What madness!! It passes what even anti-Victorian satirists said about the Victorians.
55
It seems odd to be reading an article like this. Is this a new anti sexual revolution? a final cultural revocation of the so-called sexual revolution of the 1960's? I thought wrongly that America was the land of the free, but instead it sounds as if the Pences and other conservatives have taken over under the camouflage of Trump. Why all this fear of the opposite sex?
42
"Temptation is always a factor"?
Um, I've been married for over a decade, together for two decades, and have had many one on one dinners, meetings, etc with the opposite gender professionally. Heck, I've even shared call rooms (i.e. sleeping arrangements) with them. Somehow I've not become so overwhelmed with temptation (or even felt it in any significant way) so as to just HAVE to foresake my marriage vows. Nor have any of my colleagues (including any of the men).
I'm not sure what universe this guy lives in.
Um, I've been married for over a decade, together for two decades, and have had many one on one dinners, meetings, etc with the opposite gender professionally. Heck, I've even shared call rooms (i.e. sleeping arrangements) with them. Somehow I've not become so overwhelmed with temptation (or even felt it in any significant way) so as to just HAVE to foresake my marriage vows. Nor have any of my colleagues (including any of the men).
I'm not sure what universe this guy lives in.
80
Marry the right person. Have a heart and soul.
26
If you are a young woman working for an older man, I think the question is not so much do you find it inappropriate but rather do you feel safe. That, I think is unfortunately why so many women are hesitant to be alone with men. The other real fear is that even when nothing happens, people assume career advancement may have resulted from sexual favors. The idea of all of these predatory women who make false claims is galling.
62
I think there are “optics” issues that are not taken into account in this survey and might help to illustrate why people responded as they did. People “live their lives” in differing social contexts. I am married and, yes, have occasionally been on mixed gender 2 person work trips where I would feel rude if I (a) refused an invite to dine out with my (also married) colleague…or…(b) didn’t invite my colleague out myself. If, upon returning home, I decided to simply call that colleague up and ask her to have dinner alone with me simply because we share an interest in gastropubs or French bistro foods that would feel…frankly…weird, and she (not to mention her husband) would probably feel uncomfortable accepting. When people hear the question they may imagine a very specific scenario that is too narrow to base a broad generalization on.
68
When I was young I read the Tale of Genji, a thousand-year-old Japanese novel; I noted, with wonder, a man and woman were never to be alone with a person of the opposite sex unless they were married. Now I read, again with wonder, much of the population of the United States still seems to believe that, even in relatively innocuous situations.
58
For men there is an actual danger of being accused of harassment by a small percentage of women due to fantasy or malign intent. Though the numbers of cases may be small, the damage can be lasting and destructive. Unless you know the other individual extremely well, it is always better to have mixed gender work situations involve a larger group.
47
I am really surprised to read these results. Neither my husband nor myself ever hesitated to meet with, have lunch or dinner with, or even go on business trips with colleagues of the other sex. This just seems weird.
98
Here is an explosive news of a Kentucky judge (the same State as McConnell), with all kinds of power and influence, doing terribly evil things to women. Read on (from ABC news):
"For years as a Kentucky judge, Tim Nolan sat in judgment of others. Now he sits in jail, awaiting trial on explosive accusations by prosecutors that he snared 17 women and juveniles into having sex over a seven-year period by using money, drugs and threats".
He used drugs and threats to ensnare women. Kentucky is also a State with the worst opioid addictions.
"Judge Nolan faces charges of human trafficking, rape, prostitution, witness tampering and unlawful transaction with a minor. In all, he faces 20 felony and two misdemeanor counts — and more than 100 years in prison if convicted on all charges".
Will someone ask McConnell how much of this he knew and looked the other way, or protected?
I live in the South, and it is disgusting what many thuggish and/or powerful Southern White men get away with.
McConnell must be asked how much he knew and how much he covered up?
"For years as a Kentucky judge, Tim Nolan sat in judgment of others. Now he sits in jail, awaiting trial on explosive accusations by prosecutors that he snared 17 women and juveniles into having sex over a seven-year period by using money, drugs and threats".
He used drugs and threats to ensnare women. Kentucky is also a State with the worst opioid addictions.
"Judge Nolan faces charges of human trafficking, rape, prostitution, witness tampering and unlawful transaction with a minor. In all, he faces 20 felony and two misdemeanor counts — and more than 100 years in prison if convicted on all charges".
Will someone ask McConnell how much of this he knew and looked the other way, or protected?
I live in the South, and it is disgusting what many thuggish and/or powerful Southern White men get away with.
McConnell must be asked how much he knew and how much he covered up?
48
Actors, play actors, may spend considerable time with their opposite number developing lines and gestures...and most playwrights explore sexual tension, all the time.
Stuff may happen, or not happen. In any case, it's no ones business but our own
Stuff may happen, or not happen. In any case, it's no ones business but our own
23
I hope that Bill Maher reads this! I came here from Morocco in 1993 as a twenty year old and was struck by how conservative most Americans were! I kind of expected that from the Eisenhower generation but my peers!! Obviously, one finds pockets of open mindedness, but the sex thing described here was a cultural shock and a great disappointment to me till this day. Every woman you talk to puts up walls, gay men you are open and interested to be friends with lose interest once they know you are straight. Once married, single friends especially women desert you. America is a very weird teenage country, still trying to grow to adulthood.
114
I usually am with a group, not a man one on one, when having a drink, dinner, or travelling. Even so, I've never been uncomfortable during those times I've been alone with a work colleague. I have boundaries, and I expect others to have them. If they don't respect a boundary, purposefully or not, it's not at all difficult for me to re-assert a boundary. It seems if people are uncomfortable, they are afraid of something; either their own reactions or their own ability to assert a boundary. Relationships with people at work, regardless of gender, are very important for professional development and building trust to get things done.
39
Something seems somewhat misleading here:
"Working with The Times, Morning Consult, a polling, media and technology company, surveyed 5,300 registered voters in May."
How were the voters Selected?? If they are from a well-designed random sample, then, by an accurate rule of thumb, the overall margin of sampling error would be about 1 / sqrt(5300) = 0.0137, or about 1.4 percentage points, which would indicate a high degree of precision in the results, much better than the typical NYT-CBS News opinion polls.
My guess is that, although The Times assisted with the poll, is the 5300 persons were not selected randomly. (If they were, then why not give the MoSE??)
"Working with The Times, Morning Consult, a polling, media and technology company, surveyed 5,300 registered voters in May."
How were the voters Selected?? If they are from a well-designed random sample, then, by an accurate rule of thumb, the overall margin of sampling error would be about 1 / sqrt(5300) = 0.0137, or about 1.4 percentage points, which would indicate a high degree of precision in the results, much better than the typical NYT-CBS News opinion polls.
My guess is that, although The Times assisted with the poll, is the 5300 persons were not selected randomly. (If they were, then why not give the MoSE??)
17
And that's why the extremely wealthy, and a lot of other people in the World, don't desire to visit Mike Pence's State of Indiana.
25
Deep as a mud puddle.
Keep congregating in large coastal areas and further negating your electoral college strength. Bravo.
Keep congregating in large coastal areas and further negating your electoral college strength. Bravo.
12
who cares. u like men or women. you talk to whom you wanna
12
I'm sorry, is this some kind of an Evangelical or Orthodox survey? This is nuts! In 2017 America, where we are supposed to equality between the two sexes, both sides think that having dinner or drinks or even work meetings alone with a colleague of the opposite sex is wrong?! I'm gobsmacked. As a woman who grew up with a male best friend and a brother, I am much, much more comfortable with men for the most part. I'm married to a man who is secure enough to trust and respect me. I don't think it would even occur to either of us to question this sort of thing. I feel truly sorry for people who have trouble with this.
84
my work in philanthropy required multiple 1:1 meetings with donors regardless of gender. The only problems I had in a 40 year career were with two abusive supervisors, and not the hundreds of generous men and women with whom I had the honor to work.
31
I've written twice about this and the more I think about the last 40 years of work the more ill feelings I have about women in the work place. Frankly it was not a pleasant experience for many of us. It seems to me that women were always angry and mean spirited. Any meaningful and warm relationship I had with women were outside work. There was always a community or cabal of women who felt left out and were so embittered that they took every opportunity to stick it to everyone else including other women. I worked in apparel factories, retail stores and my own enterprises. My last 17 years of work was for the Commonwealth of PA. I was a higher ranked manager who worked for a deputy secretary. It was difficult work, mostly technical IT and also financial analysis. I have a master's in public administration and a master's in finance. I don't hate women. In fact I married two lovely ladies. One for 25 years and another for almost 17 and we're still together. I also have 4 daughters and a son.
But, working with women was always walking on eggs. Sometimes i was approached in an inappropriate manner. Other times I would need to speak with women who worked for me. I always had two people in my office whenever engaging with ladies who I knew from experience would seek to cause trouble.
Mostly I found that women were angry, bitter, resentful, and looking for opportunity to push men aside. I chose not to be alone with women at work. I also chose never to meet them alone after work.
But, working with women was always walking on eggs. Sometimes i was approached in an inappropriate manner. Other times I would need to speak with women who worked for me. I always had two people in my office whenever engaging with ladies who I knew from experience would seek to cause trouble.
Mostly I found that women were angry, bitter, resentful, and looking for opportunity to push men aside. I chose not to be alone with women at work. I also chose never to meet them alone after work.
25
I always found that men got back what they gave out because generally speaking they are still the ones in charge.
65
I'm a woman in my early 30s and I work in house as an attorney for a large company. My job necessitates that I spend time working closely with the more experienced attorneys in my department who train and mentor me -- and these are all men who are older than me. It's not uncommon for me to be alone in my office with one of these guys (or, vice versa, in one of their offices), leaning closely towards each other to review and discuss printouts of my work. This one-on-one interaction is crucial to my development and a hallmark of the apprenticeship-type training we receive as lawyers. Now and again, though, a situation gives me pause. I remember, a few months ago, sitting beside a colleague in his office when he crossed his legs and accidentally brushed his foot against mine under the table. "I'm not playing footsie with you!" he blurted out. I gave him a baffled look - because it was clear he hadn't been trying to be fresh with me. It's bizarre that he should have felt the need to apologize at all, but these are the times in which we live....
64
also I can see that women talk more liberally of other things at the office and express their ipinios on matters other than work while men need to really watch what they say or zip their mouth because anything you might say that some women do not agree with (and multiply this risk by the number of women you work with) can and will be used against you and cost you your job.
17
Ya know -- setting aside genuinely abusive workplace behavior -- were this not so pathetic, it would be flat-out infantile.
Grow the hell up, America.
Grow the hell up, America.
111
This article reports findings across the country and addresses the concern that temptations may occur; however, the anxiety described is comical to someone who has worked for over thirty years in multiple industries on both coasts in atmospheres that are generally respectful of women and where woman are executives.
Guys, maybe the answer is work with more women, treat them like competent colleagues and make sure your actions and comments are always above board. And where we find men behaving badly, call them out. None of this is all that hard and I never had a sister.
Guys, maybe the answer is work with more women, treat them like competent colleagues and make sure your actions and comments are always above board. And where we find men behaving badly, call them out. None of this is all that hard and I never had a sister.
67
As an employment lawyer let me tell you that if you look at federal EEOC statistics, you'll see that racial harassment claims outnumber SH claims. Should there be a study in whether Americans are wary of being alone with someone of another race? Is the lack of one-on-on e time with white ( managers hindering the careers of subordinates of other races?
38
I have no problems with 1-on-1 meetings in the office with female colleagues. However, I prefer to avoid have lunches, dinners and obviously after work drinks without a third person present. Safer for both sides.
Does it hurt opportunities for women to network and bond with male colleagues and potential mentors? Yes perhaps. However, bad optics and potential accusations of and actual harassment or patronage hurt careers of both genders.
Does it hurt opportunities for women to network and bond with male colleagues and potential mentors? Yes perhaps. However, bad optics and potential accusations of and actual harassment or patronage hurt careers of both genders.
23
"Bad optics"? What does that even mean? I'm friends with people at work who are smart, ethical, and share interests with me. I don't care which sex they are. Sometimes we have drinks together. So what?
30
Perhaps men are avoiding being alone with women out of fear of being accused of something that didn't happen. His reputation and career would never recover.
42
Are you implying that most women routinely make false accusations against their male colleagues? Where do you work??
23
He didn't say or imply that, and whether it's routine or substantially less than routine is irrelevant. It happens, and men don't want to be the object of it, in a climate that tells us "women don't lie"! Some do, and I suspect that what is actually disproven is the exception. Sarah Ylen's victims spent years in jail because of her lies.
28
Like alcohol and drugs, most Americans apparently can't handle or control sex. Hence for me the Pence rule makes sense. If everything is so bad here, then why does the US still have the highest rate of female board members, female CEOs, female entrepreneurs, etc., as compared to the rest of the industrialized world ? Of course, there is room for improvement, but it's not all gloom and doom.
12
That is patently absurd. Most adult Americans are capable of handling a lot more than alcohol and sex. It seems like all of these weird, puritanical ideas are being generated from people just like Pence- the Evangelical Right.
22
Tom, I share your concern the the gloom and doom, But what gives you the idea we have the most female business leaders in the industrialized world?
26
I meet with makes and females alone constantly. but not at work, and certainly not with subordinates. in my late twenties I have once been on the receiving end of a sexual harassment insinuation and will not be in that situation again. neither from women not from men. as soon as you are in a position to make career defining decisions about them don't risk your own career. always have a partner in the room.
12
Who are these people that 38% of the women & 29% of the men polled don't think it's okay to drive alone in a car with a colleague? It's disappointing to me that they don't have a more mature attitude towards work.
28
(I don't discount the prevalence of and damage from sexual harassment. If are woman fears that she has every reason to avoid private meetings with men. What I write about below applies only when there is no fear of harassment.)
Do I smell dissociative reaction? Do men fear 1-on-1 meetings with women because they're afraid of their own inappropriate behavior? Are women afraid of being attracted to a man when they're alone? (Switch the genders if you prefer.)
Do I smell dissociative reaction? Do men fear 1-on-1 meetings with women because they're afraid of their own inappropriate behavior? Are women afraid of being attracted to a man when they're alone? (Switch the genders if you prefer.)
9
Guess what? I am a woman who can handle being attracted to someone other than my spouse. As a human being, I am also sexual. Doesn't mean I will act upon it inappropriately. There are lots of attractive people in the world. Should we all wear burkas and blinders??
30
If religious fanatics want to feel that the opposite sex is such a huge threat, well, it's a free country. (Some tips for them, though--you're not as irresistible as you think you are. And you should just work harder and quit thinking about sex.)
BUT: we cannot let such people be in charge of the rest of us.
Republicans, you are responsible for putting such people so close to the apex of power in our nation. You need to fix this problem within your party.
BUT: we cannot let such people be in charge of the rest of us.
Republicans, you are responsible for putting such people so close to the apex of power in our nation. You need to fix this problem within your party.
45
I know of a successful company that has, over time, developed the unwritten policy of not hiring attractive women. They found that too many problems in the office were created by the presence of beautiful women, as the men act out in aggressive, ego-driven ways, and the other women resent the attention they get. To what extent are the unequal employment opportunities for women the result not of misogyny, but rather of practical, if unfortunate, social realities?
18
My brother's company has an unwritten policy of not hiring women of childbearing age, having been burned many times by the expense of providing them with training, then paying maternity leave, then fulfilling the bizarre expectation that a woman can return from maternity to the same job at hours she gets to dictate. It's simply easier to hire only men and older women. You can cry "sexist!" all out like, but in the end, business is business.
12
More like, "sexism is sexism." Your brother is doing something illegal and you seem to be defending it. Tell me- how do the men who choose to have children at your brother's company do?
18
It IS sexist, by every definition of the word. And in America, that's illegal. What about the men at your brother's company who have babies? Any penalties for them?
12
The real issue is corporate gossip as a weapon to demote certain individuals as a method of eliminating inside competitors.
Also, men and women have been culturally trained to exercise power in different manners, so they are often not interacting with the same presumption of combat rules (do not doubt it is combat from both sides).
Men more often favor a top-down hierarchical power structure to eliminate opponents, whereas women more often favor a lateral network to demolish opponents. Same motivation, but from different position points.
Also, men and women have been culturally trained to exercise power in different manners, so they are often not interacting with the same presumption of combat rules (do not doubt it is combat from both sides).
Men more often favor a top-down hierarchical power structure to eliminate opponents, whereas women more often favor a lateral network to demolish opponents. Same motivation, but from different position points.
8
http://www.wcsap.org/how-often-does-it-happen
Every 2 minutes a woman is sexually assaulted in the United States. This may contribute to an underlying fear for women? Men have been raping us since the beginning of time, so it's pretty ingrained. Hell... there are still cults in the US that allow old men to rape little girls [under the guise of "religion"].
My best friend is male. (and I've been married for 18 years). I also am an atheist... I don't have any invisible friends making parameters or rules for me. Pretty simple... I promised my husband to be faithful... so I am.
Every 2 minutes a woman is sexually assaulted in the United States. This may contribute to an underlying fear for women? Men have been raping us since the beginning of time, so it's pretty ingrained. Hell... there are still cults in the US that allow old men to rape little girls [under the guise of "religion"].
My best friend is male. (and I've been married for 18 years). I also am an atheist... I don't have any invisible friends making parameters or rules for me. Pretty simple... I promised my husband to be faithful... so I am.
16
How do you define sexual assault? Some definitions include being asked on a date by a man she finds unattractive, or pleasant compliments about her appearance.
16
Thanks for the input, Pete (and the angry little dudes who've agreed with you and "recommended"), but nope. No thoughtful person defines assault to mean just words. And just because an unwelcome comment is beneficent/complimentary doesn't mean it isn't sexist (say, if it takes place in a work meeting or when you and she both know you're not sincerely asking her out but just reminding her that you have the power to make her pay attention to you).
19
How incredibly weak of body and spirit must our VP be if he would never be alone with a woman other than his wife. He claims to be a devout Christian but he certainly seems to be a pathetic one if he is either so tempted by the flesh or cannot abide others thinking he is. he reminds me of those religious fanatics that can't sit next o a woman on a plane or must cover their women, least they be tempted. Wow, what strength of character.
Pence may well be our President soon, as DJT seems to be imploding. How is he to deal with women in our government to foreign leaders that are female. What an incredible spineless sanctimonious twerp.
Pence may well be our President soon, as DJT seems to be imploding. How is he to deal with women in our government to foreign leaders that are female. What an incredible spineless sanctimonious twerp.
65
Is anyone considering the feelings of transgenders?
3
No.
17
This is about the two predominant sexes in the world. Women (born women) are still being discriminated against. Until men and women are treated equally, there can be no equality for other, newer "genders."
7
On second thought.. a gay person maybe uncomfortable of being alone with same gender?
I thought work is work, a one -on-one meeting should not make us uncomfortable, exercising professionalism.
Do you trust yourself?
I thought work is work, a one -on-one meeting should not make us uncomfortable, exercising professionalism.
Do you trust yourself?
8
As a gay man I can confirm that I would feel very uncomfortable being alone with Pence, but I guarantee he'd be even more uncomfortable.
71
I'm no evangelical, but I wouldn't have dinner alone with another woman other than my wife, either. For one thing, my wife wouldn't like that, and if a man respects his wife, he also respects her feelings. But a business lunch is different - and in that situation, she's OK with it - and men and women as colleagues should know to keep it on a professional level, and I've never encountered a situation where they didn't. Respect each other, and you'll never have a problem, either.
16
Why doesn't your wife like it? She doesn't trust you?
9
Not at all. A lot of women are like that. In fact, I'd say most. It's just natural. Most women regard other women as competition, It's natural. That's just the way it is - and the sooner you understand that fact of life, the better off you will be. My wife and I are happily married. Respect women, and they will respect you. That's the way of the world.
6
What if you're Bi? How does that work?
13
Half of the working-life articles in the New York Times describe the physical and sexual abuse that women suffer in the workplace at the hands of men during private meetings. The other half describe the emotional and career abuse that women suffer at the hands of men who refuse to meet with women privately.
Is this the Times's way of suggesting that women should stay at home, maybe in a female-only area of the household that is off-limits to male visitors?
Is this the Times's way of suggesting that women should stay at home, maybe in a female-only area of the household that is off-limits to male visitors?
16
Time out here. This discussion has nothing to do with Puritanism, or failure to be grown up, or failure to get with The Program--it has to do with men taking reasonable measures to protect themselves from false accusations or misinterpreted words or gestures. And, strangely, many men are not willing to accept women's determination of what is reasonable.
To the extent that anyone believes this is a time to decry Mike Pence, his running mate, Christianity or old-fogeyism, please find another board.
To the extent that anyone believes this is a time to decry Mike Pence, his running mate, Christianity or old-fogeyism, please find another board.
19
Isn't is sad, and unfortunate, that we cannot interact with each other, male and female, without suspicion and innuendo?
17
People extremely interested, even obsessed with the sex lives of others are just creepy. PEROID. Tend your own garden. Do your own weeding and plucking.
13
Vestiges of our Puritanical past. Let these anal people with phobias get passed up by people who know how to act professional. I get along fine with women, and men. I know how to control my instincts and desires, I am an adult.
18
I am married and more than half my closest friends are single men. I spend time with them alone. I have slept in their bedrooms (on a mattress on the floor - and got accidentally stomped on in the middle of the night!!), watched horror movies alone with grabbing their arms in terror, ordered delivery and eaten dinner with them, spent til 2am at their house, had text message fights, gone to football games. What would my life be like without these relationships??? I think pretty rubbish.
My husband, however, spends little to no time with women friends alone. I don't even know if he has any female friends. It's not that he doesn't like women, he's just always doing outdoor activities with other men - skating, surfing etc.
My husband, however, spends little to no time with women friends alone. I don't even know if he has any female friends. It's not that he doesn't like women, he's just always doing outdoor activities with other men - skating, surfing etc.
19
I read through about thee hundred of these comments, and saw a lot of attacks on Christian moralizing, blame on the modern age etc. etc.
Evidently all the Jews are asleep today, or else posted very early on, because for those who identify as Orthodox, there are EXTREMELY strict rules governing men and women being alone together, even if they are unmarried I believe. Some solutions to problems mentioned here are glass walls in offices so if need be the parties can be observed etc. So it is not only "Christian" morality that "pontificates" here etc.
Fortunately, the Israeli Supreme Court has just ruled in favor of women not being forced to give up the seats on transatlantic flights, just so a married man does not have to occupy the seat next to them.
This (all) is a multifaceted, complex argument that gets at the root of human habits and behavior, however, women have been demonized for far too long as being solely responsible for men's susceptibility to transgression rather than men taking more of a share of responsibility themselves for their own behavior. We all know (and this is different tack) that men who are on the outside virtuous, upstanding, "moral" citizens can be real snakes when it comes to their true natures.
People have entirely too many hang-ups, fears and insecurities and need to learn to coexist in more harmonious ways. Tight-laced people rarely are spontaneous and this ultimately leads to sterility. A lot of this then comes out in very seamy ways.
Evidently all the Jews are asleep today, or else posted very early on, because for those who identify as Orthodox, there are EXTREMELY strict rules governing men and women being alone together, even if they are unmarried I believe. Some solutions to problems mentioned here are glass walls in offices so if need be the parties can be observed etc. So it is not only "Christian" morality that "pontificates" here etc.
Fortunately, the Israeli Supreme Court has just ruled in favor of women not being forced to give up the seats on transatlantic flights, just so a married man does not have to occupy the seat next to them.
This (all) is a multifaceted, complex argument that gets at the root of human habits and behavior, however, women have been demonized for far too long as being solely responsible for men's susceptibility to transgression rather than men taking more of a share of responsibility themselves for their own behavior. We all know (and this is different tack) that men who are on the outside virtuous, upstanding, "moral" citizens can be real snakes when it comes to their true natures.
People have entirely too many hang-ups, fears and insecurities and need to learn to coexist in more harmonious ways. Tight-laced people rarely are spontaneous and this ultimately leads to sterility. A lot of this then comes out in very seamy ways.
14
This article suggests that there is far more gender discrimination in the workplace than I really imagined. I have seen a good bit of gender discrimination first hand. What this article says is that good ole boy system is here to stay, given the climate in the workplace that this article highlights. It is really hard to be a women these days and feel that you have a fair shot.
Where is all this marital insecurity coming from? That seems to be the big issue here.
Where is all this marital insecurity coming from? That seems to be the big issue here.
10
My take on Vice President Pence's...he is an evangelical bible literalist (he once say he was a Christian, a conservative and then a Republican.). He takes the story of Adam and then...Eve literally, seeing woman as the source of mankind's fall from Eden into a world very different than the one originally established by you know who. And so, he deeply distrusts them. His wife, "Mother" to him is a woman who exists to 'compliment' the life of Man. This is gender essentialism and it's not completely uncommon. This, to people like him are the reason God made woman. People like Pence and others in use their personal religious or personal beliefs as a prejudice (look up the meaning if you're not certain here) about an entire population of people who happen to have ovaries or two X chromosomes. To me it's discriminatory not to be willing to trust yourself (!!) with someone of the opposite sex and worse, to then justify precluding women from your professional network, including driving in a car, taking a train, having lunch, working late together, or having a job that might require alone time with a man. Lastly...look at Pence's views about Planned Parenthood and rape law in Indiana. It's beyond retrograde. This is no small matter, since he is second in line to the Presidency.
31
Couple of comments back towards this comment:
1) your basic premise of what happened in the Garden of Eden is wrong. A Bible literalist as you put it woodsy not just Eve causing the downfall but she then gave the Frog to the man who also ate the fruit thus also causing the downfall. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that some mood view this as it's all the woman's fault. I guess if the Bible said eve ate the fruit and the man just looked on in dismay then I can see your point but it's very clear that the Bible says the man ate the fruit as well.
2) As far as vice president Pence not wanting to have dinner with females other than his wife, in politics especially when you're talking president and Vice President level, I totally see vice-president Pence's standpoint. You don't think there'd be some media Outlet that started insinuating Things based on a picture of them eating somewhere together? And that's more of a judgement towards Society as it is that anything else. I think if the media was more concerned about being factual then this won't be a problem. But they're not.
1) your basic premise of what happened in the Garden of Eden is wrong. A Bible literalist as you put it woodsy not just Eve causing the downfall but she then gave the Frog to the man who also ate the fruit thus also causing the downfall. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that some mood view this as it's all the woman's fault. I guess if the Bible said eve ate the fruit and the man just looked on in dismay then I can see your point but it's very clear that the Bible says the man ate the fruit as well.
2) As far as vice president Pence not wanting to have dinner with females other than his wife, in politics especially when you're talking president and Vice President level, I totally see vice-president Pence's standpoint. You don't think there'd be some media Outlet that started insinuating Things based on a picture of them eating somewhere together? And that's more of a judgement towards Society as it is that anything else. I think if the media was more concerned about being factual then this won't be a problem. But they're not.
4
Haha lots of voice typing errors in my response.
Tl;dr
Both man and woman sinned originally in Genesis so neither is to blame more than the other and God looks at all sin equally so each sin is equally Grievous.
I understand Pence's rule being in politics. The media goes crazy were certain moments and I think a photograph of him with another woman would be a problem. To the greater United States, I do think it's kind of sad that men and women have to be wary of being alone together in a workplace environment.
Tl;dr
Both man and woman sinned originally in Genesis so neither is to blame more than the other and God looks at all sin equally so each sin is equally Grievous.
I understand Pence's rule being in politics. The media goes crazy were certain moments and I think a photograph of him with another woman would be a problem. To the greater United States, I do think it's kind of sad that men and women have to be wary of being alone together in a workplace environment.
1
I am so dismayed to read these statistics. And I'm incredulous.
Really?! Most men have women in their lives who are important to them. Most women have men in their lives who are important to them.
I know there are pervs out there but goodness, get a grip. The notion you can't have a business dinner or drinks with someone of the opposite sex without it being compromising... yikes! I've worked in tech for more than 30 years and it's never been a problem. Have we forgotten how to be professionals??
Really?! Most men have women in their lives who are important to them. Most women have men in their lives who are important to them.
I know there are pervs out there but goodness, get a grip. The notion you can't have a business dinner or drinks with someone of the opposite sex without it being compromising... yikes! I've worked in tech for more than 30 years and it's never been a problem. Have we forgotten how to be professionals??
40
I'm going out on a limb here but I think us tech folk are different, and have been ahead of this curve for a long time.
1
Oh, like the fine folks at Uber?
9
Two years ago I would have agreed with you, now I know that it's possible that a professional colleague might be willing to leverage gender in order to manipulate perceptions and cause damage to another's (my) reputation in order to achieve a secondary gain.
10
It is way safer to avoid the opposite sex especially if alcohol is involved. It is scientific fact that women's body process alcohol slower than men's. That means that get drunk faster with less alcohol. Women are also prone to freeze or go slient if something happens. Play it safe don't drink with them and don't befriend them. Keep it super professional
9
Women "tend to freeze" What are you even talking about? I feel really, really sorry for a lot of people who are commenting here. To have such distrust and dislike of the opposite sex is unhealthy and no way to go through life.
13
Alcohol and colleagues don't mix, at least for me. Limiting who you'll deal with by yourself can be a problem in the workplace, know how to spot and deal assertively with people who act outside your comfort zone. People who're prone to inappropriate behavior only get worse with alcohol so avoiding those situations is a good idea.
5
One note about separation of the sexes in education. I attended all-girls Catholic schools for 8 years. I loved it and was challenged academically after being a trouble maker at a previous school. My point is all-girls education can be a unique experience where for students who are struggling or not fitting in can sometimes find a place to flourish. I do think at certain ages for learning it is healthy to separate girls and boys is my point - it can work for some children and teens and some of the older religious Catholic schools still do it. However, this must end at highschool graduation. My mom attended Bryn Mawr before it was co-ed and she didn't recommend the all-girl education past highschool.
6
What is changing in society that causes people to see each other as sexual objects rather than individuals? Is it religious teachings that instill prurient motives into all male/female interactions?
What social ques are we instilling in our children that they cannot regard a person of the opposite sex as a friend? We are turning back the social calendar to the 1950s and who exactly is inspiring such a movement? The Evangelicals? The Christians? Who?
What social ques are we instilling in our children that they cannot regard a person of the opposite sex as a friend? We are turning back the social calendar to the 1950s and who exactly is inspiring such a movement? The Evangelicals? The Christians? Who?
10
There is nothing new about men viewing women as sexual objects, prey and trophies. Where have you been?
9
It seems that there is confusion between fear of sexual harassment (which perhaps is the main reason why women are uncomfortable with one on ones with the opposite sex) and belief that it is inappropriate (because it creates temptation or is otherwise deemed against good mores).
8
There is also fear of being wrongly accused of sexual harassment.
22
Did the survey ask individuals if they were uncomfortable meeting with the opposite sex, or if the respondent was uncomfortable with their spouse having a meeting/drink/meal with a co-worker of the opposite sex? Isn't this more of a referendum about marriages?
For those of us who are single and self-employed, this is nonsense.
For those of us who are single and self-employed, this is nonsense.
9
Have we reached the point where, if coworkers of the opposite sex treat each other with professionalism and respect, there is still the risk of a charge of inappropriate behavior by one party or the other? If so, this country has lost its collective mind.
12
This country lost its collective mind in November 1980, and its soul in November 2016.
46
Yep, that pretty much nails it.
8
... ummmmm ... did you adjust your statistics to account for LGBTQ folks like me could care less if they are alone with straight men or women, and have none of the 'inappropriate' worries or 'alone' concerns you mention regarding the 'opposite sex'? ...
8
No, it obviously is not a survey about that. That would be a completely different survey,
10
I've learned long ago not to believe everything I read in the NYTS - and i read it every day. I find the Upshot series to be especially off-base more often than not. I guess you could call it provocative.
3
What do you mean? The Upshot said Hillary Clinton had an 80% chance of winning the presidency. How could you lose faith in the Upshot?
6
JP: If the people at the Upshot were referring to the popular vote, as most prognosticators were, they were on the money. Further, 80% is not 100%.
6
rella: They were not referring to the popular vote (don't cover for them). They were referring to winning the presidency. And, how much faith are going you going to put in future claims that have only a 20% of being correct?
3
Looks to me like a no-win situation. The religious right and the ultra-left share a sensitivity that we must get beyond if we are to work together as people. This is a Rodney King moment; "Can't we all just get along?"
11
What's wrong with wanting to avoid the appearance of impropriety, or not creating and element of gossip? It's sad that the NYTimes felt the need to interject the Vice Presidents name into the topic since most Fortune 500 CEO's are equally wise.
For as long as I can remember when visiting a rabbi, priest, pastor, university dean in their office the door was always left ajar never closed unless the door or room had glass windows where we could ne seen.
You go to the doctor and the general rule is if it's someone of the opposite sex, there is a nurse in the room. At work when I need to meet with someone I choose a room that has windows along the hall area so we can be seen, not heard.
As for dining with someone of the opposite sex other than ones partner/spouse as long as it's in a open seating area and not a cozy booth and ones partner/spouse knows so they can tell anyone 'yes I know he/she had a work dinner with so and so', I feel that's probably acceptable in many situations.
And let's no forget many white collar corporations, law offices, have dress codes where one is not allowed to dress in a provocative manner. Not because they are old fogies, but because a sense of professionalism projects a positive image.
For as long as I can remember when visiting a rabbi, priest, pastor, university dean in their office the door was always left ajar never closed unless the door or room had glass windows where we could ne seen.
You go to the doctor and the general rule is if it's someone of the opposite sex, there is a nurse in the room. At work when I need to meet with someone I choose a room that has windows along the hall area so we can be seen, not heard.
As for dining with someone of the opposite sex other than ones partner/spouse as long as it's in a open seating area and not a cozy booth and ones partner/spouse knows so they can tell anyone 'yes I know he/she had a work dinner with so and so', I feel that's probably acceptable in many situations.
And let's no forget many white collar corporations, law offices, have dress codes where one is not allowed to dress in a provocative manner. Not because they are old fogies, but because a sense of professionalism projects a positive image.
16
I think the rule that if you don't want to tell your spouse about the dinner or meeting then you probably shouldn't be doing it is a good way to decide which activities are appropriate or not appropriate.
8
In a state job in the 80's I often traveled w/male colleagues, often overnight, often just two of us. We weren't traveling as friends, we were professionals on the job. As a female and younger than colleagues I worked hard to be taken seriously. Can't imagine how I'd have managed if I couldn't trust them enough to eat or drive with them “alone”. I'm an attorney, many we worked with were clinical pros. So we had deeply ingrained professional/ethical codes. And a highly respected woman leading our Agency. I think we're failing to assure an overall culture of "professionalism" where everyone is accountable so all can expect a functional adult workplace. Must come from the top and apply to all. The workplace isn't your living room, kitchen, a club. It may have such amenities but it's still a workplace. Making the workplace “fun” too often seems to mean a weird adolescent male fantasy world where it's difficult for “girls” to be taken seriously. Is professionalism too “PC”, out-of-date? Then gather all stakeholders and update. The level of fear in this survey is shocking, retrograde. Some reliably enforced common expectation of neutrality, respect, boundaries, i.e., “professionalism” is essential so diverse people can work together, be taken seriously and be appreciated for their contributions free from the “noise” of people's various personal beliefs, prejudices, judgments
33
Yes, US Americans are indeed confused about life in general. A puerile, trivial society.
20
Good grief! I am retired 70 year old retired professional and never gave a second thought to dinner meetings alone with a man OR simply dinner or drinks with a male friend. One marriage with a man and heading toward fifty year anniversary - no problems or temptations.
39
Many adult professionals of both genders and various ages meet, dine, and travel together with absolutely nothing inappropriate going on.
Mature professionals are quite able to deal with attractive people without bringing in romantic or sexual feelings.
Mature professionals are quite able to deal with attractive people without bringing in romantic or sexual feelings.
30
I find it hard to believe that the women who consider these things inappropriate have any real working experience. What would they do if they had to have a private meeting with a male superior? Refuse? Insist their husband sit in? I don't think so.
34
Excuse me while I call my big husband/boyfriend to come watch you while we discuss my job.
19
The French and Italians are laughing in their espressos....we are still in the 'dark ages' this side of the pond.
31
French and Italians are laughing because they see nothing wrong with extra marital affairs.
13
How do you know??
2
As an evangelical, I am very familiar with the ethic of not being alone with a person of the opposite sex other than family or a spouse. There is wisdom in this stance, as it does make a lot of complicated and dubious scenarios impossible, but I've come to believe it is not necessary to take such a hard-line, across the board view.
Context is everything. After all, Jesus himself allowed his feet to be washed with the hair of a weeping, repentant woman. How inappropriately intimate! He also was famously alone with the woman at the well. Scandalous!
Context is everything. After all, Jesus himself allowed his feet to be washed with the hair of a weeping, repentant woman. How inappropriately intimate! He also was famously alone with the woman at the well. Scandalous!
11
Many of the posts here, written by predominantly male posters citing fear of being falsely accused of misbehavior as their rationale for not ever being "alone" with a woman other than a partner, sound like pitches for bad B-movies in the 1930's: Vengeful vixen ruins good man's life; Sexy succubus destroys man's family life with her threats and accusations; etc.
In the late 80's, following on the heels of Play Misty for Me, came Fatal Attraction, and then a number of lesser films (into the early 90's) that focused on "dangerous single, over-sexed, obsessive women" who would destroy an honest guy's life. After just "one mistake," and this wicked home-wrecking minx declared full-out war.
Oh, goodness. Some risk assessment here for you innumerates. Guys, do you get in your cars every day and drive, despite traffic fatality and injury statistics? Do you eat out at restaurants, risking food poisoning? Have you ever been struck by lightning? But with these attitudes, it's probably a good thing you DON'T befriend a woman ever. If every encounter with a person of the female persuasion (regardless of her own sexual orientation?) leaves you sweating and nervous and over-wrought, then it's best you stay locked in your office or home.
In the late 80's, following on the heels of Play Misty for Me, came Fatal Attraction, and then a number of lesser films (into the early 90's) that focused on "dangerous single, over-sexed, obsessive women" who would destroy an honest guy's life. After just "one mistake," and this wicked home-wrecking minx declared full-out war.
Oh, goodness. Some risk assessment here for you innumerates. Guys, do you get in your cars every day and drive, despite traffic fatality and injury statistics? Do you eat out at restaurants, risking food poisoning? Have you ever been struck by lightning? But with these attitudes, it's probably a good thing you DON'T befriend a woman ever. If every encounter with a person of the female persuasion (regardless of her own sexual orientation?) leaves you sweating and nervous and over-wrought, then it's best you stay locked in your office or home.
27
You are in denial and perhaps living in the past. False accusations are a very real worry for men today.
8
And, the one condescending to males' concern over false accusations is: a woman. Strange, that.
3
Navigator, men who fear false accusations by women are imagining things. There is no basis in fact for such worry. Exercise that famous male rationality and get real.
6
Wow, I thought people were way beyond this and knew to respect others and make them feel safe. I'm beginning to see how someone like Trump got elected, America really is populated by children.
32
The segregation of women and men ended. We share space and work together. Anyone who can't behave should lose their job.
28
I was raised in the period of straightforward puritanism and it was awful for both sexes. Then it calmed down and finally went to the other extreme in the 60s.
In my professional life I had all sorts of relations with women I employed. They were friendly, easy, and non-domineering. When the semi-men of hard core feminism came forth I watched it all change. Men became bitter and women became bitter. The divorce rate shot up and the men/women relations became arms length. Extremes like Tiger Woods and JFK, Trump and the Clintons became front page news and destroyed the pleasure of simple human relations between the sexes. It is now about fear and dominance.
We have regressed to cavemen/cavewomen, but the clubs have changed hands - which makes it no better for either sex.
