Good grief--are they crazy?
8
Anyone proofread this?
1
Yet another step towards DeBlasio's dream of utter lawlessness and complete lack of respect for laws. Bring on the graffiti filled trains, rampant crime, boom boxes blasting in subway cars, and heaven only knows what else. Is DeBlasio a plant but some evil organization looking to destroy this city? I say, bring them to jail, let them stay there for a day or two, then sentence them to community service. At least the city will get a break for a day or two while they are in jail. By the way, considering the deplorable condition of the MTA, can they afford all of these people taking a free ride? I guess we can expect yet another fare increase to subsidize the thieves.
10
Did anyone read the article?? It doesn't imply there won't be ANY consequences, and it also says exceptions may be made. Arresting fare beaters OK, I get it, they didn't pay the money....sheesh people. How lucky you all must be to be able to afford a monthly Metro card. Newsflash it may not be easy for everyone else, and I am in no way saying there shouldn't be consequences, but good grief, let the punishment fit the crime, community service is adequate. Laying on a fine that will probably not get paid is kinda dumb. Laying on continued fines, arrest warrants, time in jail seems like a waste of resources. Why ruin someone over a $2.25 fare? But that's what you want, right? Get out of your faux white liberal, progressive bubbles. I notice a pattern, whenever there is a story that focuses on black and brown people, you all have a lot to say, (mostly negative and racist) and quite frankly you sound like the Trump supporters you so call despise. Unbelievable.
5
Fines for the family, garnish pay, Naked bus trips to Chicago in January, deportation of illegal's who do it, confiscation of anything they have or own. A day with mayor de Balsio, Andrew Cuomo, Maxine Watters, Chuck Schumer or listening to Barack Obama's or Hillary Clinton's lies (oops) promises.
That'l cure em.
That'l cure em.
2
So Councilman Lancman, now that I can take free subway rides, please tell me what other laws I can break? Oh, your exemption from having to obey the law doesn't apply unless I'm a young African-American or Hispanic male? Wonder if I should look for an attorney who can handle my discrimination suit?
10
Alert! Human Beings, get out of New York NOW! Law will soon be outlawed by the pols.
6
More evidence that we are in an election year...
Wait for the "I lowered crime" boasts stemming from this.
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
Wait for the "I lowered crime" boasts stemming from this.
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
3
So, Dominica-trained, Nigerian-born, expired-medical-licence, Henry Michael Bello, who just shot 6 people in the Bronx, has an arrest record that includes turnstyle jumping!!!!
Maybe if we had been a bit tougher on him, convicted and deported him, we could have saved lives.
Maybe if we had been a bit tougher on him, convicted and deported him, we could have saved lives.
7
We should just get rid of turnstiles altogether like in Germany. The MTA would save so much money on maintenance and acquisition of turnstile machines that it would likely make up for any lost fares. Most people would still pay anyway - just send someone through the trains and platforms occasionally to check for tickets (and issue a $50 fine for people who don't have a ticket).
4
Contrary to common sentiment, over the years, I have seen Caucasian males, including some dressed in business attire, pull back the turnstile and enter the subway without paying, but no-one, including the undercover officers, are noticing those fare beaters. I even saw a tall man step over the turnstile while I was entering and I am wondering how it is no-one ever seems to notice those offenders and only concentrate on young minority people. Wrong is wrong, it would be revealing to see the numbers of non-minority offenders who are arrested.
7
Instead of "community service" it would be more realistic to require fare beaters to walk (or run) several miles as officially recorded, a kind of urban military training. Generally, the people who do this have poor daily living habits and need physical discipline. Working in a food pantry is not likely to change daily habits of lawbreaking..
5
I see quite a few fare jumpers and have never seen one get caught. I hear station managers weakly announcing, "Pay your fare! Pay your fare!" I also see a lot of people sneak in the back doors of buses - the drivers either don't notice or don't care. when the next increase is announced, part of it will be me paying for those you use the subways and buses but don't pay.
13
Riders sneaking in the back doors of buses is a problem that drivers cannot be expected to address. They are not police and have a schedule to meet, not to mention the aggravations of traffic. This is just one more detail that the MTA is unable to address.
10
Not that long ago, a bus driver was actually suspended for enforcing the rule on a boy who he caught sneaking onto his bus, which shows where the priorities of this really are.
6
Yes, please do this. Increasing crime will bring down property values and maybe we can become a middle class city again.
14
Hmmm, first anyone who urinated in public was given a get out of jail card. Now fare-beaters are given a pass. When do the hordes of squeegee guys re-appear on the West Side Highway?
Seriously, I haven't made a trip into NYC in months. With the city heading towards a Dave Dinkins "Escape From New York" vibe I'll stay home and watch movies based on NYC events.
Seriously, I haven't made a trip into NYC in months. With the city heading towards a Dave Dinkins "Escape From New York" vibe I'll stay home and watch movies based on NYC events.
20
Good for you. I'm sure you will be sorely missed in the City when you are home watching TV.
22
Ok, this 60 year old white guy from NO is going to go under the turnstile. Let them give me a ticket. I am also going to test the waters of urinating in front of Penn Station and getting a ticket but not responding. Will they send policemen to New Jersey to get me?
4
I don't think anyone wants to see the return of squeegee vendors. Public urination is certainly something we can agree is undesirable too. Although, spend a couple hours on the subway waiting, traveling, transferring, waiting again, traveling again and you begin to understand why the crime is so common. I can name one in-transit restroom in the entire Manhattan subway. You don't want to use it either.
At the same time, classifying petty crimes as misdemeanors is silly and unfair. There is already an out for those who know. It's called adjournment in contemplation of dismissal. Basically, you ask the judge to put the case on hold for X number of months. If no other violations come up in that time, the case is dismissed. Think of it like a backdoor to probation.
The reason this is unfair is because a child that commits a petty misdemeanor whose family can afford a lawyer will get off the hook. The case will get heard at the right time, in front of the right judge. The offender doesn't even have to be present. Price tag: around $300. Everyone else gets a permanent criminal act on their record and maybe jail time as well. Don't you just love injustice.
At the same time, classifying petty crimes as misdemeanors is silly and unfair. There is already an out for those who know. It's called adjournment in contemplation of dismissal. Basically, you ask the judge to put the case on hold for X number of months. If no other violations come up in that time, the case is dismissed. Think of it like a backdoor to probation.
The reason this is unfair is because a child that commits a petty misdemeanor whose family can afford a lawyer will get off the hook. The case will get heard at the right time, in front of the right judge. The offender doesn't even have to be present. Price tag: around $300. Everyone else gets a permanent criminal act on their record and maybe jail time as well. Don't you just love injustice.
9
The problem is fare beaters used to spend the night/weekend in jail for petty crimes which is unfair and ties up the judicial system and has jusdged and the courts wasting time and energy on crimes that don't warrant being there in the first place. This is a huge step forward, especially for poor people of color so long as the police actually behave and listen to these rules
"Officers have wide discretion in deciding whom to arrest." I would not be surprised if that discretion is used unfairly. What of turnstile duckers? That is, children who are instructed by their parents to duck under the turnstile or sneak in through a subway exit gate... I see this regularly in tonier parts of town, where the socio-economic arguments advanced as to ability to pay should cut the other way. Parents are teaching their children that they are entitled to get away with fare evasion. In full view of other passengers and subway employees and even cops who do nothing. What is the "business ethics" lesson learned? (Many parents may not even know when they are required to pay fares for their children.) Why is that not discussed in this article? Maybe the NYT plans a sequel about how the rest of us suckers subsidize fare beaters by actually paying rising fares.
9
Oh, what incredibly short memories people have.
Anyone who lived in New York prior to Bratton will remember the high murder rate, street crime, muggings etc.
I divide my time between New York and London, and I would guess 50% of my London friends (the same demographic as my New York ones) have been victims of muggings, purse snatchings, bicycle thefts etc.
I don't know a single person in New York who has been a victim of a crime since Bratton was commissioner.
