Yeah right. There is only one question to ask here. If you find out that your 15 or 16 year old child is having an affair with his or her 40 year married, parent of 3 children drama teacher AND you ask that teacher to please leave your child alone AND that teacher tells you tearfully that he or she cannot promise anything, what would you do? How would you feel as a parent to that 15 or 16 year old child? Read Anne Fulda's interview of Brigitte Macron. This is what happened. What I would like to know is how her eldest son (who is 2 years older) manage his life considering. Her ex-husband (Andre-Louis Auziere) has disappeared from the face of the earth by his pure choice but left with just one thing to say that he was severely traumatised by what she did that he even missed the funeral of his mother out of angst that he might see her if he went to the funeral.
2
I agree with some comments here, the paper here gives only part of the story. Yes' as a French living in France, i can confirm that we are pretty indifferent about the sex lives of our politicians. That's simply because wére used to them having non monogamous lives. I guess part of it is that because we know part of their job is to seduce people (I mean voters), and that seducing someone into an extramarital affair is just one step further. I'm 39 and I never lived under a faithfull president(Giscard had a strange car accident driving himself on the champs élysée while president, and it is widely accepted that he came from his mistress place; even Pompidou-to be more exact, his wife- has been victim of a false smear campaign) so as the article says it would be quite a change to have a rather "traditionnal" couple in the Elysée palace.
Yet, two sings are bothering me:
1) I don't mind about the age gap, but as to when the romance started: if I were to start a romance with a 15 year old girl, I would be in trouble, and rightfully so. Ten years from now, dating a 25 woman wouldn't be the same rhing at all.
2) the article assumes that nobody frowned about this. Well, a lot of people did, including me who would be an extreme liberal far to the left of Bernie Sanders in the US. What the paper misses is that Mr Macron did not really win this election. Mme le Pen lost it. Mr Macron would probably have lost against any other adversary. We voted against her much more than for him
Yet, two sings are bothering me:
1) I don't mind about the age gap, but as to when the romance started: if I were to start a romance with a 15 year old girl, I would be in trouble, and rightfully so. Ten years from now, dating a 25 woman wouldn't be the same rhing at all.
2) the article assumes that nobody frowned about this. Well, a lot of people did, including me who would be an extreme liberal far to the left of Bernie Sanders in the US. What the paper misses is that Mr Macron did not really win this election. Mme le Pen lost it. Mr Macron would probably have lost against any other adversary. We voted against her much more than for him
4
Question:
If it's OK for a 39-year-old teacher to commence an affair with a 17-year-old who had been her student throughout high school, then why isn't it OK for a psychotherapist to commence an affair with a patient? Can the patient just quit the therapy, then the affair can begin without moral or ethical qualms? What are the rules here? What obligations go along with occupying a position of trust or authority over a person whose status makes that person vulnerable?
If it's OK for a 39-year-old teacher to commence an affair with a 17-year-old who had been her student throughout high school, then why isn't it OK for a psychotherapist to commence an affair with a patient? Can the patient just quit the therapy, then the affair can begin without moral or ethical qualms? What are the rules here? What obligations go along with occupying a position of trust or authority over a person whose status makes that person vulnerable?
6
The way this relationship started was on the spectrum between disgustingly inappropriate and criminal (at least in the US – – apparently not in France). He was a teenage boy, 17, when the affair began. She was a married mother of three who had been his teacher and mentor, with one of her children his high school classmate.
The question is: have their two decades of apparently happy life together sanitized the abomination of their beginnings? More to the point, can she be forgiven for transgressing into sexual intimacy with a minor toward whom she was in a position of trust?
I guess if the French don't care, then I shouldn't either. But on a visceral level, I am repulsed by her. She was an adult, and she should have controlled herself.
With a nod to Woody Allen, sometimes the heart shouldn't get what it wants.
The question is: have their two decades of apparently happy life together sanitized the abomination of their beginnings? More to the point, can she be forgiven for transgressing into sexual intimacy with a minor toward whom she was in a position of trust?
I guess if the French don't care, then I shouldn't either. But on a visceral level, I am repulsed by her. She was an adult, and she should have controlled herself.
With a nod to Woody Allen, sometimes the heart shouldn't get what it wants.
9
Such a lovely informative article.
Thank you again Mr. Cohen, so needed at this time of closemindedness here at home.
Thank you again Mr. Cohen, so needed at this time of closemindedness here at home.
6
Vive la France!
3
Roger Cohen is to be congratulated for this piece. His appreciation for the individuality of passion is profound and, one hopes, liberating for his readers.
6
I am more creeped out by Mike Pence calling his wife "mother" and refusing to travel in a car or eat in a restaurant alone with a women when out on business than I am by either the age difference between Mr. Macron and his wife or the fact that the French teach high school students about human sexuality.
15
Personally, I am creeped out both by what Mike Pence calls his wife and by an affair that starts between a teacher at age 39 and a student aged 17. In fact, I am beyond creeped out by the latter. It feels morally wrong to me for an adult to take advantage of a minor when the adult is in a position of trust.
5
Really... and where dd Brigitte Macron teach drama? Was it Horace Mann, Poly Prep or Brearley?
The hypocrisy of the elites never ceases to astound me.
The hypocrisy of the elites never ceases to astound me.
4
Where is votre grammaire? "Quelle atroce" means absolutely nothing. Not that I'd agree with the statement "comme c'est atroce" but at least it'd make sense.
4
PS: NYT I don't understand what happened, this was a reply to Philboyd. Now it's my comment that nonsensical.
1
I'm less flummoxed by the age difference than I am by Bridget's svelte-ness in spite of her history growing up in a chocolate family!
10
Stop making a fairy tale of their story. It's sickening. It has nothing to do with being an older woman or older man. Did Trump meet his wife when she was 15 years old and was he a teacher? Even in France, what she did is illegal. No one wants to talk about that. As she was interviewed by Anne Fulda, his parents told her to stay away before they sent him to Paris at the age of 17. She tearfully told the parents that she cannot promise them anything. So she, who is 24 years and 8 months older, married with 3 children (eldest son is 2 years older than Macron), encouraged and worked on seducing him since they met when he was 15 years old. What is romantic about this? Her ex-husband has somehow disappeared from the face of the earth. The only word from him is that he was severely traumatised by what she did. There is nothing admirable about this. There are only 2 numbers to remember here: 15 and 40. If the 40 year old was a man, you bet he would be in jail. She was just lucky that his parents or her ex-husband did not sue her. Make no mistake. This is also illegal in france.
8
Madame, how totally British! Celebrating love is difficult for us Americans too.
6
Our admiration for Macron is not that he married a woman 24 years older, and disgust for Trump not that he married a woman 24 years younger. This is these couples' business and for this God bless them.
8
They all like cheese, too. And wine. And they all leave town in August. In fact, they all think and do and believe exactly the same things. Except when they vote.
1
President Francois Hollande was hopeless and had an approval rating of 4%. Macron was his economics minister. The French economy only recovered from the crash in 2016 and unemployment is still 10%. A lot of France's problems stem from its membership of the euro. That is not going to change because Macron is an EU fanatic. He was educated at ENA like Chirac, Giscard and Hollande. He's part of the inner circle that runs France. Macron maybe the last chance for the French establishment. If Le Pen had not had so much baggage she might have won. If Macron fails she might next time.
2
My side glance at Macron and his wife is not about their respective genders or even the age difference. It's about when the affair started.
Here in the U.S, a 39 yr old teacher; male or female, married or not, who began a relationship with a 17 yr old student, even if consensual would be prosecuted for sex crimes.
Legally we regard these students as victims and I don't think that should be subject to cultural relativism no matter the politics.
Here in the U.S, a 39 yr old teacher; male or female, married or not, who began a relationship with a 17 yr old student, even if consensual would be prosecuted for sex crimes.
Legally we regard these students as victims and I don't think that should be subject to cultural relativism no matter the politics.
8
There is a scientific angle to the sexual selection aspects of this story that is worth noting. Many evolutionary biologists associate neoteny with the process of domestication. The slowing of development and retention of juvenile characteristics such as playfulness and flatter faces is a noted feature of several domesticated species including dogs, bonobos, and humans. Perhaps that final phase of cognitive development that we insist is necessary to the capacity for decision making is not such a desirable thing after all.
This is hypocrisy. If the roles were reversed, and a 15-year-old schoolgirl had pursued a married, 39-year-old male teacher, and subsequently hounded him until he left his wife and children for her, that woman would be pilloried. But somehow when a male is the pursuer it's copacetic? Why is one considered evolved while the other is just predatory? Ridiculous.
In my opionion, it's repugnant when either a man or a woman pairs up with someone the age of their own children. The part where one of these partners actually was a child when the crush began makes this all the more repulsive. I see nothing liberating about it at all.
In my opionion, it's repugnant when either a man or a woman pairs up with someone the age of their own children. The part where one of these partners actually was a child when the crush began makes this all the more repulsive. I see nothing liberating about it at all.
8
As a Frenchman living in France, I respectfully do not agree with the description of how the French are tolerant or how the sex education is open here.
Remember : the French had the choice between a woman (Lepen) and Macron and voted for the latter as the obvious lesser of 2 evils.
