Belief boys should be strong allows harsh treatment by parents teachers. They are not given kind verbals. Any weakness allows more harshness. This creates fear social/emotional distance. The aggressive/less supportive treatment creates high maintained layers stress-new thought-which take away real mental energy. More activity/stress relief; high muscle tension hurts handwriting/motivation; high stress/low social vocabulary hurts reading/motivation. When seeing stress as maintained layers this shows individual treatment greatly affects education and information age skills. When doing poorly given more ridicule/discipline by parents/teachers-love/honor conditional. Boys give up early must take on more strong posturing hurting them more. As girls/women we are given love/honor regardless. We are given much kind verbal support care. This creates much ease for learning low maintained layers high social vocabulary more feeling of protection/support and perhaps 5to6 times behavioral and verbal displays. This helps reading/writing/motivation communication skills fine motor skills. This support continues through adulthood. Now girls falsely seen as smarter and boys as dumb. Myth of genetics has allows boys/men to fail as a group. Now institutionally accepted to use verbal abuse/patronization to boys/men in school offices stores banks and media. We are taking over but at a terrible price. We must remove false genetic models from school and treat boys/girls with same kindness/support
3
Boys have emotions, but different than girls. Boys feel anger, competition and (later) lust. That's really about it. Not all boys but most. But, very important, that's not bad. Just different from girls. Again, not bad, just different
On what evidence are you basing your claim that boys only experience anger, competition, and lust?
20
@keith I'm around a lot of kids, and I haven't seen this. Maybe when they're older, the boys feel scared of showing emotions. They still HAVE the emotions.
7
@Grassfed Beef - agreed - in my observation, boys are trained from an early age - 'don't cry - be a man!' - 'toughen up!' - 'you have to fight for what you want!'
I used to work with a number of Indian colleagues - the lunch room was usually a place to chat with fellow teachers - unless it was all males - when I'd typically walk in to see six males eating lunch at the table and the loudest sound was chewing noises - silence ...
Why ? One colleague from India told me they never revealed personal details as it could be used against them in a highly competitive society
cricket ? 'aha ! oh yes whatsisname scored a century ! Jolly Good Hail Fellow Well Met !! Ha Ha Haa !!!' - but ask about any personal matters ? ... crickets, tumbleweeds, the sound of chewing ... silence ... dare not reveal ... !
Where is Homer when we talk of poetry? The oldest literary traditions were often poetry, and those stories told in verse weren't about fields of flowers. The British solders in the trenches of WWI were known for reading, reciting and writing poetry.
5
I read this piece of feminist PC dogma as far as this sentence: “Just as women’s studies classes have long examined the ways that gendered language undermines women and girls . . . ” and stopped. Then I rolled my eyes and once again wondered why I keep subscribing to the Times.
5
Huh? Since when is raising an emotionally stable young man a "feminist PC thing"? I mean, I know "gendered language" is rather an off-putting phrase, but still. Read the whole thing before judging, I'd suggest.
14
I don't get it. Why did you stop reading? Because you read a couple of facts? It's true that women's studies classes have examined the nature and impact of sexually prejudicial language, and it's true that gendered language undermines women and girls. Use of the word "fireman," for instance, sends girls the message that they're not allowed to dream of becoming fire fighters. That's just obvious. So it's literally like you're saying, "When I got to the part that says that they've been teaching, in math classes, that one plus one equals two, I rolled my eyes." What are you talking about?
18
Wow, dudes are so sensitive.
13
My son, who was ultimately diagnosed with non-verbal learning disorder seemed innately more unaware of his own emotions than either his older or younger sister. This especially concerned me because his father was the same way. I began naming his emotions as I saw them exhibited and accepting them, (though not always accepting the associated behavior). He and I named the emotions we saw in others. This helped a great deal although he still is limited. It really added wisdom and perception for his then 3 year old sister, who still benefits as an adult today.
9
I've heard many men who see themselves as traditionally masculine say that women are more emotional than men. They will describe themselves as "stoic" and "calm." They will claim this is biology.
But then when they watch sports, they will scream like lunatics if a stranger they've never met fails to get a basket or a run or whatever.
If someone cuts them off on the freeway, they yell and turn red.
And when it's time to visit grandma in the hospital, or go to a funeral, they state that "well I just don't like funerals."
I think this article has a lot to say.
But then when they watch sports, they will scream like lunatics if a stranger they've never met fails to get a basket or a run or whatever.
If someone cuts them off on the freeway, they yell and turn red.
And when it's time to visit grandma in the hospital, or go to a funeral, they state that "well I just don't like funerals."
I think this article has a lot to say.
26
@Reader The guy you describe sounds like a cartoon.
2
This article makes great points. I would add that the way boys are raised also affords some advantages that can be beneficial to girls, especially learning to shake it off when you get hurt or make a mistake and being allowed to compete against other people. Team sports are great for this.
4
Evolution has set up men to coalesce in groups and hunt or fight other men. Emotions may get in the way of this ancestral mission. By contrast women have been set up to be afraid in order to protect themselves and their children. They must beg men for portions of the hunt, arouse sympathy effectively not to be killed in men's fighting and show submissiveness to other females who compete against them for the resources men bring. So women need much emotional expression, and they are correctly prepared for this role.
It' would be great to get rid of this baggage, but it's not happening in the next 10,000 years. In fact, the movies and media reinforce the preternatural gender roles. Responsible parenting means preparing children not for wahat we would like, because they will be misfits. The children must be prepared for their ancestral societal roles: men to be strong and necessarily silent types and women to arouse sympathy effectively.
It' would be great to get rid of this baggage, but it's not happening in the next 10,000 years. In fact, the movies and media reinforce the preternatural gender roles. Responsible parenting means preparing children not for wahat we would like, because they will be misfits. The children must be prepared for their ancestral societal roles: men to be strong and necessarily silent types and women to arouse sympathy effectively.
2
This is very dubious, bordering on fabrication. Sources. There are many studies showing much more egalitarian social structure, with women sometimes hunting and men watching the community's children.
Gender roles are a recent construct born of affluence, the luxury of modern society, and religious attitudes.
Gender roles are a recent construct born of affluence, the luxury of modern society, and religious attitudes.
18
Sounds like a pop-lite version of what is actually known about human culture, history, and evolution. It doesn't even match up with what we know about bonobo/chimp behavior--one of our closest relations on the evolutionary scale.
11
Human emotion and gender stereotypes are decidedly complicated topics. In addition to the nature versus nurture question, I think there can be confusion about what constitutes good values and emotional responses. I think an important lesson is that we are not all emotionally alike, and that a good skill to have is to be able to interact with emotionally diverse people. Being "sensitive" means being attuned to other's feelings, and not, expressing emotions uncontollably (such as do some children and presidents). Being quiet can mean not being inconsiderate: not boring others with chatter or burdening others with emotional turmoil, or simply, offering an audience. One can be quiet and sensitive (eg "strong quiet type"). Being able to sit quietly without need for constant emotional support or social interaction can be an important skill.
It is of some concern however whether, as we increasingly teach machines to handle jobs not requiring emotion or complex communication (say negotiation), perhaps those jobs that require us to "be quiet" will lose importance.
It is of some concern however whether, as we increasingly teach machines to handle jobs not requiring emotion or complex communication (say negotiation), perhaps those jobs that require us to "be quiet" will lose importance.
1
Has anyone noticed parents' use of the term "buddy" to address their sons? Honestly, I sometimes wonder how old boys are when they learn their names. Also what's the message in this "term of endearment"? Is this little boy really his parents' buddy?
4
It isn't a term I would ever use. A working class/middle class, soccer dad, little league dad kinda thing. It strikes me a diminutive similar to "pal" of a previous generation. Still, it does give the tone of "peer" rather than of child.
2
I hear it all the time, and it's completely appropriate. I suggest you befriend a child sometime, you might find it educational. I assure you, boys learn their names right on time! And, if you ever talked with an actual child, you might learn that "buddy" works especially well with boys aged 7-11, because (1) by the time they get to that age, they just don't respond as well to being called "sweetheart" or "honey" or "darling" (or other similar "terms of endearment" implied by your question) and (2) NO ONE, Jan, calls someone else by name every time they address them, Jan -- in fact, that would be weird and sort of aggressive sounding, wouldn't it, Jan?
Also -- and this is just a suggestion -- you might consider actually reading the article, which points out clearly that treating boys like girls is inappropriate and damaging, since their capacity for abstract reasoning and executive function matures later than girls the same cohort (generally speaking - I'm sure there are some boys out there that would impress you!)
But, hey, thanks for the contribution! It's always refreshing to read ill-informed snobbish judgments of other people posed in the form of a question. I assure you, those parents are not confused about the status of who is the parent and who is the child. You shouldn't be, either -- nor should you concern yourself overmuch with the way other people talk to their children.
2
In either case, talking with might be better than talking to, for both parent and child.
I've always found it odd that baby boys and boys are always called "little man" from the moment they're born, but girls are not called women — in fact, they stay "girls" sometimes well into adulthood and even old age. Girls may benefit in some ways from more emotional language, but they're also infantilized and taught to be fearful, cautious, obedient and well-behaved above all.
18
This writer wrote, "Researchers believe that these discrepancies in fathers’ language may contribute to “the consistent findings that girls outperform boys in school achievement outcomes.”"
Hmm. Does the writer want use to accept the premis, "girls outperform boys in school achievement outcomes"?
Hmm.
I wondered if "girls outperformce" has something to do with 50 years of special programs for girls.
Maybe in the same way that the previous 50 years had special program for boys.
OJ
Hmm. Does the writer want use to accept the premis, "girls outperform boys in school achievement outcomes"?
Hmm.
I wondered if "girls outperformce" has something to do with 50 years of special programs for girls.
Maybe in the same way that the previous 50 years had special program for boys.
OJ
3
What special programs? Being allowed to attend elite colleges? Participate in sports? Why is access to the same programs as boys deemed 'speical' for girls.
10
You can say "hmmm" a lot, but without facts to back up your seemingly politically charged hypothosis (girls have received more educational attention to boys*), you're just speculating.
(*Also, a simply google search shows your hypothesis to be untrue.)
(*Also, a simply google search shows your hypothesis to be untrue.)
6
Something's got to change, because men have never been and are not currently emotionally capable of managing just about anything. Hence we have wars, violence, threats of war, and the like. Some of us are sick to death of it. If women carried on the way men do, instead of headlines that say "Racists march in Charlottesville" we'd see "Out-of-control women brandish tiki torches--very unfeminine."
11
I like talkative men.
10
"Why do we limit the emotional vocabulary of boys?"
The answer is just a few paragraphs earlier; because they'll never get a girl if they're too vulnerable.
"Women often say they want men to be emotionally transparent with them. But as the vulnerability and shame expert Brené Brown reveals in her book, “Daring Greatly,” many grow uneasy or even recoil if men take them up on their offer."
The answer is just a few paragraphs earlier; because they'll never get a girl if they're too vulnerable.
"Women often say they want men to be emotionally transparent with them. But as the vulnerability and shame expert Brené Brown reveals in her book, “Daring Greatly,” many grow uneasy or even recoil if men take them up on their offer."
10
Perhaps some of the hesitation involves "how" and "why" men express emotion. In my anecdotal experience, when vulnerability seemed unappealing, it was usually because it was part of an effort to move a relationship in a direction that was satisfying to them but not cognizant or perceptive about the partners wants and needs. It was a "tone deaf" emotionality that came across as controlling and sometimes manipulative. That is a long way from the toddler sandbox, granted, but that is where fostering genuine emotional intelligence must begin.
13
Didn't Haim Ginott's best-selling book "Between Parent and Child" give this same advice 50 years ago? I wonder why the columnist didn't mention him or the vast number of people who benefitted from the book. It's certainly readable and fascinating, and its message is just as valid now as it was then.
6
I was one of those who as a parent benefited and I trust our children did as well. It is gratifying to know his book has been reissued. His stepdaughter Mimi Ginott Kaough, the only child he actually raised, has nothing but praise for him and grieves his early death.
http://articles.latimes.com/1994-04-13/news/vw-45288_1_haim-ginott-s-books
http://articles.latimes.com/1994-04-13/news/vw-45288_1_haim-ginott-s-books
2
Baby Boomers tried to deal with this when we were young. Didn't work. Go to any department store. For infants, newly born, there are "girl clothes" and "boy clothes" and you can clearly see the differences. Yellow seems to be the only progress that was made -- it's neutral but less available. It's still pink and puppies for girls and blue and trucks for boys. As NEWBORNS. Is it any wonder, then, that language towards kids hasn't really changed? That the toys are mostly the same as they grow as they were for my generation going back to the 50s?
Music, art, dance, literature -- not important. Baseball, soccer, swimming, football, hockey -- very important. Does that make for balance with kids? Naw, but who cares, ya know? If we want to look at how we talk to kids, we need to look again at values about gender. An entire generation ago we tried that but I don't think we succeeded -- except that we ought now to have had a female President. She was robbed by the old boys in two countries who represent everything bad about "masculinity" and being unconscious. And millions of people think is this is just fine. As long as that's the situation, good luck with language distinctions.
Music, art, dance, literature -- not important. Baseball, soccer, swimming, football, hockey -- very important. Does that make for balance with kids? Naw, but who cares, ya know? If we want to look at how we talk to kids, we need to look again at values about gender. An entire generation ago we tried that but I don't think we succeeded -- except that we ought now to have had a female President. She was robbed by the old boys in two countries who represent everything bad about "masculinity" and being unconscious. And millions of people think is this is just fine. As long as that's the situation, good luck with language distinctions.
23
@Jeanette:
Ehh... Let me get this straight...
Because a few members of the Baby Boom generation (born 1946-1965) tried to degender the English language and failed to do so, ergo, no other U.S. generation can possibly succeed where the mighty Boomers failed? ... Wow.
Speaking of language bias, your word choice casts the Boomers as the most incredible beings to ever walk the face of the earth; hence, no future humans can possibly succeed in any endeavor which the Boomers tried and failed.
This type of self-worshiping claptrap by Baby Boomers about themselves -- in actuality, an overwhelmingly conservative generation renowned for their ruthless narcissism, rampant consumerism, and economic destruction -- is precisely why other generations roll their eyes and absolutely loathe them.
Can you imagine if the *real* Greatest Generation (born during the Jazz Age) who endured the Great Depression and fought against Nazi Germany had a similar mindset as the Baby Boomers: "Well, gee, we lost the first battle, so we might as well just give up entirely on the war and let the forces of darkness take over the planet."
In retrospect, perhaps the attempts to degender the English language failed precisely because it was the Baby Boomers who attempted it.
3
I am the grandparent of a long-haired boy (his choice) and always laugh at the way the tone of voice people use with him changes when they realize that he is a boy. They initially approach by cooing in a high-pitched voice. When he (or I when he was younger) remarks that he is a boy, the pitch drops and the cooing "Hello Sweetie" changes to a more abrupt "Hey buddie!"
I live in a community in which I am confident that the people involved would uniformly deny that they treat boys and girls differently.
I live in a community in which I am confident that the people involved would uniformly deny that they treat boys and girls differently.
23
How can we change this? How about just leave it alone. Please allow me, as a proud father of three, to love and enjoy my children equally, but for different reasons and in different ways. I talk to and interact with them differently because they are different. God made them different and that's OK with me.
5
Are you afraid to be self-reflective about how you speak to your children? I mean, aren't you interested to know whether there is some way you could improve their chances in life by slightly changing the way you interact with them? God made them different, yes, but God did not create the social patterns and norms that inform your customs. What if the customary ways of parenting you learned are undermining them? There's certainly no harm in getting a second opinion, or in stopping to consider the norms you've never considered before. Right?
10
I've been hoping that someone would articulate the views expressed in this column. The next time you're in a group of parents and their children, check out the ways most of the adults interact with small children and the difference in the ways they speak to girls and boys. They tend to use a much gentler, more engaging tone with girls, and are more likely to ask them questions about themselves and respond and add to what the girls say. If small girls seem shy or timid in a large group, adults are likely to express sympathy or gently try to encourage them. With boys, adults tend to use a louder, harder, less engaging tone and often ask questions in a challenging way or (and men are more likely to do this) make jokes or tease them in ways that they often don't understand.
All this seems to have improved over the past 20 years or so, especially with younger parents, but it's still the general pattern, especially with many men.
It's a great way to make boys less able to connect with other people.
All this seems to have improved over the past 20 years or so, especially with younger parents, but it's still the general pattern, especially with many men.
It's a great way to make boys less able to connect with other people.
7
Ugh... could the NYT please stop running these joke articles. Believe it or not, men are not all emotionally stunted, and cherry-picking a couple children's books, poorly interpreting their significance, and inflating their importance doesn't change that.
5
view. Sounds like someone didn't read the article. Nowhere does it say "all men" are anything, and indeed, the conclusions expressed in the article (unlike your criticisms) are founded in scientific research. Ask yourself why you're so hostile to science, and to conclusions that do not comport with your unexamined world
3
Yeah I agree with this comment. I'm a heterosexual man and I have better taste in clothes than do many women! Also, I'm a lot more considerate and thoughtful than a lot of women I know, who are surprisingly rude and selfish.
It all starts with that silly little pink bow on female children in the nursery.
11
A very interesting article. I've survived a mini-avalanche and other harrowing experiences in the mountains, all the while staying calm. After a major surgery, I could barely climb a flight of stairs but one year later I was climbing 3800m peaks. I consider myself masculine and strong, a little like my stoic father, not a phony macho type. At the same time, I'm a good listener and can tear up while watching a sad movie. Perhaps our real mistake is "either-or" thinking. Men can be sensitive AND strong. And there is a time to be sensitive, and a time to be strong.
