Please spread the word to all MLB players: Never run the bases without a gun. As one of the good guys, you may need to defend yourself!
9
Having been on the scene of gun fire a few times myself as a reporter, I fully understand that, when the shooting starts, people being targeted or in an area where shooting is happening go kind of nuts. This is normal. First: what is happening? Second, OMG, someone is shooting. Next, where is it coming from? How can I get away? Once someone goes through this list, with adrenaline flooding the body making thinking difficult, the next question should be: what can I do?
Understand this: there is nothing that can be done without high risk of death. From the video, it looks like people on the ball field did exactly the right thing as soon as the shooting stopped, they rushed to help the wounded. If this had been a targeted assassination effort, then they would have been in grave danger but that is a chance one must take.
The new rule of "active shooter" is to do anything you can to slow the assailant. A paintball gun, in some situations, could incapacitate a shooter. In an open field like a ball park, driving a car or truck at the shooter and running him down would be appropriate. Again, your own life would be at great risk.
I will post some history of how the "active shooter" profile has changed over the years in a reply to this post. Years ago, police and others counseled hiding and passivity, but many have now realized that this doesn't work and does very little to help. The new advice is that if you can do something, then try it because many people can be killed quickly.
Understand this: there is nothing that can be done without high risk of death. From the video, it looks like people on the ball field did exactly the right thing as soon as the shooting stopped, they rushed to help the wounded. If this had been a targeted assassination effort, then they would have been in grave danger but that is a chance one must take.
The new rule of "active shooter" is to do anything you can to slow the assailant. A paintball gun, in some situations, could incapacitate a shooter. In an open field like a ball park, driving a car or truck at the shooter and running him down would be appropriate. Again, your own life would be at great risk.
I will post some history of how the "active shooter" profile has changed over the years in a reply to this post. Years ago, police and others counseled hiding and passivity, but many have now realized that this doesn't work and does very little to help. The new advice is that if you can do something, then try it because many people can be killed quickly.
4
This morning, I felt sick to my stomach when I heard "me-first" narcissist Trump proclaim in a staged setting:
“We may have our differences, but we do well in times like these to remember that everyone who serves in our nation’s capital is here because, above all, they love our country . . . ."
I'm sorry, Mr. Trump, I have absolutely no doubt you love yourself much more than you love the millions of people who did not vote for you. It's all about adulation for yourself. You can't fake that.
It's quite clear to all who witness your daily shamelessness. In all my years, I never thought I would have to make such an observation about a so-called president unfit to serve in the best interests of the greater public good. You are a con-man --and you will never sell us with empty words.
“We may have our differences, but we do well in times like these to remember that everyone who serves in our nation’s capital is here because, above all, they love our country . . . ."
I'm sorry, Mr. Trump, I have absolutely no doubt you love yourself much more than you love the millions of people who did not vote for you. It's all about adulation for yourself. You can't fake that.
It's quite clear to all who witness your daily shamelessness. In all my years, I never thought I would have to make such an observation about a so-called president unfit to serve in the best interests of the greater public good. You are a con-man --and you will never sell us with empty words.
7
If you believe that rhetoric matters than I suggest you read some of your opinion writers. Somehow I am doubtful they will agree to tone it down.
5
One of Trump's earliest Executive Orders was to sign a bill revoking gun checks for people with mental illnesses. And he is taking people's health care away. There's a trajectory...
Children being killed couldn't sway the power hungry, greedy Republicans. I doubt this will.
Children being killed couldn't sway the power hungry, greedy Republicans. I doubt this will.
9
Go read your history or your Bible. Murder is as old as Cain and Abel... PS Cain was not executed. In fact, crime and murder figures are down in most places.. I think that's a real statistic. This was a clear case of suicide by cop and take a few bad guys along with me. More than one person has thought that way.-- perhaps not that different than how soldiers are taught or simply do think. It's very sad and PS it does not happen daily. Can we get over Love as virtuous and simply practice courtesy and kindness? Love the virtue may be closer to hate than it is to kindness.
Between Bernie Supporters run amok, Baton waving, masked progressives violating the free speech rights of Conservatives, screeching illegal aliens protesting for amnesty to the Black Lies Matter thugs setting fire to cities like Baltimore the Democrats have spawn more hate groups than at any other time in recent memory.
6
I read the NYT for a reasoned and credible perspective. Those editorial mistakes and retractions are very significant, bearing directly on the entire point of the editorial. And this was not just the oversight of a guest contributor, but a piece by the editorial board itself.
26
I won’t be surprised if we end up with some additional gun control with 'Scalise' in the title. This is the typical US approach to gun control as it ignores the almost 75% of firearm homicides that occur primarily with handguns in low income urban minority neighborhoods, year after year, decade after decade.
There isn’t even enough information available to determine what additional gun controls might have made a difference, just a knee jerk reaction. As a result ineffective laws get passed, and as a result gun control advocates demand more ineffective gun controls.
Gun control advocates demand supply side solutions while gun rights advocates prescribe demand side solutions. One side ignores how effective the NFA laws have been since the 1930s, and the other ignores the fact that the population with lowest rate of firearm ownership commits the most firearm homicides, typically in their own political strongholds.
I don’t expect any rational approach to the problem.
There isn’t even enough information available to determine what additional gun controls might have made a difference, just a knee jerk reaction. As a result ineffective laws get passed, and as a result gun control advocates demand more ineffective gun controls.
Gun control advocates demand supply side solutions while gun rights advocates prescribe demand side solutions. One side ignores how effective the NFA laws have been since the 1930s, and the other ignores the fact that the population with lowest rate of firearm ownership commits the most firearm homicides, typically in their own political strongholds.
I don’t expect any rational approach to the problem.
7
Statistics don't lie . In the states with the most lax gun laws , there are the highest gun death rates per capita , as opposed to those states that make it harder to obtain a gun , which have the lowest deaths by a gun .
My Republican Congressman Leonard Lance was asked if he felt threatened at all in light of what happened on the baseball field. And he replied that he has had many Townhall meetings and they have security and no he hasn't felt threatened. That's because New Jersey is a no carry state and people are not walking around with guns! He might feel differently if he knew that any one sitting in that auditorium could be packing heat .
I for one feel a lot safer knowing that wherever I go here in my state , the only people carrying guns are policemen, as it should be in my opinion .
Although I was at a Target some time ago and saw a gentleman , not in a police uniform , with a gun in a holster . It was very unnerving and I did call the police because although he might have been a retired police officer, it is also against the law in New Jersey to carry a gun that is not concealed , even if you do have a license to carry , which very few people do.
It is way to easy to obtain a gun in most states and this is the result , plain and simple . Combine any anger , rage , hostility with a gun , and you create a deadly combination .
My Republican Congressman Leonard Lance was asked if he felt threatened at all in light of what happened on the baseball field. And he replied that he has had many Townhall meetings and they have security and no he hasn't felt threatened. That's because New Jersey is a no carry state and people are not walking around with guns! He might feel differently if he knew that any one sitting in that auditorium could be packing heat .
I for one feel a lot safer knowing that wherever I go here in my state , the only people carrying guns are policemen, as it should be in my opinion .
Although I was at a Target some time ago and saw a gentleman , not in a police uniform , with a gun in a holster . It was very unnerving and I did call the police because although he might have been a retired police officer, it is also against the law in New Jersey to carry a gun that is not concealed , even if you do have a license to carry , which very few people do.
It is way to easy to obtain a gun in most states and this is the result , plain and simple . Combine any anger , rage , hostility with a gun , and you create a deadly combination .
12
Why do we blame America and Americans for merely being human? We can't escape it. With little or no access to guns in Britain a female member of Parliament was gunned down there not so long ago. All the terrorism of Europe and the Middle East is political in nature. Putin murders reporters which goes along with the politically motivated violent oppression that is practiced by regimes around the globe. Back to Great Britain, didn't they endure almost routine bombings not so long ago as a result of political differences with Northern Ireland. There is political violence in Mexico in the form of the assassination of a presidential candidate. A prime minister was assassinated in Israel. Sadat was assassinated in his country. There are violent uprisings and violent putdowns of the same almost weekly somewhere in the world all over political differences. Overall I would say in terms of actual violence surrounding our politics we're still pretty tame. I just have a problem with the emphasis of the title here that suggests we're somehow a uniquely violent country politically.
2
Nice job retracting the long ago debunked smear against Sarah Palin.Does the NYT have a smidgen of shame or embarrassment for all the false,inaccurate and anonymous ''news'' they've printed since November? Are there any adults working here? Anyone to say no to the teenagers? Liz Spayd the former ombudsman did her job with honesty and integrity,she got fired as a reward.
It's time to put standards and integrity ahead of subscriptions NYT, you urged Fox News to do it,now it's time to practice what you preach.
It's time to put standards and integrity ahead of subscriptions NYT, you urged Fox News to do it,now it's time to practice what you preach.
29
The NYT's edited article is disingenuous while the language in the correction at the end is accurate.
It's one thing to state that back in 2011 you and others were critical of right wing rhetoric and a whole other thing to then go and to state, well, but that had nothing to do with Loughner.
You conflated two completely different things, leveraging a negative that never existed, to make a political point. In doing so, you have done a disservice to your readers.
A madman shot Giffords, uninspired by Palin, uninspired by the right, uninspired by the GOP, uninspired by anyone save for his demons. Those are the facts. Pure and simple.
Horrible of you not to edit the opinion accordingly.
This is why many on the right argue that "fake news" is a problem.
I challenge you to fix it...again...and correctly this time.
It's one thing to state that back in 2011 you and others were critical of right wing rhetoric and a whole other thing to then go and to state, well, but that had nothing to do with Loughner.
You conflated two completely different things, leveraging a negative that never existed, to make a political point. In doing so, you have done a disservice to your readers.
A madman shot Giffords, uninspired by Palin, uninspired by the right, uninspired by the GOP, uninspired by anyone save for his demons. Those are the facts. Pure and simple.
Horrible of you not to edit the opinion accordingly.
This is why many on the right argue that "fake news" is a problem.
I challenge you to fix it...again...and correctly this time.
29
The Times' original version of this editorial displays either shocking ignorance or the editors willfully chose to digrace themselves. Your readers deserve far better than mindless particianship or a pathetic attempt at equivalence, given this horrific act. While the correction that now appears is important and barely adequate, the original version of the editorial should never have appeared. How profoundly disappointingly.
24
I get the Times to get a different view of the world from the Wall Street. I am not a leftist of conservative, a democrat or republican.
Over the last months I have heard from your editors that the paper would make inroads into less jaded opinion - ideas that strike closer the honesty, not beautiful writing without substance.
Loughner's maps were available from democrats and Ms. Palin. And oh, by the way, he was nuts.
I am praying that yesterday's shooting was by another nut and we can exclude his enumerated political touches.
Here's the deal with NYT. I need your paper to be the intelligent source of the left, not the jaded, truth-shaving, paper of record for the Trump Derangement Syndrome.
Over the last months I have heard from your editors that the paper would make inroads into less jaded opinion - ideas that strike closer the honesty, not beautiful writing without substance.
Loughner's maps were available from democrats and Ms. Palin. And oh, by the way, he was nuts.
I am praying that yesterday's shooting was by another nut and we can exclude his enumerated political touches.
Here's the deal with NYT. I need your paper to be the intelligent source of the left, not the jaded, truth-shaving, paper of record for the Trump Derangement Syndrome.
24
Boy, that was some correction!! Totally negated the point you were trying to make, and again showed your haste to be biased overwhelming your fact-checking. And you got rid of the public editor? Fire the editorial staff to free up funds to rehire him!
17
The correction is not enough. The Times --its newspeople, and particularly its publisher-- must decide whether its "tone" is traditional, responsibly left-of-center, or whether it is irretrievably a hard-left propaganda sheet. To some extent, this is a business decision; to some extent it is a Sulzberger family decision. The family has always set the tone; historically to its credit, far less so in recent times. A great patrimony being put at risk.
18
The Times Editorial Board pushes the debunked story claiming that Rep. Giffords was shot because Sarah Palin published a map to her location - and they wonder why they get called "fake news."
The most dangerous thing produced by his election cycle is the loss of objectivity from the 4th estate and formerly vaunted institutions like the NYT and Washington Post. We might as well be reading Pravda.
The most dangerous thing produced by his election cycle is the loss of objectivity from the 4th estate and formerly vaunted institutions like the NYT and Washington Post. We might as well be reading Pravda.
23
Your "Correction" leaves much to be desired. Aren't journalists supposed to check their "facts" before they are printed? I know it may be a new idea for NYT, but maybe your writers need a brush up class on Journalism 101? Think about what are country and what are families & friends have gone through:
A vicious attack on our lawmakers that are regular people with families like us.
An attack out in San Francisco where 4 people lost their lives.
Otto Warmbier comes home to his family in a coma after going through God knows what by a 3rd country run by an awful regime.
Our friends across the ocean in the UK - multiple terrorist attacks and now a horrible fire where who knows how many lives have been lost.
Look at all the families, friends & our neighbors that are hurting right now from these few examples. We don't need to be attacking each other. We are all people just trying to make it from one day to the next caring for our loves ones, friends & neighbors. We are tired of ALL of the media's senseless garbage trying to pit person against person. Stirring up people's emotions just cuz we don't all think the same. Aren't we all hurting enough? Are you trying to cause more violence by what you are writing? Can't you for once just stop the blame game?
A vicious attack on our lawmakers that are regular people with families like us.
An attack out in San Francisco where 4 people lost their lives.
Otto Warmbier comes home to his family in a coma after going through God knows what by a 3rd country run by an awful regime.
Our friends across the ocean in the UK - multiple terrorist attacks and now a horrible fire where who knows how many lives have been lost.
Look at all the families, friends & our neighbors that are hurting right now from these few examples. We don't need to be attacking each other. We are all people just trying to make it from one day to the next caring for our loves ones, friends & neighbors. We are tired of ALL of the media's senseless garbage trying to pit person against person. Stirring up people's emotions just cuz we don't all think the same. Aren't we all hurting enough? Are you trying to cause more violence by what you are writing? Can't you for once just stop the blame game?
19
Correction: June 15, 2017
An earlier version of this editorial incorrectly stated that a link existed between political incitement and the 2011 shooting of Representative Gabby Giffords. In fact, no such link was established. The editorial has also been updated to clarify that in a map distributed by a political action committee before that shooting, electoral districts, not Democratic lawmakers, were depicted beneath stylized cross hairs.
An earlier version of this editorial incorrectly stated that a link existed between political incitement and the 2011 shooting of Representative Gabby Giffords. In fact, no such link was established. The editorial has also been updated to clarify that in a map distributed by a political action committee before that shooting, electoral districts, not Democratic lawmakers, were depicted beneath stylized cross hairs.
5
NYT editorial board, Looks like you all didn't see that elephant in your newsroom.
13
The moderates (even though I think it's most of us) have been shut out of the discussion.
There's plenty of anti-conservative sentiment here, but I will share some misgivings that I have about the Left:
-just how much of a tax rate is acceptable before it becomes confiscatory? I assume most of you would agree that 100% is too high, but where is the line? I'm in agreement with concerns about income inequality, but when you refuse to articulate any line that you would draw at redirecting wealth, I'm concerned.
-how much debt is too much? Are we really that sure that any rollbacks of regulatory oversight and accompanying government employees is going to lead to chaos? To illustrate, my wife is in the pre-school field. We're paying a well meaning bureaucrat in my state to come up with rules requiring teachers to brush all kids teeth in the middle of the day. Multiply that instance ten thousand fold, at all levels of government.
-do immigration laws matter at all? Does the fact that a specific population does not have the obstacle of an ocean mean that immigration laws don't apply to them? Ought we repeal the immigration laws? By posing the questions, am I xenophobic?
-does it not matter that most terrorist attacks worldwide are committed in the name of Islam? Even given that most people of the Muslim faith abhor terrorism, should I not be concerned about terrorists or support terrorism? Should I ignore that a significant segment is in sympathy with imposing sharia law?
There's plenty of anti-conservative sentiment here, but I will share some misgivings that I have about the Left:
-just how much of a tax rate is acceptable before it becomes confiscatory? I assume most of you would agree that 100% is too high, but where is the line? I'm in agreement with concerns about income inequality, but when you refuse to articulate any line that you would draw at redirecting wealth, I'm concerned.
-how much debt is too much? Are we really that sure that any rollbacks of regulatory oversight and accompanying government employees is going to lead to chaos? To illustrate, my wife is in the pre-school field. We're paying a well meaning bureaucrat in my state to come up with rules requiring teachers to brush all kids teeth in the middle of the day. Multiply that instance ten thousand fold, at all levels of government.
-do immigration laws matter at all? Does the fact that a specific population does not have the obstacle of an ocean mean that immigration laws don't apply to them? Ought we repeal the immigration laws? By posing the questions, am I xenophobic?
-does it not matter that most terrorist attacks worldwide are committed in the name of Islam? Even given that most people of the Muslim faith abhor terrorism, should I not be concerned about terrorists or support terrorism? Should I ignore that a significant segment is in sympathy with imposing sharia law?
17
Cops, soldiers, guards, certain occupation should be allowed to carry guns. Everyone should have the right to posses a revolver or shotgun in his or her home or property. There is no legitimate reason to possess a military weapon or one with a magazine that holds more than 7 rounds or fires on full auto, If you possess a gun licensed or not in any place of public accomoadtion, street or highway you will have committed a felony with a fine of $50.000 and 7 years in jail if you were not also committing another crime in which case it is 7 years plus double the sentence for the underlying crime. This is my idea of a very stiff penalty for possessing a gun in a public place. The NRA will never let it pass; but if it did and was enforced. gun violence would drop like a rock. On the other hand we could make sellers of high capacity weapons and assault rifles liable for the damage that the is done with the weapons and that requires that ever weapon must have a registered owner and if there is a sale and the buyer does not register the new owner than he remains liable for its use. This applies to the right wing and the left wing.
2
It is sad that immediately we see people going political and pointing fingers at each other. This was a terrible event! Shaking your finger and blaming each other solves NOTHING. It just gives us the climate for more of the same. I have to say, I was pleased that Trump did not go that route. I hope he that doesn't. We need unity not division. But unity does not mean we all lock-step to one drumbeat. It is messy and uncomfortable to listen to different views, and that will someday have to happen at the community level if we want to stop these mass shootings.
2
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple and wrong.-HL Mencken
HL Mencken was quite tuned into the human condition.
Mencken also said: "Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."
Hodgkinson lived through when America was great and saw how America has been diminished by a rigged economic system and began "slitting throats".
The politicians will look at this and decide if they tone down the rhetoric America will staunch the bleeding and be great again.
Like Mencken said, "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple and wrong."
As the politicians continue to run the economy for the well to do while basically putting forward policies that harm the middle class, and brought about Trump these things will only continue. i don't condone the violence but I understand it as we continue on the path of four decades worth of economic policies rigged by the politicians for their campaign cash donors.
HL Mencken was quite tuned into the human condition.
Mencken also said: "Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."
Hodgkinson lived through when America was great and saw how America has been diminished by a rigged economic system and began "slitting throats".
The politicians will look at this and decide if they tone down the rhetoric America will staunch the bleeding and be great again.
Like Mencken said, "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple and wrong."
As the politicians continue to run the economy for the well to do while basically putting forward policies that harm the middle class, and brought about Trump these things will only continue. i don't condone the violence but I understand it as we continue on the path of four decades worth of economic policies rigged by the politicians for their campaign cash donors.
1
Things were never O.K. at the Okay Corral, in the early Western frontier.
Never were, never will be in our frontiers.
Never were, never will be in our frontiers.
1
I don't feel blessed to be American and do not believe we are allowing our children to grow up in a safe nation. We have become the worst kind of "banana republic" where guns are easily available but medicine, education and equal rights for all religions and races is difficult to provide. We have become the nation that others have traditionally fled to come to our shores but we no longer provide a safe refuge . It is awful that congressmen (looked like all white men) were shot at while peacefully playing ball but is it any surprise??
2
I live in a neighborhood that is almost entirely immigrants from around the world, many Muslims, Africans, Carribeans. On the whole, they seem very happy to be here. I agree this country has a lot of problems, but so do most countries. Let's not give up to despair. There's still much to love about America.
The GOP is planning to remove over 25 million Americans from their health insurance and we are questioning motive? I think we all know - this is just the beginning of a very painful tragedy and/or series of events. I hate to say this- but I think there will be more...
4
The aren't removing anyone. They are repealing the mandate and 23 million America will choose not to buy health insurance. See the difference?
9
Correct!
When our founding father's wrote the second amendment guns were muzzle loaded single shot guns. They wrote the amendment not knowing that we'd make anything like a machine gun or a rifle that can fire as many rounds as a person can load, carry and shoot . . . We should limit all guns to a single round at a time . . . strict constructionists are bound to love the irony, hmm?
1
I was with you until that last sentence.
1
When they wrote the First Amendment, they knew nothing of word processors, email, the internet, broadcasting or social media. Let's roll both back to 1776.
The US has 270,000,000 firearms. Action not lip service is the only thing that will stop the carnage. Take away those guns so everyone can be safe like Australia.
2
Since WWII, America has remained a nation of violence. Year after year, decade after decade.
Whatever the problem, the solution is invade, kill, destroy, etc.
So our people learn how to "resolve" problems.
They do it, too.
And politicans seem surprised.
Really?
Whatever the problem, the solution is invade, kill, destroy, etc.
So our people learn how to "resolve" problems.
They do it, too.
And politicans seem surprised.
Really?
4
Well, assassinations of politicians have a long history in this country. But every time it happened, each politically-motivated shooting bore a testament to an unusual time.
Trump has encouraged mean spirited violence again and again and again. Beginning way back when. And through his campaign and as "so called president."
There are many people in this country that like the "red meat" he throws around, but it must not stand. Ever!
He is an unwell man and needs to be removed from his stolen position.
There are many people in this country that like the "red meat" he throws around, but it must not stand. Ever!
He is an unwell man and needs to be removed from his stolen position.
3
Where were all of those 'good guys with guns'? It took police to stop this guy, not some militia.
1
Our pop culture is destroying us. One of the networks is going to run a show. It's plot line is a asteroid is going to strike the earth and destroy it. Says the voice over "What would you rather do: Date a hot girl or save the world? There are very few movies that don't feature hero's super or otherwise saving the world. We are conditioned by the media to be hero's and we hero's need to save the world.
But does the world need saving?
But does the world need saving?
How horribly ironic that these most ardent proponents of Open Carry and other loose gun laws were themselves hunted down by a deranged sniper. They probably never thought guns might be turned on them, just wimpy Liberals perhaps.
It may take terrible tragedies like this to start the process of re-uniting as a people. You have to wonder, after this mayhem, how do these hard core conservatives feel about everyone having guns now?
It may take terrible tragedies like this to start the process of re-uniting as a people. You have to wonder, after this mayhem, how do these hard core conservatives feel about everyone having guns now?
5
The right to bear arms is a vague statement. When the 2nd amendment was drafted it took 15 seconds to reload a gun. Today automatic weapons can drain a 30 round magazine in 15 seconds. They are weapons of mass destruction. What's the NRA's position on "good guys" with nuclear bombs? My right to life far exceeds your right to own an automatic weapon or a nuclear bomb.
The only way to make intelligent policy is gather the data on gun violence and analyze it but the NRA ontrolled GOP has shut that down for the past 20 years.
The only way to make intelligent policy is gather the data on gun violence and analyze it but the NRA ontrolled GOP has shut that down for the past 20 years.
4
The NYT has once again, politicized a tragedy and turned this particular one into mainly a gun control issue. The NYT has contributed to the sharply degraded political rhetoric of this country in a fantastically great way, much like Fox has. NYT has proven once again, that it is a part of the problem, not a part of the solution.
11
This is simply the next step after Democrats tolerated violence at Berkeley and Middlebury. The party's leadership has taken the position that political violence is acceptable when directed at whomever liberals hate that day. It is a tiny step from ordering police to stand down in the face of leftist mobs to outright murder.
11
If very much appreciate the NYT correcting the overreach attempted in the previous editorial incorrectly linking the shooting of Gabby Giffords to Republican political rhetoric. Our political biases can lead us o draw conclusions we shouldn't and it takes real courage to admit it and issue a mea culpa. Thank you.
2
They had no choice. It was such a glaring, no-fact checking, we forgot journalism 101 error, plus it was instantly obvious to thousands of readers that it was not just wrong but incredibly biased. And people wonder why the NYTs is called fake news when it comes to politics? An unforgivable error by a once premier institution.
12
Reading these comments and reading the article just shows that no one learned anything from the shooting. Trying to somehow blame Republicans (I'm not a Republican) for what happened yesterday is vile and tacky, especially when people on the Left couldn't even wait ONE day to attack and cause yet even more hatred. I have to say that most (by a large number/I have been keeping track of all of the violence) of the violence has come from the Left, yet the MSM never seems to cover it. The MSM needs to figure out a way to curb their extreme bias and report evenly and fairly without lying, omitting, or censoring their content. I talk to someone every day who is completely clueless regarding recent events...it's because they are being told about them. I hope the MSM is capable of becoming unbiased and professional because, right now, they are an embarrassment when they could be so much better. At least the NYT changed this article that they got so heinously wrong.
10
Republicans are pro-guns in America. Democrats want to limit gun ownership.
The killing of children in Newtown did not change the NRA and Republican views about guns. Daily killing of over 90 Americans does not change NRA or Republican views about guns.
Voters must remove Republicans from office to change this sad American reality. Vote out all Republicans.
The killing of children in Newtown did not change the NRA and Republican views about guns. Daily killing of over 90 Americans does not change NRA or Republican views about guns.
Voters must remove Republicans from office to change this sad American reality. Vote out all Republicans.
5
The Second Amendment guarantees the right of the people to hear arms because we needed a well regulated militia for our security. However, we no longer need to call up guys to bring their muskets to fight the Red Coats. Legal militias have been replaced by the armed services and various local,state,and federal police forces. Therefore, the absolute right of the people to bear arms is moot. State and local entities may have the right to limit arms purchase and sales. Definitely, unstable individuals should not be allowed to purchase or use weapons
7
Unfortunately, the lack of empathy. and identification of a great number of our "Public Servants" with the plight of the poor and middle class has led many frustrated , zealous advocates of "Real Social Change" to turn to violence in order to be heard! When will our "Public Servants" serve the people who elected them by working towards the Common Good?
2
How could you justify this horrific act by saying that it was the politics of the victims that justified them being attacked..You have no sense of reason nor dignity..Nothing and I repeat NOTHING excuses this murderous act against an innocent man who was a faithful servant of his country..I pray Steve Scalise fully recovers..You never even mentioned his name!
And as the result of this attack, instead of doing the right thing and imposing stricter gun regulations, Congress will just approve bodyguards for everyone who works there. Like their healthcare, they will ensure that they have gold plated protection for themselves, but leave the rest of us to fend for ourselves.
Weren't the guys being shot at yesterday the very ones who only a few months ago so proudly repealed the legislation forbidding the seriously mentally ill from possessing firearms? And my reading of the events as they happened indicated that they all ran for the dugouts and hid, leaving Scalise badly wounded on the field crawling for his life and the heroic Capitol Police rushing the gunman. Absolutely no sympathy here.
Weren't the guys being shot at yesterday the very ones who only a few months ago so proudly repealed the legislation forbidding the seriously mentally ill from possessing firearms? And my reading of the events as they happened indicated that they all ran for the dugouts and hid, leaving Scalise badly wounded on the field crawling for his life and the heroic Capitol Police rushing the gunman. Absolutely no sympathy here.
16
Is this the start of an American Revolution of angry old white men?
5
The Republican Party started a class war decades ago, now they feign shock that bullets are flying? The party of evil has given themselves gold-plated health insurance while trying do destroy what few rights ordinary Americans have. And I can't help laughing that the Rep's advocacy of easy gun ownership has bitten them.
1
Based on the comments i have read, the NYT has not learned anything.
22
The shooter had a rifle. He was able to double squeeze his trigger. Even if the congressmen had semi-automatic Glocks, they didn't match his fire power. Were they going to try to lay down covering fire, outflank him, and gun him down from behind? They're watching too much NCIS. Civilian Americans aren't trained to deal with these incidents - this is the job of law enforcement. Thankfully Steve Scalise is still alive and may he recover speedily. And we all should salute the Capital officers and Alexandria police who saved the congressman's lives. This isn't the time to to give the NRA a free lobbying opportunity to create a society like Iraq or Libya, with guns everywhere in everybody's hands. See how safe they are.
14
Read the comments in the NYT's about Trump. Kathy Griffith, need I say more. Shakespeare in the Park murdering Trump. The vitriol and hate expressed by the left against Trump borders on Psychosis and clearly pushes the unbalanced and young to violence, be it Berkley or Middlebury or in this case the Congressional Ball Field. I smile when I real liberals with their "hair on fire" but it is not funny anymore. Liberals have to decide whether they are loyal Americans or Political Jihadists that hate anyone that disagrees with them and are willing to do violence to them.
The lefts fixation on gun laws as a cause for violence is so easily disproved. Every high crime city has a Democrat Mayor and strict gun laws.
In Phoenix where I live there were a series of car jackings with violence done to the drivers until a truck driver pulled out a gun and shot the perpetrator, magic no more car jackings. If more people carried guns and were trained appropriately, there would be less "sheep" for the criminals to shear and they would be taking a risk in accosting an innocent."repeatedly shown".
Evil will always find a way and good is always at a disadvantage.
I propose that liberals that don't want guns put a sign in front of their house and say such, celebrities that don't want guns not to have armed guards, etc. Liberals really don't believe the things they say or they would walk the walk. Just like with "climate change" that is just not going to happen.
The lefts fixation on gun laws as a cause for violence is so easily disproved. Every high crime city has a Democrat Mayor and strict gun laws.
In Phoenix where I live there were a series of car jackings with violence done to the drivers until a truck driver pulled out a gun and shot the perpetrator, magic no more car jackings. If more people carried guns and were trained appropriately, there would be less "sheep" for the criminals to shear and they would be taking a risk in accosting an innocent."repeatedly shown".
Evil will always find a way and good is always at a disadvantage.
I propose that liberals that don't want guns put a sign in front of their house and say such, celebrities that don't want guns not to have armed guards, etc. Liberals really don't believe the things they say or they would walk the walk. Just like with "climate change" that is just not going to happen.
20
I sometimes peruse Breitbart or other right-wing publications to see their slant on a story. The comments sections are particularly hateful, and vicious. Today, I read comments alluding to killing liberals because of the attack at the baseball field. One person wrote that if Trump is found guilty of obstruction of justice they were going to let loose. Do you read anything like that here in the NYT comments?
Regarding being a loyal American, Liberals don't steal Supreme Court seats. They don't find ways to kick people off voter rolls (like the elderly, students, minorities) so they can win elections. They don't tear down judges, our judicial system, and our allies, and fawn over every dictator out there. All that behavior is anti-American.
Regarding global warming, 99 % of all climate researchers, including those from NASA, concur the science is sound. Republicans are the only entity in the entire world that don't believe in this science: but many Republicans believe dinosaurs and humans roamed the earth together. Funny, how when you drive a car, or go to a doctor, or use a phone, you are fine with that kind of science. Unlike you, our military is not pretending global warming doesn't exist, see " U.S. Navy bracing for climate change" article among countless others.
For decades, right wing media has pushed a message of hatred and fear of liberals. Over the years I have received many obvious fake news emails from conservative family and friends.
Regarding being a loyal American, Liberals don't steal Supreme Court seats. They don't find ways to kick people off voter rolls (like the elderly, students, minorities) so they can win elections. They don't tear down judges, our judicial system, and our allies, and fawn over every dictator out there. All that behavior is anti-American.
Regarding global warming, 99 % of all climate researchers, including those from NASA, concur the science is sound. Republicans are the only entity in the entire world that don't believe in this science: but many Republicans believe dinosaurs and humans roamed the earth together. Funny, how when you drive a car, or go to a doctor, or use a phone, you are fine with that kind of science. Unlike you, our military is not pretending global warming doesn't exist, see " U.S. Navy bracing for climate change" article among countless others.
For decades, right wing media has pushed a message of hatred and fear of liberals. Over the years I have received many obvious fake news emails from conservative family and friends.
7
"An earlier version of this editorial incorrectly stated that a link existed between political incitement and the 2011 shooting of Representative Gabby Giffords. In fact, no such link was established."
Oh yeah, that's right. This is the SECOND time we have intentionally published this lie, and been called out for doing so.
But it's OK because we had it out there long enough to do the damage we wanted it to do.
30
To me your belated correction is not good enough - your original version contained a destructive lie - long debunked - making your repetition of the lie discretey disappear is not fair to Palin or your readers.
31
Sarah Palin has The Truth on her side, along with really good lawyers
4
Don't think fanatical equals deranged, but regardless, thank goodness the assailent wasn't a sharp shooter.
Also, kudos to whoever wrote the president's speech, and thank goodness he stuck to the script.
It is ironic however to hear someone who has done nothing up til now except encourage divisiveness say that.
Also, kudos to whoever wrote the president's speech, and thank goodness he stuck to the script.
It is ironic however to hear someone who has done nothing up til now except encourage divisiveness say that.
5
I won't have guns in my house, although I grew up with them.
My father was a lifetime member of the NRA and he kept an arsenal in his gun lockers in the basement.
As he pointed out, if you stopped the manufacture and sale of all guns today, there would still be two guns for every man, woman and child in the country. And guns do not grow old. You can bury them in the back yard and dig them up and use them years later.
In the Army, they count the number of rounds each soldier is issued for the firing range. They are afraid someone will save a round for the drill instructor, so you'd better return 12 shell casings if you were issued 12 bullets.
There may be something similar workable for the civilian sphere.
It does seem a little chastening now that the shooter was apparently sympathetic to the left--before we could simply write off the shooter as a right wing lunatic. Right wing. Lunatic. Guns. All of a feather.
Does make one realize the gun lovers have a point about expanding a single shooter into a general policy can be maddening.
The guy was unhinged.
Unfortunately, in this country the unhinged have access to weapons which make them lethal to high numbers.
The lunatic who shot Garfield comes to mind in this case.
John Wilkes Booth, it must be remember was a drama queen lunatic. Sic Semper Tyrannis indeed.
America has been a violent land since (and likely before) White men arrived.
My father was a lifetime member of the NRA and he kept an arsenal in his gun lockers in the basement.
As he pointed out, if you stopped the manufacture and sale of all guns today, there would still be two guns for every man, woman and child in the country. And guns do not grow old. You can bury them in the back yard and dig them up and use them years later.
In the Army, they count the number of rounds each soldier is issued for the firing range. They are afraid someone will save a round for the drill instructor, so you'd better return 12 shell casings if you were issued 12 bullets.
There may be something similar workable for the civilian sphere.
It does seem a little chastening now that the shooter was apparently sympathetic to the left--before we could simply write off the shooter as a right wing lunatic. Right wing. Lunatic. Guns. All of a feather.
Does make one realize the gun lovers have a point about expanding a single shooter into a general policy can be maddening.
The guy was unhinged.
Unfortunately, in this country the unhinged have access to weapons which make them lethal to high numbers.
The lunatic who shot Garfield comes to mind in this case.
John Wilkes Booth, it must be remember was a drama queen lunatic. Sic Semper Tyrannis indeed.
America has been a violent land since (and likely before) White men arrived.
2
I find it interesting that several friends and acquaintances of Hodgkinson descried as just a "normal guy." To them, he WAS normal. Normal in that he has been indoctrinated into the grievance industry for many years. Angry at the rich, angry at Republicans, angry, angry, angry. His online presence is no different than hundreds of thousands of deranged liberals in this country who just can't accept that their precious Hillary lost. How could this be? It must be from collusion or the Russians or SOMETHING! Fact is, this guy IS normal. For a liberal. And therein lies the problem.
16
It has become painfully offensive to see Trump cited for any perspective on current events of any kind. The man is overwhelmingly unwanted and resented, starting with his loss of the popular vote. By now his ugly, consistent LIES have eradicated his minuscule credibility and his babbling nonsense literally raises questions of his mental stability. On top of all that, he is an obvious criminal who is awkwardly and desperately exploiting his privileged position to evade justice.
So I recoil at the statement "President Trump said just the right thing...", especially in this context. I immediately think back to his remarks in his speech to the NRA convention, for example, "...we have news that you’ve been waiting for for a long time: The eight-year assault on your Second Amendment freedoms has come to a crashing end." And his words of praise: "We have some incredible pro-Second Amendment governors here at the NRA conference, including Governor Scott of Florida...Governor Bryant of Mississippi... Governor Deal of Georgia...Senator David Perdue...Senator Ted Cruz..."
Trump, his family, and congressional Republicans have created a nationwide environment of dark, negative emotions. That, as we can see, is dangerous. And for that reason, just the right thing for Trump to do now is shut up and go away.
So I recoil at the statement "President Trump said just the right thing...", especially in this context. I immediately think back to his remarks in his speech to the NRA convention, for example, "...we have news that you’ve been waiting for for a long time: The eight-year assault on your Second Amendment freedoms has come to a crashing end." And his words of praise: "We have some incredible pro-Second Amendment governors here at the NRA conference, including Governor Scott of Florida...Governor Bryant of Mississippi... Governor Deal of Georgia...Senator David Perdue...Senator Ted Cruz..."
Trump, his family, and congressional Republicans have created a nationwide environment of dark, negative emotions. That, as we can see, is dangerous. And for that reason, just the right thing for Trump to do now is shut up and go away.
8
I am disappointed in the New York Times. I can't believe that the editorial board signed off on an editorial with an inaccurate reference to the debunked Palin-map/Giffords-shooting connection. It is good that there is a correction up now, but damage to credibility was done. In a time when there is so much mistrust of the media, I expect more careful work. Maybe take a breath and/or use a second set of eyes before you push "publish" on these things.
23
Instead of arming everyone to protect against politically crazed killers, why not just cut down the constant, non-stop hatred of our President by the "fake news"?
14
People don't dislike trump because something the media has done. They dislike him because of what he says and does.
They don't like hearing some old guy say he barged into the dressing room at the Miss American Teen pageant to purposely catch underage girls in states of undress. They don't like hearing him incite violence at his rallies. They don't like seeing someone make fun of handicapped people. They don't like hearing him say that Sen. McCain is a loser because he was a POW. They don't like hearing him compare his sacrifice as a businessman with the sacrifice by gold star parents, and on, and on, and on and on.....
They don't like hearing some old guy say he barged into the dressing room at the Miss American Teen pageant to purposely catch underage girls in states of undress. They don't like hearing him incite violence at his rallies. They don't like seeing someone make fun of handicapped people. They don't like hearing him say that Sen. McCain is a loser because he was a POW. They don't like hearing him compare his sacrifice as a businessman with the sacrifice by gold star parents, and on, and on, and on and on.....
4
So this conservative lawmaker believes that if only he had a gun strapped on his hip, while taking batting practice, no less, he would be as safe as the 135, presumably armed, police officers who were murdered last year?
6
This editorial is not even fake history, it is a lie. Loughner was a paranoid schizophrenic who fixated on Giffords in 2007, before Sarah Palin was even known nationally. There is no indication that 'right wing' or for that matter 'left wing' politics motivated Loughner, it was a perceived personal slight from Giffords that drove him. This is well documented by real news sites, including the Arizona Star. Example, from their reporting on the FBI report into Loughner
"Early on, investigators realized Loughner was more likely a demented young man acting alone than a terrorist or member of any conspiracy.
His internet postings, including bizarre YouTube videos, suggested a mental breakdown."
"Early on, investigators realized Loughner was more likely a demented young man acting alone than a terrorist or member of any conspiracy.
His internet postings, including bizarre YouTube videos, suggested a mental breakdown."
25
You can kill the shooter but you can't kill the seething rage of the gun lobby in the United States.
3
One is a violent act. The other is silent. The first is with a weapon. The second is with a vote. How do republicans justify getting rid of health insurance for millions that will lead to any number of preventable deaths and yet get their knickers all twisted when a deranged person pulls a trigger? What is the difference?
5
"President Trump said just the right thing after the attack on Wednesday"
He may have, but before the end of the year, he will deny having said it.
He may have, but before the end of the year, he will deny having said it.
3
I have a question.
Given that certain people must immediately be rendered incapable of action because of the immediate threat they pose to others, and, that knowledge of the means to immediately diminish our capacity to act or to induce transitory paralysis is available, is it necessary that the police kill violent persons? Is it not odd that so many are killed, and then, the press, the police, the intelligence services, and the public wonder, "What was his or her motive?" "Was he or she deranged?" "Is this act of violent the result of non-State conspiracy, or the act of a hostile State?" Would it not be more humane and of greater service to society and the State to render assailants helpless, and then, to bring them to justice?
Given that certain people must immediately be rendered incapable of action because of the immediate threat they pose to others, and, that knowledge of the means to immediately diminish our capacity to act or to induce transitory paralysis is available, is it necessary that the police kill violent persons? Is it not odd that so many are killed, and then, the press, the police, the intelligence services, and the public wonder, "What was his or her motive?" "Was he or she deranged?" "Is this act of violent the result of non-State conspiracy, or the act of a hostile State?" Would it not be more humane and of greater service to society and the State to render assailants helpless, and then, to bring them to justice?
2
In this case I believe that Hodgkinson received justice in a much more efficient way than if he had gone through a multi-year process of conviction for murder, and endless appeals of his death sentence.
1
June 15, 2017
Quote:
"But he who greatly excels in beauty, strength, birth, or wealth, or on the other hand who is very poor , or very weak, or very much disgraced, finds it difficult to follow rational principle" (Aristotle, Politics, Book 4, 4.11).
Interpretation: Politics were to be directed by those who had great beauty, strength, birth, and wealth and not of those who did not qualify.
Analysis: According to Aristotle, politics were to be run by the rich. This was because the Patricians possessed all of the positive qualities of life: education, wealth, and lineage. Aristotle believed that government was meant to be run by the upper class, or the superior people. The Patricians also had lineage of higher citizens in Rome, which the Plebeians did not. The Plebeians did not have education on the same level as the Patricians because they did not have the wealth the upper class did. The money they had went to necessities instead of learning. Aristotle also believed that without the education, the Plebeians were unable to be civilized in politics. This proved that it was important to be able to be rational when in a position of power and government in Rome. The Patricians and the Plebeians contrasted in possessive qualities in life and they also had different views based on these qualities, which the conflict of these two classes derived from.
http://ancienthistoryromanrepublc.weebly.com/quotes.html
JJA Manhattan, N.Y.
