The analogy with Nazi Germany...
Jews were refugees who were turned away while fleeing Nazi German.
Mexicans are refugees being turned away while fleeing Mexico.
Go figure...
Jews were refugees who were turned away while fleeing Nazi German.
Mexicans are refugees being turned away while fleeing Mexico.
Go figure...
9
This piece belongs on the front page, not on the opinion page. Everything about it is reporting on facts, present and past. There's no room for "alternative facts" in this world, so let's start fighting the real fight and stop pretending that all messages have equal merit and deserve equal airtime. The NYTs has its bully pulpit - we readers expect you to use it more fully.
23
Do not downplay the events of the Third Reich, and the systemic mass murder of millions directly or indirectly (starting the war and bringing on the Holocaust) and the current American administration. It is an outrageous overstatement which does no credit to someone with high flown academic credentials. The DT White House has more in common with a bumbling third world dictator or a pompous strutting fascist like Mussolini.
The argument before SCOTUS by Sessions DOJ in Maslenjak v, U.S. is jaw-dropping enough without resort to hyperbole. Leave that to the Breitbart, Murdoch, and Bannon circles, and the swamp of white nationalists on the net here and abroad. Their stock and trade is the half-truth twisted and exaggerated.
The argument before SCOTUS by Sessions DOJ in Maslenjak v, U.S. is jaw-dropping enough without resort to hyperbole. Leave that to the Breitbart, Murdoch, and Bannon circles, and the swamp of white nationalists on the net here and abroad. Their stock and trade is the half-truth twisted and exaggerated.
8
Thank you for this thoughtful piece.
9
why aren't Europeans and Canadians who have overstayed their visas being arrested and deported?
19
We know that other groups who are here on a visa have committed crimes such as traffic violations and much more serious crimes. We know that other groups have overstayed their visas, thus breaking the law of the United States, but Trump is only concerned with arresting people of color. All others are safe as long as they are white. 50,000 Irish men and women who have over stayed their visas and not one has been arrested, torn from their homes or deported. Discrimination in these laws and bands must be investigated by the Judges who question them. This should not happen to anyone, but if it is going to happen, it should involve people from Europe as well as Muslim countries. If not, it must be stopped.
22
When the new cast of authoritarian characters--Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, and Filipino President Rodrigo Détente--is added to the usuals--Putin, Xi, Castro, Maduro and Kim, control of anyone's citizenship would be a most explosive situation.
Trump doesn't appear to assign hit squads to assassinate any individuals, or opposing groups; however, can we ever be sure that he won't. Erdogan has moved incrementally, nationalizing some corporations, taking-over the media, replacing the top generals with his men, and fabricating the charade of a coup, several months ago, in order to grab more, and more, power.
I certainly wouldn't put anything past him.The "Trump Republican Party" sits idly by, as the GOP "Leadership: and Trump use each other; but, in the meantime, he--like Erdogan--has been raising his relative status.
As it appear, at least in Donald's delusional mind, Donald J. Trumpo is above everyone, and everything--the Congress, the Constitution, and "We, the People."
This whole charade must e=be brought to a halt!
https://thetruthoncommonsense.com
Trump doesn't appear to assign hit squads to assassinate any individuals, or opposing groups; however, can we ever be sure that he won't. Erdogan has moved incrementally, nationalizing some corporations, taking-over the media, replacing the top generals with his men, and fabricating the charade of a coup, several months ago, in order to grab more, and more, power.
I certainly wouldn't put anything past him.The "Trump Republican Party" sits idly by, as the GOP "Leadership: and Trump use each other; but, in the meantime, he--like Erdogan--has been raising his relative status.
As it appear, at least in Donald's delusional mind, Donald J. Trumpo is above everyone, and everything--the Congress, the Constitution, and "We, the People."
This whole charade must e=be brought to a halt!
https://thetruthoncommonsense.com
"Immigrants without legal status" is a preposterous way to describe illegals, They are no such thing. They are illegals and they can be sent home. It's not a human rights violation to do so.
10
So interesting to see commenters here defending the current approach to immigration. I urge everyone who thinks it's a good idea we have this new office for so-called "victims" of crimes committed by so-called illegal immigrants to ask:
--How is one to know whether a crime was committed by an immigrant?
--If one does know a crime is committed by an immigrant, how is one to know that person's status as an immigrant?
--Isn't a crime a crime regardless of who committed it or their status?
--If the answer to that last question is "no," then what does that mean going forward for our country as a democracy?
It is worth noting that any legal system anywhere can be co-opted by people determined to be despotic. Institutions and laws alone will not save us from that fate--as MLK Jr. wrote from Birmingham jail, "we should never forget that everything Adolf Hitler did in Germany was "legal.""
--How is one to know whether a crime was committed by an immigrant?
--If one does know a crime is committed by an immigrant, how is one to know that person's status as an immigrant?
--Isn't a crime a crime regardless of who committed it or their status?
--If the answer to that last question is "no," then what does that mean going forward for our country as a democracy?
It is worth noting that any legal system anywhere can be co-opted by people determined to be despotic. Institutions and laws alone will not save us from that fate--as MLK Jr. wrote from Birmingham jail, "we should never forget that everything Adolf Hitler did in Germany was "legal.""
16
There is a huge difference between persecution and prosecution. The comparison between the Jews of Nazi Germany and our own illegals doesn't stand precisely because of this distinction. In Nazi Germany the legislation violated the Jews. Today's illegals have violated the legislation. No one enacted any laws targeting them, their trangressions are entirely of their own accord. But if we are to insist on drawing parallels between the two eras, it could be said that today's illegals share a trait with the Nazis themselves because both groups have invaded countries en mass in violation of national sovereignty.
10
Jason, everything you correctly criticize about this U.S. Administration's criminalization of minorities (and possibly of perceived 'enemies') could equally be applied to Israel's current treatment of its own indigenous Arab-Israelis, not to mention its humiliation of the Palestinians (Yes, I know, Israel's massive, collective reprisals are intended to reduce the Palestinians' lobbing of pin-prick katyusha rockets at Israel).
Your closing sentence is ominously profound.
Your closing sentence is ominously profound.
6
Very well said, Mr. Stanley.
2
They constantly use this label of "criminal" to describe immigrants. These are the same individuals who placed General Flynn in his national security position and may have broken the law. This criminalization is coming from a president and his team that may have colluded with the Russians to become our president. One continues to read reports about all of the business interests and possible ethics violations by the president's team, especially his family now occupying offices right next to the Oval Office. Who criminalizes others and calls then 'snakes'? The 'moral' leader of the free world who has demeaned women with sexual vulgarity, who has refused to release his taxes, and who is now associating himself with strongmen and dictators with criminality in their hands, especially the president of the Philippines. Where is the duplicity?
22
The authors of the 14th amendment sought to settle definitively the troublesome issue of American citizenship. The original Constitution does not list the requirements for citizenship, and most states asserted their authority to fill the gap for their own residents. Justice Taney, however, tried to override this approach in the Dred Scott decision, by ruling that no African American could attain citizenship status. The drafters of the 14th amendment repudiated this ruling in section 1, which stipulates that all persons born or naturalized in the US are citizens.
The Trump administration clearly seeks to circumvent the naturalization part of the amendment, but there are many people in this country who would also like to repeal birth citizenship. Referring to cases in which pregnant foreigners enter the country to have their babies, to secure American citizenship for them, these critics paint a dark picture of a widespread conspiracy designed to undermine our culture or security. This fear belongs to the same strain of paranoia that fuels support for Trump's anti-immigrant campaign.
Birthright citizenship sends a clear message to the world that the US does not define itself in terms of culture, religion, or a family's American heritage. This liberal conception of the American community qualifies as a tribute to confidence in the strength and appeal of American institutions, as symbolized by the plaque on Lady Liberty. It is worth defending.
The Trump administration clearly seeks to circumvent the naturalization part of the amendment, but there are many people in this country who would also like to repeal birth citizenship. Referring to cases in which pregnant foreigners enter the country to have their babies, to secure American citizenship for them, these critics paint a dark picture of a widespread conspiracy designed to undermine our culture or security. This fear belongs to the same strain of paranoia that fuels support for Trump's anti-immigrant campaign.
Birthright citizenship sends a clear message to the world that the US does not define itself in terms of culture, religion, or a family's American heritage. This liberal conception of the American community qualifies as a tribute to confidence in the strength and appeal of American institutions, as symbolized by the plaque on Lady Liberty. It is worth defending.
13
Someone who commits a crime is not necessarily a criminal? Yes, they are. The very definition of a criminal is someone who commits a crime. How sad that the author is actually a professor at my alma mater. (Note, most traffic violations, such as speeding, are not crimes but infractions. Crimes are transgressions one can be jailed for.)
4
It amazes me that a country of immigrants and their offspring (America) could so sharply embrace or tolerate the anti-immigrant cult that has taken over the Republican Party and much of the Conservative movement. There is not one person- including the First Peoples groups- that are not the descendants of people who came to this land from somewhere else. In America we are all the children of migrants only differing in how may generations removed we are from those who came here.
Europe is a different issue in some ways. Many smaller countries with smallish populations feel very vulnerable to migration of dissimilar peoples and rightly fear their culture could be swamped in a few generations of high birthrate migrants. I am not excusing the position these people take, but their discomfort is understandable and has not been properly considered by those in power.
As to criminality, how can someone who embraces the teachings of Christianity- grounded in forgiveness, grace, mercy and redemption - use the law to divide us as a people based upon violation of any law. Even the very Conservative John Roberts can see the stupidity in the argument.
Europe is a different issue in some ways. Many smaller countries with smallish populations feel very vulnerable to migration of dissimilar peoples and rightly fear their culture could be swamped in a few generations of high birthrate migrants. I am not excusing the position these people take, but their discomfort is understandable and has not been properly considered by those in power.
As to criminality, how can someone who embraces the teachings of Christianity- grounded in forgiveness, grace, mercy and redemption - use the law to divide us as a people based upon violation of any law. Even the very Conservative John Roberts can see the stupidity in the argument.
10
The concept of proportionality to which the author refers is built into the 8th Amendment against unusual punishments. Surely removal of citizenship to driving just over the speed limit would be a paradigmatic example.
More importantly, the mean spiritedness of this should shock us all.
More importantly, the mean spiritedness of this should shock us all.
15
Trumped up charges is the tool of dictatorship and authoritarian
23
There are degrees of malfeasance: who among us has not sinned?
14
Was watching an old Twilight Zone episode today. "The Monsters are due on Maple street" is classic cold war era sci-fi.
The closing narration by Rod Serling: "The tools of conquest do not necessarily come with bombs and explosions and fallout. There are weapons that are simply thoughts, attitudes, prejudices to be found only in the minds of men. For the record, prejudices can kill, and suspicion can destroy, and a thoughtless frightened search for a scapegoat has a fallout all of its own for the children, and the children yet unborn."
The closing narration by Rod Serling: "The tools of conquest do not necessarily come with bombs and explosions and fallout. There are weapons that are simply thoughts, attitudes, prejudices to be found only in the minds of men. For the record, prejudices can kill, and suspicion can destroy, and a thoughtless frightened search for a scapegoat has a fallout all of its own for the children, and the children yet unborn."
34
Prof Stanley:
thank you...
your column could not have arrived one day later.
it is rumored that the mere arrest of any individual,
even when no trial nor conviction results,
subjects the person to the specter of deportation.
given the lopsided likelihood of such actions in the past
being used primarily against peoples of color,
is it any wonder that so many of our citizens rue any
contact of any kind with our so-called justice system?
yet, this practical everyday response,
over time,
leads to a layer of silence and unintended acquiescence.
we desperately need more individuals like your grandmother
to assist us in working our way out of the current
administration's nightmare-tales and strong-armed tactics.
would that the Congress did its constitutional duties and provided
us with an adequate level of funding for the entire justice systems.
until that occurs,
they too,
are directly responsible for the continued practices by an Executive that is rapidly on its way to being out of control.
17
Beautifully written. Yes.
Resistance is the only moral path.
Resistance is the only moral path.
17
Regardless of whether it's a proper position to be taken by the government, I am very concerned about the article and most readers' reactions. The author, a student of propaganda, does not provide the readers with the background information that the Obama administration prosecuted this very case for eight years. The Obama administration shaped the government's position. Trump's administration has been on the case for 100 days. Trump has hardly touched this case. And yet the author uses it to call the president a Hitler like dictator.
10
I feel angry to read a facile comparison of deporting illegal immigrants back to their home country, with extermination of the Jewish people under Hitler. Come on, people, stop it already.
16
The author's intention is to warn of the slippery slope setting such a precedent can cause, not that both situations are identical.
8
Don't you see? This is how it all starts.
9
The New York Times publishes many nonsensical articles that pretend there is no distinction between illegal and legal immigrants. However, this article makes no distinction between legal and illegal immigrants in America and German Jews who were German citizens, not immigrants.
It’s also difficult to know what to make of the author’s assertion that 5,441 of the 21,263 immigrants ICE arrested between January and March “had no history of violating a law.” Does he mean 5,441 had no criminal record until they were arrested for violating immigration laws? No one has a criminal record until they are arrested for violating a law.
It’s also difficult to know what to make of the author’s assertion that 5,441 of the 21,263 immigrants ICE arrested between January and March “had no history of violating a law.” Does he mean 5,441 had no criminal record until they were arrested for violating immigration laws? No one has a criminal record until they are arrested for violating a law.
13
Mr. Case, I fear you missed the part of this essay about proportionality and human rights. Maybe you need to read it again.
5
So we see yet again, another hydra-headed side of the monstrosity that is the Trump Administration - as well as the lawless, merciless mindset, sometimes approaching glee, of those that put him there.
God help us - these are the ones most aligned with frequent, overzealous pronouncements of their Christian Faith and Piety! They would be the first to re-crucify Christ all over again, feeling they had done the Lord's work at the end of the day...
God help us - these are the ones most aligned with frequent, overzealous pronouncements of their Christian Faith and Piety! They would be the first to re-crucify Christ all over again, feeling they had done the Lord's work at the end of the day...
40
"[H]istory suggests that it is rarely constrained to just one group. If we look away when the state brands someone a criminal, who among us then remains safe?"
Unfortunately, people tend to disregard such scary comparisons. During the Great Depression, there was mass deportation of up to "2 million … Mexicans [who] were targeted because of 'the proximity of the Mexican border, the physical distinctiveness of mestizos, and easily identifiable barrios' … 60% were US-born citizens. … one scholar has argued that the process meets modern standards for ethnic cleansing. In 2005, the State of California passed the 'Apology Act for the 1930s Mexican Repatriation Program', apologizing for the state government's role in the repatriation" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Repatriation)
I have mentioned this several times to my Indian American friends including Trump supporters. Few were fazed by this statistic. Until it comes to you, you ignore. Our defense mechanism is structured that way!
Unfortunately, people tend to disregard such scary comparisons. During the Great Depression, there was mass deportation of up to "2 million … Mexicans [who] were targeted because of 'the proximity of the Mexican border, the physical distinctiveness of mestizos, and easily identifiable barrios' … 60% were US-born citizens. … one scholar has argued that the process meets modern standards for ethnic cleansing. In 2005, the State of California passed the 'Apology Act for the 1930s Mexican Repatriation Program', apologizing for the state government's role in the repatriation" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Repatriation)
I have mentioned this several times to my Indian American friends including Trump supporters. Few were fazed by this statistic. Until it comes to you, you ignore. Our defense mechanism is structured that way!
31
That is, sadly, true for many, but not for all. That is why I don't buy not judging people by modern standards, instead of the standards of their time. There have always been people during those times who fought for the rights of others or helped in other ways because it was the right to do.
8
You are right. We may go on ignoring this until it's too late.
3
The authors allegation that ICE arrests and deports unauthorized immigrants for trivial crimes such as speeding is false. It doesn't arrest them for more serious crimes such as rape, robbery or murder, either. ICE only arrests people for violations of immigration laws or custom laws. None of the 21,362 unauthorized immigrants arrested between January and March were arrest4ed because that have criminal history. They were arrested for being unlawfully present in the United States.
Didn't Trumps third wife break the law by working without a work visa. If you are going to deport naturalized citizens that have broken the law, look no further. Stop attacking brown skinned people.
48
The reason my entire family immigrated to the US wasn't because they were looking for a better life (although we were fortunate to have come before the rise of Hitler). Rather, my great grandfather was expelled from his Austrian-Hungarian community (along with the family) because he had cursed in the synagogue. Anti-Semitic boys were throwing rocks at the temple. They broke glass, and my Great-grandfather's crime was to use God's name in vain. They were forced out of their community and felt that the US was the only option. All of his grandsons (and grandson in laws) became attorneys, with one arguing on more than one occasion for civil rights in the US Supreme Court. Those "criminal" immigrants of today produce productive members of tomorrow's society.
22
Lesa--We might need your services if trump and his thugs try to eliminate the 1st amendment, as was threatened over the weekend.
4
If Mexican's are fleeing their native Mexico and moving to the US, then you have our modern day Nazis mixed up.
1
Fact- The number 1 cause of crime is law. Law is something we make up so that society functions in a manner we like. It does not come down from Mt. Sinai written on tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of the Almighty. We need to be open to the possibility that our laws need to be tweaked on occasion to achieve the end social result we like. Just saying, "It's against the law", is simply avoiding the issue, which is, does the current law serve our purposes and create the society we want.
17
There are good reasons for our current immigration laws and until these laws are changed I expect to see them enforced.
Meanwhile you are free to contact your Congressman and express your desire to see the laws changed.
After all, it's a free country.
Meanwhile you are free to contact your Congressman and express your desire to see the laws changed.
After all, it's a free country.
3
But Philippines leader Rodrigo Duterte is welcome here.
In spite of numerous extra-judicial killings and insulting President Obama, Duterte is nevertheless welcome. What is troubling is that it may be because of Duterte's deplorable actions that Duterte is being welcomed by Trump, not in spite of it.
In spite of numerous extra-judicial killings and insulting President Obama, Duterte is nevertheless welcome. What is troubling is that it may be because of Duterte's deplorable actions that Duterte is being welcomed by Trump, not in spite of it.
37
Ah, the old pseudo reductio ad absurdum argument.
One is almost equal to two, and two is almost equal to three, and three is almost equal to four, etc. etc., so soon, one million becomes almost the same as one.
Life is full of distinctions,
Nature is full of distinctions.
No reason for immigration law, or any other law, not to make distinctions.
Foreigners are foreigners.
They are not citizens.
Under American immigration law
(as under the immigration law of nearly every other country).
if a foreigner is here without legal authorization,
he has no right to be here at all,
and he is an illegal alien,
and he can be deported anytime,
regardless whether or not he has committed any "criminal" act,
and regardless whether this or that criminal act is "trivial".
Regardless whether or not some criminal acts are "trivial"
in the context of revocation of citizenship,
the point is irrelevant in the context of deportation of illegal alines.
Maslenjak v. U.S. is a case involving revocation of citizenship.
It is not a deportation case involving someone who never had citizenship.
Regardless whether this or that criminal act is or is not "trivial",
and regardless whether a "trivial" criminal act ought or ought not to be
the basis for revocation of citizenship,
the discussion in that case is irrelevant in the context of deportation for illegal aliens.
One is almost equal to two, and two is almost equal to three, and three is almost equal to four, etc. etc., so soon, one million becomes almost the same as one.
Life is full of distinctions,
Nature is full of distinctions.
No reason for immigration law, or any other law, not to make distinctions.
Foreigners are foreigners.
They are not citizens.
Under American immigration law
(as under the immigration law of nearly every other country).
if a foreigner is here without legal authorization,
he has no right to be here at all,
and he is an illegal alien,
and he can be deported anytime,
regardless whether or not he has committed any "criminal" act,
and regardless whether this or that criminal act is "trivial".
Regardless whether or not some criminal acts are "trivial"
in the context of revocation of citizenship,
the point is irrelevant in the context of deportation of illegal alines.
Maslenjak v. U.S. is a case involving revocation of citizenship.
It is not a deportation case involving someone who never had citizenship.
Regardless whether this or that criminal act is or is not "trivial",
and regardless whether a "trivial" criminal act ought or ought not to be
the basis for revocation of citizenship,
the discussion in that case is irrelevant in the context of deportation for illegal aliens.
17
No sir. I'm afraid that it is not "irrelevant," to some of us, when lives are ruined, meaninglessly, mindlessly, cruelly.
4
If we're talking about distinctions, crossing the border without the proper documents, desperate to get away from horrendous violence, or desperate to provide for their families is not the monumental "crime" the right wing wants everyone to believe. If the reason for crossing the border is to import drugs, for example, that is a distinction that should be made, and that person deserves to be charged with a crime. Let's make the fair and just distinctions, more to keep our own moral compasses calibrated than for those desperate people.
6
Do you have any idea of what it costs to obtain citizenship? You need a qualified immigration attorney; you need money for court costs and fees; you need to pay either rent, or property taxes while you pursue your case. I had a friend, an engineer from China. She came over on a work visa; she worked at Columbia University as a programmer; she maintained their computer system. The total for her citizenship was $10,000. She had to save enough to pay that in cash, also her attorney and court costs. She had a Mercedes from a divorce; she sold that and bought a run down condo in Queens. Where will a nanny, housekeeper, motel worker, meat packing worker, restaurant worker, dishwasher, field worker et al. get that kind of money? If you want to punish someone, look to the employer, not to the vulnerable people being exploited for low wages and no benefits.
2
This time, it seems that those who are most in danger do grasp the extremity of the situation; it is those who are not in danger who do not understand, or will not look.
18
Going over the speed limit is an "infraction" not a crime. The justice should have piped up on that immediately. Of course the racists Trump surrounded himself with now controlling the govt are contemptible in their conflation of the meaning of words and the attempt to manipulate policy through scrambling of semantics. Hispanics that are not bothering anyone, working hard, or running their own businesses as many do should be given a path to citizenship right this very moment. Trump and his minions must be resisted at every opportunity and at any cost!!!
24
When you set out to conflate the victims of the Holocaust with illegal aliens you have already failed the logic test. There is no comparison. Similarly, logic fails when you defend untruthful applicants for citizenship. You are in fact defending the many death camp guards who melted into the chaos after the war, never arrested, tried or convicted – nothing to report, Right?. The Obama Administration fought the original case up through the lower courts; the Trump administration simply continued the matter at the Supreme Court.
Never forget, six million dead Jews sure helps score points in your political argument of the minute. Shameful.
Never forget, six million dead Jews sure helps score points in your political argument of the minute. Shameful.
Just to be clear. The Jews weren't the only ones to suddenly go "missing" during that dark time in German history.
Anyone who didn't fit into the picture of the "1,000-year Reich" had a way of disappearing, including; Socialists, Communists, Homosexuals, Artists, Intellectuals, Students, non-Aryans, Agnostics, the Mentally and/or Physically afflicted, etc. -- the list was a long one.
They too, are part of the shameful Nazi legacy and narrative that shouldn't be forgotten.
And at this rate, it looks like it very well could happen again.... and here.
Anyone who didn't fit into the picture of the "1,000-year Reich" had a way of disappearing, including; Socialists, Communists, Homosexuals, Artists, Intellectuals, Students, non-Aryans, Agnostics, the Mentally and/or Physically afflicted, etc. -- the list was a long one.
They too, are part of the shameful Nazi legacy and narrative that shouldn't be forgotten.
And at this rate, it looks like it very well could happen again.... and here.
26
Anyone who has broken our laws, getting into our country, should not get or deserve to gain US citizenship, ever.
Go try this out in other countries in the world and see how far you'd get.
Why do we keep allowing millions of law breakers? We are naive.
Go try this out in other countries in the world and see how far you'd get.
Why do we keep allowing millions of law breakers? We are naive.
16
Or, maybe we are simply in need of cheap labor. Immigrants have provided that in countries all over the world, pretty much forever. Want to see the end of supermarket produce aisles? Throw out the immigrants. Need a new roof on your house? There are many places in the US where that calls for immigrant workers spending days in the hot sun spreading tar. Like having a weekly lawn service? That's pretty much up to immigrants to make happen. Chickens cleaned and ready for the oven? That would would be immigrants doing the slaughtering and cleaning. It's a long list. We actually do have to careful who we deport. We'll not make make America great again if we have no food to eat.
I thought the US was "exceptional." It is always interesting when the right compared the US to other countries in certain matters, like immigration, and find the US lacking. In other matters, such as health care and paid parental leave, then comparisons shouldn't be made, because who cares how the rest of the world does things, the US does things its own way.
Try doing stoop labor for big Agribusiness in the summer heat. Try cleaning toilets in a motel/hotel for below minimum wage. Try standing on your feet for long days in a meat packing plant. Try washing dishes in a restaurant kitchen for less than minimum wage, and then having to share that pittance with the chef. The people you call "law breakers" are trying to earn a living; a lot of them send money home to families poorer than they are. Remember when we dumped our excess corn across the border after the ethanol scam failed? We ruined Mexican corn farmers. Now we are dumping excess corn in West Africa, ruining other farming communities. And, why don't you talk to developers and builders who want cheap construction labor to avoid union pay and benefits? You attack the most vulnerable, because you have no power over the large corporate interests which empower this system. Your opinion is full of hot air, much like Trump's opinion about "rapists, murderers" et al. How many Poles did Trump hire to work on his Tower, stiffing them at the end. How many Romanians are now working for Trump in Florida? He will stiff them, too. He uses foreign workers and threatens deportation. He is a tax cheat, a Trump U scam artist, an adulterer, and a friend of Putin. What are his ties to Putin and Russian oligarchs? Loans hidden in bank and tax records he hides. He is a crook elected by an artifact known as the Electoral College. Clinton should have gone to PA, WI and MI.
1
well,it's not too subtle, but you nailed it:
Trump,his positions, his henchmen,and his minions are indistinguishable from Nazis, and they like it that
way because it means they're tough and in charge,a great cover up for their true puny feelings of inadequacy and fear.
Trump,his positions, his henchmen,and his minions are indistinguishable from Nazis, and they like it that
way because it means they're tough and in charge,a great cover up for their true puny feelings of inadequacy and fear.
16
It was the Obama's henchmen that brought the case. Trump inherited it at the Supreme Court.
5
Obama went after those with violent criminal records. He gave the rest a path to citizenship. Obama was the least punitive President compared to Trump, even Clinton. Now we have a crook and a man who admires Putin in the Oval Office. His products are made in China. He is as phony as that comb over, and his golf trips to Florida where he cheats. He costs the county where he flies in on AF One; he costs NYC to protect his far flung family; his kids costs the taxpayers money when they fly with SS protection to inspect business interests in Mumbai, India and Peru.
1
My college roommate went to Europe after graduation in 1961, eventually ending up in England, getting a job illegally because she didn't have a work Visa, went to graduate school, married an Englishman and stayed. I would guess she even gave up her American citizenship and became English because she never came back even once. I wonder if that government would track her down and deport her after all these years!
11
I recently discovered that my great-great grandfather was an illegal immigrant. Sincerely hoping they don't come after me!
12
Too bad. Can't happen, you have birthright citizenship.
1
Many on the right want to get rid of birthright citizenship.
1
Maybe. Trump has said he will challenge in court the principle that if you were born here, you're a citizen.
President Trump and his American version of the Gestapo have me shaking my head in disbelief and dreading what comes next. What a travesty!
15
The people who invaded our country should be deported. Illegals should feel love toward the country of their origin. By committing the crime of coming here uninvited it should come as no surprise that one day they will face reckoning.
11
How would you feel in this case: You live with your husband and children in El Salvador in the 1980s, when the U.S. is supporting the murderous Contras. The Contras murder your husband, who works with Archbishop Oscar Romeo, also assassinated. Then they rape you, as your young children watch. You know that your must escape with your children, but the U.S. does not accept immigrants from El Salvador. You and your children manage to travel, in great danger, to a "sanctuary church" in the U.S., where you live illegally for a time. (The church accepts the risk of harboring your family.) The years pass the political situation in El Salvador changes as the Contras' brutality is exposed, and you and your family become naturalized--and grateful and devoted--U.S. citizens. Fast forward to 2017. You and your children, and now grandchildren, remain very active members of the church that allowed you this chance, as well as exceedingly productive citizens of your adopted country.
You too may have ancestors who fled a country which threatened their lives and/or well-being. I know I have ancestors who fled England in 1630 because of persecution.
Do you have a heart?
You too may have ancestors who fled a country which threatened their lives and/or well-being. I know I have ancestors who fled England in 1630 because of persecution.
Do you have a heart?
3
Don't recall any invasion of the continental US off hand. Lotsa folks came here, but coming in is not invading.
1
I don't think the Native Americans invited anybody. Perhaps we who are not Native should all leave.
2
This is one of the scarier things I've read yet about this administration, and that's saying a lot.
18
The author seems unaware that Donald Trump issued an executive order granted top refugee priority to members of persecuted religious minorities, which would have saved hundreds of thousands of Jews, if not millions of Jews, had it been in effect during World War II. However, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals blocked that part of the executive order because it would have placed Muslim refugees at a disadvantage in Muslim countries that persecute Jews, Christians and other minorities.
11
Well yes - there are many reasons why for someone to be a refugee. Many kinds of persecution they might be fleeing, and singling out one particular reason is discriminatory.
8
Singling out people of a specific religion is unconstitutional, period. It's horrific that the Jews at the port weren't allowed to disembark, and that denial was more a matter of anti-Semitism than anything else. It isn't only Christians that are being persecuted or harmed. Being from the "wrong" flavor of Islam is also dangerous, for example. Although sides seem to be taken in most contemporary conflicts based on religion, the conflicts are really about land and power, as was the real reason for the conflicts in Ireland, even though it looked like it was a Catholic vs. Protestant conflict. Are you willing to defend Muslims in the US? They are minorities, and they are now being targeted more than ever by certain groups. If you're willing to defend one minority, but not another, well, you know what that makes you.
1
You're kidding, right?
1
We took full advantage of those illegal immigrants since people started over staying their visas or people crossing Mexican border for low paid jobs. Americans employed them where no blue workers will work. our food on the table comes due to their hard labor in the filed. Many small businesses employed them with cash payments to avoid government taxes. There were instances even when many senators, and congressmen used them at home for house hold work. We had been fighting drug wars for several decades but no solution is at cite. No harsher military actions had been able to stop it because it is very lucrative business as long as the demand is increasing. Similarly, no wall can stop illegal immigrant when it is a life and death question - called human rights. we have seen it in Germany and will see it in USA if Trump administration gets its way. Solution? Empathy, education, tolerance, patience and global knowledge by hard core trump supporters including the President himself. To tell you frankly, these hard core Trump supporters have been behaving exactly the way Natsies behaved during the second world war.
16
"We took full advantage of those illegal immigrants since people started over staying their visas or people crossing Mexican border for low paid jobs. "
I hired a landscaper to update my front yard. I asked him to verify he had only workers who were legally allowed to work. He became indignant at my asking this question. BTW, his crew was made up entirely of Mexicans.
So you have the liberal guilt perpetual motion machine at work here.
I hired a landscaper to update my front yard. I asked him to verify he had only workers who were legally allowed to work. He became indignant at my asking this question. BTW, his crew was made up entirely of Mexicans.
So you have the liberal guilt perpetual motion machine at work here.
2
Difficult to think we are being governed by men who have been raised in what I formerly considered "our" nation. Perhaps they, like many religiouslydevout people, were raised in a situation over which they had no choice, such as wealth and the apparent privilege which accompanies that circumstance.
At any rate it appears they are cut from a different cloth than the majority and while we are a country of laws it again appears they have little concern when members of their group transgress.
Time after time it has been noted there appears to be a different standard those of means apply to themselves and other members of their "class" which eliminates 90% of our citizenry. I am almost sure they do not in any way consider themselves "criminal" rather people who seek to change laws which could mitigate against their financeial interests and to do so they need to win control through our elective system, which thanks to "Citizens United", they have managed to accomplish.
Mr Trump and his coterie see nothing wrong with the way they tilt the table and cite our laws to back them up. They are not criminal but they have little regard for ethics which although unwritten we all understand.
However socially skewed, since 1832 we, have accepted the observation of then NY Senator William Marcy "to the victor belong the spoils" and today they are sitting on the throne.
At any rate it appears they are cut from a different cloth than the majority and while we are a country of laws it again appears they have little concern when members of their group transgress.
Time after time it has been noted there appears to be a different standard those of means apply to themselves and other members of their "class" which eliminates 90% of our citizenry. I am almost sure they do not in any way consider themselves "criminal" rather people who seek to change laws which could mitigate against their financeial interests and to do so they need to win control through our elective system, which thanks to "Citizens United", they have managed to accomplish.
Mr Trump and his coterie see nothing wrong with the way they tilt the table and cite our laws to back them up. They are not criminal but they have little regard for ethics which although unwritten we all understand.
However socially skewed, since 1832 we, have accepted the observation of then NY Senator William Marcy "to the victor belong the spoils" and today they are sitting on the throne.
5
Trump hasn’t made or proposed any changes to immigration law. He proposes to enforce Immigration and Nationalization the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act, which President Bill Clinton signed into law in 1996. These acts, which passed with board bipartisan support in both houses, calls for the deportation of foreign nationals unlawfully present in the United States. The “Take Care Clause of the Constitution tasks president to take care that laws passed by Congress are faithfully executed.
16
This opinion and associated "progressive" comments illustrate the fact free nature of "progressive" thought. It is a fact that there is a difference between legal and illegal immigration, a fact our "progressives" like to ignore. Most of the time the "progressives" take a "fact" and twist it so it is not recognizable with their interpretation of the "fact", in this case they just pretend the fact doesn't exist.
9
Sorry, no. Your comment is itself based on a mischaracterization (unfactual). This article discusses the case of revoking already-granted naturalization -- i.e., legal immigration -- for failure to disclose, even through good faith oversight, some past incident of "breaking the law." No distinction between misdemeanors vs crimes vs inadvertent wrong-side-if-the-law mistakes, just revocation of granted citizenship. Illegal immigrants aren't the topic of thus article, so don't bring that in.
1
Conservatives seem to be hard liners on everything except themselves,
Legal immigrants have included Nazis and war criminals, aided by the US government in full knowledge of who these people were. So tell me again how merely crossing the border illegally is an indefensible crime?
People don't just decide cavalierly to cross the border illegally. They would much prefer to come here legally, but the current immigration system is not fair or just, and it isn't effective for the various labor, academic and other needs of this country.
