The Manchester bomber was an adherent of a barbaric, cruel, evil idea: Totalitarian Islam. This idea is as perverse and obscene as Germany's National Socialism and Japan's Shintoism. All three demand abject servitude of their followers. All three declare that human life - every human's life - is fit to be crushed by some collective (The Reich, The Empire, or The Ummah).
When you remember the children killed by the barbarian bomber in Manchester, remember that Iran's Ayatollah Khomeini sent Iranian children to die by setting off mines in minefields. And shooting those that tried to escape this fate.
This is Totalitarian Islam, of which Iran is the greatest sponsor and shining light. It is death and destruction writ large. The fastest way to stop it - like the fastest way to stop the Japanese kamikaze attacks - is to bludgeon its "spiritual" centers: Iran and Saudi Arabia. Anything less than unconditional surrender on their part is simply more evidence to them and their followers that the US, and the West, is weak and deserving of more death and destruction.
When you remember the children killed by the barbarian bomber in Manchester, remember that Iran's Ayatollah Khomeini sent Iranian children to die by setting off mines in minefields. And shooting those that tried to escape this fate.
This is Totalitarian Islam, of which Iran is the greatest sponsor and shining light. It is death and destruction writ large. The fastest way to stop it - like the fastest way to stop the Japanese kamikaze attacks - is to bludgeon its "spiritual" centers: Iran and Saudi Arabia. Anything less than unconditional surrender on their part is simply more evidence to them and their followers that the US, and the West, is weak and deserving of more death and destruction.
4
have YOU done it?do you see yourself doing it? is it common?
terrorist actions,no matter the weapon, are psychopathic as well as sociopathic. it doesn't matter if the malleable nutcase operative was trained and abetted by some other actor or not. people who are not crazy do not do these things...but people who are truly evil can find them and use them as tools, while not planning to themselves wind up immediately dead.
the exclusivity of religion is the forge in which these arrows of hatred are annealed.
terrorist actions,no matter the weapon, are psychopathic as well as sociopathic. it doesn't matter if the malleable nutcase operative was trained and abetted by some other actor or not. people who are not crazy do not do these things...but people who are truly evil can find them and use them as tools, while not planning to themselves wind up immediately dead.
the exclusivity of religion is the forge in which these arrows of hatred are annealed.
1
Hopefully, one day, the Times will mourn the young victims of our bombs as much a they mourn the victims of our enemies' bombs. Have you ever heard of cluster bombs, Timothy?
3
Tim Egan: I read the Times daily as befits the brother of a former Times reporter ("it's the best newspaper in the world"). You are one of the columnists I read before turning to the news. But "lets get the facts straight."--- "Lone assassination of an obscure Balkan figure"? Were your editors asleep? OBSCURE??? Sarajevo may be in the Balkans, but the (non-Balkan) heir to the throne of a European empire, an empire larger than 1914 France (676,615 km2 to 630,678) ??? (larger than California, second in area only to Texas)---figures from Wikipedia... As for historical and political importance, just ask Georges Clemenceau, who swore to demolish that empire forever---and succeeded. "...lone assassination"? His wife was also assassinated.
Full disclosure: my father served for four years in the Austro-Hungarian army. I'm a native-born first-generation American WW II veteran, (happy to be living in France right now).
Full disclosure: my father served for four years in the Austro-Hungarian army. I'm a native-born first-generation American WW II veteran, (happy to be living in France right now).
6
How naive can you be...did no one notice that the muslim response to Manchester was "blew up a group of crusaders" We are still the crusaders to these people of the middle east. They are still fighting a war begun 1400 years ago. They are fighting the long war. This immigration is actually an invasion. Every time they do something like this it glorifies their cause. They love seeing images of destruction on TV. They love to see you cry. They love to see you stand in solidarity, because they know that you will do nothing. This will continue until the entire world is muslim....that is their stated plan....just ask them...and if they kill everyone on earth to make that happen (as ridiculous as that statement is) they will be all the happier....they desire the elimination of western civilization....
3
Religion, the opiate of the masses. And, the meth of the fundamentalists.
25
makes you embarassed to be from Queens, doesn't it?
Please stop it, with the Muslim apologist routine. ISIS tells you point blank what happened, and you try to excuse it as a deranged individual.
Then you go on to bemoan: "No leader in Europe has shown Churchillian will or insight." Of course not, Europe as well as people like you, exhibit the Neville Chamberlain approach; appease, appease, appease. Trump lacks Churchill's skill as an orator, but his approach to dealing with terrorists is closer to The British Bulldog's than anyone else currently.
Then you go on to bemoan: "No leader in Europe has shown Churchillian will or insight." Of course not, Europe as well as people like you, exhibit the Neville Chamberlain approach; appease, appease, appease. Trump lacks Churchill's skill as an orator, but his approach to dealing with terrorists is closer to The British Bulldog's than anyone else currently.
3
Every day with Trump as POTUS brings new horror. We have become the laughingstock of the world.
G7 in Taormina, Sicily is a wreck. Trump refuses to stay at the same hotel as the other world leaders. He demands a 30 car procession up the streets. I’ve spent a lot of time in Taormina and the rest of Sicily. It’s tough for ONE small car to make its way up the ancient winding road.
Trump’s refusing to agree to a world-wide agreement on refugees! Doesn’t want to agree to the 2015 Paris Climate Accord--why? Because Obama signed it!
I am SICK of this petulant child. While In Brussels (“that hellhole”) while the EU attempted to explain trade and unity, Trump only responded if the talk involved HIS businesses! Ireland--“Too HARD to get a golf course!” Scotland’ ’Oh what I had to go through--the REGULATIONS!” The leaders just looked at each other...WT?
Oh but Trump went all loco when he found out that CHRISTIANS were killed. He could NOT put it together that he just told the leader of Egypt, el-Sisi, how much they were alike--both hated the media--Oh and Trump liked his shoes.
Why am I going on? Trump is pissing off the world. He’s the embodiment of the Ugly American who thinks the rest of the world should kow-tow to him. We are going to get 9/11 all over again. He LOVED Saudi Arabia where 15 of the 19 9/11 terrorists were from! He cared NOTHING about their horrific record on human rights..”Not here to lecture you.”
Hell this Vietnam Vet is beginning to hate the USA!
G7 in Taormina, Sicily is a wreck. Trump refuses to stay at the same hotel as the other world leaders. He demands a 30 car procession up the streets. I’ve spent a lot of time in Taormina and the rest of Sicily. It’s tough for ONE small car to make its way up the ancient winding road.
Trump’s refusing to agree to a world-wide agreement on refugees! Doesn’t want to agree to the 2015 Paris Climate Accord--why? Because Obama signed it!
I am SICK of this petulant child. While In Brussels (“that hellhole”) while the EU attempted to explain trade and unity, Trump only responded if the talk involved HIS businesses! Ireland--“Too HARD to get a golf course!” Scotland’ ’Oh what I had to go through--the REGULATIONS!” The leaders just looked at each other...WT?
Oh but Trump went all loco when he found out that CHRISTIANS were killed. He could NOT put it together that he just told the leader of Egypt, el-Sisi, how much they were alike--both hated the media--Oh and Trump liked his shoes.
Why am I going on? Trump is pissing off the world. He’s the embodiment of the Ugly American who thinks the rest of the world should kow-tow to him. We are going to get 9/11 all over again. He LOVED Saudi Arabia where 15 of the 19 9/11 terrorists were from! He cared NOTHING about their horrific record on human rights..”Not here to lecture you.”
Hell this Vietnam Vet is beginning to hate the USA!
11
Thank you for a thought provoking piece. Thank you for not joining the circus.
3
In his farewell address President Eisenhower prophetically warned U.S. citizens about the "military–industrial complex". More than Fifty years later America is still unable to confront their twisted relationship with war and its trappings.
1
Archduke Franz Ferdinand was an obscure Balkan Figure?
3
Early news reports had the Pope saying to Trump, "It is my desire that you become an olive tree to construct peace." The peace medal Trump received also bore the olive tree,
Never has the world's thinking been so focused on the developmental learning of one man.
Never has the world's thinking been so focused on the developmental learning of one man.
2
Tim Egan invokes WW1 and claims that a lone assassin triggered it. "Are there enough people like [Abedi] to destabilize Europe?" he asks. What can he mean?
- Is there a Muslim 5th column sufficiently large to rise up and sieze power? (A bogey touted by the alt-right).
- Will isolated outrages suffice to shatter the structures of Europe, set countries at one another's throats and fundamentally alter European values? Perhaps that's it as he later writes "Their design, such as it is, is to sweep away basic democratic values and put Europe in lockdown." If that's what he means though the analogy with WW1 is beyond weak. An assassin triggered WW1 because Europe was like a box full of primed mousetraps, with Powers locked into violent reciprocal responses to provocation. Comparable conditions simply do not exist.
Perhaps a more relevant analogy drawn from WW1 would be the Ottoman Empire's treatment of its Armenian communities. Both Islamist provocateurs and European nationalists who predict a Muslim coup-by-stealth might wish for this. All the more reason to resist attempts to drive wedges.
As to the rest - if this is a war then compromising peacetime freedoms and enduring casualties will be necessary and unavoidable for a time. That does not amount to an abandonment of core European values, or commitment to democracy or to the failure of states, rather their defence. Blood, toil, tears and sweat maybe but no retreat into hostile autocratic statelets unless we lose our nerve.
- Is there a Muslim 5th column sufficiently large to rise up and sieze power? (A bogey touted by the alt-right).
- Will isolated outrages suffice to shatter the structures of Europe, set countries at one another's throats and fundamentally alter European values? Perhaps that's it as he later writes "Their design, such as it is, is to sweep away basic democratic values and put Europe in lockdown." If that's what he means though the analogy with WW1 is beyond weak. An assassin triggered WW1 because Europe was like a box full of primed mousetraps, with Powers locked into violent reciprocal responses to provocation. Comparable conditions simply do not exist.
Perhaps a more relevant analogy drawn from WW1 would be the Ottoman Empire's treatment of its Armenian communities. Both Islamist provocateurs and European nationalists who predict a Muslim coup-by-stealth might wish for this. All the more reason to resist attempts to drive wedges.
As to the rest - if this is a war then compromising peacetime freedoms and enduring casualties will be necessary and unavoidable for a time. That does not amount to an abandonment of core European values, or commitment to democracy or to the failure of states, rather their defence. Blood, toil, tears and sweat maybe but no retreat into hostile autocratic statelets unless we lose our nerve.
I thought of Winston Churchill's view of Islam in 1899: rather than reproduce it in it's entirety, here is the twitter version: Winston Churchill 1899. "Individual Muslims may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world."===============================================================================================
8
Great article, especially when you mention the cue cards. He was probably also exhausted from the jet lag and generally poor health. What a joke to
have him representing the USA.
have him representing the USA.
1
Is a US made bomb dropping on a school or kids area in Yemen less significant than the Manchester tragedy, and are the intentions of the bombers less heinous?
1
I used to naively not understand hate crimes: from the perspective of the victim-dead is dead. Intentionality is everything. What does it mean when a psychopath or zealot saws off a head for propaganda? Horrible. From a different perspective, what does it mean if a government buys arms to starve and bomb a people. Horrible. Both horrible. As our finer culture recedes, diplomacy, statesmanship, sanctions, commerce, compassion, thoughtful religious restraint. I always knew and have seen borne out, that the next terrorist attack will come from a vast sea of ignorance and poverty. I see lots of rubble in streets far away. I know many millions are starving-- in Yemen, in Syria, In Africa. The terrorists of 20 years from now are spawned in the ghettoes all over the world of today.
2
He wasn't a psychopath. His ideology, and indeed, his religion, are psychopathic. Western societies seem to believe, or perhaps just hope, that rational people will moderate the psychopathy of Islam, but I have my doubts that it will turn out that way. Patience is running out.
2
Another powerful piece of writing from TImothy Egan. As always, he blends events past and present with masterful grasp of each. One more compelling reason to subscribe to the NYT.