Quote:
"But he who greatly excels in beauty, strength, birth, or wealth, or on the other hand who is very poor , or very weak, or very much disgraced, finds it difficult to follow rational principle" (Aristotle, Politics, Book 4, 4.11).
Interpretation: Politics were to be directed by those who had great beauty, strength, birth, and wealth and not of those who did not qualify.
Analysis: According to Aristotle, politics were to be run by the rich. This was because the Patricians possessed all of the positive qualities of life: education, wealth, and lineage. Aristotle believed that government was meant to be run by the upper class, or the superior people. The Patricians also had lineage of higher citizens in Rome, which the Plebeians did not. The Plebeians did not have education on the same level as the Patricians because they did not have the wealth the upper class did. The money they had went to necessities instead of learning. Aristotle also believed that without the education, the Plebeians were unable to be civilized in politics. This proved that it was important to be able to be rational when in a position of power and government in Rome. The Patricians and the Plebeians contrasted in possessive qualities in life and they also had different views based on these qualities, which the conflict of these two classes derived from.
http://ancienthistoryromanrepublc.weebly.com/quotes.html
JJA Manhattan, N.Y.
2
We are a nation with 400 million firearms, with 25 million new ones sold to the public annually in recent years. Gun control is a horse that left the barn years ago.
We are a nation which invades other nations for no good reason, kills the inhabitants, and destroys the civilian authorities to such an extent that sectarian murders are carried out in the tens of thousands, e.g., Afghanistan and Iraq and Syria.
We are a nation which sells loads of munitions to our purported allies, who model our behavior and indiscriminately kill masses of civilians in neighboring countries, e.g., Saudi Arabia bombing Yemen. Of course, we righteously complain when the countries we sell planes, drones, missiles and bombs to misuse them according to the very example we set.
We are a nation which supports non-democratic, one-man regimes to protect our oil supply line, situating overseas military bases in such countries--which kill their own people when they protest, e.g., Bahrain.
The American government is brutish, and callous, when it comes to spilling the blood of foreigners. Our government's priority--Republicans and Democrats--is spending $350 million per plane for each F-35 versus using our taxes to help people here and abroad?
I am not surprised we are a violent people given the model adopted to determine our actions, one which only pays lip service to the value of life. I am just surprised we don't kill each other more often.
We are a nation which invades other nations for no good reason, kills the inhabitants, and destroys the civilian authorities to such an extent that sectarian murders are carried out in the tens of thousands, e.g., Afghanistan and Iraq and Syria.
We are a nation which sells loads of munitions to our purported allies, who model our behavior and indiscriminately kill masses of civilians in neighboring countries, e.g., Saudi Arabia bombing Yemen. Of course, we righteously complain when the countries we sell planes, drones, missiles and bombs to misuse them according to the very example we set.
We are a nation which supports non-democratic, one-man regimes to protect our oil supply line, situating overseas military bases in such countries--which kill their own people when they protest, e.g., Bahrain.
The American government is brutish, and callous, when it comes to spilling the blood of foreigners. Our government's priority--Republicans and Democrats--is spending $350 million per plane for each F-35 versus using our taxes to help people here and abroad?
I am not surprised we are a violent people given the model adopted to determine our actions, one which only pays lip service to the value of life. I am just surprised we don't kill each other more often.
Some men seem to think that carrying a gun will turn them into John Wayne or Clint Eastwood instead of one of The Three Stooges.
3
"An American would once have been horrified and shocked by such savagery."
The Editorial Board needs to better acquaint itself with American history.
The Editorial Board needs to better acquaint itself with American history.
11
Guns are lethal, whether they are legal or not, used by liberals or conservatives. This terrible attack brings home that we need to reduce the number of guns drastically to make the world a safer place.
7
I don't endorse anyone shooting anyone - including a Congressman. But I think it's appropriate that Congressmen, Senators, and the President live in the same lethal environment that "we the people" face daily, it might help focus their attention, prioritize their interests, and incentivize their doing something to address the problems.
2
Whether it's a young, desperate teen dying in alley because she can't make decisions about her own body, or a young man being killed on the street from an unregistered firearm, or maybe a classroom of elementary school children being slaughtered for someone else's right to carry. Our politics have always been lethal, we just suddenly started to care about who was dying.
3
Sarah Palin specifically put crosshairs on Gabby Gifford's Congressional district. Ms. Gifford survived, barely, and six other people died when a mad gun man opened fire on January 8, 2011.
You have changed this editorial to sweep away the right-wing hate speech and incitement to violence.
You are doing a disservice to your readers and to our Republic.
You have changed this editorial to sweep away the right-wing hate speech and incitement to violence.
You are doing a disservice to your readers and to our Republic.
You do realize that Loughner never saw that ad, and more importantly, was either apolitical or a leftist? Don't let facts get in the way of a good story, right?
1
We are one people. We do not condone violence against each other.
A few of us are very sick, and to those who are, violence is okay.
Let's start from there. No, more guns aren't the answer. Imagine the shootout that could have happened; I don't want to.
I hope that Representative Scalise recovers, and my sympathy to his family and to the families of others who were injured there - and to the families of those whose members were killed on the other side of the country by a crazed UPS employee, and to all the others, Sandy Hook, San Bernardino, Florida, Oklahoma City - yes, that was a bomb; and it was a crazy American citizen who did that. And the others were also crazy American citizens.
Reset. Koyaanisqatsi: there is trouble in our world.
A few of us are very sick, and to those who are, violence is okay.
Let's start from there. No, more guns aren't the answer. Imagine the shootout that could have happened; I don't want to.
I hope that Representative Scalise recovers, and my sympathy to his family and to the families of others who were injured there - and to the families of those whose members were killed on the other side of the country by a crazed UPS employee, and to all the others, Sandy Hook, San Bernardino, Florida, Oklahoma City - yes, that was a bomb; and it was a crazy American citizen who did that. And the others were also crazy American citizens.
Reset. Koyaanisqatsi: there is trouble in our world.
1
I'm not a big fan of Sarah Palin, but dragging her into your editorial makes me want to say, like Joseph Welch addressing Sen. McCarthy at the Senate subcommittee in 1954: "At long last, have you left no sense of decency?" Are you so desperate to hold onto your fan base for financial support that you will pander to their lowest and vilest hatreds and biases? Have you no morals? Or is your ad revenue so desperately low that you have to say, like Mr. Doolittle in My Fair Lady: "Nah, can't afford 'em, guv'nor."
23
i always liken the idea that we should all be armed to the Wild West and the OK Corral. because, you know, no one ever got shot and killed when everyone had guns, right?
duh.
also, if your idea to keep people safe from guns is to create a crossfire, you need to check yourself and rethink what you think "keep people safe" means.
duh.
also, if your idea to keep people safe from guns is to create a crossfire, you need to check yourself and rethink what you think "keep people safe" means.
1
You know a gun owner said at one point, and I agree, that he doesn't get why there's no licensing system to own guns. I need a license to own and opperate a car and other motor vehicles, why shouldn't there be a licensing system for gun ownership? Licensing could involve doing a mental health and background check, it could involve teaching and testing prospective gun owners on the proper way to use a firearm, including regular maintenance. If you were convicted of a crime your license could be revoked. Plus if you had a physical license you could present it when buying a gun instead of having to wait for a background check.
5
Because gun ownership is a right under the Constitution, not a privilege granted by government.
11
so is free speech, but we make laws to protect society from the dangers of starting riots or yelling fire in a theater.
try again to tell me why we can't place limits on the second amendment when we do on the first all the time...
try again to tell me why we can't place limits on the second amendment when we do on the first all the time...
3
Aside from the Constitution (admittedly a triviality today), the premise of your gun-owner friend's comparison is false. You do not need a license to own a car, only to operate one on public roadways. You can own (and drive) as many cars as you want on your own property or on others' property with permission, completely unlicensed either as to vehicle registration or driver's license.
A recent survey discussing the comparative peacefulness of 160 countries around the world, America stood at 114. I think it would be safe to say that was NOT an improvement over the previous survey and who were the countries listed higher?
1
There is an old adage that if we don't know history, we are doomed to repeat it. In the early American West, ordinary people carried two six-shooters on their daily chores. But when the weekends came, these same people could be found reveling with excessive alcohol. Guns and excessive drinking don't mix, so many cities and towns in the old west passed laws that forbade anyone from coming to town with their guns on weekends. That law saved many lives, because it separated the drunkards from their guns in public places. Wouldn't it be understandable that a drunk would use his gun in a simple dispute without justification?
Today, some of our leaders (especially Trump) encourage confrontation with or without guns.
It doesn't help that some of our leaders, like President Reagan, told people that "government is the problem and not the solution." That kind of rhetoric inspires hatred toward the government itself. So sad that today many people believe they need a gun to protect themselves from their own government. How unreal.
Today, some of our leaders (especially Trump) encourage confrontation with or without guns.
It doesn't help that some of our leaders, like President Reagan, told people that "government is the problem and not the solution." That kind of rhetoric inspires hatred toward the government itself. So sad that today many people believe they need a gun to protect themselves from their own government. How unreal.
3
The shooting deaths of America pale in comparison to the genocidal fury of governments over the ages. We have the examples of the governments of Germany (and later East Germany), the Soviet Union, China, Cuba, Cambodia, Italy, Japan, North Korea, Rwanda, Turkey, and that's just in the last 100 years or so. Go back further and the list will contain at least one government in virtually every country that's ever existed.
The idea that it's "unreal" to be wary of government and dislike entrusting exclusive firepower to it alone can only root in a brain deprived of all knowledge of history.
The idea that it's "unreal" to be wary of government and dislike entrusting exclusive firepower to it alone can only root in a brain deprived of all knowledge of history.
the republicans may love america but they surely do not serve it. once again its a false equivalency to put the affiliations of the republicans on the same playing field as the democrats. time and time again the republicans have shown that they put their allegiance to party and power over the best interests of america. time and time again they have shown themselves to be enthralled to the richest 1 percent putting their interests above those of 99 percent of americans. does this mean that they deserved what they got. Probably not. but what is clear is that the viciousness of their legislative agenda at the federal and state level has engendered an equally vicious response.
3
"Probably not"? Do you not see that you are overcome by hatred of people you really know nothing about?
Is it really "vicious" for Republicans to ask that American immigration laws, democratically enacted, be enforced? Apparently for those who want open borders, it is, and that, apparently, justifies shooting us.
Is it really "vicious" for Republicans to wish to preserve their 2nd Amendment rights, while Democrats, who run the cities most engulfed in gun violence committed by Democrats against Democrats, demand that we forswear all rights of defense under the pretense that it will somehow stop Democrat gun violence?
Is it really "vicious" for Republicans to ask that American immigration laws, democratically enacted, be enforced? Apparently for those who want open borders, it is, and that, apparently, justifies shooting us.
Is it really "vicious" for Republicans to wish to preserve their 2nd Amendment rights, while Democrats, who run the cities most engulfed in gun violence committed by Democrats against Democrats, demand that we forswear all rights of defense under the pretense that it will somehow stop Democrat gun violence?
If more guns were the solution to public safety, we would already be the safest nation in the world. Instead, we have an epidemic of gun violence. The shooting of Rep. Scalise and the others is notable only because of who the victims are. Otherwise it would barely rate notice in the local news... We need to recognize gun violence for what it is - terrorism. When gun violence causes such fear that otherwise rational people believe the only way to be safe in public is to go about armed, this is terrorism. When we can recognize the effects of gun violence as "terrorist actions against the safety of the American people" instead of merely minor side effects of the Second Amendment, then we will start to have a safer and saner society. It is unfortunate that before We the People can say Enough! we will probably have to try the 'everyone armed, everywhere' first - and the victims will unfortunately not all be Congresspersons. The solution to gun violence is NOT more guns in more places.
6
f more guns were the solution to public safety, we would already be the safest nation in the world. Instead, we have an epidemic of gun violence.
====================
Actually gun violence has been declining fairly steadily for almost 25 years. The gun death rate is 50% of what it was in 1993
====================
Actually gun violence has been declining fairly steadily for almost 25 years. The gun death rate is 50% of what it was in 1993
5
Mass shootings get a lot of attention, but the fact is that the person a gun is most likely to kill is the person holding it. According to the CDC, in 2013 there were 21,334 suicides by firearm (roughly half of all suicides that year). There were 10,945 gun homicides that year. So nearly twice as many people used a gun to commit suicide than to injure someone else. Source: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm Further, of nearly 11,000 people murdered, how many were domestic partners, family members, or friends of the shooter? More guns will not solve the problems of depression, hopelessness, and domestic violence.
4
Have anybody ever found no such incidents of "friendly" gun shot killings ever reported in whole of Great Britain /Australia etc at such a scale as our beloved USA.
Why can't we build a AI for for researching out this simple question.
Why can't we build a AI for for researching out this simple question.
1
Don't believe for one second that Trump wrote the presidential response to this tragic event himself. If he had, he would have likely promoted a self-indulgent "I told you so" moment.
Further - the problem, in this case, isn't guns. The problem is the toxic political nature of "us against them" that's been created by politicians themselves. Brainless, non-thinking party pundits, anyone that dares to break with the parties current talking points is almost akin to treason. I find our current political atmosphere completely UN-American and poisonous. Sadly, events like these, I fear, will continue. Until we can finally convince politicians that were sick and tired of their petty partisan obstructionist positions, offering no ideas of their own - nothing will change.
Further - the problem, in this case, isn't guns. The problem is the toxic political nature of "us against them" that's been created by politicians themselves. Brainless, non-thinking party pundits, anyone that dares to break with the parties current talking points is almost akin to treason. I find our current political atmosphere completely UN-American and poisonous. Sadly, events like these, I fear, will continue. Until we can finally convince politicians that were sick and tired of their petty partisan obstructionist positions, offering no ideas of their own - nothing will change.
4
Tim, It's both , the toxic atmosphere and the proliferation of guns and gun ownership !
2
Chris Matthews used the phrase "in their crosshairs" in a political sense just last night, without irony or any apparent realization of how inappropriate that phrase has become, especially yesterday.
6
Can we please stop compartmentalizing these acts of violence. This one is a terrorist act because th shooter spouted ISIS rhetoric on Facebook. This other one is "politically motivated" because the guy volunteered for Bernie Sanders. Guess what? If we defeated ISIS tomorrow and toned down all the political rhetoric, the mass shootings still would not stop. It is all part of the bigger problem, which is easy access to guns. This man had a history of domestic violence. No one who knew him was surprised he was capable of this. Yet, the word in the MSM is all about his politics. Had he, instead, shot members of his family, which sounds like a likely scenario if he didn't have Trump to raise his ire, it probably wouldn't have even made the national news.
6
Fewer guns, not more guns. I don't feel safe living in a country with so many guns, it's the main thing that makes me consider moving someplace else.
2
I have taught myself, forced myself, to go over to Fox News on line once a week and see how the "other side" of journalism portraits these same events. It is an alternative "FOX, pronounced faux, universe. It's worth the trip.
When it came to yesterday's attack on the Republican baseball team, they stoked the fires of division... the attack was encouraged by liberal/Democratic lips. No mention was made of the violent infused Donald Trump rhetoric during his campaign when he offered to pay the legal bills of those who might partake in silencing his opposition. No context of the shooting. No discussion of mental illness and guns. It seemed like they were forced into doing public service announcements by putting up the calming words of Trump and Ryan with little discussion of them. Then they featured a Tucker Carlson diatribe against Democrats followed today with an interview with upstate NY House of Representative Repub Claudia Tenney about death threats and how dangerous it is to represent a district with 11 colleges (not because of the violence on campus that occasionally manifests in shootings of students but because "radical" speakers and professors might incite the students to attack her!). Tenney also had a problem with newspapers like the NY Times egging on Republicans to hold town meetings and put themselves at risk...
Visit Fox News. It will give you a clearer picture of your fellow Americans. Once you get past the gag reflex, you'll find it helpful.
When it came to yesterday's attack on the Republican baseball team, they stoked the fires of division... the attack was encouraged by liberal/Democratic lips. No mention was made of the violent infused Donald Trump rhetoric during his campaign when he offered to pay the legal bills of those who might partake in silencing his opposition. No context of the shooting. No discussion of mental illness and guns. It seemed like they were forced into doing public service announcements by putting up the calming words of Trump and Ryan with little discussion of them. Then they featured a Tucker Carlson diatribe against Democrats followed today with an interview with upstate NY House of Representative Repub Claudia Tenney about death threats and how dangerous it is to represent a district with 11 colleges (not because of the violence on campus that occasionally manifests in shootings of students but because "radical" speakers and professors might incite the students to attack her!). Tenney also had a problem with newspapers like the NY Times egging on Republicans to hold town meetings and put themselves at risk...
Visit Fox News. It will give you a clearer picture of your fellow Americans. Once you get past the gag reflex, you'll find it helpful.
6
Fox News is fair and balanced....
3
Gee, Bill really seems to understand me. I can't see why we aren't all holding hands already.
It is time for America to face what we have become...
We are a nation deeply divided. About 30% of us are racist. We are a nation that tolerates violence as we look away. We refuse to take action to address gun ownership that kills over 30,000 annually. We condone fear tactics in our news both from Fox and MSNBC. We prefer allowing gun ownership over the lives of innocent children, Newtown. Our politicians cater to the NRA over the lives of their constituents.
When I look at what we have become, I am not proud to be an American.
We are a nation deeply divided. About 30% of us are racist. We are a nation that tolerates violence as we look away. We refuse to take action to address gun ownership that kills over 30,000 annually. We condone fear tactics in our news both from Fox and MSNBC. We prefer allowing gun ownership over the lives of innocent children, Newtown. Our politicians cater to the NRA over the lives of their constituents.
When I look at what we have become, I am not proud to be an American.
3
Yeah, nothing is the fault of the Left.
6
We already have the USS Gabriel Giffords. Will the USS Steve Scalise be next? It would be nice if we would end the policy of naming ships after politicians - and that includes former presidents, even though they were the Commander in Chief.
2
So what would have them named after , dog breeds ? Imagine the USS Poodle or the USS Chihuahua . Actually not a bad idea !
Thanks for the non-apology. No link was ever established? In fact a link was established and it clearly existed well before Palin and had nothing to do with her.
6
Poisonous political rhetoric remains an issue. And the NYT should look in the mirror. After all, the paper employs a columnist, Krugman, who has called Trump "obviously mentally ill," among other things.
I'm all for freedom of speech, and for rigorous debate. But the NYT and other media should self reflect for a bit and ask, "Have we gone too far?" In the case of Trump, I think the answer is obvious.
Argue, argue well, educate us with informed opinion. But don't go playground and hurl insults out of anger and spite. We had quite enough of that from conservatives over the years.
I'm all for freedom of speech, and for rigorous debate. But the NYT and other media should self reflect for a bit and ask, "Have we gone too far?" In the case of Trump, I think the answer is obvious.
Argue, argue well, educate us with informed opinion. But don't go playground and hurl insults out of anger and spite. We had quite enough of that from conservatives over the years.
19
The Republican freak out about this incident, which won't last long, is because some white guy from Middle America with a gun was apparently listening to what they were saying. I could shoot a gun down 5th Avenue, said Trump, and they would vote for me. Maybe the Second Amendment people could look in Hillary's direction, said Trump. They own it. And now Trump blathering on about unity. What a hoot. The reality is there's nothing that can be done about the gun issue in the short run. There's too many guns out there and too many cowardly guys hiding in their basements with their arsenals. What they didn't count on is they dont own all the guns. Good luck.
4
How many rounds did he shoot and how many people did he kill? Zero, thankfully. But that fact is a good jumping off point to remind people, as a friend of mine said, people who need safe spaces to protect them from speech they dislike shouldn't start wars with people who think of their guns as members of their family.
Permissive gun laws are a big problem for our country. There were two mass shootings in one day. Only one was political. However, political rhetoric that is becoming ever more violent and decisive combined with the lax gun laws is really increasing the amount of danger we live with daily. Still, this is not our biggest nor most immediate problem. The biggest problem in America today? Today good men fight for their lives and others try to recover. Meanwhile, we have a president that, I think it is fair to say, most of our country believes cannot effectively govern. Get on with the numerous investigations into Trump, his business, Russian interference in our election and all other matters. These need to be played to rest whatever the outcome and soon. With all these matters open and all the uncertainty that they cause it is hard to see how things will become less inflamed and how any laws can be passed and our government get back to business as usual. We are in an unprecedented situation and nothing is normal. Normally our president would step up and lead the country through this but this time he is, in large part, the unprecedented situation.
“Was this attack evidence of how vicious American politics has become? Probably.”
NYT Editorial Board, respectfully, I disagree. To assign “vicious” to our politics, based on an individual’s act, no, you stretch logic too far.
“Yet he (Trump) will not help create that nation if he continues to advocate easy access to lethal weapons.”
NYT Editorial Board, I agree. The President had the right words in the crisis. And I will hold on to that, and hope that he becomes a moderating influence on the issue of access.
NYT Editorial Board, respectfully, I disagree. To assign “vicious” to our politics, based on an individual’s act, no, you stretch logic too far.
“Yet he (Trump) will not help create that nation if he continues to advocate easy access to lethal weapons.”
NYT Editorial Board, I agree. The President had the right words in the crisis. And I will hold on to that, and hope that he becomes a moderating influence on the issue of access.
4
Unfortunately many of these same Republican leaders are going to murder with the pen by depriving citizens entry into the healthcare system in favor of a trillion dollar tax break for those who don't need it. Every single citizen from the homeless to the most affluent should have a health plan equal to what to what these members enjoy. See Ezekiel Emanuel's first book Healthcare. Guaranteed for a realistic system that would do away with Obamacare, not spend more than we are already spending and build such a plan into the economy with a ten percent value added tax, this is not single payer but does the same thing. It would do away with the need for Medicaid, Medicare and 'free' emergency visits. Life , liberty and pursuit of happiness. The life part is important. Healthcare is a right not a privilege. Let's show we value life with action not words.
2
Glad to see you're taking the lead on toning down the rhetoric.
4
I have a musician friend who maintains that tone is the one characteristic that immediately announces the aptitude of any performer. If so, then the stark contrast between the tenor of the Trump White House and the one that preceded it speaks volumes about the quality of America's recent political leadership. Certainly, no elected official would take exception to the statement that "we are blessed to be Americans, that our children deserve to grow up in a nation of safety and peace.” But let us not forget, either, that only one of them was proclaiming, just a few weeks ago, that he could shoot somebody and not lose any voters.
2
Say it ain't so. I've been a dedicated reader of the Times since I was a teenager, and I've always viewed it as a great source of information and learning. The Op-Ed page is always my first stop, and although my politics are a bit more conservative, I have always valued your editorial opinions.
I have observed over the last several years that your editorials have become increasingly more one-dimensional and often show a skewed argument that relies on distorted logic. But this latest reach in how you attempt to show a similarity of two separate events solely to take a shot at those who have political views with which you disagree requires a rebuke.
Shame--there, I said it. And please try to be less emotional in developing your editorial arguments--it looks petty at best, and I'm hoping it doesn't reflect a trend away from reasoned objectivity.
I have observed over the last several years that your editorials have become increasingly more one-dimensional and often show a skewed argument that relies on distorted logic. But this latest reach in how you attempt to show a similarity of two separate events solely to take a shot at those who have political views with which you disagree requires a rebuke.
Shame--there, I said it. And please try to be less emotional in developing your editorial arguments--it looks petty at best, and I'm hoping it doesn't reflect a trend away from reasoned objectivity.
29
Taking a single incident and implying that it teaches us a clear policy lesson is a doomed enterprise. If you think guns are a problem you can interpret the event that way. If you think people should have even more access to guns (is that even possible?) then you can see it that way. Policy arguments can't rest on this kind of analysis. If you are arguing for gun reform based on this incident you are only resigning us to more endless shouting matches. Careful people have done careful work using decades worth of countrywide data. Increased gun control is correlated with a reduction in gun deaths. It doesn't mean all shootings will end. It doesn't mean that there are aren't cases where it would have been better if more people were armed. But, on balance, the effect will be to lower deaths. That's the only argument that can move this forward.
3
Political assasinations are not "gun control issues." See Abraham Lincoln, Martin Luther King and JFK for any further questions. The sad distraction of "gun control" is just an excuse from the left to try to obscure their own responsibility for directly contributing to the atmosphere of violence surrounding politics that we are experiencing today.
19
So you condemed (and still condeme) Trump's call last year for a Second Amendment Solution if Clinton was elected, and Paul Ryan's retweet that the second amendment wasn't there for people to shoot deer? Don't be a hypocrite.
I see that the NYT has changed its editorial.. "Before the shooting, Sarah Palin’s political action committee circulated a map that showed the targeted electoral districts of Ms. Giffords and 19 other Democrats under stylized cross hairs. But in that case no connection to the shooting was ever established." Funny before people complained you said "“In 2011, when Jared Lee Loughner opened fire in a supermarket parking lot, grievously wounding Representative Gabby Giffords and killing six people, including a 9-year-old girl, the link to political incitement was clear. Before the shooting, Sarah Palin’s political action committee circulated a map of targeted electoral districts that put Ms. Giffords and 19 other Democrats under stylized cross hairs,”
I find it hard to believe that the NYT didn't know these facts before it published the original version. I hate to say it but it sounds like "fake news". Perhaps the Russians did it.
I find it hard to believe that the NYT didn't know these facts before it published the original version. I hate to say it but it sounds like "fake news". Perhaps the Russians did it.
35
I take issue with the this portion of Editorial Board's final paragraph: "President Trump said just the right thing after the attack on Wednesdsay: ' we do well in times like these to remember that everyone who serves in our nation’s capital is here because, above all, they love our country.'"
If we didn't know it before, it's now clear that many of those serve in the capital have no true regard for our country except to the extent it enriches them.
If we didn't know it before, it's now clear that many of those serve in the capital have no true regard for our country except to the extent it enriches them.
5
This shooting is not about gun control or the lack of it. It is about how liberals have normalized violence against the President and conservatives (severed head, rapper style mock assassination of the President, vulgar sexual references on late night television and the violent suppression of free speech on campus). The new modality of liberal rhetoric is to start with an ad hominem attack (racist, homophobe, fascist, nationalist or white supremacist), which gives them justification to dismiss (shout down) any argument that a conservatives might make. There is no counterargument, only condemnation and resistance. This is the foundation for dehumanizing the opposition and marginalizing their rights. This also legitimizes violences against those who are deemed deplorable. The constant, almost hysterical pleading for the impeachment of the President and the superheated accusations from the left is like a lynch mob stirring up emotions to allow them to do the unthinkable, and then it happens and it will happen again, and again.
25
Alas. Everything in this comment can easily be flipped (e.g., replace "liberal" with "conservative" and "racist" with "snowflake") to create a comparably factual and equally useless comment from a Democrat about how his side has been treated by Republicans.
Can any of us ever learn to listen, to notice when we're accusing others of our own sins?
Can any of us ever learn to listen, to notice when we're accusing others of our own sins?
1
So here we have one instance where the shooter happened to have been a Sanders volunteer, and this means liberals have "normalized violence"? Let's see. How many people have been murdered working at abortion clinics or because they provided abortions? Now, let's list the number of "pro-lifers" murdered for their beliefs. Yuh. Right. And, uh, what about a guy named Tim McVeigh? I thought the problem with us liberals was that we wanted to take everybody's guns? No, the problem is we "normalize violence."
The president has an impeachable offense with his ties and admiration of Russians.
How many congressmen and senators will have to be gunned down in one incident before we get some universal restrictive gun laws????
6
How many times must a mass shooting be stopped by a legal gun owner before the left starts to respect other people's 2nd amendment rights?
3
In response to the shooting, political leaders are calling for less partisanship, yet conservative media promotes an excess. Rupert Murdoch’s New York Post shamefully exaggerates it. His cover story 6/15 and headlines, print ed.: “Target GOP”, “Left-wing zealot shoots Republican Rep”, “Lib nut wounds House whip”, “anti-Trump zealot”. 2nd story begins, “Left-wing gunman”. 2nd paragraph begins, “The Republican-hating zealot”. 3rd story, “Letting Trump haters spread venom”. 4th story, “GOPers blame Dems’ vitriol”. http://nyp.st/2rv09NH
Democrats have a long history of working well with conservatives in DC & the states. Under Tip O’Neill, Dems in Congress worked well with Reagan and got things done.
The excess partisanship began with Newt Gingrich and Republicans in Congress in the 1990s. They broke precedent and disrespected the opposite Party. Gingrich was once a history professor, but will be remembered as a source of harm to the Republic.
Republicans continued to speak disrespectfully and promote division. Trump exaggerated the vituperation and vilification. Most journalists in MSM do good work. Trump insulting journalists and political opponents and calling them “enemies of the people” is unprecedented in America.
For the past year, most of the vitriol has in fact come from Trump, his supporters, and the conservative media. No Dem promoted violence prior to the shooting, as Palin promoted gun violence against Dems prior to the shooting of Democratic Rep. Gabby Giffords.
Democrats have a long history of working well with conservatives in DC & the states. Under Tip O’Neill, Dems in Congress worked well with Reagan and got things done.
The excess partisanship began with Newt Gingrich and Republicans in Congress in the 1990s. They broke precedent and disrespected the opposite Party. Gingrich was once a history professor, but will be remembered as a source of harm to the Republic.
Republicans continued to speak disrespectfully and promote division. Trump exaggerated the vituperation and vilification. Most journalists in MSM do good work. Trump insulting journalists and political opponents and calling them “enemies of the people” is unprecedented in America.
For the past year, most of the vitriol has in fact come from Trump, his supporters, and the conservative media. No Dem promoted violence prior to the shooting, as Palin promoted gun violence against Dems prior to the shooting of Democratic Rep. Gabby Giffords.
10
I disagree that most of the vitriol has come from Trump. I have watched people on the left whom I once respected become absolutely unhinged because Trump was elected. I didn't even vote for the guy, and I live in New York which went for Hillary. As an independent I have no love for either party, but really the left are the crazy haters these days. and this is from the very article you are commenting on Correction: June 15, 2017
An earlier version of this editorial incorrectly stated that a link existed between political incitement and the 2011 shooting of Representative Gabby Giffords. In fact, no such link was established........ nice gaslighting
An earlier version of this editorial incorrectly stated that a link existed between political incitement and the 2011 shooting of Representative Gabby Giffords. In fact, no such link was established........ nice gaslighting
10
What is MSM?
"An American today would be right to be horrified — and not very surprised."
Not surprised!? Don't be disingenuous; this is different, very, very different. This was a politically motivated mass assassination attempt in the vein of the 2011 Gabby Giffords' tragedy. Yes, every mass shooting is horrifying, but this is not the same as workplace revenge or a estranged husband's revenge.
Read through the comments section in the NYT article about the shooting. There is a sickening subtext in many, many of the comments, including an NYT pick, that says those people deserved it - because, after all, they're vile, they're Republicans. A very much disgusting and a very new zeitgeist.
Don't cop out, NYT; don't deflect NYT. This is dystonian madness. This was a culture warrior taking the next inevitable step. To ignore the role that the hyper-partisan bombast and hyperbole that Americans are bombarded with everyday on television, in newspapers and in social media is the height of naivete.
Not surprised!? Don't be disingenuous; this is different, very, very different. This was a politically motivated mass assassination attempt in the vein of the 2011 Gabby Giffords' tragedy. Yes, every mass shooting is horrifying, but this is not the same as workplace revenge or a estranged husband's revenge.
Read through the comments section in the NYT article about the shooting. There is a sickening subtext in many, many of the comments, including an NYT pick, that says those people deserved it - because, after all, they're vile, they're Republicans. A very much disgusting and a very new zeitgeist.
Don't cop out, NYT; don't deflect NYT. This is dystonian madness. This was a culture warrior taking the next inevitable step. To ignore the role that the hyper-partisan bombast and hyperbole that Americans are bombarded with everyday on television, in newspapers and in social media is the height of naivete.
Pretty karmic, isn't it.
1
Think, for at least a nanosecond, about what you are really saying. Why can't liberals have empathy, too? One can only hope that the liberals who post on the Times site are not representative.
3
It is only fair to express my gratitude for your correction. Thank you.
2
Let's give credit where credit is due. Yesterday's events would not have been possible without the undying efforts of Wayne LaPierre, the NRA and their loyal supporters in Congress. Without their steadfast blockage of any sort of sane gun laws, the shooter probably wouldn't have been able to acquire the weapons he put to such effective use. Atta boy, Wayne!
6
Gee Kurt, maybe living in NY you didn't hear the hate that I have heard for some 8 years where I live. First it was Obama and much of what was said was unprintable. This past year it was antiClinton. The mildest were lock her up or jail her. The hate out there is palatable and when that happens violence is sure to follow. We are so rapped up in this insanity that I doubt that most people have even heard that we, the collective we lost 3 service members in Afghanistan and how many others have been killed besides the 3 people in CA.
7
I live in the democrat run state of new York and the only hate I have heard has been steadily coming from the corrupt democrats that run this state. To be fair the GOP is so incompetent in NY the dems know they can get away with anything. Three recent democrat leaders caught for corruption or sexual assault charges.
4
Return your sword to its place, for all who will take up the sword, will die by the sword (Matthew 26:52). The tragic incident in Alexandria, VA can be directly traced to the inflammatory rhetoric of the Tea Party, FOX News, the Trump campaign, angry populists and the neo-nazi alt-right. It is no surprise that such a toxic environment could lead unstable individuals to violence. Humanity condemns violence of any form – it is immoral, illegal and generally counterproductive. Politicians that traffic in such rhetoric must also be condemned so that the nation can return to a working democracy.
5
The tragic incident in Alexandria, VA can be directly traced to the inflammatory rhetoric of the Tea Party, FOX News, the Trump campaign, angry populists and the neo-nazi alt-right.
=============
Um, the shooter was an enraged Democrat
=============
Um, the shooter was an enraged Democrat
8
Perhaps some self reflection on the part of the NYT? With stories every day on how Trump is a bad man ruining the country- can you possibly be at fault for pushing a man over the edge?
We saw the horror both here and in the MSM about Trumps possible refusal to accept the election results. Yet it is this paper that continually gives platitudes to those claiming that trump is not their president.
We saw the horror both here and in the MSM about Trumps possible refusal to accept the election results. Yet it is this paper that continually gives platitudes to those claiming that trump is not their president.
22
While you're at it let's drastically restrict access to cars and knives. Why not?... they kill. Is it because far more good people use them as they are intended than do killers and miscreants? Same with guns, they are used everyday to protect homes and law abiding people (concealed carry permit holders are the most law abiding group in this nation despite your wild west fantasy)... It's just never reported in the NYT. The narrative you are pushing is a slander against everyone who wants to defend themselves and their loved ones and bother no one. There are millions of us, we are your neighbors and co-workers, are no threat to you and disarming us will not make you safer.
6
Gun control proponents should consider that there are more than 300 million firearms lawfully owned in the US by more than 100 million law abiding Americans. The overwhelming majority of those firearms have never been pointed at another human - even by law enforcement or military.
If law abiding gun owners and their firearms were the problem, you would certainly know.
Stop wasting time trying to deprive others of their rights.
The problems lie elsewhere and you refuse to see.
If law abiding gun owners and their firearms were the problem, you would certainly know.
Stop wasting time trying to deprive others of their rights.
The problems lie elsewhere and you refuse to see.
4
Im reading this while listening to Rush Limbaugh. Talk about information overload! Anyway, he's currently calling for Sarah Palin to sue the NY Times for libel. Just want you to be aware. I don't know if a correction is enough. But I digress.
I think Mr. Baquet would be wise to take these threats seriously. One slip up too many and I fear the weight of the entire Trump administration WILL follow through on yet another campaign promise - to loosen libel laws that shuts down "fake news".
I love the NYTimes but please be more careful.
I think Mr. Baquet would be wise to take these threats seriously. One slip up too many and I fear the weight of the entire Trump administration WILL follow through on yet another campaign promise - to loosen libel laws that shuts down "fake news".
I love the NYTimes but please be more careful.
8
It would be great if the Times could be wise and reflective, too, as well as less screechingly, predictably, perversely partisan.
6
What studies? There has never been any study regarding armed citizens wounding other citizens in the process of defending themselves. There have been accounts of people injured by police from time to time but no studies. I think the NYT board is lying.
12
You are correct. There are no such studies
5
Before anything is known by journalists or the public about Comrade Hodgkinson's health, The Times claims he "was surely deranged." Leaving aside that the same might be said of any pathetically envious, dead-ender Marxist, it's at least possible that this would-be killer of Republicans was as sane as anyone else. After all, he seems to have methodically staked out the practice field for some time, living nearby in his van with guns and ammo well before pulling the trigger. And for all we know, like Jack Ruby, he may have recently been given some bad health news and/or otherwise figured he had nothing to lose by going out in a blaze of radically murderous glory to the delight of Kathy Griffin, Stephen Colbert, Maxine Waters, Al Franken, Kamala Harris, Ron Wyden, Black Bloc'ers, BLM'ers, the cast of Hamilton, the rest of Broadway and Hollywood, and many Times readers.
14
"The sniper . . . was surely deranged." How about describing him as 'terrorist," which is the norm if the person has brown or black skin, or hails from a mostly Muslim country?
3
I will give the Times' editors credit for partially retracting their earlier condemnation of Sarah Palin. She was obviously not hoping for an assassination and Jared Lee Loughner was schizophrenic, and he probably never saw that add. His obcession started three years earlier, the voices in his head were not republican, and the link between Sarah Palin's and Jared Lee Loughner is nonexistent. However, the link between the hatred spueing out of our liberal press and every democrat with Trump Derangement Syndrome (TDS) is clear, and that hatred appears to have been the privation for James Hodgkinson's attack on Congressional Republicans. He may have been insane with hate but so far there is no indication of other mental disorders. So the NYTs and other liberals need to back off the constant hate-filled rhetoric. It isn't funny. So back off. Words have power. Use that power for good and not evil. Rethink your strategy. It didn't work for you in the presidential campaign and it is not working for you now. Only 29% of Americans are liberal and even press outlets currently enjoying record high viewerships because liberals feel so energized by their hatred will one day wish they had not permanently turned away moderate and conservative viewers. It is not too late to change your ways before you to become so consumed with your hatred that you become the next active shooter.
24
After cancelling my subscription this past weekend, I had second thoughts about ending my decades long relationship with the NYT. Thanks for reminding me why I left.
24
According to the Democrats, all opposition is illegitimate, illegal, immoral and not human. Violence against them is acceptable and encouraged
13
The editorial states that the gunman, James Hodgkinson, “was surely deranged, and his derangement had found its fuel in politics.” First, how did the NYT folks know that the gunman was “deranged”? Secondly, if this gunman had had a Muslim name: would we describe him as “deranged” or “terrorist”; would we say yesterday’s horrific event in Alexandria, VA, was a terrorist attack or a violent act by a “deranged” person? We often ascribe mental illness to non-Muslim Americans who commit heinous violent acts. But we do not hesitate in describing comparable acts by Muslims as “terrorist” acts. Lastly, as a nation, do we truly oppose terrorism, no matter who the perpetrator or the victim is?
3
The NRA would have "The Walking Dead" become real--Us, the Good Guys, licensed in perpetuity to slaughter the shuffling, mindless zombies of the "other side". Just imagine the sales.
2
NYT re Sarah Palin's PAC map -- "But in that case no connection to the shooting was ever established." (And as reported in the Washington Post, there was overwhelming evidence that there was no connection!)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/06/15/the-bogus...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/06/15/the-bogus...
12
Attacks like this one are horrible for many reasons. If there is a time for saner minds to prevail, that time is now.
Both political parties have contributed to the assault on the American public, especially the Republicans. Partisanship have separated us more than ever.
A Congress that refused to work with Mr Obama, everything he did was to be denied. This Congress denied his Supreme Court pick and destroyed his legacy. The word, compromise, no longer exists. When before, in our history, has this happened?
Currently, we have a questionable election that has produced the most incompetent, dangerous President. Trump's anger and petty vendettas throw more fuel on the fire.
Finally, the American love affair with the Second Admendment enabled by the NRA, has created a National arena a weapons. These most wonderful assault weapons easily slay all within their range within seconds. The gun manufacturers have also created "the best", bullets. These bulletts, once they enter the body, expand and destroy all within their trajectory. Congress is working hard to pass legislation to legalize silencers on weapons, so our hearing can't perceive the assault. The NRA has succeeded in increasing arms sales to a frightened, angry population.
When will we decide to alter this path to hell?
Both political parties have contributed to the assault on the American public, especially the Republicans. Partisanship have separated us more than ever.
A Congress that refused to work with Mr Obama, everything he did was to be denied. This Congress denied his Supreme Court pick and destroyed his legacy. The word, compromise, no longer exists. When before, in our history, has this happened?
Currently, we have a questionable election that has produced the most incompetent, dangerous President. Trump's anger and petty vendettas throw more fuel on the fire.
Finally, the American love affair with the Second Admendment enabled by the NRA, has created a National arena a weapons. These most wonderful assault weapons easily slay all within their range within seconds. The gun manufacturers have also created "the best", bullets. These bulletts, once they enter the body, expand and destroy all within their trajectory. Congress is working hard to pass legislation to legalize silencers on weapons, so our hearing can't perceive the assault. The NRA has succeeded in increasing arms sales to a frightened, angry population.
When will we decide to alter this path to hell?
3
"Silencers" are already legal but they do NOT make the sound of gunfire undetectable. They lower the sound by 20 to 30 decibels. Still very loud and shooters should continue to wear other ear protection.
Sound suppressors, as they are properly called, are a safety addition to firearms to protect hearing.
Please learn about firearms and issues surrounding them before making judgments that affect others' rights. Ignorance is not helpful. Tnx.
Sound suppressors, as they are properly called, are a safety addition to firearms to protect hearing.
Please learn about firearms and issues surrounding them before making judgments that affect others' rights. Ignorance is not helpful. Tnx.