In my professional life I had all sorts of relations with women I employed. They were friendly, easy, and non-domineering. When the semi-men of hard core feminism came forth I watched it all change. Men became bitter and women became bitter. The divorce rate shot up and the men/women relations became arms length. Extremes like Tiger Woods and JFK, Trump and the Clintons became front page news and destroyed the pleasure of simple human relations between the sexes. It is now about fear and dominance.
We have regressed to cavemen/cavewomen, but the clubs have changed hands - which makes it no better for either sex.
12
translation please....
This seems silly and sad to me. If you can't trust your life partner to have dinner with someone of the opposite sex and not get into trouble, what does that say about your level of trust in the relationship?
For people who say it's out of respect for their partner, respect how? What could possibly go on at a dinner with someone of the opposite sex that would be disrespectful of your partner, unless you had intentions of messing around?
It makes no sense. It treats the entire opposite gender as somehow vaguely dangerous.
I feel sad for people who are so afraid of (something) that they can't enjoy the company of another human just because of that person's gender.
For people who say it's out of respect for their partner, respect how? What could possibly go on at a dinner with someone of the opposite sex that would be disrespectful of your partner, unless you had intentions of messing around?
It makes no sense. It treats the entire opposite gender as somehow vaguely dangerous.
I feel sad for people who are so afraid of (something) that they can't enjoy the company of another human just because of that person's gender.
21
Leave it to the New York Times to bring Republican politics into an article about poll results discussing male/female relationships at work. It is always negative coverage and never complimentary when discussing anything about the Republicans. You would not treat Democrats in this manner and this proves your bias reporting. Couldn't you have written this article and kept politics out of it. It still would have been newsworthy and interesting.
15
WMK New York City the NYTimes will probably make the excuse that they used Vice President as a jumping off point for the article, which made me laugh since many a young high tech CEO in Silicon Valley has noted they don't meet alone with a woman unless it's in an open environment or like at Facebook, and all glass room visible by all of those outside. Once again the NYTimes misses the importance of old fashioned common sense. Sad.
6
It's completely valid because Republicans and Democrats do think differently about issues such as this one with Pence being the prime example of that. There's nothing in the reporting that's "negative" about Republicans. You're just choosing to interpret it that way.
10
Wow! People in the United States need to travel to the Nordic countries and experience what gender equality looks like. This article suggests that people see no way out, or understand the limitations of their circumstances. I am incredulous that in 2017, the social relations of gender in the US are so stilted .....If this article was not reporting the so called "facts" of the matter, I couldn't imagine even making up such a description of life in the US.
22
I've worked at one company where this was a problem (false rumors and real ill-advised hookups) and another where it was not. The difference was a positive, engaged HR department. Folks need to be reminded to act right at work or risk losing their jobs.
13
When the man was the breadwinner and the woman stayed at home, we had greater income equality, Now we have greedy upper middle class couples hogging two jobs.
7
Right, Ed. Just how was there income equality when the man went out to work and the woman stayed home? Are you aware that most middle-class families can't afford not to have two people working?
13
You must have been sooo happy in the 1950s. Was the Donna Reed show one of your favorites? Or was it Ozzie and Harriot?
10
It is technically true in that part of the distribution is single parent households and couples where only one spouse has a job because childcare is expensive or high unemployment, and higher earning households drive prices up.
5
Find a surprising result from ONE study, then pair it with bizarre comments from the VP and his choice to not dine with any woman but his wife, and - voila! - you have an op-ed.
I would appreciate if the author would qualify that this is the result of one study and that, in all likelihood, Americans are not the anti-social, closeted sexual deviants the poll makes us out to be. Certainly don't let Mike Pence speak for all American men. I'm willing to be that only a small minority are as ignorant and close-minded as he is when it comes to relationships between men and women.
I would appreciate if the author would qualify that this is the result of one study and that, in all likelihood, Americans are not the anti-social, closeted sexual deviants the poll makes us out to be. Certainly don't let Mike Pence speak for all American men. I'm willing to be that only a small minority are as ignorant and close-minded as he is when it comes to relationships between men and women.
20
There is a saying that if men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament. In a similar vein, how would things be different if women risked being accused of sexual harassment every time they laid a finger on a co-worker?
8
As a woman who has worked in a male dominated profession for about 30 years I was somewhat dumbfounded by this article. All I could think of are the numerous business trips and meetings I have participated in - often with one man or 20+ men. Should I have had dinner separately? Not attended the meetings? Of course not! And with one exception, which was ignored and didn't go very far, it was fine.
Could it be generational? Not to generalize, but I had a conversation recently with a younger female colleague at a business event. She was telling me about all of the times she was hit on. I was genuinely outraged. And then one of the "hittees" stopped by and she went into full blown flirt mode - "where's my hug?!" What?!
I sometimes wonder if what to this aging baby boomer seems like a more stereotyped gender identity than we had 40 years ago has led to men and women not capable of interacting professionally without sexuality interfering. Considering the real lack of opportunity faced by my generation that's sad - and much more insidious.
Could it be generational? Not to generalize, but I had a conversation recently with a younger female colleague at a business event. She was telling me about all of the times she was hit on. I was genuinely outraged. And then one of the "hittees" stopped by and she went into full blown flirt mode - "where's my hug?!" What?!
I sometimes wonder if what to this aging baby boomer seems like a more stereotyped gender identity than we had 40 years ago has led to men and women not capable of interacting professionally without sexuality interfering. Considering the real lack of opportunity faced by my generation that's sad - and much more insidious.
37
Well, they're certainly not going to listen to you: WAY too much sense.
9
Those of us who pioneered in the 70's and 80's in male dominated fields are constantly amazed by how things have changed and how in-empowered today's women are. In the 1970's when I was in my twenties (1978-1986, age 24-32) I works as a blue collar worker in a industrial research lab. For a couple of years, I was in a building with seven men and no other woman and we shared a bathroom. They were always respectful of the fact that I didn't expect them to do all of the dirty or heavy work, even when it meant I had to go get a tool or something to help with tasks that were relatively easy for a man with superior upper body strength. One of my supervisors commented that he was glad women had come to work there, because the men had cleaned up their language.
When I was 32, I quit, finished my accounting BS, got an MS in accounting and reinvented myself as an accountant in a manufacturing company at 35. Over the next 25 years, I spent time in meetings where I was the only woman and non engineer and traveled on business with men, married and single, had dinner and lunch alone with men on the road and did not run into any situations that I couldn't manage. I did discover that for some men the comment, "I'm separated from my wife" means she is not physically present with him at that moment. The reality is that most men are decent human beings, are not exploitive, and extend protection to women in their area of control, sometimes with nothing more than a raised eyebrow.
When I was 32, I quit, finished my accounting BS, got an MS in accounting and reinvented myself as an accountant in a manufacturing company at 35. Over the next 25 years, I spent time in meetings where I was the only woman and non engineer and traveled on business with men, married and single, had dinner and lunch alone with men on the road and did not run into any situations that I couldn't manage. I did discover that for some men the comment, "I'm separated from my wife" means she is not physically present with him at that moment. The reality is that most men are decent human beings, are not exploitive, and extend protection to women in their area of control, sometimes with nothing more than a raised eyebrow.
11
What's this, an early attempt to normalize the man who may soon be our next president? Sorry, but Pence is just as weird and nowhere near normal as Trump is. And there is something seriously fake-newsy about this outlandish alleged survey that suggests the whole world shares Pence's highly peculiar, Sharia-like aversion to being alone with a woman in any context. Where and when was this survey conducted, at a church in 1950? In 2017 in America, women are treated as equals, and anyone who feels sexual tension in a business lunch, or who thinks business lunches are the wrong places for women in the first place, ought to find a way to make a living working all alone.
27
There is a lot of guilt and fear fantasies still creeping in to our lives from the various dying religious organizations and their associated beliefs.
11
This is just sick. As an ICU nurse it would have been impossible to only work alone with another woman. What is wrong with our society? Of course I wake up everyday to find Trump is still president and I wonder what is wrong with this society.
32
This is ridiculous and just another way of keeping women "in their place." I've had male friends all my life, drunk alcohol, stayed at one another's apartments, and never a problem. Conservatives apparently cannot conceive of a member of the opposite sex in any but sexual terms so they're terrified of trusting themselves or their spouses. They really need to relax.
30
You think your world is free; they're going to make you fight for it by impinging on your world one bathroom stall and law at a time.
3
You're proving my point. Take a deep breath and try not to think so much about bathroom stalls.
6
Oh brother,you teeny tiny people.
I never shut the door. I'm gay, so the scene with women is non-existent. For guys, I'm not trolling for sex at work. Meanwhile Mile Pence, dial it down. Nobody wants to sleep with you.
I never shut the door. I'm gay, so the scene with women is non-existent. For guys, I'm not trolling for sex at work. Meanwhile Mile Pence, dial it down. Nobody wants to sleep with you.
38
I read in New Scientist magazine that there is an inherent bias between the sexes. A woman just being normal polite friendly no matter what tends to be interpreted by men as flirting. So this can explain some men's reluctance to be alone with the opposite sex. If you're the woman having a one one one business meeting, smile less.
2
And then you get accused of being a humorless shrew. There is no winning with some people. In most instances, just ignore the stupid and do your job, and you'll be fine. And if there is harassment involved, cut it off at the knees immediately.
15
Smile less? Stop being pleasant? I think you have it backwards. Men need to be better socialized.
8
Of course, this topic brings something else to mind.
Would any of Trump’s female staffers feel safe alone with him; door open or closed? I’ll bet the answer is no.
Would any of Trump’s female staffers feel safe alone with him; door open or closed? I’ll bet the answer is no.
16
So, Mike Pence wouldn't dare have a meal with a woman other than his wife because of appearances but he would make mortgage and car payments with campaign funds. Must be a republican thing.
26
It's the sinning in OTHER American's hearts that get you in trouble. Jimmy Carter made it too personal. It's not what YOU'RE thinking, it's what the OTHERS think...you're thinking.
2
I work at home because I am a caregiver and my disabled spouse's safety is more important to me than commuting to a distant office when I can perform the same duties of work at home. I no longer have to be concerned about sexual harassment, or any kind of harassment, because I no longer have to suffer the dubious company of untrustworthy strangers who make up lies--sexual and otherwise--about coworkers; accuse them of mistakes they haven't made; time how long they take to use the toilet, or report them if they take five minutes longer to return from lunch; and other annoyances that make working with other people so tiresome. I prefer to be very selective of the company I keep. Far too many coworkers are looking for a listening ear that they can use for their selfish complaints about the problems in their lives they are unwilling to tackle. A old friend retired due to stress when his boss murdered his wife and her lover at his workplace, and then himself. That's another reason to work at home--one is less likely to be caught in a mass workplace shooting because some Americans prefer to kill rather than walk away from trouble. If Americans are uncomfortable around one another, it's because we have given far too much latitude and sympathy to troublemakers and dangerous people.
5
As a woman who works in IT and travels probably 40% of the time, I literally couldn't do my job if most men had these backwards attitudes. IT is still a male-dominated field and one on one meetings with men are absolutely unavoidable. Also budgets are not so large on travel that you can always guarantee there will be more than two people; are a male and female co-worker always supposed to eat breakfast, lunch and dinner on travel separately then? That's silly.
15
I don't think a work meeting with a woman is inappropriate, but it is somewhat dangerous. A mere accusation can ruin not just a job, but a whole life. I sometimes had to interview job applicants at my former job. I told my boss that I would not be alone with an applicant of either sex, because a person who wasn't hired might claim that I had demanded something inappropriate as a condition of my recommendation. It's just common sense.
7
A woman's place is in the home.
3
Sounds like a heterosexual problem.
6
That is, to put it mildly, insensitive to those of us who have had to deal with unwanted attention from persons of the same sex.
6
Not really.
Pence is dead wrong about just about everything, but all the flak about his dining habits was a bum rap, and this article proves it.
2
What is there to “figure out?” Man, woman, HUMAN. It’s easy to understand.
French colleagues tell me Americans wouldn’t dare hold a meeting with a member of the opposite sex behind closed doors. As a Philly girl, I’ve proceeded to tell them how ridiculous their understanding is. A French colleague in San Francisco told me American men and women walking in the street do not make eye contact. I said he was exaggerating. When the French call Americans “puritain,” I rush to our collective defense.
I’ve been away too long.
I'm shocked by this survey and this sentence: “The results show the extent to which sex is an implicit part of our interactions.”
“Sex” refers to the biological differences between males and females. "Gender" refers to roles, behavior and identity.
If “sex” is interfering with the interactions we are/aren't having, we're in trouble. The “precautions” and “protocol” referred to in this article reflect fear. Doesn’t the Bible encourage us to “Love thy Neighbor?”
Fear and love: two ends of the emotional spectrum. When we live in fear, our brains and hearts shut down. Often, we’re not even aware we’re afraid. So, we can't adjust our perspective.
Instead of implicitly focusing on our genital differences, let's consciously focus on what we have in common. Realizing our humanity has no sex would enable us to relate to one another more effectively and with greater trust. Embodying our “masculine” & “feminine” behavioral traits would make us more complete. Voilà!
French colleagues tell me Americans wouldn’t dare hold a meeting with a member of the opposite sex behind closed doors. As a Philly girl, I’ve proceeded to tell them how ridiculous their understanding is. A French colleague in San Francisco told me American men and women walking in the street do not make eye contact. I said he was exaggerating. When the French call Americans “puritain,” I rush to our collective defense.
I’ve been away too long.
I'm shocked by this survey and this sentence: “The results show the extent to which sex is an implicit part of our interactions.”
“Sex” refers to the biological differences between males and females. "Gender" refers to roles, behavior and identity.
If “sex” is interfering with the interactions we are/aren't having, we're in trouble. The “precautions” and “protocol” referred to in this article reflect fear. Doesn’t the Bible encourage us to “Love thy Neighbor?”
Fear and love: two ends of the emotional spectrum. When we live in fear, our brains and hearts shut down. Often, we’re not even aware we’re afraid. So, we can't adjust our perspective.
Instead of implicitly focusing on our genital differences, let's consciously focus on what we have in common. Realizing our humanity has no sex would enable us to relate to one another more effectively and with greater trust. Embodying our “masculine” & “feminine” behavioral traits would make us more complete. Voilà!
9
When I was a young physician just out of training I was accused of sexual harassment by a co-worker. Fortunately the incident in question was witnessed by a senior female administrator who vehemently came to my defense.
Now that I am older and in a position of leadership, I would rather not risk any potential false accusations. So I prefer groups of at least three.
Now that I am older and in a position of leadership, I would rather not risk any potential false accusations. So I prefer groups of at least three.
11
Thanks. Your story is a good example of the dangers.
Though I believe MOST people are reasonable and would not either harass or make false accusations, unfortunately, for self protection, we must base our behavior on the few unreasonable people we are bound to encounter over a lifetime.
Though I believe MOST people are reasonable and would not either harass or make false accusations, unfortunately, for self protection, we must base our behavior on the few unreasonable people we are bound to encounter over a lifetime.
5
"A majority of women, and nearly half of men, say it’s unacceptable to have dinner or drinks alone with someone of the opposite sex other than their spouse."
Really, America? You don't look all that sexy from a distance even. Get over yourselves...
Really, America? You don't look all that sexy from a distance even. Get over yourselves...
16
Exactly right. Who are these people who think they are just so desirable that the opposite sex can't hold themselves back? I'd like to see more info about just what group of "registered voters" got these questions. People who have careers just would not answer like this. Who doesn't have friends of the opposite sex? Something is wrong with this group.
12
I am speechless at the number of men who are afraid of false accusations of sexual harassment. The easiest way to avoid such a situation is to be professional to everyone, men and women. If you are prone to making inappropriate comments to the opposite sex, take a look at yourself and ask why that is and then try to correct it. If you are attracted to someone at work, you can ask them out, but if they say no, listen and stop bothering them. It is not complicated. If you think something might be inappropriate, it probably is. If you say something stupid, apologize. We are all human and we all want to be treated respectfully, remember that and you should be fine.
15
Reading this about Mike Pence just highlights more, how sleepy comfy he is. All wrapped in his tea cup egg shell environment. And those like him. I am surprised he got this far. Well, now the whole World knows about what little education credentials are required for these Political Jobs. Political Science is not the most prestigious department at the University. Far from, actually. Should it be at the University at all? The Highest Ranked University in the World, does not have this department. It doesn't have the Divinity department either.
3
I don't think its about sexuality at all. In the workplace, it is about preservation.
I have seen numerous instances where a subordinate, stuck in the same position for years, fabricates a harrasment claim and uses it to advance their career.
Of course, that goes both ways but as a employee of a large corporation, i trust no one.
I have seen numerous instances where a subordinate, stuck in the same position for years, fabricates a harrasment claim and uses it to advance their career.
Of course, that goes both ways but as a employee of a large corporation, i trust no one.
9
Woman have brought a lot of this on themselves what with the definition of sexual harassment seemingly being whatever the woman says it is.
Men are too nervous around woman who seem to take offence at everything and anything.
And if a woman does take offence, then the man can lose his job.
I know many men who no longer hire women to work with them as women now equal risk and it's safer to hire a man.
Having a solo meeting with a woman is a risk.
And these are men who are not harassing women or anti-women, but all know their careers can be on the line if a women gets upset at anything or heaven forbid, cries. If a woman cries at work the man is the villain.
We need some balance back in the work force.
Men are too nervous around woman who seem to take offence at everything and anything.
And if a woman does take offence, then the man can lose his job.
I know many men who no longer hire women to work with them as women now equal risk and it's safer to hire a man.
Having a solo meeting with a woman is a risk.
And these are men who are not harassing women or anti-women, but all know their careers can be on the line if a women gets upset at anything or heaven forbid, cries. If a woman cries at work the man is the villain.
We need some balance back in the work force.
9
That plus the fact that when a woman engages in identical behavior, it is far less likely to be viewed as harassment.
3
How many men do you know who have been sexually assaulted by a woman?
3
How a straight man sees a woman in his bedroom correlates strongly with the way he treats women outside of the bedroom. Men who think of women as sexual prey are very likely to take advantage the moment they are alone. Or misperceive her willingness to be alone with him as implying a sexual interest on her part. Truly, either way, he is confused.
The next wave in Feminism must focus on the sexual habits between men and women. Bedroom expectations too often revolve around culturally accepted expressions of dominance. It is difficult to outline where true consent in fulfilling certain fantasies with our partners can begin if we are mentally poisoned by the sexual mores of oppression that linger still.
As such, it is hardly surprising that some women may try to use this system of sexual expression to manipulate and prey on men. And so it is reasonable that someone like Mike Pence, especially at his age, and his station in life, with his beliefs, might be afraid of being alone with women. Not only does he wish to avoid the accusations from the members of his own straight club, he also isolates himself from potentially being victimized himself.
Yet, as a society, we must agree that this insistence on separation is inefficient and unproductive. We have to change our view of the opposite sex fundamentally to get it right. At the very least, so we can work more, so we can get more done, so we can make more money, and that's what we all want as Americans. Right?
The next wave in Feminism must focus on the sexual habits between men and women. Bedroom expectations too often revolve around culturally accepted expressions of dominance. It is difficult to outline where true consent in fulfilling certain fantasies with our partners can begin if we are mentally poisoned by the sexual mores of oppression that linger still.
As such, it is hardly surprising that some women may try to use this system of sexual expression to manipulate and prey on men. And so it is reasonable that someone like Mike Pence, especially at his age, and his station in life, with his beliefs, might be afraid of being alone with women. Not only does he wish to avoid the accusations from the members of his own straight club, he also isolates himself from potentially being victimized himself.
Yet, as a society, we must agree that this insistence on separation is inefficient and unproductive. We have to change our view of the opposite sex fundamentally to get it right. At the very least, so we can work more, so we can get more done, so we can make more money, and that's what we all want as Americans. Right?
7
If Mr. Mauldlin, or Pastor Mike Pence for that matter, cannot control themselves around women, they need professional help. Why should women be punished because these men have disordered sexual impulses?
18
"Walling off" women from men - especially in business or the sciences - is an atrocious Neanderthal practice that would set us all back to the time when women were handmaidens and "secretaries" that men referred to as "my girl" - as in, "...have your girl call my girl for lunch and they'll set it up." I grew up in the "Mad Men" era of advertising and I would never have advanced in my career goals or learned a damned thing if it weren't for the late-night brainstorm sessions, or last minute work on multimillion-dollar presentations, or consulting with clients (usually men) whose brands were in crisis, or there had been an explosion at a factory or whatever the issue was. Not to mention all the women scientists who have already been discriminated against in that world! Just what we need is paranoia about the sexes, in a world that is already so sexist, so full of man-splaining, and our boys and girls don't know what to think anymore.
7
I am a male professor who frequently works at home. When students want to meet with me, I will sometimes suggest my house as a venue. If it's a female student, I'm likely to say something like: "My wife and I are working at home today. Want to stop by?"
It's not about worries about temptation or unwarranted sexual-harassment allegations. I want to make sure that I am not making anyone uncomfortable and am not sending ambiguous messages.
It's not about worries about temptation or unwarranted sexual-harassment allegations. I want to make sure that I am not making anyone uncomfortable and am not sending ambiguous messages.
11
To Gownie the Male Professor, you might want to rephrase that invite. Just because you are a twosome heterosexual couple, does not eliminate anything you think you are eliminating! I suggest meeting not at your house. Make an effort to be on campus, in a more formal setting. There are benefits to my suggestion: you wouldn't have to worry about students thinking your house is a mess, or tacky decorated. Also, what your wife looks like. Does she dress-up for such visitors? And, dog allergies. Peanuts in cookies, as well as slipping on the snowy front porch steps, etcetera. Do you order cater-waiter? Or suggest pot-luck? Meet on campus, where you are supposed to!
8
I think people should be very careful as to whom they dine with of the opposite sex at work as people tend to think the worst. It could be totally innocent and probably is but people love gossip. Why give them any ammunition and ruin your reputations. I would suggest that others join the couple to protect yourself and your good name.
1
I get it, we live in a society that thinks every encounter is sexual between a man and a woman. Why? I cannot imagine that this conversation is taking place in Europe.
I'm guessing, neither Mike Pence nor his wife are comfortable with their sexuality....why else are they so fearful to eat a meal alone with someone of the opposite sex.
Puritanical behavior is alive and well....as well as fear.
I'm guessing, neither Mike Pence nor his wife are comfortable with their sexuality....why else are they so fearful to eat a meal alone with someone of the opposite sex.
Puritanical behavior is alive and well....as well as fear.
31
I am not naive. and I am shocked.
When I was interested in a man romantically, he knew it - no question. And that was true if we also had a professional relationship.
When I was not interested, that was equally clear, and I rarely had a man who didn't get it. On the very, very few occasions a man thought he would disregard my clear message - short of rape - he had no chance, and the stink I promised and the marks I intended to make cooled their ardor. I always got a glowing recommendation, undated, before I left their presence that night.
I did a good enough job to always be an asset, and conducted myself in a public personal and professional manner so as to be above reproach if questioned and built a resume and career that protected me from the occasional boor.
And I had - shall I say - a private, active, and exciting social life.
This was just as true when I was waitressing, and clerking at a book store in the 50's and 60's to put myself through school as it was later in my professional careers.
Women, you don't have to be so afraid. You have the power.
When I was interested in a man romantically, he knew it - no question. And that was true if we also had a professional relationship.
When I was not interested, that was equally clear, and I rarely had a man who didn't get it. On the very, very few occasions a man thought he would disregard my clear message - short of rape - he had no chance, and the stink I promised and the marks I intended to make cooled their ardor. I always got a glowing recommendation, undated, before I left their presence that night.
I did a good enough job to always be an asset, and conducted myself in a public personal and professional manner so as to be above reproach if questioned and built a resume and career that protected me from the occasional boor.
And I had - shall I say - a private, active, and exciting social life.
This was just as true when I was waitressing, and clerking at a book store in the 50's and 60's to put myself through school as it was later in my professional careers.
Women, you don't have to be so afraid. You have the power.
18
There is too much workload to wall-off work collaboration with colleagues of either sex. Sexual preferences are not an issue.
My spouse is always made aware if there is a possibility I will be alone with an opposite sex employee for an outside meeting and the colleague always has the choice of location when the meeting is scheduled.
Alcohol is not allowed in any work situation where two parties of opposite sexes are meeting or traveling together.
My spouse is always made aware if there is a possibility I will be alone with an opposite sex employee for an outside meeting and the colleague always has the choice of location when the meeting is scheduled.
Alcohol is not allowed in any work situation where two parties of opposite sexes are meeting or traveling together.
2
Would alcohol be allowed in a situation involving two parties of the same sex? How can you be sure that at least one of them isn't a homosexual?
2
Yes, how sad. Are we going backwards in being unable to separate sex from non-sexual relationships? Now semi-retired at 64 and having been married nearly 40 years, I've never been uncomfortable with 1-1 worker or social relationships with the opposite sex - maybe my mother being a career woman beginning 1940s helped (and thank you, mom!). It is not rocket science to keep appropriate boundaries around relationships - just common sense. Indeed, "lead us not unto temptation" but this is ridiculous - the "driving in a car", for one example, should be more like 90%+ comfortable for both sexes. Sheesh.
24
If there are two things secular nihilists will never understand, they are...
> Spirituality
> Intimacy
Brave New World, 1984, and Animal Farm are not as much about the totalitarianism that governs, but the vacuum that it fills - and the pain and emptiness it masks...
Any spouse - and their spouse - should feel that the day they met was the luckiest of their life...
Except for each day that followed...
Ascetism in defense of monogamy is no vice...
> Spirituality
> Intimacy
Brave New World, 1984, and Animal Farm are not as much about the totalitarianism that governs, but the vacuum that it fills - and the pain and emptiness it masks...
Any spouse - and their spouse - should feel that the day they met was the luckiest of their life...
Except for each day that followed...
Ascetism in defense of monogamy is no vice...
6
I'm still scratching my head, W....are you fer it or agin' it?
3
Rosa, at the risk of confusing things further - one of my all-time favorites...Written by a thoroughly liberal NYer...
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2006/03/27/alice-off-the-page
In these sophisticatedly-nuanced situations, always work back from...
"...How will the children fare...What would my children - especially any daughters - think, about any of this...
As Alice said:
"...Your children are either the center of your life or they’re not, and the rest is commentary...
That "other woman" is possibly someone's mother - and certainly someone's daughter...
Treat them as such...
See - it's all about seeing a significance to life beyond one's own life...
Starting with one's spouse - or significant other - and kids...
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2006/03/27/alice-off-the-page
In these sophisticatedly-nuanced situations, always work back from...
"...How will the children fare...What would my children - especially any daughters - think, about any of this...
As Alice said:
"...Your children are either the center of your life or they’re not, and the rest is commentary...
That "other woman" is possibly someone's mother - and certainly someone's daughter...
Treat them as such...
See - it's all about seeing a significance to life beyond one's own life...
Starting with one's spouse - or significant other - and kids...
2
Okay.
1
The Sixth Commandement or The Seventh?
The Sixth Commandment of the Ten Commandments could refer to:
"Thou shalt not kill" under the Philonic division used by Jews, Greek Orthodox and Protestants except Lutherans, or the Talmudic division of the third-century Jewish Talmud.
"Thou shalt not commit adultery" under the Augustinian division used by Roman Catholics and Lutherans.
Cindy is Catholic, which explains why she calls it the sixth commandment.
The Sixth Commandment of the Ten Commandments could refer to:
"Thou shalt not kill" under the Philonic division used by Jews, Greek Orthodox and Protestants except Lutherans, or the Talmudic division of the third-century Jewish Talmud.
"Thou shalt not commit adultery" under the Augustinian division used by Roman Catholics and Lutherans.
Cindy is Catholic, which explains why she calls it the sixth commandment.
3
Steve, I want to thank you for clearing that up. Sadly, I'm serious.
1
Amen!
1
This is ridiculous. This is an inane story that just perpetuates the puritanical and victorian complexes. There is nothing inappropriate about having a drink or dinner. or lunch, or meeting with the opposite sex unless people act inappropriate. For heaven's sake...grow up!
37
It's social contact that has no place between co-workers in any combination - male/female, male/male, gay/gay, gay/straight. And as my boss would say, if you have the time, money and energy for that, you have proven that you are overpaid and under worked.
3
I just finished a business trip with a female colleague. We drove together to the work location (shared driving of 1100 miles each way, 4 days, total, on the road), shared hotel rooms for four nights (two queens), dined and drank together at each meal. Our respective contributions to the success of the trip were the result of our capabilities, training, experience, respect, and trust for one another as PEOPLE in what is often a hazardous work environment. Out of respect for my colleague, and any unknown history she may carry, I asked her before the trip, specifically, if she was comfortable sharing hotel rooms.
We both enjoyed completing a difficult job and meeting the client's expectations. The fact that I am male and she female had absolutely zero to do with anything.
This survey show's just how far from the mainstream my company is on gender equality. Thank Goodness! In my company, capability is what matters. Gender is irrelevant. Those who attempt to make their gender relevant don't last long.
We both enjoyed completing a difficult job and meeting the client's expectations. The fact that I am male and she female had absolutely zero to do with anything.
This survey show's just how far from the mainstream my company is on gender equality. Thank Goodness! In my company, capability is what matters. Gender is irrelevant. Those who attempt to make their gender relevant don't last long.
20
I certainly don't think this is a political issue, just a common-sense issue.
As a teacher, I would NEVER shut my classroom door with only one student in the room. I rarely shut it at all, only if we are doing something loud enough to disturb other rooms.
This is not out of fear of any of my students, I have never felt personally afraid of one HS student, male or female, in 20 years.
However, the fear of false accusations is what prevents me from shutting my door. It is a litigious world and I need my job and my salary.
As a teacher, I would NEVER shut my classroom door with only one student in the room. I rarely shut it at all, only if we are doing something loud enough to disturb other rooms.
This is not out of fear of any of my students, I have never felt personally afraid of one HS student, male or female, in 20 years.
However, the fear of false accusations is what prevents me from shutting my door. It is a litigious world and I need my job and my salary.
15
"Attitudes reflect a work world shadowed by sexual harassment," writes the author. It's interesting that she doesn't mention the shadow of false accusations. What about men who are the target of false claims of sexual harassment? Men in the workplace should always have witnesses in case they are falsely accused.
15
men tend to be the stalkers. as a child, my family told me to never speak to strangers and be wary of being followed. I was followed many times and spoken to in inappropriate ways many times before I was 18. I agree that now and then girls and women do things to compromise men. I just had a conversation with my daughter and her stunning 40 something friends. they were talking how often they were hit on by college professors and employers. I am a generation apart and that happened to me all the time.
3
Then the men must keep their doors open, their hands to home and their mouth's shut. And if that doesn't reduce their fear of being "falsely accused" then they should probably find a new line of work, one that has limited to no contact with females. Bus driver? Hot dog stand? "Men should always have witnesses.." sounds like you are asking the whole office to baby-sit one paranoid man and I doubt that that is in any job's job description.
2
I am a married lesbian. Neither I nor my wife would have a problem dining with anyone of whatever sex. (We don't drink.) And neither of us would cheat on the other. Possibly this is due to both of us being of Medicare age, but on the other hand, Mr. Pence isn't a spring chicken either.
9
My God, when will we get past Puritanism. What dreary people these Christian Evangelists are. Go to a movie or a play. Dance all night. Make love under the stars. Go swimming in the nude. Have a great meal and spend your whole monthly budget on it. Take a bubble bath or sing in the shower. Get a great haircut and walk around NY on your own. Get drunk. Get happy. Feel the pain and joy of being alive. Forget those tablets, please. Even Moses enjoyed a good party once in a while. It's life for heaven's sake. If Christians believe you only have one shot.
19
From trivial minds arises puerile behavior. This is not difficult to grasp.
10
How sad. Equal but separate? What next? Who came first, the chicken or the egg? Or take a refresher course in Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz's poem "You Men"? ("Silly you men so very adept at wrongly faulting womankind, not seeing you're alone to blame for faults you plant in woman's mind", etc, etc). It sounds as though we men must take refreshing courses in gender etiquette, and follow the "golden rule".
4
To simplify this commentary on the relationship between men and women, let it be remembered that the current emphasis that men and women should be cautious in their public relationship will result in many, many, many women and men being miserable.
5
This is one more way that old, white men will try to assure that women (of any age or color) will be diminished and demeaned. They just hate women and fear women. Men show us every day that they are too emotional to handle important jobs. Look at fake forty five and now Jared Kushie Kushner & Rex Tillerson. They cannot keep their hormones in check. We need a law precluding men from anything but going to sporting events and eating pizza.
12
Sign me up!
We've come a long way, baby?
Back in 1982, I met with my manager, who was my father's age, in hotel rooms, for my reviews. He traveled from city to city to give employees performance evaluations. There were no offices to rent for the day, so it was commonplace to meet at a hotel. Same thing when interviewing for a new job, when the position was field-based and not at corporate headquarters. I had many an interview, meeting a man I had never seen or spoken to before (interview arranged by HR), IN A MARRIOTT HOTEL ROOM. There I would be, extolling my accomplishments while he perused my resume....6 feet from the bed he slept in the night before, with his luggage nearby. Can you spell B-I-Z-A-R-R-E? I am happy to report that nothing untoward ever occurred.
On the other hand, I had a few clients make me quite uncomfortable. One at least 30 years older than I was laid an unexpected kiss on me with his wife one floor away. I practically ran out of his business....and I never went back.
I have worked with men for 35 years and some of my greatest friendships are with my colleagues. I am thankful their wives don't mind our relationships and it probably helps that I am happily married and realize it would be hopeless to audition for the cover of the SI swimsuit issue.
I'm stunned by these results. My life is richer for having wonderful men in it. My Dad, my husband, my son.....and the classmates and colleagues who have helped me grow personally and professionally.
Back in 1982, I met with my manager, who was my father's age, in hotel rooms, for my reviews. He traveled from city to city to give employees performance evaluations. There were no offices to rent for the day, so it was commonplace to meet at a hotel. Same thing when interviewing for a new job, when the position was field-based and not at corporate headquarters. I had many an interview, meeting a man I had never seen or spoken to before (interview arranged by HR), IN A MARRIOTT HOTEL ROOM. There I would be, extolling my accomplishments while he perused my resume....6 feet from the bed he slept in the night before, with his luggage nearby. Can you spell B-I-Z-A-R-R-E? I am happy to report that nothing untoward ever occurred.
On the other hand, I had a few clients make me quite uncomfortable. One at least 30 years older than I was laid an unexpected kiss on me with his wife one floor away. I practically ran out of his business....and I never went back.
I have worked with men for 35 years and some of my greatest friendships are with my colleagues. I am thankful their wives don't mind our relationships and it probably helps that I am happily married and realize it would be hopeless to audition for the cover of the SI swimsuit issue.
I'm stunned by these results. My life is richer for having wonderful men in it. My Dad, my husband, my son.....and the classmates and colleagues who have helped me grow personally and professionally.
12
Nothing scarier than a man calling his wife 'mother'
Still gives me the chills. As does this whole administration.
Still gives me the chills. As does this whole administration.
39
It shows that our attitudes not that far from Saudis'.
13
You're absolutely right Vlad. Sad...as our president would say.
4
Gender victim politics is mostly to blame for this. Men don't know what is "permissible" in the company of a woman they might not know well, and women are trained to "suspect" a man's "motives" or intentions. It breeds an atmosphere of tyranny and distrust.
14
It's really not that hard to refrain from being inappropriate with women, and yet, there's always a few men, like yourself, who will whine and bawl that they can't figure it out.
If you can't refrain from sexually harassing women, then get out of the workplace so the rest of us can do our jobs.
Here, a simple guide for the simpletons out there: Don't touch women, don't compliment their appearance or talk about their bodies, don't make sexual jokes in front of them or about them, and don't ask them out on dates. SIMPLE.
If you can't refrain from sexually harassing women, then get out of the workplace so the rest of us can do our jobs.
Here, a simple guide for the simpletons out there: Don't touch women, don't compliment their appearance or talk about their bodies, don't make sexual jokes in front of them or about them, and don't ask them out on dates. SIMPLE.
2
Sorry, Mark, but that is garbage. Men do know what is permissible - you don't sexually proposition women in the workplace, you don't grope or leer at them, you don't make comments of any kind about their appearance, and you don't talk among your male co-workers about women's bodies, dating habits, etc. You don't post pornographic photos in your workplace. You recognize women as fellow humans, not "others". Women are not trained to suspect a man's motives or intentions - they learn from their personal experiences of being demeaned, groped and leered at by men. The tyranny and distrust is generated by men, not women. If you treat women with honest respect, you won't have an issue with them.
6
Who's the greater simpleton, the simpleton, or she who assumes simplicity in complex human interactions? If your recommendations (which I endorse, BTW, such as they are) were, in fact, simple to execute, this article would not have existed.
Oh please. Enough of this already. I thought it ridiculous when said by the Pences and equally so now.
8
Seems stupid. I'm a guy that has worked in an industry where women dominate. My boss was a woman. I guess I'm out of touch.
6
I take issue with the adjective "inappropriate." The correct word is "dangerous."
This only proves how Americans are still to hung up on sexuality. Having a meeting, lunch or dinner with a colleague is part of working life, not sexual harassment. If they don't know how to handle themselves with the opposite sex, when it's hazardous and when it's not, it only proves their immaturity, nothing else. How is one supposed to do performance reviews if not alone? Waste someone else's time and the firm's money by asking a 3rd individual to be a chaperone?
9
Grow up, people!
15
As a man, I am a fearful of being falsely accused of sexual harassment. I know many other men that have the same fear. In today’s work place, it just makes sense to be totally professional and never be alone with a woman in the workplace if you don’t want to lose your job
13
That's just silly. Just behave yourself and expect the same from women in the workplace. It's not that complicated.
5
you'd be suprised. very suprised.
1
Sorry, Mike Pence is a bad example. He is no standard for this determination.
We have come to analyses every little thing in our social behavior. There is no standard other than general civility shown to opposite sexes that should be the norm. Who is to determine what is appropriate. Does everything have to come down as corporate policy?
We have come to analyses every little thing in our social behavior. There is no standard other than general civility shown to opposite sexes that should be the norm. Who is to determine what is appropriate. Does everything have to come down as corporate policy?
3
I am a liberal lefty, and I totally agree that one should exercise extreme caution when alone with a member of the opposite sex. Allegations can be made, which may prove to be unfounded; by the time the process has run its course, careers and reputations and marriages and families can be destroyed. Hasidic Jews practice segregation of men and women in many aspects of their lives, and I don't read any criticism of them.
8
I am a Democrat and liberal too...and I totally agree with your comment. I am saddened that a number of readers don't seem to agree
4
Actually sexual abuse has been shown to be a problem in the Hasidic community as elsewhere. The difference-- the tight knit hasidic community covered it up.
6
Sorry, Mariam, but Genital Apartheid doesn't work here OR in Israel OR Saudi Arabia. There: you've read a criticism and if this article was on Hasidic Jews then there would probably be lots more. Sorry, but this is the USA and it's 2017, and I don't doubt that there are MANY Hasidic women who are illegally denied employment, education and fair wages in their lives. They NEVER make it to the "office".
4
This article may overthink the subject matter. In most of the professional/social scenarios cited, women do not have a worry of 'sexual harassment' top of mind. (If a boss or coworker has a reputation for that kind of behavior, of course you're not going to meet with them in a secluded area.)
In my experience, these meetings are held in highly visible locations -- glassed-in conference rooms/offices. What men and women alike are concerned about -- and the article alludes to this -- is any APPEARANCE of impropriety. Rumor mills in most workplaces need little encouragement to kick into high gear. Enough people are smeared for purely innocent conduct, and attempting to refute such rumors only makes matters worse. So I don't know that the subject requires a major social experiment...smart people just know well enough not to give an excuse for poor behavior -- whether real or imagined.