17
I think being sensitive is being strong. Congrats on making it through all the excitement.
5
I think we recognize these complexities more in ordinary (caring, loving) daily life than we do in our theories. I value expertise, but good science is narrow, and it takes a long time to get truly significant results for human action. And psychology and sociology have a huge replication crisis when it comes to these matters. Further, in the universities, the issues about gender differences are decided ideologically rather than scientifically--and they are not permitted to be debated.
So I think that while staying abreast of the science and cultural politics is appropriate, I also think that caring, loving relationships, and writing like this that has multiple kinds of sources, have important roles to play. People learn and adapt, and they have to make judgments in novel situations. They have to know when to be sensitive and when to be strong and when to to mix it up in just the right way. There is no actual science of that.
So I think that while staying abreast of the science and cultural politics is appropriate, I also think that caring, loving relationships, and writing like this that has multiple kinds of sources, have important roles to play. People learn and adapt, and they have to make judgments in novel situations. They have to know when to be sensitive and when to be strong and when to to mix it up in just the right way. There is no actual science of that.
2
-Say to boys: “I can see that you’re upset,” or ask them, “What are you feeling?”- It is deeply disheartening to see how striking limited is the professional insight into boys' psychology. 'Let's talk about our feelings' will never cut it, not that it hasn't been tried. Until something new comes along boys (and then men) will continue to be put down and punished for who they are.
8
Agree. Better questions: "Are you frustrated?" Or "Looks like you're frustrated, what's going on?" Certain questions and words are safer.
2
@F Morris The question 'What are you feeling?' is intrusive & arrogant unless you're the person's therapist, being paid to ask such questions.
We've been raising men based on traditions from the frontier, a cultural adhesion embodied best in figures like Clint Eastwood and John ("Talkin' words is fer wimmin") Wayne.
Evolution has given us males adapted for hunting and warfare. There's no longer much of a question about it. But the particular form it takes is shaped by culture and it needn't be brutal or stupid.
It's hard for Western men to grasp the fact that the generals of Ancient Greece, on the night before a battle, would get together and write poems. Or that the Japanese kamikaze pilots of World War II would leave behind sentimental objects like dolls or locks of hair, wrapped in a paper with a brief poem written on it.
Marcus Aurelius was not only a Roman emporer but battled invading tribes from the north -- while writing his famous "Meditations," a philosophical tract.
Our conception of masculinity is very narrow and very dangerous. For Americans, writing poetry or philosophy -- or even being too literate -- is like having one foot in fairydom. Sad. Very sad.
Evolution has given us males adapted for hunting and warfare. There's no longer much of a question about it. But the particular form it takes is shaped by culture and it needn't be brutal or stupid.
It's hard for Western men to grasp the fact that the generals of Ancient Greece, on the night before a battle, would get together and write poems. Or that the Japanese kamikaze pilots of World War II would leave behind sentimental objects like dolls or locks of hair, wrapped in a paper with a brief poem written on it.
Marcus Aurelius was not only a Roman emporer but battled invading tribes from the north -- while writing his famous "Meditations," a philosophical tract.
Our conception of masculinity is very narrow and very dangerous. For Americans, writing poetry or philosophy -- or even being too literate -- is like having one foot in fairydom. Sad. Very sad.
16
Poetic expression can take many forms. Consider "rap" and hip-hop.
Or this (viking age skaldic poetry):
"The destroyer of the Scots fed the wolves: he trod on the eagle's evening meal [of corpses]. The battel-cranes flex over the rows of the slain; the beaks of teh birds of prey were not free from blood; the wolf tore wounds and waves of blood surged against the ravens' beaks."
(from trs AP Smyth, Warlords and Holy Men, London 1984)
Manly?
Emotional displays can take many forms.
Emotional intelligence means being attuned to social circumstances, communicating effectively, and keeping a thick skin as necessary.
Or this (viking age skaldic poetry):
"The destroyer of the Scots fed the wolves: he trod on the eagle's evening meal [of corpses]. The battel-cranes flex over the rows of the slain; the beaks of teh birds of prey were not free from blood; the wolf tore wounds and waves of blood surged against the ravens' beaks."
(from trs AP Smyth, Warlords and Holy Men, London 1984)
Manly?
Emotional displays can take many forms.
Emotional intelligence means being attuned to social circumstances, communicating effectively, and keeping a thick skin as necessary.
1
If you can't get boys to like lit then you're not teaching it right. I'm a high-school teacher and the teenage boys respond better to Shakespeare, Hemingway, Orwell, etc., than the girls. Way more serious questions from them. The girls 'perform' only because they're so narrowly focused on marks. What are you doing so badly? Maybe your approach is rigged against the boys.
9
I wonder if the female students would be more engaged if the literature portrayed more female characters and female stories. I wonder how/if the male students would respond differently to stories that were not male-centric (like Shakespeare, Hemingway, and Orwell). Just food for thought before making assumptions about gendered learning.
6
Some people, believe it or not, read beyond gender.
No, that has nothing to do with it, at all. That is a very old analysis that has been only somewhat helpful. Shakespeare and early Hemingway offer lots of rich, sympathetic female perspectives. Orwell is mostly political and abstract. And this lack of interest in the girls, this is not my view only. All the teachers—Science, Math, French—agree: the boys are interested, but they won't work; the girls will work, but it's Iike pulling teeth getting them interested.
2
All my life, all around me, I've seen more emotionally repressed than emotionally healthy men. And how they cling to their chains even as they struggle to have the relationships, health, and happiness everyone deserves. I think I'll go down for a dirt nap without ever seeing their liberation movement, and that makes me sad.
8
I'm a chaplain in a hospital. This article reminds me so much of my training during CPE (clinical pastoral education). Life is really about interpersonal relationships. There is nothing outside of relationships, we're all connected.
The movements we use as parents are exactly the same movements we use as chaplains; first we EMPTY ourselves of any desire to fix or to rescue. This in itself provides a safe space for our patient/child to "tell us their story". We listen, with the ear of our heart. Here's what is occurring - as we listen, our patient/child begins to EMPTY themselves in story, and we become INFILLED with their story. Having listened, I can now acknowledge them and respond. I can infill them with my story. This is life - breathing in and breathing out - emptying and infilling.
What happens as a result of these "more meaningful" conversations is that we both change. We become transformed. Having emptied myself and allowed you to touch me with your story, I am a new person because your story has infilled me. And the same is true of the other.
We must all learn to simply "come along side and stand with" each other.
The movements we use as parents are exactly the same movements we use as chaplains; first we EMPTY ourselves of any desire to fix or to rescue. This in itself provides a safe space for our patient/child to "tell us their story". We listen, with the ear of our heart. Here's what is occurring - as we listen, our patient/child begins to EMPTY themselves in story, and we become INFILLED with their story. Having listened, I can now acknowledge them and respond. I can infill them with my story. This is life - breathing in and breathing out - emptying and infilling.
What happens as a result of these "more meaningful" conversations is that we both change. We become transformed. Having emptied myself and allowed you to touch me with your story, I am a new person because your story has infilled me. And the same is true of the other.
We must all learn to simply "come along side and stand with" each other.
7
For those who might be interested a good read on this, though a bit dated, is Raising Cain: Protecting the Emotional Life of Boys.Written from the perspective of child psychologists, they do a pretty good job of illustrating how much gender roles, whether actively or subliminally enforced, have shaped the way boys - and ultimately men - behave.
1
The negative responses here prove a point made early in the article--that both genders are deeply uncomfortable with idea of emotionally aware men. We'd prefer to preserve the status quo (including domestic violence, rape culture, glorification of war, etc.) rather than work towards a cultural change that would benefit us all.
Some responders allude to the personal drama associated with some women's expressiveness, and wonder why we would want males to act in the same way. In my view, the article advocates for emotional awareness, not emotional excess. How could we, as a society, lose from teaching all of our children to be in touch with, and capable of managing, their feelings? Feelings are like so much lava in a volcano, exploding and causing a lot of damage when suppressed.
I was drawn to this article because of my work as a therapist for combat vets. Most of these macho guys are lonely, saddened by the fact that they have no real friends and/or no meaningful contacts with their grown children. Much of my work with them is remedial, focusing on what the article suggests (i.e., learning to recognize feelings that the culture teaches them to suppress, and to deal with them in an appropriate way). When such changes are made, these guys are astounded by the positive feedback they get from partners and others. It's life-changing, and they vow never to go back. Most of them wish they hadn't been told "big boys don't cry" in the first place.
Some responders allude to the personal drama associated with some women's expressiveness, and wonder why we would want males to act in the same way. In my view, the article advocates for emotional awareness, not emotional excess. How could we, as a society, lose from teaching all of our children to be in touch with, and capable of managing, their feelings? Feelings are like so much lava in a volcano, exploding and causing a lot of damage when suppressed.
I was drawn to this article because of my work as a therapist for combat vets. Most of these macho guys are lonely, saddened by the fact that they have no real friends and/or no meaningful contacts with their grown children. Much of my work with them is remedial, focusing on what the article suggests (i.e., learning to recognize feelings that the culture teaches them to suppress, and to deal with them in an appropriate way). When such changes are made, these guys are astounded by the positive feedback they get from partners and others. It's life-changing, and they vow never to go back. Most of them wish they hadn't been told "big boys don't cry" in the first place.
19
Thank you for the work you do.
2
Why do I always forget: "Don't read the comments! Don't read the comments!"
5
FYI women's studies classes have long taught that gender stereotypes hurt everyone
5
How foolish to think a very limited sample supports their conclusions. Way too simple and how about those many who have no males in their lives.
3
So many of the hostile comments seem to be from people, mostly men (?), who seem to have taken a “headline“ view of the article, somewhat in the nature of “Men Should Be More Like Women” or something like that. That’s not what the headline is, really. The "headline" is more like "Surprisingly, in general, boys are more emotionally sensitive than girls." This does not mean that boys can’t like toy trucks more than they like dolls. It’s not about turning boys into girls, and men into women.
The article proposes that parents’ attempts (by mothers, too) to make their little boy into a “man” are misguided, even if well intended. In the end such parenting techniques may harm the girls as much as the boys. Or is the argument that little girls/women are perfect? That’s not said, although some commenters seem to see that as the inescapable conclusion and practical outcome.
The suggestion from the article is that there might be some better ways to get better (happier) results for girls and boys, for people, and for society.
How about if we consider that male sensitivity, wrongly stifled, may sometimes lead to generalized hostility and anger, and frustration? Now that is ultimately dangerous, as we know, not just to the man who has such feelings, but to women, and to us all.
No one wants to see a bunch of people, regardless of sex, constantly weeping or gnashing teeth, or emoting... The question is how to make the world we live in a somewhat better place, for all of us.
The article proposes that parents’ attempts (by mothers, too) to make their little boy into a “man” are misguided, even if well intended. In the end such parenting techniques may harm the girls as much as the boys. Or is the argument that little girls/women are perfect? That’s not said, although some commenters seem to see that as the inescapable conclusion and practical outcome.
The suggestion from the article is that there might be some better ways to get better (happier) results for girls and boys, for people, and for society.
How about if we consider that male sensitivity, wrongly stifled, may sometimes lead to generalized hostility and anger, and frustration? Now that is ultimately dangerous, as we know, not just to the man who has such feelings, but to women, and to us all.
No one wants to see a bunch of people, regardless of sex, constantly weeping or gnashing teeth, or emoting... The question is how to make the world we live in a somewhat better place, for all of us.
23
I read the article and it is about treating males more like females.
Q:The question is how to make the world we live in a somewhat better place, for all of us.
A: Love... the verb. Love always seeks the good of the other.
A: Love... the verb. Love always seeks the good of the other.
2
I'm surprised by the negativity towards this article. The idea that parents and society at large nurture emotional well-being in girls and women and suppress emotions in men rings 100% true to my life. I'm 27, and I've been in therapy now for 3 1/2 years trying to essentially unf&*k the masculinity I learned from my deceased father. Until about 2 years ago I didn't know that I HAD feelings, let alone that those feelings actually meant anything. That my feelings were important and worth listening to. I was depressed my entire childhood, because I learned--insidiously--that boys and men don't ask for help. They deal with problems on their own. And I think my father thought the same thing.
I was depressed most of my life. I believe my dad was too. But nobody saw it as depression, they saw it as being manly.
I was depressed most of my life. I believe my dad was too. But nobody saw it as depression, they saw it as being manly.
27
'Don't cry - be a man.'
Much heard throughout my childhood. Repress those feelings. Men don't show vulnerability.
Now I fear such training leads to bottled-up feelings of inchoate rage - and explosions of frustration we might describe as terrorist attacks today.
Much heard throughout my childhood. Repress those feelings. Men don't show vulnerability.
Now I fear such training leads to bottled-up feelings of inchoate rage - and explosions of frustration we might describe as terrorist attacks today.
10
Spot on. Author John Lee talks about these costs in his book, "The Flying Boy" -- which really gets to the heart of what it's like for boys who feel abandoned when the people they look up to fail to reflect or value their emotional world. Glad you're finding the support to regain what you lost.
2
Frank--I think you've nailed it, the rage that comes out of frustration and desperation at being treated and raised in a way that's self- and life-alienating. Thanks for your insightful post.
4
I recall hating "Guess How Much I Love You" as an exercise in one-upmanship. Every time the child would say how much he loved the father figure, the bigger, stronger rabbit would outdo him. (Oh, yeah? well I love you as high as I can jump and that's about four times as high as you .... was the implication.
7
Thank you. I grew up with a father who was a very resilient man, who worked with heavy machinery. I attended Brooklyn Technical High School with 6000 techie boys. I attended competitive Cooper Union School of Engineering.
Now, in my seventies, I am still trying to become more sensitive and caring.
I think that humor can help us to let go of our need to dominate and control.
=========================================================
Now, in my seventies, I am still trying to become more sensitive and caring.
I think that humor can help us to let go of our need to dominate and control.
=========================================================
9
Rape rates are at epidemic levels. One in 4 female college students is raped or sexually assaulted. Domestic violence is epidemic with women & children the main victims. Every daya the news reports yet another case of a man killing his whole family. All over the USA men with guns & assault weapons shoot up theaters, grade schools, churches, ball games, concerts. The US president brags about sexually assaulting women & seeks to destroy Planned Parenthood. Porn, increasing vulgar & violent, now serves as sex education and males now demand increasingly perverse, degrading & painful acts from young women. Rapists like Cosby go free.
English has over 200 derogatory words & sexualized slurs for females, but few derogatory words against males.
Woman are underpaid, undervalued, discriminated against, viewed as subhuman objects existing only for male titillation & gratification. Girls & women are nowhere safe from male violence & sexual violence. Now women are told they must share women's spaces with delusional men who think they are women & accept delusional men's definition of womanhood.
Under the global patriarchy, men run Congress, governments, militaries, religions, industries, economics, cultures, corporations, health care, energy systems, the burqa countries. Men have created a world of perpetual warfare & violence, including brutal violence against women. And yet the comments here are largely men whining about how put upon males are. Privileged whiners.
English has over 200 derogatory words & sexualized slurs for females, but few derogatory words against males.
Woman are underpaid, undervalued, discriminated against, viewed as subhuman objects existing only for male titillation & gratification. Girls & women are nowhere safe from male violence & sexual violence. Now women are told they must share women's spaces with delusional men who think they are women & accept delusional men's definition of womanhood.
Under the global patriarchy, men run Congress, governments, militaries, religions, industries, economics, cultures, corporations, health care, energy systems, the burqa countries. Men have created a world of perpetual warfare & violence, including brutal violence against women. And yet the comments here are largely men whining about how put upon males are. Privileged whiners.
17
This is patently ridiculous. Where's the list of 200 derogatory words? I only know a few, which means I must have missed one of the misogyny lectures on my way to being an oppressor.
I never understand that sort of logic: Things are worse for women so never talk about men. Absolutely absurd.
If you want to destroy the patriarchy, you actually have to talk and change the way society thinks about masculinity. Just changing the way society thinks about women, alone, won't get us far. There wasn't a single issue you listed that wouldn't be improved by having a more nuanced and wholesome view of masculinity.
If you want to destroy the patriarchy, you actually have to talk and change the way society thinks about masculinity. Just changing the way society thinks about women, alone, won't get us far. There wasn't a single issue you listed that wouldn't be improved by having a more nuanced and wholesome view of masculinity.
14
Talk lL you want, those you wish to change are not listening, nor should they!
This is pretty thin gruel. Apparently, cherrypicking results that agree with the "thesis" of the author.
Great example of confirmation bias.
Great example of confirmation bias.
7
Can you suggest some other studies we might read as well?
3
Such are almost always biased, and almost impossible to run properly. They are waste.
1
Andrew, I don't know how your parents interacted with you but evidentally you feel a void for some reason in where you are today as a result of the way your parents each interacted with you. In my world today my grandaugher is spoken to and challenged with experiences identical to my grandson's environment. Let's try hard not to femenize our boys. There is a difference with men and women and we need to remember that to avoid too many weak men in the world.
1
What exactly does "femenize [sic] our boys" mean, scavalli?
2
I think this article is simply saying we need to help and encourage our boys to be in touch with their emotions and that being in touch with their emotions doesn't make them any less masculine. In my eyes and in the eyes of almost all the women I know, a sensitive man is a much more desirable husband, father, friend, brother etc then the man who pretends his emotions don't exist and is basically an unfeeling stone.
9
This is a sweeper, strong emotions when uncontrolled are damaging to everyone. Many females suffer from this, one killed herself over her grandfather having died.
