I was a sophomore at Kent State on that weekend, May 1 to 4, 1970. I saw that it was the VVAW - the serious, steely-eyed guys in combat uniforms, some with missing limbs - who set that ROTC building on fire immediately after Nixon's "May Day Speech", in which he told the nation that, yes, the US is expanding the war into Laos. That fire started everything. It wasn't the SDS or the Yippies - the VVAW started and led that particular revolt because they had the resolve and the training to do so. Their mantra was echoed: "bring our brothers home".
5
My college French teacher was Vietnamese. Her father was an administrator in the French government. They fled during the US war. She said that HoChiMin wasn't communist, he was a nationalist who wanted one thing: the French out of his country. He appealed to the US and the UN, who ignored him. The only ones who would help him expel the French was Russia, so he took the only help he could get. Could the story really be that simple?
I was surprised to see at a VA office in Ca a photo mural about 6 feet long acknowledging that 3-4 million Vietnamese lost their lives in that war. Our tally is around 50,000, and we pinpoint it to the last man. We ballpark their casualties, give or take a million or so, and have no idea how many Iraqis and Afghanis have died from our war on their countries. It seems the idea of worthless lives is a big part of the trauma that can't seem to heal. Both the fact that our soldiers are forced to expend the lives of an Enemy who isn't an enemy at all, except that we are trying to kill them in their own country, and that the lives of our citizens/soldiers are entirely expendable for the sake of corporate profit. The invasion of Iraq was about nothing but the enrichment of Cheney & assoc, and in the course of that pursuit unleashed a hellish force we don't know how put back into the bottle, namely ISIL. there is no wisdom manifesting in our current administration, they are as egotistical as LBJ was. We need Smedley Butler.
I was surprised to see at a VA office in Ca a photo mural about 6 feet long acknowledging that 3-4 million Vietnamese lost their lives in that war. Our tally is around 50,000, and we pinpoint it to the last man. We ballpark their casualties, give or take a million or so, and have no idea how many Iraqis and Afghanis have died from our war on their countries. It seems the idea of worthless lives is a big part of the trauma that can't seem to heal. Both the fact that our soldiers are forced to expend the lives of an Enemy who isn't an enemy at all, except that we are trying to kill them in their own country, and that the lives of our citizens/soldiers are entirely expendable for the sake of corporate profit. The invasion of Iraq was about nothing but the enrichment of Cheney & assoc, and in the course of that pursuit unleashed a hellish force we don't know how put back into the bottle, namely ISIL. there is no wisdom manifesting in our current administration, they are as egotistical as LBJ was. We need Smedley Butler.
7
MACV? Saigon?...
You experienced the War, Jan?
Really?...
Try I Corps the same year your arm is wrapped around the beauty under your arm?
I served with 3rd Battalion, 5th Marines then and have nightmares to this day. Specifically, in late September a group of Vietnamese, who only wanted to grow their rice unmolested by politics, met at the request of the village chief. A communist insider planted a 40-pound box mine of plastic explosives (C-4) to let them know the Marine Corps couldn't keep them safe.
Around 6 am, an NVA or VC threw the switch, detonating the mine. Pick your nightmare, but this was is mine. It was a scene of terror. Out of their mouths, the Navy Corpsmen blew word-salad. The children of their blown-apart mothers and grandparents lost it; first knocking rocks against their heads on the LZ (landing zone) to escape their horror and then striking us at our waists, attacking their own helplessness.
Not one of my Marine friends will allow this memory to emerge -- ever; not one.
Young men fight against each other for ideals; when it's waged against innocents it crushes your soul.
I'm a died-in-the-wool Democrat. Articles like this, from folks who are convinced they have the market on the truth cornered, make me shake my head. The truth is as elusive as the heatwaves shimmering off the highway on a hot summer's afternoon.
Or a morning in Quang Nam Province in late September 1970.
You experienced the War, Jan?
Really?...
Try I Corps the same year your arm is wrapped around the beauty under your arm?
I served with 3rd Battalion, 5th Marines then and have nightmares to this day. Specifically, in late September a group of Vietnamese, who only wanted to grow their rice unmolested by politics, met at the request of the village chief. A communist insider planted a 40-pound box mine of plastic explosives (C-4) to let them know the Marine Corps couldn't keep them safe.
Around 6 am, an NVA or VC threw the switch, detonating the mine. Pick your nightmare, but this was is mine. It was a scene of terror. Out of their mouths, the Navy Corpsmen blew word-salad. The children of their blown-apart mothers and grandparents lost it; first knocking rocks against their heads on the LZ (landing zone) to escape their horror and then striking us at our waists, attacking their own helplessness.
Not one of my Marine friends will allow this memory to emerge -- ever; not one.
Young men fight against each other for ideals; when it's waged against innocents it crushes your soul.
I'm a died-in-the-wool Democrat. Articles like this, from folks who are convinced they have the market on the truth cornered, make me shake my head. The truth is as elusive as the heatwaves shimmering off the highway on a hot summer's afternoon.
Or a morning in Quang Nam Province in late September 1970.
11
Mr. Barry--I would like to thank you for your service. Not for the years you served in the US army, but for your brave and resolute opposition to an immoral, illegal and cynical war of cruelty.
5
bob g,
Was it Moral for the North Vietnamese Junta to wantonly kill South Vietnamese
and North Vietnamese who opposed the North Vietnamese Dictatorship ?
Was it Legal for the North Vietnamese to wage war on the South ?
and Was it not Cynical for North Vietnam to say it was a War of Liberation
and Cruel for the North Vietnamese to kill as they did in Hue in the failed
'Tet-Uprising" in 1968 ?
'
Was it Moral for the North Vietnamese Junta to wantonly kill South Vietnamese
and North Vietnamese who opposed the North Vietnamese Dictatorship ?
Was it Legal for the North Vietnamese to wage war on the South ?
and Was it not Cynical for North Vietnam to say it was a War of Liberation
and Cruel for the North Vietnamese to kill as they did in Hue in the failed
'Tet-Uprising" in 1968 ?
'
3
What do you say to a young troop lying in the stinking dust of QL-4, his flack jacket soaked in his own blood, his back shredded by a B-40 rocket, his eyes rolling back in his head, telling you he knows his fate, med evacs unable to land because of the intensity of incoming fire? Maybe 18-years old. What do you say when you sit in your hootch and write his parents?
The Tet offensive, 1968. Forty-nine years later, I don't know the answers. 58,193 U.S. troops dead; 2-3 million Vietnamese dead. The souls of how many more, dead?
For what? Pride?, arrogance?, the willful ignorance of political leaders?, the disengagement of us all?
Remember, and keep close to you, Thomas, and Bert Bunting, McNally, Kirkendahl, Allan Perrault, Mike Downey, Bob Bouchet. Forever young.
War is easy. Peace is hard. Do you, Trump, have the balls to keep us out of war?
The Tet offensive, 1968. Forty-nine years later, I don't know the answers. 58,193 U.S. troops dead; 2-3 million Vietnamese dead. The souls of how many more, dead?
For what? Pride?, arrogance?, the willful ignorance of political leaders?, the disengagement of us all?
Remember, and keep close to you, Thomas, and Bert Bunting, McNally, Kirkendahl, Allan Perrault, Mike Downey, Bob Bouchet. Forever young.
War is easy. Peace is hard. Do you, Trump, have the balls to keep us out of war?
13
Wow! What a reminder of the absurdity and abuse of the Vietnam War. Perhaps also a warning for our unscrupulous ignoramus-in-chief, before his foolishness and braggadoccio leads to another 'unnecessary' war. Of note, after the Vietnam war, a Vietnamese general did remind us of our depravity in escalating a fight that their own folks were battling for millennia...until the U.S. escalate the horrors to the nth degree. And for what, exactly? I know, you can't answer that. So, haven't we learned anything yet? We shall see soon enough.
2
mm,
Who openly threatens launching Nuclear tipped missiles toward
Japan/North Korea and the US ?
Please stop the inaccuracies.
Who openly threatens launching Nuclear tipped missiles toward
Japan/North Korea and the US ?
Please stop the inaccuracies.
1
~1961 MAJ Armand Reiser, youngest major in Air Force, third on the promotion list, air attaché for Indochina, LTC slot, wrote to his direct superior, Air Force Chief of Staff, the president, and the joint chiefs, "The assassination of rural school teachers, doctors, and nurses in the past year has risen from 600/year to 6,000. There are fewer than 6,000 left. Soon there will be no positive influence in the countryside."
At the Hawaii radio relay station an unauthorized, not in his chain, BG ordered him to rewrite to ". . . there has been a better than 90% reduction in assassinations with fewer than 60 in the past year."
Reiser told him that an officer does not lie to his superiors, the BG was not in his chain of command. Reiser had his personnel records disappear for five years and was promoted, not as the youngest LTC but as in the middle of the pack.
Years later as deputy chief of air force intelligence for Eastern Europe he had access to his communications and discovered that under his signature his report was altered to the lie in Hawaii. Shades of Iraq with good intelligence for WMD (from deception leaks) that were outweighed by suppressed, stronger intelligence against WMD. I execute such perps of treason.
For Indochina: one 105 mm howitzer on shores of Nam could knock out all passing freighters and tankers in the adjacent Straits of Malacca. South of Australia not feasible.
Only good french resistance was communist, France was unstable, Russia might march in.
At the Hawaii radio relay station an unauthorized, not in his chain, BG ordered him to rewrite to ". . . there has been a better than 90% reduction in assassinations with fewer than 60 in the past year."
Reiser told him that an officer does not lie to his superiors, the BG was not in his chain of command. Reiser had his personnel records disappear for five years and was promoted, not as the youngest LTC but as in the middle of the pack.
Years later as deputy chief of air force intelligence for Eastern Europe he had access to his communications and discovered that under his signature his report was altered to the lie in Hawaii. Shades of Iraq with good intelligence for WMD (from deception leaks) that were outweighed by suppressed, stronger intelligence against WMD. I execute such perps of treason.
For Indochina: one 105 mm howitzer on shores of Nam could knock out all passing freighters and tankers in the adjacent Straits of Malacca. South of Australia not feasible.
Only good french resistance was communist, France was unstable, Russia might march in.
1
What's striking is that EVERY letter here expresses absolute condemnation of American involvement in Vietnam, and of pretty much all military engagement since that awful war. Yet...even in the face of the almost unanimous anti-war sentiments of the US intelligentsia, the wars continue, often undeclared...and, as in Vietnam, against 'enemies' that are far too impoverished to fight back: in Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Somalia, Libya and now, Syria. The US government is, beyond doubt, governed by an invisible cabal of profiteering warmongers...a tiny clique that has no mercy whatsoever for the millions who die and suffer as a result of their actions. Where is the opposition? It seems that the American people have become enured to the awful truth, and are being led like sheep to the point of utter moral collapse.
8
The American people vote for war every time. Every anti-war candidate has been trounced in elections. Even John Kerry lost to the blood-spattered monster George Bush, due to Kerry's earlier stance against the Vietnam War.
This is a profoundly sick country and it's not just the leadership.
This is a profoundly sick country and it's not just the leadership.
5
Jeeze, the NYT has been cheerleading every intervention since Desert Storm. I don't see that there is any anti-war intelligentsia. If anything the so called intelligentsia seem to be rabid war mongers.
6
Do you mean the same John Kerry who as Secretary of State
supported the wars America waged during the Obama Administration.
Who forgot to ask himself who should be the last American to die
in Iraq/Syria/Afghanistan...
supported the wars America waged during the Obama Administration.
Who forgot to ask himself who should be the last American to die
in Iraq/Syria/Afghanistan...
5
The Vietnam War taught the Gov't an important lesson. The absolute necessity of stopping the draft. We have now been at war for 16 years, do people even notice? If we had a draft these wars would have ended long ago . Now its the poor and people of color who enlist because they have few other options for a better life. Maybe collage tuition is so high now to keep those kids enlisting?
There is nothing new in these wars , fake truth its always been used to get the public enraged and let their young go to war.
Old men lie and young people die , as old as human history.
Dedicated to the Genius, Gary Washenik killed in 1971 ,medic in Vietnam.
There is nothing new in these wars , fake truth its always been used to get the public enraged and let their young go to war.
Old men lie and young people die , as old as human history.
Dedicated to the Genius, Gary Washenik killed in 1971 ,medic in Vietnam.
3
Finally, the Times is switching its Vietnam narrative from glorifying the hideous conflict to an honest tale of what was really happening.
9
We need more people like you Jan.
Thank you for your service.
Nguyen Giap
Nguyen Giap
3
I served as a Hospital Corpsman 1967-1971. Twenty Six months at Camp Lejeune and Chelsea Naval Hospitals caring for the wounded. In between I served as a platoon Corpsman the spring of 1969 in the northwest corner north of Khe Sanh hard by The Laotian border and the DMZ. The Marine Corps had been on the DMZ for four years. Shocking is a word that only partly describes my reaction to the condition my marines were in. Their fatigues were in tatters. The jungle rot for some went from their toes up past their buttocks. Our company was stretched so thin our squad sized patrols were down to maybe eight or nine. Because of the attrition over those years on the DMZ our squad leaders were 19 and 20 year old Lance Corporals and Corporals who in their way were intrepid as they carried that responsibility. The futility of our efforts were apparent even then and in the years after my service that futility was a source of a kind of rage that I worked hard on transforming into a source for motivation to be damned sure that Vietnam would not be my undoing. What I hold most dear to me is that as such young men, kids really is how we did assume a responsibility to each other that few across our society ever touch. It was one of the artifacts of service that made readjustment that much more of a demand upon us. Finishing up at Chelsea Naval I joined VVAW to participate in the operation against the Christmas bombing of Hanoi. I wanted the killing, dying and maiming on all sides to stop.
6
Moderators censor me and I am a VVAW, a comrade of Jan Barry...
4
I served as a rifleman in central south Vietnam. My last tour of duty was at Camp Drum in up state New York. As a sergeant I was told by motor pool soldiers that that revelled in running their big trucks over Vietnamese peasant woman walking on the side of the roads. In Vietnam, i had been transferred t legal services because of my law school education where I had to call in a special military judge from Saigon because of the abuse of our own troops by inexperienced officers. Young troops were being locked up in conex metal shipping containers and no holes were poked in the walls and the doors were kept shut while the troops were almost roasted alive. The situation in my unit was out of control with half the large helicopter battalion under military charges, including murder of Vietnamese civilians. I volunteered for military service out of a sense that the privileged such as myself should not leave the burden of service to only the poor, non college deferred persons. I learned from experience that war is hell on earth and that we fought that war only to increase the profits of the military industrial complex that President Eisenhower had warned the nation about in his final address.
13
This essay, unlike most essays about Vietnam, told the truth.
We weren't defending the South Vietnamese from Communism; we were fighting the South Vietnamese to prevent them from choosing communism or at least a government that was not a puppet of Washington.
The Vietnam Vets knew the awful, ghastly truth of our miserable war in Vietnam, of the "free fire zones" where we shot at anything that moved, of
"the search and destroy missions" which mostly consisted of just destroying, and of Orwelliian newspeak which called burning down villages and maiming people "pacification."
While Viet Vets spent years in hell (I think of Bob Dylan's lyrics which obliquely allude to Vietnam, "sent 10,000 miles to the mouth of a graveyard"), chicken hawks who never spent a day in uniform, men like Strom Thermond and Jesse Helms and plenty of Northern Demos too) ranted about our noble war against Communism
Some political scientists say that people adopt the political philosphy that is ascendant when they first thought about politics. (For most people, that is their teens). I was bit by the political bug in 1968, when I was 10. (I lived next to a subway station in brooklyn, and could be at a demonstration in 45 minutes, and I was overwhelmed with love and awe when I saw banners flying and men with black armbands) In the Spring of 1968, we thought the next president would be RFK or Gene McCarthy and that life would be, in the parlance of those days, groovy. And then...
