
Conservative think tanks pay better than their liberal counterparts.
She may have no choice.
SPLC was founded in 1971 specifically to protect the civil rights gains made in the 1950s/60s from groups such as the KKK. That is their thing. More broadly, it appears SPLC targets hate groups in the U.S. - ISIS and Al Qaeda don't have much of a foothold here, no well-defined groups other than Nation of Islam (which makes the SPLC cut to include), a lot more rightwing terrorist incidences foiled and more activity, plus law enforcement considered right-wing extremists a greater danger, a report that the GOP squashed.
There is a concrete reason why public figures are careful about saying negative things about Islam: when white supremes make news, other whites don't fear a reprisal because it doesn't happen; when muslim supremes make news, all muslims DO fear a reprisal because it DOES happen.
And the author's 'rating' by SPLC: it is not that she speaks out against muslim extremism but HOW she does it - we will undoubtedly experience more muslim extremism in this country (ditto for rightwing), but sharia law will NOT manifest itself in this country any more than fundamentalist Jewish or Christian law where it departs from municipal, state, federal law, or the constitution, will not be imposed on those who don't want it. Red herring.
And the articles cited: The Nation's mocks SPLC for the money being taken in given the dearth of hate - even though written in 2009, there has been no dearth of hate groups since 11/2008, grown since.
There is a concrete reason why public figures are careful about saying negative things about Islam: when white supremes make news, other whites don't fear a reprisal because it doesn't happen; when muslim supremes make news, all muslims DO fear a reprisal because it DOES happen.
And the author's 'rating' by SPLC: it is not that she speaks out against muslim extremism but HOW she does it - we will undoubtedly experience more muslim extremism in this country (ditto for rightwing), but sharia law will NOT manifest itself in this country any more than fundamentalist Jewish or Christian law where it departs from municipal, state, federal law, or the constitution, will not be imposed on those who don't want it. Red herring.
And the articles cited: The Nation's mocks SPLC for the money being taken in given the dearth of hate - even though written in 2009, there has been no dearth of hate groups since 11/2008, grown since.
4
I am definitely a critic of Islam in its various forms, having worked and lived in the Gulf Middle East for a total of 19 years. I believe that religion is an evil force in this world. Forget the tiny minority of terrorists. Muslim women are expected to stay home and be baby machines.
15
Ayaan Hirsi Ali writes brilliantly and convincingly here. She understands the importance of being objective and consistent in analysis and reasoning and rightfully rues the misguided Western liberals and progressives(and I am a progressive and liberal person) who tend to view Islamic extremists almost as sacred cows. To do so is actually to take a conservative, fascist position that is anything but liberal and harmful to human rights.
14
Ms. Ali is a right wing celebrity living on a fellowship from the ultra-conservative Hoover Institute, yet she attempts to group herself among "liberals". She's not even attacking Islamic extremists here, merely people who urge tolerance toward Muslims — and she's certainly not going to criticize her GOP paymasters for tolerating and/or encouraging the extremists in their ranks.
10
Are you actually trying to dismiss this article by saying the black woman who wrote it is only trying to serve her "masters"? Do you even hear yourself?
3
A basic ad hominem. Nothing you have said negates her criticisms of the bad ideas within Islam.
2
I certainly can understand Ayaan Hirsi Ali's perspective. If faced with a similar situation, I could envision my own Opinion here. That noted, I have been fortunate to work with leadership and staff at SPLC and have raised funds for them. I can attest to their credibility and focus. They are unique in their role, as they work to better conditions for and ensure the rights of children, the poor, immigrants, individuals in the LBGT community and toward criminal justice reform. Their primary focus on most of these programs is the deep South, but as noted here, they do more. Are they perfect? No. Just as are none of us. Regarding the Hate Map - they are diligent in their research and deliberation before any group is classified as a hate group or form of threat. Their work in support of this is also much broader. I would encourage anyone to further research the organization, their intentions, processes and execution before so readily dismissing them after reading one Opinion.
4
SPLC is very consistent in condemning extremism. It is Ali's lack of consistency in criticizing the extremist elements of Islam in favor of blaming the whole religion that makes her stances difficult to support.
11
You read an entirely different article. Written by an entirely different person.
4
Define 'the whole religion'. If you mean 'all 1.6 billion' Muslims, then provide a source for this claim.
If you mean the actual Qur'an and hadiths, so what? The Qur'an and hadiths DO deserve criticism.
If you mean the actual Qur'an and hadiths, so what? The Qur'an and hadiths DO deserve criticism.
2
It's hard to be everything to everybody, I'm afraid, but especially to delicate flowers.
4
There is a distinction between criticizing extreme religious sects that do not adhere to tenets that respect human dignity and painting a fifth of all people on earth as evil. There are widely different interpretations of Islam, just as there are widely different interpretations of Christianity. Quakers are very different from Westboro Baptists and denouncing all Christians because of military funeral protests would be unfair. Ms. Ali does not take enough care in her denouncements of Islam and the SPLC called her out for it. Vilifying large swaths of the world is usually quite problematic.
5
"..and painting a fifth of all people on earth as evil."
Citation needed for Ms. Ali 'painting a fifth of all people on Earth as evil', otherwise that is slander.
I suspect you don't know that much about her work.
Citation needed for Ms. Ali 'painting a fifth of all people on Earth as evil', otherwise that is slander.
I suspect you don't know that much about her work.
1
I have no problem with the Southern Poverty Law Center listing liberals as extremists. Anyone who advocates for a cause, no matter how pure, that includes the complete destruction of their enemies should make their list. In that regard, Ms. Ali is in the right place.
2
I think Hirsi goes beyond opposition to extremism and targets Islam in general, being a non-believer. Not sure if this qualifies her as an extremist, but she is not accepting of sincere beliefs at any level, so far as I have read her materials.
2
I hadn't heard of Maajid Nawaz before reading this article - but I've read Ms. Hirsi Ali's book and an earlier article. Also saw the Theo van Gogh video and read "Murder in Amsterdam." Two very different profiles!
Based on his Wiki profile, it sounds like Maajid Nawaz is doing some good work. Resigned from Hizb ut-Tahrir 10 years ago; opposes FGM; encouraged others to exit hate groups. The SPLC could consider removing him from their list.
"Infidel" is an interesting book; however, her articles have made claims without supporting them. She suffered from abuses in Islamic Somalia, so it is understandable if she came to reject Islam. It is unclear whether her attitude is tolerant towards moderate Islam. I met a journalist from Oman who pointed out that FGM originated in Africa, and has no basis in Islam.
Muslims who choose to live peacefully are no threat to a predominantly christian society such as the US. Showing some tolerance for blasphemy by non-believers would be consistent with American values. Violent reactions to cartoons - such as the Jesus and Mo cartoon that Nawaz re-tweeted, isn't tolerant enough. Violent reactions to Ms. Hirsi Ali's views and Theo van Gogh's video are criminal.
Nevertheless, it is important to assure peaceful Muslims that we don't regard them as enemies - no matter what we think of Islam or other religions.
Based on his Wiki profile, it sounds like Maajid Nawaz is doing some good work. Resigned from Hizb ut-Tahrir 10 years ago; opposes FGM; encouraged others to exit hate groups. The SPLC could consider removing him from their list.
"Infidel" is an interesting book; however, her articles have made claims without supporting them. She suffered from abuses in Islamic Somalia, so it is understandable if she came to reject Islam. It is unclear whether her attitude is tolerant towards moderate Islam. I met a journalist from Oman who pointed out that FGM originated in Africa, and has no basis in Islam.
Muslims who choose to live peacefully are no threat to a predominantly christian society such as the US. Showing some tolerance for blasphemy by non-believers would be consistent with American values. Violent reactions to cartoons - such as the Jesus and Mo cartoon that Nawaz re-tweeted, isn't tolerant enough. Violent reactions to Ms. Hirsi Ali's views and Theo van Gogh's video are criminal.
Nevertheless, it is important to assure peaceful Muslims that we don't regard them as enemies - no matter what we think of Islam or other religions.
2
The journalist from Oman is wrong, FGM does have a basis in Islam.
'So is there any credence to the claim that Islam supports FGM? In fact, there is. To name two, the major collections of the Hadith Sahih Muslim 3:684 and Abu Dawud 41:5251 support the practice.
<<>>
Unsurprisingly, in the Muslim-majority countries dominated by the schools which mandate the practice, there is evidence of widespread female circumcision. Of particular note: None of the major schools condemn the practice.'
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/10/05/reza-aslan-is-wr...
FGM existed before Islam and is not exclusive to it, but it absolutely does have a relation to the religion.
I would ask you to not just take one person's word for it.
'So is there any credence to the claim that Islam supports FGM? In fact, there is. To name two, the major collections of the Hadith Sahih Muslim 3:684 and Abu Dawud 41:5251 support the practice.
<<>>
Unsurprisingly, in the Muslim-majority countries dominated by the schools which mandate the practice, there is evidence of widespread female circumcision. Of particular note: None of the major schools condemn the practice.'
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/10/05/reza-aslan-is-wr...
FGM existed before Islam and is not exclusive to it, but it absolutely does have a relation to the religion.
I would ask you to not just take one person's word for it.
2
Your words: "Violence is inherent in Islam." Ms. Ali, this is an extremist view.
2
'Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.'
https://quran.com/4/34
'These are two adversaries who have disputed over their Lord. But those who disbelieved will have cut out for them garments of fire. Poured upon their heads will be scalding water
By which is melted that within their bellies and [their] skins.
And for [striking] them are maces of iron.
Every time they want to get out of Hellfire from anguish, they will be returned to it, and [it will be said], "Taste the punishment of the Burning Fire!"'
https://quran.com/22/19-29?translations=20
Do you think wife-beating is violent? How about eternal torture?
https://quran.com/4/34
'These are two adversaries who have disputed over their Lord. But those who disbelieved will have cut out for them garments of fire. Poured upon their heads will be scalding water
By which is melted that within their bellies and [their] skins.
And for [striking] them are maces of iron.
Every time they want to get out of Hellfire from anguish, they will be returned to it, and [it will be said], "Taste the punishment of the Burning Fire!"'
https://quran.com/22/19-29?translations=20
Do you think wife-beating is violent? How about eternal torture?
2
This is the second op-ed Ali has had in several months in the Times flogging indignations about how she personally has been treated by liberals. Last time, it was about a congressional hearing on human rights, and she was criticizing female Democratic senators, including Kamala Harris. Why is the Times lending her such a broad mouthpiece to take on personal grudges?
Look, Ali has made some pretty virulent anti-Islamic comments in the past. Whether or not she should be censured by tolerant opinion is, I suppose, a matter for debate, but she's also free to make more clear her past comments if she thinks they've been taken out of context. It seems to me like the system is working like it's supposed to, warning readers of commentators who have an agenda and who bait religious tension. Note that this is fully compatible with being concerned about human rights in Muslim-majority countries.
Look, Ali has made some pretty virulent anti-Islamic comments in the past. Whether or not she should be censured by tolerant opinion is, I suppose, a matter for debate, but she's also free to make more clear her past comments if she thinks they've been taken out of context. It seems to me like the system is working like it's supposed to, warning readers of commentators who have an agenda and who bait religious tension. Note that this is fully compatible with being concerned about human rights in Muslim-majority countries.
5
Without wishing to comment on the S.P.L.C. or their donors, I agree with Ayaan Hirsi Ali that too many of us liberals lack the nuance that would enable them to criticize the conduct or ideology of some Muslims, without intending anything like a condemnation of all Muslims or of Islam itself.
With religious traditions, interpretation is everything. Just because we may know a person identifies him/herself as a Jew or Christian or Muslim, that does not tell us much about the person's system of belief and practice. There are illiberal interpretations of those three religions, harsh, intolerant, sometimes condoning or enjoining deadly violence; and those interpretations are valid ones. But those are never the only valid interpretations (so on this I disagree with AHA, who thinks Islam cannot be salvaged at all). And the task of those of us observers who try to be fair and enlightened is always to encourage the interpretations tending towards justice, tolerance, open-mindedness, peace, and love.
With religious traditions, interpretation is everything. Just because we may know a person identifies him/herself as a Jew or Christian or Muslim, that does not tell us much about the person's system of belief and practice. There are illiberal interpretations of those three religions, harsh, intolerant, sometimes condoning or enjoining deadly violence; and those interpretations are valid ones. But those are never the only valid interpretations (so on this I disagree with AHA, who thinks Islam cannot be salvaged at all). And the task of those of us observers who try to be fair and enlightened is always to encourage the interpretations tending towards justice, tolerance, open-mindedness, peace, and love.
13
Mark--I'm with you. I cannot judge either Ms. Hirsi Ali, nor can I judge the SPLC at this point. But I did read the entire "Field Guide to Anti-Muslim Extremists" and I don't believe she makes her case. She is not as rabid as the other fourteen people profiled, but she has said some things that are concerning, specifically that there is no "moderate Islam." Yet, I know we have many Muslims in this country who are peaceful people practicing Islam. She focuses this editorial on Islamic extremism as if all Muslims are extremists by definition. In this country we have right wingers, then we have extreme right ring Nazis. We Americans understand the difference. But we're confused about Islam, we don't understand the nuances, and her rhetoric is confusing because if we take her at face value we must then believe that all Muslims are extremists. I'm as uncomfortable with doing that as I am with calling all right wingers Nazis.
1
Ali's selective editing of her virulently anti-Muslim statements, wherein she argues that ALL Muslims are the enemy and must be "crushed" through violent military means (see 2007 Reason interview), reminds me of Trump's selective editing of his Charlottesville statements during his Arizona rally. Ali is a classic example of a "native informer" that serves to confirm the bigotry and justify the violence of neocolonialism. The vast majority of Muslims decry the nihilistic extremism of ISIS and the repulsive Wahhabi ideology that the Saudis have exported to poorer countries using their oil wealth (e.g., Pakistan, Afghanistan). However, Ali and her supporters defame these people with false charges because they correctly challenge the disastrous wars and carnage inflicted upon Muslim countries by the US and its allies. Let's not be naive, Ali's dehumanization of all Muslims (they must be "crushed" violently) is no different than the hateful propaganda of Radio Hutu ("crush" the Tutsi "cockroaches"). Ali worked hand in hand with Cheney/Rumsfeld to put a "liberal" patina on their murderous wars and torture memos, which most Americans now recognize as a moral stain and strategic folly. Thanks Ali, for reminding me to give SPLC more money. And also more money to civil rights groups like Muslim Advocates and CAIR, that are promoting Constitutional liberties and tolerance, in stark contrast to your advocacy for bigotry and violence against an entire religious community.
37
Very well put. It seems that Ali has allowed herself to be used as a darling of the right for their own purposes (and hers). To condemn an entire religion and all those who practice it because some commit terrible acts is throwing out the baby with the bathwater and just not constructive. Calls for more violence only fan the flames and make things worse.
2
"Ali's selective editing of her virulently anti-Muslim statements, wherein she argues that ALL Muslims are the enemy and must be "crushed" through violent military means (see 2007 Reason interview)"
She didn't say anything like 'all Muslims are the enemy and must be crushed through violent military means'.
http://reason.com/archives/2007/10/10/the-trouble-is-the-west/1
Here's what she actually thinks:
'She divides followers of the faith into three distinct groups: the Mecca Muslims, the large majority who represent the more tolerant side of the religion, as articulated during Muhammad’s early Mecca period; the Medina Muslims (or the jihadist wing) who are inspired by the harsher aspects of the Qur’an that Muhammad is thought to have expressed during his later consolidation in Medina; and the Modifying Muslims – those dissidents and reformists who actively challenge religious dogma.'
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/apr/27/heretic-islam-reformation-...