People don't just decide cavalierly to cross the border illegally. They would much prefer to come here legally, but the current immigration system is not fair or just, and it isn't effective for the various labor, academic and other needs of this country.
Mr. Stanley's misquote of candidate Trump, cast doubt on the remaining information presented. Though I agree there should be constraints on deportations, one cannot agree with an argument based on misquotes. Please, NYT ensure your reporters/writers use accurate quotes.
9
So what's the misquote and the "correct" one?
2
Will you share the 'misquote' with the rest of us?
3
I have a confession to make. I speed. A lot. I've also been known to park in the wrong place downtown for conveniene, then just pay the fine. It rains a lot in Seattle and I hate walking to far in 45 degree downpours. My point? In the Trump voters view I am a criminal worthy of deportation.... except one tiny little thing. It's my British ancestry, my lily white skin and my perfect west coast American accent. So I have no worries, though I must say if I tan too dark or speak spanish in the wrong circles, that may change. I suspect German or French wouldn't offend though. Most of them have white skin too.
19
Oh enough. Every last nation has immigration laws and so should we. Liberal sanctimony on this issue is so laughable. People aren't being deported for being too dark skinned. They're being deported because they are breaking our laws.
6
NL452KH so you agree that not disclosing a criminal offense in your citizenship application ((jaywalking, not picking up after your dog) even if there was no arrest is sufficient cause to be de-naturalized and deported? Because that's what this administration is proposing. This has nothing to do with 'liberal sanctimony' and everything to so with authoritarianism. "If the administration has its way, he said, “the government will have the opportunity to denaturalize anyone they want.” Be afraid, be very afraid.
2
Wow, you're a visitor in this country and brag about disobeying its laws. Perhaps we should coin a new term: The Ugly Brit.
Since you get away with it, so should all others and you've managed to bring up your lily white skin as some sort of indictment. Perhaps therapy would help.
Since you get away with it, so should all others and you've managed to bring up your lily white skin as some sort of indictment. Perhaps therapy would help.
Still on this illegal immigration kick I see. This is and always has been a smoke screen in tough economic times. We don't have an illegal immigrant problem. We have an illegal Administration problem.
22
"Still on this illegal immigration kick I see. This is and always has been a smoke screen in tough economic times. "
Tough economic times? According to the NY Times and Krugman things have been economically great in the US for the last several years.
Yeah, and some folks have a thing about obeying the law.
Tough economic times? According to the NY Times and Krugman things have been economically great in the US for the last several years.
Yeah, and some folks have a thing about obeying the law.
1
The Supreme Court case stated here has very little to do with illegal immigrants. It has to do with immigrants with legal status trying to obtain citizenship.
Being an illegal immigrant is inherently a crime (regardless of the severity) and they cannot become citizens without being legalized first. What is at issue is the permanent prevention of obtaining citizenship because of past "crimes". Under the Trump legal interpretation, any trivial infraction that would never show up on a criminal record is cause to reject a person for citizenship. This means any illegal immigrant who takes the arduous steps to become legal would never be allowed to try and obtain citizenship. This also means that anyone who entered this country as a legal immigrant and forgot that they got a parking ticket 15 years ago would also be prevented from becoming a citizen (or having their hard earned reward revoked). It criminalizes simple infractions for naturalized citizens and not for those who are born into citizenship.
It is this action of revoking citizenship for minor violations that is mirroring the tactics used by the Gestapo and Nazi Germany. That it would be attempted today shows us just how much we never learn from history.
Being an illegal immigrant is inherently a crime (regardless of the severity) and they cannot become citizens without being legalized first. What is at issue is the permanent prevention of obtaining citizenship because of past "crimes". Under the Trump legal interpretation, any trivial infraction that would never show up on a criminal record is cause to reject a person for citizenship. This means any illegal immigrant who takes the arduous steps to become legal would never be allowed to try and obtain citizenship. This also means that anyone who entered this country as a legal immigrant and forgot that they got a parking ticket 15 years ago would also be prevented from becoming a citizen (or having their hard earned reward revoked). It criminalizes simple infractions for naturalized citizens and not for those who are born into citizenship.
It is this action of revoking citizenship for minor violations that is mirroring the tactics used by the Gestapo and Nazi Germany. That it would be attempted today shows us just how much we never learn from history.
13
You yourself said that they prevent people from gaining citizenship. Thats different from revoking.
4
It's not Nazi Germany to deny foreigners the right to become American citizens. Stop that.
5
The New office in DHS, of VOICE,
Victims of Immigration Crime Engagement,
Call them up and report that Aliens have landed in your back yard, in a flying saucer, and have abducted your cat, or whatever you want to report. Just tie up their phone lines..
Victims of Immigration Crime Engagement,
Call them up and report that Aliens have landed in your back yard, in a flying saucer, and have abducted your cat, or whatever you want to report. Just tie up their phone lines..
It's despicable to compare America to the Nazis.
1) Being sent back to Mexico is not equivalent to being sent to Auschwitz.
2) The courts are not going to allow Trump to deport citizens.
3) People who are in the US do not have any right to stay here.
4) It is highly unlikely any significant number of those here illegally will ever be deported.
5) The Democrats during the entire Obama administration deported plenty and did not lift a finger to make the illegal legal, so stop pretending this is solely a Trump problem.
1) Being sent back to Mexico is not equivalent to being sent to Auschwitz.
2) The courts are not going to allow Trump to deport citizens.
3) People who are in the US do not have any right to stay here.
4) It is highly unlikely any significant number of those here illegally will ever be deported.
5) The Democrats during the entire Obama administration deported plenty and did not lift a finger to make the illegal legal, so stop pretending this is solely a Trump problem.
14
I think you missed the point, which is about rhetoric being used to strip away rights and assigning Draconian punishments for relatively trivial transgressions.
10
wrong on every count
also, don't be drawn into the fake idea that all hispanics, or anyone who has crossed over our border with Mexico, is a Mexican. that's both racist and wrong. and being sent back to the murderous gang chaos of a place like El Salvador is a death sentence comparable to being a sent to a concentration camp.
also, don't be drawn into the fake idea that all hispanics, or anyone who has crossed over our border with Mexico, is a Mexican. that's both racist and wrong. and being sent back to the murderous gang chaos of a place like El Salvador is a death sentence comparable to being a sent to a concentration camp.
6
If El Salvador is such an awful place then perhaps your outrage should be directed at those who run it.
4
I thought the question of which people in this country illegally were criminals and should be deported should evolve around the question of which illegal immigrants were destructive to our society -- not who had a traffic ticket. Russian Mafia -- out! Islamic terrorists -- out! Person who went 60 miles an hour in a 55 miles per hour zone -- you've got to be kidding. Like Jesus said, the one without sin should cast the first stone.
6
Congress made illegal immigration and posing as a citizens to obtain jobs felony offenses because they undermine the nation’s ability to provide work for its citizens, control its borders and regulate immigration. ICE doesn’t arrest anyone for traffic tickets or crimes like theft, assault, robbery, rape, or murder. ICE has no jurisdiction over these types of crimes. It only arrests people for violations of immigration or custom laws.
3
Please read the article. The Trump administration is proposing that anyone who is a naturalized American citizen could be denaturalized and deported if it can be shown that they omitted disclosing ANY criminal offense of ANY kind in their application for citizenship, even if there was no arrest. So if I forgot to disclose that I sometimes walked the dog without a leash, I could be stripped of citizenship and deported. To quote Chief Justice Roberts "If the administration has its way, he said, “the government will have the opportunity to denaturalize anyone they want.” That's scary.
1
DUI are traffic violations. I don't consider speeding and drunk driving harmless.
1
What is most troublesome to me is what is to happen to those who are picked up? Are they immediately deported, or are they slated to become residents of the new private prisons we've been hearing about?
It's not surprising that someone would want to make a profit off these people, but we should not allow them to be exploited before they are returned to their own country.
I hate what we're seeing done in our name, and all because a very small group of Americans have been taught to hate those not like them. What a sorry lot.
It's not surprising that someone would want to make a profit off these people, but we should not allow them to be exploited before they are returned to their own country.
I hate what we're seeing done in our name, and all because a very small group of Americans have been taught to hate those not like them. What a sorry lot.
6
I don't like Trump, but preceding the opinion piece with "The Trump administration should not have the power to revoke the citizenship of 'anyone they want'" is somewhat unfair. The prosecution was commenced, the petition for certiorari was filed, the opposition to the petition was filed, and the petition was granted during Obama's Administration.
There were some members of the Court, including Ginsburg, who thought the petitioner's admittedly false statement was material. If SCOTUS rules in her favor, the prosecution may be able to prove to the satisfaction of a jury that if she had not lied about her husband's service in a Bosnian Serb military unit which had committed atrocities, her application would have been denied.
There were some members of the Court, including Ginsburg, who thought the petitioner's admittedly false statement was material. If SCOTUS rules in her favor, the prosecution may be able to prove to the satisfaction of a jury that if she had not lied about her husband's service in a Bosnian Serb military unit which had committed atrocities, her application would have been denied.
10
Equally disturbing is that Trump is a criminal himself, by his own admission. All in favor of deporting Donald Trump say "Aye".
12
Is this a trick question. Pick anyone from the President on down in his administration. Seems a case could be made for sedition given his statements about the Courts.
Mr. Trump should remember that his grandfather was kicked out of Germany for being a criminal (draft dodger). If the US had a Trump-like immigration policy, at the time his grandfather arrived here, then his father would have been booted out of this country.
12
To all of you who don't understand the conflating of "illegal" immigrants with Nazi Germany, I suggest you read the following book:
After They Closed the Gates by Libby Garland.
She writes about the closing of American immigration from 1921 to 1965. Although she focuses on the effect of the new laws on Jews, it is a real eye opener about the history of immigration in the 20th century. It seems that nothing has changed in the past hundred years except for the ethnic groups (not necessarily countries of origin) of the people being excluded. The reasons are the same and, we had thought, long since proven wrong.
After They Closed the Gates by Libby Garland.
She writes about the closing of American immigration from 1921 to 1965. Although she focuses on the effect of the new laws on Jews, it is a real eye opener about the history of immigration in the 20th century. It seems that nothing has changed in the past hundred years except for the ethnic groups (not necessarily countries of origin) of the people being excluded. The reasons are the same and, we had thought, long since proven wrong.
19
Donald Trump issued an executive order that would have given refugee member of persecuted religious minorities. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals block this order because it would have placed Muslims refugees in Muslim countries that persecute Jews and Christians at a disadvantage. Such an executive order would has rescued hundreds of thousands of Jews from the Holocaust. Of course, there is not parallel between the deportation of unauthorized immigrants and Holocaust refugees.
2
m.pipik, are you aware that we give out nearly a million green cards annually, and that Mexicans get more of them than people from any other country? Mexicans are being given 30% of the highly coveted green cards which allow people to legally become permanent residents. This is a skipping stone to citizenship.
4
Stop blaming the US for the holocaust. Just stop it. Sending Mexicans back to Mexico is not behaving like Nazis. Liberals are utterly irrational on this issue.
4
Thank you Mr. Stanley, for an incredibly insightful and sensitive opinion about such despicable behavior. I can only hope that your column will resonate with many who do not fully see the danger that the current president and his administration pose to our society, our values, our very democracy. Their words and actions are insidious, and, like earlier in history, may only be fully realized when it is too late, unless everyone becomes much more mindful; they are the poisonous snakes, and as with so many previous examples, 45 refers to others as he actually knows himself to be.
18
This is why there can be no compromise with a leftist. As soon as a consensus is reached and rhetorical ground is yielded, the goal-posts get moved. Deportation is not a "punishment" in the legal sense to begin with, which is why is court procedures are completely different than criminal procedures. But somewhere along the way, leftists started arguing "Why are we deporting law-abiding people, we should prioritize criminals first." The mainstream agrees to some extent, but then the argument becomes "Oh, but we didn't mean people that committed simple traffic violations when we said 'law-abiding'. Then it becomes "Well, no we meant not for DUI's either, even if citizens are put at significant risk by the behavior, we meant just felonies". Then it was: "Oh not all felonies, just violent felonies". Soon, it will be "cruel and unusual" to try to deport murderers, even though deportation never had anything to do with criminality in the first place.
13
Deporting violent criminals seems like a good way to prioritize it.
6
What does “leftist” have to do with this?
5
If your arguments are good, they should stand on their own and not the slippery slope argument which rightists use to lock up tens of thousands for possessing marijuana and to defend the rights of the mentally ill to purchase assault rifles.
6
This ejection of immigrants for vehicular misdeeds, together with the fascist slogan, "America First", should send klaxons of warning through our population. Brannon and Gorky may not be in the forefront these days, but their political brand is...a white, Protestant, America.
12
Spell check strikes again. Bannon and Gorka.
"America First" was Charles Limberg - Isolationist, yes. Anti-War, yes. Fascist? Sorry your making that up.
3
The issue in Nazi Germany was the arbitrary dictatorial power given to the head of state. Once that happens - as it did in the USSR, Cuba, North Korea, China, Venezuela, Zimbabwe, et al - then anything goes.
The US is moving in that direction step by step, and it doesn't matter which party controls the Executive. Every POTUS who wants to be an "activist" sovereign has moved the administration of this country toward the same end as a tyrant/dictator/monarch. This is as true under Trump as it was under Obama, Bush, Clinton, FDR, LBJ, etc.
We used to have a document that circumscribed the power of both the Executive and the Legislative branches. However, as they are wont to do, the politicians elected to these two branches - and the SCOTUS jurists who agree with them - have enjoyed well over a century of ways of sidestepping and evading what the Constitution spells out.
Throw them all out. Quickly.
The US is moving in that direction step by step, and it doesn't matter which party controls the Executive. Every POTUS who wants to be an "activist" sovereign has moved the administration of this country toward the same end as a tyrant/dictator/monarch. This is as true under Trump as it was under Obama, Bush, Clinton, FDR, LBJ, etc.
We used to have a document that circumscribed the power of both the Executive and the Legislative branches. However, as they are wont to do, the politicians elected to these two branches - and the SCOTUS jurists who agree with them - have enjoyed well over a century of ways of sidestepping and evading what the Constitution spells out.
Throw them all out. Quickly.
7
The NYTimes always implicitly holds that illegal "immigrants" have a right to remain in this country. But they don't, in this or any other country.
14
The Trump Administration is a crime against human intelligence.
21
Everything described here is true and troubling. But realize there is no constituency in this country for illegal immigrants. This fact is the main reason Trump was elected.
Trump might make a West Virginia coal miner feel good by sending him down into a toxic pit while he at the the same time eliminates his health care insurance and the coal miner will thank Trump for it and vote for him again, as long as that coal miner knows the gays, the minorities and the illegals are getting hit worse.
This is the essence of the mentality of the Trump voter; screw me all you want, as long as every one else is screwed worse.
Trump might make a West Virginia coal miner feel good by sending him down into a toxic pit while he at the the same time eliminates his health care insurance and the coal miner will thank Trump for it and vote for him again, as long as that coal miner knows the gays, the minorities and the illegals are getting hit worse.
This is the essence of the mentality of the Trump voter; screw me all you want, as long as every one else is screwed worse.
19
so sad and so true
It's interesting to see that the comments section of this article is being subjected to massive trolling by right-wingers trying to simulate some kind of popular revulsion against immigrants. Trolling of this kind obliterates the natural trajectory of discussion between citizens and turns public forums into unsafe spaces for genuine dialogue. The right has no understanding or concern for this, but the Times and its ordinary readers should. It was just this kind of manipulation of opinion that led to the NAZI success being so vehemently denied as relevant by the trolls attacking this page today...
17
As I understood it, the Jews referred to in the article were citizens of Germany.
The issue we face with illegal immigrants is that they are NOT citizens of this country.
The difference is that it was very wrong of the Nazi's and the German government to turn against their own citizens and do such horrible things.
I know of no concentration camp where the US government is attempting any similar behavior.
Returning someone to their homeland really isn't the same thing.
So different.
The issue we face with illegal immigrants is that they are NOT citizens of this country.
The difference is that it was very wrong of the Nazi's and the German government to turn against their own citizens and do such horrible things.
I know of no concentration camp where the US government is attempting any similar behavior.
Returning someone to their homeland really isn't the same thing.
So different.
7
Persons are being locked up for years waiting for their cases to be heard, because of the backlogs in the criminal justice system. And it's not just non-citizens, it's people who can't afford $3000 bail (for example) much less a decent lawyer. Yeah it's not "the same" as Auschwitz, but when you constantly encounter the type of apathy that is so common in this society and realize that these systemic failures are not going away any time soon, mostly because nobody gives a damn, can you blame the Times for trying to get people to pay attention by making comparisons to Nazi Germany?
4
"It's interesting to see that the comments section of this article is being subjected to massive trolling by right-wingers trying to simulate some kind of popular revulsion against immigrants."
Get a grip. All the un-educated, pot bellied white males in flyover country are magically called to participate in the NY Times Comment section when illegal immigration is the topic, right.
Or just maybe folks aren't as aligned with your POV as your imagination leads you to believe.
Get a grip. All the un-educated, pot bellied white males in flyover country are magically called to participate in the NY Times Comment section when illegal immigration is the topic, right.
Or just maybe folks aren't as aligned with your POV as your imagination leads you to believe.
Please stop with the irrational, hyperbolic comparisons to 1930's Germany, they could not be more inaccurate and dishonest.
20
The fact that immigration violations are civil (not criminal) is used to deny lawyers in immigration court even to children, as well as a raft of other protections afforded criminal defendants. So if you want to call immigration law violators "criminals", you must also call for immigration courts to meet all standards of criminal courts.
13
Our checks and balances work. We should remain vigilant to this Administration's proclivities to do harm, but I have great confidence that our institutions are greater than any man or woman.
Here's to SCOTUS. Well done.
Here's to SCOTUS. Well done.
That a mere parking ticket in Switzerland would spell a families complete destruction which included expulsion, ex-communication, torture and worse is amply disturbing. However today matters are worse and worse surprisingly in many parts of America.
The comparisons in this article are absurd. Jews in Germany were citizens of Germany, and their citizenship was revoked on the basis of their religion.
Sane Americans want to remove people who are not here legally. In other words, those who violated the law. Perhaps Germany could have stopped speeding, and stopped there. They had other motives. We wish to stop having people cross our borders illegally. We do that by "undoing" the specific crime committed- namely by removing those who came illegally.
Deciding what offense is severe enough to warrant deportation is absurd when one is here illegally. Perhaps it is relevant when one is talking about a crime committed by a legal resident alien (ie a green-card holder who drives 60 in a 55 vs a green-card holder who drives drunk vs a green-card holder who rapes someone).
We are a country. We have borders. They need to be enforced. We have unemployed Americans. If they do not want to fill vacant jobs, force them to or cut off their welfare checks.
But comparing deporting people here illegally to what my grandparents went through in Europe is absurd.
Sane Americans want to remove people who are not here legally. In other words, those who violated the law. Perhaps Germany could have stopped speeding, and stopped there. They had other motives. We wish to stop having people cross our borders illegally. We do that by "undoing" the specific crime committed- namely by removing those who came illegally.
Deciding what offense is severe enough to warrant deportation is absurd when one is here illegally. Perhaps it is relevant when one is talking about a crime committed by a legal resident alien (ie a green-card holder who drives 60 in a 55 vs a green-card holder who drives drunk vs a green-card holder who rapes someone).
We are a country. We have borders. They need to be enforced. We have unemployed Americans. If they do not want to fill vacant jobs, force them to or cut off their welfare checks.
But comparing deporting people here illegally to what my grandparents went through in Europe is absurd.
12
"But comparing deporting people here illegally to what my grandparents went through in Europe is absurd."
After all, these people are not your grandparents and, therefore, they don't deserve to be here, any more than the blacks deserve reparations for what their ancestors went through,
After all, these people are not your grandparents and, therefore, they don't deserve to be here, any more than the blacks deserve reparations for what their ancestors went through,
1
Lamont,
Comparing slaves with those freely here in violation of our laws is why the left deserves to lose.
Comparing slaves with those freely here in violation of our laws is why the left deserves to lose.
2
What part of most people come here from poor countries to escape misery do you not understand.
Trump, with his own ill-considered words is negating everything he says his Homeland Security Department is doing with "extreme vetting." If the immigrants who have been graciously allowed into our country have been vetted why are they also "criminal aliens." His words can be interpreted any way his followers want to do it. When people used to be circumspect with their words before are now just quite open with their hatred for anything out of the ordinary.
Then we have the propensity for casual violence in this country and the easy availability of hundreds of millions of guns. An incendiary combination that is waiting to explode. We need thoughtful people to get together to fight this disease or else we will be swept up in it.
Then we have the propensity for casual violence in this country and the easy availability of hundreds of millions of guns. An incendiary combination that is waiting to explode. We need thoughtful people to get together to fight this disease or else we will be swept up in it.
4
As a prosecutor I was taught to always refer to the defendant as defendant, never by his name. Public defenders always referred to their clients as Mr. So and So. In Colorado it is illegal to refer to defendants as animals, something I suspect is true in many states. Labels have the power to dehumanize. Courts know this. Our so called president is using derogatory labels to color our perception of our neighbors, friends, coworkers and spouses. Don't let him succeed.
21
But doesn't referring to a defendant as "Defendant" instead of "Mr. So-and-so" work to dehumanize the defendant? And doesn't calling them "Mr. So-and-so" work to remind the jury that the person in front of them is a person and therefore is theoretically worthy of respect and compassion much more than a non-human thing? So isn't calling that person a "Defendant" work to dehumanize them as much or almost as much as calling that person a "dog" or a "snake?"
1
@Jackie: No, in my opinion "defendant" is a generic way of addressing the alleged offender, and is tradition more so than meant in any way derogatory or dehumanizing and it protects the anonimity of the accused. Calling people "dogs" or "snakes" however, is extremely derogatory and dehumanizing.
1
We have become such a cruel people, but I think it comes from fear and pain. The fear is fed to us - and has been since 9/11- as a tool to manipulate us. The pain, I think, comes from living in a country that not only will not help and protect its citizens, but demeans us for even suggesting such a thing. Our government has been bought by oligarchs and corporations, who get rich at our expense. And when we have so little compared to people in other nations, we can't help but fear that someone else will take the tiny bit that's ours. And so we become cruel and vicious, buy guns and put up walls, and demonize those we fear might have a job when we don't. It doesn't matter that the jobs were taken by robots, or that the corporations could spare some of their fat profits to pay living wages -- they use their money and influence to convince us that the problem is in us, in each other, not in them. It's the saddest thing I have ever seen.
15
Please. Wanting secure borders that are controlled by the Federal Government is not an indication of anyone being cruel.
Fortunately for you Canada has a large buffer between it and Mexico.
Fortunately for you Canada has a large buffer between it and Mexico.
1
Let me start by saying I oppose the Trump Adminsistration. But misleading use of terms only undermines the writer's argument. There are two misconceptions here which mislead the reader. First, the Administration is not deporting "immigrants," it is deporting "deportable aliens." These terms are clearly defined in the Immigration and Nationality Act. To equate deportable aliens with immigrants insults immigrants. Second, deportation, as practiced under U.S. law, is not a punishment. To send a Frenchman to France or an Australian citizen to Australia, is not punishment unless they have a well founded fear of persecution, in which case they would a third type of person clearly defined in the law, a refugee. With the exception of convicted felons, deportable aliens are given the opportunity for voluntary deportation which allows hem to settle their affairs in the United States before leaving. Only convicted felons and those who did not avail themselves of voluntary deportation are deported at the expense of the Government.
9
"Department of Homeland Security devoted to helping 'victims of crimes committed by criminal aliens.' "
Good. It's important folks understand who are committing what crimes - regardless of the number. Innocent lives are still devastated.
"In his announcement of his run for office, he spoke of Mexican immigrants
as 'rapists.' "
Actually he spoke of Mexican immigrants who were rapists.
"While President Barack Obama set deportation priorities by making a distinction between undocumented immigrants with serious criminal
convictions and everyone else,..."
Democrats, please do vocally propose this dichotomy to the electorate in the next election cycle. There's illegal immigrants with serious criminal convictions and the rest of us. That's the universe alright...
BTW, in the eyes of the Democratic Party leadership, apparently the fraudulent use of a social security number, a felony, is not enough to qualify as a serious criminal conviction. You probably know the story there, but let's save it for an important occasion.
Good. It's important folks understand who are committing what crimes - regardless of the number. Innocent lives are still devastated.
"In his announcement of his run for office, he spoke of Mexican immigrants
as 'rapists.' "
Actually he spoke of Mexican immigrants who were rapists.
"While President Barack Obama set deportation priorities by making a distinction between undocumented immigrants with serious criminal
convictions and everyone else,..."
Democrats, please do vocally propose this dichotomy to the electorate in the next election cycle. There's illegal immigrants with serious criminal convictions and the rest of us. That's the universe alright...
BTW, in the eyes of the Democratic Party leadership, apparently the fraudulent use of a social security number, a felony, is not enough to qualify as a serious criminal conviction. You probably know the story there, but let's save it for an important occasion.
5
"Actually he spoke of Mexican immigrants who were rapists."
And he made certain to ensure that white Americans understood that he was speaking _only_ of Mexican immigrants whom he knew _personally_ to be rapists, in order to make it patently clear that it was not his intention, by any means. to blacken - uh, I mean, "non-whiten," of course - the reputation of the Mexican people as a whole.
And he made certain to ensure that white Americans understood that he was speaking _only_ of Mexican immigrants whom he knew _personally_ to be rapists, in order to make it patently clear that it was not his intention, by any means. to blacken - uh, I mean, "non-whiten," of course - the reputation of the Mexican people as a whole.
2
With respect to the Supreme Court case cited, most readers and the writer, seem to have overlooked the fact that it was President Obama's DoJ that arrested and tried the woman whose case was heard by the Supreme's.
6
Those who discuss criminals in America tend to be unforgiving, extremely so.
Yet Americans themselves tend to be forgiving, a nation of second chances.
The idea that a good life is entirely poisoned by one wrong choice is standard among those who denounce crime and demand punishment, but it is very un-American talking to normal people.
Then we add to that the question of exile. Throw them out for a mistake. No matter what else they are, no matter who they help, no matter what they contribute, just that one thing means to discard them. That is un-American.
Yet those who seek "compromise" seem often to suggest that we draw the line at "criminals." People are not just criminal or not criminal.
Most people break at least one law every day, a traffic law or something similar. Go one mile over the speed limit? They won't ticket for that, right? Jaywalk? This is tax season, and just what spirit did most of us bring to that exercise?
Oh, but "major crime." Really? Close exam would show that line is whatever is wanted by whoever draws the line.
Open borders won't work. It is also not the only alternative to acting like total jerks.
Yet Americans themselves tend to be forgiving, a nation of second chances.
The idea that a good life is entirely poisoned by one wrong choice is standard among those who denounce crime and demand punishment, but it is very un-American talking to normal people.
Then we add to that the question of exile. Throw them out for a mistake. No matter what else they are, no matter who they help, no matter what they contribute, just that one thing means to discard them. That is un-American.
Yet those who seek "compromise" seem often to suggest that we draw the line at "criminals." People are not just criminal or not criminal.
Most people break at least one law every day, a traffic law or something similar. Go one mile over the speed limit? They won't ticket for that, right? Jaywalk? This is tax season, and just what spirit did most of us bring to that exercise?
Oh, but "major crime." Really? Close exam would show that line is whatever is wanted by whoever draws the line.
Open borders won't work. It is also not the only alternative to acting like total jerks.
22
Touching and thoughtful Thank you!
10
Astounding, isn't it, that almost no Democratic lawmakers have challenged him on this weaselly definition of 'criminal' to include just about anybody.
And no wonder. Democratic party orthodoxy holds that there's no difference between US citizens born abroad and immigrants here without permission, except that we just haven't gotten around to punching the tickets for the latter. IF we start talking about who's a criminal and who isn't, next thing you know we'll be admitting that some might be deported. Trump took this free pass, and filled it in the way he wants.
(Irony is, he's not going to deport much of anybody. He just wants to terrify millions of people into the shadows. For GOP employers, a win-win!)
And no wonder. Democratic party orthodoxy holds that there's no difference between US citizens born abroad and immigrants here without permission, except that we just haven't gotten around to punching the tickets for the latter. IF we start talking about who's a criminal and who isn't, next thing you know we'll be admitting that some might be deported. Trump took this free pass, and filled it in the way he wants.
(Irony is, he's not going to deport much of anybody. He just wants to terrify millions of people into the shadows. For GOP employers, a win-win!)
12
"And no wonder. Democratic party orthodoxy holds that there's no difference between US citizens born abroad and immigrants here without permission,..."
If that were true then Senator Obama in 2008 would not have co-authored a senate resolution declaring GOP candidate John McCain duly qualified to be elected president under the natural born citizen provision of the US Constitution.
If that were true then Senator Obama in 2008 would not have co-authored a senate resolution declaring GOP candidate John McCain duly qualified to be elected president under the natural born citizen provision of the US Constitution.
3
" . . . . . someone who commits a crime is not necessarily a criminal."
What torturous logic.
What torturous logic.
11
Really? It's somehow hard to understand that committing murder and having an expired car registration are not the same thing and should not be punished the same way? Too grey for the old black and white mind?
2
Odd thing for a Floridian to say. Killing another human is a crime, and yet that criminality may be erased by a Stand Your Ground defense, which is primarily based on how the shooter felt at the time. Perhaps the statement should read "someone who is accused of a crime may be a criminal, but someone convicted most certainly is."
3
So, you have never driven faster than the speed limit? You have never dropped a gum wrapper on the sidewalk? Have never pocketed even one more sugar from a coffee shop? Never crossed the street before the Walk light came on? If yes to any one of these or any other small "criminal act" you have just branded yourself a criminal.
Tortured logic indeed . . .
Tortured logic indeed . . .
3
This problem endures because Congress had failed for decades to write a realistic Immigration Law. The GOP controlled Congress is incapable of writing a coherent law to address this overdue issue.
The second prong of the problem is human's love to hate the "other" that vermin caused all my problems. If we could destroy the vermin all would be wonderful. Nazi Germany honed this anger into the final solution, although it has existed and will continue to exist all over the world.
The second prong of the problem is human's love to hate the "other" that vermin caused all my problems. If we could destroy the vermin all would be wonderful. Nazi Germany honed this anger into the final solution, although it has existed and will continue to exist all over the world.
16
First, I have to say the young girl at left in the picture has a striking resemblance to Rachel Dratch. I can't help wondering if there is family connection.
As to the sad theme of the article, I think the author has a point; however, there is little practical advice on how to effectively combat the trend or diffuse the hate politics involved.
As to the sad theme of the article, I think the author has a point; however, there is little practical advice on how to effectively combat the trend or diffuse the hate politics involved.
Its an insult to compare the bureaucratic machinations for determining which crimes meet the standard to have an illegal border invader sent home to what the Nazis did. You lose your moral high ground when you stoop that low.
17
Steve the Nazis started small too, it grew to the horrific history we know today. When the rules that these deportations are supposed to be following are being stretched, rewritten & bastardized we as a country have helped another Autocratic leader decide who is fit to live here and who isn't. He set publicly that only criminals would be deported but when they stand in wait for a child to turn 18, on his actual birthday no less, and then arrest him and place him in adult detention, we have another leader who is backhanding his own public policy to meet a quota he promised but can't deliver on. Where are the criminals who committed felonies? We're not hearing about them...cause they're not meeting his HUGE quota so ICE is making the policy fit their needs not the laws needs.
When the Supreme Court has issues with it...and it leans right...we should be worried where this will leave us in history. We may exceed the atrocities of Hitler...don't think it's possible? We already have a leader who isn't playing by the rules or the constitution and his followers are just as blind as Hitler s party was!
When the Supreme Court has issues with it...and it leans right...we should be worried where this will leave us in history. We may exceed the atrocities of Hitler...don't think it's possible? We already have a leader who isn't playing by the rules or the constitution and his followers are just as blind as Hitler s party was!
3
"You lose your moral high ground when you stoop that low."
What if you stoop only low enough to enforce Jim Crow and condone lynching, in order to protect the virtue of white women?
What if you stoop only low enough to enforce Jim Crow and condone lynching, in order to protect the virtue of white women?
1
I am disgusted with the conflation of the plight of the Jews in Germany in the '30s and during WWII with illegal immigrants in the United States. The Jews in Germany for the most part were born there, and grew up there, and were ultimately sent to death camps.
Illegal aliens in the US came of their own accord, knowing they were breaking our laws, but taking a gamble.
Illegal aliens in the US came of their own accord, knowing they were breaking our laws, but taking a gamble.
21
You can be disgusted if you like, but Germany only became the country we know today in 1871. Likewise, the parts of Mexico that are not the USA only became so in 1845. There are many from Mexico who would say to you that they were born here, too. And let's not forget the Hispanic kids who were born here that he and his administration also want to deprive of their civil rights. They were also born here and grew up here. It would serve you to have a broader and more nuanced view of history.
1
Not so fast. Children born here can also be sent "back" to places they have never lived.
3
"The Jews in Germany for the most part were born there,& grew up there".The immigrants "for the most part were born here",dreamers, children forced to come here w/their parents;went to school here,graduated here,went to college here,got jobs here,started families,started businesses.Those that fought for their country(our country)because it's the only one they've known,who died for it..those patriots are being rounded up as criminals & sent "back" to a country they've never known & whose people hate them for being American born & some will be sent to their deaths(our generations versions of death camps but at the hands of other countries).We're willing to turn a blind eye to these deaths bcause they aren't happening here.It just hasn't gotten to astronomical numbers yet,but it's getting there!ICE literally stalked an underage child who was staying at a children's shelter (a children's shelter!),his parents were hunted & killed by cartels & was brutally abused as a child,he had already applied for asylum.As he celebrated his 18th b day,ICE entered the shelter & took him into custody stating he was an adult now & subject to deportation.How are they not doing their homework? This child already has a case w/immigration for asylum. ICE stated they'll review his case (when? no reply).He's now being held @an adult detention facility...When Supreme Court Justice Roberts,conservative king, has an issue with it,we all should.
2
To the best of my knowledge, by law, being in this country illegally is not a crime, but a misdemeanor. Those here illegally are not by that definition criminals. But that is not the question.