In my experience, these meetings are held in highly visible locations -- glassed-in conference rooms/offices. What men and women alike are concerned about -- and the article alludes to this -- is any APPEARANCE of impropriety. Rumor mills in most workplaces need little encouragement to kick into high gear. Enough people are smeared for purely innocent conduct, and attempting to refute such rumors only makes matters worse. So I don't know that the subject requires a major social experiment...smart people just know well enough not to give an excuse for poor behavior -- whether real or imagined.
6
Men cannot be too careful today. Any accusation, no matter how exaggerated or unjust can cost you your job and possibly your career. This is true perhaps especially for older men like myself working in offices with young women. Many of them think all older men are creepy mashers. I do not go into our office kitchen, which is a small space, if a lady is in there, I wait until they leave. I don't sit next to the younger women at meetings if I can help it and I have learned not even to seem friendly because some assume this is creepy old man behavior. I keep my distance both physically and socially so everything is crystal clear.
18
Sad, but your conduct is absolutely necessary in today's workplace. Better safe than sorry.
7
My observation, as well. Rampant at universities.
This story isn't about religion, race, or creed. It is about control and insecurity which lies within both men and women equally. As sad as that is in the year 2017.
I read this article and thought two things almost instantly; it was written by a conservative white woman at the behest of someone else to further a strange agenda, and that I had stepped back in time to the 1940's.
Some Commentator's would do best to remember before the Middle East; we (Americans) used to treat women with insurmountable disrespect. Particularly in the workplace.
While I can't say whether or not the survey's or the research was diverse enough to fulfill a journalistic ethic, I can say that it says what they wanted us to read. In response I say: please go back to journalism school and evaluate your standards if you are going to post anything with The New York Times.
If Mister Pence would take into consideration that: should he feel overly aroused by the mere presence of a woman - so much so that he couldn't contain his professionalism - the secret service is right there to lend him a hand. I am fairly confident in saying He has no reason to worry about a scandal.
PS. CCM, you can do better than this: Tagging onto someone else's headline is bad form.
I read this article and thought two things almost instantly; it was written by a conservative white woman at the behest of someone else to further a strange agenda, and that I had stepped back in time to the 1940's.
Some Commentator's would do best to remember before the Middle East; we (Americans) used to treat women with insurmountable disrespect. Particularly in the workplace.
While I can't say whether or not the survey's or the research was diverse enough to fulfill a journalistic ethic, I can say that it says what they wanted us to read. In response I say: please go back to journalism school and evaluate your standards if you are going to post anything with The New York Times.
If Mister Pence would take into consideration that: should he feel overly aroused by the mere presence of a woman - so much so that he couldn't contain his professionalism - the secret service is right there to lend him a hand. I am fairly confident in saying He has no reason to worry about a scandal.
PS. CCM, you can do better than this: Tagging onto someone else's headline is bad form.
3
Pence a.k.a Snake Eyes is to be feared because of his radical positions and beliefs in a secular Democracy. However, people do have to be cautious about being alone with a member of the opposite Sex. Male Doctors must have a female nurse or tech present when examining a woman. Men however, are not offered the same courtesy when being examined by a Female Doctor. In fact at MGH in Boston it is not unusual for a female doctor to have a female medical student in the room when examining a male patient. We have a double standard system.
5
I have never heard such poppycock in my life !!! Move to Europe or somewhere, but get a life!
America is too puritanical and backwards in this respect. It probably explains why people like Trump, who shouldn't be left alone with a woman, get elected !
America is too puritanical and backwards in this respect. It probably explains why people like Trump, who shouldn't be left alone with a woman, get elected !
8
I don't know about the situation in Switzerland. But I have spent much of my adult life in France and sexual harassment of women, at work, in public transport, on the streets, is epidemic.
6
Sexual harassment is rife in Australia too. This is the lead in one of Brisbane's newspapers today: "A BRISBANE TV journalist has called out a fan from the Jeff Horn vs. Manny Pacquiao fight for his vulgar treatment of her and her friends during the fight at Suncorp Stadium."
1
How typical of the Times that this story criticizes men for not having a dinner meeting with women when the poll results IN. THE. STORY. ITSELF. Show that it is women more than men who reject those meetings as inappropriate.
And women thinking it is not appropriate to have a lunch meeting? How self-destructive can you get?!
And women thinking it is not appropriate to have a lunch meeting? How self-destructive can you get?!
10
It would be very useful and educational if the writers of this article would compare American attitudes regarding sex with those of other "westernized" Countries such as Europe and Australia, and Israel.
My impression is that many Americans are still very much in the "Puritan" age emotionally and mentally.
My impression is that many Americans are still very much in the "Puritan" age emotionally and mentally.
8
I can see surveys like these being used by Saudi Arabia, and other rigid societies, to continue gender segregation, or say, "Men will misbehave...so lets keep women at home: away from college and away from work". Be careful what you study selectively, and how it might be used.
My wife, soon to be ex, is right. She felt too many organizations dealing with issues keep using studies to ask for more funds, hire more people and pay for more do travels and conferences...while solving very little.
This study will be used for more studies ; to ask for more funds for some feminist program to improve gender relationships in work place in the 21st century and to do some art or theater or movie on this issue.
Any Solution "Not So Much".
I have worked as an engineer for nearly forty years, and for fifteen of those years in Silicon Valley. There were problems...but minor if you asked me and my female colleagues. I had female bosses and colleagues in almost all projects. And we did fine.
Something changed in these work environments, or by exaggerating everything men and women ended up becoming awkward and frightened of each other. That's is not good!
My wife, soon to be ex, is right. She felt too many organizations dealing with issues keep using studies to ask for more funds, hire more people and pay for more do travels and conferences...while solving very little.
This study will be used for more studies ; to ask for more funds for some feminist program to improve gender relationships in work place in the 21st century and to do some art or theater or movie on this issue.
Any Solution "Not So Much".
I have worked as an engineer for nearly forty years, and for fifteen of those years in Silicon Valley. There were problems...but minor if you asked me and my female colleagues. I had female bosses and colleagues in almost all projects. And we did fine.
Something changed in these work environments, or by exaggerating everything men and women ended up becoming awkward and frightened of each other. That's is not good!
2
I think men and women worked fairly well together through the nineties. But then PC took over, HR held seminars that told us that everything was sexual, and then no one could feel comfortable saying anything. Then, the PC group convinced us women that we were treated badly and that men meant one thing when we heard another and things really started to fall apart.
We've going backwards, and continue to. Seems the more information we have through countless 'fake' media outlets on the Internet and Social Media, the more we devolve and isolate. Very sad. Count me out!
We've going backwards, and continue to. Seems the more information we have through countless 'fake' media outlets on the Internet and Social Media, the more we devolve and isolate. Very sad. Count me out!
8
agreed. thank you mary.
1
If avoiding people of the opposite sex is OK, then we have to agree that sex discrimination is perfectly OK and fair.
I don't believe that. I believe this sub-adult form of pre-victimhood is Victorian in origin and silly upon analysis. If you are a victim, say so, name the criminal and let the issue be dealt with. Otherwise, learn to be an adult. Deal with both women and men as adults - it is required to be considered one yourself.
The epicenter of this "discourse" that spawned this mess is upper tier colleges and universities. In college, there was enormous discussion of sexual hostility but in reality -- let's talk reality -- rather than political orthodoxy -- many women were hoping for more attention, not less, than they were getting. Goodness! The Victorian sensibility wouldn't allow us to say that. We are told all kinds of lies about this on both sides -- what fertile ground for creativity and myth.
I don't believe that. I believe this sub-adult form of pre-victimhood is Victorian in origin and silly upon analysis. If you are a victim, say so, name the criminal and let the issue be dealt with. Otherwise, learn to be an adult. Deal with both women and men as adults - it is required to be considered one yourself.
The epicenter of this "discourse" that spawned this mess is upper tier colleges and universities. In college, there was enormous discussion of sexual hostility but in reality -- let's talk reality -- rather than political orthodoxy -- many women were hoping for more attention, not less, than they were getting. Goodness! The Victorian sensibility wouldn't allow us to say that. We are told all kinds of lies about this on both sides -- what fertile ground for creativity and myth.
8
I’m a retired professor of cultural history. For most of my career I taught at an urban university with a diverse, working class student body, many of whom were immigrants. For about ten years I taught a course on culture and gender relations. Among other things, we studied the classical Hindu hierarchical social order and how intimate relations between men and women of different castes was taboo. It violate the eternal cosmic order. Later, I lectured on sexual harassment law and pointed out that it set up a system whereby romantic relations between people on the same power level were okay, but relations between people where there was power differential were forbidden. Thus, in the name of equality we set up a system not all that different from the Indian one. At the end of the lecture I told them this policy was strictly enforced where I taught and for that reason professors were reluctant to have any romantic involvement with students. What was surprising to me was the reaction of the class (mostly young women). It was one of righteous indignation. It was clear that many wanted to go out with some of the younger male professors and now they understood why there designs on these men were coming to naught.
It’s good to be with young people. Sometimes I miss teaching.
It’s good to be with young people. Sometimes I miss teaching.
5
I am a senoir citizen straight married guy, and I would be concerned about having a meal or a drink alone with Mike Pence.
68
Joe - As a former city kid (HP - what about it !) I love your posts.
Don't ever take Pence to Doyles in JP or Tom English in HP
(If you did he would likely ask for a diet pepsi (and be bounced out on his rear) )
.
I work for a woman CIO and a woman CEO, and alongside women and men. I have no problem treating everyone with respect and a goal of collaborations in achieving a common goal. I do not visualize the women I work with and for as sexual objects and if invited to lunch or dinner would act as an adult, and expect the other party to do the same.
12
While I am not a Pence fan, I think he is right on this one. How many male politicians have had affairs that have ruined their personal and political lives? More than a few. Admitting to the possibility of his own weakness, and avoiding putting himself in a situation that could jeopardize his marriage and career is not puritanical but displaying a realistic assessment of his situation.
4
So punish women because some men cannot control themselves?
1
Since Ms. Cain-Miller does not seem to have written any gender related-articles that fail to repeatedly portray women as victims, she should not be taken seriously.
8
Pence is such a great Christian. Did he ever learn that Jesus spoke alone to a divorced Samaritan woman at the well? Looks like, he has to re-learn the lessons of Christianity. Or, is it just plain Bigotry to make women into objects that can only make him din.
If he ever becomes President, God Forbid, it looks like there will be no women as his advisors.
If he ever becomes President, God Forbid, it looks like there will be no women as his advisors.
14
You may not have noticed that Mr Pence is not himself Jesus Christ. Hence your argument fails.
1
I am a professor who teaches undergraduates and I am male though long of tooth. It is explicit university policy that I am supposed to keep my office door open when I am alone with a female undergraduate (Is there some gender discrimination here?) . On the other hand when discussing things like low grades I am supposed to maintain privacy. How can I do this when three or four students might want to speak to me at once. I do manage but it is always on my mind.
4
As someone who works with children individually, I make sure to be as transparent as possible. Because my work with them requires quiet and few distractions, it's not always possible for me to keep my office door fully open. Sometimes keeping it ajar will work. Ideally I'll work in a room with a window in the door. The point of these modest accommodations is to give the clear impression that I am at all times behaving in a manner that I wouldn't mind anyone -- a parent, a colleague, my boss -- seeing. I hope it also puts the children at ease. I do this for my own protection. I would hate to be falsely accused and I therefore try to set things up in such a way to minimize that possibility.
1
White males presenting themselves as victims.
All because they are expected to act like adults.
You'd think we'd be use to it by now.
All because they are expected to act like adults.
You'd think we'd be use to it by now.
19
Did we read the same article?
3
Physical attraction to a member of the opposite gender causes anxiety -- and, in the workplace, hesitation to "get too close" (to put it another way, compulsion to "maintain a distance") -- in the best of people, including mature adults.
This can be frustrating; and yet, it's as human as the thing that produces the frustration: emotion.
This can be frustrating; and yet, it's as human as the thing that produces the frustration: emotion.
5
This being the NYT, I’m not surprised to see that the assumption is made that all those finding these activities “inappropriate” do so on the basis of conservative, moral principles. But, while I’m sure that accounts for some of these responses, I am also sure some people find these activities “inappropriate” because of the fear of being falsely accused of sexual harassment—such is the atmosphere America’s “progressives” have created in our workplaces.
And what is the basis for the assumption that this phenomenon only adversely affects females? Given that nearly half the work force is female and that many hold positions of power, to the extent that this belief system negatively affects career prospects, that would also be the case with respect to men. This paper’s opposite assumption reminds me of that old joke regarding the New York Times’ headline, should it learn the end was coming soon: “WORLD TO END TOMORROW! WOMEN AND MINORITIES HIT HARDEST!”
And what is the basis for the assumption that this phenomenon only adversely affects females? Given that nearly half the work force is female and that many hold positions of power, to the extent that this belief system negatively affects career prospects, that would also be the case with respect to men. This paper’s opposite assumption reminds me of that old joke regarding the New York Times’ headline, should it learn the end was coming soon: “WORLD TO END TOMORROW! WOMEN AND MINORITIES HIT HARDEST!”
6
With society the way it is now, it is wise to take extra precautions.
Just take a good look at the false accusations by liberals towards conservatives and vice versa. I would hate to be alone in the same room with these angry people.
Afterall, if liberals are quick to level false accusations about being racists, ignorant, stupid, uneducated and incapable of critical thinking solely based on who they voted for... then why would any sane person want to be alone with that kind of person.
Those types of people wouldn't hesitate to make other false accusations!
Just take a good look at the false accusations by liberals towards conservatives and vice versa. I would hate to be alone in the same room with these angry people.
Afterall, if liberals are quick to level false accusations about being racists, ignorant, stupid, uneducated and incapable of critical thinking solely based on who they voted for... then why would any sane person want to be alone with that kind of person.
Those types of people wouldn't hesitate to make other false accusations!
3
Since Ms. Cain-Miller does not seem to have written any gender related articles that repeatedly portray women as victims, she should not be taken seriously.
2
Most religious people beyond a certain age were taught that their sex and sexuality was a sinful, nasty thing to be avoided, unless sanctioned by the religious edicts. It was implied in every way that females were the embodiment of sexuality. Teaching this to a young child is the source of perversion and ill health. When will this medieval thing we call religion end?
13
Is Pence wanting to imply that he is manly, with a highly charged physical drive towards women? Don't forget all his anti-gay efforts, especially the one about conversion therapy. The over-compensation always seems to be part of the profile of politicians who are in the closet.
11
Your comment is a common slander against gays: that it is closeted gay men who are really behind all the anti-gay persecution.
2
Hahaha!
My initial reaction was, Who are you people? Looking at the breakdown that only 18% of participants with a post grad degree feel this why explained much since I haven't had this experience in my profession. It's still hard to make it to the top as a woman lawyer and gender inequality plays a role but I'm thankful that the vast majority of my clients and colleagues are not so unenlightened.
15
This survey, I'm sorry to say, seems to reinforce the position of many Muslims and others--with whom I have always disagreed on this matter--who wish women to be covered in order to dampen men's built-in sexual "temptation." According to the survey, it seems both women and men in the (highly secularized) U.S. think both men AND women live with an almost uncontrollable state of sexual temptation. Depressing.
On the other hand, in my 50 years of working life, I have never once even thought of not having a professional lunch, dinner, or drive with another person because of the possibility of sexual temptation. Nor has it ever occurred to me to have suspicions about colleagues who do take part in such activities. I guess this only shows how far out of the mainstream I really am. Also depressing.
But the question remains: is this due to "nature" or "nurture"? Is this biological (and therefore largely immutable), or is this a cultural pattern (that can evolve)?
On the other hand, in my 50 years of working life, I have never once even thought of not having a professional lunch, dinner, or drive with another person because of the possibility of sexual temptation. Nor has it ever occurred to me to have suspicions about colleagues who do take part in such activities. I guess this only shows how far out of the mainstream I really am. Also depressing.
But the question remains: is this due to "nature" or "nurture"? Is this biological (and therefore largely immutable), or is this a cultural pattern (that can evolve)?
11
Every week I try to spend several intense hours in very close proximity to a woman who is not my wife of over four decades and far less than half my wife's age.
This young woman is my flight instructor. I see her as a professional not as a sexual object.
What's so difficult about treating people as equals and not sexual objects?
This young woman is my flight instructor. I see her as a professional not as a sexual object.
What's so difficult about treating people as equals and not sexual objects?
22
What if the president was a woman? Pence wouldn't eat alone with her? Seriously, understand erring on the side of caution given how misunderstandings can honestly happen. Plus there are real life predators to be careful about - probably just mutually wise to exercise good judgment. On the other hand if it is in a public space not sure what the problem is. Still why is sex the foremost issue on people's mind?
3
It's quite simple for me - people just need to grow up.
14
They will only do that by putting their religion away and joining the human race.
7
Work related meetings - work....related, driven meetings - evening, lunch, breakfast, doesn't matter, if it is work related than I see all participants, whether it is one, and a woman, or twenty and they are all genders including trans. Same when you are on travel and you have to lift a heavy bag into the airplane overhead, and drag a suitcase out of trunk. You packed it, you are an adult....you lift it; you do the work; you will be equal, and if you are not....well, you still don't have to be insulted or abuse, but.....jeez, louise, get a life. Much as you might want to, duty first; then you can come in the back door, if you are invited.
1
Misinformation....Mike Pence doesn't feel comfortable drinking alone with a women. I think that the premise of this article is to articulate a false one. Good work, if you can get it? He just happens to be a religious man who want to speak about these thing openly. It doesn't mean we have to agree with these ideas. I am completely confused by the upshot here. If you are not deeply religious in that way, it doesn't mean that a Vice President has to be exactly the same way that you thing about things. Get over the election, OK?
7
Get over the election and support a groping and vulgar president.
Enjoy.
Enjoy.
5
does it say that in my letter? no...this kind of mind set is keeping the topic OFF the important issues at hand...please, try to look over your own emotional anger
2
A great deal of Americans are absolute prudes. Is it their upbringing, their schools, religion, what are they afraid off when sitting face to face with somone from the other sex over dinner or in a meeting?
9
Is that a rhetorical question?
Solo interactions with women can be very dangerous for men.
Such interactions, unless recorded, can result in vastly different accounts of what was said and what was meant. If this type of ambiguous encounter, society has increasingly determined that women are presumed victims.
There is little upside to a man meeting solo with a woman, only the downside of a destroyed reputation and lost career.
Mike Pence is probably less concerned about biblical admonitions, than the likelihood that the liberals/media will someday misconstrue an innocent meeting into a sinister one. Since character destruction is an essential tool in modern politics, Mike Pence is truly a wise man.
Such interactions, unless recorded, can result in vastly different accounts of what was said and what was meant. If this type of ambiguous encounter, society has increasingly determined that women are presumed victims.
There is little upside to a man meeting solo with a woman, only the downside of a destroyed reputation and lost career.
Mike Pence is probably less concerned about biblical admonitions, than the likelihood that the liberals/media will someday misconstrue an innocent meeting into a sinister one. Since character destruction is an essential tool in modern politics, Mike Pence is truly a wise man.
10
Yes, and his wisdom was trying to force women to bury their miscarriages. Which in itself is already a devastating experience.
You are not going to tell me that this is an enlightened attitude.
You are not going to tell me that this is an enlightened attitude.
4
It's a sorry state. Maybe everyone should be forced to wear body cams where the videos self destruct a week later after being scanned by an AI algo to make sure nothing in-appropriate happened - though you then get into who decides how the algo works, does it really destroy the content, and could it be photo-shopped to manipulate the appearance.
4
I want to see the demographics of the people interviewed! These results seem to be from the Cave Man age...neanderthals!
This CANNOT be representative of the current US population/demographics. This seems to be from 1950s.
PLEASE LET US SEE BEHIND THE CURTAINS!
This CANNOT be representative of the current US population/demographics. This seems to be from 1950s.
PLEASE LET US SEE BEHIND THE CURTAINS!
16
I read this as saying that you can't have a friend of the opposite sex, especially at work. I've had female friends who I tried cases with, with whom I shared child rearing responsibilities, who could drink me under the table, and who always beat me in track workouts. I don't see the problem. Friends are different from lovers. If you don't get that, you're missing the boat. Someone is making you all too fearful, and you've lost your common sense.
17
When the story about Pence first came out, I "cut him some slack" and thought that maybe he cheated on his wife and to forgive him they both agreed that he wouldn't be with another woman, even out for a "business" dinner. That would be between he and his wife, not for public consumption.
2
It's definitely dumb and immature, but what do you expect? For the men, I mean. There are plenty of cases of men being falsely accused of sexual harassment or rape, you just never hear about them because they're rarely reported by the major news outlets. There isn't a religious bone in my body, and I've been in a solid relationship with the same woman for years, but even I would never ask a woman out for a friendly lunch or any other harmless meeting. It's just not worth the risk!
6
Maybe it's because false accusations are so rare that when they happen, they make news. Women are far more at risk than men.
1
Not THAT rare. And when they do happen, they're devastating. I'm not going to play the who's-treated-worse game aka the Oppression Olympics, but a woman has a lot more chances to recover from sexual harassment than a man does from a false accusation. A false accusation can literally ruin a man's career for years, if not decades. If it's a rape accusation, it can land them in jail! This isn't some silly exaggeration promoted by anti-feminist alt-right morons, it's a fact.
2
so true. Powerful men feel comfortable talking to other powerful men, where they can go at it "man to man." This is the subtle bias that can hold women back -- as well as minorities in the work place.
4
I've been a man for some 65 years now and happily married for more than 35 of those years. I guess I must be unusual, because most of the closest and most cherished friendships I've had in my life have been with women, both on on the job and off. What can I say? I just prefer their company to that of men. And my wife is my dearest friend of all. At the risk of belaboring the patently obvious, these strange and sad men who are apparently terrified of having one-on-one contacts with women need to engage in some serious self-analysis. Examine your own behaviours and attitudes to determine if they contain elements that might somehow be construed as offensive to women. Approach women with as much honesty, sincerity and respect as you would your male colleagues and friends. If you're confused and nervous about how to behave with these strange creatures you so fear and yet are so fortunate as to get to know one personally, try talking with her about male behaviours and whether yours need improvement. Contrary to what you may believe, most of them won't bite you. You might even find yourself with a new friend or two.
If, after all this, you can't govern yourself in one-on-one encounters, if you are seized by irrepressible impulses to act like a boor, if you still think of women as somehow inferior to men--- there's probably no hope for you. You should probably head to Afghanistan and join your fellow gynophobes in the Taliban, because you and they think along similar lines.
If, after all this, you can't govern yourself in one-on-one encounters, if you are seized by irrepressible impulses to act like a boor, if you still think of women as somehow inferior to men--- there's probably no hope for you. You should probably head to Afghanistan and join your fellow gynophobes in the Taliban, because you and they think along similar lines.
19
I love your comment. My sense from reading the many defensive comments here is there are a lot of people who don't know how to behave and are afraid of their own impulses. Men who treat women with respect and as work colleagues, rather than as sexual or romantic objects, don't project the same anger and anxiety. I suspect some of these men come across as inappropriate or worse and are mystified as to what they're doing to give that impression. Beneath their fear is animosity. How dare you tell them they can't flirt or ogle or demean! Poor things, unable to put women in their place. They miss out on the kind of rich relationships you have with women.
2
Reminds me of Sharia law when I was living in a Muslim-majority country. It never occurred to me that people back here in America felt the same way.
Just when I think we're finally in the 21st century, an article like this comes along to dash my hopes.
Who are all these insecure, frightened people?
Just when I think we're finally in the 21st century, an article like this comes along to dash my hopes.
Who are all these insecure, frightened people?
13
Women still drive cars here???
Well, that's gonna change as soon as Trump gets bumped and His Holiness Pastor Pence takes over.
Well, that's gonna change as soon as Trump gets bumped and His Holiness Pastor Pence takes over.
11
And Pence wouldn't want a woman driving a car if he's in it. No, not, not a manly thing to do. Besides, men are just safer drivers, right? New law being drafted now by Pence.
3
I'm never shy about holding guys accountable for male stupidities, but modern young women have made a mess of this issue.
All of human nature can be termed harassment of one kind or another if you want to dissect and label every single interaction we have while we*re still breathing.
If you don't have the guts to stand up for yourself, to define the boundaries you regard as appropriate for yourself, don't make life miserable for the rest of us because of it.
Don't women engage in salacious office banter any more? Don't they have the ability to differentiate a certain level of typical male crudity from criminal behavior?
I never had any sort of power in any job I ever held, and I needed every single paycheck I ever got. But I never let anyone put a hand on me if I didn't want it there, and I kept my repartee as sharp as it needed to be, to make clear I gave as good or more than anyone might try to lavish on me, and I didn't keep an Offend-O-Meter always ticking away in every conceivable situation.
Grow up, girls. How would you ever have survived real challenges? Like, in wars and famines?
All of human nature can be termed harassment of one kind or another if you want to dissect and label every single interaction we have while we*re still breathing.
If you don't have the guts to stand up for yourself, to define the boundaries you regard as appropriate for yourself, don't make life miserable for the rest of us because of it.
Don't women engage in salacious office banter any more? Don't they have the ability to differentiate a certain level of typical male crudity from criminal behavior?
I never had any sort of power in any job I ever held, and I needed every single paycheck I ever got. But I never let anyone put a hand on me if I didn't want it there, and I kept my repartee as sharp as it needed to be, to make clear I gave as good or more than anyone might try to lavish on me, and I didn't keep an Offend-O-Meter always ticking away in every conceivable situation.
Grow up, girls. How would you ever have survived real challenges? Like, in wars and famines?
5
While I admire your spunk, as my mother would say, many women would find it exhausting, for good reason, to have to banter with poorly-socialized men to keep them at bay. Having to prove yourself every day is already a challenge, but add to that having to deflect the various indignities and downright threats to one's job . . . Salacious office banter? Not everyone is comfortable with that or equipped to do that. If it's part of the job description so be it, but if it's not, then blaming others for not engaging in it is just wrong. Sometimes humor works, and sometimes things are simply beyond humor.
2
It*s not spunk, but practicality. Life is full of challenges, from beginning to end. Learning how to navigate and negotiate and, when necessary, fight, is essential for success. Learning to stand up to a teacher against an unfair grade in HS. Learning to tell people--nicely at first, and not so nicely, if it becomes necessary--to keep their hands to themselves. Learning to request a refund for a defective product. Learning to ask questions of doctors even if they indicate they think they don't need to be questioned.
It*s really not about sex at all.
And--that salacious banter? It*s not in response to what the guys say. Women have lustful minds too. The point is to know where it*s permissible to make certain kinds of jokes and remarks--in trusted company--and when it crosses the line towards hurting someone else.
It*s really not about sex at all.
And--that salacious banter? It*s not in response to what the guys say. Women have lustful minds too. The point is to know where it*s permissible to make certain kinds of jokes and remarks--in trusted company--and when it crosses the line towards hurting someone else.
2
"If they were above 65, Republican or very religious, respondents were slightly more likely to say people should take extra precaution around members of the opposite sex at work."
Old-fashioned curmudgeons who... But wait:
"Kathleen Raven, a [33 year-old] science writer at Yale, considers herself to be progressive in many ways. But she does not have closed-door or out-of-office meetings alone with men, because she was previously sexually harassed."
Religious conservatives in accord with a young priestess at the Yale temple of non-sectarianism?
Old-fashioned curmudgeons who... But wait:
"Kathleen Raven, a [33 year-old] science writer at Yale, considers herself to be progressive in many ways. But she does not have closed-door or out-of-office meetings alone with men, because she was previously sexually harassed."
Religious conservatives in accord with a young priestess at the Yale temple of non-sectarianism?
1
Trust Times readers and commenters to turn a serious article into an opportunity to call people names. Did these allegedly intelligent readers not notice that the people in the article were discussing how they try to control their own behavior? Sounds like the very epitome of being grown up.
1
Hang on, JMR: Surely you noticed that more than a few of the "control" comments are from men who wish women had never had to go out to work in THEIR office. They make it sound like just having the Skirt in the office is putting them under unbearable stress, so all-consuming that they really are in danger of snapping and... and... and...oh, who knows what in Pence could happen?!?
And that kind of response always reminds me of the man who STOPS beating his wife the moment the cops show up. Control? He's got it - or he would be UNABLE to stop heaving her around even when the cops DID show up.
Any man that goes into that "Oh, I must CONTROL MYSELF!" panic is a man whose thought processes I don't want to even consider. Not my problem. If he can't get a grip, then he should go work somewhere else. Drive a bus. Open a hot dog stand. Anything except be in an office where other men and women have to put up with his imaginary demons. It is a WORK office. It is not the problem of fellow workers to cure or even have a clue about. It is not in the job description and I don't doubt that the offices that these men work in are VERY aware that these men despise all of them. Yes, even the men.
And that kind of response always reminds me of the man who STOPS beating his wife the moment the cops show up. Control? He's got it - or he would be UNABLE to stop heaving her around even when the cops DID show up.
Any man that goes into that "Oh, I must CONTROL MYSELF!" panic is a man whose thought processes I don't want to even consider. Not my problem. If he can't get a grip, then he should go work somewhere else. Drive a bus. Open a hot dog stand. Anything except be in an office where other men and women have to put up with his imaginary demons. It is a WORK office. It is not the problem of fellow workers to cure or even have a clue about. It is not in the job description and I don't doubt that the offices that these men work in are VERY aware that these men despise all of them. Yes, even the men.
1
You are quick to say that many woman avoid men at work out of fear of sexual harassment. But plenty of men avoid women out fear of being unfairly accused of sexual harassment. I have no problem with lunch with a woman of equal or greater rank, but am very reluctant to do the same with a women who reports to me. In those circumstances, I invite a third. To frame this as some sort of a dysfunctional vestige of Puritanism or cultural taboos is engaging in willful avoidance. Our workplace anti-harassment laws and training cannot neutralize sexual attraction; to the contrary, they assume and criminalize it. For good reason, as almost any episode of Mad Men illustrates so well. Laws both reflect and shape moral and ethical norms. Rather than risking sexual harassment or an accusation of it, employees are simply retreating back to quasi-Victorian norms. Fascinating, but not a surprise.
10
i'm not clear on whether i'm the "opposite sex" to mike pence (i certainly hope so) but i'd definitely be wary of being alone with him in any capacity...
15
Priceless....thank you.
I am not wary of being alone with a female, married or not.
I also know that unlike our current President, I do not fantasize about grabbing them by their genitals.
I also know that unlike our current President, I do not fantasize about grabbing them by their genitals.
11
Who are all these people? Why hasn't anyone grown up?
19
A thick band of Puritanism still runs a river through society here. It is such an emotionally immature and fearful approach to life.
15
When false accusations of sexual harassment can be made of course men are cautious. Not only in being alone, but in giving simple complements that in years past would have been appreciated. Now some men take advantage of their position so females should also be careful.
2
What a strange world you live in. When we have a President who publicly shares the many ways that he DOES harass women, and when women know how often we are harassed (at work, in public spaces, online, as TV anchors, etc.), we cannot help but wonder from when this paranoia about "false accusations of sexual harassment"! And please, we are women, not "females".
3
vulcanalex - why do you assume that "simple complements [sic]" would have been appreciated in years past? Just because a woman deflects or does not report "simple compliments" does not mean she appreciates them. Most likely she would not appreciate comments about her appearance, since they just remind her that men are more interested in her physical appearance than her work, and a pattern of harassment often starts with such comments.
4
What is it with America? Really trying to mimick Saudi Arabia or rural Afghanistan?
17
Mike Pence should absolutely be afraid of being alone with most of the women I know. We don't like him.
37
Comparing US to Europe or other cultures is foolish.
In most of Europe no one cares who you sleep with including probably your own spouse. Just look at the previous French President.
In Islamic culture you can have multiple wives and mistresses.
Even in the US, this only matters to men who have something to lose.
It could be their jobs or their savings.
In most of Europe no one cares who you sleep with including probably your own spouse. Just look at the previous French President.
In Islamic culture you can have multiple wives and mistresses.
Even in the US, this only matters to men who have something to lose.
It could be their jobs or their savings.
1
"When he needs to meet with women at work or his church, he makes sure doors are left open and another person is present."
Since a woman's word that she's been harassed (or sexually abused) is almost always taken seriously, it's potentially dangerous for a man to be alone with a woman. In most cases, no objective evidence is necessary to back up her claims. In the worst situations, a woman is potentially dangerous because the police usually believe her claims and, in many cases, will send a SWAT team in response to her call for help. Domestic disputes involving a man and a woman are the most common reason SWAT teams are dispatched.
Since a woman's word that she's been harassed (or sexually abused) is almost always taken seriously, it's potentially dangerous for a man to be alone with a woman. In most cases, no objective evidence is necessary to back up her claims. In the worst situations, a woman is potentially dangerous because the police usually believe her claims and, in many cases, will send a SWAT team in response to her call for help. Domestic disputes involving a man and a woman are the most common reason SWAT teams are dispatched.
8
And yet when rape occurs, blame the victim rises to the surface faster than flood waters even with much evidence that is solid. Clearly no consistency in America,we seem to be floundering for a definition.
2
Workerbee - you have to be kidding! A woman's word that she has been harassed or sexually abused is almost NEVER taken seriously! I've been on this planet for over six decades now, and every time I have spoken up about being harassed or assaulted, I have been laughed at or worse. When I reported a rape to the police, they falsified my report to state that I did not want the rapist prosecuted, failed to investigate at all, and when the rapist retaliated by repeatedly damaging my property and bullying me, they sided with him, defamed me, and looked for a way to charge ME with some crime.
The way I was treated is not unusual. You need to educate yourself.
The way I was treated is not unusual. You need to educate yourself.
8
Since men frequently harass, assault, and rape women, it's potentially dangerous for a woman to be alone with a man.
And yet, we're forced to deal with you all on a daily basis.
You know very well that it is not true that "no objective evidence is necessary to back up her claims." Have you watched the multiple high-profile trials recently where men have literally been caught raping women or admitted to raping women and STILL were not punished?
Familiarize yourself with the legal standard for succeeding (or even maintaining past the dismissal stage) a claim for sexual harassment in a civil court. You'll find very quickly that quite a lot of "objective evidence" is required to back up a woman's claim.
But no, better to paint yourself as a victim. Poor workerbee.
And yet, we're forced to deal with you all on a daily basis.
You know very well that it is not true that "no objective evidence is necessary to back up her claims." Have you watched the multiple high-profile trials recently where men have literally been caught raping women or admitted to raping women and STILL were not punished?
Familiarize yourself with the legal standard for succeeding (or even maintaining past the dismissal stage) a claim for sexual harassment in a civil court. You'll find very quickly that quite a lot of "objective evidence" is required to back up a woman's claim.
But no, better to paint yourself as a victim. Poor workerbee.
1
This is a reprehensible article. It does not reflect my understanding of the world. I don't believe whats written here is close to the truth. I've circulated with women who were married, went on trips with them. Nothing untoward happened. I'm a former reporter too. The story is an angle that flows from a Mike Pence remark. Pence-Trump essentially lost the popular vote. Trump has been unable to generate support for any programs. The Times is trolling the trolls. I know hundreds of people not represented in this survey. I don't believe it. My experience is otherwise. It is sad that the Times pursued this bogus social science. It hurt to read it and I don't believe it.
6
No support for the president's agenda??? Surely you noted a supreme court appointment that his supporters think justify his election even if nothing else positive happens. And plenty positive is happening, perhaps not through congress but if we eliminate a lot of waste and the people associated with it that will be difficult to bring back quickly.
2
Maybe men should staple our eyelids wide-open so there'll never be any sort of winking. That alone could bring a multi-national corporation down to its knees. It's just not worth it.
4
Over reaction. There is a huge difference between using your position at work to sexually harass someone and flirting.
2
Okay, so Pence never eats alone with other women. He and his wife have set up some boundaries. I'm guessing they're necessary, at least for them. What might he do if those boundaries weren't in place?
Based on the stats in the article, showing that women deem certain behaviors more "inappropriate" than men, the take away for me, as a man, is that there are things I may do, that are not intended to be sexually inappropriate, which are, however, seen by some women as such.
I believe there are obligations on both sides. I, as a man, need to be aware of the potential for this misperception and exercise reasonable caution, perhaps explaining my motivation in inviting a female colleague to dinner, for example. And my female colleagues need to recognize their own potential for misunderstanding my actions and assigning incorrect motives.
If I see that a female colleague has made an extra effort to dress especially nice, do up her hair, etc... I just may slip and say something like, "You look very nice in that outfit."
I will try not to make such a gaffe. But if I do, please don't misconstrue it to think that I'm asking for sex. I will have meant only what I said.
Based on the stats in the article, showing that women deem certain behaviors more "inappropriate" than men, the take away for me, as a man, is that there are things I may do, that are not intended to be sexually inappropriate, which are, however, seen by some women as such.
I believe there are obligations on both sides. I, as a man, need to be aware of the potential for this misperception and exercise reasonable caution, perhaps explaining my motivation in inviting a female colleague to dinner, for example. And my female colleagues need to recognize their own potential for misunderstanding my actions and assigning incorrect motives.
If I see that a female colleague has made an extra effort to dress especially nice, do up her hair, etc... I just may slip and say something like, "You look very nice in that outfit."
I will try not to make such a gaffe. But if I do, please don't misconstrue it to think that I'm asking for sex. I will have meant only what I said.
5
Perhaps they don't actually need those boundaries but decided that they were of benefit. After all a politician can be accused of things.
2
Vulcanex, we're both speculating.
Where is he protesting? Quite the opposite, he is trying to be extra sensitive about how to behave. Your pseudo ironic reaction, on the other hand, reveals a quite a bit darker undertone.
I weep for American adulthood. If the only thing keeping you faithful to your significant other is the fact that you are never alone with the opposite gender, then your relationship is on shaky ground to begin with. Of course, what about same sex couples? Are they only allowed to be alone with the opposite gender, then?
34
So what does the "Good Christian" Pence, so solicitous of decorous male/female relationships have to say about his political benefactor's latest foul, demeaning rampage against a woman? Why, nothing at all. What should we have expected. After all, he must not be tempted by the devilish temptation to criticize another true believer.
17
Since there was no such rant, why would he comment. A Tweet about one individual female who attacked him has nothing to do with the entire US female population.
1
Why of course there was no reporting of such presidential behavior on Fox "News".
Actually, Vulcanalex, it does. It reflects Trump's attitude toward women - that women are only valuable if they are young and "hot", that "successful" men are free to grab women's genitals, etc.
You think Eve giving Adam the apple has anything to do with making people of the opposite "sex" wary of being alone together? Of course it is the women's fault. Perhaps there should be some form of punishment? Lets withhold their right to vote, lets pay them even less then what they make now, lets take control of their bodies and put them in long dresses or better yet, put all of the women in burkas.
To quote Charlie Brown "Good grief!"
To quote Charlie Brown "Good grief!"
4
you clearly aren't in the working world. HR, dominated by overwhelmingly by women, is the final arbiter. Men get fired for the stupidest thing. Women protected by history.
3
Been in the working world for quite sometime. I work with upper level management and have never had any problems.
Stupid is as stupid does.
Stupid is as stupid does.
Oh, that this country was founded by...Puritans. Their beliefs and attitudes plague us to this day. After almost 4 centuries, we as a country and a culture haven't learned to work and socialize together without sexual undertones and subtext riddling every encounter between a man and a woman. Why is it everything in this country is sexualized?! All that is good and decent in most people gets thrown into this emotional and sexual minefield by our anxieties and fears around sex. Awfully fatiguing it is, and obscures the beauty and rewards of friendship between a man and a woman.
11
Am I terrified of women at work? You bet I am. We are all given sexual harassment training that teaches even an innuendo, a raised eyebrow, if it makes someone uncomfortable, is harassment and grounds for disciplinary action. Why would any sane man let himself get into a one-on-one situation resulting in a he-said-she-said nightmare. Keep away from women when there are no witnesses.
