So what is the speed of gravity? Did the waves need 3 billion years to travel 3 billion light years? Is the speed of gravity variable, depending on other (gravitational) influences?
When the corrosive effects of politics wears us down, the consolation of mysteries embedded in scientific endeavors lifts our spirits to lofty heights -- like great art -- and we become WHOLE. Pity the narrow-minded anti-intellectual anti-science mindset. They think they have all the answers, and never ask big questions.
12
First; what exactly is a short year? a non leap year?
Second; a light year is a measure of distance not a measure of time.
The times has as much trouble with science as it has with truth.
Second; a light year is a measure of distance not a measure of time.
The times has as much trouble with science as it has with truth.
1
Dr. Reitze,
What remains to be proven about Einstein? You said "at some point he'll be wrong". About what exactly is left of what he predicted is left to be proven or disproved? I thought his gravity wave prediction and his black hole descriptions all of which have been proven by gravity waves were the last of tests of his work.
What remains to be proven about Einstein? You said "at some point he'll be wrong". About what exactly is left of what he predicted is left to be proven or disproved? I thought his gravity wave prediction and his black hole descriptions all of which have been proven by gravity waves were the last of tests of his work.
2
Grok is a very useful word. I recently read Moonwalking with Einstein and made a connection between his description of deep and masterful knowing and Heinlein's coined term.
3
"During the last frantic moments of the merger, they were shedding more energy in the form of gravitational waves than all the stars in the observable universe."
Energy is mass, at speed. If they shed that much energy, they were shedding that much mass.
Unless this is very careless language, that is at least part of where the black holes "go" when "winking out of existence."
Energy is mass, at speed. If they shed that much energy, they were shedding that much mass.
Unless this is very careless language, that is at least part of where the black holes "go" when "winking out of existence."
2
"Energy is mass, at speed. If they shed that much energy, they were shedding that much mass."
No. You need to multiply the mass by the speed of light squared: E = m c^2. The article is vague about the details, but about one solar mass was "lost" during the merger.
'Unless this is very careless language, that is at least part of where the black holes "go" when "winking out of existence."'
No, again. The "winking out of existence" description concerns stars that collapse into a black hole without a supernova occurring first. Read the article again.
No. You need to multiply the mass by the speed of light squared: E = m c^2. The article is vague about the details, but about one solar mass was "lost" during the merger.
'Unless this is very careless language, that is at least part of where the black holes "go" when "winking out of existence."'
No, again. The "winking out of existence" description concerns stars that collapse into a black hole without a supernova occurring first. Read the article again.
8
Oh how the universe must laugh at us, beings whose utter insignificance dwarfs our meaningless arrogance. While we wake up and argue about tweets, the unimaginable wonders of endless creation carry on, blissfully and absolutely unaffected by our existence.
19
This is a good time to be a young astrophysicist - there seem to be a huge amount we don't understand about the universe and are just developing the tools to start peeling back the veil of ignorance.
7
"The burning question now is: Where did such massive black holes come from?"
But we already know that to become a black hole a star has to start out many times the mass of the sun and there are many stars more than 100 times the mass of the sun. So these black hole mergers are not between objects so big we need to open a whole new question about where they came from. In fact, it seems, in terms of "filling in the black hole size spectrum," these are about what we'd expect. Hurray!
But we already know that to become a black hole a star has to start out many times the mass of the sun and there are many stars more than 100 times the mass of the sun. So these black hole mergers are not between objects so big we need to open a whole new question about where they came from. In fact, it seems, in terms of "filling in the black hole size spectrum," these are about what we'd expect. Hurray!
Re: Dr. Holz agreed. He said, “We think this might be a channel for ‘heavy’ black hole formation, and it’s amazing to see it actually happening in real time.”
3 billion years ago isn't exactly "real time." Just sayin'.
3 billion years ago isn't exactly "real time." Just sayin'.
2
What happens when each black hole's event horizons cross each other? Does the whole thing just vanish? Isn't that a kind of 0 x 0 event in terms of being an actual observable natural phenomenon?
They just merge. No big deal.
Two colliding black holes would merge into a single black hole with a mass equal to the sum of their masses before the collision. The new black hole would have a spin that would be the "sum" of the two colliding holes' spins. An outside observer would see their two event horizons blob together into one bigger event horizon. In real life, holes like these would probably have whirling disks of in-falling ripped-up planets and asteroids that would collide at high speed resulting in a hell of a fireworks show. In the last seconds before the collision, you, inside your spacecraft, would experience the gravitational waves as violent jerks of gravity attracting you and your shipmates and baggage both toward and away from the black holes. If your ship has an internal artificial gravity field and inertia nullifier, better have it running at full strength before the fun starts. Dead spacemen tell no tales.
1
Meanwhile, today at the White House, President Trump announced in the Rose Garden that the United States is withdrawing from Universe. The President commented that "this Black Hole thing is just a job killer" and we're going to "negotiate a better deal for America and all working Americans."
23
Go LIGO and Caltech!
10
There's a fundamental problem with the rationale of LIGO and all interferometer-based attempts to measure gravitational waves that I haven't seen addressed yet: if this detection is based on the distortion of space itself then there would not be any measurable difference in one arm versus the other arm of the detector. This is the case bc a distortion in space itself distorts everything occupying that space, including of course the interferometer itself, that is by definition undetectable. So whatever is happening and being detected by LIGO is not bc of the purported gravitational waves.
1
You assume that the distortion is isotropic---equal in all spatial directions at any instant---which is not the case. Electromagnetic waves, that you surly don't deny, are distortions of the electromagnetic field that permeates all space. The two types of wave are quite analogous.
2
See https://phys.org/news/2016-02-ligo.html
In essence the distance that the light within the ligo tubes has to travel is longer in one direction and shorter in the other when a gravitiational wave passes through it, so it takes a longer time to go one direction than the other. But this distance is so small that trying to measure that travel time difference is impossible. But, interference between the waves of light does allow these ever so small changes to be detected. So, you are right that the detector changes size along with the rest of the universe, but the light waves are not being changed; they do have to travel the new distances.
In essence the distance that the light within the ligo tubes has to travel is longer in one direction and shorter in the other when a gravitiational wave passes through it, so it takes a longer time to go one direction than the other. But this distance is so small that trying to measure that travel time difference is impossible. But, interference between the waves of light does allow these ever so small changes to be detected. So, you are right that the detector changes size along with the rest of the universe, but the light waves are not being changed; they do have to travel the new distances.
7
Could you also say that time slows down (and speeds up) along one axis and not the other?
Upon reading "Astronomers…felt space-time vibrations known as gravitational waves from…a pit of infinitely deep darkness," I felt a Trump joke coming on.
Turning my attention "up" to the events of so long ago and so far away I felt uplifted by those gravitational waves! Cynicism washed away, I turned to the comments with a perspective above jokes.
Many shared my wonder, love and hope, but a few brought me back down to earth, splashed me in the face and sogged my perspective.
And there you have it. Just reading of beauty and power beyond our grasp can leave us awestruck, a healthy appreciation for a rare and delicate balance where—if we play our cards right and watch our step—all we have and more is possible. And just reading spiteful stubborn backwardness can thrust ugliness and despair upon us.
"Are we alone in the universe?" We're not even a "we." Two incompatible forces circling on this rock, one a black hole into which all light disappears never to emerge again and the other an exploding star pouring its energy into it, just far enough away not to be completely sucked in—yet.
And each "side" views the other as the darkness.
One's only truth is narrative; truth too big to know, keep your head down, "go with your gut," resenting all who'd search for or claim to possess a fact. The other's is equally infinite but they seek to grow into it.
Each feels responsibility to maintain a balance. But with two different dances on unaligned floors, how do we avoid collision?
Turning my attention "up" to the events of so long ago and so far away I felt uplifted by those gravitational waves! Cynicism washed away, I turned to the comments with a perspective above jokes.
Many shared my wonder, love and hope, but a few brought me back down to earth, splashed me in the face and sogged my perspective.
And there you have it. Just reading of beauty and power beyond our grasp can leave us awestruck, a healthy appreciation for a rare and delicate balance where—if we play our cards right and watch our step—all we have and more is possible. And just reading spiteful stubborn backwardness can thrust ugliness and despair upon us.
"Are we alone in the universe?" We're not even a "we." Two incompatible forces circling on this rock, one a black hole into which all light disappears never to emerge again and the other an exploding star pouring its energy into it, just far enough away not to be completely sucked in—yet.
And each "side" views the other as the darkness.
One's only truth is narrative; truth too big to know, keep your head down, "go with your gut," resenting all who'd search for or claim to possess a fact. The other's is equally infinite but they seek to grow into it.
Each feels responsibility to maintain a balance. But with two different dances on unaligned floors, how do we avoid collision?
6
"Groking" is a misspelling, it's "grokking." Any Heinlein fan knows that.
5
Complaining about spelling of "grokking" truly shows lack of "grokking". Ironic.
2
Yes, but Heinlein did still use a copy editor for spelling, getting right all that grokking.
2
BIG BANG THEORY...Ok so now we know. These black holes swallow each other and eventually create one giant Big Black Hole. When that happens, the existing pent up energy inside of the BIg Black Hole explodes and creates a Big Bang. Eureka! a new Universe is born!