10
What is the purpose of any act of war? Clearly the leader wants something but in the world toady. where terrorism is the tactic of choice, what do the leaders of organizations using terrorism really want?
This isn't an easy or a trick question but it is essential to any effort to stop the carnage. Perhaps vilifying the perpetrators, their families, their race, their religion is not productive as it is exactly what the leader wants. He wants the moderates to be vilified, marginalized and driven into the open arms of the terrorist leader who firmly believes that if he can foment and all-out war he will be victorious and the Divine will hand over the ownership of the planet to him alone.
Every leader wants temporal power, regardless of the religious packaging. The leader has ancient and current grievances and is sure that if only he takes command of the universe will things be as they should be.
Psychotic, sociopathic, insane,...? Yes, all of the above. We are dealing with madmen, not rational leaders. Most humans don't want Armageddon but a few really sick people do and if alienating whole groups will further that cause then alienate all of them and let the war begin.
There is one thing those leaders cannot survive: That the rest of us love the people that he claims to represent.
This isn't an easy or a trick question but it is essential to any effort to stop the carnage. Perhaps vilifying the perpetrators, their families, their race, their religion is not productive as it is exactly what the leader wants. He wants the moderates to be vilified, marginalized and driven into the open arms of the terrorist leader who firmly believes that if he can foment and all-out war he will be victorious and the Divine will hand over the ownership of the planet to him alone.
Every leader wants temporal power, regardless of the religious packaging. The leader has ancient and current grievances and is sure that if only he takes command of the universe will things be as they should be.
Psychotic, sociopathic, insane,...? Yes, all of the above. We are dealing with madmen, not rational leaders. Most humans don't want Armageddon but a few really sick people do and if alienating whole groups will further that cause then alienate all of them and let the war begin.
There is one thing those leaders cannot survive: That the rest of us love the people that he claims to represent.
1
WW1 was a massive overreaction to a terrorist act. The 2nd Iraq war was a massive overreaction to a terrorist act. Can we call this a lesson learned? Let the police deal with these psychopaths and leave the soldiers in their barracks to prepare for a real war should it arise.
4
world war I was precipitated by a revolutionary Serbian, but the powers of Europe were ready for war far before the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand. The Austrian-Hungarian empire was ruled from Vienna and was cruel, greedy and unjust to conquered people. Princip, the assassin, was a revolutionary and only wanted a Serbian Republic.
The Iraq war was planned and executed by the American empire, and we are no better than any other empire in history.
The Iraq war was planned and executed by the American empire, and we are no better than any other empire in history.
Rather than allow intelligence gathering agencies and law enforcement to do their jobs (jobs I believe they do spectacularly well given that we live in an open society) of preventing such attacks and apprehending the guilty, Trumpists want to make this a war of civilizations. Is it because they believe terrorists are everywhere and the scale of response necessitates involving our Armed Forces? Is it the inability to be patient long enough to permit law enforcement to do their work? That waiting for such justice isn't an active enough measure and fails the "manly testosterone" test? Or is it that their idea of a "great America" doesn't comport with an America at peace? In any case, I fear that DJT will wage war, if for no other reason than to deflect the Russia investigation.
7
Don't you understand that war is an economy of the most basic sort. Money. The second world war made the US rich and and an Empire. Then, when the USSR fell apart, the insane drug war. Lots of money there. Now we have the war on Terrorism. Ka-Ching!
It does not matter how right you are when there is that much money to be made.
It does not matter how right you are when there is that much money to be made.
"“Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to ensure the survival and the success of liberty.”
So, who did we liberate by killing 100s of thousands since JFK?
So, who did we liberate by killing 100s of thousands since JFK?
3
We killed hundreds of thousands during JFK
This is not a seriously organized international conspiracy. It is ad hoc copy-cat cells.
Public mental illness manifesting as paranoid schizophrenia is quite evident in the US. This country needs its head shrunk.
Public mental illness manifesting as paranoid schizophrenia is quite evident in the US. This country needs its head shrunk.
3
My theory is that many of the disaffected youth are angry that their lives did not turn out like a rap stars. Because they are rebuffed by women. Mad because they are men and when they are disrespected in any manner, they take it viscerally.
Their lives are zilch in comparison to those on social media sites.
They feel dishonored because their religious male privilege is not happening in the West.
Their revenge towards blowing up innocents is just that, Muslim revenge for any number of reasons. And no, we can not fix it or their lives.
Their lives are zilch in comparison to those on social media sites.
They feel dishonored because their religious male privilege is not happening in the West.
Their revenge towards blowing up innocents is just that, Muslim revenge for any number of reasons. And no, we can not fix it or their lives.
10
Congrats, KT.
In one single comment, you managed to exhibit: prejudice, technophobia and ignorance, smearing one of the world's great religions, and evince a tremendous lack of perspective. Tremendously. Boggles the mind, really.
In one single comment, you managed to exhibit: prejudice, technophobia and ignorance, smearing one of the world's great religions, and evince a tremendous lack of perspective. Tremendously. Boggles the mind, really.
1
Trump is worse than our worst nightmare. He's itching for war -- bigly. He doesn't ask for help from NATO, and he withholds any commitment to mutual defense under the NATO treaty. Instead, he promises to be there for our "friends" -- Donald's friends. If Russia tests NATO's resolve to defend member states on Russia's borders, whose side will Donald be on? The fact that we have to ask this question is temptation enough for Putin, who longs for the resurrection of the USSR and the Iron Curtain.
9
McMaster, or somebody, should teach Trump about George W Bush's ambition to be a consequential president, and how his ill-advised invasion of Iraq succeeded in making him consequential, but in a bigly bad way.
4
Every American should read this book: A Line in the Sand: Britain, France and the Struggle that shaped the Middle East by James Barr, but particularly pay attention to the advice of President Wilson to Britain and France in 1916. "You cannot make a nation out of tribes.Proceed with this plan (Sykes-Picot) and in a century from now, there will be non-stop war in the Middle East".
13
Mr Foley ;You might want to look at and add the African struggles which seem to be boiling nicely & may well come a day when they will replace the Mid-east
Mr, Eagan: While in no way condoning his murderous behavior, I strongly object to your calling the suicide bomber a psychopath, especially in the absence of a great deal of clinical personality information.
People become suicide bombers for all sorts of reasons. And the result is surely murder, but much as we wish to demonized the behavior, we must be careful about demonizing the individual who engages in such barbarous acts.
Why do I feel so strongly about this? Because we hope to identify such individuals and help them. That's why.
Psychopaths, or sociopaths the more modern diagnostic term, have extremely severe character disorders - highly resistant to change. They lack empathy, care little about other human beings and do not fit in well to any organizational structure or set of ideals.
As despicable as we may find ISIS itself, it is extremely well organized, with a structured ideology and fixed behavioral expectations. I denounce their ideology, their organizational system, their objectives and their methods. But believe me, they expect obedience from their recruits. And psychopaths are highly resistant to such obedience.
If we have any hope of identifying and prying young people away from ISIS and like terrorist groups, please let us refrain from demonizing those who are drawn into this shady world - a world of propaganda, of manipulation, of brain-washing.
Let's salvage as many of the fellow human beings as we can.
People become suicide bombers for all sorts of reasons. And the result is surely murder, but much as we wish to demonized the behavior, we must be careful about demonizing the individual who engages in such barbarous acts.
Why do I feel so strongly about this? Because we hope to identify such individuals and help them. That's why.
Psychopaths, or sociopaths the more modern diagnostic term, have extremely severe character disorders - highly resistant to change. They lack empathy, care little about other human beings and do not fit in well to any organizational structure or set of ideals.
As despicable as we may find ISIS itself, it is extremely well organized, with a structured ideology and fixed behavioral expectations. I denounce their ideology, their organizational system, their objectives and their methods. But believe me, they expect obedience from their recruits. And psychopaths are highly resistant to such obedience.
If we have any hope of identifying and prying young people away from ISIS and like terrorist groups, please let us refrain from demonizing those who are drawn into this shady world - a world of propaganda, of manipulation, of brain-washing.
Let's salvage as many of the fellow human beings as we can.
10
The exigencies of an endless war economy demand that we demonize them. How is the MIC going to turn a profit if we "help them"?
1
Ed: You get it. Notice how we are up against "mad-men" like Kim in North Korea and the Iranians. If we convince ourselves that they are beneath us, we can justify any actions. Case in point: The phony, ineffective, expensive and immoral drug war.
It is a sinister world we live and a sinister country (empire) we live in.
It is a sinister world we live and a sinister country (empire) we live in.
The Way We Kill Now--are you kidding? Selling arms to Saudi Arabia, drone strikes, Iraq war, Persian Gulf War etc, etc. The Manchester terrorist attack is horrific and cannot be justified on any grounds but how can you ignore the senseless killing caused by our country. This article is ridiculous and does not honor the memory of those senselessly killed by terrorism.
12
this seems perilously one-sided. Allied WW II bombing of cities was even worse than the Germany's. Manchester terrorist attack is cruel and heartless. But we must see, horrible as it is, it's a demented response to our attacks in the Middle East and even Libya, were we've killed probably hundreds of thousands, and destroyed most of these countries. Even our recent bombings in Iraq and Syria have recklessly killed even more civilians, incl children, than the Manchester atrocity did. But we take no heed about the lives of these innocents. So we didn't target them specifically, but they are the product of our destructive, aggressive war in the ME.
2
I agree with Noam Chomsky. Not targeting someone specifically hardly makes killing less reprehensible.
This ex Seattleite (and Peace Corps alum) was all with you, Tim, until...those words from JFK (whom my father served by working at USIA). Pope Francis would not abide by those words, nor should any one of us who truly believe we humans can, and must, get along without violence in any form. This is no time for normally clarion voices like yours in the media to play it safe!
1
Did anybody ever count how many innocents in Libya were killed by British air strikes in the past few years? How many Muslim innocents were killed by US bombs? I bet we can reduce a great deal of terrorism on our nations' people if we stop our military activities in the Middle East and Africa.
7
might have been better if we never came down from the trees. is this the human stain? are all the terrible accusations one group makes about another simultaneously true?
think about this for Memorial Day.
think about this for Memorial Day.
1
The "Martians" of the Manhattan Project (the spooky smart ones) were almost universally skeptical of the longevity of advanced technological civilizations.
1
your analysis is right but conclusion is wrong because while the UK and USA Are actual countries that could go to war... who would the opponent be? not a country, really, not an army, really... more like a mafia parading as a religious order. rhat is why it is hard to fight terrorists: they are more criminals than they are nations in any conventional sense. and in the Middle East, eve. tbe nations are loose groups of ancient tribes.
1
ISIS members are cowards!? Then the Minutemen in our own revolutionary war were cowards. The real cowards are those who perpetuate the idea that killing a few people is more terrible than the things we do to ourselves that we have actual control of. Such as smoking. Or polluting our world. Sure it's easy to snivel about the scourge of terrorism, it takes courage to actually do something about the less spectacular things that actually matter. Im no lover of terrorism, but if we must be terrorized, lets be rational about it.
2
Now this is rich: the 'baby-killers' from the Middle East are derided for using nail-bombs--which we all know is morally and ethically inferior to killing babies with drones and cruise misfiled.
I'm not defending baby-killers of any sort but we kill babies as dead as they do.
I'm not defending baby-killers of any sort but we kill babies as dead as they do.
10
If you meant to attack a woman's right to abortion, Harris, you failed -- not least because fetuses ARE NOT BABIES.