2
I'm no more interested in the nyt, or any leftist media outlet, limiting my 2nd Amendment rights, than the nyt is for me limiting their 1st Amendment rights.
When the nyt agrees that their 1st Amendment rights should be limited, then I will consider allowing the nyt to suggest 2nd Amendment rights should be limited.
Until then, if you don't like guns, don't buy them, nor suggest limits on other people owning them.
Period!
When the nyt agrees that their 1st Amendment rights should be limited, then I will consider allowing the nyt to suggest 2nd Amendment rights should be limited.
Until then, if you don't like guns, don't buy them, nor suggest limits on other people owning them.
Period!
5
I am an Australian who recently moved to the UK.
Port Arthur back in '96 cut us to the core. I could not have been happier with the reaction of the Howard government in the aftermath of that tragedy in taking back a great many firearms, and then clamping down with new legislation moving forward.
I am similarly happy with the state of legislation here in the UK. How fortunate I am that I have never had to live in fear of gun violence.
As an avid follower of your politics, and a keen student of your history, the American relationship with guns is the one thing that I just cannot understand. Unless you are willing to tell me that Americans are inherently more murderous than citizens of comparable Western democracies (a ridiculous notion), then the only variable that could possibly cause the ludicrously high rate of deaths from gun violence in the US is the proliferation of firearms throughout.
I have experienced significant (often vicious) push-back in the past when airing these arguments. I care not one jot. I'll continue to be baffled and hope like hell you can one day move past the obsession. Your society deserves better.
Port Arthur back in '96 cut us to the core. I could not have been happier with the reaction of the Howard government in the aftermath of that tragedy in taking back a great many firearms, and then clamping down with new legislation moving forward.
I am similarly happy with the state of legislation here in the UK. How fortunate I am that I have never had to live in fear of gun violence.
As an avid follower of your politics, and a keen student of your history, the American relationship with guns is the one thing that I just cannot understand. Unless you are willing to tell me that Americans are inherently more murderous than citizens of comparable Western democracies (a ridiculous notion), then the only variable that could possibly cause the ludicrously high rate of deaths from gun violence in the US is the proliferation of firearms throughout.
I have experienced significant (often vicious) push-back in the past when airing these arguments. I care not one jot. I'll continue to be baffled and hope like hell you can one day move past the obsession. Your society deserves better.
Could the editors please avoid trying to score political points, for once?
They briefly, tentatively, float the idea that the main lesson to be drawn is about the fires of political hatred that are constantly being whipped ever higher by our national political debate. Their judgment: "Probably."
After a brief nod to this issue - which is far more damaging and corrosive to America's national condition than the everlasting, and ineradicable, love affair with high-caliber guns - the editors then spend about 3x as many words, and the rest of the article, changing the subject.
The lesson of this political activist's multi-year odyssey from Bernie Bro to political assassin is crystal clear to any person with common sense: Tone down the rhetoric.
Step back from the edge: stop demonizing the other side.
Enough with the stunts about decapitating the president, or "blowing up the White House," or staging plays that act out a wish to see the president stabbed to death by women and minorities.
Enough with the lesser, daily crudities - the F-bombs instead of strong arguments, the foolish notion of "Resistance" as opposed to loyal opposition, the constant stream of sneers and sarcasm and slurs of one's opponents as if they were ISIS.
Enough.
They briefly, tentatively, float the idea that the main lesson to be drawn is about the fires of political hatred that are constantly being whipped ever higher by our national political debate. Their judgment: "Probably."
After a brief nod to this issue - which is far more damaging and corrosive to America's national condition than the everlasting, and ineradicable, love affair with high-caliber guns - the editors then spend about 3x as many words, and the rest of the article, changing the subject.
The lesson of this political activist's multi-year odyssey from Bernie Bro to political assassin is crystal clear to any person with common sense: Tone down the rhetoric.
Step back from the edge: stop demonizing the other side.
Enough with the stunts about decapitating the president, or "blowing up the White House," or staging plays that act out a wish to see the president stabbed to death by women and minorities.
Enough with the lesser, daily crudities - the F-bombs instead of strong arguments, the foolish notion of "Resistance" as opposed to loyal opposition, the constant stream of sneers and sarcasm and slurs of one's opponents as if they were ISIS.
Enough.
13
So, Americans own 300 million bats?
3
And yet the New York Times continues to support the Public theatre group which stages an assassination of President Trump in Central Park every evening - which supposedly violence hating progressives lovingly adore with standing ovations. So spare us the phony concern about the coarsening of politics which the New York Times abets.
23
For what it's worth - and little seems worth much when it comes to gun control - there is a modicum of Justice in the fact that the most grievously wounded victim was Scalise. Scalise, a hardcore NRA supporter with an A-plus voting record on beating back any and all regulation on access to deadly weapons and ammunition, was "shot in the hip" and is in critical condition. What hospital reports don't detail about "shot in the hip" is that the bullet went through his pelvic girdle at high speed, smashing his hip and spraying bone and bullet fragments all through his lower abdomen like an exploding skyrocket, shredding intestines, prostate, bladder, etc. The 'shock wave' that precedes a high speed bullet likely severely damaged many nearby organs crammed into that tiny space within the groin, such as kidneys, liver, spleen, stomach and diaphragm, along with major veins and arteries and possibly exploding the abdominal wall, which would account for reports of profuse bleeding. Pierced intestines can spread fatal infection. This is what happens to hunted animals who, their vital organs reduced to pulp, succumb quickly to the manly hunter's prowess. If Scalise lives, ahead lies a living hell of surgeries, drugs, prostheses and rehabilitation. But as a virulent opponent of gun control he was an architect of his own suffering. Thankfully, unlike the typical gun violence victim, he has great healthcare coverage.
4
With the correction to this editorial, the esteemed Editorial Board demonstrates that it has not shame.
Just how much blood does the NY Times, its Publisher, its Executive Editor, its other editors, and its columnists have on their hands?
This reader believes that there is a lot of it, and ALL of that which is on their hands is the blood of innocent, law-abiding, peaceful citizens.
There is no better reason for having a Public Editor, Mr. Sulzberger, than this pathetic whitewashing of what is going on. And Mr. Baquet fully knows that, even though he is never going to admit it.
Just how much blood does the NY Times, its Publisher, its Executive Editor, its other editors, and its columnists have on their hands?
This reader believes that there is a lot of it, and ALL of that which is on their hands is the blood of innocent, law-abiding, peaceful citizens.
There is no better reason for having a Public Editor, Mr. Sulzberger, than this pathetic whitewashing of what is going on. And Mr. Baquet fully knows that, even though he is never going to admit it.
16
so sara palin's target on giffords district is not political???
the frequent right wing calls for second amendment solutions against democrats is not political...oh yea, I get it
the frequent right wing calls for second amendment solutions against democrats is not political...oh yea, I get it
2
"Praise the Lord, and pass the ammunition."
-- NRA/GOP
-- NRA/GOP
3
Well done NYT, while mentioning the killers political motivations in passing, you quickly moved past that and brought Sarah Palin into the mix and keyed on gun control. Meaning of course, that this is all the Republican's fault.
No, it's YOUR fault. It's the fault of the nonstop division and blame casting to one side of the aisle that you so commonly engage in. Support for "the resistance" and Black Lives Matter protests, soft treatment of increasingly violent leftist agitators, caustic public behavior towards Republicans. It all added up to this guy feeling he was totally justified in attacking "the enemy", and this paper is complicit. You even had to correct yourselves after initially suggesting the gabby Giffords shooting was caused by conservative rhetoric. You're liars, and you're stirring up contention in our society.
Are we going to search the killers motivations and then go on a nationwide eradication campaign like we did with the Confederate flag after the Charleston shootings? Since this guy was a Progressive, the answer is obviously no. Just like all the other left wing mass murderers (BLM rally, Pulse nightclub, TV reporter murder etc. etc. etc.) he'll get a pass, and you'll focus on guns, because you can gain political traction that way. it's sickening.
Oh yeah, in the meantime keep up the war against your own duly elected President. It shows what side you're really on.
No, it's YOUR fault. It's the fault of the nonstop division and blame casting to one side of the aisle that you so commonly engage in. Support for "the resistance" and Black Lives Matter protests, soft treatment of increasingly violent leftist agitators, caustic public behavior towards Republicans. It all added up to this guy feeling he was totally justified in attacking "the enemy", and this paper is complicit. You even had to correct yourselves after initially suggesting the gabby Giffords shooting was caused by conservative rhetoric. You're liars, and you're stirring up contention in our society.
Are we going to search the killers motivations and then go on a nationwide eradication campaign like we did with the Confederate flag after the Charleston shootings? Since this guy was a Progressive, the answer is obviously no. Just like all the other left wing mass murderers (BLM rally, Pulse nightclub, TV reporter murder etc. etc. etc.) he'll get a pass, and you'll focus on guns, because you can gain political traction that way. it's sickening.
Oh yeah, in the meantime keep up the war against your own duly elected President. It shows what side you're really on.
21
Why does the Times find it so hard to distinguish liberals from people on the far left? Mr. Hodgkinson does not sound like a liberal.
This paper the Washington Post, and CNN need look in the mirror. Millions get sucked in to believing such biased news coverage. Millions pay zero attention as well. My guess is Trump keeps his core supporters, Sanders keeps his.
5
Please, Please stop being dishonest and spreading untruths. Your bias is embarrassing. Don't you know that you are part of the problem here?
"Before the shooting, Sarah Palin’s political action committee circulated a map that showed the targeted electoral districts of Ms. Giffords and 19 other Democrats under stylized cross hairs. But in that case no connection to the shooting was ever established."
Jared Lee Loughner, had Gabby Giffords "targeted" way before Sarah Palin did anything.
"Before the shooting, Sarah Palin’s political action committee circulated a map that showed the targeted electoral districts of Ms. Giffords and 19 other Democrats under stylized cross hairs. But in that case no connection to the shooting was ever established."
Jared Lee Loughner, had Gabby Giffords "targeted" way before Sarah Palin did anything.
16
Groups like "Terminate Republicans", the fascistic "anti-fa" movement, the rioters in Berkeley, and similar leftist groups advocating violence should be classified as terrorists and should face the wrath of the U.S. military.
9
THE NYT has to own to its role in this tragedy. Bottom line (1) NYT got the election wrong, (2) send apology notes by mail to subscribers, but did not change the tone of its coverage, (3) remains unwilling to give an administration elected by a majority of Americans -according to the rules of the game- not some total count- the benefit of the doubt.
NYT is as radical as ISIS is in its intolerance of liberal opinions. The only difference is a matter of scale. ISIS talks the talk and walks the walk, you stop at talking but you would have been pleased if the MD gunman changed the balance of congress by murdering a large number of republicans.
I read a whole editorial signed by the editorial staff with not a hint that you feel that you played a role in this massacre. You may choose not to publish this comment, but will simply prove my point.
NYT is as radical as ISIS is in its intolerance of liberal opinions. The only difference is a matter of scale. ISIS talks the talk and walks the walk, you stop at talking but you would have been pleased if the MD gunman changed the balance of congress by murdering a large number of republicans.
I read a whole editorial signed by the editorial staff with not a hint that you feel that you played a role in this massacre. You may choose not to publish this comment, but will simply prove my point.
19
Trump: "We can all agree that we are blessed to be Americans."
America is a "hell-hole," Trump has also said, a land of "carnage." And (1) reneging on his head-fake promises about not touching medicare and social security, and (2) throwing millions off of a good and functional, but G.O.P.-sabotaged, national health care system, and -- above all -- (3) working from the White House itself deliberately to obscure the lines between truth and lies in the manner of the best of history's fascist professionals so as to serially deceive the citizenry, is the way to "make America great again"? Ha!
No wonder people are angry. America is being systematically dismantled by the Republican Party and by Donald Trump's White House baseball team, which won its position with help from a Russian umpire. Steve Scalise took a bullet symbolically meant for Donald Trump. I hope Mr. Trump senses his deep measure of responsibility for this horrible first-inning development.
America is a "hell-hole," Trump has also said, a land of "carnage." And (1) reneging on his head-fake promises about not touching medicare and social security, and (2) throwing millions off of a good and functional, but G.O.P.-sabotaged, national health care system, and -- above all -- (3) working from the White House itself deliberately to obscure the lines between truth and lies in the manner of the best of history's fascist professionals so as to serially deceive the citizenry, is the way to "make America great again"? Ha!
No wonder people are angry. America is being systematically dismantled by the Republican Party and by Donald Trump's White House baseball team, which won its position with help from a Russian umpire. Steve Scalise took a bullet symbolically meant for Donald Trump. I hope Mr. Trump senses his deep measure of responsibility for this horrible first-inning development.
1
Follow the money. Mass shootings and fear are good for weapon manufacturers. The NRA has members of congress so firmly in its hip pocket that their first response is to advocate more access to guns. The NRA will not be satisfied until we all own several assault rifles and multiple handguns. Compare our gun violence to Canada, the UK, or anywhere in Europe. We are off the charts. So don't tell me gun control doesn't work. It does.
2
Follow the Marxists. Speech suppression, gun control and the constant undermining of duly elected governments by any means necessary are the tools they use to pave the totalitarian road to serfdom.
10
Having one's cake and eating it, too, tends to result in indigestion. NRA folk demand their right to bear arms to gun down the "bad hombres" in the streets yet demure when the courage to confront these tragically inevitable consequences are front and center. Paul Ryan proclaimed "an attack on one of us is an attack on us all!" I still don't know what he meant. We should huddle together to defend ourselves; or, we compassionately share in this tragedy of humanity? If the latter, then the mandate is clear. No Guns. However, Trump stoked passion for gun violence during the campaign by alluding to the 2nd amendment crowd's dealing with HRC. Political affiliation is immaterial as this gunman favored Sanders. The glory of the Wild West feeds too many fantasies that the military/industrial complex needs to keep alive. Americans needed their guns to suppress Natives and slaves. The US is the largest arms supplier in the world. This madness isn't going away any time in the foreseeable future. However, the symbolism of taking up arms against government officials begs the question: what would make this man risk life and death? Perhaps he didn't see America as on the road to becoming 'great' again. To say that this is merely a gun control issue clearly misses the target. Either the government is under siege or they're just not listening.
1
The shooting resulted in the cancellation of a House hearing on loosening controls on gun silencers. What possible self defense argument can be made for silencers?
2
The shooting resulted in the entire day's calendar being cancelled, so any inference beyond that is fantasy. Suppressors do not silence firearms. They simply reduce the impulse noise below the threshold of hearing damage. They do not sound like they are portrayed in movies, not are they silent.
"remember that everyone who serves in our nation’s capital is here because, above all, they love our country. " ~ Donald Trump
Not so fast. The GOP controlled Congress does not love this country. They passed that ludicrous health care plan that even Trump called mean for starters. If these politicians really loved this country they should have never let Trump get close to the WH. If they really loved their country they should be working overtime to rid the nation of Donald J. Trump.
Not so fast. The GOP controlled Congress does not love this country. They passed that ludicrous health care plan that even Trump called mean for starters. If these politicians really loved this country they should have never let Trump get close to the WH. If they really loved their country they should be working overtime to rid the nation of Donald J. Trump.
4
How different our lives could now be if the Supreme Court had ruled that the Second Amendment did not provide a legal basis for individual, private gun ownership. We keep on killing ourselves in brutal endorsement of its judicial "wisdom", while oceans of tears keep flowing.
1
An ignorant, narcissistic demagogue is president of our country. As head of a business empire, his is an autocrat by long experience. He is trying to consolidate his power, firing those, who like James Comey, refuse to do his bidding. Is it not time for us all to revisit the intent of the Second Amendment-to protect ourselves against an oppressive and tyrannical government?
1
Memo from the Founding Fathers, "There is NO '2nd amendment remedy' to the problems facing our country. There is NO 2nd amendment right to use guns to overthrow our government."
Shame on Wayne LaPierre and the NRA for promoting firearms as a solution for the politically dissatisfied. Guns are not the solution for any of our political problems.
Shame on Wayne LaPierre and the NRA for promoting firearms as a solution for the politically dissatisfied. Guns are not the solution for any of our political problems.
1
Memo from the Founding Fathers, "There is NO '2nd amendment remedy' to the problems facing our country. There is NO 2nd amendment right to use guns to overthrow our government."
===============
The actual memo on this from the Founding Fathers is Federalist No. 46, in which Madison says the militia partially exists to resist an overweening federal government
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_No._46
===============
The actual memo on this from the Founding Fathers is Federalist No. 46, in which Madison says the militia partially exists to resist an overweening federal government
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_No._46
3
We reap what we sow. Congress allows assault weapons with large magazines; Congress and we all are at risk. Why?
1
We reap what we sow. Congress allows assault weapons with large magazines; Congress and we all are at risk. Why?
==============
Um, the shooter didn't use an "assault weapon with large magazines" but an SKS. It is a semi-automatic carbine with a non-detatchable 10 round magazine.
==============
Um, the shooter didn't use an "assault weapon with large magazines" but an SKS. It is a semi-automatic carbine with a non-detatchable 10 round magazine.
1
The NYT should stop highlighting political stories 24/7 and focus on issues:
• What is congress and administration actually doing in terms of policy
• Feature stories of ordinary Americans and their true conditions, and ask the tough questions about the stalled economy in large parts of the country
• Report thoughtfully on the obvious corruption of the political system - who is paying and what they are getting - obviously the focus of policymakers is NOT the common individual or their well-being
• Hold members of both parties to the same standards, the nation is tired of media hypocrites
• What is congress and administration actually doing in terms of policy
• Feature stories of ordinary Americans and their true conditions, and ask the tough questions about the stalled economy in large parts of the country
• Report thoughtfully on the obvious corruption of the political system - who is paying and what they are getting - obviously the focus of policymakers is NOT the common individual or their well-being
• Hold members of both parties to the same standards, the nation is tired of media hypocrites
8
Yeah, well you know, in this country the NRA has the solution for everything.
The Wild West never went away. It just moved to television and then to politics in America today.
The Wild West never went away. It just moved to television and then to politics in America today.
Typical NYT, blame everyone but themselves.
All the gun laws in the country would not stop this individual, and if so there is always explosives. And there is no evidence he was mentally ill. Anger, is a state of mind, and there are lot's of angry people out there, including folks who write daily for this paper.
This event was an attempt at political assignation. The man went to DC to kill Republicans. End of story.
Since President Trump was nominated it has been an endless stream of nonsense to diminish his legitimacy. And then he was elected, the old fashion way, the same as every President since our beginning.
False stories, an incredibly vicious play in Central Park, threats from Madonna to Robert De Niro, and then there's Maher and Griffin. Worst, they are lauded by the extremist. And that's before you turn on the talking heads and their "experts".
Social media provides a platform for name-calling. People are accused of being racists, xenophobes, uneducated, and stupid. Identity politics at it's worst. Even yesterday as this tragic event unfolded the mainline news fed was the President being investigated by Mueller for obstruction. No kidding! More leaks.
This man wasn't deranged, he was angry. We all fired those bullets yesterday, nobody is innocent, And we were all firing bullets the days before, and the weeks, and the months.
There are no do overs in life. People have to accept things the way they are, and take inventory of their own minds.
All the gun laws in the country would not stop this individual, and if so there is always explosives. And there is no evidence he was mentally ill. Anger, is a state of mind, and there are lot's of angry people out there, including folks who write daily for this paper.
This event was an attempt at political assignation. The man went to DC to kill Republicans. End of story.
Since President Trump was nominated it has been an endless stream of nonsense to diminish his legitimacy. And then he was elected, the old fashion way, the same as every President since our beginning.
False stories, an incredibly vicious play in Central Park, threats from Madonna to Robert De Niro, and then there's Maher and Griffin. Worst, they are lauded by the extremist. And that's before you turn on the talking heads and their "experts".
Social media provides a platform for name-calling. People are accused of being racists, xenophobes, uneducated, and stupid. Identity politics at it's worst. Even yesterday as this tragic event unfolded the mainline news fed was the President being investigated by Mueller for obstruction. No kidding! More leaks.
This man wasn't deranged, he was angry. We all fired those bullets yesterday, nobody is innocent, And we were all firing bullets the days before, and the weeks, and the months.
There are no do overs in life. People have to accept things the way they are, and take inventory of their own minds.
10
Most Americans believe as strongly in the Second Amendment as the First.
5
Gun proponents, answer me these two scenarios:
1) You are in a movie theater and a gunman with body armor is shooting at you with an assault rifle. You have a pistol.
Do you, a) stay hidden beneath your seats along with everyone else?, or b) pop up and go down in a blaze of glory while probably shooting several innocent fellow citizens?
2) You are in a park and observe a gunman shooting at random people. You pull out your gun and start shooting towards the gunman. Now, a police officer arrives on the scene. How does the officer know who is the bad guy and who is the good guy? Does he simply ask, or shoot both people?
Thanks for playing, "you make the call."
1) You are in a movie theater and a gunman with body armor is shooting at you with an assault rifle. You have a pistol.
Do you, a) stay hidden beneath your seats along with everyone else?, or b) pop up and go down in a blaze of glory while probably shooting several innocent fellow citizens?
2) You are in a park and observe a gunman shooting at random people. You pull out your gun and start shooting towards the gunman. Now, a police officer arrives on the scene. How does the officer know who is the bad guy and who is the good guy? Does he simply ask, or shoot both people?
Thanks for playing, "you make the call."
@KB After a Real Life episode of "you make the call", why don't you enlighten us and tell us what you did? Crawling under a hypothetical rock is another choice in your game of make believe, but maybe you would even surprise yourself by taking a stand.
If indeed, in a) "everyone is hidden underneath a seat" there'd be no one standing to be in the way. In 2) Police officers face these difficult decisions every day and regardless what they do there is always criticism. Somehow, by "simply asking" (in a hail of bullets) the 'bad guy' may not actually answer honestly, imagine that.
If indeed, in a) "everyone is hidden underneath a seat" there'd be no one standing to be in the way. In 2) Police officers face these difficult decisions every day and regardless what they do there is always criticism. Somehow, by "simply asking" (in a hail of bullets) the 'bad guy' may not actually answer honestly, imagine that.
3
With all due respect, KB, you sound like a pacifist willing to delegate your personal safety and protection to the Leviathan State as you cower under theater seats. Some of us would rather have a fighting chance to protect ourselves until police can arrive. If four, five or six of us sure-handed men and women armed with various pistols in your hypothetical theater scenario were to simultaneously direct fire at our attacker, it's very likely he'd fall -- armor or no armor -- and then be subject to the most severe, Lord of the Flies beating of his life before police could put him in an ambulance or coroner's van. To the extent that any of our friendly fire harmed innocents, surely you wouldn't argue that we instead should have held our fire and waited passively for the bad guy to harm as many of those innocents as he could have before police arrived, would you? As for your park scenario, I'd draw my pistol, run to the sound of the shots and direct fire at the murderous criminal if possible. Were I and the other law-abiding folks at the park lucky enough to have police arrive promptly, those of us with our own weapons drawn would quickly put them down, put our hands in the air as we've been trained to do, and clearly communicate with police that we're friendlies and that the bad guy(s) is over there behind the boathouse. Take a gun safety & tactics class for laughs one of these weekends. You'll learn a lot.
3
Maybe now they understand what others have suffered. A little empathy for the children of Sandy Hook? I hear they want more guns out there now though... white male Republicans and their Wild West fantasies. Maybe if they got out of the pocket of the NRA, they'd see more clearly how devastating it is to allow the amount of guns to be out there in America. Shame.
What is the relevance of mentioning that this individual was a Sanders supporter? Sanders has never advocated, or condoned violence.
Second, I wonder how many editorials the NYT wrote during the 80s and 90s that advocated for stiff prison sentences for non-violent drug offenders and others convicted of misdemeanor crimes?
Today, we are trying to reduce prison sentences because the Reagan and Clinton policies of the 80s and 90s didn't solve anything, and actually made matters worse.
My point in all this is that the NYT editorial board is no different than the average U.S. citizen who wants to enact stricter gun control laws. Guns, just like drugs, aren't the problem. It is poverty, lack of opportunities, the gutting of social welfare programs, job loss to automation and overseas operations, and heated ill informed rhetoric coming from our representatives, among other things, that are the cause of violence. Think youth street gangs here in the U.S., or youth in the Middle East.
How about writing an editorial where you propose real solutions to the cause of violence, and not the symptom of violence? As we've seen in Oregon, and London, if someone really wants to hurt people, they don't need a gun. They can use a knife, or run people over. Does that mean we should ban knives and trucks?
Second, I wonder how many editorials the NYT wrote during the 80s and 90s that advocated for stiff prison sentences for non-violent drug offenders and others convicted of misdemeanor crimes?
Today, we are trying to reduce prison sentences because the Reagan and Clinton policies of the 80s and 90s didn't solve anything, and actually made matters worse.
My point in all this is that the NYT editorial board is no different than the average U.S. citizen who wants to enact stricter gun control laws. Guns, just like drugs, aren't the problem. It is poverty, lack of opportunities, the gutting of social welfare programs, job loss to automation and overseas operations, and heated ill informed rhetoric coming from our representatives, among other things, that are the cause of violence. Think youth street gangs here in the U.S., or youth in the Middle East.
How about writing an editorial where you propose real solutions to the cause of violence, and not the symptom of violence? As we've seen in Oregon, and London, if someone really wants to hurt people, they don't need a gun. They can use a knife, or run people over. Does that mean we should ban knives and trucks?
1
Bernie Sanders clearly had a major influence on Hodgkinson and inspired him greatly
4
Today, we are trying to reduce prison sentences because the Reagan and Clinton policies of the 80s and 90s didn't solve anything, and actually made matters worse.
====================
Baloney. Crime rates have been falling for 25 years.
Or are you going to be like the Times editorialists who can't understand how crime is declining when we have so many people in prison
====================
Baloney. Crime rates have been falling for 25 years.
Or are you going to be like the Times editorialists who can't understand how crime is declining when we have so many people in prison
1
It's amazing to behold how we tiptoe around this issue; how reluctant we have become to clearly assert what is so obvious to most of us.
That is the real tragedy of who we have become as a nation. The NRA culture has succeeded by making the statement that 'the emperor is not wearing any clothes' politically incorrect. We are afraid to challenge the very 'alternative facts' that we are convinced endanger our own children.
That is the real tragedy of who we have become as a nation. The NRA culture has succeeded by making the statement that 'the emperor is not wearing any clothes' politically incorrect. We are afraid to challenge the very 'alternative facts' that we are convinced endanger our own children.
3
Watch TV, read the newspapers, the politicians are the main cause of their own animosity. And, guns? The politicians continually vote to allow guns. There should NOT be any surprise that this is happening. Tragic, for sure. Surprise, not any longer.
2
If our representatives want everyone to carry guns to work they should start by allowing guns in Congress.
They won't of course. It's so easy to make someone else's wife, child, or husband a shooting target. It's much harder to do the right thing and protect our citizens.
They won't of course. It's so easy to make someone else's wife, child, or husband a shooting target. It's much harder to do the right thing and protect our citizens.
40
Marc
The "Congressional Workspace" has armed guards protecting it.
You have to go through metal detectors to get inside
Should there be a problem a large armed response is ready to go on a moments notice...
My work space here in Oregon DOES NOT have armed guards or metal detectors...
Here in the suburbs of PDX the last time I had to call the cops it took them almost 20 minutes to show up
If the individual whom I called the cops on had been armed that 20 minutes could have been my lifetime...
It's so easy to take away my right of self defense it's much harder to do the right thing and admit that the right to self defense is enshrined in the Bill of Rights.
You want to ban guns because of your misguided belief that it will end or significantly reduce gun violence
Then pass a repeal - That will take 2/3 of Congress and 3/4th's of the States to agree with you.
By the way
It was illegal for the shooter in DC to take out his rifle and start shooting people... That law didn't stop him...
It was illegal for the happy couple in San Bernardino to bring a gun into the conference center - that law didn't stop them
The ONLY thing gun control does is disarm LAW ABIDING Citizens
The whackdo/terrorist/criminal always arrives at the scene of the crime armed!
The "Congressional Workspace" has armed guards protecting it.
You have to go through metal detectors to get inside
Should there be a problem a large armed response is ready to go on a moments notice...
My work space here in Oregon DOES NOT have armed guards or metal detectors...
Here in the suburbs of PDX the last time I had to call the cops it took them almost 20 minutes to show up
If the individual whom I called the cops on had been armed that 20 minutes could have been my lifetime...
It's so easy to take away my right of self defense it's much harder to do the right thing and admit that the right to self defense is enshrined in the Bill of Rights.
You want to ban guns because of your misguided belief that it will end or significantly reduce gun violence
Then pass a repeal - That will take 2/3 of Congress and 3/4th's of the States to agree with you.
By the way
It was illegal for the shooter in DC to take out his rifle and start shooting people... That law didn't stop him...
It was illegal for the happy couple in San Bernardino to bring a gun into the conference center - that law didn't stop them
The ONLY thing gun control does is disarm LAW ABIDING Citizens
The whackdo/terrorist/criminal always arrives at the scene of the crime armed!
We need to make more movies and video games with gun violence so all the mentally ill people can just kill themselves in their fictional battle against them (the victims) and the bad guys. I'm sorry but we need to separate ourselves from those who love their weapons and their powers of destruction. That will lead to more social isolation for those with severe problems but we need some social segregation if we want to protect ourselves. We need mental institutions that treat the mentally ill for free and separate ourselves from the problem. We are the country of freedom but we are already a really violent country (maybe even worse than those in Middle East, South America, Africa, etc). We need to restrict freedom or compromise our safety.
It isn't American politics but rather American culture that is lethal. Senseless cartoon violence is a staple of the American entertainment industry, be it movies, television, books, or video games. Culturally, we find violence amusing.
But then we are shocked when some form of that mindless violence leaps out into real life after germinating in the minds of the mentally unstable, people who may be of any or no political persuasion. All they have, these purveyors of random, senseless, mayhem, is a certainty that we live in apocalyptic times, the only solution for which is a murderous rampage.
Contemporary American culture is awash in graphic representations of extreme violence. Coupled with the "if it bleeds it leads" ethos of modern news gathering, is it any wonder we are a nation afflicted by a paranoid fear that our society is decaying into madness? The stories we tell ourselves for entertainment bleed back into real life via the mentally unstable. We react in fear and express uncomprehending sadness.
But, the old saying, you are what you eat, is even more true of the mind than of the body. You are what you think. Stuff your head with tales of violence and you will live in a poisoned landscape of your own making, full of paranoid delusions. Then when someone acts out on the basis of their own similar delusions you can always relieve the tension by playing a few hours of Grand Theft Auto. It's the American way.
But then we are shocked when some form of that mindless violence leaps out into real life after germinating in the minds of the mentally unstable, people who may be of any or no political persuasion. All they have, these purveyors of random, senseless, mayhem, is a certainty that we live in apocalyptic times, the only solution for which is a murderous rampage.
Contemporary American culture is awash in graphic representations of extreme violence. Coupled with the "if it bleeds it leads" ethos of modern news gathering, is it any wonder we are a nation afflicted by a paranoid fear that our society is decaying into madness? The stories we tell ourselves for entertainment bleed back into real life via the mentally unstable. We react in fear and express uncomprehending sadness.
But, the old saying, you are what you eat, is even more true of the mind than of the body. You are what you think. Stuff your head with tales of violence and you will live in a poisoned landscape of your own making, full of paranoid delusions. Then when someone acts out on the basis of their own similar delusions you can always relieve the tension by playing a few hours of Grand Theft Auto. It's the American way.
2
Can you necessarily say the gunman was deranged? He crossed a line to commit a crime, but he seems to have known exactly what he was doing and why. He had the same general origin as any terrorist: in his mind, he had suffered repeated insults, he didn't view his victims as innocent, and he felt otherwise powerless to effect any change. Writing off as insane this evidently human response to powerlessness seems overly facile.
If no effort is made to understand how people get to the point of snapping, and such people are just written off as deranged lone wolves, then what ability do we have to prevent such tragedies in the future? How can we stop others from committing similar acts if their struggles are not acknowledged before it's too late?
Just saying - you'll not get anywhere stopping monsters by treating them as monsters rather than people in distress. It's condescension, disenfranchisement, and, moreover, _suppression_ that push people to act on their anger in monstrous ways, yet we seem to blame their anger instead. It's easier to blame vitriolic rhetoric than the fact society says back to angry people, "I don't care who you are, what you think, or what your problems are."
If no effort is made to understand how people get to the point of snapping, and such people are just written off as deranged lone wolves, then what ability do we have to prevent such tragedies in the future? How can we stop others from committing similar acts if their struggles are not acknowledged before it's too late?
Just saying - you'll not get anywhere stopping monsters by treating them as monsters rather than people in distress. It's condescension, disenfranchisement, and, moreover, _suppression_ that push people to act on their anger in monstrous ways, yet we seem to blame their anger instead. It's easier to blame vitriolic rhetoric than the fact society says back to angry people, "I don't care who you are, what you think, or what your problems are."
2
I appreciate this editorial, both for the sentiments carefully expressed, and for the comments that this article has elicited.
I am less struck by the inauthentic finger-wagging of those who are suddenly concerned about the 'provocative rhetoric', and far more astonished at the lack of sophistication demonstrated by these latecomers. These same fatuous people throw their one-use dental flossers mindlessly to the ground, oblivious to the idea that another ten-million people are hurling THEIRS to the pavement.
When a politician makes inflammatory statements to a crowd, and by extension, millions of like-minded followers, following on the Internet....these words echo and bounce through the collective consciousness. It isn't like a fart, which will rapidly dissipate, quickly losing its power. No, these words are working their insidious power, long after they leave the mouths of those who wish to arouse the masses. You cannot control the longevity, the destructive potential, once you have unleashed these incantations. This Golem will turn on all men, not just the ones you oppose.
I am less struck by the inauthentic finger-wagging of those who are suddenly concerned about the 'provocative rhetoric', and far more astonished at the lack of sophistication demonstrated by these latecomers. These same fatuous people throw their one-use dental flossers mindlessly to the ground, oblivious to the idea that another ten-million people are hurling THEIRS to the pavement.
When a politician makes inflammatory statements to a crowd, and by extension, millions of like-minded followers, following on the Internet....these words echo and bounce through the collective consciousness. It isn't like a fart, which will rapidly dissipate, quickly losing its power. No, these words are working their insidious power, long after they leave the mouths of those who wish to arouse the masses. You cannot control the longevity, the destructive potential, once you have unleashed these incantations. This Golem will turn on all men, not just the ones you oppose.
2
From Europe, the US appears absolutely insane to allow easy access to firearms. Mass shootings are a normal everyday event in the US, and they should never be normal. Unless the GOP stops chasing NRA kickbacks at the expense of life the shootings will only get worse as the political divide widens thanks to Trump. I am not optimistic about the future safety of America's public spaces.
5
Neither am I optimistic of the safety of public spaces in much of Europe. Paris, London, Nice, Hamburg, Berlin and many other cities have recently experienced truck attacks. Perhaps you guys should stop easy access to trucks.
4
Nothing justifies this attack, but when we consider the Right's fanatic defense of guns and, consequently, gun violence through the years, it shouldn't be a surprise that some on the Left have finally decided to start shooting back.
3
It is indeed ironic that the very lawmakers in Washington, DC who are supposed to be doing everything they can to ensure that Americans are safe are the very ones fostering guns, shootings, violence in the name of their shameless god, GREED.
The American taxpayers pays millions of dollars everyday to keep lawmakers, Trump and his family safe, while they have to live in an ever endless war zone wherever they are . Whether they are in an elementary school, a cinema, a shopping mall, nightclub, at work, UPS store, etc...
When will the cowardly A+ lawmakers put an end to this senseless slaughter
and start getting F's?
The 1% can have their bodyguards and bulletproof cars, but what about the rest of the Americans? Enough is enough! It is time to follow Australia's example and keep the Americans safe.
The American taxpayers pays millions of dollars everyday to keep lawmakers, Trump and his family safe, while they have to live in an ever endless war zone wherever they are . Whether they are in an elementary school, a cinema, a shopping mall, nightclub, at work, UPS store, etc...
When will the cowardly A+ lawmakers put an end to this senseless slaughter
and start getting F's?
The 1% can have their bodyguards and bulletproof cars, but what about the rest of the Americans? Enough is enough! It is time to follow Australia's example and keep the Americans safe.
Since humans first swung out of the trees and picked up a rock to throw, weapons have been devised with the purpose being to kill be it for food or other humans, If the 2nd amendment guarantees the right of individuals to bear arms doesn't it guarantee the right of individuals to be killed by those arms? I wonder if all the victims of yesterday's mass shootings are happy that their right to be the victims was not violated. I just read the bill of rights. No where does it define "arms".Not one word of guns.How about swords, switchblade, spears, maces or sharply pointed sticks,Perhaps our spineless congress should define arms. Oh wait, there is no one out there lobbying for rocks.
Politicians cannot have it both ways. You can't insinuate that it's okay to shoot your opponents during your campaign and then be shocked when people start taking your advice (looking at you, Trump). Sure, you'll get more votes from insane people, but at what cost?
Gun-rights advocates are primly lecturing that this shooting should not be politicized, that it's not an appropriate time to bring up gun control.
OK. When IS the right time?
Thought so.
OK. When IS the right time?
Thought so.
How ironic. At a time when Congress and the NRA are trying to let people use silencers on their guns that this should take place. If the shooter had used a silencer the other players on the field may have thought Scalice was having a heart attack and run to him. Then the shooter could have shot them all. But the bill to allow silencers is expected to pass.
3
Someone else who thinks a silencer makes no noise.
1
A gun with a suppressor (the proper word for so-called "silencers") still produces between 110 and 140 dB of sound pressure (equivalent to an ambulance or police siren). Sorry to disappoint you but the "silencer" that movie heroes like James Bond uses doesn't make gunfire anywhere near inaudible.
1
The question that should be asked every time someone deflects with the self-defense canard about guns:
Why do you want to make it any easier for violent criminals and people who are likely to attack others or themselves to obtain a firearm?
Because in the end, this is the goal of the NRA. A saner, NRA from a generation ago advocated more training and better legislation, but that was because it was a hunting and hobbyist group. The NRA of the present is a lobbying firm for the arms industry and absolutely nothing more. All arguments otherwise are spurious and detached from reality. There is no threat of home invasion to your suburban/rural home. And for those that argue having a gun is for defense against an unjust government-is that still your argument today? Go ahead, Mr. Lapierre, please tell Rep Scalise that he is the tyrant you've been stoking fears against for your whole career.
Today's NRA takes their donations in cash from the industry, but it's victims all pay in blood.
Why do you want to make it any easier for violent criminals and people who are likely to attack others or themselves to obtain a firearm?
Because in the end, this is the goal of the NRA. A saner, NRA from a generation ago advocated more training and better legislation, but that was because it was a hunting and hobbyist group. The NRA of the present is a lobbying firm for the arms industry and absolutely nothing more. All arguments otherwise are spurious and detached from reality. There is no threat of home invasion to your suburban/rural home. And for those that argue having a gun is for defense against an unjust government-is that still your argument today? Go ahead, Mr. Lapierre, please tell Rep Scalise that he is the tyrant you've been stoking fears against for your whole career.
Today's NRA takes their donations in cash from the industry, but it's victims all pay in blood.
3
The question that should be asked every time someone deflects with the self-defense canard about guns:
=====================
According to the CDC it's not a "canard":
Defensive uses of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence, although the exact number remains disputed. Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year, in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008
https://www.nap.edu/read/18319/chapter/1
=====================
According to the CDC it's not a "canard":
Defensive uses of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence, although the exact number remains disputed. Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year, in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008
https://www.nap.edu/read/18319/chapter/1
1
The idea of children being exposed to guns in ballparks is chilling, and foretells the end of all community sport and educational facilities. It's no coincidence that the base actors of the GOP denied Sandy Hook even happened. White men who deny reality will die by gunfire in even larger numbers, and on the white man's traditional turf, as long as spineless lawmakers continue to cower behind the money-grubbing corrupt NRA.
1
Are these Republicans kidding me. Bring a gun while playing baseball. What could possibly happen while your sliding to base?
What about in the beach or the pool--should we be packing there too?
What about in the beach or the pool--should we be packing there too?
1
The mere fact that people use and need guns which are killing machines, demonstrates that we have not progressed as a human race....sad as it is..it is true.
Your right Editors. These two horrific acts on Wednesday are getting to be a big part of our culture. We are an angry gun toting society. Our too long primary season was a perfect example. Hate speech all over the place. No wonder Congress can't work out decent and fair healthcare or tax reform. They are living out our polarization. Everybody has a gun. Now they want them in schools. And the NRA wants more and more on the streets. In the primary our president egged on screaming crowds to jail or kill Clinton. Militias supported him. Will we ever learn anything?
2
When will the right to live without the fear of being shot trump the right to bear arms?
If we took gun rights away from people who are known to have been physically violent against their family members--like this man who was known to beat his daughter--we would make a little progress.
4
I'm grateful that Hodgkinson was shot before harming any others on that baseball field.
5
Excuse me, this is not about guns. It's about hate speech and incitement and sore losing Democrats who keep veering left from an already very extreme left. You want examples? Start here, with a review of Mr. Blow's columns past six months. Then to editor Baquet's startling admission that he was willing to go to jail if necessary to stop Trump. End also here, by reviewing Mr. Sanders' column earlier this week, urging, if not taunting, en masse grass-roots action at anything and everything Trump. Days before the shooting. Bah.
15
Thank you – finally, someone dares to challenge the narrative required by the Democrats. Their culture of violence, all the way up to their candidate's vow to 'resist,' their former AG's call for 'blood in the streets,' without even including the popular culture – black masked rioters, depictions of violence, etc. – should be looked at as establishing an acceptance for any means to achieve their end.
9
We are the arms merchant to the world, be in this morning's NYTimes we learn that civilians have been killed in one of our recent sorties in Syria. Remember Iraq and Afghanistan and Libya and VietNam. Why do we think we should be spared? Gun violence is more American than baseball.
2
Already Obama is being blamed. These crazy GOPs promote hate, promote fear and then blame everyone else. They are slaying dragons and then blaming the fair maiden.