She didn't say anything like 'all Muslims are the enemy and must be crushed through violent military means'.
http://reason.com/archives/2007/10/10/the-trouble-is-the-west/1
Here's what she actually thinks:
'She divides followers of the faith into three distinct groups: the Mecca Muslims, the large majority who represent the more tolerant side of the religion, as articulated during Muhammad’s early Mecca period; the Medina Muslims (or the jihadist wing) who are inspired by the harsher aspects of the Qur’an that Muhammad is thought to have expressed during his later consolidation in Medina; and the Modifying Muslims – those dissidents and reformists who actively challenge religious dogma.'
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/apr/27/heretic-islam-reformation-...
2
Here we see polemic (driven largely by personal grievance) masquerading as far-minded scholarship. This piece besmirches the Hoover Institution by suggesting its scholars operate a propaganda machine.
12
Not mere personal grievance but hunger for fame and fortune courtesy of the Hoover Institution, one of Washington's most renowned propaganda machines.
2
Many people have felt that way about the Hoover Institution for many years, long before Ms. Ali began working for them.
2
@Neal: Ummm, the Hoover Institution is at Stanford University in Palo Alto, California, not Washington.
3
As an occasional donor to SPLC, I was taken aback by the title of this Op-Ed piece.
To gain a perspective, I looked at the "manual" linked to the column, read a story from the Atlantic about Mr. Nawaz and others on the list, and looked at the docket of recent cases the SPLC has initiated.
It seems to me that the list doesn't have the goal of shutting anyone up, but is intended to "warn" folks. Whether the listing is accurate is another matter. I tend not to take much stock in authoritative comments.
In regard to the comments that the SPLC is no longer focused on civil rights issues, the docket items I saw all involved civil rights issues.
The column doesn't make its case in that regard with me.
To gain a perspective, I looked at the "manual" linked to the column, read a story from the Atlantic about Mr. Nawaz and others on the list, and looked at the docket of recent cases the SPLC has initiated.
It seems to me that the list doesn't have the goal of shutting anyone up, but is intended to "warn" folks. Whether the listing is accurate is another matter. I tend not to take much stock in authoritative comments.
In regard to the comments that the SPLC is no longer focused on civil rights issues, the docket items I saw all involved civil rights issues.
The column doesn't make its case in that regard with me.
32
Ms. Ali has suffered from the toxic effects of Islamic extremism, but she solutions are as toxic as the problems itself. She wants a war between the West and ALL of Islam -- not just radical Islam. That will kill millions. That is why the Southern Poverty Law Center criticizes her.
Crushing them -- her words -- is not the answer. Here is a portion of an interview she gave Reason magazine ten years ago:
Reason: Don’t you mean defeating radical Islam?
Hirsi Ali: No. Islam, period. Once it’s defeated, it can mutate into something peaceful. It’s very difficult to even talk about peace now. They’re not interested in peace.
Reason: We have to crush the world’s 1.5 billion Muslims under our boot? In concrete terms, what does that mean, “defeat Islam”?
Hirsi Ali: I think that we are at war with Islam. And there’s no middle ground in wars. Islam can be defeated in many ways. For starters, you stop the spread of the ideology itself; at present, there are native Westerners converting to Islam, and they’re the most fanatical sometimes. There is infiltration of Islam in the schools and universities of the West. You stop that. You stop the symbol burning and the effigy burning, and you look them in the eye and flex your muscles and you say, “This is a warning. We won’t accept this anymore.” There comes a moment when you crush your enemy.
Reason: Militarily?
Hirsi Ali: In all forms, and if you don’t do that, then you have to live with the consequence of being crushed.
Crushing them -- her words -- is not the answer. Here is a portion of an interview she gave Reason magazine ten years ago:
Reason: Don’t you mean defeating radical Islam?
Hirsi Ali: No. Islam, period. Once it’s defeated, it can mutate into something peaceful. It’s very difficult to even talk about peace now. They’re not interested in peace.
Reason: We have to crush the world’s 1.5 billion Muslims under our boot? In concrete terms, what does that mean, “defeat Islam”?
Hirsi Ali: I think that we are at war with Islam. And there’s no middle ground in wars. Islam can be defeated in many ways. For starters, you stop the spread of the ideology itself; at present, there are native Westerners converting to Islam, and they’re the most fanatical sometimes. There is infiltration of Islam in the schools and universities of the West. You stop that. You stop the symbol burning and the effigy burning, and you look them in the eye and flex your muscles and you say, “This is a warning. We won’t accept this anymore.” There comes a moment when you crush your enemy.
Reason: Militarily?
Hirsi Ali: In all forms, and if you don’t do that, then you have to live with the consequence of being crushed.
10
I have read this through twice, very carefully, trying to justify or even to understand it. I still come up with the same opinion. This really is an appalling piece. It is full of prejudice, full of anti-Muslim propaganda (of the kind of venom that is peculiar to "former" members of any group--but especially religions), full of vague references that are intended to provoke rather than inform. It is short on facts and much too long of self-congratulation and self-pity. It makes me want to say, along with my two-year-old grandson, "I don't yike it." I am old enough to remember when the Southern Poverty Law Center started, in my hometown of Montgomery, Alabama, and it was an act of unbelievable courage in those days. Yes, they have lost their way on many occasions, but have stayed the course of the right path on many more. They are now facing the old dilemma, made more acute by the times, between the first amendment right to free speech and the sort of thing that happened in Charlottesville. At what point does your right to express your opinion slam up against my rights? It's a tough, probably except on a case by case basis, an unanswerable question. But the tone and the single vision of this piece cannot do anything but harm. There is nothing here, either in what she has written or in her affiliation with the Hoover Institution, that qualifies her to call herself a liberal.
37
Remember that Ms. Ali was tortured by Islam (I regard female castration (circumcision) as torture) and that institutional Islam can be as violent as she claims.
Remember the fatwa on Salman Rushdie, and the wars between Sunny and Shiite. All of that is real.
I have addressed my agreement with much of what you say in other comments, but I think it only fair to mention she has reason for her virulent stand.
Remember the fatwa on Salman Rushdie, and the wars between Sunny and Shiite. All of that is real.
I have addressed my agreement with much of what you say in other comments, but I think it only fair to mention she has reason for her virulent stand.
21
John McCain was imprisoned and tortured for years; I haven't seen him stomping around for the last four decades declaring that the North Vietnamese as a people aren't fit to live.
Ms. Ali is an anti-Muslim extremist.
Ms. Ali is an anti-Muslim extremist.
3
Ms. Ali has a long history of lies and misrepresentations of her own history, including lying to get asylum in the Netherlands, for which she almost (and probably should have) lost her Dutch citizenship. This pattern of deception extends to her profitable opinions on Islam, which helped get her elected to political office in the Netherlands and have now gotten her a position at the Hoover Institution to continue spouting nonsense. Her extremist opinions are well documented in articles and interviews, and these extremist opinions are the basis for the SPLC labeling her as an anti-Muslim extremist, which she most certainly is.
26
The problem is that things that are not the same are constantly being conflated in this debate.
There are a lot of Muslims in America who have been targeted for discrimination and violence because they are Muslim, and the perpetrators of these hateful acts invariably justify themselves by conflating their victims with terrorists. People who are seeking to harm American Muslims invariably start their arguments by talking about terrorism. Conflating peaceful, normal Muslims with terrorists and extremists has become so common that it has led to a second conflation among those who are seeking to protect peaceful Muslims: conflating honest opponents of Islamic extremists, like the author of this piece, with bigots who are seeking to use the existence of Islamic extremism as an excuse to harm peaceful Muslims.
Both of these conflations are wrong. Everyone has a right to live in peace, free from discrimination and oppression. Hopefully those who wish to protect Muslims from Islamophobic violence and those who wish to protect everyone, Muslims very much included, from Islamist violence can learn to reject these conflations and discover their common ground.
There are a lot of Muslims in America who have been targeted for discrimination and violence because they are Muslim, and the perpetrators of these hateful acts invariably justify themselves by conflating their victims with terrorists. People who are seeking to harm American Muslims invariably start their arguments by talking about terrorism. Conflating peaceful, normal Muslims with terrorists and extremists has become so common that it has led to a second conflation among those who are seeking to protect peaceful Muslims: conflating honest opponents of Islamic extremists, like the author of this piece, with bigots who are seeking to use the existence of Islamic extremism as an excuse to harm peaceful Muslims.
Both of these conflations are wrong. Everyone has a right to live in peace, free from discrimination and oppression. Hopefully those who wish to protect Muslims from Islamophobic violence and those who wish to protect everyone, Muslims very much included, from Islamist violence can learn to reject these conflations and discover their common ground.
141
Your argument makes sense when talking about non-muslims criticizing the muslim community for terrorism and other things, that they are driven by bigotry. But why would a muslim (ex-muslim in the case of the author) be driven by bigotry towards his/her own religion? That is why what SPLC has done (naming Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Maajid Nawaz as extremists) is so galling, and frankly stupid.
9
Excellent argument; excellent clarity of thought. People need to realize that both rules and rights apply to everyone.
You do not know much about the mandates of Islamic ideology , do you?
1
I currently contribute to the S.P.L.C. and will continue to do so. To quote, "Mr. Nawaz has written extensively about his past as an Islamic extremist in England and Egypt, just as I’ve written about my time in the Muslim Brotherhood as a teenager." Why don't you be more specific and give details as what exactly you and his role in these "organizations" were.
4
Reading the comments here, SPLC isn't ideologically pure enough for them and never will be. Have read the same about the ACLU. Is there any group that is? At all? Anywhere? If so, pls share.
5
The SPLC listing both Ayaan and Maajid as anti-muslim extremists, truly crystalizes the moral confusion coming from the left on this issue. The reflexive reaction from self-described progressives to side with religious bullies of the Islamic flavor, is nauseating. If you are even remotely concerned with: women's rights, the rights of homosexuals, free speech, the pursuit of science and education, etc, you should be deeply concerned with the percentage of muslims who have retrograde ideas about said topics. Islam is not a race, it's a religion and a world view. We have no problem dismissing white supremacists for what they are: dangerous idiotic thugs. When this dangerous idiocy comes in the Islamic form, call that out as well.
39
Bravo
4
While I have not always seen eye to eye with Ms. Hirsi Ali, I do wholeheartedly agree with her assertion that "...liberals are deeply and increasingly uncomfortable with calling out Islamic extremism for fear of being smeared as “Islamophobic,” or worse." Also, that Islamic extremism is real and needs to be called out as such.
As a woman of Pakistani origin, I would feel as vulnerable and under attack in a Charlottesville neo-Nazi demonstration as I would at a Wahabi gathering in my country of birth where word might have gotten out that I am an "Americanized" doubting agnostic, Muslim in name only.
As a woman of Pakistani origin, I would feel as vulnerable and under attack in a Charlottesville neo-Nazi demonstration as I would at a Wahabi gathering in my country of birth where word might have gotten out that I am an "Americanized" doubting agnostic, Muslim in name only.
280
Please provide an example of this "deeply and increasingly" discomfort. No one of any stripe has a problem pointing to extremism.
1
Before dropping your support please do some research on the writer. She works at the Hoover Institute a conservative think tank - as Steve and Catherine point out. Also, check out more of her history and try to learn why she was named by SPLC to begin with.
I don't completely agree with the organizations I support - such as the ACLU - I support them because they are are the ones working on issues I DO care about. Such as fighting against Trump on immigration, etc. I support the SPLC as a memorial for a close friend of mine who took his own life and all the work they have done fighting racism and hate for almost 50 years. The ACLU has been around almost 100.
I don't completely agree with the organizations I support - such as the ACLU - I support them because they are are the ones working on issues I DO care about. Such as fighting against Trump on immigration, etc. I support the SPLC as a memorial for a close friend of mine who took his own life and all the work they have done fighting racism and hate for almost 50 years. The ACLU has been around almost 100.
12
It sounds like you think that working at a conservative think tank is the same as belonging to a "hate" organization.
I've read up on Ms. Ali -- Wikipedia is actually very thorough and there are other links. It seems she is involved in a blanket denunciation of Islam as a religion. That isn't a position I would back, and it does seem "extreme". But it is not inciting imminent violent and I think even the SPLC would be hard put to prove that this is really the "extreme hate" that they imply, without declaring many individuals and groups as "hate groups" and loosing all credibility. Ms. Ali came to this position because she concluded Islam was unable to reform. Given that there are different styles of Islam in different countries from Saudi Arabia to Morocco to Kyrgyzstan, it doesn't seem fair. Yet ongoing terrorism with massive numbers of victims in Islam's name, with the tacit support or fear of denouncing prevalent in many communities, make her position understandable if not advisable. SPLC should save "hate group" as a title for those that actually incite violence or actively discriminate against any group.
I've read up on Ms. Ali -- Wikipedia is actually very thorough and there are other links. It seems she is involved in a blanket denunciation of Islam as a religion. That isn't a position I would back, and it does seem "extreme". But it is not inciting imminent violent and I think even the SPLC would be hard put to prove that this is really the "extreme hate" that they imply, without declaring many individuals and groups as "hate groups" and loosing all credibility. Ms. Ali came to this position because she concluded Islam was unable to reform. Given that there are different styles of Islam in different countries from Saudi Arabia to Morocco to Kyrgyzstan, it doesn't seem fair. Yet ongoing terrorism with massive numbers of victims in Islam's name, with the tacit support or fear of denouncing prevalent in many communities, make her position understandable if not advisable. SPLC should save "hate group" as a title for those that actually incite violence or actively discriminate against any group.
6
I don't know much about the Hoover Institute or about Ms. Ali. But i am well acquainted with the Southern Poverty Law Center, whose work i have financially supported for probably blose to 40 years. SPLC is a fine organization, exposing hate and discrimination and fighting for justice.
I trust SPLC and am suspect of Ms. Ali. Her Op-Ed writing has the tone of a personal vendetta.
I trust SPLC and am suspect of Ms. Ali. Her Op-Ed writing has the tone of a personal vendetta.
30
I am astonished at the number of people saying they are going to withdraw their support from the SPLC after reading one woman's opinion. I have always thought of readers of the NYT as critical thinkers with a healthy amount of skepticism, not naive followers of any individual's uncorroborated opinion.
39
...or maybe the folks "withdrawing their support" are actually right wing trolls trying to sow dissent on the left. It's a popular, venerable and dismayingly successful strategy.
6
As a deeply liberal Muslim, I have to call Hirsi Ali out on her true end game - which is certainly not protecting civil liberties or a free society. She is not a liberal by any means - she aligned herself with far right extremists like Geert Wilders when she was in the Netherlands. You don't get to align yourself with the far right, claim that "Islam" is a religion of violence and malign and undermine all Muslims, then claim to be a liberal. Nobody is interested in defending or justifying the views of extremists - it's all Muslims who are in her cross hairs, and the SPLC is seeking to protect from those like Ali.
34
Smearing the SPLC is upending my idea to erase the CSA relief on Stone Mountain Georgia in favor of the likeness of Morris Dees. I especially favor his likeness circa 1971 when he and his partner started SPLC. Matter-of-fact, all the CSA monuments in the South should be replace with statues of Mr. Dees. The spectacular history of the SPLC should be required reading in every high school and university in America.
10
For those who wish to judge others based on their beliefs, I suggest a visit to a local nursing home or hospital. You will find that many of the people who care for you are muslim. They are generous and thoughtful.
I'm not thrilled with the belief system, but there is much about Christianity I don't like either. But it is not my business to tell other people what they should do with their faith.
Ms. Ali suffered abuse from her community of so-called faith and has strong reason to refuse to accept abuse. Nobody should have to accept abuse.
Judge not, lest ye be judged.
I'm not thrilled with the belief system, but there is much about Christianity I don't like either. But it is not my business to tell other people what they should do with their faith.
Ms. Ali suffered abuse from her community of so-called faith and has strong reason to refuse to accept abuse. Nobody should have to accept abuse.
Judge not, lest ye be judged.
8
"Mr. Nawaz is a secular Muslim, whereas I am not a believer any longer." I thought she was Christian and recommended Muslims to convert. So, she is still a believer and should have made that clearer.
2
No she is an atheist.