The bad guys start wars. The good guys defend against the bad guys. Sometimes that requires collateral damage in the form of "innocent" civilians on the bad guys' turf. Let there be no mistake: These Islamic extremist jihadis are the bad guys. Just as were the leadership of the Japanese, German and Italian people in WWII, and those who attempted to carry out their plans and directives. Do NOT, for a moment, try to blur the lines of distinction between the good guys, and the bad guys. Yes, some "innocent" muslims (if there are any), have been killed in the wars against Islamic jihad. Their blood is NOT on the hands of the good guys, but on the hands of the (islamic) bad guys who started the war. COMPLETELY different than the hands of the bad guys who kill true innocents, such as the jihadi piece of excrement who committed murder on behalf of evil in Manchester. HIS hands are covered in the blood, as are those of all who trained him, and indoctrinated him in the evil ways of mohammed. Hirohito's hands still wear the blood of every American who died in Pearl Harbor, and in the Pacific during WWII. His hands ALSO are drenched in the blood of any innocent Japanese killed by the Atomic bombs dropped by the USA. STOP trying to blame the Good Guys for anything bad that happens while they are RESPONDING to aggression from the BAD guys. It is NOT the same.
6
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How about if there are any between say 0 and 5 years old, which there are....? Do you still feel the need for inverted commas around innocent?
And you don't get to play Pontius Pilate over this. The blood is on your hands if you conduct yourself carelessly, recklessly, maliciously ..... All the perfumes of Arabia etc.
How about if there are any between say 0 and 5 years old, which there are....? Do you still feel the need for inverted commas around innocent?
And you don't get to play Pontius Pilate over this. The blood is on your hands if you conduct yourself carelessly, recklessly, maliciously ..... All the perfumes of Arabia etc.
I could not disagree with you more except the Japanese were an Empire which needed to be destroyed. Truman ordered the bomb dropped on 2 cities to terrorize the Japanese and scare the Russians. Terrorism and killing are evil, but you seem to believe the old good vs. evil. The US has killed hundreds of thousands in Iraq alone. Millions since wwII. South America, South Asia, you name it: The US Empire, Inc.'s propaganda has persuaded you that killing innocents is alright and the "BAD guys" have no legitimate grievances. Not a bit of understanding of others because in your mind we are "exceptional" and they are muslim or bad.
Example: 1953 Iran. Overthrew the elected leader and put in the Shah. He tortured and then killed anyone who stood in his way. Until 1979 when they got rid of the Shah finally and took the US Embassy personnel hostage. Not a nice thing to do, but what would you do against a Country (Empire) that caused you so much death and pain. By the way, the only reason they held on to them so long is that Reagan reached a deal for jet fighter parts,etc. in return for keeping the hostages in the news every day. Treason they learned from Nixon and his deal with Hanoi to keep the war going during his election against Johnson. Iran got their equipment remember? Iran-Contra.
Remember, patriotism is good, but blindness to reality is notl
Example: 1953 Iran. Overthrew the elected leader and put in the Shah. He tortured and then killed anyone who stood in his way. Until 1979 when they got rid of the Shah finally and took the US Embassy personnel hostage. Not a nice thing to do, but what would you do against a Country (Empire) that caused you so much death and pain. By the way, the only reason they held on to them so long is that Reagan reached a deal for jet fighter parts,etc. in return for keeping the hostages in the news every day. Treason they learned from Nixon and his deal with Hanoi to keep the war going during his election against Johnson. Iran got their equipment remember? Iran-Contra.
Remember, patriotism is good, but blindness to reality is notl
The current scourge of ISIS won't stop unless good people of Muslim faith take on and defeat these imposters themselves. I'm tired of hearing about the vast majority of Muslims who don't support ISIS. Numbers are meaningless in this battle - these same Muslims must take on ISIS and defeat them or the battle will continue. And don't assume that "good" will ultimately prevail. If Muslim's don't stand up for themselves and reclaim their faith and America loses it's will for this fight - and their are many who favor this view - then ISIS and their supporters will grow stronger and could actually win. "The strong do what they will and the weak suffer what they must." Unfortunately, Thucydides' view is as true today as it was in 430 BS.
16
In Europe, Muslims will win through the womb alone in another couple of generations.
1
So what does Mr. Egan want here? Liberty or security? Trump's dealings with the world's strongmen could ultimately end up making the world a safer place. We've, as a country, made that trade-off so many times before.
We supported liberty during the Arab Spring and got Libya and Syria as results. Hideouts and refuges for terrorists and bombers instead of functional, if autocratic, rule.
I'm not a fan of Trump's domestic policies in most cases but Trump seeing the true and practical demands of American foreign policy is refreshing.
We supported liberty during the Arab Spring and got Libya and Syria as results. Hideouts and refuges for terrorists and bombers instead of functional, if autocratic, rule.
I'm not a fan of Trump's domestic policies in most cases but Trump seeing the true and practical demands of American foreign policy is refreshing.
7
"Trump's dealings with the world's strongmen could ultimately end up making the world a safer place. We've, as a country, made that trade-off so many times before."
Yes, we did make that trade off before, and those actions led to the destabilization of the Middle East -- from the fall of the Shah, the acts 9-11, and up through the situation we find ourselves in now.
Yes, we did make that trade off before, and those actions led to the destabilization of the Middle East -- from the fall of the Shah, the acts 9-11, and up through the situation we find ourselves in now.
3
Who is 'we'?
How many times have you and yours joined the 0.75% of Americans who have volunteered to wear the military uniform of any American armed force since 9/11/01?
After you and Cruz and Cornyn , Don, Jr., Ivanka, Eric, Tiffany and the whole House of Trump.
Trump is no Lincoln nor Wilson nor Roosevelt nor Truman nor Eisenhower nor Kennedy nor Johnson nor Reagan nor Bush nor Clinton nor Bush nor Obama.
Trump is the dumbest most inexperienced incompetent immature insecure oldest President we have ever had. That is frightening.
Quanah Parker, Barbara Jordan and Molly Ivins were the last great Texans.
How many times have you and yours joined the 0.75% of Americans who have volunteered to wear the military uniform of any American armed force since 9/11/01?
After you and Cruz and Cornyn , Don, Jr., Ivanka, Eric, Tiffany and the whole House of Trump.
Trump is no Lincoln nor Wilson nor Roosevelt nor Truman nor Eisenhower nor Kennedy nor Johnson nor Reagan nor Bush nor Clinton nor Bush nor Obama.
Trump is the dumbest most inexperienced incompetent immature insecure oldest President we have ever had. That is frightening.
Quanah Parker, Barbara Jordan and Molly Ivins were the last great Texans.
2
Trump manages to embarrass us continuously. In Israel, for example, he shocked Netanyahu by naming Israel as the author of the classified information he bragged about to the Russians in the Oval Office. Natanyahu's face was transparent and a bubble could have been put over his head saying something like - OMG - this guy is unbelievably dumb ! Later on in his trip he publicly divulged the location of American nuclear submarines, also classified information. Those two outrageous blunders undermine out image in the eyes of either friend of every foreign nation, either friend of foe. Trump shoved someone out of the way so he could be in front of the group for a photo. He's a colossally stupid bore - and a waste of all the money that was spent educating him.
1
Cowards who kill little girls in the name of religion, and bullies who strip women of the right to control their own bodies in government sponsored religious pronouncements. When do women rise up to say, " Enough!," so we can finally be at peace?
38
Civilized nations like the US and Israel use drones and air strikes.
11
Now the killer is called a psychopath. Perhaps. But I am believing more and more that is far easier to brainwash than we might believe. Lost people slip into a fog of believing that includes the acting - step by step - read and read, view videos over and over, talk and talk, take instruction, go through the motions, strap on the device, go to the location - and - do it. Perhaps it is no more than that. I'm not sure all such people have to be psychopaths.
41
Agreed. It's easy to call these murderers names, like "coward" and "psychopath". Maybe they are, but what they definitely seem to be is vengeful and desperate.
Note that I am NOT saying that we should bring murderers like this into a room and quietly discuss their beliefs and feelings. If someone is trying to kill you, the rational response it to incapacitate them as quickly as is possible, and, if unavoidable kill them.
What I can't see labeling this type of killer as is a "terrorist". To me, a terrorist is someone that uses violence to advance a political agenda. This type of attack, from one individual loosely attached to a group without any home or base of operations, without even a solid political grounding, feels like revenge more than terrorism. It's lashing out to hurt as many on the side of the enemy as they can, without regard to anything else. This makes this more like the "total war" bombing campaigns of WWII than the old-style terrorism of hijacking an airplane to cause the release of particular prisoners. Except this time the bombs come one at a time, slowly, individually delivered.
If there was an easy answer here, the problem would be long gone. But I believe it is as big a mistake to call these people "psychopath" as it is to call them "terrorist". Both labels may be missing the point.
Note that I am NOT saying that we should bring murderers like this into a room and quietly discuss their beliefs and feelings. If someone is trying to kill you, the rational response it to incapacitate them as quickly as is possible, and, if unavoidable kill them.
What I can't see labeling this type of killer as is a "terrorist". To me, a terrorist is someone that uses violence to advance a political agenda. This type of attack, from one individual loosely attached to a group without any home or base of operations, without even a solid political grounding, feels like revenge more than terrorism. It's lashing out to hurt as many on the side of the enemy as they can, without regard to anything else. This makes this more like the "total war" bombing campaigns of WWII than the old-style terrorism of hijacking an airplane to cause the release of particular prisoners. Except this time the bombs come one at a time, slowly, individually delivered.
If there was an easy answer here, the problem would be long gone. But I believe it is as big a mistake to call these people "psychopath" as it is to call them "terrorist". Both labels may be missing the point.
We have not changed physiologically and psychologically from our tribal origins and our three states of morality reflect that. Within our tribe or community we tend to be very unselfish and self-sacrificing, willing to help others or dive on the hand grenade to save our friends. Surrounded by hostile tribes that want to murder every last man of us, steal our women and enslave our children, like Joshua going into the Land of Canaan, we are prepared to kill our enemies without mercy in times of war. A third morality exists among those who seek positions of leadership in the tribe, guileful politicians who deceive and betray in order to gain power; once power is won they manipulate the tribe, by lies, religion and patriotism, racism, xenophobia, in order to keep them under their power and to prepare them to fight their enemies. The war cry usually involves being on God's side against God's enemies, who are generally depicted as godless members of a degenerate race. This third Machiavellian morality is also employed in negotiating with leaders of other tribes, what we now call "Foreign Relations." And so, throughout History, we members of the tribe go along performing acts of kindness for each other, but from time to time we are inflamed with passion to go on Crusades against infidels, make the world safe for Democracy, keep the dominoes from falling in Vietnam, stop Saddam from using his weapons of mass destruction.
4
Tim Egan's essay is sobering. It reminds us that while terrorists are no doubt murderous criminals, the real barbarians are the Commanders-in-Chief who would turn terrorism into war.
2
Media reports that Abedi resented the lack of compassion for a Muslim Brit who was killed. If unstable people like that are really teetering on the brink, then the threats and insults of Donald Trump against Muslims are unhelpful.
Add to the disrespect the increased violence and terrorism by nationalist and Christian groups and the unstable people may lose control.
If Donald really wanted to help, he wouldn't have run for president.
Add to the disrespect the increased violence and terrorism by nationalist and Christian groups and the unstable people may lose control.
If Donald really wanted to help, he wouldn't have run for president.
If history teaches us anything it reminds us how easy it is to kill one another. As times changes and villains get re-defined the means of the killings become more sophisticated and personal. There is no statistic to be proud of. There is only a way of justifying perpetuating it.
When I was younger I used to wonder if we carried memories of dying within us from a previous life and if it were such a beautiful experience, that would explain our continued march toward it.
I have no answers but it seems no memory or monuments prevent it. Now in the age of Trump we seek to focus more on military might than insight. We cannot look to him for leadership. He has nothing to offer but perceptions formed in the 50's and 60's, not from experience but from watching TV and movies.
Meanwhile, the cowards lurk in the shadows with their bombs and target children while the blame game persists. Killing everyone may provide an answer but what happens then?
When I was younger I used to wonder if we carried memories of dying within us from a previous life and if it were such a beautiful experience, that would explain our continued march toward it.
