This is the best defense of Le Pen that I've read.
I guess she'll win, because of understandable public reaction to terrorism.
The apparent failure of her opponents to fully coalesce for Macron is apparently a serious indication in her favor too.
The unraveling of the EU is to me alarming, because it seemingly weakens Europe.
Her apparent or implicit alliance with Putin surely upsets NATO, while he's having successes at the expense of the unity/stability/leadership of Western Civilization.
So I think you're wrong, and from reading the paleo rightist Pat Buchanan, I am confused that the apparent decline of West by way of BREXIT, DJT, and perhaps now FREXIT is not more worrisome to the right.
Et tu Germany? Mrs. Merkel probably will be defeated by terrorism-immigration too.
I guess she'll win, because of understandable public reaction to terrorism.
The apparent failure of her opponents to fully coalesce for Macron is apparently a serious indication in her favor too.
The unraveling of the EU is to me alarming, because it seemingly weakens Europe.
Her apparent or implicit alliance with Putin surely upsets NATO, while he's having successes at the expense of the unity/stability/leadership of Western Civilization.
So I think you're wrong, and from reading the paleo rightist Pat Buchanan, I am confused that the apparent decline of West by way of BREXIT, DJT, and perhaps now FREXIT is not more worrisome to the right.
Et tu Germany? Mrs. Merkel probably will be defeated by terrorism-immigration too.
15
This column seems to cross the line from Douthat's usual snarky (and unproven) snipes into downright ignorance. He seems to taken as true by definition that the Euro is a disaster, without any evidence -blaming it on Germany, as if somehow the rest of Europe wasn't in the room when this process happened. This is no different from all the times Trump says "Obamacare is a disaster" with no evidence or explanation and it really has no place in a column like this. Just saying something over and over again doesn't make it true, it just makes the person saying it sound ignorant and pushy -like Trump.
And for God's sake LePen is a fascist who's putting on a good face to try to get elected -duh. She is even more dangerous than a fool like Trump -she's smart and evil, which is much scarier than dumb and evil.
And for God's sake LePen is a fascist who's putting on a good face to try to get elected -duh. She is even more dangerous than a fool like Trump -she's smart and evil, which is much scarier than dumb and evil.
130
Douthat just laid a tulip on the altar of geopolitics in the form of undermining a shining example of liberal democracy and enlightened capitalism - the EU. It is consistent with public comments of Trump that did not help Le Pen and Obama's public endorsement of UK remaining in EU which not surprisingly accomplished the opposite.
7
I certainly don't agree with Le Pen, but she has a reasonably clear platform, whereas Macron's is: "I'm not Le Pen, and I don't belong to any major political party". Not exactly inspiring, particularly as he's going to have to work closely with one or more of the parties to get anything done.
12
What this article chiefly shows is that Mr.Douthat knows very little about France, or about Marine Le Pen, and is shooting from the hip. Not a word here about the FN being funded by Putin, or her defrauding the European Parliament, which is currently docking half her salary as a European deputy as a result. And the description of Macron is a caricature. This piece is a disgrace.
86
Why do writers--conservative pundits--like Douthat think it's intellectually interesting to poke at whether or not there's a case to be made for candidates like Le Pen and parties like the National Front? Is this not just another instance of trying to be conservative intellectually chic, in the manner that Tom Wolfe decried in his critique of liberals in Radical Chic and Mau-Mauing the Flak Catchers. If Bernstein's party's and a certain liberalism of the 1960s deserved such scourge, so too does punditing like this.
21
Farcical piece. The 'country and the continent better off without the EU'? The facts do not support your assertion Mr Douthat. France will elect Macron and they and the whole world will be better off for it.
40
No, Mr. Douthat, you can't praise Marine le Pen without endorsing her repulsive party, and le Pen can't be "the repulsive party's standard-bearer" without being repulsive herself. As the saying goes, "lie down with dogs, get up with fleas." Careful of that itching sensation, Mr. Douthat.
70
Oddly, when Ross Douthat forwards his most dubious assertions, as is the case here, he is also at his most precise, his language offering the clarity one rarely finds in his tortured ruminations tinged with mystique incantations and post modernist twists of "that old time religion." But he is wrong in either case.
25
I am just amazed by all the comments of people residing in North America, who have no clue of the situation in France who comparé Le Pen to Trimp. Marine has nothing to do with Trump, does not have his personality, and is far more intelligent. The only intelligent thing Trump has said is "Paris is no longer Paris.
Visit. And you will see how mass migration and Islam have changed Paris and France.
I can only hope the same does not happen to the USA
Visit. And you will see how mass migration and Islam have changed Paris and France.
I can only hope the same does not happen to the USA
35
Le Pen is the French patriot who wants to save the French culture which has steadily been losing out to the open-border globalists. The global advocates do not benefit the common French people. In short, Le Pen is Joan D'Arc or Marianne and her opponent Macron is Quisling. Unfortunately, France looks like they will not vote for the French nationalist but instead the status quo candidate, which does not represent the interests of the French people.
After 5 more years of the failed status quo, the French will probably be ready for Le Pen, if it is not too late.
After 5 more years of the failed status quo, the French will probably be ready for Le Pen, if it is not too late.
22
Why does the NYT allow racists comments about white people?
18
Calling the euro a product of German imperialism is ridiculous. It was actually a product of the post-Cold War "third way" politics that adopted the growing hostility to traditional ideas and institutions to legitimize a post-traditional, bureaucratic rule by technocrats allergic to democracy. The EU was the crowning achievement of that outlook: a series of institutions that removed many major decisions from the hands of national electorates and placed them in the hands of trans-national bodies run by policy "experts" and nationally elected politicians who cordoned themselves off from the hoi polloi in conference rooms in Brussels. This new trans-national rule by technocrats was supposed to bring a world of stability and bulletproof policies drawn up by experts. The economic slump that expressed itself in the ongoing financial crisis has exposed this third way as weak and pompous, and the demos has started to make its presence felt again by rejecting it at the ballot box.
24
Le Pen is trying to appeal to voters outside the National Front by trying to imitate De Gaulle by stepping from the leadership of her party the National Front. The idea of the non-partisan president is fiction. Even De Gaulle needed a party to help him win elections and to build a parliamentary majority. Likewise, Le Pen’s move is, in reality, purely symbolic. Her party will not meet in any formal way until after the campaign anyway, and her personal authority is such that her leadership position simply remains questionable
until after the second round.
until after the second round.
6
This column is full of errors, but it might be worth recalling that the euro was not invented as an instrument of German imperialism, but by France. Mitterrand saw the euro as the best way of tying the all-powerful solitary Deutsch mark to the communal interests of the EU. Why should Germany be blamed for managing a peaceful unification and carrying out the economic reforms that explain its strength today? Le Pen's "solution" of leaving the EU and the euro would plunge France into still greater chaos. A valid question is whether Macron can do what has to be done without having to face down war in the streets. At the moment, the extreme left (Melenchon) and the extreme right (Le Pen) have profound fear of the future and nostalgia for the past in common. They are the forces of conservatism standing in the way of change.
35
How I love it when poorly informed, self-proclaimed American pundits write about Europe as blind people write about color, and hope that their audience won't notice the nonsense. So much is factually wrong in this article - on Le Pen, on the nature of the euro, on anti-Islamism - that trying to collect these blunders is a pointless exercise.
The key point that Douhat does not get is what a victory of Le Pen would have meant for the European project. European integration, despite all its flaws and shortcomings, has secured peace, security, and prosperity in Europe for the past 60 years - a continent in which countries regularly went to war with one another. No one in his sober mind would want go back to this. But there was a real risk that peculiarities of the French electoral system would have led to a run-off between two extremist, anti-European candidates, one of them Le Pen.
Such an outcome would've been far worse and momentous than Trump's election victory in the United States. American presidents come and go, even if they are as spectacularly unqualified as Donald Trump. But a Le Pen victory would not only have been about herself. It would have risked to undo the postwar European order.
Fortunately, Le Pen won't has no chance in a run off against a centrist, rationality driven, mainstream candidate - also this is an important difference between France and the United States.
The key point that Douhat does not get is what a victory of Le Pen would have meant for the European project. European integration, despite all its flaws and shortcomings, has secured peace, security, and prosperity in Europe for the past 60 years - a continent in which countries regularly went to war with one another. No one in his sober mind would want go back to this. But there was a real risk that peculiarities of the French electoral system would have led to a run-off between two extremist, anti-European candidates, one of them Le Pen.
Such an outcome would've been far worse and momentous than Trump's election victory in the United States. American presidents come and go, even if they are as spectacularly unqualified as Donald Trump. But a Le Pen victory would not only have been about herself. It would have risked to undo the postwar European order.
Fortunately, Le Pen won't has no chance in a run off against a centrist, rationality driven, mainstream candidate - also this is an important difference between France and the United States.
42
''There is no American equivalent to the epic disaster of the euro, a form of German imperialism with the struggling parts of Europe as its subjects' -- I would not be surprised to hear that from Mrs Le Pen or Mr Melenchon, but from a NYT columnist I just can't believe it. Does Mr. Douthat know that, back in 1991, it was French officials, starting with President Mitterand, who imposed the single currency to a very reluctant German government?
34
The so called disaster Euro was worth .82% of the dollar shortly after it was introduced
1 European Euro = 0.82 US dollars October 2000
Today a US dollar is a mere 92% of the European euro
1 US dollar = 0.92 Euros
Hm if you changed 100% of your wealth from dollars to Euros during the year 2000 today you would a GAIN of close to 30%. Since when is gain called loss?
1 European Euro = 0.82 US dollars October 2000
Today a US dollar is a mere 92% of the European euro
1 US dollar = 0.92 Euros
Hm if you changed 100% of your wealth from dollars to Euros during the year 2000 today you would a GAIN of close to 30%. Since when is gain called loss?
18
To think that Marine Le Pen's anti Muslim feelings are shared by others scarcely justifies them. Nor is it exact. Le Pen, for instance, railed against Muslims praying on the public sidewalks when certain Mosques were insufficiently large to hold them. This in the name of 'laicite'. No one from the parties of the right echoed her, at least to my knowledge. The hatred of Islam in that remark as well as others was too apparent. Her anti Muslim statements were certainly political, but they were not merely strategic. They sometimes displayed deep hatred.To blame others for one's problems in the name of love of one's country is not limited to France, of course. I don't think it is banal in France. Douthat should not help it to become so.
18
There is no case for Hillary Clinton, but there is one for Le Pen.
Remarkable. I couldn't go along with that if you paid me.
Remarkable. I couldn't go along with that if you paid me.
35
The answer to the question posed by the title of the article is "absolutely not". Right-wing politics never works to the good of the citizenry.
19
After two world wars and hundreds of people dead and near utter destruction of Europe's major cities there is continued support for nationalism and a non-interrogated Europe. How we soon we forget. Why was the US drawn in these conflicts in the fist place. How does Europe pay for such past destruction? By redrawing up their battle lines? Surely Europe's problems can be solved without hatred and racism and proto-fascism.
13
Finally a fair piece of analysis from the NYT on Marine Le Pen. It's amazing how people in the US impose their US-centric view of politics on other countries without ever actually thinking about what some of these political leaders in Europe say and do. For the most part, the far right leaders in Western Europe are about where the center is in U.S. politics. The real fascists are the ones you find in Moscow and the White House right now...
8
So true indeed.
5
Sir: I rarely agree with you, but at least you are one of the few journalists, which practices dialectics to defend your arguments. Your article is good in my view. Le Pen evoques De Gaulle too often for my taste. It is easy to make the dead speak. Her father was a De Gaulle hater and some of his soulmates tried twice to assassinate him. De Gaulle was not anti-European as you say. He was a realist and saw Europe as multiplier for France’s influence in the world. His vision at the times was: Let Germany lead on the economy; let France lead on foreign policy. He would have adjusted to the post Cold War world. One cannot project 1960’s ideas into today’s world. I believe that De Gaulle would have modernized France to compete in an open world, which Macron wants to do. Her would oppose Le Pen, for she is a reactionary turned on the past. By the way, 55% of the French living in North America voted for Macron. Only 7% voted for her. Maybe, De Gaulle would have voted for Macron.
10
Making a case for fascism. Brilliant.
30
"France First," "American First," and "Britain First" are hardly synonymous with fascism, much as the left would like to paint it. Admitting immigrants with no regard to balancing national economic issues and preserving national traditions, such as what was once regarded as "Frenchness" or "Englishness," obviously is going to upset a sizeable percentage of the population. Turning around and accusing them in turn of racism and xenophobia simply gilds that leftist lily with this circular process. One cannot help but be struck by the distinctive contrast with photos of the charming "Arab quarters" of various European cities and towns in--say--the 1950s vs the current change in the appearance of sleepy French seaside towns and previously pastoral villages. Multiculturalism and change are a good thing. But a respect and love and--YE!--readiness to embrace the culture of the country you are immigrating to are essential. Liberals seem to have NO concerns about this and the backlash as a result should hardly be a surprise. Certainly the solution is not to label these good people fascists. Maine Le Pen understands this--as did Donald Trump.
17
Read more history.
12
I don't know what world you live in Mr. Douthat, but it is certainly not one that anyone, anywhere should have to live in. Marine Le Pen is merely another Putin puppet. Aren't we are having enough trouble dealing with our own Putin puppet President?
12
Trump would have banned Muslims, repealed Obamacare leaving only a pretense in it's place, cut his own taxes dramatically, and begun wasting billions on a wall if he weren't so amazingly incompetent. So Douthat thinks France should elect a competent version of Trump.
10
Interestingly, the failure of this argument from an openly religious columnist is a moral one. There's no problem with Douthat's intellectual powers; you have only to read his columns to appreciate his depth and to be glad the Times has the ability to employ someone like him. But in this case, he overthinks the issue by justifying LePen on economic and border protection grounds. However, she is a born and bred racist, having learned at the master's knee, and no amount of trying to distance herself from overt Nazis has seemed to erase the old tapes which inform her ideas. This fact and her resulting worldview trumps any other attributes. The problems and strife of our modern world are too overwhelming, too much in need of compassion, to ever support a LePen or a Trump. The distance between scapegoating and genocide is simply too small. Douthat displays a dated, guardian personality, preferring to draw lines rather than work across them. If you follow his columns, you see this attitude when he writes as a Catholic who disapproves of Pope Francis. What has the indefatigable, kind pope done wrong, in the journalist's view? He's too liberal, too inclusive; he won't hold the line at traditional values and even hints at accepting gay lifestyles and allowing communion for divorced people who remarry. In effect, he's weak at the religious borders. Let's hope the Catholics of France and the rest of the electorate embrace Pope Francis' "weakness" and not LePen's "strength" on May 7.
18
There is no case for Le Pen - with or without a (rhetorical?) question mark. Surprised to read such nonsense in the NYT.
14
The far right seems to be in vogue in France as well as in the U.S. But for every practical idea they advance, they can't come up with money to pay for it.
Their programs are almost always to stop something rather than introduce an improvement. France is a Catholic country, so antisemitism is natural to it with or without Le-Penn. She is just employing it to raise votes. Only Hitler really meant it. Let's give her a chance.
Their programs are almost always to stop something rather than introduce an improvement. France is a Catholic country, so antisemitism is natural to it with or without Le-Penn. She is just employing it to raise votes. Only Hitler really meant it. Let's give her a chance.
1
People, STOP voting for politicians who dye their hair, wear wigs and ARE FAKE!
LePen is Putin's operative in France. Putin wants to destroy Europe and America.
His teams of Russian trolls and cyber-hackers will dismantle and destroy all
democracies BECAUSE people are TOO LAZY to THINK and they believe right-wing propaganda. Too easy to con.
LePen is Putin's operative in France. Putin wants to destroy Europe and America.
His teams of Russian trolls and cyber-hackers will dismantle and destroy all
democracies BECAUSE people are TOO LAZY to THINK and they believe right-wing propaganda. Too easy to con.
10
Although it is always painful to read Douthat, I tried with moderate success to slog through this apparent defense of the fascist-racist party, and have to marvel how Douthat manages to write an entire column about Marine Le Pen and not mention the name "Vladimir Putin" even once. Russia is again interfering in foreign elections. Marine Le Pen (and Donald Trump) dutifully sought Putin's endorsement, for they know Putin gets results, although you have to make a deal with the devil, or an ex-KGB thug. Furthermore, Douthat seems to consider electing a bunch of right-wing fascists to the highest offices a small price to pay if it keeps those non-Christians in their place.
43
In France, Political Correctness is more than a ridiculous set of opinions; it’s also—and primarily—a tool of government coercion … It determines the current polarity in French politics. Where you stand depends largely on whether you believe that antiracism is a sincere response to a genuine upsurge of public hatred or an opportunistic posture for elites seeking to justify their rule.
As the prospect of rising in the world is hampered or extinguished, the inducements to ideological conformism weaken. Dissent appears. Political Correctness grows more draconian. Finally the ruling class reaches a dangerous stage, in which it begins to lose not only its legitimacy but also a sense of what its legitimacy rested on in the first place.
As the prospect of rising in the world is hampered or extinguished, the inducements to ideological conformism weaken. Dissent appears. Political Correctness grows more draconian. Finally the ruling class reaches a dangerous stage, in which it begins to lose not only its legitimacy but also a sense of what its legitimacy rested on in the first place.
6
For the sake of accuracy, it is not correct to say that the National Front never won more than 20 per cent of the vote; in the elections for European Parliament, Ms Le Pen's National Front took 24.85 per cent of the vote. As for the first round of the 2017 presidential election, the official final results as provided by the French Ministry of the Interior, give 24.01 per cent to Mr Macron and 21.30 per cent to Ms Le Pen.
8
Is there a case for Le Pen - Non, La France!
7
Ms Le Pen is earning her salary from the EU Parliament. If she wants to change the EU, why not work within the Parliament? She is a racist and has misused EU funding to finance her campaign. Like Trump, she lies repeatly. Exiting the EU will leave France in poor economic condition. The UK will see the exit of the financial industry from London and the country will become much poorer. A united Europe has prevented war for 70 years! Break it up and there will be war in Europe.
10
The political pendulum rocking western civilization may very well be swinging back towards a reactionary right, but it is hard to argue that it is returning from a dangerously sharp edged left.
LePen may well be an interesting experiment that we should all watch carefully if elected....
LePen may well be an interesting experiment that we should all watch carefully if elected....
1
“The old and completely rotten Republican Front, which no one wants, and which the French have pushed away with exceptional violence, is trying to coalesce around Mr. Macron” - Marine Le Pen
The Republican Front is what's left of Charles DeGaulle's legacy, so Douthat can't hide the fact that his piece is a Fascist apology.
Le Pen isn't DeGaulle, but rather the legacy of Vichy. She may seem rational, but her supporters are not. Like with Trump and America, Le Pen brings out the worst side of France.
The Republican Front is what's left of Charles DeGaulle's legacy, so Douthat can't hide the fact that his piece is a Fascist apology.
Le Pen isn't DeGaulle, but rather the legacy of Vichy. She may seem rational, but her supporters are not. Like with Trump and America, Le Pen brings out the worst side of France.
7
The Republican Front, the UMP before, and the so-called gaullists, have utterly betrayed De Gaulle, who is spinning in his grave. I suspect le grand Charles would reject both Le Pen and Macron.
1
Our enlightened, broadminded globalist betters will tell us, No, there is not a case for Le Pen, because periodic mass murders by Islamic terrorists on French soil is a small price to pay for the blessings of a vibrant, multicultural society with free flow of goods, services, and people across the border.
7
She is Putins choice. The radical left is not advising against her. Probably Putin is behind this as well. Putin wants to destroy Europe. Brexit was his first success.
11
There is a case for Le Pen in the same way there was a case for Hitler, and many prominent and "patriotic" supported these tyrants during their rise to power, Mr. Douthat buys into the same flawed arguments as Henry Ford and Charles LIndbergh, nearly a century ago.
21
Characterizing the euro as "German imperialism", besides being flatly absurd as a historical description, is grossly and gratuitously inflammatory. You do understand that in European historical terms, "German imperialism" refers to something far worse than monetary policy, don't you? You should be ashamed to make such a flippant remark.
25
Using Trump in any analogy with LePen is false because Trump lost the people's vote by 3 million, a landslide using contemporary norms. Trump was rejected and I hope LePen will be too. Just because Appalachia's voters gave Trump a win is the flimsiest of excuses to claim his beliefs are shared by anything but a minority or are relevant in France.
11
It is rather strange that Ross Douthat, who usually appears to be a literate person, falls for the fake news about "mass immigration". According to the French National Institute of Statistics, net immigration by foreign citizens was 140,000 in 2013, a decline from 164,000 in 2006, and the total share of foreigners in the population rose by 0.8 per cent during the same period (see https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/1521331). This is hardly mass immigration by any measure. Ross is right that Le Pen is smarter than Trump, but that does not make me feel any more calm about the prospects for a Le Pen victory. After more than 30 years in France, I'm preparing to pack my bags. Fascists are fascists, regardless of their IQ.
22
Hitler was even smarter than Le Pen but even worse.
I notice Douthat ignores Le Pen's blatant homophobia. I guess LGBT rights aren't worth mentioning even though her father just grossly insulted the husband of a gendarme killed by terrorists or did I miss some pro forma disavowal??
18
The French have been tolerant -- which is a great quality -- but too much so. It began to become clear that the French might be too tolerant, with regards to radical Islam, when the Ayatollah Khomeini made his home in Paris whilst plotting the Iranian Islamic Revolution and calling the USA, "The Great Satan." The French have a beautiful culture, and the right to defend it, even if that means not accepting every refugee and immigrant who shows up.
This article offers perhaps some food for thought, but ultimately Douthat is thinking wishfully with all his carefully crafted nuance. His points here add up to not much more than armchair ruminations from an outsider. American readers shouldn't take his assertions here as the viewpoint of someone who is intimately familiar with the European system or what is at stake with the Front National gaining the spotlight. Neither the FN nor Le Pen deserve any of the careful consideration that Douthat wants us to give them. Rather than a sensible course correction, the FN promises to drive Europe - and France - straight off a cliff. Any sensible intellectual with a public platform like Mr. Douthat needs to be clear about this fact.
14
If the French are like the Americans then they also find themselves in a deep, dirty swamp. Fortunately, for them they still have time to stay away from being swamped and finding the rise of another Marie Antoinette as their Leader.
2
From Charles Martel to Charlemagne to Robespierre to Napoleon to Petain to De Gaulle there is the white supremacist Roman Catholic essence of enduring evil that lives in historical memory in the violent ethnic sectarian colored terror at Agincourt, the St. Bartholomew Massacre, the guillotine, Waterloo, Somme, Vichy, Vietnam and Algeria. Marine Le Pen is an apt modern expression of that darkly unique French inhumane inhuman immoral naturally nurtured character.
5
The proposal of the National Front's former leader, Mr. Jaikh, that people should be able to freely research the Holocaust and let the chips fall where they may, sounds suspiciously like the claim of political provocateurs in the U.S. that they should be able to speak on university campuses under the mantel of free speech.
3
So you've taken to defending National Front politicians? This is real? Next time you whine about those on the left labeling conservatives white supremacists, I will direct you to the time you 'made a case' for the National Front. This is beyond the pale.
25
I'm amazed that everyone still wants to blame Vichy for anti-antisemitism. Vichy pretty much disappeared in 1942 when Germany invaded southern France. The real anti-Semites in France these days are the Muslims, and yet for some reason they get a pass from the liberal press, who continue to blame Vichy and Le Pen.
Of course. I bet that having Mussolini around encouraged Hitler.
Fascism breeds fascists.
The question has it ever been good? Have authoritarians ever been good for people.
Fascism breeds fascists.
The question has it ever been good? Have authoritarians ever been good for people.
7
Ross, where in God's name did you get the notion that "nobody seriously doubts her competence." What competence? To do what? She is about as ugly a candidate as I have seen and heard in my lifetime. She's a rigid, nasty, bigoted person who would do enormous damage to France and to Europe.
19
Le Pen and all her ilk reek of the rotting stench of fascism. My grandfather - like many of our grandfathers - sacrificed his best years and almost lost his life to destroy the lying, opportunistic, racist, thieving, destructive, authoritarian, murderous vermin that called themselves Fascists back in WWII.
Le Pen is still a FASCIST and anyone even considering if there is a "case" for her is insulting the memory of millions of soldiers that fought and died to rid the world of people exactly like her.
NO, NO, NO. There is NO case for Le Pen, no matter how she presents herself and her political movement. Fascism must stay dead forever, at all costs. Enough people have suffered and died because of the false promises, lies and easy populist thinking promoted by fascists in the 20th century.
Le Pen is still a FASCIST and anyone even considering if there is a "case" for her is insulting the memory of millions of soldiers that fought and died to rid the world of people exactly like her.
NO, NO, NO. There is NO case for Le Pen, no matter how she presents herself and her political movement. Fascism must stay dead forever, at all costs. Enough people have suffered and died because of the false promises, lies and easy populist thinking promoted by fascists in the 20th century.
22
Years of hatred, racism, and xenophobia can be wrapped in the flag provide a population for Le Pen to exploit.
The EU was a French plan long before anyone could pretend that it is a German imperialist deception. The EU and the Euro are what has maintained prosperity and peace in Europe. It was the outrageous fraud of Rogoff/Reinhart austerity that crippled the EU and created stagnation. It was climate change and famine in Yemen and Syria and northern Africa that fomented the Arab African diaspora. It was nationalist colonial France and Belgium exploitation that continues the forever war Africa. And, Le Pen offers nationalist fear, racism, and religious intolerance as a solution. Could the de-regulation, tax cuts and rampant speculation that caused the financial collapse coupled with austerity and resultant stagnation be engineered to undermine democracy?
The aristocrats want their power back. They do not fear confiscation of their land any more. Elements of Vichy and their heirs are among the aristocratic-neo-Nazi Le Pen supporters.
So, no, Le Pen is not the answer but the consequence of efforts to divide and conquer. Her destiny may be in Putin's hands with Trump's support.
The EU was a French plan long before anyone could pretend that it is a German imperialist deception. The EU and the Euro are what has maintained prosperity and peace in Europe. It was the outrageous fraud of Rogoff/Reinhart austerity that crippled the EU and created stagnation. It was climate change and famine in Yemen and Syria and northern Africa that fomented the Arab African diaspora. It was nationalist colonial France and Belgium exploitation that continues the forever war Africa. And, Le Pen offers nationalist fear, racism, and religious intolerance as a solution. Could the de-regulation, tax cuts and rampant speculation that caused the financial collapse coupled with austerity and resultant stagnation be engineered to undermine democracy?
The aristocrats want their power back. They do not fear confiscation of their land any more. Elements of Vichy and their heirs are among the aristocratic-neo-Nazi Le Pen supporters.
So, no, Le Pen is not the answer but the consequence of efforts to divide and conquer. Her destiny may be in Putin's hands with Trump's support.
11
The left is to blame for the rise of the right. The left has moved so far left that they gave centrists little choice but to vote right.
The left has made it "un-respectable" for the majority to celebrate their nationality, ethnicity, culture, and religion. The left has forced a hypocritical ideology on everyone except themselves.
The left has made it "un-respectable" for the majority to celebrate their nationality, ethnicity, culture, and religion. The left has forced a hypocritical ideology on everyone except themselves.
3
Nationalism gave us two world wars. I think I'll pass this time.
10
Has everyone forgotten the lessons of Yugoslavia, 1991-1997? As well as two world wars, much more recently nationalism (fueled by a good dose of extreme right-wing rabble-rousing populism) gave us the horrors of ethnic cleansing, the mass murders of countless civilians, the displacement of entire populations and the fragmentation of an entire country into belligerent medieval fiefdoms.
People like Le Pen are no different from the Serbian fanatic president Milosevic.
People like Le Pen are no different from the Serbian fanatic president Milosevic.
6
You are right! La Pen is Techno-Trump. The incompetence of Trump's administration and Paul Ryan's Congress have protected us (so far) from their designs. La Pen in France would be like an Angela Merkel endowed with Donald Trump's lizard brain. That should terrify the French, Europe, and the World.
9
The National Front may have its roots in Vichy and in a kind of rightism peculiar to Europe, with its anti-semitism, extreme nationalism, and reactionary-fascistic elements. Before that, there was throne-and-altar conservatism. But then, the American Democrat Party was the party of slavery, segregation, and Jim Crow. They were out "Vichyites." Some of these things lasted well after the Vichy regime. The Democrat Party is still peppered with anti-semites.
2
The normalization of fascism continues.
16
Well, here we go. The mouthpieces for the American right are not even bothering to hide their adulterous affair with fascism any more. Done with democracy, because they just can't seem to get the majority of Americans on board with the right's extremist policies, they have gone from undermining our government and electoral system, to enabling overt racism, xenophobia, and demagoguery, to praising murderous dictators abroad, to accepting Putin's interference in our elections. Now, we are supposed to consider Marine Le Pen, an unrepentant fascist, as a legitimate candidate for the presidency of France.
When all is said and done, *no one* who supports these views or turns a blind eye to them will be able to claim:
"But I didn't know what was happening!"
"I didn't realize that it would go this far!"
"I had nothing to do with it!"
History will judge who stood for freedom, democracy, and human rights, and who stood for authoritarianism, fascism, and oppression. There are no longer any sidelines, nowhere to hide from the choices each of us have to make on where we stand and what actions we take or don't take. Make your choices carefully. Your children and grandchildren will have to live with them.
When all is said and done, *no one* who supports these views or turns a blind eye to them will be able to claim:
"But I didn't know what was happening!"
"I didn't realize that it would go this far!"
"I had nothing to do with it!"
History will judge who stood for freedom, democracy, and human rights, and who stood for authoritarianism, fascism, and oppression. There are no longer any sidelines, nowhere to hide from the choices each of us have to make on where we stand and what actions we take or don't take. Make your choices carefully. Your children and grandchildren will have to live with them.