What's the difference? London has the old-fashioned "let's focus on murders and terrorism."
If you are robbed, mugged or burgled here, often the the Met doesn't even bother to investigate. They don't even bother to file a report unless there's GBO ("Grievous Bodily Harm") or a large sum of money or a miscreant who can be identified by CCTV.
When Bratton offered to help out the Met, they turned him down cold as they didn't want a Yank to tell THEM what to do. Sure enough street crime is still soaring and last night, the Co-op (a grocery store) a few blocks away was ram raided and all the cigarettes and booze stolen.
Prior to Bratton, you rarely saw a woman alone in the subway (except cleaners. etc.) after nine p.m., especially in Brooklyn or Bronx neighborhoods.
After Bratton, women felt save enough to travel by themselves at almost any hour.
Think of them, as canaries in the coal mine, and watch them slowly, slowly disappear from the subways at night if this ill-though repeal goes through.
Anyone who lived in New York prior to Bratton will remember the high murder rate, street crime, muggings etc.
I divide my time between New York and London, and I would guess 50% of my London friends (the same demographic as my New York ones) have been victims of muggings, purse snatchings, bicycle thefts etc.
I don't know a single person in New York who has been a victim of a crime since Bratton was commissioner.
What's the difference? London has the old-fashioned "let's focus on murders and terrorism."
If you are robbed, mugged or burgled here, often the the Met doesn't even bother to investigate. They don't even bother to file a report unless there's GBO ("Grievous Bodily Harm") or a large sum of money or a miscreant who can be identified by CCTV.
When Bratton offered to help out the Met, they turned him down cold as they didn't want a Yank to tell THEM what to do. Sure enough street crime is still soaring and last night, the Co-op (a grocery store) a few blocks away was ram raided and all the cigarettes and booze stolen.
Prior to Bratton, you rarely saw a woman alone in the subway (except cleaners. etc.) after nine p.m., especially in Brooklyn or Bronx neighborhoods.
After Bratton, women felt save enough to travel by themselves at almost any hour.
Think of them, as canaries in the coal mine, and watch them slowly, slowly disappear from the subways at night if this ill-though repeal goes through.
22
My question is: Why bother jumping the turnstile when people are willing to give you a swipe on their unlimited metrocard?
6
You have to wait 18 minutes before reusing an unlimited card, so you can only swipe another person in if you yourself are not going in, or if you are willing to wait 18 minutes.
7
So the rest of us are supposed to pay for these thieves? This will encourage even more theft. Will they also suspend the huge fine for not paying on Select Buses? Defining deviancy down, in the words of the late Daniel Patrick Moynihan.
14
I think for many of these potential turnstile jumpers, the thought of having to do community service like picking up garbage or mopping subways cars would be more of a deterrent than 3 hots and a cot.
9
I agree about that. And publish the offenders' picture and name on an "employee-of-the-month" kind of roster poster in subway stations (and online) to help shame most of these people into not doing it again.
1
"more of a deterrent than 3 hots and a cot."
Or four walls and a hall?
Or four walls and a hall?
More ridiculous pandering by the DeBlasio administration to make our city unsafe. First public urination and now this. This city was on such a great trajectory before he took office. He makes me kind of ashamed to call myself a Democrat, but at least I didn't vote for him, and won't be voting for him this next time either.
12
Most fare jumpers certainly have enough money to pay for their Iphones, earpods and tattoos. They can pay for their rides as well. These jumpers are not poor people who just are down on their luck looking to use the subway. They are criminals and are likely involved in other crimes as well. Bad move by the Mayor.
24
And who's paying the cost of the alternative programs? Bite the bullet & give them 2 free, a $250 fine or 5 days for each of the next 2 & a $1000 fine or 30 days calabozo for #5. If you don't, fare beaters will beat it twice daily, at least! Watch them opt to do nothing and hire a few dozen councilors ( @$25 K pa ) kick the can down the road. If you start to garnishee, though, you'll see movement in a positive direction
5
Fare evaders are also the homeless/mentally ill. When they get in the system they create havoc, assaulting people, urinating and defecating, causing delays when they get on tracks or in places they should not be, and generally making those who pay and need to use the system for their reasonable uses a nightmare.
11
181st and Broadway seems to be the easiest turnstile jumping venue. Wide open space, few people, no transit police. With all the troubles in NYC, and the world, I was not bothered by it. I saw some real Nureyevs and Barishnikovs sailing over the turnstiles and was rather impressed by their skill and athleticism.
3
The solution is simple. Fit all turnstiles with glass windows thus making it impossible to jump a turnstile without breaking a window. Double whammy. And as an added bonus, hire those hard working street folks to clean the windows with dirty rags. Everyone wins.
3
Better yet razor wire and sharp spikes that come up and castrate anyone who tries to turnstile jump. Bet that they will do it only once.
Why dont they just give a liferime free pass on the trains to anyone caught jumping the styles. this would achieve the desired goal of not arresting anyone and reduce police costs. Or maybe a three strikes and you're in, ie if you are caught 3 times you get a free yrarly pass?
3
I lived in worked in New York City during the 1970s.
This change will end badly!
This change will end badly!
8
Crime is at at all time low. Law enforcement is working.
So....
Lets change everything.
Brilliant, New York!!!!
So....
Lets change everything.
Brilliant, New York!!!!
13
“For too long, prosecution of fare evasion as a crime has disproportionately impacted people of color, bogged down our courts, and even put immigrants at risk of deportation,”
What? Protected minorities were impacted? We can't have that! And migrants dumb enough to attract attention through $2.75-saving crimes risked being deported? Major no-no! People who jump turnstiles are obviously an asset to any community, and are just showing how respectful they are of their host country. Besides, NY Democrats need their slave-wage immigrant housekeepers and nannies, so better not bother the workforce on its way to work.
What? Protected minorities were impacted? We can't have that! And migrants dumb enough to attract attention through $2.75-saving crimes risked being deported? Major no-no! People who jump turnstiles are obviously an asset to any community, and are just showing how respectful they are of their host country. Besides, NY Democrats need their slave-wage immigrant housekeepers and nannies, so better not bother the workforce on its way to work.
13
Just a backhanded maneuver against so-called Gentrification, similar to 1970's blockbusting: decriminalizing street crime mostly committed by scary looking subalterns thus frightening young college
educated moneyed Midwestern white breads seeking an urban lifestyle.
educated moneyed Midwestern white breads seeking an urban lifestyle.
4
Left out hip, exotic urban lifestyle.
4
Nudge - why pay a fare when you literally can be a "free rider?"
Seriously, is it really any different from leaving a diner without paying, or shoplifting? Why prosecute anyone.
Very seriously. It's election time!
Seriously, is it really any different from leaving a diner without paying, or shoplifting? Why prosecute anyone.
Very seriously. It's election time!
7
It's stealing something, isn't it?
7
Huge mistake.
5
Eliminate fares, great way to solve the evasion problem and global warming!
3
Mr Vance risks heralding in a return to the crime ridden city of the 70's with this new policy.
Back then, we had garbage piled high on the streets, squeegee men offering to clean windshields, homeless people living in cars beside the West Side highway, muggings and a high murder rate.
I remember all this clearly when I used to visit Manhattan from my home in Cincinnati during that decade.
Police Commissioner William Bratton stopped all this with his "broken windows" policy.
But don't take my word for it. Just read Commissioner Bratton's book "The Turnaround".
I found the book to be fascinating and enthralling and it clearly shows the results of good police policies, vigorously applied.
Back then, we had garbage piled high on the streets, squeegee men offering to clean windshields, homeless people living in cars beside the West Side highway, muggings and a high murder rate.
I remember all this clearly when I used to visit Manhattan from my home in Cincinnati during that decade.
Police Commissioner William Bratton stopped all this with his "broken windows" policy.
But don't take my word for it. Just read Commissioner Bratton's book "The Turnaround".