2
In addition to aculturation differences, might there also be physiological and neurological differences? How wrong would it be, within the bounds of socially acceptable behavior, to let kids grow up to be themselves? And let's not underestimate peer pressure, since it seems to overtake adult guidance in early adolescence.
3
There are biological and emotional differences between males and females at all ages. While it is important to raise boys who care about others and their feelings, the goal of doing away with gender identity altogether is absurd.
4
Where in this piece is there anything that indicates "doing away with gender identity altogether," Ricardo de la O?
7
Evolutionarily speaking, males are all but irrelevant in sexually- reproducing animals. Males have readily expendable sex cells that can be spread far and wide, for decades. In contrast, females have a short window for reproduction, with at least a year's mandatory wait between gestations. Males thus have widespread competition for a limited number of reproductive opportunities (very limited, if one male manages to establish a monopoly). Thus, it isn't an irrationality that millennia of human evolution have established the requirement (or the desire) to prepare male offspring for battle (ultimately, for status, in its many forms, and all the benefits it offers). As for men and emotions, we don't necessarily groom males to be emotionless (in modern Western society. I can't speak for anything else), but rather to stick close to reality with them. Guys have a lot more to lose from being wrong (such as in irreparable loss of status, or, ultimately, death in ignominy and without offspring), so the guarded, emotionally distant man becomes a smart idea. A guy that flies off the handle at everything and anything won't win himself a mate, and such an irate figure risks drawing the ire of a male that is bigger, stronger, or more powerful than he is (and the physical or social consequences that result). Empathetic and overly emotional men and women can't turn on a dime and change their actions as soon as the situation changes, its just that this hurts men more than it does women.
AT least a year's mandatory wait beetween geststions? This is not so.
1
If any of this were true, white, middle class American men would be far better dressed. Baseball cap, stained white T shirt, grubby shorts. If being a man were all about getting women to notice you and give you a chance to reproduce with them, then our most powerful men would not wear stained white T shirts. There is just nothing sexy about that, sorry. Come up with a theory that explained the T shirts. You know, animals don't wear clothes at all. Yes, we're animals, but we are pretty weird as animals go. Men and women exist in every society on earth but the relationships between them are different in every society on earth. In some societies women have more power, in some less, and the requirements for men to be considered marriageable also differ significantly. If we were simply animals trying to reproduce, one could expect gender relations to be fairly stable across culture. That is not the case, so I don't see what your theory adds.
1
What if societies that have many emotional young men are the types of societies that typically topple or turn? What if there are perfectly good reasons on the whole, even if you feel it is strange for the individual?
1
Where is any indication of such societies, Jake? And, for the record, what does "toppling and turning" mean in your lexicon?
3
This article isn't about raising "emotional" young men--it's about interacting more with boys from infancy on and treating their experiences and feelings as valuable. Feelings are a way of sensing the world and relationships; if kids are cut off from their feelings, they're cut off from parts of themselves and ways of connecting with others.
1
Poor boys, it's their turn to be at the bottom of the Totem Pole.
But boys can take it. They always have. Girls can be "special" boys are just the grunts that need to do what they have to do and shut up about it. I think it makes boys stronger. The coddling of girls by their fathers especially makes them into princesses. Fine if your father is rich.
But boys can take it. They always have. Girls can be "special" boys are just the grunts that need to do what they have to do and shut up about it. I think it makes boys stronger. The coddling of girls by their fathers especially makes them into princesses. Fine if your father is rich.
This is nonsense.
Nature is real, Roles are real. Embracing them is natural. Modernism, is looking to reclassify things differently. CS Lewis had a great quote on this https://youtu.be/Lgcd6jvsCFs
Regards
Nature is real, Roles are real. Embracing them is natural. Modernism, is looking to reclassify things differently. CS Lewis had a great quote on this https://youtu.be/Lgcd6jvsCFs
Regards
Boys and girls are equal and different. It's really, really, really ok to acknowledge that.
City of Madrid, Spain, now made it punishable by penalty to be caught "man-spreading" at the city's mass transit transportation vehicles, starting with metro.
How is that so many of men natural, evolutionary-forces based behavior (here keeping the temperature of sperm producing organ 2 to 4 degree Celsius lower than the rest of the body) undesirable, criminal, or "expression of dominance", "micro-aggression", etc.?
How is that so many of men natural, evolutionary-forces based behavior (here keeping the temperature of sperm producing organ 2 to 4 degree Celsius lower than the rest of the body) undesirable, criminal, or "expression of dominance", "micro-aggression", etc.?
10
Oh, come. A person can't learn to recognize and control his evolutionary reflexes for 20 minutes out of politeness to another member of society?
8
"How is that so many of men natural, evolutionary-forces based behavior (here keeping the temperature of sperm producing organ 2 to 4 degree Celsius lower than the rest of the body) undesirable, criminal, or "expression of dominance", "micro-aggression", etc.?"
Simple. It's just plain rude.
Simple. It's just plain rude.
2
By the extension of your logic, even rape should not be considered criminal or undesirable, since it is also a "natural", "evolutionary" tactic of no-good male animals to propagate their genes and/or subjugate females.
5
Just quit telling kids silly things like boys don't cry, boys don't like pink, this and that is a girl thing. And at the same time quit excusing them when they do "boy" things. Make them own up to their emotions, but also clean up their own mess. Do not equate insensitivity with masculinity. Expect the little boy to have cravings for fun thins girls do. Don't shame him if he does. Little boys can like to play hairdresser and it doesn't mean they're gay. They can envy the sister's doll's pram. Make him know that it is ok if they do. Tell him he'll make a great father one day. That he has the eye for aesthetics. Don't drag him off to the ballgame if he doesn't like it.
Ok, enough dos and don'ts.
I thought the most interesting finding was that fathers use more analytical language with girls. Almost as if they thought girls are smarter. Isn't that a damning indightment by them on their own sex?
Yet I think it might be true that they do this. It rings true that my dad spoke to me like that. Like making up little thinking tasks for me to work out. Like he trusted me to work them out. He never did that with my brother. As if he didn't think he could get through to him. I don't know why. My brother wasn't dumb. He'd order him and my brother would rebel against it. They never got along. I always thought it was a man thing. Crazy, isn't it - it's a man thing that men don't get along with each other?
Ok, enough dos and don'ts.
I thought the most interesting finding was that fathers use more analytical language with girls. Almost as if they thought girls are smarter. Isn't that a damning indightment by them on their own sex?
Yet I think it might be true that they do this. It rings true that my dad spoke to me like that. Like making up little thinking tasks for me to work out. Like he trusted me to work them out. He never did that with my brother. As if he didn't think he could get through to him. I don't know why. My brother wasn't dumb. He'd order him and my brother would rebel against it. They never got along. I always thought it was a man thing. Crazy, isn't it - it's a man thing that men don't get along with each other?
3
You forgot something - if a boy likes playing with trucks - let him. Don't keep asking him if he would like to play with dolls. Let him know its ok to play with trucks. He doesn't have to spend equal time playing with trucks and dolls.
4
How about minding your own business on these immaterial the parenting decisions.
As a parent and long time helper/observer of my wife's preschool I see alot of the early differences between boys and girls. There is no mistaking that boys are less responsible for their actions and much less competent at an early age. Without fail, our girls learn basic things at an earlier age. How to put on shoes. How to wash hands. So many skills are clearly being taught and maintained by parents at home. Boys, on the other hand, stand still and expect their teacher to do all these things for them because parents fail to cultivate this. There's a lack of investment in our boys. It's a dumbing down of our boys, that pervades so much of how we parent them. So we don't invest in expanding their emotional range either. We treat them as if they are simple creatures and teach them to suppress their complexity and emotionality. It's sad really because our boys should experience the fullness of their human experience, unhindered by the narrow constraints we place on them.
14
It isn't just parents teach boys - girls develop coordination earlier than boys do (in general). PE teachers explained to me that in athletics boys don't really catch up with girls until high school. If you try to teach all boys to tie shoes at the same age as girls - you may end up frustrating them instead of teaching them. I could not tie my shoes until I was 7 or 8 - it wasn't for lack of trying - my eyes and hands just were not ready for it. I suspect my younger brother learned to tie his shoes before I did.
4
The reason girls typically tie their shoes earlier and hold a pencil well earlier than boys has nothing to do with "will" or effort --it has to do with the brain; Fine motor skills kick in for girls on average at age 5 and at age 7 for boys. Conversely, gross motor skills (and depth perception) kick in for boys on average at age 5 and at age 7 for girls. So, yes, boy will need more help and support early on and need a lot of external motivation to help with the struggles of these tasks early on. A good guide for boys and fine motor skills is this: If they are able to assemble small Legos well then they are ready to try things like shoelaces and writing. If they struggle with small Legos then do what you can to work around other fine motor skill tasks. (It's not a matter of practice --it's a matter of brain development and patience for the parents/caretakers.)
6
As liberal as I may be many respects, this is simply more PC nonsense. There are inherent physical and genetic differences. This leads to different emotional responses and physical attributes that can not be ignored in the push of an equality that will never exist. Do math, fine. Lead a corporation fine. As for the rest ... leave it alone.
17
It's about time that men put their foot down, and tell those man-hating feminists to drop dead. I am so tired of sitcoms, PBS cartoons, ads and other media making men out to be the idiots, the morons, the irresponsible ones, and the stupid ones, while women are portrayed as the better sex. I don't want to put down women, but the tables have turned so that our culture is destroying men to advance women. In the 1950s, the quintessential man was Ward Cleaver. Today, the quintessential man is Woody Allen or some other mealy mouthed wimp who makes 1/3 less testosterone than their grandfathers. If the current crop of men existed during the start of WW2, we would have lost the war.
The easy answer is for men to "man up", and put a stop to this nonsense. Men made this world, and it's about time they retook their rightful place that they earned. If women don't like it, they can set up their own world. Stop giving in. Stop tolerating the attacks. Stop allowing women to boss men around. Stop tolerating politicians who pass laws that penalize men while giving women a break that they didn't earn. And get women the hell out of classrooms where boys reside. Boys shouldn't be anywhere near women after the age of 5.
Equality is fine. Putting men down for political reasons needs to end right now.
Enough is enough.
The easy answer is for men to "man up", and put a stop to this nonsense. Men made this world, and it's about time they retook their rightful place that they earned. If women don't like it, they can set up their own world. Stop giving in. Stop tolerating the attacks. Stop allowing women to boss men around. Stop tolerating politicians who pass laws that penalize men while giving women a break that they didn't earn. And get women the hell out of classrooms where boys reside. Boys shouldn't be anywhere near women after the age of 5.
Equality is fine. Putting men down for political reasons needs to end right now.
Enough is enough.
1
Just curious - stop allowing women to boss men around, but do we also stop allowing men to boss the women around? Because if so, I'll buy it.
12
This is one of the most horrifying things I've ever read in a comment on NYT. "Men made this world, and it's about time they retook their rightful place that they earned." How are men not currently in their "rightful place?"
-96% of Fortunate 500 Companies are run by men.
-On average, men make a greater amount of money for equal work.
-A woman still has not been elected president of this country.
-Congress is dominated by 81% men.
How on earth can you claim that our culture is destroying men? What exactly are you missing? How much more dominance could you want? I truly want to know.
-96% of Fortunate 500 Companies are run by men.
-On average, men make a greater amount of money for equal work.
-A woman still has not been elected president of this country.
-Congress is dominated by 81% men.
How on earth can you claim that our culture is destroying men? What exactly are you missing? How much more dominance could you want? I truly want to know.
4
Do you think that girls aren't criticized for reading poetry?
5
They, too, dislike it.
Maybe not as much as they are looked at askance for liking math.
1
Our boys and young men need help.
Our boys and young men commit suicide 4 times as much as our girls and young women, according to the National Suicide Hotline.
Our boys get ritalin forced on them far more often than girls, get kicked out of school more, drop out of school more, go to jail more, and go on to get only 40% of college degrees. Read that again. If these numbers were reversed according to gender, they would be on the front pages and would be the lead stories on cable news, and rightly so. Why do we ignore them when they apply to boys? We even celebrate them as triumphs for girls. Read Hanna Rosin's The End of Men. She admits as much.
Our boys need help, not lectures, and certainly not celebrations of their falling further and further behind.
Our boys and young men commit suicide 4 times as much as our girls and young women, according to the National Suicide Hotline.
Our boys get ritalin forced on them far more often than girls, get kicked out of school more, drop out of school more, go to jail more, and go on to get only 40% of college degrees. Read that again. If these numbers were reversed according to gender, they would be on the front pages and would be the lead stories on cable news, and rightly so. Why do we ignore them when they apply to boys? We even celebrate them as triumphs for girls. Read Hanna Rosin's The End of Men. She admits as much.
Our boys need help, not lectures, and certainly not celebrations of their falling further and further behind.
27
What exactly do you mean by "need help, not lectures"?
You mean, boys don't need to be taught how to handle bullies?
From your comments, it is apparent that when you say "help" you mean the kind of help that is offered in closed mens-groups - like always voting "not-guilty" in any rape case even if there is overwhelming evidence against the rapist (the exact words from an MRA), and tips on how to surreptitiously take up-skirt photographs of a girl right on your first date, and sell it to (more than) reimburse the sandwich you buy her (and if she offers to pay for her sandwich, it is even better - it is a full profit from the sale).
You mean, boys don't need to be taught how to handle bullies?
From your comments, it is apparent that when you say "help" you mean the kind of help that is offered in closed mens-groups - like always voting "not-guilty" in any rape case even if there is overwhelming evidence against the rapist (the exact words from an MRA), and tips on how to surreptitiously take up-skirt photographs of a girl right on your first date, and sell it to (more than) reimburse the sandwich you buy her (and if she offers to pay for her sandwich, it is even better - it is a full profit from the sale).
1
And girls are 5X more likely to attempt suicide. The difference in the "success" rate is precisely on account of the core differences between the genders.
An excellent book was published a long time ago (1994) about this but unfortunately not translated into English: for those who can, I recommend reading "XY: de l'identité masculine" from E. Badinter
2
The reward to boys for all of this emotional suppression is the inescapable message that men are superior to women. Yes, gendered language hurts everyone but until we deal with male privilege in society it is very difficult for me to gin up any sympathy over the affect of it on boys and men.
13
Do you not realize that male privilege is a symptom of this emotional suppression and gendered language? This article IS doing something about male privilege, by helping everyone realize one of the reasons why it exists in the first place. If you have no sympathy for boys and men, then you are the one perpetuating the issue. You are the one doing nothing about male privilege.
21
and how about the way "privileged" boys have it today?
They commit suicide 4 times as much as girls, according to the National Suicide hotline. You can look it up. They get forced to take ritalin more, quit school more, go to jail more, and now get only 40% of college degrees.
This is "privilege"?
They commit suicide 4 times as much as girls, according to the National Suicide hotline. You can look it up. They get forced to take ritalin more, quit school more, go to jail more, and now get only 40% of college degrees.
This is "privilege"?
22
Yes, they are still privileged despite higher suicide rates. You can be privileged and commit suicide. Privileged does not equal happy. Happiness is a whole other ball park.
14
We need to provide an opportunity to each child to find themselves -- their real selves. And if we do this, they will in some cases be "masculine" or "feminine" and often in between and even this will change for some over their lives. But from the very beginning we should seek to give our kids the language and the emotional and intellectual support to engage in self discovery. This is the challenge for both parents and society at large.
10
As a mother of a toddler girl and an infant boy, I find it liberating to know that I don't need to teach my son to "be a man." He is going to figure that out on his own, whatever it means to him. My husband and I discussed these disparities referenced here in how male infants and children are treated differently compared to female prior to his birth. Our goal is to hopefully raise a boy who is just as you described, himself. I work with people of varying social and economic levels and I know some mothers who have stated, they don't want to raise a sensitive boy or a feminine boy. I find it odd that their definitions of feminine behaviors are all man created social norms mostly derived from the past 50-100 years. But to just try to equip my son with an emotional literacy, letting be what will be, and loving him for who he is... it is really just so liberating.
11
We must not teach our boys to grow up into "big strong men". Until, that is, someone finds a spider in the bathtub.
This is nonsense. We treat boys and girls differently because....boys and girls ARE different. Teach your children to respect themselves and everyone they come into contact with and don't sweat the details.
This is nonsense. We treat boys and girls differently because....boys and girls ARE different. Teach your children to respect themselves and everyone they come into contact with and don't sweat the details.
9
You need to get out more and meet more women.
I for one, take care of my own spiders, snakes, whatever.
I was a stay at home mom of four and in addition to all that entails, I did the yard work, changed the mouse traps, fixed the septic system and when I needed electrical work done, I learned to do it myself because my husband worked long hours and didn't need to come home to a to do list.
I don't need to have a man. I just happen to like the one I've got.
I for one, take care of my own spiders, snakes, whatever.
I was a stay at home mom of four and in addition to all that entails, I did the yard work, changed the mouse traps, fixed the septic system and when I needed electrical work done, I learned to do it myself because my husband worked long hours and didn't need to come home to a to do list.
I don't need to have a man. I just happen to like the one I've got.
19
So obviously you wouldn't have to do the yard work, change the mouse traps, fix the septic system and when you needed electrical work done, learn to do it yourself if you didn't have a man who worked long hours and who didn't need to come home to a to do list.
Instead, YOU would have to work long hours, then come home to your own to do list.
Nah, you don't need no man /facepalm
Instead, YOU would have to work long hours, then come home to your own to do list.
Nah, you don't need no man /facepalm
She doesn't need the man, but the four kids do.
