So 194 countries signed the Paris Accord. I believe the G20 includes China. So out of the 194 countries ~175 are considered developing, which means they stand to gain financially from the $100 billion per year "Green Fund" and have no binding commitment to reduce their carbon emissions. China, a developing country, has now become the world's largest emitter of CO2, a trace gas that makes life possible on our beautiful planet. The Paris Accord was pure Progressive Left ideology. An absolutely stupid agreement for developing countries and one American taxpayers should be thankful has been scrapped by President Trump.
1
So the high priests and acolytes of ACGW can understand informed skepticism -- here are chief issues with the "science."
1) The global temp record since 1980 is unreliable. Simply put -- on a global basis outside of the US and most of Europe there has not been sufficient sampling in the form of ground weather stations to provide the reliability needed to produce valid data. For example -- in 1880 Africa had roughly 50 stations, almost all along the coast. Today, it's about 500. Conversely the US had 1000 in 1900 and 9k now. Similar limited coverage occurs for S. America, Russia, Asia, the poles, Alaska. -- in short the vast bulk of the earth's land mass.
2) At the same time, contiguous US temp record since 1900 only shows normal variation. And US has the greatest concentration of weather stations --reliability.
3) Similarly, the historical record for atmospheric CO2 is unreliable until perhaps 1960. Statements like the "unprecedented rise in CO2 and temperatures since the industrial revolution" are preposterous.
4) Global population growth has been roughly 6-7x since 1880s. Much of that is urban. Not only in cities but in adjoining suburbs. The majority of temp stations are located in urban environments. The Urban Heat Island effect ihas not been fully accounted for in global temp computations.
5) Predictions of future states over a long time horizon -- say 30+ years -- are not falsifiable in any practical way.
These points can't be refuted.
1) The global temp record since 1980 is unreliable. Simply put -- on a global basis outside of the US and most of Europe there has not been sufficient sampling in the form of ground weather stations to provide the reliability needed to produce valid data. For example -- in 1880 Africa had roughly 50 stations, almost all along the coast. Today, it's about 500. Conversely the US had 1000 in 1900 and 9k now. Similar limited coverage occurs for S. America, Russia, Asia, the poles, Alaska. -- in short the vast bulk of the earth's land mass.
2) At the same time, contiguous US temp record since 1900 only shows normal variation. And US has the greatest concentration of weather stations --reliability.
3) Similarly, the historical record for atmospheric CO2 is unreliable until perhaps 1960. Statements like the "unprecedented rise in CO2 and temperatures since the industrial revolution" are preposterous.
4) Global population growth has been roughly 6-7x since 1880s. Much of that is urban. Not only in cities but in adjoining suburbs. The majority of temp stations are located in urban environments. The Urban Heat Island effect ihas not been fully accounted for in global temp computations.
5) Predictions of future states over a long time horizon -- say 30+ years -- are not falsifiable in any practical way.
These points can't be refuted.
1
Since they are not valid "points" they are indeed irrefutable. This "falsifiable" stuff is just pretentious posturing. I've provided one reference (there is massive information worldwide over the decades about what is valid and what is not) in the next comment here.
Here's an excellent TED talk on the issues, if anyone is genuinely interested in the challenges and how experts think about and work on them: "The Emergent Patterns of Climate Change"
https://www.ted.com/talks/gavin_schmidt_the_emergent_patterns_of_climate...
Here's an excellent TED talk on the issues, if anyone is genuinely interested in the challenges and how experts think about and work on them: "The Emergent Patterns of Climate Change"
https://www.ted.com/talks/gavin_schmidt_the_emergent_patterns_of_climate...
1
Susan -- you clearly don't understand the concept of reliability. I don't care what the "experts" say -- if you haven't taken adequate samples of the globe over the time frame the "scientists" claim to have a temp record, you have nothing because your data can't be reliable.
Think about it this way. Africa is roughly 27 million square kilometers. Back in 1880 or so, the best you could hope for was an average of a ground weather station per 1/2 million sq kilometers. Even today -- the best you have is, on average, 1 for about every 57k sq kilmeters which is about 1 for an area the size of CT, NJ and Mass combined. And the weather stations weren't randomly distributed. Most are on or near the coast. Ditto all the other land masses I've named. And forget about any semblance of common methods.
So repeat after me -- without reliability you can't have validity. Period. Basic statistics. Even Mueller at Berkeley Earth agrees the global data set has reliability problems.
And for a hypothesis to be scientific, it must be able to be falsified. A projection that is 30 - 50 -- 100 years down the road isn't in any real sense falsifiable today.
Of course, I don't pretend the true believers understand or care about how science works because they obviously don't. But you can't get around the scientific method if you want to have science.
Think about it this way. Africa is roughly 27 million square kilometers. Back in 1880 or so, the best you could hope for was an average of a ground weather station per 1/2 million sq kilometers. Even today -- the best you have is, on average, 1 for about every 57k sq kilmeters which is about 1 for an area the size of CT, NJ and Mass combined. And the weather stations weren't randomly distributed. Most are on or near the coast. Ditto all the other land masses I've named. And forget about any semblance of common methods.
So repeat after me -- without reliability you can't have validity. Period. Basic statistics. Even Mueller at Berkeley Earth agrees the global data set has reliability problems.
And for a hypothesis to be scientific, it must be able to be falsified. A projection that is 30 - 50 -- 100 years down the road isn't in any real sense falsifiable today.
Of course, I don't pretend the true believers understand or care about how science works because they obviously don't. But you can't get around the scientific method if you want to have science.
That Ted talk says nothing -- except these models are really good or something similar. I don't take that is evidence. Interesting they are coded in Fortran. How 70's of them. Although whether they code it in fortran, assembler, C or directly in machine code isn't the issue, is it.
Since the unskeptical "skeptics" are showing up in force with their plausible looking falsehoods, here's a correct the record for anyone who is interested:
"Major correction to satellite data shows 140% faster warming since 1998"
https://www.carbonbrief.org/major-correction-to-satellite-data-shows-140...
"Major correction to satellite data shows 140% faster warming since 1998"
https://www.carbonbrief.org/major-correction-to-satellite-data-shows-140...