The question is whether of not, according to the law, people in this country illegally are to be deported. If the law says that is what is to be done, then that is what is to be done. If laws are not to be obeyed, then why do we have laws? Are we not supposed to be ruled by law not whim, and are our public officials not therefore obligated to enforce those laws? If they do not enforce those laws are they not at fault and derelict in their duties? I believe that they are.
The question is whether of not, according to the law, people in this country illegally are to be deported. If the law says that is what is to be done, then that is what is to be done. If laws are not to be obeyed, then why do we have laws? Are we not supposed to be ruled by law not whim, and are our public officials not therefore obligated to enforce those laws? If they do not enforce those laws are they not at fault and derelict in their duties? I believe that they are.
16
If a person enters the US through a border point legally and then overstays the amount of time they are allowed to stay in the US, it is not even a misdemeanor - it is no crime at all. Also, deportation is a civil remedy, not a criminal one.
1
Donald, it is not as simple as you'd like it to be. You can claim the high ground, but it is because of America's meddling in Latin America that dictators took over in many countries and made life impossible for their citizens. How do you not believe that we Americans have a moral obligation to address the wrongs of the past?
1
donald surr: Are you absolutely sure it's the law that concerns you?
1
Where are the Democrats making the moral and financial arguments agaisnt these policies?
Democrats, the Where's Waldo of politics.
Democrats, the Where's Waldo of politics.
6
BoRegard: I didn't see your moral and/ or financial arguments in favor of such arguments.
footnote to my last post
therefore we need heavenly divine love to come down to the earth and begin to save humans from a system out to turn them all into criminals
therefore we need heavenly divine love to come down to the earth and begin to save humans from a system out to turn them all into criminals
This constant suggestion that enforcing our immigration laws is akin to Nazism is preposterous. Illegals are illegals. They are not entitled to make our laws on immigration for us. People are not "in this country without status." They are breaking our immigration laws. The punishment for doing so should nearly always be deportation. Let Mexicans and other Latino nations take care of their own unskilled underclass instead of shipping them here.
11
So those here illegally from Canada or Ireland can stay, is basically what you are saying.
So, who is hiring all these illegal residents? Americans with farming, construction and other businesses, that's who. Such hypocrisy! If Republicans fined employers for hiring non-citizens, non-citizens would not be working for American businesses. It is simple. But no one ever said governing was simple, except of course, for our astonished president.
26
All an employer is required to do under the law is look at a Social Security card and get a completed I-9 form. Illegal "immigrants" supply forged Social Security cards (every bit as genuine looking as yours) and perjure themselves to complete an I-9. As a result, employers hire illegal workers every day and break no laws. We need mandatory eVerify. So far, the only states that have pushed this through are Republican states.
http://www.lawlogix.com/e-verify-map/
http://www.lawlogix.com/e-verify-map/
5
As there are visa programs established for the professions you name, it should be OK for the employers to use them to bring in necessary workers legally.
1
Under current immigration law - which we can change if we want to -- being in the country without legal authorization is sufficient grounds to make someone leave. No further crime needs to be committed. If I were to enter another country and never leave, if told to leave I'd have a pretty weak defense pointing out that I'd never been convicted of any crimes while there and certainly hadn't committed any major crimes. I'd suggest to anyone visiting any country other than their own, especially if they have no legal right to be there, that they follow all laws carefully while there, including the traffic laws. (German Jews, of course, had every right to be there.)
14
"German Jews, of course, had every right to be there [in Germany]."
According to whose laws? Those of Hitler, Goehring, and Goebbels?
According to whose laws? Those of Hitler, Goehring, and Goebbels?
1
Every country is different, and has different degrees of cohesiveness. If the people of Switzerland want to revoke the citizenship of naturalized foreigners and their descendants so be it.
Humankind has been tribal since its inception. People just feel more comfortable with people who look like them and who share the same values.
We pretend it is different here in the US, but in reality each "tribe" is clustered together. Blacks, Indians, Chinese, Europeans, Spanish people, etc. they all tend to cluster together and feel alienated with the others.
Humankind has been tribal since its inception. People just feel more comfortable with people who look like them and who share the same values.
We pretend it is different here in the US, but in reality each "tribe" is clustered together. Blacks, Indians, Chinese, Europeans, Spanish people, etc. they all tend to cluster together and feel alienated with the others.
5
We may be naturally tribal, but in the U.S. most of us are mutts. Ask yourself, what is your family tree like? Is it pure anything? Probably not. It may be true that immigrants from different countries and backgrounds initially tend to flock together in certain neighborhoods or businesses, but within a generation or two, significant numbers are building families outside of their own "tribe." This is the plurality of culture and religion that has made America great, but that continues to confuse and challenge us because we don't actually have many truly "American" shared values that all of us agree on without even having to think about it. People who live in nations where cultural norms have been widely understood and shared for centuries generally have an easier time with collective decision-making, sometimes terrible ones, sometimes important and necessary ones. But, if we recognize our plurality as a strength and work toward better defining and articulating our shared values then we can all be part of the tribe and have a better sense of which way is is up and which is down, both seem to be up for discussion right now.
2
I disagree. Multiculturalism is not the historic goal of US immigration policy. Assimilate.
4
"the people of Switzerland"
Which "people of Switzerland," Your? The Germans? The Italians? The French? The Romauntsch? The Catholics? The Calvinists?
"Humankind has been tribal since its inception."
How do you know that, Your? Were you there?
"Blacks, Indians, Chinese, Europeans, Spanish people, etc. they all tend to cluster together and feel alienated with the others."
When laws such as Jim Crow and apartheid and caste are enacted to ensure that that will be the case, Your.
By the way, when did "Spanish people"cease to be "Europeans"?
Which "people of Switzerland," Your? The Germans? The Italians? The French? The Romauntsch? The Catholics? The Calvinists?
"Humankind has been tribal since its inception."
How do you know that, Your? Were you there?
"Blacks, Indians, Chinese, Europeans, Spanish people, etc. they all tend to cluster together and feel alienated with the others."
When laws such as Jim Crow and apartheid and caste are enacted to ensure that that will be the case, Your.
By the way, when did "Spanish people"cease to be "Europeans"?
1
Illegal immigrants are citizens of foreign countries.
12
They are, Ed? Should we start rounding up the descendants of the so-called "displaced persons" of WWII and send them back where their ancestors came from?
2
If we're going to be revoking anybody's citizenship, let's start with Trump.
"people who by their nature are insensitive to society’s norms, drawn to violate the law by self-interest or malice."
You just described the entire Trump administration. Here is the basis of most of their millions--or billions. This isn't simply a kleptocracy, though, and any correlation that can be drawn between these animals and the Nazis is legitimate and necessary. This IS the way fascism works. The people at the top must share a criminal mindset, a belief in their own superiority, entitlement, and exclusivity, and they must constantly demonstrate a psychopathic disdain for the rights of others. Then they go about separating out different groups to be Others. Supporters look the other way as their neighbors disappear, then move into their empty houses. Never underestimate the human proclivity for cowardice, especially in service to self-interest.
You just described the entire Trump administration. Here is the basis of most of their millions--or billions. This isn't simply a kleptocracy, though, and any correlation that can be drawn between these animals and the Nazis is legitimate and necessary. This IS the way fascism works. The people at the top must share a criminal mindset, a belief in their own superiority, entitlement, and exclusivity, and they must constantly demonstrate a psychopathic disdain for the rights of others. Then they go about separating out different groups to be Others. Supporters look the other way as their neighbors disappear, then move into their empty houses. Never underestimate the human proclivity for cowardice, especially in service to self-interest.
12
There's a bit of difference between deporting economic migrants who arrive illegally, sending them back to their home countries, and rounding up citizens on cocked up pretexts and sending them to their deaths in concentration camps. So there's that.
Only a "philosopher" at an ivy league training ground for plutocrats could obfuscate what " illegal immigration" means - it means entry through unlawful methods. Unlawful means a criminal act of whatever degree. According to this fool though, jaywalking is punishable while unlawful entry is not. You may receive a summons for the one-fingered, constitutionally-protected salute to a cop, but you get a pass if you paid a smuggler to sneak you through border crossings. On the other hand, idiocy like this helps drive more and more voters into the growing swell of the dissatisfied, the disrespected and the degraded. Our army grows. One can always count on the left's ability to bring about the polar opposite of their intent. The implosion of their political party home, just underway after the typically stupid comments of their newly elected hater-in-chief who clearly favors infanticide over bridge-building. Deliciously ironic; spectacularly idiotic - even for a party chair in the unhinged mode of Howard Dean. Let's have more.
The voting pubilc's anger over illegal immigration was a major factor that put Trump in office. For many decades US immigration laws were not enforced. People got a free pass if they could get in. The pressure to "do something" on the problem built up after Reagan's amnesty and what happened was a bunch of executive orders from Obama basically allowing an illegal who got in and didn't commit any major violent crimes, to stay.
Many American voters want our immigration laws enforced. To compare foreign nationals being sent home to a non-violent country to native born Jews murdered by their own Nazi government is insulting.
Why do immigrants get to pick and choose which laws they follow?
There is no nation without a border. Does this nation have borders or not? There are 7.5 billion humans in the world now. At least 10% would come immediately if they could. The world population is just too big to take in everyone. People need to stay home and fix their countries. Just like America needs to fix this country and take care of our own citizens.
And by the way, I did not vote for Trump.
Many American voters want our immigration laws enforced. To compare foreign nationals being sent home to a non-violent country to native born Jews murdered by their own Nazi government is insulting.
Why do immigrants get to pick and choose which laws they follow?
There is no nation without a border. Does this nation have borders or not? There are 7.5 billion humans in the world now. At least 10% would come immediately if they could. The world population is just too big to take in everyone. People need to stay home and fix their countries. Just like America needs to fix this country and take care of our own citizens.
And by the way, I did not vote for Trump.
Donald Trump's love of whipping up mob frenzy, his public espousal of violence, his failure to swiftly and sincerely disavow the allegiance of white supremacists, his deplorable criticisms of a free press and a free judiciary, his blatant cashing in on the office of the presidency and his adulation of dictators and tyrants are all sickening. I am not ashamed to be a citizen of the United States, because my country is far more than the unqualified and unstable person holding the office of president right now, but I am deeply ashamed that so many of my fellow citizens find anything admirable in this man.
25
Well said!!!
3
The continual comparing of Trump and his stance on illegal immigration with Nazi Germany and the treatment of jews does a disservice to your cause and is embarrassing to those with a grasp of history.
12
Donald Trump's military draft dodging German grandfather came to America evading German Bavarian criminal prosecution. Whether or not Trump's Scottish mother come to America legally is unknown. Melania Trump's questionable legal immigration status has never been carefully clarified and cleared.
Unlike the Holocaust which occurred in foreign countries with foreigners acting against foreigners, both the holocausts of humanity denying African enslavement and equality defying African Jim Crow involved action by Americans against other Americans in America.
Black African Americans have long been the favored designated criminal caste class in America. See 'The New Jim Crow" by Michelle Alexander; 'The Condemnation of Blackness' by Khalil Muhammad; 'Locking Up Our Own' by James Foreman, Jr.
Unlike the Holocaust which occurred in foreign countries with foreigners acting against foreigners, both the holocausts of humanity denying African enslavement and equality defying African Jim Crow involved action by Americans against other Americans in America.
Black African Americans have long been the favored designated criminal caste class in America. See 'The New Jim Crow" by Michelle Alexander; 'The Condemnation of Blackness' by Khalil Muhammad; 'Locking Up Our Own' by James Foreman, Jr.
4
They said they finally wanted to do what the court had missed doing all these years: to get rid of all Jews with criminal records.
A gas chamber is a far cry from mere deportation. The parallels are more than just a little far apart. But nice try.
A gas chamber is a far cry from mere deportation. The parallels are more than just a little far apart. But nice try.
6
If you're in the country illegally, you're a criminal.
Too many Americans - I call them Trump Nazi's - are unaware of the parallels between the Trump administration and Nazi Germany. The parallels are real and terrifying. The Nazi's started early, making Jews, gays and anyone else they did not like "other," and slowly convinced the German people that these people were not human and a threat to them and their country. Thus came the concentration camps and the slaughter.
It did not happen overnight, but was a careful and meticulous plan developed and implemented over years. Trump has only been in office 100 days and already he is ahead of the Nazi's. It is not a joke. It is a tragedy and a horror show, and no one - not even the NY Times (the LA Times has taken the strongest editorial stance thus far) - is taking it seriously enough. We had better wake up, and fast.
It did not happen overnight, but was a careful and meticulous plan developed and implemented over years. Trump has only been in office 100 days and already he is ahead of the Nazi's. It is not a joke. It is a tragedy and a horror show, and no one - not even the NY Times (the LA Times has taken the strongest editorial stance thus far) - is taking it seriously enough. We had better wake up, and fast.
Most Americans don't think of unauthorized immigrants as criminals. They think of them as people who are unlawfully residing in the United States. America doesn't punish unauthorized immigrants for violating immigration laws, even though illegally entering the country and working without authorization are felony offenses for which they could be fined and/or incarcerated. Instead, America simply requires them to stop violating immigration laws and return to their home countries. Comparing this to this to the Nazi Holocaust is absurd.
16
You are mistaken about the heart of this issue. Maslenjak v. United States is about a NATURALIZED CITIZEN of the United States, not an unauthorized immigrant. The question here is can a person who has followed all the requirements to become a citizen and been formally naturalized be stripped of their citizenship based on the revelation that they made ANY false statement during the process of becoming a citizen, even something as minor as failing to disclose the fact that they once exceeded the speed limit or parked illegally. Stripping a citizen of their citizenship is very serious indeed, and comparison to the tactics which led up to the holocaust is not unreasonable.
6
Just another step to making America into a fascist state: there is no one, other than babies who can't speak, who has never lied; therefore, everyone is guilty at the very least of this transgression. The government is giving itself authority to exhile anyone, absolutely anyone, they wish. First they'll get rid of the recent immigrants (except the white people because they want more of those), then dark-skinned citizens, then Asians, then gays, then atheists, then anyone who is not white and Christian, then anyone who dares to question the party line. Welcome to Gilead.
10
Then anyone who is not white and Christian and Protestant.
When Donald Trump keeps telling his supporters, to assault protesters, at his rallies, at some point someone will start shooting peaceful marchers, during say a Washington rally against the Climate Change policies of this administration. Or perhaps at a march for Women's rights, or support for Science that brings thousands out into our streets.
Donald Trump is enraged when he sees these crowds, marching against his policies, and I worry what will happen next.
See Episode 3 of the Handmaids Tale...
Donald Trump is enraged when he sees these crowds, marching against his policies, and I worry what will happen next.
See Episode 3 of the Handmaids Tale...
1
This is a slippery slope piece but the knife cuts in two directions. While I take the authors point can he not see that for too long we let the pendulum swing in the other direction?
In order for a country to function it needs laws and those laws need to be enforced. When they are not or when obeying the law becomes arbitrary you wind up in our current situation. One of my kids friends once asked me when we were discussing the illegal immigrant situation, "OK they get to break our laws, They are here in violation of the law, they use other peoples SSA numbers to work and they drive without license or insurance. Which laws do I get to ignore". When I told him that they did indeed do that and no he didn't get any laws he as a citizen could ignore he felt as he put it that kinda sucks.
He was right it does.
In order for a country to function it needs laws and those laws need to be enforced. When they are not or when obeying the law becomes arbitrary you wind up in our current situation. One of my kids friends once asked me when we were discussing the illegal immigrant situation, "OK they get to break our laws, They are here in violation of the law, they use other peoples SSA numbers to work and they drive without license or insurance. Which laws do I get to ignore". When I told him that they did indeed do that and no he didn't get any laws he as a citizen could ignore he felt as he put it that kinda sucks.
He was right it does.
4
Why are progressive Americans fearful of comparing Trump to Hitler & radical ,Republican Conservatives to the third Reich.Trump has successfully used Hitler tactics to gain the support of the ultra right & win the election . Bannon is his Goering.The only difference is the Jews are not necessarily, the scapegoats, & have been replaced by the Mexicans. & Muslims. It is the Mexicans that are the rapists, drug Dealers, & animals., and Muslims potential terrorists. generalizations are running amok.
If it looks like a Skunk & smells like a Skunk it is a Skunk, or in this case a Nazi.
If it looks like a Skunk & smells like a Skunk it is a Skunk, or in this case a Nazi.
3
The problem in the 1930's was that the real thugs and criminals were in charge of the German government. The problem today is that the President of the United States is selectively borrowing from the Nazi's playbook. Pick an obvious target - dark-skinned people, Muslims, Mexicans - then beef up "security" and give them special powers to arrest, detain, and terrorize; create a climate of hate and fear; ratchet-up the climate of fear with sabre rattling against other countries; cozy-up to other fascist thugs, such as Putin, Erdogan, and Dutarte; be ready, at a moment's notice to declare Martial Law.
The big difference between then and now is that now we have the internet. In the thirties the Fascists used the Radio very effectively to disseminate their message. The internet appears to have a greater potential to polarize, to magnify differences, and to mobilize ideological factions. Where we go with this depends on the American people.
The big difference between then and now is that now we have the internet. In the thirties the Fascists used the Radio very effectively to disseminate their message. The internet appears to have a greater potential to polarize, to magnify differences, and to mobilize ideological factions. Where we go with this depends on the American people.
6
Quite telling. Liberals go nuts when Sean Spicer compares Assad to Hitler. But of course it is fine to compare Trump to Hitler.
10
Thanks for letting me know I've made a difference. If you can't see the danger of normalizing Trump, all the worse for you.
2
This is why we hold the second amendment very dear. Protect yourself kids, it's not just right wing wackos that should be prepping.
And once Trump has finished with the Mexican, he with turn to the criminal African Americans. He has already suggested that maybe he should send troops into Chicago to control the violence.
1
You know it is not only Mexicans who are subject to our immigration policy.
2
"Who is a criminal"? How about the buffoon sitting in the oval office? Does treason count as a crime?
2
The difference between the "criminal" undocumented and our corrupt, liar-in-chief? THEY got "caught." HE'S still walking free. Oh, and THEY have much better morals.
1
If you want a solid understanding of Nazi Germany, the rise of Adolph Hitler, and the forces that powered both, read "Ominous Parallels" by Leonard Peikoff.
3
Snakes ???? OMG..... how very, very sad.... how very, very disgusting....
the snake will someday welcome trump with open arms.... for eternity...
the snake will someday welcome trump with open arms.... for eternity...
2
Let's not dance around the issue. Trump is riding a wave of racism to restore the nation to its mythical whiteness in exactly the same way that every despot uses "the other" to make it seem like its OK. Sessions and ICE aren't going after MS-13. No, that would be dangerous. It's much easier to pick off these brown people at the workplace, or grab the DACA kid or their parents. Hell, they can even jackboot into a courthouse as they do in NJ to pick off those waiting to testify in court against real criminals.
Our President postures, struts and brays about the criminal element and simultaneously breaks bread with Rodrigo Duterte, a man who openly authorized the extrajudicial killing of drug addicts and dealers... to shoot them down like mad dogs in the street. There is no veneer on this. President Trump must be impeached before he drags the nation into the gutter of history.
Our President postures, struts and brays about the criminal element and simultaneously breaks bread with Rodrigo Duterte, a man who openly authorized the extrajudicial killing of drug addicts and dealers... to shoot them down like mad dogs in the street. There is no veneer on this. President Trump must be impeached before he drags the nation into the gutter of history.
3
He already did that when he ignored Angela Merkel's offer to shake hands. He squatted on a chair, didn't recognize her, and remained his own special boorish self. He thinks he should stop paying for NATO? Is that because his buddy Putin wants to take over the Baltic States? Where are those tax records showing all the loans he received from Russian oligarchs in London? They were washed through The Bank of Cyprus and Deutsche Bank. The recent gift of 95 million was a fake pass of money for property not worth that much. Trump is constantly near bankruptcy; he is always bailed out by a Russian crook with money stolen from the Russian treasury. Now, Trump and his family can steal our money directly, despite the Emoluments Clause.
Boarder = one who comes on board, or rents space in a dwelling.
Border = the edge of something, or what people cross, legally or illegally, to seek life in a new country.
Please, please please. So sick of seeing intelligent people screw this up.
Next week, kiddies, there, they're and their.
Which and that can wait until grad school.
Border = the edge of something, or what people cross, legally or illegally, to seek life in a new country.
Please, please please. So sick of seeing intelligent people screw this up.
Next week, kiddies, there, they're and their.
Which and that can wait until grad school.
4
Thank you. Unfortunately auto-correct affects spelling when it is least expected and thwarts our best intentions.
2
I’m not surprised that the author was able to write a book titled "How Propaganda Works”. She seems to have used this knowledge by conflating Jews who were being sent to death chambers with economic migrants. Why have Mexicans and Central Americans come here illegally? There are relatively safe areas in Mexico where they could have moved (such as the Yucatan) and where they could go now.
13
You might take the time to read an article before commenting. The author's name is Jason, usually not a "she."
3
Or, the US could have cooperated with Mexico to build decent refugee housing near the southern Mexico border with services, schools, add manufacturing or service job training. A significant reason for people fleeing violence in Central America and parts of Mexico is violence.
Similar approach could have been done to help Syrians & Iraqis fleeing Assad & ISIS - really decent housing, utilities, schools, job training. Located in Turkey, Safe parts of Iraq, Jordan, etc. What ever it cost it would have been cheap at three times the cost and kept them close to their homes.
Obama and EU were beyond stupid in dealing with the refugee issue.
Similar approach could have been done to help Syrians & Iraqis fleeing Assad & ISIS - really decent housing, utilities, schools, job training. Located in Turkey, Safe parts of Iraq, Jordan, etc. What ever it cost it would have been cheap at three times the cost and kept them close to their homes.
Obama and EU were beyond stupid in dealing with the refugee issue.
3
First: Jordan has already taken in more refugees than it can accommodate.
Second: Turkey is an oppressive religious theocracy, at odds with the Syrian refugees. Turkey has closed its borders to Syrians.
Third: Iraq is a fractured country: Sunnis in Central Iraq; Kurds up North; Shia aligned with Iran in the South. The Sunnis are fighting for their political life against the dominant Shia government. They can't take in Syrian Sunnis.
Fourth: A safe zone in Syria is sensible, if we had an occupying army to stay there and keep it safe. We don't; we have a high tech military; occupying armies went out with WWII, and later Korea. We do have some troops in So, Korea, but if they are at risk, my guess is they will be pulled out.
We have a bloated, expensive unaudited Pentagon. We have purchased F35's unwanted by the Marines and the Army. They are not as good as the old F18's.
We are not a major manufacturing country at this time; we do not have a large in flow of money earned in the rust belt. We have outsourced jobs to China. We have allowed corporations to take their profits off shore; they are now trying for a one-off where they can bring their money home at 28% or even 15%, not the corporate rate of 33%. They have not guaranteed to provide jobs for that tax largesse. If you think GE or GM is going to pay their share of taxes, I have a bridge for you. They will use our marketing venues, and our airports and roads, sans a fair tax for that use.
Second: Turkey is an oppressive religious theocracy, at odds with the Syrian refugees. Turkey has closed its borders to Syrians.
Third: Iraq is a fractured country: Sunnis in Central Iraq; Kurds up North; Shia aligned with Iran in the South. The Sunnis are fighting for their political life against the dominant Shia government. They can't take in Syrian Sunnis.
Fourth: A safe zone in Syria is sensible, if we had an occupying army to stay there and keep it safe. We don't; we have a high tech military; occupying armies went out with WWII, and later Korea. We do have some troops in So, Korea, but if they are at risk, my guess is they will be pulled out.
We have a bloated, expensive unaudited Pentagon. We have purchased F35's unwanted by the Marines and the Army. They are not as good as the old F18's.
We are not a major manufacturing country at this time; we do not have a large in flow of money earned in the rust belt. We have outsourced jobs to China. We have allowed corporations to take their profits off shore; they are now trying for a one-off where they can bring their money home at 28% or even 15%, not the corporate rate of 33%. They have not guaranteed to provide jobs for that tax largesse. If you think GE or GM is going to pay their share of taxes, I have a bridge for you. They will use our marketing venues, and our airports and roads, sans a fair tax for that use.
I agree with this article in principle, but differ on one important point: deporting illegal immigrants who have absolutely NO legal right to set up legal residence in the U.S. is reasonable & well within the rights of the law. They knowingly circumvented our laws when they entered and cut in front of those who are patiently waiting in line to immigrate legally.
When the article states: "To drag someone out of the life they have painstakingly created over many years, for something as petty as traffic violations or shoplifting, is a gross violation of the proportionality principle — that the punishment should fit the crime".
This kind of liberal rationalization (along with the hysterical mantra "Don't separate families!!" drives me crazy. If they wanted to create a life here, they should have followed the rules and come here LEGALLY.
When the article states: "To drag someone out of the life they have painstakingly created over many years, for something as petty as traffic violations or shoplifting, is a gross violation of the proportionality principle — that the punishment should fit the crime".
This kind of liberal rationalization (along with the hysterical mantra "Don't separate families!!" drives me crazy. If they wanted to create a life here, they should have followed the rules and come here LEGALLY.
14
...and what exactly happens to the employers without whom there wouldn't be an undocumented worker problem?
I mean if we throw a few hundred employers in jail for five years for hiring undocumented the lure vanishes overnight.
But we all know Wal-Mart, Target, Home Depot etc. wouldn't survive without hiring undocumented workers and of they say jump rghtst politicans say how high?
This is why rights are such pathetic jokes.
All they do is whine without offering solutions.
I mean if we throw a few hundred employers in jail for five years for hiring undocumented the lure vanishes overnight.
But we all know Wal-Mart, Target, Home Depot etc. wouldn't survive without hiring undocumented workers and of they say jump rghtst politicans say how high?
This is why rights are such pathetic jokes.
All they do is whine without offering solutions.
3
I am curious. In our country we have something called the "statute of limitations" (both federal and state) which limit the timeframe in which someone can be charged with any but a few very clear crimes (e.g. murder). Someone who commits a violent rape or assault can only be charged during the period covered by the statute of limitations (3-7 years, generally, depending on the state). Yet under our immigration law, someone whose only "crime" was coming into this country without authorization, creates a solid life for him/herself, has a family, starts a business, pays taxes etc, can be deported at any time, even 20 years after arriving her, despite having never committed "another" crime. Does that make any sense? If it does to you, then I question your ethics, your morality, your compassion.......
2
This is incredible!!!
"To test the severity of that position", to revoke the citizenship of someone "who made even trivial misstatements in their naturalization proceedings,”, "Chief Justice John G. Roberts, Jr., confessed to a crime — driving 60 miles an hour in a 55-mile-an-hour zone many years ago without being caught. He then asked if a person who had not disclosed such an incident in his citizenship application could have his citizenship revoked. The lawyer answered, yes. There was “indignation and incredulity” expressed by the members of the Court."
Instead of indignation and incredulity, the court should have kicked out this lawyer with a vacuous mind forthright from the courtroom and perhaps even hold him in contempt of court for wasting court's valuable time!!
"To test the severity of that position", to revoke the citizenship of someone "who made even trivial misstatements in their naturalization proceedings,”, "Chief Justice John G. Roberts, Jr., confessed to a crime — driving 60 miles an hour in a 55-mile-an-hour zone many years ago without being caught. He then asked if a person who had not disclosed such an incident in his citizenship application could have his citizenship revoked. The lawyer answered, yes. There was “indignation and incredulity” expressed by the members of the Court."
Instead of indignation and incredulity, the court should have kicked out this lawyer with a vacuous mind forthright from the courtroom and perhaps even hold him in contempt of court for wasting court's valuable time!!
6
“the government may revoke the citizenship of Americans who made even trivial misstatements in their naturalization proceedings,” including not disclosing a criminal offense of any kind, even if there was no arrest.
The Constitution forbids 'unusual punishment'. Yet here, an individual is expected to admit to an offense that was never judged as a crime? According to the lawyer arguing this case, every time I break a speed limit, I am obliged to send a check to the State. And failure to comply can lead to expulsion from the country.
What a sense of disgust to read about arguments in front of the Supreme Court that appear to put us on a par with the practices of Nazi Germany.
How can we have sunk so low in the space of 100 days?
The Constitution forbids 'unusual punishment'. Yet here, an individual is expected to admit to an offense that was never judged as a crime? According to the lawyer arguing this case, every time I break a speed limit, I am obliged to send a check to the State. And failure to comply can lead to expulsion from the country.
What a sense of disgust to read about arguments in front of the Supreme Court that appear to put us on a par with the practices of Nazi Germany.
How can we have sunk so low in the space of 100 days?
6
All of us stole land.
6
Back in 1963 late at night in the San Fernando Valley on the San Diego Freeway I put my New Plymouth Sport Fury Convertible with the Golden Commando engine through its paces. Unfortunately there was a patrol car in the same area. By the time they stopped me I had exited the freeway and was on Van Nuys Blvd. they claim they clocked me at 100mph and I was pulling away. Those days the freeway was wide open. Not like today. So they just wrote me a ticket which I paid, dearly! According to this article that indiscretion might get me exported after stripping me of my citizenship for the violation if targeted.
Is this the way it started in Nazi Germany? Reckless driving can cause an accident. Reckless policies can destroy a nation.
Is this the way it started in Nazi Germany? Reckless driving can cause an accident. Reckless policies can destroy a nation.
5
Agreed.
But with nativists, racists, and jingoists, none of these cogent arguments matters.
But with nativists, racists, and jingoists, none of these cogent arguments matters.
When is Trump ever going to give that press conference he promised to explain how Melania got citizenship?
12
People applauded while Trump referred to immigrants as snakes. But we can't say they are deplorable can we?
This is Trump and his administration's twisted, dehumanizing way of trying to rid America of as many non-whites as possible.
2
"you are what I say you are". Heaven help us, I think we are in real trouble.
2
First they came for the communists, then the homosexuals, then the catholics. When they came for me there was no one left to protest.
This has happened before.
This has happened before.
3
Is it appropriate for China to populate Tibet to control it, and overwhelm the native population? No. It's the same for us in the US to use the law, and enforcement of the law, to not be overwhelmed by non-citizens.
It is the right of Americans to determine WHO enters and stays in this country. What about the rights to maintain a country's borders? And customs and lifestyle? And to know the real identity and risk/compatibility of anyone who enters.
And part of that is to deny the entry or stay of anyone who has broken any of those immigration laws. There are MILLIONS of legal immigrants and naturalized citizens who followed the rules and laws.
Your Op-Ed spits in the face of the law abiding legal immigrant and naturalized citizen, and US born citizens, and destabilizes our country.
Stop printing this pro-illegal immigrant nonsense, NYT.
It is the right of Americans to determine WHO enters and stays in this country. What about the rights to maintain a country's borders? And customs and lifestyle? And to know the real identity and risk/compatibility of anyone who enters.
And part of that is to deny the entry or stay of anyone who has broken any of those immigration laws. There are MILLIONS of legal immigrants and naturalized citizens who followed the rules and laws.
Your Op-Ed spits in the face of the law abiding legal immigrant and naturalized citizen, and US born citizens, and destabilizes our country.
Stop printing this pro-illegal immigrant nonsense, NYT.
9
Customs and lifestyles change, even within a single generation. Do you want to go back to the mandatory laws of the Puritans of what you can wear based on your status and be forced to attend a certain church and if you dare snooze during the sermon, be hit on the head by a deacon? That was the custom in this country at one point. And this good Puritans weren't even here legally to begin with! But the customs and lifestyles we have today are based on 300 years of absorbing the cultures of various groups that came to this country and made it their own. Thankfully for my immigrant ancestors, they didn't have the immigration laws of today, or I might not be here. And even with those laws that they did have, I'm sure my great-grandmother came in under another name to join her injured husband who was here legally. Does that mean that all of my family should be sent back to Poland? As another person commented, most everything but murder has a statute of limitations, most no longer than 20 years. If our politicians were reasonable, since they have enabled and encouraged illegal immigration for at least that long, they would pass a means for those here with established lives that are not current lawbreakers to become legal, without having to leave the country for 10 years! But they won't, because they are too craven and hard-hearted.
This brings to mind also eugenics, where the genetic qualities of a race can be improved by the control of human mating, where the converse is not allowing certain people to mate. Those individuals who are not thought to possess qualities that the state deems correct can be forced to become sterilized. Maybe almost unheard of now, but in the early 20th century, this was a powerful force in this country (and then later in Germany with Hitler). A criminal could be someone who is deaf or blind. This current administrations's hard line could become even harder.
2
But you need to look at the history. It was the progressives who wanted eugenics. Oliver Wendall Holmes wrote the majority opinion that "three generations of imbeciles is enough." Margaret Sanger was a strong proponent.
I love it how progressives, once they realize how bad their policies were, try to say it was the conservatives. Woodrow Wilson was progressive. How did that work out for African Americans?
I love it how progressives, once they realize how bad their policies were, try to say it was the conservatives. Woodrow Wilson was progressive. How did that work out for African Americans?
3
Unfortunately, if you've been reading the paper, this is not a thing of the past, even in this country. The European Court just ruled that France and other countries could not force transgender people to submit to forced sterilization in order to legally change their status to their preferred gender. The same articles pointed out that this same law is valid in some States in the country.We are already on the slippery slope. Sad.
Pres. Chump wants to be a dictator.
It is as simple as that.
Hence his love for the military.
"The price of liberty is eternal vigilance" against Chump.
It is as simple as that.
Hence his love for the military.
"The price of liberty is eternal vigilance" against Chump.
It is beyond offensive to analogize the rounding up and murder of Jews in Nazi Germany with an effort to deport people who have no legal right to be here -- people who violate the law by their continued presence in this country. It is also flawed reasoning to suggest that the Supreme Court's view of the standard the government needs to meet to revoke naturalization has anything to do with the way in which it decides which illegal immigrants it chooses to deport.
7
"It is beyond offensive to analogize the rounding up and murder of Jews in Nazi Germany with an effort to deport people who have no legal right to be here -- people who violate the law by their continued presence in this country"
It would be, but this editorial does nothing of the sort.
Before the Nazis rounded up Jews to exterminate them, it rounded them up under the pretext of "getting rid of all Jews with criminal records."
In the case of Ilse Stanley's husband, the crime in question was a parking violation.
