BC has had a hard right wing govt. for 16 years hopefully on the way out. Ironically it is called the BC Liberal Party..no relationship to our Federal Liberal Party which is centre-left. The first premier under this bunch did the deregulation gig. One crazy example: they did away with the requirement for training and certification in cosmetology which resulted in people with burned faces. I think they later back tracked on that one.
Homer wakes up in the burn unit and questions whether deregulation is good for him after all.
Re your headline: Oh no, couldn't be.
3
To answer the headline: Yes. It Has.
When I saw those first terrible images of the high rise in flames, I immediately flashed back to the North & South Towers of the original WTC.
I realize a jumbo jet and its full load of fuel as an accelerant is different than the electrical (refrigerator?) issue at Grenfell Tower.
But I knew the result would be similarly catastrophic, in per capita terms and in the utter terror those involved felt, especially those trapped and who could not get down or be reached.
Subsequent investigations into 9/11 exposed the lack of fireproofing on upper floors of both buildings, as well as other shortcuts taken during initial construction. And I realize NY, in the '70s (and today?) has its own way & culture of dealing with real estate / construction / inspectors, etc.
Still, and obviously, in the aftermath of 9/11, it's no excuse.
Similarly, in London, at Grenfall Towers, to find out that the building was essentially a tinderbox due to construction materials and decisions to choose profit over people ... it's criminal.
And beyond sad.
~ 9/11 family member
When I saw those first terrible images of the high rise in flames, I immediately flashed back to the North & South Towers of the original WTC.
I realize a jumbo jet and its full load of fuel as an accelerant is different than the electrical (refrigerator?) issue at Grenfell Tower.
But I knew the result would be similarly catastrophic, in per capita terms and in the utter terror those involved felt, especially those trapped and who could not get down or be reached.
Subsequent investigations into 9/11 exposed the lack of fireproofing on upper floors of both buildings, as well as other shortcuts taken during initial construction. And I realize NY, in the '70s (and today?) has its own way & culture of dealing with real estate / construction / inspectors, etc.
Still, and obviously, in the aftermath of 9/11, it's no excuse.
Similarly, in London, at Grenfall Towers, to find out that the building was essentially a tinderbox due to construction materials and decisions to choose profit over people ... it's criminal.
And beyond sad.
~ 9/11 family member
5
Ah. Re-looking deregulation ... just in the nick of time.
2
The Grenfell Towers tragedy was facilitated by a group of inter-generational sociopaths that have risen to power; they put individual interests of the already well-off and powerful ahead of the most vulnerable. Deregulation is a manifestation of this disgusting behavior; they would rather first have a tragedy happen than prevent one if that would save them a dollar. It's a dollar over a life. Balance sheets move them more than a poor homeless person on the street.
It is a self-serving fallacy that all morality has to suspended in pursuit of corporate profits over human decency.
It is a self-serving fallacy that all morality has to suspended in pursuit of corporate profits over human decency.
5
Has deregulation gone too far?
Obviously some in government view the Grenfell catastrophe as a wake-up call.
The Tory government was just about to engage in a public consultation on regulations that would have seriously watered down fire safety requirements in new school buildings, including removing the requirement for sprinklers. This was over the written objections of fire safety experts. The reason given by schools minister Nick Gibb was cost cutting: “including sprinklers in new school buildings would add between 2% and 6% to the cost of works”.
The proposed regulations have been withdrawn.
It should also be noted that a study following a fire in another London high rise, Lakanal House, recommended changes to the building regulations. The changes were kicked down the road at every opportunity.
Obviously some in government view the Grenfell catastrophe as a wake-up call.
The Tory government was just about to engage in a public consultation on regulations that would have seriously watered down fire safety requirements in new school buildings, including removing the requirement for sprinklers. This was over the written objections of fire safety experts. The reason given by schools minister Nick Gibb was cost cutting: “including sprinklers in new school buildings would add between 2% and 6% to the cost of works”.
The proposed regulations have been withdrawn.
It should also be noted that a study following a fire in another London high rise, Lakanal House, recommended changes to the building regulations. The changes were kicked down the road at every opportunity.
2
Regulators/regulations exist because without them shortcuts are taken. People are (for the most part) greedy. Privatizing and removing or weakening regulations leads to bad outcomes.
Yet that is what politicians (mostly Republicans) keep hammering at and pushing for. I don't want a profit motive for prisons. Already terrible. I don't want banks that are out of control leading to another near-disaster. And, I certainly don't want innocent people dying in a high-rise that was improperly constructed.