6
Yes, that's it. Trump has a secret plan to fight Climate Change by using a nuclear winter. What could go wrong?
well I believe a nuclear explosion would be carbon free.
Climate-change has now become a weird religious cult of sorts, where any skeptic is immediately attacked and denounced as a heretic.
Also, "the 97% of scientists agree" claim is a hoax. I have been researching this for some time and there is no source document to be found, other than news articles and TV pundits referring to it and to each other.
Climate-change cult followers are no different than those religious kooks who march around with signs saying "Repent! The end is near!"
Also, "the 97% of scientists agree" claim is a hoax. I have been researching this for some time and there is no source document to be found, other than news articles and TV pundits referring to it and to each other.
Climate-change cult followers are no different than those religious kooks who march around with signs saying "Repent! The end is near!"
2
I am so sick of Trump catering to the anti-science prejudices of the most extreme Fundamentalists on far right. His administration ties to oil industry don't help, either.
An anti-science prejudice will keep doing us damage in so many ways, and put our nation far behind in engineering and other developments, too.
An anti-science prejudice will keep doing us damage in so many ways, and put our nation far behind in engineering and other developments, too.
3
"President Trump will stick to his convictions."
As if Trump has any convictions, perhaps aside from legal ones, past and future. The man's only firmly held belief is that Americans are unfairly withholding their love for him, probably due to the news media.
Instead of convictions, what Trump has is spite and blind hate. He will stubbornly stick to his spite and blind hate.
There, Heritage Foundation. I fixed it for you.
As if Trump has any convictions, perhaps aside from legal ones, past and future. The man's only firmly held belief is that Americans are unfairly withholding their love for him, probably due to the news media.
Instead of convictions, what Trump has is spite and blind hate. He will stubbornly stick to his spite and blind hate.
There, Heritage Foundation. I fixed it for you.
4
How can a document signed by Yemen be worth anything?
US, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Russia and Indonesia? A rogue's gallery if I've ever seen one!
5
Pathetic that the Times offers Saudi Arabia - among other villains - as a reason to think that maybe Trump is right about climate change.
But perhaps an uncomfortable truth is put before us. USA-Saudi Arabia-Turkey-Russia united in ignorance.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Dual citizen US SE
But perhaps an uncomfortable truth is put before us. USA-Saudi Arabia-Turkey-Russia united in ignorance.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Dual citizen US SE
4
Please, Elon. Hurry.
3
A case of the Emperor has no cloths?
A June 2017 Study “On the Validity of NOAA, NASA and Hadley CRU Global Average Surface Temperature Data & The Validity of EPA’s CO2 Endangerment Finding.”
“The conclusive findings of this research are that the three GAST data sets are not a valid representation of reality. …. Finally, since GAST data set validity is a necessary condition for EPA’s GHG/CO2 Endangerment Finding, it too is invalidated by these research findings.”
https://thsresearch.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/ef-gast-data-research-re...
H/T July 7th 2017 GWPF & Daily Caller
A June 2017 Study “On the Validity of NOAA, NASA and Hadley CRU Global Average Surface Temperature Data & The Validity of EPA’s CO2 Endangerment Finding.”
“The conclusive findings of this research are that the three GAST data sets are not a valid representation of reality. …. Finally, since GAST data set validity is a necessary condition for EPA’s GHG/CO2 Endangerment Finding, it too is invalidated by these research findings.”
https://thsresearch.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/ef-gast-data-research-re...
H/T July 7th 2017 GWPF & Daily Caller
1
Oh boy, Koch ally GWPF, garbage!
Actually, though this comment looks technical, it's based on a whole lot of dishonest hooey.
Recent information shows the opposite of what you claim:
"Major correction to satellite data shows 140% faster warming since 1998"
https://www.carbonbrief.org/major-correction-to-satellite-data-shows-140...
Actually, though this comment looks technical, it's based on a whole lot of dishonest hooey.
Recent information shows the opposite of what you claim:
"Major correction to satellite data shows 140% faster warming since 1998"
https://www.carbonbrief.org/major-correction-to-satellite-data-shows-140...
2
"Global Warming" is a touchstone issue of our age. Ask someone about it. If they say it is a hoax then you have found gold. You have found someone with awareness. For more info go to www.ecofascism.com
1
Disgusting news. Blame Trump for disseminating stupid
and erroneous information on the climate to countries willing to listen.
and erroneous information on the climate to countries willing to listen.
5
An article apparently designed to smear some countries with assertions based on zero facts - awful journalism. Russia and Saudi Arabia are indeed petro-states, they both have special relationships with Trump even though Russia attacked our nation and will continue to do so with future cyberattacks, while our Commader-in-Chief denies the attacks and Saudi Arabia spreads Wahhabism that forms ideological foundation for AQ and ISIS. Russia also is probably the biggest climate change denier (along with Republicans in US) and believes Russia will benefit from warmer climate. But neither Russia nor Saudi Arabia was withdrawn from Paris Agreement nor indicated that they will - they will simply ignore it (a legitimate criticism of Paris Agreement is that it is voluntary). Turkey has issues with Germany and EU, Erdogan is one more autocrat that Trump loves - but what does that have to do with Paris Agreement? Including Indonesia is the strangest item for this flawed article. Unlike what some commentators are stating, Indonesia is a democracy (yes, flawed, but then again we just elected Trump), and ratified the treaty; what does being silent since even mean? We are the ones who elected Trump as President, who is out to destroy or weaken any multilateral agreements from UN or NATO or EU or WTO for his America First xenophobic nationalism and above all to enrich himself. Stop trying to find other countries to share the blame for our total failure with the Paris Agreement.
3
The selfish, it burns. Taking advantage of ignorance and greed at the expense of the future is idiotic. The evidence is piling up. There are multiple forms of evidence and experts in a variety of disciplines agree (worldwide and over more than a century) as to what is happening. Even setting that aside, our extracting industries are creating a variety of toxic environments which in general are hurting people in the neighborhood.
In a decade or two (and, in fact already, but not quite so obvious) it will be impossible to ignore the planet-wide breakdown of the natural world. The planet will survive, but we humans are facing an increasingly hostile environment.
So I ask you, is giving cover to three of the world's worst repressive societies a good thing? Does ignorance trump reality?
It's hard to understand why people would be so eager to embrace convenient lies at the expense of their future and the future of their younger friends and family members.