We weren't defending the South Vietnamese from Communism; we were fighting the South Vietnamese to prevent them from choosing communism or at least a government that was not a puppet of Washington.
The Vietnam Vets knew the awful, ghastly truth of our miserable war in Vietnam, of the "free fire zones" where we shot at anything that moved, of
"the search and destroy missions" which mostly consisted of just destroying, and of Orwelliian newspeak which called burning down villages and maiming people "pacification."
While Viet Vets spent years in hell (I think of Bob Dylan's lyrics which obliquely allude to Vietnam, "sent 10,000 miles to the mouth of a graveyard"), chicken hawks who never spent a day in uniform, men like Strom Thermond and Jesse Helms and plenty of Northern Demos too) ranted about our noble war against Communism
Some political scientists say that people adopt the political philosphy that is ascendant when they first thought about politics. (For most people, that is their teens). I was bit by the political bug in 1968, when I was 10. (I lived next to a subway station in brooklyn, and could be at a demonstration in 45 minutes, and I was overwhelmed with love and awe when I saw banners flying and men with black armbands) In the Spring of 1968, we thought the next president would be RFK or Gene McCarthy and that life would be, in the parlance of those days, groovy. And then...
5
Long ago and far away now. Cleveland Heights HS Class of 1965 will always remember our classmates Fred West and Timothy Spring who died in that damned Vietnam war. They shall forever be in our hearts.
6
Vietnam Veterans Against War is a well known organization. I applaud this author and veteran for participating in it. However, this article suggests that he played a role in founding it, without substantiation. The organization was in full swing by the time he chose to participate. It is unfortunate that the American public is only now learning about this response by Vietnam era veterans.
3
I'm sure the skill of the writing here plays a part, but I cannot read about this period of American history without weeping. I believe any American with a heart and a mind was in some way traumatized by this terrible war, especially those of us with young and impressionable hearts and minds.
As someone who escaped conscription because of the luck of the draw, I can only imagine the experience of those who volunteered or were forced to go- if an article like this brings me to tears, how must it affect those who served there?
And then there are the Vietnamese people themselves whose suffering from our military onslaught dwarfs the tragedy of it in our own country.
This all begs the question, "what can we hope to accomplish in Afghanistan"? We've already probably poured more blood and treasure in that small country than its GNP many times over. If our side is incapable of holding back the Taliban after all these years of help, why do we hope that the effort will eventually bring peace on the terms we would prefer?
It used to be fear of the Communist dominoes- now it has become the fear of the Islamic Caliphate dominoes. The Industrial Military Complex needs to come up with a different excuse.
As someone who escaped conscription because of the luck of the draw, I can only imagine the experience of those who volunteered or were forced to go- if an article like this brings me to tears, how must it affect those who served there?
And then there are the Vietnamese people themselves whose suffering from our military onslaught dwarfs the tragedy of it in our own country.
This all begs the question, "what can we hope to accomplish in Afghanistan"? We've already probably poured more blood and treasure in that small country than its GNP many times over. If our side is incapable of holding back the Taliban after all these years of help, why do we hope that the effort will eventually bring peace on the terms we would prefer?
It used to be fear of the Communist dominoes- now it has become the fear of the Islamic Caliphate dominoes. The Industrial Military Complex needs to come up with a different excuse.
11
History records that we killed over several million Vietnamese, along with several million Cambodians (before Pol Pot) and one fifth of the population of Laos all of whose population continually are maimed by left over mines and bombs not yet recovered, all to feed the war profits of our elitist so-called educated politicians and corporations. Our losses were minimal in comparison.
7
I believe Jan and I lectured/debated/whatever each other in the early 70s in NYC and elsewhere ... I still feel the same way about the war now as I did then. I did three tours — two in special ops (and I returned for six weeks in the mid 90s as well) — and would do it all over again. A soldier's raison d'être is to fight. If you're going to send them in harm's way, at least have the courtesy (not to mention fortitude) to back them up. The anti war movement of the time (read ANY of the books/thoughts of the North Vietnam military and politicians) fortified the enemy, caused deaths (literally) and led to the loss of South Vietnam. It's the same reason the French lost. The only thing I would have changed, in retrospect, would have been implementing some basic/mandatory education about the country and its history. That and being treated like a human when I returned home.
3
Writing as someone who was, for years, active in the anti-war movement, I want to assure you that it was our always our intention to make continuing the American war more difficult. If that had the effect of "fortifying" those the American government had declared "enemy" so be it. Despite the endless propaganda, the Vietnamese were never my enemy. Significantly, your suggestion that the anti-war movement contributed to the "loss" of South Vietnam is contradicted by the fact that the United States never owned any part of Vietnam. What should be remembered is that Washington was in the process of waging an aggressive war in clear violation of international law and any recognizable notion of morality.
8
As it was then remains today, a vocal minority, far below critical-mass level, opposes this nation's hyper-militaristic behavior. Far to few however sit on the sidelines for there ever to be change.
1
A cousin joined the Army and was happy to serve his country in the Vietnam war. We all tried to dissuade him but he thought he was being patriotic. He even re-enlisted. Then his views changed. He saved a lot of his comrades by stepping on a land mine and keeping his foot on it while they diffused it. He came back and joined Vets Against the War. He had, (he was sure), an FBI tail who followed him around and it angered him. He later became a lawyer.
8
So pleased to read this article today, when I have been hearing more threats from Trump & Co about North Korea. America has already had a war with Korea - and of course Australia tagged along as well - in the 50s. It did not end well and a lot of good men were killed, wounded and destroyed, leaving a lot of good women in the same situation - which is always forgotten. Vietnam was an appalling atrocity for all concerned, and should never have occurred. Could Americans ask why it is so easy for the military to take over a whole population with lies and secrets? We joined in that so-called adventure with more lies and secrets and the results for our young men were exactly the same. To add insult to their injuries they were treated badly on their return. Surely there are enough problems in the US which need attention, without directing your gaze to Asia and who you can bomb next.
Congress has abandoned its role to ensure that we do not get into military "misadventures" of long duration. Congress has become a rubber stamp, giving the defense establishment a blank check once a President sends troops into harm's way. What we need are members of Congress who require the White House to justify any decision to deploy troops and we need the PEOPLE to buy in. It's time to look inward and find out if the American PEOPLE support these unending wars. There should be a law enacted that requires the draft to be activated if our military is deployed for 90 or a 180 in active hostilities . . . lets find out if the PEOPLE believe in the cause that Americans are dying for abroad. AND, such legislation should require untouchable funds set aside for the medical care that will be necessary for those we send to fight. Are Americans willing to sacrifice at all for our military engagements? We need to start looking in the mirror and find out if we support decisions that send American sons and daughters off to war. The volunteer military has made it all too easy for the Government to exploit them without proper accountability.
5
In November, 1967 I met Dave, a Vietnam vet, who joined us at freshman classes in a large Boston university. His chilling, real stories of Nam in that Back Bay apartment we shared, pulled me into an awareness of a larger world from which my high school experience had effectively cushioned me and my classmates. I hadn't seen grown men in tears before. Hadn't experienced anything, really. My father gave him a ride to his parents' home that Christmas. Dave was not back for the spring semester.
6
VIETNAM Feels like another universe to me. I, too, was a child of the 60s, though not an active protester, but rather a supportive observer. We naively, innocently thought that our protests would move humans toward ending wars. How little we knew of human nature. For when perceiving a threat our brains respond with reflexive behavior in a fight or flight paradigm. When we are calm, we can take the extra 3 seconds we need to access our frontal cortex, where the higher mental functions occur, such as logic, reasoning, decision making, planning, oragnization, frustration tolerance, and others. War, ironically, is a survival modality that depends on the death of one or both parties as a possible outcome. Calm reason allows for survival in the long term. The answer is to understand the brain science that explains why we go to war. And to seek to destress our lives.
1
I wrote a song about one of the leading activists in the VVAW movement, after seeing footage of the April '71 demonstration in a BBC documentary called People's Century, made in the late '90s. You can find my song, 'Winter Soldier,' on YouTube, with an image of my friend at that protest accompanying the music. I wrote the song not in reference to the politics of the Vietnam War, but out of respect for the VVAW as young people who were willing to change their minds, to speak out and question authority they had once trusted, like much of America itself at that time. Starting with my song, which I sent to him, we have become good friends. I travel to the US to stay with him and his family. For me, as someone from a generation younger, it's been an enriching experience. I have learned so much from him about the Vietnam War and America and about the impact of war service on young men and women - impacts that last a lifetime. I am pleased the Times recognised the Winter Soldiers in this series. They deserve that recognition.
2
Even after commenting earlier, I came back to see what others are saying.
What's amazing to me is how little the government and its supporters want younger Americans to know about the war. As a university professor, when I ask my students, they have been told about as much today as we were told in the late 1960s, despite the incredible explosion of knowledge (about everything) since then. The one thing the powers-that-be DON'T want talked about is the anti-war movement WITHIN the US military. There's a marvelous movie about it called "Sir, No Sir!" (available from Netflicks, etc.) and it's about this movement. David Zeiger--I hope I've got his last name right--made it and it's wonderful. One can debate the efficacy of the larger anti-war movement, but to me, you cannot debate the impact it had on many enlisted types as well as some younger officers. I think this movie should be shown in every high school US history class in the country.
Books like "Dispatches" and "Kill Everything that Moves" are also real important sources, and both undercut the lies that the war was built upon and widely propagated by government, corporate and military officials. The current wars in the Middle East are nothing more--in different forms and situations--than the War in Vietnam repeated.
What's amazing to me is how little the government and its supporters want younger Americans to know about the war. As a university professor, when I ask my students, they have been told about as much today as we were told in the late 1960s, despite the incredible explosion of knowledge (about everything) since then. The one thing the powers-that-be DON'T want talked about is the anti-war movement WITHIN the US military. There's a marvelous movie about it called "Sir, No Sir!" (available from Netflicks, etc.) and it's about this movement. David Zeiger--I hope I've got his last name right--made it and it's wonderful. One can debate the efficacy of the larger anti-war movement, but to me, you cannot debate the impact it had on many enlisted types as well as some younger officers. I think this movie should be shown in every high school US history class in the country.
Books like "Dispatches" and "Kill Everything that Moves" are also real important sources, and both undercut the lies that the war was built upon and widely propagated by government, corporate and military officials. The current wars in the Middle East are nothing more--in different forms and situations--than the War in Vietnam repeated.
9
My husband, 68 years old, went to one of our state's VA clinics today.
He was 18 when he went to Vietnam. So the cardiomyopathy he has developed is a little enigma to several medical professionals.....absolutely no familial history, none. There are several other medical issues also.
He has been a teacher for his lifetime career, going back to school as an adult on the GI bill, with wife and one child. He taught his whole career on a Native American reservation. He knows and is respected by numerous generations where he taught and still subs. A mild tempered man, great dad and grandpa, and loving husband.
But 50 years after the fact, he is still plagued by the United States engagement with the country of Vietnam. Why, I want to know? Why were we there? Certainly there was nothing gained in any respect. Devastation physically and emotionally by so many.
Back home in those days I never did demonstrate in the anti-war protests. Not that I thought the war was ok, but I really couldn't come to terms with the injustice that maybe would have been felt by my classmates and relatives who were or had been in Vietnam.
We've gone to the Vietnam Wall numerous times and attended other Vietnam vet events.
So the other day, I asked my husband what he would have thought of me anti-war demonstrating. His answer: he wouldn't have blamed me one bit.
It brought tears to my eyes.
I want to beg President Trump - please do not send our citizens off to war - anywhere.
He was 18 when he went to Vietnam. So the cardiomyopathy he has developed is a little enigma to several medical professionals.....absolutely no familial history, none. There are several other medical issues also.
He has been a teacher for his lifetime career, going back to school as an adult on the GI bill, with wife and one child. He taught his whole career on a Native American reservation. He knows and is respected by numerous generations where he taught and still subs. A mild tempered man, great dad and grandpa, and loving husband.
But 50 years after the fact, he is still plagued by the United States engagement with the country of Vietnam. Why, I want to know? Why were we there? Certainly there was nothing gained in any respect. Devastation physically and emotionally by so many.
Back home in those days I never did demonstrate in the anti-war protests. Not that I thought the war was ok, but I really couldn't come to terms with the injustice that maybe would have been felt by my classmates and relatives who were or had been in Vietnam.
We've gone to the Vietnam Wall numerous times and attended other Vietnam vet events.
So the other day, I asked my husband what he would have thought of me anti-war demonstrating. His answer: he wouldn't have blamed me one bit.
It brought tears to my eyes.
I want to beg President Trump - please do not send our citizens off to war - anywhere.
11
He won't hear you over the sound of the MOAB. Happens to all of them once they get into that Oval Office.
3
My ex-husband and I helped one veteran escape when we lived in Berkeley, where major protests were going on with freedom marches of thousands of people.
2
A year after I returned from Vietnam and left the service in 1970, I was a Vietnam Veteran Against the War. Still am. We used to say we were in this antiwar campaign "for the duration."
Here's the first song from my new CD, Golden Boy, coming out in France 4/28. This song, Pick Up My Guidon, and the CD, is dedicated to my brothers (and sisters, though most of us were male) in the VVAW.
Somebody wrote a song about the chimes of freedom,
They're flashing in my head,
They're not invisible, you can see 'em,
And they'll be flashing even when I'm dead,
My brothers and sisters, Oh say can you see,
We're still here marching strong,
I may go down, but I'll be living in the knowledge
That my comrades'll carry on.
And they'll pick up my guidon (3x)
Pick my guidon up and push on home!
We started out in a common crucible,
Most had it worse than I;
But we all learned lessons that we took to heart,
And we've come to guide our whole lives by.
After all these years I can only say
I'm proud to serve with y'all.
I'll be in this Outfit, come what may,
Until my final curtain call.
And you'll pick up my guidon (3x)
Pick my guidon up and push on home!
This year is the 50th anniversary of the founding of the only organization I have ever belonged to for life, which my brother Jan writes about here. The anniversary celebration will be taking place in Chicago during the week of August 9 to 13, details to be announced. Hopefully Jan Barry will be there with us!
Here's the first song from my new CD, Golden Boy, coming out in France 4/28. This song, Pick Up My Guidon, and the CD, is dedicated to my brothers (and sisters, though most of us were male) in the VVAW.
Somebody wrote a song about the chimes of freedom,
They're flashing in my head,
They're not invisible, you can see 'em,
And they'll be flashing even when I'm dead,
My brothers and sisters, Oh say can you see,
We're still here marching strong,
I may go down, but I'll be living in the knowledge
That my comrades'll carry on.
And they'll pick up my guidon (3x)
Pick my guidon up and push on home!
We started out in a common crucible,
Most had it worse than I;
But we all learned lessons that we took to heart,
And we've come to guide our whole lives by.
After all these years I can only say
I'm proud to serve with y'all.
I'll be in this Outfit, come what may,
Until my final curtain call.
And you'll pick up my guidon (3x)
Pick my guidon up and push on home!
This year is the 50th anniversary of the founding of the only organization I have ever belonged to for life, which my brother Jan writes about here. The anniversary celebration will be taking place in Chicago during the week of August 9 to 13, details to be announced. Hopefully Jan Barry will be there with us!
1
It strikes me that unjust wars are those that obscure truth.
Viet-Nam was a lie from the beginning, only our government was too stupid to realize it; this despite the fact that the French had warned us about putting our foot into a war against the vestiges of colonialism.
Why did it take the release of the Pentagon Papers (ironically, drawn up under the orders of McNamara) for the U.S. public to learn this?
