Mr. Trump has no inclination or desire to truly understand the complexities of the Middle East. This is to the detriment of the USA.
Even though 15 of the 19 airline hijackers on 9/22/2001 were from Saudi Arabia and the Saudis finance the world wide Madrasas which spread hatred of all "infidels" worldwide, Mr. Trump sides with the Saudi's against Qatar because of his personal businesses.
Ignoring the fact that the US has a major base in Qatar, because the Saudi's are willing to do business with Mr. Trump's companies but Qatar has rebuffed him, from Mr. Trump's simplistic and ignorant perspective: Saudi Arabia good, Qatar bad.
Even though 15 of the 19 airline hijackers on 9/22/2001 were from Saudi Arabia and the Saudis finance the world wide Madrasas which spread hatred of all "infidels" worldwide, Mr. Trump sides with the Saudi's against Qatar because of his personal businesses.
Ignoring the fact that the US has a major base in Qatar, because the Saudi's are willing to do business with Mr. Trump's companies but Qatar has rebuffed him, from Mr. Trump's simplistic and ignorant perspective: Saudi Arabia good, Qatar bad.
4
Meanwhile, that batty president, Mr. t. foul-mouthes his close allies such as France and Britain (not paying enough Nato costs), and Canada (Nafta is too much in favour of Canada). As far as I'm concerned (A Canadian), it is us who were taken to the cleaners with Nafta, and not the other way around.
As for the Mid-East countries, several commentators wrote that if it weren't for the oil (Hello, the Bushes), nobody would care, and the peoples of the region would be killing each other. Oh, I forgot, they're doing that now!
As for the Mid-East countries, several commentators wrote that if it weren't for the oil (Hello, the Bushes), nobody would care, and the peoples of the region would be killing each other. Oh, I forgot, they're doing that now!
2
"The Saudis, aided by American intelligence and arms, may also be creating extremists with their brutal war in Yemen." Yeah, like bin Laden himSELF!! He was a Yemeni born to hatred for Saud's command of all that money, His father's wealth derived from Saudi infrastructure spending notwithstanding....Saud has no friends, just clients.
2
While the Times editors rightly highlight the saudis' role in exporting the extremist wahabbi brand of Islam, it and other liberal publications fail to understand the danger presented by this Islam to the future of humanity.
One only has to look at traditionally secular nations that have come under the grasp of political Islam, such as Indonesia, which just sentenced the mayor of its capital to jail for blasphemy.
We cannot shy away from condemning abuses of human rights no matter what religion or philosophy may make excuses for those acts. It is not islamophobic to criticize a hateful and murderous ideology.
We in the west must remember that majorities in several Muslim nations endorse the implementation of sharia law for all inhabitants, which includes death to apostates.
Saudi Arabia is to blame for most of this. And our government just sold them over $ 100 billion worth of weapons. Shame on us. I have no doubt that they will eventually be used to kill Americans, just as with the arms given to the mujahideen in Afghanistan.
One only has to look at traditionally secular nations that have come under the grasp of political Islam, such as Indonesia, which just sentenced the mayor of its capital to jail for blasphemy.
We cannot shy away from condemning abuses of human rights no matter what religion or philosophy may make excuses for those acts. It is not islamophobic to criticize a hateful and murderous ideology.
We in the west must remember that majorities in several Muslim nations endorse the implementation of sharia law for all inhabitants, which includes death to apostates.
Saudi Arabia is to blame for most of this. And our government just sold them over $ 100 billion worth of weapons. Shame on us. I have no doubt that they will eventually be used to kill Americans, just as with the arms given to the mujahideen in Afghanistan.
3
truth be told, if it weren't for oil, no one in the industrialized West would care much about anyone in the Mid East. Our goals should be to minimize our dependence on the region (i.e., oil for transportation) and work to see that no one entity is a mortal threat to any of the other regional actors. Thus, Iraq should be a federation (TY to the Kurds, too bad Turkey), Syria could be dismembered as well. In the mean time, support middle class values and the concept that women are free human beings. Or, pay trillions in war costs and avoid making calls to families in lowa to explain why their child who joined the military died for no reason at all.
6
We have to dig a little deeper for the origins of the mess the West faces today in trying to combat ISIS, et al. A few years ago I came across a photo of FDR shaking hands with the Saudi king at the time. I can't remember the exact text of the article, but what happened at that time was very simple. The West needed Saudi oil, so we made a "deal with the devil": Saudi oil for the protection and support of the Saudi monarchy, in spite of their extremely conservative version of Islam. I can't imagine our government (and others) were not aware of this, but at the time it was "realpolitik." Every administration since has signed onto this "deal," probably in spite of significant misgivings, and a lot of people keeping their fingers crossed.
The inevitable question? If the Saudi monarchy goes down because of condemnation of wahhabism and we don't need their oil any more, what replaces it? Scary thought for another op-ed to consider.
The inevitable question? If the Saudi monarchy goes down because of condemnation of wahhabism and we don't need their oil any more, what replaces it? Scary thought for another op-ed to consider.
1
I'm just speculating. If the west doesn't need Saudi oil and the monarchy collapses, the Wahhabis and other fundamentalists will also suffer terminal unpleasantness from lack of funding. That day is coming - but of course accompanied unfortunately by the prerequisite blood shed.
2
Maybe the Secret Plan for fighting ISIS is TOO secret. Or perhaps nonexistent. Or Jared is working on it. OR, maybe ISIS will be hired to build the " big, beautiful " Wall. Yeah, that's it.
5
I find it very hard to believe that Saudi Arabia has a 'zero tolerance' for ISIS, which is, after all, nothing but a Sunni extremist group.
Perhaps the Saudi *government* has zero tolerance, but that hardly means that several wealthy Saudis do.
And with the kind of wealth we are referencing, a number can become a whole lot larger than zero.
Perhaps the Saudi *government* has zero tolerance, but that hardly means that several wealthy Saudis do.
And with the kind of wealth we are referencing, a number can become a whole lot larger than zero.
3
Why leave Israel out of the mix? They have been as active as the other 3 in financing, and helping in other ways, terrorists in Syria, as confirmed by WSJ yesterday. Qatar has the cleanest hands among all of them.
3
I'm wondering what has become of the chest-thumping King of Jordan. Remember? The one who was held up as a REAL leader in comparison with Barrack Obama....
2
Do you think Trump gets this?
2
Imagine how it would complicate international diplomacy if our government funded hundreds of schools teaching Westboro Baptist theology around the world. It would magnify the hate, intensify the animosity, and increase the violence. Russia would call on the Security Council to establish sanctions against the United States.
The question about all this hypocrisy is not "Which country is right?" Any support for terrorism is wrong. Period. Full stop. The question is, "How can we encourage a larger percentage of Muslims to reject religious-based terrorism?"
In a Pew Global Attitudes Project poll, released in 2011, 68 percent of Palestinian Muslim respondents said suicide bombings against civilians were justifiable “to defend Islam from its enemies.” Thankfully this is changing for the better, but speeding up the process should be our goal, and we should stop anything that slows down this transformation, and try anything to speed it up.
The question about all this hypocrisy is not "Which country is right?" Any support for terrorism is wrong. Period. Full stop. The question is, "How can we encourage a larger percentage of Muslims to reject religious-based terrorism?"
In a Pew Global Attitudes Project poll, released in 2011, 68 percent of Palestinian Muslim respondents said suicide bombings against civilians were justifiable “to defend Islam from its enemies.” Thankfully this is changing for the better, but speeding up the process should be our goal, and we should stop anything that slows down this transformation, and try anything to speed it up.
2
When our paper acknowledges that it has supported military intervention in Iraq, in Libya and in Syria and offers a genuine apology we - its readers - will begin to trust it. There would be no ISIS if the interventions had not happened.
6
ISIS is just about kaput, if you haven't heard.
What I find interesting is the collusion with wahhabis who are single handedly responsible for resurgence of jihadism and islamist radicalism as opposed to vilifying Iran, which has historically been a staunch US ally. Even today, the bulk of Iranians are pro-Western and even pro-American; I'd challenge anyone to compare them to Saudis, Pakistanis or any other Arab ally. Working with Iran makes much more geopolitical sense than working with the Arabs, or Israel. Unfortunately, the State Dept hands are tied for internal political reasons not because buttering up the Saudis and confronting Iran makes sense.
2
Wouldn't it be 'funny' to find out that 'America' funds ISIS? I mean, everyone seems against it, yet they seem very well armed. So, where are they getting their money? Who is selling them their arms?
3
Wrote an earlier comment that was quite similar. How come there are no news articles about where ISIS gets its weapons? Is it because they get them from US arms manufacturers? And their chief lobbyist is??
American (oil) money used to buy American guns used to kill Americans and civilians throughout the Middle East. Makes perfect sense to the NRA
American (oil) money used to buy American guns used to kill Americans and civilians throughout the Middle East. Makes perfect sense to the NRA
4
Good point about who manufactures and sells arms; it ain't ISIS.
Saudi Arabia is a medieval barbaric monarchy and brutal dictatorship that beheads its own citizens and stones its women. The Saudi royal family sends its children to prep schools in the U.S. and the U.K., and then to Ivy League universities or Oxford or Cambridge. These princes return home to count their petro-dollars and fund Wahhabism and ISIS. Saudi Arabia is the birthplace of Osama bin Ladin and 15/19 of the 9-11 hijackers.
I fail to understand why we even recognize Saudi Arabia as a nation. We don't need their oil anymore. We should cut them loose diplomatically. And if they ever try to mess with us, I would say we should bomb them back to the stone age -- but they are already there.
I fail to understand why we even recognize Saudi Arabia as a nation. We don't need their oil anymore. We should cut them loose diplomatically. And if they ever try to mess with us, I would say we should bomb them back to the stone age -- but they are already there.
5
You write: "Syria’s notorious butcher, President Bashar al-Assad." For any fair and informed American, compared to Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, and George W. Bush, who loosed the unnecessary, pointless death of hundreds and hundreds of thousands in Iraq and the Middle East which they inflamed (treasonous lies about "weapons of mass destruction", etc.), Assad is almost saintly. So why do you indulge in this kind of name-calling and encourage such rampant jingoism that leads to deadly militarism? Surely you can't be serious in regarding Assad's political actions as more immoral or irresponsible than Cheney's? Don't countless deaths of real, actual people matter who didn’t need to die? Don't you see how dangerous your rhetorical “American exceptionalism” has become? How about repeating this inconvenient truth: The "notorious", incompetent, disgusting, pointless and endless butchery of Dick Cheney in the Mideast far exceeds anything imaginable about Assad or Khadafi or others we have demonized.
6
U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East is based on the Casablanca Doctrine:
"I am shocked- shocked- to find that terrorism is supported by this country!"
"I am shocked- shocked- to find that terrorism is supported by this country!"
1
For anyone looking for a "pal" in the Middle East, I have a bridge to sell you.
The reality of the Middle East is that it is nothing more than a sea of alliances that shift like the sand the countries are built on.
The reality of the Middle East is that it is nothing more than a sea of alliances that shift like the sand the countries are built on.
2
So now we are blaming the US relationship with Saudi Arabia on Trump?
You're absolutely right, Jack. Just like his money, he inherited this from a long line of Republicans -- W., Cheney, Wolfowitz, GHWB, and of course, the Republican Great God Brown, Ronnie boy.
2
It is my belief that we have been fighting the threats to our freedoms in a fashion which plays directly into the proponents of a religious war. History is full of nations fighting and ultimately losing religious wars. Anyone hear of the crusades? In the 20th Century, it could be said that Hitler was fighting a religious war and we all know how that ended. In my opinion, we as a people would be better served if we followed the money. Someone is buying the weapons. Wherever there is purchase there is a source of cash. That cash has a name attached to it. The processing of that cash to the seller of the goods and services required for the terrorist's use has a name attached to it. How quickly would the funds dry up if it were discovered that the international operations of domestic and foreign financial institutions were being used to funnel money and supplies to the very groups behind the attacks on London, Paris, and New York? What would happen to the individuals funded those transactions? Would they stop if credible evidence were made public tying otherwise respected individuals to the extremists? Would people do business with those companies/individuals? What would Wall Street do? Rather than using the same gradual escalation of troops and military resources as was the strategy in Vietnam, maybe we need to work smarter. Is disclosing publicly with solid evidence the name of those who are providing the operating cash for these terror groups the smart way to go?
1
The US is not a Middle Eastern nation. We have no stake in the ancient battle between Shiites, Sunnis, and Zionists. Why is it so difficult for flag wavers to understand that?
4
The U.S. has long had all the wrong friends and wrong enemies in the Middle East.
We wonder how all these bad actors are sustained. Yet we continue to buy their oil.
We wonder how all these bad actors are sustained. Yet we continue to buy their oil.
1
There is no end to the hypocrisy in the Pentagon and the White House as well as the Middle East when it comes to fighting ISIS. We visit and cajole Middle East potentates who fund and support ISIS and then return home to say to our citizens that we are fighting ISIS. It is hard not to conclude the in many ways we (Trump and the Pentagon bureaucracy) are our own worst enemies. A Congress far too beholden to lobbying influence, and an Oval Office ignorant of the war profiteering forces leading it around, offer little hope for any healthy sunshine being applied to the governance. Maybe the current investigations offer hope but they seem to be moving without any danger of tripping in their haste.
1
Why doesn't any of the major news agencies (including the NYTimes) ever ask the simple, fundamental question that no one has asked? Who is funding ISIS? Who is giving a mechanized army of over a 10000 soldiers their weapons?
The answer is the Wahhabi-led Saudi Royal Family who Trump just signed a $450 Billion 10 year arms deal.
The second question to ask is who is buying the oil from ISIS controlled territories? There are no bank exchange tracking (SWIFT)? Turkey buys the oil and offloads it to Israel.
It is pathetic that no one in the media is educating people what is going on in the Middle East, just a bunch of fear-mongering propaganda of evil ISIS without getting to its root cause.
The answer is the Wahhabi-led Saudi Royal Family who Trump just signed a $450 Billion 10 year arms deal.
The second question to ask is who is buying the oil from ISIS controlled territories? There are no bank exchange tracking (SWIFT)? Turkey buys the oil and offloads it to Israel.
It is pathetic that no one in the media is educating people what is going on in the Middle East, just a bunch of fear-mongering propaganda of evil ISIS without getting to its root cause.
2
If only the NYT focused as much on the Saudi Royal family/government as much as they do Donald Trump. Who has actually done more damage? and let us not forget that the support for this "royal" family/government (and their arsenal of fighter jets that are used to???) under Trump is not fundamentally different from that under Obama, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Reagan, Ford, Carter, Nixon, well that's as far as I understand. This is a country that does not allow women to drive cars. and we are concerned about Putin/Russia?
The Middle East has been a mess since long before I was born, six decades ago. And it just gets worse over time. No amount of peace talks, money, prayer, weapons, or anything else seems to improve the situation, and many things (e.g. GWB's war and the passage of time itself) clearly make it worse. The dictionary defines hopeless thus:
- having no expectation of good or success
- not susceptible to remedy or cure
- incapable of redemption or improvement
- incapable of solution, management, or accomplishment
Seriously, when something is quite literally hopeless the only rational thing to do is to give up hope, and leave those people to themselves. It makes me very sad but what else is there to do? The West has tried everything except backing off. Maybe that would actually start the ball rolling in the right direction. It seems that most of the major players over there actively avoid anything that might some day resolve this quagmire into something acceptable by most.
- having no expectation of good or success
- not susceptible to remedy or cure
- incapable of redemption or improvement
- incapable of solution, management, or accomplishment
Seriously, when something is quite literally hopeless the only rational thing to do is to give up hope, and leave those people to themselves. It makes me very sad but what else is there to do? The West has tried everything except backing off. Maybe that would actually start the ball rolling in the right direction. It seems that most of the major players over there actively avoid anything that might some day resolve this quagmire into something acceptable by most.
2
Forgive if this has been brought up. Writers, it seems to me, must always identify whether the Muslim groups they are referring to are Sunni, Shiite, or something else. These problems seem to always reduce to sectarian rivalries, which instantly clarifies many situations. In our country, when people or groups are identified as republican or democrat; conservative or liberal, we can easily discern their motivations.
By all means, expose the destructive activities of the represive regimes and their enablers in Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and Iran.
But, other than giving every American his/her portion of loathing the regime de jour, what is the point here?
To pay particular attention to Saudi Arabia ? To not give Saudis a free pass as the NYT Editorial Board concludes?
What does that mean? Keep taking the Saudi oil for dollars, then keep taking the same dollars back for weapons and other American products. Right? If not, then what?
What I see: Trump is still giving the same pass, but of course it is still not free. This has been going on since oil was first protected for the American-friendly Saudi royalty.
President George W Bush had the chance to make 911 into a successful "police" effort against terrorists, but he chose to commit to unending military actions instead, and that contributed greatly to the current war zone of the Middle East.
To me, "Don't give Saudis a free pass" can be most easily be interpretted as maintaining the status quo.
But, other than giving every American his/her portion of loathing the regime de jour, what is the point here?
To pay particular attention to Saudi Arabia ? To not give Saudis a free pass as the NYT Editorial Board concludes?
What does that mean? Keep taking the Saudi oil for dollars, then keep taking the same dollars back for weapons and other American products. Right? If not, then what?
What I see: Trump is still giving the same pass, but of course it is still not free. This has been going on since oil was first protected for the American-friendly Saudi royalty.
President George W Bush had the chance to make 911 into a successful "police" effort against terrorists, but he chose to commit to unending military actions instead, and that contributed greatly to the current war zone of the Middle East.
To me, "Don't give Saudis a free pass" can be most easily be interpretted as maintaining the status quo.
3
"And some of Iran’s activities, particularly its war on ISIS, dovetail with Western ambitions."
ISIS, ISIL, Al Nusrah, Al Queda, etc. are products of U.S. intelligence and are at the forefront of the fight to oust Assad. They're financed by Saudi Arabia, Turkey, the U.S. and its allies. The terrorist groups include what are called "Syrian rebels" and "white helmets." A large number of the fighters are convicted criminals, including death row inmates, released from Saudi prisons on condition that they join ISIL and the other terrorist brigades.
ISIS, ISIL, Al Nusrah, Al Queda, etc. are products of U.S. intelligence and are at the forefront of the fight to oust Assad. They're financed by Saudi Arabia, Turkey, the U.S. and its allies. The terrorist groups include what are called "Syrian rebels" and "white helmets." A large number of the fighters are convicted criminals, including death row inmates, released from Saudi prisons on condition that they join ISIL and the other terrorist brigades.
2
Where oh where is Israel in this list of NYT Editorial Board extremist American funded ethnic sectarian supremacist malign miscreant malcontent monster nation states?
7
We've been meddling in the Middle East for decades. Why? For oil. Well, we don't need their oil any more, we have our own. It's time to back slowly out of this room filled with killers and liars. Back out with guns loaded and cocked. Once out the door, put the guns away and head home where much work awaits us.
3
ISIS is the gift that keeps giving to the military industrial complex.
Impressive assessment. I am sure my 11th grader would have come up with a much more rigorous analysis. Good job editorial board.
1
We should never forget how the Saudi family members, (including Bin Laden's), were gathered quickly and shuttled via jet out of the US right after 9/11, while the rest of the avionic industry was completely shut down. Special.
These accommodations provided by then President Bush and his affection for the Saudi family was questionable. The entire Bush clan are enamored and practically kin of the House of Saud. This is rarely, if ever, brought up anymore.
These accommodations provided by then President Bush and his affection for the Saudi family was questionable. The entire Bush clan are enamored and practically kin of the House of Saud. This is rarely, if ever, brought up anymore.
3
While the focus of this piece is "fostering and financing Islamist terrorism," the viability of that terrorism is entirely dependent on seemingly unrestricted world-wide trafficking in military grade weapons. Nonetheless, it is exceedingly rare to find in the Times or any other newspaper of note any reportage about the sources of weaponry relied upon by these extremist groups. I would not be surprised if the great bulk of the arms and ammunition the terrorists possess bears a "Made in USA" stamp. No giant leap of logic is required to postulate that our loose controls over domestic arms sales spills if not gushes into international ones as well, and the NRA, already complicit in domestic terrorism, is also complicit in terrorism world-wide.
1
We need to exit, what has become a series of civil wars in Afghanistan, Iraq and now Syria.
After withdrawal we may be able to offer some aid to victims and in time reestablish our role in the world as a model for a fair government that is based on Democratic principles.
These civil and religious wars will not end well for us as participants.
After withdrawal we may be able to offer some aid to victims and in time reestablish our role in the world as a model for a fair government that is based on Democratic principles.
These civil and religious wars will not end well for us as participants.
2
There is insufficient space here to include even a very abbreviated history of how much US interference has stirred up the wasps' nests of jihadism.
But there is room to point to the most obvious example. George W. Bush outraged every Muslim who did not thrill to the deadly danger of American shrapnel whizzing past their families' heads with his devastating invasion of Iraq. The false pretext, which the Times did little to challenge, was that Iraq had both aided and abetted 9/11 and possessed WMD.
To say the least, Muslims felt challenged, and they responded--most dramatically with ISIS and its shock tactics, which showed that a propaganda war combined with a fanatically cruel fighting force could spread the most extreme forms of jihadism right round the globe.