In a decade or two (and, in fact already, but not quite so obvious) it will be impossible to ignore the planet-wide breakdown of the natural world. The planet will survive, but we humans are facing an increasingly hostile environment.
So I ask you, is giving cover to three of the world's worst repressive societies a good thing? Does ignorance trump reality?
It's hard to understand why people would be so eager to embrace convenient lies at the expense of their future and the future of their younger friends and family members.
6
Quite the Band of Brothers. Notice how are "allies" are looking more and more like dictatorships? Curious, no?
9
Trump's position is not helped by other countries pulling out of the agreement. It benefits the US to be the only country not abiding by a treaty or agreement. In his view, everybody else is hampered by the restrictions and we're not.
Big surprise here -- the pollution causing oil oligarchs don't care about the future of the planet.
4
Hopefully common sense prevails and more countries will understand that it makes so sense to force us to use expensive energy for only a small impact on global temperatures.
2
We can all agree that climate change is real, the evidence is all around us. The debate is what the cause is and will continue on as most debates do. Yes, I know a vast majority of scientists agree that human activity is the cause, but what scientist would risk being ridiculed by his peers for disagreeing and burned at the stake { oh yes, we do not do that any more} much like those that were labeled heretics for daring to think that the earth revolved around the sun.
The other comment that is used most frequently is "saving the planet". No matter what happens the planet will be fine, we may foul our nest to the point we will no longer be able to inhabit this place but the planet will live on.
My concern is more mundane and that is how do we deal with it. So far all the concern is how to stop it or even slow it down. that is fine but we had better start figuring out what needs to be done to mitigate the results of a change in weather patterns and rising sea levels. so far our leaders have done nothing on this subject. How do we protect our most productive soils? How do we protect our coastal cities and our ports of entry? How do we protect our water supply in arid regions? These and other questions remain unanswered as we debate the Paris Accord and ridicule one another along political party lines about the existence and cause of a change in our climate.
We will be better served by doing what we can for the environment and concentrating on measures to live with it.
The other comment that is used most frequently is "saving the planet". No matter what happens the planet will be fine, we may foul our nest to the point we will no longer be able to inhabit this place but the planet will live on.
My concern is more mundane and that is how do we deal with it. So far all the concern is how to stop it or even slow it down. that is fine but we had better start figuring out what needs to be done to mitigate the results of a change in weather patterns and rising sea levels. so far our leaders have done nothing on this subject. How do we protect our most productive soils? How do we protect our coastal cities and our ports of entry? How do we protect our water supply in arid regions? These and other questions remain unanswered as we debate the Paris Accord and ridicule one another along political party lines about the existence and cause of a change in our climate.
We will be better served by doing what we can for the environment and concentrating on measures to live with it.
4
"what scientist would risk contradicting his peers..."
Dude, really? CONTRADICTION is practically the definition of science. It certainly is a pillar. Only when the majority aligns behind tested hypotheses is a theory established and a fact can be called a fact.
We've all seen this misdirection before. At the very least your "argument" seeks to exploit the uninformed, if it doesn't represent an uninformed view itself. If you have a point, please try harder to explain it.
Dude, really? CONTRADICTION is practically the definition of science. It certainly is a pillar. Only when the majority aligns behind tested hypotheses is a theory established and a fact can be called a fact.
We've all seen this misdirection before. At the very least your "argument" seeks to exploit the uninformed, if it doesn't represent an uninformed view itself. If you have a point, please try harder to explain it.
7
OK, "saving the planet" is a euphemism. Let's tell it like it is: saving the human race. Does that make you feel less sanguine about taking action?
8
That is truly the discussion and should be phrased that way. Mother Nature will always win. 250 million years of the dinosaurs and the planet is still here and they are not. Humans have walked this planet for a much shorter time period and I hold little hope that we, the supposedly intelligent beings, will come close to matching the dinos' time on this planet. But the planet will live on, will take back everything humans have done, and will continue on until the sun becomes a red giant and consumes the planet before shrinking back and the light goes out.
I
I
3
Isn't this exactly the problem that was recognized when Trump first announced the U.S. was withdrawing, that lacking American support for the accord, other countries would also start withdrawing? Trump may have sealed the fate of humanity.
7
FWIW, The Washington Post has a lead article that takes exact opposite position, "At G-20 summit, it looks more and more like Trump against the world."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jah_3EWUi5Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jah_3EWUi5Q
3
Republicans may either deny the atmosphere is getting warmer (nevermind our glaciers are melting more swiftly), or they may assert that climate fluctuations have occurred over geological time, independent of human activity. Either way, there is nothing for us to do about climate change these days.
What is unprecedented and undeniable is that the oceans are becoming more acidic from increasing dissolved greenhouse gases from our atmosphere. In turn, this chemical action bleaches the coral reefs, destroys fisheries.
Republicans, you can try to control increasing greenhouse gases, or you can hope you will be dead before your children will have to control this havoc. The American three branches of government are now ruled by know-nothing scientific imbeciles. The present American President symbolizes the short-sighted American society, at least those who failed their school courses on earth sciences and prefer their motto to be trust in God, instead out of the many, one.
What is unprecedented and undeniable is that the oceans are becoming more acidic from increasing dissolved greenhouse gases from our atmosphere. In turn, this chemical action bleaches the coral reefs, destroys fisheries.
Republicans, you can try to control increasing greenhouse gases, or you can hope you will be dead before your children will have to control this havoc. The American three branches of government are now ruled by know-nothing scientific imbeciles. The present American President symbolizes the short-sighted American society, at least those who failed their school courses on earth sciences and prefer their motto to be trust in God, instead out of the many, one.
13
This is what you should expect when you put a man into the office 'to run the government like a business'. Businesses are run for profit - specifically - the profit of those running (as oppose to owning) the business. Governments are supposed to be run to benefit their nation, not just a rich elite.
5
Not even a good businessman. Who else could bankrupt a casino? He's a good conman and knows camera angles, how to bully and take advantage and has no conscience about lying.
1
Loris, of the Heritage Foundation: "It’s like trying to poke a bear... President Trump will stick to his convictions."