1
She is an atheist
1
Her book Infidel makes her views on religion very clear. Ayaan Hirsi Ali is an Atheist. Check out the Wiki on her book (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=w... or the actual book on Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000NY12CI/).
1
While broadly agreeing that extremists labeling themselves Muslim are harmful (my Muslim acquaintances say they are not true practitioners of Islam), and that these white supremacists are like them (true Christians should disavow them; they are not followers of Jesus or true Christians), this is incorrect.
In fact, over history, Christians have killed as many as Muslims, perhaps more. Jews are also not innocent. It seems that this tripartite form of monotheism is all too tolerant of violence towards so-called unbelievers . Not only that, but just like historical Islam, Christianity is full of sects that have been at each other's throats, killing each other and starting wars.
Unfortunately, it is all too easy for people to claim that their god caused their inner hater/bigot. It's a good argument for atheism, but there are many nonviolent compassionate people of faith.
Sadly, Jeff Sessions and others like him are not open to true spiritual questioning. They seem rather to use their religion (as do many public "evangelists") to affirm their prejudices, their standing and even their wealth.
In fact, over history, Christians have killed as many as Muslims, perhaps more. Jews are also not innocent. It seems that this tripartite form of monotheism is all too tolerant of violence towards so-called unbelievers . Not only that, but just like historical Islam, Christianity is full of sects that have been at each other's throats, killing each other and starting wars.
Unfortunately, it is all too easy for people to claim that their god caused their inner hater/bigot. It's a good argument for atheism, but there are many nonviolent compassionate people of faith.
Sadly, Jeff Sessions and others like him are not open to true spiritual questioning. They seem rather to use their religion (as do many public "evangelists") to affirm their prejudices, their standing and even their wealth.
6
How did a discussion about the blind spot/fecklessness of an organization I previously cheered become a tired litany about the Trump administration? There is plenty of properly negative criticism of Drumpf for another comment stream.
Here we get a brave, black woman calling out the worst instincts of her former faith, and you find nothing better to say except "I'm a northern progressive and negativity about Islam is forbidden", or must be excused by false equivalence. If you can't do better than the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the Thirty Years War, then you have no argument about the present.
Here we get a brave, black woman calling out the worst instincts of her former faith, and you find nothing better to say except "I'm a northern progressive and negativity about Islam is forbidden", or must be excused by false equivalence. If you can't do better than the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the Thirty Years War, then you have no argument about the present.
1
No one doubts Christianity's bloody history, but they (for the most part) left that behind after the middle ages and began a process of Reformation. Muslim extremists continue to follow their prohphet's example to it's murderous end.
ISIS follows a completely plausible reading of the Koran, which is why it doesn't have trouble recruiting from all over the economic spectrum. Jihad, sex slaves, beheading, polygamy, murdering gays, murdering apostates and infidels - these are part and parcel of the faith.
Even when you look outside the jihadist Muslim population, you find significant support for non-liberal values. In the UK, 25% of Muslims had some sympathy for the motives of the Charlie Hebdo attackers. 10% thought they deserved to be targeted. Of course, there are no words from the SPLC on these topics.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Majid Nawaz should be applauded for their efforts in relegating this (apparently timeless and popular) form of Islam to the past. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away.
ISIS follows a completely plausible reading of the Koran, which is why it doesn't have trouble recruiting from all over the economic spectrum. Jihad, sex slaves, beheading, polygamy, murdering gays, murdering apostates and infidels - these are part and parcel of the faith.
Even when you look outside the jihadist Muslim population, you find significant support for non-liberal values. In the UK, 25% of Muslims had some sympathy for the motives of the Charlie Hebdo attackers. 10% thought they deserved to be targeted. Of course, there are no words from the SPLC on these topics.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Majid Nawaz should be applauded for their efforts in relegating this (apparently timeless and popular) form of Islam to the past. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away.
1
No one doubts Christianity's bloody history, but they (for the most part) left that behind after the middle ages and began a process of Reformation. Muslim extremists continue to follow their prohphet's example to it's murderous end.
ISIS follows a completely plausible reading of the Koran, which is why it doesn't have trouble recruiting from all over the economic spectrum. Jihad, sex slaves, beheading, polygamy, murdering gays, murdering apostates and infidels - these are part and parcel of a plausible reading of the text.
Even when you look outside the jihadist Muslim population, you find significant support for non-liberal values. In the UK, 25% of Muslims had some sympathy for the motives of the Charlie Hebdo attackers. 10% thought they deserved to be targeted. Of course, there are no words from the SPLC on these topics.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Majid Nawaz should be applauded for their efforts in relegating this (apparently timeless and popular) form of Islam to the past. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away.
We rightly challenge the alt-right and white supremacists, we shouldn't shy away from challenging hate in all it's forms.
ISIS follows a completely plausible reading of the Koran, which is why it doesn't have trouble recruiting from all over the economic spectrum. Jihad, sex slaves, beheading, polygamy, murdering gays, murdering apostates and infidels - these are part and parcel of a plausible reading of the text.
Even when you look outside the jihadist Muslim population, you find significant support for non-liberal values. In the UK, 25% of Muslims had some sympathy for the motives of the Charlie Hebdo attackers. 10% thought they deserved to be targeted. Of course, there are no words from the SPLC on these topics.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Majid Nawaz should be applauded for their efforts in relegating this (apparently timeless and popular) form of Islam to the past. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away.
We rightly challenge the alt-right and white supremacists, we shouldn't shy away from challenging hate in all it's forms.
3
The problem is when white liberals appoint themselves as the "gatekeepers" for any debate over these issues, deciding which people of color should be allowed into the conversation and which shouldn't. You don't need to agree with everything Ms. Ali says to see that the SPLC belies its stated mission when it tries to silence people of color who don't toe the line when it comes to the progressive agenda as defined by whites.
36
She mentions ISIS and Al Qaeda, but fans the flames on the fears of sharia law being imposed here - which is absurd. As I say in my comment above, whites don't fear reprisals after a white supreme incident because it doesn't happen, whereas, muslims do fear reprisals after a muslim extremist incident because it does happen.
2
I am a long-time member of SPLC, but I am going to cancel my membership. I was very disturbed when they included several critics of Islamism, including Ms. Ali and Majid Hawaz, on their hate groups list. It is a shame that the SPLC, which has done such valuable work in the past exposing and suing hate groups, including the KKK, should have lost its way when it comes to dealing with radical Islamist terrorism in a reasonable way.
49
She has called for the "defeat of Islam." "Radical Islam?" she was prompted. No, she replied, Islam: there is no middle ground in war, she said.
7
Read their rationale and the hateful words of Ms. Ali before you fall for this misrepresentation.
4
Do you have a citation and or a link to these remarks? I'd like to see them in context.
Hirsi Ali called for the defeat of Islam. Asked whether she didn't mean "radical Islam" she said she didn't. She wanted Islam defeated, she repeated over and over. And now she's "pivoting" in order to trash the SPLC.
24
Depends on what "radical Islam" is supposed to mean. If it means that the Qur'an is the direct unmitigated word of the Islamic deity that is unchanging for eternity and admits of no interpretation other than the surface one, and that Mohammed is the perfect man whose conduct is to be followed by all future generations, then how is that distinguishable for "regular" Islam.
The distinction Westerners would prefer would be between Islam and non-believing (or secular) Muslims - though I suspect that distinction would, in turn, baffle Muslims.
The distinction Westerners would prefer would be between Islam and non-believing (or secular) Muslims - though I suspect that distinction would, in turn, baffle Muslims.
What does 'defeating islam' even mean?
1
I read that differently.
She is arguing that Islam will never reform, i.e. become more liberal, unless it is defeated first, ideologically or militarily. Just as Catholicism had to be challenged and defeated, both ideologically and militarily, before it reformed. Only defeat prompts reexamination, and rejection, of one's premises. As long as it remains unchallenged, it will continue the way it is.
One finds the same argument On the Left: those that reject any semblance of nationalism or white identity, no matter how mild, and are ready to take to the streets to "crush it violently", because they equate it with Nazism, fascism, etc.
She is arguing that Islam will never reform, i.e. become more liberal, unless it is defeated first, ideologically or militarily. Just as Catholicism had to be challenged and defeated, both ideologically and militarily, before it reformed. Only defeat prompts reexamination, and rejection, of one's premises. As long as it remains unchallenged, it will continue the way it is.
One finds the same argument On the Left: those that reject any semblance of nationalism or white identity, no matter how mild, and are ready to take to the streets to "crush it violently", because they equate it with Nazism, fascism, etc.
1
This is/was a HUGE lapse of judgement on the part of the SPLC, but I don't agree that it should be defunded. It's a blunt instrument, but it's still a weapon against hate groups.
3
A big part of the problem is that most people, on both the Right and the Left, cannot seem to grasp the difference between criticism of Islam (as a doctrine and set of ideas) and bigotry against Muslims (as people). The former is laudable; the latter is not.
This confusion is best summed up by the Canadian-Pakistani author Ali Rizvi: "The Right is wrong about Muslims; the Left is wrong about Islam."
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is clearly not bigoted against Muslims as people. She rightly criticizes specific illiberal and violent doctrines that are inherent (and often unique to) Islam, e.g. apostasy, martyrdom, Paradise, jihad, Shariah, etc.). This is the *liberal* thing to do.
The SPLC's moral confusion and intellectual dishonesty for labeling her (and other liberals like her) as "anti-Muslim extremists" is unconscionable.
This confusion is best summed up by the Canadian-Pakistani author Ali Rizvi: "The Right is wrong about Muslims; the Left is wrong about Islam."
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is clearly not bigoted against Muslims as people. She rightly criticizes specific illiberal and violent doctrines that are inherent (and often unique to) Islam, e.g. apostasy, martyrdom, Paradise, jihad, Shariah, etc.). This is the *liberal* thing to do.
The SPLC's moral confusion and intellectual dishonesty for labeling her (and other liberals like her) as "anti-Muslim extremists" is unconscionable.
151
Absolutely right, Mark B. And Ali Rizvi is an excellent source of information on this topic. I appreciate your mention of him.
6
Islam is not a monolithic religion, any more than other religions. I'd distinguish broadly between fundamentalist Islam and non-fundamentalist Islam for starters.
1
I'm sorry but being either "right" or "wrong" about Islam is meaningless, and therefore dangerous. Are liberals "wrong about Islam" when they try to insist on the difference between different Islamic cultures and sects? When they refuse the objectively false claim of conservatives that Islam is not a religion but an pathological "ideology"?
1
There exists a naivety among liberals that essentially all traditions, especially religious traditions, should be respected, and that people outside the tradition are ill-equipped to judge those traditions in a proper cultural context. This is poppycock. Female genital mutilation, a common practice in many Muslim societies, is a perfect example of tradition that has always been heinous, was never justifiable, and should be condemned by any right-thinking person. There are many other heinous traditions in unreformed Muslim societies, including the treatment of women as property, abuse of women, and disenfranchisement of women. Tolerance of such traditions is in no way liberal. Just as liberals opposed and helped to overturn Jim Crow laws, so should liberals insist on reformation of a broadly pervasive Islamic tradition that treats women as sub-human.
I lived in Iran for three years and in Indonesia for three years. I interacted with Muslims daily and counted many of them among my friends. Just like other people around the world, most Muslims I've known were good people. But the intolerant beliefs propagated by many Muslim leaders are wrong and should be argued against until they are recognized as barbarism and rejected.
I lived in Iran for three years and in Indonesia for three years. I interacted with Muslims daily and counted many of them among my friends. Just like other people around the world, most Muslims I've known were good people. But the intolerant beliefs propagated by many Muslim leaders are wrong and should be argued against until they are recognized as barbarism and rejected.
133
My guess is that this (classsical) liberal is the victim of identity politics, post-modernism and intersectionality...you know, the current neo-Marxist hogwash that creates bigots on the left.
One would think that after witnessing our first run-in with identity politics (i.e., the KKK) we'd avoid this poison, which drives us apart and removes a sense of agency from peoples' lives. Unfortunately, It would appear few are students of history.
One would think that after witnessing our first run-in with identity politics (i.e., the KKK) we'd avoid this poison, which drives us apart and removes a sense of agency from peoples' lives. Unfortunately, It would appear few are students of history.
12
"Mr. Nawaz has written extensively about his past as an Islamic extremist in England and Egypt, just as I’ve written about my time in the Muslim Brotherhood as a teenager. For the past decade, he has run Quilliam, an organization dedicated to countering Islamic extremism in Britain and elsewhere, notably in Pakistan."
It's really hard to come back in the US once you have spent time in any Islamic extreme organization. You don't get to be a spokesperson anymore. The only thing you can do is encourage others to speak out for debate. As an activist, you are finished in the mainstream.
It's really hard to come back in the US once you have spent time in any Islamic extreme organization. You don't get to be a spokesperson anymore. The only thing you can do is encourage others to speak out for debate. As an activist, you are finished in the mainstream.
1
She certainly sounds like an extremist to me.
5
Please elaborate. Seriously, how does she sound like an extremist in this piece?
11
In hew own article she references the SPLC's "Field Guide to Anti-Muslim Extremists" where it clear states why the SPLC regards her as such. Statements about the author's past and the quotes attributed to her could easily be independently verified. If the information is correct, including in the original context, then that would be a good basis for people deciding if the designation by the SPLC is correct.
10
Thank you New York Times for publishing the well written, articulate opinion of Ayaan Hirsi Ali. I have not decided whether I agree with her, or how this influences my support for the SPLC, but I've learned a lot from and about a passionate Woman that I'd never heard of before. She may have provocative thoughts, but she knows how to express herself. Healthy debate material. So Presidential. More like this, please!
33
Don't fall for this shameless piece of self-promotion that the NYT gave a forum. The SPLC is an excellent organization and has not strayed from it's mission.
2
I greatly admire, and am a strong supporter of Ayaan Hirsi Ali. She is targeted by Muslims because she left the faith. She is a wise, fair, polite (very important in this time of short tempers), outspoken, and interesting speaker and writer. She supports all human rights. Islam requires that any person leaving the faith must be killed - that is the fatwa against her, proscribed in the Koran and enforced by True Believers. In addition, American evangelicals despise her because she's a strong outspoken, independent woman who supports science and says that religion is not for every one. She questions the basis for all religions but understands that some people must have them. She herself is now non-religious. I have seen her repeatedly attacked by men who can barely conceal their hatred for women. I've watched Muslim women attack her for leaving the faith and opposing religious brain washing. Muslim men are doubly angry at her because of her strength and ability to write and speak publicly. She is also a beautiful woman who was featured in Vogue when Vanity Fair selected her as one of the 100 most interesting people in the world some years ago. I have bought and read all of her books which I encourage all young women to read. Men don't seem to be interested in them, unfortunately! Hirsi Ali is a model for all women of how to successful, warm, engaging, powerful, and feminine!
59
Many Islamophobes are not aware that they are as much a fringe group as the jihadists. Southern Poverty Law Center has been fighting a valiant fight against hate and bigotry. It deserves the Nobel Peace Prize.
14
Nice! Equating "islamophobes" ie, those critical of Islam, with jihadists is the kind of confused and hypocritical rhetoric that Hirsi Ali is talking about.
13
The concern about being labeled Islamophobic for criticizing Muslim extremists reminds me of how so many folks hesitate to call out the Israeli government for its settlements and other human rights abuses because they don't want to be called anti-Semetic...Whatever your opinion on either issue, it is important that we all stop conflating the actions of specific bodies (governments, terrorist groups) with the throngs of individuals with whom these bodies share a culture or faith.
13
Excellent point!
The SPLC may be the epicenter of the regressive left. Anti-free speech, anti-Jewish, apologists for Islamic turpitude and extremism. Their positions and attitudes is one of the reasons that many independents voted for Donald Trump.