2
The recommended changes are appealing. Yet in the current world, we are raising boys to be the kind of men that women find more attractive as partners. Sure, males should self-actualize and not worry what women think. That's certainly what we recommend for girls instead of urging them to be pretty and nice. Yet if the genders are slower at changing what they (really, deep down) find attractive in the other than in self-actualizing, the men may tend to find comfort in porn and women in romance novels, rather than each other.
3
"We are raising boys to be the kind of men that women find more attractive as partners." Says who? As a woman, I find this assertive ridiculous, despite the "research" briefly mentioned in the piece.
1
I have long thought that this was the case. It's good to read some research confirming it. Boys and girls, and men and women, are different and have different feelings and concerns. Men (and boys) are told to work hard to suppress their feelings, where women are (falsely) told that they have the more profound feelings and are more sensitive. The reality is that life is hard sometimes and feelings are real. Avoiding, or attempting to suppress, the reality of emotional feelings is like ignoring reality; That may be helpful occasionally, in specific circumstances, and in the very short term, but not ultimately. Not to understand yourself is a real disadvantage in life.
6
Correlation of A with B does not necessarily mean that A causes B. The differential behaviour of parents with boys and girls may not be causing differences in boys and girls, it may simply be parents responding to pre-existing differences in boys and girls.
I realise that it's not PC to speak of human nature or innate characteristics but they are there, and parents have learned and passed down over many, many, many generations heuristic strategies for dealing with these differences. To naively suggest tossing overboard millennia of learning is sophomoric.
On another point, the assertion by the author that "our feelings aren't bigger than us, they're not something we should be frightened of", is simply not always true. Many feelings of grief, pain, loss, anger, fear, injustice, etc., are bigger than the abilities of our minds, especially young minds, to contain and process.
These feelings can lead to real, valid fears of being overwhelmed, of responding by doing something we shouldn't do, of losing our identities, of falling apart in an unsafe situation. What is needed in such situations is safety provided by containment (hugs), support ("I'm here, I love you, I'll take care of you"), and aid in processing, not "how are you feeling?".
Simply saying, "now, now, it's alright, tell me about your feelings," indicates that the author has simply not been exposed to the full range of terrifying, overwhelming feelings one can encounter in this world.
I realise that it's not PC to speak of human nature or innate characteristics but they are there, and parents have learned and passed down over many, many, many generations heuristic strategies for dealing with these differences. To naively suggest tossing overboard millennia of learning is sophomoric.
On another point, the assertion by the author that "our feelings aren't bigger than us, they're not something we should be frightened of", is simply not always true. Many feelings of grief, pain, loss, anger, fear, injustice, etc., are bigger than the abilities of our minds, especially young minds, to contain and process.
These feelings can lead to real, valid fears of being overwhelmed, of responding by doing something we shouldn't do, of losing our identities, of falling apart in an unsafe situation. What is needed in such situations is safety provided by containment (hugs), support ("I'm here, I love you, I'll take care of you"), and aid in processing, not "how are you feeling?".
Simply saying, "now, now, it's alright, tell me about your feelings," indicates that the author has simply not been exposed to the full range of terrifying, overwhelming feelings one can encounter in this world.
12
I think your points are valid, but they don't negate the observations made by the author. How do you aid a child in processing emotion if you don't ask the child what they're feeling? And as you noted a child can be overwhelmed by emotion, but it's the parent's obligation to help the child develop their ability to identify and deconstruct the emotion to a manageable level.
8
NYT is pure news, not mere sociological speculation made for entertainment purposes because they have to compete for attention on the internet.
NYT are mere deacons; the US Supreme Court are the priests.
NYT are mere deacons; the US Supreme Court are the priests.
I'm glad I raised girls. As a single teen mom, part of my success with my girls was beleiving that I didn't need a man to have terrific outcomes. Now, I'd like the chance to influence the development of a smart, successful man who is also kind and intuitive. Grateful for a grandson.
8
Just be real, whatever that may be.
Stop overthinking.
Stop overthinking.
7
That's contradictory. If you don't think things through, then the influence of societal norms on your own personal "reality" will remain unconscious and thereby all the more powerful.
Boys should be raised as boys.......no need for o dumb it down and get in touch with their feminine side.
Pure rubbish.
Pure rubbish.
8
This is a typical macho male response, which is why this article needed to be written. Thank you for providing an example to support the article :)
35
Crossing Overhead: And you are an expert on this topic? Please explain exactly how...
5
It's not clear what you mean by "dumb it down." What does "it" refer to?
Do you mean that raising a girl is a "dumber"process than raising a boy?
Or that getting in touch with a feminine side makes a boy "dumb"? Or something else?
Since girls routinely across the board outperform boys academically until higher ed, and since more girls than boys actually go to college, "dumbing it down" wouldn't seem to make sense as an expression of the level of intelligence required to raise a girl as opposed to a boy or the outcome of that raising in the intellect of the child.
Do you mean that raising a girl is a "dumber"process than raising a boy?
Or that getting in touch with a feminine side makes a boy "dumb"? Or something else?
Since girls routinely across the board outperform boys academically until higher ed, and since more girls than boys actually go to college, "dumbing it down" wouldn't seem to make sense as an expression of the level of intelligence required to raise a girl as opposed to a boy or the outcome of that raising in the intellect of the child.
11
Whether they are newborn or a hundred years old, or any age in between, female and male human beings are biologically and spiritually different and it is natural that they should be treated that way in a respectful manner. I believe that attempts to eliminate all gender differences are a sign of a society in decline. Vive la différence!
17
Spiritually different? Could you explain? Any two humans are different. Some humans born with male genitalia and raised as boys identify as girls. Vice versa. Some identify as homosexual. Vive la difference.
4
Letting boys develop into men without stifling their emotions out of shame at being "girlish" is not equating boys and girls. It's letting boys be themselves and ceasing the repression to which they are constantly subjected.
2
As George Orwell pointed out, people sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
Unfortunately we are confronted by an enemy - ISIS, al-Qaeda, radical Islamic terrorism - that will be with us for many, many years. Feminizing our male population will weaken us in our fight against the disease of Islamism. Rough men don't have to be bullies or insensitive, they just have to have a full sense of the evil that exists in our world and have the physical will to combat it. I also fully support those women who want to be rough women in our military and meet the physical criteria.
Unfortunately we are confronted by an enemy - ISIS, al-Qaeda, radical Islamic terrorism - that will be with us for many, many years. Feminizing our male population will weaken us in our fight against the disease of Islamism. Rough men don't have to be bullies or insensitive, they just have to have a full sense of the evil that exists in our world and have the physical will to combat it. I also fully support those women who want to be rough women in our military and meet the physical criteria.
17
I'm a lifelong feminist, and I understand that men and women are different innately
and biologically. My only interest in feminism is that it insure that girls are not stifled in developing their own potential and their own talents--that boys and girls are equally respected a individuals, whatever their abilities.
and biologically. My only interest in feminism is that it insure that girls are not stifled in developing their own potential and their own talents--that boys and girls are equally respected a individuals, whatever their abilities.
6
Read the article : it actually makes you more resilient to have healthy emotional life.
5
The whole point of the article is that a real man can be rough and ready to do violence on our behalf (a real woman as well), without having to stifle their emotions in their private lives; rather, complete emotional development makes a man stronger, and repression actually creates psychological weaknesses. We've all seen pictures of soldiers in full gear tenderly holding babies - those are the real men.
For a man to be well-developed in respect to his own emotions is just for a man to be well-developed; it's absolutely not "feminizing". In fact it's obvious just looking around at the men we know that the ones who are terrified of any "girlish" behaviour such as expressing love for their children are so hampered by their fears that they are actually the weakest link in society.
For a man to be well-developed in respect to his own emotions is just for a man to be well-developed; it's absolutely not "feminizing". In fact it's obvious just looking around at the men we know that the ones who are terrified of any "girlish" behaviour such as expressing love for their children are so hampered by their fears that they are actually the weakest link in society.
3
Our boys and young men need help, not lectures on how to be "better males" for someone else's sake, but what they get are such lectures.
Our boys and young men commit suicide 4 times as much as our girls and young women, according to the National Suicide Hotline.
Our boys get ritalin forced on them far more often than girls, get kicked out of school more, drop out of school more, go to jail more, and go on to get only 40% of college degrees. Read that again. If these numbers were reversed according to gender, they would be on the front pages and would be the lead stories on cable news, and rightly so. Why do we ignore them when they apply to boys? We even celebrate them as triumphs for girls. Read Hanna Rosin's The End of Men. She admits as much.
Our boys need help, not lectures, and certainly not celebrations of their falling further and further behind.
Our boys and young men commit suicide 4 times as much as our girls and young women, according to the National Suicide Hotline.
Our boys get ritalin forced on them far more often than girls, get kicked out of school more, drop out of school more, go to jail more, and go on to get only 40% of college degrees. Read that again. If these numbers were reversed according to gender, they would be on the front pages and would be the lead stories on cable news, and rightly so. Why do we ignore them when they apply to boys? We even celebrate them as triumphs for girls. Read Hanna Rosin's The End of Men. She admits as much.
Our boys need help, not lectures, and certainly not celebrations of their falling further and further behind.
14
jojojo12: Yes, exactly right.
From my perspective, as a single father of two girls, I am inclined to make sure to be a little tougher on the girls and not quite so hard on the boys. Boys are hard enough on themselves already. Still, both boys and girls want to please their parents, and when they feel they have failed in that they are unhappy. Part of what parents do is help the child deal with those feelings. Of course in many ways this drive to please and occasional feeling of disappointment is a good thing, but what is the end-game here, the desired goal? I would hope the goal is an over-all better understanding by the child of his or her own feelings AND some understanding of what went wrong and why the feelings exist. And how to do better next time?
From my perspective, as a single father of two girls, I am inclined to make sure to be a little tougher on the girls and not quite so hard on the boys. Boys are hard enough on themselves already. Still, both boys and girls want to please their parents, and when they feel they have failed in that they are unhappy. Part of what parents do is help the child deal with those feelings. Of course in many ways this drive to please and occasional feeling of disappointment is a good thing, but what is the end-game here, the desired goal? I would hope the goal is an over-all better understanding by the child of his or her own feelings AND some understanding of what went wrong and why the feelings exist. And how to do better next time?
3
They need constructive outlets for their male energy and to be encouraged to develop moral and physical strength.
2
We had the church, sports and Scouts to channel male energy and develop physical strength. The church provided moral and spiritual strength.
It's difficult to get them hanging in Mom's basement smoking weed and eating microwavable food, sleeping it off on Sunday morning.
It's difficult to get them hanging in Mom's basement smoking weed and eating microwavable food, sleeping it off on Sunday morning.
1
20 years ago when my son was little, it was considered okay, and occasionally cute, for girls to hit boys, but boys weren't supposed to hit girls. I taught my sons not to hit anyone, and really didn't like it that other parents and even one teacher were okay if my younger son was slapped or punched in the arm by a girl.
19
According to Cathy Young, who has written for this publication, 37% of Domestic Violence 911 calls are placed by men who have been attacked by women.
How often is such violence depicted in discussions of this issue?
According to the Centers for Disease Control, now more males than females are victims of teenage dating violence. Their Youth Risk Behavior Survey report found "that 8.9% of students (8.9% of males and 8.8% of females) reported PDV victimization during the 12 months preceding the survey."
http://www.batteredmen.com/index.htm
How often is such violence depicted in discussions of this issue?
According to the Centers for Disease Control, now more males than females are victims of teenage dating violence. Their Youth Risk Behavior Survey report found "that 8.9% of students (8.9% of males and 8.8% of females) reported PDV victimization during the 12 months preceding the survey."
http://www.batteredmen.com/index.htm
7
What does this have to do with the article? Nothing.
4
cfbrown77: NO, NOT NOTHING... It reflect the issue of disparity of treatment between men and women in an unexpected way, much as the article itself does. More importantly perhaps, the brief post reflects on the difficulties of understanding and properly expressing the emotions felt by men and women alike. Striking someone in anger is pretty much a failure of communication, except if we want to regard hitting someone as a way of communicating...
8
Looking at the "Canadian study" referenced I had a hard time seeing where / how it "found that college-aged female respondents considered men more attractive if they used shorter words and sentences and spoke less". I will also add the study is based on an N of 30. Overall I don't think this is solid enough ground to make any inference or suggestion.
22
I took it to mean that women are sick of mansplaining.
3
This article left me wondering how much of the coaching of little boys to be "big, strong men" is a part of a societal fear of homosexuality in boys over the years when they do really become men.
18
You hit the nail on the head.
3
All you have to do to have confirmation of your hypothesis is to read the comments of so many males on this thread, the ones who speak of "feminizing" the boys...
I have a small friendly dog that likes children and often greets them on the beach with the ball in her mouth, wagging her tail. The parents of girls are often annoyed and pick up their daughters or shield them (from a 15 lb. dog with a tennis ball bigger than her head jammed in her mouth). This has never happened with little boys. Parents are friendly and encourage their sons to play with the dog. As a woman, I am saddened that the boys are encouraged to interact with the world without fear, and the girls' fear, even if irrational, is encouraged. Perhaps all the attention paid to a girl's emotions are not always a good thing.
23
I'm sorry to hear this, but not surprised. When I was a little girl I was learning to rope a calf from a running horse. That was 60 years ago, but I still wear my scars proudly. My grand daughters are being taught by my son to handle snakes, change tires, rescue spiders trapped in the bath tub, and in other ways interact with the world rationally. No "eek-a-mouse" drama. It takes a conscious effort because our culture is still pushing limiting stereotypes for both boys and girls.
21
My brother is an emerg room Dr. - every week he hears - well that was unusual, my dog never bit anyone in the face before.
4
Unbelievable.. I must get in touch with my "feelings". I feel I have to have a good cry now.
9
Anger is a feeling, too, Skanda.
5
Are we like apes and monkeys? Spend some time in Africa watching in the wild .... or watch almost any male and female animal.
Are we different?
The last 30 years has been nothing short of an assault on boys -- part of society does not like them and is working against them. We can support girls w/o attacking boys ..... we are not going to turn boys into girls. Making boys be girls is not going to elevate girls.
Boys need help -- look at graduation rates ..... not encouraging.
Are we different?
The last 30 years has been nothing short of an assault on boys -- part of society does not like them and is working against them. We can support girls w/o attacking boys ..... we are not going to turn boys into girls. Making boys be girls is not going to elevate girls.
Boys need help -- look at graduation rates ..... not encouraging.
31
Actually, lefty liberalism has done a remarkable job over the last 40 years of feminizing normal, heterosexual men.
There are actual scientific measurements of how much testosterone and sperm counts have DECLINED in this time period.
There are actual scientific measurements of how much testosterone and sperm counts have DECLINED in this time period.
6
Isn't Man being "feminized" just a figure of speech, ie what we thing of as feminine?
I'm more 'feminine' than most men, but my Testosterone level isn't causing problems (and I'm a low-fat, low-protein vegan!). But what's the problem? I have good health. I'm really straight too.
I'm more 'feminine' than most men, but my Testosterone level isn't causing problems (and I'm a low-fat, low-protein vegan!). But what's the problem? I have good health. I'm really straight too.
1
This is almost comical. You really think the lower testosterone and sperm counts are due to lefty parents encouraging their boys to express their feelings? How about maybe pollution and pesticides?
2
Too much role playing of cultural stereotypes leads to an unhealthy alienation from an authentic life. It's neurotic, but according to this article it is normal. It has not been my experience.
6
More of the same old, same old about how it would be so much better if men ... were not men.
24
Being able to process your emotions makes you "not a man?" I guess I never got the memo that men were not supposed to be human beings. It seems by your logic, we would all be better off if all men were just replaced by androids.
14
Not really. Both genders are raised badly; with a sexist prejudiced. Being men doesn't mean being non-emotional. But our society has CREATED that, and it's bad for men.
11
It is not entirely an issue of suppressing your emotions. It is more about understanding that boys have emotions too. Nor is one sex privileged to have the better or more genuine emotions. In business, among other situations, it is very helpful to understand what oneself and other people are feeling, and why. The same thing could be said of family situations. Oh wait, real men don't care?
5
Seems like so many people treat their young girls like children, but young boys like they should already be men, fearing they will never grow out of childhood or something... Life is a long progression of stages: infant, child, teen, young adult, responsible adult, older adult, elderly. Each stage, when fully lived and embraced, prepares us for the next. So let boys experience being children, and they will outgrow childhood.
15
In Oregon, it is now possible to have an "X" on your driver's license to indicate non-binary gender. I hope that some day, recognition of sex differentiation will be eliminated from all public institutions and spaces -- this will be helpful in freeing those currently known as boys, men, and all others from gendered expectations that limit their expression of their true nature.
3
Many articles about gender miss how important it is that boys be taught to respect themselves first and foremost. Without a grounding in self=respect, a boy will not be able to respect girls, women or anyone else. I strongly believe that a person who respects himself will treat others respectfully.
15
I am suspicious about the messaging from this paper for boys/men.
I think women should do what's best for themselves and support them seeking whatever identity and role that is most satisfying for them.
I would want the same for men. But since the 90s I've noted that media isn't asking men to seek their own identity: it tends to tell them to be something that serves a purpose or others
E.g.
Be a dad, be supportive of your wife
All while still displaying these antiquated romantic notions of chivalry and saving women and children.
Modern men need to have articles written about prenuptials and how to look out for your best interests.
Do you know what a dating advice article for a modern man is? "Tips to not get used for dinner tabs by a woman"
I really would like to have men write columns for men at this newspaper. Men that are writing these articles from a modern mans point of view. Men who aren't writing articles to other men with the best intention of family, women or whatever in mind.