Secondly, the real issue with Brigitte Macron is not really the age difference but 1) the risk to have an egomaniac promethean president that 'married his mother' (He was in the same class as Brigitte's daughter) and legally a minor 2) we know very little about this guy's private life, his education, his parents (same age as Brigitte) , his friends, .. and finally Brigitte story itself is usually grossly misconstrued (age difference was 15 years in the news reports until last week as you can check).
Remember : the French had the choice between a woman (Lepen) and Macron and voted for the latter as the obvious lesser of 2 evils.
Secondly, the real issue with Brigitte Macron is not really the age difference but 1) the risk to have an egomaniac promethean president that 'married his mother' (He was in the same class as Brigitte's daughter) and legally a minor 2) we know very little about this guy's private life, his education, his parents (same age as Brigitte) , his friends, .. and finally Brigitte story itself is usually grossly misconstrued (age difference was 15 years in the news reports until last week as you can check).
7
"Brigitte Macron, Liberator"
Mais oui.
She liberated Ms. Macron, who had no compunction of breaking up the marriage of a woman with three children , by acceding to his requests, dumping the husband of her children - andthus teaching M Macron that morals and loyalityy count for nothing.
As M, Bayrou and M. Valls, whose support helped him to win the Presidency and who are now discarded like refuse are finding out.
She liberated M. Macron - but not for the better.
.
Mais oui.
She liberated Ms. Macron, who had no compunction of breaking up the marriage of a woman with three children , by acceding to his requests, dumping the husband of her children - andthus teaching M Macron that morals and loyalityy count for nothing.
As M, Bayrou and M. Valls, whose support helped him to win the Presidency and who are now discarded like refuse are finding out.
She liberated M. Macron - but not for the better.
.
5
This country has such puritanical underpinnings. The difference between living on the continent and in the US is like night an day. You must travel and live out of the USA to really understand how really "hung up" this country is, about a whole lot of things.
11
Those same 'puritanical underpinnings' that have declared a sexual assault crisis on U.S college campuses should be disparaged as well? Or is sexual assault and indiscretion only punished or celebrated when there is political power at stake?
3
Sexual majority in France is 15 and three months (don't ask me why for the three months). BTW it's not a law it's a norm on which french courts take their decisions. Therefore if Macron had managed to seduce his Professor at this age, which he didn't if you know the story, for he was taken away from her until 18, it would have been perfectly legal, consensual sex between adults.
And I'd have been very happy with that if you ask me.
Consensual, passionate sex is the most beautiful thing in life.
And I'd have been very happy with that if you ask me.
Consensual, passionate sex is the most beautiful thing in life.
26
My take on this – RC is supporting the Macron's June / December relationship because Macron is a liberal globalist EU enthusiast. Same to be said for the supportive liberal commenters.
Had Macron been head of the National Front, I hardly expect that this article would have been written by RC, but instead by a conservative; and liberal commenters would not have been nearly as enthusiastic with their support.
The political stripes are obviously the important factor, which predictably influence and bias positions on this topic.
Had Macron been head of the National Front, I hardly expect that this article would have been written by RC, but instead by a conservative; and liberal commenters would not have been nearly as enthusiastic with their support.
The political stripes are obviously the important factor, which predictably influence and bias positions on this topic.
5
I, too, am a man who loves older women, and I've been pursuing them for a long time. Unfortunately, I've never been successful in persuading them. Mature American women have all rejected me on the grounds of age. So the rarity of the "older woman" pairing doesn't just come from male preferences, it also comes from what the females apparently want. American women are conservative, too, not just the men.
6
You assume that you were rejected because the women were "conservative"? Have you considered that these older women simply might not be interested in you? Maybe they prefer companions with whom they have something in common. Someone they can relate to in a meaningful way. Someone they can talk to. I am an "older woman" who can appreciate the beauty of youth, but I know I would be bored to tears by a man 24 years younger than I.
1
I agree 100 %, Eugene!
Sadly, it's now 2017 and most women apparently still prefer a male partner who is about two to twenty years older. Women by and large live longer than men; thus it would make more sense for both sexes if (straight) women chose male partners who are younger, not older than themselves.
One thing bothers me however and I think this might explain why most women don't choose younger men as their partners. An older man can be bald/grey haired, overweight, wrinkled, etc and still have a much younger female partner (Donald and Melania are only one of many examples of this.) But rarely will you see a woman who looks her actual age coupled with a younger man. The woman has usually had work done on her face and body, dyes her hair, wears "young" clothes. Brigitte appears to have work done since she was in her 40s which I wish she wouldn't have - in older pictures from when she was a drama teacher she looks truly lovely, no wonder he fell for her hard. Now I think she looks like a 64-year-old woman trying too hard to pass for a woman in her 40s. That's too bad because I believe her husband would adore her no matter what she looks like.
Sadly, it's now 2017 and most women apparently still prefer a male partner who is about two to twenty years older. Women by and large live longer than men; thus it would make more sense for both sexes if (straight) women chose male partners who are younger, not older than themselves.
One thing bothers me however and I think this might explain why most women don't choose younger men as their partners. An older man can be bald/grey haired, overweight, wrinkled, etc and still have a much younger female partner (Donald and Melania are only one of many examples of this.) But rarely will you see a woman who looks her actual age coupled with a younger man. The woman has usually had work done on her face and body, dyes her hair, wears "young" clothes. Brigitte appears to have work done since she was in her 40s which I wish she wouldn't have - in older pictures from when she was a drama teacher she looks truly lovely, no wonder he fell for her hard. Now I think she looks like a 64-year-old woman trying too hard to pass for a woman in her 40s. That's too bad because I believe her husband would adore her no matter what she looks like.
4
That might depend on the man. Sweeping assumptions do not guarantee a happy life.
Please stop fawning over a person who as a teenager relentlessly pursued his drama teacher who was married with 3 children. There is nothing liberating about it. You would give quite a lecture to your children if they were guilty of the same actions. As for a younger man marrying an older woman, there are plenty of such instances and i am sure you can find one that is less creepy than a student who stalked his teacher before convincing her that she was ripe for him.
17
Nailadi, you are so unFrench.
3
Would you quibble with the outcome?
4
"guilty", "creepy", "ripe". So American!
5
Mme. Macron would seem to embody that quality, perhaps peculiar to French women, of "élan."
10
Sexism has "been in short supply"?? I am not sure where this perspective comes from.
LeMonde just ran a piece on how the ugly reactions to Brigitte Macron have exposed how deeply anchored "sexist cliches" are in French society. And CNN just covered the "filthy misogyny" directed at her:
http://www.lemonde.fr/big-browser/article/2017/05/11/les-critiques-contr... actually just reported on the 'filthy misogny' experienced by Brigitte Macron:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/12/europe/france-macron-wife-sexism/
LeMonde just ran a piece on how the ugly reactions to Brigitte Macron have exposed how deeply anchored "sexist cliches" are in French society. And CNN just covered the "filthy misogyny" directed at her:
http://www.lemonde.fr/big-browser/article/2017/05/11/les-critiques-contr... actually just reported on the 'filthy misogny' experienced by Brigitte Macron:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/12/europe/france-macron-wife-sexism/
3
It's easier to expose it as misogyny than have to explain the uncomfortable truth that what she did is also illegal in France and quite disgusting. He won because Le Pen is hated.
4
Mme. Macron reminds me of Jane Fonda. Gorgeous, charismatic, powerful, ageless and utterly attractive.
16
Um, excuse me, but I believe her name is Brigitte Trogneux.
6
"Nicolas Sarkozy, installed at the Élysée than he split up with his wife, Cécilia Ciganer". Wrong, Cécilia split up with him.
6
Does it not strike anyone as truly offensive that we saw exactly no articles about the age difference between Melania and Donald Trump when it is almost exactly the same, only in reverse?
24
No, it does not. They are both adults and make their own decisions. As do the Macrons, but theirs is a "man bites dog" story.
2
Over thirty years ago, I met the older (by nine years) woman who changed my life. As I wrote later on youngerlover.com, "Falling in love with an older woman was the best thing I ever did. I discovered what true love was and could no longer live without it." I understand the Macrons because I am still passionately in love with my lovely, sexy 74 year old wife. Don't wait for the culture to change; change it yourself. You might find the love of your life in the arms of a younger man--or an older woman.
15
30 years ago, you were 35 years old... not 15 years old.
2
America's fascination with this is going to be cute to watch, like we just found a new puppy. Leave it to an American man to try and explain it to us, Roger.
4
To paraphrase an old song, " it ain't nobody's business if they do"
7
"Liberator?" Sounds like she liberated him from his childhood.
5
Hallelujah!
4
I married a woman eleven years older, became a father and a RN. In Canada. American norms are not universally relevant or desired, but we defer to American power.
As a student of American history i am continually amazed why health care isn't a right, perhaps my American friends see selfishness and morality as synonymous.
As a student of American history i am continually amazed why health care isn't a right, perhaps my American friends see selfishness and morality as synonymous.
9
dear Canadian neighbor Bruce - we mourning and overwrought Americans are finding our moralistic neighbors' sermons tiresome.
1
Regardless of how and why they got together, they still are together after all these years, so none of that other stuff matters anymore. That's no small feat in a world where everybody looks down their noses at anything different from their own.
Personally, I don't care so much about her as I do to learn about what the experience has done for him. To break from convention such as that really forces a person to places when they find themselves alone and without others similar to relate to. To make it in the public spotlight as such I find pretty remarkable. Or maybe France really is a different world as compared to America, where my experiences were.