16
Should be noted, that the leader in the French presidential race, and expected winner, Emmanuel Macron, has suggested that terrorism is the price France (meaning everyone but his peers) pays as it becomes multicultural....meaning Islamicized.
This is not surprise as the world was given far more of a taste in who is subordinate and who is superordinate when the German establishment, media included, decided to turn a blind eye of the New Year's Eve mass molestation of women by immigrants in 2015. It was through social media that the details surface, little wonder that Merkel wants control of Facebook.
This is not surprise as the world was given far more of a taste in who is subordinate and who is superordinate when the German establishment, media included, decided to turn a blind eye of the New Year's Eve mass molestation of women by immigrants in 2015. It was through social media that the details surface, little wonder that Merkel wants control of Facebook.
The simplest case for Marine Le Pen's popularity is also very easy to describe: the French are not willing to lose their cultural identities, the rights and privileges for which they fought for centuries, to Islamic immigrants. Have a high enough percentage of Muslims (and in France, it's currently 10%) and you can expect violent challenges to your values. The Western media had fits when it was said, quite truthfully, that there are quarters of major French cities where the police do not intrude. In Northern England, and recently in America with the arrest of Dr. Juman Nagarwala, little girls are undergoing genital mutilation. Both my parents fought to return France to its rightful owners in World War II, (Army, Army Nurse Corps) and France has given it away. This was obvious when French Jews started getting beaten up by Islamic "youth" , and the French authorities said "it is an attack on religion! Quick, let's have guards at every mosque, church and Jewish synagogue" instead of informing its immigrant population and their offspring that this was unacceptable to the French people. A great example of liberal terror at being called Islamophobic. And French Jews are fleeing, so don't worry too much about French anti-Semitism. So the French may have asked for what they're getting, but that doesn't mean I can't understand them fighting for cultural survival.
15
That people in Arizona believe there are areas of French cities where police fear to go is hysterically ridiculous. You've obviously never seen the police in Paris. They are afraid of nobody and go where they want
6
Marine Le Pen is the only can that can save France. The dissolution of the EU is only bad for its major player and that is Germany. The French understand that Germany is pulling all the strings and, like the British, want away from that situation. Go out and win one for France!!!!
7
Laurent Fabius, a once socialist party grandee, and no sympathiser of the FN once said:" the FN asks the good questions, but does not give the good answers",and therefore, pointing to the shortfalls of the Euro, or to the failure of the policy of assimilation of the population of african origin, or to the persistence of mass unemployment does not make her policies to fix these problems necessarily the good answers. Rather, what she proposes will make things worse, not better
10
You can dress Le Pen any way you wish, but in the end, she's a fascist. To elect Le Pen would desecrate the graves of the greatest generation.
16
Le Pen and her party are fascists plain and simple. No more needs to be said.
12
A touche by Ross to the leftist policy luddites who are unwilling or, even worse, blind to the transformative failures confronting France and Europe.
Too many here in America and in Europe have a sanctimonious attitude of "never again" and "it can't happen here". Well the reality is that when you have a self-dealing global elite and an out of touch, robotic cadre of bureaucrats running the show as we have in Western society today, ugliness can recur and the banality of evil can happen.
Governments and their policies are suppose to be serving ALL the people, not just the needs of the 1% and their weasel-faced toadies. Brexit, Trump, Sanders, Le Pen and, yes, Macron, are all expressions of a general disgust and dismay by the electorate of where we are going as citizens and nations that are not fitting in to the "global collective".
Vive l'Etas Unite! Vive la France! Vive Le Pen!
Too many here in America and in Europe have a sanctimonious attitude of "never again" and "it can't happen here". Well the reality is that when you have a self-dealing global elite and an out of touch, robotic cadre of bureaucrats running the show as we have in Western society today, ugliness can recur and the banality of evil can happen.
Governments and their policies are suppose to be serving ALL the people, not just the needs of the 1% and their weasel-faced toadies. Brexit, Trump, Sanders, Le Pen and, yes, Macron, are all expressions of a general disgust and dismay by the electorate of where we are going as citizens and nations that are not fitting in to the "global collective".
Vive l'Etas Unite! Vive la France! Vive Le Pen!
6
I guess the Enlightenment failed. The land of Voltaire is about to elect a fascist. The USA did elect a fascist. It seems the high hopes we pnce had for the human race were misplaced and we do deserve the extinction we are so rapidly bringing upon ourselves. Good riddance to bad rubbish. Homo Sapiens, the most poorly named of all species. I look forward to what will evolve after the Earth is unihabitable by mammals.....we deserve everything bad that will happen because we were warned, starting in the 1970's when we really did figure out 'survival in the 21st century' , to quote the title of a book of the day....
4
Why not title this piece "Is there a Case for a Neo-Fascist, Anti-Semitic Leader of France"?
15
She's a Nazi, Ross. I don't know how this could be any less ambiguous.
12
The author glosses over Le Pen's desire to exit the Euro; "France would be better off without it." Actually, nobody (even your own Krugman) really knows what would happen. Many say that France's GDP could initially fall by a dozen percent were the nation to leave the Euro.
6
No. Next question.
10
Mr. Douthat: Any thoughts about Ms. Le Pen's "144 Commitments for France"?
May I recommend that you, (and others at the NYT), read them.
As well as your readers. Go find Le Pen's website or google 144 Commitments.
May I recommend that you, (and others at the NYT), read them.
As well as your readers. Go find Le Pen's website or google 144 Commitments.
4
Congratulations for having the courage to suggest, and in the New York Times even, that mass immigration may not work as well as we imagine and could even be a net negative. I haven't been a reader, but I think I'll come back again.
6
After each terrorist attack, anywhere, it's hard not to agree with a leader offering a way to curb or eliminate this horrible slaughter. After the Orlando massacre, most Americans likely agreed on some sort of Muslim ban. I did, and I consider myself a liberal.
These are emotional buttons, and people like Trump and Le Pen have gotten very good at pushing them.
All with little regard for the greater good. We have lived for a long time with the threat of terrorism. No politician will change that. It's up to us to identify it as emotional pandering, and try to stick to the greater good as the goal or at least the guiding policy/strategy.
I would feel very differently had I personally experienced the tragedy and terrorism heartbreak creates. Much as I despise the death penalty, I'd support it if someone I loved was a victim. That clearly makes me a hypocrite.
I still think it's important, maybe a duty, for our leaders to keep the greater good in mind. We're not gonna get that with Trump, and the French won't get it with Le Pen.
These are emotional buttons, and people like Trump and Le Pen have gotten very good at pushing them.
All with little regard for the greater good. We have lived for a long time with the threat of terrorism. No politician will change that. It's up to us to identify it as emotional pandering, and try to stick to the greater good as the goal or at least the guiding policy/strategy.
I would feel very differently had I personally experienced the tragedy and terrorism heartbreak creates. Much as I despise the death penalty, I'd support it if someone I loved was a victim. That clearly makes me a hypocrite.
I still think it's important, maybe a duty, for our leaders to keep the greater good in mind. We're not gonna get that with Trump, and the French won't get it with Le Pen.
4
As with our candidates in the last election in France "...nobody seriously doubts Le Pen’s competence, her command of policy, her ability to serve as president without turning the office into a reality-TV thunderdome." In France, the competent, female one is scariest, least rational, a loser, compared with her opponent, a "callow creature of failed consensus".
But how unlike our problems from the French. Douthat has gone to alternate facts school. He claims the French "issues"--its distaste for the Euro, its flood of immigrants overwhelming integration of them--are like those that got Trump elected.
That's right, Trump supporters and the GOP don't like our currency. Seems like they like it too much, would do anything for it.
"...her overarching critique of the euro is correct: Her country and her continent would be better off without it." Why? Douthat should give us a little hint as to why he says such a baldly inaccurate statement?
Any immigration "issues" in the US pale in comparison to the problems France faces.
In contrast to Trump, Le Pen iss a woman who probably has no embarrassing groping in her past, and she's sane.
So, as with Trump, Douthat reaches, stretches and preaches that a recognizable anti-Semite, Islamaphobe, xenophobe, a despotic, overreactionary who incites hatred and division, is the better candidate.
Breathtaking.
But how unlike our problems from the French. Douthat has gone to alternate facts school. He claims the French "issues"--its distaste for the Euro, its flood of immigrants overwhelming integration of them--are like those that got Trump elected.
That's right, Trump supporters and the GOP don't like our currency. Seems like they like it too much, would do anything for it.
"...her overarching critique of the euro is correct: Her country and her continent would be better off without it." Why? Douthat should give us a little hint as to why he says such a baldly inaccurate statement?
Any immigration "issues" in the US pale in comparison to the problems France faces.
In contrast to Trump, Le Pen iss a woman who probably has no embarrassing groping in her past, and she's sane.
So, as with Trump, Douthat reaches, stretches and preaches that a recognizable anti-Semite, Islamaphobe, xenophobe, a despotic, overreactionary who incites hatred and division, is the better candidate.
Breathtaking.
4
"Is There a Case for Le Pen?" Well , yes there is.
And it appears that you, Mr. Douthat, may have just made one.
But first let us remember, before transposing our American values and ethics on another country, that for all her populist righ-wing rhetoric, Marine LePen is not Donald Trump -- and France is not the United States.
Anyone familiar with the old days of Le Front National, when her father, Jean-Marie LePen, was at the helm (and by the way, he didn't "resign" as you state, he was booted out by his daughter after she decided to take the group "mainstream"), also remembers just how virulently anti-immigrant and anti-Semetic the old man was.
These things don't vanish overnight, no matter how many coats of lipstick you put on it.
There's no doubt Ms. LePen has struck a note with some of the French, who rightfully view the recent attacks by Islamic fundamentalists as an attack on their basic freedom, and right to exist.
But will they sacrifice their sacred tenets of 'Libertie, Egalite, Fraternite'? in order to answer the Siren's call?
That depends entirely on the People of France.
Vive la France!
And it appears that you, Mr. Douthat, may have just made one.
But first let us remember, before transposing our American values and ethics on another country, that for all her populist righ-wing rhetoric, Marine LePen is not Donald Trump -- and France is not the United States.
Anyone familiar with the old days of Le Front National, when her father, Jean-Marie LePen, was at the helm (and by the way, he didn't "resign" as you state, he was booted out by his daughter after she decided to take the group "mainstream"), also remembers just how virulently anti-immigrant and anti-Semetic the old man was.
These things don't vanish overnight, no matter how many coats of lipstick you put on it.
There's no doubt Ms. LePen has struck a note with some of the French, who rightfully view the recent attacks by Islamic fundamentalists as an attack on their basic freedom, and right to exist.
But will they sacrifice their sacred tenets of 'Libertie, Egalite, Fraternite'? in order to answer the Siren's call?
That depends entirely on the People of France.
Vive la France!
4
There's a case for Le Pen. The European Union doesn't work for the continent's working class. It's anti-democratic to it's core. Laws in Brussels are made by people who can't be held accountable to voters in Paris. The result:a one-size-fits-all bureaucracy which has eroded the role of national parliaments. The EU bureaucrats have made mistake after mistake (the euro, the Greek debt crisis,etc.)
Then there's unrestricted immigration. Free travel between nations, with no consistency in laws, is a huge national security risk. Loose borders make the containing of terrorists impossible as they can move freely & have support throughout the continent. Since the EU's founding 33 terrorist attacks & over 1000 dead in France alone. You can’t fault the French's instinct to look around & recoil, seeking as much sovereignty as possible by pulling out of the project that spawned such a mess.
The most fiercest critics of Le Pen in the U.S. are Democrats. They are appalled at the National Front's Anti Semitic past which they should be. But there is a touch of hypocrisy in their outrage. From 1950 to 1980 the most defiant racists were Democrats & they found a home in the party. The DNC had no problem with Robert Byrd as the Senate's Majority Leader despite the fact he was an enthusiastic member of the KKK in his youth & he personally filibustered the 1964 Civil Rights Bill for 14 hours! Given our complicated history Le Pen shouldn't be judged on her former party's disreputable past.
Then there's unrestricted immigration. Free travel between nations, with no consistency in laws, is a huge national security risk. Loose borders make the containing of terrorists impossible as they can move freely & have support throughout the continent. Since the EU's founding 33 terrorist attacks & over 1000 dead in France alone. You can’t fault the French's instinct to look around & recoil, seeking as much sovereignty as possible by pulling out of the project that spawned such a mess.
The most fiercest critics of Le Pen in the U.S. are Democrats. They are appalled at the National Front's Anti Semitic past which they should be. But there is a touch of hypocrisy in their outrage. From 1950 to 1980 the most defiant racists were Democrats & they found a home in the party. The DNC had no problem with Robert Byrd as the Senate's Majority Leader despite the fact he was an enthusiastic member of the KKK in his youth & he personally filibustered the 1964 Civil Rights Bill for 14 hours! Given our complicated history Le Pen shouldn't be judged on her former party's disreputable past.
4
There are so many issues about le Pen... Let's pick one:her submission to Putin.
Two years ago her party,the FN borrowed €9 millions ( approx.$10) to a Russian bank in order to finance the regional elections. Little more than a year later, the Russian bank went bankrupt:le Pen rejoiced , decided they didn't belong so much to Putin anymore and went mute about Crimea and Ukraine.
That was very short-sighted as a Russian court decided that, bankrupt or not, the FN still had to pay back. It only took two weeks for le Pen to talk back about easing the EU sanctions against Russia, two more weeks to be photographed at the Kremlin with Putin and say Crimea was part of historic, traditional Russia.
What it means is that, more than any of Trump's minions, she belongs to dear Vladimir Putin.
And I'm not even telling Douthat about his ignorance concerning the Euro and how it benefits the artisan and small enterprises he seems so concerned about
Two years ago her party,the FN borrowed €9 millions ( approx.$10) to a Russian bank in order to finance the regional elections. Little more than a year later, the Russian bank went bankrupt:le Pen rejoiced , decided they didn't belong so much to Putin anymore and went mute about Crimea and Ukraine.
That was very short-sighted as a Russian court decided that, bankrupt or not, the FN still had to pay back. It only took two weeks for le Pen to talk back about easing the EU sanctions against Russia, two more weeks to be photographed at the Kremlin with Putin and say Crimea was part of historic, traditional Russia.
What it means is that, more than any of Trump's minions, she belongs to dear Vladimir Putin.
And I'm not even telling Douthat about his ignorance concerning the Euro and how it benefits the artisan and small enterprises he seems so concerned about
4
It is amusing to see the silence (hmmm) that has enveloped this campaign in the media since last Sunday. No more aside about the 60-40 poll prognostication, and her crazy outside the center stance...
The thing is much closer. But Macron is no Lindsey. With his own 'makers and takers' line he is more like Romney... and if Romney didn't sell here, how could he in the Weltanschauung badlands of France?
Sidebar- the Euro deal is just the same zollernverein with which the Hapsburgs amalgamated the loose German entities beyond the Hapsburgs' pale. "We get rid of these Customs roadblocks and we get Happy Days!" A deeper look into history, almost to the Dark Ages would reveal the connection between the Hanse and, originally, the Hollenzollern Teutonic Knights (Ritterordern). & the Hanse hated those Customs' roadblocks.
(One parting aside- if Russia, or "Putin", really wanted to turn this thing, and crach western democracies, they would plant a little bit of Stuxnet, jiggered to change vote counts, in a few French machines, then make sure that was discovered Tuesday. Why Stuxnet? Because of whose fingerprints was all over it.
That they, he, haven't, is proof of non meddling...)
The thing is much closer. But Macron is no Lindsey. With his own 'makers and takers' line he is more like Romney... and if Romney didn't sell here, how could he in the Weltanschauung badlands of France?
Sidebar- the Euro deal is just the same zollernverein with which the Hapsburgs amalgamated the loose German entities beyond the Hapsburgs' pale. "We get rid of these Customs roadblocks and we get Happy Days!" A deeper look into history, almost to the Dark Ages would reveal the connection between the Hanse and, originally, the Hollenzollern Teutonic Knights (Ritterordern). & the Hanse hated those Customs' roadblocks.
(One parting aside- if Russia, or "Putin", really wanted to turn this thing, and crach western democracies, they would plant a little bit of Stuxnet, jiggered to change vote counts, in a few French machines, then make sure that was discovered Tuesday. Why Stuxnet? Because of whose fingerprints was all over it.
That they, he, haven't, is proof of non meddling...)
2
Macron is Obama. He offers hope, inspiration and a future. Maybe he'll be able to pull it off, where Obama wasn't. But he's not callow, nor an empty vessel, and has something to say other than Marianne, Marianne, Marianne.
4
Either two things: 1) Douthat is deeply ignorant of French history since 1946 and hopes his readers can't see through his manipulative cherry picking of facts to once more taunt his mostly liberal readers who did not sleep through history class. 2) He throws yet another rock into the anthill of potential comment writers, obliging this cottage industry of indignation. In either case, the self-regard and dishonesty continues. And for the record: DeGaulle was a staunch Europeanist who thought Great Britain was not European enough. May he have been right?
2
Ross is consistant in his observations & preferences. Ross shows a inner affection for LePen, and finds areas that he find admirable in her policies, as far as, Macron, is concerned he is described as callow.
Ross leaves out the fact that LePen like her father are devoutly Catholic where Macron appears to be secular.Which explains Douthat’s description of Macron as being callow.
Vivila Macron !
Ross leaves out the fact that LePen like her father are devoutly Catholic where Macron appears to be secular.Which explains Douthat’s description of Macron as being callow.
Vivila Macron !
A touché by Ross. The leftist policy luddites are unwilling to grapple with or, even worse, blind to seeing the transformative failures confronting France and Europe.
Too many here in America and in Europe have a sanctimonious attitude of "never again" and "it can't happen here". Well the reality is that when you have a self-dealing global elite and an out of touch, robotic cadre of bureaucrats running the show as we have in Western society today, ugliness can recur and the banality of evil can happen.
Governments and their policies are supposed to be serving ALL the people, not just the needs of the 1% and their weasel-faced toadies. Brexit, Trump, Sanders, Le Pen and, yes, Macron, are all expressions of a general disgust and dismay by the electorate of where we are going as citizens and nations that are not fitting in to the "global collective".
Vive l'Etats Unite! Vive la France! Vive Le Pen!
Too many here in America and in Europe have a sanctimonious attitude of "never again" and "it can't happen here". Well the reality is that when you have a self-dealing global elite and an out of touch, robotic cadre of bureaucrats running the show as we have in Western society today, ugliness can recur and the banality of evil can happen.
Governments and their policies are supposed to be serving ALL the people, not just the needs of the 1% and their weasel-faced toadies. Brexit, Trump, Sanders, Le Pen and, yes, Macron, are all expressions of a general disgust and dismay by the electorate of where we are going as citizens and nations that are not fitting in to the "global collective".
Vive l'Etats Unite! Vive la France! Vive Le Pen!
2
I am not qualified to comment on the history of the EU or whether Le Pen is more fascist or Gaullist. But I do know that glib denunciations of anti-Semitism offered by a woman who has in her close circle several acknowledged anti-Semities and who offers wink-wink-nudge-nudge appeals to nationalism tinged with anti-Semitism, such as her comment on the Vel d'Hiv roundup, aren't all that convincing.
Trump used the same technique with his belated, halfhearted denunciation of David Duke and his denial that various anti-Semitic themes in his campaign, including his closing video and its association of George Soros and Janet Yellen with destructive global bankers (and we all know who they represent) were what they were. The innocent, what-me-anti-Semitic? response convinces only those who want to be convinced.
The one thing I have learned from watching Trump is to look at what he does, not what he says. He uses words to distract, to disarm, to confuse, and to dominate. He never uses them to tell the truth or to enlighten. I believe Le Pen is much the same. For both of them the goal is power--to dominate, to be validated, to control.
Prenez garde, la France.
Trump used the same technique with his belated, halfhearted denunciation of David Duke and his denial that various anti-Semitic themes in his campaign, including his closing video and its association of George Soros and Janet Yellen with destructive global bankers (and we all know who they represent) were what they were. The innocent, what-me-anti-Semitic? response convinces only those who want to be convinced.
The one thing I have learned from watching Trump is to look at what he does, not what he says. He uses words to distract, to disarm, to confuse, and to dominate. He never uses them to tell the truth or to enlighten. I believe Le Pen is much the same. For both of them the goal is power--to dominate, to be validated, to control.
Prenez garde, la France.
4
Le Pen didn't get rid of Vichy she up-dated it. There is no electoral benefit in attacking Jews; there is a huge one in attacking Muslims. She is a typical populist in that she claims she will stop terrorism and make France great again by shutting the borders, ending ALL immigration, leaving the EU, erecting tariffs and only looking after 'our' interests as opposed to the globalists who are in the pocket of the financiers. Of course, like the Brexiteers she doesn't respond to objections that this will lead to economic stagnation and most likely a severe downturn if the EU breaks up.
The recent Whirlpool confrontation shows what is really beneath her apparent stand for the workers: empty promises.
The recent Whirlpool confrontation shows what is really beneath her apparent stand for the workers: empty promises.
4
Le Pen is far more dangerous than Trump because she is not only racist and opportunist, she wants to destroy the European Union. That's why Putin likes her.
6
I do not understand the absolute denouncing of the Vichy Government.
What else was France to do but co-operate to some extent with Germany
after being utterly defeated in May/June 1940 ?
It would have been better if they had hid all the Jews and others who
the Nazi's demand they turn over, but how many of us would have stood
up to the Nazi's during the War when we too could have been arrested
on the spot.
There is some sort of sense of Moral Superiority toward those who came
before us who lived much harder lives than we did but who failed to live
up to our Moral Ideals. A smugness, if you will, that will lead to your
grandchildren labelling you as moral cowards for not really doing anything
substantial to end homelessness, or the torture that is prisons or that
simple fact that Manhattan has the most segregated schools and housing
in the United States...
What else was France to do but co-operate to some extent with Germany
after being utterly defeated in May/June 1940 ?
It would have been better if they had hid all the Jews and others who
the Nazi's demand they turn over, but how many of us would have stood
up to the Nazi's during the War when we too could have been arrested
on the spot.
There is some sort of sense of Moral Superiority toward those who came
before us who lived much harder lives than we did but who failed to live
up to our Moral Ideals. A smugness, if you will, that will lead to your
grandchildren labelling you as moral cowards for not really doing anything
substantial to end homelessness, or the torture that is prisons or that
simple fact that Manhattan has the most segregated schools and housing
in the United States...
3
I wonder how much Mr Douthat knows about France. Ms Le Pen may have changed the rhetoric of the National Front but she still consorts with admirers of the third Reich and enjoys the support of her father, a Holocaust denier, he was accused of torturing people in Algeria and is a self-confessed racist. Her remarks about the Vel d'hiv anti-Semitic round up 22 years after Chirac acknowledged French responsibility in the crime is a signal sent to closet anti-Semites.
Like Trump she attracts the victims of globalization who want to "send a Molotov cocktail" in the political system and feel that other parties just forgot about them. They are right that the losers of globalization were marginalized and/or forgotten but MS Le Pen has never shown any real determination to be on the side of hard working people. She would betray them like Trump is doing in the US.
But then of course this does not make Macron a nice, competent candidate. He's an arrogant neoliberal who behaves like an heir to the throne. Yet he is the lesser evil, like neoliberal Clinton was in the US. In France whoever gets the most votes at the 2d round will be elected so the neoliberal is most likely to defeat the quasi-fascist.
If French institutions were fairer and more democratic (say more like the German ones) we would not be in this pickle. Man-child Trump may actually deter people from voting for the far right candidate he likes in France.
Don't for a minute imagine Le Pen is fine.
Like Trump she attracts the victims of globalization who want to "send a Molotov cocktail" in the political system and feel that other parties just forgot about them. They are right that the losers of globalization were marginalized and/or forgotten but MS Le Pen has never shown any real determination to be on the side of hard working people. She would betray them like Trump is doing in the US.
But then of course this does not make Macron a nice, competent candidate. He's an arrogant neoliberal who behaves like an heir to the throne. Yet he is the lesser evil, like neoliberal Clinton was in the US. In France whoever gets the most votes at the 2d round will be elected so the neoliberal is most likely to defeat the quasi-fascist.
If French institutions were fairer and more democratic (say more like the German ones) we would not be in this pickle. Man-child Trump may actually deter people from voting for the far right candidate he likes in France.
Don't for a minute imagine Le Pen is fine.
12
Le Pen is worse than Trump, because she actually believes what comes out of her own mouth. Le Pen is truly dangerous, whereas Trump is a buffoon. Le Pen is not another Trump, much worse, she is a Steve Bannon.
11
While not wrong on some things, RD is gilding the fleur de lys. Sure, Le Pen is articulate and focuses on issues - Muslim immigrants and their offspring who do not espouse French values, Brussels' technocratic excesses, untrammeled globalization vs national sovereignty - that resonate. But her Frexit economic views are alarming. The euro system must be adjusted, not junked. I tend to agree that Macron is an empty shell, but he may very well be pragmatic enough to grow and unify. If elected, he will certainly need to assemble and unify, having no political party base of his own. On the other hand, if Le Pen is elected president, it will be very difficult if not impossible for her to implement her stated policies. Parliament is unlikely to have a significant FN contingent. Paradoxically, Le Pen is closer to the neo-marxist, anti-capitalist Mélenchon than to the center or center-right parties. A positive outcome would be a reform of the EU as presently constituted, a partial debrusselization of sorts. Many voters will vote their ras-le-bol, toss-the-bums-out, anti-establishment feelings, like Trump voters. But the analogy with the 2016 US election stops there. Le Pen may be misguided in some ways, but moronic she is not.
There are many imponderables and unpredictables in this election… The tally of the forthcoming vote may be surprising indeed. I suspect it will be close.
There are many imponderables and unpredictables in this election… The tally of the forthcoming vote may be surprising indeed. I suspect it will be close.
4
There is a ridiculous notion extant that NATO and the EU were part of some hippie kumbaya group hug.
Lest we forget, Marine LePen and similar nationalist irritants, including America Firsters, are those this nation and our allies fought a long and bloody war to defeat.
Lest we forget, Marine LePen and similar nationalist irritants, including America Firsters, are those this nation and our allies fought a long and bloody war to defeat.
10
Three things in common between the US / Trump and the UK / Brexit:
1) Reaganomics and Thatcherism
2) Incredible rise in wealth of Wall St. and The City
3) Ruport Murdoch
1) Reaganomics and Thatcherism
2) Incredible rise in wealth of Wall St. and The City
3) Ruport Murdoch
3
Among the many problems she--and France, in general--seem to have is a prob lem with playing second fiddle to Germany. She also has it with regard to the U. K., as one of the two premiere financial capitals, but Theresa May is taking care of that by self-destructing.
Her main appeal is the FRexit. Sure there are problems with the R. U.--an overgrown bureaucracy, and power-crabbing on many local issues--but that can be fixed, if there were true leadership in Brussels.
The key problem with a divorce from the trade union, is that that require having individual trade agreements, with each of 27 other nations, and the specifics would differ--rom one ro another. Also, exiting the Euro and the E. U. simultaneously, would be a real nightmare, something that the U. K. did;'t have to contend with.
https://thetruthoncommonsense.com
Her main appeal is the FRexit. Sure there are problems with the R. U.--an overgrown bureaucracy, and power-crabbing on many local issues--but that can be fixed, if there were true leadership in Brussels.
The key problem with a divorce from the trade union, is that that require having individual trade agreements, with each of 27 other nations, and the specifics would differ--rom one ro another. Also, exiting the Euro and the E. U. simultaneously, would be a real nightmare, something that the U. K. did;'t have to contend with.
https://thetruthoncommonsense.com
2
LePen is an unsavoury leader in the rightful defence of a great culture under siege. Frenchmen proclaim to the World the importance of their impact on history, while suffering extreme paranoia at home about the loss of greatness. Inflammatory mosque tirades on tv have sent the French to the barriers again,
and Marine LePen fiercely rises to the occasion, exploiting terrorist attacks for her gain and political polarisation. Bringing back the franc and dissolving the EU are worthy of discussion here, but most French are repulsed by racism/nativism. For the momeht they'll allow Macron's Lindsay-esque hope trump hate, but the resentment will continue to simmer and the flinty LePen will surly fan the flames.
and Marine LePen fiercely rises to the occasion, exploiting terrorist attacks for her gain and political polarisation. Bringing back the franc and dissolving the EU are worthy of discussion here, but most French are repulsed by racism/nativism. For the momeht they'll allow Macron's Lindsay-esque hope trump hate, but the resentment will continue to simmer and the flinty LePen will surly fan the flames.
2
Going back 45 years now, The FN party of the right has elicited warnings, that I've considered reasoned and that's been enough. I do feel a certain powerlessness experienced by individuals is not always merely looking for someone to blame, but a genuine cry, something that in the course of human events wants fuller legitimate expression n'import quoi.
1
All the coastal Feminists who told me to vote for Hedge Fund Hilary because of her gender alone are now enthusiastically lining up behind Le Pen.
Marine could be the first woman to lead France since Joan of Arc.
Marine could be the first woman to lead France since Joan of Arc.
2
"There is no American equivalent to the epic disaster of the euro, a form of German imperialism with the struggling parts of Europe as its subjects."
This completely ignores the origin of the euro. The euro was pushed by France, not by Germany. Indeed, Germans were extremely reluctant to let go of the D-Mark for a presumably (as born out by subsequent events) softer currency. Germany ultimately accepted the euro only because this was made a condition for the approval of reunification.
So how could the euro possibly be a "form of German imperialism"?
This completely ignores the origin of the euro. The euro was pushed by France, not by Germany. Indeed, Germans were extremely reluctant to let go of the D-Mark for a presumably (as born out by subsequent events) softer currency. Germany ultimately accepted the euro only because this was made a condition for the approval of reunification.
So how could the euro possibly be a "form of German imperialism"?
