Jewish Women vs. the Jewish State

Perhaps Ms Sachs could think a little deeper about the situation and see it as a sign that all religion is made-up nonsense.

I'll try and help - if the Orthodox rabbis are wrong about gender separation, what makes you right about anything else that's taught in the Jewish religion? See? You pull one thread and the whole thing unravels.

Please direct your energies toward gender equality in everyday life, not an equal right to mumble some prayers to no one in front of a bunch of rocks.

Sorry to be contrary but I was raised Orthodox and now have what my workmates call "my religion." Orthodox are taught to believe that women carry the original sin: knowledge of good and evil.

The men know that they're weak, as well and deal with it by separating from women. In parochial school, we terrified our male teachers and agitated further by seeking to control what we wore, to change the definition of men's clothing so that we could wear pants.

I have embraced a secular life because the scientific method relies on reproducible results. No man has the right to tell me what to do or think. Instead of liberating herself, the author is on a cause to change the beliefs of others; to me, as bad as the Orthodox.

So, I'm not impressed by this confrontation. If the temple means anything to you, follow the rules that accompany the symbol. You are free to worship, in your own way. If you choose to confront others, you are deliberately causing trouble for others and I, a former yeshiva girl, ask you to stop such sacrilege.

Orthodox control over the affairs of non-Orthodox Jews in Israel is ridiculous, and it's not right. Thank you, Lesley, for taking such a courageous stand on this.

Leslie,
Go for it. There's more at stake than who can pray where.
An Israel free from medieval misogyny would be a positive model to other countries practicing their own hoary brands of arbitrary and senseless discrimination. This would also impact pockets of reactionary Judaism in the United States.

Negotiate for years, pretend to agree, brag about it, postpone implementation until the last minute, then cancel the agreement. Sound familiar?

Praying at the Wall is all fine and good but feminist leaders, in fact all feminists, want all women to be free. At least I thought that was the case. How can a religious Jew love others when Palestinian women are not included in the struggle to free all women? I admire your efforts but I wish you would go further and fight for all women in Israel.

The first thing that seems to occur to [male] leaders of any religion is the control and subjugation of women. Why is that? The more conservative the religion, the more stuff women aren't allowed to do.

Of course, look at many of our supposedly secular state legislatures. It is increasingly clear that they want to eliminate women's ability to prevent unwanted pregnancies, even if it means depriving them of other health care. (And then at the same time, men say that pregnancy and childbirth are the woman's problem, and why should they be expected to support any part of it.) It is unjust. It is also ridiculous, but this is the real world we live in.

It is all about men controlling women.

If I'm fanatical about anything it's my revulsion for fanatics of every ilk, particularly political and religious (which seem to go together).
And what does ALL religious fanaticism consist of? Absolute power to tell OTHER people how they should live whether they like it or not!
I've long realized that Israel doesn't want, just my money and my tacit support of ANYTHING they do, good or bad. My marriage isn't a "Jewish" marriage because the rabbi was Conservative. My adopted son's conversion doesn't make him a "real" Jew because the rabbi at the mikvah was Reform, although the mikvah is run by Orthodox. I'm not good enough, and my boys aren't good enough.
What really angers me is that the Ultra-Orthodox vehemently opposed the founding of Israel because the Moshiach had not yet come, and it was the liberals and the ethnic / cultural Jews who built the nation, fought the wars and made Israel the haven for persecuted Jews of the world.
Now these bigots are tearing that down and the people of Israel are letting them. Why? Because the ultra-orthodox are all determined and in lock-step. While the rest have a fundamental aversion to hurting ANY Jew, the ones controlling everything have no such aversions.
So, as far as I'm concerned, Israel has said in no uncertain terms: I, and my family, aren't welcome there.