2
Don't let Trump see this.
2
Who knew? - the speed of darkness is the same as the speed of light. I guess Einstein knew.
That we know a black hole is spinning is amazing! Or is it space spinning around a point is space?
Let's hear it for surround-sound detection of black-hole collisions and formations with the Virgo detector added to the stereo LIGO detectors.
Cool stuff!
That we know a black hole is spinning is amazing! Or is it space spinning around a point is space?
Let's hear it for surround-sound detection of black-hole collisions and formations with the Virgo detector added to the stereo LIGO detectors.
Cool stuff!
1
The Chirp Heard 'Round the Universe
As a former physicist who used laser interferometers, I've a decent appreciation of the science behind this experimental work. As far as the black hole part, I've no idea.
But yet my belief in this work's value persists.
So re climate change, this is illustrative. It shows, first, that mankind can undertake long-term projects (this one was 40 years) and Win! . . . er, succeed. Second, at least to me, it shows that if we rely on peer-reviewed analysis, we are likely on solid ground.
Is climate science a field with peer-reviewed work? Yes. Is DJT's analysis of climate change based on moohlah? Yes. Is it based on facts? No. He's factless and peer-review-less. Sweet Jesus save us, because the Trump administration is essentially beyond the realm of reason.
As a former physicist who used laser interferometers, I've a decent appreciation of the science behind this experimental work. As far as the black hole part, I've no idea.
But yet my belief in this work's value persists.
So re climate change, this is illustrative. It shows, first, that mankind can undertake long-term projects (this one was 40 years) and Win! . . . er, succeed. Second, at least to me, it shows that if we rely on peer-reviewed analysis, we are likely on solid ground.
Is climate science a field with peer-reviewed work? Yes. Is DJT's analysis of climate change based on moohlah? Yes. Is it based on facts? No. He's factless and peer-review-less. Sweet Jesus save us, because the Trump administration is essentially beyond the realm of reason.
7
Black hole astronomy - an interesting subject. The second picture is fascinating,reminds one of tsunami waves in an ocean. What if a black hole swallows our planet Earth one day - frightening prospect. How many dead stars in our universe,is it possible to count? Can we estimate the life of a star? The LIGO Observatory should try to find out answers. Three billion light years distance - how many years it will take to cover it?
2
Dr. Holz states black holes die when they collide, the article states they merge and form a super black hole approximately equal to the sum of the two, what is Dr. Holz talking about?
Black holes never die, they just fade away.
2
I'm baffled by the mention of the scientist who received an email about this and started to smile "but then remembered she was not alone and the other person was not a member of LIGO . . ." Is this top secret information that had to be closely held? Is LIGO some sort of secret society? Is news of a 3-billion-year-old "chirp" from space to be withheld, at least temporarily, from those outside the magic circle?
3
just her post-catsclysmic glow shining through the inter-galactic expanse
3
I'm not part of it; I appreciate the extremely professional way they have handled this. No junk early leaks; do the detailed analysis and be sure of what you are saying, and then, and ONLY then, release it. There's no secrets here, just grown-up responsibility. (We could use more of that, couldn't we?)
4
Probably had not yet been published - also, perhaps had not yet been verified. Professional courtesy. And no, I am not referring to the lawyer joke on that topic...
3
Is the science that is accepted by the GOP and the US government or is this "fake" science that we should ignore, you know like gravity.
2
Do scientists make up this crazy stuff to get more grants, or what?
My thanks to the NY Times for dedicating resources to keep science in the news. I love the videos used to help explanations. Science is a job creator and this country needs someone in the White House who clearly understands and promotes it. The dummy down attitude of the current president is a disaster for the country and those people he thinks he is trying to help. Don the Con will have very little to show for all of his bluster since the tide of science will eventually overwhelm his poor judgment.
3
"Infinitely deep darkness", I am reminded of our nations state with this 'president'.
1
I was observing with my telescopes last weekend during the New Moon. Drove hours away from the light-polluted skies of my city to see our Milky Way.
Trips like that help bring true reflection. What some ignorant and ego-centric bundle of fat and proteins is doing for the rest of us - on this rock hurtling through space - is relatively inconsequential. I saw the fiery and greenhouse-crazy) Venus, beautiful Orion, and dim galaxies much further away and much larger than our own.
I urge everyone to get outdoors for astronomy. It's such good excercise for the mind and soul. Teach your friends and children about it. And don't vote for the political party which aims to defund science research and education.
Trips like that help bring true reflection. What some ignorant and ego-centric bundle of fat and proteins is doing for the rest of us - on this rock hurtling through space - is relatively inconsequential. I saw the fiery and greenhouse-crazy) Venus, beautiful Orion, and dim galaxies much further away and much larger than our own.
I urge everyone to get outdoors for astronomy. It's such good excercise for the mind and soul. Teach your friends and children about it. And don't vote for the political party which aims to defund science research and education.
10
I'm not sure why these are being called "mammoth black holes". In reality these are about average size black holes (five to 50 times the mass of our sun). The truly mammoth black holes are the "supermassive black holes" at the center of large galaxies - these can be up to BILLIONS of times more massive than our sun.
6
I admit that I find it hard to get my head around the concept of black holes and stars "dropping out of existence" but that's my limitation - the beauty of these scientific discoveries displays that "the mind of man is holy" and the universe is a marvelous thing.
3
Stars don't drop out of existence. They become unrecognizable, having been incorporated into a black hole. We could say that, as stars, they are undetectable, their only remnant being an increase in the black hole's gravity.
2
Help stop colliding black holes NOW! Make the Universe great again!
3
I have been told that no information whatsoever can escape from a black hole. However, as this article points out, a black hole is believed to spin. If (perhaps) this spin could be detected with LIGO, then that spin direction and rate would represent information, which would (in essence) be transmitted from the black hole itself.
This argument is, of course, a paradox. Has anyone thought of this before?
This argument is, of course, a paradox. Has anyone thought of this before?
1
That IS a nice thought!
Dear W,
Actually there are three bits of information that can be observed from a black hole. First is its mass/energy, naturally, as it's detectable by gravity. Second is its spin, which you could deduce from the lateral movement of anything dropping into it. Third is its electrical/magnetic charge. There's no paradox involved though, as the notion that zero information can escape is incorrect. It stems from the accurate idea that nothing which enters the event horizon can ever return, but the mass of something that had dropped in could still be measured, in its resulting increase in the gravitational effect.
Actually there are three bits of information that can be observed from a black hole. First is its mass/energy, naturally, as it's detectable by gravity. Second is its spin, which you could deduce from the lateral movement of anything dropping into it. Third is its electrical/magnetic charge. There's no paradox involved though, as the notion that zero information can escape is incorrect. It stems from the accurate idea that nothing which enters the event horizon can ever return, but the mass of something that had dropped in could still be measured, in its resulting increase in the gravitational effect.
Mr. Stackhouse:
Thanks for your well thought out answer.
If I put on my electrical engineering hat, this tells me that I could transmit binary information out of a black hole. If, for example, I was somehow able to stand on a black hole (inside the event horizon) I could use a rocket motor to change its spin rate. If I encoded a binary number in two different spin rates, then I could in essence transmit information out of it. It would be slow, but possible to do.
Thanks for your well thought out answer.
If I put on my electrical engineering hat, this tells me that I could transmit binary information out of a black hole. If, for example, I was somehow able to stand on a black hole (inside the event horizon) I could use a rocket motor to change its spin rate. If I encoded a binary number in two different spin rates, then I could in essence transmit information out of it. It would be slow, but possible to do.
I wonder what the creationists who believe in a 6,000 year old universe tell their children about these scientific discoveries?
5
In Hindu cosmology, as I understand it, the material world will collapse at the end of a grand cycle and a new big bang start the next grand cycle. So, some billions of years from now, astronomers will detect the birth of their universe from the ashes of ours. In other words, the final two gigantic black holes will collapse and swallow everything. Sounds plausible--and too magnificent to grasp
2
Overbye's science writing is fabulous and the series on LIGO data has been some of the best journalism in the Times for the entire year. This is why I subscribe.
Here's a link to a video from the European Southern Observatory showing stars at the center of the Milky Way orbiting a small, very massive object that emits no light, i.e., the best "visualization" of a black hole that one could hope to get. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duoHtJpo4GY
Here's a link to a video from the European Southern Observatory showing stars at the center of the Milky Way orbiting a small, very massive object that emits no light, i.e., the best "visualization" of a black hole that one could hope to get. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duoHtJpo4GY
1
Dennis Overbye,
Beautifully written article. It's a challenge to explain something this complex in simple language. Nicely done.
NYT: your science coverage is greatly appreciated.
Beautifully written article. It's a challenge to explain something this complex in simple language. Nicely done.
NYT: your science coverage is greatly appreciated.
6
A few facts:
The claimed detection involved a signal a fraction of a second long consisting of a displacement of the measuring equipment by an amount so small (1 ten thousandths of the diameter of a proton) that its very detection by a mechanical device strains credulity.
