I am a victim of rape. I applaud the decision to apply a solid standard of justice to people who are accused of any crime. There are false accusations. see http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/07/06/british-woman-faces-jail-time-fo.... d
The concept of innocent until proven guilty has solid merit.
The concept of innocent until proven guilty has solid merit.
22
If we believe the parents of students pay cash for a student to attend college, is the "cost" of rape culture on campus the same? Women have the secret of life. We have only to look at warring countries to see rape culture as an instrument of conquest. But not on American college campuses? Pregnancy is never mentioned as a "cost" of campus life in this debate, why is that?
2
In the case of forcible rape, i have no issues with a very tough stance, although I do believe that it should be handled by the police and the court system rather than by the universities. Nor do I object to an equally tough stance in cases where one party drugs the other in order th lessen their resistance.
However, in the case of being incapable of giving consent due to drunkenness, I have to say that if we believe in equality under the law, then if both parties are drunk neither is capable of consent. Therefore, either both are guilty of rape or neither, and cases of this sort should be handled under that principle.
A root cause of the problem with universities investigating these cases themselves is that too often the same personnel are responsible for counseling the victim and prosecuting the offender. As a counselor, one has to accept whatever the victim says as true and work from there. As a prosecutor, however, one has to acknowledge that the accuser may have just as many reasons to lie as the accused, and investigate in a search for the truth. This, along with the greater experience and respect for the rights of both parties, is why I believe that the universities should be required to refer cases alleging criminal behavior to the police and courts.
However, in the case of being incapable of giving consent due to drunkenness, I have to say that if we believe in equality under the law, then if both parties are drunk neither is capable of consent. Therefore, either both are guilty of rape or neither, and cases of this sort should be handled under that principle.
A root cause of the problem with universities investigating these cases themselves is that too often the same personnel are responsible for counseling the victim and prosecuting the offender. As a counselor, one has to accept whatever the victim says as true and work from there. As a prosecutor, however, one has to acknowledge that the accuser may have just as many reasons to lie as the accused, and investigate in a search for the truth. This, along with the greater experience and respect for the rights of both parties, is why I believe that the universities should be required to refer cases alleging criminal behavior to the police and courts.
23
Pardon my urbane erudition but here we have yet another case of a mindless twit assigned to oversee the demise of an important function of government, and doing so with extreme prejudice.
Candice Jackson, seeking to remedy the inherent bias aganist men (she implies its all about men) states that 90%, give or take, of sexual assault allegations on campus boil down to "We were both drunk..." and hurt feelings.
And she's determined to level the playing field for perpetrators; let them get on with their lives.
She fails to see that the process she seeks to destroy is, itself, a major perk for the accused. Or maybe she doesn't believe the obvious: that any poor rapist would prefer to take the chance of being expelled (worst case, I know) and picking up the pieces on some other unsuspecting campus, than to fight this battle where it ought to be fought.
Instead of making procedural pinatas out of vexingly liberal academic institutions, why not just pass this particular buck?
Do all your counseling, all your supporting, all your accusing and cajoling within the warm confines of academia, if you like. But when it comes to judgement and punishment, send all these people where they belong: to a real court with a real judge, backed by a real jail.
Sounds fair to me.
Candice Jackson, seeking to remedy the inherent bias aganist men (she implies its all about men) states that 90%, give or take, of sexual assault allegations on campus boil down to "We were both drunk..." and hurt feelings.
And she's determined to level the playing field for perpetrators; let them get on with their lives.
She fails to see that the process she seeks to destroy is, itself, a major perk for the accused. Or maybe she doesn't believe the obvious: that any poor rapist would prefer to take the chance of being expelled (worst case, I know) and picking up the pieces on some other unsuspecting campus, than to fight this battle where it ought to be fought.
Instead of making procedural pinatas out of vexingly liberal academic institutions, why not just pass this particular buck?
Do all your counseling, all your supporting, all your accusing and cajoling within the warm confines of academia, if you like. But when it comes to judgement and punishment, send all these people where they belong: to a real court with a real judge, backed by a real jail.
Sounds fair to me.
15
No, I can't pardon your "urbane erudition". If "leveling the playing field" is synonymous in your world with providing adequate due process, you cannot be pardoned.
So we ultimately agree, let the criminal justice system deal with criminal accusations.
So we ultimately agree, let the criminal justice system deal with criminal accusations.
23
There are many universities that cannot or will not help in a sexual assault case. Most of the time it is because the rape occurred days ago and the evidence has been removed. Universities have a relationship with the Police on Campus, too close a relationship. This move by DeVos clearly shows how she does not understand the system, Title IX and the law. There are more women every day being sexually assaulted than the numbers counted. There are victims of false accusations every day in court. The universities are in the business of educating students, there should be an orientation that includes Title IX and the law regarding sexual assaults. We need more awareness of why women are raped and how to prevent these episodes. But there is no amount of education that will stop a rapist, a criminal, not a student. There is also one more problem, the idea that getting drunk is an excuse for one's behavior. There are consequences to one's actions and we read about them every day. Educating the students is not enough, educating the population is a start.
10
You don't seem to understand that alcohol is the major problem here - evidenced by the fact that the vast majority of these cases involves it. If alcohol is involved in any way, the accused is immediately determined to be at fault. A girl who drinks too much is completely exonerated from any responsibility and the male is held fully responsible. Perhaps a solution is for the public to begin to hold both parties equally responsible if they voluntarily drink too much alcohol? If a woman gets drunk and gets behind the wheel of a car and kills someone, we don't give her a free pass because she didn't know what she was doing....
23
I am a Democrat and a staunch feminist woman. However, in recent years I have looked with dismay on the unconstitutional treatment of young men on college campuses and the flagrant violation of their right to be considered innocent until proven guilty - in the police and court system, not the cowed, slanted, college administration system. Popular culture now deems any and all contact between the sexes as "rape" on a female's say-so and the mere accusation by a young woman is enough to bring demands for expulsion, prison and lifelong branding. In short, "Irritate me and I can and I will permanently ruin your life." Doesn't anyone see how this cheapens acts of genuine rape? When everything is rape, nothing will be rape. And while I don't believe in the "she got what she deserved by being drunk/dressing slutty/etc." school of thought, I do still cling to antiquated concepts of personal responsibility: it might not justify rape by getting falling down drunk and inviting a stranger to your room, but it certainly makes it more likely!
55
"Advocates for victims and women"? Aren't we all, as human beings and law-abiding citizens, advocates for rape victims? Is there another morally justifiable position to take? The NYT suggestion that only fringe women's groups and "advocates" view rape as problematic is a reprehensible and dangerous position to take.
At every turn, this essay implies there are two legitimate sides to a difficult issue, and that higher education as been "roiled by high-profile cases of sexual assault accusations."
Nonsense.
Higher education has been roiled by sexual assault—and in the last decade, we have finally started to have conversations about it. Making accusations of rape—as we all know—destroys the social resume of the accuser, which is why the majority of assault victims remain silent. Brock Turner is out and free. Bill Cosby is unlikely to see the inside of a prison cell. Megan Rondini is dead.
SAVE is a masthead-less organization that advocates against services for female victims of domestic abuse and sexual assault, and claims rape victims to be "hysterical". To characterize SAVE as anything but purely misogynist and hateful is irresponsible.
The New York Times should be ashamed of presenting DeVos as doing her best in a politically complicated situation. It is decidedly uncomplicated to recognize that rape, in all cases, is wrong. And meeting with any person or organization attempting to justify rape or build escape routes for rapists adds to this wrong by excusing it.
At every turn, this essay implies there are two legitimate sides to a difficult issue, and that higher education as been "roiled by high-profile cases of sexual assault accusations."
Nonsense.
Higher education has been roiled by sexual assault—and in the last decade, we have finally started to have conversations about it. Making accusations of rape—as we all know—destroys the social resume of the accuser, which is why the majority of assault victims remain silent. Brock Turner is out and free. Bill Cosby is unlikely to see the inside of a prison cell. Megan Rondini is dead.
SAVE is a masthead-less organization that advocates against services for female victims of domestic abuse and sexual assault, and claims rape victims to be "hysterical". To characterize SAVE as anything but purely misogynist and hateful is irresponsible.
The New York Times should be ashamed of presenting DeVos as doing her best in a politically complicated situation. It is decidedly uncomplicated to recognize that rape, in all cases, is wrong. And meeting with any person or organization attempting to justify rape or build escape routes for rapists adds to this wrong by excusing it.
11
Yes, we are all advocates for victims and women; if we are moral ethical people. The men and women at SAVE for the most part have families, many have wives and daughters. Your blunt dismissal of them as "purely misogynist and hateful" is what is irresponsible.
11
Kudos for DeVos for righting the wrong, the DCL2011. The text of Title IX mandates equal access to education. Sexual misconduct and assault are particularly damaging to reputation and future education. Thus, the burden of proof should be much higher than the preponderance standard, i.e., 50.1%. In the civil justice system, for example, there is a 3rd standard of proof, clear and convincing; it is used when the allegations are reputation damaging, i.e., fraud is alleged.
Due process rights must exist whenever federal money is involved via the 14th Amendment. The TIX claim should be sworn so that perjury attaches to any false or puffed up statement, and discipline follows. False and puffed statements violate campus codes and are inherently discriminatory more often against men. Authors of such, should be subjected to TIX procedures as well. Full cooperation of all persons, including the accuser, must be provided or the claim is dropped and sanctions issued against the non-cooperating party. This is the only way to get the accuser’s electronic information if she/he is uncooperative.
Interim measures must be designed to protect the rights of both students, and be the LEAST restrictive to both students. If the incident is stale, i.e., older than 2 weeks, and there has not been uncivil behavior or repetitive stalking, the accused student should not be moved out of his/her dorm. Reform is badly needed.
Due process rights must exist whenever federal money is involved via the 14th Amendment. The TIX claim should be sworn so that perjury attaches to any false or puffed up statement, and discipline follows. False and puffed statements violate campus codes and are inherently discriminatory more often against men. Authors of such, should be subjected to TIX procedures as well. Full cooperation of all persons, including the accuser, must be provided or the claim is dropped and sanctions issued against the non-cooperating party. This is the only way to get the accuser’s electronic information if she/he is uncooperative.
Interim measures must be designed to protect the rights of both students, and be the LEAST restrictive to both students. If the incident is stale, i.e., older than 2 weeks, and there has not been uncivil behavior or repetitive stalking, the accused student should not be moved out of his/her dorm. Reform is badly needed.
20
It is past time for the Department of Education to withdraw the Obama administration’s notorious “Dear Colleague” letter, which pressured colleges and universities to adopt procedures for the adjudication of sexual assault complaints that are shockingly indifferent to basic civil liberties.
Under threat of the loss of federal funding, the Office of Civil Rights of the DOE has effectively forced schools to abolish the presumption of innocence in favor of a “preponderance of the evidence” standard that allows conviction of the accused if the evidence is found to tip even slightly against him. The DOE guidelines also do away with the accused’s fundamental right to confront the witnesses against him by “strongly discourag[ing] schools from allowing the parties personally to question or cross-examine each other during the hearing.”
Although campus adjudications made under the DOE guidelines are not criminal proceedings, they can have life-changing consequences, including expulsion from school, loss of a scholarship and lifelong branding as a rapist.
With these stakes, there is no room for procedures denounced by twenty-eight Harvard law professors, male and female, as “lack[ing] the most basic elements of fairness and due process” and being “overwhelmingly stacked against the accused.”
Under threat of the loss of federal funding, the Office of Civil Rights of the DOE has effectively forced schools to abolish the presumption of innocence in favor of a “preponderance of the evidence” standard that allows conviction of the accused if the evidence is found to tip even slightly against him. The DOE guidelines also do away with the accused’s fundamental right to confront the witnesses against him by “strongly discourag[ing] schools from allowing the parties personally to question or cross-examine each other during the hearing.”
Although campus adjudications made under the DOE guidelines are not criminal proceedings, they can have life-changing consequences, including expulsion from school, loss of a scholarship and lifelong branding as a rapist.
With these stakes, there is no room for procedures denounced by twenty-eight Harvard law professors, male and female, as “lack[ing] the most basic elements of fairness and due process” and being “overwhelmingly stacked against the accused.”
28
I am confused. Not sure why colleges or universities are targeted to investigate any crime, especially a violent crime like rape. Thought title IX was about not discriminating, based on sex, when it came to access to sports participation. Now it's about rape? Criminal acts should be pursued by the police and the court system. Period. Obama's 'Dear Colleague letter' was an outrageous over-reach.
29
Why does this article mention, without criticism or context, the "study" that gave us the absurd claim that one in four women are sexually assaulted in college?
The methods of the "study" wouldn't stand up to any credible scrutiny (this was a voluntary, self-reported on-line study). Additionally, the "study" was such that literally ANY physical contact could be reported as a sexual assault. There is no "reasonable person" standard in this study. Tapping someone on the shoulder to get their attention, making your way through a crowded hallway or room, or just bumping into someone could all be reported, in this "study" as sexual assault.
It was a farce and how this paper doesn't report it as such is sham.
The methods of the "study" wouldn't stand up to any credible scrutiny (this was a voluntary, self-reported on-line study). Additionally, the "study" was such that literally ANY physical contact could be reported as a sexual assault. There is no "reasonable person" standard in this study. Tapping someone on the shoulder to get their attention, making your way through a crowded hallway or room, or just bumping into someone could all be reported, in this "study" as sexual assault.
It was a farce and how this paper doesn't report it as such is sham.
32
Drunkenness does not excuse all actions. Being drunk does not remove all ability to think and act as one would when they are sober. Seriously, it's like you people have never been drunk before.
13
Do young men today not patronize brothels wherein a simple financial transaction entitles them to sex, no questions asked? Do they really believe that picking up the tab at dinner entitles 'the entitled' to sex upon demand? What are their parents teaching them? Anything?
7
There was an actual case at Columbia University.
A male and female student were having VOLUNTARY vaginal intercourse.
The female admitted this.
The male then asked for anal sex and persisted even though the female said no.
The female claimed she said no so her claim is the anal sex was non consensual..
The male said the anal sex was consensual.
Is this rape.
I make no judgment here.
I raise this case to make the point that what constitutes rape and what is necessary to prove rape is not always clear.
A male and female student were having VOLUNTARY vaginal intercourse.
The female admitted this.
The male then asked for anal sex and persisted even though the female said no.
The female claimed she said no so her claim is the anal sex was non consensual..
The male said the anal sex was consensual.
Is this rape.
I make no judgment here.
I raise this case to make the point that what constitutes rape and what is necessary to prove rape is not always clear.
3
No means no. She said no. He ignored the no. That's rape. It's not unclear at all.
21
I would argue yes, although the case will be difficult to prove.
2
Six short years of aggressors finally being held responsible for their actions is all it took for the backlash to hit.
6
Six long years of no due process for accused, the backlash is just beginning.
13
I am a female professor who detests Trump, and I applaud Ms. Jackson's plans to rectify the Kafkaesque circus that is the world of Title IX. People resisting her plans should read Laura Kipnis' recent book: Unwanted Advances: Sexual Paranoia Comes to Campus, which details how absurd, unfair, and biased these proceedings can be.
Anyone who commits rape should be prosecuted and punished, on or off campus. This is not under dispute. What is under dispute is how easy it has become for young women to make accusations months after the fact, and derail the lives of young men who thought they were taking part in a consensual act. The Kipnis book quotes someone high up in the Education dept under Obama ( I lent the book to a friend, and can't remember the exact quote/source) who says it was far more important to support all female victims/accusers than to make sure no men were falsely accused. This is blatanly unfair, and I really admire Jackson's point at the end of this article that the proceedings should resemble our justice system, where one is innocent until proven guilty, than the current stacked-deck house of cards Title IX has created.
Changes to the process will not make it harder for victims for come forward; those who protest that it will are contributing to the very unfortunate reductive brand of feminism currently trumpeted on campuses, where women are implicitly encouraged to celebrate antiquated female roles of victim (excellently critiqued by Kipnis).
Anyone who commits rape should be prosecuted and punished, on or off campus. This is not under dispute. What is under dispute is how easy it has become for young women to make accusations months after the fact, and derail the lives of young men who thought they were taking part in a consensual act. The Kipnis book quotes someone high up in the Education dept under Obama ( I lent the book to a friend, and can't remember the exact quote/source) who says it was far more important to support all female victims/accusers than to make sure no men were falsely accused. This is blatanly unfair, and I really admire Jackson's point at the end of this article that the proceedings should resemble our justice system, where one is innocent until proven guilty, than the current stacked-deck house of cards Title IX has created.
Changes to the process will not make it harder for victims for come forward; those who protest that it will are contributing to the very unfortunate reductive brand of feminism currently trumpeted on campuses, where women are implicitly encouraged to celebrate antiquated female roles of victim (excellently critiqued by Kipnis).
45
We have an incompetent know-nothing at the head of sexual assault investigation with an eye towards reducing the severity of the punishment. Get her out of the way and allow police with special sexual assault-trained teams conduct the investigations. She, like her boss, know nothing about building or developing, only tearing down. The wrecking ball party in action.
10
Ms. DeVos has no legal training, no rape counseling training, no training in education or public administration. It would literally not be possible to find someone less capable of tackling this issue.
20
Your comment actually proves the reason why the Dear Colleague needs to be abolished. Rape is a criminal activity and needs to be adjudicated through a defined legal process. The Dear Colleague letter put college administrators in charge Thanks for pointing this out.
17
The Universities and colleges have no legal training, no rape counseling training, no training in providing a fair judicial system with appropriate due process protections, no training in investigating an alleged crime. It would literally not be possible to find people less capable of tackling this issue....and Obama forced them to address it.
21
Good for DeVos and Jackson.
Men accused of sexual assault should be presumed innocent, as are women and men accused of any other crime.
The Obama Administration was very wrong here.
PS: As I told my daughter, now a wife and mother: Do not get drunk. Do not go alone with a man to his apartment or room during or after a party.
Men accused of sexual assault should be presumed innocent, as are women and men accused of any other crime.
The Obama Administration was very wrong here.
PS: As I told my daughter, now a wife and mother: Do not get drunk. Do not go alone with a man to his apartment or room during or after a party.
18
I don't see your point. Title IX triggers an investigation into an accusation, whether it be from a man or woman. If it's not an investigation that Betsy and Ms. Jackson want, then we've got a bigger problem on our hands. Also, while it's commendable for you advocate for certain safety measures by talking to your own daughters, you gotta remember not everyone does that, and in my experience, especially not to boys, or in this case young college men. It seems that Betsy and Ms. Jackson should be focusing more on changing the perception of the law, not the actually law itself. They could start by doing for everyone what you do for your daughters, talking to them about what to do and not to do and about what's appropriate and what's not. The time that passing during an investigation is not only tramtizing and humiliating for the accused, but also the accuser.
6
All good points. However, you don't seem to realize this is now a crisis developing with falsely accused young men being victimized. That gets worse every day and needs to stop first.
11
No "RAPE Victim" would utter those words. “Rather, the accusations — 90 percent of them — fall into the category of ‘we were both drunk,’ ‘we broke up, and six months later I found myself under a Title IX investigation because she just decided that our last sleeping together was not quite right,’ ” Jackson said. (Per Candice Jackson) Listen to the women who have real rape stories to tell rather than making up your own! Being raped changes your life breaks your spirit, steals trust, and forever instills fear.
17
If Madam Secretary would only remember one thing, she would stop this nonsense: Rape is forever.
9
Hey Frank, being wrongly accused is forever too. You clearly haven't had it happen to someone close to you. People have committed suicide....
There is nothing nonsensical about wanting to provide due process.
There is nothing nonsensical about wanting to provide due process.
19
A remarkably good article which honestly presents various opposing positions, including the all to common PC position that dissent, disagreement, due process advocacy is ipso facto bigoted and depraved.
"Women’s groups are girding for battle, and are outraged that some men’s rights groups — including advocates they regard as misogynists — are being included in Thursday’s sessions." Sound familiar? Yes, you're a bigot who must be silenced, exiled, if you dare to disagree with or even question the prevailing sacred canons of orthodox, PC dogma. (There's no similar outrage that some women’s rights groups — including advocates some regard as anti-male radicals — are being included in Thursday’s sessions.)
What dogma? One familiar principle was recently proclaimed by a presidential candidate (among others) who told female sex assault accusers "You have the right to be believed, and we're with you.” So, no presumption of innocence for accused men; rather, it's advocacy of a presumption of guilt. Accused men (other than Bill Clinton, of course) are deemed to be second class citizens, presumed guilty; defenders, due process advocates are bigots, equally guilty.
Departing from the norm, this article tends to avoid describing accusers as "victims." If accused men were routinely called "victims" of unproved allegations, women’s groups would be justifiably outraged. "Women’s groups" -- repent! :)
"Women’s groups are girding for battle, and are outraged that some men’s rights groups — including advocates they regard as misogynists — are being included in Thursday’s sessions." Sound familiar? Yes, you're a bigot who must be silenced, exiled, if you dare to disagree with or even question the prevailing sacred canons of orthodox, PC dogma. (There's no similar outrage that some women’s rights groups — including advocates some regard as anti-male radicals — are being included in Thursday’s sessions.)
What dogma? One familiar principle was recently proclaimed by a presidential candidate (among others) who told female sex assault accusers "You have the right to be believed, and we're with you.” So, no presumption of innocence for accused men; rather, it's advocacy of a presumption of guilt. Accused men (other than Bill Clinton, of course) are deemed to be second class citizens, presumed guilty; defenders, due process advocates are bigots, equally guilty.
Departing from the norm, this article tends to avoid describing accusers as "victims." If accused men were routinely called "victims" of unproved allegations, women’s groups would be justifiably outraged. "Women’s groups" -- repent! :)
17
It is medieval, not modern, to set colleges and universities outside the legal system and to expect administrators to address and adjudicate legal issues of rape, etc. Colleges and universities, even less than churches, temples, and mosques, should be outside the reach of the law. Complaints should be filed with police or forwarded to them from designated administrators who can counsel students and perhaps triage complaints. But federal and state guidelines are absurd.
12
The best way to insure justice for all is, once and for all, to get college administrators, who are amateurs at this, out of the whole process. These are accusations of CRIMES, and as such from the very beginning should be treated as a police matter and handled by them.
22
These are not always accusations of crimes. Are you familiar with Titke IX?
2
Until I became a rape victim myself, I might have made one of the comments that I've read on this thread. Experiencing the aftermath, I'm shocked at the medieval attitude towards rape that I'm reading. And here I thought Times readers tended to be educated and open minded. The societal knee-jerk reaction to a report of rape is still to first question the veracity of the victim. Of course a false claim is egregious and there should be consequences. But why would a woman put herself though that at the risk of public humiliation and ruining her and the accused life just because she had regrets? To just get attention? Come on.
68
I am also a victim of rape in my teen year and I am making some of those comments you seem to find objectionable. Asking for a better implementation of due process is not the same thing as giving rapists a pass or being insensitive to thee trauma of rape
20
Dear June from Nola, Spiteful campus guys and gals whose identities will be protected, whose statements will be never seen on paper by the accused, and whose accusations are assessed on a silly guess at best credibility (preponderance of evidence) and the fact that if the liar gets in first they are most likely the believed ones INVITES false reporting. People are spiteful for a thousand reasons, which they will conceal from campus investigators. Their spite is rooted in low self esteem. The falsely accused is stabbed in the soul regardless of the investigative outcome because people like you associate them with OJ Simpson and still regard them as probably guilty. The best support you can give a true victim making a report is the knowledge that false reporters will be identified and prosecuted if caught out. I pity the true victim with all of my heart. You should pity the falsely accused, who are equally violated victims, with all of your heart. Come on now! We just need fair processes. That aside, I admire your courage, as a victim, and you have my heart behind you.
9
Hey June, being a rape victim is horrible but it shouldn't cause you to consider due process as a medieval attitude. People lie, for all sorts of reasons, just like people commit rape. The issue isn't about making rape less of a crime, the issue is about providing a fair reasonable system of justice for all. There's nothing medieval about that.
12
One important fact that the article and the comments overlook is that those involved in these incidents are students. They often live on campus. They may know each other, know the same people, maybe even be in a class together. The presence of the accused can be incredibly uncomfortable for the accuser; just knowing that he is still on campus can be traumatic.
Having these cases handled by the courts as criminal matters is clearly preferable to having them adjudicated in a university setting. As the article makes clear, universities and colleges are ill-equipped to handle cases.
No matter what tribunal is involved, the fact remains that both parties involved go to the same school and will want to remain in school while the case winds its way through the legal process. That is a major challenge these cases present, perhaps the most difficult one to resolve.
Having these cases handled by the courts as criminal matters is clearly preferable to having them adjudicated in a university setting. As the article makes clear, universities and colleges are ill-equipped to handle cases.
No matter what tribunal is involved, the fact remains that both parties involved go to the same school and will want to remain in school while the case winds its way through the legal process. That is a major challenge these cases present, perhaps the most difficult one to resolve.
10
It is high time the kangaroo court system fueled by activist campus administrators and federal overreach via Title IX gets curtailed. The suspension of due process on our campuses has been a travesty and simply can not be allowed to continue.
22
There are excellent programs at universities such as SUNY-Albany and Michigan that because of their comprehensive prevention and health promotion approaches can show progress. Perhaps others are out there too. Change on this scale requires a comprehensive public health approach using best practices.
5
It is most often obvious when a man wants or is considering sex, but aside from the clear yes or no there is no tell tale sign quite as clear with women.
However thinking sex is not a natural desire innate to both men and women is to deny reality. The only way to avoid the pit so many fall into is an actual, no holds barred education which, as many parents are hesitant or them selves ignorant, should be delivered in school.
If Ms DeVos or any involved in education are not or pretend not to be aware of this they are as much a part of the problem as those offended by or accused of sexual assault.
Although supernatural beliefs don't appear at the center of this discussion they certainly provide the background for it and while they may may teach us many things about ourselves, the truth of sexual attraction is not one of them.
However thinking sex is not a natural desire innate to both men and women is to deny reality. The only way to avoid the pit so many fall into is an actual, no holds barred education which, as many parents are hesitant or them selves ignorant, should be delivered in school.
If Ms DeVos or any involved in education are not or pretend not to be aware of this they are as much a part of the problem as those offended by or accused of sexual assault.
Although supernatural beliefs don't appear at the center of this discussion they certainly provide the background for it and while they may may teach us many things about ourselves, the truth of sexual attraction is not one of them.
6
Your'e confusing the body with the mind. In sex, physical response is not the same as mental willingness and that goes for all sexes and genders. No one implied that women are less interested in sex then men. And there is a ton of education on college campuses about rape. It starts from day one. Sexual attraction is not what needs to be taught. What needs to be taught and is taught is how to give and receive enthusiastic consent and how to recognize when consent has not been given. There is no excuse for moving forward with a sexual act when enthusiastic consent has not been given.
1
And if enthusiastic consent is given, and then rescinded after the act? When the allegation follows a break-up? And if this is so serious, then why are we not taking this clear cut standard to the police? Why is the Justice Department not leaning on police forces across the Nation (threatening to withhold funds unless they sharpen their enforcement practices)? This is a crime we are talking about correct? This is not an academic debate, it's an allegation of a horrific and brutal crime and it should be treated as such. Assigning it to a process where basic due process rights are absent and 'preponderance of the evidence' leans heavily toward one gender rather than the weight of evidence is not helping the criminal problem - it is, as you see on these pages, generating a massive backlash. The Education Department is the wrong department for criminal matters.
5
"No one implied that women are less interested in sex than men." I'll imply it. I'll go further and say that it's common human wisdom and knowledge based on the experiences of billions of people who live now or came before us. Multiple scientific studies have confirmed this, and it's no sin against women's equality, which I support with heart and sould, to agree that it's true. Anything else is ideologically-based nonsense, reminiscent of a strain of 1970s feminist no-difference absolutism, that has since been demolished, by, among other things besides human experience, improved abilities to study the neural processes of our brains.
"Enthusiastic consent" is a relatively new term and technique to try to keep males on the hook for alleged rapes or abuse even if the woman does give her consent, but does so without perhaps screaming "OHMIGOD YES YES YES!" loud enough to wake the people in the next dorm room. It is a set-up for a new level of litigation of already-murky cases. Even if the male produces a consent form that the female signed right before intercourse, with no witnesses present it could always be alleged that she signed "unenthusiastically" as all of us have had to sign different things, and the male student still goes to the wall. This hypothetical points up the absurdity of much-later attempts to reconstruct, in a hearing, just how "enthusiastic" or not was one person's act of consent, or if it was reasonable for the other person to believe it was enthusiastic.
"Enthusiastic consent" is a relatively new term and technique to try to keep males on the hook for alleged rapes or abuse even if the woman does give her consent, but does so without perhaps screaming "OHMIGOD YES YES YES!" loud enough to wake the people in the next dorm room. It is a set-up for a new level of litigation of already-murky cases. Even if the male produces a consent form that the female signed right before intercourse, with no witnesses present it could always be alleged that she signed "unenthusiastically" as all of us have had to sign different things, and the male student still goes to the wall. This hypothetical points up the absurdity of much-later attempts to reconstruct, in a hearing, just how "enthusiastic" or not was one person's act of consent, or if it was reasonable for the other person to believe it was enthusiastic.
6
Why bring up the Duke lacrosse team (horrific) incident here? It was an entirely different circumstance in which a somewhat mentally disabled woman accused members of the team of raping her, and the politically motivated DA ramrodded the case along on circumstantial evidence and non-existent or faulty investigation. Further, there are real issues of on-campus assault, and while SOME may not be valid, making a (thankfully but likely too late corrected) statement about "90% of the situations" simply being regretted liaisons was stupid.
5
No Dave, the manner in which you described the Duke Lax case is exactly what is happening to college young men throughout the country on college campuses. Why do you think there are so many law suits pending?
8
They bring it up because it is yet another example of men's lives ruined due to a rape accusation that did not actually occur. Totally relevant here.
8
Deplorable woman
Guilty until proven innocent. Young men would be very wise to keep their pants on. This whole situation is a constitutional travesty.
13
Does anyone remember the case of the Duke University Lacrosse Team where four young men were accused of rape? That story turned out to be totally false. Yet the reputations of four young men were ruined while their accuser maintained her innocence and thus gained public support until the truth about the incident was resolved. As to incidents of college and university sexual abuse -- yes, a culture of alcohol abuse as part of college life often leading to sexual abuse and other tragedies must be reviewed. We have only to look at the tragic case currently underway regarding the fraternity death of Timothy Piazza at Penn State.
40
I think we all remember the Duke LaCrosse case. We probably also remember the Stanford swimmer case. There needs to be a middle ground between these two.
3
I'm quite sure that very many people remember that case. And I would bet that just as many remember the UVA student whose accusation of rape was written about in Rolling Stone and then found to have been false. But why do we remember them? I would argue that we remember, primarily, because these were anomalies. Yes, they were tragic for the falsely accused but where are all the stories of female students who were sexually assaulted and not believed? We don’t remember those and NO ONE hears about the women who never report being sexually assaulted. The Washington Post’s article about Ms. Jackson cites Jess Davidson, the managing director of the group End Rape on Campus, who told Time magazine, “When you look at the amount of students who are going to be assaulted in college versus the amount of students who are going to be wrongfully accused, significantly more students fall into the first category. The statement made it sound like she (Ms. Jackson) believes that 90% of accusations are false reports," Davidson said. " Statistically, that is untrue.” (And she cites a 2015 study published in the journal Violence Against Women that found that the prevalence of false allegations of sexual assault falls between 2% and 10%.)