Too often on the nyt I see articles by women asking men to do x, y and z. Or I see a man who seems more aligned with some other movement writing the same type of article. E.g. "lean in" is a woman's movement meme asking things of men. It's in the best interests of women not men. Who writes articles with the best interests of men anymore? It is so consistent it feels like an attempt to brainwash
I think women should do what's best for themselves and support them seeking whatever identity and role that is most satisfying for them.
I would want the same for men. But since the 90s I've noted that media isn't asking men to seek their own identity: it tends to tell them to be something that serves a purpose or others
E.g.
Be a dad, be supportive of your wife
All while still displaying these antiquated romantic notions of chivalry and saving women and children.
Modern men need to have articles written about prenuptials and how to look out for your best interests.
Do you know what a dating advice article for a modern man is? "Tips to not get used for dinner tabs by a woman"
I really would like to have men write columns for men at this newspaper. Men that are writing these articles from a modern mans point of view. Men who aren't writing articles to other men with the best intention of family, women or whatever in mind.
Too often on the nyt I see articles by women asking men to do x, y and z. Or I see a man who seems more aligned with some other movement writing the same type of article. E.g. "lean in" is a woman's movement meme asking things of men. It's in the best interests of women not men. Who writes articles with the best interests of men anymore? It is so consistent it feels like an attempt to brainwash
33
Great, great, great! Well said.
Our boys and young men need help, not lectures on how to be "better males" for someone else's sake.
Our boys and young men commit suicide 4 times as much as our girls and young women, according to the National Suicide Hotline.
Our boys get ritalin forced on them far more often than girls, get kicked out of school more, drop out of school more, go to jail more, and go on to get only 40% of college degrees. Read that again. If these numbers were reversed according to gender, they would be on the front pages and would be the lead stories on cable news, and rightly so. Why do we ignore them when they apply to boys? We even celebrate them as triumphs for girls. Read Hanna Rosin's The End of Men. She admits as much.
Our boys need help, not lectures, and certainly not celebrations of their falling further and further behind.
Our boys and young men need help, not lectures on how to be "better males" for someone else's sake.
Our boys and young men commit suicide 4 times as much as our girls and young women, according to the National Suicide Hotline.
Our boys get ritalin forced on them far more often than girls, get kicked out of school more, drop out of school more, go to jail more, and go on to get only 40% of college degrees. Read that again. If these numbers were reversed according to gender, they would be on the front pages and would be the lead stories on cable news, and rightly so. Why do we ignore them when they apply to boys? We even celebrate them as triumphs for girls. Read Hanna Rosin's The End of Men. She admits as much.
Our boys need help, not lectures, and certainly not celebrations of their falling further and further behind.
5
Thought-provoking. I, too, would like to see more such articles by men and for men.
6
It would seem that this article is doing exactly what you're asking, then. It is written by a man, and it is not asking men to do things for women, but discussing how boys could become emotionally healthier and more resilient through good parenting.
15
Sexuality is irrelevant and an old-fashioned way of thinking--self-identified segregation. Time for the Times to get with the times...
1
This has nothing to do with sexuality, as gender assignations do not dictate sexuality. Read it again.
5
There's nothing wrong with the male sex and no, you aren't going to turn boys into girls, however hard you try. You will, however, damage them as boys.
A boy who is emotionally demonstrative or has feminine interests will immediately become a victim of other boys. Then, when he grows up, he will become a victim of other men.
Please, just stop this absurd campaign. It won't work and it just does harm.
I'd rather that we worked on protecting and respecting sensitive boys who, as in my case, don't happen to fit the macho stereotype, and tomboy girls who don't fit the feminine one. Because that's a matter of respecting the individual, rather than hammering round pegs into square holes (or hammering round and square pegs into triangular ones, as the case may be).
A boy who is emotionally demonstrative or has feminine interests will immediately become a victim of other boys. Then, when he grows up, he will become a victim of other men.
Please, just stop this absurd campaign. It won't work and it just does harm.
I'd rather that we worked on protecting and respecting sensitive boys who, as in my case, don't happen to fit the macho stereotype, and tomboy girls who don't fit the feminine one. Because that's a matter of respecting the individual, rather than hammering round pegs into square holes (or hammering round and square pegs into triangular ones, as the case may be).
74
"A boy who is emotionally demonstrative or has feminine interests will immediately become a victim of other boys. Then, when he grows up, he will become a victim of other men."
Yep. They will also, of course, fall victim to many girls and women who, when you get right down to it, have the same old-fashioned expectations of men and boys.
Yep. They will also, of course, fall victim to many girls and women who, when you get right down to it, have the same old-fashioned expectations of men and boys.
10
"have the same old-fashioned expectations of men and boys."
... until we change the old-fashioned way people are raised.
And don't women become victims because they're raised to be weak?
... until we change the old-fashioned way people are raised.
And don't women become victims because they're raised to be weak?
5
sure women are victimized by being raised to be fragile. we talk about that all the time. it's past due to talk about how are boys are raised in ways that hurt them.
Boys commit suicide 4 times as much as girls. The drop out of school more, go to jail more, and now go on to get only 40% of college degrees. They need the same energy to help them that we've been==quite rightly-- giving to girls to help them "catch up."
Boys commit suicide 4 times as much as girls. The drop out of school more, go to jail more, and now go on to get only 40% of college degrees. They need the same energy to help them that we've been==quite rightly-- giving to girls to help them "catch up."
2
The social engineers won't rest until they've turned all boys into girls.
52
Close, but I think the real goal is to turn ALL humans into genderless, bland clones who all feel the same exact way -- and exemplify only lefty liberalism and its beliefs.
4
What a distinctively flawed reading of this piece! Read it again, please, looking for specific points that either describe or imply such. You won't find any.
Far as I can tell, there are no more boys and girls any more. We're all amorphous trans blobs now, right?
3
"...the very thing our scripting has taught them..."
David Sedaris once wrote about his experiences as a Macy's Christmas elf. Between the chuckles, there was an interesting observation. When asked his secret of success, the store's most popular Santa said "It's simple. I tell the girls they're pretty, the boys they're smart." Mr. Reiner wants to "change" masculinity. Ho ho ho.
David Sedaris once wrote about his experiences as a Macy's Christmas elf. Between the chuckles, there was an interesting observation. When asked his secret of success, the store's most popular Santa said "It's simple. I tell the girls they're pretty, the boys they're smart." Mr. Reiner wants to "change" masculinity. Ho ho ho.
7
After seeing the headline, I was disappointed. I thought the article would be about interrupting, condescending and mansplaining to boys, as well as telling them they can't be good at math and science, like we do to girls. Or telling them they need to smile and be happy more, so they look pretty. Bummer.
42
Everything isn't about you.
10
Knitter 215, what great irony! And truth.
Kudos!
Kudos!
First world "problem". Does socially liberal mean we have to conform to some new norm in place of an old norm, or be labeled as unprogressive? This is political correctness run amuck.
28
Why do you say that? No wonder you use "amuck" instead of the current "amok."
No matter what may be politically correct, with few exceptions, a woman wants a "man." And women define what manhood requires. Ergo, if you want your boy to have a girlfriend some day, better teach him to be manly.
38
You do not speak for every woman *or* every man, you speak only for yourself.
6
May V be saved from hermitage is Sawyer so that it may share a perspective broader than itself!
2
Well, guess what? Many women do NOT want "a man'. We want to be with another woman. And many men also want to be with men. there are many ways to be a man - not just how YOU think "a man" should be.
1
The article tends to generalize the results of the study. Not one single study or research can or should be generalized, considering the many variants existing , specially in what concerna the human being, differences in cultures, personalities history, genes, etc....The author seem to want to prove that gender differences in behavior is bad for society, or even for human kind. The beauty of life lies in the fact that we are all different, with different personalities and different ways of thinking, or acting. The article induces people to understand that what is good for society is to have one gender, acting one way only, the same way. What needs to be taught is respect and praise for all differences, for every type os personality, for being born genetically different, for having boys and girls. What would be os humanity if there were only women? or only men? Even in nature the malé acts differently. Look at the birds: males attract females by their extraordinary beauty , in some cases, like the peacock! This desperate attempt to make boys and girls completely alike and same takes away diversity, attraction, and looks for a much less interesting world . Let people be what they are. This study cannot be generalized .
15
And... the study had a n=30 sample...
It is important to recognize our gender roles are a combination of biology, sociology, and theology. While we tend today to explore the first two aspects of "self", we tend to shy away from or deny even the basis of being which is a soul, essence, or "Self" providing a basis or foundation for our biology and socialization. Many comments here from parents and teachers acknowledge that each child is a unique soul and we all can relate to the damage caused by being forced and diminished into socialized gender roles, regardless of the gender.
It seems we do not have a language of the soul and we are woefully unskilled conversing at this level. Philosopher Martin Buber suggested a universal level of communication, a soul to soul "namaste" collaboration he called the "I - Thou" dialog. Currently, our wold and communications are primarily "me - it" lacking any reverence for either ourselves, others, or the physical world. No, we don't have a problem with socialization, but with the lack of sacralization. We cling to our roles because we have lost touch with our souls and our religions generally encourage this estrangement. With a deep spiritual practice, the anxiety and confusion around our biology and social roles diminishes to a humane level, becoming more fluid and flexible.
It seems we do not have a language of the soul and we are woefully unskilled conversing at this level. Philosopher Martin Buber suggested a universal level of communication, a soul to soul "namaste" collaboration he called the "I - Thou" dialog. Currently, our wold and communications are primarily "me - it" lacking any reverence for either ourselves, others, or the physical world. No, we don't have a problem with socialization, but with the lack of sacralization. We cling to our roles because we have lost touch with our souls and our religions generally encourage this estrangement. With a deep spiritual practice, the anxiety and confusion around our biology and social roles diminishes to a humane level, becoming more fluid and flexible.
15
Absolutely.
1
Emotional intelligence, collaboration skills, these are the trends of the future. While in some ways we have done better for girls in encouraging them to live and learn in a more well rounded way, boys often don't get the same encouragement.
Raising a daughter I feel like the world has gotten more genderized than it was when I was a kid. Toys that used to be just toys, like Legos, are now marketed in different packages and on different aisles for girls and boys. Don't get me started on clothes, it can be hard to find just clothes for toddlers and kids these days. Target's Cat and Jack line is pretty good, my daughter gets the dinosaur and rocket ship tshirts and there are some other good brands that are doing kids clothing that is not so crazy girly (or provocative). If kids could live in a world where toys and clothes were just toys and clothes we'd all be better off.
Raising a daughter I feel like the world has gotten more genderized than it was when I was a kid. Toys that used to be just toys, like Legos, are now marketed in different packages and on different aisles for girls and boys. Don't get me started on clothes, it can be hard to find just clothes for toddlers and kids these days. Target's Cat and Jack line is pretty good, my daughter gets the dinosaur and rocket ship tshirts and there are some other good brands that are doing kids clothing that is not so crazy girly (or provocative). If kids could live in a world where toys and clothes were just toys and clothes we'd all be better off.
99
Agree! There are some campaigns who have been challenging the gender stereotyping in children's toys, books and clothing in the last few years and having some really good success with this - check out Let Toys Be Toys and Let Clothes Be Clothes in the UK and Play Unlimited in Australia. Dr Elizabeth Sweet has done a lot of research around the gendering of toys too and her TEDx talk "Beyond the Pink and Blue Toy Divide" is really worth a listen.
9
Just wait until your daughter is a preteen. Clothes for girls are wholly inappropriate. They can dress as hookers, or middle-aged matrons. That's about it. When my daughter graduated from fifth grade, I had to search for weeks for a dress that neither sexualized her nor made her look like a 60 year old. I bought a woman's dress and had it tailored. Other mothers actually congratulated me on dressing her like what she was, an 11 year old!
32
@Sammy: but you are free to buy what YOU like -- children under the age of 8 don't really shop at all. (Teens are another issue entirely.)
If you want to dress your daughter in plain clothing -- or "boy" clothing -- or t-shirts with dinosaurs on them -- DO IT. Who do you think will stop you? The gender police?
You can still buy all sorts of PLAIN legos in a lot of bright colors, that have no gender to them at all -- the "sets" that come in pink and purple are just one variation among the thousands of legos out there -- there are still lots of plain toys that are not specifically for boys or girls. Blocks, building sets, miniature kitchen things, stuffed animals, puzzles, games.
As children get older -- 8-11 maybe -- they'll have more of their own opinions on what they like or dislike, and you can modify your shopping accordingly. Remember that ultimately, children are all INDIVIDUALS and you can't force them to like/dislike anything.
If you want to dress your daughter in plain clothing -- or "boy" clothing -- or t-shirts with dinosaurs on them -- DO IT. Who do you think will stop you? The gender police?
You can still buy all sorts of PLAIN legos in a lot of bright colors, that have no gender to them at all -- the "sets" that come in pink and purple are just one variation among the thousands of legos out there -- there are still lots of plain toys that are not specifically for boys or girls. Blocks, building sets, miniature kitchen things, stuffed animals, puzzles, games.
As children get older -- 8-11 maybe -- they'll have more of their own opinions on what they like or dislike, and you can modify your shopping accordingly. Remember that ultimately, children are all INDIVIDUALS and you can't force them to like/dislike anything.
I read just recently in another article in the NYT that what we should be practicing with our especially male children (as well as with each other) is EMPATHY, KINDNESS, CARING, and BEING POLITE OR AT LEAST CIVIL to each other--in short, GOOD. What was known once by males as "being a gentlemen." Women of course have traditionally been brought up to develop these aforementioned virtues, if they aren't already born with them, while boys are often taught from the time they can stand to "defend themselves or die," and later are introduced to video games where conciliation with any opponent is punished. Then when bored after being glued to a screen, they prowl about the streets in gangs at night spraying paint on every public and private edifice whose aesthetic value is defaced indefinitely if not destroyed forever. So much for civic pride and the other "effeminate" qualities. Such are the results of failing to teach our children well, or at least being good examples to them: nihilism and in-your-face narcissism!
14
AmaIng nonprofit org addresses this: A Call To Men"
3
Witnessed a parent dong this to her son at my preschool. The first year (age 3) he was sweet and loving, a year later he looked unhappy and frustrated. His mom was very aloof to the point where I could tell he craved her affection. Never saw his dad around the preschool enough to form any opinion about their dynamic. But I felt sad for the boy and concerned about what kind of treatment the women in his life will get when he is older.
4
There is a great book by Keith Negley, "My Dad Used to be So Cool" that portrays a young boy learning about his dad's rockstar past and wondering why he gave it all up. It's a great depiction of a father's love for his son and making life changes outside of whatever masculine construct their might be.
7
What is "cool," really? That's one to unpack when thinking about nihilism and narcissism...
6
'What is "cool," really? That's one to unpack when thinking about nihilism and narcissism...'-Eyes Open
Narcissism is a "cure" for nihilism, surely. The Abrahamic Universe being all out us, for example? Cool just means that most of your personal assessment ticks are in the your own win column; you act like it's true, and people respond. Pick your battles and the dream lives on. Multiply that by 7 billion and...the sun comes up tomorrow.
Narcissism is a "cure" for nihilism, surely. The Abrahamic Universe being all out us, for example? Cool just means that most of your personal assessment ticks are in the your own win column; you act like it's true, and people respond. Pick your battles and the dream lives on. Multiply that by 7 billion and...the sun comes up tomorrow.
In addition to stereotyped gender representations in children's songs and books, I think we should take a long hard look at the messages for and about kids in things like clothing. In the past few years, there's been an increasing number of kids' clothing manufactures that have listened to kids and parents passionate requests for girl's clothes with positive empowering messages for girls and girls clothes that reflect a broader diversity of interests, particularly science and STEM themes. I celebrate this positive change in having more options for girls! However, when I browse many kids' clothing stores, the messages for and about boys are largely negative stereotypes of boys as messy, lazy, and rude. One of the worst examples I've seen recently are the huge differences in the graphic t-shirts currently being sold by The Children's Place. They have for girls an entire line of "girl power" shirts with messages like "I am a smart talented girl" , "Girls can do anything", "Girls never give up". But the messages for boys are about being lazy "I never finish anyth", "please don't make me do stuff", "I'd clean my room but I'm overqualified", "Nope I'm going back to bed", "sloth napping team". ALL of our kids deserve to be hearing positive empowering messages that encourage them to grow as people without limits of what it means (stereotypically) to be a boy or a girl.
48
Wow that is a really stark contrast. Kind of gross that we are letting corporate clothing manufacturers write the narrative of our children's character.
2
Thank you for saying what should be obvious, but, alas, is not.
Our boys need help... they're behind in school, drop out more, go to jail more, and now get only about 40% of college degrees.
When girls were behind in school, we quite rightly got to work to catch them up. Now, boys are behind, and it's seen as a triumph for girls rather than as a problem to be solved.
Our boys need help... they're behind in school, drop out more, go to jail more, and now get only about 40% of college degrees.
When girls were behind in school, we quite rightly got to work to catch them up. Now, boys are behind, and it's seen as a triumph for girls rather than as a problem to be solved.
7
Ive lived as both a cis-man and and a transgender woman, and I cam affirm what this article says.
Men in todays society are emotionally castrated in my opinion. When I lived as a cis-man it seemed like I got no support, that no one wanted to hear about my emotions. After I transitioned, I noticed a lot more emotional support and lots more emotions coming at me. It was definitely wierd amd surprising.
Men in todays society are emotionally castrated in my opinion. When I lived as a cis-man it seemed like I got no support, that no one wanted to hear about my emotions. After I transitioned, I noticed a lot more emotional support and lots more emotions coming at me. It was definitely wierd amd surprising.
