As Garrison Keilllor once reminded his listeners,
after the wedding vows have been exchanged,
the music that is played is not some silly love song,
It is a march --
be it Wagner's or Mendelssohn's,
it is a march.
Not some silly love song,
but a march.
Maybe not a fast march.
But a march.
A stately, heavily cadenced march.
All together now,
ONE two three four, ONE two three four.
after the wedding vows have been exchanged,
the music that is played is not some silly love song,
It is a march --
be it Wagner's or Mendelssohn's,
it is a march.
Not some silly love song,
but a march.
Maybe not a fast march.
But a march.
A stately, heavily cadenced march.
All together now,
ONE two three four, ONE two three four.
2
I would suggest that this article misses an obvious point that explains the resurgent traditionalism. Millennials missed having their mommies stay at home with them.
I am a single mom. Although my very amtibitious and accomplished 16-year-old daughter respects my work ethhic, I know she wishes I'd been at home more.
I am a single mom. Although my very amtibitious and accomplished 16-year-old daughter respects my work ethhic, I know she wishes I'd been at home more.
20
The reason I read this piece was it's title. HELP! What is a "stay-at-home wife"? Is it Donna Rice in "Leave it to Beaver" or is it someone's same-sex partner?
I have 3 children who all fall into the age range that qualify as a millennial. I am also an American citizen currently living in Denmark who worked as an engineer in the U.S. after all 3 of them were born and very much concur with the thinking it is the social safety net that makes life for every citizen (garbage collectors, bartenders etc.) less stressful. My husband and I were fortunate to make a combined income that allowed us to pay for high quality day care and also had company benefits that provided health insurance and good vacation.
Prior to getting to the second part of the piece, I kept thinking that the only reason these millennials feel the way they do is because of their own experiences (negative with both parents working). My three do not feel that way as I believe that the partnership that my husband and I had in providing them with a quality childhood even though both of us were working full time was a fantastic example of both
I have 3 children who all fall into the age range that qualify as a millennial. I am also an American citizen currently living in Denmark who worked as an engineer in the U.S. after all 3 of them were born and very much concur with the thinking it is the social safety net that makes life for every citizen (garbage collectors, bartenders etc.) less stressful. My husband and I were fortunate to make a combined income that allowed us to pay for high quality day care and also had company benefits that provided health insurance and good vacation.
Prior to getting to the second part of the piece, I kept thinking that the only reason these millennials feel the way they do is because of their own experiences (negative with both parents working). My three do not feel that way as I believe that the partnership that my husband and I had in providing them with a quality childhood even though both of us were working full time was a fantastic example of both
8
Note: continuation of an accidentally submitted comment.
Not sure where my previous comment ended prematurely; therefore I will jump to my conclusion. As currently millennials are the guinea pigs of the "both parents are working" social experiment, my conclusion would be is that from a family perspective, it was a total failure. Totally concur with final half of the piece (reminder; I am a female U.S. citizen living in Denmark). Equal partnership with a contribution from every citizen to the well being of all is the way to making everyone happy.
Not sure where my previous comment ended prematurely; therefore I will jump to my conclusion. As currently millennials are the guinea pigs of the "both parents are working" social experiment, my conclusion would be is that from a family perspective, it was a total failure. Totally concur with final half of the piece (reminder; I am a female U.S. citizen living in Denmark). Equal partnership with a contribution from every citizen to the well being of all is the way to making everyone happy.
8
Im a feminist, married, childless gen xer. I work in a millennial environment. Having witnessed countless models of family structures, if the goal is to avoid becoming miserable, I'm convinced it all boils down to one factor: real love. Whether you have two working parents, or one stay at home, it all seems to backfire if kids were the goal before the healthy marriage as a foundation.
20
It takes a lot of self-confidence for a man to admit true equality at home. During the 1990s when economic times were good during the Bill Clinton era, it was not a surprise that men (and women alike) believe that mantra. Since then, US (and with that, there went the fortune of manufacturing sector and so many white working class men) has taken the fall and is still struggling to make the comeback (noted the stagnant wage level and disappearing of even higher-skill jobs that have gone offshore).
Women in general have far less of an ego than men, they have traditionally taken care of the families, dip their toes in high ed to the point where they have eclipsed men in numbers in college, they are also more willing in taking a variety of pink, blue, and white collar jobs, rising only slowly up the ranks, but rise they did. When jobs are aplenty, men don't mind. When jobs are getting scarce, that's a totally different ballgame. I'm thus not surprised at all that the surveys noted in the article show such regressive shift in millennials' opinions. It's not a good thing, and it's not progress, for society at all.
Women in general have far less of an ego than men, they have traditionally taken care of the families, dip their toes in high ed to the point where they have eclipsed men in numbers in college, they are also more willing in taking a variety of pink, blue, and white collar jobs, rising only slowly up the ranks, but rise they did. When jobs are aplenty, men don't mind. When jobs are getting scarce, that's a totally different ballgame. I'm thus not surprised at all that the surveys noted in the article show such regressive shift in millennials' opinions. It's not a good thing, and it's not progress, for society at all.
11
Did the study also ask the question, 'It is much better for everyone involved if a parent--mother or father--stays home to care for children when they are young"? Maybe millennial men aren't just eager to keep wives at home, maybe they (and their wives) recognize that children are better off being cared for and nurtured by their parents, at home. And that there is a quality of life that matters more than more money or a more affluent life style.
Gender equity isn't achieved ONLY through both parents working. There are infinite ways to work out equality. And two working parents both with full time jobs is not the equivalent of 'sharing child care'. Daycare providers are doing the majority of the childcare and parents are with their own children less than those providers. Lots of progressive, feminist parents of all ages have chosen and are choosing to prioritize their children, live small,and develop creative alternatives to two full time jobs (freelancing, part time, etc.)
Gender equity isn't achieved ONLY through both parents working. There are infinite ways to work out equality. And two working parents both with full time jobs is not the equivalent of 'sharing child care'. Daycare providers are doing the majority of the childcare and parents are with their own children less than those providers. Lots of progressive, feminist parents of all ages have chosen and are choosing to prioritize their children, live small,and develop creative alternatives to two full time jobs (freelancing, part time, etc.)
8
Advice to young men: you'd better be able to take care of yourself when she leaves.
15
I have 3 teenagers at home (2 daughters and a son). I'm not sure how seriously I would take their responses to a survey. If you asked them 5 minutes later, you may well get completely different answers.
Sorry - a better head--or subhead-- would be "what do millennial women want?"
10
To the person who complained about women taking up men's spots in college just to stay at home with kids later: they are NOT "your" spots. More women attend college because 1-more women apply and 2-girls get better grades in high school than boys do. So, they got those spots by getting better grades. If a boy wants to get one of those spots, he should study hard in high school instead of partying with his buddies or if not, definitely not blame half the world for his own personal failures.
4
We all know very well that what people want depends on what is available - if childcare is available to most then most would use it (look at Norway, or in communist block when it existed); if it is expensive, only few are (look at UK). If there are well paid jobs for women then women go for them (nowhere to look, really), but if male ones are better paid then women will stay at home. It is not any rocket science. Remove barriers and you'll see. But instead, for so many years too many women's lives were so difficult and up hill that it is no wonder that some give up at start. Why to bother? 1970s and 1980s generations tried and look where they ended up! ..fighting for their - hard earned - pensions now (look up WASPI in UK), most heading straight into poverty. Why? Because of said barriers.
3
“It is much better for everyone involved if the man is the achiever outside the home and the woman takes care of the home and family.”
For most millennials, this is a rhetorical statement. The 1950s model of the nuclear family with the husband as breadwinner and wife as homemaker/mother is gone forever. It's now part of the past because most Americans simply cannot survive financially unless both adults have jobs.
Nonetheless, we respond to this reality by minimizing the importance of the paid work the wife does outside the home. That's where we still feel the gravitational pull of the TV families of the Fifties. Family life revolves around the husband's career. The wife is expected to quit her job and follow her husband as the "trailing spouse" when he relocates for a better opportunity.
And, of course, the wife's work is treated as something to keep her busy until the kids come along and she can dedicate herself to her true mission of being a Super Mom. One of the casualties of this trend are the advanced degrees awarded to women who fail to use them as intended.
God help the woman trying to re-enter the work force in her forties or fifties after having taken a leave from her career to have a family.
This is never going to change because these attitudes are too deeply ingrained in American culture if not in human culture in general. We'll have found the cure for aging before we figure out a way to defeat hegemonic masculinity and the patriarchy.
For most millennials, this is a rhetorical statement. The 1950s model of the nuclear family with the husband as breadwinner and wife as homemaker/mother is gone forever. It's now part of the past because most Americans simply cannot survive financially unless both adults have jobs.
Nonetheless, we respond to this reality by minimizing the importance of the paid work the wife does outside the home. That's where we still feel the gravitational pull of the TV families of the Fifties. Family life revolves around the husband's career. The wife is expected to quit her job and follow her husband as the "trailing spouse" when he relocates for a better opportunity.
And, of course, the wife's work is treated as something to keep her busy until the kids come along and she can dedicate herself to her true mission of being a Super Mom. One of the casualties of this trend are the advanced degrees awarded to women who fail to use them as intended.
God help the woman trying to re-enter the work force in her forties or fifties after having taken a leave from her career to have a family.
This is never going to change because these attitudes are too deeply ingrained in American culture if not in human culture in general. We'll have found the cure for aging before we figure out a way to defeat hegemonic masculinity and the patriarchy.
Do Times articles use enormous generalizations?
4
We do a terrible job of supporting young families in this country. The next step in our forward progress needed to be paid leave for both parents to use. We also need home visits and high-quality child care. Without these things, we risk the well-being of family members when they are most vulnerable.
My grandmother came to Dallas in 1904 on a covered wagon because at that time there were less than 10 miles of paved roads in America. Homes did not have running water or electricity. Things have changed exponentially in little more than 100 years. Families used to live in multigenerational units (think of the Waltons). Grandparents, aunts and uncles, cousins, and older siblings helped new parents to take care of their babies.
While many aspects of modernity have made life better, there are other areas where we have failed to realized or accommodate changes that are harmful. The area of the family (the seat of human development) is where we have failed most.
If we agree that women are full human beings and society (and businesses) prosper when women participate, then we need to build the support structures to facilitate this. There need to be "off ramps" (time off to prepare for birth) and "on ramps" (training updates to re-enter the workforce etc.) so parents are supported and can function optimally when they have small children at home.
My grandmother came to Dallas in 1904 on a covered wagon because at that time there were less than 10 miles of paved roads in America. Homes did not have running water or electricity. Things have changed exponentially in little more than 100 years. Families used to live in multigenerational units (think of the Waltons). Grandparents, aunts and uncles, cousins, and older siblings helped new parents to take care of their babies.
While many aspects of modernity have made life better, there are other areas where we have failed to realized or accommodate changes that are harmful. The area of the family (the seat of human development) is where we have failed most.
If we agree that women are full human beings and society (and businesses) prosper when women participate, then we need to build the support structures to facilitate this. There need to be "off ramps" (time off to prepare for birth) and "on ramps" (training updates to re-enter the workforce etc.) so parents are supported and can function optimally when they have small children at home.
16
You know what is a waste? Women taking mens' spots in college and grad school, then dropping out of the workforce much more often than men when they have kids.
4
Wow that is offensive. I didn't take a "man's spot" in college or grad school. I took MY spot. Furthermore, I didn't quit working to have babies, because when I met men with views like yours, I slammed my thighs shut and chose not to breed.
30
When I applied to law school many years ago, I was told I was taking a man's place. From my class there is a woman US senator, and a woman Chief Justice in the state among other successful women from the class . I'm on the bench myself. On the other hand three or four of the guys have been disbarred. Maybe more women should have taken their place.
36
The culture I graduated engineering school into in 1982 was such a toxic patriarchy that no way could I have the kind of career stability (more than half the women in engineering are driven out of their chosen profession within 5 years) that would allow me to bear and raise a child. And, so, I did not. Thank goodness -- the toxic patriarchy has only gotten worse since, as evidenced by the information in this article. With 'Agent Orange' in charge at the White House and Brillo Reilly on the airwaves -- much, much worse. I've been told "Oh, you must be enjoying your grandchildren at your age...." Nope. These patriarchal fools are driving the planet to a mass extinction that I would not want any child or grandchild to ever see. Better to have never been born at all.
I wish news outlets would start requiring any report on surveys and studies to include a clear paragraph, high up, making clear all the limitations of the study. When you dig into the actual research behind this article, you find pages and pages of information on statistical limitations, and ways in which hypotheses and theses were involved. (https://osf.io/fp5wu/?view_only=29410300bd8143a887fd7080ae65afcb)
And the update line on this article should be at the TOP, not at the bottom. NYT headlines can have a powerful effect on everyone's understanding of gender. 99.999% of readers will take away one general point from an article. It's not up to readers to scroll down and discover that, actually, a central point in the article was flawed.
I basically have a full-time business now correcting misperceptions of men and gender equality. (See joshlevs.com.) Every article that gives too much credence to a new study makes it tougher for people throughout society to get a clear understanding of where things stand and where they're going.
And the update line on this article should be at the TOP, not at the bottom. NYT headlines can have a powerful effect on everyone's understanding of gender. 99.999% of readers will take away one general point from an article. It's not up to readers to scroll down and discover that, actually, a central point in the article was flawed.
I basically have a full-time business now correcting misperceptions of men and gender equality. (See joshlevs.com.) Every article that gives too much credence to a new study makes it tougher for people throughout society to get a clear understanding of where things stand and where they're going.
10
I'm from Western Washington and basically discount any thought coming out of Evergreen State U. Its the home of mediocrity and Leftist fantasies.
4
A single-income family is secretly a dream for many millennials. Doesn't need to be mom or dad who stays home. But, with the challenges brought on by a globalized economy, this is tough to get. Overworked dual-income earners is the norm and there doesn't seem to be a coordinated attempt to fight for profit-sharing which would benefit workers. In this neoliberal meritocracy, being at home with the kids is something you must earn - biology and common sense and kids be damned.
6
Another article NY Times implying a causal relationship without explicitly calling attention to more likely and stronger causal factors (that the NY Times doesn't want to address). Although male millennial perspectives on female roles may be correlated with support levels for Clinton, they are likely not a cause of any lack of support she had in this group.
For one, Clinton is long past child-bearing years. Why would men who believe women should be stay-at-home wives when there are young children in the family have a problem with Clinton being president? Also, what about the more likely factor of millennial disillusionment with the liberal, elite Democratic establishment to which Clinton belonged? I know that is why I, a professional woman, did not vote for Clinton.
Articles like this smack of propaganda and/or sloppy analysis.
For one, Clinton is long past child-bearing years. Why would men who believe women should be stay-at-home wives when there are young children in the family have a problem with Clinton being president? Also, what about the more likely factor of millennial disillusionment with the liberal, elite Democratic establishment to which Clinton belonged? I know that is why I, a professional woman, did not vote for Clinton.
Articles like this smack of propaganda and/or sloppy analysis.
9
What a ridiculous title! What's next - "Why Bras Should be Legislatively Mandated." Wait...scratch that comment, I don't want to give the Trump administration any ideas....
1
Men create, manage, invent nearly everything, and then they must keep it all rolling. The continuous whine and professional victimization cult of the new feminism is bringing down women after 30 years of real progress. Let's face it, many women are uncertain of what they want, and blaming men creates a safe place that feels comforting.
7
Let me guess, you are a man.
21
This is pretty irresponsible article. If you look at the origin of the study, their sample size is too small to draw any meaningful conclusion out of it. Just look at this quote from their paper, "The sample size of 18-25-year-olds in the GSS data is only about 200 respondents in any given year.
Because of this small number, any year-by-year shifts in attitude among this relatively small number of
respondents manifest as dramatic percentage changes that probably exaggerate overall shifts in opinion. "
Because of this small number, any year-by-year shifts in attitude among this relatively small number of
respondents manifest as dramatic percentage changes that probably exaggerate overall shifts in opinion. "
8
Poor Stefanie Coontz! Does she really think that women growing up today are going to put the wishes of men ahead of their own? Did she not witness the women's marches all over the world on January 21rst?
In this era of rising unemployment due in part to greater automation and the need of a more educated workforce, are women really in a position to stay at home? Really! Yes, maybe if are wed to a Silicon Valley millionaire or a Wall Street financier. But even in those instances, more and more women want financial independence and personal professional fulfillment.
The days of female infantilization are coming to an end.
In this era of rising unemployment due in part to greater automation and the need of a more educated workforce, are women really in a position to stay at home? Really! Yes, maybe if are wed to a Silicon Valley millionaire or a Wall Street financier. But even in those instances, more and more women want financial independence and personal professional fulfillment.
The days of female infantilization are coming to an end.
6
Who cares? People want all kinds of things but when those things come at the cost of other people's self-actualization it doesn't matter. I can't believe the question is even posed in 2017.
6
I find it painfully naive to hear millennial moms say that when they are ready to return to work, they will make it happen. Would that it were. More often than not, the time taken off to devote to family formation will be held against you. It will taken as evidence that you are not serious about your career. Your resume will be deep-sixed as soon as it arrives.
It is wrong, it is wasteful, and it is abysmally ignorant of employers to dismiss talented job candidates who hit the pause button to get their families off to a good start. Society as a whole benefits from parental investment in children, but third wave feminists bought into the lie that parental investment is little more than babysitting that can and should be fobbed off to just about anyone. "Supporting families" is typically taken to mean broadening the institutionalization of childhood by offloading even more parental care onto others.
Millennials seem to rejecting this false and very destructive belief. But I don't think they've fully come to terms with just how prejudicial the term "stay at home mom/dad" is. I hope they smash these prejudices and force the workplace to embrace the plain and simple truth that parental investment of time and effort in offspring during the early developmental years of 0-4 is good for society and good for the economy.
It is wrong, it is wasteful, and it is abysmally ignorant of employers to dismiss talented job candidates who hit the pause button to get their families off to a good start. Society as a whole benefits from parental investment in children, but third wave feminists bought into the lie that parental investment is little more than babysitting that can and should be fobbed off to just about anyone. "Supporting families" is typically taken to mean broadening the institutionalization of childhood by offloading even more parental care onto others.
Millennials seem to rejecting this false and very destructive belief. But I don't think they've fully come to terms with just how prejudicial the term "stay at home mom/dad" is. I hope they smash these prejudices and force the workplace to embrace the plain and simple truth that parental investment of time and effort in offspring during the early developmental years of 0-4 is good for society and good for the economy.
5
They don't lose their intellect and work ethics because they are raising children.. In fact, if they are involved, their creativity will be challenged every day.
Perhaps millennials will and can start their own businesses. I have no doubt when they are ready to work outside the home, they will soar much to the loss of those companies who don't want to hire them. Big business and money are not gods to the millennials.
Perhaps millennials will and can start their own businesses. I have no doubt when they are ready to work outside the home, they will soar much to the loss of those companies who don't want to hire them. Big business and money are not gods to the millennials.
2
"It is wrong, it is wasteful, and it is abysmally ignorant of employers to dismiss talented job candidates who hit the pause button to get their families off to a good start."
But employers have so many other candidates from which to choose; why should they select those who have demonstrated a lack of commitment to the workforce? There is certainly no shortage of labor in the United States.
NOT having children is also good for society and good for the economy and far more considerate of the environment; it demonstrates that the childfree person is not consumed with selfishly replicating his/her DNA and has not had a skills-eroding break from fulltime employment. It's a truly exceptional workforce dropout who can best that sort of record when she decides it's convenient to return to paid employment. The non-exceptional might want to ponder their chances.
But employers have so many other candidates from which to choose; why should they select those who have demonstrated a lack of commitment to the workforce? There is certainly no shortage of labor in the United States.
NOT having children is also good for society and good for the economy and far more considerate of the environment; it demonstrates that the childfree person is not consumed with selfishly replicating his/her DNA and has not had a skills-eroding break from fulltime employment. It's a truly exceptional workforce dropout who can best that sort of record when she decides it's convenient to return to paid employment. The non-exceptional might want to ponder their chances.
3
Don't overlook volunteer work......it may not be career continuation, but it beats a blank space in the resume any day.
.....and you get to do some good in the meantime.
.....and you get to do some good in the meantime.
As an elderly man, I say to millennials: Go to another nation, young people.
The future is not in the United States. You will be happier in a more progressive advanced economy. And so will your children.
Soon they are going to need to build a wall to keep Americans from leaving the country.
The future is not in the United States. You will be happier in a more progressive advanced economy. And so will your children.
Soon they are going to need to build a wall to keep Americans from leaving the country.
16
When our children were small they were my wife's job. I had up to three jobs at a time. Now I have one job, four days a week and the other job is my Grandson two or three days a week. I've spent more direct quality time with him than I was able to with my children, it's great. His Grandmother thinks it's great too because I take care of the diapers.
6
A title which focuses on what millennial men want is automatically polarizing and regressive .What about focusing on what millennial parents want ( which, by the way would encompass all sorts of parents; straight, gay, transgender, etc) Do they want one parent to stay home while the children are infants and toddlers - and even beyond those early years?
The title and illustration also gives the impression that only traditional make/female partnerships are the primary focus and the ones most worth attention. That's unfortunate.
The title and illustration also gives the impression that only traditional make/female partnerships are the primary focus and the ones most worth attention. That's unfortunate.
5
I certainly want my wife to stay a home: less chance of her meeting my mistress.
7
Patriarchy was a box in which many men lived. But "progressive" or "feminist" is another box in which too many contemporary men and women live.
Why be obsessed with being "egalitarian"?
Do whatever makes you happy.
It would make sense if women did not have to work while the children were young and had to work only part time when children were school age but not yet in college.
But we do not know how to arrange for this mix of the old and the new.
Why be obsessed with being "egalitarian"?
Do whatever makes you happy.
It would make sense if women did not have to work while the children were young and had to work only part time when children were school age but not yet in college.
But we do not know how to arrange for this mix of the old and the new.
1
A modest proposal: One parent stay at home with the children and deal with raising a family. We say we value our children but push them to the back of the line. A person who stays home to raise children is devalued by our society no matter how much lip service we give them. No one says ooh to a baby's ahh like a parent. I realize not everyone can afford this privilege but perhaps part-time. Parents who both work (overtime) are stressed, their children are stressed. It takes time to raise and child and make a "home". I felt it was worth it and my children's smiles were all the appreciation I needed. Do we need the latest electronics, cars, big houses? We show our values by the choices we makes.
5
It's time to re think this "I got to have kids" thing. It may fulfill you but how can you bring a child into a world that is already over populated and quickly turning into dreck. Imagine what shape the earth will be like in 50 or 100 years. Glad I won't be here.
9
And sadly I think most people can better articulate why they chose their latest make/model of vehicle, or phone or sofa, than why they feel the need to replicate. It sure doesn't sound like the parents have much fun when reality hits. Why are there thousands of histrionic, unhappy-sounding mommy blogs, thousands of "i regret having kids" sites online and zero "I hate my childfree life" blogs by those who have eschewed parenthood?
(And spare us the "you should be grateful because our kids will keep the human species going..." justifications; the human species would do well to reduce itself by half or more for the sake of other creatures on the planet. We don't need your offspring, actually.)
(And spare us the "you should be grateful because our kids will keep the human species going..." justifications; the human species would do well to reduce itself by half or more for the sake of other creatures on the planet. We don't need your offspring, actually.)
7
Day care is not "someone else raising your kids."
I can't believe how many times I've heard self righteous people casually throw this insult around. So rude!
I can't believe how many times I've heard self righteous people casually throw this insult around. So rude!
Millennial men, stop trying to have your cake and eat it too. And what do Millennial women want? That is an important question too!
6
For heaven's sake, the author never gets to write the headline. That's the headline writers' job, and of course they want to grab your attention, even -- or especially -- if it makes you mad. Focus on what SHE says, not what the headline says, and whatever you think of the article, there's nothing in it to suggest she thinks it's more important what men think than what women think.
We are NOT equal, never have been. 'Nuf said.
1
Who doesn't want a stay at home wife? What a great thing to have someone take care of all the grunge work and organizing of the family? In the first issue of Ms Magazine there was an article "What I need is a Wife" and it was an eye opener for me, a stay at home mom at that time. The gig is not one that is any fun at all for the mom who does not have tons of money--at least, that was my experience. And really, it is not good for men, either. So, this will pass and we will go back to the future of more equal marriages once women push for it AGAIN!!
8
In the case of millennials and everyone else: do what you think is best for your family/household and to heck with the opinions of others. The only caveat is that before you make a life altering decision of any kind, be sure to weigh the possible outcomes of your decision and if things fall out, don't blame anyone or expect the world to rescue you.
3
In 2016 (year of the election), 89% of Millennial men *disagreed" with the statement, "It is much better for everyone involved if the man is the achiever outside the home and the woman takes care of the home and family." Yes, you've added a disclaimer but this article remains a misleading analysis of what "might have happened" with the elections.
2
Hillary Clinton was "extremely qualified" to be president? I don't see it, unless sucking up to Wall Street and corporate America is now a necessary qualification for the presidency.
6
Exactly, that is what lil'donnie has done his whole life searching for love from the big boys. Maybe they will love him now that he got the gold ring. Ha Ha
2
On the issue of equality between men and women having been reached: In higher ed, women now outnumber men 55 to 45 percent. Yet there are robust programs (women's resource centers, etc) to support women, but nothing comparable for men. When a male student asked "Where is the men's resource center?" he was told, by a senior female staffer, "It's the rest of campus." Women in leadership positions should think about the role they play in creating a backlash against the equality movement.
4
My wife stopped working two years ago to mind the kids. Our family's never been happier. The kids love it, she loves it, I love it. Not saying this is the ideal setup for everybody. But it works for us.
9
This is an exceedingly complex subject; harder to understand because we are all in the middle of it. Women all throughout history have had to juggle their desire for autonomy with their dependence on men. For most of history, women's survival (and even more importantly to them, the survival of their children) depended on them forming an alliance with a man who would protect and provide for them. So, women found out what it took to keep men around, and mostly it involved sex, food, obsequious flattery and women allowing themselves to be subjugated. (If you object to the term "obsequious flattery," call it charm.) Usually this worked.
Now, of course, technology and "civilization" have brought us to a place where women can sometimes support themselves. Women want to throw off the shackle of subjugation, but men kind of like the old system. All this is complicated by many factors, including the collusion of some women to keep the old model, but here we are.
Now, of course, technology and "civilization" have brought us to a place where women can sometimes support themselves. Women want to throw off the shackle of subjugation, but men kind of like the old system. All this is complicated by many factors, including the collusion of some women to keep the old model, but here we are.
6
Just got out of high school, now at university. Truly, I tell you older people, this "equality" narrative is starting to die. This egalitarianism goal has already been achieved and my generation recognizes that any further is just a push for matriarchy. There is fierce resistance in my generation to this, more than you know. Traditionalism will return. The "gender revolution is dying." All of the guys I know that want a family want traditionalist wives. These women who want to carry on this sort of "gender revolution" in the next generation will not be able to spread their values because they will not have a husband and they will not have children to spread it with. The "gender revolution's" original goals (actual egalitarianism) have been achieved, and truly I tell you, it will die with the next generation as it utters its last breaths with this one. There will be no matriarchy, and many decades from now will begin the ascent up into traditionalism once again. Third-wave feminism, (insert gender here) empowerment, "inequality," "(insert leftist 'progressive' concept here) revolution," and so forth, all of these things are dead to my generation and are disliked by it. By the coming generations, these things will be hated. What comes to you is a repeat of the '60s and '70s but on the other side of the political spectrum. Be ready and expect it, and don't be shocked!
4
Don't millennial women have any say in whether they stay home with the kids? Don't marry a man who doesn't want what you want. It's as simple as that.
4
A better question would be, do millennial women want wives? Cf. Judy Syfers' classic essay "I want a wife." It concludes with the self-evident line, "My god, who wouldn't want a wife?"
8
Males are less mature in high school than they are in their 20's. Females are more mature in general than males in those high school days, that is what I recall. I speak from my own age and the parent of two millennials.
So, so very much changes when these fledglings are allowed to fly the nest and explore the world, rather than be forced or limited by resources to stay at home and accept all as normal.
Let them fly, they will soar.
So, so very much changes when these fledglings are allowed to fly the nest and explore the world, rather than be forced or limited by resources to stay at home and accept all as normal.
Let them fly, they will soar.
I lived in Salt Lake City for 20 years--college, marriage, and all my friends were Mormon--not me.
But The Church elders made some good points. Their religion is built around the family--Family Home Evening every Monday, a year of food storage to use and recycle, the Bishops in each Ward were there to help out families in need, their wards ALL had basketball courts.
They spoke about spending more time with your children. (The median number was FIVE...meaning I knew moms with 15-16 children and none had a TV show.) They counseled that it wasn’t worth it to work two jobs or overtime if it took time away from your family life. No need to buy a bigger home or new car each year, expensive vacations--it was all about family. If dad stayed home--good--FINALLY they agree that it’s a good idea if Mom has a career.
I’ll give you one statistic that says a lot. When I lived in Utah in the 1960s and 1970s, 90% of homes had a piano! My best friend Elizabeth is an NP, plays violin in the SL Symphony and teaches cello and violin. All four daughters play piano, cello, clarinet, and violin. All four went to MIT, Harvard, U Chicago, Wm and Mary, grad degrees at UNC, UC Riverside and Berkeley.
Utah has amazing families. I lived next door to the President of the Church--never discussed the Bible, Book of Mormon--no it was Shakespeare, Philosophers, theater.
Instead of “Who stays at home” it was “How do we best raise our family.”
But The Church elders made some good points. Their religion is built around the family--Family Home Evening every Monday, a year of food storage to use and recycle, the Bishops in each Ward were there to help out families in need, their wards ALL had basketball courts.
They spoke about spending more time with your children. (The median number was FIVE...meaning I knew moms with 15-16 children and none had a TV show.) They counseled that it wasn’t worth it to work two jobs or overtime if it took time away from your family life. No need to buy a bigger home or new car each year, expensive vacations--it was all about family. If dad stayed home--good--FINALLY they agree that it’s a good idea if Mom has a career.
I’ll give you one statistic that says a lot. When I lived in Utah in the 1960s and 1970s, 90% of homes had a piano! My best friend Elizabeth is an NP, plays violin in the SL Symphony and teaches cello and violin. All four daughters play piano, cello, clarinet, and violin. All four went to MIT, Harvard, U Chicago, Wm and Mary, grad degrees at UNC, UC Riverside and Berkeley.
Utah has amazing families. I lived next door to the President of the Church--never discussed the Bible, Book of Mormon--no it was Shakespeare, Philosophers, theater.
Instead of “Who stays at home” it was “How do we best raise our family.”
5
Very simple.
It's not men versus women.
It's men versus men.
Men want a wife who compares well to other mens' wives.
If other men have beautiful wives, then I want one also.
If other men have successful professional wives, then I want one also.
If other men have wives who are mothers, then I want one also.
If other men have wives who have it all, then I want one as well.
It's competition.
In nature, competition is the name of the game.
As for other women.
Also very simple.
Women who complain about their husbands or other men are not my problem.
They are my opportunity.
Not necessarily in a sexual sense.
Just in of the sense of an opportunity to look good by comparison.