1
Was not the Stanford swimmer tried for rape by a court of law and found guilty? All accusations of rape should be review by police, prosecutor and tried in a court of law as that was, is that too much to ask? Why should be have university deciding this things outside a court of law? Do you think being kicked out of a university is proper punishment for rape instead of imprisonment and registration as a sex offender?
5
Rape is a volent criminal act....done to women & men...and children too. This is a police matter. Seems that the hopes & dreams of men are more important then those of women. Betsey DeVos has no background or experience in these matters, or education for that matter. Her personal fundamentalist beliefs undermine American women's rights....when will Betsey suggest that women were burkas to keep from tempting the boys who apparently cannot control their animal impulses but need to be protected because they are college football stars or say they want to be a Dr. In Betsey's world men have more value then women and men are the great patriarchs of course that women must serve. This dangerously ignorant woman needs to be removed without further delay.
14
That is kind of the point Sandra. No one in the education system has a background to deal with criminal actions. The judicial system does.
I love President Obama, but this argument is a bit of a red herring, because the previous Secretary of Education had the same amount of criminal justice training as Betsy DeVos ... as did the one before that and the one before that.
Has lowering the standard of proof, denying access to evidence and cross examination, resulted in more punishment of rapists ... or helped to create a backlash of injustice that has made things much more difficult for actual victims of sexual assault to report their crimes and have them taken seriously?
We have a judicial system for a reason.
I love President Obama, but this argument is a bit of a red herring, because the previous Secretary of Education had the same amount of criminal justice training as Betsy DeVos ... as did the one before that and the one before that.
Has lowering the standard of proof, denying access to evidence and cross examination, resulted in more punishment of rapists ... or helped to create a backlash of injustice that has made things much more difficult for actual victims of sexual assault to report their crimes and have them taken seriously?
We have a judicial system for a reason.
12
The college conduct system makes a determination as to whether or not the college's code of conduct was violated, not whether or not a crime was committed. The conduct system does not replace the legal system. The two systems often work simultaneously. The debate is over whether or not college dismissal is too high a price to pay for being found responsible for violating the college's policies on what constitutes mutual consent. What's telling is that no one seems to want to debate whether or not dismissal is too high a price to pay for violating campus drug and alcohol codes, campus rules on the destruction of property, campus rules on fighting or arson or reckless endangerment. A transcript notation of dismissal for conduct code or academic integrity code violations is hard to recover from, regardless of what the actual violation was. Much student misconduct is also illegal. Should campuses ignore all of it? If there is a preponderance of evidence that a student is starting dorm fires, should the college do nothing until there is enough evidence to convict him/her of arson?
y'all are forgetting about the woman who was raped. Are there a few men who are falsely accused? sure - is it unfair to them? sure is! Can they have their lives changed forever? definitely!! but there are so many more women that are raped, and their rapists do no time - or the rapes don't get reported. Rape generally throws a much bigger monkey wrench into someone's life than a false accusation. I'm sorry to the men (and certainly false accusations are unjustified and should have consequences), but battling rape on college campuses is extremely important, and college administrations have historically been uncooperative in rape allegations and investigations, trying to hide any bad behavior on their campuses. Hence the law.
14
"It is better that nine guilty go free than one innocent go to jail"
Our Founding Fathers
Hence the law
Our Founding Fathers
Hence the law
10
Aundrea perhaps your missing the problem here: why are college campuses trying men for rape? Why is this not a justice department matter? The falsely accused men get kicked out of college, but the rightfully accused men, get kicked out of college instead of imprisoned and registered as sex offenders! The punishment for rape should not merely be expulsion or being fired!
4
I find it disturbing that the idea that the accused should get a fair trial is so controversial in America right now. We have a system where if the college thinks there is a 50.001% chance of you being guilty, you get expelled, making it difficult to get into another college due to the record and making lifelong poverty far more likely. The accused are often not allowed to have lawyers or even cross examine the accuser. Cutting off someone's future over basically a coin flip is wrong. In America we purposefully provide support for defendants because we understand that convicting someone of something they are not guilty of adds injustice to our system.
Being expelled from college isn't like a parking ticket. It can have real life altering effects. A 50% likelihood coin flip is far too low of a standard. I'm no Trump supporter, but I am glad that they are addressing this issue.
Being expelled from college isn't like a parking ticket. It can have real life altering effects. A 50% likelihood coin flip is far too low of a standard. I'm no Trump supporter, but I am glad that they are addressing this issue.
22
Having a University "investigate" a sexual assault case is like having the wolf look into better ways to improve the hen house. The university has its own priorities and oftentimes they have nothing to do with the victim of an assault and more to do with protecting the university's ability to attract either funding or more student applications.
An accusation of rape is a serious one, sure. But once it is made the police should investigate and it should be removed from the university's domain.
If the accuser is making a false statement, there are legal remedies that are available to charge him/her.
Colleges should put greater effort in prevention protocols to guard its students' welfare, like curbing access to alcohol (and enforcing greater penalties for alcohol-related violations of college rules), limiting fraternities and sororities, and holding students accountable for their behavior, just like we treat all adults in the real world.
An accusation of rape is a serious one, sure. But once it is made the police should investigate and it should be removed from the university's domain.
If the accuser is making a false statement, there are legal remedies that are available to charge him/her.
Colleges should put greater effort in prevention protocols to guard its students' welfare, like curbing access to alcohol (and enforcing greater penalties for alcohol-related violations of college rules), limiting fraternities and sororities, and holding students accountable for their behavior, just like we treat all adults in the real world.
11
Title IX sadly is needed. Even though I didn't vote for the former president, I don't fault him for trying to take an aggressive stand against sexual violence. Title IX could stand to be reviewed and modified. After looking at how Title IX has been rolled out in colleges and universities, it seems clear to me that some more oversight and regulation could assist these schools having problems understanding how to effectively adopt it. Title IX should not take the place of everyone is innocent until proven otherwise, nor in its absence should any complaint not be taken seriously and truthful, until proven otherwise.
And people wonder why their is still gender inequality in our society. We teach young people that men are more accountable than women. We teach them that men are responsible for both their decisions. The entire way this is setup reinforces this. What do we expect?
13
How has it come down to where giving the accused the rights of any accused person is now the same as denying rights to the accuser? Where "taking the accusation seriously" demands immediate punishment of the accused, stripping him of reputation, scholarships, class attendance, talking to witnesses, even confronting the accuser and presenting a defense?
Women have been so elevated, and men so degraded, that a mere accusation is now taken as the verdict.
Women have been so elevated, and men so degraded, that a mere accusation is now taken as the verdict.
14
I completely agree that universities need to get out of the sexual assault investigation and punishment arena and handed over to the local police with one caveat ... that local police bar their staff from working, off-duty, for the university or university athletics association in any way.
It's hard to bite the hand that's feeding you.
It's hard to bite the hand that's feeding you.
9
Take accusations of sexual assault and adjudicate them in the courts where they belong. The only role that the University should play is to refer these cases to the proper authorities.
34
It is not a matter of either the University or the Police investigate, it should be both. Why there is a culture on campus that allows these incidents to occur is a very good question and administrators are responsible for that culture. Preventing this type of crime should be the focus, not these devisive after the fact opinion flings. I believe that it was Antioch college that at one point had all students sign a contract upon entering the college or university that stated that they understood that no means no and that there are steps to consent. This is very useful for all participants to understand. No ambivalence. That permission to continue in a sexual encounter is discussed, as in are we doing this? Keep going? Stop now? Are you comfortable? I don't know the details having attended college years and years and years ago. But I sure was impressed when a former student of Antioch told me that they never felt that safe again after leaving the university. So maybe signing a contract attesting to your behavior can combat the drinking culture, but maybe it is not the contract it is the conversation ahead of entering the university about what consent is and respect for your sexual partners, perhaps with some statistics thrown in that makes a difference. Lets find that contract that Antioch had and send it to Ms Devos. Or better yet every college and University president in the United states.
4
"Why there is a culture on campus that allows these incidents to occur is a very good question" I worked on a college campus for the past 15 years. I can easily answer this question: ALCOHOL Take it out of the equation and the majority of these cases disappear. The real question here is why do our colleges turn a blind eye to the easy access and proliferation of alcohol availability to college students? Why, because if they got tougher on partying it would affect their admissions. Don't kid yourself, that's reality.
3
the beauty of the American justice system is that the "defendant", in most countries is called the "accused", has to be proven guilty and when in doubt always "pro reo", no with this Obama system, what a legacy!
14
I went to a prestigious university. I remember they published any criminal incidents in our newspaper. 2-3 times a week there were reports of a girl being assaulted by a guy walking down the street. Or maybe chased on the quad. I never went anywhere alone at night. If you think it is being exaggerated, it is not. This was in the 00's.
The problem is students are getting information from other ill- informed students. Parents should have real conversations about sex that aren't wrapped in patriarchal thinking. Women don't want it if they resist. Men don't have the right to take it regardless of the relationship. Have a sober friend that can help you when you try to leave with a stranger. Don't get pissy drunk just because you can. There a 1000 things that could go wrong. Rape and assault are just two. Use your common sense.
The problem is students are getting information from other ill- informed students. Parents should have real conversations about sex that aren't wrapped in patriarchal thinking. Women don't want it if they resist. Men don't have the right to take it regardless of the relationship. Have a sober friend that can help you when you try to leave with a stranger. Don't get pissy drunk just because you can. There a 1000 things that could go wrong. Rape and assault are just two. Use your common sense.
6
And the women who are drugged? Does that fall under "common sense" too?
1
Agree with many commenters that rape should be handled by police and adjudicated by the courts, not college administrators.
Please provide breakdown by race on accused and an analysis of those statistics. A majority of the accused are white, right? The intensely biased slant about protecting the future of the accused - with much less regard for female victims' consequences or futures - reeks of white male privilege.
Please provide breakdown by race on accused and an analysis of those statistics. A majority of the accused are white, right? The intensely biased slant about protecting the future of the accused - with much less regard for female victims' consequences or futures - reeks of white male privilege.
13
Excellent comment. De Voss was raised in that type of culture. No surprise she wants to push her worldview. Did you know that killer Erik Prince is her brother?
1
Oh, so now the constitutionally protected right to due process is a function of "white privilege"? Why am I not surprised you're from California? And yea, if her brother is a criminal she must be also so let's boot her out.
Are you knuckleheads serious?
Are you knuckleheads serious?
9
Do we have a rape problem or an alcohol abuse problem? One with all the symptoms, like rape, violence, accidental death, car accidents, arrests, property damage.
12
We have both.
6
The NYT just can't get it straight, can it? The headline should refer to "Campus Sexual Assault Policies", not "rape". "Sexual Assault" has been re-defined to extend to "a touch, anywhere on the body, done with [perceived sexual intent] and without consent". What this wildly expanded definition means is that everyone who ever studied or work on a college campus could be accused of "sexual assault" and found guilty. For the NYT to imply that the accusations of sexual assault are accusations of forcible rape, which what we all think of when the headline says "rape policies", is grossly misleading. I have also attended a Sexual Assault Investigator training where the attorney-"trainer" said "if you can't make one accusation stick, then keep looking until you find an accusation that will stick". (In other words, the male is guilty, whatever actually happened.) We were also advised that if a female accused a male, "do a 'little i-investigation' and drop it". In practice, if a young college male and female are drunk and have sexual relations (of any kind), ONLY the woman can make an accusation and have it pursued by the campus. I have an insider's view of the way Title IX has been interpreted and implemented under the Obama Administration and it can only be described as Kafka-esque for the accused (who is always male).
26
Just come out and say you agree with de voss
The "Californian" proved there's at least someone in California who still has some common sense and believes in our Constitution.
3
I dread where this might end up, especially in the hands of the ethics currently in sway at the White House. The few women now on the team won’t be looking after the safety of young women at University, that’s for sure.
Every family should realise that safety for their sons is huge danger for their daughters unless great efforts are made to save the girls from unwanted sexual attentions, crimes which can be very difficult to prove. So the victim keeps quiet and her health, education and her career suffers. But that’s OK, let the female population continue to be the punchbags.
If the old advice holds, where a girl is supposed to live a modest, reasonably celibate, life to avoid attracting a perpetrator, then I’m afraid the boys are going to have to protect themselves by living clean in the same way. Either way, let’s throw both genders to the wolves when things go wrong, not just the females.
When I saw that some law professors thought Obama’s system was taking it too far (against the men) I couldn’t help wondering how many of those professors were male, had a great time at Uni, and don’t care anyway about the protection of female students of today. Do THEY have daughters?
Every family should realise that safety for their sons is huge danger for their daughters unless great efforts are made to save the girls from unwanted sexual attentions, crimes which can be very difficult to prove. So the victim keeps quiet and her health, education and her career suffers. But that’s OK, let the female population continue to be the punchbags.
If the old advice holds, where a girl is supposed to live a modest, reasonably celibate, life to avoid attracting a perpetrator, then I’m afraid the boys are going to have to protect themselves by living clean in the same way. Either way, let’s throw both genders to the wolves when things go wrong, not just the females.
When I saw that some law professors thought Obama’s system was taking it too far (against the men) I couldn’t help wondering how many of those professors were male, had a great time at Uni, and don’t care anyway about the protection of female students of today. Do THEY have daughters?
13
Would you replace the presumption of innocence with a presumption of guilt and strip away from the accused all the legal protections that our society normally provides?
The truth is that some accusations are false and some of the accused are innocent. That's why these cases should be adjudicated in the courts and not by Universities ill equipped to make such determinations.
The truth is that some accusations are false and some of the accused are innocent. That's why these cases should be adjudicated in the courts and not by Universities ill equipped to make such determinations.
21
"I dread where this might end up".
Well, if it ends up with a return to due process (instead of he said - she said, with her version being favored even when it doesn't hold up), then I believe most level-minded people will be happy. Abusing Title IX because "since rape is underreported, it's only fair that men get unfairly accused to even the score" is not a sustainable philosophy, and casts a haunting doubt on possibly legitimate claims thereafter.
Well, if it ends up with a return to due process (instead of he said - she said, with her version being favored even when it doesn't hold up), then I believe most level-minded people will be happy. Abusing Title IX because "since rape is underreported, it's only fair that men get unfairly accused to even the score" is not a sustainable philosophy, and casts a haunting doubt on possibly legitimate claims thereafter.
12
As a college professor at a state college in the South, I am amazed on a daily basis by most of the students. They are lazy, clueless, sloppy, inept and irresponsible. But among the worst behavior I have witnessed is their overwhelming sense of entitlement. They may not do their classwork or homework or even show up for class, but they sure know how to work the system when they are incensed by a well-deserved poor grade. They are 'consumers' after all and paying for college is what they expect to be the respected point of view. How this relates to their sexual behavior is an area outside of my expertise. But I suspect this mindset impacts all aspects of their lives. If they're not cognizant of their responsibilities to assure they utilize college for it's main purpose, the instilling of knowledge and discipline, they're probably not responsible about their sexual behavior. I can't tell you the number of students I encounter who are pregnant or have more than one young child who are clearly not capable of raising a chicken much less a human. Sexual education starts at home and sound sexual judgement should be emphasized in grade school. I fear by the time they enter college, it's just too late.
16
The article doesn't mention that because of the loss of due process protections for accused, forced on universities by the Obama administration letter, multiple universities are being sued by accused (Cornell, for example). At my alma mater, investigations have been botched by busy, poorly trained investigators. The Harvard professor's letter is exhibit A that this Obama initiative went off the rails--advocates can't ignore that letter, try as they might.
15
no reason for colleges and universities to be allowed any authority for investigating sexual assault,,,these are alleged crimes and should be reported to and investigated by police...the school, to the extent it need be involved at all should be, rather a target of scrutiny than an unconstitutionally constituted authority - for example, any school with a no-alcohol policy or other rules governing use of alcohol, should be represented under oath in testimony concerning active oversight/enforcement (likely zero) of that or any other social policies or rules.
if no crime is alleged, questions of harassment may be seen as reflections of the college culture and, subject to institutional self-examination (and aggressive efforts to adjust the culture) as well as case by case examination.
student and faculty "judicial" boards and committees should have no place in criminal matters, anyone who has observed these entities in action need go no further for proof of their essential lack of qualification...but they do have some value as centers for debate over the evolution of a school's culture, a mix of policies (usually let be until there is a crisis) and custom (one still hears the boys "rating" the girls and the girls, far less likely to be thought of as factors, complaining about the boys...a favorite from old notes: "(expletive) there are 500 girls running around here in their underwear and most of these guys are watching hockey."
and please, no "too complicated" excuses,
if no crime is alleged, questions of harassment may be seen as reflections of the college culture and, subject to institutional self-examination (and aggressive efforts to adjust the culture) as well as case by case examination.
student and faculty "judicial" boards and committees should have no place in criminal matters, anyone who has observed these entities in action need go no further for proof of their essential lack of qualification...but they do have some value as centers for debate over the evolution of a school's culture, a mix of policies (usually let be until there is a crisis) and custom (one still hears the boys "rating" the girls and the girls, far less likely to be thought of as factors, complaining about the boys...a favorite from old notes: "(expletive) there are 500 girls running around here in their underwear and most of these guys are watching hockey."
and please, no "too complicated" excuses,
10
I agree. Rape is a crime, it should be investigated by the police in the jurisdiction in which the school is located. Never understood why schools are involved at all. The only way the school police should be involved at all is to contact the local police at the time the incident is reported. Then make the school available to the police for their investigation. School police should be used to enforce the school rules such as the "no alcohol" rule, or harassment rules.
7
The source of this problem is the dorms and the in loco parentis nonsense. These are adults-old enough to vote and fight-why do we keep them in dorms and baby them like this? University should be more like work--by all means dismiss someone engaging in any sexual misconduct (even if there is not enough evidence for police and prosecutors), but this quasi-judicial nonsense is absurd.
1
Does anyone else think it odd that as the incidence of rape has dropped precipitously over the past 20-30 years, the idea of a "rape culture" is in the ascendancy? And that we are now assured that colleges, which are undoubtedly populated by a very high percentage of rule following, law abiding young people, are a hotbed of sexual assault?
College administrators have no business determining the likelihood that a sexual assault occurred and meting out punishment. It is also hard to avoid the thought that President Obama pushed this misguided Title IX policy because he has only daughters. Anyone with college-age sons knows that the way universities treat these sexual assault allegations gives a frightening amount of power to the accuser and that fairness is somewhere down at the bottom of the hierarchy of institutional concerns in such investigations.
College administrators have no business determining the likelihood that a sexual assault occurred and meting out punishment. It is also hard to avoid the thought that President Obama pushed this misguided Title IX policy because he has only daughters. Anyone with college-age sons knows that the way universities treat these sexual assault allegations gives a frightening amount of power to the accuser and that fairness is somewhere down at the bottom of the hierarchy of institutional concerns in such investigations.
41
@Jay
Please provide sources for the claim that "the incidence of rape has dropped precipitously over the past 20-30 years"? Rape is a notoriously underreported crime. Victims are shamed traumatized, left with life-shattering wounds, both physical and emotional. It is an open secret that many rape victims do not confront rapists because they know they will find no justice on campus nor in the criminal justice system.
Can you cite an actual or approximate number of rapes in comparison to false accusations? Surely you know of women who report sexual assault long after the event: think Cosby, Ailes, O'Reilly, and yes, DJTrump for starters, as well less prominent men--prep school teachers, coaches, thesis advisors, tech moguls, bosses everywhere.
As for "the way universities treat these sexual assault allegations gives a frightening amount of power to the accuser and ... fairness is somewhere down at the bottom of the hierarchy of institutional concerns," I am moved to wonder what parallel universe you inhabit. How many star athletes have raped -- or gang raped -- and been saved by coaches? Who is more powerless than a rape victim? Do victims end up not going to med school or whatever in equal proportion to the few rapists who are expelled?
How do you or Ms. DeVos justify moving the conversation on rape to the sufferings of a probably small number of privileged white boys, and away from uncounted female victims just as so many women are finding strength to report assault?
Please provide sources for the claim that "the incidence of rape has dropped precipitously over the past 20-30 years"? Rape is a notoriously underreported crime. Victims are shamed traumatized, left with life-shattering wounds, both physical and emotional. It is an open secret that many rape victims do not confront rapists because they know they will find no justice on campus nor in the criminal justice system.
Can you cite an actual or approximate number of rapes in comparison to false accusations? Surely you know of women who report sexual assault long after the event: think Cosby, Ailes, O'Reilly, and yes, DJTrump for starters, as well less prominent men--prep school teachers, coaches, thesis advisors, tech moguls, bosses everywhere.
As for "the way universities treat these sexual assault allegations gives a frightening amount of power to the accuser and ... fairness is somewhere down at the bottom of the hierarchy of institutional concerns," I am moved to wonder what parallel universe you inhabit. How many star athletes have raped -- or gang raped -- and been saved by coaches? Who is more powerless than a rape victim? Do victims end up not going to med school or whatever in equal proportion to the few rapists who are expelled?
How do you or Ms. DeVos justify moving the conversation on rape to the sufferings of a probably small number of privileged white boys, and away from uncounted female victims just as so many women are finding strength to report assault?
4
Is it odd? It kind of makes sense, if you think about it. Discussing rape was taboo, and, except for a few circumstances, reporting it could lead to more shame, ostracism, etc. for the victim than the accused.
As feminism gained influence, women slowly gained power in society and control over their lives. Discussing and reporting rape became more acceptable, and pressing charges more common. Some forms of rape that were previously legal (like marital rape up to 1993) or tolerated became more widely recognized as crimes.
Simultaneously, as things changed, people started becoming aware of aspects of our culture that were...off. Before, suggesting a woman wanted sex because she wore a skirt and makeup, regardless of whether she said "no," was seen as relatively normal. Stating that "a respectable man would never do something like that, and this girl must have led him on" was a go-to line in response to a rape accusation. It still is in some places.
As for the "law-abiding youths in college" bit, it's naive. I assure you, there is plenty of law-breaking, including sexual assault and rape, sadly. And while universities being extreme in investigating the accused is unacceptable, they have often blown-off victims or even covered up rape cases over the years. Ideally the police would handle it, but victims still have to sit in the same class with the person who raped them the week before, and that tends to inhibit one's ability to learn, as you can imagine.
As feminism gained influence, women slowly gained power in society and control over their lives. Discussing and reporting rape became more acceptable, and pressing charges more common. Some forms of rape that were previously legal (like marital rape up to 1993) or tolerated became more widely recognized as crimes.
Simultaneously, as things changed, people started becoming aware of aspects of our culture that were...off. Before, suggesting a woman wanted sex because she wore a skirt and makeup, regardless of whether she said "no," was seen as relatively normal. Stating that "a respectable man would never do something like that, and this girl must have led him on" was a go-to line in response to a rape accusation. It still is in some places.
As for the "law-abiding youths in college" bit, it's naive. I assure you, there is plenty of law-breaking, including sexual assault and rape, sadly. And while universities being extreme in investigating the accused is unacceptable, they have often blown-off victims or even covered up rape cases over the years. Ideally the police would handle it, but victims still have to sit in the same class with the person who raped them the week before, and that tends to inhibit one's ability to learn, as you can imagine.
5
What a load of jumbled malarkey. In case you hadn't noticed, Presiden Obama is a man. So I'm pretty sure he's sensitive to the concerns of males.
Violent crime in general had fallen dramatically over the last 20 years, rape included. Largely because of demographics: the majority of violent crimes are committed tby men under 35, and we have far fewer men in this age range now.
As for the "ascendency of rape culture" many authorities also attribute the apparent decline in rape to the fact that women have emerged from the shadows to speak about their assaults, thereby educating the public and preventing more crimes. So no, it's not odd at all--just the opposite.
Violent crime in general had fallen dramatically over the last 20 years, rape included. Largely because of demographics: the majority of violent crimes are committed tby men under 35, and we have far fewer men in this age range now.
As for the "ascendency of rape culture" many authorities also attribute the apparent decline in rape to the fact that women have emerged from the shadows to speak about their assaults, thereby educating the public and preventing more crimes. So no, it's not odd at all--just the opposite.
4
Well, there are several solutions or protective actions. One is to not have sex with women on a casual basis. Quelle horreur!! No casual sex?? Surely you jest, she/he said.
A second is to take a legal document and have her or him or both sign it that the sexual encounter was consensual. Of course, that means you have to have an a priori document signing, admitting how the evening might go, That would eliminate the "I didn't know she/he wanted to do THAT". Or, if both are too drunk or high, just stop. Imagine that, stopping.
A third is to decide to be celibate, both men and women. It's possible. Raging hormones don't have to control you. Masturbation can relieve the pressure, especially for men.
What's really gone wrong is virtue and morals. Thanks, Boomers. How are your kids handling it? Apparently not well, if the article is any indication. And why are parents assuming their children will engage in wild parties, etc. Because they did, I guess. Sad, sad commentary on where we have come to in our social contacts. Just animals.
A second is to take a legal document and have her or him or both sign it that the sexual encounter was consensual. Of course, that means you have to have an a priori document signing, admitting how the evening might go, That would eliminate the "I didn't know she/he wanted to do THAT". Or, if both are too drunk or high, just stop. Imagine that, stopping.
A third is to decide to be celibate, both men and women. It's possible. Raging hormones don't have to control you. Masturbation can relieve the pressure, especially for men.
What's really gone wrong is virtue and morals. Thanks, Boomers. How are your kids handling it? Apparently not well, if the article is any indication. And why are parents assuming their children will engage in wild parties, etc. Because they did, I guess. Sad, sad commentary on where we have come to in our social contacts. Just animals.
13
Another is just don't get stoned. Which seems to be at the heart of all these cases.
And if a student can't abstain, they have an alcohol problem and shouldn't be drinking anyway. As shocking as it might seem young people in recovery have fun, date, have sex, all without alcohol. Amazing.
If they can do it...
And if a student can't abstain, they have an alcohol problem and shouldn't be drinking anyway. As shocking as it might seem young people in recovery have fun, date, have sex, all without alcohol. Amazing.
If they can do it...
3
Partly right! I was wondering too about the micro-management that would be necessary to protect everyone fully.
2
Indeed we are just animals, as nature intended.
2
In the apparently large number of 'we were both drunk' cases, the argument that being intoxicated absolves either the accused or the accuser of responsibility for their actions is ridiculous, and doesn't seem to apply anywhere else. Being drunk when you decide to get in your car would not reduce your responsibility for the damage you did, would it? If being drunk excuses one party from having to take responsibility for the consent they apparently gave, why does it not excuse the other party for assuming the consent was genuine? Having voluntarily become intoxicated should not be an excuse for anything.
28
Oh my..."the consent they apparently gave"? Isn't that usually based on the claims of he accused, who probably wouldn't admit if there wasn't any consent?
But, sure, let's use the ill-fitting drunk driving analogy. There are 2 people in this scenario, though, and, likely, one may be much less intoxicated than the other. If the former puts the slurring, half-conscious person in the driver's seat, starts the car, and presses the accelerator for the drunker person, are you really saying, "Well the drunk driver apparently consented to driving (the guy who put her in the car said so), so it's her fault"?
But, sure, let's use the ill-fitting drunk driving analogy. There are 2 people in this scenario, though, and, likely, one may be much less intoxicated than the other. If the former puts the slurring, half-conscious person in the driver's seat, starts the car, and presses the accelerator for the drunker person, are you really saying, "Well the drunk driver apparently consented to driving (the guy who put her in the car said so), so it's her fault"?
2
Bad comparison. The reference should be to a collision where both parties were found to be inebriated. However you are right to place responsibility on both accuser and the accused who decided to impair their judgment by getting drunk. This applies to the Stanford case. Jane Doe allowed herself to drink to unconscousness. By that time Brock Turner was himself blotto. The punishment was roundly criticized but it was fair because of the responsibility of Jane Doe. It takes two to tango.
3
But it is and it can get you raped. You need to wake up to reality of it.
Both man a woman should not drink to the excess, it is when this occurs.
Both man a woman should not drink to the excess, it is when this occurs.
Rape is investigated on college campuses under Title IX not to establish the criminality of the event, but to establish whether a rapist or perpetrator should be expelled from the school (as expediently as possible so as not to endanger or further traumatize the victim or others), which is not a matter of criminal justice. The standard of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt is established as the standard the state must meet to take away a person's personal liberty by jailing them under criminal law, but the campus dispute does not rise to that level of proof because it is a civil proceeding. The point of the Title IX proceeding is simply to expel rapists from campuses. Students have no inherent right to stay enrolled in a college. A criminal prosecution is another matter entirely. Reasons women are reluctant to pursue criminal cases are well-documented and easily researched with Google.
The level of concern expressed in these comments for accused men and the level of suspicion against women who are victims of a common, heinous felony is sickening. Some commenters seem not to even understand the basic parameters of sexual consent or what constitutes sexual assault. In what other crime are the victims automatically screened for possible false reporting? Why is it so difficult for people -- men especially, it seems -- to believe these crimes occur regularly and commonly?
The level of concern expressed in these comments for accused men and the level of suspicion against women who are victims of a common, heinous felony is sickening. Some commenters seem not to even understand the basic parameters of sexual consent or what constitutes sexual assault. In what other crime are the victims automatically screened for possible false reporting? Why is it so difficult for people -- men especially, it seems -- to believe these crimes occur regularly and commonly?
42
This man, and father, believes you are so right about some things - that sexual assault occurs too often, and that victims are reluctant to pursue criminal charges, both out in the world, and on college campuses. Complete agreement. But you make dangerous assumptions. To assume the accused is guilty, as you do when you say the point of the Title IX proceeding is simply to expel rapists, is the very reason to reexamine the process on campus. The question here is whether the Dear Colleague letter incentivized colleges into an over-correction for the many years of not taking these cases seriously. On many campuses this over-correction is real. And, are victims really 'automatically screened' for possible false reporting? That would be terrible. Lastly, you begin you comment with - 'Rape is investigated on college campuses under Title IX not to establish the criminality of the event' then go on to refer to 'heinous felonies' and lament that people find it difficult to believe that these 'crimes' occur regularly. A crime is a crime, and a felony is not a civil matter. If someone commits a rape, that is a crime, and they belong in jail - why would you let them off with an expulsion? That will put them out into neighborhoods where they can continue to rape more innocent women? Rapist belong in jail.
1
If you think that "sexual assault" as it is defined under Title IX means "forcible rape", then it is you who "don't understand..what constitute sexual assault". "Sexual assault" is defined in most college codes as "a touch anywhere on the body [even though clothing], if done with sexual intent and without consent". This means that someone who gives a hug or a kiss on the forehead can be accused of "sexual assault" (and people have been). And in any fair system, accusers are always "screened for possible false reporting." Of course people falsely accuse other people--for a variety of reasons. What people don't believe is that college campuses are especially dangerous for women. The idea that the elite college and universities--Stanford, for instance--are particularly dangerous places for women, is ludicrous.
