After the terrorist attack Donald Trump was true to form as he attacked the mayor of London for trying to bring some sense of order back to his suffering city. It was an obvious tactic on Trump's part to settle political scores for something he said during the campaign and an attempt to rile up his base back home. After all Trump makes political hay but keeping his base at an angry boil. The suffering of individuals in this tragedy seemed to mean nothing to him but a political opportunity. It is situations like this sadden me the most as our country as exemplified by Trump loses its heart and moral direction.
Trump is just too quick to use any terror attack to bolster his case, howsoever crudely, for his notorious travel ban. I wish he would have jumped on the Monday shooting and killing of five in Florida as an opportunity to condemn the ease of accessibility to guns in the US. Mr. Neumann, the gunman, was armed with a semiautomatic handgun and a large hunting knife. Trump’s silence on the Florida shooting speaks volume about his blindness to any other killing unless it is related to terrorism and provides an opportunity to trumpet his myopic and misguided travel ban policies. If Trump was really concerned about lost lives and security of the US citizens as he often claims, he would have tweeted with same alacrity about Florida shooting as he did on the London Bridge killings.
Muslims all walks of life, around the world must be having considerable moral dilemmas about the current state of affairs of Islam.
It's the time for them to reclaim the basic concepts of Islam and reframe them in a broader context. It must mean consensus of all citizens leading to participatory and accountable governance.
The broad agreement must be understood in its complete spiritual meaning as the struggle for peace and justice for universal application.
And the notion of all Muslims together must be refined so it becomes something more than a mere abstraction. Anwar Ibrahim has argued that it is not merely the community of all those who profess to be Muslims; rather, it is a moral conception of how Muslims should become a community in relation to each other, other communities and the natural world.
As learned Ziauddin Sardar elegantly argues "which means it incorporates not just the Muslims, but justice seeking and oppressed people everywhere. In a sense, the movement towards synthesis is an advance towards the primary meaning and message of Islam as a moral and ethical way of looking and shaping the world, as a domain of peaceful civic culture, a participatory endeavour, and a holistic mode of knowing, being and doing".
It's the time for them to reclaim the basic concepts of Islam and reframe them in a broader context. It must mean consensus of all citizens leading to participatory and accountable governance.
The broad agreement must be understood in its complete spiritual meaning as the struggle for peace and justice for universal application.
And the notion of all Muslims together must be refined so it becomes something more than a mere abstraction. Anwar Ibrahim has argued that it is not merely the community of all those who profess to be Muslims; rather, it is a moral conception of how Muslims should become a community in relation to each other, other communities and the natural world.
As learned Ziauddin Sardar elegantly argues "which means it incorporates not just the Muslims, but justice seeking and oppressed people everywhere. In a sense, the movement towards synthesis is an advance towards the primary meaning and message of Islam as a moral and ethical way of looking and shaping the world, as a domain of peaceful civic culture, a participatory endeavour, and a holistic mode of knowing, being and doing".
2
Americans like to sensationalise and scare everybody with your overblown talk of terrorists destroying the world as we know it and forcing us all to cower in our homes like frightened little children.
The rest of us just make a cup of tea and bloody well get on with it.
The rest of us just make a cup of tea and bloody well get on with it.
6
Nobody knows what to do about this terrorism situation. Nobody. But there was a time when we did know what to do. That was in early 2003 when we knew what we always know to be true -- that no one should ever start an unnecessary war, for ethical & rational reasons. A no-brainer. But we did it. Now we're reaping the inevitable, seemingly endless & terrible repercussions of that.
And nobody knows what to do. Except to learn a lesson. But I doubt we'll even do that.
And nobody knows what to do. Except to learn a lesson. But I doubt we'll even do that.
7
So sad what happened in London, but why do 5 deaths in one shooting not bring the same terror and desire to correct a major problem over here. I have absolutely no fear of being killed in a "terrorist" attack but worry every day about being killed in just a plain old American shoot out.
I live in a country run by crazy insane people.
I live in a country run by crazy insane people.
7
This is GREAT Britain we talking about: Zeppelin attacks in WWI, the Battle of Britain, IRA attacks. Its hard to identify a more stoic and resolute society people.
Its an embarrassment that our president would criticize the mayor of London. the mayor was attempting to prevent hysteria.
In fact two events made this possible.
Home secretary May encouraged cuts to homeland defense. A very conservative smaller government ideology.
The government was informed of the activities on one of the attackers, he was even on a reality TV show.
Trump needs the hysteria and fear to pass his Muslim ban, even though it would not have prevented this attack.
trump first proposed the ban because an attack was imminent. Yeah sure.
Further more in England they use knives, Why? When an attack does happen here it will not be with knives. Five Americans died in a mass shooting today. Is that not terrorism? Is donnie going to tweet about that?
djt is by far the most ignorant man ever to hold the White House and those who continue to support him undermine the rational for democracy, that is that a majority of the people will make rational choices. The longer you defend him the stupider you will look, now and for posterity.
Its an embarrassment that our president would criticize the mayor of London. the mayor was attempting to prevent hysteria.
In fact two events made this possible.
Home secretary May encouraged cuts to homeland defense. A very conservative smaller government ideology.
The government was informed of the activities on one of the attackers, he was even on a reality TV show.
Trump needs the hysteria and fear to pass his Muslim ban, even though it would not have prevented this attack.
trump first proposed the ban because an attack was imminent. Yeah sure.
Further more in England they use knives, Why? When an attack does happen here it will not be with knives. Five Americans died in a mass shooting today. Is that not terrorism? Is donnie going to tweet about that?
djt is by far the most ignorant man ever to hold the White House and those who continue to support him undermine the rational for democracy, that is that a majority of the people will make rational choices. The longer you defend him the stupider you will look, now and for posterity.
7
Enough is enough. Tsk, tsk. To bed without supper for you.
Isn't working.
Isn't working.
1
Terrorist organization attract the disenfranchised who are filled with anger and hate. It then proceeds to turn them into psychopathic killers who strike when and where they wish. In the end there is no defense against that. This is the modern world. This type of behavior is never going away.
1
Why can't they all be just like the Saudis??? You know, the good muslims. The rich ones, that buy ridiculously expensive, unnecessary weapons and pay huuuuuuge " commissions " . Right, Donald??????
Islamic terrorists kill seven and wound many more and the NYT turns this into a criticism of Trump? You should rename your newspaper "One Note Times," as it seems that every day you find yet another reason to tell your readers how much you dislike our President. President Trump tries to enforce existing immigration laws and you have a problem with that? The President suggests a temporary travel ban from terror-prone countries and you think he's mean-spirited? What in the world is wrong with you?
3
To our knuckle headline chief: Stop sending stoopid tweets, and go back to sleep. It's the thing you do best. Just shut up, please. Responsible leaders are trying to do their jobs, unlike you.
Just like a coward would do. After a terrorist atrocity, Trump can't help himself but to gang up and falsely attack the Mayor of London - the capital of our closest ally! It is not enough for that the Mayor is dealing with a tragic incident in his own city, to then have to be attacked by some idiot American POTUS on his back. Whose side is Trump on???
What is wrong with Trump? Does he hate everyone?
What is wrong with Trump? Does he hate everyone?
7
Britain's PM May says that there's too much tolerance for extremism in her country. She says, enough is enough; things got to change.
Since she is the PM, well, here's something that she can do to set the ball rolling. News says that one of the terrorists in the latest tragedy was a Mr Butt from Pakistan. He was a naturalized UK citizen. Butt was also on the police radar. There's your cue, Mrs May: Start reviewing visa and immigration paperwork of guys like him. People who can be driven to such heinuous acts in life, I would argue, would hardly hesitate from committing a mere misstatement on paper. Start checking paperwork of people like Butt immediately and throw out all those who have lied or made incorrect statements. This one act alone, I'd venture say, would rid the country of thousands of potentially risky persons. It certainly would be a much cheaper way of taking care of them than tracking their every move day after day.
Since she is the PM, well, here's something that she can do to set the ball rolling. News says that one of the terrorists in the latest tragedy was a Mr Butt from Pakistan. He was a naturalized UK citizen. Butt was also on the police radar. There's your cue, Mrs May: Start reviewing visa and immigration paperwork of guys like him. People who can be driven to such heinuous acts in life, I would argue, would hardly hesitate from committing a mere misstatement on paper. Start checking paperwork of people like Butt immediately and throw out all those who have lied or made incorrect statements. This one act alone, I'd venture say, would rid the country of thousands of potentially risky persons. It certainly would be a much cheaper way of taking care of them than tracking their every move day after day.
Let's be realistic. If Donald just happened to be an average citizen, his behavior would be very alarming. The family would be looking at brochures for assisting living facilities, researching the cost of in-home " help" and looking at ads for incontinence underwear. However, he has obviously been surrounded by enablers for years. Now, he has a huuuuge staff full of them, at taxpayer expense. Thanks, Trump fans. Your willful ignorance and stubbornness has set this country back decades. And he's just getting started. May YOU reap, what he sows.
8
The President could learn a thing or two from London Mayor Khan,not least a sense of dignity which befits a role in high public office.
5
Reading these comments comparing the British response vs. that of President Trump shows how out of touch people are. For one, the UK did in fact "build a wall" and made France pay for it. The intent was to stop illegal immigration to the UK.
Additionally, those claiming that this has not been politicized in Britain fail to realize that the opposition has already suggested that PM May resign over her austerity cuts.
Countries are struggling with how to deal with this globally and there is no easy answer.
Constantly comparing and disparaging each other will get us no where.
Sure the US is not in an ideal position, but its a lesson to remember that some of the things said by President Trump have actually been put in place by other countries (e.g. the British wall in France).
Additionally, those claiming that this has not been politicized in Britain fail to realize that the opposition has already suggested that PM May resign over her austerity cuts.
Countries are struggling with how to deal with this globally and there is no easy answer.
Constantly comparing and disparaging each other will get us no where.
Sure the US is not in an ideal position, but its a lesson to remember that some of the things said by President Trump have actually been put in place by other countries (e.g. the British wall in France).
1
She will not win. If the English people were allowed to vote again on Brexit, I believe they would approve staying the n the EU.
In America, when we have gun massacres (which have killed far more people in the last decade than terrorist attacks), Trump and the Right do not bring out their Fear Banner. They do not scream for gun bans, or any vetting, let alone, extreme vetting of gun owners. They don't really care about people getting killed or maimed with gun violence or with terrorism. They only care about their racist political agenda, and using fear to gain votes and power. There are intelligent, thoughtful ways to deal with both terrorism and gun violence, but the Trump administration is neither intelligent nor thoughtful. God help us all.
8
"...as a former prime minister, Harold Wilson, once famously noted, a week is a long time in politics...
Or - as a former prime minister, Neville Chamberlain, once famously noted...
"...We should seek by all means in our power to avoid war, by analyzing possible causes, by trying to remove them, by discussion in a spirit of collaboration and good will...
We all know how that turned out...
Or - as a former prime minister, Neville Chamberlain, once famously noted...
"...We should seek by all means in our power to avoid war, by analyzing possible causes, by trying to remove them, by discussion in a spirit of collaboration and good will...
We all know how that turned out...
3
The media makes believe it is not squeezing every violent religious criminal incident for all it's worth in viewership, but they are.
3
I have some advice for the "President". (Quotation marks because he got fewer votes than his opponent).
Not, of course, that he ever listens to advice. But, let's proceed:
1) Instead of dissing the Mayor of London, perhaps he could turn his attention to how many people were killed, maimed and wounded by guns in the US on Saturday. He can even include deaths and wounds by knives and yes, even trucks. I can assure him it's many more than were killed in the heart of the British capital.
2) If fatalities and wounds bore him (so many things do), perhaps he can turn his attention to the 23 or so million people who will lose their health care in his "new and improved" health care plan? You know, the people to whom he promised better coverage.
3) Health care too complicated? OK. Perhaps he could start looking for the missing $2 trillion in the one-page budget. Oops. That $2 trillion was counted twice. Surely $4 trillion could take up a few minutes of his time.
Probably not.
Not, of course, that he ever listens to advice. But, let's proceed:
1) Instead of dissing the Mayor of London, perhaps he could turn his attention to how many people were killed, maimed and wounded by guns in the US on Saturday. He can even include deaths and wounds by knives and yes, even trucks. I can assure him it's many more than were killed in the heart of the British capital.
2) If fatalities and wounds bore him (so many things do), perhaps he can turn his attention to the 23 or so million people who will lose their health care in his "new and improved" health care plan? You know, the people to whom he promised better coverage.
3) Health care too complicated? OK. Perhaps he could start looking for the missing $2 trillion in the one-page budget. Oops. That $2 trillion was counted twice. Surely $4 trillion could take up a few minutes of his time.
Probably not.
5
Three days ago, Britain loses seven in London. They are properly horrified and pledge to do more to combat such extremism. Today, America loses five in Orlando. We call it 'Monday'.
5
You are equating two events which are not the same in cause or their liability to cause mass panic and copycat attacks. The "seven" lost also include the many grievously injured, and follow many similar events connected ideologically not to mention 9/11. No one willing subjects himself to the kind of risk that occurred in London. Orlando is criminal activity which occurs in the context of the society people have built in the U.S. and voted for. There is always good with bad, but no one bargains for the London atrocities.The British and American peoples ultimately will stand up and fight it as they did previous enemies of their civilization.
4
I was actually referring to the weary ubiquity of gun violence in America. I should have made that more clear. I don't mean to minimize the tragedy in either event. However, if the five who died today in America were really treated as the epidemic it is by my fellow Americans, it wouldn't be happening on a daily basis. At some point, expressing anger and regret just doesn't cut it anymore.
2
But that's not the issue here Phil, sorry. I appreciate that you said you intended no callousness.
Where is Harold Wilson now that we need him. Remember, he abruptly resigned as PM as soon as he turned 60. I wonder if Donald knows....
1
The Times fails to realize that a government's first responsibility is to protect its people. Britain has failed. The Trojan Horse of liberal thinking has allowed 30,000 jihadist on its shores. Where this is going is enhanced levels of surveillance, more intrusive monitoring of its population, spying, more cameras, and so forth. In short, further loss of freedoms. In this regard, the terrorists have won.
What the Times underestimates is, if this cancer metastasizes on our shores, the American people and its government will not sit idly by like sheep. Our govt will re-institute data collection, start domestic spying, bring drones on shore... use your imagination. Cities and towns will start placing cameras on every street and public area, like Britain. Americans will arm.The national right to carry will be a reality. When that happens, they will have won here too.
As much as I don't like it, we should take action now with a travel ban, enhanced vetting, and enforcement of existing immigration laws. We're looking at a pay me now or pay me later situation. I prefer to prepay.
What the Times underestimates is, if this cancer metastasizes on our shores, the American people and its government will not sit idly by like sheep. Our govt will re-institute data collection, start domestic spying, bring drones on shore... use your imagination. Cities and towns will start placing cameras on every street and public area, like Britain. Americans will arm.The national right to carry will be a reality. When that happens, they will have won here too.
As much as I don't like it, we should take action now with a travel ban, enhanced vetting, and enforcement of existing immigration laws. We're looking at a pay me now or pay me later situation. I prefer to prepay.
6
New social policies required to old problems. Gut feeling tells me that one of the websites in this web search will give western world a new solution to terrorist problem.
Do a web search: links between terrorism and drug addiction
Do a web search: links between terrorism and drug addiction
USA and Britain just seems to be going round in circles with this issue. Time to take a new path and look at social problems in society. I would really like someone to have the guts to investigate if there are links between all types of terrorist attacks and drug taking.
2
The only "tolerance of extremism" in Britain is its refusal to pronounce Iran and Saudi Arabia as the funders and fomenters of Totalitarian Islam.
Terrorism & extremism are tactics in a war being waged by the two centers of Islamic Totalitarianism. Without declaring these two purveyors of death and destruction as such, without declaring war against them, Britain will never be able to fight these enemies of peace and the rule of law.
And sadly, neither will the US. American leaders, all the way back to Jimmy Carter, have pointedly refused to call out either Iran or Saudi Arabia as the blood-soaked, death-worshipping barbaric tribes that they have shown themselves to be.
Terrorism & extremism are tactics in a war being waged by the two centers of Islamic Totalitarianism. Without declaring these two purveyors of death and destruction as such, without declaring war against them, Britain will never be able to fight these enemies of peace and the rule of law.
And sadly, neither will the US. American leaders, all the way back to Jimmy Carter, have pointedly refused to call out either Iran or Saudi Arabia as the blood-soaked, death-worshipping barbaric tribes that they have shown themselves to be.
5
Every time you think trump couldn't possibly embassass the American people any further, he finds a way.
2
While generally you avoid to a fastidious extreme referring to Islamist terrorism by that name - for example here you do it only indirectly, by and in the wake of quoting Theresa May - you show no such punctiliousness when warning that draconian measures could include "locking up Muslims".
Why didn't you say locking up "terrorists", your favourite word to describe the enemy?
Therein lies both your logical inconsistency and a certain abject quality.
Why didn't you say locking up "terrorists", your favourite word to describe the enemy?
Therein lies both your logical inconsistency and a certain abject quality.
6
NYT is printing some of my comments in reverse order to submission. Earlier, I clarified I meant suspected terrorists. But my point was and remains, don't use the term terrorist sans the Islamist label and then say draconian measures might including "locking up Muslims". Either use the religious modifier, or don't, otherwise the editors are liable to being viewed as abject and I'd add, parti pris.
Regarding the terror attacks in the U.K., one of Mr. Trump's statements was "Do you notice we are not having a gun debate right now? That's because they used knives and a truck!"
Indeed, if they had used guns there would have been a considerably higher death and injury toll. Fortunately, guns are not as easily available in Europe and most enlightened countries as they are in the U.S.
In a similar attack in this country, the murderers could easily have purchased all the rapid firing guns needed even if they were deemed mentally unstable.
The gun debate will not and cannot go away and terror attacks whether domestic or ISIS inspired will not go away either.
Indeed, if they had used guns there would have been a considerably higher death and injury toll. Fortunately, guns are not as easily available in Europe and most enlightened countries as they are in the U.S.
In a similar attack in this country, the murderers could easily have purchased all the rapid firing guns needed even if they were deemed mentally unstable.
The gun debate will not and cannot go away and terror attacks whether domestic or ISIS inspired will not go away either.
6
You cannot be serious?
1
There is a black hole in these discussions. As terrorists move to low tech attacks, there is no consideration that the targeted populace might be better off if they could effectively fight back. This is inconceivable to the doyens of the Times and the millenially politically correct. One might engage them. Charging in with a knife - maybe they could be stopped before police arrive?
In the US (in 45 states - not NY city), there is the option for using firearms. Horrors, Times Boards - but you can sit there with tapas and locavore piece of pork belly - and get cut up. One can fret that maybe an innocent would be shot by accident (Oh, the UK police did that). In San Bernadino and Orlando, tens of folks hid and died. Would you rather have the ability to resist rather than dying clutching the toilet (hint - don't run into the toilet)?
Mayor D, Ex-Mayor B, Mario, Diane, Chuck, Barbara B, Nancy, etc. - may feel that waiting for help is the way to go. Having better notification after the incident is a good plan. Hey, only a few died - so that's good!
Now if you do decided to be able to fight, you do have the responsibility to train up a bit. Rampages have been stopped by armed civilians - which the Times ignores. Millions of folks have permits (and the Times mentions a minscule crime rate among them as evidence that the system doesn't work). It is basically a cowardly world view to ignore this. We are told to run, hide, fight - but with what - your cell phone of ninja death?
In the US (in 45 states - not NY city), there is the option for using firearms. Horrors, Times Boards - but you can sit there with tapas and locavore piece of pork belly - and get cut up. One can fret that maybe an innocent would be shot by accident (Oh, the UK police did that). In San Bernadino and Orlando, tens of folks hid and died. Would you rather have the ability to resist rather than dying clutching the toilet (hint - don't run into the toilet)?
Mayor D, Ex-Mayor B, Mario, Diane, Chuck, Barbara B, Nancy, etc. - may feel that waiting for help is the way to go. Having better notification after the incident is a good plan. Hey, only a few died - so that's good!
Now if you do decided to be able to fight, you do have the responsibility to train up a bit. Rampages have been stopped by armed civilians - which the Times ignores. Millions of folks have permits (and the Times mentions a minscule crime rate among them as evidence that the system doesn't work). It is basically a cowardly world view to ignore this. We are told to run, hide, fight - but with what - your cell phone of ninja death?
8
June 5, 2017
When is it enough for the divine forces that are weave its spiritual living drama on earth and of course for most families and religious traditions? Heavenly grace is taught; and then we have secular humanistic offerings – so do the tears for violence influence the these traditions and make our world tolerable, forbidding, and just? Do the parents of martyrs gain higher access to all eternal bliss or do they suffer with their deaths of brothers, sisters, parents, etc. ? Do those killed in the paths for blooding gain the good compassion and guidance to tolerating the Earth’s humanity and all of its contestations in the name of what authority that historically fails to desist in what is never enough – and for no real reason for human suffering but the wild irrationality of evil (‘s.)
Jja Manhattan, N.Y.
When is it enough for the divine forces that are weave its spiritual living drama on earth and of course for most families and religious traditions? Heavenly grace is taught; and then we have secular humanistic offerings – so do the tears for violence influence the these traditions and make our world tolerable, forbidding, and just? Do the parents of martyrs gain higher access to all eternal bliss or do they suffer with their deaths of brothers, sisters, parents, etc. ? Do those killed in the paths for blooding gain the good compassion and guidance to tolerating the Earth’s humanity and all of its contestations in the name of what authority that historically fails to desist in what is never enough – and for no real reason for human suffering but the wild irrationality of evil (‘s.)