To get along better in the workplace when we work together.
To get better service at whatever establishment they may be employed.
It's not men versus women.
It's men versus men.
Men want a wife who compares well to other mens' wives.
If other men have beautiful wives, then I want one also.
If other men have successful professional wives, then I want one also.
If other men have wives who are mothers, then I want one also.
If other men have wives who have it all, then I want one as well.
It's competition.
In nature, competition is the name of the game.
As for other women.
Also very simple.
Women who complain about their husbands or other men are not my problem.
They are my opportunity.
Not necessarily in a sexual sense.
Just in of the sense of an opportunity to look good by comparison.
To get along better in the workplace when we work together.
To get better service at whatever establishment they may be employed.
2
Gender division arose in prehistory, so we have gene collections directing us, albeit generally, on how to behave. The millennials more than any other generation have watched thousands of hours on TV and movies portraying the evolutionary gender roles. No wonder they are returning to the evolutionary roles.
The challenges of 400,000 years ago that resulted in natural selection of gender roles are not the same as today. But we are stuck with that DNA. In some ways, the pendulum of freedom reached a peak and is coming down. And this may be happening in tandem with the rise in violence worldwide, which women cannot by themselves confront.
The challenges of 400,000 years ago that resulted in natural selection of gender roles are not the same as today. But we are stuck with that DNA. In some ways, the pendulum of freedom reached a peak and is coming down. And this may be happening in tandem with the rise in violence worldwide, which women cannot by themselves confront.
The overwhelming majority of women who stay at home today in 2017 in the immense majority of the world,stay at home because they are excluded from education and from the world of work.
Come on ,fellow Americans. Look out your window...
Come on ,fellow Americans. Look out your window...
1
I hope that millennial men and women *want* a less stressful more rewarding life than has been the norm since the 70's when women left the home and went to work. That has left a couple of generations of people who struggled with work/family obligations. How they work that out is their choice, and my best wishes go out to them.
2
Gosh, do you think this has anything to do with what we see as the breakdown of the family on full display particularly in the cities, and that perhaps people are moving back to a more nuanced view as to whether two working parents results in healthy kids?
2
If both are each not earning equal amount of money - WAGE GAP!!!!
2
I don't even have kids and I want a stay at home wife - and my wife agrees (i.e., we discuss the need for a mutual stay at home wife)!
With most service industries still open from 9-5, when do you have time to address the complexities of life? House repairs, car repairs, drop off the dry cleaning, call the bank, etc...
I have no idea how you breeders do it - from what I overhear at work, you spend a lot of time coordinating getting the kids from school to aftercare to the nanny to the in-laws to the babysitter - it takes a village, or something like that...
With most service industries still open from 9-5, when do you have time to address the complexities of life? House repairs, car repairs, drop off the dry cleaning, call the bank, etc...
I have no idea how you breeders do it - from what I overhear at work, you spend a lot of time coordinating getting the kids from school to aftercare to the nanny to the in-laws to the babysitter - it takes a village, or something like that...
8
Interesting article, but grossly misnamed--should have been "Lack of Childcare Turns Couples to Traditional Divisions of Labor. Turns out, the couples who decide to go the traditional route are those that have decided to put their children first. If the US had decent maternity and childcare policies, these numbers would be very different.
3
So, the push for more equality stalled in the mid 1990s? Isn't that when, for the first time in 40 years, the GOP took control of Congress and have held it ever since, except for 4 years in the 2000s?
The decline in this attitude can be attributed to the constant rightward march of Movement Conservatism with no counter balancing movement on the left (Bernie and Liz are not in and of themselves a movement.)
Baby Boomers passed on to their kids (the Gen Xers of the 1977-mid 90s era) the importance of equality. But with conservatives in control of government top to bottom it is no wonder the work-life balance has become unattainable and a major marital stressor.
The decline in this attitude can be attributed to the constant rightward march of Movement Conservatism with no counter balancing movement on the left (Bernie and Liz are not in and of themselves a movement.)
Baby Boomers passed on to their kids (the Gen Xers of the 1977-mid 90s era) the importance of equality. But with conservatives in control of government top to bottom it is no wonder the work-life balance has become unattainable and a major marital stressor.
What if millenials, having grown up during a time when the concept of gender equality was already broadly accepted, simply feel more free to make life choices that fit more with their desires and needs, and less with their drive to overcompensate from any experience of inequality? What if it's not slippage at all, but a generation less conditioned to view themselves as part of the traditional model in the first place?
4
It is fascinating that in this article about the families, work, and children, not a word is said about what is best for the children!!
Children are the future of our society and the main problem people discuss here is "getting childcare," that is, hiring someone to take care of your kids. The dismissive way they talk about it, one would almost think they are talking about hiring a dog walker.
During the sea change in women working from the 80s to the present, there should be enough data comparing children who grew up with a stay-at-home mother who was generally there when they came home from school, and a steady presence in their lives, vs. a professional mother who leaves the house at 8 a.m., comes home at six p.m., throws dinner together, or orders takeout, and after a brief "quality" conversation, spends the evening answering work emails.
Topics for research might include: how much attention a child needs from his/her parents from birth through high school, especially from mothers, to grow into stable mature adults; what they are getting from the hired nannies/ babysitters, some of whom are competent, but a lot of whom spend most of their time on their cell phones; the effect of the turnover of childcare givers, leaving an unstable feeling in the child, and last but not least, the relationship between the issue of the generation raised by working mothers and the increase in drug use in that very generation.
Children are the future of our society and the main problem people discuss here is "getting childcare," that is, hiring someone to take care of your kids. The dismissive way they talk about it, one would almost think they are talking about hiring a dog walker.
During the sea change in women working from the 80s to the present, there should be enough data comparing children who grew up with a stay-at-home mother who was generally there when they came home from school, and a steady presence in their lives, vs. a professional mother who leaves the house at 8 a.m., comes home at six p.m., throws dinner together, or orders takeout, and after a brief "quality" conversation, spends the evening answering work emails.
Topics for research might include: how much attention a child needs from his/her parents from birth through high school, especially from mothers, to grow into stable mature adults; what they are getting from the hired nannies/ babysitters, some of whom are competent, but a lot of whom spend most of their time on their cell phones; the effect of the turnover of childcare givers, leaving an unstable feeling in the child, and last but not least, the relationship between the issue of the generation raised by working mothers and the increase in drug use in that very generation.
4
A lot of mothers spend most of their time on their cell phones too.
7
I don't know about you, but I see tons of parents on their cell phones when they're out with their kids. My SIL is always on her phone instead of paying attention to the kids.
3
Men making more money than women and having more power is still the default setting, and the easier option at high income levels. At lower income levels, not so much, and the need for 2 working parents is high. Two real sticking points remain: lack of good child care for all and a crazy 24/7 work culture that defines career 'success'.
In my view, the key to successful marriage and double careers is good live-in help and separate bathrooms.
5
Both my parents had to work. Mom started later, got home later and Dad the reverse. Dad got home not long after the crew of us arrived home from school: dinner, extra-curriculars, laundry, clean up....mostly attended to in the 2.5 hrs before Mom got home from work. My two sisters-in-law have many times thanked my Mom for raising boys who know what it means to be part of a family/knowing how to do laundry, cook, clean a bathroom....my Dad flips every time...."It was me, I taught them all that!".
9
I stayed at home and taught my daughter to take out the garbage and my son to load the dishwasher. I felt it was my job to teach them to take care of themselves. When they went to college, I knew they didn't "need" me anymore. That also included,a moral, financial and cooking eductiom.
I always told them I stayed home to be their mother not their maid. My job was to let them go.
I always told them I stayed home to be their mother not their maid. My job was to let them go.
3
I wonder, Do Millennial Women Want Stay-At-Home Husbands?
5
ridiculous that people are still debating men vs. women. (yawn. if they haven't figured that out yet, they shouldn't be granted a marriage license.) shouldn't the question be, what do COUPLES want for their households and families and what solution is most effective in time and economics.
Given the over-population crisis, the best way for women to achieve equality is to forgo having children.
2
This study isn't controlled for many factors, including ethnicity, and that is the key to most of this change in attitudes as European immigration dropped dramatically from 1965 onward and non-white immigration soared once discriminatory immigration laws were dismantled. Let me be clear: I am pro-immigration. I'm just not blind to some of the impediments that occur as each new wave of newcomers assimilates. Fortunately, these typically go away by the 2nd generation.
Millennials are by far the most ethnically diverse generation ever in this country. In the past 25 years, the number of high school students who are either from a non-western advanced economy or whose parents are, has increased quite significantly. The kids who come here at a young age or who are born to parents from much more traditional, patriarchal societies keep a great deal of those cultural beliefs when it comes to women. Sadly, this is actually one of the lesser discussed reasons why Silicon Valley and IT have such a problem with a bro' culture and discriminatory, if not even outright misogynistic at times, tendencies toward women.
We as a society need to do more to reinforce the importance that gender equality has in American society and be explicit in our messaging to all young people, regardless of origin. A more egalitarian society doesn't just benefit women or certain ethnic or racial groups. It has been shown repeatedly that we all win economically and socially when we treat women like equals.
Millennials are by far the most ethnically diverse generation ever in this country. In the past 25 years, the number of high school students who are either from a non-western advanced economy or whose parents are, has increased quite significantly. The kids who come here at a young age or who are born to parents from much more traditional, patriarchal societies keep a great deal of those cultural beliefs when it comes to women. Sadly, this is actually one of the lesser discussed reasons why Silicon Valley and IT have such a problem with a bro' culture and discriminatory, if not even outright misogynistic at times, tendencies toward women.
We as a society need to do more to reinforce the importance that gender equality has in American society and be explicit in our messaging to all young people, regardless of origin. A more egalitarian society doesn't just benefit women or certain ethnic or racial groups. It has been shown repeatedly that we all win economically and socially when we treat women like equals.
4
The recent economic stagnation of middle-class wages may be causing a shift in thoughts on gender equality. When good jobs get scarce, men start to resent having to compete with women for those jobs. Then talk about women's roles starts all over again.
Good grief, I hope we don't have to relive that part of the 1950's over again.
Good grief, I hope we don't have to relive that part of the 1950's over again.
3
I am a college-educated woman that has spent most of my married years as a stay-at-home mom. This decision has sometimes been difficult and sometimes rewarding. I imagine that for all parents, whether you choose to stay home or work, your choice is sometimes difficult, and sometimes rewarding.
The issue to me is really that most of us don't have much of a choice: some families absolutely have to have two incomes, not because they are addicted to "stuff" but because they have to make ends meet; other families (like mine) discover there is no way to stay home with a sick child or sign your child up for sports or after-school activities unless a parent is home. The place I lived simply did not have the resources for care or transportation and my employers mostly offered an "earned" 1/2 day of sick time for every month you worked at the company. So, after one year of working with no days off, you have 6 days available for the year. That just doesn't work with 2 small children.
As a rich technologically advanced society, I think we could do so much better than this at offering parents a true choice.
The issue to me is really that most of us don't have much of a choice: some families absolutely have to have two incomes, not because they are addicted to "stuff" but because they have to make ends meet; other families (like mine) discover there is no way to stay home with a sick child or sign your child up for sports or after-school activities unless a parent is home. The place I lived simply did not have the resources for care or transportation and my employers mostly offered an "earned" 1/2 day of sick time for every month you worked at the company. So, after one year of working with no days off, you have 6 days available for the year. That just doesn't work with 2 small children.
As a rich technologically advanced society, I think we could do so much better than this at offering parents a true choice.
It is what is best for children, in an ideal world. It would benefit everyone if the U.S. mandated paid family leave and child care grants, etc. I favor some sort of program that would pay parents who stay home -- call it a professional parent salary -- for a certain period of time. Maybe they can be required to volunteer a certain number of hours at schools or day cares as a condition of participation in the program. The guaranteed minimum income idea that has been kicked around also strikes me as a good idea that would help families. If you want people to have children and raise them well, you should first acknowledge that it is far, far better for their actual parents to raise them than nannies or day cares and parents are better parents when they are not stressed and wondering where the next house payment is going to come from. In general, at least in my experience, women are more interested in doing the day to day child care than men. I do not have kids, for a lot of reasons, but income and the profession I chose is certainly one of them.
1
But many of us don't want to smooth the way for our economic peers. Why should I get up and work harder only to have my wages redistributed to the breeding pair down the street who could, if they so chose, have an income far greater than mine?
Producing bio-offspring is no longer necessary in the United States; immigration will take care of all our future needs for labor, consumption and "who's going to pay your social security??" We do not need to subsidize the production of homegrown citizens any longer, ergo we don't need to rob childfree citizens disproportionately on April 15 and in many other ways, so that those who feel the itch to bio-breed can be satisfied on someone else's dime.
Plan, partner up with someone like-minded and stable, and save up for the early childhood years' expenses just as the rest of us save up for big-ticket items we want. Or, do without.
Producing bio-offspring is no longer necessary in the United States; immigration will take care of all our future needs for labor, consumption and "who's going to pay your social security??" We do not need to subsidize the production of homegrown citizens any longer, ergo we don't need to rob childfree citizens disproportionately on April 15 and in many other ways, so that those who feel the itch to bio-breed can be satisfied on someone else's dime.
Plan, partner up with someone like-minded and stable, and save up for the early childhood years' expenses just as the rest of us save up for big-ticket items we want. Or, do without.
If Americans were paid a living wage like the WWII generation, then this would be a choice for married couples with children. The need for two incomes just to maintain a decent standard of living (not talking about vacation homes or houses with 3 car garages) has masked the loss of buying power for most Americans in the last 35 years. Trickle down economics didn't work and women are expected to bear the burden.
1
Nonsense. it is quite possible to have a decent standard of living with a couple of dependents on the median income, in many areas of the country. Many. But most breeders don't want to make the necessary trade-offs.
This article is interesting but really only applicable to those families with any hope of being a one-income earner family. Even then, the stay-at-home parent is taking a big risk in bowing out of the workforce for a decade or more. If your marriage ends after ten or fifteen years, the non-working spouse will likely never again independently attain an income level similar to that of their marriage. Unless you've been married for 20 years or are divorcing someone spectacularly affluent, alimony-for-life is almost never awarded. The non-working spouse finds her/himself divorced in early-middle age with very rusty skills and a period of alimony that will end long before social security kicks in. It's hard to re-invent yourself at 40, harder still to go from earning zero to $70,000/year or more. I've watched it play out in a close relationship and it is terrifying and grim. There's no blame here and the choices - to stay home and later to divorce - seemed right and negotiable at the time. Now, a dozen years post-divorce, one party is doing very well, the other earns $12/hour. No doubt balancing family and work is tough, but not finding that balance could prove devastating down the road.
8
Amen.
It is ironic that the stay-at-home spouse is most often characterized as a conservative ideal that's rejected by progressive minded people. In my circle, people span the entire political spectrum. The commonality is that we are college educated (most with advanced degrees) professionals--both husband and wife. We span the tail end of Boomer and lead edge of Gen X. The irony is that the more politically progressive the couple, the more likely there is a stay-at-home spouse. I say spouse because it is sometimes the husband who stays at home. From my interactions, I would say the more conservative couples do so, not out of professional fulfillment or gender equality, but out of the desire for more money. The reason this is an interesting demographic is because all of these families can economically choose to have a stay-at-home spouse. Of course, of the few families I know where they are very wealthy (top 0.01 percenters), this pattern does not hold up. Given all the pressures of life and the delusion of finding child care equal in quality to a stay-at-home spouse, the reality is that it is always better for the children if there is someone always there for them. Most families would choose that option if they could afford it.
1
Business corporations who are masters in Corporatocracies like in the USA and european countries want every human being male or female to work and increase production to make more profits for the rich to become richer .More the females the better because of cheaper labour when women get employed . Corporations have various staple excuses for paying women less.The corporate failures and deficiencies are passed on to the shoulders of women and, women are brainwashed to believe that business corporations are doing a great favor to employ them at all for lower wages .
In eastern culture the middle class women are supposed to stay at home and mind the home and the children while men earn whatever they can for the family.The family is expected to live within their means thus making life peaceful,happy and healthy mentally and physically for the family and children. Family values take precedence over corporate profit-oriented values spreading satisfaction and peace in society .
Lured by the false carrot hung before them of becoming a millionaire before one hits age thirty Western Corporatocracies exploit labour of both men and women and make society care less about the growing children and their emotional and physical needs and well-being sacrificing them at the altar of corporate profiteering policies , generating out of proportion dissatisfactions over one's life at human levels.
In eastern culture the middle class women are supposed to stay at home and mind the home and the children while men earn whatever they can for the family.The family is expected to live within their means thus making life peaceful,happy and healthy mentally and physically for the family and children. Family values take precedence over corporate profit-oriented values spreading satisfaction and peace in society .
Lured by the false carrot hung before them of becoming a millionaire before one hits age thirty Western Corporatocracies exploit labour of both men and women and make society care less about the growing children and their emotional and physical needs and well-being sacrificing them at the altar of corporate profiteering policies , generating out of proportion dissatisfactions over one's life at human levels.
It would have been so refreshing to see the headline, "Do Millenials want to be Stay-at-Home-Mothers."
1
Building a family requires teamwork. There are duties that need to be taken care of - appointment scheduling, supervising children's school progress, bill paying, housework, garden work. Sure there needs to be income, but there also needs to be an adult with enough time in the home to take care of the basics. Children have rights, too and paid day care and other paid services are not always an adequate substitute for a loving home.
I had the luxury (and also the necessity as an immigrant Mom in Germay trying to prepare my children for a school that spoke a "foreign language") of staying home and making things work smoothly. My husband took on the responsibility of providing the income whether the employment situation was pleasant for him or not.
During those years he would complain that the kids didn't always tell him a lot about their day. Later when I went back to work and he came home first, things reversed and I never got to know the knitty gritty of the boys' day.
Somebody needs to keep the family intact - doesn't really matter who, but just everybody doing corporate stuff and buying everything ready made doesn't make that family unit cohesive.
I had the luxury (and also the necessity as an immigrant Mom in Germay trying to prepare my children for a school that spoke a "foreign language") of staying home and making things work smoothly. My husband took on the responsibility of providing the income whether the employment situation was pleasant for him or not.
During those years he would complain that the kids didn't always tell him a lot about their day. Later when I went back to work and he came home first, things reversed and I never got to know the knitty gritty of the boys' day.
Somebody needs to keep the family intact - doesn't really matter who, but just everybody doing corporate stuff and buying everything ready made doesn't make that family unit cohesive.
I don't see any evidence that a belief that it's better if men worked and women stayed home is somehow a vote against equality.....
Equal rights don't mean equal results. Women get pregnant and give birth to children, not men.
Equal rights don't mean equal results. Women get pregnant and give birth to children, not men.
Its about time someone in society realized the destruction caused by radical feminism, to both the nuclear family and our children in particular.
As a woman entering the workforce in the early 1970s, I always wanted a "wife," a husband who would stay home and take care of the family and me while I pursued my caeer, the way traditional women then did for men. Never found one. I'm better off single than if I had married and been forced to be a traditional wife, which would literally have driven me crazy.
4
As a woman, my very first thought upon reading this headline, even before my visceral reaction to picture was taken into account, was "Who Cares?" I will go on to read the article, which I'm sure has many positive aspects to it, but I think it's way beyond the time when young women should train their focus on what THEY want. My daughter just graduated college, and thank goodness exploring the question of what she should do with her life is what occupies her energies.
2
The traditional gender balance of roles in the household is very convenient for men. It gives men support with the household task so they don't have to worry about them. It takes women out of the workforce so the man don't have to compete with them. It lets men claim to be the decision-makers. What I saw with my parents' generation where these roles were enforced was that the men thought they were making decisions but the women really did.
Who says the woman has to stay home? Maybe they can take turns every 5 years. Just think how close they will be to their children?
The really big issue that no one talks about is why is it necessary in 2017 for two adults to work outside the home for a family to survive
When I grew up in the 1950's one spouse could afford to stay home.
This is the greatest question on income inequality.
Does one adult working outside the home in 2017 make half as much as one adult in 1957?
Why is it that in the wealthiest nation on the face of the earth people can work for a lifetime and end up without enough to leave to their children so that their children do not have to struggle all over again to try to obtain a decent standard of living?
I remember being told in college to major in "Leisure Studies" because in the future because people would have lots of free time. Economic advances would lead to people having to work fewer hours for a higher standard of living.
I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but it sure seems to me that our corporate overlords cut all wages in half when women started to work outside the home.
And it seems to me that the top 1% still have it as good, if not better, in 2017 as they did in 1957.
What's wrong with this picture? And why do we put up with it?
When I grew up in the 1950's one spouse could afford to stay home.
This is the greatest question on income inequality.
Does one adult working outside the home in 2017 make half as much as one adult in 1957?
Why is it that in the wealthiest nation on the face of the earth people can work for a lifetime and end up without enough to leave to their children so that their children do not have to struggle all over again to try to obtain a decent standard of living?
I remember being told in college to major in "Leisure Studies" because in the future because people would have lots of free time. Economic advances would lead to people having to work fewer hours for a higher standard of living.
I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but it sure seems to me that our corporate overlords cut all wages in half when women started to work outside the home.
And it seems to me that the top 1% still have it as good, if not better, in 2017 as they did in 1957.
What's wrong with this picture? And why do we put up with it?
2
There is one problem is that everyone one wants it "all" now. As my aunt from Italy said when she came to visit. Yes you have it all but you work very hard for it. That was in the '70's. I feel our materialism is even worse. How many hours of your life did you trade for that new I-Phone? Italians Used to buy a quality winter coat and keep it for decades. I am sure that modern Italians have been infected by materialism. We need to make choices. Is the problem self-esteem? What would you be with your I-Phine and other toys.
There are 7 billion people on the planet. Twice as many as in those halcyon 1970s you all like to hark back to.
They all need clean air, potable water, toilets, food, and they nearly all want to burn fossil fuel like we do, mine the earth for metals so they can have cars like we do, fly in airplanes like we do, have upward mobility like we used to. Do you really think it's realistic that the American standard of living not fall a bit to reach equilibrium with people round the globe who are just starting to get their fair share of the planet's pie?? We've hogged enough. It's time to realize that every successive generation is going to have more competition, not left, for basic survival items let alone luxuries like offspring, education, jobs and "quality of life." Mere "life" is where it's at; no one owes you a cushy middle-class American style.
They all need clean air, potable water, toilets, food, and they nearly all want to burn fossil fuel like we do, mine the earth for metals so they can have cars like we do, fly in airplanes like we do, have upward mobility like we used to. Do you really think it's realistic that the American standard of living not fall a bit to reach equilibrium with people round the globe who are just starting to get their fair share of the planet's pie?? We've hogged enough. It's time to realize that every successive generation is going to have more competition, not left, for basic survival items let alone luxuries like offspring, education, jobs and "quality of life." Mere "life" is where it's at; no one owes you a cushy middle-class American style.
"Want" is not as important as you think. Using that word implies too much of a detachment from duty and responsibility.
These decisions should be based on how much money needs to be earned, and if there are children who need to be cared for. Having a family means precisely that your personal wants are no longer that important.
These decisions should be based on how much money needs to be earned, and if there are children who need to be cared for. Having a family means precisely that your personal wants are no longer that important.
2
It saddens me that the worst critics of women are often other women.
Until we stop turning on each other, asking each other to be quiet, we will never get it together.
No greater example of that dynamic than the way women turned on Hillary Clinton.
Until we stop turning on each other, asking each other to be quiet, we will never get it together.
No greater example of that dynamic than the way women turned on Hillary Clinton.
2
More importantly, Do Stay-at-Home Wives Want Millennial Men?
3
Millenial here, I'm know in the minority, but I don't want a family or kids. It would be immoral to bring someone into a world that's headed for climate calamity unlike anything in human history.
2
I grew up with both of my parents working, and my mother's earnings ultimately outstripped my father's. He still thought it was OK for my mom to do all of the housework and cooking, on top of her 40-hour work week. His excuse for not pitching in to help with the household and the kids? "She's better at it than I am."
He worked hard enough outside the home, but he never lifted a finger once he walked into the house, and we kids grew up viewing him as the laziest, most selfish man we knew. He couldn't be bothered to engage with us or help our mother out. He was one of the worst role models for a man my brother could have had. Fortunately, my brother got his number fairly early on, and didn't bother trying to emulate him.
Nowadays, we kids work our tails off, both in and outside of the home. We grew up watching a lazy man take advantage of a hard-working woman, and we saw how he benefited in terms of mental and physical health, while she was frequently exhausted and unhealthy. We kids would do anything for our mom now, but neither of us much care what our dad does. His narcissism and selfishness sealed his fate in our family. A man who contributes nothing to home life beyond a paycheck is a loser in every way.
He worked hard enough outside the home, but he never lifted a finger once he walked into the house, and we kids grew up viewing him as the laziest, most selfish man we knew. He couldn't be bothered to engage with us or help our mother out. He was one of the worst role models for a man my brother could have had. Fortunately, my brother got his number fairly early on, and didn't bother trying to emulate him.
Nowadays, we kids work our tails off, both in and outside of the home. We grew up watching a lazy man take advantage of a hard-working woman, and we saw how he benefited in terms of mental and physical health, while she was frequently exhausted and unhealthy. We kids would do anything for our mom now, but neither of us much care what our dad does. His narcissism and selfishness sealed his fate in our family. A man who contributes nothing to home life beyond a paycheck is a loser in every way.
27
This assumption that men don't work in the house is misleading. Who mows lawns? Who repairs stuff when things are broken? Who does all the heavy work? Most dinners today are microwaved anyhow.
24
You think mowing takes as much time as laundry etc? Plus, every woman I know also mows. And, thank God, I don't know anybody who microwaves most meals. That would be sad and awful!
5
We never microwave dinners..
Are you doing those tasks every day after working? Didn't think so.
2
Man? Woman? Do as you wish, make your own decisions. Too many people telling other how to lead their lives. Nothing is right, nothing is wrong, what works for you, is right for you. And, if it's right for you, it isn't necessarily right for another. We're a long time dead.
28
Let’s start with the disastrous beginning, a real poke in the eye. What a disgusting title for this article riven with sexism and heterosexism, written by a woman, Stephanie Coontz, an author and professor of family studies.
Coontz seems to believe the most relevant issue is what MEN think about women leaving the workplace when the couple (subtext: heterosexual) has children--- ignoring women, and ignoring the research on the risks for women who do leave the workplace, and the benefits to families where women have identities outside the home.
FEMALE MISOGYNY is an unacknowledged problem that hasn’t entered the consciousness of most people, no less, females. Women assume they couldn’t possibly be sexist, or admit that they consciously or unconsciously police sex stereotypes that negatively affect women, or undermine women in ways they would never do to a man — based on the fact that they themselves ARE a woman. As though the mindset of sexism equates with maleness.
As a psychiatrist, I can tell you, au contraire.
Here, in this comment, I call out Ms. Coontz as a closet female misogynist.
In my personal life, I have taken to calling out female misogyny, just as I would if the person is male. No longer am I willing to cut my misogynistic “sisters” the slack, looking away when their sexism is in my face.
Because Trump is President, is the NYT dialing back the discourse on women's issues, insulting us with articles like this? Please, no more Stephanie Coontz!
Coontz seems to believe the most relevant issue is what MEN think about women leaving the workplace when the couple (subtext: heterosexual) has children--- ignoring women, and ignoring the research on the risks for women who do leave the workplace, and the benefits to families where women have identities outside the home.
FEMALE MISOGYNY is an unacknowledged problem that hasn’t entered the consciousness of most people, no less, females. Women assume they couldn’t possibly be sexist, or admit that they consciously or unconsciously police sex stereotypes that negatively affect women, or undermine women in ways they would never do to a man — based on the fact that they themselves ARE a woman. As though the mindset of sexism equates with maleness.
As a psychiatrist, I can tell you, au contraire.
Here, in this comment, I call out Ms. Coontz as a closet female misogynist.
In my personal life, I have taken to calling out female misogyny, just as I would if the person is male. No longer am I willing to cut my misogynistic “sisters” the slack, looking away when their sexism is in my face.
Because Trump is President, is the NYT dialing back the discourse on women's issues, insulting us with articles like this? Please, no more Stephanie Coontz!
65
It's worth noting that headlines are virtually never written by the person who wrote the article itself.
I have read the author's other work. You have mischaracterized her. Your point that women can reinforce sexist norms is well taken but misapplied here.
What young men think (and she reports others' studies, not her own) is relevant in the context of the movement that elected Trump. It is men who have seen diminished prospects as the economy has become more outsourced and automated. Women gained partly because they started from a lower base and partly because they adjusted better to the kinds of jobs that have grown.
The question is about how those economic changes have affected their social outlook. The answer, as reported, is that it may have influenced regressed views for young men (but not young women). Of interest is that it seems these men would be fine with equality in the home as long as there is equality in breadwinning. And family-friendly work policies that don't penalize men for being good fathers and husbands.
In the absence of such policies, many couples conclude that you can be a good parent and partner or a good employee, but not both. Some choose traditional divisions of labor to solve this. Many just suffer because they need both paychecks.
What young men think (and she reports others' studies, not her own) is relevant in the context of the movement that elected Trump. It is men who have seen diminished prospects as the economy has become more outsourced and automated. Women gained partly because they started from a lower base and partly because they adjusted better to the kinds of jobs that have grown.
The question is about how those economic changes have affected their social outlook. The answer, as reported, is that it may have influenced regressed views for young men (but not young women). Of interest is that it seems these men would be fine with equality in the home as long as there is equality in breadwinning. And family-friendly work policies that don't penalize men for being good fathers and husbands.
In the absence of such policies, many couples conclude that you can be a good parent and partner or a good employee, but not both. Some choose traditional divisions of labor to solve this. Many just suffer because they need both paychecks.
3
Agreed. I find it interesting that she believes the future of gender equality hinges on what these young men think. The girls' opinions are clearly chopped liver. Anyway, a family of four or five living off one income? Try it. These boy's opinions will change real quick!
3
For ( especially) women: the stay at home route can be great. BUT, please be VERY careful. Your spouse may have a great, stable job, but things can change in an instant. Job loss or even death. However, the greatest danger is the out-of-the-blue divorce. You must keep your job skills and work history skills up to date and relevant. I have several friends and co-workers that were blindsided, both emotionally and Financially. There's also your retirement to strongly consider. Seriously think about YOUR future.
64
Couldn't agree more. It may not be easy to re-enter the workforce.
2
I work with low income legal clients. I see this every day. The man convinces the woman to stay at home and let him handle the economic issues. When he decides to leave, he holds all the economic cards and all the assets.
Excellent post. Add loss of access to affordable healthcare in the event of death of primary insured.
3
The headline of this article is sexist and ridiculous. What do we only care about what MEN want? Please -- it's time to wake up and grow up!
32
What an insanely sexist slant. Who cares what millennial men want women to be? What do millennial WOMEN choose...and why? It is outrageous and frankly disgusting that you look at this through the lens of what men want from 'their' women.
34
Thanks! It's hard to believe a woman wrote this article and I am assuming the title...but a woman did.
I am heartened to read all the people commenting on how strange this article's premise is.
I am heartened to read all the people commenting on how strange this article's premise is.