6
The Euro is a disaster born of the good intentions of Kohl, Mitterand, and Thatcher. They were trying to mitigate the imbalance of Euope when Germany would become a country of 90 million as opposed to the roughly 60 million ofI Italy, the UK and France. Didn't work, did it?
3
No.
But thank you for asking the question so simply.
But thank you for asking the question so simply.
8
"To begin with, nobody seriously doubts Le Pen’s competence, her command of policy, her ability to serve as president without turning the office into a reality-TV thunderdome."
Her policies are racist and destabilizing and could lead to autocracy and world war. So yes, I seriously doubt her competence and command of policy AND her ability to serve as president without France turning into a problem for all of Europe and the world. At some point policy IS personality.
Her policies are racist and destabilizing and could lead to autocracy and world war. So yes, I seriously doubt her competence and command of policy AND her ability to serve as president without France turning into a problem for all of Europe and the world. At some point policy IS personality.
5
So, how does a policy to protect the interests of French people lead to world war? The French are not a particularly warlike people, it seems to me. They aren't aggressive in that particular way, generally preferring to enjoy life. So I really don't get your point. Again, why do you wish to obligate countries to accept millions of non citizens into their country, at a cost to their own citizens? Why? Canadians are not similarly obligated. Neither are the Chinese, the Japanese, the Indians, the New Zealanders. Why foist this onto the French whether they welcome it or not?
2
Ross Douthat is a sophisticated and interesting conservative when he writes about subjects he actually knows something about. Not the case for this article, which simply regurgitates simplistic prejudices of the anti-European right in the UK and the US. There is no mass immigration into France - what we are seeing are the effect of mass migration a generation ago, which was the consequence of the French colonial empire. There is no Euro disaster on account of German imperialism - actually, in France without the Euro, the consequences of the financial market crisis (created by US style hubris about the virtues of unfettered capitalism driven by unregulated banks) would arguably be far higher, as France still borrows today at historically low rates.
It's when you don't really know what you are talking about, your prejudices and gut preferences show. I prefer the sophisticated Douthat for insights into the conservative mind - I'd prefer he write about stuff he knows about (including the Roman Catholic Church for instance), and leave the right-wing pontificating to others.
It's when you don't really know what you are talking about, your prejudices and gut preferences show. I prefer the sophisticated Douthat for insights into the conservative mind - I'd prefer he write about stuff he knows about (including the Roman Catholic Church for instance), and leave the right-wing pontificating to others.
9
Right. The EU and IMF have been just great for Greece, too. And I'm thinking Mr. Douthat is more on target than you, think. Otherwise Le Pen would not be as popular as she is.
2
Douthat states that French government has been engaged in "an experiment in mass immigration that has changed French society faster than integration can do its necessary work." This reflects Western cultural arrogance that Muslims who support sharia will just fade away, assimilating into largely secular society. This is the "necessary work" of integration. After 1400 years of Islamic expansion, you would think that people might realize that support for sharia is not going to fade away. Look up the 1990 "Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam" if you doubt this, and note that 45 dominantly Islamic countries signed this document.
4
Le Pen is to France what Trump is to the US.
How's Trump working out so far?
What has he actually delivered? His one and only signed legislation in his first 100 days was to make it easier for mental patients to get their hands on guns.
How's Trump working out so far?
What has he actually delivered? His one and only signed legislation in his first 100 days was to make it easier for mental patients to get their hands on guns.
5
Has anyone taken the time to look at Ms. Le Pen's website? I have. There is a '144 Commitments for France' points list pertaining to her goals. If you read them you will be very surprised how good most of these points are. Nothing like Trump. If we'd this sort of, almost left of center, quality of goals here during the last election, we would have elected her hands down. Read it.
www.marine2017.fr
www.marine2017.fr
5
Read Ms. Le Pen's proposed ''144 Commitments for France'' on her website.
I have and she sounds more left of center in her ideas. If we'd someone offering up a similar agenda in our last election we would have elected them in a heartbeat. Why hasn't the NYT discussed her 144 Commitments?
I have and she sounds more left of center in her ideas. If we'd someone offering up a similar agenda in our last election we would have elected them in a heartbeat. Why hasn't the NYT discussed her 144 Commitments?
5
Are you serious?!?!?! As much as I enjoy reading the NYT, though I'm French and living in France, I've noticed several times their articles on France or French politics are totally besides the point. But this one really beats them all!
14
So many of your columns are problematic for the same reason this one is. Considering your resume, I have to assume you're a smart guy, which leads me to conclude that you know the issues are complicated and yet you cravenly misrepresent the situation in order to bolster (or in some cases just manufacture) your argument.
You completely misrepresent Marine Le Pen's nature - she has made many statements, on tape, that are egregiously racist and xenophobic. You misrepresent the nature and origins of the EU and the Euro by stating as fact things that are only your opinion. And you compare current politics and politicians to De Gaulle, for goodness sake! A man who died in 1970! if the best that you can say about a party's policies today is "De Gaulle said that stuff too!" without really making it clear just how long ago he said that, then you're being irresponsible, duplicitous, or disrespectful - take your pick.
You completely misrepresent Marine Le Pen's nature - she has made many statements, on tape, that are egregiously racist and xenophobic. You misrepresent the nature and origins of the EU and the Euro by stating as fact things that are only your opinion. And you compare current politics and politicians to De Gaulle, for goodness sake! A man who died in 1970! if the best that you can say about a party's policies today is "De Gaulle said that stuff too!" without really making it clear just how long ago he said that, then you're being irresponsible, duplicitous, or disrespectful - take your pick.
7
"There is no American equivalent to the epic disaster of the euro, a form of German imperialism with the struggling parts of Europe as its subjects."
Bravo! Well said. The Germans need to go back to their own currency and leave the rest of Europe alone.
Bravo! Well said. The Germans need to go back to their own currency and leave the rest of Europe alone.
2
What absolute nonsense! If I read that correctly, xenophobia and demagoguery are unacceptable traits in political figures unless the individual is critical of the Euro, can string a sentence together and is Catholic.
7
The answer to this question is No.
8
It is shocking to read Douthat making a case for Le Pen. I read Douthat to get stimulated by different opinions from mine, but this column is way over the top in extremism. I will never be able to take seriously his thoughts again. Le Pen is contemporary fascism. If Douthat can't see that, it means he has too much sympathy for that political approach. And that makes him an extremist.
13
The problem with the populists is that of their sense of entitlement, less than their suffering, which is far less than the suffering of their ancestors. They expect the world order to maintain all the benefits of liberal democracy without really understanding the intertwined complexities of that. And within that order they seek to gain the status of victimhood as a means of affirmative action for their ethnic group, as they have seen modeled (with varying degrees of effect) in the case of other ethnicities. Is it possible to give them what they want without rocking the post-WW II security system?
3
You are from Reno? I suspect that you are an individual not afraid to draw for an inside straight. Maybe it can happen. If I am reading your comment correctly, you are also describing the mentality that made Donald Trump President.
1
As an American citizen living in France I can tell you that I am shocked to hear this argumentation coming from the NYTimes. I've felt for several months that the coverage of french politics often side skates the real issues of political discussions at hand but this article takes the cake.
LePen's so called purging of the party has not been an actual purge it has been more a publicity campaign to make the old positions seem more palatable by using less violent discourse with the same meaning as her father.
Her anti-immigration platform is poorly concealed islamaphobia and plays on peoples' fears of 'an arab/muslim invasion' (confusing the two as she often does). Her argument that the Muslim population in France will just disappear if we close the borders is a straw man argument that is used to argue against freedom of expression and religion and to continue the domination of the Catholic culture here. She is barely laique and uses this argument when it suits her only to turn around and argue that France should go back to its 'traditions.' While the Republican party has courted some of her supporters in the past it is a huge stretch to say that her discourse has become mainstream.
This doesn't even touch the argument that France would be better off without the euro and doesn't mention that she has recently abandoned this position A new french franc would be catastrophic for France and the population knows it.
LePen's so called purging of the party has not been an actual purge it has been more a publicity campaign to make the old positions seem more palatable by using less violent discourse with the same meaning as her father.
Her anti-immigration platform is poorly concealed islamaphobia and plays on peoples' fears of 'an arab/muslim invasion' (confusing the two as she often does). Her argument that the Muslim population in France will just disappear if we close the borders is a straw man argument that is used to argue against freedom of expression and religion and to continue the domination of the Catholic culture here. She is barely laique and uses this argument when it suits her only to turn around and argue that France should go back to its 'traditions.' While the Republican party has courted some of her supporters in the past it is a huge stretch to say that her discourse has become mainstream.
This doesn't even touch the argument that France would be better off without the euro and doesn't mention that she has recently abandoned this position A new french franc would be catastrophic for France and the population knows it.
5
I've been waiting for someone to offer an alternative to the mainstream media's knee-jerk aversion to Le Pen. Douthat has done a pretty good job of it. Every country has a right to its individuality and traditional cultural heritage, and therefore a right to control immigration across its borders. You can call it "nativism" or "nationalism" but maybe it is just common sense, like your right to lock the doors of your house.
4
Sounds like an argument one might have heard in another European country, in 1933.
11
No.
(That was easy.)
(That was easy.)
3
"no equivalent of the domestic terror threat, the rise of Islamist anti-Semitism, the immigrant enclaves as worlds unto themselves."
I wonder which version of the USA Douthat lives in that allows him to write this. We have our own domestic terror threat here, largely driven by extremist Christianists often with white supremacists associations. Has he already forgotten Pulse in Orlando? The Charleston church shooting? And yes, there are even occasional attacks by people with Islamist sympathies such as San Bernadino.
The USA may not have growing "Islamist anti-semitism" (though it isn't clear to me that Europe or France has this problem either). but we certainly have anti-semitism and anti-islamic sentiments that our recently elected president has played on to his own benefit. Oh, silly me, anti-hispanic sentiment too.
"Immigrant enclaves unto themselves" have been a feature of American life for more than a century. They have also been a feature of French life ever since it became a colonial-imperial power with admitted obligations towards its colonies.
France would be better off without the euro? For all of the issues with a single currency without political federalism, the Euro introduced an unparalleled era of easy commerce in Europe. Perhaps Douthat is too young or was insufficiently aware of the hassles of doing business across Europe before the Euro came into being. Greece may have suffered under the Euro, but France has benefited in many ways.
I wonder which version of the USA Douthat lives in that allows him to write this. We have our own domestic terror threat here, largely driven by extremist Christianists often with white supremacists associations. Has he already forgotten Pulse in Orlando? The Charleston church shooting? And yes, there are even occasional attacks by people with Islamist sympathies such as San Bernadino.
The USA may not have growing "Islamist anti-semitism" (though it isn't clear to me that Europe or France has this problem either). but we certainly have anti-semitism and anti-islamic sentiments that our recently elected president has played on to his own benefit. Oh, silly me, anti-hispanic sentiment too.
"Immigrant enclaves unto themselves" have been a feature of American life for more than a century. They have also been a feature of French life ever since it became a colonial-imperial power with admitted obligations towards its colonies.
France would be better off without the euro? For all of the issues with a single currency without political federalism, the Euro introduced an unparalleled era of easy commerce in Europe. Perhaps Douthat is too young or was insufficiently aware of the hassles of doing business across Europe before the Euro came into being. Greece may have suffered under the Euro, but France has benefited in many ways.
5
Some "anti-fascists" should look at the mirror.
The fascists of the future will be called anti-fascists.
Whether Churchill said it or not, it has tuned out true.
No one is asking itself "why all these - called far right fascists- guys are gaining power? Do people agree with them in something?"
Why the problems - like illegal immigration- that politicians of that orientation take advantage of, cannot be solved by someone else?
They can't hear the voices of the people?
They just don't care?
Do we trust democracy ONLY when we agree with the result?
The fascists of the future will be called anti-fascists.
Whether Churchill said it or not, it has tuned out true.
No one is asking itself "why all these - called far right fascists- guys are gaining power? Do people agree with them in something?"
Why the problems - like illegal immigration- that politicians of that orientation take advantage of, cannot be solved by someone else?
They can't hear the voices of the people?
They just don't care?
Do we trust democracy ONLY when we agree with the result?
2
I have to applaud the author for refusing to follow the PC line and instead sticking to the facts, however unpalatable they may be. The facts of the situation in France are as stated here. Macron is probably going to win, but he will hardly be much of an improvement over Hollande, who was a disaster. I'm not saying that Le Pen is the answer. But France keeps trying to square the circle when it comes to the economy and the issue of six million or more unassimilated Muslims. These are bombs that no current French politician can defuse.
1
So France has the choice between an Ultra Right Woman or an economist who married an already married a 25 year older woman with kids. Meanwhile the UK fell of a cliff and is now scared of Scotland, Germany instigated the impossible blending of some two million Middle East immigrants all over Europe committing out of proportion crimes, and all of Europe stood silent when Turkey turned into a dictatorship. Obviously Le Pen will win she is the least of two evils - in times of panic and crisis we all grasp for straws.
2
Douthat's logic displays what has become so disturbing in the contemporary environment -- the normalization of bigotry and demagoguery. It also displays no more than the shallowest knowledge of the eurozone and the European Union. So, no, Douthat, there is no case for Le Pen and her brand of hate.
2
Simple and only answer despite all what you have present is NO.
4
De Gaulle is a figure of the past that does not belong in the intricacies of the 21st century global climate. French people are not trying to "make [France] great again". Using this rhetoric is totally misleading.
Also, since when is the strong Euro a failing currency? Do your research!!
Also, since when is the strong Euro a failing currency? Do your research!!
2
Another column that paints a lacquer of white paint over something truly frightening. But Douthat also needs to get his historical facts straight: 2) Marine disowned her father, not the other way around; 2) De Gaulle DID support political integration, as long as it was under French terms; 3) The fact that conservative parties echoes her Islamophobia is a reflection of how powerful her message is and how they moved to the Right, not the other way around. 4) She is not just committed to leaving the Euro, but the European Union as well, destroying over 50 years of European integration that helped prevent another intra-European war! These are not alternative facts, and they do not support your obsequious column's argument.
4
NO, no case that makes any sense.
The problem is the labeling. Call someone extreme right of left and he/she is doomed. Being a sceptic about the compatibility or Islam with western values is called 'islamophobic'. So no arguing anymore because that's supporting racism and per definition extreme right. A lot of good arguments and ideas are tossed overboard that way. At least this op-ed is giving arguments in stead of scolding. Something I can't say about a lot of the comments on this op-ed.
3
This was a courageous article to write for the NY Times. Micron is indeed callow. Le Pen is not the devil, although she evidently appears as such to the vast majority who commented on this article.
3
Le Pen represents much of what the French really are. Her opposition represents much of what the French think and espouse they are. Traditional French politicians (where lobbyists are the politicians, as is endemic corruption) may well reflect French mores and culture, but Le Pen really represents what France wants, and says behind closed doors among people they trust. A very large part of is this is the desire for an all-white, Islam-free France that enjoys the power it once did in its African colonies without having to deal with the British, the Dutch, and the Germans.
Who wins? I suspect, this time, it is the real France - not what they have publicly espoused for a while.
Cheers France.
Kalidan
Who wins? I suspect, this time, it is the real France - not what they have publicly espoused for a while.
Cheers France.
Kalidan
Some people have written that this second round face-off between Marine Le Pen and Manuel Macron has prompted Sigmund Freud to speak out and call the election Oedipal: the one who killed her father against the one that married his mother
5
This is beyond appalling. The breakup of Europe, arguably the single greatest contribution to world peace over the last sixty years is not a matter of left and right but right and wrong, war and peace. And if Le Pen was so far beyond Vichy she would not surround herself with so many people who are so patently anti-semitic; she would not need to keep cleaning out the stables. The problem in France is not too many recent migrants but how the French treated their colonial subjects and how they have long treated those of their descendants who have been in the country for generations, that is for decades. The brown and black among them have been systematically denied their place in French society by Le Pen supporters, some of whom still defend France's role in places like Algeria, as well as in sending Jews to their deaths. And Le Pen's economic policies are a lot worse than the euro . . . .
6
Of course there is a case for Marine Le Pen. She is not different from many of the elected heads of state since abolition of the French constitutional monarchy in 1792 and the beheading of Louis XVI, a faithful US ally in the War of Independence betrayed by the US and left with his family in the hands of the Jacobins.
In the current presidential campaign, the racist and xenophobic right extremist is running against a soft former member of "Capitalist Bankers Without Frontiers". The French law does not allow write-in votes, so that the irregular swings from the right to the center and to the left will continue to destabilize the Republic One and Indivisible.
In the current presidential campaign, the racist and xenophobic right extremist is running against a soft former member of "Capitalist Bankers Without Frontiers". The French law does not allow write-in votes, so that the irregular swings from the right to the center and to the left will continue to destabilize the Republic One and Indivisible.
Ross once again shows his complete ignorance of European history, politics, economics and culture.
He also seems to know nothing about how the EU evolved from the Coal and Steel Community in 1952, nor how the EC functions to ensure the interest of smaller states are taken into to account in the formation of policies and the enactment of legislation.
The EU and the Euro actually represent one to the greatest peace and prosperity achievements in human history as well as a massive triumph over economic depression, oligarchy, fascism, communism, depravity, hatred, war, murder and destruction.
On my "peace" contention, tell me Ross how many millions of Europeans were killed and maimed in the wars of the first half of the 20th century (i.e., pre the ECSC, EEC and EU) vs. the zero number since the end of WWII. On my "prosperity" contention, here are the stunning growth of GDP per capita in France, Germany and the U.K. since the 1950s:
http://www.edmundconway.com/2015/02/the-uk-germany-and-france-gdp-over-h...
He also seems to know nothing about how the EU evolved from the Coal and Steel Community in 1952, nor how the EC functions to ensure the interest of smaller states are taken into to account in the formation of policies and the enactment of legislation.
The EU and the Euro actually represent one to the greatest peace and prosperity achievements in human history as well as a massive triumph over economic depression, oligarchy, fascism, communism, depravity, hatred, war, murder and destruction.
On my "peace" contention, tell me Ross how many millions of Europeans were killed and maimed in the wars of the first half of the 20th century (i.e., pre the ECSC, EEC and EU) vs. the zero number since the end of WWII. On my "prosperity" contention, here are the stunning growth of GDP per capita in France, Germany and the U.K. since the 1950s:
http://www.edmundconway.com/2015/02/the-uk-germany-and-france-gdp-over-h...
7
@ Glen Macdonald
What makes you think that all the acronymic organizations in Europe prevented wars after 1945? In fact, this is not correct: the civil wars in Greece and former Yugoslavia, the Soviet invasions of Hungary and Czechoslovakia, and the invasion of the Principality of Monaco once threatened by De Gaulle.
The European Union is a fiction. No ruler from Charlemagne through Napoléon to Hitler and Stalin ever succeeded in unifying the E`uropen Tower of Babel.
What makes you think that all the acronymic organizations in Europe prevented wars after 1945? In fact, this is not correct: the civil wars in Greece and former Yugoslavia, the Soviet invasions of Hungary and Czechoslovakia, and the invasion of the Principality of Monaco once threatened by De Gaulle.
The European Union is a fiction. No ruler from Charlemagne through Napoléon to Hitler and Stalin ever succeeded in unifying the E`uropen Tower of Babel.
@Tuvw. You prove my point. Charlemagne, Napoleon and Hitler tried to unite European under their own autocratic banners by the force of war. The EU and the EEC before it was based on cooperation and mutual respect. Now tell me what wars have taken place on European soil since the ECSC was formed follow the Treaties of Rome of the late 1940s?
1
"favored financial interests over ordinary citizens."
Seems to be fine and dandy for the GOP to favor plutocrats over everyone else here in the USA, though. Why is that? American exceptionalism?
Seems to be fine and dandy for the GOP to favor plutocrats over everyone else here in the USA, though. Why is that? American exceptionalism?
2
Hotel bookings by Japanese tourists are down 56% in France. Thousands of small restaurants close each year. Immigrants set fires to cars to drive property values down so their cousins can move in.
Re-arrange deck chairs if you must. But how many commenters here visit Muslim countries, stay in Muslim hotels, and eat local food on vacation? My guess? None.
Re-arrange deck chairs if you must. But how many commenters here visit Muslim countries, stay in Muslim hotels, and eat local food on vacation? My guess? None.
7
We wouldn't have Le Pen if we didn't have the Syrian refugees.
And we wouldn't have the Syrian refugees if we hadn't invaded Iraq.
And while we were busy in Iraq, North Korea detonated its first nuclear bomb in 2006.
And we wouldn't have the Syrian refugees if we hadn't invaded Iraq.
And while we were busy in Iraq, North Korea detonated its first nuclear bomb in 2006.
2
I think the rise of the National Front in France pre-dated the arrival of Syrian refugees in Europe.
2
Funny that there has been no support from feminists about Le Pen's attempt to be the first female leader of France.
6
We feminists are not fools nor are we ahistorical. Many of us even rejected Hillary to support Bernie Sanders, because we knew voting for someone just because of her sex makes us complicit in whatever politics that person supports. Not "funny" at all. Just tuned in to the voices of history . . .
@ Navigator
Ségolène Royal was the first woman candidate in 2012.
Ségolène Royal was the first woman candidate in 2012.
3
Could be that the world is waking up, and that is certainly cause for a leap into the unknown.
3
"Is there a case for Le Pen?"
No, absolutely not.
No, absolutely not.
7
What all this commentary and the column itself ignores is the wider context.
A few have mentioned that the organization Douthat dismisses, was created at the end of the most recent round of Europe's On-going War. The years since 1946 are longest period of peace since the end of the 18th century.
It is utter folly to discard the instrument of that peace, however in need of maintenance.
Further, ask yourself who benefits from the debased public debates that have produced Brexit, Trump and now the threat of Le Pen? Is there anybody who has been caught with their Russian thumb in the pie, somebody who has been identified as putting money into right wing partys and causes, who was outed by all 17 US intelligence agencies as having interfered in our election? Anyone who would gladly benefit from Europe's return to its faction riven status?
A few have mentioned that the organization Douthat dismisses, was created at the end of the most recent round of Europe's On-going War. The years since 1946 are longest period of peace since the end of the 18th century.
It is utter folly to discard the instrument of that peace, however in need of maintenance.
Further, ask yourself who benefits from the debased public debates that have produced Brexit, Trump and now the threat of Le Pen? Is there anybody who has been caught with their Russian thumb in the pie, somebody who has been identified as putting money into right wing partys and causes, who was outed by all 17 US intelligence agencies as having interfered in our election? Anyone who would gladly benefit from Europe's return to its faction riven status?
7
Look for a large number of Times readers claim they will boycott the paper for allowing this article to be published. Just like the recent Bret Stephens on climate change.
Actually, nobody is boycotting. And it's nice to read a differing (although not supporting) view of climate change and Le Pen.
Actually, nobody is boycotting. And it's nice to read a differing (although not supporting) view of climate change and Le Pen.
2
Neville Chamberlain made the same assumptions about a certain German leader whose "competence..command of policy..and ability to serve as president" were never in doubt. I believe they called that appeasement at the time.
4
Le Pen is a modern day Joan of Arc who is determined to free France from the EU bureaucrats. The French people have a choice either to make either France a great nation or a province of Germany.
2
Though I am certainly very much a 60s liberal, I'm quite pleased to see Ross take on a series of very difficult issues... as he has in his last dozen or so editorials. He is willing to forgo process of just pushing the ideological buttons of New York Times readers - as so many of his contemporaries do - and try and find unexplored facets of the issues he addresses. This means taking risks in not adhering closely to ideological boundaries, but rather going off into the weeds of uncertainty.
Worldwide, in this cauldron of booming populations, the tyrrany of globalization, climate destabilization and mass migration, peoples are responding the way they always have: seek support and empowerment in your tribe... whether you be French, Japanese, Israeli, Appalachian or a host of others.
Le Pen is a manifestation of this, though much more consistent and competent one then Trump. It does indeed look as though the boy from Amiens will win, but with no political organization within the Chambre des Deputes, Macron's ability to govern would look to be well beyond his nascent skills.
Le Pen will lose, but it will not be the end of her movement or those like hers.
Worldwide, in this cauldron of booming populations, the tyrrany of globalization, climate destabilization and mass migration, peoples are responding the way they always have: seek support and empowerment in your tribe... whether you be French, Japanese, Israeli, Appalachian or a host of others.
Le Pen is a manifestation of this, though much more consistent and competent one then Trump. It does indeed look as though the boy from Amiens will win, but with no political organization within the Chambre des Deputes, Macron's ability to govern would look to be well beyond his nascent skills.
Le Pen will lose, but it will not be the end of her movement or those like hers.
3
Yes the Euro has been an epic blunder. But not the European Union and not NATO.?A policy of "France First" will lead in a straight line to "Germany First." We know how well that had worked in the 20th Century.
2
The case for Ms. Le Pen is more straight-forward; her platform.
The EU has turned into a mean and anti-democratic organization, focused on gaining ever more power and enriching the .1%. What was originally meant as a way to restrain the ambitions of any one member nation has turned into a dangerous power base for the Germans. After what the EU did to Greece, and is still doing, dumping the Euro and going back to a national currency structure is just good self-defense. (If the Greeks had been free to manipulate their own currency they could have avoided the debt slavery they will suffer for another generation, at least.)
The open borders mean that the nation has no control over immigration. That might sound wonderful to some people but a large segment of the voting populace just doesn't agree.
The French are rightly pleased with the caring state they have created for themselves. Again, a large segment of the voting populace doesn't want to give that away at the behest of the bureaucracy in Brussels, regardless of how expensive their suits are.
As a life-long (American) liberal it seems to me that the French people have a democratic right to decide their own fate.
The EU has turned into a mean and anti-democratic organization, focused on gaining ever more power and enriching the .1%. What was originally meant as a way to restrain the ambitions of any one member nation has turned into a dangerous power base for the Germans. After what the EU did to Greece, and is still doing, dumping the Euro and going back to a national currency structure is just good self-defense. (If the Greeks had been free to manipulate their own currency they could have avoided the debt slavery they will suffer for another generation, at least.)
The open borders mean that the nation has no control over immigration. That might sound wonderful to some people but a large segment of the voting populace just doesn't agree.
The French are rightly pleased with the caring state they have created for themselves. Again, a large segment of the voting populace doesn't want to give that away at the behest of the bureaucracy in Brussels, regardless of how expensive their suits are.
As a life-long (American) liberal it seems to me that the French people have a democratic right to decide their own fate.
7
Small point perhaps: France imposed the Euro on Germany as a condition of France's consent to German reunification in 1991.
6
The right wing has now found the golden ticket to winning elections, nationalism/anti-illegal immigration. While the left wing simply decries it as racism/xenophophia, there is overwhelming consensus throughout these countries to maintain their respective cultures, and at the very least curb illegal immigration. The left is fighting tooth and nail against the wishes of the majority population in democratic countries and wondering why they are losing ground. I lean strongly left but they will continue to lose elections with their current open borders/illegal immigration support. For most, it trumps all other issues, even economic, as seen with brexit.
7
“Anderson Cooper: Should Muslim people be allowed to wear headscarves?
Marine Le Pen (translation): No. I’m opposed to wearing headscarves in public places. That’s not France. There’s something I just don’t understand: the people who come to France, why would they want to change France, to live in France the same way they lived back home?
It’s not just headscarves. Le Pen says she would ban yarmulkes in public, any conspicuous symbol of religious belief.
Anderson Cooper: Would a Sikh person allowed to be (SIC) wear a turban?
Marine Le Pen (translation): No, not in public. We don’t have a lot of Sikhs in France. We’ve got some. But we don’t really hear much from them or about them. Which is good news.”
The “which is good news” is telling. Minorities and protesters are forewarned in case of dissent.
Perhaps as a way to illustrate her belief in the need to abide by local custom, she refused to wear a headscarf during a visit in Lebanon to meet with the grand mufti.
And please don't take this as just another expression of French secularism. No need to waste time trying to differentiate MLP from the ordinary fascists her party gathers and represents.
Marine Le Pen (translation): No. I’m opposed to wearing headscarves in public places. That’s not France. There’s something I just don’t understand: the people who come to France, why would they want to change France, to live in France the same way they lived back home?
It’s not just headscarves. Le Pen says she would ban yarmulkes in public, any conspicuous symbol of religious belief.
Anderson Cooper: Would a Sikh person allowed to be (SIC) wear a turban?
Marine Le Pen (translation): No, not in public. We don’t have a lot of Sikhs in France. We’ve got some. But we don’t really hear much from them or about them. Which is good news.”
The “which is good news” is telling. Minorities and protesters are forewarned in case of dissent.
Perhaps as a way to illustrate her belief in the need to abide by local custom, she refused to wear a headscarf during a visit in Lebanon to meet with the grand mufti.
And please don't take this as just another expression of French secularism. No need to waste time trying to differentiate MLP from the ordinary fascists her party gathers and represents.
6
No, there is not a case for Ms. Le Pen. There, that's settled.
8
The Times makes a serious mistake by referring to the National Front as "right wing populism." Populism is a movement that emerged in the US during the later part of the 19th century. It was composed of small farmers and industrial workers who shared a common opposition to the exploration by the bankers and finance class of the Guilded Age.
Their political movement brought a decidedly working class dynamic to politics and in many areas merged with the growing socialist movements of its day. They were all decidedly anti-capitalist and experimented successfully with collective and cooperative movements like the Grange in the south and even the state bank which still exits in North Dakota.
The National Front is not a populist movement. It is a mass based neo-facist movement that has morphed into a political party. Like their counterpart in 1920's Europe they are pro-capitalist and vehemently nationalistic. For them the state must be used not as a vehicle for the working class, but as a means to purify the state, to weed out the elements that threaten 'French culture'.
Like their National Socialist counterpart in 1930's Germany they will give lip service to advancing workers interests, but only as part of a larger nationalistic agenda.
So why does the media insist on characterizing populism as any political movement that has some measure of mass base support? Probably because we don't want to look at our own neo-facist movements right here in America.