The Times Editorial Board understands these realities at least as well as I do, so why does it pretend that American innocence is one of the facts on the ground in the Middle East, and proceed to grade each Muslim country by its relative demerits? This is pure cynicism on the part of a trusted institution that owes its readers more truth than it's willing to share. All the news that's fit to print, indeed!
But there is room to point to the most obvious example. George W. Bush outraged every Muslim who did not thrill to the deadly danger of American shrapnel whizzing past their families' heads with his devastating invasion of Iraq. The false pretext, which the Times did little to challenge, was that Iraq had both aided and abetted 9/11 and possessed WMD.
To say the least, Muslims felt challenged, and they responded--most dramatically with ISIS and its shock tactics, which showed that a propaganda war combined with a fanatically cruel fighting force could spread the most extreme forms of jihadism right round the globe.
The Times Editorial Board understands these realities at least as well as I do, so why does it pretend that American innocence is one of the facts on the ground in the Middle East, and proceed to grade each Muslim country by its relative demerits? This is pure cynicism on the part of a trusted institution that owes its readers more truth than it's willing to share. All the news that's fit to print, indeed!
'what would you think.....if one were to redefine...'Islamist Terrorisim' ...to be
simply World-Gang Thugs....because these terrorists have no affinity to any
credible religion....These terrorists are OUTLAWS.....and they are World -Gangs
...they are not Muslims, or Jews, or Christians....they are outlaws outside of
international laws...and they must be treated as outlaws...
So STOP calling these outlaws what they are NOT The are not attached to
any religions.
simply World-Gang Thugs....because these terrorists have no affinity to any
credible religion....These terrorists are OUTLAWS.....and they are World -Gangs
...they are not Muslims, or Jews, or Christians....they are outlaws outside of
international laws...and they must be treated as outlaws...
So STOP calling these outlaws what they are NOT The are not attached to
any religions.
One reason Americans find all this confusing is that our government and media throw the word "terrorism" around indiscriminately, while at the same time excluding from its definition military actions by official governments -- except for Iran, which had the temerity to kidnap American citizens way back in my youth, and is therefore a special case forever.
Terrorism, in its root sense of military actions against civilians with the strategic purpose of making other civilians afraid, is generally a tactic of desperation used by oppressed people without conventional military power. It would be better, I think, to acknowledge the desperation and the oppression even while opposing the tactics. And of course it's not unique to Muslims (of any sect); as just one example, Zionists in Palestine in the British Mandate days used terrorism as a tactic.
I would prefer that we retire the word "terrorism" altogether. What's wrong with ISIS isn't that it's not officially recognized as a government but is still taking military action; it's that some of those actions are war crimes. (Just like the US's use of drones against civilians.)
It would be nice if the US consistently fought against crimes against humanity, whether committed by ISIS or by Saudi Arabia or by Israel or by the US itself or by Iran. Instead we have had going on a century of realpolitik, now made worse because for Trump the "real" part means not the interests of the US but the interests of Trump himself.
Terrorism, in its root sense of military actions against civilians with the strategic purpose of making other civilians afraid, is generally a tactic of desperation used by oppressed people without conventional military power. It would be better, I think, to acknowledge the desperation and the oppression even while opposing the tactics. And of course it's not unique to Muslims (of any sect); as just one example, Zionists in Palestine in the British Mandate days used terrorism as a tactic.
I would prefer that we retire the word "terrorism" altogether. What's wrong with ISIS isn't that it's not officially recognized as a government but is still taking military action; it's that some of those actions are war crimes. (Just like the US's use of drones against civilians.)
It would be nice if the US consistently fought against crimes against humanity, whether committed by ISIS or by Saudi Arabia or by Israel or by the US itself or by Iran. Instead we have had going on a century of realpolitik, now made worse because for Trump the "real" part means not the interests of the US but the interests of Trump himself.
1
Is anybody but me tired of the fiction of the Iranian terrorism threat to America? The conventional wisdom that emanates from DC is thoroughly unbelievable to me. Whoever the military industrial complex can sell weapons to makes all the difference in policy. It's really not brain surgery figuring out how things go.
1
June 19, 2017
A piece of the action and at what price and by who's is the guiding light for brave Muslim warriors to wage combat, suicide, for targets of opportunity as best understood in this warring culture that's the core directive impulse by what is always divine holy interpretive writ out of the Koran and then the teachings that are bent by national diversity - as what's Afghanistan is not the Egypt, etc.... As for funding there is full pricing selections everywhere and for whatever impact to heavenly martyrdom.
jja Manhattan, N.Y.
A piece of the action and at what price and by who's is the guiding light for brave Muslim warriors to wage combat, suicide, for targets of opportunity as best understood in this warring culture that's the core directive impulse by what is always divine holy interpretive writ out of the Koran and then the teachings that are bent by national diversity - as what's Afghanistan is not the Egypt, etc.... As for funding there is full pricing selections everywhere and for whatever impact to heavenly martyrdom.
jja Manhattan, N.Y.
1
June 19, 2017
To continue:
Just for clarity - let's say the wisdom of historic sacred writ as doctrine is as much in the cause for modernity to redefine how we learn and educate our humanity towards applications to celebrating the mysteries and miracles for living life and no God knows destruction, or worst fatefully interpretations that are misguided and by unchallenged people of all faiths and schools of holy living on earth and for the good of peace -as is often the mantra....
jja
To continue:
Just for clarity - let's say the wisdom of historic sacred writ as doctrine is as much in the cause for modernity to redefine how we learn and educate our humanity towards applications to celebrating the mysteries and miracles for living life and no God knows destruction, or worst fatefully interpretations that are misguided and by unchallenged people of all faiths and schools of holy living on earth and for the good of peace -as is often the mantra....
jja
1
Saudi Arabia is by far the largest funder of Sunni terrorist groups. It is also the largest producer of anti-Jewish & anti-Christian literature, textbooks, tv shows, & other media. The Royal Family has contributed millions to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers. The country even held a fund-raising telecast for the same purpose.
Iran funds terrorists, but only Shi'ite terrorists, like Hezbollah and Syria's Assad. Shi'ites are a small minority of Muslims. Most of them are not only Sunni, but a sizeable number, particularly among the Sunni terrorist groups like al-Qaeda & al-Nusra, are followers of the extremely rigid & puritanical Saudi form of Islam called Salafism (or Wahhabism). It is the Saudis who are spreading a form of Islam based entirely on Shari'ah law and extreme practices, like covering women, not allowing them out of the house without a male family member or husband as escort, not even allowing them to drive. Even the Taliban, who were trained in Saudi-created madrassas in Pakistan were not as strict adherents to this extremist form of the religion than the Saudis are.
Despite our forcing the Shah & his vicious Savak on them in the 50s, there are far more Iranians who look favorably on the US. When Saudis and the other Arab countries were celebrating 9/11 in the streets, 100,000 people came out into the main square in Tehran with candles to honor the dead and wounded in the attacks. We keep forcing Iran further away from us & embracing SA.
Iran funds terrorists, but only Shi'ite terrorists, like Hezbollah and Syria's Assad. Shi'ites are a small minority of Muslims. Most of them are not only Sunni, but a sizeable number, particularly among the Sunni terrorist groups like al-Qaeda & al-Nusra, are followers of the extremely rigid & puritanical Saudi form of Islam called Salafism (or Wahhabism). It is the Saudis who are spreading a form of Islam based entirely on Shari'ah law and extreme practices, like covering women, not allowing them out of the house without a male family member or husband as escort, not even allowing them to drive. Even the Taliban, who were trained in Saudi-created madrassas in Pakistan were not as strict adherents to this extremist form of the religion than the Saudis are.
Despite our forcing the Shah & his vicious Savak on them in the 50s, there are far more Iranians who look favorably on the US. When Saudis and the other Arab countries were celebrating 9/11 in the streets, 100,000 people came out into the main square in Tehran with candles to honor the dead and wounded in the attacks. We keep forcing Iran further away from us & embracing SA.
1
It’s complicated.
My dream: no country sells arms or explosive materials into the Middle East and we try to solve the problems that remain with only rocks and spears in the battle.
Hold on a minute here, please. Let me see if I get this right: You characterize Qatar, a Sunni nation, as “fostering ties” with Hezbollah in Lebanon, a Shiite organization. Meanwhile, however, Iran, a Shiite nation, is also financing Hezbollah in Lebanon. Your “primer” provides numerous other examples of how these and other bitterly opposed groups among the Sunnis and the Shiites are often seen “supporting” the same regional blocs.
Could it be, however, that financial transactions made among these various organizations are structured in more nuanced ways than the blanket term “support” would seem to suggest? Is it possible, for example, that the “ties” Qatar is “fostering” with Hezbollah involve making limited and carefully monitored financial assistance to relatively benign organizations only loosely affiliated with Hezbollah? Similarly, could it be that the type of “Wahhabism” that Saudi Arabia promotes is distinctly different in its doctrines and values from the extreme form of “Wahhabism” that ISIS promulgates? Should we be making distinctions here, instead of using broad-brush terminology?
I’m not suggesting that we should ignore the interconnections and often covert conduits that may link one branch of a complex organization or movement to another. But if the major contestants in the region keep making such distinctions when charting their own intricate strategies vis-à-vis each other, wouldn’t it behoove us to do the same?
Could it be, however, that financial transactions made among these various organizations are structured in more nuanced ways than the blanket term “support” would seem to suggest? Is it possible, for example, that the “ties” Qatar is “fostering” with Hezbollah involve making limited and carefully monitored financial assistance to relatively benign organizations only loosely affiliated with Hezbollah? Similarly, could it be that the type of “Wahhabism” that Saudi Arabia promotes is distinctly different in its doctrines and values from the extreme form of “Wahhabism” that ISIS promulgates? Should we be making distinctions here, instead of using broad-brush terminology?
I’m not suggesting that we should ignore the interconnections and often covert conduits that may link one branch of a complex organization or movement to another. But if the major contestants in the region keep making such distinctions when charting their own intricate strategies vis-à-vis each other, wouldn’t it behoove us to do the same?
This complex mess is scarcely amenable to the single page memoranda and 140 character communications favored by our short attention span President. I strongly doubt the man in the Oval Office will devote the time to read something as detailed as this editorial all the way to the end.
I predict we will lurch from crisis to crisis, with flip-flopping policies and allegiances along the way - driven by whatever information our ill-informed, erratic and undisciplined President has picked up along the way via television and far right web sites; and by whatever ostentatious display of fawning admiration and promise of riches most recently has come his way.
I predict we will lurch from crisis to crisis, with flip-flopping policies and allegiances along the way - driven by whatever information our ill-informed, erratic and undisciplined President has picked up along the way via television and far right web sites; and by whatever ostentatious display of fawning admiration and promise of riches most recently has come his way.
1
The sole issue stated here against Saudi Arabia is that it holds of a conservative form of Islam, and it pays to have this version taught to children in other countries. And it goes on to allege that ISIS, Al Qaeda and other Sunni extremists are inspired by that form of Islam, known as Wahhabism.
Now the difference between Wahhabism and ISIS is obvious. And that is that according to the Wahhabism practiced in Saudi Arabia not only is randomly killing people who do not agree with them not Jihad, it is outright murder. ISIS however came up with the belief that doing so is the loftiest thing their soul can accomplish on earth.
So the allegation that ISIS is inspired to kill from a theology that holds what they are doing is outright murder is baseless and makes no sense. The only thing the two share in common is that Islamic texts are to be taken seriously. The Saudis are not required to change their beliefs and their whole lifestyle along with it because there are crazies who by taking Islamic texts seriously concluded that Islam requires the murder of everyone on earth for no purpose at all, other than the fact that they disagree with their self concocted interpretation of Islam, and this includes the murder of adherents of Wahhabism also.
Now the difference between Wahhabism and ISIS is obvious. And that is that according to the Wahhabism practiced in Saudi Arabia not only is randomly killing people who do not agree with them not Jihad, it is outright murder. ISIS however came up with the belief that doing so is the loftiest thing their soul can accomplish on earth.
So the allegation that ISIS is inspired to kill from a theology that holds what they are doing is outright murder is baseless and makes no sense. The only thing the two share in common is that Islamic texts are to be taken seriously. The Saudis are not required to change their beliefs and their whole lifestyle along with it because there are crazies who by taking Islamic texts seriously concluded that Islam requires the murder of everyone on earth for no purpose at all, other than the fact that they disagree with their self concocted interpretation of Islam, and this includes the murder of adherents of Wahhabism also.
Between the Bush and Trump Administrations, the Obama Administration was a breath of fresh air. For this all-too-brief period of time the world had a leader committed to international cooperation, as opposed to the others hell-bent on US domination.
I fear we will not see such fresh air again, until the American electorate is capable of making educated decisions. In the meantime there will be much death and destruction.
I fear we will not see such fresh air again, until the American electorate is capable of making educated decisions. In the meantime there will be much death and destruction.
2
Look at who benefits from the US foreign policy in the ME; mainly the US and Israeli arms industries, the US oil industry, the Israeli government, and the Saudi royal family.
Look at who loses; the peoples of the ME, and all the rest of us.
Look at who loses; the peoples of the ME, and all the rest of us.
8
He'll offer this discouraging, but not wholly impossible, thought: Trump did not realize, or remember from briefings he could not focus on or briefs he did not bother to read, that we have a base in Qatar.
3
A Pox on all their houses! This has been going on for thousands of years. Leave them to their own mess. Get out of the Middle East entirely. Pull our people, money and machines. Let the peoples of the Middle East chart their own path, it can be towards brotherhood and peace or continued war. This cannot be our problem, they must solve it themselves.
We should be helping our own people. Let's solve the problems that have festered here at home: Homelessness, Hunger, Lack of Opportunity and others. Around the world, let's stop helping despots and start helping those who want to be our friends. Let's stop trading with those who mean us harm. Let us become a force for good in the world instead of the evil we have become.
We should be helping our own people. Let's solve the problems that have festered here at home: Homelessness, Hunger, Lack of Opportunity and others. Around the world, let's stop helping despots and start helping those who want to be our friends. Let's stop trading with those who mean us harm. Let us become a force for good in the world instead of the evil we have become.
7
NYT prints the "usual drivel" on Iran:
"Iran finances, trains and arms Hezbollah and other Shiite forces in Syria who have committed human rights abuses in the fight to prop up Syria’s notorious butcher, President Bashar al-Assad; anti-Israeli Hezbollah forces in Lebanon; and Shiite militants in Bahrain...also provided weapons, training and funding to Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups."
Iranian supported groups "committing human rights abuses" in Syria is relevant only if other groups are not. There is not a single group fighting in Syria, including the USA that has not committed horrific human rights abuses (I would not be surprised if Iranian supported groups are the most conscientious at avoiding abuses, of any group there.)
And the grand "crime" of supporting "anti-Israeli Hezbollah forces in Lebanon!" Are you joking? Hezbollah, formed as a social organization to service Shi'ites abused and killed in Lebanon, with the utter disregard of the US and international community, evolves into a fighting force, both for local needs and to resist Israel's repeated invasions of Lebanon. Congratulate Iran for standing up for the "human rights" you find yourself so sensitive to in Syria. And those, was it 18,000 Lebanese civilians killed in Israel's first invasion? Their fault?
And those Shi'ite militants in Bahrain? Are they fighting for "human rights?" Or again, is the NYT's definition of "human rights" restricted to Syria?
Hamas and Israel is a book.
"Iran finances, trains and arms Hezbollah and other Shiite forces in Syria who have committed human rights abuses in the fight to prop up Syria’s notorious butcher, President Bashar al-Assad; anti-Israeli Hezbollah forces in Lebanon; and Shiite militants in Bahrain...also provided weapons, training and funding to Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups."
Iranian supported groups "committing human rights abuses" in Syria is relevant only if other groups are not. There is not a single group fighting in Syria, including the USA that has not committed horrific human rights abuses (I would not be surprised if Iranian supported groups are the most conscientious at avoiding abuses, of any group there.)
And the grand "crime" of supporting "anti-Israeli Hezbollah forces in Lebanon!" Are you joking? Hezbollah, formed as a social organization to service Shi'ites abused and killed in Lebanon, with the utter disregard of the US and international community, evolves into a fighting force, both for local needs and to resist Israel's repeated invasions of Lebanon. Congratulate Iran for standing up for the "human rights" you find yourself so sensitive to in Syria. And those, was it 18,000 Lebanese civilians killed in Israel's first invasion? Their fault?
And those Shi'ite militants in Bahrain? Are they fighting for "human rights?" Or again, is the NYT's definition of "human rights" restricted to Syria?
Hamas and Israel is a book.
12
The spreading infection of Wahhabi tenets all over a formerly peaceful Austral Asia and other regions puts Saudi Arabia back in first place re perpetrators
of terrorism.
of terrorism.
7
The very first thing the United States needs to do to reduce armed conflict in the Middle East is to quit sending weapons to any Muslim factions. All weapons, whether purchased by countries or exported by our military or semi-secretly by the CIA. The big losers in all of the armed conflicts are the residents of the countries. There never will be a big winner and never will be eventual peace unless you go in an pry every single gun out of the clasping fingers of everyone. (Israelis are a separate topic.)
To everyone, with the possible exception of Israel who doesn't seem to export terrorism like the the other Arabs.
To everyone, with the possible exception of Israel who doesn't seem to export terrorism like the the other Arabs.
5
Israel may not export terrorism but it sure as heck engenders it with its confiscation and occupation of Palestinian territory. In any case, they've got a nuclear arsenal and have no further need of military assistance from the U.S. I agree that the U.S. should stop sending weapons to the Middle East but that should include Israel as well as the Muslim-majority nations.
18
No further need of financial assistance,either.
6
No mention of the US creation of and training and arming of the anti-Russian jihadists (Osama bin Laden among them)?? Does nobody remember Osama bin Laden? I believe he had something to do with the creation of Al Quada ... duh.
9
"...whatever Saudi Arabia or Qatar’s failings, Iran’s are worse because its involvement with extremist groups is sponsored by the government. "
I may be splitting hairs here, but the difference between sponsoring state terror and turning a blind eye to one's state sponsored religion inciting terror, i.e. Saudia Arabia is a bit fine.
I may be splitting hairs here, but the difference between sponsoring state terror and turning a blind eye to one's state sponsored religion inciting terror, i.e. Saudia Arabia is a bit fine.
10
There is an insidious movement to avoid the question "why?".
Why has terrorism become rampant in the past decades? Why did 9/11 occur?
The discussion of "why" is suppressed because too much logic would point the finger directly at the good ole USA. Think US hegemony in the ME. Think US economic exploitation of the ME. Think US blind support of Israel. Think of the Iraq War. Think of the US mismanagement of the Iraq War. Think of the collateral damage caused by US forces in Afghanistan.
...... and George Bush sits peacefully at his ranch watching the TV news.
Why has terrorism become rampant in the past decades? Why did 9/11 occur?
The discussion of "why" is suppressed because too much logic would point the finger directly at the good ole USA. Think US hegemony in the ME. Think US economic exploitation of the ME. Think US blind support of Israel. Think of the Iraq War. Think of the US mismanagement of the Iraq War. Think of the collateral damage caused by US forces in Afghanistan.
...... and George Bush sits peacefully at his ranch watching the TV news.
17
PS. We should be sending an elite unit to the front line in the fight against ISIS. This would include Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Perle and their close associates.
9
There is certainly no shortage of people blaming the US. No, the suppression of the question "why" is due to the fact that the groups playing victim might have to take responsibility for their own actions, including an insistence on running their societies according to a holy book instead of rational thought.
Max I hear you, and I assume you are referring to Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Israel.
5
I thought that "Israel" would take up at least half of this New York Times editorial that has as its entry caption: "There is no end to the hypocrisy in the Mideast."
I couldn't find any major mention of Israel initially. So, I copied over the entire editorial to a Word file and used the "Find" function and the word "Israel." The "Find" function returned only one result: "anti-Israeli Hezbollah forces in Lebanon."
I ask that Editorial Board of the New York Times never again engage in this type of deception.
I couldn't find any major mention of Israel initially. So, I copied over the entire editorial to a Word file and used the "Find" function and the word "Israel." The "Find" function returned only one result: "anti-Israeli Hezbollah forces in Lebanon."
I ask that Editorial Board of the New York Times never again engage in this type of deception.
10
Just in case facts still matter:
15 of the 19 terrorists who murdered over three thousand innocent Americans in the savage destruction of the World Trade Center on 9/11 were Saudis. None were Shiite. None were Iranians.
The Senate report on this heinous crime, some of the most damning pages against Saudi Arabia still redacted, said Saudi citizens gave support to these "students" of horrendous terror.
15 of the 19 terrorists who murdered over three thousand innocent Americans in the savage destruction of the World Trade Center on 9/11 were Saudis. None were Shiite. None were Iranians.
The Senate report on this heinous crime, some of the most damning pages against Saudi Arabia still redacted, said Saudi citizens gave support to these "students" of horrendous terror.
11
The state religion of Saudi Arabia, Wahhabism, is the wellspring from which terrorism flows. The US and the rest of the Western world spend billions of dollars and thousands of lives to whack the moles that they create.
9
fighting terrorism... a joe miller joke... just who are the terrorists ... the US just launched 50 missels into syria... now I have never seen a missel strike but when I was a soldier, I knew that a 155 mm artillery shell killed everything in a 50 yard radius ... and somehow I imagine A missel is even larger.... how many were killed ( ah but they are 'terrorists ) How many schools (here in the US) could be built ... ?????