1
This is ( especially ) for women. Be VERY careful. Perhaps you have a great marriage, with a husband earning a good income, at a steady job. That can, and does, change in an instant. Not only job loss or even death of a spouse, but an out of the blue DIVORCE. Keep up your skills and job history, you may need them. Seriously.
23
I knew I always wanted my wife to make the decision for herself. Funny enough, I always assumed that decision would be to keep working. But when I met my wife and we got married, my wife wanted to manage the household and is planning on taking care of the kids at home. It was actually really hard for me at first and was the source of a lot of arguments--it meant I had to control my spending and materialistic habits so we could develop a financially safe one-income household. It also meant sacrificing a lot of career ambitions that were too risky (we live in the Silicon Valley area). After walking through that growth exercise, we are both very happy with the lives we've chosen and wouldn't want it any other way (for us and who we are). Though it looks like a more "traditional" route by topology, it's really not. We have a much more equal and loving decision process where we both submit to each other and support one another out of love. The control and power dynamics of the past are despised.
25
It is always best when a parent can stay home to look after the children, at least until the youngest gets to K-12 education.
15
Blue is always the best color.
3
I had a different background: both of my parents worked in their small business. All the women in my mother's extended family were involved in business. So after 20 years of being a stay at home mom, my divorce forced me to become a working mother. While the marriage breakup was not the best thing to endure for my children or myself, I was a role model for my daughter. She became a career professional and has worked to this day even after having had two children of her own. And my sons realize how important a partnership is in the home and outside. There is no reason for children to not respect their stay at home mothers. Managing the home is every bit as challenging as any job, and I say this after having been in support as well as leadership positions.I hope that the millennial will not contribute to the backsliding of equality in the workplace and at home.
18
I think the real question is "Do Millennial Women Want to Be Stay-At-Home Wives?"
41
Do millennial women want stay-at-home husbands? I know I sure would.
35
Hey, non-millennial women love that too! It's so great for any woman who works outside her home to not have to work a second shift when she comes home. Whether that work is done by a husband, spouse, or partner is not as relevant as the pure appreciation of having someone else do the kid pick up and make dinner. Unfortunately, these models of family life aren't always intentional and are driven by privilege and earning potential.
Maybe these millennials are reacting to growing up in a two-career household, and they don't want to raise a family where both parents are stressed out and stretched thin all the time.
36
except it was the guy who was defining it that way. See how easy it is to assimen that is the way the alllll feel if the guy does. Not "they"..."he"
This is insane. Why is the decision to stay at home a retreat from gender equality? This op-ed is largely survey based. Should people be ridiculed (and accused of stifling the gender revolution) for expressing their genuine preferences? Are we all supposed to think a particular way about how we live our lives, and what is "progress" on the gender front? Is there only one definition of "gender equality", which means women working outside the home?
25
I suppose you missed the point that it was the millenial male defining what the millenial woman should do...because that is what he wants.
I am an educator at the university level. I have a different take on these numbers. Many of my students--male and female alike--feel that children have deserved better than being born just to be ditched in daycare just because both parents work at their careers.
Many of these students also have started defining quality of life much differently than our generation. Being able to spend time with their children and having a relaxing loving home is much more important than having a lot of money.
Maybe this survey asked the wrong questions?
Many of these students also have started defining quality of life much differently than our generation. Being able to spend time with their children and having a relaxing loving home is much more important than having a lot of money.
Maybe this survey asked the wrong questions?
50
I suspect you are correct in your question, "Maybe this survey asked the wrong questions".
I also suspect most surveys ask the wrong questions, questions that are carefully selected to give the desired outcomes.
As the professor said on the first day of Statistics class, "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics. We are here to study the third kind of lie."
I also suspect most surveys ask the wrong questions, questions that are carefully selected to give the desired outcomes.
As the professor said on the first day of Statistics class, "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics. We are here to study the third kind of lie."
I haven't delved into all the comments,but has anyone else noted the connection to Judy Brady's 1971 essay, "I Want a Wife." It ends by asking "Who wouldn't want a wife?"
46 years. A lifetime and more. And here we are.
46 years. A lifetime and more. And here we are.
23
Wow, what I am seeing among younger relatives and friends in those age groups is a strong move to stay at home dads, not moms. While most of the young families I know are two-career families, in the majority of those with a stay at home parent, the person at home is the dad. Usually, it seems that the wife has better career prospects, so they just slide into that pattern.
22
Why do you gloss over the fact that the "wife has better career prospects"?
You are correct, but the "why" of that phenomenon is rarely acknowledged. That is because doing so is acknowledging how biased our culture/society, businesses, government, media and institutions have become in favor of women over men, girls over boys.
You are correct, but the "why" of that phenomenon is rarely acknowledged. That is because doing so is acknowledging how biased our culture/society, businesses, government, media and institutions have become in favor of women over men, girls over boys.
I know women who stay at home, they all have the back ground and education to support themselves. They are better mothers and partners with this choice. I also know women who have chosen to go back to work. They are better mothers and partners with this choice.
We need family friendly policies, to support both choices. Men should also have this choice if it is best for them, their children and partners.
The rest of us should butt out.
We need family friendly policies, to support both choices. Men should also have this choice if it is best for them, their children and partners.
The rest of us should butt out.
36
What does a family contribute to an employer that justifies allowing it to impact the business? It is absurd to expect most businesses to pay one employee enough to support anyone but him or herself.
1
The results of ignoring and disrespecting the value of fathers in the home have been consistently bad. Higher teen pregnancy, lower grades, more dropouts more delinquency etc.
Valuing fathers is great, but the devaluing of families and the bosses increased drive for higher production and lower wages means those in home dad's will have to work the American normal of 50 hours per week, so either and or both of the parents will not be able to be with the kids and the home.
Until we parents rise up and insist that our wages rise along with our productivity, just as it was during all of America's Great and Golden Years, we will see problems with our families.
If the Power Brokers want traditional famlies and traditional gender roles then they must provide the means to have them, and with their obsession with the quarterly report and their second and third houses that just ain't happening.
Valuing fathers is great, but the devaluing of families and the bosses increased drive for higher production and lower wages means those in home dad's will have to work the American normal of 50 hours per week, so either and or both of the parents will not be able to be with the kids and the home.
Until we parents rise up and insist that our wages rise along with our productivity, just as it was during all of America's Great and Golden Years, we will see problems with our families.
If the Power Brokers want traditional famlies and traditional gender roles then they must provide the means to have them, and with their obsession with the quarterly report and their second and third houses that just ain't happening.
6
When will people whose jobs require that kind if commitment accept that their jobs are incompatible with having a family? I, for one, am quite tired of the growing sense if entitlement that is found in this country.
There is no support for children of working parents. Nursery school in many, many places costs more than college. (That is not an exaggeration.) The brunt of housework still falls on women, even in households with dads who pitch in. Corporations are mostly against remote work, which I have done for a woman-owned company, and it was INCREDIBLY freeing because I didn't spend time commuting and could get all those minor things out of the way before work started. The simple fact is that although politicians position themselves as pro-family and sometimes "pro-life" in the United States, this is a developed country that is anything but. You can cannot be against abortion, but then be okay with a $2500/month nursery school.
15
Could it be that since the middle class is shrinking, those in the upper classes earn enough money to support single earner families? With the difficulties of finding adequate daycare and the unequal balance of responsibilities in the home, single earner families would be less stressful. Add to that the history of men being the breadwinners, and movies, books and other cultural influences that portray men as macho and the results can be understood. But it is a shame when, in some cases, the man would be a better caregiver and the woman would prefer to work, but self perceptions won't allow it.
4
You danced around the fact that the survey found that women actually want to spend more time with their family and raising their children rather than working.
Raising children was viewed as a highly valued endeavor.
Doesn't fit your narrative of equality though.
Raising children was viewed as a highly valued endeavor.
Doesn't fit your narrative of equality though.
26
I'm a 42 year old Gen X woman. After watching both my mom and older sister struggle with exhaustion raising young children while working full-time and trying to keep up with everything (because let's face it- women still do most of the childcare, housework, cooking etc.) I am so thankful to be in a position where I can work part-time to just keep my foot in the health care position I trained for. Working full-time and keeping up with everything else is like being on a treadmill you can't get off of- you are never done. And, it's stressful for men too. Personally I think it's great for marriages to have one parent who is able to stay home or work only a couple days a week. Much less stressful existence.
25
As civilization matures their social life also settles down . Ancient fully developed civilizations ( culturally not necessarily commercially ),with more than 5000 years of recorded history like those of India and China welcome the idea that women should better mind the home and children than go out , work and earn for self and her family. Its better that that role is left to the men f the house for healthier and happier family relationships , healthier growth of children and better peaceful and serene domestic environments . The economy development might be slower but steadier and well rooted in family values and not market profiteering values. Its nice to see that western commercially oriented civilizations are realizing that now and the current youngsters are also arriving at the same conclusions that sustains steady and deep rooted dimensionally different culture and values of life more suitable for bringing up growing up children. Only lets hope that we are not too late in realizing human values involved in life than just commercial values brought about by machines of accelerated production of goods and services , for whom ? not for the benefit of society at large but for a handful of rich men helping them to get richer with no proportional benefit to the common person man , woman or child . "Progress" does not mean making more profits for a few but increasing the happiness and health and peace of mind of the majority .
6
We do not have to live this way. Buying stuff!!!! Working parents and all of us are made to believe that having stuff is the goal. So we work ourselves into the ground, so we can have the big car and home. If we don't start living simpler lives none of this will be an option. Did you see the story about African countries banning plastic bags and the huge piles of them? It all connects. I work part-time in the retail trade (I am 64 years old) the plastic bags you take your groceries home in is the tip of the iceberg. Much of the product we sell and all most all the the clothes come wrapped individually in plastic. This obsession has to stop and we need to figure out how to live without buying so much stuff. Making our own, which is no longer seen as a valuable contribution is the problem. All work is worthy and the rest of the world wants our lifestyle!!?? It is not sustainable and change begins at home. And I too work to help pay for my ACA.
14
1. Corporations tend to respect one thing: Profit. Human life, society, family and the environment, much less so in many cases. Corporation management and American business culture strongly affects the general culture of the nation: "Schools should be run like a business," for example. "Government should be run like a business," for another. The same thing with the Fourth Estate. Time and again Americans are seeing that this isn't, really, a good paradigm. But far too many of them ignore the problem, or feel powerless to try to change it.
2. Statistics and studies can and are used to suggest or even "prove" a particular point of view. And then when cognitive dissonance becomes manifest it is too often ignored.
3. Every human being has a bias. We're hard-wired for it and it seems to be inescapable.
4. In the case of studies, almost always, "one size does not fit all."
Until more business and corporate leaders and political leaders, the people who have the strongest influence over which direction our nation takes, until all of them decide that there are higher values than money that we should embrace and strive for, we will continue to maintain the status quo, and many families will suffer. Our nation will suffer. The world will suffer. And we will not achieve the promise inherent in our potential.
2. Statistics and studies can and are used to suggest or even "prove" a particular point of view. And then when cognitive dissonance becomes manifest it is too often ignored.
3. Every human being has a bias. We're hard-wired for it and it seems to be inescapable.
4. In the case of studies, almost always, "one size does not fit all."
Until more business and corporate leaders and political leaders, the people who have the strongest influence over which direction our nation takes, until all of them decide that there are higher values than money that we should embrace and strive for, we will continue to maintain the status quo, and many families will suffer. Our nation will suffer. The world will suffer. And we will not achieve the promise inherent in our potential.
4
I am a stay at home mother. I never imagined that I would be but I am happy that I am. My mom passed away from Alzheimer's just over a year ago and I, along with my own father, became her primary caretaker in her last agonizing years. To facilitate this I left my job, moved with my husband from our lives on the east coast to be closer to my parents in the Midwest. To be sure, it was difficult financially for us but we made the decision with no regrets. While caring for my mom I gave birth to my first son and have since stayed home while working part-time when my husband could care for him. We have since endured my mother's passing, job loss, a move to a new city for a great job opportunity and live no where near any family and have no other "help".
Caring for my mom and losing her the way that we did gave me and my husband a perspective on life that we never would have had otherwise. Life means different things for different people but for me and my husband it means family--taking care of family, nurturing each other and putting that above all else. We are frugal but we live comfortably enough. Time outweighs the promise of more things.
I am not ruling out going back to work if the right opportunity arises that provides the balance that is right for our family. My husband fully supports that. He is a fully involved father and husband on all levels and our relationship is stronger because of the importance we have placed on family in our life choices.
Caring for my mom and losing her the way that we did gave me and my husband a perspective on life that we never would have had otherwise. Life means different things for different people but for me and my husband it means family--taking care of family, nurturing each other and putting that above all else. We are frugal but we live comfortably enough. Time outweighs the promise of more things.
I am not ruling out going back to work if the right opportunity arises that provides the balance that is right for our family. My husband fully supports that. He is a fully involved father and husband on all levels and our relationship is stronger because of the importance we have placed on family in our life choices.
21
My wife altered her life when we had kids. She was a dual major in college and graduated with honors. She decided that despite being trained specifically as an educator that she would start her own day care out of our home. She wanted to be with our children and help raise them, not sacrificing her time and money for someone else to do so. She has had a successful business for 17 years and our children and family have greatly benefitted from her "staying at home".
It does present a paradox. She sees first hand the needs that children have for their parents-often specifically for their mothers. The lack of parental inter action yields what we call "the day care effect". Parents who fail to parent, to make life easier, and in the process set up horrible habits and interactions with their children that we know, because we have seen many parents and children come through the day care, will continue for years.
I say all of this because it sets up a kind of paradox. Yes, women should be able to have a career if they want to but it is usually at the expense of a healthy relationship with their kids. This unhealthy relationship only hurts the children throughout their lives.
Our perception is less about "traditional" or "patriarchal roles" and more about what is best for children. Perhaps one parent should be able to stay at home and rear the children.
It does present a paradox. She sees first hand the needs that children have for their parents-often specifically for their mothers. The lack of parental inter action yields what we call "the day care effect". Parents who fail to parent, to make life easier, and in the process set up horrible habits and interactions with their children that we know, because we have seen many parents and children come through the day care, will continue for years.
I say all of this because it sets up a kind of paradox. Yes, women should be able to have a career if they want to but it is usually at the expense of a healthy relationship with their kids. This unhealthy relationship only hurts the children throughout their lives.
Our perception is less about "traditional" or "patriarchal roles" and more about what is best for children. Perhaps one parent should be able to stay at home and rear the children.
20
The arc of history bent toward justice. And now it's bouncing back. Thanks, Obama!
2
The mere title of this article offends me.
18
I think men and women both need to wake up. This disaster of a world we live in, with its wars, global warming, inequities, and trump was created by men being in charge and men thinking that they have the superior intellect (i believe Paul Ryan has just proved this farce). Women need to take charge and stop letting men set the narrative that they are better at running this world and the woman’s place is in the home. Men are not the superior gender, and they are holding on by a thread, simply through the sheer force of history. It is only a matter of time before women turn this world upside down, and hopefully before it is not too late for our kids. For our kids’ sake, we need women in the workforce, in government, not at home.
10
I think the Times did an article a couple years ago about how French women face horrible sexism, especially from chauvinistic husbands.
1
Maybe Christine is not the only one with a chip on the shoulder lol.
...does the name Ada Lovelace mean anything to you? If you're using a computer, it should. Leisure time actually decreased considerably after the (male-led) industrial revolution, but both men and women worked in factories--and agitated together for labor laws. It took male doctors quite a long time to figure out that maybe they should wash their (literally) bloody hands in between tending to deliveries, a problem midwives had a lot less frequently, so I'm not so sure women, who died (and in some places still do) in huge numbers from childbed fever for centuries ought to thank men for our extended lifespan. Having fewer children due to family planning sure helps, too.
I do work in a female-dominated environment, and it's actually lovely; we get things done in meetings rather than jockeying for position with unnecessary ego-boosting tangents.
You perhaps ought to take a history class-- and a sociology class, you can understand how perhaps the systematic denial of education to women for centuries contributes to the claims you're making. I realize systematic thinking is quite difficult, but I think you can probably manage with a little instruction.
Now that we have half a chance, we're outnumbering you in advanced degrees, and the thanks we get are lower wages and having to clean up after you when we get home from work. Luckily for me, my partner knows my career is equally as important as hers, and she and I are quite good at dividing up housework fairly.
I do work in a female-dominated environment, and it's actually lovely; we get things done in meetings rather than jockeying for position with unnecessary ego-boosting tangents.
You perhaps ought to take a history class-- and a sociology class, you can understand how perhaps the systematic denial of education to women for centuries contributes to the claims you're making. I realize systematic thinking is quite difficult, but I think you can probably manage with a little instruction.
Now that we have half a chance, we're outnumbering you in advanced degrees, and the thanks we get are lower wages and having to clean up after you when we get home from work. Luckily for me, my partner knows my career is equally as important as hers, and she and I are quite good at dividing up housework fairly.
I know a two-attorney family in LA who have a young Chinese 'wife'. Yes, that's what they call her. She does everything a wife would do, except for sex.
The threesome is quite happy with their 4 kids.
The threesome is quite happy with their 4 kids.
7
Ah the mommy wars again. Here's my take (disclosure - gen Xer). If you (either spouse) is going to stay at home for a number of years while your career skills get stale, you better be sure that your relationship and your financial picture are rock solid. Given the US economic model, you are putting your family's future at risk. Meaning, if your marriage were to fail or the earning spouse to die or some other unexpected financial issue happen (special needs child, taking care of extended family member), you will be in a horrible situation. I don't advocate that you must give all to your career. But think long and hard about how to keep gaps from occurring on your resume. Make sure you keep any licenses up to date. And, perhaps, the volunteering should take place within your professional field. You really don't want to find yourself without options. I find the flip - we moms can figure it all out when we want to go back to work - especially worrisome. As a mom who kept her hand in through part time work and watched what happened to those who left completely for a long time...no, it won't be that easy for you to get back in. You will not just be able to pick up where you left off. You will be lucky to find entry level work. Just don't be naive is all I'm saying.
41
With all the baby-boomers retiring we will have many job openings for decades or they can start their own business. I was challenged every day by my children and I worked had and grew creatively. If a business does not want me, it is their loss. I will start my own which I think many millennials want to do.
What kind of security have these corporations given us anyway?
What kind of security have these corporations given us anyway?
Not a fair group to interview. Wait until they are older and find that a duel income is necessary for the 'American dream'.
13
I notice that it was a man who wrote the research report and also concluded what became the lead. Might it not be that women choose men who together decide that one of them wants to stay home and raise the children? The idea that it is the man who chooses a stay-at-home wife seems a bit misogynistic to me. When reading research thoroughly I have often been amazed at the conclusions that are made out of unsubstantiated theory even though the data does not call for the generalizations that are concluded.
9
Read, "The Nordic Theory of Everything, In Search of a Better Life," by Anu PartanenIt's. She is a Finnish woman who came to America and married an American. She compares the lives of American families to those in the Nordic countries and makes it clear that the family friendly policies of the Nordic countries, ranging from medical care, child care, family leave, vacation leave to elder care contribute immensely to equality and happiness of everyone.
29
How many of the Fortune 500 are non-American corporations? How many of the world's 25 richest aren't in the US?
Are these the same Nordic countries with low birth rates and slowly dying societies?
Please. She wasn't that "qualified"- no fire, no charisma, just PR and marketing. The lunatic looked real in comparison. Hillary Clinton's loss has nothing to do with the progress of feminism, unless you consider that simply being a woman was no longer enough.
11
Please don't attempt to revise history. The GOP figured out in 1993 that she was one of the most hardworking and brightest lights in the democratic pantheon. They set about to destroy her knowing the high likelihood that she would be the first woman to have a real chance at running for president.
That she wasn't a "cult of personality" figure should have been considered a plus not a minus. And, there is the evidence that whenever she ran for a position she was much less popular than when she actually achieved the position. So voters didn't like that she wanted to be powerful and in charge. Once she was in charge, they liked her performance as a senator and as Secretary of State.
That she wasn't a "cult of personality" figure should have been considered a plus not a minus. And, there is the evidence that whenever she ran for a position she was much less popular than when she actually achieved the position. So voters didn't like that she wanted to be powerful and in charge. Once she was in charge, they liked her performance as a senator and as Secretary of State.
18
The GOP did not investigate Hilary for 30 years or more, they persecuted her. They have a hard time with brilliant, competent women.
We should all hope our daughters get a great education and are brilliant and competent at whatever THEY choose to do.
We should all hope our daughters get a great education and are brilliant and competent at whatever THEY choose to do.
1
Jeez, people can barely scrape by with two people working two jobs each, and automation is making that worse. Something's going to give in this society, and going back to ward and june cleaver is not the half of it.
5
Perhaps they grew up in a family where both parents worked, or even a family with only one parent, and want something different for their kids.
PS Everyone wants a wife
PS Everyone wants a wife
17
Indeed, everyone wants a wife. Houses run better with one person at home, male or female... or help. But let's talk reality, most families would fail to run at all on just one income.
6
Could it be that millenials have bad memories from their own childhood of being in incessant day-care and being latch-key kids? Not having the nuturing attention of their working parents? And so they want better for their children.
17
Better? IF only there was a direct correlation between stay-at-home mom and a better raised child/adult.
I was a latchkey kid when no one was calling it that, it taught me independence, responsibility, how to cook and take care of my needs. Didnt need to wait for mommy to do my laundry, learned that I control things in my life, and made me appreciate the hard-work of adults. So when it was my time, I got-it, that being an adult meant putting down childish things and habits, and meeting the world on its terms.
Lets also remember that Millennals were the most over-cared for, over parented (whats the term helicoptering?) generation. They were chauffeured everywhere, had to have play-dates, and were taught that they could buy their personality and "look"off the shelf.
Better...so whats so much better about them so far?
I was a latchkey kid when no one was calling it that, it taught me independence, responsibility, how to cook and take care of my needs. Didnt need to wait for mommy to do my laundry, learned that I control things in my life, and made me appreciate the hard-work of adults. So when it was my time, I got-it, that being an adult meant putting down childish things and habits, and meeting the world on its terms.
Lets also remember that Millennals were the most over-cared for, over parented (whats the term helicoptering?) generation. They were chauffeured everywhere, had to have play-dates, and were taught that they could buy their personality and "look"off the shelf.
Better...so whats so much better about them so far?
9
How about men and women, or women and men, or men and men, or women and women who choose to partner choose whatever work / home arrangement suits them in their own arrangement, regardless of articles based on, at best, very questionable statistics.
12
A working woman has two big jobs - running the household/ raising a family AND making money! The social experiment of the last 40 years that dreamed of men equally sharing domestic duties never worked out. Period.
Women should be fighting for financial compensation for the work they perform at home. Now they are penalized for taking care of kids, their parents and their spouses and asked all the time "when they will return to work ? " Household managers, private chefs, nannys can earn 70-100k a year ( where I live). It's work that valued - it's the same work that women have been doing for years as wives and mothers for "free".
Women should be fighting for financial compensation for the work they perform at home. Now they are penalized for taking care of kids, their parents and their spouses and asked all the time "when they will return to work ? " Household managers, private chefs, nannys can earn 70-100k a year ( where I live). It's work that valued - it's the same work that women have been doing for years as wives and mothers for "free".
15
Why do women choose to mate with men who won't be equal partners?! No woman in my family ever would, that's for sure.
If you settle for a schlub who won't do his share, that's your problem.
If you settle for a schlub who won't do his share, that's your problem.
3
With HR departments being majority women, HR policies increasingly favor women. Longer maternity leave than paternity leave if at all, men put in longer hours at work, lesser holidays. If child care is impacting career, we have to make rational choices. There should be no burden for employees who need to put in extra effort for colleagues who have kids
5
I don't blame men at all. My husband was a stayed at home with our two kids for a year and it was awesome. I came home from work to a clean house, hot dinner, laundry washed, folded & put away. I didn't have to bother worrying about the details of household & family management after a long hard day at work.
But it isn't possible for many, for a variety of reasons. Some women want to work, many are under economic pressure to do so, and others (like me) fear being in a vulnerable position if we lose our bread winning partner.
Parents should train their sons as well as daughters in household management and fathers should lead by example on being proactive in taking on household tasks.
It is hard work to change the mindset, even for men who think they are feminist. My husband went back to school, leaving me to be primary breadwinner and household manager for five years. When he finished he had the gall to think that he was doing well by doing 25% of the household/child-tending duties because he was doing more than most men. He lived to tell the tale-just barely- but he got an earful. And I've been much more proactive in reminding him that managing this family is an equal responsibility.
But it isn't possible for many, for a variety of reasons. Some women want to work, many are under economic pressure to do so, and others (like me) fear being in a vulnerable position if we lose our bread winning partner.
Parents should train their sons as well as daughters in household management and fathers should lead by example on being proactive in taking on household tasks.
It is hard work to change the mindset, even for men who think they are feminist. My husband went back to school, leaving me to be primary breadwinner and household manager for five years. When he finished he had the gall to think that he was doing well by doing 25% of the household/child-tending duties because he was doing more than most men. He lived to tell the tale-just barely- but he got an earful. And I've been much more proactive in reminding him that managing this family is an equal responsibility.
12
The problem is that women entering the workforce has allowed employers to halve everyone's salary. Profits double while we all have to work harder. We should not have allowed this to happen. Companies can go back to 50s era profits and families should be able to work less - either or both parents.
5
You have cause and effect backward.
7
Yeah exactly. Globalization and automation are eating away at wages, not feminism.
1
Many comments seem to object to the finding, which is like objecting to the weather. But the explanation proffered by the authors seems overly complex and tainted by sociological opinions. It seems more likely to me that these youngsters simply miss being mothered and having someone to take care of them.
4
More victimhood claptrap. Women under 30 make more than men under 30, are getting college degrees at a much higher rate, are a majority of medical and law students. Funny thing is that they also want a family and there is no free lunch. Having a husband who can take on the daunting responsibility of being primary breadwinner is often the preferred route as it allows a parent to focus on the children- a paramount responsibility, not a burden or backward movement for a woman.
9
So interesting reading all the comments from two-parent families. Makes it sound like life is so impossible to manage. If both work, I'm hearing how much the kids suffer. If one doesn't work, I'm hearing how economics can be an issue, unless the other parent works an ungodly number of hours - which then leaves the family somewhat on their own except for mom.
Yes. I realize this is an over simplification of the comments.
But curiously single parents seem to manage this all quite often. That is, manage homelife & raise successful kids while the (only) parent is off working during the day. I did it. Had friends do it. Our kids are happy and successful. Its entirely achievable to manage a home & raise happy kids while parents work jobs outside of the home.
So I don't understand a lot of the concerns from either side of this debate from what sound like educated, middle class dual parent families.
Families can benefit from having two working parents without hurting the kids. And they can benefit, differently, from having one working parent. Its about choices. Do you want more money or more time?
I'm just surprised that it is still commonly EXPECTED by many of both genders that the female will stay at home if there is an option. Not the male.
That seems to say a lot about American culture and its view of women. But thats a bigger discussion. :)
Yes. I realize this is an over simplification of the comments.
But curiously single parents seem to manage this all quite often. That is, manage homelife & raise successful kids while the (only) parent is off working during the day. I did it. Had friends do it. Our kids are happy and successful. Its entirely achievable to manage a home & raise happy kids while parents work jobs outside of the home.
So I don't understand a lot of the concerns from either side of this debate from what sound like educated, middle class dual parent families.
Families can benefit from having two working parents without hurting the kids. And they can benefit, differently, from having one working parent. Its about choices. Do you want more money or more time?
I'm just surprised that it is still commonly EXPECTED by many of both genders that the female will stay at home if there is an option. Not the male.
That seems to say a lot about American culture and its view of women. But thats a bigger discussion. :)
7
Right...why do we hear so much less whining from single parents? Especially those in the middle to lower incomes. I know several single moms and they never complain - outside of the normal gripes - but boy do they work hard.
While all the middle-upper income double-parents whine about how hard it is to be parents. Of all the sacrifices they make for their rug-rats. How they haven't had a quiet moment in ages...
FYI; dont have kids, if you want quiet time! Get a cat!
While all the middle-upper income double-parents whine about how hard it is to be parents. Of all the sacrifices they make for their rug-rats. How they haven't had a quiet moment in ages...
FYI; dont have kids, if you want quiet time! Get a cat!
6
"27 percent of males aged 14 to 24 felt women's gains had come at the expense of men." Another issue is that our politics have become overtly zero sum. Thus, politicians tell us that, with every legislative enactment there are winners and losers. Why aren't they telling us their legislation is good for the country? If Congress, for example, asks billionaires to pay their fair share of taxes, does that make the billionaires losers? We won't get the policies the author proposes unless and until we stop with the zero sum attitude.
5
Of course women's gains have come at the expense of men. Why is that a surprise to millennial men? Was their assumption the same as their grandfathers: that all white men would be indefinitely in positions of power?
There is this absurd meme that things like affirmative action and gender equality in the workplace result in "the promotion and advancement of people who may not be qualified." Yeah, because when the game was rigged for white men, all of the folks who advanced were so qualified.
Competition is good. Women are winning the competition. In the words of my immigrant, baby boomer father, let me say this to millennial men: "man up."
There is this absurd meme that things like affirmative action and gender equality in the workplace result in "the promotion and advancement of people who may not be qualified." Yeah, because when the game was rigged for white men, all of the folks who advanced were so qualified.
Competition is good. Women are winning the competition. In the words of my immigrant, baby boomer father, let me say this to millennial men: "man up."
12
This kind of smug gloating is the type of behavior that fuels a backlash. The type of backlash that results in a goofball in the oval office. Talk about advancement of people who may not be qualified.
2
I chose to quit working and stay at home with my two boys because I wanted to be the person who cared for them. This was a mutual decision made with my then-husband which I have never regretted. No repression or retro ideas about family structure involved. I support and understand that other parents (moms and dads) make different choices, or have fewer options for economic or other reasons.
What bothers me about articles like this is the assumption that two parents working and sharing equally in childcare and household chores is the most desirable state of things, and that government policy should support this. I think government policy should be neutral about the choices that parents make. Rather than subsidizing childcare directly or indirectly via the tax code, why not allow parents to use tax credits to pay for childcare for those who choose to work and replace income for those who would prefer to sta home with their children? I met many women during my years outside the workforce who wanted to stay home with their kids but could not afford to. A modest amount of financial support would have enabled many of them to do so, especially as their net income after paying childcare expenses was not much.
What bothers me about articles like this is the assumption that two parents working and sharing equally in childcare and household chores is the most desirable state of things, and that government policy should support this. I think government policy should be neutral about the choices that parents make. Rather than subsidizing childcare directly or indirectly via the tax code, why not allow parents to use tax credits to pay for childcare for those who choose to work and replace income for those who would prefer to sta home with their children? I met many women during my years outside the workforce who wanted to stay home with their kids but could not afford to. A modest amount of financial support would have enabled many of them to do so, especially as their net income after paying childcare expenses was not much.
11
Because I don't have kids and already pay property taxes for people's kids to go to school. I don't mind that, but I'll be darned if I'll pay more so somebody can not work.
Isn't "millenmial men" a contradiction in terms?
Are you talking about those man-bunned, inked, bearded, groovy-clothed kids who want to tell me how awesome "old school" music - you know - the 80s - is?