I found the book to be fascinating and enthralling and it clearly shows the results of good police policies, vigorously applied.
6
"Officers have wide discretion in deciding whom to arrest." I would not be surprised if that discretion is used unfairly. What of turnstile duckers? That is, children who are instructed by their parents to duck under the turnstile or sneak in through a subway exit gate... I see this regularly in tonier parts of town, where the socio-economic arguments advanced as to ability to pay should cut the other way. Parents are teaching their children that they are entitled to get away with fare evasion. In full view of other passengers and subway employees and even cops who do nothing.
1
Another boneheaded idea from the de Blasio camp. I remember Dinkins NY, it wasn't a pleasant place to live and he wants to take us right back to it. Can't wait for the squeegee men to show up again.
5
Mayor DeBlasio and his comrades seem determined to bring NYC back to the 1980s.
The crime rate is relatively low. So (the liberal reasoning goes) let's undo all of the policies that brought the crime rate down over the past 20 years and see what happens.
Good luck with that.
The crime rate is relatively low. So (the liberal reasoning goes) let's undo all of the policies that brought the crime rate down over the past 20 years and see what happens.
Good luck with that.
3
These comments! It's topics and situations such as this that liberals are no different than conservatives. Mean-spirited. I see it everyday here in NYC.
3
I think it's more nuanced than that.
Conservatives seem to be consistent in their will to see Laws enforced.
Liberals have a more à-la-carte approach. Open borders when southern states, and "other" neighborhoods are taken over by Illegal Aliens; but call the cops if they happen to feel more directly affected in any way. In other words: tolerance for scoundrels, but NOT IN MY BACK YARD.
Conservatives seem to be consistent in their will to see Laws enforced.
Liberals have a more à-la-carte approach. Open borders when southern states, and "other" neighborhoods are taken over by Illegal Aliens; but call the cops if they happen to feel more directly affected in any way. In other words: tolerance for scoundrels, but NOT IN MY BACK YARD.
2
Short version, 'New York Subway Now Free!'
1
Democrats are too nice to stop people from breaking our laws by sneaking across the border or overstaying their visas. Now our cities are becoming too nice to arrest people for minor crimes; here in San Francisco there is a wave of property crime and car break-ins because those have been decriminalized.
The message of all this cheek turning is that crime is fine because criminals could not possibly be responsible for their own behavior. The consequences should be more than obvious to anyone who has raised children.
The message of all this cheek turning is that crime is fine because criminals could not possibly be responsible for their own behavior. The consequences should be more than obvious to anyone who has raised children.
5
It's a bad law when the fare is too high for working people. I've seen countless people standing by the turnstiles hoping for a swipe from a kind stranger. Putting people in jail for turnstile jumping, where they may stay for life (if they can't afford subway fare, they sure can't afford bail). Is not the answer. Albany and Cuomo and the Feds need to step up and fund NYC's public transportation. We are the economic engine for the state.
1
Oh, please, they hardly stay for life for fare-beating. Fare-beating used to be rampsnt when crime was very high on the subways. I am old enough to have ridden the system in those days and been accosted. The subways did not become safe by waving a magic wand. They became safer through assertive policing. Don't think it cannot return to disordiliness or worse. Plus, my guess is the fare-beaters are not workers going off to jobs--working people tend to pay, including those in low-paying jobs.
So now you will have subway trains screeching to a halt and stalling for hours, passengers "self evacuating," coupled with "show time" and fare-beating rolled into one. Sounds like chaos and an invitation for disaster to me.
So now you will have subway trains screeching to a halt and stalling for hours, passengers "self evacuating," coupled with "show time" and fare-beating rolled into one. Sounds like chaos and an invitation for disaster to me.
3
"Diverted!" . I love it!
1
It''l be interesting to see what this Socialist experiment leads to in 10 years.
2
10 months.
2
Vance is essentially trying to deny cause-and-effect. We'll see how this works for NYC. Increasing the number of sketchy characters with ample time who are looking to somehow profit from fellow subway riders does not seem like a recipe for quality commute.
10
I can see that people do not have the money. But this type of decriminalization of offenses is also not fair to law abiding poor people. Rather than letting people ride free , there could be multitudes of ways to try. There could still be fines to pay and they could be on a sliding scale so offenders with means would have to pay more. Second option, why not have means adjusted metro cards for those who are too poor to afford it and can show that they have a job or school to go to that necessitate the use of the transport system. These cards would be issued to a name and people would have to show ID to get them and use them. They could be a different color , have to be renewed regularly and by providing the necessary documentation. Police can spot check users and only give citations to those using them illegally. Another solutions would be to have places of employement and schools issue metro cards at a discounted rate. I would still be in favor of a "ticket" similar to a parking ticket. Make the fine low enough and have it linked to the renewal of the drivers license. If there is absolutely no consequences , many people will just decide that they are above the law.
12
The Hudson-Bergen light rail sells time-stamped tickets and runs spot checks that riders have them, with substantial fines for those who do not. Since Metrocards have time-stamp information on them so that free transfers can be implemented, the same system could be used on subways if there exists a hand-held Metrocard reader.
If turnstile-jumping is viewed as the equivalent to a parking violation, jumpers should not have to appear in court unless they fail to pay their fines. Jumpers without identification could have their fingerprints taken by suitably equipped police cellphones.
Making subways free would be another way to go, except that droves of homeless people would move in.
If turnstile-jumping is viewed as the equivalent to a parking violation, jumpers should not have to appear in court unless they fail to pay their fines. Jumpers without identification could have their fingerprints taken by suitably equipped police cellphones.
Making subways free would be another way to go, except that droves of homeless people would move in.
2
Anytime I see a turnstile jumper, they are completely clothed like they can afford the fare, but choose not to pay the fare.
My favorite time was a 20-something guy who saw the transit cop walking around, so he kept going up and down the stairs for about 4 minutes until the cop left and then he jumped the turnstile and that was that.
8
If there are 10,000 fare evasion case being criminally prosecuted every year, clearly the application of the law is not tough enough to discourage that crime.
Instead of making it tougher, to drive fare evasion down, our distinguished prosecutor is going to make it, in effect, not a crime.
Good luck with that New York.
Instead of making it tougher, to drive fare evasion down, our distinguished prosecutor is going to make it, in effect, not a crime.
Good luck with that New York.
8
Finally. This was long overdue. It's honestly upsetting to see the amount of people in these comments against this initiative. Anyone who grew up here knows that this is one of the first run-ins with the law you can have as a teenager. Sometimes you just have no money, no rides on your student metrocard, or even worse: it's the summer, so you don't even have a student metrocard. Do you tell the 15-year-old, who may have mismanaged his summer youth check that week, to stop going to work because his parents had no money to give him for the train?
We all know that EVERYONE in this city, young or old, relies on the MTA to get around. We all have different reasons for taking the train. Sometimes we need that one ride to keep our lives together. No one is encouraging people to break the law but in a city as expensive as this, sometimes people end up cutting corners to survive. Does that really mean they're bad people? Are they harming anyone?
We all know that EVERYONE in this city, young or old, relies on the MTA to get around. We all have different reasons for taking the train. Sometimes we need that one ride to keep our lives together. No one is encouraging people to break the law but in a city as expensive as this, sometimes people end up cutting corners to survive. Does that really mean they're bad people? Are they harming anyone?
14
.... Alleluia! And so good for you, Ms. Olosunde! You are, perhaps, one of the few New Yorkers who is not stricken by 'the poverty of empathy' towards those who, sometimes, just do not have the money to afford an MTA fare!
3
Rock on! I mean, ride on.
Let's hear it for more human and realistic methods.
Well-healed fare jumper or dangerous person? They
get the court date. Others: let's not clog the court
system & instead implement the consequences
discussed in this article.
Let's hear it for more human and realistic methods.
Well-healed fare jumper or dangerous person? They
get the court date. Others: let's not clog the court
system & instead implement the consequences
discussed in this article.