2
Seeing Trump swaying and grinning while he sucked up to the Saudi hosts in their festive sword dance made me want to retch. Let's not forget these are the same fine folks who butcher and kill wantonly, deny women rights, harbored and nurtured 911 beasts and crippled us with their oil embargos of the 1970's. Trump has no articulated Middle East policy and minimal understanding of the powerful role of history that dictates and drives the relations between countries. The country who throws the biggest bucks at Don the Con will curry his favor, simple as that... disgusting but expectable.
7
The Saudi's see Trump for what he is. They played to his need to be accepted by rich and powerful people. The Saudi so called royalty is the best he can do. He swallowed it hook line and sinker.
True they are the worst ally we have, if ally they are. True they aid and abet terrorism through their Wahabi based "outreach". But also true, President Obama would not turn on them any more than Trump. The best he could do was to try to balance our foreign policy by dealing with Iran. (And such a complexity is well beyond the feeble brain of D Trump).
But in the end does it matter? ISIS is a non-existential threat. In fact, it keeps us and our allies on our toes, and, in doing so, helps us.
The Middle East is not a solvable problem - at least any time soon. Nor is it a strategic issue for us. Only Israel. And they seem to like the status quo. Even the oil is not that important for the US.
If Trump makes it a bigger mess, it will only be a marginal degradation of the situation. Probably a good place in the world for him to spend his time.
True they are the worst ally we have, if ally they are. True they aid and abet terrorism through their Wahabi based "outreach". But also true, President Obama would not turn on them any more than Trump. The best he could do was to try to balance our foreign policy by dealing with Iran. (And such a complexity is well beyond the feeble brain of D Trump).
But in the end does it matter? ISIS is a non-existential threat. In fact, it keeps us and our allies on our toes, and, in doing so, helps us.
The Middle East is not a solvable problem - at least any time soon. Nor is it a strategic issue for us. Only Israel. And they seem to like the status quo. Even the oil is not that important for the US.
If Trump makes it a bigger mess, it will only be a marginal degradation of the situation. Probably a good place in the world for him to spend his time.
3
The cultures of the Middle East have a strong "honor" code, which means not only that the women in a family cannot even incur suspicion of violating their society's sexual norms but that any slight or damage to the family, everything from a verbal insult to murder, must be avenged.
It is a recipe for endless conflict. Everyone is trying to get the last lick in.
A Western country that intervenes in this simmering pot of ongoing feuds is going to become the object of retaliation, especially a Western country that destabilizes the whole region by, oh, let's say invading and occupying one of the biggest oil producers, an artificial state that was already being held together only through a repressive government.
On a global basis, Americans are some of the most ignorant Westerners when it comes to geography, history, cultural anthropology, comparative religions, foreign languages, and every other field of study that comes in handy when operating internationally. Yet they are the most likely either to intervene in the mistaken belief that can and should impose their will on a very different culture or to believe that controlling other countries' natural resources is worth every sacrifice.
This is not to excuse terrorism. But the revenge culture is a fact of life, and we ignore it at our peril.
It is a recipe for endless conflict. Everyone is trying to get the last lick in.
A Western country that intervenes in this simmering pot of ongoing feuds is going to become the object of retaliation, especially a Western country that destabilizes the whole region by, oh, let's say invading and occupying one of the biggest oil producers, an artificial state that was already being held together only through a repressive government.
On a global basis, Americans are some of the most ignorant Westerners when it comes to geography, history, cultural anthropology, comparative religions, foreign languages, and every other field of study that comes in handy when operating internationally. Yet they are the most likely either to intervene in the mistaken belief that can and should impose their will on a very different culture or to believe that controlling other countries' natural resources is worth every sacrifice.
This is not to excuse terrorism. But the revenge culture is a fact of life, and we ignore it at our peril.
7
Sounds like Trump : any threat or insult to himself or his family must be avenged.
1
This business is way too complicated for Mr. Trump and his army of followers. Besides, whoever is last person or group to pay our little boy president a compliment immediately becomes their new best friend. Worse yet, he immediately adopts their friends as well as their enemies with no questions asked.
3
I agree with all points made in this editorial with one exception. That exception is Iran. There is a glaring omission of context. In your own words: "Exaggerating or misrepresenting the misdeeds of Qatar and Iran, while giving the Saudis a free pass, will only benefit Saudi Arabia’s efforts to expand its regional influence." This comes after aligning Iran with Russia, Basher al-Assad, anti-Israeli Hezbollah forces in Lebanon. I don't quibble with Iran's gruesome and bloody pursuit for supremacy in Central Asia. There's blame enough to go around among the Shia and Sunni actors in this region. Sometimes there's a reason why they're bad actors. In the case of Iran it was provoked by the undermining of the Independence of the people (Deposing prime minister Mohammad Mosaddegh, then British intelligence and the CIA, installing the Shah) of Iran to control their own resources: oil.
Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, with the help of British intelligence, the CIA and the Israeli government, the Shah's secret police, Savak was constituted to maintain the Shah's power to protect the interest of the United States government and Western allies in the exploitation and subjugation of the Iranian people.
The brutal history of Savak is well documented. An estimated 8000 dissident were killed. Methods of torture were: tying weights on testicles, extraction of teeth and nails, pouring boiling water and putting broken glass in the rectum.
Cause, effect and context was sorely missing here.
Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, with the help of British intelligence, the CIA and the Israeli government, the Shah's secret police, Savak was constituted to maintain the Shah's power to protect the interest of the United States government and Western allies in the exploitation and subjugation of the Iranian people.
The brutal history of Savak is well documented. An estimated 8000 dissident were killed. Methods of torture were: tying weights on testicles, extraction of teeth and nails, pouring boiling water and putting broken glass in the rectum.
Cause, effect and context was sorely missing here.
3
The US Nero is rushing along, trashing about leaving sober diplomacy in the trail of trash.
2
Saudi money is supporting the construction of mosques and madrassas all over the world. Many of the current jihadists were educated in Saudi-financed madrassas that teach Wahhabism, a virulent, radicalizing view of Islam rooted in Saudi Arabia. Trump is a fool to side with them.
5
"The Brotherhood (Muslim) has officially forsworn violence".
And Santa Claus has arrived at the U.N. for "Reindeer Talks".
Just how gullible is the NYT and, in that same vein, how gullible do you think your readers are?
One of the mandates of this 'peaceful' bunch is,
"Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of god is our highest hope".
Yet, by your standards, this is the 'pacific' group amongst a larger group of killers, thugs and extremists that foment the wars of the Middle East.
As for Qatar and Saudi Arabia, well, they're buying billions in weaponry from the country that will supply armaments anytime, anyplace, anywhere as long as you have the cash; the good, old United States.
The Sunnis and the Shia have been at each other for centuries and no infidel is going to dictate how they resolve that conflict.
But, while they're fighting, arms manufacturers see nothing but a huge, cash cow to be milked, a cow, by the way, that always needs more bombs, more ammo and more airplanes/ships.
Money talks, the stuff you're writing about in this column, well, it just ambles along its merry way.
And Santa Claus has arrived at the U.N. for "Reindeer Talks".
Just how gullible is the NYT and, in that same vein, how gullible do you think your readers are?
One of the mandates of this 'peaceful' bunch is,
"Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of god is our highest hope".
Yet, by your standards, this is the 'pacific' group amongst a larger group of killers, thugs and extremists that foment the wars of the Middle East.
As for Qatar and Saudi Arabia, well, they're buying billions in weaponry from the country that will supply armaments anytime, anyplace, anywhere as long as you have the cash; the good, old United States.
The Sunnis and the Shia have been at each other for centuries and no infidel is going to dictate how they resolve that conflict.
But, while they're fighting, arms manufacturers see nothing but a huge, cash cow to be milked, a cow, by the way, that always needs more bombs, more ammo and more airplanes/ships.
Money talks, the stuff you're writing about in this column, well, it just ambles along its merry way.
1
I guess the New York Times tries to defend any fellow news source, but the choice of words for Al Jazeera ("freewheeling") is simply bizarre.
Al Jazeera is not even slightly "freewheeling", they consistently follow a very simple agenda and script. They never, ever disparage their host and sponsor, Qatar, and, under the guise of free speech, they consistent;y lionize Sunni terrorist groups while disparaging Israel and the West.
Al Jazeera is not even slightly "freewheeling", they consistently follow a very simple agenda and script. They never, ever disparage their host and sponsor, Qatar, and, under the guise of free speech, they consistent;y lionize Sunni terrorist groups while disparaging Israel and the West.
You make Al Jazeera sound like Fox and Breitbart ! It is not.
Brains,intellect,culture, different views. Worth watching.
The US can be very insular.
Brains,intellect,culture, different views. Worth watching.
The US can be very insular.
2
Trump likes the idea of a "big, beautiful wall", and so do I. Mine, however, would be built around the Middle East. If there is one area in the entire world that could lay a claim to being the vortex of hell, it is that region.
Why?
Gee, perhaps it is because it contains sites that are considered the holiest places in the world for all three monotheistic religions, whose adherents worship the same God by different names but who have ceaselessly slaughtered each other either to impose their own way of doing things on the others, or to seize land to which they have no right.
Why?
Gee, perhaps it is because it contains sites that are considered the holiest places in the world for all three monotheistic religions, whose adherents worship the same God by different names but who have ceaselessly slaughtered each other either to impose their own way of doing things on the others, or to seize land to which they have no right.
3
If it were not for petroleum there would be no interest in that hideous region, its extremist bloodbath, its Sharia insanity.
Do people not get that you can be subject to stoning in UAE for kissing in public? You can be beheaded in Saudi Arabia for being gay?
Not single state of this kind should an ally, they should be walled off, boycotted & excommunicated.
Boycott petroleum.
Do people not get that you can be subject to stoning in UAE for kissing in public? You can be beheaded in Saudi Arabia for being gay?
Not single state of this kind should an ally, they should be walled off, boycotted & excommunicated.
Boycott petroleum.
4
Media is as usual misleading people .Deflecting public attention into wrong alleys .Whats the issue at stake here ? Terrorism or commerce ?
All the drama the commercial corporations stage on the global stage have just one single over riding theme. VIZ, Trade and Commerce.
Trading cannot be done without compromises , give and take . Human ego. honor , honesty, loyalty,sincerity and such other social or human values have no place in T & C . Profit, is the only currency it knows or need to know . The touch of Midas.
To any one who thinks straight there is no confusion.On the other hand,situation in the middle east and elsewhere in the world is crystal clear. The greedier the profit-maximization the better the operation.The rest are all incidentals and collateral damages including human lives ..
You , all consuming commercial corporations , you are on the mark .America (= American corporations and their ilk around the globe) is doing great ! Keep it up and bash on regardless .The world is your Oyster . Feast fearlessly . Damn human lives or human values .
All the drama the commercial corporations stage on the global stage have just one single over riding theme. VIZ, Trade and Commerce.
Trading cannot be done without compromises , give and take . Human ego. honor , honesty, loyalty,sincerity and such other social or human values have no place in T & C . Profit, is the only currency it knows or need to know . The touch of Midas.
To any one who thinks straight there is no confusion.On the other hand,situation in the middle east and elsewhere in the world is crystal clear. The greedier the profit-maximization the better the operation.The rest are all incidentals and collateral damages including human lives ..
You , all consuming commercial corporations , you are on the mark .America (= American corporations and their ilk around the globe) is doing great ! Keep it up and bash on regardless .The world is your Oyster . Feast fearlessly . Damn human lives or human values .
Waltzing around the foundational source of modern terror: Wahhabism, Salafism that are the legitimizing the religious beliefs of ISIS and Al Qaeda is irritating. Saudi Arabia and other gulf monarchies depend on the support of Wahhabism in their homelands. These monarchies fund Wahhabi missionaries around the world. These nations lie to the world and claim that they have ended support of Al Qaeda when their "princes" send money to Wahhabi fanatics. The west sits on it's hands pretending that Wahhabis are not preaching jihad and support for Al Qaeda and ISIS within their countries. Why are Wahhabi mosques and imams permitted to preach terror? Freedom of religion? The Aghori cannibals have no right to eat human flesh in America. Wahhabis have no right to preach violence and terror. The NY Times and all responsible news outlets must end the silence. Our government must end the silence. All Muslims must end the silence because the Wahhabi cult does not represent Islam. Muslims can demand that the west refrain from protecting Saudi Wahhabis and Salafism and slandering Islam.
55
We support the Saudis. The Saudis support extremist religious schools. Extremist religious schools support international terror.
Then we use international terror as an excuse to fight wars for oil, make and sell half the world weapons, militarized the police, create history's most pervasive subsidence systems, and make excerpts to the Bill of Rights and the Magna Carta.
Despite the propaganda from global corporate mass media, it should be obvious to everyone this is no accident.
Then we use international terror as an excuse to fight wars for oil, make and sell half the world weapons, militarized the police, create history's most pervasive subsidence systems, and make excerpts to the Bill of Rights and the Magna Carta.
Despite the propaganda from global corporate mass media, it should be obvious to everyone this is no accident.
3
Zionist Jewish Israeli extremist terror is funded by Evangelical Christian American extremist terror.
America invaded and occupied Iraq based upon lies about Iraqi WMD's and an Iraqi connection to 9/11/01.
The gift of Americans arms funds the Israeli occupation, blockade/siege, exile and second class citizenship of 6 million Christian Muslim Arab Palestinian Israelis.
The Saudis pay for their American arms.
The Saudis and the Israelis want American blood and treasure wasted on an Iran which has not attacked nor threatened to attack the American homeland.
America invaded and occupied Iraq based upon lies about Iraqi WMD's and an Iraqi connection to 9/11/01.
The gift of Americans arms funds the Israeli occupation, blockade/siege, exile and second class citizenship of 6 million Christian Muslim Arab Palestinian Israelis.
The Saudis pay for their American arms.
The Saudis and the Israelis want American blood and treasure wasted on an Iran which has not attacked nor threatened to attack the American homeland.
4
Joseph as both a Muslim and scholar of the region let me say that your letter hit the nail on the head. Wahhabism was considered even during the Ottoman period in the 19th century a particularly fanatical and hateful fringe sect from the most backward area of the Arabian desert. The Al-Saud family in conjunction with the Wahhabi ulema and British imperialism came to power by 1932. They have maintained an unholy alliance with the US ever since. US Central Command keeps them in power in order to siphon off the natural resource wealth of the region through massively corrupt arms deals worth hundreds of billions that are not spent on education and economic development. The Saudis sanitize their complicity with the massive funding of Wahhabi ignorance and savagery through out the Muslim world giving birth to groups like ISIS. Meanwhile they also work with American Neo-Cons and Armageddon Evangelical fanatics to target non-violent and pro-democratic Muslim leaders like President Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. Both American and Muslim civilians are victims and dupes in this duplicitous dance which Trump recently evoked in Riyadh.
3
This is an astonishingly dimwitted assessment.
So Iran was designated a "state sponsor of terrorism" back in 1984? Is there any sentient being that believes that a comprehensive list of state sponsors of terrorism is Iran, Syria and Sudan? Really. Even with the mealy mouthed, suspect claim that Saudi Arabia is "improving," somehow it never made the list, despite being the birthplace og Al Qaeda, the founder being a relative of Saudi royalty, and 15/19 9/11 hijackers being Saudi? Has the Saudi government toned down its worldwide network of madrassas, spreading hatred of all things Israeli and American, not to mention Shiite? But this is how the Times chooses to characterize it? "Experts say some Saudi school texts seem to make a virtue of hating others." Sort of like saying that "Sunnis and Shia don't get along all that well." Well, duh.
Qatar is just a convenient, diversionary target of Saudi scapegoatism.
Our middle east policy is a dunderheaded nightmare, has been for decades, and promises no improvement. There, fixed it for you.
So Iran was designated a "state sponsor of terrorism" back in 1984? Is there any sentient being that believes that a comprehensive list of state sponsors of terrorism is Iran, Syria and Sudan? Really. Even with the mealy mouthed, suspect claim that Saudi Arabia is "improving," somehow it never made the list, despite being the birthplace og Al Qaeda, the founder being a relative of Saudi royalty, and 15/19 9/11 hijackers being Saudi? Has the Saudi government toned down its worldwide network of madrassas, spreading hatred of all things Israeli and American, not to mention Shiite? But this is how the Times chooses to characterize it? "Experts say some Saudi school texts seem to make a virtue of hating others." Sort of like saying that "Sunnis and Shia don't get along all that well." Well, duh.
Qatar is just a convenient, diversionary target of Saudi scapegoatism.
Our middle east policy is a dunderheaded nightmare, has been for decades, and promises no improvement. There, fixed it for you.
53
In 1953 America at the behest of British Petroleum and the United Kingdom engineered a coup against a democratically elected Iranian government.
Since the end of World War II, Israel has been the #1 recipient of the gift of American arms. The Saudis pay for their American arms.
Israel is America's morally politically militarily most worthless 'ally'. The Saudis are a close second followed by Egypt. All three want American blood and treasure wasted on Iran. I prefer they expend their own alone.
Iran has not attacked nor threatened to attack the American homeland.
Since the end of World War II, Israel has been the #1 recipient of the gift of American arms. The Saudis pay for their American arms.
Israel is America's morally politically militarily most worthless 'ally'. The Saudis are a close second followed by Egypt. All three want American blood and treasure wasted on Iran. I prefer they expend their own alone.
Iran has not attacked nor threatened to attack the American homeland.
2
The Middle East is complex. For too long, many simplified its issues, arguing that if Israel made peace with the Palestinians, everyone in the region would live happily ever after. Unfortunately, there are many complex issues in that area. Policymakers have missed them or their nuances. For example, democracy won't just pop up when dictators like Saddam Hussein are toppled. The "Arab Spring" had a few very hopeful democratically minded individuals who tried to remove strong, dictator-type leaders only to be overwhelmed by repressive forces like the new "non violent" Muslim Brotherhood or new or newly emboldened dictator types like Sisi or, much worse, Assad. Also, different religious fundamentalists seek to impose what they believe is the Word and Law of God on everyone else. Some of these folks have governments promoting their ideas in order or in coalition with them to protect the government. Not mentioned in this piece is the alleged root of problems in that area, Israel vs Palestinians. Simplifying that into oppressed and oppressor causing all area problems ignores reality there and elsewhere. Ignored are the UN paid-for refugee camps in which generations of refugees wait for Israel to be destroyed, the Palestinians praising terror attacks, encouraging children to be martyrs, not doctors, lawyers, or builders of businesses, payment for families of martyrs, etc.. Unfortunately, simplified policies and issues are not unique to this area, but are dangerous wherever.
Dear Editorial Board,
Your editorial makes good points to the naïve and uncritical readers but, to the rest of the world, you have somehow forgotten to mention the elephant in the room, which you should know, and that is the US is run by the military industrial complex. Conflicts are good for American defense industry. All countries involved in your editorial with the exception of Iran are big spenders on American-made weapons. Say what we will about Trump, he finally speaks the truth that the US is all about transactional business.
Your editorial makes good points to the naïve and uncritical readers but, to the rest of the world, you have somehow forgotten to mention the elephant in the room, which you should know, and that is the US is run by the military industrial complex. Conflicts are good for American defense industry. All countries involved in your editorial with the exception of Iran are big spenders on American-made weapons. Say what we will about Trump, he finally speaks the truth that the US is all about transactional business.
18
Our do-nothing US Congress should share a large part of the blame. They are supposed to have one-third of the power to govern, yet they do nothing but approve another war here, another war there, and send more "boots on the ground" - American young people to die in a foreign land once again. Place the blame where it belongs........
1
Don the Con had a plan that would defeat ISIS quickly, he said so often during the campaign. Not one to unilaterally impose his genius, he gave "The Generals" 90 days to come up with their plan. He would then compare the two and implement the best plan that would defeat ISIS quickly. We're a little bit beyond the time limit set by Don the Con and still no hint of anything regarding ISIS.
The Editorial Board applies historical perspective, economic motivations, religious differences and admits to the complexity of the threat of ISIS and how to eliminate it.
Maybe the next tweet from Don the Con will be "nobody knew how complicated removing ISIS would be."
The Editorial Board applies historical perspective, economic motivations, religious differences and admits to the complexity of the threat of ISIS and how to eliminate it.
Maybe the next tweet from Don the Con will be "nobody knew how complicated removing ISIS would be."
9
If you need to find a seminal moment in mid eastern history, look hard at the CIA's interference in Iranian democratic experience that landed the Shah in power in the early 50's. When we throw our weight around wrecklessly we make enemies with long memories and give away any legitimacy as an independent arbiter.
29
Maybe it would help the world if US interests were not defined as the interests of the defense industry. It is beyond disgusting to use our taxpayer funded government as lobbyists and sales people selling deadly fighter jets and weapons to whoever will fork over the price. Is this not what President Eisenhower warned against, seeing the WWII machine convert itself into a money making tool that now pretty well owns lots of our governing officials, including that orange fool who would not know Qatar from Quaker unless one of the minions pointed to the entity with money.
14
Getting Trump to understand the nuances and complications of the Middle East is a lost cause. He'll support anyone who gives him a golden necklace and plasters his image on posters all over a city. He will oppose those who don't, even if they provide us with a forward military base for strikes on ISIS. And he will oppose a perfectly reasonable nuclear deal with Iran simply because a hardline Israeli leader wants him to. How to lose friends and international influence by Trump the Chump.