Their political movement brought a decidedly working class dynamic to politics and in many areas merged with the growing socialist movements of its day. They were all decidedly anti-capitalist and experimented successfully with collective and cooperative movements like the Grange in the south and even the state bank which still exits in North Dakota.
The National Front is not a populist movement. It is a mass based neo-facist movement that has morphed into a political party. Like their counterpart in 1920's Europe they are pro-capitalist and vehemently nationalistic. For them the state must be used not as a vehicle for the working class, but as a means to purify the state, to weed out the elements that threaten 'French culture'.
Like their National Socialist counterpart in 1930's Germany they will give lip service to advancing workers interests, but only as part of a larger nationalistic agenda.
So why does the media insist on characterizing populism as any political movement that has some measure of mass base support? Probably because we don't want to look at our own neo-facist movements right here in America.
10
Is there "a case" for Le Pen?
In minds capable of twisted thinking, obsessed in a past that never existed, and when it did was socially inequitable.
Is there a case for Le Pen among those concerned with justice, equity, fraternity and liberty?
No.
In minds capable of twisted thinking, obsessed in a past that never existed, and when it did was socially inequitable.
Is there a case for Le Pen among those concerned with justice, equity, fraternity and liberty?
No.
20
At the least, Marine Le Pen is a known quantity. She has been on the political scene for decades. Her rival, on the other hand is largely unknown to the general public. He remains a "man of mystery' or possibly, a "Manchurian Candidate" -- the French public does not have good choices here. I for one feel that Macron is the candidate of international bankers and cartels. Drawing rabbits out of hats is the stuff of magic shows -- not reality. Who is supporting him and why is an unanswered question. LePen, on the other hand may be the true candidate of a vocal minority only,. I think the degree of polarization these two individuals represent is a major problem. I see that LePen has displayed a small but significant degree of flexibility -- Macron, on the other hand, appears nebulous.
7
Marine Le Pen stands for everything many French despise--racism, anti-antisemitism, etc. And pulling out of the common market would be disastrous not just for Europe but especially for France.
3
I think people are supporting Macron because they see Le Pen as a worse choice. That got Trump elected, and it might work for Le Pen.
1
And what does Macron stand for? Who and what is he really?
In France, as elsewhere, the voting public will decide. They will make their choice based on what specious arguments they believe, on whose utterings most address their mostly exaggerated fears and loathings, and on how they feel on the day.
Whether that will be Ms. Le Pen, opportunistic heiress to the vile movement that her father created and that she, to her credit has purged of its most repugnant element (including her dear old dad) or Mr. Macron, a man who has not yet done anything of note other than successfully pass the ENA (a stellar achievement it must be said, but hardly one that gives him a link to the real concerns of the French people) and be a middling economy minister in Hollande's government, is anybody's guess.
It is, I have begun to understand, futile to hope or expect that the voters will be swayed in any significant manner by reason or a considered analysis of the issues and the options to address these, as presented by the candidates.
Let's just wait for the result on the day. The consequences will be dire no matter who wins. Because, in June there is a new election, and this one will determine how the Assemblée Nationale, the legislative branch, will present itself. It is the combination of President and Assembly that will need to find answers for France's very real woes and as things stand, that will be easier said than done.
Whether that will be Ms. Le Pen, opportunistic heiress to the vile movement that her father created and that she, to her credit has purged of its most repugnant element (including her dear old dad) or Mr. Macron, a man who has not yet done anything of note other than successfully pass the ENA (a stellar achievement it must be said, but hardly one that gives him a link to the real concerns of the French people) and be a middling economy minister in Hollande's government, is anybody's guess.
It is, I have begun to understand, futile to hope or expect that the voters will be swayed in any significant manner by reason or a considered analysis of the issues and the options to address these, as presented by the candidates.
Let's just wait for the result on the day. The consequences will be dire no matter who wins. Because, in June there is a new election, and this one will determine how the Assemblée Nationale, the legislative branch, will present itself. It is the combination of President and Assembly that will need to find answers for France's very real woes and as things stand, that will be easier said than done.
4
Marine Le Pen's rise in France is only partly due to unrest and unhappiness and a desire to go back to the "good old days". That part of the attraction sounds very much like the unrest and unhappiness that gave us Donald Trump. As drought, famine, and terrorism force people in the rest of the world to flee their homelands, migration will grow worse. The invitation by Merkel to come to Germany was irresistible. And because there are no borders, once they arrive, this mass migrant group will affect the entire EU.
When large numbers of strangers descend on your country, don't speak your language, eat different foods, practice a different religion, and refuse to adopt your country's culture and style of dress, you may be bewildered and frightened and vote for Le Pen. Or you may vote for Donald Trump. We live in a time of unrest and unhappiness, and it will only change when we address the basic problem. The world is over-populated for the amount of resources, and until that problem is solved, things will get worse (world-wide).
When large numbers of strangers descend on your country, don't speak your language, eat different foods, practice a different religion, and refuse to adopt your country's culture and style of dress, you may be bewildered and frightened and vote for Le Pen. Or you may vote for Donald Trump. We live in a time of unrest and unhappiness, and it will only change when we address the basic problem. The world is over-populated for the amount of resources, and until that problem is solved, things will get worse (world-wide).
6
CAL GAL....yes, the world is over populated and the solution for this explosive issue is no where in sight.
Ironically, France has the highest fertility rate in Europe and is a country totally dedicated to traditional family values, day care, maternity and paternity leave, free education, national health care, etc..
This family orientation from the French is an endearing cultural trait but does run counter to the scary issue of over population and environmental pollution around the world, including France.
As a 14 year expat in France, I would not live anywhere else but, at this point in history, I believe Marine Le Pen is the right choice for president of France including her position of borders, slowed immigration, and leaving the EU.
It's time for Marine Le Pen!
Ironically, France has the highest fertility rate in Europe and is a country totally dedicated to traditional family values, day care, maternity and paternity leave, free education, national health care, etc..
This family orientation from the French is an endearing cultural trait but does run counter to the scary issue of over population and environmental pollution around the world, including France.
As a 14 year expat in France, I would not live anywhere else but, at this point in history, I believe Marine Le Pen is the right choice for president of France including her position of borders, slowed immigration, and leaving the EU.
It's time for Marine Le Pen!
So what if immigrants come? I still can't see what is wrong with that. Europe has accommodated many varied peoples -- the people that they had conquered via imperialism -- who now enjoy dual citizenship with the mother country, so-called. She not only wants to halt the refugees she wants to repeal all these dual citizenships while offering dual citizenship to Russians! I kid you not.
3
Hollande & Macron are pere et fils. As unpopular as their policies have been these last 5 years, how popular are they likely to be going forward?
The French will vote for Macron because they have no choice. But what will they do 5 years later?
The French will vote for Macron because they have no choice. But what will they do 5 years later?
5
The movements to support Brexit, Trump and Le Pen have the common engine of anti-immigrant racism driving them. Douthat discusses the trim package, hoping we won't notice the hatred.
12
I divide my time between France and the USA.
I see a kind of mental laziness on the part of many of our US journalists, who describe Le Pen as "the French Trump", or Geert Wilders as "the Dutch Trump", etc.
Yes, there are some similarities among them. But there are very major differences as well.
Le Pen strongly supports maintaining the 35 hour work week, unlike most of her rivals. She also strongly supports the social safety net. These differentiate her hugely from Trump. They are also an important reason why she feels immigration needs to be controlled much more rigorously, because France does not have the economic means to support a large immigrant population who will also need a great deal of social assistance.
Yes, there is much more to her politics than I've described above. But my point is that she is NOT the "French Trump" and it is intellectual laziness for US journalists to fall back onto that kind of trope.
I see a kind of mental laziness on the part of many of our US journalists, who describe Le Pen as "the French Trump", or Geert Wilders as "the Dutch Trump", etc.
Yes, there are some similarities among them. But there are very major differences as well.
Le Pen strongly supports maintaining the 35 hour work week, unlike most of her rivals. She also strongly supports the social safety net. These differentiate her hugely from Trump. They are also an important reason why she feels immigration needs to be controlled much more rigorously, because France does not have the economic means to support a large immigrant population who will also need a great deal of social assistance.
Yes, there is much more to her politics than I've described above. But my point is that she is NOT the "French Trump" and it is intellectual laziness for US journalists to fall back onto that kind of trope.
15
She might not be the French "Trump" but her supporters are Trump sympathizers hoping to upend the social order.
5
She extols the same rhetoric of racism and hate, so as far as that is concerned she is like trump. She will do no good for France, so the only choice (albeit not great) is Macron. Otherwise France will be in worse shape than the US and yes she is also Putin's puppet and has had her campaign financed by Russia. Many similarities to trump me thinks
They can't be bothered to look at her website and read her '144 Commitments for France'.
Le Pen's economic policies would be a disaster for France, so no, there is no case for Le Pen, no case whatsoever.
12
"Less incompetent than Trump" is not a strong enough recommendation to support the right-wing National Front. Populist backlash to the privations of the recession and the dislocations of the war in the Middle East might be predictable, but is still wrong...and you should not be aiding and abetting.
8
Marine Le Pen is cursed by her father's reputation and his permanent tainting of the National Front party.
Would that Marine had broken off completely from the Front and started a new party with a new name and a revised platform that responds to the needs of the French, particularly the young people who are burdened with high unemployment and few life opportunities.
Macron is not qualified to be president, has never been elected to office, has no real political party, and will have a difficult time forming a competent group of ministers. His economic solutions as a member of Hollande's government failed to correct the country's economy malaise and we're rejected by Hollande because the president had little faith in their usefulness.
Marine Le Pen is the only candidate who will break off from the European Union and the Euro currency. In the 14 years I've lived in France as an American expatriate, no other presidential candidate has demonstrated the ability to separate from the status quo and the establishment politics. Marine is clearly the most qualified presidential candidate.
It's time for Marine Le Pen!
Would that Marine had broken off completely from the Front and started a new party with a new name and a revised platform that responds to the needs of the French, particularly the young people who are burdened with high unemployment and few life opportunities.
Macron is not qualified to be president, has never been elected to office, has no real political party, and will have a difficult time forming a competent group of ministers. His economic solutions as a member of Hollande's government failed to correct the country's economy malaise and we're rejected by Hollande because the president had little faith in their usefulness.
Marine Le Pen is the only candidate who will break off from the European Union and the Euro currency. In the 14 years I've lived in France as an American expatriate, no other presidential candidate has demonstrated the ability to separate from the status quo and the establishment politics. Marine is clearly the most qualified presidential candidate.
It's time for Marine Le Pen!
6
Have you taken a look at what BREXIT has done for Britain lately? -- and their economy is in a much better state than that of France.
3
Yeah. Tough on the browns and blacks.
1
Douhat is proving yet again that religious conservatives can get into bed with fascism without realizing it. It's a century-old story. Many learnt their lesson. Douthat has not.
Many commentators here have eviscerated his arguments. But there are two basic positions of Le Pen he ignores: the nostalgic identitarian turn to the real France and the real French and the destructive nullity of the FN's actual policy proposals fueled by the same myth of identity that allows the 'people,' her voters, to trust that whatever the leader does (say withdrawing or not from the Euro) for instance is right simply because she says so even if it represents a 180 degree turn.
Many commentators here have eviscerated his arguments. But there are two basic positions of Le Pen he ignores: the nostalgic identitarian turn to the real France and the real French and the destructive nullity of the FN's actual policy proposals fueled by the same myth of identity that allows the 'people,' her voters, to trust that whatever the leader does (say withdrawing or not from the Euro) for instance is right simply because she says so even if it represents a 180 degree turn.
8
"Douhat is proving yet again that religious conservatives can get into bed with fascism without realizing it."
Oh I think Douthat realizes it. And loves it.
Oh I think Douthat realizes it. And loves it.
8
Who says they don't realize it?
1
It seems foolish to consider Macron a lock for the Presidency. Le Pen carries considerable gravitas and the French may finally have had enough of Internal Islamic violence and the knowledge that they are uncompetitive in the world market that they feel a serious change of leadership is not only needed, but required.
7
A balanced essay that I hope will not be dismissed out of hand because of its subject. I would push back a little on Douthat's claim that party histories matter, not to deny the claim, but to argue for perspective.
Andrew Jackson was a Democrat, but few Democrats revere the man today. Likewise, Obama was deemed to have more in common with the Republican Lincoln than any modern Republican has today. The latter party might be about to undergo yet another transformation if Trump proves enduring.
Tethering institutions to their pasts results in the NYT "slave-hunts" which continue to dog universities like Georgetown, and utterly discounts centuries of evolution and redirection. So yes, party history matters, but it is unhelpful if it fails to account for the current state of affairs.
Andrew Jackson was a Democrat, but few Democrats revere the man today. Likewise, Obama was deemed to have more in common with the Republican Lincoln than any modern Republican has today. The latter party might be about to undergo yet another transformation if Trump proves enduring.
Tethering institutions to their pasts results in the NYT "slave-hunts" which continue to dog universities like Georgetown, and utterly discounts centuries of evolution and redirection. So yes, party history matters, but it is unhelpful if it fails to account for the current state of affairs.
2
As was the case with Trump during the 2016 election campaign, media coverage of Le Pen has been excessively critical and lacking in balance. Douthat is correct that more mainstream French politicians have made similarly sharp comments about the failure of elements of that country's Muslim population to integrate with the national community. When she says it, it gets cast as Islamophobia, but when an insider like Sarkozy says it, it's straight talk. This dynamic plays out in other European countries as well: Rutke, the incumbent victor of Holland's recent election, criticised aspects of Muslim immigration throughout his electoral bid, but the media focused solely on the putative Islamophobia of his main opponent, Geert Wilders.
The media bias is even more apparent in the coverage of Le Pen's influence on the Front National. Instead of applauding her success at moderating extremist elements within her own party, this is cast as a devious ploy to pull the wool over the eyes of French voters.
Media coverage of right-wing populism in the USA and Europe has not been fair and balanced, and this failure is only contributing to the increasing ghettoisation of the media environment as conservatives flee to alternative news sources to find their information.
The media bias is even more apparent in the coverage of Le Pen's influence on the Front National. Instead of applauding her success at moderating extremist elements within her own party, this is cast as a devious ploy to pull the wool over the eyes of French voters.
Media coverage of right-wing populism in the USA and Europe has not been fair and balanced, and this failure is only contributing to the increasing ghettoisation of the media environment as conservatives flee to alternative news sources to find their information.
7
Others in this column have pointed to Douthat's problematic description of the Euro. What alarms way is the way in which he glides over Le Pen's more problematic associations and assertions. He points to Islamist anti-Semitism but omits Le Pen's own links to homegrown anti-Semitism. He supports her views on immigration without once acknowledging France's colonial past. In this scenario, the French are permitted to settle in other countries (they are called expats not immigrants). This cafeteria-style description of Le Pen paints an idyllic, non-existent France that puts the blame on outside forces as opposed to looking inward. Thus, racism is the fault of the other, not those who articulate racist views. This piecemeal logic reflects the same thinking that has given us the man who calls himself president in this country.
5
The French and British Empires created the states they are said to have colonized. They brought the natives into a global economy ruled over by European empires. And so? Reminds me of Monty Python “What have the Romans ever done for us?”
Colonialism advanced the living standards as population growth demonstrates. And in the course of de-colonization the higher populations no longer were sustainable as the old style feudalism cloaked in modern bribery and corruption reasserted itself. Maybe decolonization is the cause of the problems?
Colonialism advanced the living standards as population growth demonstrates. And in the course of de-colonization the higher populations no longer were sustainable as the old style feudalism cloaked in modern bribery and corruption reasserted itself. Maybe decolonization is the cause of the problems?
3
Ross,
When we study the Torah portion where Sodom and Gomorrah and the other evil cities are destroyed we often discuss the old legend of the cities being given one final chance. Those who believe that the cities were destroyed because of the way the cities treated strangers know well the response of the wise men of the evil cities gave in order to save their city.
The wise men of Sodom and Gomorrah gave the Le Pen response.
For those like myself the only sin that is not excusable is trying to justify the unjustifiable. Moral justification for what knows is morally wrong may be great fun for sophists but it is what has brought us today's polarized America.
When we study the Torah portion where Sodom and Gomorrah and the other evil cities are destroyed we often discuss the old legend of the cities being given one final chance. Those who believe that the cities were destroyed because of the way the cities treated strangers know well the response of the wise men of the evil cities gave in order to save their city.
The wise men of Sodom and Gomorrah gave the Le Pen response.
For those like myself the only sin that is not excusable is trying to justify the unjustifiable. Moral justification for what knows is morally wrong may be great fun for sophists but it is what has brought us today's polarized America.
5
Political Catch 22's seem to be the norm these days. Voting for the best of the worst is not optimal politics nor democracy enhancing; it is looming disaster.
2
Use tax incentives to expand the number of businesses and coronations that are substantially employee-owned., e.g., at least 40 percent pf shares. Rather than lowering taxes for all businesses to an extremely low 15 percent, use this advantage to enable businesses to structure themselves in an employee-owned model. Even non-employee investors will recognize the higher level of engagement and innovation, or focus and efficiency, that can take place with employee-based ownership. This combination will propel the economy with the pride and empowerment of private enterprise, while narrowing the wide gap of income and wealth inequality that current, owner-take all capitalism has led to. The stagnation of our economy is directly linked to the satiation of desires of the super-rich, who, rather than innovate and take real risks, merely spend their billions on lobbying and political control, to protect and lock in their ill-gotten spoils for themselves and their heirs. It will never work to simply use government to re-distribute wealth after it has been locked up in the vaults (many overseas) of the brutal rich. They obtained their wealth by countless tricks, deception, and corruption -- such brutality is in their DNA. But as new companies, employee-owned, innovate and create new wealth and prosperity, the wealth can be automatically and systematically shared in the making.
Lowest taxes for employee-owned businesses.
Lowest taxes for employee-owned businesses.
1
The dispicable Douthat is the first to utter what was an unspeakable truth: that the euro has lead to a crippling German imperialism devestating southern Europe. This is how tyrants rise to power-- by speaking the awful truth that every other powerful leader is either too ashamed or too fearful to admit. Who was the first candidate to call the Iraq War a disaster ? To admit that celebrities could grope women with impunity? And that politicians are all bought and paid for?
Let's just hope Le Pen doesn't end up in the same place Trump did
Let's just hope Le Pen doesn't end up in the same place Trump did
4
A Le Pen victory, like Trump's 2016 win, destabilizes an already destabilized world. Although Douthat doesn't advocate a Le Pen win, he demonstrates a shocking ignorance of the dangers associated with this wave of right-wing extremism; an extremism supported by Putin and his desire to re-make Europe affording Russia to pick-up the pieces. In this environment who wins? In this political milieu, and if Le Pen is victorious, then Europe becomes the playground of fascism which has been reborn albeit in a different form, but still driven by the same hates and fears first generated after World War I and continued into the 1920s and 1930s. All of which I remind Mr. Douthat contributed to the Second World War.
3
I have not read Douthat for a very long time but the topic (Le Pen) caught my attention and I was justly rewarded by this: "nobody seriously doubts Le Pen’s competence, her command of policy, her ability to serve as president without turning the office into a reality-TV thunder dome." Well, yes, many people, including me, seriously doubt her competence and command of policy in every single aspect. Just because Le Pen is more polished, smarter and harder working than Trump does NOT mean she grasps any important aspect of public policy or governing. What she does have in common with Trump is in fact that she doesn't really care about policy and is very good at getting votes.
7
Stimulating article, matched by informed reader responses. The parallels between Trump and Le Pen are indeed striking: both are demagogs, both are content to draw on strains of strains of racism and intolerance indigenous to their respective countries. Above all, both acknowledge the pain and the feelings of having been left behind by the political elites that have ruled them for decades, while responding with facile answers that are doomed to failure. Thus there is no more a case for Le Pen than there is for Trump.
4
With any politician there is often a difference between what they say and what they believe. Douthat takes a great leap of faith in believing what La Pen says although it is at variance with her background and many of her followers. Many more extreme politicians try to put a moderate glaze over their actual beliefs because they know they would never be elected if they spoke their mind. Almost immediately for instance when she handed over command to her party to her second in command he started making more extreme claims. This can't be anything new so was Le Pen simply clamping down more extremist views to get elected.
2
Hollande was elected 5 years ago on a wave of anti-Sarkozyism. There was no other reason. As soon as he was elected, the wave flattened and Hollande floundered. This in turn triggered the current political environment in France.
Today, the French are being asked to cast their votes 'against' Le Pen at all costs by the vast majority of mainstream politicians, many of whom just a few days ago were decrying Macron in sometimes extreme terms.
A recent poll suggested that the majority of the French were dissatisfied with the choice before them; this is where USA 2016 meets France 2017.
The question we should all be asking is, within the framework of our respective Democracies, what should the thoughtful voter do?
Today, the French are being asked to cast their votes 'against' Le Pen at all costs by the vast majority of mainstream politicians, many of whom just a few days ago were decrying Macron in sometimes extreme terms.
A recent poll suggested that the majority of the French were dissatisfied with the choice before them; this is where USA 2016 meets France 2017.
The question we should all be asking is, within the framework of our respective Democracies, what should the thoughtful voter do?
25
Macron is a former Rothschild banker, not at all a man of the people. LePen's National Front party is the descendant of the Nazi collaborationist government that controlled France during the Nazi occupation. It's a neo-fascist party. Neo-fascism is pro-business like fascism is, but with some post-WWII modifications designed to win over today's working class voters. Either Macron or LePen, like Trump, will impose neoliberal policies once the voters have made their choice. It is likely the end of democracy in France, and the voters will bring it on themselves.
16
You appear totally confused:
1) neo liberal is NOT neo-fascist; and Macron is neither;
2) Macron is committed to renewable energy economy with the same intensity as Bernie Sanders (neo-liberals like Hillary and the New York Times hedge and indulge in double-speak. While better than the pro-dirty fossil fuels fascists ala Putin, Le Pen, and Trump they are not the same as Sanders and Macron.)
3) Macron is the ONLY French politician to take a clear anti-homophobe position ridiculing those opposing marriage equality, both LePen and Trump, like their buddy Putin are revolting catering to homophobes; Sanders like Macron was committed to marriage equality BEFORE it was popular;
4) Trump and LePen are degenerates fanning hatred of immigrants, Macron is a towering moral figure when it comes to immigrants a lot like his American counterpart Sanders.
So smell the coffee, neither Macron nor Le Pen nor Trump are new liberals. Macron is a liberal and the other two are neo-fascists.
1) neo liberal is NOT neo-fascist; and Macron is neither;
2) Macron is committed to renewable energy economy with the same intensity as Bernie Sanders (neo-liberals like Hillary and the New York Times hedge and indulge in double-speak. While better than the pro-dirty fossil fuels fascists ala Putin, Le Pen, and Trump they are not the same as Sanders and Macron.)
3) Macron is the ONLY French politician to take a clear anti-homophobe position ridiculing those opposing marriage equality, both LePen and Trump, like their buddy Putin are revolting catering to homophobes; Sanders like Macron was committed to marriage equality BEFORE it was popular;
4) Trump and LePen are degenerates fanning hatred of immigrants, Macron is a towering moral figure when it comes to immigrants a lot like his American counterpart Sanders.
So smell the coffee, neither Macron nor Le Pen nor Trump are new liberals. Macron is a liberal and the other two are neo-fascists.
3
I live in France.
Douthat is making a facile and irresponsible conclusion to the complicated issues facing France and other EU countries. Calling attention to real political problems and critiquing current policy is not the same thing as arguing for the election of a politician who advances her dream of empowerment by exploiting the suffering of workers and rural populations through the use of false, divisive, and dangerous connections between immigration, economic malaise, and fears of cultural disempowerment.
God help all of us to rise above the fears of demagogues like Le Pen and Steven Bannon and Trump, and instead to have the courage to seek political solutions that do not demonize, but instead create intellectual and political narratives that inspire courage and openness, and that will save lives.
Douthat is making a facile and irresponsible conclusion to the complicated issues facing France and other EU countries. Calling attention to real political problems and critiquing current policy is not the same thing as arguing for the election of a politician who advances her dream of empowerment by exploiting the suffering of workers and rural populations through the use of false, divisive, and dangerous connections between immigration, economic malaise, and fears of cultural disempowerment.
God help all of us to rise above the fears of demagogues like Le Pen and Steven Bannon and Trump, and instead to have the courage to seek political solutions that do not demonize, but instead create intellectual and political narratives that inspire courage and openness, and that will save lives.
291
Thank you for your comment. I found Dohaut's piece very confusing. It was entertaining, no doubt- like an episode of Sherlock Homes on TV - but possibly as fictional.
2
"There is no American equivalent to the epic disaster of the euro, a form of German imperialism with the struggling parts of Europe as its subjects."
Absolutely, although it's France which initiated this disaster by making the euro a necessary condition for German reunification. The French calculated that a single currency would keep Britain out and allow France and Germany to run Europe as they pleased.
Only half of this calculation was correct: France now finds its hands tied whenever it wants to stimulate the economy because Germany believes that deficit spending signals moral failing - the German word for "debt" (Schuld) also means "fault", "blame", and "sin".
Once again, France is hoist by its own petard. A bit like the Maginot Line, n'est-ce pas?
Absolutely, although it's France which initiated this disaster by making the euro a necessary condition for German reunification. The French calculated that a single currency would keep Britain out and allow France and Germany to run Europe as they pleased.
Only half of this calculation was correct: France now finds its hands tied whenever it wants to stimulate the economy because Germany believes that deficit spending signals moral failing - the German word for "debt" (Schuld) also means "fault", "blame", and "sin".
Once again, France is hoist by its own petard. A bit like the Maginot Line, n'est-ce pas?
"There is no American equivalent to the epic disaster of the euro, a form of German imperialism with the struggling parts of Europe as its subjects."
Excuse me? Germany joined the euro because France made that a condition of German reunification. The French leaders were so envious of the strength of the German mark that they made its destruction their priority. German imperialism? Just because they and the other northern states are economically responsible while France and the rest of Southern Europe try to bleed their prosperity so that they can continue their indolent profligacy, besides forcing Germany and the other Nordic countries to be the only responsible, humane actors in Europe's greatest crisis since World War II—that of the millions of desperate refugees—you call them imperialistic?
Excuse me? Germany joined the euro because France made that a condition of German reunification. The French leaders were so envious of the strength of the German mark that they made its destruction their priority. German imperialism? Just because they and the other northern states are economically responsible while France and the rest of Southern Europe try to bleed their prosperity so that they can continue their indolent profligacy, besides forcing Germany and the other Nordic countries to be the only responsible, humane actors in Europe's greatest crisis since World War II—that of the millions of desperate refugees—you call them imperialistic?
23
The euro was an epic mistake born of good intentions
1
A brief walk through modern French history ought to be enough to prove that, for all of it's faults and missteps, the European Union has been one of the greatest things to happen to France, Europe and the world.
Where once bloody coups, exiles, wars and revolutions happened with breathtaking regularity we now have... some financial instability. Tweak and tinker with the European Union, blowing it up is not a wise choice.
European wars didn't stop because history ended, it's because the European Union began.
Where once bloody coups, exiles, wars and revolutions happened with breathtaking regularity we now have... some financial instability. Tweak and tinker with the European Union, blowing it up is not a wise choice.
European wars didn't stop because history ended, it's because the European Union began.
55
So what will you say when the bloody coups return because of the policies of Brussels?:They did not try hard enough. The system is approaching collapse and that will be within a generation. Now it is becoming a desperate set of moves to stay off harm from the collapse. How to do this, More free market (less regulation), More nationalism, More socialism? That remains unclear and is likely different for each member state of the EU. If you continue to enforce what is wily unpopular then the bloody coups will commence.
1
No one forces any country to join the European Union and adopt the Euro. The European Economic Community was born 50 years ago from a desire to foster peace and prosperity in zeurope after two devastating world wars. It's done pretty well in that respect. That it is difficult to implement and sustain as a more diverse set of countries join the European Union is not a reason to abandon it. That it is at times too bureaucratic or not sensitive to local realities is not a reason to abandon it either. The problems encountered by the PIIGS are not so much caused by their membership in the European Union, but by the failures and excesses of their own governments and populations, even if it is true that their use of the Euro has removed the "easy" way-out of devaluation. It is perhaps not surprising to read such an opinion piece from the Times' conservative writer, but it does sound like the opinion of an American Republican who favors states' rights over the Federal Government and is willing to give a pass to a politician if she is dysfunctional as our president.
24
This is good and echoes many other comments that the EU and Euro have been good for Europe and for France. Only barely touched on by Douthat and the comments is the basic problem: France (like Italy) is a failed economy, with 10% unemployment and 25% youth unemployment. Per capita annual GDP growth since 1990 has been just 1.4% (only just above Italy's 1.2). This is because of dysfunctional labor laws and heavy business regulation.
Macron vows to correct this. But so did Chirac and present Pres. Hollande. Both failed from determined opposition by those who favor leisure over work (35-hr workweek) and rich welfare payments over a lean, dynamic U.S.-UK-German
economy. Can Macron (with almost no Assembly support) change this? Unlikely.
Macron vows to correct this. But so did Chirac and present Pres. Hollande. Both failed from determined opposition by those who favor leisure over work (35-hr workweek) and rich welfare payments over a lean, dynamic U.S.-UK-German
economy. Can Macron (with almost no Assembly support) change this? Unlikely.
Edit: she is NOT AS [dysfunctional]
Always thankful after considerable research of all US political persuasions , Liberals, Conservatives, Neo Cons, Socialist, and Libertarians, all thrashing around in our two party system, I became a confirmed Realist. While the EU is a experiment on that continent with half of Europe possibly going back to being under Russia's system, it seems clear citizens in the EU are fully aware Germany manages this organization, with Brussels pushing the paper. As for Muslim slums those are the result of colonialism , and now Merkels mother Theresa role. While the EU works to set some example, folks seem to being asked to accept frequent Terror attacks. In the name of what I cannot understand. Maybe it is like heads of state who declare wars and send their youth off to fight knowing they are safe in conferences and luncheons with fine wines. Point so apparent is, the western democracies ruling class simply cannot let themselves be aware. Doesn't fit their model. Both here and across the Pond. As long as debt is a non issue the push for The Social Democratic Welfare State will sway main street.