4
But there is a third standard of evidence you don't mention. in Criminal procedings the Standard is beyond a reasonable doubt. In Civil proceedings, where the remedy is an award of money the standard is preponderance of evidence. But these cases are not about only the awarding of money. Expulsion is a future destroying event, as it puts a scarlet letter on the accused potentially destroying their life's purpose and dreams. it's far beyond the awarding of money. In these situations the standard should be clear and convincing evidence a middle standard. This was the standard used before the Obama administration put its thumb on the scale with its dear colleague letter. The only way to ensure fairness is to use the clear and convincing standard.
5
Let us remember the original reason there was pressure from the bama administration for colleges to step up when charges of sexual assault are made: because the real police won't.
The accused should be GLAD and thank Obama for this intermediate level of administrative enforcement because the college does not have the power to lock 'em up.
Even with this expedited method of adjudicating this issue some of the victims of assault are STILL waiting up to 5 years for a resolution.
The accused should be GLAD and thank Obama for this intermediate level of administrative enforcement because the college does not have the power to lock 'em up.
Even with this expedited method of adjudicating this issue some of the victims of assault are STILL waiting up to 5 years for a resolution.
5
And why can't the Justice Department lean on police agencies instead of universities when it comes to failure to enforce criminal laws? Isn't that what the Justice Department is for? Why aren't college campuses reaching out to police officials to help reign in the problem?
Should we lean on NASA to fix the police failure to properly investigate sexual assault as well?
Should we lean on NASA to fix the police failure to properly investigate sexual assault as well?
2
As an educator I'm no fan of Betsy DeVos, she's right up there with Scott Pruitt and Jeff Sessions in this disastrous cabinet, but I think she is right to re-evaluate the Dear Colleague Letter. I have little doubt it was well intentioned, but it has set up a system ripe for abuse, and it has been abused -student against student, student against faculty, faculty against faculty, faculty against student, student against the school, faculty against the school, school against faculty. Several commenters have recommended Jon Krakauer's book. That's one perspective, but if you are willing to take a more nuanced look at a complicated issue here are several other books to try: Unwanted Advances by Laura Kipnis, The Campus Rape Frenzy by KC Johnson and Stuart Taylor, 2017 NCHERM Group Whitepaper-Due Process and the Sex Police
22
Yes, but reading the books about self-protection must be a responsibility applied to both genders not just the girls. It's always the girls who carry the can for their safety. That should change.
4
I've read dozens of cases of these young men charged with Title IX violations - in which the boys sue after being expelled - and many are in a gray area. Take a look at these 200+ articles about these cases and others. Of course there ARE horrendous abuses. But there are many that are much much much more ambiguous. Many involve a couple that has never met, meets at a party after a huge number of drinks (5 to 10?) and then has sex - and it doesn't turn out to be wonderful. Though mostly they can't quite remember. What a surprise. http://www.saveservices.org/sexual-assault/editorials/2017-2/
7
Why are colleges involved in this issue at all? Every College I have been has been inside the borders of a city that has a police force and a judicial system. Its staffed by people who deal with ALL kinds of crime professionally, and full time. How are University administrators, under tremendous political and cultural pressure with no expertise in these matters, grouping for solutions that invariably wind up punishing victims going to solve this issue? There is a simple solution, crimes on campus belong to the city and its judicial system. A sexual assault across the university boundary should not, one way or the other, be handled by different standards. Its a crime, and there is a system in America for handling crimes. Let it do its job and get academics back to being academics rather than judges and juries.
16
Plagiarism can be a crime in some contexts. It is also a basis on which colleges can and do take disciplinary action (including expulsion, perhaps) without turning to local law enforcement.
2
Colleges and universities generally rely on the criminal law to define sexual assault (rape). An element of rape is lack of consent. In criminal court, lack of consent must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. But pursuant to the "Dear Colleague" letter, lack of consent need be proven only by a preponderance of the evidence on college campuses.
I'm no Trump fan, but this deserves some scrutiny. For young adults who are not in the college environment, the beyond a reasonable doubt standard applies. For young adults in college, a lesser standard applies.
This raises significant equal protection problems under constitutional law. What is the rational basis for treating college and university students differently?
I'm no Trump fan, but this deserves some scrutiny. For young adults who are not in the college environment, the beyond a reasonable doubt standard applies. For young adults in college, a lesser standard applies.
This raises significant equal protection problems under constitutional law. What is the rational basis for treating college and university students differently?
16
The standard appled is the same standard used in civil court cases--because colleges do not imprison people. They have a duty, however, to decide if an accused rapist should remain on campus, potentially endangering other students.
4
Schools should distribute, or allow to be downloaded, consent forms for students. Both parties must sign, with the calendar date/ time, before engaging in sexual contact. No signed forms, no consent presumed.
No, not ironclad proof, but damn close. Would certainly cut down on cases of " questionable " consent. Right?????
No, not ironclad proof, but damn close. Would certainly cut down on cases of " questionable " consent. Right?????
8
It seems to me the best practice regarding allegations of sexual assault involving college students (or anyone else) is for the victim to seek out medical treatment as soon as possible, and to make the report of sexual assault to hospital authorities and regular law enforcement before notifying the university. Let those who are trained to handle sexual assault cases take the lead in caring for the victim, and investigating the allegations.
All victims of crimes should be taught this hard fact - when a case is prosecuted in criminal court, the prosecuting attorney represents the state, not the victim. Ideally, victims of crimes would have their own attorneys whose job would be to look out for the best interests of the victim.
The state's attorney has no duty to the victim; that state's attorney is not the victim's attorney. S/he represents the state's interest in prosecuting the case; not protecting the victim's interests.
All victims of crimes should be taught this hard fact - when a case is prosecuted in criminal court, the prosecuting attorney represents the state, not the victim. Ideally, victims of crimes would have their own attorneys whose job would be to look out for the best interests of the victim.
The state's attorney has no duty to the victim; that state's attorney is not the victim's attorney. S/he represents the state's interest in prosecuting the case; not protecting the victim's interests.
9
That may be true on principle, but when have you seen a prosecutor prosecute a plaintiff (instead of the defendant)?
College campuses deal with all accusations of illegal student behavior through their conduct systems. It's not unique to sexual assault. Students who are arrested for drug sales or possession, fighting, public intoxication, DUI, or manslaughter may find that their cases are dismissed in court but that the campus system finds them culpable based on a preponderance of evidence standard. The results can be probation, suspension or expulsion. Exempting sexual assault from this process or demanding that responsibility for sexual assault meet a higher standard of evidence before college sanctions are imposed would thus favor those accused of sexual assault over those accused of other crimes. My son was stopped for speeding, the police searched his car without probable cause and found a pipe with marijuana residue. In court, the judge dismissed the case against him. On campus, he was found responsible for violating the code of conduct. He was put on probation and required to complete 30 hours of community service. The change in conduct standing Prevented him from transferring the next semester. When he applied to graduate school he had to answer yes to the application question about discipline action. He suffered a lot for a stupid mistake that many make. Had he not been a student there would have been no consequences. But, by choosing to be a student, he agreed to follow the campus code and accept the consequences of violating them.
16
The consequences of rape are so hard on those poor rapists. The white upper middle class ones, that is. Sickened.
21
The article concerns the reliability of the results of the inquiry. Close minded comments as to this concern proves the point.
8
Campuses have rape policies.
Do they have murder policies?
Both are very serious crimes. Both are illegal in every state, with heavy penalties. Both occur on campuses.
Our criminal justice system has evolved over centuries to punish the guilty and exonerate the innocent. It's not perfect, but it has been the best human ingenuity can devise, after generations of trial and error. No one can do better trying to invent a new system from scratch, without the possibility of serious punishment for the guilty (colleges don't have their own private prisons).
This issue is often discussed from the point of view of the innocent accused, denied a fair chance to defend themselves. Equally important are the rape victims, whose rapists go free, as colleges obstruct justice by bullying the victims into not filing a criminal complaint.
Do they have murder policies?
Both are very serious crimes. Both are illegal in every state, with heavy penalties. Both occur on campuses.
Our criminal justice system has evolved over centuries to punish the guilty and exonerate the innocent. It's not perfect, but it has been the best human ingenuity can devise, after generations of trial and error. No one can do better trying to invent a new system from scratch, without the possibility of serious punishment for the guilty (colleges don't have their own private prisons).
This issue is often discussed from the point of view of the innocent accused, denied a fair chance to defend themselves. Equally important are the rape victims, whose rapists go free, as colleges obstruct justice by bullying the victims into not filing a criminal complaint.
8
Generations of women have been forced to endure shame, blame, and dismissal. Attempting to right ones life following such an ordeal with little support has derailed many plans and lead to substance abuse, suicide and crippling depression. The tables are turning and the outrage surfacing after a few scant years of outspoken young women demanding they be taken seriously points to the misogyny rampant in our culture. Yes, raping a woman can ruin a life. Holding up a handful of questionable cases as a system gone awry is a fool's errand. The system has been stacked against women forever. Nice, smart boys do bad things. They do not get a pass because it will ruin their plans.
93
How does injustice solve injustice? False accusations of rape are to uncommon. The FBI crime index lists sexual assault as 8% while most other crimes index at 2%. The FBI Standard is that the allegation be proven false to be included on the list, so cases of insufficient evidence, etc. are not included in that index rate. To deny that false allegations of rape are a problem is every bit as damaging and sexist as denying that sexual assault is a problem. This is why courts, not colleges and politics, needs to be what is adjudicated here. No system is perfect, but any system or anyone who thinks that either sexual assault or false allegations of sexual assault are not very real problems is definitely not part of the solution.
Making an innocent man endure the shame and stigma of a rapist doesn't actually help rape victims.
Making an innocent man endure the shame and stigma of a rapist doesn't actually help rape victims.
3
You appear to be unaware that taking an accuser seriously, which quite obviously should happen, is a different matter from the standard of proof that should apply when investigating the issue.
Note that it is the standard of proof that this article is actually about.
Note that it is the standard of proof that this article is actually about.
Smart boys do bad things—and vindictive girls do, too. If a so-called victim's case crumbles, she should do jail time, considering what the mere whiff of accusation subjects the "aggressor" to.
2
Wow, just wow. Has it not occurred to anyone that Title IX protection for sexual assault survivors is in place because, oh I don't know, it's repugnant to ask them to sit in class--a class they pay thousands for, by the way--with their attackers?
28
DeVos like Trump and others on his cabinet, consider overturning anything and everything established by Obama to be their primary job. Lack of original thought on their own makes it an easy road to take. As for appointing Ms. Jackson, clearly, Ms. DeVos did not search long or hard for a competent Education attorney. But why bother with that when returning political favors is what "draining the swamp" is all about.
11
Have there been miscarriages of justice in cases of campus sexual assault? Yes. Do I trust Betsy Devos to fix things? No.
24
The real responsible person is Candice Jackson. I guess you won't trust her either.
1
Last time I checked, in America you are innocent until proven guilty. The pendulum swung too far under the Obama administration toward the assumption of guilty. I agree with the re-look under De Vos. Also, why is the Department of Education even involved? If something is being investigated as a crime, it should be investigated by professional law enforcement authorities who know what they are doing, not a bunch of amateurs from higher education.
23
Or inexperienced appointees like Betsy DeVos.
11
My daughter will be a college student in a few short weeks.
My husband and I, having already sent a son off to college, have done our best to prepare her for the party scene, since almost all campus rapes involve a young woman too inebriated to protect herself.
With our son, our goal was to make him aware that a drunk/drugged girl cannot give consent even if she is stripping herself naked in front of him.
With our daughter, our goal is to protect her from being raped.
We have both, separately, tried to make her aware of the consequences of being so drunk that she cannot defend herself or walk away.
My husband and I believe this adage: Prepare the traveller, not the road.
We've made it clear to our daughter that her safety is her responsibility--not the college's.
Girls must get proactive. No amount of after-the-fact "justice" can heal the scars of being raped. Title IX and Betsy DeVos are irrelevant to us--too little, too late. Let's start preventing campus rapes instead.
My husband and I, having already sent a son off to college, have done our best to prepare her for the party scene, since almost all campus rapes involve a young woman too inebriated to protect herself.
With our son, our goal was to make him aware that a drunk/drugged girl cannot give consent even if she is stripping herself naked in front of him.
With our daughter, our goal is to protect her from being raped.
We have both, separately, tried to make her aware of the consequences of being so drunk that she cannot defend herself or walk away.
My husband and I believe this adage: Prepare the traveller, not the road.
We've made it clear to our daughter that her safety is her responsibility--not the college's.
Girls must get proactive. No amount of after-the-fact "justice" can heal the scars of being raped. Title IX and Betsy DeVos are irrelevant to us--too little, too late. Let's start preventing campus rapes instead.
47
Extremely well-said. Sounds like some great parenting. Good luck to you and your young adult kids.
2
What happens when a sober daughter able to protect herself goes to one of these parties and is sexually assaulted by half the football team?
Her fault for not bulking up more at the gym to fight them off? Maybe she should attend a college where students are permitted to carry guns to defend herself.
Sounds like a blame-the-victim mentality to me.
"Well dear, how short was your skirt that night?"
Her fault for not bulking up more at the gym to fight them off? Maybe she should attend a college where students are permitted to carry guns to defend herself.
Sounds like a blame-the-victim mentality to me.
"Well dear, how short was your skirt that night?"
12
A very unlikely scenario. In such situations the female is almost always inebriated.
I have to wonder if these families of accused sons even consider the possibility that their child is indeed guilty of the sexual assault or misconduct. A lot of this just feels like rape apologisim :/
25
At college today girls are taught that awkward sex is rape, regret is rape, break up sex is rape and etc. Title IX allows false survivors to flourish..all for the sake of money. Title IX denies every single right to the accused, and allows every single right to the accuser. Until the system is fair to both sides, a Title IX accusation will forever be a false one.
13
Until you walk in my shoes as a mom that has experienced Title IX at its worst, a school that has access to exculpatory evidence that my son did not do what his accuser claimed, and consider it immaterial. Biasd and incomplete investigations are devistating and destructive.
20
Has any parent of an alleged victim ever considered her child was a liar? Gone girl
1
This is like the military conducting rape investigations, the senior NCO or officer is always right and the reputation of the military must not suffer. There is NO justice in the UCMJ. With Universities and colleges their sports programs, fraternities, and reputations put any justice in the back seat. Of course our criminal justice system is also a nightmare for rape victims. Only rapists win.
9
A great many of these comments are driven by fear and anger. The desire to punish is as old as the Bible; that said no civilized society (or a college) should mete out punishments solely based on hearsay. It is troubling that no one has mentioned between 8% and 15% of rape allegations are proven to be either false or driven by dishonest reporting by the victim according to the FBI's yearbook. While the desire to punish men is strong, I am not hearing anything about punishing women who were dishonest. Remember Columbia University, the Duke University lacrosse team, and the U.Va/Rolling Stone scandal.
15
Between 8% and 15% of rape allegations are proven to be wrong. Yes, but how man of those accused rapists are convicted or punished? Probably none. And what about the 0tyer 85% to 92%? Does anything happen to those offenders? Looks to me like an awful lot of rape allegations cannot be proven wrong. How many are convicted? Uncommon Wisdom seems to show that few accused rapists can be shown to be innocent.
5
The testimony of a woman that she has been raped is NOT hearsay. It is direct witness evidence. In a court, it is the role of the jury to determine the veracity of the witness testimony. No reason an administrative body at a college cannot fulfill the same role.
5
Only 20% of rapes are by a total stranger. Police are not interested in investigating acquaintance rape because of the he said-she said aspect of it makes it difficult to convict.
THAT is why the Obama administration wanted to get the college more involved.
THAT is why the Obama administration wanted to get the college more involved.
6
Somewhere along the way, probably under pressure from the fringes, we have lost the concepts of "innocent until proven guilty" and "beyond a reasonable doubt". Political and politically correct university administrators and faculty are the least qualified to shepherd these important concepts of our democracy and judicial system.
20
Something as serious as rape should treated by the college or university by the same standard that somebody outside the academic institution would. The accusing victim deserves it as well as the accused. Any process that does not achieve the same level of integrity and is less deliberative than the rest of us is not served well.
Let the punishment fit the crime when it is legitimate, too. No more passes like the Stanford swimmer...
Let the punishment fit the crime when it is legitimate, too. No more passes like the Stanford swimmer...
12
The Stanford swimmer went through the police/court system. If the Stanford swimmer went through the Title IX process he would not be a registered sex offender. This is exactly why Title IX offers no justice for either side, and why trained police should be handling all accusations of assault...not an educational institution.
6
The courts and police would also take into account the responsibility of Jane Doe (no relation to the commenter) in allowing alcohol to undermine judgment.
It says a great deal about a person when they are perceived as being the go to person for people accused of rape.
9
"That’s haunting" says Jackson about the hardships of those accused (or convicted!) of rape?
What about the actual VICTIMS of rape?
Where's the sympathy for THEM? And their nightmare lives?
And then the jaw-dropping (simply faux statistics) statement:
“...the accusations — 90 percent of them — fall into the category of ‘we were both drunk."
Factually inaccurate and, again, showing a callous indifference to crime victims and victims of sexual assault.
What about the actual VICTIMS of rape?
Where's the sympathy for THEM? And their nightmare lives?
And then the jaw-dropping (simply faux statistics) statement:
“...the accusations — 90 percent of them — fall into the category of ‘we were both drunk."
Factually inaccurate and, again, showing a callous indifference to crime victims and victims of sexual assault.
20
You want to know what is factual incorrect..The lie of 1 in 5. Feast your eyes on the Bureau of Justice rape statistics..that's where true facts are. 'The rate of rape and sexual assault was 1.2 times higher for nonstudents (7.6 per 1,000) than for students (6.1 per 1,000).' https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5176
7
Amanda, the 1 in 5 stat was for sexual assault, not just rape. And many of those assaults go unreported.
4
I am not a Trump fan. However, I agree with Betsy DeVos on the inherent unfairness of the campus kangaroo courts (hearing boards) when it comes to sexual assault and rape. The solution is simple. Treat campus sexual assaults as crimes not civil matters. College officials should be mandated to report all sexual assault, rape, harassment or abuse incidents on campus to the municipal or state police. All campus judicial proceedings should be bound by the decisions of the criminal courts. Students do not lose their Constitutional rights when they become a college student.
27
Disgusting that those accused of rape are getting any sort of lenience from the government with regards to the schools. It goes to show how the university- the single bastion of real culture (as opposed to guns and football), philosophy (an actual discussion of patriarchy and capitalism), critical thought (versus Faux News propaganda) and modern (as opposed to fundamentalist/religious) values in American society- can be chipped away by an administration with its values set in the Middle Ages and on reality TV. We need to fight to preserve the "campus bubble!"
8
Get a Constitutional Amendment that people are guilty until they prove themselves innocent if you want to equate accusation with guilt.
11
Fighting the "campus bubble" is the whole point -- why should there be a mechanism for investigating and prosecuting rape that is available to college students that is not available for everyone else. If the criminal justice system is adequate to protect young women working at Walmart, it's adequate to protect college women as well. If it's NOT adequate for either of these two classes of women, then we need to fix the system for EVERYONE, not create a special entity for college women only. That's two-tier justice, also known as INJUSTICE.
6
I'VE HAD IT UP TO HERE. Yesterday, I spent SIX HOURS in a seedy behavioral/addiction treatment center here in Floriduh, one of, if not THE lowest rated states for MH care and facilities. My daughter was sexually abused as a child. She still did well....until she fell apart. She went through a harsh divorce, let her ex take her children, and proceeded to drink herself to death for the next seven years. Long, unspeakably painful story made short. My husband finally had to turn our backs. She became homeless, and eventually went through a spiritual awakening and totally quit drinking. Six months in, and now her inner demons are coming to call. GUESS WHAT, THERE IS NO WHERE TO GO. We sat in the waiting room last night, and one woman had been there since 1:30 that afternoon, it was 7:45 p.m. before her family member got help. We walked out. Why bother you good people with this? Because De Voss MAKES ME SICK. If a person says they were sexually assaulted, then treated with utter contempt, YOU RUIN THEM EVEN MORE. I only wish I could sit down with this cretin for a one on one.
23
Many readers have commented that the police need to take cases immediately and that colleges should not lead investigations. While this makes sense in a world where police do their jobs, the reality is that police in college towns, from small to big, often do not take these cases seriously, letting athletes who commit rape go free. I have seen it in my small town with a community college. The basketball coach covered it up, the college did nothing, and the police did nothing. While I don't want young men to be subjected to false allegations, DeVos cannot give cover to the bad decisions of young men, who make the choice to drink and do drugs, and then get themselves into situations with the opposite sex that are deemed rape.
18
If two people are drunk, and have sex, how do you conclude a rape occurred? No doubt it has happened, but it would be difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
One of the reasons rape charges are hard to bring to conviction is that in a he-said/she-said case if equal weight is given to each, the accused wins in our system, because the standard is that the accused must be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
One of the reasons rape charges are hard to bring to conviction is that in a he-said/she-said case if equal weight is given to each, the accused wins in our system, because the standard is that the accused must be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
6
If a coach at the school covered it up and the school "did nothing" then how could it hurt to add in the police? They might still do nothing, but if that's the case I don't imagine the school is fighting them... often local police are likely to be ignoring this stuff at the behest of schools that don't want the bad press. And if that's not the case and the school wanted to help, there would be nothing stopping them advocating for the victim. But having the school do the investigation seems like conflict of interest. Schools have too much invested in the outcome (either to look tough on rape culture to keep funding or to sweep it under the rug to keep the quarterback happy... either way it's a bad combination)
I think all these accusations should go to law enforcement and then, if a school has particularly bad statistics, the title ix violation would practically write itself.
I think all these accusations should go to law enforcement and then, if a school has particularly bad statistics, the title ix violation would practically write itself.
1
Being "drunk" is no excuse for a male having sex with an incapacitated woman. Men are not entitled to have sex with a woman least of all when they are drunk. So called consent while "drunk" (mentally incapacitated) cannot be valid.
Men, grow up, make a date when both of you are sober, consensual sex then is so much better.
Men, grow up, make a date when both of you are sober, consensual sex then is so much better.
14
So what happens when a man is drunk and the woman is not, is it rape too? If it isn't, your position is hypocritical.
6
What if they are both drunk? Just asking.
6
When did that ever happen?
Something is amiss with the presumption that a woman decides when fun becomes a felony. Maybe pre title IX era relationships could be instructive. Were "rapes" endemic? Did courtship need contracts and choreography? How did women survive?
10
I was raped twice. No drinking and no drugs involved either time. The first time I was under age and asleep when I was assaulted.
How did I survive? Not very well. A decade later I finally started to work towards recovery. The experiences did not do well for my relationships, career, or self-confidence, either.
They did not pay attention when I repeatedly said NO. There was NEVER any fun involved as I said NO the first time hands were laid on me. So I wasn't deciding anything about "fun" becoming a felony.
Any more questions?
How did I survive? Not very well. A decade later I finally started to work towards recovery. The experiences did not do well for my relationships, career, or self-confidence, either.
They did not pay attention when I repeatedly said NO. There was NEVER any fun involved as I said NO the first time hands were laid on me. So I wasn't deciding anything about "fun" becoming a felony.
Any more questions?
9
Yes! Rapes were and still are endemic. They were simply not reported or discussed. There is nothing amiss when a woman decides when, where and under what circumstances she wants to engage in sexual activity. If she does not, it is assault, which is a felony. There is no "fun" involved. It's quite simple, really.
7
Umm a lot of rapes in previous generationswent unreported. Women were afraid they would be treated like the criminals instead of the men who violated them. Many sexually assaults still do go unreported because people in positions of power like Betsy DeVos value the feelings of the perpetrator over the lives and safety of women.
7
The commenters (mostly men) who believe police and the criminal justice system do a better job addressing sexual assault are willfully ignorant of the abysmal track record these institutions have addressing the needs of victims, especially female victims of rape.
As an attorney representing sexual assault victims, I have seen the best and worst of the system at work. Although I agree with many that the college justice system leaves much to be desired, there is one main reform which is missing and that is competent legal assistance for both the accused and the accuser.
We also need a model for adjudicating these cases instead of the often woefully inadequate review panels. A hearing I recently attended was presided over by a retired criminal court judge. Others consist of just an administrator making a final decision. Victims are best served by a system that works, where their voices can be heard, with the protection and advice of a trained advocate and impartial decision-maker. Very few, if any, schools currently offer this kind of victim support other than the military.
College sexual assault is a complex and emotionally charged issue. Students enter college after years of inadequate sex education with almost no discussion of consent, a punitive drinking age which fosters unhealthy behavior, and perpetrators who know how to target vulnerable victims.
Society must foster an ethos where victims are supported and perpetrators held accountable at all levels including college.
As an attorney representing sexual assault victims, I have seen the best and worst of the system at work. Although I agree with many that the college justice system leaves much to be desired, there is one main reform which is missing and that is competent legal assistance for both the accused and the accuser.
We also need a model for adjudicating these cases instead of the often woefully inadequate review panels. A hearing I recently attended was presided over by a retired criminal court judge. Others consist of just an administrator making a final decision. Victims are best served by a system that works, where their voices can be heard, with the protection and advice of a trained advocate and impartial decision-maker. Very few, if any, schools currently offer this kind of victim support other than the military.
College sexual assault is a complex and emotionally charged issue. Students enter college after years of inadequate sex education with almost no discussion of consent, a punitive drinking age which fosters unhealthy behavior, and perpetrators who know how to target vulnerable victims.
Society must foster an ethos where victims are supported and perpetrators held accountable at all levels including college.
9
Makes sense. At the risk of being preachy, still much to be said for the teach your children well ethos, especially teach your male children well.
4
Is it your position that is was a mistake for progressives to force the states to raise the drinking age to 21 by threatening to withhold transportation funds?
1
Representation for both the victim and the accused and someone presiding who is trained rather than just some college admin sounds an awful lot like the criminal justice system. It's far from perfect, yes, but it's nonetheless the proper venue for adjudicating crimes.
1
One way for universities to cut down on sexual assaults - crack down on underage alcohol sales / consumption. Sorry to sound like an old fogey but a good number of these incidents involve alcohol.
9
Great idea except that it isn't the universities that sell the alcohol. They have little control over the alcohol sales business.
Rape is illegal in every state of the Union, with penalties of many years imprisonment.
There is no place for amateur kangaroo courts, on campus or elsewhere.
There is no place for amateur kangaroo courts, on campus or elsewhere.
22
Mastering primal urges is part of human evolution. Unfortunate that Secretary DeVos represents an administration that wants to label human evolution as "political correctness" and roll evolution back a century or two.
9
Is Betsy qualified to fix this or any other issues facing our education system?
5
Maybe not, but fortunately Candice seems to be.
1
Colleges are in a defensive crouch since the Obama "Dear Colleague" letter, and out of fear of liability are enforcing their lopsided regulations even against over-persistent texters who the 'victim' deemed were 'unwelcome.' Not exactly sexual assault, but colleges are taking no risks, except with the social and self-esteem of naive college boys who are branded by the 'victims' peers. This is one of the only vestiges of the Obama administration I believe merits repeal, and I'm surprised to find myself aligned with Ms. Devos on this issue.
14
Me too. Although the other changes she is making to the DoE are deeply troubling.
The policy adjustment here, restores a pre Obama status, and is part of MAGA, make American Pre Obama
Mr Obama's policy was implemented by the equivalent of an executive order, one more (hereabouts) bad policy being undone
We seem to have survived many years before the Obama era title 9 and we likely will again
Mr Obama's policy was implemented by the equivalent of an executive order, one more (hereabouts) bad policy being undone
We seem to have survived many years before the Obama era title 9 and we likely will again
2
Title 9 was around for many years before President Obama, as well.
2
That's right, let's go back to the good ole days when women who were raped suffered in silence.
Guess what? They didn't survive it all that well.
Guess what? They didn't survive it all that well.
1
Criminal acts are best handled by law enforcement staff, not college administrators. That would enable proper standards of evidence to be used. Let's say that I live in a property that is "governed" by a homeowner association. If someone is robbed or murdered, should I call the association president? Arrange for a hearing by the homeowner board? Ridiculous.
12
Is there a reason the women can't use the court system to get a restraining order? Those already exist, the burden of proof is much more reasonable (it isn't a conviction, after all) and it would prevent the assailant, I mean, "accused," from going on the campus.
3
The Clery Act reports filed by numerous colleges and universities disclose that even under the kangaroo court rules the Obama Administration imposed, 1 in 5 sexual assault violations are determined to be Unfounded. Unfounded is a bloodless word for false. Yale cited the same 20% innocent outcome statistic as a defense in the Jack Montague suit.
One in 5 young men accused are found innocent in a system that requires them to prove their innocence and makes every effort to find them guilty: No right to legal counsel. No right to a statement of the allegation. No right to discover evidence. No right to an unbiased judge. No right to question the accuser. Guilt and permanent denial of higher education based on a 50% plus a feather standard. Under those rules, the true number of innocents who are punished is almost certainly more than the 20% found innocent.
Even Know Your IX now admits the system needs serious reform.
One in 5 young men accused are found innocent in a system that requires them to prove their innocence and makes every effort to find them guilty: No right to legal counsel. No right to a statement of the allegation. No right to discover evidence. No right to an unbiased judge. No right to question the accuser. Guilt and permanent denial of higher education based on a 50% plus a feather standard. Under those rules, the true number of innocents who are punished is almost certainly more than the 20% found innocent.
Even Know Your IX now admits the system needs serious reform.
9
Colleges are institutions of learning not criminal justice. During undergrad at a huge Big Ten school, I watched the ineptitude of faculty/administrators trying to manage basic behavioral issues with suboptimal results let alone rape cases. I agree sexual predators should be severely punished by the courts. As a woman I take offense at those who refuse to acknowledge the poor judgement and party culture of college life helps foster these crimes. While my friends and I hit the books for our honors degrees and grad school, we watched girl after girl weekend after weekend get amazingly drunk and with horror see them laugh over it and the compromising sexual situations that arose from it. Do not blame victims but stop demeaning women by acting as if we should not or cannot contribute efforts towards self protection. Drop the idea that young adults are "entitled" to be in college, the notion that college means partying and some voyage of exploration that focuses on gratification and pulverize the thought that a woman is unable to use her cerebral cortex to comprehend that alcohol plus a dark room at 3am with equally drunk men is a potential set up for mayhem. Let's reinstate college to its rightful place in our culture: the privileged period in our lives where we learn how to improve ourselves so we can do good for both ourselves and others by the knowledge we've gained. Life isn't a beer soaked party. College shouldn't be either.
54
By the time a sexual assault occurs the damage has already been done and we're discussing what are really ineffective means of achieving 'justice'. What we really ought to be doing is finding ways to minimize the number of these occurrences. I'll let some progressive talk about education. I think maybe more women ought to be armed. That might cause some males to have second thoughts before proceeding. And as other folks have pointed out, cutting down on the free time students have to engage in self-destructive behavior may not be such a bad idea, too.
2
Advising women to be armed might sound like a good idea for dissuading males in rout in principle, but I don't think it woukd be a mive in rye right direction at all. It's a recipe for slippery decisions with lethal consequences. Unless you had a broader definition of "arming" in mind, which woukd include Mace and similar non-lethal, purely -and effectively - dissuasive weapons, You should probably think about other solutions to offer women facing this constant threat of sexual aggressions.
1
I am a psychologist working in research and clinical practice in a specialty PTSD clinic which frequently sees college student survivors of sexual assault.