Wait a minute. Such nuanced analysis as contained in this article goes right over the head of Trump and his supporters. Their response: dig in even deeper using their Manichean rhetoric. Contradiction, hypocrisy, illogic have no place in their thinking.
7
The principal takeaway from a 1970 college course on the Middle East was the tremendous complexity of this ancient region. From the 1973 oil embargo forward, the answer to the question, "why are we in the Middle East?", while not devoid of nuance, mostly boiled down to one word: oil.
I am not at all saying the US ought no longer be "in" the Middle East. However, I think a reassessment of the US approach and purpose is warranted. I do not think oil is the answer anymore, or at least much less so, due to North American oil production. Maybe the "easy" post-1973 answer was too facile, I do not know.
I am not at all saying the US ought no longer be "in" the Middle East. However, I think a reassessment of the US approach and purpose is warranted. I do not think oil is the answer anymore, or at least much less so, due to North American oil production. Maybe the "easy" post-1973 answer was too facile, I do not know.
1
This article is yet another reminder of what an absolute toxic 'can of worms' the Middle East is. Ideally all western nations (and any other sensible country) would be best advised to stay well clear of the region. Involvement in this region will bring nothing but death and misery to anyone who tries to meddle.
The underlying causes of this maelstrom can of course be laid at the door of nationalism and religion, two of the most potent scourges of humanity.
The underlying causes of this maelstrom can of course be laid at the door of nationalism and religion, two of the most potent scourges of humanity.
3
From what I am reading, not just here but in other columns, the Saudis had Trump figured out way before he got there. They knew how to flatter him and they understood his incredible ignorance of all things diplomatic and of America's relationship with Qatar. So Trump went over there with the great delusion of solving the Middle East's problems, and the Saudis lead him to believe he could, so he agreed to what they wanted, i.e., to shun Qatar.
4
The Arab countries have to smarten-up. They need to realize that they are being played like a violin by a team of US/Israeli strategists. They need to understand that the worst nightmare of both the US and Israel would be a firmly united Arab alliance using lawful means and garnering world support to end US and Israeli colonialism and exploitation.
In short, the Arab League needs to stand up for the interests of all ME peoples, not just the interests of the ME wealthy that in the pockets of the West.
In short, the Arab League needs to stand up for the interests of all ME peoples, not just the interests of the ME wealthy that in the pockets of the West.
6
They are still in tribal mode. It will be hundreds of years before they will be willing or capable of fortifying their region of the world as a unified force - and they know it. Thus we have "terrorism", or whatever you want to call it.
I guess optimism springs eternal.
Your final paragraph, suggesting Iran, Saudi and Qatar have a role to play in ending terrorism is likely the most naive thought in today's newspaper.
Funding terrorism outside their borders have kept each of them safe.
No one, for instance, is bombing Iran or shooting their planes out of the sky today. People are fighting their proxies in Israel, Syria, and Yemen. This economic and political basket case is creating trouble for others rather well.
No one is attempting a coup inside Saudi Arabia. Their clerics and money are spreading havoc in the entire world rather well. As they have for 40 years. No problem. Could we possibly supplicate ourselves more to them?
And Qatar? Who cares. They will fall in line because they cannot survive given their location by ticking people off.
But assuming we are going to get anything in the way of help in defeating Islamic terror, from those who are fueling it, benefiting from it, staying safe as a result of it - is a terribly naive thought.
If wishes were unicorns, I would be skinny and tall. Thank you for the flight of fancy.
Kalidan
Your final paragraph, suggesting Iran, Saudi and Qatar have a role to play in ending terrorism is likely the most naive thought in today's newspaper.
Funding terrorism outside their borders have kept each of them safe.
No one, for instance, is bombing Iran or shooting their planes out of the sky today. People are fighting their proxies in Israel, Syria, and Yemen. This economic and political basket case is creating trouble for others rather well.
No one is attempting a coup inside Saudi Arabia. Their clerics and money are spreading havoc in the entire world rather well. As they have for 40 years. No problem. Could we possibly supplicate ourselves more to them?
And Qatar? Who cares. They will fall in line because they cannot survive given their location by ticking people off.
But assuming we are going to get anything in the way of help in defeating Islamic terror, from those who are fueling it, benefiting from it, staying safe as a result of it - is a terribly naive thought.
If wishes were unicorns, I would be skinny and tall. Thank you for the flight of fancy.
Kalidan
3
And there is no end to the hypocrisy coming out of the West and the US in particular. The US has been responsible for more deaths in the Middle East than any other country - and all in the name of national security.
When are Americans going to realise that their strategies and foreign policy adventures are the problem, not the solution? These kinds of editorial are no more than expressions of ignorance and a failure of self-examination.
When are Americans going to realise that their strategies and foreign policy adventures are the problem, not the solution? These kinds of editorial are no more than expressions of ignorance and a failure of self-examination.
6
How could you miss the tragedy in Yemen, whose people are being killed, starved and displaced by the tens of thousands in a proxy war between Iran and a Saudi-led coalition and where Trump, the British, the French and Iran are stoking the flames by providing the weapons that kill without even seriously trying to end the tragedy? Yemen is not a "confusing" imbroglio, it's a bloodbath that shames those powers who could help bring it to an end.
5
And into this mix, we now add a loose canon President only visibly interested in tweets, photo ops, and hotel and resort deals. He's clearly not interested in fulfilling his role as Commander-in-Chief, allowing his unelected generals to set troop levels and military policy without a strategy worthy of the light of day. And we are reduced to taking comfort from the fact that, since he's clearly incompetent to fulfill that role as Commander-in-Chief, civilian rule under this civilian is likely not the good thing it's supposed to be.
3
In the 80s, President Reagan was the first president to experience, first hand, a brutal lesson about Middle East politics. During the Lebanese civil war, 250 marines of an expeditionary force were killed by massive truck bombs in Beirut.
Reagan, immediately, withdrew the Marines from harm ways. Americans learned there is no such thing as bad guys and good guys in the Middle East. Only hombres malos.
The current schism between Saudi Arabia/Gulf allies and Qatar is a good example of US interference making a bad situation worst.
President Trump decided to take the side of Saudi Arabia. Coincidentally, Qatar is the only Gulf State that Trump's corporation trademark could not make a lucrative real estate deal.
Reagan, immediately, withdrew the Marines from harm ways. Americans learned there is no such thing as bad guys and good guys in the Middle East. Only hombres malos.
The current schism between Saudi Arabia/Gulf allies and Qatar is a good example of US interference making a bad situation worst.
President Trump decided to take the side of Saudi Arabia. Coincidentally, Qatar is the only Gulf State that Trump's corporation trademark could not make a lucrative real estate deal.
2
It is very unclear to me how much of US policy is based on past stereotypical thinking. It seems like there's a fair amount of the Hatfields and McCoys going on, where we support some and rail against others based on a historical, but forgotten, feud, with not enough thought for current reality. At any rate, if Qatar is talking to everyone, and providing us with a place for US military bases, I'm inclined to think it is too valuable to us to abandon. And don't forget, Saudi Arabia beheads people too, and reduces women to chattel status. No wonder Trump likes them.
2
All Western nations need to get out of the Middle East and leave them alone to chop each other's heads off for the next 500 years or however long it takes them to realize that it's a stupid idea. Forget oil. Spending whatever it takes to implement alternative fuels will save us far more than the current cost of constant military intervention.
4
Trump sells weapons to the Saudis, the people responsible
For 9/11, then turns around and bans travelers
from people desperate to escape war and terror, from
countries where no one has committed an act of terrorism.
Talk about hypocrisy: trump could care less
about " protecting the American people"
He sides with dictators and the Saudis,
a place where journalists are arrested and flogged,
and people beheaded. Maybe that's what he wants for the US.
For 9/11, then turns around and bans travelers
from people desperate to escape war and terror, from
countries where no one has committed an act of terrorism.
Talk about hypocrisy: trump could care less
about " protecting the American people"
He sides with dictators and the Saudis,
a place where journalists are arrested and flogged,
and people beheaded. Maybe that's what he wants for the US.
Saudi Arabia and most of the gulf states are the true sponsor of terrorism. ISIS is funded, supported and defended by these corrupt Arab rulers.
1
Thank you for the Cliff's notes definition of quagmire.
In this incredibly complicated political maelstrom, all committed Muslim countries like Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Iran have one underlying, common belief: Islam's ultimate goal is to become the politico-religious ideology that will defeat the West and all other ideologies and dominate the world--notwithstanding the fact that Islam uses and will use the weapons created by the infidel West, and Russia...
The only thing that could stop this 'takeover' is the abiding hate between the Sunnis and the Shiites..."a kingdom divided among itself shall not stand"...anyone remember who said this first (try the Gospels)?
The only thing that could stop this 'takeover' is the abiding hate between the Sunnis and the Shiites..."a kingdom divided among itself shall not stand"...anyone remember who said this first (try the Gospels)?
It's actually not even close. Saudi Arabia, with our 70 year old (taking over from the British) Faustian deal with the devil to gain access to cheap oil and to sell billions in weapons, spreads not an ultra conservative version Islam, but a toxic, poisonous, anti-historical version of Islam that is destroying moderate Islam (the dominant form for most of Islam's history - just compare the treatment of religious minorities in the Islamic world vs the Western world from the 7th century until the 19th century) and any desperately needed modernizing forces in Islam. Bin Laden and AQ (both got their start with Saudi and US funding of the covert war against the Soviets in Aghanistan - when Bin Laden and the Mujahideen - that would become the Taliban and the foreign fighters AQ - were the good guys), 15 of 19 of the 9/11 terrorist (the worst terrorists in history), the ideological foundation for AQ and ISIS are all from Saudi Arabia. Unless you consider Hezbollah and Hamas (regional terrorist threat) the same as the GLOBAL terrorist threat from AQ and ISIS, then Iran is not close to being the largest sponsor of GLOBAL terrorism - no matter how many times we say it. Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas are all problems, adversaries, enemies but they simply are not the GLOBAL, nihilistic, evil that is AQ and ISIS. And as long as the Saudis keep spreading their Wahhabi cancer, they are complicit in providing the ideological foundation for AQ and ISIS.
Yes, Iran funds militias that are responsible for horrific human rights abuses. But it does not preach a global jihad, and has no connections to Sunni extremists, who blow themselves up in concert halls and tube stations. In short, from a Western and, particularly, European perspective, Saudi funding of global Islamism - which prepares the ground for jihadism - is the greater threat than Iran's support for odious groups in Iraq and elsewhere.
4
This defines "a can of worms." The worldwide spread of terrorism speaks for itself. The last three Presidents haven't had and solutions and the situation has received a punch in the gut from our newest President. Apparently all we can do is complain. There aren't any apparent political solutions.
1
Both Isis and Saudi call for the death penalty for those convicted of blasphemy, adultery and homosexuality. Hand amputations and public lashings are also prescribed for lesser offences in both countries. Independent)
In order to avoid admitting to cheating on his wife, Trump invoked the 5th 97 times during his divorce with Ivana Trump in 1990. No surprise Trump had kind words for a system that allows men to divorce their wives without going to court: Saudi Arabia’s Shariah law:
Trump praised Shariah during a daily radio commentary called “Trumped!”. In a 2008 segment, Trump discussed a Saudi man who divorced his wife for watching a television show alone because the husband considered it tantamount to being alone with a strange man.
“Men in Saudi Arabia have the authority to divorce their wives without going to the courts,” Trump said. “I guess that would also mean they don’t need prenuptial agreements. The fact is, no courts, no judges—Saudi Arabia sounds like a very good place to get a divorce.”
(Independent & Mother Jones)
In order to avoid admitting to cheating on his wife, Trump invoked the 5th 97 times during his divorce with Ivana Trump in 1990. No surprise Trump had kind words for a system that allows men to divorce their wives without going to court: Saudi Arabia’s Shariah law:
Trump praised Shariah during a daily radio commentary called “Trumped!”. In a 2008 segment, Trump discussed a Saudi man who divorced his wife for watching a television show alone because the husband considered it tantamount to being alone with a strange man.
“Men in Saudi Arabia have the authority to divorce their wives without going to the courts,” Trump said. “I guess that would also mean they don’t need prenuptial agreements. The fact is, no courts, no judges—Saudi Arabia sounds like a very good place to get a divorce.”
(Independent & Mother Jones)
3
I might have misread this, but it appears you have correctly stated that Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Iran all support (or have supported) terrorist activities. So, before we all get together around the campfire and sing Kumbaya, what do you propose? We forgive all nations for what they are currently doing as long as they drop a bomb or two on an ISIS stronghold? Here is just a thought. Why don't we 'invade' the ISIS areas and kill as many of them as we can and then simply pull out and let Syria and Iraq mop up the rest (or not). We have the most powerful military in the history of the world. We lost less than 4K men and women defeating the Middle East's most vaunted military (Iraq) and part of the reason for that 'large' number is we tried to hold the ground. We could roll over ISIS held territory in a couple of weeks with minimal loss of life and then, simply leave. Nearly every nation in the Middle East supports some kind of terrorism. Let them. If they attack us again on our home turf, then we respond. Otherwise, let them all fight over who should have succeeded Muhammad.
2
The United States ought to stop sending weapons into the region.
More weapons, more war, more misery, more will to revenge, . . .
More weapons, more war, more misery, more will to revenge, . . .
Clarity and honestly are in very short supply in the Middle East. Trump is making an already bad situation even worse, and the testosterone-infected who inhabit Washington are egging him on. When does the endless war actually end?
The commissions are the clue. Who can PAY????
What should Iran do? Shiites who represent less than 38% of the population in the Middle East. They live in the middle of Sunnis who have been taught by Saudi Arabia to hate them.
Saudi Arabia is taking advantage of a corrupt U.S administration to advance its goal. I will almost call it a "Pay per Play" game. The Saud have understood that the only thing that matters to the western elite is MONEY, and the Saud have plenty of it.
The Raison d'etre of any Saud is to retain power and spread their Wahhabism ideology. The Saud sincerely believe that to be a "Divine Mission" that was given to them by Allah. ( Apparently, Allah made sure they had plenty of money to accomplish their mission). Even the New York Times seems not to see how dangerous Saudi Arabia is. As long as Saudi Arabia will spread Wahhabism around the world, there will be TERRORISM.
From Africa, Europe, Asia, to America, all terrorists have something in common: Saudi Arabia, our ally in the fight against terror.
Not surprising that since 9/11, the War on Terror has been an enormous waste of money and loss of our civil liberties with no results to show for.
Saudi Arabia is taking advantage of a corrupt U.S administration to advance its goal. I will almost call it a "Pay per Play" game. The Saud have understood that the only thing that matters to the western elite is MONEY, and the Saud have plenty of it.
The Raison d'etre of any Saud is to retain power and spread their Wahhabism ideology. The Saud sincerely believe that to be a "Divine Mission" that was given to them by Allah. ( Apparently, Allah made sure they had plenty of money to accomplish their mission). Even the New York Times seems not to see how dangerous Saudi Arabia is. As long as Saudi Arabia will spread Wahhabism around the world, there will be TERRORISM.
From Africa, Europe, Asia, to America, all terrorists have something in common: Saudi Arabia, our ally in the fight against terror.
Not surprising that since 9/11, the War on Terror has been an enormous waste of money and loss of our civil liberties with no results to show for.
2
Replace:
"Saud" with "Iranian Ayatollah"
"Saudi Arabia" with "Islamic Republic of Iran"
"Wahhabism" with "Shi'ite"
and the message is the same.
"Saud" with "Iranian Ayatollah"
"Saudi Arabia" with "Islamic Republic of Iran"
"Wahhabism" with "Shi'ite"
and the message is the same.
1
There will never b clarity when all of the ''superpowers'' are playing out machismo proxy wars in the sand.
Players are supplying military arms at huge profits ( which fund the lobbyists or the leaders of the superpowers themselves ) while the demand for oil is unquenchable. It is a circular firing squad of money that fuels ever more petty squabbles between the Arab nations.
We prop it all up every time we fill our gas tank.
Players are supplying military arms at huge profits ( which fund the lobbyists or the leaders of the superpowers themselves ) while the demand for oil is unquenchable. It is a circular firing squad of money that fuels ever more petty squabbles between the Arab nations.
We prop it all up every time we fill our gas tank.
3
Clarity, honesty – really? American foreign policy is now based on what benefits the Trump family business. The foreigners have already figured this out – Russia and China are tripping over themselves to award Trump trademarks, Duterte is playing up the Manila Trump tower, and others are lining up to name golf courses after him. Only a vigilant press can ensure that America does not end up like Mugabe’s Zimbabwe or Gaddafi’s Libya, if we are not there already.
3
It is interesting that there is no mention of the UAE, which is a major trading partner of Iran's and also has been supporting the Saudis in bombing Yemen to smithereens. To make matters more complicated, a good portion of the Qatari, Bahraini, Kuwaiti and Emirati population have Persian ancestry. Living in Qatar you see the different elements that are at play, but everyone agrees with this sentiment: The Saudis are a nasty piece of work and they are the number one state sponsor of terrorism. Ask the Yemenis.
The calcification of Islamic religious belief in the Middle East is bringing on the end of stability in that geographic area. Exponential population growth rates adds to the problem.
A turning point in human planetary carbon consciousness is occurring as a result of the overheating of the planet. World-wide measures to reduce consumption of fossil fuels have now begun. World economies are turning against carbon based sources of energy. Some of the “oil rich” Middle Eastern countries are close to having exhausted their oil reserves. Others with plentiful reserves will in the future be facing global pressure against the sale of oil.
As the world moves away from oil as a source of energy, both Shiite and Sunni belief will continue to be an impediment toward adjustment in the Middle Eastern countries. This will be most pronounced in the fundamentalist Sunni countries. Fanatically observant Muslims there looking back to Islamic origins will retreat further into the paradisiacal womb of suicidal Islamic paradise. We are already seeing this, and it will intensify. The doctrines of earlier anti-western, anti-secular, revolutionaries such as Hassan al-Banna, Sayyid Qutb and Osama bin Laden will prevail. Newly formed groups such as ISIS will take their place.
Not a pleasant future for the many millions of citizens in that part of the world.
www.InquiryAbraham.com
A turning point in human planetary carbon consciousness is occurring as a result of the overheating of the planet. World-wide measures to reduce consumption of fossil fuels have now begun. World economies are turning against carbon based sources of energy. Some of the “oil rich” Middle Eastern countries are close to having exhausted their oil reserves. Others with plentiful reserves will in the future be facing global pressure against the sale of oil.
As the world moves away from oil as a source of energy, both Shiite and Sunni belief will continue to be an impediment toward adjustment in the Middle Eastern countries. This will be most pronounced in the fundamentalist Sunni countries. Fanatically observant Muslims there looking back to Islamic origins will retreat further into the paradisiacal womb of suicidal Islamic paradise. We are already seeing this, and it will intensify. The doctrines of earlier anti-western, anti-secular, revolutionaries such as Hassan al-Banna, Sayyid Qutb and Osama bin Laden will prevail. Newly formed groups such as ISIS will take their place.
Not a pleasant future for the many millions of citizens in that part of the world.
www.InquiryAbraham.com
2
There will always be those hypocrites who, with no apparent guilt, repeatedly sacrifice publicly-stated principles on the altar of lucre:
Will all great Neptune’s ocean wash this blood
Clean from my hand? No, this my hand will rather
The multitudinous seas incarnadine,
Making the green one red.
Macbeth, Act 2, Scene 2.
Will all great Neptune’s ocean wash this blood
Clean from my hand? No, this my hand will rather
The multitudinous seas incarnadine,
Making the green one red.
Macbeth, Act 2, Scene 2.
P.S. Don't you ever consider that the conflict between Israel and the Arab Palestinians and the problem of terrorists like ISIS. Hezbollah, and Al-Qaeda in the region ----given the oppressive authoritarian official life under government terrorism----is a sideshow to most of the Middle East----that is, not a major priority? The population's religious relationships and the perceptions of hostility between Sunni and Shiite religiously controlled governments trumps local interests in an Israeli-Arab peace.
If you are a Shia living in a ghetto in Saudi Arabia's Oil patch cities like Jubail and Yanbu, an Israeli-Palestinian peace or suppressing a terrorist group in Syria is as much of concern to you as a peace between Columbia's government and its guerrillas to most residents of Brooklyn's Crown Heights or Harlem. Few Shia or Sunnis living side-by-side far from terrorists fighting us care about "fighting or funding extremists" to serve our interests, Europe's or Israel's.
If you are a Shia living in a ghetto in Saudi Arabia's Oil patch cities like Jubail and Yanbu, an Israeli-Palestinian peace or suppressing a terrorist group in Syria is as much of concern to you as a peace between Columbia's government and its guerrillas to most residents of Brooklyn's Crown Heights or Harlem. Few Shia or Sunnis living side-by-side far from terrorists fighting us care about "fighting or funding extremists" to serve our interests, Europe's or Israel's.
Saudi Arabia is the source of the ideology (wahabi cult) and funding for most terrorist activities in the ME since WW2. They are not our allies. They are the enemy. It is time for boycott and sanctions against this extremist country.
Saudi Arabia is a terrorist regime, responsible for millions of innocent deaths, and WE ARE SUPPORTING AND FUNDING THEM. It's disgusting.
If Qatar forces our bases out, its loving neighbors will overrun Qatar in an afternoon. We have Qatar locked up. Saudi still needs work. Your zeal to spin anti-trump message is blinding you.