This alleged signal was then compared to a collection of 250,000 templates calculated from a theory based on the assumption (for which there is no unambiguous empirical evidence) that black holes exist. Not surprisingly a match was found and from that match the story of an 'invisible' collision of giant black holes in the distant cosmological past is elaborated and celebrated as a scientific triumph.
But there is nothing scientific about this claim. Science is the study of that which can be observed and measured. Running a dubious claim to a minute signal 'detection' back up an elaborate inferential chain of mathematical logic is not science, it is mathematicism.
http://thisislanduniverse.com/commentary/the-cult-of-mathematics/
The claimed detection involved a signal a fraction of a second long consisting of a displacement of the measuring equipment by an amount so small (1 ten thousandths of the diameter of a proton) that its very detection by a mechanical device strains credulity.
This alleged signal was then compared to a collection of 250,000 templates calculated from a theory based on the assumption (for which there is no unambiguous empirical evidence) that black holes exist. Not surprisingly a match was found and from that match the story of an 'invisible' collision of giant black holes in the distant cosmological past is elaborated and celebrated as a scientific triumph.
But there is nothing scientific about this claim. Science is the study of that which can be observed and measured. Running a dubious claim to a minute signal 'detection' back up an elaborate inferential chain of mathematical logic is not science, it is mathematicism.
http://thisislanduniverse.com/commentary/the-cult-of-mathematics/
GRAVITATIONAL WAVES Are ubiquitous. But they are so weak that they cannot be measured using current technology. When two black holes collide, they cause an explosion, a massive tranformation of matter into energy, due to the entanglement of energy-matter moving at the speed of light in the centers of the black holes. The explosion is so massive due to the forces of the two black holes that momentarily disrupt the cycling of mass-energy. What occurs when matter is transformed into energy that time suddenly stops (i.e., becomes infinite). It has been maximally slowed down in the entanglement of matter and energy in the black hole that is rotating at near the speed of light. Introducing the powerful forces of the collision of the black holes makes the stopping of time in the energy generated a hugely powerful force.
1
This can't be right. It's "science." Like climate change.
6
In a zoo, a man stands in front of the giraffes pen. He stares at a giraffe for a long time, walking around the fence, just to make sure. Then he shakes his head in disbelief and walks away muttering: "There are no such things!"
3
While I can only behold the wonder and beauty of the universe, and lack the capacity to comprehend physics and astronomy, I am comforted and appreciative of those of you possessing these gifts.
Please do impart your knowledge to our youth who share your scientific affinities. I'm counting on your expertise to preserve our planet for future generations.
Please do impart your knowledge to our youth who share your scientific affinities. I'm counting on your expertise to preserve our planet for future generations.
20
Re: "I am comforted and appreciative of those of you possessing these gifts."
This is one of the lessons I learned in college when trying to learn physics. I failed, but I was surrounded by people who succeeded. Good on them.
This is one of the lessons I learned in college when trying to learn physics. I failed, but I was surrounded by people who succeeded. Good on them.
1
First, this is just an assumption by a few scientists and not conclusive fact...from scientists who, by their own admission have no idea what makes up most of the universe (dark matter and dark energy- aka "we are in the dark about it"). Secondly, if one were to believe this it should be noted that it took blade 3 billion years ago. Thirdly, the poor fools by their own admission (or is it omission?) can't wait to find something to prove Einstein wrong...as if that, or anything, will elevate them anywhere close to his level of achievement. Poor, little people in the dark. Einstein hated the idea of black holes. Which is a thought one might share should you encounter one. By the way, everything you think you know is most probably wrong...even the time: t's later than you think.
how delightful to see Robert Henlein's term "groking" continuing to be used, even if only in scientific circles. Dr. Stanek wrote: "this is a very important discovery, and one that the community is not yet fully ‘groking’ in how it will impact a number of things."
the word is defined by Apple's dictionary: grok |gräk| verb (groks, grokking, grokked) US informal understand (something) intuitively or by empathy, empathize or communicate sympathetically; establish a rapport.
ORIGIN mid 20th cent.: a word coined by Robert Heinlein (1907–88), American science fiction writer, in Stranger in a Strange Land.
Heinlein's 60s era future history novels included a number of techncial innovations now coming to pass, including driverless cars. He also included future political developments, such as rabid nationalism led by an unstable science-rejecting leader in a society breaking down. Wish i did not grok that reality.
the word is defined by Apple's dictionary: grok |gräk| verb (groks, grokking, grokked) US informal understand (something) intuitively or by empathy, empathize or communicate sympathetically; establish a rapport.
ORIGIN mid 20th cent.: a word coined by Robert Heinlein (1907–88), American science fiction writer, in Stranger in a Strange Land.
Heinlein's 60s era future history novels included a number of techncial innovations now coming to pass, including driverless cars. He also included future political developments, such as rabid nationalism led by an unstable science-rejecting leader in a society breaking down. Wish i did not grok that reality.
20
There is so much there, and so accurate, that I'm convinced we ought to be studying it more seriously. He did for the social understanding what Arthur C. Clark did for the hard science of science fiction. We really need that social understanding now.
Interesting, though I admit, try as I might, that some of these advanced astrophysics concepts continue to elude me. I can read and even repeat facts, but often feel as if I cannot quite really get my head around it.
11
I felt it, too--but I thought it was merely Trump pulling the plug on our environment.
33
The easy answer to Dwayne Moholitny's question is that the 1,998,550,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 grams of merging black hole mass got turned into E=mc^2 joules of gravitational wave energy = 179,620,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 joules. Note: all values are approximate. Thanks for asking.
6
djt calls all this fake science, fake astronomy. Coal profits he understands, Viagra he appreciates. As for science, well it’s just an excuse for stupid astrophysicists to milk the honest, hard working West Virginia coal miners.
34
3 billion light years. That's a long time. How nice it is to know that something, at least, will outlast this cancerous presidency...
18
3,000,000,000 light years is a distance - very big one . But I agree that 3 billion years it's quite a long time!
3
Actually, it's a great distance. The time it took light to cross it is long. 3 billion years long.
LOOK like a set of eyes!
1
We have a black hole in the White House, he sucks up any light and energy that approaches the event horizon. The gravitational waves he emits impact us all far more than jiggling high tech mirrors a fraction of an atomic diameter (horrible standard by the way, which atom are we talking about since different elements have different diameters!). Sad!
While one can't figure out current applications for these esoteric discoveries, that's how science works. Our black hole is doing everything to slash federal support for basic research, from the NIH to NASA, the CDC to the NSF. Of course he was voted in by millions of much smaller black holes, let's hope they don't merge to become more powerful vacuums of light and positive energy.
While one can't figure out current applications for these esoteric discoveries, that's how science works. Our black hole is doing everything to slash federal support for basic research, from the NIH to NASA, the CDC to the NSF. Of course he was voted in by millions of much smaller black holes, let's hope they don't merge to become more powerful vacuums of light and positive energy.
48
"In the latest LIGO event, a black hole 19 times the mass of the sun and another black hole 31 times the sun’s mass, married to make a single hole of 49 solar masses." What happened to the other 2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 kilos?
2
Energy released. It does not contain mass.
6
Converted to energy!
Question: Can we beam all Republican'ts and Trumpet and McConnell, Pence, Gorsuch, et al and their supporters and voters there starting today now immediately?!
Otherwise, amazing article. Learned something new today but then again, isn't that the point of life to begin with?! Makes life that much more interesting and fun, don't you think!
Otherwise, amazing article. Learned something new today but then again, isn't that the point of life to begin with?! Makes life that much more interesting and fun, don't you think!
14
Happy birthday, Dennis!
4
"The burning question now is: Where did such massive black holes come from?"
I beg to differ. The "burning question" will be how will LIGO survive Trump and 21st Century Republicans who seemingly know the cost of everything and the value of nothing?
I beg to differ. The "burning question" will be how will LIGO survive Trump and 21st Century Republicans who seemingly know the cost of everything and the value of nothing?
29
Imagine trying to swing a bowling ball on a chain, in a circle at 180 revolutions per second. Now, imagine it's not a bowling ball, but an object 49 times more massive than the Sun.
God plays with some big toys.
God plays with some big toys.
19
And like all good players, appreciates the spectators' applause
I tried swinging a bowling ball on a chain at 10,800 rpm's like you said, but at that speed I couldn't hold onto it, and it shot off at a tangent and destroyed my neighbor's hydrangea bushes.
The real universe make the most fantastical science fiction seem boring.
15
Scientific articles in newspapers and in science magazines saw me preferring science to science fiction within barely half a year. Considering all of the truly fascinating discoveries in science that have been made in the past three decades, I can only feel sorry for the people who are convinced that all of this is Fake News...
And yeah, just like mall rats, I put Trekkies and other types in that category.
From particle physics two big telescopes; it's all good!
The Laser Interferometer Gravitational-Wave Observatory (LIGO) can detect gravitational waves because "space-time can shake like a bowlful of jelly."
OK, got that.
So, what constitutes the bowl?
What, if anything, is it that contains our space-time continuum?
Any scientific theories?
Or is it "Turtles all the way down?"
(Here we go, Infinite Regression city.)
OK, got that.
So, what constitutes the bowl?