Jja Manhattan, N.Y.
1
clearly, pedestrian walkways will need to be totally isolated from vehicular traffic in cities. A car or truck is a weapon readily available to all.
3
Pedestrian walkways in cities of the Western world must be somehow isolated from vehicular traffic? I trust you we're being sarcastic. Here's what must be isolated: those who seek entry to the West but who really want a place exactly like the one they left -- except sand free...
I'm sure UK citizens are relieved that even with the current terror events its a much safer place to live than the USA. Today in Florida another mass shooting, NYC is the safest ever - only one murder a day on average much much higher rate than London.
ISIS and terrorism is a distraction, gun crime and poor health systems hurt many more people.
ISIS and terrorism is a distraction, gun crime and poor health systems hurt many more people.
6
That an American President would publicly attack the Mayor of a city just attacked by terrorists - piling on like a bully excited to see someone down and hurt - is disgusting. The people that elected him should be ashamed. This is beyond differences of opinion or policy. It is time the entire world asked: "At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"
5
Totally agree with you. Can you imagine Tony Blair publicly ridiculing something Mayor Giuliani said in the wake of 911, especially when taken completely out of context. What a pathetic bully our Perez is. Shameful, indeed!
6
"Mrs. May and Mr. Corbyn have not similarly politicized these horrible events is reassuring" Wrong on this count. May knows she can be held as guilty for NOT reducing immigration to the UK during her time as Home Secretary, thus, her..."enough is enough" speech. As if she had no part in allowing massive muslim immigration to England during her time as Home Secretary. Why didn't you say that 5 years ago? Britains were already begging to cut the amount of immigration into the country then. Corbyn is on record as saying "shoot to kill" orders should not be allowed for Police. Note that he kept his mouth shut.
5
There is an answer to all of this. It is quite simple really. Stop blowing Middle East countries back to the stone age. ( The West has slaughtered millions of them, and whatever the US Military claims, the vast majority innocent civilians, just since 2001, and the body count is still rising) If the West wants their oil buy it from them.
The more we kill the more they want to kill us. They have no multi trillion dollar air forces, navies, and or modern armies to fight with so they fight back with what they have. There is no difference between a hellfire missile fired into a house full of women, men and children than what happened on London Bridge. Or the slaughter of a wedding party in Afghanistan, only incites Muslims all over the world to want revenge. Acts of terror are the same whether committed by lone wolves on innocents in the Western World or by the most expensive and modern military the world has ever known on innocents in the Middle East. The results are exactly the same. And the "accident" excuse for these attrocities in the Middle East is wearing a little thin even in the West.The only difference is that it is not visible in the Western World, we will never see the horrific results of these bombing raids in the Middle East in the MSM. Stop doing that stuff and you would be surprised at how that would reduce the Terrorist Ranks. The Forever War on the Middle East might just be great for business but it is also the fertilizer for growing Terrorist Organizations.
The more we kill the more they want to kill us. They have no multi trillion dollar air forces, navies, and or modern armies to fight with so they fight back with what they have. There is no difference between a hellfire missile fired into a house full of women, men and children than what happened on London Bridge. Or the slaughter of a wedding party in Afghanistan, only incites Muslims all over the world to want revenge. Acts of terror are the same whether committed by lone wolves on innocents in the Western World or by the most expensive and modern military the world has ever known on innocents in the Middle East. The results are exactly the same. And the "accident" excuse for these attrocities in the Middle East is wearing a little thin even in the West.The only difference is that it is not visible in the Western World, we will never see the horrific results of these bombing raids in the Middle East in the MSM. Stop doing that stuff and you would be surprised at how that would reduce the Terrorist Ranks. The Forever War on the Middle East might just be great for business but it is also the fertilizer for growing Terrorist Organizations.
5
Mr Brendan Cox, the husband of Jo Cox, the British politician who was killed just before the Brexit vote, put it best when he reacted to Trump's tweets: "You represent the worst of your country, Sadiq Khan represents some of the best of ours". Just as one thought he could not sink any lower, Trump manages to demonstrate what a despicable man he is. I have so much admiration for the US history, principles and values and many of its great citizens. It saddens me to see how much damage this man can do in such a short period. Let's hope that there are enough rational and reasonable people around if a major terrorist attack were to happen in the US on his watch because he can drag us all down into disaster.
7
Let's make this about Trump. A good way to deflect.
12
keep importing people from terrorist countries. sing kumaya you self rightious MSM. the left eats its own. later, when they bomb the NYTs, i will send flowers. dont worry, youll think of something clever to write.
13
First. In many cases, the terrorists are not emanating from "terrorist countries", they're home-grown.
And eating one's own is not only a trait of the "left".
Just read the news, there's proof of that.
So keep the flowers. Write something clever instead.
And eating one's own is not only a trait of the "left".
Just read the news, there's proof of that.
So keep the flowers. Write something clever instead.
3
@N. Smith - your comment is disingenuous. Many of these so-called "homegrown" terrorists are from second generation families whose roots are in terrorist harboring middle eastern countries. Further, the attacks are usually carried out in the name of Islam, and not because the terrorists feel disenfranchised and wish for acceptance from secular western societies.
3
if you didnt let in the parents the children wouldnt be here. most cases the household is radicalized.
2
Terrorists attack in the UK and killed and injured people. In Orlando, a "disgruntled worker" killed five people. Because he wasn't a religious extremist, as far as we know, the attach in Orlando barely makes the news, after all it was only five people murdered with a gun, an ordinary event in America. We in the US have spent Trillions "fighting terrorism" - invaded countries, gutted the Bill of Rights, compromised civil liberties, scapegoated whole major religions. Meanwhile, in the US, any wanna-be terrorist is not limited to using a van and a knife for their attack. In the US any wanna-be terrorist can walk into a gun store (and there are plenty), stock up on a nice military-style assault weapon, a few handguns, a few 30, 40, 50, or 100-round clips, a few hundred rounds of ammo, and go do a real terrorist attack. This is apparently not worth taking any measures, or spending any time or money fighting. We'll spend Trillions "fighting terrorism" overseas, while willfully ignoring the domestic terror of gun violence. In the US, terrorists are not forced to rent vans and use large knives, they can buy all the guns and ammo they want easily. A wiser policy would address this - it is only a matter of time before the US has its own domestic terrorist attacks, in fact if we take out the religious context we have about 30 people a day killed in domestic terrorist attacks already every day, all year long. And we don't, and can't, seem to do a thing about it.
8
in my previous comment, I meant you should be cautioning against locking-up "suspected terrorists", not "locking up Muslims". That is, either refer to the religion issue or not, but be consistent.
On the issue of doing more, of course more can be done. Emergency laws can be passed or strengthed, judicial oversight curtailed/eliminated. Detention without trial, deportation, all this area can be expanded as necessary to match the increasing threat. Also, all police should become armed. Possibly too citizens, e.g. restaurants, public places, should be permitted to house arms to be used to defend against future attacks. In the appropriate way, with the appropriate safeguards and protections.
Your reference to Trump's legal difficulties viz. immigration orders do not have a parallel in the U.K. - it doesn't have a similar a Constitution. There are certain human rights-related treaties, yes, but these can be abrogated or modified including by completing withdrawal from the EU.
As important as doing more is being seen to do more. The kind of abjectness reflected in the editorial tends toward doing the exact opposite - giving up. It will only make the problem worse, is short-sighted and defeatist.
On the issue of doing more, of course more can be done. Emergency laws can be passed or strengthed, judicial oversight curtailed/eliminated. Detention without trial, deportation, all this area can be expanded as necessary to match the increasing threat. Also, all police should become armed. Possibly too citizens, e.g. restaurants, public places, should be permitted to house arms to be used to defend against future attacks. In the appropriate way, with the appropriate safeguards and protections.
Your reference to Trump's legal difficulties viz. immigration orders do not have a parallel in the U.K. - it doesn't have a similar a Constitution. There are certain human rights-related treaties, yes, but these can be abrogated or modified including by completing withdrawal from the EU.
As important as doing more is being seen to do more. The kind of abjectness reflected in the editorial tends toward doing the exact opposite - giving up. It will only make the problem worse, is short-sighted and defeatist.
1
Over thirty years ago I lived in Luton which is about twenty five miles north of London when I was at University. It was during the Thatcher years in the 1980s. It was a well integrated community then with many different ethnic groups. However it was a period when there were unrest and in operation was the sus laws of stop and search, which were a catalyst for the race riots in the early 80s. Many of the young members of ethnic groups I spoke to felt disenfranchised and isolated from the government and country at the time. I used to work on a couple of youth projects in my spare time and one father from a particular ethnic group I remember saying to me that he feared for the future of his children. He thought that if the problems that existed then were not addressed there would come a time in the future when they would be addressed but not in a rational way. It was still a shock to find that the 7/7 London bombers came from Luton and perhaps shows the radicalisation of our youth has not been a new phenomena but one that has been a gradual process over a considerable number of years.
4
I'm just curious but do you attribute any responsibility to the "ethnic groups" to improve their own fate, or future?
Why did they feel disenfranchised and isolated? Is it because of pure prejudice and social exclusion by white society? The same society which agreed after all to admit people of their background?
Why did they feel disenfranchised and isolated? Is it because of pure prejudice and social exclusion by white society? The same society which agreed after all to admit people of their background?
7
There is very little that can be done proactively to prevent these kinds of attacks. There is something, however, that can be done retroactively.
Assuming that radicalism doesn't develop in a vacuum and that family members are almost certainly aware that one of their own is turning to the dark side, immediately deport the parents, brothers and sisters of anyone engaging in terrorist acts.
So far, we are losing this battle. Why are Muslim men who travel to the mid east to fight allowed to re-enter the U.K? Why haven't we destroyed the Islamic State leadership? I suppose the reason is that innocent civilians would die in the attack. That happens in wartime.
Assuming that radicalism doesn't develop in a vacuum and that family members are almost certainly aware that one of their own is turning to the dark side, immediately deport the parents, brothers and sisters of anyone engaging in terrorist acts.
So far, we are losing this battle. Why are Muslim men who travel to the mid east to fight allowed to re-enter the U.K? Why haven't we destroyed the Islamic State leadership? I suppose the reason is that innocent civilians would die in the attack. That happens in wartime.
15
Yea the only people engaging in proactive crime prevention seem to be observant members of the general public. A co-worker of the concert bomber Abedi had warned authorities 5 years ago about his radicalization. There were multiple warnings from others since then. The cops ignored the information. But now they'll have a big investigation and maybe an apology to the families of the victims. Too late.
4
But thank goodness, that ISIS is merely the "junior varsity", so no reason to be worried or afraid at all. Carry on!
11
And of course, Donald Trump has gone more out of control over the London attacks, when a sane Ally would just sit-back, offer private condolences, and not force his advice--particularly publicly, a la Tweetery.
And Donald, given your past Intel exploits with Intel, sharing Mosad-source information with the Russians, now is certainly not the time to offer advice. And, stop calling for a Ban! Let MI-5 and the London Police do there job.
Lastly, Donald, do nit--repeat: do not--send Jared over to "HELP!"
https://thetruthoncommonsense.com
And Donald, given your past Intel exploits with Intel, sharing Mosad-source information with the Russians, now is certainly not the time to offer advice. And, stop calling for a Ban! Let MI-5 and the London Police do there job.
Lastly, Donald, do nit--repeat: do not--send Jared over to "HELP!"
https://thetruthoncommonsense.com
8
Totally pathetic and hollow words in this piece. How many times will the NYT write such vacuous articles? Do they have a template saved so that they can rehash it the next time Islamic extremists slaughter innocents?
The time has come to stop with the political correctness. All these terrorists are Muslims. And they kill in the name of Islam. We have got to put more pressure on our Muslim communities to speak out against Salafism and extremism. It is a cancer within Islam that has been allowed to grow unchecked for far too long.
Last week on the BBC program "Question Time" a man brought with him a leaflet that he was given at Didsbury mosque, the Manchester mosque where Salman Abedi (Manchester bomber) prayed. The leaflet said some very disturbing things about how the "West" had a way of life that was not "modest or decent." Rather than admit that this was deeply worrying, the panel on the show, comprised mostly of politicians, brushed off the man's concerns and said that he had probably read the leaflet "out of context."
The level of denial is astronomical. It is totally insane. People will be looking back at us in 50-100 years time and think "why were they avoiding the obvious truth for so long?"
And as long as gassy, feel-good nonsense such as this piece continue to be written, we will never get to the heart of the problem.
The time has come to stop with the political correctness. All these terrorists are Muslims. And they kill in the name of Islam. We have got to put more pressure on our Muslim communities to speak out against Salafism and extremism. It is a cancer within Islam that has been allowed to grow unchecked for far too long.
Last week on the BBC program "Question Time" a man brought with him a leaflet that he was given at Didsbury mosque, the Manchester mosque where Salman Abedi (Manchester bomber) prayed. The leaflet said some very disturbing things about how the "West" had a way of life that was not "modest or decent." Rather than admit that this was deeply worrying, the panel on the show, comprised mostly of politicians, brushed off the man's concerns and said that he had probably read the leaflet "out of context."
The level of denial is astronomical. It is totally insane. People will be looking back at us in 50-100 years time and think "why were they avoiding the obvious truth for so long?"
And as long as gassy, feel-good nonsense such as this piece continue to be written, we will never get to the heart of the problem.
37
"The level of denial is astronomical. It is totally insane. People will be looking back at us in 50-100 years time and think "why were they avoiding the obvious truth for so long?"".
Because they are afraid, and they don't have a leadership to give them strength and confidence. There are no Churchills, no Roosevelts, no De Gaulles, no Trumans. Thatcher was the last who was broadly of this type, perhaps Reagan too.
Society has changed so much too, the whole national idea, which is the basis for strong leadership and the impetus to fight back, is in disarray.
It will change I think but I hope it doesn't take 50-100 years.
Because they are afraid, and they don't have a leadership to give them strength and confidence. There are no Churchills, no Roosevelts, no De Gaulles, no Trumans. Thatcher was the last who was broadly of this type, perhaps Reagan too.
Society has changed so much too, the whole national idea, which is the basis for strong leadership and the impetus to fight back, is in disarray.
It will change I think but I hope it doesn't take 50-100 years.
2
We in the West are naive and they know it.
4
Rahul, JF and Gerald: You are all in touch with reality. Fear is a factor, but it is the true Leftist's fear of saying or doing something that may lead to his or dienfranchisement as one of the avant-garde garde, one of the chic thinkers... instead of looking in the mirror to behold the face of foolishness... Keep in step or you won't be allowed to march...
1
I do believe that terrorism can be reduced with a police state which would include a lot more snooping on us by the government and its corporate cronies. Maybe if humanity would end it's terrorism toward all other life on this planet it would help, otherwise, expect a lot more self-destructive karmic results. Amazing how dumb people are and how they don't see the real problem which is our dominion over the earth. It is a terrorist approach: kill and destroy because your religion says you should.
1
The Nytimes seem to have taken some flack from the UK over its articles on the recent terrorist attack and although it has been dealt with promptly this time by our police and security forces there is no getting away from the fact that our police and homeland security has suffered under a Conservative government especially when the Prime Minister Theresa May was the country's Home Secretary. We have seen a reduction of over 20,000 police officers as well as huge reductions in expertise of police staff. The police that remained have had to take over the staff posts in many cases reducing further front line officers and weakening operationally our police forces some that have come close to meltdown. A reduction in resources due to the severe budget cuts imposed by Theresa May has meant an increase in crime in the U.K. In whatever shape or form it takes, including terrorism. She had been warned by the Police Federation but chose to turn a blind eye to police officers concerns. One of the radicalised individuals who was shot in the London attack had been reporte to the police by neighbours about his activities but was not followed up. This was probably due to the lack of officers or police staff available to carry out any investigation and I say that as a former UK police employee. We are fighting a war alright but it seems it's against all reason and our ruling Tory government. It is no wonder that much of the UK electorate is up in arms !
3
This is Islamic terrorism and why the hesitation of the Prime Minister, Theresa May and Labor Leader, Jeremy Corbyn to not call it as such. This is not the time for political correctness when Britain has suffered three terrorist attacks within three months and countless people have been killed and injured. Are they afraid of insulting Muslims by using these words. The innocent Muslims have nothing to fear only those who are guilty of these heinous crimes.
This is what is prompting British citizens to support Brexit and their support will only increase. I am sure the British are also saying enough is enough and want more severe action to occur. This will result in the people wanting stricter immigration laws to be put into place and enforced. Do you blame them after all the destruction and devastation they have experienced in so short of time.
This is what is prompting British citizens to support Brexit and their support will only increase. I am sure the British are also saying enough is enough and want more severe action to occur. This will result in the people wanting stricter immigration laws to be put into place and enforced. Do you blame them after all the destruction and devastation they have experienced in so short of time.
9
Since all the recent vehicle rammings in Europe involved rental vehicles, I wonder if any thought has been given to requiring car rental agencies to do some kind of background check on people renting vehicles.
11
Excellent point and something to add to the kind of emergency laws I mentioned in my post.
You are incorrect on at least one point. Ms May did electioneer in her speech after this attack. Her poll numbers are down and she was playing to the base with harsher faux action words in her rhetoric. Compare it to what she had to say after the Manchester bombing.
3
Has anyone bothered to ask Trumpo if he has done the evaluation of the Visa issuing system the "temporary ban" is allegedly meant to allow for?
Or pointed out to him that once again his own words prove the lie of what his people are trying to convince the courts his intent is with the EO?
Or pointed out to him that once again his own words prove the lie of what his people are trying to convince the courts his intent is with the EO?
3
The problem is that Islamist terrorist are waging war on the West, while the West pretends that this is only case of individual criminal acts to be dealt with by civil authorities. This cannot work because in the Western law enforcement system the police cannot act prophylactically -- the miscreants cannot be jailed until they do something criminal, which is an ideal environment for "sleeper" terrorists.
Second, the punishment meted out is absurdly mild by Middle Eastern standards, and prisons become hotbeds for Islamist recruitments. People who gladly die to kill infidels are unlikely to reform when locked up under humane conditions, with good food, exercise, TV, access to libraries, services of Imams, etc. To them that's not a deterrent.
So Ms. May's statement that "enough is enough" is ridiculous -- nothing will change because civilized Western societies are unable or unwilling to do what needs to be done.
Second, the punishment meted out is absurdly mild by Middle Eastern standards, and prisons become hotbeds for Islamist recruitments. People who gladly die to kill infidels are unlikely to reform when locked up under humane conditions, with good food, exercise, TV, access to libraries, services of Imams, etc. To them that's not a deterrent.
So Ms. May's statement that "enough is enough" is ridiculous -- nothing will change because civilized Western societies are unable or unwilling to do what needs to be done.
34
So you're advocating putting people in jail before they commit a crime? How are you going to justify that? This is not a war - it's a smallish group of bad criminal actors that want to create an over the top reaction which is what they're getting. Why isn't anyone getting excited that more people were killed by guns in New Orleans the same night?
4
In their minds the West is both weak and naive. Especially the men, who are not protecting their women and children.
7
Perhaps America and the UK should stop supporting Saudi Arabia and their oil.
SA funds all the anti-West, anti-christian ideology around the world in schools and mosques and online. Even after SA support for 9/11, the country and its rulers have never been sanctioned or called out or punished in any way.
We are too afraid of losing their oil.
Our governments do not stand up for us. They complain loudly then give them money and weapons- Trump! Let's finally stand up to them. Let's get our oil elsewhere or take a bus. Time to get serious.
SA funds all the anti-West, anti-christian ideology around the world in schools and mosques and online. Even after SA support for 9/11, the country and its rulers have never been sanctioned or called out or punished in any way.
We are too afraid of losing their oil.
Our governments do not stand up for us. They complain loudly then give them money and weapons- Trump! Let's finally stand up to them. Let's get our oil elsewhere or take a bus. Time to get serious.
2
I object to the tenor of this article. "Britain in agony over terrorism." Come on. What I'm seeing the is the Brits taking this in stride, like they have taken much worse challenges over the years. I guarantee that more Brits were killed in car crashes over the weekend than in this attack.
This is the language that plays right into the hands of the terrorists. The whole point of terrorism is to try and create generalized fear. Thanks media - doing one heck of a job. Instead of sensationalism, what if terror attacks were handled in calmer more conventional tones, such as "Three religious extremists used a van and knives to kill x people and wound y others over the weekend. The police have killed them all and are well on their way to arresting others that may have been involved. Citizens be vigilant, but be aware that there is a major effort underway to minimize these kinds of events."
This is the language that plays right into the hands of the terrorists. The whole point of terrorism is to try and create generalized fear. Thanks media - doing one heck of a job. Instead of sensationalism, what if terror attacks were handled in calmer more conventional tones, such as "Three religious extremists used a van and knives to kill x people and wound y others over the weekend. The police have killed them all and are well on their way to arresting others that may have been involved. Citizens be vigilant, but be aware that there is a major effort underway to minimize these kinds of events."
24
I disagree. Their goal is not to create fear. They simply want to murder us. All of us. I wish people would stop saying they are just fear mongers. Far from it.
They desire to kill, not scare.
They desire to kill, not scare.