12
This is a spurious article. Ayaan Hirsi Ali found a profitable political cause in Theo van Gogh's film, and she has exploited it ever since. Her main claim is to convince us of the obvious: that Al Qaeda and ISIS are dangerous, that genital mutilation is bad, etc. This becomes the springboard for alignment with right-wing racists, sweeping assertions of the faults of Islam, and the claim that leftists and liberals support religious tyranny. Yet that last conclusion, on display in this article, is a total misrepresentation.
Leftists and liberals correctly perceive that US resource greed combined with deep racism in American society has helped motivate an endless series of wars in the Arab world. Muslim populations have always been the losers. Count the bombs, count the dead, and think about it. In this analysis, the actions of the US have a crucial responsibility for the very existence of war and terrorism in the Middle East. It is because we are clear about the threats of Islamist extremism that we insist on eliminating their sources in the civil and military behaviors of the United States, where we as citizens have direct influence. To go on stoking racism and war is to invite disaster, again and again.
In this struggle, the Southern Poverty Law Center is a leading force. By contrast, Ayaan Hirsi Ali has allowed herself to become a self-interested pundit serving the agendas of conservatives, whose veiled prejudices have facilitated the open hate-mongering of Donald Trump.
Leftists and liberals correctly perceive that US resource greed combined with deep racism in American society has helped motivate an endless series of wars in the Arab world. Muslim populations have always been the losers. Count the bombs, count the dead, and think about it. In this analysis, the actions of the US have a crucial responsibility for the very existence of war and terrorism in the Middle East. It is because we are clear about the threats of Islamist extremism that we insist on eliminating their sources in the civil and military behaviors of the United States, where we as citizens have direct influence. To go on stoking racism and war is to invite disaster, again and again.
In this struggle, the Southern Poverty Law Center is a leading force. By contrast, Ayaan Hirsi Ali has allowed herself to become a self-interested pundit serving the agendas of conservatives, whose veiled prejudices have facilitated the open hate-mongering of Donald Trump.
5
Wow -- you wouldn't think she called on the defeat not of "radical Islam" but of "all Islam."
REASON magazine asked her: "Do you think Islam could bring about... social and political changes [similar to what liberal Catholicism did]?"
Hirsi Ali: Only if Islam is defeated. Because right now, the political side of Islam, the power-hungry expansionist side of Islam, has become superior to the Sufis and the Ismailis and the peace-seeking Muslims.
Reason: Don’t you mean defeating radical Islam?
Hirsi Ali: No. Islam, period. Once it’s defeated, it can mutate into something peaceful. It’s very difficult to even talk about peace now. They’re not interested in peace.
Reason: We have to crush the world’s 1.5 billion Muslims under our boot? In concrete terms, what does that mean, “defeat Islam”?
Hirsi Ali: I think that we are at war with Islam. And there’s no middle ground in wars. Islam can be defeated in many ways... There is infiltration of Islam in the schools and universities of the West. You stop that. You stop the symbol burning and the effigy burning, and you look them in the eye and flex your muscles and you say, “This is a warning. We won’t accept this anymore.” There comes a moment when you crush your enemy.
Reason: Militarily?
Hirsi Ali: In all forms, and if you don’t do that, then you have to live with the consequence of being crushed.
http://reason.com/archives/2007/10/10/the-trouble-is-the-west/1
REASON magazine asked her: "Do you think Islam could bring about... social and political changes [similar to what liberal Catholicism did]?"
Hirsi Ali: Only if Islam is defeated. Because right now, the political side of Islam, the power-hungry expansionist side of Islam, has become superior to the Sufis and the Ismailis and the peace-seeking Muslims.
Reason: Don’t you mean defeating radical Islam?
Hirsi Ali: No. Islam, period. Once it’s defeated, it can mutate into something peaceful. It’s very difficult to even talk about peace now. They’re not interested in peace.
Reason: We have to crush the world’s 1.5 billion Muslims under our boot? In concrete terms, what does that mean, “defeat Islam”?
Hirsi Ali: I think that we are at war with Islam. And there’s no middle ground in wars. Islam can be defeated in many ways... There is infiltration of Islam in the schools and universities of the West. You stop that. You stop the symbol burning and the effigy burning, and you look them in the eye and flex your muscles and you say, “This is a warning. We won’t accept this anymore.” There comes a moment when you crush your enemy.
Reason: Militarily?
Hirsi Ali: In all forms, and if you don’t do that, then you have to live with the consequence of being crushed.
http://reason.com/archives/2007/10/10/the-trouble-is-the-west/1
9
Clearly she is speaking politically (because she says this) not ending Islam as a religion. And that is what people don't understand. The reformation ended the alliance of Christianity with the nation-state. That prepared the way for a more peaceful christianity to come forth. Right now in all too many countries Islam and undemocratic nation-states are tied together making it impossible for human rights to prosper.
9
If she's a liberal, she's probably the only one who is a research fellow at the Hoover Institute, a well known home for neoconservatives. I'd certainly take the word of the SPLC over anyone at it.
168
She does much more for freedom than your hero Linda Sarsour
29
Which says more about you than anything Else.
7
Then you would be committing the genetic fallacy. The political stance of the Hoover Institute does not magically negate her criticism of Islam and Islamic extremists.
5
Consider the source. I googled the Hoover Institute and this is what I found: https://www.quora.com/How-conservative-is-the-Hoover-Institution.
Based on this information, I'm sticking with SPLC -- at least until I learn more from a more credible source.
Based on this information, I'm sticking with SPLC -- at least until I learn more from a more credible source.
83
Read the Nation, Harper's, and Politico articles she cites. The Atlantic has covered this, too. The SPLC is not what it once was. It is now on the illiberal side of one kind of progressivism. It targets individuals to make it impossible for them to speak freely, on some controversies, putting pressure on their employers, etc. It also has a very broad conception of hate speech that captures some religious groups who have theological teachings on sexuality and sexual practices. The articles above will give more examples.
17
Just look at the cspan videos of Hoover Institute.... there are many for conservative causes. Today they discussed anti union laws. They want to make the U.S. a completely 'right to work' country, for public unions, thus removing whatever union power still remains.
1
AYAAN HIRSI ALI history of fraudulence exposes the fact that her "positions" are just ploys to make a living. All of what she initially cited as her proofs about how Islam is bad were lies. She is in the US because she fled Denmark in fear of being arrested for defrauding them out of citizenship by claiming to be a refugee from the Somali Civil war and a honor killing death threat from her family for leaving her husband. Turns out he paid her way to Europe from Kenya where she had moved before the Somali war thinking she was coming to be with him in Canada.
Its all lies made up to appeal to the bigoted fears of bigoted people with deep pockets.
She has constructed a persona and plays to them for a living by telling them what they say they fear is in fact real. Anyone so inclined could do it.
Its all lies made up to appeal to the bigoted fears of bigoted people with deep pockets.
She has constructed a persona and plays to them for a living by telling them what they say they fear is in fact real. Anyone so inclined could do it.
3
Interesting. While I am not conversant with every issue Ali raises, she definitely has some points that the SPLC should use to correct its actions.
13
Call me cynical but the S.P.L.C.'s bank account seems to grow along with the number of "hate" groups it identifies. Coincidence?
23
I don't know whether the SPLC is in the wrong here but I do know they do important work. The author does not offer enough specifics to allow me to understand what it is she has said or done that has caused the SPLC to take the action she objects to. Instead of offering generalities such as the fact that she has worked to call out extremist groups such as Al Quaeda and ISIS (which most would agree is a good thing, and something that I have to believe the SPLC would not criticize), it would have been helpful if she had been more direct in stating the cause of her dispute with the SPLC.
42
Click on the link in her column that takes you to the SPLC list. It explains why people generally are on the list and why each one specifically is.
What SPLC has in common with Trump is a flat out refusal to admit being wrong. I sympathise with you being under constant threat of death at the hand on Islamists but SPLC will never admit that you have a legitimate voice.
19
Some African Americans have long had this relationship with Islam to the extent that they favor head covering of girls and women. Their identity with Islam has become very defensive. The SPLC is on the side of this branding, so to speak, of women.
10
There is absolutely nothing liberal about condemning an entire religion for the actions of a tiny percentage. I do not understand why Ms. Ali has been given space in the pages of the New York Times, but I am donating the amount I used to pay for my subscription to the SPLC today.
86
If you read the op-ed, which I'm not sure you did, you would realize that Ms. Ali did not condemn all Muslims, only Islamic extremists. In fact, she pointed out that most of the victims of Islamic extremists are other Muslims. Before you offhandedly condemn someone's viewpoint you should read what they say carefully. Ms. Ali is speaking from the inside of Islam, based on her experiences as a young woman in Somalia, a member of parliament in the Netherlands, and as an advocate for Muslim women.
10
Alec, you can read Ayaan Hirsi Ali's book, Infidel, to have some appreciation from which perspective she is coming. Her book talked about having grown up in a majority Muslim country. She was also exposed to liberal ideas in what she read. When it came time for to be forced into an arranged marriage, she was able to escape and reside in Holland. What I appreciated with her story, was the authentic courage she had have to face the facts and decide what the truth was. Unfortunately, not many people have read her book, so they have no sense of the person they are critiquing. I am a college professor, and I always tell my students that they have to truly understand a position before they can honestly critique it. As much as I support the Southern Poverty Law Center, I think that to honestly evaluate the writer, we should go beyond a simple heuristic approach of making the association that SPLC is good, so therefore, the speaker must be bad. Logic and fairness require actually learning what the author has to say and why. I think most of the criticism here is not based on honestly evaluating the speaker.
10
Now, in a fury of righteous consistency, you will join me and start questioning the comments editor(s) of the NYT who fawn over commenter "gemli" whose "erudition" has included blaming an entire religion (Christianity) for the rise of ISIS and just about every other negative thing except "the heartbreak of psoriasis" to borrow an old ad campaign slogan.
1
Ms. Ali is a Dutchwoman who has little apparent understanding of the anti-Muslim environment that has been nurtured and grown here in the United States by the far right and its Fox News mouthpiece. The vast majority of SPLC's efforts are geared toward addressing discrimination and hate crimes against minorities (of all kinds). The fact that liberal intellectuals such as Ali and Nawaz may get caught up in SPLC's sights is indeed misguided and needs to be corrected, but the organization shouldn't be bashed and sucked dry of its resources as Ali seems to desire.
SPLC is one of the last defenses that an otherwise powerless American Muslim community has against the viciousness they endure in some communities, especially in the South. The stakes are simply too high to get tripped up on the hurt feelings of a handful of intellectuals whose dire warnings about shariah are mostly irrelevant here in the US. Shariah stands NO chance of being implemented here with Muslims accounting for about 1% of the population, far less than many European nations.
SPLC is one of the last defenses that an otherwise powerless American Muslim community has against the viciousness they endure in some communities, especially in the South. The stakes are simply too high to get tripped up on the hurt feelings of a handful of intellectuals whose dire warnings about shariah are mostly irrelevant here in the US. Shariah stands NO chance of being implemented here with Muslims accounting for about 1% of the population, far less than many European nations.
299
You are sorely mistaken if you think Muslims in US are powerless. Some of the wealthiest Muslims in the world live here and money is pumped from Muslim majority countries all the time to support mosques. Saudi Arabia is particularly talented at exporting their Salafist strain of Islam through well-funded mosques. CAIR has a very strong foundation as does the Muslim Brotherhood.
Sharia is practiced whether the host states like it or not. We find evidence of this time and time again in US and Europe. They don't require our consent to subject their own people to Sharia.
It is clear to me you have never read any of Ayaan's books.
Sharia is practiced whether the host states like it or not. We find evidence of this time and time again in US and Europe. They don't require our consent to subject their own people to Sharia.
It is clear to me you have never read any of Ayaan's books.
13
Ms. Hirsi is not only well aware of but is making a very comfortable living as a spokesperson of the far right.
2
Thank you...
I am a lifelong liberal. But, I was born a female. I have very serious issues with those that as so politically correct, so afraid of " offending" that they actually defend Muslim extremists, and censure those that speak out and even disagree. I'm speaking out, NOW. Open your eyes, and ears. How are Women and girls treated in most Muslim communities??? Second class would be a serious upgrade. Get over yourself, and your prissy theories and politeness. Real women and girls are suffering, NOW.
That concerns us all. Or, at least it should. When ANY religion seems to be about giving Males an excuse for atrocious behavior, they lose all claims to demand respect. I'm done. I stand for equality, respect and simple dignity
For females. Keep your " religion" to yourself OR invent a time machine.
It's now 2017. Wake up.
That concerns us all. Or, at least it should. When ANY religion seems to be about giving Males an excuse for atrocious behavior, they lose all claims to demand respect. I'm done. I stand for equality, respect and simple dignity
For females. Keep your " religion" to yourself OR invent a time machine.
It's now 2017. Wake up.
109
I agree that this any almost any path forward lies in more debate, more scrutiny, and more critical thinking - and that it is essential to question who benefits from the activities of an organization. In that vein, do you have suggestions of who to support instead of SPLC? Instead of listing your observations of SPLC's wrong-doing, it would also be helpful to have an alternative list of others to support - just as you say the SPLC should have a list of extremists, not just a list of those opposed.
2
I have become increasingly concerned by the SPLC (a group I had given to for a number of years) views regarding those who want to have a serious debate about the discrimination and bias within pockets of the Islamic faith. To label individuals and place them on blacklists is a strategy reminiscent of the HUAC hearings in this country and has no place in an organization devoted to equality and justice for the oppressed. Ms. Ali has been on a number of controversial 'watchlists' despite her relentless words and struggle for the exploited, the oppressed, the forlorn. This is all the more puzzling given that she is female, African, a woman who was targeted for assassination, and a victim, herself, of genital mutilation. Politics makes for strange bedfellows and presently if one is not 'leftist' enough for the liberal masses than ones' other bonafides are apparently dismissed.
32
Ms. Ali, I applaud your bravery and honesty. Because of revelations from you and Maajid Nawaz, I have decided not to financially support the SPLC. "Politically correct" has gone way too far if one cannot criticize Islamist extremists, or any extremists who advocate violence, for that matter.
320
Please - for your own sake - READ MS. ALI'S WORDS in the documentation provided by the SPLC - she is not criticizing extremists, but all Muslims.....oh never mind. You clearly want to believe that this is an issue of political correctness which sadly to some, is a greater evil than the underlying bigotry proposed as the remedy. Shameful.
3
Jan,
She's isn't what she claims to be. I suggest you research her views before you support her. The SPLC is not just politically correct (in the best sense and not the distorted insult you imply) but a moral beacon. I will leave most of my estate to them with gratitude for their goodness.
She's isn't what she claims to be. I suggest you research her views before you support her. The SPLC is not just politically correct (in the best sense and not the distorted insult you imply) but a moral beacon. I will leave most of my estate to them with gratitude for their goodness.
Except you didn't speak up for the human rights of Muslims, you called for the defeat of Islam. And you've made a number of inflammatory and frankly bigoted statements over the years. You also have a fast and loose relationship with the truth, and made a number of statements that rise to the level of the charge laid by the SPLC.
69
What is missing is reasoned discourse on separating the wheat from the chaff. Any group, whether a religion or political movement can have people of principle and some pretty bad ones as well. We must not paint everyone with the same broad brush. Open discussion without getting angry in the first few minutes is the only way to arrive at any kind of sane conclusion. I dream that people will get tired of arguing in circles and decide that getting this world back on track is more important than having the same arguments continuously, without really listening or getting anywhere. I do not give all ideas and opinions, especially views based on hate, the same value, but I think divergent points of view need to be allowed in a discussion. Ms. Ali was obviously traumatized; she can be supported for being against extremist elements of her former religion. She can still be called out for becoming a tool of a right-wing organization and going to extremes in condemning all of Islam and it's adherents. If she is able to moderate her most extreme views, she will not be on a list of hate groups.
@Humanbeing -
"she can be supported for being against extremist elements of her former religion"
If she were simply against "extremist elements," there would be no problem. She repeatedly condemns Islam generally and advocates that it be "crushed". The anti-Muslim right-wing is able to make good use of her condemnations. Search for her name on Pamela Geller's web site.