5
How are people being asked to accept terror attacks? Terror attacks are a fact of life and will be for some time. This is like saying people are being asked to accept rain because it sometimes rains and the state seems powerless to do anything about it...
1
The epic disaster of the Euro? Do you mean the monetary system that is now smoothly functioning throughout an entire continent, and that is the world's second most important reserve currency?
Mr. Douthat, you've just made an epic blunder which, fortunately, the Frence will not make in the runoff election.
Mr. Douthat, you've just made an epic blunder which, fortunately, the Frence will not make in the runoff election.
89
Douthat is exactly correct in his comments about the Euro, Southern Europe , and German domination of the EU. Denying this problem will eventually lead to another catastrophe in that continent. Hopefully other more reasonable leades in Europe will rise to power before a firebrand like Le Pen does
2
Helen,
Your comment calls to mind the moment all the economic chaos was unleashed. August 15 1971 Richard Milhous Nixon abrogated Bretton Woods. Nixon put the rich and the super rich in charge of the global economy and put an end to 26 years of an experiment which saw millions introduced to democracy and security.
Reagan was a disaster for the world but Nixon paved the way for America's economic hegemony to to corrupt the world.
Your comment calls to mind the moment all the economic chaos was unleashed. August 15 1971 Richard Milhous Nixon abrogated Bretton Woods. Nixon put the rich and the super rich in charge of the global economy and put an end to 26 years of an experiment which saw millions introduced to democracy and security.
Reagan was a disaster for the world but Nixon paved the way for America's economic hegemony to to corrupt the world.
1
George,
The George W Regime told the world that the USA could no longer run the world. All the noise you hear is the swosh of air rushing into the vacuum.
As soon as Beijing or Strasbourg takes over from New York the noise will subside. Le Pin win or lose is simply part of the large sucking sound much like the Brexit.
The George W Regime told the world that the USA could no longer run the world. All the noise you hear is the swosh of air rushing into the vacuum.
As soon as Beijing or Strasbourg takes over from New York the noise will subside. Le Pin win or lose is simply part of the large sucking sound much like the Brexit.
1
Cue outrage but not from me. This is a rare column that attempts to understand why voters are looking for alternatives to a political system that is delivering plenty of pork to the politicians, not so much bacon to many voters.
15
Without the Euro, countries like Greece and Italy could play more games with their monies, and not focus on the changes that need to be made. A stable currency is the first element to put in place in a just society.
7
Without the euro Greece would have already hit bottom and either disintegrated into civil war or made the changes necessary to prevent civil war. You cannot protect such behaviour forever, and the longer you do the worse the pain when it is faced. The Euro is truly the bane of southern Europe, like heroin is the bane of the addict, no matter how much they crave it.
2
The last sentence: "... it’s the kind of choice that has a way of getting offered again and again, until the public finally makes a different one" is true not only for France, but for Italy and several other EU/Euro member nations. The European Union's governance and administration is too much like a lumbering supertanker to either change course or effectively deal with the problems of disparate economies, sovereign debt, zombie banks, immigration/assimilation, terrorism, and so on. The EU won't disintegrate, but it will devolve into smaller regional blocks.
4
According to a friend who's a French citizen (dual citizenship) and a fiery U.S. progressive, Le Pen gets a bad rap on several issues, and the election of Macron will just put yet another Neoliberal arm of Big Money in power. Hence, I somewhat disagree with the John Lindsay characterization. Bill Clinton would, I think, be a more appropriate one.
In the introduction to her 144 commitments, Le Pen notes: "I also want to give the French people their money back because, for far too
many years, our social and taxation policies have impoverished the middle and
working classes, whilst enriching multinational corporations." Sounds more like Bernie Sanders than Mr. Trump.
https://www.marine2017.fr/2017/02/24/ludovic-de-danne-the-144-presidenti....
In the introduction to her 144 commitments, Le Pen notes: "I also want to give the French people their money back because, for far too
many years, our social and taxation policies have impoverished the middle and
working classes, whilst enriching multinational corporations." Sounds more like Bernie Sanders than Mr. Trump.
https://www.marine2017.fr/2017/02/24/ludovic-de-danne-the-144-presidenti....
11
I'm a moderate Democrat and I always find your columns worth reading. I don't always share your sensibility but it's wonderful to read such intelligent, well-reasoned. well-writen arguments.
Having said that, your Le Pen article misses some key points about France and the EU. The creation of the EU was primarily driven by France through Mitterrand. Mitterrand was desperate for France to have equal global and economic standing with the US, which he had a profound resentment toward, and the creation of the EU provided the vehicle for France to project power on a global stage.
The creation of the Euro was pushed by Mitterrand. The existence of the Euro facilitates transfer payments from Germany to other EU countries, especially to France. France contributes, on average, about 8 billion euros to the EU and receives (primarily from Germany and the UK and some from the Netherlands) about 14 billion euros annually. France is a net beneficiary.
Germany's participation in the EU as a net payer is almost a kind of voluntary war reparations. The Germans have provided enormous economic and political benefits to other EU member countries and have asked for very little in return.
So your statement about the "epic disaster of the euro, a form of German imperialism with the struggling parts of Europe as its subjects," is particularly upside down.
That France would now turn on the EU, when it drove its creation and benefits so much financially, is an issue you entirely missed.
Having said that, your Le Pen article misses some key points about France and the EU. The creation of the EU was primarily driven by France through Mitterrand. Mitterrand was desperate for France to have equal global and economic standing with the US, which he had a profound resentment toward, and the creation of the EU provided the vehicle for France to project power on a global stage.
The creation of the Euro was pushed by Mitterrand. The existence of the Euro facilitates transfer payments from Germany to other EU countries, especially to France. France contributes, on average, about 8 billion euros to the EU and receives (primarily from Germany and the UK and some from the Netherlands) about 14 billion euros annually. France is a net beneficiary.
Germany's participation in the EU as a net payer is almost a kind of voluntary war reparations. The Germans have provided enormous economic and political benefits to other EU member countries and have asked for very little in return.
So your statement about the "epic disaster of the euro, a form of German imperialism with the struggling parts of Europe as its subjects," is particularly upside down.
That France would now turn on the EU, when it drove its creation and benefits so much financially, is an issue you entirely missed.
48
"Germany's participation in the EU as a net payer is almost a kind of voluntary war reparations."
The war ended 70 years ago - when will people decide that enough is enough?
What's next - does France owe Britain and the rest of Europe reparations for the ravages of Napolean? We are living today, not in the 1940's. The National Front's emergence from Vichy France is just as relevant as the modern Democrat's emergence from the segregationalist South of George Wallace and Strom Thurmond.
The war ended 70 years ago - when will people decide that enough is enough?
What's next - does France owe Britain and the rest of Europe reparations for the ravages of Napolean? We are living today, not in the 1940's. The National Front's emergence from Vichy France is just as relevant as the modern Democrat's emergence from the segregationalist South of George Wallace and Strom Thurmond.
1
Sounds like the red states who disproportionately benefit from the taxes paid by the blue states.
I think the German people are starting to see it the way you do -- that enough is enough about helping Europe and no one's grateful for everything they do anyway, so let's just call the whole EU thing off. If this happened, it would profoundly weaken France in every way. Just so bizarre the French would do this TO THEMSELVES.
Let me get this straight. We should vote for a right wing extremist who wants to destroy one of the greatest economic unions in the world, and tell the people of France what is French and what isn't because the centrist candidate is "callow" and lacks the ability to bring extremists on both sides of the aisle to the table?
We did exactly that in the US. It hasn't reduced financial interests over ordinary citizens. It has done the exact opposite. Our public schools are being dismantled, our prisons and military are rapidly being privatized and regulations to protect the environment and public health are rapidly being destroyed for private business interests.
You not only have it wrong, you have it backwards. We need a boring center that builds consensus. Both the left and the right demonized Hillary Clinton. That wasn't about the people, it was about business interests, power and control by the worst elements in our society who would prefer to bring everyone down with them to prove a point.
We did exactly that in the US. It hasn't reduced financial interests over ordinary citizens. It has done the exact opposite. Our public schools are being dismantled, our prisons and military are rapidly being privatized and regulations to protect the environment and public health are rapidly being destroyed for private business interests.
You not only have it wrong, you have it backwards. We need a boring center that builds consensus. Both the left and the right demonized Hillary Clinton. That wasn't about the people, it was about business interests, power and control by the worst elements in our society who would prefer to bring everyone down with them to prove a point.
58
Le Pen is an attorney, charismatic, articulate and more than qualified. She is a patriotic choice, and is sincerely supportive of the interests of the common French national. She is the pro-feminist, pro-gay, pro-working class candidate.
Le Pen provides a refreshing alternative to Macron, the quintessential establishment candidate who has forgotten the common French people in favor of a globalist, corporate, no borders, pro-mass migration policies, that only benefit the 1% at the expense of the shrinking middle class French, who are losing their national identity, culture and good jobs with each passing year, and at the same time, have increased anxiety about the rise in terrorism and also street crimes and intimidation of women and gays.
Le Pen promises to change this course, and French nationals desperately need this change in direction before it is irreversible.
Also, the Euro currency has worked wonderfully if you are German, but certainly not if you are French, Italian, Greek, Spanish, or Portuguese, etc. Le Pen has rightly stated that it should be replaced by the return of the Franc, which will bring economic control and sovereignty back to the French government.
And the establishment should finally be replaced by someone who represents the common French people and not the globalists.
Le Pen provides a refreshing alternative to Macron, the quintessential establishment candidate who has forgotten the common French people in favor of a globalist, corporate, no borders, pro-mass migration policies, that only benefit the 1% at the expense of the shrinking middle class French, who are losing their national identity, culture and good jobs with each passing year, and at the same time, have increased anxiety about the rise in terrorism and also street crimes and intimidation of women and gays.
Le Pen promises to change this course, and French nationals desperately need this change in direction before it is irreversible.
Also, the Euro currency has worked wonderfully if you are German, but certainly not if you are French, Italian, Greek, Spanish, or Portuguese, etc. Le Pen has rightly stated that it should be replaced by the return of the Franc, which will bring economic control and sovereignty back to the French government.
And the establishment should finally be replaced by someone who represents the common French people and not the globalists.
12
Le Pen grows her powerbase by making promises she knows she cannot keep. She promised at the Whirlpool factory that all factory relocations would be stopped with state means if she's elected. How does she intend to pay for that? Who will buy the machines built by those factories?
The Euro currency has worked wonderfully. If France and Italy did more to balance their budgets and reform they would benefit from being part of the world's biggest free trade area even more. By blaming all their troubles on the EU and breaking it apart they only accelerate their decline.
The Euro currency has worked wonderfully. If France and Italy did more to balance their budgets and reform they would benefit from being part of the world's biggest free trade area even more. By blaming all their troubles on the EU and breaking it apart they only accelerate their decline.
2
"And while many of her economic prescriptions are half-baked, her overarching critique of the euro is correct: Her country and her continent would be better off without it."
This is where this article fails. Even considering the current problems facing any individual Ei country, the Euro has been an unmitigated success in raising the standard of living of hundreds of millions of Europeans faster than any other individual policy mix could have.
Forget the democratic or security considerations of a strong EU. On economics alone it has been a success. The block must be saved. There is no legitimate economic argument for any of its members to go it alone.
This is where this article fails. Even considering the current problems facing any individual Ei country, the Euro has been an unmitigated success in raising the standard of living of hundreds of millions of Europeans faster than any other individual policy mix could have.
Forget the democratic or security considerations of a strong EU. On economics alone it has been a success. The block must be saved. There is no legitimate economic argument for any of its members to go it alone.
23
There is an interest book, The Precariat: The New Dangerous Class by Guy Standing, that discusses in detail what Globalization’s and Neo-Liberalism’s policies have done to many especially France. He predicts the displaced The Precariat will turn to right wing extremists searching for solutions to their diminished existence.
His predictions made in 2007 seem to be playing out in the western world. Le Pen may or may not be elected but the issues will remain until they force change one way or the other.
His predictions made in 2007 seem to be playing out in the western world. Le Pen may or may not be elected but the issues will remain until they force change one way or the other.
7
Given France's historical style of political upheaval, Marine Le Pen as president would most probably trigger a civil war, no less. What Douthat is pointing at was actually summed up by a Socialist minister, Hubert Védrine, who said a couple of decades ago: "The Front National asks the good questions but offers the wrong answers." Her criticisms are valid, but she would make everything much worse if she gained the presidency. Since most French people are aware of that, her chances will remain very slim.
12
Marine Le Pen also does not run on anti-choice policies. None of France's current crop of candidates do. Indeed, the striking difference between (most of) Europe and the U.S. is the continued reactionary views of the American religious right in curtailing women's freedom to reproduce — or not — as they fit. France is still a majority Catholic country but this is not an issue. America would do well to follow suit and eradicate this undue influence in our politics.
12
The presence of large numbers of North African immigrants in France has nothing to do with its obligations under the EU. The EU provides for free movement of people WITHIN the EU, not from outside. The fact that North African immigrants and their children have been poorly treated and not assimilated well in France has everything to do with the failure of French, not EU, policy in the economic and social sphere. Re the euro: the Germans never wanted it; it was a French Idea. The fact that the German economy is dominant within the EU is because France's has been weakened by its long failure to embrace economic reforms. Le Pen's protectionist nationalism will accelerate France's loss of prestige and influence in Europe. Macron favors shaking things up and modernization. He is France's best hope.
17
The words of Marine LePen and her party can't help to put you in mind of American Republicans because they sound almost exactly alike. However, both are just as extreme and as we've seen with Republicans it takes more than slogans to actually run the government.
The National Front is just as rigid and unwilling to compromise and, like Republicans, have not much more to offer than hollow slogans.
When it comes time to vote, I think the French will reject Marine LePen. Everyone I talk to here is afraid of what's happened in the US and most seem to be a lot better informed than Americans. Then again, we set the bar pretty low.
The National Front is just as rigid and unwilling to compromise and, like Republicans, have not much more to offer than hollow slogans.
When it comes time to vote, I think the French will reject Marine LePen. Everyone I talk to here is afraid of what's happened in the US and most seem to be a lot better informed than Americans. Then again, we set the bar pretty low.
12
Macron will likely win, but it is hard to call that a victory for France. While I disagree with the position that the United States must continue to take in large numbers of immigrants, I at least understand the origin of the position in the premise that the United States "is a nation of immigrants." Why must France (or other countries) also take in droves of foreigners? What is wrong with France wanting to maintain its culture? What is wrong with France wanting to limit immigration to those who want to integrate into French culture and who embrace the values for which France stands? Why must France (or Italy, or Greece, or Hungary, or Germany, or ...) risk their cultures, their economies, and their futures by letting in essentially unlimited numbers of largely destitute and illiterate (at least in the native language) outsiders.
We all should open our hearts and our wallets to improve the lives of people around the world, but why does that correlate to open borders.
We all should open our hearts and our wallets to improve the lives of people around the world, but why does that correlate to open borders.
10
There’s nothing in Mr. Douthat’s short life experience or Harvard education that makes him an expert on France or the French people. Thus, his analysis is incomplete, omitting consideration of the historical roots of today’s French malaise. The France of the smoke-filled small town café, the local grocery store/butcher shop, the tiny family-owned restaurant, the quiet tree-lined country road, the choreographed elegance of a hotly contested game of boules started its slow disintegration into urbanized, frozen food, super mall, super highway, supersized commercial blandness back way before Mr. Douthat was born and long before the country was inundated by strangely foreign immigrants disdainful not only of the France-of-Myth-and-Mold but also of the France-of-Modernism-and-Melancholy. Metaphorically French culture today is like a car driven by an enfeebled, terminally ill driver that suddenly crashes into a concrete pillar of immigrants. The driver was already doomed, the crash merely accelerating the process. Mr. Douthat also misses the point that Le Pen’s courting of Russia is explained by France’s fear and loathing of Germany. Nothing like a two-front war to keep Germany contained? She, as did de Gaulle, has dreams of a mighty French nation à la Louis XV or Napoleon that can dominate Western Europe. Dream on.
13
As Mr. Douthat points out, the popularity of Le Pen is partly a reaction against a liberal elite. Drive anywhere in Europe and you can feel this elite as they fly past you at 90mph in the left lane in a black german car while you chug along at 60 in your 4-cylinder Spanish Seat, straining to maintain your speed on the hills.
The answer is not Le Pen. She is just a symptom. People do not feel represented by their own representative government. Like in America, the Euro-govt. represents the rich and monster corporations. The peasants don't count. They are seen as yesterday, while corporate government is now.
The Euro-American governments have tilted, but not a tilt to the left or to the right. Our vocabulary hasn't caught up yet. It's a different dynamic. Calling it left vs. right or progressive vs. conservative is no longer accurate. Both sides are totally enthralled with money. Both sides leverage social issues to get power, and then rule for the 1%. Both sides field candidates who probably believe that they can fix the world by working with the wealthiest players. They all believe in trickle down politics.
The EU has lots of problems, but a World War is not one of them. It seems to me to be like the ACA. It's a start, but it needs to be revised, not abandoned.
The answer is not Le Pen. She is just a symptom. People do not feel represented by their own representative government. Like in America, the Euro-govt. represents the rich and monster corporations. The peasants don't count. They are seen as yesterday, while corporate government is now.
The Euro-American governments have tilted, but not a tilt to the left or to the right. Our vocabulary hasn't caught up yet. It's a different dynamic. Calling it left vs. right or progressive vs. conservative is no longer accurate. Both sides are totally enthralled with money. Both sides leverage social issues to get power, and then rule for the 1%. Both sides field candidates who probably believe that they can fix the world by working with the wealthiest players. They all believe in trickle down politics.
The EU has lots of problems, but a World War is not one of them. It seems to me to be like the ACA. It's a start, but it needs to be revised, not abandoned.
10
I've literally never heard anybody refer to as a standardized value of currency as a "destructive common currency." Wow. A dollar is a dollar. A healthy cow that will live X years and who can produce Y gallons of milk is a healthy cow that will live X years and who can produce Y gallons of milk. The fact that we "smart" humans somehow got that wrong, somewhere down the line, is literal insanity. Does it personally benefit you to have different currencies? Because last I checked it only benefits the 1% who can afford to play the game.
3
There is an interesting book, The Precariat: The New Dangerous Class by Guy Standing, that discusses in detail what Globalization’s and Neo-Liberalism’s policies have done to many countries, especially France with massive unemployment and lost industries; America is not the only land to be have been so effected over recent years.
He predicts the displaced The Precariat will turn to right wing extremists searching for solutions to their diminished existence. His predictions made in 2007 seem to be playing out in the western world.
Le Pen may or may not be elected but the issues will remain until they force change one way or the other.
He predicts the displaced The Precariat will turn to right wing extremists searching for solutions to their diminished existence. His predictions made in 2007 seem to be playing out in the western world.
Le Pen may or may not be elected but the issues will remain until they force change one way or the other.
4
"That decision will be understandable. But it’s the kind of choice that has a way of getting offered again and again, until the public finally makes a different one."
With this as your final shot you do a fine job of quickly pulling the rug out from under your argument, but I least I was able to find something in your piece I could agree with. No, Marine Le Pen is not her father who would be ever so much closer to being Trump's homologue in France. But the probable truth that Marine is not suffering from a narcissistic pathology only makes her more dangerous, as the apple has not fallen as far from the tree as she (they) would like to make people think.
As is the case in the U.S., the chasm is deep and crumbling ever wider and it's education, or more accurately a lack thereof, that may soon be pushing our sons to its edge...
And that until, long last, we are no longer offered the choice.
With this as your final shot you do a fine job of quickly pulling the rug out from under your argument, but I least I was able to find something in your piece I could agree with. No, Marine Le Pen is not her father who would be ever so much closer to being Trump's homologue in France. But the probable truth that Marine is not suffering from a narcissistic pathology only makes her more dangerous, as the apple has not fallen as far from the tree as she (they) would like to make people think.
As is the case in the U.S., the chasm is deep and crumbling ever wider and it's education, or more accurately a lack thereof, that may soon be pushing our sons to its edge...
And that until, long last, we are no longer offered the choice.
4
Voting for the Nation Front, and LePen, is tossing the baby out with the bathwater. Sure, the water is cold and dirty and has to go, but the welfare of the baby is imperative.
When something is working poorly, whether it is the EU rules on immigration, the Euro, the cost of social programs, or economic policy, the instinct is to just get rid of it. But that creates a vacuum, and what replaces the bad policy is usually more bad policy - just equal and opposite bad policy. We avoid the challenge of having to face hard decisions, of having to make the people aware of trade-offs, of forcing the electorate to face the reality of the downside of simplistic solutions.
Trump's first 100 is an example. His executive orders are based on nothing more than the equation: -1(Obama) = Trump. Whether they work, are any good, have downsides, hurt people - all that is moot.
Populism is a rejection of the status quo. But it ignores the impact of the replacement. When the replacement is a combination of nationalism, populism, anti-imiigrant fervor, and corporate rent-taking, it is a toxic brew. We've seen it before and it was, to say the very least, an evil mess.
When something is working poorly, whether it is the EU rules on immigration, the Euro, the cost of social programs, or economic policy, the instinct is to just get rid of it. But that creates a vacuum, and what replaces the bad policy is usually more bad policy - just equal and opposite bad policy. We avoid the challenge of having to face hard decisions, of having to make the people aware of trade-offs, of forcing the electorate to face the reality of the downside of simplistic solutions.
Trump's first 100 is an example. His executive orders are based on nothing more than the equation: -1(Obama) = Trump. Whether they work, are any good, have downsides, hurt people - all that is moot.
Populism is a rejection of the status quo. But it ignores the impact of the replacement. When the replacement is a combination of nationalism, populism, anti-imiigrant fervor, and corporate rent-taking, it is a toxic brew. We've seen it before and it was, to say the very least, an evil mess.
3
Just as the industrialization of China and India and their integration into the global economy came as the expense of the industrial working class in the US, working class Europe was the main victim of integrating formerly Communist eastern Europe into the EU. And in both cases the elites consider it a small price to pay for a great success. What is difficult to understand is what French voters see in Macron, other than a continuation of the same slow, painful movement toward deregulation of the labor market that they had under Hollande.
6
No, there is not a case for Le Pen. The fact that her prejudices find an echo in others who are not subject to similar anathemas is beside the point: differences of degree matter and her election would be a catastrophic watershed event. There is no "assimilation" issue. The terrorists are nearly all second and third generation assimilated young men, with bleak employment prospects, who turned to petty crime and found Islamism in jail. The prejudice that marginalizes their class, and which the writer legitimizes, is the flip side of the violence everyone fears.
The euro is certainly problematic, as is the EU itself. But the idea of simply jettisoning them is hopelessly naive; it would prompt massive recession and political chaos all over Europe. Institutions could be reformed in a less neoliberal direction. But that would mean more union, not less.
Sometimes there is no escape option from flawed institutions, no choice but to work to improve them. Escape invites a chaos in which those now "left behind" will be precisely the most vulnerable.
The writer traffics in the same kind of populist cliches about "out of touch" elites as those who supported Trump, and has the same blind faith in the efficacy of a politics of pure alienation and protest. "Shaking up the system" is supposed to be enough. His apology for xenophobia also doesn't sit well with his religious pretensions, which he likes to flash around at every opportunity.
He needs to wise up or find a new calling.
The euro is certainly problematic, as is the EU itself. But the idea of simply jettisoning them is hopelessly naive; it would prompt massive recession and political chaos all over Europe. Institutions could be reformed in a less neoliberal direction. But that would mean more union, not less.
Sometimes there is no escape option from flawed institutions, no choice but to work to improve them. Escape invites a chaos in which those now "left behind" will be precisely the most vulnerable.
The writer traffics in the same kind of populist cliches about "out of touch" elites as those who supported Trump, and has the same blind faith in the efficacy of a politics of pure alienation and protest. "Shaking up the system" is supposed to be enough. His apology for xenophobia also doesn't sit well with his religious pretensions, which he likes to flash around at every opportunity.
He needs to wise up or find a new calling.
The danger of LePen is that she is a dressed up extremist. The criticisms of the Euro and of the EU ignore the overall benefits that have accrued to the continent. As one who goes to Europe frequently, and who has seen the growth of economies, I am perplexed at the generalities that are not true about the overall results of the EU.
Already we are seeing the US economy falter under the nationalist President Trump. France would really suffer under LePen and her nationalism. Not sad, but tragic.
Already we are seeing the US economy falter under the nationalist President Trump. France would really suffer under LePen and her nationalism. Not sad, but tragic.
5
Competency in a scapegoating demagogue is not a positive trait if you're a fan of democracy.
The recent American Experiment in insanity is instructive: Trump's incoherent incompetency is more comfort than concern. At least that's what I tell myself.
Le Pen's competency vs. Trump will not give the French any bragging rights worth having. Even if she can speak in full sentences.
The recent American Experiment in insanity is instructive: Trump's incoherent incompetency is more comfort than concern. At least that's what I tell myself.
Le Pen's competency vs. Trump will not give the French any bragging rights worth having. Even if she can speak in full sentences.
5
Is there a case? How about that Macron is an extreme banker, posing as a politician? I mean, we know that bankers have long controlled political leaders in this country as well as in Europe. The Bernie Sanders phenomenon was an important first step towards changing that. Macron would be a terrible, submissive step in the opposite direction. A choice between these two candidates is pathetic.
6
The "epic" disaster of the euro isn't much compared to the epic disasters of WWI and WWII, and I strongly suspect it will lag behind the big mistake known as Brexit. Perhaps those of us who grew up after the great wars should be more circumspect about spraying the word "epic" around. What we see here is that conservatives are always climbing an ideological slope toward an imaginary perfectly conservative world. They can't hide it for long, any more than Dr. Strangelove could control his wayward gloved hand.
8
mr douthat steps off smartly, "EVERY surge of right-wing populism confronts voters with a different dilemma"...and he arrives in fine form at his destination, if voters "choose Macron, a callow creature of a failed consensus, over the possibility that the repulsive party’s standard-bearer might be right...it’s the kind of choice that has a way of getting offered again and again, until the public finally makes a different one."
along the way there are bumps, the most critical one, in view of the warning issued, is the notion that with trump "the central question was always about the candidate himself: about his fitness for the office, his ability to execute its basic duties".
indeed, the man became the issue, the "ad hominum" attacks continue today, but it was policy, the changes that could come with a trump presidency, that frightened democrats and their protective press, leading them, first, to disparage the man "a clown," then, failing that, a monster, a threat to all that we hold dear, playing on fear, (a form of argument known as "ad baculum", a fallacy framed way back by aristotle himself)...so, instead of cogent argument refuting the right, the democrats took to disparaging the messenger and missing the point, the discontent that, eventually, led to trump's election...and therein lies the real caution...next time let's argue policy first.
it is the failure of policy, it's "again and again" reiteration without result that gets contrarians elected.
along the way there are bumps, the most critical one, in view of the warning issued, is the notion that with trump "the central question was always about the candidate himself: about his fitness for the office, his ability to execute its basic duties".
indeed, the man became the issue, the "ad hominum" attacks continue today, but it was policy, the changes that could come with a trump presidency, that frightened democrats and their protective press, leading them, first, to disparage the man "a clown," then, failing that, a monster, a threat to all that we hold dear, playing on fear, (a form of argument known as "ad baculum", a fallacy framed way back by aristotle himself)...so, instead of cogent argument refuting the right, the democrats took to disparaging the messenger and missing the point, the discontent that, eventually, led to trump's election...and therein lies the real caution...next time let's argue policy first.
it is the failure of policy, it's "again and again" reiteration without result that gets contrarians elected.
1
You downplay the danger Le Pen represents. First, there is no mass immigration to France at the moment. But there are millions of North Africans living in bleak suburbs in the third generation. What does she purpose to do with them - the Final Solution?
Second, while a case can be made that France would have been better off if she had remained outside the Euro, unilateral withdrawal from the Euro now could prove disastrous for France and indeed the world economy. It might make Lehman Bros. look like peanuts. So she would almost certainly backpedal quickly in office, much like Trump on China and NAFTA. Or wittingly or unwittingly provoke an unprecedented economic panic.
Second, while a case can be made that France would have been better off if she had remained outside the Euro, unilateral withdrawal from the Euro now could prove disastrous for France and indeed the world economy. It might make Lehman Bros. look like peanuts. So she would almost certainly backpedal quickly in office, much like Trump on China and NAFTA. Or wittingly or unwittingly provoke an unprecedented economic panic.
4
I admit to being over my head in trying to discuss the problems of the Euro. But it is hard for me to imagine Europe returning to the old order of national boundaries...the separate immigration and customs checkpoints, the different currencies, the multitude of different ordinances, etc. Perhaps a revised unified European Union policy vis a vis immigration would help in Europe, but in the end it will be hard to control the impetus of immigration in general, just as it is in the U.S. Building walls, erecting barriers will do little. The breakup of the EU would not be to the benefit of Europe or the world.
4
Mr. Douthat, your right-wing, U.S.-centric views are exactly what Europe doesn't need. You underestimate the damage a Le Pen presidency would do to Europe.
A divided Europe might serve U.S. political hegemony, and the collapse of the Euro might support relentless U.S. attempts to maintain Dollar hegemony, but it would strengthen Russia and weaken the Western Alliance.
If you are advocating every country for its own, then you should also acknowledge the resulting dangers to world peace, a peace largely maintained by 70 years of inter-European cooperation. Le Pen would be an unmitigated disaster not just for Europe but for her own country that would become even more divided than before. A Trump-like presidency, your denials notwithstanding, would spell doom for France.