14
I guess that would be a better way of saying it if you are willing lie outright. There is no "major effort". Warnings are being ignored all over the place. The police are crime janitors. They come in and clean up the mess afterwards. There is no prevention.
1
so why was the policeman who killed them arrested? why did people in a pub have to throw chairs & bottles @ the terroroists? the PD in the pub were UN armed. thats why. any comments?
2
The best weapons against terrorism are compassion, education, inclusion, and kindness. They are more potent than any weapon of war.
Terrorism, particularly home-grown terrorism, thrives in isolation, alienation, prejudice, and scapegoating. Draconian measures taken out of fear and anger only breed more terrorism. The courage, defiance, and determination to carry on in the face of hate and self-despite is so very British and a wonderful inspiration to all.
The orchestrators of terror want us to become the thing we oppose. Because if we resist, if we double down on our compassion, our generosity, our democratic ideals, and our humanity, terrorism cannot thrive.
Terrorism, particularly home-grown terrorism, thrives in isolation, alienation, prejudice, and scapegoating. Draconian measures taken out of fear and anger only breed more terrorism. The courage, defiance, and determination to carry on in the face of hate and self-despite is so very British and a wonderful inspiration to all.
The orchestrators of terror want us to become the thing we oppose. Because if we resist, if we double down on our compassion, our generosity, our democratic ideals, and our humanity, terrorism cannot thrive.
3
" isolation, alienation, prejudice, and scapegoating. Draconian measures taken out of fear and anger "
Sounds like the reagan GOP How to govern America playbook.
Sounds like the reagan GOP How to govern America playbook.
1
You should've inserted "another inane New York Times editorial" after "Another terrorist attack" in your title.
At this point, I don't know which is more predictable, terrorist attacks in Europe due to its clueless lack of border controls and impotent law enforcement, or the the self righteous tut tuts offered by the NYT editorial board.
For what it's worth, I would happily choose that idiotic editorials fill the pages in the NYT rather than terrible news like this, any day all day.
At this point, I don't know which is more predictable, terrorist attacks in Europe due to its clueless lack of border controls and impotent law enforcement, or the the self righteous tut tuts offered by the NYT editorial board.
For what it's worth, I would happily choose that idiotic editorials fill the pages in the NYT rather than terrible news like this, any day all day.
21
The European terrorist attacks were and still are as domestic as were the American terrorist attacks of Jim Jones. David Koresh, Randy Weaver, Tim McVeigh, Eric Frein, Eric Rudolph, Cliven Bundy and Dylann Roof.
Since 9/11/01 only 0.75% of Americans have volunteered to wear the military uniform of any American armed force. None from the House of Trump.
Since 9/11/01 only 0.75% of Americans have volunteered to wear the military uniform of any American armed force. None from the House of Trump.
4
"At this point, I don't know which is more predictable, terrorist attacks in Europe due to its clueless lack of border controls and impotent law enforcement..."
What's to blame for all the mass shootings in the US - define impotent law enforcement (the 3 dead terrorists might also beg to differ regarding that point)
What's to blame for all the mass shootings in the US - define impotent law enforcement (the 3 dead terrorists might also beg to differ regarding that point)
2
does the NYT's know how many people know they are idiots?
3
Imagine the death toll in London on Saturday night if the three men who leaped out of that van had been wielding M16s instead of knives.
A preview of coming attractions in the good ol' US of A.
A preview of coming attractions in the good ol' US of A.
14
Coming soon to a shopping mall, movie theatre or event near you.
Then and only then will people start questioning whether economic Muslim immigration is prudent. Maybe. Some will still want to coddle them.
Then and only then will people start questioning whether economic Muslim immigration is prudent. Maybe. Some will still want to coddle them.
7
ISIS specifically recommended the approach of knives, trucks and cars.
Part of the reason for this is how ordinary and normal in everyday life these weapons are so blocking access to these weapons is near impossible, and how these tools can start killing in an instant without prior notice. That is part of the terror component - as that ordinary truck driving a bit fast coming in your direction may be cause for fear.
Part of the reason for this is how ordinary and normal in everyday life these weapons are so blocking access to these weapons is near impossible, and how these tools can start killing in an instant without prior notice. That is part of the terror component - as that ordinary truck driving a bit fast coming in your direction may be cause for fear.
1
The NYT reminds me of those wacky parents who refuse to take their children to doctors, instead sure that divine assistance is all that is needed.
Just like those parents keep saying "heaven will help" over and over again instead of actually doing anything, the Times keeps repeating it's liberal orthodoxies, while the sickness just grows.
Just like those parents keep saying "heaven will help" over and over again instead of actually doing anything, the Times keeps repeating it's liberal orthodoxies, while the sickness just grows.
18
It is sad to think of today as being the 70th anniversary of a visionary for the future, George C. Marshall. who introduced the Marshall Plan which rebuilt Europe and set in place a structure that gave the west mutual protection.
In contrast, we have Donald Trump who seems to be doing the bidding of President Bannon trying to tear down the world order in a way that will set the United States backwards in it's world presence in a way that will hurt this country economically in both domestically and foreign policy wise in immeasurable ways.
In contrast, we have Donald Trump who seems to be doing the bidding of President Bannon trying to tear down the world order in a way that will set the United States backwards in it's world presence in a way that will hurt this country economically in both domestically and foreign policy wise in immeasurable ways.
3
The British establishment does not want to address the difficult questions, they hope it will all blow over. Islam is still a taboo subject in Britain. Nobody wants to be accused of racism. Jeremy Corbyn wants more police. That is like addressing the symptoms not the cause of the disease Most countries in the Muslim world are police states because Islam is a religion which seems to produce violent fanatics. The way of life in Britain is already changing. The terrorists have already won. The police are watching 30,000 people waiting for them to commit a crime so that they can arrest them. More surveillance and security is needed. This is also an ideological war, we need to start attacking what the terrorists believe in. However, most of the media and the politicians are too cowardly to do this.
9
Actually, Corbyn quite rightly " politicized" the attacks, but in an intelligent way. He talked about the various factors that have caused terrorism and how we should respond. You can read it here--
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/05/jeremy-corbyn-spee...
He said the Brits should unite, but there was a small number of young men being persuaded to commit these terrible crimes. He also linked terror to Western policies in the Mideast.
Basically the NYT watered down the statement of Corbyn to the " we should all unite" material they prefer. I agree with the unite sentiment, but serious adults also discuss causes and policies.
Trump, of course, is an idiot, but that is an unchanging physical constant of the universe.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/05/jeremy-corbyn-spee...
He said the Brits should unite, but there was a small number of young men being persuaded to commit these terrible crimes. He also linked terror to Western policies in the Mideast.
Basically the NYT watered down the statement of Corbyn to the " we should all unite" material they prefer. I agree with the unite sentiment, but serious adults also discuss causes and policies.
Trump, of course, is an idiot, but that is an unchanging physical constant of the universe.
6
I am afraid the world has become numb, reeling from one agonizing news report to the next. Children killed in their classrooms, people walking across a bridge or in Times Square being mowed down by fanatical barbarians, people who kill in the name of their god. How sick is that.
ISIS is but a symptom of a sick world, appealing to people who live in despair and have no hope. How else to explain the young men and women who are willing to blow themselves up in martyrdom in the belief that they will (finally) find peace, love and joy in heaven, not to mention 72 virgins to cater to their needs. How sick is that.
Donald Trump believes America should come first and that we should be retreating from the global stage. We should be doing the opposite of course. We should be in the forefront of giving people hope all over the world, of doing what we can to make their lives better and enriching their futures.
Until we reduce the despair, the Hobbesian lives most people experience, we will always be fighting ISIS, and we will continue to mourn the victims of this needless violence.
ISIS is but a symptom of a sick world, appealing to people who live in despair and have no hope. How else to explain the young men and women who are willing to blow themselves up in martyrdom in the belief that they will (finally) find peace, love and joy in heaven, not to mention 72 virgins to cater to their needs. How sick is that.
Donald Trump believes America should come first and that we should be retreating from the global stage. We should be doing the opposite of course. We should be in the forefront of giving people hope all over the world, of doing what we can to make their lives better and enriching their futures.
Until we reduce the despair, the Hobbesian lives most people experience, we will always be fighting ISIS, and we will continue to mourn the victims of this needless violence.
9
These attackers are doing this in the name of Islam. They truly believe that the world should be controlled by a caliphate and they justify these horrific acts as punishing the infidels which they consider us (western democrats) to be. They hate our freedom of speech, they despise our freedom to be atheists, and they detest our freedoms of expression and sexuality. But we seem unable to openly discuss the problems with Islam because as soon as you mention that Islamic beliefs are used to support terrorism the left screams "that's not Islam" and labels you a bigot. You can't even point out that some Muslim dress practices, like wearing a hijab, is really about controlling women without being called a racist.
Why can't we make a simple statement like Islam's practice of making women walk behind men is sexist without being called white supremiscists? Why can't we state that any religion that calls for violence against people who criticizes or blasphemes its deity is backwards, without being called a facist?
We should be able to state openly and without fear of retribution and hate that Islam needs to enter the modern world and leave its practices of intolerance and violence behind.
Why can't we make a simple statement like Islam's practice of making women walk behind men is sexist without being called white supremiscists? Why can't we state that any religion that calls for violence against people who criticizes or blasphemes its deity is backwards, without being called a facist?
We should be able to state openly and without fear of retribution and hate that Islam needs to enter the modern world and leave its practices of intolerance and violence behind.
70
There has been no confirmation of the motives or whether or not there is a faith based reason behind this violence. It seems likely but lets not jump the gun could be they are actually some other insane faith group.
1
They are encouraged (by ISIS) to pick up the pace of attacks during Ramadan. During their "holy" month they are being better, more observant Muslims by killing more innocent people according to that belief. It's obvious that violence towards non-Muslims is very much institutionalized into their religion.
2
When will Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism and Christianity enter the modern natural peaceful world of universal human rights?
World War I and World War II are monuments to universal inhumane Judeo-Christian Buddhist terrorism and evil. Neither Tojo nor Hitler nor Stalin nor Churchill nor Roosevelt were Muslims. Nor were the Emperors, Czar, Kaiser or Kings.
World War I and World War II are monuments to universal inhumane Judeo-Christian Buddhist terrorism and evil. Neither Tojo nor Hitler nor Stalin nor Churchill nor Roosevelt were Muslims. Nor were the Emperors, Czar, Kaiser or Kings.
3
The NYT Editorial Board notes, “President Trump’s bizarre Twitter barrage in which he variously scorned the mayor of London for seeking to reassure his people, blamed political correctness for what he said was the world’s weak response to terrorism…”
This is the same paper tiger, who did not have either the courage or political will to utter his favorite phrase, “radical Islamic terrorism,” when addressing a gathering last month of Muslim leaders in Saudi Arabia, the birthplace of this ideology. By misrepresenting the mayor of London in his tweet, Trump inflamed the situation rather than assuage it – for which he should be ashamed of himself. Fortunately for the U.K. and our European allies, and unfortunately for us, they don’t take Trump’s tweets seriously anymore.
Trump’s tweets are clearly directed to his base for which Trump’s twisted messages are real, while they are invariably “fake news” for the rest of the world.
This is the same paper tiger, who did not have either the courage or political will to utter his favorite phrase, “radical Islamic terrorism,” when addressing a gathering last month of Muslim leaders in Saudi Arabia, the birthplace of this ideology. By misrepresenting the mayor of London in his tweet, Trump inflamed the situation rather than assuage it – for which he should be ashamed of himself. Fortunately for the U.K. and our European allies, and unfortunately for us, they don’t take Trump’s tweets seriously anymore.
Trump’s tweets are clearly directed to his base for which Trump’s twisted messages are real, while they are invariably “fake news” for the rest of the world.
9
Absolutely true, and something that should be pointed out in every article about this illiterate venal emperor.
1
You guys are such hypocrites sometimes. Mrs. May said:
"an evil ideology of Islamist extremism”
Which you call the "adult response" as opposed to what Trump said - and everyone here knows full well that if Trump had said the same thing as she did you would be all over him for weeks on end with this new "evidence" of his hatred for the "poor Muslims!" so terribly maligned by this racist who calls their peaceful faith an "evil ideology!" Yes, that is exactly how you would spin it if Trump had said it. But when Mrs. May said that...well!, well!,...she is an "adult!" LOL!
"an evil ideology of Islamist extremism”
Which you call the "adult response" as opposed to what Trump said - and everyone here knows full well that if Trump had said the same thing as she did you would be all over him for weeks on end with this new "evidence" of his hatred for the "poor Muslims!" so terribly maligned by this racist who calls their peaceful faith an "evil ideology!" Yes, that is exactly how you would spin it if Trump had said it. But when Mrs. May said that...well!, well!,...she is an "adult!" LOL!
14
Wrong. Actually there is a subtle but real difference between using the term "Islamist terrorist" which is acceptable and accurate, and the terms "Islamic terrorism" or "radical Islam" which presidents and most Western leaders have, at least until now, refused to use. The term "Islamist" refers to a political movement with certain goals and beliefs supposedly drawn from the Koran and Sharia law. Describing these terrorists as Islamists is accurate. Using the term "Islamic" on the other hand suggests that Muslims in general are terrorists when, in fact, the terrorists are not representative of the Islamic faith.
1
I take it we shouldn't call terrorists who are Jews and Zionists Jewish terrorists or Ziomist terrorists because the (tiny) number who so qualify are not representative of the Jewish faith or quasi-religious Zionist movement.
Yes?
What should be call them? Judaistic terrorists maybe, or Zionistical terrorists.
Don't hold your breath.
Yes?
What should be call them? Judaistic terrorists maybe, or Zionistical terrorists.
Don't hold your breath.
Both Mrs. May and Mr. Corbyn set an example of how true statesmen respond to this type of terror attack. Mr. Khan , too, set the right tone in his response. Unfortunately, our President did not. His comment about Mr. Khan's statement was not a case of misunderstanding. It was a deliberate mistatement meant to serve his own political purpose. One other thing, almost everyone refers to the ISIS or ISIL or the Islamic Stzte. More accurately, it should be referred to as Daesh (the country or state of Iraq and Syria). It by no measure is an Islamic State or a caliphate. It is only a regional terrorist organizations with no claim to the allegiance of Muslims worldwide.
3
Wrong, wrong, wrong. These blokes whom Ms. Kisluk so admires merely substitute wishdul thinking and ineffective words for effective action. But reality will not be denied. There is no help down that road.
The British people know sustained real recent terror and daily agony more than the American people ever had.
Britain survived Adolf Hitler's blitzkrieg at Dunkirk, Goering's Luftwaffe air raids over Britain and von Braun's V-1 and V-2 missiles. Britain survived the IRA. This is no where near that.
What Britain is experiencing in some cities pales in comparison to what is happening to faceless and nameless people in Baghdad, Mosul, Kabul, Istanbul, Cairo and Gaza.
Unless and until all terrorists and terrorism is equally evil and condemned and all terrorist victims are equally known and mourned then the inhumane evil hypocrisy deserves to be called out. Beginning with the British and American allied invasions and occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq and the coups in Iran, Egypt, Libya and Yemen and war in Syria.
Israel is by far the most powerful state sponsor of terrorism and imperial colonialism in the Middle East with the gift of American arms and diplomatic cover. Followed closely by the Saudi Arabian royal theocratic fossil fuel autocrats and the military dictators in Egypt all armed by American weapons and diplomatic cover.
What fuels the rise of terrorism is American and British pacts with 'allies' who deny people under dominion their divine and natural equal certain unalienable rights of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. There is no military solution to this basic problem.
Britain survived Adolf Hitler's blitzkrieg at Dunkirk, Goering's Luftwaffe air raids over Britain and von Braun's V-1 and V-2 missiles. Britain survived the IRA. This is no where near that.
What Britain is experiencing in some cities pales in comparison to what is happening to faceless and nameless people in Baghdad, Mosul, Kabul, Istanbul, Cairo and Gaza.
Unless and until all terrorists and terrorism is equally evil and condemned and all terrorist victims are equally known and mourned then the inhumane evil hypocrisy deserves to be called out. Beginning with the British and American allied invasions and occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq and the coups in Iran, Egypt, Libya and Yemen and war in Syria.
Israel is by far the most powerful state sponsor of terrorism and imperial colonialism in the Middle East with the gift of American arms and diplomatic cover. Followed closely by the Saudi Arabian royal theocratic fossil fuel autocrats and the military dictators in Egypt all armed by American weapons and diplomatic cover.
What fuels the rise of terrorism is American and British pacts with 'allies' who deny people under dominion their divine and natural equal certain unalienable rights of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. There is no military solution to this basic problem.
6
Well that's a fairly exhaustive laundry list of excuses. Invoking Syria is particularly ironic as the west is constantly criticized for doing too little. And the idea that all this would stop if only the Israelis would allow themselves to be slaughtered is laughably naive. In Iraq we tried to give them democracy and a constitution. Turns out they'd rather kill each other or live under a caliphate. Finally, read the Pew poll on Islamic attitudes. "Equal inalienable rights" are the last thing they want.
14
"In Iraq we tried to give them democracy and a constitution. "
Max, how absurd. "We" have no business trying to install a form of government and constitution on any other country. We have enough trouble maintaining our own democracy and constitution at the moment, if you have not noticed.
Max, how absurd. "We" have no business trying to install a form of government and constitution on any other country. We have enough trouble maintaining our own democracy and constitution at the moment, if you have not noticed.
Rebecca - I was responding to the absurd, self-hating, liberal guilt ridden assertion that the London terrorists are victims who are only lashing out because the evil US is denying them their rights, using Iraq as an example.
Whatever one thinks of the Iraq war, Saddam was gone and a new government was needed to replace him. The Iraqis (and most of the Muslim world) made it clear that a society with civil rights wasn't all that important.
Whatever one thinks of the Iraq war, Saddam was gone and a new government was needed to replace him. The Iraqis (and most of the Muslim world) made it clear that a society with civil rights wasn't all that important.
..."“an evil ideology of Islamist extremism” that perversely justifies slaughtering the innocent and vulnerable in the name of the Islamic State...." This is NOT what leads to terroristic acts. Violent, first-person shooter, virtual reality video gaming addiction, coupled with downloads of ever more extreme violent pornography (addiction), brainwashes these people into a psychotic state from which they commit these crimes. We have to stop giving Islamic 'terrorists' such demonic power in our minds. This is how they do it; they find marginalized, isolated young people who are addicted to violent video gaming and porn and 'radicalize' them. No different from all the Dylann Roofs, Adam Lanzas - all of them. It's a psychosis that develops. The 'radicalization' through 'Islam' is just icing on the cake.
You clearly have no idea how popular video games and porn actually are. If they really led to terrorism we'd all be dead by now.
6
A dark event only interrupted by an idiot named Donald. America, could you please, first of all, keep him quiet and then, get rid of him and his entire family. What a disgrace and stain.
9
How tedious and dangerous is this editorial. One can only assume that the dishonesty of colluding with the Clinton campaign during the election is still infecting the minds and hearts of the people who work for the NYTs. Or perhaps you all lack imagination. Here is a little prompt: Try imagining that was your sons and daughters or wives and husbands who were murdered in London.
21
you are not "getting" the sickness. some famlies of victims still defend islam & wsdnt more brought in. they say "all we need is love". ethno masocism is popular. just read the NYT's.
trump should read, listen and inform himself before exercising his ugly pie hole, or his tiny, stubby fingers.
6
Since we will not sit on our hands and let Islamist terrorism run smock without ultimately resorting to draconian measures, the quest should be how to end ubiquitous Islamic terror without killing countless millions of Muslims, which will undoubtedly occur if nothing less lethal succeeds. One potential tactic is to use the left's Post Modern approach. Namely, we can legally redefine Islam as something other than a religion, and thereby remove the extraordinary legal privileges enjoyed by religions and their adherents. We do not give unbridled religious protections to cannabalistic 'religions' or to polygamous sects. Once Muslims are stripped of their religious designation, then any and all accommodations to this redefined as murderous hate cult can be stripped away, and its adherents can be treated like we did Nazis and Klan members. While unorthodox and extreme, it's incomparably less extreme and deadly than what will be growing support for and ultimate extermination if Muslim terror continues unabated.
4
NYT anti-terror Action Plan: "Do nothing... and for Allah sake, don't upset any Muslims"
28
No, do not, I repeat, do not hurt their feelings.
4
ISIS knows that a similar attack would cause the US government to lash out at Muslims here and send Americans into panic.
In our easily frightened nation, more than death from terrorism I fear what the public might permit the Trump administration to do after an attack. Those threats of internment camps would not longer be red meat for Red-State voters.
Cases in point? Patriot Act, Gitmo, secret tribunals, and Abu Ghraib. Thus the restrained UK response to me shows more strength than our bluster and bludgeoning of civil rights.
In our easily frightened nation, more than death from terrorism I fear what the public might permit the Trump administration to do after an attack. Those threats of internment camps would not longer be red meat for Red-State voters.
Cases in point? Patriot Act, Gitmo, secret tribunals, and Abu Ghraib. Thus the restrained UK response to me shows more strength than our bluster and bludgeoning of civil rights.
2
But we've had plenty of attacks. Yet somehow we didn't turn into panicked, gun toting posses.
Under Trump, yes, that may give them pause, as it should. The new sheriff in town is 3 gallons of crazy in a two gallon hat.