It is not offensive to find similarities between the behavior of the Nazis in the early stages of their consolidation of power with the behavior of the Trump administration.
It would be, but this editorial does nothing of the sort.
Before the Nazis rounded up Jews to exterminate them, it rounded them up under the pretext of "getting rid of all Jews with criminal records."
In the case of Ilse Stanley's husband, the crime in question was a parking violation.
It is not offensive to find similarities between the behavior of the Nazis in the early stages of their consolidation of power with the behavior of the Trump administration.
2
When you want to take away rights you do it in small increment steps starting with a group of people who are loathed and resented by the general public. In natzi Germany the target was Jews and Gypsies. Here in the USA illegal immigrants are the obvious target. The public has always resented illegal immigrants and view all of them as criminals so no one expects any push back against questionable methods in dealing with them.
The problem is that once you start crossing those lines it gets easier and easier to push boundaries that you normally wouldn't cross. In Germany natzi scientists went from using Jews as labor to killing them and performing horrific experiments on them.
President Obama was right to focus on removing those who were guilty of violent crimes. Until Congress decides to address our immigration policies that have led to our current crisis this is an easily enforcible line that ensures we don't cross any boundaries that we can't walk back from.
The problem is that once you start crossing those lines it gets easier and easier to push boundaries that you normally wouldn't cross. In Germany natzi scientists went from using Jews as labor to killing them and performing horrific experiments on them.
President Obama was right to focus on removing those who were guilty of violent crimes. Until Congress decides to address our immigration policies that have led to our current crisis this is an easily enforcible line that ensures we don't cross any boundaries that we can't walk back from.
5
The illegal immigrant doesn't have a right to be in my country in the first place. The default penalty for illegal residence is deportation to country of origin.
Please explain how sending illegal immigrants home will cause American citizens to lose rights.
Please explain how sending illegal immigrants home will cause American citizens to lose rights.
7
"...doesn't have a right to be in my country..." That's kind of what the white man said to the native Americans as they marched them of their ancestral lands to reservations, starved them, gave them pox infected blankets and generally acted out the evil that humans frequently stoop to.
Trump, Sessions, Miller, Bannon and so many others are acting on evil instincts while wrapping themselves in the flag using the law as a spear against their hapless victims. If the law serves evil actions rather than as a shield against injustice what kind of a nation do you think we will become?
Trump, Sessions, Miller, Bannon and so many others are acting on evil instincts while wrapping themselves in the flag using the law as a spear against their hapless victims. If the law serves evil actions rather than as a shield against injustice what kind of a nation do you think we will become?
1
Trump and Sherrif Sessions are enacting ethnic cleansing in the name of public safety. They are the real criminals.
There is something so disgusting about having a president stand before such a large group of human beings and use words that make other humans sound less than human. Living the South during segregation I heard terms denigrating blacks that questioned their humanity as well as their being outside God's concerns.
That we now have a president that says such ugly things is a disgrace to this country. His questioning the rights and the humanity of others should frighten us.
That we now have a president that says such ugly things is a disgrace to this country. His questioning the rights and the humanity of others should frighten us.
6
I wonder what would happen if I (or any American citizen) went to Mexico - or Switzerland, or Costa Rica -- without entering the country through legal channels? I happen to know that answer. The second I got stopped for jaywalking I'd be put in a holding cell -- a jail -- until I could be deported. It wouldn't matter if I'd committed a violent crime. I'd broken the law. Every organized country on Earth has laws like this.
I wonder what would happen to me -- even as an American citizen -- if I stole someone else's Social Security number and got caught, or just used a fraudulent number? I happen to know that answer too: It's a felony with a maximum sentence of five years in prison and a $250,000 fine.
To compare the right of the United States to have laws regulating its borders and immigration policies to what happened in Nazi Germany is a new low, even for the New York Times.
I wonder what would happen to me -- even as an American citizen -- if I stole someone else's Social Security number and got caught, or just used a fraudulent number? I happen to know that answer too: It's a felony with a maximum sentence of five years in prison and a $250,000 fine.
To compare the right of the United States to have laws regulating its borders and immigration policies to what happened in Nazi Germany is a new low, even for the New York Times.
11
Gee, suppose groping females was an offense warranting
deportation, or lying in a public funded venue? Or claiming
your roots were Swedish ( Trump) when they were German
(Trumpf.)? Gee.
deportation, or lying in a public funded venue? Or claiming
your roots were Swedish ( Trump) when they were German
(Trumpf.)? Gee.
5
Trump is free to establish his own deportation criteria, he is not required to follow Obama's practices. People in this country illegally are criminals and they can be deported even if they have no so-called additional serious criminal convictions.
I don't see a parallel between what is happening now with illegal immigration and the plight of the German Jews. The latter were natural-born citizens of Germany who paid a terrible price for their religious status. The current situation involves aliens who have overstayed their visas or have entered this country illegally. If caught by ICE, their fate is deportation. There are no gas chambers, crematoria, firing squads or yellow stars.
I don't see a parallel between what is happening now with illegal immigration and the plight of the German Jews. The latter were natural-born citizens of Germany who paid a terrible price for their religious status. The current situation involves aliens who have overstayed their visas or have entered this country illegally. If caught by ICE, their fate is deportation. There are no gas chambers, crematoria, firing squads or yellow stars.
11
As in so many other such treatises, the author chooses to conflate immigrants who have entered legally with those who have not. There is all the difference in the world to observers without an ideological ax to grind. Whatever you may think of ICE tactics, the "21,362 immigrants" arrested by them this year had chosen to break the law in order to enter and to remain here.
And more perniciously, he plays the Nazi card, using the tragic history of his own family. What comparison is he going to have left if a US government really started to round people up in order to send them off to death camps?
And more perniciously, he plays the Nazi card, using the tragic history of his own family. What comparison is he going to have left if a US government really started to round people up in order to send them off to death camps?
11
That is pretty much what happened to native Americans. For example, The Trail of Tears. Or Wounded Knee.
Although there certainly must have been German Jews who chose not to emigrate because they found it so hard to believe that they would be targeted for death, the fact is that about half the German Jews did leave Germany. While not all German Jews realized the danger they were in as early as my grandparents did when they worked to get their children out of Germany as soon as Hitler came to power and then had to wait almost to the end to get a place in the US for themselves, the stories I grew up with are different than what Stanley heard from his grandmother and I believe are more reflective of the actual facts. Also keep in mind that the places where the Jewish population lost the greatest percentage of its people were countries like Poland and the Ukraine and the Baltic countries. They didn't expect an invasion and their Jewish citizens were also the least likely to receive a welcome in places like the US which discriminated against Eastern Europeans even more than it did against German Jews.
2
As in the past with the United States for those who know its history, the questions are still:
1. By their actions who are the real savages here, the American people or the Indigenous First Nation former farmers and Foresters with the descendants of the kidnapped and enslaved African hostages stripped of all culture, lineage, family ties and even recognition as human beings and now simply referred to as "Black"?
2. By their actions and their greed, who reveal themselves as the real "Hunter Gatherers" here, the American people or the Indigenous former farmers and managers of the Forests of their nations and city-states?
3. By their actions and their lack of empathy and love for their neighbors, who reveals themselves as the real barbarians here, the Indigenous former farmers and foresters, the kidnapped and enslaved African hostages and their descendants, the LGBT community and the American Islamic community or the majority of the American people?
4. Do those actions explain the reason for the untrammeled rape of the natural world going on at present, the insensitivity and exploitation of fellow American citizens of less means, the use of untrammeled force as an instrument of citizenship and diplomacy in the traditions of the Mongolian Empire and the desperate ugliness that has descended upon the nation and it's cultural products ?
5. Does that lack of cultural substance mean that the American Experiment will disappear?
1. By their actions who are the real savages here, the American people or the Indigenous First Nation former farmers and Foresters with the descendants of the kidnapped and enslaved African hostages stripped of all culture, lineage, family ties and even recognition as human beings and now simply referred to as "Black"?
2. By their actions and their greed, who reveal themselves as the real "Hunter Gatherers" here, the American people or the Indigenous former farmers and managers of the Forests of their nations and city-states?
3. By their actions and their lack of empathy and love for their neighbors, who reveals themselves as the real barbarians here, the Indigenous former farmers and foresters, the kidnapped and enslaved African hostages and their descendants, the LGBT community and the American Islamic community or the majority of the American people?
4. Do those actions explain the reason for the untrammeled rape of the natural world going on at present, the insensitivity and exploitation of fellow American citizens of less means, the use of untrammeled force as an instrument of citizenship and diplomacy in the traditions of the Mongolian Empire and the desperate ugliness that has descended upon the nation and it's cultural products ?
5. Does that lack of cultural substance mean that the American Experiment will disappear?
On Friday, I was in DC and able to get tickets to the permanent collection of the US Holocaust Memorial Museum. And although I grew up in Germany and we covered the 3rd Reich in much detail, much of what I learned was new to me.
While spending hours going from exhibit to exhibit, watching video after video, I could not help to feel deja vu at some of the exhibits. I am very well aware that I am walking a very fine line and I do not want to diminish the suffering and death of six million Jews, three million Russian POWs, and the millions of Roma,homosexuals, socialists, communists, union leaders, and other humans stamped as sub-humans by Hitler's Regime.
Having said that, it really frightened me to see that the same arguments and rhetoric used by Hitler and his government, have been resurrected and dominate the arguments against those who are the "other." We should be better than that. We should have outgrown this by now.
What also worries me is another parallel to the 3rd Reich that we are experiencing again. A trip through history shows that much of Europe eagerly participated in the prosecution and killing of the Jews. That hardly any country in the world wanted to take in the refugees, thereby condemning them to die. That most countries for years tried to diminish the suffering and death that was being wrought by Hitler and his government, just so there did not seem a moral obligation to get involved. We are walking this road again. Shame on us!
While spending hours going from exhibit to exhibit, watching video after video, I could not help to feel deja vu at some of the exhibits. I am very well aware that I am walking a very fine line and I do not want to diminish the suffering and death of six million Jews, three million Russian POWs, and the millions of Roma,homosexuals, socialists, communists, union leaders, and other humans stamped as sub-humans by Hitler's Regime.
Having said that, it really frightened me to see that the same arguments and rhetoric used by Hitler and his government, have been resurrected and dominate the arguments against those who are the "other." We should be better than that. We should have outgrown this by now.
What also worries me is another parallel to the 3rd Reich that we are experiencing again. A trip through history shows that much of Europe eagerly participated in the prosecution and killing of the Jews. That hardly any country in the world wanted to take in the refugees, thereby condemning them to die. That most countries for years tried to diminish the suffering and death that was being wrought by Hitler and his government, just so there did not seem a moral obligation to get involved. We are walking this road again. Shame on us!
3
The biggest criminal are folks who do not pay their fair share of taxes. Thats is the most patriotic thing to do!
Are any of the "criminal aliens" from Eastern Europe being expelled? Or "criminal aliens" from Asia? Or is it just the people from South America, the Caribbean, and Africa?
5
You can not possibly have read the article and ask that question.
DIVNA MASLENJAK is from Eastern Europe. She is Serbian from what is now Bosnia. By American standards and most European ones she is "White". The entire Supreme Court Case is about whether a white "refugee" can have citizenship removed for having lied during the naturalization process.
DIVNA MASLENJAK is from Eastern Europe. She is Serbian from what is now Bosnia. By American standards and most European ones she is "White". The entire Supreme Court Case is about whether a white "refugee" can have citizenship removed for having lied during the naturalization process.
5
Awful description of what may constitute a 'police state', in these United States, under the new regime of an 'ugly american-in-chief', still in a 'candidate mode' of viciousness, persistent lying, and active promotion of fear, hate and division. This, so to confound, and own, his base of supporters, so that Trump's abuse of power would seem "normal". Even a crook, before the heist, must justify to himself that what he is about to do is not only the right thing to do, but a just retribution of what may have been acquired illegally to begin with. Trump's inane need to find scapegoats to justify his own stupidity may come at a price, when he faces justice 'a la McCarthy': "have you no decency, sir"? Tolerance of evil may constitute a crime too, a reminder to all those able, and willing, to lend support to this demagogue -charlatan in the White House. Who would have thought, consciences can be bought...if the price is right. Who are we, exactly? Let's wake up folks, before no one is left to speak up, and defend you. One more thing; just because you may have voted for this thug, does not mean you can't change your mind when the evidence becomes overwhelming, his cheating on you, and whose only interest is himself.
1
“MAGA” is turning into our national shame, as the gutless GOP rubber-stamps daily approval of the delusional, inept Trump and his money-grubbing family, as he ramps up billions for private, for-profit prisons, turning America into a police state, much like Germany in the 1930s!!!
Jeff Sessions’s edicts are causing chaos for under-staffed immigration courts, judges and translators as Trump has jams through deportations. In states like Texas, Florida, California, and Arizona, immigrants are being herded like cattle through quick, out-of-control hearings, assuring many erroneous deportations.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/04/17/immigration-courts-new-ru...
America’s becoming another domino in the alt-Right tyranny of its citizens and immigrants… The world is asking, “Who’s got the guts and decency to introduce Impeachment proceedings? “
Jeff Sessions’s edicts are causing chaos for under-staffed immigration courts, judges and translators as Trump has jams through deportations. In states like Texas, Florida, California, and Arizona, immigrants are being herded like cattle through quick, out-of-control hearings, assuring many erroneous deportations.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/04/17/immigration-courts-new-ru...
America’s becoming another domino in the alt-Right tyranny of its citizens and immigrants… The world is asking, “Who’s got the guts and decency to introduce Impeachment proceedings? “
2
Mr. Trump may also wish to consider some moral crimes that are indicated in the bible. You are guilty of the crime of jealousy. You are guilty of the crime of envy. You are guilty of the crime of arrogance.
Hey wait a minute. This may also apply to Donald Trump.
Hey wait a minute. This may also apply to Donald Trump.
2
As others have noted, the steady stream of columnists starting with some comparison to Nazi Germany is getting old. If the Democratic Party has any hope of returning to relevancy, they are going to have to impress writers that they do not live in the past...and that our present is not a repeat of the past.
Competent writers could probably compare the misery some of us currently suffer with many times and places in history. But to what end? Will they and their colleague competent writers never give any possible changes so the Trumps and Le Pen's of the world are not re-elected?
Show us your vision of the future, writers and thinkers. Stop comparing the unknowns of today with the knowns of a long time ago. Trust me. We remember.
Competent writers could probably compare the misery some of us currently suffer with many times and places in history. But to what end? Will they and their colleague competent writers never give any possible changes so the Trumps and Le Pen's of the world are not re-elected?
Show us your vision of the future, writers and thinkers. Stop comparing the unknowns of today with the knowns of a long time ago. Trust me. We remember.
4
Deporting a foreign national to his or her country of origin is not the same as targeting millions of Jews, Roma, Slavs and other "undesirables" for extermination.
If we can't even agree on that then this country really does need to break up. Clearly we're not living in the same reality any longer.
If we can't even agree on that then this country really does need to break up. Clearly we're not living in the same reality any longer.
9
By applying this evil rule, both Trump and his father as well as Jared and his father and all their children should be deported as their parents have committed what is considered crimes by the hooligan lawyer along with the racist supremacist occupying the Justice Department. Welcome to the age of Barbarians.
3
A small point - the Jews of Germany were citizens of Germany. The "criminal aliens" targeted by Trump are not citizens.
7
A typical NYT immigration recipe. Take a liberal university professor (philosophy is always good) and have him write it. Leading with a comparison to Nazi Germany is always a good lead in followed by homage to Obama. Use of the term 'undocumented immigrant' over 'illegal alien' is de rigeur, since by implication being undocumented is somehow OK. Finally imply how the Trump administration is analogous to the Nazis or may become so, and voila!
If an illegal is deported after being stopped for a traffic violation, it may be well be that the reason is not the violation itself but for some prior failing. And that is different than actively seeking out those for previous traffic offenses as the Nazis did with his grandfather and as he implies is being done today.
If an illegal is deported after being stopped for a traffic violation, it may be well be that the reason is not the violation itself but for some prior failing. And that is different than actively seeking out those for previous traffic offenses as the Nazis did with his grandfather and as he implies is being done today.
9
Wow, more Nazi comparisons? Is the NY Times' entire editorial strategy now to just invoke Godwin's Law every day in every way until Trump is no longer president?
People who enter the country and stay here illegally are breaking the law and are subject to whatever legal repercussions are attendant to their legal violations. Trump hasn't made any new laws; he's only trying to enforce laws that have been on the books, but gone ignored or unenforced, for years.
Trump is no Nazi and enforcing the law isn't a Gestapo tactic. And, every time the NY Times endorses a view implying that the US has become some kind of police state, the Times itself looks foolish and loses a little more credibility.
Argue the issues. Emotion and personal anecdote are interesting, but they're not arguments. C'mon, NY Times. You're better than this.
People who enter the country and stay here illegally are breaking the law and are subject to whatever legal repercussions are attendant to their legal violations. Trump hasn't made any new laws; he's only trying to enforce laws that have been on the books, but gone ignored or unenforced, for years.
Trump is no Nazi and enforcing the law isn't a Gestapo tactic. And, every time the NY Times endorses a view implying that the US has become some kind of police state, the Times itself looks foolish and loses a little more credibility.
Argue the issues. Emotion and personal anecdote are interesting, but they're not arguments. C'mon, NY Times. You're better than this.
11
Keep pushing illegal immigration and Trump will get four more years.
7
Well, yes... much of politics consists of staining all members of a group with the abhorrent behavior of a tiny minority of that group. Staining all 10 million or so undocumented with the horrible crimes of just one undocumented immigrant is certainly a tactic Trump and his supporters do, and it is awful.
But gosh, let's not reciprocate. If a disgusting skinhead Nazi likes Trump, don't stain Trump with the actions of that one horrible person. And let's recall Godwin's law, and try to avoid it.
But gosh, let's not reciprocate. If a disgusting skinhead Nazi likes Trump, don't stain Trump with the actions of that one horrible person. And let's recall Godwin's law, and try to avoid it.
Bully, bigot, blowhard, buffoon, grifter, ignoramus, liar, hypocrite, malignant narcissist, petulant egomaniac. This is what we've got sitting in the Oval Office. At the risk of channeling Tom Clancy, I would add that Herr Trump is the sum of all fears, a clar and present danger and the enemy of the state. The Trumpsters constitute the Fifth Column who have stabbed America in the back and in the back. Götterdämmerung awaits.
1
It seems to me, Trump is the criminal in the room!
1
While I am sympathetic to your position against deportation for trivial missteps, your comparison to the holocaust i inappropo. Jews who were rounded up in Europe were citizens in their home countries. Mexicans who are sent back to Mexico are in the US illegally. No further "crime" is necessary to justify their removal.
5
This needs to be seen in context. Trump and Sessions believe two things: 1. They can declare anyone they want to be a "on-citizen" without any legal authority, due process or Constitutional legality and 2. Non-citizens have no protections under the law. This is in effect the Nazi era policy applied to Jews who were first declared to be non-citizens, and then as non-citizens stripped of any protection of German law. While the backlash against raising the "NZ" word is usually harsh, here it is deserved as the parallel is almost perfect. Take this together with Trump's calling for his political opponents to be physically assaulted and his belief that political opposition deserves and ought to be suppressed by violence and you have the formula for an America Kristallnacht where Trump will "suggest" to his followers that they burn out, destroy, beat and assault his opponents and the physical premises which embody the opposition. First to go will be Planned Parenthood Clinics, then liberal political meetings, then the mob will move on to Sunagogues and black churches.
The naturalization application asks for any crimes or offenses the applicant has committed. You are asked to swear, under oath, that everything in your application is accurate. The application process is too rigid, but it's not fair to entirely blame the Trump administration. It's bureaucracy that has given itself too much power.
3
@Justin: "it's not fair to entirely blame the Trump administration"
"Trump’s executive orders vastly expand the criminal category".
Who do you blame for that?
"Trump’s executive orders vastly expand the criminal category".
Who do you blame for that?
2
For the record, although subject to deportation proceedings, "Mere undocumented presence in the United States alone, however, in the absence of a previous removal order and unauthorized reentry, is not a crime under federal law."
https://www.aclu.org/files/assets/FINAL_criminalizing_undocumented_immig...
Also: "Despite the anti-immigrant rhetoric, “criminal alien” is not a legal term and undocumented immigrants are not “criminal aliens” under federal law. The term “criminal alien” is not defined anywhere in the federal Immigration and Nationality Act (INA). To the extent it appears at all in the INA, it is used in the subject heading of several provisions that describe documented and undocumented immigrants who have been convicted of criminal offenses (after a trial or guilty plea) that are designated as “aggravated felonies” or as
“crimes involving moral turpitude.”
https://www.aclu.org/files/assets/FINAL_criminalizing_undocumented_immig...
Also: "Despite the anti-immigrant rhetoric, “criminal alien” is not a legal term and undocumented immigrants are not “criminal aliens” under federal law. The term “criminal alien” is not defined anywhere in the federal Immigration and Nationality Act (INA). To the extent it appears at all in the INA, it is used in the subject heading of several provisions that describe documented and undocumented immigrants who have been convicted of criminal offenses (after a trial or guilty plea) that are designated as “aggravated felonies” or as
“crimes involving moral turpitude.”
1
Illegal immigrants should not be here, and in a perfect world, would leave or be made to leave.
But how much are we as a nation willing to spend to make this happen? To locate, arrest, detain, try, and deport millions of people? As one reality-based law enforcement leader put it, there are just so many seats on the bus. Do you want to fill them up with dangerous criminals, or petty lawbreakers?
And in addition to the actual costs of detention and deportation, there are the collateral costs of dealing with the millions of American-born children left unsupported or alone. Are we willing to fund expanded social services and foster-care programs for these children? And good luck expecting these kids to grow up to be healthy and productive citizens.
There's a reason why, in the slightly saner Bush and Obama years, many lawmakers on both side of the aisle supported forms of amnesty and paths to citizenship. They realized that trying to excise these people from American society was impossible.
Despite heart-wrenching stories like those of Mr. Stone's grandmother, and more recents ones about American immigrants, it's pretty clear that many Americans don't care about the human cost of increased enforcement.
Maybe Democrats need to make the fiscal case for more humane immigration reform.
But how much are we as a nation willing to spend to make this happen? To locate, arrest, detain, try, and deport millions of people? As one reality-based law enforcement leader put it, there are just so many seats on the bus. Do you want to fill them up with dangerous criminals, or petty lawbreakers?
And in addition to the actual costs of detention and deportation, there are the collateral costs of dealing with the millions of American-born children left unsupported or alone. Are we willing to fund expanded social services and foster-care programs for these children? And good luck expecting these kids to grow up to be healthy and productive citizens.
There's a reason why, in the slightly saner Bush and Obama years, many lawmakers on both side of the aisle supported forms of amnesty and paths to citizenship. They realized that trying to excise these people from American society was impossible.
Despite heart-wrenching stories like those of Mr. Stone's grandmother, and more recents ones about American immigrants, it's pretty clear that many Americans don't care about the human cost of increased enforcement.
Maybe Democrats need to make the fiscal case for more humane immigration reform.
You hit on the edges of a pervasive mentality in the US. Law enforcement as a means to fixing our ills. Be it broken windows policing, profiling in minority communities, up-arming local PDs with military equipment, or this misdirected attacks on immigrants by the Trump Admin to satiate his base...there is too much emphasis on law enforcement to fix problems that have deeper causes, and need more complex fixes. (Poverty, lack of education opportunities, etc.)
Law enforcement is not a societal problem solver.
Law enforcement is not a societal problem solver.
1
I think a large part of this issue goes back to an underlying principle in much of conservative-leaning thinking: that morality and legality should precisely conform/overlap. It's the same reason why so many conservatives want Roe overturned--because they believe abortion is immoral and therefore should be illegal. Similarly, many conservatives believe that the illegal variety of immigration implies a lack of morality and that violators of such morality deserve whatever punishment is doled out. It's a sadly simplistic way of viewing the world, borne of the hubris of believing that morality is always clear and easily determinable. To be clear, I'm not a fan of moral relativism, but I find it hard not to question any views that put a complex world in such stark and simplistic terms.
Progressives commit the same error on immigration -- because they consider the immigration laws immoral they can't understand why anybody would want to enforce them at all, let alone enforce them to their full extent.
2
"(S)omeone whose character leads them to repeatedly commit serious crimes" seems to describe the person who currently occupies the White House. Accepting bribes - oh, I mean payments - from foreign governments while dealing with those governments as our head of state is a crime. This person shows no remorse or any signal that he understands the criminality of his acts. Thus his criminality is a character trait, and he therefore is a criminal.
2
The article states:
"Between January and March of this year, Immigration and Customs Enforcement arrested 21,362 immigrants, Of those arrested, 5,441 of them had no history of violating a law."
Do keep in mind that every person who enters or overstays a visit to the US without legal authorization is violating US immigration law. So, the sentence should read "had no history of violating a law other than the immigration laws."
For those who are curious, I could well be classified a liberal, I have certainly tended to vote Democrat for decades, and I despise the dehumanization of immigrants that is is a hallmark of this administration.
And, I'd say that all the farm workers and construction workers and domestic workers who aren't in the country legally nonetheless do more good than harm to the US economy. And most of them are decent, hardworking, and even tax-paying people.
But I recoil at the claims that no laws are broken when immigration law is broken and that anyone who successfully slips in is automatically entitled to stay. That philosophy doesn't work for movie theaters, airplanes and university admissions. The sense of entitlement that is expressed kills much of my sympathy.
By the way, by analogy, "undocumented" is when I leave my drivers license at home and the police ask me where it is. "Illegal" is when I never had a drivers license to begin with.
"Between January and March of this year, Immigration and Customs Enforcement arrested 21,362 immigrants, Of those arrested, 5,441 of them had no history of violating a law."
Do keep in mind that every person who enters or overstays a visit to the US without legal authorization is violating US immigration law. So, the sentence should read "had no history of violating a law other than the immigration laws."
For those who are curious, I could well be classified a liberal, I have certainly tended to vote Democrat for decades, and I despise the dehumanization of immigrants that is is a hallmark of this administration.
And, I'd say that all the farm workers and construction workers and domestic workers who aren't in the country legally nonetheless do more good than harm to the US economy. And most of them are decent, hardworking, and even tax-paying people.
But I recoil at the claims that no laws are broken when immigration law is broken and that anyone who successfully slips in is automatically entitled to stay. That philosophy doesn't work for movie theaters, airplanes and university admissions. The sense of entitlement that is expressed kills much of my sympathy.
By the way, by analogy, "undocumented" is when I leave my drivers license at home and the police ask me where it is. "Illegal" is when I never had a drivers license to begin with.
4
Examining the last sentence we see, ironically; the author uses the same process as the administration she denigrates - scare tactics:
"If we look away when the state brands someone a criminal, who among us then remains safe?"
An important difference is that we expect such things from a politician, as agitation and bogeyman creation are as traditional in politics as too much salt on carnival food. Conversely writers arguing ethical causes are held to a higher standard and may not play on heartstrings while overlooking inconvenient facts. In this case nowhere is it mentioned that a crime is committed generically by illegally crossing the border. True it is a misdemeanor, but so is simple assault.
The standard that exists is experiential: if you or I cross a border illegally into say Canada because we just want to live there, what sort of treatment should we expect, how free should we feel to stay? I'd be nervous knowing I was in the wrong. That's the common sense hurdle Jason Stanley fails to leap.
"If we look away when the state brands someone a criminal, who among us then remains safe?"
An important difference is that we expect such things from a politician, as agitation and bogeyman creation are as traditional in politics as too much salt on carnival food. Conversely writers arguing ethical causes are held to a higher standard and may not play on heartstrings while overlooking inconvenient facts. In this case nowhere is it mentioned that a crime is committed generically by illegally crossing the border. True it is a misdemeanor, but so is simple assault.
The standard that exists is experiential: if you or I cross a border illegally into say Canada because we just want to live there, what sort of treatment should we expect, how free should we feel to stay? I'd be nervous knowing I was in the wrong. That's the common sense hurdle Jason Stanley fails to leap.
3
As a business owner in a construction trade the need for skilled workers whose "value" to the greater society is deemed less essential than that of a well educated, technically trained, multi lingual immigrant creates a problem with a practical solution. The door for highly valued workers remains wide open and special consideration is justified as essential to high growth, high profit sectors of the economy. And of course we train our children to pursue those same occupations putting ever increasing pressure on industries like ours to seek qualified workers wherever we can find them. Most of our work force are immigrants, none here illegally, some arrived as refugees of the wars in South East Asia, others made there way here illegally and went through the long and often dehumanizing process of obtaining legal status. These people are hard working, skilled, well compensated and valued, not only by their employer but by their communities as well. The current administration, that embraces dictators and known abusers of human rights as guests to our White House, is headed for criminal status if it is not already there. That they resort to the rhetoric of past criminal governments should come as no surprise, nor should the craven disregard for due process and equal protection under the law. We could fix immigration tomorrow if the short term political and larger corporate interests that prevent that from happening could be put aside and practical consideration put in its place.
What a brilliant, articulate, important true story.
What chills it gives to the skeletons in all our closets.
What chills it gives to the skeletons in all our closets.
I am a Canadian and was recently coming back from my vacation, I was in Egypt, Jordon and Israel, I am a Muslim and had absolutely no issues in entering or leaving these countries. I was in transit through Chicago and got detained for 2.5 hours. In the waiting area all the people detained were Muslims at least while I was there. One of the detained person was a flight crew member from maybe Etihad. I have lived in North America I am a professional with no criminal record. After 2.5 hours I was allowed to leave, no explanation was given for my detention and when I asked if this will happen every time I visit US the officer just said maybe. At least I have the opportunity to stay away, I sympathise with the Americans that do not have this choice and I hope that this will end up in court and this policy be stopped.
1
Another example of the monstrous act we as a nation have committed by electing to the most powerful position in the world someone with a complete lack of humility, mercy, and decency, let alone an understanding of how the world actually works or a curiosity to learn.
Trump's supporters -- many (most?) of whom strongly identify as "Christians" -- continue to support him, and thus to cheer on this cruelty and short-sightedness. For them, damage to immigrants and people of color -- the Other -- not to mention to the planet and our civil society, appears to be a feature, not a bug. Until they are hurt by Trump's horrid acts, they will continue to support him.
I should probably just program a macro on my computer with that comment --- [Ctrl] [Alt] [T].
Trump's supporters -- many (most?) of whom strongly identify as "Christians" -- continue to support him, and thus to cheer on this cruelty and short-sightedness. For them, damage to immigrants and people of color -- the Other -- not to mention to the planet and our civil society, appears to be a feature, not a bug. Until they are hurt by Trump's horrid acts, they will continue to support him.
I should probably just program a macro on my computer with that comment --- [Ctrl] [Alt] [T].
I'm lucky. I live in a northern border state, was born here, have white skin, and an Anglo-Saxon surname. It seems that anyone who does not hold these qualities is suspect of being an "illegal" by the new Trump-Session national police force; the one they are creating using local police forces, ICE, and the Border Patrol. They are also busy setting up detention camps where all suspected individuals can be held without recourse to our court system. I'm lucky.
I have to wonder how many Germans sat and thought the same thing as the Jews were rounded up in the early thirties. You should wonder too.
I have to wonder how many Germans sat and thought the same thing as the Jews were rounded up in the early thirties. You should wonder too.
1
I think this country, collectively, has lost its mind.
3
In NY, there is supposed to be a difference between what may be a "criminal offense" and what is a violation of the city code, the minor laws which govern smoking in public, littering, smoking on the subways or spitting in the street.
Violations are not crimes , but it appears that much of the ignorant "lay" or non lawyer public does not know the difference between violations and criminal offenses.
a $2 fine, paid by mail, for smoking in the subway-, is quite a different matter from being arrested and convicted for robbing a liquor store with a gun or shooting a President.
What our current President and GOP are trying and succeeding in doing, is to conflate and confuse actions that would be ignored under ordinary circumstances, by our immigration authority.
What has occurred is Trump and his people are trying to ram through an American version of the infamous "Wannsee Protocols", or the German bureaucratic decisions to put into effect and law, previous promises concerning the total destruction and ruination of the Jewish people, the Gypsies and all homosexuals and any thought to be gay.
Current US action to affect immigration-a civil affair- be remembered as the time when America reneged on its legal promises , repudiating its own Constitution. The worst aspect of these acts is that so many ordinary people whose parents or grandparents came from other nations, are now saying and doing nothing to stop it.
Violations are not crimes , but it appears that much of the ignorant "lay" or non lawyer public does not know the difference between violations and criminal offenses.
a $2 fine, paid by mail, for smoking in the subway-, is quite a different matter from being arrested and convicted for robbing a liquor store with a gun or shooting a President.
What our current President and GOP are trying and succeeding in doing, is to conflate and confuse actions that would be ignored under ordinary circumstances, by our immigration authority.
What has occurred is Trump and his people are trying to ram through an American version of the infamous "Wannsee Protocols", or the German bureaucratic decisions to put into effect and law, previous promises concerning the total destruction and ruination of the Jewish people, the Gypsies and all homosexuals and any thought to be gay.
Current US action to affect immigration-a civil affair- be remembered as the time when America reneged on its legal promises , repudiating its own Constitution. The worst aspect of these acts is that so many ordinary people whose parents or grandparents came from other nations, are now saying and doing nothing to stop it.
The deportation that drives me nuts - deporting an immigrant for the crime of creating an illegal taxpayer ID so that they can PAY taxes. Come on!
BUT I don't have an issue at all with deporting an immigrant after a violent felony.
BUT I don't have an issue at all with deporting an immigrant after a violent felony.
2
By the Trump administration's own legal standards, the President himself should be booted out of America a thousand times over.
1
This is a false comparison. According the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, "80% of the 500,000 Jews in Prewar Germany were citizens" with the vast remainder Polish citizens with permanent residency. Donald Trump has not advocated deporting US citizens of Mexican heritage, though he has made some terrible statements (see Judge Curiel) about them. He has talked about deporting the 11 million people in this country that are in violation of our laws. We can have a number of reasoned conversations about how to handle that between full amnesty and open borders to full deportation and 100% closed borders.
However, when we make these histrionic comparisons between Trump and the worst policies of the Nazi regime, it actually blunts the power of the solid arguments against Trump as the accuser can be written off by the other side as hysterical. Trump is a xenophobe, a liar, a philanderer, a serial sexual harasser, a wannabe tyrant, and America's own Silvio Berlusconi. That should be more than enough to indict his presidency.