13
I think many of the men responding here are using the new trumpence anti-female atmosphere to justify quivering in fear at the thought of having to interact with (and compete with) women in the workplace. The same lethargic insecure men and women who elected those jokers now see their opportunity to simply ban women in the workplace in order to preserve their male virtue. Sounds just like the Taliban to me. Would you feel better if we covered our heads with sacks and walked three paces behind?
1
You know what is maddening, Alex? A woman doesn't have to be alone with a man to be sexually harassed or treated in a hostile manner. In fact, judging from my experience, a lot of men get a particular thrill out of groping and/or making sexual remarks to women in public places and getting away with it. It is sort of like frottaging a woman on a bus - although there are potential witnesses nearby, the guy usually is not detected by anyone other than the woman he rubs up against.
So when a judge approached me from behind in the crowd at a San Francisco Bar Association function and lewdly fondled my buttock while offering me a ride home, nobody saw him do it. I am sure that fact added to the thrill.
Eventually this judge was removed from the bench, but it took many years, a California Supreme Court chief justice who had remarkable empathy for women, and testimony from numerous women to get rid of him. In the meantime, he continued to get his kicks by sexually assaulting female lawyers, court reporters and clerks, often in the presence of other people.
So much for avoiding one-on-one situations.
So when a judge approached me from behind in the crowd at a San Francisco Bar Association function and lewdly fondled my buttock while offering me a ride home, nobody saw him do it. I am sure that fact added to the thrill.
Eventually this judge was removed from the bench, but it took many years, a California Supreme Court chief justice who had remarkable empathy for women, and testimony from numerous women to get rid of him. In the meantime, he continued to get his kicks by sexually assaulting female lawyers, court reporters and clerks, often in the presence of other people.
So much for avoiding one-on-one situations.
this is ridiculous. I spent years in a large professional accounting firm. the company typically hired 50% male and 50% female each year. I had many platonic women friends and continued to do so after I was married. We had meetings, reviews, went out for drinks, to lunches, dinners, etc...never fell into bed or a sexual relationship with any of them. some of them were among my best friends. today society is just too paranoid. always looking for something that isn't there. I blame the media. creating issues and stirring up fears where there are none nor need to be any sells papers/air time etc...
21
Or some women lying.
2
Wow, what century are we in? What country do we live in? My parents set the model for me. Devotedly married for almost 60 years (till one of them passed), they each had friends of both sexes, and that meant being alone with a friend, as well, for dinner or drinks, or both, or out professionally. Both were in the music world. Both lived full, rich lives. They were about as tight as two people could be, but they led fully independent lives, too. And the key here is that they trusted each other. When my parents were in their late 70's, my mother's old college boyfriend moved to their city. He was lonely and loved speaking Spanish with my mom. He began to spend time at their house. It was the first and only time I ever saw my father sweetly jealous. At 80, he confessed to me, "H- has more hair than I do!" While I, like many women, have had many horrible men over the years behave completely inappropriately toward me (workplace, professional life, social life), I also have relished numerous relationships with men who knew how to behave (and not just gay men friends either!). I've always had men buddies, including straight men with whom I've stayed when visiting, and we've had a wonderful time. That's because they know how to be FRIENDS with women. The men who are the worst are the limited men who assume everything is sexual, even in the most innocent of exchanges, and create unpleasant, painful, and damaging situations. Get it together, men!!!!
28
During my time in the military, if I had to council a subordinate, I was advised to always have a witness in the room, especially if they were female. Prudent advice. It served to protect both parties. As for the poll in this article, the way you avoided rumors was to avoid being alone with a female, period. On one level, unfortunate, but it's simply dealing with reality.
5
"Republican, more religious and less educated." Astounding how often those words occur together in surveys and statistical analyses. Coincidence? I think not.
38
Or biased selection and reporting.
This same poll showed Hillary Clinton the overwhelming choice for President.
3
Forget work. I don't even nod or smile at females on the street. We've been taught that unvited interest in others is a modern era no-no. Fine by me.
Please don't ask me what happened to your child, book, dog, purse, car, keys, phone, friend, or mate: I have no idea. You see.. I stopped paying attention to the other branch of humanity years ago.
Please don't ask me what happened to your child, book, dog, purse, car, keys, phone, friend, or mate: I have no idea. You see.. I stopped paying attention to the other branch of humanity years ago.
4
Do you still wonder why Trump/Pence won and Clinton lost? The former felt the pulse of the nation in transition.
Old divisions are giving rise to new ones. While the 20th century was a fight between the political Right and the Left, the 21st will be a tussle between the right and the wrong, the Believers and non-Believers.
“Le XXIe siècle sera religieux ou ne sera pas”: prophesied Andre Malraux (d 1975) a Minister in de Gaulle’s Cabinet and the darling of the godless Left. (The 21st century will be a religious one, or it shall not be).
Indeed. The world has become increasing “religious” since Malraux departed.
Religion has always been political, about money and power. In fact religion is nothing more than a socio-economic system where rituals allow people with similar economic outlook bond together. The liberals are out of tune with the world.
Old divisions are giving rise to new ones. While the 20th century was a fight between the political Right and the Left, the 21st will be a tussle between the right and the wrong, the Believers and non-Believers.
“Le XXIe siècle sera religieux ou ne sera pas”: prophesied Andre Malraux (d 1975) a Minister in de Gaulle’s Cabinet and the darling of the godless Left. (The 21st century will be a religious one, or it shall not be).
Indeed. The world has become increasing “religious” since Malraux departed.
Religion has always been political, about money and power. In fact religion is nothing more than a socio-economic system where rituals allow people with similar economic outlook bond together. The liberals are out of tune with the world.
1
I couldn't help thinking of "A Handmaid's Tale" as I read this piece.
A bizarre world we live in, if I can't have coffee, a meal or a beer with a female friend or colleague free of concern about the 'appropriateness' of the meeting.
A bizarre world we live in, if I can't have coffee, a meal or a beer with a female friend or colleague free of concern about the 'appropriateness' of the meeting.
27
I don't even know you, but if you're ever in DC, I'd have a meal or drink with you! We could talk about Handmaid's Tale and why it's so relevant.
8
Hard to believe... but this article does in any way describes the current reality in the USA I can only say: guys you need to react.. US are headed back to the dark ages..
7
I have spent much of my adult life in France and own a home there. Sexual harassment of women in the workplace, on public transportation, in the street... is epidemic.
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/05/16/478238350/silent-no-mo...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/france-gets-tough-with-se...
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/05/16/478238350/silent-no-mo...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/france-gets-tough-with-se...
Well this is just the most obvious sign yet that this country is suffering from some kind of puritanical-throwback mental illness. This literally makes my head hurt. I'm 60 years old, married 35 years, and I've worked my entire adult life in law enforcement, around lots of men with guns, no less. I could not do my job if I were afraid to be alone with my co-workers, and I sure would not still be married if my husband were so insecure that he couldn't work with other women or was jealous of me being around other men.
It sounds like a whole lot of this country needs to turn off t.v. soap operas and the Bachelor and grow up. Women will never have equality in this country until they do.
It sounds like a whole lot of this country needs to turn off t.v. soap operas and the Bachelor and grow up. Women will never have equality in this country until they do.
29
So, let's extrapolate a bit and find out if this is (in the "civilized" world) a mostly American, as in the U S of A, phenomenon or are there other nations out there whose citizens are so utterly afraid of the opposite sex that they live with their collective heads in the sand as much as we do?
I have lived and worked in France, Sweden, The Netherlands, Spain and Colombia and worked with the citizens, male and female, of at least another added half dozen nationalities and I have never, ever come even close to anyone even contemplating the out and out avoidance of any tête à tête without the opposite sex.
What do these puritanical holier-than-thous think and speak of those who dare?
A scarlet letter??
We are really truly becoming two disparate nations and that is a scary thought.
I have lived and worked in France, Sweden, The Netherlands, Spain and Colombia and worked with the citizens, male and female, of at least another added half dozen nationalities and I have never, ever come even close to anyone even contemplating the out and out avoidance of any tête à tête without the opposite sex.
What do these puritanical holier-than-thous think and speak of those who dare?
A scarlet letter??
We are really truly becoming two disparate nations and that is a scary thought.
5
I have spent much of my adult life in France. Harassment of women is a huge problem there.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/france-gets-tough-with-se...
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/05/16/478238350/silent-no-mo...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/france-gets-tough-with-se...
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/05/16/478238350/silent-no-mo...
1
Americans Are Wary of Being Alone With the Opposite Sex?
From the once ridiculous to the now absurd...
From the once ridiculous to the now absurd...
6
Well, at least I know now I will never have to be alone with the Vice President. Good grief. I simply do not understand this, and I am a professional.
6
A female professional no doubt.
Ah, that I smell the lovely scent of that ancient male cologne, "Barefoot and Pregnant", in the air.
1
This should come as no surprise. A misunderstanding between a man and a woman in the workplace can cause considerable harm, including loss of job, loss of reputation, and even loss of family relationships.
5
"sure" happens all the time. NOT
1
There was a case at IBM where the accusation was made by the manager's superior who was an older male trying to replace all the first line managers below him with his own spineless lackeys. No women ever accused the manager of sexual harassment; he never sexually harassed any woman. He was my manager and he was relieved of his management job for sexual harassment based solely on his dishonest boss' say so. It was a put up job by a male. The superior was trusted by HR even though his own record of bullying both employees and managers below him was infamous at our site. The superior was a good friend of a vp.
Of course, eventually it all fell apart after I transferred out (and most other employees in the department did too). The eventual toll was that the superior who made the accusation lost his job. His boss, who supported the false accuser, lost his job. The vp lost his job. The product development area affected by this fiasco lost a lot of revenue for IBM (it had previously been a good profitable area with three revenue generating products that were produced at low cost by small departments). I actually think it was the lost revenue that caused the clean up but it was all started by a phony accusation by a male boss against a lower ranking male boss.
So, yes, false accusations of sexual harassment can be devastating but not all are generated by women. This one was a case of dirty office politics.
Of course, eventually it all fell apart after I transferred out (and most other employees in the department did too). The eventual toll was that the superior who made the accusation lost his job. His boss, who supported the false accuser, lost his job. The vp lost his job. The product development area affected by this fiasco lost a lot of revenue for IBM (it had previously been a good profitable area with three revenue generating products that were produced at low cost by small departments). I actually think it was the lost revenue that caused the clean up but it was all started by a phony accusation by a male boss against a lower ranking male boss.
So, yes, false accusations of sexual harassment can be devastating but not all are generated by women. This one was a case of dirty office politics.
1
As a child of the sexual revolution and part of the advance of large numbers of women into the workforce, including corporate America, I find all of this puzzling. I spent 40+ years as a married professional, working with more men than women, and never thought twice about having one-on-one meetings (NOT in hotel rooms), lunch or dinner with a male colleague or boss. I assure you I have experienced sexual harassment- but this was usually in the corporate setting v after some hotel dinner. If you're in town with a few colleagues, and only one wants to get some dinner... or you supposed to refuse 'in good conscience' if that person happens to be male (or female, as the case may be)? I guess it's the inevitable outcome of the 'he said/she said' world we live in along with the threat of lawsuits- but something has been lost if we can't just be adults in a professional setting without dragging gender into it. Another step backwards for women.
15
I sense an arrested developement amoung adults who still cannot separate a friendship, even a close one, with the opposite sex from a more intimate relationship. Running away from a temptation does not mean the ills fraught from it are solved. they just perpetuate to another generation. We can teach our youth to handle these inevitable interactions between our fellow people in a healthier way.
16
I have never had a fear or have been wary of working with women. Not once. My method was determining a comfort level for both of us. In my teens I first started working in mostly in construction and demolition jobs done after school or on the weekends where my interaction with women was limited as it was 99% all male co-workers.
That changed when I was 17 and took a job at a local clothing store where there was 5 men, (one being the owner) and 12 women. My job was in the stockroom where I would unpack boxes and keep the shelves full. The women were the sales force working the floor and all of the women were in the early 20's, very attractive and friendly. Needless to say as a young man of 17 I found this job to be much more enjoyable than swinging a sledgehammer.
During the slow times we would gather and chat. The topic of sex was one that was discussed frequently. I've heard all the pick up lines theses young women endured, the joys or the challenges of the relationships they were in or not in. They would discuss penis size, sexual positions and various other topics regarding sex. Some of the women were more revealing and descriptive in their approach while some were reserved.
It was a great learning experience for me as I knew where the lines were with each individual and I respected those boundaries. As a 50 year old professional male who has worked with and for women nothing has changed for me. It is about respect.
Vive la difference!
That changed when I was 17 and took a job at a local clothing store where there was 5 men, (one being the owner) and 12 women. My job was in the stockroom where I would unpack boxes and keep the shelves full. The women were the sales force working the floor and all of the women were in the early 20's, very attractive and friendly. Needless to say as a young man of 17 I found this job to be much more enjoyable than swinging a sledgehammer.
During the slow times we would gather and chat. The topic of sex was one that was discussed frequently. I've heard all the pick up lines theses young women endured, the joys or the challenges of the relationships they were in or not in. They would discuss penis size, sexual positions and various other topics regarding sex. Some of the women were more revealing and descriptive in their approach while some were reserved.
It was a great learning experience for me as I knew where the lines were with each individual and I respected those boundaries. As a 50 year old professional male who has worked with and for women nothing has changed for me. It is about respect.
Vive la difference!
7
Too many men hard at work, all with a different opinion about how a project should be carried out, closing ranks when 'the little woman' approaches. They have to be separated, a close call when a duel over fencing took place and I fled into the house. They are all married, some with young grandchildren.
I have secret names for them: Mr. Squirrel, Mr. Badger and Mr. Otter, while always remembering to ask about their 'Mrs.', inviting them to fictitious High Tea with gingerbread husbands. But there is one connecting point in this anecdote, they tend to be territorial. Compensated for the landscape work, they show up with small gifts: garden gloves, a catalog on Stars of the Summer - our Birds. By the way, have you yet to meet a man who does not like eggs?
Only once did I work alone in an office with a man who was my supervisor and lost my temper because he was not a real boss. The kindest person I have met, married twice, he told me he did not understand why men had so much trouble understanding women.
'Romance'. Some fun and interesting exchanges with younger men late in life where I am in the 'complimentary' driver's seat and there is no need for them to worry that they are being stalked, or for me to wonder about their pouncing. Curious, I ask what is happening in the times we live when it comes to meeting 'someone' (I leave out that I have a greater empathy for my own gender), but want to know if women are in fact as desperate as depicted. I wonder.
I have secret names for them: Mr. Squirrel, Mr. Badger and Mr. Otter, while always remembering to ask about their 'Mrs.', inviting them to fictitious High Tea with gingerbread husbands. But there is one connecting point in this anecdote, they tend to be territorial. Compensated for the landscape work, they show up with small gifts: garden gloves, a catalog on Stars of the Summer - our Birds. By the way, have you yet to meet a man who does not like eggs?
Only once did I work alone in an office with a man who was my supervisor and lost my temper because he was not a real boss. The kindest person I have met, married twice, he told me he did not understand why men had so much trouble understanding women.
'Romance'. Some fun and interesting exchanges with younger men late in life where I am in the 'complimentary' driver's seat and there is no need for them to worry that they are being stalked, or for me to wonder about their pouncing. Curious, I ask what is happening in the times we live when it comes to meeting 'someone' (I leave out that I have a greater empathy for my own gender), but want to know if women are in fact as desperate as depicted. I wonder.
2
I see it coming in the age of Trump: A worker can refuse on religious grounds to carry out an assignment because they have to work alone with a member of the opposite sex.
This is even implied in the article by the 60 year old Catholic who refers to the 6th Commandment forbidding adultery and saying being in a room alone with an opposite sex member jeopardizes that.
This is even implied in the article by the 60 year old Catholic who refers to the 6th Commandment forbidding adultery and saying being in a room alone with an opposite sex member jeopardizes that.
9
I am not able to decide who I am sexually attracted to, but I am able to decide how to respond to that attraction and continue to make responsible, mature decisions in the midst of it.
Let's stop playing the victim to our sexuality and grow up. We have to figure out how to live in this world and that includes, yes, including our inner world with it.
Glass walled conference rooms are NOT a solution.
Let's stop playing the victim to our sexuality and grow up. We have to figure out how to live in this world and that includes, yes, including our inner world with it.
Glass walled conference rooms are NOT a solution.
11
My problem with this is, if something is Ok with 99% of a group but 1% has a problem, then everyone has to go their level.
7
Driving in a car with a member of the opposite sex is inappropriate to 38% of women, 29% of men? Having lunch, inappropriate to 44 % of women, 36 % of men?
This confirms my view that sensible people with lives don't have time to answer polls.
This confirms my view that sensible people with lives don't have time to answer polls.
20
I really hope you are correct. Otherwise I think we are doomed.
3
The confusion males sense sadly when we look at some of the messages we send to young people (who eventually morph into older/old people).
A. 'sex sells everything' to quote Joni Mitchell;
B. sex/reproduction/contraception comprise a general topic that taboo in many schools to discuss before or during puberty in school;
C. The bible in all its confusion on the subject is the knowledge source for so many;
D. People people are offended/outraged by breast feeding but a Hooter's is a family restaurant
etc, etc etc.
A. 'sex sells everything' to quote Joni Mitchell;
B. sex/reproduction/contraception comprise a general topic that taboo in many schools to discuss before or during puberty in school;
C. The bible in all its confusion on the subject is the knowledge source for so many;
D. People people are offended/outraged by breast feeding but a Hooter's is a family restaurant
etc, etc etc.
4
I'm the only woman in a 5 person office and wouldn't have it any other way. We're all friends.
1
Maybe women are wary of men because the ones in power have given the rest of the guys such a horrible reputation. We have CEO's in Silicon Valley who think noting of harassing female employees, a president who readily confesses to grabbing women's genitals, calls women "dogs" and "pigs," talks about their bodily functions (especially those having to do with blood) in a degrading manner, insults them directly, and treats them like objects. And then there are hundreds of elected representatives who won't call him to task about it. And who behave in similar ways. And then the vice president is rabidly homophobic, which is sexism and misogyny on steroids. His unctuous demeanor is creepy, to say the least. I can't imagine anyone being comfortable in a room alone with him ... this is a problem in America ... in Europe? Not so much. Of course, Americans believe they do everything better than anyone else, so there's no possibility to learn anything from those who have figured it out ...
6
the Europeans are right; C'est la difference...the level of paranoia here concerning men/women relations and contact is ridiculous. Why don't we create the sexual harassment police? Caught looking at a woman's derriere as it undulates down the hallway at work? You're guilty...90 days and a $5000 fine. Would you like to have sex now? Fine, please read and execute this consent form... No wonder the birth rate in the US is falling.
2
Obviously, there is a simple way to avoid all this. Out of the home, all females past puberty must be completely covered. Call them " churkas ":
( combining Church plus Burka). This will prevent temptation. Right???
( combining Church plus Burka). This will prevent temptation. Right???
6
In a paternalistic society women are generally deemed either virgins or whores. Right wing christian influence - especially with the election of a man who brags about grabbing women's genitalia - doesn't leave a lot of choices for platonic relationships or mixed sex socializing. Christian sharia is winning.
13
Au contraire, I think that the ubiquitous nature of pornography and sexually explicit material in our entertainment media have brainwashed men to think of women only as sex objects. Then in a public forum, men are left with uncomfortably dissonant thoughts like, "Here's a sex object, but I'm in a place where I cannot respond to it as I am accustomed to do." Hence, awkwardness.
1
These activities are quite normal at work, especially on business trips. Very often the typical "2 consultants" arrangement will have a man and a woman, then the 2 together having a drink, eating meal, driving is not just ordinary but professionally expected.
2
I am not exaggerating when I say I am in a mild state of mourning over the fact that it is so difficult for men and women just to be friends in the US at the moment. Of course, I don't know how it is for everyone everywhere, but since we moved to the 'burbs years ago and away from most people with artistic intentions and those who share of our professions, the life that I see available is too straight laced, restricted, limited.
In my reading, I have seen people make statements that any sense of intimacy (conversation, sharing a secret or confiding in another) between a married man and someone who is not his wife is a form of adultery. This strikes me as excessive, nuts. That is, nonetheless, the way it is or the way it would be viewed by many.
Marriage is not supposed to be a prison. Ideally, it should also represent a way to open oneself to others and new experiences. It can be argued, however, that the whole structure of suburban communities is oriented around isolating people inside marriages and away from casual social contact with the opposite sex. Of course, limits to the degree of that contact are normal, but it seems in trying to sustain relationships between two people, sometimes we cut ourselves off from the larger world.
When the constant complaints about male conduct are added on top of this, it is no wonder that ordinary contact between men and women are fraught with difficulty. We have worked to make it that way for decades.
In my reading, I have seen people make statements that any sense of intimacy (conversation, sharing a secret or confiding in another) between a married man and someone who is not his wife is a form of adultery. This strikes me as excessive, nuts. That is, nonetheless, the way it is or the way it would be viewed by many.
Marriage is not supposed to be a prison. Ideally, it should also represent a way to open oneself to others and new experiences. It can be argued, however, that the whole structure of suburban communities is oriented around isolating people inside marriages and away from casual social contact with the opposite sex. Of course, limits to the degree of that contact are normal, but it seems in trying to sustain relationships between two people, sometimes we cut ourselves off from the larger world.
When the constant complaints about male conduct are added on top of this, it is no wonder that ordinary contact between men and women are fraught with difficulty. We have worked to make it that way for decades.
6
Coming to America from Europe, the division of male and female camps was something that puzzled me tremendously. The first time, at eighteen, when I landed in academic circles, this wasn't as obvious as the second time around, when I was in my thirties. Not only did people of like gender flock together, so did age groups, old and young don't mix well in the U.S. unless related or brought together as charges and caregivers. Saddening. One of the reasons why I miss Europe.
4
My Father told me never to believe anything that I "hear" and only "half of what I see." I've always considered it very good advice.
4
What this country should be "wary" of, is moving backwards at the speed of light.
That conversations like this are even necessary in this day and age, is evidence of how far and fast we're slipping into Trump-Pence world.
That conversations like this are even necessary in this day and age, is evidence of how far and fast we're slipping into Trump-Pence world.
12
To all those male commenters who have said they avoid being alone with a woman because they don't want to be wrongfully accused -- and it's just not worth the risk.
Here is my response. Over forty years ago (when I was a very young woman) I was dragged out of a parking lot (having come from a restaurant shortly before) into a construction pit nearby by two men (total strangers, no date rape here), raped and nearly stabbed to death.
I am literally lucky to be alive. I have had horrific nightmares for over for decades. I literally jump in fear whenever a man walks up behind me. Needless to say, I try to avoid being alone with any man, no matter the circumstances.
So who has more to "risk", men, you or your sisters, mothers, or daughters?
Here is my response. Over forty years ago (when I was a very young woman) I was dragged out of a parking lot (having come from a restaurant shortly before) into a construction pit nearby by two men (total strangers, no date rape here), raped and nearly stabbed to death.
I am literally lucky to be alive. I have had horrific nightmares for over for decades. I literally jump in fear whenever a man walks up behind me. Needless to say, I try to avoid being alone with any man, no matter the circumstances.
So who has more to "risk", men, you or your sisters, mothers, or daughters?
12
Thank you for writing. I for one, hope they died a long time ago, and in excruciating pain. Seriously.
1
Work is work. I have to say it never crossed my mind that having a one-on-one meeting with the opposite sex would be inappropriate. I've been in the workforce for 40+ year and this issue has never come up.
How would the work world function without one-on-one meetings? Do you say "I can't meet with you for my employee review without a chaperone?" Or, I can't drive to a business meeting with you because you're a man/woman? This article has me shaking my head.
How would the work world function without one-on-one meetings? Do you say "I can't meet with you for my employee review without a chaperone?" Or, I can't drive to a business meeting with you because you're a man/woman? This article has me shaking my head.
15
Do I ever miss the good old days when one could be friends with a married guy.
In the late *70s in NY I worked for a Japanese trading company. The family of our department*s manager had returned to Japan. I was young and single. He and I were best buddies. He*d take me for lunch, take me to dinner--once to celebrate his birthday. When he returned from a business trip to China, he gave me a lovely sterling and turquoise brooch. When he was moving back to Japan, he gave me his color TV.
We were FRIENDS. He never made a move on me. I never made a move on him. We did a lot of laughing together.
In the late *70s in NY I worked for a Japanese trading company. The family of our department*s manager had returned to Japan. I was young and single. He and I were best buddies. He*d take me for lunch, take me to dinner--once to celebrate his birthday. When he returned from a business trip to China, he gave me a lovely sterling and turquoise brooch. When he was moving back to Japan, he gave me his color TV.
We were FRIENDS. He never made a move on me. I never made a move on him. We did a lot of laughing together.
8
The way it ought to be as imagined by H.L. Mencken in his "In Defense of Women," 1918:
"It is the close of a busy and vexatious day—say half past five or six o’clock of a winter afternoon. I have had a cocktail or two, and am stretched out on a divan in front of a fire, smoking. At the edge of the divan, close enough for me to reach her with my hand, sits a woman not too young, but still good-looking and well-dressed—above all, a woman with a soft, low-pitched, agreeable voice. As I snooze she talks—of anything, everything, all the things that women talk of: books, music, the play, men, other women. No politics. No business. No religion. No metaphysics. Nothing challenging and vexatious—but remember, she is intelligent; what she says is clearly expressed, and often picturesquely. I observe the fine sheen of her hair, the pretty cut of her frock, the glint of her white teeth, the arch of her eye-brow, the graceful curve of her arm. I listen to the exquisite murmur of her voice. Gradually I fall asleep—but only for an instant. At once, observing it, she raises her voice ever so little, and I am awake. Then to sleep again—slowly and charmingly down that slippery hill of dreams. And then awake again, and then asleep again, and so on.
I ask you seriously: could anything be more unutterably beautiful."
"It is the close of a busy and vexatious day—say half past five or six o’clock of a winter afternoon. I have had a cocktail or two, and am stretched out on a divan in front of a fire, smoking. At the edge of the divan, close enough for me to reach her with my hand, sits a woman not too young, but still good-looking and well-dressed—above all, a woman with a soft, low-pitched, agreeable voice. As I snooze she talks—of anything, everything, all the things that women talk of: books, music, the play, men, other women. No politics. No business. No religion. No metaphysics. Nothing challenging and vexatious—but remember, she is intelligent; what she says is clearly expressed, and often picturesquely. I observe the fine sheen of her hair, the pretty cut of her frock, the glint of her white teeth, the arch of her eye-brow, the graceful curve of her arm. I listen to the exquisite murmur of her voice. Gradually I fall asleep—but only for an instant. At once, observing it, she raises her voice ever so little, and I am awake. Then to sleep again—slowly and charmingly down that slippery hill of dreams. And then awake again, and then asleep again, and so on.
I ask you seriously: could anything be more unutterably beautiful."
2
As in other aspects of life and human interaction all depends on the individual....and most folks are just fine to be able to freely interact without these archaic and reactionary concerns.
1
No wonder the Europeans laugh at us.
13
This statement is always uttered by Americans that have never really lived in Europe for any extended period of time. Many of my girlfriends were harassed constantly in gatherings in Germany and Austria. This harassment included not only incredibly rude and disrespectful comments by doctors lawyers etc but also inappropriate touching (yes "boob" grabbing). It was quite shocking really. American men are well behaved and respectful in comparison. Europeans don't have it all figured out.
I lived in Europe twice, Switzerland and Germany. There are cads everywhere, but Europeans generally are not hung up about sex the way Americans are.
Given that many Bible-believing Christians, as well as President Trump, believe that sexually assaulting women is okay with God (there is no such prohibition the Ten Commandments), I'd be afraid too, especially if I were a woman or a child of either sex.
4
There are many who say they believe the Bible, but don't really know what it says. Rapists would have been executed under Levitical law. Indeed, I think our country could make great forward progress if we executed rapists, pedophiles, and child molesters who produce CP.
Oh, good gracious, why is everything sexualized? Folks who adhere to such a policy in their relationships remind me of junior high and high school when "first love" could incite furious jealousy. First, this article and its charts assume everyone is "straight." Not so! Second, the assumption is that every man and every woman spending time "alone" are somehow unable to control themselves. I can't imagine a partner dictating what I can and can't do with friends or coworkers. Nor I can imagine doing that to another human being. In many professions, women would be deeply disadvantaged if they can't have meals or socialize with their coworkers and bosses. Keeping such a tight rein on another human being is bound to backfire. And for those "nosy Parkers" who assume "something must be going on" if two people of opposite sex are seen together, then get a life. Someone who wants to cheat on a partner or spouse will cheat, no matter what. If you are someone who develops healthy social and friendly relationships with a wide range of people, you are less likely to see sexual opportunity in everything, and more likely to enjoy the fruits of friendship. Yes, there are jerks out there, and there are predators. But the majority of people are not, and closing yourself off to life is sad. So-called "Christian values" should follow Jesus's teachings that you include a wide range of people in your sphere, not shut them out.
8
When I read about Mike Pence's fear of eating with woman who is not his wife I had to laugh. Is it himself he does not trust or his wife? What can happen to him while eating with a female work friend or a female diplomat from another country? Sure a lot of stuff but both have to agree. She can't knock him down under the table and jump on him. I suspect he thinks women are so low that he feels it is below him. Or they are jezebels who will seduce him. Relax.Mike, none of us think you are attractive at all. More like a scared but dangerous rabbit. I traveled with males for many years. Usually we ate together and there was never a problem and if I do say I was very attractive and fashionable. I never even considered it a problem. The thought of Mike Pence being pushed under a table and ravished is so laughable. But maybe it is just me.
5
Claire, please write an article about what the Top Level of the BusinessWorld expects of employees. The skill-set needed for one-on-one conversations. These employees focus on intelligent, substantial, well-educated matters. Not gender differences, if there actually are any. I suppose it would upset many USA citizens that someone like Mike Pence who cannot handle skirts and pants is Vice President. Oh, and then there is President Trump. Waste of taxpayer money. ----- PS. There are many women who have Higher IQs than these "men" who are still uneducated boys. Much Higher!! And their Resumes are more prestigious too. Where do they work? ---- It is a shame for the USA that such Political Jobs don't have higher education standards. What do they do.... call the Brilliant IQ Consult Agency to change their diapers? Sometimes, you just have to do it yourself. I don't think this Private Company is taking calls from the Trump/Pence White House.
The survey should have asked questions about each respondent' work situation: 1). Do you work outside the home? For those who answered yes: 2) How would you describe the gender composition of your workplace? (The options would range from 100% to 0% for a given gender). These answers are important for getting at the implications of the results.
2
This seems insane to me. I'm a single working woman, nearing retirement, and I would have had a very lonely career if none of my male colleagues had dared to meet or eat alone with me. How does anyone manage with this kind of gender-conscious skittishness in the workplace?
3
The problem is--sexual harassment and discrimination are subtle and open to interpretation and mis-interpretation. If a situation doesn't feel right--stay away. Intuition works for me. As an officer of a professional organization, I traveled frequently with straight and gay men and lesbian females, and never had any issues that I couldn't walk away from or challenge straight on. A simple laugh and "you want me to do what?" usually works.
Issues of sexual harrassment are one thing, and the feeling that being alone with a member of the opposite sex automatically suggests a romantic liaison (and that it matters) is another. After spending most of my adult life in Manhattan, I recently moved to a small town in western Massachusetts. The area has quite a bit of diversity in all ways, but I have been shocked by what seems to be a prevailing attitude that, unless they are in an opposite-sex relationship with each other, men socialize with men and women with women. I have tried to understand it, thinking perhaps it is that I am older now, but it mainly seems to come down to an extremely conventional code of propriety that I would guess most of the people I'm thinking of would deny adhering to - it's just what they've always done. I miss the much richer, "coed" social (and also more age-diverse) occasions that were the norm in NY, at least among those I know.
4
This article misinterprets its statistics shamefully. I invite readers to carefully examine the graphs. Disaggregated by party, religion, and education, the vast majority have no problem about the "mingling" of the sexes in the worplace, even a majority of evangelicals.
4
When I was young I got hit on by a few married male co-workers. It really was an exception rather than what I would call a rule. It was a reflection on the personality of the person making it sexual, rather than one on one co-worker meetings or meals together.
I never reported it to management nor publicly accused the person hitting on me. I made it clear I was not interested in a sexual relationship with the person. I would not ruin someone's career simply because they hit on me or on other young women like me. When one is young, one gets hit on by total strangers as well.
One co-worker was rumored to hit on all young women at the site where we worked (women do talk to each other about this).
Another co-worker was very angry at me when I got engaged to be married, for turning down a chance (repeatedly offered) to have an affair with him. He used the classic line, his wife did not understand him. Frankly, I do not know why he thought I understood him. He certainly did not understand me or he would have stopped asking after the first no. I always suspected he had multiple young women he chased around at work.
I never reported it to management nor publicly accused the person hitting on me. I made it clear I was not interested in a sexual relationship with the person. I would not ruin someone's career simply because they hit on me or on other young women like me. When one is young, one gets hit on by total strangers as well.
One co-worker was rumored to hit on all young women at the site where we worked (women do talk to each other about this).
Another co-worker was very angry at me when I got engaged to be married, for turning down a chance (repeatedly offered) to have an affair with him. He used the classic line, his wife did not understand him. Frankly, I do not know why he thought I understood him. He certainly did not understand me or he would have stopped asking after the first no. I always suspected he had multiple young women he chased around at work.
Are we seriously in 21st century? Have I unknowingly stepped into a time machine and ended up in middle ages?
4
Love how so many (mostly) men here are worried that the merest hint of impropriety will bring the law crushing down on them and cost them they're career.
Then I read other stories on how many sexual harassment claims are ignored/swept under the rug/turned on the accuser and I wonder how both could be true.
Then I read other stories on how many sexual harassment claims are ignored/swept under the rug/turned on the accuser and I wonder how both could be true.
3
I'm in education, and I will never be in a room with a student with the door closed. Not for religious/sexual etc reasons, but because too many people misinterpret things, and it is not worth the hassle of even being questioned about it.
4
Man and woman are two different species like male and female among animals.
Sex makes them look different but sex arises in man as predator instantly if he is eating, talking alone meeting or driving alone with a woman from work place. Woman should try to stay away from such only two alone situation if possible..because man alone with woman in 10 minutes thinks about if she woud be good in bed
Sex makes them look different but sex arises in man as predator instantly if he is eating, talking alone meeting or driving alone with a woman from work place. Woman should try to stay away from such only two alone situation if possible..because man alone with woman in 10 minutes thinks about if she woud be good in bed
1
I feel terribly sorry for you having to go thru life with that mentality.
4
Pence's comment said more about him than it did about women. This is also the person who call his wife mother--that's creepy.
11
Women cannot rely on their own motivations to tell them what the situation is. Men's fantasies are such that they will convince themselves of a woman's interest where nothing of the sort is going on. And, this is so whether men think they want the attention or not. For example, within minutes of meeting a woman in a social situation a married man will make a point of mentioning his wife in a way that is quite insulting, because it presumes an interest on the woman's part, or he will hide the fact that he is married when it would be appropriate to mention it. Rather than hoping (or fearing) that a woman is interested, why can't men just assume that a woman has no more sexual interest in him then the average man? Everything is projection, and women should be aware of this self-delusion (don't be alone with Bill Cosby) but not have to hide in situations that should be safe, such as at work or their own home when the electrician shows up.
2
I am a gay man over 60, yet over the last 30 years I find it can be uncomfortably unpleasant to speak to women, especially younger ones, whether at work or at the supermarket. They are so often defensive, ill at ease, and annoyed by even the most casual remark ("Excuse me, may I grab that grocery divider in front of you?"). I've surmised that more women in New York are getting much unwanted attentions from too many men. I have certainly witnessed this occasionally on the street, and at construction sites, but it must have become much more challenging for women -- and in more social settings.
2
Oh let's all be frightened and never do anything, never trust anyone. Yeah, that must be the way to do things.
6
Pence also believes that Donald Trump is a great and wise man. He has many strange beliefs.
11
I find these statistics appalling. I do not understand why people feel so sexualized in this society. It is because we pay too close attention to gender Identification? Are we not teaching our children to respect other people as humans? Do we put too much emphasis on being a "Good Girl" or "One of the Boys"? We now know the sex of babies before they are born which will even exacerbate the situation even more. We all have brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, aunts, uncles, grandparents, cousins with whom we interact in a non-sexual way. Why does there have to be a supposition that an encounter with an unrelated person of the opposite sex would somehow turn sexual? To avoid such situations instead of confronting perpetrators in the rare instance that it happens is counterproductive.
3
This is so sad. How can Americans effectively criticize Muslim countries that segregate genders, negatively impacting the ability of women in those countries to earn a decent income, when so many Americans secretly feel the same way?
7
I think a lot of people are overestimating how tempting they are to others.
8
definitely!
1
I do, certainly, but I am repeatedly proven wrong.
1
My husband of 20 years and I have long had rules about being alone with members of the opposite sex. It's about avoiding the appearance of impropriety, not giving anyone the opportunity to accuse is suspect, and being above reproach.
Kudos to Mike Pence for clearly and unapologetically establishing and publishing his boundaries. Would that more men do the same.
Kudos to Mike Pence for clearly and unapologetically establishing and publishing his boundaries. Would that more men do the same.
4
The problem with Pence's approach is that it takes 50% of the workforce and makes it very difficult for them function as equals. If Pence is the one who can't control himself then he's the one with the problem. He's the one who'll need a lawyer, not for harassment but discrimination and cutting women off from professional opportunities because he's emotionally unsound and culturally stuck in the 1950's. Apparently from the survey he's not alone either. Nice, we're getting more and more proof that we're still a deeply sexist and racist society.
4
My wife is a managing director of a NYC boutique-size company.
She often has one-on-one meetings with both peers and subordinates who happen to be male.
She sometimes lunches or dines one-on-one with people clients or prospective or current clients who happen to be male.
When she was the CEO of a professional society, the same conditions maintained.
She has traveled extensively for work, with collegues of both genders.
She has travelled to distant locales to scuba dive with friends of both genders.
Twice, she traveled to Antarctica where she lived and worked in a remote field camp for months with male coleagues.
She has never mentioned any of the fears, trepidations, avoidances mentioned in this article.
Not even once.
Living the way the people mentioned in this article discuss, she would have neither a career or a social life.
Our home would be her prison.
She often has one-on-one meetings with both peers and subordinates who happen to be male.
She sometimes lunches or dines one-on-one with people clients or prospective or current clients who happen to be male.
When she was the CEO of a professional society, the same conditions maintained.
She has traveled extensively for work, with collegues of both genders.
She has travelled to distant locales to scuba dive with friends of both genders.
Twice, she traveled to Antarctica where she lived and worked in a remote field camp for months with male coleagues.
She has never mentioned any of the fears, trepidations, avoidances mentioned in this article.
Not even once.
Living the way the people mentioned in this article discuss, she would have neither a career or a social life.
Our home would be her prison.
13
Prison, yes. THAT is the point. Ask Preacher Pence.
3
It looks like most responders to this article have missed the point.
The issue is not spending time with the opposite sex for a MARRIED person, NOT his/her spouse. That is practically impossible!
The issue is that spending time alone in close encounters, AND often, especially when not an essential, CAN open doors for intimacy that could trap one or the other party into a compromised situation, ending up with he said/she said accusations...case in point: the unending drama with Bill Cosby
The issue is not spending time with the opposite sex for a MARRIED person, NOT his/her spouse. That is practically impossible!
The issue is that spending time alone in close encounters, AND often, especially when not an essential, CAN open doors for intimacy that could trap one or the other party into a compromised situation, ending up with he said/she said accusations...case in point: the unending drama with Bill Cosby
1
I have had personal (non-sexual) and work relations with men. I have worked alone with men, traveled as part of our work together etc. No problem. Really not a question about appropriateness--no more than two male or two female employees doing the same.
I enjoy having a male as a friend without benefits for many reasons including I get insight into male thought and get male insights as well.