1
Fare evasion was considered a gateway crime for a reason. Police found that turnstile jumpers were disproportionally wanted for other crimes and often carried weapons. Stopping fare beaters at the point of entry prevented more serious crimes in the subway system.
The subways are finally safe. Yes, some people's burdens will be lifted but on whose backs will they be placed?
The subways are finally safe. Yes, some people's burdens will be lifted but on whose backs will they be placed?
24
But the WILL be stopped, and if found to have a criminal record, dealt with in the courts.
Why haul in the others?
Why haul in the others?
1
Do these sorts of changes result in better crime numbers for the administration? In other words the administration will be able to report less "crime" because fewer people are being booked, charged and arrested and a lot fewer offenses are being reported and recorded?
17
Interesting comments, especially those making elaborate justifications for why it's okay to break the law.
Is it okay for "the poor" to break into your car and steal your valuables because they have less stuff than you?
I like the community service idea, for first time offenders. After that, people stealing from "the government", which is all of us, need to feel consequences painful enough that they never do it again.
How about some provision of subsidized fares for the very poor?
Is it okay for "the poor" to break into your car and steal your valuables because they have less stuff than you?
I like the community service idea, for first time offenders. After that, people stealing from "the government", which is all of us, need to feel consequences painful enough that they never do it again.
How about some provision of subsidized fares for the very poor?
48
It is probably ok for the poor to steal if they have no other way to feed themselves and their alternative is to go off somewhere and die. If there are alternatives, such as allowing them to beg, then it is not ok.
It is as ok for them to steal as it is for us to force them to go somewhere else. Stealing and NIMBY are two sides of the same coin. If you want people not to do something like supporting themselves by crime, you have to assure that they have something they can do. The free market often does not provide this.
It is as ok for them to steal as it is for us to force them to go somewhere else. Stealing and NIMBY are two sides of the same coin. If you want people not to do something like supporting themselves by crime, you have to assure that they have something they can do. The free market often does not provide this.
4
What a sad justification for criminal behaviour. We are not talking about Jean Valjean. There is welfare, and food stamps, and education for those who want to bother - and even work for those who care to earn income.
All you do is give ammo to the right wing haters.
All you do is give ammo to the right wing haters.
5
At most stations you only need to look around to determine whether a police officer is waiting to catch you evading the fare. With a $100 ticket and no record, assuming you have a less than 2.75% chance of getting caught, you should do it.
Soon, we'll start seeing guys renting little stools for $1 to make the jumping easier. Meanwhile, the fare will rise faster, as passenger revenue declines due to fare evasion.
Soon, we'll start seeing guys renting little stools for $1 to make the jumping easier. Meanwhile, the fare will rise faster, as passenger revenue declines due to fare evasion.
22
I like the stools idea!
2
Does Joe Lhota know this?
Hey Joe, I'm sorry man, good luck fixing the "crisis" with the immediate plummet in income.
Can someone tell Vance about the Consequences/behavior relationship?
Is there any wonder this city is falling apart with the incompetence across the board of elected officials?
Cuomo and Deblasio are in the same freaking party and they can't get anything done, because neither is doing the job for the job. They are both looking for the next one. And what's the alternative?
I miss Bloomberg. He was annoying and egotistical and his Spanish is atrocious. But the city worked. Remember those days?
Hey Joe, I'm sorry man, good luck fixing the "crisis" with the immediate plummet in income.
Can someone tell Vance about the Consequences/behavior relationship?
Is there any wonder this city is falling apart with the incompetence across the board of elected officials?
Cuomo and Deblasio are in the same freaking party and they can't get anything done, because neither is doing the job for the job. They are both looking for the next one. And what's the alternative?
I miss Bloomberg. He was annoying and egotistical and his Spanish is atrocious. But the city worked. Remember those days?
20
A lot of people miss him and you're right about the current admin.
6
If it ain't broke....change the heck out of the system.
Say what you want--broken windows is a well established policing philosophy with proven empirical results.
Crime in NYC came down to an all-time low.
You want to decriminalize small amounts of marijuana--fine. (Most Americans don't even view it as a crime). But turnstile jumping and other petty crime is....crime. And tolerating crime encourages more crime--makes sense in theory and has been proven time and again.
There's definitely more street-level harassment and petty crime already than I can remember in the last decade.
Trump is wrong to try to pull America back to the 50's. And DeBlasio is wrong to try to pull the city back to the 70's.
Say what you want--broken windows is a well established policing philosophy with proven empirical results.
Crime in NYC came down to an all-time low.
You want to decriminalize small amounts of marijuana--fine. (Most Americans don't even view it as a crime). But turnstile jumping and other petty crime is....crime. And tolerating crime encourages more crime--makes sense in theory and has been proven time and again.
There's definitely more street-level harassment and petty crime already than I can remember in the last decade.
Trump is wrong to try to pull America back to the 50's. And DeBlasio is wrong to try to pull the city back to the 70's.
31
Yes!
And some people, who do not remember the 70s, think they cannot return. Hate to tell you, they can. The city did not get to the situation in the 70s and 80s overnight. But it got there: Unsafe subways, rampant street crime, close to 3000 murders a year.
And subway crime is already ticking up, including assaults. Crime breeds crime.
Let the NYPD do its job lest you suffer the consequences.
And some people, who do not remember the 70s, think they cannot return. Hate to tell you, they can. The city did not get to the situation in the 70s and 80s overnight. But it got there: Unsafe subways, rampant street crime, close to 3000 murders a year.
And subway crime is already ticking up, including assaults. Crime breeds crime.
Let the NYPD do its job lest you suffer the consequences.
4
So let me get this strait, every day we see the catastrophe that underfunding for the MTA is causing, but we want to coddle those who don't pay a fare?????
31
straight
I have lived in Manhattan all of my 56 years and ride the subway everyday. Fare beaters jump the turnstile because they can and by and large lack the life skills to manage to have the fare on them or remember to carry and keep value on their metrocard. Poverty, racism, living wages it is all a bunch of non-sense on this issue.
36
In my opinion, more police officers is more important for crime prevention than harder punishments for the few that are caught.
Unfortunately, it is easy and cheap for politicians to increase penalties to ridiculous levels while also cutting the police force. The can still *look* tough on crime to voters.
Unfortunately, it is easy and cheap for politicians to increase penalties to ridiculous levels while also cutting the police force. The can still *look* tough on crime to voters.
7
The cost of arresting and trying a turnstile jumper seems kinda high to me. Think of the money saved by simply giving a ticket similar to a speeding ticket.
8
It's the collection costs that would ruin it
2
People commenting that the subway will now be "free" are sooooo out of touch. Nowhere in the article does it say "Everyone in the city can now ride for free" No! it says that people will have to do community service. People will be punished for evading fare.. they just won't go to court. What kind of sadistic people are you all that want a person that has taken $2.75 to go to court? how much punishment is good enough for you all? I think is great that people that commit this PETTY crime will do community service; our communities greatly need it.
22
So New York wants to reduce the quality of life by rewarding crime.
22
Yet again, readers of NYT come out for more punishment -- at least for the poor (no such zeal to punish control fraud or corporate crime).
Apparently we don't have enough people in jail in this country. Besides, we'll lose prestige if we don't continue to imprison more people per capita than those Shining Police States on the Hill, China and Russia.
Apparently we don't have enough people in jail in this country. Besides, we'll lose prestige if we don't continue to imprison more people per capita than those Shining Police States on the Hill, China and Russia.
7
Nothing would please me more than to see the bankers and regulators behind the 2008 crash and other Wall Street disasters go to prison, for a good long time.
But that was not the subject of this article. This article was about people evading fares.
But that was not the subject of this article. This article was about people evading fares.
16
Malcolm Gladwell had an entire chapter on this in his book, "The Tipping Point." He credits 1) the crackdown on turnstile jumpers and 2) the immediate removal of graffiti from subway cars at the end of every trip for the remarkable turnaround for NYC subway transit. Prior to implementing these two programs, the NYC subway was considered one of the most dangerous places in America. For historical context: http://all-that-is-interesting.com/new-york-subways-1980s
26
New York subways were so dangerous between 1970 and 1980 that people stopped riding them. In 1990 when Bratton arrived, 250 people each day were jumping turnstiles.