What, if anything, is it that contains our space-time continuum?
Any scientific theories?
Or is it "Turtles all the way down?"
(Here we go, Infinite Regression city.)
4
pretty much turtles all the way down - one of an infinite number of universes within a larger universe.
2
"They and a similar European group named Virgo are collectively the 1,300 authors of a report...l
1,300?!
Really?!
LOL!
Listing their names probably took more pages than the actual report!
Understood that scientific papers often have multiple authors, even many. But 1,300 is ridiculous!
What are they doing, listing technicians tweaking equipment and grad assistants checking data analyses as authors?!
They play important roles, but should be listed in an addendum, NOT on the frontispiece as the authors-- that is, the *writers* of the report!
Let's hope that they're not listing anyone who ever offered a suggestion over dinner or at Friday brown bag -- or any of their cousins!
1,300?!
Really?!
LOL!
Listing their names probably took more pages than the actual report!
Understood that scientific papers often have multiple authors, even many. But 1,300 is ridiculous!
What are they doing, listing technicians tweaking equipment and grad assistants checking data analyses as authors?!
They play important roles, but should be listed in an addendum, NOT on the frontispiece as the authors-- that is, the *writers* of the report!
Let's hope that they're not listing anyone who ever offered a suggestion over dinner or at Friday brown bag -- or any of their cousins!
1
They are not listing everyone who ever made a suggestion. They are listing people who made vital contributions to the result. LIGO is an incredibly complex machine. It has many, many systems, including optical systems, mechanical systems, vacuum systems, computing systems, data analysis systems, etc. No one person (or few people) can be expert in all of them. In fact, most experiment contributors are expert in only one system, and the machine will not work without all of those systems working optimally. Graduate "research assistants" as you call them, do a lot of the important work in all aspects of the experiment, including writing parts of the papers.
So even though 1300 might seem ludicrous to you, it actually is only fair. People's careers depend on the publications they have, and if they have spent all of their time doing vitally important work on an experiment like LIGO, they need to be credited for it. It is standard for all important contributors to a scientific work to be listed as authors; the ones who do the primary writing of a particular paper are generally listed first, with others coming alphabetically after. I think the practice at LIGO is simply to name them all alphabetically.
So even though 1300 might seem ludicrous to you, it actually is only fair. People's careers depend on the publications they have, and if they have spent all of their time doing vitally important work on an experiment like LIGO, they need to be credited for it. It is standard for all important contributors to a scientific work to be listed as authors; the ones who do the primary writing of a particular paper are generally listed first, with others coming alphabetically after. I think the practice at LIGO is simply to name them all alphabetically.
14
"In effect, Einstein’s theory suggested, matter, say a dead star, could disappear from the universe, leaving behind nothing but its gravitational ghost."
It's been my understanding that matter cannot be created or destroyed (conservation of mass) so wouldn't that mean that this article is, at least in part, another one of those faulty science articles that scientists hate so much? You know, the ones that try to report on science they don't understand and inadvertently distort as a result?
Aren't black holes more like hyper-condensed matter? Matter that exhibits such a strong gravitational pull that other matter, as well as energies, can't escape it?
It's been my understanding that matter cannot be created or destroyed (conservation of mass) so wouldn't that mean that this article is, at least in part, another one of those faulty science articles that scientists hate so much? You know, the ones that try to report on science they don't understand and inadvertently distort as a result?
Aren't black holes more like hyper-condensed matter? Matter that exhibits such a strong gravitational pull that other matter, as well as energies, can't escape it?
how can it be infinite if it only weighs 49 suns ( a clearly infinite #)?
1
It's not infinite, and it is not "infinitely deep darkness".
True, photons cannot escape a black hole (by definition), but the object itself is finite, and its gravitation is finite. Also, black holes evaporate (Hawking). One wonders about their lifetimes.
True, photons cannot escape a black hole (by definition), but the object itself is finite, and its gravitation is finite. Also, black holes evaporate (Hawking). One wonders about their lifetimes.
1
Can I light a candle please...
3
To be hypertechnical, the black holes have not merged into one, but are nearly one. That is, as objects approach a black hole they appear to slow down at the event horizon and freeze there for an infinite time. Thus, these two black holes are very, very close, but don't actually merge to outside observers. The release of energy in the form of gravitational waves occurs with the creation of an "apparent horizon", but not from a new single black hole.
9
Thank you. That was an eloquent explanation
2
They "appear" to slow down at the event horizon, etc. What actually happens to the mass-energy inside an event horizon is not really fully known, and although we can never "see" them merge by detectable light, that doesn't mean they haven't merged. Concepts begin to shift into infinities and infinitesimals, and we still don't know enough math or about the intimate mechanics of everything in space-time to resolve that. I suspect we might find that dark matter and energy play somewhere in what goes on - black holes may be one of the phenomena where ordinary matter and energy most interplay with dark matter and energy.
1
In the Age of Trump it is heartening to read articles like this that describe facts writ large, which speaks to the need for more science research funding.
When the forces of ignorance are abroad in the world, facts and the institutions that give birth to them are all we have to rely upon.
When the forces of ignorance are abroad in the world, facts and the institutions that give birth to them are all we have to rely upon.
17
There were probably cavemen who didn't believe that fire could be controlled, or whose power in their tribes depended on fire remaining uncontrolled or controlled only through special, secret knowledge, and fought like heck to make everyone believe the general uncontrollability of fire and even killed anyone who challenged the profits they made from keeping fire "wild". That's because more people controlling fire eventually steals power from those ruling by making its use scarce.
Kind of like some aspects of conservatives vs liberals today, don't you think?
Kind of like some aspects of conservatives vs liberals today, don't you think?
The mating dance of two supermassive black holes, their carnal groan detected by their quaking of the fabric of the cosmos.
The fascinating stories of the decades-long development of LIGO is explicated by Janna Levin in her exquisitely readable 2016 book, 'Black Hole Blues and Other Songs from Outer Space'.
The fascinating stories of the decades-long development of LIGO is explicated by Janna Levin in her exquisitely readable 2016 book, 'Black Hole Blues and Other Songs from Outer Space'.
6
This is FAR more fascinating than raccoons and baby roots shooting bad guys from spaceships. I hope enough young people take notice.
10
Naw, they would rather be mall rats, and have some phantasmorphic Cineplex movie on their MP3 player.
How is the three billion light years estimated. Similarly how are the masses estimated?
I'd guess some pretty neat Gen Rel Model.
I'd guess some pretty neat Gen Rel Model.
2
For any given pair of black holes, there's a minimum orbital period they will attain before merging. We can clock their orbital motion, so we know their minimum orbital period, and therefore how massive they are (more massive black holes orbit less often). Knowing how massive the holes are, we can calculate the strength of the waves they emit (that's the neat GR part). Knowing the strength at the source and the strength we observe, we can figure the distance.
There are some nonlinear corrections which arise because the universe is expanding, but they're nothing we can't handle.
Of all the problems in astrophysics, the merger of two black holes may be the cleanest we've ever encountered. It's literally "just" non-Euclidean geometry -- no messy atomic or nuclear physics whatsoever. I study galaxy mergers, and by comparison they're infernally messy; interstellar gas forming stars, supernovae going off like strings of firecrackers, black holes gorging on everything in their vicinity...
There are some nonlinear corrections which arise because the universe is expanding, but they're nothing we can't handle.
Of all the problems in astrophysics, the merger of two black holes may be the cleanest we've ever encountered. It's literally "just" non-Euclidean geometry -- no messy atomic or nuclear physics whatsoever. I study galaxy mergers, and by comparison they're infernally messy; interstellar gas forming stars, supernovae going off like strings of firecrackers, black holes gorging on everything in their vicinity...
14
Good article. If anything, it should underscore how absurdly insignificant humanity is with its jokes, its wars, its petty strutting and preening and laughable egoism when the sum total of its existence is less than a micro-millisecond of "time" relative to the known and unknown universe. As incomprehensible as vastness measured by distances like billions of years for light-light!- to cross and masses that are measured by multiples of our sun, the center of the solar system, are, one should feel only humility when confronted with this. Our lives, our loves, our economy and wealth generation, the sum total of our art and literature in hundreds of languages, our silly political arguments and the insane hubris of our so-called leaders and solons pale to nothingness.
13
I disagree, Miguel. Humanity and its concerns are not shown to be insignificant for the simple reason that knowledge itself is produced only through human organization and activity. At the very root of our discoveries about the universe are our very human processes of knowing. Perhaps the most interesting lesson from contemporary astronomy is that leading physicists and astronomers find the universe massively mysterious. A thoughtful religious person would say the same, the theologian Rudolf Otto referred to it as "mysterium tremendum et fascinans," for example, the mystery that both fascinates and makes us tremble.
Interestingly, Hubble data have been suggesting that there are galaxies moving away from us faster than the speed of light. Huh? I thought nothing could move faster than the speed of light. In short, our instruments may be, indeed probably are, challenging what we call the laws of physics. But the laws of physics are a human creation--the universe isn't somehow required to obey them.