1
Hypocrisy seems to be in ample supply in the Middle East, but also by the U.S. neglect in trying to stay 'neutral'; and, even worse, by excluding Iran in diplomatic/ political talks, so terrorism can be contained and, hopefully, destroyed. And the indifference, even benign neglect, of Russia, for it's vile support of assassin Bashar al Assad, and luke- warm fight against ISIS. Basically, there is no coordinate effort nor long-term plan to solve things, not even the 50 year-old Israeli-Palestinian impasse/apartheid occupation. Not a nice picture.
1
If ISIS and Al Qaeda followed Saudi Arabia's example, and simply invested in one of Trump's golf courses or bought a bunch of expensive condo's in one of the Trump towers, they'd no longer be considered terrorist organizations... They would magically become freedom fighters... Heck, Donald would even sell them weapons.
1
US foreign policy has always referred to so-called "American interests", without ever defining what is meant by "interests". Now the fog is lifting, and the world can more clearly see that American interests have, as priorities,
1) the interests of the US oil companies
2) the interests of the US weapons/defence companies
3) the interests of AIPAC
........
Peace, human rights, international law are nowhere to be seen.
1) the interests of the US oil companies
2) the interests of the US weapons/defence companies
3) the interests of AIPAC
........
Peace, human rights, international law are nowhere to be seen.
8
It is like after Pearl Harbor, when people feared the Chinese because they didn't understand the difference between Chinese and Japanese. Just like in Christianity and Judaism, hermeneutics and exegesis separate sects of Islam.
Ordinary people think 'Islamist' means 'Islamic', whereas people with a passing knowledge of Islam know that Islamist is essentially a synonym for Wahhabi or Salafist. Wahhabi, Salafist and Islamist are almost synonyms, like Church of England, Anglican and Episcopalian.
The media contributes to Islamophobia when they talk about "Islamist terrorists", because the public hears "Islamic terrorists".
Please, help fight racism by one of the two clear and unequivocal terms Wahhabi or Salafist. (If a media outlet is worried about angering the Saudis by calling terrorists, then call them Salafists.)
By the way, It is an entry requirement of ISIS and al Qada that you be a Wahhabi. Most Sunni groups are far less violent than the Wahhabis. Don't blame all Sunnis for what groups that are 100% Wahhabi do.
Ordinary people think 'Islamist' means 'Islamic', whereas people with a passing knowledge of Islam know that Islamist is essentially a synonym for Wahhabi or Salafist. Wahhabi, Salafist and Islamist are almost synonyms, like Church of England, Anglican and Episcopalian.
The media contributes to Islamophobia when they talk about "Islamist terrorists", because the public hears "Islamic terrorists".
Please, help fight racism by one of the two clear and unequivocal terms Wahhabi or Salafist. (If a media outlet is worried about angering the Saudis by calling terrorists, then call them Salafists.)
By the way, It is an entry requirement of ISIS and al Qada that you be a Wahhabi. Most Sunni groups are far less violent than the Wahhabis. Don't blame all Sunnis for what groups that are 100% Wahhabi do.
1
The article doesn't mentioned land thief Israel with its illegal colonies on the West Bank and Golan Heights,violator of the Geneva convention by settling people on occupied land and UN resolution 242, the unquestioned source of most of the Middle East's problems. That is terrorism, not waging a struggle to win what belongs to you back. Security comes from a just peace, not the other way around.
1
What? Is it possible that Israel is not the cause of the problems in the middle - east?
Blasphemy!
Blasphemy!
Iran is the most dangerous of Middle Eastern states. It has paid for terrorist atrocities since the religionists took control of the nation in 1979. It has defeated the "Great Satan" numerous times, and has shown no reduction in its efforts to attack the US and Israel. Why? Because of its dogma: It must become the head of the global Caliphate that Islam demands. Obama's handing over of hundreds of billions of dollars has the mullahs laughing all the way to the arms dealers.
The US should declare war against Iran, in recognition of the fact that Iran has attacked us regularly since invading our territory in 1979.
Saudi Arabia is next on the list. But the Saudi monarchy is truly the Middle East's "paper tiger", and once Iran is broken, will be easily cowed.
"The Iranian and Saudi regimes are morally illegitimate. They have no right to exist. And their elimination is clearly in the best interests of both American citizens and the citizens of Iran and Saudi Arabia." -- Craig Biddle
https://www.theobjectivestandard.com/issues/2011-summer/iranian-saudi-re...
The US should declare war against Iran, in recognition of the fact that Iran has attacked us regularly since invading our territory in 1979.
Saudi Arabia is next on the list. But the Saudi monarchy is truly the Middle East's "paper tiger", and once Iran is broken, will be easily cowed.
"The Iranian and Saudi regimes are morally illegitimate. They have no right to exist. And their elimination is clearly in the best interests of both American citizens and the citizens of Iran and Saudi Arabia." -- Craig Biddle
https://www.theobjectivestandard.com/issues/2011-summer/iranian-saudi-re...
1
Sunni? Shia? No mention? Maybe you should make an infographic of this for Trump.
"Ha! Not mine, but yours is!"
The above is a summary of the current opinion held by the Religious Right. I know it generally consumes more space what with it's holier-than-thou [but not me] rants and chants.
It won't take you long. Go ahead!
The above is a summary of the current opinion held by the Religious Right. I know it generally consumes more space what with it's holier-than-thou [but not me] rants and chants.
It won't take you long. Go ahead!
The writer of the article has not been fair about the different countries and "terrorism" !! It,s known by everybody which country is fostering and financing the terrorist group in Middle East ! The latest investigations about the 9/11 terrorist attacks, indicated the Saudis relations with the Saudi-born terrorists. When this scandal was uncovered , the Saudis threatened the Americans ,they will pull out their investments in USA if they want to punish Saudis. Unfortunately, US was surrendered to threat and gave it up!!!! Is It a good enough document to show where is the terrorism root? It,s enough,also, if you remember the recent words of Saudi FM ,Jubeir, against Iran,threatening to expand the war inside Iran and punishing Iran!!!! Although it is not like Saudis to threaten Iran,they are so little to speak about Iran, But is it not a certain policy of terrorism? We know terrorism and extremism is in the blood of Saudis ruling system ,genetically!! They have concluded a historic tit -for- tat deal with Wahhabi leaders , they will approve,legalize and support Al Saud family in their tyrannic and barbaric ruling system , in return the Saudi ruling system will let the Wahhabism free and help to expand! We all know that Wahhabism is equal to extremism,terrorism and harassment! this ugly notion has been developed and expanded inside and outside Saudi Peninsula including Afghanistan and Pakistan,through religious schools ,funded and financed by Saudis,and gave birth to terrorism.
Clarity and honesty from Trump?
Very sketchy cases made in a few paragraphs. Saudi Arabia has zero tolerance for many things, including dissent by its own citizens. The kingdom is happy to provide the world the unmentioned bin laden father and son and financing of Sunni terrorists just so long as they don't operate in the kingdom. Wahhabism is a cancerous cult spread virulently by the princes and their dirty oil money. With friends like these clowns, who needs enemies.
1
Donald Trump doesn't have a clue how his own government works, as is painfully obvious as he appears to be in a constant state of rage and confusion over our checks and balances at work and his new impotence at being able to attack and bully his way out of problems, so does anyone believe he has one iota of understanding of the ME and its centuries-long tribal conflicts? No way. Trump is, himself, the thing from which everything derived. If he has money-making businesses in a country, then that is a good country. If he doesn't, then it's not. If the leader of a country praises him, that's all he needs to conclude that that country is good and not capable of doing wrong. (Woe to Australia after the PM's mocking of our president, which was I think an under-appreciated moment in global politics. When has the leader of a Western/civilized nation ever actually mocked, to raucous laughter, the leader of an ally, let alone the US President. I was deeply embarrassed listening to it and wanted to crawl into a hole, as Trump has made me want to do numerous times).
Face it, Trump doesn't do complex or knowledge or wisdom or understanding. Trump signs executive orders and lobs bombs. His lazy intellect and black-and-white "you either think I'm great or you're against me" thinking doesn't work in a job as complex as the US presidency.
Face it, Trump doesn't do complex or knowledge or wisdom or understanding. Trump signs executive orders and lobs bombs. His lazy intellect and black-and-white "you either think I'm great or you're against me" thinking doesn't work in a job as complex as the US presidency.
58
Donald Trump was not responsible for the American invasion and occupation of Iraq.
Donald Trump was not responsible for the coups in Libya, Egypt, Syria and Yemen.
Neither Bush nor Obama won any war nor sustained any peace in the Middle East.
Donald Trump was not responsible for the coups in Libya, Egypt, Syria and Yemen.
Neither Bush nor Obama won any war nor sustained any peace in the Middle East.
1
It seems like Trump's knowledge of foreign affairs is limited to which countries are allowing him free land for his hotels,casinos and golf courses he owns.
It was not really surprising that Trump lied about telling the Saudi King about his disdain for Qatar when he praised the Royals from Qatar in the summit held in the Saudi Capital and had his picture taken with the Qatar's king, smiling broadly.
So his stupid support of 5 middle eastern countries' blockade on Qatar which houses two of our very important naval bases and the country that just agreed to pay us $12 billion for buying a bunch of F-15 jets and two navy vessels, as mentioned by you here, smacks the hypocrisy right on Trump's face.
Just because that tiny country had never approved any of his applications for new hotels and casinos,he wants to punish them and leave the Saudis alone who openly sponsors terrorism all over the world.
No wonder 200 Democratic Congress members sued him over his mixing his presidency with his personal business,breaking our 'emoluments clause of our constitution'.
And that clearly proves very clearly where Trump's foreign policy is taking our country to.
That is any country that does favor Trump in his global ambition of populating this world with his Trump brand of hotels and casinos,he'll allow them a free hand even with their sponsoring of real terrorist activities like Saudi Arabia who sent 16 out of 19 hijackers to take down our buildings killing thousands of people, on 9/11.
It was not really surprising that Trump lied about telling the Saudi King about his disdain for Qatar when he praised the Royals from Qatar in the summit held in the Saudi Capital and had his picture taken with the Qatar's king, smiling broadly.
So his stupid support of 5 middle eastern countries' blockade on Qatar which houses two of our very important naval bases and the country that just agreed to pay us $12 billion for buying a bunch of F-15 jets and two navy vessels, as mentioned by you here, smacks the hypocrisy right on Trump's face.
Just because that tiny country had never approved any of his applications for new hotels and casinos,he wants to punish them and leave the Saudis alone who openly sponsors terrorism all over the world.
No wonder 200 Democratic Congress members sued him over his mixing his presidency with his personal business,breaking our 'emoluments clause of our constitution'.
And that clearly proves very clearly where Trump's foreign policy is taking our country to.
That is any country that does favor Trump in his global ambition of populating this world with his Trump brand of hotels and casinos,he'll allow them a free hand even with their sponsoring of real terrorist activities like Saudi Arabia who sent 16 out of 19 hijackers to take down our buildings killing thousands of people, on 9/11.
52
After nearly two decades of an American led war in the middle east that has just made things worse can we admit that we're in over our heads. We've reached a point where we need to step back and let the United Nations come up with a plan that is supported by the countries in the middle east and the Gulf states to stabilize this region and eliminate the terrorist threats. Afterwards we're going to need a marshall plan for the middle east to bring stability back to the region. These people deserve peace.
42
The people deserve peace as you said.
Our involvement has only led to civil wars. The time to exit is now.
Our involvement has only led to civil wars. The time to exit is now.
Historically, the UN has been more disorganized than the U.S. But these days, that observation may be turned on its head.
By a vote of 33-yes, 13-no and 10-abstentions the UN made this ethnic sectarian Middle Eastern mess by malign European American intent forcing Arab Muslims to pay for the European Christian Holocaust against the Jews. No majority Arab nor majority Muslim nation had a vote. There are currently nearly 200 nations in the UN. Since the UN made this problem the UN should solve it.
1
Among the Shia forces that Iran funds and supports are those aligned with the Iraqi government that the US also funds and supports. The Muslim Brotherhood is 'terrorist' in Saudi Arabia's eyes because it opposes the grotesque anachronism that rules in that benighted place and appeals to many who are oppressed by it. If we allow the term 'terrorism' to be applied as a rough approximation of the term 'enemy' of 'rival for power' we wind up with nonsense, and that is what is happening.
4
The U.S. is the world’s largest oil producer:passing our good friends the Saudis -so we no longer need to look the other way. We should begin holding Saudi Arabia, which outrageously sits on the United Nations Human Rights Council,to the same standards we hold other nations. Lets begin calling the Kingdom out on its human rights abuses, suppression of women, & extremism support. Having supplied nearly $100 billion in military aid to the Saudis, it’s time The U.S. have conditions on any future assistance. Somehow lost in translation was that Saudi Arabia should feel any shame for continuing to practice a kind of daily, institutional barbarism. This is a nation that reportedly beheaded 90 people last year and more than 100 so far this year. It is a country in which victims of gang rape have been sentenced to prison & 200 lashes; in which an acceptable punishment for women accused of adultery is to bury them in the ground to their head and then allow a circle of men to stone them to death; in which women aren’t allowed to work, travel, drive or even leave the house without permission from their male “guardians.”. And yet, for more than half a century, Saudi Arabia’s appalling human rights record has been given a free pass by the United States. Why? Could our politicians and lobbyists inability to keep their hands out of their sandy pockets be an issue? Probably.
Our“Riyadh friends” are actually enemies of democracy & modernity in the world today. Stop making excuses for them.
Our“Riyadh friends” are actually enemies of democracy & modernity in the world today. Stop making excuses for them.
113
I remember reading years ago a thesis that the wahhabism was purposefully spread because fomenting a hatred of western culture would occupy restless sects and keep them from turning on the royals.
The US oil & gas producers are most interested in selling their products wherever they get the most return. Even the Keystone Pipeline (which Trump has authorized to be built with half imported materials, goes from Canada directly to the refineries and deep-water port in Louisiana, where it can be loaded on ships bound for foreign countries. Oil is sold on a bourse (commodities exchange) like the New York Mercantile Exchange and ICE (the Intercontinental Exchange). ICE, though headquartered in Atlanta, has offices all over the world (like in Singapore, London, & Amsterdam) & trades Canadian & American oil & natural gas all over the world. If a bourse can sell American oil for more in another country, while buying oil more cheaply from a third country, it does. America does not necessarily produce our own oil.
The Europeans need Saudi oil.
America has 25% of the world's prisoners with 5% of humanity. And 40% of the 2.3 million are black. America executes more people than all of Europe combined but fewer than the Saudis. American misogyny is endemic. Black lives do not matter in America. Calling out the Saudis on human rights requires callous cruel cynical hypocrisy.
While the Saudis pay for their American arms the Israelis do not.
How did the 6 million Christian Muslim Arab Palestinian Israeli's under Israeli dominion by occupation, blockade/siege, exile and second class citizenship vote in the last Israeli election
America has 25% of the world's prisoners with 5% of humanity. And 40% of the 2.3 million are black. America executes more people than all of Europe combined but fewer than the Saudis. American misogyny is endemic. Black lives do not matter in America. Calling out the Saudis on human rights requires callous cruel cynical hypocrisy.
While the Saudis pay for their American arms the Israelis do not.
How did the 6 million Christian Muslim Arab Palestinian Israeli's under Israeli dominion by occupation, blockade/siege, exile and second class citizenship vote in the last Israeli election
1
There isn’t one Saint among the characters in the Middle East, each one has their own agenda & looks with suspicion at each other, & in the middle of this quagmire is our terribly confused President, who is allies & enemies of each at the same time.While this is going on ISIS still exists as dangerous as ever. One of Trumps main promises was the defeat of ISIS, which has gone nowhere, along with the Mexican wall, & factory jobs, as a matter of fact he hasn’t accomplished anything to rave about.The only thing he can do is take the responsibility for the momentum in our economy & Wall St. that Obama started.The world looks upon him as a buffoon & a farce, what he has accomplished was destroying our credibility with our former allies.
76
Joe Blow: You should speak for yourself. Actually, c-in-c has accomplished a great deal: confirmation of a SP Justice, removal of burdensome regulations so that businesses, small and large, can thrive, roundup of dangerous M-13 members, let into the country thanks to Unaccompanied Minors Act supported by Obama,telling the " quatre verites" to NATO members, warning them its time to pay their share, solidifying an alliance between the Kingdom in the Peninsula and Israel, our most reliable ally. When is the last time we had a c-in-c who was not just a liberal arts major with a j.d., but skilled as a negotiator, reader of contracts--I understand the best in America, and assets as a builder which will serve us well when it comes time to repair the infrastructure.?ISIS will be never be defeated, and it's existence as a terrorist threat is the tragic legacy of Western imperialism.RR PALMER, author of "A History of the Modern World,"wrote that the land is rising as it sinks, that is to say,in some respects we are advancing towards a harmonious world order, but in other respects we are confronted with retrogressive movements which continue to "semer la zizanie" among different ethnic groups, peoples, and which must be contained.You must ask yourself "What can I do as one person to contribute to the commonweal. even if it is only rescuing an abandoned dog on the highway.Remember, when you throw a pebble into a pond. it creates ripples.
Alex,
Your agenda is quite clear. To begin with the only European Ally that Trump is really concerned with is his buddies in the Kremlin.
Lets face it Trump, is a liar & a bag of wind, he will promise you anything & accomplish nothing.He would have never got into UP without his fathers money
Your agenda is quite clear. To begin with the only European Ally that Trump is really concerned with is his buddies in the Kremlin.
Lets face it Trump, is a liar & a bag of wind, he will promise you anything & accomplish nothing.He would have never got into UP without his fathers money
1
We don't need any saints nor sinners in the Middle East. We need nations who create far fewer extremists than we can kill. That requires diplomacy, commerce and aid in accord with advancing American interests by following American values regarding equal certain unalienable rights most of the time most places for most people.
The IDF is far more formidable as an ethnic sectarian extremist supremacist threat than ISIS or al Qaeda.
Neither Bush nor Obama won their war in Iraq. ISIS and al Qaeda live.
The IDF is far more formidable as an ethnic sectarian extremist supremacist threat than ISIS or al Qaeda.
Neither Bush nor Obama won their war in Iraq. ISIS and al Qaeda live.
1
THERE ARE TWO Sayings in the Mideast: 1) Enemies make for strange bedfellows and 2) Hold your friends close and your enemies closer. They may as well be the titles of two songs to which the countries of the region are doing a dance. A dance that involves much trodding on toes. If hatred is the opposite side of the coin that stands for love, there are, indeed, many two-sided coins in the region. It looks as if ambivalence is favored as much as love and/or hatred. With global climate change making the dry deserts even drier, the struggle to survive without sufficient fresh water is going to drive conflicts well beyond those that have arisen over fossil fuels. Here in the US we're even worse off, since Trump wandered off twice during a visit with Netanyahu, then shoved the leader of Montenegro out of the way during a friendly summit meeting. Not to mention a brief spell of being unable to catch his breath, a grayish skin tone with glazed, unfocused eyes and flattened facial affect. On a good day, Trump will praise Putin, under whom Russia has taken to hacking into the computer systems of democratic countries including the EU and the US. If anyone knows which end is up, that person could easily out trump Trump. And nobody wants to work for the State Department under his tutelage. Toot toot! Toodles. American's role in world leadership is evaporating before our eyes.
5
Seeking to make sense of the conflicting motivations in the Middle East is as bootless an exercise as trying to get Democrats to participate meaningfully in our governance instead of merely caterwauling against policies with which they disagree. As all recent presidents have, Trump ends up doing the sensible thing and tries to get as many players on our side as he can to focus combined efforts at fighting enemies and fostering a general regional stability. Neither is a particularly easy task.
NONE of these players are pure from our perspective: they ALL have conflicted motivations and interests, and they all seek to play us to further those parochial interests. And none of them has unambiguous interests in de-funding terrorism.
But you can't win a game that you're not in.
NONE of these players are pure from our perspective: they ALL have conflicted motivations and interests, and they all seek to play us to further those parochial interests. And none of them has unambiguous interests in de-funding terrorism.
But you can't win a game that you're not in.
I'm sure glad the Republicans don't caterwaul against policies with which they disagree. That's why so much of Obama's agenda was expeditiously passed during his presidency, right?
1
Esteemed Editorial Board...You make great points.
But you fail to cover the part about the eight years of the Obama administration when the liberal view of the world held sway in all matters of foreign policy...
Remember that foreign policy and interactions are the sole and exclusive province of the Executive Branch and its chief executive, the President of the United States.
Both Secretaries of State under that administration, Hillary Clinton and John Kerry had ample opportunity to revise the policies of the United States to make them less self-destructive. They chose not to, and President Obama was in complete concurrence.
To take Trump to task on this is probably the correct stance. But to leave out the fact that Trump is merely extending the existing policies of the late Democratic administration is a denial of the very reality that you are trying to present.
Another unforced error, on your part, ladies and gentlemen, It appears to be becoming a habit in your musings.
But you fail to cover the part about the eight years of the Obama administration when the liberal view of the world held sway in all matters of foreign policy...
Remember that foreign policy and interactions are the sole and exclusive province of the Executive Branch and its chief executive, the President of the United States.
Both Secretaries of State under that administration, Hillary Clinton and John Kerry had ample opportunity to revise the policies of the United States to make them less self-destructive. They chose not to, and President Obama was in complete concurrence.