Many comments here express the commonly held belief that the rate of false accusations is much higher than it is. I would ask: what is the basis of this? What research can you point to to support these beliefs? The issue with relying on high profile "false positive" cases such as those reported here is that they distort the prevalence of such false positives in college campuses.
I would encourage journalists to please consult experts and research to properly contextualize the discussion in facts and evidence. The National Center for PTSD is an excellent resource. The positions of experts in this area diverge greatly from the belief that false accusations are common. While estimates of the prevalence of sexual assault on college campuses vary across studies, we have learned a great deal from survey research not only on college students but also on perpetrators and college men, as well as our clinical experience.
To summarize, sexual assault as defined by experts is common on campuses, and while false reports occur, they are far less common than "true" cases. There is a disincentive for most survivors to report. Obama era policies drew heavily on such research. To categorize college sexual assault accusations as "messy drunken sex" is both inaccurate and damaging to survivors, perpetuating these myths.
Many comments here express the commonly held belief that the rate of false accusations is much higher than it is. I would ask: what is the basis of this? What research can you point to to support these beliefs? The issue with relying on high profile "false positive" cases such as those reported here is that they distort the prevalence of such false positives in college campuses.
I would encourage journalists to please consult experts and research to properly contextualize the discussion in facts and evidence. The National Center for PTSD is an excellent resource. The positions of experts in this area diverge greatly from the belief that false accusations are common. While estimates of the prevalence of sexual assault on college campuses vary across studies, we have learned a great deal from survey research not only on college students but also on perpetrators and college men, as well as our clinical experience.
To summarize, sexual assault as defined by experts is common on campuses, and while false reports occur, they are far less common than "true" cases. There is a disincentive for most survivors to report. Obama era policies drew heavily on such research. To categorize college sexual assault accusations as "messy drunken sex" is both inaccurate and damaging to survivors, perpetuating these myths.
38
Do you know what it takes to get an instance of reporting to be captured as a false accusation? An accuser can commit perjury on a witness stand, destroy evidence, lie on a police report, and convince others to lie for her. All this done in a court of law. Was this accuser ever punished for her crimes? Were charges ever pressed against her? No. A DA would have to be willing to first press charges, and secondly you have to prove malice and that she did it on purpose. So yes, there are false accusations that are not included in the DOJ's 2-8%.
Just like those that have been assaulted get frustrated that their assaulter is not criminally punished, it is just as frustrating for someone that has witnessed a false accuser get away with lies and deceit and getting to keep her "victim" status at her college.
Just like those that have been assaulted get frustrated that their assaulter is not criminally punished, it is just as frustrating for someone that has witnessed a false accuser get away with lies and deceit and getting to keep her "victim" status at her college.
4
I don't believe the false accusations are a real issue here, but rather the vagueness of what actually constitutes the consent, especially when alcohol is involved. The situations when an accuser later (sometimes much later) regrets having sex and blames the other party rather than his/her own misjudgement for his/her negative feelings about the encounter.
11
You have zero evidence that proves sexual assault is common on campus. And exhibit no empathy for the falsely accused at Connecticut College, Duke, UVA,William Patterson, The University of Montana , North Dakota and elsewhere. These men have been presumed guilty and had their lives ruined by false accusations.
8
I think commenters aren't thinking things through when they say colleges have no business adjudicating sexual assault on campus. Of course the authorities should be alerted and a criminal investigation done. But this isn't television. Investigations take time, and they don't always result in charges, especially in rape cases.
So what happens when you have a potential predator roaming the campus? Is it not the administration's duty to protect its students and community? How woudl you feel if your daughter/sister was assaulted by someone who had already been accused of a prior assault? University administrations have a necessary role to play.
So what happens when you have a potential predator roaming the campus? Is it not the administration's duty to protect its students and community? How woudl you feel if your daughter/sister was assaulted by someone who had already been accused of a prior assault? University administrations have a necessary role to play.
27
"..they don't always result in charges."
I guess you prefer that ALL accusations result in criminal charges.
I guess you prefer that ALL accusations result in criminal charges.
4
You are correct. But it seems that many colleges do not encourage accusers to file a police report and press charges. Instead, they rely on a system that does not protect the innocent, and lets truly guilty avoid jail time.
You are right that filing a police report does not always result in criminal charges against the accused, but any encounter with criminal justice system is traumatic and expensive enough to serve as a meaningful deterrent.
You are right that filing a police report does not always result in criminal charges against the accused, but any encounter with criminal justice system is traumatic and expensive enough to serve as a meaningful deterrent.
1
Police are trained and take action instantly when a rape accusation is levied, whether by a college student or any other person.
MIckey-mouse college administrators have no business getting involved in criminal matters until after a court of law renders a verdict.
And just because someone is accused of rape, it doesn't mean they are guilty. The accused are presumed innocent until proven, in a court of law, to be guilty.
As for daughters/sisters, my daughter is about to start college as a freshman. I still believe in due process.
MIckey-mouse college administrators have no business getting involved in criminal matters until after a court of law renders a verdict.
And just because someone is accused of rape, it doesn't mean they are guilty. The accused are presumed innocent until proven, in a court of law, to be guilty.
As for daughters/sisters, my daughter is about to start college as a freshman. I still believe in due process.
4
Chaps on campus should take heart for sex robots should be available - before you graduate! -on Amazon for a cost much less than a defense attorney (who gets to sit out in the hall during your hearing) and a ruined reputation.
4
I'm not sure if I'd ever support punishment for any type of sexual assault or domestic violence charge based solely on a he said/she said type accusation and no other evidence of injury, force or threat.
If you wouldn't put someone away for 20 years based on an unsupported rape accusation, why kick them out of college?
If you wouldn't put someone away for 20 years based on an unsupported rape accusation, why kick them out of college?
18
Who says the rape accusations are unsupported?
FYI schools expel students all the time for lesser- charged offenses.
FYI schools expel students all the time for lesser- charged offenses.
10
Who says the rape accusations are supported?
As the mother of a son, I warned him explicitly not to trust EVEN ONE college girl when he went off to college.
Back when I was in college, a rape accusation faced tough scrutiny, which was right and just.
Now, any accuser is automatically believed.
That pendulum has swung too far in the wrong direction. Every accused person, regardless of gender or crime, deserves the presumption of innocence and due process.
As the mother of a son, I warned him explicitly not to trust EVEN ONE college girl when he went off to college.
Back when I was in college, a rape accusation faced tough scrutiny, which was right and just.
Now, any accuser is automatically believed.
That pendulum has swung too far in the wrong direction. Every accused person, regardless of gender or crime, deserves the presumption of innocence and due process.
13
Honeybee, no, back when you were in college rape accusations, and the women who made them were nearly alway viewed as suspect.
It is simply not true that unsupported accusations are automatically believed. Colleges have a duty to protect their students while the slow wheels of justice turn. If you don't approve of a school's code of conduct (which can expel students for even minor infractions) I suggest you not send your child there.
It is simply not true that unsupported accusations are automatically believed. Colleges have a duty to protect their students while the slow wheels of justice turn. If you don't approve of a school's code of conduct (which can expel students for even minor infractions) I suggest you not send your child there.
The rationale for the complainant-friendly guidance in the 2011 Dear Colleague letter is based on false facts. The oft-quoted, but dubious 2 to 8% false accusation rate, which was based on police investigations, doesn’t apply to rates of innocence in college adjudications. Campuses don’t generally share their outcome rates, but Stanford did on May 31: 24% of allegations were thrown out as invalid before ever getting to the investigation stage, and 50% of accused students tried in a hearing were found “not responsible”. Under a preponderance standard, that is equivalent to saying the accused was likely to be innocent. In other words, over half of the accusations were false, unfounded, or just too dubious to be investigated or to receive a decision of “responsible.” NCHERM reports rates of 60% (see their 2017 white paper, page 15). And those are under DCL conditions discouraging cross examination and participation by an attorney, and where there are no penalties for false testimony. And what would be the justification for using a low rate of false accusations as a valid rationale to deny due process? Will “Know Your Nine” and SurvJustice fess up to their use of false statistics to justify their support of an unjust system?
20
Perhaps it is time for social mores and values to be upgraded? Men and women MUST exercise more discrimination and sound judgement before initiating any sort of physical intimacy. Endocrine systems must be managed by self-discipline and by more substantial influences..something more than cold showers...how about "hard reality?"
When it comes to intimacy, both people may not tell the truth..exactly. Men as well as women must be held accountable for their actions. So, the most sensible behavior for a man is...."Don't do it."
I don't have all the answers in this brief missive, but from before the onset of puberty, men and women require regular counseling in school and open and candid conversation. They may consider NOT proceeding with intimate behavior before a 24 or 48 hour "get acquainted" or cooling off period...or longer? Hum...no more "one night stands?" An improvement over past behaviors.
Before going to college, my mother gave me sage advice and left it up to me to exercise sensible judgment. Fortunately, I listened and used her judgment to my benefit.
"My son, until you are ready to assume the consequences of making love with a woman, keep your pants on."
It could be just as applicable for women as for men. Good advice 53 years ago and good advice now. I followed her advice and have enjoyed a mature and pleasant relationship with women before and after that time. I have enjoyed a nearly 30 year marriage after a 10 year courtship with my one and only wife.
When it comes to intimacy, both people may not tell the truth..exactly. Men as well as women must be held accountable for their actions. So, the most sensible behavior for a man is...."Don't do it."
I don't have all the answers in this brief missive, but from before the onset of puberty, men and women require regular counseling in school and open and candid conversation. They may consider NOT proceeding with intimate behavior before a 24 or 48 hour "get acquainted" or cooling off period...or longer? Hum...no more "one night stands?" An improvement over past behaviors.
Before going to college, my mother gave me sage advice and left it up to me to exercise sensible judgment. Fortunately, I listened and used her judgment to my benefit.
"My son, until you are ready to assume the consequences of making love with a woman, keep your pants on."
It could be just as applicable for women as for men. Good advice 53 years ago and good advice now. I followed her advice and have enjoyed a mature and pleasant relationship with women before and after that time. I have enjoyed a nearly 30 year marriage after a 10 year courtship with my one and only wife.
5
Students and campus administrators also need to face the fact that young people do stupid things. You can provide advice and counselling and heart-to-heart talks, but as every parent knows your kids are going to have to learn all the lessons you did for themselves, the hard way. Almost all of us had to endure a lot of bad sex before we had any good sex. Your experience is not the norm.
There is a lot of focus on Title IX and the guidance released by the Federal Government in the form of Dear Colleague Letters. There is a lot of talk about kangaroo courts and many readers question why colleges even engage in these investigations. I invite the NY Times and its readers to take a look at VAWA, the Violence Against Women Act. VAWA was reauthorized in 2013. Please examine these regulations. You will find that there is a reason why colleges engage in certain investigative activities in addition to what was mandated under Title IX. I am a little concerned that there is no mention of this whatsoever in this debate or in the article for that matter.
7
I see that it has provisions to give grants to institutions of higher education to create sexual assault prevention and education programs. But I don't see anything that puts the school in charge of investigation or prosecution. Can you elaborate?
2
https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2014-2428...
The PDF is lengthy, but I recommend reading the rule making commentary discussion. The actual regulation you'll find towards the end. Note the requirements for trainings and the hearing process especially. Finally, the Clery Enforcement Division is able to fine educational institutions quite severely for Clery violations. VAWA is part of the Clery Act and compliance is really not optional.
The PDF is lengthy, but I recommend reading the rule making commentary discussion. The actual regulation you'll find towards the end. Note the requirements for trainings and the hearing process especially. Finally, the Clery Enforcement Division is able to fine educational institutions quite severely for Clery violations. VAWA is part of the Clery Act and compliance is really not optional.
1
Colleges and universities are not equipped to competently investigate or fairly adjudicate rape or assault cases, which are the proper province of the police and criminal justice systems.
At my own university, I have seen frivolous title IX claims filed by disappointed job seekers, feuding co-workers, and the like. The system is a real mess and serves no one, except perhaps the extra lawyers employed.
At my own university, I have seen frivolous title IX claims filed by disappointed job seekers, feuding co-workers, and the like. The system is a real mess and serves no one, except perhaps the extra lawyers employed.
15
I don't expect colleges and universities to be babysitters but when students are thrown together in teen years and no rules or regulations set, what do we expect? My daughters first night away at school could have very easily been a nightmare. Four drunk people in her dorm room have sex most the night. So much for her dreams of going to school and being in a nurturing environment. No coed dorms. You want to get drunk,high, have sex? Save your parents money - stay home! We were told she had the problem. I suggested since we were giving them close to $30,000. for the year they better change her living quarters or being in a family of newspaper reporters the school could expect editorials involving the school. They found her a suitable living space. Starting school this way was atrocious. Schools take no responsibility!
9
Candace Jackson said "the court system" does not "weight the system in favor of a finding." She's dead wrong if she's talking about the criminal justice system. Convictions require that all 12 jurors find the defendant guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Evidence which conclusively proves guilt becomes inadmissible if obtained improperly. Defense attorneys are required to take every legal measure at their disposal to get acquittals even when they know the client is guilty. Prosecutors are only supposed to being charges if they are convinced to a moral certainty the accused is guilty. The jurors are instructed by the judge to resolve all doubt in favor of the accused. It's amazing someone in her position would say something so glaringly wrong.
8
She said the opposite of what your comment implies she did. She was referring specifically to the fact that in the judicial system, the benefit of any doubt goes to the accused, and that the burden of proof is on the accuser. She was criticising the campus kangaroo court system explicitly for not adhering to that long-aacepted principle.
1
I'm not a big Trump fan, but kudos to DeVos. If criminal conduct is alleged, anywhere, anytime, law enforcement must be involved to investigate, collect evidence, take statements, etc. Charges against any alleged perpetrator must be predicated on probable cause and indictment by a properly constituted grand jury. In such case, the accused should be tried by a court of competent jurisdiction, afforded proper legal representation and any other constitutional rights to which he or she may be entitled. If and only if the accused is found guilty may the educational institution take action. We are a nation of laws, and the notion of kangaroo courts populated by academics and students is obscene.
113
Educational institutions are not capable of limiting a person's freedom. Only the state, our "nation of laws" can do that. Colleges and universities have the right to expel those who break their codes of conduct.
2
Why should these investigations be different than any others. Surely the local laws, state laws can deal with the investigations and punishments. Now where a school has a police department that is different, and if corruption is getting some off (like say football stars) then and only then should the federal government get involved. That is a justice department issue ,not the education department. In fact title 9 needs to be evaluated and perhaps phased out as a law.
8
“Listening to her talk about walking in and finding him in the middle of trying to kill himself because his life and his future were gone, and he was forever branded a rapist — that’s haunting,” said Ms. Jackson, describing a meeting with the mother of a young man who had been accused of sexual assault three months after his first sexual encounter."
How about the scores of women who have tried and succeeded in ending sir lives after being dragged through the mud for having the temerity to be raped and press charges.
I was once asked in a deposition what I was wearing at the time of the alleged crime. His crime was a DUI. Even if he hadn't had double vision from drinking so much that he blew 2.6 on a breathalyzer, he couldn't see me in the car in front of him. He didn't even see the car I was driving let alone me, so how could he be so aroused that he crashed into my car? And to what end, to strike up a conversation?
Is DeVos inadvertently revealing family secrets hushed up long ago? What explains this empathy for criminals and antipathy for crime victims? A family secret perhaps?
How about the scores of women who have tried and succeeded in ending sir lives after being dragged through the mud for having the temerity to be raped and press charges.
I was once asked in a deposition what I was wearing at the time of the alleged crime. His crime was a DUI. Even if he hadn't had double vision from drinking so much that he blew 2.6 on a breathalyzer, he couldn't see me in the car in front of him. He didn't even see the car I was driving let alone me, so how could he be so aroused that he crashed into my car? And to what end, to strike up a conversation?
Is DeVos inadvertently revealing family secrets hushed up long ago? What explains this empathy for criminals and antipathy for crime victims? A family secret perhaps?
33
First of all why do you need to conflate the two things? Rape is a thing. False accusations are a thing and bother are tragic. Secondly nobody blew a 2.6 nearly every human being would be dead at .80 half of adults at .4 half ingested a lethal dose of alcohol.
11
There can be anguish on both sides. That's why colleges, universities and trade schools should be required to turn any such cases over to the Legal Authorities. Some schools, in the past, have hesitated about bringing unwanted notoriety to the school.
https://thetruthoncommonsense.com
https://thetruthoncommonsense.com
34
And what happens in the interim, while the authorities are investigating, deciding whether to bring charges, etc. and whilst your university may have a predator on campus.
6
My son was turned over to the legal authorities. They could not proceed for lack of information and the case was dropped. Stetson University expelled him anyway under Title IX. It has been devastating. For our whole family. What made it even worse is that I had worked at Stetson for almost twenty years. The way this Dear Colleague has been set up does not allow the accused to defend themselves. For many of these young men and some young women they are tried by a kangaroo court the college has convenied. I am not against women but enough is enough.
29
Mom, it's patently false that the accused cannot defend themselves. They have the same rights in the proceedings as the accusers.
If we believe mothers, virtually no son has ever done wrong. Yet the majority of crime in the world is committed by men.
If we believe mothers, virtually no son has ever done wrong. Yet the majority of crime in the world is committed by men.
6
If you read Missoula, Krakauer's book on this subject, you'll learn that American college students have a huge amount of time to invest in partying, drinking to unconsciousness, having sex, and watching sports. In the review that I wrote for my weblog I wrote "Nobody is raped in the physics lab in Missoula if for no other reason than nobody Krakauer followed took a physics course to begin with."
Stepping back from this I'm surprised that nobody asks (1) Why do colleges run dorms and sponsor fraternities/sororities and thereby take on responsibility for what happens during these parties? Why not run classrooms and labs and concentrate on education per se? (2) Why do Americans invest so much money in parking young people for four years in an environment so undemanding intellectually that they can be drunk every night?
Stepping back from this I'm surprised that nobody asks (1) Why do colleges run dorms and sponsor fraternities/sororities and thereby take on responsibility for what happens during these parties? Why not run classrooms and labs and concentrate on education per se? (2) Why do Americans invest so much money in parking young people for four years in an environment so undemanding intellectually that they can be drunk every night?
49
One of the very few positive things from the new administration. Any system you set up will either convict some innocents or clear some guilty ones. We've long had a consensus that the former is much worse, and it's unclear why that should not apply on campus.
20
And our justice system believes that you are innocent until proven guilty. How about we work on the root causes, too much drinking, too little respect.
6
Maybe Trump should put an end to civil court cases as well, since they use the same preponderance of evidence rules.
3
Until recently, men abusing women have rarely suffered for it. With horrifying levels of sexual abuse in the military, the church, corporations, and universities, do you really think the system is being tilted unfairly rather than finally brought into balance?
12
What's missing from this article is recognition that for decades women in college have been raped, assaulted, "pressured" when too drunk to consent to sexual activity & not believed when they tried to report sexual assault.
No it isn't good that in some cases accused men have been innocent or have been only borderline sexual assailants. But the Obama administration was right to take this seriously.
If the country heard publicly loud & clear what's routinely happened in the lives of women - rape, groping, bullying, being drugged, being pressured in situations where it doesn't seem safe to refuse - this country would spin off its axis. This is an enormous untold story, ongoing for decades at virtually every college & always results in some backlash from the establishment about how 'unfair' this is to men who commit these acts.
Women must be believed & men who bully, assault & rape women must be held accountable. Even in this time of crazy right wing assault on our credibility & safety women are not going to go back. And we will fight to protect young women from what we ourselves had to suffer - in silence or not being believed.
In my life, I have never known a single woman - not one - who did not have some sad, exhausting painful story about sexual violation - usually in her childhood, youth or young adulthood - where someone violated her physical boundaries, refused to stop harming her & afterward walked away with no consequences.
Betsy De Vos is a joke.
No it isn't good that in some cases accused men have been innocent or have been only borderline sexual assailants. But the Obama administration was right to take this seriously.
If the country heard publicly loud & clear what's routinely happened in the lives of women - rape, groping, bullying, being drugged, being pressured in situations where it doesn't seem safe to refuse - this country would spin off its axis. This is an enormous untold story, ongoing for decades at virtually every college & always results in some backlash from the establishment about how 'unfair' this is to men who commit these acts.
Women must be believed & men who bully, assault & rape women must be held accountable. Even in this time of crazy right wing assault on our credibility & safety women are not going to go back. And we will fight to protect young women from what we ourselves had to suffer - in silence or not being believed.
In my life, I have never known a single woman - not one - who did not have some sad, exhausting painful story about sexual violation - usually in her childhood, youth or young adulthood - where someone violated her physical boundaries, refused to stop harming her & afterward walked away with no consequences.
Betsy De Vos is a joke.
40
Every woman a sexual violence or "borders"-violated victim? Really? I just don't believe that.
If a woman is sexually violated the alleged perpetrator should be criminally investigated by the police and prosecutors, not some kangaroo court. Diluted due process serves no one's interests.
In the meantime stop contributing to your alma mater and remove them from your will.
If a woman is sexually violated the alleged perpetrator should be criminally investigated by the police and prosecutors, not some kangaroo court. Diluted due process serves no one's interests.
In the meantime stop contributing to your alma mater and remove them from your will.
8
Liars are not believable by definition regardless of gender.
Nobody "must" be believed.
2
Well, boys will be boys. I remember working in a Pennsylvania mountain resort and had occasion to hear some male employees talking about group sex with a female employee. They all had had sex with her. I asled them why. They said, "Oh, Jessie had it coming to her." "Coming to her, why is that?" "Well, she was alone." Boys will be boys is back.
18
In France??? If that is true we need to eradicate that sort of attitude, and jail those who won't learn.
3
This woman is execrable. What next - re-investigate the child molestation cases of the catholic church, because the priests have been treated so unfairly? What circle of hell do you intend to burn in, Ms. DeVos?
32
Should colleges be investigating murder cases as well?
That's ridiculous and it's just as ridiculous that they should be investigating rape cases. Beyond the competency issue involved, colleges hate the headlines these cases bring so they try to suppress them. Penn State anyone? Baylor?
That's ridiculous and it's just as ridiculous that they should be investigating rape cases. Beyond the competency issue involved, colleges hate the headlines these cases bring so they try to suppress them. Penn State anyone? Baylor?
36
Penn State, Baylor and Stanford are all examples of a rape culture, driven by sports teams objectifying women. It's best to get the schools out of any criminal investigations. Leave it to professional law enforcement who have their own serious challenges getting to the truth in a culture that is overwhelmingly biased in support of the perpetrators. And let's not forget that it's not just men who are the aggressors here. Whatever the real percentages are, there are aggressors of both sexes, and crimes occur with every sexual orientation. Just get it right.
4
Hard to imagine anyone but an ivory tower liberal wanting colleges to adjudicate rape cases & hard to imagine anyone else expecting them to do a good job.
If victims are reluctant to go to the police because they do a bad/insensitive job the solution is to find ways to improve the police. If the Sanitation Department does a poor job of picking up garbage, find ways to improve them. Don't hand the job off to the Department of Motor Vehicles.
Rape cases make for extremely difficult investigations and prosecutions. It's not like catching a burglar or drunk driver. Because of the inherent difficulties police frequently don't get good outcomes. Is it surprising colleges don't do a very good job either.
If victims are reluctant to go to the police because they do a bad/insensitive job the solution is to find ways to improve the police. If the Sanitation Department does a poor job of picking up garbage, find ways to improve them. Don't hand the job off to the Department of Motor Vehicles.
Rape cases make for extremely difficult investigations and prosecutions. It's not like catching a burglar or drunk driver. Because of the inherent difficulties police frequently don't get good outcomes. Is it surprising colleges don't do a very good job either.
4
And just when I thought I had understood, Surrealism.
7
There appears to be a fundamental misunderstanding in many of these comments. College investigations of sexual assault are not in lieu of criminal investigations. Rather, they occur in addition to criminal investigations, if the victim reports the crime to the police. Title IX requires colleges to address sex discrimination and gender based inequality in education. College investigations occur in order to address these concerns and to take disciplinary action against students, where appropriate. These disciplinary actions (suspension, expulsion, etc.) are in addition to whatever legal consequences might follow from a criminal conviction (probation, jail time, etc.). Title IX also employs a preponderance of the evidence standard--the same as is used in civil cases, whereas criminal cases use a beyond a reasonable doubt standard. And in order to protect the rights of the accused, Title IX has more protections in place than are required for other disciplinary proceedings (e.g., plagiarism). There is no logical reason why educational institutions should not protect their learning environment by enforcing a code of conduct among its students. If the accused can be held liable for civil damages (using the preponderance of the evidence standard) for rape in the courts, why shouldn't colleges also be allowed to expel such students using the same evidentiary standard? This enhances, rather than detracts from, sexual assault enforcement.
30
So what other things should this apply to? DUI, drug use, what???
2
You should have been reading the columns of Asche Schow in the Washington Examiner and elsewhere. Dozens of colleges are now the hook for hundreds of millions of dollars in legal settlements for blatantly unfair proceedings. Obama's whole Title IX "expansion" (way beyond the original intent) was driven by extreme feminist ideology that held all men were potential rapists until proven innocent. The college kangaroo courts often shielded the identities of accusers, denied the accused any semblance of due process, and committed other egregious violations.
4
Unlike the kangaroo courts in schools, no civil court will give what is effectively a restraining order with accompanying 45 year fine of half the accused's income. The unpleasant reality is that in these "proceedings", many schools treat the accused as guilty, with no right to a lawyer or to call witnesses. They then effectively banish the accused, not just from that school, but from any credible institution of higher learning.
The Ohio state Med school case is one of the more Gregarious examples. A young man has been denied the opportunity for over $5m of lifetime ear is, but wasn't even allowed to call any witnesses to the proceedings, and our court system, deemed that legal.
The Ohio state Med school case is one of the more Gregarious examples. A young man has been denied the opportunity for over $5m of lifetime ear is, but wasn't even allowed to call any witnesses to the proceedings, and our court system, deemed that legal.
4
Perhaps if binge drinking was not such a part of the college culture, we would not be having this discussion.
17
Perhaps is men were brought up with the etic that having sex with anyone who has not definitely said :yes" is wrong, we wouldn't be having this discussion.. To have sex with a person too drunk to consent is rape, which is a crime.
5
The most comprehensive, objective article on campus rape policies under Title IX is probably Emily Yoffe's in Slate:
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/12/college_rape_camp...
The College Rape Overcorrection
Sexual assault on campus is a serious problem. But efforts to protect women from a putative epidemic of violence have led to misguided policies that infringe on the civil rights of men.
By Emily Yoffe
Dec. 7 2014 11:53 PM
Yoffee reviewed the statistics on campus rape, some of which find a prevalence of under 2%. She read the court documents in cases about the rights of the accused in campus hearings. And she argued that one of the biggest factors in campus rape is drinking alcohol, but virtually none of the anti-rape programs address drinking.
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/12/college_rape_camp...
The College Rape Overcorrection
Sexual assault on campus is a serious problem. But efforts to protect women from a putative epidemic of violence have led to misguided policies that infringe on the civil rights of men.
By Emily Yoffe
Dec. 7 2014 11:53 PM
Yoffee reviewed the statistics on campus rape, some of which find a prevalence of under 2%. She read the court documents in cases about the rights of the accused in campus hearings. And she argued that one of the biggest factors in campus rape is drinking alcohol, but virtually none of the anti-rape programs address drinking.
21
It is always dangerous when "due process" is denied to someone in order to further a political agenda.
If you're a victim of a crime then report it to the police.
If the school wants to have some type of administrative disciplinary system to address misbehavior by its students then no one has a problem with that.
What folks have a problem with is when the police can find no evidence or insufficient evidence of a crime to bring charges and the school steps in to make a political statement by placing one students rights above another students.
The schools need to understand that once the police have declined to act, if indeed the police have even been called then any action from that point is problematic for both parties because essentially in almost all of these cases it comes down to placing more value on the alleged victims version of facts vs the alleged perpetrators version.
Add to that the fact that frequently both parties have consumed alcohol in often times copious amounts and or have used drugs which do nothing to enhance the accuracy of either sides recall of events and you're eventually going to have to come to the conclusion that you may never know with any reasonable semblance of certainty as to what actually transpired.
No one wants to see a sexual predator go free or be the President of the United States but any system which does not extend equal protections to both parties is an absolute recipe for abuse in furtherance of political goals
If you're a victim of a crime then report it to the police.
If the school wants to have some type of administrative disciplinary system to address misbehavior by its students then no one has a problem with that.
What folks have a problem with is when the police can find no evidence or insufficient evidence of a crime to bring charges and the school steps in to make a political statement by placing one students rights above another students.
The schools need to understand that once the police have declined to act, if indeed the police have even been called then any action from that point is problematic for both parties because essentially in almost all of these cases it comes down to placing more value on the alleged victims version of facts vs the alleged perpetrators version.
Add to that the fact that frequently both parties have consumed alcohol in often times copious amounts and or have used drugs which do nothing to enhance the accuracy of either sides recall of events and you're eventually going to have to come to the conclusion that you may never know with any reasonable semblance of certainty as to what actually transpired.
No one wants to see a sexual predator go free or be the President of the United States but any system which does not extend equal protections to both parties is an absolute recipe for abuse in furtherance of political goals
26
But the code of conduct for students is basically a contract that can have much stricter standards of behavior than the official laws. Colleges can and should have their own process, the feds don't need to be involved.
2
I've come across this analogy for the Title IX process on campus:
Inebriated female decides to drive her car. Inebriated male decides to drive his car. They crash their vehicles into each other however the male is assigned blame for the collision.
I agree with your take. Colleges are woefully ill-equipped to handle these issues. I'd prefer that assaults be referred to the police for investigation just as any crime should. Educators should educate - police should enforce the law.
Inebriated female decides to drive her car. Inebriated male decides to drive his car. They crash their vehicles into each other however the male is assigned blame for the collision.
I agree with your take. Colleges are woefully ill-equipped to handle these issues. I'd prefer that assaults be referred to the police for investigation just as any crime should. Educators should educate - police should enforce the law.
7
I am an attorney that has represented the accused in campus sexual misconduct proceedings. The change in campus procedures resulting from the 2011 "Dear Colleague" letter have severely limited the due process rights of the accused, who no longer have the right to cross-examine witnesses, call their own witnesses, or even testify on their own behalf. The fact finding is left up to biased Title IX administrators who present the evidence to hearing boards that they hired and trained.
The proceedings are a "Kangaroo Court" where the accusation is tantamount to a conviction that can brand young students, almost always boys, as "rapists" that are forever foreclosed from obtaining college degrees or pursuing graduate studies. Many of these accusations involve substance abuse by both parties, and the lack of consent is not obvious.
At most universities, if a student were accused of stealing from another student or assaulting another student of the same sex, the accused student would have the right to a participating attorney, the right to cross examine witnesses, and to subpoena persons to a disciplinary hearing, where his involvement would be decided by clear and convincing evidence. Why that same student accused of rape or sexual misconduct is given none of those rights, when the stakes are significantly higher, makes no sense at all.
The proceedings are a "Kangaroo Court" where the accusation is tantamount to a conviction that can brand young students, almost always boys, as "rapists" that are forever foreclosed from obtaining college degrees or pursuing graduate studies. Many of these accusations involve substance abuse by both parties, and the lack of consent is not obvious.