Those lamenting the punishment of farebeaters assume that's the only crime committed by the individual. If that's the case, community service is a fitting punishment. But, if we return to the scenario of the past, where farebeaters turn out to be criminals who then prey on commuters, our subways are going to be even more unpleasant than they are now.
Considering overcrowding was identified as a cause of delays, this may be one solution. Chase riders away by making the subways less safe.
Those lamenting the punishment of farebeaters assume that's the only crime committed by the individual. If that's the case, community service is a fitting punishment. But, if we return to the scenario of the past, where farebeaters turn out to be criminals who then prey on commuters, our subways are going to be even more unpleasant than they are now.
Considering overcrowding was identified as a cause of delays, this may be one solution. Chase riders away by making the subways less safe.
5
I'm not sure if decriminalizing it helps but its a waste of effort/time/money to send them to jail.
It'd be much better for society and other subway riders if we make them pay a fine and have them community service like cleaning the subways, either the trains or platforms. And if they already have a job, this can be done in weekends or off hours since making them lose their jobs really doesn't help anyone.
It'd be much better for society and other subway riders if we make them pay a fine and have them community service like cleaning the subways, either the trains or platforms. And if they already have a job, this can be done in weekends or off hours since making them lose their jobs really doesn't help anyone.
13
Who will supervise their community service to ensure it will be done? How much will that cost? Who supplies the brooms and mops? LoL.
1
It may sound good, but the question is whether you can move the enormous caseload, which is clogging the courts, to the DA's offices, where it may just clog them instead. Are they prepared to add 10,000 (or however many) people a year to community service programs? You realize someone has to supervise those programs?
8
Cool. Perhaps they can make a list of all criminal offenses which will not be prosecuted so we can use that information when creating the family budget.
52
Crime is at an all time low.
So let's revamp the system.
Yet another example why someone with no executive experience or any demonstrated competency running any organization shouldn't be running the most important city in the world.
So let's revamp the system.
Yet another example why someone with no executive experience or any demonstrated competency running any organization shouldn't be running the most important city in the world.
34
Vance and the NYPD are idiots to allow this.
As it is, I see people (young men, mostly) getting on the back door of many buses without paying. I don't want those people sitting next to me, b/c I've just SEEN them not pay their fare, so they've already shown me that stealing is well within their purview - and maybe I'm their next "mug".
As it is, I see people (young men, mostly) getting on the back door of many buses without paying. I don't want those people sitting next to me, b/c I've just SEEN them not pay their fare, so they've already shown me that stealing is well within their purview - and maybe I'm their next "mug".
66
Robert Morgenthau, the legendary Manhattan District Attorney, made a huge mistake hand picking this clown, who spent most of his legal career in left wing Seattle, to be Manhattan DA. His qualifications? His dad was Secretary of State - Democratic royalty - Morgy picked a democrat with pedigree rather that a competent prosecutor.
21
Thank you Cyrus Vance. The current punishment is completely out of proportion with the crime. It's long overdue that this was addressed. Many commenters appear to be against this policy change -- how vindictive and bitter must you be to want poor people to suffer in jail and meander through the idiotic and slow court system for jumping a turnstile? Your ill will towards these minor offenders is alarming. This policy doesn't make the jumping turnstiles legal, it appropriately adjusts the level of punishment.
8
They are THIEVES! Feel free to have them sit next to you - put your wallet in your lap?
2
Those who jump turnstiles will be immediately diverted to a DeBlasio approved, tax-payer funded SUV and whisked to a gym in Park Slope, to avoid public transportation all together. I am so happy that DeBlasio will make New York unsafe again.
29
The problem with prosecuting fare jumpers is that the act is overcharged. Why is anyone going to court over this? Give them a ticket that they can mail in with a fine and be done with it. Can you imagine the chaos if every traffic infraction was issued with a court appearance? You can kill a cyclist and never go to court let alone get a ticket.
If they don't pay the fine, there are a myriad of ways the gov't can jam up the ordinary guy.
If they don't pay the fine, there are a myriad of ways the gov't can jam up the ordinary guy.
10
@Peter S: You are clueless about what happens in NYC.
6
How about the fact that it's still considered crime even if it's just a misdemeanor compared to felony? The point here is that it's a still a crime in itself to do this. Just because you stole something of less value doesn't give anyone anyone excuse to do it compared to someone who stole something of greater value. Shoplifting is still a theft even if what was stolen happened to be something petty. Just because it's something less doesn't change the fact that you committed a crime. Just talking about killing somebody alone is considered a crime even if you didn't actually do it in real life as with attempted murder. As for your claim about killing a cyclists, there have been many cases where those that did it wound up either getting fined or even arrested depending on what happened, so don't give me that anti-car claim that places such as Streetsblog and Transportation Alternatives gives a lot when they are probably skewing information a lot not to mention have a history of being anti-car to begin with.
NYC crime is low now but it won't stay that way if it goes back to treating crime like a minor nuisance.
45
Totally agree
I thought the expression was- if "its not broken don't fix it"
As per police tactics that allowed nyc got to have low crime
De Blasio is the worst!
I thought the expression was- if "its not broken don't fix it"
As per police tactics that allowed nyc got to have low crime
De Blasio is the worst!
1
Statistics have proven that many, not all, of the fare jumpers are the same people that commit other crimes - and to be extra cautious around because of their propensity to do you harm.
Being street smart is being aware and knowing how to recognize potentially dangerous people and situations. Give every single person a fare shake when dealing with them, but in your own mind, know how to assess (profile) who you're dealing with. Otherwise, you'll be a victim. I'm sure many politically correct people will be outraged at this idea - and most probably don't live in NYC. Don't confuse my advice. Be respectful to every single person you meet, and keep an open mind with everyone. I've lived in the city my entire life, often in rough neighborhoods. If you don't properly assess who's who, you'll be eaten alive. It's more important to avoid being a victim than politically correct.
Fare jumpers often are the people to stay away from.
Being street smart is being aware and knowing how to recognize potentially dangerous people and situations. Give every single person a fare shake when dealing with them, but in your own mind, know how to assess (profile) who you're dealing with. Otherwise, you'll be a victim. I'm sure many politically correct people will be outraged at this idea - and most probably don't live in NYC. Don't confuse my advice. Be respectful to every single person you meet, and keep an open mind with everyone. I've lived in the city my entire life, often in rough neighborhoods. If you don't properly assess who's who, you'll be eaten alive. It's more important to avoid being a victim than politically correct.
Fare jumpers often are the people to stay away from.
56
Let's see now - how many Wall Street criminals were handcuffed and taken 'downtown' in 2008 for nearly trashing the entire economy?
I thought so...
I thought so...
9
And the far left continues to parody itself.
19
Their parodies have consequences - the left gave us Trump. May the Goddess save us all.
1
I've seen very able-bodied young guys jump turnstiles as if they think it's a big joke. I agree that it's not a major crime, but it does require some sort of punishment. Making them do some useful community service might be a good thing. Let's see how this works out....
13
This phony policy was nothing short of a smokescreen behind which Giuliani and his successors had and have chosen to hide for too long.
Did it prevent those same police from their God-awful disproportionate "stop and frisk" enforcement among African-American citizens? No! Did it curtail the people running Three Card Monty scams on Times Square? Nope! Did it work its way up the ladder to deter the Wall Street scumbags who nearly broke our economy ten years ago? Are you kidding me?
It pretended to curb crime in more tourist-prone zones, so people could think they were safe while taking their children to see The Lion King which had replaced some XXX video parlor on 42nd Street. More to the point, it empowered the police to go after whoever they wanted, with fewer, if any, questions asked.
Zero tolerance in any form is an excuse for pretending you're doing your job.