I have no answers but it seems no memory or monuments prevent it. Now in the age of Trump we seek to focus more on military might than insight. We cannot look to him for leadership. He has nothing to offer but perceptions formed in the 50's and 60's, not from experience but from watching TV and movies.
Meanwhile, the cowards lurk in the shadows with their bombs and target children while the blame game persists. Killing everyone may provide an answer but what happens then?
5
I would hardly call the heir to the Hapsburg throne, Archduke Franz Ferdinand, an "obscure Balkan figure."
11
I thank you for your words of wisdom, for supporting a friend. I oppose every Trump supporter, bear disasters every day, pay a price for every hateful and hurtful thing he says. I am working on the survival part, having doubts about an optimist outcome of the liberty part.
1
The Islamic state's simplistic recruiting propaganda appeals to alienated zealots by showing photos of Muslim children slaughtered by the West's bombs, drones, and weaponry supplied to the various factions fighting their beleaguered "Caliphate." "Why should Europe and America be allowed to kill our children and inflict unbearable hardships on our people while keeping their own safe to attend decadent concerts and live in affluent comfort?" they argue.
As we learned from the popular resonance of the drowned refugee boy on a Mediterranean beach, vivid photos grab our attention in ways few written narratives can. Photos of dead and maimed Muslim children have moved many to outrage--a few to the point they're willing to strap on a bomb and sacrifice their own lives. They may hate our democratic values, but they also hate our callous indifference to the suffering of their co-religionists.
Their terrorist bombings are reprehensible, as is their callous indifference to the massive suffering perpetrated by their efforts to establish and preserve their ill-fated "Caliphate."
Yet, we Americans, with our ill-advised war on Iraq, must own some responsibility for creating the instability that made IS possible. Instead we and the Europeans wring our hands at the seemingly intractable crisis we helped make. The heinous mass murder in Manchester and other terrorist incidents have provoked justifiable outrage. But they must also serve as a wake up call to badly failed policies.
As we learned from the popular resonance of the drowned refugee boy on a Mediterranean beach, vivid photos grab our attention in ways few written narratives can. Photos of dead and maimed Muslim children have moved many to outrage--a few to the point they're willing to strap on a bomb and sacrifice their own lives. They may hate our democratic values, but they also hate our callous indifference to the suffering of their co-religionists.
Their terrorist bombings are reprehensible, as is their callous indifference to the massive suffering perpetrated by their efforts to establish and preserve their ill-fated "Caliphate."
Yet, we Americans, with our ill-advised war on Iraq, must own some responsibility for creating the instability that made IS possible. Instead we and the Europeans wring our hands at the seemingly intractable crisis we helped make. The heinous mass murder in Manchester and other terrorist incidents have provoked justifiable outrage. But they must also serve as a wake up call to badly failed policies.
12
No, we in the West didn't "help make this crisis" and no, the bombing was not in response to something the West did. The bomber believed that if he died while killing infidels he would be a martyr for Islam and instantly enter paradise. His actions were based on a jihadist reading of Islam. Sure the U.S. has done some bad things, but there's a world of moral difference between mistakenly killing children during a drone strike and deliberately trying to kill as many children as possible, as the Manchester bomber did.
3
What happened in Manchester happens daily in the Middle East, much of it started with US interference.
The US has a mighty military yet the results are the same. When we go in a kill innocent people, why it not called terrorism too?
The US has a mighty military yet the results are the same. When we go in a kill innocent people, why it not called terrorism too?
9
The different factions of Islam have been at each other's throats for a millennia.
They have murderous tendencies as well. It's not all about us alone. They own it just as much as we do. And does fatwa and honor killing ring any bells?
They have murderous tendencies as well. It's not all about us alone. They own it just as much as we do. And does fatwa and honor killing ring any bells?
Actually, what happened in Manchester is explainable. Namely: the very very rich use religious fairy tales, race, gender, orientation, favorite baseball team, chunky or smooth - anything they can get their hands on - to set the 99.9% against each other while they sneak out the back door with all the money.
The rest of is are stupid/gullible/fearful enough to go along with this, some to the point where they will commit horrific and insane acts of violence.
The rest of is are stupid/gullible/fearful enough to go along with this, some to the point where they will commit horrific and insane acts of violence.
There might not be a great war anymore, but there seems to be a war on everything else.
There is a war on drugs, terror, poverty, crime, fat, ( pick any ''ism'' ) and so on and so forth, etc ...
They all might not be right in front of our face with a glaring red atrocity to point fingers at, but they consume resources, people and the like just as much. if not more. They are in the shadows and may move more slowly along, but are deadly none the same.
We can spend oodles of money on counter this and that, and have the perception of being safe. We might actually catch physical culprits now and then, but the ideas will remain.
We as a people ( the entire globe ) are divided because powers that be ( religious, racist and monied ) want it that way.
As soon as we cut through all that and extend understand, compassion and help to everyone and anyone, regardless of circumstance, the sooner we will put these markers of history in the rear view mirror, instead of constantly repeating them.
Just a thought.
There is a war on drugs, terror, poverty, crime, fat, ( pick any ''ism'' ) and so on and so forth, etc ...
They all might not be right in front of our face with a glaring red atrocity to point fingers at, but they consume resources, people and the like just as much. if not more. They are in the shadows and may move more slowly along, but are deadly none the same.
We can spend oodles of money on counter this and that, and have the perception of being safe. We might actually catch physical culprits now and then, but the ideas will remain.
We as a people ( the entire globe ) are divided because powers that be ( religious, racist and monied ) want it that way.
As soon as we cut through all that and extend understand, compassion and help to everyone and anyone, regardless of circumstance, the sooner we will put these markers of history in the rear view mirror, instead of constantly repeating them.
Just a thought.
6
This is the way it works. ISIS randomly blows up a few innocent people. We react with justifiable. anger and confusion. we look to our leaders to help solve this. But who have we elected. May,Trump? They are only likely to appeal to our worst instincts, to sew fearfulness and hatred, and find really stupid solutions like "travel bans." This confirms the ISIS narrative of the evil infidel. There is little reason to believe this does not escalate into war, the solution all unpopular leaders choose to bolster their sagging approval. GB and the USA have elected two horrible people who will bring the death of optimism just like WW I did.
4
I would love to see a significant number of US voters committed to following Jesus change the behavior of our nation such that we would reduce the conditions in the world that lead to so much of the strife. I do not mean "Christians" since too few of them actually follow Jesus. When you are out to "save" the world, it is very difficult to love it as Jesus teaches.
1
Well one of these Christians told me in 2002, that "It was in the bible that the U.S.A should take over Iraq", so where do you go from there?
From tribalism, to feudalism, to monarchy, to capitalism, to revolution and democracy, to oligarchy to militarism to back it up, to gangsterism, to fascism, to more unrest leading to terrorism and the police state; all based on greed and the belief that wealth comes from the appointment by God that those with money also have the God given right to rule, and to that end their belief is justified any means convenient, no matter how evil.
With every turn on the page of human history, as we move from tribalism, racism, militarism, democracy, the welfare state to resentment and imagined victimhood, to anarchy leading to more to our present gangsterism and at every turn of the page the price we pay is destruction and the wholesale murder of children and their parents
With out a doubt history has had its ups and downs when it comes to John Q. Citizen and his family. Ask the offspring of millions of former slaves. There have been historial movers like Abe Lincoln, Teddy and Franklin Roosevelt, Lindon Johnson and Barak Obama, to name a very few. For the historical downs we can point to plantation owners who enslaved millions, and the party which now serves the interest of such people and someone like Donald Trump and clearly that person who would condemn us to poverty and powerlessness with the consent of his accessories in Congress. We must vote these guys out. That will change their plans before it is too late and we are having the White House staffed by Russians,
With every turn on the page of human history, as we move from tribalism, racism, militarism, democracy, the welfare state to resentment and imagined victimhood, to anarchy leading to more to our present gangsterism and at every turn of the page the price we pay is destruction and the wholesale murder of children and their parents
With out a doubt history has had its ups and downs when it comes to John Q. Citizen and his family. Ask the offspring of millions of former slaves. There have been historial movers like Abe Lincoln, Teddy and Franklin Roosevelt, Lindon Johnson and Barak Obama, to name a very few. For the historical downs we can point to plantation owners who enslaved millions, and the party which now serves the interest of such people and someone like Donald Trump and clearly that person who would condemn us to poverty and powerlessness with the consent of his accessories in Congress. We must vote these guys out. That will change their plans before it is too late and we are having the White House staffed by Russians,
4
It's not country vs country, nor communism vs capitalism, it's military-industrial complex vs military-industrial complex, religion vs religion, autocrat (fascist) vs autocrat (fascist) in every country on earth. The good innocent people of each country have little protection from these overwhelming forces destroying their peace and lives.
7
Excellent piece but allow me to pull the camera back just a bit further: This isn't just about a new type of warfare; it's about the increasing acceptance in many societies of the virtues of brutality, a brutality that provides a sense of moral vengeance – as long as it is inflicted on the "other."
Let's look at an example uncomfortably closer to home: While I won't compare the recent GOP House passage of the execrable AHCA to a terrorist act, let's be clear: Were this Trumpcare to become law, the human carnage would be far greater, affecting an exponentially larger group of people than any terrorist act in history. Of course, it won't be as graphic, which is to say, it won't make for dramatic television. But the damage is real and the root cause is not that dissimilar to that of the extremist blowing himself up: It's a bunch of ideologues who have no problem inflicting brutality on the "other" – in this case, the poor, the disabled, the "deserving." Our horror and fascination with these monsters has at least a little to do with our desire to look away from our own complicity with the inhumanity in our own backyard.
The "culture of life"? I don't think so.
Let's look at an example uncomfortably closer to home: While I won't compare the recent GOP House passage of the execrable AHCA to a terrorist act, let's be clear: Were this Trumpcare to become law, the human carnage would be far greater, affecting an exponentially larger group of people than any terrorist act in history. Of course, it won't be as graphic, which is to say, it won't make for dramatic television. But the damage is real and the root cause is not that dissimilar to that of the extremist blowing himself up: It's a bunch of ideologues who have no problem inflicting brutality on the "other" – in this case, the poor, the disabled, the "deserving." Our horror and fascination with these monsters has at least a little to do with our desire to look away from our own complicity with the inhumanity in our own backyard.
The "culture of life"? I don't think so.
11
Following World War Two when the "game of War "was changed for all time to come. The aircraft used bomb from high altitudes starting in 1941 with the Nazis on England & the follow up the Brits @ night & the Americans by day of major cities made the term "Civilian" obsolete. Add the mass bombing of most of Japan's cities plus the use of the two big bangs that stop WWII. We as humans have harden our reaction ever since and the killing of innocents is still decried, but if we must have war as a final solution and you and yours are in the wrong place at the wrong time then you are gone. The answer to dead civilians is to end all war& learn to reason out problems with skill and compassion.
1
Ah, yes. Quoting Mr. Mark Knopfler:
"The same old fears,
the same old crimes.
We haven't changed,
since ancient times."
"The same old fears,
the same old crimes.
We haven't changed,
since ancient times."
2
We are seeing a very ominous pattern playing out in almost all of these European countries as well as in the US as well. The bombers, the drivers of trucks into crowds, the Charlie Hebdo assassins, they are all second generation descendants of immigrants that came to the west for better lives. The first generation worked hard, succeeded or failed on their own toil and sweat, and generally tried to pass on those values to their young. But between the transmission of those values and the ethnic variations between the old and new culture something has gone horribly wrong. Instead of assimilation they embrace a culture toward nihilism; instead of gravitating toward modern values a rejection of those values and the budding fantasy that the world of 1000 years ago was far better than their lives today. Whatever Europe is doing now, it is not working. A third generation is also on its way.
4
Macro wars (WW I, WW II) stun us when we consider the horribly astronomical numbers, micro wars (terrorist attacks) stun us just as much because the horrible individual impacts are so glaring...and yet this baffling capacity for violence does not abate.