To take Trump to task on this is probably the correct stance. But to leave out the fact that Trump is merely extending the existing policies of the late Democratic administration is a denial of the very reality that you are trying to present.
Another unforced error, on your part, ladies and gentlemen, It appears to be becoming a habit in your musings.
2
The reason, it seems to me, that policies haven't changed is that there isn't a clear path, which was the whole point of the article. In your effort to politicize it you imply that there is something different we could do that would solve the problems in that part of the world. I wish you would have enlightened us with that. It sounds like you think a massive war might solve the problem. There are a few of us with reservations about that course.
4
Trump has unnecessarily taken sides among our allies or partners in a way that is new and that may be uniquely harmful. I believe that the NY Times Editorial Board is musing on that.
1
Every weapon we sell/give to the region, every dollar given (used to buy weapons), we may very well find ourselves up against in some future skirmish. Get out of the Middle East, let these people sort out their own messes. We need attention here at home--our infrastructure, education systems, reforming healthcare, and possibly most important--reforming our election system.
12
This is not new. It is the age-old strategy of divide and conquer that has been adopted by the US/Israel team. The more they fight each other, the less we have to be concerned about. The strategists play on the long-standing Sunni -Shiite religious dispute. Whenever the two sides seem to be approaching peaceful co-existence, the US/Israel team is called into action and some horrendous act of violence recreates the divide. And of course the US arms industry profits immensely.
14
Can you please clarify where you see the two sides approaching a peaceful coexistence? (Or even what those two sides are?)
Also specifically how you see these latest bumblings by Trump as promoting the sale of arms?
And how do the most recent horrendous acts of violence, the terrorist attacks by ISIS in Iran, fit into your picture?
Also specifically how you see these latest bumblings by Trump as promoting the sale of arms?
And how do the most recent horrendous acts of violence, the terrorist attacks by ISIS in Iran, fit into your picture?
We sell them the weapons; they blow up the weapons; we sell them more --- USA the nation who loves war. Disgraceful!
1
Are you suggesting, Greg, that the United States and Israel gratuitously take violent measures to forestall some sort of harmony in the region?
I have long been a student in Middle Eastern affairs, and did my international relations thesis on the subject. I do not see any basis for your premise(s) in my research on the subject.
I would suggest a degree more objectivity in your analyses before you make such sweeping and decidedly unsupportable allegations. It does nothing to further the understandings of the problems standing in the way of comity nor does it further concept of safe, secure, and free lives of the people living in the area.
I have long been a student in Middle Eastern affairs, and did my international relations thesis on the subject. I do not see any basis for your premise(s) in my research on the subject.
I would suggest a degree more objectivity in your analyses before you make such sweeping and decidedly unsupportable allegations. It does nothing to further the understandings of the problems standing in the way of comity nor does it further concept of safe, secure, and free lives of the people living in the area.
Wasn't one of Bin Laden's goals to rid his homeland, Saudi Arabia, of foreign interests, particularly the US? It seems to me that there are opposing factions within Saudi Arabia and that the House of Saud is not standing on firm ground. There are other actors within Saudi Arabia that we here in the US know nothing about. I hope that our intelligence agencies do. The real investigations need to be into the money flow for terrorism just as with drugs and in fact it may all be related. It seems so easy to corrupt people with money and that may be the true obstacle in this ongoing sad saga. Many people thought that Trump would be above that because he is already rich but I think they fail to understand that his own little empire is not exactly invulnerable. In fact he has great ambitions for his businesses and for his family. And to me he seems very corruptible.
10
What excuse, Mr. Robertson, are you offering to explain why Barack Obama and his administration followed the exact same policies, and, indeed, presented these policies as the de facto relationships between the United States and the Middle-Eastern nations that are the subject of this editorial?
Please be specific in your response.
Please be specific in your response.
Excuse? An explanation is not an excuse. Regardless, Obama's polices and before him George Bush's were more in alignment than the new Trump policy. During the oil shortages of the seventies a lot of this played out and set the stage for our current situation. Obama and Bush, Clinton and Bush I, all of them followed the State Dept recommendations to ally with both Quatar and Saudia Arabia and we have bases in both places. Important bases. And we've long been selling arms to all the players in the Middle East. The Saud family has been in charge for quite a long time and I am suggesting that there are other families in Saudi Arabia and indeed in other neighboring countries who oppose them. There is a battle going on which, since so few have true insider knowledge and how do you infiltrate the Arabs, that we cannot know about. Rumsfeld got criticized for talking about the "unknowable unknowns" and so on but in philosophy that is a topic of much discussion. Trump has actually started to upset the apple cart by aligning with the Sauds over the Emir who runs Quatar, which is also a monarchy, and I am suggesting that he hopes to profit handsomely thereby. The Bushes, Clinton and Obama were all in some loose agreement as to how this relationship was structured but Trump is taking sides. I think the Arab world is in the middle of some great upheaval among the ruling classes. ISIS is funded by people in Saudi Arabia not necessarily the current royal family.
Forgive me for stating what seems obvious regarding the War on Terror; I'm not a foreign policy expert. What we've been fighting since 1979 is a war against radicalized individuals who commit terrorist acts. Unfortunately, many of them live in countries that we've had arms agreements with since before 1979. Modern nation-states just aren't well prepared to fight a war against borderless enemy individuals who band together to commit acts of war. Some resist the "clash of civilizations" argument, but that's in effect what radical Islamists are declaring against everyone they view as their enemies. After 9/11, President Bush declared war against any nation that harbors terrorists; well, it's now painfully obvious that that statement covers a vast number of countries, too many for the West to declare war against unless we're prepared to fight "World War III." It's quite a dilemma, one the world hasn't faced. I don't have an answer.
4
I think your understanding, sir, would be enhanced if you recognized that the Middle East still remains at heart a "tribal" area.
In fact, it is tribal environment with a divisive and violent religious overlay. It is a struggle for power, religious and secular, that may not see resolution this century.
In fact, it is tribal environment with a divisive and violent religious overlay. It is a struggle for power, religious and secular, that may not see resolution this century.
When are we getting looted oil from Iraq and Syria that Trump promised us?
1
We'll get the looted oil right after Trump puts the coal miners back to work.
3
One thing that can be taken from this editorial is that no one has clean hands. Qatar funds the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Taliban. The Brotherhood may have "forsworn violence but as the Washington Post points out they are "now competing with more extreme Islamist rivals." Many of the terrorist who were part of 911 were from Saudi Arabia. Name one country over there that we can give our non terrorism "Seal of Approval" Does anyone think our significant ally has clean hands. We have no power to dictate to other countries what the do. We can only pick the best of the bunch and try to influence them. Qatar is sold planes and warships but they haven't invaded any other country or handed them over to ISIS. With the recent actions of the Saudis and UAI, we may be able to show them that funding terrorist is negatively affecting them. In the end though we have to work with what's available or jut pull every person and every thing of ours out of the Middle East and tell them to work it out themselves
2
We just pick according to who has the most money to buy our arms. Isn't that pretty obvious??
This is all too complicated for Trump. I still wonder if he even knew we have 10,000 service members in Qatar. I doubt it. All he cares about is his picture, ten stories high on the side of a Saudi building. He thought that was great! Love those Saudis!
9
If it is all too complicated for Trump, what is your view of the eight years of Obama and his administration that has left Trump with an even greater mess than there was in 2009?
Saudi Arabia gives billions of dollars to extremist clerics that foster terrorism, including Al Qaeda and ISIS, all over the world, but Iran is the "bad actor" and the "worst" because they support Palestinian resistance?
We support resistance groups all over the world.
This is pure propaganda. Are US "experts" really saying that Hezbollah is worse than Al Qaeda and ISIS combined?
Meanwhile the War in Iraq gave both Al Qaeda Iraq which morphed into ISIS and Iran a power vacuum to step into.
Who are these "experts?" Are they the same people that told us invading Iraq would unleash democracy across the Middle East?
For every act of aggression by Iran against us, they cite one far worse. We overthrew their elected government and installed a Shah. When he became unpopular, the CIA trained them in torture of political dissidents. That is what brought the Mullahs to power. We also shot down one of their commercial airliners. We claimed it was an accident, but the commander who ordered it was promoted.
Our foreign policy makes no sense, because it has been hijacked by global billionaires. But even when Trump brags about how much he makes from the Saudis, no one wants to believe the obvious.
We support resistance groups all over the world.
This is pure propaganda. Are US "experts" really saying that Hezbollah is worse than Al Qaeda and ISIS combined?
Meanwhile the War in Iraq gave both Al Qaeda Iraq which morphed into ISIS and Iran a power vacuum to step into.
Who are these "experts?" Are they the same people that told us invading Iraq would unleash democracy across the Middle East?
For every act of aggression by Iran against us, they cite one far worse. We overthrew their elected government and installed a Shah. When he became unpopular, the CIA trained them in torture of political dissidents. That is what brought the Mullahs to power. We also shot down one of their commercial airliners. We claimed it was an accident, but the commander who ordered it was promoted.
Our foreign policy makes no sense, because it has been hijacked by global billionaires. But even when Trump brags about how much he makes from the Saudis, no one wants to believe the obvious.
12
I think that, on analysis, you will find that it was the removal of troops from Iraq that cause the political vacuum in Iraq that allowed ISIS to gain foothold.
And, Obama considering ISIS to be the "JV" and not adequately responding to the threat had far more to do with affairs than you might be willing to admit.
I would suggest that you misunderstand the dynamics of what is going on in the Middle East today...It is remains a tribal and religious struggle for power and hegemony. The people who live under this umbrella of gratuitous violence are merely pawns and human shields for the players.
Whatever US policy might be in the area, we will have little to do with the process when peace actually breaks out there.
And, Obama considering ISIS to be the "JV" and not adequately responding to the threat had far more to do with affairs than you might be willing to admit.
I would suggest that you misunderstand the dynamics of what is going on in the Middle East today...It is remains a tribal and religious struggle for power and hegemony. The people who live under this umbrella of gratuitous violence are merely pawns and human shields for the players.
Whatever US policy might be in the area, we will have little to do with the process when peace actually breaks out there.
It's not rocket science to realize that Saudi Arabia is the major incubator of terrorism in the middle east. This begins with it's exportation of Wahhabi extremism to countries around the world.
As for President Trump, he makes his foreign policy decisions based on how well they align with his business enterprises. With the Saudi's he has plenty. With Qatar, none, though apparently this isn't for a lack of effort on his part.
As for President Trump, he makes his foreign policy decisions based on how well they align with his business enterprises. With the Saudi's he has plenty. With Qatar, none, though apparently this isn't for a lack of effort on his part.
9
The "[Muslim] Brotherhood has officially forsworn violence"? Really? Hamas, the Palestinian arm of the Muslim Brotherhood, continues to dig tunnels to enable terrorist attacks in Israel (the most such recent tunnel discovered under an UNRWA last week), launches missiles exclusively at Israeli civilian targets. If that is not terrorism, I don't know what is.
4
It's hard to absorb the lesson that the conflict in the Middle East doesn't divide into good guys and bad guys. I'm pretty sure Rex Tillerson knows this. Where is his voice articulating "deft diplomacy" that would help?
6
In order to be influential in the policy choices of the nation, a Secretary of State does not necessarily have to be vocal.
It may be necessary for you to understand that, but since the Constitution of the United States cedes foreign policy matters to the Executive Branch, your "understanding" is not relevant to discussions.
The election of 2016 was as much about the policies of the Obama administration as it was about the character of Hillary Clinton.
The People made their choice. And by "The People" I mean those across the nation that quite remarkably switched from being "Obama Democrats" to being "Trump Republicans. (See: Larry Sabato's UVA Center for Politics" analysis of this remarkable change in direction.)
The best diplomacy is the quiet diplomacy. It is far to early to tell whether or not a we are seeing quiet diplomacy or no diplomacy at all.
Check back in a couple of years...We might be better able to answer the question. And, if no progress is made, we have the 2020 elections as an opportunity again for change.
It may be necessary for you to understand that, but since the Constitution of the United States cedes foreign policy matters to the Executive Branch, your "understanding" is not relevant to discussions.
The election of 2016 was as much about the policies of the Obama administration as it was about the character of Hillary Clinton.
The People made their choice. And by "The People" I mean those across the nation that quite remarkably switched from being "Obama Democrats" to being "Trump Republicans. (See: Larry Sabato's UVA Center for Politics" analysis of this remarkable change in direction.)
The best diplomacy is the quiet diplomacy. It is far to early to tell whether or not a we are seeing quiet diplomacy or no diplomacy at all.
Check back in a couple of years...We might be better able to answer the question. And, if no progress is made, we have the 2020 elections as an opportunity again for change.
America has caused the problem that the world has to face considering terrorism.
Regardless of the atrocities the Israel's inflict on their neighbors, America stand staunchly behind them. This continued the rallying cry many decades ago against America from the Arab communities.
America pushed the Palestinians for elections. The elections took place and America and Israel did not like the results - Hamas won. So now Israel and America decide to ignore the results and have divided the Palestinian people.
Then we had George Bush invading Iraq and making the terrible mistake of disbanding the Iraqi military. All of these career soldiers lost their jobs. What were they to do for the remainder of their lives - sell Chiclets? And the decision to disband the Military eventually gave the world ISIS.
Now America has an unqualified person as president who makes all decisions using a win/loss philosophy. A president you has now become America's first Czar. A president you has made "hate" an okay thing.
In the end, all of the decisions made by America concerning Qatar, Saudi Arabia, etc, will be based on the economic profit Czar Trump and his family can attain from these countries.
Regardless of the atrocities the Israel's inflict on their neighbors, America stand staunchly behind them. This continued the rallying cry many decades ago against America from the Arab communities.
America pushed the Palestinians for elections. The elections took place and America and Israel did not like the results - Hamas won. So now Israel and America decide to ignore the results and have divided the Palestinian people.
Then we had George Bush invading Iraq and making the terrible mistake of disbanding the Iraqi military. All of these career soldiers lost their jobs. What were they to do for the remainder of their lives - sell Chiclets? And the decision to disband the Military eventually gave the world ISIS.
Now America has an unqualified person as president who makes all decisions using a win/loss philosophy. A president you has now become America's first Czar. A president you has made "hate" an okay thing.
In the end, all of the decisions made by America concerning Qatar, Saudi Arabia, etc, will be based on the economic profit Czar Trump and his family can attain from these countries.
8
what's the concern?
trump assures the 'folks' continually that he knows more than everybody about everything.
because he's, you know, really smart.
trump assures the 'folks' continually that he knows more than everybody about everything.
because he's, you know, really smart.
5
Just observe what is going on in the world, and try to decide a true definition of "extremist". I doubt you know. To paraphrase an old saying: "One man's extremist is another man's freedom fighter."
4
Things will not become clarified until we stop using words like terrorist and terrorism. They have no clear meaning, but we use them as if they did. Was the attack on Pearl Harbor government-sponsored terrorism? The top news today is that British authorities have labeled the driving of a van into pedestrians outside a mosque as an "act of terror." What's the significance? Is it different than attempted murder? I don't think so. It is just a fuzzy label we need to place on bad things all around us. Language rules how we think. Fuzzy language makes for fuzzy thinking.
4
The ultimate in terrorism is war.
1
We can think fuzzy thinker George W. Bush for the fuzzy language. But the distinction is clear -- only brown people can be terrorists, everyone else is just "demented."
Oh, you are mistaken. George W. Bush used another term: turrerism and turist. It didn't catch on outside Texas.
This article is the first I have read in NYT which calls out the Saudis for funding terror, but it does not go far enough. The royal family does indeed depend on the Wahhabists for legitimacy. Extreme religion helps to control their large, uneducated population so they don't want to reform their version of Islam, which is the ideological basis for groups including Al Qaeda and ISIS. The Saudis do fund ISIS and Al Shabaab, and are responsible for the war in Yemen, which they have framed as sectarian, although its roots are actually in economic inequality and its history as a proxy battleground for pro and anti Communists, among whom were Russia and the US.
Iran as a state sponsor of terrorism needs to be examined in the context of that country being constantly threatened by the Saudis and Americans. Naturally, Iran seeks allies wherever it can find them - among hezbollah and the Alawites, who are considered by some as closer to Shia Islam than Sunni Islam. We need to stop fueling the conditions that cause Iran to feel insecure and thus to fund sympathetic terror groups.
It's time to call a spade a spade. The US needs to take responsibility for its role in perpetuating terrorism funding by both Sunnis and Shias in the Mid East. That starts by cutting ties with the Saudis, and really cutting ties with Qatar. Stop selling arms and doing real estate deals with all of them. Impose economic sanctions and travel restrictions on all of them. Enough with American hypocrisy.
Iran as a state sponsor of terrorism needs to be examined in the context of that country being constantly threatened by the Saudis and Americans. Naturally, Iran seeks allies wherever it can find them - among hezbollah and the Alawites, who are considered by some as closer to Shia Islam than Sunni Islam. We need to stop fueling the conditions that cause Iran to feel insecure and thus to fund sympathetic terror groups.
It's time to call a spade a spade. The US needs to take responsibility for its role in perpetuating terrorism funding by both Sunnis and Shias in the Mid East. That starts by cutting ties with the Saudis, and really cutting ties with Qatar. Stop selling arms and doing real estate deals with all of them. Impose economic sanctions and travel restrictions on all of them. Enough with American hypocrisy.
15
And withdraw US troops from the Middle East. The bottom line is, we believe we need their oil. Forego it. Continue to build our energy independence. Sacrifice a little, Americans, in order to get out of a wretched quagmire.
As long as Trump is president, our foreign policy in the Middle East, and in particular our fight against ISIS, will be an absurd combination of confusion, contradiction, inconsistency and venality. Oddly, this may end up being not all that much worse than what we got with Obama's intelligent and nuanced balancing act. When you're talking about multiple, sworn enemies who have been driven by ferocious hatred of one another for centuries, you're talking about a deep bog where even the best strategies and tactics become irrelevant.
2
This is different from our foreign policy put forth by republican presidents before him how?
Isn't Obama's "intelligent and nuanced balancing act" somewhat responsible for the situation as it is now?
On the one hand, we have a somewhat chaotic view of Trump's foreign policy, and on the other we have Obama's proven record of failure of policy on many levels. (See: Crimea, Isis, Yemen, South China Sea)
Which is preferable?
Honest answer, please.
On the one hand, we have a somewhat chaotic view of Trump's foreign policy, and on the other we have Obama's proven record of failure of policy on many levels. (See: Crimea, Isis, Yemen, South China Sea)
Which is preferable?
Honest answer, please.
I would like to suggest that until something is done to curb foreign money and influence in our elections, nothing is going to change.
2
Significantly, the Americans are not accusing Russia, Iran’s ally, of terrorism for using its firepower to keep the Assad government in power; no Iranians were named as responsible when the administration in February published a list of 78 major terrorist attacks. And some of Iran’s activities, particularly its war on ISIS, dovetail with Western ambitions.
"True, Qatar has long been accused of funneling money to the Muslim Brotherhood, a loose and influential political network. The Brotherhood has officially forsworn violence. Yet Saudi Arabia, whose royal rulers fear Islamist populism, still brands it a terrorist outfit."
Economic and wealth inequality are fueling revolutions all over the globe. The ruling class in any country is afraid of populist uprisings and will use any means necessary, short of addressing the underlying problems, to quell this justified unrest. People suffer horribly under conditions that can be ameliorated by humans who act with reason and compassion instead of propaganda and force. Until we choose humanity over ideology, conditions will not improve significantly.
Economic and wealth inequality are fueling revolutions all over the globe. The ruling class in any country is afraid of populist uprisings and will use any means necessary, short of addressing the underlying problems, to quell this justified unrest. People suffer horribly under conditions that can be ameliorated by humans who act with reason and compassion instead of propaganda and force. Until we choose humanity over ideology, conditions will not improve significantly.
All we can expect from the White House is further support and admiration of the region's authoritarians, refusal to engage in diplomatic efforts in the region and a complete delegation of decision making in the region to the Pentagon, Hence the recent air to air combat with Russian backed Syria. This mess promises to escalate and no one in the White House is willing to step up and take responsibility. Watch President Trump tweet "hey it wasnt my decision". SAD
6
I recall Trump saying he had a plan to defeat ISIS within a month.
Wouldn't this be a great time to deploy this amazing secret plan?
Wouldn't this be a great time to deploy this amazing secret plan?
34
Obama termed ISIS "JV."
In the summer of 2014, after repeatedly clashing with other Obama administration officials over his management of the Defense Intelligence Agency — and what he saw as his unheeded warnings about the rising power of Islamic militants — Mr. Flynn was fired,
In the summer of 2014, after repeatedly clashing with other Obama administration officials over his management of the Defense Intelligence Agency — and what he saw as his unheeded warnings about the rising power of Islamic militants — Mr. Flynn was fired,
6
Give me a break. By 2014, everyone knew about Islamic militants. Don't make a hero out of Flynn.
3
R.R. - Perhaps it's time to be more concerned with the present. Your veiled attempt to lay this at the feet of the previous administration, while you think is admirable, is nothing more than stark evidence of the #1 problem facing our country today! Blind partisan haggling and a refusal to accept that your team is to blame for anything. Right now the POTUS is Donald J Trump, this problem now sits on his desk and he should be the one we should be holding accountable!