However, when we make these histrionic comparisons between Trump and the worst policies of the Nazi regime, it actually blunts the power of the solid arguments against Trump as the accuser can be written off by the other side as hysterical. Trump is a xenophobe, a liar, a philanderer, a serial sexual harasser, a wannabe tyrant, and America's own Silvio Berlusconi. That should be more than enough to indict his presidency.
3
To the Author: Thank you for a beautifully written article.
This article is full of ridiculous obfuscations. Humans do not have the inherent right to move where they wish on this planet. Americans, like nationals of every single nation on the planet, have the right to determine who gets to come here and who does not. Sending people home when they take it upon themselves to ignore that right is not a human rights violation.
4
Supreme Court Chief Justice Roberts' example, driving 60 in a 55 zone, is not even a criminal act. At worst, it is a civil violation, that subjects the violator to a fine and possibly a notice placed on one's driver's license ("points").
Criminal driving offenses can include DUI, reckless driving, leaving the scene of an accident, and so forth. A parking ticket or a simple moving violation is not a criminal offense.
The position of the US Government in the Trump Administration appears to be well outside of any reasonable reading of the law, because most traffic offenses are not criminal acts.
Emperor Donnie is a would-be dictator if he could get his way. This man needs to be removed from office because he clearly does not have the ability to carry out his duties in compliance with the US Constitution.
Criminal driving offenses can include DUI, reckless driving, leaving the scene of an accident, and so forth. A parking ticket or a simple moving violation is not a criminal offense.
The position of the US Government in the Trump Administration appears to be well outside of any reasonable reading of the law, because most traffic offenses are not criminal acts.
Emperor Donnie is a would-be dictator if he could get his way. This man needs to be removed from office because he clearly does not have the ability to carry out his duties in compliance with the US Constitution.
24
It just so happens that the naturalization application asks "Have you EVER committed ... a crime or offense for which you were NOT arrested." Emphasis theirs. Roberts even looked up the Black's Law Dictionary definition of an offense. Speeding qualifies as an offense.
4
Justin
So what is an "offense for which you were NOT arrested"?
A parking ticket? Jaywalking? Spitting on the sidewalk?
What you are suggesting is that the act that would be used to deny a person citizenship is answering the question incorrectly (even if there was no witness to the offense).
Jaywalk. Never write that down. You just lied on your form. You lose your citizenship? That is nuts.
So what is an "offense for which you were NOT arrested"?
A parking ticket? Jaywalking? Spitting on the sidewalk?
What you are suggesting is that the act that would be used to deny a person citizenship is answering the question incorrectly (even if there was no witness to the offense).
Jaywalk. Never write that down. You just lied on your form. You lose your citizenship? That is nuts.
Justin: "the naturalization application"
For the record, that is USCIS Form N-400, Application for Naturalization:
https://www.uscis.gov/n-400
(The complete question is in Part 12, line 22.)
For the record, that is USCIS Form N-400, Application for Naturalization:
https://www.uscis.gov/n-400
(The complete question is in Part 12, line 22.)
1
Thank you, Professor Stanley, for sharing your grandmother's story. Words have powerful meanings and are freighted with associations that extend those meanings. Characterizing entire groups as "criminals" does brand that group as nefarious and harming the broader society, which is almost never the case. If we are not sensitive to how language is used to peel off certain citizens/aliens to isolate and then punish them then we risk falling into exactly what befell Germany. There is a reason for the saying, "the pen is mightier than the sword" and heaven help us if we allow this administration to vilify people without understanding what is happening.
14
Way back when 45 was not 45 the seeds of the rhetoric began and I shuddered then. It has only progressed to worse and worse.
Why are we so blind to what could be in a month more, 2 or 3 or 5 etc? This country is careening as it remains in the power of an unprincipled, ignorant "leader."
I pray.
Why are we so blind to what could be in a month more, 2 or 3 or 5 etc? This country is careening as it remains in the power of an unprincipled, ignorant "leader."
I pray.
8
As a former South Floridian, I find Trump's position regarding the deportation of illegal immigrants to be stunningly hypocritical. The Palm Beach Post claims that the Trump Organization has brought in close to 3,000 foreign workers on temporary visas; The Daily Beast says that number is closer to 1,200.
The Palm Beach Post has written about the difficulty South Florida citizens have had in even being able to apply for jobs at Mar-a-Lago and at other Trump properties; citizens have been told that no jobs were available. These jobs included not only housekeeping and waitstaff jobs, but also middle management positions. Recently workers with temporary visas were brought in to staff Trump's vineyard in Virginia. It has been repeatedly reported that workers stay in the US illegally after their work visas expire.
Not only is Trump not hiring American citizens for these jobs, he is increasing the population of illegal aliens.
The Palm Beach Post has written about the difficulty South Florida citizens have had in even being able to apply for jobs at Mar-a-Lago and at other Trump properties; citizens have been told that no jobs were available. These jobs included not only housekeeping and waitstaff jobs, but also middle management positions. Recently workers with temporary visas were brought in to staff Trump's vineyard in Virginia. It has been repeatedly reported that workers stay in the US illegally after their work visas expire.
Not only is Trump not hiring American citizens for these jobs, he is increasing the population of illegal aliens.
15
a frightening, but important article. everyone who calls him/herself a person of God should think about the meaning of our president's words, and reconcile his words and actions with what your Savior said to do -- do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
6
Trump's most recent interviews show perhaps more strongly than ever that the man is not playing with a full deck. We need to find a way to get him to stop playing with our lives now.
13
"Someone who runs to catch a bus is not necessarily a runner; someone who commits a crime is not necessarily a criminal."
“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’
Unless we can agree on basic language, a discussion is meaningless. A runner is one who runs, for sport or to catch a bus. A criminal is one who commits a crime, habitually or as a one-off.
The question being argued in Maslenjak v. United States is if intentional misstatements on naturalization forms are to be considered a basis for revoking the citizenship granted on the basis of the lies. I claim that it is Justice Kennedy who is "demeaning the priceless value of citizenship” by allowing it to be granted without regards to the truth or falsehood of the applicant's statements.
Lastly, there are no illegal immigrants who have no history of violating a law, just as there are no bank robbers who have no history of violating a law. There may well be members of either group who have no SUBSEQUENT history of violating a law, but being a member of the group automatically means that one has violated at least one law. The question one needs to ask is if first offenses should get an automatic pass under the law, or if we live in a society where any violation of law bears the possibility of punishment.
“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’
Unless we can agree on basic language, a discussion is meaningless. A runner is one who runs, for sport or to catch a bus. A criminal is one who commits a crime, habitually or as a one-off.
The question being argued in Maslenjak v. United States is if intentional misstatements on naturalization forms are to be considered a basis for revoking the citizenship granted on the basis of the lies. I claim that it is Justice Kennedy who is "demeaning the priceless value of citizenship” by allowing it to be granted without regards to the truth or falsehood of the applicant's statements.
Lastly, there are no illegal immigrants who have no history of violating a law, just as there are no bank robbers who have no history of violating a law. There may well be members of either group who have no SUBSEQUENT history of violating a law, but being a member of the group automatically means that one has violated at least one law. The question one needs to ask is if first offenses should get an automatic pass under the law, or if we live in a society where any violation of law bears the possibility of punishment.
9
I am a naturalized citizen. The question was very clear. Paraphrasing as I don't recall the exact words: have you committed a crime for which you were convicted other than traffic violation?
Justice Kennedy is right.
Justice Kennedy is right.
3
An Irish national flew to the US on a tourist visa and then overstayed for a few decades because the employment opportunities were better. A Mexican crosses the border in the Arizona desert (because he is unable to obtain even a tourist visa because of the restrictions we have) and lives here for a few decades because of the employment opportunities. Who is Jeff Sessions going to deport? The Irishman with a handful of DWIs or the Mexican with a spotless record? We make it virtually impossible for anyone but the very well-to-do Mexicans to enter the US legally. The restrictions in place to obtain even a tourist visa are harsh. But anyone who can put together the cost of a plane ticket can show up from a visa-waiver country. Immigration violations have always been administrative not criminal offenses. Trump and the white nationalists are done a splendid job working the nation in to a lather. Our current mess is a combination of ludicrous immigration policy, oblivion to the effects of trade pollicy, racism and a host of others. If only a wall was simple enough to fix it. Someone need to start charter flights from Puebla, Mexico to Quebec and just have the passengers wander across the virtually unprotected Northern border. Maybe then Washington will realize they have to build rational policy not brick and mortar walls.
17
The answer, in that case, is to change the laws, not break them. I do not claim that the laws in place are fair and just; in immigration and in many other areas as well. BUT, that does not mean that people should just ignore them. I have no doubt that Al Capone thought the laws against him selling booze, and those restricting his methods of dealing with the competition, were unjust. Did that justify his ignoring them?
2
Let's not encourage more lawbreaking. If you are so passionate, why not sponsor a visa or two on your own?
1
The Administration's lawyer's response to Chief Justice Roberts question is truly disturbing. The law can be interpreted in multiple ways, hence courts to sort that out. But the rigidity displayed in that one response should make every American on the left of right uneasy. That level of rigidity, either from the Right or the Left is unacceptable in a nation that prides itself on the rule of law, as interpreted by the courts, not individuals in an Administration.
9
A criminal is someone who repeatedly and wantonly violates laws, who has been arrested and prosecuted and found guilty of doing so. Driving over the speed limit might be a criminal act, but doing so does not make someone a criminal. We carefully distinguish in our daily lives from being caught in a violation and those who live their lives by criminal means.
Trump's endless campaign against immigrants is disgusting. He is doing it only to get applause, only to please the most devoted of his followers so that he can keep his presidency afloat for as long as possible. He is doing it for base motives and it is clearly a threat to American values and decency. Yet, Trump would not be able to ride this pony if political leaders of the last generation or two had had the courage to move more forcefully to resolve the issue.
Republicans have secretly favored undocumented immigration to keep wages down and so that many of their clients, including industrial size farmers, could more easily get the labor the need. Democrats have not wanted to address the issue because they knew it would cost them votes and raise the ire of the supporters who believe that allowing some undocumented immigration is a humanitarian concession to reality. Both parties have failed, both parties use the issue for their own purposes.
This era of demonization will eventually backfire on Trump and on the Republicans. A better solution than calling people "snakes" will emerge.
Trump's endless campaign against immigrants is disgusting. He is doing it only to get applause, only to please the most devoted of his followers so that he can keep his presidency afloat for as long as possible. He is doing it for base motives and it is clearly a threat to American values and decency. Yet, Trump would not be able to ride this pony if political leaders of the last generation or two had had the courage to move more forcefully to resolve the issue.
Republicans have secretly favored undocumented immigration to keep wages down and so that many of their clients, including industrial size farmers, could more easily get the labor the need. Democrats have not wanted to address the issue because they knew it would cost them votes and raise the ire of the supporters who believe that allowing some undocumented immigration is a humanitarian concession to reality. Both parties have failed, both parties use the issue for their own purposes.
This era of demonization will eventually backfire on Trump and on the Republicans. A better solution than calling people "snakes" will emerge.
8
My heart aches to think of how long it will take to repair the damage done by Trump's words. And my heart aches at how far and fast my country has fallen from the values I always believed it held.
20
Mr. Stanley is right on point. What he shared with all today is a very cautionary tale, and should be tah not be taken lightly.
Untold numbers related to the paternal side of my family died in death camps in WWII. I strongly recommend everyone to please read this article.
Thank you.
Untold numbers related to the paternal side of my family died in death camps in WWII. I strongly recommend everyone to please read this article.
Thank you.
7
Some people, such as Louisa, do not understand immigration. The immigrants involved here are not illegal, they are lawful permanent residents applying for naturalization. They have been here a minimum of five years as residents before they are eligible to apply. And while the US is not targeting them based on religion, there is certainly an "otherness" component to Trump's anti-immigrant rhetoric. This is not "nonsense," this is a replay of all our past eras of anti-immigrant sentiment: against the Chinese, against the Irish, against the Japanese, etc. Until we can get past the view that American means white, or Christian (or Jew), to see that America really is a multi-racial, -ethnic, -religious society, people like Trump will continue to ascend.
8
The U.S. immigration law is intricate and in many places self-contradictory. Even someone with a major corporate employer, professional immigration lawyers and the best of personal intent can find themselves "out of status".
The concept of criminality is still useful, however, since it can be applied to those who genuinely want to harm others, even if the laws violated are those of logic and sound moral conduct as opposed to written acts emanating from legislative bodies. In fact, a large number of these criminals seem to be sitting in legislative bodies, supported in many cases by people who might well be labeled moral criminals. It's just a question of fitting the right boot on the right foot.
The concept of criminality is still useful, however, since it can be applied to those who genuinely want to harm others, even if the laws violated are those of logic and sound moral conduct as opposed to written acts emanating from legislative bodies. In fact, a large number of these criminals seem to be sitting in legislative bodies, supported in many cases by people who might well be labeled moral criminals. It's just a question of fitting the right boot on the right foot.
This article confuses or intentionally merges two different things: (1) deportation of non-citizens here illegally and (2) stripping someone of citizenship. I'd like to know more about the case, Maslenjak v. United States, in fact I'll google it now, but I don't find this piece helpful. If the author wants to make the case that Trump plans to strip citizens of citizenship and then deport them, then make that case. You could argue that felonies are too easy to commit (there are so many, you have no idea; almost everyone has committed a felony), that they should be more limited to the most serious crimes, and that stripping an immigrant of citizenship either should not be permitted or should be permitted only of those convicted of that more narrow definition of felonies. But as written this just comes across as a disorganized mishmash.
5
The circumstances that Jason Stanley describes are tragic and fraught with tension. However, one has to wonder about all the nightmare scenarios that the left is raising, turning every situation contrary to their holier-than-thou rhetoric into fascism, or worse, and a potentially horrific Trump policy. It makes me wonder how under this outside-the-boundaries new presidency, we can become a wiser body politic, rather than fear-riddled, huddled masses, by applying political values to our own particular national time and history. I, for one, am tired of the scare-tactics propaganda in the Opinion Pages of the NY Times.
4
You should be more scared by the actual tactics of this administration!
If you do think that the past 100 days do NOT warrant strong, blunt, and critical opinion pieces, then you are living in a fantasy! The columns are not scare tactics, the Trump policies are! And, worse!
If you do think that the past 100 days do NOT warrant strong, blunt, and critical opinion pieces, then you are living in a fantasy! The columns are not scare tactics, the Trump policies are! And, worse!
The author suggests that a criminal is "someone whose character leads them to repeatedly commit serious crimes." How do we define character in any objective way?
1
Are the people living in South Dakota in violation of the Sioux Treaty of 1868/Treaty of Fort Laramie also illegal immigrants no matter their record of occupation? They and their ancestors have illegally, under the terms of the treaty, occupied, bought, sold, and exploited Lakota lands. Shouldn't the federal government first enforce those laws which arise from its treaty obligations?
7
In the US this is all part of the Trump blame game of finger pointing. First he tells people that America is not great, then he blames it on immigrants and convinces his ignorant base that if we just deport **them** America will suddenly become great again. Never mind that they mostly take jobs that most Americans adamantly refuse to do and that they are given those jobs because the employers couldn't find anyone to do them. They aren't typically criminals; they obey the laws at a higher rate than citizens.
Let's finger point and blame immigrants for loss of blue collar jobs, that the immigrants don't take, rather than or own workforce inability to update skills to the automation and computer skills necessary in the rapidly evolving world.
Let's finger point and blame immigrants for loss of blue collar jobs, that the immigrants don't take, rather than or own workforce inability to update skills to the automation and computer skills necessary in the rapidly evolving world.
5
Incredibly good piece.
Wow.
This type of visceral story and explanation of today's policy needs to be heard.
I believe a great majority of Americans would be sympathetic.
I wonder…
Maybe if the Reagan administration in the 80's had not pursued the most inhuman foreign policy in Central America - destabilizing entire civil societies by giving arms and training and material support to the most anti-democracy, authoritarian, violent movements and people - we would not see today those nations in turmoil, who's people often flee for their lives.
They come here in many cases because they are desperate to escape the generations-long aftermath of our then President's misguided, paranoid policies. It was 36 years ago and almost none of us noticed or cared.
The popular movements against corrupt, tin dictators all over Central America were met with violence and unspeakable repression courtesy of American training, arms and funding.
Dumb policy always comes home to roost and boomerang on us. If you destabilize another nation, people pick up and move.
Can you imagine what this foretells for us given Trump and company…their epic stupidity.
Wow.
This type of visceral story and explanation of today's policy needs to be heard.
I believe a great majority of Americans would be sympathetic.
I wonder…
Maybe if the Reagan administration in the 80's had not pursued the most inhuman foreign policy in Central America - destabilizing entire civil societies by giving arms and training and material support to the most anti-democracy, authoritarian, violent movements and people - we would not see today those nations in turmoil, who's people often flee for their lives.
They come here in many cases because they are desperate to escape the generations-long aftermath of our then President's misguided, paranoid policies. It was 36 years ago and almost none of us noticed or cared.
The popular movements against corrupt, tin dictators all over Central America were met with violence and unspeakable repression courtesy of American training, arms and funding.
Dumb policy always comes home to roost and boomerang on us. If you destabilize another nation, people pick up and move.
Can you imagine what this foretells for us given Trump and company…their epic stupidity.
3
Why should we be surprised?
The Trump administration - aided by the active or silent - support of Republicans in Congress continues their program of hatred.
Shame on them for doing this, and shame on Americans for letting it happen!
This is not who we are. This is not the shining city on the hill for the world to admire and aspire too. These are the actions of a small hatefull tyrant.
The Trump administration - aided by the active or silent - support of Republicans in Congress continues their program of hatred.
Shame on them for doing this, and shame on Americans for letting it happen!
This is not who we are. This is not the shining city on the hill for the world to admire and aspire too. These are the actions of a small hatefull tyrant.
5
Ah yes, the law! First we fashion the law-in accordance with the cultural views of the time and the locale. Then we have the letter of the law - to be interpreted literally or with judgment. Next comes the actual practice of the law - and we are back to cultural views, judgment and literal interpretations. Literal interpretations often lead to absurd conclusions. It must have been embarrassing for the DOJ lawyer to have to argue this case before the court,
1
This is an insightful piece of commentary, shockingly appropriate to our times in the United States. I have come to believe that Americans who voted for Trump did so because of one reason, and one reason alone: his oft-stated hatred of immigrants. Perhaps it arises out of self-hatred, perhaps just out of pure sociopathy. No matter what, we - immigrants and natural-born citizens alike - stand to lose our common American roots because of this single catastrophic event - the election of Donald Trump.
4
Those who criticize the author for equating Holocaust victims and undocumented people here are missing the point. The point is that in both instances, the government drew an exceedingly broad and arbitrary definition of what constitutes a "criminal." When we hear the term "criminal," we think of someone who has willfully done something in violation of the law, that an upstanding member of society would not -- think violent crimes, theft, some drug offenses. It's easy to garner support for deporting immigrants who have done that. But what about minor offenses, offenses that most adults have committed at one time or another? Should people who do this be labeled as "criminals," subject to having their lives upended?
Some argue that entering without permission, or overstaying a visa, is a crime in and of itself. But that ignores the complexity of how we came to have 11 million undocumented immigrants here in the first place; it is a product of a ridiculously understaffed bureaucracy for processing immigration applicants AND an economy that functions on cheap immigrant labor. You can't view the issue of illegal immigration without acknowledging these two realities, and to now, after all these years of benefitting from cheap immigrant labor, place people who have built their lives here in constant fear of having their families ripped apart, is arbitrary and cruel. It's not Nazi Germany, but the arbitrariness of what constitutes a "criminal" is the issue.
Some argue that entering without permission, or overstaying a visa, is a crime in and of itself. But that ignores the complexity of how we came to have 11 million undocumented immigrants here in the first place; it is a product of a ridiculously understaffed bureaucracy for processing immigration applicants AND an economy that functions on cheap immigrant labor. You can't view the issue of illegal immigration without acknowledging these two realities, and to now, after all these years of benefitting from cheap immigrant labor, place people who have built their lives here in constant fear of having their families ripped apart, is arbitrary and cruel. It's not Nazi Germany, but the arbitrariness of what constitutes a "criminal" is the issue.
1
Trump's creeping fascism terrifies me. Demonizing and alienating people is only part of his strategy, but it might be the most cruel part.
To resist Trump, we must resist setting people apart and pushing them away and celebrate what is greatest about the USA: diversity, including immigration.
To resist Trump, we must resist setting people apart and pushing them away and celebrate what is greatest about the USA: diversity, including immigration.
2
I was absolutely shocked to read the argument from the Justice Dept.'s lawyer that people should be stripped of citizenship for failing to report the most minor incidents (even if they weren't caught). As Justice Roberts suggested, a person could be stripped of citizen ship if they failed to report that they drove 5 mph over the speed limit even though they didn't get a ticket. Should prospective citizens have to report unkind thoughts too?
Under their proposed law, if the 'inJustice Dept' were not lead by Sessions, they might have a closer look at Melania Trump's application for citizenship. If they found that she didn't report a jay walking incident from years ago (although she wasn't caught) they'd have to strip her of her citizenship and deport her?
I cannot believe that we are wasting US dollars and Supreme Court time on such absurdity! Every day has become a Trump limbo dance - how low can you go?
Under their proposed law, if the 'inJustice Dept' were not lead by Sessions, they might have a closer look at Melania Trump's application for citizenship. If they found that she didn't report a jay walking incident from years ago (although she wasn't caught) they'd have to strip her of her citizenship and deport her?
I cannot believe that we are wasting US dollars and Supreme Court time on such absurdity! Every day has become a Trump limbo dance - how low can you go?
3
trump's immigrant criminality nicely gravitates to the broadest interpretation as to who will then be labeled undesirable. In 30's Germany undesirable elites eventually encompassed virtually all intellects. It seems to me that this is where this government is pointing. No one will be safe from the man who stood up to college graduates.
3
So is Melania up for deportation under their view of legality or what?
Didn't she work without proper documentation and lie about it during naturalization? Wouldn't this render her deportable according to the administration?
Didn't she work without proper documentation and lie about it during naturalization? Wouldn't this render her deportable according to the administration?
11
She will be. The moment Trump gets tired of her, as he does of all his women.
That's probably the reason he is driving this. It would be his cheapest divorce ever.
That's probably the reason he is driving this. It would be his cheapest divorce ever.
"5,441 of 21,362" arrested illegal immigrants had "no history of violating the law". And that is presented as criticism of ICE's actions? Really?
That means that of the illegal immigrants arrested in that period, 75% (3 out of 4) had a criminal history, beyond the crime of illegal entry into the US.
That is an amazing confirmation that the vast majority of illegal immigrants being arrested have a criminal history, as defined by the author. Bravo. Lets get them out of our streets and our country.
Liberals will never win this argument. Trying to defend illegal immigrants with additional crimes will alienate all thinking, law and order Americans.
That means that of the illegal immigrants arrested in that period, 75% (3 out of 4) had a criminal history, beyond the crime of illegal entry into the US.
That is an amazing confirmation that the vast majority of illegal immigrants being arrested have a criminal history, as defined by the author. Bravo. Lets get them out of our streets and our country.
Liberals will never win this argument. Trying to defend illegal immigrants with additional crimes will alienate all thinking, law and order Americans.
4
The fact that the Trump administration would attempt to make this argument, that a person's citizenship could be revoked because of some past, undisclosed or recorded transgression, should be a red flag so large it blots out the sun.
Add to this, Trump's invitation to the Philippine's murderous dictator and his suggestion the Constitution is archaic, should cause us all to take a stance of constant hyper-vigilance and action. Multiply it by his congratulatory chat with Turkey's new supreme leader and we have some problems, y'all.
Trump is now the most dangerous human being on the planet. bar none. His disregard for the truth and for the Constitution has made him in violation of his oath of office, since the moment he uttered the words. And then there's the Emolument's Clause.
It is the obligation of the non-executive branches of government to prevent this man from moving an inch in any direction, until we can legally remove him and his henchmen from office.
The dismantling of American Democracy would deliver Trump's boss, Vladimir Putin, what the Cold War could not.
Interesting how masses of ill informed people can be more effective than any expensive arms race.
We need to expedite the investigation into collusion before Trump incites a war with North Korea and our power grid goes down for a year.
That's your Riechstag moment, y'all. Steve Bannon knows this. I'd bet it's the topic of their late night chats, he and Don.
Now's a good time to build a garden.
Add to this, Trump's invitation to the Philippine's murderous dictator and his suggestion the Constitution is archaic, should cause us all to take a stance of constant hyper-vigilance and action. Multiply it by his congratulatory chat with Turkey's new supreme leader and we have some problems, y'all.
Trump is now the most dangerous human being on the planet. bar none. His disregard for the truth and for the Constitution has made him in violation of his oath of office, since the moment he uttered the words. And then there's the Emolument's Clause.
It is the obligation of the non-executive branches of government to prevent this man from moving an inch in any direction, until we can legally remove him and his henchmen from office.
The dismantling of American Democracy would deliver Trump's boss, Vladimir Putin, what the Cold War could not.
Interesting how masses of ill informed people can be more effective than any expensive arms race.
We need to expedite the investigation into collusion before Trump incites a war with North Korea and our power grid goes down for a year.
That's your Riechstag moment, y'all. Steve Bannon knows this. I'd bet it's the topic of their late night chats, he and Don.
Now's a good time to build a garden.
1
Actually, Tutsi were most frequently described as "cockroaches," not snakes.
Well its refreshing to see that apparently the Judicial branch is still not yet infected by the racial sickness that seems to be spreading - again, in the US.
So far its the Judicial Branch doing the hard work of resisting the racial fear mongering the Trump Admin is promoting...as well as their inept means to try and enforce it.
Not so much backbone being shown by the GOP, and the Dems...well, they're still being wimps.
Who knew I'd be this happy about Chief Justice Roberts POV on a case.
The depth of vigilance being forced upon the citizenry by this Admin is astounding, and scares me a little. Its like we're being assaulted by swarms of hornets coming in every window at the same time. While the ants are over-running the cupboards too...the way the WH and its lap-dog Justice Dept is currently behaving...
Our vigilance is being severely tested.
So far its the Judicial Branch doing the hard work of resisting the racial fear mongering the Trump Admin is promoting...as well as their inept means to try and enforce it.
Not so much backbone being shown by the GOP, and the Dems...well, they're still being wimps.
Who knew I'd be this happy about Chief Justice Roberts POV on a case.
The depth of vigilance being forced upon the citizenry by this Admin is astounding, and scares me a little. Its like we're being assaulted by swarms of hornets coming in every window at the same time. While the ants are over-running the cupboards too...the way the WH and its lap-dog Justice Dept is currently behaving...
Our vigilance is being severely tested.
1
If we were to apply the awful plan that the Swiss extremists wanted to pass, than President Trump could be swept up based on his record, and sent back to Scotland, or to Germany (or to Sweden, for that matter, since he lied in print about his father's heritage).
There is a way to address the illegal immigration issue with laws already on the books. . . . Enforce the laws which prohibit hiring anyone who cannot document their right to be here. That will choke off the flow across the border. We saw this when our country was in recession. As jobs dried up so did border crossings.
There are of course consequences, as the source of low wage employees dries up, your strawberries will now cost $25 per box, there will be a housing and construction shortage, dinner at your favorite restaurant will start at $100, and you will have to mow your own lawn. . .
I predict that when the consequences of Trump's border enforcement program starts impacting his buddies in the country club set, the enforcement actions will become a much lower priority. Our lifestyle depends on this wink and nod arrangement with Mexico.
There are of course consequences, as the source of low wage employees dries up, your strawberries will now cost $25 per box, there will be a housing and construction shortage, dinner at your favorite restaurant will start at $100, and you will have to mow your own lawn. . .
I predict that when the consequences of Trump's border enforcement program starts impacting his buddies in the country club set, the enforcement actions will become a much lower priority. Our lifestyle depends on this wink and nod arrangement with Mexico.
1
It is disturbing to me that when interiewed, Trump makes statements that say he isn't planning to have all undocumented workers or illegal aliens deported, only those with criminal histories - 'bad dudes', 'bad hombres' BUT we regularly see news stories that report people are being picked up and deported when they show up for a regular check-in with immigration services. In many instances they are deported to "their country" when it has been many years since they lived there or in some instances do not even speak Spanish. The administration appointees all seem to be in lockstep with regard to deportation and seem to have the attitude that "the President's powers will not be questioned". All his powers need to be questioned!
2
The article is incorrect on one point at least. Read Trump's Executive Order of Jan 25 and you will see that not even a trivial criminal violation is needed for one to be a priority for deportation. All that is needed is that an immigration official thinks that the person 'pose() a risk to public safety.'
1
Regardless of whether it's a proper position to be taken by the government it is troubling that the author did not explain the Obama administration inherited and prosecuted the case throughout his eight year presidency. Trump has hardly touched it. He is the author of a book about propaganda.
1
Utilizing the author's cogent expression for criminality; "a resonant meaning — people who by their nature are insensitive to society’s norms", leads to the obvious conclusion that, President Trump is a criminal.
"someone who commits a crime is not necessarily a criminal"
This from a professor, at Yale no less. And we wonder what's wrong with the higher education institutes in the US. There's stupidity and then there's self destruction. Why exactly are animals any less than human beings? For that matter plants are life too - What do you get to eat as food then? You can stretch philosophy to self-immolation but vast majority of Americans do not want to do that and for very good reasons. So lay off with the non-sense. This is exactly the reason why we have a narcissistic, inexperienced leader as President.
This from a professor, at Yale no less. And we wonder what's wrong with the higher education institutes in the US. There's stupidity and then there's self destruction. Why exactly are animals any less than human beings? For that matter plants are life too - What do you get to eat as food then? You can stretch philosophy to self-immolation but vast majority of Americans do not want to do that and for very good reasons. So lay off with the non-sense. This is exactly the reason why we have a narcissistic, inexperienced leader as President.
4
They are not immigrants, an immigrant is a person that comes into a country legally, they apply to the countries government they wish to immigrate to and then when the government approves the person for entry they are immigrants. When you break into a country by illegally crossing the countries border without permission then you are an illegal alien or illegal immigrant. You should be charged with a felony and an deported
3
This is a compelling comparison of Serbia to Nazi Germany. Not so much for the US and Nazis.
Jews, Catholics, gypsies, and others in Nazi Germany were not refugees. They didn't willfully ignore German law and sneak in. They were born there. Muslims, ethnic Albanians, and others in the Balkans were similar - born there.
The case before the Supreme Court involves a woman who claimed to be a refugee. She said she faced persecution in Bosnia. She said husband had not served in the military. In fact, her husband served in a unit that was linked to war crimes. She faced no persecution. Her husband was a likely war criminal. That's two very material lies.
The US extradites war criminals - Nazis and Serbs. In recent years we have done so for both wars. We have an established president of not giving criminals citizenship. Not to mention Mr. Obama had some American citizens executed without due process.
This is not the same thing as lying about speeding. In fact, the infractions inferred here being used to deport illegals aren't crimes at all. Speeding, shoplifting, even DUI are misdemeanors - IOW, not criminal. Justice Roberts knows that.
The VOICE program was inspired by real cases of illegal aliens - hundreds of them - killing Americans. During the campaign Mr. Trump met the Remembrance Project (http://theremembranceproject.org). Hearing their stories, he was moved to act.
This isn't the same thing. It's a classic fallacy of false equivalence.
Jews, Catholics, gypsies, and others in Nazi Germany were not refugees. They didn't willfully ignore German law and sneak in. They were born there. Muslims, ethnic Albanians, and others in the Balkans were similar - born there.
The case before the Supreme Court involves a woman who claimed to be a refugee. She said she faced persecution in Bosnia. She said husband had not served in the military. In fact, her husband served in a unit that was linked to war crimes. She faced no persecution. Her husband was a likely war criminal. That's two very material lies.
The US extradites war criminals - Nazis and Serbs. In recent years we have done so for both wars. We have an established president of not giving criminals citizenship. Not to mention Mr. Obama had some American citizens executed without due process.
This is not the same thing as lying about speeding. In fact, the infractions inferred here being used to deport illegals aren't crimes at all. Speeding, shoplifting, even DUI are misdemeanors - IOW, not criminal. Justice Roberts knows that.
The VOICE program was inspired by real cases of illegal aliens - hundreds of them - killing Americans. During the campaign Mr. Trump met the Remembrance Project (http://theremembranceproject.org). Hearing their stories, he was moved to act.
This isn't the same thing. It's a classic fallacy of false equivalence.
3
My grandfather was arrested the morning after Kristallnacht, for what crime he never knew. He was a well respected woolen's manufacturer in his town, had served in the German army in WWI earning an iron cross for bravery. He was lucky in that he was released from a concentration camp after 3 weeks, and escaped with his family to the USA at the expense of his former life, home property and a tattooed number on his forearm.
When I look at my governments reaction to immigrants, illegal or otherwise my stomach turns. We cannot let horrors like this be repeated again in our own time.
When I look at my governments reaction to immigrants, illegal or otherwise my stomach turns. We cannot let horrors like this be repeated again in our own time.
1
Trump... compared... immigrants to poisonous snakes, to great applause...
It is difficult to admit that my neighbors with Trump signs are that vile. I suppose that's a central point of this piece.
It is difficult to admit that my neighbors with Trump signs are that vile. I suppose that's a central point of this piece.
1
Jason Stanley has written an excellent well-reasoned criticism of the Trump administration's policy regarding "criminal" aliens. Thank you.
Who among us has not committed a crime? Never engaged in petty shoplifting as a kid? Never sped through a residential street? Never failed to signal a lane change? (Never experimented at least once with MJ? Shhh!)
I'm a 10th generation American citizen of Finnish origins and look it, (Nordic), so there's no chance that I'll be deported for any of those crimes. But if were a 2nd or 3rd generation Hispanic whose parents or grandparents crept across the border in search of a better life, I'd be going underground as much as possible.