Personally, I don't care so much about her as I do to learn about what the experience has done for him. To break from convention such as that really forces a person to places when they find themselves alone and without others similar to relate to. To make it in the public spotlight as such I find pretty remarkable. Or maybe France really is a different world as compared to America, where my experiences were.
8
Here's a blast from the past--does the name Mary Kay Letourneau ring any bells?? Her story was tabloid gold for years. Mary Kay Letourneau was also a teacher who fell in love with Vili Fualaau, one of her students, when he was only 12 years old!!! There aren't enough characters to rehash the whole story in nauseating detail but I thought the love story of Emmanuel Macron and his hot cougar wife Brigitte sounded oddly similar to that one. So why are Roger Cohen and the bloggers declaring a jubilee over this weird May-December relationship complete with dancing and rejoicing?? Emmanuel Macron has a first rate Oedipus Complex--can't anyone else see that he married a surrogate mother figure??
17
Well, maybe Donald Trump married a surrogate daughter figure. So what?
6
Perhaps, but it's interesting you're not calling out the countless "women with daddy issues" married to men decades their senior, starting with our esteemed first lady. I think it's the double standard people are seeking to highlight when they discuss this in celebratory terms.
10
Hm, let me see. An adult having sex with a 12 year old, and an adult and a 15 year old drawn to each other, waiting until the younger one was and adult before starting a romantic/sexual relationship leading to what seems to be a solid marriage when the younger one is 29, lasting so far for 10 years and productive for both as individuals and as a couple.
You are right. I can't see the difference.
You are right. I can't see the difference.
5
Not Mark...
It is amazing how horribly patriarchal the comments are. That itself might explain why the US, in spite of it economic successes, is very backward on matters of human welfare, diversity and tolerance to adult choices. As a country US rates in rape, sexual harassment and sexual misconduct is high... because the American culture takes natural feelings, attractions, etc. between adults and pervert it...thereby perverting everything, and allowing hypocrisy and secrecy to prevail. And many in the US are stupid enough to project American nonsense on others. No wonder I find so many American men unattractive, stupid, pretentious and almost thuggish while they are super duper needy. Arrogant unself aware men, arrogant needy men and arrogant opinionated men are rarely attractive. American puritanism is hypocritical, and leads to perversions in thought and actions.
It is true Marcon was a teen when he fell hard for Ms Bridgette. It is true she was much older, married and with children. He pursued her, and was persistent. This is why his parents sent him off early to university far away, and Ms Bridgette herself encouraged the distance. They did not run off and do something right away. Only when he kept at it, even as an adult, did their relationship as two adults come to fruition. They actually postponed everything until they were sure about everything...That is maturity. Many comments on their marriage in the US are not.
It is amazing how horribly patriarchal the comments are. That itself might explain why the US, in spite of it economic successes, is very backward on matters of human welfare, diversity and tolerance to adult choices. As a country US rates in rape, sexual harassment and sexual misconduct is high... because the American culture takes natural feelings, attractions, etc. between adults and pervert it...thereby perverting everything, and allowing hypocrisy and secrecy to prevail. And many in the US are stupid enough to project American nonsense on others. No wonder I find so many American men unattractive, stupid, pretentious and almost thuggish while they are super duper needy. Arrogant unself aware men, arrogant needy men and arrogant opinionated men are rarely attractive. American puritanism is hypocritical, and leads to perversions in thought and actions.
It is true Marcon was a teen when he fell hard for Ms Bridgette. It is true she was much older, married and with children. He pursued her, and was persistent. This is why his parents sent him off early to university far away, and Ms Bridgette herself encouraged the distance. They did not run off and do something right away. Only when he kept at it, even as an adult, did their relationship as two adults come to fruition. They actually postponed everything until they were sure about everything...That is maturity. Many comments on their marriage in the US are not.
66
hhhmmm. what would I do if I was a 40 year old married woman with 3 children and had my 15 year old student 'pursue' me?
Your planet earth corner could be somewhere in Burgundy !
Love is love.
17
So says Humbert Humbert
1
A few months before I reach 60 years, I find myself marveling at some of the wonderful changes in how the barriers between waspy people like me and people of color, gay people, trans people and sexual acceptance has all changed for the better.
When I was a kid in the south, black people couldn't live where I lived, eat where I ate, or talk to white people without looking down. A gay friend my age from Alabama told me once how he prayed to Jesus as a teenager to take away his feelings for men, since he knew it was 'wrong'. When I was 18 I dated a model in her early 30's, but we had to do so secretly. Was I scarred by it? Hardly. Now I'm married to a woman 11 years younger, and step parenting a trans child transitioning to a male identity.
I think it's wondrous that even in the US, the acceptance of the differences in others has blossomed so, so much. I rue that not all of us are 'there' yet, but it sure seems inexorable. There are myriad influences that chip away at the barriers, from prominent examples like Macron, to small ones, like the courage of my stepson as he finds his way. It ain't easy, but ain't it all grand?
When I was a kid in the south, black people couldn't live where I lived, eat where I ate, or talk to white people without looking down. A gay friend my age from Alabama told me once how he prayed to Jesus as a teenager to take away his feelings for men, since he knew it was 'wrong'. When I was 18 I dated a model in her early 30's, but we had to do so secretly. Was I scarred by it? Hardly. Now I'm married to a woman 11 years younger, and step parenting a trans child transitioning to a male identity.
I think it's wondrous that even in the US, the acceptance of the differences in others has blossomed so, so much. I rue that not all of us are 'there' yet, but it sure seems inexorable. There are myriad influences that chip away at the barriers, from prominent examples like Macron, to small ones, like the courage of my stepson as he finds his way. It ain't easy, but ain't it all grand?
42
Madame Macron is a modern woman in a facet that Roger Cohen
has yet come to recognize.
has yet come to recognize.
3
This is a lovely story about a happy couple.
I will save my moral outrage for those people who do not believe that those who serve in the Congress and Senate who do not believe that their job is to do the hard work necessary to keep this country in a healthy condition. That goes for Trump, et al, as well
I will save my moral outrage for those people who do not believe that those who serve in the Congress and Senate who do not believe that their job is to do the hard work necessary to keep this country in a healthy condition. That goes for Trump, et al, as well
16
This column and the favorable comments are stunning. When this relationship started, Mr. Macron was in high school. The power dynamic between a high school student and his teacher are terribly skewed such that some would argue he could not consent to the relationship. I have no doubt that even the French would be troubled if the genders were reversed. Be glad that Le Pen did not win, but do not let that cloud the legitimate discussion of the troubling start of this relationship. While candor and openness about sexuality are laudable, laughing off, even admiring, a relationship between an adult and a child as mere passion is not.
9
She was not his teacher. And they did not have a physical relationship. READ the story. They married when he was 29. Get over it.
36
Thanpk you. I've already written this twice in the comments. And I am not the only one. Roger Cohen should have pointed out both in his Op Ed. It was in the news article yesterday. But people just comment without reading. Roger Cohen should have been aware of this and added these facts to his Op Ed.
3
We will never know if they had "sex" but they were lovers and his parents were so upset about the relationship that they moved their son to another school to get him away from Brigitte. They also asked her to stop the relationship and she refused their request. Do you really think that it is acceptable for a teacher (male or female) to seduce a 15 yr. old in the teacher's school ? Is it acceptable for any adult to seduce any 15 yr. old ?
1
Yes indeed, sure there is an abyss between us (French) and you (American) concerning the approach of sexuality but too about the breach of privacy. But we must avoid the generalities, it remains in France, people who are still very conventional and very conservative but I confess it is rather rare.
It is true too if we do a comparison between the couple Donald Trump, his wife Melania and the couple Emmanuel Macron and Brigitte Macron, when I watch Trump's couple, I have the sentiment that Melania Trump is bored. While, we see Brigitte Macron like a committed woman with her husband and at least more smiling. We forget the difference in age between them.
It is true too if we do a comparison between the couple Donald Trump, his wife Melania and the couple Emmanuel Macron and Brigitte Macron, when I watch Trump's couple, I have the sentiment that Melania Trump is bored. While, we see Brigitte Macron like a committed woman with her husband and at least more smiling. We forget the difference in age between them.
52
desole, Jean-Michel. Melania was not Trump's student and she was not 15 years old. Même en France, ce n'est pas légal. C'est la corruption d'un mineur. Personne n'a déposé de plainte contre elle.
1
I don't consider these people saints or heroes. I have a personal preference for dating people my own age. However, I celebrate that this sexy, handsome, successful man is able to subvert the sexist and patriarchal paradigm that insists on female youth as the only standard of beauty for women and "success" in men, and create a new paradigm that redefines women's beauty and value, and men's "masculinity." A man like that, I would guess, would tend to possess the personal qualities necessary for a truly equal and healthy partnership with a woman--far more than a man enacting the tired cliche of collecting young, beautiful women and discarding them when they've outlived their usefulness, in favor of a younger model. *Yawn.*
27
Which couple is more likely to be enjoying their old age together. I believe that the Macrons are soul-mates who have endured much criticism while the Donnie is applauded for leaving his wives when they become too old. Melania does not seem like his soul mate and he professes through his actions and speech not to have any respect for women of any age. So the winner are the Macrons. Melania will be better off without him. I am sure she will get what she is looking for --lots of money. Can't wait for her tell-all book. Oh maybe she signed a nondisclosure agreement too. It is being audited.