If you want to see 'conviction', try poking a planet. Trump has three years to change his mind. After that, the planet's mind will be made up. Take one issue: sea level rise. For 6,000 years prior to 1900 sea level changed not one inch. After 1900, one foot (on the US East Coast). Will we ever get that foot back? No, not ever. We'll see another foot in a few decades. That, also, will be permanent. After that, the planet starts getting serious. Trump is a toddler throwing a tantrum in a sandbox located on a beach about to get swept away by a tsunami. On this issue, admiring his 'conviction' is straight out of the funny farm. Loris could not be less serious.
If you want to see 'conviction', try poking a planet. Trump has three years to change his mind. After that, the planet's mind will be made up. Take one issue: sea level rise. For 6,000 years prior to 1900 sea level changed not one inch. After 1900, one foot (on the US East Coast). Will we ever get that foot back? No, not ever. We'll see another foot in a few decades. That, also, will be permanent. After that, the planet starts getting serious. Trump is a toddler throwing a tantrum in a sandbox located on a beach about to get swept away by a tsunami. On this issue, admiring his 'conviction' is straight out of the funny farm. Loris could not be less serious.
6
China has no intention of complying with the Paris Climate Accord. They are NOT allies of the West. WAKE UP. And remember, this is non binding to the USA because Obama acting like a tyrant dictator and signed without congressional approval. But nobody called him a tyrant. Why? It madness, sheer madness. And the liberals will be to blame. TheSPOKANE y are easily duped.
1
China is self-interested as are all other nations. So they took over the solar panel manufacturing market because that's the future.
They invested more in renewable energy last year than any other nation, because the pollution from coal, from cars and trucks, is literally killing their growing middle class and poisoning their farmland.
The Paris Accord has no penalties, and was carefully phrased so that Obama could sign it without a vote from Congress.
But the US Senate unanimously approved the UNFCCC climate treaty back in 1992, which commits signing nations to reducing greenhouse emissions.
Don't trust me - here it is
https://www.congress.gov/treaty-document/102nd-congress/38
WAKE UP.
They invested more in renewable energy last year than any other nation, because the pollution from coal, from cars and trucks, is literally killing their growing middle class and poisoning their farmland.
The Paris Accord has no penalties, and was carefully phrased so that Obama could sign it without a vote from Congress.
But the US Senate unanimously approved the UNFCCC climate treaty back in 1992, which commits signing nations to reducing greenhouse emissions.
Don't trust me - here it is
https://www.congress.gov/treaty-document/102nd-congress/38
WAKE UP.
Thank goodness most of our great cities are with the Europeans and the Earth.
2
And if the National Socialist party was in power in Germany, Trump would have another ally.
3
ah well, an impressive bunch to side with ...
2
Thank you, Germany and Canada, for trying to strengthen other countries' resolve to honor this agreement. Come on, other countries! And as for Saudi Arabia, doesn't Islam have teachings about honoring creation or the Creator? I bet it does.
4
In such illustrious company the once mighty now fall.
3
Donald Trump's "convictions" are really the product of arrogance and ignorance. They are certainly unworthy of any respect, at least when it comes to environmental matters and climate change. The climate is changing and humans are causing that change. The change is quite risky to this planet's biodiversity and to the economic and social health of our civilization. That much is known - yes, known and not believed - by scientists. Rejection of scientific knowledge establishes our President as a fool, and one whose behavior will result in the harm of millions if not more, and not a leader.
4
Hey glad I don't live in Dallas today. Too hot to generate much energy from the wind farm.....so folks will go without sufficient power to guarantee their AC will run.....whoops. Don't think we are quite ready to rely on those renewables !
Global warming is the totalitarian dictator launching a billion missiles of climate change.
The ruthless forces do not stop, they can only be slowed,
His reign will only grow more cruel. And there is no negotiation, only appeasement, mitigation and adaptation.
And his vast conspiracy is carefully spelled out in a manifesto of physics and climate science - for all to read.
The ruthless forces do not stop, they can only be slowed,
His reign will only grow more cruel. And there is no negotiation, only appeasement, mitigation and adaptation.
And his vast conspiracy is carefully spelled out in a manifesto of physics and climate science - for all to read.
2
Richard We now have ice cores going back more than a million years, during which many warnings and coolings occurred, in those more than million years of ice cores never have human produced emissions been as high as they are now, the folly of saying that the climate is always changing belies the current evidence
1
Check your data again, Morgan. Were now higher than about 200 million years.
You really aren't trying to argue that carbon dioxide from fossil fuel combustion does not cause global warming, are you? Because your memo on messaging says that it's time to admit that science is correct on that. You should be talking about how much it influences now. All that climate science says that with no carbon emissions we would be in a cooling period. All our overheating is of our own making.
You really aren't trying to argue that carbon dioxide from fossil fuel combustion does not cause global warming, are you? Because your memo on messaging says that it's time to admit that science is correct on that. You should be talking about how much it influences now. All that climate science says that with no carbon emissions we would be in a cooling period. All our overheating is of our own making.
1
How much harm can Trump's selfishness do to the future of the human race? A lot. He provides an example of leadership in the race to the bottom.
16
Climate control needs to be put on hold until they sort out North Korea's nuclear weapons' program.
North Korea's nuclear weapons can do a lot more damage than a coal mine in Pennsylvania. I'm not sure that Angela Merkel gets this.
North Korea's nuclear weapons can do a lot more damage than a coal mine in Pennsylvania. I'm not sure that Angela Merkel gets this.
Do you have any more inane comments, WAKE UP
1
The 'climate agreement' is an agreement in name only, anyway. Even countries that have agreed to be a part of it have ways to skirt the basic requirements. This newspaper a week ago discussed China and how it has contracted to build 100's of coal plants in countries around the world in the next few years. So how useful is their signature on this accord? So many developing countries have been given temporary exemptions that the agreement is basically a watered down version of what the European countries set out to achieve in the first place.
3
Exactly what I predicted will be happening. Some countries signed up to the Paris Accord because of the enormous pure pressure from all the leading states of the world at the time. Trump pulling out already gifted these countries a cover and an excuse to shed their commitments. This Accord will slowly fall apart because American selfishness demonstrated by Trump's actions. Long term, this will be tragic for human kind and a gigantic historical mistake for the US.