Under Trump, yes, that may give them pause, as it should. The new sheriff in town is 3 gallons of crazy in a two gallon hat.
put every muslim from a sleeper cell into a camp. deport. case closed.
2
Time to get angry and I commend May and Trump for getting in front of the problem. The Mayor of London should be angry to except he wants us "not to worry". Stop worrying and take some action !
8
I strongly admire how the British and French have handled the terrorist attacks in their countries. I am equally disgusted by Trump's attempts to politicize these tragedies to try to push through his agenda. I also believe that he is rather irate that none of these attacks have happened here in America so he an use them to ramp up fear and hatred and give himself more power. We Americans will need to be vigilant in the days, weeks, and months ahead. I am never sure where the next attack might come from--inside or outside.
4
dont worry. an islamic attack will come soon enough. want to list of the last few years? when the attack comes you can blame trump. blame me too, i voted for him :)
The Emperor is not wearing any clothes, he is as all together as all together as naked as can be. What or why this was I do not know but terror or an attack where anyone was hurt, this was not.
How, in God's name, is Trump "politicizing" when he is making policy recommendations for stopping exactly the sort of thing England is dealing with? You speak with admiration of May and Corbyn's responses. But how are these responses, especially the drivel of Corbyn, going to stop this madness?
Draconian is a strong word. Yet societies that cannot protect themselves enact draconian policies. it is why we've had a draft. it is why we used atomic weapons on civilians in World War 2. The NYT, if it wishes to avoid a "draconian" response to the attacks by a major religion on free societies, might want to do something truly original: propose something other than: "not much to see here, calm down everyone."
Draconian is a strong word. Yet societies that cannot protect themselves enact draconian policies. it is why we've had a draft. it is why we used atomic weapons on civilians in World War 2. The NYT, if it wishes to avoid a "draconian" response to the attacks by a major religion on free societies, might want to do something truly original: propose something other than: "not much to see here, calm down everyone."
The look in that little boy's eyes says a lot. It is not just camera shyness. It is confusion and fear.
1
Wait, "That both Mrs. May and Mr. Corbyn have not similarly politicized these horrible events is reassuring."? May has used this opportunity to push her agenda of Internet censorship in the most cynical way - something that she has been pushing since her days as Home Secretary. Given that one of the attackers' neighbours reported him, the problem was a lack of resources to act on the intelligence, not taking away personal liberties.
Terrorism is not something you "stop." Can crime be "stopped"? And democratic values aren't "sacrificed" in situations such as martial law. Temporarily suspended perhaps, but never "sacrificed" which implies a permanent curtailment of democratic rights. Terrorism is vexing because it is an idea. President Trump seems to believe that if you kill adherents to the idea that the idea will disappear. The NYT seems to believe that terrorism is a "provocation" to be tolerated if its eradication depends on "disrupting democracy." Most of all it seems to believe that terror must not be "politicized."
For it one thing is certain: Trump is part of the problem.
For it one thing is certain: Trump is part of the problem.
1
I love that the American perception of everything British is straight out of Downton Abbey or Jane Austen. Class, stoicism, maturity, blah blah. Their tyrants and dimwits appear amazing to Americans.
A closer examination of the public discourse occurring in the UK will show not just a wide variance in attitudes, it will highlight an almost frighteningly high level of smugness (some of it related to unabashed delight in watching other people suffer), a colossal failure to identify the real problems, and paralysis when it comes to actions. Much about the UK is intoxicating in its wonderfulness. But oh my god do the Brits debate the wrong questions a lot of the time, and fail to even acknowledge the existence of key issues.
For instance, there is about zero interest in managing British nationals who travel to the Middle East to further their indoctrination and create havoc in far off countries. UK continues to believe, that people can function as terrorists elsewhere, and as model citizens once back to council flats. The belief that UK is forever the aggressor who can manipulate every (inferior) people (and countries) without ever making itself vulnerable - has endured for centuries.
I suspect May will resend the white vans with loudspeakers urging all foreigners to return to their native lands - rather to the amusement of the bearded yahoos who advocate for the death and destruction of UK while living on the dole in Birmingham.
Kalidan
A closer examination of the public discourse occurring in the UK will show not just a wide variance in attitudes, it will highlight an almost frighteningly high level of smugness (some of it related to unabashed delight in watching other people suffer), a colossal failure to identify the real problems, and paralysis when it comes to actions. Much about the UK is intoxicating in its wonderfulness. But oh my god do the Brits debate the wrong questions a lot of the time, and fail to even acknowledge the existence of key issues.
For instance, there is about zero interest in managing British nationals who travel to the Middle East to further their indoctrination and create havoc in far off countries. UK continues to believe, that people can function as terrorists elsewhere, and as model citizens once back to council flats. The belief that UK is forever the aggressor who can manipulate every (inferior) people (and countries) without ever making itself vulnerable - has endured for centuries.
I suspect May will resend the white vans with loudspeakers urging all foreigners to return to their native lands - rather to the amusement of the bearded yahoos who advocate for the death and destruction of UK while living on the dole in Birmingham.
Kalidan
5
"For instance, there is about zero interest in managing British nationals who travel to the Middle East to further their indoctrination and create havoc in far off countries."
This because they are trained by M16 to go to the Middle East and help in the overthrow of governments that the US and UK happen to dislike at this moment in time. The Manchester Terrorist was well known to M16, and was given a Passport to go to Lybia to help in the overthrow of Gaddafi.
The CIA is well known for it´s practice of training terrorists all over the world and these are the people who are slaughtering innocents all over the West. Because of Geopolitical Interests of the Deep State this occasional blowbacks are swept under the rug.
This because they are trained by M16 to go to the Middle East and help in the overthrow of governments that the US and UK happen to dislike at this moment in time. The Manchester Terrorist was well known to M16, and was given a Passport to go to Lybia to help in the overthrow of Gaddafi.
The CIA is well known for it´s practice of training terrorists all over the world and these are the people who are slaughtering innocents all over the West. Because of Geopolitical Interests of the Deep State this occasional blowbacks are swept under the rug.
Many of the Muslim men from the ME living in the UK think the Brits are weak and naive.
Same with the Germans and Scandinavians.
Same with the Germans and Scandinavians.
To put things in perspective, consider Londoner's reaction to a gun crime level of Chicago. An American public & press seems to need to whoop up the terror outrage of foreign nations, while ignoring a US awash in drug and gun deaths, where 4th generation disability is a lifestyle in Appalachia, and college kids attack professors for free speech. Physician, heal thyself.
3
Trump's tweets were an embarrassment and so off-key. Someone take away his toy, please!!
3
If Corbyn wins you will have the self named friend of Hamas and Hezbollah along with the IRA running the country.
Hopefully better judgement will prevail.
Hopefully better judgement will prevail.
7
Mrs May, who, not long ago defended sharia courts in her country, now finally starts to understand that wrong tolerance towards people who hate the Western societal model so much that, at best, they create parallel structures for themselves or, at worst, try to destroy it, is not cultural sensitivity but stupidity. The UK more than any other country is a case study of everything that went wrong.
As the length of the text that can be written is limited, I give a few words to google, which show what happens when word like "democracy", "our values" "freedom of religion" are wrongly understood:
Rotherham abuse girls
Sharia courts England
Hate preacher England
Birmingham schools Islam
As the length of the text that can be written is limited, I give a few words to google, which show what happens when word like "democracy", "our values" "freedom of religion" are wrongly understood:
Rotherham abuse girls
Sharia courts England
Hate preacher England
Birmingham schools Islam
8
There are many public schools in England that have been "taken over" to allow Islamic culture to be taught. Those need to be restored to the common British curriculum. Multiculturalism can be accommodated, but a common education is needed to allow these "lost" first and second generation immigrants to assimilate enough to function in the society where they live.
6
I wouldn't make any conclusions on how they will move forward. They will adjust their approach. London Bridge was a bloody murder seen. They will not allow these evil attacks to continue. England is very upset.
3
Dear London:
Two American Anglophiles yesterday booked a vacation in London for October.
We will not forsake the land of Sherlock Holmes, Poldark, Hixley, Orwell, and a good pint. London withstood the bombings of WWII; all good people stand with you now.
Two American Anglophiles yesterday booked a vacation in London for October.
We will not forsake the land of Sherlock Holmes, Poldark, Hixley, Orwell, and a good pint. London withstood the bombings of WWII; all good people stand with you now.
3
There was a saying in kibbutz, don't be a fryer, there is not one iota of real physical scientifically provable biological chemical evidence, no debris no detritus nothing to claim an attack.
A deep naïveté is prevailing on anti-terror strategy of the West - they can not differentiate between the motivation of ISIS fighters and lone wolf terrorist. The ISIS fighters fight to set up an Islamic caliphate. The lone wolf fighters do destruction because of the jellusy and hate for Western life. There are about 23,000 UK citizens belong to the second class. It is impossible to stop them doing murderous acts when they are willing to sacrifice their life. The only force that can stop this madness is the family of these nuts. The strategy to counter this madness shouldinvolve the of family and that too in a non threatening manner. India is doing it - let West learn how to do that. The individualistic Western culture ignores the role of family in the Islamic society. It is family stupid.
1
"Trump... blamed political correctness for what he said is the world's weak response to terrorism..." Yup. NYT practices severe PC'ness whenever an attack occurs, as though it's a valid form of defense. When terror strikes the first knee jerk reaction of the left is to say, we must not get into hateful habits, etc. I truly believe that if you tend left, you are more interested in not offending the 99% of Muslims that are hopefully not inclined towards terror, (nor supporting it) as though that was an effective way to fight terror. Those who lean right are not at all concerned with not offending that 99% of Muslims but are committed to stopping the 1% that we believe would commit these acts whether the West hates us or not. By not wanting to offend that 99%, I and the right believe that you on the left are not as interested in stopping that 1% of actual terrorists, because if you were, you would not have a problem with multiple forms of profiling. You would not have such a problem with the travel ban. I can't tell you how happy many of us are on the right that Hillary didn't win and didn't get the chance to import over 100,000 refugees. Now I will hear the cry from the left, that I'm not compassionate, but read again what I wrote above, to understand what I think are valid reasons for not caving to sentimental compassion that lets in refugees who have not a shred of understanding of our Judaeo-Christian roots in our collective morality, and thus in our laws.
4
Dozens slaughtered in Britain, and the NYT runs a column on the political calculus...classy.
13
I have friends who live in Southwark, so for me, this latest attack was personal. But I still couldn't bring myself to justify Donald Trump's outlandish remarks and tweets, lambasting London's Mayor, Sadiq Kahn, while harping on about his own travel ban, and the need for less gun control.
If anything, this was an embarassment, as well as a reminder that this country is now at the mercy of someone who is clueless, as well tactless.
Granted, somethinghas got to be done. This is the second attack at the London Bridge, and it's coming only days after the incident in Manchester, but to a certain extent it is a British problem, and they will have to best find a way on how to deal with it. They will.
And in the meantime, Americans should be advised to remember that travel bans don't work, when the terrorists are home-grown.
If anything, this was an embarassment, as well as a reminder that this country is now at the mercy of someone who is clueless, as well tactless.
Granted, somethinghas got to be done. This is the second attack at the London Bridge, and it's coming only days after the incident in Manchester, but to a certain extent it is a British problem, and they will have to best find a way on how to deal with it. They will.
And in the meantime, Americans should be advised to remember that travel bans don't work, when the terrorists are home-grown.
34
FBI & police know about these people. they do nothing.
Immigration bans may work though.
As they have for generations, the British "Keep Calm & Carry On". This horrible attack brings out the best in Britain. Sadly, the worst it brought out was a "tweet" by this off kilter U.S. President who can't fathom why he's getting nothing accomplished and most of planet shakes their head in disgust. Character shows and lack of it even more.
Yes, these are tough times for Britain, but they will not only survive, but prosper in the long run. God bless you all and God Save the Queen!
Yes, these are tough times for Britain, but they will not only survive, but prosper in the long run. God bless you all and God Save the Queen!
25
The British are used to bringing terror to their colonial pets, puppets and dummies.
Who burned our White House?
Who burned our White House?
Horrific that President Trump politicized the ISIS attack in Manchester UK for his own nefarious ends. His grotesque Tweets did not convey condolences or assistance to the British people, but iterated his nasty "travel ban" plans instead of slamming the intrinsic evil ideology of Islamist extremism.and offering help to England. Is it just a question of time until terrorism touches us again here in America? Ravages our homeland, which cannot be protected against lone-wolf Muslim radicalized bombers, or bombers in fleets as the 19 Saudi Americans who decimated the World Trade Towers in hijacked Boeing 747s on 9/11 2001?
15
The House of Saud and the House of Trump are united.
Only 15 of the nineteen 9/11 hijackers were Saudis. None were Americans. Osama Bin Laden was Saudi. Osama was led to terror by the Saudis welcoming American arms and troops to the Kingdom during the First Gulf War under the senior Bush. The lead 9/11 hijacker and the current head of al Qaeda were and are Egyptians.
Those were not 747's on 9/11/01. They were 757's and 767's. A Presidential Daily Briefing warned 'Bin Laden Determined to Strike in America'.
Trump's German grandfather fled to America to avoid criminal prosecution for dodging the military draft. Are Ivana and Melania Trump legal 'model' immigrants entitled to citizenship in our America?
Only 15 of the nineteen 9/11 hijackers were Saudis. None were Americans. Osama Bin Laden was Saudi. Osama was led to terror by the Saudis welcoming American arms and troops to the Kingdom during the First Gulf War under the senior Bush. The lead 9/11 hijacker and the current head of al Qaeda were and are Egyptians.
Those were not 747's on 9/11/01. They were 757's and 767's. A Presidential Daily Briefing warned 'Bin Laden Determined to Strike in America'.
Trump's German grandfather fled to America to avoid criminal prosecution for dodging the military draft. Are Ivana and Melania Trump legal 'model' immigrants entitled to citizenship in our America?
Today I am British. I stand with all British citizens in their sorrow and grief over the loss of lives, of people whose promise was snuffed out, for the families who will not see their sons, daughters, mothers, spouses, etc., again. For those whose lives were changed because they were in the wrong place.
1
Strange that even here, the Times insists on making plain it's contempt of the left. No occasion is too solemn, apparently, to impugn anyone not on the right or center-right. Hillary and May or bust!
"To be sure", as the Times points out, "awfully little" was expected of Jeremy Corbyn.
Perhaps that's because the Times, along with its cohorts in Britain, simply can't bear the idea that anyone would ever think to disrupt the status quo?
"To be sure", as the Times points out, "awfully little" was expected of Jeremy Corbyn.
Perhaps that's because the Times, along with its cohorts in Britain, simply can't bear the idea that anyone would ever think to disrupt the status quo?
2
I am not advocating that citizens carry guns. Far from it. But we need to begin to train ourselves not to run away from, but to run towards, men with murder on their minds.
Three men on a Paris train last year prevented the killing of probably a dozen or more people. Two of them were, it's true, marines; one was not. But it could be that the only way to mitigate carnage from throat slashers is to mob them.
The teachers at Sandy Hook had the right idea: Rush towards the killer. Of course, there we had a man with a military-style rifle. Within minutes, he killed more than twice as many as died in London the other day.
For what it's worth, for years Israel has been dealing with knife- and machete-wielding terrorists -- also those who use cars and farming machines as weapons. Now it's come to us.
It's time to dispense with bouquets and teddy bears. It's time to behave like Sandy Hook teachers.
Three men on a Paris train last year prevented the killing of probably a dozen or more people. Two of them were, it's true, marines; one was not. But it could be that the only way to mitigate carnage from throat slashers is to mob them.
The teachers at Sandy Hook had the right idea: Rush towards the killer. Of course, there we had a man with a military-style rifle. Within minutes, he killed more than twice as many as died in London the other day.
For what it's worth, for years Israel has been dealing with knife- and machete-wielding terrorists -- also those who use cars and farming machines as weapons. Now it's come to us.
It's time to dispense with bouquets and teddy bears. It's time to behave like Sandy Hook teachers.
3
Adoption of your suggested approach would only maximize the damage. If crowds mobbed the terrorists, before long terrorists would wait to be mobbed and then when the crowd around them is biggest, trigger their suicide vests.
2
". It's time to behave like Sandy Hook teachers."
Or like the passengers on Flight 93 on 9-11-2001. Realizing that death was inevitable they took the dare and charged the hijackers hoping that perhaps they could change circumstances. They did not succeed but possibly they did change the the target the hijackers had in mind.
When the gunman entered the club in Orlando he was outnumbered almost 200 to 1. After the initial shock of the attack wore off they still had sufficient numbers to have stopped him. Instead we read of people hiding in the toilet texting while he was unable to fire because his gun had jammed.
Take advantage of the situation.
Or like the passengers on Flight 93 on 9-11-2001. Realizing that death was inevitable they took the dare and charged the hijackers hoping that perhaps they could change circumstances. They did not succeed but possibly they did change the the target the hijackers had in mind.
When the gunman entered the club in Orlando he was outnumbered almost 200 to 1. After the initial shock of the attack wore off they still had sufficient numbers to have stopped him. Instead we read of people hiding in the toilet texting while he was unable to fire because his gun had jammed.
Take advantage of the situation.
1
Until Islam addresses it's flaws and reforms we will have this problem. Nobody wants to talk about seriously reforming the faith. Even if a small minority of the faith hold these radical views it is thousands of people probably more that would carry out attacks. We need to stop this reflexive tendency to call it Islamophobia if you want to reform or moderate the faith. And yes I am aware of other religions problems and those should be addressed but the more pressing problem is with Islam.
15
I agree. But I would also argue that moderate Muslims too need to push for reform. Islamism is related to Islam. To call it a 'perversion of Islam', as Theresa May did the other day, opens the door to say it is not part of Islam. Well it emphatically IS a part of Islam and we all need to see that Islam has a big problem. I imagine that most muslims in the UK were shocked and appalled by the terrorist attacks. But do they see that their own 'moderate' attitudes are the thin end of the wedge? How many members of the muslim community are AGAINST gay marriage, apostasy, atheism, religious freedom, homosexuality, equality for women? How many of them are FOR the primitivism of Sharia (a man's testimony is worth twice that of a woman, a man can divorce a woman by saying 'talk' three times, the tactic of Taqiyya)?
We all, and most especially the muslim community, need to wake up to the problem of religion and Islam is unarguably the most dangerous of all religions today (though the climate-change denying, rapture-is-coming fundamentalist Christians that are polluting the American right might give them a run for their money).
We really need to all wake up to the reality. Islam needs reform for all of our sakes.
We all, and most especially the muslim community, need to wake up to the problem of religion and Islam is unarguably the most dangerous of all religions today (though the climate-change denying, rapture-is-coming fundamentalist Christians that are polluting the American right might give them a run for their money).
We really need to all wake up to the reality. Islam needs reform for all of our sakes.
2
It seems to me that, if I were a terrorist, I would target those groups and countries that can be expected to react most irrationally. If indeed this latest act is part of an organized effort, which remains to be seen, the clear objective given ISIS ceding territory and now seen in the Muslim world as losing in its effort to establish a caliphate, in fact its only option, is to draw western nations into the fight, thereby enhancing its effort to recruit and unite Muslim nations in its much desired holy war. As such, the attitude of British leaders, and especially the thoroughly British reaction of citizens as described in your companion editorial by a London Times columnist, is precisely the right one. Sooner or later, probably sooner, attacks that elicit a sane response from those determined to carry on with their lives will seek other targets. Unfortunately, I can think of one such ideal target.
Closing one's eyes and wishing that the threat weren't there doesn't make it go away. Turning the other cheek oftentimes results in the other cheek getting slapped. Making light of a bad situation allows for the situation to return. Running to take cover in the tube during WWII worked only because you could hear the planes coming. Either London deals with the problem or the problem will deal with London. In either case the status quo will not stand.
16
The U.S. must totally support Britain in its fight against terrorism. The U.S. can provide significant help to our long-standing ally in the areas of worldwide intelligence, military strength and hardware, and many other forms of assistance. Together we will fight terrorism in our two countries and throughout the world, and never stop working together, arm in arm, to combat this pestilence.
Britain and London, we are with you, through thick and thin.
Britain and London, we are with you, through thick and thin.
3
First, and foremost, i send my deepest thoughts and sympathy to all those directly affected and to all those who watch and give their own sympathies to them, and wish there was something they could do to help - as do we all. There are no words - just try to receive the good thoughts I - and millions of others - are sending out to comfort you.
We are all in the same place. Any of us could be victims of hate at any time. A drive by. A church or synagogue or mosque bombing where we attended or were walking by. A restaurant where we dined, a festival we attended, a street where we strolled - filled with wonder and love - about to be slaughtered in the name of religion.
I am an atheist. I do not believe in anything supernatural, so I find it particularly appalling that you "believers" are willing to kill one another because you don't believe in the "right" non-existent supernatural being. What waste and cruelty over the centuries in the name of the "right" non-existent being, what a cruel farce - and it continues in these "modern" days.
Christian against Christian (Ireland and England) Muslim against Muslim (Sunni and Shiite) Hate and fear and torture and killing and wars and terror all in the name of competing supernatural beings.
If everybody was an atheist, back to old Roman and Greek gods, just think of the lives saved, the materiel spent on growing crops and making life good instead of killing each other in the name of the supernatural you persist on foisting..
We are all in the same place. Any of us could be victims of hate at any time. A drive by. A church or synagogue or mosque bombing where we attended or were walking by. A restaurant where we dined, a festival we attended, a street where we strolled - filled with wonder and love - about to be slaughtered in the name of religion.