Yet that is what politicians (mostly Republicans) keep hammering at and pushing for. I don't want a profit motive for prisons. Already terrible. I don't want banks that are out of control leading to another near-disaster. And, I certainly don't want innocent people dying in a high-rise that was improperly constructed.
5
Omissions: The failure of British (and US) government extends beyond placing funding concerns before the concern for life - representative government itself collapsed. 1) Specific fire hazards brought to the attention of the Council by residents - over years - were ignored; i.e. information itself was forfeit here. 2) The forfeiture of information is further evidenced in the continued phrase "at least 79 dead". The Council has the number of total Grenfell residents and the number of those saved. Nonetheless, it refuses to reveal the difference and provide the public the number of missing.
2
'... those regulations, however inadequate they have proved, are the same for all buildings, not just those of the poor.'
Seriously, Mr. Erlanger? Are bankers and stock traders being forced out of their homes because of combustible cladding? Look forward to an update if thats the case. If not, I think your observation obscures the point ...
Seriously, Mr. Erlanger? Are bankers and stock traders being forced out of their homes because of combustible cladding? Look forward to an update if thats the case. If not, I think your observation obscures the point ...
3
Deregulation was going to far when it started.
We should have learned that Privatization has gone too far with ENRON. The rolling blackouts in 2000 were intentionally caused to raise the prices of electricity. The cities that had privatized their public power were hit the hardest. Cities like Seattle, that kept public utilities in the hands of We the People, suffered less if at all from both power outages and price increases.
The black outs in New England in 2003 were traced back to infrastructure that had been neglected by privatized utilities.
We need to take our public infrastructure back. We need to regulate businesses who could care less about the social damage they do so long as their bottom line comes before the public good.
We should have learned that Privatization has gone too far with ENRON. The rolling blackouts in 2000 were intentionally caused to raise the prices of electricity. The cities that had privatized their public power were hit the hardest. Cities like Seattle, that kept public utilities in the hands of We the People, suffered less if at all from both power outages and price increases.
The black outs in New England in 2003 were traced back to infrastructure that had been neglected by privatized utilities.
We need to take our public infrastructure back. We need to regulate businesses who could care less about the social damage they do so long as their bottom line comes before the public good.
6
We must understand that the U.K. has a House of Commons that is elected by the people and an un-elected House of Lords. It answers to no-one. The House of Lords represents wealth, royalty and privilege. Conservatives believe in austerity, class hierarchy and perks for the rich. The poor can shift for themselves. If a building has sub-standard fire and safety faults then it is the responsibility of residents to know about and and to find housing elsewhere if they're concerned.
Big business demanded less regulation, less oversight and more profit at the expense of the safety of the public. Strangely the Britons also believe that "privatization has gone too far and the state has shrunk too much."
In the United States the great majority of housing is privately owned. Even public housing may have been built and owned by a private company that leases it to the state, county or local government.
What makes the U.S. different is that building codes, especially fire, electric, sewer, roofing and other structural elements are codes that are enforced by government and cannot be set aside regardless of whether or not a building is for public or private use.
I've been to London. It is not New York or Chicago or LA. Its different. In New York if a high rise or even a small private home is being constructed we expect a a qualified civil engineer to inspect on going construction and assure that all codes and standards are met. Our public does not resist safety requirements.
Big business demanded less regulation, less oversight and more profit at the expense of the safety of the public. Strangely the Britons also believe that "privatization has gone too far and the state has shrunk too much."
In the United States the great majority of housing is privately owned. Even public housing may have been built and owned by a private company that leases it to the state, county or local government.
What makes the U.S. different is that building codes, especially fire, electric, sewer, roofing and other structural elements are codes that are enforced by government and cannot be set aside regardless of whether or not a building is for public or private use.
I've been to London. It is not New York or Chicago or LA. Its different. In New York if a high rise or even a small private home is being constructed we expect a a qualified civil engineer to inspect on going construction and assure that all codes and standards are met. Our public does not resist safety requirements.
4
The problem is not just deregulation, the discussion must include "Private Funding Initiatives" and Public-Private Partnerships, programs which claim to use private money for public needs, and enlist the 'effiency' of the private market. Grenfell Towers was clad under PFI. A lot of outrageously but substandard buildings for schools and hospitals have been built under these programs. And big international companies have just walked away from their obligations after their winning bid did not make enough profit for them, including subway lines in London. Keep the profitable ones, dump the rest on the state.