At most universities, if a student were accused of stealing from another student or assaulting another student of the same sex, the accused student would have the right to a participating attorney, the right to cross examine witnesses, and to subpoena persons to a disciplinary hearing, where his involvement would be decided by clear and convincing evidence. Why that same student accused of rape or sexual misconduct is given none of those rights, when the stakes are significantly higher, makes no sense at all.
51
For what it's worth, if you lose the middle paragraph, I'm with you.
"90 percent of them — fall into the category of ‘we were both drunk,’ ‘we broke up, and six months later I found myself under a Title IX investigation because she just decided that our last sleeping together was not quite right"
What an irresponsible and callous way to describe the reports of thousands of victims of sexual assault. What a factually inaccurate manner of characterizing the experiences of children and young adults. Ms. Jackson is casually perpetuating rape myths that campus activists have spent years slowly attempting to dispel. As a recent survivor of campus sexual assault myself I am upset and dismayed by these comments. I believe they show a blatant disregard for the facts of this issue, for the experiences of survivors and for the realities of campus processes. I am angry and I feel betrayed by a department that I believed was charged with protecting my right to an education. I am not, however, scared. I know that I am not alone. I know that we have power in sheer numbers because, unfortunately, students continue to become victims and then survivors who find their voice. We will not be silent and we will not allow our universities to turn back.
What an irresponsible and callous way to describe the reports of thousands of victims of sexual assault. What a factually inaccurate manner of characterizing the experiences of children and young adults. Ms. Jackson is casually perpetuating rape myths that campus activists have spent years slowly attempting to dispel. As a recent survivor of campus sexual assault myself I am upset and dismayed by these comments. I believe they show a blatant disregard for the facts of this issue, for the experiences of survivors and for the realities of campus processes. I am angry and I feel betrayed by a department that I believed was charged with protecting my right to an education. I am not, however, scared. I know that I am not alone. I know that we have power in sheer numbers because, unfortunately, students continue to become victims and then survivors who find their voice. We will not be silent and we will not allow our universities to turn back.
17
What do you do with the repeat accusers? There are those that abuse the system and use it as a weapon to get back at boys they dated. How about the jealous ex-girl friends that 2 years after a breaking up with their boyfriend, they just now remember there was this one time, but can't remember where or when. In real life and real assault, it is not something you ever forget, it will replay over and over in your mind.
Repeat accusers should face additional scrutiny and be required to hand out cards that say "Caution. If you date me and pisss me off, I will ruin your life" to every man they interact with.
Repeat accusers should face additional scrutiny and be required to hand out cards that say "Caution. If you date me and pisss me off, I will ruin your life" to every man they interact with.
1
College and universities need to step aside when it comes to accusations of a criminal nature. The conflict of interest is reason enough: an IHE's focus, while not the only one, will be what is best for its reputation. Even as campus personnel endeavor to be fair and impartial, the line of protecting the brand is drawn heavy and large.
9
As a college professor for 28 years and mother of a college student-- we need consistency. All accusations should be investigated by trained law enforcement and colleges and universities should provide additional, appropriate counseling and support to the accusers and the accused. The days of higher education institutions trying to hide the problem or dismiss complaints must end. There must be a fair and protective approach to the situation and there are several models being used in various states at various institutions that have broken new ground on this issue. In addition, colleges and universities need to make more of an effort to educate and socialize students about the dangers of excessive drinking and the dangers of drug use in these uncontrolled environments. Students need to learn discretion and have a "plan" for circumstances that might arise. We must work together to protect our young treasure and help them make better decisions and, hopefully, prevent the situations that lead to the tragic incidents that have occurred in the past. We can do better...
26
Rape is a serious crime.
Allegations of rape should be reported to the police and investigated by trained forensic investigators who can obtain physical evidence.
If warranted the case should be prosecuted thru the judicial system where the accused can be represented by counsel who can question witnesses and the accuser.
In this way the rights of both the accused and the accuser are protected.
Many who want these cases handled by the colleges want to use a looser standard of guilt [preponderance of the evidence instead of guilt beyond all reasonable doubt] to make it easier to find a rapist guilty.
Rape is a serious crime but so are murder and armed robbery but we don't use preponderance of the evidence to convict for murder and robbery.
Allegations of rape should be reported to the police and investigated by trained forensic investigators who can obtain physical evidence.
If warranted the case should be prosecuted thru the judicial system where the accused can be represented by counsel who can question witnesses and the accuser.
In this way the rights of both the accused and the accuser are protected.
Many who want these cases handled by the colleges want to use a looser standard of guilt [preponderance of the evidence instead of guilt beyond all reasonable doubt] to make it easier to find a rapist guilty.
Rape is a serious crime but so are murder and armed robbery but we don't use preponderance of the evidence to convict for murder and robbery.
28
But you can and should expel people for conduct that violates the code of conduct but is not criminal. The proof standard can also be less. I don't want anybody graduating from my university who does not respect everyone, who lies no matter their gender, or really gets drunk so they don't know what is going on.
3
The problem with college rape cases is that having sex is not by itself a crime.
The question is was the sex consensual or not.
This is often very hard to determine.
If some one cheats on an exam or plagiarizes or steals or destroys college property the act is definitely wrong.
This is not the case with a sexual encounter.
The question again is whether the encounter was consensual.
Those who want to use preponderance of the evidence want to make it easier to find the accused guilty.
Rape is a serious crime and I am not trying to minimize that but the solution is not to limit the legal rights of the accused.
The question is was the sex consensual or not.
This is often very hard to determine.
If some one cheats on an exam or plagiarizes or steals or destroys college property the act is definitely wrong.
This is not the case with a sexual encounter.
The question again is whether the encounter was consensual.
Those who want to use preponderance of the evidence want to make it easier to find the accused guilty.
Rape is a serious crime and I am not trying to minimize that but the solution is not to limit the legal rights of the accused.
8
Rape is heinous and if it occurs, call the police, let them and the established court system handle it.
Colleges should not be adjudicating these matters. I don't like DeVoss, but in this particular case a major change in policy is needed.
There is a reason 28 members of the Harvard Law School faculty have publicly denounced the rules that went into effect in 2014, stating the Title 9 policy regarding sexual assault throws due process out the window and the whole procedure is wrongly & significantly stacked against the accused.
And one myth that needs debunking is the AAU study. It makes the explosive claim that 1 in 4 college women experiences "sexual assault", with the inference that rape is rampant on campuses. The fact is it is a limited survey, 19% response rate with self-selected responses. It is not generalizable to the college system as a whole.
It's definition of sexual assault included unwanted hugging or touching. It cannot be used to draw universal, valid statistical conclusions about sexual assault, though certain groups continuously try to do just that.
A valid, random survey by the Dept. of Justice over a 15+ year period finds the incidence of rape to be less than 1% on campuses across the country. Any rape is wrong, but that's an accurate indication of the incidence. Anyone who commits rape and is convicted should be jailed, but let our established judicial system handle it. Not college administrators. https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5176
Colleges should not be adjudicating these matters. I don't like DeVoss, but in this particular case a major change in policy is needed.
There is a reason 28 members of the Harvard Law School faculty have publicly denounced the rules that went into effect in 2014, stating the Title 9 policy regarding sexual assault throws due process out the window and the whole procedure is wrongly & significantly stacked against the accused.
And one myth that needs debunking is the AAU study. It makes the explosive claim that 1 in 4 college women experiences "sexual assault", with the inference that rape is rampant on campuses. The fact is it is a limited survey, 19% response rate with self-selected responses. It is not generalizable to the college system as a whole.
It's definition of sexual assault included unwanted hugging or touching. It cannot be used to draw universal, valid statistical conclusions about sexual assault, though certain groups continuously try to do just that.
A valid, random survey by the Dept. of Justice over a 15+ year period finds the incidence of rape to be less than 1% on campuses across the country. Any rape is wrong, but that's an accurate indication of the incidence. Anyone who commits rape and is convicted should be jailed, but let our established judicial system handle it. Not college administrators. https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5176
35
http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a33751/occidental-justice-case/
It's worth reading about this case because it provides an example, in detail, of why there is concern for the rights of accused individuals.
The story ends with a countersuit by the young man, pointing out that he was just as drunk and therefore equally unable to give consent. I was not able to find any further articles about the case and I don't know how the young man's claim was adjudicated.
It's worth reading about this case because it provides an example, in detail, of why there is concern for the rights of accused individuals.
The story ends with a countersuit by the young man, pointing out that he was just as drunk and therefore equally unable to give consent. I was not able to find any further articles about the case and I don't know how the young man's claim was adjudicated.
17
Having colleges investigate and adjudicate crimes makes about as much sense as asking police departments to teach English Literature courses.
59
Yes, in terms of legal stuff - but it often comes down to he said/she said in legal cases, and it can take years for those things to work their way through the legal system. In the meantime, the victim is going to school with her perpetrator - maybe living down the hall from him or in class with him. Can you imagine if someone raped you and you had to see them everyday? I think legal processes are important but college processes have a very important, separate role from legal processes. Colleges sometimes have different standards like preponderance of evidence--this doesn't "throw due process out the window" because it is not a legal process, but again comes back to how hard it is to prove rape in any circumstance - there are rarely witnesses etc. - and tries to correct for that a little.
2
Hothead, can you imagine living with the fear of being guilty if accused, just for being born with the wrong anatomy? Can you imagine living in a world where you will be stripped of your career, without any due process, if you adequately offend the ruling class. That's the reality of these title IX proceedings. Federal courts have upheld the schools right to banish students from higher education without even clear and compelling evidence that a crime was committed.
7
Isn't rape a crime? Aren't all colleges within the jurisdiction of law enforcement? Why wouldn't we let the local police handle this?
38
There is a misconception here that needs some attention. The opinion that "this should be handled by a courts" Is leaving out a large part of the issue. Contrary to popular belief, you don't always get to "press charges" like on TV. If a county prosecutor decides that it's not a case worth fighting - guess what? Too bad for the girl. And guess what? They almost never decide that it's worth prosecuting due to the nature of rape cases. You just don't hear about those cases...because they never actually become cases and it's not worth the embarrassment for the girl to talk about it knowing nothing will ever happen.
So, while in concept, is sounds great to say "this should be handled by the justice system, and if you don't like the justice system, then that's another problem" - it's another problem that *isn't being dealt with AT ALL* - right or wrong, that's why they turn to the Title IX system.
And the bigger issue, is that no one is understanding what they don't understand. If two people are drunk, it's STILL NOT OK TO HAVE SEX IF SHE DOESN'T MAKE IT CLEAR ITS OK. Consent has to be given. Coming up with an excuse to have assumed assumed consent is completely wrong and degrading to a person. This concept, for some reason, is lost on conservatives, as many social issues are.
The example in the comments comparing sexual consent to driving while drunk displays an especially heinous lack of understanding. Shame on you.
So, while in concept, is sounds great to say "this should be handled by the justice system, and if you don't like the justice system, then that's another problem" - it's another problem that *isn't being dealt with AT ALL* - right or wrong, that's why they turn to the Title IX system.
And the bigger issue, is that no one is understanding what they don't understand. If two people are drunk, it's STILL NOT OK TO HAVE SEX IF SHE DOESN'T MAKE IT CLEAR ITS OK. Consent has to be given. Coming up with an excuse to have assumed assumed consent is completely wrong and degrading to a person. This concept, for some reason, is lost on conservatives, as many social issues are.
The example in the comments comparing sexual consent to driving while drunk displays an especially heinous lack of understanding. Shame on you.
41
" If two people are drunk, it's STILL NOT OK TO HAVE SEX IF SHE DOESN'T MAKE IT CLEAR ITS OK"
Why isn't the female also guilty of rape if the male is also drunk so the male can not give consent.
If BOTH are drunk and have sex it is not rape but two people engaging in irresponsible behavior.
Why isn't the female also guilty of rape if the male is also drunk so the male can not give consent.
If BOTH are drunk and have sex it is not rape but two people engaging in irresponsible behavior.
14
When two drunk teenagers in college have sex with each other, the boy (and only the boy) is guilty of a crime if she (and only she) doesn't give explicit consent for sex? That's nothing more than infantilization of women and victimizing men. It's also an insult to victims of actual crimes. If women want to be equal to men, they have to be willing to take equal responsibility for their lives.
I don't want to live in a country where boys have their lives ruined every time a girl regrets having sex. And I don't want to live in a country where legal cases are decided on the premise that "women don't lie." Women lie, they get drunk, they have sex they later regret. No one needs to go to prison or have their careers ruined so that we can maintain the fantasy that young women are both morally superior and far more fragile than young men.
I don't want to live in a country where boys have their lives ruined every time a girl regrets having sex. And I don't want to live in a country where legal cases are decided on the premise that "women don't lie." Women lie, they get drunk, they have sex they later regret. No one needs to go to prison or have their careers ruined so that we can maintain the fantasy that young women are both morally superior and far more fragile than young men.
14
You apparently don't understand as I do, if she is drunk there is no possibility of consent, NONE!!! Now she might not complain but she was not capable of consenting.
3
Let's not forget how many victims of rape have their lives ruined because of rape. Let's not forget how many have ended their lives, or had their mother walk in while they are attempting to. Let's not forget how many have changed career goals after realizing their vulnerability to another assault in their original dream, or those that have left college altogether.
And let's not forget that the majority of these victims suffer in silence, and this silence is maintained by the response to the outcomes of previous victims speaking up.
And let's not forget that the majority of these victims suffer in silence, and this silence is maintained by the response to the outcomes of previous victims speaking up.
40
Thank you for this comment.
Universities have the right to address any matters related to student safety and discipline students as a result of their investigations. Sexual assault is not the only issue that universities address that is also addressed by the criminal justice system. A university can discipline a student that it finds has engaged in other bad acts as a result of its own investigation. There doesn't need to be a finding by a criminal court that an accused student committed a crime beyond a reasonable doubt for a university to punish a student. This is the case with any organization. For example, would anyone claim that HR Departments should be prohibited from investigating claims of harassment and assault? Do you think an employee or member of an organization must be proven by a criminal court beyond a reasonable doubt in order for the organization to discipline that person?
65
Sexual harassment is not a crime, so that's why it doesn't end up in criminal court. Any assault that occurs in a workplace should absolutely be reported to the police. Do not do so is irresponsible.
8
JC - It appears that you didn't read or comprehend my entire comment. Organizations will investigate matters that involve their members, regardless of whether such matters are crimes that local police investigate. That doesn't mean they should not report crimes to the police. However, they also have their own procedures for dealing with bad actors. Do you understand that or are you just so angry because you believe, based on a few media stories, there is some epidemic of young men being expelled due to false rape accusations?
2
When the allegation is a serious criminal offense? Yes. That is why we have a Constitution and Judicial System. Allegations of serious crimes should be taken seriously, investigated seriously, and there must be confidence that result is accurate. Punishing innocent people for serious crimes in the name 'justice' is anything but.
2
I've always been puzzled as to why a college would have a different standard of evidence than the courts or different transparency expectations. Seems as if there is occasionally a punishment just in case the accused is guilty. Never feel like I'm getting the whole story (including and esp. from administrators adjudicators).
10
The difference might be that the schools themselves have too much at stake in wanting the whole thing to be ignored, untrue, or blow over. Combine that with some perpetrators cynical use and abuse of the former lower threshold to intimidate and eventually skate, and the need and eventual genesis becomes more clear.
4
"Never feel like I'm getting the whole story...."
Yes, clearly you're not getting it. The burden of proof used by universities is similar to that used by civil courts, which also address sexual assault. No one is subject to imprisonment by universities, so the burden of proof is different than that used by criminal courts.
Yes, clearly you're not getting it. The burden of proof used by universities is similar to that used by civil courts, which also address sexual assault. No one is subject to imprisonment by universities, so the burden of proof is different than that used by criminal courts.
8
BK, "similar," but "different,"again, unclear. No imprisonment indicates a lower standard, but the repercussions of being "convicted" by the colleges are grave and long-lasting. I think administrative "courts" may have too much invested (literally and figuratively) in the outcome to be charged with such a responsibility.
2
Some here seem to equate an acquittal/exoneration with the notion that the victim made a false accusation. That is simply false. Plenty of cases go to trial (in criminal court) and defendants are acquitted because the prosecution was unable to meet its burden of proof, but that does not mean that the victim made up her story of an assault. It's important to differentiate between true false accusations, which are rare - despite what people in this comments section allege, and the inability of one party or the other to prove his/her side of the story.
Also, commenters seem to be concerned only with "forced rape" - whatever that term means to them. But many rapes, especially on college campuses are criminal because they are sexual acts committed on a women who is unable to consent. To those men and women who think this is not true rape, ask yourselves: would you feel it acceptable for someone to force his penis into your body while you were unconscious for whatever reason? Men in particular should think about themselves in that position. Waking up with a stranger's semen in your body when you didn't consent is criminal, period.
Also, commenters seem to be concerned only with "forced rape" - whatever that term means to them. But many rapes, especially on college campuses are criminal because they are sexual acts committed on a women who is unable to consent. To those men and women who think this is not true rape, ask yourselves: would you feel it acceptable for someone to force his penis into your body while you were unconscious for whatever reason? Men in particular should think about themselves in that position. Waking up with a stranger's semen in your body when you didn't consent is criminal, period.
29
The Obama administration’s notorious “Dear Colleague” letter, which, among other things, mandated the “preponderance of the evidence” standard, meaning 50.1% or more of the evidence favors guilt (with up to 49.9% suggesting innocence), is one of the most unjust rules ever promulgated by the Federal government. Both liberals and conservatives have recognized its failings, and urged repeal. It is unfathomable how such a policy could have been imposed by President who is a former professor of constitutional law.
Now, thanks to the election of President Trump and his appointment of Betsy DeVos, necessary revisions to the policy may come. The goal is not to deny the rights of victims, rather, it is to restore balance and justice to the college adjudication process. As the U Va and Duke cases mentioned in the article, as well as many others, demonstrate, not all accusations are true.
As the article notes, in the large majority of cases there is a real villain: alcohol. Thus, there is a way to prevent the great majority of accusations of sexual assault: colleges must severely restrict alcohol consumption on campus, and forbid it for those under 21, as the law requires. Today, both men and women should stay within the law, and even after they turn 21, avoid inebriation. This is not “blame the victim”; this is common sense.
Now, thanks to the election of President Trump and his appointment of Betsy DeVos, necessary revisions to the policy may come. The goal is not to deny the rights of victims, rather, it is to restore balance and justice to the college adjudication process. As the U Va and Duke cases mentioned in the article, as well as many others, demonstrate, not all accusations are true.
As the article notes, in the large majority of cases there is a real villain: alcohol. Thus, there is a way to prevent the great majority of accusations of sexual assault: colleges must severely restrict alcohol consumption on campus, and forbid it for those under 21, as the law requires. Today, both men and women should stay within the law, and even after they turn 21, avoid inebriation. This is not “blame the victim”; this is common sense.
16
I am at a loss as to why this discussion is happening at all. It makes no sense that colleges should have the authority to investigate rape or sexual assault, different from other institutions. If a rape or assault occurs, then the police should be called. We have a whole judicial system to deal with that outside of colleges - what makes them different? (Yes, I know the justice system has its own issues with sexual assault - but the colleges appear to be no better.)
More to the point, why are college students protected from the justice system? So if I'm 18 and in college and commit rape I can work the issue through the college, and maybe get thrown out - but if I'm 18 and commit rape and am not in college I answer to the legal system and a judge?
There's a fundamental failure of equal treatment under law here.
More to the point, why are college students protected from the justice system? So if I'm 18 and in college and commit rape I can work the issue through the college, and maybe get thrown out - but if I'm 18 and commit rape and am not in college I answer to the legal system and a judge?
There's a fundamental failure of equal treatment under law here.
308
Exactly! The university's role should that it secures the crime scene for the police to investigate.
If the police and the DA decline to prosecute or say that there is no case then the university formally tells both parties to stay away from each other and not to create 'lynch mobs'.
If there is a trial then the accused is placed on suspension, which goes for anyone on trial. A conviction or a guilty plea then they are expelled. Innocent or charges dropped then its over. Except the 'stay away from each other'.
If the police and the DA decline to prosecute or say that there is no case then the university formally tells both parties to stay away from each other and not to create 'lynch mobs'.
If there is a trial then the accused is placed on suspension, which goes for anyone on trial. A conviction or a guilty plea then they are expelled. Innocent or charges dropped then its over. Except the 'stay away from each other'.
4
The college investigations occur separately from, and often in addition to, criminal investigations. Of course, there are reasons why a criminal investigation might not occur--e.g., if the victim does not contact police. There are also reasons why no charges are pressed or a conviction does not occur in the police investigation, but there is disciplinary action taken by the college (different standards of proof and/or a college making a disciplinary decision on the basis of violation of its own code of conduct, not merely based upon whether a violation of the law occurred). Colleges primarily conduct these investigations in order to determine whether disciplinary action should be taken against the accused. It is their institutional right to hold their students and community to a particular code of conduct, so long as it is nondiscriminatory, even if that standard differs from, or is more stringent than the legal standard for a criminal conviction.
5
The unequal treatment is that in a court of law guilt has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. According to Obama administration guidelines, a preponderance of evidence (over 50%) is sufficient to find the accused guilty. Now, if you were the accused, which standard would you rather face?
5
Next DeVos proposal: only Virgins and Nuns are POSSIBLY actual victims of rape. All others asked for it, were dressed " wrong " or were unaccompanied in a " bad" area. It's back to the future. And NOT in a good way. It is ridiculous and futile to involve Schools in investigating ANY sexual assault reports. This is a matter for the local police and prosecutors, PEROID. They are the experts, or should be. The schools are only interested in protecting their reputations. An obvious conflict, every single time. Enough.
15
Which often becomes obstruction of justice, as victims are discouraged from going to the police.
3
An estimated 80% of rapes go unreported, on campus and elsewhere. A small fraction of those that are reported might represent a male's biggest fear: she wanted it, and now cries rape. So the system might now shift in favor of that minuscule possibility? It is excruciating for rape victims to come forward, and many college students who do wind up being asked to leave because news of the assault might hurt the school's PR.
The law has always favored white men. In recent years some steps have been taken to rectify that, which now may be undone. Why should we expect more from the trickle-down Neanderthal culture of the sexual-assaulter-in-Chief?
The law has always favored white men. In recent years some steps have been taken to rectify that, which now may be undone. Why should we expect more from the trickle-down Neanderthal culture of the sexual-assaulter-in-Chief?
30
Well, this certainly is no surprise. After all, the predator in chief sexually assaults women and has been accused of rape. It's rather important for Trump's cabinet to get rid of all laws that might "inconvenience" him or his family or his rich friends or corporations who wish to plunder the land, the water, the air, and the oceans. And, isn't it awfully nice of Trump supporters and the GOP to watch this all happen without trying to stop it?
17
Campus rape and cover up is already a national disgrace and DeVos wants to provide more protection for rapists? School abroad is looking better and better...
18
This makes me sick. Devos wants to side on the side of rapists, who as it stands now get away with zero jail time 93% of the time, instead of rape victims/survivors.
The Rolling Stone and Duke thing are thrown out as if that is the usual situation, when by far, as in orders of magnitude more common, is rapists raping without repercussions.
So, I don't get it, why do republicans hate women?
The Rolling Stone and Duke thing are thrown out as if that is the usual situation, when by far, as in orders of magnitude more common, is rapists raping without repercussions.
So, I don't get it, why do republicans hate women?
16
Assuming Republicans do hate women, what is their impetus for change? The majority of women voted FOR Trump and women are partially responsible for the Republican-controlled House and Senate.
Because, they fear them!
About time!
How about some protection for some of these men that have to endure false accusations based of regret not rape......
How about some protection for some of these men that have to endure false accusations based of regret not rape......
19
Do we really want to ciminalise this kind of problem? Far better to let the college sort it oút than the police and prosecutor. When the parties are hailed into court and cross examined ín open court you wíll truly ruin young lives.
"Do we really want to criminalize this kind of problem?" You mean sexual assault? Yes. I would like to criminalize sexual assault committed by legal adults on college campuses.
26
DeVos is clearly led by her paternalistic evangelical "christian" religion, which favors men's rights over women's. Watch as she does as much as she can to promote her warped and twisted agenda on our education system to promote her private "christian" schools.
19
I can only hope we don't regress back to the "boys will be boys" environment.
12
We never really escaped it!
1
To get at the root of the problem of the "rape culture" on college campuses, college administrators need to get to the root cause - the culture of drugs, alcohol, and promiscuity that predominates on campus. Most of the cases reported in the media involved women who have voluntarily drunk and/or drugged themselves into a stupor. Why does no one ask why so many women are doing this?
In an older and better time, being caught with drugs or alcohol or being intoxicated on campus would result in expulsion. There were separate dorms for men and women and curfews. These quaint rules, tossed out in the 1960s, were designed to protect young people from their own recklessness and foolishness. They should be revisited.
In an older and better time, being caught with drugs or alcohol or being intoxicated on campus would result in expulsion. There were separate dorms for men and women and curfews. These quaint rules, tossed out in the 1960s, were designed to protect young people from their own recklessness and foolishness. They should be revisited.
17
Wow, I actually have no meaningful opinion on this particular debate either way, but the level of polarization in the comments section is exceptional for a NYT article! Very interesting.
7
I don't think there is an answer to this problem. Each and every case is singular in its facts. Men are way over-entitled and indeed they rape women. Women are flawed and they, on occasion, will make accusations that are untrue as a way to save face. I generally believe that women do that far less than men might ignore the women's stop signs and pursue sexual activity.
But the difficulty of adjudicating these situations cries out for formal legal processes, staffed by experienced people with no connection to the college. Until that happens, the thumbs on the scales of justice will never stop affecting the fairness of the process.
Men have been falsely accused; women have been raped. Yet we cannot generalize and each case must be tried on its merits by pros.
Finally--alcohol, etc. is the biggest problem, but America will not change its social habits quickly enough to ameliorate this campus problem. No need to wait for that.
But the difficulty of adjudicating these situations cries out for formal legal processes, staffed by experienced people with no connection to the college. Until that happens, the thumbs on the scales of justice will never stop affecting the fairness of the process.
Men have been falsely accused; women have been raped. Yet we cannot generalize and each case must be tried on its merits by pros.
Finally--alcohol, etc. is the biggest problem, but America will not change its social habits quickly enough to ameliorate this campus problem. No need to wait for that.
16
A lot about the complaints of the accused and very little about victims. Who are you?
16
Universities have no business getting involved in a sexual assault case. It is a criminal matter and should be prosecuted as such. And yes, unfortunately “the whole idea that rape is just a drunken encounter gone wrong.” is sometimes (if rarely) correct. That's why we have a justice system to sort it out.
161
The headline has a nefarious implication that DeVos has been pressured into doing something wrong. On the contrary. This is one of the most contentious issues and one having serious life-long implications. Just an accusation is sufficient to taint, if not ruin a career. Many of these cases involve two inebriated individuals, one later having buyer's remorse. I am not saying that there should not be an investigation, but since no one "KNOWS" what happened except the two involved, great care must be taken. Jumps to judgement must be avoided at all costs. So yes, it is not unreasonable to apply extra care, lots of extra care.
21
Any particular evidence for the claim that being raped is just 'buyer's remorse '?
2
Whether a criminal, ways to punish those who have not adhered to those rules, and ways to keep their members safe. Sexual harassment isn't necessarily a crime, but I wouldn't expect my workplace to allow someone to harass me day in and day out without consequences.
If you are a victim of a crime you should report it to law enforcement. Schools aren't there to mete out criminal punishment. There should also be a fair system in place at schools, churches, offices, and other spaces to deal with the reprecussions of these accusations.
If you are a victim of a crime you should report it to law enforcement. Schools aren't there to mete out criminal punishment. There should also be a fair system in place at schools, churches, offices, and other spaces to deal with the reprecussions of these accusations.
1
Guilty until proven innocent is the reality for men facing accusations like these.
20
It is disappointing that the New York Times covered this story without adequately reporting the views of sexual assault survivors. This article seems more sympathetic to "the accused" - and omits some important facts - for example, the fact that only a small percentage of sexual assaults are prosecuted nationwide, and very few of "the accused" suffer any legal consequences from criminal or civil sentencing. Also, while this article is quick to by sympathetic to the family members of the "accused" (remember Brock Turner's father? Aww, the disappointed hopes of his poor little boy), NYT would do well to point out that only a very small percentage of sexual assault reports are determined to be false; so, "the accused" will also be the guilty, most of the time. Meanwhile, sexual assault survivors suffer greatly. How many letters have been written in support of Title iX? How many victims of sexual assault have spoken up in support of the protections offered under Title IX? If NYT had made more of an effort to interview sexual assault survivors, you would have written a different story about Title iX. See this op-ed signed by 114 sexual assault survivors in Teen Vogue: http://www.teenvogue.com/story/sexual-assault-survivors-write-letter-to-...
18
I don't think the article was supposed be an all-encompassing look at sexual assault on campuses. It was about Ms. DeVos and Ms. Jackson and the direction they're moving in.
4
As the father of a college-age daughter, I want all sexual assault allegations investigated and prosecuted to the fullest extent possible. As the father of a soon to be college-age son, I want fairness and due process for anyone accused of such a crime. Quite simply, the Obama-era guidelines are an assault to justice that needed to be removed six months ago, but at least the process has started.
195
What if your son were the victim or your daughter the alleged perpetrator and yes, this can happen? Prosecution and defense and equal and essential in any legal dispute; they don't vary depending on gender or parental outrage. "The Obama-era guidelines" is a politically loaded term for the standard operation of justice - gender neutral and full throttle for each side.
2
More like six years ago I would argue.
The Obama-era guidelines are fair to both parties and do give due process to the accused. You might want to read them before making baseless claims.
1
Praise be. Sanity is returning to the federal government.
14
Yes, let the rapists free! It's the republicon way! After all, Trump has such a high regard for women, right?
7
The comments reveal that many readers think that Title IX investigations involve sexual assaults that take place on campus, but almost all take place off campus at private residences. Colleges and universities should not be held responsible for investigating crimes their students commit away from campus during non-school events.
14
Colleges and universities should not be allowed to investigate non-academic crimes and transgressions. Everything else should be done by the legal system that applies in the rest of this country - police, prosecutors, judges, etc.
11
Lots of misconceptions in these comments.
First, educational institutions have their own sexual misconduct policies and procedures. Schools enforce these policies, not the police. The purpose of a school administrative proceeding is to establish whether a school’s policies and procedures were violated—not to determine civil or criminal liability. So it's not a question of a police investigation OR a school investigation; BOTH can take place independently.
Second, under Title IX and the Department of Education's Dear Colleague Letter of 2011, both the complainant and the respondent have the same rights and must be treated equally in all proceedings. The guidance clearly states that the school’s investigation must be impartial in all respects, respecting the due process rights of both parties. Both parties must have the opportunity to be represented by legal counsel, to present witnesses and evidence, and have equal access to information. If the school fails to conduct an impartial investigation and proceeding, as prescribed by the guidance, then all parties have a legal avenue of relief.
The solution to imperfect adjudications is not to discard the DoE guidance, but to educate schools how to conduct proper, equitable investigations and proceedings regarding sexual misconduct violations. Many schools have already done so.
First, educational institutions have their own sexual misconduct policies and procedures. Schools enforce these policies, not the police. The purpose of a school administrative proceeding is to establish whether a school’s policies and procedures were violated—not to determine civil or criminal liability. So it's not a question of a police investigation OR a school investigation; BOTH can take place independently.