The parade of lies was reborn during the Iraq invasion, and we now have an administration that lays them out as an act of faith to their believers.
There is a human tendency for gullibility. Only when a bit of cynical curiosity gets injected into the mix, in a search for truth, do we approach an understanding of what is really happening.
Viet-Nam was a lie from the beginning, only our government was too stupid to realize it; this despite the fact that the French had warned us about putting our foot into a war against the vestiges of colonialism.
Why did it take the release of the Pentagon Papers (ironically, drawn up under the orders of McNamara) for the U.S. public to learn this?
The parade of lies was reborn during the Iraq invasion, and we now have an administration that lays them out as an act of faith to their believers.
There is a human tendency for gullibility. Only when a bit of cynical curiosity gets injected into the mix, in a search for truth, do we approach an understanding of what is really happening.
4
I didn't start out being against the Vietnam War. I was a Jr. officer in the Navy. My dad was a disabled vet. My mom was a nurse in WW II. I was "Patriotic". As a Jr. officer stationed aboard the air craft carrier USS Constellation I helped organize a vote in our home port of San Diego. The question was "Should the Connie stay home?" We won the vote, but the ship went back to war anyway. Some of us stood our ground. Other followed orders. Today, my ball cap says PEACE. When I meet my maker, my grand kids will know what I stood for.
6
My parents and grandparents were also veterans of WII. My two grandfathers were also veterans of WWI. One was wounded at the Battle of Meuse Argonne and the other, a Marine in the first world war, was a Navy corps man who was at Normandy in the second war. My dad was in the Army Engineer Corp in the Pacific and mom was a Navy WAVE, Petty Officer 2nd class. So, yeah, we were all patriotic. Originally they all thought I did the right thing when I enlisted. But all of us changed our minds. Vietnam was not about protecting our nation or truly saving South Vietnam. It was about a war machine running amok, unable to be turned off. My mom is still with us at age 94. If we bring up Vietnam she still gives a look of disbelief that such a tragic war was brought upon us. Eventually even veterans of prior wars protested because it was their sons and daughters on the front lines. A lot of guys wear caps with "Vietnam Veteran" emblazoned on the front. I wear a cap with Disney characters and vote for candidates who oppose war. All the wars.
4
Interesting. I'm curious to see what the perception will be going forward. Vietnam impacted so many lives either directly or indirectly that veteran anti-war mobilization, while difficult and brave, was probably inevitable. Just looking at the comments here you get a sense of how many people were willing to speak out. I'm not sure the same could be said for any subsequent war.
Just to give you an idea: The VA estimates roughly 7.3% of living Americans ever served in the military as of 2014. Out of these 22 million individuals though, over half are aged 60 or above. Not surprisingly, the percentage is expected to fall over time.
As the burden of failed military endeavors becomes less of a shared national experience, you wonder if veterans will every be able to level such a broad anti-war protest ever again. Perhaps we need universal compulsory service. Everyone needs to put a hand in before we as a nation go to war.
Just to give you an idea: The VA estimates roughly 7.3% of living Americans ever served in the military as of 2014. Out of these 22 million individuals though, over half are aged 60 or above. Not surprisingly, the percentage is expected to fall over time.
As the burden of failed military endeavors becomes less of a shared national experience, you wonder if veterans will every be able to level such a broad anti-war protest ever again. Perhaps we need universal compulsory service. Everyone needs to put a hand in before we as a nation go to war.
5
I appreciate this opinion - as a veteran during that period, and one who as a member of the army volunteered immediately after President Johnson's Gulf of Tonkin speech to go to Vietnam, I have stark memories of finally coming out, without reservation, against the policies of the U.S. in Vietnam. My main memories of that era, however are mostly constricted to a peace march by veterans through San Francisco . . . I was very proud to march (lots of our marchers were actually in wheelchairs) with some of the remaining veterans of the Spanish American war . . . I don't remember the year of the march, but I remember the pride of marching with so many heroes . . . Thank you, Jan.
4
Just another old ground-pounder stopping to thank the NYC for the series, Barry for writing it, and the eloquence of commenters posted. All of that is good for my soul, and not a peep from the love it or leave it crowd! For just a moment today, the 75th anniversary of the Doolittle raid, I caught myself resenting not having had the chance to be in a "good" war. The moment passed.
3
Thank you, Mr. Barry, and thanks to your brave colleagues, too.
Back in the sixties and early seventies, practically everyone knew someone who had been in Viet Nam. In the graduate dorm where I lived, we had a survivor of the siege of Que Sanh, a tunnel rat, and a prisoner of war. Do most people today even know that the Viet Nam War happened, let alone what lessons should have been learned from it? As George Santayana wrote, those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. (Case in point: the Iraq war.)
Back in the sixties and early seventies, practically everyone knew someone who had been in Viet Nam. In the graduate dorm where I lived, we had a survivor of the siege of Que Sanh, a tunnel rat, and a prisoner of war. Do most people today even know that the Viet Nam War happened, let alone what lessons should have been learned from it? As George Santayana wrote, those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. (Case in point: the Iraq war.)
3
I wish veterans now weren't getting such poor treatment by the VA and the different assistance groups. Flag waving up front, and abandonment and deception behind the scenes. It's disheartening to have amputees or PTSD sufferers declared as not combat-rated and have Congress silent on the matter. The care for the wounded is worth tax dollars.
4
I was against the war long before I went to Vietnam, while I was there in the U.S. Army, and after I returned to the world in late 1968. I don't think I "officially" joined Vietnam Veterans Against the War, if you could do that, but I did the usual marches and protests, wearing an old fatigue jacket with my Spec Five rank and name patch. The photo at the top of this article brings back a lot of memories. Right on!
The war in Vietnam was intended to confine the boundaries of countries under communist governments to where they had been at the end of World War II as part of the strategy guiding the Cold War by the U.S. The threat was not from the government in Hanoi but from the governments in Moscow and Beijing seeking to extend the boundaries of countries under communist rule as part of a unified effort to make the whole world into social states evolving towards communism and the end of history. But in fact, Hanoi just wanted Vietnam to be one country, it was not interested in spreading the revolution any further. The regime in the North would fight to unite Vietnam under the government in the North but that was the extent of what they wanted. In the end, that is what happened. The point of contention today remains whether any other outcome was possible. At the time, the United States thought that communism was some kind of existential threat and going to war to contain it was perfectly reasonable. The shock was that the people in Vietnam mostly wanted peace and to be allowed to live their lives as they had for a thousand years, did not understand nor want to understand communism, and so they were not all convinced that the U.S. was doing them a favor and Americans were kind of disappointed. In the end, the U.S. was fighting for an independent South Vietnam with more enthusiasm that many of the South Vietnamese, which is why the effort failed.
4
Marvelous series on looking back at the Vietnam conflict 50 years on, simply wonderful. This is truly the Times at its best. I loved its 150-year retrospectives on the Civil War as well, which subscribers can still enjoy in the Times Machine site or elsewhere in the archival sections of the web site. Jan Barry's thoughtful and humorous contribution to the Vietnam '67 series is both meaningful and healing, the hallmark of the important work of sifting through memories both traumatic and superficial to help survivors of mass disaster, of which war is a seminal and paradigmatic example, to not only cope but thrive.
2
Nobody who did not experience the war can presume to understand what veterans felt about it. However, the information about why we were fighting that war was abundant and clear to anyone who studied it. We were not going to defeat the North, militarily. Attempting to do so would likely bring China into the conflict as defeating the North Koreans did in the Korean conflict, so that was never our strategy. Yet, we wanted to build a nation that could live side by side with the North and to for it to be left alone. It was part of a greater containment of Communism policy which was part of the Cold War with the U.S.S.R. and China. The trouble was, only a minority of the people in the South had any wish to fight the North to remain independent, most people just did not care so long as they were left in peace. The regimes that were attempting to create a separate state were led by the minority and they were not of a mind to tolerate dissent of any kind let alone a liberal democracy, so we were dealing with desperate people who were using every means to secure and to keep in power. This meant that the majority of the people ended up being mistreated and mistrusted by two extremely belligerent groups, the anti-communists and the communists. That meant that as long as the communists were willing to fight there could be no peaceful solution. When America withdrew, and it must eventually, if the conflict continued, the victor would be the North not the South.
2
I was a combat infantryman in the Ninth Infantry Division stationed in Long An ( I think hat was the spelling) in the Mekong delta near Saigon just after the TET offensive in1968.
And, yes, we were young. I was 23 and the oldest man in my company including the officers and NCOs.
I remember how repelled I was when our so-called "Zippo Squad" burned down a village from which we had received sniper fire once too often.
I remember the frozen smiles on the faces of Vietnamese villagers and writing home that I now knew what it must have felt like to be one of Hitlers's storm troopers passing through some conquered French village.
I didn't immediately join VVAW on my return to my hometown of E.St.Louis, the Kent State shootings were a precipitating factor, and then I heard a speech by VVAW activist Toby Hollander who Jan probably remembers, and joined in time to have a VVAW buddy throw my Army Commendation Medal back at the Whitehouse at the antiwar demonstration that the article mentions.
My experience was that the anti-war movement treated VVAW like all-stars. They knew the credibility of our anti-war activism had in the halls of Congress, and in the streets when we took actions like occupying the Statue of Liberty.
That proud tradition continues in the work of Iraq Veterans Against the War, whose work I have supported by working in an anti-war coffee house called "Coffee Strong" located just outside the gates of Joint base Lewis McCord here in Lakewood, Wa.
And, yes, we were young. I was 23 and the oldest man in my company including the officers and NCOs.
I remember how repelled I was when our so-called "Zippo Squad" burned down a village from which we had received sniper fire once too often.
I remember the frozen smiles on the faces of Vietnamese villagers and writing home that I now knew what it must have felt like to be one of Hitlers's storm troopers passing through some conquered French village.
I didn't immediately join VVAW on my return to my hometown of E.St.Louis, the Kent State shootings were a precipitating factor, and then I heard a speech by VVAW activist Toby Hollander who Jan probably remembers, and joined in time to have a VVAW buddy throw my Army Commendation Medal back at the Whitehouse at the antiwar demonstration that the article mentions.
My experience was that the anti-war movement treated VVAW like all-stars. They knew the credibility of our anti-war activism had in the halls of Congress, and in the streets when we took actions like occupying the Statue of Liberty.
That proud tradition continues in the work of Iraq Veterans Against the War, whose work I have supported by working in an anti-war coffee house called "Coffee Strong" located just outside the gates of Joint base Lewis McCord here in Lakewood, Wa.
12
I remember, with gratitude and admiration, the huge number of soldiers who came to realize that they were not "fighting" in a "war," but rather participating in a massive crime that had to be stopped. And then they did something to stop it, in the VVAW and other protest groups. If the so-called "Vietnam war" had any heroes, it was these soldiers. Thank you for reminding us, Jan Berry. In today's political climate, we need to be reminded that resistance sometimes works.
4
There was at least one bona fide hero in the Vietnam War; CWO Hugh Thompson (Wiki him) and they did their best to get him killed before he could testify.
2
I was a military dependent in Europe in the early 1970s. Not in the military myself, I was coming up on draft age (ended up in the first group to register and not have a number pulled.) The effects of the moral malaise brought on by Vietnam half a world away were evident.
Some folks unready for "the world" either were shipped direct to Europe or chose that assignment. Why? The heroin was good and cheap. Not my thing.
I did (still do) enjoy my hashish, much healthier stuff for the mind and body post-tour from SEA. Near our housing area was another installation my brother told me about, as they always seemed to have good hash when other sources might come up short. I visited a few times, otherwise being leery of copping in anyone's barracks. Long-haired dependents tended to stick out. Always a great party when I did visit, further details unneeded, as are exact locations and any names that might be remembered at this remove.
Rumored to be rather secret, but we just walked right in the front gate when I visited and then asked around for who was holding. Turns out the facility was the primary strategic long-haul shortwave receiving site for Europe. The radios were working, in repair, & what else did higher command need to know? Learned how to make my first bong from a guy's older brother, just in from Thailand.
The Pentagon thought they were subverting the Vietnamese. Instead, war sowed the seeds of the Cold War's cultural destruction, just like Beatles music in the USSR.
Some folks unready for "the world" either were shipped direct to Europe or chose that assignment. Why? The heroin was good and cheap. Not my thing.
I did (still do) enjoy my hashish, much healthier stuff for the mind and body post-tour from SEA. Near our housing area was another installation my brother told me about, as they always seemed to have good hash when other sources might come up short. I visited a few times, otherwise being leery of copping in anyone's barracks. Long-haired dependents tended to stick out. Always a great party when I did visit, further details unneeded, as are exact locations and any names that might be remembered at this remove.
Rumored to be rather secret, but we just walked right in the front gate when I visited and then asked around for who was holding. Turns out the facility was the primary strategic long-haul shortwave receiving site for Europe. The radios were working, in repair, & what else did higher command need to know? Learned how to make my first bong from a guy's older brother, just in from Thailand.
The Pentagon thought they were subverting the Vietnamese. Instead, war sowed the seeds of the Cold War's cultural destruction, just like Beatles music in the USSR.
The Veterans against the war gave the movement substantial credibility. Several of them worked with the group with which I became affiliated at Ft Bragg in 1969-70, GIs United Against the War, sponsored by the Quakers in Fayetteville NC. Nixon deserved his fate. The mood of the country in '68 and the mass protests should have impelled any leader to end that war quickly. But Nixon played games with the American public, sabotaging the peace talks to demonstrate a very Trump like "only I can do it" ruse. The war dragged on spreading to Cambodia as he continued to dupe the public with his Vietnamization promises. Resentment remains for our military industrial complex as it doesn't seem we've learned the lessons of this misadventure.
4
Why, when discussing the war, is it so rare to hear anyone
criticising North Vietnam for waging war on the very people they
declared they were liberating ?
I do not think the French should have ever colonised Indo-China.
I do not think that the French should have been allowed to go back into
Indo-China after World War II, nor should the US have supported the French.
Yet I cannot find any moral reason why North Vietnam cannot be
criticised for killing more Vietnamese than the United States.
criticising North Vietnam for waging war on the very people they
declared they were liberating ?
I do not think the French should have ever colonised Indo-China.
I do not think that the French should have been allowed to go back into
Indo-China after World War II, nor should the US have supported the French.
Yet I cannot find any moral reason why North Vietnam cannot be
criticised for killing more Vietnamese than the United States.
5
Cursory research shows that some academics from USA universities conclude that the march of communism was stopped in Vietnam. It's so easy to become wise in hindsight, even though I can't see much wisdom in most of these comments. We Australians on a pro-rata basis sent more and lost more soldiers than Americans. I spent my 22nd birthday as a conscript 'over there' often wondering beyond the politics of 'all the way with LBJ' as to what we were achieving. Even so, many innocent citizens, were grateful at our presence. They were being targeted and slaughtered for resisting the North Vietnamese campaign to recruit young South Vietnamese into the Viet Cong ranks. On one occasion we tried to rescue three young Vietnamese from the Viet Cong only to find them shot dead as we advanced. The anti-war protests in the USA brought about similar movements in my country where we on our return were treated as pariahs. Even today it is my belief that at the centre of such protests there was an element of 'camouflaged' sedition. Many Americans would be surprised to know that the Australian Task Force moved away from the Americans, we regarded as cowboys, undisciplined and a liability to us in combat...and socially. What really happened to that beautiful Aussie singer I filmed on stage who was the next day accidentally shot dead by an American officer? Love to see the NYT investigate that bit of hush-hush. I went and would return should my country call me.But that's the folly of democracy.
2
Threw a couple of medals over the White House fence in '71 along with a few friends.
For me, the lesson of that time is to keep up the pressure.
Whether it's the Women's March or the Scientist's March, a one-off is almost meaningless.