I enjoy having a male as a friend without benefits for many reasons including I get insight into male thought and get male insights as well.
5
thank goodness. a woman confident in herself and without fear. kudos to you.
1
Then how do we get past discrimination? I think though such a poll is "looking" for the hesitant or even fearful responses it got. Even with such a pushy poll, are relations becoming more or less business-appropriate?
Men avoiding being alone with a woman need not have anything to do with feminism. It's simply reducing the risk that the woman accuses the man of inappropriate behavior, to which there is no defense.
Overly cautious? Maybe. I also avoid food whose source is uncertain and neighborhoods that are unsafe. Why run a risk if you don't need to?
Overly cautious? Maybe. I also avoid food whose source is uncertain and neighborhoods that are unsafe. Why run a risk if you don't need to?
10
You may be avoiding unnecessarily a friendship, non-sexual, with a female co-worker. When I was young, I would never have accused you of hitting on me even if you did. I repeatedly had lunch with male co-workers because we liked the same restaurants and had a lunch break at the same time. Plus, we were friends. Just friends.
True, but the risk is that you may also be accused of inappropriate behaviour. As a single male, I never have lunch or drinks with female colleagues without others being present. Sad, but that is the world we live are forced to live in.
2
That is ridiculous. Look at all the women who waited years to report sexual harassment against Roger Ailes. As a general rule, women do not make false accusations of sexual harassment. But as a rule, when they do, there is, at the accused's disposal, an entire culture and system that works to defend the accused and attack the accuser. We see this all the time.
2
First, I must say I'm amazed that anyone who is so personally insecure is even in politics.
My husband and I, married over 50 years have each dined or had drinks alone with members of the opposite sex countless times over the years, and somehow always managed to emerge from these encounters with our virtue intact; neither of us expected otherwise. We have even (gasp!) taken separate vacations, always feeling that our relationship was enriched by time spent with other people. It never occurred to either of us that this behavior might be considered scandalous by some - and frankly it wouldn't have bothered us....
I do wonder why since Christianity is by admission such an important factor in the lives and behavior of these peoples, it isn't carried over into concern for children, the poor, the sick, the elderly - as well as concern for the well-being of the Earth, God's greatest creation.
My husband and I, married over 50 years have each dined or had drinks alone with members of the opposite sex countless times over the years, and somehow always managed to emerge from these encounters with our virtue intact; neither of us expected otherwise. We have even (gasp!) taken separate vacations, always feeling that our relationship was enriched by time spent with other people. It never occurred to either of us that this behavior might be considered scandalous by some - and frankly it wouldn't have bothered us....
I do wonder why since Christianity is by admission such an important factor in the lives and behavior of these peoples, it isn't carried over into concern for children, the poor, the sick, the elderly - as well as concern for the well-being of the Earth, God's greatest creation.
17
Yes, I do wonder about V.P. Mike Pence too. Sigh. Another insecure male.
1
In the 90s, a colleague represented a woman who claimed to be sexually attacked in an elevator at work. He won a limited settlement that left about $3K in his expenses unreimbursed. The client wanted to talk about the amount at dinner.
On arriving at the table, she looked at him directly and asked if there were not "some other way" she could take care of the bill. Fortunately, he got up, walked away and wrote off the remaining amount.
Which was the smart thing to do. Even smarter would have been to decline dinner with her entirely. It's possible that she wanted to talk about bartering her homemade berry preserves or her RV for the remaining fees--as many female commenters here would like to believe-- but I wouldn't bet my career or reputation on it.
On arriving at the table, she looked at him directly and asked if there were not "some other way" she could take care of the bill. Fortunately, he got up, walked away and wrote off the remaining amount.
Which was the smart thing to do. Even smarter would have been to decline dinner with her entirely. It's possible that she wanted to talk about bartering her homemade berry preserves or her RV for the remaining fees--as many female commenters here would like to believe-- but I wouldn't bet my career or reputation on it.
8
Your story has the ring of truth. Not all women are sexual predators as this woman obviously was, just as not all men are sexual predators. I would actually put the percentage of sexual predators of either sex at a low number, based on my experience, say 10-20%. However, I was not a lawyer. I was a computer programmer/SW engineer. Perhaps lawyers run into more of them than tech workers. I applaud the man in the story for his walking away.
The tech industry has its share of unequal treatment of women in the industry but it is more just plain misogyny than sexual harassment.
The tech industry has its share of unequal treatment of women in the industry but it is more just plain misogyny than sexual harassment.
I have been thinking about this story for several hours now. On the one hand, I agree that is is dispiriting and somewhat surprising. I also agree with the many commenters who note that the whole discussion lacks nuance, and that it conflates so many issues together. Do many people truly have blanket rules about meetings based wholly on the sex of the other person involved? That's what seems so silly to me. These are, are heart, questions of -- dare I say -- etiquette and proper behavior (and professional behavior too) but surely they are also situation specific. Being wary of possible misunderstandings is wise, but surely one can do that and still not fall into the trap of assuming that all one-on-one meetings between members of the opposite sex are questionable. It depends on many factors. As a married woman with male friends, I am always careful in my personal and professional life to adhere to some basic social conventions; one is always acknowledging my own husband and asking after my male friend's wives in social situations, for example, even when they aren't there. Another is to generally have group rather than one-on-one interactions, though I don't avoid those at all costs. Seems to me that is the mature way to negotiate such interactions is to operate openly and in public, but also to not read sinister undertones into one when it happens.
5
I found the data astounding. As the head of several enterprises, I met alone with men frequently and remember several instances when I was the lone woman at a dinner meeting. I never felt uncomfortable nor that the situation was inappropriate. The only times I ever made sure there was a third person in a meeting was when I had to reprimand or fire someone. But, Then, I do fall into the advanced degree holder, atheist, independent voter categories.
12
Two recent mass killings were perpetuated by sexual harassment firings. And I do not believe these commenters about how they laugh at the fear of being charged with harassment...I suspect none of them work (nor have ever worked) or are in a position where they have nothing to lose. Folks on entitlement programs are not concerned about being sued, they can laugh...they are untouchables.
2
On entitlement programs? Huh?
3
Many people making these comments have stated their profession. I worked writing software for IBM for 31 years before retiring. Your comment is offensive and not well thought out.
Are you implying that all people on here, who express doubt about overly concerned people who worry about being charged with sexual harassment, are on entitlement programs? All of us???
I believe that part of your comment is a fallacy.
I am editting your comment. It should read "some of the..." and please note that the word some means "one or more" which could be only one.
How do we know you are not on an entitlement program yourself? I am always amazed when someone rails against entitlement programs since a certain incident online. I remember one guy doing this and then found out that he had signed up his children for free school lunches and was working out of his home to avoid declaring income and paying taxes.
I believe that part of your comment is a fallacy.
I am editting your comment. It should read "some of the..." and please note that the word some means "one or more" which could be only one.
How do we know you are not on an entitlement program yourself? I am always amazed when someone rails against entitlement programs since a certain incident online. I remember one guy doing this and then found out that he had signed up his children for free school lunches and was working out of his home to avoid declaring income and paying taxes.
"They also explain in part why women still don’t have the same opportunities as men. They are treated differently not just on the golf course or in the boardroom, but in daily episodes large and small, at work and in their social lives."
...which is, let's be frank, largely of their own making.
...which is, let's be frank, largely of their own making.
5
What's largely of our own making--not golfing with a group of men?
2
How so?
1
Richard - please explain how the ugly situations women face daily are "largely of their own making."
2
Billy Graham, at the beginning of his ministry, laid down a rule: No men will be alone with a woman. This was back in the 1940s. It was prudent, not paranoid.
He was lauded for this policy. And there were zero valid claims of sexual harassment or inappropriate behaviour in his ministry.
Vice President Pence, a Christian, wants to avoid any suggestion of impropriety. So, in this present climate of sexual harassment litigation, he chooses to not meet with women "one on one". It is prudent, not paranoid.
But he is excoriated for this by the Left/Progressives as a sexist misogynist.
And the recent report of sexual harassment against women of Silicon Valley. Can you blame men for avoiding even the possibility of a law suit that could literally end their career.
Remember the Duke LaCrosse team?
They were accused of rape by a woman. The attorney general of the state convicted them in interviews - before the trial had even been set. Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson slandered them in the press.
Turns out, the woman was nowhere near Duke on that night. She lied. Their lives were destroyed. And we got no apology from Sharpton or Jackson for their slanderous behaviour.
Remember Tawana Brawley, the Central Park Rape victim? Yeah, she lied about being raped. She was out past her curfew and didn't want to get in trouble. And men suffered.
And you wonder why men are increasingly reluctant to do "one on one" sessions with women - even in public spaces??
We live in different times now.
He was lauded for this policy. And there were zero valid claims of sexual harassment or inappropriate behaviour in his ministry.
Vice President Pence, a Christian, wants to avoid any suggestion of impropriety. So, in this present climate of sexual harassment litigation, he chooses to not meet with women "one on one". It is prudent, not paranoid.
But he is excoriated for this by the Left/Progressives as a sexist misogynist.
And the recent report of sexual harassment against women of Silicon Valley. Can you blame men for avoiding even the possibility of a law suit that could literally end their career.
Remember the Duke LaCrosse team?
They were accused of rape by a woman. The attorney general of the state convicted them in interviews - before the trial had even been set. Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson slandered them in the press.
Turns out, the woman was nowhere near Duke on that night. She lied. Their lives were destroyed. And we got no apology from Sharpton or Jackson for their slanderous behaviour.
Remember Tawana Brawley, the Central Park Rape victim? Yeah, she lied about being raped. She was out past her curfew and didn't want to get in trouble. And men suffered.
And you wonder why men are increasingly reluctant to do "one on one" sessions with women - even in public spaces??
We live in different times now.
23
Hopefully male bosses everywhere will understand that two examples from across a 30-year span is not justification for shutting women out of opportunities to advance.
1
Agree with slight correction. It was the Honorable Mike Nifong, the Distrct Attorney, who was dirty in the Duke case. It was the state Attorney General, I seem to recall, who affirmatively exonerated the young men.
1
Well, Pence is sexist, regardless of what you say. His pernicious, rabid homophobia proves that. And what makes people homophobic? Sexism. And misogyny.
Your examples of false accusations ignore the thousands of instances that have proved true. Hauling out a few that weren't doesn't prove anything.
Your examples of false accusations ignore the thousands of instances that have proved true. Hauling out a few that weren't doesn't prove anything.
1
As many readers have commented, an innocent or naive remark may be taken by a woman as sexual harassment and lead to the end of a male's career. Since our legal system empowers this type of opportunistic behavior, I would advise men to take Mike Pence as their example.
It is truly unfortunate that this syndrome then harms all the many women professionals in their career advancement. As happens so often, the few ruin it for the many.
It is truly unfortunate that this syndrome then harms all the many women professionals in their career advancement. As happens so often, the few ruin it for the many.
8
Are you really saying that men are all "innocent and naive" and it's the women taking these comments the wrong way? Are you really that naive yourself?
You, right here, are part of the problem. Men simply refuse to accept their responsibility at all.
You, right here, are part of the problem. Men simply refuse to accept their responsibility at all.
2
Tell me, Robert - when a man I don't know chooses to sit down next to me at a professional seminar, turns to me and, without introducing himself, asks, "How about if we blow this thing off and go to my hotel room?", is that an "innocent or naive remark"?
I would really like to know.
I would really like to know.
1
You are right, that is beyond the pale. No question. I have seen men lose their job for saying, "I like your outfit." Inappropriate perhaps, but career ending? You tell me where the line is.
Nothing new.
What society is finding out through trial and error, religions have known it all along.
Time and tested morality works best.
What society is finding out through trial and error, religions have known it all along.
Time and tested morality works best.
5
I'm surprised that anyone is truly surprised by this development. Anyone who works at a company of any size at all is subject to mandatory yearly sexual harassment training. While the specifics are nuanced, the general principle is that any kind of behavior that could even possibly be construed by another person as being improper is inappropriate work behavior. Anyone thinking that current American heavy handed training wouldn't have the effect seen in this study is being disingenuous.
6
I think for men, it's less about them not trusting their unwanted sexual urges, and more about the 'she said, he said' false, female accusation that overwhelmingly gives the female account benefit of the doubt. Besides, there are many ways to communicate now (Skype for starters) in person interaction is no longer as necessary. Thank God.
7
I think that is belied by the situations in which women have been asked by religious extremists to give up their airline seats because of the male's theoretical discomfort at the idea of being "tempted". A man's irrational fear should never be an impediment to anyone's career just as a woman's false claims should not ruin anyone's career.
Jon Morris - nobody ever believes the woman, even when other women accuse the same man of the same conduct. What world do you live in? Sounds like a fantasy world.
1
I have been a self employed free lancer in the adv/marketing business for about 30 years both married and single , I don't know how many meetings with men and women. Hundreds I assume, there was one time that there was some sort of potential for hanky panky. But not being a horn dog idiot nothing happened.
I guess if you put out some if irresistible pheromone then it could be an issue.
Or just grow up.
I guess if you put out some if irresistible pheromone then it could be an issue.
Or just grow up.
13
Well said. If someone is going to misbehave, all the strait-laced religion in the world isn't going to stop it.
3
This country is nuts about sex.
30
Back when I was a high school teacher (I'm male), the topic of sexual assault and harassment came up once in class. The female students in this class felt, almost unanimously, that the issue was a sort of zero-sum equation. If an accused man is "innocent until proven guilty", then the inverse would be that the accusation is false–the default position of the legal system, these students pointed out, is that women are lying about being victimized. And when one considers that these situations often come down to "he said-she said", the students explained, the result is that predatory men essentially have a carte blanche to harass and assault women with relatively little chance of ever being held accountable.
It is much more likely, the students continued, that in these situations the perpetrator (the man) would be lying than the victim (the woman). So for the crime of sexual assault and harassment against women, it is more reasonable/humane to take the position that the accused is guilty unless they can prove their innocence. My comment that this would violate a fundamental principle of our legal system was met with exasperation and the proclamation that I was supporting violence against women.
Every time after that a female student stopped by after school for extra help and no one else was around, I tried to offer that help from across the room (door open). It only made an awkward situation even more awkward.
It is much more likely, the students continued, that in these situations the perpetrator (the man) would be lying than the victim (the woman). So for the crime of sexual assault and harassment against women, it is more reasonable/humane to take the position that the accused is guilty unless they can prove their innocence. My comment that this would violate a fundamental principle of our legal system was met with exasperation and the proclamation that I was supporting violence against women.
Every time after that a female student stopped by after school for extra help and no one else was around, I tried to offer that help from across the room (door open). It only made an awkward situation even more awkward.
4
Hey teacher, fellow teacher here. Did your female students explain why it would be much less likely for someone to lie about being assaulted? I think the why is very important. Once you tell someone you've been raped you can't take it back. There's a lot of shame involved there and not wanting people to look at you differently. (that's without saying who did it) There will be people who blame you for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, for leading the guy on, for wearing the wrong thing, and on and on. People will blame you for someone else taking away your right to do with your body what you will. We also have a pervasive culture that says "boys will be boys" and that if he drinks and he does something he shouldn't, it's because he drank and he's not really responsible. There is very little incentive to pull that down on yourself pretending to be the victim. It's taking on a scarlet letter and getting people angry at you. I'm not saying no one has ever lied about it, but considering the storm you bring down on yourself, it's hardly worth it.
Hi Kassie,
Thank you for the response. For the record, I agreed with my students that it is much more likely the woman in these situations is telling the truth, for the reasons you enumerated above. I recognize that this is the reality many women face when coming forward.
The point I was trying to make with my comment was the inherent (unresolvable?) tension between wanting to accept the accusation at face value and support–not shame–women who have been victimized, encouraging them to come forward and press charges, while at the same time respecting due process and not ruining the life/reputation/career of someone who *may* (and I understand that these cases are much more rare) be innocent by convicting them based solely on an accusation.
What bothered me about the anecdote I shared was the willingness on the part of my students to just throw due process out the window, and accuse me of not supporting women just because I thought it was important to try and balance the rights of the accused with the (very real, very important) need to support women who have been victimized.
One unfortunate outcome of the work being done around this issue has been many men left feeling paranoid around any professional interaction with women. As someone whose job it is to work closely with young men and women every day, the fear of losing your entire career over a single misunderstanding or false accusation is constant, and very real.
Thank you for the response. For the record, I agreed with my students that it is much more likely the woman in these situations is telling the truth, for the reasons you enumerated above. I recognize that this is the reality many women face when coming forward.
The point I was trying to make with my comment was the inherent (unresolvable?) tension between wanting to accept the accusation at face value and support–not shame–women who have been victimized, encouraging them to come forward and press charges, while at the same time respecting due process and not ruining the life/reputation/career of someone who *may* (and I understand that these cases are much more rare) be innocent by convicting them based solely on an accusation.
What bothered me about the anecdote I shared was the willingness on the part of my students to just throw due process out the window, and accuse me of not supporting women just because I thought it was important to try and balance the rights of the accused with the (very real, very important) need to support women who have been victimized.
One unfortunate outcome of the work being done around this issue has been many men left feeling paranoid around any professional interaction with women. As someone whose job it is to work closely with young men and women every day, the fear of losing your entire career over a single misunderstanding or false accusation is constant, and very real.
I find these statistics appalling. Did the researchers survey anyone who lives in an urban area? And what, precisely, do these people want - the return to a Medieval or religious fundamentalist society in which the sexes are separated, and where unmarried women are hidden away in convents?
14
Stephanie 2022: I know really! The question is what to do with them. I can't believe they were allowed to pass High School, with such a poor skill-set. Wait till they learn where the chicken and egg come from. Plus, about the deer they hunt. Not on my Resume! I did not pass them to the next Grade.
Yikes! The Puritans are rolling over in their graves!
That Mike Pence sees every woman as a temptress should shed light on his own immaturity, and his poor regard of women. (Lord knows his boss is immature, with that boxing tweet this morning.)
BTW, if you're afraid to be alone in a room with someone of the opposite sex, that speaks volumes on your view of LGBT people.
That Mike Pence sees every woman as a temptress should shed light on his own immaturity, and his poor regard of women. (Lord knows his boss is immature, with that boxing tweet this morning.)
BTW, if you're afraid to be alone in a room with someone of the opposite sex, that speaks volumes on your view of LGBT people.
9
Now I'm really curious: Would Mike Pence refuse to have a private dinner with a gay man?
How about a Lesbian?
How about a hermaphrodite?
How about a natural-born eunuch?
Or is it just "females" that he won't associate with?
And why would I possibly care what Mike Pence does?
He has no problem with anything that Trump has ever done - doesn't that say it all about Mike Pence?
How about a Lesbian?
How about a hermaphrodite?
How about a natural-born eunuch?
Or is it just "females" that he won't associate with?
And why would I possibly care what Mike Pence does?
He has no problem with anything that Trump has ever done - doesn't that say it all about Mike Pence?
25
Pence would not meet with any of them because he thinks they're 'icky.'
1
But, Dan, Pence swears he is a Christian ABOVE ALL ELSE. He must be aware of Matthew 19:12 where Jesus specifically speaks of eunuchs. "For there are some eunuchs which were so born from their mother's wombs; and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and then there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." The first mentioned are the naturally born ones; the second are the castrated war-captives, and the last are those who castrate themselves to be "pure". The three classes are the ladder rungs of Christian Value: the anatomical (bottom rung); the sociological (middle rung); and the theological (the top, bestest rung of all). Surely Pence, as a good Christian, would have no problem having a private dinner with the first category - right? Even Jesus never had a problem with any of them. Someone should ask him.
1
I suppose when "the opposite sex" is Pence's boss, he will not have developed the skill-set to handle a one-on-one conversation with his boss. Oh well. I am sure there are a lot of people who have graduated beyond, skirts and pants. I can easily see Mike Pence in a Streets-of-Yesteryear exhibit at COSI in Columbus Ohio. ----- To myself, I say: Oh, so that's what the kids who don't do well in School are "stuck-on". They can't Advance above "skirts and pants".
5
If your life is so complicated that you have to worry about this stuff, then I'm glad I'm not you.
8
Great. More sex for the rest of us who aren't afraid.
4
Pence associated himself with a potty-mouthed so-called president and never uttered a word. I suspect Pence has one standard for men and another for women.
27
Yet more evidence of how America is a land of emotionally stunted juveniles.
23
No Mike, it is a land of extremes....one side headed by frat boy guys like Trump and the other side led by identity obsessed women must rule the country like Hillary.
Get rid of both sides if you want to advance society.
Get rid of both sides if you want to advance society.
2
Temptation is always a factor? Really, no wonder folks get triggered all the time. Limited life experience, travel, education, bla, bla, bla...I don't identify with this at all. Where do these people come from? NO ONE in the circles I run with have this sort of nonsense banging around their head. Good grief! No wonder we have a POTUS who has no, or used to have no compunction about grabbing women by their genitals.
9
What the heck is wrong with these people?!
14
A somewhat different topic, but I would like to serve as a public school substitute teacher in STEM subjects in my retirement, but would never do so because of the risk of being sued for saying the wrong thing to a student, or god forbid, touching them on the shoulder or arm by mistake. So I teach college as an adjunct instead, where fewer people are uptight and looking to ruin someone's life and get rich off of lawsuits.
4
This all so juvenile. When I was young and in my first real real relationship with a man, I worried about every glance he shot at another woman. I tortured myself with thoughts about "what if." After almost thirty years of marriage to a man who works with more women than men, travels with women, and has woman friends (who are not my friends), I have learned that you have to trust your partner. Full stop. If a person wants to engage in extramarital relationships, they will find a way to do it. Keeping one's spouse on a tight leash and requiring that he be chaperoned when in close contact with another woman? That is disrespectful. If you don't trust and respect your partner, why stay with him?
45
This entire article, and the data/graphs being referenced, makes the huge (and wrong) assumption that everyone is heterosexual. No?
9
What?? Hopefully people can trust themselves and others enough to have professional working relationships with people of the opposite sex. Doesn't it come down to the character of the people involved? There are always some people one may not feel comfortable being alone with (regardless of their sex) and others you would feel fine with - to categorically say you can't be alone with an entire sex is unfortunate (and in fact a form of prejudice).
I think the judgements by Mike Pence, and the evangelical and lower educated sample sets in the article, reflect more about how they view the world rather them than some universal condition we all face.
I think the judgements by Mike Pence, and the evangelical and lower educated sample sets in the article, reflect more about how they view the world rather them than some universal condition we all face.
8
Well said! Mature people . . .
I am gay male. I feel so sorry for heterosexuals that have to live a life of limited opposite sex connections. I can go out anywhere with my female lesbian friends. Plus I can go out with my female heterosexual friend anywhere. Single or married. I am much more sympathetic and understanding of what women go through because of my unlimited contact with women. One of the reasons we have so much problems with misogyny is that heterosexual men have limited real contact with women beside family members or wives. This limited contact makes heterosexual men less knowledgeable of about what women are feeling. Most heterosexual men only care about their wives or women in their families. Instead of caring about all women and understanding what they go through. Heterosexuals need to work on this. Yes I know some gay men are misogynistic. But my unlimited connection with women my whole life make me not one of them.
13
Let's face it. Gay or straight -- all those who see themselves defined by, or limited to, their sexuality are ultimately going to come up with the short end of the stick.
2
So Mike Pence isn't that crazy after all. Still, it's one thing to be uncomfortable with persons of the opposite sex, it's another to rule it out completely, as the VP has done. That's not just caution or discomfort, that's bizarre behavior.
5
When someone can make hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollar by falsely accusing someone of sexual harassment/assault (the Derrick Rose case is an apt and recent example) then it would be reckless for a man to meet with a student or colleague or subordinate one on one with nobody else present.
8
If it were not a problem people wouldn't be nervous.
2
It's hilarious that some people feel that limiting your opposite-sex friendships or socializing to the spouses of friends represents Christian values. How many married Christians have had sex with the spouses of friends? I'd say many!
It comes down to what we learned as toddlers. Keep your hands and other body parts) to yourself!
It comes down to what we learned as toddlers. Keep your hands and other body parts) to yourself!
5
Really? As a female engineer, if I didn't meet alone with men, I would not have meetings- for all of my career my co-workers have been mostly men. This Taliban attitude reduces women to roles defined by their sex, not by their capabilities.
13
Since men are pretty much considered beasts that can't manage to keep their pants on, it's risky business going mano-a-mano with the girl down the hall. Especially with the door shut. Granted, there are real "pigs" out there. But what about the guy who's not? It's a real conflict of interest that at worst provides the opportunity for blackmail, and at best is open to interpretation. But what do I know--- I'm just another crazed misogynist.
2
Huh? What world do you live in? Blackmail? Given your post, it is probably wisest that you keep your doors wide open at all times. That "girl down the hall" is likely a woman, not a girl, who would just as soon avoid you, too.
Todd - you would be amazed at how many "nice guys" are pigs.
I guess there is no such thing as blackmail in Wonderland is there Alyce?
Those who believe one-on-one meetings with someone of the opposite gender are inappropriate are missing out on one of life's most valuable experiences: genuine friendship between a man and a woman, with nothing sexual in mind. I've had many such relationships, and they've been deeply rewarding, both intellectually and emotionally.
7
For employers, this issue is defined almost entirely by liability. An employer is liable if sexual harrassment happens any time during the workday.
The one time my business was sued it was by a women who accused her supervisor of trying to rape her when they were working alone together. Even thought the rape accusation was determined to be false by the prosecutor, it did not stop the accuser from filing suit against my business under EEOC law.
The only possible defense for a business is to create an environment where one-on-one, he-said-she-said situations are avoided as much as possible. Of course no policies are written -- that would be illegal. So we have glass walls, group office spaces, and team meetings instead of one-on-one.
Have workplace laws reduced the incidence of sexual harrassment? Almost certainly. Have they eliminated it? Of course not. Unfortunately, there are unintended consequences of draconian legal measures. They always are.
The one time my business was sued it was by a women who accused her supervisor of trying to rape her when they were working alone together. Even thought the rape accusation was determined to be false by the prosecutor, it did not stop the accuser from filing suit against my business under EEOC law.
The only possible defense for a business is to create an environment where one-on-one, he-said-she-said situations are avoided as much as possible. Of course no policies are written -- that would be illegal. So we have glass walls, group office spaces, and team meetings instead of one-on-one.
Have workplace laws reduced the incidence of sexual harrassment? Almost certainly. Have they eliminated it? Of course not. Unfortunately, there are unintended consequences of draconian legal measures. They always are.
4
I am a German Scientist, living and working in California. When I was a postdoc at Stanford University, I had a summer intern. She was a young, smart and very motivated girl from High School and it could have been a real joy to teach her if it wasn't for the official rule that I was not allowed to be with her alone in a room. We looked at each other and couldn't believe the stupidity of this rule. How were we supposed to enforce it? If everyone else in the lab leaves for lunch, I would have to leave her alone because I'm not allowed to be in the same room? And I'm not even talking about the very uncomfortable feeling that some official tink they have to protect a minor from me.
If the fundamental process of teaching is already sexualized and thus regulated in that way, I'm not surprised about the article. We need to learn to trust each other again if this is to be a fair and equal society.
If the fundamental process of teaching is already sexualized and thus regulated in that way, I'm not surprised about the article. We need to learn to trust each other again if this is to be a fair and equal society.
4
A lawyer that I retained in a family law matter swiped my palm with his finger as I joined a meeting with him and my then teenage son. He laughed when I made a facial reaction. As that had never happened to me I asked some friends and they confirmed that is a way to signal a sexual advance. To have to say it was inappropriate and unwanted is part of the humiliation. The entire experience with the lawyer was traumatizing.
A part of all the sexual dysfunction in our culture, I believe, is rooted in absurd religious teachings. It is harmful because too many people don't know how to have a healthy relationship with others. And as my experience with the lawyer shows, it is used by the powerful in inappropriate and harmful ways.
A part of all the sexual dysfunction in our culture, I believe, is rooted in absurd religious teachings. It is harmful because too many people don't know how to have a healthy relationship with others. And as my experience with the lawyer shows, it is used by the powerful in inappropriate and harmful ways.
5
Some of my best friends were the men I worked with. We traveled together, worked late together, had drinks and dinner and long conversations together.
Almost all were married and the rest in relationships. I would never consider crossing that line and they didn't either. No one should have to take "special caution" working.
Men who think that women claiming harassment are just using it as a "card" in their deck when things aren't going their way, should examine their relationships with a professional.
Almost all were married and the rest in relationships. I would never consider crossing that line and they didn't either. No one should have to take "special caution" working.
Men who think that women claiming harassment are just using it as a "card" in their deck when things aren't going their way, should examine their relationships with a professional.
6
You bet. Me, too. Mature, confident, well-socialized human beings know how to behave in all settings.
1
It is a huge disservice to women to limit the interaction between them and men when it is related to work. People should not have a barrier to any meeting with someone of the opposite sex that they would not have with someone of the same sex.
Talk of temptation is absurd. If you can't control yourself around someone of the opposite sex, the problem is not your work environment. If one person takes advantage of the other, that is a work environment problem that must be addressed.
Men need to respect women. Men need to understand that women might feel uncomfortable being alone with them. Men need to demonstrate through their actions that there is nothing to be concerned about.
Anything less is harmful to all of us and women especially.
Talk of temptation is absurd. If you can't control yourself around someone of the opposite sex, the problem is not your work environment. If one person takes advantage of the other, that is a work environment problem that must be addressed.
Men need to respect women. Men need to understand that women might feel uncomfortable being alone with them. Men need to demonstrate through their actions that there is nothing to be concerned about.
Anything less is harmful to all of us and women especially.
4
What a bunch of nonsense. The world has gone PC crazy or in "litigation avoidance" mode. I sold engineering consulting services for yeas and took many female clients or prospective clients to breakfast or lunches alone. The basic reason is the time available factor to schedule a face to face meeting.
It comes down to adults acting like adults and being respectful of all. People must now feel that they can't control themselves. Unbelievable !
It comes down to adults acting like adults and being respectful of all. People must now feel that they can't control themselves. Unbelievable !
6
What a sad state of affairs. This article saddened me that in this day and age people are so concerned about being with the opposite sex. Perhaps it's my age (60++) but I couldn't care less about gender or ethnicity or age or social status. i am free to spend time with who I want, thank you very much!
5
What does any of this have to do with women being treated equally or unequally? The answer is nothing because women aren't treated unequally.
These are simple observations about people - all people - taking care to respect their own intimate pair bond while they are outside the home. And good for them for caring about the people they love.
Did you see the result of the Australian government's experiment where gender was hidden from prospective employers prior to making hiring decisions? Female hiring rates plummeted. Maybe men really do just work a bit harder and that's why they get promoted more.
These are simple observations about people - all people - taking care to respect their own intimate pair bond while they are outside the home. And good for them for caring about the people they love.
Did you see the result of the Australian government's experiment where gender was hidden from prospective employers prior to making hiring decisions? Female hiring rates plummeted. Maybe men really do just work a bit harder and that's why they get promoted more.
3
I am astonished by this. throughout my entire life I have had male platonic friends. I was in an industry for 40 that was predominantly male. meetings, trips, drinks, dinners were often with male business associates, one on one. I never thought twice about it. I never had an harassment issue.....I attained quite a high management status at a major US corporation. If I had shied away from these encounters I would never have achieved the status I did....my significant others never had an issue with this either.
6
So many people lack self-control or do not think they have self-control. Perhaps, that is the real problem. I wonder if the women responding are speaking about themselves or about their husbands.
3
There is another reason that people, especially women, may be reluctant to have drinks or meals with colleagues of the opposite sex - fear of office gossip, which can be vicious. The less-evolved use their selfish behavior to force everyone else down to their level.
1
Ultimately this issue turns on two questions: 1) how much do you trust yourself to act appropriately in social settings; 2) what kind of society do you want to live in?
In your private life you are free to work out guidelines with your significant other (if you have one). In work settings, the paranoid sexual segregation suggested here will hurt women, companies, and eventually men (in that order alas).
In a reactionary era like this one (using that adjective descriptively not politically), this sort of meme has a greater chance of becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.
In your private life you are free to work out guidelines with your significant other (if you have one). In work settings, the paranoid sexual segregation suggested here will hurt women, companies, and eventually men (in that order alas).
In a reactionary era like this one (using that adjective descriptively not politically), this sort of meme has a greater chance of becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.
3
This is sad but true according to the reporting in this story, but I think it is possible to do business during office hours without having lunch, drinks or dinner which waste time. Why not just have a business meeting and do the work at hand.
What is all this sexual innuendo about anyway???
What is all this sexual innuendo about anyway???
1
This is pure nonsense, the dregs of a puritanical society. I was once groped in an elevator by a colleague, totally out of the blue. I was propositioned by another who offered to drive me home. So now I'm supposed to have a buddy wherever I go? How about we teach men not to sexually harass their coworkers? These complaints of false accusations are red herrings. Just ask the women of Uber how successful they were with their claims of real, documented harassment, then tell me how every man fears a false claim. Why not body cams? At least then, women can get their work done.
5
Exactly!
Reading this article - and many like it - I have the same responses - that this is a problem for women only because of how men are raised to think and act. And it sure seems the preponderance of men who believe being alone with a women is problematic fall into the less educated / rural / religious categories. Its not that far a leap from this to how women in the Middle East have to cover up, etc.
Reading this article - and many like it - I have the same responses - that this is a problem for women only because of how men are raised to think and act. And it sure seems the preponderance of men who believe being alone with a women is problematic fall into the less educated / rural / religious categories. Its not that far a leap from this to how women in the Middle East have to cover up, etc.
1
Better home training for men would be a start. Mature, confident people don't behave this way.
2
"Do you have plans to get away this Fourth of July weekend?"
A mandatory course at my company taught that such a question from a man to a woman colleague or subordinate constitutes sexual harassment. Women may be rightfully worried about predatory men at work, but men are worried about having the most innocent friendly remark drag them into a career-ending appearance before the guardians of purity.
A mandatory course at my company taught that such a question from a man to a woman colleague or subordinate constitutes sexual harassment. Women may be rightfully worried about predatory men at work, but men are worried about having the most innocent friendly remark drag them into a career-ending appearance before the guardians of purity.
8
Unbelievably neanderthal thinking. In 37 years, I never once thought of my female collegues as anything other than competent colleagues doing their job. I have had drinks, been in cars, had lunch and dinner, and never thought, hey, let's get physical. At the end of the day and of the week, I went home to my wife and later to my kids.
3
Sounds like a good reason to hire more LGBTQ people.
1
The best thing to do is to evolve human beings as non-gendered.
2
Mean can't control themselves, so men try to punish women.
One of those lightweight articles that seem to appear during the summer news doldrums. A diversion from watching President Trump attacking wrestling mogul Vince McMahon or arguing with the hosts of "Morning Joe".
So, Mike Pence said 15 years ago that he would not have dinner alone with a lady who was not his wife. I cannot imagine that that has been a problem for the womenfolk of America.
So, Mike Pence said 15 years ago that he would not have dinner alone with a lady who was not his wife. I cannot imagine that that has been a problem for the womenfolk of America.
4
Actually, there are plenty of people who are comfortable, one on one, with friends, not lovers, of the opposite sex.
There are also plenty of married people who are comfortable being alone with their spouse even when not having sex. These are people who consider their spouse as a good friend and not just a spouse.
I could not put a number on it, a percentage. I have noticed among my baby boomer friends that the ones who are comfortable with friends of the opposite sex also have long lasting marriages or common law marriages.
There are also plenty of married people who are comfortable being alone with their spouse even when not having sex. These are people who consider their spouse as a good friend and not just a spouse.
I could not put a number on it, a percentage. I have noticed among my baby boomer friends that the ones who are comfortable with friends of the opposite sex also have long lasting marriages or common law marriages.
4
I'm an independent 40 something from California and think it's ridiculous the backlash that Pence has received regarding this issue. People should respect the boundaries he has established for HIS marriage. It's not archaic, but rather respectful even if you don't agree with it. If more marriages had boundaries when interacting with the members of opposite sex there would be less divorces and broken families. I do agree that it would be difficult to avoid being in a work meeting with a member of the opposite sex if your job calls for it though.
2
I am simply flabbergasted by this article, by this portrait of the USA today ....... it confirms for me that I made the right decision in leaving to live the life of an expat, in more than one country, 18 years ago
5
This is really strange to me. In the 1970's and 1980's when I was first a law clerk (actually the first female non secretary in the section) and later a trial attorney with the US Dept of Justice tax division, and in my 20's and early 30's, I often traveled with other attorneys in my section. Not one was ever an issue and I never felt the slightest bit uncomfortable with any of them - whether they were married or, as was the case back then, mostly single, like I was. My section chief did make a foolish remark once and an assistant chief was somewhat of a problem, probably because he also had a drinking problem. But other than that, nothing....and the women attorneys (very few of us back then) did talk to each other - and I never heard that any of them had problems. What year is it anyway? Is this not the 21st century? Sounds more like medieval times.
4
Given the potential for many women to find so much offense in so little, as well as to invent events that did not happen in order to harm men, it is perfectly legitimate for men to avoid situations which could lead to misinterpretation or spurious complaints. It is not all about protecting women, or about Puritanical standards.
8
Perhaps you should have qualified this statement: "Many men and women are wary of a range of one-on-one situations, the poll found."
It could have read that "Many American men and women are wary of a range of one-on-one situations..."
It could have read that "Many American men and women are wary of a range of one-on-one situations..."
4
The headline is: It’s Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone With the Opposite Sex.
I grew up in several European countries and I must say that the culture existing between the opposite sexes here in the US is strange, to say the least.
For example, most of my friends there were female. I would meet them for coffee, go to the movies with them, even if they were in a relationship, and there was never any chance that there would be any misunderstanding of any kind. Being friends with a woman who was in a relationship was natural.
Here in the US this does not exist. You want to meet someone one-on-one, it is a big deal, a "date". I cannot imagine that I could ask a woman out to see a movie without this being interpreted as an attempt to start a relationship.
It is very weird.
As to being careful with women at work in this situation, yes, I agree, every interaction can potentially be interpreted as an attempt to "hit" on someone, if one mentions one single thing that is not related to work, so one is extremely careful to avoid any suggestion of a perception that anything outside of strict work-related matters is being discussed. Everything else can be labeled "unprofessional". One such accusation can ruin your life permanently in the US.
This of course makes any interactions at work stiff and unnatural compared to a work environment outside of the US.
Interesting, here in NYC I work with many individuals who are not from here, who are from all over the world. The relationships with them are more relaxed, but that also depends on where they are from.
For example, most of my friends there were female. I would meet them for coffee, go to the movies with them, even if they were in a relationship, and there was never any chance that there would be any misunderstanding of any kind. Being friends with a woman who was in a relationship was natural.
Here in the US this does not exist. You want to meet someone one-on-one, it is a big deal, a "date". I cannot imagine that I could ask a woman out to see a movie without this being interpreted as an attempt to start a relationship.
It is very weird.
As to being careful with women at work in this situation, yes, I agree, every interaction can potentially be interpreted as an attempt to "hit" on someone, if one mentions one single thing that is not related to work, so one is extremely careful to avoid any suggestion of a perception that anything outside of strict work-related matters is being discussed. Everything else can be labeled "unprofessional". One such accusation can ruin your life permanently in the US.
This of course makes any interactions at work stiff and unnatural compared to a work environment outside of the US.
Interesting, here in NYC I work with many individuals who are not from here, who are from all over the world. The relationships with them are more relaxed, but that also depends on where they are from.
19
I have never worked in NYC. I have worked in Poughkeepsie, NY, and in California. I have been on business trips in various states and had dinner with a co-worker that was about work and friendship and not a date or being hit on. I have also been hit on by married co-workers when I was young. However, the hit on incidents were rare compared to the friendship ones. Now do not take this personally, but is it NYC?
3
I totally subscribe to this comment. I am an Italian woman, who lived and worked for years in Germany and France and the US. I the US you have to be cautious: meeting one on one with colleagues of the opposite sex is pretty likely to damage your career, regardless of anyone's marital state.