Second, under Title IX and the Department of Education's Dear Colleague Letter of 2011, both the complainant and the respondent have the same rights and must be treated equally in all proceedings. The guidance clearly states that the school’s investigation must be impartial in all respects, respecting the due process rights of both parties. Both parties must have the opportunity to be represented by legal counsel, to present witnesses and evidence, and have equal access to information. If the school fails to conduct an impartial investigation and proceeding, as prescribed by the guidance, then all parties have a legal avenue of relief.
The solution to imperfect adjudications is not to discard the DoE guidance, but to educate schools how to conduct proper, equitable investigations and proceedings regarding sexual misconduct violations. Many schools have already done so.
15
Clearly you have not had experience with this process.
1). Administrators would actually have to follow their own policies, 100 lawsuits against universities indicates what is written in policy is not used in practice.
2) Please show me a document that spells out the rights of the accused. Or FAQ's for a student that finds themselves accused. They don't exist.
3) A system that sees an accused as guilty before any investigation, based solely on an accusation is biased and unconstitutional.
4) The legal remady you speak of can only be afforded by those with means. It takes $150,000 - $1 ,000,000 to hold a university accountable in a court of law. This is not a realistic option for college students.
How about a fair process, outside investigators, and actual evidentiary standards. Do away with third party hearsay and single investigator models that collude with police to hide exculpatory evidence.
1). Administrators would actually have to follow their own policies, 100 lawsuits against universities indicates what is written in policy is not used in practice.
2) Please show me a document that spells out the rights of the accused. Or FAQ's for a student that finds themselves accused. They don't exist.
3) A system that sees an accused as guilty before any investigation, based solely on an accusation is biased and unconstitutional.
4) The legal remady you speak of can only be afforded by those with means. It takes $150,000 - $1 ,000,000 to hold a university accountable in a court of law. This is not a realistic option for college students.
How about a fair process, outside investigators, and actual evidentiary standards. Do away with third party hearsay and single investigator models that collude with police to hide exculpatory evidence.
5
If these are criminal assaults, they should be dealt with in the criminal justice system affording the accused the rights of due process. Universities should stop trying to deal with these issues when the accusations are of an illegal nature; they should be investigated and prosecuted by professional law enforcement. For non-criminal behaviors, universities are corporations that may set policies and guidelines that must meet or exceed those legally required.
6
Sexual assault on campus is not an issue for colleges to adjudicate. It is a crime where the police and DA need to investigate. The standard of conviction for any felony is "beyond a reasonable doubt". If all that exists is conflicting testimony from the alleged victim and the alleged perpetrator, that doesn't meet the standard. That is our system. If you think that we should lessen the "beyond a reasonable doubt" criteria in order to achieve more convictions, then you don't understand our justice system. Yes, we don't always convict guilty people but we hope that we don't convict innocent ones. It's not perfect, no system is, but it is the correct one in my opinion.
142
Colleges are not "convicting" accused rapists.
There is a difference between the due process to which you are entitled under the Constitution in a criminal prosecution by the State, and how you are treated by your college.
Hint: the right to "due process" does not protect your right to stay in school.
There is a difference between the due process to which you are entitled under the Constitution in a criminal prosecution by the State, and how you are treated by your college.
Hint: the right to "due process" does not protect your right to stay in school.
9
I don't know why anyone would send their son to a school that would expel him based only on an accusation without regard for evidence. Who would want their son in such an environment?
5
It's been the foundation of our justice system since before the Magna Carta -- dating back to Islamic and Roman law. I agree we should keep it.
1
DeVos will come up with the simple solution. All accused who are of color should be investigated and nice white Christian boys not investigated. Women have been abused for decades in our colleges which were reluctant to pursue cases against Frat boys etc. We can't go backwards. NO means NO and if a woman is incapable of consent, then it is rape!!
42
Perfectly stated.
6
Ridiculous. Remember what happened at Duke? There, four white boys were railroaded by a corrupt white DA who later lost his law license and went to prison for what he did. Race played a role in the Duke lacrosse case for sure - the fact the accuser was black and the accused white was enough to brand them guilty from the start. This whole subject is tainted with hysteria, racial and otherwise.
6
You're missing the point Philip, what if you were a fly on the wall and she actually said yes. Then months later decides to ruin this boy's life by suing under Title IX that he raped her. As a fly on that wall he actually weeks later simply spurned her, and that Phillip made her upset and then she cried to a friend and then, and then, and then.
10
I can't believe I am saying that I agree with DeVos on something but I do. I strongly believe it was wrong for Title IX to be used this way and I am glad that this really unfair application of that law is being given a second look. We hold people who drive drunk accountable for that decision. We would never say "Sarah lacked the capacity to consent to drive her car b/c she had too many cocktails." No way. Sarah would be held answerable for driving the car regardless. So why would we say such a thing to excuse Sarah but crucify Bill for having sex after a night of drinking when BOTH persons are inebriated? That makes no sense. It's also incredibly patriarchal; what if it is actually BIll who never would have slept with Sarah had he been sober? Should she get thrown out of the university for raping him. This is a thought that never occurs to the Twitter-liberal set, but it should. Felony accusations belong in a court of law where EVIDENCE rules the day, not in the pages of Rolling Stone magazine or in a campus ombudsman's office which cannot in any way shape or form administer criminal culpability.
157
You make fantastic points.
3
I agree. Get the police involved at the outset. Victims may be students, but they are citizens entitled to police action. Aggressive outreach programs by local state, county, and local police, prefaced by substantive educational outreach programs, is the answer. No campus' student, male or female and so victimized, should hesitate to call the police, rather than an employer-favoring a dead-end student health center or "rape crisis center."
Rape is a crime. It's simple If found guilty, jail is the answer. We do it to petty drug dealers. Why not privileged would-be doctors or football players?
Rape is a crime. It's simple If found guilty, jail is the answer. We do it to petty drug dealers. Why not privileged would-be doctors or football players?
2
It's a good thing loss of a scholarship doesn't fall under felonious statutes, nor does it require such a high bar of evidence being a civil matter between two parties rather than a criminal one between the accused and society.
But you knew that.
But you knew that.
1
Ms Jackson.
Have you ever been raped or assaulted?
Stop playing politics and stop bleeding for the accused.
Have you ever been raped or assaulted?
Stop playing politics and stop bleeding for the accused.
10
According to the article, Ms. Jackson is: "A sexual assault survivor herself, she said she sees “a red flag that something’s not quite right” — and that the rights of accused students have too often been ignored." (6th paragraph)
She is not "playing politics." She is not "bleeding for the accused." Rather, she is simply stating that the criminal justice system in the United States is predicated on the assumption of "innocent until proven guilty," and that guilt must be established "beyond a reasonable doubt." Her objection to the "hearings" that campuses run is that they are not being held according to those same legal standards.
No one on either side of the debate disagrees with her about that.
The actual question is whether or not it is fair to allow colleges to run their own judicial system, using their own set of rules and their own legal standards (and administered by people who don't have legal training). Colleges can't impose jail time or monetary penalties on an alleged perpetrator; in fact, in the eyes of the law, a college can't decide "factual guilt." But they can still destroy the life and future career of an alleged perpetrator.
The question becomes: Is it "more wrong" to let some "guilty" people go free, to ensure that no innocent persion is wrongfully "convicted?" Or is it "more wrong" to mistakenly "convict" some innocent people to ensure that all victims find justice?
Our nation's laws clearly answer that question: innocent unless proven guilty.
She is not "playing politics." She is not "bleeding for the accused." Rather, she is simply stating that the criminal justice system in the United States is predicated on the assumption of "innocent until proven guilty," and that guilt must be established "beyond a reasonable doubt." Her objection to the "hearings" that campuses run is that they are not being held according to those same legal standards.
No one on either side of the debate disagrees with her about that.
The actual question is whether or not it is fair to allow colleges to run their own judicial system, using their own set of rules and their own legal standards (and administered by people who don't have legal training). Colleges can't impose jail time or monetary penalties on an alleged perpetrator; in fact, in the eyes of the law, a college can't decide "factual guilt." But they can still destroy the life and future career of an alleged perpetrator.
The question becomes: Is it "more wrong" to let some "guilty" people go free, to ensure that no innocent persion is wrongfully "convicted?" Or is it "more wrong" to mistakenly "convict" some innocent people to ensure that all victims find justice?
Our nation's laws clearly answer that question: innocent unless proven guilty.
7
I suggest reading John Krauker's book 'Missoula: Rape and the Justice System in a College Town" for perspective on acquaintance rape and why it is important for both the college and the judicial system to investigate. The difference in burden of proof is well justified. Ms Jackson should know well that the justice system is weighted in favor of not finding an innocent person guilty rather than the reverse. What about the horrendous experience of seeing your attacker in the class room or dining hall on a daily basis?
27
Somehow this doesn't surprise. Betsy Devos' boss publicly stated his fondness for and skill at successfully committing sexual assault, and how easily he got away with it.
44
Rape must be taken seriously, so should due processes. University inquisitions are not the answer and universities will simply expel a student (male) to make it look as though universities are tough on sexual assault. Universities want to protect victims, but their other concern is positive public relations and this concern creates a conflict of interest. Involving local police is the right thing to do. The campus sexual assault problem is in great part a heated message from outdated feminists such as Kate Harding, a woman ruining the lives of boys and young men with her visceral portrayal of them. Modern feminists are looking at gender issues through a human rights lens and we need more of them. The old school feminists won't allow us to even consider that men may be victims of rape, being falsely accused of rape, and being victims of nearly anything else. When boys are raped by women, the penalties are less severe because our culture (women included) don't take it as seriously. Universities need to be sued time and time again when anyone is falsely accused of such a hideous crime in the same way that victims of rape deserve justice. Falsely accusing someone of rape is awful and it does happen. Just ask the Duke lacrosse team. Sue the universities until they get smarter and turn these matters over to proper law enforcement.
20
Agreed. It's deeply troubling that the press consistently describes incidents of male teachers having sex with their female students as "rape," but stories about female teachers who do the same with their male students refer to the incident as the perpetrator "having sex" with their victims.
2
89% of all universities did not report a single rape this past year.
The lies of feminism stem from a VOLUNTARY (read: motivated) survey in which women were asked many questions. For example, if they stated they regretted sex, the survey takers clicked "raped."
One out of four students are not raped.
More toxic is how feminists lump "rape" and "sexual assault" together.
According to the U.Michigan, an assault happens when a woman is coerced into sex. An example of such coercion is when a man threatens to end the relationship due to a lack of sex.
Imagine that: he ends the relationship due to no sex and he is now a sexual assaulter.
Feminism is toxic. And, finally, deVos will return common sense to this issue.
Try the men in court. It belongs in court. Women do not have a right to keep pursing their regretful anger until a man is found guilty of something, somehow.
(Also, yes campuses can try plagiarism, but that does not carry the scarlet letter on their transcripts.)
The lies of feminism stem from a VOLUNTARY (read: motivated) survey in which women were asked many questions. For example, if they stated they regretted sex, the survey takers clicked "raped."
One out of four students are not raped.
More toxic is how feminists lump "rape" and "sexual assault" together.
According to the U.Michigan, an assault happens when a woman is coerced into sex. An example of such coercion is when a man threatens to end the relationship due to a lack of sex.
Imagine that: he ends the relationship due to no sex and he is now a sexual assaulter.
Feminism is toxic. And, finally, deVos will return common sense to this issue.
Try the men in court. It belongs in court. Women do not have a right to keep pursing their regretful anger until a man is found guilty of something, somehow.
(Also, yes campuses can try plagiarism, but that does not carry the scarlet letter on their transcripts.)
24
Wow. And I thought the Scandinavians were enlightened.
5
Inthe United States, universities can't actually try anyone in a court of law - man or woman -- or put them in prison. Do you think "toxic feminism" somehow makes that possible?
2
If she changes any of This Tough-Policies Against Rape On Campus ...the Standards of this Administration have Reached a NEW LOW in Morality, NO Self-Respect and Offer NO Responsibility Against Abuse.
5
Sure, please let the unqualified Secretary of Education, chosen by the Groper-in-Chief, weigh in with her Christian-biased, ill-informed opinions. I eagerly await the outcome of this investigation. I'm sure it will fall somewhere between "they were asking for it" and "only bad girls have sex before marriage."
32
Candice Jackson’s assertion that 90 percent of Title IX sexual assault investigations fall into the category of ‘we were both drunk” category takes many readers aback. However, it appears to be based on Department of Education statistics. The argument from the defense perspective is that some women wake up the next morning after engaging in consensual sex and decide they are not the type of women who would have agreed to consensual sex if they hadn’t been drinking. So they file sexual assault allegations to assuage their own sense of guilt. Some of these women will continue to drink and have consensual sex they regret the next morning for years before it dawns on them they are, indeed, they type of women who drink and engage in consensual sex.
12
In some cases, it's the parents that are behind the demand for "justice."
1
A former Sacred Heart University student accused of making up rape allegations against two football players faces two years in prison, in a plea bargain offered by prosecutors in Bridgeport, Conn.
The football players have withdrawn from the university rather than face expulsion and having that on their records.
http://www.ctpost.com/local/article/Student-accused-of-making-up-rape-al...
http://www.ctpost.com/local/article/Rape-accuser-gets-more-time-to-weigh...
The football players have withdrawn from the university rather than face expulsion and having that on their records.
http://www.ctpost.com/local/article/Student-accused-of-making-up-rape-al...
http://www.ctpost.com/local/article/Rape-accuser-gets-more-time-to-weigh...
7
Yes let's consult with Men's Rights Activist who don't eve believe its possible to rape someone..... what kind of bizarro world are we living in?
20
It's possible, but it falls out of women's mouth too easily that's the issue.
4
Given the recent suggestion in a David Brook's piece that class is a main educational driver in the US, I wonder if the rapes and accusations track similar motives and privilege assumptions.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/11/opinion/how-we-are-ruining-america.ht...
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/11/opinion/how-we-are-ruining-america.ht...
1
The FBI Unified Crime Report shows college women are much less likely than non-college women to be sexual assault victims.
8
My interest was/is in the class distinctions once college is attained. Some are trying to move up, others are (in their own minds) bottom feeding. Let's just call it: The Downton Abbey Effect.
"Campus Rape Policies Get a New Look as the Accused Get DeVos’s Ear"
The problem with the Department of Education's (DOE) "Dear Colleague" letter and their other coercive tactics forcing Universities to adjudicate she said/he said dating issues is that there is NO legal basis for what the DOE is doing.
Title IX, as written, prohibits Universities from failing to provide equal educational access on the basis of gender.
Since extramarital sex is NOT part of the curriculum of any University that I know of, the Universities are simply not responsible for their students' activities in that regard. Therefore, they are NOT required to investigate or adjudicate such activities.
DOE has been repeatedly challenged by Congress to identify the specific legal justification for their over-zealous overreach in this area.
They have consistently refused, because to engage in logical analysis of the issue would make clear that their actions are illegitimate.
There is an entire criminal justice system in this country, which is set up to investigate and prosecute allegations of sexual assault. These matters should be left to the pros rather than rank amateurs, who often are of the Social Justice Warrior mindset and rather than being objective arbiters of fact are instead pursuing an agenda.
This agenda is reflected in debunked 'studies' (including the one linked to in this article) which purport to show that 25% of women college students are victims of sexual assault.
The problem with the Department of Education's (DOE) "Dear Colleague" letter and their other coercive tactics forcing Universities to adjudicate she said/he said dating issues is that there is NO legal basis for what the DOE is doing.
Title IX, as written, prohibits Universities from failing to provide equal educational access on the basis of gender.
Since extramarital sex is NOT part of the curriculum of any University that I know of, the Universities are simply not responsible for their students' activities in that regard. Therefore, they are NOT required to investigate or adjudicate such activities.
DOE has been repeatedly challenged by Congress to identify the specific legal justification for their over-zealous overreach in this area.
They have consistently refused, because to engage in logical analysis of the issue would make clear that their actions are illegitimate.
There is an entire criminal justice system in this country, which is set up to investigate and prosecute allegations of sexual assault. These matters should be left to the pros rather than rank amateurs, who often are of the Social Justice Warrior mindset and rather than being objective arbiters of fact are instead pursuing an agenda.
This agenda is reflected in debunked 'studies' (including the one linked to in this article) which purport to show that 25% of women college students are victims of sexual assault.
20
Obviously rape is a horrifying crime and there is a problem on campus. Unless a campus stops drinking on campus and enforces it, I won't believe they are serious. It is also not discriminatory as some seem to think to counsel college women not to be alone with men they don't know. Women I know who have been assaulted have told me that's what happened to them.
However, some of the Obama regs were deeply unfair, basically ruining young men's lives under a false assumption that women never lie about rape. Those young men have lives same as the young women. AIso I have known boys and girls who have admitted to me screaming abuse or rape in order to get their way b/c that's what we've taught. It happens.
There should be no hearing while there are criminal processes ongoing. It may not always be fair if that extends beyond either party's time in school, but it is always unfair if someone either has to testify with criminal proceedings pending or not have the chance at all. And the standard is important. Clear and convincing may be too tough, but in reality, if the judging body believes one or the other, that's who they will likely protect, regardless of the standard. Never the less, in most civil matters, and this is civil, the lesser standard is almost always applied. I also believe written consent rules are deeply unfair.
There is nothing wrong with making regs fairer. You are never going to get perfect justice in a school ct. anymore than in real courts.
However, some of the Obama regs were deeply unfair, basically ruining young men's lives under a false assumption that women never lie about rape. Those young men have lives same as the young women. AIso I have known boys and girls who have admitted to me screaming abuse or rape in order to get their way b/c that's what we've taught. It happens.
There should be no hearing while there are criminal processes ongoing. It may not always be fair if that extends beyond either party's time in school, but it is always unfair if someone either has to testify with criminal proceedings pending or not have the chance at all. And the standard is important. Clear and convincing may be too tough, but in reality, if the judging body believes one or the other, that's who they will likely protect, regardless of the standard. Never the less, in most civil matters, and this is civil, the lesser standard is almost always applied. I also believe written consent rules are deeply unfair.
There is nothing wrong with making regs fairer. You are never going to get perfect justice in a school ct. anymore than in real courts.
7
Stopping on-campus drinking would have impact because almost all sexual assaults take place off campus. Stopping off-campus drinking would dramatically reduce sexual assaults, not to mention consensual sex that students regret the next morning.
1
William, it's not that I disagree with you about off-campus, but I was only talking about what rules there should be for schools and what they should do on their own. But, schools can stop on-campus drinking to some degree. I know my daughter told me that at the college she went to, which was dry, there was almost no drinking at all.
The more men find it socially acceptable to blatantly deny sexual assault allegations, the harder it is for women to come forward. I wasn't believed about my rape because my rapist was an RA at my college. The honor board did everything in their power to paint me as a petty loon, and I spent my senior year hyperventilating and considering dropping out because I felt so unsafe and even began to think myself crazy. Meanwhile, he continues to this day to maintain it was a false accusation because I was jealous of his girlfriend. Who's the victim? The attacker who complains loudly about being falsely accused, or the person who was attacked?
29
I'm sorry this happened to you Sophia gal. Thank you for speaking out.
4
Some women vilify men to stone for their regret. Touché
5
But you did come forward and that act alone is important. I am sorry you were assaulted and sorry there were no women's groups on-campus or off to support you.
1
I dot even slightly minimize the extent to which sexual assault is, indeed, a very serious problem on campus, often fueled by completely out of control alcohol consumption that many schools have ignored, or worse, enabled.
The problem is that many campuses have dealt with accusations in ways that absolutely trample on the rights of the accused, ignore due process, and ignore anything slightly resembling the presumption of innocence.
I was a senior college administrator and know the problem is real. I also know that in many places, women are still not taken seriously when they raise an allegation. To be sure, guilty perpetrators have escaped sanctions.
But I also know of many cases in which administrators, fearing federal sanctions, have instituted draconian and kangaroo-court procedures that, as a group of Harvard law professors wrote in an open letter, seem designed to find guilt rather than justice.
My conclusion after watching all this unfold? Simple.
Sexual assault is a crime. Why should college students have the privilege (or disadvantage) of having their cases adjudicated in a sheltered setting staffed by amateurs who wouldn't know due process or the rules of evidence if it bit them in the keister?
Yes, the justice system is flawed too. But colleges have bolloxed this process so badly that it's time to turn to a system that, while imperfect, is subject to constitutional guarantees that many campus-based disciplinary structures have simply ignored.
The problem is that many campuses have dealt with accusations in ways that absolutely trample on the rights of the accused, ignore due process, and ignore anything slightly resembling the presumption of innocence.
I was a senior college administrator and know the problem is real. I also know that in many places, women are still not taken seriously when they raise an allegation. To be sure, guilty perpetrators have escaped sanctions.
But I also know of many cases in which administrators, fearing federal sanctions, have instituted draconian and kangaroo-court procedures that, as a group of Harvard law professors wrote in an open letter, seem designed to find guilt rather than justice.
My conclusion after watching all this unfold? Simple.
Sexual assault is a crime. Why should college students have the privilege (or disadvantage) of having their cases adjudicated in a sheltered setting staffed by amateurs who wouldn't know due process or the rules of evidence if it bit them in the keister?
Yes, the justice system is flawed too. But colleges have bolloxed this process so badly that it's time to turn to a system that, while imperfect, is subject to constitutional guarantees that many campus-based disciplinary structures have simply ignored.
40
What due process rights is Harvard required to provide its students, exactly?
Or can it kick a student out for any violation of its honor code without consulting the police?
Do the Federal Rules of Evidence apply when a student plagiarizes? Do you even know any of the rules of evidence, or do you think it makes you sound smart to reference them?
Thought so.
Or can it kick a student out for any violation of its honor code without consulting the police?
Do the Federal Rules of Evidence apply when a student plagiarizes? Do you even know any of the rules of evidence, or do you think it makes you sound smart to reference them?
Thought so.
3
Give the names of some people who have faced life in prison for violating an honor code or plagiarism. Or even been arrested for such "crimes." Are you equating rape with plagiarism?
Thought so.
Thought so.
2
There is something profoundly wrong and evil lurking in the alleged mind of Betsy Devos. She seems to be against anything that makes common sense for students, their decent education, their finances and their well being. Makes sense, come to think of it, when you consider the idiot who appointed her who denies truths - who would not know a truthful statement if it hit him in his orange mug like a brick. Maybe if he stopped snarling and started listening - ah well, fat chance of that.
6
The accused has already made a pact with himself the moment he committed the crime.
Rape and assault are moral and criminal abominations that should be prosecuted in accordance with laws, not educational policies.
Ms. deVos, I think you have better fish to fry.
Rape and assault are moral and criminal abominations that should be prosecuted in accordance with laws, not educational policies.
Ms. deVos, I think you have better fish to fry.
5
The use of Title IX by the Federal government as a threat against colleges and universities in alleged sexual assault cases was a perversion of justice, an example of social engineering run amok. The Dept. of Education under the 'Dear Colleague' letter of 2011 forced a lower standard of justice on schools to determine guilt, stacking the odds against the accused. Star Chambers is an apt description of these tribunals. Regretful dalliances, one-night stands, unhappy breakups, drunken couplings, all caused hundreds of young men to be expelled from schools, cast shamefully as sexual predators, when the events would not come close to the police definition of sexual assault. It has been a terrible miscarriage of justice, a witch hunt against young men and colleges, cowed by the threat of the loss of Federal funding.
As others have written, rape and sexual assault are serious charges that should be investigated and brought by law enforcement when warranted, not by some zealous administrator seeking to send a social message against men.
The Trump administration has been a disaster in nearly all respects to this point. Rolling back this perversion of the Title IX act would be an enlightened exception.
As others have written, rape and sexual assault are serious charges that should be investigated and brought by law enforcement when warranted, not by some zealous administrator seeking to send a social message against men.
The Trump administration has been a disaster in nearly all respects to this point. Rolling back this perversion of the Title IX act would be an enlightened exception.
22
This woman, DeVos, makes me ashamed to call myself Christian.
There is nothing Christin about her shameless attitudes.
There is nothing Christin about her shameless attitudes.
16
Neither is there anything Christian about denying young men their rights and condemning them wrongly. They deserve a fair trial like everyone else in this country.
12
AACNY, so I assume you think people who lose civil court cases did not get a fair trial either? Because the same standard of a preponderance of evidence is applied in civil cases. Because universities are not sending men to jail.
Also, how would you feel if your daughter was assaulted by someone who was known to have been accused of a prior sexual assault, but the university did nothing to protect its students from the accused?
Also, how would you feel if your daughter was assaulted by someone who was known to have been accused of a prior sexual assault, but the university did nothing to protect its students from the accused?
2
The first thing that needs to occur is that all investigations into sexual assault must be removed from the colleges/universities and done solely by law enforcement. Universities do not have the expertise to conduct these sensitive investigations and must stick with what they do best. Law enforcement and prosecutors must take these investigations over period. Until that happens, no one will trust the outcomes of these investigations; including the accusers, accused and general public.
58
"We don’t do that in our court system, our criminal justice system, and I see no reason why we would want to do it in a campus system either.”
Why have a campus system? Turn the evidence over to the police and county prosecutor, and allow the accused a day in a real court with all his rights.
I really don't understand how a university campus acquired its own jurisdictional rules in the first place. It's almost as if a campus is for callow lads what a reservation is for indigenous peoples. It's certainly not equivalent.
Let's say an 18 year old committed a rape on a high school campus. Would the principal have a tribunal to decide on guilt and punishment? No, she'd call the cops.
Why have a campus system? Turn the evidence over to the police and county prosecutor, and allow the accused a day in a real court with all his rights.
I really don't understand how a university campus acquired its own jurisdictional rules in the first place. It's almost as if a campus is for callow lads what a reservation is for indigenous peoples. It's certainly not equivalent.
Let's say an 18 year old committed a rape on a high school campus. Would the principal have a tribunal to decide on guilt and punishment? No, she'd call the cops.
25
It says here that Betsy DeVos is far less interested in sexual assaults on college campuses. She's more interested in aiding and abetting her boss's determination to chop down every and any Obama administrative rule, regulation, executive order or directive. She isn't fooling anyone. Why should she care about victims of sexual predation in academic settings? Her job is to Christianize every American school in America and this charade is the merest show.
24
Sadly, the solution to this dilemma is multiple generations, and thousands of years away: Religiosity, patriarchal-ism, machismo, shame attributed to sexuality, inadequate sexual awareness & lack of education are the core culprits of this painful dilemma. Imagine this: It is believed and manifested that "Sexual intercourse is the reward attributed to "love" of the partner. And "love" is the grand reward of humanity". It could not be further from the truth. This is the eternal lie stipulated by current behaviors and beliefs (as mentioned at the start). Up to now and in 5 thousand years of History we have not been able to make a dent in respecting women and honoring their being, let alone granting them equality in the human race contribution. All children, starting with their parents, young men and women need to be taught RESPECT TO SELF, TO THEIR PEERS, THEIR BODIES, THEIR MIND, THEIR FUTURE. They should be taught that giving into an impulse of hormonal pressures IS NOT LOVE, That consuming alcohol or drugs is not an acceptable excuse for violent overtaking of another, and that giving in to sexual impulses without exercising responsibility and respect will have serious and un-retractable consequences.... even losing scholarships, NCAA opportunities, pageants, etc. Could even lose their lives as consequence of the irreparable distress of the violent act and the suicidal path it leads to for some.
2
It is about time that people realize that perjury does occur for many reasons and no reason at all, and due process is the only way we have a hope of having justice, even if it is a slim hope.
11
The dilemma is clear:
Rape is real and a violent criminal offense.
An accusation later proven false can ruin a life.
With these two hard truths barreling towards each other, why are we putting College administrations in the center of the crash?
Sexual assault accusations should be handled by law enforcement, period.
Rape is real and a violent criminal offense.
An accusation later proven false can ruin a life.
With these two hard truths barreling towards each other, why are we putting College administrations in the center of the crash?
Sexual assault accusations should be handled by law enforcement, period.
84
Thank you Ms. Jackson. Restoring balance to this process is important, for both sides. When someone violates the rights of another person, and is held accountable, they are forced to grow out of that abusive behavior. When someone has a painful or upsetting experience, due to breakup, intoxication or emotional confusion, and does not have the option of blaming someone else, that person has to go through the process of becoming stronger emotionally, and smarter. These young adults need a strong system, with integrity, to handle rape accusations. This is the only thing that will force them to grow up.
3
Rather than wasting time and money second guessing the position of the previous administration, why not focus on campus education before another generation of Bill Clintons and Roger Ailses graduate.
2
I am more concerned about false rape accusations against my son than actual rapes against my daughter at college.
133
I am not sure if your comment is a joke or not. I would hope it is.
As a parent of both a daughter and a son, I would have to say I am much much more concerned for my daughter. In High School, College, and after. Criminal statistics back up concern.
my https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system
As a parent of both a daughter and a son, I would have to say I am much much more concerned for my daughter. In High School, College, and after. Criminal statistics back up concern.
my https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system
8
"I am more concerned about infrequently occurring claims that are founded on baseless, paranoid rhetoric than empirically provable realities against my daughter."
There, I reworded that to more accurately reflect the gravity of your "concerns."
There, I reworded that to more accurately reflect the gravity of your "concerns."
16
Can you clarify what you mean by that? I assume that you do not mean that it would be worse to be falsely accused of rape than to be raped, so I am guessing that you mean that a false accusation is more likely than a rape. I am in no position to evaluate that claim empirically, and I'm not here as a critic -- I have a son and a daughter and I definitely worry a lot about the possibility that a not great sexual experience can become a rape in the current climate of discussions around consent (e.g. girl says no to sex initially, but making out continues, and then without explicit verbal consent, she undresses and appears interested in sex as the episode progresses but she is pretty drunk and they don't know each other well and the next morning she is angry that he didn't stop when she said no -- in my day that would not have been considered rape but it seems like today it might?) but there are also a lot of predatory men out there so my fears for my daughter are comparable. It is harder to caution a son -- mostly I just advocate for explicit consent with someone you care about and who appears to care about you.
3
Ms. DeVos, it is obvious that you have led a very sheltered life, so maybe we can understand why YOU don't get this. EVERY claim of rape should be taken seriously. Very few would make that claim, if it were not true, given the victim blaming and the shame that gets piled on the woman, as if SHE did something wrong. Also, there should be NO statute of limitations on rape--none.
5
This is a step in the right direction. Feminists have been lying about rape for so long and so virulently that the whole issue smells of farce. One in four college women are raped? No, the bureau of justice statistics puts the number at about 3 in 1000--about 100 times less. Victims never lie about rape? Actually, the best studies put false rape accusations at a staggering 40-60%. In fact, there is no crime that purported victims lie about more than rape. Given these facts, it was absurd for the Obama administration to undermine the rights of the accused and subvert 300 years of established legal principle.
13
I don't know where you are getting your figures but most police departments and District Attorneys will confirm that rape is the least prosecuted and least convicted crime in America. Only one in 5 rapes is ever even reported to the police. And out of those, only about 1 in 7 go to trial. So already we're down to 3%.
Thanks to DeVos & Co., justice for victims, whose chance were dismal already, will get even dimmer.
Thanks to DeVos & Co., justice for victims, whose chance were dismal already, will get even dimmer.