I am an atheist. I do not believe in anything supernatural, so I find it particularly appalling that you "believers" are willing to kill one another because you don't believe in the "right" non-existent supernatural being. What waste and cruelty over the centuries in the name of the "right" non-existent being, what a cruel farce - and it continues in these "modern" days.
Christian against Christian (Ireland and England) Muslim against Muslim (Sunni and Shiite) Hate and fear and torture and killing and wars and terror all in the name of competing supernatural beings.
If everybody was an atheist, back to old Roman and Greek gods, just think of the lives saved, the materiel spent on growing crops and making life good instead of killing each other in the name of the supernatural you persist on foisting..
16
Communism and Atheism was a unicorns dream come true
The overly-idealized Greeks and Romans weren't that good at universal peace, love and buttercups, either. It is not religion that decides us. It is lust for power and money that enables mistrust and manipulation. There's a lot of money and power to be had in manipulating prejudices and false patriotism. Yes, we must defend ourselves but we must also understand what atrocities our countries have committed in our name before we can change the manipulation of political leaders which results in the oh-so-profitable state of perpetual war. Religious extremism is the symptom, not the disease.
The Romans and Greeks were as religious as people today if not more.
One of the charges against the Christians by the Romans is that they were Atheists because they wouldn't sacrifice to the Roman gods especially if one of those gods was the present emperor.
One of the charges against the Christians by the Romans is that they were Atheists because they wouldn't sacrifice to the Roman gods especially if one of those gods was the present emperor.
The editorial pinpoints the dilemma: curtailment of civil liberties and democratic values would reduce terrorism, in the short run, but at what price? The second solution; namely have communities come together would be the answer but appears utopian in the current world and British political climate. Terror is all about geopolitics and marginalized peoples and communities. It may turn out that cures for malevolent diseases can be cured sooner and easier than the ills of societies. Terror is the new normal and unless it becomes much more pervasive will be with us for a long time and there will not be a solution.
1
"Disrupting democracy and undermining its values is surrendering to just what the terrorists want." Really? This is what the terrorists want? Every time they scream "kill the crusader" they really just haven't articulated their true thoughts well enough? What other group of people who regularly committed mass murder would be afforded so much quarter? President Trump put his target right in the crosshairs. It is about time we heard some frank responses from our elected politicians who seem content to sacrifice the citizenry for political correctness. Terrorists need to be driven out by whatever means necessary. This is war, not patty cake.
10
"....frank responses from our elected politicians who seem content to sacrifice the citizenry for political correctness"?
Whom for heaven's sake do you mean by that? The mayor of London, Kahn? Or both PM May and Mr. Corbyn?
We have a man at the helm of this country who tweets right after the attack in London not his condolences for that country, but about a travel ban being necessary here, albeit the fact that the terrorists in London were natives of the UK.
Whom for heaven's sake do you mean by that? The mayor of London, Kahn? Or both PM May and Mr. Corbyn?
We have a man at the helm of this country who tweets right after the attack in London not his condolences for that country, but about a travel ban being necessary here, albeit the fact that the terrorists in London were natives of the UK.
5
Nobody will be singing 'The Men Behind The Wire' for suspects in this wave of terrorism.
This concept that somehow terrorism can be dealt with like a virus or something is interesting. Trump wants to keep Muslims out of the US, and thinks the rest of the world should do the same. Many terrorist perpetrators are citizens of the countries they terrorize. It seems like Trump thinks we can just push all these people into a small area of the world and take them out with one mother of all bombs. Then wipe our hands and go home. Worked with Ebola, right? The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that terrorism will continue until the terrorists start having a hard time recruiting people because they have no results to recruit with. Killing a bunch of innocent people and then dying yourself has gotten attention, to be sure, but beyond that what do terrorists have to show for it? Sympathy for their cause? Greater political muscle? Entire nations joining their cause? Unless of course Western leaders start rounding up innocent Muslims, putting them in prisons , and /or deporting them. Then recruiting will be easy. And we will have a lot more to be worry about.
11
The religion of Islam confers sainthood and rewards those killed in the name of their god. In a bad mood: lash out in the name of Allah, literally or figuratively and you're golden.
In England there are public schools taken over by groups that help push this religion and way of life - get those back to standard curriculum with British teachers and watch the rate of radicalization drop. It's pretty clear a western education is not desired by the extremists who bomb schools in their home countries.
In England there are public schools taken over by groups that help push this religion and way of life - get those back to standard curriculum with British teachers and watch the rate of radicalization drop. It's pretty clear a western education is not desired by the extremists who bomb schools in their home countries.
3
Don't want to spoil the Islamic hate-fest but actual physical evidence does not exist.
Mrs May cries crocodile teas over "an evil ideology of Islamic extremism" that her nation helped to create by making a Devil's Pact with the House of Saud in the 1930s.
And, irony of ironies, the Saudi head-choppers, together with Britain, are pre-emptively pointing their bloody fingers at Qatar, even before the identities of the recent terrorists and their itineraries have been ascertained!
The events of just the past few weeks, from Trump's ridiculous sword dance to the politically charged and feigned anger of Mrs. May, have brought new meaning to the word hypocrisy. If Mrs. May wants to project 'righteous anger' why doesn't she break off relations with Saudi Arabia?
And Trump could set an example by returning the huge gold chain for which he bowed so low, both literally and metaphorically.
And, irony of ironies, the Saudi head-choppers, together with Britain, are pre-emptively pointing their bloody fingers at Qatar, even before the identities of the recent terrorists and their itineraries have been ascertained!
The events of just the past few weeks, from Trump's ridiculous sword dance to the politically charged and feigned anger of Mrs. May, have brought new meaning to the word hypocrisy. If Mrs. May wants to project 'righteous anger' why doesn't she break off relations with Saudi Arabia?
And Trump could set an example by returning the huge gold chain for which he bowed so low, both literally and metaphorically.
27
Right on!
The BP, British and American coup against democracy in Iran in 1953 that installed the Shah in power through America's alliance with Saddam Hussein's Iraqi war against Iran, the USN shooting down a civilian Iranian airplane, invading and occupying Iranian neighbors Afghanistan and Iraq followed by covert and overt cyber, drone and murder war against Iran.
Then there is Israeli terror, occupation, exile, blockade, second class citizenship and nuclear weapons supported by Britain and America. Along with America and Britain support Egyptian military dictatorship. There lies the roots of 9/11 and all that followed.
Iran and Iraq have elections.
The BP, British and American coup against democracy in Iran in 1953 that installed the Shah in power through America's alliance with Saddam Hussein's Iraqi war against Iran, the USN shooting down a civilian Iranian airplane, invading and occupying Iranian neighbors Afghanistan and Iraq followed by covert and overt cyber, drone and murder war against Iran.
Then there is Israeli terror, occupation, exile, blockade, second class citizenship and nuclear weapons supported by Britain and America. Along with America and Britain support Egyptian military dictatorship. There lies the roots of 9/11 and all that followed.
Iran and Iraq have elections.
6
Thank you for a voice of reason from Iran, and one that is based on history to boot.
3
Trump's twitter barrage against the London Mayor can only be called disgraceful, shameless, petty and yes racist. When he sees a "brown person" he obviously can't help himself. If anything Mr. Khan deserved empathy and support in his tireless effort to boost moral and restore some sense of normality again. Trump twisted his words and by that lied about the Mayor's response and view of terrorism. The British government should react swiftly and summon the US ambassador and demand a public apology from the president. His invitation to a state visit to the U.K. should be postponed for "scheduling" reasons.
15
Too much is being made about Trump's tweets and response to the tragedy in London and Manchester. Britain has a real problem on their hands and getting to the bottom of it and getting it resolved is paramount. Your obsessive Trump bashing is passé.
9
You have that wrong. Excessive bashing by Trump is passé.
While this is a reasoned and calming editorial, something is lacking both here and in other mainstream media! Where are the leaders, and I would expect the mullah's of the Islamic community coming out to condemn these atrocities?! If they are, they are not being publicized, and I sincerely believe lots of fair minded people have a problem with that! They should be at the forefront of condemnations, but I just don't see that! And, I believe that's reasonable.
13
This reader, who just happens to be in the U.K. at the moment, finds the people here, if they deign to register any reaction whatsoever, stirred rather than shaken.
9
The Brits should take a page out of the Trump playbook. Extreme vetting and temporary travel bans are the answer. Radical islamic terrorism is the greatest threat our world is facing, not global warming as the pajama clad snowflake crowd would have you believe. Supreme Court will uphold Muslim ban. Stay tuned.
27
The perpetrators were U.K. citizens. What do you propose? That all this with Muslim surnames be rounded up and deported? Presumably this would include the Mayor of London.
1
"Extreme vetting" has been in place for years. It takes approximately two years for a single person to "pass" the vetting process in order to gain admittance to the U.S. The "temporary travel ban" was supposedly to allow 90 days to re-evaluate the process. More than 90 days have passed, but has there been a re-evaluation. This is more than ample time to make any determination.
But the travel ban, which lists only Iran, Iraq, Syria, Sudan, Libya, and Somalia, does not include Saudi Arabia - the source of Osama Bin Laden and 15 of the 19 people to flew airplanes into the World Trade Center and into the Pentagon. Saudi Arabia is the home of the Wahhabi version of Islam, the most extreme teaching of the Califate, builders of madrassas through the middle and far east to propagate extreme Islam, and the early funding of ISIS, so why no travel ban on Saudi Arabia? Oh - oil and money!
Climate change means that there will be unusual weather patterns, droughts and sea rises. All of this is happening now with loss of crops and the lack of food that is driving people to migrate in search of food. The Syrian war started with loss of crops because of extreme heat, no rain, and people pouring into the cities, blaming the government for lack of food.
We will see more of this even as deniers call others names.
But the travel ban, which lists only Iran, Iraq, Syria, Sudan, Libya, and Somalia, does not include Saudi Arabia - the source of Osama Bin Laden and 15 of the 19 people to flew airplanes into the World Trade Center and into the Pentagon. Saudi Arabia is the home of the Wahhabi version of Islam, the most extreme teaching of the Califate, builders of madrassas through the middle and far east to propagate extreme Islam, and the early funding of ISIS, so why no travel ban on Saudi Arabia? Oh - oil and money!
Climate change means that there will be unusual weather patterns, droughts and sea rises. All of this is happening now with loss of crops and the lack of food that is driving people to migrate in search of food. The Syrian war started with loss of crops because of extreme heat, no rain, and people pouring into the cities, blaming the government for lack of food.
We will see more of this even as deniers call others names.
1
The Western world is perpetually under attack. If our Western way of life is worth defending, and it is, the leaders of the West have to start defending it, as was done in WWII against the Nazis.
The status quo is not working and change in strategy is sorely needed. Our close ally Israel can offer some advice - border control for starters. Israel is a democratic country under the rule of law, and their anti-terrorism measures, stronger than ours, are legal and mostly effective; along with a strong military, their survival depends on these measures. It has reached the boiling point in the West; the West should follow Israel's lead. It is long past time to take the gloves off.
Also, all those on a watch list should be detained as POWs via the war powers act. The West should no longer tolerate the enemy from within.
And stop demonizing President Trump, in piece after piece, often off topic. He is not the enemy. He wants to protect us from the enemy.
The status quo is not working and change in strategy is sorely needed. Our close ally Israel can offer some advice - border control for starters. Israel is a democratic country under the rule of law, and their anti-terrorism measures, stronger than ours, are legal and mostly effective; along with a strong military, their survival depends on these measures. It has reached the boiling point in the West; the West should follow Israel's lead. It is long past time to take the gloves off.
Also, all those on a watch list should be detained as POWs via the war powers act. The West should no longer tolerate the enemy from within.
And stop demonizing President Trump, in piece after piece, often off topic. He is not the enemy. He wants to protect us from the enemy.
35
Bravo!
10
Please, trump only cares about trump and a big pay check!
2
Shows what you know about President Trump MJ.
It's sad that 7 people have been murdered in London, thankfully my son was not one of them.
Consider this, there were 66 homicides in Detroit n the first 3 months of 2017 and in Flint (Pop 99,000), one person is killed every 6 days. Does president Trump even care about this?
Poverty kills many many more people in the USA every day than terrorism -
21% of all children in the US live in poverty but all the GOP seem to want is to take away all the basic safety nets and turn the savings into tax cuts for the rich.
Consider this, there were 66 homicides in Detroit n the first 3 months of 2017 and in Flint (Pop 99,000), one person is killed every 6 days. Does president Trump even care about this?
Poverty kills many many more people in the USA every day than terrorism -
21% of all children in the US live in poverty but all the GOP seem to want is to take away all the basic safety nets and turn the savings into tax cuts for the rich.
48
And, the cost of tea has risen by 3% in China Ted. Think about what you said please.
8
Right on Rob, the logic of some Americans to twist themselves to save their withering ideology is mind boggling. Political correctness will get more people killed.
16
Political correctness on the right, in the form of slavish devotion to the second amendment, is getting us killed to the tune of 30,000 a year.
I'm no fan of Trump, but even a stopped clock is right twice a day. Trump is not wrong to call out leaders who offer platitudes to citizens after yet another attack. Enough is enough just doesn't cut it anymore.
But this isn't about Trump, it's about leaders who cannot protect their citizens. Something more needs to be done otherwise everyone is a sitting duck.
But this isn't about Trump, it's about leaders who cannot protect their citizens. Something more needs to be done otherwise everyone is a sitting duck.
27
What would you suggest? Travel ban the world?
5
"But this isn't about Trump."
Absolutely correct. Unfortunately, Mr. Trump's tweets always twist things so that everything is indeed about him.
When infants wail because their diapers are wet, and their mothers change them into dry ones, they think they've done magic themselves, and don't put two and two together. It seems we've elected an infant to sit at the desk occupied by the likes of Teddy Roosevelt, FDR, Truman, and Ike. And even Nixon, who at least funded cancer research and the EPA.
Absolutely correct. Unfortunately, Mr. Trump's tweets always twist things so that everything is indeed about him.
When infants wail because their diapers are wet, and their mothers change them into dry ones, they think they've done magic themselves, and don't put two and two together. It seems we've elected an infant to sit at the desk occupied by the likes of Teddy Roosevelt, FDR, Truman, and Ike. And even Nixon, who at least funded cancer research and the EPA.
"for a travel ban on Muslims and argued that " - fake news! - the TB is on 6 or 7 middle east/african countries, it is not a muslim ban.
Can the NYT please be accurate in their news and editorials. At a minimum do that.
Can the NYT please be accurate in their news and editorials. At a minimum do that.
27
There is no easy solution to terror attacks. We can cut off funding, we can squash training camps, we can try to cut off recruiting, but in the end, an evil message just has to resonate with a crazy person, or an angry person, or a person who enjoys violence. ISIS discovered that you can outsource terror on the cheap.
Not being terrorized is the best action. The media feeding frenzy and the effect on elections is just exactly what a terrorist organization wants. But that is hard for people to overcome and impossible for a press that runs on sensationalism.
Terrorism is here to stay. It is as old as mankind - from the time one group tossed a plague ridden corpse over a city wall to the times that an occupying army shot every tenth villager to punish local partisan fighters. Asymmetrical warfare works.
We are going to have to learn how to deal with it. Maintaining calm is a good start; Tweet storms is not.
Not being terrorized is the best action. The media feeding frenzy and the effect on elections is just exactly what a terrorist organization wants. But that is hard for people to overcome and impossible for a press that runs on sensationalism.
Terrorism is here to stay. It is as old as mankind - from the time one group tossed a plague ridden corpse over a city wall to the times that an occupying army shot every tenth villager to punish local partisan fighters. Asymmetrical warfare works.
We are going to have to learn how to deal with it. Maintaining calm is a good start; Tweet storms is not.
81
There is no military solution to terrorism.
There are only socioeconomic, political, educational, commerce, aid and diplomatic solutions to terrorism.
As long as the only terrorized lives that matter by knowing their names and faces are all white European origin Jewish and Christian then terror will be forever. Either there is a Golden Rule that universally applies to all our brothers and sisters. Or not? Sowing the wind will reap the blowback whirlwind.
There are only socioeconomic, political, educational, commerce, aid and diplomatic solutions to terrorism.
As long as the only terrorized lives that matter by knowing their names and faces are all white European origin Jewish and Christian then terror will be forever. Either there is a Golden Rule that universally applies to all our brothers and sisters. Or not? Sowing the wind will reap the blowback whirlwind.
1
"Terrorism is here to stay" Garbage. Islamic fundamental terrorism has been allowed to root itself in Europe because for too long people have pandered to political islam and allowed muslims who follow it to live in free, liberal western societies. You don't see these kind of attacks in Hungary, do you. Nor in Japan. Nor in Switzerland. Because these countries are not stupid enough to allow mass immigration from muslim countries, and have politicians craven enough to think that these muslims will integrate, will appreciate the benefits of living in a liberal modern society. Doesn't happen, and the majority of these muslims, especially from the middle east have no intention of integrating into western society and accepting its values. "Asymmetrical warfare works". It does if you allow these cretins into your society. The alternative is to keep them out. It can be done.
nice to see that PM may has finally had "enough"...perhaps the times might to offer a survey of what she found ok until her "enough" alarm woke her up...
in response to a comment on a times piece on the terror attacks (westminster) suggesting a more military style of proactivity (as opposed to a law enforcement sort of reactivity) a second commentor demurred, such action "would lead to troops in the streets and a way of life we live in the west to avoid"...the writer of the first comment was urged to move to more authoritarian nation if he wanted to walk among troops in the streets.
in reply to that reply one need only offer the images of citizens of london walking in a column with their hands on their heads, the traditional posture of those under capture.
worth considering, as we praise london police for their prompt response to the perpetrators and their efficient post-incident raids and arrests (not to mention that the killers seem to have been on some "watchlist" or another) is the notion that proactiviy will put the "watched" in custody or, at least, impair their attacks.
so, more uniforms (blue and khaki) on patrol and in preemptive surveillance and siezure might be worth a try.
and, given their limited numbers, perhaps even a civilian auxillary cadre, already adept ex-military or law enforcement shooters, in the mingle, so that if "a guy with a knife walks into bar..."
in response to a comment on a times piece on the terror attacks (westminster) suggesting a more military style of proactivity (as opposed to a law enforcement sort of reactivity) a second commentor demurred, such action "would lead to troops in the streets and a way of life we live in the west to avoid"...the writer of the first comment was urged to move to more authoritarian nation if he wanted to walk among troops in the streets.
in reply to that reply one need only offer the images of citizens of london walking in a column with their hands on their heads, the traditional posture of those under capture.
worth considering, as we praise london police for their prompt response to the perpetrators and their efficient post-incident raids and arrests (not to mention that the killers seem to have been on some "watchlist" or another) is the notion that proactiviy will put the "watched" in custody or, at least, impair their attacks.
so, more uniforms (blue and khaki) on patrol and in preemptive surveillance and siezure might be worth a try.
and, given their limited numbers, perhaps even a civilian auxillary cadre, already adept ex-military or law enforcement shooters, in the mingle, so that if "a guy with a knife walks into bar..."
1
MAY Is in a state of great DISMAY. Let us hope that the voters in the UK realize that the Brexit will only increase social unrest, thereby increasing the likelihood of further alienation and radicalization of the disenfranchised, thereby increasing the probability of future attacks. As Marx said, each revolution plants the seeds of its own destruction; so it is with Brexit.
3
That is not credible. Brexit may be detrimental to the UK but this terrorism has nothing to do with Brexit. This is part of the same problem that resulted in many more and even more catastrophic attacks by radical Islamists in France as well as attacks in Germany, Belgium and elsewhere in Europe.
Your writing is incoherent. In order to support your idea you have to cite concrete examples beyond naming countries. For your information, my statement about Brexit was addressing the fact that it is causing stress and confusion among UK citizens. If you had listened to comments by those who voted in favor of Brexit, they made the claims that they resented having all the "foreigners" costing them money. They also complained about the EU imposition of economic policies. The UK is a special case, different from the other countries you list, because they are all committed to remaining in the EU, terror or no. The economic hardship that will be caused by Brexit is a form of economic terrorism.
1
There is nothing to fear but, perhaps.. the President of The United States, when he behaves like a petulant child. Especially on the international stage.
12
And the fact that the US and Britain have had a n outsized bootprint in the Middle East since the start of the invasion of Iraq is all but forgotten here. The bombs, the burnings, the killing of millions of civilians since 2001, the drones, and on and on. And the neatly dressed leaders of nations exclaim with high brow editorialists echoing not far behind 'enough is enough'.
7
When the US -and Britain -invaded Iraq in 2003, many people predicted that the most obvious outcome would be the unleashing of terrorism around the world. When big, powerful countries invade smaller ones without cause, killing thousands of civilians along the way, people somewhere else are bound to get angry enough to strike back. Admittedly, no one foresaw the perverse rise of the Islamic state or predicted the particular set of mental and sociological leaps whereby disillusioned young people in the Western world would adopt ISIS ideology and lash out in its name. But the idea that Westerners can kill Muslims in their own countries without there being some kind of blowback was, obviously, no longer easily applicable in a globalized world. In the 20th century, when Britain was slaughtering its way across Iraq and otherwise interfering in the Middle East, the consequences were easily contained. Today, the spread of the internet, the movement of people, and the increasingly cosmopolitan nature of modern societies has meant that containing the effects of actions in one part of the world is incredibly difficult. There is direct line between the US invasion and ISIS. The US rocked the boat in the Middle East in 2003; the ripples are still being felt. In Europe, angry and marginalized youth are radicalized and given a sense of purpose by murdering others. They think they are getting respect by being able to terrorize others. That sounds awfully familiar.