The universe is fascinating only because it transcends human knowledge. Without that human knowledge there is no fascination. It's that "mysterium tremendum" that shows us we are human and just how mysterious it is to be a human. In this sense the universe is insignificant without humanity and human knowing.
Interestingly, Hubble data have been suggesting that there are galaxies moving away from us faster than the speed of light. Huh? I thought nothing could move faster than the speed of light. In short, our instruments may be, indeed probably are, challenging what we call the laws of physics. But the laws of physics are a human creation--the universe isn't somehow required to obey them.
The universe is fascinating only because it transcends human knowledge. Without that human knowledge there is no fascination. It's that "mysterium tremendum" that shows us we are human and just how mysterious it is to be a human. In this sense the universe is insignificant without humanity and human knowing.
3
miguel: That's one way of looking at it.
Another way: the universe tends towards entropy. DIsorder. The vaaaaaast majority of the universe is pretty disordered. Yet order - life - seems to develop quite readily, and even if it turns out that life, especially intelligent life, is much more prevalent than we might believe, it will still be a tiny part of Everything. That makes life pretty precious, and very NOT insignificant.
Another way: the universe tends towards entropy. DIsorder. The vaaaaaast majority of the universe is pretty disordered. Yet order - life - seems to develop quite readily, and even if it turns out that life, especially intelligent life, is much more prevalent than we might believe, it will still be a tiny part of Everything. That makes life pretty precious, and very NOT insignificant.
2
Your comment makes me feel fantastically insignificant. That would be quite a compliment to you from most of my friends! ; ))
i continue to wonder how long into the future it'll be before einstein's mind stops amazing humanity....
10
Overbye is an amazing writer! "...resulting in a pit of infinitely deep darkness weighing as much as 49 suns..." The cold hard facts of the universe are so awesome as to be perfectly described by such a poetic phrase. Overbye perceives gravitational waves with his heart.
This is happy news. I can't wait for the next one, for the third detector to come online and for neutron stars to get in on the merger action.
My impression was they were only searching for mergers by non rotating objects, because the matched filters or convolution neural network required would expand the search space too much. Am I wrong?
My impression was they were only searching for mergers by non rotating objects, because the matched filters or convolution neural network required would expand the search space too much. Am I wrong?
1
Pure Flash Gordon. Studying the stars is fun but it sure doesn't help us solve our problems here on Earth. What we need is Ecology.
2
Astronomy and physics and mathematics permit understanding of the processes which make ecology. The ecology of Earth is ecology of the universe.
7
In due time it will help.
Truly amazing. I love the evidence that research and science presents. We are one planet and one human species on Earth, and there is so much more to be discovered. Great article, thanks!
6
The size disparity involved here is beyond belief - the objects combining to 40x our sun's mass an unimaginable distance of 3 billion light years away detected by movements smaller than the radius of an atom.
One question - how exactly do the researches know from the 'blip' data the original size of each individual black hole prior to the collision, or the distance for that matter? It seems as though a blip as described couldn't retain that information, unless there's something like red-shift in gravitational waves.
One question - how exactly do the researches know from the 'blip' data the original size of each individual black hole prior to the collision, or the distance for that matter? It seems as though a blip as described couldn't retain that information, unless there's something like red-shift in gravitational waves.
2
Doesn't science such as this give creationists reason to question their beliefs? We are not the center of the universe, far from it, more like, an accidental instance of many great unknowns. I'm comforted by this thought, and I try to keep some perspective when the trivial nature of my life gets in the way.
7
But our Vice President will tell you that the universe is only 6,000 years old and these perturbations we measure with our varied instruments are actually very small and very close (i.e. at most 6,000 light years away.
The damage that this administration will do to US leadership in science is immeasurable and may be irreversible
The damage that this administration will do to US leadership in science is immeasurable and may be irreversible
Probably not. But given what we know, the many great unknowns may include very small unknowns. The devil is in the detail.
There is nothing in an art museum that could be more beautiful than this. A brilliant mind develops a theory, others nearly as brilliant design a method and build a machine to test the theory and a team of dedicated and extremely smart people use that machine to show that the theory was correct.
Beauty indeed.
Beauty indeed.
8
Truly inspired and poetic science writing - thanks!
8
And if that doesn't give one a sense of perspective ...
7
Here we are in 2017, concerned with the state of the world, of our existence- Imagine way beyond your and my lifetime, 100 years from now. If we are getting close to "seeing" and understanding more about what is out there now, we are certain to be WAY farther along in our relationship with the universe (s) trump or no trump- even nuclear war- nature remains resilient. Wish I could be there then.
7
Our lifetimes may extend that far and further. I am sure the universe is a better place for your continued vitality. Please keep alive, for all our sakes
Love these scientists work. Good luck on the funding.
22
"A pit of infinitely deep darkness." An apt metaphor.
13
I love articles like this, to even try and comprehend the forces, distances and energies involved just shows how amazingly infinitesimal we are in this entire, uncontrollable, powerful and amazing universe.
far out I love it so!
far out I love it so!
30
No for-profit corporation would ever fund the LIGO observatories. This is an essential role for government. This science needs expansion, not reduction.
152
What's truly mind bending is roughly 95% of the universe ( what we know of ) is made up of dark matter and these celestial events that we get to see are really breathtaking.
It is what we don't see ( nor comprehend ) that is awe inspiring.
One will always wonder if this is just the natural progression of the universe expanding and\or contracting , or just the ripples of a much higher celestial power taking a bath.
The bottom line question will always remain; How did all of it come to be ?
It is what we don't see ( nor comprehend ) that is awe inspiring.
One will always wonder if this is just the natural progression of the universe expanding and\or contracting , or just the ripples of a much higher celestial power taking a bath.
The bottom line question will always remain; How did all of it come to be ?
70
Not quite accurate. What we call physical reality is made up of a force called dark energy which is 68% of the universe and a mass called dark matter which is 27% of the universe. The less than 5% remainder is all of the forms of mass and the forces that we know via relativity and quantum mechanics theory.
4
And what will it ultimately lead to, compounding collision of supermassive black holes, spawning innumerable parallel universes. of which we are one from another?
95% of the universe is not dark matter. 25% dark matter and 70% dark energy.
2
Just curious over what period of time the stars explode and then collapse into black holes?
6
Once the process starts it's all over in less than a second. The lead up to it can take some time but once the collapse starts it's nearly instantaneous. As for the lead up - that's a complicated answer. Do you start when stellar instability starts? When the sun starts to expand? When the collapse starts?
A very massive star (>30 solar masses) will live less than 10 million years, and the collapse to the black hole will happen at the very end of it life. Merger of two black holes in a binary system might take a very long time (even billions of years).
1
In reply to Aspen in New York City
A supernova resulting in a black hole generally collapses and explodes over the course of a few months.
A supernova resulting in a black hole generally collapses and explodes over the course of a few months.
3
"...those waves started jiggling LIGO’s mirrors back and forth by a fraction of an atomic diameter 20 times a second. The pitch rose to 180 cycles per second in about a tenth of a second before cutting off."
So mind-bending to try to imagine that vibration. ("Good Vibrations"?) Make sure to watch the video, so you can hear the chirp. It sounds so trivial, like the little pop of opening a bottle with compressed contents. I wonder if the better analogy is a cosmic toilet flushing?
So mind-bending to try to imagine that vibration. ("Good Vibrations"?) Make sure to watch the video, so you can hear the chirp. It sounds so trivial, like the little pop of opening a bottle with compressed contents. I wonder if the better analogy is a cosmic toilet flushing?
2
Fake news! #covfefe...
16
As the years pass I am more and more inclined to think Einstein was an alien plant by a far superior species, sent here to leave a trail of bread crumbs to help us find our way and stop clubbing each other like cavemen!
I am only kidding a little...haha
I am only kidding a little...haha
124
Einstein once said, "I am sometimes embarrassed to be a member of the human species."
5
Einstein was an experimental physicist and a mathematician. Einstein was not an experimental physicist. Einstein was no Robert Oppenheimer nor Hans Bethe nor Enrico Fermi nor Paul Dirac nor Kurt Godel nor Nicholas Copernicus nor Galileo Galilei nor Isaac Newton nor Nils Bohr. Einstein was no normal nice family man.
1
How about that with Billions times Billions of chances, we got really, really lucky.
The problem is that most people somehow feel "entitled" to this wonderful life chance!
The problem is that most people somehow feel "entitled" to this wonderful life chance!
"3 billion lightyears away" eh?? Lol, ok. How much of our tax payer dollars are wasted on meaningless things like this? This is the best que of all as to why you should home school your kids. To think that intelligent (yes even the people involved in this article lol) human beings are still chasing comical jokes like the "big-bang" and the "god particle" is really pathetic.
You think your funny, right?
Many of us realize that we live among people, many of whom are not educated, who would like to take us back to the middle ages!
We will NOT let that happen!
Many of us realize that we live among people, many of whom are not educated, who would like to take us back to the middle ages!
We will NOT let that happen!
46
You give homeschooling a bad name. For some, homeschooling is actually about educating, and not pretending that everything discovered after Newton is a hoax.
One of the things good students learn is this excellent maxim: If you don't understand something, it's not necessarily a hoax.