Good grief. They get what they deserve since they oppose all gun reforms.
The mad man had a rifle and missed. Paul Ryan could have been killed. Ryan isn't turning over a new leaf given his life was saved by the grace of God, he is still just ugly, nasty Paul Ryan. Now, that is #SAD.
Good grief. They get what they deserve since they oppose all gun reforms.
The mad man had a rifle and missed. Paul Ryan could have been killed. Ryan isn't turning over a new leaf given his life was saved by the grace of God, he is still just ugly, nasty Paul Ryan. Now, that is #SAD.
3
Already Obama is being blamed
=============
Where? Who? haven't seen that at all
=============
Where? Who? haven't seen that at all
5
Paul Ryan was not present at the baseball practice yesterday morning. One wonders where you're getting your news.
3
Trump contradicts himself regularly, proving that he is a pathological liar. He has no respect for the institutions of democracy. He has called for violence against his political opponents, including protesters, numerous times, in public. Large numbers of military, police, and the most heavily armed reactionaries in the history of the world idolize him.
A fascist take over of the government, beginning with Trump canceling elections is not impossible.
That said, the left cannot fight fascism with violence. Any violence coming from the left is a propaganda score for the fascists, who only need a few acts of violence as an excuse to suspend the constitution, and/or go on a murderous rampage.
Few on the left have small arsenals in their homes or do weapons training. Picking a fight with these lunatics is the worst thing we can do.
The way to stop this is to focus on love over hate, peace over violence, cooperation over competition, win win solution over zero sum games, peaceful politics over civil war.
We do need a peaceful political revolution, though I prefer the word evolution. Our political system and mass media have been hijacked. But it must be peaceful.
The means are the ends. If you want a peaceful world you have to use peace to get there.
A fascist take over of the government, beginning with Trump canceling elections is not impossible.
That said, the left cannot fight fascism with violence. Any violence coming from the left is a propaganda score for the fascists, who only need a few acts of violence as an excuse to suspend the constitution, and/or go on a murderous rampage.
Few on the left have small arsenals in their homes or do weapons training. Picking a fight with these lunatics is the worst thing we can do.
The way to stop this is to focus on love over hate, peace over violence, cooperation over competition, win win solution over zero sum games, peaceful politics over civil war.
We do need a peaceful political revolution, though I prefer the word evolution. Our political system and mass media have been hijacked. But it must be peaceful.
The means are the ends. If you want a peaceful world you have to use peace to get there.
1
Because the congressmen out practicing would have been running bases and throwing balls with guns attached to their hips? Really?!
Odd words from Trump, a man not exactly known for safety or peace.
As for every American packing a gun on their hip, do you know of a better way for the NRA to make a profit? More money means more campaign donations to (R)s willing to vote Aye on whatever the NRA puts in front of them.
As for every American packing a gun on their hip, do you know of a better way for the NRA to make a profit? More money means more campaign donations to (R)s willing to vote Aye on whatever the NRA puts in front of them.
1
The NRA is a non-profit organization. They don't make a profit and they don't sell guns. But thanks for playing.
3
NYTimes take some time to look in the mirror! Your ad nauseam coverage of President Trump where nothing positive is ever noted, has added to the simmering hatred and hopelessness so many Americans feel. You cannot pour gasoline on a fire day after day after day, month after month and not expect a wildfire!
Yes, President Trump says stupid, hurtful things in his Tweets. Yes, the Republicans need to be reminded that their callous actions may well hurt tens of millions of Americans who may well have voted Republican last November.
But... the NYTimes and other media need to be more concerned about the mental health of Americans than getting high rating which equates to higher profits. You have got to lead by example!!
An adult cannot tell a child they are dumb, stupid, useless, a loser day after day and not expect the child to either think about killing themselves or lashing out and harming other people!!
Yes, President Trump says stupid, hurtful things in his Tweets. Yes, the Republicans need to be reminded that their callous actions may well hurt tens of millions of Americans who may well have voted Republican last November.
But... the NYTimes and other media need to be more concerned about the mental health of Americans than getting high rating which equates to higher profits. You have got to lead by example!!
An adult cannot tell a child they are dumb, stupid, useless, a loser day after day and not expect the child to either think about killing themselves or lashing out and harming other people!!
7
I just found a hate filled website full of distortions and outright lies that posts stuff on Facebook. There is an article from that site that says "the left" is celebrating the shooting of the Congressman at the baseball field. I started to post something saying that no reasonable person really thinks anyone is celebrating any of the shootings that have happened recently and no one should let themselves get sucked into that propaganda. But I see that a neighbor posted a response that says in part, " Sick of the left. We should just start the civil war now." I am appalled. And a little frightened. This site has real advertisers. I saw one ad for a major car company. And response after response to the article that just seem unhinged to me. Who is supporting these hate filled websites?
1
Who's supporting Bernie Sanders' hate speech? Or the hate speech of the NYT, WaPo, CNN, Rachel Maddow, etc?
6
As long as you democrats keep concentrating on gun control over taking back the government from the global billionaires, you will get neither.
They profit from violence, and from the chaos left in its wake.
They profit from violence, and from the chaos left in its wake.
No surprise. The surprise is that it had not happened sooner or more frequently. Bet it will not change most GOP and their stance on gun control. Would the early Republican party members even recognize the mean spirited nasty party it has become through the decades. I wonder if the party of deplorable, racist, compassionless bullies will ever get it?
1
We see the results of the lefts compassion every day in large cities completely controlled by democrats. Crime, drug abuse, broken families and no hope for a better future. Now democrats would like to expand on the welfare state- bring it to every corner of our nation.
No thanks.
No thanks.
2
Neither horrified or shocked. I am going to save those emotions for ordinary citizens caught in the crossfire in our neighborhood parks, for the mother who sends her child running for a closet or bathtub when shooting breaks out, for the same mother who loses a child. for the child killed in the backseat of the family car because of drive by shooting. Welcome to the real world, old white men. A world you helped create - Do you like it now?
2
dt (aka president bannon) set the "tone" of the current national mood. No surprise that the loons take their cues from extremists either right or left.
Can dems and Repub rise above? Given who is in power now and the president, I'm not hopeful.
Who amongst the 60 % of dissatisfied Americans will step up? And it ain't Bernie....
Can dems and Repub rise above? Given who is in power now and the president, I'm not hopeful.
Who amongst the 60 % of dissatisfied Americans will step up? And it ain't Bernie....
1
The gunman's derangement comes from his politics - his belief in the Socialist Utopia promised by Bernie "More Free Stuff" Sanders.
6
The editors are side-stepping the real issue by harping on guns. The real issue is the political radicalism and violent, unceasing protests of the "resistance." Sorry, but this is one of your free-range chickens come home to roost.
5
You cannot denounce the right for accusing the left of creating an atmosphere of hate without also admitting that it was wrong for the left to make the very same argument when they chose to do so about Gifford's shooter....but then again Dems enjoy living in Wonderland where the rules of logic don't bother them.
6
President Trump, if you really want to "Make America Great Again", please bring us back to the days where we could walk down the street, go to school, work, the ballpark, etc., without having to worry about getting shot.
39
Look, let's move beyond all the pretense here: America has most often settled a lot of its grudges with guns. It's the wild west, remember? Do I condone such violence? No. But "High Noon at the OK Corral" has been a part of our legacy.
The shooter was "distraught" about current political polices. Plenty of people are. He took a gun to it. Unfortunately as more and more of the common people are left behind in today's toxic political world, there will be more events like this.
As for congressional people serving because they love their country: Maybe a few are still motivated by such ideals. For the most part, what I see is greed, collusion, kleptocracy, and an ever widening divide between those who have and those who have not. Please note the age of the shooter: He was of the age where many of us are most vulnerable to merciless changes to medicare, medicare, social security, etc. Desperate times for many people. Congress is unplugged from that fact. And certainly Donald Trump is as well. The "Let Them Eat Cake" attitude exuded by many lawmakers today, has it's consequences. Unfortunate but also let's get real.
The shooter was "distraught" about current political polices. Plenty of people are. He took a gun to it. Unfortunately as more and more of the common people are left behind in today's toxic political world, there will be more events like this.
As for congressional people serving because they love their country: Maybe a few are still motivated by such ideals. For the most part, what I see is greed, collusion, kleptocracy, and an ever widening divide between those who have and those who have not. Please note the age of the shooter: He was of the age where many of us are most vulnerable to merciless changes to medicare, medicare, social security, etc. Desperate times for many people. Congress is unplugged from that fact. And certainly Donald Trump is as well. The "Let Them Eat Cake" attitude exuded by many lawmakers today, has it's consequences. Unfortunate but also let's get real.
Well the MSM and our phonies in Congress would not like reality intruding on their narrative. But you're right. Well put.
As for all the pain and suffering that Scalise and his family are going through, it's a common experience for THOUSANDS of families in this country. Exacerbated by politicians like Scalise. At least he has great health insurance. Will this attack on him change his mind about sensible gun control? One can only hope, but somehow I doubt it. Not a thing changed after Gabby Giffords was shot in the head. Not a thing.
As for all the pain and suffering that Scalise and his family are going through, it's a common experience for THOUSANDS of families in this country. Exacerbated by politicians like Scalise. At least he has great health insurance. Will this attack on him change his mind about sensible gun control? One can only hope, but somehow I doubt it. Not a thing changed after Gabby Giffords was shot in the head. Not a thing.
I grew up with guns and was taught by my father, who was in law enforcement, how to shoot. He also taught me gun safety and especially responsibility for each bullet (handgun) or shell (shotgun) that left my weapon. I loved target shooting and had many good times at local shooting contests. I loved my gun in later years and felt safer with it in my home.
Then Newtown happened and everything changed for me. It divided time. There was before Newtown and after Newtown. It broke my heart. I realized that I could not be part of gun culture in any way and sold my gun. It's difficult to describe the internal shift from valuing armed self-protection to just letting go of that whole mindset. Those children and educators took the bullets, in a way, for me and changed me deeply. I am no longer afraid to take a bullet (not that owning a gun made me safer anyway) for them. I will hold their spirits close to me forever.
Then Newtown happened and everything changed for me. It divided time. There was before Newtown and after Newtown. It broke my heart. I realized that I could not be part of gun culture in any way and sold my gun. It's difficult to describe the internal shift from valuing armed self-protection to just letting go of that whole mindset. Those children and educators took the bullets, in a way, for me and changed me deeply. I am no longer afraid to take a bullet (not that owning a gun made me safer anyway) for them. I will hold their spirits close to me forever.
3
Thank you for that. Newtown should have become the dividing line for everyone. The memory of those little children and the other victims is owed honor. Republicans in Congress won't act, so we have to do whatever we can on a personal level which might mean donating to the Brady Center, using gun background checks as a voting issue, or not voting for anyone who celebrates gun culture through their campaign ads or rhetoric.
Reading the shooter's Facebook page and anti-Trump rants, I saw that he was no more anti-Trump than me or hundreds of others I know and interact with on Facebook who share virtually every feeling/view he stated there. All of us also feel the Congressional GOP are his enablers. In addition, we've had numerous discussions of how we might have to take to the streets to help oust Trump. He is that bad to us. But that "take to the streets" would be in protests. Would we pick up arms to go after either Trump or his GOP enablers? No. We would acquiesce and the GOP know that. They know we will be Americans first and partisans second -- unlike the approach they take in wild gerrymandering, suppression of Democratic votes, and even stealing a Supreme Court seat.
4
This is the result of a deliberate incomplete reading of the second amendment by Republicans. No one can cherry pick the consequences of their decisions.
2
I will listen to your complaint about the original intent of the 2nd when you write it down with a quill on parchment paper.
1
Admirable correction to the original, not quite on a par with Pelosi's excellent example of civility, but a step in the right direction.
1
The troubling thing for me is that hate and intolerance have become the go to reaction of so many. Apparently its good for business too as the media seems to almost revel in reporting it, dissecting it and to a point participating in it as do politicians, business leaders, and so many other that have influence on the general population. Assuming gun control or lack thereof is the problem that needs to be dealt with seems simplistic to me as it doesn't deal with the underlying issues at all. Go ahead and impose gun control it won't stop the hate or the intolerance that is ripping apart this society.
5
One of the oddest things about this tragedy is that none of these Republican politicians was armed. Their rhetoric includes sound bites like "a bad man with a gun will be stopped by a good man with a gun" and they scoff at the Democratic position that law enforcement is there for that reason. Republicans have long argued that more armed Americans equals more safety. Yet their reaction to this attack was exactly the same as that of ordinary Americans caught in the all-too familiar mass shooting scenario. They ran. They hid. They waited for law enforcement. Could it be that their political rhetoric about more citizens with guns being necessary for public safety is not sincere?
2
People don't typically carry guns when participating in athletic events. Since they would be going to the capital DC after practice- guns are outlawed there.
The gun laws in DC do not allow carrying a weapon.
2
By their own logic, guns are outlawed in the Capitol, so THEY can be safe. For the rest of us, well, too bad.
1
I think what is happening in America is a reflexive traumatic response. First, we say they were mentally ill, which is not supported by psychological research studies. Again, there is NO relationship between mental illness and gun violence. There is no relationship between mental illness and violence. Please say that 10Xs because the media and everyone else will fill in the blanks with an answer that is false and not helpful. Next, we say well what if more people were armed? And yes, we actually have more guns each year and what is that getting us? What I would wish is that something extraordinary happens. We all stop and reflect about what happened and truly, deeply why is it happening? We are the smartest most innovative country on earth. Americans are also so kind and loving but yet, we have this remarkable dark, violent, most lethal, gun violence. Why? I think we can get to it from many angles, but the intention must truly be to prevent and mitigate gun violence.
Violence is TYPICAL for the Sanders-Obama-Clinton inspired left. Come to Oregon during one of the leftist riots, being passed off as a "protest" by the media. I have a huge dent in the back of my SUV where these animals tried to pry off the rear door to frighten or harm my children. I wished I'd had a gun that day. The left are the American ISIS.
3
This event was disheartening and gut-wrenching. If past is prologue, we will be advised by those on the left and the right that 'now is not the time to politicize this issue.'
Although I agree that it is unhelpful to engage in tit-for-tat blaming on which side of the political aisle is most responsible for heated rhetoric that 'leads to violence,' it seems to me that the more salient and operative question - whose answer is a political one - is why we are allowing mentally disturbed people of ANY political stripe access to military firearms?
Although we cannot stop crazy people from taking radical views, our political system has the means, if not the will, to prevent them from inflicting so much damage. Time to step up.
Although I agree that it is unhelpful to engage in tit-for-tat blaming on which side of the political aisle is most responsible for heated rhetoric that 'leads to violence,' it seems to me that the more salient and operative question - whose answer is a political one - is why we are allowing mentally disturbed people of ANY political stripe access to military firearms?
Although we cannot stop crazy people from taking radical views, our political system has the means, if not the will, to prevent them from inflicting so much damage. Time to step up.
3
I choose not to be a sitting duck for left wing lunatics bent on killing me or my family out if their paranoid delusions, fueled by the NYT's distorted reporting and the screeching of monsters like Ron Wyfen, Kamala Harris, and Chuck Schumer. I want to be able to defend myself. We are apparently in the early stages of a Democrat inspired move to overturn the election and kill Trump supporters. We will not die like sheep.
2
I'm the rarest of Left-wing birds: I go to gun shows, belong to a range, own an AR-15, and have a lot of professional training. And yes, I support gun control.
We need not a patchwork but a national system. Confiscation of weapons would not work, without civil war. Yet the studies cited are not enough: what has happened when well trained conceal-carry users defend themselves? I don't carry a gun, but I'd like to know.
What would work best would be insuring that every gun owner is sane and has proper training. The NRA would hate it, but I've long advocated the following:
--Universal background checks for all firearm purchases, new or used
--Mandatory, police-certified training with regular re-qualification. For a revolver the training would be straightforward but would include how to use the weapon in self defense. The bar would be higher for conceal-carry or semiautomatic pistols, higher still for what the media wrongly call "assault rifles" (those can fire an automatic short burst) but are actually military-style tactical rifles that fire a single shot each time the trigger is pulled.
I have spent $400 on two excellent self-defense classes, taught by a professional. Any gun-owner needs to be ready to spend a couple of hundred dollars on training, far less than the cost of a gun, before being permitted to carry. Gun ranges should flock to such laws, because they would profit.
Instead, the NRA and its absolutist allies will dig in their heels once again.
We need not a patchwork but a national system. Confiscation of weapons would not work, without civil war. Yet the studies cited are not enough: what has happened when well trained conceal-carry users defend themselves? I don't carry a gun, but I'd like to know.
What would work best would be insuring that every gun owner is sane and has proper training. The NRA would hate it, but I've long advocated the following:
--Universal background checks for all firearm purchases, new or used
--Mandatory, police-certified training with regular re-qualification. For a revolver the training would be straightforward but would include how to use the weapon in self defense. The bar would be higher for conceal-carry or semiautomatic pistols, higher still for what the media wrongly call "assault rifles" (those can fire an automatic short burst) but are actually military-style tactical rifles that fire a single shot each time the trigger is pulled.
I have spent $400 on two excellent self-defense classes, taught by a professional. Any gun-owner needs to be ready to spend a couple of hundred dollars on training, far less than the cost of a gun, before being permitted to carry. Gun ranges should flock to such laws, because they would profit.
Instead, the NRA and its absolutist allies will dig in their heels once again.
4
How about a requirement that anybody with a concealed gun permit carry liability insurance, just like with cars? Another layer of protection. First, it would weed out a lot of fools from the git go. Second it would tell would-be packers that it's dangerous--not like on TV. Third it would at least assure dead and wounded bystanders recompense.
1
Gun culture has become inextricably tangled with politics thanks to the NRA. 90% of all Americans want universal background checks, and yet Trump and the GOP just enacted a bill that expands gun rights to those with mental illnesses. They rant about terrorism, but have no problem with people on terrorist watch lists obtaining weapons. The US is now touted as the go-to gun market for terrorists, both domestic and international.
Why do so many politicians - particularly Republicans - think they must have political ads showing them brandishing weapons or targets? They obviously identify their idea of strength and power with guns, but this is about pleasing the NRA.
Why do terrible atrocities such as the slaughter of the little children at Sandy Hook get swept under a rug by Republicans? Why were there no laws that addressed the problems of massacres? In Georgia, against the wishes of college faculty, presidents and students, the governor signed a law that permits weapons on campuses of public schools. Many of these laws are against the wishes of the communities involved.
Trump bragged that he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and not lose supporters. Why the violent language all the time? Republicans have touted "Second Amendment solutions" and used other violent language.
Before recent NRA lobbying, a peaceful society did not look like a war zone. This is all thanks to the NRA manufacturers and gun sellers.
Why do so many politicians - particularly Republicans - think they must have political ads showing them brandishing weapons or targets? They obviously identify their idea of strength and power with guns, but this is about pleasing the NRA.
Why do terrible atrocities such as the slaughter of the little children at Sandy Hook get swept under a rug by Republicans? Why were there no laws that addressed the problems of massacres? In Georgia, against the wishes of college faculty, presidents and students, the governor signed a law that permits weapons on campuses of public schools. Many of these laws are against the wishes of the communities involved.
Trump bragged that he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and not lose supporters. Why the violent language all the time? Republicans have touted "Second Amendment solutions" and used other violent language.
Before recent NRA lobbying, a peaceful society did not look like a war zone. This is all thanks to the NRA manufacturers and gun sellers.
2
This shooter had access to guns, was able to purchase a semi-automatic and plenty of ammunition, and possessed a conceal carry permit, but had apparently no real skill at hitting a target. Otherwise, those injured would be dead. Wondering why it is possible for anyone to purchase these weapons and obtain a permit without competency in shooting. And the gun lobby thinks everyone should be able to carry a lethal weapon, skilled or not.
I now live a few miles from where Gabby Giffords was shot.
The event in Arlington could easily have been a slaughter, easily because a crazed person had an assault weapon and used it for precisely the reason assault weapons were created: battlefield assaults on other human beings.
Much was made about the fact that the three terrorists in London were armed with plastic knives, but in the U.S. they almost certainly would have been armed with assault weapons and their toll would have been vastly higher.
There's nothing sporting about assault weapons. We must rid our nation of them except for our active military.
The event in Arlington could easily have been a slaughter, easily because a crazed person had an assault weapon and used it for precisely the reason assault weapons were created: battlefield assaults on other human beings.
Much was made about the fact that the three terrorists in London were armed with plastic knives, but in the U.S. they almost certainly would have been armed with assault weapons and their toll would have been vastly higher.
There's nothing sporting about assault weapons. We must rid our nation of them except for our active military.
1
Yes, Trump said something reasonable for a change - "remember that everyone who serves in our nation's capital is here because above all, they love our country" and that we must come together.
Thankfully Trump chose to refrain from the kind of hate-mongering partisan statement he made last year right after the Orlando shooting, about one of those then "serving in our nation's capital," President Obama, outrageously insinuating that the President had something to do with the shooting:
"Look, we're led by a man that either is not tough, not smart, or he's got something else in mind. And the something else in mind — you know, people can't believe it. People cannot, they cannot believe that President Obama is acting the way he acts and can't even mention the words 'radical Islamic terrorism.' There's something going on. It's inconceivable. There's something going on."
I don't believe a word out of Trump's mouth. What he said back then was for political advantage, and what he said yesterday was likewise. He hasn't gained compassion or patriotism, he's only gotten a little smarter.
Thankfully Trump chose to refrain from the kind of hate-mongering partisan statement he made last year right after the Orlando shooting, about one of those then "serving in our nation's capital," President Obama, outrageously insinuating that the President had something to do with the shooting:
"Look, we're led by a man that either is not tough, not smart, or he's got something else in mind. And the something else in mind — you know, people can't believe it. People cannot, they cannot believe that President Obama is acting the way he acts and can't even mention the words 'radical Islamic terrorism.' There's something going on. It's inconceivable. There's something going on."
I don't believe a word out of Trump's mouth. What he said back then was for political advantage, and what he said yesterday was likewise. He hasn't gained compassion or patriotism, he's only gotten a little smarter.
Does anyone advocating that we all carry more guns have a suggestion on how I would adjust my approach to sliding into third with a sidearm (that doesn't involve shooting the Third Baseman)?
"Is (this) the (society) Americans want?" The answer is - apparently. Or more accurately - this is the kind of society Americans have been sold for the last 40 years because there is no level of depravity, no measure of horror, no amount of injustice that those who profit from this madness will not force Americans to endure. There was a time, not so long ago, where decision makers would repeal in anger and disgust and say "no!, I am not willing to use my power to go there, just for the sake of profit". Not anymore. Everything can and will be monetized today, no matter how harmful and destructive it may be. Ask yourself this question - "why do we have the sick society we now live in?" Is it because American people want this kind of society? Or is it because they have been sold this kind of society, for so long, they have forgotten not only what a healthy society used to be (and can be again), they no longer even question it. They accept the reality. Take any of our many societal ills and ask - "why does this exist now, but didn't 40 years ago?" Mass murders every other day. Unrelenting gun violence. School shootings. Opioid addiction. The destruction of the middle class. The crushing student loan debt of an entire generation. The answer is the same for all of these societal ills - someone made a decision to profit from it. Some powerful decision maker said - "I can make money off this so, yeah, I'll go there, no matter how destructive the outcome will be."
1
The horrific shooting at our nation's capitol proves once again that the only way to stop a bad person with a gun is a good person with a gun. The shooter in this case legally purchased his firearms in Illinois; a state with stronger than average gun laws. The fallacy behind gun control laws (labeled "gun safety" laws by anti-gunners) is that we can somehow magically determine who is likely to misuse a gun a week, a month, a year, or even a decade in the future. Those who would deny firearms to "the people" in violation of the Constitution would deny good people the means to defend themselves against armed criminals. Such laws have little effect on criminals who, by definition, do not obey laws.
2
Since the founding of this country, continued via the gun lobby domestically and via the military abroad, Might has been Right; conflicts are still settled using violence. Presidents alone have been assassinated at a rate more frequent than should be the case for a modern democracy.
The recent uptick in violence has been clearly brought upon by the rise of the Trump administration implicitly or explicitly condoning it: journalists physically threatened, immigrants targeted with messages of hate, their defenders attacked and killed.
Violence begets violence:now that it involves a violent Sanders supporter (which I do no condone, just as I did not support Sanders' own position on gun control), suddenly violence is no longer deemed acceptable as a way to settle conflicts, 'leftist' messages are now considered 'hate' messages.
What is wrong with this picture?
The recent uptick in violence has been clearly brought upon by the rise of the Trump administration implicitly or explicitly condoning it: journalists physically threatened, immigrants targeted with messages of hate, their defenders attacked and killed.
Violence begets violence:now that it involves a violent Sanders supporter (which I do no condone, just as I did not support Sanders' own position on gun control), suddenly violence is no longer deemed acceptable as a way to settle conflicts, 'leftist' messages are now considered 'hate' messages.
What is wrong with this picture?
2
It's very interesting to observe the knee-jerk reactions of Congress to this tragedy with their bi-partisan call to tone down the rhetorical extremism so prevalent in today's political discourse. That's all well and good but what about addressing the manner in which Congress, particularly Congressional Republicans, conduct the people's business? It never occurs to them that stifling any minority participation in legislation via the "Hastart Rule," gerrymandering themselves into job security and lifetime health care or supporting voter suppression efforts might also contribute to the committing of unconscionable political violence? From what we know of the shooter he was not just an unhinged madman, but a politically active one. You can't merely blame the rhetoric and tone of today's politics at root here. How about some Congressional introspection about the way people are disenfranchised by the "zero sum" behavior of their representatives, for a start.
The outrage and soul searching over this shooting seems disingenuous for two reasons.
1) Gun violence rears its ugly head not only when a politician is shot. Every single day in every state and every major city of America. The very politicians that were shot a yesterday are responsibile to do something about the former. But they do not.
2) The political leadership of this country sowing of division with their rethoric and immovable and extreme positions is an invitiation to radicalisation of the people; in thought and unfortunately at times in action.
The president said" "We can all agree that we are blessed to be Americans, that our children deserve to grow up in a nation of safety and peace." If to be American is a blessing, why then does he separate American Children from their Mexican parents by expulsion rather than integration? Do these American Children really believe they are blessed, safe and in peace?
1) Gun violence rears its ugly head not only when a politician is shot. Every single day in every state and every major city of America. The very politicians that were shot a yesterday are responsibile to do something about the former. But they do not.
2) The political leadership of this country sowing of division with their rethoric and immovable and extreme positions is an invitiation to radicalisation of the people; in thought and unfortunately at times in action.
The president said" "We can all agree that we are blessed to be Americans, that our children deserve to grow up in a nation of safety and peace." If to be American is a blessing, why then does he separate American Children from their Mexican parents by expulsion rather than integration? Do these American Children really believe they are blessed, safe and in peace?
1
America is always a violent nation and even violence on the floor of congress between members is part of our history. Abraham Lincoln, JFK , MLK and Malcolm X were killed by guns and Ronald Reagan was shot. We love guns and we have to some price for this love of guns. We have more homicide and gun violence than all the European countries and other Democratic countries combined. We have the biggest number of citizens in jail in the world. Our political discourse is really uncivilized. Our right wing radio talk shows polarized the nation . Mass shootings and serial killers news do not bother us any more. Now our president is very busy in divide and rule. I am really scared to think the future of our country. Where we are going?
The liberals have had to endure 8 years of insulting comments, ugly cartoons, and threats against President Obama. Now the conservatives are surprised that their elected president receives the same treatment. The divide is there and growing wider. It won't be Trump or the GOP who brings this country back together.
Show me the "comedians" who posted images of President Obama's severed head. Obama didn't endure even 1/10000000000000 of what the left has inflicted on President Trump
3
dt is getting back what he gives. Most of us learn that when we are children. But apparently the president did not. His complete lack of simple dignity and integrity means he is going to be treated at that same level.
Whether you liked Obama or did not, at least he didn't continually embarrass himself or the office.
Whether you liked Obama or did not, at least he didn't continually embarrass himself or the office.
No matter what "the opposition" has done or said, violence is counterproductive. Enough of hate. Enough of violence in all its forms. Turn off the hate-filled radio. Oppose any and all who demonize those with whom we disagree. End hate now.
1
We can all pretty much agree that this particular person with a history of violent threats involving firearms should not have been allowed anywhere near a gun, right? With Congressmembers and staff who all happened to be Republicans now knowing exactly what it feels like to face a nut with an assault weapon, will we see sufficient empathy by them and their colleagues to decide the country can get along without their civilian use?
We know that free access to weapons means a small percentage will use them irresponsibly, or for evil. It is Im afraid a guarantee - everyone knows it was an inevitability, as will be the next and the next, be they schoolchildren, co-workers, or in this case politicians. And if the NRA has their way, that small percentage will be of a bigger number, and so there will be more mass killings. Its simple math. So whilst I am appalled by this event, the true tragedy is that more guns and less regulation equals more mass killings.
guarantee, and one that
guarantee, and one that
We already hear the request for less than more gun control laws.
With so many guns in private hands I wonder why there any law abiding citizen is prohibited to buy bullet proof vests.
With so many guns in private hands I wonder why there any law abiding citizen is prohibited to buy bullet proof vests.
Funny how guns and not political violence are to blame. It just so happens to mesh nicely with the Democratic point of view on guns. What a coincidence! But imagine if no one else was armed. There would have been mass carnage. That's exactly what happened at the Pulse nightclub. No one else was armed, so the gunman spent three leisurely hours shooting and killing people, searching bathrooms and other hiding places. That would not have happened if even one person had a firearm to stop him. But keep telling people that guns are bad and only evil people carry them. That will ensure that the next shooting victims are sitting ducks.
3
As usual the editorial board has hit the major points very well. I was thinking almost exactly the same things. The only positive political take away should be about gun control.
The 'resistance' in my view is getting dangerous not just in its rhetoric but in its deliberate disregard for the law in favor of a court of public opinion. This looks close to the Lewinsky scandal in terms of the law, except that Bill Clinton actually did lie to investigators, and he was guilty of a crime. I really doubt that any crime exists in Trump's case.
The people of this nation have been divided by two political parties that have the same economic goal but different means. Both parties are anti-democratic and some would say even fascist. The fascism fighters are confused because their enemy is both parties. They are getting confused by other social platforms, but in terms of political economy, these parties are pretty equal in their fascist, authoritarian goals.
I hope the party leaders listen to Sanders and move their platform. If they don't then I don't hold out hope for our system. It is probably going to fail in some catastrophic way. If they keep blaming Putin for it, they're delusional. While Putin might not like our strength, he would probably like our total collapse even less. No, the enemies of democracy our within both parties' economic agendas.
Some of us have become essential apolitical. I have no party and I probably won't vote in the next couple of elections.
The 'resistance' in my view is getting dangerous not just in its rhetoric but in its deliberate disregard for the law in favor of a court of public opinion. This looks close to the Lewinsky scandal in terms of the law, except that Bill Clinton actually did lie to investigators, and he was guilty of a crime. I really doubt that any crime exists in Trump's case.
The people of this nation have been divided by two political parties that have the same economic goal but different means. Both parties are anti-democratic and some would say even fascist. The fascism fighters are confused because their enemy is both parties. They are getting confused by other social platforms, but in terms of political economy, these parties are pretty equal in their fascist, authoritarian goals.
I hope the party leaders listen to Sanders and move their platform. If they don't then I don't hold out hope for our system. It is probably going to fail in some catastrophic way. If they keep blaming Putin for it, they're delusional. While Putin might not like our strength, he would probably like our total collapse even less. No, the enemies of democracy our within both parties' economic agendas.
Some of us have become essential apolitical. I have no party and I probably won't vote in the next couple of elections.
1
I implore all partisans, but especially now those on the Bernie/Hillary side of the aisle, not to resort to political violence. You would only give the vengeful person in the White House an excuse to impose martial law, to release the Kracken of wanna-be militias to patrol on his behalf, and to encourage individual vendettas from the deranged fringes on both sides.
The onus has until now been on the abundant and long-term incitement to violence emanating from the right, both explicit from the Current Occupant and on talk radio, and implied by demonization on Fox. This editorial seems to imply some kind of equal blame, that both sides are the same; here we go again with the false equivalence. The Resistance is dedicated to the right of NON-VIOLENT protest, in WORD and DEED, as guaranteed by the First Amendment. Let's keep it that way. and not give the NYT or anybody else to say, well, we do it, too, so everybody's equally to blame. They're not.
The onus has until now been on the abundant and long-term incitement to violence emanating from the right, both explicit from the Current Occupant and on talk radio, and implied by demonization on Fox. This editorial seems to imply some kind of equal blame, that both sides are the same; here we go again with the false equivalence. The Resistance is dedicated to the right of NON-VIOLENT protest, in WORD and DEED, as guaranteed by the First Amendment. Let's keep it that way. and not give the NYT or anybody else to say, well, we do it, too, so everybody's equally to blame. They're not.
I wonder...
I own 2 rifles, enjoy target shooting. At close range it is difficult to miss if you want to hit a target. The shooter used an assault rifle in yesterday's tragedy. If his intension was to kill many, how did he not kill many? His police guards did a great job. I wonder if his intension was to wound vs. kill people to make his point in a twisted manner about how our President and Republicans are hurting middle and poor America with policy decisions. I do not condone violence.
I own 2 rifles, enjoy target shooting. At close range it is difficult to miss if you want to hit a target. The shooter used an assault rifle in yesterday's tragedy. If his intension was to kill many, how did he not kill many? His police guards did a great job. I wonder if his intension was to wound vs. kill people to make his point in a twisted manner about how our President and Republicans are hurting middle and poor America with policy decisions. I do not condone violence.
You suggest a measure of thoughtfulness not usually found among narcissistic nuts like the shooter. Also. It's not like on TV.
1
• That is the society the gun lobby is working toward. Is it the one Americans want?
It sure seems like it.
“America..., just a nation of two hundred million used car salesmen with all the money we need to buy guns and no qualms about killing anybody else in the world who tries to make us uncomfortable.” ~ HUNTER S. THOMPSON
It sure seems like it.
“America..., just a nation of two hundred million used car salesmen with all the money we need to buy guns and no qualms about killing anybody else in the world who tries to make us uncomfortable.” ~ HUNTER S. THOMPSON
2
Presidents have been shot at, one, President Kennedy, died. Another, President Reagan, survived. Both President Kennedy's brother, Robert, and the Reverend Martin Luther King were assassinated in 1968. Democratic Representative Gabby Giffords was shot in 2011, survived but still suffers from physical disabilities. Twenty 6-year olds were murdered at Sandy Hook elementary school. Nine praying members at Mother Emmanuel Church were executed in South Carolina. Three brilliant and socially-involved Muslim students were killed in North Carolina. Schools, colleges, hospitals, nightclubs, theaters, shopping-malls, places where people work, play at sites all across the country have been targeted, leaving countless Americans dead or wounded. It would be wishful thinking to believe that Wednesday's shooting at a Republican baseball practice will force American politicians to stop accepting campaign donations from the National Rifle Association, NRA. This is in spite of the fact that several Republicans and some Capitol Hill police-force members are wounded, Representative Steve Scalise is listed in critical condition. Our politicians will not cut the ties that bind them to the NRA, because they and the organization prefer to put the profits of gun and ammunition makers ahead of the lives of American children, adults, Presidents, politicians and ordinary citizens. This carnage of Americans by other armed Americans will not stop until we, the people say, Enough is enough!
1
We all know what will be coming any time now. The NRA will claim that we already have tough gun laws and that they just need to be enforced. This is their reasoning for not enacting any new legislation even if the result is a dramatic decrease in gun violence. Then they will transport bags of cash off to Capital Hill to ensure Congress hears nothing and does nothing. It’s like Groundhog Day. The difference in this case is we learn nothing from one tragedy, to the next, to the next…………
3
Think about it: the scenario that everyone had a gun to defend him/herself and what would happen under a wide range of circumstances; and if no one, other than law enforcement and limited designated individuals had access to guns (as in most civilized countries).
With the latter, the NRA would go out of business, countless people would lose their livelihood and the self-righteous outcry would be tremendous; and many lives would be saved.
Of course, we know the answer: money trumps life.
With the latter, the NRA would go out of business, countless people would lose their livelihood and the self-righteous outcry would be tremendous; and many lives would be saved.
Of course, we know the answer: money trumps life.
3
I'm pretty sure that even most NRA members don't want or expect people to go to the gym, baseball practice, church, the supermarket, etc.. only when armed and vigilant. The gun extremists only suggest this to prevent anyone coming to the obvious conclusion that any rational person would have when exposed to the ever present danger of enraged and armed crazy people preventing the law abiding public from enjoying life without worry. We need to discern as implicit in the Constitution a right of the citizen to live in peace and without anxiety of sudden and avoidable death. This seems to be to be implied by the idea of 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness'.
1
Until very recently, I have never owned a gun. After what I saw at trump rallies, I decided to buy one. I watched, with horror, how trump would encourage his followers to "get him the hell outta here".
Since his election, there has been an open display of hate, mostly by trump supporters, but certain groups on the left are just as guilty. What is so truly disgusting is the silence from trump about these open displays of hate.
I've never needed a gun, and can not, in my mind, justify carrying a canceled weapon, but I don't know what will happen in this current atmosphere of hate and polarization.
Right now, the country is hugging and showing unity, Unfortunately, these displays of unity are very short lived and we go back to the open hostility shown on both sides of the isle. This country is being torn apart at the seams by the polarization now on display in our Nations Capitol, and the person who can speak out against this polarization is, instead, encouraging it.
Sad to say, this shooting yesterday will do little to quell either the violence or polarization. I fear that we have, as a nation passed the point of no return and it will take decades for us to get back into a more sane way of governing ourselves.
It's going to be a very bloody summer.
Since his election, there has been an open display of hate, mostly by trump supporters, but certain groups on the left are just as guilty. What is so truly disgusting is the silence from trump about these open displays of hate.
I've never needed a gun, and can not, in my mind, justify carrying a canceled weapon, but I don't know what will happen in this current atmosphere of hate and polarization.
Right now, the country is hugging and showing unity, Unfortunately, these displays of unity are very short lived and we go back to the open hostility shown on both sides of the isle. This country is being torn apart at the seams by the polarization now on display in our Nations Capitol, and the person who can speak out against this polarization is, instead, encouraging it.
Sad to say, this shooting yesterday will do little to quell either the violence or polarization. I fear that we have, as a nation passed the point of no return and it will take decades for us to get back into a more sane way of governing ourselves.
It's going to be a very bloody summer.
Ah. And there it is: "Liberals should of course be held to the same standard of decency that they ask of the right." Not, however that they receive from the Right, nor would it ever be confused with the standard that the Right sets for itself. The Left and Right are NOT two sides of a coin, essentially equal. They are very very different. Tolerance does not equal intolerance. Sustainable does not equal unsustainable.
It's not the guns but, lying articles from The NYT's, CNN and the left's double standard where the TRUTH is concerned. These so called propaganda media sources are directly responsible for the misinformed visceral hate and manipulation of the overprice (Un)educated who are stupider today than ever. They are not taught history, but are indoctrinated into a false narrative from the left which is devastating this country.
9
The editorial page has displayed an NRA ad. That ad shows a picture of an NRA cap, and below the following: 'Join NRA,' free shooter's cap. Annual membership for only $30.'
Who at The NYT has accepted an ad for the NRA and then placed that ad on the editorial page discussing yesterday's mass shootings in Virginia and San Francisco? Why would The NYT even accept an NRA ad no matter the circumstances?
This is grossly insensitive and blindly ignorant. Is nobody paying attention to the editorial and ad content?
Who at The NYT has accepted an ad for the NRA and then placed that ad on the editorial page discussing yesterday's mass shootings in Virginia and San Francisco? Why would The NYT even accept an NRA ad no matter the circumstances?
This is grossly insensitive and blindly ignorant. Is nobody paying attention to the editorial and ad content?
2
I, like any sensible person, am horrified by the latest shootings, and think they have no responsible place in our (or any) society.
Though I am generally not one to quote Rand Paul, perhaps it would not be out of line to quote his tweet of about a year ago, 6/23/2016, 11:48am, which read...
".@Judgenap: Why do we have a Second Amendment? It's not to shoot deer. It's to shoot at the government when it becomes tyrannical!"
...and ask him, now that his own party is being fired upon, if he still holds that opinion.
Though I am generally not one to quote Rand Paul, perhaps it would not be out of line to quote his tweet of about a year ago, 6/23/2016, 11:48am, which read...
".@Judgenap: Why do we have a Second Amendment? It's not to shoot deer. It's to shoot at the government when it becomes tyrannical!"
...and ask him, now that his own party is being fired upon, if he still holds that opinion.
4
And he is the government
I suppose it would be too much to expect the American left to admit that this attemped assassination was due to the constant intemperate calls for "resistance" in the media. Oh no. It's "just more gun violance". Rank hyprocrisy, if you ask me.
6
The self-importance of these Republicans is making me sick. Even tears from Paul Ryan, who didn't shed a one, that I saw, over the Sandy Hook murders of kindergarteners. The same day this happened, three people were actually killed in a shooting at a UPS facility in California, killed by an angry ex-employee. Two other people were injured in the shooting. Yet that incident has gotten almost no coverage, shaded over by a non-fatal shooting in a DC suburb.
I heard citations of those there about the "50 shots fired!". Isn't it Republicans who have thwarted gun control at every turn, including doing anything about magazines and assault rifles which can shoot of multiple rounds of ammo in a matter of seconds? Isn't it these same Republicans insisting that being armed is the answer to the loon with the gun? Well then, why weren't they armed? And will it dawn on them that it is not rational to suggest that people can be armed 24/7, the same people who for some reason think it IS rational to allow laypeople to own war-like weaponry.
It's just all so crazy. The NY Times is condemning this, as it should. Commenters - those horrid liberals - are wishing the victims well and reocovery and thanks that no one was killed. Meanwhile, over at FOX, Hannity is doing his best to make political hay out of this by suggesting that this shooter represents all left-wingers and that this was a left-wing assassination attempt. This is what happens when income gap is too wide.