A divided Europe might serve U.S. political hegemony, and the collapse of the Euro might support relentless U.S. attempts to maintain Dollar hegemony, but it would strengthen Russia and weaken the Western Alliance.
If you are advocating every country for its own, then you should also acknowledge the resulting dangers to world peace, a peace largely maintained by 70 years of inter-European cooperation. Le Pen would be an unmitigated disaster not just for Europe but for her own country that would become even more divided than before. A Trump-like presidency, your denials notwithstanding, would spell doom for France.
10
As a French citizen who will be voting for Mr. Macron, I nevertheless enjoyed this column, and I think its many critics ignore the duty of the media to give us a variety of views. Understandably, given that neither the writer nor his critics are writing from France, there is oversimplification on both sides. Having listened carefully to speeches of both Mme. Le Pen and Mr. Macron, I do not think that Le Pen is a "fascist," as one of your readers asserted, nor do I think that Macron is "callow," as Douthat has said. Le Pen has not promised that she is taking France out of the European Union; she has stated she will hold a referendum on the subject, and will abide by the outcome, with polls showing that the majority of the French prefer to remain in the EU by a wide margin. In addition,, she has just made an alliance with a more conventional rightist politician, and has moderated several of her positions considerably. But Le Pen's program remains economically unrealistic. A return of the minimum retire age to 60 from 62 would bankrupt the country's retirement funds. While I agree with her that the euro has been more negative than positive for us, French debt is now denominated in euros, and any kind of precipitate return to a new franc would increase the debt level by 20 per cent. Macron is far from perfect, but he is intelligent, articulate, and has some imaginative ideas for reform that have a chance of being accepted by both moderate left and right.
102
I appreciate your comment- From my perspective- living in NY without the detailed information you have, I found Dohaut's article irresponsible. It is entertaining - but mostly fluff and unfounded opinion. Your comment on the other had was informative and a good read.
2
I don't get the dislike of the Euro, after all isn't it convenient to be able to, say, hop a bus from France to Germany and be able to buy stuff there without going through the hassle of a money changer? In the US we have 50 states, but we use a single unified currency instead of allowing each state its own currency (which is something that was pushed for at one point). Isn't it much more convenient to be able to cross state lines with a unified currency than it would be if each state had its own exclusive currency?
7
Before calling the Euro a "form of German Imperialism" Mr. Douthat would have done well to consult the history books. He would have found that the Euro was initiated by French president Mitterand, essentially as the price for France's consent to German unification after fall of the Berlin wall. The Germans were quite reluctant to give up their currency at the time, and insisted on a set of sound management rules to prevent inflationary government spending. The Euro is in trouble because there is no unified economic policy in the Euro zone. 'Imperialism' is an odd characterization of the issue.
9
There is no American equivalent of a domestic terrorist threat? Oh Ross dear, I think after McVeigh and San Bernardino the FBI would disagree quite strongly with you on that.
14
Indeed! I would suggest that Mr. Douthat peruse some of the recent reporting disseminated by the Southern Poverty Law Center. If they're not immediately available to him, I'd be happy to send him mine!
1
If it talks like a fascist and walks like a fascist, then it is a fascist.
It would not surprise me in the least if Ross had a picture of Franco on his childhood bedroom wall.
It would not surprise me in the least if Ross had a picture of Franco on his childhood bedroom wall.
43
Marine Le Pen is smarter and savvier than Trump and that makes her far more dangerous. She talks in complete sentences, does not brag and her appeals to French chauvinism are more sophisticated than Trump's crude lies. Trump is worrisome but so far it seems he can be constrained by built in checks in US government institutions. Le Pen if elected will be far more consequential and may lead to the dissolution of the EU, thus ending the longest period of peace and prosperity European nations outside of Russian influence have known. There is nothing correct about Le Pen's position on the future of the EU, everything else she stands pales compared to this.
45
People give the EU far more credit for European peace and prosperity than it deserves. The EU as we know it did not exist until the late 1990s. Before that, Europe maintained borders and separate currencies. All those decades of postwar peace and prosperity were due to American cooperation and investment, and bolstered by the Common Market, which has been strangled in its sleep by EU policies.
This is patently ridiculous. The Europeans are a spent force, militarily. Logistically and strategically they couldn't fight one another in any meaningful way even if they desperately wanted to. In manpower alone, they are deficient. The EU itself had zero bearing or impact on this, it is a change rooted in demography and broader internal economic trends.
"...ending the longest period of peace" - give me a break. But then people who don't understand history have always enjoyed grossly oversimplifying it.
"...ending the longest period of peace" - give me a break. But then people who don't understand history have always enjoyed grossly oversimplifying it.
1
Douhat frequently pens extremely silly opeds but this takes the cookie. Le Pen is de Gaulle prime architect of the Franco-German axis in the EU which de Gaulle saw as a counterweight to American cultural and economic domination. He could usefully reading Lacouture's excellent two volume biography of the General because his ignorance is astonishing. He designed the constitution of the 5th Republic with two specific goals. To overcome the chronic instability of the French political system and secondly to make very sure that extremists like Le Pen were kept out of the presidency. Some of his other comments are equally absurd. The Euro is far from being an epic disaster. It is being used every day by about 450 million people (more than use the dollar), is the world's second reserve currency, and the great fear in London right now is being shut out of Euro denominated transactions.
106
All those 450 m people using the euro are European, and have no choice. Millions of them would prefer not to. Those using the U.S. dollar vastly outnumber even the American population. Major difference that undercuts your position significantly.
Being compelled to use the Euro, is no more a vote of confidence in the Euro, than a Soviet citizen being compelled to vote for the local cadre, no choice.
I love it. All that I have read about the French presidential vote says that Marine Le Pen will lose. Do not believe it. It was said that Donald Trump did not have a chance, Brexit did not have a chance. When will we learn that populism is running rampart over the US and Europe.
Think of France being divided into three zones. Zone 1 includes Paris and its environs. Zone 2 extends out toward the border provinces of Zone 3. Zone 3 will give the election to Le Pen. Furthest away from Paris, it is as disaffected as the farm states in the US. Paris, like Washington, DC and New York, faces the world and is part of the discussion about the European Union and the wide world. Little of this touches on the lives of the French men and women in Alsace and Brittany. They would just as much not even be a part of France. Their vote will be intended to spite the all-knowing Parisians, as Trump voters put the spike to both the Democrats and Republicans in this country.
Think of France being divided into three zones. Zone 1 includes Paris and its environs. Zone 2 extends out toward the border provinces of Zone 3. Zone 3 will give the election to Le Pen. Furthest away from Paris, it is as disaffected as the farm states in the US. Paris, like Washington, DC and New York, faces the world and is part of the discussion about the European Union and the wide world. Little of this touches on the lives of the French men and women in Alsace and Brittany. They would just as much not even be a part of France. Their vote will be intended to spite the all-knowing Parisians, as Trump voters put the spike to both the Democrats and Republicans in this country.
16
@MRtotermund
Alexandria, Va
What you believe might have more credibility is you were remotely familiar with some basic facts. The polls showed that the Brexit vote was a toss up which is where it ended 48 to 52%. Your zones are also ridiculous. Paris is certainly anti Le Pen (she got 5% of their votes) but generally speaking major cities and urban populations across France are also anti Le Pen. The other fact at play is that the vast majority of Frenchmen over 60 who represent about 25% of the population are extremely pro EU probably because they have a clearer recollection of what went before.
Alexandria, Va
What you believe might have more credibility is you were remotely familiar with some basic facts. The polls showed that the Brexit vote was a toss up which is where it ended 48 to 52%. Your zones are also ridiculous. Paris is certainly anti Le Pen (she got 5% of their votes) but generally speaking major cities and urban populations across France are also anti Le Pen. The other fact at play is that the vast majority of Frenchmen over 60 who represent about 25% of the population are extremely pro EU probably because they have a clearer recollection of what went before.
42
I'm sitting in the courtyard of a hotel in Alsace this moment (Enjoying a Bordeau and local cheese, but I digress). I am listening to a conversation at the table next to me in mixed French and German about how dangerous Marine Le Pen actually is. There is no love in Alsace.
5
John, you are right. If you look at the Times map of the election major cities and urban populations were anti Le Pen. But there are areas of anti Le Pen sentiment across the country. Out friend in the Aveyron (La France profonde or "Deep France") tells us that Le Pen came in 4th. Of course the French know about Brexit and Trump and worry; but the polls were right for round one and it's precisely because of Brexit and Trump that they hope the polls are correct about round two: a win for Macron who is a political party outsider. Le Pen's main support is in the northeast where the former steel mills are in deed rusting and there is a fair amount of xenophobia. But unlike the US citizens who voted for Trump these citizens are covered by the generous French social system so they are not looking to tear it down. I can already hear 'je te l'avais dit' (I told you so) coming from the side of the winner of this important final vote on the 7th.
1
Criticize the euro all you want. The simple fact is there has been no general European conflagration since WWII. The euro is one reason for that. It can be made better. Repealing it would be as foolish as repealing Obamacare. There is nothing to take its place.
12
The euro did not exist until 1999!!!! It didn't become the sole EU currency until 2002!
PLEASE, do not comment if you know so little about the subject. You are inflicting the harm of misinformation onto 6 recommenders and counting...
PLEASE, do not comment if you know so little about the subject. You are inflicting the harm of misinformation onto 6 recommenders and counting...
2
If there is a case for Le Pen it as being made not by her but by the Islamic extremists who have committed a bevy of Terrorist attacks. The list is long( the issue has its own Wikipedia page). Charlie Hebdo, Bataclan,Champs-Elysees are just a few of the notorious highlights. There was even an attack against a family of four in Garde-Colombe by a Muslim man with a kitchen knife because he was upset that the women in the family were not dressed modestly enough. If unfettered Muslim migration continues in France that libertarian country will lose its identity. The French are very willing to tolerate the Muslims it is the Muslims who cannot tolerate the French.Le pen is a perfectly reasonable reaction to all of this. The museums.the music,the food,the beaches where clothing is at times optional is what makes France a dreamed of destination for millions of people around the world. Saving the egalitarian openness of French life and culture should be the cause for the left and it is ironic that political correctness and stupidity has made Le Pen and the National Front the primary defender of these values. Yes there is a case for Marine Le Pen and the Islamic extremists make that case anew with every attack.
17
The French cities most affected by terrorist attacks are the cities least likely to vote for Le Pen, just as NYC has consistently rejected Republicans, while the areas most likely to embrace Le Pen's anti-immigrant demagoguery are (like the US) mostly white and rural. Why might that be, do you think?
3
The French will decide what is best for them. Thankfully they are a lot more educated than we are so they will use their critical thinking skills to make the best decision for their country. I suspect that they have been watching the turmoil caused by the American decision to vote for someone different who's not mainstream and they will factor that into their decision.
The United States hasn't fought a serious war with our neighbors since the Spanish American war of 1898. Even the civil war, our most deadly war ended in 1865. The French dealt with two major world wars in the last century. So if they feel that the EU which mimics our 50 state unity is the best way to keep peace on the continent, I think they are more qualified than we are to judge.
We know from our own history of immigration that absorbing a large amount of people in a very short amount of time with very different cultures and customs takes a generation or two to smooth out. We've said the same thing about every major group of immigrants that have come to our country that the French are saying now. When you think your way of life is under threat you react with fear. I suspect that in the end the French are going to refuse to give into that fear.
The United States hasn't fought a serious war with our neighbors since the Spanish American war of 1898. Even the civil war, our most deadly war ended in 1865. The French dealt with two major world wars in the last century. So if they feel that the EU which mimics our 50 state unity is the best way to keep peace on the continent, I think they are more qualified than we are to judge.
We know from our own history of immigration that absorbing a large amount of people in a very short amount of time with very different cultures and customs takes a generation or two to smooth out. We've said the same thing about every major group of immigrants that have come to our country that the French are saying now. When you think your way of life is under threat you react with fear. I suspect that in the end the French are going to refuse to give into that fear.
8
The National Front is a fascist party and so is Le Pen. Your fancy words and faulty logic don't change that Ross. The party, Le Pen, and her father have a history of anti-Semitism and Islamaphobia which you make excuses for. Austerity politics which you support are the cause of France's economic problems and scapegoating of Muslims.
18
The National Front is still the party of the anti-Semites in France. To think that they have all been purged or will turn their backs on one of their foundational beliefs is delusional. To answer the question "Is there a Case for Le Pen?", the answer is No.
20
There is of course a good case for Le Pen.
She is experienced, thoughtful, well-spoken, and educated. She believes in the ideals of the National Front and purged her own father when his ugly anti-Semitic rhetoric was hurting the party's image. Will she win? There is a slim chance for that because of course she has the gall to point out that the center-left and center-right parties have only proffered France self-serving elitists for decades while the nation continues to suffer paralysis. She has the audacity to point out that Muslims immigrated to France and don't share their values, that the EU is an experiment where the have-not countries steal from the haves, where the bureaucrats in Brussels dictate policy for sovereign nations.
Macron will breeze to the office of President. Why not? He hasn't ever been elected to office before. He is an empty shell which can easily be filled by the special interests he represents: the elite investment bankers with whom he started his career. He was appointed as Hollande's finance minister and accomplished nothing but suddenly as President he will be somehow different? Oh but of course...
The Democrats reading these pages point to sexism and misogyny for Clinton's defeat last September. But they betray their own prejudices for not recognizing the same in themselves for wishing Le Pen failure. They can't debate Le Pen on policy, so she must lose to the fresh-faced man instead.
She is experienced, thoughtful, well-spoken, and educated. She believes in the ideals of the National Front and purged her own father when his ugly anti-Semitic rhetoric was hurting the party's image. Will she win? There is a slim chance for that because of course she has the gall to point out that the center-left and center-right parties have only proffered France self-serving elitists for decades while the nation continues to suffer paralysis. She has the audacity to point out that Muslims immigrated to France and don't share their values, that the EU is an experiment where the have-not countries steal from the haves, where the bureaucrats in Brussels dictate policy for sovereign nations.
Macron will breeze to the office of President. Why not? He hasn't ever been elected to office before. He is an empty shell which can easily be filled by the special interests he represents: the elite investment bankers with whom he started his career. He was appointed as Hollande's finance minister and accomplished nothing but suddenly as President he will be somehow different? Oh but of course...
The Democrats reading these pages point to sexism and misogyny for Clinton's defeat last September. But they betray their own prejudices for not recognizing the same in themselves for wishing Le Pen failure. They can't debate Le Pen on policy, so she must lose to the fresh-faced man instead.
20
"But her attacks on Islamic fundamentalism...have been echoed by many mainstream French politicians. An argument for quarantining her perspective would apply to Nicolas Sarkozy or François Fillon, not just her."
As well it should apply. The fact that Sarkozy and Fillon have made similar horrendous statements does not in any way "normalize" them, any more than the fact that Ted Cruz said some of the same things about Muslims that Trump did normalize them.
As well it should apply. The fact that Sarkozy and Fillon have made similar horrendous statements does not in any way "normalize" them, any more than the fact that Ted Cruz said some of the same things about Muslims that Trump did normalize them.
19
"Why France’s populist tribune is different from Donald Trump?"
What a HUGE TRUMPIAN LIE!! These two degenerates are NOT different! Other than the one wears dresses and the other wears suits, they both have associated with holocaust deniers, they are both anti-science, pro-coal global climate doubters, they are both are homophobes denying gay people the right to marry, and both are islamophobic immigrant haters.
So if the one revolting degenerate can be called an empty suit can we call the other degenerate an empty dress?
What a HUGE TRUMPIAN LIE!! These two degenerates are NOT different! Other than the one wears dresses and the other wears suits, they both have associated with holocaust deniers, they are both anti-science, pro-coal global climate doubters, they are both are homophobes denying gay people the right to marry, and both are islamophobic immigrant haters.
So if the one revolting degenerate can be called an empty suit can we call the other degenerate an empty dress?
21
No, there is no moral case for Le Pen. Just as there is no moral case for Trump. Both are corrupt. Owned by Russia, beholden to racist white nationalists and with no clear plan other than anti-immigration. Yes, western democracies need to manage immigration, confront the negative economic effects of globalization and quit cozying up to banks. But Russian fascism is not the answer.
37
Good points Jennifer. Putin's masterpiece of manipulation will be studied by generations of intelligence officers. Hopefully, they can learn from our mistakes and recommend legislation that can prevent future crypto-Russian - fascists from the success that they're now having infecting our social media and thence, our society and its culture.
2
Assuring us that a repulsive party and its equally repulsive standard bearer have abandoned their long-standing repulsive agenda is naive. Ross's fawning piece is based upon a few of Le Pen's professed utterances-- which utterances were motivated not by any humanistic epiphany but rather by a need to get to the middle quickly.
One can be certain that she is winking to her base as she trolls for votes rather than turning over new leaves. Unfortunately, we are seeing a return to a pre-WWII mentality both in American and in Europe. Fascists and crypto fascists don't alarm the way they might have a generation ago and the consequences for Europe and the World may be devastating.
One can be certain that she is winking to her base as she trolls for votes rather than turning over new leaves. Unfortunately, we are seeing a return to a pre-WWII mentality both in American and in Europe. Fascists and crypto fascists don't alarm the way they might have a generation ago and the consequences for Europe and the World may be devastating.
32
What is both frightening and depressing about the French election is that there is simply no good choice for the voter to make. Unfortunately I think it could also be said that the voter in the past American election had no good choice as well. Are these two elections symptoms of what may be a fatal disease of western democracies?
6
I agree we didn't have a good choice once it came down to the two finalists. I think Sanders was a better (not perfect) choice.
1
This absurd column is perhaps best understood as reflecting Douthat's affinity for the politics of Action Francaise. That ideology, the right-wing Catholicism of anti-Dreyfusard intellectuals, like Le Pen's, led straight to Vichy--not to Gaullism, not to the defense of republicanism, not to laicite. It was the road to the Vel d'Hiv, not to liberation.
78
hmm...
Mr. RD, how can you claim: "To begin with, nobody seriously doubts Le Pen’s competence, her command of policy" and later say "her economic prescriptions are half-baked" ? Which is it? Plenty of people doubt Le Pen's competence -- that's the main reason why they're not voting for her.
Plenty of people know she has tapped into national anger and resentment -- her biggest similarity with DJT -- but plenty also believe she has no clue -- also similar to DJT -- as to how to proceed were she elected.
Populists dream of unmediated power, but that's not the way the world works, certainly not in the Internet age.
Finally, what evidence do you have that Mr. Macron is callow ("immature, inexperienced")? Such bald claims are just name-calling. EM has way more practical work experience than MLP. She's a French Lady Macbeth -- name calling is so easy, n'est-ce pas ? -- and will soon be "out out"... and would have been out after round one had the Left been able to unite around one torch-bearer instead of bickering (as usual) amongst themselves.
Mr. RD, how can you claim: "To begin with, nobody seriously doubts Le Pen’s competence, her command of policy" and later say "her economic prescriptions are half-baked" ? Which is it? Plenty of people doubt Le Pen's competence -- that's the main reason why they're not voting for her.
Plenty of people know she has tapped into national anger and resentment -- her biggest similarity with DJT -- but plenty also believe she has no clue -- also similar to DJT -- as to how to proceed were she elected.
Populists dream of unmediated power, but that's not the way the world works, certainly not in the Internet age.
Finally, what evidence do you have that Mr. Macron is callow ("immature, inexperienced")? Such bald claims are just name-calling. EM has way more practical work experience than MLP. She's a French Lady Macbeth -- name calling is so easy, n'est-ce pas ? -- and will soon be "out out"... and would have been out after round one had the Left been able to unite around one torch-bearer instead of bickering (as usual) amongst themselves.
62
French culture has evolved through iterative collisions between exogenous influences with endogenous conservation. We are talking, after all, about a nation that established an academy to guard its linguistic integrity, yet which has still seen the infiltration of words for which there are no "home-grown" equivalents, e.g. "Le Smoking"= "dinner jacket." French culture is not and never has been a hermetic manifestation exclusively cultivated within its own boundaries--never. Also, as with all colonial powers, the question has never been about the infusion of foreign influence; rather, it has been about who gets to dictate the terms of that infusion. For a country that could not possibly enjoy its standard of living and influence in the world without having historically disregarded the cultural integrity and geopolitical distribution of practically every continent on the planet, the FN's xenophobic manifesto stretches the English definition of hypocrisy.
As far as the EU question, the efficacy of spanning one monetary system across sovereign nations was challenging from the onset, at least for any longterm stability in labor markets. However, Europe's transformation from the signing of the Treaty of Rome into the current EU, which must be acknowledged for one of the longest periods of peace in that continent's history, is the kind of evolution that bears better understanding than Le Pen or her surrogates will ever offer.
As far as the EU question, the efficacy of spanning one monetary system across sovereign nations was challenging from the onset, at least for any longterm stability in labor markets. However, Europe's transformation from the signing of the Treaty of Rome into the current EU, which must be acknowledged for one of the longest periods of peace in that continent's history, is the kind of evolution that bears better understanding than Le Pen or her surrogates will ever offer.
18
So you are saying that no one is harmed by globalism, correct? The French people whose streets and neighborhoods are no longer safe, who can't find employment, whose social benefits are smaller now because immigrants are leeching off the system are all just hallucinating?
1
Marine Le Pen made a very serious mistake last month when she claimed that "I think France is not responsible for the Vel d'Hiv." [Velodrome d'Hiver roundup of Jews]. As much as France and the French are ashamed of the actions of some of their citizens during the Occupation, it can never be wiped away.
Contrary to what she later claimed, the French are proud to be French. The history of the Second World War is not the only thing taught in French schools, and it is a gross exaggeration to say that the children there are presented with "only its darkest aspects."
Contrary to what she later claimed, the French are proud to be French. The history of the Second World War is not the only thing taught in French schools, and it is a gross exaggeration to say that the children there are presented with "only its darkest aspects."
33
Many didn't understand what Marine Le Pen meant about France not being responsible about the veldiv. She took from De Gaulle playbook.
There is a lot to be said of the French being tired of accusations concerning collaboration during the war, of its colonial past. Past presidents acknowledged mistakes and crimes. I think enough was said on these atrocities.
Which brings us to the present where many in France and elsewhere for that matter, are ready to accommodate anyone and everyone to their own detriment. Guilt is a major factor in the West now, that coupled with zero knowledge of history. If some in France vote for Macron, meaning against Le Pen it's because they don't want to appear racist. They are ready to become extinct in order not to offend.
If Macron is elected, France will still see turmoil but without resolution, as the new president would have no clear direction. What would motivate him would be making a show of his will without clear basis for what he wants for the country. His program will change as he goes along with Europe's interest at heart first. He will also have tremendous trouble governing without the necessary parliamentary team needed for doing so. All other parties who presently ask to vote Macron will turn on him afterwards.
There is a lot to be said of the French being tired of accusations concerning collaboration during the war, of its colonial past. Past presidents acknowledged mistakes and crimes. I think enough was said on these atrocities.
Which brings us to the present where many in France and elsewhere for that matter, are ready to accommodate anyone and everyone to their own detriment. Guilt is a major factor in the West now, that coupled with zero knowledge of history. If some in France vote for Macron, meaning against Le Pen it's because they don't want to appear racist. They are ready to become extinct in order not to offend.
If Macron is elected, France will still see turmoil but without resolution, as the new president would have no clear direction. What would motivate him would be making a show of his will without clear basis for what he wants for the country. His program will change as he goes along with Europe's interest at heart first. He will also have tremendous trouble governing without the necessary parliamentary team needed for doing so. All other parties who presently ask to vote Macron will turn on him afterwards.
1
It amazes me when French politicians, like Marine Le Pen, speak so much against immigration. Is she, like her father, aware of France's brutal colonial past over African territories in the early 20the century? But for the fierce resistance from African countries like Algeria, France would still be an occupying force in Africa.
8
The author asserts the conclusion that there has been "an epic disaster of the euro (sic)," tying it to "German imperialism with the struggling parts of European subjects", but I have to ask why and what is he talking about? I am not even certain what his statement means, but I do know that, if there is evidence of that conclusion, Douthat support his conclusion by stating the evidence. I do not believe there is such evidence and that that his conclusion is wildly imaginary.
This problem of evidence, and understanding what this statement is intended to mean, invariably arises when an issue or problem is over-intellectualized by idealogues who want to make a case but who really do not understand the underlying purpose of currency which enable markets within such institutions to flourish. It is, unfortunately, the kind of statement that belies a lack of knowledge of external markets which institutions like the EU enable. It is virtually certain that France, as the UK, will suffer mightily by detaching from the Euro and the EU, and that those who remain in it, like the Irish Republic, will flourish by taking advantage of the dissociation.
This problem of evidence, and understanding what this statement is intended to mean, invariably arises when an issue or problem is over-intellectualized by idealogues who want to make a case but who really do not understand the underlying purpose of currency which enable markets within such institutions to flourish. It is, unfortunately, the kind of statement that belies a lack of knowledge of external markets which institutions like the EU enable. It is virtually certain that France, as the UK, will suffer mightily by detaching from the Euro and the EU, and that those who remain in it, like the Irish Republic, will flourish by taking advantage of the dissociation.
18
and you speak of 'enabling markets'...
small countries like greece joined the eu, and were given and loaned great amounts of money for infrastructure...once a member, german and french conglomerates swarmed across the country, buying up small greek companies like those that made ovens, refrigerators, agricultual tools, textile mills etc...broke them up and closed them all..
today, nothing is made in greece - and everything is imported. (not to mention 30% unemployment). this is the new colonial reality between north and south in europe - and germany has been reaping the rewards of the single currency. that is what the author is referring to...
small countries like greece joined the eu, and were given and loaned great amounts of money for infrastructure...once a member, german and french conglomerates swarmed across the country, buying up small greek companies like those that made ovens, refrigerators, agricultual tools, textile mills etc...broke them up and closed them all..
today, nothing is made in greece - and everything is imported. (not to mention 30% unemployment). this is the new colonial reality between north and south in europe - and germany has been reaping the rewards of the single currency. that is what the author is referring to...
1
Macron will win the election. 5 years of more of the same. Paving the way for Le Pen (or even Melenchon) in five years time.
Or I will eat my shoe.
Or I will eat my shoe.
7
When Macron wins, will the left accuse France of not being ready for a woman president? Vive la France.
6
No, not being able to elect a woman to the presidency seems to be uniquely American.
1
I just love it when Ross and his ilk invoke "out-of-touch elites" as if they themselves have just come in from plowing the north 40 and sat down at their computers in their soiled overalls to explain the real world to NYT readers. So glad to hear that LePen and company have disavowed anti-Semitism (albeit a bit late--I'm sure they never really meant it anyway--and then of course de Gaulle didn't think too highly of Arabs either so I guess that makes it all right). Somehow it all boils down to the same old, same old: the rich get to keep their money, brown people don't get to mix with white people, and of course in Ross's case, we all go back to church.
113
Policies matter when you get elected, especially economic policies. Mr Douthat, I challenge you to compare her plans for Frances's economic future with those of Mr Macron.
Show me how she will improve the lot of the average French citizen........
Show me how she will improve the lot of the average French citizen........
16
We'll see what the French voters have to say ... they certainly did not choose their Socialist options.
If only there had been more energy and innovation in the Center.
The Center does not have to be a compromise between Right and Left.
The Center can be new... it does not need to be hollow and soft.
It can be a leading force... like the point of an arrow, or the tip of a rocket.
As the Left weakens, the risk of Demagoguery emerges on the Right.
But Le Pen is no Demagogue... she is working for this.
And she does not have Nate Silver saying she has an 80 percent chance of winning, the way Hillary did, which lulled her into complacency, and a flippant omission of the US rust belt.
If only there had been more energy and innovation in the Center.
The Center does not have to be a compromise between Right and Left.
The Center can be new... it does not need to be hollow and soft.
It can be a leading force... like the point of an arrow, or the tip of a rocket.
As the Left weakens, the risk of Demagoguery emerges on the Right.
But Le Pen is no Demagogue... she is working for this.
And she does not have Nate Silver saying she has an 80 percent chance of winning, the way Hillary did, which lulled her into complacency, and a flippant omission of the US rust belt.
4
No wonder Dothart likes LePen, she sounds like a republican
38
Ever been in Paris in May Mr. Doudthat? There is a fascist parade, small but voluble, that marches down the Rue de Rivoli. Watching it one feels like an extra in a Warner Brothers movie of the 1940s. It is both ridiculous and chilling. Marine le Pen has done a fabulous job of prettying up the ugliness of the FN, but its xenophobia and anti-Semitism still shine through the gloss. France was occupied by a fascist state in the 1940s, and I do not think that they will choose such a dangerous path on May 7th.
73
To reduce a person to their skin complexion is a grotesque and barbaric thought. Racism is a scourge and a menace for all of humanity. That Wagner or De Gaulle or Kant were racist doesn't diminish their accomplishments, nor excuse their ignorance and bigotry.
Islam, against which so many American and European bien-pensants are all ready to give lessons, had managed to thrive for 15 centuries under rulers of all skins, something that no other civilization has come close to matching. Christian and Jewish trading dynasties endured for generations. Christian church-building saw a boom during the first century of Islam. The muslim creed is fundamentally color-blind, as any advanced civilization should be. It's right for muslims to wish more of the West to acquire some of their mores, to become a better civilization.
That there is crisis for the past century concomitantly with the imperial occupations of the 19th century and the oil-fuelled wars in the 20th is a blip in a long millennial tradition of peaceful and prosperous global co-existence within the Arab caliphate then the Turkish sultanate.
Of the 200,000 entries into France every year, 70,000 are students, and 100,000 are europeans. Net migration is 30,000 a year, out of a population of more than 67 million. Where is the mass immigration Mr. Douthat is talking about?
Some French want the low-skilled immigrants that take jobs no French want, to stay invisible or change their facial features. That's low, and uncivilized.