Which is all this failed policy was "succeeding" in doing, capped by a failed Mayor who built his gravitas on his last days in office when he paraded around the City with a bullhorn, while convincing us to forget the lousy job he had been doing for years before that.
We should only be glad of one other Giuliani Mayoral failing: When, after 9/11 (his favorite phrase), he was unable to convince us to suspend the forthcoming elections and allow him to stay, longer, in office.
Good riddance - to this policy, and to this sad remnant of Giuliani's "legacy."
Did it prevent those same police from their God-awful disproportionate "stop and frisk" enforcement among African-American citizens? No! Did it curtail the people running Three Card Monty scams on Times Square? Nope! Did it work its way up the ladder to deter the Wall Street scumbags who nearly broke our economy ten years ago? Are you kidding me?
It pretended to curb crime in more tourist-prone zones, so people could think they were safe while taking their children to see The Lion King which had replaced some XXX video parlor on 42nd Street. More to the point, it empowered the police to go after whoever they wanted, with fewer, if any, questions asked.
Zero tolerance in any form is an excuse for pretending you're doing your job.
Which is all this failed policy was "succeeding" in doing, capped by a failed Mayor who built his gravitas on his last days in office when he paraded around the City with a bullhorn, while convincing us to forget the lousy job he had been doing for years before that.
We should only be glad of one other Giuliani Mayoral failing: When, after 9/11 (his favorite phrase), he was unable to convince us to suspend the forthcoming elections and allow him to stay, longer, in office.
Good riddance - to this policy, and to this sad remnant of Giuliani's "legacy."
5
I don't know. Now, it's well advertised that a person can swipe their unlimited card for others - I've done so every time I've been asked, it costs me nothing extra to be helpful. No biggie. In addition, there are charities and social services that make MetroCards available for low income people (as I feel there should be - heck, expand the program!). I mean - there's only so much a government policy or law can do before it is purely a personal decision to get out of a legal subway entry.
That being said, a relatively small fine (like $10) is more than enough to make people think twice. Especially, again, when you can just ask someone to swipe you in. $10 is a parking ticket where I'm from, and it only took two $10 fines for me to get off my buns and feed the meter an extra quarter - and I bet most people are smarter than me and get the lesson the first time!
That being said, a relatively small fine (like $10) is more than enough to make people think twice. Especially, again, when you can just ask someone to swipe you in. $10 is a parking ticket where I'm from, and it only took two $10 fines for me to get off my buns and feed the meter an extra quarter - and I bet most people are smarter than me and get the lesson the first time!
4
This article raises some interesting issues
How large does the theft of service have to be before it is worth enforcing the law? $10 too little? $100 too much?
Does it matter who the money is taken from. Okay to take $2.75 from the subway system but is it not ok to steal a $2.50 hot dog from the hot dog vendor? What if I go into Whole Foods and steal a quart of soy milk because I am hungry? It seems to me that stealing from the government is viewed as a victimless crime by many but it is not. MTA could use all the money it can get to fix the subways.
Why do some readers assume that all the turnstile jumpers are too poor to pay the fare? Is it ok for everyone, regardless of financial condition, to not pay the fare. [It might be an idea to enforce the law but make the penalty a function of the individuals income as is done in some other countries for certain violations like speeding. The more you have the more you pay.]
Does it matter where the person was going. Working poor person going to work is different than someone going to meet friends for a night of bar hopping.
I think it is reasonable to enforce the law in a way similar to a parking ticket. Issue a summons at the subway station and let the fare jumper send in payment or show up in court to dispute.
How large does the theft of service have to be before it is worth enforcing the law? $10 too little? $100 too much?
Does it matter who the money is taken from. Okay to take $2.75 from the subway system but is it not ok to steal a $2.50 hot dog from the hot dog vendor? What if I go into Whole Foods and steal a quart of soy milk because I am hungry? It seems to me that stealing from the government is viewed as a victimless crime by many but it is not. MTA could use all the money it can get to fix the subways.
Why do some readers assume that all the turnstile jumpers are too poor to pay the fare? Is it ok for everyone, regardless of financial condition, to not pay the fare. [It might be an idea to enforce the law but make the penalty a function of the individuals income as is done in some other countries for certain violations like speeding. The more you have the more you pay.]
Does it matter where the person was going. Working poor person going to work is different than someone going to meet friends for a night of bar hopping.
I think it is reasonable to enforce the law in a way similar to a parking ticket. Issue a summons at the subway station and let the fare jumper send in payment or show up in court to dispute.
33
Because you think someone who'd jump the turnstile would bother to pay the fine or to show up in court? What alternate reality are you living in?
10
Or have plainclothes cops take the offender to jail until they can pay the new, $100- fine. If you make the offender face consequences, you'll end the criminal behavior, post haste. There, fixed it for you.
Not sure why crime was so low after 'broken windows', my guess is that it worked. Yet, we do need to modulate law enforcement to better reflect the modern environment. For turnstile jumpers, I like the community service aspect- we get more money back from their labor than they would cost us sitting in jail. Kudos to the judge for some common sense! Actually, I advocate for community service requirements for almost all criminals excluding any who are mentally unstable or have a history of violence. At the moment they spend there time in climate controlled rooms with 3 meals a day with plenty of time for exercise and personal enrichment. While I also advocate for education of criminals in prison so that they have the chance to do something else when they are released, they need to pay back society for the hundreds of thousands we pay to keep them in jail. I thinks it is only fair and makes sense. Obviously any labor they do should not be paid, but may be used to lower sentences if they do good work.
6
Crime went down all across the country but NYC thinks it's all due to Broken Windows.
2
If the MTA actually enforced the laws against fare beating better, this would probably not be as high. Another way would be to step up the fines, though I do feel that jail feels sort of excessive since this feels more like a misdemeanor rather than a felony. Saying that they can do community service feels more like a slap on the wrist and will most likely make those want to do it more knowing that they won't have to pay anything just for doing this. BTW, not all fare beaters happen to be on the low end of the ladder as there have been reports of the well to do jumping turnstiles and sneaking onto buses as well, so this isn't an income or race issue as some like to put at as. Also, I couldn't understand why some MTA workers in the past have gotten suspended or arrested just for enforcing the rules against fare beating such as that bus driver in Queens who told a boy that had a constant record for sneaking on the bus without ever paying to get off the bus unless he was willing to pay for it just like everyone else. Overall, if there is better enforcement against fare beating, the MTA wouldn't need to talk about constant fare hikes just to make up for the lost revenue created by those who feel that they deserve a free ride on the buses and subways. More importantly, they should post up how much they can be fined especially when they feel that they want to save money from paying the fares especially if it's a high amount.
5
Perhaps the solution is to require schools to give students and employers to give low wage earners who commute a free pass.
Oh, check the jumpers to see if they have an iphone. If they do, they presumptively can afford the fare.
Oh, check the jumpers to see if they have an iphone. If they do, they presumptively can afford the fare.
13
NYC students already do get free passes for their commutes. Moot point.
1
I was at a transportation conference about 10 years ago where NYPD officers spoke of how when they started taking fare evaders to the station house to check for warrants rather than just issue a ticket, they found that almost every person was wanted. It turned out that real criminals could not see themselves paying the subway fare. The police compared their waiting by the turnstiles to something out of Ghost Busters, just vacuuming them in. At same conference PAPD mentioned how playing classical music at the Port Authority Bus Terminal had reduced the number of people hanging out there.
88
The article doesn't say that they will disregard fare beating, just that there will be other processes beside court.
It doesn't say that the offenders will be ignored and nor does it say or infer that they will be precluded from being checked for prior offenses.
It just formalizes the process to what the police do in most instances anyway.
It doesn't say that the offenders will be ignored and nor does it say or infer that they will be precluded from being checked for prior offenses.
It just formalizes the process to what the police do in most instances anyway.
2
What about playing Michael Bolton? Did anyone present a study on how fast that clears out loiterers?