1
I'm no fan of Iran, but Trump did Europe a huge disservice by so strongly allying America to Saudi Arabia, Iran's primary enemy in the region. The Saudi kingdom is the source of Wahhabist Islam and most of the funding for groups like ISIS and Al-Qaeda. None of the European and American attacks have been conducted by Shiites. Zero. And to bring order and stability back to Iraq, America has been forced to promote Shiites. Given this, where is all the hostility toward Iran coming from? I hope its not Israel (who after all recognize Iran as a much greater military threat than the Saudi's).
And Saudi money is radicalizing Muslims throughout Europe. Wahhabist charities in Europe tie their aid to disseminating a version of Islam that is at the root of Al-Qaeda's and ISIS's horribly intolerant worldviews. Where, in extreme, even the murdering of children is somehow deemed acceptable. Trump's visit and aid to Saudi Arabia is designed to antagonize Europe, already suffering from Saudi inspired and funded Wahhabist extremism. And also to antagonize Iran. Iran may be a bad actor in the Middle East, but Shiite's don't blow up Americans and Europeans, and that is the bottom line.
And Saudi money is radicalizing Muslims throughout Europe. Wahhabist charities in Europe tie their aid to disseminating a version of Islam that is at the root of Al-Qaeda's and ISIS's horribly intolerant worldviews. Where, in extreme, even the murdering of children is somehow deemed acceptable. Trump's visit and aid to Saudi Arabia is designed to antagonize Europe, already suffering from Saudi inspired and funded Wahhabist extremism. And also to antagonize Iran. Iran may be a bad actor in the Middle East, but Shiite's don't blow up Americans and Europeans, and that is the bottom line.
2
As always, a great piece of writing from Timothy Egan. Although I would quibble with the idea that the Soviets under Stalin were followers of Marx.
I see a war between cults going on. In the Middle East the cult of Wassabism, promoted by the Saudi royal family, in the West the cult of t rump and greed promoted by the Republican party (which has become a cult of itself).
One side fights the typical war of terrorists by finding its targets in non war zones and killing randomly.
The other side fights the typical war against terrorists by bombing their towns and families.
Both sides need the rest of us to be so consumed with fear of the other side we will ignore the evil of our own.
In America we are condemned to repeat this history because we won't remember our history. In fact, we won't even remember last nights news.
I see a war between cults going on. In the Middle East the cult of Wassabism, promoted by the Saudi royal family, in the West the cult of t rump and greed promoted by the Republican party (which has become a cult of itself).
One side fights the typical war of terrorists by finding its targets in non war zones and killing randomly.
The other side fights the typical war against terrorists by bombing their towns and families.
Both sides need the rest of us to be so consumed with fear of the other side we will ignore the evil of our own.
In America we are condemned to repeat this history because we won't remember our history. In fact, we won't even remember last nights news.
12
The wars of the 20th century were defined by nations, geography, and formal alliances. This paradigm ultimately culminated in the Cold War: The U.S. vs. the U.S.S.R., with much of the rest of the world lining up on one side or the other.
The conflicts of the 21st century appear to be lining up along a different paradigm: order vs. chaos. Civil society vs. Anarchy. The cowardly acts of inidividuals like Abedi advance the cause of chaos. Although groups like ISIS control some land, it can also be said that ISIS is a "state of mind". They can take credit for the terrorist acts of any lost and misanthropic "lone wolf" (who happens to be Muslim) anywhere in the world, regardless of whether or not ISIS actually had a role. These acts further their aim of chaos and anarchy.
These lone wolf acts of terrorism by misanthropic individuals are not limited to Muslims. In the U.S., we can also point to Dylann Roof and Timothy McVey, and even the school shooters.
Some people want to force the conflicts of the 21st century into a 20th century framework of a "Clash of Civilizations" (much like the Cold War) - usually stated as between the West and Islam. Osama bin Ladin wrote of this. Steve Bannon's views are remarkably similar. Both men advocated chaos and destruction of the existing world order.
We must resist this false narrative. The real conflict is between civil society and anarchy.
The conflicts of the 21st century appear to be lining up along a different paradigm: order vs. chaos. Civil society vs. Anarchy. The cowardly acts of inidividuals like Abedi advance the cause of chaos. Although groups like ISIS control some land, it can also be said that ISIS is a "state of mind". They can take credit for the terrorist acts of any lost and misanthropic "lone wolf" (who happens to be Muslim) anywhere in the world, regardless of whether or not ISIS actually had a role. These acts further their aim of chaos and anarchy.
These lone wolf acts of terrorism by misanthropic individuals are not limited to Muslims. In the U.S., we can also point to Dylann Roof and Timothy McVey, and even the school shooters.
Some people want to force the conflicts of the 21st century into a 20th century framework of a "Clash of Civilizations" (much like the Cold War) - usually stated as between the West and Islam. Osama bin Ladin wrote of this. Steve Bannon's views are remarkably similar. Both men advocated chaos and destruction of the existing world order.
We must resist this false narrative. The real conflict is between civil society and anarchy.
8
Mr. Egan:
Re: "World War I, after all, started with the lone assassination of an obscure Balkan figure."
A niggling question about whom you are identifying as the "obscure Balkan figure": the victim, Archduke Franz Ferdinand, heir presumptive to the throne of the powerful Austro-Hungarian Empire? or the assassin, Gavrilo Princip, a young Bosnian Serb?
Might this not be clearer? "World War I, after all, started with the assassination of an Archduke by an obscure Balkan figure."
(Because the Archduke's wife also died in the assassination, leaving their three young children orphaned, "lone" is omitted in the above revision.)
Re: "World War I, after all, started with the lone assassination of an obscure Balkan figure."
A niggling question about whom you are identifying as the "obscure Balkan figure": the victim, Archduke Franz Ferdinand, heir presumptive to the throne of the powerful Austro-Hungarian Empire? or the assassin, Gavrilo Princip, a young Bosnian Serb?
Might this not be clearer? "World War I, after all, started with the assassination of an Archduke by an obscure Balkan figure."
(Because the Archduke's wife also died in the assassination, leaving their three young children orphaned, "lone" is omitted in the above revision.)
3
Meanwhile, as per todays NYT article, women who join the US army should carry the same heavy weight of garbage to prove that they are equally strong as men when it comes to killing other men/women. So from all angles, be it Middle Easterns fighting Christians, or the other way around (who is "on first"), or men or women in the same army pulling a fast one on each other, all are equally insane and all dream every single night what the best ways is to kill or destroy someone else. Nothing achieved these past 8 billion years.
1
It looks like you can rationalize anything Mr. Egan. What's 22 dead vs. the carnage of 100 years ago, you ask. Churchill's insight was that he knew when to fight back, instead of appease as you would do. Sickening.
1
Churchill had a clearer objective, a nation state, which had the wherewithal and intention to obliterate his country. Churchill had no choice. We are fighting a form of warfare called terrorism with no state, army or airpower behind it. Just alienated individuals who know that the purpose of terrorism is to cause terror. By comparing two radically different threats, you are giving the terrorists more power than they deserve. England endured terrorism under the IRA as well, just as horrific as this last episode. I fear the English are far tougher than we are.
Egan said that the bomber is a psychopath, not a soldier, that ISIS calling him a soldier was a lie. Let's remember that soldiers throughout history have been conditioned to kill men. women, and (with horror as I write) children, by making their victims less than human. And making themselves the hand of destiny, fate, or god. My Lai, Srebrenica, Babi Yar, and these are only a few names within our last century. This kind of murder is all too common in war. War makes monsters of men. Religion is just the excuse that they lay over their hatred and madness. And our own drones have hardly been emissaries of mercy either.
39
Thanks for the World War I reference. I especially recommend A World Undone, by G.J. Meyer. It teaches us that humans have a long way to go. I'm old enough to remember seeing dozens of one legged veterans of that war in Vienna in 1971. When Europe then followed up with World War II, most of the people on that continent wised up. They are no longer interested in war, and don't get teary eyed when some opportunistic leader like Trump waves the flag while banging the war drums.
Americans really need to grow up, and not just in treating violence with threats to up the ante. There are several steps available:
1. Impeach the President. This effort will fail, due to fascist control of the Supreme Court, but a record of resistance must be established.
2. Convene a meeting of movie production companies, ask them to back off on the heroic bombing and bayonet stabbing, and make movies like King of Hearts, which showed war to be the fool's errand it's always been.
3. Discredit our fossil fuel companies, who have persuaded Congress that burning coal and gas is a great idea, especially when their subsidies are included.
4. Boycott key advertisers of bad TV, especially the ones we see on Fox and the other major networks.
Teach our children to value and love all creatures, including humans. Mock those who don't, with humor and wisdom, instead of treating them as military or ideological enemies.
Yeah, good luck, know. But we gotta try....
Americans really need to grow up, and not just in treating violence with threats to up the ante. There are several steps available:
1. Impeach the President. This effort will fail, due to fascist control of the Supreme Court, but a record of resistance must be established.
2. Convene a meeting of movie production companies, ask them to back off on the heroic bombing and bayonet stabbing, and make movies like King of Hearts, which showed war to be the fool's errand it's always been.
3. Discredit our fossil fuel companies, who have persuaded Congress that burning coal and gas is a great idea, especially when their subsidies are included.
4. Boycott key advertisers of bad TV, especially the ones we see on Fox and the other major networks.
Teach our children to value and love all creatures, including humans. Mock those who don't, with humor and wisdom, instead of treating them as military or ideological enemies.
Yeah, good luck, know. But we gotta try....
79
@Mike Roddy. What you write makes sense to me. Only take issue with the reason impeachment will fail. You say it is because of the fascist control of the Supreme Court, which is true thank to a stolen seat. Impeachment will fail because of the fascist control of the House and the Senate which will not convict. That will change only when these fascists recognize that Trump is a political liability to the extent that the polls show that they are married to Trump for the midterms and shall lose control of one or both houses.
2
When it comes to killing efficently nobody beats the USA,a nighttime bombing raid on Tokyo killed 100,000s and do not forget HIroshima and Nagaski.AMERICA NUMBER ONE WHEN IT COMES TO KILLING
6
What about Iraq?
Not sure what the Trump diss is doing at the end of this article, it seems a non sequitor. Trump's a chump, but he didn't cause of Manchester bombing.
One thing Brit's didn't do during WWII is import Nazis to make it harder to defend their country. But countries throughout the EU are doing that today: bringing in hundreds of thousands of muslim immigrants annually.
A few of these folks, or their children, wind up as terrorists. And their sheer numbers slows down muslim assimilation.
Rather than a few hundred thousand muslims living essentially like their French English or German neighbors, these countries have millions of muslims, often living in segregated communities, hanging on to backward ideas and failing to develop a sense of common life with their new neighbors.
Sheer numbers make a difference. But that rarely gets discussed.
One thing Brit's didn't do during WWII is import Nazis to make it harder to defend their country. But countries throughout the EU are doing that today: bringing in hundreds of thousands of muslim immigrants annually.
A few of these folks, or their children, wind up as terrorists. And their sheer numbers slows down muslim assimilation.
Rather than a few hundred thousand muslims living essentially like their French English or German neighbors, these countries have millions of muslims, often living in segregated communities, hanging on to backward ideas and failing to develop a sense of common life with their new neighbors.
Sheer numbers make a difference. But that rarely gets discussed.
30
What is your suggestion regarding the Muslim immigrants who really should, more accurately, be called refugees, not immigrants?
Immigrants are most frequently people who leave their country of origin to settle in another one that offers them better economic opportunities - they hope for a chance to live in more comfortable circumstances.
Refugees are people who leave their country of orign because they are desperate to survive when they are surrounded by armed conflict or are being persecuted for their beliefs so that they have no reasonable choice but to flee to a safer country - they hope for a chance to remain alive, regardless of contraints they might face in a new homeland.
Would you deny such refugees safe harbor?