3
Is the following the stat you're quoting?: National Institute of Justice (2016) – Rape – 4% (in one academic year only).
Note that is for one year only - the four-year figure would be a multiple of this.
Those "best studies" on "false rape accusations?" The best studies agree that the number of these is simply not known; there is no evidence for your "staggering" figure. Twisting statistics is never helpful, no matter which side does it.
Note that is for one year only - the four-year figure would be a multiple of this.
Those "best studies" on "false rape accusations?" The best studies agree that the number of these is simply not known; there is no evidence for your "staggering" figure. Twisting statistics is never helpful, no matter which side does it.
Hard to form a position on this issue, but given Obama's record of arm-wringing in the bathroom case, and also his record of abused executive authority, we know for a fact that his administration preferred taking a position based on ideology first, then reverse-engineer laws as basis to justify and put them to effect.
Especially Title IX, which the Obama people translated to Swahili, then French, finally to English, and lo behold, suddenly the title became crystal-clear basis for mandating bathroom rights for transgendered folks across the board.
Based on that shoddy record alone, we can safely assume overreach occurred in this case as well. Therefore, steps must be taken to swing, once again, the Obama pendulum from familiar extreme left position, back to center. Thankfully the right people are handling it, in particular Ms. DeVos and Ms. Jackson.
Separately, there's huge irony that Senior Obama, Barack's dad, got pushed out of the U.S. by Harvard in the 60s, only because he enjoyed easy success with white women. Although the university camouflaged his deportation under pretext of no funding. But Barack Sr. took it with a shrug and returned to Kenya, later enjoyed considerable success and respect as a government economist.
More than half a century later, and under Obama's rules, Barack Sr. would probably been slammed with assault charges, left under a cloud, without degree, and likely permanently barred from re-entering the country where his son lived. Go figure.
Especially Title IX, which the Obama people translated to Swahili, then French, finally to English, and lo behold, suddenly the title became crystal-clear basis for mandating bathroom rights for transgendered folks across the board.
Based on that shoddy record alone, we can safely assume overreach occurred in this case as well. Therefore, steps must be taken to swing, once again, the Obama pendulum from familiar extreme left position, back to center. Thankfully the right people are handling it, in particular Ms. DeVos and Ms. Jackson.
Separately, there's huge irony that Senior Obama, Barack's dad, got pushed out of the U.S. by Harvard in the 60s, only because he enjoyed easy success with white women. Although the university camouflaged his deportation under pretext of no funding. But Barack Sr. took it with a shrug and returned to Kenya, later enjoyed considerable success and respect as a government economist.
More than half a century later, and under Obama's rules, Barack Sr. would probably been slammed with assault charges, left under a cloud, without degree, and likely permanently barred from re-entering the country where his son lived. Go figure.
5
All female students to learn domestic science only. Contraceptives to be illegal on campus. No abortions allowed period. Male students to be awarded extra credits for each female student impregnated and caused to leave.
Sounds almost Republican enough to be approved by Congress..
Sounds almost Republican enough to be approved by Congress..
11
So glad to hear this awful lack of due process is being improved. Rape - all crime - should be handled by police. After conviction the school should act.
13
are there rules which prevent college women in particular from going to the police when they have reason to believe they are victims of rape ? If not, that would seem the most direct solution and the only option available to non-college women.
5
No. Just no. There may be issues with Title IX, but Devos is not the person to tackle them, given her association with the poster child for sexual assault and bullying, you know the one, Donald Trump.
11
If only she was as concerned about human predators on campus as she was about bears on campus.
16
something about this woman IS CREEPY
8
So in addition to enabling enabling loan sharks, fly-by-night "college" promoters, religious bigots, and testing racketeers, we can add rapists to the list of miscreants that Ms. Betsy so eagerly embraces. What was that nonsense about draining the swamp? She's welcome to believe whatever she wants to, but not to enforce her convenient values on the rest of us.
6
It's disheartening to see the many references to 'rapists' in the comments below. The article is about men accused of rape. Let's not confuse the two. Even college students (and yes, even male college students) have the right to due process and equal protection under the law. Granting them the same rights as any other American is not an endorsement of rape. Rape, like all violent crime, should be handled by the police and the justice system, not by college adminstrators in secretive kangaroo courts. Imagine if we treated murder so casually. Would we be as confident in the outcome? Why not treat rape as seriously as we do all the other violent crimes? And grant both accused and accuser their Constitutional rights.
13
For the commenters who are confused as to why the government is asking universities to conduct investigations into rape charges, I would recommend reading Jon Krakauer's "Missoula: Rape and the Justice System." Taking your rapist to court is a difficult journey, and often schools can offer another option that will prevent a victim from having to attend classes with the person who raped him or her. In a recent case in at the University of Alabama, a girl went immediately to the police but the law there states the victim has to be forcefully raped - so the fact that she "just" said no multiple times and asked to leave his place, wasn't enough. They accused her of crime because when she was trying to leave his place, she took a gun out of fear. She recently committed suicide.
The laws often do not protect the victim, and the victims are searching for other options. As a former student at a large university, I can attest that rape is a problem. I know women who were raped and never spoke out. I know zero women who accused someone of rape because a regrettable sexual encounter or both people simply being drunk.
The laws often do not protect the victim, and the victims are searching for other options. As a former student at a large university, I can attest that rape is a problem. I know women who were raped and never spoke out. I know zero women who accused someone of rape because a regrettable sexual encounter or both people simply being drunk.
17
This comment should be a NYT pick.
5
Trusting DeVos' and Ms. Jackson to re-examination policies of on campus sexual assault and not come out with a preordained conclusion is ridiculous. This article clearly shows that Ms. Jackson is already predisposed to 'rule' in favor of the accused - the men. What a rotten scheme by Ms. DeVos' to turn back the 'rights' of the victims worked for by the Obama Administration.
All incidents should be handled by the local law enforcement. The school administrations have no place in adjudicating any serious crime.
DeVos + Trump = Blame the victim
All incidents should be handled by the local law enforcement. The school administrations have no place in adjudicating any serious crime.
DeVos + Trump = Blame the victim
7
"She is best known for her involvement in attacks against Hillary Clinton during the presidential campaign, when she elevated women who had accused former President Bill Clinton of sexual assault or harassment, while denouncing women who accused Mr. Trump of such behavior."
Yes, she's exactly the unbiased official we need to spearhead this misguided directive.
Yes, she's exactly the unbiased official we need to spearhead this misguided directive.
5
DeVos will do nothing. She bought her job and is so rich that she has never had contact with ordinary people and has no comprehension of their life style or needs. Like ALL Trump appointees she has no experience to prepare for a job she is thus too incompetent to do.
2
Will hatred of women ever end? Can this woman really think that there are more men unfairly treated than women? Rape is pretty much a male thing and endemic in colleges across the nation. To even say that many men are being unjustly accused is reprehensible.
We could make it easy. All rapes reported to colleges should be referred to police for investigation. Then we will have our justice system bring on the woman hatred.
We could make it easy. All rapes reported to colleges should be referred to police for investigation. Then we will have our justice system bring on the woman hatred.
8
Define endemic.
Stats don't support it
Stats don't support it
7
I read recently that accused students are filing lawsuits against their accusers as a result of the actions of these kangaroo courts. These offenses should be handled by the criminal justice system. Why should our little college snowflakes be treated differently than people living in the real world?
7
The "other" culprit in all of this is alcohol (and to a lesser extent other drugs).
How about zero tolerance for alcohol on campus or any place where a college has jurisdiction?
How about a study to see how much the incidence of college rape would be reduced if alcohol was never involved?
The consumption of alcohol (and other drugs) by immature, barely legal-aged (and many times not legal-aged) students is the main cause of all campus rapes.
Take away the alcohol on campuses and rape will no longer be a problem for colleges. If it's off campus, it's a matter for local law enforcement.
How about zero tolerance for alcohol on campus or any place where a college has jurisdiction?
How about a study to see how much the incidence of college rape would be reduced if alcohol was never involved?
The consumption of alcohol (and other drugs) by immature, barely legal-aged (and many times not legal-aged) students is the main cause of all campus rapes.
Take away the alcohol on campuses and rape will no longer be a problem for colleges. If it's off campus, it's a matter for local law enforcement.
4
The enrollment crisis is bad enough; that would be a death knell.
The Department of Education requires college and universities to conduct sexual assault tribunals because it is displeased with conviction rates in criminal courts. “Stranger rape” is easy to prosecute if the rapist can be identified and caught, especially if DNA evidence exists. “Acquaintance rape” is difficult to prosecute because both the accuser and accused tell plausible stories. Most college sexual assault cases are acquaintance rape cases. Typically, she he claims the sex was nonconsensual while he claims it was consensual. Defense attorneys can easily established reasonable doubt. This make jurors reluctant to convict, even if they think the accused is probably guilty. We should increase the likelihood of successful prosecution in criminal court by permitting either the accuser or accused to present lie detector test result to support their testimony. The test results would work as a “tie breaker.” In some cases, the tests might show both sides think they are telling the truth, but we could see an increase in plea bargaining and convictions as well as an increase in the number of accusations withdrawn.
1
there are too many people here who comment that, without citing actual data, that they assume many cases suffer from victims not getting justice and because of that we should ignore the side of wrongly accused in order to enhance the chance that rapists will get what he or she deserves. this is a dangerous and wrong thinking to do, and this is not how our justice system should work. doing so would make you just as horrendous as these school investigators that so many are despising.
what truly needs to be done is to respect the legal age of 18 for both drinking and smoking, and then let the police and court system deal with these cases.
what truly needs to be done is to respect the legal age of 18 for both drinking and smoking, and then let the police and court system deal with these cases.
3
We're not talking about how the justice system should work. We're talking about how universities and colleges should work. Separate issues. And if thinking that victims of sexual assault should be protected puts me on the despised team, sign me up.
I can't say i any more eloquently than Ms. Jackson - “In principle, there is no reason to depart from setting up a Title IX discipline process on campus that is anything other than fairly balanced and doesn’t prejudge and weight the system in favor of a finding. We don’t do that in our court system, our criminal justice system, and I see no reason why we would want to do it in a campus system either.” Time to put away the pitchforks and torches!
9
As someone who worked at a university and was the victim of sexual harassment, universities make a point of not informing students of the legal issues. They do their best to keep it in house but every student should report an assault sexual or otherwise to the police. Not the campus police or security, but the city, county or state police for a full criminal investigation.
7
"Making America Grating Again," for women. What are we doing to our country and, here, its youth?
Rape is not a complex issue. To take that position obfuscates the simplicity of it: criminals perform it while victims are severely harmed. Rapists deserve justice, however harsh the penalties may be. Victims deserve fairness and assistance with rebuilding their life.
Sympathy for a convicted rapist whose path to becoming a doctor was ended? Let us just wonder what type of bedside manner doctor he would have had, having escaped the consequences of rape.
Criminals commit crimes. We have a system for dealing with that simple fact. That system is surely faulty, but internally and externally we also address those faults. Letting rapists escape dealing with the consequences of their actions does rapists no good, victims no good, and certainly society at large no good.
Rape is not a complex issue. To take that position obfuscates the simplicity of it: criminals perform it while victims are severely harmed. Rapists deserve justice, however harsh the penalties may be. Victims deserve fairness and assistance with rebuilding their life.
Sympathy for a convicted rapist whose path to becoming a doctor was ended? Let us just wonder what type of bedside manner doctor he would have had, having escaped the consequences of rape.
Criminals commit crimes. We have a system for dealing with that simple fact. That system is surely faulty, but internally and externally we also address those faults. Letting rapists escape dealing with the consequences of their actions does rapists no good, victims no good, and certainly society at large no good.
95
Dr Bob, I'd like to have a conversation with you. how can we connect?
The man in the article is not a "convicted rapist"; the article says he has only been accused, not convicted.
4
This person is not a "convicted rapist", he was never convicted in a court of law. He was judged responsible for sexual misconduct in questionable administrative proceedings where he had fewer chances of mounting a defense that a person accused of shoplifting would have in court.
Despite him never been convicted of rape (or anything), people like you are branding him a "rapist", and his dream of becoming a doctor is shattered.
Despite him never been convicted of rape (or anything), people like you are branding him a "rapist", and his dream of becoming a doctor is shattered.
7
What about harassment, that is a violation of a young woman's civil rights, but it may not be "criminal"? That's where I have seen Title IX implemented with help for the victim. From personal experience, Title IX steps into the area between police action and the right to an education without excessive bullying.
3
Citizen's cannot violate another's civil rights under the law, only governments can -- e.g., governments are enjoined from establishing a religion, individuals are not. Harassment, however, is already a crime.
The response to claims of sexual assault has always required the reasoned balancing of the interests of the accusers and the accused. For too long too many claims have been discouraged or ignored. However, now it seems that the mere suggestion of such misconduct has resulted in the unjust branding of people against whom there has been little evidence as sexual predators.
Clearly, it is reasonable to require more than "she said/he said" evidence ( such as prompt reporting and objective physical evidence) before one can be exiled from school, and it is reasonable to examine whether the pendulum has swung too far in the direction of unfair weight to mere accusations.
The best forum for these investigations is our criminal justice system. It's not perfect but it is the best we have (and certainly better than the "star chambers" of academia with no standards or prerequisites for proof).
I disapprove of the Trump Administration as much as anybody, but this particular inquiry seems appropriate to me
Clearly, it is reasonable to require more than "she said/he said" evidence ( such as prompt reporting and objective physical evidence) before one can be exiled from school, and it is reasonable to examine whether the pendulum has swung too far in the direction of unfair weight to mere accusations.
The best forum for these investigations is our criminal justice system. It's not perfect but it is the best we have (and certainly better than the "star chambers" of academia with no standards or prerequisites for proof).
I disapprove of the Trump Administration as much as anybody, but this particular inquiry seems appropriate to me
8
Every state in the USA has experienced investigators and a court system for adjudicating this crime of rape. Perhaps Betsy could speak to Jeff Sessions and see if we could have a national discussion on the matter and a uniform way of treating it. Felony? Misdemeanor? Why does it vary from state to state?
Colleges are entrusted with their lives of the young students. They need to have adequate campus security to start with. And persuasive orientation periods for incoming students; maybe call one segment; no means no. Call another; alcohol and drugs and living with the negative consequences. Another; see something, say something, do something.
On the family level. I had no trouble giving my son the no-means-no lecture when he was 16. Out on a country road with him at the wheel, turning red with embarrassment at the lecture from his dad, he had no where to escape to. He was and is a good kid but I wanted him to think it out before he went to the Junior Prom. We also talked to our daughter about the dangers of alcohol and drugs and things that would increase her vulnerability in an already unsafe world.
But many parents do not have this chat, and of course some still have kids that put themselves at great risk anyway. Or have kids who are inclined to injure people. And then we have true predators and "roofies" thrown into the mix.
It is a difficult conversation that needs to be had on all levels for real change to be affected. Thanks for bringing it up...
Colleges are entrusted with their lives of the young students. They need to have adequate campus security to start with. And persuasive orientation periods for incoming students; maybe call one segment; no means no. Call another; alcohol and drugs and living with the negative consequences. Another; see something, say something, do something.
On the family level. I had no trouble giving my son the no-means-no lecture when he was 16. Out on a country road with him at the wheel, turning red with embarrassment at the lecture from his dad, he had no where to escape to. He was and is a good kid but I wanted him to think it out before he went to the Junior Prom. We also talked to our daughter about the dangers of alcohol and drugs and things that would increase her vulnerability in an already unsafe world.
But many parents do not have this chat, and of course some still have kids that put themselves at great risk anyway. Or have kids who are inclined to injure people. And then we have true predators and "roofies" thrown into the mix.
It is a difficult conversation that needs to be had on all levels for real change to be affected. Thanks for bringing it up...
4
But you didn't lecture your daughter that "no means no"?
I think Donald Trump is destroying this country and an oppose everything I have heard associated with him and his administration. I work towards preventing his policies being implemented. He must be stopped.
But this could be the only exception among his policies. There are so many stories out there of the pressure from the "dear colleague" letter causing totally unwarranted punishments for consensual sex. For example http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/12/college_rape_camp...
The article states "Jessica Torres, a 27-year-old Democratic strategist, tweeted to Ms. DeVos that she had been raped as a student at Williams College." Rapes should absolutely prosecuted. Nobody is saying it should be swept under the rug. However, the "dear colleague" letter has forced universities to set up kangaroo courts leaving the accused with few rights.
I still hope that Trump's policies are thwarted and the Democrats retake Congress in 2018. But if this policy gets rescinded, then perhaps one single good thing would come out of Trump's election. I never thought I would write something like that.
But this could be the only exception among his policies. There are so many stories out there of the pressure from the "dear colleague" letter causing totally unwarranted punishments for consensual sex. For example http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/12/college_rape_camp...
The article states "Jessica Torres, a 27-year-old Democratic strategist, tweeted to Ms. DeVos that she had been raped as a student at Williams College." Rapes should absolutely prosecuted. Nobody is saying it should be swept under the rug. However, the "dear colleague" letter has forced universities to set up kangaroo courts leaving the accused with few rights.
I still hope that Trump's policies are thwarted and the Democrats retake Congress in 2018. But if this policy gets rescinded, then perhaps one single good thing would come out of Trump's election. I never thought I would write something like that.
1
Ms. DeVos, like the man who appointed her, is manifestly unqualified for her role in government; that said, it is a huge relief that the Education Department is finally taking action to rein in the excesses of college sexual assault proceedings. In an effort to comply with the Dept's Title IX guidelines, universities have adopted policies that would provoke alarm and outrage in any other setting: the accused are denied access to evidence in the cases levied against them; most are denied the right to counsel. Administrators who adjudicate these cases are vulnerable to campaigns of influence and intimidation by students or faculty members with a stated political interest in a guilty "verdict." Even if exonerated, the accused are routinely forced out of their dorms and even their majors.
Sexual assault is a serious crime. Adjudicating these cases with the presumption of guilt, in a parallel legal system denuded of basic protections for the accused, isn't simply a moral outrage for the wrongly convicted -- it has the perverse effect of stoking suspicion and disbelief when legitimate accusations of assault are levied. How does any person or institution benefit from this abhorrent policy?
Sexual assault is a serious crime. Adjudicating these cases with the presumption of guilt, in a parallel legal system denuded of basic protections for the accused, isn't simply a moral outrage for the wrongly convicted -- it has the perverse effect of stoking suspicion and disbelief when legitimate accusations of assault are levied. How does any person or institution benefit from this abhorrent policy?
6
This is yet another distortion wrought by Title 9 and a perfect example of how reliably government's scope will expand until it becomes an egregious overstep.
We would never allow any other group, ex., a minority, to be tried and convicted in this manner. Why is it acceptable for young white males?
We would never allow any other group, ex., a minority, to be tried and convicted in this manner. Why is it acceptable for young white males?
5
I find Ms. Jackson's comments to be troubling on a number of levels, starting here: "not even an accusation that these accused students overrode the will of a young woman.” First, it suggests that rape occurs only when someone fights off a rapist which unconscious, frightened or drunk victims don't/can't. Second, the use of "young woman," completely overlooks that victims are male or intersex, as well as female. Finally, the idea that 90% of claims involve drunk sex is outrageous, unsubstantiated and unworthy of anyone in her position.
And to those who keep asking/suggesting that all these cases be referred to law enforcement, several points: 1) given the sentiment of this Administration, it's not hard to understand that in some instances law enforcement have also been judgmental and victim-blaming, and that a victim might reasonably choose a campus proceeding for that reason alone; 2) the campus process centers the needs of the victim, whether for counseling, moving to a new dorm, or the opportunity to drop/retake a course. None of these options are available if only the criminal process is invoked; 3) and finally, but centrally it should ALWAYS be the choice of the victim to determine what forum she, he or they deem best, given their personal circumstances.
And to those who keep asking/suggesting that all these cases be referred to law enforcement, several points: 1) given the sentiment of this Administration, it's not hard to understand that in some instances law enforcement have also been judgmental and victim-blaming, and that a victim might reasonably choose a campus proceeding for that reason alone; 2) the campus process centers the needs of the victim, whether for counseling, moving to a new dorm, or the opportunity to drop/retake a course. None of these options are available if only the criminal process is invoked; 3) and finally, but centrally it should ALWAYS be the choice of the victim to determine what forum she, he or they deem best, given their personal circumstances.
3
Blackstone famously wrote in the 18th century that "it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
That is the reason why we have due process in this country guaranteed to us by the Constitution, the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard, and the right to a jury trial when accused of serious crimes.
It is entirely possible that lessening the protections for the accused through quasi-judicial boards needs to be examined from a fairness perspective and perhaps a legal perspective.
This examination does not at all take away the urgent need to address the terrible problem of sexual violence on campus.
That is the reason why we have due process in this country guaranteed to us by the Constitution, the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard, and the right to a jury trial when accused of serious crimes.
It is entirely possible that lessening the protections for the accused through quasi-judicial boards needs to be examined from a fairness perspective and perhaps a legal perspective.
This examination does not at all take away the urgent need to address the terrible problem of sexual violence on campus.
4
What's next - making extreme hazing a requirement for graduating?
2
I have had friends who have been sexually assaulted in college and friends who have been falsely accused and then exonerated. Both sets are victims who had their lives torn apart and have had a long road to recovery. The fact is the college is a messy place for relationships, and mature university administrators recognize that. The United States is famous for the words "innocent until proven guilty" something that should apply to a sexual assault cause on or off campus. All too often the process in universities has less to do with justice are more to do with dealing with whoever is better at PR between the accuser and the accused. It is no wonder that even in clear cases of assault, predators find wide support among an incredulous student body who wonder if this is another "overreach" or "regret move." Accusers who blatantly and falsely accuse need to be punished publically to restore confidence in the system so that when someone is accused it is taken seriously, and they know if the accusation is false they will be vindicated with their reputation intact, and justice will be done one way or another. Nothing is worse for a true victim of sexual abuse to see another false accusation unravel their credibility through no fault of theirs.
177
And what happened to the criminals who sexually assaulted your friends? Did they suffer any consequences, or did they get away with it?
False accusations do happen, but they are a very small percentage of crimes. Most of the time, the accused get away with it. False testimony is already punishable by law. We don't need more roadblocks preventing sexual assault victims from reporting.
False reporting of crimes should not be treated as if it is a problem equal to or even approaching the magnitude of sexual assault. You are spreading a myth.
False accusations do happen, but they are a very small percentage of crimes. Most of the time, the accused get away with it. False testimony is already punishable by law. We don't need more roadblocks preventing sexual assault victims from reporting.
False reporting of crimes should not be treated as if it is a problem equal to or even approaching the magnitude of sexual assault. You are spreading a myth.
4
That's one of the major flaws with the current system. Even when the process works properly to uncover a false accusation, other than filing for damages in a civil suit (against a student that rarely has any assets that can be seized to satisfy a judgement), there is no recourse for the falsely accused. At least if the police handle it the accuser could possibly be charged with filing a false report, but like perjury, that's a crime that's almost never prosecuted. And neither the campus kangaroo courts nor the "real" justice system have any provisions that make false reports a crime.
The challenge I have with this perspective is that how do you know your friends who were supposedly falsely accused were not in fact perpetrators? I am a psychologist and researcher in this area and do my best to make people aware that research indicates a small minority of accusations are false. Research indicates a disconnect between what many accused believe to be assault and what many women view as assault though when looking at specific widely held definitions of rape and assault that many accused do not have awareness that their behavior constituted assault. Unfortunately this makes the consequences of such 'messy' interactions no less grave for victims.
2
Title IX doesn’t even mention sexual assault, and it does not require colleges and universities to report sexual assaults, conduct sexual assault investigations or adjourn tribunals to determine guilt or innocence. That burden was imposed on colleges and universities by the infamous “Dear Colleague Letter” issued by the Assistance Secretary of the Office of Civil Rights in April 24, 2013. This letter that redefined “sexual assault” as “sexual harassment” to make it fit within the parameters of legislation designed to ensure college women aren’t denied academic and athletic opportunities due to their gender. The directive exposes U.S. colleges and universities to endless lawsuits by notoriously directing them not to wait for police investigations to run their course, for charges to be filed, or for courts to render verdicts before taking punitive action against the accused. Nearly all the sexual assaults take place off campus. College should refer all allegations of sexual assault they become aware of to police, but that should be the end of their involvement. We don’t require colleges to investigate other crimes their students commit away from campus. The Trump administration should rescind the dear colleague letter.
6
Justice is justice and fair is fair. Our US system of justice uses Beyond a Reasonable Doubt as the standard for judging guilt vs innocence. Colleges -without trained jurists and rules of evidence mind you- use either “preponderance of the evidence” or “clear and convincing”. Neither alternative is acceptable. As many others have stated, get colleges and universities OUT OF criminal investigations and put them to the police and prosecutors. Will some -or many- victims (men and women) decide NOT to proceed? Probably. That is not reason enough to persecute (and prosecute) innocents. As Ms Jackson -"A sexual assault survivor herself" said- 90% of the accusations won't stand up to any legal standard, along the lines of, "we were both drunk."
2
Why didn't you say Falsely Accused? There are documented cases of Title IX false accusations. Title IX must be reformed to support TIX male rights. Currently TIX is so one sided towards females that a new class of false survivors has been created. President Trump and DeVos, and Jackson recognize the presumption of innocence- a foundation for fair treatment in our country. Most women right groups do not, and as a humanist I can't support these mis-guided anti-due process women groups.
7
What clearly escapes many of the readers here is that the Obama administration effectively blackmailed institutions with funding penalties if they did not adjudicate some of these cases themselves and mete out severe punishment in these so-called "kangaroo courts" to any of the accused with much lower threshold for culpability than otherwise would be considered for guilt in a criminal court.
Consider the Trump administration's moves as a step in the right direction. Either seek out help and justice through the local police forces, or back off.
Consider the Trump administration's moves as a step in the right direction. Either seek out help and justice through the local police forces, or back off.
3
This is just another case of a backlash against women when they start standing up for themselves. The scourge of campus rape -- the majority of which is perpetrated by men upon women -- is far, far worse than the 2-8% of false accusations that men must suffer. It is a shame that some men get caught up in false accusations, but that does not mean that we as a society and government should pull back on the efforts to help prevent the crime and outrage of campus rapes, help the victims of campus rapes recover and identify the men that raped them and then prosecute the offenders to the fullest extent of the law. Campus rape is the scourge on our civilization, not the small percent of false accusations. Let those who think otherwise get a grip!
16
have you ever witnessed or gone through the process of it? if you did, then you would understand why this process does need a look at and some reform is definitely necessary. the whole process, even if the falsely accused cries out that he or she is a victim of being falsely accused of sexual harassment and that is suffering in campus life due to labeling from peers, the investigators will start off as that you are guilty until proven innocent. this is not how our legal system works, for a good reason. And it is definitely wrong that, according to your statistics 2 to 8 percent, who get falsely accused must simply just suffer for the rest who needs to get their justice. even if that stat is correct? 2 to 8 percent of hundred thousand cases is very very high number of innocent lives who will suffer for no reason. What needs to be in place is a fairer and more precise measure of investigation and not think of the issue as just men versus women
1
NCHERM group listed 60% of accusations are unfounded on campus.
No, it is not a case of "backlash" against women who stand up for themselves. It is an affront to our nation's most cherished legal principles: the presumption of innocence, due process, a trial by jury, the right to legal counsel. It's terrifying enough that the accused are denied these and other protections in university proceedings.
Even more terrifying is your suggestion that the falsely accused are an acceptable form of collateral damage in a national crackdown on sexual violence. This is anathema to everything our republic was founded on; it is the stuff of theocracies and authoritarian regimes, from Iran to the Philippines. I hate to say it, but the Far Left has far more in common with Donald Trump and his supporters than they care to admit.
Even more terrifying is your suggestion that the falsely accused are an acceptable form of collateral damage in a national crackdown on sexual violence. This is anathema to everything our republic was founded on; it is the stuff of theocracies and authoritarian regimes, from Iran to the Philippines. I hate to say it, but the Far Left has far more in common with Donald Trump and his supporters than they care to admit.
5
It's amazing to me that so-called "women's rights" advocates think that it's just fine to abrogate the protections of due process to ruin men's lives. Far from being an issue of misogyny, there is a strong odor of man-hating. We know (I myself have seen it) that some women fabricate accusations for manipulative purposes. I believe that it is far more common than is generally realized. Oh, and nobody who knows me would label me misogynistic.
10
I support Secretary DeVoss’ effort to review Obama era policies regarding campus rape, just as I support the overall effort by the Trump administration to thoroughly review all Obama era policies and regulations and rollback those that overreach. I have read many stories reported in the New York Times over the past years about campus rape. In many of the cases, the victims seem to have put themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time. By that statement I am not condoning the behavior of the abuser, attacker, or rapist, as they are part of the wrong place at the wrong time situation, they wrong people, if you will. If had children in college my advice to them would be to stay out of dangerous situations, go out in groups of friends, and be very selective in who you go out with one on one. Note that I have used gender neutral pronouns in discussing this issue as I believe both male, female, and transgender students can be victims of campus rape. It is just a matter of coincidence that complaints from male students have brought about the timely need for this policy review.
4
"By that statement I am not condoning the behavior of the abuser, attacker, or rapist"
No, but you are blaming the victim.
"as I believe both male, female, and transgender students can be victims of campus rape."
The overall rape numbers indicate that women are still more likely to be the victims than men.
No, but you are blaming the victim.
"as I believe both male, female, and transgender students can be victims of campus rape."
The overall rape numbers indicate that women are still more likely to be the victims than men.
5
@Bill B.
The victim should not put themselves in the situation in which they may be sexually assaulted. The victim could be male, female, or transgender. Yes, men are raped too. Maybe the statistics say otherwise, but rape is rape, no matter who is raped. I support DeVos.
The victim should not put themselves in the situation in which they may be sexually assaulted. The victim could be male, female, or transgender. Yes, men are raped too. Maybe the statistics say otherwise, but rape is rape, no matter who is raped. I support DeVos.
"Maybe the statistics say otherwise, but rape is rape, no matter who is raped."
Yes, but it matters that women are more likely to be the victim as it speaks to the pathology of rape.
Blaming the victim is morally untenable.
Yes, but it matters that women are more likely to be the victim as it speaks to the pathology of rape.
Blaming the victim is morally untenable.
As someone who is going through the title ix process right now with my son, it is terrible. Even after we provided the school with 10+ witnesses, text messages, website postings, taunts by the accuser, we are still the one's left to prove he is innocent. It is an absolute shame that false claims are made, and innocent people have to suffer like this. Shame on the accuser from taking advantage of a real and serious issue and shame on the schools for indulging them with an investigation.
42
Growing up, I never knew of any claims of assault or rape in the context of the typical dating scene. I would tend to think (without evidence) that the woman is telling the truth if a claim is made. Having said that, there are some instances where there is clear motivation to make up a story. I have direct knowledge of this for a kid I knew.
Some girls from another county had come to the kid's town to a local hangout and met the kid and his friends. The girls were white and the boys were black. The girls wanted to party, and the boys knew a place. They took separate cars. Partying began. The kid left with one of the girls and they went to another nearby place to have purported consensual sex. The kid had never had any problem getting dates and did not have any history of assault. While gone, one of the other kids at the other place, who had a gun, decided to rob the other girl. They then left and dropped the girl off - she promptly called the law. The other kid and girl returned to the house and met the law. The girl, who was related to law enforcement, freaked and claimed she had been raped. The kid was charged and awaited a trial.