10
Lots of words that solve nothing. Kick them out of given them long prison sentences if they even associate with Isis one time.
6
To the editors,
After the terrorist attack in Paris which killed 12 at the "Charlie Hebdo" offices, the satirical newspaper that printed a cartoon of Allah, my car was graced with an "I AM CHARLIE" sticker to show support and sympathy to those innocents.
I will soon have an "I STAND WITH LONDON" sticker made to accompany it.
It seems we cannot stop cowardly attacks fomented by "leaders" who use religion as a recruiting tool such as gunmen in our country that murder abortion doctors or "white supremacists" who use race, religion and bullying to the same effect (Witness the thug in Portland who murdered two).
Perhaps it cannot be stopped. The "War on Crime' is endless and it appears the "War on Terror" will be likewise.
I would caution our leaders to not overreact but I'm afraid that advice is much too late. Mr. Trump and his Republican minions will use these attacks to further their agenda of distrust, hate and xenophobia while lining the pockets of themselves and their money laden benefactors.
For, you see, a frightened electorate is a pliable electorate and the GOP plans on taking full advantage of that.
After the terrorist attack in Paris which killed 12 at the "Charlie Hebdo" offices, the satirical newspaper that printed a cartoon of Allah, my car was graced with an "I AM CHARLIE" sticker to show support and sympathy to those innocents.
I will soon have an "I STAND WITH LONDON" sticker made to accompany it.
It seems we cannot stop cowardly attacks fomented by "leaders" who use religion as a recruiting tool such as gunmen in our country that murder abortion doctors or "white supremacists" who use race, religion and bullying to the same effect (Witness the thug in Portland who murdered two).
Perhaps it cannot be stopped. The "War on Crime' is endless and it appears the "War on Terror" will be likewise.
I would caution our leaders to not overreact but I'm afraid that advice is much too late. Mr. Trump and his Republican minions will use these attacks to further their agenda of distrust, hate and xenophobia while lining the pockets of themselves and their money laden benefactors.
For, you see, a frightened electorate is a pliable electorate and the GOP plans on taking full advantage of that.
4
We have to change the way we respond to these events. The common sense proposals Britain's Prime Minister put forth are a good start. Another would be to stop the wall to wall coverage of these events. They give terrorists a forum and a power which is out of proportion to their capabilities. You might look at the picture accompanying this editorial and see kindness, compassion, and determination. Extremists see upset children and people taken out of the comfort of daily living. They see victory.
Had the casualty totals in London come from a bus accident coverage of the event would be over by now. Had these casualties come in a month of gang violence in Chicago they would have passed with little note. But let three cowards drive a van off the street and then run about stabbing people and the world stands up and takes notice.
There is an element of exploitation here. Cable news networks use the dead and the ordeal of the living as an opportunity to boost ratings. All of the information learned in the first hours of such an event could be recounted easily in ten minutes. The "experts" tell us nothing we haven't heard a dozen times before. Our "12 year old in chief" sends out another insipid tweet. It's all so predictable and so very unnecessary.
Give us real news about preparedness. Tell us about the mass casualty threats and what is being done about them. But stop shamelessly exploiting every low scale incident. You over report, the terrorists win.
Had the casualty totals in London come from a bus accident coverage of the event would be over by now. Had these casualties come in a month of gang violence in Chicago they would have passed with little note. But let three cowards drive a van off the street and then run about stabbing people and the world stands up and takes notice.
There is an element of exploitation here. Cable news networks use the dead and the ordeal of the living as an opportunity to boost ratings. All of the information learned in the first hours of such an event could be recounted easily in ten minutes. The "experts" tell us nothing we haven't heard a dozen times before. Our "12 year old in chief" sends out another insipid tweet. It's all so predictable and so very unnecessary.
Give us real news about preparedness. Tell us about the mass casualty threats and what is being done about them. But stop shamelessly exploiting every low scale incident. You over report, the terrorists win.
6
if the media simply reported the deaths of those killed by terrorists outside the charmed bubble of western europe and the usa, the totals are sobering and some of the events, with hundreds killed and injured ain't so "low scale."
This is certainly a horrible and painful time for England. Hopefully, mature, calm heads will continue to prevail. That said, terrorist threat must be put in perspective. In terms of personal risk, far more people die in a week from citizen-perpetrated gun violence in Chicago alone (and many more nationally) than die in most terrorist attacks. For most of us (and likely folks in England) texting while driving is more likely to kill or maim us than are terrorists whether home grown or not. Even many of our terror attacks, Newtown, Aurora theater, VMA, Columbine, Oklahoma City, have been carried out by non-Muslim, natural born American citizens, not refugees, immigrants, or the children of recent immigrants.
Do we need to continue to do careful vetting? Of course, but let's not let the terrorists win, which is what we do when our response is to limit freedoms, pull up the draw-bridge and build fearful walls around our country.
Do we need to continue to do careful vetting? Of course, but let's not let the terrorists win, which is what we do when our response is to limit freedoms, pull up the draw-bridge and build fearful walls around our country.
2
I can't imagine how horrible Saturday night was for Londoners and visitors. Great Britain is our closest ally--it needs our support and condolences, and any useful suggestions they will need to move out of the desolation and fear gripping the country.
Instead, a fifth-grader in a 70-year-old man's body hurls insults at the London Mayor, himself a Muslim, and promotes his "travel ban," at least now calling it a ban. Trump's tweeting was despicable and self-serving: a microcosm of this selfish man who turns tragedy into fodder to feed his bigoted goals.
How would you like to have your house burn down, killing your family, and have Donald tweet criticisms of the home owner's insurance you have and why his policy is far better?
Instead of "I told you so," what London needs is empathy. Instead of suggestions to round up Muslims and boot them out of the country, London needs concrete offers of help in sharing strategies America developed in the wake of 9/11.
When I was a kid, my mother said over and over, "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything."
Wise woman, my mom. Some of Trump's sycophants, which now include reputable generals reduced to Trump apologists, should muster up the courage to tell Donald the same thing,
Instead, a fifth-grader in a 70-year-old man's body hurls insults at the London Mayor, himself a Muslim, and promotes his "travel ban," at least now calling it a ban. Trump's tweeting was despicable and self-serving: a microcosm of this selfish man who turns tragedy into fodder to feed his bigoted goals.
How would you like to have your house burn down, killing your family, and have Donald tweet criticisms of the home owner's insurance you have and why his policy is far better?
Instead of "I told you so," what London needs is empathy. Instead of suggestions to round up Muslims and boot them out of the country, London needs concrete offers of help in sharing strategies America developed in the wake of 9/11.
When I was a kid, my mother said over and over, "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything."
Wise woman, my mom. Some of Trump's sycophants, which now include reputable generals reduced to Trump apologists, should muster up the courage to tell Donald the same thing,
8
I didn't vote for Trump & I'm not a supporter of his policies. But I don't care what you want to call it anymore: heavy vetting, a travel ban, whatever... it's no longer business as usual. We can't let what happened in London happen here. All the hand-wringing that this latest outrage should not disrupt democratic values...really rings hollow right now. Our democratic values aren't threaten by trying to protect our citizens. We have a right...and more importantly a responsibility to carefully monitor who is coming into our country. If we don't Muslim fanatics will do the same thing here. This is what happens when radical Islam is tolerated by western culture that’s absurdly anxious to avoid offence & bends over backwards to be politically correct. At a certain point appeasement becomes revolting...we are there now. This strange, unwitting collaboration between liberals &extremists has been going on for years & years. After this weekend... it is over. Europe is reaping the harvest of multicultural policies that do not work...they have served to divide rather than unite. This is war...for Islamic terrorists it has been for decades. For them this is a fight to the finish by any means necessary. The terrorists will never stop killing until they lose the war. It is always safe to attack Trump...it gets a huge round of applause from the leftist peanut gallery. But it's pathetic. I challenge the NYT as well the people who comment to offer some sound answers to this problem.
23
1) We already have "heavy vetting" - it takes two years of document submission and multiple interviews to get in
2) You do realize that most of the recent attacks were perpetrated by citizens who were born in the respective country?
3) Fearfully blocking refugees does not make us safer, but it does support the radicals' teaching that there is a war between Islam and the west.
2) You do realize that most of the recent attacks were perpetrated by citizens who were born in the respective country?
3) Fearfully blocking refugees does not make us safer, but it does support the radicals' teaching that there is a war between Islam and the west.
8
Don't confuse anger and tough talk with solutions: what has Trump said or done that will actually address this problem?
Also, as Senator Murphy stated, can we take a breath and remind ourselves that "terrorists seek to instill a level of fear in the public disproportionate to the actual threat"? How many people die every day in car accidents? Domestic violence? Disease caused by poor air quality? Terrorism grabs the headlines, but the reality is we deal with far worse killers on a far more consistent basis. It's time that the media reaction to it, and knee-jerk reactions like yours, maintain some perspective.
Also, as Senator Murphy stated, can we take a breath and remind ourselves that "terrorists seek to instill a level of fear in the public disproportionate to the actual threat"? How many people die every day in car accidents? Domestic violence? Disease caused by poor air quality? Terrorism grabs the headlines, but the reality is we deal with far worse killers on a far more consistent basis. It's time that the media reaction to it, and knee-jerk reactions like yours, maintain some perspective.
2
The identity of the terrorists in this case is not disclosed, but in the two previous incidents none came from abroad, they were born here. The authors of 7/7 in London in 2007 were born here. The authors of 9/11 came from Saudi Arabia, yet those who support Mr Trump's travel ban have nothing to say that, for the sake of profit, Saudis are excluded from the proposed ban.
Your criticism of multi-culturalism, if by that you mean people of different origins or religion living as part of the same community, is in essence a praise of racism and xenophobia. All rapists are men, which doesn't mean that all men are rapists. Be clear about your own reasons and perhaps your argument will be clearer too.
Your criticism of multi-culturalism, if by that you mean people of different origins or religion living as part of the same community, is in essence a praise of racism and xenophobia. All rapists are men, which doesn't mean that all men are rapists. Be clear about your own reasons and perhaps your argument will be clearer too.
3
Keep letting these terrorists in the country.........this is what you get.
Control the borders and get the courts out of the way before this becomes a weekly occurrence here in the states as well.
Sadly, it will take a few of these animals walking into a few Starbucks with a backpack full of explosives before we see how stupid we are being.
Control the borders and get the courts out of the way before this becomes a weekly occurrence here in the states as well.
Sadly, it will take a few of these animals walking into a few Starbucks with a backpack full of explosives before we see how stupid we are being.
28
Hallelujah!
7
Somehow I find it hard to imagine our rhetoric at the beginning of World War 2 to be centered around "love, concerts, and hugging it out".
23
Since 2000, there have been about 20 terrorism deaths per year in Britain. The political impact of these attacks are way out of proportion to any other comparably rare cause of death. And so it is vital that leaders keep these matters in perspective and make it clear that aggressive anti-terrorism policies may be more of a threat to freedom than is justifiable.
3
In the fall of 1940, almost 80 years ago, Hitler's Nazis with Reichsmarschall Hermann Göring's Luftwaffe rained hell down on England killing 40,000 civilians, with their Battle of Britain blitz. Five years later Germany sent V1 and V2 rockets to kill 7000 more. The Brits, with the typical very long rod up their you-know-what's didn't give an inch, they gave Adolf the finger. Today's reaction from the British public and leadership, should reach back to their grandparents' response to a much, much larger threat.
6
The Grand parents of today’s Londoners bombed German cities into dust and joined allies in waging war across the globe, as they gave Hitler the finger.
7
I started to wonder if actually President Bannon is sending out all those tweets under Donald Trump's account.
It is almost like a remake of the movie Alien, only in this picture President Bannon has a attached himself to Donald Trump's brain, and is growing another lobe to become the alter-ego.
Something is not right with Trump's brain.
It is almost like a remake of the movie Alien, only in this picture President Bannon has a attached himself to Donald Trump's brain, and is growing another lobe to become the alter-ego.
Something is not right with Trump's brain.
6
I thought our Dear Leader had a plan for crushing ISIS. Where is it? What's taking him so long to put it into effect? Why are they still operating with impunity? How does Dear Leader have so much time to Tweet about terrorism, but not the time to actually address the problem? You know, a cynical individual might be tempted to think that Dear Leader never had a plan at all: that crushing ISIS was merely campaign rhetoric.
14
It's time for a full blown piece on the amount of funding Saudi Arabia has put into terrorism. We need to confront the devil standing beside us.
94
I for one will NEVER forget right after 9-11 the gathering of Saudi nationals and royal family members on US soil and then the expedient transporting of them out of the country, while we had a complete total shutdown of the airways for everyone else. in the entire nation.
Nobody has ever quite explained that one.
Nobody has ever quite explained that one.
1
Donald Trump has every right to criticize London's mayor. Less than a month after a terrorist attack mowed down people on a London bridge ANOTHER London bridge is left unprotected and attacked. Both Theresa May and the mayor of London have failed to adequately protect their citizens. At a minimum they should have erected barriers in city bridges to protect people.
17
Do you realise how big London is? 10 million people live there. It would be impossible to protect every road and bridge from a van being driven at pedestrians. The armed response was 8 minutes. Also I bet the vast majority of Londoners wouldn't want barriers on the historic bridges.
25
dr. M - unfortunately he criticized him for the wrong reason. He happens to be Muslim and we know how Trump feels about his being Mayor. Barriers won't
do it anyway, these terrorists have secret lives, often unrecognized by their own
family and friends. Its much more complex than erecting barriers. Trump, if he
were a decent man ,would have sent an expression of sympathy to the Mayor, but
he is an ill mannered boor and shows it whenever compassion is called for.
do it anyway, these terrorists have secret lives, often unrecognized by their own
family and friends. Its much more complex than erecting barriers. Trump, if he
were a decent man ,would have sent an expression of sympathy to the Mayor, but
he is an ill mannered boor and shows it whenever compassion is called for.
35
Not erecting barriers on bridges with heavy foot traffic is negligent.
Our profound grief is even more shaken by America's retreat: blame and fear are never a solution to the human evils of maddness, anger, and fear; ignorance is never a basis for peace.
Our vigilance must match our faith. Our losses and trails must strengthen our resolve. Justice, yes; judgment, yes--not blame.
Our vigilance must match our faith. Our losses and trails must strengthen our resolve. Justice, yes; judgment, yes--not blame.
5
@Walter Hett: As my late, regretted Calvinist mother would say if she read such platitudes,"Give it a rest!" Such bromides, banalities as "our vigilance must match our faith," or "ignorance is never a basis for peace" are of little consolation to those victims of terrorist attacks in Britain, which are occurring with increasing frequency.Blame the political elites in Old Blighty, in the US and throughout the Western world who have imposed political correctness on us, intimidating us into remaining silent in the face of terror coming from those who are unassimilated to our way of life. Sooner or later we will all be living in a "surveillance state,"and our c-in-c's hard line approach to the threat of terrorism will gain increasing acceptance His presence in the political arena is an "avant gout" of things to come. In 1970's, Henry Kissinger predicted that as trans national terrorism posed a greater threat, it would be met by increased surveillance of average citizens, which is the present reality.Recall "Battle of Algiers(1956-1959) really a police action undertaken by Massu's 10th Paratroop Regiment in response to FLN cafe bombings in Algiers was not won by observing civil rights of suspects. Massu's "paras" killed more "fells" than "fellaghas!" Grosso modo, 4000 corpses turned up in morgues, all of whom with alleged ties to the FLN. "The future is ghastly" predicted late Joseph Alsop, long before ISIS was even thought of.
2
We are British. We have lived side by side peacefully for generations with people of different races, ethnicities, and religions. 99.999% of us get on swimmingly. The very vast majority all hold the same values and if we don't we are tolerant of their views. Islamic State is not going to change that. I need to watch my language but I feel very passionate that these terrorists can go up themselves if they think they can change us. WE WILL NOT SURRENDER. WE WILL GO ON. I LOVE THIS COUNTRY.
45
Your passion is to be admired, your sentiments are wonderful, and we all stand with you, but you have to realize the body (whole) has been infected. We need to fight, and we all need to develop the right attitude to fight, the infection will not simply disappear on its own. Radical Islamic terrorism must be seen for what it is, and destroyed completely.
16
But ignoring it is naive and will not make it go away. Accepting it is a weakness.
Sometimes fire must be fought with fire.
Sometimes fire must be fought with fire.
1
And as London mourns its dead and injured with solidarity and stoicism, perhaps it is time for Theresa May to also say "Enough is Enough!" to Donald Trump for again targeting London's mayor Sadiq Khan with false and inflammatory tweets. Much is made of the "special relationship" between the U.S. and Great Britain, but friends don't attack friends this way after tragic events in order to make political capital for their domestic audience. Trump has no shame, but surely Ms. May does.
60
Of course, Trump had nothing but praise for Saudi Arabia, which is the main source of terrorism in the world.
Are we allowed to say that yet?
Are we allowed to say that yet?
120
Why are you implying that Trump is friendly with Saudi, but omitting that Obama was friendly as well - even bowing before the kind and sending his wife home early so as to not offend. I do agree they are the a key source of radical Islam spreading, but this is more about longterm policy that must change vs. Trump.
The time is now for Mohammedanism to evolve by its own hands and through its own peculiar variation of the Reformation. By necessity, this must be a western evolution, an evolution of Mohammedanism to be introduced and applied as Islamic practice in our western democracies.
What makes a western democracy? Whether Australia, UK, France, US, etc., the common thread is our secular state. Our freedom to practice (or not) a religion of choice UNDER secular Law. Sharia, just like Papal decree, does not, and cannot, carry force of Law. Subjugation of religion under secular Law MUST be central to this new branch of evolved Islam.
By all means Sharia may be continue to be practiced in Muslim majority countries as is their whim, but if Islam (in any sense) is to survive in the west, it must adapt and evolve. Live by our rules, live by our Laws or perish - our Laws are secular, period.
This movement to evolve (in the West) must come from the people of Islam here present in our Nations, they must reject violence loudly without equivocation, and they must condemn *in one voice* ALL acts of radical Islamic terrorism. They must stand as Americans, or as British, or as Germans, else they are condemned to be marginalized and tarred with the same brush by association.
Islam in the US must find their own version of George Washington, a leader who, in his authority, serves the greater good by returning the very authority he is granted, back to those he would serve. Does such a person exist?
What makes a western democracy? Whether Australia, UK, France, US, etc., the common thread is our secular state. Our freedom to practice (or not) a religion of choice UNDER secular Law. Sharia, just like Papal decree, does not, and cannot, carry force of Law. Subjugation of religion under secular Law MUST be central to this new branch of evolved Islam.
By all means Sharia may be continue to be practiced in Muslim majority countries as is their whim, but if Islam (in any sense) is to survive in the west, it must adapt and evolve. Live by our rules, live by our Laws or perish - our Laws are secular, period.
This movement to evolve (in the West) must come from the people of Islam here present in our Nations, they must reject violence loudly without equivocation, and they must condemn *in one voice* ALL acts of radical Islamic terrorism. They must stand as Americans, or as British, or as Germans, else they are condemned to be marginalized and tarred with the same brush by association.
Islam in the US must find their own version of George Washington, a leader who, in his authority, serves the greater good by returning the very authority he is granted, back to those he would serve. Does such a person exist?
18
I keep wondering why President Trump and the US continue to solely go after Iran for spreading terrorism when the one country that has done and continues to do most to spread the vile philosophy that mainly the IS ethos is based on gets 100Bn in weapons i.e. Saudi Arabia? Iran's elections are to put it mildly flawed but there are elections, Saudi Arabia has no elections to speak of. This morning the country decided it wants to isolate Qatar for "spreading terrorism" with that I suppose they mean that as Qatar supports a reasonably free press. Al Jazeera is the one Wire Service in the Middle East with a real degree of independence and integrity in its reporting. We cannot win the fight against terrorism if we do not confront those who carry a significant responsibility for laying the foundations for such terrorism in the first place. Just as Iran is being called to account, so should Saudi Arabia!
9
Reading this article shows that the NY Times editors still refuses to see the facts. Though the editors finally accepted that "Islamist extremism" should be used they deny the reality and the extent of the problem. President Trump is absolutely right in his campaign against "Islamist extremism" and only imposing draconian measures against these terrorists will work. Hopefully the world starts to understand it, even Arab nations start to understand it and vomiting Qatar is the first sign. 15 African Muslim countries invite Netanyahu to speak to them in spite of all the venom from the Muslim world against Israel. President Trump does not suggests to disrupt democracy or undermine values, he wants to protect Americans (and people around the world as well) from being butchered by Islamist extremists and there is no way to do it but by imposing draconian measures against these terrorists. What we see in England, France and other places in Europe is just the beginning and the editorial board should open his eyes and support the President.
25
So, Trump is doing a good job when grovelling before the Saudis? Isn't it correct to say that the most vile exponents of Islamist terrorism around the world are Sunni (and supported vigorously by the ruling dynasties in the Gulf states) and NOT Shia? Blaming Iran is an easy out. Hardly anyone in Europe or the US has fallen victim to Shia inspired terrorism.