Chicago and other cities have proposed and implemented such actions as far back as the most recent Mayor Daley - one painful example was the sale (fire-sale priced) of parking meter revenue in Chicago.
Chicago and other cities have proposed and implemented such actions as far back as the most recent Mayor Daley - one painful example was the sale (fire-sale priced) of parking meter revenue in Chicago.
2
"U.K. Asks: Has Deregulation Gone Too Far?"
Is this a serious question? Isn't the answer patently obvious?
• Deregulate housing codes, and people die in massive fires that are a direct result of the lack of regulation.
• Deregulate Big banks and watch almost-Great Depression 2 descend in 2008 -- and continue to roll back regulations enacted as a direct result of that fiasco!
• Deregulate established environmental protections (and defenestrate the EPA) and watch air, water, and ground pollution soar.
The question is NOT really "Has deregulation gone to far?" but rather "How much damage has irresponsible deregulation done?" and "Why do civilized countries (like the US and UK) continue to follow this willfully irresponsible path?" (Hint: Big Money, corruption, and Republicans / Tories... for starters)
Is this a serious question? Isn't the answer patently obvious?
• Deregulate housing codes, and people die in massive fires that are a direct result of the lack of regulation.
• Deregulate Big banks and watch almost-Great Depression 2 descend in 2008 -- and continue to roll back regulations enacted as a direct result of that fiasco!
• Deregulate established environmental protections (and defenestrate the EPA) and watch air, water, and ground pollution soar.
The question is NOT really "Has deregulation gone to far?" but rather "How much damage has irresponsible deregulation done?" and "Why do civilized countries (like the US and UK) continue to follow this willfully irresponsible path?" (Hint: Big Money, corruption, and Republicans / Tories... for starters)
10
Trump is a deregulator
To untrammeled profits he'll cater,
Climate or pollution
Free market solution
Comes first and the illnesses later.
To untrammeled profits he'll cater,
Climate or pollution
Free market solution
Comes first and the illnesses later.
3
Gee, it sounds like the arguments we have here. If people didn't get greedy or look for profits at any cost, or make low ball estimates, or do other interesting and dangerous things to further their ambitions we wouldn't need regulations. Human nature being what it is, we need them to protect us from ourselves. I see no reason to give any industry a break on regulations because all of them have shown that they cannot be trusted to regulate themselves or operate for the benefit of consumers, patients, or any other category of human being.
10
After Fire, Britain Asks if Deregulation Has Gone Too Far
[ Tragic-comedy in a headline. Imagine covering dozens of high-rise apartment buildings in flammable coatings, what madness and state neglect. ]
[ Tragic-comedy in a headline. Imagine covering dozens of high-rise apartment buildings in flammable coatings, what madness and state neglect. ]
5
Third-world countries would see "deregulation" in first-world countries as "corruption".
8
I once lived in a Philadelphia brownstone building, which was poorly maintained though the rent was expensive. When I filed a complaint for a number of code violations, including safety issues (the mandatory fire escape was almost rusted through), a city inspector came within a week or so, filed a violation report, and fined the owner and required improvements. It's hard to believe that in Britain, a high rise building is exempt from the most basic fire safety regulations because "they weren't required in 1974".
7
Who knows how far back deregulation in the USA started. There was Reagan, Bush Sr., Bush Junior, and now Mr. Trump. That's a lot of deregulation! Who knows what municipal, state, and federal regulations were deregulated or rescinded under these Republicans.
8
Why in the world are you blaming only Republicans here and leaving out Clinton and Obama? It was under Clinton that deregulation of Wall Street and banks changed the whole world, causing financial catastrophes equivalent to bonfires! Failing to punish culprits, Obama threw wood on the fire.
I am currently living in London - not far from the tragedy. As a matter of fact, I went by there to pay respects at the make shift Memorial. Seeing the charred remains left me to wonder how anyone could escape.
A tragedy indeed.
Now, Mr. Vince below talks about the "cowboy" safety culture in this country.
I am surprised.
I worked in the North Sea and spent a good amount of time working here. If anything, at least in my industry, post a terrible disaster of Piper Alpha - the safety standards in the UK are more stringent than what we have in America.
To me, the real tragedy is this fog of responsibility between the tenants and the "council". The NY Times carried another story about safety standards in NY as compared to these in London high rise.
None of the London practices would pass the NY standards.