The constant, peaceful drumbeat just might win the day.
For me, the lesson of that time is to keep up the pressure.
Whether it's the Women's March or the Scientist's March, a one-off is almost meaningless.
The constant, peaceful drumbeat just might win the day.
I still have that 1st Casualty Press book on my shelf, Jan. We lost the anti-war struggle too and the only salve for me would have been McNamara, Nixon and Henry Kissinger indicted for war crimes. Twelve years of war, extended for political advantage. A never-ending wrong.
1
There have always been veterans who have protested against future conflicts. But just saying no is not so simple.
I am entertained, darkly, or something else, at how we are STILL re-fighting VN, we will do so forever, long after the last of THIS gen is gone, much as we refight WW1, whose 100 year anniversary, of US entry, is this month. Probably Cannae or Troy also.
=
'MY' war was VN, I'm 72, and the wisdom, or other attribute, of the draft (Selective Service System), permitted me to finish my graduate education, so, as I wrote at the time, 'me I let my brothers do the dying.' It was all very unfair, 'selective' indeed, the then-summary was, those who went to war, were hicks and Hispanics (informal reference rhymes with hicks). School exemption was not just for the rich, I wasn't, but money always helps.
I was anti war, as of 1967, b/c I saw that the locals would not fight for their country, why should we.
Which of us knows geo-strategy anyway, Cold War and China - VN and China fought a war after we left...
=
From my corner, personal history, the VVAW were irrelevant to policy, and the war was unaffected by them, likewise the medal tossing in DC, I was there....
The war ended, in MY retro history b/c the other side was prepared to bleed more for it than we were, we took 70k KIA and the other side 2M north and south. Very hard to win a war, when the other side will pay 30:1.
Giap said, he defeated us in US not in VN, even as we won 'the war on the ground,' and so ONE lesson of VN, is that war is won or lost at home
Of course this is all about our current wars
=
'MY' war was VN, I'm 72, and the wisdom, or other attribute, of the draft (Selective Service System), permitted me to finish my graduate education, so, as I wrote at the time, 'me I let my brothers do the dying.' It was all very unfair, 'selective' indeed, the then-summary was, those who went to war, were hicks and Hispanics (informal reference rhymes with hicks). School exemption was not just for the rich, I wasn't, but money always helps.
I was anti war, as of 1967, b/c I saw that the locals would not fight for their country, why should we.
Which of us knows geo-strategy anyway, Cold War and China - VN and China fought a war after we left...
=
From my corner, personal history, the VVAW were irrelevant to policy, and the war was unaffected by them, likewise the medal tossing in DC, I was there....
The war ended, in MY retro history b/c the other side was prepared to bleed more for it than we were, we took 70k KIA and the other side 2M north and south. Very hard to win a war, when the other side will pay 30:1.
Giap said, he defeated us in US not in VN, even as we won 'the war on the ground,' and so ONE lesson of VN, is that war is won or lost at home
Of course this is all about our current wars
"One side is right, one side is wrong,
we support the Vietcong"
This was true in 1971, it is still true to day.
The Vietnamese people defeated the awesome power of the US military because a huge percent of the American people stood solder to solder with the Vietnamese against the unjust invasion. Unarmed American protesters even made the ultimate sacrifice at Kent State and Jackson State giving their lives to stop the war. The US honor was rescued by these anti-war protesters and by American soldiers in Vietnam, like Hugh Thompson, who landed his helicopter to stop traitors of American ideals, US troops massacring unarmed civilians, in My-Lai.
we support the Vietcong"
This was true in 1971, it is still true to day.
The Vietnamese people defeated the awesome power of the US military because a huge percent of the American people stood solder to solder with the Vietnamese against the unjust invasion. Unarmed American protesters even made the ultimate sacrifice at Kent State and Jackson State giving their lives to stop the war. The US honor was rescued by these anti-war protesters and by American soldiers in Vietnam, like Hugh Thompson, who landed his helicopter to stop traitors of American ideals, US troops massacring unarmed civilians, in My-Lai.
6
The record of a profoundly rational and dignified response to the horror of Vietnam in which the writer as a young man, like so many young men, found himself trapped. Jan Barry is a true patriot who should be thanked by all Americans especially for his post military service, service.
4
Uhh ...
I read the comment below about people spitting on Vietnam Vets as "fake news".
As a Marine Viet Nam Vet I beg to differ with this clueless comment. We were spit on as soon as we got off the plane in Newark New Jersey. They flew us in at 2AM to try and avoid the protestors, and advised us to remove our decorations/uniforms and decorations and put on civilian clothes before we landed.
I was called a "baby killer" by my best friend and forced to hide my service for years because no one would hire a Viet Nam Vet in 1969. Even the VFW didn't want us.
Vietnam Vets never regained the years they lost by serving their country. While draft dodgers like Chaney and Trump were moving up the career ladder and making piles of money we were slogging through the jungle trying to stay alive.
You can whitewash what happened to Vietnam vets however you want, but the reality was that we spit on when we returned and treated like dirt for years afterward.
But I'm not bitter....
I read the comment below about people spitting on Vietnam Vets as "fake news".
As a Marine Viet Nam Vet I beg to differ with this clueless comment. We were spit on as soon as we got off the plane in Newark New Jersey. They flew us in at 2AM to try and avoid the protestors, and advised us to remove our decorations/uniforms and decorations and put on civilian clothes before we landed.
I was called a "baby killer" by my best friend and forced to hide my service for years because no one would hire a Viet Nam Vet in 1969. Even the VFW didn't want us.
Vietnam Vets never regained the years they lost by serving their country. While draft dodgers like Chaney and Trump were moving up the career ladder and making piles of money we were slogging through the jungle trying to stay alive.
You can whitewash what happened to Vietnam vets however you want, but the reality was that we spit on when we returned and treated like dirt for years afterward.
But I'm not bitter....
3
Reinstate the draft, fair and equitable, for men and women, and America's endless wars will stop. Nothing concentrates the mind so wonderfully as when you stand a good chance of being killed.
1
Nonsense. The US government horribly abused its conscript armies in 1917-18; 1950-52 and 1965-72 and the public at large simply didn't care.
The only good war ever fought by US conscripts was WW II. That appears to have been fluke.
The only good war ever fought by US conscripts was WW II. That appears to have been fluke.
3
I served in Korea, 67-68 and Vietnam 68-69. I was a remf truck driver but lost some very good friends from my home town. I joined the VVAW and went to Dewey Canyon III in DC. Like others have noted, the people I knew in the movement were never anti-soldier and never treated me and my fellow vets with anything but respect. Every time I see one of the stories about a vet who claims to have been spit on I just cringe. The only one who ever spit on me (metaphorically) were cops and right wingers.
5
In my opinion, America never learned the primary lesson of the Vietnam War. History repeats itself & each American generation has to re-learn that hard lesson - that unnecessary war is morally wrong & irrational:
The Gulf of Tonkin minor incident was the dishonest & exaggerated pretext for our intruding into another country’s civil war, leading to great loss of life & treasure & the savage Khmer Rouge/Pol Pot reactive extremists in Cambodia.
WMD (real or not) & an alleged 9/11 connection were the dishonest & exaggerated pretexts for starting the needless "war of choice" in Iraq in 2003 leading to great loss of life & treasure & the savage ISIS & Assad reactive extremists in Syria/Iraq, regional instability, & a refugee crisis spilling into Europe & the U.S.
War, except as last resort self-defense or necessary defense of innocent others, is ethically equivalent to international murder, the culpability for which lies with those making the decisions, not soldiers under orders.
The main problem with unnecessary war is that even if the intentions of such a war are genuinely good (though they're usually dubious) and even if it "works" (though they're usually counter-productive), we are left in the dangerous position of having shown the whole world that evil means can achieve good ends. And then what? If ends justify means, which innocents should be sacrificed next for a workers’ paradise, or in holy submission to the will of God, or to forcibly spread democracy?
The Gulf of Tonkin minor incident was the dishonest & exaggerated pretext for our intruding into another country’s civil war, leading to great loss of life & treasure & the savage Khmer Rouge/Pol Pot reactive extremists in Cambodia.
WMD (real or not) & an alleged 9/11 connection were the dishonest & exaggerated pretexts for starting the needless "war of choice" in Iraq in 2003 leading to great loss of life & treasure & the savage ISIS & Assad reactive extremists in Syria/Iraq, regional instability, & a refugee crisis spilling into Europe & the U.S.
War, except as last resort self-defense or necessary defense of innocent others, is ethically equivalent to international murder, the culpability for which lies with those making the decisions, not soldiers under orders.
The main problem with unnecessary war is that even if the intentions of such a war are genuinely good (though they're usually dubious) and even if it "works" (though they're usually counter-productive), we are left in the dangerous position of having shown the whole world that evil means can achieve good ends. And then what? If ends justify means, which innocents should be sacrificed next for a workers’ paradise, or in holy submission to the will of God, or to forcibly spread democracy?
1
John McCain stated that "the wrong side won the war." That's an arguable case if we are discussing WWII (where a country with a 12 year history of racist genocide was defeated by a country with a 200 year history of racist genocide).
In the case of Vietnam however, no such argument is possible. The people of Vietnam scored a victory against pure, undiluted evil. They scored a victory against US, one which will go down in history as one of the most inspiring victories of the human spirit and indomitable will.
In the case of Vietnam however, no such argument is possible. The people of Vietnam scored a victory against pure, undiluted evil. They scored a victory against US, one which will go down in history as one of the most inspiring victories of the human spirit and indomitable will.
4
Shoot, I was active duty and I protested the war. My walls were covered with anti-war posters. Weekly inspection of my room was a real hoot. But I persisted... I did not serve in VN. Stateside hospitals only. And to the guys I took care of at Ft Gordon...I wish you all well.
3
Two things:
First, I would note that the alleged "Vietnam Veteran" hugging Jan Barry in the photo is not sporting a Vietnam Service Medal. From what I can make out, to his left is an "armed forces expeditionary medal" -- indicative of service in South Korea. This, I would assume, Barry would have noted...
Second, the cite to Dispatches in the comment below is totally unwarranted. There are numerous books that would make for a much more reliable and informative read. As a three tour combat vet in Vietnam, I found many errors in Herr's book (for instance, USAF B-52's were flying out of Utapao and not from Udorn, as stated) and numerous instances of what I can only believe are gross exaggerations or outright fabrications (particularly a good many of the vignettes attributable to the Marines serving in I Corps). Perhaps Herr was smoking too much dope while reporting in Vietnam (as he pretty much admits) and had not kicked the habit by the time he wrote the book.
First, I would note that the alleged "Vietnam Veteran" hugging Jan Barry in the photo is not sporting a Vietnam Service Medal. From what I can make out, to his left is an "armed forces expeditionary medal" -- indicative of service in South Korea. This, I would assume, Barry would have noted...
Second, the cite to Dispatches in the comment below is totally unwarranted. There are numerous books that would make for a much more reliable and informative read. As a three tour combat vet in Vietnam, I found many errors in Herr's book (for instance, USAF B-52's were flying out of Utapao and not from Udorn, as stated) and numerous instances of what I can only believe are gross exaggerations or outright fabrications (particularly a good many of the vignettes attributable to the Marines serving in I Corps). Perhaps Herr was smoking too much dope while reporting in Vietnam (as he pretty much admits) and had not kicked the habit by the time he wrote the book.
1
Bravo! from one who was there and came back home with a similar mindset.
2
I worked for the V.A. They denied any truth about what happened in Viet Nam. According to the V.A. we won the war, Mai Lai never happened and the entire war was not an obscenity.
What a bunch of liars.
What a bunch of liars.
2
My name is Rob... I was drafted and served with Alpha Co 1st/12th INF, 4th ID '68-69'... We covered the Cambodian border from Duc Lap in southern Pleiku Province up to Kontum Province the Central Highlands. My thoughts are of the generations which came before us, many who came out to stand with their younger men and women Americans, in and out of uniform... My experience after I returned home was We all stood up for the truth and came together to expose the myth of separation... Just as there were many bold faced lies told to divide our great nation, there were and still are certain truths which bring us together to work for change again... Thanks Jan Barry for reopening this dialogue... Again
2
Toronto in '67' had so many draft dodgers/deserters living here to escape a war they didn't believe in. We welcomed them, a church opened its doors to them until they could find appropriate accommodation. Probably half a million escaped to Canada.
1
Just 19, I enlisted in October 1966. My parents, grandparents and myself thought it was the right thing to do. By 1967 we had each changed our view. I just wanted to come home. When I did I went back to college but I was different than the other students. I opposed the war but never revealed I was an Army veteran. In 1970 after Kent State I agreed to join in protests. By then other veterans were on campus. We could tell among ourselves who we were. We also knew that the war was a travesty. I remember search and destroy, win hearts and minds, Vietnamization the war, and all the other propaganda phrases. I also remember why I joined and why I became disillusioned. I'm now 69. Its been 50 years. The pictures in my mind do not fade with time. Nor do the regrets ever go away. I'm retired now for almost 5 years and I still don't speak of the war except for one chance meeting with a then Marine high school classmate who was killed weeks after we bumped into each other at a train station; Me on the way home and he on the way to Vietnam. I asked him "How do you like the Marines?" His response still haunts me. "Jay, it was the worst mistake I've ever made."
Vietnam was the worst mistake America ever made. At least until Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Yemen, and Syria. When will it ever end?
Vietnam was the worst mistake America ever made. At least until Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Yemen, and Syria. When will it ever end?
11
Jay. Yes, when will it ever end?
I work with the elderly. They are scared to death. What does that tell you?
It's heartbreaking to hear their stories filled with today's fears.....about potential war. They're so fearful for the generations that they know they will soon be leaving behind......
MIMA
I work with the elderly. They are scared to death. What does that tell you?
It's heartbreaking to hear their stories filled with today's fears.....about potential war. They're so fearful for the generations that they know they will soon be leaving behind......
MIMA
4
I know many Vietnam veterans, as well as two who died there, and the survivors, to a man, felt that the war was a tragic and stupid mistake. Jan, it took more courage for you to speak out than I did during the many war protests at Berkeley during my time there as a student. I whine occasionally over the beatings and tear gas, but what you experienced was, obviously, far more horrific.
Nixon insisted on prolonging the war for four years longer, with the same result- we left, defeated. Reagan came in to do something about "Vietnam Syndrome" by defeating Grenada. All it did was make us look silly. The Bushes talked about ending the "Vietnam Syndrome" through their invasions, all of which ultimately failed, unless you count preserving the royal family of Kuwait as a victory. And now Trump, who has never come close to combat, wants to talk like a tough guy, and bomb some people apparently just for the hell of it.
The Democrats, including the Clintons and Obama, aren't much better, and love to be photographed in parades and gush over "the troops".
Guess what. We don't need the troops, whose every futile mission makes us weaker. We need men like you, Jan, and my old casual friend Michael Herr. Everybody should read his book Dispatches, in order to dive into the horror we went through then- and are headed for now.
Nixon insisted on prolonging the war for four years longer, with the same result- we left, defeated. Reagan came in to do something about "Vietnam Syndrome" by defeating Grenada. All it did was make us look silly. The Bushes talked about ending the "Vietnam Syndrome" through their invasions, all of which ultimately failed, unless you count preserving the royal family of Kuwait as a victory. And now Trump, who has never come close to combat, wants to talk like a tough guy, and bomb some people apparently just for the hell of it.
The Democrats, including the Clintons and Obama, aren't much better, and love to be photographed in parades and gush over "the troops".
Guess what. We don't need the troops, whose every futile mission makes us weaker. We need men like you, Jan, and my old casual friend Michael Herr. Everybody should read his book Dispatches, in order to dive into the horror we went through then- and are headed for now.