65
I have a friend who has transitioned recently and she says much the same. What a wealth of insight trans people have into gender dynamics. I look forward to the day when we are mature enough to see trans men and women as a real asset to our society; people with unique insight into how gender plays out in all walks of life. The rest of us are largely trapped in our binary and can never experience the reality of the other gender, so must rely on studies and whatever empathy we can muster. Yet, as we slowly relax our rigidity and strict moralism around gender, we find in our midst a thankfully increasing number of people who have walked through both lands. What a rich source of learning and insight for the rest of us, if we can hear it, that can help us collectively navigate these complex waters.
6
People who've been on both sides of the gender divides are such great and valuable witnesses. I hope you talk about what you discovered......
7
Adam Young (aka Owl City) released a song today called "Not All Heroes Wear Capes" (just in time for Father's Day).
He released the following statement about his song:
"One of the most important relationships in my life is the one I have with my dad. I imagine to everyone else, he is just a normal guy: friendly, down-to-earth, patient, laid-back, even-keeled, a man of few words - but to me, he is a hero. I wrote this song as my way of saying, ‘Hey dad, I love ya.’ And if there’s anything I know, it’s that not all heroes wear capes.”
-Adam Young
-------
Here we see a singer - who is very much in touch with his emotions and comfortable expressing them - describing his father the same way the article does, except his perspective of these qualities is positive instead of negative.
He released the following statement about his song:
"One of the most important relationships in my life is the one I have with my dad. I imagine to everyone else, he is just a normal guy: friendly, down-to-earth, patient, laid-back, even-keeled, a man of few words - but to me, he is a hero. I wrote this song as my way of saying, ‘Hey dad, I love ya.’ And if there’s anything I know, it’s that not all heroes wear capes.”
-Adam Young
-------
Here we see a singer - who is very much in touch with his emotions and comfortable expressing them - describing his father the same way the article does, except his perspective of these qualities is positive instead of negative.
10
Artists, musicians and writers have probably always been allowed to be in touch with their feelings. It's the non-creative population that seems to be forced to be emotionally constipated.
7
Be grateful you don't get what you wish for.
3
Perhaps the author is not up-to-date on modern parenting techniques? Because talking to children of both genders about their feelings without judgment is pretty standard these days. This would have been a more revelatory article had it been published a decade or two ago.
7
Perhaps in your community, but I more often witness the dynamic described in this article.
7
Maybe so, but on the playground at daycare pickup, I hear a lot of "Don't cry" directives from boys' parents. In spite of what people read in the parenting books, their childhood programming tends to take over.
7
I'm a mother of young adult men. They usually communicate their feelings well and are very empathetic to the feelings of others. My concern is, as smart, hardworking and talented as they are, they have anxieties about being able to make a nice life for themselves and one day support a family.
Even after seeing their mom be a very successful professional, they see the job of financially supporting a family as mostly male. The topic of talking to boys the way we talk to girls needs to be fleshed out to include the discussion of the shared roles of both genders so that we can break the level of stress carried by our young men.
Even after seeing their mom be a very successful professional, they see the job of financially supporting a family as mostly male. The topic of talking to boys the way we talk to girls needs to be fleshed out to include the discussion of the shared roles of both genders so that we can break the level of stress carried by our young men.
31
Yes, we need to bring back "bring your daughters (not sons) to work day." Girls need to understand that they must work, and work hard for long hours, in a paying job. It should not be just up to their husbands to support the family (if they want one).
7
The persistent wage discrepancy between men and women who do equal work (22cents/dollar) is a more significant factor in why men still feel the burden of supporting their families. The opportunity gap at higher levels of responsibility/pay exists for women, and more so for men and women who are do not appear Caucasian. Mens' earning potential makes a significant difference in the socioeconomic status of the family unit.
If any girl (or boy) grows up believing they are not expected to work, that is a problem that BOTH parents contributed to.. And BOTH parents have to work harder to raise healthy adults, not just blame the other parent/in laws/society.
If any girl (or boy) grows up believing they are not expected to work, that is a problem that BOTH parents contributed to.. And BOTH parents have to work harder to raise healthy adults, not just blame the other parent/in laws/society.
1
"Even after seeing their mom be a very successful professional, they see the job of financially supporting a family as mostly male."
Our entire culture, when you get down to it, sees men as more responsible for bring home the bacon, just as it sees women for being more responsible for child care.
We fully acknowledge the latter, but continue to ignore the former.
Our entire culture, when you get down to it, sees men as more responsible for bring home the bacon, just as it sees women for being more responsible for child care.
We fully acknowledge the latter, but continue to ignore the former.
1
Hmmm.... there's a lot of good in this article, but I don't completely agree with it based on personal experience. I have three brothers raised in the same environment by the same people (our parents). Two are emotionally closed off, the other is a mensch.
I have a son and a daughter, very close in age. I raised them at home and my husband and I are very expressive with our emotions. From an early age, our son responded to cars and trucks. His second word was 'car'. My husband and I could care less about cars, never pointed them out, never talked about them. My husband does a lot of housework - does the dishes, grocery shopping, laundry, etc. He took care of the kids when my parents became ill and I was gone a lot. He's very expressive and public with his emotions. So.. now they are teenagers and I can say without a doubt, that it is FAR FAR more nature than nurture. Our son is just not that emotive, our daughter is. Social pressure is a huge factor. But our son was interested in things that were fast, big and powerful (cars, trucks, trains, dinosaurs) from 1 years old (and he was not around other kids at this age) whereas our daughter liked animals and didn't care about any of that stuff. I absolutely agree that we should show our children equally, regardless of gender, ability, etc. that we love them and that it's good to have feelings, but I wonder about the findings.
I have a son and a daughter, very close in age. I raised them at home and my husband and I are very expressive with our emotions. From an early age, our son responded to cars and trucks. His second word was 'car'. My husband and I could care less about cars, never pointed them out, never talked about them. My husband does a lot of housework - does the dishes, grocery shopping, laundry, etc. He took care of the kids when my parents became ill and I was gone a lot. He's very expressive and public with his emotions. So.. now they are teenagers and I can say without a doubt, that it is FAR FAR more nature than nurture. Our son is just not that emotive, our daughter is. Social pressure is a huge factor. But our son was interested in things that were fast, big and powerful (cars, trucks, trains, dinosaurs) from 1 years old (and he was not around other kids at this age) whereas our daughter liked animals and didn't care about any of that stuff. I absolutely agree that we should show our children equally, regardless of gender, ability, etc. that we love them and that it's good to have feelings, but I wonder about the findings.
19
Don't you think, having read the article, that there are ways in which you have influenced your children from the moment they were born of which you were not aware?
9
agree entirely
@dj: how could anyone not influence their children from the moment they were born? If you bring up your children to be "gender neutral" or "politically liberal"....you have influenced them.
The only way to bring up completely NON-influenced children would be to let them roam wild, like a pack of animals. Even then, there would be influences from biology and nature.
The only way to bring up completely NON-influenced children would be to let them roam wild, like a pack of animals. Even then, there would be influences from biology and nature.
2
So, my kids are now older (18, the boy, and 21, the girl). Before she went through puberty, we got all the books on the subject and read them together, talking. When he approached puberty, I got all the books for boys and he said, "No, Ma, I am not going to read a how-to book on puberty. I'm just going to wing it." :) Well. *I* read the books and they warned me that he might stop talking so much about things. What I find is that it's not that he won't talk, but he needs a little encouragement, which my daughter never did. Maybe he starts talking as we're driving somewhere. Maybe I need to ask him if something's bothering him when I sense that something is. Maybe he talks in a way that's more of a debate (that he's out to win) than a discussion. But he does talk ... so yay!
http://fewbricksshy.blogspot.com/
http://fewbricksshy.blogspot.com/
7
I'm female and I was more like your son.
3
An evolutionary diet, e.g. Paleo, is deemed to be vastly superior to any modern invention, e.g. gluten or GMO's. We should eat the way slow evolution directed.
How come, then, we so urgently reject our biological heritage when it come to behavior, especially w.r.t. gender differences? We SHOULD NOT behave the way we evolved.
How come, then, we so urgently reject our biological heritage when it come to behavior, especially w.r.t. gender differences? We SHOULD NOT behave the way we evolved.
3
I doubt very much that cave-women - should I say ' women living in caves in the cavey era' - would have enjoyed a pleasant and happy evening with her 'husband'. I doubt that men in that era - I'm thinking Tarzan? - would have the time or inclination in the evening after a day whacking lions to share a glass of fictitious wine in front of the fire with wifey, and talking about family things..... we are after all more evolved, no? I say yes. That paleo diet is probably big in NM.... we are not wanting to go back to the rest of it all.
I like the light bulbs and cushions. The radio. not so much the TV though;
No - sorry - not going back to 'heritage' times, dear B. even to join in the paleo surge.
I like the light bulbs and cushions. The radio. not so much the TV though;
No - sorry - not going back to 'heritage' times, dear B. even to join in the paleo surge.
7
Agree entirely
Yikes: more strained reasoning about the interplay between the genders in the child parent realm. And backed up by "studies" too. For example, the conclusion that mothers talk more volubly and emotionally to infant sons gives the absurd conclusion that mothers know boys are more sensitive and need more support! What drivel; how about moms being more devoted to the male figure than the female or the opposite, daughters being closer to fathers, a phenomenon known for millennia, transcending disparate cultures? The important advice should be to never over emphasize the strengths or weaknesses of the two genders when loving, encouraging or simply practically dealing with each of them as individuals. Boys and girls are different but that doesn't mean either should be treated in a manner that discourages or excludes or diminishes the strengths of their relative characteristics. Therefore, I buy granddaughters train sets and teach boys about empathy. But in the end I know the boys will want to swing baseball bats harder than girls for a longer period of time but both will ultimately be judged on recognition of the great theme of Joyce's Ulysses: Amor aliquid aliqui bonum vult. "Love wants the good for an other in some manner."
14
Possibly, it's because you "know" that they will do it that is the very reason they do do it
1
Or we could raise men instead of wimps.
17
Whatever that means?
2
Wimps? what on earth? see below...... oh, yes of course, you're in Texas, there are special rules there, aren't there? against thinking and talking and reading and understanding difficult things like climate change.
9
What? Have you ever spent any time Texas, or are you working on assumption?
As a boy growing up in North Babylon on Long Island in the 1970s I found that simply being articulate, speaking in whole sentences with polysyllabic words was definitely frowned upon as a sign of effeminacy. It was a kind of sick family tradition, to be an inarticulate guy. I could feel my brain dumbing myself and my words down. Most of my extended clan's male role models on LI and Staten Island were inarticulate beyond the usual narrow expressions of contempt and anger. So glad I'm free of them, my old family ghosts.
40
Since testosterone levels have been lowering in Western males for generations, the non-stop denigration of all-things-male by women (and men!) should take care of the overpopulation problem.
20
Some of that testosterone drop may be due to chemicals that inhabit our food, fertilizers and industrial cleaners -- chemicals included and released by corporations primarily run by (wait for it) men.
Meanwhile, the age of physical maturity (as demonstrated by first menstrual period for girls, lower voice for boys) has been reducing for centuries -- and that research goes all the way back to JS Bach's choir.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/active/mens-health/10695991/Why-are-mens-...
Meanwhile, the age of physical maturity (as demonstrated by first menstrual period for girls, lower voice for boys) has been reducing for centuries -- and that research goes all the way back to JS Bach's choir.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/active/mens-health/10695991/Why-are-mens-...
1
The child-rearing suggestions embedded in this article are great. The final sentences are essential for any child, including sons: "Just show up for them. Get them talking. Show that you want to hear what they’re saying."
However the comparisons derived from the various cited studies all imply the same fallacy: girls and boys are the same, so they should be treated the same.
Males and females are different from birth, physically and psychologically. When you are comparing group A and group B, note a difference, and ask a morally-weighted question as to why this is so, there needs to be recognition that groups A and B are fundamentally different going into the comparison. At one point in the article this is mentioned in passing: "...because the sons needed more support for controlling their emotions" -- apparently from birth. Recognizing the a priori differences between groups makes experiments much more complicated -- what is your dependent variable? But "wet science" (biology, psychology etc) is like that: complicated! Be careful about pulling moral judgements from life science experiments.
However the comparisons derived from the various cited studies all imply the same fallacy: girls and boys are the same, so they should be treated the same.
Males and females are different from birth, physically and psychologically. When you are comparing group A and group B, note a difference, and ask a morally-weighted question as to why this is so, there needs to be recognition that groups A and B are fundamentally different going into the comparison. At one point in the article this is mentioned in passing: "...because the sons needed more support for controlling their emotions" -- apparently from birth. Recognizing the a priori differences between groups makes experiments much more complicated -- what is your dependent variable? But "wet science" (biology, psychology etc) is like that: complicated! Be careful about pulling moral judgements from life science experiments.
32
No the studies don't all do that. They citee one that finds males "are born more emotionally sensitive than girls".
2
I volunteer in after-school childcare - so I don't tend to shout 'stop that - might be risky!' the way the paid staff do
I tend to smile as kids try handstands and gymnastics on the mats - my favourite 6yo girl used to look at me every few seconds like 'is this OK - what I'm about to do?' - I would just smile - she would just glow - she'd do it - achieve it - other girls would come up to her and ask to be shown how - she'd then teach others - wonderful stuff - and all the time I said nothing - just smiled.
On rare occasions boys were being too pushy I'd suggest to the girls they could take direct action - one boy under a table pinching girls legs as they cried anxiously 'we can't do anything!' - I said 'if you kick him he will come out' - oh - they did and he did - he reverted to a meowing cat - they stroked his back and he purred - giggling their little heads off - the girls had taken their power back - they'd won!
I tend to smile as kids try handstands and gymnastics on the mats - my favourite 6yo girl used to look at me every few seconds like 'is this OK - what I'm about to do?' - I would just smile - she would just glow - she'd do it - achieve it - other girls would come up to her and ask to be shown how - she'd then teach others - wonderful stuff - and all the time I said nothing - just smiled.
On rare occasions boys were being too pushy I'd suggest to the girls they could take direct action - one boy under a table pinching girls legs as they cried anxiously 'we can't do anything!' - I said 'if you kick him he will come out' - oh - they did and he did - he reverted to a meowing cat - they stroked his back and he purred - giggling their little heads off - the girls had taken their power back - they'd won!
64
Oh, and they giggled all the way home
1
Yeah the learned helplessness of females makes me want to retch.
I am an older female professional and find the female emotional thing vastly overrated. I get mighty exhausted by other women from what in this country goes down for "emotional openness" which is often nothing more than infantile narcissism and a penchant for taking everyhing too personally.It's not that I haven't experienced sexism in the workplace, but still find men easier to work with in general precisely because they arent wrapped up in their feelings all the time like guests in an Oprah show. They just want to get the job done and solve the problem.
The problem with many men in this country, especially middle aged white men, is a masculinity complex and lack of confidence. They are so scared of coming across as weak buffons that they become total jerks and losers.
This has to do with what they grow up seeing on TV which is that it is not masculine to be smart, it's better to be "cool" and boorish. The men who are portrayed as smart or good fathers are always comical incompetents. Hence the antiintellectualism and fear of the so-called "elites." TV culture has had a hige impact on our brains and it's not good.
The problem with many men in this country, especially middle aged white men, is a masculinity complex and lack of confidence. They are so scared of coming across as weak buffons that they become total jerks and losers.
This has to do with what they grow up seeing on TV which is that it is not masculine to be smart, it's better to be "cool" and boorish. The men who are portrayed as smart or good fathers are always comical incompetents. Hence the antiintellectualism and fear of the so-called "elites." TV culture has had a hige impact on our brains and it's not good.
215
Thank you. Your comments were more indicative of what I see in society than this article.
4
I so agree with you. When I worked I wanted to work, not hear about the travails of my female coworkers. I was labeled as 'too brainy' of all things, like this would not be a compliment. Men just want to work and I didn't have to hear all their silly 'life choices'. Our culture is dismal.
6
I find women far more easy to work with. They aren't wrapped up in their need to be right, fragile egos, behavior. Women get more time, more quickly, more efficiently. No braggadocio involved
5
As old timer and the father of three sons, It kind of goes like this. They call, I ask if everything is ok? Yep! Family doing ok. Yep. I then ask if they caught the Patriots or Bruins or Celtics games? Each son has a favorite team. Discussion goes on for 20 minutes or so. Stats, scores, chances for a playoff spot, etc. Then, want to talk with your Mother? Yep. Luv ya. Love you too Dad. Here's your Mother. That's it in a nutshell!!
Mother takes over and they each can talk an hour or more. I ask, what do you talk about? Everything. Oh...
Our Sons are all well adjusted, I'm just not too sure about their Dad!
Mother takes over and they each can talk an hour or more. I ask, what do you talk about? Everything. Oh...
Our Sons are all well adjusted, I'm just not too sure about their Dad!
163
One of my sons is a 1st Lt. in the Army. He tries to call me once a month or so. Rarely texts me. However, he texts my husband constantly. "Whatever are you texting about?" I ask. "Oh, just sports stuff" says my husband. Neither my son or my husband were 'jocks' or athletic in any way. Very strange.
5
No worries, Dad...your sons sound like they are doing just fine. (Do you talk with their mother for lengthy periods yourself? If not, why not give it a shot?) And Happy Fathers' Day!
3
cherrylog754: What are you afraid of?