It's time to start educating these folks in high rise on safety precautions, conduct drills etc. Empowered tenants are the best protections money can buy.
A tragedy indeed.
Now, Mr. Vince below talks about the "cowboy" safety culture in this country.
I am surprised.
I worked in the North Sea and spent a good amount of time working here. If anything, at least in my industry, post a terrible disaster of Piper Alpha - the safety standards in the UK are more stringent than what we have in America.
To me, the real tragedy is this fog of responsibility between the tenants and the "council". The NY Times carried another story about safety standards in NY as compared to these in London high rise.
None of the London practices would pass the NY standards.
It's time to start educating these folks in high rise on safety precautions, conduct drills etc. Empowered tenants are the best protections money can buy.
10
Woe to a society that forgets why regulations were instituted in the first place. Just read the Jungle from Upton Sinclair for a view of a deregulated society. Sure, get rid of outmoded or irrelevant regulations, but let's not throw out the baby with the bath water. We are safer as a society when there are rules in place to protect us.
12
The problem wasn't deregulation, it was the failure of regulations to keep up with new materials and methods. New York is filled with apartment buildings built in the 1920's out of reinforced concrete with brick exteriors. No sprinklers, no automatic fire doors, no alarm system. When an apartment fire happens it is confined to one unit even if that unit is fully involved, with flames shooting out of the windows. No casualties outside the apartment where the fire started.
If flammable cladding hadn't been installed, Grenfell tower would have been safe, with one apartment destroyed by an exploding refrigerator. Had the cladding been filled with non-flammable insulation (such as the widely used fiberglass or rock wool), the fire would not have spread. Regulation cannot anticipate every stupid decision, but education and common sense can prevent stupid decisions.
If flammable cladding hadn't been installed, Grenfell tower would have been safe, with one apartment destroyed by an exploding refrigerator. Had the cladding been filled with non-flammable insulation (such as the widely used fiberglass or rock wool), the fire would not have spread. Regulation cannot anticipate every stupid decision, but education and common sense can prevent stupid decisions.
7
It is a horrid, preventable tragedy but all of the anger seems to be directed at the government. Why isn't most of this anger directed at the manufacturer of the cladding, the construction crews that installed it, etc.? It seems like society always gives a free pass to private companies that produce inferior products, even when they knowingly do so in order to reap bigger profits. If society says they don't want an activist government then more responsibility has to be placed on the private sector to make up the difference. Can't have it both ways.
9
The Economist, UK's leading weekly, states this, as the last sentence in it analysis of the fire:
"If the regulations had been properly enforced, Grenfell might not now be a charred shell."
That is, it is NOT a failure of regulation, it IS a FAILURE of Government TO ENFORCE EXISTING REGULATIONS.
Link:
http://www.economist.com/news/international/21723821-proper-enforcement-...
"If the regulations had been properly enforced, Grenfell might not now be a charred shell."
That is, it is NOT a failure of regulation, it IS a FAILURE of Government TO ENFORCE EXISTING REGULATIONS.
Link:
http://www.economist.com/news/international/21723821-proper-enforcement-...
1
"That is, it is NOT a failure of regulation, it IS a FAILURE of Government TO ENFORCE EXISTING REGULATIONS."
I'm not sure this is right. I think the whole thing about the regulations is a bit more complex. The type of cladding used was not banned.
https://www.designingbuildings.co.uk/wiki/ACM_cladding
I'm not sure this is right. I think the whole thing about the regulations is a bit more complex. The type of cladding used was not banned.
https://www.designingbuildings.co.uk/wiki/ACM_cladding
Grenfell was owned by the government.
If there is one thing you can be sure of, it is that the government will never apply regulations to itself. No inspector will issue a fine against the government, which is his employer.
If there is one thing you can be sure of, it is that the government will never apply regulations to itself. No inspector will issue a fine against the government, which is his employer.
5
It's not just in medicine that profit first is a bad idea. Profit first is a bad idea for society, as we are seeing more and more these days.
26
We in the US also need a discussion / debate on our national priorities. Do we want corporate wealth (which trickles down to the ultra-rich shareholders) too grow, at the expense of the we'll-being and common good of the rest of us? We need to tax at very high rates all assets and income over a certain amount, so we can afford safe public housing, a good educational system and a universal single-payer health care system for all. Let's stop subsidizing corporations and developers over the working class.