Do you mean those dudes who spend 14 hours in front of a computer screen but don't know how to re-hang a door or fix a simple dinner for themselves and another human being?
Are you referring to those who think WW2 was fought in Vietnam in the 60s?
Oh.
Are you talking about those man-bunned, inked, bearded, groovy-clothed kids who want to tell me how awesome "old school" music - you know - the 80s - is?
Do you mean those dudes who spend 14 hours in front of a computer screen but don't know how to re-hang a door or fix a simple dinner for themselves and another human being?
Are you referring to those who think WW2 was fought in Vietnam in the 60s?
Oh.
15
This is certainly stereotyping millennials. My son is 32 years old (no tattoos), works a responsible job, cooks all the time, and is well versed in history. Meeting one doesn't mean you've met them all.
7
Hey NYT and Stephanie Coontz, what a sexist and gender-biased piece, starting with a headline referring to men and wives. Wow, I expect much more from you. What about - what do the women want?
Sincerely,
Disappointed in Gender-Biased Culture Permeating Even The NYT
Sincerely,
Disappointed in Gender-Biased Culture Permeating Even The NYT
14
This article is total garbage and offensive to those with intelligence.
20
Really, it's very strange to read this in the NYT
Women are rapidly becoming the majority at med school, veterinary school, even law school. More women are graduating from college than men.
It is high time that millennials look at their relative earning power, and realize that it makes far more sense for fathers to stay home, and let the stronger wage earner bring home the money. High time for Mom to be the one coming home to a clean warm house, happy bathed kids, freshly mown lawn, and a hot home-cooked dinner.
Our society needs to re-define 'homemaker' to the gender of less ability, and let the gender of greater intellectual ability be the 'breadwinner'.
After all, it really doesn't take THAT much skill to tend house and kids.
Oh gee, you don't like that idea, guys?
And, why exactly not?
Perhaps this is the reason for these new survey results?
And the reason we have a room of old white men in DC making decisions on women's health?
Kinda uncomfortable telling your attorney-at-law wife to stay home scrubbing the bathroom when you are an un-employed coal miner, huh?
It is high time that millennials look at their relative earning power, and realize that it makes far more sense for fathers to stay home, and let the stronger wage earner bring home the money. High time for Mom to be the one coming home to a clean warm house, happy bathed kids, freshly mown lawn, and a hot home-cooked dinner.
Our society needs to re-define 'homemaker' to the gender of less ability, and let the gender of greater intellectual ability be the 'breadwinner'.
After all, it really doesn't take THAT much skill to tend house and kids.
Oh gee, you don't like that idea, guys?
And, why exactly not?
Perhaps this is the reason for these new survey results?
And the reason we have a room of old white men in DC making decisions on women's health?
Kinda uncomfortable telling your attorney-at-law wife to stay home scrubbing the bathroom when you are an un-employed coal miner, huh?
37
Pretty strange world you see from your organic farm!! And you seem to make some strange assumptions from general trends. Yes, many women go through med school, but most come out as nurses, or GPs. The high paying specializations still attract men, overwhelmingly. Same for Law school: plenty go for family law, few to corporate, where the money is. They tend to flock to fields where competition is least fierce, and which yield lower income.
I don't know where the "gender of less ability", and "gender of greater intellectual ability" come from, but if you're referring to the ability to conquer the highest-paying field, and the intellectual ability to do so, think again, it's men you're referring to.
Your pleasantry about an attorney-at-law wife married to a coal miner doesn't exist, and you should know that. Men hardly ever marry up; that's typically a woman's move.
I don't know where the "gender of less ability", and "gender of greater intellectual ability" come from, but if you're referring to the ability to conquer the highest-paying field, and the intellectual ability to do so, think again, it's men you're referring to.
Your pleasantry about an attorney-at-law wife married to a coal miner doesn't exist, and you should know that. Men hardly ever marry up; that's typically a woman's move.
8
Why isn't the title of this piece "Do Women Want Stay-At-Home Husband"? As long as women like the author post this claptrap, men will feel that they have the right to pressure their usually-brighter-than-their-husbands wives to stay at home with the babies. In fact, they will feel that the primary job of women IS to stay at home and raise babies. As the mother of a Millennial and knowing many millennial men and women, I don't know who you interviewed, but they must not even have been high school graduates if they want to return to the 1950s status quo. The ones that I know are happy to have intelligent, ambitious working wives and husbands.
25
No mystery here. I am a straight, woman physician who raised 4 children with my loving husband who also worked - and both of us would have liked to have a stay at home wife, however neither of us wanted to do it. It would have made things easier! Instead we hired house cleaners and part time babysitters for before and after school times. Who wouldn't want someone at home anchoring the family?
40
I fell in love with my high school sweetheart and since then wanted to be a stay at home mom. I love kids, but I also see now that I partly based my decision on the fact that I had some moderate health problems and learning disabilities (I had failed a grade in primary school) and so I didn't think I would be able to be competitive in the job market.
I've stayed home for the past fourteen years (after six years ironically enough in a highly competitive IT job). I loved being home when the kids were babies. I hated it when they both had learning disabilities and one had health problems -- but they never needed me more. I feel proud and happy now.
I see so many criticisms of stay at home parenting here -- that it's boring, unaffordable and risky. I found it less boring than paid work; we made it work as young people in an urban area; and as any MRA can tell you divorce is no picnic for men either. I don't know any stay at home moms who have been abandoned or experience poverty.
I'm 41 and sometimes I tell my teen daughter, as she tries to decide on courses, "just make a good marriage" (she's very beautiful but, of course, she'll do undergrad, too). I also tell both my kids that I expect a room in their houses when I'm old. Family can be so much -- so meaningful and secure -- more so than careers where you can be laid off and have no intrinsic value or dignity as a person. Being at home has also given me time to read, and write articles and a novel -- isn't that the dream?
I've stayed home for the past fourteen years (after six years ironically enough in a highly competitive IT job). I loved being home when the kids were babies. I hated it when they both had learning disabilities and one had health problems -- but they never needed me more. I feel proud and happy now.
I see so many criticisms of stay at home parenting here -- that it's boring, unaffordable and risky. I found it less boring than paid work; we made it work as young people in an urban area; and as any MRA can tell you divorce is no picnic for men either. I don't know any stay at home moms who have been abandoned or experience poverty.
I'm 41 and sometimes I tell my teen daughter, as she tries to decide on courses, "just make a good marriage" (she's very beautiful but, of course, she'll do undergrad, too). I also tell both my kids that I expect a room in their houses when I'm old. Family can be so much -- so meaningful and secure -- more so than careers where you can be laid off and have no intrinsic value or dignity as a person. Being at home has also given me time to read, and write articles and a novel -- isn't that the dream?
20
Just curious - why bother having her "do undergrad" at all if your goal is for her to marry and stay at home? College is a pretty expensive finishing school, and might give her a glimpse of things she will miss out on when she is busy cleaning and changing diapers.
11
Lucky for you that you have a husband willing to support you in your decision. Hope he feels that way in ten years. Not everyone has the financial security to stay home and read. And to tell your daughter to "just make a good marriage?" That is wrong.
7
Good for you but you're fortunate. I know several former SAH parents who ended up in relative poverty. Telling your daughter to rely on a good marriage is extraordinarily retrograde.
With marriage on the decline, someone may wish to tell them you must marry first.
We made the decision that one would stay home- my husband. But with that is a risk - if I become unempyed the years my husband spent taking care of all of us will not look well in the business sector.
No one respects the caregiver roll for its strength and beauty until they do not have it.
We made the decision that one would stay home- my husband. But with that is a risk - if I become unempyed the years my husband spent taking care of all of us will not look well in the business sector.
No one respects the caregiver roll for its strength and beauty until they do not have it.
8
My husband and I both worked full time while our children were small and that is the reason we will send them to college loan free and retire while young enough to still travel
So two people working is a must for autonomy and stability and to weather the chaos in life as it happens. Staying home is nice but most cannot really afford it and the price is steeper than most calculate.
So two people working is a must for autonomy and stability and to weather the chaos in life as it happens. Staying home is nice but most cannot really afford it and the price is steeper than most calculate.
11
Perhaps working in an office vs working in one's own house with one's family is not a valid definitition of "gender equality". Only Americans presume life revolves around nothing but money.
Perhaps American women have been suckered. If so, our entire society has.
Perhaps American women have been suckered. If so, our entire society has.
9
Gender equity is a better goal than gender equality. The issues are not so simple that you can say progress is made when a woman becomes President or when both father and mother work. Clearly there are inequities that need to be addressed.
3
I'm a baby boomer. I thought things would have changed more in a direct line than they have. Maybe I was expecting too much change too fast? In any case, I chose not to have children. I still ended up doing more to maintain my household than my husband but I was able to focus enough on my career to provide myself my own financial security. I retired yesterday after 40 years of continuous work and I am happy to say I attained that financial independence. We all have to make choices and we all live in the real world, not the world we would necessary want.
7
Congratulations, enjoy your well-deserved retirement!
1
This is a complicated issue with no clear answers. Marriage was very painful for me, and was not my answer.
Upon, reflection, a fellow graduate student once said to me "you should be a nun". All my life I've felt drawn toward God, toward returning to my Catholic roots. God is the only one who has always loved me and shown mercy toward me, even in the midst of my arrogance and pride. Even now He is my provider.
The Catholic Church needs more priests and nuns. Had I felt empowered, I perhaps would have heard His call earlier.
A return to a more traditional family unit sounds wonderful, but we should probably examine what held many of those traditional units together: a devotion to God and Her Church.
But, there is no judgement here, as every marriage unit has variables: the husband and the wife, as God's love is invariant. We can only support and pray for "all marriages and families", as I do on each decade of my rosary every day.
Know that the Catholic Church, from Pope Francis, to priests and religious, to ordinary people like me are actively praying for "all marriages and families", and this means you and your marriage and your family. I'm about to pray that prayer five times as part of my daily rosary prayers right now.
May God's peace, which surpasses all understanding, surround you now and give you love and rest. Seek and you shall find, knock and the door will be opened for you. You're in my prayers
Upon, reflection, a fellow graduate student once said to me "you should be a nun". All my life I've felt drawn toward God, toward returning to my Catholic roots. God is the only one who has always loved me and shown mercy toward me, even in the midst of my arrogance and pride. Even now He is my provider.
The Catholic Church needs more priests and nuns. Had I felt empowered, I perhaps would have heard His call earlier.
A return to a more traditional family unit sounds wonderful, but we should probably examine what held many of those traditional units together: a devotion to God and Her Church.
But, there is no judgement here, as every marriage unit has variables: the husband and the wife, as God's love is invariant. We can only support and pray for "all marriages and families", as I do on each decade of my rosary every day.
Know that the Catholic Church, from Pope Francis, to priests and religious, to ordinary people like me are actively praying for "all marriages and families", and this means you and your marriage and your family. I'm about to pray that prayer five times as part of my daily rosary prayers right now.
May God's peace, which surpasses all understanding, surround you now and give you love and rest. Seek and you shall find, knock and the door will be opened for you. You're in my prayers
2
I belive we are over looking an important fact. That fact is that being a stay at home mother or father, which means managing the home, is one of the most difficult "jobs" that exists. That job has more impact on who our children become than any thing else. Unless a father is willing to share the homemaking chores qually with the mother, and most are not, then the whole family relationship breaks down. The best arrangement may be that either the father or the mother stays home to be responsible for the activites of the home while the other one works outside the home. Let's give homemaking the importance it deserves.
7
Life is a balance. Family needs, both financial and social, change from year to year. Couples need to be flexible and figure out what works best for their family. Being at home for a few years to give children a healthy start while struggling financially is planning ahead for intellectual and social development of the children. Delayed gratification is sadly missing in society. My husband and I struggled financially when our children were young and one of us stayed home but we recovered when they started full time school. To this day I never regret the financial distress- and I know we did the best thing we could for our children. They are millennials now and I suspect they will do they same when they have children.
9
Granularity and a pervasive reflex of determinism - puzzling and a bit distressing.
First of all, we see the world in very short range bursts, limited to the present and a fuzzy, limited aura of past and present.
Second, we steadfastly resist the awareness that nearly all social and economic realities that exist around us are constructed. That a near infinity of other possibilities for the shape of the present were possible, and even highly probable. Yet when similar patterns of economic and cultural realities produce entirely predictable outcomes (such as in the chilling decline of stable, two-parent homes and the rapid rise of drug addiction and government dependency among working class whites) we are at a loss to account for it.
Really? So why do we think that the Roma in Europe still exist, as they have since time out of mind (1000 yrs.+) in slummy encampments with pervasive failure to achieve higher education or social mobility? This is a necessary outcome for those who have their hands on the levers of social/economic reality. And so it goes.
That is true here as well. Social progress is a function of economic confidence and response to a workable array of mechanisms and incentives, broadly speaking. Talent - that is drive and curiosity - are randomly distributed. Any objective reading of history shows this clearly. So any efficient society is characterized by robust social mobility, both up and down. Our Social mobility has been falling rapidly. H-m-m-m.
First of all, we see the world in very short range bursts, limited to the present and a fuzzy, limited aura of past and present.
Second, we steadfastly resist the awareness that nearly all social and economic realities that exist around us are constructed. That a near infinity of other possibilities for the shape of the present were possible, and even highly probable. Yet when similar patterns of economic and cultural realities produce entirely predictable outcomes (such as in the chilling decline of stable, two-parent homes and the rapid rise of drug addiction and government dependency among working class whites) we are at a loss to account for it.
Really? So why do we think that the Roma in Europe still exist, as they have since time out of mind (1000 yrs.+) in slummy encampments with pervasive failure to achieve higher education or social mobility? This is a necessary outcome for those who have their hands on the levers of social/economic reality. And so it goes.
That is true here as well. Social progress is a function of economic confidence and response to a workable array of mechanisms and incentives, broadly speaking. Talent - that is drive and curiosity - are randomly distributed. Any objective reading of history shows this clearly. So any efficient society is characterized by robust social mobility, both up and down. Our Social mobility has been falling rapidly. H-m-m-m.
1
We are a couple over 50, with two independent daughters over 20. Our degrees and our skills have enabled us to be able to manage full-time careers and full-time parenting and remain in the dwindling middle class, We're fortunate.
The idea of a male's ego not wanting competition is difficult for me to understand. Make no mistake. My ego is colossal, but that does not mean I can't assume responsibility. In fact, I am so damn good I can be not just an excellent father and employee, I can be a great husband and citizen, too. And as far as being an Orioles fan, well, let's go O's!
That ego nonsense is a lame excuse from lame men.
The idea of a male's ego not wanting competition is difficult for me to understand. Make no mistake. My ego is colossal, but that does not mean I can't assume responsibility. In fact, I am so damn good I can be not just an excellent father and employee, I can be a great husband and citizen, too. And as far as being an Orioles fan, well, let's go O's!
That ego nonsense is a lame excuse from lame men.
16
The tortured search for a way around the fact of biological imprint is wasted energy. Not to worry fans of test-tube humanity! The amoral alchemists soon to be the leaders of the healthcare industry's conglomerates of the very near future will soon offer designer children with the genetics of your choice. Of course only the very wealthy will afford this, and they will absolutely patronize the service that promises perfect offspring without stretch marks. Only the underclasses will undergo "pregnancies", that is if the planned economy deems more workers are necessary. Then that designated class of worker bee will be permitted a state-monitored pregnancy. Lunacy you say? Ever hear of the "one-child" policy of the Chinese and how that policy was enforced? Already available medical technologies and the massive surveillance state apparatus make such future intrusions child's play. The growing divisions within society will inform the politics of the day; segregation by economic status, justified by "research" revealing criminal genetic dispositions, will be the law of the land. "Traditional gender roles"? How quaint. You haven't seen anything yet.
5
Choices aren't made and opinions aren't formed in a vacuum. The actual character of practical options, or lack of options, make a difference. So, for instance, it makes little sense to extrapolate too much from differences in millennial support for "a white woman in 2016" compared with "a black man in 2008." Uh, that would be HRC and Obama. At that level, all identities are personal, all choices are particularized. Same is true for decisions about bread-winning. They are contextually bound. And as for extrapolating too much from what high school seniors think, take that with a grain of salt. I've known a lot in that cohort (raised a few of them), and they are more captured by their highly limited perceptions of immediate circumstances than adults. Opinion studies are mostly of the garbage in, garbage out variety, especially when talking with a 17 year old. Watch what people do, in context, when it counts. Count me unimpressed with these surveys as indicating much of anything.
5
America seems to be slipping off the pace. It used to lead the world but now we feel it no longer matters. We notice Trump surrounds himself with old men and generally wants to return to the old days. Men may want to claw back to misogynist days but we won't let them. Most of the men on our street seem to do menial jobs like drive trucks and mow lawns while the women are teachers, managers and nurses.
6
I was fortunate enough to be a "stay-at-home mom" for many years when my children were young. I assure you, I accomplished more in each day than any "working man" attending corporate meetings! I think I speak for many working women when I say that, even with a full-time job, we are expected to be COO of the household - cooking, cleaning, planning, getting repairs done, paying bills, child care, etc. Our culture supports stay-at-home "ideals" but our economy does not.
7
Oh please. Those of us who work for pay also run entire households, do elder care, operate side businesses, volunteer, have civic duties, etc simultaneously. It's called "life" and nobody deserves a medal for it.
As to accomplishing more in a day, lol.
Being a housewife is only a full time job if you stretch to make it one.
As to accomplishing more in a day, lol.
Being a housewife is only a full time job if you stretch to make it one.
13
Don't you know? All that labor only counts if you have kids.
1
I am firm believer of equal pay and equal opportunities for men and woman. However, a husband/wife relationship and raising a family is not a 50/50 relationship at any given point of time and circumstance. One does what has to be done when it has to be done. Ex. The lawn needs mowing. Husband is away, wife mows the lawn. Baby needs diaper changed. Wife is occupied. Husband changes diaper.
No need for discussion. It is just done.
No need for discussion. It is just done.
12
Thwre have been many studies, published in this very paper, about how Millennial males are maturing slower than previous generations. Slow to graduate, slow to get meaningful work, slow to get out of mom/dads house, and slow to commit to women. Still holding onto their boyhood games and pursuits.
So of course they want a wife, er, mommy at home.
I see it all the time with Milly-males at work. Incapable of caring for their basic needs, many cant do laundry, cant cook without a microwave, can barely dress themselves...unless its cargo shorts, superhero T-shirts, and flip flops...
Then they find a female partner who at first thinks it cute and likes being relied on - till it becomes a chore and exposes their partners immaturity. By then they've married and realize that the wedding ritual didnt turn them into men.
So of course they want a wife, er, mommy at home.
I see it all the time with Milly-males at work. Incapable of caring for their basic needs, many cant do laundry, cant cook without a microwave, can barely dress themselves...unless its cargo shorts, superhero T-shirts, and flip flops...
Then they find a female partner who at first thinks it cute and likes being relied on - till it becomes a chore and exposes their partners immaturity. By then they've married and realize that the wedding ritual didnt turn them into men.
6
Odd article. It conflates attitudinal beliefs (like whether men should make all the important decisions) with empirical ones (like "confidence that employed women are just as good mothers as stay-at-home moms"). Is it somehow retrograde to believe the latter to be true... even if it actually does turn out to be?
The premise seems to deliberately confuse equality of outcome with equality of opportunity; and allowing families to decide what best suits their members with some form of unspoken coercion. Anyone with an actual family will tell you that having both parents working and no other close family members around puts timing stresses on just about everything. If some families are willing to forego additional income to allow for more together-time and flexibility, it's unclear how this is synonymous with lack of progress by women.
The premise seems to deliberately confuse equality of outcome with equality of opportunity; and allowing families to decide what best suits their members with some form of unspoken coercion. Anyone with an actual family will tell you that having both parents working and no other close family members around puts timing stresses on just about everything. If some families are willing to forego additional income to allow for more together-time and flexibility, it's unclear how this is synonymous with lack of progress by women.
6
This survey is flawed, small skewed sample size, lack of demographic descriptors & social & economic factors. Thus, findings are of questionable validity & reliability. Just another statistical survey of low quality, as reported here. NYT should have better science editors and writers!
As an older baby boomer, I find the issue ironic. When women stayed home before WWII, most worked from dawn to dusk doing household chores to ensure their families’ survival and did not helicopter children or engage them in reading, athletic, artistic and other child-centered pursuits. In the 1950s, when time-saving household appliances became widely available, many women had too much time on their hands. Hence, the quiet epidemic of alcoholism and “yellow pill” (Mick Jagger's "Mother's Little Helper" aka valium) addiction, especially in the suburbs where mobility was limited (few 2-car families). This environment helped to spawn the 1960s when youngsters of both genders rebelled against the family structure. The U.S. college system also switched to meritocracy instead of entitlement in order to outpace Soviet scientific advances. And women realized that they could excel as well as their male peers in professions other than nursing, teaching or staying home. Paradigm shift.
Why do American youth continue to look at the past with such nostalgia? It wasn't that good. Each generation has its own challenges. Look forward, millennials, not backwards! And for all our sakes, study history!
As an older baby boomer, I find the issue ironic. When women stayed home before WWII, most worked from dawn to dusk doing household chores to ensure their families’ survival and did not helicopter children or engage them in reading, athletic, artistic and other child-centered pursuits. In the 1950s, when time-saving household appliances became widely available, many women had too much time on their hands. Hence, the quiet epidemic of alcoholism and “yellow pill” (Mick Jagger's "Mother's Little Helper" aka valium) addiction, especially in the suburbs where mobility was limited (few 2-car families). This environment helped to spawn the 1960s when youngsters of both genders rebelled against the family structure. The U.S. college system also switched to meritocracy instead of entitlement in order to outpace Soviet scientific advances. And women realized that they could excel as well as their male peers in professions other than nursing, teaching or staying home. Paradigm shift.
Why do American youth continue to look at the past with such nostalgia? It wasn't that good. Each generation has its own challenges. Look forward, millennials, not backwards! And for all our sakes, study history!
11
Wait, wait. This article makes me so infuriated I can only attempt to explain my fury. Even if this analysis were true, which I doubt, Prof. Coontz so perfectly embodies the single-minded insult to everyone under the age of 35 that words can hardly describe the callous indifference I experience. The ageist disdain is so obvious I can chew the words. The insult is palpable.
The unstated assumption underwriting the entire expose is choice. Would you choose to have a single family income or would you prefer a multiple income household? What world do you live in? The issue at hand is not a woman's right to work or men's attitudes towards a woman's preference. Millennials don't have a choice. You either create a personal partnership or you languish in economic servitude.
Personally, I couldn't live with a woman that wasn't intellectually curious and independently ambitious regardless of income. I hold that view not because I'm some glowing bastion of feminine glory but because I'd eventually find myself bored and disparate from my partner. Fights inevitably ensue as personalities collide but the situation will always remain interesting.
Just because Millennials reject an outmoded definition of feminism based on a reality that no longer exist does not mean younger males are suddenly misogynists in the mold of 18th century American. Good grief! You actually teach this stuff to young adults in school? I hope Coontz isn't tenure.
The unstated assumption underwriting the entire expose is choice. Would you choose to have a single family income or would you prefer a multiple income household? What world do you live in? The issue at hand is not a woman's right to work or men's attitudes towards a woman's preference. Millennials don't have a choice. You either create a personal partnership or you languish in economic servitude.
Personally, I couldn't live with a woman that wasn't intellectually curious and independently ambitious regardless of income. I hold that view not because I'm some glowing bastion of feminine glory but because I'd eventually find myself bored and disparate from my partner. Fights inevitably ensue as personalities collide but the situation will always remain interesting.
Just because Millennials reject an outmoded definition of feminism based on a reality that no longer exist does not mean younger males are suddenly misogynists in the mold of 18th century American. Good grief! You actually teach this stuff to young adults in school? I hope Coontz isn't tenure.
14
She's a famous researcher on marriage and family and I am with you. Her approach in this article smacks of gender stereotypes .
And feminism is a position that seeks equality for everyone. It's a moniker that has gotten bad press, unfortunately because most think it means you are for women and against men and it is for full equality for everyone regardless.
Partners should figure this out as a thoughtful partnership. If they decide together who does what etc regardless of who does what in any other partnership then that's what's important.
And feminism is a position that seeks equality for everyone. It's a moniker that has gotten bad press, unfortunately because most think it means you are for women and against men and it is for full equality for everyone regardless.
Partners should figure this out as a thoughtful partnership. If they decide together who does what etc regardless of who does what in any other partnership then that's what's important.
2
I am a "millennial" woman in my late-20s. This article was interesting, but somewhat irrelevant considering the fact that many women my age are choosing to delay children or not have them at all. Why? Because we're all drowning in student debt, work 60+ hours per week, can't purchase a home, have offices that are non-supportive of work-life balance, don't have paid maternity or paternity leave, and couldn't afford the rising cost of child care if we tried. Oh and, not to mention, with the potential for repeal of the ACA, we might need to save up for maternity expenses. Thanks, boomers!
44
Good. We realky, really don't need everyone to breed. Making it a hardship is great for the planet and other species, which is one reason i would never support extra breaks & perks for middle class procreators. The world will stumble on without your offspring -- and it's not other people's job to make your 'dreams' come true.
2
Don't blame the boomers. Blame the one-percenters. The US could have subsidized childcare and universal healthcare, but the wealthy want endless tax cuts and no government except police and military.
3
As more professional jobs require 24/7 commitment, it's not surprising to see people emphasize more traditional families. How can anyone work 60 hours a week and also pursue a graduate degree while maintaining their personal brand on social media while also doing laundry and parenting? Get a wife instead!
We have a choice. We can either make jobs conform to family life or we can decide that those with jobs can't be involved in family. Given how many childless people I know resent the split commitments of working parents, I wouldn't be at all surprised if we went back to a world where women got fired for getting pregnant.
We have a choice. We can either make jobs conform to family life or we can decide that those with jobs can't be involved in family. Given how many childless people I know resent the split commitments of working parents, I wouldn't be at all surprised if we went back to a world where women got fired for getting pregnant.
13
If Dr. Coontz's editorial is not a powerful plea to re-engage the national conversation about gender role equality, I don't know what could be. Millennial reactions to Hillary Clinton broke my heart. The crude, reflexive misogyny of the "Bernie Bros" joined to the disappointingly weak support for her by young women, had me scared to death throughout the campaign. Noisy, thoughtless voices in the punditocracy wanted to talk about anything but sex equality and gender roles. Even the spectacularly talented, compassionate, and thoughtful young women and men I have the privilege of teaching said "but it's not sex, it's just her." No. It's sex. Men -- and even many women -- in this country simply cannot imagine a world in which men and women walk through life shoulder to shoulder, as genuine partners. And the young ones are even less able to envision this than are we aging Baby Boomers.
Why? Why do we forever ask women to step back, to take second place, to serve everyone around them, never to ask how all of us can serve each other?
And this doesn't even recognize the extraordinary level of privilege one has to have in order to "choose" to stay home. Most of the women on the planet can't make that "choice." What are we doing for them? And if we don't change core beliefs, won't we still be stigmatizing women who must -- or want to -- work?
But we can't despair. We can't turn away, dejected and dispirited. We simply must start talking with one another again.
Why? Why do we forever ask women to step back, to take second place, to serve everyone around them, never to ask how all of us can serve each other?
And this doesn't even recognize the extraordinary level of privilege one has to have in order to "choose" to stay home. Most of the women on the planet can't make that "choice." What are we doing for them? And if we don't change core beliefs, won't we still be stigmatizing women who must -- or want to -- work?
But we can't despair. We can't turn away, dejected and dispirited. We simply must start talking with one another again.
26
Yes, we need paid leave (for all sorts of caregiving, not just to care for children because people who don't have children need time off, too, to care for aging parents and loved ones), but there's a lot of care that happens after a baby's first few months or even year. Then what? I suggest we look to the past to our solution -- cooperative child-rearing or what anthropologists call alloparenting and what I call carenting.
We could take alloparenting to the next level to address today’s nontraditional families by creating created policies that established a community-based “village” of quality, trained, ongoing caregivers. Why shouldn’t caregiving be a communal obligation and not just left in the hands of families, no matter their form? Not only would it help parents by giving them support beyond even the most generous family leave policy, but it also would provide children with a variety of mentors, and parents – even non-biological ones — with caretakers as they age.
It could happen through a volunteer program similar to the Peace Corps but geared specifically toward caregiving. But I prefer a mandatory program to involve men (to degender caregiving, typically seen as women's work and thus undervalued and underpaid). Israel requires all men and woman at age 18 to join the army; we could require America's 18-year-olds to serve for as caregivers, after sufficient training and monitoring, in exchange for free college.
We could take alloparenting to the next level to address today’s nontraditional families by creating created policies that established a community-based “village” of quality, trained, ongoing caregivers. Why shouldn’t caregiving be a communal obligation and not just left in the hands of families, no matter their form? Not only would it help parents by giving them support beyond even the most generous family leave policy, but it also would provide children with a variety of mentors, and parents – even non-biological ones — with caretakers as they age.
It could happen through a volunteer program similar to the Peace Corps but geared specifically toward caregiving. But I prefer a mandatory program to involve men (to degender caregiving, typically seen as women's work and thus undervalued and underpaid). Israel requires all men and woman at age 18 to join the army; we could require America's 18-year-olds to serve for as caregivers, after sufficient training and monitoring, in exchange for free college.
3
So parents get paid leave for a voluntary lifestyle choice that presumably makes them happy and fulfilled, but the rest of us only (maybe) get paid leave for illness and the illness of loved ones.
Procreators always espouse 'heads I win, tales you lose' when it comes to allocating society's resources. The rest of us hard working taxpayers are fed up with that.
Procreators always espouse 'heads I win, tales you lose' when it comes to allocating society's resources. The rest of us hard working taxpayers are fed up with that.
1
All people should get paid leave for caregiving, an essential part of society. Whom they choose to care for should be irrelevant.
I am a white male lawyer, born in '56, married to a white female lawyer one year older. We deliberately chose not to have children. We have both worked our whole lives. While we both have had good careers (she is a business transaction attorney and I am a civil litigator), and have both always made good money, my wife has nearly always made more. This has never bothered me. After all, I am as much a beneficiary of her talents than she has been. I never wanted a wife who could not support herself. I never wanted the responsibility of supporting a wife and children on my own. I never saw the value of having children in an urban society. I wanted a wife who was an equal and working and smart and interesting.
I also don't understand why it is the responsibility of those of us who are childless to fill in and make life easier for those who have chosen to have children beyond a period of three to four months. In the same vein, people who cannot afford to buy a house and have (or choose) to rent shouldn't have to finance those who do buy a house vis-a-vis tax deductions for mortgage interest and property taxes.
I also don't understand why it is the responsibility of those of us who are childless to fill in and make life easier for those who have chosen to have children beyond a period of three to four months. In the same vein, people who cannot afford to buy a house and have (or choose) to rent shouldn't have to finance those who do buy a house vis-a-vis tax deductions for mortgage interest and property taxes.
14
You know that "those kids" will some day take care of you. It's mind blowing to me that educated people have not realized that this society will not work for very long unless we have kids. That's the only thing that keeps us going.