1
As if we don't have enough BRO-tests and MAN-splaining and talking over women, everywhere from elementary school classrooms to the boardroom and halls of Congress and beyond. Perhaps these "taciturn" types are just that - thoughtful, analytical, pensive and wise enough to listen first rather than serving as hyperactive human prepositions interrupting and positing and never pausing to just listen and really hear what others are saying. Not everyone is meant to be the extroverts in the room, let alone the loquacious, omniscient, hubris-filled, domineering boors that are increasingly being asked by lawyers, investors and H.R. Chiefs to apologize, back-pedal and ultimately resign their posts in corporate America. Adult supervision indeed!
15
i always wish I was more the strong silent type but my gf says shes glad Im not lol
12
We need to address the elephant in the room of our evolutionary psychology. Though I know this is not what we want to hear, and we are actually limiting scientific study in these areas since it challenges our social and political goals, but believe it or not men and women are different. Hormones affect our moods, thoughts, and behaviors. Likely the way our brians wire themselves are different based on biologal, cognitive, and social feedback loops. Emotions have specific functions in encouraging certain thought patterns and behavior (vice-versa) and it would be unsurprising to find a biological basis for males and females emotional differences. As for us being able to override our biology with our minds, most of us are powerless in the face of a chocolate chip cookie, never mind our sexed based behavior patterns. Obviously, to live in a harmonious modern society we may need to try to control our gender based inclinations. However, first we need to actually and honestly discover what those are. Personally, I feel that to be impossible in today's academic climate where professors are censored for expressing their ideas, and though I hate to use the phrase, only "politically correct" research is undertaken. Right now we seem to want to believe that sex differences are minimal and easily socially engineered, so the topic of this article cannot be addressed with any intellectual seriousness.
27
This claim just doesn't stand up to the fact. There is a lot of research being done on how individuals behave from birth through adulthood and both sex and gender are always variables that are taken into account. There is no "politically correct" censorship shaping the study of evolutionary biology or psychology.
6
j.fizz: You are wrong. Instead of posting about what research is being done in the fields of evolutionary biology and psychology, think of the topics which are NOT being studied.
1
"considered men more attractive if they used shorter words and sentences "
Wow, this explains why so many Republican women voted for misogynist Trump: his contempt of them was expressed in a masculine way, so earned their respect, in a visceral way that overwhelmed their common sense to vote against a misogynist.
To the point of the article: I spent years helping my bf (now ex-bf) understand that just because his mother said hurtful things, and he reacted reasonably by blocking his emotions, was not a reason to spend the rest of his life blocking his emotions. His mother had died years before. I encouraged him to practice on me, and after about 2 years, he made phenomenal progress on sensing, expressing and respecting emotions, and found that made him far more popular with his scientist colleagues.
Gay men are great at being girlfriends, confirming that something about heterosexual male conditioning (from men and from women) does harm men's ability to sense and express emotions.
Fantastic article, I wish the best to men. Those who trust us, teach us.
Wow, this explains why so many Republican women voted for misogynist Trump: his contempt of them was expressed in a masculine way, so earned their respect, in a visceral way that overwhelmed their common sense to vote against a misogynist.
To the point of the article: I spent years helping my bf (now ex-bf) understand that just because his mother said hurtful things, and he reacted reasonably by blocking his emotions, was not a reason to spend the rest of his life blocking his emotions. His mother had died years before. I encouraged him to practice on me, and after about 2 years, he made phenomenal progress on sensing, expressing and respecting emotions, and found that made him far more popular with his scientist colleagues.
Gay men are great at being girlfriends, confirming that something about heterosexual male conditioning (from men and from women) does harm men's ability to sense and express emotions.
Fantastic article, I wish the best to men. Those who trust us, teach us.
61
Gay men are not your "girlfriends". They are men. And they are also deeply affected by the same damaging stereotyping this article is referring to. Only in mainstream culture they are neutered, not really having a gender.
3
Gay men are "conditioned" in the same way as straight men, if not more.
I agree - though I'd point out this is far from just a republican or conservative male thing.
I'm a lifelong liberal. I spent my childhood in a conservative town but went to college in a very liberal town and now live in Brooklyn. Trust me, Dems are just as close-minded as conservatives when it comes to heterosexual men. We may be more accepting towards the LGBTQ community, but not so with straight men who deviate from their expectations.
I've heard any of my liberal women friends say the exact same thing: prefer stoic men, prefer men who are taller, who make them feel safe, who make more money than them -- basically they prefer men who in every way fit the stereotypical hetero male role.
I'm a lifelong liberal. I spent my childhood in a conservative town but went to college in a very liberal town and now live in Brooklyn. Trust me, Dems are just as close-minded as conservatives when it comes to heterosexual men. We may be more accepting towards the LGBTQ community, but not so with straight men who deviate from their expectations.
I've heard any of my liberal women friends say the exact same thing: prefer stoic men, prefer men who are taller, who make them feel safe, who make more money than them -- basically they prefer men who in every way fit the stereotypical hetero male role.
Thank you.
4
Please, please don't try to push these massive generalizations about how men are socialized, and these simplistic solutions. Sorry, but I've been a guy for 35 years, and it doesn't speak at all to my experience. Combine it with weak studies and trying to teach people that guys are oppressed and will never be able to be their true selves because of some vague tendencies that have little to do with the experience of individuals.
Sorry, I know this stuff sells well right now, but give me a break.
Sorry, I know this stuff sells well right now, but give me a break.
26
It isn't expected for individuals to conform to studies. Studies show a tendency, not a rule.
9
And there you have it. Deny, deny, deny...
4
Amusing article. Yes, we should understand people have different needs and communicate differently and it is incorrect to pretend that all men or all women communicate in the same fashion and we should be wary of placing someone in a specific category just because they are female or male. But the pretense that differences between men and women are merely societal conditioning ingrained from infancy is ignorant. A more interesting article was published here: http://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-di...
12
When we say that a certain way of interacting with children "is harmful," is there a certain reference point in mind?
Is there a way of talking to children that is definitely not harmful?
Is there a state of being a child that is "unharmed"?
What would that look like? Would it even be recognizable? How would we define the "unharmed child"?
Is there a way of talking to children that is definitely not harmful?
Is there a state of being a child that is "unharmed"?
What would that look like? Would it even be recognizable? How would we define the "unharmed child"?
11
It may be time to help girls to put their emotions aside at times, to offer them the benefits of independence and recognize the need to push for what you want. Perhaps we need to start having the conversation about women and girls accepting and celebrating the masculinity within themselves and in men.
19
Girls have not been taught to be independent and push for what they want? Where, exactly, have all these successful women, in all fields, many in the face of strong push-back from males in their field, come from? Were they just beamed down from some planet of Amazons, fully formed?
I do take issue with your condescending idea that this is due to their having accepted and celebrated their "masculinity", but if we want to follow that thread I would humbly submit that it is society, or anyway that segment of society that still equates achievement with maleness, that needs to accept and celebrate the "masculinity" in our girls and women. The women have it sussed - time for the guys to get over it. But they can still cry if they want to.
I do take issue with your condescending idea that this is due to their having accepted and celebrated their "masculinity", but if we want to follow that thread I would humbly submit that it is society, or anyway that segment of society that still equates achievement with maleness, that needs to accept and celebrate the "masculinity" in our girls and women. The women have it sussed - time for the guys to get over it. But they can still cry if they want to.
NMT: Those successful women are the exceptions, not the rule.
1
NMT - those women who "push back" are by far the exception, not the rule. Sure they exist, but they are a measly minority.
I found the observations very interesting, but why is there an assumption that the differences are somehow wrong? If we were to examine the socialization of elephants or wolves we would say that their behavior has evolved to be as it is over many thousands of years because it was necessary for the survival of the species. But no, when we examine human social behavior it isn't about how we evolved, but about how our behavior has warped people and deprived them of their "natural" self actualization. Men and women are different, and being different is ok, and we are going to have to deal with that difference until women discover parthenogenesis.
26
Read the whole article next time. Academic outcomes - you're reading comprehension shows exactly what the problem is.
2
This is really not that hard. Just have some real conviction. I taught young childrenl for some years before I had kids, and I was very vigilant to treat them similarly regardless of many traits, including gender. (Yes, I know that different souls require differing strategies, but no child should feel that s/he is treated differently). So by the time my kids came along I'd had a lot of practice.
I talked to my babies all the time. People in grocery stores assumed, because there was just an infant with me, that I must be talking to them. My daughter talked early, my son right on time. But they both developed good vocabularies--we spoke with them and also denied them TV reception, so they read a lot and probably didn't see as much stereotypical gender typing as many others of their generation did.
They were born with wildly different personalities, and nothing we did changed that. But they learned what they lived, just like all kids, and both our son and our daughter are both feminists now.
I talked to my babies all the time. People in grocery stores assumed, because there was just an infant with me, that I must be talking to them. My daughter talked early, my son right on time. But they both developed good vocabularies--we spoke with them and also denied them TV reception, so they read a lot and probably didn't see as much stereotypical gender typing as many others of their generation did.
They were born with wildly different personalities, and nothing we did changed that. But they learned what they lived, just like all kids, and both our son and our daughter are both feminists now.
57
Feminists believing in myths like the wage gap and the patriarchy or normal people believing in gender equality ?
2
Matt, the wage gap is a myth? Are you also a climate change denier?
5
Smart woman! we always had the smallest B&W tv we could find - to take the glamour out of watching TV to make it a bit of a chore, and to discourage viewing of all that crap on it. To this day I never watch anything that has advertisements. Ever. You become what you watch.
6
Interesting that the 'left' brains functions associated with logic, linear thinking, math, more attributed to men, also includes language. Computer programming after all has to do with languages.
What does it mean to supress emotions, anyways. After all there are only so many of them.
What does it mean to supress emotions, anyways. After all there are only so many of them.
9
First of all, boys are biologically and therefore psychologically different from girls. So they must be treated differently in order to promote development. It has been long known that girls develop language skills sooner than boys. Therefore, it is totally appropriate to tend to direct boys to be safe whereas many girls can profit from an explanation. This is especially true because boys tend to assume more risks. Boys do catch up and men can develop very high levels of emotional intelligence if they have not been forced to be something they are not earlier in life. The bonding seen among boys can be challenging for teachers and parents, but this bonding is important for individuation from parents and for social skills.
Second, gender is also a cultural phenomenon that isn't going away any time soon. Ask a transgender person if gender-defined traits are important. Manliness is a good thing, as is womanliness. The culture will positively reinforce manly traits such as endurance despite obstacles, risk-taking, pride of carriage, reliability in keeping agreements, protection of others (sometimes with aggression), eagerness to promote development of boys as well as girls, a sense of honor, and approprite expressions of competition. As the article suggests, many women tend to be attracted to such men. I'm not saying that women cannot have these traits, but I am saying that these are among the traditional male virtues seen cross-culturally, with few exceptions.
Second, gender is also a cultural phenomenon that isn't going away any time soon. Ask a transgender person if gender-defined traits are important. Manliness is a good thing, as is womanliness. The culture will positively reinforce manly traits such as endurance despite obstacles, risk-taking, pride of carriage, reliability in keeping agreements, protection of others (sometimes with aggression), eagerness to promote development of boys as well as girls, a sense of honor, and approprite expressions of competition. As the article suggests, many women tend to be attracted to such men. I'm not saying that women cannot have these traits, but I am saying that these are among the traditional male virtues seen cross-culturally, with few exceptions.
43
I would argue that these traits are universal rather than "manly."
1
Sorry David, but your words are spoken with the conviction and authority of a clueless man. I'm just thankful that my daughters did not marry men with your "virtues."
1
Such nonsense. All unfounded generalizations. Is this how you seek self-validation?
1
Some years ago, I read an NYT op-Ed where a feminist mom explained how she learned that much of our character is hard-wired. She gave her young daughter a truck - she held it as if it were a baby and said "there, there." She gave her son a baby doll - he cradled it like a machine gun and made shooting noises.
Ask a parent - boys and girls really are different! Not just social pressures or ideology! It's baked in!
Ask a parent - boys and girls really are different! Not just social pressures or ideology! It's baked in!
50
Have you considered how the children may have picked up on those behaviors? I suspect that if they grew up in a world where men were predominately caregivers and women were predominantly competitors and fighters, the childrens' behavior would be different.
11
I was absolutely convinced that parents influenced "boy" vs "girl" behaviors - until I had a son and daughter. The different ways they responded, as toddlers, to various objects, was startling, and absolutely corresponded to gender stereotypes. I like to think the way they were raised gave him permission to be soft and her permission to be strong, but the innate differences have to be acknowledged.
9
FYI the differences you describe would pretty much have described the differences between my two nieces when they were toddlers.
6
To the Author: my understanding is that the studies you cite pertain not just to American boys but boys worldwide. Thus, these differences between boys and girls are not merely cultural My conclusion: isn't that just the way it is? Even with good intentions, can we really change what comes naturally to boys and what comes naturally to girls?
12
Baloney. You can find examples of whatever you are looking for. This is the third or fourth NYT article this week going on about what is wrong with men or how society is warped in some way that hurts women. I work in a female dominated field. Some of my female co-workers "man-splain", others are bullys, some are prone to crude talk...you get the point. Women today can do whatever they like and be whoever they like. Your attempts to paint females as victims or to find categories of fault based on gender is just your own soft bigotry.
75
You don't seem to have read the article, which is about how BOYS are hurt by how they are raised.
24
@NorCal Girl
You don't get it. This article and so many others presume that men (and boys) are messed up, and that women (and girls) need protection from unfair gender bias. PEOPLE, not just men, can be crummy; as parents or in the workplace. This fixation on men is nonsense and the sweeping generalizations that this author makes would never be accepted if applied to a group other than "men".
You don't get it. This article and so many others presume that men (and boys) are messed up, and that women (and girls) need protection from unfair gender bias. PEOPLE, not just men, can be crummy; as parents or in the workplace. This fixation on men is nonsense and the sweeping generalizations that this author makes would never be accepted if applied to a group other than "men".
7
This article is ridiculous fluff, demonstrating nothing other than the author and cited "researchers" have fallen prey to the religious belief that evolution stopped at the neck.
1
All that to come around to "I can see that your upset". I raised my kids with those credos 35 years ago and allowing your son or daughter to express what they were feeling wasn't new back then either... though for parents like myself raised in the 50's and 60's, this approach took a little bit of work.
It sounds like the author wants boys to explore their sensitive sides so that they will be "better off"... at least until they run into someone without that type of training that gets in the first punch.
I think a better bet would be to encourage all children to study martial arts at a young age under the tutelage of a good teacher; man or woman. Add to that writing, reading, art, creative play, gardening, music, cooking, team sports. Those activities will create a positive framework for all of the coaching and non-coaching that the author feels is necessary. Sure, encourage the boy to explore his feminine side. Apply it to girls as well so that they can embrace their masculine side. Just don't be surprised when your children, at least some of them, eventually tell you to chill out when you start interfering too much with their hard-wiring.
That's my experience raising healthy, successful children of my own. But feel free to ignore this anecdotal advice because if you are a loving parent and you are trying your best, you don't need to feel the added pressure of trying shape the world as well with your every effort. Do the best that you can. Each kid is different!
It sounds like the author wants boys to explore their sensitive sides so that they will be "better off"... at least until they run into someone without that type of training that gets in the first punch.
I think a better bet would be to encourage all children to study martial arts at a young age under the tutelage of a good teacher; man or woman. Add to that writing, reading, art, creative play, gardening, music, cooking, team sports. Those activities will create a positive framework for all of the coaching and non-coaching that the author feels is necessary. Sure, encourage the boy to explore his feminine side. Apply it to girls as well so that they can embrace their masculine side. Just don't be surprised when your children, at least some of them, eventually tell you to chill out when you start interfering too much with their hard-wiring.
That's my experience raising healthy, successful children of my own. But feel free to ignore this anecdotal advice because if you are a loving parent and you are trying your best, you don't need to feel the added pressure of trying shape the world as well with your every effort. Do the best that you can. Each kid is different!
120
So...you are advocating we all raise our children to be warrior poets, huh?
2
You mean like a kung fu black belt with a flute in her belt?
Why not say, warrior gardeners, for that matter? Of course there is a difference between being a warrior and being able to defend yourself, physically, emotionally and intellectually. Many children (or adults for that matter) are not confident in basic self defense and they exude it, like having a kick-me note pinned on their back. That is just a personal observation. I was just suggesting confidence building opportunities across a wide spectrum of interests. A few years of self defense classes with the right teachers is just one of the ingredients. Warrior poets is fine, though.
Why not say, warrior gardeners, for that matter? Of course there is a difference between being a warrior and being able to defend yourself, physically, emotionally and intellectually. Many children (or adults for that matter) are not confident in basic self defense and they exude it, like having a kick-me note pinned on their back. That is just a personal observation. I was just suggesting confidence building opportunities across a wide spectrum of interests. A few years of self defense classes with the right teachers is just one of the ingredients. Warrior poets is fine, though.
2
Mr. Cullen, with respect: the overarching point is that developing and expressing a full range of emotions doesn't constitute a "feminine" side. It's a HUMAN thing, irrespective of gender.
2
Actually, on second thought, just watch "Captain Fantastic" and do that.
7
Just remember that your son will spend plenty of time in the tribe of boys - and while it is not exactly Lord of the Flies - you had better not make him too unusual or you are sentencing him to a long and lonely childhood.
6
I'm all for learning to understand one's emotions. That said, I think there is a critical role for men and traditional "masculine" virtues that we ignore at our risk.