Islam, against which so many American and European bien-pensants are all ready to give lessons, had managed to thrive for 15 centuries under rulers of all skins, something that no other civilization has come close to matching. Christian and Jewish trading dynasties endured for generations. Christian church-building saw a boom during the first century of Islam. The muslim creed is fundamentally color-blind, as any advanced civilization should be. It's right for muslims to wish more of the West to acquire some of their mores, to become a better civilization.
That there is crisis for the past century concomitantly with the imperial occupations of the 19th century and the oil-fuelled wars in the 20th is a blip in a long millennial tradition of peaceful and prosperous global co-existence within the Arab caliphate then the Turkish sultanate.
Of the 200,000 entries into France every year, 70,000 are students, and 100,000 are europeans. Net migration is 30,000 a year, out of a population of more than 67 million. Where is the mass immigration Mr. Douthat is talking about?
Some French want the low-skilled immigrants that take jobs no French want, to stay invisible or change their facial features. That's low, and uncivilized.
41
Some excellent points as expected from such an eminent Journalist but a respectful disagreement. The European Union is not a German dictatorship. It applies capitalistic rules. Any disagreement with that begs the question: Capitalism may not be perfect but what could be better? Sorry, tried that! As for Vichy, as a French who lost half in family in the resistance, I have a respectful request: Stop lecturing us and start worrying NOW about Vichy Americans.
186
The EU is one thing, the Euro is something different (and the point of Douthat's German Imperialism remark). What could be better? The EU with flexible currencies.
As an expat living in France, I can say categorically that she would be the worst thing that could happen to France. She is actually worst than 45 because she would divide the country even more than it already is. Her rhetoric is inflammatory on a hyper level. Her political "double speak" barely masks her contempt for Muslims, Jews and immigrants of any stripe. And her brand of fascism does not have the luxury of laws to keep her from committing atrocious acts. France will jump into the abyss if she is elected.
374
Another voice from Paris. What about the French people who have been harmed by immigrants? Do they even deserve a mention at all? As I asked another pro Macron commenter, who carried out the attack on Charlie Hebdo - French farmers, or Islamists? Who killed the policeman in Paris last month, Marine LePen or Islamists? And I really can't imagine that France is more divided now than the US is. Truly, I can't remember a time when Americans have hated each other this much, since I wasn't around in the 1860's.
2
A disgraceful performance. You endorse the 'alternative fact' the Le Pen has discarded anti-Semitism while just this month she contested France's official apology for its considerable role in the Holocaust and appointed a denier as party chief. Who do you suppose she was reaching out to with these gestures?
And you slide past her truly virulent Islamophobia by comparing her racist policies to de Gaulle's support for Algerian independence?! Please. Le Pen may be an adept politician--far more dangerous than her father--but she is still the candidate of a nostalgic white Catholic France. Nostalgia fantasies make terrible policy here in Trumpland, and they will do no good in France, especially if it means sealing off the country ("Build the Wall") and leaving the EU. I imagine it's tough finding anything good to say about the Right as it marches us off a cliff, but really, Ross, this is deplorable.
And you slide past her truly virulent Islamophobia by comparing her racist policies to de Gaulle's support for Algerian independence?! Please. Le Pen may be an adept politician--far more dangerous than her father--but she is still the candidate of a nostalgic white Catholic France. Nostalgia fantasies make terrible policy here in Trumpland, and they will do no good in France, especially if it means sealing off the country ("Build the Wall") and leaving the EU. I imagine it's tough finding anything good to say about the Right as it marches us off a cliff, but really, Ross, this is deplorable.
37
Mr. Douthat, You do not appear to know or understand the situation in France well enough to discuss it in a competent way. The de-demonization of the image of the Front National, which Marine Le Pen has been conducting for the past decade or so, is purely cosmetic. Racism, anti-Semitism, and xenophobia remain the core features of her own political identity as well as her party's. Her references to De Gaulle, the French Republic, and "laïcité (secularism) are hypocritical and opportunistic. Your highly questionable statements about French Moslems (I use this term because a large proportion of the Moslems who live in France are French citizens) seem to endorse those xenophobic positions.
26
This column was meant as a joke, correct? If Mme. Le Pen is elected it might be the end of the EU, and that will mean a European continent going back to nationalism. Which worked so well during the first half of the 20th century...
May I humbly suggest that Mr. Douthat should stick to pontificating about American politics, since he obviously has no clue whatsoever about European politics and, even worse, European history.
Not to mention the actual functioning of the European Union. BTW, "Brussels", with all of its "too much unaccounted power" has a 2014 EU budget of € 143 billion. Which is, for the entire EU budget in a union of more than 500 million people, roughly 60 % of what the US annually pays on interest for its debt alone.
This column is based on alternative facts, prejudice, and not much else. Perhaps Mr. Douthat should apply for a job in the current administration.
May I humbly suggest that Mr. Douthat should stick to pontificating about American politics, since he obviously has no clue whatsoever about European politics and, even worse, European history.
Not to mention the actual functioning of the European Union. BTW, "Brussels", with all of its "too much unaccounted power" has a 2014 EU budget of € 143 billion. Which is, for the entire EU budget in a union of more than 500 million people, roughly 60 % of what the US annually pays on interest for its debt alone.
This column is based on alternative facts, prejudice, and not much else. Perhaps Mr. Douthat should apply for a job in the current administration.
41
Please! No softsoaping for racists,and fascists. That is what Le Pen is. I always thought there were about 20% of all electorates that were economic and general idiots. I am wrong, these Mao Tse Tung voters represent a good 50 % of the electorate and they vote.
I did, however, enjoy seeing John Lindsay's name in print. He was a good man . Try to find a "moderate" Republican today.
I did, however, enjoy seeing John Lindsay's name in print. He was a good man . Try to find a "moderate" Republican today.
9
Ross, you are correct in many ways. A society has the right to enjoy its common values, literature, culture, religion, language, etc. But a tiny minority of self-ordained elites are determined to force rapid change.
I believe those who cry 'racism' at the those of us who believe a country has a right and obligation to enforce its immigration laws are following the Rules for Radicals: “The issue is never the issue. The issue is always the revolution.” Lie if you must to achieve your goals.
"Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. By “polarize” Alinsky means to “Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions."
France wants to remain French; Britain wants to remain British; Japan wants to remain Japanese; Mexico wants to remain Mexican; Australia wants to remain Australian; Sweden wants to remain Swedish; and America wants to remain American, and so on.
Perhaps those elite educators and UN officials and non-patriotic politicians who want to dilute or replace society after society in country after country could put their efforts towards improving the societies and civilizations of the Third World countries. The question is: can they tackle this task? If they cannot build a society, why not?
Must they disrupt the societies/civilizations of the Western World? Can they only tear down?
http://www.wnd.com/2011/09/345625/#4HKqZXgPZwREZDZA.99
I believe those who cry 'racism' at the those of us who believe a country has a right and obligation to enforce its immigration laws are following the Rules for Radicals: “The issue is never the issue. The issue is always the revolution.” Lie if you must to achieve your goals.
"Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. By “polarize” Alinsky means to “Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions."
France wants to remain French; Britain wants to remain British; Japan wants to remain Japanese; Mexico wants to remain Mexican; Australia wants to remain Australian; Sweden wants to remain Swedish; and America wants to remain American, and so on.
Perhaps those elite educators and UN officials and non-patriotic politicians who want to dilute or replace society after society in country after country could put their efforts towards improving the societies and civilizations of the Third World countries. The question is: can they tackle this task? If they cannot build a society, why not?
Must they disrupt the societies/civilizations of the Western World? Can they only tear down?
http://www.wnd.com/2011/09/345625/#4HKqZXgPZwREZDZA.99
9
I don't know for sure if Marine LePen is a racist. I know, however, that she coddles racists. She selected a known Nazi sympathizer to lead her Party in her temporary absence to campaign. She was reared by an unapologetic bigot and chose to follow in his political footsteps. Her well declared Islamophobia is blatantly and proudly bigoted.
Sure, Marine lePen has tried to scrub up the National Front and apply the sweet smelling make-up of reason on it, but beneath the rouge snd perfume, the rotten core of bigotry remains. Marine LePen is its face, a divider with no intention of uniting decent French citizens regardless of racial, ethnic, national or religious origin.
Sure, Marine lePen has tried to scrub up the National Front and apply the sweet smelling make-up of reason on it, but beneath the rouge snd perfume, the rotten core of bigotry remains. Marine LePen is its face, a divider with no intention of uniting decent French citizens regardless of racial, ethnic, national or religious origin.
15
", and being disowned by one’s father is a quite costly and dramatic act of political purgation."
A parent cannot disown their child in France and that is regardless of the child's age. This statement as written by Mr. Ross Douthat is utterly false.
While I did read the rest of the article you wrote, Mr. Douthat, I will admit that once you won't 'that alternate truth' I found everything else you wrote was viewed through the jaundiced eye.
As an immigrant to France I can tell you the culture is not similar to the USA culture. It is a different maze altogether. Anyone who thinks for a minute that EU countries are all the same except for the quaint dressings of old is going to find themselves in a sad situation. Each country has their own culture and that culture greatly influences the laws within that country's borders.
You need to fact check or prepare for sounding as ignorant as the current President of the USA.
A parent cannot disown their child in France and that is regardless of the child's age. This statement as written by Mr. Ross Douthat is utterly false.
While I did read the rest of the article you wrote, Mr. Douthat, I will admit that once you won't 'that alternate truth' I found everything else you wrote was viewed through the jaundiced eye.
As an immigrant to France I can tell you the culture is not similar to the USA culture. It is a different maze altogether. Anyone who thinks for a minute that EU countries are all the same except for the quaint dressings of old is going to find themselves in a sad situation. Each country has their own culture and that culture greatly influences the laws within that country's borders.
You need to fact check or prepare for sounding as ignorant as the current President of the USA.
24
The analogy you're using is inapt. France should be compared to Texas; the EU to the US. Or use an analog of Quebec and Canada.
The state or province could go it alone, yes, but it would involve many headaches with regard to currency and trade. Trading levels would probably decrease, so, too, tourism. Yes, cultural barriers are important and immigration could be better controlled (from countries outside the EU).
But the solution to a rickety EU is not to disentangle it (ditto for the US republic or the Canadian federation). Change the rules (something many countries are interested in doing), and even, perhaps, allow for replacement of the euro in some areas. the euro and the EU are not the same. The EU existed and served its member states well long before introduction of the euro.
The state or province could go it alone, yes, but it would involve many headaches with regard to currency and trade. Trading levels would probably decrease, so, too, tourism. Yes, cultural barriers are important and immigration could be better controlled (from countries outside the EU).
But the solution to a rickety EU is not to disentangle it (ditto for the US republic or the Canadian federation). Change the rules (something many countries are interested in doing), and even, perhaps, allow for replacement of the euro in some areas. the euro and the EU are not the same. The EU existed and served its member states well long before introduction of the euro.
9
Leaving aside her blatant displays of bigotry, if there is a case for Marine Le Pen, it seems it should be made without the support of Russia and Vladimir Putin, whose quiet and not-so-quiet financial, logistical and technical support for her and her Front National party deserve much greater scrutiny, in light of the damage that this kind of interference has caused in America's presidential elections. As journalism about the loans her party has received from Russia and the hacking attempts directed at her political opponent make obvious, it is clear she could never win the public over on the merits of her policy, not without Russia's dirty work to finance her campaign and undermine opposition.
14
Le Pen comes from a distorted & dangerous family political heritage and should not be elected But she’s different than Trump.
Le Pen is anti immigrant, but pro social safety net. Trump is anti both.
NYT 2011 article --- “Marine Le Pen, France’s (Kinder, Gentler) Extremist.” She says “The government should be entrusted with health care, education, transportation, banking and energy.”
The reporter says “….. in the U.S. she would sound like a left-wing politician…she says…. “Yes, but Obama is way to the right of us…proper government oversight would have averted the US financial crisis.”
That may be exaggerated---but it deserves commentary on our media.
NYT CEO Mark Thompson said on Times Talks that the Gop rw is more conservative than the EU rw.
How come no French politicians are running on platforms to dismantle their working health care, as in US as a 'threat to freedom'? And profits?
What’s the ratio of French CEO to average worker pay? Here it’s soared to 303 to 1.
If Le Pen were as socially rw for the middle class as our Gop is for ours, she wouldn’t have gotten the votes she does have. They’re used to better govt support of citizens’ basic protections.
Do French insurance/drug co’s donate millions to candidates, like here? Why not---don’t they want to influence politics to increase profits?
But don’t candidates need big money to beat the opposition? What an exotic country! Let's shift the discussion and discuss how France finances this election.
Le Pen is anti immigrant, but pro social safety net. Trump is anti both.
NYT 2011 article --- “Marine Le Pen, France’s (Kinder, Gentler) Extremist.” She says “The government should be entrusted with health care, education, transportation, banking and energy.”
The reporter says “….. in the U.S. she would sound like a left-wing politician…she says…. “Yes, but Obama is way to the right of us…proper government oversight would have averted the US financial crisis.”
That may be exaggerated---but it deserves commentary on our media.
NYT CEO Mark Thompson said on Times Talks that the Gop rw is more conservative than the EU rw.
How come no French politicians are running on platforms to dismantle their working health care, as in US as a 'threat to freedom'? And profits?
What’s the ratio of French CEO to average worker pay? Here it’s soared to 303 to 1.
If Le Pen were as socially rw for the middle class as our Gop is for ours, she wouldn’t have gotten the votes she does have. They’re used to better govt support of citizens’ basic protections.
Do French insurance/drug co’s donate millions to candidates, like here? Why not---don’t they want to influence politics to increase profits?
But don’t candidates need big money to beat the opposition? What an exotic country! Let's shift the discussion and discuss how France finances this election.
15
Pretty interesting commentary. He didn't utter the word god once. No church, no sermons, it was just an erudite good piece of opinion writing. Congrats. "And still I am learning" Cervantes
5
No! And who could write that headline? I question the judgement here.
8
Douthat says Le Pen is better than Trump, and thinks she's like de Gaulle. Come on. *Every* major French candidate is better than Trump. Even Dupont-Aignan (who polled 5% in the first round) is better than Trump. And Dupont-Aignan (who has since endorsed Le Pen) is way closer to de Gaulle than Le Pen is.
As for Macron being "callow", c'mon. Douthat is just jealous that Macron is young and handsome.
My advice to Douthat is to stop spouting off about French politics which he appears to know little about, and to go back to his first love, which is Vatican infighting.
As for Macron being "callow", c'mon. Douthat is just jealous that Macron is young and handsome.
My advice to Douthat is to stop spouting off about French politics which he appears to know little about, and to go back to his first love, which is Vatican infighting.
19
Is this an April Fool joke, Mr. Douthat? "Nobody seriously doubts Le Pen's competence, her command of policy, her ability to serve as president without turning the office into a reality-TV thunderdrome"? Are you serious? Where have you been the past two decades (not here in France where I have been) to watch her encourage confrontational division instead of community, xenophobic, chauvinistic nationalism instead of the strengthening of France's future--economic as well as social-- as part of a united Europe. Indeed, Mr. Douthat, have a look at the European idea which has served as Europe's surest guarantee of peace and freedom after two world wars caused precisely by what Marine Le Pen stands for today. God Save France, God Save the French from her.
17
Oh a former foam at the mouth fringista can be so centrist! Isn't it refreshing? What are you thinking Russ. You are not.
6
former means no longer ,multiply something by negative one and you've created not a former integer but a new and different one, can folk not change too? I passed through Chapel Hill this late winter, fleeing winter and my reality up north for a while, folk were nice to me, thanks for the memories.
Non.
10
You misunderstand the history of the Euro, the reasoning behind it, and the main actors. It was put forth by both French and German economists and technocrats, mainly Jacques Delors. It had nothing to do with German imperialism, but was an effort to create a currency union that would stabilize international monetary relations and give Europe equal weight as an economic power compared with the United States, Russia, and China. Delors and his co-founders did not take into account the cultural differences between the northern and southern countries of Europe and so the Euro has had a rocky ride since 2010. But Mario Draghi and his peers are working things out. Ending the Euro and well as the European Union, as Marie Le Pen promises to do, would be serious setback to the stabilization of the international monetary order and world peace.
Just because she is a better and more experience politician than Donald Trump does not give comfort. If Trump were a better politician, he might have already destroyed Obamacare, banned Muslim from the country, and started building the wall.
Just because she is a better and more experience politician than Donald Trump does not give comfort. If Trump were a better politician, he might have already destroyed Obamacare, banned Muslim from the country, and started building the wall.
310
Ross Douthat raises some interesting things here, but suggesting that Marine Le Pen is some sort of antidote to anti-Semitism is pretty bizarre. Or is he suggesting that anti-Semitism is okay as long as it's not Islamic anti-Semitism?
17
"To begin with, nobody seriously doubts Le Pen’s competence, her command of policy, her ability to serve as president without turning the office into a reality-TV thunderdome. Trump’s inability to master his own turbulent emotions is not an issue with his Gallic counterpart."
Excuse me? maybe M. Douthat doesn't know anyone, but I do --- people in France are HORRIFIED. Not everyone, because there are Fascists in France the same as there are in the great new USA.
Le Pen is as bad as Trump, birds of a feather.
Excuse me? maybe M. Douthat doesn't know anyone, but I do --- people in France are HORRIFIED. Not everyone, because there are Fascists in France the same as there are in the great new USA.
Le Pen is as bad as Trump, birds of a feather.
41
"but in the European context the challenges are more severe and the populist critique more compelling"
No, not really. American populism arises from the refusal of the mainstream even to see the challenges.
Immigrant assimilation in the US only touches on Islamic issues, but immigration, and what to do about a long past of illegal immigration, is deeply woven into the American political debate.
America may not have the euro problem, but it has a serious economic problem that again our mainstream won't even acknowledge, or just say is inevitable when they mention it at all.
Those are exactly this issues that Trump rode to victory.
It does not matter that American immigration problems come from our Southern border with Mexico and points further south, while France's come from its post colonial relationship with Algeria and Africa more generally.
It does not matter that the long failure to recover from the Great Recession in so much of our country is not linked to the one specific issue. What matters is the failure of recovery, the inequity of our economy as perceived by enough voters to elect the populist.
Deny it like Douthat. Scream to Resist. But they are still the issues, and the main parties still won't deal with them.
No, not really. American populism arises from the refusal of the mainstream even to see the challenges.
Immigrant assimilation in the US only touches on Islamic issues, but immigration, and what to do about a long past of illegal immigration, is deeply woven into the American political debate.
America may not have the euro problem, but it has a serious economic problem that again our mainstream won't even acknowledge, or just say is inevitable when they mention it at all.
Those are exactly this issues that Trump rode to victory.
It does not matter that American immigration problems come from our Southern border with Mexico and points further south, while France's come from its post colonial relationship with Algeria and Africa more generally.
It does not matter that the long failure to recover from the Great Recession in so much of our country is not linked to the one specific issue. What matters is the failure of recovery, the inequity of our economy as perceived by enough voters to elect the populist.
Deny it like Douthat. Scream to Resist. But they are still the issues, and the main parties still won't deal with them.
4
"Those are exactly the issues that Trump rode to victory".....that, and a very large side helping of racism.
The movement to correct inequity is ahead of the parties at this point. But one of them is at least trying.
The movement to correct inequity is ahead of the parties at this point. But one of them is at least trying.
2
There seems to be an idea that the mass immigration and subsequent cultural tensions is due to the permissiveness of the EU and, therefore, countries can keep their national identity by moving away from the Union and return to the splintering of Europe. The entrance of non-European nationals is due to poverty in Africa and Asia and violence and wars in the Middle East. Moreover, we cannot discount the responsibility of European colonial powers toward the territories they once occupied and the promises implicit or explicit made to them.
Getting out of the Union is not going to change circumstances. The tensions that are created by the presence of those already in will continue because there is no possibility of removing them, contrary to what Trump believes. If you don't want people to come to your country, the best solution is to work to improve conditions in their countries so that they don't need to come to yours.
If conditions continue to be desperate, there are no walls that will keep them away.
Getting out of the Union is not going to change circumstances. The tensions that are created by the presence of those already in will continue because there is no possibility of removing them, contrary to what Trump believes. If you don't want people to come to your country, the best solution is to work to improve conditions in their countries so that they don't need to come to yours.
If conditions continue to be desperate, there are no walls that will keep them away.
158
By historical standards, Le Pen's politics are not extreme right. And the "left" politics of France over the last 60 years have been destructive, France has moved to something like a 3rd world country in many ways.
3
The problem right wing authoritarianism, is that often, perhaps always, there's is the last "fair" election.
Another issue is that Putin is funding any and all anti-EU candidate, as he did with Trump and his henchmen, and possibly many GOP members.
Authoritarians start small, but eventually thwart freedoms, free-press and rule of law. Le Pen and all of her stripe are dangerous wannabe demigods. My wife and I were watching a do on Hitlers rise. Impressive, but ultimately evil. We have that evil rising all over the free world. Had we just jailed the defrauding bankers, thing might be different. But with LePen's, Erdogan's, Putin's and Trumps running amok, all our freedoms are in immense jeopardy.
LePen is a seedling of tyranny.
Another issue is that Putin is funding any and all anti-EU candidate, as he did with Trump and his henchmen, and possibly many GOP members.
Authoritarians start small, but eventually thwart freedoms, free-press and rule of law. Le Pen and all of her stripe are dangerous wannabe demigods. My wife and I were watching a do on Hitlers rise. Impressive, but ultimately evil. We have that evil rising all over the free world. Had we just jailed the defrauding bankers, thing might be different. But with LePen's, Erdogan's, Putin's and Trumps running amok, all our freedoms are in immense jeopardy.
LePen is a seedling of tyranny.
8
The author claims that, "there is no American equivalent to the Euro and immigrant-assimilation." Really? We just elected a president almost entirely because of his anti-immigrant and anti free trade rhetoric. And just like Trump, Le pen and this author are wrong on both accounts.
The alleged "assimilation problem" in France is simply not borne out by the facts. Recent, publicly available, Gallup and Pew Research shows France's Muslims mostly align with the general French population on valies like religious freedom, Democracy and much much more. This despite people like Le Pen who consistently demonize the population, set up a police state level of surveillance and ban the Burqa while allowing the habit and other similar fashion choices.
While, as Paul Krugman notes in this very newspaper, the Euro is bad for poorer countries in Europe like Italy and Greece, it has not hurt France much or at all. Meanwhile, the EU membership has other economic benefits that make up for the drag of a single currency.
Every time an American writes about the ails of immigration or the terrible culture and values of America's various minority populations we know right away the fudgy facts and barely veiled racism that actually underlie these claims. Now, let's not be confused when talking about France. The same prejudices are alive and well there.
The alleged "assimilation problem" in France is simply not borne out by the facts. Recent, publicly available, Gallup and Pew Research shows France's Muslims mostly align with the general French population on valies like religious freedom, Democracy and much much more. This despite people like Le Pen who consistently demonize the population, set up a police state level of surveillance and ban the Burqa while allowing the habit and other similar fashion choices.
While, as Paul Krugman notes in this very newspaper, the Euro is bad for poorer countries in Europe like Italy and Greece, it has not hurt France much or at all. Meanwhile, the EU membership has other economic benefits that make up for the drag of a single currency.
Every time an American writes about the ails of immigration or the terrible culture and values of America's various minority populations we know right away the fudgy facts and barely veiled racism that actually underlie these claims. Now, let's not be confused when talking about France. The same prejudices are alive and well there.
10
Jack,
NYC is not Paris. You might try visiting the real Paris and not the tourist Paris. France has a real assimilation problem, in fact most all of Europe does. Visit the suburbs of Paris and see for yourself how well assimilated the large Muslim minority really is. You could visit most cities in Europe and see the same thing.
Europe has a problem with tribalism today and has had for a very long time. We have had to intervene several times over the last 100 years to save them (Europe) from destroying themselves as a result of wars based on tribalism. Even with our help more than 100 million of Europe's citizens have died in wars and revolutions. Very little has changed there even today.
NYC is not Paris. You might try visiting the real Paris and not the tourist Paris. France has a real assimilation problem, in fact most all of Europe does. Visit the suburbs of Paris and see for yourself how well assimilated the large Muslim minority really is. You could visit most cities in Europe and see the same thing.
Europe has a problem with tribalism today and has had for a very long time. We have had to intervene several times over the last 100 years to save them (Europe) from destroying themselves as a result of wars based on tribalism. Even with our help more than 100 million of Europe's citizens have died in wars and revolutions. Very little has changed there even today.
A rather shallow article so uncharacteristic and unworthy of a Ross Douthat column. May I suggest Ross to read Le Monde, Le Point, Le Figaro and a few other newspapers and magazine on a regular basis before opining on the politics of France. May be he should stick to US politics and catholic theology.
49
Repulsive. You said it first, Ross. She is the standard bearer
6
If Macron becomes the "creature" of a new centrist consensus, then Douthat's thesis is blown to smithereens.
Ms Le Pen's overarching critique that France would be better off without the euro, the eurozone, and the EU is equally dubious. Mr Douthat might stroll through the long, sorry history of the French franc.
Ms Le Pen's overarching critique that France would be better off without the euro, the eurozone, and the EU is equally dubious. Mr Douthat might stroll through the long, sorry history of the French franc.
12
It seems Ross is taking a page from Trump's book: get attention by always choosing the most egregious personages to accompany one.
10
That "some of her positions are straightforwardly correct" does not make "a case for Le Pen." Why? Because posing a series of short, unconnected, conservative-sounding assertions is simply a display of things appearing to be knowledge, without a coherent and comprehensive grasp of the whole. Cheap shots at Macon do not help, either. Ross is a man in search of a column.
17
"Is There a Case for Le Pen?"
MORE utterly disingenuous sophistry from this writer?
Well, Hitler drastically increased industrial production and decreased unemployment! And Mussolini supposedly made the trains run on time! Were those "accomplishments" part of the "case" to be made for THEM?
My point is *not* that Le Pen is the same as either Hitler, Mussolini, or other despots (although she certainly seems to admire them!). But, rather, that some demagogues are SO beyond the pale that there's NO "case" to be made for them"!
There's no "good-bad" balancing act with such dangerous tyrant-wannabes! Rambling on as if there is really just sophistry of the very worst sort--and also nonsense that seeks to "normalize" the utterly abnormal and abhorrent.
Shame!
MORE utterly disingenuous sophistry from this writer?
Well, Hitler drastically increased industrial production and decreased unemployment! And Mussolini supposedly made the trains run on time! Were those "accomplishments" part of the "case" to be made for THEM?
My point is *not* that Le Pen is the same as either Hitler, Mussolini, or other despots (although she certainly seems to admire them!). But, rather, that some demagogues are SO beyond the pale that there's NO "case" to be made for them"!
There's no "good-bad" balancing act with such dangerous tyrant-wannabes! Rambling on as if there is really just sophistry of the very worst sort--and also nonsense that seeks to "normalize" the utterly abnormal and abhorrent.
Shame!
82
No. There is no case for Le Pen.
Her "disavowal" of anti-Semitism is clearly of the 'wink-wink, nod-nod' variety.
She is an anti-Semite and a blatant racist. Her closest associates are putrid neo-Nazis. She may owe more to Putin than Trump does (in several senses, something somehow not mentioned by Mr. Douthat).
I was more worried about Trump winning (he lost the vote but is currently the president) than I am about Le Pen. The French have lived under Nazism once. They will not willingly do so again.
Dan Kravitz
Her "disavowal" of anti-Semitism is clearly of the 'wink-wink, nod-nod' variety.
She is an anti-Semite and a blatant racist. Her closest associates are putrid neo-Nazis. She may owe more to Putin than Trump does (in several senses, something somehow not mentioned by Mr. Douthat).
I was more worried about Trump winning (he lost the vote but is currently the president) than I am about Le Pen. The French have lived under Nazism once. They will not willingly do so again.
Dan Kravitz
259
Of course there is a case for Le Pen. Mr. Macron is offering more of the same. More Unemployment,more Insecurity, More Frustration, More unrestrained Immigration, and possibly more terrorist attacks. He has no answers, no ideas, no way out of his country's mess. He has empty campaign slogans like work, boldness, humility....ones he has absolutely no intention or ability to execute. Le Pen offers a different path...it might work.
Le Pen certainly has made an effort to distance herself from her Party's sordid past. Maybe we shouldn't be too judgmental. In the 1960's the Democrats "disavowed" racism. But they had no problem working with committed racists like Senator James Eastland. They had not problem working with Sen Robert Byrd, who was an enthusiastic KKK member when he was younger, spoke for 14 hours against the 1964 Civil Rights Bill and had the dubious distinction of being the the only senator to vote against confirming both Thurgood Marshall and Clarence Thomas to the Supreme Court.
The European Union simply isn't working for France anymore. The EU is a maze of one-size-fits-all bureaucracy which has slowly eroded the role of national parliaments . The EU bureaucrats pushed too far, making too many mistakes (the euro, the Greek debt crisis,immigration, & so on).You can’t fault the French's instinct to look around & recoil, seeking as much sovereignty as possible by pulling out of the project that spawned such a mess. This move is overdue.
Le Pen certainly has made an effort to distance herself from her Party's sordid past. Maybe we shouldn't be too judgmental. In the 1960's the Democrats "disavowed" racism. But they had no problem working with committed racists like Senator James Eastland. They had not problem working with Sen Robert Byrd, who was an enthusiastic KKK member when he was younger, spoke for 14 hours against the 1964 Civil Rights Bill and had the dubious distinction of being the the only senator to vote against confirming both Thurgood Marshall and Clarence Thomas to the Supreme Court.
The European Union simply isn't working for France anymore. The EU is a maze of one-size-fits-all bureaucracy which has slowly eroded the role of national parliaments . The EU bureaucrats pushed too far, making too many mistakes (the euro, the Greek debt crisis,immigration, & so on).You can’t fault the French's instinct to look around & recoil, seeking as much sovereignty as possible by pulling out of the project that spawned such a mess. This move is overdue.