3
The problem isn't the turnstile jumping. It's what they did before it (ex., how they became "wanted"), and what they'll do to the subway riders after it.
Why should sex offenders (in the cop's imagination) get special scrutiny if they haven't actually done anything that the police observed, while most offenders actually observed breaking a law are let off? There needs to be balance and common sense applied. Stopping and frisking minorities exclusively was wrong, but police should enforce laws against loitering, disturbing the peace, and harassment on the subway. Those activities, in my personal experience on the NYC subway, provide cover for strong arm robbery and worse crimes. I rode the subway in the late 70s and 80s and it was the wild west until 'broken windows' enforcement improved the situation, with an unfortunate focus and disparate impact on minority youth, most of whom were minding their own business.
12
I had no idea they arrest people for this stuff. I'm 27 but when I lived in Brooklyn and was in junior high I got 2 fines. One for trying to get home by using my friend's school metro card and going through together on one swipe, and one for getting on the back of a bus when I just had no money to get home.
My father's death left my mother with my sister and I and she barely scraped by every month keeping food on the table and a roof over our heads.
As a teenager I worked at summer camps every year during the break and I'd babysit for money whenever I could get a gig but it's not the most secure source of income for a kid and I spent most of that money buying my growing sister clothes that fit and buying food so my mom didn't have to worry so much.
I'd never do something like that again because I'm now a financially secure adult, but people need to understand that no one takes these sorts of risks because they're bad people. They need help, not fines and punishments. My mom cried when she found out about the fine. She didn't know how we'd pay it. The answer to poor people doing things because they don't have money isn't to charge them money and or lock them up. It's draconian...
My father's death left my mother with my sister and I and she barely scraped by every month keeping food on the table and a roof over our heads.
As a teenager I worked at summer camps every year during the break and I'd babysit for money whenever I could get a gig but it's not the most secure source of income for a kid and I spent most of that money buying my growing sister clothes that fit and buying food so my mom didn't have to worry so much.
I'd never do something like that again because I'm now a financially secure adult, but people need to understand that no one takes these sorts of risks because they're bad people. They need help, not fines and punishments. My mom cried when she found out about the fine. She didn't know how we'd pay it. The answer to poor people doing things because they don't have money isn't to charge them money and or lock them up. It's draconian...
55
You raise some valid points, but also highlight the risk in making policy decisions based on anecdotal experiences. It's one thing to say that the policies have a disproportionate impact on the poor or minorities and we should carefully consider if they're having the right impact. But, while your experience is a valid one, I don't think you can extrapolate and say that "no one" commits this type of offense for the wrong reasons, so we should get rid of the policy without carefully weighing pros/cons. Aggressive "broken windows" policing does seem to have worked, and now we are seeing that there was some cost in terms of potential overkill . Question is how many offenders are "good offenders" like you and how many are really bad seeds that Bratton-style policing helped prevent from committing other/more crimes, and what's the right level for our society. Your example is one data point, not the complete picture.
12
There was a sociological study of the Jewish Shtetl in Europe which described how a barefoot boy grabbed a bagel and ran off with it. The passerbys caught him, and a crowd of Jews collected. One of them said that the boy was an orphan, and the community was at fault for not taking care of him. They took him to the social service agencies to get him shoes and care for his needs.
That's why we have such compassion for criminals. New York City was settled by Jews who remember what it was like to be poor and desperate -- and by Irish, Italians, blacks, and every other group of people who remember what it was like to be poor.
Unfortunately the later generations have forgotten, or never knew. Obesity is more of a problem with them than starvation.
Nonetheless, there are those of us like Cyrus Vance who do understand that. You can't create a good society by putting as many people in jail as possible.
That's why we have such compassion for criminals. New York City was settled by Jews who remember what it was like to be poor and desperate -- and by Irish, Italians, blacks, and every other group of people who remember what it was like to be poor.
Unfortunately the later generations have forgotten, or never knew. Obesity is more of a problem with them than starvation.
Nonetheless, there are those of us like Cyrus Vance who do understand that. You can't create a good society by putting as many people in jail as possible.
2
This makes total sense and long overdue. Most farebeaters are just young adults without adequate financial resources. We working people with pre-tax commuting benefits get a reduced fare. People under 25 should too. We do ourselves a disservice over punishing for minor offenses.
8
Enforcement falls ENORMOUSLY disproportionately on poor subway riders who are mostly black and Hispanic. They simply cannot afford the fare and are punished for it. Thank you DA Vance for you effort to decriminalize the poor.
7
Respect for the law, respect for social mores, ethics ... these are fundamental to raising oneself up in society. "The poor" who strive to improve their situations need to do it within the law, within the social order.
We don't live in a lawless, unethical, corrupt society. We should be tremendously grateful for the opportunities we have. Having spent years in some middle eastern countries with radically different mores, corruption levels, and opportunities for economic advancement, I assure you, we here in the USA, ALL of us, have it incredibly lucky.
I don't care what color people are. If they flout the law they need to pay the consequences (which should be proportionate).
We don't live in a lawless, unethical, corrupt society. We should be tremendously grateful for the opportunities we have. Having spent years in some middle eastern countries with radically different mores, corruption levels, and opportunities for economic advancement, I assure you, we here in the USA, ALL of us, have it incredibly lucky.
I don't care what color people are. If they flout the law they need to pay the consequences (which should be proportionate).
13
And the verifiable data that backs this assertion up is...?
3
The last time I saw someone jump the turnstile was at the Brooklyn-bound 23rd Street Station and she had a smartphone, a fairly expensive backpack plus nice leather boots.
It'd be helpful if everybody, including this young woman, respected the law, social mores and social order.
It'd be helpful if everybody, including this young woman, respected the law, social mores and social order.
How about having a first time offender being fined and stationed at the turnstile and time that they jumped and if anyone jumps the turnstile on their watch, both go directly to jail.
10
Perhaps the NYC subway system is not turnstile jumping-proof. Not so easy in other countries. Generally the best rule is you get caught, you pay. That is what station staff are for. Those who jump turnstiles probably do it on a more frequent basis; jumpers are not those who do it just once because they didn't have the fare. It isn't right that others pay and jumpers don't. While they don't need to go to jail they certainly need to pay their share. Whatever the cause, cheapness, lack of money or thrill seeking - knock it off.
26
It's pretty easy to make it so, just change the turnstiles to the revolving gate design that is present on many stations in low income areas where fare-beating is common. These gates are barred to not allow people to get around them in anyway, though they look ugly. Perhaps a city-wide completion to see who can design the best gate in terms of attractiveness, ease of use, people flow-rate, etc?
3
Further defining deviancy down minus appropriate criminal sanctions.
23
Is the purpose of this new policy to improve the quality of life in New York or to pander to de Blasio constituencies?
56
Think this is a ruse for the mayor thumbing the nose of the governor. The subway is under the control of the state, right? If the governor cares about it, the state troopers deployed to NYC can police it.
4
Another nail in the coffin of law and order in New York City. Public urination? Go right ahead. Illegal street vendors on every corner? No problem. Fare beating in the subways? No big deal. This is the lawless environment that de Blasio has cultivated and endorsed. Pretty soon New York will look and feel like it is back in the dark ages of David Dinkins.
89
Lawless? Hardly. The NYPD are the lawless bunch, Daniel Pantaleo still walks around a free man after choking Eric Garner to death. These laws will aid those less fortunate and keep from criminalizing folks who have no reason to be bothered by the judicial system in the first place. Quality of life is usually thinkspeak for upper class white people who believe their way of life and experiences are the only valid ones in a city of 8.5 million others.
1
@Osito: Or perhaps crime has hit bottom and will soon be on its way back up - have you considered that? If the city is safe, it has very little to with our current Mayor.
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Crime fell a record amount under Dinkins.
So I can ride the subway for free?
What gives. Petty theft should have a petty price - plead guilty in the spot, pay $100 in cash, credit or leave phone with police as collateral - otherwise go to jail.