32
Yes, "Dispatches" is a very good read, that, and "A Rumor of War" I count as two works that our generation produced that begin to approach Bernard Fall's "Street Without Joy" and "Hell in a Very Small Place." Some books I can't let go of and both are in my house until I die.
20
Au contraire.
Obama made it a point to now exploit the deaths of soldiers for political purposes.
He correctly viewed such acts as the ultimate debasement of politics, something Reagan and Bush were more than willing to do to promote their fantasy agenda.
Obama made it a point to now exploit the deaths of soldiers for political purposes.
He correctly viewed such acts as the ultimate debasement of politics, something Reagan and Bush were more than willing to do to promote their fantasy agenda.
2
Thank you, but I do not need to read Dispatches. War pales Hell. When will the world turn what was, into what can be. My country, America, makes me sick.
1
My very personal thanks go out to Jan Berry, those veteran anti-war protestors who have commented here, and of course all of your comrades in the struggle against the southeast Asian folly.
As a civilian minor cog in the Vietnam era peacenik apparatus, I remember very well that VVAW with its excellent tactics and growing numbers was a principal cause of changing the tone of media coverage of protests. We protesters could no longer be treated as a fringe group of ivory tower elitists.
As a civilian minor cog in the Vietnam era peacenik apparatus, I remember very well that VVAW with its excellent tactics and growing numbers was a principal cause of changing the tone of media coverage of protests. We protesters could no longer be treated as a fringe group of ivory tower elitists.
43
As a former Sergeant in the US Marine Corps (1969-73), who at one time volunteered to go to Vietnam as a door gunner in helicopters--but fortunately was never sent--I turned against the war after fighting racism and white supremacy in the Marines and then reading The Pentagon Papers, after they had been leaked by Daniel Ellsburg. What the Papers showed is that EVERYTHING the US public had been told about US reasons for being in Vietnam was an utter and conscious lie. I later read President Eisenhower's Memoirs, where he stated that the reason the US allowed South Vietnam to cancel the 1956 elections was that US intelligence told us that Ho Chi Minh would win 80% of the vote in a free and fair election--and we couldn't have that! And then, according to Robert McNamara, the US and allies KILLED 3.8 MILLION Vietnamese--and Nick Turse, in his 2013 book, Kill Everything that Moves, says 5.7 MILLION Vietnamese were wounded. All because the US wouldn't let people decide their own fate. I take pride for "turning around," and still tell people today that the US is the center of the US Empire, and that our foreign policy at least since the end of WW II has been to try to dominate the world, under both the Democrats and the Republicans.
55
The powers that be: The Banks. The Arms Manufacturers. The Political Elite. Eisenhower got it. Do you?
2
I hate that Vietnam keeps getting framed as "a disastrous military venture" rather than a war -- like all wars - that was and is a horrific mis-use and abuse of military might in a world where negotiations and bridge building are critical. We wore T shirts "War is unhealthy for children and other living things" in the early 70s, I was in grade school and we were against ALL wars, not a "disastrous military venture" -- They keep revising our history. The Anti Vietnam movement was an ANTI WAR Movement. Kudos to Jan Barry for protesting this atrocity, but please note a huge and distinct shift in perspective. @johannaclear
15
I think you paint with too broad a brush: not everyone who opposed the war was a pacifist; I, for example was against the Vietnam War and marched against it, but I have never regretted our country's involvement in WWII. And, even if the Civil War was not actually fought to free slaves, I still believe that a war that ended the national crime of slavery was a war that needed fighting even if it did represent only the very beginning of our long struggle with racism, both personal and institutional. So there were pacifists and there were those who simply believed that this particular war (like many others) was utterly unjustified and unjustifiable.
3
While I respect veterans who chose a group like Veteran's for Peace because they opposed ALL wars. I joined Vietnam Veterans Against THE War.
I am now 72 and have supported Iraq Veterans Against THE War, and know that like VVAW they wanted to provide a big enough tent to include veterans who were not necessarily pacifists.
No one has mentioned the men who allowed themselves to be drafted for Vietnam service but were conscientious objectors. These were brave men too, whom I admire even more so than men who went to Canada motivated by their abhorrence of war.
But little is gained and much credibility may be lost by mischaracterizing all opponents of the war as pacifists.
I am now 72 and have supported Iraq Veterans Against THE War, and know that like VVAW they wanted to provide a big enough tent to include veterans who were not necessarily pacifists.
No one has mentioned the men who allowed themselves to be drafted for Vietnam service but were conscientious objectors. These were brave men too, whom I admire even more so than men who went to Canada motivated by their abhorrence of war.
But little is gained and much credibility may be lost by mischaracterizing all opponents of the war as pacifists.
1
How come no one anywhere ever metions the Black students killed at Jackson State protests 11 days after Kent State? Might color blindness cause that?
I visited my brother in the amputee ward for two years after he was hit in 67 and learned how much our government was lying to us by talking with the other dozens of guys in the ward with him.
Those lies destroyed any trust between the public and the government for millions of people.
I visited my brother in the amputee ward for two years after he was hit in 67 and learned how much our government was lying to us by talking with the other dozens of guys in the ward with him.
Those lies destroyed any trust between the public and the government for millions of people.
45
very well expressed, Dennis,
Trust.. that was the principle casualty of the V-N war. from the POTUS on down, for reasons inexplicable to me, the executive branch misconstrued and mislead the American public. And for what purpose. The NVA knew, the GIs knew...so why or what was the purpose of not coming clean with the people paying the bills via their taxes?
Trust.. that was the principle casualty of the V-N war. from the POTUS on down, for reasons inexplicable to me, the executive branch misconstrued and mislead the American public. And for what purpose. The NVA knew, the GIs knew...so why or what was the purpose of not coming clean with the people paying the bills via their taxes?
2
Thank you! I have made that point time and time again and it is a travesty that many people have no idea about what happened at Jackson State.
1
I'm so sorry. It's sad that I had to look online, after reading your comment, to be reminded of the Jackson State shooting. The shooting should never have happened, but the lack of coverage and attention also should never have happened.
3
What Viet Nam, Iraq, etc. prove is that the famous dicta of Edmund Burke, "“Those who don’t know history are destined to repeat it.” and “Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it”. George Santayana are true.
For the beginnings of the Viet Nam tragedy I recommend reading Woodrow Wilson's "Fourteen Points" as presented at the 1919 Versailles Peace Conference and to think a bit about what the world might have been had those ideas, especially Points 5 - 13, been acted on positively...
USN 1976 - 71
Viet Nam 1968
For the beginnings of the Viet Nam tragedy I recommend reading Woodrow Wilson's "Fourteen Points" as presented at the 1919 Versailles Peace Conference and to think a bit about what the world might have been had those ideas, especially Points 5 - 13, been acted on positively...
USN 1976 - 71
Viet Nam 1968
16
HapinOregon
I always take time to read your post when I come across one, so I'm hesitant to suggest to you that it wasn't Burke, but Santayana who should get at least (partial) credit for that attribution.
Some assert that Thucydides first suggested the idea of history repeating in 400 BCE, saying, "I shall be content if those shall pronounce my history useful who desire to have a clear view both of the events which have happened, and of those which will some day, in all human probability, happen again in a same or similar way." He probably plagiarized a Sumerian...
But I believe that Santayana in "The Life of Reason" wrote, in 1905, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
Personally, given our war in Vietnam, and subsequent history, I like to ironically invoke Karl Marx's observation in 1851 (?) that,"History repeats itself, the first time as tragedy, then as farce."
Churchill could be considered, too, for observing, "When the situation was manageable it was neglected, and now that it is thoroughly out of hand we apply too late the remedies which then might have effected a cure...these are the features which constitute the endless repetition of history.”
Churchill is appealing, but a little wordy for me. I'm going with Marx. He gets right to the point and I like the irony of the father of socialism (communism?) succinctly describing our malaise.
I always take time to read your post when I come across one, so I'm hesitant to suggest to you that it wasn't Burke, but Santayana who should get at least (partial) credit for that attribution.
Some assert that Thucydides first suggested the idea of history repeating in 400 BCE, saying, "I shall be content if those shall pronounce my history useful who desire to have a clear view both of the events which have happened, and of those which will some day, in all human probability, happen again in a same or similar way." He probably plagiarized a Sumerian...
But I believe that Santayana in "The Life of Reason" wrote, in 1905, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
Personally, given our war in Vietnam, and subsequent history, I like to ironically invoke Karl Marx's observation in 1851 (?) that,"History repeats itself, the first time as tragedy, then as farce."
Churchill could be considered, too, for observing, "When the situation was manageable it was neglected, and now that it is thoroughly out of hand we apply too late the remedies which then might have effected a cure...these are the features which constitute the endless repetition of history.”
Churchill is appealing, but a little wordy for me. I'm going with Marx. He gets right to the point and I like the irony of the father of socialism (communism?) succinctly describing our malaise.
17
John,
very good ! I agree - the irony of Karl Marx saying this is rich. We just had a birth in our family - our daughter & son in law named their 2 month old boy Dawson Marx and the family's last name.
You have obviously studied well and remembered to bring the salt as well as the hot sauce to the picnic !! carry on please
very good ! I agree - the irony of Karl Marx saying this is rich. We just had a birth in our family - our daughter & son in law named their 2 month old boy Dawson Marx and the family's last name.
You have obviously studied well and remembered to bring the salt as well as the hot sauce to the picnic !! carry on please
3
I returned from Vietnam as a combat disabled Army Infantry veteran in 1968. Upon my return I attended college and participated in several anti-war marches. I don't remember anyone ever being hostile to me as a result of my service there. Instead, I was met by total indifference. Once the war was off of the daily news it was forgotten by all but the veterans and the families of the dead. In many ways that was the worst.
41
Terry Thurman
That was my experience. In addition to struggling to adapt to a non-combat environment, to my part in the war, to what sense I could make of the religious and cultural structures I'd vested in, and broken to pieces in Vietnam, I was trying to come to terms with a student environment that relative to the men in my unit seemed utterly immature generally, and while against the war, not FOR much of anything else, other than sex, partying, and planning to make money and get on with life. I wasn't keen to have fellow students know I'd been in the war, but when they did know they were frankly uninterested let alone showing any interest in how it affected me and what I thought about it. I know how the U.S. got to where it is now. The choices that have led to the decisions that have brought us here were already being formulated then. The nation was completely inclined in this direction.
That was my experience. In addition to struggling to adapt to a non-combat environment, to my part in the war, to what sense I could make of the religious and cultural structures I'd vested in, and broken to pieces in Vietnam, I was trying to come to terms with a student environment that relative to the men in my unit seemed utterly immature generally, and while against the war, not FOR much of anything else, other than sex, partying, and planning to make money and get on with life. I wasn't keen to have fellow students know I'd been in the war, but when they did know they were frankly uninterested let alone showing any interest in how it affected me and what I thought about it. I know how the U.S. got to where it is now. The choices that have led to the decisions that have brought us here were already being formulated then. The nation was completely inclined in this direction.
13
I was not in combat the 18 months I spent in country, because that was not my MOS, but such did not make me immune to rocket attacks now and then. For the most part, we didn't talk about our experiences nor were we asked. The exception was my first roommate, a kid from wealthy family. He made facial expressions and sounds from old Japanese movies from the 50s and called me a baby killer. I found another room to occupy. Towards the end of the school year in 1970, the protests were really getting under way. I joined in on one peaceful one. I would not participate in any vandalism and condemn it still regardless of the reason. The matter eventually faded. I didn't revisit the war at all until a family member asked to see my pictures again a few years ago. Now, I meet occasionally with other veterans and talk about many things. Of course, I don't do that with any other segment of the population except maybe others who also served. The whole affair was a mistake, beginning to end, some of which can be attributed to LBJ's fear of being the first president to lose a war. What a reason for 58,200+ deaths and 304,000 wounded!
2
I should have said my first roommate at college after I got back.
As a former Navy pilot I have followed your "Vietnam '67" series with particular interest. In 1970, as a Lieutenant USN, I obeyed my conscience and refused to fly. I was honorably discharged as a conscientious objector in 1971. I hope that your deeply important and grippingly timely "Vietnam '67" series will also document the role played by active duty personnel in ending the war through organizations such as the Concerned Officers Movement.
47
yes, I worked in USAF personal in 66-70, and helped USAF folks officers and enlisted with degrees transition into teaching San Antonio area HS math, science, and other "critical skills" courses, so they could leave honorably and legitimately. Win-win...they became dedicated teachers for several years, at least, and upgraded the quality of the high school faculties, and the USAF cleared out folks that might without malice or intent hamper the USAF mission. Decent folks all around and the USAF officer boards that made recommendations realized that personal moving on into teaching benefited the nation in another way..but valuable too as flight personal and support personnel were.
2
This installment comes closer than any of the earlier ones to speaking the truth about the U.S. presence in South Vietnam including its moral and legal aspects, albeit the latter by implication.
As Mr. Barry makes clear, the object of the war was to destroy rural South Vietnam. Defeating the Viet Cong required killing the civilians that sustained them. Hence Agent Orange and bombing villages.
He speaks the truth in saying that the U.S. installed the South Vietnamese government, but he leaves it to the reader to understand what this meant, that the government’s permission for the U.S. to be there was meaningless, and that absent the permission of a legitimate government the U.S. was invading a sovereign nation. The closest he comes to saying so is at the end when he suggests that he and his fellows judged the war in moral terms, leaving us to remember that morality and law usually go hand in hand.
The justification for the U.S. invasion of South Vietnam and its adventures in neighboring countries may have been to halt the spread of Communism but against this there is the matter of international law as established by the Nuremberg principles.
Mr. Barry concludes by saying that the protests of veterans brought “moral witness to bear against” the war. True enough, but he omits what he already told us, that the U.S. invaded a foreign country. We are left to remember that in so doing the U.S. committed a crime against peace, under the Nuremberg Principles a war crime.
As Mr. Barry makes clear, the object of the war was to destroy rural South Vietnam. Defeating the Viet Cong required killing the civilians that sustained them. Hence Agent Orange and bombing villages.
He speaks the truth in saying that the U.S. installed the South Vietnamese government, but he leaves it to the reader to understand what this meant, that the government’s permission for the U.S. to be there was meaningless, and that absent the permission of a legitimate government the U.S. was invading a sovereign nation. The closest he comes to saying so is at the end when he suggests that he and his fellows judged the war in moral terms, leaving us to remember that morality and law usually go hand in hand.
The justification for the U.S. invasion of South Vietnam and its adventures in neighboring countries may have been to halt the spread of Communism but against this there is the matter of international law as established by the Nuremberg principles.
Mr. Barry concludes by saying that the protests of veterans brought “moral witness to bear against” the war. True enough, but he omits what he already told us, that the U.S. invaded a foreign country. We are left to remember that in so doing the U.S. committed a crime against peace, under the Nuremberg Principles a war crime.
27
Barry's article references the shock felt after the Kent State killings. I was overseas in the Army at that time (in Japan, rather than Vietnam) and was shocked for two reasons that may not have applied to everyone. I attended college 30 minutes away from Kent State, which at the time -- just a few years before the shootings -- seemed an apolitical backwater, one of the last places one would have expected a major uprising against the war.
Second, in the Army I was trained in Army crowd control doctrine, and participated in some crowd control jobs involving demonstrations against American bases in Okinawa. The conduct of the National Guard at Kent violated pretty much all the rules of Army's crowd control practice, suggesting not only that the actions of the Guard were not only poorly led, but simply incompetent.
The resistance among soldiers to their political and military bosses was not limited to the efforts of VVAW, as important as those efforts were. There was a vigorous "underground newspaper" movement both at U.S. bases and abroad, through which, in those pre-social media days, active duty troops and veterans shared their views of the Army and the war which, not surprisingly, were highly critical of both.