The US is a deeply puritanic country where even a doctor cannot see you naked and a masseuse never massages a woman's butt or belly.
Europe is a completely different culture. This said, with the notable exception of the Scandinavian countries, I would make the case that women's rights are better established in the costal states of the US than in most European countries. This would, of course, take more space than this comment.
The US is a deeply puritanic country where even a doctor cannot see you naked and a masseuse never massages a woman's butt or belly.
Europe is a completely different culture. This said, with the notable exception of the Scandinavian countries, I would make the case that women's rights are better established in the costal states of the US than in most European countries. This would, of course, take more space than this comment.
3
Well, Carol, since you are asking, I work and live in NYC.
My business partner is a man, married, and I am a woman, single, and in our 14 years of working together, just the two of us have worked, had drinks, had dinner, drove in a car, and traveled to conferences in other states and never once was there any issue because we have mutual respect for one another. The bonds of marriage (or my fidelity to my partner) do not even come into play because there is no issue, it comes down to respect. It is incredible to me that a man or a woman thinks they would/should be tempted in any circumstance just because they are alone together. Have I been harassed, yes, and as recently as last week when I was alone with a former male employee, who tried to push beyond established work relationship boundaries. As uncomfortable as it was I also held my ground and will not let it happen again. But to make a blanket statement of not being alone with the opposite sex is truly incredible and takes away any credit for the many more men and women who have mutual respect for one another as opposed to the few who have not evolved. The only way we are going to evolve as a society is to have more positive (work or otherwise) interactions that are not segregated by gender.
14
I miss the '70s.
6
As a woman who was the target of blatant, unrepentant sexual harassment and discrimination in the 1970s, I do not miss that time at all.
How sad. How can men and women ever get equal treatment if even a one on one business meeting is viewed as objectionable by some.
What I find particularly alarming is the statement by Kathleen Raven that "Women are taught to believe we equals while we’re growing up, and that’s not a good message, ...We have to make a lot of efforts to protect ourselves."
It's not a good message that we are taught to be equals while growing up ?! Moreover, the statement appears to propel women into a state of victimhood.
Equality can never be achieved as long as one side is taught that they are and will be victims. Having a special need for protection cannot co-exist with equality.
In business, one on one meetings at the workplace occur continuously. They are between co-workers, or a supervisor and a subordinate, who sometimes just happen to be of a different gender. This article seems to focus on the gender factor as if it overrides normal and necessary business practices.
What about business trips which are essential and happen to involve a man and a woman traveling together?
I recall a policy adopted by a major company in the 60s which forbid men and women to take business trips together, because people might "talk". This policy of course served only to perpetuate what was then a serious inequality between genders. Have our societal attitudes regressed to the point where
the most normal- and essential - business conduct is now viewed with suspicion and apprehension ?
What I find particularly alarming is the statement by Kathleen Raven that "Women are taught to believe we equals while we’re growing up, and that’s not a good message, ...We have to make a lot of efforts to protect ourselves."
It's not a good message that we are taught to be equals while growing up ?! Moreover, the statement appears to propel women into a state of victimhood.
Equality can never be achieved as long as one side is taught that they are and will be victims. Having a special need for protection cannot co-exist with equality.
In business, one on one meetings at the workplace occur continuously. They are between co-workers, or a supervisor and a subordinate, who sometimes just happen to be of a different gender. This article seems to focus on the gender factor as if it overrides normal and necessary business practices.
What about business trips which are essential and happen to involve a man and a woman traveling together?
I recall a policy adopted by a major company in the 60s which forbid men and women to take business trips together, because people might "talk". This policy of course served only to perpetuate what was then a serious inequality between genders. Have our societal attitudes regressed to the point where
the most normal- and essential - business conduct is now viewed with suspicion and apprehension ?
5
I am probably not much of a physical threat to most males, but in every other way I am equal - or superior - to the male gender. I know very few men who measure up. My parents didn't raise four daughters and two sons to be wussies - and we're all babyboomers, born LONG before women's lib blah blah blah. Men who have balls aren't afraid to go toe to toe with a female outside of the boxing ring. I would think they'd WANT to be constantly engaged by an intelligent, witty, funny and sexy female. Geez - give me French men, please!
1
"Equality can never be achieved as long as one side is taught that they are and will be victims". Actually, equality can never be achieved as long as one side continues to abuse the other. You speak as though women are either pretending at or overreacting to pervasive sexual harassment at work rather than protecting ourselves from the reality of it. Fix predatory sexual behavior, and there would be no need for self-protective actions.
Fear of harassment and fear of being charged with harassment are both potent forces in today's world. Interacting with females is a career risk in many professions. I don't know of any way to get reliable data but given the rules of evidence just about any make can expect at least one problematic encounter in a career. I anticipate a fair amount of gender based segregation in the workplace. Career professional males are one accusation away from a career terminating experience, and they are starting to understand this. I don;'t know what the long term impacts of these fears on both sides will be. I predict that K-12 education will be an all female profession eventually.
17
I know a lot of professional men, including co-workers. I can only think of one who had a problem in this manner, and it sounded like his behavior contributed to it. If you're behaving like a normal person, you shouldn't need gender-based segregation.
2
Perhaps if people didn't behave poorly they wouldn't have to be afraid of accusations. Ever been on the receiving end of sexual harassment at work? It's really quite unpleasant.
It is very discouraging to see that so many people's thinking is completely backwards and repressed. How many of the respondents work in a professional/science world? There is absolutely no way for me to do my job if I do not have one-on-one meetings with other people from time to time. With women or men, whoever is the best person to work on the particular problem with me. The meeting can take hours, and in the middle of it, horrors, we may go and grab a cup of coffee together. Or have lunch together. No thought of impropriety of this has ever crossed my mind. Been happily married for many years, and my workplace interactions were never a problem for my husband. While on rare business trips, had dinner/driven in a car/had a drink with both women and men from work, the interactions were professional and friendly. Just feels like I live in a different universe from the fearful majority.
23
See, there's the problem right there. It's 'GET' a cup of coffee.
Careful with that 'grab' talk mister.
Careful with that 'grab' talk mister.
SeEKer - has it ever occurred to you that the men with whom you interact at work don't sexually harass you because they know you are married and they don't want to interfere with another man's property?
The survey shows that better educated people have no problem with gender in the workplace and a few respondents said it would be nearly impossible to do their jobs without the freedom to have one-on one meetings with members of the opposite sex. As a lawyer, I am ethically required to meet potential and actual clients in private to protect their secrets under the attorney-client privilege and, of course, I meet frequently with opposing counsel on business at lunch or over coffee at a cafe. Employers can help by adopting written policies prohibiting sexual harassment in the workplace and strictly enforcing those policies. But they shoild not prohibit one-on-one meetings with co-workers, customers and the like. I think most people would agree that it is unwise for co-workers to become romantically involved, even if they are single. Work and sex simply do not mix under any circumstances.
9
This begs the question-- where can one legitimately meet potential romantic partners? Even a country such as France which is so erroneously associated with entrenched eroticism is clamping down on sexual harrassment in urban public transport systems. Frenchwomen are utterly fed up with the stares and catcalls they endure during a banal ride on the Métro or train. I am sure that this leads to an understandable chilling effect out of authentic fear of legal persecution. So the danger zones are not limited to the workplace, they are today virtually everywhere outside of home and hearth. Only the most foolish man would scoff at the Bill Cosby phenomenon. One can never be too careful in today's world.
In my grandmother's day, she was born in 1901, this poll would have been almost 100% against ALL of the categories.
My mother was born in 1923. Ditto.
Ditto for me born in 1948.
But I note that only "women" get an "age breakdown", and that their graph is the only one that does, specific to them. Ditto for "religion". There's no breakdown for age or sex and it turns out there were no questions on marital status or sexual orientation. Hinky.
This is a bad poll.
Go back and do it again.
My mother was born in 1923. Ditto.
Ditto for me born in 1948.
But I note that only "women" get an "age breakdown", and that their graph is the only one that does, specific to them. Ditto for "religion". There's no breakdown for age or sex and it turns out there were no questions on marital status or sexual orientation. Hinky.
This is a bad poll.
Go back and do it again.
11
Good observations.
3
I'm glad to hear many Americans have not completely lost their minds and still recognize that sex and sexual urges are a fact of life. It makes perfect sense to be aware and conscious of the issues that might arise depending on the situation. I may not be attracted to my colleague who I like and admire professionally in the normal office setting, but maybe after a drink or two or dinner a business trip etc. I may find her very attractive indeed. Even if nothing happens our entire work dynamic can be affected. People are wired a certain way and sex is a big part of it. Denying it in the name of some ideal is just naïve.
Speaking for myself, I am a happily married man and nevertheless would not have a one on one drink or dinner with any woman other my wife. Why create a situation where things might go wrong? Why create a situation that might upset my wife? If there is something work-related i need to discuss with a female colleague, I will do it during work hours, at work. That's how I roll.
Speaking for myself, I am a happily married man and nevertheless would not have a one on one drink or dinner with any woman other my wife. Why create a situation where things might go wrong? Why create a situation that might upset my wife? If there is something work-related i need to discuss with a female colleague, I will do it during work hours, at work. That's how I roll.
27
Robert, you do what you need to do, but do you see the error in you reasoning? You assume that your female colleague (and by extension other women like her) would naturally be as into you as you are (somewhere deep in your unexpressed desires) are into her. You assume that she wants it, in other words. Please shut that line of thinking right down. Now.
1
If you're not a cheater, nothing should go wrong and your wife shouldn't be upset. My husband has had dinner with a female friend/former co-worker, and none of us have had a problem as a result.
Would your wife be OK with you having a one-on-one drink with a gay man? After all, things might go wrong.
Would your wife be OK with you having a one-on-one drink with a gay man? After all, things might go wrong.
2
I think it is the people who cannot conduct themselves appropriately who have lost their minds. Why can't they have a business meeting or lunch with colleague without thinking about sex?
1
What if you're single?????
I've been single almost my entire life and I think it's absurd that men refuse to do business with me the way they would with another man, due to this type of bizarre thought process.
Are they really that unable to control themselves, that untrusting of their spouses and their spouses that untrusting of them???
Honestly.
I've been single almost my entire life and I think it's absurd that men refuse to do business with me the way they would with another man, due to this type of bizarre thought process.
Are they really that unable to control themselves, that untrusting of their spouses and their spouses that untrusting of them???
Honestly.
69
It's hardly that men cannot control themselves, or that their wives/etc cannot trust the men.............it is that there is always the risk that the other person will accuse the man of doing or saying something inappropriate, or even illegal. A false accusation, or misunderstanding, can ruin a person's career, life, and other relationships.
15
I wholeheartedly agree!
I too have been single most of my life.
I am also a consultant, and I have a business to run!
I cannot avoid having lunches and business meetings because of someone's untrusting, insecure, spouse.
If you can't trust your spouse, why are you with them?
We are all adults, and we should be conducting ourselves professionally.
Seriously.
I too have been single most of my life.
I am also a consultant, and I have a business to run!
I cannot avoid having lunches and business meetings because of someone's untrusting, insecure, spouse.
If you can't trust your spouse, why are you with them?
We are all adults, and we should be conducting ourselves professionally.
Seriously.
31
There's nothing bizarre about it and it has nothing to do with whether men can control themselves. It has to do with false accusations and misinterpreted comments and gestures.
But you knew that. It's easier to attack a straw man.
But you knew that. It's easier to attack a straw man.
1
This article reads like something from the Fifties. I've never heard of the polling company used, but it stretches the meaning of the description of 'polling' company. The question are so banal, and not related to anything.
What is happening to the Times that they would give Sunday space to such trivia?
What is happening to the Times that they would give Sunday space to such trivia?
28
It's true. Irreparable arm can be done when left with someone of the opposite sex. Just ask the dozens of Trump and Cosby victims.
I was a victim of sexual harassment as a young professional at a major entertainment company. I blew it off, as it was a remark not a physical encounter. Unless you know your co-worker extremely well, it's best not to take unnecessary chances on either side of the gender. Regardless, stay in public places and out of hotel rooms.
I was a victim of sexual harassment as a young professional at a major entertainment company. I blew it off, as it was a remark not a physical encounter. Unless you know your co-worker extremely well, it's best not to take unnecessary chances on either side of the gender. Regardless, stay in public places and out of hotel rooms.
6
Staying out of hotel rooms is a given, if the relationship is to remain strictly professional, if only because if lines are crossed the location muddies the question of consent.
1
We're still very Puritan in our thinking. Education is the only way to address inequality and we need to start when our kids are young.
12
It all comes down to our own self-control.
5
It also comes down to higher education.
4
Whether you are on either side of the aisle on this one, I can't believe the naivety here. Throughout my life, sexual innuendo has traversed. Social settings, work settings, no matter. Single or married, it persists. After an uncomfortable situation, I would tell myself, it's only this one time. There must have been a misunderstanding and it could never happen again. I was wrong and too generous to believe that humans are better than they really are. Both genders are always on a competitive streak. With so many insecure folks around, they're always on the quest of one-up manship (sorry). Caution is my motto. Even then, it gets hairy. My husband has had female associates getting too forward. We have broached this topic numerous times. We conclude avoidance is the best policy. Of course the drawback is the furthering of one's career and social circles. We live with it. I still ponder is it sexually ingrained behavior or really more about insecurity. If one feels accomplished and good about themselves, are you less likely to pursue the situations and the people therein who may be perceived to fill the voids?
4
WAKE UP WORLD.
We lump the range from brutal rape down to a single off color comment made into a single term "sexual harassment" and then attach very inconsistent but also very extreme consequences to violations.
The consequence is entirely predictable: Those in power (often men) are well advised to strongly (but non-explicitly) discriminate in all interactions by sex.
WAKE UP we are MANDATING glass ceiling behavior with this societal attitude.
My solution:
(1) Create bright red lines separating different kinds of behaviors with different consequences at different levels. (e.g. touching vs. talking) Thus a man can KNOW objectively a max risk level for a behavior.
(2) Using more clearly defined lines, create less severe, and more consistently applied consequences.
(3) As as society explicitly ACCEPT that does and always will occur, it is to be controlled, minimized, but no attempt is made to ELIMINATE it.
Point #3 really gets me into great trouble with many. They do not want to accept the absolute necessity of accepting #3, but I believe we must.
One cannot excise 100% of this (damaging) aspect of humans but leave all else intact, any more than one could create a playground for children that 100% eliminated bullying.
I don't mean to stop striving for a healthier land with less harassment. Only that we need to be smarter, with more consistent, less severe consequences (which do progress to great severity for repeated violations.)
We lump the range from brutal rape down to a single off color comment made into a single term "sexual harassment" and then attach very inconsistent but also very extreme consequences to violations.
The consequence is entirely predictable: Those in power (often men) are well advised to strongly (but non-explicitly) discriminate in all interactions by sex.
WAKE UP we are MANDATING glass ceiling behavior with this societal attitude.
My solution:
(1) Create bright red lines separating different kinds of behaviors with different consequences at different levels. (e.g. touching vs. talking) Thus a man can KNOW objectively a max risk level for a behavior.
(2) Using more clearly defined lines, create less severe, and more consistently applied consequences.
(3) As as society explicitly ACCEPT that does and always will occur, it is to be controlled, minimized, but no attempt is made to ELIMINATE it.
Point #3 really gets me into great trouble with many. They do not want to accept the absolute necessity of accepting #3, but I believe we must.
One cannot excise 100% of this (damaging) aspect of humans but leave all else intact, any more than one could create a playground for children that 100% eliminated bullying.
I don't mean to stop striving for a healthier land with less harassment. Only that we need to be smarter, with more consistent, less severe consequences (which do progress to great severity for repeated violations.)
7
Wow as a European this sounds like a story from Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. Men and women don´t mingle and they are afraid of each other ? Religion is the problem here, also a reason why Americans are so prudish ( e.g. naked beaches or being naked in a sauna). I would never think that is tis a problem to meet a female colleague at work, in a restaurant or at the gym. I socialize with girlfriends and wives of colleagues and they would never think that is weird or strange. The US is light years behind and it won´t get better under Trump. Sad !
76
As a Canadian, I wholeheartedly agree. Stories like this are a striking reminder of how in many ways the US is fundamentally different from the rest of the western world and how present that Puritan history is still manifest.
5
What does sexual harassment have to do with Puritanism? Are you saying that American men are all hung up on sex or sexually deprived because American women are not accommodating enough to their sexual urges? America is a nation of male sex-obsessives and sex addicts - it has nothing to do with "Puritanism."
The glass ceiling just got thicker. This guarantees that men will do everything in their power to suppress women's advancement. This way their peers will be men who they can identify with and don't have to worry about being behind closed doors with all this nonesense or risk being sued for harassment. Feminism has backfired.
10
Feminism has backfired? How? Did I miss the memo that feminists support sexual harassment at work or gender segregation?
"Feminism" hasn't backfired. Men simply refuse to give up their privilege to treat women as sexual entertainment anytime, anywhere. Look at Donald Trump's behavior. Most men regard women as subhuman. How do we educate men to see women as fellow human beings, and treat them accordingly?
I surely would like to know more about the survey. The NY Times indicates the survey group was of voters. Do stay at home mothers and retired men worry more about their spouses activities at work and the potential of hanky panky? There is little in this article about the gray areas. For example, there is a difference between a sip of wine at a quick lunch with a co-worker vs a saturday night private dinner in a secluded setting. The age responses are not clear either. Does an 18 year old young woman feel differently than an older woman? What does come through is that potential lawsuits and disciplinary actions are causing some good and much concern.
5
I'd appreciate some more detail on the Morning Consult survey. What time of day were calls made? What specific questions were asked to people in what regions of the US?
As a professional woman, I find this article self-serving, ludicrous and depressing. If I refused to meet men alone in my job, perhaps I'd have more time to answer slanted surveys like this one (in my unemployment).
As a professional woman, I find this article self-serving, ludicrous and depressing. If I refused to meet men alone in my job, perhaps I'd have more time to answer slanted surveys like this one (in my unemployment).
12
Sadly, all too many women will pull out the "harassment" card when they feel things at work are not going there way and a male is to blame. This is not helping the women's movement. In fact, it is helping to invalidate it.
30
But the truth is that most of us really have been harassed repeatedly. And often no one believes us unless there were other victims.
Sadly, you think your comment is accurate.
So you say, zooprof. I wonder, though, how it is that you know what "most women" have experienced and that "often" no one believes them. It's a big group. In truth, you are merely recycling the old "women don't lie about [rape/sexual assault/harassment]!" battle cry, which is as unprovable as it is, by its terms, preposterous.
And I am not focused on what "most women" experience "often"; women are proving quite capable of defending themselves in the current legal climate. In taking relatively anodyne steps to protect myself, I am looking at that woman who is not quite so pure of heart as you and your colleagues.
And I am not focused on what "most women" experience "often"; women are proving quite capable of defending themselves in the current legal climate. In taking relatively anodyne steps to protect myself, I am looking at that woman who is not quite so pure of heart as you and your colleagues.
Given both the possibility of sexual harassment and that of false accusations of sexual harassment, and that they end up in a "he said, she said" situation, most societies have had strict rules about men and women unsupervised meetings.
Some societies have even gone so from as to organise themselves to prevent ANY male-female interaction outside the family, made it necessary to have 4 witnesses to corroborate accusations, etc.
In a patriarchy, the benefit of the doubt was given to males. In a more feminist one, it is given to females.
In the first, that means the onus is on women to protect themselves by avoiding those situations, in the latter, on the men. (Just as with the danger of unwanted pregancies, failed marriages, etc.) Men are now feeling the pressure women have had to deal with, and are reacting accordingly.
Some societies have even gone so from as to organise themselves to prevent ANY male-female interaction outside the family, made it necessary to have 4 witnesses to corroborate accusations, etc.
In a patriarchy, the benefit of the doubt was given to males. In a more feminist one, it is given to females.
In the first, that means the onus is on women to protect themselves by avoiding those situations, in the latter, on the men. (Just as with the danger of unwanted pregancies, failed marriages, etc.) Men are now feeling the pressure women have had to deal with, and are reacting accordingly.
11
Maybe a lot of people believe these things because that is how they were trained in mandatory anti- sexual harassment seminars at their place of employment.. such as the federal government.
12
I'm totally shocked by this. I meet with women by myself all the time, both work-related and in social situations. My wife meets with men socially, too. It's an important part of my life - what on earth is there to be afraid of?
30
Did you read the article?
2
False accusations are pretty scary.
Tom Wilson Maryland -"what on earth is there to be afraid of?"
Of being betrayed. As being treated as an object. Of people seeking power at the expense of others. Of being accused of inappropriate words or behavior. Of being sexist or racist. Of being told we're indifferent or insensitive or unapproachable. Of being seduced or being seduced and then reported for being sexually aggressive and reprehensible. Of being told our decisions are based on whether or not we got sexual favors. Of being constantly thought of as unwilling and/or unable to work with women.
There's lots to be afraid of. After more than 40 years in the workplace I learned very, very quickly to stay away, not to speak, and to make absolutely certain that if I had a conversation with a woman it was only within a large mixed group.
PS, I'm married and have 4 daughters and 3 granddaughters and mother and a sister. I'm not biased. I'm just tired of being beat up, suppressed and having to be afraid to treat women as equals. Just because some women have a college degree, or can do the math, and your job is a high-level position doesn't mean that you have good judgement, insight and empathy or regard for others. It may mean you're just nasty because you can get away with it.
Of being betrayed. As being treated as an object. Of people seeking power at the expense of others. Of being accused of inappropriate words or behavior. Of being sexist or racist. Of being told we're indifferent or insensitive or unapproachable. Of being seduced or being seduced and then reported for being sexually aggressive and reprehensible. Of being told our decisions are based on whether or not we got sexual favors. Of being constantly thought of as unwilling and/or unable to work with women.
There's lots to be afraid of. After more than 40 years in the workplace I learned very, very quickly to stay away, not to speak, and to make absolutely certain that if I had a conversation with a woman it was only within a large mixed group.
PS, I'm married and have 4 daughters and 3 granddaughters and mother and a sister. I'm not biased. I'm just tired of being beat up, suppressed and having to be afraid to treat women as equals. Just because some women have a college degree, or can do the math, and your job is a high-level position doesn't mean that you have good judgement, insight and empathy or regard for others. It may mean you're just nasty because you can get away with it.
2
Based on the results of this study, I have decided it would not be safe for me to to be alone with an uneducated, evangelical, Republican man.
278
Or even an educated one!
nobody is.
Based on your comment, it's not safe to be alone with an under educated, atheist, liberal who can't respect personal boundaries others have set for themselves for fear that she will spew her anger.
3
Sorry, but context is everything in a polling question, and these questions were asked without context.
Is a work meeting with opposite sex appropriate? Where is the meeting? Office? Hotel room?
Is a drive with opposite sex appropriate? To where? Business meeting? The local park?
Worse, the article starts with a conclusory sentence about men and women that is not supported by the crummy poll.
Here's what I learned: The writer of the article wanted to make more out of very little.
With all of the important issues that need more reporting the NY Times spends $$ on this?
Is a work meeting with opposite sex appropriate? Where is the meeting? Office? Hotel room?
Is a drive with opposite sex appropriate? To where? Business meeting? The local park?
Worse, the article starts with a conclusory sentence about men and women that is not supported by the crummy poll.
Here's what I learned: The writer of the article wanted to make more out of very little.
With all of the important issues that need more reporting the NY Times spends $$ on this?
24
Very good points. Use of the term "spouse" may also put some bias to the poll as well as asking if it's "appropriate" versus asking would the responders actually do that, which is different thing. There's about 10% grey (literally) in the data that represents "did not know or no opinion". My answer to this simplistic yew/no poll would be "it depends". How long have I know the person? And the context as msmec commented too. Too much simplistic polling going on today that presupposes certain responses. Which came first, this story or the poll?
Leads me to ask . . . is there a purpose to these meetings? If so --just being pragmatic here-- doesn't the whole "accomplish the mission" thing take priority?
If I had a female supervisor who felt uneasy meeting with me when I requested direction, I'd get another job.
If I had a female supervisor who felt uneasy meeting with me when I requested direction, I'd get another job.
11
On your way out the door, thank your supervisor for not putting yourselves in a private situation where she could have falsely accused you of something you did not do.
What does the bible and the commandment to not commit adultery have to do with any of this? Did all the bible thumpers miss the commandment not to sexually harass, let alone rape, women? Is that just common sense, or does it need to be chiseled in stone for them too?
We seem to be doomed. More Planet of the Apes movies, that's what we are.
We seem to be doomed. More Planet of the Apes movies, that's what we are.
9
Non-Hexadecimal's comment was a cheap shot at women and uncalled for. We all know that sexual harassment exists in the workplace and there is a Roger Ayles here and there but that is rare. I have worked with many men who do NOT use locker-room talk as our so-called president calls it and they wouldn't think of making inappropriate advances. It sounds to me like Non-Hexadecimal thinks the board room should be open to men only. That is pathetic.
11
I beg to differ. Harassment is NOT rare. Things are improving in many environments, but I work at a university where the issue rears its ugly head on a regular basis. Harassment, bullying by mean, failing to create an environment where women have a say and are heard as equals... it's all happening right now. I'm in my sixties and an associate professor so some standing, and I recently left a department where I was repeatedly harassed - by the graduate student advisor, no less. At least now we have policies in place, but in many settings (including among the engineers of Silicon Valley) there is still little recourse. During my career I've been twice harassed right out of a job - and I can't even count the incidents that were less professionally significant but equally traumatic. Don't dismiss it if you haven't lived it.p
1
Mike Pence isn't half the man that Mrs. Pence, Mrs. Trump, Mrs. Conway, Mrs. Manigault, Mrs. Sanders and Mrs. Kushner are by nature or nurture. There are only two biological DNA genetic sexually procreative human genders. Neither sexuality nor gender are the universal clearly fixed beyond biology
Pence's pompous prancing preening parading claim that he is 'a Christian, a conservative and Republican in that order' is inhumane inhuman hubris lying trebled. Neither Pence nor Trump are brave warrior hunter gatherers.
Pence's pompous prancing preening parading claim that he is 'a Christian, a conservative and Republican in that order' is inhumane inhuman hubris lying trebled. Neither Pence nor Trump are brave warrior hunter gatherers.
12
"Neither Pence nor Trump are brave warrior hunter gatherers." What a relief! Because that's not what we elected either of them to do!
This is fascinating. I have always found there is generally no greater snuffer of attraction than having to work with someone.
3
“There’s no way that women or men can become their full and best selves by closing themselves off.” More so for men!!!
2
Sex is so important to people, it's the only reason we are here. Let's not get too complicated folks. It's just plain wise to be wary of one-on-one meetings. If of the right age, people are going to have sex if left alone long enough. I recall a past New Times article on the topic of love. Simply asking a series of questions while looking into each others eyes can make strangers feel like they are in love after 30 minutes. Sex is our main interest. Advertising anyone? We may pin down fleetingly sexual desire with "professionalism". But eventually that bird will fly.
5
I am so grateful not to be living in your world. I only wish you didn't either.
15
I remember going to NYC in 1983 for orientation at the corporate headquarters of the company that had just hired me. I was ushered into the office of a senior VP who made some small talk and then asked me "do tall women (I am 5'9") ever feel sexually attracted to short men (he was about 5'4")? I finally caught on to wearing a wedding ring. Men in higher positions may have had no respect for me, but they were afraid of offending my imaginary husband.
9
First, a study of attitudes of cross-gender and cross-race interactions and capturing age, gender, political ideology, religiosity, race, ethnicity. education, work-industry, work-role comparing US and other countries would be revealing. I expect findings would reflect what I observed and experienced working and traveling in many countries -- those raised in countries where all citizens were expected to work or otherwise serve filtered youth into educational tracks and vocational training based on aptitudes and workers are promoted based on merit rather than gender. Results include no-to-little pay disparity, little general anxiety about opposite-gender interaction at work or in public, and actual cross-gender friendships. FAMILIARITY with the other develops respect and avoids fear of the unknown.
Second, the US needs to cease segregated education as it fosters fear of the other and diminishes growth generated from "the melting pot". Girls and boys as well as women and men of all religions and races should be educated in the same classroom. Regardless of gender, religion, and race, persons who were catalysts in advancing the development of whatever topic is being taught should be highlighted by publishers and educators informing these students. Specialization to "women's studies", "chicano studies", "muslim studies", or any field should be limited to some college courses, with those studying such topics concurrently enrolled in "general education" courses.
Second, the US needs to cease segregated education as it fosters fear of the other and diminishes growth generated from "the melting pot". Girls and boys as well as women and men of all religions and races should be educated in the same classroom. Regardless of gender, religion, and race, persons who were catalysts in advancing the development of whatever topic is being taught should be highlighted by publishers and educators informing these students. Specialization to "women's studies", "chicano studies", "muslim studies", or any field should be limited to some college courses, with those studying such topics concurrently enrolled in "general education" courses.
5
Is this the reason so many Americans are worried about Sharia law? The idea that men and women cannot relate in a platonic way and are subjected to temptation which they can't control is the same value system. At a business function a colleague of my husband's refused to shake my hand because it was against his religion. Any contact with the opposite sex who are not your family is forbidden. Not trusting yourself or others makes a equality of the sexes impossible.
14
Was the poll asking what was appropriate behavior for men and women taken in Saudi Arabia or the U.S.?
22
The conversation resulting from this article is helpful in getting people to think about uncomfortable issues. Society is changing fast, and it is often difficult to set appropriate boundaries in situations where there is a continuum between strictly business, professional mentoring, casual friendship, and intimate involvement. The problems are exacerbated whenever there is a power imbalance (boss/new employee, teacher/student). Similar ambiguous situations occur in the workplace, in academic settings, religious settings, and youth groups.
It's pretty shocking that a majority of folks seem to think the other sex is an alien. or completely focused on sexual matters. No wonder so many are even more wary of homosexuals or trans people: as if without being sure of the gender, you don't know how to protect yourself.
The only men that have made me uncomfortable - esp in a work setting - are those who made inappropriate remarks or gestures ( see Trump) and they were not the norm. However I do remember a friend advising me - years ago - that I might be interested in the news that I was having an affair with a guy I often ate lunch with at work .... As someone who had male friends - platonic - sometimes deep - from an early age, I am dumbfounded at the continued belief that this is not possible. Do people develop crushes or romantic relationships with people they work with? Of course. The enlightened view is that we are not governed by uncontrollable urges, and most of us can manage to honor any vows we've made. The ones who don't will do what they want no matter where they are. And no " safeguards against impropriety" guarantee loyalty.
The only men that have made me uncomfortable - esp in a work setting - are those who made inappropriate remarks or gestures ( see Trump) and they were not the norm. However I do remember a friend advising me - years ago - that I might be interested in the news that I was having an affair with a guy I often ate lunch with at work .... As someone who had male friends - platonic - sometimes deep - from an early age, I am dumbfounded at the continued belief that this is not possible. Do people develop crushes or romantic relationships with people they work with? Of course. The enlightened view is that we are not governed by uncontrollable urges, and most of us can manage to honor any vows we've made. The ones who don't will do what they want no matter where they are. And no " safeguards against impropriety" guarantee loyalty.
21
It does seem more like a concern with one's "public image" rather than reality. Cheaters are going to cheat, regardless of some silly stage-managing "rules."
2
Afraid of what VP Pence? Saying something inappropriate? Being blackmailed? Inability to control yourself?
Perhaps. In which case, Pence may be doing what's right for him but it's not right for many women and men. The rest of us have boundaries, dignity and respect for the opposite (or same) gender as well as ourselves.
Perhaps. In which case, Pence may be doing what's right for him but it's not right for many women and men. The rest of us have boundaries, dignity and respect for the opposite (or same) gender as well as ourselves.
21
How often is religion part of the problem, creating "issues" out of fictional dogma. Pence already treats women like second-class individuals, children who need to be told what is right and wrong. That religious distortion thus makes him incapable of one-to-one relationships with females.
Intelligent, well-balanced, educated people do not have these issues. Trust in one's self, the other person and those around us is the glue that makes business/social interaction possible. Apparently those most religious don't have that trust and have created a fabricated reality to justify it.
Many of these same individuals have no problem supporting the least trustworthy person of all, the current president. If satanic being actually existed, religion would be its crowning achievement.
Eclectic Pragmatism — http://eclectic-pragmatist.tumblr.com/
Eclectic Pragmatist — https://medium.com/eclectic-pragmatism
Intelligent, well-balanced, educated people do not have these issues. Trust in one's self, the other person and those around us is the glue that makes business/social interaction possible. Apparently those most religious don't have that trust and have created a fabricated reality to justify it.
Many of these same individuals have no problem supporting the least trustworthy person of all, the current president. If satanic being actually existed, religion would be its crowning achievement.
Eclectic Pragmatism — http://eclectic-pragmatist.tumblr.com/
Eclectic Pragmatist — https://medium.com/eclectic-pragmatism
14
Males in America should be wary of being alone with the opposite sex especially strangers. Please see the comments to the article in the NYT Opinion Pages on June 30, 2017 entitled "The Thrill and Fear of 'Hey, Beautiful.' It appears that almost anything said to a female by a male can and will be considered harassment. Sad!
17
Don't say anything about her looks or body. It seems pretty simple to avoid "almost anything" like that. Do you comment on male co-workers' appearance?
1
What is really sad is that so many men feel they have a right to address a woman they do not even know, who has expressed zero interest in them. and make comments about her body. Apparently there is no way for you to understand why women see this as a problem. But it is a separate issue from a one-on-one business meeting, or being with a member of the opposite sex in a social situation.
Seriously, you need to watch Jessica Williams' video of being catcalled endlessly in the streets of New York. It's not "innocent behavior" to make women feel constantly fearful or frustrated. http://www.cc.com/video-clips/5ndnit/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-jes...
Women are hit on often enough at work that pretending sex isn't a factor at work is pretty naive. We don't have the luxury of being "gender blind." Drinks and dinner alone with the opposite sex are usually seen as dating-type activities for straight people.
3
"One reason women stall professionally, research shows, is that people have a tendency to hire, promote and mentor people like themselves."
Clearly, as every poll result presented confirms, men are much more comfortable engaging with women one-on-one than than women are with men. If this discomfort results in stalled careers, then women have only themselves to blame.
Clearly, as every poll result presented confirms, men are much more comfortable engaging with women one-on-one than than women are with men. If this discomfort results in stalled careers, then women have only themselves to blame.
4
This is not a one size fits all question. Sexual chemistry (or lack of) is a strange beast. What might seem totally appropriate with one person might seem totally inappropriate with another. Sometimes regardless of sex. And I think most women, and men, understand this. What prevents one person from having an opportunity to advance in a workplace might also prevent another person from being harrassed. How can you draw a line? Human nature is not going to change.
4
Maybe the conservative obsession with anything to do with sex or sexuality keeps them from enjoying friendships with people of a different gender, and perhaps even a different sexual orientation. Are we still living in the 1950s? For a relatively young man, Pence seems awfully old, an anachronism, a dinosaur. Maybe all that patriarchal religion stunts people's ability to see others as human beings, rather than opportunities for sinning. What a backward country we've created.
40
Not too surprising really. Younger people may not be quite so worried about overt harassment but:
* Younger women may worry about building such close personal relationships with a guy in their org. or what others might think
* Guys and women may not want to build those close relationships out of respect for their spouse
* Having a drink or diner suggest an out of work activity that would need to be well justified - especially to their spouse.
* Some percentage of well-educated people will never be comfortable with solo intersex meetings just for religious/cultural reasons (e.g. evangelicals ans Muslims maybe).
* Younger women may worry about building such close personal relationships with a guy in their org. or what others might think
* Guys and women may not want to build those close relationships out of respect for their spouse
* Having a drink or diner suggest an out of work activity that would need to be well justified - especially to their spouse.
* Some percentage of well-educated people will never be comfortable with solo intersex meetings just for religious/cultural reasons (e.g. evangelicals ans Muslims maybe).
1
Really? "Congratulations are due to the triumph of hyper-vigilant feminist ideologues . . . "
Too simplicity and predictable, folks. Let's add in a hyper-vigilant legal system; social media and the 24-hour news cycle publicly shaming the innocent, naive and guilty; and personal privacy simply a vestigial artifact, like turn signals.
Too simplicity and predictable, folks. Let's add in a hyper-vigilant legal system; social media and the 24-hour news cycle publicly shaming the innocent, naive and guilty; and personal privacy simply a vestigial artifact, like turn signals.
7
There was a thing going around where people were hugging hello at work and especially at after work gatherings. Not just a quick "tap tap" but a lingering firm embrace. Men and women were doing it. Many people seemed comfortable with it but I thought it blurred too many lines and opted out.
Also, a colleague wondered why no one had complimented her on her recent weight loss. I pointed out that no man in his right mind would go there. The most innocent comment could result in a reprimand.
Another colleague got a boob job and was fond of tight sweaters. It's probably done her as much harm as good...men want her around but don't take her seriously.
Lastly, I can think of at least two co-workers who cheated on their out of office spouses with in office people. One was a manager. Everyone knew and the only discussion was whether you'd "bang" either of them.
So, in that environment it makes sense to have a personal set of ethics that is more stringent than what prevails.
Also, a colleague wondered why no one had complimented her on her recent weight loss. I pointed out that no man in his right mind would go there. The most innocent comment could result in a reprimand.
Another colleague got a boob job and was fond of tight sweaters. It's probably done her as much harm as good...men want her around but don't take her seriously.
Lastly, I can think of at least two co-workers who cheated on their out of office spouses with in office people. One was a manager. Everyone knew and the only discussion was whether you'd "bang" either of them.
So, in that environment it makes sense to have a personal set of ethics that is more stringent than what prevails.
7
Seems to prove not only a highly judgmental but also a litigious society. How can women ever begin to crack equality rights & non-sexism in careers with the police, firefighters, the military, politics, boardrooms, senior administrative positions, etc with this kind of outmoded, medieval thinking across the land? Dominant patriarchy does seem a bit 15-16th century, dontcha think? What keeps the US so slow to keep up with the 21st century? How can they fix it?
4
Good grief! What kind of world do Americans live in where they are frightened to be alone with someone of the opposite sex? How do they manage to getanything done? How do they manage to work with collegues? Do Americans avoid meeting with those of the opposite sex when dealing with doctors or lawyers or teachers or childminders?
20
It's a world where people can easily be falsely accused of sexual harassment, or worse.
McCullough's biography of President Truman illustrates just how pervasive this discomfort is and was. Apparently the former president was so uncomfortable occupying the same room (alone) with a woman not his wife, he would abruptly stand and leave the premises whenever this occurred.
2
Truman was president over 60 years ago. Surely, people have changed since then?
Feminists have pioneered the meme that "women don't lie about [rape/sexual assault/leers]!". In other words, an accusation must be treated as the truth; it is yet another indignity that any man would deny an accusation. Yet they also ridicule (and threaten with legal action) men who take reasonable steps to assure that accusations will not tarnish them. We see how this game is played.
9
Last week I had three meetings alone with my, oh dear, male boss! The office walls weren't glass and the door window was obscured. My reputation will now be ruined, just ruined, what will I do.
6
I think the question is what would happen to HIS reputation, should your relationship ever sour. But you are forgiven for assuming that it is, after all, all about you.
1
Reading your post, I can see the young silent movie heroine holding her hand to her face in despair. This does all sound so 19th century.
This is ridiculous. Avoiding one on one meetings because a man or woman might be tempted is utter nonsense.
I'm a guy that has had plenty of one one one work related meetings with female colleagues; lunches, drives to offsite meetings, dinners, even sharing a 2 bedroom airbnb.
It is a man's and a woman's responsibility to keep things professional, civil and friendly. If anyone crosses a line, they've got to be called on it. We're all grown ups here: just because you find someone attractive is no excuse for inappropriate behavior. And just because there is opportunity, doesn't mean one has no choice but to act on it. It's called keeping it in your pants, valuing a relationship (both personal and professional) and being a grown up.