What gives. Petty theft should have a petty price - plead guilty in the spot, pay $100 in cash, credit or leave phone with police as collateral - otherwise go to jail.
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Yea free if you like to do community service.
I don't know about the phone as collateral idea. How many of these guys have "hot" phones? They'll just go mug another one on the platform...
When I first visited New York in 1964, the subway fare was 10 cents, and the minimum wage was $1.25. Do the math! If wages had kept up with the past half-century's inflation, today's $2.75 fare would be matched by a $34 wage.
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The fare in 1964 was 15 cents. I paid it often.
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$2.75 sounds like a lot for someone working for minimum wage trying to get home.
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Fifteen cents in 1964. Like a slice of pizza!
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So the message to honest folks who pay despite economic hardship because it's the right thing to do is that they are stupid. Why not just subsidize bus service so that it's free and give people a choice - the slow way or the faster way? Then you can fire the select bus police and put those resources towards schools, transit, or a plethora of other necessary services.
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Only in DeBlasio's New York City would a moronic policy like this be advanced. Just as in parenting our children, softening the consequences of negative behavior will only engender more of the wrong behavior. Have fun in the jungle New Yorkers!
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Think this is a ruse for the mayor thumbing the nose of the governor. The subway is under the control of the state, right? If the governor cares about it, the state troopers deployed to NYC can police it.
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Bear Boy,
According to Citydata.com for 2015 (the last year full data is available), the overall crime index for NYC (the entire city) is 229.3 The average across the US is 286.7 The number for St.Paul, where you live...... 390.7
Have fun in the jungle of St. Paul, Bear Boy. Like Casey Stangle said: "You cud look it up.".
According to Citydata.com for 2015 (the last year full data is available), the overall crime index for NYC (the entire city) is 229.3 The average across the US is 286.7 The number for St.Paul, where you live...... 390.7
Have fun in the jungle of St. Paul, Bear Boy. Like Casey Stangle said: "You cud look it up.".
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They've actually been arresting people for jumping turnstiles?
What happened to just giving them a ticket or a summons?
'Broken windows' may have some merit if kids are actually breaking windows, or destructively vandalizing, but not going on the subway & not paying. Anyway, what turnstile is still jump-able anymore, last I saw they were all like cages of interlocking stainless steel & electronic.
What happened to just giving them a ticket or a summons?
'Broken windows' may have some merit if kids are actually breaking windows, or destructively vandalizing, but not going on the subway & not paying. Anyway, what turnstile is still jump-able anymore, last I saw they were all like cages of interlocking stainless steel & electronic.
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Those summonses are returnable to Criminal Court if the person has valid ID.
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If this is a pervasive problem, why not eliminate the fare making public transit a public benefit; taxpayers are already picking up much of the the tab for operating costs and court court/jail expenses.
Perhaps free public transit will encourage more drivers to leave their cars at home. System upgrades are a necessity, of course,
Perhaps free public transit will encourage more drivers to leave their cars at home. System upgrades are a necessity, of course,
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That's a good suggestion. Reduce the fare to a $1. And use rf rather than the magnetic strip. So much thrown away metro cards. Why not have an RF card that never expires
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COME2: The value of a dollar is insignificant. Get rid to the fare, turnstiles, which require maintenance, and take the clerks out of their booths and put them on the platforms for security and rider service.
The subway is very overcrowded with 6 million daily riders.
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"Advocates for the poor and for subway riders have complained that the fare evasion arrests amount to the criminalization of poverty, since many people jump turnstiles because they cannot afford the $2.75 fare." That statement is a blanket justification for almost all theft committed by persons guilty of fare evasion. Most of the items or services we need to survive cost more than $2.75.
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Yes if you create huge income and wealth gaps what do you expect ?
Come2Jesus:
Thanks for responding to my post.
I take it from your handle, you are religious. It is clear that Christ and many others of whom the Bible spoke were exceptionally smart and smarter than many others. Therefore, there was a huge smartness gap. Who was responsible for that?
Certainly, we would like for all able Americans to meet the needs of themselves and families. The question is, how best to achieve that end?
Thanks for responding to my post.
I take it from your handle, you are religious. It is clear that Christ and many others of whom the Bible spoke were exceptionally smart and smarter than many others. Therefore, there was a huge smartness gap. Who was responsible for that?
Certainly, we would like for all able Americans to meet the needs of themselves and families. The question is, how best to achieve that end?
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"the collateral consequences of such aggressive practices, particularly for young black and Hispanic men, have come under pointed criticism"
Should the rules really be changed because certain groups just cant seem to follow simple laws that benefits us all subway riders?
Should the rules really be changed because certain groups just cant seem to follow simple laws that benefits us all subway riders?
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"... certain groups just can't seem to follow simple laws": you make it sound like certain groups have certain mental processing problems. Certain groups on average currently have fewer resources than others and hence may be relatively likely to, say, jump a turnstile on the way to or from a low wage job.
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Yes Jonathan I am sure the majority of turnstile jumpers are going to work, school or church.
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Not sure what you mean by "certain groups." Even if most fare beaters are young black and Hispanic men, that does not mean that most young black and Hispanic men are fare beaters.
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If the broken windows is correct, then the number of crimes will now rise. Of course decriminalizing such acts will also reduce the number of crimes. Must make those Compstat numbers look good.
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Let's do the math: 100 hours of community service for a $2.75 theft of a subway fare? Even at 50 hours, that seems like a bad deal. Why not just dismiss the case conditionally, as we commonly do for misdemeanors, so long as the person avoids trouble for six months? That's a better deal than endless obligations to do busy work. One usually doesn't need therapy simply for jumping a turnstile. And these programs look like minefields for failure and inevitably, conviction and punishment.
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I don't think so, not it it's done properly. Community service could be street cleaning or park cleaning, it could be cleaning up graffiti, it could be a number of things that could really help make NYC a nicer place to live. For those that do good work, perhaps their service could translate into a permanent job?
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After a couple decades, don't we have enough police records and evidence to correlate the turnstile jumpers with other more serious crimes these scofflaws were supposed to have committed? Perhaps this is what DA Vance did and concluded the jumpers are not responsible for the awful felonies that the "broken windows" theory postulated.
How long must the political science experiment go on before the theorem is proved or disproved? Apparently, cracking down on petty crimes is just petty.
How long must the political science experiment go on before the theorem is proved or disproved? Apparently, cracking down on petty crimes is just petty.
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In most other countries including virtually all of Europe nobody goes anywhere. The officer issues a claim for many multiples of the fare and it is to be paid on the spot. if they don't pay they go to court but I'm not sure if its instantly. A much better use of resources.
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Europe and Asia have far lower rates of violent crime. This may have worked (and was the system here) decades ago, but the fact is NYC is still a more dangerous place than those other places you are comparing to. Deterrent effects from policing are perhaps more critical here.
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Hey it's legal to steal in NYC!
Ant the rest pay the freight.
Ant the rest pay the freight.
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One question for Mr. Vance: with regard to the turnstile jumpers who greet passengers with their all-too-familiar "Showtime, ladies and gentlemen," and who then proceed with their unsafe acrobatics and deafening music - are they considered a harmless nuisance, or will the DA and the NYPD make a more concerted effort to rid the trains of these dangerous, inconsiderate and frequent violators of the social compact?
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Isn't that part of the New York experience?
I agree with Matt, it is a part of the NY experience, but one of many I could do without. I'm pretty sure they don't pay the fares to get on, since it's usually a group of athletic young black men they can probably get away with jumping unless a real officer is nearby. This isn't racism, just facts. If you have a problem with it then change the way that group operates or convince me that my view is truly incorrect.
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A blind eye has always been turned here. If a police officers dare do their duty in these instances there would be hell to pay: protests at police plaza, irate city council members gnashing their teeth on television, shouts of racism. Watch the eyes, patronizing grins, and the way folks tightly clutch their bags on the subway when these "performances" go on. Yes, good for the city, enjoy the New York experience.
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