I heard citations of those there about the "50 shots fired!". Isn't it Republicans who have thwarted gun control at every turn, including doing anything about magazines and assault rifles which can shoot of multiple rounds of ammo in a matter of seconds? Isn't it these same Republicans insisting that being armed is the answer to the loon with the gun? Well then, why weren't they armed? And will it dawn on them that it is not rational to suggest that people can be armed 24/7, the same people who for some reason think it IS rational to allow laypeople to own war-like weaponry.
It's just all so crazy. The NY Times is condemning this, as it should. Commenters - those horrid liberals - are wishing the victims well and reocovery and thanks that no one was killed. Meanwhile, over at FOX, Hannity is doing his best to make political hay out of this by suggesting that this shooter represents all left-wingers and that this was a left-wing assassination attempt. This is what happens when income gap is too wide.
1
I am not surprised at this shooting. I am not shocked either. It was inevitable. What does shock me is that the editorial board of this paper has turned the incident into a tome on gun control. For me, this shooting is the "logical" extension of the rhetoric of hate spewing forth against President Trump from every corner of the Far Left, including this newspaper. Trump is an easy target. His hateful campaign, and his five-year old petulance make him his own worst enemy. Nevertheless, we need to ask ourselves if we can continue this orgy of hate and not expect this result. It is time for us to figure out the politics of civility so that we can debate our differences without killing each other.
2
Trump started it though, his whole campaign was hate
1
"In fact, no such link was established."
Thank you but how did this nonsense get published in the first place?
Thank you but how did this nonsense get published in the first place?
6
A very good question. And I'm sure you know the answer.
When everything you see or read is from inside the bubble, you don't know what you don't know.
And, if your Public Editor keeps annoyingly pointing that out, you fire her.
When everything you see or read is from inside the bubble, you don't know what you don't know.
And, if your Public Editor keeps annoyingly pointing that out, you fire her.
6
You want talk radio hosts exaggerating everything and fanning the flames of hostility with no accountability or reprimand from the FCC for news distortion?
You wanna have unlimited firepower in the hands of untrained citizens?
You want unlimited amounts of ammunition?
You got it. And you also get what comes with it.
You live by the sword, you die by the sword.
Welcome to the hard core right wing NRA's version of making America Great Again. There will be more.
It's in the math, stupid. More weapons, more deaths. Period.
Sad.
You wanna have unlimited firepower in the hands of untrained citizens?
You want unlimited amounts of ammunition?
You got it. And you also get what comes with it.
You live by the sword, you die by the sword.
Welcome to the hard core right wing NRA's version of making America Great Again. There will be more.
It's in the math, stupid. More weapons, more deaths. Period.
Sad.
2
Seems to me that the people that are against gun control claim that their lives will be safer if they can have guns at the ready at all times. Now, if this is the prerequisite for safety, then, like safety belts in a car, it should be prohibited to be driving without (because having people dying or being seriously injured, especially if they are young or of working age, is a social and economic challenge, right? Therefore, the safety belt), so, mandatory guns on all citizens of the USA is the only reasonable way to a safer USA.
Let´s see how thay plays out.
Let´s see how thay plays out.
Many commenters here have emphasized the need for denying access to guns to the mentally ill, and of course that makes sense. However, I've seen no news stories claiming that Mr Hodgkinson was anything other than rational. But the Editorial Board claims here that he "was surely deranged". Evidence, please!
It's easy to write off these incidents as being the result of a madman. It's a lot harder to fix the problem when it is normal, rational, mentally healthy people committing these acts of violence.
As I see it, the fact that the country is awash with guns is the problem. It is time to repeal the second amendment. Yes, I do want to take your guns away!
It's easy to write off these incidents as being the result of a madman. It's a lot harder to fix the problem when it is normal, rational, mentally healthy people committing these acts of violence.
As I see it, the fact that the country is awash with guns is the problem. It is time to repeal the second amendment. Yes, I do want to take your guns away!
1
It may be splitting hairs, but although the shooter was not "mentally ill", he did have a documented history with the authorities of domestic violence, including assaulting his own daughter. Surely this type of history, in addition to mental illness, could be placed in the same restrictive category for future firearm purchases.
2
Illinois, in addition to being bankrupt, is a blue State with liberal policies and with its largest city as the murder capital of the country...outside of very liberal DC. The liberals have cast the die - what comes next is the fruit of their rhetoric and beliefs. And that goes treble for their on-air enablers, witches and thug-hugging politicians. As the old TV show said, "you asked for it".
2
" But in that case no connection to the shooting was ever established." that was the correction???? to add that line? instead of just removing the whole paragraph? seems that to the NYT its all just a game of Rah-Rah for our side.
3
The NYT has failed again to draw attention away from the fact that Democrats with their heated rhetoric, and their lapdog MSM media are the ones with blood on their hands today. They are directly responsible - vivid graphics of Griffin with the severed head of Trump, Broadway play depicting Trump character being stabbed to death... despicable and inflaming profanity from Democrat leadership has caused this. S H A M E !!!
9
This tragedy should be used to promote more gun control to keep deadly weapons out of the hands of lunatics!
1
I am not American, and as a person who lives in a country with very strict gun laws and a low murder rate, the US approach to gun control is incomprehensible.
While I understand that for some people hunting is part of their lives, there is no reason why anyone should have free access to a semi-automatic rifle of the kind Hodgkinson is alleged to have used. A weapon of this kind has a strictly military function and should not be available to private citizens except possibly under exceptional circumstances and after a range of background checks.
This latest shooting will not make the slightest difference to US gun laws and people will continue to be killed and maimed because of the murderous stupidity of groups like the NRA.
While I understand that for some people hunting is part of their lives, there is no reason why anyone should have free access to a semi-automatic rifle of the kind Hodgkinson is alleged to have used. A weapon of this kind has a strictly military function and should not be available to private citizens except possibly under exceptional circumstances and after a range of background checks.
This latest shooting will not make the slightest difference to US gun laws and people will continue to be killed and maimed because of the murderous stupidity of groups like the NRA.
4
Now that the Democrats have made murder as much a part of their campaign of hate as lies, Fake News, fundraising, and kissing babies, their contempt for freedom, democracy, and America is laid bare. The Dems are trying to destroy America so they can impose a fascist dictatorship.
8
You are confused, sir. It is the GOP who has been assiduously cultivating this attitude for many years during the tenure of our 44th president. If existing laws had been strengthened this madman would never have had access to an automatic weapon.
Now we can mass shootings to the Democrats list of bad behavior, along with coup-plotting, lying, treason, theft, tax evasion, election-rigging, etc
4
I am truly alarmed by the angry, vicious, and violent reaction to this event by the vast majority of readers who took the time to respond to this editorial. This country is in trouble. Is this how our national discourse evolved? I believe the advent of social media has emboldened people to say horrible things because they can get away with it.
Shame on you all.
Shame on you all.
3
Steady diet of anti______________ and the belief sets in.
You then have self radicalization.
And for all the commentary about guns, the same type of terrorist's are doing just fine with trucks and knives.
I suppose we had all best hope they don't decide to take the time to self learn chemistry.
You then have self radicalization.
And for all the commentary about guns, the same type of terrorist's are doing just fine with trucks and knives.
I suppose we had all best hope they don't decide to take the time to self learn chemistry.
Oh, and I forgot: Megan Kelly's interview of the horrid Alex Jones set to air Sunday night.
DON'T WATCH - send the idiot Lack a message.
DON'T WATCH - send the idiot Lack a message.
1
Ordinarily Americans welcome the sight of the President of the United States speaking to us in support of tolerance, decency & unity following national trauma. We the people were unified in support of President Bill Clinton, President George W. Bush & President Barack Obama when they called us to help bind up our nation's wounds following violent attacks on our society & our citizens.
The problem is thinking Trump is now endowed w/ the same legitimacy & good intentions after his campaign of racism, hate, lies & division & continues as POTUS to constantly endorse demonization, racism, deceit, illegitimate tactics & constant assaults on the institutions of our democracy & the legitimacy of our government. You can't get to be president smearing Mexicans, Muslims, African Americans, immigrants, parents of our martyred soldiers, demonizing political opponents - then run your administration accusing the intelligence agencies & law enforcement of being "liars" & "Nazis," falsely attempting to criminalize your predecessor, proclaiming the independent press "the enemy of the people." This while refusing to divest yourself of business properties & using them to profit your family in office, agitating to suppress democratic political dissent, calling for physical violence against protestors, shoving a foreign leader at a summit of allies & choosing racists, conspiracy mongers & your relatives to run your administration.
Sorry buddy. You can't have it both ways.
The problem is thinking Trump is now endowed w/ the same legitimacy & good intentions after his campaign of racism, hate, lies & division & continues as POTUS to constantly endorse demonization, racism, deceit, illegitimate tactics & constant assaults on the institutions of our democracy & the legitimacy of our government. You can't get to be president smearing Mexicans, Muslims, African Americans, immigrants, parents of our martyred soldiers, demonizing political opponents - then run your administration accusing the intelligence agencies & law enforcement of being "liars" & "Nazis," falsely attempting to criminalize your predecessor, proclaiming the independent press "the enemy of the people." This while refusing to divest yourself of business properties & using them to profit your family in office, agitating to suppress democratic political dissent, calling for physical violence against protestors, shoving a foreign leader at a summit of allies & choosing racists, conspiracy mongers & your relatives to run your administration.
Sorry buddy. You can't have it both ways.
4
I anxiously await the in-depth article: "When the Deplorables are Liberals"
3
Why is anyone surprised? Did Congress think itself immune from the toxic atmosphere it has generated? Did they think they could not merely refuse to enact gun control but actually enact legislation allowing mental deficients to buy guns -- and still be safe? Did they not imagine that some random guy from Illinois would get fed up, pack up his truck, and bring his Uzi to Washington? All of this was easily foreseeable, and only an arrogant, right-wing Congress, blinded to reality and beholden to the NRA, would have failed to expect it.
My cousin text me, yesterday - The House was about to vote on Legalizing Silencers on guns - House Republicans were voting to Legalize - but - then the shooting occurred at the baseball field - and - the Bill to Legalize Silencers was tabled for another day.
What are the Republicans thinking and doing - this is madness!
My prayers and thoughts go out to all Congressmen hurt by, yesterday's shooting.
Trump & the Republicans need to back way off - and - begin to include ALL Americans.
What are the Republicans thinking and doing - this is madness!
My prayers and thoughts go out to all Congressmen hurt by, yesterday's shooting.
Trump & the Republicans need to back way off - and - begin to include ALL Americans.
2
Look, the issue in DC is that our elected employees want to make the hate speech a partisan issue. Only the opposition engages in it, only the opposition incites it...but thats simply 100% not true. Both parties either directly use hate speech, or look the other way when their advocates use it, and incite violence.
But one problem the Repubs have, its their policies that are seen as hateful. Asis theirboss right now. A foul mouthed, coward (is that hateful?) who hides behind his tweets, and acts like a vindictive child, who is clearly violating various laws and basic traditions and his party is sitting idly by because of their political greed.
Right now the Repubs have a lot to answer to,and need to show they actually respect the rule of law,and the Constitution, and the needs of the public.
But one problem the Repubs have, its their policies that are seen as hateful. Asis theirboss right now. A foul mouthed, coward (is that hateful?) who hides behind his tweets, and acts like a vindictive child, who is clearly violating various laws and basic traditions and his party is sitting idly by because of their political greed.
Right now the Repubs have a lot to answer to,and need to show they actually respect the rule of law,and the Constitution, and the needs of the public.
1
Even this tragedy has the stink of money-grubbing legislators and their lobbyists, who seek every opportunity to pigeon-hole their prey for personal gain over the common good of we constituents.
2
Ok it’s time to cool the political rhetoric. Instead of calling Trump a demagogue, lets just say we disagree with his position,& point out why, civil but boring, because he is demagogue & a danger to the stability of this nation & the world.
If there are people who take this to shoot a Republican it’s only because they have ready access to guns, & they are insane.
If there are people who take this to shoot a Republican it’s only because they have ready access to guns, & they are insane.
2
People in glass houses don't throw stones. The demagogue, bigoted, race baiting Trump on many occasions on the campaign trail and in office made all type of hate related speech, dog whistles to the base and rabble roused the crowd.
Now that he and his party are the target, he suddenly wakes up and cries wolf.
Now that he and his party are the target, he suddenly wakes up and cries wolf.
2
The demagogue, bigoted, race baiting Trump on many occasions on the campaign trail and in office made all type of hate related speech, dog whistles to the base and rabble roused the crowd.
==================
And yet Republicans aren't shooting at Democrats and no Republicans disrupted Hillary rallies, as Democrats often did at Trump rallies.
Glass houses indeed
==================
And yet Republicans aren't shooting at Democrats and no Republicans disrupted Hillary rallies, as Democrats often did at Trump rallies.
Glass houses indeed
4
I guess I'm in the camp that believes free and impassioned political speech should never be blamed, modified, regulated, labeled, or censored just because it might trigger the detonator in some psycho.
1
This is not the first time this sort of shooting has happened to a congressman.
What surprised me was that people in the neighborhood notices this odd fellow who did not belong there and yet made no effort to contact the police about him.
I would think that people would not want some sort of bum livving in a van in their neighborhood.
I feel sorry for Steve Scalise and realize he has a long recovery ahead of him. This could have been prevented if only the residents complained to the police about this homeless vagtant in their neighbodhood.
See Somrthing, Say Somthing. We all must be alert these days and not be shy about contacting the police about people who don't belong in an area.
What surprised me was that people in the neighborhood notices this odd fellow who did not belong there and yet made no effort to contact the police about him.
I would think that people would not want some sort of bum livving in a van in their neighborhood.
I feel sorry for Steve Scalise and realize he has a long recovery ahead of him. This could have been prevented if only the residents complained to the police about this homeless vagtant in their neighbodhood.
See Somrthing, Say Somthing. We all must be alert these days and not be shy about contacting the police about people who don't belong in an area.
1
There WERE weapons and persons with guns on their hips on that field! TRAINED, armed officers who did exactly what there training required.
Which one of the Congressmen said, "Something has got to be done"? This is the America the rest of us live in.
Which one of the Congressmen said, "Something has got to be done"? This is the America the rest of us live in.
1
If you hate Trump and cronies and speak up about it, is that hate speech? And you quote Trump as saying that all these good people are in Washington because they love their country. Surely you jest! Now is this the time for me to bemoan violence and say that god ole Democrats must speak softly and carry a small limp stick in their battle with elements bent on destroying our country for their own personal gain? Prince of the Heap: Trump!
Is it any coincidence that the publication of this editorial with it's false claim of a link between the "Right" and the shooting Rep. Giffords comes on the heels of the elimination of the Ombudsman's role? You've spent so much time grieving the election of Mr. Trump you've now decided to get down in the land of make believe with him? Mr. Trump is a blow hard; the NY Times (I thought) tried to hold itself to a higher standard. Trump fired Mr. Comey. You've fired the Ombudsman. There's an eerie parallel here.
4
Thucydides in The History of the Peloponnesian War equated the decrease in the carrying of personal weapons as a corollary to the increase in civilized behavior. The GOP encourages the former and is surprised at the latter. Ergo?
60
It has only been 3000 years, perhaps they haven't figured it out yet.
Excellent point to definitely aim for but not before we take "you know who" and have him "fileted" in the middle of Fifth Avenue to finally put our hands on the income tax papers!
Trump says "everyone who serves in our nation’s capital is here because, above all, they love our country". Really? If they loved the country wouldn't we join the rest of the civilized world and ban guns? Or do these esteemed gentlemen "serve their country" for themselves and the corporations from whose troughs they slobber at?
4
I'd point out that we know a few things about these lunatics.
1. They're always guys.
2. Most typically, they're white men.
3. They have a grudge of some sort; it's anger about their work, or it's a political thing. If it's focused at all, it's focused on somebody particular, or a particular issue.
4. If their grudge is specifically political, it's most typically right-wing or racist. This guy's unusual, in that he's identified Left. However, I'd point out that he's identified with a particular part of the Left sometimes known as "Berniacs," and seems to have hated Hillary Clinton pretty much as much as he hated Trump.
5. Most typically, these guys are a) marginally employed if they're employed at all, b) are largely solitary, c) have had some kind of oddish run-in with the law or the mental health system.
The prob is, a lot of Americans fit this rough profile, and have guns.
1. They're always guys.
2. Most typically, they're white men.
3. They have a grudge of some sort; it's anger about their work, or it's a political thing. If it's focused at all, it's focused on somebody particular, or a particular issue.
4. If their grudge is specifically political, it's most typically right-wing or racist. This guy's unusual, in that he's identified Left. However, I'd point out that he's identified with a particular part of the Left sometimes known as "Berniacs," and seems to have hated Hillary Clinton pretty much as much as he hated Trump.
5. Most typically, these guys are a) marginally employed if they're employed at all, b) are largely solitary, c) have had some kind of oddish run-in with the law or the mental health system.
The prob is, a lot of Americans fit this rough profile, and have guns.
5
Most typically, they're white men
=================
Not really true. White mass shooters are 55% of total while they make up 65% of population.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/476456/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-s...
=================
Not really true. White mass shooters are 55% of total while they make up 65% of population.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/476456/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-s...
Since Bobby Kennedy died, over three million other Americans have been killed by fellow Americans with guns.
Most of the words spoken about this national murder festival are meaningless sanctimonious gibberish.
The U.S. is a nation quivering in fear at the NRA, demanding ever stronger more lethal weapons.
One Wayne Lapierre is worth more than 200,000 slaughtered children.
The U.S. is morally repulsive, extreme wealth contrasted to the developed world's worst child poverty. And the entire political/executive/plutocratic class couldn't care less for their only love is greed.
Most of the words spoken about this national murder festival are meaningless sanctimonious gibberish.
The U.S. is a nation quivering in fear at the NRA, demanding ever stronger more lethal weapons.
One Wayne Lapierre is worth more than 200,000 slaughtered children.
The U.S. is morally repulsive, extreme wealth contrasted to the developed world's worst child poverty. And the entire political/executive/plutocratic class couldn't care less for their only love is greed.
4
A left wing deranged Trump hater shoots Republican congressmen and their aides. Yet, the left still finds a way to blame the GOP.
5
Of course violence is a gross affront to a society that calls itself civilized, but may I ask a question aside from the violent attack on the congressmen playing baseball on a weekday during normal working hours? Aren't they headed for a long 4th of July holiday break? Aren't they headed for a long Summer Recess? Why are their constituents paying them to play baseball when we hear about their huge workload? I worked for the federal government for 26 years and I was never asked by my bosses to take off during working hours and go to the ball field. Am I being too cynical? I can't help wondering.
3
Black Lives Matter riots, police officers ambushed and killed, anti-fa "protesters" assaulting people at universities to shut down seminars by conservative professors, a Bernie Sanders supporter stabs two men on a train in Portland, Washington DC gets destroyed on Trump's inauguration, Kathy Griffin holds up Trump's decapitated head, Trump is killed over and over in a Caesar play, and the constant shrill alarm of the American media blaming Republicans for "murdering the planet" by pulling out of the climate deal, and "murdering 20 million Americans" for trying to fix Obama's failing healthcare bill--gee, I wonder where another deranged Bernie Sanders supporter got the idea to terminate Republican Congress members?
This is why the left will keep losing elections. The truth cannot be buried.
This is why the left will keep losing elections. The truth cannot be buried.
6
The "link to political incitement" between Loughner, who had been obsessed with Giffords for years before the infamous cross hairs were published, is bunk and the NYT knows it. It's a false premise. And when a false premise is used to justify a position, whether it be an editorial position by a news outlet, a policy position by a politician or public official, or a disciplinary position by the parents of a teenager, the solidity of the position is weakened in the minds of those affected, not strengthened. There are plenty of facts to justify greater gun control, NYT. Stick to those and you'll convince more people. All the Loughner comparison is doing is providing evidence of the paper's liberal bias.
4
Americans are pathetic. If 20 children dying in their classrooms with their brave beloved teachers does not start a conversation nothing will.
It is shameful and disgusting and we are all to blame.
I think of the brave Australians who at a similar moment stood together and started a conversation that lasted 2-3 years and involved every side. They found change and a solution that worked for Australia.
Americans are cowards. Why can't we do the same? For America and Americans? Why are we so afraid?
It is shameful and disgusting and we are all to blame.
I think of the brave Australians who at a similar moment stood together and started a conversation that lasted 2-3 years and involved every side. They found change and a solution that worked for Australia.
Americans are cowards. Why can't we do the same? For America and Americans? Why are we so afraid?
2
This behavior was effectively sanctioned by our president, who boasted as candidate Trump that he could walk down the street and shoot someone with impunity.
How ridiculous and hypocritical to hear that our elected officials are "shocked" when this has become our American quotidian.
How ridiculous and hypocritical to hear that our elected officials are "shocked" when this has become our American quotidian.
4
The left is just giving us more and more cause to deliver copious amounts of justice to them in the future. Conservatives have had sit back and watch them kill our police, spread hatred and violence against us, liberals are only going to wake up a beast that they will not find quarter from.
3
“As Mankind becomes more liberal, they will be more apt to allow that all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community are equally entitled to the protections of civil government. I hope ever to see America among the foremost nations of justice and liberality.”
-- George Washington
-- George Washington
1
This is the new norm. Get used to it. Republicans called for looser gun regulations after they were shot at yesterday, not stronger. No matter how much we protest, this will not change. The NRA has too much power. It's over. We live in a strange OK Corral dream.
1
Liberal shoots conservatives. Liberal New York Times blames conservatives, demands that they disarm themselves and everyone else.
No way, New York Times. You are never going to disarm us.
No way, New York Times. You are never going to disarm us.
1
Am I missing something? Did not trump call for a "Revolution" in 2012 when he thought Barack had won election by the anti-democratic way of winning the electoral college while loosing the popular vote? As a candidate for the presidency did he not explicitly assert that the only way to stop Hillary might be for 2nd Amendment people to come to the fore? Did he not call Obama THE FOUNDER OF ISIS? Did he not imply that Ted Cruz's Father may have been complicit in the assasination of John F. Kennedy. JOHN FITZGERALD KENNEDY! CAMELOT!
Where is the evidence that any newly elected president has sown the seeds of discord and disunity as has trump. Which of his predecessors called their intelligence agencies Nazis? Which of them has accused the Federal Judicary of conspiring to put the American People at risk? Which of them have been so dismissive of the electoral processes' integrity?
My God, people, Abraham Lincoln held that free and fair elections were so critical to the on-going existence of our republic that he insisted that one be held during the Civil War. In holding so fast to the principle that we are a country of laws and not men Lincoln pointed the way out of our country's most brutal moment of incivility. Like he did at the western wall, trump should walk over to the Lincoln Memorial and place a note in a crack asking for a little Lincoln Grace.
Where is the evidence that any newly elected president has sown the seeds of discord and disunity as has trump. Which of his predecessors called their intelligence agencies Nazis? Which of them has accused the Federal Judicary of conspiring to put the American People at risk? Which of them have been so dismissive of the electoral processes' integrity?
My God, people, Abraham Lincoln held that free and fair elections were so critical to the on-going existence of our republic that he insisted that one be held during the Civil War. In holding so fast to the principle that we are a country of laws and not men Lincoln pointed the way out of our country's most brutal moment of incivility. Like he did at the western wall, trump should walk over to the Lincoln Memorial and place a note in a crack asking for a little Lincoln Grace.
1
The only thing uglier than yesterday's mass shooting or the Democrat hate speech that inspired it is the obscene Democrats posting here today justifying the shooting as a legitimate response to GOP policies. Have you no shame??
8
If we had little brass "Stolpersteine" (Stumbling-stones), as the individual memorials to Jewish German citizens deported and murdered are called, embedded in sidewalks in front of their former homes throughout German cities, but here in the US instead for victims of gun violence - then maybe we would be visually confronted with the enormous toll imposed on our society by the current interpretation of the Second Amendment.
1
I don't know where the notion that Mr. Hodgkinson was "deranged" comes from. The stuff he wrote and said sounds exactly the same as countless Bernie Bros. I've come across. As a Hillary supporter I've been on the receiving and of plenty of outright vitriol from these people. If he's crazy, so is half of the Democratic Party.
Bernie stirred these people up to a boiling point that he couldn't walk them back from. And all they're doing now is blaming everyone else.
Bernie stirred these people up to a boiling point that he couldn't walk them back from. And all they're doing now is blaming everyone else.
4
Doesn't Trump's proposed budget cut healthcare funding for people who are struggling with mental health issues as this gentleman surely was? And wasn't it the Republicans who recently undid a bill preventing people with previous mental health issues from purchasing guns? Oh, and wasn't it Trump on the campaign trail who encouraged violence and offered to defend those who physically attacked Clinton supporters? Perhaps the finger they are pointing at the Dems should be pointed at themselves.
2
Politicians and their supporters who created this despicably low and dangerous level of political discourse seem to be intellectually incapable of reflecting on their own responsibility for it. Likewise, gun advocates refuse to acknowledge their culpability in pushing the country into a de facto state of martial law and scream for more guns for everyone, even for those who should never have them.
"We may have our differences, but we do well in times like these to remember that everyone who serves in our nation’s capital is here because, above all, they love our country ."
You know I just don't buy that as a universal truth. Some may have started out that way, and some may think they are serving their country, however we know what power can do to us. Unless one is periodically reevaluating one's motives one can become someone else without being aware of the change.
I think what many citizens see is party before country, personal career before country, ego before country and the corrosive effects of money as influence in politics. The result is growing mistrust of our institutions and the swelling ranks of the disenfranchised. This is the threat to our democracy
You know I just don't buy that as a universal truth. Some may have started out that way, and some may think they are serving their country, however we know what power can do to us. Unless one is periodically reevaluating one's motives one can become someone else without being aware of the change.
I think what many citizens see is party before country, personal career before country, ego before country and the corrosive effects of money as influence in politics. The result is growing mistrust of our institutions and the swelling ranks of the disenfranchised. This is the threat to our democracy
1
The House of Representatives might say they are all united and friends and working together for the good of the country and people, but that is only partially true. Better to say they are united in working to get re-elected. It's not accurate to say their intentions are all good. Legislators who pass bills favoring the 1% of people and corporations are hurting our country and our people, and if they are not doing so intentionally, they are at the very least living lives unexamined in closing their eyes to the harm they do.
1
Jared Lee Loughner violence stems from his mental illness. He has been diagnosed with schizophrenia. He shot people because he's a schizophrenic not because he was angry about politics. If he had not been schizophrenic he would not have shot people. I find it odd that the author does not even mention his mentor illness.
4
As I learn more about the deranged man who, for what ever reason, brought a gun to a playground to shoot, to target we hear, members of the GOP. And that he, this time, a liberal, wasn't lost. The false equivalency rises again. Yes hate, powerlessness all play a role but it isn't really a liberal, conservative or wacko issue. It's a society where violence is honored, enjoyed, bought and sold. Where the trills of the little adrenaline rush drives us to bring in more, faster better. The crowds at Bernie's rally never chatted "lock-er-up." No Second Ammendment solutions...but the poison of talk radio poisons us all. I have watched Rachael, never never rises to the point of insanity extremely common on the right...and NBC will market with their new-found spokesdroid the hate and spit of the 'alt-right.' And the lack of real leadership, caring and problem-solving by the GOP does raise all thinking people's ire! But I will never grab a gun...see I read the teachings of Jesus, Buddha, and see peace, liberal love of human-kind. My voices in my head say, "take a break, consider, think."
Advocating increased access of lethal weapons to people who have no training and over whom there is no oversight means, quite simply, arming millions of people to shoot you & those you love.
5
Republicans have long worked at loosening the cork that held the genie of violence. Trump popped the cork right off. Now it seems it has boomeranged against them.
2
And what? The congressmen would have guns on their hips as they ran the bases and roamed the outfield. It's time to ban all assault weapons from public sale. That, alone, would substantially decrease the chance of a ball diamond becoming a killing field.
2
Baseball and gunplay......America's favorite pasttimes.
1
What a difference a year makes!
In June '16, Rand Paul, a target yesterday, tweeted:
"Why do we have a Second Amendment? It's not to shoot deer. It's to shoot at the government when it becomes tyrannical!"
Oops. I guess Sen. Paul's next tweet might be: "But...I didn't mean ME!!!!"
My point is Paul actively embraced the actions yesterday by James Hodgkinson. It is plainly evident that Hodgkinson viewed the GOP and especially the GOP under Trump as tyrannical. Which isn't hard to do as every plan they have hurts the poor, removes protections from corporate and government excess, and moves the tax burden from the wealthiest to the rest of us, all while Trump actively works against multiple guaranteed Constitutional rights. Tyrannical.
"But...I didn't mean ME!!!!!"
Paul meant, like all GOPers, Obama's use of XOs they didn't like & the way the ACA was passed.
It's easy to embrace violence, insurrection, Jefferson's "watering the Tree of Liberty" when it's all in theory, all philosophical, and never, EVER aimed at YOU. To misquote a bit of doggerel:
"Don't shoot me, don't shoot thee, shoot that Liberal behind that tree!"
Rand Paul never once assumed the guy behind the tree would be a Conservative, a Republican, or worse, Rand Paul!
Hodgkinson's dead, killed by 2 very brave & heroic Capitol Police officers, both of whom might well detest the policies of the people they saved & yet put their lives & bodies on the line for them. Both were wounded. THEY are the best of America!
In June '16, Rand Paul, a target yesterday, tweeted:
"Why do we have a Second Amendment? It's not to shoot deer. It's to shoot at the government when it becomes tyrannical!"
Oops. I guess Sen. Paul's next tweet might be: "But...I didn't mean ME!!!!"
My point is Paul actively embraced the actions yesterday by James Hodgkinson. It is plainly evident that Hodgkinson viewed the GOP and especially the GOP under Trump as tyrannical. Which isn't hard to do as every plan they have hurts the poor, removes protections from corporate and government excess, and moves the tax burden from the wealthiest to the rest of us, all while Trump actively works against multiple guaranteed Constitutional rights. Tyrannical.
"But...I didn't mean ME!!!!!"
Paul meant, like all GOPers, Obama's use of XOs they didn't like & the way the ACA was passed.
It's easy to embrace violence, insurrection, Jefferson's "watering the Tree of Liberty" when it's all in theory, all philosophical, and never, EVER aimed at YOU. To misquote a bit of doggerel:
"Don't shoot me, don't shoot thee, shoot that Liberal behind that tree!"
Rand Paul never once assumed the guy behind the tree would be a Conservative, a Republican, or worse, Rand Paul!
Hodgkinson's dead, killed by 2 very brave & heroic Capitol Police officers, both of whom might well detest the policies of the people they saved & yet put their lives & bodies on the line for them. Both were wounded. THEY are the best of America!
1
I cannot watch the news anymore whenever my 9 year old daughter with excellent hearing is in our house. This was not the case for my father when I was a young boy. I know that much has changed since then, the 24/7 news cycle, the omnipresent videos, the socially accepted norms of behavior, to name a few. And, since so much has changed, addressing this high profile epidemic of violence will require multiple solutions, each of which will no doubt inconvenience some, each of which will no doubt provoke some opposition. For my daughter's sake, for all our children's sake, I make this plea that all our political representatives and leaders "not make perfection the enemy of the good," not make the "perfection" of their positions on this matter so dear that no good can there be for our present or future. I wonder now, will there ever be a time when fathers and mothers can watch the news or take their children out and about without the worries that we now have?
Where was the outrage when people were gunned down at the PULSE nightclub? Or when children, teachers, and an administrator were slaughtered in Newtown? Who were the republicans who got choked up when Gabby Gifford and others including a nine year old girl were mercilessly mowed down like rabid dogs? The republicans have done nothing but fight any reasonable gun laws. They're too in love with the image of the old West with its aura and fantasy of independence, individualism, and rugged manhood. Repblicans spare me your crocodile tears.
1
Huh? There were outpourings of rage everywhere, in every paper, social media, marches, and so on.
1
Do you know any Republicans? Seriously, even one? Because all the Republicans I know think the events you cited were disgusting
4
The Pulse shooting was done by Omar Magen, a registered Democrat and Hillary supporter. He also pledged allegiance to ISIS. The shooting was done in gun-free zone. The Democrats who made Pulse a gun-free zone disarmed the victims but did nothing to disarm the shooter
2
It's a sad state of affairs. Meanwhile, the McConnell-led Senate continues to work on healthcare legislation behind closed doors without consulting colleagues across the aisle and without public hearings. If republicans are serious about changing the tenor of our politics, then their basic approach to legislating needs to change.
While I feel bad for Scalise, and those wounded, I am hoping they have a new appreciation for the good health care provided by the federal government. And since all of the victims will now have "pre-existing conditions" through no fault of their own, all their future health care costs will still be covered. Perhaps while the warm fuzzy feelings the politicians are extending to one another across the great partisan divide, those same feelings Seek the empathy needed to make health care affordable and available to all.
1
Get the X-rays of the bullet's trajectory after the bullet entered Congressman Scalise's hip. Include a Dr's explanation. Publish it! Fax a copy to every Member of Congress.
Then watch the Congress refuse to remove those bullets from the retail shelves. Those bullets, full metal jacketed do not exit the body after entrance. The bullet breaks apart and then like shrapnel, destroys a person's insides.
These offensive bullets that destroy bones and organs have nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment and are not entitled to the amendment's protection.
http://thegovernmentinexile.live
Then watch the Congress refuse to remove those bullets from the retail shelves. Those bullets, full metal jacketed do not exit the body after entrance. The bullet breaks apart and then like shrapnel, destroys a person's insides.
These offensive bullets that destroy bones and organs have nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment and are not entitled to the amendment's protection.
http://thegovernmentinexile.live
2
Listening to the argument that Mo Brooks and many others have made, I have to ask how a policeman could identify the good guys from the bad guys in a chaotic situation if they're all in civilian clothes and pointing guns at others?
I doubt that any law enforcement officer wants to be confronted with that split-second decision. It's very simple: More guns, more shootings, more tragedies.
I doubt that any law enforcement officer wants to be confronted with that split-second decision. It's very simple: More guns, more shootings, more tragedies.
1
Until we get money out of politics all of these arguments are moot. Our government had been hijacked by the .1%, who make most of the political donations, and hence get to write most of the legislation. This includes global bankers and hedge fund managers, global oil corporations, and global arms dealers.
Until we stop these people from buying most of our politicians (for pennies on the million dollars), there will be no gun regulation, no solution for climate change, no end to wars for private profit, no universal healthcare, less free education, and more privatization of the national wealth.
Sanders is correct that the oligarchy (personified by Trump and Kushner) doesn't care what you want.
There will be no reasonable compromises; only giant c give aways to the already mega rich.
And Sanders is correct that we can't stop this with violence. They have the guns.
We need peaceful resistance to these policies. We need a party on the left that actually believe in the left, that the future is not about corporations and competition, but about humans and cooperation. We need the left to put aside it's petty differences And unite to show that the this is not a right leaning country, as global corporate mass media pretends, but a forward looking country that takes care of each other and the planet.
And we need a conditional amendment:
Corporations are Not People and Money is Not Speech.
Until we stop these people from buying most of our politicians (for pennies on the million dollars), there will be no gun regulation, no solution for climate change, no end to wars for private profit, no universal healthcare, less free education, and more privatization of the national wealth.
Sanders is correct that the oligarchy (personified by Trump and Kushner) doesn't care what you want.
There will be no reasonable compromises; only giant c give aways to the already mega rich.
And Sanders is correct that we can't stop this with violence. They have the guns.
We need peaceful resistance to these policies. We need a party on the left that actually believe in the left, that the future is not about corporations and competition, but about humans and cooperation. We need the left to put aside it's petty differences And unite to show that the this is not a right leaning country, as global corporate mass media pretends, but a forward looking country that takes care of each other and the planet.
And we need a conditional amendment:
Corporations are Not People and Money is Not Speech.
The second amendment right to keep and bear arms, like the other rights guaranteed by the constitution, is not an unlimited right. The interpretation of the second amendment as individual, rather than collective (i.e. "well-regulated militia") has only been established for nine years (see District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 2008). For two centuries before this highly contested, and not totally convincing, ruling, the right to bear arms has been tempered by concerns for protecting public safety – prohibitions on explosives, machine guns, weapons in "sensitive places" such as schools, etc. The absurd notion that the second amendment means we have the right to buy as many weapons of whatever type we want, and to use them however and wherever we want is definitely a threat to public safety.
The passage of reasonable and uniform laws for limiting, registering, and licensing firearms should not be derailed by the spurious and market-driven fantasy of jackbooted government thugs coming to your home to take your guns away. Americans should be able to hunt, shoot, and protect their homes. However, can't we have the requirements for licensing and registration that we are happy to accept for our use and ownership of another potentially deadly device: the family car?
Gun enthusiasts talk about liberty. What about my liberty to take my child to a ball game, or to school, without wondering if it will turn into a battlefield?
The passage of reasonable and uniform laws for limiting, registering, and licensing firearms should not be derailed by the spurious and market-driven fantasy of jackbooted government thugs coming to your home to take your guns away. Americans should be able to hunt, shoot, and protect their homes. However, can't we have the requirements for licensing and registration that we are happy to accept for our use and ownership of another potentially deadly device: the family car?
Gun enthusiasts talk about liberty. What about my liberty to take my child to a ball game, or to school, without wondering if it will turn into a battlefield?
2
It's over. All thoughts of even reasonable gun control are, sadly, "blowin in the wind".
Violence is never justified but it is understandable. Rep. Collins (R) New York blamed Democrats for inciting violence through their harsh criticism of Republican legislative plans and the antics of President Donald Trump. Apparently he didn't read the "Unity" memo.
People respond to leadership no matter how obscene or grotesque it might be. Sarah Palin and Charles Grassley incited Tea Party maniacs by claiming the Affordable Care Act included "death panels". President "Knock the crap out of them" Trump urged violence against rally protesters as well as the "dishonest" media throughout his campaign. Congressman Joe "You lie" Wilson publically insulted President Obama during a State of the Union speech before Congress. Snarky Republicans continually refer to the Democratic Party as the "Democrat" Party. I have never heard equivalent incitement from Democrats.
People become unhinged when they feel powerless and threatened. Most Americans have finally realized that "Obamacare" was a thoughtfully crafted, effective way of addressing the many shortcomings of health care in America. But, the ACA was funded by a tax on those making over 250K annually. This tax incensed the billionaire "donor class" who leaned upon their Republican lackeys to repeal instead of repair the ACA. So today, Senate Republicans are secretly writing a "Frankenstein" health care bill and plan to pass it without public scrutiny. Does this invite a violent response?
People respond to leadership no matter how obscene or grotesque it might be. Sarah Palin and Charles Grassley incited Tea Party maniacs by claiming the Affordable Care Act included "death panels". President "Knock the crap out of them" Trump urged violence against rally protesters as well as the "dishonest" media throughout his campaign. Congressman Joe "You lie" Wilson publically insulted President Obama during a State of the Union speech before Congress. Snarky Republicans continually refer to the Democratic Party as the "Democrat" Party. I have never heard equivalent incitement from Democrats.
People become unhinged when they feel powerless and threatened. Most Americans have finally realized that "Obamacare" was a thoughtfully crafted, effective way of addressing the many shortcomings of health care in America. But, the ACA was funded by a tax on those making over 250K annually. This tax incensed the billionaire "donor class" who leaned upon their Republican lackeys to repeal instead of repair the ACA. So today, Senate Republicans are secretly writing a "Frankenstein" health care bill and plan to pass it without public scrutiny. Does this invite a violent response?
4
You got it, sir. The Cold War ended. Since then Rush, Fox & the rest teased and tricked some voters into resenting and fearing, never mentioning the hidden agenda that eventually would hurt them. That changed just months ago with the outpouring of support against ending ACA. (Surprised me!)
Don’t call these people “Deplorables”. Separate these people from their embrace of the 1% & its “elected” lobbyists. See if we can be a middle class America again.
Don’t call these people “Deplorables”. Separate these people from their embrace of the 1% & its “elected” lobbyists. See if we can be a middle class America again.
Take away your health care.
Remove and restrict options for women's health care.
Gerrymander districts so you win an election even though you lose the popular vote.
Eliminate programs designed to assist the poor.
Eliminate job training.
Guess what, you do all this stuff and people are going to get angry. And, in a society that relates guns to strength and protecting yourself, combined with hateful rhetoric against the poor and struggling, it shouldn't be a surprise that this happens.
Sadly, it wont be a surprise if it happens again. And again. And Again.............
Remove and restrict options for women's health care.
Gerrymander districts so you win an election even though you lose the popular vote.
Eliminate programs designed to assist the poor.
Eliminate job training.
Guess what, you do all this stuff and people are going to get angry. And, in a society that relates guns to strength and protecting yourself, combined with hateful rhetoric against the poor and struggling, it shouldn't be a surprise that this happens.
Sadly, it wont be a surprise if it happens again. And again. And Again.............
1
So who did all this stuff? Today's pot is much stronger than what we did in the 60s, so be careful.
2
Nothing will change because the Republican Party has sold their collective soul to the NRA. How useful would it have been if a recent suggestion to allow silencers on guns had become law? Yeah. Even their "protectors" wouldn't have been able to help Scalese or anyone else because they couldn't have figured out where the shots were coming from.
1
I note that the NYT corrected itself: Unlike in this violent attack, where the shooter was obviously politically motivated by hatred, driven by the media -
Gifford's attack was not actually connected to Sarah Palin at all. It's a subtle difference, between did happen and didn't happen.
The reason for mentioning Gifford and Palin at all is to distract from the simple fact that the mainstream media is creating a true "climate of hatred" where these kinds of things seem reasonable to some people.
Gifford's attack was not actually connected to Sarah Palin at all. It's a subtle difference, between did happen and didn't happen.
The reason for mentioning Gifford and Palin at all is to distract from the simple fact that the mainstream media is creating a true "climate of hatred" where these kinds of things seem reasonable to some people.
11
Sadly this is not really about politics, really. It's about angry losers who become "deranged" and our American access to guns that can kill a lot of people quickly.
It doesn't matter what "ism" these losers gravitate to -- could be a religious extremism, is often tribal/ethnic ... any sort of us-versus-them that allows an angry "I'm not going to take it any more" to do something awful as revenge while claiming to be a martyr for a cause.