Alternet, BTW, had an article about why Ms. Ali's life might not have been as traumatizing as she has claimed. You might want to look at Exposing Anti-Islam Author Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s Latest Deception (http://www.alternet.org/media/anti-islam-author-ayaan-hirsi-alis-latest-.... I admit I don't know what the truth is about her life, but the SPLC is joined by a number of other liberal organizations in questioning her story.
"she can be supported for being against extremist elements of her former religion"
If she were simply against "extremist elements," there would be no problem. She repeatedly condemns Islam generally and advocates that it be "crushed". The anti-Muslim right-wing is able to make good use of her condemnations. Search for her name on Pamela Geller's web site.
Alternet, BTW, had an article about why Ms. Ali's life might not have been as traumatizing as she has claimed. You might want to look at Exposing Anti-Islam Author Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s Latest Deception (http://www.alternet.org/media/anti-islam-author-ayaan-hirsi-alis-latest-.... I admit I don't know what the truth is about her life, but the SPLC is joined by a number of other liberal organizations in questioning her story.
1
uuuh!! i copy the note on the writer:
Ayaan Hirsi Ali (@ayaan) is a research fellow at the Hoover Institution and founder of the AHA Foundation . . .
hmmmm.
now the 'truth' comes out!!
the Hoover Institution . . .
emblematically non-liberal, rightist, and rather krypto version of such masques as "alec", and the koch broz, and oooh, illuminati, and other protoFascist enterprises.
for a minute i was aghast, at the NYTimes sponsoring yet another 'ideological' benchmark.
but all is revealed (to me, at least)
hmmm. don't forget that name: the hoover institution.
check out some of their other political positions.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali (@ayaan) is a research fellow at the Hoover Institution and founder of the AHA Foundation . . .
hmmmm.
now the 'truth' comes out!!
the Hoover Institution . . .
emblematically non-liberal, rightist, and rather krypto version of such masques as "alec", and the koch broz, and oooh, illuminati, and other protoFascist enterprises.
for a minute i was aghast, at the NYTimes sponsoring yet another 'ideological' benchmark.
but all is revealed (to me, at least)
hmmm. don't forget that name: the hoover institution.
check out some of their other political positions.
34
I wonder why she'd be so interested in this particular topic? Perhaps it's because she's the victim of FGM and has her life threatened at every corner for wanting to escape the culture that attacked her and her family?
14
Ms. Ali deserves to be targeted by the SPLC because of her association with the Hoover Institution? Is that what you're saying?
2
No one outside of the media or DC takes SPLC seriously, they are simply another organization that singles out individuals or groups for hate and shame. It's extra slimy that they leverage their credibility from the civil rights movements of decades ago to raise money to spread their hate.
Kudos to the Times for giving Ms. Hirsi a voice, by the way.
Kudos to the Times for giving Ms. Hirsi a voice, by the way.
25
Wrong. We live in CA and my brother has been reading and donating to SPLC for years.
2
My mother supported SLPC until she died last year at age 92. She was a white woman, who never graduated from high school, a widow for over 40 years who lived in a tiny apartment on a very small fixed income. She supported SLPC because she despised racist, right wing extremists. She lived through WWII. My father, a bronze-star hero, was disabled for life in the Battle of the Bulge. My mother and father were about as far away from the currently-twisted definition of "elite" as you can get. But they saw what right-wing hatred brought to the world. She took the SLPC very seriously. In lieu of flowers, that's where we asked for contributions when she died. It's not just the Clooneys of the world that support the work of the SLPC. It is patriotic Americans from every walk of life.
7
Sadly many "liberals" would rather listen to Linda Sarsour than Ayaan Hirsi Ali, which is strange given that the former openly mocked the latter on Twitter for being a victim of Female Genital Mutilation.
42
I don't have a problem with Op-Eds that question popularly lauded organization, but this one is not at all reflective and offers skin-deep analysis. There's no consideration of why the author finds herself on the list, and no reference to the SPLC's mission or positive work. Overall, I feel like the editor should have worked more with the author to raise the standards to those of the NYT, or else not publish this. It just reads like a personal attack on the SPLC..
148
I never thought that the SPLC was so balanced. I always thought they just smeared conservative groups. Good for them. I have new founded respect where none existed.
2
I just looked up your wikipedia profile, and it seems to me you are doing nothing that is a threat to our country. You may be a threat to traditional Islam by calling out the negative influence on women. There is no clear explanation about why the Council on Islamic-American Relations would protest honoring you with a degree from Brandeis. Because you oppose female genital mutilation? Because you oppose honor killings?
I am very disappointed by your designation by the SPLC. I have been supportive of their work for years. They have provided me with excellent teaching materials through their "Teaching Tolerance" program, and I have always appreciated their efforts opposing white extremism. I plan on calling them today to voice my concern, and it will be reflected in my planned giving for 2018. I hope George and Amal see your article.
Thank you for all you do.
I am very disappointed by your designation by the SPLC. I have been supportive of their work for years. They have provided me with excellent teaching materials through their "Teaching Tolerance" program, and I have always appreciated their efforts opposing white extremism. I plan on calling them today to voice my concern, and it will be reflected in my planned giving for 2018. I hope George and Amal see your article.
Thank you for all you do.
26
Instead of just looking up her wikipedia profile, why didn't you follow the link in the column to the SPLC list on which Ms. Ali is included. It explains why she is there. Then, you might want to read the ThinkProgress article, Why Brandeis Revoked Its Invitation For Ayaan Hirsi Ali To Receive An Honorary Degree (https://thinkprogress.org/why-brandeis-revoked-its-invitation-for-ayaan-....
And remember, Ms. Ali is a big favorite of Pamela Geller. Search for Ms. Ali's name at Geller's site.
Too bad Ms. Ali has succeeded in doing damage to the SPLC with this dishonest column.
And remember, Ms. Ali is a big favorite of Pamela Geller. Search for Ms. Ali's name at Geller's site.
Too bad Ms. Ali has succeeded in doing damage to the SPLC with this dishonest column.
2
It is deeply unfortunate that SPLC has morphed from an organization with a laudable and successful mission into a self-perpetuating fund raising machine. The current generation of leaders have abandoned the non-partisan goal of combating extremism and turned into just another part of Democratic party establishment.
The admission that they are "not set up to track left wing extremism" is quite telling, and robbed them of much legitimacy in my eyes. To quote the Chief Orangutan of the United States - "Sad!".
The admission that they are "not set up to track left wing extremism" is quite telling, and robbed them of much legitimacy in my eyes. To quote the Chief Orangutan of the United States - "Sad!".
22
Where did you see this "admission"? And what "left wing extremism" are you referring to? General opinion (outside of the alt-right) is that organized left wing extremism was responsible for most of the violence during the late 60s and early 70s but has pretty much died out since then in the U.S. Which is not to say there is no left wing extremism, just that what there is either not violent or, when violence is involved, is not the result of organized groups, but mostly "lone wolf" type activities. That may be changing, of course, with the growth of antifa, emerging black nationalist groups (which aren't exactly "left wing" though), and the continuing escalation of provocation coming from white supremacists. Time will tell.
In the meantime, the SPLC has several articles on their website about the re-emergence of violent black nationalists. In one they say:
"Black Nationalist Groups of Concern
Although not necessarily violent themselves, groups such as the Nation of Islam (NOI), New Black Panther Party (NBPP), New Black Panther Nation (NBPN), and the Five-Percent Nation attract violent individuals whom they indoctrinate and push toward extremism. The following list of groups represents the more prominent organizations within the Black Nationalist movement in the United States today."
The list of seven groups includes information about them and their beliefs.
In the meantime, the SPLC has several articles on their website about the re-emergence of violent black nationalists. In one they say:
"Black Nationalist Groups of Concern
Although not necessarily violent themselves, groups such as the Nation of Islam (NOI), New Black Panther Party (NBPP), New Black Panther Nation (NBPN), and the Five-Percent Nation attract violent individuals whom they indoctrinate and push toward extremism. The following list of groups represents the more prominent organizations within the Black Nationalist movement in the United States today."
The list of seven groups includes information about them and their beliefs.
Sorry - I'm with the SPLC. Link through to Ayaan Hirsi Ali's own words, not the self-serving, heavily edited piece here. And, most regrettably, she is only in support of free speech for those who think like her.
66
The sad truth about what has become of the SPLC has been known for some time. As Ali points out, The Nation, Harpers, and other sources have published on this. No one should be supporting the SPLC at this point.
12
The SPLC is not perfect. I am a regular supporter, and I once contacted them over what I felt was unfair treatment of a Youtube blogger who advocated Palestinian rights as a dangerous anti-Semite. In the case at hand, however, one just needs to look at what SPLC has said about this woman to know that their criticism is justified. If even only half of the SPLC's numerous allegations are true (and I trust their accuracy is much better than that), then she should be targeted as a hate monger. Anyone who paints all of Islam with such a broad brush to say such things as “we are at war with Islam. and calling Islams a “destructive, nihilistic cult of death” is only serving as a tool of the far right in its effort to create fear and hatred of all things Islam. https://www.splcenter.org/20161025/journalists-manual-field-guide-anti-m...
20
I absolutely agree with Ms. Hirsi-Ali. Even though I'm an annual donor to the SPLC myself (though not as big a spender as Mr. Clooney, to be sure), I'm grateful to her for pointing out the horribly misguided choices of the SPLC with regard to voices critical of Islam. When I heard of the inclusion of Majid Naawaz and her in the SPLC's list, I made the decision to stop donating to the organization. Make no mistake: anti-Muslim bigotry exists, and people like Ms. Hirsi-Ali and Majid Naawaz will be the first to say so, but to silence and shame all legitimate discussion of the failings of a major world religion is misguided, and in this specific case also dangerous: true Muslim extremists, as Ms. Hirsi-Ali's fate shows, will stop at nothing to act against "heretics" - and the SPLC's list is essentially a hit-list for them. Shame on the SPLC.
314
ARE you a citizen of the US? Just curious..?? Is the author a citizen here?
Marc, before you abandon one of the most worthwhile organizations protecting all of us from hateful rhetoric and it's unfortunate consequences, I strongly suggest you research Ms. Hirsi Ali's unsupported diatribes. It really isn't that hard to discern exaggerations and lies if you try.
1
Why not contact the SPLC and indicate your displeasure and give the Center a chance to respond? I know the Center isn't perfect--what human institution is?--but, based on my own research, I know it isn't either capricious or mindless when it makes judgment calls about how to classify individuals or groups. Perhaps the answer would not satisfy you and you would still choose to withdraw support, but what's the harm in asking it to defend its choices?
Bravo. Though I consider myself left of center, the myopia of much of the "Left" regarding Islamic extremism, and the free pass oftentimes given to Islamists regarding virulent anti-semitism, homophobia, and general intolerance towards other faiths, makes me wary of organizations such as the S.P.L.C.
19
Seriously, NYT? The Hoover Institute? The American Enterprise Institute? Ayaan Hirsi Magam may choose to lie her way through life, but your headline over this intentionally inaccurate editorial and her 'credential's tell the truth loud and clear.
I am disgusted that the NYT would choose to participate in profiling the millions of decent Muslims throughout the world by pushing this neo-con attention-seeker, the moral and personality equivalent of our Putin-installed faux president and his regime of racist xenophobes.
The 'old gray lady' = The Queen of False Equivalency.
I am disgusted that the NYT would choose to participate in profiling the millions of decent Muslims throughout the world by pushing this neo-con attention-seeker, the moral and personality equivalent of our Putin-installed faux president and his regime of racist xenophobes.
The 'old gray lady' = The Queen of False Equivalency.
8
I agree that the SPLC seems to have lost its way. For example, their characterization of Charles Murray as a White Nationalist is just way over the top.
8
By her own description of her activities, the author is a professional anti-Islam activist. The SPLC monitors hate in all its forms. Why wouldn't it list her in its guidebook?
5
This is the same SPLC that claims that the largest category of "hate group" in the country today is Black and/or Muslim.
The company counted 201 Black and Black Muslim groups for 2016, which far outnumbers its 130 alleged Klan groups outright, and all of its alleged neo-Nazi, racist skinhead and white nationalist groups by two-to-one, respectively.
The SPLC also claims that its 101 anti-Muslim "hate groups" pose an existential threat, but nobody in the media seems to believe that the SPLC's 89 Muslim "hate groups" are even newsworthy. That's nearly a one-to-one ratio and yet no one is reporting on it because it doesn’t fit the narrative.
If the SPLC are going to be your go-to "experts" then you have to accept ALL of their claims, no matter how patently ridiculous they are.
The company counted 201 Black and Black Muslim groups for 2016, which far outnumbers its 130 alleged Klan groups outright, and all of its alleged neo-Nazi, racist skinhead and white nationalist groups by two-to-one, respectively.
The SPLC also claims that its 101 anti-Muslim "hate groups" pose an existential threat, but nobody in the media seems to believe that the SPLC's 89 Muslim "hate groups" are even newsworthy. That's nearly a one-to-one ratio and yet no one is reporting on it because it doesn’t fit the narrative.
If the SPLC are going to be your go-to "experts" then you have to accept ALL of their claims, no matter how patently ridiculous they are.
2
It's dangerous for one organization to have a virtual monopoly on naming and shaming those espousing beliefs that are supposedly outside the boundaries of the acceptable. The Southern Poverty Law Center is a perfect example of this. Its objectivity in making such judgments has been on a downward spiral for some time now, to the point where virtually anyone not hoeing to far left ideology it now considers to be spewing hate. It was disheartening in the last couple of weeks to see how unthinkingly and reflexively news organizations, including the Times, have turned to the SPLC for guidance. We badly need a more objective source. The SPLC was a hero in its time, but has lost its way.
24
Sometimes organization like the SPLC do things that seem hard to explain. For example, why would the NAACP fight charter schools that are clearly in the best interest of inner city kids?
It’s because these organizations are occupying a mere niche in an overarching movement to diminish the influence of the Western world. If what you’re really after is to weaken the primacy of individuals in favor of some collective, moves the the SPLC and NAACP begin to make a lot of sense. Yes, majority Muslim states treat women as second class citizens, but at least those countries aren’t capitalist.
It’s because these organizations are occupying a mere niche in an overarching movement to diminish the influence of the Western world. If what you’re really after is to weaken the primacy of individuals in favor of some collective, moves the the SPLC and NAACP begin to make a lot of sense. Yes, majority Muslim states treat women as second class citizens, but at least those countries aren’t capitalist.
4
Given the attacks on the SPLC's finances and current endowment, here're their financials.
https://www.splcenter.org/about/financial-information
They're right onna website, you know. And you can also check them out on Charity Navigator.
Perhaps some of the attackers would care to supply similar info for their side? You could start with the President's charities (and I use the term loosely), and then perhaps track the financials down for Ms. ALi?
https://www.splcenter.org/about/financial-information
They're right onna website, you know. And you can also check them out on Charity Navigator.
Perhaps some of the attackers would care to supply similar info for their side? You could start with the President's charities (and I use the term loosely), and then perhaps track the financials down for Ms. ALi?
5
As a supporter of the SPLC I think Ms Ali makes some good points and would like to see the SPLC's response. For awhile now I've felt a little bit uncomfortable with their high-gloss marketing materials and hyperbolic approach to their newsletters and magazines.
7
Follow the link to the Field Guide to Anti-Muslim Extremists included in the article to find out why she's on their list. You may still disagree that she should be, but you'll nevertheless have a better understanding of why she's there.
3
Ms. Ali - you are well known for making a career out of provocative anti-Muslim statements.
You are certainly a black woman and a former Muslim - all your other self-definitions are thrown into question by the people who fund you. Being black is not a formula for virtue as evinced by our black Supreme Court justice.
Unfortunately, your relationship to the truth is also not unblemished to say the least. See e.g. http://www.alternet.org/media/anti-islam-author-ayaan-hirsi-alis-latest-...