Besides, more and more the terrorists are home-grown and radicalize without ever setting foot in a majority Muslim country. Perhaps we should deny the whole Muslim migrant community their democratically guaranteed rights and bring them together in special locations, for their own protection? How about asking them to register at the police station, just for administrative follow-up? The US Census Bureau is apparently contemplating taking the lead by devising the MENA classification... Who knows, at some future date they could be asked to voluntarily wear an easily recognizable emblem on their clothes. A green crescent moon, maybe?
Besides, more and more the terrorists are home-grown and radicalize without ever setting foot in a majority Muslim country. Perhaps we should deny the whole Muslim migrant community their democratically guaranteed rights and bring them together in special locations, for their own protection? How about asking them to register at the police station, just for administrative follow-up? The US Census Bureau is apparently contemplating taking the lead by devising the MENA classification... Who knows, at some future date they could be asked to voluntarily wear an easily recognizable emblem on their clothes. A green crescent moon, maybe?
7
The once fabled ‘Ugly American’ is making a bold reappearance in the world of the Twitter.
3
"You know, I'm, like, a smart person". Donald Trump.
To be fair to Trump, he didn't actually say he's a smart person. Just that he's like one. Like, presumably, in the sense of his chromosome count...
Trump's despicable tweets can only be interpreted four ways:
1. Trump needs reading comprehension skills to understand what Sadiq Khan meant in his reassurance to Londoners.
2. Trump needs medication for his limited attention span to not be able to follow through what the London Mayor said in full.
3. Trump can't get over a personal vendetta with Khan even in a matter of national grief for a close ally. So, his lack of empathy may require engagement from a qualified therapist.
4. Trump was deliberately misquoting the mayor to cater to his low information and Islamophobic voter base. That Trump lies, is not news to anyone who's followed his politics over the years starting from the birther controversy.
Under which of the above 4 scenarios, would the American public take comfort about the ability of their president to live up to the demands of the office he's occupying?
To be fair to Trump, he didn't actually say he's a smart person. Just that he's like one. Like, presumably, in the sense of his chromosome count...
Trump's despicable tweets can only be interpreted four ways:
1. Trump needs reading comprehension skills to understand what Sadiq Khan meant in his reassurance to Londoners.
2. Trump needs medication for his limited attention span to not be able to follow through what the London Mayor said in full.
3. Trump can't get over a personal vendetta with Khan even in a matter of national grief for a close ally. So, his lack of empathy may require engagement from a qualified therapist.
4. Trump was deliberately misquoting the mayor to cater to his low information and Islamophobic voter base. That Trump lies, is not news to anyone who's followed his politics over the years starting from the birther controversy.
Under which of the above 4 scenarios, would the American public take comfort about the ability of their president to live up to the demands of the office he's occupying?
8
In periods of stress people favor the government that is to the one that might be; these events likely will help May in her ill timed election where she holds so few seats that a Labour gain could result in a locked parliament, a weak tool in the coming battle with the EU. It is possible that these foul events may have been a fortuitous event for Britain taken as a whole in History’s on going events if any pleasure can be found in that.
You would think after the "Brexit" vote
and the 2016 Election, the Editorial Board of the NY Times
would have learned not to predict elections.
As for terrorists, homebred or not, a stand needs to be taken.
If you visit the websites, if you visit the camps, if you advocate violence
you will be sent to the nearest terrorist camp and your passport destroyed.
and the 2016 Election, the Editorial Board of the NY Times
would have learned not to predict elections.
As for terrorists, homebred or not, a stand needs to be taken.
If you visit the websites, if you visit the camps, if you advocate violence
you will be sent to the nearest terrorist camp and your passport destroyed.
10
If only I didn't have to keep apologizing to my British friends for the childish blurts of our president. Can no one take his Twitter account away, while we still have a shred of respect abroad? The mayor of London had it about right when he said he had more important things to do than to respond to Trump's inane and opportunistic driveling.
4
You don't have to apologise to us. After all, we don't apologise for Nigel Farage. ;-)
In fact, we just set him up with a pint and a cigarette in a Kentish pub and laugh at him.
In fact, we just set him up with a pint and a cigarette in a Kentish pub and laugh at him.
3
It's too bad Donald Trump doesn't just embarrass himself with his stupid, inappropriate tweets. But he has to drag us down with him.
Approval rate: 37%. Must be setting the record for fastest, most elevated drop in approval. Of course criticizing and turning allies against the US would be somebody else's fault, right?
How dare he insult Britain after sustaining once again such horror. We Americans sincerely extend our condolences.
Approval rate: 37%. Must be setting the record for fastest, most elevated drop in approval. Of course criticizing and turning allies against the US would be somebody else's fault, right?
How dare he insult Britain after sustaining once again such horror. We Americans sincerely extend our condolences.
5
When will May or another major Western leader call out trump for his bizarre, stupid, narcissistic Twitter rants. Why not in public tell little donald to shut his stupid mouth?
1
Firstly, my deepest sympathies to the people of Great Britain. The world is standing with you.
Secondly, the British will handle these attacks with grace, fortitude and the infamous British "stiff upper lip". Great Britain has an expert police force, politicians that work together and a population that resisted past attacks for years (the IRA) with the unified philosophy that terrorism must never win.
I remember my first visit to London many years ago when no trash cans were allowed in train stations (fear of IRA bombs). I have heard stories from friends of hearing IRA bombs explode in the City of London but always remaining adamant that terrorism was never going to change their ways of living.
Britain will work collectively together to defeat the ISIS menace and win.
I only wish I had the same optimism for our own government. Divisive presidential tweets only make us weaker in trying to combat global threats and in losing the respect of our allies. By having a president who plays to our fears, the terrorists are already winning by dividing us.
Secondly, the British will handle these attacks with grace, fortitude and the infamous British "stiff upper lip". Great Britain has an expert police force, politicians that work together and a population that resisted past attacks for years (the IRA) with the unified philosophy that terrorism must never win.
I remember my first visit to London many years ago when no trash cans were allowed in train stations (fear of IRA bombs). I have heard stories from friends of hearing IRA bombs explode in the City of London but always remaining adamant that terrorism was never going to change their ways of living.
Britain will work collectively together to defeat the ISIS menace and win.
I only wish I had the same optimism for our own government. Divisive presidential tweets only make us weaker in trying to combat global threats and in losing the respect of our allies. By having a president who plays to our fears, the terrorists are already winning by dividing us.
95
The British "stiff upper lip" is famous rather than infamous in my opinion. It is reflective of the British will to overcome adversity. During World War II, Hitler thought the London blitz would bring bBritain to it's knees. Instead, it stiffened the resolve of the Brits. I like to believe that New York City exhibited the same resolve after 9/11.
Will Britain work collectively to defeat the ISIS menace and win?
They sure haven't been doing a bang up job over the past couple of decades or so. If anything the IS threat has increased ten fold. The UK is naive and kept letting terrorists return into their country and allowing unfettered Muslim immigration. We will see if they have it in them to turn things around. Sadly it seems as if they are losing right now.
Enough is enough doesn't hurt them enough.
They sure haven't been doing a bang up job over the past couple of decades or so. If anything the IS threat has increased ten fold. The UK is naive and kept letting terrorists return into their country and allowing unfettered Muslim immigration. We will see if they have it in them to turn things around. Sadly it seems as if they are losing right now.
Enough is enough doesn't hurt them enough.
1
So last centuries response headline on your front page. As though Britain was the only country attacked by terrorists, not France or our own country the U.S.A. No wonder Donald Trump ("Make America Great Again") is our President and not someone with more international interests like Hillary Clinton. At least he's got the right message to sell. US! It's so USA to respond that we're going to win this fight against terrorism or no one will win. Why? Because we're Americans, and we deserve to win.
2
Trump, as much as I loathe him, may not win any awards for oratory, but he's right. You don't kill cancer with aspirin and piecemeal pronouncements about values don't get the job done. FDR knew that whining about "a day that will live in infamy" is worthless without the teeth of action.
You know who lives for principles. Vegans. Now if a vegan is in a zoo with an escaped hungry tiger running after her, but she has a gun, what is she going to do? Stick to her values and not harm the tiger? If she does, she's dead and her sticking to her values becomes meaningless. Instead, her instincts kick in and she shoots the tiger because there's a difference between ideals and reality and, in the long run, reality always wins. Ask Neville Chamberlain about it. Ask FDR about it. Ask ISIS about it.
Do what's necessary.... because that's what's necessary.
You know who lives for principles. Vegans. Now if a vegan is in a zoo with an escaped hungry tiger running after her, but she has a gun, what is she going to do? Stick to her values and not harm the tiger? If she does, she's dead and her sticking to her values becomes meaningless. Instead, her instincts kick in and she shoots the tiger because there's a difference between ideals and reality and, in the long run, reality always wins. Ask Neville Chamberlain about it. Ask FDR about it. Ask ISIS about it.
Do what's necessary.... because that's what's necessary.
16
Except, there is a huuuuge factor at play: Trump. His obnoxious tweeting and self-aggrandizing behavior makes her look like Churchill, in comparison. Truly an embarrassment for America, but excellent for her.
4
Believe me, we have primary school children who look like Churchill when ranged against Trump.
5
Two attacks in a week. "Trying times" for the U.K. perhaps, but a welcome respite for Baghdad where they suffer similar or incremental attacks on a daily basis.
But let's airbrush or ignore the much greater carnage in countries we invaded and destabilized. It could prompt an unpleasant conversation about cause, effect and blowback.
But let's airbrush or ignore the much greater carnage in countries we invaded and destabilized. It could prompt an unpleasant conversation about cause, effect and blowback.
2
Shocking to know the brutal incident in London last night. This is a barbaric act & must be condemned at every level. Whosoever is behind this attack must be punished with iron-hands. Religion teaches us love the humanity & this is true with all religions. Global leaders should dig out the root cause for this awful atrocity and manage it making the earth safe for everyone.
1
I admire the British for their restraint and courage against terrorist acts in their country. That the candidates for Prime Minister are not using two horrific incidents for political advantage must be congratulated. But I worry greatly what will happen if a similar terrorist attack happens here in America. We have a President who will take political advantage every way he can and whip up his supporters with hate and Islamophobia. And judging from the kind of rallies he held during his campaign, they will respond wildly. Trump will blame his political opponents, the courts and Congress for not giving him everything he wants. Will martial law be far behind? Will our democracy be able to survive this?
60
Hi Jeff,
Good points, but I think that Theresa May is using these attacks for political advantage and that she has no choice because they represent political failure on her part. When she was Home Secretary, her brief included domestic intelligence which has clearly failed in these attacks. Security agencies were advised about individuals and failed to act. The Conservatives realise that, in an election week, terrorism has revealed itself as a liability towards a majority government and, perhaps, even a potential of electoral defeat.
Good points, but I think that Theresa May is using these attacks for political advantage and that she has no choice because they represent political failure on her part. When she was Home Secretary, her brief included domestic intelligence which has clearly failed in these attacks. Security agencies were advised about individuals and failed to act. The Conservatives realise that, in an election week, terrorism has revealed itself as a liability towards a majority government and, perhaps, even a potential of electoral defeat.
1
Declaring a 'State of Emergency' will likely precede declaration of 'Martial Law'.
If Trump could only manufacture an attempt to burn the Capitol or a hit on Steve Bannon he would not need any foreign help.
If Trump could only manufacture an attempt to burn the Capitol or a hit on Steve Bannon he would not need any foreign help.
1
If terrorists think they will bring England and its people to their knees, they might like to look up a little dust-up from World War II called the Battle of Britain.
1
The British are one or two attacks from being on the ropes . If there are more attacks over the next month we will see if a liberal democracy has the guts to do what ever it takes to crush Islamic extremists . This would include curbing individual rights. Everything else is just talk. Without crisis, talk is about all that western democracies are good at.
5
"On the ropes"? The British were "on the ropes" when the Nazis were flattening their (our) cities from the air. Luckily those ropes were very elastic. The British (we) are just dancing around the ring like Mohammed Ali (a truly great Muslim) and shouting: "Is that all you got?"
2
The case is growing everyday with every attack on ordinary innocent people.
In particular, Western democracies the solution lies not policing more than what we are doing now.
Look, Saturday Police shot first terrorist 8 minutes after the first call placed police emergency line. Come on guys Police cannot be faster react than this one. This is a record.
Now the problem , How we can weed out these degenerates from the Muslim minorities in western world.
Look, Muslim's are not feeling good at all either, every attack makes their existence in western society more stained, plus they were persecuted.
Police , intelligence agencies should go in to this minorities, make a deal and collaboration, preemptively interfere with some body is already starting radicalized.
In London terrorist , they are allegations , other people alarmed to police two times about one the terrorist.
And Yes This type of attack also Internet service providers responsibility too. There is a ISIS video in You tube and not taken out, what we are expecting. self correction from the degenerates. please.
This lone wolf type of or very small cell activities can be stopped only by communities of minorities, but their safety must be assured. These people kil any body any time.
In particular, Western democracies the solution lies not policing more than what we are doing now.
Look, Saturday Police shot first terrorist 8 minutes after the first call placed police emergency line. Come on guys Police cannot be faster react than this one. This is a record.
Now the problem , How we can weed out these degenerates from the Muslim minorities in western world.
Look, Muslim's are not feeling good at all either, every attack makes their existence in western society more stained, plus they were persecuted.
Police , intelligence agencies should go in to this minorities, make a deal and collaboration, preemptively interfere with some body is already starting radicalized.
In London terrorist , they are allegations , other people alarmed to police two times about one the terrorist.
And Yes This type of attack also Internet service providers responsibility too. There is a ISIS video in You tube and not taken out, what we are expecting. self correction from the degenerates. please.
This lone wolf type of or very small cell activities can be stopped only by communities of minorities, but their safety must be assured. These people kil any body any time.
1
"... stopping terrorism without sacrificing democratic values" -- no democratic values should be applied to dealing with those who are bent on destroying democracy by -- to put it very mildly -- non-democratic means. Great Britain is now paying for its permissive immigration policy and the pernicious political influence of the "touchy-feely", "goody-goodies", and "coochiemoochies".
3
Britain has a ghastly 20,000 Islamic terrorist jihadi supporters on their watchlist. Extraditing this list with firmness and humanity represents a fabulous solution. Flying them in to Syria is good. They will have no U.K. Passport. And no way to enter the U.K. Legally again. I'm a serious and kind person.
2
The NYT continues denying reality. Trump's tweets were spot on.
16
It has a habit of doing that these past few years and, as a member of the Fourth Estate, has certainly helped contribute to the problems we have. *cough* torpedo Bernie *cough*
3
Britain has been through worse: the Irish offensives during the Troubles killed and maimed thousands. The difference is that there was no overtly racist talk of mass internment, or persecution of the Irish. This modern offensive is liberally attributed to Islam as a religion and the colour of the skin of its main protagonists. As an expatriate Briton, I am shocked and horrified by events, but I am also painfully aware that this debacle is caused by crushing invasions of the Middle East. Multitudes of civilians have died in Afghanistan and Iraq this week alone in the deadly vacuums left by western military adventurism,
The West is in a political quagmire, not caused by Islam, but by its own horrific leadership and inept vindictiveness that has allowed the suppression of the working class and turned them into angry neo-fascists. Ethnic groups have fared no better against the establishment as their ancestral lands have been shocked and awed by bloody wars. The solution to Northern Ireland was pragmatic political dialogue. The solution to this will be too. Let the talking begin.
The West is in a political quagmire, not caused by Islam, but by its own horrific leadership and inept vindictiveness that has allowed the suppression of the working class and turned them into angry neo-fascists. Ethnic groups have fared no better against the establishment as their ancestral lands have been shocked and awed by bloody wars. The solution to Northern Ireland was pragmatic political dialogue. The solution to this will be too. Let the talking begin.
73
"The IRA never targeted children and young girls!"
Well, the KKK targeted children and young girls. For decades. And White Supremacists still do. Much of the civilian loss of life in the misbegotten Iraq War was that of "children and young girls".
Well, the KKK targeted children and young girls. For decades. And White Supremacists still do. Much of the civilian loss of life in the misbegotten Iraq War was that of "children and young girls".
In addition to the various invasions in the Middle East over the last 25 years, there is the earlier colonial occupation mainly by Britain and France in the region and then the arbitrary boundaries that were drawn at the end of WWI which left the Sunni and Shia and other populations scattered to the wind and subject to the whims of whomever ruled that country.
Check out the Birmingham pub bombings or the Warrington bombing.
Trump was right about everything he said on twitter, bizarre or not.
13
He CERTAINLY wasn't right in what he said about Saddiq Khan because he only very selectively quoted him. Think again.
3
"Disrupting democracy and undermining its values is surrendering to just what the terrorists want."
Nonsense.
What the terrorist wants is for the West to be on its knees or dead. The terrorists hate us, not because of our democratic values, but because of our "sinful" Western lifestyle that contradicts their narrative of what the world order should be. The fact that sinful infidel not just survives, but thrives, far beyond the "true believer" is the ultimate heresy. Our successful existence which drives them mad, compounded by the failure and shame in their personal life, and yet the infidel just parades proudly past, flaunting sin and tempting the "believer."
The notion that we can defeat this mortal enemy without the loss of civil liberties and collateral damage is a dangerous fantasy. That is fighting to proudly lose, rather than to painfully win. There is no pretty way out of this. The addiction to superficial, feel-goodism at all costs is the modern West's Achilles heel, and they know it. We should learn from past mistakes, and fight smarter, but the fight ahead will still be ugly.
We need large margins of error on the side of our children's safety over some losing rights and the inevitable collaterally damage. Much larger than anything we are debating right now. We just haven't had a big enough one yet to imagine the choices we are really up against. Maybe we will get lucky. Maybe not. I say we have seen enough to avoid risking the very real possibility.
Nonsense.
What the terrorist wants is for the West to be on its knees or dead. The terrorists hate us, not because of our democratic values, but because of our "sinful" Western lifestyle that contradicts their narrative of what the world order should be. The fact that sinful infidel not just survives, but thrives, far beyond the "true believer" is the ultimate heresy. Our successful existence which drives them mad, compounded by the failure and shame in their personal life, and yet the infidel just parades proudly past, flaunting sin and tempting the "believer."
The notion that we can defeat this mortal enemy without the loss of civil liberties and collateral damage is a dangerous fantasy. That is fighting to proudly lose, rather than to painfully win. There is no pretty way out of this. The addiction to superficial, feel-goodism at all costs is the modern West's Achilles heel, and they know it. We should learn from past mistakes, and fight smarter, but the fight ahead will still be ugly.
We need large margins of error on the side of our children's safety over some losing rights and the inevitable collaterally damage. Much larger than anything we are debating right now. We just haven't had a big enough one yet to imagine the choices we are really up against. Maybe we will get lucky. Maybe not. I say we have seen enough to avoid risking the very real possibility.
13
The people of North Korea are completely safe from "radical Islamic terrorism". Is that our template?
1
The British response to terrorism is much healthier than ours. Perhaps because of the IRA bombings they learned not to politicize a tragic event. Terrorism is successful when people turn on each other. The Brits call for unity and for not turning on all Muslims is much more effective than how we tend to respond. Just like not all Irish were terrorists neither are all Muslims. Keep a stiff upper lip, a sense of humor, and recognize that this too shall pass but it's not going to be easy or fast. A lot of work needs to be done to end terrorism and perhaps what worked in the past might work now.
74
The British are used to being the only terrorists in their Empire.
From America to South Africa to Kenya to Ghana to India to Iraq to Afghanistan to Iran to Jamaica to Nigeria to Australia to New Zealand and Pakistan the Union Jack brought bloodshed.
Not all British were and are terrorists. George Washington, Shaka Zulu Mahatma Gandhi, Jomo Kenyatta and Kwame Nkrumah were all freedom fighters.
From America to South Africa to Kenya to Ghana to India to Iraq to Afghanistan to Iran to Jamaica to Nigeria to Australia to New Zealand and Pakistan the Union Jack brought bloodshed.
Not all British were and are terrorists. George Washington, Shaka Zulu Mahatma Gandhi, Jomo Kenyatta and Kwame Nkrumah were all freedom fighters.
1
The only way to stop this insanity, is for moderate muslims to become paid informants to infiltrate these groups.
They can then get asylum for themselves and their families here in the U.S.
They can then get asylum for themselves and their families here in the U.S.
3
No. This is a not an answer to the problems and no, we do not need to offer 'asylum' to Muslims. Ridiculous idea.
Bizarre tweets indeed! Trump tweeting about security! He discussed a North Korean missile strike in public in full view of diners at Mar-A-Lago, revealed classified information to the Russians in the Oval Office ... with only Russian journalists present and screamed "off with her head" ... Oh wait, that last one was Alice in Wonderland. That's where we must be ... down the rabbit hole or through the looking glass.
3
What is happening in the UK is highly reminiscent of the "strategy of terror" used by right-wing extremists in Italy in the 1970s. Elections are imminent and someone, somewhere wants to create among the English a need for security that many are willing to believe only conservative politicians can provide.
1
That the British face the "challenge" of an upcoming election is entirely Theresa May's doing. In calling it and in setting the date for June 8, she went against her own repeated assertions that there would not be a general election before 2020.
The terrorism is hideous for sure. It is most unfortunate that it proclaims to act in the name of a twisted interpretation of Islam, particularly for the multitude of Muslims who seek to live peaceful lives amidst a culture that has values and condones behavior that many of them may find incomprehensible, even offensive.