After the Gabby Giffords shooting many on the left were quick to criticize Sarah Palin's ads showing Dems (including Giffords) with crosshairs on them ... but Loughner was no real political assassin, yet he had a long fixation and hatred of Giffords. Deranged losers pick somebody and the first requirement is that the person be "them" and "a winner." In Loughner's case there probably was misogyny at work too ... and Giffords was accessible. It's not clear that he ever saw Palin's ads.
Hodgkinson was an angry loser and Trump hater. but he went after Scalise and the GOP baseball team because why? Because they were there. He couldn't get to Trump.
What the most people are missing is the obvious: it's not left or right here: its winners and losers. Bernie lost big -- losing to HRC and then HRC lost to Trump, and the comment threads here are full of angry Bernie people still ... I wonder when one of them will go shoot up the DNC.
Right now Trump's people feel like winners, but watch out if things go worse for Trump.
It doesn't matter what "ism" these losers gravitate to -- could be a religious extremism, is often tribal/ethnic ... any sort of us-versus-them that allows an angry "I'm not going to take it any more" to do something awful as revenge while claiming to be a martyr for a cause.
After the Gabby Giffords shooting many on the left were quick to criticize Sarah Palin's ads showing Dems (including Giffords) with crosshairs on them ... but Loughner was no real political assassin, yet he had a long fixation and hatred of Giffords. Deranged losers pick somebody and the first requirement is that the person be "them" and "a winner." In Loughner's case there probably was misogyny at work too ... and Giffords was accessible. It's not clear that he ever saw Palin's ads.
Hodgkinson was an angry loser and Trump hater. but he went after Scalise and the GOP baseball team because why? Because they were there. He couldn't get to Trump.
What the most people are missing is the obvious: it's not left or right here: its winners and losers. Bernie lost big -- losing to HRC and then HRC lost to Trump, and the comment threads here are full of angry Bernie people still ... I wonder when one of them will go shoot up the DNC.
Right now Trump's people feel like winners, but watch out if things go worse for Trump.
20
Right on several levels but wrong on a major one. Trump people had 8 years of Obama. Did any of them try and murder Democrats? No, they voted in 2016 and the Democrats cannot come to grips with it. Leftists seek solutions through violence, conservatives do not, not matter how hard people try and convince themselves that they would.
There is no evidence for it, it's a left wing fantasy.
There is no evidence for it, it's a left wing fantasy.
2
There is no way I would characterize this man as a 'deranged loser.' I happen to think what he did is entirely rational, given the extent to which a previously functioning person can be pushed to temporary insanity by the outrages of a social system they can't abide and can't control. What amazes me is that this doesn't happen more often, given how impossible it can be to find a way to navigate the insanity of the world around us. I suspect you'll find that he was a perfectly 'normal' person at one point who became increasingly distraught and did what you would do if you had a gun and no other outlet for your rage. And he sure did have the permission of Congress to carry a gun while outraged.
"After the Gabby Giffords shooting many on the left were quick to criticize Sarah Palin's ads showing Dems (including Giffords) with crosshairs on them "
That is a bare-faced lie. There were no such ads.
That is a bare-faced lie. There were no such ads.
Just under 100 Americans are shot and killed everyday. Tell me why I am supposed to care more when a wealthy, powerful, old white man is shot (and survives) rather than a struggling, powerless, young black man.
Every shooting is a tragedy. This shooting is no different. My heart breaks for the congressman, but it breaks no more than it does for any other shooting victim.
Of course, the mainstream media is practically salivating at the opportunity to portray progressives as nutjobs. They never let a shooting go without taking the opportunity to make a few political swipes, do they?
Every shooting is a tragedy. This shooting is no different. My heart breaks for the congressman, but it breaks no more than it does for any other shooting victim.
Of course, the mainstream media is practically salivating at the opportunity to portray progressives as nutjobs. They never let a shooting go without taking the opportunity to make a few political swipes, do they?
2
As a country, we have gone down the wrong road. It was the one most traveled by lost civilizations. The one where the life of another is least valued. The one where we take away health care from those that can not afford it, as an example. Instead, we have chosen to be armed and ready with no place safe to go. The Huns could not have made a better prescription for extinction, and all of this as a result of sheer greed on the part of a few. I am neither saddened or sickened by the attempted murder at the ball park. I am disgusted. It might be wise to listen to the warning sound provided by the buoy in advance of a storm. In civilization, it can be the mad man, who sees what is coming long before others do. If there is anything relevant to observe following this most recent shooting is that there is no hope of a solution. It's all about destiny now, a Greek tragedy of sorts, where everyone knows their parts and acts them out.
1
There’s no way to guarantee more snowflakes won’t get flaky, not with an administration as dim-witted as this one in power. Take the guns out of their hands. Say it loud and clear. Over and over, until this administration listens: Take the guns out of their hands!
I hope the victims are returned quickly to health. Ultimately, though, this tragedy points yet again to something far deeper in its political and cultural climate: the Constitution. We have a dccument that still includes an Amendment that has no bearing on modern American life and should have scrapped long ago. Thomas Jefferson himself clearly recognized the potential problem of a Constitution that was revered beyond its utility. In fact, he passionately argued that the whole thing should be rewritten anew -- not just modified -- by each generation, which he knew would face unforeseen problems (i.e. gun violence in our United States). We are still saddled with other useless, even harmful, anachronistic mechanisms such as the Electoral College. I'll never live to see it, and perhaps my young son won't either, but at some point I hope the American people become wise enough to start a new experiment, with a Constitution that is a work in progress, nimble and bold enough to change with the times.
Representative Brooks, yeah, same thing happened to us in 'Nam. We all had weapons like you want. But if we had all started shooting blindly, we’d have shot our own when returning fire. Sir, I just have to believe that you view gun use like I view watching a Hollywood Shoot ‘Em Up.
1
US voters have enough experience to know that our president lies when he says, “We may have our differences, but we do well in times like these to remember that everyone who serves in our nation’s capital is here because, above all, they love our country."
I am sure that Trump has spent more time around Republican politicians than I have. We know that he knows that they do NOT serve "in our nation's capital... because, above all, they love our country." They are in DC for two reasons; power and money. They do NOT agree that "American (sic) children deserve to grow up in a nation of safety and peace."
US gun manufacturers and gun owners are clearly out of control. (Can I hear an "amen"?) It is easy to see what motivates both groups. By now it is obvious that they are NOT making gun control decisions because they "love our country."
I'm ready to join a NGCA (National Gun Control Association) that represents human interests, not gun merchants and Republican hacks.
Make Gun Culture a Sub Culture Again.
I am sure that Trump has spent more time around Republican politicians than I have. We know that he knows that they do NOT serve "in our nation's capital... because, above all, they love our country." They are in DC for two reasons; power and money. They do NOT agree that "American (sic) children deserve to grow up in a nation of safety and peace."
US gun manufacturers and gun owners are clearly out of control. (Can I hear an "amen"?) It is easy to see what motivates both groups. By now it is obvious that they are NOT making gun control decisions because they "love our country."
I'm ready to join a NGCA (National Gun Control Association) that represents human interests, not gun merchants and Republican hacks.
Make Gun Culture a Sub Culture Again.
"[T]here’s no sign of incitement as direct as in the Giffords attack . . .". What? This op-ed is deranged. Sitting here on the western shore of Lake Michigan, what is more frightening than yesterday's shooting is that NYT continues to do its Pravda best to warp the views of millions. NYT, every single news day, does everything it can to foster hatred of Trump and Republicans. NYT has shown that its "aim" is to spew hatred at Republicans. NYT's pace-setting of the left's agenda fostered the culture of hate that led to this. NYT: Black and White and Blood all over.
10
There have been over 150 mass shootings in this country this year. And yes, this latest tragedy is horrible, but little attention was paid to the fatalities in the UPS shooting in San Francisco on the same day. If you want to point a finger as to the catalyst in the acceleration of the hateful rhetoric, then look no further than Trump.
But the bigger issue is the tidal wave of killing machines flooding our streets--in particular, assault rifles and large ammunition clips, You would think after this latest event, that Republicans would finally call for some serious gun legislation. But no, you are hearing the opposite.
But the bigger issue is the tidal wave of killing machines flooding our streets--in particular, assault rifles and large ammunition clips, You would think after this latest event, that Republicans would finally call for some serious gun legislation. But no, you are hearing the opposite.
But the bigger issue is the tidal wave of killing machines flooding our streets--in particular, assault rifles and large ammunition clips
=================
They aren't "clips" they are magazines.
According to the FBI, only 3% of gun murders are accomplished using rifles of all kinds. AR style semi-automatics are a subset of that.
Handguns are what people are murdered with
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/offense...
Studies of the 1994-2004 assault weapons ban showed it had no discernable effect on gun crime.
=================
They aren't "clips" they are magazines.
According to the FBI, only 3% of gun murders are accomplished using rifles of all kinds. AR style semi-automatics are a subset of that.
Handguns are what people are murdered with
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/offense...
Studies of the 1994-2004 assault weapons ban showed it had no discernable effect on gun crime.
Embarrassing. Just embarrassing. Can the Editorial board be fired?
11
Mr. Brooks bemoans the fact that he was unarmed during the horrifying assault? This column points out Virginia's lax guns laws, so what is stopping Mr. Brooks from packing a piece as he runs around in the outfield or whatever position he plays?
But before you get to any discussion of lax gun laws, you should think about hate speech, which the Republicans have suddenly discovered.
He is a Communist!
He is a Socialist!
He is a Muslim!
He is a Kenyan!
Lock her up! Lock her up!
Lock Crooked Hillary up!
Sound familiar? Just part of the message of tolerance, love and peace spread by the GOP since 2008.
But before you get to any discussion of lax gun laws, you should think about hate speech, which the Republicans have suddenly discovered.
He is a Communist!
He is a Socialist!
He is a Muslim!
He is a Kenyan!
Lock her up! Lock her up!
Lock Crooked Hillary up!
Sound familiar? Just part of the message of tolerance, love and peace spread by the GOP since 2008.
The NYTimes bias and agenda are so transparent as to be laughable....AGAIN.
Moral equivalence is not what this is about, it's just another LEFT WING loon incited by fake news as presented by LEFT WING outlets such as the Times..PERIOD
Moral equivalence is not what this is about, it's just another LEFT WING loon incited by fake news as presented by LEFT WING outlets such as the Times..PERIOD
11
No one should be shot. Nor should anyone vote Republican at any level of governance, if getting such violence under control is desired in America. Republicans are the "hate your government -- drown it in a bathtub, if you can -- party." They bring this on all of us and say that more guns is the solution. Tim McVeigh is the awful poster boy for modern Republicanism. "Blow government up," Steve Bannon says from the White House. Tim McVeigh did exactly that.
1
I suppose you have a point, given that Republican wins have caused Democrats to become fully unhinged and violent.
3
Vitriolic stories like this are the real reason why it occurred. Dear NYT PLEASE suicide faster so you don't create any more violent Leftists, thanks.
7
The NYT continues to propagate the lie that the Gifford's attack was somehow related to the right. This continued fake news is why the NYT has devolved into meaninglessness. There is no integrity left at the NYT. Nothing you read in the NYT can be trusted but you can trust that any news indicting progressives and Democrats either will not be reported or hidden deep inside the ever thinning paper.
12
It is despicable lie that the liars at the Fake News NY Times smear Sarah Palin with the allegation -proven false- that she inspired the Giffords shooting. As even CNN pointed out, Absolutely vile. The Times is clearly trying to incite one of its nutcase readers to kill Palin.
10
The truly sad thing is that no lessons shall be learned from this and people will just go on being nasty, condescending, rude and arrogant.
This editorial borders on malicious defamation. Jared Loughner lived, so we know absolutely that he was not 'incited' by anything. To drag up the old lie about Palin (not a fan) 6 years after the lie was disproved, is no way to get away from the #fakenews label
11
Ignorance about gun control; decades of volatile conservative talk
radio and Fox lies; a wide swath of American voters duped by a
very dishonest president who incites violence with his cockeyed
conning.
And Times says Trump 'said just the right thing'? The only thing
Donald Trump should say, in his resignation message, is "I'm
sorry I have so grossly fueled this dangerous environment".
By contrast, Bernie Sanders does not deserve to be put in
the same category as Trump trampling over everything that
is sensible.
radio and Fox lies; a wide swath of American voters duped by a
very dishonest president who incites violence with his cockeyed
conning.
And Times says Trump 'said just the right thing'? The only thing
Donald Trump should say, in his resignation message, is "I'm
sorry I have so grossly fueled this dangerous environment".
By contrast, Bernie Sanders does not deserve to be put in
the same category as Trump trampling over everything that
is sensible.
1
Yes, it must be decades of conservative talk that made Hodgkinson chant Bernie's slogans (99%! Tax the rich! No tax cuts! Single payer!) verbatim
yet, all of the violence is coming from the left...
and your argument seems to be that these 'volatile' elements are to blame. If that were the case, wouldn't the source of violence be on the right? Wouldn't we have seen even a fraction of the hatred and violence that the left has shown when Mr. Obama won? And please spare us the attempt to make any comparison between how the left has reacted to the election loss versus the right - not even close.
and your argument seems to be that these 'volatile' elements are to blame. If that were the case, wouldn't the source of violence be on the right? Wouldn't we have seen even a fraction of the hatred and violence that the left has shown when Mr. Obama won? And please spare us the attempt to make any comparison between how the left has reacted to the election loss versus the right - not even close.
1
Mr. Hodgkinson, I would tell you I agree with the feelings of hopelessness that contributed to your actions. I do not agree with violence, although touching someone's body seems the only way to get Republicans to listen.
No doubt the entire party will feel victimized, although this only happened to a direct few. Instead of writing off Mr. Hodgkinson, listen to why he did it. He was cathartic for some.
No doubt the entire party will feel victimized, although this only happened to a direct few. Instead of writing off Mr. Hodgkinson, listen to why he did it. He was cathartic for some.
Sadly, it was just another day in America.
Except that this time, the targets weren't drug dealers or gang-members in notoriously crime-infested areas.
To say America has a problem with gun-violence is an understatement. And yet any effort to introduce more stringent gun control laws is always met with howls of resistance from gun enthusiasts, and stiff opposition from powerful gun lobbys like the NRA.
That said, all those who are now taking this tragic incident to further politicize their cause by pointing blame, are doing nothing to help solve the real problem.
And until that is addressed, we can be realitively sure that something like this will happen again.
We are all targets now.
Except that this time, the targets weren't drug dealers or gang-members in notoriously crime-infested areas.
To say America has a problem with gun-violence is an understatement. And yet any effort to introduce more stringent gun control laws is always met with howls of resistance from gun enthusiasts, and stiff opposition from powerful gun lobbys like the NRA.
That said, all those who are now taking this tragic incident to further politicize their cause by pointing blame, are doing nothing to help solve the real problem.
And until that is addressed, we can be realitively sure that something like this will happen again.
We are all targets now.
Was it just "another day" in gun violent America? Or was it, rather, a day when someone went on a multiple attempted assassination rampage against the elected Republican Congressmen. Of many states, knowing, too, that he was going to be killed at some point himself for doing so?
Words and actions have consequences. The rhetoric during the campaign was toxic and poison. Trump denigrated ALL his rivals; even some of their wives and all who disagreed with him. His ineundos at his campaign rallies were tacit calls for violence. Then he was elected president and his inaugural was nothing but another campaign speech. No call for unity just incoherent blather. For six months now, he is still on the offense against his opposition with threats and lies and on the defense of some of his actions, at the same time.
He is a cancer on our society. Any progress we have made in containing racial relations, civility with those that disagree, comity with each others, political parties working together, caring for each others has suffered. You reap what you sow and the harvest is ready.
He is a cancer on our society. Any progress we have made in containing racial relations, civility with those that disagree, comity with each others, political parties working together, caring for each others has suffered. You reap what you sow and the harvest is ready.
1
I've seen this POV shared quite often these past several months. It's downright Orwellian in that you can willfully ignore that the largest purveyors of anger, jealousy and general political tantrum are the Democrats. The largest amount of actual violence is coming from the left....yet, you somehow remain convinced that it's Trump's fault. This is truly bizarre. No offense, I just can't understand your position. Are you suggesting that the shooter and other violent leftists are beyond self-control and at the whim of whatever emotional turmoil that Trump's words cause them?
1
Mental health issues dog many of our veterans of foreign wars, mental health issues can accompany a breadwinner's firing, or torment children growing up in an abusive home...to name just a few of the many reasons resulting in the crazed call to violence. And, what better way to inflict random pain and suffering on another than a shootout in a public place where you don't have to be a marksman to hit a target? It happens in the movies and it happens in America where any nut job can purchase a gun.
I am just waiting for the alt-xxx to claim that the attack on Republican ballplayers yesterday was a fake event to take AK 47s away from Americans.
But really, will this event finally motivate our legislators to do the right thing and divorce themselves from the NRA and assault rifles??
But really, will this event finally motivate our legislators to do the right thing and divorce themselves from the NRA and assault rifles??
Do you not see that your idea of government doesn't work. That a mentality of phony patriotism, self serving godliness combined with cash leads to a society that rejects any Christian attitude to life. Yet the most vociferous ignorants profess that Christians are the moral centre.
The myth is slowly being stripped away. The hundreds of senseless murders a year combined with th senseless rhetoric from Republicans will lead you to ....
Stay safe
The myth is slowly being stripped away. The hundreds of senseless murders a year combined with th senseless rhetoric from Republicans will lead you to ....
Stay safe
progressive Liberal Marxist Democratism is the new communism and Americans are disgusted with it.
“He was hunting us,” said Representative Mike Bishop, Republican of Michigan,
It must be a awful feeling to be out in the open, defenseless and vulnerable, being hunted by a person you know has no regard for you or your well being. Well Mike, now you know how the average middle class American feels regarding the GOP ad gender.
It must be a awful feeling to be out in the open, defenseless and vulnerable, being hunted by a person you know has no regard for you or your well being. Well Mike, now you know how the average middle class American feels regarding the GOP ad gender.
2
Don't try to weasel your way out of responsibility for the climate of boiling hatred on the Left for Trump with this "bipartisan" hate nonsense.
The nonstop invective from this newspaper, along with the Washington Post, CNN and other Leftist outlets, led directly to this shooting. You can't call somebody a traitor, a liar, a sexist, misogynist, a racist, a homophobe, a despicable human being, etc., for months on end without real-world consequences. You can't say the world is literally ending (Nuclear Holocaust! Environmental Apocalypse! World War III!) without driving a certain number of Leftists over the edge.
Go read the shooter's Facebook page before it disappears: his rhetoric was no more extreme than reader comments appearing in this very paper. You've managed to convince many other Leftists, perhaps thousands, that Trump is Satan and that all means are justified when it comes to stopping him.
This is exactly what you wanted, Grey Lady. Pat yourself on the back for the discord you've sown. Own it. The credit is solely yours.
The nonstop invective from this newspaper, along with the Washington Post, CNN and other Leftist outlets, led directly to this shooting. You can't call somebody a traitor, a liar, a sexist, misogynist, a racist, a homophobe, a despicable human being, etc., for months on end without real-world consequences. You can't say the world is literally ending (Nuclear Holocaust! Environmental Apocalypse! World War III!) without driving a certain number of Leftists over the edge.
Go read the shooter's Facebook page before it disappears: his rhetoric was no more extreme than reader comments appearing in this very paper. You've managed to convince many other Leftists, perhaps thousands, that Trump is Satan and that all means are justified when it comes to stopping him.
This is exactly what you wanted, Grey Lady. Pat yourself on the back for the discord you've sown. Own it. The credit is solely yours.
8
His Facebook page has already been taken down. I wonder why.
2
It's interesting to note that the same Congressmen who will use this opportunity to bemoan the fact that they were not armed at the baseball field, and if they were, could gave defended themselves, make very sure there is one place in Washington where guns are verboten - the Capitol building.
Betch you can't take a gun onto the gallery or floor of the House or Senate. Betcha there are a million checks and pat downs and metal detectors before you get anywhere near. Same for the Supreme Court. And of course the White House and above all, the Oval Office.
Wouldn't we all feel much safer in a crowd with Trump speaking knowing he was packing and could shoot into the crowd if he thought someone shot at him?
Just as Congressmen and Justices and Presidents and the civil servants who work in buildings all over the country do, we would all be better off making sure there were as few guns around us as possible, making them as hard to get as possible, incapable of taking out dozens or hundreds at a time, and relying on the experts to use them when needed.
Betch you can't take a gun onto the gallery or floor of the House or Senate. Betcha there are a million checks and pat downs and metal detectors before you get anywhere near. Same for the Supreme Court. And of course the White House and above all, the Oval Office.
Wouldn't we all feel much safer in a crowd with Trump speaking knowing he was packing and could shoot into the crowd if he thought someone shot at him?
Just as Congressmen and Justices and Presidents and the civil servants who work in buildings all over the country do, we would all be better off making sure there were as few guns around us as possible, making them as hard to get as possible, incapable of taking out dozens or hundreds at a time, and relying on the experts to use them when needed.
It'll be interesting to see how Congress moves forward on this. I'm not hopeful. Regarding gun laws, after Gabby Giffords shooting, they basically got together & sang "God Bless America". She was one of them too! We're not saying get rid of guns, but the process to own should be more like the motor vehicle process - testing, licensing, registering, inspections & insuring.
In regards to the rhetoric, again, I'm not hopeful. It has to start at the top with the President. After yesterday's thoughtful speech & initial tweet, today he is back to his old self on Twitter. Who in Congress or in his Cabinet will have the guts to tell him to tone it down?
In regards to the rhetoric, again, I'm not hopeful. It has to start at the top with the President. After yesterday's thoughtful speech & initial tweet, today he is back to his old self on Twitter. Who in Congress or in his Cabinet will have the guts to tell him to tone it down?
"You've got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
From year to year,
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.
You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
You've got to be carefully taught.
You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!"
The Musical, South Pacific.
We are a Nation United in Hate.
To hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
From year to year,
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.
You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
You've got to be carefully taught.
You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!"
The Musical, South Pacific.
We are a Nation United in Hate.
1
So tiresome and heartbreaking - rights without responsibilities when money is involved. American culture and obsession with unbridled greed and hyperviolence must be reigned in - but how? Lawmakers don't care. Moviemakers, gamemakerssdon't care. Ignorance rules.
We constantly refuse to learn lessons from other societies - ignorance, choosing to ignore.
Families struggle to provide common decency and support for each other while those in positions to influence on a bigger scale have no sense of decency whatsoever.
Keep on keepin' on decent folks! Love you and yours and you can make it.
We constantly refuse to learn lessons from other societies - ignorance, choosing to ignore.
Families struggle to provide common decency and support for each other while those in positions to influence on a bigger scale have no sense of decency whatsoever.
Keep on keepin' on decent folks! Love you and yours and you can make it.
I am a Brit
In this matter, I believe the UK is truly blessed. Of all the ways in which we have been influenced by the USA over the years, thankfully, our gun laws still offer restraint and a safe(r) environment.
There is plenty of evidence in both our countries to show that we are more likely to fight for our individual rights than pay sufficient attention to our social responsibilities.
Making weapons readily available suggests increased liberty but actually results in increased pressure on the individual.
From my angle, it seems that the USA has a domestic arms race. Buy a (bigger) gun because 'Lord only knows what your neighbour is carrying on his hip'.
Like I say, I feel blessed. We have a fairly clear and strong, external locus of control in this matter which, I am sorry to say, our communities (apparently) do need.
In this matter, I believe the UK is truly blessed. Of all the ways in which we have been influenced by the USA over the years, thankfully, our gun laws still offer restraint and a safe(r) environment.
There is plenty of evidence in both our countries to show that we are more likely to fight for our individual rights than pay sufficient attention to our social responsibilities.
Making weapons readily available suggests increased liberty but actually results in increased pressure on the individual.
From my angle, it seems that the USA has a domestic arms race. Buy a (bigger) gun because 'Lord only knows what your neighbour is carrying on his hip'.
Like I say, I feel blessed. We have a fairly clear and strong, external locus of control in this matter which, I am sorry to say, our communities (apparently) do need.
2
I agree with whoever wrote Trump's message on the shooting. However, it has been crystal clear since Sandy Hook that in spite of what they deserve, our children will in fact, just get more of the same.
1
Our politics have indeed become toxic and sometimes lethal. The vast majority of this new war-politics comes from the right-wing, not the progressive/liberals. Yesterday was a rare exception - and of course it's all a travesty, as Sen. Sanders said. But, let's be clear about the source, because only then can we hope to bring the boil down to a low simmer.
"Lock and load" was not a liberal campaign slogan. It's vintage (Buchanan) right. Same with Trump's call last year for a 2nd Amendment solution. Trump's repeated advocacy for violence against campaign rally critics, and the literal assault on journalists are just more of the same old.
Hand-gun violence, long-guns, beatings, whatever variety of violence, it is mostly the product of hard-right demonization of the left; a view that the opposition is evil and that our politics are now a battlefield, a war, that must be won at all cost, and by any means necessary.
We will always have crazies among us, and some violence is bound to happen, especially with the abundance of guns. But the target should not, cannot be our politics, which otherwise brings us within half a step of civil war.
We must tone down our politics and stop vilifying those who disagree with us. It's time to stop trying to win elections through calls to war. Otherwise, more violence is certain. That might make for more gun sales, but it is no way to promote peace and safety.
"Lock and load" was not a liberal campaign slogan. It's vintage (Buchanan) right. Same with Trump's call last year for a 2nd Amendment solution. Trump's repeated advocacy for violence against campaign rally critics, and the literal assault on journalists are just more of the same old.
Hand-gun violence, long-guns, beatings, whatever variety of violence, it is mostly the product of hard-right demonization of the left; a view that the opposition is evil and that our politics are now a battlefield, a war, that must be won at all cost, and by any means necessary.
We will always have crazies among us, and some violence is bound to happen, especially with the abundance of guns. But the target should not, cannot be our politics, which otherwise brings us within half a step of civil war.
We must tone down our politics and stop vilifying those who disagree with us. It's time to stop trying to win elections through calls to war. Otherwise, more violence is certain. That might make for more gun sales, but it is no way to promote peace and safety.
1
Our politics have indeed become toxic and sometimes lethal. The vast majority of this new war-politics comes from the right-wing, not the progressive/liberals
==================
Not true at all. Almost all of the actual violence comes from the Left. Riots at the inauguration. Antifa thugs violently disrupting demonstrations. The disruption of many Trump rallies.
==================
Not true at all. Almost all of the actual violence comes from the Left. Riots at the inauguration. Antifa thugs violently disrupting demonstrations. The disruption of many Trump rallies.
1
"The vast majority of this new war-politics comes from the right-wing..."
Why don't you provide some facts to go along with this supposition. You might find in your research that there's no evidence of that. Anyways... you can go back to cheerleading.
Why don't you provide some facts to go along with this supposition. You might find in your research that there's no evidence of that. Anyways... you can go back to cheerleading.
2
One theme in online discussions is that only right leaning believers own guns and know how to shoot. Derogatory comments have insinuated that progressive and liberal Americans are unarmed, soft, urban dwellers, easily bullied with no stomach for retaliatory action. I think that inaccurate folklore was exposed yesterday.
My fear is that (1) millions of Americans will lose their health insurance and (2) loved family members will die due to lack of health care, in reality or merely perceived as such.
That's when mass retaliation will occur. Congress is playing the health care cards with a "loaded" deck.
My fear is that (1) millions of Americans will lose their health insurance and (2) loved family members will die due to lack of health care, in reality or merely perceived as such.
That's when mass retaliation will occur. Congress is playing the health care cards with a "loaded" deck.
4
I wonder who wrote the president's comments, because they certainly do not represent his comments as a candidate or as president.
8
Wish Scalise a good recovery. I do feel sorry for him but I feel far worse for Tamir Rice, Trayvon Martin, Sandra Bland, Etc etc etc. Too many far too very many with not a similar outpouring of deep concern about who we are at a too frequent given moment.
5
I have to wonder how Rand Paul feels about his 6/23/16 tweet about the second amendment now? "...Why do we have a Second Amendment? It's not to shoot at deer. It's to shoot at the government when it becomes tyrannical!"
Just wondering...
Just wondering...
7
The right-wingers who delight in denying what happened at Sandy Hook should take a look at themselves today. Trump stating that "our children deserve to grow up in a nation of safety and peace" must go another step forward - by calling for greater gun regulations in this country. Like that's gonna happen! I am disturbingly unmoved that Republicans were fired upon yesterday, perhaps because of the stranglehold the NRA has upon the entire party for SO LONG.
2
This editorial provides an interesting contrast to the NYT editorial last year after the Orlando shootings.
The prior editorial blamed Republicans: "While the precise motivation for the rampage remains unclear, it is evident that Mr. Mateen was driven by hatred toward gays and lesbians. Hate crimes don’t happen in a vacuum. They occur where bigotry is allowed to fester, where minorities are vilified and where people are scapegoated for political gain. Tragically, this is the state of American politics, driven too often by Republican politicians who see prejudice as something to exploit, not extinguish."
Surely the shooting of the Republican politicians and staffers didn't occur in a vacuum. Didn't Bernie Sanders exploit hatred of people who are better off?
Here's a Bernie quote: "Let us wage a moral and political war against the billionaires and corporate leaders, on Wall Street and elsewhere, whose policies and greed are destroying the middle class of America."
Democrats don't scapegoat people for political gain?
The prior editorial blamed Republicans: "While the precise motivation for the rampage remains unclear, it is evident that Mr. Mateen was driven by hatred toward gays and lesbians. Hate crimes don’t happen in a vacuum. They occur where bigotry is allowed to fester, where minorities are vilified and where people are scapegoated for political gain. Tragically, this is the state of American politics, driven too often by Republican politicians who see prejudice as something to exploit, not extinguish."
Surely the shooting of the Republican politicians and staffers didn't occur in a vacuum. Didn't Bernie Sanders exploit hatred of people who are better off?
Here's a Bernie quote: "Let us wage a moral and political war against the billionaires and corporate leaders, on Wall Street and elsewhere, whose policies and greed are destroying the middle class of America."
Democrats don't scapegoat people for political gain?
22
No they don't Bernie was just telling the truth. You think pointing out inequality is the same as championing bigotry and hate. Please most of us are not that stupid.
Don't forget Tim Kaine: "take the fight to the streets"
Don't forget Obama: "bring a gun"
Don't forget Obama: "bring a gun"
1
@Alex Publius: Sharp ,perceptive remarks, and I was not aware of the NYT quote blaming the Orlando Pulse massacre on Republicans. What a stretch! Should also point out that shooter on Thursday was not just a passing volunteer for the Sanders campaign, but someone who wrote letters to the editor on behalf of the candidate and was well known to campaign staff in Illinois.But Democratic Party establshment is trying to make people think that fusillade was simply a random act by someone out of control. He was out of control, off balance, sociopathic, but on the surface at least his actions were politically motivated. Nonetheless, it is regrettable that people with mental problems, loners whose bitterness feeds on that solitude would ruin everything for themselves and others by gun play. Liberal media has fed the hate of the average citizen towards Republicans, and to a certain extent, they must also be held accountable.Easy accessibility to weapons is part of the problem, but what are you gonna do? This is America, and the NRA is a strong. powerful force in our politics. Congressman Scalise's future i9s indeed uncertain, and sorrowful, lamentable reality is that the next moment is never promised to you.
Who is laughing at us now? Putin and the NRA. Once again America is proving to be ineffectual in preventing gun violence by advocating for more guns. A catch 22?
Not really. Perhaps the real beginning cause of yesterday's shooting in Alexandria was the majority leader McConnell's vow to oppose all Obama's legislation attempts as he took office in 2009. Obstruction immediately had a champion in the majority leader's call to his senate majority. Don't do anything to help the President. That didn't work as Obama was easily elected. Political extremism began then and has only progressed through the ensuing years. This was happily exploited by the NRA in stopping any common sense measure of gun control even after 20 innocent children died along with their teachers. Trump jumped on this vicious band wagon exhorting his followers to "get'em out of here" and "I'll pay for your defense." Now the chickens have come home to roost on the ball field and quickly another cry is heard in the land. "It's Bernie's fault." " The rabid left advocates violence." Excuses, excuses. It's time for a "time out" to reflect on the many causes of yesterday's event. Think very deeply about it. It will happen again, and Putin and the NRA will smile.
Not really. Perhaps the real beginning cause of yesterday's shooting in Alexandria was the majority leader McConnell's vow to oppose all Obama's legislation attempts as he took office in 2009. Obstruction immediately had a champion in the majority leader's call to his senate majority. Don't do anything to help the President. That didn't work as Obama was easily elected. Political extremism began then and has only progressed through the ensuing years. This was happily exploited by the NRA in stopping any common sense measure of gun control even after 20 innocent children died along with their teachers. Trump jumped on this vicious band wagon exhorting his followers to "get'em out of here" and "I'll pay for your defense." Now the chickens have come home to roost on the ball field and quickly another cry is heard in the land. "It's Bernie's fault." " The rabid left advocates violence." Excuses, excuses. It's time for a "time out" to reflect on the many causes of yesterday's event. Think very deeply about it. It will happen again, and Putin and the NRA will smile.
2
Gosh, what IS our country coming to when powerful men in Washington cannot safely play baseball outdoors without worrying about bullets flying?
3
It's important to remember that this does not happen everywhere. After killings we often hear that the bad guys would find a way to get guns, legal or illegal. And that's partially true. It's also true that in countries where people do not have the right to fire arms there a re far, far fewer homicides. At the baseball game Republican congressmen, who believe that it's good to carry, opted to play baseball unarmed. This put them at a huge disadvantage. Maybe the crazy person should've been unarmed too. With proper regulation there is a very good chance that he would've been unarmed. That's how it would've played out in Japan or South Korea or most other places a very high percentage of the time.
1
This guy was a good guy with valid permits lol.
1
When the second amendment to the constitution was enacted the arms of that time were muzzle loaded guns that could shoot a couple of rounds a minute. Today's arsenal of weapons can discharge many times that number in a matter of seconds. It defies common sense to apply that 1700s amendment to today's modern weaponry. Is there no recognition of that fact by our Supreme Court judges most of whom are Ivy League grads? Erudite for sure but certainly uneducated.
3
The Supreme Court can't bring a case before itself. Someone else has to do it.
Since it's in the constitution, you gotta change the constitution.
1
Right on! The 1st amendment shouldn't apply to computers and the internet!
Well, it's hard to feel sympathy for the Republican congressmen who were shot, when they are actively trying to make guns even more available, and now also silencers.
If the shooter had a silencer on his gun how much more damage could he have done?
This is insanity in the name of profits. Greed instead of reason.
And the fact that they have Cadillac insurance while the rest of us are in danger of losing our insurance adds to the feeling of helplessness and rage that leads to this kind of violence.
I wish that the Republicans had more care for others.
If the shooter had a silencer on his gun how much more damage could he have done?
This is insanity in the name of profits. Greed instead of reason.
And the fact that they have Cadillac insurance while the rest of us are in danger of losing our insurance adds to the feeling of helplessness and rage that leads to this kind of violence.
I wish that the Republicans had more care for others.
3
Example number 1 at how rhetoric demonizes and dehumanizes opponents. This leads to the environment where people get shot.
1
Today will be no different than yesterday or the day before or all the days before that - today, somewhere in America someone (or likely more than one) will be killed by a gun. We have made gun deaths a uniquely American phenomenon.
1
Guns. When will we learn?
1
Why the disappointment and complaining from so-called conservatives? Isn't this an example of the second amendment being used as they described?
Here we have a common citizen who used his first amendment rights to complain about what he perceived to be tyrannical government. Repeatedly, he complained to his elected representatives. Receiving no relief from the abuses he identified, he grabbed a firearm and set out water "the tree of liberty."
Now that it is their ox being gored, the sensitive Republicans (who had planned to pass legislation legalizing gun silencers yesterday), are upset by a citizen taking up arms, just as their rhetoric has described for decades. Oh, the sad irony!
Rather than calling for a hush in political discourse from those they prefer to abuse, perhaps the champions of all opportunities to express one's self with a firearm would do well to reflect on where such policies have taken us.
Here we have a common citizen who used his first amendment rights to complain about what he perceived to be tyrannical government. Repeatedly, he complained to his elected representatives. Receiving no relief from the abuses he identified, he grabbed a firearm and set out water "the tree of liberty."
Now that it is their ox being gored, the sensitive Republicans (who had planned to pass legislation legalizing gun silencers yesterday), are upset by a citizen taking up arms, just as their rhetoric has described for decades. Oh, the sad irony!
Rather than calling for a hush in political discourse from those they prefer to abuse, perhaps the champions of all opportunities to express one's self with a firearm would do well to reflect on where such policies have taken us.
4
Maybe the left, who is responsible for 90% of the gun violence will start coming after editorial boards...
10
I'd be very interested to hear how you arrived at that 90% figure.
Actually, not really. I'm certain you got that number from InfoWars. Seriously - no political orientation has a monopoly on hatred or violence. Comments like yours are not helping.
Actually, not really. I'm certain you got that number from InfoWars. Seriously - no political orientation has a monopoly on hatred or violence. Comments like yours are not helping.
Source of facts for your assertion, please.
Decided to look at comments and sure enough, plenty of talk about which "side" is to blame. Both sides are to blame. Anger begets anger. I keep thinking of Northern Ireland, Bosnia, even Syria. We still enjoy relative safety. Let's keep it that way.
4
This tragic shooting is not about politics nor speech. It is about a man who has a history of domestic violence being able to buy an assault rifle. Every day millions of Americans lives are changed forever by gun violence. There is no such thing as an individual being shot - everyone in the victims lives are changed forever. Forty years I was one of a very few Americans who knew a child being shot down in the streets today I am now one of millions who have experienced the life changing event. Millions of us who want this insanity to stop.
2
Forty years I was one of a very few Americans who knew a child being shot down in the streets today I am now one of millions who have experienced the life changing event.
====================
Forty years ago the gun death rate was much higher than it is now.
====================
Forty years ago the gun death rate was much higher than it is now.
Let's not stigmatize all people with mental health issues or behavioral problems as dangerous. Perhaps universal health care...?
1
We "civilized" folks find the idea of human sacrifice abhorrent. Yet, when practically unregulated access to firearms is worshipped, human nature will demand blood in payment.
1
This is not about left or right, GOP or Dems. The US has 43% of the world's privately owned firearms yet only 4.3% of the world's population. No matter how you spin the numbers it always adds up to the same thing: the more guns there are in civilian hands, the more gun-related deaths there will be. The evidence for this is overwhelming and irrefutable.
The gun lobby and their abetting politicians hold the lives of Americans and the very fabric of your nation in their hands and they refuse to do the right thing. They celebrate the bravery of the police, but turn a deaf ear to the pleas of those same officers begging for sensible gun laws. This is all about profit for the manufacturers and power for the politicians who support them.
It is a national disgrace.
The gun lobby and their abetting politicians hold the lives of Americans and the very fabric of your nation in their hands and they refuse to do the right thing. They celebrate the bravery of the police, but turn a deaf ear to the pleas of those same officers begging for sensible gun laws. This is all about profit for the manufacturers and power for the politicians who support them.
It is a national disgrace.
2
No matter how you spin the numbers it always adds up to the same thing: the more guns there are in civilian hands, the more gun-related deaths there will be. The evidence for this is overwhelming and irrefutable.
====================
Not true at all.
Since the early 90s the number of guns in circulation in the US has doubled, while the gun death rate fell by 50%
====================
Not true at all.
Since the early 90s the number of guns in circulation in the US has doubled, while the gun death rate fell by 50%
3
This was a terrible event. Nevertheless, I can't help but find it ironic that the Republicans keep insisting everyone needs to be armed in order to fight tyranny, including the mentally ill.
Clearly, this deranged individual thought, in some twisted way, that he was fighting tyranny. Is that really what we want to advocate to gun owners? Who's to say what any individual's definition of tyranny might be?
Clearly, this deranged individual thought, in some twisted way, that he was fighting tyranny. Is that really what we want to advocate to gun owners? Who's to say what any individual's definition of tyranny might be?
1
So Trump read a decent speech that someone prepared for him.....Media once again commending him for acting "presidential"......big deal. The hatred and bullying he unleashed in the last campaign is at least partially to blame for the toxic political atmosphere. He has done absolutely nothing to unite this country.
An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us -Paul Ryan
An attack on any American is an attack on all Americans -Barack Obama
An attack on one faith is an attack on all faiths -Barack Obama
An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us -Article 5, NATO
For all who will take up the sword, will die by the sword --Mathew 26:52
…all men are created equal --Declaration of Independence
I am my brother’s keeper --Genesis 4:9
Yesterday’s shooting was despicable, morbid, morally repugnant, the act of an unbalanced mind. But the real challenge is to turn this into a meaningful learning moment. So it doesn't happen again.
Listen America to what will cause violence, maim and kill Americans
• Too many guns (30,000 deaths a year)
• Depriving 23 million vulnerable Americans of healthcare to benefit 1%
• The travel ban, propagating religious and LBGT hostility
• Depriving Americans of a living wage and social safety net.
Politics it turns out is a blood sport.
And so, Mr. Ryan, is it just your Congressional colleagues who are covered by "...an attack on one of us is an attack on all of us"? Is it not time for Republicans to recognize that we are our brothers' keeper? That the attack on one American, regardless of nationality, faith, skin color, sexual or political orientation is an attack on all of us? Please say ‘yes’ --because it's really up to Republicans to take the lead.
An attack on any American is an attack on all Americans -Barack Obama
An attack on one faith is an attack on all faiths -Barack Obama
An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us -Article 5, NATO
For all who will take up the sword, will die by the sword --Mathew 26:52
…all men are created equal --Declaration of Independence
I am my brother’s keeper --Genesis 4:9
Yesterday’s shooting was despicable, morbid, morally repugnant, the act of an unbalanced mind. But the real challenge is to turn this into a meaningful learning moment. So it doesn't happen again.
Listen America to what will cause violence, maim and kill Americans
• Too many guns (30,000 deaths a year)
• Depriving 23 million vulnerable Americans of healthcare to benefit 1%
• The travel ban, propagating religious and LBGT hostility
• Depriving Americans of a living wage and social safety net.