28
None of the leading climate scientists in the world think the Paris agreement would have held temperature increases to the max permissible 3.6 degrees Fahrenheit agreed on; and even if it did, the science says that number is not going to be at all effective. As one scientist said, the number agreed on was based on politics, not science. More better-than-nothing hypocrisy. Europe is very good at that. Let in lots of Muslims in France and Germany but don't integrate them into your society.
There was an article in the NYT a few days ago detailing how the Europeans cheat on the sanctions against the Russians as compared to the U.S. Government's strict enforcement against its oil companies and banks. Do we think the Europeans aren't going to cheat the numbers? Germany is shutting down all of its nuclear plants. That means more coal and methane. The Europeans run many more diesel-powered cars than we do--you know, like the ones VW cheated everybody on with its emissions software.
There was an article in the NYT a few days ago detailing how the Europeans cheat on the sanctions against the Russians as compared to the U.S. Government's strict enforcement against its oil companies and banks. Do we think the Europeans aren't going to cheat the numbers? Germany is shutting down all of its nuclear plants. That means more coal and methane. The Europeans run many more diesel-powered cars than we do--you know, like the ones VW cheated everybody on with its emissions software.
2
@Duane,
You've basically tied together a few tweets, each a stretch if not a fabrication or outright insult. How very Trumpian.
But here's the thing : lists of random talking points don't make for a convincing argument outside of flyover country. Stick to one point and develop it. That requires fact and intellectuall capacity to wield them. Face it, those aren't Trumpian qualities.
You've basically tied together a few tweets, each a stretch if not a fabrication or outright insult. How very Trumpian.
But here's the thing : lists of random talking points don't make for a convincing argument outside of flyover country. Stick to one point and develop it. That requires fact and intellectuall capacity to wield them. Face it, those aren't Trumpian qualities.
3
Such an alliance as suggested here makes no sense at all to me. I suppose international affairs have become too complex for me, but the idea that this alliance could ever be meaningful in delaying work on climate change seems impossible.
2
Climate will do what climate will do as it has for hundreds of millions of years. Meanwhile, decisions and policy need to be based on hard fact.
There are some crucial, verifiable facts - with citations - about human-generated carbon dioxide and its effect on global warming people need to know and understand at
hseneker.blogspot.com
The discussion is too long to post here but is a quick and easy read. I recommend following the links in the citations; some of them are very educational.
There are some crucial, verifiable facts - with citations - about human-generated carbon dioxide and its effect on global warming people need to know and understand at
hseneker.blogspot.com
The discussion is too long to post here but is a quick and easy read. I recommend following the links in the citations; some of them are very educational.
2
Don't waste your time. This guy has no clue, and if he's young enough he'll live to regret taking sides with ignorance.
7
Hi, Susan.
Yeah, his sentence should have continued: "decision and policy have to be based on hard fact" so ignore mountains of research and trust someone's 2012 short blog post on climate. Because Blogspot!
Harold, just as you suggest elsewhere on your blog that Intelligent Design should be used as an example of getting science wrong, I nominate your greenhouse gas post for the same purpose. It's a long list of typical errors, starting right after the word "but" in your first sentence.
Yeah, his sentence should have continued: "decision and policy have to be based on hard fact" so ignore mountains of research and trust someone's 2012 short blog post on climate. Because Blogspot!
Harold, just as you suggest elsewhere on your blog that Intelligent Design should be used as an example of getting science wrong, I nominate your greenhouse gas post for the same purpose. It's a long list of typical errors, starting right after the word "but" in your first sentence.
3
Pardon me - I criticized Harold's source without providing materials from experts.
http://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar5/wg1/
Chapter 8 - Anthropogenic and Natural Radiative Forcing
Chapter 10 - Detection and Attribution of Climate Change: from Global to Regional
The link next to each chapter title gets you the doc, but also the option to download that chapter's list of references - hundreds of journal papers for each chapter.
Here's the bibliography link from Spencer Weart's "The Discovery of Global Warming: A History"
https://history.aip.org/climate/bibdate.htm
First references are Ben Franklin, William Herschel and Joseph Fourier.
Fourier's two papers in the 1820s established that the Earth is warmer than it should be at this distance from the sun - because the atmosphere has a way of trapping heat.
http://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar5/wg1/
Chapter 8 - Anthropogenic and Natural Radiative Forcing
Chapter 10 - Detection and Attribution of Climate Change: from Global to Regional
The link next to each chapter title gets you the doc, but also the option to download that chapter's list of references - hundreds of journal papers for each chapter.
Here's the bibliography link from Spencer Weart's "The Discovery of Global Warming: A History"
https://history.aip.org/climate/bibdate.htm
First references are Ben Franklin, William Herschel and Joseph Fourier.
Fourier's two papers in the 1820s established that the Earth is warmer than it should be at this distance from the sun - because the atmosphere has a way of trapping heat.
2
"Such a tangled web we weave." A fitting a statement for this new world order made up of the US, Russia, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey, with Indonesia joining this entanglement. How something so scientifically proven by REAL scientists and so consequential toward the health of this fragile earth and its people can be threatened by self-serving, exploitive leaders of the above nations, is truly amoral. All we can hope is that the other nations who signed on to the Paris Agreement stay firm in their commitment. That is mere hope. But for us in this country, we do have those many states and cities who will absolutely take an active role in keeping our air, soil, and water safe and free from pollutants. It's not perfect, for sure, but maybe others in this country will free themselves from Trumpism and take up the cause.
18
Dear Mr. President. If you want to be strongly pro-growth, and strongly for American energy independence, please take a look at these two links
First is from our Department of Energy - showing expected wind-power growth in the US over the next 30-odd years.
https://energy.gov/maps/map-projected-growth-wind-industry-now-until-2050
http://www.awea.org/MediaCenter/pressrelease.aspx?ItemNumber=9812
"ARLINGTON, Texas, Feb. 9, 2017 — American wind power just achieved its second strongest quarter ever for newly installed energy generating capacity according to a new report released today by the American Wind Energy Association (AWEA). Wind surpassed hydropower dams to become the largest source of renewable electric capacity in the U.S., and the fourth largest overall.