23
Aside from the speculative vein about coupledom: a president who is capable of respecting the savvy of an intelligent grown woman (and who is, needless to add, if older in literal years, clearly attractive in her own right) is a president who will not seek to dismantle maternity care, abortion rights, and hardwon gender equity laws and other rights and freedoms while in office. (Note the different situation in the U.S., where the age difference between president and first lady is more conventional and under the radar.)
As comments of "willet" in Brooklyn have very aptly noted, there is a hard right in France to contend with. I hope the Macrons will weather the meanspirited censure of rightist circles with aplomb.
As comments of "willet" in Brooklyn have very aptly noted, there is a hard right in France to contend with. I hope the Macrons will weather the meanspirited censure of rightist circles with aplomb.
25
So nice to know of a competent country where people are not obsessed with their neighbor's private business. Unlike the conservatives here in the US who absolutely obsess over who's marrying who, and who's doing what with their bodies. Tall fences make good neighbors.
12
Brigitte Macron kissing her husband's hand as he held her hand during his eloquent and dignified victory speech at the Louvre was one of the loveliest tender gestures I have seen between a politician and his wife since....ah, yes -Barack and Michelle Obama. (sigh)
58
Thank you for reminding us of the joy of seeing the Obamas together.
2
Funny thing...The age difference between the Macrons is just about the same as that between Donald and Melania Trump. Why is it that older man/younger woman relationships tend to be more acceptable than the other way around? This isn't exactly "Harold And Maude" we're talking about.
7
Even to be delighted for the Macrons is an exercise of judgment to which one is not entitled, at least to express. So why am I impressed?
1
Sounds great Rog. I too am a semi- Francophile. However, in the area of general pomposity they really do excel. Have you been to Lucas Carton. 3 stars for rudeness, pomposity and generalkly unacceptable behavior. All that for only about $700 for dinner. Come on, parts of France are exquisite and thent here are the others like anyplace else.
2
I must question the judgement of anyone willing to pay $700 for a meal, regardless of their available assets. Besides, it's not necessary to go all the way to France to foolishly throw away money. The people you would encounter in such an establishment anywhere would hardly represent the culture of that country at large
13
Very cliché comments about French people who have enough diversity not to merit this.
8
Jimmy Breslin, who set the gold standard for investigative reporting along with Murray KEMPTON, Jack Newfield and others, and who was a sports reporter before he started covering politics and organized crime, always made it a point to visit the losers' dressing room after a game, not the winners. This is what Mr. Cohen should have done following the French election. He should have focused on gaining a sit down with Marine le Pen, as well as her father, and all those poor folks in AMIENS who were present when Macron sold their jobs down the river and Whirlpool decided to "delocaliser!"In one of the few times that EB has published my comments, I wrote about how RC was out to lunch on so many issues during his stint as Paris correspondent, namely the social engineering beginning in 1960's when working class folks were forced out of Paris centre by the wealthy to dreary, perilous HLM's " en banlieue!" When Menilmontant was destroyed in favor of housing units for the "enrichis!" RC was writing about APOLLINAIRE.Hunch that Mr. Cohen only feels at ease with folks from his socio economic class, elites, and is "mal a l'aise " with the poor and down and out who would have supported Poujade back in the day, and now support le Pen. Article is so politically correct it's insipid.Charlotte Curtis could have written more in depth articles about the French election, and her field was fashion.RC must learn that best reporters go where others fear to tread, and show derring do..
3
I do not think the choice of marrying a woman so many years older than oneself is normal behavior for a man. Being gay, being bisexual , while those not the usual male sexual behavior they are normal behavior. Marrying a woman so many years older than you is just plain odd. What could this man really have going on in his head? Is he really just asexual, which I think can be considered rare but normal behavior.
4
And Roger: Don't forget that "Cinq a Sept" works out pretty well too! "Vive la diference!" "Vive La France!"
3
Finally, a topic more interesting to put down as shameful than Trump. Thanks for the respite, Times.
4
How ironic. As I half read comments on this article and half do work on my computer, my 18 year old son is watching reruns of Entourage.
In this episode, Ari's wife has left him and he goes on his first date. With a 20 year old. He laments his divorce but she reassures him she understands. Her parents were also married 20 years and got divorced last year.
She does not understand he has invited her to dinner so has eaten and suggests they do shots. Relaxed, they go back to her apartment where he learns she has a roommate from whom she can borrow a condom. Ari never makes it up to the apartment because the roommate banging on his car window, warning the young woman not to touch his condoms makes Ari cringe. As he is leaving the young woman assures Ari he will get his groove back. "Like Stella" Ari quips. The woman responds "Who?"
Ari calls Dana Gordon- his equal, same age. He tells her he is lonely and just wants a mature woman to talk to and asks if he can come over. He does and they reminisce, connect and eventually make love.
That is the essence of celebrating mature women. Not this tale of a mother going after a child and all the inequalities and worship that entails. (The story is especially troubling if Macron is bisexual because he would have been more delicate than the average teen boy - making him more ripe for a predator. )
And it is this version of relationships and respecting women that I am glad my 18 year old son is seeing.
In this episode, Ari's wife has left him and he goes on his first date. With a 20 year old. He laments his divorce but she reassures him she understands. Her parents were also married 20 years and got divorced last year.
She does not understand he has invited her to dinner so has eaten and suggests they do shots. Relaxed, they go back to her apartment where he learns she has a roommate from whom she can borrow a condom. Ari never makes it up to the apartment because the roommate banging on his car window, warning the young woman not to touch his condoms makes Ari cringe. As he is leaving the young woman assures Ari he will get his groove back. "Like Stella" Ari quips. The woman responds "Who?"
Ari calls Dana Gordon- his equal, same age. He tells her he is lonely and just wants a mature woman to talk to and asks if he can come over. He does and they reminisce, connect and eventually make love.
That is the essence of celebrating mature women. Not this tale of a mother going after a child and all the inequalities and worship that entails. (The story is especially troubling if Macron is bisexual because he would have been more delicate than the average teen boy - making him more ripe for a predator. )
And it is this version of relationships and respecting women that I am glad my 18 year old son is seeing.
5
American sex obsessions seem to be incurable. Brigitte Macron's age becomes a topic of discussion, but the yawning age gap between Donald and the wife, however, is barely a media blip.
And this is how journalism becomes voyeuristic spectacle. In this particular case, The appearance of male admiration for Brigitte Macron couches, not to far below its rather thin veneer, an inherent disdain for the female.
And this is how journalism becomes voyeuristic spectacle. In this particular case, The appearance of male admiration for Brigitte Macron couches, not to far below its rather thin veneer, an inherent disdain for the female.
33
yes this is justyou. you apparently do not know the true context. even in france, what she did is illegal. i do not envy her. on the contrary, the moment i see her - the words PERVERT and DISGUSTING come to mind.
A lovely column, and very apt. But I would remind Roger Cohen that there are more Frances than are accounted for in his somewhat rose-tinted view. There is, in particular, still a strong, narrow-minded, generally Catholic right that the Front National decided not to play up to this time (though it has certainly done so in the past and at which it still winked at a lot this time, especially by insinuating that the Marcrons' marriage must be asexual and that he is secretly gay). Had his sleaze not caught up with him, it is very possible that François Fillon, who is firmly in this camp (why are the ones who are most censorious of how other people enjoy life almost always the ones who get caught up in scandals?), might have gone to the second round instead of Macron, propelled in part by these very votes. Had he then gone on to win, and had his right-wing Les Républicains obtained a majority in the Assembly, gay marriage and many of the other freedoms that are celebrated by Roger Cohen would have come under threat. There is a lot of censure and mockery of the Macron couple in rightist circles, and it's not going away anytime soon just because he won. They're a minority, for sure (most French are strongly supportive of gay marriage, for example, though less sure about gay adoption rights), but hardly a small one.
25
Shades of Molière in the idea of being cuckolded by the adolescent future president of the Republic. I have the most sympathy for her ex.
7
Thanks for the column Roger.
The Macrons are an example of lasting love without ageism and sexism, refreshing especially as we watch the US go back to the era of "Mad Men" where women are third class citizens.
The Macrons are an example of lasting love without ageism and sexism, refreshing especially as we watch the US go back to the era of "Mad Men" where women are third class citizens.
19
Cool. If they get along so well, and they seem to, all the better. Seem a nice couple to me. What does anyone know really, to judge a couple from the outside?
17
Might be more that we don't like Newt Gingrich.
I was 28 in 1975 and he was 16; it's only occurred to me in recent years I could have been arrested (nothing predatory about it at all). As a 70 year old widow, I still date men 5-10 years younger than me, and am pretty sure I could keep up with some even younger.
Aging is such an an individual thing; long live the example of the Macrons.
Aging is such an an individual thing; long live the example of the Macrons.
86
Amen, Sister!!!
7
...
BOTTOM LINE: They look happy together.
BOTTOM LINE: They look happy together.
16
Hhmm, was their relationship "legal" when it began?
Every country has "age of consent" laws and they can vary quite widely. For most of humankind's existence on this planet, once a "child" was able to bear or father their own child, they were considered an adult for all purposes (you know, that 'rite-of-passage' at puberty thing).