"In the summer of 2014, after repeatedly clashing with other Obama administration officials over his management of the Defense Intelligence Agency — and what he saw as his unheeded warnings about the rising power of Islamic militants — Mr. Flynn was fired"
Flynn was fired for being an insubordinate, self-dealing loose cannon and an abysmal manager. He has since confirmed the wisdom of President Obama's decision by entangling himself with the governments of Russia and Turkey for personal profit.
Flynn was fired for being an insubordinate, self-dealing loose cannon and an abysmal manager. He has since confirmed the wisdom of President Obama's decision by entangling himself with the governments of Russia and Turkey for personal profit.
3
"Exaggerating or misrepresenting the misdeeds of Qatar and Iran, while giving the Saudis a free pass, will only benefit Saudi Arabia’s efforts to expand its regional influence."
And that is why the US does it. The US wants to expand Saudi regional influence.
Why? A clue was "Bandar Bush" who was like a brother to the Bush family. They are "our guys" in the Gulf. The US is expanding its own influence, when it expands Saudi influence. Plus of course there are hundreds of billions of petrodollars that come back to the US.
And that is why the US does it. The US wants to expand Saudi regional influence.
Why? A clue was "Bandar Bush" who was like a brother to the Bush family. They are "our guys" in the Gulf. The US is expanding its own influence, when it expands Saudi influence. Plus of course there are hundreds of billions of petrodollars that come back to the US.
13
When Bandar Bush was discovered to have taken millions in kick backs for arms sales to the Saudis, he scurried back home. But he was instrumental in getting all the rich Saudis, including some Bin Ladens, flown out of the US without any questioning, after 9-11 when all other flights were grounded.
2
I go by the assumption that the CIA is funding both sides of ever fight in the Middle East. War is good business for Republicans and Corporate Democrats.
15
This editorial states that Iran’s sponsorship of terrorism is perceived as worse than Saudi Arabia's "because [Iran's] involvement with extremist groups is sponsored by the government." In other words, when someone lies dead, felled by a terrorist bomb, its "worse" if the bomb was state-financed rather than privately financed (in all likelihood with the government looking the other way). That makes no sense and certainly matters not a bit to the deceased. The editorialist simply fails to acknowledge that the US is taking sides in a religious war. State-sanctioned and state-tolerated terrorism are simply masks worn by the different elements of Islam that masquerade as modern governments. The USA, with its long tradition of keeping church and state separate should not be drawn into a religious war.
25
Why would local people in Syria testify that it was an opposition-group who killed the popular ISIS leader recently, but ‘Russia’ says, that they ‘may’ have killed a popular-leader of ISIS? How does that make sense with the locals not then suspecting Russian or Assad troops instead?
I suspect that it might have been a Russian ‘front-group’ masked as a leftist-extremist group who may have done the killing, causing trouble in Syria for the opposition among Putin’s ‘unnecessary’ death-games in Syria, with Russia also taking international credit. It’s either that, or Russia is trying to take false-accountability for the killing in an attempt to not let any opposition groups, gain any credibility or momentum, to cause confusion about the Syrian people’s actual reality in their country.
I suspect that it might have been a Russian ‘front-group’ masked as a leftist-extremist group who may have done the killing, causing trouble in Syria for the opposition among Putin’s ‘unnecessary’ death-games in Syria, with Russia also taking international credit. It’s either that, or Russia is trying to take false-accountability for the killing in an attempt to not let any opposition groups, gain any credibility or momentum, to cause confusion about the Syrian people’s actual reality in their country.
1
How can the U.S. fight ISIS effectively while Trump & Co. is fighting Washington and the nation?
10
Fight ISIS? The Junior Bush administration midwifed it by botching the Iraq occupation. The Obama Administration exacerbated it by, despite evidence in Iraq that regime change fails by fomenting a power vacuum, repeated the regime change blunder in Libya.
We can't get out of our own way in the ME.
We can't get out of our own way in the ME.
1
"Even sophisticated observers admit to confusion and consternation about the......."
...there needs to be clarity and honesty about the various sources of the problem, and the various contributions each nation can make to the struggle"
The opening sentence and another from the closing paragraph of the article above. If I inserted "climate change" in lieu of Mid East it would still read correctly. Rather disheartening that our progress as a country has taken a giant leap backwards on just about every front in the last 5 months. Whether it's health care, immigration, international affairs and cooperation, climate change, etc. were undoing all the good that has been accomplished in the previous 8 years. Very sad indeed.
...there needs to be clarity and honesty about the various sources of the problem, and the various contributions each nation can make to the struggle"
The opening sentence and another from the closing paragraph of the article above. If I inserted "climate change" in lieu of Mid East it would still read correctly. Rather disheartening that our progress as a country has taken a giant leap backwards on just about every front in the last 5 months. Whether it's health care, immigration, international affairs and cooperation, climate change, etc. were undoing all the good that has been accomplished in the previous 8 years. Very sad indeed.
16
Don't forget that Saudi Arabia sent in the tanks to crush the "Arab Spring" uprising in Bahrain. Also, it is important to underline the conflict between Saudi Wahabism / Salafism and the Qatari support for the Brotherhood is the subtext for the return of the military in Egypt too.
8
This editorial is good for what it does, but it doesn't go far enough. It still downplays the historical role of Wahhabism and role of the Saudi's in unleashing and sponsoring jihad that has caused terrorism to explode worldwide.
Terrorism is a tactic, not a state, organization or philosophy. The politics driving terrorism has always been the Saudi's extreme version of Wahhabism.
We helped let this genie out of the bottle with our ill-fated policy to sponsor jihad in Afghanistan. We encouraged the attack against the socialist government of Afghanistan and then waged a full scale CIA led, but Saudi funded war against the Soviets.
In the aftermath of Afghanistan the radical jihadists were flush with power, money and ideology. The Saudi's and the US both want weak states in the Middle East, albeit for different reasons. This is what's behind our failing "regime change" policy.
But weak states become the breeding ground for Wahhabi inspired jihad as the lack of jobs and corruption drive disaffected youth to be radicalized and attack the West.
The Saudi's are content as long as this mayhem occurs outside the kingdom and this will continue until and unless the US undergoes its own radical change in policy.
The enmity between Iran and the Kingdom is geopolitical, not religious. Both are Islamic states, but one is a republic and the other s strict, conservative monarchy with enormous wealth in the hands of a few.
Quite simply, it is time for a radical shift in US policy.
Terrorism is a tactic, not a state, organization or philosophy. The politics driving terrorism has always been the Saudi's extreme version of Wahhabism.
We helped let this genie out of the bottle with our ill-fated policy to sponsor jihad in Afghanistan. We encouraged the attack against the socialist government of Afghanistan and then waged a full scale CIA led, but Saudi funded war against the Soviets.
In the aftermath of Afghanistan the radical jihadists were flush with power, money and ideology. The Saudi's and the US both want weak states in the Middle East, albeit for different reasons. This is what's behind our failing "regime change" policy.
But weak states become the breeding ground for Wahhabi inspired jihad as the lack of jobs and corruption drive disaffected youth to be radicalized and attack the West.
The Saudi's are content as long as this mayhem occurs outside the kingdom and this will continue until and unless the US undergoes its own radical change in policy.
The enmity between Iran and the Kingdom is geopolitical, not religious. Both are Islamic states, but one is a republic and the other s strict, conservative monarchy with enormous wealth in the hands of a few.
Quite simply, it is time for a radical shift in US policy.
32
The Sunni-Shia schism is more than "geopolitical."
Excellent summary of the issue. But expecting the Trump Administration to employ "clarity and honesty" seems futile.
10
Who knew fighting ISIS could be so complicated?
18
Thank you, NYT for explaining this very complex situation. Maybe a board or
video game with all the players could enlighten the Prez who reportedly
doesn't read. I agree with another reader who believes Trump is selling out to
the Saudis because of his holdings and fragile ego, certainly not our national
security or counterterrorism. Blood and treasure don't appear to matter.
Business is business, right?
video game with all the players could enlighten the Prez who reportedly
doesn't read. I agree with another reader who believes Trump is selling out to
the Saudis because of his holdings and fragile ego, certainly not our national
security or counterterrorism. Blood and treasure don't appear to matter.
Business is business, right?
53
Curiously, as much and as long as you have urged our role in peace negotiations between Israel and its Arab Palestinian adversary, one seldom if never finds much American ----nor Western interest ----from you or our State Dept. in a similar role for us to negotiate a peace and reconciliation between Sunnis and Shi'ites.
Is the Sunni-Shiite quarrel somehow of use to our Middle East interests, as one suspects may be some other international divisions (China v Russia, India v Pakistan, North v South Korea, etc.)?
Don't you ever consider that resolving the Sunni-Shiite conflict between Iran and the Arab countries is as critical, if not more than, a general Middle East peace as the Israeli-Arab-Iranian conflict?
Is the Sunni-Shiite quarrel somehow of use to our Middle East interests, as one suspects may be some other international divisions (China v Russia, India v Pakistan, North v South Korea, etc.)?
Don't you ever consider that resolving the Sunni-Shiite conflict between Iran and the Arab countries is as critical, if not more than, a general Middle East peace as the Israeli-Arab-Iranian conflict?
12
You make a valid point. It would be a very important happening.
But since that particular quarrel has been going-on and off since about 632 AD I don't see much hope of a resolution very soon.
No matter who tries to resolve it.
But since that particular quarrel has been going-on and off since about 632 AD I don't see much hope of a resolution very soon.
No matter who tries to resolve it.
2
Former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger's widely quoted remark on the Iraqi-Iranian war, 1980-1988, "It's a pity that both sides can't lose," has been our policy throughout the region, involving us directly into combat with one or the other Muslim forces there for almost a half century. It's intent was and has remained to divide Shiite and Sunni countries, and to militarily and politically strengthen Israel. And it's not a quote associated with what most of us have of a Nobel Peace Prize winner.
That "Divide and Conquer" philosophy nevertheless has worked for Israel. But for the U.S.A., not so much, as terrorists have at least the advantage of spontaneous generation.
For terrorism can recruit followers spontaneously who enlist only by making an easy logical inference from the news reflecting the callous Kissinger quote as the goal of our foreign policy. And contrary to what Defense Secretary James Mattis seems to believe, a war of annihilation destroys only the product of terrorist recruitment. It doesn't eradicate the roots ----the policy conditions and logic of Kissinger's policies still growing this evil weed. If we really want peace, we have to destroy the roots of terrorism that we fertilize.
That "Divide and Conquer" philosophy nevertheless has worked for Israel. But for the U.S.A., not so much, as terrorists have at least the advantage of spontaneous generation.
For terrorism can recruit followers spontaneously who enlist only by making an easy logical inference from the news reflecting the callous Kissinger quote as the goal of our foreign policy. And contrary to what Defense Secretary James Mattis seems to believe, a war of annihilation destroys only the product of terrorist recruitment. It doesn't eradicate the roots ----the policy conditions and logic of Kissinger's policies still growing this evil weed. If we really want peace, we have to destroy the roots of terrorism that we fertilize.
1
Let's not forget, and the NYT should check its own records, but Hillary Clinton, as far back as 2012, sent tens of millions to the so-called 'Syrian rebels', who were well known at the time to be al-Qaeda affiliates, in the start of the US push for regime change there. Further back in time, the US also funded the Taliban, and bin Laden, in an effort to thwart those 'godless' Soviets. We all know how that has turned out. So, there's plenty of blame to go around, but we should look in the mirror, as well. We are part of the problem.
18
If you check the record, you will find that it was Senator John McCain who pushed for the arming of rebel groups in Syria. In fact, he actually went over there, going through Turkey, and met with their leaders. As for the arming of the Taliban that was Reagan and don't forget "Charlie Wilson's War." Wilson was a Republican. I very much doubt that bin Laden was funded at any time, although his family was protected by G. W. Bush after 9/11.
1
What is your point?
The point is, in international relations, you often reap what you sow, in the way of blowback. The Times can point fingers all it wants at others who are indeed funding terrorists, as the Saudis have done, but we need to look at our own actions and correct them if we want to stop terrorism. Whether its us or our allies, giving them arms and weapons is just sowing the seeds of more terrorism - against us. Remember when the US used to send in the Peace Corps? And yes, the US did recruit bin Laden, helped to create the Taliban and indirectly created ISIS by helping our arch enemy, the perpetrators of 9-11, al-Qaeda. Criminal, if you ask me.
Having the explication of the players in fighting extremists is helpful in these terrible days of our 45th Presidency:
Qatar, accused by Trump of funneling money to the Muslim Brotherhood, is standing alone in a malign sea of Arabs, though our U.S. Forces Central Command air base in Doha is hosred by that hospitable to Americans country. Saudis, favourites of President Trump, are angry that Qatar has fostered ties with hostile groups, giving them airtime on Al Jazeera, Qatar's TV network.
Saudi Arabia is the olla podrida of the Middle East. Saudi-born terrorists attacked the United States on 11 September 2001, and yet today the Saudis are among President Trump's friendly allies. Go figure. The royal Saudis are like the Bourbons of pre-Revolutionary France. "Bandar Bush" (Prince Bandar bin Sultan al Saud (so wonderfully active in Washington's social whirl of the 1980s and 90s) is no longer holding power.
Iran - the natural enemy of Sunni groups like ISIS. In 1984 Iran was desigated state sponsor of terrorism by our State Department. We will be haring from Iran.
Russia is not in the mix of players who are defeating and defunding terrorists. Not yet.
Qatar, accused by Trump of funneling money to the Muslim Brotherhood, is standing alone in a malign sea of Arabs, though our U.S. Forces Central Command air base in Doha is hosred by that hospitable to Americans country. Saudis, favourites of President Trump, are angry that Qatar has fostered ties with hostile groups, giving them airtime on Al Jazeera, Qatar's TV network.
Saudi Arabia is the olla podrida of the Middle East. Saudi-born terrorists attacked the United States on 11 September 2001, and yet today the Saudis are among President Trump's friendly allies. Go figure. The royal Saudis are like the Bourbons of pre-Revolutionary France. "Bandar Bush" (Prince Bandar bin Sultan al Saud (so wonderfully active in Washington's social whirl of the 1980s and 90s) is no longer holding power.
Iran - the natural enemy of Sunni groups like ISIS. In 1984 Iran was desigated state sponsor of terrorism by our State Department. We will be haring from Iran.
Russia is not in the mix of players who are defeating and defunding terrorists. Not yet.
4
I agree with your conclusion.
In fact, I would go further. I would say that the US has no busines involving itself in ME politics at all. We don't understand their complexities and we can't begin to resolve their conflicts. Our actions since 9/11 have only widened them. We should not be selling weapons to the Saudis or Qatar, or anyone else in the region, because using those weapons will only increase conflict. Our military involvement should be severely limited, with the knowledge that most exercises of military force foster terrorism more than they deter it.
Let us go back to representing peaceful resolution of conflict, tolerance, and humanity, not futile and endless war.
In fact, I would go further. I would say that the US has no busines involving itself in ME politics at all. We don't understand their complexities and we can't begin to resolve their conflicts. Our actions since 9/11 have only widened them. We should not be selling weapons to the Saudis or Qatar, or anyone else in the region, because using those weapons will only increase conflict. Our military involvement should be severely limited, with the knowledge that most exercises of military force foster terrorism more than they deter it.
Let us go back to representing peaceful resolution of conflict, tolerance, and humanity, not futile and endless war.
39
I dont know - Trump claims to know everything about everything, better than anyone. He has a plan. a wonderful plan, the best plan in the world. He will end ISIS in 30 days. Which 30 days we aren't sure, but he will.
6
Favoring Saudi Arabia in American foreign policy has a long and somewhat sordid history. Notable in that history were G. H. and G. W. Bush, who pursued that country's royalty with the intense passion of a political romance. In return for granting sweetheart deals on oil, the Saudis were given arms deals on their terms, and gained access to chummy visits in the White House, the Texas ranch, and assorted Washington cocktail parties. All the factors that have kept that cozy relationship alive for decades are still in play with no end in sight.
28
To be fair, only President Obama has done something remotely fair as far as Middle East going all the way back to the Carter Administration. Don't get me wrong, I think President Carter is one of the better presidents in recent history but the late Zbigniew Brzezinski - as brilliant as he is in analyzing the balkan scenario - had a hand in the Afghanistan mess because of his anti-Russian stand. Then there was the Iran mess. By distancing the U.S. from the Sunnis and taking a neutral stand with the Shiite, Mr Obama is pulling back from the U.S. involvement in this sectarian fight that has lasted for thousands of years. From the humanitarian standpoint, I pray this and inter-religious warfares would stop one day but taking sides would not do it. The only side one can take is the human side
33
I'm no terrorism expert, but my impression is that there is a big difference between the type of terrorism supported by Qatar and Iran, and that supported by Saudi Arabia.
The "terrorist organizations" supported by Qatar and Iran generally do not attack the West - Europe and North America.
From what I have read there is a question whether the Muslim Brotherhood should be labelled a terrorist organization at all. And Hamas and Hezbollah are mostly anti-Israel groups.
As for who supports what in Syria, it seems no one has clean hands in that quagmire.
Saudi Arabia, however, with its support for Wahhabism and "sunni groups" indirectly supports terrorist organizations that attack the West.
Trump's failure to see this is in line with his failure to understand virtually anything.
The "terrorist organizations" supported by Qatar and Iran generally do not attack the West - Europe and North America.
From what I have read there is a question whether the Muslim Brotherhood should be labelled a terrorist organization at all. And Hamas and Hezbollah are mostly anti-Israel groups.
As for who supports what in Syria, it seems no one has clean hands in that quagmire.
Saudi Arabia, however, with its support for Wahhabism and "sunni groups" indirectly supports terrorist organizations that attack the West.
Trump's failure to see this is in line with his failure to understand virtually anything.
75
It sounds like each nation is acting in it's own interest, just as we should.
2
There is no choosing between a good terrorist and a bad one.the recent unfortunate events in london indicate a confused british policy and finding a solution to this menace will indeed be difficult
2
"Exaggerating or misrepresenting the misdeeds of Qatar and Iran, while giving the Saudis a free pass, will only benefit Saudi Arabia’s efforts to expand its regional influence."
But isn't that the whole point of the current US policy? Trump praises and lavishly supports the Saudi dictatorship, and denigrates Iran just after it impressed many with its hard fought presidential election. As you said, hypocrisies and contradictions abound.
But isn't that the whole point of the current US policy? Trump praises and lavishly supports the Saudi dictatorship, and denigrates Iran just after it impressed many with its hard fought presidential election. As you said, hypocrisies and contradictions abound.
14
Iran didn't give him a gold necklace and $100 million to his daughter. Nothing more to say!
2
Regarding Iran, we seem unable to get over the hostage taking. Yet if we consider the decades since the hostages were taken, in fact Iran at least freed the hostages, whereas in the genuine terrorist events that have happened since, hostages have been and are routinely murdered.
Iran is a large nation with a good reason to be wary of us. Obama tried to get us on a better footing. Sadly, we seem bound to reverse course and make the enmity between them and us larger again.
Too bad for us.
Iran is a large nation with a good reason to be wary of us. Obama tried to get us on a better footing. Sadly, we seem bound to reverse course and make the enmity between them and us larger again.
Too bad for us.
37
So when all is said and done, the point of this editorial is if Saudi Arabia gets a pass, then so should Qatar and Iran. ISIS trumps (no pun intended) terrorism, unless it is ISIS terrorism.
This is a rather short-sighted and myopic view in the Middle East in which the players can often change their stripes and in which events often change the course of history at lightening speed.
This is a rather short-sighted and myopic view in the Middle East in which the players can often change their stripes and in which events often change the course of history at lightening speed.
3
One of America's biggest, and non-confronted, problems for a very long time is the fact that the people deciding where we fight and if we fight and when we fight, and the resources needed to do those things have never served for one minute in our military services. Even today, I believe that there are few members of our so-called Congress who have been in the military, yet they decide where and when to send other people's children to fight and die. The Washington decision-makers find it too easy to add more troops in Afghanistan or any of the other countless places we put "boots on the ground", or start a new war in this place or that place. That is like hiring the local baker to repair your car. Yet even the Pentagon keeps asking for more funding to buy more hardware, hardware which in many cases is not even asked for nor wanted. But the Congress benefits because all that hardware is built in some Congressman's home district, but Congress has not carried a rifle, dug a foxhole or flown a bomber. Is it any wonder that we fight extremists while funding extremists?
38
I'm glad you mentioned the Saudi's support of Wahhabist madrasas throughout the world. I'll bet that Trump or Tillerson didn't bring up that subject on their recent trip to Saudi Arabia. I often think of how many Americans have been hurt or killed by terrorists from the countries covered by Trump's travel ban, and then think of how many of the 9/11 attackers came from Saudi Arabia. There's a huge disconnect in our foreign policy between actual threats and theater.
50
It does not take a genius to understand why the Middle East is a mess. First, take groups of nomads who codify a religion based on faith, prayer, charity, fasting and pilgrimage (5 pillars of Islam), then argue over succession of leadership and split into two different world views (Shi'a and Sunni). Now, divide the region into countries based on arbitrary rules of external colonial powers (Sykes-Picot agreement) with little concern for the existing groups (e.g. Kurds were split into 4 different "countries"). Then, put vast but not unlimited resources (fossil fuels) under the region and give small groups (e.g. House of Saud) within each region control over these funding sources, creating another inequality among these peoples. Finally, let other nations seek hegemony over the region as they scramble to control access to oil, the treasured resource.