Business leaders from General Motors and the U.S. wind energy industry met Thursday morning to mark this historic milestone and release AWEA’s Fourth Quarter 2016 U.S. Wind Industry Market Report at General Motor’s Arlington Assembly Plant, which will soon be 100 percent wind-powered."
Think of that, a US car plant in a red state using lots of beautiful wind energy. Lots of Republican voters around the country will be getting lease money in their pockets as wind turbines sprout - or they'll work in the rapidly growing renewables job market. Please keep that in mind.
First is from our Department of Energy - showing expected wind-power growth in the US over the next 30-odd years.
https://energy.gov/maps/map-projected-growth-wind-industry-now-until-2050
http://www.awea.org/MediaCenter/pressrelease.aspx?ItemNumber=9812
"ARLINGTON, Texas, Feb. 9, 2017 — American wind power just achieved its second strongest quarter ever for newly installed energy generating capacity according to a new report released today by the American Wind Energy Association (AWEA). Wind surpassed hydropower dams to become the largest source of renewable electric capacity in the U.S., and the fourth largest overall.
Business leaders from General Motors and the U.S. wind energy industry met Thursday morning to mark this historic milestone and release AWEA’s Fourth Quarter 2016 U.S. Wind Industry Market Report at General Motor’s Arlington Assembly Plant, which will soon be 100 percent wind-powered."
Think of that, a US car plant in a red state using lots of beautiful wind energy. Lots of Republican voters around the country will be getting lease money in their pockets as wind turbines sprout - or they'll work in the rapidly growing renewables job market. Please keep that in mind.
7
Russia and Saudi Arabia are petrostates - countries whose economies are heavily dependent on fossil fuel exports. Indonesia is not quite, but close. It is another major oil exporter. It should be no surprise these are the countries eager to get on the "climate change is fake news" bandwagon.
18
Indonesia is a significant coal producer, too. We can only hope that Trump would view these other fossil-fuel exporters as a threat to his "Energy Dominance" that has Zinke wanting to drill everywhere whether we need it or not.
Russia's stuck because Putin never tried diversifying Russia's economy and instead was fooled (like everyone else, to be fair) into dreams of a future of ever-increasing fossil fuel demands, and $100+ a barrel oil. So maybe his plan B is to sell Siberia to China.
Russia's stuck because Putin never tried diversifying Russia's economy and instead was fooled (like everyone else, to be fair) into dreams of a future of ever-increasing fossil fuel demands, and $100+ a barrel oil. So maybe his plan B is to sell Siberia to China.
2
Great company for the US to be aligned.
23
Just looking at those 'allies' it just shows how low the US has sunk.
39
Unbelievable the US is on that list! What an embarrassment and failure of leadership.
3
Trump is all about Trump,and nothing more. While the nightmare continues - it's time to end the nightmare.
12
Maybe I'm the only one interested in the subplots. There are millions of Turks living in Germany. Erdogan wants to address his people while in Hamburg. Merkel has said no. Erdogan has accused of Merkel of Nazi-like behavior.
We have a tendency to think that all international affairs are about us. But this is clearly not routine conflict between the Germans and the Turks. We might want to consider the carbon content of weapons of war. And we should keep in mind that successfully reducing climate emissions depends on worldwide cooperation.
When is the last time we had worldwide cooperation on anything?
We have a tendency to think that all international affairs are about us. But this is clearly not routine conflict between the Germans and the Turks. We might want to consider the carbon content of weapons of war. And we should keep in mind that successfully reducing climate emissions depends on worldwide cooperation.
When is the last time we had worldwide cooperation on anything?
3
Thanks. Your information is often interesting ...
A strong, effective United States environmental policy in concert with the great majority of nations will only be possible when Trump leaves office. Trump's rejection of the Paris agreement likely reflects his failure to understand the nature of the existential threat as well as his unwise and vengeful attempts to undo any and all of President Obama's accomplishments. The United States will remain in the intensive care unit as long as Trump remains president. May his leaving the office be sooner rather than later.
24
Maybe Trump takes the logical position and rejects the religious like climate apocalypse prophesies.
2
If you consider empirical evidence and scientific consensus "religious," well, then maybe.
3
Climate change is science. There are literally hundreds of published, peer-reviewed papers explaining the evidence and the science for anybody willing to make an effort to understand.
7
So, so discouraging.
14
Greedy opportunists have always stood in the way of the public interest, and this era is no different.
But this is the first time the United States has been in the hands of a casino operator, someone skilled in the fine art of separating working folks from their paychecks by convincing them they were winning when they were losing.
But this is the first time the United States has been in the hands of a casino operator, someone skilled in the fine art of separating working folks from their paychecks by convincing them they were winning when they were losing.
30
And the only guy who could actually bankrupt a casino. How stupid is that?
4
Just the company we want to keep.....stop moaning about the Paris Agreement. It is not law, it is not required, it is an agreement that says countries will work to reduce emissions and share their progress. If we want to cede global leadership, this is the place to start. But don;t start looking for federal dollars when Miami continues to flood during routine high tides or the Plains dry up due to drought. Remember, there is no climate change so no need for federal dollars.....
11
This is by far the most courageous step taken by our president and EPA secretary. The U.K. needs to join in too, the Grenfell tower being the most glaring example of energy policies gone horribly wrong. Last week, a brand new condominium caught fire in London, the cause being its solar panels.
Back home in good ol' USA, we need to keep up the momentum: dismante wind turbines, electric cars, and the crazy joke of solar power. And return to sources of traditional and abundant power, oil, gas and nuclear.
The world needs to wake up and take heed! Trump's dream of making America great again is happening before our very eyes, his presidency already in line for the greatest since FDR. But Trump's magic is not restricted to the US alone but readily applicable elsewhere. For starters, recognize that the time for science experiments and (ab)using them for phony wealth-transfers has long past. Junk science was always junk science. Now with grown-ups in charge, time to send the scientists packing until they solve some real problems for a change. Like predicting earthquakes and tornadoes. Bah.
Back home in good ol' USA, we need to keep up the momentum: dismante wind turbines, electric cars, and the crazy joke of solar power. And return to sources of traditional and abundant power, oil, gas and nuclear.