Later, the girls were arrested for armed robbery. Consequently, the DA offered a reduced plea for the kid who accepted on advice of counsel because he was facing a potentially long prison term. His chances for normal employment were ruined and he lives a life of poverty.
Moral: Once in the legal system, you can be ruined even if innocent.
Some girls from another county had come to the kid's town to a local hangout and met the kid and his friends. The girls were white and the boys were black. The girls wanted to party, and the boys knew a place. They took separate cars. Partying began. The kid left with one of the girls and they went to another nearby place to have purported consensual sex. The kid had never had any problem getting dates and did not have any history of assault. While gone, one of the other kids at the other place, who had a gun, decided to rob the other girl. They then left and dropped the girl off - she promptly called the law. The other kid and girl returned to the house and met the law. The girl, who was related to law enforcement, freaked and claimed she had been raped. The kid was charged and awaited a trial.
Later, the girls were arrested for armed robbery. Consequently, the DA offered a reduced plea for the kid who accepted on advice of counsel because he was facing a potentially long prison term. His chances for normal employment were ruined and he lives a life of poverty.
Moral: Once in the legal system, you can be ruined even if innocent.
6
The legal system can be "blind" to innocence. A lie about guilt is more likely to believed than the truth about innocense. No one believes in innocence.
To those prosecuting crimes, the glass is not only not half full, it's half empty and you stole the water.
To those prosecuting crimes, the glass is not only not half full, it's half empty and you stole the water.
2
Anyone could tell you that you should not wrongfully accuse someone of assault. Not everyone could tell you what defines consent. Let's focus on the real issues here.
4
Title IX is used by victims because colleges, their private police forces, and neighboring police have for too long ignored the cries of rape victims. When actually convicted these (mostly) men are given wrist-slaps as punishments.
Now the arbiter of what is rape is a woman who uses political affiliation to determine that one man harasses women (Clinton) and another did not (Trump).
Justice !?
Now the arbiter of what is rape is a woman who uses political affiliation to determine that one man harasses women (Clinton) and another did not (Trump).
Justice !?
11
why is it even legal for campus security agencies and university committees to handle complaints of violent assault? why are these complaints not handled by actual law enforcement investigators and criminal prosecutors?
why have we engineered an absurd system in which a man commits rape and his punishment is not criminal sentencing, but instead an ejection from a wrestling team? are we as a society actually intentionally attempting to encourage rape on college campuses? what i mean is, that is exactly what we're doing; im asking if its intentional
these are not rhetorical questions; ive never heard a satisfactory explanation regarding this absurdity
why have we engineered an absurd system in which a man commits rape and his punishment is not criminal sentencing, but instead an ejection from a wrestling team? are we as a society actually intentionally attempting to encourage rape on college campuses? what i mean is, that is exactly what we're doing; im asking if its intentional
these are not rhetorical questions; ive never heard a satisfactory explanation regarding this absurdity
7
There has been such an enormous shift in norms in the past few years regarding sexual assault. That is good and necessary, but bound to generate backlash. I was in college less than a decade ago, and drunken sex was the norm. Literally the norm. Obviously never with a girl who was passed out or close to it. But the standard used to be that as long as both man and woman were enthusiastic participants it didn't really cross the line. Now that is rape, even if the man is equally or more intoxicated. That is an enormous change, and it will take time to filter through into the minds of young men.
The problem is that these lines of appropriate behavior have not been fully established. People pretend that everything is black and white, but they is an enormous gray area. If a man and woman each have 4 drinks and then have enthusiastic sex is that rape? Five drinks? Six? I honestly don't know, and I think neither do most men. As a society we will have to clarify those boundaries, which will be a long and painful process.
The problem is that these lines of appropriate behavior have not been fully established. People pretend that everything is black and white, but they is an enormous gray area. If a man and woman each have 4 drinks and then have enthusiastic sex is that rape? Five drinks? Six? I honestly don't know, and I think neither do most men. As a society we will have to clarify those boundaries, which will be a long and painful process.
8
Stop and think abut this. Why is it a topic for the federal government? Why did Obama issue rules.Why is DeVos missing rules. Rape is an awful crime but it is not a federal crime nor should it be.. The States and the local communities are the ones to be handling this. The is simply another instance of the Federal Government overstepping its authority. Stop getting emotionally involved in the problem and ask the question. Why is the Federal government involved?
12
Maybe because the states failed to do the job adequately? Also, many of these schools receive federal funding of some sort. So, if they do, then they have to comply with the Fed gov.
6
because colleges and local officials won't deal with it.
7
Most of us have already thought about this long enough to know that sex discrimination is a federal matter. It isn't about making rape a federal crime but about sexual assault as a gender matter.
3
Rape cases are complex and have lifetime consequences for all involved. With that reality in mind they belong exclusively being addressed by our criminal justice system where the expertise and resources are there to make the most accurate and fair ruling possible. Where they don't belong is with bureaucrats, politicians, and universities. This is one more area where the former president and his administration overreached and another opportunity for the present one to undue their damage. Obama's legacy rests largely with the actions he made unilaterally through the administrative state. Eliminate them and you largely eliminate him from history. He earned it.
4
The rape survivor should have a choice of (a) going directly to the police, or (b) going to campus officials (who are responsible for security) with desired outcome; if campus officials believe that a rape occurred, and they cannot get the rapist to provide the desired outcome, they should then turn it over to the police, so the rapist can be punished.
Hopefully, the judicial system will purge itself of horrible judges like Aaron Persky, so that appropriate punishment will occur (3 months for Rapist Brock Turner was far too little; I hope he lives in shame for the rest of his life).
Some college women who are raped may prefer a "desired outcome" that is more useful than what is available through criminal justice. For instance, in the Rapist Brock Turner case, "Jane Doe" may have preferred a resolution where (a) Turner left Stanford, (b) Turner made a financial payment to Doe, and (c) Stanford imposed standards on campus-affiliated groups to prevent other Rapist Brock Turners from forcing themselves on Jane Does.
Hopefully, the judicial system will purge itself of horrible judges like Aaron Persky, so that appropriate punishment will occur (3 months for Rapist Brock Turner was far too little; I hope he lives in shame for the rest of his life).
Some college women who are raped may prefer a "desired outcome" that is more useful than what is available through criminal justice. For instance, in the Rapist Brock Turner case, "Jane Doe" may have preferred a resolution where (a) Turner left Stanford, (b) Turner made a financial payment to Doe, and (c) Stanford imposed standards on campus-affiliated groups to prevent other Rapist Brock Turners from forcing themselves on Jane Does.
2
I agree here with those who say that Universities should not be involved in "litigating" charges of sexual assault. This should be the purview of law enforcement, period. That many of the accused and victims are minors complicates the issue. More research is needed to find any commonality a,omg the situation surrounding these assaults.
We have seen what happens when investigations and punishment of sexual assault (AKA sex abuse) are left to the hierarchy "in house." For example, in the past, investigations of sexual assaults by priests were left to the local archdioceses in which they occurred. To wit, the offending priests were shuttled to new assignments or "allowed" to retire thus leaving those priests to continue their egregious ILLEGAL behaviors and leaving the victims of the assault to deal with the pain, misguided shame, and anguish without any vindication until, finally, many years later these crimes were brought to light.
There is a problem here though. For many reasons, law enforcement and corresponding local district attorneys don't have a really good records of charging and prosecuting sexual assault. This gives little comfort to the victims. Rape kits sit in storage all over our country and are being systematically destroyed in many jurisdictions.
Not only should the responsibility to adjudicate these crimes not be left to the Universities in which they occur but law enforcement must improve the way it deals with these crimes.
We have seen what happens when investigations and punishment of sexual assault (AKA sex abuse) are left to the hierarchy "in house." For example, in the past, investigations of sexual assaults by priests were left to the local archdioceses in which they occurred. To wit, the offending priests were shuttled to new assignments or "allowed" to retire thus leaving those priests to continue their egregious ILLEGAL behaviors and leaving the victims of the assault to deal with the pain, misguided shame, and anguish without any vindication until, finally, many years later these crimes were brought to light.
There is a problem here though. For many reasons, law enforcement and corresponding local district attorneys don't have a really good records of charging and prosecuting sexual assault. This gives little comfort to the victims. Rape kits sit in storage all over our country and are being systematically destroyed in many jurisdictions.
Not only should the responsibility to adjudicate these crimes not be left to the Universities in which they occur but law enforcement must improve the way it deals with these crimes.
5
Innocent until proven guilty. It's a great standard that prevents things such as the Salem Witch Trials and the current campus trend. Regret does not imply rape. Guilty-once-accused is not a defendable legal standard. Bravo to Candace Jackson for continuing to recognize this truth. Thank goodness some rational thought is coming out in this.
10
The current situation is actually worse than the Salem witch trials. In those trials, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts referred to those standing trial as "the accused" until such point that they were actually legally convicted by a jury of their peers of witchcraft. Under the system advocated by the carceral feminist lobby, an uncorroborated rape accusation is all that's required for the alleged perpetrator to be labelled a "rapist," and the accuser to be referred to as the "victim".
Rape is a matter for the courts to deal with after a through investigation by the pertinent police authorities. It would seem appropriate, that after charges are bought, that the accused person be suspended from attending classes or residing on campus where the assault occurred. I think that should be the only participation of college authorities. Let the police, attorneys, jurors and courts do the work of finding guilt or innocence. That is their job. College administrators should only report as necessary, and let the law work.
2
Women who apologize for being sexually assaulted need more counseling. Ms. Jackson clearly has never fully recovered from her sexual assault, but more likely turned to the fake Christians that so over populate the GOP for comfort. Instead they told her it was all her fault for being a woman and to accept her fate and as punishment, go out into the world and ensure that no other women ever receives justice for being sexually assaulted. Since trump not only raped his first wife, he also raped his daughter, a 13 year old girl, and who knows how many others, it's only logical he would hire only women who hate themselves and their gender.
3
Rape is a felony, deadly serious. Accordingly, U.S. rules of jurisprudence provide due process to protect both sides, which is not occurring on campuses. Accusations of rape should not be investigated by amateurs, particularly those predisposed to find a certain outcome. It should be handled by police and district attorneys and subject to the normal rules of evidence in criminal proceedings.
10
Yes, a rape or other crime committed on campus should always be investigated and adjudicated, but that is the job of the police and the courts, not of ad hoc committees at colleges and universities. Serious crime requires a serious process. Our criminal justice system has evolved over more than two centuries and is grounded in the United States Constitution and the laws of our nation and states. It is set up to protect the rights of the victim, the accused, and society at large. It's procedures and rules are acceptable for the treatment of crime and criminals throughout the United States and should work on campuses. The present system of using colleges in place of police, the courts, and the adversarial pursuit of the truth and justice by competing lawyers and investigators seems not to have satisfied anyone. The Department of Education should issue one instruction to colleges: if a student complains of sexual assault or rape, provide counseling and refer to hospital for a rape kit and to the real police for an actual investigation.
2
When someone is promoted beyond her experience and skill set, it is vastly disappointing, but unfortunately not surprising, to find her uninformed and unqualified...
5
Title IX of the Higher Education Act prohibits discrimination: "No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance [i.e., assistance from the U.S. Government]."
Part of the problem has to be that OCR has been trying to use this law, which is about university programs or activities discriminating on the basis of gender [sex], as if it were a law about individual persons committing sexual assault. Sexual assault is the subject of various laws, but Title IX just happens not to be one of them.
Part of the problem has to be that OCR has been trying to use this law, which is about university programs or activities discriminating on the basis of gender [sex], as if it were a law about individual persons committing sexual assault. Sexual assault is the subject of various laws, but Title IX just happens not to be one of them.
Guilty until provrn innocent is the new normal for a country which tortures, conducts sweeping domestic surveillance, has militarized its police, drone lynches, inflicts civil asset forfeiture and operates Gulagtanamo on the soil of one of the last vestiges of Stalinism.
1
If someone commits a crime against me I report it to the police. I don't report it to owner of the property where it occurred. The police are the experts on responding to crimes. That's what they do.
7
You don't also tell your neighbors of, say, a robbery? So they can potentially protect themselves? A university is a community and has a duty to protect its members.
2
Literally, my jaw dropped and I was dumbfounded.
"Rather, the accusations — 90 percent of them — fall into the category of ‘we were both drunk,’ ‘we broke up, and six months later I found myself under a Title IX investigation because she just decided that our last sleeping together was not quite right.'”
I can't imagine this is who Trump/DeVos chose to head the Office for Civil Rights. I can't understand how she was even considered.
"Rather, the accusations — 90 percent of them — fall into the category of ‘we were both drunk,’ ‘we broke up, and six months later I found myself under a Title IX investigation because she just decided that our last sleeping together was not quite right.'”
I can't imagine this is who Trump/DeVos chose to head the Office for Civil Rights. I can't understand how she was even considered.
7
The Trump misogyny bandwagon rolls on.
11
I understand that it must be impossible for a parent to look at their college-aged son/daughter and see a rapist. Therefore, when such accusations are leveled at said son or daughter, the parent only sees something fraudulent and done with the intention of imposing the ultimate revenge after a bad break up.
It's rape when one of the two does not consent and I realize that's it's not always as clear cut as an emphatic "NO!" Rape is when one partner cannot consent or does not consent, as in being passed out or frozen with fear. If the person you're with seems incredibly uncomfortable, you need to ask them if what you're doing is okay. Don't assume they're just playing coy.
We shouldn't charge in and start ruining the lives of the accused, but that doesn't mean we need to ignore the victim either. There isn't an easy answer, unfortunately, as things that are done in secret may not be easy to prove.
Maybe parents need to be warning their children to be careful what they do and who they do it with, not just for the purpose of safety, but also the potential to be accused.
It's rape when one of the two does not consent and I realize that's it's not always as clear cut as an emphatic "NO!" Rape is when one partner cannot consent or does not consent, as in being passed out or frozen with fear. If the person you're with seems incredibly uncomfortable, you need to ask them if what you're doing is okay. Don't assume they're just playing coy.
We shouldn't charge in and start ruining the lives of the accused, but that doesn't mean we need to ignore the victim either. There isn't an easy answer, unfortunately, as things that are done in secret may not be easy to prove.
Maybe parents need to be warning their children to be careful what they do and who they do it with, not just for the purpose of safety, but also the potential to be accused.
2
This is long overdue. If a crime is alleged by a credible accuser to have been committed, it should indeed be adjudicated, by the courts. But not by university administrators.
8
Rape victims need to report to the police. I know it's hard, and unfortunately the victim too often gets victimized again via the legal system but rape is a serious charge. I would not want my granddaughters to stay silent about rape. I would not want my grandsons lives ruined because of a false accusation. Students should go the police, not the Dean. With DNA evidence it should be easy to indicate who did what to whom, (even if a condom is used or other factors play in, DNA is left on the victim in one way or another) and things should go forward through the courts when warranted. I'm not sure why we are asking other entities to take the place of the police and the courts. ANY institution should foster an environment where sexual abuse is easily recognizable and where support for those who feel they are victims is offered.. but leave the rest to the legal system.
2
The problem is that when a student is accused of anything at a college university, that student does not have the same due process rights as they would if formally charged outside of college campus. For example, they do not have the right to an attorney to be appointed if they can't afford an attorney. Even if they can afford an attorney, many colleges don't allow the attorney to represent them in a hearing. Also various hearsay evidence is admitted by college tribunals which would not be admitted in a regular court. We can support due process and also protect victims of crime by trying such cases via regular court system,
7
This doesn't surprise me at all. Whenever there is an article dealing a rape the comment board is flooded with comments desiring to keep the world safer for rapists by means of victim blaming, excuses, denials, and justifications. Nor does it surprise me that these men wouldn't get a sympathetic ear from the administration whose leader bragging stops just short of rape. And who was elected in spite of, or because of it.
Predators not only try to keep the world safe for themselves, and by their actions other predators. And predators are smart enough make sure they have plausible deniability, leave insufficient evidence, or select victims less likely to go to court or be believed. They know the system will judge the victims in harsh light of day and by cold logic of what they would claim they would do if they were a woman in that circumstance. .
And BTW their lives are not over. Maybe their actions derailed their carefully laid plans, and if they are guilty, that is part of the deal but because someone is weak enough to want to kill themselves should not be an excise to not hold people accountable for their actions.
Predators not only try to keep the world safe for themselves, and by their actions other predators. And predators are smart enough make sure they have plausible deniability, leave insufficient evidence, or select victims less likely to go to court or be believed. They know the system will judge the victims in harsh light of day and by cold logic of what they would claim they would do if they were a woman in that circumstance. .
And BTW their lives are not over. Maybe their actions derailed their carefully laid plans, and if they are guilty, that is part of the deal but because someone is weak enough to want to kill themselves should not be an excise to not hold people accountable for their actions.
4
And once again Betsy DeVos shows us why she really is the worst of the worst in the Trump's cabinet.
5
I ask these question from a unbiased position.
Why are the local police and law enforcement authorities not as responsible for pursuing allegations of rape on college campuses as a rape that occurs in any other location? Is it because colleges want to protect their reputations by controlling the process?
Letting the police and the criminal justice system do their job would mean clearer penalties for the perpetrator and due process for the accused. An 18 year old women who is the victim of sexual predation suffers the same whether she is a college freshman or a recent high school graduate working at a minimum wage job. Or do we not see it that way? Do we view one event as being distinct from the other?
Why are the local police and law enforcement authorities not as responsible for pursuing allegations of rape on college campuses as a rape that occurs in any other location? Is it because colleges want to protect their reputations by controlling the process?
Letting the police and the criminal justice system do their job would mean clearer penalties for the perpetrator and due process for the accused. An 18 year old women who is the victim of sexual predation suffers the same whether she is a college freshman or a recent high school graduate working at a minimum wage job. Or do we not see it that way? Do we view one event as being distinct from the other?
376
2 generations ago I thought we got rid of the in loco parentis role for colleges. Now the colleges are expected to stand in for the courts. An assault is an assault, not mere indecorous behavior. And with the low standard for "proof" there really is a presumption of guilt. Let the police and courts do their jobs. Why should college women (and men too) have some higher standard of protection that the non college population? Beats me. Oh, because the colleges get federal funds, right? But so do ALL of the states.
6
I totally agree, and on top of that, I think we should roll back smoking and drinking age to 18 all states so that they will go through the courts without any biases
This is a common concern, but it's rooted in the very power structure of universities. Crimes are not reported to the real police because it is a way to protect students from the legal ramifications of their crimes. I would conjecture that the people being protected are the young men who commit most college crimes, mostly sexual assault related. That young man in the story who got kicked out of school actually avoided going to jail, didn't he, in spite of his ruined hopes and dreams, at least he didn't go to jail. I doubt if any changes happen they will result in more reporting to the police. Most likely, it will simply weaken the protections of victimized campus populations.
1
There is absolutely no reason for universities to set up these kangaroo courts to "try" offenders. Any kind of sexual assault needs to go to the police and be dealt with my our judicial system. I cannot believe that it should be the policy in this country of allowing people utterly unqualified in the law to decide on whether or not to mete out serious punishments. It's just wrong.
350
Understand that the University cannot send a person to jail, they can just remove them from the school. Read the book Missoula by John Krakauer for a better understanding of university vs civil/criminal prosecution. They are very different.
3
DeVos doesn't just believe in patriarchal christianity, she believes in dominionism. Male domininace is at the heart of all of it. She is the best argument there is for taking rape - and all other criminal investigations - out of the hands of university administrators. Criminal investigations - and rape is criminal - should be undertaken by law enforcement and prosecuting attorney offices.
244
university "courts" are nothing but kangaroo courts. They have little t o know experience in dealing with facts (unlike a prosecutor), a very large proportion, if not most, give the defendant no right to defend themselves and many are packed with those who would always find accused men guilty no matter what. This has to stop.
8
I have no idea what university administrators are doing involved in rape cases in the first place. Do they investigate murders on campus as well?
"Excuse me, detectives...Dean Wormer coming through!"
"Excuse me, detectives...Dean Wormer coming through!"
5
DeVos didn't put rape into the hands of colleges, Obama did. Title IX has been misappropriated by the DOE dept of civil rights. A crime needs to be investigated by the police and justice system. Not colleges, not the DOE, and not civil rights groups. It's a crime to rape any woman, girl, man, or boy. Period. Doesn't matter where it happens! AND, in the US anyway, both the accused and the accuser must have due process. Universities are in no position to comply with due process. They are not police, prosecutor, attorney, or judge. They are educators.
In 2011, Obama and his DOE decided that they could make up laws, re-interpret Title IX. "in Davis v. Monroe County Board of Education (1999), the Supreme Court held that educational institutions could be held liable, under Title IX, for alleged student-on-student sexual harassment — but only in unusually aggravated circumstances: where the schools “are deliberately indifferent to sexual harassment, of which they have actual knowledge, that is so severe, pervasive, and objectively offensive that it can be said to deprive the victims of access to the educational opportunities or benefits provided by the school.”
One of Obama's worst qualities as president was his belief that he was ruler, that he could interpret laws any way he chose, and that anyone that disagreed was racist, sexist, xenophobic, or otherwise not to be heard. He continues in that vein today. For me, this takes away from the pluses of his admin.
In 2011, Obama and his DOE decided that they could make up laws, re-interpret Title IX. "in Davis v. Monroe County Board of Education (1999), the Supreme Court held that educational institutions could be held liable, under Title IX, for alleged student-on-student sexual harassment — but only in unusually aggravated circumstances: where the schools “are deliberately indifferent to sexual harassment, of which they have actual knowledge, that is so severe, pervasive, and objectively offensive that it can be said to deprive the victims of access to the educational opportunities or benefits provided by the school.”
One of Obama's worst qualities as president was his belief that he was ruler, that he could interpret laws any way he chose, and that anyone that disagreed was racist, sexist, xenophobic, or otherwise not to be heard. He continues in that vein today. For me, this takes away from the pluses of his admin.
1
And how many pregnant women have lost their careers or scholarships due to shame and little support? Have any considered suicide? Women are more likely to consider a life of sacrifice, but you don't know.....
58
what evidence can you provide to show that women have suffered more than falsely accused men? It sounds like you are just assuming it. Misandry at its best.
6
I am as upset as most readers about the many terrible Trump policies but pumping the brakes on the true witch hunt taking place on college campuses is a smart move. Most "rape" in these cases turns out to be some other thing upon examination. A failed attempt at a kiss or even a hug has been and can be claimed as rape. There is an alarming pattern of "victims" claiming victimization only after being rejected. Regrettable sexual encounters and even drunk sexual encounters are not rape unless the sex was forced. Colleges should refer actual, credible claims of rape (i.e. forced sex) to the cops.
180
"Most rape" cases? Please cite your sources. Tell me where a failed kiss is claimed as rape.
Your reply is a perfect example of "rape culture." You have proved none of your arguments, show no concern for victim, and worry only about men who sexually assault.
Your reply is a perfect example of "rape culture." You have proved none of your arguments, show no concern for victim, and worry only about men who sexually assault.
18
You do not know whether "Most rape claims" turn out to be something else. Historical evidence suggests that most rape claims on campuses are "something else" simply because the universities have neither the skills or experience to investigate properly.
So while you're rightly lobbying for rape to be investigated by the police rather than the college, you're still victim-blaming.
So while you're rightly lobbying for rape to be investigated by the police rather than the college, you're still victim-blaming.
9
not for the colleges to determine what is credible, that's for police/jury.
5
Rape and assault are serious crimes, calling for investigation and eventual prosecution by professionals in real courts before real judges. Ed Dept policies press institutions to establish what are essentially Star Chamber proceedings, because there is no right to confrontation and the standard of proof is about as rigorous as a small claims court matter. These policies exemplify an abuse of the administrative process as they aren't embodied in rules subject to comment and then challenge in Federal court. If Ed Dept thinks an institution is in violation of A. IX, it should be required to go to Federal Court, not bully a college into changing policies -- this would become moot if it were just a matter for the police and local DA.
89
Universities should not be in charge of investigating a rape claim. If the claim is of unlawful sexual contact, including rape, the charge should be referred to the police and the appropriate prosecutor. They have the ultimate legal authority and responsibility to investigate and prosecute violations of law. There is absolutely no point of asking rank amateurs in our universities to do a parallel investigation under different rules. This is what the universities are asked to do under title 9, and it is an utterly stupid idea to ask them to do it.
562
Bill, you expressed my sentiments exactly. Why are crimes of sexual assault handled by universities and colleges, and not by the police and prosecutors?
63
To be clear, universities are not coming to legal conclusions about rape or assault. They are charged with determining whether college policy has been broken. At most, a school can expel a student who can then go on and apply to another school. Every school that I am aware of, including the one where I teach, encourages victims to go to the police with their claims, but this is not something the university can mandate.
2
Yea! Some common sense and protection of due process!!!!
1
Rape is horrific on all sides. That said, there are far more women who do not get justice after a rape than there are falsely accused rapists who do not get justice. What I don't understand, is why this crime is not just a police matter, plain and simple. Why do educational institutions have any role here at all?
The only responsibility of educational institution is to make sure that the campus has appropriate security. If they do not, it's a separate issue. Everything else should be left up to the police.
If someone is charged or convicted of rape or of falsely accusing someone of rape, then the educational institution can make a decision about whether they attend classes or not.
The fact that DeVos is addressing this at all shows a lack of common sense.
The only responsibility of educational institution is to make sure that the campus has appropriate security. If they do not, it's a separate issue. Everything else should be left up to the police.
If someone is charged or convicted of rape or of falsely accusing someone of rape, then the educational institution can make a decision about whether they attend classes or not.
The fact that DeVos is addressing this at all shows a lack of common sense.
312
I think the point is that currently, on campus, it is not just a police matter.
Police matter would mean someone would get charged if there is a reasonable expectation that a jury would find the alleged offender guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
On campus, the standard to expel an alleged offender is instead guilty based on a preponderance of evidence.
This may sound like an only subtle difference, but in reality it is huge.
Criminal justice philosophy: better let 10 guilty walk free than wrongly imprison 1 innocent.
"preponderence of evidence" philosophy: try to get about the same number of guilty walking free and of innocents being convicted (in this case expelled from university).
Police matter would mean someone would get charged if there is a reasonable expectation that a jury would find the alleged offender guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
On campus, the standard to expel an alleged offender is instead guilty based on a preponderance of evidence.
This may sound like an only subtle difference, but in reality it is huge.
Criminal justice philosophy: better let 10 guilty walk free than wrongly imprison 1 innocent.
"preponderence of evidence" philosophy: try to get about the same number of guilty walking free and of innocents being convicted (in this case expelled from university).
2
Common sense is not allowing a college administrator or panel make decisions in a criminal matter.
10
I have no doubt that's true -- and that's the way it should be. There are voices asserting that the system is "biased against rape victims" or "biased against women". It's not -- it's biased against accusers and biased towards the accused because that's the way the law is actually SUPPOSED to work. The principle that it is better that 100 guilty men go free than a single innocent be punished is a foundation of the justice system. Certain feminists are attempting to assert that rape represents some special category of crime where this principle should not be applied, just as others have attempted to do the same to accused terrorists. If we saw a situation in which almost all rape accusations resulted in convictions, that should be properly interpreted as a sign that the system is not functioning properly. I'm much more concerned about the thousands of innocents behind bars in the USA than I am about the guilty ones walking around unpunished.
5
There is something profoundly wrong with an abuse survivor, as Ms. Jackson is described, leading the charge to weaken protections for other women, all because it's so hard on those accused.
The bias against women of this administration and the Republicans party is the best explanation for how investigations under Pres. Obama's administration could turn up "jaw-dropping degrees of non-compliance" and under Trump allege that 90% of accusations are unfounded.
The bias against women of this administration and the Republicans party is the best explanation for how investigations under Pres. Obama's administration could turn up "jaw-dropping degrees of non-compliance" and under Trump allege that 90% of accusations are unfounded.
148
Please read the last paragraph of the article. She is trying to restore balance.
2
"all because it's so hard on those accused. "
rape is a real crime that needs to be handled by a real court and real police. Not university kangaroo courts. Many of these, if not the majority, do not provide the accused even a right to defend themselves as well as having no experience dealing with real evidence (unlike a real prosecutor).
rape is a real crime that needs to be handled by a real court and real police. Not university kangaroo courts. Many of these, if not the majority, do not provide the accused even a right to defend themselves as well as having no experience dealing with real evidence (unlike a real prosecutor).
8
Taking away due process protections now to make up for deficiencies in the way previous administrations did or did not handle sexual assault isnt the answer. Both sides are hurt by the current process. Real victims' experiences are being belitttled by uni's calling drunken consensual sex rape, and accused's lives are being ruined by the incompetence of this process. Females are also being accused and expelled without due process. No one is immune. I don't understand why feminists think due process is finite. It's not. You don't have to take away from one to give to the other. If finding the truth is the real end game, both sides need to present their evidence...to the police.
3
Many of us ask ourselves what our responsibility is towards our country in these troubled times. For Elizabeth DeVos, the answer is a listening tour for mens rights.
113
Title IX needs to keep what supports any reporting assault, but it also needs procedural protections to ensure innocent students aren't wrongly found responsible. Being marked a sexual predator, even if only by inept college administrators, is life destroying. If you are a rapist, that punishment is way too lenient (expulsion) if you are innocent, it is devastating and a great injustice.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/08/29/toxic-envi...
http://reason.com/blog/2017/02/27/interview-student-expelled-for-rape-even
https://thefederalist.com/2017/07/11/allegheny-college-settles-student-p...
Do some research into the journeys of innocent students on campus, and understand that fairness and balance is needed.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/08/29/toxic-envi...
http://reason.com/blog/2017/02/27/interview-student-expelled-for-rape-even
https://thefederalist.com/2017/07/11/allegheny-college-settles-student-p...
Do some research into the journeys of innocent students on campus, and understand that fairness and balance is needed.
6
How about a listening tour for HUMAN rights?
People (men or women) having their lives ruined by institutions without a shred of evidence of wrongdoing should be a concern for all.
People (men or women) having their lives ruined by institutions without a shred of evidence of wrongdoing should be a concern for all.
5
Our responsibility is the same as it has always been: to obey the law, to work within the system for change, and to speak out against the loathsome and despicable evil now "governing" the White House and Congress.
"A good, hard-hitting dissent keeps you honest." --Antonin Scalia
"A good, hard-hitting dissent keeps you honest." --Antonin Scalia
The hopes and dreams, the academic and athletic accomplishments of the accused should not enter into this. If a rape (or other crime) has been committed, that should be adjudicated. Being an Honor Student is no free pass for a rapist.
355
And if a rape has not been committed, then what? Should the accused still suffer? Because that's the point of this article -- the epidemic of false rape accusations against men is ruining their lives unfairly.
114
Exactly. After all, the hopes and dreams of the victims are never even considered. Being accused of rape ruined your career plans? 'Wonder what being raped would have done to them.
219
Two wrongs do not make a right.
1
It's O.K. by me for a victim to go to the University or College authorities. However, those authorities should be if they are not already be required to file a criminal complaint of a serious crime with the local police. If someone brfeaks into the Deans office and steals stuff, the cops are called....It's a crime. what's the difference?
If a social worker finds kids that are being beaten, they are are required by federal Law to involve the police. whats the difference?