19
perhaps what they mean is acting competitively, being against others and for yourself, is masculine ... while acting cooperatively, working with others to all move ahead together as a group, is feminine.
and this was the lesson of the 2016 election: Trump campaigned like a man, to make America "great" and strong and put America first... while Clinton (and Bernie) ran feminine campaigns about cooperation and taking care of others and not putting ourselves first all the time.
so, Clinton won more popular votes, if you discount the three million imaginary votes cast by space aliens, while Trump won the Electoral College in a triumph of selfish masculine fighting tactics.
talk about gender dysphoria!
and this was the lesson of the 2016 election: Trump campaigned like a man, to make America "great" and strong and put America first... while Clinton (and Bernie) ran feminine campaigns about cooperation and taking care of others and not putting ourselves first all the time.
so, Clinton won more popular votes, if you discount the three million imaginary votes cast by space aliens, while Trump won the Electoral College in a triumph of selfish masculine fighting tactics.
talk about gender dysphoria!
2
Every President since George Washington has been elected the exact same way -- by the Electoral College.
Emotions are kryptonite for boys and men. Men and boys should only take their masks off (i.e. show their emotions) when they're with their men/boys. Their tight knit trusted group of men/boys.
Vive la différence. Men and women (boys and girls) are not the same. I wasted a lot of time and was miserable trying to be what my mom and sister said I should be. Once I realized how wrong this was, I became a much happier human.
The only part of the article I agree with is how women think they want transparent men who show their emotions but then can't stand them once they do. Subconsciously the women are testing the men and those who pass the test by not showing their true emotions are the ones women want. Natural selection at work.
It ain't broke. Please stop trying to fix it.
JWS
Vive la différence. Men and women (boys and girls) are not the same. I wasted a lot of time and was miserable trying to be what my mom and sister said I should be. Once I realized how wrong this was, I became a much happier human.
The only part of the article I agree with is how women think they want transparent men who show their emotions but then can't stand them once they do. Subconsciously the women are testing the men and those who pass the test by not showing their true emotions are the ones women want. Natural selection at work.
It ain't broke. Please stop trying to fix it.
JWS
28
Men commit the vast majority of violent crime in this country -- clearly, something is broke.
27
wow - so men learn not to show emotions - bottle them up - until they explode with resentment and go out with a gun and kill multiple innocent citizens ?
and this is your recommendation ? wow.
and this is your recommendation ? wow.
6
Men are responsible for the overwhelming majority of inventions, too.
1
And the divide starts very early on. Ever notice how accepted and common it has become to refer to one's infant son as "Little Man?" But I have never heard of anyone referring to their infant daughter as "Little Woman." There is something just icky about it.
46
There is actually a whole very-popular YA book with that title.
11
Reminds me of a young mother visiting my home who remarked admiringly, when her toddler boy broke my lamp, "He's all boy!"
I felt like saying "What the heck else would he be, and why do you sound so worshipful about his maleness when he's just wrecked my lamp?"
But I was busy sweeping up the glass so Little Master All-Boy and my little girls wouldn't get cut, and I also felt stuck in my gendered role of Good Hostess. So I observed... and still recall this vividly though it was 40 years ago!
I felt like saying "What the heck else would he be, and why do you sound so worshipful about his maleness when he's just wrecked my lamp?"
But I was busy sweeping up the glass so Little Master All-Boy and my little girls wouldn't get cut, and I also felt stuck in my gendered role of Good Hostess. So I observed... and still recall this vividly though it was 40 years ago!
117
You felt stuck in your gendered role? If you are not strong enough to stand up for yourself, don't blame society.
1
Oh My God, Andrew, we're all such liars.
Sure, we want the emotion in a man, feel the love, see the hurt, maybe even, um, cuddle.
Just like we want to rely on the strength, the wisdom, the boldness of women, even ones who refuse to cuddle.
But there's nothing in it for us. It's a loser's game, and our culture, our biggest-mouthed religions, even the business and political leaders who are the flower of our civilization make clear these are loser concerns, felt by loser people, who are losers.
It's like looking for ethics in business or politics. Like doing a two-year study on morality or public service in corporate culture.
Sure, it's good to talk about these things, good to acknowledge they might have importance to some...loser.
But when the quarterly reports come out, when the Christmas bonus hits the savings account, when market share is reported, nobody cares. Literally nobody. Unless they win, then they'll tell you they care ever so much.
Same with women. Same with men. You can be honest, wise, educated, maybe even rich, but if you're built like Gabriel Iglesius you might be out of luck.
If you go all the way to weeping with joy when your son hits his first blooper to right, or breaking down as Katniss covers Rue in flowers, prepare to drive home alone.
I wasn't talking about myself, by the way.
We in America are pretty great at knowing what to talk about, what's important, even meaningful. We're just not so good at supporting it, or living with it.
Sure, we want the emotion in a man, feel the love, see the hurt, maybe even, um, cuddle.
Just like we want to rely on the strength, the wisdom, the boldness of women, even ones who refuse to cuddle.
But there's nothing in it for us. It's a loser's game, and our culture, our biggest-mouthed religions, even the business and political leaders who are the flower of our civilization make clear these are loser concerns, felt by loser people, who are losers.
It's like looking for ethics in business or politics. Like doing a two-year study on morality or public service in corporate culture.
Sure, it's good to talk about these things, good to acknowledge they might have importance to some...loser.
But when the quarterly reports come out, when the Christmas bonus hits the savings account, when market share is reported, nobody cares. Literally nobody. Unless they win, then they'll tell you they care ever so much.
Same with women. Same with men. You can be honest, wise, educated, maybe even rich, but if you're built like Gabriel Iglesius you might be out of luck.
If you go all the way to weeping with joy when your son hits his first blooper to right, or breaking down as Katniss covers Rue in flowers, prepare to drive home alone.
I wasn't talking about myself, by the way.
We in America are pretty great at knowing what to talk about, what's important, even meaningful. We're just not so good at supporting it, or living with it.
19
“my dad who’s big and strong” and “fixes things with his hammer”
No, that's Thor you're thinking of. Some dads write software, some do surgery, and some do write poetry. I'm handy with a hammer, but no so much with a baseball bat, and even at five my son wasn't enough of a hypocrite to claim otherwise.
As for emotional relationships, the current thinking seems to be that there should be no line between mothering and fathering. While the old stereotypes were certainly inappropriate, we need to be careful about swinging our pendulums too far and conflating equality with equivalence.
No, that's Thor you're thinking of. Some dads write software, some do surgery, and some do write poetry. I'm handy with a hammer, but no so much with a baseball bat, and even at five my son wasn't enough of a hypocrite to claim otherwise.
As for emotional relationships, the current thinking seems to be that there should be no line between mothering and fathering. While the old stereotypes were certainly inappropriate, we need to be careful about swinging our pendulums too far and conflating equality with equivalence.
32
"The world is what it is. Men who are nothing, who allow themselves to become nothing, have no place in it." V.S. Naipaul
Lest we forget, midst all this babble.
Lest we forget, midst all this babble.
9
Naipaul was an absolute pig and an abuser, so you may not have picked the best person to quote here...
9
We try hard to raise our son differently than our fathers' raised us. We can be proud and speak with him about his emotions, but most importantly spend time with him. Alone time and the male bonding experience is fine, but together as a family unit is where he receives the best lessons. It's especially important that he learns how treat others through the love and respect that his parents have (and show) for each other.
31
DEBORAH Tannen, renowned sociolinguist, in her book, You Just Don't Understand, writes that women typically communicate with the purpose of answering the question, Do you like me yet? While men typically communicate with the purpose of answering the question, Have I won yet? In her book she cites an example of Italian preschool children playing where the girls are more into sharing crayons while the boys are more into grabbing the crayons to cause conflict. Such an example cannot be generalized to all child rearing attitudes and behaviors. But I think that the differences run deeper, since before birth, girls and boys have different levels of hormones. There are other behavioral differences as well. Girls tend to be more verbal and to develop fine-motor skills earlier than boys, who tend to be less verbal and to develop gross motor skills earlier. These are generalizations, though, not universal truths. I know of many parents, myself included, who offered trucks and dolls equally to girls alike, with the results that the girls ignored the trucks and the boys ignored the dolls. I'm not convinced that the parents sent cues, verbal or nonverbal, that girls and boys were expected to be more attracted by specific toys. I wonder what brain scans would show. But I doubt that people would permit their very young children to be subjected to multiple examinations involving exposure to X rays and very loud noises.
10
John, You don't need to start taking imaging of infant children - Read this study: http://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-di... Regarding trucks and dolls - here is a quote from the article: " In a study of 34 rhesus monkeys, for example, males strongly preferred toys with wheels over plush toys, whereas females found plush toys likable. It would be tough to argue that the monkeys’ parents bought them sex-typed toys or that simian society encourages its male offspring to play more with trucks." The study doesn't suggest that no girls want to play with trucks or that no boys want plush toys or dolls - everyone is different but there are measurable generalities that hold up in studies and it is ignorant to ignore the generalities.
6
nice comparative - girls 'do you like me yet?' - boys 'have I won yet?'
I can see that at work in kids at childcare - very interesting - thanks !
I can see that at work in kids at childcare - very interesting - thanks !
1
A thought-provoking article!
3
Hear, hear. The damage done to male people denied the full range and expression of human emotions is incalculable, and the ensuing rage--entirely understandable once one recognizes this profound, systematic damage inflicted on males--underlies many forms of violent behavior. Parents: PLEASE be the change you want to see in the world by encouraging your sons to develop and express their full range of emotions. You can do it, even if you were not fortunate enough to be raised this way yourself.
105
I work with teens who have emotional problems and one of our big challenges with some of the boys is teaching them the emotional vocabulary to describe accurately what they are feeling (particularly if they have been abused). Until they have a productive means to express themselves, they often use violence against themselves and others.
I don't think it's ever too late to teach kids how to identify and talk about their feelings. It needs to be taught explicitly with older kids and adults. It works.
I don't think it's ever too late to teach kids how to identify and talk about their feelings. It needs to be taught explicitly with older kids and adults. It works.
11
"The damage done to male people denied the full range and expression of human emotions is incalculable,"....You should have stopped with incalculable.
2
Women can have feelings and men can have feelings, but they can’t both be having feelings at the same time. One has to balance the other, not mirror her or him.
I am not a normal woman, I guess. I talk to my daughters about "being proud" of them, and about their "winning" (NOT in a Trumpian way though). I guess I always felt being a bit competitive is a good thing regardless of gender.
Oh, and my husband talks and emotes more than I do, and I find him very attractive. Go figure.
Oh, and my husband talks and emotes more than I do, and I find him very attractive. Go figure.
50
I wish I could recommend this ten times. I guess I'm not a normal woman either. I talk more to my son, probably because he is older than the little girl. They both receive sweetness and both receive kudos for accomplishments. I think a lot of the emotional talk is faddish psychobabble, I prefer to ask children what they want and need rather than "what are you feeling," for either gender. It works just as well without sounding like we are on Oprah. Besides, emotional suppression has little to do with the language you use and more to do with parental openness and acceptance. I've heard many parents who are complete passive aggressive jerks use the "I'm sorry you feel that way, let's talk about your feelings" language. And my husband too is more cutesy with both of them than I tend to be.
17
Non Trumpian victory would be magnanimous (see Winston Churchill, Abraham Lincoln)
1
After decades in classrooms ranging from preschool to middle school to high school and working with groups of coed and single-gender groups, as well as raising a son, the idea of positioning boys against girls runs counter to practicing what we preach---and teach. Each child has a personality, history, and way of being in the world that frees and or/limits them. Treating each child as who she or he is, and identifying limiting beliefs and behaviors, works for each one.
Being an authentic self is possible for teachers and their students as well as parents and children; part of this is knowing how stereotypes affect development and self-image. Pointing out how they work is like pointing out a hot stove. If we don't charge what we observe, which children see in toddlerhood, with our own feelings, and identify rather than indoctrinate or blame, they have room to grow from the inside out.
Being an authentic self is possible for teachers and their students as well as parents and children; part of this is knowing how stereotypes affect development and self-image. Pointing out how they work is like pointing out a hot stove. If we don't charge what we observe, which children see in toddlerhood, with our own feelings, and identify rather than indoctrinate or blame, they have room to grow from the inside out.
13
I agree as a teacher that it is important to make men and women, boys and girls aware and conscious of gender stereotypes so that they can critically begin to make their own individual decisions about what serves them best as individuals. I like Sheryl Sandberg's ideas in Lean In that men should allow that stay-at-home dads can be a viable path and women should see that being corporate leaders can be a viable path. This preparation to critically assess gender stereotypes needs to begin when students are very young and continue throughout their schooling years.
6
Is it that men are suppressing their emotions or that they just aren't as emotional people in the first place? It's not evil for a man to display emotions, but when I see people talk about how we need to "talk to their boys like girls" it's really just holding a highly emotional personality the golden standard for an ideal member of society. And that much is outright ridiculous.
There's a big difference between saying it's acceptable to deviate from the gender norm of who is and is't emotional, as opposed to saying that we should all be emotional. I've seen this in my own life even- people, primarily women, assume if you're just a stoic person you're covering up some underlying trauma, and it must be some sort of condition. No, I just wouldn't react to a situation in such an emotional way in the first place. I'm not deprived of anything or have any mental health or lack of resilience issues. And the same is true of plenty of other men- they're just not ones to think about situations as emotionally.
I really doubt this is completely related to how we speak to boys versus girls. This is more an issue of having an ideal for how people should think. It's high time we stop having people strive for standards that are out of character for them. People would be up in arms if we said women should act masculine to get ahead in the workplace. Why is it right to say the golden standard for men is to be emotional when many aren't. Just accept the fact that we're wired differently.
There's a big difference between saying it's acceptable to deviate from the gender norm of who is and is't emotional, as opposed to saying that we should all be emotional. I've seen this in my own life even- people, primarily women, assume if you're just a stoic person you're covering up some underlying trauma, and it must be some sort of condition. No, I just wouldn't react to a situation in such an emotional way in the first place. I'm not deprived of anything or have any mental health or lack of resilience issues. And the same is true of plenty of other men- they're just not ones to think about situations as emotionally.
I really doubt this is completely related to how we speak to boys versus girls. This is more an issue of having an ideal for how people should think. It's high time we stop having people strive for standards that are out of character for them. People would be up in arms if we said women should act masculine to get ahead in the workplace. Why is it right to say the golden standard for men is to be emotional when many aren't. Just accept the fact that we're wired differently.
68
I'm not sure you read the whole article.
53
"People would be up in arms if we said women should act masculine to get ahead in the workplace."
"Act masculine," said in more words, is literally 95% of what women are advised about how to get ahead in the workplace.
"Act masculine," said in more words, is literally 95% of what women are advised about how to get ahead in the workplace.
268
Joshua, I don't know. I myself am not moody. After a good night of sleep, I naturally want to go have sex, run, ski, hit the gym, etc.. I am almost always in a dumb jock mood. I read books and view art. But my native mood is dumb jock. I was raised by a very NON dumb jock Jewish mom. It wasn't my upbringing. My two older half-brothers (same mom) TALK a lot about feelings and psychology, but they are almost competitive about it, as if if being in touch with yourself is a competitive sport.
5
In my experience, even if men in general do tend to look more emotionally detached at first glance, when we trust an other person enough to open up, we really open up. The same is true with women in my opinion; a relation of trust must be built before they genuinely express their emotions and not just some convenient facade.
16
Very good point, if I read you right: the active public emotionalism of women (especially in groups) is just as likely to be a facade as the stoicism of men in equivalent situations.
21
Emotionalism of women in groups - a facade? Absolutely NOT.
As for stoicism of men in groups, reflect on your own experience... apparently you think it IS a facade. I think this is one of the points of this article.
As for stoicism of men in groups, reflect on your own experience... apparently you think it IS a facade. I think this is one of the points of this article.
But isn't the way we were treated as children, particularly when we were infants, something we draw on when we have our own children or interact with other children? And we also watch how parents deal with their young children and remember how we were dealt with as opposed to how our siblings were dealt with. My point is that it can be very hard to change behavior that we don't "remember" but use. What might be of more use is changing how toys are marketed, how clothes are marketed, and what we let boys and girls do separately or together. There's nothing comparable to allowing a child to have a chance at say, a leadership position, no matter what their gender is.
Children, like adults, are different. We do children a disservice when we expect them to behave in stereotypical ways based upon their gender. As a girl I hated hearing my mother yell at me for being the dirtiest girl around. I hated being forced to wear dresses. But what I truly hated was being treated like I was a freak because I liked science. I received no encouragement. Today we encourage girls but we don't mentor them when it comes to certain careers. We do the same to boys. No job, no field, and no interest is inherently male or female. Nor is any one emotion exclusively male or female. Teach that to children, move society in that direction, and maybe some of the communication problems will lessen.
Children, like adults, are different. We do children a disservice when we expect them to behave in stereotypical ways based upon their gender. As a girl I hated hearing my mother yell at me for being the dirtiest girl around. I hated being forced to wear dresses. But what I truly hated was being treated like I was a freak because I liked science. I received no encouragement. Today we encourage girls but we don't mentor them when it comes to certain careers. We do the same to boys. No job, no field, and no interest is inherently male or female. Nor is any one emotion exclusively male or female. Teach that to children, move society in that direction, and maybe some of the communication problems will lessen.
113
It's certainly true that we draw on our subconscious experience as a child when raising our own children. However, there is a way to break free from our subconscious and I think this article is specifically trying to remind us of that by highlighting our (likely) subconscious actions towards boys. It requires that we take a proactive, thoughtful approach towards raising our children, and not to assume that what we feel is "natural" (e.g. learned) is necessarily right. Such an assumption puts society in a constant loop whereby we perpetuate generation after generation of stereotypes and/ or emotional issues or behaviors that are not optimal or healthy. Yes, it's hard to change behavior, but it's possible and highly worthwhile.
25