16
Regulations protect the majority of the population from the actions and inaction of a few. It would be nice to think that we all have each other's well being in mind but unfortunately there are a small number of our citizens whose greed, lack of morality, or lack of responsibility put their wants before all other considerations. Regulations set the stage for prosecuting those who want to do harm through action or inaction.
27
Those combustible cladding codes that were "de-regulated" were put in place _exactly_ to prevent this kind of fire. So what is the mentality of those who decided to remove the codes? What they did was akin to suddenly not requiring cars to be equipped with seat belts and airbags. It is criminal, can the state punish itself?
11
No, it's not a question. Yes, deregulation has gone too far virtually everywhere. As long as political candidtes get away with the simplistic Reagan mantra that government is the problem for everything everywhere and deregulation will unleash the miracles of economic growth, we will continue to have ignorant voters elect ignorant governance. Look no further than the White House.
12
I think the focus should remain on Arconic here, and less so on deregulation. It is plainly immoral that they would sell such materials with knowledge that they were not suited for this use. As long as corporations can get away with things like this, they will continue to do so. That has to stop.
5
If there are regulations in place and are monitored, they won't be able to get away with that. Without regulations, who knows?
3
De-regulation going too far? You are kidding, right?
The Grenfell Tower disaster is a natural result of Thatcher's UK- a competitive market that the bottom line outweighs all safety concerns.
Guess what? like Briexit, we are next.
The Grenfell Tower disaster is a natural result of Thatcher's UK- a competitive market that the bottom line outweighs all safety concerns.
Guess what? like Briexit, we are next.
14
Thank goodness the US did not approve Thalidomide (thanks to Frances Kelsey). We had better regulations than other countries then and that terrible medicine was kept out of the American marketplace. Safety should always come first!
4
@NYCLAW: "Guess what? like Briexit, we are next."
We aren't next since we are already there. All these years of deregulation from the republicans have made inequality so prevalent in our country what with union busting [look at Wisconsin], what with our financial industry and what with their destruction of destroyed Dodd/Frank. And they also want to privatize our infrastructure so we'll pay for our roads and bridges, etc. forever.
We are far worse off than the British. And we have known all this for years where the British are just now seeing it. How do we fight back since we appear to have no recourse other than discussing our demise in comments. Trump can do far more damage and destruction to us before the midterms and yet it appears we have no recourse but to take it.
We aren't next since we are already there. All these years of deregulation from the republicans have made inequality so prevalent in our country what with union busting [look at Wisconsin], what with our financial industry and what with their destruction of destroyed Dodd/Frank. And they also want to privatize our infrastructure so we'll pay for our roads and bridges, etc. forever.
We are far worse off than the British. And we have known all this for years where the British are just now seeing it. How do we fight back since we appear to have no recourse other than discussing our demise in comments. Trump can do far more damage and destruction to us before the midterms and yet it appears we have no recourse but to take it.
3
We don't need more regulation, we need better regulation. Regulations should fall heavily on cheaters, and lightly on honest people. Thanks to lobbyists, political compromise, and clever lawyers for the cheaters, the opposite is true. We need to improve the efficacy of regulations, which will allow us to reduce the bulk of them while increasing safety and reducing the incidence of incidents such as Grenfell Tower.
3
The primary objective of privatization is maximizing profit, not safety. Private organizations should never be placed in charge when public safety is a concern.
14
The role of Government should be the protection of people, not profits. Trickle down, laissez-faire economics seems to work rather well for the governing or upper classes but less so for those on the lower rungs of the ladder.
7
What disaster in the USA must happen for the same question to be asked here?
29
New Orleans then NJ and NY coast
2
They don't seem to have been sufficient.
3
I have taught fire safety regulation in the UK. England and Wales have a "cowboy" design culture where "anything goes". Old buildings are not improved and new buildings, (just like the RMS TITANIC) are designed to grotesquely outdated codes. As buildings age the problems get more and more obvious. I have been in relatively new and newly renovated buildings that terrified me.
Britain has a history of totally inadequate post disaster investigations. CF the Hillsborough disaster where it took 27 years to unravel the cover up. The Buncefield inquiry was another waste of time and space. It was the court that finally got to the root cause.
Public risks demand public regulation at an effective and efficient level. There is no room for ideological purity or conflict of interest.
Britain has a history of totally inadequate post disaster investigations. CF the Hillsborough disaster where it took 27 years to unravel the cover up. The Buncefield inquiry was another waste of time and space. It was the court that finally got to the root cause.
Public risks demand public regulation at an effective and efficient level. There is no room for ideological purity or conflict of interest.
44