2
It's absolutely true that gender equality is more deeply entrenched in Europe (and even some places in Asia) than in the US. But the causes are cultural, as well as economic. American culture has an insane preoccupation with motherhood that is reflected in such uniquely American mass hysterias as the abortion debate and mommy wars. American women believe that without babies your life is not complete and that in order to bring up your child properly you must make him/her the center of your existence. Both notions are untrue. Having children is very nice (speaking as mother of two) but you can have a very good life without kids. You cannot have a life worthy of its name without a good job, education and money. And kids grow up perfectly well with working parents, distracted parents, work-obsessed parents and divorced parents. Love your child, be honest with them and bring them up to understand that they owe you, not the other way round. Until American women adopt a more relaxed attitude to childbearing, they'll drive themselves back into the patriarchal trap without any help from the men.
7
Other species will benefit from our childfreedom as well.
I think many people lack imagination and can't figure out what to do with themselves if they don't mindlessly follow the traditional Lifescript.
I think many people lack imagination and can't figure out what to do with themselves if they don't mindlessly follow the traditional Lifescript.
Agree overall except that our children don't owe us, they didn't choose to be born, we chose to have them. We therefore owe it to them to be good parents.
1
Do Millennial Men Want Stay-at-Home Wives?
No, men want stay-at-home mothers. Their wives are understandably concerned by such domestic arrangements, so in the USA there is typically just one adult female in the hen coop. But in many other cultures down through history, the mother-in-law has played and continues to play a critical economic role in any household.
No, men want stay-at-home mothers. Their wives are understandably concerned by such domestic arrangements, so in the USA there is typically just one adult female in the hen coop. But in many other cultures down through history, the mother-in-law has played and continues to play a critical economic role in any household.
7
Well, I guess this explains that. I am a Boomer Feminist, now grandmother, and have puzzled over my daughter-in-law's decision to be a stay-at-home mom (she has no intentions of returning to work, EVER) and lamented that my son seem to go along with her decision, albeit reluctantly. Perhaps it's more generational than I realize, but those of us who fought so hard and so long for gender equality can't help but regret that our visions for women and men have not gained sufficient traction. Yes, it's hard to be two working parents unless division of labor and childcare concerns are handled appropriately. Yet, from the majority of couples whom I observe around me who managed this balancing act, there seems to be a greater respect and love that lasts throughout the years than those who chose a one-sided deal.
6
All of this seems to me to be far too complicated. I am a baby boomer. My wife and I shared parenting responsibilities 50-50 after she returned to work. We divorced and continued the 50-50 relationship, except now one week was hers and one week was mine. There are all kinds of obstacles to equal sharing. But most of them are in the minds of the parents. I had a job. She had a job. What was more natural than equal sharing by equal partners?
5
Well, the dog or it's cartoon depiction sure gets it right… Slobber and all!
I have a graduate education and am not afraid of working hard. Decided to marry a career driven man. I have needed to stay at home so that our children will have the support that they need. Having "childcare" cannot ever provide the individual dedication of a parent as children grow. Yes, I believe you can outsource care when they are very young, but not when they are growing or teen years. However, fear not! There is much to do to keep the stay-at-home mom brain on high octane. Between managing our family schedule, budget, travel, education, household, relationships, activities, development, working part-time from home when kids are in school, etc. I work harder than if I was working outside of the house. I fully use my MBA degree as Parent Inc.. My two children will be an intense 20 year commitment. But if I live to be 80 years old, that is 60 years where my children's well being it not be so intensely my responsibility. Sometimes we can have it all... but not all at the same time and not exactly as we might think is perfect. Also, if my husband did not make good money... I would be happy to downsize. Stuff is not as important as meeting your obligations and the comfort that brings. Lastly, every dollar my husband makes, is legally 50% my earnings as well. Likewise, every dollar that I invest or save for my family is 50% his. So in the end, we are equal partners, and maybe one that is more efficient than the 50/50 outside work model.
7
I really cannot understand how you can outsource young children care but not teen agers??? Kids really need mom when they babies. My teen agers can mostly take care of themselves. I mean you don't need to take them to/from school, dress them, brush their teeth, arrange play dates, take them to hobbies, not even cook..
The average PERSON (male or female) prefers meaningful work outside the home 25-30 hours per week (~ 5-6 hours per day). This leaves enough time for both parents to hang out with their kids, cook, clean, exercise, and have a little fun.
The argument that "some people want to work" and "some people want to stay at home" is baloney. Everyone wants balance. Why is this so hard to make happen?
- A still hopeful Millennial mom
The argument that "some people want to work" and "some people want to stay at home" is baloney. Everyone wants balance. Why is this so hard to make happen?
- A still hopeful Millennial mom
12
Don't worry. Do the best you can and know God sees your pain and aspirations and never leaves your side. He watches over your husband also, and of course your children. His love is so strong, that this anxiety you feel is not from Him. Every situation is unique; the NYTimes comment section is too volatile of a place to find true comfort or peace. I would take what you read in these comment sections with a grain of salt.
Not Mark...
I come from a generation where few women went for higher education, few women had careers and few expected to work full time, and with as much ambition as men, after motherhood. I was the exception, but could not find men to marry me...though they were all attracted to the smart sassy woman with a career. I stayed single up until my 40s, when the academic world was getting more and more demanding (with its own new kind of sexism...where women scholars were all Adjuncts, teachers, poorly paid and poorly funded, while male academics had all the high status, research jobs, more funds, etc) with little validation, support and hope. I got married, more like settled, to a very nice engineer in Silicon Valley who ended up with Huntington Disease.
Women of my generation, who wanted careers, never found supportive sensitive helpful appreciative men. Many of my female colleagues stayed single, got divorced, had affairs and some even chose motherhood without wedlock or out of a petri dish.
It did appear to get better for Gen X...then it all went downhill again.
I noticed this as a woman faculty in the social sciences LA and SF where more and more male students, coming from a macho Latin culture, patriarchal Asian culture and misogynistic Middle Eastern culture, could not deal with intelligent educated women as faculty, let alone as partners. They were constantly arguing with me or trying to up me in the class room with their egos. Yes they were the millennials!
I come from a generation where few women went for higher education, few women had careers and few expected to work full time, and with as much ambition as men, after motherhood. I was the exception, but could not find men to marry me...though they were all attracted to the smart sassy woman with a career. I stayed single up until my 40s, when the academic world was getting more and more demanding (with its own new kind of sexism...where women scholars were all Adjuncts, teachers, poorly paid and poorly funded, while male academics had all the high status, research jobs, more funds, etc) with little validation, support and hope. I got married, more like settled, to a very nice engineer in Silicon Valley who ended up with Huntington Disease.
Women of my generation, who wanted careers, never found supportive sensitive helpful appreciative men. Many of my female colleagues stayed single, got divorced, had affairs and some even chose motherhood without wedlock or out of a petri dish.
It did appear to get better for Gen X...then it all went downhill again.
I noticed this as a woman faculty in the social sciences LA and SF where more and more male students, coming from a macho Latin culture, patriarchal Asian culture and misogynistic Middle Eastern culture, could not deal with intelligent educated women as faculty, let alone as partners. They were constantly arguing with me or trying to up me in the class room with their egos. Yes they were the millennials!
13
That's that. Time to emigrate to Europe.
3
The economic situation isn't that great over there either.
1
We elected to not have children. Smartest decision we ever made because it took both of us to working 60 hours a week to put away enough money for a secure retirement. It also allowed us to contract out the cleaning and maintenance jobs.
And the simple fact is that if half the population leaves the workforce the remaining "survivors" face a lot less competition. No wonder men want stay at home wives. A free and legal slave and a better shot at a good job.
And the simple fact is that if half the population leaves the workforce the remaining "survivors" face a lot less competition. No wonder men want stay at home wives. A free and legal slave and a better shot at a good job.
7
Whatever men may want, a woman who stays out of the workforce to stay with her children is a fool. She thinks that she can choose to go back when she wants and earn what her education seems to "entitle" her to. She thinks that her dual-income household will last a lifetime. By and large, she is wrong. Somewhere around 50% of all marriages end in divorce. Women who stop working to raise their children find that they are not in demand when they try to go back. Many end up living on the margin, unable to provide a decent life for themselves or their kids.
Every adult in a family needs to maintain her or his ability to support that family. Stuff happens. Even if you pay out a significant amount of the household income for childcare keep in mind that you are investing in your future ability to work and receive decent payment. That matters for the future of every person in that household.
Every adult in a family needs to maintain her or his ability to support that family. Stuff happens. Even if you pay out a significant amount of the household income for childcare keep in mind that you are investing in your future ability to work and receive decent payment. That matters for the future of every person in that household.
9
From other media, millenials are putting off marriage until later. That gives times for both parties to perhaps complete degrees and or start careers. So the guy wants his wife to stay home. Who then fills in the gap for well prepared professionals- doctors, lawyers, teachers, engineers, nurses, military officers, politicans, managers, and all the rest? Cutting out the contribution of 50% of population because of an X chromosome is pathetic. The little women staying home and keeping the heath burning has always been a fantasy. Women have always worked. Hard. and taken care of their families
3
The biggest lie that feminists told me in the 1970's and 1980's is that women can have it all. Woman in American can't. Not all at once, anyway. However, be careful, young ones.
If you want the stay at home dream, and want to raise your own children, be careful. I would want that in retrospect. But, unless you choose a devout man, he could cheat. He could leave. He could die. Then you will have the children, the job, everything.
This scenario is not good if you have no education.
It's practical to get that degree and start off on a career track for a few years, one you can return to if plan A doesn't work. I know that sounds cynical, but as one whose been to hell and back, I implore you to keep God in the center of your marriage.
I am convinced that without God marriage will fall apart, because if we are our own gods (as our humanist upbringing tells us), why would a man stay when you're older, when things get tough?
From one generation to the next: choose your mate wisely. If you're going to give up everything for him, make sure he's worthy of your sacrifice. Because you may end up having it all, then you'll be grateful for those Gloria Steinmans out there that at least have you an option.
Keep God in your marriage and both of you pray constantly.
If you want the stay at home dream, and want to raise your own children, be careful. I would want that in retrospect. But, unless you choose a devout man, he could cheat. He could leave. He could die. Then you will have the children, the job, everything.
This scenario is not good if you have no education.
It's practical to get that degree and start off on a career track for a few years, one you can return to if plan A doesn't work. I know that sounds cynical, but as one whose been to hell and back, I implore you to keep God in the center of your marriage.
I am convinced that without God marriage will fall apart, because if we are our own gods (as our humanist upbringing tells us), why would a man stay when you're older, when things get tough?
From one generation to the next: choose your mate wisely. If you're going to give up everything for him, make sure he's worthy of your sacrifice. Because you may end up having it all, then you'll be grateful for those Gloria Steinmans out there that at least have you an option.
Keep God in your marriage and both of you pray constantly.
1
My marriage is not God centered and the love between us is so deep that it is insulting to hear that you believe it is impossible to achieve without God.
9
Judging purely from what I see on the Internet, the most vocal men really seem to really hate, hate, hate supporting their stay-at-home wives and children. To them, it would seem that women have no value unless they work at least one job and bring home a nice fat paycheck. These men do not mention whether or not they pull their own weight at home.
4
Am I really reading this in 2017? Not "Do Millennial's Want One Parent to Stay at Home?" but "Do Millennial Men Want Stay-at-Home Wives?". We're really still framing things about what the man wants?
I'm one of the dreaded baby boomers who was adamant about having a professional career as a woman, even if it meant not having children so I could manage it. Support for childcare would have made a difference. And the author, a woman, is framing this as a discussion about what men want, accepting that men will make more money than women. Just Wow.
I'm one of the dreaded baby boomers who was adamant about having a professional career as a woman, even if it meant not having children so I could manage it. Support for childcare would have made a difference. And the author, a woman, is framing this as a discussion about what men want, accepting that men will make more money than women. Just Wow.
10
It's nice to read the comments from women who have stayed home to raise families with success. I wonder what the same women would have done when their children were young and they had taken them selves out of the workforce for years, to discover their husband was leaving them?
With divorce running at about 50% I'm surprised there aren't more comments from women who were blindsided. That's the reason why so many Boomer women worked, this very thing happened to their mothers with great frequency.
With divorce running at about 50% I'm surprised there aren't more comments from women who were blindsided. That's the reason why so many Boomer women worked, this very thing happened to their mothers with great frequency.
8
We are too tired and overworked to reply.
2
Family friendly policies could include leave, but also recognition of non-paid labor by any adult caregiver, because caregiving whether raising children (on a per child basis through age 18) or caring for a family member makes having a full time job difficult to impossible, but people aren't sitting home doing their nails if they are caring for people. Make it like the earned income credit. It's highly likely that the money gets plowed back into the economy.
I'm a millennial whose mom on her own accord retired from her career at 26 to stay at home and raise my brothers and I. The arrangement worked for my family and I'm grateful for the choices my parents made. They made this decision, in part, because they grew up in blue collar two-income parent homes, and they saw an adoption of traditional gender roles as progressive advancement.
6
Like many professional moms (or dads?) in Europe, Canadian mothers can choose to step back from their jobs thanks to their country's national health insurance. When the kids start school they can work part time and, later, full time. Good for the families good for companies who can be more flexible with hiring.
One of the biggest errors of the 1970s feminists was disdaining those women who chose to stay at home all the while proclaiming choice as a cornerstone of the agenda. Today's young mom who choose something more traditional aren't likely to turn into Betty Friedan's miserable women of 1963, the middle class mothers of the Boomer girls who rebelled against the mystique five years later. Their and the Gen X's daughters will be managing the household quite differently. No June Cleavers or Laura Petris for them.
One of the biggest errors of the 1970s feminists was disdaining those women who chose to stay at home all the while proclaiming choice as a cornerstone of the agenda. Today's young mom who choose something more traditional aren't likely to turn into Betty Friedan's miserable women of 1963, the middle class mothers of the Boomer girls who rebelled against the mystique five years later. Their and the Gen X's daughters will be managing the household quite differently. No June Cleavers or Laura Petris for them.
I'm a part of that more progressive 17 at '94 generation, and my wife makes more than 4x my salary, and frankly, I find it perfectly delightful.
1
I'm a woman, working professional, in my 20s and love the idea of a stay at home husband... who is also really smart.. can take care of the kids and cook well so all I do is work and come home to a nice meal... who wouldn't want a stay at home spouse! ...... the reality is I think most couples can't afford to have one spouse stay at home..... so we'll all have to keep dreaming haha!
2
The point of the women's liberation movement was not to replace the model of the ideal roles for men and women from being male breadwinner-women homemaker with a model where the role of the man in a relationship was identical to that of a woman. The objective was for each relationship to be free of society imposing role definitions.
One would expect that a poll would result in countless numbers of "ideal" roles.
In a patriarchal society, success is measured by wealth, and each partner's power is defined by how much wealth they control or contribute. Women's liberation was expected to move beyond dollarization to valuing contributions to a relationship to real value.
It was thought that some families would have two working parents, some relationships would have not children, some would pair a househusband with a career woman. Different households would have different roles "assigned" to men and women and there would be no societal norm to which people would be expected to conform.
Instead, we seen to have "feminists" who imply that a stay at home woman is inferior to her husband employed for cash and that a couple with two working adults are somehow inferior if one does more housework than the other.
You missed the whole point of the movement. Although it is no business of an employer to discriminate in decisions of hiring, promotion, job assignments, there is no shame in declining opportunities for advancement or overtime for men or women. Money is not power.
One would expect that a poll would result in countless numbers of "ideal" roles.
In a patriarchal society, success is measured by wealth, and each partner's power is defined by how much wealth they control or contribute. Women's liberation was expected to move beyond dollarization to valuing contributions to a relationship to real value.
It was thought that some families would have two working parents, some relationships would have not children, some would pair a househusband with a career woman. Different households would have different roles "assigned" to men and women and there would be no societal norm to which people would be expected to conform.
Instead, we seen to have "feminists" who imply that a stay at home woman is inferior to her husband employed for cash and that a couple with two working adults are somehow inferior if one does more housework than the other.
You missed the whole point of the movement. Although it is no business of an employer to discriminate in decisions of hiring, promotion, job assignments, there is no shame in declining opportunities for advancement or overtime for men or women. Money is not power.
4
If the wife stays home, it doesn't mean she has to do everything at home. My wife stays home with two kids (7 &9), but I'll do ALL the cooking and grocery shopping, and also prepare the kids' school meals. I'll also pick up the kids from school a couple times a week if my wife is in yoga or something. Luckily I'm an engineer with totally flexible working hours.
For millenial woman who think a traditional family arrangement is less stressful, just wait till you get a divorce...
9
I wonder if the rise of the religious right has any role in this. A friend's son and daughter-in-law joined a mega church and have become quite "traditional" about family structure.
1
Day care in NYC costs a fortune. It is very tempting for the lower earning partner to stay home when all of your income goes to child care that you could provide yourself. Unfortunately, that is short term thinking. Think about the cost to lifetime earning potential.
4
In unscientific focus groups of my niece and daughter's friends, not only do their male peers want "Stepford wives," these fearless females of the 21st century seem to prefer "a husband taking care of them financially" and somewhat emotionally. Feminism 2.0 gives them the option to elect such a choice! Oh, the delicious irony of equal rights for women.
3
They may want it but very few men can afford a Stepford wife.
I'm a millennial who grew up with an unrelenting message from the media and society as a whole that mothers should not stay at home. The explicit message was a noble one -- women should have financial independence, they should have the same opportunities open to them that men do, and they should be free to pursue their interests unfettered by 1950s housewife expectations.
This message had another side to it however that wasn't so rosy. The urging for women to work was accompanied by an implicit message about the value of work: that was it was "better" than raising your children, and that those stay-at-home moms who did so were, at best, missing out (or perhaps ignorant), or at worst, oppressed. It also made it significantly more difficult for women to nurse their children, which has been shown to have health benefits that formula does not. And of course, it cut down on family time and replaced it with the care of strangers.
With the above in mind I’m not surprised to see these results. There isn't a “one-size fits all” approach that works well for everyone. In some marriages having both parents work is best, but the idea that it’s the panacea of the future simply isn't the case. Instead of immediately casting the increasing acceptance of a more traditional marriage as a regressive problem, there should be respect for the fact that such an arrangement brings many potential positives to the table.
This message had another side to it however that wasn't so rosy. The urging for women to work was accompanied by an implicit message about the value of work: that was it was "better" than raising your children, and that those stay-at-home moms who did so were, at best, missing out (or perhaps ignorant), or at worst, oppressed. It also made it significantly more difficult for women to nurse their children, which has been shown to have health benefits that formula does not. And of course, it cut down on family time and replaced it with the care of strangers.
With the above in mind I’m not surprised to see these results. There isn't a “one-size fits all” approach that works well for everyone. In some marriages having both parents work is best, but the idea that it’s the panacea of the future simply isn't the case. Instead of immediately casting the increasing acceptance of a more traditional marriage as a regressive problem, there should be respect for the fact that such an arrangement brings many potential positives to the table.
17
And traditional marriage also brings some negatives. It's not surprising that wives that do not have economic independence tend to be the ones most likely to suffer domestic abuse.
Hmmm, gender equality rises until the nineties, then starts to dip. I see Economic forces at work. The article mentions the availability of subsidized daycare, but what it seems to leave out is the long period of stagnant wages in the U.S. from the seventies to the present. Let's say that there is a generational lag which is why the trend towards equality only reverses in the nineties. After twenty years of stagnant wages and declining opportunities young people get the message.
11
Anyone who thinks they can raise a family on one income nowadays is insane. This idea of the man works while the wifey stays at home with the kiddies isn't only sexist and limiting, it's completely unrealistic. These young men who're dreaming of such a dynamic can keep dreaming - even if they found a women willing to play Holly Homemaker, once there's a mortgage and bills to pay, guess who's going back to work. This is why so many marriages end in divorce and will keep ending in divorce. Regardless, people need to think of more creative, productive things to do with their lives than getting married and breeding.
37
@Waltzy: There are professions which pay enough money for one person in a marriage to be the sole earner and raise a family. There aren't a lot of them, but they do exist. For example, software developers typically earn enough money to support a family. Depending on the circumstances and the cost of living in an area sacrifices may need to be made in order to craft a workable budget, but to state that the idea is "insane" is simply false.
Men who crave stay-at-home-wives want mommies to do their laundry, cook their meals and clean up after them. They prefer not to grow up. Even if they earn enough to support the whole family, they don't make attractive sex partners. Women desire men, not little boys. This setup leads to unhappy, unfulfilling marital relationships.
44
I disagree. It's far better for children to have their mother at home with them. The bonus for the husband is the laundry might get done and dinner cooked. I admire men who think staying home and taking care of their family is THE most important thing. Maybe more important than the BMW or the yearly trip to Hawaii is a mom at home when the kids get home to do homework and take them to their after school activities. Why have kids if you won't be home with them? It's never made sense to me. Men crave what's best for their offspring......
12
This sounds like you have one or more anecdotal examples from which you've drawn unfounded and far-reaching conclusions from. If you step out from whatever bubble you're you'll find there are plenty of successful marriages in which the wife stays at home and the man works, while there are plenty of unsuccessful marriages in which both partners work.
1
Unfortunately, most men I have known in the working world seemed more interested in the convenience afforded to themselves by having a stay at home wife, rather than the benefits to the children.
3
The title seems out of step with the essay. The real crux seems to be a call for more support for parental leave and support, but the title leads one to think young men are sexist pigs. Too bad really.
20
I did not see any call to action for better support for parental support...the rest of it, yes, you are correct
And when he leaves you a fifty, what do you do? The children are grown and have lives of their own. You do not have social security or a pension of your own. Friends you have made are more comfortable with his new wife and lifestyle.
the courts will give you three to five years alimony. There is non-fault divorce now. He can just leave. What is the plan for the rest of your life? Of course, you are talking about the reason white men are now taking drugs. Blah, Blah Blah. It is the woman's fault, if she would just let him make all of the decisions and not be a competitor in bed, until he goes through middle life and wants not only an accomplished woman but a younger woman. Women, society, it is not our responsibility to save the white male, he is a done piece of fish.
the courts will give you three to five years alimony. There is non-fault divorce now. He can just leave. What is the plan for the rest of your life? Of course, you are talking about the reason white men are now taking drugs. Blah, Blah Blah. It is the woman's fault, if she would just let him make all of the decisions and not be a competitor in bed, until he goes through middle life and wants not only an accomplished woman but a younger woman. Women, society, it is not our responsibility to save the white male, he is a done piece of fish.
64
This argument assured the inevitable election of Hillary Clinton and the endless ascendancy of the Democratic party. Rumors of the demise of white men are greatly exaggerated, particularly as peddled by bitter women.
2
Larry, thank you. "There is always a woman to blame" is the mantra that my mother, sister and I jokingly invoke, particularly when it comes to the idea that women's demands for fairness in society (particularly with regard to the gender pay gap) are some kind of a threat to men. I grew up with a stay-at-home mom who was from a fairly well-off old Southern family. My father earned a good living despite this, and my mother spent her time raising her daughters and doing volunteer work. We had no history of divorces in our family until my husband decided after I got pushed out of my Wall Street career that he was going to find a newer model who could earn more money, so he embarked on multiple affairs. I endured constant sexual harassment during my career, and turned down a significantly higher paying position to move into an area of the industry where I could work from home if necessary so I wouldn't have to put an infant in daycare (I always wondered what the point of having children was if you were going to give birth and hand them over to someone else to raise). I shot myself in the foot. I never considered myself a feminist, but after I watched my father recklessly lose all of my mother's family's money in the stock market after his employer, Delta Air Lines, filed for bankruptcy, dissolving the pilots' pensions, and then subsequently left my mother 2 yrs before their 50th anniversary for a younger model, your point is well taken. Patriarchy has failed us I'm afraid.
7
I'm sorry that happened to you. A very similar thing happened to me. I believe that we can't have a return to traditional values without a turn to God.
The secular humanists are destroying the family. This is a complicated issue with no clear answer. It probably depends on the man, the woman, and their devotion to God's will.
Upon personal reflection, life as a nun is a better option. This is an option I actually am pursuing. Jesus Christ is the only one who hasn't let me down. God has shown me love and mercy without fail; even in my arrogant pride He has never abandoned me. I want to dedicate my life to Christ, and God willing, I will serve him as a catholic nun one day.
The secular humanists are destroying the family. This is a complicated issue with no clear answer. It probably depends on the man, the woman, and their devotion to God's will.
Upon personal reflection, life as a nun is a better option. This is an option I actually am pursuing. Jesus Christ is the only one who hasn't let me down. God has shown me love and mercy without fail; even in my arrogant pride He has never abandoned me. I want to dedicate my life to Christ, and God willing, I will serve him as a catholic nun one day.
1
I grew up in Europe, where even in the 1950s and 1960s there was such a thing as a support system for parents. My own mother, a pharmacist, had 6 mos. paid leave, another 6 mos. of a half-time work schedule and then back to her full time work. She put her entire earnings into a live-out for all of us. I was now being loved by my mother, father and by my Nana. Not a bad deal! Then I went to university and got my degree. Coming to the US and working here was an adjustment, one that I made gladly. Got married and started grad school at night, with the full support of my new hubby. Climbed the corporate ladder for a few years and then baby came along. I had infant care all arranged, plans to go back to work. Except that every time I visited unannounced, the baby would be in a swing, with a bottle in his mouth. Not what I had envisioned, so with a heavy heart, I stayed at home for an interminable 22 months, nearly went mad with isolation, lack of adult interaction (not counting hubby) and boredom. Found a part-time professional position, and in due time full time work. Arranged our schedules so that someone would always be at home when the kid came from school, for activities, etc. Sunk my earnings into childcare and all kinds of support systems. Just like my mom. It was worth it. To those choosing to stay at home: be happy that you can and want to, no apologies needed. But know that you're privileged, not the norm. And not what the majority is facing.
32
"An analysis of exit polls by Kei Kawashima-Ginsberg of Tufts University reveals that millennial support for a white woman in 2016 was 10 percentage points lower than their vote for a black man in 2008."
He wasn't just any black man, nor was she just any white woman. Indeed she was Hillary Clinton who most patriots would vote against regardless of race, color, sex, religion or economic status.
He wasn't just any black man, nor was she just any white woman. Indeed she was Hillary Clinton who most patriots would vote against regardless of race, color, sex, religion or economic status.
9
Since you brought it up, she won.
Except that most patriots did not vote against her. People like you conveniently forget that she significantly won the popular vote.
5
I guess there are more traitors than patriots in the USA since more people voted FOR her than against her.
Just wonderful! All of the conclusions about why the Millennial's prefer a more traditional family relationship are based upon a group of questions, none of which asks the subjects WHY they want a more traditional family unit. I surmise that those questions weren't asked because the writers of the studies would rather posit why THEY thought these were the results. Why not ask the questions?
Could it be that these Millennial's have experienced significant problems with the egalitarian model? And why is the sample of people who have an egalitarian division of household duties so small? You want to know why they have this great sex? Ask them and then discuss what they say. It may be they aren't as tired as the women in couples where the wife does all the housework.
This opinion piece raises significantly more questions than it answers. I don't think any of the Millennial's want to go back to the days of Father Knows Best or the Donna Reed Show (Or Leave it to Beaver either) but you need to ask them why they think what they think.
I'll tell you this: Child care isn't the same as being raised by either of your parents, and is often cold and impersonal. The only situations that I see working well are when neither parent wants to be the CEO and just wants to live with their family as happily as they can.
Finally, is it possible that the majority of the change of opinions has to do with the economic devastation of working life we have seen in this century - yah think?
Could it be that these Millennial's have experienced significant problems with the egalitarian model? And why is the sample of people who have an egalitarian division of household duties so small? You want to know why they have this great sex? Ask them and then discuss what they say. It may be they aren't as tired as the women in couples where the wife does all the housework.
This opinion piece raises significantly more questions than it answers. I don't think any of the Millennial's want to go back to the days of Father Knows Best or the Donna Reed Show (Or Leave it to Beaver either) but you need to ask them why they think what they think.
I'll tell you this: Child care isn't the same as being raised by either of your parents, and is often cold and impersonal. The only situations that I see working well are when neither parent wants to be the CEO and just wants to live with their family as happily as they can.
Finally, is it possible that the majority of the change of opinions has to do with the economic devastation of working life we have seen in this century - yah think?
Many of the NYTimes have made my day! Go millennial go!
The arrangement in which one spouse works and the other stays home is NOT by nature an example of inequality.
It is rare nowadays for a woman to be forced to stay home. The whole premise of the article needs to be questioned.
It is rare nowadays for a woman to be forced to stay home. The whole premise of the article needs to be questioned.
9
Women, never sacrifice your income stream.
75
Ie don't get divorced.
3
Leroy, please explain your comment. Very strange. Are you trying to indicate that men are the breadwinners alone and women are at home?
If you have kids and your wife stayed home to care for them she earned half your pay. We have got to stop acting like taking care of the home, if that is what a partnership decided one can do, as being worth nothing. It's absolutely worth exactly the same amount as the person who works. Period .
If you have kids and your wife stayed home to care for them she earned half your pay. We have got to stop acting like taking care of the home, if that is what a partnership decided one can do, as being worth nothing. It's absolutely worth exactly the same amount as the person who works. Period .
Well, they won't get it. How are you going to put food on the table and afford childcare and healthcare? No. What they want is for their wives to work and take care of the children. What else is new?
Interesting that one of the premier scholars on marriage has a title like this for her contributions. Maybe someone else wrote the title.
How strange to see gender bias--whether intentional or not--in an article that is attempting to discuss an issue that faces both partners. I'd love a stay at home husband. That would mean I have zero money issues and it would mean I would be stay at home wife. And we don't have any kids.
Nonetheless, I wish we'd stop this banter about who should do what, who is responsible for what. In a partnership, which trumps work in my view, having a genuine discussion about family of origin borrowed values and working towards what is best for each of us as we maneuver life would be enriching.
I may have learned that "women do dishes" but I hate doing dishes. Besides I have a dishwasher at my house, my hubby and he's fine with it. I don't do the plants and yard because I have a brown thumb, not because I'm a women. I wish I was better at it but I must own up I haven't tried that hard because he's excellent at it. But I'm a mean vacummer!
Let's get real. Life is a challenge. Can't we try to make it just a little easier on everyone by honoring our gifts and talents, our strengths and limits? Just cuz she bears the baby doesn't guarantee she's the best nurturer as one example. These are human not gender issues and the sooner we look at them that way the better.
How strange to see gender bias--whether intentional or not--in an article that is attempting to discuss an issue that faces both partners. I'd love a stay at home husband. That would mean I have zero money issues and it would mean I would be stay at home wife. And we don't have any kids.
Nonetheless, I wish we'd stop this banter about who should do what, who is responsible for what. In a partnership, which trumps work in my view, having a genuine discussion about family of origin borrowed values and working towards what is best for each of us as we maneuver life would be enriching.
I may have learned that "women do dishes" but I hate doing dishes. Besides I have a dishwasher at my house, my hubby and he's fine with it. I don't do the plants and yard because I have a brown thumb, not because I'm a women. I wish I was better at it but I must own up I haven't tried that hard because he's excellent at it. But I'm a mean vacummer!
Let's get real. Life is a challenge. Can't we try to make it just a little easier on everyone by honoring our gifts and talents, our strengths and limits? Just cuz she bears the baby doesn't guarantee she's the best nurturer as one example. These are human not gender issues and the sooner we look at them that way the better.