Believe me, if someone wanted to step out, they would find the opportunity no matter what.
I'm a guy that has had plenty of one one one work related meetings with female colleagues; lunches, drives to offsite meetings, dinners, even sharing a 2 bedroom airbnb.
It is a man's and a woman's responsibility to keep things professional, civil and friendly. If anyone crosses a line, they've got to be called on it. We're all grown ups here: just because you find someone attractive is no excuse for inappropriate behavior. And just because there is opportunity, doesn't mean one has no choice but to act on it. It's called keeping it in your pants, valuing a relationship (both personal and professional) and being a grown up.
Believe me, if someone wanted to step out, they would find the opportunity no matter what.
8
Unfortunately, in some circles if you are seen having a meal with a member of the opposite others will automatically assume that you are having an affair with that person and not just discussing business or even the weather!
1
It has little to do with temptation, and A LOT to do with FALSE ACCUSATION.
Very depressing. People need to learn to behave in a humane and non-harassing manner with one another, of any sex. And people need to stop thinking of members of the opposite sex who are co-workers and clients and so on as though they were meeting them on Tinder. In other words: take people seriously as workers/professionals/people who actually are doing their job. It's not that difficult.
Then perhaps everyone who gave these amazing Pence-y survey answers could ditch their Victorian rules.
Then perhaps everyone who gave these amazing Pence-y survey answers could ditch their Victorian rules.
13
AMEN!
My best friend is a woman. We've both had rough patches (Cancer, being widowed among others) and were there to support each other. The Pences canddo what they want, but I thought that kind of thinking want out with high button shoe. I'm surprised at your survey results.
9
My best friend is a man, has been for about 18 years. He's smart, he's funny and the most progressive person I know. We make each other laugh. It's that simple. That 22-25% that are revolted that others would have a "work meeting" are the same quarter of the population that are always popping up on questions on abortion or who consider themselves "Evangelical". I don't think they'll be any more satisfied when they finally out-law birth control and abortion. I'd better start weaving my burqa!
5
Your male best friend is hardly in the category of work associate or casual acquaintance.
If the vice president feels that way one may assume that will soon be the rule in the administration. Sharia law sneaks in through the back door.
5
We are already living in Saudi America; full of hypocrisy, contradictions and Puritanism.
5
And silly hyperbole waltzes in the front door.
Be careful about trashing Trump too severely. Pence, and then Ryan, are next in line.
Be careful about trashing Trump too severely. Pence, and then Ryan, are next in line.
1
I guess the folks that fear sharing space with the opposite sex must have sexual issues. Either they are predators or they fear others are. Where is their spine? Where is the "respect" for the opposite sex. Obviously they did not get a good sex education or an education is social skills from their parents. This is rather sick.
4
As a survivor of decades of objectification in the workplace, I can testify that if anything, it is getting worse. Many of today's females will throw it in my face all day long, and uncaringly bait me, while taking absolutely no responsibility and showing no appreciation of the fact that society has thoroughly conditioned me to have no power to resist even the slightest provocation. I am powerless to decline any invitation or suggestion, and they know it, and some will use this against me, without mercy. A life in the thrall of womens' overwhelming sexual power is exhausting, degrading and dehumanizing.
2
I would think that the sanctity of marriage and the trust it entails would make this a non-issue.
Then again, we have a serial adulterer pretending to play as POTUS now, so I guess that's how America really feels about the institution of marriage.
Then again, we have a serial adulterer pretending to play as POTUS now, so I guess that's how America really feels about the institution of marriage.
8
It has been said that the only 20th century President who did NOT cheat on his wife was Harry Truman!
1
What about Calvin Coolidge? Where could he possibly find a woman interested in having an affair with him?
It has been said by whom? What is the source for saying that Barak Obama cheated on his wife?
OK, Brazil is happily a much less up-tight place than the US.
A couple of years ago a senior IBM executive visited our company to make a presentation. Afterwards, as I was escorting her to her car, my assistant who had been on vacation appeared, came up and kissed me on the cheek, a very normal Brazilian gesture. When she had gone, the IBM woman, obviously disturbed, turned to me and said that if that had happened in her office in the US, I would have been fired on the spot.
Has the great divide between left and right, rich and poor, black and white infected what should be perfectly normal relations between colleagues and friends of the opposite gender? Too bad if it has.
A couple of years ago a senior IBM executive visited our company to make a presentation. Afterwards, as I was escorting her to her car, my assistant who had been on vacation appeared, came up and kissed me on the cheek, a very normal Brazilian gesture. When she had gone, the IBM woman, obviously disturbed, turned to me and said that if that had happened in her office in the US, I would have been fired on the spot.
Has the great divide between left and right, rich and poor, black and white infected what should be perfectly normal relations between colleagues and friends of the opposite gender? Too bad if it has.
9
Majority of Americans are bigoted, narrow minded bible punchers.
Well, I never…
Well, I never…
4
When the NYTimes writes such an article it is clearly going to be from the point of view and politics of the writers from the few colleges which supply so many of it's people. I wonder how many of these reporters, writers & editorialists at the Times bothered to speak either with parents or grandparents about what sexual relations between men and women were like in the many decades that came before, and which allowed for the conception and birth of the current crop of writers. ? How many Times writers were, like Bart Simpson, created under a wooden structure on a miniature golf course? I wonder how many had moms or grandmoms who actually remained at home in an East or West side apartment, having babies and maybe raising them , even after a divorce? Things change and so do the more's of the times(take the pun or leave it). The fact is that human sexual relations between 1955 and the 90's were an entirely different ball of wax and far more relaxed. It has been an extremely uptight and often "angry at men" politics which has created this attempt by so many young women to push society back to the morals of 1890, and to practically deny that any man might have any but the worst intentions. It would do our better halves better if they remembered that we remain half of the equation almost any time women want to get in a family way. We are all but indispensable-treat us with more care and we will open doors and bring flowers more frequently.
This set of numbers , too will pass.
This set of numbers , too will pass.
2
What a sad commentary on the emotional lives of many Americans. Marriage regarded as a bar to friendship. Suspicion and mistrust of spouses, fear of entrapment or extortion in innocent circumstances.
You know how many Americans regard Sharia law and the treatment of women in Muslim countries as backwards and unenlightened? Look in the mirror, America, how do you think truly modern, enlightened and equal societies regard you?
You know how many Americans regard Sharia law and the treatment of women in Muslim countries as backwards and unenlightened? Look in the mirror, America, how do you think truly modern, enlightened and equal societies regard you?
10
Geoff--
The religion of Americans is capitalism. Its divinity is the Yankee Dollar where In God We Trust is inscribed. Aside from the diehard evangelicals such as Pence, the overwhelming majority of Americans are theologically and ideologically blind. It all boils down to MONEY, the fear of financial ruin in the event of a sexual harassment accusation. The love of Mammon is without limits in the United States, where a lawsuit can earn someone a jackpot.
The religion of Americans is capitalism. Its divinity is the Yankee Dollar where In God We Trust is inscribed. Aside from the diehard evangelicals such as Pence, the overwhelming majority of Americans are theologically and ideologically blind. It all boils down to MONEY, the fear of financial ruin in the event of a sexual harassment accusation. The love of Mammon is without limits in the United States, where a lawsuit can earn someone a jackpot.
2
How very sad. To think one must be brave to meet behind closed doors with anyone. To me this sort of meeting means I trust you and expect that you trust me. If the meeting is going to discuss sensitive issues I always ask if it is ok to close the door. Trust and you will be trusted. Yes I have been accused of sexual harassment. Twice in my 35 year old career, both times it was devastating, both times it was not true. I have never done anything to incite that type of response. Both times I was finally believed. I have been married to the same woman and have never strayed. Looked yes.. Spoken or acted on my desires, no. As a senior management consultant to Hospitals I meet with a lot of women and gaining mutual trust is essential for successful business. Fear will never rule my life. I am to be trusted and I am trusted.
6
Oh dear what a fearful and sexist world we have become
Back in 1980 (to most of the sexual and racial justice warrior that is a time of ancient history) I would regularly meet for dinner with my co-author on a series of articles for the National Academy of Arbitrators.
I worked all day as an NLRB attorney (labor law, unions, pickets & strikes). He was travelling a lot as a labor arbitrator - first black labor arbitrator in the US. Only time we had to go over material was (a) over dinner or (b) meet on the weekends
So having dinner at some of the most expensive restaurants in the city were a 27 year old white woman (5'2" size 2) and a distinguished 55-60 year old black man. Subject: statistical analysis of arbitration decisions in employment cases or similar matters
Neither of us every gave it a thought.
The restaurants never batted an idea but seated us at the best tables
In the intervening 37 years, the media has been screaming about sexual harassment (seems everything, including very funny jokes or compliments on a dress, is now harassment) and ranting that all men are rapists.
So yeah - congratulations. The hyper-sensitive have created a climate of fear on both sides.
Back in 1980 (to most of the sexual and racial justice warrior that is a time of ancient history) I would regularly meet for dinner with my co-author on a series of articles for the National Academy of Arbitrators.
I worked all day as an NLRB attorney (labor law, unions, pickets & strikes). He was travelling a lot as a labor arbitrator - first black labor arbitrator in the US. Only time we had to go over material was (a) over dinner or (b) meet on the weekends
So having dinner at some of the most expensive restaurants in the city were a 27 year old white woman (5'2" size 2) and a distinguished 55-60 year old black man. Subject: statistical analysis of arbitration decisions in employment cases or similar matters
Neither of us every gave it a thought.
The restaurants never batted an idea but seated us at the best tables
In the intervening 37 years, the media has been screaming about sexual harassment (seems everything, including very funny jokes or compliments on a dress, is now harassment) and ranting that all men are rapists.
So yeah - congratulations. The hyper-sensitive have created a climate of fear on both sides.
8
"Almost as if they were a temptress"
Almost?
In countries where men have been able to enshrine themselves with absolute power over everything under the guise of "religion" "deep conservatism" "tradition" -women are forced to walk around in bags.
Almost?
In countries where men have been able to enshrine themselves with absolute power over everything under the guise of "religion" "deep conservatism" "tradition" -women are forced to walk around in bags.
10
Nonsense. Many of my jobs involved working with women, two of us, alone in a confined space, for hours and hours and very little supervision. Sometimes at night. Nothing happened. It was a job.
5
This is one of those things that women have always known, and men are just now discovering.
People in this country are unhealthily preoccupied with sex , get it that in the work place there have been instances of sexual harassment either falsely or in truthfully . What's next? The handmaid scenario or the Christian version of sharia ? This is way too paranoid and frightening . It seems very dystopian.
2
Attraction and lust can happen in any and all situations where men and women interact. This is a basic fact of life. The basis of life in fact. Separation of the sexes in the workforce was the norm historically. Why? Perhaps because it is a devilishly difficult conundrum to solve, how to keep work relationships from intruding on social ones. So separation was the default, pragmatic choice.
Times are different now. Workforce equality is demanded, and is a worthy goal. But men and women ARE different. They have different biological roles to play, both of which seem to interfere with parity at work.
For most men, if they are not aggressive sexually, they have no offspring. That is a powerful force. And while it may be pleasant to think that it can be turned off at work, reality counters that thought.
Women become pregnant. Their physical needs and abilities change, and must be accomodated. Their emotional priorities also change, as they should.
So it seems that for men and women to have equality at work allowances will have to be made for the realities of both genders. From a business perspective these probably look like inefficiencies. That will be the price paid if equality is truly the goal.
Vive La Difference!
Times are different now. Workforce equality is demanded, and is a worthy goal. But men and women ARE different. They have different biological roles to play, both of which seem to interfere with parity at work.
For most men, if they are not aggressive sexually, they have no offspring. That is a powerful force. And while it may be pleasant to think that it can be turned off at work, reality counters that thought.
Women become pregnant. Their physical needs and abilities change, and must be accomodated. Their emotional priorities also change, as they should.
So it seems that for men and women to have equality at work allowances will have to be made for the realities of both genders. From a business perspective these probably look like inefficiencies. That will be the price paid if equality is truly the goal.
Vive La Difference!
2
Dicounting Nerds and Dweebs, the educated are usually more relaxed, which speaks to the education level of our society!
"I'm in love with the shape of you
We push and pull like a magnet do
Although my heart is falling too
I'm in love with your body"
Ed Sheeran, The Shape of You https://www.google.com/#q=i'm+in+love+with+the+shape+of+you+lyrics
Sex and love addiction is alive and well in the United States in 2017. All you have to do is listen to any popular music radio station to understand this. Sex and love lace through these songs and many have a trance-like quality. The troubles of the world disappear when you are under this spell. The rhythm transports you to a state where reality is no longer relevant. A loud and merry-sounding DJ connects the songs so the escape from reality is not lost between songs. So who would not want to enter this world, who would not want to let go of the pain to be in this state of pure bliss? Its no wonder that people are fearful of being alone with people of the opposite sex. The temptation to indulge in these states is too intense. And it's not a hard transition to make between listening to this cacophony of song to being pulled into the world of Rush Limbaugh or Donald Trump for that matter. We are living in a time where people don't face reality--climate change, war, violence, poverty--but instead find solace in states of "love" and hate. Temptation is all around us, even in the mere proximity of opposite or even same sex people in the workplace.
We push and pull like a magnet do
Although my heart is falling too
I'm in love with your body"
Ed Sheeran, The Shape of You https://www.google.com/#q=i'm+in+love+with+the+shape+of+you+lyrics
Sex and love addiction is alive and well in the United States in 2017. All you have to do is listen to any popular music radio station to understand this. Sex and love lace through these songs and many have a trance-like quality. The troubles of the world disappear when you are under this spell. The rhythm transports you to a state where reality is no longer relevant. A loud and merry-sounding DJ connects the songs so the escape from reality is not lost between songs. So who would not want to enter this world, who would not want to let go of the pain to be in this state of pure bliss? Its no wonder that people are fearful of being alone with people of the opposite sex. The temptation to indulge in these states is too intense. And it's not a hard transition to make between listening to this cacophony of song to being pulled into the world of Rush Limbaugh or Donald Trump for that matter. We are living in a time where people don't face reality--climate change, war, violence, poverty--but instead find solace in states of "love" and hate. Temptation is all around us, even in the mere proximity of opposite or even same sex people in the workplace.
1
Upon reading the title, my first thought was: "it's the false sexual harassment charges, duh". Sure enough, the one aspect that has kept men from boarding an elevator alone with a woman (or being alone with a woman without witnesses in any situation in the workplace) ever since the '90s -the fear of a false allegation of sexual harassment- is only anecdotically mentioned:
"some depicted the workplace as a fraught atmosphere in which they feared harassment, or being accused of it".
No mention either of the relation to feminist activism, or the many false rape accusations on campus, an alarming number of which were later debunked. Another commenter articulately described this trend:
"Define sexual harassment down to the point where even entirely innocent interactions are called harassment, insist that women must always be believed, increase the penalty to career death, and then act shocked when men actively avoid one-on-one meetings with female employees."
Of course, this piece doesn't only purport to "study" gender relations in the workplace, but in general; with the help of polls, no less. Most people are aware by now that biased wording in a poll can give you whatever responses you want to obtain, which you can then misinterpret as you want. The NYT's polling expertise, which has embarrassingly shown its limits in last year's election cycle, should further incite readers to take all this with a grain of salt. It's just infotainment with an agenda.
"some depicted the workplace as a fraught atmosphere in which they feared harassment, or being accused of it".
No mention either of the relation to feminist activism, or the many false rape accusations on campus, an alarming number of which were later debunked. Another commenter articulately described this trend:
"Define sexual harassment down to the point where even entirely innocent interactions are called harassment, insist that women must always be believed, increase the penalty to career death, and then act shocked when men actively avoid one-on-one meetings with female employees."
Of course, this piece doesn't only purport to "study" gender relations in the workplace, but in general; with the help of polls, no less. Most people are aware by now that biased wording in a poll can give you whatever responses you want to obtain, which you can then misinterpret as you want. The NYT's polling expertise, which has embarrassingly shown its limits in last year's election cycle, should further incite readers to take all this with a grain of salt. It's just infotainment with an agenda.
8
I don't know how you do things in France, but I've been in elevators with probably hundreds of men since the 90's.
From "The Neighbors," by Jonathan Richman and the Modern Lovers:
[Verse 5: Beth Harrington]
Here we are down the street. (Yeah?)
Here we are hand in hand. (Yeah)
You're close to me, people might misunderstand?
[Verse 5: Jonathan Richman]
Yeah, they could
If that's all they see,
I suppose they could go and tell my wife.
But my wife knows me better than that.
I have no need to let the neighbours run my life. (no no)
No need to let the neighbours run my life. (no no)
[Verse 5: Beth Harrington]
Here we are down the street. (Yeah?)
Here we are hand in hand. (Yeah)
You're close to me, people might misunderstand?
[Verse 5: Jonathan Richman]
Yeah, they could
If that's all they see,
I suppose they could go and tell my wife.
But my wife knows me better than that.
I have no need to let the neighbours run my life. (no no)
No need to let the neighbours run my life. (no no)
1
As the poll shows, it is the yahoos, lightly educated, if at all, and conservative so-called christians, who object to social meetings with a person of the opposite sex. These lunatics are out of touch with reality; unfortunately they have become all too dominate in our society.
One can only wonder how they ever find someone to marry, if they believe meeting on a social basis is a sin?
One can only wonder how they ever find someone to marry, if they believe meeting on a social basis is a sin?
3
Arranged marriages!
As a woman who has worked for many years with male colleagues...I meet with them almost every day, lunch with them, occasionally travel with them on business, and sometimes enjoy a beer with them - I find this survey (and some of the accompanying comments) completely bizarre. Really?? That's where people mindsets are? In 2017?
Wow. And that's not a "wow" in a good way...
Wow. And that's not a "wow" in a good way...
5
Are we going mad?
6
It disappoints me that the finest newspaper in this country, if not the world, puts drivel like this on the front page. This belongs in Cosmo or People, or even Forbes, as a reminder to companies to strengthen their employee relations rules.
If Mike Pence cannot eat a meal with a woman who is not his wife, he is not a gentleman. What is he afraid he will do? And whom will he decide is to blame? The woman, of course.
Grown-ups know how to interact, work alongside of, and dine with any other grown-up in a decent, civilized manner. It is not a "social problem" worthy of the front (or any) page of this paper.
If Mike Pence cannot eat a meal with a woman who is not his wife, he is not a gentleman. What is he afraid he will do? And whom will he decide is to blame? The woman, of course.
Grown-ups know how to interact, work alongside of, and dine with any other grown-up in a decent, civilized manner. It is not a "social problem" worthy of the front (or any) page of this paper.
6
I'm concerned. On the surface this is an overtly heterosexist survey. I wonder does the Times have information on who participated in the survey - is it possible to see the breakdown of the population who answered in order to examine the internal validity of what you are reporting?
2
This shows the type of country america is ! Mental health issues are ubiquitous and people obviously feel they are not free despite all the rhetoric we are bombarded with . A way for suspicion , fear and paranoia to be represented on the flag should be found NOW . Trump is the icing on the cake . Glad I'm old .
2
Jesus Christ. Are we not adults here? Are you, as an adult, incapable of saying, "I'm not interested" if someone makes an unwelcome advance. Grow up, America!
7
So...should all American women in the workplace start wearing the burqa? Who are you people?
3
Can a 63-year-old gay man weigh in on this? The people surveyed who advised caution are smart. Over the course of my career I've mistakenly bonded a few times with a male colleague in a context of mutual sexual interest and then watched the sky fall. Not having the choice to separate from each other because we needed the jobs created a miserable situation. I did not even have a partner at the time, but the sadness and fear were wretched nonetheless - in one case, almost unbearable. We all know that we do not choose whom we fall in love with. What we can choose is whether to actively fan the flames when there still is only a spark. Love is a beguiling hunter. I learned that the hard way.
1
I've been in a male-dominated profession for the past 15 years and have found that these so-called rules can actually work to my advantage, especially after having kids. Don't want to invite me out for drinks after work? Great! I'd rather pick my kids up from daycare anyway. Leaving me off the lunch invite list so you can talk about how attractive the waitresses are? Awesome, that's 2 extra hours of work that I'm doing that you aren't. The old boys club is dying because the people who are in it are not willing to work as hard as everyone else. The future economy simply won't tolerate the inefficiencies that accompany this type of sexist socializing.
5
Some of my former female co-workers that were married to VERY possessive men would never have lunch alone with a male co-worker.
I do recall one co-worker would not even be in a car with another man to pick up food for an office event. It was an all-woman food pick-up team. It was not a secret that one of the women had issues at home and the thought that someone would see her in a car with another man was not going to happen.
Another female co-worker had to go out of town for two weeks for training...She only went when her husband was able to take two weeks off from his job so he could be there with her.
I do recall one co-worker would not even be in a car with another man to pick up food for an office event. It was an all-woman food pick-up team. It was not a secret that one of the women had issues at home and the thought that someone would see her in a car with another man was not going to happen.
Another female co-worker had to go out of town for two weeks for training...She only went when her husband was able to take two weeks off from his job so he could be there with her.
Seems to say more about what people will tolerate in a marriage/relationship than what is appropriate behavior at work. Unfortunately, it takes a lot of courage to leave an abusive relationship, and it can be dangerous to do so.
1
That is not just possessive.
That is abuse.
That is abuse.
As a manager-owner and employer for over 40 years, I never worried about interactions between men and women in the workplace. People automatically know what's right and wrong to do...and of course, sometimes they do wrong. But I would often turn a blind eye to interactions, as long as the friendships did not hurt workplace performance. Several times there were situations when married persons were on the brink or over the brink on cheating. I would step in then and caution the parties on how this destructive behavior would impact their lives and eventually their jobs. Quite honestly, there has always been and always will be flirting and more in the American workplace.... My main concern about employee behavior has not been sex or flirtation, but illegal drug use, prescription drug abuse and alcohol abuse. These really impact workplace performance. I really didn't care that much about who was kissing who. But drug use does destroy health, functioning, careers and impacts decision-making in all phases of employees' lives.
2
Wow, we really are living back in the 1960's. Racism, nationalism and now sexism. Pathetic and unacceptable
7
It is not only one-on-one meetings with women. Much more difficult is one-on-one meetings between straight and gay guys.
3
My friends company is going through a huge lawsuit now because one of the male managers brushed shoulders while walking past a female coworker- even with multiple eyewitnesses - nothing was inappropriate- completely accidental- the lawsuit is ruing lives of hardworking people. This is what the liberal left wanted, "protections in the workplace" but the liberals are the ones who are rampantly exploiting and abusing the system designed to help them. The irony is thick as it is disgusting!
1
How can anyone object to work meetings with someone of the opposite sex? I've had male supervisors, and I've supervised male employees. Part of the job included one-on-one meetings. Since we often discussed confidential topics, leaving the door open was not an option. In 21 years, I never once thought about those meetings being inappropriate, and never heard anyone else suggest they were, either.
Now, going out for dinner or drinks would have been a little different, but only because that didn't typically happen in our work culture. On business trips, of course we would socialize in the evenings, but it was typically in a group. It's called networking. I'm sure there were times when I was alone with a man for at least part of an evening, but it doesn't stick out in my mind because I wouldn't have thought of it as a big deal.
If someone's hitting on me, I know it, and I know how to respond. I also know when they're not. Can't we all just grow up?
Now, going out for dinner or drinks would have been a little different, but only because that didn't typically happen in our work culture. On business trips, of course we would socialize in the evenings, but it was typically in a group. It's called networking. I'm sure there were times when I was alone with a man for at least part of an evening, but it doesn't stick out in my mind because I wouldn't have thought of it as a big deal.
If someone's hitting on me, I know it, and I know how to respond. I also know when they're not. Can't we all just grow up?
4
The Taliban has arrived folks. I have news for the Pence's in this country and that is, men and women work one on one together, ditto for travel together and meals/drinks together in the professional world and have for many years now.
There is nothing inappropriate about different genders working together alone or with others. To think otherwise is to condone the good ole' boys club where female professionals are isolated and precluded from full participation and that is definitely inappropriate. It has nothing to do with a boss and subordinate working together or peers doing the same. I find it appalling and surprising that so many are in the pre- 80's (at least).
There is nothing inappropriate about different genders working together alone or with others. To think otherwise is to condone the good ole' boys club where female professionals are isolated and precluded from full participation and that is definitely inappropriate. It has nothing to do with a boss and subordinate working together or peers doing the same. I find it appalling and surprising that so many are in the pre- 80's (at least).
4
life is complicated. I had a boyfriend once who could not help himself, he was always flirting and having sex with any available beautiful woman. But you know, he did not have a lot of women friends. He was handsome and exciting, a professional surfer, and life with him was an amazing adventure, but eventually I caught on to his problem, and left him. when I started dating my now husband of 25 years, I took it as a big plus that he had close and longtime women friends. I can't imagine my life without the dear friends I have, who happen to be male. I have of course had unwanted sexual attention in my life, but I think of those people as an aberration, not the absolute. I guess people who live in fear that an Applebees lunch with a co-worker will lead to the dissolution of their entire life just have different expectations than I do. i would just say to them that life is short, yet it can be full of friendship , love, and human achievement, but not if you live in fear and enslave yourself to archaic gender and religious dogma.
2
Don't know why you limit the results to those interactions where a spouse exists.
In this society, there's nothing to prevent a simple meet for a drink, when nothing happens, to become a slander on someone's reputation, whether they are married or not. And yes, that cuts both ways.
In this environment, where trolling and shaming is a favorite pastime, one cannot be too careful.
Trust no one.
In this society, there's nothing to prevent a simple meet for a drink, when nothing happens, to become a slander on someone's reputation, whether they are married or not. And yes, that cuts both ways.
In this environment, where trolling and shaming is a favorite pastime, one cannot be too careful.
Trust no one.
1
A man has to be either naïve or stupid or not know any recent news if he lets himself be caught alone with a female or a child. Both can destroy a man's life and reputation. American women are vengeful and consider it their right to lie where it suits their purpose or emotional stance. Just look at the actions of women's groups during the Vietnam War is just one of many examples of what American women are about.
As an engineer, I pretty much only have meetings with men!
2
The same caution extends to being around children.
This survey is very disturbing. What century do these people live in?
4
How far have we come. The specter of sexual criminality hangs over every social event because of so called liberalism.
The hyper sexual inference fostered by unnatural competition based on sex rather than merit and the splintering of group politics is fostered by power hungry leaders who have no valid credentials to offer.
To be afraid of being alone with a member of the opposite or another sex is a clarion cry for sanity. Their are how many sex types listed in the current society?
Grow up please.
The hyper sexual inference fostered by unnatural competition based on sex rather than merit and the splintering of group politics is fostered by power hungry leaders who have no valid credentials to offer.
To be afraid of being alone with a member of the opposite or another sex is a clarion cry for sanity. Their are how many sex types listed in the current society?
Grow up please.
1
Really, what *everyone* -- male or female, 18 years old or 75 -- should take care about is simply Walking Alone (or biking, running, or skating) in an area where there is no one else. It's solitary presence in an unoccupied space that is most dangerous, especially at night, of course, but also, in some places, in daytime. This goes for country roads or paths in Central Park or streets on the margins of cities or villages. --
As far as these silly statistics go, they will vary entirely according to the ages of the parties and their relationships: if you are a female academic and your (male) department chair is your former student, and both of you are happily married, you can probably have a meal together with no concerns whatsoever.
BY THE WAY, these statistics have a heterosexual bias: they assume everyone is attracted only to the "opposite sex." -- We may have same-sex marriage, but the heterosexual norm still dominates popular thinking -- and the limited minds of whoever organised this survey.
As far as these silly statistics go, they will vary entirely according to the ages of the parties and their relationships: if you are a female academic and your (male) department chair is your former student, and both of you are happily married, you can probably have a meal together with no concerns whatsoever.
BY THE WAY, these statistics have a heterosexual bias: they assume everyone is attracted only to the "opposite sex." -- We may have same-sex marriage, but the heterosexual norm still dominates popular thinking -- and the limited minds of whoever organised this survey.
6
The only way to improve is to have more women be career women, not only by given them more opportunity at work but also by providing family-friendly employment where possible (affordable childcare and flextime) and then maybe in another few decades we would achieve equality at workplace.
2
I have worked in a male dominated sector for my entire working life. I have had better luck judging colleagues than husbands, but that is another story. I have always presented myself as professional and have been recognized for that by said colleagues for having the good sense to excuse myself and leave inappropriate situations. I have also joked, drank and dined with colleagues who never would have taken advantage of the situation because we respected each other, and there were colleagues that I wouldn’t get in an elevator with alone. If you are looking for trouble, it will find you. I feel like our moral compass has devolved to the point that a lot of people, young and old, no longer know how to “Adult” and I don’t like the prospects of our society to get that back on track.
4
Images of Eve in the Garden of Eden. Unfortunately these thoughts that a woman might be a "temptress" brings to mind the shrouding of Muslim women as well as the NYT article on the 80 year old woman who sued El Al airlines for forcing her to change seats so that an Orthodox Jewish man wouldn't have to sit next to her, thus avoiding physical contact. Have couples and colleagues totally lost a sense of trust and respect in this sexualised world, probably so, given the example of Trump's continuous objectification of women.
2
That was my reaction, too. Apparently, about half the US population could move to Saudi Arabia with no problems. Brrr
2
The number of good, worthwhile people that we have the chance to get to know and interact with in our lives is so limited, that to decrease it further by refusing to have dinner with anyone of the opposite sex (except the one you married) seems to me profoundly sad. It also feels like a sad statement about what we've decided marriage is, if it's so fragile that it can't stand other friendships, even intimate ones. No wonder our divorce rate is so high.
As for the workplace fears--I understand that at some level we're all trying hard to protect ourselves (and each other). Maybe we should all go sit in our own little box. Then no misunderstandings could take place.
As for the workplace fears--I understand that at some level we're all trying hard to protect ourselves (and each other). Maybe we should all go sit in our own little box. Then no misunderstandings could take place.
9
This not something new. When my husband was a young professor, back in 1070, he was advised by an older, experienced colleague never to close his office door when meeting with a female student.
He followed that rule for his entire teaching career. It protected both parties.
He followed that rule for his entire teaching career. It protected both parties.
5
Women are treated differently, not just in regard to one on one relationships with men. For many years I taught in a dept. primarily of men, some of whom regularly ate lunch together. I do not recall ever being asked to have lunch with their group nor did either of the other one or two women. Such lunch meetings would have been very helpful in many ways.
3
This country's religious past is increasingly problematic in trying to achieve a fair society. On numerous issues, religion essentially functions as a way to hold people down. This is true on issues like the gender wage gap, same-sex marriage, equal rights for trans people, immigration, birth control/family planning, women's health services, I could go on and on. Mainstream American Christianity needs to figure out how to function better in a secular society without jeopardizing other peoples' rights.
14
When considering the pitfalls of being alone with members of the opposite sex I think one should NOT only look at "Mainstream American Christianity" to figure anything out. Perhaps one should look at other mainstream religions in the United States who actively separate, and segregate the sexes like Orthodox Judaism and Muslims.
1
I guess you didn't notice that Christians were the only religious group mentioned in this piece. I'm sure had Orthodox Jews or Muslims been included in the survey, hanging out with the other sex would have been A-OK, right?
I love how unbiased and open these "studies" are...
I love how unbiased and open these "studies" are...
3
It's true that many other religions have a problem with this, but that doesn't mean that Christianity does not have a problem as well. It's a fallacy to say that "because X groups also have a problem, I don't have a problem." Christianity is the prevalent religion in the USA, and its regressiveness on these issues has caused harm to women and other groups.
I wonder how many of the poll respondents met their spouses or life partners in the workplace. This discussion has to recognize that the "danger" of being alone with a co-worker of the opposite gender is that you are probably well-matched.
2
I don't like having one-on-one meetings with anyone at work, if I can help it. Those meetings are usually not enlightening in a good way.
2
Wow . . . how do you ever get anything done?!
3
Older women who've been in my profession for 20 years or more say that nothing has improved for women in the workplace; in fact, they often say it's worse. I see them, sad and resilient, approaching retirement with no happiness whatsoever. Prior to working in this male-dominated field, I worked in environments led by women. Based on my experience, having women in positions of leadership in an organization is a 100% guarantee of better behavior.
5
I was shocked when a woman who is very dear to me refused to have coffee with me one on one in a public place. I knew that she was very Christian and she explained that if we were seen alone, this might start rumors about our relationship.
After some thought, I accepted her terms of friendship and am careful never to be alone with her, not to use terms of endearment that I use with other women I like, and never to hug her except in the presence of my wife, who is a good friend of hers.
It makes me a little sad, but I respect her thinking, and still enjoy being friends with her.
After some thought, I accepted her terms of friendship and am careful never to be alone with her, not to use terms of endearment that I use with other women I like, and never to hug her except in the presence of my wife, who is a good friend of hers.
It makes me a little sad, but I respect her thinking, and still enjoy being friends with her.
2
I'm in an industry that holds quarterly meetings, usually at convention centers attached to large hotels. There is alway a free night, where everyone has a stipend for food & drink. I respect my colleagues & they respect me. I find this whole survey deeply depressing.
12
Love your name. And " well heeled". Kudos.
1
Thank you, friend...;-)
I can't say that it's fear I feel being alone with someone of the opposite sex. I've long had many friends of the opposite sex, and real meaningful relationships with them that didn't ruffle my long marriage in any way. However, I have found at times that despite my respectful and bland interactions with some people, their perceptions have occasionally led them to different truths about what we "shared," sometimes extremely different! For that reason, I limit my interactions with the opposite sex to those that occur in public, or among other people. That way, there's at least no outward impression of impropriety. I can't control the perceptions of others. I can only control myself and my reactions. At the very least, by keeping things out in the open, it limits the chances of misunderstandings about intimacy levels.
3
Perhaps I am wrong, but count me as one who is very cautious in any contact with women in professional or ordinary life situations. It seems to me that anything a man does can be misinterpreted and taken as a cause for complaint or alarm. Since I don't want anything taken in a negative light, the best thing is to avoid contact or keep everything at a minimal level. Mainly, this is because I believe that we have entered a time where, no matter what, the male is always wrong until proven otherwise.
This is from the column in regard to women:
"They are treated differently not just on the golf course or in the boardroom, but in daily episodes large and small, at work and in their social lives."
You bet. It is dangerous to do otherwise. I learned this as a child of 7 growing up when any innocent contact with girls on a playground could be turned into something causing alarm with their mothers.
We are a society oriented around complaint and a never ending quest to make everything perfect and our professional and social lives suffer.
By the way, the Mike Pence practice in regard to social contact with any woman other than his wife is known as the "Billy Graham Rule" which Graham used to project an image of marriage based morality and to protect himself from allegations and temptations.
I am not afraid to socialize with women. i enjoy their company usually more than men, but, in the suburbs, it is not really possible because of the overtones or assumptions in such meetings.
This is from the column in regard to women:
"They are treated differently not just on the golf course or in the boardroom, but in daily episodes large and small, at work and in their social lives."
You bet. It is dangerous to do otherwise. I learned this as a child of 7 growing up when any innocent contact with girls on a playground could be turned into something causing alarm with their mothers.
We are a society oriented around complaint and a never ending quest to make everything perfect and our professional and social lives suffer.
By the way, the Mike Pence practice in regard to social contact with any woman other than his wife is known as the "Billy Graham Rule" which Graham used to project an image of marriage based morality and to protect himself from allegations and temptations.
I am not afraid to socialize with women. i enjoy their company usually more than men, but, in the suburbs, it is not really possible because of the overtones or assumptions in such meetings.
11
This is the saddest thing I've read in awhile - that, as a 7 yr old, you learned to avoid playing with peers who happened to be female! School age children are learning to socialize with one another as part of their development. If 1/2 of that group was excluded from you at that early age (for NO reason whatsoever other than gender), then you were denied a perfectly normal upbringing. Girls & boys playing together are learning valuable life lessons & any adult who interferes with that is being abusive to children. In countries where kids used to be sent off to boarding schools to separate the sexes, hard lessons are now being learned about the effects of this artificial separation, especially for boys.
As for Mike Pence & his ilk, they need to remember that Jesus lived & travelled with many women as his closest advisors. he was in his late 20's & women were his closest companions, as they were with his disciples.
As for Mike Pence & his ilk, they need to remember that Jesus lived & travelled with many women as his closest advisors. he was in his late 20's & women were his closest companions, as they were with his disciples.
1
What I learned is that boys were in the wrong if there was any question about the normal things kids do if any questions were raised. I passed this along because I have heard and read that many other boys had similar experiences. The idea I got is that girls were dangerous. We always played cowboys and Indians and pretend battles and stuff like that. My cousin in Texas, Linda, where we spent a good part of every summer would have been called a Tom Boy and she could do anything we would do and probably better.
What I have learned as an adult is that any man is suspect around women unless he is known or part of a known group. Outside of a controlled social setting, a male has to somehow establish that he is not in any way a threat. Sorry, that's the way I see it.
What I have learned as an adult is that any man is suspect around women unless he is known or part of a known group. Outside of a controlled social setting, a male has to somehow establish that he is not in any way a threat. Sorry, that's the way I see it.
The charts speak for themselves. In general women do not feel it is appropriate to have :"one-on-one" time with a man in social situations, even those, (although not specifically differentiated), inherent to conferences or other professional/business related off-site activities. How then can an intimate WORKING RELATIONSHIP, truly necessary in many fields, be established when there is this barrier of mistrust?
And no, I do not have the absolute answer. Only the observation that without responsible adults acting responsibly, without WORKING RELATIONSHIPS engaged without predisposed bias, "equality" will never be achieved.
And no, I do not have the absolute answer. Only the observation that without responsible adults acting responsibly, without WORKING RELATIONSHIPS engaged without predisposed bias, "equality" will never be achieved.
5
These results are meaningless -- there was clearly no rigorous statistical methodology used in designing the questions.
I'm an atheist, college-educated white man. I abhor the sexism that is rampant throughout the world, including in our society.
However, I am also experienced enough to realize that it is risky for someone who is in a committed relationship to become intimate with a potentially attractive person other than his or her partner. So, a work meeting in an open or visible space (business conference rooms should have windows) is fine, as long as the meeting remains professional.
But I believe that dinner, drinks, etc. are risky choices, even when a person is fully committed to fidelity to their partner. Why? Because we are human. We're wired to feel attraction based on our sexual orientation, and we're wired to have those feelings grow stronger as we become more familiar or intimate with someone. Maybe you are sure you'd never do such a thing, but you don't know about the other person. And you have less control over your thoughts than you realize -- see David Eagleman's fascinating book "Incognito," particularly the first paragraphs of chapter 4 and the section "BEAUTY: SO PALPABLY AND FLAGRANTLY MADE FOR ALL ETERNITY TO BE LOVED".
Also relevant for some other current problems in our country, is the "illusion-of-truth effect:" you are more likely to believe a statement is true if you have heard it before -- whether or not it is actually true.
I'm an atheist, college-educated white man. I abhor the sexism that is rampant throughout the world, including in our society.
However, I am also experienced enough to realize that it is risky for someone who is in a committed relationship to become intimate with a potentially attractive person other than his or her partner. So, a work meeting in an open or visible space (business conference rooms should have windows) is fine, as long as the meeting remains professional.
But I believe that dinner, drinks, etc. are risky choices, even when a person is fully committed to fidelity to their partner. Why? Because we are human. We're wired to feel attraction based on our sexual orientation, and we're wired to have those feelings grow stronger as we become more familiar or intimate with someone. Maybe you are sure you'd never do such a thing, but you don't know about the other person. And you have less control over your thoughts than you realize -- see David Eagleman's fascinating book "Incognito," particularly the first paragraphs of chapter 4 and the section "BEAUTY: SO PALPABLY AND FLAGRANTLY MADE FOR ALL ETERNITY TO BE LOVED".