Immigrants are most frequently people who leave their country of origin to settle in another one that offers them better economic opportunities - they hope for a chance to live in more comfortable circumstances.
Refugees are people who leave their country of orign because they are desperate to survive when they are surrounded by armed conflict or are being persecuted for their beliefs so that they have no reasonable choice but to flee to a safer country - they hope for a chance to remain alive, regardless of contraints they might face in a new homeland.
Would you deny such refugees safe harbor?
We are good at some things, not so good at others.
We remain VERY good at killing each other.
We remain VERY good at killing each other.
31
Until the good accomplished by religion exceeds the carnage committed in its name, I will continue to abstain, thank you.
84
Somewhere in the first days after the bombing, I saw a sentence to the effect that ISIS, in its broadcasts, had been emphasizing its own civilian deaths, especially children who have died in attacks on ISIS. This isn't in any way to justify the Manchester attack, but to suggest that if we want to understand the mind of the attacker, we can think that it wasn't some meaningless psychotic outburst, or theological resentment, but something along the lines of: "They kill our children from the air with a feeling of impunity - I will kill their children on the ground, for revenge, for justice, to remind them of their vulnerability..."
This isn't to justify the attack at all - but to try to see what it meant to the attacker. The followers of ISIS surely see every air raid or artillery bombardment as a savage attack on what they see as their cities. That the deaths of civilians is unintentional would be of no comfort to them. Every attack they make in our cities, is in this context.
The trouble is, understanding this aspect of the thoughts of a bomber doesn't suggest any solution. ISIS is a terrible, violent and cruel movement, and we have to assist those who are resisting it. They are going to exploit every unwanted civilian death, but there may be no way to avoid this. However scrupulous we were, they might still send terror attackers, as long as they had some demands they felt were just.
This isn't to justify the attack at all - but to try to see what it meant to the attacker. The followers of ISIS surely see every air raid or artillery bombardment as a savage attack on what they see as their cities. That the deaths of civilians is unintentional would be of no comfort to them. Every attack they make in our cities, is in this context.
The trouble is, understanding this aspect of the thoughts of a bomber doesn't suggest any solution. ISIS is a terrible, violent and cruel movement, and we have to assist those who are resisting it. They are going to exploit every unwanted civilian death, but there may be no way to avoid this. However scrupulous we were, they might still send terror attackers, as long as they had some demands they felt were just.
17
Pay any price? Really?
The US won't even start a conversation about the Saudi export of extreme, violent Wahhabism.
Why? If the Saudi's balk, the US can act unilaterally.
Oh yeah, legislators and leaders are in the pocket of Big Oil.
Rex Tillerson would never risk offense to the men who line his pockets.
Perhaps it is time for the rest of the world to show leadership on this issue. Clearly, US leadership is too cowardly and greedy.
The US won't even start a conversation about the Saudi export of extreme, violent Wahhabism.
Why? If the Saudi's balk, the US can act unilaterally.
Oh yeah, legislators and leaders are in the pocket of Big Oil.
Rex Tillerson would never risk offense to the men who line his pockets.
Perhaps it is time for the rest of the world to show leadership on this issue. Clearly, US leadership is too cowardly and greedy.
61
Donald Trump was elected on a platform that celebrated fear. Fear of terrorism, fear of "the other," fear of loss of jobs, fear of "elites," and fear of Hillary Clinton's "globalism."
Much was fiction, none of the fears are addressed by Trump or Congre$$ional Republicans.
As heinous as this attack was, the casualty count will pale to the number who will die on American roads this long holiday weekend. Fear distorts all sense of proportion.
Much was fiction, none of the fears are addressed by Trump or Congre$$ional Republicans.
As heinous as this attack was, the casualty count will pale to the number who will die on American roads this long holiday weekend. Fear distorts all sense of proportion.
8
As heinous as this attack was, the casualty count will pale to the number who will die on American roads this long holiday weekend.
It's unbelievable that there are people, such as you, that are so totally ignorant that they cannot distinguish between an INTENTIONAL terrorist attack, and an ACCIDENT!
It's unbelievable that there are people, such as you, that are so totally ignorant that they cannot distinguish between an INTENTIONAL terrorist attack, and an ACCIDENT!
3
Please don't compare the murders of those in Manchester to car crashes. It's not the same, at all.
3
THE KILLING THIS TIME The Trickled Down Model works lethally for asymmetric warfare. Recruiters for Islamist terrorism are on the prowl for first generation European born males of a Muslim background who have run into walls on all fronts. They're neither Europeans nor Muslims culturally. Many come from families where there is a very repressive attitude toward sexuality. Single males under 30 are notably less stable than those who are married or involved in intimate relationships. They are angry, depressed, isolated and despairing. So Islamist terrorist recruiters seek them out, luring them with promises of external delights and heroism as martyrs. The young men are told that the material world and human life is meaningless, except as a means to martyrdom. When will Muslims rise up against to stop terrorism? To paraphrase the late Gold Meir, They'll stop when they love their sons more than they hate us. The roots of despair are what got Trump where he is now. Singularly the greatest victory for political terrorism in modern times.
5
Wars, terorism it's all the same really, one person or persons exerting power over another. For all of our years of evolution we are still flesh eating dinosaurs.
2
There was no mention of the attack on American soil on September 11, 2001 that took close to 3000 lives and that changed many others forever by al-Qaeda terrorists. We had never experienced anything like this before and it changed the fabric of our society. It was a very sad day but it brought about patriotism and people joining together to help others.
We must never allow these atrocities to happen again and President Trump is trying to keep our citizens safe by implementing a vetting process from certain countries that might pose a danger to our citizens. Once they are approved, they are very welcome to enter and experience the American Dream.
We must never allow these atrocities to happen again and President Trump is trying to keep our citizens safe by implementing a vetting process from certain countries that might pose a danger to our citizens. Once they are approved, they are very welcome to enter and experience the American Dream.
7
But of course, the countries whose citizens perpetrated 9/11 are not included among Trump's "certain countries." And our "patriotic" response to 9/11 was to invade a country that had nothing at all to do with 9/11, and its ultimate result was to create a new generation of people who understandably hate America.
3
The Manchester bombing is both tragic and senseless; we mourn the loss of innocent lives. Do we have the same compassion for the hundreds recently killed in Mosul by the US precision guided bombs, or do we foolishly believe these killings are part of a "just war?" The lessons of 1914 - 1918 still have not been learned.
2
I began my day with the risky business of scrolling through Twitter. You never know what sort of horrors you're going to uncover, what nasty comments, what depressing or scary headlines, but, instead, I came across a video clip of the people of Manchester singing "Don't Look Back in Anger" after their moment of silence.
This city was rocked by this act of cowardice by the terrorist, but they responded by jumping in to aid the victims and other concert-goers with free taxi rides and places to stay overnight. When the dust settled, rather than be overcome with a sense of vengeance, anger, and need for justice, they continued to choose love, kindness, and more love.
A great man once said, "an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind," the risk of the escalation of violence. Evil begets more evil and soon we'll find ourselves on the brink of nuclear war. To respond with love is to break the cycle rather than add to it.
Let's take a page from the lovely people of Manchester and fill our hearts with love and kindness. It's the only thing that can truly trump hate.
This city was rocked by this act of cowardice by the terrorist, but they responded by jumping in to aid the victims and other concert-goers with free taxi rides and places to stay overnight. When the dust settled, rather than be overcome with a sense of vengeance, anger, and need for justice, they continued to choose love, kindness, and more love.
A great man once said, "an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind," the risk of the escalation of violence. Evil begets more evil and soon we'll find ourselves on the brink of nuclear war. To respond with love is to break the cycle rather than add to it.
Let's take a page from the lovely people of Manchester and fill our hearts with love and kindness. It's the only thing that can truly trump hate.
25
"What happened in Manchester is unexplainable," writes the otherwise sharp Timothy Egan. Yes, well, but no more unexplainable than Allah, Jehova or the Holy Trinity, wouldn't you say? It is quite extraordinary -- and depressing -- how time after time, even our best commentators would rather leave horrifying massacress unexplained than dare suggest a connection between them and the sanctification of irrationality. How to put an end to the horror? Why don't we start by pushing back against the invasion of public space by organized religion(s)?
29
I do not believe that "organized religion" is the primary cause of wars any more than is "national security". Both of these are used to justify the world's greatest every military budget and the extraordinary continued funding of what President Eisenhower called the military/industrial complex. The obsession for money, power, and self-gratifying worship of adulating masses are the cause of the invasion of public space and war more often than not. Eisenhower, who had seen it all, stated it very clearly
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9743.htm
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9743.htm
1
"Innocent Abroad"? There is nothing innocent about Trump.....
2
I wish it was clearer what the main point of this column is.
That terrorists kill far fewer people than world wars? That WW One was terrible but so is modern day terrorism? If we're not killing for one reason, we're killing for another? Young people dying for no reason is bad?
We already know all those things.
That terrorists kill far fewer people than world wars? That WW One was terrible but so is modern day terrorism? If we're not killing for one reason, we're killing for another? Young people dying for no reason is bad?
We already know all those things.
9
In the first days of April 1969 I walked through woods from my parents small farm to that of cousins just to our east. I'd received orders for Vietnam and was making visits, this one to a cousin who was also a close friend.
Making my way up a small hill, past their barn, through some old cedar trees, into their homes back yard I found my uncle Harry Doonan bent over a honeybee hive, a cigarette hanging from his lips, holding a frame of comb and bees. He was wearing none of the protective clothes I would have. He looked up and saw me, put the frame back, put the lid of the hive back on, picked up some comb in a bowl, and greeted me with, "I hear you're going to war?"
Harry had been in WW I. He'd been shot, wounded by shrapnel, and survived a gas attack. He was an old man. "I don't expect you'll like it any more than I did," he said. "Don't believe any of the bullshit you're told. There's always a true story you'll never hear."
When I got home in 1970 I encountered him once sitting on some steps eating ice cream. He went into their house and got me a bowl, then asked me, "So, what did you think?"
Harry, my dad, my uncles, my parents' friends, me... we'd all had been to wars that were to change the world.
And still we're killing each other, always in a cause, always with justification, always without hope of there ever being an end to it.
Making my way up a small hill, past their barn, through some old cedar trees, into their homes back yard I found my uncle Harry Doonan bent over a honeybee hive, a cigarette hanging from his lips, holding a frame of comb and bees. He was wearing none of the protective clothes I would have. He looked up and saw me, put the frame back, put the lid of the hive back on, picked up some comb in a bowl, and greeted me with, "I hear you're going to war?"
Harry had been in WW I. He'd been shot, wounded by shrapnel, and survived a gas attack. He was an old man. "I don't expect you'll like it any more than I did," he said. "Don't believe any of the bullshit you're told. There's always a true story you'll never hear."
When I got home in 1970 I encountered him once sitting on some steps eating ice cream. He went into their house and got me a bowl, then asked me, "So, what did you think?"
Harry, my dad, my uncles, my parents' friends, me... we'd all had been to wars that were to change the world.
And still we're killing each other, always in a cause, always with justification, always without hope of there ever being an end to it.
164
That was beautiful. Thanks.
10
... my three word answer to my uncle Harry was, "Not so much." We sat in silence eating that ice cream. Words aren't necessary between soldiers who have done what we'd done and lived through what we'd lived through.
I think of Harry often over the decades since he died. I visited him in hospital a week or so before he died. I doubt that he remembered me let alone those moments. I do. That's sufficient. Harry won't be any more dead than friends from Vietnam until I'm also dead and their memories as vanished as stars plunging into black holes.
In those quiet moments when I submit to depression I take out my recording of "The Green Fields of France" and toast Harry, and all the others among us who are brothers in the great deceit of heroism that is not much more in the end than what Aristotle best assessed as the luck of war, or "When the guy next to you gets hit with the arrow.”
https://youtu.be/DxkhBvO8_kM
Ya, we're much more practiced in war now, and employ even better weapons, and the end of it is that the slaughter goes on, and shows no promise of ever stopping.