You are certainly a black woman and a former Muslim - all your other self-definitions are thrown into question by the people who fund you. Being black is not a formula for virtue as evinced by our black Supreme Court justice.
Unfortunately, your relationship to the truth is also not unblemished to say the least. See e.g. http://www.alternet.org/media/anti-islam-author-ayaan-hirsi-alis-latest-...
38
This title is wildly misleading, and this piece is rather frustrating to read. Ali appears to take a personal battle with SPLC and broaden the scope to claim the organization is "targeting liberals." This rhetoric is dangerous. It's also difficult to take seriously when "The Weekly Standard" is thrown around as a source. I think it's fine to look at the SPLC through a critical lense (as Politico and the Atlantic have previously done), but this opinion piece is poorly supported and poorly argued.
165
No, Elise. Liberals support women's and gays' rights, and freedom of speech, and oppose hatred and violence. SPLC is targeting someone *only* for taking a liberal stance on those issues--in Islam. Heaven forbid anyone ever breathe a word of criticism of Islam for its appalling treatment of women, for instance, right?
3
The ball is now in the SPLC's court.
4
Please tell it all - I read your piece and did some research on your points about the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) and your place on a watch list.
Please tell us why you compare Islam to Nazism?
Please tell us why as a legislator in the Netherlands you worked with Gert Wilders?
Please tell why you spoke at the ACT! conference in 2015 which was headlined by by an array of anti-Muslim speakers. A who's who list that is comparable to the speakers at the recent Charlottesville "conference" in their hatred for others. It even included a known racist journalist that preaches that blacks are inferior to whites and are incapable of civilization.
Tell us why Muslim leaders call you "the worst Islam Hater in the US"?
Tell us the whole truth why Brandeis cancelled you honorary degree.
You are entitled to your views but it seems like you don't think people of Muslim faith are.
Not all Muslims are evil as you have proposed, you cry out your rights have been violated but yet you wish to violate theirs?
There are bad Muslims just like there are bad Christians but you can't cry foul when you are pointed out as radical when you yourself are painting all Muslims as evil.
The SPLC does amazing work, I witnessed their work as a teenager in Mississippi and Alabama and how they fought to bring an end to the Klan. Please don't disparage their work in an attempt to cover for yourself. I know hate when I see it.
Please tell us why you compare Islam to Nazism?
Please tell us why as a legislator in the Netherlands you worked with Gert Wilders?
Please tell why you spoke at the ACT! conference in 2015 which was headlined by by an array of anti-Muslim speakers. A who's who list that is comparable to the speakers at the recent Charlottesville "conference" in their hatred for others. It even included a known racist journalist that preaches that blacks are inferior to whites and are incapable of civilization.
Tell us why Muslim leaders call you "the worst Islam Hater in the US"?
Tell us the whole truth why Brandeis cancelled you honorary degree.
You are entitled to your views but it seems like you don't think people of Muslim faith are.
Not all Muslims are evil as you have proposed, you cry out your rights have been violated but yet you wish to violate theirs?
There are bad Muslims just like there are bad Christians but you can't cry foul when you are pointed out as radical when you yourself are painting all Muslims as evil.
The SPLC does amazing work, I witnessed their work as a teenager in Mississippi and Alabama and how they fought to bring an end to the Klan. Please don't disparage their work in an attempt to cover for yourself. I know hate when I see it.
47
I have heard Ayaan Hirsi Ali speak and read her books. Criticism of Islamic extremism is NOT the same as attacking all Muslims as people. Stop creating a strawman argument you can knock down.
1
Ms. Hirsi indeed makes a good point. Terrorism is terrorism, no matter which "religion" is responsible and it should be called out for that regardless. Islam is indeed ripe for deep thought, examination and analysis, as Ms. Hirsi says. The S.P.L.C. appears truly to have lost its way....... for the good of all, we hope it finds the right path again.
9
I liked her first book and I admire some of what she has done and said. But to smear this organization which is the ONLY one doing this work is horrible. And with Sessions in the justice department you won't get help from there.
2
Ms. Ali, from what I have learned of your positions, I would not regard you as liberal, and your written denunciations of the Islamic religion as inherently violent paints a picture of the religion that is grossly distorted and intentionally hateful. Equating the actions of terrorists who espouse Islam to commit gross acts of violence with the religion itself, you conflate the two and use that manipulation to advance an argument that maligns a culture and a people beyond any recognition. The SPLC has it right.
16
HAs Mr. Ellerbeck every read any of Hirsi Ali's books? I think not. He is relying on secondary sources out to get her. Brian Ellerbeck claims to know her positions. He does not. It's easy to find out what she thinks - read her books or listen to her on many of the panels in which she has participated. She is invariably attacked by people with anger about her lack of belief in Islam and religion in general. She supports human rights. She is soft spoken but out spoken. She is also a beautiful, strong, kind, and polite woman. People who criticize her should not take secondary sources as the truth about her. Go to the source - google Amazon, click books, click Ayaan Hirsi Ai, and enjoy some fabulous books on how to raise strong, resourceful, beautiful women and men.
5
Islamic extremism is an expression of Islamic supremacy. The jihadists proudly quote specific verses from the Qur'an or hadiths to justify their barbarism. But when those quotes are examined, the challenger gets tarred with the brush of "extremist" Not the jihadist. This intimidation of scholarly discussion of the jihadists' expressed rationale for their action is antithetical to our Western liberal conception of civil society.
While it is not for non-Muslims to lecture them as to their religion, discussion can still be had among "unbelievers" as to what it all means. Intellectually insulting bromides such "Islam means 'peace'" when it means "submission" add neither clarity nor confidence to the discussion. While there is no Muslim equivalent of the Vatican, that the respected religious authorities for the Sunni (al Azhar in Cairo) and the Shi'a (in Qom) have found themselves incapable of mounting a theologically based critique of the jihadists' interpretations is more than disheartening. They need to convince the jihadists, not us, where they are wrong and do so in a theologically convincing manner. That they still haven't been able to mount such a defense of Islam after all this time suggests that they cannot. Perhaps that is why today, it is the person who raises these uncomfortable questions who is attacked and silenced. Groups like the SPLC owe a public explanation of how they conclude that people like Ms. Ali are extremists and what is false in their arguments.
While it is not for non-Muslims to lecture them as to their religion, discussion can still be had among "unbelievers" as to what it all means. Intellectually insulting bromides such "Islam means 'peace'" when it means "submission" add neither clarity nor confidence to the discussion. While there is no Muslim equivalent of the Vatican, that the respected religious authorities for the Sunni (al Azhar in Cairo) and the Shi'a (in Qom) have found themselves incapable of mounting a theologically based critique of the jihadists' interpretations is more than disheartening. They need to convince the jihadists, not us, where they are wrong and do so in a theologically convincing manner. That they still haven't been able to mount such a defense of Islam after all this time suggests that they cannot. Perhaps that is why today, it is the person who raises these uncomfortable questions who is attacked and silenced. Groups like the SPLC owe a public explanation of how they conclude that people like Ms. Ali are extremists and what is false in their arguments.
13
Hear, hear!
The writer's point was underscored when the SPLC's representative refused on Hardball to condemn Antifa violence.
SPLC previously went out of its way to attack groups seeking legislative reform of the broken domestic court system in the US, and falsely tarred non-custodial parents with its broad "extremist' brush in the process.
SPLC only exists for the benefit of SPLC's own employees.
The writer's point was underscored when the SPLC's representative refused on Hardball to condemn Antifa violence.
SPLC previously went out of its way to attack groups seeking legislative reform of the broken domestic court system in the US, and falsely tarred non-custodial parents with its broad "extremist' brush in the process.
SPLC only exists for the benefit of SPLC's own employees.
12
Bravo, bravo, bravo! For once, the New York Times is publishing an opinion piece that doesn't just repeat the same old pieties. I contributed to the SPLC for many years but finally told them to take me off their mailing list because they never even mentioned the horrors of Islamic terror attacks, much less developed a strategy to take down those organizations. The KKK and Neo-Nazis are loathsome and disgusting, but they are marginal and will never become a genuine threat to liberty and civil rights anywhere. Islamic terrorists are the real threat to the United States, Europe, and the Middle East. My deepest thanks and admiration to Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
20
She's right. The SPLC has absolutely no credible reason to include or target her or Maajid Nawaz. It's ludicrous. I heard Mr. Nawaz on Real Time with Bill Maher speak about this, and I was astounded. If we don't let people who are current or past muslims speak about their own experiences and criticize their own religions, we are no better than the extremists. Hate speech is the new word for heresy, and in some cases, it is being thrown around a bit too easily.
Shame on you, SPLC. These people have a right to express their opinions, which are well articulated and informed from their own life experiences, without criticism and intolerance from you, who should be doing a much more focused job on actual intolerance and poverty elsewhere. Shame.
Shame on you, SPLC. These people have a right to express their opinions, which are well articulated and informed from their own life experiences, without criticism and intolerance from you, who should be doing a much more focused job on actual intolerance and poverty elsewhere. Shame.
32
"Islamic extremism — a movement that aims to impose a caliphate and Sharia law by violent means — is as toxic as white supremacy." Did I miss the SPLC drive where they gave a resounding round of applause for ISIS and the Taliban? Of course Islamic extremism is wrong.
This writer, a former Dutch politician, has a personal beef with the SPLC, and it looks like she's willing to do some interesting mental gymnastics in order to write an article claiming the organization "targets liberals."
This writer, a former Dutch politician, has a personal beef with the SPLC, and it looks like she's willing to do some interesting mental gymnastics in order to write an article claiming the organization "targets liberals."
9
And, contrary to Ms. Ali's claim, the SPLC also includes a list of American Muslim extremists, Profiles of 10 leading domestic jihadists (https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2015/grown-h....
2
Ms Ali's outrage at extremism is genuine. Her blanket criticism of the Southern Poverty Law Center, born out of a single questionable entry in the SPLC's Field Guide, seems overdone. Did Ms Ali question the SPLC about their reasons for including her name in the Field Guide? What was their answer?
3
The SPLC explains the reasons she is listed. Click on the live link in her article to their Field Guide to Anti-Muslim Extremists. After reading it, you may still disagree that she should be included (just for the record, I don't), but at least you will know why she's on the list.
1
Go away Hirsi Ali. You are nothing more than someone who seeks to incite violence - you're no better than Trump. If you think SPLC is the problem, you have seriously lost your way. Do you not see that there are people who are Christian, Muslim and Jewish who do not adhere to treating women and men in the manner that is described in their religious texts? You make it so simple. Nazi/Christian extremism=bad; hasidic jews who beat women=bad; ISIS and extreme Islam=bad. People who practice their faiths without harming others or pushing women down=good. Ms. Hirsi Ali, I lived in NL when Theo van Gogh was killed. You have ridden this wave of fame for long enough. Go away.
8
Ms. Ali, I am a Muslim woman and I can say with certainty first and foremost that you do not speak for me or any other Muslim I've ever met and second, that you rightfully belong on SPLC's list. It's my understanding that you had a difficult childhood and for that I am sincerely sorry. But you must understand that there are millions of Muslims in America such as myself who were born to progressive parents, who encouraged us to love our neighbors our nation, our religion, and ourselves. For people like me, we see your rhetoric as hurtful, ethnophobic, and downright dangerous. I am grateful to the SPLC for recognizing the threat that is posed to the Muslim community by you; in fact, having read this piece I feel compelled to make (yet another) donation.
402
In the USA, where we have the most "progressive" and "moderate" muslims, the pew polls show 26% of Muslim males ages 19-30 believe suicide bombing is justifiable. The Pew polls show that Muslim beliefs around the world are overwhelmingly at odds with western values.
I see no efforts from supposedly moderate American Muslims to help reform theocratic islmist governments or even discuss the inherent anti-semitic biases embedded in Islamic culture. People will wisen up. No matter how much money you donate to SPLC the truth about Islam, Mohamed and the beliefs of Muslims around the world will be exposed.
I see no efforts from supposedly moderate American Muslims to help reform theocratic islmist governments or even discuss the inherent anti-semitic biases embedded in Islamic culture. People will wisen up. No matter how much money you donate to SPLC the truth about Islam, Mohamed and the beliefs of Muslims around the world will be exposed.
13
Ethnophobic? Muslims come in all colors and races and ethnic groups, do they not? You are free to disagree with Ms.Ali but to support the SPLC giving her a scarlet letter like some redneck KKK member, is tragic. After all one of the "green checkmark" commenters here whose comments are pre-approved regularly blames Christians but not neo-Cons for the rise of ISIS. Yet, as outrageous as those comments are to those of us who are in mainstream moderate/liberal churches, we're not boycotting the NYT.
7
Wait, what threat does she pose? This is the problem with "moderate" Muslims - any criticism of their ideas is perceived as an assault of some kind. What's worse, "liberals" feel compelled to take your word for it.
Reasonable observers watching this unfold are only left to wonder what is happening to liberalism...
Reasonable observers watching this unfold are only left to wonder what is happening to liberalism...
8
Ms. Ali is an extraordinarily brave woman who has risked her for daring to break with Islam as her personal faith, and to openly criticize its most oppressive features on behalf of the millions still either trapped in illiberal societies or in the thrall of fundamentalist versions of Islam.
She is a heroine to be celebrated, not an extremist to be condemned. Shame!
She is a heroine to be celebrated, not an extremist to be condemned. Shame!
18
"to openly criticize its most oppressive features"
She criticizes Islam itself, not just its most oppressive features. You need to look a bit deeper.
She criticizes Islam itself, not just its most oppressive features. You need to look a bit deeper.
The NYT comment bubble went up late on this article. I guess that's because anyone with a brain would say that Ayaan Hirsi Ali is 100% correct. I certainly do.
21
Ms. Ali, with all due respect, I think white liberals know what's best for you and everyone else.
10
Has Ayan Hirsi Ali ever considered writing a positive article on any topic? I am beginning to think she is a one trick pony.
3
Why judge from secondary sources when you can easily inform yourelf by going to the source - Ayaan Hirsi Ali herself! Read her bookis - they are cheap to buy, almost free second hand, fascinating and beautifully written. Or if you don't like to read, listen to her on many panels over the years on UTube or just google the panels. She is a beautiful, independent woman who managed to get educated enough to escape the bonds of Islamic faith in her native Somalia. She is a kind-hearted, hard-working strong woman who is incredibly brave. She wills stand up for what's right in every setting. Go to the source in this time of anger, crazy theorists, violence against women and minorities, and deep political divisions in the United States. Her story gives us hope that the major problems of the world are solvable with enough dedication, truth-telling, strength, mutual respect, and kindness. Check her out. Your phrase that she's a one trick pony could hardly be further from the truth. She has survived unbelievable humiliations ignorance, immigration, and a fatwa. She's been a political leader (in The Netherlands), a translator (for immigrants to Germany who could not speak English, critic of female genital mutilation (which was done to her at the age of 7 by an aunt while her father was in prison who would have protected her). This list goes on and on. She is a leader of vast experience, knowledge, and insights.
5
@San Francisco Voter - You forgot to add that she advocates "crushing" Islam and is a favorite of anti-Muslim right wingers in the U.S. Your claim that "Her story gives us hope that the major problems of the world are solvable with enough dedication, truth-telling, strength, mutual respect, and kindness" is, unfortunately, laughable in light of her constant claims that it is Islam itself, not just extremists, that is the problem.
2
Once again, when someone says "I don't understand how they could say I'm X", always go to the source. Ali is an extremist who essentially wants Islam gone, period, not just groups like ISIS. No amount of crocodile tears can take back her continuous rhetoric, no matter how much she tries to obfuscate it on this page.
3
The author didn't explicitly address why the SPLC added her to the Field Guide to Anti-Muslim Extremists. It would have made her case stronger had she dedicated some of her essay to why the SPLC deems her an extremist, and refuted those points.