Nowadays, we consider ourselves more "civilized" and, so, teenagers remain "children" which has all sorts of unintended negative consequences that we refuse to discuss (hence, hypocrisy and an almost titillated voyeurism when the topic turns to teens and sex).
But, frankly, I think the unintended consequences of or infantilization of all sorts of different groups are far worse. And, there, it seems the French are right alongside the Americans in passing law after law after law to "protect" this, that or the other group.
Big Daddy Government will soon topple from the weight of everyone wanting always to be "protected" every-where and every-time no matter the cost in dollars (or Euros) or the cost in what it means to be human where taking risks used to be a large part of the equation.
Every country has "age of consent" laws and they can vary quite widely. For most of humankind's existence on this planet, once a "child" was able to bear or father their own child, they were considered an adult for all purposes (you know, that 'rite-of-passage' at puberty thing).
Nowadays, we consider ourselves more "civilized" and, so, teenagers remain "children" which has all sorts of unintended negative consequences that we refuse to discuss (hence, hypocrisy and an almost titillated voyeurism when the topic turns to teens and sex).
But, frankly, I think the unintended consequences of or infantilization of all sorts of different groups are far worse. And, there, it seems the French are right alongside the Americans in passing law after law after law to "protect" this, that or the other group.
Big Daddy Government will soon topple from the weight of everyone wanting always to be "protected" every-where and every-time no matter the cost in dollars (or Euros) or the cost in what it means to be human where taking risks used to be a large part of the equation.
4
big daddy government as you call it is an american perversion of what the state can or should do.
other countries have civilized--at a small % of the cost--health care systems, reasonable gun laws, higher life expectancies, lower infant mortality rates, longer vacations, a fraction of homicides per capita, less coarse public discourse, a higher % of people who vote in national elections and a more laid back live and let live mentality.
and so on.....
other countries have civilized--at a small % of the cost--health care systems, reasonable gun laws, higher life expectancies, lower infant mortality rates, longer vacations, a fraction of homicides per capita, less coarse public discourse, a higher % of people who vote in national elections and a more laid back live and let live mentality.
and so on.....
8
Love you, Emmanuel Macron! I admire a man who can handle marriage to a mature woman instead of a bimbo.
26
Being a young woman does not automatically make one a "bimbo." (and shouldn't women avoid using such anti-woman terms?) I'll use your term to say that being of "a certain age" does not automatically convey anything any more than being young automatically conveys anything. There are plenty of - what is "Brigitte's age? 64? - there are plenty of 64 year old "bimbos." I think the women here who are all agog over this marriage are reflecting the pain that being an older women in the U.S. (but not only in the U.S.!) brings, simply for the fact of being an older woman, and so they delight at the implied antithesis of those conditions. It has often been written about by many women. I think the commenter here who said that if "Brigitte" were not pretty, didn't do so many things to appear young (hair color, teeth, etc.) that there would be an entirely different reaction. Age is one source of societal oppression and marginalization, but not looking young (or even the façade of looking young) is probably an even stronger one. It is the older women who also look their age whom we should all adore because they are real and they are themselves and they are not trying to be a simulacrum of their daughters or granddaughters!
2
If Ms. Marcon was plain unattractive or not as sexy, this would be an entirely different narrative or story.
10
but she isn't, so THIS is the narrative/story.
3
Please Mr. Cohn: As the Times go-to-guy on all things French, you must know that the voters there think- and openly say- that Macron is if not openly gay then he is at least a switch-hitter. And they didn't care at all. His only shame in French eyes is that he was a Rothschild banker. What has really impressed me is how the French press has respected his privacy in this matter . It will be interesting to see if the paparazzi follow him to any clandestine rendezvous like they did when they followed Hollande on his scooter. You're right about France: You go for the food and the beauty and stay for the civility of their culture
11
The reporters in this country are too busy with the trump twitter tantrums, too bad, they should start checking out his.......ah, and her private relationships. After all, they're the same age diff, and they both have QUITE THE CHECKERED PASTS. Good idea, thanks.
1
It has been reported by this paper that Trump's wife worked illegally in NYC while here on a tourist visa and then lied about it on her application for residency, which, of course, makes her an illegal immigrant.
1
Of course any parent of a high schooler getting involved with a teacher would be appalled. But sometimes the situation doesn't fit the conventions.
But contrary to some commenters, there is nothing to suggest that she was being a predator. They bonded over writing a play together. She said it was like working with Mozart. (UK INdependent). They are still together 24 years later, and by all accounts very well matched.
Celebrate the love that's strong enough to defy the conventions!
And vive la France!
But contrary to some commenters, there is nothing to suggest that she was being a predator. They bonded over writing a play together. She said it was like working with Mozart. (UK INdependent). They are still together 24 years later, and by all accounts very well matched.
Celebrate the love that's strong enough to defy the conventions!
And vive la France!
54
Beautiful article, I think Mr Cohen captures the spirit of France perfectly and that is why I consider France perhaps the most civil country in the world. Most of the negative comments miss the point because they obviously come from readers with limited exposure to the world, to history, to reading and to travel.
52
Bien dit!
11
I am Italian and wonder how Italy and Italian men would handle such a story. I think Italian women would celebrate it. I don't know if Italian men are secure enough to handle such a relationship. They wait a long time to get married because Mama takes care of them even when they have their own apartment. They seem to be attracted to younger women.
It would be interesting to learn how other countries handle an older woman/younger man relationship.
It would be interesting to learn how other countries handle an older woman/younger man relationship.
Have some of the readers of NYT forgotten that Hollywood classic " Summer of 42". That was pure carnal desire. Here at least it looks like Platonic love. Some thing pure, divine love which only french can think of and admire. I salute the couple!
7
I have no idea if Roger Cohen has children. I do, including a son who was recently 15. If a 39-year-old married teacher had seduced him I would have been glad to call on the authorities and see her (or him, no gender bias!) hauled to jail.
She's not some symbol of feminist attainment. She is 'une predateur sexuelle.' And, by the way, you can paint her as some symbol of French savoir faire, but what kind of stunted, perverted 39-year old woman finds a 15-year old attractive? Quelle atroce.
She's not some symbol of feminist attainment. She is 'une predateur sexuelle.' And, by the way, you can paint her as some symbol of French savoir faire, but what kind of stunted, perverted 39-year old woman finds a 15-year old attractive? Quelle atroce.
40
there's no proof he was underage when they first had sex.
you can believe or not believe, but they've said he was of legal age the first time.
you can believe or not believe, but they've said he was of legal age the first time.
7
HE was the one who ran after her. And 15 years old is the age of legal sexual majority in France.
13
I doubt very much that she was being a sexual predator. From the UK Independent:
She recalls being in awe of his “exceptional intelligence, a way of thinking that I had never seen before” and said that when she arrived at La Provence, “all the teachers were buzzing about Emmanuel”.
The unlikely pair grew close when they co-authored a play. Ms Trogneux told a friend years later: “You know, the day when we wrote the play together, I had a feeling I was working with Mozart.
“The writing became an excuse. I felt that we had always known each other.”
She recalls being in awe of his “exceptional intelligence, a way of thinking that I had never seen before” and said that when she arrived at La Provence, “all the teachers were buzzing about Emmanuel”.
The unlikely pair grew close when they co-authored a play. Ms Trogneux told a friend years later: “You know, the day when we wrote the play together, I had a feeling I was working with Mozart.
“The writing became an excuse. I felt that we had always known each other.”
57
So she was "liberated" from a marriage with 3 children. How good of Monsieur Marcon. Why are we celebrating this?
My wife is ten years older than I. That shouldn't be noteworthy. But wrecking marriages with children- that's nothing to be proud of! Couldn't he have pursued a single person, like any decent human being would?
My wife is ten years older than I. That shouldn't be noteworthy. But wrecking marriages with children- that's nothing to be proud of! Couldn't he have pursued a single person, like any decent human being would?
11
he didn't 'wreck' the marriage. she made a decision based on, i'm sure, several different things. if her marriage was ideal/perfect i doubt marcon would've had much success.
11
Maybe she didn't love her husband anymore. Do you think she should have stayed with a man she did not love? Life is too short to be miserable.
1
What I find truly amazing about this article is, this life style is happening in a predominately Catholic Country & by Government Leaders & no one gives a dam.I;m sure the devoice rate is far lower than ours.We must find out how we can keep the Church out of our bedrooms. Perhaps we can convince Macron & his wife to migrate to the US when his term is over & run for President.
14
France is not Catholic predominantly. Remeber Calvin? He was French. If all, French are most agnostics in general.
france has a low % of people who attend church. the usa is an outlier among western democracies with ostentatious shows of religion expected from its leaders.
also, for all its ostentation, it has the most unchristian policies.
also, for all its ostentation, it has the most unchristian policies.
14
not only keep the church out of our bedrooms but Congress too.
2
In the US, we prosecute and jail teachers who start affairs with their 15 year old students. We don't swoon and say how sophisticated they are. If this were an older male teacher and a young female student, would you still feel the same way?
11
That's not when their sexual relationship began. Macron's family - and Brigitte - insisted that he transfer to a boarding school and not see Brigitte until after graduation. He did transfer, and didn't see her - but continued to pursue her by phone. Their romance did not begin until he had graduated and was of legal age. It was consensual. End of inquiry.