One of the things good students learn is this excellent maxim: If you don't understand something, it's not necessarily a hoax.
8
Making a star disappear would be a practical joke, not a comical joke. It wouldn't be too funny if the sun disappeared would it? It would be a pretty mean trick.
1
My theory is that's where our big bang came from. Our elements had to come from somewhere.
5
That's a sobering thought. What if there's another big bang in the making right now?
1
All of the elements heavier than hydrogen (and possibly helium) were generated in solar crucibles. The elements heavier than iron were all created in the forces of a super novae.
I'm not sure what you mean, but it sounds a bit like you simply kicked the can farther down the road. The "can" being this question:
What is the ultimate source of matter, energy, and the properties of the universe?
What is the ultimate source of matter, energy, and the properties of the universe?
A minor edit to "a journey last 3 billion light-years, a quarter the age of the universe": the journey lasted 3 billion years, during which light travelled 3 billion light-years. The latter is a measure of distance, not time.
But, this detracts from the main point - wonderful science and the spirit of exploration is still alive and well!
But, this detracts from the main point - wonderful science and the spirit of exploration is still alive and well!
If I remember correctly from Taylor and Wheeler, black holes of 31 solar masses and 19 solar masses will leave behind a 36 solar mass black hole, once the hole is done radiating away mass/energy.
Why 36? Pythagorean theorem: sqrt(31 * 31 + 19 * 19) = 36.4
Why 36? Pythagorean theorem: sqrt(31 * 31 + 19 * 19) = 36.4
4
Appears to be more complicated than that in general. Perhaps thatis some very nice special case. Not as authoritative as wheeler, but see https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/236133/does-the-mass-lost-by...
I thought I felt something!
27
Thanks for this incredible piece; had begun to think I was imagining that science still existed.
As always, it would be nice if scientists didn't feel the need to dumb things down - i.e. the breakdancing analogy. Holdover from the Reagan years, probably. If you want funding, explain it to the morons, like asking Mozart to write jingles. But in this day and age: we'll take it.
Others have probably pointed out it should be "grokking," with 2 ks.
As always, it would be nice if scientists didn't feel the need to dumb things down - i.e. the breakdancing analogy. Holdover from the Reagan years, probably. If you want funding, explain it to the morons, like asking Mozart to write jingles. But in this day and age: we'll take it.
Others have probably pointed out it should be "grokking," with 2 ks.
36
Since the "morons" are where the tax money comes from, then, yeah, it's important they understand what's going on. Otherwise, they might turn off the cash spigot.
If anyone's a moron here, they might be depleted in EQ, rather than IQ.
If anyone's a moron here, they might be depleted in EQ, rather than IQ.
7
James: I don't think scientists feel the "need" to dumb things down per se. I think, when they try to explain things to an average person, they soon discover that they need to come up with analogies by which that person can only begin to get what years of higher mathematics learning and minds capable of handling that allows a scientist to "grok".
This isn't "explain it to the morons". This is trying to give people not inclined towards deep scientific understanding a glimpse of the glory of the Universe that scientists see. As to Mozart: one doesn't have to understand music theory to appreciate music, but it is possible to get so caught up in music theory that one creates a piece that someone not versed in theory can't enjoy - until you figure out how to translate the attempt in a way they just might grasp.
This isn't "explain it to the morons". This is trying to give people not inclined towards deep scientific understanding a glimpse of the glory of the Universe that scientists see. As to Mozart: one doesn't have to understand music theory to appreciate music, but it is possible to get so caught up in music theory that one creates a piece that someone not versed in theory can't enjoy - until you figure out how to translate the attempt in a way they just might grasp.
1
IDK. I kind of liked that analogy! I could perfectly envision what was trying to be explained without much effort. And I LOVE science.
It would be timely to name them "Covfefe vibrations," except that we actually understand them better than we do President Trump's tweets.
66
Sure but when talking about science, the cosmos, and important things, wouldn't it be better to ignore the astounding idiocy of Trump? He has nothing to do with this and could not possibly understand it, I think it's better to leave him out of it, as with all discussions of things which require intelligence to comprehend.
You go LIGO!
13
This reporting is greatly appreciated. And I just got a great desktop picture for my computer!
22
Did space-time move for you too?
21
There is this question about the big-bang theory, how did it originate and what was there before. Could it be that there was a Universe similar to what we see around us and with a progression of black hole mergers, we ended up with this singularity we call the big-bang? Or to put the question the other way around: is there some limit to the merger of large black holes, so at some point the space-time warp around it is no longer able to sustain the incredible mass of this singularity and everything breaks loose - meaning the big-bang happens?
23
These are metaphysical questions that can only be answered by speculation.
6
Intuition suggests big bang, but not in 'this' universe, since BB is birth of a universe, the origin (inflection point?) of space-time. I just found an interesting Wikipedia article that may be relevant, 'Penrose–Hawking singularity theorems'.
I love to think that this is not "the first time round" and that for eons past and eons to come the universe will expand and expand to a point and then collapse again down over eons before it hits a rate that can't be stopped and it collapses into itself and then BANG!!!! off we go again on round x!!!!
If scientists are looking for a name for this phenomenon there's a certain tweet typo that's made to order.
10
I sought out this article because I find it fascinating, but some of the comments must always go back to Trump. And what is our role in the space-time continuum? What was our role when two black holes collided? Or if two black holes collide again? Our roles was/is nothing. We merely observe. Our role in the so-called "global warming" is nothing as well. That's the lesson from this article, not what Trump will happen to announce today or any other day.
2
"And what is our role in the space-time continuum? What was our role when two black holes collided?"
To observe, and to give the universe, of which we are a part, consciousnes and self-understanding. Eventually. We approach asymptoticaly.
To observe, and to give the universe, of which we are a part, consciousnes and self-understanding. Eventually. We approach asymptoticaly.
2
What a spectacularly ill-informed comment. The solid science behind black holes and these wonderful observations is big enough to encompass events for which we are just observers, and events we are intimately involved in. Push a glass off a table onto a hard floor - that's physics at work, and you can observe the result. And you sure had a role in it. Just as we can have a role in climate science.
5
Oh God, Thy Sea Is So Great And My Boat Is So Small.
But I'm beginning to understand how great.
And I'm working on a bigger boat.
But I'm beginning to understand how great.
And I'm working on a bigger boat.
20
'All that you touch You Change. All that you Change changes you. The only lasting truth is Change. God is Change' from 'The Parable of the Sower' by Octavia E. Butler
Whose god is god? And whose god is not? Whose boat is for who, when, why and where?
Whose god is god? And whose god is not? Whose boat is for who, when, why and where?
5
When you meet God, you know.
1
It is arrogant to think that God will ever bother to meet with you.
2
Articles like this are an Oasis in the continuum of the savage desert that defines the US political and philosophical landscape today. Thanks for this and keep 'em coming.
174
Awwww. 2 black holes just came together to gave a beautiful baby! Has anyone started doing research to find out how this will effect our climate?
1
Is this a dig at climate change? In case it is, well, science can affirmatively answer, to many, many, sigma, that the energy from this event is far too little to have any effect on climate. This should be obvious to anyone who knows anything about LIGO and that the primary challenge in its implementation is isolation of the apparatus from environmental phenomena which are orders of magnitude more energetic than the passing gravitational waves. Nice try, Chris. Oh, well, I suppose there are the measurable greenhouse emissions, associated with the data centers hosting of this article, which would no have occurred absent the waves. There's that. Yet again, though, these effects are obviously negligible to climate change. However, any contribution to science literacy, such as from this article, will ultimately help us reverse climate change and reverse the deleterious effect that the anti-science ignorant right wing has wrought upon America.
15
Yes, billions of years after the inevitable extinction of our species, our star will expand and incinerate the earth, and eventually be flushed into the massive black hole at the center of our galaxy. Which will eventually merge with another supermassive black hole, an infinitesimal burp wave in the fabric of space-time. So ultimately, global warming will be of no consequence.
Actually it is like a baby reentering the womb. This is not creation, it is regression.
Sounds like a cosmic junk mail folder.
4
Yeah, like "trump mail" dude, except it's science, not for consumption of people who don't care for, or want to understand it.
3
what?
1
Well, not at all really. It's more of a cosmic galaxy devourer. In a junk mail folder, you can actually look through it and see what the junk mail still is. In a black hole, when anything goes past the event horizon, it gets shredded down into, as far as we know, nothing but energy, and there's no way to retrieve it or know what it was.
6
Since those two black holes collided 3 billion light years away, that means that the Collision actually happened 3 billion years ago. We're just seeing now. Kind of mind-bending.
Thanks to these scientists and all the work that they do. Discoveries like this is are prime examples of why it's important to keep funding scientific research. Resist Republican budget cuts everywhere and ever which way you can.
Thanks to these scientists and all the work that they do. Discoveries like this is are prime examples of why it's important to keep funding scientific research. Resist Republican budget cuts everywhere and ever which way you can.
192
If it can vibrate and shake, then it can be bent.
We just need to discover the theorem to do this and we'll have a 'jump ship' to take us to the ends of the universe. To return us back to the stars.
We just need to discover the theorem to do this and we'll have a 'jump ship' to take us to the ends of the universe. To return us back to the stars.