The world needs to wake up and take heed! Trump's dream of making America great again is happening before our very eyes, his presidency already in line for the greatest since FDR. But Trump's magic is not restricted to the US alone but readily applicable elsewhere. For starters, recognize that the time for science experiments and (ab)using them for phony wealth-transfers has long past. Junk science was always junk science. Now with grown-ups in charge, time to send the scientists packing until they solve some real problems for a change. Like predicting earthquakes and tornadoes. Bah.
4
Hm. While you're at it, you should take up cigarette smoking too.
47
Note also that climate "science" has been able to predict nothing correctly.
It has a 100% track record of being wrong.
NOTHING climate "scientists" have predicted has come true. NOTHING.
It has a 100% track record of being wrong.
NOTHING climate "scientists" have predicted has come true. NOTHING.
1
Obviously the comment is sarcasm. Thanks for the comment. Great fun.
America, Russia, Saudi Arabia = OIL. Big oil dollars. And military arms deals?
I don't know enough about Turkey and Indonesia regarding oil and arms but looks like their mixed in somehow. How about hotels? Trump always has time to find 'allies' I mean business partners. He is very effective in foreign policy when it is his economic interests.
I don't know enough about Turkey and Indonesia regarding oil and arms but looks like their mixed in somehow. How about hotels? Trump always has time to find 'allies' I mean business partners. He is very effective in foreign policy when it is his economic interests.
7
Our emissions have been declining steadily for 15 years, and even longer if you take into consideration per capita emissions. And thanks to technology they will continue to decline, without us signing the Paris agreement, which was essentially a theft of the hard-earned money of American taxpayers.
Thank you, President Trump.
Thank you, President Trump.
5
CO2 emissions peaked in ~2007, so you're off by 5 years.
In any case, the key stat is ppm CO2 in the atmosphere and that is still going up so we all need to do our part to try to keep that from going higher.
It's at ~409 ppm now. It was at ~280 ppm in 1800.
https://www.co2.earth/
In any case, the key stat is ppm CO2 in the atmosphere and that is still going up so we all need to do our part to try to keep that from going higher.
It's at ~409 ppm now. It was at ~280 ppm in 1800.
https://www.co2.earth/
3
What theft? If you are talking about the funds the developed nations were committing to help poorer nations prepare, you have to keep in mind that "prepare" would include purchase of products and expertise on non-fossil energy systems - sold by developed nations.
And realistically? Helping developing nations develop away from fossil dependency is a great big insurance investment. Syrian refugees in Europe are just a trickle compared to what could happen in future as Africa and the Middle East get drier and hotter. After a few failed harvests in a row, subsistence farmers hit the road for better climates. In very large numbers.
Growing patterns and rainfall patterns are going beyond what can be accurately predicted - water access in dry areas is expected to get more limited. These are the kinds of things that keep planners in the Pentagon very nervous.
And realistically? Helping developing nations develop away from fossil dependency is a great big insurance investment. Syrian refugees in Europe are just a trickle compared to what could happen in future as Africa and the Middle East get drier and hotter. After a few failed harvests in a row, subsistence farmers hit the road for better climates. In very large numbers.
Growing patterns and rainfall patterns are going beyond what can be accurately predicted - water access in dry areas is expected to get more limited. These are the kinds of things that keep planners in the Pentagon very nervous.
12
"theft of the hard-earned money of American taxpayers."
In what way? Because it largely asked countries to help other countries build sustainable energy infrastructure in a simple redirection of existing aid dollars? What would you prefer we do with that tax revenue? More coal company subsidies? Another fighter jet? A few dozen shiny new tomahawk cruise missiles?
You want theft: How about having the Secret Service pay rent in Trump tower, or pushing tax policies which will benefit himself and his businesses, or using the platform of his position to promote his resorts?
Leadership is needed. If not us, it will be someone else.
In what way? Because it largely asked countries to help other countries build sustainable energy infrastructure in a simple redirection of existing aid dollars? What would you prefer we do with that tax revenue? More coal company subsidies? Another fighter jet? A few dozen shiny new tomahawk cruise missiles?
You want theft: How about having the Secret Service pay rent in Trump tower, or pushing tax policies which will benefit himself and his businesses, or using the platform of his position to promote his resorts?
Leadership is needed. If not us, it will be someone else.
9
With friends like these, who needs enemies?
38
Well, this looks to me like the United States are sitting in the back seat now while new global players are taking over the steering wheel.
34
We are experiencing technical difficulties - please stand by and sorry for the inconvenience.
4
Trump's only success is relegating the United States to the role of the crazy uncle that nobody pays any attention to.
3
This would seem to advance the topic of carbon tariffs. When all countries were in Paris Accords just asked to come up with their own voluntary reductions of greenhouse gas emissions then there was at least improvements being promised. Thus, the topic of carbon tariffs was delayed until it became clear that certain countries weren't making progress.
Now with US having withdrawn and other countries considering withdrawing then those countries spending money to lower emissions will face political pressures for a carbon tariff.
Now with US having withdrawn and other countries considering withdrawing then those countries spending money to lower emissions will face political pressures for a carbon tariff.
1
The Paris agreement is nothing more than a wealth transfer scheme. Of course taker countries will want the giver countries to consent to the theft of giver countries wealth. Most members are taker countries.
3
I see the Paris agreement as a broad based wealth creation scheme based on its potential effects on human health, economic loss from global warning and continued growth in the renewable energy sector. If the USA drops out of the Paris agreement, wealth in the form of lost economic activity and sector dominance will indeed transferred - from America to China.
19
sjaco -- please don't mess the Times' narrative up. Without the PA we all will die right? It doesn't have anything to do with $$$ does it.
Just like Al Gore is working for the good of humanity and not for $$$.
Just like all the alarmist academicians aren't hoping for book deals, tenure, publications, speaking engagements -- along with controlling the destiny of the world.
After all -- if climate scientists weren't promoting impending doom, a made for TV move type disaster scenario -- would anyone care one way or the other what climate scientists do?
Just like Al Gore is working for the good of humanity and not for $$$.
Just like all the alarmist academicians aren't hoping for book deals, tenure, publications, speaking engagements -- along with controlling the destiny of the world.
After all -- if climate scientists weren't promoting impending doom, a made for TV move type disaster scenario -- would anyone care one way or the other what climate scientists do?