12
All we need to build a brave new future, is septuagenarians collating "research" conducted using scarce/precious funding, to produce a high school level report, in 2016, on "what men want", millennial or otherwise.
Life is for the living, at each stage. Ms. Coontz, let me ask you - at your stage, well past your child-raising years I'll be bold enough to assume, what choice are you making? Will you go quietly into the sunset or resort to cannibalizing nascent life? Do we need to coin a term for reverse necromancy, to explain YOUR generation?
Life is for the living, at each stage. Ms. Coontz, let me ask you - at your stage, well past your child-raising years I'll be bold enough to assume, what choice are you making? Will you go quietly into the sunset or resort to cannibalizing nascent life? Do we need to coin a term for reverse necromancy, to explain YOUR generation?
6
Sumathi, your comment also shows something I felt from some millennials: resentment at the those who are older that they see as keeping their jobs, stealing their social security, not helping with mobility, etc. I think the author is raising an important issue, but it needs to be researched further. Just as you see life as something to be lived (no matter what) don't assume everybody older than you should go into the sunset to become your nurturing granny. There are women in their 50s and 60s who are smarter, more active, more thorough in their analysis and sexier too. Your ageism is showing as you complain about the author's ageism.
6
Raising my two young boys in Washington DC, as a married woman, who also worked part time, I often was asked, at social functions, if I worked.
Once, I overheard a woman, who was a stay at home Mom, raising 3 children,answer the question with this genius of a response. She said, "I work full time at home managing my investments". Bingo!
Once, I overheard a woman, who was a stay at home Mom, raising 3 children,answer the question with this genius of a response. She said, "I work full time at home managing my investments". Bingo!
28
How did the discussion get away from the point of view of the 'wives" in question ? What do these millenial women state that they want ? Are these "wives" or "mothers"? Is it about what they would want, or what they actually will do ?
How can the question be posed as a global one for that generation, without consideration to financial constraints ? This is a generation that is facing the highest student debt burden and the highest % of income spent on housing (in urban areas) compared to prior generations at the same age.
So.. a slice of the Millenials has a more promouced wish for the ability to have stay at home wives... with a dozen qualifiers and caveats.
Because now as in the past, we don't see a government role in childcare - and the private sector is not stepping up to the plate to serve those needs.
How can the question be posed as a global one for that generation, without consideration to financial constraints ? This is a generation that is facing the highest student debt burden and the highest % of income spent on housing (in urban areas) compared to prior generations at the same age.
So.. a slice of the Millenials has a more promouced wish for the ability to have stay at home wives... with a dozen qualifiers and caveats.
Because now as in the past, we don't see a government role in childcare - and the private sector is not stepping up to the plate to serve those needs.
I suspect that young male millennials are not "more traditional", but rather, having been significantly overtaken by females in so many areas of success -- college degrees, post-graduate degrees, jobs, tatoos, not living in their mother's basement, you name it -- I suspect the snowflake boys dream of having a female partner who will submit to them because... maybe because they have a (whispy) beard? It's all rather strange, but when one believes in "gender fluidity", what is not strange (or queer)?
11
My wife brilliantly labeled it as three things (either acting separately, or intersectionally): 1) Identity crisis for men who don't follow grandpa's or pa's roles, nor want to - but romanticize traditional marriages because male roles were clear, simple and dominant. 2) Men feeling emasculated by achieving or over achieving women, and hence try to over compensate for it by pursuing macho roles or/and macho demands. 3) Society itself regressing and taking these men backward in their attitudes. Look who got elected, and there were male fools who said that they were either going to vote for Bernie or Donald, not Hillary. How do you go from Bernie to Donald? How do you go from Bernie to Hillary (a very conservative woman. Look who she married, stayed married to and worked for politically). If feminism itself is being attacked by these millennials, then how are we going to get to egalitarian relationships (including in marriage or living-together)?
2
Perhaps a more important question to address is whether or not young women feel they have the same freedoms to pursue fulfilling professional lives as men do. I don't ask this question because I think know the answer--I truly don't.
It is just my observation, over many years of running companies in Silicon Valley, that women often have different priorities when it comes to the mix of professional advancement and child rearing. At my work, I have no set working hours, no fixed amount of time off for illness, vacation or childcare responsibilities. I encourage people to go home if they're needed (like at dinner) and I try to be as flexible as possible. Guess what? The women in general are much better about finding the balance than the men. (I even had one employee call to tell me he'd be a little late for a meeting because his wife just had a miscarriage! I told him he was no longer invited to the meeting.)
I have no idea what cultural and/or biological differences may be in play, but I think the larger question is whether or not women feel they have the same opportunities as men. I suspect many don't.
It is just my observation, over many years of running companies in Silicon Valley, that women often have different priorities when it comes to the mix of professional advancement and child rearing. At my work, I have no set working hours, no fixed amount of time off for illness, vacation or childcare responsibilities. I encourage people to go home if they're needed (like at dinner) and I try to be as flexible as possible. Guess what? The women in general are much better about finding the balance than the men. (I even had one employee call to tell me he'd be a little late for a meeting because his wife just had a miscarriage! I told him he was no longer invited to the meeting.)
I have no idea what cultural and/or biological differences may be in play, but I think the larger question is whether or not women feel they have the same opportunities as men. I suspect many don't.
28
Stats are stats - shows a trend which can be justified by 'numbers'! No matter. But how many millennial men related to Trump as a 'man' for the highest Office in the land? Hillary lost because millennial men are more comfortable with a woman's place is in the kitchen baking cookies, then we should thank these men for the dire straits are Country is in.
An artist friend of mine lives in Italy. She gets affordable child care for her 2 children. Not only is it affordable but it is nurturing.
If the US could provide such services, everyone's life would change for the better. Unfortunately, we have sections of the society hell bent on keeping women in their places. Why do they get their misogynistic ways to stay....Complying co - dependents.
If the US could provide such services, everyone's life would change for the better. Unfortunately, we have sections of the society hell bent on keeping women in their places. Why do they get their misogynistic ways to stay....Complying co - dependents.
Liberal institutions such as the New York Times celebrate the claims made by transgender activists, that we all have an innate "gender identity" that makes us want to act out stereotypical gender roles. in fact, these claims are held to be so sacred that biology is said to not matter to one's classification as a man or a woman. The New York Times repeatedly has supported those claims, with breathless stories about men who just knew that they were women because they felt like one inside and wanted to wear dresses and nail polish. You
can't have it both ways. You can't uphold current transgender claims and simultaneously lament that gender roles are held by young people to be real. This is why radical feminists like Germaine Greer and Sheila Jeffreys have long sounded the alarm about the rise of transgenderism. It celebrates traditional sex roles, also known as sexism.
can't have it both ways. You can't uphold current transgender claims and simultaneously lament that gender roles are held by young people to be real. This is why radical feminists like Germaine Greer and Sheila Jeffreys have long sounded the alarm about the rise of transgenderism. It celebrates traditional sex roles, also known as sexism.
If you are out of the work force for any length of time, your value in the marketplace for labor plummets. Your college degree has significant value for about a decade; then you are used goods and if you are not already employed there are at least ten years worth of people younger than you willing to work for less than you.
Excellent experience, no matter how excellent, once it is several years old is already out of date. You are considered rusty and passed over. The problem with staying home with the kids for a few years is that you never can make up the difference in salary and promotions you would have had staying in the work force, and the level of company who will hire you will be lower, or the job will be. This is something that 18-25 year olds don't know.
Excellent experience, no matter how excellent, once it is several years old is already out of date. You are considered rusty and passed over. The problem with staying home with the kids for a few years is that you never can make up the difference in salary and promotions you would have had staying in the work force, and the level of company who will hire you will be lower, or the job will be. This is something that 18-25 year olds don't know.
41
Sad, but true!
Think carefully young mothers and future mothers-to-be. Do you think your children will thank you more if you “stay home” with them when they are little (and barely remember it), or if they don’t have to take you in in your senior years because you don’t have sufficient retirement and social security income to take care of yourself? Unless you are independently wealthy, those years you are not paying into your future financial security may be devastating in the long run. Take care of yourselves.
54
Wealth is built over time and is more likely to happen when a couple stays together.
It's not a matter of having your children remember, it's a matter of providing them the loving guidance of a parent.
In terms of taking in an elderly parent, being from an eastern European background, I grew up in a household with loving grandparents present which I do remember.
You've changed family into an equation. And by the way, we've moved from the bottom 20% to the top 10% in terms of yearly income and assets. At this time I am paying for my mother to live in an assisted living facility rather than a nursing home. Apparently doing something like that is beyond your comprehension.
In terms of taking in an elderly parent, being from an eastern European background, I grew up in a household with loving grandparents present which I do remember.
You've changed family into an equation. And by the way, we've moved from the bottom 20% to the top 10% in terms of yearly income and assets. At this time I am paying for my mother to live in an assisted living facility rather than a nursing home. Apparently doing something like that is beyond your comprehension.
1
In my marriage our argument was who works harder. My husband did not cook or clean. I worked full-time outside the home. He worked full-time either in our house or at an office. I'm a baby boomer. We had a couple kids to raise. Did I feel put upon? Yes. Especially on Sunday when I was ironing his shirts for the week, and he was on the couch watching golf. Was it hard on my marriage? Absolutely. We got divorced.
The happiest couples I saw shared the cooking, cleaning, and child care.
The happiest couples I saw shared the cooking, cleaning, and child care.
22
Why did you iron the shirts?!
1
Inasmuch as women defiantly assert their freedom from men's expectations and their determination to live their own vibrant, independent lives, one has to wonder why the Times is still printing this sort of resentment-stoking story.
Don't want to be a stay-at-home wife? Then don't be one. And don't act peculiarly afflicted if someone else has a different view.
Don't want to be a stay-at-home wife? Then don't be one. And don't act peculiarly afflicted if someone else has a different view.
11
Nothing new here: Natural order for at least the last 10,000 years, e.g., NYT pictures and stories coming out of African famine--men off doing the usual business of killing each other, women desperately struggling to nurture their children as best they can.
14
"Egalitarian family arrangements" is a phrase utterly irrelevant to the vast majority of working families. Similarly, the headline, regarding "stay-at-home-wives" illustrates the author's (perhaps editor's) perspective regarding the most important person to maintain a stable, safe family shelter. Do you, author, consider stay-at-home spouses inferior?
6
Stop having children. As for the NYT, let's start having a discussion about overpopulation (you know, one the elephants in the room next to carbon).
22
Let's first discuss the social security policies that encourage irresponsible procreation at the expense of both child and society.
2
Considering it's one of the prime info clearinghouses re climate change, the NYT is relentlessly and dishearteningly pro breeder. Talk about cognitive dissonance.
1
I notice a number of problems with data-driven journalism in general and this essay in particular.
1) This data set, while it may be convenient, is remarkably inappropriate. High Schoolers live in a closed off world of their own. The boys have no way to know what it's like to deal with a wife, neither boys nor girls have any real clue about work and money and mortgages and leaky roofs, etc and they all tend to base their understanding of the world on TV and what they see on the internet and social media.
2) To be a stay-at-home housewife is a luxury available only to a tiny sub-set of the populace. To ask boys if they want one of those isn't realistic. Fantasy questions get fantasy answers. It's not really data.
3) To equate support for Hillary with support for gender equality is specious. Mrs. Clinton is a fully formed human being, not just a female in a pants-suit. There are many things to like or dislike about her that have nothing to do with her gender. She has every right to be judged on her merits and not her gender.
1) This data set, while it may be convenient, is remarkably inappropriate. High Schoolers live in a closed off world of their own. The boys have no way to know what it's like to deal with a wife, neither boys nor girls have any real clue about work and money and mortgages and leaky roofs, etc and they all tend to base their understanding of the world on TV and what they see on the internet and social media.
2) To be a stay-at-home housewife is a luxury available only to a tiny sub-set of the populace. To ask boys if they want one of those isn't realistic. Fantasy questions get fantasy answers. It's not really data.
3) To equate support for Hillary with support for gender equality is specious. Mrs. Clinton is a fully formed human being, not just a female in a pants-suit. There are many things to like or dislike about her that have nothing to do with her gender. She has every right to be judged on her merits and not her gender.
6
Coontz's counterpart at the University of Leuven contradicts her in any case, saying that the data is just not there to illustrate European millennials' evolving values. I clicked on the italicized link in the article.
I'm a millennial and this is great news! Hopefully we can look forward to a more traditional society, where children are nurtured and loved by stay-at-home mothers, the new nationalism provides well-paying jobs for breadwinners, traditional institutions such as the church and the police are respected and honored for the good work they do in our society, patriotism becomes a good word again, the reality-denying media and academy are gradually pushed to obsolescence, and degeneracy becomes an aberration rather than the norm. Oh! Maybe with all these moms at home, homeschooling will take off too--and then people will remember that there is value in the liberal arts and western culture, family, tradition, and morality! Good work millennials! This world will look so much better with us in charge! Onward!
8
Amen !!
1
The milenials I know want stay at home husbands-- maybe.. children are expensive-- they found out.
BTW no need for a woman who has a child to marry anymore... and at least some millennials I know have gone that route and a few of the baby boomers as well but at a greater age.
Are mn really necessary> I swear NYTimes between "how to choose wine" cluttering up my computer and this.. is the NyTimes necessary??!!
BTW Hillary is so yesterday.. What has she done since the ele tion? NOTHING except prob go to a party or two.. or give a speech where she is paid 1/4 million. She can't act and well maybe she can sing!!;-D
BTW no need for a woman who has a child to marry anymore... and at least some millennials I know have gone that route and a few of the baby boomers as well but at a greater age.
Are mn really necessary> I swear NYTimes between "how to choose wine" cluttering up my computer and this.. is the NyTimes necessary??!!
BTW Hillary is so yesterday.. What has she done since the ele tion? NOTHING except prob go to a party or two.. or give a speech where she is paid 1/4 million. She can't act and well maybe she can sing!!;-D
3
This gets the wrong end of the stick.
The issue now is not whether women are as able as men. Of course we are .
The issue now is whether two full time breadwinners is good for anyone when raising a family.
Bad for kids and puts huge pressure on both parents. Many kids now say they wish they could afford either a house husband or a house wife. Whichever.
The issue now is not whether women are as able as men. Of course we are .
The issue now is whether two full time breadwinners is good for anyone when raising a family.
Bad for kids and puts huge pressure on both parents. Many kids now say they wish they could afford either a house husband or a house wife. Whichever.
5
I like this piece. It's the comments section that bothers me. There seems to be a lot of defensiveness from stay at home moms and their advocates, and a lot of attacks on feminism. First, I don't think any self-respecting third-wave feminist would ever disparage another woman's choice to stay home or work. Second, I don't think anyone who knows anything about intersectionality (or socioeconomics) would deny that some families, regardless of the number of adults present, do not have a choice in whether they work or not. The key word here is choice. That's why research in attitudinal changes is important: cultural devaluing of non-traditional roles and responsibilities makes them less legible as a choice. And if choices are less legible for those who have the economic security to make them, they are nearly non-existent for those who do not.
112
Speaking of "choice", a record number of Americans do not work full time. Apparently, they made this choice in obama's economy.
Time-as-currency networks afford more choice for family members and helps re-define work in the process. Individual's gifts and talents are valued beyond the labeling of the limited, capitalist marketplace. When communities start time-banks or time-exchanges, it's also a way to build community support and infrastructure for the care-giving economy in a cooperative way from the ground up. This is imperative in the face of continued national policies and capitalism that concurrenly diminish this social cohesion of our real 'domestic agenda', 'attitudinally', as you suggest, not to mention continue to hasten the earning disparity for the majority.
I'm sorry, but the women who elect to stay home, who have no inheritance safely growing in some wise investments, are making themselves fiscally vulnerable. It may all feel hunky-dory while your kids are young, but if you don't have the Cojonese to get out their make serious bank when you're kids are gone, you may wind up alone, eating dog food in a trailer park.
The researchers are asking the wrong questions. It's not helpful to ask someone whose only concept of the mid-late 20th century archetype of a family/community comes from regurgitated 2nd hand nostalgia whether they aspire to that model. So- called millennials did not grow up with 1950s families. They grew up with working mothers, working fathers, 4 or more grandparents, step families, mobility, recession. When will we stop comparing everything to the lost childhood of the baby boom generation?
8
The ideal of the beautiful family with the option to have one parent stay home is very tempting (although I don't love the "men make the major decisions" part, which always seems to go with such arrangements). However, what about families that NEED two incomes to survive? And what about marriages torn by acrimony, divorce, and abuse? Conclusions: 1) We need and deserve as Americans to have financial support for parenthood. 2) Women: unless your marriage is rock-solid and you have a LOT of life insurance, you might want to rethink hopping out of the workforce and letting your skills age.
11
Why should we encourage human parenthood in the face of an overpopulation crisis and dwindling resources??? I'd rather help save an elephant, rhino or dolphin.
We need to encourage, champion, reward and normalize childfreedom, for the sake of all species.
We need to encourage, champion, reward and normalize childfreedom, for the sake of all species.
I'm a single mother and I run my own business, which has me working out of the house only on weekends. This year, due to some fateful turn of events, I'm homeschooling my 11yo son ae it works perfectly with my schedule. It is a work-life balance beyond my wildest imagination. For the first time ever, I get to actually see my kid and teach him fascinating concepts and do mind-blowing projects with him, while also working enough hours to count for full time. The problem? The income will never cover our expenses even during very successful months, because working independently leaves me with overheads of insurance and all sorts of expenses that my previous employment covered. It just doesn't feed us. Back to school he goes as I take on a second job.
My son will probably grow up to count among those men who will say things as wanting a stay-at-home-wife, because he got a taste for the paradise of having a present mother who will learn with him. Not because there is doubt that women can find a middle way between work and family; but because the lesson for us is that the American economic miser will not allow for halfway. This subject isn't gender politics; it is money talking.
My son will probably grow up to count among those men who will say things as wanting a stay-at-home-wife, because he got a taste for the paradise of having a present mother who will learn with him. Not because there is doubt that women can find a middle way between work and family; but because the lesson for us is that the American economic miser will not allow for halfway. This subject isn't gender politics; it is money talking.
5
I figured out long time ago that the game is rigged for women. The only way out (i.e career), is by the time you make kids to make enough money to be able to afford a nanny and a housekeeper. Otherwise, no matter what your education is, you become that nanny and that housekeeper. As someone who loved STEM and hated art and housework with passion, I am so happy that I can send my kids to excellent pre-schools.
10
If 50 percent of all marriages end in divorce, and if a large percentage of those occur during child-rearing years, then women had better be prepared to both support and care for themselves and their children. Because all too often, the fathers don't -- they scamper. And then there's the fact that at least 40% of all births today are to unmarried women -- and perhaps even more of these fathers are not involved in caring for their children, much less supporting them. I remember as a single hard working woman, I used to dream about having a "stay at home" wife; all the women I worked with had similar dreams. What does that say about that role? And then, through divorce, I became a single working mother when my daughter was quite young. So I did it all. And it was tough, even though I just had one child. But at least I was prepared and able to shoulder the responsibilities.
6
Yet another reason why the US is not the future of anything.
18
Hope these Millennial men find lucrative, high-paying work so that these desires can be met!
And what do millennial women want?
10
Thank goodness I'm single. Stay home, wash dishes and basically be a live-in maid? Over my dead body!
12
And you aren't doing that now ?
If you look at the graph of men's attitudes, it pretty closely follows the financial fortunes of the country as a whole. When we're fat, dumb, and happy, everybody pulls for everybody else. When times are hard, we look to restrict the ability of others to complete against us. And after all, despite their better education and social skills, aren't they really happier at home doing the laundry?
5
Neither millennials or GEN-X 'S can possibly afford a stay-at-home husband or wife. So exactly what income status are you writing?
I was an early '"boomer'" work ring
I was an early '"boomer'" work ring
5
And now, for the ball scores.................
I'm old, really old, but from what I can see, that generation would want a stay-at-home so he can have someone wash his black t-shit, his black cut-offs, his socks (maybe, if he wears any) and carry his skatreboard, and bring him his phone. In the area that I live in, I would be surprised if "he" has actually attracted a mate given "his" propensity to hang in the park with his fellow unemployed, probably because a lot of his generation grew up on Duck dynasty and similar tv fare, was likely one of the 75% who finished HS but couldn't stand the idea of going to college because it interefered with leisure and his trip to the "vape" shop.
The problem with polls etc is that they often miss the real towns where there are real people who never seem to match the expected outcomes of such polls. The government says unemployment is 4.6 or so but here in my town you couldn't prove that io save your life. My guess is that it is north of 10%. Stay- at- home is easy under those circumatances.
I'm old, really old, but from what I can see, that generation would want a stay-at-home so he can have someone wash his black t-shit, his black cut-offs, his socks (maybe, if he wears any) and carry his skatreboard, and bring him his phone. In the area that I live in, I would be surprised if "he" has actually attracted a mate given "his" propensity to hang in the park with his fellow unemployed, probably because a lot of his generation grew up on Duck dynasty and similar tv fare, was likely one of the 75% who finished HS but couldn't stand the idea of going to college because it interefered with leisure and his trip to the "vape" shop.
The problem with polls etc is that they often miss the real towns where there are real people who never seem to match the expected outcomes of such polls. The government says unemployment is 4.6 or so but here in my town you couldn't prove that io save your life. My guess is that it is north of 10%. Stay- at- home is easy under those circumatances.
So odd that Stephanie Coontz presumes a stay at home mom to be unequal to a working husband. As if being a stay at home mom is a degrading existence beneath the modern human. Or that slaving at a 8-6 M-F job plus commute is the pinnacle of achievement.
This presentation reminds me of the recently abandoned feminist schtick that attacked Middle Eastern women for willingly wearing burkas. They rejected the entire presentation and the schtick was dropped. I wonder how many times stay at home moms have to be insulted by authors such as this before we get the same result.
This comment probably won't even be approved by the NYT for publication.
This presentation reminds me of the recently abandoned feminist schtick that attacked Middle Eastern women for willingly wearing burkas. They rejected the entire presentation and the schtick was dropped. I wonder how many times stay at home moms have to be insulted by authors such as this before we get the same result.
This comment probably won't even be approved by the NYT for publication.
8
What isn't odd is the number of people with poor reading comprehension based on our generally inept educational system (all due respect to the hard work still put into it). Please feel free to quote or indicate where you see the author denigrating a stay at home mom in this piece. As far as I can see it simply is talking about young people (like myself as I am within this range) not being quite as egalitarian, and for the life of me cannot find anything that says that people with the ability and desire to stay at home is anything less than working, so please stop bringing your preconcieved notions into something and just read next time.
10
The concern is probably that stay-at-home moms accrue and retain virtually zero economic value in a society where women and children are losers when dad decides to run off with some younger model and abandon the family as someone pointed out in an earlier comment. It happens all too often now. As my own father remarked to our dismay when I asked him why he did it -- upon leaving my stay-at-home mom at age 69, his response was: "everybody is doing it now." "Great dad," I thought; "you've just turned your traditional-minded wife and daughters into hardcore feminists." It's the failure of our society. The failure of the patriarchy. Smart women go out and work because they can't depend on flippant men to stick around. Just like the precedent set by our society as a whole -- we elect presidents with cheating, dysfunctional marriages, our corporations treat people like they are disposable. We are living in a crumbling "throwaway" culture where anything and everything is replaceable. There seems to be no shame any longer. It's unfortunate.
"supposed to be a generation ... in favor of gender equality."
The first sentence - with the clear implication that stay at home moms are "unequal" to men working outside the home. It doesn't get much clearer than that. But hey, these are not the droids you are looking for. There are no artificial islands here. Russia? Who is Russia?
The first sentence - with the clear implication that stay at home moms are "unequal" to men working outside the home. It doesn't get much clearer than that. But hey, these are not the droids you are looking for. There are no artificial islands here. Russia? Who is Russia?
"Tellingly, support for gender equality has continued to rise among all age groups in Europe, where substantial public investments in affordable, high-quality child care and paid leave for fathers and mothers are the norm.”
Until Angela Merkle invited Syrian refugees to Europe, the European countries strictly limited who could move in. It is impossible for a government to afford high-quality day care and paid parental leave for all residents, if anyone can move into a country.
Whenever my local governments start talking about universal day care or smaller elementary school classes, they talk like it will apply to everyone. Then they do the numbers, and figure out that we cannot afford to help everyone. In the end, the children who get to attend the free high quality day care and the small elementary school classes are those from the poorest families, and these include many illegal immigrants. When a region has an endless number of illegal immigrants (most of whom have very large families), there is not enough tax money to provide services for everyone.
We have to enforce our immigration laws before our government can offer such services.
Until Angela Merkle invited Syrian refugees to Europe, the European countries strictly limited who could move in. It is impossible for a government to afford high-quality day care and paid parental leave for all residents, if anyone can move into a country.
Whenever my local governments start talking about universal day care or smaller elementary school classes, they talk like it will apply to everyone. Then they do the numbers, and figure out that we cannot afford to help everyone. In the end, the children who get to attend the free high quality day care and the small elementary school classes are those from the poorest families, and these include many illegal immigrants. When a region has an endless number of illegal immigrants (most of whom have very large families), there is not enough tax money to provide services for everyone.
We have to enforce our immigration laws before our government can offer such services.
5
THANK YOU. You are 100% correct.
You cannot have lush social benefits or health care, and have unlimited illegal immigration and open borders. The left is cutting their own throats on these issues, because they cancel each other out.
You cannot have lush social benefits or health care, and have unlimited illegal immigration and open borders. The left is cutting their own throats on these issues, because they cancel each other out.
1
But without all those illegal immigrants, who will take care of working parents' children?
2
In response to What ya say?
I suppose you're being funny since we all know that many American citizens and legal residents are looking for work and make excellent nannies.
I suppose you're being funny since we all know that many American citizens and legal residents are looking for work and make excellent nannies.
What a loaded question: The man is the "achiever" and the woman only "takes care of home and family." A woman couldn't "achieve" anything by staying home, could she? Wow! -- that reveals the questioner's contempt for the value of a woman who stays home to care for her family, doesn't it?
Many (probably most) millennial men grew up with parents who both worked outside the home. Maybe the growing disagreement with that chauvinistic premise isn't a result of a growing attitude of gender inequality. Maybe it's due to the fact that, based on their own childhood experience, millennial men want to give their children the thing they longed for but never had: A mother who didn't have to leave them at daycare for 10 hours a day, who was down the hall and not across town or in another city, who didn't have to take them to school even when they were sick because she couldn't get time off from work.
A couple must either have more money than most, or be willing to sacrifice more than most, in order to be able to live on only one income. Sometimes one of the incomes in two-income families goes almost entirely toward paying for daycare; what's the point?
Many stay-at-home mothers go on to have careers after their children have become mature enough to care for themselves. A woman can get a good 20 - 25 years of work in if she starts working at age 40. Childhood is short; money-making is relentless.
Many (probably most) millennial men grew up with parents who both worked outside the home. Maybe the growing disagreement with that chauvinistic premise isn't a result of a growing attitude of gender inequality. Maybe it's due to the fact that, based on their own childhood experience, millennial men want to give their children the thing they longed for but never had: A mother who didn't have to leave them at daycare for 10 hours a day, who was down the hall and not across town or in another city, who didn't have to take them to school even when they were sick because she couldn't get time off from work.
A couple must either have more money than most, or be willing to sacrifice more than most, in order to be able to live on only one income. Sometimes one of the incomes in two-income families goes almost entirely toward paying for daycare; what's the point?
Many stay-at-home mothers go on to have careers after their children have become mature enough to care for themselves. A woman can get a good 20 - 25 years of work in if she starts working at age 40. Childhood is short; money-making is relentless.
My kids are now adults, & I have a word of warning to all the idealistic women who want to be stay-at-home moms.
I was once you. I too only took into account childcare costs *at the time* & I also acted as though my salary had to pay for childcare, not *our* salary. So at the time, I made the decision to abandon my career & also put a huge dent into my future earnings & savings.
It didn't seem so at the time. It seemed I was doing what was best for the kids, myself & our family. Because you have relatively no life experience, you really think you are going to be able to remove yourself from a career for 10-15 years, then hop back on when you feel like it. It doesn't work like that. The world moves on. When you are ready to work again, at, say, 40, ageism rears its ugly head, & your lack of experience is a real deficit. You find yourself working for someone younger than you, you have far less earning power than you could have, & your career may well be in shambles. And our culture worships youth. This is true in the arts, in science, in business--nearly everywhere.
Worse, you put yourself into a terrible power imbalance at home. In most marriages, that unequal balance causes much festering misery & I've seen countless powerless women stay in miserable marriages b/c of economics.
Stay home for 1-5 years if you must. While at home, do not abandon your career; keep it going part time or casually. Then go back to work. You will not regret it & your kids will be fine.
I was once you. I too only took into account childcare costs *at the time* & I also acted as though my salary had to pay for childcare, not *our* salary. So at the time, I made the decision to abandon my career & also put a huge dent into my future earnings & savings.
It didn't seem so at the time. It seemed I was doing what was best for the kids, myself & our family. Because you have relatively no life experience, you really think you are going to be able to remove yourself from a career for 10-15 years, then hop back on when you feel like it. It doesn't work like that. The world moves on. When you are ready to work again, at, say, 40, ageism rears its ugly head, & your lack of experience is a real deficit. You find yourself working for someone younger than you, you have far less earning power than you could have, & your career may well be in shambles. And our culture worships youth. This is true in the arts, in science, in business--nearly everywhere.
Worse, you put yourself into a terrible power imbalance at home. In most marriages, that unequal balance causes much festering misery & I've seen countless powerless women stay in miserable marriages b/c of economics.
Stay home for 1-5 years if you must. While at home, do not abandon your career; keep it going part time or casually. Then go back to work. You will not regret it & your kids will be fine.
70
In a way, I agree. And unless you have 4-5 children, which most middle class families DO NOT....15 years at home is very long time. Teenagers don't need a mom at home 24/7.
BUT....you and other feminists are assuming if you work like a tireless dog for all that time and leave your children in day care or with a nanny....your career will be boffo.
There is no guarantee of THAT either. My husband did not take off for children; he worked like a dog including overtime with no pay (as he was a "manager") for 22 years at Fortune 500 corporation, only to get laid off at 47. The company did not care about his years of loyalty nor thousands of hours of overtime! He was out of work for a year. And he lost his pension, his retirement savings (we had to use it, to live!) and his six weeks of accumulated vacation time and other benefits. He had to start ALL OVER again at almost 50....only to face another lay off and yup, the same deal. Start all over again.
Unless you are in an absolutely gold plated job -- a doctor, perhaps -- there is no guarantee AT ALL that staying in your career (vs. staying home with kids) will automatically mean you have a job for life, and no setbacks. The agism you describe will sneak up and clobber you, whether you take off time or not -- and the chances you will end up, in your 50s, working for a 24 year old Millennial wunderkind is still very, very real.
BUT....you and other feminists are assuming if you work like a tireless dog for all that time and leave your children in day care or with a nanny....your career will be boffo.