Second, in the Army I was trained in Army crowd control doctrine, and participated in some crowd control jobs involving demonstrations against American bases in Okinawa. The conduct of the National Guard at Kent violated pretty much all the rules of Army's crowd control practice, suggesting not only that the actions of the Guard were not only poorly led, but simply incompetent.
The resistance among soldiers to their political and military bosses was not limited to the efforts of VVAW, as important as those efforts were. There was a vigorous "underground newspaper" movement both at U.S. bases and abroad, through which, in those pre-social media days, active duty troops and veterans shared their views of the Army and the war which, not surprisingly, were highly critical of both.
I am more proud of demonstrating against the Vietnam War than I ever was of going to it. Trying to stop the war was the best way, the only way really, to help those still there. As far as my experience is concerned, it is a myth that veterans were treated badly by the anti war people.
36
I agree. My ex-husband and myself joined the millions of demonstrators against the war.
3
I'm with you Steve. For me, Los Angeles anti-war movement was penitence for two years of khaki servitude in McNamara's spreadsheet war. Continue to feel the shame of that service. "Spitting" is/was fake news.
3
I am very moved by all of the reader's thoughtful, heartfelt, honest comments this story generated. Thank you.
18
I, too, was a member of the Concerned Officers Movement in San Diego mentioned above and as a Medical Officer came to realize that the role of doctors in warfare was to aid the war effort, that any healing was secondary and so I had no choice but to seek discharge as a C.O. Reading this important article makes me hope that everyone comes to realize the need for a continued antiwar movement in these troubled times. We hear, it seems almost daily, of US "accidentally" killing civilians and even our own allied fighters. We become inured to the horrors of war. We are outraged over the impolite use of chemical weapons as though exploding and shooting humans is humane and acceptable. Drone strikes and gigantic bombs will never make the world a better place, only reveal our failings as a country and a species.
29
Early in my 14 month tour in Vietnam I drew a copy of a Charles Schulz "Peanuts" cartoon, a single frame, on my helmet's camouflage cover, a simple line image depicting Snoopy with his front paws closed on each other holding something the nature of which he can't imagine, and over his head is the caption, "I've been had."
The army took that camouflage cover away from me when I came home, but not once the entire time I was in the field did an sergeant, or officer, challenge the cartoon, and when it was first seen by most of them it elicited a smile, or a positive comment.
The Helix was everywhere on gear in the field, as was the simple word, "Peace."
One didn't have to be in Vietnam too long, even if initially a stalwart supporter of the war, to come to realize that most of the Vietnamese people were simply trying to get on with their lives.
The original print of that cartoon, the one I carefully cut out of a newspaper page 48 years ago, resides respectfully in a case with the decorations that the Army put on my dress uniform when I left in June 1970: my CIB, 3 unit citations for gallantry, several other awards, and 2 Army commendation medals the Department of the Army sent to me months after I'd come home, not awarded in-country because I'd been in the field when the ceremonies were held.
I've looked at Snoopy many times over the years, more than the awards. Schulz perfectly captured my state in the war, and maybe as a citizen right now, too.
The army took that camouflage cover away from me when I came home, but not once the entire time I was in the field did an sergeant, or officer, challenge the cartoon, and when it was first seen by most of them it elicited a smile, or a positive comment.
The Helix was everywhere on gear in the field, as was the simple word, "Peace."
One didn't have to be in Vietnam too long, even if initially a stalwart supporter of the war, to come to realize that most of the Vietnamese people were simply trying to get on with their lives.
The original print of that cartoon, the one I carefully cut out of a newspaper page 48 years ago, resides respectfully in a case with the decorations that the Army put on my dress uniform when I left in June 1970: my CIB, 3 unit citations for gallantry, several other awards, and 2 Army commendation medals the Department of the Army sent to me months after I'd come home, not awarded in-country because I'd been in the field when the ceremonies were held.
I've looked at Snoopy many times over the years, more than the awards. Schulz perfectly captured my state in the war, and maybe as a citizen right now, too.
59
I served in the U.S. Army Signal Corp from 1971-77. Vietnam wasn't worth one American life. As I understand it. President Eisenhower was the 1st president who got us involved and president Kennedy was planning on pulling us out after he got re-elected. It is so sad how an assassination can change the outcome of what became bad history.
46
Kennedy didn't have the courage of his convictions or he would have pulled the troops out when he was "planning" to do so. If your information is correct, he had to have had his plan at least a year ahead of his potential reelection. By waiting until he became a lame duck to take action, he put his reelection ambitions ahead of the good of the country. How many more Americans and Vietnamese would die during that period? Obama did much the same thing who he asked Russian president to tell Putin he would be more flexible in dealing with Russia after he was safely reelected.
1
Actually it was Truman who let the French return to Vietnam, as if they owned it, after WW II. That was the beginning of it all. At that moment Truman betrayed everyone, including Roosevelt who wouldn't have approved.
14
I believe that JFK's decision to pull of Viet Nam out was one of the reasons for Dallas
What a crying shame the veterans' protests came after rather than before their "service to their country." Nevertheless, it is understandable. We get our troops from among an age group too young to comprehend what their country is doing to them.
Scottish-born, Australian singer, song writer Eric Bogle captured the consequences belatedly realized by military veterans in two songs about World War I. Here they are: THE GREEN FIELDS OF FRANCE, this recording by John McDermott: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_mBJgsaxlY and, THE BAND PLAYED WALTZING MATILDA, by Eric Bogle himself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WG48Ftsr3OI.
May the legislators and the commanders who send our young men and now women to wage wars meet Jesus upon their departure from this life to the next giving again his Sermon on the Mount with its admonition, "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. "
Scottish-born, Australian singer, song writer Eric Bogle captured the consequences belatedly realized by military veterans in two songs about World War I. Here they are: THE GREEN FIELDS OF FRANCE, this recording by John McDermott: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_mBJgsaxlY and, THE BAND PLAYED WALTZING MATILDA, by Eric Bogle himself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WG48Ftsr3OI.
May the legislators and the commanders who send our young men and now women to wage wars meet Jesus upon their departure from this life to the next giving again his Sermon on the Mount with its admonition, "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. "
17
The Times should ask John Kerry to write a column here.
58
It is good to see the record being set straight about the role of veterans in the anti-Vietnam War movement. We were a major part of it! I was on Yankee Station in the Gulf of Saigon in 1967 as Midshipman at Annapolis and then refused to return to Vietnam as an F-8 pilot in 1970. With other officers I founded the San Diego chapter of the Concerned Officers Movement and also joined Vietnam Veterans Against the War. I lost my patriotism in Vietnam as did many other GIs who recognized the war as just one in a seemingly endless and still ongoing series of US wars for empire.
67
Proud going in; prouder coming out. Thanks John
13
I left the U S Navy early, in 1967, after wrestling with my conscience for two years. What were we doing there? What was I doing there? Even on board a ship it wasn't hard to track the agony happening in the beautiful green land just onshore. While others in the wardroom laughed and joked about nights "on the beach" with cute Vietnamese vixens all I could imagine was their families being blown to bits. I fought my conscience and my conscience won. Left the navy and spent seven years in public service to change the narrative: war is not fun or great. We can all do better
70
Mr. Barry's memory for the timing of events is a little bit off.
The Tonkin Gulf incidents were about one and a half years, not two and a half years, after January 1963.
It did not take a year after November 1967 for public opinion to turn toward doubts about the war. The turn toward doubts had already happened. In October 1967, on a Gallup poll, more Americans said they thought going to war in Vietnam had been a mistake than said it had been a correct decision. This growth of public doubt was the reason government spokesmen were trying so hard to push an optimistic picture of the war in late 1967.
The Tonkin Gulf incidents were about one and a half years, not two and a half years, after January 1963.
It did not take a year after November 1967 for public opinion to turn toward doubts about the war. The turn toward doubts had already happened. In October 1967, on a Gallup poll, more Americans said they thought going to war in Vietnam had been a mistake than said it had been a correct decision. This growth of public doubt was the reason government spokesmen were trying so hard to push an optimistic picture of the war in late 1967.
11
One of the enduring, perhaps intentional, myths of the Vietnam war is the purported hostility of anti-war activists for veterans. As several letters attest, veterans were active in the peace movement, warmly welcomed by other protesters.
Other letters point to the even less recognized phenomena of anti-war serving military. Coffee shops and GI newspapers received moral and financial support from civilian activists. Especially prominent was the Free the Army tour by Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden, documented in a film with that title.
The classic peacenik spitting on soldiers story has been found to be fake news. Veterans who returned to university have written about their distance from peers, not least because of age and life experience. (c.f. "Vietnam-Perkasie: A Combat Marine Memoir" by W. D. Ehrhart about his experience at Swarthmore) But I suspect that overt hostility seldom if ever came from those seriously involved in protest.
The other big myth is that the war in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia is over. Yes, after too many years there was reconciliation and normalization of diplomatic, cultural and economic relations, even real friendship and strategic common interest against China.
However local people still suffer from buried landmines and unexploded ordnance as well as neurological illnesses and birth defects traceable to Agent Orange. (www.warlegacies.org)
John McAuliff
Fund for Reconciliation and Development
Vietnam Peace Commemoration Committee
Other letters point to the even less recognized phenomena of anti-war serving military. Coffee shops and GI newspapers received moral and financial support from civilian activists. Especially prominent was the Free the Army tour by Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden, documented in a film with that title.
The classic peacenik spitting on soldiers story has been found to be fake news. Veterans who returned to university have written about their distance from peers, not least because of age and life experience. (c.f. "Vietnam-Perkasie: A Combat Marine Memoir" by W. D. Ehrhart about his experience at Swarthmore) But I suspect that overt hostility seldom if ever came from those seriously involved in protest.
The other big myth is that the war in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia is over. Yes, after too many years there was reconciliation and normalization of diplomatic, cultural and economic relations, even real friendship and strategic common interest against China.
However local people still suffer from buried landmines and unexploded ordnance as well as neurological illnesses and birth defects traceable to Agent Orange. (www.warlegacies.org)
John McAuliff
Fund for Reconciliation and Development
Vietnam Peace Commemoration Committee
57
Well said John..
1
1969, first day back in Seattle from Nam, on leave for a six month extension and battlefield commission, 55 lbs lost my last six weeks from hookworm, tapeworm, and roundworm, I, in jeans walked up University Avenue across from the post office, in front of the florist. Lovely shoulder length slightly curled at the ends blonde, baby blue eyes, pink, fuzzy, V necked cashmere, beautiful, large, thick, silver, peace symbol on a thick, silver chain between two lovely mounds, light blue jeans, a wonderful smile walked towards me to my left.
I admit I, 11 months of abandoned rice fields and swamps, walked with that strange, feeling for the ground and softness, but light, gliding walk, searching rooftops, windows, far up the avenue, wearing a big, wonderful, happy, maybe goofy, smile.
Two quick steps to her left, quick, no tell, spat in my eyes and "Baby killer!"
Do not tell anyone more lies about what happened. And I was not at all the only one.
My paid for house on Beacon Ave S, 5 fruit trees I planted, lavender bush outside bedroom window, bulldozed down for "failure to maintain yard" by the city of Seattle, sold at one bidder auction, costs of the dozing and auction deducted, $10,000 check sent to mom. Next month my 1SGT flew out to have me sign $300 from my $175/month, dependents and combat pay, for my paid for 1966 442 cu inch, two 4 barrel carbs, Olds 98 for $30/day storage and followed 20 days later for $600, bought at lone bidder auction for $50 by impounder. "Smuggling?"
I admit I, 11 months of abandoned rice fields and swamps, walked with that strange, feeling for the ground and softness, but light, gliding walk, searching rooftops, windows, far up the avenue, wearing a big, wonderful, happy, maybe goofy, smile.
Two quick steps to her left, quick, no tell, spat in my eyes and "Baby killer!"
Do not tell anyone more lies about what happened. And I was not at all the only one.
My paid for house on Beacon Ave S, 5 fruit trees I planted, lavender bush outside bedroom window, bulldozed down for "failure to maintain yard" by the city of Seattle, sold at one bidder auction, costs of the dozing and auction deducted, $10,000 check sent to mom. Next month my 1SGT flew out to have me sign $300 from my $175/month, dependents and combat pay, for my paid for 1966 442 cu inch, two 4 barrel carbs, Olds 98 for $30/day storage and followed 20 days later for $600, bought at lone bidder auction for $50 by impounder. "Smuggling?"
The unnecessary and cynically budget busting wars like Vietnam and Iraq are the precursors to the next stage in America's history, economic collapse.
None other than Noam Chomsky and Chris Hedges are predicting a complete unraveling of the American economy in the near future as a result of enormous debt that can never be paid back. With no gold standard to prop up the dollar, complete confidence in America's currency cannot last.
Historians believe that America's empire is at an end after destroying itself from within, auctioning off all its resources. My life as an expatriate is partly in preparation for this collapse, including identifying a currency that may sustain my life for remaining years.
Bon courage!
None other than Noam Chomsky and Chris Hedges are predicting a complete unraveling of the American economy in the near future as a result of enormous debt that can never be paid back. With no gold standard to prop up the dollar, complete confidence in America's currency cannot last.
Historians believe that America's empire is at an end after destroying itself from within, auctioning off all its resources. My life as an expatriate is partly in preparation for this collapse, including identifying a currency that may sustain my life for remaining years.
Bon courage!
24
Vietnam and Iraq were wars of choice. The United States was under no threat from Vietnam; they didn't have a navy or an air force; they had no reason to be at war with the U.S. Iraq was not involved in 9/11; the pilots were Saudis. So, we bombed and invaded Iraq; we destroyed schools, hospitals and infrastructure. They did have oil; that was Cheney's real goal, get Iraq's oil fields. Vietnam did not have anything we needed or wanted; Dulles made up a lie about China invading Vietnam and threatening S.F., if we didn't stop them in Vietnam. The MIC makes money from war; if there are no wars, they don't get more money from Congress. As General Smedley Butler said once, "war is a racket". Eisenhower warned against a land war in Asia. We can't afford to maintain and repair our infrastructure; we can't afford a national health care plan for Americans; we can't afford to send our kids to college free, as Germany does. But, we can afford a forever war; we can afford to maintain empty military bases in Congressional Districts. Now we have a semi-permanent Republican Congress full of chicken hawks.
34
This ruin of the US by military spending was Osama Bin Laden's stated goal. And war profiteers are now global and not about to lose their cash cow.
I had a friend who was drafted for Vietnam in 1969.
I got a letter from him when he was deployed that found him beyond despair at what was happening to the people of Vietnam.
He said when he got home he was going to be an anti-war activist.
When he got home, he was in a casket.
I still miss him.
So, thanks to all the vets like him who went and saw and wanted to end an unjust war.
I got a letter from him when he was deployed that found him beyond despair at what was happening to the people of Vietnam.
He said when he got home he was going to be an anti-war activist.
When he got home, he was in a casket.
I still miss him.
So, thanks to all the vets like him who went and saw and wanted to end an unjust war.
118
What woke me up was a police riot. My older brother (now 68) stopped in a donut shop to get something to eat before going to a university class. Not far away several thousand students were gathering for an anti-war protest. Police from far away cities came to the university town to boost the local police by hundreds. Long story short, as my brother stood at the counter, police ran in and arrested every young person they saw in the donut shop. My brother was put with hundreds of students, many bleeding, in a maintenance compound. The police had rioted.
That is when I started paying attention to the anti-war movement.
That is when I started paying attention to the anti-war movement.