5
In my view she should sue to SPLC for vilifying her. Is it extreme to oppose religions when they perpetrate all of the major wars today (I am including political religion like that of North Korea and theocratic USA in this definition).
Ataan Hirsi Ali's life is a story of overcoming false religious mandates to achieve peace and the rights of all women and men to follow whatever faith they believe in not to follow religions they do not believe in. Before you condemn her or judge the SPLC, you ought to read what she actually has written and listen to what she believes. Much of the anger against her is that visited on all successful women who speak up and challenge men!
Ataan Hirsi Ali's life is a story of overcoming false religious mandates to achieve peace and the rights of all women and men to follow whatever faith they believe in not to follow religions they do not believe in. Before you condemn her or judge the SPLC, you ought to read what she actually has written and listen to what she believes. Much of the anger against her is that visited on all successful women who speak up and challenge men!
8
I'm not much of a fan of Ayaan, but I think she's spot on. The SPLC, for whatever reason has bought into this idea that criticism of this ideology is tantamount to bigotry against it's adherents. Islam(ism) is just as toxic as the worst elements of Christianity, maybe even more so, and we see this reflected in the media, opinion polls and in our societies all over the west... The SPLC would probably be unlikely to pay any real attention to Anti-Christian sentiment on the left (rightly so) so why do does anti-Islamist sentiment on the left warrant this kind of treatment?
8
This is an interesting perspective and I understand Ms. Ali's concerns about her and Mr. Nawaz's reputations. However, SPLC has for decades been primarily dedicated to fighting domestic racist terror organizations, including the Klan, neo-Nazis, militias and other mainly right-wing groups through exposure, naming names, filing lawsuits, taking away assets after successful judgments and educating students and police officers. They have done terrific work...I have supported them with (very small) donations for over 20 years. This is actually the first time I have heard of them dealing at all with issues of opposition to Islam or Islamic extremism (two different things).
The characterization of appealing to liberals is partly accurate...they occupy some of the same ground as the ACLU -- attracting both liberals and traditional conservatives who value constitutional values and hate bigotry.
I would not attack Islam as a whole, and I agree with Ms. Ali that specific opposition to Islamist extremism should be encouraged...maybe it's a question of interpretation.
The characterization of appealing to liberals is partly accurate...they occupy some of the same ground as the ACLU -- attracting both liberals and traditional conservatives who value constitutional values and hate bigotry.
I would not attack Islam as a whole, and I agree with Ms. Ali that specific opposition to Islamist extremism should be encouraged...maybe it's a question of interpretation.
1
Ms. Ali advocates opposition to Islam generally. In a reason.com interview, she responds to the question, "Don’t you mean defeating radical Islam?" by saying, "No. Islam, period. Once it’s defeated, it can mutate into something peaceful. It’s very difficult to even talk about peace now. They’re not interested in peace."
It's worth noting that Pamela Geller thinks she's wonderful and cites her repeatedly at her web site. Ms. Ali supplies a lot of fodder for America's anti-Muslim bigots, and it's for that that the SPCL is calling her out.
It's worth noting that Pamela Geller thinks she's wonderful and cites her repeatedly at her web site. Ms. Ali supplies a lot of fodder for America's anti-Muslim bigots, and it's for that that the SPCL is calling her out.
1
Here is a pretty balanced picture of the author of this article which explains not only her position on Islam and Islamic radicalism, which she clearly views as inseparable and one (thus endearing her to the right-wing in this country - no accident she works for a right-wing think tank), and why she excites such opposition: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/03/ayaan-hirsi-ali-fighter-fo...
The SPLC does valuable and necessary work. Whatever their views on the author and whether we agree or not, it is an organization well worth supporting.
The SPLC does valuable and necessary work. Whatever their views on the author and whether we agree or not, it is an organization well worth supporting.
20
Thank you very much for the link to the Guardian story. It is important for readers to have access to information that will help us understand the context and background that gave rise to the SPLC's designation of Ms. Hirsan Ali as an anti-Muslim extremist, and thus to her rejoinder against the SPLC here.
One hopes the NYT will give the SPLC the opportunity to respond in these pages.
One hopes the NYT will give the SPLC the opportunity to respond in these pages.
3
I have seen Ms. Ali interviewed on Bill Maher and talk about her life experiences. I have the greatest respect for her, and her willingness to not only challenge Islamic extremism, but to recognize its foundations within the tenets of the religion itself. This, I think, is what galls the SPLC, which I suspect is inclined to defend the religion because of Christian sympathies.
4
"but to recognize its foundations within the tenets of the religion itself. "
You fail to see that that is exactly the problem. Ms. Ali condemns all Islam and wants to crush it. She cloaks her sentiments in some very valid (and some questionable) claims about things that have happened, but her condemnation is quite broad. And, as the SPLC points out in their Executive Summary, people like Ms. Ali appear in the mainstream media (as well as more partisan media) with little pushback on what they say.
You fail to see that that is exactly the problem. Ms. Ali condemns all Islam and wants to crush it. She cloaks her sentiments in some very valid (and some questionable) claims about things that have happened, but her condemnation is quite broad. And, as the SPLC points out in their Executive Summary, people like Ms. Ali appear in the mainstream media (as well as more partisan media) with little pushback on what they say.
1
Wait till someone at the NYT reads the SPLC's form 990. There's the real news story.
Perhaps its your habit of not making a distinction between violent Islamic extremists, and the nonviolent people who practice Islam ?
12
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is exactly right: the SPLC's description of her and of Mr. Nawaz as 'extremists' is disgraceful.
5
I side with the SPLC against the author of this article. Ms. Hirsi Ali's toxic rhetoric has repeatedly gone beyond denunciations of Islamic extremism to whip up anger, contempt, and misunderstanding against all Muslims. She is a propagandist for a "clash of civilizations" view of geopolitics that plays into Jihadists' own toxic narratives and discourages compassion and understanding between people.
6
Based on what I know of her writings and speaking, Ayaan Hirsi Ali does not belong on the list. If she did, then the Harvard psychologist Steven Pinker should be on an "extreme antireligion" list for his very detailed and well-reasoned argument that the overall decline in violence in the modern world is related to the decline in religious belief. I an not so famous, but you could put me on that list also. Also Richard Dawkins. The SPLC opposition should be focused on people who actually foment hate, not those who are religious skeptics, outspoken nonbelievers, or reformers.
10
The folks at SPLC label anyone whose views are not aligned with their own as "extreme."
That is frightening.
Kudos for Ms. Hirsi for speaking out.
That is frightening.
Kudos for Ms. Hirsi for speaking out.
8
Please do a bit of research first before taking her word for it.
5
There's something odd about this piece. The writer might be correct and she might very well have been falsely or unfairly labeled.
But all we are given is generalities and conclusions. What exactly did you say that SPLC called "extreme?" We're never told.
We are told that "I am viciously attacked and threatened by those who are dedicated to Islamic extremism". But then in the next sentence you imply that "liberals" and Brandeis University are in league with these apologists for extremism. Maybe they are, but why not offer evidence rather than simple conclusions?
This entire piece conflates so many different ideas and is so sparse with its facts that one can't but conclude that there is much more to this story than the victimization of a pioneering anti-extremist. That is more a problem with the NYTimes editors than it is with the author.
But all we are given is generalities and conclusions. What exactly did you say that SPLC called "extreme?" We're never told.
We are told that "I am viciously attacked and threatened by those who are dedicated to Islamic extremism". But then in the next sentence you imply that "liberals" and Brandeis University are in league with these apologists for extremism. Maybe they are, but why not offer evidence rather than simple conclusions?
This entire piece conflates so many different ideas and is so sparse with its facts that one can't but conclude that there is much more to this story than the victimization of a pioneering anti-extremist. That is more a problem with the NYTimes editors than it is with the author.
5
Unfortunately, most newspaper columns are allotted only so much space. That, of course, means that one-sided arguments can be posted quite easily. Actually, though, one of the wonders of the internet is you can follow up on what is being said. In Ms. Ali's case, the NYT has nicely made her reference to the list on which she has been included, the Field Guide to Anti-Muslim Extremists, a live link. You can simply click on it and read for yourself the reasons the SPLC included her; they, too, supply live links to some of the articles and interviews that they cite as reasons for putting her on the list.
You may, in the end, disagree with their reasoning, but you can definitely find out more before you make up your mind. Ms. Ali is pretty sure you won't bother. I certainly wish more people had done so before posting their comments to this column.
You may, in the end, disagree with their reasoning, but you can definitely find out more before you make up your mind. Ms. Ali is pretty sure you won't bother. I certainly wish more people had done so before posting their comments to this column.
1
After contacting SPLC, I found out that you are being called a liar and more. That you are denigrating all followers of Islam, not just Islamic extremism. That becomes a problem for me. While I support other issues, the attacks on all of Islam, which is at its core a peaceful religion, are unacceptable to me and any other person that believes in the right to practice the religion of your choice. It is important to be critical of any religious group, but also important to base any critique on facts.
5
How do you know that Islam is "at its core a peaceful religion"? Religions are a matter or interpretation. There is no "core." There is only practice. Islam as currently practiced in almost all cases oppresses women and lgbtq people by considering people born non-male and non-heterosexual to be lesser than straight males.
2
She conveniently fails to specify exactly why they consider her to be an "anti-Muslim extremist." Whether right or wrong, this is a deceptive and completely self-serving column.
6
I find it tremendously depressing that an organization as respected as the SPLC is undermining the credibility of its valuable work tracking domestic hate groups by lobbing baseless smears against libertarians (Charles Murray), progressive Muslims (Maajid Nawaz) and others. The SPLC was such a valuable voice in the post-Civil Rights era, but as Ms. Ali says, it is an organization that has lost its way.
291
Ali is not a progressive - she's a darling of the right, AEI and Cato among them, not a promoter of feminism but of equating ALL Islam with violence and extremism. I don't know about Nawaz but Murray has given cover to white supremacists with otherwise pointless narratives.
So a comment that calls out, positively, absolutely paradigmatically racist Bell Curve writing Charles Murray gets a recommend? and 61 upvotes? that's indeed "tremendously depressing."
if that's what libertarianism is, i'm glad you've helped me ground my contempt.
if that's what libertarianism is, i'm glad you've helped me ground my contempt.
3
SPLC always does that. You are branded HATE group if you don't 100% agree with them.
1
Thank you for taking a brave stance--not just in this piece, but throughout most of your adult life. I'm upset, like you, about how the Southern Poverty Law Center treats those who confront extremism in the Muslim world--yet know they do vital work by taking on the Klan, Neo-Nazis, and other extremist, hate groups. Sadly they, like most liberals today, seem to have a double standard when it comes to pointing out that Muslim extremists are just as hateful as their "Aryan" counterparts. Just look at the way they portray the only democracy in the Middle East: Israel.
10
I was following you argument with head nods,until you took a slam at the Council of American Islamic Relations . They most certainly are NOT apologists for Islamic extremists and terrorists. By your definition does this also mean that B’nai B’rith is somehow a facilitator of Israeli extremists and their terrorism?
No. I think you went overboard when you claimed "Islamic organizations like the Council of American Islamic Relations pounce on any criticism of Islam, branding it “hate speech,” the modern word for heresy."
Your op-ed seems to be based on your personal grievances. Sue the SLPC ifyou have been defamed, instead of defaming other groups with different agendas than yours.
No. I think you went overboard when you claimed "Islamic organizations like the Council of American Islamic Relations pounce on any criticism of Islam, branding it “hate speech,” the modern word for heresy."
Your op-ed seems to be based on your personal grievances. Sue the SLPC ifyou have been defamed, instead of defaming other groups with different agendas than yours.
216
But CAIR does brand any criticism of Islam as Islamophobia and hate speech. Look them up.
10
Can you please supply some specific examples of CAIR "branding" any criticism of Islam as Islamophobia? I'm familiar with CAIR and I've never seen any such branding. Instead, I've seen statements such as:
"'American Muslims do not hesitate to condemn hate crimes and terrorist attacks, no matter the race or religion of the perpetrators,' said Dr. Houda Abadi, who has traveled across Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa to conduct research studies about extremist propaganda, and leads workshops for religious leaders working to prevent violent extremism in their local communities. 'We also take proactive steps to prevent and counter extremism by exposing and debunking their arguments, tactics, and goals.'"
"'American Muslims do not hesitate to condemn hate crimes and terrorist attacks, no matter the race or religion of the perpetrators,' said Dr. Houda Abadi, who has traveled across Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa to conduct research studies about extremist propaganda, and leads workshops for religious leaders working to prevent violent extremism in their local communities. 'We also take proactive steps to prevent and counter extremism by exposing and debunking their arguments, tactics, and goals.'"
2
CAIR, the Hamas and Muslim Brotherhood affiliated group?
Aye, totally not apologists or dangerous in any way
Aye, totally not apologists or dangerous in any way
1
Thank you for speaking out.
5
I'm confused. Ayaan Hirsi Ali writes that the S.P.L.C. Field Guide to Anti-Muslim Extremists list doesn't exist, and says "you would look in vain" for it, yet there's a link to that list in her article.
3
No, she says that no list of Muslim extremists exists and is calling out the SPLC for having a list of anti-Muslim extremists instead. It is the latter list that she links to in her article.
However, the Executive Summary to the anti-Muslim extremists list states the reason the list exists is because "a shocking number of these extremists are seen regularly on television news programs and quoted in the pages of our leading newspapers." I wasn't familiar with all 15 people listed, but I would agree that quite a few of them are highly visible. Others are cited as appearing on Fox or having been at the Value Voters Summit.
Muslim extremists are far less visible on television or in print media. In fact, I can't recall ever hearing any Muslim extremists speak on television or read anything they've written except in news reports condemning them. In any case, they do exist, and Ms. Ali is wrong when she says there is no list of them at the SPLC. "Profiles of 10 leading domestic jihadists" can be found at https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2015/grown-home. This is typical right-wing distortion: make a claim that you are quite likely to know is false in the comfortable belief that most people will not check out the accuracy of what you're saying.
However, the Executive Summary to the anti-Muslim extremists list states the reason the list exists is because "a shocking number of these extremists are seen regularly on television news programs and quoted in the pages of our leading newspapers." I wasn't familiar with all 15 people listed, but I would agree that quite a few of them are highly visible. Others are cited as appearing on Fox or having been at the Value Voters Summit.
Muslim extremists are far less visible on television or in print media. In fact, I can't recall ever hearing any Muslim extremists speak on television or read anything they've written except in news reports condemning them. In any case, they do exist, and Ms. Ali is wrong when she says there is no list of them at the SPLC. "Profiles of 10 leading domestic jihadists" can be found at https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2015/grown-home. This is typical right-wing distortion: make a claim that you are quite likely to know is false in the comfortable belief that most people will not check out the accuracy of what you're saying.
Well said Aayan!
5
One way the nytimes and other publications can support Ayaan, Masjid and other brave voices would be to publish the Charlie Hedbo cartoons of the prophet who shall not be named...
6
I agree with Ms. Ali. It is funny how liberal organizations with turn a blind eye to oppressive attitudes and crimes when committed by groups they feel Conservative America is opposed to. I.e. Muslim extremists.
11
The problem is that Ms. Ali in an interview with reason.com characterizes Islam as a political movement, not a religion, and advocates that it be crushed. Then she contradicts herself and says it's a religion that requires submission to the will of God:
"There is no moderate Islam. There are Muslims who are passive, who don’t all follow the rules of Islam, but there’s really only one Islam, defined as submission to the will of God. There’s nothing moderate about it."
She believes that one way to crush (her word) Islam is to close their schools, even if it means amending the Constitution to do so. She says, for example:
"Asking whether radical preachers ought to be allowed to operate is not hostile to the idea of civil liberties; it’s an attempt to save civil liberties. .... So Muslim schools in the West, some of which are institutions of fascism that teach innocent kids that Jews are pigs and monkeys—I would say in order to preserve civil liberties, don’t allow such schools."