Also relevant for some other current problems in our country, is the "illusion-of-truth effect:" you are more likely to believe a statement is true if you have heard it before -- whether or not it is actually true.
9
"However"
Sadly, there is nothing surprising about an atheist, college-educated white man who claims to abhor sexism still promoting sexist norms. Dress it up however you like, you're still avoiding the "opportunity to sin" on the presumption that an attractive woman can't help but be a temptation and you can't practice self-control. Trust that you are better than that.
Sadly, there is nothing surprising about an atheist, college-educated white man who claims to abhor sexism still promoting sexist norms. Dress it up however you like, you're still avoiding the "opportunity to sin" on the presumption that an attractive woman can't help but be a temptation and you can't practice self-control. Trust that you are better than that.
I have worked with, for, and managed women throughout my professional career. My wife and I both have our masters and are both religious and raising our sons Catholic. I will be with my wife for 30 years in a month. In that time I have traveled alone with coworkers of the opposite sex, had drinks, dinner, lunch, and even exercised with female coworkers (a run, bike ride, etc). I attribute my successful relationships with coworkers to the examples my parents gave me and my strong close relationship with my younger sister. My wife and I have a deep trust and throughout our 30 years there has never been an incident where a relationship in my professional life communicated a lack of respect for our marriage/partnership or gave reason to jeopardize the trust we have for each other. I also believe I have done a good job identifying and working in workplaces with a culture supporting equality and where a safe and supportive work environment exists, including the presence of stated policy and culturally understood rules of what would not be tolerated. In my opinion, to self-impose rules such as these demonstrates a lack of emotional maturity and in purely competitive terms, puts an individual and probably an organization at a disadvantage in terms of long-term effectiveness.
176
I think we can project good wholesome boundaries. when we do that, it signals safety and also a sense that unwholesome or troublesome conduct would be rejected. our signals matter. this fellow probably brings a strong presence with him.
3
Thank you, "Mourning News"! I grew up a science nerd. Most of my close friends were male. I became a physician 35-plus years ago and spent many hours all times of night and day with men, getting an education and providing good patient care. Safely, respectfully, and without problems, as colleagues. It bothers me that I cannot socialize with many of these men unless the spouse, with whom I have nothing in common, is accompanying. Essentially, I can have no male friends unless it is a package deal. And, yes, I have a strong, long-term marriage.
Unfortunately not everyone is like you and your wife. And it is also high risk professionally to be put into a vulnerable position in non-office settings.
Two things. Those who fear being alone are either predators or their spouse/partners are extremely jealous. We are all adults and must learn to act so, professionally and socially. Education is the key here as is religiosity. Those who call themselves religious tend to set up ground rules that are unrealistic and false. There is also the issue of respect for the other, male or female. It is time we got a grip on this issue rather than hiding behind not being alone with the opposite sex. Time to grow up and be adults.
15
We have all been barraged in the media and brought up to date with decades of Trump's bad behavior (illegal behavior) around women when alone with them... yet the Evangelicals voted 88% for him anyway. What woman in their right mind would want to be alone with him now? Judging from his Evangelical crowd today, plenty of women would be fine being alone with him.
Stepping away for a second from some one forcing themselves on another; some men and some women use business and friendly social settings to start their seduction of someone that they are interested in. Isn't that at the heart of this conversation? Some men and women don't see marriage as a boundary when they are seeking a new sexual partner. Whoever is in power in those situations (whoever is the boss at work) can attempt to dictate the nature of that interaction ( usually men). If they are co-equals in the setting, then it is about the chemistry between them and their commitments to their spouses. And yes, anecdotally, it is also possible for a woman to set out to seduce their boss or fellow worker.
How about this scenario; Having a cup of coffee or breakfast? In other words remove any possibility of alcohol and I bet you would have a different outcome. I am guessing that many of the people seeing these situations as inappropriate do not trust themselves or the opposite party if under the influence.
It is good to have these conversations so that people can take a moment to think it out. We'll get there.
Stepping away for a second from some one forcing themselves on another; some men and some women use business and friendly social settings to start their seduction of someone that they are interested in. Isn't that at the heart of this conversation? Some men and women don't see marriage as a boundary when they are seeking a new sexual partner. Whoever is in power in those situations (whoever is the boss at work) can attempt to dictate the nature of that interaction ( usually men). If they are co-equals in the setting, then it is about the chemistry between them and their commitments to their spouses. And yes, anecdotally, it is also possible for a woman to set out to seduce their boss or fellow worker.
How about this scenario; Having a cup of coffee or breakfast? In other words remove any possibility of alcohol and I bet you would have a different outcome. I am guessing that many of the people seeing these situations as inappropriate do not trust themselves or the opposite party if under the influence.
It is good to have these conversations so that people can take a moment to think it out. We'll get there.
4
Breakfast??!! But people might think you spent the night together!
(just kidding - but really, it is all rather fraught, unfortunately)
(just kidding - but really, it is all rather fraught, unfortunately)
1
I was very relaxed about having friends of the opposite sex until a divorced woman that my husband knew at work insinuated herself into his life a little too much. I'm pretty progressive, but unfortunately I'm with Pence on this one now.
13
and Pence is in a position of power, which acts as an inadvertent seductive draw, which he takes into account in his prohibition
1
Doubtful that with the weaponization of Title IX on college campuses this will get better.
6
Can this data be broken down by work environment of the respondent? I can easily envision a spouse who works in a different milieu having their personal experience, or lack of experience impact their response to this question.
1
I think in general I'd agree drinks or dinner are inappropriate. But, it would depend entirely on the woman and whether we felt comfortable being in a private setting together. Some women tend to prefer distance from male colleagues, and that's perfectly fine. Others like to make friends, which is also fine. I'd have no problem meeting a friend outside of the work setting regardless of gender.
As for meetings, car rides, and lunch, I feel all of those should be actively encouraged. Meetings in particular need to be gender-blind; their purpose is to make decisions and get work done. Getting caught up on gender when the firm's success is on the line is unacceptable.
As for meetings, car rides, and lunch, I feel all of those should be actively encouraged. Meetings in particular need to be gender-blind; their purpose is to make decisions and get work done. Getting caught up on gender when the firm's success is on the line is unacceptable.
5
I was under the impression that this was the norm 45 years ago (when I was 18 and first entering the adult world), but not now. During my career I met and socialized with men, often one-on-one, and didn't think anything of it. I'm surprised to see how pervasive the older norm continues to be.
13
I always do my very best to treat everyone I interact with daily with dignity and respect at all times. Fortunately this has not stopped me from making friends in the workplace, and finding that there are some delightful people whose company I enjoy inside and outside of the workplace. Gender is not an issue. Treating each other with mutual respect, kindness and decency is the way we conduct ourselves. Doing that has given us a wonderful supportive network of friends that contribute to our ability to maintain happy and healthy lives. To exclude someone from being a friend because they are of the opposite gender, and because people will make assumptions and gossip is giving in to the tyranny of small minds. Making friends is more challenging once the school years are over, and life becomes more intense with career and family. Be glad to find friends when the opportunity presents itself, and if that opportunity is in the workplace, why shouldn't it be acceptable; and if that friend is someone of the opposite gender why should that be suspect? Cherish friendships when and where you find them, and don't be afraid of what others may think, or say, because it shows what they are all about; not what you are all about.
22
new workplace from job transfer at age 58 - I guess I am not good looking or too obviously available - all men, within one second of being introduced, in the workplace, start to signal to me that they are NOT interested, they are bored, disgusted, done with me..
as being I am myself, I cannot tell you the source of the obvious disrespect, repugnance, desire to be rid of , etc..
but I can tell you that after a few months of me non- verbally (with great
silent pointed effort on my part) communicating my non-interest in the men as a love interest, they calm down! we are here for work, guys!!
Can it be that ALL men see themselves as desireable, all the time??
god help us.. and a sense of humor..
as being I am myself, I cannot tell you the source of the obvious disrespect, repugnance, desire to be rid of , etc..
but I can tell you that after a few months of me non- verbally (with great
silent pointed effort on my part) communicating my non-interest in the men as a love interest, they calm down! we are here for work, guys!!
Can it be that ALL men see themselves as desireable, all the time??
god help us.. and a sense of humor..
14
absolutely dead on
1
Our litigious society has made us fearful of even each other. What kind of a world do we live in when a man and woman can't interact respectfully, professionally and free of fear?
16
It's called letting the extremes take over....ie...a frat house mentality at Fox News or the extreme feminist neuter men mentality at many other companies.
1
I don't blame men for shunning women in the business world. If anything goes wrong, all she has to do to gain leverage is file a sex discrimination suit, then the man settles. Alcohol only makes it worse. These women do not take responsibility for their actions and how they leverage their sexuality for position.
17
Men are less apprehensive than women according to this article. Men may be afraid of legal action but women are afraid of actually being sexually assaulted or physically hurt. And they are worried about being punished in the workplace if they spurn advances. The NYT's recent article on women in the tech industry underscores that this is still a real problem. Most women, including myself, have had to deal with unsolicited and undesired physical contact in the workplace and the internal questions of "Am I making too much about something that isn't a big deal" or "I know that this is totally inappropriate but if I complain will I be the first to be laid off".
To those saying that men should follow strict rules of fraternization since women will irresponsibly file spurious sex discrimination suits: please recall that most women do not report incidents of sexual harassment. Even when they do report incidents, those incidents are often dismissed or ignored until the company is forced to deal with it (e.g. Uber). The problem is entitled men and a system that props them up, not dishonest women.
1
Perhaps if the offending men learn not to sexually harass women, then all of these surrounding issues will cease to exist.
I think, for too many the only skills of relating to another person is by objectifying them as a sexual conquest or sexual object. I don't think it's only men objectifying women, although my experience is as a woman and is at the unwanted attention by men. My husbands experience is as a man. As an artist, was harassed as part of his workplace by men, continuously and eventually avoided these jobs generally. From reading the comments I also see an interesting scenario, the college student and the professor.
As a society we have no longer have the rules to forbid one on one meetings of unmarried people. It seems the individuals that can't seem to handle the pressure have serious boundary issues we need to begin to address as a culture. Going from civil to rape because of opportunity seems like a real problem. I know, let's give everyone a gun!
As a society we have no longer have the rules to forbid one on one meetings of unmarried people. It seems the individuals that can't seem to handle the pressure have serious boundary issues we need to begin to address as a culture. Going from civil to rape because of opportunity seems like a real problem. I know, let's give everyone a gun!
4
Let's just all wear body cams. After all, surveillance isn't only for the government.
9
Do people really care what others might think? Do married men not trust themselves to be alone with a woman? Do married women not trust a man to be alone with them?
That women, young women in particular, are more cautious in most of these situations might stem from the fact that they are more likely to be the victims of sexual harassment, and perhaps have been. That's not so surprising.
But 29 percent of men feel it's inappropriate to drive in a car alone with a woman who is not their spouse? Really? What's the thinking there?
Is it that men are friends with men, and women are friends with women, and neither feels they can be friends with each other without sex or gossip getting in the way? That's messed up.
That women, young women in particular, are more cautious in most of these situations might stem from the fact that they are more likely to be the victims of sexual harassment, and perhaps have been. That's not so surprising.
But 29 percent of men feel it's inappropriate to drive in a car alone with a woman who is not their spouse? Really? What's the thinking there?
Is it that men are friends with men, and women are friends with women, and neither feels they can be friends with each other without sex or gossip getting in the way? That's messed up.
7
We aren't disembodied rational minds but humans dealing with millions of years of evolutionary pressures. Our thoughts are a riot of conflicting emotions. We do our best to focus on the business at hand and tamp down other urges.
It is amazing that we get through the day at all.
I appreciate the NY Times digging a little deeper behind the facade of civilized behavior.
It is amazing that we get through the day at all.
I appreciate the NY Times digging a little deeper behind the facade of civilized behavior.
7
This article starts with a feminist premise (which is unsurprising given female authorship and the fact that this is the New York Times, after all) and then builds almost exclusively on female sources. Moreover, the two men quoted are either clearly liberal (Mr. Hollinger) or implicitly risible (a construction worker (!) must guard against "temptation"). Mike Pence's practice has been treated with condescension and contempt in the liberal press.
Secular men have profound reason to be cautious. False accusations of harassment and misinterpreted actions are a minefield, and potentially can ruin one's reputation and life. It would be incredibly stupid to have dinner with a younger, female associate, particularly where even a single drink of alcohol was involved.
Women have largely engineered the hair-trigger climate of today's business world. If differentiating them is illegal, then opportunities for young men will diminish. Moreover, remember that civil rights laws only apply to employers with a threshold number of employees.
Secular men have profound reason to be cautious. False accusations of harassment and misinterpreted actions are a minefield, and potentially can ruin one's reputation and life. It would be incredibly stupid to have dinner with a younger, female associate, particularly where even a single drink of alcohol was involved.
Women have largely engineered the hair-trigger climate of today's business world. If differentiating them is illegal, then opportunities for young men will diminish. Moreover, remember that civil rights laws only apply to employers with a threshold number of employees.
9
Although I do not personally share the paranoia implicit in the Article, segregation by gender under the situations discussed may indeed eliminate the potential for harassment, infidelity and violation of faith. At the same time, sanitizing your life to that degree has its own set of consequences so be careful what you wish for. A life fully lived is a risk/reward proposition and rigid rules of the type discussed will ultimately limit the feeling of being alive.
1
Actually, three males were quoted, not two. The third, a sole practitioner of no particular distinction, Mr. Rahbar, serves only to remind us of the legal consequences of engaging in gender discrimination--again, entirely consistent with the premise of the article.
1
Wow what an imagination. And speaking of snowflakes as the RW is often apt to do...
It's not that unmonitored meetings with women are "inappropriate" for a man, it's that they can be perilous.
Sad to say, we now live a world where a gender-based accusation can ruin one's life, regardless of whether it has any basis in fact. Better to avoid "he said - she said" when "he" has no chance of emerging untarnished.
Sad to say, we now live a world where a gender-based accusation can ruin one's life, regardless of whether it has any basis in fact. Better to avoid "he said - she said" when "he" has no chance of emerging untarnished.
7
It was not until I was halfway through reading this piece that I realised that it was not intended to be comedically ironic. Having re-read it I am now at a complete loss.
We're in the middle of a run of the Handmaid's Tale on TV in the UK. I'm not sure if I'm not more disturbed by this "Upshot" column and the opinion poll that it's based on, than I am by the television version of Margaret Atwood's 30-year old vision.
Are you for real?
We're in the middle of a run of the Handmaid's Tale on TV in the UK. I'm not sure if I'm not more disturbed by this "Upshot" column and the opinion poll that it's based on, than I am by the television version of Margaret Atwood's 30-year old vision.
Are you for real?
15
i just wonder how this research would shake out if data were (yes, the word data is plural) gathered in the EU. Clearly, religious people are some of the most paranoid individuals on the planet. And, sadly, this paranoia has become extended to the average American college campus, where female students live in imaginary fear. Too bad.
7
The corporate organization specializes in human automatons interacting through pseudo-human formalities. The man-woman thing is just an instance of these policies.
5
I have a gay male colleague who finds it musing that he is allowed to meet behind a closed door with a man, but not a woman.
I say it depends--meet alone or have lunch with a same age, also married colleague I've worked with for a decade is one thing; meet alone or have lunch with a single, much younger fellow who was my student until a couple of weeks ago is another.
I say it depends--meet alone or have lunch with a same age, also married colleague I've worked with for a decade is one thing; meet alone or have lunch with a single, much younger fellow who was my student until a couple of weeks ago is another.
2
SO .....
How does a male boss review a female employee?
How does a female boss review a male employee?
How does either make a complaint?
Does a woman feel safer with a gang of men?
Does a man feel safer with a gang of women?
Is America moving towards a society where men and women never interact? If so I think you're fighting the wrong people - ISIS are on your side.
How does a male boss review a female employee?
How does a female boss review a male employee?
How does either make a complaint?
Does a woman feel safer with a gang of men?
Does a man feel safer with a gang of women?
Is America moving towards a society where men and women never interact? If so I think you're fighting the wrong people - ISIS are on your side.
23
Not just a glass ceiling but a glass wall.
8
Assume all conversations on being recorded. Paranoid? Hardly, just look at Fox' payouts, most based on clandestine recordings, some inspired by employees collaborating with lawyers, both seeking million dollar settlements. Don't "fish off the company pier." Be cool, professionally social. And don't drink and tweet!
2
Eh?- making the jump to "they're treated differently,,,, in daily episodes large and small." from that data that shows that women THEMSELVES think (more than men in some cases) that certain meetings, which at face value are non-intrusive behavior, as not being appropriate.
I'm not denying sexual harassment-it obviously exists. The graph had nothing to do with how women are "being treated".
It's not just men who think sex is implicit in interactions. By this graph women even more so think so, and it might not always be out of a feeling of feeling possible harassment. Feelings of infidelity or fear or attraction can't be dismissed either.
I'm not denying sexual harassment-it obviously exists. The graph had nothing to do with how women are "being treated".
It's not just men who think sex is implicit in interactions. By this graph women even more so think so, and it might not always be out of a feeling of feeling possible harassment. Feelings of infidelity or fear or attraction can't be dismissed either.
3
The law firm that I work for is closed tomorrow. My male supervising attorney and I, however, have work that needs to get done, so it will just be two of us in his office. No receptionist. No other attorneys. No paralegals. He may even suggest we grab lunch together - alone. Oh no! How will I resist him? How will he manage not to act inappropriately towards me? What will people say? Shall I already start to plan my false accusations against him? How will we ever explain this to our spouses?
Grow up, America! It's just a co-worker.
Grow up, America! It's just a co-worker.
153
You are dismissing the real harassment cases that happen in precisely these situations. Just because it doesn't/hasn't happened to you, doesn't mean it hasn't happened to others.
nearly 4 out of 10 women think driving in a car with someone who is not your spouse is not appropriate?
i'd like more information on who these women are
level of education
part of the country they live in
age -
and btw, not everyone is married to the opposite gender -
i'd like more information on who these women are
level of education
part of the country they live in
age -
and btw, not everyone is married to the opposite gender -
12
My company requires all employees to take an online "do's and don'ts" course every year. The purposes of this requirement are to shield the company from liability and to warn all male employees that if there is a single complaint against you, you're out. So, yes, male-female work meetings are never private, alcohol is banned from all company social functions, and socializing outside work is simply not done. These are very sensible rules, it seems to me. Surely, it's much the same at the NYT?
4
So as a female subordinate to a male supervisor (or vice versa) I can expect to have performance reviews conducted with a third party present? Those discussions should be private.
And as a female Six Sigma practitioner interviewing numerous people (most of whom are men, given the industry I work in) to develop data to characterize the current state of a situation requiring improvement, I can't have a one-on one-private meeting in which the interviewee can be free to express an unpopular opinion?
This makes no sense to me and penalizes whoever is opposite gender to his or her supervisor or colleagues.
And as a female Six Sigma practitioner interviewing numerous people (most of whom are men, given the industry I work in) to develop data to characterize the current state of a situation requiring improvement, I can't have a one-on one-private meeting in which the interviewee can be free to express an unpopular opinion?
This makes no sense to me and penalizes whoever is opposite gender to his or her supervisor or colleagues.
4
"The purposes of this requirement are to shield the company from liability and to warn all male employees that if there is a single complaint against you, you're out."
Are male employees specifically targeted? If so, I'd love soooo much for someone, anyone, to slap a discrimination suit on your company. Let them pay through their PC nose. I also wonder how legal it is in Canada to terminate an employee on a single complaint, if not substantiated? It would be interesting to see the language used in whatever written document this "promise" was printed on; to see how easy a wrongful termination suit would be to organize.
Are male employees specifically targeted? If so, I'd love soooo much for someone, anyone, to slap a discrimination suit on your company. Let them pay through their PC nose. I also wonder how legal it is in Canada to terminate an employee on a single complaint, if not substantiated? It would be interesting to see the language used in whatever written document this "promise" was printed on; to see how easy a wrongful termination suit would be to organize.
1
As a woman in the workforce, I have all these with male colleagues- driven in a car to an appt, had lunch, dinner, drinks, etc. Even taken business trips (a lot of these encounters happen on business trips). I thought nothing of it and nothing untoward happened. We were all adults, in most cases involved in relationships or marriages.
Of course this is well over 10 years - it's too bad if times have changed so much that men and women are now fearful of these engagements. I think it's also bad for women in the workforce.
Of course this is well over 10 years - it's too bad if times have changed so much that men and women are now fearful of these engagements. I think it's also bad for women in the workforce.
27
The inevitable problem with this survey is that those who answered it are generalizing about the "opposite sex"; I've learned during my long work life never to do that about anyone based on gender, or other factors such as race or sexual preference. Which is to say, there are some people one can meet or dine, or travel privately with, and there are some with whom one should not. The trick is to relate to people as the individuals they are, and conduct yourself accordingly.
19
This past Thursday I had dinner and a drink with a CEO (who is male). While we mostly talked non-work (e.g politics, stories of growing up, spouses), we DID venture into work conversation for about 5 minutes - and as a result of that 5 MINUTE conversation we agreed to take 2 critical actions that affect how we work together and the leadership in the business.
Far too often, women lose out on conversations like these because we are not around at dinner, drinks, golf, etc. I don't think it's helpful for men OR women to exclude women from these activities. At the same time, the dynamics of sex are real - and I do think it makes sense to take steps to a) be clear about intention and b) mitigate misunderstanding. Some of my preferred approaches include:
* Talking about spouses
* Meeting in a very public place
* Clearly and casually stating some kind of boundary up front so that I may reinforce it any time (e.g. gotta go by X to finish our project, 1 drink and then I'm off)
* Commenting on our work connection (to remind us both of the reason we are meeting)
* Pick a table that allows for sitting across from one another
Far too often, women lose out on conversations like these because we are not around at dinner, drinks, golf, etc. I don't think it's helpful for men OR women to exclude women from these activities. At the same time, the dynamics of sex are real - and I do think it makes sense to take steps to a) be clear about intention and b) mitigate misunderstanding. Some of my preferred approaches include:
* Talking about spouses
* Meeting in a very public place
* Clearly and casually stating some kind of boundary up front so that I may reinforce it any time (e.g. gotta go by X to finish our project, 1 drink and then I'm off)
* Commenting on our work connection (to remind us both of the reason we are meeting)
* Pick a table that allows for sitting across from one another
24
Whenever you treat people with dignity, respect and as equals, no matter the situation, ( professionally or privately ) one does not need to look at graphs and other such things.
One does not have to worry about lawsuits either.
Just saying.
One does not have to worry about lawsuits either.
Just saying.
55
No. Some individuals are contrary, malevolent or crazy. Lucky you not having crossed paths with them.
4
If only that were true
1
This survey is both startling and disheartening. Who were the workers polled? Certainly not any of the hundreds of business people I have worked with.
12
This article involves the idea of dividing people into those who think encounters are either appropriate or not. However, most people I know don't have a general principle like that, but decide on the basis of the specific person and circumstance. A woman may comfortably go to lunch with one male colleague but be wary of two others and afraid of a third. Some men are predators; some women are also. Some men are kind and supportive to female colleagues to the point where junior women may trust them much more than any female boss.
11
I have worked for and with women my entire career, and as long as I stay open-minded and professional, I don't see any harm in it. This is the sort of thing that might cause strait-laced conservative men to always be on their guard, but I don't give this a second thought while at or away from work. I can't afford to.
21
I found this article somewhat surprising and distressing.
It seems that a lot of men out there see women as some kind of potential "temptress" or else a potential source of a lawsuit for sexual harassment. Are women that scary?
I can understand a woman who was a victim of sexual harassment wanting to take precautions concerning these types of meetings, but men being afraid of what might happen, or what having a one on one meeting with a woman might do to their reputation?
What if it's a boss meeting with an employee of the opposite sex to discuss next week`s international conference? Should they call for a older chaperone to be present during the discussion in case things get out of hand?
One notices that apparently the better educated are more open to these meetings, but still 18% of men who have post-graduate degrees believe that work meetings alone with women are inappropriate. (Notice the 18% figure doesn't budge between Bachelor's degree educated and Post-graduate degree educated men, so while their academic knowledge increases their opinions of inter-sex work collaborations remain the same)! That`s almost one in five!
I think there's still some educating to do! But a different type of educating..
It seems that a lot of men out there see women as some kind of potential "temptress" or else a potential source of a lawsuit for sexual harassment. Are women that scary?
I can understand a woman who was a victim of sexual harassment wanting to take precautions concerning these types of meetings, but men being afraid of what might happen, or what having a one on one meeting with a woman might do to their reputation?
What if it's a boss meeting with an employee of the opposite sex to discuss next week`s international conference? Should they call for a older chaperone to be present during the discussion in case things get out of hand?
One notices that apparently the better educated are more open to these meetings, but still 18% of men who have post-graduate degrees believe that work meetings alone with women are inappropriate. (Notice the 18% figure doesn't budge between Bachelor's degree educated and Post-graduate degree educated men, so while their academic knowledge increases their opinions of inter-sex work collaborations remain the same)! That`s almost one in five!
I think there's still some educating to do! But a different type of educating..
13
Chris Rock: "A man... is as faithful... as his options."
Perfect comedy because it's so often true.
Perfect comedy because it's so often true.
1
I agree with much in this article. I agree with Vice President Pence that the only woman with whom a man may dine alone is his wife or a steady girlfriend as the case may be. I would imagine that liberals, especially those as depicted in the television show, "Younger", who tend to bounce around between partners, have no problem with whom they are seen.
1
The problem is that you "imagine". i.e. you don;t know for sure. Get out and meet more people, you might be surprised.
So you wouldn't eat with your sister, your mother, or your niece? Because....why?
1
Of course it's the majority of people who are wrong, not the out of touch and continuously wrong New York Times. It's common sense folks, the majority of affairs start with casual "innocent" one-on-one meetings and dinners -- to assume that you're somehow above the realm of temptation when it comes to being faithful to your spouse is simply not understanding the deceitfulness of the human heart, especially our own.
There is no price, whether it be insults, money, or some perceived satisfaction when it comes to preserving your marriage and family. Sadly, that's something we're losing in today's "progressive" world. The result is destroyed relationships and sadness. Can some folks "handle" these situations? I'm sure there are some that can. But the sad reality is that for those that can't, destruction only follows. Why risk it?
There is no price, whether it be insults, money, or some perceived satisfaction when it comes to preserving your marriage and family. Sadly, that's something we're losing in today's "progressive" world. The result is destroyed relationships and sadness. Can some folks "handle" these situations? I'm sure there are some that can. But the sad reality is that for those that can't, destruction only follows. Why risk it?
9
Well, Kris, any marriage as vulnerable as the kind you describe deserves to be destroyed.
As to the many, many, many citations of false accusations of harassment, boys, you sound like the kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar--"I didn't do it, it's not me, don't believe you're lying eyes, I deny it, I deny it, I deny it!"
Perhaps. boys, rather than inadvertently expose yourself in the NYT, you might migrate to Reddit, where they have several boards for cowardly sexual predators who simply can't believe their centuries-old privilege to treat women as objects is being challenged.
As to the many, many, many citations of false accusations of harassment, boys, you sound like the kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar--"I didn't do it, it's not me, don't believe you're lying eyes, I deny it, I deny it, I deny it!"
Perhaps. boys, rather than inadvertently expose yourself in the NYT, you might migrate to Reddit, where they have several boards for cowardly sexual predators who simply can't believe their centuries-old privilege to treat women as objects is being challenged.
1
Guaranteed prescription: Lock yourself in your home and don't answer the door, temptation is everywhere!
1
Oh, please. If your marriage is so fragile that you can't have a friend of a different gender (or if you're gay, someone of the same gender), it's already on the rocks. How stupid. Are people that weak?
2
Thank god I am not an American man and/or living in America.
The conflation of Puritan values and myopic Feminism has emasculated a whole generation of men, that is finding solace in Donald Trump, crystal meth and/or trips to Asian bordellos.
By far the most obnoxious clients in the fashion industry that I have had over 30 years (I'm French) have been American women executives. Arrogant, brash, narcissistic and vain. Made John Galliano look like an angel.
The conflation of Puritan values and myopic Feminism has emasculated a whole generation of men, that is finding solace in Donald Trump, crystal meth and/or trips to Asian bordellos.
By far the most obnoxious clients in the fashion industry that I have had over 30 years (I'm French) have been American women executives. Arrogant, brash, narcissistic and vain. Made John Galliano look like an angel.
58
French women suffer from massive sexism and have been staging protests against sexual harassment for years now. LePen is no feminist and did quite well.
Maybe you need to cast your net a little wider. I can assure you that there are plenty of women execs in the U.S. who are professional, smart, and capable. And from your blanket statements about men and women, I get the feeling a strong woman equates to "brash, narcissistic, and vain" in your book. I'm glad you're not American either!
2
Men aren't emasculated here. Far from it. If they are, they've chosen to be. Many are resentful that women aren't satisfied to stay home barefoot and pregnant, but not all. Many like it that someone else is earning a paycheck. Your portrait is more than a bit exaggerated, but thanks for the humor.
2
Below are the results from the TODAY Show (3/31/2017)
Are you OK with your spouse dining alone with the opposite sex?
YES : 42% NO : 58 %
Finding Americans more conservative than the Upshot averaged over women and men:
Yes : 39% No : 49%
Link
http://www.today.com/health/mike-pence-rule-about-dining-only-wife-spark...
http://www.today.com/health/mike-pence-rule-about-dining-only-wife-spark...
Are you OK with your spouse dining alone with the opposite sex?
YES : 42% NO : 58 %
Finding Americans more conservative than the Upshot averaged over women and men:
Yes : 39% No : 49%
Link
http://www.today.com/health/mike-pence-rule-about-dining-only-wife-spark...
http://www.today.com/health/mike-pence-rule-about-dining-only-wife-spark...
1
Wow. I think this us sad. I was alone with both men and women at work at times. I never thought anything of it. I was a teacher at a school where half the staff was male. I am a female. Were there ever people I did not want to be alone with? Sure, but it had nothing to do with their sex. Different time, I guess. I'm 69.
27
AGree.
1
No woman is responsible for being harassed no matter what she wears or how she looks---no more than a wealthy person is guilty for being robbed. But it puzzles me that in many photos of men and women, the men are covered head to toe because they know that it gives them authority and protection. The women, however, very often seemed compelled to voluntarily display as much skin as possible. Women need to find a way to dress that feels attractive but not seductive---especially in the work place.
28
To attract but not seduce - now there's a circle to square.
2
Men would love to wear t shirts and shorts on a hot day as women do with a short skirt etc.
But men are not allowed to dress for the weather.
But men are not allowed to dress for the weather.
Well, this sort of thing has been true too for any teacher with half a brain: You don't ever sit in a room alone with a student, not with a closed door. When you have to speak to a student privately, you sit at the desk closest to the classroom door, leave the door open, and speak quietly.
It's only good sense. But clearly in the world of business, in which deals are discovered over lunch or dinner and aided by a couple of martinis, women will be at a disadvantage.
As for Mike Pence: I am sure he wasn't thinking about the potential for a sexual harassment suit, but about God's frowning on any friendliness towards a woman not his wife. Pence is a holy-roller menace. It's bizarre that he's the one we'll get when that puffy old fraud Trump implodes.
It's only good sense. But clearly in the world of business, in which deals are discovered over lunch or dinner and aided by a couple of martinis, women will be at a disadvantage.
As for Mike Pence: I am sure he wasn't thinking about the potential for a sexual harassment suit, but about God's frowning on any friendliness towards a woman not his wife. Pence is a holy-roller menace. It's bizarre that he's the one we'll get when that puffy old fraud Trump implodes.
61
Love your last paragraph
4
I'd be leery of being alone with Mike Pence. The guy creeps me out.
468
Rats! You beat me to it!
1
Best. Comment. Ever.
Male fears of being alone with women are way overblown. Women are not going to rape, murder, beat or sexually harass men, while women are often at risk or rape, murder, assault and ubiquitous male violence.
Men believe that 50% of women's rape complaints are false. Even male police officers with less than eight years experience believe that 50% of all rape and sexual assault complaints are false. In reality, less than 2% of rape complaints turn out to be unfounded, a rate of false reporting lower than that of most other felonies. But the hateful misogynistic beliefs of males keep women from ever getting justice.
For centuries, the views of women have been influenced by an old Catholic text, the Malleus Maleficarum (The Hammer of the Witches) which provided the justification for the killing and burning of women as witches and satanic consorts in the Dark Ages and was the most widely circulated religious book for 200 years, second only to the Bible. The Malleus described women as dangerous and deceptive, consorts of demons. The belief that women cannot be believed remains strong today: jurors, judges, men all disbelieve women.
As a professional, I often meet with clients or colleagues over lunch or dinner, as does my husband. It would be a hindrance to have to avoid clients and colleagues of the other sex.
If men are really fearful that women are going to attack them over a restaurant table, maybe men should videotape or record all their interactions with women.
Men believe that 50% of women's rape complaints are false. Even male police officers with less than eight years experience believe that 50% of all rape and sexual assault complaints are false. In reality, less than 2% of rape complaints turn out to be unfounded, a rate of false reporting lower than that of most other felonies. But the hateful misogynistic beliefs of males keep women from ever getting justice.
For centuries, the views of women have been influenced by an old Catholic text, the Malleus Maleficarum (The Hammer of the Witches) which provided the justification for the killing and burning of women as witches and satanic consorts in the Dark Ages and was the most widely circulated religious book for 200 years, second only to the Bible. The Malleus described women as dangerous and deceptive, consorts of demons. The belief that women cannot be believed remains strong today: jurors, judges, men all disbelieve women.
As a professional, I often meet with clients or colleagues over lunch or dinner, as does my husband. It would be a hindrance to have to avoid clients and colleagues of the other sex.
If men are really fearful that women are going to attack them over a restaurant table, maybe men should videotape or record all their interactions with women.
33
Most men these days are not afraid a woman will attack them, but afraid they could be accused of sexual harassment as it's seems to be whatever a woman says it is these days so men get nervous. Even an accusation is tantamount to career suicide.
Why would a man want that risk when he could have a risk free meeting with a male colleague
Why would a man want that risk when he could have a risk free meeting with a male colleague
All it would take is one embittered female, and I - a (yucky) straight white male - am in trouble with all the Democrats and other crazed liberals. I NEVER meet alone with a female.
9
Because there are no embittered men out there?
1
Good thing. We hate being called "a" something. We are women. Try writing that again without making the woman into an object.
"A female?"
"Female" is an adjective used to describe animals and electronic parts.
Try calling us "women," for starters. Usually the men (sorry, "males") who are concerned about being "targeted" by "embittered females" are the ones who are acting like jerks.
"Female" is an adjective used to describe animals and electronic parts.
Try calling us "women," for starters. Usually the men (sorry, "males") who are concerned about being "targeted" by "embittered females" are the ones who are acting like jerks.
1
The second chart is labeled incorrectly. "Inappropriate" and "appropriate" should change places.
I often think our laws and regulations have hurt the cause of equality. In my career, I hired many women, who often turned out to be the best workers.
But I had two that turned the tables on me and accused me of sexual harassment. The complaint was that I had told an off-color joke a year earlier, in a non-work setting, off company premises. And they joined in with their own risqué jokes.
After that, I simply hired men. I felt freer to blow off steam, rib them about some work errors, and otherwise feel more relaxed in a hothouse environment.
These laws were drafted to help women, not to be abused by them for ulterior motives.
But I had two that turned the tables on me and accused me of sexual harassment. The complaint was that I had told an off-color joke a year earlier, in a non-work setting, off company premises. And they joined in with their own risqué jokes.
After that, I simply hired men. I felt freer to blow off steam, rib them about some work errors, and otherwise feel more relaxed in a hothouse environment.
These laws were drafted to help women, not to be abused by them for ulterior motives.
11
Pence-ism is rampant in America. People grow weaker, more foolish, and more fearful. No wonder we have such a classless, boorish 'president'. He fits right in.
13
Reading stuff like makes my head explode. What is wrong with us?
28
Even the dullest married people I know(like me) harbor pretend fantasies that they still have "got it". Women know that and it causes them to treat every interaction as a potential minefield (and i can't say I blame them). I do believe the media vastly overplays this with their "Fatal Attraction" type movies and Lifetime TV shows as it is a sure attention getter. The good news for women is that it almost never happens, and most dull guys(like me) would not even know what to do in a questionable situation and would insure nothing happened.
9
It's common sense, to avoid unjust suspicion.
At universities, a professor alone with a student of the opposite sex is automatically considered guilty of sexual harassment. No defense is permitted; facts are irrelevant.
As a result, most of us insist on a chaperone at any such meeting. Arranging that makes it harder to answer student questions or provide assistance.
At universities, a professor alone with a student of the opposite sex is automatically considered guilty of sexual harassment. No defense is permitted; facts are irrelevant.
As a result, most of us insist on a chaperone at any such meeting. Arranging that makes it harder to answer student questions or provide assistance.
6
This female Ph.D. retired from a male-dominated science 1.5 years ago, after a 31-year career. If I, or they, had been unable to be alone in a meeting or during a project with someone of the opposite sex, no work would ever have been done. Was I paid less than them? Yes. Was I ever subject to sexual harassment by any of them? No. I can honestly say that no man ever made a pass, said anything inappropriate, or tried to grope me. I was always polite and professional, and they were, too.
"Temptation is always a factor." Really? Why not focus on your job, and what you are in that meeting or on that job site to accomplish, and stop expecting real life to mimic what you see on the television and movies, where apparently no one ever gets any work done because their lives are all only about sexy times. I did see work place romances, but it was always mutual and consensual.
I never found it difficult to keep those two things, work and professional life, completely separate. Why do so many others? I guess I always thought of myself at work as a scientist first, and my sexuality somewhere further down that list of characteristics and not something that had anything to do with my job. Guess that's why I had a successful 31-year career.
"Temptation is always a factor." Really? Why not focus on your job, and what you are in that meeting or on that job site to accomplish, and stop expecting real life to mimic what you see on the television and movies, where apparently no one ever gets any work done because their lives are all only about sexy times. I did see work place romances, but it was always mutual and consensual.
I never found it difficult to keep those two things, work and professional life, completely separate. Why do so many others? I guess I always thought of myself at work as a scientist first, and my sexuality somewhere further down that list of characteristics and not something that had anything to do with my job. Guess that's why I had a successful 31-year career.
84
My experience is very similar to Patti's. As a female physician who graduated medical school in an era when women were just beginning to enter the field in greater numbers, I forged many friendly (non-romantic) relationships with my male colleagues. I am really shocked by this survey.
While it is always important to be on the lookout for sexual harassment and to avoid impropriety or extramarital relationships, both sexes can and do work together on a daily basis. I guess that we need to do more to promote this concept. The struggle continues.
While it is always important to be on the lookout for sexual harassment and to avoid impropriety or extramarital relationships, both sexes can and do work together on a daily basis. I guess that we need to do more to promote this concept. The struggle continues.
6
Christianity, Islam and Judaism are patriarchal religions that expressly declare that women are inferior. Why is it surprising that women are treated like trash?
15
i understand a little better why i don't understand American. Just crazy people who spend their time to avoid all the little pleasures of the life, sure than there is a deep problem in this country.
9
Actually, about the only person I'd be wary about doing any of these things with is Mike Pence.
19
You aren't alone, my friend.
Bring back chastity belts. This time make them his and hers.
5
So to summarize, women hold these views more than men, but if a man holds these views, he must be sexist or misogynist Why am I not surprised?
7
Opposite sex encounters in the office aren't problematic unless one of the participants makes them so. Social contacts outside the office should not be one on one if either participant is married. The problem is not the participants. It is that humans are sexually possessive and jealous by instinct, training and acculturation. Even "full disclosure" is going to fail over time. This is a fact of life in the real world, and denying it aids no one in the attempt to promote a less sexist work environment.