65
Good Reason,
The fact that I personally disapprove of Brigitte's involvement with a student, doesn't make it wrong for this particular couple, if the outcome is happiness.
The fact that I personally disapprove of Brigitte's involvement with a student, doesn't make it wrong for this particular couple, if the outcome is happiness.
6
if the French do it, it must be right according to Mr. Cohen's simplistic reasoning. A 15 year old being seduced by a 40ish year old in a position of power and authority is not right. It is wonderful that it seems to have worked out for the Macrons - but for the vast majority of 15 year olds - male and female - relationships like this do not end well. Children (and 15 year olds are children) deserve to be protected by society's laws and morals from the adults put in charge of them. Cohen should make better use of his column than being an apologist for child abuse.
16
Ambrose,
Cohen isn't apologizing for Brigitte, he is just pointing out the difference between the French outlook on sex & our church driven prejudices.
Cohen isn't apologizing for Brigitte, he is just pointing out the difference between the French outlook on sex & our church driven prejudices.
19
you make assumptions and statements that ignore what they say happened.
and, believe it or not, not everybody thinks the worst of everybody.
and, believe it or not, not everybody thinks the worst of everybody.
4
i enjoy the hell out of europe. i've been more than 40 times with more than half including france. 17 of the trips have been france only and another six included one other country. never on a tour.
i've also been to a bunch of other countries and lived in asia for a number of years.
when people ask me why i travel to france so often--usually they say paris--i tell them, 'because it's where i feel most human'.....
italy and spain make me feel the same way, but paris is exceptional.
i've also been to a bunch of other countries and lived in asia for a number of years.
when people ask me why i travel to france so often--usually they say paris--i tell them, 'because it's where i feel most human'.....
italy and spain make me feel the same way, but paris is exceptional.
51
Thank goodness. I wish I were French. I have been fighting ageism, since I am 67 and have turned back my birthdate 10 years on everything except for IRS, work and the doctor. All my boyfriends have been 16 to 8 years younger. I'm trying not to be prejudiced myself, but every man I have dated over 60 acts ancient. Unfortunately, my current beau has no idea I am older. I haven't deliberately hidden it, but I know from his questions he thinks we are the same age. All of his previous relationships have been the reverse. I hide it because of his comments such as what do you expect, he or she is almost 70! After 50, your genetics, health, and general well being really branch out. One person at 60 is another person's 80.
I am so happy for the French example. Practically, women live longer than men, and if we are youthful and in good health, why would we not want a younger partner, and what difference does it make? Unfortunately, for the most part, the US is still so old-fashioned and set in its ways, centered around the religious patriarchy. Viva la France!
I am so happy for the French example. Practically, women live longer than men, and if we are youthful and in good health, why would we not want a younger partner, and what difference does it make? Unfortunately, for the most part, the US is still so old-fashioned and set in its ways, centered around the religious patriarchy. Viva la France!
129
leonora...i hope your embellishing doesn't get caught. be a big sense of betrayal.
i turned 67 last month. i've had relationships with women born from 1941-1975 from 12 different countries.
age has never been an issue other than some cultural references plus some different attitudes from other countries.
i turned 67 last month. i've had relationships with women born from 1941-1975 from 12 different countries.
age has never been an issue other than some cultural references plus some different attitudes from other countries.
6
I am 66. I wish that I could effectively conceal my age from prospective employers, because I cannot find a new job despite the fact that I am well credentialed, healthy, and do not look like I am in any way old or infirm. I started a small business and teach part time, but these do not pay my bills. I have to say at this point that ageism and it's destroying the life of me and my husband, because I was the major wager. Our scale-down plan required that both of us work full-time into our 70s, as had our parents. I never even considered for a minute that with such excellent credentials and experience, I would be barred from the workplace.
I am becoming quite embittered. I want to work. Frankly, I want everyone who has blocked my way to restored security due to their stupid prejudices to roast in Hades. No sympathy, no charity. If you are reading this, and are one of them – including my former employer – know well that the Court of Karma sees all and sits 24/7.
I am becoming quite embittered. I want to work. Frankly, I want everyone who has blocked my way to restored security due to their stupid prejudices to roast in Hades. No sympathy, no charity. If you are reading this, and are one of them – including my former employer – know well that the Court of Karma sees all and sits 24/7.
27
Leonora - I'm 42 going on 27. I have a full-time job, but I also DJ and run a couple of nights at local bars. I feel your pain - it's tough meeting people your age. I actually turned my age back 6 years on my dating profiles - but I do state in the details that I am actually 42. I do think that you should discuss the age thing with your paramour.
2
As a Mom of a young son, I am having trouble with how they met. In America she will be in jail for a statutory rape. How is what she did okay? Why are people celebrating how they met? I am so confused.
9
the stories have specifically said they didn't consummate the relationship until he was of age.
you can believe it or not, but that's their story.
also, he was sent away by his parents to try to make him 'reasonable'
it is possible they're telling the truth.
she was well aware, i'm sure, that having sex with a student would've cost her her job, her reputation and possible legal trouble.
finally, it seems to have worked out. her kids are fine and i'm assuming his parents are proud of him.
might be a good idea to save your tut tuts for another case.
you can believe it or not, but that's their story.
also, he was sent away by his parents to try to make him 'reasonable'
it is possible they're telling the truth.
she was well aware, i'm sure, that having sex with a student would've cost her her job, her reputation and possible legal trouble.
finally, it seems to have worked out. her kids are fine and i'm assuming his parents are proud of him.
might be a good idea to save your tut tuts for another case.
9
She did not have any intimate contact with him while he was in school; not until after he turned 18, when it is no longer illegal. There is no statutory rape. She did nothing wrong.
22
Who said they had sex. She seems like a very loving person and maybe they were just soul-mates. When did they get married. Don't assume and fear the worse. Maybe their love grew over the years. The article states she joined him in his work in 2014.
12
The private lives of politicians are important only insofar as they exemplify the cultural mores of their countries. The American Puritanism, exemplified by the Pences, stands in sharp contrast to the wonderful example of Macron and his lovely wife, who proves that women, if we try, can be beautiful and desirable at any age. Incidentally, I don't find the Charlie Hebdo cartoon in any way sexist. It's funny - and who knows, it may be prophetic. Perhaps Macron can work a miracle and restore the health of the EU - and perhaps with the help of science, his wife, if she so chooses, can have another baby. Women almost her age have given birth, demonstrating the unlimited possibilities of biotechnology.
11
Both conservative and liberal comments are amusing today. I like the poetry of it ... it's the ultimate twist. Is it disturbing that a person falls in love with a 40 year old teacher? Perhaps. Is it a good idea? Not usually, but in this case it was. This is the danger of moral judgment ... our mores are meant to guide us in doing the right thing, except when they don't. Do we then judge by outcomes? Is there any doubt now that this was a good match? Would Macron be President of France if not for his Brigitte? As the French say, "C'est la vie".
34
He wasn't just "a person" at 15. He was jail bait.
4
No, he wasn't. He was in love and they waited until he was older and had his baccalauréat.
6
He was apparently an ardent and unstoppable pursuer.
1
Good for them, seriously. Bon Chance.
14
Ah America and its puritanical closet society!! Those comments about their age difference and how it started when he was fifteen! First of all he was the one who fell for her and who pursued her. Second, they have been together for twenty years. Third, they are happy and are in a engaged and committed marriage. What is there to be disgusted about? Ah America you can keep your Bible and your guns for all I care. Vive la France et vive la Liberté!
172
She was in a committed marriage when she fell for Marcon, so I don't see your point as to bringing up the "happiness" of their current commitment. Obviously the sanctity of marriage has little value to them.
1
Exactly. They do not care about the "Sanctity" of the amrriage because, in a modern society that does not exist. Good for them.
2
"Obviously the sanctity of marriage has little value to them." To the extent that this empty phrase "sanctity of marriage", matters Strazewski's statement would also apply to those in the 42-45% of US marriages that end in divorce.
Perhaps Strazewski would suggest that unhappily married people put more value on the sanctity of their relationship that their happiness.
Perhaps Strazewski would suggest that unhappily married people put more value on the sanctity of their relationship that their happiness.
1
The horror. This poor man continues to be dominated and abused by a horrible sexual predator. Must be some kind of Stocklholm syndrome. This is how we would view it in the US. While" she has said they did not have a “carnal” relationship when he was in high school ", what is meant by "carnal". Even French kissing would have branded her a sex offender and him a victim.
11
So-called "French kissing" is carnal. Touching someone can be carnal under the right circumstances. Carnal and erotic are twinned.
1
If not for domination and abuse, there wouldn't be any rich people. Try thinking about things beyond mere sex. As a student it may mean you're still young. If so, for your information there is way more to life than just sex, hard as that may be to believe. Be patient and you'll see, if you're lucky.
And in the united states, if the female drama teacher had anything to do with her teenage student, she would be arrested.
9
Just a thought from an old woman, here: A man with 24 years of experience less than my nearly 80 would bore me to death. He couldn't have read as many books; couldn't have been as many places; couldn't have been through what I've been through.
I remember being 39. No 15-year-old kid would have attracted me. Nothing to do morals or appropriateness or what others think. It's grown-up brain versus little guy's.