There is no guarantee of THAT either. My husband did not take off for children; he worked like a dog including overtime with no pay (as he was a "manager") for 22 years at Fortune 500 corporation, only to get laid off at 47. The company did not care about his years of loyalty nor thousands of hours of overtime! He was out of work for a year. And he lost his pension, his retirement savings (we had to use it, to live!) and his six weeks of accumulated vacation time and other benefits. He had to start ALL OVER again at almost 50....only to face another lay off and yup, the same deal. Start all over again.
Unless you are in an absolutely gold plated job -- a doctor, perhaps -- there is no guarantee AT ALL that staying in your career (vs. staying home with kids) will automatically mean you have a job for life, and no setbacks. The agism you describe will sneak up and clobber you, whether you take off time or not -- and the chances you will end up, in your 50s, working for a 24 year old Millennial wunderkind is still very, very real.
1
Nobody "has" to use retirement savings to live. Thats a cop out and now you two will be begging from we the prudent in your old age.
Why couldnt you each get fast food or Walmart jobs on opposite shifts, or take in lodgers, or mow lawns or the many other things people do to survive?
Why couldnt you each get fast food or Walmart jobs on opposite shifts, or take in lodgers, or mow lawns or the many other things people do to survive?
1
Isn't a core problem that we focus on equality vs comparability? Since childbearing & nursing are female as well as time for usually probable greater nurturing instinct, jobs (as well as divorce settlements) need to reflect that. 1986- Sylvia Ann Hewlett wrote book "The Myth of Women's Liberation in America" detailing U.S. lagging Europe re quality childcare & other family-friendly work policies. She later established the Nat'l Parenting Assn. I have 3 sons, 2 stepsons, & 11 grandkids, hence am surely gender-neutral as I think most humans are. Yet U.S. continues to have very paternalistic society. In Family Courts the Leadership Council reports over 58,000 cases (of 1M divorces/yr) where abuser (usually dad) gets custody or unsupervised visits often because mom & kids are assumed to be lying, judges, etc. not given enough training re DV, ETC. Activists (incl. male) have been trying to expose this 20+ yrs- bill finally now before Congress re Safety 1st for kids. There have been 8 documentaries, ETC. re this! Core problem- legal SYSTEM is Who CAN Win Vs What Fair, no matter topic, esp. if power imbalance, worst when hurts kids (ALL of whom MOSTLY learn what they live). Shouldn't theme re all we do (business incl. = pay for =work, education, health care esp. noting stress causes lots dysfunction AND very costly in lots ways for society) be-"How kids turn out everywhere determines EVERYTHING! How could it not?" Statistics can be helpful (I taught them) but also misleading.
I'm a working mom and wife. Reading this article made so many thoughts go through my head, pro and con. I truly believe that every family should do what is best for their situation - whether that means mom works, dad works, both work or neither work. I do think we need to be careful about idealizing the man/achiever, woman/home dynamic. It looks good on paper, it's not always so good in real life.
8
Why not ask what millenial women want? They may not want to marry at all.
20
Sad. You will never find happiness in a cubicle and empty bed and solo dinner table.
If both parents work and have children, they live with a constant scramble of being forced to choose between work and family. School life is still predicated by the assumption that there is a parent available for pickup with school half-days, last minute snow days, sick children or after school activities with no option for being late. Women, particularly, are considered nonprofessional and not serious about their work no matter how many extra hours they squeeze in--because at times they must leave to pick up children.
And, unless you are paid well, childcare can take most of one parent's salary.
Nothing like feeling you are shortchanging both roles in your life to wear you down.
And, unless you are paid well, childcare can take most of one parent's salary.
Nothing like feeling you are shortchanging both roles in your life to wear you down.
17
The reality is, most of the stay at home wives I know are miserable -- particular the ones without kids. They're bored, they're obsessive, they're prone to hypochondria. Three of my closes girlfriends stopped working when they got married, but did not have children, and they went from being interesting, relatively happy women to women who could not get their lives together. One tried Italian lessons and ukulele and yoga and cooking and tennis -- and at the end of the day did not succeed at any of it and when her husband got laid off realized they were massively in debt and she had wasted years of her life. She also now HATES her husband, because she was so invested in his career.
My advice (as a very happily married working mom): Just get a cleaning lady and order decent food from seamless and you don't need a stay at home wife. Everybody wins.
My advice (as a very happily married working mom): Just get a cleaning lady and order decent food from seamless and you don't need a stay at home wife. Everybody wins.
14
Do women want Millenial men?
Great discussion and nice cartoon - except that it is relevant to less than 1/2 of American households.
In the majority of American households, there is no such choice. Those households have a single adult. So nothing to share, and no one to blame.
In the majority of American households, there is no such choice. Those households have a single adult. So nothing to share, and no one to blame.
In 1973 I got married. My husband was a lawyer, and in the late 70's and mid-80's, when I was having our 4 kids, we agreed that I be a stay at home mom. During this time, I also did endless volunteer work and went back to school and finished up my undergraduate work, after which I got a master's degree and went to work full time, but after 25 years of marriage, I also got divorced, and now, at age 67, facing retirement, thanks in part to all those years of not working and neither contributing to SS nor a 401K, I have very little money to live on. I loved the time I spent with my kids when they were young, but if I had it to do over, I'd work at some part time job just to not have all those years of zeros on my SS account.
I grew up in a traditional family scenario. My mother stayed at home while my dad worked. He didn't take much interest in the kids until we were older, and then only to go out fishing on the weekend, or to discipline us. My wife's upbringing was similar.
When we were planning to have children, we knew that was not how we wanted to raise our children. I wanted to be more involved than my dad was and be an equal partner. We are solidly middle class and not by any means well-off. Since her salary was quite a bit higher than mine, I quit my job. While I know she would like to spend more time with him, she is thrilled that he gets to spend a lot of quality time with Daddy. I'm more than happy to be the one to play and teach and care for our little one during the day. And at night, when my wife comes home, I can continue that care. I know she's tired from her long day and I do my best to help her have relaxing time with him. Its the least I can do after 9 months of pregnancy, and I am forming a great relationship with our son. I feel sorry for dads who miss out on changing diapers, feeding, bath time, play time and shopping for baby clothes due to their out-dated traditional gender roles.
When we were planning to have children, we knew that was not how we wanted to raise our children. I wanted to be more involved than my dad was and be an equal partner. We are solidly middle class and not by any means well-off. Since her salary was quite a bit higher than mine, I quit my job. While I know she would like to spend more time with him, she is thrilled that he gets to spend a lot of quality time with Daddy. I'm more than happy to be the one to play and teach and care for our little one during the day. And at night, when my wife comes home, I can continue that care. I know she's tired from her long day and I do my best to help her have relaxing time with him. Its the least I can do after 9 months of pregnancy, and I am forming a great relationship with our son. I feel sorry for dads who miss out on changing diapers, feeding, bath time, play time and shopping for baby clothes due to their out-dated traditional gender roles.
Do Millennial Men Want Stay-at-Home Wives? I think everyone wants a stay-at-home wife! To many people, a wife is synonymous with child care-taker, personal chef, and maid. That's what my mother was to 5 children. I work full time and make more than my husband. I often joke about needing a stay-at-home wife. Maybe then I could have some home-cooked meals.
Tellingly, support for gender equality has continued to rise among all age groups in Europe, where substantial public investments in affordable, high-quality child care and paid leave for fathers and mothers are the norm.
This is the key. As long as all of this will weigh on both partners in a marriage. it is clear that the Millennial Males prefer for the Millennial females to pick up the slack.
We need 100% health care, 100% child care, and 100% very generous maternity leave in the US. Until we get that we will have have unhappy men and unhappy women, period.
This is the key. As long as all of this will weigh on both partners in a marriage. it is clear that the Millennial Males prefer for the Millennial females to pick up the slack.
We need 100% health care, 100% child care, and 100% very generous maternity leave in the US. Until we get that we will have have unhappy men and unhappy women, period.
I wish we could stop making this about men vs women: what men want, what women want... what do PEOPLE want? What do families want? What do we want our home lives to look like, our communities? Millennial PEOPLE struggle with the same challenges every generation has had, with some adjustments, of course, for the specifics of the era we are in.
8
"I wish we could stop making this about men vs. women:"
You'd put a lot of OP-ED writers and liberal arts professors out on the street.
You'd put a lot of OP-ED writers and liberal arts professors out on the street.
I've been waiting for decades to meet a real feminist. I think they're like unicorns.
5
That's because you live in Salt Lake City.
2
Hilary is married to a man with a history of "disrespecting women"....
1
The issue, I'm tired of people missing, is whether you yourself have acted that way if you are president, which 45 has to an embarrassing degree. Just being married to someone who did some of that isn't the same thing. It's apples to oranges. But at the same time I don't think the article should have brought up gender perceptions of Hillary given the really, really complex baggage the Clintons carry.
I think that ALL men (and some women) want stay-at-home spouses who do all the home's chores, take care of the children, handle the financials, and have a hot meal ready at 6 pm when they come home. It's been that way for every couple I have ever talked to over the years - age is no barrier to this sexist attitude.
I'm 62, have worked part time as a parent, and full time as a parent. Neither amount of hours lessened my home work schedule, the 'second shift'. I fought the battle for sharing the home work with a husband, same age, who did not think he needed to put in his share of time on the chores, the child care, the bills, etc. and who felt entitled to keep money out of his check for his own entertainment on any evening he felt he wanted to stop at a bar. After years of trying to change this attitude to no avail, I kicked him to the curb. (He immediately found another woman to take care of everything).
I tried to raise a son who would not do this to a woman. I succeeded. He's a great father who takes care of everything as a single parent. Why? Because his (EX) WIFE felt that she didn't have to do any of these chores. SHE took on the man's role of coming home and doing nothing. SHE felt she was entitled to relax since she worked all day (he has 40+hr. work, grad school & coaching).
The roles have become blurred, but there will always be one parent who takes on the responsibility. Someone who grows up. Someone who puts the kids first.
I'm 62, have worked part time as a parent, and full time as a parent. Neither amount of hours lessened my home work schedule, the 'second shift'. I fought the battle for sharing the home work with a husband, same age, who did not think he needed to put in his share of time on the chores, the child care, the bills, etc. and who felt entitled to keep money out of his check for his own entertainment on any evening he felt he wanted to stop at a bar. After years of trying to change this attitude to no avail, I kicked him to the curb. (He immediately found another woman to take care of everything).
I tried to raise a son who would not do this to a woman. I succeeded. He's a great father who takes care of everything as a single parent. Why? Because his (EX) WIFE felt that she didn't have to do any of these chores. SHE took on the man's role of coming home and doing nothing. SHE felt she was entitled to relax since she worked all day (he has 40+hr. work, grad school & coaching).
The roles have become blurred, but there will always be one parent who takes on the responsibility. Someone who grows up. Someone who puts the kids first.
8
The problem is this: we are doing ZILCH to encourage men to stay home/take up more of the housework while spending ALL OUR TIME encouraging women (and girls) to take on non-traditional roles. We want girls to play with trucks, but why aren't we doing the same for boys and dolls (if we do, then more will grow up to take on family-focused roles)? Something is WRONG here, don't you think?
14
Who is "we" ? Every man in my extended family can (going back 70 years) cook, clean, lauder and child care as well as the women.
Some of us hold out for quality instead of marrying whoever will have us and then martyring it for 30 years. Be more discriminating in whom you mate with, ladies. Dont expect the rest of us to solve your domestic division of labor.
Some of us hold out for quality instead of marrying whoever will have us and then martyring it for 30 years. Be more discriminating in whom you mate with, ladies. Dont expect the rest of us to solve your domestic division of labor.
3
Not Mark...
Thank you artschick. This was America's weakness...what we call "Liberal Feminism". Women Activists in America merely went into "problem solving approach", without real social reform and structural changes. Liberal feminists of America pushed for women to become more like men, have like men and be more like men. Hillary even talked about her pant-suits. But men never learned the art, the science and the importance of care giving, care taking, nurture, bonding, emotional awareness and connection, communication, domestic work, etc. Women learned from men, about men and to be like men...American men learned diddly squat from women. Look at our military...they even harass and molest women who dress like the boys, carry guns like the boys, fight like the boys and "want to" fight like the boys. How pathetic is that.
Long way to go!
My wife lived in Australia and traveled around Europe a lot, and always said that the US was going in the wrong direction (even compared to Singapore which has much better public education and health care).
When you think you are super duper as a country you stop listening, reflecting and learning. That is the pathetic state of our country. Now brace for more macho wars and watch the Party of Family Values destroy more families and good people.
Thank you artschick. This was America's weakness...what we call "Liberal Feminism". Women Activists in America merely went into "problem solving approach", without real social reform and structural changes. Liberal feminists of America pushed for women to become more like men, have like men and be more like men. Hillary even talked about her pant-suits. But men never learned the art, the science and the importance of care giving, care taking, nurture, bonding, emotional awareness and connection, communication, domestic work, etc. Women learned from men, about men and to be like men...American men learned diddly squat from women. Look at our military...they even harass and molest women who dress like the boys, carry guns like the boys, fight like the boys and "want to" fight like the boys. How pathetic is that.
Long way to go!
My wife lived in Australia and traveled around Europe a lot, and always said that the US was going in the wrong direction (even compared to Singapore which has much better public education and health care).
When you think you are super duper as a country you stop listening, reflecting and learning. That is the pathetic state of our country. Now brace for more macho wars and watch the Party of Family Values destroy more families and good people.
My wife and I both work full time and have 3 kids age 3 or under. Our kids go to daycare at my wife's work, which is good for now but will not last forever. Eventually kindergarten will come, and the questions of how to deal with their open afternoons, sick days, off days, etc., will arise.
The ideal equality of Sheryl Sandberg's Lean In world is achievable, but it makes for a very painful existence. The reality for anyone who unlike Ms. Sandberg either cannot afford, or does not want, a team of nannies to raise their children is that your life is going to be a constant logistical hassle in which you are perpetually giving every major constituent in your life (your spouse, your kids, your job) less than what they deserve. In the world as it exists today in America, it is beyond question that everyone in the family will have a more peaceful, easier existence if one of the spouses just bites the bullet and takes on the role of primary caregiver for the children. For this reason, the women at my work who have risen to the higher ranks and have children nearly all have a husband who is the primary caregiver for their kids. In other words, they have adopted the same 1950s formula - nothing new, really, just the gender roles reversed by the force of economic circumstance.
With this background, the only surprising thing to me is that 18 year olds apparently have this foresight. None of this is an issue without children, and that typically is years down the road for them.
The ideal equality of Sheryl Sandberg's Lean In world is achievable, but it makes for a very painful existence. The reality for anyone who unlike Ms. Sandberg either cannot afford, or does not want, a team of nannies to raise their children is that your life is going to be a constant logistical hassle in which you are perpetually giving every major constituent in your life (your spouse, your kids, your job) less than what they deserve. In the world as it exists today in America, it is beyond question that everyone in the family will have a more peaceful, easier existence if one of the spouses just bites the bullet and takes on the role of primary caregiver for the children. For this reason, the women at my work who have risen to the higher ranks and have children nearly all have a husband who is the primary caregiver for their kids. In other words, they have adopted the same 1950s formula - nothing new, really, just the gender roles reversed by the force of economic circumstance.
With this background, the only surprising thing to me is that 18 year olds apparently have this foresight. None of this is an issue without children, and that typically is years down the road for them.
10
Your title implies that it will be millennial men who will be the decisive force in whether or not women—their wives—work. Putting the decision in their hands is a problem you perpetuate in your headline. Equality means joint decision-making. Women shouldn't be forced to conform to men's desires. Women should read this article through the lens of "OK, but what do I want, and how can I marry a guy who helps me do that." My first reaction as a women who came of age in the 1960s: Who cares what millennial want if it inhibits my own talent, dreams, and ambitions."
6
Not Mark...
I did feel a bit put upon by some of the comments, but when I read yours I felt, "Yeh, she's got a point and I got to get there!". The nice gal in me, the Asian woman in me, the thoughtful care-for-others middle class South Asian upbringing in me and the social worker in me does that...too much. I got to learn, a bit late in the game on that front, to say comfortably "Who cares...?" After caring for someone with HD, and being away from a full time academic world for so long, and doing outstanding free lance research and writing at piddly pay, I got to get back with "I don't care for any of these dumbos no matter what their age. I am amazing and I deserve a lot more...and this country owes me big time!"
You are funny too, love it, love, love it...
Best wishes...
I did feel a bit put upon by some of the comments, but when I read yours I felt, "Yeh, she's got a point and I got to get there!". The nice gal in me, the Asian woman in me, the thoughtful care-for-others middle class South Asian upbringing in me and the social worker in me does that...too much. I got to learn, a bit late in the game on that front, to say comfortably "Who cares...?" After caring for someone with HD, and being away from a full time academic world for so long, and doing outstanding free lance research and writing at piddly pay, I got to get back with "I don't care for any of these dumbos no matter what their age. I am amazing and I deserve a lot more...and this country owes me big time!"
You are funny too, love it, love, love it...
Best wishes...
Sometimes the child determines the choices parents make - if finances permit. One of our children had an inborn personality that led to emotional issues. The others did not and I don't believe for a moment that it was a case of nurture - or lack of it- over nature . Nor did the therapists we consulted.
The emotional issues were temporary but lasted a few years. That is a small bit of time iwhen considering how many years it takes to raise a child and adolescent. But even after we got through the worst of it, I couldn't work more than part- time due to some bumps along the way. Adolescence was unusually bumpy for him. So was college .
But he graduated and grew into a happy and successful adult. There have been no significant emotional issues for nearly 20 years. He is as bonded to us as our other children.. Our family has close bonds.
But I was lucky to be able to stay home and help my child and adolescent learn to find his way into the world. May all parents be so lucky. And financially able to make that choice, if needed.
The emotional issues were temporary but lasted a few years. That is a small bit of time iwhen considering how many years it takes to raise a child and adolescent. But even after we got through the worst of it, I couldn't work more than part- time due to some bumps along the way. Adolescence was unusually bumpy for him. So was college .
But he graduated and grew into a happy and successful adult. There have been no significant emotional issues for nearly 20 years. He is as bonded to us as our other children.. Our family has close bonds.
But I was lucky to be able to stay home and help my child and adolescent learn to find his way into the world. May all parents be so lucky. And financially able to make that choice, if needed.
3
What does this have to do with gender equality? I wish my wife had a job that she loved and made enough money to support the family. I (the male), with a job that bores me to death, would love to stay home and raise the kids. And there are plenty of women in my situation.
And that is where the feminist movement of the 1970's failed. Rather than respecting the choice of women who wanted to stay home, they demonized it, and by the end of the decade they were all Stepford Wives.
And that is where the feminist movement of the 1970's failed. Rather than respecting the choice of women who wanted to stay home, they demonized it, and by the end of the decade they were all Stepford Wives.
4
It was so insulting to hear Hillary Clinton disparage women for staying home and baking cookies with the kids.
I would not trade having been the "housewife" or whatever you want to call the job for all the money in the world.
We struggled finically as artists and sometimes had not a penny to spare even to rent a video in those days. But greater riches were present.
After 22 years of marriage he wondered too far astray and we separated.
All my creative work at home while raising my children parlayed into a freelance artist gigs that have provided a roof over my children's (adults now) heads.
Still living close to the edge but would not trade my freedom to run my own life.
I would never want to be married again and having absolutely no regrets having
once tried that experiment because there are my children.
Feminism means Choices, not trying to be like men; the mistake women made in the 70's. Remember women gaging themselves by wearing neckties to be like men?
I would not trade having been the "housewife" or whatever you want to call the job for all the money in the world.
We struggled finically as artists and sometimes had not a penny to spare even to rent a video in those days. But greater riches were present.
After 22 years of marriage he wondered too far astray and we separated.
All my creative work at home while raising my children parlayed into a freelance artist gigs that have provided a roof over my children's (adults now) heads.
Still living close to the edge but would not trade my freedom to run my own life.
I would never want to be married again and having absolutely no regrets having
once tried that experiment because there are my children.
Feminism means Choices, not trying to be like men; the mistake women made in the 70's. Remember women gaging themselves by wearing neckties to be like men?
2
It is equal for one to stay at home and one to go to work. Many of us (working women) are starting to confess that we'd rather be at home, managing our households. Calling it "slavery" as another commenter has automatically assumes that working outside the home is not slavery -- except that it is. Oh sure, one earns the money but as the tradition goes they usually hand it over to the household manager (My father got to keep about 5 percent of his earnings, the rest went to my mother to manage...and while he was sleeping in motels on business, working late hours, and driving to work in all kinds of weather, my mother was reading books and being creative. Housework? It's not a bad job if you can get it.
2
If you look at the concept or ideal of a wife/mother who stays at home, who wouldn't want that. As a woman who left her career to stay at home and raise the kids (and do the housework, deal with the meals, act as a Girl Friday for the working spouse etc) it became apparent to me early on that my new role was such a sweet deal, for my spouse. I could have used a wife myself! I don't regret the experience but there was and remains room for improvement in how this role is viewed.
3
My observation has been that Millennial Men want their wives to be their Mommies. While some may say that men have always wanted that, I see it vastly more pronounced in my sons & nephews than I saw it in my siblings.
The evil sexist Sigmund Freud may not have been entirely wrong in suggesting that quote anatomy is destiny unquote. Women are not just shorter men. Instead, they have a unique role in creating and raising the next generation. This powerful role has been devalued by some feminists in recent decades.
This does not mean that mothers of small children should be less educated than their husbands, or that they should not have a fully equal share in major family decisions.
In most cases middle class mothers should stay home for ten or twelve years until their last child has entered first or second grade, assuming that is financially possible. I suspect that on average mothers do a better job of raising their young children than do hired Third World nannies.
The world of work is not as glamorous as it is often portrayed in movies and TV. Most middle class men (and women) do not rise above middle management paper shuffling, simply because there is so little room at the top of the pyramid.
This does not mean that mothers of small children should be less educated than their husbands, or that they should not have a fully equal share in major family decisions.
In most cases middle class mothers should stay home for ten or twelve years until their last child has entered first or second grade, assuming that is financially possible. I suspect that on average mothers do a better job of raising their young children than do hired Third World nannies.
The world of work is not as glamorous as it is often portrayed in movies and TV. Most middle class men (and women) do not rise above middle management paper shuffling, simply because there is so little room at the top of the pyramid.
5
Telling others what they "should" do with their lives generally never ends well
Women should stay home for 2-12 years. Speechless.
2
Oh please. The vast majority of people cannot afford to have one non-working spouse for more than a few years and it is a huge financial risk for the SAH parent. Re-entering the workforce is almost impossible after more than a couple of years away.
I'm almost wondering if we should examine as a followup whether or not Millennial men even want wives . . .
You'd be surprised.
You'd be surprised.
18 year old boys know what the real world is about? And we are asking their opinions about marriage, children, jobs? Good luck to that "another failing" generation.
I came into adulthood in the 1960's with no idea, really, of who I was. The Peace Corps, marriage with another volunteer, a brief period of travel and experiences, a child, a divorce, a wonderful, frightening, enormously growth-creating experience of being a single mom, a bit poor ( so thankful for earned income tax credits), graduate school and a Ph.D, a self-employed professional, still working part-time. Through these years of my adult life, I learned to do the things women traditionally do and the things men traditionally do. I had to be adaptable, resourceful and resilient. I have become much more of a person than I would have been had I not taken on multiple roles.
White men have resisted being resourceful and adaptable in androgynous ways. They have deprived themselves of a greater depth and competence earned through doing things they didn't feel comfortable or simply didn't want to do. White male entitlement has not been a character-building advantage. It has diminished men and made them fearful and angry.
While men benefit from marriage in terms of health, wealth and happiness, the same is not true of women. Marriage, while not necessarily bad for women, is not necessarily good for us. Learning to take care of one's self and others in all ways makes us more substantive and secure people. The women's movement of the 1960's was a life-changer for me. I'm so grateful that I had to reach so far out of my comfort zone. I would hope for the same for men.
White men have resisted being resourceful and adaptable in androgynous ways. They have deprived themselves of a greater depth and competence earned through doing things they didn't feel comfortable or simply didn't want to do. White male entitlement has not been a character-building advantage. It has diminished men and made them fearful and angry.
While men benefit from marriage in terms of health, wealth and happiness, the same is not true of women. Marriage, while not necessarily bad for women, is not necessarily good for us. Learning to take care of one's self and others in all ways makes us more substantive and secure people. The women's movement of the 1960's was a life-changer for me. I'm so grateful that I had to reach so far out of my comfort zone. I would hope for the same for men.
8
And since you brought up race, black men have adapted "in androgynous ways"?
I, too, wonder why the absolute focus on what a millenial male wants out of a women. Savor that. The good news is that some millenials may never marry and a potential bride then would not have to deal with a guy who just wants clean kids and house. A chunk of those marriages that do take place will fail like they always have and of course there will be no alimony for those women who left the workplace. This is unbelieveably sad.
3
I love the title of the article. What do millennial women want? Why do I give a hoot what millennial men want. Oh, that's right, women, even millennial women are second class citizens and men of all age groups freely express that sentiment. It is awesome to see negative social gender stereotypes remaining strong in the 21st century! Thanks NYT for keeping it real.
1
Hey, I'm a female Gen X-er, and I'd LOVE a stay-at-home wife. Any takers?
1
No reforms will replace the undeniable fact that women cannot do it all. Be bread-winners AND raise as well happy and educated children. Children who will grow to be the adults of tomorrow. Society has to understand that.
4
What do you mean? This is how it works in the Nordic countries. Both the man and woman work, and they both raise kids, equally. As they have single payer child care system for everybody, nobody stays at home.
The reality is we all want a wife to cook and clean for us (and raise our children). The difference is that some men see that as something they are entitled to; women see it as an impossible dream.
3
Buried the lead on this story....this is about better child care, not a degredation of belief in gender equality.
The fact that it is difficult to "have it all" in a workplace which offers little or no support for families with children is certainly a huge factor. If it was easier and more affordable for men and women to have day care and paid family leave there would be more incentive for women to stay in the workplace. But the problem is more deep rooted. Ads, movies, and books still frequently support the notion that male authority is normative and that females are best suited for the role of sexy subordinate. The percentage of women in government is unbalanced--women are not equally represented there or in major corporations. Is it any wonder that a 1950s era scenario with daddy going to work and mommy staying home seems the only "normal or natural" alternative? Sadly, there are few models that offer a different model, and too few people in power who work to promote true gender equality.
2
In addition to the reasoning set forth herein, I also believe there is another factor at play for the decreased support of women in the work force - namely stay at home mothers in the 1990's.
Lest we forget, the 1990's (when the youngest millennials were in elementary/middle school) was a time of great economic prosperity in the United States. Salaries grew, the stock market soared, globalization hadn't rocked the American middle class yet, home prices were low, and oil was extremely cheep. Moreover, college cost about 1/3 of what it costs now (in inflation adjusted dollars). With these factors, more millennials grew up in households with stay at home mothers in part because families could afford to only have one income earner and still make ends meet.
I think that this article fails to account for these factors. When people grow up in a certain environment, I think it is only natural to believe that that a home environment similar to their upbringing is the best type of home environment (in part because that is all they know). Thus, based on the fact that many younger millennials grew up with stay at home mothers, (and these baby-boomer stay at home mothers grew up with stay at home mothers as well) I think its worth noting that these preferences continue through different generations and can thus effect the data.
Lest we forget, the 1990's (when the youngest millennials were in elementary/middle school) was a time of great economic prosperity in the United States. Salaries grew, the stock market soared, globalization hadn't rocked the American middle class yet, home prices were low, and oil was extremely cheep. Moreover, college cost about 1/3 of what it costs now (in inflation adjusted dollars). With these factors, more millennials grew up in households with stay at home mothers in part because families could afford to only have one income earner and still make ends meet.
I think that this article fails to account for these factors. When people grow up in a certain environment, I think it is only natural to believe that that a home environment similar to their upbringing is the best type of home environment (in part because that is all they know). Thus, based on the fact that many younger millennials grew up with stay at home mothers, (and these baby-boomer stay at home mothers grew up with stay at home mothers as well) I think its worth noting that these preferences continue through different generations and can thus effect the data.
I have been pondering the responsibilities of mothers for the past few years and my mind has flip flopped on the issue as I attempt to grapple with my desire to pursue my own ambitions while still providing a nurturing and caring environment for my husband and our three young children (all boys under 10).
I have been critical of other mothers who don't work. I still find it hard to wrap my head around the idea of someone pursuing higher education and then staying home with their kids and relying on their spouses to make enough money so that they are financially comfortable and can stay home, but still doesn't give them any means of financial independence.
Recently my views have changed and I have more empathy women who opt-out of the workforce. Someone does have to be there with the kids...to nurture and guide them and be an active parent. Having two parents pursuing high powered careers makes this nearly impossible. I would hope that goes both ways though, which typically does not seem to be the case. My husband supports and encourages my own ambitions and is satisfied with his own career which offers a ton of flexibility. He is still the primary bread winner, for now. (We are both eagerly awaiting the time when my own salary surpasses his.)
I cringe at the thought that children from two working parent households now have a different idea of what the perfect home environment looks like. However, then again, it also makes perfect sense to me...something's gotta give.
I have been critical of other mothers who don't work. I still find it hard to wrap my head around the idea of someone pursuing higher education and then staying home with their kids and relying on their spouses to make enough money so that they are financially comfortable and can stay home, but still doesn't give them any means of financial independence.
Recently my views have changed and I have more empathy women who opt-out of the workforce. Someone does have to be there with the kids...to nurture and guide them and be an active parent. Having two parents pursuing high powered careers makes this nearly impossible. I would hope that goes both ways though, which typically does not seem to be the case. My husband supports and encourages my own ambitions and is satisfied with his own career which offers a ton of flexibility. He is still the primary bread winner, for now. (We are both eagerly awaiting the time when my own salary surpasses his.)
I cringe at the thought that children from two working parent households now have a different idea of what the perfect home environment looks like. However, then again, it also makes perfect sense to me...something's gotta give.
1
Most people aren't 'pursuing a high powered career' they just have jobs and those jobs are a necessity to house, clothe, feed, educate and provide medical care for their families. Why when these discussions come up the default scenario is of 2 selfish career driven parents who neglect their children. Really? What white upper middle class privileged country do you all live in? Can I get a visa or would I be considered an illegal?
Someone this article did not address racial/cultural demographics at all. Hard to imagine the research didn't.
Latino/Hispanic and other immigrants make up an increasing % of our population, especially of the young families. Many of them come from cultures where male-breadwinning is still by far the ideal (if not the reality). These norms don't change in a single generation or even two.
It's kind of shocking that this massive demographic shift was not addressed in this article.
Latino/Hispanic and other immigrants make up an increasing % of our population, especially of the young families. Many of them come from cultures where male-breadwinning is still by far the ideal (if not the reality). These norms don't change in a single generation or even two.
It's kind of shocking that this massive demographic shift was not addressed in this article.
1
All I can say to Millennials who believe this, is that there's a reason the Women's Movement started.
5
Millennial men don't really care about having stay-at-home wives any more than millenial women care about having stay-at-home husbands. They'd both just like to be secure enough financially to have the option of one full time parent and one breadwinner, even if they both work and have no plans to have kids in the future.
2
Anomie and overall insecurity are powerful motivators. Our ideal aspirations -- which we are moving toward, fitfully -- can be interrupted by these things quite easily, and it should be seen as natural.