If mugged by thugs on the street, I wouldn't call the police. If my sister were raped by an athlete at university, I'd urge her not to report it. If my father found a discrepancy in the sales tax collections reporting for his hardware store, I'd plead with him to just let it go and hope for the best. I'd avoid checking the "ethnic" box at doctor's offices, where it might be important. And I certainly wouldn't celebrate Cinco de Mayo with even the tiniest Mexican flag in the vase on my nightstand!
But my Finnish ancestors fled to America from one of those interminable Russian invasions, so I have nothing to worry about. Nothing at all.
I'm a 10th generation American citizen of Finnish origins and look it, (Nordic), so there's no chance that I'll be deported for any of those crimes. But if were a 2nd or 3rd generation Hispanic whose parents or grandparents crept across the border in search of a better life, I'd be going underground as much as possible.
If mugged by thugs on the street, I wouldn't call the police. If my sister were raped by an athlete at university, I'd urge her not to report it. If my father found a discrepancy in the sales tax collections reporting for his hardware store, I'd plead with him to just let it go and hope for the best. I'd avoid checking the "ethnic" box at doctor's offices, where it might be important. And I certainly wouldn't celebrate Cinco de Mayo with even the tiniest Mexican flag in the vase on my nightstand!
But my Finnish ancestors fled to America from one of those interminable Russian invasions, so I have nothing to worry about. Nothing at all.
3
My grandfather was jailed by the Gestapo in the mid-30s fro the crime of exporting gold as he hustled my father and family out of Germany.
But in most of America the term "crime" has a specific meaning and it does NOT include parking tickets or speeding tickets. In my state there are three classes of "offenses," - felonies, misdemeanors, and infractions. The latter refers to things that are truly minor, cannot result in any jail and accordingly you get no free lawyer or jury trial.
As a local prosecutor there is no doubt the Trump administration is crossing a line other administrations did not. They are detaining people who are not citizens after ARREST on certain crimes, not waiting for conviction, as has been the custom for decades.
That said, what is a "minor crime?" The drist drunk driving? The second? The burglary of a business, the burglary of a home, domestic violence, or does it have to be repeat domestic violence? I don't know the answer but I do know we could not convince ICE to deport a convicted child molester about 5 years ago.
I grew up in Southern California where the dreaded "migra" and their green vans were a source of great dread. That was not much better than the fear many immigrants feel today, but what should be the dividing line?
Using the Holocaust and the difference between multiple homicides and speeding tickets does not help the conversation of those who do not want to see deporatation raids.
But in most of America the term "crime" has a specific meaning and it does NOT include parking tickets or speeding tickets. In my state there are three classes of "offenses," - felonies, misdemeanors, and infractions. The latter refers to things that are truly minor, cannot result in any jail and accordingly you get no free lawyer or jury trial.
As a local prosecutor there is no doubt the Trump administration is crossing a line other administrations did not. They are detaining people who are not citizens after ARREST on certain crimes, not waiting for conviction, as has been the custom for decades.
That said, what is a "minor crime?" The drist drunk driving? The second? The burglary of a business, the burglary of a home, domestic violence, or does it have to be repeat domestic violence? I don't know the answer but I do know we could not convince ICE to deport a convicted child molester about 5 years ago.
I grew up in Southern California where the dreaded "migra" and their green vans were a source of great dread. That was not much better than the fear many immigrants feel today, but what should be the dividing line?
Using the Holocaust and the difference between multiple homicides and speeding tickets does not help the conversation of those who do not want to see deporatation raids.
1
What I do know that the Trump Administration may be interested in, is that when you lie during your vetting for a Top Secret Clearance as his Son in-law, Jarod Kushner, about his meeting with at least two Russian government officials during the vetting process, you not only have your Top Secret Clearance revoke, many time you will be terminated from the position; at least that was the way it was when I worked in the DOD for the Federal Government.
2
Yep the usual. Citizenship, let's research back to the Constitution. Guns; let's make up some new rules.
As a reminder, the Supreme court case mentioned dealt with a woman married to a man who served in a Serbian military unit accused of human rights abuses, who lied about it. This case was started in the Obama Admin. This was not a parking ticket "crime".
Since I live in a highly taxed state, I've born the consequences of illegal immigration. Our school taxes have risen drastically, medical costs drastically, policing cost have risen, due to the illegal immigrant population. ( Crimes are being committed by illegals against other illegals since so many are paid in cash) Our sanitary rules have be flouted by unscrupulous landlords letting homes be occupied by 20 - 30 illegals were 4 are allowed, increasing the burdens on our sanitation systems and overflowing septic systems.
I'm now dealing with the likely possibility of having to sell my home, the home where I've lived for 50 years, lovingly repaired it, (mowed the lawn myself), and have been connected to my community all these years. My community is no longer affordable for the middle class; firemen, police, etc. can't afford to live in the community they serve.
It's too late for me, but Trump has it right.
PS: I couldn't vote for Trump, (voted for Johnson), solely based on immigration because of his buffonery, but I agreed with him on immigration.
Since I live in a highly taxed state, I've born the consequences of illegal immigration. Our school taxes have risen drastically, medical costs drastically, policing cost have risen, due to the illegal immigrant population. ( Crimes are being committed by illegals against other illegals since so many are paid in cash) Our sanitary rules have be flouted by unscrupulous landlords letting homes be occupied by 20 - 30 illegals were 4 are allowed, increasing the burdens on our sanitation systems and overflowing septic systems.
I'm now dealing with the likely possibility of having to sell my home, the home where I've lived for 50 years, lovingly repaired it, (mowed the lawn myself), and have been connected to my community all these years. My community is no longer affordable for the middle class; firemen, police, etc. can't afford to live in the community they serve.
It's too late for me, but Trump has it right.
PS: I couldn't vote for Trump, (voted for Johnson), solely based on immigration because of his buffonery, but I agreed with him on immigration.
2
still, anyone who assaults or threatens the innocent, abuses animals and children, commits identity theft, or engages in knowing fraud deserves none of my sympathy. I may have to live among them, have them rule over me in government, or be the boss but they get no respect and as little help as i can give.
The only bright spot in this is that the Supreme Court is getting quite familiar with the facist tendencies of this administration during its first 100 days.
Since Congress refuses to do their job, it will be up to the judiciary to defend the Constitution. So far they seem up to the task.
Since Congress refuses to do their job, it will be up to the judiciary to defend the Constitution. So far they seem up to the task.
Prof. Stanley asks a very poignant question in this excellent, thought-provoking opinion piece: "How, then, have so many of us accepted these policies so at odds with our American values?" I believe that the answer rests, in part, by a strong 'me vs them' or 'us vs them' attitude. The mass deportation of undocumented people (and their American-born children) 'doesn't affect me!' And, besides, 'they're here illegally', and 'they broke the law by coming here illegally.' 'It's not MY problem.' Just as the Nazis portrayed Jews as inhuman, as rats, so, too, has Trump portrayed undocumented people as "rapists and murderers". This is further exacerbated by Republicans who often display a lack of empathy.
2
Banishment to exile was the punishment for the 1%; Hoi Polloi were not exiled
1
Maybe he's winnowing the " criminals " so there's less competition.
2
Any degree to which I have become inured to the fundamental venomousness of this administration by virtue that it exists in Washington, you helped clear that poisonous miasma away.
Thank you.
Thank you.
1
An immigrant who omits breaking a law? Deport!
A corporation that omits breaking a law? Tax Cuts!
A man who omits truth over falsehoods? President!
A corporation that omits breaking a law? Tax Cuts!
A man who omits truth over falsehoods? President!
3
The question comes down to whether Trump will succeed at becoming a demagogic leader of a fascist regime. He is using all the tools that have previously worked in this and other countries.
1
Prominent science fiction writer Larry Niven created a world in which eternal life was obtained by organ transplant from criminals, including those who committed traffic offenses. It was probably the most outlandish and hoffifying thing he could think of at the time.
1
You all should check the immigration law. Title 8 provides for the deportation of people that haven't committed crimes. Title 8 has been the law for decades.
3
"You all should check the immigration law. Title 8 provides for the deportation of people that haven't committed crimes. Title 8 has been the law for decades."
It has also been the law that it is illegal to employ undocumented workers. It has been the law for decades. It was the law when Donald Trump employed undocumented workers on his job site in 1980.
It has also been the law that it is illegal to employ undocumented workers. It has been the law for decades. It was the law when Donald Trump employed undocumented workers on his job site in 1980.
Stanley: "It was the spring of 1936. My grandmother, Ilse Stanley, had just returned from a theater tour ..."
AFAICT, the author's grandmother had no legal training, so she is not a reliable source for German law in 1936.
Stanley: "... Chief Justice John G. Roberts, Jr., ..."
Stanley fails to note that Roberts quotes Black's Law Dictionary or that there are two related terms, "crime" and "offense":
"CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: In Black's Law Dictionary, I looked up what's an offense? And this is what it says: It says it's a violation of the law, a crime, often a minor one."
https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2016/16...
Further, Stanley never mentions the US Constitution or the US Code, so Stanley doesn't seem to be a reliable source for law in general.
Stanley's essay would have been more persuasive if he had discussed AMERICAN law, instead of giving irrelevant examples from Nazi Germany and contemporary Switzerland.
AFAICT, the author's grandmother had no legal training, so she is not a reliable source for German law in 1936.
Stanley: "... Chief Justice John G. Roberts, Jr., ..."
Stanley fails to note that Roberts quotes Black's Law Dictionary or that there are two related terms, "crime" and "offense":
"CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: In Black's Law Dictionary, I looked up what's an offense? And this is what it says: It says it's a violation of the law, a crime, often a minor one."
https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2016/16...
Further, Stanley never mentions the US Constitution or the US Code, so Stanley doesn't seem to be a reliable source for law in general.
Stanley's essay would have been more persuasive if he had discussed AMERICAN law, instead of giving irrelevant examples from Nazi Germany and contemporary Switzerland.
2
After years of organizing community-driven Restorative Justice programs for the State of Vermont, and delving deep into their working principles, I decided that the use of the word "criminal" as a noun is an example of pejorative labelling. And so I announced to my justice reform contacts worldwide that in the literature of our movement, using "criminal" as a noun would be regarded as both unethical, and as a violation of English grammar. I can think of no legitimate reason to refer to another human being as "a criminal". When considering crimes and other transgressions, and if you are seeking true justice, there are only human beings and other creatures and objects to be considered, and justice can be considered restorative ('healing') only if it seeks to address harm or damages with a view toward 'making things right' to the extent possible.
Plainly Mr. Trump never embraces such considerations, and thus I consider him benighted; someone who hasn't fully progressed to his full potential as a human being. Why are there no stories of a gallant or charitable D.J. Trump? Because the accounts of him are rife with greed and corruption.
Plainly Mr. Trump never embraces such considerations, and thus I consider him benighted; someone who hasn't fully progressed to his full potential as a human being. Why are there no stories of a gallant or charitable D.J. Trump? Because the accounts of him are rife with greed and corruption.
112
We are all human beings and some of us respect the law. Most comments prove how much we are living in a time where relativism rules. I don't understand why so many are more preoccupied with defending illegal aliens then poor Americans. Fellow citizens that fight for their survival.
I have been coming to the US for close to 10 years. I could have chosen to stay illegally. I chose not to. I will follow legal channels eventually.
When you argue some laws are unfair, and nobody should be labeled criminal for not respecting laws, it's no wonder some people are afraid for the future of the country.
Instead of criticizing a president that was democratically elected, get to work to improve the life of your fellow legal citizens.
I have been coming to the US for close to 10 years. I could have chosen to stay illegally. I chose not to. I will follow legal channels eventually.
When you argue some laws are unfair, and nobody should be labeled criminal for not respecting laws, it's no wonder some people are afraid for the future of the country.
Instead of criticizing a president that was democratically elected, get to work to improve the life of your fellow legal citizens.
2
America doesn't punish unauthorized immigrants, even though the penalty for entering the country illegally or working in the United States without authorization includes fines and/or incarceration. It merely requires them to stop violating immigration laws and return to their home countries. For example, about 17.5 million Mexicans visit the United States each year and nearly all voluntarily return home. Mexican nationals arrested and deported for entering the country illegally or residing unlawfully in the United States make up a tiny percent of Mexicans returning from the United States to Mexico each year.
5
John, as an 'habitual criminal,' I appreciate your values and comments. The label has been burned / branded into me since the 60's; thus my path has been and remains outside looking in. How long? Life long: from 23 to 74 ... the result if an artificial construct. Ironically, I know one when I see one ... and over time I've observed countless persons and behaviors of true 'criminal intent.'
Five years in the Louisiana State Penitentiary was, in truth, a game changer. But the heart of the matter are felony convictions, handed out as if they are toy trucks from inside a cereal box. Seven plus percent of the American population are adjudicated felons, roughly equivalent to the population of the State of New York, man, woman and child. "Criminals," one and all. We are the most criminalized nation in the world ... while so many of the most insidious violators of public well being sit in judgement and control over community well being. Am I making reference to Trump and his goons? Of course.
Five years in the Louisiana State Penitentiary was, in truth, a game changer. But the heart of the matter are felony convictions, handed out as if they are toy trucks from inside a cereal box. Seven plus percent of the American population are adjudicated felons, roughly equivalent to the population of the State of New York, man, woman and child. "Criminals," one and all. We are the most criminalized nation in the world ... while so many of the most insidious violators of public well being sit in judgement and control over community well being. Am I making reference to Trump and his goons? Of course.
I don't remember who defined, but it might have been Plato, that there are laws that are based on our common group perception of "right and wrong" and laws that exist for the smooth running of society and under most circumstances are not "criminal".
The obvious example of Chief Justice John Roberts, who, like all of us, has exceeded the Double-Nickel (55mph) frequently. Most traffic laws are just that: Conveniences to oil the wheels of society.
But even when harm is inflicted and there is a victim, either of physical, or financial harm, it is not necessarily "criminal" in the sense of evil. That's why there's a clear difference between criminal and civil law. Losing a lawsuit doesn't make you a criminal.
Speeding IS a great example because multiple studies have shown that no matter the actual speed limit, the SAFE speed to drive is basically the same speed 85% of the other drivers are going at. The ones who are outside that group on either end are the dangerous ones, and, surprisingly, the ones going too slow are the MOST dangerous! But nobody wants to arrest an old person doing 45 in a 65 zone, yet wants the "maniac" doing 85 locked up.
I'm happy to see that both Chief Justice Roberts and Justice Kennedy fully recognize the totally ridiculous and don't look to be at all willing to bend to the Trumpists' pretzel "logic". I guess Trump will want them impeached when they "cross" him!
The obvious example of Chief Justice John Roberts, who, like all of us, has exceeded the Double-Nickel (55mph) frequently. Most traffic laws are just that: Conveniences to oil the wheels of society.
But even when harm is inflicted and there is a victim, either of physical, or financial harm, it is not necessarily "criminal" in the sense of evil. That's why there's a clear difference between criminal and civil law. Losing a lawsuit doesn't make you a criminal.
Speeding IS a great example because multiple studies have shown that no matter the actual speed limit, the SAFE speed to drive is basically the same speed 85% of the other drivers are going at. The ones who are outside that group on either end are the dangerous ones, and, surprisingly, the ones going too slow are the MOST dangerous! But nobody wants to arrest an old person doing 45 in a 65 zone, yet wants the "maniac" doing 85 locked up.
I'm happy to see that both Chief Justice Roberts and Justice Kennedy fully recognize the totally ridiculous and don't look to be at all willing to bend to the Trumpists' pretzel "logic". I guess Trump will want them impeached when they "cross" him!
73
I silently cheered when I first read of Chief Justice Roberts' comments at the oral argument. However, I am holding my breath until I see how he votes.
1
He'll soon be calling them "so-called" Justices.
I am a naturalized American citizen. A few years after the paperwork was completed and I acquired my passport, I discovered that I had made an error in the documents I swore were correct.
My father died. He was a naturalized Canadian citizen of middle European ancestry. When we found his documents they showed that he had been born in his mother's country of origin rather than his father's, as he had always stated. He was proud of his father's heritage, ashamed of his mother's, and had consequently nudged his own birth in the paternal direction.
Donald won't bother with me. But it's creepy to know that the same kind of small 'lie' could cost another person their citizenship.
My father died. He was a naturalized Canadian citizen of middle European ancestry. When we found his documents they showed that he had been born in his mother's country of origin rather than his father's, as he had always stated. He was proud of his father's heritage, ashamed of his mother's, and had consequently nudged his own birth in the paternal direction.
Donald won't bother with me. But it's creepy to know that the same kind of small 'lie' could cost another person their citizenship.
141
If you examine the facts of the case in Maslenjak v. United States, you will see that the women was well aware of the facts, but chose to lie on her application. That is a different situation, when one makes an honest mistake based on someone else's lie. Your father's citizenship would have been in question due to his lie, yours would not because you were working under false pretenses.
3
I hope you are right.
The clear problem with the immigration issue is that, yes, undocumented immigrants are actually breaking the law. Yes they are all actually here illegally. Regardless of any other consideration Trump and his supporters are correct.
However, there are many layers to this issue that make the illegal status not so cut and dry. That is the crux of the matter. Humanity, children who are citizens, Dreamers, people with many years of acting just as honestly and as law abiding as any natural citizen are all factors that cause complexities to the matter.
But at it's most basic, the anti-immigrant forces are correct. Undocumented immigrants is just words. They are in fact illegal immigrants and are breaking the law.
However, there are many layers to this issue that make the illegal status not so cut and dry. That is the crux of the matter. Humanity, children who are citizens, Dreamers, people with many years of acting just as honestly and as law abiding as any natural citizen are all factors that cause complexities to the matter.
But at it's most basic, the anti-immigrant forces are correct. Undocumented immigrants is just words. They are in fact illegal immigrants and are breaking the law.
10
wfisher1, they are in fact undocumented immigrants. Illegal immigrants is just words.
By the way, you have never, never broken any law? Are you sure?
By the way, you have never, never broken any law? Are you sure?
28
People who accept the rhetoric about illegal aliens, or similar descriptions, say that it's unfair that the latter arrived in the U.S. without jumping through the hoops and waiting on government's authorization, and without playing by the rules. As a plain-spoken expression of fact, their way of thinking stops there, never mind due process, never mind life stories, never mind their own selves being emotionally manipulated by antis opposed to inclusiveness, and never mind the underhanded reactionary policies dead set against illegal aliens.
And the anti-immigrant forces rallied to a candidate and now President who committed massive fraud and theft through his fake university, massive theft of services by stiffing vendors and contractors on so many jobs and out of so much money that many went bankrupt, and illegally denied housing to responsible black buyers and renters who could otherwise have afforded his buildings but were systematically turned down because of their skin color. This argument that undocumented immigrants should be deported as lawbreakers is a cruel joke by comparison.
Dear Professor Stanley,
When the fanatical fringe elements of a culture mutate and slowly coalesce to become the mainstream of that culture, such that the brainwashed of both left and right become the front and center, not only does the nation fragment and get torn to pieces, so does every last word in the language of that nation.
No more common ground, no more common decency, no more common courtesy. Only ever more common criminals running things, torching things, and breaking things.
Kleptocracy, plutocracy, idiocracy - anything but a meritocracy, whether in moral, economic, or intellectual standing. So forget trying to "define" who or what is a criminal in today's America. The real question is - Who ISN'T One?
Cordially,
S.A. Traina
When the fanatical fringe elements of a culture mutate and slowly coalesce to become the mainstream of that culture, such that the brainwashed of both left and right become the front and center, not only does the nation fragment and get torn to pieces, so does every last word in the language of that nation.
No more common ground, no more common decency, no more common courtesy. Only ever more common criminals running things, torching things, and breaking things.
Kleptocracy, plutocracy, idiocracy - anything but a meritocracy, whether in moral, economic, or intellectual standing. So forget trying to "define" who or what is a criminal in today's America. The real question is - Who ISN'T One?
Cordially,
S.A. Traina
I'm not sure what has happened to those 21,362 people who have been arrested, particularly if they have no criminal record. Are they released with a court date in hand or do they remain in jail until they get their day in court?
24
Some will be released in the short run, others not. The vast majority ultimately will be deported. A few will qualify for more-or-less extraordinary types of relief.
With our new "for Profit" prison system, most probably remain in jail!
It is a mistake to ascribe subtlety of thought to the current administration's policy on immigration (or much else for that matter). They are reactionary and intended to pander to the base fears of their most venal base. This cogent and cautionary case against categorical labeling presumes that the administration is open to reason, is interested in "justic". However, there is very little evidence that their motivations are anything other than the political equivalent of "sweeps week" sensationalism, designed to garner attention under the pretense of taking action. Unfortunately, reason, morality and the tradition of social compassion are no longer in fashion and are being relegated to re-runs.
Can we have an intelligent debate about immigration policy without using silly euphemisms? The author talks about immigrants "without status" and "undocumented immigrants" The do have status - they are not here legally. That doesn't mean that we have to deport them, but its not a "status" problem.The vast majority of the immigrants who are here illegally have some form of government identification, have children in out schools and yes, a small percentage are in jails. They are in fact very well documented.
19
We should still enforce our laws and deport them. This is not their nation.
1
As Chief Justice Roberts pointed out, the United States is a country where laws are strict, but enforcement is not. Thus, the government can freely choose who they will prosecute and whose crimes and infractions will be ignored.
The crux of the current immigration "problem" is precisely that the US ignored illegal border crossing for a long time. The undocumented provided a large pool of low wage workers so that American better offs could have cheap domestic servants, less expensive house repairs, and low priced restaurant meals.
After the great kleptocracy, known as The Great Recession, undocumented workers came to be seen as unwelcome competition for the only jobs available. Now the Trumpites demand that they must be rounded up and removed.
The crux of the current immigration "problem" is precisely that the US ignored illegal border crossing for a long time. The undocumented provided a large pool of low wage workers so that American better offs could have cheap domestic servants, less expensive house repairs, and low priced restaurant meals.
After the great kleptocracy, known as The Great Recession, undocumented workers came to be seen as unwelcome competition for the only jobs available. Now the Trumpites demand that they must be rounded up and removed.
17
Why do people keep saying that we didn't watch the border all these years. Yes we did. However, we didn't want to pay the type of taxes that would have been required for a near complete shut down. You get what you pay for.
1
It just makes sense to enforce the law if it means that fewer people are out of work and receiving government benefits and paying taxes properly on their wages.
1
Failure to disclose illegally working on a tourist visa is not a "trivial misstatement" in one's naturalization proceedings that Justice Roberts refers to. That would be a material issue if there ever was one.
That is what the evidence/timeline suggests Melania Trump did when she worked as a model without a work visa -- something the Trump campaign/Administration promised long ago to clear up with additional documentation, but has not.
That is what the evidence/timeline suggests Melania Trump did when she worked as a model without a work visa -- something the Trump campaign/Administration promised long ago to clear up with additional documentation, but has not.
106
She promised to show us her "papers." Oh wait, they're with Trump's tax returns. Never mind.
"... Melania Trump ...worked as a model without a work visa -- something the Trump campaign/Administration promised long ago to clear up with additional documentation, but has not."
Sadly, this in time will make Melania a target for criticism, which she does not deserve. Her husband COULD find ways to make this a learning opportunity for the nation, and lead Congress to constructive immigration reform that would carry credibility with the Right. But he shows no such inclination. That would take guts; more guts than building himself up by working up his crowds against a weaker group of people.
Sadly, this in time will make Melania a target for criticism, which she does not deserve. Her husband COULD find ways to make this a learning opportunity for the nation, and lead Congress to constructive immigration reform that would carry credibility with the Right. But he shows no such inclination. That would take guts; more guts than building himself up by working up his crowds against a weaker group of people.
Trump would no doubt pardon her as long as she did everything he wanted!
Someone needs to verify if Attorney General Jeff Sessions or if President Trump has ever paid a traffic fine or some other minor violation...they could be criminals. NO WAIT...in my opinion, they are criminals. They do not use the constitution of the United States to protect citizens and legal residents from abuse. They do not guarantee the rights of citizens and legal residents.
Professor Stanley is correct in his article that the current administration is outside the law, but the consequences are and will be dangerous for many years to come. God help us.
Professor Stanley is correct in his article that the current administration is outside the law, but the consequences are and will be dangerous for many years to come. God help us.
29
Many people have commented that being in the U.S. illegally is a crime. Granted, but the Justice Department is arguing that “the government may revoke the citizenship of Americans who made even trivial misstatements in their naturalization proceedings.” That means anyone here legally on a green card is subject to DOJ's interpretation of the law and possible deportation.
That's not just dangerous, it borders on tyranny.
That's not just dangerous, it borders on tyranny.
43
No - it is worse than that. Not just those on green cards, who are permanent residents, but citizens of other nations (with no right to vote here). But United States Citizens who happen to have held citizenship elsewhere at some time in the past. This means anyone who wasn't born here is subject to loss of citizenship.
"...That means anyone here legally on a green card is subject to DOJ's interpretation of the law and possible deportation...."
No surprise. We saw it coming. Most immigration lawyers I know advised their legal resident clients not to travel outside the US once Trump started with the immigration-related orders, whether they were from Muslim countries or not.
No surprise. We saw it coming. Most immigration lawyers I know advised their legal resident clients not to travel outside the US once Trump started with the immigration-related orders, whether they were from Muslim countries or not.
Where would you rather live, in a nation of speeders or in 1930's Germany? Trump fans have committed an ACTUAL crime, voting for a traitor, if not in the strictest "russian mole" sense, certainly in an "enemy of democracy" sense. The Courts are proving that the entire platform that Trump ran on is unconstitutional--I think that makes his supporters criminals, no?
21
What is really criminal is living with an election system that is rigged for the benefit of only a few.
"Deliberately obscuring the crucial distinction between someone who violates a law and someone whose character leads them to repeatedly commit serious crimes is an effective strategy for masking gross injustice."
Forget immigrants because this claim pertains to criminal justice laws and procedures in general. What goes unspoken is that the "crucial distinction" is often not made in practice until the criminal has left a trail of victims, their lives changed forever by rape, robbery, assault, battery, or ended by murder. Too late for them.
Public safety should not be equated with the road to genocide. That would be a sort of feel-good "progressive" Trumpism, in fact found often enough in media, Hollywood, and the academy
Forget immigrants because this claim pertains to criminal justice laws and procedures in general. What goes unspoken is that the "crucial distinction" is often not made in practice until the criminal has left a trail of victims, their lives changed forever by rape, robbery, assault, battery, or ended by murder. Too late for them.
Public safety should not be equated with the road to genocide. That would be a sort of feel-good "progressive" Trumpism, in fact found often enough in media, Hollywood, and the academy
Who is a criminal?
Trump, most of the GOP and 63,000,000 morally bankrupt voters.
What they've done and are continuing to do to this country is the crime of the century.
When you can get people to believe things that they know are untrue, and to say those lies out loud as truth, the game is already over.
We live in the age of the "true believer" - and it spells the end of this country.
Trump, most of the GOP and 63,000,000 morally bankrupt voters.
What they've done and are continuing to do to this country is the crime of the century.
When you can get people to believe things that they know are untrue, and to say those lies out loud as truth, the game is already over.
We live in the age of the "true believer" - and it spells the end of this country.
27
This is why liberals lose. The contempt for anyone who does not agree with them. How do you function knowing there are Trump voters out there?
1
Here is a better idea use this to find the "misstatements" Trumps father made as he was becoming a citizen then revoke Trumps citizenship because his father never should have been one. Ditto Sessions, McConnell, Ryan etc.....
They'll finally learn by facing the consequences of their own actions and we'll be rid of some pretty ugly people.
They'll finally learn by facing the consequences of their own actions and we'll be rid of some pretty ugly people.
21
Trump was born here so his citizenship cannot be revoked regardless of what his father may have done. Melania is a naturalized citizen so technically she could be denaturalized. I wonder if Trump would fight on her behalf if she were to become a test case or if he would see it as an opportunity to rejoin the dating world.
2
Indeed, imposing exile or imprisonment on someone represents signficant loss of freedom, and should be done only when "deserved". So I will throw Stanley's question back at him, and others: what does someone have to do to deserve such punishment?
For those with profusely bleeding hearts, can any individual be held responsible for their actions? For more moderate thinkers, what is the threshold that defines crime, at least crime worthy of punishment?
For those with profusely bleeding hearts, can any individual be held responsible for their actions? For more moderate thinkers, what is the threshold that defines crime, at least crime worthy of punishment?
3
For moderate thinkers, along the spectrum of speeding tickets to tax evasion, reasonable is probably closer to Emoluments Clause.
1
I don't understand your question. Generally courts are the final arbiters of crime. They don't tend to see immaterial misstatements of facts as crimes.
The administration has already targeted for deportation those young people who were brought here while children. Absent a current violation, by even the most generous interpretation of the law, they cannot be considered criminals. Nearly all are highly assimilated after having been educated in our schools. Like many others, they live in "mixed" families, i.e., those with both legal and illegal members. Thus the only way for the administration to carry out its deportation agenda is to sunder families. Perhaps it is time to reconsider our laws. We've had bad laws before, such as the Volstead Act or the 1850 Fugitive Slave Act, which resulted in the Dred Scott decision and was only voided by the Civil War Amendments. The 1850 law led to widespread civil disobedience in the North by those who refused to assist slave catchers. Today it is clear that the administration,already having initiated a campaign of fear and intimidation, is preparing for a massive removal of people which is likely to foment a modern version of the 1850 resistance. The alternatives are not simply to deport or risk anarchy as the administration believes. A more prudent and sensible way would be for a national debate that would focus on changing the law consistent with our public affirmations found in the Declaration of Independence and in the Gettysburg Address. A national debate on whether immigrants are endowed with certain unalienable rights would be refreshing and instructive.
11
I thought Trump decided not to pursue the Dreamers?
Comparing sending Mexicans home to Mexico with the freeing of slaves is preposterous. Just because you drag a child here does not mean you and the child get the right to break our immigration laws. Our immigration laws are for our benefit, not the benefit of Latinos with large families under the delusion they are entitled to dictate our laws.
1
Thank you for making this important point. Unfortunately, the actual criminals, regardless of the legal definition, are now part of the White House administration.
28
What this article fails to mention, but which is crucial to understanding where we are in history, is the fact that for hundreds of years in the US, immigration law has been considered civil, administrative law.
If someone had paperwork problems, they either filed more paperwork, or received a Notice to Appear before and immigration judge.
Only since the uninvestigated crimes of 9/11, have immigrants been criminalized, detained in corrupt detention centers which fund GOP campaign contributors.
Overstaying a visa, prior to 9/11 was about as serious as a parking ticket, could be corrected by filing additional paperwork.
But today, all manner of persons with all manner of paperwork issues in their immigration file are detained at a cost of billions of dollars to taxpayers.
The macroeconomic implications of anti-immigrant policies as well are likely to throw the economy into an economic depression.
Already, out west, there are not enough workers to pick the crops and crops are being plowed under.
The GOP led Congress with its cozy relationship with Russia, white nationalists from Russia and neo-Nutzees, is a disgrace to the US and its history.
If someone had paperwork problems, they either filed more paperwork, or received a Notice to Appear before and immigration judge.
Only since the uninvestigated crimes of 9/11, have immigrants been criminalized, detained in corrupt detention centers which fund GOP campaign contributors.
Overstaying a visa, prior to 9/11 was about as serious as a parking ticket, could be corrected by filing additional paperwork.
But today, all manner of persons with all manner of paperwork issues in their immigration file are detained at a cost of billions of dollars to taxpayers.
The macroeconomic implications of anti-immigrant policies as well are likely to throw the economy into an economic depression.
Already, out west, there are not enough workers to pick the crops and crops are being plowed under.
The GOP led Congress with its cozy relationship with Russia, white nationalists from Russia and neo-Nutzees, is a disgrace to the US and its history.
34
Donny Crook thinks that the Senate Rules, etc are arcane because they do not let him act like a CEO of us like a privately held company where nepotism is rampant, everything for the benefit of the CEO and whatever the CEO is the only and final word. I agree with him re the Arcane part. The ELECTORAL COLLEGE process is arcane and needs to be replaced by dirct vote of ALL citizens. And everyone is a citizen of the United States, not at the mercy of the state he/she lives in. That wuld have prevented from this Donney Crook becoming a president and think about having right to determine who becomes citizen or non-citizen. Donney Crook should be sent to an elementary, may be intermediate school to understand the principles of Democracy, read John Locke and Plato and Aristotle and then allow to vote.
5
I know President Trump is not a lawyer (nor am I), so I will help him out. A simple traffic infraction is not a crime. It is a civil matter, unless it exceeds to reckless driving. I know the President is not a detail man.
17
All illegal "immigrants" are deportable -- before they have committed any crime whatsoever. The penalty for illegal entry is deportation. Let's get that clear. The entire premise of this piece is wrong, as aptly pointed out by Louisa, below.
18
Is it? And the penalty for unlawful presence? http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2014/07/is-illegal-immigration-a-crime-...
No .. the point is that the government is claiming that *naturalized US citizens* are deportable for minor offenses (such as speeding) that were not prosecuted, or even detected, and not acknowledged in immigration proceedings. This would probably cover most of the non-US born citizens in the US today.
I'm sure your fellow Californians who own farms growing crops or boarding horses will be thrilled when all their Mexican and other Hispanic workers are gone!
The fact that he was elected president is proof enough that we are not safe.
23
'The word “criminal” has a literal meaning, of course, but it also has a resonant meaning — people who by their nature are insensitive to society’s norms, drawn to violate the law by self-interest or malice.'
Why this could describe the current president.
Why this could describe the current president.
22
A very important aspect of what is happening is the use of name calling. Referring to a group as "snakes", "apes", "rapists", etc. has the purpose of dehumanizing the persons in that group. Likewise, putting derogatory names on an individual such as referring to Mr. Obama as "this Stalin" and worse on Fox News also serves the purpose of dehumanizing.
So what is the point of that? I got roped into a laboratory study by a colleague interested in aggression. One of his models was a resident male mouse intruder model: the resident mouse would attack another male placed in its cage. And another model he used was to place a mouse in a cage with a rat: the rat would do what comes naturally and kill and eat the mouse. This caused me to read the literature on "aggression" and the serotonin nerves that were my interest. At first the literature made no sense. Then I realized that I was looking at intraspecies aggression versus predation. The serotonin system has opposite effects--it checks aggression against peers and promotes predatory behavior. Thus, by dehumanizing someone, the checks on aggression in your brain shifts from intraspecies to predatory. When that happens, anything is possible.