4
Did the author explain how they know the distance these 2 colliding holes are? Also, how do they know their spin is not aligned?
2
Scientists can calculate the masses of each of a pair of black holes, their distance apart from one another, and their spin alignment by analyzing the "chirp" received at LIGO. That chirp is not a pure single frequency that rises from 30 to 180 Hertz in one-tenth of a second; rather, the chirp is modulated with complex patterns that the scientists analyze. There is a lot of information in that mere chirp.
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No there was no explanation of how the distance is derived. Scientists use the frequency or the distance between crests of the waves to determine the age of light waves reaching the earth. I assume they do the same for gravitational waves
Read some of the blue highlighted 'links' to get more information… There's plenty of it there!
Hard not to feel the presence of an Infinitely Powerful Consciousness...
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It isn't hard at all. What does consciousness have to do with it?
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And I thought that what I felt was a disturbance in 'the Force'.
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If they are measuring the black hole size in a unit of Sun size, then why when a black hole with a size of 19 has collided with a black hole with size of 39 then the result black hole must have a mass of 58 Suns. But instead there is a size 49 black hole.
My point is that why the mass conservation law is not Right here.
By this, one has to think that 9 Suns was the price of the merger process IF they actually merged.
My point is that why the mass conservation law is not Right here.
By this, one has to think that 9 Suns was the price of the merger process IF they actually merged.
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Since the discovery of relativity we don't say "mass conservation," but instead "mass-energy conservation." The mass in any case is converted into gravitational radiation. This is exactly in accord with general relativity. There is no reason to doubt it.
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E=MC2
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Indeed. My beloved Iranian brother E=MC2. Matter aka mass is converted into energy. That is the basis of nuclear fission and thermonuclear fusion. Look to the Sun fusing hydrogen and releasing energy.
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All is lost. Oh well, it's been fun here in the universe. . .
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"It validated Einstein’s longstanding prediction that space-time can shake like a bowlful of jelly when massive objects swing their weight around"
In harmony with Einstein's observation, it might be apt to call outer space, outer ocean or space ocean.
In harmony with Einstein's observation, it might be apt to call outer space, outer ocean or space ocean.
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I see that the good Dr. Stanek is a Heinlein fan. I wonder how many scientists he produced.
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Copernicus was a much more significant influence in his case :)
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Dr. Stanek's spelling is off; it should be "grokking" (double k). His spelling would be pronounced "grohking" (long o).
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Nature has no sense. God is a black hole. When all matter and energy were contained in the mother of all black holes the universe was created by the Big Bang.
Live your life as if it were the only existence you will have. (Nothing and nobody will ever be you again)
Live your life as if it were the only existence you will have. (Nothing and nobody will ever be you again)
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And you know this because...
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Jed Lane: Suppose "nature" had no "sense" until God evolved, by accident? If the universe is infinite, and is a multiverse of universes exhibiting different sets of properties and laws, then one of those universes could potentially result in a God that might transcend the "non-sense" and order at least some of it to "ITs" liking. We could be in a universe that was designed by such a God as opposed to the normal random course of events.
That's not to say our universe was created in 6 days and God is sitting somewhere micromanaging it ever since. (That's not to say it wasn't, either, by the way.)
Think about it. 95% of the universe is invisible, but it affects us enough for us to know it's there. Is God likewise massive and invisible, affecting us enough to know ITs there? (I say IT, because using such misleadingly limited, gender laden words as He could not possibly be usefully accurate enough.)
Understanding the universe, then, would be no less than being closer to God, presuming IT made this universe to end up with beings both like and unlike IT. Possibly out of sheer curiosity, possibly out of the need for fellowship with - eventually - other transcendent beings?
None of this may be true. But, it could be. I say it to show that we know way too little and are too unevolved (obviously) to be so sure one way or the other. We make discoveries, and act stupidly enough, every day to prove that. Still, I agree with your prescription for living, whatever reality is.
That's not to say our universe was created in 6 days and God is sitting somewhere micromanaging it ever since. (That's not to say it wasn't, either, by the way.)
Think about it. 95% of the universe is invisible, but it affects us enough for us to know it's there. Is God likewise massive and invisible, affecting us enough to know ITs there? (I say IT, because using such misleadingly limited, gender laden words as He could not possibly be usefully accurate enough.)
Understanding the universe, then, would be no less than being closer to God, presuming IT made this universe to end up with beings both like and unlike IT. Possibly out of sheer curiosity, possibly out of the need for fellowship with - eventually - other transcendent beings?
None of this may be true. But, it could be. I say it to show that we know way too little and are too unevolved (obviously) to be so sure one way or the other. We make discoveries, and act stupidly enough, every day to prove that. Still, I agree with your prescription for living, whatever reality is.
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While the information covered here is many times more detailed than most newspapers will ever dream of having for readers to digest and increase their wonder, it still lacks some additional interesting substance.
For example, how does LIGO data allow the astronomers to determine distance? Determine mass of the two black holes? Determine the spin (as implied in one astronomer's comment)?
I'm not looking for a post grad course in physics, but a few paragraphs of explanation might help flesh out an otherwise fascinating article. Similar to the original piece on neutrinos perhaps travelling faster than light, later disproved with a bad detector connection, those details are tantalizing enough to the interested reader to know a wee bit more.
For example, how does LIGO data allow the astronomers to determine distance? Determine mass of the two black holes? Determine the spin (as implied in one astronomer's comment)?
I'm not looking for a post grad course in physics, but a few paragraphs of explanation might help flesh out an otherwise fascinating article. Similar to the original piece on neutrinos perhaps travelling faster than light, later disproved with a bad detector connection, those details are tantalizing enough to the interested reader to know a wee bit more.
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LIGO is not one facility, it is two identical facilities. One is in Washington State, the other in Louisiana. When a gravitational wave passes through the Earth, each one records it with the same signal, but at different times. That time difference tells them what direction the wave came from.
As far as the details about distance, size, and spin, that's all in the characteristics of the chirp. What the frequencies are, how they progress, and how they decay. The article describes how the chirp started at 20 Hz and increased to 180 Hz. Two larger black holes will have a different frequency profile than two small black holes.
As far as the details about distance, size, and spin, that's all in the characteristics of the chirp. What the frequencies are, how they progress, and how they decay. The article describes how the chirp started at 20 Hz and increased to 180 Hz. Two larger black holes will have a different frequency profile than two small black holes.
Dale - God works in mysterious ways.
I suspect that information not shown would involve a lot of math equations, of math higher than Calculus. Most people don't understand that kind of math.
Thanks to the New York Times and Mr. Overbye for this well-written article. Though many people will question my opinion, I think that the discoveries made by the LIGO team will impact the lives of our grandchildren in ways we can't comprehend now.
The knowledge the team teases out of the data will ripple through time just like the waves they've discovered.
Times may now be tough for science, but this will pass. To the team, please know that there are people out there who appreciate your efforts and value your work.
The knowledge the team teases out of the data will ripple through time just like the waves they've discovered.
Times may now be tough for science, but this will pass. To the team, please know that there are people out there who appreciate your efforts and value your work.
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Mark: Not just the raw knowledge from the data collected is important. The engineering advances achieved in building experiments and developing better and better observation instrumentalities flow into direct and indirect development of and improvements to many things used every day by the average consumer. Think of the telescope, adopted and improved upon by Galileo and Newton for their astronomy uses, the most obvious fallout being binoculars and camera lens.
Can someone compute for me the wavelengths of these waves at their peak frequency? Thought-provoking article for sure.
The velocity v of a wave, the frequency nu and the wavelength lambda are related by the formula
v=lambda nu
For gravitational waves v=c=300 000 km/sec, in the article nu is mentioned to be 180 Hz and hence the wavelength is 300 000/180 km = 1600 km.
v=lambda nu
For gravitational waves v=c=300 000 km/sec, in the article nu is mentioned to be 180 Hz and hence the wavelength is 300 000/180 km = 1600 km.
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So wonderful to read this and watch the video, before hearing the ignorant Donald blather his "decision" about the Paris Accord. It just gives infinite perspective on how little he matters. All hail science!
Btw, my guess is that he keeps the Accord, if only to get a little love ... but I could also be utterly wrong ....
Btw, my guess is that he keeps the Accord, if only to get a little love ... but I could also be utterly wrong ....
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Let's hope the Luddites in Washington don't slash the budget for such projects. Imagination doesn't seem to be a current commodity in politics.
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Rather than Luddites, surely you mean Prosperity Gospel Republicans? Luddites were highly skilled technical people who thought progress should serve all people, not just the rich. Trump apparently can't/won't break a sweat for fear of losing his Brig. Gen. Jack D. Ripper covfefe fluidiness. Science should do that for him. No Science; no jobs. Bottom line.
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Apparently Trump really wants to get to Mars. Whatever else you think about him, at least there's a decent chance he's not going to defund scientific research.
Einstein for president. Science triumphs again. On the eve of a decision on our planet's climatic fate, what is poor old Einstein saying to himself about the short-sighted nature of the majority of the human race. And what hope does he still hold, knowing the time is essentially infinite.