I remember being 39. No 15-year-old kid would have attracted me. Nothing to do morals or appropriateness or what others think. It's grown-up brain versus little guy's.
48
As someone who has raised sons....I remember when they were 15. (They are adults now). They were smelly goofballs, who were scatterbrained, obsessed with video games -- incapable of taking out the trash or walking the dog -- I barely trusted them to get driver's licenses at 16!
A 15 year old boy is not as mature as a 13 year old girl, for cripes sake.
The idea of an ADULT WOMAN my age having an affair with a 15 year old boy is appalling -- it is clearly statutory rape and abuse.
I am 24 years older than my oldest son. So sorry, folks -- for all your lefty "acceptance of anything" -- I say "EW" and I stand by that.
A 15 year old boy is not as mature as a 13 year old girl, for cripes sake.
The idea of an ADULT WOMAN my age having an affair with a 15 year old boy is appalling -- it is clearly statutory rape and abuse.
I am 24 years older than my oldest son. So sorry, folks -- for all your lefty "acceptance of anything" -- I say "EW" and I stand by that.
3
At 15, as a lycee student, Macron was studying theatre, philosophy, piano and advanced mathematics. He was not playing video games.
And there was no affair going on.
And there was no affair going on.
17
They didn't have an affair when he was 15, nothing in the article says that. That had become unacceptable in France 20-25 years ago, too. I'm not too sure of the details because I don't care. She was a teacher at his high school, and they either never lost each other from view, or got back in contact later when he was an adult.
5
So the French have something to teach us about the value of sex education in schools. Are the Republicans listening? The Democrats? The religious institutions? As that songwriter might say, When will they ever learn?
10
The U.S. still hasn't experienced " The Enlightenment" went it comes to sexual issues. It's especially true for adolescents. who need nuanced education on sexual realities. When it comes to sex we still wear the "Scarlet Letter" Hester Prynne wore, the only difference being our scarlet letter stands for "asinine", for our failure to educate about this seminal issue.
9
Don't they have a "Focus on the Family" over there? What's wrong with those people?
2
Why did these "Christians" vote for such an immoral man as Trump who wants to deprive invalids of food and 24 million Americans of health insurance. European countries would never allow that to happen to their citizens. So much for the Golden Rule.
3
Let's see what our leader tweets. We may return to "freedom fries."
4
Pourquoi pas?
Trump's behavoir and the sexual harassement claims against him would have turned off French voters all the same.
Trump's behavoir and the sexual harassement claims against him would have turned off French voters all the same.
5
As a Franco-American familiar with both cultures I've often chuckled at the different mind sets when it comes to sex and politicians' private lives. The Macrons, too, are not really for us to comment on or are any of our business. But since everyone is talking about it, in celebratory tones, I will add that as a mother I find this relationship to be very troubling. It's more than wrong for a 40-something woman to encourage and take advantage of a teenager's infatuation. I don't believe their claims that they didn't consummate the relationship until later, etc. So what this is, is actually a crime, called statutory rape.
7
You lost your "Frenchness". You should only care about your son and not two adults who are happy together. Judge not.
13
" It's more than wrong for a 40-something woman to encourage and take advantage of a teenager's infatuation."
Precisely.
Leave out statutory rape, however. Your point is stronger without it. Although I agree with you, I doubt they only became physical when he was over 18. For a long time she would not answer that and is only addressing it now. She also told his parents, before they changed his school, that she could not promise to stay away from him.
Precisely.
Leave out statutory rape, however. Your point is stronger without it. Although I agree with you, I doubt they only became physical when he was over 18. For a long time she would not answer that and is only addressing it now. She also told his parents, before they changed his school, that she could not promise to stay away from him.
2
Judith and Daisy--neither of you believe that the Macrons' relationship was consummated until he was of age. Stating your beliefs doesn't make them true.
1
"Liberating" does not exist in our vocabulary. If only we used it and practiced more often we would be a happier people.. Vive la France!
8
Let's think ... which will be more useful?
The French got a trophy husband to be their President. We got a trophy wife to be our First Lady.
The French got a trophy husband to be their President. We got a trophy wife to be our First Lady.
5
You can't call a soul mate a trophy. Melania is a trophy, but the Macrons are soul mates.
1
I imagine it was the other way around. It cannot be any more treacherous than navigating ANY relationship, though.
This first French couple is thinking and behaving outside the box.
Love is ageless and this is a profound demonstration .
Together they will do great things for their country .
Vive la France !
Love is ageless and this is a profound demonstration .
Together they will do great things for their country .
Vive la France !
18
American puritanical notions of what sex and marriage should be collide headlong with reality and create conflict where none need exist. Life (and love) are messy, and the more we try to pretend it isn't the more conflict we create. Kudo's to the French for their laissez-faire attitude toward people's love lives. Ironically we seem to have given Trump a pass when it came to his undeniably messy love life. Now iff we could just keep politicians like Pence, McConnell and Ryan out of ours, we could make this country a better place.
26
No worries! She looks fabulous, and after a year in office, he will look older than her, and she will still look great!
21
The French are so worldly. French food is delicious, the wines are divine, their clothing is tres chic and their attitude is so sophisticated.
Can you even imagine congress with this. Congress would be conducting a hearing on their marriage. Viva La France.
Can you even imagine congress with this. Congress would be conducting a hearing on their marriage. Viva La France.
16
In French it's "Vive la France".
3
Oh dear, obviously your impressions about France are just from the TV.
Nobody cares, really.
But Roger Cohen is looking for distractions from the last show in his homeland. We understand that anything would do : Mrs Macron, the burkini, …, whatever !
But Roger Cohen is looking for distractions from the last show in his homeland. We understand that anything would do : Mrs Macron, the burkini, …, whatever !
3
“If I were 20 years older than my wife, nobody would have thought for a single second that I couldn’t be”
I don't care about another person's partner, but let's not pretend that it's the same as if the man would be 25 yrs older. It's not the same due to evolutionary reasons, and I doubt that the past 40 yrs changed much in this regard.
Besides a few other fundamental things (like eating,sleeping) reproduction is a basic need encoded in our survival mechanism. A 64 yr old guy can father children with a 35 yrs old women, meanwhile the other way around is impossible. This is how we evolved. Therefore it doesn't matter how much you would like it, it's not the same thing, even if its unfair.
My GF is 5 yrs older than me, I'm 33 she is 38, both of us are professionals, busy with our careers. Now we are in a hurry to marry and start a family. The reason behind it: her fertility is continuously declining and our chances of having children will be slimmer and slimmer in the future. Life is not fair even if one writes a nice editorial claiming that fairness is achievable.
I don't care about another person's partner, but let's not pretend that it's the same as if the man would be 25 yrs older. It's not the same due to evolutionary reasons, and I doubt that the past 40 yrs changed much in this regard.
Besides a few other fundamental things (like eating,sleeping) reproduction is a basic need encoded in our survival mechanism. A 64 yr old guy can father children with a 35 yrs old women, meanwhile the other way around is impossible. This is how we evolved. Therefore it doesn't matter how much you would like it, it's not the same thing, even if its unfair.
My GF is 5 yrs older than me, I'm 33 she is 38, both of us are professionals, busy with our careers. Now we are in a hurry to marry and start a family. The reason behind it: her fertility is continuously declining and our chances of having children will be slimmer and slimmer in the future. Life is not fair even if one writes a nice editorial claiming that fairness is achievable.
7
Unlike much of human history, these days humanity is endangered much more by too much procreation than too little. The world would be much better off if it had 1/4 the current population.
14
You could always adopt. Since your girlfriend waited so long, having children was not a priority. Aren't you lucky she waited for the "perfect" partner?
5
Dear Johann, you said it was easy for a 64-year-old male to father children. Not true and it is indeed extremely rare. This thinking is one of those phony male virility stories. Male virility slides down precipitously after 35 just like women. Check it out.
3
They "met" when Macron was 15 and she was 40? Or was it more than that? I think you haven't given us all the story. I hope the Times isn't glossing over a situation which was, in fact, something to be condemned, whether the older (predatory) person was a woman or a man.
8
the times isn't glossing over anything. the nyt is only one of the papers with stories about this. if you read the age from melbourne, the toronto star, the guardian and, i'm sure, papers all over the western world you'd see similar stories. finally, and i say this again and again--read the story. nowhere does it say, they had sex when he was 15.
4
Le président de la République française, a monogamist?
Yes, utterly exotic, absolutely unheard of.
Et alors…?
Yes, utterly exotic, absolutely unheard of.
Et alors…?
5
Mme. Macron is quite lovely, so French. Lucky Emmanuel. Best wishes to them both.
11
Roger RUSSIAGATE is more important. That is what you should be writing about.
6
Once again, the French leave us in the dust. We wouldn't handle that age difference between a man and a woman that gracefully. Especially when the man is the junior partner. We'd cackle and cluck like chickens. We abuse their privacy and disrespect their adulthood. The French when it comes to sex, are grown-ups!
129
We can't imagine a truly equal relationship and somehow think because the man is younger he is being dominated. Americans delight in the opposite situation when a man is older and does dominate. Look at poor frightened Melania. She doesn't even want to be with him. What a refreshing difference this couple is. True partners in life.
9
@Lilies: had the Macrons met 10 years ago, at 29 and 54, I would think little about it -- except that it was slightly unusual. Nothing immoral though.