I have watched prosecutors dehumanize a defendant in order to gain a death sentence. The Nazis dehumanized Jews, Roma and other peoples. Sunnis call Shia apostates. The process is repeated again and again in order to unleash the primitive predatory instincts in our brains.
So what is the point of that? I got roped into a laboratory study by a colleague interested in aggression. One of his models was a resident male mouse intruder model: the resident mouse would attack another male placed in its cage. And another model he used was to place a mouse in a cage with a rat: the rat would do what comes naturally and kill and eat the mouse. This caused me to read the literature on "aggression" and the serotonin nerves that were my interest. At first the literature made no sense. Then I realized that I was looking at intraspecies aggression versus predation. The serotonin system has opposite effects--it checks aggression against peers and promotes predatory behavior. Thus, by dehumanizing someone, the checks on aggression in your brain shifts from intraspecies to predatory. When that happens, anything is possible.
I have watched prosecutors dehumanize a defendant in order to gain a death sentence. The Nazis dehumanized Jews, Roma and other peoples. Sunnis call Shia apostates. The process is repeated again and again in order to unleash the primitive predatory instincts in our brains.
9
You mean those processes where everyone who does not agree with liberal open borders policies is immediately called all kinds of names?
1
Though the ostensible reasoning for using the term "Criminal alien" may be to suggest that they are only punishing criminals, in actuality Trump has just replaced "illegal alien" with "criminal alien". Say it often enough and loud enough and the words become linked, synonyms. It conflates an act with the person and declares them 'bad'.
The irony is that we are getting this from Trump who is, all thing considered, a bad person - lies, cheats, reneges on debts - but has no criminal record because he the money to slink away untouched. So, who's the snake?
Maybe all his venom and bombast is about self-loathing. Where's a good pop psychologist when you need one?
The irony is that we are getting this from Trump who is, all thing considered, a bad person - lies, cheats, reneges on debts - but has no criminal record because he the money to slink away untouched. So, who's the snake?
Maybe all his venom and bombast is about self-loathing. Where's a good pop psychologist when you need one?
5
In Trop v. Dulles a plurality of the US Supreme Court said that denaturalization is a cruel and unusual punishment in violation of the 8th Amendment. When someone was brought here as a child and knows no other country, it is no different.
8
Of course exiling someone for something as trivial as a parking violation is grotesque but trump's base is exactly that...grotesque.
They are the exact same people they were in junior high, if they even made it that far.
They are the very definition of Arrested Development.
They are angry, nasty smelly little children.
They are the exact same people they were in junior high, if they even made it that far.
They are the very definition of Arrested Development.
They are angry, nasty smelly little children.
4
Our newly emboldened DOJ is led by Jeff sessions from the Confederate state of Alabama. His predilections are well known. He wants to nullify state laws legalizing marijuana; he will not enforce voter's rights protections; he wants to amp up the war on drugs, in spite of what it has cost us since its inception-- in money, morality, and human life. Democrats need to get out the vote in 2018 and beyond or there will be no limits on what confederates like sessions will enact and enforce.
10
So, should Mike Flynn lose his citizenship? And what about Trump himself, who has acknowledged violence toward women?
8
Well, I support the notion that even if his citizenship can't be revoked (as far as I know, he was born here), Flynn should go to jail for his crimes - a fitting and appropriately ironic result for someone who encouraged the "Lock her up" chant of rabid Trump supporters, despite the fact that no criminal wrongdoing by Hillary was ever found, nor is there any evidence that her so-called "personal" email server was ever hacked (as I understand it, the Russians hacked the Democratic party server, a different server altogether).
As for Trump, the child of an immigrant mother and the husband of an immigrant who worked illegally prior to obtaining a work visa, the more pressing problem is that if he's impeached, imprisoned, or deported, we'd then have Pence as president: a man who identifies as "a Christian, a conservative, and a Republican, in that order", and clearly a man who wants to impose a theocracy on the US.
I'm no Trump fan, but I sometimes wonder whether he or Pence is the more frightening.
As for Melania, I'd say that under this administration's rules there's a clear case for revoking her citizenship unless she admitted her work violation on her citizenship papers. Cruel, but hey...tough luck, right? I'm sure she'll do well back in Slovenia...and by the way, how is it that her parents also seem to be living here?
As for Trump, the child of an immigrant mother and the husband of an immigrant who worked illegally prior to obtaining a work visa, the more pressing problem is that if he's impeached, imprisoned, or deported, we'd then have Pence as president: a man who identifies as "a Christian, a conservative, and a Republican, in that order", and clearly a man who wants to impose a theocracy on the US.
I'm no Trump fan, but I sometimes wonder whether he or Pence is the more frightening.
As for Melania, I'd say that under this administration's rules there's a clear case for revoking her citizenship unless she admitted her work violation on her citizenship papers. Cruel, but hey...tough luck, right? I'm sure she'll do well back in Slovenia...and by the way, how is it that her parents also seem to be living here?
3
These undocumented people pick your fruits and vegetables. Get ready for higher prices on these items.
6
JT - thank you for recognizing what I have been saying for a long time. The illegal immigrants who perform this work and the agricultural industries that are dependent on them have created a false economy of artificially low process.
Get rid of the low-wage workers and replace them with higher-wage workers and what do you have? Increased expenses being passed along to consumers, as is the rule in capitalism. I figure our fruits and vegetables should cost roughly 5-7 times what they do now.
Get rid of the low-wage workers and replace them with higher-wage workers and what do you have? Increased expenses being passed along to consumers, as is the rule in capitalism. I figure our fruits and vegetables should cost roughly 5-7 times what they do now.
3
Illaegal immigrants so a lot more than pick fruit. They are heavily represented in construction trades, buy and own homes and businesses, employ millions of people, including native born Americans. That's just the Hispanic immigrants.
It would be helpful for you and some of those who responded to you to read an article on this subject that appeared on the pages of the NYT a few years ago:
https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/08/17/could-farms-survive-wit...
Doesn't anyone have a problem with the ag sector essentially saying "we must have illegal workers to survive"?
Ag is the gateway drug of illegal "immigration". Farmers employ illegal workers who, over time, fan out to take jobs Americans most certainly will do. They are then backfilled by additional illegal workers. Following the misbegotten Reagan Amnesty of 1986, half the farmworkers bolted the fields. You see they work at jobs "Americans won't do" because they are illegal, not because they are Hispanic. Legalize them and they are gone. The problem has always been and continues to be that working conditions and pay in farm fields is too low to attract and retain a legal workforce.
https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/08/17/could-farms-survive-wit...
Doesn't anyone have a problem with the ag sector essentially saying "we must have illegal workers to survive"?
Ag is the gateway drug of illegal "immigration". Farmers employ illegal workers who, over time, fan out to take jobs Americans most certainly will do. They are then backfilled by additional illegal workers. Following the misbegotten Reagan Amnesty of 1986, half the farmworkers bolted the fields. You see they work at jobs "Americans won't do" because they are illegal, not because they are Hispanic. Legalize them and they are gone. The problem has always been and continues to be that working conditions and pay in farm fields is too low to attract and retain a legal workforce.
3
Conservatives have enjoyed both sides of the illegal immigrant issue for decades. Why are there so many millions of Mexicans in this country illegally? Because it has greatly benefited agribusinesses and construction companies and hundreds of other employers who have paid these workers substandard wages while having the ultimate power to threaten them with arrest and deportation if they displease their bosses in any way. No reasonable path for workers to cross our southern border has stood a chance of being adopted while it has been to the economic advantage of business owners not to have one. Your gardener and the restaurant's dishwasher are here illegally because there is an economic benefit to having them here just the way they are. At the same time it suits their employers to vote for Trump because he's business friendly. Conservatives have never had a problem with hypocrisy.
389
You should take note of which states have made the use of eVerify mandatory. Note also the states that have actively fought making it mandatory. The states requiring it are Republican. The states fighting it are run by Democrats.
http://www.lawlogix.com/e-verify-map/
http://www.lawlogix.com/e-verify-map/
5
And it's to many people's advantage to have low-wage workers. They lower the price of food, nursing care, property maintenance. Our economy runs on people who accept sub-standard working conditions. Why are these jobs good enough for Mexicans and other immigrants, but not good enough for Americans? Racism is woven into the fabric of our economy. Legalize undocumented workers, yes. But don't do it because we need those cheap gardeners and dishwashers. Do it because we don't want cheap labor anymore.
The economic benefit to having illegals here only accrues to a small minority. Meanwhile, the rest of us are forced to pay the real cost of their labor. Should we refuse, we are called xenophobes and bigots.
Congress made illegal entry and working in the United States without authorization felony offenses because illegal immigration undermines the nation’s ability to control its border and regulate immigration. There are huge differences between legal and illegal immigration. Legal immigration produces a highly diverse stream of immigrants who come speaking a multitude of languages from a multitude of countries and cultures. Their tremendous diversity encourages them to assimilate and acculturate into American society rather than coalescing in racial and ethnic enclaves. They also tend to possess the skills and education required to flourish in U.S. society. Illegal immigration produces a non-diverse, low-skilled and poorly educated stream of migrants who lack the skills and education required to assimilate, acculturate and flourish in U.S. society.
36
What about asylum seekers and refugees who were admitted to the US legally and speak only one language, are low-skilled and poorly educated. Wouldn't they also lack the skills and education required to assimilate, acculturate and flourish in U.S. society?
Really? What do you know about those "consulting" companies who market H1b workers who compete for jobs with U.S. graduate students? They can work for less, because their families at home support them financially. Our families cannot continue to support their graduated students indefinitely; those students deserve to be hired before a foreign H1b holder is hired. Don't tell me that Cal Tech, MIT, UC Berkeley et al do not produce highly skilled engineers and software programmers.
Well William, you certainly made some huge leaps. Plus you are not looking at the history of legal immigration in the US. Which included allowing entry to many people of diverse backgrounds with no skills, little education and no desires to assimilate. The vestiges of which are still visible in various neighborhood enclaves in places like say the Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens. Where many a grandma/pa still struggle to speak fluent English, and have never received a formal education...all of whom came from the last great migrations from Europe. But of course they're "white". So they are exempt from scrutiny.
I live "down the block" (several blocks) from an enclave of legal immigrants, from India, some of whom are isolated, and among them are many who will never assimilate, and never get a formal education...as they are the elders, plus wives/mothers, and aunties, who by their culture are not allowed to truly assimilate.
I'm also certain, that there have been hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants, most of them children when brought here, who have assimilated, received an education and are contributing greatly to the country. And many will still do so, contrary to the potential threats to their safety under this Admin. As they truly believe that putting in the hard work, getting an education and being employed is the path to fair and just treatment in the US.
Lets not dissuade them of those beliefs, by seeking revenge on the wrong targets.
I live "down the block" (several blocks) from an enclave of legal immigrants, from India, some of whom are isolated, and among them are many who will never assimilate, and never get a formal education...as they are the elders, plus wives/mothers, and aunties, who by their culture are not allowed to truly assimilate.
I'm also certain, that there have been hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants, most of them children when brought here, who have assimilated, received an education and are contributing greatly to the country. And many will still do so, contrary to the potential threats to their safety under this Admin. As they truly believe that putting in the hard work, getting an education and being employed is the path to fair and just treatment in the US.
Lets not dissuade them of those beliefs, by seeking revenge on the wrong targets.
2
When people want to justify something in their own minds and in public perception, they haul out every argument they can think of to justify it. Some of those arguments are valid and others are not only not valid, they are spurious.
We have a situation with 11 million undocumented people living in the US. They are by definition doing something that is against the law. We ought to be asking whether the law should be changed in some way or whether all of them should be deported.
For a lot of them their roots go deep. They've been here most of their lives. They have family members who are US citizens and who have no desire to disrupt their lives and go to another country. Many make contributions that can be quantified. Other contributions, adding to cultural diversity is an example, that are less easy to assess. Some even think that kind of contribution is a negative.
Some are "bad hombres." They commit serious crimes. Deporting them to countries who are unable to handle the burden is itself problematic and has contributed to the growth of gangs like the MS 13 now in the headlines.
For a long time now, we've created problems for ourselves enforcing drug laws that have unfortunate consequences. Immigration enforcement will be similar if we don't use our intelligence to do what's smart and humane.
We have a situation with 11 million undocumented people living in the US. They are by definition doing something that is against the law. We ought to be asking whether the law should be changed in some way or whether all of them should be deported.
For a lot of them their roots go deep. They've been here most of their lives. They have family members who are US citizens and who have no desire to disrupt their lives and go to another country. Many make contributions that can be quantified. Other contributions, adding to cultural diversity is an example, that are less easy to assess. Some even think that kind of contribution is a negative.
Some are "bad hombres." They commit serious crimes. Deporting them to countries who are unable to handle the burden is itself problematic and has contributed to the growth of gangs like the MS 13 now in the headlines.
For a long time now, we've created problems for ourselves enforcing drug laws that have unfortunate consequences. Immigration enforcement will be similar if we don't use our intelligence to do what's smart and humane.
121
Keep in mind that estimates are half of the illegal immigrants are people who came legally and overstayed their visas.
INS/CBP never have and still do not ever track and confirm that those with temporary, even tourist, visas leave.
Maybe that would be a good place to start and ban importing cheap labor to displace American citizens while they are at it. You do know that it is legal to do that - right?
INS/CBP never have and still do not ever track and confirm that those with temporary, even tourist, visas leave.
Maybe that would be a good place to start and ban importing cheap labor to displace American citizens while they are at it. You do know that it is legal to do that - right?
2
What rot. The only justification I see here is your own. Illegals broke our laws. If they have kids or family members here, that still does not give them a free pass to continue breaking our laws. If their family members do not wish to join them in a new country that's their problem not ours. Allowing millions of Latinos here does not constitute diversity.
We didn't create this problem. They did. They have no cause to tell us how to run our nation or how to respond to their violations of our laws.
We didn't create this problem. They did. They have no cause to tell us how to run our nation or how to respond to their violations of our laws.
1
Illegal immoral immigration by Native American conquering Europeans along with their guns, Bibles and enslaved African property was nature of the birth of the American nation.
What is spurious and hypocritical is the inhumane immoral myth that America is a 'land of the free and home of the brave' worthy of the blessing of any just God.
What goes with humane is empathy and curiosity. Being 'smart' is what brought us to the center of this conundrum crossroad conflict.
What is spurious and hypocritical is the inhumane immoral myth that America is a 'land of the free and home of the brave' worthy of the blessing of any just God.
What goes with humane is empathy and curiosity. Being 'smart' is what brought us to the center of this conundrum crossroad conflict.
1
I am a Democrat and a liberal. So I am angered by liberal story lines that promise to do nothing except cost us more elections.
There is no comparison between Jewish victims of the Holocaust and people here voluntarily and illegally from other countries.
I don't care how many Yale professors tell me they're comparable. all that tells me is that some people are employed beyond their capabilities.
The drumbeat of this and other nonsense is what allowed a carnival huckster like Trump claiming he'd give straight talk to win.
There is no comparison between Jewish victims of the Holocaust and people here voluntarily and illegally from other countries.
I don't care how many Yale professors tell me they're comparable. all that tells me is that some people are employed beyond their capabilities.
The drumbeat of this and other nonsense is what allowed a carnival huckster like Trump claiming he'd give straight talk to win.
34
Why is there no comparison? Seems to me there are quite clearly many points of similarity, which this author has listed here. You offer no reason for your dismissal.
5
So someone already a citizen who lied about speeding should lose their citizenship?
Maybe you would find more apt the comparison between the millions of Jews who would have escaped death had they been accepted in the liberal democracy of America they tried to flee to, and the millions of refugees wishing to flee war, genocide, and famine and being turned away by us today?
My father was a Jewish refugee who got here by the skin of his teeth. My grandparents burnt to ash in Belzec. I find professor Stanley's comparison quite alarming, moving, and appropriate.
My father was a Jewish refugee who got here by the skin of his teeth. My grandparents burnt to ash in Belzec. I find professor Stanley's comparison quite alarming, moving, and appropriate.
7
Undoubtedly Trump would also seek to deport Clinton voters, arguing they also committed a crime.
81
rebuplicans have been arguing for years that anyone who is living and working in the US without a work visa is a criminal by definition because they have broken the law that requires non-citizens to have a work visa. Perhaps some actually think that all infractions are equal or that small infractions inevitably lead to larger ones, but it looks more like fear mongering in order to deport larger numbers of generally hard working and law-abiding non-citizens.
2
He has a good case there.
1
ariel,
Sending Mexicans home to Mexico is not a crime.
Sending Mexicans home to Mexico is not a crime.
Jealousy, envy, and the tendency to blame others for our shortcomings are, unfortunately, part of human nature and of the social/political landscape. This is not going to change. One of the roles of government is to protect us from our and our neighbors' baser instincts. This constitutional obligation has had some notable failures e.g. slavery, Jim Crow, and the mass incarceration of Japanese-Americans. What we presently are seeing is our Federal government not only failing to protect us from mob behavior but actually, pitchfork in hand, leading the mob. Our sacred American principles and institutions are being desecrated and the desecrators are being praised and pandered to by the president of our country.
121
It is for each individual human being to change this within themselves, and to transcend what you seem to consider as a societal norm of "blaming others". Overcoming this tendency is not by any means the highest level of one's ethical development.
Sory, but I completely reject the concept that our government should protect us from ourselves, and the "baser instincts" of others. As defined in the constitution, the government has a role in protecting individual liberties, and thus can control the behavior of others--but only as that behavior impacts my freedoms, not my feelings.
Communities have and do construct mores that include prohibitions on baser behavior (and even thoughts), and historically have imposed exile on those suspected of non-compliance. But again, the US legal and historical legacy puts individual beliefs and preferences above the group (or mob). And while the system has failed in the past, including the notable examples you list, we could have avoided those by holding true to individual liberties--for all, and not appealing to slippery concepts of noble thinking.
Communities have and do construct mores that include prohibitions on baser behavior (and even thoughts), and historically have imposed exile on those suspected of non-compliance. But again, the US legal and historical legacy puts individual beliefs and preferences above the group (or mob). And while the system has failed in the past, including the notable examples you list, we could have avoided those by holding true to individual liberties--for all, and not appealing to slippery concepts of noble thinking.
It doesn't end with immigrants. Atty Gen. Sessions wants to resume the War on Drugs to the full extent of the law. The War on Drugs from its inception has been used by law enforcement and prosecutors to selectively target, criminalize, and disenfranchise African American individuals and communities. It is the "New Jim Crow", the title of Michelle Alexander's excellent book on the subject. Eventually, no one will be safe.
281
"...to the full extent of the law."
Yep. Exactly.
Yep. Exactly.
2
No one is safe already.
More and more we live in local police states where high schools look like prisons and cops are more or less free to do as they wish to anyone.
And Trump voters encourage the madness.
More and more we live in local police states where high schools look like prisons and cops are more or less free to do as they wish to anyone.
And Trump voters encourage the madness.
7
Sessions believes that the separation of Church and State is illegal.
Part of the problem with this sort of thing is that it begets ideas that would otherwise be unthinkable; after a time these become acceptable. The interment camps for the Japanese during WWII are an example.
Now, here in San Diego there is a proposal to round up the homeless and send them to a camp out in the desert. The proposal wants to address the filth, drug use, crime and degradation associated with homeless encampments in and around the city. Sending them to the desert will provide them with plenty of sunshine, fresh air (as if people living outside need more of this), real beds and sanitary facilities. Happy, Happy, Joy, Joy!
In our changed political environment, it has apparently become acceptable to suggest depriving people of their rights and forcibly removing them to an encampment because they are inconvenient. As the author points out, this is the real danger of what is happening, it starts with one group of undesirables and then move on to anyone who get in the way of the Powers That Be. I believe that is the definition of a Police State.
Now, here in San Diego there is a proposal to round up the homeless and send them to a camp out in the desert. The proposal wants to address the filth, drug use, crime and degradation associated with homeless encampments in and around the city. Sending them to the desert will provide them with plenty of sunshine, fresh air (as if people living outside need more of this), real beds and sanitary facilities. Happy, Happy, Joy, Joy!
In our changed political environment, it has apparently become acceptable to suggest depriving people of their rights and forcibly removing them to an encampment because they are inconvenient. As the author points out, this is the real danger of what is happening, it starts with one group of undesirables and then move on to anyone who get in the way of the Powers That Be. I believe that is the definition of a Police State.
234
Wow. And San Diego is in liberal California. Who would be administering this? Californians?
It is true that a traffic fine is not really a crime. But ahem, being illegally in the country IS a crime in Mexico (it is a felony) and it is also a crime here.
There is something disturbing and amusing about the fact that we put Kim Davis in prison for failure to sign a marriage license and create sanctuary cities, protected by our courts no less, for people who are violating immigration laws. How would you like it if there were sanctuary cities for people who refuse to serve to gays?
And let us face it, being deported and being put in a gas chamber are not the same thing, not by a long shot.
All of my doctoral students from abroad (and no doubt yours Jason) are in danger of being deported once they submit their dissertation. That is the way the law works. And they will NOT be going into gas chambers!
The law is the law and reflects common consensus whereby we all live in the same country and obey the same laws. Once you decide that "those whom the liberals like" need not obey the law, you are opening a Pandora's box. Be careful what comes out of that box.
There is something disturbing and amusing about the fact that we put Kim Davis in prison for failure to sign a marriage license and create sanctuary cities, protected by our courts no less, for people who are violating immigration laws. How would you like it if there were sanctuary cities for people who refuse to serve to gays?
And let us face it, being deported and being put in a gas chamber are not the same thing, not by a long shot.
All of my doctoral students from abroad (and no doubt yours Jason) are in danger of being deported once they submit their dissertation. That is the way the law works. And they will NOT be going into gas chambers!
The law is the law and reflects common consensus whereby we all live in the same country and obey the same laws. Once you decide that "those whom the liberals like" need not obey the law, you are opening a Pandora's box. Be careful what comes out of that box.
29
The article is not simply about deportation... it's about the slippery slope of revoking citizenship for trivial mishaps. That's unprecedented and also ominous of more violations of constitutional rights..
4
The number of aliens crossing our southern border illegally is already far fewer than in any year of Obama's rule. He led from behind, from a position of weakness. One of the results was the death of Kathlyn Stynle, shot as she and her father were walking, buy an alien who had already been convicted of two felonies, had been deported five time for illegal entry, and had come in again.
Without passing any new laws yet, Trump's mere presence as president seems to be working.
I guess that Marine Corps 2nd Lieutenant training was right. Being a leader means leading. You lead from the front. You can't push a string.
Without passing any new laws yet, Trump's mere presence as president seems to be working.
I guess that Marine Corps 2nd Lieutenant training was right. Being a leader means leading. You lead from the front. You can't push a string.
7
You provide one example of an American killed by an alien. Every day we read about Americans, many of them children, shot by American citizens who should not have access to the firearms they misuse. Trump ran on a platform that was racist, misogynist, xenophobic, and authoritarianism. As president, he embraces these positions. I cannot call anything he does in any of his "white houses" leading. Let's hope he's a despicable aberration in the history of the American presidency.
1
What is also fewer is the really smart, innovative, foreigners who will choose not to come to this country (with a visa) for fear of being persecuted for looking different. The anti-immigrant sentiment will not only stop a few bad apples, but mostly will stop many great apples from entering this country and adding to our economy. Our economy relies on (far smarter than us) foreigners taking a risk here and creating business or providing their intelligence to US companies.
Also, far more violent crimes are done by US-born citizens, how is putting attention only to violent immigrants going to stop mass-shootings by whites?
Also, far more violent crimes are done by US-born citizens, how is putting attention only to violent immigrants going to stop mass-shootings by whites?
2
Be careful of citing military training.
Under it, Trump would be expelled from the military for being an undependable consummate liar who would put soldiers lives in danger.
I wouldn't follow that man into a bathroom.
Under it, Trump would be expelled from the military for being an undependable consummate liar who would put soldiers lives in danger.
I wouldn't follow that man into a bathroom.
9
De minimis non curat lex. Except when it is in the the interest of ideologues and authoritarians to make it so. It's an accepted rule of general legal practice that laws and regulations left long in abeyance, which are revived to target particular persons who have neglected them just as everyoine else has (jaywalking, etc.), is an opening to tyranny.
38
Your comment is the perfect answer to commenter James Bowen above you. The government--dem and GOP-- aided and abetted by big business, allowed illegal immigration to be come normal-- the statutes against it were "left long in abeyance." That is why we cannot deport 11 million people en masse, just because a new regime has criminalized what was so recently acceptable. This is why people like me-- a california liberal who is in favor of strong borders-- finds all this hate speech and activity so distasteful. Thanks for bringing clarity.
4
There is a major logical flaw in this article. All illegal aliens are in fact in violation of the law by their very presence. By definition, this is not the country of their roots. It is also important to consider why we have these laws and limits to restrict immigration. We are a finite country that does not have unlimited resources, and our government has a constitutional duty to protect and prioritize the citizenry. In other words, we can't just let in everybody who wants to come here, not without severely degrading the quality of life of those who are native citizens anyway. If we don't deport people who come here without any right or authorization to do so, we have no ways or means to protect the livelihoods of those who do have roots here.
34
"Native citizens" James? You must be joking, right? Unless you came across the Bering Straight or across the Rio Grande you aren't a native citizen. I believe in responsible immigration too, but remember that immigration has made us the country we are.
4
Surely you speak righteously about the post contact degradation of the quality of life of the true "native citizens". The rest of us as you know came from immigrants!!
Mr. Bowen-
When did your people arrive in the usa? once arrived, legally or not, did they commit any minor offenses, or more heinous crimes? Did the country that accepted them benefit from their immigration, or was it harmed by it? The problems in this country do NOT stem from difficulties with immigrants any more than the German problems were due to the Jews that lived there. The basis of this argument is that if we are going to do something to "criminal immigrants"we need to have a discussion on what those words mean.
When did your people arrive in the usa? once arrived, legally or not, did they commit any minor offenses, or more heinous crimes? Did the country that accepted them benefit from their immigration, or was it harmed by it? The problems in this country do NOT stem from difficulties with immigrants any more than the German problems were due to the Jews that lived there. The basis of this argument is that if we are going to do something to "criminal immigrants"we need to have a discussion on what those words mean.
2
Just don't miss an important part of all this, that America has a very valid right to have strong borders, and to deport those who violate her immigration laws. I write that as a very liberal American. Comprehensive immigration reform will include just such laws.
Our immigration people do a tough job. It is a needed job, and it was done under Obama as it is under Trump. Sure, Trump cannot resist giving blasts on his dog whistles to keep some of his super-racist followers contributing, but don't blame the very hard working members of America's immigration services.
Hugh Massengill, Eugene Oregon
Our immigration people do a tough job. It is a needed job, and it was done under Obama as it is under Trump. Sure, Trump cannot resist giving blasts on his dog whistles to keep some of his super-racist followers contributing, but don't blame the very hard working members of America's immigration services.
Hugh Massengill, Eugene Oregon
14
There is a much cheaper, easier, and more effective way to address illegal immigration:
- Make e-Verify mandatory
- Prosecute existing federal law against employers who hire illegal immigrants.
No wall needed. And then the "hard working members" of ICE can focus on the handful of people who cross the border illegally to commit crimes, rather than to earn a living.
- Make e-Verify mandatory
- Prosecute existing federal law against employers who hire illegal immigrants.
No wall needed. And then the "hard working members" of ICE can focus on the handful of people who cross the border illegally to commit crimes, rather than to earn a living.
2
Chief Justice John Roberts "reductio ad absurdum", hypothetical about speeding, during oral arguments, was an insult to the gravity of the Maslenjak case. Did Jason Stanley even bother to read the Supreme Court transcript of Maslenjak v.United States? The Maslenjak case was not about "a trivial misstatement during an immigration proceeding". In order obtain American citizenship, Ms. Maslenjak lied about about her husband's role as a member of the unit that participated in the 1990's Serbian genocide against Muslims. She stated under oath that he was not a member of the Serbian military,when in fact he was a member of its most notorious unit. Since she would have been denied citizenship had she answered truthfully, her American citizenship was revoked. Does Jason Stanley really believe that lying about Ms. Maslenjak's husband's role in ethnic genocide is a "trivial misstatement", or didn't he exercise "due diligence" in examining the origin of John Roberts hypothetical?
7
No, but the government was not trying to make the case that this was an egregious violation: it was trying to make the absurd case that any issue whatsoever with one's naturalization paperwork could be used to lead to loss of citizenship.
In other words: it's the overreaching nature of the argument that was made that, appropriately, triggered Justice Roberts' response. Had the government made an argument around the seriousness of the issues hidden, the discussion would have gone in a completely different direction.
In other words: it's the overreaching nature of the argument that was made that, appropriately, triggered Justice Roberts' response. Had the government made an argument around the seriousness of the issues hidden, the discussion would have gone in a completely different direction.
5
The prosecutor could have made his case around the egregiousness of the crime, but chose instead to state that *any* crime is sufficient to warrant deportation. That is what Jason Stanley has written about.
1
"It is worth noting that this tactic of dehumanization — referring to humans as animals — has historically been used to foment hatred and violence against chosen groups"
It may also be worth noting that these tactics have probably been recommended to Trump by Putin himself through Paul Manafort, or one of the other Putin cronies in Trumps coven of advisers.
It IS a tactic, NOT an accident!
SAD
It may also be worth noting that these tactics have probably been recommended to Trump by Putin himself through Paul Manafort, or one of the other Putin cronies in Trumps coven of advisers.
It IS a tactic, NOT an accident!
SAD
25
To live and work here without authorization means tax evasion and likely ID fraud; both felonies for which citizens are prosecuted.
Why should illegal aliens not face prosecution for violating the same laws? Why would lawless opportunism ever be considered acceptable let alone 'inclusive'?
Enforcement of residency laws, work laws, tax laws put in place to protect and promote the general welfare of citizens is not Nazism and the parallel is so disingenuous, the backlash will continue to be outsized.
Why should illegal aliens not face prosecution for violating the same laws? Why would lawless opportunism ever be considered acceptable let alone 'inclusive'?
Enforcement of residency laws, work laws, tax laws put in place to protect and promote the general welfare of citizens is not Nazism and the parallel is so disingenuous, the backlash will continue to be outsized.
19
The vast majority of undocumented workers have taxes withheld by their employers leading to billions in unclaimed refunds and benefits. They are not evading taxes.
1
actually illegal immigrants pay taxes, and usually receive few benefits from them.And actually, illegal immigrants are less likely to commit violent crimes than people who live here. When the ICE starts rounding up illegals from canada, europe, etc.. in other words white people, you will have a better argument.
Margaret,
The vast majority of illegals qualify for the EITC and are not a net economic benefit for most of us. Those who are working are violating additional laws and should be heavily fined and prosecuted along with their employers.
The vast majority of illegals qualify for the EITC and are not a net economic benefit for most of us. Those who are working are violating additional laws and should be heavily fined and prosecuted along with their employers.
2
Our country has a long history of this sort of discrimination, even without the optics of the Holocaust: http://digitalscholarship.tsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1043&c... AND http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/americas-true-history-of-religious... .
Our laws, much more tolerant now but still subject to malevolent manipulation, have long been a tool in this process. They provide a framework of rules, but any attorney knows justice is not necessarily an intended outcome. Just does not equate with legal. The definition of justice is intensely problematic: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/justice-virtue/ . There is so much to unpack on this subject.
To the point of the use of incarceration as a tool of repression--as a tool of economic growth (prisons as profit centers)--we have all sorts of problems. Our current president and his attorney general show signs of moving downhill on a dark road.
Our laws, much more tolerant now but still subject to malevolent manipulation, have long been a tool in this process. They provide a framework of rules, but any attorney knows justice is not necessarily an intended outcome. Just does not equate with legal. The definition of justice is intensely problematic: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/justice-virtue/ . There is so much to unpack on this subject.
To the point of the use of incarceration as a tool of repression--as a tool of economic growth (prisons as profit centers)--we have all sorts of problems. Our current president and his attorney general show signs of moving downhill on a dark road.
21
There's criminals sitting in the White House. When will they be held accountable?
By the Justice Department's definition in Maslenjak v. US, we could declare Donald Trump a criminal and deport him.
What are we waiting for?
What are we waiting for?
55
There is a difference between legal immigrants and illegal immigrants. Any crime, normally a felony with a legal victim (citizen or legal resident), would not have been committed if the illegal alien was not in the United States.
Most violent criminals are not rehabilitated and are recidivists. Since we already have enough native born criminals, removing the immigrant criminals who have completed their prison sentences makes sense. It is an effective way to protect US Citizens, at least in part, from these criminals.
Most violent criminals are not rehabilitated and are recidivists. Since we already have enough native born criminals, removing the immigrant criminals who have completed their prison sentences makes sense. It is an effective way to protect US Citizens, at least in part, from these criminals.
Trump has been a criminal his whole adult life, stealing from people, not paying his fair share of taxes, housing discrimination, adultery, sexual abuses, etc. Can we deport him somewhere? Please!
83
Trump used Poles to build his Tower; when they demanded to paid what their contracts stated, his response was "sue me". They had to accept what he offered. Now, he has imported poor Romanians to work at Mar a Lago; he will pay them little, or nothing. If they demand to be paid, his response will be "sue me". He refused to hire any Mexicans who would have sued him for unpaid wages. His bogus Trump U degrees cost $35,000; he has now settled a class action suit for $3500 each. He is a grifter; he is a tax cheat; he is an adulterer and an exploiter. He is now the "leader of the free world" due to an Electoral College win in gerrymandered State voting districts. He lost the popular vote.
Based on family origin that would be to Germany or Scotland and I don't think they want him there! How about Paraguay with all the prior nazi sympathizers?
What country would take him?
Every nation has the right to decide who can come in and who cannot. Without that right, nationhood becomes meaningless. If someone comes in without permission, that is a violation of that nation's rights and laws and makes that person illegal. Plain and simple. It is the Left's inability to acknowledge this simple truth that makes people like myself upset.
15
Are you seriously classifying Justice Roberts as "left wing?"
4
What you have said is probably true. But the USA has never abided by that right.
Consider the occupation of the Mexican state of what became known as Texas - when the settlers decided they would not abide by the laws of Mexico, they declared themselves as independent and were subsequently annexed by the USA.
Or consider the spurious reasons for the USA invasion of Mexico and the eventual land grab of three quarters of Mexico. We now declare Mexicans crossing our southern borders as criminals.