2
Mr. Smith,
You don't know what Mr. Macron is offering. To some extent he does not either. However he is clearly of high intelligence and apparently a man of good will.
Your disapproval seems to be more a disapproval of the European project than anything else. The countries in the EU have been at peace for longer than the historic norm. Count that against the sins you heap on their heads.
We know exactly what Ms. Le Pen is offering... blatant racism and a call to take France back to medieval times.
Dan Kravitz
You don't know what Mr. Macron is offering. To some extent he does not either. However he is clearly of high intelligence and apparently a man of good will.
Your disapproval seems to be more a disapproval of the European project than anything else. The countries in the EU have been at peace for longer than the historic norm. Count that against the sins you heap on their heads.
We know exactly what Ms. Le Pen is offering... blatant racism and a call to take France back to medieval times.
Dan Kravitz
2
@ Bob Smith
"More of the same" is preferable to a repeat of the first half of the 20th century.
It's too bad we can't briefly resurrect Robert Byrd, so he can remind you how he saw the error of his ways after the Civil Rights Act, and spent the REST OF HIS LONG LIFE denouncing racism, fighting against racism, and apologizing for his early racism. He never denied it, excused it, or pretended it was no big deal. He said it WAS a big deal and there was no excuse, and he repented, atoned, and made amends every chance he got. Too bad the Republicans don't have more "racists" of Robert Byrd's moral caliber.
"More of the same" is preferable to a repeat of the first half of the 20th century.
It's too bad we can't briefly resurrect Robert Byrd, so he can remind you how he saw the error of his ways after the Civil Rights Act, and spent the REST OF HIS LONG LIFE denouncing racism, fighting against racism, and apologizing for his early racism. He never denied it, excused it, or pretended it was no big deal. He said it WAS a big deal and there was no excuse, and he repented, atoned, and made amends every chance he got. Too bad the Republicans don't have more "racists" of Robert Byrd's moral caliber.
2
I think the Times has gone mad. This week we had climate "agnosticism"; we have a defense of LePen. I have cancelled my subscription and am not surprised that many others did as well.
Some papers--notably the Washington Post - - survived the election intact or even improved. Some didn't, notably the Times.
I'm waiting for columnists like Krugman to wonder how they stay at the Times.
Some papers--notably the Washington Post - - survived the election intact or even improved. Some didn't, notably the Times.
I'm waiting for columnists like Krugman to wonder how they stay at the Times.
34
As usual, logical and reasonable. But you've sidestepped the issue of her infatuation with Vladimir Putin. What is it about these right wing nationalists that they think that Putin is a model of governance. I smell a con artist, like Trump.
4
Simple question you should ask yourself before writing a column like this.
Would I write this SAME column if my religious group was being persecuted?
Also you and your editors should work on your timing:
https://theintercept.com/2017/04/27/le-pen-promotes-holocaust-denier-pla...
Would I write this SAME column if my religious group was being persecuted?
Also you and your editors should work on your timing:
https://theintercept.com/2017/04/27/le-pen-promotes-holocaust-denier-pla...
17
Yes. this exactly ^^
Ross is showing his lack of concern for all human beings outside his own personal background.
Ross is showing his lack of concern for all human beings outside his own personal background.
6
The think she will be elected. Despite all the reasons that she shouldn't be.
"Nobody seriously doubts LePen's competence?"
Really? Proven as it was in the European Parliament opposition where even Nigel Farage managed to be a functioning member?
John Lindsay was out of politics before you were born. Just bear in mind, he was the last man elected NYC Mayor without either the Republican or the Democratic party lines. Denigrate Lindsay all you like, but history will prove that his healing outreach in the aftermath of the King assassination kept the peace in New York while LA (Watts riots), Detroit, Newark and other cities burned.
Really? Proven as it was in the European Parliament opposition where even Nigel Farage managed to be a functioning member?
John Lindsay was out of politics before you were born. Just bear in mind, he was the last man elected NYC Mayor without either the Republican or the Democratic party lines. Denigrate Lindsay all you like, but history will prove that his healing outreach in the aftermath of the King assassination kept the peace in New York while LA (Watts riots), Detroit, Newark and other cities burned.
6
Comparing Le Pen to Trump is ridiculous. I'd make a better president than Trump. Almost everybody I know would.
9
Yes no american parallel for disaster of the euro, but there is a real parallel for immigration. H1B, H2B, H4, F1, OPT, L1 are all visas that promote destruction of US jobs.
These visas have resulted in the "temporary" immigration of millions of guest workers for indentured servitude in the hopes of a green card. These laws, which mainly started out of the immigration 1990 law, which had a stated goal of bringing in skills that the US does not have, yet these laws have been turned into fraud by the American out of touch educated elite, to give subsidies to large multi national corporations like Microsoft, Facebook, Intel, Cisco, and all the other Silicon Valley barons. Led by the senator from India Hillary Clinton who wanted to triple H1B, and the previous president Obama who created H4 and OPT out of thin air. These Silicon Valley barons will stop at nothing until the destructions of the middle class and ALL wealth is concentrated in the handful of a few large corporations. They really are no different from the railroads of a bygone era. Same human greed.
I hope France votes Le Pen in and slows the globalization process that rewards the elites and screws the middle class.
These visas have resulted in the "temporary" immigration of millions of guest workers for indentured servitude in the hopes of a green card. These laws, which mainly started out of the immigration 1990 law, which had a stated goal of bringing in skills that the US does not have, yet these laws have been turned into fraud by the American out of touch educated elite, to give subsidies to large multi national corporations like Microsoft, Facebook, Intel, Cisco, and all the other Silicon Valley barons. Led by the senator from India Hillary Clinton who wanted to triple H1B, and the previous president Obama who created H4 and OPT out of thin air. These Silicon Valley barons will stop at nothing until the destructions of the middle class and ALL wealth is concentrated in the handful of a few large corporations. They really are no different from the railroads of a bygone era. Same human greed.
I hope France votes Le Pen in and slows the globalization process that rewards the elites and screws the middle class.
7
Well...that didn't take long!
Ross is back at his way-right pulpit in no time flat...
Frankly, MANY of us "doubt Le Pen's competence...without turning the office into a reality-TV thunderdome" She, like her father, is a reactionary zealot--though currently clothed in "only sorta right wing garb" for the purpose of duping enough rural Frenchmen so that she can get elected. While she is NOT like Trump in the sense that he had/has NO actual plan in mind (and of course now famously says "this is a much more difficult job than I ever imagined"), Le Pen DOES has a plan---and it should scare the hell out of everyone in France--and the rest of Europe.
We in this country are already seeing what happens when a large minority manages to elect a "repulsive standard-bearer"--better the French go with Ross' "callow creature" than follow our lead over the cliff.
Ross is back at his way-right pulpit in no time flat...
Frankly, MANY of us "doubt Le Pen's competence...without turning the office into a reality-TV thunderdome" She, like her father, is a reactionary zealot--though currently clothed in "only sorta right wing garb" for the purpose of duping enough rural Frenchmen so that she can get elected. While she is NOT like Trump in the sense that he had/has NO actual plan in mind (and of course now famously says "this is a much more difficult job than I ever imagined"), Le Pen DOES has a plan---and it should scare the hell out of everyone in France--and the rest of Europe.
We in this country are already seeing what happens when a large minority manages to elect a "repulsive standard-bearer"--better the French go with Ross' "callow creature" than follow our lead over the cliff.
11
Marine Le Pen's CV looks different from Trump's, but that is no reason to feel confident about her and her agenda. She represents a far-right platform and is surrounded by Nazi sympathizers.
Those who abhor prejudice anywhere most oppose it everywhere.
Those who abhor prejudice anywhere most oppose it everywhere.
8
The French are SO utterly for leaving the E.U. and against the Obama-style globalist elites that the current Obama there, Hollande, did an LBJ and chose not to even run for his position again. Unless the young rich socialist guy becomes a Brexit supporter, LePen will win and it won't even be close.
Ms. LePen is so different from her brusque father that media types insisting she is just the latest Right-wing radical show they haven't really looked at all.
Do they want to continue to be France or just let it go and be a ''used-to-be'' like Detroit, Central L.A., or shooting-gallery Chicago?
Ms. LePen is so different from her brusque father that media types insisting she is just the latest Right-wing radical show they haven't really looked at all.
Do they want to continue to be France or just let it go and be a ''used-to-be'' like Detroit, Central L.A., or shooting-gallery Chicago?
7
Hey, Chicago here. Don't believe the media sensationalism about our city. The vast majority of our neighborhoods are peaceful and safe. A few gang heavy areas get all the ink and the press creates a false impression of the entire city. Come see for yourself.
4
If the engine in your ship of state is not running well, smashing it is not an option. You have to repair it or replace it with another type of engine or mode of propulsion, and do so while the ship is underway (drydocks for ships of state do not exist). The emotions behind both Trump and Le Pen are to smash the engine, and this leaves you adrift and powerless and prey for anyone who will give you a tow.
You need the callow creatures of a failed consensus, and you have to make it clear to them and yourselves that you want basic repairs and not duck tape, and that you will back them if the basic repairs check out as a good plan. Nobody (except Bernie) is offering anything like this program, and the failing consensus is that no basic repairs are possible.
You need the callow creatures of a failed consensus, and you have to make it clear to them and yourselves that you want basic repairs and not duck tape, and that you will back them if the basic repairs check out as a good plan. Nobody (except Bernie) is offering anything like this program, and the failing consensus is that no basic repairs are possible.
4
Donald Trump and Marine Le Pen couldn’t be more different. He’s a rational rightist as regards taxes and regulation, while she’s as much a French collectivist as anyone else running for president of France; and she wouldn’t discard regulation so long as it’s not EURO regulation. She also probably knows a ton more literature, science, economics and history than Trump.
She speaks for millions of French who are just as socialist, just as secular and just as opposed as she to a slow leaking away of traditional French culture by whatever means. She speaks for all these values for enough French to be regarded as mainstream, not as some “populist” Hitler. Macron needs to watch out, because his same-ol’-same-ol’ establishmentarian approach to governance has failed as profoundly as HRC’s, and France’s two-part election may end up as surprising to some as Trump’s was here. Yet what would she change, other than immigration policy, banning the head scarf and impelling a Frexit?
Her focus on cultural strangers among them may be the only thing she has in common with Trump. They both rebel against the dissipation of culture through an assault on it by hordes too numerous to effectively assimilate. And both have used the issue to their political benefit.
But despite her purging of party Le Penn probably remains a racist, while Trump never in his life gave much thought to race, one way or another, until the election forced him to acknowledge it as an issue requiring attention.
She speaks for millions of French who are just as socialist, just as secular and just as opposed as she to a slow leaking away of traditional French culture by whatever means. She speaks for all these values for enough French to be regarded as mainstream, not as some “populist” Hitler. Macron needs to watch out, because his same-ol’-same-ol’ establishmentarian approach to governance has failed as profoundly as HRC’s, and France’s two-part election may end up as surprising to some as Trump’s was here. Yet what would she change, other than immigration policy, banning the head scarf and impelling a Frexit?
Her focus on cultural strangers among them may be the only thing she has in common with Trump. They both rebel against the dissipation of culture through an assault on it by hordes too numerous to effectively assimilate. And both have used the issue to their political benefit.
But despite her purging of party Le Penn probably remains a racist, while Trump never in his life gave much thought to race, one way or another, until the election forced him to acknowledge it as an issue requiring attention.
13
These are fundamentally different people who could lead their respective nations in large part for the same primary reason: widespread rejection of a failed establishment.
Ross gives hostages to fortune in predicting a Macron victory. It could turn out very differently indeed.
Ross gives hostages to fortune in predicting a Macron victory. It could turn out very differently indeed.
8
Donald Trump thought about race when the Justice Department sued him in 1973 for discriminating against blacks who wanted to live in one of the Trump Organization's buildings. He thought a lot about it when he took out a full page ad calling for the death penalty for the Central Park 5, five African-Americans who were ultimately acquitted of a heinous crime. (He's never expressed a hint of regret for the ad.). He thought about it when he announced his candidacy for president and maligned an entire group of people, and when he doubled down later in his campaign by accusing a U.S. district judge of lacking impartiality because he was "a Mexican."
He thinks about race in much the same way that Le Pen does. The difference is, she's slightly more subtle in expressing her racism.
He thinks about race in much the same way that Le Pen does. The difference is, she's slightly more subtle in expressing her racism.
6
Trump never gave much thought to race except when it was either financially or politically expedient to do so.
5
Comparing Macron to Lindsay makes me not want to vote for him. But to vote for someone who in many ways is worse than Trump because she is smart, is very scary.
France, like our own country, ignored the disenfranchised and our price was Trump. Bernie knew it. Trump knew it. But the Democrats and Republicans ignored it.
Macron better learn from our mistakes and reach out to those who are finding it hard to make ends meet. France is facing the same dilemma--the lesser of the two evils. And there lies the problem. Who in the Democratic Party can unite America? I don't see any rising stars at the moment. Not Bernie, not Elizabeth who can bridge this nation.
France, like our own country, ignored the disenfranchised and our price was Trump. Bernie knew it. Trump knew it. But the Democrats and Republicans ignored it.
Macron better learn from our mistakes and reach out to those who are finding it hard to make ends meet. France is facing the same dilemma--the lesser of the two evils. And there lies the problem. Who in the Democratic Party can unite America? I don't see any rising stars at the moment. Not Bernie, not Elizabeth who can bridge this nation.
14
Bernie and Elizabeth are not "rising stars" in terms of age, but they are definitely rising to the occasion.
This is no time for ageism, along with all of the other -isms out there.
This is no time for ageism, along with all of the other -isms out there.
2
No. She is a fascist.
Maybe younger French citizens can learn from what we are going through with Mr. Trump. Hatred of minorities and romantic calls for an imaginary past do not constitute policies that are good for France.
Maybe younger French citizens can learn from what we are going through with Mr. Trump. Hatred of minorities and romantic calls for an imaginary past do not constitute policies that are good for France.
456
Marine is not a fascist, although sadly some find it easy to assign such labels to those with whom they disagree. The history and culture of France is by no means imaginary, but it surely is in jeopardy if the current policies continue. Depending on one's perspective, that might be bad or it might be good, but neither the French past nor the French future is imaginary.
2
She is a fascist, you say, and many virtue signalling readers rush to agree. But how do you define fascist? Is it enough just to be in disagreement that one can be labelled fascist? Evidence she is a fascist is conspicuously absent.
Luckily, I think the French are smarter and more humane that Douthat, who thinks he is more Christian than the Pope, and also presents himself as more knowledgeable about what is good for France and Europe than the French and Europeans.
378
The Vichy government was French.
The French rounded up their own Jews and handed them to Nazis to be killed.
How much smarter and how much more humane is that?
The French rounded up their own Jews and handed them to Nazis to be killed.
How much smarter and how much more humane is that?
7
Ellen, good point. Perhaps they learned from that. Something I think I should just remain silent. After all, it's their business. It was Ross Douthat's pretensions that needled me into commenting. Certainly we are not the only country that has trashed ourselves recently. Theresa May seems eager to sell the UK to the highest bidder, for example.
5
What the French want based on recent polling is a referendum on leaving the EU, although it is a narrow majority. The recent first round of voting makes clear that tremendous numbers of French, on both the left and the right, oppose much of what the EU stands for. Macron will be president, but no one should be naive enough to believe that he reflects the majority in France. He is the product of a deeply divided France, which is likely to be even more divided after his tenure.
3
Marine Le Pen would be no better for France than Trump has been for our country. No one knows how to solve the problem of homegrown terrorism, no one. Saying and doing are two entirely different things. How exactly does Le Pen propose to rise to the challenge of the assimilation of immigrants? It has always been an unanswerable question. People come to a new country, but many times never leave the old country nor religious customs behind, and have no interest in doing so. How do you overcome that? How much do you allow, particularly in terms of the practice of religious customs?
Right now the world appears to be looking for saviors. Let the "buyer beware". There are no saviors.
Right now the world appears to be looking for saviors. Let the "buyer beware". There are no saviors.
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First, why is it YOUR business to decide what is "better for France? Secondly, if millions of people refuse to respect legal borders and feel they have a right to move to another country, whether the actual citizens of that country want them there or not, why shouldn't citizens be able to just eject them? Why not? France belongs to the French, does it not? Do you really think you can just walk across the Canadian border and stay indefinitely soaking up Canadian social spending forever, and maybe breaking Canadian laws while you are there? Why should Britain, France, Denmark, the US give up their borders, especially when no one forces the Chinese or Indians to do that?
8
How about by limiting the amount of immigrants allowed into the country in the first place? And sending the criminal ones back to where they came from.
5
"No one knows how to solve the problem of homegrown terrorism, no one." That's deceptive. Most all of the "homegrown terrorists" are second or third generation Muslims. Mass immigration going back decades has caused a serious problem, and integration has generally failed and now terrorism has the country more or less under siege. It makes a lot of sense then to restrict immigration considerably, and for the French to be very tough against Islamic Fundamentalism. I don't think it would be going to far to revoke the citizenship of fundamentalists and deport them. M. Macron won't do that, that's for sure.
2
Le Pen is right: if Macron is elected, France will have 5 more years of the same. That is until there is no more France to speak of. Macron is not only pro Europe, he is also pro immigration, without clear limits. Officially, there is 10% of the population that is Muslim. I am sure it is more. There has been culture (read religious/culture) clashes before, but they will only increase. Macron said there is no French culture as such. That gives you an idea how he is willing to defend that way of life with its values.
I don't understand the demonizing of Le Pen when she is the only one willing to spend so much energy in defending France. If you listen to French artisans, farmers, etc, a lot of them say they earn the same or less then they did 15 years ago, and that is if they are not unemployed.
Macron and one of his mentors, Attali, said that companies dismissing workers due to their moving to Eastern Europe is a detail, or something to that effect. It shows their motive: not to protect citizens, just gaining power.
If the French elect Macron, that's it, I give up on them.
Marine Le Pen could have chosen a more lucrative path. She chose to fight to protect a country. I call that a patriot. Not a far right candidate like most of the media and pro Europe erroneously call her.
I don't understand the demonizing of Le Pen when she is the only one willing to spend so much energy in defending France. If you listen to French artisans, farmers, etc, a lot of them say they earn the same or less then they did 15 years ago, and that is if they are not unemployed.
Macron and one of his mentors, Attali, said that companies dismissing workers due to their moving to Eastern Europe is a detail, or something to that effect. It shows their motive: not to protect citizens, just gaining power.
If the French elect Macron, that's it, I give up on them.
Marine Le Pen could have chosen a more lucrative path. She chose to fight to protect a country. I call that a patriot. Not a far right candidate like most of the media and pro Europe erroneously call her.
81
She is a criminal of the same degree as François Fillon.
The best attribute of a person wanting to be a Leader of anything is their ability to understand the rules, regulations, laws and standards of that which they which to lead. That does not mean that they know how to break the ethics but that they respect them.
Marine Le Pen is a leech. She couldn't care less about France, France's Culture, or France's People. What Marine Le Pen craves is power and she doesn't care where it comes from. If the people of Patagonia voted her to be her President she would not hesitate to accept. Her crimes have proven her unworthiness to hold any office in which she will have access to money.
The best attribute of a person wanting to be a Leader of anything is their ability to understand the rules, regulations, laws and standards of that which they which to lead. That does not mean that they know how to break the ethics but that they respect them.
Marine Le Pen is a leech. She couldn't care less about France, France's Culture, or France's People. What Marine Le Pen craves is power and she doesn't care where it comes from. If the people of Patagonia voted her to be her President she would not hesitate to accept. Her crimes have proven her unworthiness to hold any office in which she will have access to money.
11
Thank you! Totally agree. France has been a great country, and a long time friend of the US.
2
Is patriotism not the last defense of a coward? Hitler was a patriot opposed to "foreign" elements, socialism, Modernist innovations, Political correctness, and economic weakness. Ross thinks one can lie down at home with Monsieur Papa La Pen and wake up sans fleas, sleep with fascists, anti Semites, and authoritarians and escape their anti-social goals.
I don't. She's not Hitler, and not Trump. But still she's all we detest about those 2 men.
I don't. She's not Hitler, and not Trump. But still she's all we detest about those 2 men.
6
At least France appears to be choosing the best candidate. You make a false equivalence slightly tilted in the direction of Le Pen.
On a continent with two World Wars in the last century, the EU stabilized the various countries from coming to blows over nationalist impulses; a considerable achievement now being challenged by the likes of Le Pen, Trump and Farage amongst others.
On a continent with two World Wars in the last century, the EU stabilized the various countries from coming to blows over nationalist impulses; a considerable achievement now being challenged by the likes of Le Pen, Trump and Farage amongst others.
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Remarkably uninformed on the Euro
The Euro was a French invention forced onto a reluctant Germany - whose leadership never allowed the population wedded to the beloved Deutschmark to vote on it.
Ms. Le Pen gave up mentioning the Euro as a problem. From today's edition of Le Figaro
Marine Le Pen ne mentionne plus la sortie de l'euro dans sa profession de foi
VIDÉO - La candidate du FN écarte l'idée d'une sortie de la monnaie unique, mais prône une renégociation des traités européens.
I won't translate it, as Mr. Douthat, writing about France should know its language.
http://www.lefigaro.fr/elections/presidentielles/2017/04/28/35003-201704...
The Euro was a French invention forced onto a reluctant Germany - whose leadership never allowed the population wedded to the beloved Deutschmark to vote on it.
Ms. Le Pen gave up mentioning the Euro as a problem. From today's edition of Le Figaro
Marine Le Pen ne mentionne plus la sortie de l'euro dans sa profession de foi
VIDÉO - La candidate du FN écarte l'idée d'une sortie de la monnaie unique, mais prône une renégociation des traités européens.
I won't translate it, as Mr. Douthat, writing about France should know its language.
http://www.lefigaro.fr/elections/presidentielles/2017/04/28/35003-201704...
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Bravo, Woof! Vous avez bien raison, et je suis d'accord! The problem with the Euro, Mr. Douthat, as your colleague Mr. Krugman has pointed out, is that it mandates financial unity without strong political unity. The answer is a European Union more politically connected.
The most relevant comparison I can make is this little thought experiment: Imagine the U.S. as the E.U., and imagine France as Texas. Marine Le Pen is former Governor Rick Perry, all bent out of shape about something he didn't like in Washington, hinting that Texas might secede.
The most relevant comparison I can make is this little thought experiment: Imagine the U.S. as the E.U., and imagine France as Texas. Marine Le Pen is former Governor Rick Perry, all bent out of shape about something he didn't like in Washington, hinting that Texas might secede.
5
Mr. Douthat's comment regarding the euro does not say anything about it's origins, and is an accurate description of its current effect. I think you're reading too much into what's clearly a campaign tactic. It's still likely that Le Pen's election would mean the end of the EU and thus the Euro.
@Woof
A free translation:
Marine La Pen no longer speaks of the exit from the Euro as a profession of faith.
Video: The candidate from the FN dismisses the idea of an exit from the single currency, but advocates a renegotiation of European treaties.
209/5000
Marine Le Pen no longer mentions the release of the euro in its profession of faith
VIDEO - The candidate of the FN dismisses the idea of an exit of the single currency, but advocates a renegotiation of the European treaties
A free translation:
Marine La Pen no longer speaks of the exit from the Euro as a profession of faith.
Video: The candidate from the FN dismisses the idea of an exit from the single currency, but advocates a renegotiation of European treaties.
209/5000
Marine Le Pen no longer mentions the release of the euro in its profession of faith
VIDEO - The candidate of the FN dismisses the idea of an exit of the single currency, but advocates a renegotiation of the European treaties
Vive Le Pen!
It's Vichy again!
Just Arabs she wants to exclude,
Political smarty
With a Far Right party
To mention Fascism is rude.
It's Vichy again!
Just Arabs she wants to exclude,
Political smarty
With a Far Right party
To mention Fascism is rude.
272
Larry, your verse is always needed. But in this case, in response to this column, extremely important. Thank you.
7
"This has been done, of course, in the hopes of gaining power. But that is how the purging of poisons always happens, and being disowned by one’s father is a quite costly and dramatic act of political purgation."
Ross, I find your defense of Le Pen puzzling at best, in a "the ends justify the means" sort of way. If Jalkh made the comments he did, there must be others lurking in the far right's underbelly, awaiting their own embarrassing ousters. It reminds me of how many purveyors of hate landed under Trump's umbrella, as the candidate casually accepted their support.
But nowhere in your column do you mention Marine's chumminess with Putin. More than a sympathizer, she's visited Moscow and shares many of his values---a weakened NATO, isolationism, nationalism--making it easy for him to sooner rather than later have his way with Europe.
As a Republican conservative, you aren't the slightest bit troubled by that?
Or are you a closet Trumpist, eager to go along to get along, urging other world countries to look inward not outward, because, heck, there is no (Russian) wolf at the door.
The French are in a far better position to know what's best for France than we are. If the consensus is building around Macron, it must be for a reason. The National Front was born of ugly sentiments and policies, and while a case can be made to limit future immigrants, does wholesale ejection of them and closing of mosques really align with modern French values?
Ross, I find your defense of Le Pen puzzling at best, in a "the ends justify the means" sort of way. If Jalkh made the comments he did, there must be others lurking in the far right's underbelly, awaiting their own embarrassing ousters. It reminds me of how many purveyors of hate landed under Trump's umbrella, as the candidate casually accepted their support.
But nowhere in your column do you mention Marine's chumminess with Putin. More than a sympathizer, she's visited Moscow and shares many of his values---a weakened NATO, isolationism, nationalism--making it easy for him to sooner rather than later have his way with Europe.
As a Republican conservative, you aren't the slightest bit troubled by that?
Or are you a closet Trumpist, eager to go along to get along, urging other world countries to look inward not outward, because, heck, there is no (Russian) wolf at the door.
The French are in a far better position to know what's best for France than we are. If the consensus is building around Macron, it must be for a reason. The National Front was born of ugly sentiments and policies, and while a case can be made to limit future immigrants, does wholesale ejection of them and closing of mosques really align with modern French values?
402
You are correct on one issue: the French are in a far better position to know what's best for France than we are. On May 7, when the French vote, one candidate will win.
And if the winner is Macron, he and his supporters must give serious consideration to the opinions/feelings/sentiments of those who did not support him.
Those who support Le Pen and many who did not/will not support her still want France to be France. Just as the British want Great Britain to be British; the Swedes want their country to remain Sweden; the Aussies want their country to remain Australia; the Japanese want their country to remain Japan.
The language and laws and religion and values and culture that unite a country are important. The insistence of a group of elites who are out-of-touch with the common man and woman has caused the nationalism that we see in every country. The desire of this small group of people to change the world to suit their views without consideration of the views of 90% of the population of the affected countries cannot have a good outcome.
And if the winner is Macron, he and his supporters must give serious consideration to the opinions/feelings/sentiments of those who did not support him.
Those who support Le Pen and many who did not/will not support her still want France to be France. Just as the British want Great Britain to be British; the Swedes want their country to remain Sweden; the Aussies want their country to remain Australia; the Japanese want their country to remain Japan.
The language and laws and religion and values and culture that unite a country are important. The insistence of a group of elites who are out-of-touch with the common man and woman has caused the nationalism that we see in every country. The desire of this small group of people to change the world to suit their views without consideration of the views of 90% of the population of the affected countries cannot have a good outcome.
5
Putin and Russian banks are funding LePen's campaign as well as attempting to exert the same types of influence they did in the US. I'm baffled that Doutat does not even mention this.
13
@MaryEllen: I'm not, since he deliberately ignores the Putin factor altogether. And yes, t hey have been meddling in the French voting and unleashing tons of fake news stories in an attempt to sway voters who don't care to take the time to research them.
3
From what I understand, Le Pen's major priority is to protect France's culture, language and way(s) of life from foreign influences, brought both by Eurocrats and by immigrants. Actually, such policies have been carried out in a country in some ways similar to France - in being dominated by bureaucrats and technocrats for decades, if not centuries. That country is Japan. Japan has practically no immigration, is closed to all but a tiny minority of refugees and is part of no economic union like the EU, unless one wants to include the Trans Pacific Partnership, which was torpedoed by Trump earlier this year. It is further isolated by its hostility with its East Asian neighbors, China and South Korea. Like the French, the Japanese believe strongly that their country is unique (and superior to all others), and that culture has to be protected at all costs.
The problem with this prioritising of cultural (and racial) purity is that it leads to cultural sterility. With no major stimulating influences flowing into Japan, the country's main cultural contribution to the outside world seems to be a lady, Marie Kondo, who teaches us how to make our living spaces neater by discarding those possessions which don't "spark joy." Perhaps cultural purity should be one of them.
The problem with this prioritising of cultural (and racial) purity is that it leads to cultural sterility. With no major stimulating influences flowing into Japan, the country's main cultural contribution to the outside world seems to be a lady, Marie Kondo, who teaches us how to make our living spaces neater by discarding those possessions which don't "spark joy." Perhaps cultural purity should be one of them.
114
Japan is doing just fine. The bigger Q is why it never get criticized in the western press for its immigration policy.
4
It is exceedingly easy to take an incorrect stance when one uses 12.4% of the necessary information!
1
Personally, I find French culture and heritage rich and meaningful. And France has been a long time ally. And voting for Le Pen would actually be a bold, revolutionary move, not a sterile or timid one. And who are you to insist that the French sacrifice their own lives, their jobs, their standard of living to support more globalism and social destruction?
7
I remember two figure inflation in France, something that hits very hard poor, low income and retired people. The "destructive common currency" means stability and is rather important.
The rant about "experiment in mass immigration" references to some pure statistics showing that yes, the large portion of French are of foreign origin. BUT France as US has been always an immigration country, a million Poles before and after WWI (mines), Italians, Spaniards, Portuguese, Vietnamese (200k boat people) and mass important of north-African workers in 50-60. And it was always problematic until it resolved itself, and France is still France.
I find is shocking to read in NYT opinions without substance, a repetitions of the FN idiotic propaganda.