2
Foreverthird -- another doomsday scenario? Remember, we Americans are greedy capitalists who will follow the money... if renewables become bankable American entrepreneurs will take the lead. Forget about CC, everyone knows we will eventually run out of fossil fuels so alternative energy is a smart long term play.
Of course that includes nuclear which is a must have.
Of course that includes nuclear which is a must have.
My mom used to say that one is judged by the company they keep. I think it applies here. How could we have fallen off the rails so quickly? I think we all know the answer, but deep down I know that America is really better than this.
33
"I know that America is really better than this."
True. but back in November there were over 60 million American voters who made a conscious decision to act far, far worse. And a good percentage of them still worship in the Church of the Orange Incompetent.
True. but back in November there were over 60 million American voters who made a conscious decision to act far, far worse. And a good percentage of them still worship in the Church of the Orange Incompetent.
2
Well, I feel better about this knowing we have Saudi Arabia, Russia, Turkey, and Indonesia on our side.
Nice democratic bedfellows.
Nice democratic bedfellows.
87
Sure, great, lets align ourselves with three of the most oppressive countries on earth.
61
The Saudis don't care about climate change. When it gets hot, they just turn up the air conditioning. Since they don't believe in science -- other than the science they need for running air conditioning and drilling oil -- it's a no-brainer for them to side with Trump and Putin.
Russia, on the other hand, used to produce some of the top scientists in the world. They still do this, of course, but those people wind up in the West as soon as they can secure jobs outside of Putin's new land of Medieval Rus.
Russia, on the other hand, used to produce some of the top scientists in the world. They still do this, of course, but those people wind up in the West as soon as they can secure jobs outside of Putin's new land of Medieval Rus.
30
It's only a matter of time before one of the countries already adversely affected by climate change - perhaps one of the low-lying islands or drought affected regions in Africa and South America - take legal action against the United States for damages. The U.S. has put out more cumulative CO2 than any other industrialized country, so we are morally and maybe even legally responsible for damages.
15
JP == then we are also responsible for raising the standard of living for billions... right? The world's economy continues to grow, people continue to improve their lives. None of that would have happened without fossil fuels. You may lament this, or maybe you just think clearly.
Unfortunately (for you) your key words say it all: "none...would have happened". It's all past. History. The future is wind, solar, and stuff not yet dreamed of. It's called progress, and at this time it's called "survival."
9
The key word is dream. People have bills to pay now.
Oh, that's OK then. The Saudis, who as well as being the world's biggest exporter of terrorism happen to be the biggest oil producer, want to ditch the Paris accord. SURPRISE! And the Turks, Russians and Indonesians see opportunities in bolstering Trump's position.
there's some seriously worrying stuff going on, here. And the President of the United States is too vain and inexperienced to know when he's being played. Dangerous, dangerous times.
there's some seriously worrying stuff going on, here. And the President of the United States is too vain and inexperienced to know when he's being played. Dangerous, dangerous times.
69
I just read the last lines of the article:
"President Trump will stick to his convictions..."
Need I make any comment whatsoever?
"President Trump will stick to his convictions..."
Need I make any comment whatsoever?
6
Russia, Indonesia, two countries that have willfully devastated their natural environments in the name of short term profits from extraction of timber, oil, fisheries and the like. DEVASTATED. Hardly good company to join for the US, will that be our future under this witless and careless potus?
41
Saudi Arabia might back the US but the others wouldn't. Russia, Turkey and Indonesia have made self-serving promises in Paris so they have no reason to revoke them. Putin is also more than happy to leave Trump going on a limb with the Paris agreement. Obviously Russia has incentive to see curbs on CO2 emissions fail, but they would be happy to stay away from these debates. Putin's actions indicate he doesn't believe Paris will succeed with or without Trump.
5
Putin's view is shifting. He's seeing an ice-free Arctic as something good for Russia. He's got some really big plans to drill for oil up there. He's based his country's entire economy on oil. Not a good sign for Russia and Paris.
2
"Russia, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Indonesia" - great company with which to be allied. Trump should be proud to stand amongst such beacons of democracy!
102
Those already seem to be his favorite countries and their leaders his best buddies.
1
Saudi Arabia is an absolute monarchy (in 21st century!) is one of the world's largest source and producer of fossil fuels - the reason we have been allied with them for 70 years - while being the largest source of global terrorism by spreading Wahhabism, the ideological foundation for both Al Qaeda and ISIS. So we will allow the planet to die with man-made climate change and allow the spread of an ideology that nurtures AQ and ISIS for our Faustian bargain to have easy access to cheap oil. The Saudi royal family and the Trump royal family love each other - kindred spirits: money first.
Both Russia and Turkey have illiberal democracies - at least they have elections. Czar Putin (70 to 80% popularity) and Sultan Erdogan (51% popularity) are autocrats that are popular based on hyper nationalism, whipping up hatred of the other, attacking the media, propaganda and constant lies (sound familiar?).
Indonesia has had multiple free elections with peaceful exchange of power between opposition parties. Indonesia has a difficult history and many current flaws (true for most democracies - we just elected Trump), but is a democracy (work in progress) and should not have been included in this article or as shot against not being democratic.
Both Russia and Turkey have illiberal democracies - at least they have elections. Czar Putin (70 to 80% popularity) and Sultan Erdogan (51% popularity) are autocrats that are popular based on hyper nationalism, whipping up hatred of the other, attacking the media, propaganda and constant lies (sound familiar?).
Indonesia has had multiple free elections with peaceful exchange of power between opposition parties. Indonesia has a difficult history and many current flaws (true for most democracies - we just elected Trump), but is a democracy (work in progress) and should not have been included in this article or as shot against not being democratic.
1
"Trump will stick to his convictions. I don’t think any type of pressure from Merkel or any of the other 19 countries is going to change that.”
I wish this statement was overly pessimistic but it is not. Can someone find a way to convince Trump that moderating climate change would help preserve his Florida home or other properties or does he have a plan to make billions watching coastlines flood and property washes into the ocean?
I wish this statement was overly pessimistic but it is not. Can someone find a way to convince Trump that moderating climate change would help preserve his Florida home or other properties or does he have a plan to make billions watching coastlines flood and property washes into the ocean?
9
That could be a money making proposition where he could profit from the misery of others. He definitely knows how to do that!
6