"Don't allow such schools." Where does that stop? Don't allow the troubling Yeshivas in New York state? Close Christian fundamentalist schools (yes, they exist)?
To me, what makes her troubling is that her writings are being used by the right to stoke anti-Muslim sentiment in this country. Pamela Geller features Ms. Ali numerous times at her site and says: "She has been busy formulating the strategy of greater effectiveness in the battle against Islam’s dictatorship over the social body politic."
"There is no moderate Islam. There are Muslims who are passive, who don’t all follow the rules of Islam, but there’s really only one Islam, defined as submission to the will of God. There’s nothing moderate about it."
She believes that one way to crush (her word) Islam is to close their schools, even if it means amending the Constitution to do so. She says, for example:
"Asking whether radical preachers ought to be allowed to operate is not hostile to the idea of civil liberties; it’s an attempt to save civil liberties. .... So Muslim schools in the West, some of which are institutions of fascism that teach innocent kids that Jews are pigs and monkeys—I would say in order to preserve civil liberties, don’t allow such schools."
"Don't allow such schools." Where does that stop? Don't allow the troubling Yeshivas in New York state? Close Christian fundamentalist schools (yes, they exist)?
To me, what makes her troubling is that her writings are being used by the right to stoke anti-Muslim sentiment in this country. Pamela Geller features Ms. Ali numerous times at her site and says: "She has been busy formulating the strategy of greater effectiveness in the battle against Islam’s dictatorship over the social body politic."
1
Freethinkers have always had conflicts with orthodoxy of all kinds and it is good to see Ayaan Hirsi Ali speaking out against SPLC's attacks. Americans think so much of their freedom of religion that anyone who speaks highly of freedom from religion becomes a pariah. Defenders of various religions are promoting the ignorance on which religion is based.
241
She's being called out because she equates ALL Islam with violence and extremism, rhetoric that is dangerous to the peaceful non-extremist muslims living here and elsewhere.
1
What do you think is the best way for peaceful non-extremist Muslims or Christians to distinguish themselves from their extreme co-believers given that often enough "normal" religious beliefs seem at odds with reality?
1
Well, went to the website. Read the field guide. Doesn't seem baseless at all. They quote multiple writings by Hirsi. Label seems quite appropriate.
5
I recently saw Mr. Nawaz on the Bill Maher show, and I thought his opinions were cogent and reasonable; especially his assertions in regard to the threats that extremists pose to their own people. I don't know about the other statements or evidence provided in SPLC's "Manual." I would hope that neither Mr. Nawaz or Ms. Ali are perpetuating the idea that being a devout Muslim is equivalent to being a jihadist/terrorist, or otherwise supporting policies that seek to disparage or strip away their peaceful religious activities. I also hope that the SPLC is focusing most closely on those who are truly posing the greatest threats to the safety of Muslims and any other group of people.
2
Thanks for sharing this, Ayaan, and calling out the confusion and/or hypocrisy on the left. I hope it opens some eyes and changes some minds.
4
What about hypocrisy on the right? Is that okay?
1
How about sending those dollars to the group, Freedom from Religion, which certainly casts a wider net.
Ann
Ann
4
Ms. Ali fails to properly contextualize SPLC either geographically or historically, and engages in the false logic that anyone who opposes her is aligned "unwittingly or not" with those she opposes. In condemning anti-Islamic rhetoric, SPLC is not supporting ISIS or Islamic radicalism in any fashion. Indeed, it is probable that Ms. Ali is more aligned with Islamic radicals than SPLC is, given her positing that the West and Islam are fundamentally opposed, when really it is only fundamentalist Islam that is incompatible with the West (just as other fundamentalist thinking, such as that undergirding neo-Nazism and white supremacy is incompatible with the West). Truthfully, the threat posed by Islamic terrorism to the southern US minorities who are SPLC's focus is pretty minimal and attenuated ("Bowling Green Massacre" aside). That SPLC chooses a different focus than Ms. Ali does not make them irrelevant in today's world, and certainly does not make them malevolent. Perhaps she's just frustrated that Charlottesville and other domestic events have drawn some of the media attention from her own bugaboo?
2
In the author’s own words (excerpts from testimony before U.S. Senate Committee on Homeland Security & Governmental Affairs; http://www.hsgac.senate.gov/download/testimony-hirsi-ali-2017-06-14 ):
“In the United States, it is refreshing and heartening that President Trump acknowledges the need for an ideological campaign against “radical Islam.”4 This deserves to be called a paradigm shift.”
“Insisting that radical Islamists have “nothing to do with Islam” has led US policy makers to commit numerous strategic errors since 9/11.”
“President Trump has already identified a different course of action. In August of 2016 he pledged that his administration would “speak out against the oppression of women, gays, and people of different faith” in the name of Islam. While the Obama administration has shunned proponents of Islamic reform, Trump vowed to “be a friend to all moderate Muslim reformers in the Middle East, and [to] amplify their voices. This includes speaking out against the horrible practice of honor killings,” as well as establishing as “one of my first acts as president . . . a Commission on Radical Islam which will include reformist voices in the Muslim community.”85 He also declared that “we should only admit into this country those who share our values and respect our people”—screening would-be immigrants for links not just to terrorism but also to political Islam as an ideology. It is now time to turn these words into action.”
“In the United States, it is refreshing and heartening that President Trump acknowledges the need for an ideological campaign against “radical Islam.”4 This deserves to be called a paradigm shift.”
“Insisting that radical Islamists have “nothing to do with Islam” has led US policy makers to commit numerous strategic errors since 9/11.”
“President Trump has already identified a different course of action. In August of 2016 he pledged that his administration would “speak out against the oppression of women, gays, and people of different faith” in the name of Islam. While the Obama administration has shunned proponents of Islamic reform, Trump vowed to “be a friend to all moderate Muslim reformers in the Middle East, and [to] amplify their voices. This includes speaking out against the horrible practice of honor killings,” as well as establishing as “one of my first acts as president . . . a Commission on Radical Islam which will include reformist voices in the Muslim community.”85 He also declared that “we should only admit into this country those who share our values and respect our people”—screening would-be immigrants for links not just to terrorism but also to political Islam as an ideology. It is now time to turn these words into action.”
1
But, then, for some strange reason Trump just loves Saudi Arabian leaders. I guess they, unlike the leaders in other majority Muslim countries, don't oppress women in their country. Right?
And how, one wonders, does the following statement from Trump square with his condemnation of Islam:
"'We are not here to lecture,' Mr. Trump said in a speech (in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia) on Sunday. 'We are not here to tell other people how to live, what to do, who to be or how to worship. Instead, we are here to offer partnership — based on shared interests and values — to pursue a better future for us all.'"
Just what "shared interests and values" is Trump talking about? One does wonder.
And how, one wonders, does the following statement from Trump square with his condemnation of Islam:
"'We are not here to lecture,' Mr. Trump said in a speech (in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia) on Sunday. 'We are not here to tell other people how to live, what to do, who to be or how to worship. Instead, we are here to offer partnership — based on shared interests and values — to pursue a better future for us all.'"
Just what "shared interests and values" is Trump talking about? One does wonder.
1
It is not only the Southern Poverty Law Center that judged Ms. Hirsi to be on the fringe of anti-Muslim bigotry. Brandeis University rescinded an honorary degree it was about to award her because of opposition from its faculty and students.
She is not "Like every other decent American", but a shill for extremists who hate the religion of Islam, one of the three great world religions.
She is not "Like every other decent American", but a shill for extremists who hate the religion of Islam, one of the three great world religions.
5
I agree with you Mr. Nawaz.
I have been in the position you have written about Mr.Nawaz. It is very frustrating. I speak up against bigotry of every kind whenever possible. Yet, when I criticize the religion of Islam as being bigoted. I am attacked, or hushed. Just don't criticize Islam or Muslims or Allah.
Why should I not criticize things I think are in error?
At the same time I criticize other religions without experiencing similar personal attacks. There is a double standard when it comes to criticizing anything associated with Islam. That is the real bigotry. And we all suffer because of it.
I have been in the position you have written about Mr.Nawaz. It is very frustrating. I speak up against bigotry of every kind whenever possible. Yet, when I criticize the religion of Islam as being bigoted. I am attacked, or hushed. Just don't criticize Islam or Muslims or Allah.
Why should I not criticize things I think are in error?
At the same time I criticize other religions without experiencing similar personal attacks. There is a double standard when it comes to criticizing anything associated with Islam. That is the real bigotry. And we all suffer because of it.
4
No, Ayaan, American liberals and many others oppose your attempt to conflate Islamic extremism with everyday Islam as practiced peacefully by millions worldwide. Even George W. Bush--hardly a flaming liberal--was careful to make this distinction between Islamic extremism and the religion as practiced by the vast majority of Muslims: a distinction that you so carefully work to disavow and blur, through your career and your publications. And it does bespeak, I believe, your passionate personal prejudice against Muslims, as the SPLC rightly points out.
9
The concept of the "extremist jihadist terrorist" is basically the creation of US/UK intelligence. Working with Saudi Wahhabist they've trained and armed such groups all over the world up to this day. The ideology was spread with by setting up madrassas religious schools with book printed by US publishers and spread in illiterate rural regions of muslim countries. There isn't a country in the muslim world that has not been hurt badly by this policy, and quite a few of them have been destroyed by it, often with the help of US/UK logistical support, intelligence and air support.
Will we ever get the full story of this monstrous decades long activity? Who knows.. large parts of the story is out there, but along as the corporate media can pretend that it's not I don't see it becoming part of mainstream consciousness just yet.
But if it did, and the american citizens was suddenly forced to confront their illusions about who and what they've been as a country and people, would we see American Exceptionalism be regarded just as toxic as Nazism? Or would the cognitive dissonance be so severe that the majority of would fight hard to maintain the illusions intact?
Will we ever get the full story of this monstrous decades long activity? Who knows.. large parts of the story is out there, but along as the corporate media can pretend that it's not I don't see it becoming part of mainstream consciousness just yet.
But if it did, and the american citizens was suddenly forced to confront their illusions about who and what they've been as a country and people, would we see American Exceptionalism be regarded just as toxic as Nazism? Or would the cognitive dissonance be so severe that the majority of would fight hard to maintain the illusions intact?
2
We can disagree on the surest way to bring other cultures to the light that we see in the developed West, largely because not everyone wants to be pressed into the same mold.
It is unfair to sully a religion because most of its proponents also believe women and gays hold lesser status than men. There are enlightened Muslims who don't agree.
I can't see a resolution of the problem, but it's important to keep talking.
It is unfair to sully a religion because most of its proponents also believe women and gays hold lesser status than men. There are enlightened Muslims who don't agree.
I can't see a resolution of the problem, but it's important to keep talking.
6
I think it is as fair to "sully" a religion that believes women and lgbtq folk are "lesser" as it is to sully a cause like the South's in the Civil War. Just because people call something a "religion" doesn't mean it deserves respect or cover when it operates to enslave, limit or demean any group of human beings.
11
It's a bit difficult to keep talking when you are dead. Ask any of those who have been killed by extremists (on any side).
2
Excellent piece and important read for new liberals.
71
Out of curiosity, I went to the Southern Poverty Law Center to read the profile they have developed for Ms. Hirsi. It includes many of her quotes in which she pretty clearly defines her view of Islam as extreme and in need of defeat. I think of my several Muslim friends, their love of life and their God, their desire for friendship, hospitality and graciousness to the world around them. I don't know if Ms. Hirsi is truculent enough towards Islam to be considered an extremist, but I am certainly not going to write off the Southern Poverty Law Center over this, considering all the really important and good work they do.
522
I respect and admire the Southern Poverty Law Center. They have been fighting for truth and justice and have stood up to KKK and racists for as long as I can remember. We all need to support them and other organizations that speak to racial justice and equality. We can use all the help we can get to fight this administration , their constant lies, and threats to our democracy every day.
6
OK, SPLC publishes lists and has a big bank account. What else do they do?
3
In Ms. Hirsi's book Infidel she recounts her sufferings and those of other women by men who interpret scripture in extreme ways, resulting in such things as genital mutilation and honor killing. She cites passages in Muslim scripture that are used to justify extremism and she does say that Islam in not a peaceful religion. These have a parallel with biblical texts that have been used by Christians to justify slavery and misogyny, and those who demonstrate that Christianity is subject to misinterpretation.
She is clearly no longer a believer, but as a legislator and on the world stage she has opposed extremism, not the peaceful celebration of any faith.
Ms. Hirsi found freedom and equality in Denmark and has been a fighter for these things, for which the SPLC also stands.
I have been alarmed by the attacks by the Republican-dominated legislature of my state, North Carolina, on the SPLC. Seems to me the SPLC should distinguish better between its friends and its enemies.
She is clearly no longer a believer, but as a legislator and on the world stage she has opposed extremism, not the peaceful celebration of any faith.
Ms. Hirsi found freedom and equality in Denmark and has been a fighter for these things, for which the SPLC also stands.
I have been alarmed by the attacks by the Republican-dominated legislature of my state, North Carolina, on the SPLC. Seems to me the SPLC should distinguish better between its friends and its enemies.
5
There is another more basic reason to donate somewhere other than Southern Poverty Law Center: their $328,395,092 reserve. That's right. You can check their tax return out online. Last year they raised $58 million and only spent $45 million. For many years they have raised vastly more money than they can use effectively, which is why they have $328 million in assets and growing. The name Southern Poverty Law Center conjures up "Atticus Finch", and hardworking scrappy lawyers in dingy offices. But, that is not the case. Your donations could end up as part of their growing bank account not fighting hate. My recommendation for support: Equal Justice Initiative founded by Bryan Stevenson, the 'real deal'.
193
I also discovered the large endowment and wondered how this could be and I decided not to donate. Surely they are not struggling. The org. needs to answer the questions as well as what kind of salaries and overhead is it incurring?
23
That is a very good suggestion and here is a link to EJI: https://www.eji.org/
I have read JUST MERCY by Bryan Stevenson and recommend it to anyone interested in the administration of justice.
Link to book: https://www.eji.org/just-mercy
I have read JUST MERCY by Bryan Stevenson and recommend it to anyone interested in the administration of justice.
Link to book: https://www.eji.org/just-mercy
1
My planned donation to the SPLC is canceled. Where to donate?
NAACP legal defense?
BLM?
Rev. Barber and Repairers of the Breach?
Suggestions (and reasons)... Please and Thank you.
NAACP legal defense?
BLM?
Rev. Barber and Repairers of the Breach?
Suggestions (and reasons)... Please and Thank you.
3
Bravo for speaking the Truth.
113
Tell it Ms. Ali! Thank you. In my opinion, all women in Muslim-majority societies should be candidates for refugee status in the non-Muslim world because they are systematically discriminated against based upon their sex and gender.
When will we as a society take discrimination based on sex and gender as seriously as we take that based upon race and religion?
I have been to the Middle East and anyone who wants to argue this point with me needs to ask him/her/themself whether they would want to be a girl born into one of those societies. If the answer is no, there's your answer.
When will we as a society take discrimination based on sex and gender as seriously as we take that based upon race and religion?
I have been to the Middle East and anyone who wants to argue this point with me needs to ask him/her/themself whether they would want to be a girl born into one of those societies. If the answer is no, there's your answer.
207
I'd be interested in learning what Ayan is doing to bring these oppressed women from Muslim majority countries to the US.
And yet rather than encourage Muslim women to come to America to live, the present administration (and by extension the right-wing who support both the author and the Trump administration) seek to keep all Muslims out. Go figure.
7
Where do Ms. Ali's paymasters at the right wing Hoover Institution stand on women's rights? True religious freedom (the freedom to NOT be a Christian if one chooses)? The income inequality and upward redistribution of wealth that's tearing this country apart?
Do you realize the U.S. never passed the ERA? Ms. Ali is working for one of the reasons.
Do you realize the U.S. never passed the ERA? Ms. Ali is working for one of the reasons.
4