And you have NO IDEA whatsoever that Melania Trump is "scared of her husband" and "doesn't wish to be with him" -- you are just making stuff up, because YOU hate Trump.
If Mrs. Trump is frightened, it is of the vicious media that mocked her for speaking at the Republican Convention last summer. She is not scared of her husband. If she was, she could leave and get a nice fat alimony check -- just like his past two wives. She is not a "prisoner" -- that is absurd.
And you have NO IDEA whatsoever that Melania Trump is "scared of her husband" and "doesn't wish to be with him" -- you are just making stuff up, because YOU hate Trump.
If Mrs. Trump is frightened, it is of the vicious media that mocked her for speaking at the Republican Convention last summer. She is not scared of her husband. If she was, she could leave and get a nice fat alimony check -- just like his past two wives. She is not a "prisoner" -- that is absurd.
5
I think the mockery was the result of Melania Trump's blatant plagiarism, not of the viciousness of the media.
4
Vive la France! Best wishes to incoming President and Madame Macron, and to our enduring ally - France.
46
There is an innate confidence in a man that follows his heart and shatters norms. The norm still today is for men to drape themselves with younger woman to bolster their own confidence and appeal.
As a woman looking a the confidence in which he carries off his choice, very appealing.
As a woman looking a the confidence in which he carries off his choice, very appealing.
86
Looks like becoming President of France is dangerous to your marriage! I really hope the Macron's break the curse. In addition to her beauty, it appears that the First Lady of France has a good head on her shoulders and has helped her husband get where he is today. He'd be an idiot to throw her over for youth.
59
They seem like true soul mates as compared to le donald's treatment of his wives and mistresses. They are just an adornment. He couldn't handle a woman his own age. Ask Rosie O'Donnell. He who shall not be questioned by anyone.
4
I guess that sexual mores and the French are 'incompatible'.
4
Sexual mores are, of course, relative.
5
Mr. Manfred:
What do you mean by that?
Sincerely,
Very attractive older woman
What do you mean by that?
Sincerely,
Very attractive older woman
6
What it was meant was that we have developed rigid and outmoded thoughts about what constitutes love's freedom to be open, ready to explore, no prejudices to constrain what may be of mutual benefit, and be willing to accept the hurt feelings should things not work out. It means recognizing our partner, a woman in my case, that as different and opposite she may be, does complements ourselves perfectly, harmoniously as a couple, and yet independent and unique as individuals. Just be and share and enjoy each other. That's all. But nothing less either.
2
Yuck. He was 15 when they met. She was 40. His parents had to send him away to high school to get away from her.
Now imagine if the genders were reversed, and the new President was a female and they were both conservatives?
A 15 year old girl being seduced by a 40 year old male teacher?
Boy, the pink hate lady people would go mad!
Again, yuck.
Now imagine if the genders were reversed, and the new President was a female and they were both conservatives?
A 15 year old girl being seduced by a 40 year old male teacher?
Boy, the pink hate lady people would go mad!
Again, yuck.
23
Jackie, I kind of agree with you about the high school/teacher relationship. That is a set up for exploitation. But the age difference by itself should not be an issue if they met as truly consenting adults. However, if they both were conservatives, it would be highly unlikely that she would be the president.
1
Really? No, it's conservatives who go insane over any unconventional sexual arrangement (or any sex, for that matter). Clearly, this is true love; and good for Macron and his beautiful wife. And as a liberal, I would not find a reverse situation in any way shocking. Indeed, while I oppose Trump's policies on every level, I do not find anything wrong with his marriage to Melania and in fact, am rather fond of our First Lady, particularly since she has the good judgment to keep away from the political swamp her husband is cultivating. If anything is "yuck", it is conservative prurient Puritanism.
10
Jackie,
He pursued her. He seduced her. Why did you assume the reverse? They both found happiness with each other. Yuck would be the emotion for living unhappily to accommodate convention.
He pursued her. He seduced her. Why did you assume the reverse? They both found happiness with each other. Yuck would be the emotion for living unhappily to accommodate convention.
18
American fundamentalist, moralist types could learn so much from the more liberal and enlightened societies. Progress is made, but at a disgustingly slow pace. What a pity.
48
The French do not believe that a woman becomes invisible after she reaches a "certain age". The Macrons exemplify this. Vive la France!
186
Maybe French women are still attractive past their "prime", but there is still a double standard. Many French men consider it's ok to have mistresses. The worst part is that French women agree. They turn a blind eye to their husband's philandering. That's not equality for me.
Mitterrand wrote thousands of love letters to his mistress and recent publication of them did not meet with opprobrium. Quite the contrary. That would not happen in America, luckily.
Being faithful is viewed here as a sine qua non condition of morality, not in France, unfortunately. One might be able to appreciate France for its way of life, but not for their lax moral views on faithfulness.
Mitterrand wrote thousands of love letters to his mistress and recent publication of them did not meet with opprobrium. Quite the contrary. That would not happen in America, luckily.
Being faithful is viewed here as a sine qua non condition of morality, not in France, unfortunately. One might be able to appreciate France for its way of life, but not for their lax moral views on faithfulness.
2
Americans are not more "moral" than the French. They just hide their love, especially republican men who are homosexual. I don't think many people would consider Donnie's actions moral in any way. He openly flaunted his mistresses in the press, hurting his wife and children and kept trading them in for a younger model. He could not handle an older woman. I don't think he handles younger women either. Disgusting immoral man who treats all women as dirt.
15
I've never understood why people have to be "faithful" to each other. What is the purpose of that -- other than making sure that the mother of any children isn't left without someone to bring home the freshly killed boar or whatever was edible at that moment in history?
What is moral about faithfulness -- who wrote that nonsense? Which religion started this idiocy?
What is good about living every day of one's life with someone you no longer have great passion for -- or don't like at all -- just because it's been done that way for centuries?
Stupid!
What is moral about faithfulness -- who wrote that nonsense? Which religion started this idiocy?
What is good about living every day of one's life with someone you no longer have great passion for -- or don't like at all -- just because it's been done that way for centuries?
Stupid!
2
I can see Mike Pence shaking his head.
127
You mean the man who calls his wife Mother?
51
Mother, can you believe the French.
8
Does the occupant in Trump Tower, who visits the White House from time to time call her husband "Daddy"? Americans need to expand their intellectual as well as their moral, cultural horizons.
7
Why is this even an issue? C'est parfaitement normal, n'est-ce pas?
83
It's an issue because of the stark contrast with the situation in the US, where the first lady is a trophy wife who has no appeal other than physical. The choice of a mate is pretty defining and Macron obviously chose better than Donald Trump.
10
They are an unusual couple. He is 39; she is 64.
No.
What is unusual is that it is 2017 and still, people will decide\judge whom may fall in love and whether their reasons are valid enough.
''Bof ''
No.
What is unusual is that it is 2017 and still, people will decide\judge whom may fall in love and whether their reasons are valid enough.
''Bof ''
159
We do when it comes to statutory rape of a minor child by a TEACHER whom we entrust with the care and education of that child.
If the Macrons had met as adults, I would not care in the least about their ages.
If the Macrons had met as adults, I would not care in the least about their ages.
3
@CC
There was no statutory ''rape'' as you assert.
The age of consent in France is 15, as specified by Article 227-25 of the Penal Code
You may wish to evoke some sort of moral high ground and outcry to something you don't understand, or just condemn on baseless notions, but there was no law broken.
Just two consenting adults ( in the eyes of law ) that have gone on to have a wonderful life. ( and continue to do so )
There was no statutory ''rape'' as you assert.
The age of consent in France is 15, as specified by Article 227-25 of the Penal Code
You may wish to evoke some sort of moral high ground and outcry to something you don't understand, or just condemn on baseless notions, but there was no law broken.
Just two consenting adults ( in the eyes of law ) that have gone on to have a wonderful life. ( and continue to do so )
10
I see we are both concerned. But she did not have intimate relations with him when he was fifteen. That is the definition of statutory rape. So, what is your point?
1
True,that's life
13
Simply, Vive la France !
67
Had their relationship begun when he was a consenting adult, then this would indeed be refreshing. But she was a married teacher, nearly 40, when she met him, and he was 15. It is simply not the case that if the roles were reversed, everyone would shrug. Life is sloppy and this relationship shouldn't disqualify him from office. But that doesn't mean we must celebrate it.
24
Precisely their relation begun when he became an adult (legally speaking ). So what ?
2
you're assuming they're lying about waiting until he was 18 before having 'carnal' relations?
only they know for sure.
in any case, they seem to be happy so.....
only they know for sure.
in any case, they seem to be happy so.....
2
15-year-olds are mentally vulnerable. Adult life is racing at them at 100 mph, and they're nervous, fraught with concerns about their first jobs, a car, relationships, peer pressure, SATs, college, financial aid, etc. They easily develop crushes on teachers when they see that you care; however, it is our job to gently and skillfully shut them down when they become too awkward or forward in their approach. I have no problem with the Macron marriage due to age, but access. Why did Brigitte allow a 15-year-old kid to get so close to her? Her own immaturity? I think she's dishonest. A teacher's sense of duty to the parents and school community, as well as to her family and professional reputation, should never be compromised for the sake of flattery and lust.
Let's be mindful that priests have been roundly condemned as child molesters for touching teenage boys. And being a woman is no pass, either.