Here's to you Harry.
I think of Harry often over the decades since he died. I visited him in hospital a week or so before he died. I doubt that he remembered me let alone those moments. I do. That's sufficient. Harry won't be any more dead than friends from Vietnam until I'm also dead and their memories as vanished as stars plunging into black holes.
In those quiet moments when I submit to depression I take out my recording of "The Green Fields of France" and toast Harry, and all the others among us who are brothers in the great deceit of heroism that is not much more in the end than what Aristotle best assessed as the luck of war, or "When the guy next to you gets hit with the arrow.”
https://youtu.be/DxkhBvO8_kM
Ya, we're much more practiced in war now, and employ even better weapons, and the end of it is that the slaughter goes on, and shows no promise of ever stopping.
Here's to you Harry.
43
Since 9/11/01 a mere 0.75% of Americans have volunteered to wear the military uniform of any American armed force. None of them have come from the House of Trump. None of the Trump Administration generals have ever won a war or sustained a peace.
6
The true horror of war -- any war -- is not that 280,000 were killed and wounded at Arras a hundred years ago, nor the 22 killed and 60 injured at Manchester last week. The true horror should be recognized as the first man or young boy who is killed and war breaks out in retaliation, or the first woman or young girl who is killed by the first bullet fired in the war that breaks out because some "leader" feels dis-respected. It is the same horror whether between street gangs, tribes, nations, or religious sects.
We humans are the only animals that kill just because we can.
We humans are the only animals that kill just because we can.
33
"We humans are the only animals that kill just because we can."
Nearly but not quite true, chimpanzee clans have been shown going to war with other clans.
Nearly but not quite true, chimpanzee clans have been shown going to war with other clans.
Cur close primate ape cousins the chimpanzees also kill because they can.
We humans have very little of the humble empathy of our bonobo, gorilla and orangutan kin.
What this is all really about is our biological DNA genetic evolutionary fit driven quest for fat, salt, sugar, water, habitat, sex and kin by any means necessary including cooperation and conflict.
Was what happened at Cannae, Teutoburg, Hastings, Agincourt, Waterloo, Gettysburg, Stalingrad, Normandy and Berlin 'glorious'?
We humans have very little of the humble empathy of our bonobo, gorilla and orangutan kin.
What this is all really about is our biological DNA genetic evolutionary fit driven quest for fat, salt, sugar, water, habitat, sex and kin by any means necessary including cooperation and conflict.
Was what happened at Cannae, Teutoburg, Hastings, Agincourt, Waterloo, Gettysburg, Stalingrad, Normandy and Berlin 'glorious'?
Guess there isn't any reason then to search for "the missing link." Chimps are our closest genetic relatives (I think that's true) so perhaps evolution doesn't always make improvements. I much prefer the "make love not war" proclivities of the Bonobo.
It's true. We don't really have a good explanation for the astronomic numbers of
the war dead from two World Wars. How could people have done that to each other? I'd guess for the same reason somebody kills themselves and a number
of children with a homemade bomb.
the war dead from two World Wars. How could people have done that to each other? I'd guess for the same reason somebody kills themselves and a number
of children with a homemade bomb.
14
Why are the two World War II holocausts that left 30 million Chinese dead by Imperial Japan and the 27.5 million Soviets killed by Nazi Germany not the Holocaust?
America invented and used the atomic bomb.
From the machine gun to the gas chambers and chemical warfare to drone fired missiles and smart bombs plus hydrogen bombs represents 'progress' in the moral humane technology of killing. Right?
America invented and used the atomic bomb.
From the machine gun to the gas chambers and chemical warfare to drone fired missiles and smart bombs plus hydrogen bombs represents 'progress' in the moral humane technology of killing. Right?
10
The suicide bomber apparently is educated--in a parochial madrassa(?).
Franco-Prussian War, WW I and WW II are, I suppose, not considered as important in his religious oriented curriculum(?).
Please, I'm guessing.
I am taking pains to be fair, but if I'm not, then I regret being interpreted as
unworldly & biased, that is unfortunately semi true.
But I'll make my obvious/dubious point:
The suicide bomber probably knew next to nothing about British & religious conflict history (at least in Europe!).
Your point about tragedy perhaps falls on the ignorant ears of potential "existential" suicide agents.
In other words, desperate immigrants and refugees are almost as ignorant as many (if not most) British born/acculturated.
My sourness aka irony is about too d many Americans too.
Franco-Prussian War, WW I and WW II are, I suppose, not considered as important in his religious oriented curriculum(?).
Please, I'm guessing.
I am taking pains to be fair, but if I'm not, then I regret being interpreted as
unworldly & biased, that is unfortunately semi true.
But I'll make my obvious/dubious point:
The suicide bomber probably knew next to nothing about British & religious conflict history (at least in Europe!).
Your point about tragedy perhaps falls on the ignorant ears of potential "existential" suicide agents.
In other words, desperate immigrants and refugees are almost as ignorant as many (if not most) British born/acculturated.
My sourness aka irony is about too d many Americans too.
3
No physical evidence anyone is killing anyone.
Let me correct you Timothy Egan...your statement "They are stateless murderers plotting from failed-state ghettos like Libya" infuriates me. Libya is a failed state because of USA. It is we, here, who have made it that way by arming rival factions to the hilt and creating events that make Libya what it is today.
The tuition fees for my university education, monies for my rent, food, utilities, transportation, etc. to name a few things often came from Libya where my uncle was working in the early 1980s and he sent me funds so I could be comfortable in Houston. I also met a graduate Pakistani student who had previously worked in Libya and came to finish a Masters in Accountancy. Both my uncle and this student described Libya to be an EXCELLENT place to live and work and Colonel Qaddafi took care of ALL Libyans very well.
The real problem is that we here in the west are NOT HAPPY to see others prosperous and happy. It is we who are bankrupt financially and morally. 20 trillion or more dollars debt the USA has. This is never getting paid. We keep on borrowing more and more to keep this country running... in effect we are creating money out of thin air.
This guy who did this in England was no different than many of the degenerates right here in the USA who go to schools, or other public places with guns and raze a few folks. Do a bit of second or higher order analysis for these criminal acts. To use a former lingo, this guy in England went postal. That's it. Nothing more.
The tuition fees for my university education, monies for my rent, food, utilities, transportation, etc. to name a few things often came from Libya where my uncle was working in the early 1980s and he sent me funds so I could be comfortable in Houston. I also met a graduate Pakistani student who had previously worked in Libya and came to finish a Masters in Accountancy. Both my uncle and this student described Libya to be an EXCELLENT place to live and work and Colonel Qaddafi took care of ALL Libyans very well.
The real problem is that we here in the west are NOT HAPPY to see others prosperous and happy. It is we who are bankrupt financially and morally. 20 trillion or more dollars debt the USA has. This is never getting paid. We keep on borrowing more and more to keep this country running... in effect we are creating money out of thin air.
This guy who did this in England was no different than many of the degenerates right here in the USA who go to schools, or other public places with guns and raze a few folks. Do a bit of second or higher order analysis for these criminal acts. To use a former lingo, this guy in England went postal. That's it. Nothing more.
10
If you are killed or someone in your family is killed by someone it is terror.
My fellow Americans need to remember that King George thought very much that George Washington was a terrorist.
My fellow Americans need to remember that King George thought very much that George Washington was a terrorist.
1
The physical and social sciences explain the problem: humans are not rational decision makers. Emotions drive our decisions, and the most powerful emotion is fear. The list includes fear of loss, fear of ostracism, fear of survival, etc. We cannot survive unless we have a tribe and so we cling to our tribes at all costs, or we die. This is built in our DNA.
Trump and many politicians have effectively used fear to gain power. The tribal divide between Democrats or Republicans, Christians or Muslims, Rich or Poor, will continue as long as we fear of "the other," however that is defined by our emotions.
Trump and many politicians have effectively used fear to gain power. The tribal divide between Democrats or Republicans, Christians or Muslims, Rich or Poor, will continue as long as we fear of "the other," however that is defined by our emotions.
4
More are killed today through starvation. Pushing millions out of fertile lands and keeping them from moving to new lands so a few can have more.
Greed in it's neglect of others kills more than bullets now!
Greed in it's neglect of others kills more than bullets now!
17
Men attacking children, because they think they'll be rewarded in the afterlife.
How can there be more than one man like this on the planet?
Why is there an unlimited amount of these cowards?
One hopes that evolution eventually weeds out debilitating stupidity and cowardice from the human brain.
How can there be more than one man like this on the planet?
Why is there an unlimited amount of these cowards?
One hopes that evolution eventually weeds out debilitating stupidity and cowardice from the human brain.
13
The way that Americans, Europeans and Israelis kill Muslim kids is by warplanes, missiles and drones.
And the Muslim kids are a nameless faceless statistical legion.
While the top Muslim killer leader was a brown Kenyan American Nobel Peace Prize winner with a target list for his nation's drone fired missiles.
Who are the terrorists? Who are the freedom fighters? That depends on historical context, perspective, interpretation, money and victor's 'justice'.
Either we are all created equal and our one human race species brothers and sister's keepers who should be treated as we would like to be treated by humble humane empathy or we are cynical callous hypocritical monsters who have earned and deserve our fate.
And the Muslim kids are a nameless faceless statistical legion.
While the top Muslim killer leader was a brown Kenyan American Nobel Peace Prize winner with a target list for his nation's drone fired missiles.
Who are the terrorists? Who are the freedom fighters? That depends on historical context, perspective, interpretation, money and victor's 'justice'.
Either we are all created equal and our one human race species brothers and sister's keepers who should be treated as we would like to be treated by humble humane empathy or we are cynical callous hypocritical monsters who have earned and deserve our fate.
2
Sadly, any words or wisdom would be wasted on Donald Trump.
I think, too, any honest account of World War II civilian massacres would include
at least a mention of Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
I think, too, any honest account of World War II civilian massacres would include
at least a mention of Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
59
Donald Trump did not invade and occupy Iraq.
Trump did not support coups in Libya, Yemen, Egypt and Syria.
Trump has not won a Nobel Peace Prize.
Nanjing and Stalingrad are World War II horrors.
NASA is the gift of Nazi German science.
Trump did not support coups in Libya, Yemen, Egypt and Syria.
Trump has not won a Nobel Peace Prize.
Nanjing and Stalingrad are World War II horrors.
NASA is the gift of Nazi German science.
3
Guess you forgot about Pearl Harbor
"It could have been worse" is the best that can be said of the Grifter POTUS' European trip. Can an acorn find a blind pig? I doubt it. The best we can hope for is that the Idiot will rest and play golf at one of his golf course hotels for the rest of his Presidency, and minimize the damage. God help us if we have a true crisis.
19
The leak about the Manchester investigation has Bannon all over it. It gives Trump a blank check to "go after the leakers". That's code for creating an atmosphere of fear where whistle-blowers will be too intimidated to take a chance on revealing malfeasance at the highest levels. "Democracy dies in darkness" is the motto of the Washington Post. It's worth remembering.
57
A moving, deeply thought-provoking and beautifully written piece. Thank you.
5
The first known - recorded wars took place over 3500.B.C.E. in Mesopotamia. We know there were City States there by 4,000 B.C.E. and it only took them 500 years to get armies and start to war on each other - Sumer v. Akkad one of the first. What about? Who won? How many lives lost? How many wounded? Men, women, children demographic?
The first war that could be called Iran/Iraq was dated about 2,700 B.C.E.
There is a site in Kenya showing a concerted and planned attack from one group against another, killing 27 men, women and children - one pregnant woman - with weapons not used for hunting, fishing or farming - and some were bound at the time of their deaths. This was 10,000 years ago. Qualifies as a war? Well, at least a terrorist attack, no? What was the problem? Territory? Greed? Lust? Anger? Religion?
How many wars gone unrecorded, all over the world, over how many centuries, for whatever reasons, so justified at the time, forgotten now.