However, it is up to them who have chosen to come and live in a secular society, that has inherited its value-system from Christianity and humanism, to find a modus vivendi. We can and must assist them in this endeavor, but we cannot make compromises on content. In public life, on the work-floor, in terms of access to opportunities, men and women are and should be equal, to name but one area of contention.
So any response we may devise to address the threat of terrorism must also safeguard our core values. The challenge will be to do this within a framework that remains recognizably democratic and maintains the assumption of innocence. This will be increasingly difficult as ISIS and its cohorts seek to provoke us into rash and sweeping measures and to lure us into the trap of abandoning what defines us.
The terrorism is hideous for sure. It is most unfortunate that it proclaims to act in the name of a twisted interpretation of Islam, particularly for the multitude of Muslims who seek to live peaceful lives amidst a culture that has values and condones behavior that many of them may find incomprehensible, even offensive.
However, it is up to them who have chosen to come and live in a secular society, that has inherited its value-system from Christianity and humanism, to find a modus vivendi. We can and must assist them in this endeavor, but we cannot make compromises on content. In public life, on the work-floor, in terms of access to opportunities, men and women are and should be equal, to name but one area of contention.
So any response we may devise to address the threat of terrorism must also safeguard our core values. The challenge will be to do this within a framework that remains recognizably democratic and maintains the assumption of innocence. This will be increasingly difficult as ISIS and its cohorts seek to provoke us into rash and sweeping measures and to lure us into the trap of abandoning what defines us.
1
I dont think the British think of themselves as in agony. They endured the Nazi blitz, as most countries that were bombed have done, including the Third Reich and North Vietnam. They endured the IRA bombing campaigns, and they will endure this. Londoners are tough, as are New Yorkers and Bostonians. The more conservative parts of our country are wimps, overreacting and pressing panic buttons exactly the way the bombers hope they will. But liberal communities, unlike conservative ones, understand what the terrorists are trying to do, and are determined that the terrorists will not succeed.
19
It's unfortunate that you've chosen to politicise the issue. Remember the Brighton bomb in 1984, in which the IRA blew up the hotel where Margaret Thatcher and most of her cabinet were staying, killing five, injuring many, and from which Mrs Thatcher herself was carried covered in brick dust and rubble? The Conservative Party Conference opened as scheduled at 9:30am that very morning and Mrs Thatcher gave her conference speech that morning.
How "conservative" do you have to be to be a "wimp"?
How "conservative" do you have to be to be a "wimp"?
3
Unlike Trump's provocative and divisive remarks driven by his Islam phobia the official Britain's reaction to the latest London terror attacks was more measured and mature. So we're the reactions from the public that kept on keeping routine and rhythm of life as normal without an undue panic. The repeated terror strikes in Britain, and other European cities though worrisome and alarming, and necessitate a thorough review of the counterterrorism strategy of the Western governments yet the same shouldn't be at the cost of people's freedom and democratic rights- the bedrock of the Western liberal order, which the terror forces of radical Islam wish to destroy. Even the rising alt nationalist groups across several Western countries are wittingly or unwittingly participating in their game plan of destabilising the Western nations. The British response, both from its political class as well as from the public, to the latest carnage in London appears quite mature and pragmatic as there's neither any sign of politicisation of the terrorist event, nor panic on the part of the public, nothing could be ruled out at these testing times when the general elections are due in coming days.
9
How can this be called a "terrorist attack" (or any other kind) when there has been yet no investigation by any authority, and more importantly, no verification by any third party? If an airliner crashed, there would be a several-month long formal investigation inspecting in great detail every possible causality. Evidently in mass-reported, media disseminated public accident programs like this one, no such investigation is even necessary; even when the asserted perpetrators are dead. To a professional accident, forensic or crime scene investigator, that is an amazing feat of self-evident, instant assessment (that otherwise follows traditional methods of mass cognitive influence or thought reform, and including source amnesia and dissociation between the semantic and the episodic: The most difficult personal cognitive breakdown or trauma, is that you not only bypass instinctive natural inquiry, but that you want, and even need, rather, to believe. Non-belief has been conditioned as a near-pain response, or leads even to conditioned maladaptive neurosis).
3
Many witnesses did report that the attackers shouted, "This is for Allah," as they slashed their way about. And so-called Islamic State has claimed the attackers as some of its own. But you could be right: perhaps the many witnesses were mistaken, and perhaps the attackers had specific grievances against each of the people they attacked, i.e., they were not trying to terrorize an assembly of strangers.
17
Matt Anderson,
ISIS claims responsibility.
The attackers said they were doing this on behalf of Allah.
Who the attackers were.
That they attacked any and everybody.
Surely not an accident.
What more evidence do you want ?
ISIS claims responsibility.
The attackers said they were doing this on behalf of Allah.
Who the attackers were.
That they attacked any and everybody.
Surely not an accident.
What more evidence do you want ?
5
All true but this is a News Paper as they used to be called. Who can remember what was in yesterday's fish wrap as they also used to be called?
Useless emissions like such opinions are contributing more to global warming today than all the coal in the world. Trump is absolutely right: political correctness is the root of the problem. The UK's Muslim population has doubled since 2001 to over 3m today, and is 60 times it's 50,000 in the early 60s. Start from there. Coffee, anyone?
15
The men who did this were not Muslims. They were criminals, xenophobic racists and sociopaths.
No religion has ever advocated this, ever. Certainly, at no point in the Koran is the killing of innocents like this, allowed or encouraged.
These angry young men were rebels looking for a cause, they found the wrong one. Islam if followed correctly, is a peaceful religion
No religion has ever advocated this, ever. Certainly, at no point in the Koran is the killing of innocents like this, allowed or encouraged.
These angry young men were rebels looking for a cause, they found the wrong one. Islam if followed correctly, is a peaceful religion
3
@Keith
I wrote "Start there", not end there. Your coffee's getting cold. Feel free to use house microwave, sponsored by the West Virginia Coal Association. Full disclosure: the one from the US Renewable Energy Association kept cutting out. Now the manufacturer wants me to replace my wind turbine. Go figure.
I wrote "Start there", not end there. Your coffee's getting cold. Feel free to use house microwave, sponsored by the West Virginia Coal Association. Full disclosure: the one from the US Renewable Energy Association kept cutting out. Now the manufacturer wants me to replace my wind turbine. Go figure.
2
May and Corbyn have not politicized this event but of course our self-absorbed President already has. I hear he wants to go to England right now. He can't stand that events in London are getting all the headlines and he's being covered less. Boo hoo.
83
Sure, Barbara, send him over. We can give him a free tour of the Tower of London. The Yeomen of the Guard have the keys and I'm sure they could be persuaded to lock up early and lose them.
;-)
;-)
3
Theresa May was criticized for agreeing to take a pause in active campaigning --- but in actuality using her speech on the terror attack to put her campaign notions out there, having set up a situation where the opposing parties wouldn't be able to offer an alternative or critique. In the respectful moment of not campaigning. So to speak.
The sense of it was that she was being unfair. Perhaps pulling a "Trump." Taking advantage. Being opportunistic.
Especially in getting to "act strong" in policy items--outlining proposed restrictive measures, a kind of Patriot Act type measure, and regulating the internet. Where she wouldn't get a rebuttal or the other parties able to do the same to get their particular ideas out to the public.
From what I read, it was considered sneaky and duplicitous of her to use terror to her advantage---and unlike the others---was campaigning during the pause. VERY Trump-like. Something he would do as in use a situation to his advantage. Some pundits in Britain nonetheless thought it might hurt her chances.
The sense of it was that she was being unfair. Perhaps pulling a "Trump." Taking advantage. Being opportunistic.
Especially in getting to "act strong" in policy items--outlining proposed restrictive measures, a kind of Patriot Act type measure, and regulating the internet. Where she wouldn't get a rebuttal or the other parties able to do the same to get their particular ideas out to the public.
From what I read, it was considered sneaky and duplicitous of her to use terror to her advantage---and unlike the others---was campaigning during the pause. VERY Trump-like. Something he would do as in use a situation to his advantage. Some pundits in Britain nonetheless thought it might hurt her chances.
7
Don't believe all you read. The accusations of using her speech to push political points came from the Labour Party, who lost no time in replying, in even more political terms.
I am not a May supporter. I am, in fact, a member of the Labour Party.
In her speech, Mrs May was summing up many of the proposed actions which have already been debated here - and for so long. She was absolutely right.
The time for talking is past and whoever becomes our next government must take action on anti-social prejudice from all sections of our community and threats from all varieties of extremism.
I hope we, and all other countries who believe in life, liberty and equality, can eventually be successful.
I am not a May supporter. I am, in fact, a member of the Labour Party.
In her speech, Mrs May was summing up many of the proposed actions which have already been debated here - and for so long. She was absolutely right.
The time for talking is past and whoever becomes our next government must take action on anti-social prejudice from all sections of our community and threats from all varieties of extremism.
I hope we, and all other countries who believe in life, liberty and equality, can eventually be successful.
5
What nonsense. Though parliament is suspended due to the forthcoming general election, the role of Prime Minister continues unabated. As Prime Minister, Mrs May had a duty to try to reassure the people of the UK and to reflect their horror of what's been happening. She did that without politicising the issue for the forthcoming election but by expressing her own and her party's approach.
Rest assured that if she had politicised the issue as leader of the Conservative Party rather than act in the role of Prime Minister, then Jeremy Corbyn, Tim Farron and all the other party leaders - not too mention the British press - would be tearing her to shreds. They are ALL silent.
Rest assured that if she had politicised the issue as leader of the Conservative Party rather than act in the role of Prime Minister, then Jeremy Corbyn, Tim Farron and all the other party leaders - not too mention the British press - would be tearing her to shreds. They are ALL silent.
2
@SH
Perhaps you inadvertently confirmed what I said I had been reading on the matter when you stated in your comment to me that "She did that ..."by expressing her own and her party's approach."
Wasn't that the point of the articles critiquing that?
Perhaps you inadvertently confirmed what I said I had been reading on the matter when you stated in your comment to me that "She did that ..."by expressing her own and her party's approach."
Wasn't that the point of the articles critiquing that?
It will take more than this to deter England from her path of democracy. The British will bear this atrocity with fierce determination as they always do. If the US government has not said it gracefully or frequently, know that America stands with you.
15
Thank you. It just beggars belief that a few rag-tag, self-styled and self-justifying "warriors" for ANY cause imagine they can do what the might of the Nazi war machine singularly failed to do, namely to undermine the fundamental solidity of the British people.
2
The entire sane world stands with Britain and London, and our hearts go out to those who lost loved ones and friends.
Something fearsome will happen in retaliation against ISIS. While it likely will include a British component, it’s nevertheless even more likely that it will be ordered from the White House and substantially performed by U.S. military personnel.
But as this editorial states, the challenge in the end is to protect while respecting our own values, and that will be very difficult. Evidence appears to suggest that this was not organized or directed closely by ISIS but by indigenous Brits of Islamic backgrounds. Pummeling ISIS will not change the danger that persists in every Western society of small numbers of people with great capacity to kill and maim. How do we protect ourselves from them without targeting Muslims generally? It appears that PM May has made the decision to enhance security measures, and it’s unlikely that she’ll direct them at Irishmen. Trump’s travel-ban, currently in legal limbo, just received an energy-boost.
The central inspiring force for these actions remains ISIS: it must be exterminated to remove that unifying and evangelizing influence. But ALL Western societies also must find an acceptable middle-ground between excessive scrutiny of its Muslim minorities and too little scrutiny to be effective. We need a dialogue, importantly including our Muslim minorities, to find that effective but respectful middle-ground.
Something fearsome will happen in retaliation against ISIS. While it likely will include a British component, it’s nevertheless even more likely that it will be ordered from the White House and substantially performed by U.S. military personnel.
But as this editorial states, the challenge in the end is to protect while respecting our own values, and that will be very difficult. Evidence appears to suggest that this was not organized or directed closely by ISIS but by indigenous Brits of Islamic backgrounds. Pummeling ISIS will not change the danger that persists in every Western society of small numbers of people with great capacity to kill and maim. How do we protect ourselves from them without targeting Muslims generally? It appears that PM May has made the decision to enhance security measures, and it’s unlikely that she’ll direct them at Irishmen. Trump’s travel-ban, currently in legal limbo, just received an energy-boost.
The central inspiring force for these actions remains ISIS: it must be exterminated to remove that unifying and evangelizing influence. But ALL Western societies also must find an acceptable middle-ground between excessive scrutiny of its Muslim minorities and too little scrutiny to be effective. We need a dialogue, importantly including our Muslim minorities, to find that effective but respectful middle-ground.
11
OK, Richard. We are almost on the same page here. There will be no "wiping out ISIS" because it would be like attempting to capture all the raindrops in the world in a single bucket. But you didn't stand up for Donald's insane, ignorant tweets, and that in itself is a huge plus for you. Sadly terrorism perpetrated and/or inspired by the Islamic State will continue for some time. No one response will end it, but like all such angry insurgencies it will eventually burn itself out. Think IRA in Northern Ireland. Even the Basque separatists have called a truce. I happen to think that the way Europeans (Londoners and Parisians.....I was in Paris November 13, 2015) respond with resilience and just keeping on keeping on is more stifling of the terrorists than any other reaction. Trump inflames. I bet you agree. Anyway, good letter. Refreshing. Welcome (part way) back to clarity.
1
Rebecca:
There's a Texas ton that President Trump does that I don't defend ... or support. My point always was that we did this to ourselves, that nothing else other than Trump that I could see could break the cycle of vicious faction that had us frozen politically, and that we will go through pain before we see a healing. So get set for pain.
The heart, that which focuses the hate and evangelizes it, is ISIS. Destroy that you won't destroy the hatred but it will lose its focus. In order to clean up the scraps we'll need other measures.
There's a Texas ton that President Trump does that I don't defend ... or support. My point always was that we did this to ourselves, that nothing else other than Trump that I could see could break the cycle of vicious faction that had us frozen politically, and that we will go through pain before we see a healing. So get set for pain.
The heart, that which focuses the hate and evangelizes it, is ISIS. Destroy that you won't destroy the hatred but it will lose its focus. In order to clean up the scraps we'll need other measures.
Too bad George W Bush and his English poodle Tony Blair didn't invade Saudi Arabia instead of Iraq in 2003.
They would have been much closer to the root of modern Islamic terrorism in Saudi Arabia's Wahhabist/Salifist medieval kingdom than they were in Iraq's secular government.
In the 1970s, with the help of funding from Saudi petroleum exports, Saudi charities started funding Wahhabi schools (madrassas) and mosques across the globe and fundamentalist Wahhabist Islam underwent explosive growth.
The US State Department has estimated that over the past 40 years, Saudi Arabia has invested more than $10 billion into charitable foundations in an attempt to replace mainstream Sunni Islam with the harsh intolerance of its Wahhabism. EU intelligence experts estimate that 15 to 20% of this has been diverted to al-Qaeda and other violent jihadists.
Wahhabism, a primitive, harsh medieval form of Islam, now has worldwide influence inspiring the ideology of young extremists worldwide, who are thrilled to drive their airplanes and cars and plunge their swords into crowds of 'infidels'.
Thanks for the cancerous, fundamentalist global Islamic terror network and psychopathy, Saudi Arabia.
If Western leadership had any vision, they would put Saudi Arabia out of business with alternative energy development tomorrow.
The House of Saud is the world's House of Terror that keeps on giving.
Put the polluting Saudi Arabian oil terrorists out of business and kill two plagues with one stone.
They would have been much closer to the root of modern Islamic terrorism in Saudi Arabia's Wahhabist/Salifist medieval kingdom than they were in Iraq's secular government.
In the 1970s, with the help of funding from Saudi petroleum exports, Saudi charities started funding Wahhabi schools (madrassas) and mosques across the globe and fundamentalist Wahhabist Islam underwent explosive growth.
The US State Department has estimated that over the past 40 years, Saudi Arabia has invested more than $10 billion into charitable foundations in an attempt to replace mainstream Sunni Islam with the harsh intolerance of its Wahhabism. EU intelligence experts estimate that 15 to 20% of this has been diverted to al-Qaeda and other violent jihadists.
Wahhabism, a primitive, harsh medieval form of Islam, now has worldwide influence inspiring the ideology of young extremists worldwide, who are thrilled to drive their airplanes and cars and plunge their swords into crowds of 'infidels'.
Thanks for the cancerous, fundamentalist global Islamic terror network and psychopathy, Saudi Arabia.
If Western leadership had any vision, they would put Saudi Arabia out of business with alternative energy development tomorrow.
The House of Saud is the world's House of Terror that keeps on giving.
Put the polluting Saudi Arabian oil terrorists out of business and kill two plagues with one stone.
161
Yeah sure - Invade Saudi Arabia, the home of Mecca, Islam's holiest site. Would that have have prevented this Islamic terror? I don't think so. It would just have started earlier. It is naive to think that the Saudi government would not use this to motivate fighters.
1
Hate to say it but chickens are coming home. For decades Britain allowed Islamist preachers to spew venom against infidels, western civilization, democracy and women as free speech. Many from the U.K. fought in foreign jihad such as Afghanistan until they returned home to settle down. These people poison the impressionable minds of next gen youth. Outcome is violent jihad by their own citizens in their own land today. There should be zero tolerance policy against hate speech advocating violence or hatred. Muslim community needs to ostracize such hate mongers for its own and larger good
12
You must have forgotten about the IRA and what it was like to live in the U.K. in the 70's and 80's with the threat of bombings a reality.
This will never end until there is peace in the Middle East. So long as the region is being ripped apart by the various factions, the seeds of terror will continue to be sown. Let us not forget that suicide bombings on a massive scale are almost daily occurrences over there. The entire region has become a killing field of terror. Sunni or Shia, all are capable of horrible brutality. And we have our fingerprints all over it.
The Israeli Palestinian problem is a major driver of terror. By allowing that problem to fester, recruiting terrorists is just that much easier. All are to blame, including the nations that treat the displaced Palestinians like lepers.
Syria is now the biggest driver of terror which has engulfed all of Northern Africa and extends to India. Indonesia is now feeling the effects of terror.
There is just no way we can police or even war our way to security. We can reduce it through our police actions, but we can't stop it. Only by stopping the reasons that motivate the suicide bomber, will this horror end. Islam has been corrupted by the killers as a reason to strap on the explosive belt. But even without their religion, these killers would have no problem coming up with another justification to kill.
The Israeli Palestinian problem is a major driver of terror. By allowing that problem to fester, recruiting terrorists is just that much easier. All are to blame, including the nations that treat the displaced Palestinians like lepers.
Syria is now the biggest driver of terror which has engulfed all of Northern Africa and extends to India. Indonesia is now feeling the effects of terror.
There is just no way we can police or even war our way to security. We can reduce it through our police actions, but we can't stop it. Only by stopping the reasons that motivate the suicide bomber, will this horror end. Islam has been corrupted by the killers as a reason to strap on the explosive belt. But even without their religion, these killers would have no problem coming up with another justification to kill.
33
The blame Israel thing has been hollow for a long time already. ISIS wants us dead. They want a caliphate. Not just Israel dead or subjugated, EVERYBODY other than them. It's not complicated really, you just have to respect them enough to listen to what they say explicitly, rather than putting Western notions of reasonableness in their mouths. The insistence on filtering their motivations through Western sensibilities is almost culturally offensive in a perverse way. They murdered little girls for their insane ideology, at least don't take that away from them. What else could you possibly want them to do to prove that it's plain extremist insanity? The terrorists didn't say they were doing this for equality in Palestine. They said they were doing it for Allah. Insane inarguable, non-negotiable, extremism. Period.
14
@Bruce: you hit the nail on the head. I've worked in the region for 2 decades in a former life and have seen firsthand how unresolved conflicts like Palestine, Kashmir (and then Bosnia) enflamed locals from Egypt to Bangladesh as a grievance industry took hold, frustrated by Muslims' inability to get justice due to lack of power. Obviously, no one even dared cover that angle in the media in those days - so complete was the domination of the Israeli lobby, and the internet hadn't democratized information flows...
I've no doubt that Suicide attacks (certainly against civilians) would easily be declared as unIslamic if only Saudi Arabia and Iran weren't using extremist organizations (Hamas, Hizbollah, and affiliates) to their political end, and thereby allowing this evil to metastasize. When did suicide bombings start in the Middle East? In the 80s with the attack on marine barracks in Beirut in 1983 as the second such instance only (there was a car bomb earlier). But, obviously people today have no desire or inclination to understand the roots of our troubles (including strategic mistakes by US: allowing Palestine injustice to fester, arming Afghan Mujahideen against Soviets and then ignoring them from 1989-96, Iraq war when there was no Al-Qaeda there, Libya bombing...) when money's flowing freely into demonization of an entire religion...
I've no doubt that Suicide attacks (certainly against civilians) would easily be declared as unIslamic if only Saudi Arabia and Iran weren't using extremist organizations (Hamas, Hizbollah, and affiliates) to their political end, and thereby allowing this evil to metastasize. When did suicide bombings start in the Middle East? In the 80s with the attack on marine barracks in Beirut in 1983 as the second such instance only (there was a car bomb earlier). But, obviously people today have no desire or inclination to understand the roots of our troubles (including strategic mistakes by US: allowing Palestine injustice to fester, arming Afghan Mujahideen against Soviets and then ignoring them from 1989-96, Iraq war when there was no Al-Qaeda there, Libya bombing...) when money's flowing freely into demonization of an entire religion...
2