Consider the occupation of the Mexican state of what became known as Texas - when the settlers decided they would not abide by the laws of Mexico, they declared themselves as independent and were subsequently annexed by the USA.
Or consider the spurious reasons for the USA invasion of Mexico and the eventual land grab of three quarters of Mexico. We now declare Mexicans crossing our southern borders as criminals.
1
"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."
-- Martin Niemoller
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."
-- Martin Niemoller
87
The constant assertion that enforcing our immigration laws makes us Nazis is why it is impossible to take liberals seriously on this issue. Sending Mexicans home does not make us modern day Hitlers.
3
The Trump administration's war on immigrants is immoral, un-American and shameful.
20
Illegal "immigrants" are not immigrants any more than a burglar is a house guest.
6
Reductio ad Hitlerum is usually the last resort of reddit arguments.
Let's compare and contrast - economic refugees from central america cross many "safe" countries before illegally entering the USA. So - are they seeking economic opportunities or safety? If they are deported - are they sent to a concentration camp and almost certain death or a safe country whose sole problem is that it isn't the USA.
Criminals need not have permanent traits of criminality - that is why we allow folks to serve their sentence and re-enter society - nor do you need to commit multiple variations of the same crime to be convicted of a criminal act. I guess if you are a Sophist at heart, then you might attach some logic to that argument.
Finally - just in passing what is the difference between injustice and "gross" injustice - other than hyperbole.
Let's compare and contrast - economic refugees from central america cross many "safe" countries before illegally entering the USA. So - are they seeking economic opportunities or safety? If they are deported - are they sent to a concentration camp and almost certain death or a safe country whose sole problem is that it isn't the USA.
Criminals need not have permanent traits of criminality - that is why we allow folks to serve their sentence and re-enter society - nor do you need to commit multiple variations of the same crime to be convicted of a criminal act. I guess if you are a Sophist at heart, then you might attach some logic to that argument.
Finally - just in passing what is the difference between injustice and "gross" injustice - other than hyperbole.
3
Criminals are often in the best of human company: Rosa Parks is a famous American criminal, and of course Socrates was the great criminal of democratic Athens because he did all those things that Trump demonizes as "fake news." Sadly, it is often the law abiding and law enforcing who are the most morally repugnant, as many more examples than the Nazis attest throughout history. Which direction is Trump and his vision of America leaning to: the healthily criminal ways of Parks and Socrates, or the rule-of-law ways of 1930 and 40s Germany and too many modern states, from Thailand to Turkey to the Philippines?
32
Holy Cow! According to the resonant meaning the President is, himself, a criminal. Who would have guessed? No wonder he frightens so many people. Its not a border wall, but the walls of a jail cell we need. A lot cheaper too.
8
As odious as 45 is, he simply said out loud what Republicans have been dog whistling since the Southern Strategy.
The Republicans' problem was how in a democracy you get people to vote for politicians who want to help the rich get richer at the expense of everyone else. Solution: lie and fear-monger.
The mainstream Republicans had some limits for the sake of decency. 45 has no decency. His supporters don't care. They had to live with a black President for 8 years and they got their racist revenge.
The Republicans' problem was how in a democracy you get people to vote for politicians who want to help the rich get richer at the expense of everyone else. Solution: lie and fear-monger.
The mainstream Republicans had some limits for the sake of decency. 45 has no decency. His supporters don't care. They had to live with a black President for 8 years and they got their racist revenge.
14
Use of the term "criminal" to mean someone of less moral worth than ordinary citizens is a false distinction. Kind or cruel is more important. A person may lie repeatedly, touch genitals without consent, only rent property to white people or rouse crowds to anger and fear without any criminal record.
I have a careless driving conviction, more serious than speeding. Someone could describe me, making no false statements though I hope giving a false impression, making me sound thoroughly reprehensible. I like to think I am one of the good people, but really no-one is safe from being monstered like that.
I have a careless driving conviction, more serious than speeding. Someone could describe me, making no false statements though I hope giving a false impression, making me sound thoroughly reprehensible. I like to think I am one of the good people, but really no-one is safe from being monstered like that.
11
We should remember that when the president's grandfather changed his mind about living in America, and tried to return to Germany, they would not have him because of his criminal record there as a draft dodger -- something the Germans took more seriously than America did when his grandson also dodged the draft.
118
So telling that not once does Mr. Stanley ever mention the centuries long "dehumanization" and "criminalization" of African Americans, who were here before and AT the founding of the United States.
The first person to die in the Boston Massacre, on behalf of American "freedom" from Great Britain, was a black/mixed race man, Crispus Attucks, let us not forget, yet again and again, up through our present day, African Americans have experienced and endured relentless narratives, policies, and practices of dehumanization, denial of citizenship, exclusion, oppression, criminalization, and outright state-sanctioned murder.
Why does Professor Stanley never once cite any of this? WHY? Does he not care if the dehumanized person's skin is brown or black? Remember, Hitler admitted taking tips from the US brutal policies of racial segregation, and forced dispossession of Native Americans!
The first person to die in the Boston Massacre, on behalf of American "freedom" from Great Britain, was a black/mixed race man, Crispus Attucks, let us not forget, yet again and again, up through our present day, African Americans have experienced and endured relentless narratives, policies, and practices of dehumanization, denial of citizenship, exclusion, oppression, criminalization, and outright state-sanctioned murder.
Why does Professor Stanley never once cite any of this? WHY? Does he not care if the dehumanized person's skin is brown or black? Remember, Hitler admitted taking tips from the US brutal policies of racial segregation, and forced dispossession of Native Americans!
13
ICE doesn’t arrest anyone for petty crimes such as traffic violations or for more serious crimes such as selling narcotics, robbery, assault, rape or murder. It only arrests people for violations of immigration and customs law. One-hundred percent of the 21,263 unauthorized immigrants ICE arrested between January and March were arrested for violating immigration laws, not for other crimes. ICE has no jurisdiction over other types of crime.
13
Does cheating on ones taxes constitute criminality? If so Mr Trump as well as the majority of the banking community should be deported.
Maybe the President is on the right track, we just haven't applied this harsh law across all economic lines yet...
Maybe the President is on the right track, we just haven't applied this harsh law across all economic lines yet...
54
These articles are frightening...I took a course in college 40 years on totalitarianism and Trump is mirroring all the characteristics dictators employ to gain power and maintain power. I think we have the institutional tools in place to withstand Trump's assault on democracy, but, along with those tools, we will need some courageous politicians from both parties, to make sure those tools are not locked up in a governmental tool box.
114
Principled courage from this majority Republican congress? From the beneficiaries of Fox News, fossil fuel dollars and gerrymandering? Doubtful.
1
Amen and Amen to what you say, ACJ!
And there are other layers to this onion. For instance the break-up of families, children who can stay while their parents are (subject to even if not) removed. And the fact that a mere accusation can qualify as reason for removal.
20
Having a family is not a get out of jail free card.
3
This is indeed eerily familiar to the dialog from the Trumpanzees - that a crime is anything they decide is a crime, so as to justify inhuman and inhumane behaviour towards those they would drive out.
50
I read a report that the current Mrs. Trump had been in the US for several years before she was allowed to work. I read in the same report that a modeling agency had made a payment of about $20,000 to her during that time. Lets let the Trumps live by their rules, she goes home for being an immigrant that breaks the law and looses her rights to due process as a citizen for failing to disclose her unauthorized work on her citizenship application
436
It appears that Melania Trump may have signed contracts with U.S. modeling agencies before receiving her green card, but it's unclear whether she worked or received payments before receiving her green card.
3
When Trump whispers something into Melania's ear and her face freezes, my guess is he is threatening her with deportation.
Melania Trump is years past the usual expiration date for Donald's women, and he doesn't seem to want her around.
You can bet that he wouldn't be above having her thrown out of the country if it suited him.
You can bet that he wouldn't be above having her thrown out of the country if it suited him.
Demonization of "the other" is the first step towards totalitarianism. What Steve Bannon knows from history, Donald Trump knows instinctively: Fear and hatred are powerful unifying forces. Nothing brings a people together like a common enemy. In the face of this enemy and in a time of "war" they are willing to set aside their moral principles, set aside their civil rights and do whatever they consider necessary to protect themselves.
I'm not convinced that Trump has a master plan, I sense he is just bumbling along, but there are others in the administration who are willing to whip up fear and hatred in hopes of undermining our democracy and pursuing a far right wing agenda. Complacency is not an option.
I'm not convinced that Trump has a master plan, I sense he is just bumbling along, but there are others in the administration who are willing to whip up fear and hatred in hopes of undermining our democracy and pursuing a far right wing agenda. Complacency is not an option.
41
Criminal in meaning begs the question as to whose laws are broken. It need not be limited to legal statutes. The ideals of American, its foundation and its reason for being, these are governing principles whose violation is criminal in the sense that they ignore the Constitution that office holders swear to uphold. Those who bandy words should take care lest they be applied in return.
The greatest danger that President Trump poses is his authoritarian tendencies. His sympathy towards authoritarianism is often made clear by his support for other heads of states with similar dangerous records. While his success is limited by incompetency and laziness, one must be vigilant.
28
From a pure examination of both sides of the issues of those here to work without legal status why is this administration not punishing those who hire them? Isn't it likely that even Mr Trump has done so even if he has kept the 'crime' at arms length behind a wall of contracts? Does he forget his family immigrants status or that of his current wife?
Does the civil rights violation of his father and his own in housing mean he should be deported?
Hypocrisy is a sad thing in anyone but in a president it is despicable.
Does the civil rights violation of his father and his own in housing mean he should be deported?
Hypocrisy is a sad thing in anyone but in a president it is despicable.
50
Over the past couple of years, most thinking people, have learned how hard it is to honestly present facts to and use logic with peole that simply don't want to or aren't capable of understanding them. So many Americans are simply not able to engage their own intellect to determine who, what, or why about their own safety, situation, or status. The overwhelming majority of undocumented people in this country are in search of a better life and are willing to do just about anything to achieve that. They work the jobs (provided by the capitalists) that the "hardworking Americans" don't want to do. The notion that deporting people because of their legal status is going to change anything in the life of most Americans is foolish at best and horribly ignorant at worst.
25
“the government may revoke the citizenship of Americans who made even trivial misstatements in their naturalization proceedings,” including not disclosing a criminal offense of any kind, even if there was no arrest. To test the severity of that position, Chief Justice John G. Roberts, Jr., confessed to a crime — driving 60 miles an hour in a 55-mile-an-hour zone many years ago without being caught. He then asked if a person who had not disclosed such an incident in his citizenship application could have his citizenship revoked. The lawyer answered, yes"
As Justice Roberts rightfully concluded no one would be safe from this law. The drafters of these laws must be very untouchable and arrogant to feel so safe that this law or the next similar one they concoct will not be used against them at some point when the wheel turns and their position, or that of their loved ones, in society changes - as it will. Surely self preservation if not a regard for fellow human beings is enough to give these people pause for thought? I guess they are just following someones orders - an excuse we've heard before. I wonder where Gorsuch stands on this? Hopefully with Justice Roberts, but he came off as a bit too detached from humanity my liking so I have doubts.
As Justice Roberts rightfully concluded no one would be safe from this law. The drafters of these laws must be very untouchable and arrogant to feel so safe that this law or the next similar one they concoct will not be used against them at some point when the wheel turns and their position, or that of their loved ones, in society changes - as it will. Surely self preservation if not a regard for fellow human beings is enough to give these people pause for thought? I guess they are just following someones orders - an excuse we've heard before. I wonder where Gorsuch stands on this? Hopefully with Justice Roberts, but he came off as a bit too detached from humanity my liking so I have doubts.
12
"Demeaning the priceless value of citizenship?" Justice Kennedy speaks as if we live in a time when everything is not a commodity, to be bargained away, devalued, or ignored as fake news. This Administration was erected on a platform of devaluing the citizenship of Barack Obama. Trump demeans every organ and convention of government, from checks and balances, to an independent judiciary, to a free press, on a daily basis. The value of American citizenship indeed has a price these days, and it is falling rapidly. Without the devalued conventions and traditions Trump demeans and discards, American citizenship will be only as valuable as what remains of our Constitution, unread and disrespected by our preening, posturing President.
29
The process of a political order (a society in total or a particular aspect of it, a political party within) stoking fear of immigration, or expelling illegal aliens or even revoking citizenship by using the term "criminal" to describe such people?
Obviously if a society has this problem it can be looked at in two primary ways: We can view the elements in society who are using the term "criminal" in such an irresponsible and disproportionate sense as extremists within society and they should be discouraged from using such strong language to describe what is essentially not such a serious problem to society to go to such extremes, or the society by being lax and having allowed itself to take in so many disparate elements (immigrants) that it is losing cohesion has found itself in the situation of necessarily calling the immigrants criminals to salve its conscience, because after all, can a society which has been so lax as to allow itself to be overrun simply admit it made a mistake and must now expel people?
In short, if a society finds itself using the term criminal more and more usually and loosely and strongly and directed especially at immigrants in society, it is not such a simple matter as just blaming right wing extremists in society. We have also to ask if the left wing, which has allowed such immigration, has got itself into such a bind by its laxity that it has caused reaction which can be expressed only by the term "criminal"...Plenty of blame to go around...
Obviously if a society has this problem it can be looked at in two primary ways: We can view the elements in society who are using the term "criminal" in such an irresponsible and disproportionate sense as extremists within society and they should be discouraged from using such strong language to describe what is essentially not such a serious problem to society to go to such extremes, or the society by being lax and having allowed itself to take in so many disparate elements (immigrants) that it is losing cohesion has found itself in the situation of necessarily calling the immigrants criminals to salve its conscience, because after all, can a society which has been so lax as to allow itself to be overrun simply admit it made a mistake and must now expel people?
In short, if a society finds itself using the term criminal more and more usually and loosely and strongly and directed especially at immigrants in society, it is not such a simple matter as just blaming right wing extremists in society. We have also to ask if the left wing, which has allowed such immigration, has got itself into such a bind by its laxity that it has caused reaction which can be expressed only by the term "criminal"...Plenty of blame to go around...
1
Sending Mexicans home to Mexico is not a criminal act.
2
Trump is not a real president just name only because he dislikes the document he has sworn to uphold. The constitution of the United States. How very scary for all Americans not just immigrants.
24
The US Constitution does not say "no borders" or "all illegal aliens who manage to get here, have a right to stay and steal a job from a US citizen".
You may want such a Constitution. I know your dear Empress Hillary wanted to redo the US Constitution, to be more like the South African Constitution.
But don't expect REAL Americans to take that lying down.
You may want such a Constitution. I know your dear Empress Hillary wanted to redo the US Constitution, to be more like the South African Constitution.
But don't expect REAL Americans to take that lying down.
What about civil law? All those bankruptcies. We have "someone who violates a law" repeatedly in office. If only we could expel Trump based on removal of his citizenship. Bad precedent but fair is fair. Perhaps the president of Mexico will take him in.
14
Bankruptcies are not violations of the law; They are uses of the law to avoid
paying debts.
Getting things of value from foreign entities when you are president, that is against the law.
But since Trump is not an illegal alien, he gets a free pass.
paying debts.
Getting things of value from foreign entities when you are president, that is against the law.
But since Trump is not an illegal alien, he gets a free pass.
5
We are all "criminals". Trump is really saying, if you were not born in the US you are not welcome here. Which is the message that most immigrants, naturalized citizens or not, are getting. The consequences for American society will be slow, but immense.
10
We the people... are all in jeopardy when a simple signature by a President can classify anyone as a criminal. We better pray our Supreme Court holds up better than the high courts in Turkey where they just locked up 40,000 newly identified "criminals".
The biggest criminals have been in congress for decades... Thank goodness for term limits on the presidency.
Congress will do more with a limit to their time in office. Two terms for the Senators and four terms for Reps.
The biggest criminals have been in congress for decades... Thank goodness for term limits on the presidency.
Congress will do more with a limit to their time in office. Two terms for the Senators and four terms for Reps.
9
I agree with the premise of the article, but I think that politicians are not the only group to blame. Sure, politicians take advantage anti-immigrant sentiments for political gain, but the real problem is that many normal people have anti-immigrant sentiments to begin with. While there is the occasional horror story about how tough it can be to get here and stay here, people do not know a lot about the normal day to day lives of immigrants. Perhaps if more people understood that immigrants are like the rest of us we would have a less anti-immigrant voting population in the first place. Politicians would need to find another false issue to pump...
8
Great essay. The parallels drawn are accurate. Those in the US who seek the expulsion of more than 11 million immigrants do so mostly out of fear of being displaced in the workforce, rather than being assaulted on the streets. As the essay points out, being evicted from one's home -- even if it's voluntary -- is not easy. The men and women who left their homes for a strange land in the hope of a better life, as anyone with exposure to these people can see, are among the hardest working and strong-willed people on the planet. Most of the folks who are in favor of their expulsion, I would argue, recognize, at least subconsciously, that they lack the discipline and fortitude to compete with them for a place in the economy. Trump's rhetoric is a lifeline to the millions who believe that being born American or being white automatically qualifies them to be handed good-paying jobs that require no skills and a modest work ethic, at best.
77
The word "criminal" does have a literal meaning, as Jason Stanley points out, but it is not a very precise one. A criminal is someone who commits a crime, but not every violation of the law counts as a crime. Breaches of contract and torts are violations of the law, but they are not usually considered as crimes.
What counts as a crime in a certain jurisdiction, at least in the technical sense, depends on the criminal code for that jurisdiction. In Canada, e.g., speeding is not a crime, it is provincial motor vehicle act offense. The state (i.e., the province) can punish those who violate such laws, but they do not count as crimes. E.g., mens rea is not relevant for conviction of a speeding offence. And the punishments are limited, usually consisting in fines or suspension of the right to drive. Otoh, impaired driving, i.e., operating or having care or control of a motor vehicle while impaired by alcohol or a drug, is a criminal offense and can result in a lengthy prison term.
One of the difficulties in the US is that there is a confusing melange of federal and state criminal law. In Canada, by contrast, the criminal code falls exclusively under the jurisdiction of the federal government; the provinces do not have separate criminal codes.
What counts as a crime in a certain jurisdiction, at least in the technical sense, depends on the criminal code for that jurisdiction. In Canada, e.g., speeding is not a crime, it is provincial motor vehicle act offense. The state (i.e., the province) can punish those who violate such laws, but they do not count as crimes. E.g., mens rea is not relevant for conviction of a speeding offence. And the punishments are limited, usually consisting in fines or suspension of the right to drive. Otoh, impaired driving, i.e., operating or having care or control of a motor vehicle while impaired by alcohol or a drug, is a criminal offense and can result in a lengthy prison term.
One of the difficulties in the US is that there is a confusing melange of federal and state criminal law. In Canada, by contrast, the criminal code falls exclusively under the jurisdiction of the federal government; the provinces do not have separate criminal codes.
5
Articles like this give rise to heart felt feelings in most all of us, but never get down to a central question or point: should there be rules for entering our country (any country) and should they be ignored or tossed out the window for some people, and not for others. And if so, who decides.
Should someone, anyone, simply be able to come across the border and demand citizenship. I detest trump, but on this issue these are valid questions that writers like this one never discuss. And maybe many people here illegally shouldn't be called criminals, but just described as being in violation of our laws.
Further, shouldn't the US like every country have entry rules that are enforced uniformly. Congress should determine each year how many can come in, from where, and what the requirements are. Typically today why do some follow the ten or more year process legally, and in the minds of many others apparently don't have to. How is that fair.
Should someone, anyone, simply be able to come across the border and demand citizenship. I detest trump, but on this issue these are valid questions that writers like this one never discuss. And maybe many people here illegally shouldn't be called criminals, but just described as being in violation of our laws.
Further, shouldn't the US like every country have entry rules that are enforced uniformly. Congress should determine each year how many can come in, from where, and what the requirements are. Typically today why do some follow the ten or more year process legally, and in the minds of many others apparently don't have to. How is that fair.
17
What is needed is a rational discussion of the issue and a policy that is based on fact not fiction. Reagan declared amnesty in 1986; the so-called gang of 8 in Congress proposed a policy to deal with this issue years later. The key is to stop the hypocrisy and the lies coming from this president who appeals to the public's basest instincts and racism. That would be a good start. Visa overstayers come in all races, but the ones who are excoriated and demonized are the nonwhite people from Mexico (and Muslims) when it suits Trump's purpose).
9
Why does the US or any other country have borders? Why do I have to go through customs and immigration when entering the US by automobile, plane or boat?
3
Congress has the power to craft naturalization laws. They can come together to stop Trump's executive order. As it stands, all Republican Congresspeople that do not cross the aisle to make a humane naturalization law are responsible for this dehumanizing authoritarian policy. Anyone that voted Red is complicit.
4
There have been many lessons in history to look away. The xenophobic remarks are establishing the parameters not only for deportation but for citizenship reversals. Fortunately, the media, the social media, and the internet, in general, are tools to expose and oppose the propagandistic brainwash of this administration.
On the other hand, I can safely point out that any public official who abuses his or her government post to enrich himself or herself is entering the world of criminal behavior.
On the other hand, I can safely point out that any public official who abuses his or her government post to enrich himself or herself is entering the world of criminal behavior.
11
Thanks for this article.
We also need a human rights distinction between criminal infractions in the streets and criminal actions in the suites of governments and corporations.
We also need a human rights distinction between criminal infractions in the streets and criminal actions in the suites of governments and corporations.
6
The more I learn about politics, the more I find there are more criminals in the upper echelons of government then on our streets, and I live in Detroit. I read that politicians often use blackmail and other coercions to force compliance with certain views which are meant to increase their oil wealth.
8
Breaking our immigration laws is not akin to a parking ticket. Humans do not have inherent right to move anywhere they wish.
2
@NL452KH: and there are appropriate punishments for parking or speeding -- tickets, fines, court appearances, and if you persist....losing your license or even jail time.
The appropriate punishment for illegal immigration is....being deported back to your native homeland.
To read these comments, and the hysterical, biased Professor Stanley, one would think the US was executing illegal aliens with firing squads and then dumping the corpses in unmarked graves! They are libeling our nation, our President and our entire political system -- because of their sympathy for ILLEGAL CRIMINALS over US citizens.
The appropriate punishment for illegal immigration is....being deported back to your native homeland.
To read these comments, and the hysterical, biased Professor Stanley, one would think the US was executing illegal aliens with firing squads and then dumping the corpses in unmarked graves! They are libeling our nation, our President and our entire political system -- because of their sympathy for ILLEGAL CRIMINALS over US citizens.
Having served as police for nearly a quarter of a century, I retired with the term "criminal" firmly defined in my consciousness. A person, for example, who parks illegally and gets a ticket is not a criminal; we must calculate discretion into an evaluation, and your point about malice is well taken as it speaks to intent.
The current "campaign" against criminal aliens also has a racial component. Even though the posture of many of the 62 million who voted for him (as opposed to the nearly 72 million who voted for someone else - let's not forget the 5.5 for Johnson, etc.) is raucous support for this virtual cleansing exercise, one wonders about race. If we were talking about 11 million Caucasian, Western European folks here "illegally" would there be the same standards for deportation? I doubt it.
The current "campaign" against criminal aliens also has a racial component. Even though the posture of many of the 62 million who voted for him (as opposed to the nearly 72 million who voted for someone else - let's not forget the 5.5 for Johnson, etc.) is raucous support for this virtual cleansing exercise, one wonders about race. If we were talking about 11 million Caucasian, Western European folks here "illegally" would there be the same standards for deportation? I doubt it.
236
Agreed. A good question is how may of the Irish who stay after their visa is expired will be deported? Want to bet it is not going to be very many?
It was in the past for instance with the Irish.... So as you say, no one is safe...
2
Unless they were Irish, or Italian, or Polish, or Jewish (wait, all at one time were not considered as White).
The federal government and each state have criminal codes that are generally similar. The Model Penal Code sets the standard which makes for crimes that are reasonably uniform across the country. We have a shared sense of what is a serious crime and what is trivial and arbitrarily distorting our shared standards undermines our social norms, violating the system by which we distinguish the good from the bad.
3
This business of making anyone with minor "criminal record" subject to extreme penalties could be twisted around to apply to any of us who go against the regime's favored policies. Citizens whose great grandparents were born here, like me, could be swept up in a crackdown.
24
No one is proposing anything of the sort. Sending illegals home because they break our laws is what is being enacted and it is the right thing to do.
4
@carol: that is paranoid hysteria.
NOBODY can deport a legal citizen -- NOBODY -- not the President -- not Congress -- NOBODY.
Once you ARE a citizen, they can send you to jail -- in some states, execute you for your crime -- but they cannot deport you.
To say what you did -- that 3rd generation citizens could be "rounded up in a crackdown" -- is a brazen, partisan LIE.
Furthermore....where on earth would they send you? a third generation American citizen?
When has this EVER been done? can you show on single example?
NOBODY can deport a legal citizen -- NOBODY -- not the President -- not Congress -- NOBODY.
Once you ARE a citizen, they can send you to jail -- in some states, execute you for your crime -- but they cannot deport you.
To say what you did -- that 3rd generation citizens could be "rounded up in a crackdown" -- is a brazen, partisan LIE.
Furthermore....where on earth would they send you? a third generation American citizen?
When has this EVER been done? can you show on single example?
1
I wish during his confirmation hearings Gorsuch was probed on issues like this.
Some indirect questions. He had some strident views that seemed to lead to interpret the Constitution for his political aims
Along those lines I have to believe he would have been in the majority for the Dred Scott decision, and fear where he would stand on this.
Some indirect questions. He had some strident views that seemed to lead to interpret the Constitution for his political aims
Along those lines I have to believe he would have been in the majority for the Dred Scott decision, and fear where he would stand on this.
5
Professor Stanley's article presents a “Tale of Two Cities. It shows a fully functional Supreme Court operating at its best. It also reveals a totally dysfunctional population behaving at its worst. When people identified as liberals hear about an immigrant being deported for a traffic violation, they tend to be deeply disturbed by the horror of the situation. On the other hand, by the cheering seen at Trump rallies when deportation is brought up, Trump supporters appear to be taking delight – even pleasure – in the plight of the deported.
In fact, this dichotomy probably explains every policy difference between those labeled as liberal and those labeled as conservative. Liberals tend to support actions that will help ease suffering of those less fortunate. While conservatives tend to support actions that exacerbate or even promote suffering of those less advantaged.
In fact, this dichotomy probably explains every policy difference between those labeled as liberal and those labeled as conservative. Liberals tend to support actions that will help ease suffering of those less fortunate. While conservatives tend to support actions that exacerbate or even promote suffering of those less advantaged.
161
Yes, but not exactly. Liberals esteem the contributions of others, whoever they may be. Illiberals esteem the violations of others, whoever they may be. The pivot points are advantages to group or to self.
3
In all fairness that is somewhat recent. My mother a Holocaust survivor who went underground and worked in a network with Raoul Wallenberg in Hungary and that saved other people. She noticed that when the chips are down there is no telling which way any individual will go.
3
Importing poor people here is only making life miserable for many Americans while failing to hold Latino leaders responsible for their actions and their own failure to act on behalf of their own people.
2
To answer the question in the final sentence of this piece: those in power and
their donors and friends remain safe and profit from the program, just as the perpetrators of the Inquisition did.
their donors and friends remain safe and profit from the program, just as the perpetrators of the Inquisition did.
60
A person makes a conscious decision to walk into a foreign country, knowing that it is against the law, yet does it anyway. Establishes identification, takes a job, and tries to remain under the radar, but knows all along that they are at risk for being discovered and possibly deported. Meanwhile, the list of people around the world sit or return to the embassy or consulate to check on their application to come here. They can't just walk into the country because their country is overseas. They wait and wait. Immigration is a complicated issue, made more so by the millions of illegal immigrants already here, many of whom are good people just wanting to have a better life for themselves and their families.
12
A person makes a conscious decision to knowingly hire a person who made a conscious decision to walk into a foreign country because he knew that first person would eagerly hire them to cut costs.
What's the cause and what's the symptom? Which do you propose treating, the cause of the symptom?
What's the cause and what's the symptom? Which do you propose treating, the cause of the symptom?
9
If a person walks -- or swims, or rows -- into the United States, let him be apprehended and either apply for asylum or be deported. That is the law. If a person is in the U.S. let him be charged and prosecuted for crimes committed. Let him not be insinuated as a criminal, which is not the law. Every person -- including islanders -- have the capacity to cross a border or enter an economic zone to address need. Is that so hard to accept?
2
Hate to burst your bubble but "overseas" people, even Europeans, are here undocumented as well. They just overstay their visa. And those who don't wait the ten years, if lucky, are usually in urgent or dire circumstances. A grandmother in Central America whose granddaughter has been marked out by a vicious gang doesn't have ten days, much less ten years.....
10
I've read enough comments on immigration pieces in the NYT to know that the writer has not staved off the inevitable "they're criminals because they broke the law to come here." The writer here supposes that an immigrant is at least actively pursuing a citizenship that is then snatched away. But immigrants in danger in the US are those who are barred from even seeking citizenship, no matter how long they've lived here, because they entered the country nonprocedurally.
I know, I know: you want me to use the word "illegally." That's because the real philosophical question is whether the movements of human beings should be restricted because of artificial, imaginary lines on the earth. If the border were real, we wouldn't need a wall, and we wouldn't need to worry about the environmental consequences or the engineering challenges of putting a barricade in place where the laws of nature have decreed none should be.
The problem is conflating human rights and civil rights, as if one leads naturally to the other. Human rights are those that are essential to our flourishing as the kinds of creatures we are, like access to food, water, shelter, and getting to do what you're cut out for. Civil rights are those that are constructed by law and pertain to our citizenship, such as voting. Many of our problems in the US arise from allowing law written for the haves to constrain the natural rights of the have-nots. We're so used to it we don't even realize how fragile our own status is.
I know, I know: you want me to use the word "illegally." That's because the real philosophical question is whether the movements of human beings should be restricted because of artificial, imaginary lines on the earth. If the border were real, we wouldn't need a wall, and we wouldn't need to worry about the environmental consequences or the engineering challenges of putting a barricade in place where the laws of nature have decreed none should be.
The problem is conflating human rights and civil rights, as if one leads naturally to the other. Human rights are those that are essential to our flourishing as the kinds of creatures we are, like access to food, water, shelter, and getting to do what you're cut out for. Civil rights are those that are constructed by law and pertain to our citizenship, such as voting. Many of our problems in the US arise from allowing law written for the haves to constrain the natural rights of the have-nots. We're so used to it we don't even realize how fragile our own status is.
161
Without civil rights there would be no civility and how does anarchy serve to protect basic human rights?
7
I disagree that the persuasiveness of this essay is impacted in any way by the absence of a debate about the "criminality" of entering the country out side of prescribed procedures. As the author points out, Trump's remarks, dating back to the announcement of his candidacy, have defined criminality clearly as acts of traditional lawlessness (rape, murder, etc). I don't think his "bad hombre" remarks were aimed at those crossing over the border without authorization. I also don't see what drawing a distinction between human rights and civil rights has to do with the thesis of this essay, which is the tendency of autocratic regimes to justify and desensitize the expulsion of "undesirable" members of society by labeling them criminals.
4
"I've read enough comments on immigration pieces in the NYT to know ..."
Yes, me, too. Some people put strict legality above humanity (and above the public good), justifying indiscriminate deportation even of people who grew up in the US, have American families, and are upstanding members of the community. Open hatred infuses many such comments (and it often extends to foreigners who enter legally, aren't immigrating, and don't overstay).
Yes, me, too. Some people put strict legality above humanity (and above the public good), justifying indiscriminate deportation even of people who grew up in the US, have American families, and are upstanding members of the community. Open hatred infuses many such comments (and it often extends to foreigners who enter legally, aren't immigrating, and don't overstay).
11
The right-wing has, in its blogs, long made the claim that every "illegal" has committed a crime by crossing the boarder and is, therefore, a criminal. The Trump administration takes up that claim and turns it into policy. There is no argument that one can make to such people. In their minds, a criminal is one who has committed a crime; all who came illegally have committed a crime and, no matter their other behavior over years or even decades, must "pay" for that crime.
It is horrible and unjust, but unfortunately the country has elected a man who is perfectly willing to believe that sinister view of the desperate seeking people. We will not change the view of the right-wing or of Trump, so we must stand against it any way we can - offering sanctuary no matter the price and bringing lawsuits (and supporting those who do) seem to be the most effective means.
It is horrible and unjust, but unfortunately the country has elected a man who is perfectly willing to believe that sinister view of the desperate seeking people. We will not change the view of the right-wing or of Trump, so we must stand against it any way we can - offering sanctuary no matter the price and bringing lawsuits (and supporting those who do) seem to be the most effective means.
312
Though it's not *merely* someone who has committed a crime who is a criminal, as evinced by the fact that those who themselves have e.g., traffic citations merely stare at you and blink when you note they, too, have broken the law and so are criminals. Only those who look like *this* and break *these* laws are criminals.
5
Trump hasn’t proposed any changes to immigration law. The “Take Care Clause” of the Constitution tasks presidents to take care that laws are faithfully executed. The law Donald Trump is taking care to enforce is the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act, which President Bill Clinton signed into law in 1996. This act, which passed with board bipartisan support in both houses, calls for the deportation of foreign nationals unlawfully present in the United States.
6
Every illegal alien in this country has committed a crime but remaining here beyond the stay of their visa. What else do you call it? Deportation is remedying the crime, not punishing them for it. There is nothing unjust in it at all.
To compare actively staying in a foreign nation against their immigration policy to speeding is sophomoric. How about the other way? If we allow illegals to stay in country, why not allow murders to go free? Or prostitutes and johns?
At some point there is a line, and violating the very concept of the sovereign nation state seems more on the murder side of the line than the speeding side of the line.
To compare actively staying in a foreign nation against their immigration policy to speeding is sophomoric. How about the other way? If we allow illegals to stay in country, why not allow murders to go free? Or prostitutes and johns?
At some point there is a line, and violating the very concept of the sovereign nation state seems more on the murder side of the line than the speeding side of the line.
9
I don't believe that we should be deporting our citizens or those that have followed proper procedures to live here. However, it is a crime to cross our borders without following procedures or gaining permission to so, and that makes the person a criminal worthy of exile/deportation.