It would be as miraculous if this chaos produces order as if you put all the parts of a modern jet airplane in a building and returned a day later to find they had self-organized themselves into a 777.
Neither physical science nor political science violates the second law of thermodynamics. Only entropy comes easily.
It would be as miraculous if this chaos produces order as if you put all the parts of a modern jet airplane in a building and returned a day later to find they had self-organized themselves into a 777.
Neither physical science nor political science violates the second law of thermodynamics. Only entropy comes easily.
25
What can we expect of a man while running for president didn't even know the difference between the Kurds and the Quds?
As the American saying goes, he is an inch deep and a mile wide. Nuance and understanding of highly complicated matters are and were never his forte, neither in foreign nor domestic policies.
As the American saying goes, he is an inch deep and a mile wide. Nuance and understanding of highly complicated matters are and were never his forte, neither in foreign nor domestic policies.
16
Based on the faux Government Statement of Qatar, I myself, suspect Russian meddling with the U.S. Allie. I think it would have to be a ‘state-led’ faux-government-communication to have been able to dupe one of our corporate American-media on a government-statement, who carefully verify for legal reasoning. Could there be another connection with Russia and the very accusations against Qatar of funding-terrorism with most Middle East Intelligence agencies?
Following ideas of former governments of Iran masking their troops as militia, is Putin also capable of creating Russian-front-groups in Qatar masked as terrorism-groups? Perhaps adopting the same organization-names that Qatar uses as faux-organization-names to handle security for Qatar’s Government financial transactions? Where, of course, then, it might lead some Intel agencies to believe that there is a government financial connection with these named-groups?
Following ideas of former governments of Iran masking their troops as militia, is Putin also capable of creating Russian-front-groups in Qatar masked as terrorism-groups? Perhaps adopting the same organization-names that Qatar uses as faux-organization-names to handle security for Qatar’s Government financial transactions? Where, of course, then, it might lead some Intel agencies to believe that there is a government financial connection with these named-groups?
This less than insightful opinion fails to mention the role of both Democratic and Republican administrations and endless members of Congress, past and present, whose livelihood depends on arms sales. With the advent of nuclear treaties, the only way to justify expenditures on building arms and selling arms is the never-ending defeat of terrorism.
11
"no Iranians were named as responsible when the administration in February published a list of 78 major terrorist attacks."
That is significant, compare that with all the terror attacks since 9/11, all those attacks were by ISIS or a Qaida sponsored by Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Pakistan is still giving safe havens to the Talibans and was hiding Bin Laden. Yet, Iran is listed as state sponsor of terrorism but not Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Pakistan.
This quote is from the Cato Institute: " Saudi government has been the principal financial backer of Afghanistan’ s odious Taliban movement since at least 1996. It has also channeled funds to Hamas and other groups that have committed terrorist acts in Israel and other portions of the Middle East. Worst of all, the Saudi monarchy has funded dubious schools and “charities” throughout the Islamic world. Those organizations have been hotbeds of anti-Western, and especially, anti-American, indoctrination. The schools, for example, not only indoctrinate students in a virulent and extreme form of Islam, but also teach them to hate secular Western values".
That is significant, compare that with all the terror attacks since 9/11, all those attacks were by ISIS or a Qaida sponsored by Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Pakistan is still giving safe havens to the Talibans and was hiding Bin Laden. Yet, Iran is listed as state sponsor of terrorism but not Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Pakistan.
This quote is from the Cato Institute: " Saudi government has been the principal financial backer of Afghanistan’ s odious Taliban movement since at least 1996. It has also channeled funds to Hamas and other groups that have committed terrorist acts in Israel and other portions of the Middle East. Worst of all, the Saudi monarchy has funded dubious schools and “charities” throughout the Islamic world. Those organizations have been hotbeds of anti-Western, and especially, anti-American, indoctrination. The schools, for example, not only indoctrinate students in a virulent and extreme form of Islam, but also teach them to hate secular Western values".
102
Over half of Iran's 75+ million citizens are under 30 years old and were not born at the time of the 1979 Hostage Crisis. Iran is an Islamic-democratic state with a constitution that does not restrict women to participate in public office.
Iran's human rights record has much room to improve. But the clear benefit of having a majority of young people under 30 years old and less than 12% over 55 years old, is that the future liberalization of Iran within an Islamic culture, is inevitable.
It is wise for Western nations to plan forward and avoid ostrasizing Iran when the Saudi Wahabi tradition and authoritarian monarchical state is unstable. Saudis' wealth class invested (park) hundreds of billions in Europe and America - buying-up minority positions in global enterprises and real esate in New York, London and Paris, within more secure off-shore countries.
Let us not forget the Kuwaiti Royal family's abandonment of Kuwait
after Iraq spear-headed an invasion. The Kuwaiti Royal family had much of its wealth offshore. The Iraq invasion induced the Kuwaiti King to leave for Saudi Arabia during hostilities. It was reported that during the early stage of the invasion the Kuwaiti King was considering a permanent abandonement of Kuwait. He would not have considered that option unless a sizeable portion of the Royal Family wealth were not invested off-shore.
The Kings and Sheiks of ME Petro Empires live in the shadow of revolution. We need to reboot Iranian policy.
Iran's human rights record has much room to improve. But the clear benefit of having a majority of young people under 30 years old and less than 12% over 55 years old, is that the future liberalization of Iran within an Islamic culture, is inevitable.
It is wise for Western nations to plan forward and avoid ostrasizing Iran when the Saudi Wahabi tradition and authoritarian monarchical state is unstable. Saudis' wealth class invested (park) hundreds of billions in Europe and America - buying-up minority positions in global enterprises and real esate in New York, London and Paris, within more secure off-shore countries.
Let us not forget the Kuwaiti Royal family's abandonment of Kuwait
after Iraq spear-headed an invasion. The Kuwaiti Royal family had much of its wealth offshore. The Iraq invasion induced the Kuwaiti King to leave for Saudi Arabia during hostilities. It was reported that during the early stage of the invasion the Kuwaiti King was considering a permanent abandonement of Kuwait. He would not have considered that option unless a sizeable portion of the Royal Family wealth were not invested off-shore.
The Kings and Sheiks of ME Petro Empires live in the shadow of revolution. We need to reboot Iranian policy.
81
Does the board expect Donald Trump to understand the nuances of middle east allegiances, different strains of Islam, and different policies for fighting or funding terrorism?
Yesterday, while texting a liberal friend in Oklahoma of all places, we were discussing names for a "Trump Doctrine" and I told her about the recent NYT article on conflicts of interest in Trump's financial dealings in the middle east.
I told her the Trump Doctrine could be better called "the golf course doctrine." It was a fascinating study on Trumpian conflicts of interest based on how many properties he has in Saudi Arabia and Dubai, versus Qatar.
Isn't that just dandy--under the cover of ISIS and fighting terror, Trump foments war by two countries where he DOES have properties on the one country he DOESN"T.
Trump is so callow he couldn't form a foreign policy if he were given the rules, the players, and locked up in a rubber room with no TV and no twitter.
Hapless at details, his business nose simply sniffs opportunity and acts accordingly.
Even his list of countries in the travel ban is based less on terrorism than on Trump's existing or potential ability to do business there.
This is what you get when you elect a corrupt businessman who's using the presidency to bolster his brand and views the world as his customers, not a set of geo-political powers.
Yesterday, while texting a liberal friend in Oklahoma of all places, we were discussing names for a "Trump Doctrine" and I told her about the recent NYT article on conflicts of interest in Trump's financial dealings in the middle east.
I told her the Trump Doctrine could be better called "the golf course doctrine." It was a fascinating study on Trumpian conflicts of interest based on how many properties he has in Saudi Arabia and Dubai, versus Qatar.
Isn't that just dandy--under the cover of ISIS and fighting terror, Trump foments war by two countries where he DOES have properties on the one country he DOESN"T.
Trump is so callow he couldn't form a foreign policy if he were given the rules, the players, and locked up in a rubber room with no TV and no twitter.
Hapless at details, his business nose simply sniffs opportunity and acts accordingly.
Even his list of countries in the travel ban is based less on terrorism than on Trump's existing or potential ability to do business there.
This is what you get when you elect a corrupt businessman who's using the presidency to bolster his brand and views the world as his customers, not a set of geo-political powers.
161
Obama, Clinton and Bush 'appeared to not understand' the differences between Islamic sects. I don't expect that Trump will be any better, unless the press start revealing the (commercial?) prejudices of our leaders.
4
Trump might not understand the nuances of the Middle East, but neither did Obama. He and Hillary created the present day mess of Syria and Libya. I am no Trump supporter, but he inherited an 8-year long nightmare. Obama is to be blamed.
3
I agree with you but keep in mind that Trump just rents his name to other investors in the Mid East. He is incapable of the risk analysis to actually invest himself.
3
Of the three major sponsors of terrorism - Iran, Qatar and Saudi Arabia - in the Middle East, Iran enjoys a better image in Europe, because the terrorist attacks on our soil have so far been committed by adherents of jihadism, who espouse the Saudi austere version of Sunni Islam - Wahhabism - the fountainhead of Islamist terrorism.
In fact the level of threat posed by adversaries is always perceived through the prism of geographical proximity and national interests. Iran is accused of state-sponsoring terrorism - supporting the Syrian regime, which is responsible for all atrocities and the influx of refugees to Europe; the Hezbollah, a Shia Islamist political and military group in Lebanon; Hamas and other Palestinian militants. Hezbollah and Hamas carry out an armed struggle against Israeli occupation and are responsible for countless attacks against Jewish targets. But they don't attack soft targets in Europe like ISIS.
It's obvious that there are arsonists and fire-fighters among the Qataris and Saudis, who gang up on Qatar for cooperating with Iran and embracing political Islam, the philosophy of the moderate Muslim Brotherhood. As long as the Sunnis don't settle their schism with the Shia majority Iran, ISIS et al have a purpose - to spread sectarian violence. It's America's fault to sell the Saudis and Qataris arms and make them staunch allies, emboldening them to engage in power struggle. The world needs to urge them to share power with all players in the region.
In fact the level of threat posed by adversaries is always perceived through the prism of geographical proximity and national interests. Iran is accused of state-sponsoring terrorism - supporting the Syrian regime, which is responsible for all atrocities and the influx of refugees to Europe; the Hezbollah, a Shia Islamist political and military group in Lebanon; Hamas and other Palestinian militants. Hezbollah and Hamas carry out an armed struggle against Israeli occupation and are responsible for countless attacks against Jewish targets. But they don't attack soft targets in Europe like ISIS.
It's obvious that there are arsonists and fire-fighters among the Qataris and Saudis, who gang up on Qatar for cooperating with Iran and embracing political Islam, the philosophy of the moderate Muslim Brotherhood. As long as the Sunnis don't settle their schism with the Shia majority Iran, ISIS et al have a purpose - to spread sectarian violence. It's America's fault to sell the Saudis and Qataris arms and make them staunch allies, emboldening them to engage in power struggle. The world needs to urge them to share power with all players in the region.
14
One group is clearly in need of our support: the refugees created by the unending violence in the Middle East. Instead of trying to determine which "side" to choose in these endless conflicts, the US might consider choosing the "side" of peace by providing billions for refugee resettlements instead of billions for armaments.
36
We don't need resettlement to the US of any more refugees. Provide assistance for them in their home countries!
2
I couldn't agree more.
The proper solution to Adolf Hitler would have been to eliminate him from power when he invaded the Sudetenland. That would have saved 6 million Jewish lives and 55 million lives in total. Resettling refugees could only ever have saved a tiny fraction of that.
President Macron has offered to broker an agreement between Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Iran. Now would be a good time to support him in this.
79
I wish him luck, but expect that he will be undermined by powerful US and Israeli forces.
3
It's also worth noting that most of the 9/11 attackers were Saudis, not Iranians or citizens of Qatar. After that attack we inexplicably went to war against Iraq (inexplicable unless we consider the desire of Cheney, Wolfawitz et al to 'get' Sadaam), but never held the Saudis accountable at all. It seems that oil and fancy royalty has long impressed those in DC.
180
Reply to Anne-Marie HIslop: Yes that's right and there's also the fact that Bush and Trump are in the Saudis pocket with their connections to and investments in oil (another significant reason for the invasion of Iraq) and properties, respectively.
5
and properties in the US
1
"It seems that oil and fancy royalty has long impressed those in DC."
You have to look no further than the Secretary of State.
You have to look no further than the Secretary of State.
1
Interesting to see the Editorial Board's reference to "Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups". The conflation of Palestinians with "terrorists" says volumes about the tilt the Times applies to its interpretation of circumstances in the Middle East. If across the decades the Times and other media had referred to the Palestinian resistance, reflecting the struggle by Palestinians against the appropriation of their lands and resources by foreign intruders. Branding Palestinians as "terrorists" is a rather ham-handed form of delegitimizing their efforts to reverse displacement. Given they confront the United Nations as the institutional architect of displacement, the United States as its principal military and financial supporter, and a flood of outsiders as the occupying agents it is hardly surprising Palestinians accept assistance where they can nor that they use the tactics they do. And of course there is an irony that many of the tactics they have come to rely on were used earlier by others to destabilize the British Mandate, paving the way for the UN-sanctioned dismemberment of Palestine. As long as the US government, the Times, and other apologists deny Palestinian resistance as the logical outcome of their own actions there will be little space for a peaceful outcome. This in no way diminishes the brutality, even cruelty, of Palestinian tactics but willful disregard of Palestinian (and Iranian) grievances condemns us to fruitless and dangerous interpretations.
129
"Interesting to see the Editorial Board's reference to "Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups". The conflation of Palestinians with "terrorists" says volumes about the tilt the Times applies to its interpretation of circumstances in the Middle East. "
The Times "conflation of Palestinian terrorist groups" with "terrorists" isn't a conflation: note the term terrorist. When innocent citizens are slaughtered in marketplaces, on buses—in the act of daily life—simply to make a political statement, that's terrorism. It's perfectly fair to question the actions of the Israeli government, but don't make the mistake of arguing that two wrongs make a right—or reveal a conspiratorial bias.
The Times "conflation of Palestinian terrorist groups" with "terrorists" isn't a conflation: note the term terrorist. When innocent citizens are slaughtered in marketplaces, on buses—in the act of daily life—simply to make a political statement, that's terrorism. It's perfectly fair to question the actions of the Israeli government, but don't make the mistake of arguing that two wrongs make a right—or reveal a conspiratorial bias.
2
If it talks like a terrorist, acts like a terrorist, and murders like a terrorist, it's a terrorist.
1
If the shoe fits.......
Terrorists they are indeed.
Terrorists they are indeed.
1
We allied with Saudi Arabia and looked away while they spread the theological underpinnings that would one day become ISIS. According to Frontline: "Wahhabism's explosive growth began in the 1970s when Saudi charities started funding Wahhabi schools (madrassas) and mosques from Islamabad to Culver City, California."
Wahhabism demonizes anyone who does not practice their strict version of Islam. Once a theology of intolerance and hate was created, ISIS took this ready made evil concoction to justify mass killing.
We had plenty of time to put pressure on Saudi Arabia to stop their financial support for the spread of this theology, but the genie is out of the bottle now.
Wahhabism demonizes anyone who does not practice their strict version of Islam. Once a theology of intolerance and hate was created, ISIS took this ready made evil concoction to justify mass killing.
We had plenty of time to put pressure on Saudi Arabia to stop their financial support for the spread of this theology, but the genie is out of the bottle now.
186
ISIS uses official Saudi school text books to teach hatred in Syria and Iraq.
Your comments on Iran are spot on. I am no apologist for Iranian misdeeds in the past but in deciding what diplomatic approach the US should take to Tehran, it would be worth remembering that the Iranian people, as opposed to the hardliners in the Iranian regime, have recently voted in favour of the moderate Rouhani government. Many Iranians embrace western culture in the privacy of their own homes and are desperate for their country to rejoin the international community after years of economic sanctions and the curtailment of people to people links. Deft diplomacy by the US and other western powers would encourage these green shoots of moderation to grow. Treating the country as a pariah runs the awful risk of becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.
243
All he'd have to do is read this article to understand at least some of the issues.
But the problem is, Trump doesn't read the NYT.
And even if he could, he couldn't make an intelligent decision about what to do, he's obviously not capable of strategic thought on those levels.
But the problem is, Trump doesn't read the NYT.
And even if he could, he couldn't make an intelligent decision about what to do, he's obviously not capable of strategic thought on those levels.
47
Trump has a very good brain. He doesnt need to read or listen to anybody else.
Trumps fault? Trump is messing our affairs up dangerously but this brief synopsis reviews decades of American malfecense in the Middle East. From Kennedy to Obama and Nixon to Trump both parties have contributed to this mess... as have our European allies
1
Oh and liberals have the vision that's going to save us all? Obama, Hilary, and Kerry added 10 fold to W's chaos.
Hypocrisy? The human race is steeped in it, and we here in the US are as complicit in it as any other country.
.
We fight terrorists while we ourselves commit acts of terrorism. We ally ourselves with terrorism-funding countries. We fight racism while we are racists. We preen ourselves with democratic trappings while we reject democratic principles. We laugh at other governments while ours is a circus run by a clown.
.
We fight terrorists while we ourselves commit acts of terrorism. We ally ourselves with terrorism-funding countries. We fight racism while we are racists. We preen ourselves with democratic trappings while we reject democratic principles. We laugh at other governments while ours is a circus run by a clown.
282
Maybe but, two wrongs still don't make a right.
It's not a secret that the seeds of modern Islamist extremism were sown jointly by the US, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan in Afghanistan during the war against the Soviet Union. Thereafter the scourge of radical Islam spread to the Middle East in the wake of the US led international war against al Qaida and Taliban coinciding with another US war against Iraq. Pakistan being the US front-line state in its Afghanistan war had all the opportunity now to turn Islamist terror into a potent of state policy which was emulated by the other Middle East countries. Since all the nations, US and its Arab allies on the one hand, and Russia and its Middle East allies have mixed record on fighting and funding the radical Islamist terror groups with subjective definitions of terrorism and selectively identifying the good/bad terrorists, they are all responsible for turning the international fight against terrorism into a failure. Since the whole world is exposed to the threat of terrorism today, it becomes a common fight for all. Unless a well coordinated international response with transparency and effective mix of military and nonmilitary strategy is conceived and collectively executed, there would perhaps be no respite from the frequent terror attacks around the world.
148
Then 'no respite from the frequent terror attacks around the world' it is!
Prof. Jai Prakash Sharma
"It's not a secret that the seeds of modern Islamist extremism were sown jointly by the US, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan in Afghanistan during the war against the Soviet Union"
= =
This is arrant idiocy, the war of Islam against the infidel and against its own schisms, and factions and sects, goes back to the very beginning at least to Ali, and Mohamed's succession; and there will be no cessation until Islam abandons the supremacy of Allah and the legacy and legitimacy of conversion by the sword, which is never, and abandons blasphemy as a secular crime, in lieu of reserving apostasy and heresy for divine post mortem punishment.
About the only useful Western policy is to arm all asides and build a high wall, to let these people sort it out as an ultimate cage fight, too bad about the civilians caught in the cross fire, maybe the imams and mullahs and theologians and caliphs and sultans will establish safe spaces for noncombatants, if Islam even recognizes of such, which is dubious
I offer though as an intermediary remediation, that the western rules of war, ie clearly demarcated combatants, and protected noncombatants, be invoked to establish that ALL irregular warfare is war crimes.
I am not waiting though, merely hoping.
This was is called The Lng War for a reason,
"It's not a secret that the seeds of modern Islamist extremism were sown jointly by the US, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan in Afghanistan during the war against the Soviet Union"
= =
This is arrant idiocy, the war of Islam against the infidel and against its own schisms, and factions and sects, goes back to the very beginning at least to Ali, and Mohamed's succession; and there will be no cessation until Islam abandons the supremacy of Allah and the legacy and legitimacy of conversion by the sword, which is never, and abandons blasphemy as a secular crime, in lieu of reserving apostasy and heresy for divine post mortem punishment.
About the only useful Western policy is to arm all asides and build a high wall, to let these people sort it out as an ultimate cage fight, too bad about the civilians caught in the cross fire, maybe the imams and mullahs and theologians and caliphs and sultans will establish safe spaces for noncombatants, if Islam even recognizes of such, which is dubious
I offer though as an intermediary remediation, that the western rules of war, ie clearly demarcated combatants, and protected noncombatants, be invoked to establish that ALL irregular warfare is war crimes.
I am not waiting though, merely hoping.
This was is called The Lng War for a reason,
Terrorism had killed less than 4,000 people on this country in the decades. We have much more important problems.
Why do we talk about it so much? We have a "solution" (massive military spending, foreign interventions, and civil rights loopholes) inn search of a problem (terrorism of a handy excuse for all of these things, politicians and global corporate mass media use fear to convince us to do what logic would avoid.
Why do we talk about it so much? We have a "solution" (massive military spending, foreign interventions, and civil rights loopholes) inn search of a problem (terrorism of a handy excuse for all of these things, politicians and global corporate mass media use fear to convince us to do what logic would avoid.
1
That so much irony went unnoticed on the news is a testament to how hypocritical the whole Gulf states diplomacy is.
Money is the only issue there.