45
The Vietnam War, unlike WWII, didn't have broad support. While we seemed to have a well defined enemy we didn't seem to have a well defined strategy to win. I've often felt that America ought not to march into a country with war in mind unless it has a strategy for winning, a plan for what to do after it wins, and the willingness to admit the people who helped us win, if they are natives of the country, into America when their lives in their own country will be endangered by the help they gave us. Winning a war involves more than just dropping bombs on cities or enemy strongholds. It involves planning, flexibility, well trained personnel, and the support of the country especially the veterans.
The most distressing thing about the Vietnam War to me was the complete lack of support shown to soldiers returning home. Shouting "baby killer" at a returning soldier when that soldier probably didn't kill any babies, accomplished nothing but alienation of the soldier. Denying what Agent Orange did to soldiers was another problem. Veterans should be treated with respect. They fought for their country. They paid the price in injuries, early death from stress, physical and emotional handicaps yet they are more often given less than optimal medical treatment, opportunities at good jobs or better schooling, and are not drawn from society at large. Let's see how quick our politicians are to declare war when their children's lives are on the line.
The most distressing thing about the Vietnam War to me was the complete lack of support shown to soldiers returning home. Shouting "baby killer" at a returning soldier when that soldier probably didn't kill any babies, accomplished nothing but alienation of the soldier. Denying what Agent Orange did to soldiers was another problem. Veterans should be treated with respect. They fought for their country. They paid the price in injuries, early death from stress, physical and emotional handicaps yet they are more often given less than optimal medical treatment, opportunities at good jobs or better schooling, and are not drawn from society at large. Let's see how quick our politicians are to declare war when their children's lives are on the line.
17
Shouting "baby killer" at soldiers that didn't kill babies was wrong. But infinitely worse was indiscriminate bombing of villages and declaring free-fire zones in civilian areas. We killed close to three million people in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. Who was held to account for the war crimes the U.S. governments (Democrats and Republicans) committed?
36
The soldiers wound up holding the bag. Ask any one of them how it felt to be unable to find a job because of their status as veterans. Ask them how it feels when they, unlike WWII vets or some of today's vets, can't even talk about their war. We get to see the effects of the Vietnam War on today's wars. No one trusts the president or the Congress, be they Republicans or Democrats, to do the right thing or get us through without a major problem. There's good reason for that. Look at what W did: marched into Iraq without a real plan, marched into Afghanistan but didn't stick to it, let Cheney convince him that outsourcing to Halliburton was the way to go on certain things.
The United States is not the only government to commit war crimes. Russia has, China has, Japan did, France has, and so on down the line. I think that war and crimes go hand in hand. War is an excellent thing for producing murderers or allowing them to hide with the rest of the population.
The United States is not the only government to commit war crimes. Russia has, China has, Japan did, France has, and so on down the line. I think that war and crimes go hand in hand. War is an excellent thing for producing murderers or allowing them to hide with the rest of the population.
12
Hplding onto more than a few urban mythes re: how returning citizen soldiers were treated.
The military industrial complex learned more from the Vietnam war then we the people learned. 1. Get rid of the draft, only a very few have skin in the game.
2. Turn over all non killing functions to private contractors. Our current crop of veterans do not learn everyday skills like becoming a chef for large groups, or a mechanic. All they learn is how to kill. 3. Keep the news media out of the conflicts, do not let the people see the carnage. 4. Allow the news media to be controlled by entertainment companies, "12 Americans killed in Afghanistan, let's go to Kim Kardashian's pregnancy". 5. Imprison anyone that exposes the war crimes, Edward Snowden, Bradley Manning, Julian Assange. 6. grant immunity to the "military contractors" that commit war crimes. 7. Discredit John Kerry and any others that took a stand against Vietnam war. 8. Where a pin that claims you support Vets but don't give an extra dime to help.
And here we are today, the media gushing over our "big" bomb drop that cost $8 million and killed 16 to 20 people. That is good value for our tax dollars as long as we do not waste $1 to allow a doctor visit. Thank you Mr Barry you and your group are the real heroes.
2. Turn over all non killing functions to private contractors. Our current crop of veterans do not learn everyday skills like becoming a chef for large groups, or a mechanic. All they learn is how to kill. 3. Keep the news media out of the conflicts, do not let the people see the carnage. 4. Allow the news media to be controlled by entertainment companies, "12 Americans killed in Afghanistan, let's go to Kim Kardashian's pregnancy". 5. Imprison anyone that exposes the war crimes, Edward Snowden, Bradley Manning, Julian Assange. 6. grant immunity to the "military contractors" that commit war crimes. 7. Discredit John Kerry and any others that took a stand against Vietnam war. 8. Where a pin that claims you support Vets but don't give an extra dime to help.
And here we are today, the media gushing over our "big" bomb drop that cost $8 million and killed 16 to 20 people. That is good value for our tax dollars as long as we do not waste $1 to allow a doctor visit. Thank you Mr Barry you and your group are the real heroes.
120
Right on, hfdru. A couple of comments, I left the USAF after four years (I at Ubon RTAF with the 8th Tactical Fighter Wing from right before Woodstock (July 69 to right after the Cambodian "incursion" (July '70). I was active in the VVAW, including at Dewey Canyon III, the April '71 VVAW occupation of the Mall in D.C., Jan Barry (one of the coordinators of the action, along with John Kerry and others) mentions. We wore fatigues at the time. I was never prouder to wear the uniform than I was for those few days. But no one ever called me a baby killer (though I probably was). Nobody spit on me. After going to college and law school (most on the generous GI bill we Vietnam vets got), my vet status was never a hindrance; in fact, it was an advantage. But that is all history. Hfdru's point is critical. We have outsourced the uniform services. Parents have no skin in the game. Wars can now be conducted under the cover of non-disclosure agreements by private "contractors" working with underpaid, over worked "volunteer" GIs. Bring back the draft! If all Americans are at risk, all Americans are involved. I am of the third straight generation of my family to bear arms for this country (as is likely true of most of the other vets who have commented). But I am also the last. My son briefly considered volunteering (looking for adventure), but not terribly seriously. Want to make America great again? Rebuild the American community. Bring back the draft.
I'm sure, like me, there will be many comments from those of us who experienced that hell. I was with 1st and 3rd Amtracs (3rd and 1st MarDiv) 1969-70, long after Jan left Vietnam. I was lucky to have been transferred to Kaneohe, HI after being in-country for only about six months. The war for Marines, at least, was winding down. In Hawaii, we organized what we called the GI Barracks, a group of vets against the war. We met at various places on the leeward side of the island, moving the meeting places frequently. This kind of meeting was considered sedition while serving, and could result in a firing squad. After a time, it broke up. I rotated back to the mainland, and out of the Marines, used the GI Bill, taught at Berkeley for 23 years, and now cringe at the direction America is now going. Americans, it seems, have no memory of the terror of war, and the cruelty of losing a loved one. The next war may be the last - for everyone on earth. Saturday, as a scientist and veteran, I will march for science and peace.
97
Thank you for your post. My cousin was a Marine in Vietnam; he came home against that war and what it did to the people there. He wondered what we had against Ho Chi Minh who liberated his people from the French. He wondered why we felt obliged to get back French plantations. He wondered about those who flew over in Hueys shooting water buffalo; he said those were the tractors Vietnamese had to work their farms. He has sons now; they have not joined the military.
11
I had the good fortune to meet Mr. Barry on a few occasions (which he, surely, will not remember.)
I joined VVAW while a cadet at the US Air Force Academy in the fall of 1972. One of my prized possessions today is my lifetime membership card for that organization. I let my membership drop a few years after originally joining, only to rejoin when GW Bush insisted on taking us into another useless war in 2003.
Yeah, these are my brothers and sisters, all of them. They taught me more than they'll ever know.
I joined VVAW while a cadet at the US Air Force Academy in the fall of 1972. One of my prized possessions today is my lifetime membership card for that organization. I let my membership drop a few years after originally joining, only to rejoin when GW Bush insisted on taking us into another useless war in 2003.
Yeah, these are my brothers and sisters, all of them. They taught me more than they'll ever know.
31
I have nothing to add. Some fellow Marines, as well as as some civilians, questioned my patriotism when we opposed what we were doing in 'Nam.
The same thing happened when I was a civilian working at the local newspaper in late 2002, & I questioned why we were staging gear to invade a sovereign nation despite a UN team finding no WMDs.
Just because everything's different doesn't mean anything's changed.
The same thing happened when I was a civilian working at the local newspaper in late 2002, & I questioned why we were staging gear to invade a sovereign nation despite a UN team finding no WMDs.
Just because everything's different doesn't mean anything's changed.
78
The active draft in place during the Vietnam era had a lot to do with anti-war protestors and their successes. Imagine if we did not have an all-volunteer force at the start of the Afghanistan-Iraq wars. Would anti-draft activists have prevailed again, perhaps forcing another President to retreat?
41
Sundog, I've wondered the same thing: if we had a draft in place would some people think twice before sending men and women to die or be badly injured. A draft would include everyone which means that our reflexively patriotic politicians might have to think twice since their close relatives lives might be at the front or nearby. It's one place where "having skin in the game" means something.
34
Except that the draft never includes everyone. Those with wealth or connections - or a sore foot if you're Trump - get passes. That would include friends and relatives of any mid-level politician on upward. During the Vietnam War one only needed to be in college to be deferred, which pretty much ruled out poor people.
10
College was cheap then (UMass$200 per year). The poor could go IF they had the high school education that would allow them success. Unfortunately, then, as now, poorer communities do not get the pre-college education that allow for success.
1
Thank you for correcting the common myth that protesters against the Vietnam War also shunned and disrespected service members. It's a convenient myth used to discredit those who speak out against war, then and today.
A former Air Force officer, law professor, and author of "A More Perfect Military: How the Constitution Can Make Our Military Stronger"
A former Air Force officer, law professor, and author of "A More Perfect Military: How the Constitution Can Make Our Military Stronger"
38
I very strongly agree with you, Diane.
I've heard over and over about how we, the anti-Vietnam War activists, disrespected returning vets, spitting on them and calling them names. I can't say that that never happened, but I never saw it, and I seemed to be spending more time at demonstrations than anywhere else. (I certainly do remember the bricks and things being rained down on us from construction sites.)
Aside from working alongside VVAW, the greatest interaction I witnessed between vets and activists was working for better treatment from the armed services and the VA. That goes on today.
I've heard over and over about how we, the anti-Vietnam War activists, disrespected returning vets, spitting on them and calling them names. I can't say that that never happened, but I never saw it, and I seemed to be spending more time at demonstrations than anywhere else. (I certainly do remember the bricks and things being rained down on us from construction sites.)
Aside from working alongside VVAW, the greatest interaction I witnessed between vets and activists was working for better treatment from the armed services and the VA. That goes on today.
15
I served in Vietnam for 2 years, 1968 to 1970. I had the interesting experience of my first night in-country being the start of the Tet Offensive. Like many (most?) others I went over as a patriot and came home stunned and cynical, despising what we were doing there.
One of the many mistakes of the military was not to prepare us for what would happen upon our return..that we'd be dropped into a cauldron of discontent and rancor, many of us developing PTSD, with no support. I was one such. I encountered extreme antipathy from so-called "peacenics," including being called a baby killer and being assaulted and spat upon for having been in the war. Those who think it didn't happen need to know that it did. I don't know how often it occurred nationwide, or by whom I was attacked, b/c my mental state was so clouded at the time. Not knowing about PTSD, one's first experience that something is wrong is awakening to having done something dangerous... after you've done it. No memory of what you did, only that someone provoked you. And the real mind-bending thing about it was that I actually agreed with the protesters. It took a long time to sort it all out.
I'm not saying all the protesters, or even many of them, were attacking veterans. But, some did. And, we're still waiting for our parade.
One of the many mistakes of the military was not to prepare us for what would happen upon our return..that we'd be dropped into a cauldron of discontent and rancor, many of us developing PTSD, with no support. I was one such. I encountered extreme antipathy from so-called "peacenics," including being called a baby killer and being assaulted and spat upon for having been in the war. Those who think it didn't happen need to know that it did. I don't know how often it occurred nationwide, or by whom I was attacked, b/c my mental state was so clouded at the time. Not knowing about PTSD, one's first experience that something is wrong is awakening to having done something dangerous... after you've done it. No memory of what you did, only that someone provoked you. And the real mind-bending thing about it was that I actually agreed with the protesters. It took a long time to sort it all out.
I'm not saying all the protesters, or even many of them, were attacking veterans. But, some did. And, we're still waiting for our parade.
9
I too was compelled to act against the unjust, humanitarian catastrophe that was the Viet Nam War.
I was a sailor in the Westpac fleet, assigned to duty on the aircraft carrier Coral Sea CVA-43.
My fellow shipmates formed "SOS!" Stop Our Ship, as a protest against U.S. imperialism, and civilian atrocities.
While our efforts gained some media attention, and presented a raw view of the reality of war to the general public, it was marginalized by the mainstream media.
We were the "disaffected" and many of us courts marshalled on trumped up charges or for disobeying orders.
Did we have an effect on the American publics' perception of the war?
Perhaps in the cumulative, but for all of the serviceman speaking out against this unjust war there was morally no other choice.
I was a sailor in the Westpac fleet, assigned to duty on the aircraft carrier Coral Sea CVA-43.
My fellow shipmates formed "SOS!" Stop Our Ship, as a protest against U.S. imperialism, and civilian atrocities.
While our efforts gained some media attention, and presented a raw view of the reality of war to the general public, it was marginalized by the mainstream media.
We were the "disaffected" and many of us courts marshalled on trumped up charges or for disobeying orders.
Did we have an effect on the American publics' perception of the war?
Perhaps in the cumulative, but for all of the serviceman speaking out against this unjust war there was morally no other choice.
23
Robert, you have my personal thanks. I remember SOS and met a few people involved in it while active in VVAW. People like you are among the reason why I found the courage to come out against the war while in the very institution conducting it. I salute you, all of you.
13
As a Korean War veteran, my husband choose to retire, a Major rather than a Colonel at 20 years in 1968. He never believed in the Vietnam war and was so disappointed that President Kennedy got us into that war, influenced by MacNamara.
19
Kennedy died before that war really got rolling. Dulles was the D.C. hack who pushed that war forward. I like to think Kennedy, a Pacific war veteran, would have pulled back and out. Certainly he would not have supported the corrupt South Vietnamese government. Bobby came out against the war; JFK respected his brother's opinions.
11
You were not "military advisers to a government we had installed."
Your tour apparently ended in 1963, based on the article.
Bao Dai, Head of State for South Vietnam, appointed Ngo Dign Diem as Prime Minister in 1954. In 1955 Diem refused to hold national elections as agreed to in the Paris peace agreement, claiming the north could not be trusted to render an accurate count. Diem proclaimed the Republic of Viet Nam, giving himself complete power over the south, in 1955. He remained in power until a coup approved by the U.S. in November, 1963 resulted in his assassination.
"We" did not install the government who ran South Viet Nam when you served there. We, to some extent, facilitated its removal and replacement, in November 1963, by a military junta led by General "Big" Minh.
Your tour apparently ended in 1963, based on the article.
Bao Dai, Head of State for South Vietnam, appointed Ngo Dign Diem as Prime Minister in 1954. In 1955 Diem refused to hold national elections as agreed to in the Paris peace agreement, claiming the north could not be trusted to render an accurate count. Diem proclaimed the Republic of Viet Nam, giving himself complete power over the south, in 1955. He remained in power until a coup approved by the U.S. in November, 1963 resulted in his assassination.
"We" did not install the government who ran South Viet Nam when you served there. We, to some extent, facilitated its removal and replacement, in November 1963, by a military junta led by General "Big" Minh.
7
If you think that the US did not back Diem in his refusal to hold elections in 1955, you're simply wrong. I can't say the US told Diem what to do, but given everything that is known about how US foreign policy is and has always been conducted, the orders from the Pentagon would not have been necessary.
12
Tom, did the U.S. "install" Diem in 1955?