I am a Jew descended from many generations of Jews. I am a Jew and wear the mantle proudly and am comfortable around Jews from Heredi to Secular Humanists. What I have never been comfortable with is Temple Judaism.
In his scholarly 1998 opus Surpassing Wonder historian Donald Akenson explains the end of Temple Judaism and the beginning of Rabbinic Judaism.
In the 18th century we saw the birth of Hasidism which should have brought the end of the veneration of man made objects yet here we are.
I do not want to pray at the wall it is concrete the very antithesis of Holy but that is just me. I much prefer Akenson's history and the full title of his book Surpassing Wonder the Invention of the Bible and the Talmuds.
Meanwhile like the Samaritans old anything that can impart the simple mundane properties of walls, temples, churches mosques and returns God to the realm of the omnipresent and unknowable is for me a good thing.

Well written column that addresses the exclusion of the majority (non-orthodox or orthodox women who are questioning orthodox rules). It is an essential discussion for any "living" religion. Yes, religions can be called "living" when they are able to adapt and transform themselves.

However, a key question remains unaddressed in this column: how are the orthodox leadership supposed to agree to this change? You can't use a secular argument to sway them (such as, Israel is a liberal democracy or that women can no longer be treated in separate/unequal ways). As part of a living religion, there is a need for a discussion at the level of the religion. I would like to see a movement in Israel to revisit the core meaning of Judaism and have a communal discussion of how, within the terms provided by the religion, discern a way of bringing women into the religion in a new way. If this means questioning the power of the "orthodox" that's okay as long as their is due respect for the motivation of the orthodox to stay true to Judaism.

The lesson here is not about religion. It is about political power. Everyone - including Bibi - understands how medieval these practices are. And - other than the Orthodox - everyone recognizes the rights of Conservative and Reform (Progressive) branches. The main point is that a deal WAS worked out, but politics prevented its implementation. Clearly, logic won't win out. Abandoning one's religion is not an answer either. Marshaling political power WILL win out. So, how to accomplish that? Gaining American support might help, but I'm not sure that carries the day with Israeli voters; it might even be counterproductive.
Suggestion: Instead of being "nice Jewish girls", try working the right political party into getting behind this and making its avoidance a political price too high to pay for Bibi and everyone else who has the power. Look, even Ariel Sharon dismantled settlements when he thought the politics supported it. The cause isn't lost; it just needs to be refocused.

Thanks for this thoughtful piece. The last time at I was at the Western Wall (2015), I was literally chased out of the women's section by an usher - she didn't believe that I was a women. As a gender non-conforming woman (who is often read as a man at first glance), I wasn't allowed to daven at this holy site, even without trying to wear my tallit.

Gender separation defeats democracy. It is simply unequal and unfair and should stop.

It's interesting to note that at the Grand Mosque in Mecca, Islam makes an exception and allows men and women to pray together unsegregated.

Religion, the worst as misogynists. Please keep up the fight. As long as men can retreat to a religion that separates women, we only inch forward in equality.

To Lesley Sachs and Women of the Wall: It is a shame that you are stuck-in such Man-Made problems. Equality (=) is a huge lesson that clearly has not been learned by those who go by such superficial, not thoughtful "separations". Those are the not mindful people who arrest you, at a famous wall.... a wall. To have such a "middle-management" rule at a wall, is an example of "what not to do" in and of itself. Because, then the person is staring at a man-made wall, and not at the beautiful sky, for instance. ---- The year 2018 is approaching. Perhaps, these "Men" will learn the very important lesson of Equality, by then. Sincerely, Kim. --- PS. I have been working-on the 5th Wave of Feminism: The Personal is Professional.

Thank you for your courage and for the example you set for women and girls.

Thank you Leslie for such a heartfelt op-ed. You are encouraging to all!

ANY [ and I mean any ] religon that segregates men and women or requires them to dress in certain ways [ checked by male modesty police ] pray in certain areas,only permits males to lead the religion,require women to sit in separate areas on public transportation , separate swimming pools etc. can only result with men with very serious identity issues. Governments who support these men can not claim to be legitimate.

Please put your efforts into something more useful. Religions repress people, pretty much always. Do not feed the beast. Mediate in private and commune at secular social meetings.
Trying to fix something that is fundamentally broken just give it more legitimacy. Free you mind. Be free of religion.