Politics it turns out is a blood sport.
And so, Mr. Ryan, is it just your Congressional colleagues who are covered by "...an attack on one of us is an attack on all of us"? Is it not time for Republicans to recognize that we are our brothers' keeper? That the attack on one American, regardless of nationality, faith, skin color, sexual or political orientation is an attack on all of us? Please say ‘yes’ --because it's really up to Republicans to take the lead.
1
Trump may have said the words in your last paragraph,now who wrote them.?
Nothing and no one will convince me he has anything but self interest in mind
And how much he can make in the latest Trump business rip off.
Nothing and no one will convince me he has anything but self interest in mind
And how much he can make in the latest Trump business rip off.
1
I would never condone violence, no matter its inspiration. But let us not forget the scientific theorem, "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction." The words and actions of Trump during his campaign incited violence. The violent actions of hate-mongers, largely white supremacist/racist types who virulently support Trump, have skyrocketed since his election. Now one self-acclaimed "liberal" wields a weapon and the Right goes crazy. Sure, this guy was deranged, but it's interesting to see how outraged Republicans are at this act directed against one of their own. These same people continue to praise the NRA and stand by silently when gun violence occurs daily and afflicts the entire country.
3
And gun-rights advocates are crying that this shooting should not be politicized, that this is not an appropriate time to talk about gun control. But it IS the right time: in a few days we will move on, forget - and as usual, nothing will happen. Sympathy to the victims of both shootings, but if we do not use these incidents to insist on something better and more sane, they have truly been killed and wounded in vain, and as usual, more will die. NOW is the time to demand sensible gun control, and keep to demanding it.
46
If gun control advocates had had their way every one of those Republicans would have been murdered yesterday. This is the world Liberals seem to want.
1
How would they have been killed? Please tell. And do you really, truly think we liberals want everyone killed? A childish post, and an example of exactly the nonsense that has made America an armed camp with mass shootings almost every day. Please do some actual thinking and propose some actual remedies.
If massive gun ownership and weak restrictions were the cure for such violence then surely we would already be the safest country in the world, correct?
We lose an average of over 11,700 people each year due to getting shot by other Americans. If this was the number of citizens killed by immigrants or "Islamic terrorists" we'd see rapid action to limit gun availability (at least to those groups). In the meanwhile it seems that we're too concerned about keeping the gun market as liquid and free-flowing as possible to even consider uniform background checks and restrictions based upon medical conditions. What a country.
We lose an average of over 11,700 people each year due to getting shot by other Americans. If this was the number of citizens killed by immigrants or "Islamic terrorists" we'd see rapid action to limit gun availability (at least to those groups). In the meanwhile it seems that we're too concerned about keeping the gun market as liquid and free-flowing as possible to even consider uniform background checks and restrictions based upon medical conditions. What a country.
4
No one should be surprised at these incidents. We live in a time where hate speech and the incitement of others by talk show hosts, self styled political pundits and the politicians themselves has become the norm.
3
You failed to note that the violence so far since the election has been almost exclusively by those on the Left side of the political aisle.
2
Oh, have you stopped watching a Fox?
Recent history reveals that the attacker yesterday was homeless, had been living in his van for the past few months. In big cities everywhere in the U.S. - and Canada - there are growing populations of troubled under-employed men in this very same predicament - confused and despondent and angry. There is a clear need for stepped up mental health funding. Yet Donald Trump's Republicans are ignoring this reality. And yesterday, thanks to their stubborn inaction on gun control, the party got a close up taste of the phenomenon.
4
Obvious solution: do-it-yourself security for Congressional representatives: mandatory weapons training for members of Congress; require each one to " keep and bear" his/her weapon at all times, including when on a baseball field. Reps should also be authorized to shoot on sight any suspicious characters they meet. Advantage: Save taxpayers' money by firing Congressional police. Funeral expenses are already fully funded.
1
We are allowing our second amendment rights to be defined by business interests that benefit directly from gun sales. It is only the money they provide to Republican candidates that gives currency to their message and self interests. The last time I looked, they were paying $300 million per year to ensure their voice s heard.
First we must accept reality; most Americans see the need for 'strict' gun laws, we just don't influence our politicians to any great degree.
First we must accept reality; most Americans see the need for 'strict' gun laws, we just don't influence our politicians to any great degree.
4
Did the 2015 killing of three people at a Denver Planned Parenthood test the "Tea Partier" movement? The guy was an ardent right-wing Republican but I don't remember any call by the NY Times to Conservatives to flog themselves or temper their hateful rhetoric. More to the point, the NY Times wrote about "Congress" taking another look at its collective rhetoric and Democrats calling for Republicans to stop targeting Planned Parenthood. And what happened? Republicans doubled down on Planned Parenthood and they've now agreed to cut out its funding. Liberals should take note.
8
Our lessons from yesterday:
1) No one party or affiliation has cornered the market on mass shootings and terror. Anyone can get their hands on assault rifles and semi-automatic weapons and use them for any purpose, at any time.
2) Many people from all classes, all races, and all walks of life seem extremely disenchanted with their predicaments right now and want their leadership to do something about it.
3) Now more than ever, we need to get back to the politics of yesteryear where all the disparate wants & needs of our citizens must be reconciled through the hard work of healthy legislative debates where logic is called upon, research and evidence is applied, the rule of law is followed, and compromises reached. Everyone should get something at the end and everyone should sacrifice in proportionate measure.
What better time to show the world that democracy works and that the United States can call on their magnanimous natures to make it happen?
1) No one party or affiliation has cornered the market on mass shootings and terror. Anyone can get their hands on assault rifles and semi-automatic weapons and use them for any purpose, at any time.
2) Many people from all classes, all races, and all walks of life seem extremely disenchanted with their predicaments right now and want their leadership to do something about it.
3) Now more than ever, we need to get back to the politics of yesteryear where all the disparate wants & needs of our citizens must be reconciled through the hard work of healthy legislative debates where logic is called upon, research and evidence is applied, the rule of law is followed, and compromises reached. Everyone should get something at the end and everyone should sacrifice in proportionate measure.
What better time to show the world that democracy works and that the United States can call on their magnanimous natures to make it happen?
2
Mahatma Gandhi, described nonviolence as “the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man.” Guns are not a solution.
Saint Augustine: "It was pride that changed angels into devils; it is humility that makes men as angels." Using fire to fight fire is not a solution.
Saint Augustine: "It was pride that changed angels into devils; it is humility that makes men as angels." Using fire to fight fire is not a solution.
3
Contrary to popular belief, a man is not born insane, someone drives him there. Congratulations to those who drove him and to those who put the gun in his hand. I wonder if the congressman is wise enough to suspect his own party, especially the way they are going after Bernie in the aftermath.
5
This man was also someone who more than once severely beat his daughter, according to press reports from his hometown region. Let's not forget that and normalize him except for this incident.
5
As long as guns are so readily available even to the mentally disabled. there is no way of stopping this sort of thing. The NRA handily contributes to our doom.
5
“Though there’s no sign of incitement as direct as in the Giffords attack, liberals should of course hold themselves to the same standard of decency that they ask of the right" ... Still blaming Palin for Giffords. A flat out and despicable lie. Loughner had zero political motivation. Not so this shooter.
15
Loughner absolutely had political motivation. Where ever did you get the idea he didn't?
Donald Trump:
“If she gets to pick her judges, nothing you can do, folks, although the Second Amendment people, maybe there is, I don’t know.”
“If she gets to pick her judges, nothing you can do, folks, although the Second Amendment people, maybe there is, I don’t know.”
15
I saw something on Twitter that bothered me so much that I decided to delete the app from my phone, because I can't deal anymore. The tweet had a photo from a gun shop that said "We don't sell to Democrats or to ISIS, because nobody can tell the difference anymore." There were many replies to that tweet to the tune of "Amen, brother" and "yes, Democrats are terrorists and traitors." I'm sorry, but this is above and beyond offensive and cruel. It troubles me greatly that Americans think of their fellow citizens in that manner.
10
My wife was asking the other day why it seemed those on the right don't seem to be too much bothered by the Russians interfering with our latest presidential election. Why would Mike Flynn, a former general, be in cahoots with Russians, yet despise Former President Obama with extreme vitriol? The answer seems to be that Republicans long running demonization of those on the left has been so successful that 40% of the country now believes liberals are a greater threat to our country than Vladimir Putin. Crazy.
1
The bottom line.
What did these lawmakers think would happen when you saturate a country with arms? The man who shot the Congressman was mentally ill, but that wasn't a hindrance to republicans. It is republicans who have brought on our nations horrendous problems with mass shootings, something not seen in any other country.
Quit blaming the gun or the manufacturer or the second amendment. We will continue to be mowed down by bullets as long as lawmakers in the Republican Party are paid by outside forces to legislate as such. This is on us.
What did these lawmakers think would happen when you saturate a country with arms? The man who shot the Congressman was mentally ill, but that wasn't a hindrance to republicans. It is republicans who have brought on our nations horrendous problems with mass shootings, something not seen in any other country.
Quit blaming the gun or the manufacturer or the second amendment. We will continue to be mowed down by bullets as long as lawmakers in the Republican Party are paid by outside forces to legislate as such. This is on us.
6
The person who shot Giffords was mentally ill. The person who shot Scalise was a fervent anti-Trump leftist. There is a significant difference here.
1
"Yet consider the society Americans would have to live in — the choices they would all have to make — to enable that kind of defense."
Unfortunately, such a society is what our nation was founded on.
Conservatives today would have us return to the days of cowboys and Indians but the war now is simply about racism in general, not just "savage Indians".
Even if Rep. Scalice were packing heat, it would have been no match for a distant target armed with a high powered rifle. Clearly, putting more hand guns on the street will do little to protect us. Or do we all pack long guns over our shoulders on our way to work?
Perhaps it is the 1st Amendment that is the greatest threat to our society? Hate speech has not only been tolerated but become mainstream fodder for politicians and constituents alike. It is time we discover the sponsors of hate radio/TV, etc. and make sure not to support those businesses. Sad truth is money rules so that is the language me must learn to speak. Otherwise, voting or simply condemning violence makes little difference.
Unfortunately, such a society is what our nation was founded on.
Conservatives today would have us return to the days of cowboys and Indians but the war now is simply about racism in general, not just "savage Indians".
Even if Rep. Scalice were packing heat, it would have been no match for a distant target armed with a high powered rifle. Clearly, putting more hand guns on the street will do little to protect us. Or do we all pack long guns over our shoulders on our way to work?
Perhaps it is the 1st Amendment that is the greatest threat to our society? Hate speech has not only been tolerated but become mainstream fodder for politicians and constituents alike. It is time we discover the sponsors of hate radio/TV, etc. and make sure not to support those businesses. Sad truth is money rules so that is the language me must learn to speak. Otherwise, voting or simply condemning violence makes little difference.
1
Even if Rep. Scalice were packing heat, it would have been no match for a distant target armed with a high powered rifle. Clearly, putting more hand guns on the street will do little to protect us
==================
The CDC disagrees with you:
Defensive uses of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence, although the exact number remains disputed. Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year, in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008
https://www.nap.edu/read/18319/chapter/1
==================
The CDC disagrees with you:
Defensive uses of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence, although the exact number remains disputed. Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year, in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008
https://www.nap.edu/read/18319/chapter/1
1
Derangement started yesterday's violent attack, and brave individuals with guns stopped it.
8
In the wake of this event, I was hopeful that some of those who were at the baseball practice might make a connection between how they felt, following the assault, with how people feel who live with that level of threat, with a fear of their safety every day - day in and day out - here in America. I saw the terror and shock in the people who were at the baseball practice - what appeared to be the need for support, for someone who could listen to their story - someone who could help them feel safe again. I'm hopeful that when violence is experienced by those who have found myriad ways of buffering themselves from these ugly realities of much of life the country we've created, we awaken to that which needs to be taken care of. As we saw yesterday, taking care of just ourselves or just those in our buffered lived worlds does not keep us safe, even if at some level it looks or feels that way. What is it that we've not been willing to listen to? What is it that we've not been willing to see? Perhaps that is where we should look.
4
Will the NYT Editorial Board please please stop peddling the canard that Jared Loughner's shooting of Rep. Gabby Giffords had anything to do with Sarah Palin's campaign map? There is not a single shred of evidence that the paranoid schizophrenic Loughner even knew that map existed, much less was incited by it. Nothing. Nada. Zilch.
I understand the desire to point out that "the other side does this too," in response to the rabidly partisan James Hodgkinson's mass assassination attempt of GOP members of Congress, but it is despicable rely on a long-debunked myth to do so.
I understand the desire to point out that "the other side does this too," in response to the rabidly partisan James Hodgkinson's mass assassination attempt of GOP members of Congress, but it is despicable rely on a long-debunked myth to do so.
17
Debunked by whom? Alex Jones?
Palin’s rabidly partisan assassination attempt of Mr. Obama is despicable and is not a myth. No investigation. Why?
Palin’s rabidly partisan assassination attempt of Mr. Obama is despicable and is not a myth. No investigation. Why?
Would you be OK with the Vice President publishing a campaign map with rifle cross-hairs over your house? How would that make you feel if you later got violently attacked, even by someone who said they hadn't seen it? It was a violent threat in an image and was disgusting, as was Palin in general.
2
The left, including the Times, is completely gripped by insane, evidence-free conspiracy theories. They are no longer able to separate fantasy from reality
There's a reason why conservatives like myself will never support any of your "reasonable" or "common sense" gun laws. Because the supposed "fixes" you propose after a shooting would never have stopped the shooting, and the measures you propose that MAY stop one (like a complete Australia style ban on semi-automatics) is draconian and unconstitutional. Come up with a useful proposal besides bleating about "assault weapons" (which most of you know nothing about) or "high capacity clips." Otherwise, I'm going to infer that your "solutions" are just thinly veiled incremental proposals for a complete ban.
8
So what your solution besides complaining about people who want to improve the situation?
Yet another article that ignores the fact that more gun control will not serve to rein in those who are deranged & don't have in mind a reasonable approach to things not going their way. The only thing that is going to wrest control of a situation from someone doing this is someone else with a gun. Stats routinely show that communities with concealed carry laws have lower rates of gun violence & deaths due to guns.
How I wish that more time would be spent on the issue of prompting unity despite political differences & looking upon one another as individuals rather than part of a hated group. There is way too much hatred on display; people seem to have lost their ability to exercise fundamental self control, consideration for other people & dealing with one another with civility & decorum. If things continue down this same path, I figure that things will be similar to the way they were back in the ol' wild west. Is this what we really want? It seems to be what the left wants.
How I wish that more time would be spent on the issue of prompting unity despite political differences & looking upon one another as individuals rather than part of a hated group. There is way too much hatred on display; people seem to have lost their ability to exercise fundamental self control, consideration for other people & dealing with one another with civility & decorum. If things continue down this same path, I figure that things will be similar to the way they were back in the ol' wild west. Is this what we really want? It seems to be what the left wants.
6
Longing for societal amity and blaming everything on "the left" are mutually exclusive.
Two thoughts: I'm sure the NRA is putting the blame on the wounded in the shootings yesterday because they weren't carrying weapons to protect themselves. And secondly, for us to gather up the political will to do anything about our murderous gun-filled society, there will have to be a lot more blood in the streets. The two mass shootings that happened yesterday are just the new normal. Ho hum.
Trump and the Republicans have made it clear that they specifically do not represent anyone who didn't vote for them. At the highest levels, they explicitly, openly take pleasure in the doing things that distress those who don't support them. They refer to the institutions we revere, EPA, the fourth estate, safety net, etc, in extreme disparaging terms.
Trump is not the only one who called for Second Amendment remedies. They all cheered the Malheur occupation and those who pointed guns at the Feds during the Bundy confrontation. They are building prisons as fast as they can, reinvigorating the war on drugs (aka, the war on black people) and abusing even the most innocent of immigrant young people.
The Congress treated Barack Obama brutally and were derisive when our side resisted Gorsuch. Trump led the charge to subvert the president that we elected with intentionally dishonest propaganda about his birth, religion and integrity.
This has been going on for years. Arguably it started with Reagan and welfare queens, certainly by 94 with Gingrich, worsening relentlessly since 9/11. It became clear during the Obama administration that, contrary to their pretense, liberals will never be allowed to be represented or have influence in our governance.
Violence is never the answer but many are people are crazier, less mature or think that it is. This guy was unbalanced but he was not tipped over the edge by liberal ideology. He was provoked, brutally, repeatedly and intentionally.
Trump is not the only one who called for Second Amendment remedies. They all cheered the Malheur occupation and those who pointed guns at the Feds during the Bundy confrontation. They are building prisons as fast as they can, reinvigorating the war on drugs (aka, the war on black people) and abusing even the most innocent of immigrant young people.
The Congress treated Barack Obama brutally and were derisive when our side resisted Gorsuch. Trump led the charge to subvert the president that we elected with intentionally dishonest propaganda about his birth, religion and integrity.
This has been going on for years. Arguably it started with Reagan and welfare queens, certainly by 94 with Gingrich, worsening relentlessly since 9/11. It became clear during the Obama administration that, contrary to their pretense, liberals will never be allowed to be represented or have influence in our governance.
Violence is never the answer but many are people are crazier, less mature or think that it is. This guy was unbalanced but he was not tipped over the edge by liberal ideology. He was provoked, brutally, repeatedly and intentionally.
I'm perplexed by how a gun control argument can be made from this event. The shooter used a rifle that was legally purchased in Illinois, one of the toughest gun control states. It was concealed until the time it was used. If anything, it illustrates that not licensing, nor waiting periods, nor restrictions can stop a determined criminal from doing his ugly work with the instrument of his choice.
Calls for tighter controls at times like these are an understandable fear-based reaction but in truth, calling for more gun control in the wake of an active shooter is about as useful as calling for a Muslim ban in the wake of a terrorist event.
Calls for tighter controls at times like these are an understandable fear-based reaction but in truth, calling for more gun control in the wake of an active shooter is about as useful as calling for a Muslim ban in the wake of a terrorist event.
9
I am sorry, there is only one side that uses character assassination as their favorite political tool. There is only one party that has deliberately chosen to distort or lie about climate change, evolution, Obama Care and a host of other important issues. There is only one party that took a pledge to a non-elected official circumventing their Constitutional oath. There is only one party that intentional shut down the US Government. There is only one party that supported a man-boy for president, knowing full well is was incapable of performing the required obligations, and thus putting our Country and future at risk.
It is important that we all re-read the first three paragraphs of the Declaration of Independence.
Show us the tax returns. This president is illegitimate because he cheated to win.
It is important that we all re-read the first three paragraphs of the Declaration of Independence.
Show us the tax returns. This president is illegitimate because he cheated to win.
3
Amazing that Democrats and liberal-progressives are taking no responsibility for the violence that they are inciting, even as it grows.
The hate speech emanating from the DNC and their allies at NYT and MSNBC grows. We have constant talk about "resistance" and "revolution".
1-2 years ago we had assassinations of police officers by BLM sympathizers.
This year, rioting and looting on college campuses in order to silence any politically incorrect speech.
Now we have attempted assassinations of Republican congressmen.
The left needs to call a ceasefire.
The hate speech emanating from the DNC and their allies at NYT and MSNBC grows. We have constant talk about "resistance" and "revolution".
1-2 years ago we had assassinations of police officers by BLM sympathizers.
This year, rioting and looting on college campuses in order to silence any politically incorrect speech.
Now we have attempted assassinations of Republican congressmen.
The left needs to call a ceasefire.
10
Why should "liberals" have to answer for the actions of a deranged person whose horrendous crime was made possible by the Republican obsession with allowing every American to buy guns, no questions asked. When Rep Giffords was shot and 6 people were killed by Jared Loughner after divisive rhetoric by Sarah Palin, were "conservatives" blamed? instead, Republicans in Congress responded by refusing to put in place ANY controls over gun sales. Will Republicans now respond by making it possible for every man, woman, and child to carry guns where ever they go in their daily lives?
1
"In 2011, when Jared Lee Loughner opened fire in a supermarket parking lot, grievously wounding Representative Gabby Giffords and killing six people, including a 9-year-old girl, the link to political incitement was clear. Before the shooting, Sarah Palin’s political action committee circulated a map of targeted electoral districts that put Ms. Giffords and 19 other Democrats under stylized cross hairs."
Wow, this is very dishonest. There was absolutely no link between Loughner and Palin. This fact has been discussed at length through the years. What's happening to the NYT?
Wow, this is very dishonest. There was absolutely no link between Loughner and Palin. This fact has been discussed at length through the years. What's happening to the NYT?
16
What a perfect example of selective editing. Now, go back and actually read the ENTIRE editorial. This time, don't omit the three sentences that follow your quote.
I think you know what is happening to the NYT...
Do yourself a favor and read District of Columbia v. Heller (2008), the 5-4 Supreme Court case that put guns in every paid of American hands. It's the most dishonest and ridiculous -- and willful -- pack of nonsense Scalia ever wrote. Despite calling himself an originalist, Scalia deliberately misread the Second Amendment in order to deliver to right-wingers the political victory they sought. Live with the consequences, Mr. Scalese.
2
Amend this editorial immediately! Palin was not the impetus to the Gifford's shooting as the facts since then clearly show and as reputable news outlets across the spectrum agree. Are you deliberately lying and just incompetent?
Fix it now.
Fix it now.
15
And they did. The New York Times made an error and fixed it, and acknowledged it in the story, so that anyone who reads it will know the editorial was amended. Imagine if we had a president that responded as quickly and responsibly to errors and falsehoods when called out on it. Another reason why I trust the Times more than I trust Trump.
The NRA is 3% of America, and according to polls 90% of the NRA supports some gun reform. Which means the country is being held hostage by less than 1%. Democracies aren't suppose to be beholden to any 1%, they are suppose to be work for the good and will of the majority. So let's start the ARN, Against Rifle Nuts. The 99% can fund it, it can fund politicians that vote for sensible gun laws and we can move past this choke hold.
1
"Was this attack evidence of how vicious American politics has become?"
Look. In. The. Mirror.
Look. In. The. Mirror.
13
... and yet, the continued focus and fear, of terrorism. The real terrorists are already living here, and have easy access to their weapon of choice.
I read somewhere yesterday, that solution to yesterday's shooting is to have more armed guards around congressmen. Hey guys, what about the rest of us?
I read somewhere yesterday, that solution to yesterday's shooting is to have more armed guards around congressmen. Hey guys, what about the rest of us?
Even with everyone carrying a firearm, and everyone trained and willing to kill with it to protect themselves and their kin, innocent people will still be shot and die. In the time it takes for someone to react, 5 people or more can be dead. Unless you're just waiting and prepared all the time, someone will die before you or anyone else can react. To be prepared, you need to know in advance who to aim at. How're you going to know who that is? Given that in this particular dystopian future, everyone would have a gun, you can't just simply say, "oh it's easy, it's the guy with a gun." The issue goes far beyond gun control, the core of it is the ethos of violence that saturates society.
1
Actually, your statement regarding the AZ shooting that "the link to political incitement was clear" is incorrect.
Loughner was unbalanced for many years, had many bizarre beliefs, and had a longstanding issue with Rep Giffords. According to someone who knew him she was unable to answer the question "What is government if words have no meaning?" at a previous event, and he had grudge against her since then. This has been well documented (see http://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/the-language-and-literature-o..., and the fact that NYT and other media persists in linking the shooting to Palin does a disservice to the public debate and their credibility.
Loughner was unbalanced for many years, had many bizarre beliefs, and had a longstanding issue with Rep Giffords. According to someone who knew him she was unable to answer the question "What is government if words have no meaning?" at a previous event, and he had grudge against her since then. This has been well documented (see http://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/the-language-and-literature-o..., and the fact that NYT and other media persists in linking the shooting to Palin does a disservice to the public debate and their credibility.
17
"In 2011, when Jared Lee Loughner opened fire in a supermarket parking lot, grievously wounding Representative Gabby Giffords and killing six people, including a 9-year-old girl, the link to political incitement was clear."
And from todays NYT Op-Ed email summary, Mr. Leonhardt says "So on the day of a senseless, politically motivated attempt at mass murder, I went back in time to read a column about an equally senseless, politically motivated attempt at mass murder — but one that evidently came from the other side of the political spectrum."
Shabby mistake, or shameless lie? If the latter, it is one that the NYT and Krugman should have abjectly apologized the first time but, inexplicably, did not.
If David Leonhhardt had any intellectual integrity, he would apologize this time around.
I'm not holding my breath.
And from todays NYT Op-Ed email summary, Mr. Leonhardt says "So on the day of a senseless, politically motivated attempt at mass murder, I went back in time to read a column about an equally senseless, politically motivated attempt at mass murder — but one that evidently came from the other side of the political spectrum."
Shabby mistake, or shameless lie? If the latter, it is one that the NYT and Krugman should have abjectly apologized the first time but, inexplicably, did not.
If David Leonhhardt had any intellectual integrity, he would apologize this time around.
I'm not holding my breath.
13
I'm sorry, but I am not at all impressed by President Trump's "kumbaya" comments, not after he called for someone to exercise their second amendment rights if Mrs. Clinton were to select someone not of the right's liking for the Supreme Court. It starts at the top, sir, and you have to be consistent. It's intellectually dishonest to go "kumbaya" only when one of your supporters gets shot. That being said, praying for the swift and full recovery of all who were injured at the ball field yesterday AND that, from the President on down, the hateful rhetoric ON BOTH SIDES ceases. But there has to be leadership by example, Mr. President.
3
The near total insanity of the Republican party to not recognize its own guilt in the breakdown of civility and of our society is appalling. They promote hate on every level, ten guns for every house. Trump allows the mentally ill to buy and own guns, then the destruction of the middle class, environment now the ACA and they are surprised that people want to kill them? I am surprised it is not happening more often! And look at the republicans saying if they had guns on the field it would have been better. They had police and couldn't do anything. Live by the sword die by sword.
3
Leave it to the rag NYT to blame the victim, AGAIN! The Republicans were clearly targeted by this man because of HIS political vitriol and yet they blame the right? It's the left media baiting rhetoric that has divided this country and continues to divide this country. Giffords ring a bell? Take responsibility for your actions and start bringing the country together. The NYT USED to report the truth, now they have an agenda to destroy the right and conservatives.
12
With so many guns and so much anger what did we expect? Was I horrified by yesterday's shootings? Yes. Surprised? No. Not at all. Revolution and guns are in our DNA. Not even 24 hours after trying to unite the country, our President is out stirring things up again this morning. Calm, thoughtfu, bipartisan leadership is nowhere on the national stage. The nation decided to give the country to one party (or did we?) So anger will continue. With guns.
2
"Every member of Congress, and every other American of whatever age, would have to go to baseball practice, or to school, or to work, or to the post office, or to the health clinic — or to any of the other places mass shootings now take place — with a gun on their hip." We are already well on our way to this dystopia what with NRA promotion toward more and more gun ownership by expanding and softening concealed carry laws, advocacy of unregulated open carry, broadening of the castle doctrine to everywhere and fearmongering about increasing crime when it is in fact declining.
Of course universal gun toting would create jobs in weapons manufacturing and security sectors and also in the nascent area of mobile gun lockers where, for a fee, you can store your gun outside venues which prohibit bringing them in. The latter has already been proposed for outside Busch Stadium here in St. Louis.
Of course universal gun toting would create jobs in weapons manufacturing and security sectors and also in the nascent area of mobile gun lockers where, for a fee, you can store your gun outside venues which prohibit bringing them in. The latter has already been proposed for outside Busch Stadium here in St. Louis.
This presidency has been filled with hate against Trump. One celebrity holds up a severed head of Tromp. Another celebrity claims he dreams of beating Trump with golf clubs. A play is produced that shows Trump being assassinated. One news agency ran a program speculating an Obama appointee might be president if Trump was killed. Editorials are laced with name calling. There is a viciousness about the Trump presidency that I have never seen before towards any other president. I expect they will make adjustments to improve congress' protection. But will the vicious personal attacks by the press diminish any? Who knows? They do have the opportunity to ratchet down the personal attack and focus on the policies.
10
I seem to recall, during the 8 years of Presidrnt Obama's presidency, numerous obscene threats against him and his family. Foremost, was the birther lie promulgated by the current occupant of the White House. The.virulent right wing media: Limbaugh, Jones, Savage, Levin, Drudge, Breitbart et al continue to spread their hatred and lies, now targeting legitimate and respected news organizations, led again by trump. Sad, but the majority of us aren't buying it.
1
Sure, make it all about the guns so we can side-step the idea that the shooter was an unhinged liberal whose anti-Trump sentiment was stoked into a murderous by the liberal media's incessant hate campaign. Surprising, since you managed to link the Giffords shooting with a conservative politician.
11
I understand the shooting of congressmen is shocking, but to them I say: welcome to the NRA world you contibuted to.
Let's not forget that at the same time, and due to the same free access to guns, three people were killed in San Francisco.
Let's not forget that at the same time, and due to the same free access to guns, three people were killed in San Francisco.
1
Yet, people still refuse to talk about gun restriction laws? I don't know if most Americans realize that the national obsession with guns makes us look ridiculous to the rest of the world! If we didn't get serious about gun reform after Sandy Hook, we aren't going to do it. The NRA is simply too powerful.
By the way, I am a gun owner.
By the way, I am a gun owner.
3
I see a lot of calls for onerous testing requirements, excessive fees, and "insurance" policies that no one will write as "common sense" gun restrictions. Coming from the people who throw a tantrum when a person is asked to get a $5 photo ID in order to vote, that's pretty rich.
5
Unfortunately in retrospect the Republican response to the mass shooting would be to accuse the lefties of ultra and inflammatory rhetoric. Secondly their solution to these shootings would be a need for looser restrictions on gun ownership as only an automatic pistol or rifle could defeat another of the same.
So we should prepare for practice by packing an Uzi in our back pocket and as we get into position at shortstop attempt to field a ball while readying for a counterattack.
The only solution to mass killing remains gun control and more gun control. If the right wing wants to stop weapon proliferation they must support gun control initiatives and stop taking funds from the NRA. Enough with right wing pretzel logic especially where lives are concerned.
So we should prepare for practice by packing an Uzi in our back pocket and as we get into position at shortstop attempt to field a ball while readying for a counterattack.
The only solution to mass killing remains gun control and more gun control. If the right wing wants to stop weapon proliferation they must support gun control initiatives and stop taking funds from the NRA. Enough with right wing pretzel logic especially where lives are concerned.
We don't want less weapons, we want weapons to protect ourselves from YOU! The real enemies of the republic aren't from overseas, they are the left.
1
Is so much press coverage and fuss over the shooting of yet another American warranted when tens of thousands are routinely murdered in similar fashion every year across America? So what if this guy is a Congressman, does that make him special?
1
... and the NYT, the Washington Post, CNN and other liberal media will continue to destroy what's left of that nation by deliberately tearing down the last barriers against more such acts by not giving any respect toward to office of the President, or respecting basic decency when commenting on his or the Republican Congress' decisions.
You wanted this, you secretly hoped for this to happen (on a much bigger scale, of course), you (and your editors and commentators) suggested, encouraged and instigated all kinds of radical action, because of the "special, unprecedent, dramatic" circumstances.
You (and the Dowd's, Blow's, Collin's of your paper) owe an apology to America.
You wanted this, you secretly hoped for this to happen (on a much bigger scale, of course), you (and your editors and commentators) suggested, encouraged and instigated all kinds of radical action, because of the "special, unprecedent, dramatic" circumstances.
You (and the Dowd's, Blow's, Collin's of your paper) owe an apology to America.
12
Yes, all problems in the US are caused by the Times who has forced people to buy 300 million guns. I though people in Switzerland were smarter than that.
Shame on you for tying Jared Lee Loughner to Sarah Palin or any political figure. He was never associated with Republicans or conservatives at all. Both parties use terms like "targets" and "crosshairs" and there was never any reason to think Loughner was influenced by anything put out by Sarah Palin. His only political identification was a friend saying he was liberal, but he was crazy, evil or both. There is a world of difference between one crazy, evil man with paranoid views against the government targeting his local representative and another crazy, evil man targeting representatives of an entire political party. The absurdity of your comparison is why we have Fox News and the like. I won't defend their nonsense; neither will I defend yours.
9
"Though there’s no sign of incitement as direct as in the Giffords attack..."
Oh Please. Any connection between the Palin 'map and Giffords' shooting was debunked long ago. In that case the shooter was a mentally ill young man who hated all politicians and had been obsessed with Giffords for some time. Not quite the same situation as yesterday's targeting of Republicans. At all.
I am sure the NYT will continue sponsorship of the Caesar/Trump play. I am sure the NYT will continue to publish op-ed pieces by Blow, Krugman and others who call Republicans 'evil' and say that 'Resistance' is a moral imperative. At least be honest enough to admit that you help create the climate that encourages violent response to political acts. Dredging up a debunked linkage from a shooting six years ago is not being honest.
Oh Please. Any connection between the Palin 'map and Giffords' shooting was debunked long ago. In that case the shooter was a mentally ill young man who hated all politicians and had been obsessed with Giffords for some time. Not quite the same situation as yesterday's targeting of Republicans. At all.
I am sure the NYT will continue sponsorship of the Caesar/Trump play. I am sure the NYT will continue to publish op-ed pieces by Blow, Krugman and others who call Republicans 'evil' and say that 'Resistance' is a moral imperative. At least be honest enough to admit that you help create the climate that encourages violent response to political acts. Dredging up a debunked linkage from a shooting six years ago is not being honest.
11
Sandy Hook children were sitting ducks. And still Congress did nothing.
Will Congress now understand? "He was hunting us."
Will Congress now understand? "He was hunting us."
3
Representatives who serve "love their country". True. For the most part they are affluent and successful. They just don't love the people they share it with.
1
"Conservatives and right-wing media were quick on Wednesday to demand forceful condemnation of hate speech and crimes by anti-Trump liberals."
Dear conservatives, for years we have suffered hate speech and death to gays by you guys, hate speech and death to abortion providers by you guys, and more recently hate speech and death wishes to President Obama. So I can only say "REALLY?"
Dear conservatives, for years we have suffered hate speech and death to gays by you guys, hate speech and death to abortion providers by you guys, and more recently hate speech and death wishes to President Obama. So I can only say "REALLY?"
"President Trump said just the right thing after the attack on Wednesday: 'We may have our differences, but we do well in times like these to remember that everyone who serves in our nation’s capital is here because, above all, they love our country. We can all agree that we are blessed to be Americans, that our children deserve to grow up in a nation of safety and peace.'"
I don't believe for one minute that Lyin' Donnie Trump was the author of the comment quoted above. It is much too focused and articulate to have been the product of Donnie's disordered mind. Let's acknowledge that it was written for him by a staffer who, by sheer luck, was able to capture the president's gnat-like attention when it mattered the most.
I don't believe for one minute that Lyin' Donnie Trump was the author of the comment quoted above. It is much too focused and articulate to have been the product of Donnie's disordered mind. Let's acknowledge that it was written for him by a staffer who, by sheer luck, was able to capture the president's gnat-like attention when it mattered the most.
I am willing to wager that gun sales spike in the next couple of weeks.
2
Believe it or not, certain corporate entities put their shareholders money into an investment in public theater that portrays the assassination of the President of the United States. One of those corporate entities is the New York Times. And the assassinated president is clearly intended to portray Trump. Sorry, NYT, you own part of this unhinged behavior.
8
You would think by now the NYT would have the facts, and understand that Gifford's shooter was not motivated by politics, but by a severe untreated mental illness. To continue on with the lie that somehow Palin's campaign was responsible is to add to the virulent political climate. Shame on the NYT.
12
Faux life fetal obsessionists who label health care providers as murderers are advocates of vigilantism & terrorism. Yet we allow faux lifers the “pro-life” label?
"In 2011, when Jared Lee Loughner opened fire in a supermarket parking lot, grievously wounding Representative Gabby Giffords and killing six people, including a 9-year-old girl, the link to political incitement was clear. Before the shooting, Sarah Palin’s political action committee circulated a map of targeted electoral districts that put Ms. Giffords and 19 other Democrats under stylized cross hairs."
WHAT?!
I'm appalled that the Times is still peddling that ridiculous slander.
WHAT?!
I'm appalled that the Times is still peddling that ridiculous slander.
7
Thank you for branding it "A particularly American form of terror." Let's face it. The greatest terrorist threat facing our citizens today is the angry and/or deranged and/or racist white American male with a gun.
If anybody should be denounced for inciting violence, it's the bully currently in the White House.
4
The New York Times editorial page drags out the old tripe about Sarah Palin's website somehow inciting Jared Loughner, despite the fact that there is ZERO evidence he ever went to her website. That is intellectually dishonest to its' very core, yet the Times sees fit to drag that up to somehow try to put the blame on Republicans and conservatives for this attack. Come on, now. Even Bernie Sanders, for whom I have absolutely no political respect, gave an honest and decent response to the shooting. Why can't the Times do the same?
11
I don't own a gun and never will. I REALLY wish this guaranteed that I will never be shot, but there is nothing else I can do.
1
93 million people killed a day by guns ---
Gov McAuliffe
this is more serious than I thought
Gov McAuliffe
this is more serious than I thought
2
The left wanted to execute President Trump and his children over the coveffee typo, but this display of blatant stupidity by McAuliffe gets a free pass. Their bias is truly deadly
1
Is there any evidence the man who shot Giffords was inspired by Sarah Palin? If not, why mention that?
11
The editorial proves that the NYT's use of lies and fake news to promote a narrative is extreme and can not be minimized.
Laughner was never motivated by any political climate or rhetoric. He was a paranoid schizophrenic who had a psychotic vendetta specifically against Giffords. After listening to voices in his head he decided to kill Giffords. This was not a politically motivated attack! Just because Obama and the MSM lied about his motivation does not make it true.
The left and the media must hold itself accountable for the relentless hate and venom it spews against anyone who politically disagrees with them.
Laughner was never motivated by any political climate or rhetoric. He was a paranoid schizophrenic who had a psychotic vendetta specifically against Giffords. After listening to voices in his head he decided to kill Giffords. This was not a politically motivated attack! Just because Obama and the MSM lied about his motivation does not make it true.
The left and the media must hold itself accountable for the relentless hate and venom it spews against anyone who politically disagrees with them.
12
...as does the right. It happens on both sides of the political divide.
I'm a republican and the hate coming from the right is far worse than any I see in The NY Times or CNN. Open your mind and heart.
Why do we hear so little about Trump's "second Amendment people" with reference to getting rid of Hillary? Isn't this birds coming home to roost?
George Lattimore
Jakarta, Indonesia
George Lattimore
Jakarta, Indonesia
The Editorial Board writes this regarding the Gabby Giffords shooting: "the link to political incitement was clear." And it would have been true had Loughner been a part of that scene. But Loughner was not a part of the hyper-political, easily influenceable scene. Instead, he was a crazy man with a mish mash of political views, none of which seemed to drive him.
This is a contemptible error by The Times. There was no link to political incitement in the Giffords shooting except for Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc. The Times should correct.
This is a contemptible error by The Times. There was no link to political incitement in the Giffords shooting except for Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc. The Times should correct.
9
Our toxic politics feed this. No doubt about it.
2
As usual the Times jumps to the gun issue, and of course adds misinformation to push their political viewpoint.
How trite. Claiming Jared Loughner was motivated by something Sarah Palin said is a complete falsehood. Loughner was a clear cut diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic, whose favorite book was apparently "the Communist Manifesto". He had not voted in years and had no political affiliation. On the other hand Hodgkinson has no documented history of mental illness, was a devoted Bernie follower, worked on his campaign, and many of his website rants against rich people and corporations were pretty much word for word what one might hear at a Sanders rally. I am not denying that there is political rhetoric on both sides that clearly needs to come down many notches and can motivate certain people to violence. But clearly this incident demonstrates that the constant echo of hateful speech and rhetoric coming from the left, including actual threats from some of the protected Hollywood crowd, has consequences.
Of course we wouldn't expect any such admission from the Times. Let's just pretend this is another crazy man with a gun, and if we somehow take away a few of the 280 million guns currently in circulation in the US, all will be just fine.
How trite. Claiming Jared Loughner was motivated by something Sarah Palin said is a complete falsehood. Loughner was a clear cut diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic, whose favorite book was apparently "the Communist Manifesto". He had not voted in years and had no political affiliation. On the other hand Hodgkinson has no documented history of mental illness, was a devoted Bernie follower, worked on his campaign, and many of his website rants against rich people and corporations were pretty much word for word what one might hear at a Sanders rally. I am not denying that there is political rhetoric on both sides that clearly needs to come down many notches and can motivate certain people to violence. But clearly this incident demonstrates that the constant echo of hateful speech and rhetoric coming from the left, including actual threats from some of the protected Hollywood crowd, has consequences.
Of course we wouldn't expect any such admission from the Times. Let's just pretend this is another crazy man with a gun, and if we somehow take away a few of the 280 million guns currently in circulation in the US, all will be just fine.
8
Horrible acts like this one defy reasoning, though the loaded gun these days in America is neglect of human needs, and the ammunition is greed.
"That is the society the gun lobby is working toward. Is it the one Americans want?" you say again.
Stop asking the same idiotic question, will you?
You know what Americans want. By a wide margin.
How many times do we have to say it? I swear you're as deaf as the NRA, but at least they have a reason.
What are you going to do about it? Why did you even ask?
Are you going to track the sordid deals between politicians and NRA? Are you going to track and reveal the money? Are you going to chart the ways elections have been hijacked and perverted to guarantee a perpetual win for this destructive organization?
Are you ever, even once, going to write about the craven cowardice, the lies, and the duplicity of legislators who defy their constituents and justify it with falsehoods, fake patriotism, and utter disregard for the realities of gun culture and the needs of their districts? Will you cite examples and name names?
If not, then maybe its best if you just leave it alone from now on. You clearly have nothing new to offer.
Here, this would make a cool feature: how about a William Safire style textual analysis of all the "Our hearts go out..." speeches of the last decade. Compare and contrast style based upon position in government and, oh, personal wealth. Id love that.
Stop asking the same idiotic question, will you?
You know what Americans want. By a wide margin.
How many times do we have to say it? I swear you're as deaf as the NRA, but at least they have a reason.