Cite your sources, please.
Cite your sources, please.
2
Tom, you are correct in your assessment of Diem. He was an American puppet. It seems to me the reason that the vote to unify Vietnam didn't happen is because the Communists were going to win the election and get political control of the whole country. The U.S. couldn't abide Communists taking over their own country, even if it were the same Communists who fought on the U.S. side against the Japanese in World War II. There is some bitter irony there, and it is relevant today in regard to North and South Korea.
2
The French should never have been allowed back into Indochina to do to the people of what are now Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia what the Nazi did to the French during WW2.
The Cold War came and the Russians oppressed eastern Europe. The liberation of colonies should have been a dominant policy of America and the West. It wasn't. So why didn't Ho try to win the hearts and minds of the south? His collectivization in the North was every bit as brutal as that of Stalin and Mao. These communist states were not people's paradises.
So America gets involved tragically. The war was not winnable. Counterinsurgency in areas stripped by colonialism does not exist. A shadow war erupts and then boils over.
The antiwar people abandoned South Vietnam to horrible oppression. Noam Chomsky never visited South Vietnam after "liberation" to see the executions, reeducation camps and prisons. Hundreds of thousands of South Vietnamese fled.
The victory for America came 15 years later with the fall of the Berlin wall. Refugees from Syria and Africa are not fleeing to Russia, Iran and China. They are coming to western liberal democracies that formerly exploited their colonies.
I was in Vietnam in 1971-72 and saw the South Vietnamese resist the communist spring offense. The South Vietnamese fought valiantly. When America withdrew the South was overwhelmed by the Chiese and Russian support of the South and the impunity with which the North raped Cambodia and Laos.
The Cold War came and the Russians oppressed eastern Europe. The liberation of colonies should have been a dominant policy of America and the West. It wasn't. So why didn't Ho try to win the hearts and minds of the south? His collectivization in the North was every bit as brutal as that of Stalin and Mao. These communist states were not people's paradises.
So America gets involved tragically. The war was not winnable. Counterinsurgency in areas stripped by colonialism does not exist. A shadow war erupts and then boils over.
The antiwar people abandoned South Vietnam to horrible oppression. Noam Chomsky never visited South Vietnam after "liberation" to see the executions, reeducation camps and prisons. Hundreds of thousands of South Vietnamese fled.
The victory for America came 15 years later with the fall of the Berlin wall. Refugees from Syria and Africa are not fleeing to Russia, Iran and China. They are coming to western liberal democracies that formerly exploited their colonies.
I was in Vietnam in 1971-72 and saw the South Vietnamese resist the communist spring offense. The South Vietnamese fought valiantly. When America withdrew the South was overwhelmed by the Chiese and Russian support of the South and the impunity with which the North raped Cambodia and Laos.
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Some of the South Vietnamese fought; however, the government was totally corrupt. Ho Chi Minh might have been brutal; he was also the man who beat the French; he was a folk hero. There was never any reason for the U.S. to be there; there was never any reason for American boys to die there. There was no reason to bomb and invade Iraq. We went after bin Laden; he escaped into Pakistan after Cheney ordered the Marines stand down when they had him trapped in a cave. Iraq had oil fields. Afghanistan did not. Cheney evaded the draft for Vietnam. Bush managed to get himself attached to a National Guard unit in New England which was never to be deployed. These were the two "war" leaders who never saw combat. Kerry did fight in Vietnam and returned home against the war. He was declared a traitor. Now, we have another draft dodger drumming up another war. If No. Korea doesn't get rid of their nukes, we'll have to go to war with them. Maybe we should go to war with Israel; they have nukes, too. Or, just send Jared over as part of his foreign policy portfolio. His real estate experience makes him a valuable asset in the area of foreign policy; he can resolve the No. Korea thing; it can't be that much different than negotiating real estate deals.
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Yeah, and I was in IV Corps in Viet Nam, down in the Delta, from late '67 to late '68. The morning after Tet, we got to pick our houseboy out of the wire after the local VC formation had made a pretty good run at taking over our airbase. The MPs had a couple of other wounded houseboys in cages on the north end of the airbase.
Were our houseboys any less Vietnamese than your's?
Were our houseboys any less Vietnamese than your's?
The point is there is a long string of events probably starting with Waterloo, the defeat of Napoleon, the rise of world colonialism, French domination of Indochina after the WW2. There was no reason for Indochina to be a French colony. So Ho defeats the French. Did he allow "choice" for the south? His methods were those of Stalin and Mao and not an enlightened patriot. My guess is that you would argue that North Korea is a successful example of national development. The communist states were equally savage and corrupt, all for a totalitarian ideology. You willfully ignore the crimes committed by Ho and his roll in creating Pol Pot and his crimes. You would argue that America should have withdrawn from Europe after WW2 and let the Russians roll up to the English channel.
There were no American combat troops in the south in 1972. The south fought and with American air support stopped the North which was seeking to use war to gain that which they could not gain peacefully.
Americans dying in South Vietnam and the totality of the war? The cold war and the iron curtain? I don't think Vietnam was winnable and the Americans dying was a tragic mistake. Just don't condone the horrid, savage, bestial aggression of the communists. You are simply intellectually and morally corrupt to ignore what the communists did to Indochina.
There were no American combat troops in the south in 1972. The south fought and with American air support stopped the North which was seeking to use war to gain that which they could not gain peacefully.
Americans dying in South Vietnam and the totality of the war? The cold war and the iron curtain? I don't think Vietnam was winnable and the Americans dying was a tragic mistake. Just don't condone the horrid, savage, bestial aggression of the communists. You are simply intellectually and morally corrupt to ignore what the communists did to Indochina.
Thank you Jan Barry, for your service but more so for your active protest. It was the anti-war movement here in the U.S. that ended the war. Having just returned from Vietnam I have recent experience of just how tragically unnecessary it was. Since that time the military industrial complex and their collaborators in government and elsewhere have effectively shut down the meaningful anti-war protest that is so needed today. And so the bombs continue to rain down, with only occasional and distant glimpses of the hell they create.
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Pro tip: Don't use that hackneyed "thank you for service" phrase indiscriminately on Vietnam vets. Many of us have to suppress an urge to punch you in the face whenever we hear it.
I was an anti-war activist at Long Beach State, a city that was home to the largest navy base on the west coast. It was also home to many Viet-Nam veterans who joined and helped lead the anti-war movement. Viet-Nam Veterans Against the War played a key role in opposing the war. We also were active in bringing the anti-war movement to the base. Far from the myth that anti-war activists were anti-soldier, there were activities at every major base in the US, Japan and the Philippines. The great untold story of the Viet-Nam war is how the peace movement, alongside veterans, organized inside and outside the military.
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As I saw it then and now, Veterans gave credibility to the anti-war movement, otherwise seen by many as young kids afraid to go to war.
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afraid to go to war? or too well-informed to go kill a bunch of strangers for Lockheed profit? answer: choice 2
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This is my memory, too. The anti-war movement really took off after the Vietnam veterans got involved. None could ignore the issue once the veterans started throwing their medals and ribbons over the fence at the Capitol and White House.
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Where was the anti-war movement when we invaded Iraq? Or for that matter, today.
In reading the article I began to think: Where was I in 1967? I was in Vietnam, part of a Seabee battalion who supported the Marines. I returned to New York (I grew up in Queens) that same year and returned to graduate school, finding myself in the midst of anti-war fervor. I remember saying little about where I was while feeling somewhat conflicted about my war experience.
I would not be part of the anti-war movement, mostly through loyalty to my fellow servicemen who were still back in Vietnam but I also questioned why we were there in the first place. I just wanted to forget what I had been through.
There is a certain irony now in that my son went to Vietnam several years ago to work there and wound up marrying a beautiful and charming Vietnamese woman who is the mother of our first grandchild and I love them both dearly. My impression is Americans are quite liked in Vietnam today.
I would not be part of the anti-war movement, mostly through loyalty to my fellow servicemen who were still back in Vietnam but I also questioned why we were there in the first place. I just wanted to forget what I had been through.
There is a certain irony now in that my son went to Vietnam several years ago to work there and wound up marrying a beautiful and charming Vietnamese woman who is the mother of our first grandchild and I love them both dearly. My impression is Americans are quite liked in Vietnam today.
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That's my impression, too. A friend of served with in 1970-71 lives there off and on as an ex-pat. We remain in touch despite the 40 intervening years. The Vietnamese may be unique for one cultural characteristic: the ability to forgive, while not necessarily forgetting.
Were in the same in the Middle East.
Were in the same in the Middle East.
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First and foremost, thank you Jan Barry, for your sacrifice and testimonials. Your actions to expose the war for what it truly was, and your efforts to bring it to an end, are greatly appreciated. As a teenager coming of age in 1970, I greatly admired those that dared speak out against the insanity of of that long delayed "peace with honor".
In my late 40's, I went to Washington to protest the deceitfully misguided Iraq invasion (some mainstream journalists, even in this paper, had the poor judgement to call it "an adventure"). Because of courageous, inspiring actors like yourself, I was compelled to stand up against an equally perverse projection of America's horrible military potential. I was proud that I could represent the massive world protest against that criminal atrocity, as unsuccessful as it was. Just before the Iraq invasion, at a nationally televised press conference, Pres. Bush called the world's largest single protest ever, "a focus group". This seemed to me an even greater perversion of logic than I saw in the 1960's. We've come a long way in the field of human rights since then, thanks to people like you who've been on both 'front lines". The difference in those front lines make them almost incomparable, as you said; yet that's all we civilian protesters can really do. Seeing how easily we as a nation can be falsely convinced to wage war, we have so much more still to do.
In my late 40's, I went to Washington to protest the deceitfully misguided Iraq invasion (some mainstream journalists, even in this paper, had the poor judgement to call it "an adventure"). Because of courageous, inspiring actors like yourself, I was compelled to stand up against an equally perverse projection of America's horrible military potential. I was proud that I could represent the massive world protest against that criminal atrocity, as unsuccessful as it was. Just before the Iraq invasion, at a nationally televised press conference, Pres. Bush called the world's largest single protest ever, "a focus group". This seemed to me an even greater perversion of logic than I saw in the 1960's. We've come a long way in the field of human rights since then, thanks to people like you who've been on both 'front lines". The difference in those front lines make them almost incomparable, as you said; yet that's all we civilian protesters can really do. Seeing how easily we as a nation can be falsely convinced to wage war, we have so much more still to do.
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When Bush 2 ran against Kerry there was another sign of how the public never recognized veterans
Kerry was "swifted". He is a decorated veteran who then very publicly spoke out against the war. A patriot who served his country
Yet people denounced him preferring Bush 2, who found a way to not serve in Vietnam and then took us into another needless war.
And now Trump was elected. He didn't just avoid service but drools over his love for war.
Kerry was "swifted". He is a decorated veteran who then very publicly spoke out against the war. A patriot who served his country
Yet people denounced him preferring Bush 2, who found a way to not serve in Vietnam and then took us into another needless war.
And now Trump was elected. He didn't just avoid service but drools over his love for war.
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It wasn't us lefty anti-war folks who got taken in by the Swift Boating of then-Sen. Kerry. We had been so very grateful for the VVAW members and other openly anti-war vets who made it so much harder for the warmongers to portray us all as unpatriotic cowards for protesting US actions in southeast Asia and later in Iraq.
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Kerry was not all that popular amongst those in the VVAW after 1972. He was seen as an opportunist. Most of us in the Boston VVAW were enlisted, Kerry was an officer with local connections and an Yale degree. We used him and he used us.
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I sat by myself in a room in college with a university tv in it and watched Kerry address Congress. I obviously don't know the man, blemishes and all, but I don't care about his imperfections if he'll forgive me mine. There wasn't one of us in my infantry company who wasn't flawed and not one who wouldn't have laid down his life for another if necessary, regardless. Kerry's address brought tears to my eyes those many years ago. The nation had no right to treat him that way. What the GOP did is a measure of the depths to which we've sunk and I'm concerned about our ability, even our willingness, to get back to the surface.
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I too joined Vietnam Veterans Against the War upon my return from close to a year in combat in the Northern part of I Corps. It may seem to be an over-generalization to claim that those who have seen war up close and personal are more inclined than their non-combatant counterparts to be anti-war. But my experience with a long string of chicken hawks at the Pentagon convinced me that for far to may, war is like a movie or video game; it is both cognitively abstract and far too easy to send someone else to fight and die.
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In May of 1970 when Nixon invaded Cambodia and four of my fellow students were killed at Kent State University by Ohio National Guard bullets, I was working as a staff psychologist at a local mental health center and taking post graduate courses to supplement my masters degree.
J. Edgar Hoover told Ohio governor Rhodes that communist students at Kent State had inspired the student demonstrations . That was nonsense but Rhodes bought it and thought he was a patriot by sending in the Guard.
The four dead students were the last straw for me and I left Ohio forever to the chorus of Ohioans chanting that the students "got what they deserved".
Thirty years later when Bush 2 invaded Iraq for fabricated reasons, I gave up on the American government and decamped to Provence as an expatriate. At my age after countless Vietnams gone by and Trump being elected by the least informed voters, I sincerely doubt if America can ever be saved from itself.
J. Edgar Hoover told Ohio governor Rhodes that communist students at Kent State had inspired the student demonstrations . That was nonsense but Rhodes bought it and thought he was a patriot by sending in the Guard.
The four dead students were the last straw for me and I left Ohio forever to the chorus of Ohioans chanting that the students "got what they deserved".
Thirty years later when Bush 2 invaded Iraq for fabricated reasons, I gave up on the American government and decamped to Provence as an expatriate. At my age after countless Vietnams gone by and Trump being elected by the least informed voters, I sincerely doubt if America can ever be saved from itself.
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Being of the "baby boomer" generation, it seems that the Vietnam War took the lives or souls of our best and brightest members, Bill Shroeder, one of the
murder victims at Kent State was one of those members. He was on a ROTC scholarship (swore to defend the Constitution), was an Eagle Sout and had an A qverage. Basically he was an All-American kid. After having lunch with his parents he was on his way to an early afternoon class (Governor Rhodes evidently did not think it was prudent to close the campus for safety 's sake) about 400 feet away from the Ntional Guard when he was shot through the chest and killed. After the assassinations of JFK and then RFK and MLk in 1968, Kent State made me question what our country was all about. Then came the Patriot Act.
We are now so numb and conditioned that we believe our rights are given to us through the generoosity of the state rather than through the people.
murder victims at Kent State was one of those members. He was on a ROTC scholarship (swore to defend the Constitution), was an Eagle Sout and had an A qverage. Basically he was an All-American kid. After having lunch with his parents he was on his way to an early afternoon class (Governor Rhodes evidently did not think it was prudent to close the campus for safety 's sake) about 400 feet away from the Ntional Guard when he was shot through the chest and killed. After the assassinations of JFK and then RFK and MLk in 1968, Kent State made me question what our country was all about. Then came the Patriot Act.
We are now so numb and conditioned that we believe our rights are given to us through the generoosity of the state rather than through the people.
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michael kittle
Very pretty country, that, around Vaison la Romaine. And not far from Gigondas and Vaucluse. Those are very dear to me when I make cassoulet. Good luck in the coming French elections. Vive le France.
Very pretty country, that, around Vaison la Romaine. And not far from Gigondas and Vaucluse. Those are very dear to me when I make cassoulet. Good luck in the coming French elections. Vive le France.
3
John F. McBride....when I look out the window at the Chateau in Vaison and Mt. Venteux behind I realize what a paradise Provence truly is.
Regardless of the election outcome in May, Provence will still be the same paradise. The French may not love their government but they will always love their country!
Regardless of the election outcome in May, Provence will still be the same paradise. The French may not love their government but they will always love their country!
1