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Einstein already replied to your question when he said there were only two certainties in the Universe: the infinity of Universe itself and the infinity of Man's stupidity and he wasn't sure about the Universe...
Really smart and insightful guy...
Really smart and insightful guy...
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Einstein did not like nor accept quantum mechanics. Einstein made-up the cosmological constant thus failing to predict dark energy expansion. Time had a finite beginning with space.
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Einstein made intelligent arguments against quantum mechanics. His conclusions were wrong but the arguments have helped keep physicists on their toes for years.
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Fascinating article, but I think it could have used more of the phrase, "of course, we don't really know". For example, the notion that black holes would be a deep, dark pit is rather incorrect, although a nice turn of phrase. The depth inside would be zero, as it (theoretically) becomes a zero-dimensional point. The darkness would be very difficult to figure, as there would be nothing capable of registering light that could survive within. But since the area between the Schwarzchild radius (the point of no return) and the center would be full of photons, you could also say "inside" a black hole it'd be astoundingly bright.
Another quibble is that the theories for how these black holes could have been created close enough to collide are based on nothing more than educated guesses. It would have been good to point out that we have no idea how this happened, and it will take a lot more studying to understand it.
Like, it's quite possible that these singularities were created by a sufficiently advanced species, for use in war or as transportation infrastructure. This is just about as valid as the other guesses in the article, as we really don't have anything to go on.
Black holes are terribly important in the universe, as they may be the end stage of all matter, and the grim reaper for galaxies, but could also be used for energy and transportation. But it's good to keep in mind, we still know very little about them.
Another quibble is that the theories for how these black holes could have been created close enough to collide are based on nothing more than educated guesses. It would have been good to point out that we have no idea how this happened, and it will take a lot more studying to understand it.
Like, it's quite possible that these singularities were created by a sufficiently advanced species, for use in war or as transportation infrastructure. This is just about as valid as the other guesses in the article, as we really don't have anything to go on.
Black holes are terribly important in the universe, as they may be the end stage of all matter, and the grim reaper for galaxies, but could also be used for energy and transportation. But it's good to keep in mind, we still know very little about them.
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The tiny stellar black holes are separated from the massive galactic black holes by ignorance. Theoretical physics and mathematics must be confirmed by real world observation and experimentation.
The special theory of relativity says the speed of light is universally constant. The general theory of relativity says gravity is warped space time. There is no theory of everything that unites the theories of quantum mechanics and the relative.
The special theory of relativity says the speed of light is universally constant. The general theory of relativity says gravity is warped space time. There is no theory of everything that unites the theories of quantum mechanics and the relative.
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I loved your fascinating and enlightening theory! You made me think even harder...
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The claim that "it's quite possible that these singularities were created by a sufficiently advanced species" has as much merit as "Intelligent Design" and, further, although not directly observed, the formation of black holes is explained well by general relativity and is consistent with observation.
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So in 2015 when this faint wave hit earth, we lost time? Gained time? No matter how small, could it have had an effect as it washed over us? Did things on earth weigh differently for a fraction of a moment?
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Not a physicist so I can't answer your great question, but I will just note that astronauts orbiting the earth for 6 months gain a tiny fraction of a second, due to relativistic time dilation.
"[After a] 6 month trip . . . the astronauts would be about .007 seconds younger than if thay had stayed on the Earth."
https://einstein.stanford.edu/content/relativity/q2739.html
"[After a] 6 month trip . . . the astronauts would be about .007 seconds younger than if thay had stayed on the Earth."
https://einstein.stanford.edu/content/relativity/q2739.html
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When the black holes collided, we lost time. I will therefore withhold a small portion of this months rent.
Alex: In a word - yes.
So it seems that massive black holes are relatively common in the universe. To what extent then could they comprise the cosmos' dark matter?
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Black holes that were a significant component of dark matter would be Massive Compact Halo Objects (MACHOs). Scientists have searched MACHOs by their effects on the apparent brightness of stars via gravitational lensing. (A particular star would appear to get brighter and then fainter.) These searches have shown that MACHOs can't account for most of dark matter. Instead, Weakly Interacting Massive Particles (WIMPs) are favored over MACHOs as the best current explanation for dark matter.
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The existence of dark matter is inferred entirely based upon the gravitational cohesion of galaxies coupled with the speed of stellar rotation within galaxies. The amount of visible matter coupled with supermassive black holes at galactic centers can not account for what is observed. There is a massive theoretical and obsevational gap between stellar and galactic black holes.
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MACHOs an WIMPs and stars, oh my! Henry's comment reminds me of a wonderful book I'd recommend: "Black Hole Blues" by Janna Levin. Chronicles the decades-long work of so many to get the Ligo project funded and up and running. Testament to a monumental effort by thousands - and illustrating the importance of continued science funding. And these folks are a humorously quirky bunch with their naming games...
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Wonderful piece!
And our president will announce at 3 pm EDT today-- assuming gravitational waves do not distort the exact time-- will announce that the Paris Climate accord is history as far as the US is concerned and he is OK with the unbridled heating of the planet and renounces our role.
And our president will announce at 3 pm EDT today-- assuming gravitational waves do not distort the exact time-- will announce that the Paris Climate accord is history as far as the US is concerned and he is OK with the unbridled heating of the planet and renounces our role.
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I can't help but wonder whether the answer to how you produce black holes of these sizes isn't in the event itself: by progressively merging smaller ones originally produced by stellar collapse.
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What explains the origin of supermassive galactic black holes?
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Black holes everywhere. According to this presentation black holes are 3-D objects that when a star collapses it reaches where the collapse stops. Is the bottom of a black hole enclosed or is it another opening? According the animation the hole forms a sphere in which gravitational waves are formed by its rotation. Or is it like stone thrown into a pond in which ripples drift away from the center?
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If this information doesn't show how insignificant our sun and earth is, I don't know what will. We only have this planet for as long as we don't destroy it.
Lucky that it is "very" far away, and that our little planet is protected as well as it is. It would take little on a "universal" basis to do us all in.
With this in mind, can we all work together to improve the lot of man, and initially get the US back in business again so we can lead the process to a better life for all mankind.
Lucky that it is "very" far away, and that our little planet is protected as well as it is. It would take little on a "universal" basis to do us all in.
With this in mind, can we all work together to improve the lot of man, and initially get the US back in business again so we can lead the process to a better life for all mankind.
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Very true, Piper Pilot, except that so far, we can't destroy the earth. We are way too puny to destroy this planet yet, even if we fired every nuke we've got. It would only make the surface unlivable for most animals, but the planet, and basic life, would get through it, and something would evolve to take over our preeminent spot.
Also it's pretty clear that the U.S. is no longer fit to lead the world. All empires must end, and ours is in that process. But humanity might still find a way to live here without making it uninhabitable to us.
Also it's pretty clear that the U.S. is no longer fit to lead the world. All empires must end, and ours is in that process. But humanity might still find a way to live here without making it uninhabitable to us.
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Dan, do you find it as fascinating, inexplicable, and disturbing to watch the U.S. committing national suicide?
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Hiya Thomas, and it's fascinating and disturbing, but I wouldn't say the fall of the U.S. is inexplicable. Most empires hit this stage, what happens is the nation hits its peak power, and then everyone born into it can kick back and take it easy. The Romans had their orgies and vomitoriums, we have "reality TV" and meth, but it always seems to happen that without anything to strive against, people get lazy and thus more ignorant.
However, with every empire our species advances considerably, like the Romans would never have figured out what black holes were. In a few centuries, we might be manufacturing our own singularities, and it'll be done by a new empire that learned from the mistakes of the U.S., I'd hope.
However, with every empire our species advances considerably, like the Romans would never have figured out what black holes were. In a few centuries, we might be manufacturing our own singularities, and it'll be done by a new empire that learned from the mistakes of the U.S., I'd hope.
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Why is it a death of black holes when two collide? Isn't it more like merge of two black holes resulting in one with the combined mass?
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...less the energy aka mass lost in the merger.
If they are measuring the black hole size in a unit of Sun size, then why when a black hole with a size of 19 has collided with a black hole with size of 31 then the result black hole must have a mass of 58 Suns. But instead there is a size 49 black hole.
My point is that why the mass conservation law is not Right here.
By this, one has to think that 1 Sun was the price of the merger process IF they actually merged.
My point is that why the mass conservation law is not Right here.
By this, one has to think that 1 Sun was the price of the merger process IF they actually merged.
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Dear Frank,
Yes, the merger created one with combined mass.
Dear Raad,
The discrepancy is due to the inexact measurements given. It should have said, one of approximately 19 solar masses hit one of approximately 31 masses, turning it into one with approximately 49 or 50 masses. No mass could be eliminated or added in the process.
Yes, the merger created one with combined mass.
Dear Raad,
The discrepancy is due to the inexact measurements given. It should have said, one of approximately 19 solar masses hit one of approximately 31 masses, turning it into one with approximately 49 or 50 masses. No mass could be eliminated or added in the process.
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A well-written piece on a fascinating event. I especially liked the author's good-humored dig, ". . . lacking heavier elements like oxygen and carbon, which astronomers with their knack for nomenclature call "metals,” . . ."
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