What are you going to do about it? Why did you even ask?
Are you going to track the sordid deals between politicians and NRA? Are you going to track and reveal the money? Are you going to chart the ways elections have been hijacked and perverted to guarantee a perpetual win for this destructive organization?
Are you ever, even once, going to write about the craven cowardice, the lies, and the duplicity of legislators who defy their constituents and justify it with falsehoods, fake patriotism, and utter disregard for the realities of gun culture and the needs of their districts? Will you cite examples and name names?
If not, then maybe its best if you just leave it alone from now on. You clearly have nothing new to offer.
Here, this would make a cool feature: how about a William Safire style textual analysis of all the "Our hearts go out..." speeches of the last decade. Compare and contrast style based upon position in government and, oh, personal wealth. Id love that.
1
Two points:
One, as a lifelong NYT reader who isn't a Liberal, this problem stems from a breakdown in civility. If you aren't a liberal your motives are considered "evil". In my lifetime, I've seen the switch from people of differing viewpoints having various answers and solutions to a problem to "if you don't agree with me it must be because you're evil (racist, etc). It didn't use to be this way. For some reasons, liberal Democrats seem to feel that Republicans are pure evil. You only have to read the Times everyday to see this "evil motive" perpetuated in both Editorial and Opinion pieces. Even with the horrific events that occurred yesterday, most of the NYT reader comments consisted of "let me express my sympathies but.... I say awake each night scared my social security and healthcare will be taken away by those Republicans". As if some evil cabal is at work plotting to take away someone's rights. I've never impugned the motives of my liberal friends and family. I appreciate that we have different views to solving a problem and the ability to persuade and debate are important. We need more of that.
Two, never thought I'd see an NYT Editorial with a paragraph that begins "President Trump said just the right thing ....". I think we need more of that versus the kneejerk reaction that seems to be more typical (Disclosure: I'm a Democrat and I didn't vote for him but he won and I'm too old to keep waiting for another 4 years so I want to see him and the country succeed).
One, as a lifelong NYT reader who isn't a Liberal, this problem stems from a breakdown in civility. If you aren't a liberal your motives are considered "evil". In my lifetime, I've seen the switch from people of differing viewpoints having various answers and solutions to a problem to "if you don't agree with me it must be because you're evil (racist, etc). It didn't use to be this way. For some reasons, liberal Democrats seem to feel that Republicans are pure evil. You only have to read the Times everyday to see this "evil motive" perpetuated in both Editorial and Opinion pieces. Even with the horrific events that occurred yesterday, most of the NYT reader comments consisted of "let me express my sympathies but.... I say awake each night scared my social security and healthcare will be taken away by those Republicans". As if some evil cabal is at work plotting to take away someone's rights. I've never impugned the motives of my liberal friends and family. I appreciate that we have different views to solving a problem and the ability to persuade and debate are important. We need more of that.
Two, never thought I'd see an NYT Editorial with a paragraph that begins "President Trump said just the right thing ....". I think we need more of that versus the kneejerk reaction that seems to be more typical (Disclosure: I'm a Democrat and I didn't vote for him but he won and I'm too old to keep waiting for another 4 years so I want to see him and the country succeed).
3
This is a tragedy – but, violence begets violence. America was built on violence, on the backs of slaves, and Chinamen, and Native Americans, and anyone else who was not white and wealthy who could be exploited by capitalism or eradicated if they got in the way because that was the “natural” order of the world. Today Americans carry on with the violent myth of natural winners and losers. When you take healthcare away from people, and they get sick and die, it is violence. When the price of prescription drugs is so high that no one but the wealthy can afford them, it is an act of violence. When some don’t get a quality, education resulting in little opportunity, that is violence. When you value only monetary profit and disparage social profit in the name of “self-reliance,” when you create economic policies that benefit only the privileged, leaving others scratching for a few drops of trickle-down nourishment, that is violence. When you put a gun in the hands of everyone, the inevitable outcome is violence. The Virginia shooting is a tragedy, but perhaps now Congress might have a taste of what it is like every day for those living on the South Side of Chicago, an environment produced by the violent legislative policies of the privileged. When a Congressman gets shot it’s big news, but black teenagers get shot every day. Every day people suffer the violent effects from insufficient education, employment and healthcare. Guess what? We don’t care. It’s the American way.
2
NYT’s “editorial board has now done editorials about Pulse and Alexandria shootings that found a way to blame Republicans.”
As CNN’s Jake Tapper pointed out in response to the NYT editorial: “even way back in Jan 2011 we knew that Loughlin’s obsession began 3 years before the Palin map.” Tapper made that same exact point back in 2011 when he worked for ABC.
Ben Dreyfuss, a senior editor with left-wing Mother Jones, called the editorial “stupid,” adding: “Palin didn’t make that loon shoot Gabby Giffords.”
“Unbelievable. The Times is still peddling this despicable lie,” said Wall Street Journal editor James Taranto. He added: “This is shockingly dishonest.”
This editorial remains consistent with the news reporting quality we have come to expect from the NYTimes.
As CNN’s Jake Tapper pointed out in response to the NYT editorial: “even way back in Jan 2011 we knew that Loughlin’s obsession began 3 years before the Palin map.” Tapper made that same exact point back in 2011 when he worked for ABC.
Ben Dreyfuss, a senior editor with left-wing Mother Jones, called the editorial “stupid,” adding: “Palin didn’t make that loon shoot Gabby Giffords.”
“Unbelievable. The Times is still peddling this despicable lie,” said Wall Street Journal editor James Taranto. He added: “This is shockingly dishonest.”
This editorial remains consistent with the news reporting quality we have come to expect from the NYTimes.
12
Yes, more gun controls laws... just like drug control laws fixed our drug problems, the gun control laws will keep guns away from people that want it. Looney Tunes on the Left never stop to amaze me.
1
If the American people feel threatened and frightened by what happened to the GOP house whip, they should take a step in the right direction and start supporting the banning of guns, especially the automatic rifles such as that used by the gunman from Illinois.
Perhaps they wouldn't feel so threatened if guns of all kinds were banned. This kind of violence will continue until the American citizens "demand" it stop.
Perhaps they wouldn't feel so threatened if guns of all kinds were banned. This kind of violence will continue until the American citizens "demand" it stop.
1
"Basically a killing field"
"He was hunting us"
How is what happened in Alexandria any different that what happens weekly in Chicago other than the fact these were Congresspeople?
"He was hunting us"
How is what happened in Alexandria any different that what happens weekly in Chicago other than the fact these were Congresspeople?
1
I wonder if the phrase, "Thank God we have really good health insurance" has been uttered at all here.
What a relief it must be to not have to worry about that on top of everything else.
What a relief it must be to not have to worry about that on top of everything else.
1
Apparently liberals shouldn't have access to firearms.
4
Give Mo Brooks a gun. Let the government pay for it. Let there even be a law that, like police officers, members of Congress have to carry them at all times outside of their homes. And then lets take away the security details from leaders like Mr. Scalise and let them all defend themselves as they apparently think all the rest of us should.
1
The NRA view: America was lucky that the nutcase who shot the Congressman was able to get a gun, transport it with ammo to a location where a group of legislators were gathered, and shoot the gun. America was unlucky that the shots were misdirected in this case.
Enough said, the NRA is a loon organization.
Enough said, the NRA is a loon organization.
The NRA and their employees in Congress foolishly believed that only right-wing zealots could be whipped up into a lethal frenzy. The Colorado Springs murderer who literally quoted a right-wing video scam as he went about his rampage and the shooting of Gabby Giffords brought only shrugs and more praise for the efficacy of firearms. Now, we're supposed to get all misty-eyed and put on phony "unity" demonstrations because the targets were Republicans? Hypocrisy, insanity, cruelty, stupidity . . . these are words we live by in this country. Bottom line, the Kremlin still controls our Executive Branch and probably enough of the legislative branch to protect its interests.
Arming the have-nots is a bad strategy
So very grateful to Capitol Police Officers David Bailey, an NCCU graduate, and Officer Crystal Griner for their sacrifice and service in providing excellent service to the Republican Congressmen.
I hope their excellent service helps to heal the racial divide in this country.
I hope their excellent service helps to heal the racial divide in this country.
1
Suddenly when the attack came from the Left directed at the far Right, we have a problem. When it was the far Right against the Left, it was mental illness and even in short me instances called justified (taking our guns away). I wonder what the Right are s now affraid of now? Those weak liberals are beginning to stand up. I do not condone the abhorrent violence, nor killings in any way. Let us focus on one major problem in our society and that is the over abundance of guns in the hands of people who should never be allowed near them. Following the call for more guns and freeing of concealed carry laws is just crazy
2
So you're still going with
"Giffords shooting was spurred on specifically by Palin"?
And you'll ignore EVERYTHING anyone found out about Jared for months after the shooting that debunked that claim, and still make it?
Ok.
Why not have a new section of the NY Times; not opinion; just fact-free lies for partisan idiocy like this.
Oh, that would be too much of your paper for just an insert if you filtered things that way?
Sure, I can see that.
"Giffords shooting was spurred on specifically by Palin"?
And you'll ignore EVERYTHING anyone found out about Jared for months after the shooting that debunked that claim, and still make it?
Ok.
Why not have a new section of the NY Times; not opinion; just fact-free lies for partisan idiocy like this.
Oh, that would be too much of your paper for just an insert if you filtered things that way?
Sure, I can see that.
7
Your article is right on target. When mass shootings take place, aside from the condolences, and outrage, all folks, of all political stripes, come together, as expected. Trouble is, all is soon forgotten, and the indiscriminate easy availability of guns continues, courtesy of the gun lobby and the N.R.A., and FULLY SUPPORTED by the republicans. And the weapons are being allowed just about everywhere, except in congress (and the White House), an irresponsible and hypocritical stance that must stop. The ongoing killings in our streets, day in and day out, are a disgrace, suggesting the United States is still immature, and unreasonable, in the way it handles conflict. President Trump's call for unity is an empty gesture, given his passionate support for the mayhem we are witnessing...by supporting the horror of a runaway gun lobby. Statistics do show some 100,000 shooting injuries, 'successfully' killing 33,000 fellow Americans (each year!). When the N.R.A.'s ridiculous pronouncement that what kills is not the gun but the guy behind the gun, they take us for idiots. We live in a violent society of our own making. What are we going to do about it? It's our choice, if there is the will. For now, we have a republican congress that excels in cowardice...and submission to the N.R.A. and its support for politician's perpetual re-election. This is not 'politics', politicking instead. and a national shame. We can do better; and we must, by speaking up.
Didn't I just read the NYT article in today's paper titled "Their Own Targeted, Republicans Want Looser Gun Laws, Not Stricter Ones."? This mentality will get more people killed, as we have more guns on the street than ever and the mass killings continue.
It was as recently as last August that candidate Trump was offering his wisdom on the campaign trail regarding the possibility that his supporters might employ 2nd Amendment Remedies to take care of the Hillary Clinton threat. The fish rots from the head.
2
"Was this attack evidence of how vicious American politics has become? Probably."
Hardly. The attack is evidence that deranged persons have access to guns, and can be inflamed by any number of triggers.
The Times piece by Yamiche Alcindor "Attack tests movement founded by Bernie Sanders" is a strange perversion of this so very evident fact to chastise Sanders. As if his pointing out the heartless failures of Congress to assist the middle class is an invocation to go on a killing spree? What nonsense!
What's going on at the NYT?
Hardly. The attack is evidence that deranged persons have access to guns, and can be inflamed by any number of triggers.
The Times piece by Yamiche Alcindor "Attack tests movement founded by Bernie Sanders" is a strange perversion of this so very evident fact to chastise Sanders. As if his pointing out the heartless failures of Congress to assist the middle class is an invocation to go on a killing spree? What nonsense!
What's going on at the NYT?
Thanks to the NRA, Republicans have made it easier for people with mental health problems to acquire guns. And thanks to the NRA, the assault weapons ban was lifted. You reap what you sow.
Our children deserve to grow up, period which did not happen for 20 of them in Sandy Hook.
1
Three hundred million people in a country overflowing with millions of high capacity, rapid fire weapons. Conspiracy wielding talk radio zealots, who's main job is to get you to pound the fist in your dashboard at the end of each hour, urging you to come back for more tomorrow. A multi billion dollar, politically entrenched firearms industry that has become almost solely dependent on fear and paranoia to drive sales. What could possibly go wrong?
2
It the tables were turned and a Democratic black congressman were shot by a Trump supporter, the nation would be in hysteria. Anti gun protestors, black lives matter, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, CNN, MSNBC would be providing 24 hour news coverage of the event and shocking news story.
Instead this news barely gets third or fourth billing , because it's a white Republican congressman shot by a Bernie Sander's supporter on the baseball diamond. A tragic fire in London, the Russia investigation and the special prosecutor's plans take priority in the news cycle.
LOL! Who says the media isn't as left leaning as the tower of Pisa?
Instead this news barely gets third or fourth billing , because it's a white Republican congressman shot by a Bernie Sander's supporter on the baseball diamond. A tragic fire in London, the Russia investigation and the special prosecutor's plans take priority in the news cycle.
LOL! Who says the media isn't as left leaning as the tower of Pisa?
5
Were it not for the fact that a politician was hit, this story would not even have been a Page 1 story. This is routine, this is America. It transcends ideology and it is not restricted by time. America is the most violent people on Earth, and more than the people of any other nation on Earth, Americans like to kill each other. The numbers don't lie.
1
My first thought, when I heard about the shooting, was the wish that nobody would be hurt. My second thought, when hearing about Rep. Scalise, was the sincere hope he would live, and then--wait for it--my last thought was "thank god he has health care coverage because he's going to need it".
Agree we need to tone down the rhetoric. I believe it should begin with the commander in chief apologizing for all of the inciteful comments he made throughout his campaign and with his continuing comments that destabilize our democratic institutions.
Failed politics, in one form or another, usually come with a price. In 1980 a bad actor from Hollywood is made our president, shots were fired soon thereafter, he being lucky that John Hinkley lacked the shooting skills to be more lethal. The story that his motive was to impress Jody Foster a very good actress is questionable however, because there is that possibility, his reasons were far more dire than we can ever be told.
this was undoubtedly a tragic event perpetrated by an imbalanced individual, who was no doubt influenced by the polarization and rhetoric of today's political environment. his actions should in no way be tolerated or condoned. however, as a left leaning independent who supports the 2nd ammendment, it is stayemets like these from the left that get under my skin:
"Mr. Hodgkinson, by definition, should not have had a gun, ..."
what "definition" would that be that he should not have owned a gun? that he voiced opposition to the current president? that he wasn't happy about the direction the country appears to be headed under his "leadership"? of course that he committed a crime, he shouldn't have had a weapon...but you don't know that until AFTER they have committed the crime! i too would like to seek ways to lower the gun violence in this country, but the only answer the left seems to want to push is taking away all guns! i cannot fathom what was meant by the statement above that "by definition" he should not have had a gun.
another reason the dems keep losing to the gop (and continue to lose my vote) is their obsession with attacking the 2nd ammendment. i am all about reducing violence, i am not not supportive of the idea that the only way to get there is to strip away our rights.
be for law and order, enforce EXISTING gun laws, put more police on the street, but please stop using every shooting as a justification to pass more restrictive laws just to feel good.
"Mr. Hodgkinson, by definition, should not have had a gun, ..."
what "definition" would that be that he should not have owned a gun? that he voiced opposition to the current president? that he wasn't happy about the direction the country appears to be headed under his "leadership"? of course that he committed a crime, he shouldn't have had a weapon...but you don't know that until AFTER they have committed the crime! i too would like to seek ways to lower the gun violence in this country, but the only answer the left seems to want to push is taking away all guns! i cannot fathom what was meant by the statement above that "by definition" he should not have had a gun.
another reason the dems keep losing to the gop (and continue to lose my vote) is their obsession with attacking the 2nd ammendment. i am all about reducing violence, i am not not supportive of the idea that the only way to get there is to strip away our rights.
be for law and order, enforce EXISTING gun laws, put more police on the street, but please stop using every shooting as a justification to pass more restrictive laws just to feel good.
1
Always extraordinary when you finally cede that your own rhetoric is fueling hate and violence in this country, but your solution isn't to address or stop the rhetoric, it is to..... ban liberties. Eliminating gun rights to solve gun violence is like eliminating the right to property ownership so that no one steals, or so no one can be stolen from. By your own logic, let's get rid of your freedom of speech since, you know, it's inciting people to kill.
3
The cause is obvious: Democrat hate speech, violent rhetoric from the left, and incendiary lies from Bernie Sanders, Warren, Maddox, CNN, NYT, MSNBC, etc are to blame.
4
What can you say? As gloria emerson said of the vietnam war" so much has been said,and it made not one been tbit of difference" same here
1
"Was this attack evidence of how vicious American politics has become? Probably."
Perfect example of how the media lives to pump up conflict and create all the drama it can.
And not a word on the "Sportsmen's Heritage and Recreational Enhancement Act,"
Perfect example of how the media lives to pump up conflict and create all the drama it can.
And not a word on the "Sportsmen's Heritage and Recreational Enhancement Act,"
This era in American politics is particularly volatile because the Administration and ruling Congress represent the minority and is practicing partisanship with a Vengeance. The majority is painfully aware of this and is now being attacked as "hateful" when the truth is there are hateful members on all sides of the fence - and all sides need to stop it. Add in fake news, 24-hour-day news, pundits, FB, Twitter, and a president who is unprepared for the job, is it really any wonder that America is being pushed to the ragged edge? Any wonder that the unstable members of our society might take things into their own hands in such a way that they are sure to be heard, through violence?
Yes, the Left lost, but the Right did not definitively win. Congress needs to acknowledge this by exhibiting the bipartisanship Ryan and Pelosi seemed to promote in the face of this tragedy. The election taught the Left that all of America needs to be represented in our government, and now the Right needs to acknowledge that lesson as well by governing fairly and for every citizen. Anything less negates the very foundation of America. And, finally, we all need to remember who we are, put down hurtful words and instruments of violence, and use the only acceptable political weapon we are blessed to have: the Vote.
Yes, the Left lost, but the Right did not definitively win. Congress needs to acknowledge this by exhibiting the bipartisanship Ryan and Pelosi seemed to promote in the face of this tragedy. The election taught the Left that all of America needs to be represented in our government, and now the Right needs to acknowledge that lesson as well by governing fairly and for every citizen. Anything less negates the very foundation of America. And, finally, we all need to remember who we are, put down hurtful words and instruments of violence, and use the only acceptable political weapon we are blessed to have: the Vote.
1
Violence can take many forms.
Violence by the gun is dramatic, immediate, and gets lots of play on CNN, and then there is violence accomplished by lethal politics and hateful legislation. Legislative violence may take longer to accomplish, but it has the advantage of being more long-lasting and destroying more lives.
Hodgkinson chose violence by the Gun
Scalise chose violence by Legislation
Representative Scalise
a Summary of his voting record:
OPPOSES - taxing businesses, consumer protection, funding education, environmental protection, financial sector regulation, gun control, humane immigration policy, labor rights and wages, LGBT rights, poverty amelioration, racial equality, increasing revenues, taxing the wealthy, a robust safety net, women's rights and supports big business, hawkish foreign policy, taxing the middle class, military spending, avoiding default, domestic surveillance.
Violence by the gun is dramatic, immediate, and gets lots of play on CNN, and then there is violence accomplished by lethal politics and hateful legislation. Legislative violence may take longer to accomplish, but it has the advantage of being more long-lasting and destroying more lives.
Hodgkinson chose violence by the Gun
Scalise chose violence by Legislation
Representative Scalise
a Summary of his voting record:
OPPOSES - taxing businesses, consumer protection, funding education, environmental protection, financial sector regulation, gun control, humane immigration policy, labor rights and wages, LGBT rights, poverty amelioration, racial equality, increasing revenues, taxing the wealthy, a robust safety net, women's rights and supports big business, hawkish foreign policy, taxing the middle class, military spending, avoiding default, domestic surveillance.
1
Here is another effect. I know two couples who cancelled travel plans to the US because of the heated rhetoric and risks to personal safety. Yes, horrific events can occur in any country, but heaven forbid they ever become part of an otherwise normal day in the life of a nation.
1
NRA'S Position on such matters is something along the lines of, if everyone had been carrying guns they would have been safer. The fact is that it could have made things far more lethal. Say that some in the dugout had had guns and had attempted to fire at the shooter. Their shots would have drawn attention to the dugout, potentially resulting in far more deaths among those hiding there who had no escape. What the shooter reportedly asked before the murderous spree was whether the politicians were GOP or Democrats. So long as shootings are aimed at people who could potentially be Democrats, there is instant, fierce objection to limiting guns. The tragic incident may be ominous, a horrible harbinger of more shootings to come aimed at politicians viewed as enemies. Will Congress finally enact some laws that will provide further safety for citizens? Or will they let GOP lives be at risk of further shootings?
America's politics have indeed turned lethal, but focusing on gun control and this incident or that involving Gabby Giffords conspicuously overlooks the larger "killing field" of American politics today. Most every one of those representatives frolicking on the ball field at America's pastime yesterday voted for a measure estimated to kick 24 million of their fellow Americans off health insurance, with estimates of additional preventable deaths ranging from 18,000 to 44,000 per year. Of course, they do not deserve death for their politics. Nothing legitimates political violence in a democracy. But they are sure dealing it out in shocking indifference to the humanity of those affected. Toning down the political rhetoric is all very fine and necessary. But the predicted effects of the proposed AHCA are not the least bit rhetorical for those on the receiving end. Those effects are, without exaggeration, matters of life and death. If we are to improve our politics by stepping back from heated rhetoric, we must also step back from ideology-driven indifference to care and concern for all our citizens.
1
Despite the the contentiousness and partisanship that infects America, there is a general consensus around at least one thing: the need for saner gun control measures of the sort that have reduced gun violence in the rest of the developed world.
It is the NRA and elected Republican officials that prevent this consensus from finding its expression in legislation.
It is the NRA and elected Republican officials that prevent this consensus from finding its expression in legislation.
1
"General consensus" similar to "popular vote." As in Hillary won the popular vote, but lost the election. "General consensus" among Northeastern Liberals and West Coast Leftists doesn't get legislation restricting a constitutional right passed. There is the rest of the country to consider. Perhaps if the stated goal of those advocating for "saner gun control measures that have reduced violence in the rest of the developed world" didn't involve disarming the American citizenry, there would be some movement legislatively. We know what the end-game of the left is vis-a-vis "saner gun control measures" and you will get none of it.
Gee, the politicians seem to have noticed something. I wonder why.
2
Also lethal: the Senate health care bill is expected to allow states to relax the Affordable Care Act rules on benefits. As a result, as many as 27 million Americans could face annual caps on their coverage, and 20 million could be hit with lifetime caps, according to the analysis by the Center for American Progress.
9
"We can all agree that we are blessed to be Americans"
I know some Americans who disagree. The blessings will come when Americans come to their senses and do the right thing. You have a beautiful and bountiful country chock full of smart people and loaded with resources, and yet you can't seem to figure out that your attitude on guns, among other things, is totally crippling your potential. Deal with the guns, race relations, health care, wicked political polarization, income disparity, etc. and that will indeed make America great for everyone. Otherwise you'll just be anxiously biding your time until the next catastrophe.
I know some Americans who disagree. The blessings will come when Americans come to their senses and do the right thing. You have a beautiful and bountiful country chock full of smart people and loaded with resources, and yet you can't seem to figure out that your attitude on guns, among other things, is totally crippling your potential. Deal with the guns, race relations, health care, wicked political polarization, income disparity, etc. and that will indeed make America great for everyone. Otherwise you'll just be anxiously biding your time until the next catastrophe.
12
Guns are simply the means. I personally don't understand the desire to own a gun and certainly not a semi automatic weapon. We are shaped by advertising, selling what we are supposed to want. The constant bombardment of news flash, generally a tag line out of context, that is skewed to reinforce a particular viewpoint allows us to react, feel good about and ourselves. We have lost the ability to see with a wider lens, to understand the world we live in. We have become hollow, losing respect for one another, especially those we disagree with, in part to make us feel good about ourselves. Toning down rhetoric might be a start, but until we can let go of the mentality of us vs them, and that one is better than another, or channel competitive natures for the good of all, the value of human life suffers, and if it were not guns, it would be something else.
2
Except it is, in fact, guns.
I guess some of the nation's most conservative elected officials didn't realize there was a problem with easy access to guns in America until someone pointed one at them. Hopefully, that will provide some laser-like clarity in future policy debates on the issue.
5
Well done, sir. At least some of those who refuse to understand the Second amendment have been reminded of it. As for laser-like clarity for money and the NRA, I have serious doubts. As someone else has pointed out in these comments, if the Sandy Hook massacre wouldn't move them to appropriate action, it's difficult to imagine clarity for the citizens they are sworn to protect. much less a few of their members or the police of the country, many of whom support restraint.
1
Wow, that's implying that the way to have more gun control is to shoot more Republicans?
I'm not criticizing your comment, because I think your correct since self-interest is the dominating concern of our congressmen.
I just question the morality of it.
I'm not criticizing your comment, because I think your correct since self-interest is the dominating concern of our congressmen.
I just question the morality of it.
We have twenty plus years of virulent hate speech from the likes of Rush and Coulter. There is no analogue on the Left. GOP politicians will of course attempt to create a false equivalency and claim that "both sides are to blame." That is their MO. But let's be clear; the enormous divide in our nation was not the fault of liberals. It was a well-planned and well-executed marketing campaign funded by right-wing think tanks -- and promoted by GOP candidates. They have used it to get elected, gain power and drive their agenda. Period.
16
Really? You think that Mo Brooks's proposal that Republicans wear loaded weapons whilst playing baseball is "an entirely reasonable reflex"? If it weren't so likely to cause harm to innocent bystanders, I'd love to see them try that.
6
One wonders why brave Congressman Mo wasn't armed already, and why he didn't run out and try to get Steve Scalise out of the line of fire.
1
The House is currently working on a bill making silencers and armor-piercing bullets legal. If this bill passes, all the body armor that police wear (including Capitol Police) will instantly become useless. Think about that.
Is there really a sizeable chunk of the electorate clamoring for silencers and body-piercing ammo? Could the House not think of other higher-priority items?
Is there really a sizeable chunk of the electorate clamoring for silencers and body-piercing ammo? Could the House not think of other higher-priority items?
1
In 2015 over 1,000 African American men were killed by police, in 2016 close to 250.
This year there have been more than 150 mass shootings.
Just recently 2 Americans sacrificed their lives to protect a woman from from a white supremacist. In court he declared that this was not an act of terrorism, rather a patriotic one.
Hate crimes are on the rise.
Where was the outpouring of compassion for these people and their families? Where is the moral outrage?
As awful as yesterday's shootings were, I can't help but feel that our representatives put more value on their own lives than on those they represent.
I wonder if Alex Jones is going to say they were just actors.
Maybe Megyn Kelly should ask him that.
This year there have been more than 150 mass shootings.
Just recently 2 Americans sacrificed their lives to protect a woman from from a white supremacist. In court he declared that this was not an act of terrorism, rather a patriotic one.
Hate crimes are on the rise.
Where was the outpouring of compassion for these people and their families? Where is the moral outrage?
As awful as yesterday's shootings were, I can't help but feel that our representatives put more value on their own lives than on those they represent.
I wonder if Alex Jones is going to say they were just actors.
Maybe Megyn Kelly should ask him that.
6
@Helen. "As awful as yesterday's shootings were, I can't help but feel that our representatives put more value on their own lives than on those they represent."
Absolutely right. I saw an interview with Republican Mark Sanford on Morning Joe. He was saying that there was alot of soul searching going on following yesterday's shooting.
Was there similar soul searching on the Republican side following Sandy Hook?
Absolutely right. I saw an interview with Republican Mark Sanford on Morning Joe. He was saying that there was alot of soul searching going on following yesterday's shooting.
Was there similar soul searching on the Republican side following Sandy Hook?
1
The mentally ill reside on all sides of the political spectrum. To the already deranged, any speech, any webpage, any media story can seem like a signal to act. Laws making guns readily available to those who have crossed the fine line to insanity only give them the means to carry out whatever misguided plan they hatch. Yes, a determined perpetrator will find a way to carry out his plan, with or without a gun. But, with having a gun so readily available would-be assailants need not think very long before they act.
These days we all live in an atmosphere of political tension and acrimony. Politicians on all sides have a responsibility to tone down their rhetoric, soften their message and do what they can to calm a discordant nation. Political parties and commentators on all sides must recognize the part they play, even unintentionally, in influencing those among us who are unbalanced and dangerous.
These days we all live in an atmosphere of political tension and acrimony. Politicians on all sides have a responsibility to tone down their rhetoric, soften their message and do what they can to calm a discordant nation. Political parties and commentators on all sides must recognize the part they play, even unintentionally, in influencing those among us who are unbalanced and dangerous.
1
I understand this is an editorial, but please provide some evidence beyond plain speculation -medical records, criminal history, eyewitness testimony - that the shooter was "deranged". Sane people participate in criminal activity of varying severity every day.
4
He had no job, was living in his van, was essentially solitary, and drove out from Ohio so that he could shoot up a peaceful baseball diamond on a nice summer day.
That's nuts.
That's nuts.
I'm a bit cynical about the essays on significance and needed reform emanating out of these horrific events, for after a few days we just go back to "normal" Will Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell do a 180 and call for bipartisan approaches to healthcare, tax reform, infrastructure and criminal justice reform. Will the Congress publicly rebuke Citizen's United and there billionaire donors? Will Trump apologize for his insults, his own advocacy for violence, a life of corruption, stiffing workers and contractors, and become a calming voice reason, a unifier not a deconstructive demagogue? Will Washington reflect on the abject inequality that has inexorably disheartened the souls left out of the party? I've felt for a long time that America has been creeping towards a violent revolution, this past election more than ever exposing the roiling anger. It's up the the leaders to recognize this and stop meeting in secret to give more tax breaks to their donors.
2
Oddly enough I remember Mr. Trump referring to the "second amendment" as being a way to express political outrage during the campaign. I think he bears at least some responsibility for the actions of some unbalanced people when they follow this path.
6
So then would Obama bear responsibility for violence in his term? He did say to bring a gun to knife fight. Or is that speech ok when you agree with it?
You are way smarter than that. Context means everything. I don't remember anyone ever feeling threatened by President Obama (except Osama Bin Laden of course).
The easy acceptance of violent memes against Mr Trump, "comedians" holding severed heads, "theater" in NYC depicting his murder, would never have been acceptable with Mr Obama. Democrats that don't like Mr Trump and his policies simply need to win back the House and Senate in 2018, and the presidency in 2020. This task has nothing to do with money, Mrs Clinton couldn't get it done with $1 billion spent. It has to do with policies and getting voters mobilized.
4
Another preventable American tragedy. Even with "the good guys with guns" present, there was a mass shooting with a Congressman in critical condition. We have to stop the Dodge City mentality and realize that "law and order" requires less access to guns, especially to angry, unstable males, not more as most Republicans have been suggesting and actively promoting. We are averaging almost a "gun massacre" per day according a published report. We need, as the nation's police chiefs always recommend, to let them be the armed good guys who "serve and protect" us. But first, we need Republicans Congressmen finally to look hard in the mirror and realize that they, too, need to serve and protect us by passing the sensible gun regulation that the citizens of the nation overwhelming want. Perhaps, they will finally now do that knowing "the life you save me be your own."
3
The indignation of the Republicans leave me cold. They have orchestrated a steady drum beat of hate on Fox News for over 20 years now, demonizing liberals and anyone else that doesn't fall into their narrow mind-set.
I have always believed that zealots of both sides are more alike than not. The details may differ, but the general mindset toward extremism is exactly the same. The extremists on the left did the Democrats no favors in the last election and handed Trump his victory.
I have always believed that zealots of both sides are more alike than not. The details may differ, but the general mindset toward extremism is exactly the same. The extremists on the left did the Democrats no favors in the last election and handed Trump his victory.
5
This is the dark side of the American Dream. Here is opportunity for the taking, where one can go from rags to riches through ambition, hard work and competitiveness. The fantasy is that this can be achieved alone, with neither legacy, privilege or community. Sure this has worked for a few. But, it creates a society where everyone is a competitor and where there is no sense of belonging or obligation to a larger whole. Where the losers don't deserve a living wage and thus, to live at all. So, we regard each other with suspicion and our personal arsenals grow ever larger. We forget that, United We Stand.The American Nightmare.
Here are some estimates from the bradycampaign.org:
"114,994 people in America are shot in murders, assaults, suicides & suicide attempts, unintentional shootings, or by police intervention.>
33,880 people die from gun violence
11,564 people are murdered
21,037 people kill themselves
544 people are killed unintentionally
468 are killed by police intervention
267 die but intent is not known
81,114 people survive gun injuries:
60,041 people are injured in an attack
3,700 people survive a suicide attempt
16,428 people are shot unintentionally
947 people are shot by police intervention
Millions of guns are sold every year in “no questions asked” transactions. Experts estimate that 40 percent of guns sold in America are done so without a Brady background check. Take action with our Finish the Job campaign now."
With so many deaths in the US from too many guns on the street in the hands of people who shouldn't have them, there is poetic justice in the random killing of politicians who oppose gun controls.
"114,994 people in America are shot in murders, assaults, suicides & suicide attempts, unintentional shootings, or by police intervention.>
33,880 people die from gun violence
11,564 people are murdered
21,037 people kill themselves
544 people are killed unintentionally
468 are killed by police intervention
267 die but intent is not known
81,114 people survive gun injuries:
60,041 people are injured in an attack
3,700 people survive a suicide attempt
16,428 people are shot unintentionally
947 people are shot by police intervention
Millions of guns are sold every year in “no questions asked” transactions. Experts estimate that 40 percent of guns sold in America are done so without a Brady background check. Take action with our Finish the Job campaign now."
With so many deaths in the US from too many guns on the street in the hands of people who shouldn't have them, there is poetic justice in the random killing of politicians who oppose gun controls.
1
Reporting of the Giffords shooting showed that no one could find a link to political incitement. The map published by the Palin supporters (so similar to maps in prior years by both parties) had NO apparent linkage to Loughner's shootings. There is not even any evidence that Loughner had seen that map. Dislike of Palin is no justification for journalistic malpractice as in this editorial statement.
2
Lets turn the conversation to guns. Dont examine the nonstop never Trump dialogue among the media and the left and the Democratic wing of Congress. Let see what weapons are being used by the 'deranged': box cutters, fertilizer, trucks and cars, knives, IEDs. No, lets not look at the root cause, lets focus on our favorite agenda, gun control.
1
The items you mention must be used face to face, or at least within arm's length. Guns kill at most any distance....you do not even have to be looking at your victims. But then, shooters prefer not to see who they are shooting at up close, right?
Until it becomes impossible for rich donors to buy their congresspeople, this will continue.
The proliferation of guns in our culture has more to do with money than anything else.
The proliferation of guns in our culture has more to do with money than anything else.
3
"they would probably kill or wound not the assailant but another innocent bystander, as studies have repeatedly shown."
To the chagrin of the NY Times' editorial board and many of its readers, sometimes the good guys do win:
http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/macomb/2017/02/01/rosevil...
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/detroit-security-guards-fatal-shootin...
http://www.wxyz.com/news/police-91-year-old-shoots-at-attempted-robbery-...
All working class folks living in the Detroit metro area dealing with the reality of their circumstances. This is something the NY Times editorial board and its OP-ED writers do not and cannot understand. Enforce gun control laws but don't take them (guns) away from the folks trying to survive in neighborhoods they cannot afford to leave.
To the chagrin of the NY Times' editorial board and many of its readers, sometimes the good guys do win:
http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/macomb/2017/02/01/rosevil...
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/detroit-security-guards-fatal-shootin...
http://www.wxyz.com/news/police-91-year-old-shoots-at-attempted-robbery-...
All working class folks living in the Detroit metro area dealing with the reality of their circumstances. This is something the NY Times editorial board and its OP-ED writers do not and cannot understand. Enforce gun control laws but don't take them (guns) away from the folks trying to survive in neighborhoods they cannot afford to leave.
2
A year ago Rand Paul tweeted that the 2nd amendment was there so we could shoot "our government", not deer. Trump said maybe "2nd amendment people" could keep Hillary from appointing judges. Trump encouraged violence at his rallies. We've all seen it with our own eyes.
Yes, there are some people on the fringes of the left that promote and act out in violence. There are no officials that do say the outrageously hateful things the republicans do.
Yes, there are some people on the fringes of the left that promote and act out in violence. There are no officials that do say the outrageously hateful things the republicans do.
3
He specifically said a tyrannical government, and it certainly isn't an original thought, but was one of the reasons for the 2nd Amendment in the first place. Since our government is not tyrannical, nor are some reps practicing for a bipartisan charity event, it's not just a stretch, but plain dishonest to connect them.
1
Well over half a million Americans have died of gunshots in the USA since 9/11. That's more Americans shot at home than those killed in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, 9/11 and the post 9/11 wars combined.
Is America what the advertisers, media including Hollywood and politicians say it is or is it something else?
Who let's their kids watch violent TV or movies or video games or have unrestricted use of social media these days?
Is America what the advertisers, media including Hollywood and politicians say it is or is it something else?
Who let's their kids watch violent TV or movies or video games or have unrestricted use of social media these days?
1
I graduated from grade school on June 6th 1968. The day Robert Kennedy died from an assasin's bullet. I began to painfully learn to fear an assasin's bullet targeted to our leaders in 4th grade.
As a Grandfather in 2017, I fear innocent children walking to school or even sitting in the safety of their home being ravegedly gunned down.
Have we learned anything over the many years since my innocent youth? I fear not.
I do recal the words expressed by RFK that are as meaningful and heartfelt today as they were on April 5th 1968 the day after Martin Luther King was silenced by a bullet.
Sixty days later RFK would be silenced, but his words reminds us that we as a country are responsible:
"When you teach a man to hate and fear his brother, when you teach that he is a lesser man because of his color or his beliefs or the policies he pursues, when you teach that those who differ from you threaten your freedom or your job or your family, then you also learn to confront others not as fellow citizens but as enemies - to be met not with cooperation but with conquest, to be subjugated and mastered."
Mr. President, Members of the House, Members of the Senate, Justices of the Supreme Court, talk radio and tv news outlets, my fellow citizens, let us come together and end the lies and deceit that spread hatred and create enemies of our fellow countrymen. Let us dedicate our lives to heal the wounds of violence and anger and build a more just society for us all.
As a Grandfather in 2017, I fear innocent children walking to school or even sitting in the safety of their home being ravegedly gunned down.
Have we learned anything over the many years since my innocent youth? I fear not.
I do recal the words expressed by RFK that are as meaningful and heartfelt today as they were on April 5th 1968 the day after Martin Luther King was silenced by a bullet.
Sixty days later RFK would be silenced, but his words reminds us that we as a country are responsible:
"When you teach a man to hate and fear his brother, when you teach that he is a lesser man because of his color or his beliefs or the policies he pursues, when you teach that those who differ from you threaten your freedom or your job or your family, then you also learn to confront others not as fellow citizens but as enemies - to be met not with cooperation but with conquest, to be subjugated and mastered."
Mr. President, Members of the House, Members of the Senate, Justices of the Supreme Court, talk radio and tv news outlets, my fellow citizens, let us come together and end the lies and deceit that spread hatred and create enemies of our fellow countrymen. Let us dedicate our lives to heal the wounds of violence and anger and build a more just society for us all.
1
When there is a terrorist attack or a mass shooting, I shut down. I don't read about it in the NYT or any other paper and I turn the TV off until the new coverage has past. I just go on with my life, trying my best to do my best, as I think we all should.
That is not to say I am indifferent. I am not. It's just that I believe that if and when these tragic events do end the reasons for that will be many and complex and reflect a dramatic change in our society and the world. And, I have come to believe that all the news coverage is, at best, having no effect on what is happening and at worst it is encouraging the perpetrators.
That is not to say I am indifferent. I am not. It's just that I believe that if and when these tragic events do end the reasons for that will be many and complex and reflect a dramatic change in our society and the world. And, I have come to believe that all the news coverage is, at best, having no effect on what is happening and at worst it is encouraging the perpetrators.
1
I agree, America's politics have become lethal, thanks to the Democrats.
4
Your attitude is part of the problem. This is not something that can be blamed on one side or the other. The toxic nature of our politics extends to both parties.
2
I beg to differ. Had this been a right winger shooting some Democrats, I am certainly that you and the NYT and most of the other comments would be blaming it solidly on the right.
The assertion that Jared Loughner's attack of Rep. Gabby Giffords was the product of "political incitement" from Sarah Palin (or anyone else) does not coordinate with the facts of that case. According to ABC News, as well as other news outlets, Loughner's particular interest in Giffords predated the attack by at least three years. Those who were aware of Loughner's political conceptions characterized them as favoring Democratic political positions, and he was not viewed as amenable to Republican political exhortations. In fact, there is no evidence that Loughner had any specific or particular interest in Sarah Palin's opinion. Yet, more than five years after this information was made known, the New York Times states that the link between Loughner's attack and Palin's political incitement "was clear"
So why would the New York Times endorse a characterization of events it knows to be false? My guess is that the New York Times is more interested in providing political cover to those whose political rhetoric have promoted the idea that Republicans are the party of evil ideas that need to be opposed by any means necessary.
Back in 1881, New York City (and national) newspapers promoted the idea that President James Garfield was destroying the Republican Party and the country. They implied that he had to be stopped. After he was shot in July, 1881, the papers bent over backwards trying to suggest that they had nothing to do with the attack on the President.
Sounds familiar.
So why would the New York Times endorse a characterization of events it knows to be false? My guess is that the New York Times is more interested in providing political cover to those whose political rhetoric have promoted the idea that Republicans are the party of evil ideas that need to be opposed by any means necessary.
Back in 1881, New York City (and national) newspapers promoted the idea that President James Garfield was destroying the Republican Party and the country. They implied that he had to be stopped. After he was shot in July, 1881, the papers bent over backwards trying to suggest that they had nothing to do with the attack on the President.
Sounds familiar.
7
The NY Times has run a correction on Giffords shooting and Palin map