We bombed Japan, now are best friends. We were allies with Russia - now charge treason to talk with them. Germany? Depends on the decade. Vietnam? Depends on the decade.
And you can bet there was one group that profited from each and every one - the old men that declared them.
So many billions of young people dead.
What possible reason could there be to justify a war that time - sooner or later - will forget ever happened - or at least not care about anymore.
The first war that could be called Iran/Iraq was dated about 2,700 B.C.E.
There is a site in Kenya showing a concerted and planned attack from one group against another, killing 27 men, women and children - one pregnant woman - with weapons not used for hunting, fishing or farming - and some were bound at the time of their deaths. This was 10,000 years ago. Qualifies as a war? Well, at least a terrorist attack, no? What was the problem? Territory? Greed? Lust? Anger? Religion?
How many wars gone unrecorded, all over the world, over how many centuries, for whatever reasons, so justified at the time, forgotten now.
We bombed Japan, now are best friends. We were allies with Russia - now charge treason to talk with them. Germany? Depends on the decade. Vietnam? Depends on the decade.
And you can bet there was one group that profited from each and every one - the old men that declared them.
So many billions of young people dead.
What possible reason could there be to justify a war that time - sooner or later - will forget ever happened - or at least not care about anymore.
30
The disingenuous nature of articles of this sort will only further empower the Trumps and LePens of the world. The fact is, we are dealing with a global jihadist insurgency, whose actions and beliefs - the killing of infidels and apostates, martyrdom, waging jihad, the oppression of women - find explicit support in Islamic doctrine.
Can we please talk about belief and action? The details of the Manchester killer are still emerging, but no matter his background, the only reason he is able to go through with a grotesque act of the sort we just saw is because he actually believes what he says he believes. He actually wants to get to Paradise because of what is written in his holy book.
How many well-educated, upper middle class men and women have we seen defect from the West to join ISIS? How many more will it take to admit that they are motivated by *ideas*. The doctrine of Islam is a set of ideas. A set of ideas that is in desperation need of a reformation, and it needs to be challenged and ridiculed and critiqued for the barbarity it contains.
Until Western liberals stop playing this game of obfuscation and obscurantism there is no hope to stem the tide of radicalization. Let's admit this and in doing so help to empower the moderate Muslims of the world whose voices must be amplified louder than anyone else's at the moment.
Can we please talk about belief and action? The details of the Manchester killer are still emerging, but no matter his background, the only reason he is able to go through with a grotesque act of the sort we just saw is because he actually believes what he says he believes. He actually wants to get to Paradise because of what is written in his holy book.
How many well-educated, upper middle class men and women have we seen defect from the West to join ISIS? How many more will it take to admit that they are motivated by *ideas*. The doctrine of Islam is a set of ideas. A set of ideas that is in desperation need of a reformation, and it needs to be challenged and ridiculed and critiqued for the barbarity it contains.
Until Western liberals stop playing this game of obfuscation and obscurantism there is no hope to stem the tide of radicalization. Let's admit this and in doing so help to empower the moderate Muslims of the world whose voices must be amplified louder than anyone else's at the moment.
17
There have been approx. 400 Americans killed by foreign terrorists of one kind or another since 9-11.
There have been approx. 400,000 Americans killed by other Americans in that same time period by the approx. 300 million guns we find no reason to regulate.
Remember, too, that the refugee crisis from Syria started because of a global warming caused drought there. You want to see some real chaos wait until the warming crisis really gets going.
There have been approx. 400,000 Americans killed by other Americans in that same time period by the approx. 300 million guns we find no reason to regulate.
Remember, too, that the refugee crisis from Syria started because of a global warming caused drought there. You want to see some real chaos wait until the warming crisis really gets going.
1
The terrorist couple in California (was it San Bernardino) were educated and relatively well-off as was the Doctor in the US military that murdered people at Fort Hood in Texas. Other past terrorists in England and Europe have included doctors. Education does not make certain types of people less susceptible to idiotic persuasion.
A sad but true commentary about the world we live in today. Not to take away from the tragedy that happened in Manchester, but we should not forget or lose sight of violence and death in America. According to the CDC, on average 93 individuals in the United States are murdered by guns every day, which was a total of 12,979 needless lives lost in 2015. How soon we forget about the children at Sandy Hook, those in Denver, Orlando, Chicago and on and on it goes. Unless it happens to our family or a friend, we seems to have become so hardened and immune to the senseless of it all. Yes, remember and say a prayer for the people in Manchester, but also remember those in America that did not deserve to have their lives taken away by the violent act of a madman.
47
Perhaps we should shift our focus to WWII, an encounter with evil in which all the belligerent powers targeted children as well as adults. The Allies did not intentionally seek out children, but Churchill and Roosevelt knew that bombing campaigns aimed at cities would not exempt children from destruction. Confronting a monstrous evil in the form of the Nazi and Japanese regimes, they reluctantly endorsed the savage calculus that condemned the innocent along with the guilty.
The morality of their choice still arouses legitimate debate, but not as a means of justifying the methods of contemporary terrorists. The latter focus their attacks on vulnerable members of society, both in the Middle East and in the West, to demonstrate that no one remains safe from their bombs. The fact that they also often rely on vulnerable people to 'deliver' their bombs reinforces the message that vengeance rather than justice inspires their movement.
This comparison does not, however, absolve America of its continued reliance on military tactics that, inadvertently or not, kill children and other non-combatants. Facing an enemy far less dangerous than Nazi Germany, we still have not found a way to exempt the innocent in our pursuit of the guilty. The fact that our enemies' nihilistic methods intentionally target everyone should not comfort us with a sense of moral superiority. Our hands, like those of FDR and Roosevelt, are still bloody.
The morality of their choice still arouses legitimate debate, but not as a means of justifying the methods of contemporary terrorists. The latter focus their attacks on vulnerable members of society, both in the Middle East and in the West, to demonstrate that no one remains safe from their bombs. The fact that they also often rely on vulnerable people to 'deliver' their bombs reinforces the message that vengeance rather than justice inspires their movement.
This comparison does not, however, absolve America of its continued reliance on military tactics that, inadvertently or not, kill children and other non-combatants. Facing an enemy far less dangerous than Nazi Germany, we still have not found a way to exempt the innocent in our pursuit of the guilty. The fact that our enemies' nihilistic methods intentionally target everyone should not comfort us with a sense of moral superiority. Our hands, like those of FDR and Roosevelt, are still bloody.
3
We don't know if Abedi was a psychopath. Please don't make the mistake of giving this person a psychiatric diagnosis. What we know is that he was a British born citizen of Libyan descent. We can guess he felt that bombing a concert was a way to make his feelings about Britain known but since he's dead, we can't verify it without supporting documentation or statements from people who knew him.
What we don't have to guess about is that something is causing young men and some young women to become independent or terrorist affiliated mass murderers. It's easy to blame Islam but this reader feels that there is something more going on here than a religion. We're living in a time when resources are becoming scarce due to an increase in human population. Those resources include the basic necessities of life: water, food, shelter, the means to pay or trade for these items, etc. People who are dispossessed are often a source of political problems and will start the fires that can lead to an all out war.
I don't know the answers to these issues. I do know that if there is a critical mass of people who feel that they are not benefitting from their work but others are, and that their dignity is being taken from them, they will seek redress however and wherever they can. This mass can include refugees, or any person who has experienced, first hand the corrosive effects of any type of warfare or prejudice. Most won't resort to terror but some do.
What we don't have to guess about is that something is causing young men and some young women to become independent or terrorist affiliated mass murderers. It's easy to blame Islam but this reader feels that there is something more going on here than a religion. We're living in a time when resources are becoming scarce due to an increase in human population. Those resources include the basic necessities of life: water, food, shelter, the means to pay or trade for these items, etc. People who are dispossessed are often a source of political problems and will start the fires that can lead to an all out war.
I don't know the answers to these issues. I do know that if there is a critical mass of people who feel that they are not benefitting from their work but others are, and that their dignity is being taken from them, they will seek redress however and wherever they can. This mass can include refugees, or any person who has experienced, first hand the corrosive effects of any type of warfare or prejudice. Most won't resort to terror but some do.
67
PSYCHOPATH is good enough to describe even if it is not diagnostically correct.
6
Resources may be expensive and distributed unevenly, but they are far from scarce. We are living in very abundant times.
How many millions of dispossessed people live in Venezuela, Mexico, Brazil, Guatemala, etc? People who live in extreme inequality and who's resources have been stripped by global powers. And how many terrorist attacks like the one in Manchester emanate from those countries? You don't have to call it a religious phenomenon, but it certainly seems to be a cultural one.
How many millions of dispossessed people live in Venezuela, Mexico, Brazil, Guatemala, etc? People who live in extreme inequality and who's resources have been stripped by global powers. And how many terrorist attacks like the one in Manchester emanate from those countries? You don't have to call it a religious phenomenon, but it certainly seems to be a cultural one.
4
Everyone is searching for the complex answer when it is very simple and in front of our own eyes. Islam provides the blueprint and ISIS is taking it literally. They are not extremists, they are literalists. We have them in all societies. What is different is the literal interpretation in this case gives way to people will to die to go to heaven.
4
What is Egan attempting to prove and what is his solution to terrorism? Terrorism in Europe and the US is a problem, but nothing like the World Wars. The number of people killed in terrorist attacks is a small fraction of those violently killed in automobile accidents, just for one example. Terrorism does not remotely pose a threat to the existence of the US or any country in Europe as the World Wars did.
The killing is much greater in the Middle East. There are national and religious interests involved there and there is no reason to think the area would be peaceful in any case, but the intervention of the US and European powers is not reducing the carnage. The reason that there is terrorism in the US and Europe is mainly the resentment of this intervention. This intervention has heightened the conflict between the Islamic and Christian worlds. The US is intervening mainly because of its interest in securing a supply of oil, and this obviously comes before any opposition to autocracy, as practiced (for example) by the Saudi Princes.
The killing is much greater in the Middle East. There are national and religious interests involved there and there is no reason to think the area would be peaceful in any case, but the intervention of the US and European powers is not reducing the carnage. The reason that there is terrorism in the US and Europe is mainly the resentment of this intervention. This intervention has heightened the conflict between the Islamic and Christian worlds. The US is intervening mainly because of its interest in securing a supply of oil, and this obviously comes before any opposition to autocracy, as practiced (for example) by the Saudi Princes.
58
The solution to TERRORISM is HAPPINESS.
I mean it ...it really is that simple.
But people like TRUMP - not just TRUMP - are making people UNHAPPY and therefor some will want a way out of their suffering especially when it involves ISLAMIC promises. They like the help and attention they get on their way to that solution (DEATH) from the training camps and body bomb makers in (ISIS) by causing innocent death.
I mean it ...it really is that simple.
But people like TRUMP - not just TRUMP - are making people UNHAPPY and therefor some will want a way out of their suffering especially when it involves ISLAMIC promises. They like the help and attention they get on their way to that solution (DEATH) from the training camps and body bomb makers in (ISIS) by causing innocent death.
2
So you recommend doing nothing except buikd mounds of wilting flowers and melting candles? All that will do is create a massive backlash and may encourage vigilante payback.
2
Good lord, not more of this bit about the US causing this: This is a war about the spoils of the oil sales, all about the money, with the religious aspect nothing but a way to keep the meat-headed masses in line. If it were not for the oil no one would care a whit for any of these people and their desire to exterminate each other.
My wish would be for the US to simply get out of the world-policeman or nanny state role for these places and let them get on with their killing. Does it matter who sells us the oil we want and need? Really?
My wish would be for the US to simply get out of the world-policeman or nanny state role for these places and let them get on with their killing. Does it matter who sells us the oil we want and need? Really?
We should make comments instead the Middle Eastern languages and refer to them as the Djinns (devil/demons) of Islam, and wonder how such creatures can be allowed to blaspheme by harming so many of the children of Allah, who certainly didn't create them, just so they could be murdered by such fiends.