How many people, who otherwise would be against sending out the full might of our military to invade a nation, in the wake of 9/11 supported the disastrous blunder of the Iraq invasion?
I am not surprised our ideals are not doing well these days. There is no telling what happens when a country loses its "dream" and people start to doubt, each in their own way, whether this whole system is just a trap.
Address the root economic discontents, and the ideals shall resume. Exacerbate them, and they shall continue to be scrambled.
How many people, who otherwise would be against sending out the full might of our military to invade a nation, in the wake of 9/11 supported the disastrous blunder of the Iraq invasion?
I am not surprised our ideals are not doing well these days. There is no telling what happens when a country loses its "dream" and people start to doubt, each in their own way, whether this whole system is just a trap.
Address the root economic discontents, and the ideals shall resume. Exacerbate them, and they shall continue to be scrambled.
2
Conservative public policies related to childcare, family leave, healthcare and the workplace make life worse for people. The more stressed they get, the more conservative they get. Leading to even more conservative public policies that make their lives even worse.
For most American families, single-breadwinner homes probably won't be a financial option ever again. But if you really think it's worth the attempt, then restore unions, raise wages, and reverse the total domination capital has achieved over labor.
For most American families, single-breadwinner homes probably won't be a financial option ever again. But if you really think it's worth the attempt, then restore unions, raise wages, and reverse the total domination capital has achieved over labor.
2
We shouldn't be generalizing what is an extremely personal and relationship-driven decision. As a millennial male raised by a stay-at-home mom, I understand the sacrifices my mother made to raise me. I think I turned out well because of the time she spent and the love she gave me while my father worked to support the family economically. But that is not a choice that was made lightly, nor is it a choice that I would ever demand or expect of someone else.
I see my partner as my equal. We are a team that supports one-another's desires, hopes, wishes, and dreams. If my partner decided that being a SAHM was what she wanted, I would be supportive of that choice. If she wanted to instead keep working, I would be equally supportive of that.
Relationships must be equal for both parties to feel fulfilled and enriched. Whatever they decide to do is fine provided that both individuals continue to respect the relationship, their equality, and the contribution each makes to their livelihood.
I see my partner as my equal. We are a team that supports one-another's desires, hopes, wishes, and dreams. If my partner decided that being a SAHM was what she wanted, I would be supportive of that choice. If she wanted to instead keep working, I would be equally supportive of that.
Relationships must be equal for both parties to feel fulfilled and enriched. Whatever they decide to do is fine provided that both individuals continue to respect the relationship, their equality, and the contribution each makes to their livelihood.
2
Lots of men still want a compliant domestic goddess who will raise the kids, take care of the home, know how to entertain his work colleagues and friends and be social asset to him while remaining physically attractive and sexually available to him at all times. Nothing has changed since my grandparents generation it would seem.
4
This may be politically incorrect to mention, but young children need their mothers. I'm in favor of gender equality but it can't be denied that it's better for children to be taken care of by a parent, and not strangers. It should be obvious and is well established that the first primary attachment for children is with their mothers.
5
I absolutely disagree. My granddaughter is in an excellent daycare because my daughter has a wonderful career. Each week I spend at least one morning with my granddaughter and bring her to "school" as we call it. Every day, they paint, they play at a water table, they explore Central Park, they are read books and learn Spanish and even get to try yoga and soccer, among other activities. The children are social, they are well cared for and, at 14 months, my granddaughter in an engaged, happy, loving child with two doting parents, four involved grandparents and a routine in which she thrives. Most of the young children I see around with their mothers during the day seem to spend the majority of the time alone, bored, or at very short, expensive classes, in which there is little consistency. I have no doubt there are wonderful stay at home parents who have the expertise and energy and space to create rich days like my granddaughter experiences (also with zero screen time), but I think they are likely the exception and not the rule.
23
This is true, but once kids go to school, I don't think there is any harm if they stay in after school so that the mom can also work.
T.E. Duggan that sounds like great daycare for your granddaughter but it is a mistake to come to any general conclusions from that one example. Ideal for preschool children (maybe not for the mothers and fathers) would be for them to be at home with their mothers and to have other children available to interact with. I think that life long abandonment issues can result from mothers and fathers not being there for there young children because this is a vulnerable developmental stage of life. Grandparent can be important too. Feminism and gender equality are all well and good, but who is speaking out for the children's welfare?
I'm a millennial man who wants (and has) a stay-at-home wife, largely because we came to the mutual decision that it was the most advantageous resource allocation strategy we could afford while maintaining our dearest values.
Financially speaking, I read a convincing analysis (data summary here: http://www.salary.com/Media/Mom-Salary-2016-breakdown.pdf ) that the combined duties which my wife performs with such alacrity during her ~90 hour workweek together add up to a salary of between $100-150K for similarly competent professionals- to say nothing of the benefits to my children of having their mother present. Given the unfortunate reality of the relatively low salary that my wife could expect to receive if working full-time in her field (Biochemistry), her election to stay at home is certainly an advantageous financial move for our family.
Whatever my wife and I’s values, there came a moment years ago when we were confronted with the facts of what would be needed to have the sort of family we wanted. Her and I had the opportunity to plan for and choose these things unlike so many women who are forced into roles by circumstances; yet even with my engineering salary this meant sacrifice- we delayed having children to pay off student debt; delayed buying a home; cut luxuries... I work, hard... and my wife chose homemaking.
So we play our different, essential, equal roles- isn't that how life works? Egalitarianism, for its own sake, may have been far more expensive.
Financially speaking, I read a convincing analysis (data summary here: http://www.salary.com/Media/Mom-Salary-2016-breakdown.pdf ) that the combined duties which my wife performs with such alacrity during her ~90 hour workweek together add up to a salary of between $100-150K for similarly competent professionals- to say nothing of the benefits to my children of having their mother present. Given the unfortunate reality of the relatively low salary that my wife could expect to receive if working full-time in her field (Biochemistry), her election to stay at home is certainly an advantageous financial move for our family.
Whatever my wife and I’s values, there came a moment years ago when we were confronted with the facts of what would be needed to have the sort of family we wanted. Her and I had the opportunity to plan for and choose these things unlike so many women who are forced into roles by circumstances; yet even with my engineering salary this meant sacrifice- we delayed having children to pay off student debt; delayed buying a home; cut luxuries... I work, hard... and my wife chose homemaking.
So we play our different, essential, equal roles- isn't that how life works? Egalitarianism, for its own sake, may have been far more expensive.
2
Do u pay her 100k a year from your salary?
Of course- I pay her my *entire* salary- which is still not enough to cover the value of her services. The point is that we each work in the most efficient arrangement possible where we can collectively add the maximal value to our family- me in the office, and her, at home.
The point isn't that she should be paid for the services she provides, in the same way that "I" am not paid for my services- but rather, our family gets paid, in either case, as a unit. The point of the salary numbers for her are to show that value of her contribution to our family is so high that for us to give it up for something worth less (to us) would be crazy!
The point isn't that she should be paid for the services she provides, in the same way that "I" am not paid for my services- but rather, our family gets paid, in either case, as a unit. The point of the salary numbers for her are to show that value of her contribution to our family is so high that for us to give it up for something worth less (to us) would be crazy!
I rather think those men probably all want supermodels as well as stay-at-home wives devoted to their every whim. Want away, doesn't mean they'll get them and it certainly doesn't mean their masculine expressed wants will drive actual social practice or ideals, especially given the widening mismatch between the expressed desires of the genders.
The other point about a general societal need for better support for child, family-, and individual-care for a balenced work/other life is an important point, for both married / partnered or single people.
The other point about a general societal need for better support for child, family-, and individual-care for a balenced work/other life is an important point, for both married / partnered or single people.
3
Totally naive to think all parents have the luxury of being able to have one parent not working. Of course we are regressive on women's equality, with the current occupant of the White House, what else would you expect?
With a divorce rate of over 50%, any educated woman is taking a big risk to give up her career potential to stay at home while her husband climbs the ladder to increasing levels of success. No, it's not an easy thing to balance child rearing with career building, but both members of the marriage should share this and both should be allowed to have a career. It can be done. And if things fall apart, I should think any woman would want to be prepared and unafraid to take care of herself.
9
I am waiting for women like Ivanka, Chelsea, etc. to announce their divorce soon. They will all be singing a different tune. None of these women know what it is like to be a working poor, working long, working stressed, working single, working couple, working minority, working woman, working without pay...person.
Lot of women wants the rich husband with copious amount of money to pay for nannies, cooks, cleaners, beauty spas, fashionable homes. designer clothes, wonderful luxurious vacations (like the Kushners took)...because it is the only one that seems to offer reasonably relaxed stress free fear-free life with fun most of the time. Then these richie rich women want a great job, through a husband or father or uncle, even in the government "as a change agent". As a "change agent"!! Imagine that! Lot of suffering for these richie riches, men and women, with inherited privilege might help.
Lot of women wants the rich husband with copious amount of money to pay for nannies, cooks, cleaners, beauty spas, fashionable homes. designer clothes, wonderful luxurious vacations (like the Kushners took)...because it is the only one that seems to offer reasonably relaxed stress free fear-free life with fun most of the time. Then these richie rich women want a great job, through a husband or father or uncle, even in the government "as a change agent". As a "change agent"!! Imagine that! Lot of suffering for these richie riches, men and women, with inherited privilege might help.
True story.
In my dream world there are no gender-specific pronouns. My spouse is my partner in parenting, income generation...life. One partner is taller, stronger and doesn't easily fit into smaller spaces. The other is far more efficient and had a physical advantage when feeding our infant children. One is better at colors and design, the other better at building and assembly. While the division of labor often, but not always, falls along traditional gender lines, it is due to capabilities, interests and desires. Not chromosomes, presumptions or prejudice. The better question to ask: Do millennial couples want stay at home spouses?
Stephanie Coontz's op-ed indirectly perpetuates the "Stab in the Back" myth in regards to Millennials "dooming" Hillary Clinton's 2016 presidential run. In reality, most poll analysts concur the key demographic bloc that betrayed Hillary Clinton in favor of Donald Trump were middle-aged, educated white women of the Baby Boomer generation. These latter voters are not -- by any demographic measurement -- part of the Millennial generational unit.
Furthermore, Baby Boomers represented approximately 65%-75% of participating voters in the 2016 presidential election, and their political clout outweighs the Silent Generation, Generation X, and Millennials *all* combined. In other words, if every Millennial voted, the Boomers would still prevail. Last but not least, Boomers continue to shift rightward on the political spectrum with each passing year, and they are expected to reign supreme at the ballot box until 2024. But of course, let us instead myopically focus on the young Millennials who are a small fraction of overall active voters.
Furthermore, Baby Boomers represented approximately 65%-75% of participating voters in the 2016 presidential election, and their political clout outweighs the Silent Generation, Generation X, and Millennials *all* combined. In other words, if every Millennial voted, the Boomers would still prevail. Last but not least, Boomers continue to shift rightward on the political spectrum with each passing year, and they are expected to reign supreme at the ballot box until 2024. But of course, let us instead myopically focus on the young Millennials who are a small fraction of overall active voters.
It doesn't matter what millennial males may think is ideal. Women will have to work, as they have since the '60s.
3
Unless paid leave lasts for 18 years I dont think it will help. My most important development as a human occured between the ages of 10-18. My Mom and Dad werent around. They had to work all the time.
Giving my parents money to take care of me during a time I dont even remember is great, but in this economy they will just disappear for the times when a kid can remember after that help ends.
Personally, I think we need to get to a place where parents can spend more than 30 min a day with their children. I almost never saw my parents at all from 10 onward.
Giving my parents money to take care of me during a time I dont even remember is great, but in this economy they will just disappear for the times when a kid can remember after that help ends.
Personally, I think we need to get to a place where parents can spend more than 30 min a day with their children. I almost never saw my parents at all from 10 onward.
3
The underlying premise of modern feminism is that it is good to outsource the raising of your children. So many commentators cheer the supposed European universal day care, but ignore the social costs of a generation of children raised by surrogate caregivers. This has lead to, among other things, declining birthrates as motherhood is no longer valued.
3
We're more than walking wombs, John.
I'm not a mom but I'm a business owner, net taxpayer, philanthropist, volunteer, elder caregiver, environmentalist, published author in both fiction & non-fiction, professional mentor, animal welfare activist, good neighbor and friend. All of those are at least as valuable as motherhood, thanks very much.
I'm not a mom but I'm a business owner, net taxpayer, philanthropist, volunteer, elder caregiver, environmentalist, published author in both fiction & non-fiction, professional mentor, animal welfare activist, good neighbor and friend. All of those are at least as valuable as motherhood, thanks very much.
This article assumes that mothers who choose to stay home do so because they have this backwards 1950's mentality. I don't think that's the case.
Many women choose to stay home because finding quality, safe, reliable childcare is DIFFICULT and EXPENSIVE. If you don't have family members nearby to watch your kids while you're at work, you can end up spending your whole paycheck on childcare. And if your kid ever gets sick (which kids are known to do from time to time), you have to leave work to pick up the kid because they can't stay in daycare/school. Most jobs don't allow for that flexibility.
If the spouse's job has health benefits that can cover the whole family, sometimes it's easier for the woman to "stay home" and be the primary caretaker. Or vice versa: If the woman makes more money than the man and she has health benefits, it's sometimes easier for the dad to stay home.
I'm willing to bet than more times than not, the decision for a woman to stay at home is a financial one, not a sexist one. (Now, the reason it's usually the man who has the higher paying job with better benefits, that's another issue . . .)
Many women choose to stay home because finding quality, safe, reliable childcare is DIFFICULT and EXPENSIVE. If you don't have family members nearby to watch your kids while you're at work, you can end up spending your whole paycheck on childcare. And if your kid ever gets sick (which kids are known to do from time to time), you have to leave work to pick up the kid because they can't stay in daycare/school. Most jobs don't allow for that flexibility.
If the spouse's job has health benefits that can cover the whole family, sometimes it's easier for the woman to "stay home" and be the primary caretaker. Or vice versa: If the woman makes more money than the man and she has health benefits, it's sometimes easier for the dad to stay home.
I'm willing to bet than more times than not, the decision for a woman to stay at home is a financial one, not a sexist one. (Now, the reason it's usually the man who has the higher paying job with better benefits, that's another issue . . .)
1
Years ago I taught at a private pre-school in New York City and a lot of the mothers worked. The director said that many of them told her they really wanted to be stay-at-home moms but needed the added income. They preferred to be at home with their children and raise them rather than a stranger. They felt no one cares and has the concern that a mother has for her children. I happen to agree with them.
4
The baseline assumption seems to be that a stay-at-home mom is in an unequal relationship and no mother could possibly want that. This is dependent on the notion that "women's work" is somehow inferior, and the work done inside the home to benefit the family is less worthy than the work done for outsiders in exchange for pay. Has the author considered the wishes of the mothers, many of whom want to stay home with their young children? Or is it just based on this misguided notion that childcare and housework are such menial tasks that no self-respecting woman would prefer to do them over working outside the home? But many new mothers have no wish to be separated from their infants for 8 hours a day, leaving them to be raised by strangers in a day care center. I'm sure many fathers would rather stay home with their new babies, too, but the separation is a lot harder on a breastfeeding mother. Why do we assume that staying home with the kids is so unpalatable to mothers? Also, it's possible that a generation of millenial boys raised by unmarried working mothers have a wistful attitude towards what they never had: a full-time mother.
My wife stays at home. I happily married a college educated woman who is in many ways far more intelligent than I, but a multitude of factors - my military employment with its resulting itinerant lifestyle, our children, and my ability to provide for our family on one income - led us to conclude that staying at home worked best for us.
It was a choice we made as a family. And that's what being a feminist means - it means that woman have the right to make the choice that's best for them.
It was a choice we made as a family. And that's what being a feminist means - it means that woman have the right to make the choice that's best for them.
4
I've always felt if I were to have a family that at least one parent needs to stay home. My sister even complains about the family balance that my parents had. One worked day time hours, the other was an ER doctor working night hours. Never really got to see them together. Get in trouble at school, mom, the doctor would be more upset that she got awoken midday over whatever shenanigans I got myself into. Dad was too tired from 9-5 to bother helping for homework. Still, I love them and understand all they did.
For me though, the idea of the entire family sitting at the dinner table each night together is the appeal. Consider that I make my living trading with my brokerage account (I don't say this as if I'm a newbee trader, I've been trading for over a decade now), it seems the most feasible thing is that I stay home because I can. Also..the traditional work force with manages and co-workers seems like a cesspit of forced social interactions! That said, I can't stand children so the idea of staying at home with kids .. hah! I'd just hire a nanny buy the property across the street to be my office..hiding den.
However, having a family is a different beast altogether than dating. Dating .. eh... I've long given up on that nonsense.
For me though, the idea of the entire family sitting at the dinner table each night together is the appeal. Consider that I make my living trading with my brokerage account (I don't say this as if I'm a newbee trader, I've been trading for over a decade now), it seems the most feasible thing is that I stay home because I can. Also..the traditional work force with manages and co-workers seems like a cesspit of forced social interactions! That said, I can't stand children so the idea of staying at home with kids .. hah! I'd just hire a nanny buy the property across the street to be my office..hiding den.
However, having a family is a different beast altogether than dating. Dating .. eh... I've long given up on that nonsense.
4
It appears that a lot of people didn't read the entire article. Anyone who is aware of Stephanie Coontz's work and previous writings would know not to jump to the conclusions made in so many of these comments without finishing the article. First, she is simply reporting statistics in the first part of the article. Second, the latter part of the article makes it clear that her real message is about the disparity between the U.S. and European countries regarding governmental and societal support for family work/life balance. She is not agreeing or disagreeing with the various attitudes revealed in the statistics. She is using those statistics to address underlying issues that make it more difficult for two-earner families in the U.S.
I worked. My husband worked. We took turns taking care of our daughter, since our hours were offset. When we couldn't fill the gap, we hired a very part time nanny - maybe 10 hours a week at the most. The offset schedules meant that we did sacrifice some hours together as a whole family, but not on weekends. I don't regret it. My daughter has seen both my husband and me cook, clean, nurture, invent games, listen to her, all of it. If she chooses to marry a man, she will never settle for someone who won't be an equal partner, since equal partner is all she knows.
5
Why is a wife at home less equal?
As a stay at home dad, I understand why some wives might want to stay home with the kids. I had much less earning potential than my wife, and I was already doing most of the housework anyway, so it seemed like the smart thing to do. I don't regret the decision either. I've used the time to go back to school, and have a very fulfilling life caring for my children and minding the home. There are times when I feel unappreciated, and there are times when I just really need to talk to an adult for a little while, but, on the whole, I am enjoying this time with my children.
116
I would have killed to be a SAHM. I wanted to stay home, take care of the kids, take care of my husband, and take care of the house. I wanted to do what I wanted to do without a boss peering over my shoulder. I wanted to bake cookies, and make costumes, and have the time and energy to raise my own children, decorate the house, take care of my husband when he was sick, and be there for the cable guy. That would have been Heaven. But my husband wouldn't let me. He told me that I had to work and pay half of the bills (with all of my paycheck) or I had just "married him for the money." So he worked part-time because he could, and between my paid job and my trying to keep up with all of the household chores (because my husband wouldn't do "women's work") I worked full-time, 24/7. Whether or not I was happy was immaterial as long as I brought in a paycheck. He, however, was happy as a clam.
When I embarked on my marriage (I'm 28), I wanted and fully expected my future wife to have a fulfilling career and that we would share the boring housework equally. Who wants to be saddled with that?
But then a funny thing happened. Turned out she wasn't that interested in work. Unlike my 80 hr/wk job, she's perfectly happy working 35. That's great, but the result is that she ends up doing most of the housework. And it's implicitly understood that I'm going to be providing the bulk of our future income. I expect, once we've paid off our student loans and get financially afloat, she'll stay at home (but it's up to her).
I don't understand, anyway, why it's a step back for gender equality if some men want stay-at-home wives. I didn't, but there are an awful lot of good reasons why someone might want that. And this story buries the biggest lede: according to the very data in this story, it is the millenial *women* much more than the men who feel that way. And it is men who have become more "pro-equality" while women's views remain flat.
It is also worthwhile to consider that gender equality in the workplace, while fair and so on, has probably been a major contributor to stagnant wages and income inequality. When you double the workforce supply, the price of labor will go down. I am not sure if this new philosophy has actually been a net benefit to anyone except employers.
But then a funny thing happened. Turned out she wasn't that interested in work. Unlike my 80 hr/wk job, she's perfectly happy working 35. That's great, but the result is that she ends up doing most of the housework. And it's implicitly understood that I'm going to be providing the bulk of our future income. I expect, once we've paid off our student loans and get financially afloat, she'll stay at home (but it's up to her).
I don't understand, anyway, why it's a step back for gender equality if some men want stay-at-home wives. I didn't, but there are an awful lot of good reasons why someone might want that. And this story buries the biggest lede: according to the very data in this story, it is the millenial *women* much more than the men who feel that way. And it is men who have become more "pro-equality" while women's views remain flat.
It is also worthwhile to consider that gender equality in the workplace, while fair and so on, has probably been a major contributor to stagnant wages and income inequality. When you double the workforce supply, the price of labor will go down. I am not sure if this new philosophy has actually been a net benefit to anyone except employers.
58
Every working person's life would be a lot easier with a stay at home spouse. Most of the women I know would love to make enough money to have a stay at home spouse. I do know one - her husband is on permanent disability, but is able to do light housework and cooking most days, shopping sometimes, and supervise their now junior high school child, and can balance a checkbook. She is the only career woman I know who is calm. But she (and he) both recall fondly the days before he got sick. I understand why guys would like a stay at home spouse. The pressures on the stay at home spouse? It depends on family circumstances, I guess.
1
I agreed with your anecdotal argument that couples should decide for themselves what (or rather who) works, but you lost me when you asserted that gender equality somehow contributes to income inequality. I hope the irony of that statement is not lost on you. It sounds as if you're deploring an imaginary situation where a woman makes a fair wage at the expense of a bonus/salary increase to a man already earning more than her? Also, I imagine that the economy has more to do with stagnant salaries than efforts to close the wage gap. Women have been a common sight in the workplace for decades and the market has had time to adjust. And even if your somewhat far-fetched musings were true, equality for women is too important to settle for anything less.
1
The article does not support your idea that millennial women want women to stay at home more than millennial men do. I suggest you reread it.
3
I think the mistake is that we not only need to welcome and accept mothers into the workplace but that the workplace has to acknowledge and accept that fathers have responsibilities at home, too.
"A recent study of 22 European and English-speaking countries found that American parents report the highest levels of unhappiness compared with non-parents, a difference the researchers found is “entirely explained” by the absence of policies supporting work-family balance."
For decades, since the second wave of feminism began, It was clear that without the societal changes in the quote above from the article gender equality would not occur. When the whole economic system continues to be based on traditional gender roles, equality is really hard to achieve. the women, by and large, do burnout, and the statistics reflect this. The wonder is that so many couples/families do indeed share the respnsibiliies of work and family and thus achieve a measure of happiness.
Someday the system will wise up and make everyone more equal and more productive, and happier, too! I am 78 years old and I still have hope for this outcome....
For decades, since the second wave of feminism began, It was clear that without the societal changes in the quote above from the article gender equality would not occur. When the whole economic system continues to be based on traditional gender roles, equality is really hard to achieve. the women, by and large, do burnout, and the statistics reflect this. The wonder is that so many couples/families do indeed share the respnsibiliies of work and family and thus achieve a measure of happiness.
Someday the system will wise up and make everyone more equal and more productive, and happier, too! I am 78 years old and I still have hope for this outcome....
Lots of people could use a stay-at-home "wife," but not too many men - or women - can afford it. (And being the sole bread-winner is a big responsibility.)
Several comments here are from women who say "I need a wife" to handle the chores, and as a single woman who works full-time, often with a part-time job on the side, and owns and takes care of my own home, I can certainly sympathize. Something about that makes me deeply uneasy, though. What we are really saying we want is domestic servants. The problem there is those servants would then be the ones doing all our chores and then having to go home and do their own.
When we talk about women "choosing" whether to work for pay or stay home, we're forgetting that the majority of women of lower socioeconomic status, including the majority of women of color, have always had to work and then go home and take care of their own. To me, real equity will never be achieved until the "normal" work week is shorter, for everyone, male and female alike. That would be the only way for everyone to have enough time to do what they want to do and take care of what they need to without pushing it on to someone else.
When we talk about women "choosing" whether to work for pay or stay home, we're forgetting that the majority of women of lower socioeconomic status, including the majority of women of color, have always had to work and then go home and take care of their own. To me, real equity will never be achieved until the "normal" work week is shorter, for everyone, male and female alike. That would be the only way for everyone to have enough time to do what they want to do and take care of what they need to without pushing it on to someone else.
4
It's bittersweet when studies support suspicions I've developed through personal observation. I can only hope that this is a function of the habit of rebellion that is common between generations and that manifests itself as children rebelling against parents by distancing themselves from parental values and behaviors. Let's hope that as they mature they will embrace and support gender equality in all its forms. My concern, based on work-related encounters with the 18-35ish age group, is that these attitudes could be based in a general lack of relative maturity, particularly among males, and their need to see women as either mother figures or sex objects. One of the most pervasive attitudes I've noticed in Millennials (some women and many males) is resentment, which may be caused by increased competitiveness toward women of all ages for far fewer good jobs than were available to previous generations.
A more important question is whether or not millennial women want a stay-at-home dad as their husband.
1
Maybe so many of millennials feel that way because they would have rather had a parent be home when they were growing up, and they want to give that to their children. And maybe the parent they saw staying at home most often were the moms who showed up at school with snacks and stayed to help the teacher. And maybe those of us who went to work weren't fully cognizant of how they felt out there in the world.
I think most women do what they have to do, do what they want to do, or do what they can do. I don't think there are going to be a lot of women staying home and suffering because their husbands told them what they can't do.
I think most women do what they have to do, do what they want to do, or do what they can do. I don't think there are going to be a lot of women staying home and suffering because their husbands told them what they can't do.
1
I wonder how the study would find the correlation between opinions of young people and the working dynamic of their parents. Often people form their preferences based on what the liked or did not like about their own upbringing.
What I'd hope millenials would want is a relationship with there partner where both parents share the child rearing and home duties equally or in ways that allow both of them to lead meaningful and fullfilling lives..however that is defined for them. I'd want a partner that wanted that for me. For some that means stay at home mom, stay at home dad, or both in the workforce. Most will not really have a choice however.
As the child of a working mother in the 1960s and early 70s, I vowed I would spend more time with my children and pay more attention to them. I found a way to do some freelance work at home while they were in school. Of course, I always hoped that my husband and I would share the job of attending to the children's needs but his greater earning power gave us the usual lopsided traditional apportionment of professional and domestic hours.
Since many Millennials had mothers who worked outside the home, I wonder: do these views represent a referendum on gender inequality or a longing for their children to have attentive, involved parents--or at least one such parent.
Since many Millennials had mothers who worked outside the home, I wonder: do these views represent a referendum on gender inequality or a longing for their children to have attentive, involved parents--or at least one such parent.
1
Quite a lot of the impetus for the women's movement came from economic "necessity" 1950s-60s style. If younger people value "material things" less than their predecessors, they may place more value on a parent being invested in home-family life and the parent of choice among many of them for that role could still be female. Coontz understandably cherry-picks her findings to justify her support for strong family leave policies. I clicked on her italicized link to U. of Leuven Professor Jan van Bavel's article, which painted a macro-picture of the U.S. that was quite different from that conveyed by Coontz.
What few people want to admit is that having children separated from their parents during long days spent at daycare is damaging to them. A baby's first strong attachment is with his or her mother, and the mother is the more important parent during early childhood. I think that's an indisputable and biologically based fact even if it contradicts the reality of modern life where in many or most families both parents have to work. In that sense their can't really be gender equality.
1
Ditto, why weren't millennial women surveyed? Perhaps the real preference is for "stay at home children."
1
One of the problems is that the 40 hour work week (or 50 or 60 hour work week) is the product of an era where only one parent worked - dad could work 40 hours while mom was available to stay home with sick kids, take them to dentist appointments, make dinner, etc. If both parents work 40 hour weeks, there simply is not enough time to do those things - the result is stressed parents, a messy house, and the panicked looks my husband and I exchange whenever our kid is sick and can't go to school. Men and women need more flexible work arrangements, and, as the article suggests, we need universal child care.
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You want all the trappings of a middle class American lifestyle on less than 40 hours a week?! That sounds very entitled.
You do know that that has only ever been true for a small, and fairly privileged, segment of the population.
Working class women have always worked outside the home, from agrarian to industrial societies.
Working class women have always worked outside the home, from agrarian to industrial societies.
1
Think about that, though. In order for there to be a universal childcare, workers would have to bear a higher tax burden to pay for it.
If my husband had to pay higher taxes so that you could choose to work, then we couldn't afford MY choice to stay home to care for and raise my own children.
Now I'm *forced* into the workplace to support *your* dreams and aspirations. Why should this woman lose her autonomy and freedom of choice to financially support your choice? There goes *my* dreams and goals.
That's hardly fair.
If my husband had to pay higher taxes so that you could choose to work, then we couldn't afford MY choice to stay home to care for and raise my own children.
Now I'm *forced* into the workplace to support *your* dreams and aspirations. Why should this woman lose her autonomy and freedom of choice to financially support your choice? There goes *my* dreams and goals.
That's hardly fair.
It's pretty insulting to say that those who want one parent to not work are somehow against gender equality. My wife doesn't have a paying job and I'm pretty sure she considers herself an equal. Our 'egalitarian family arrangement' is for me to work and her to take care of most of the house and family responsibilities. We consider ourselves lucky to be able to make it work with just one income. If I could afford it, we'd both not work and split the house and family chores.
91
Childcare is work. Housework is work.
Perhaps if the stay-at-home parent (why does it have to be a woman? When I lived in Australia I knew almost as many stay-at-home dads as mums) received some sort of compensation-- financial would be good, but there are others-- it wouldn't be such an onerous choice.
Also, if women earned and were promoted equally to men, that would create a fairer context for deciding who stays home.
Perhaps if the stay-at-home parent (why does it have to be a woman? When I lived in Australia I knew almost as many stay-at-home dads as mums) received some sort of compensation-- financial would be good, but there are others-- it wouldn't be such an onerous choice.
Also, if women earned and were promoted equally to men, that would create a fairer context for deciding who stays home.
1
It's pretty insulting to suggest that child care and house work are NOT WORK.
And she SHOULD be paid. At the very least she should receive SS and Medicare payments into her account so that she won't end up living in poverty like a LARGE percentage of widowed women still do (b/c they stayed home).
And she SHOULD be paid. At the very least she should receive SS and Medicare payments into her account so that she won't end up living in poverty like a LARGE percentage of widowed women still do (b/c they stayed home).
I think that the punchline of this article is that the trend toward gender equity as a laudable goal is continuing in countries that offer policies that support famlies. When you have a government that recognizes that polices that bolster family stability - access to healthcare, quality childcare, and education - maximizes the potential of their citizenry, then the citizens actually believe in that potential. Unfortunately that is not the case in the US. The reversal in attitude is more of an acceptance by Millenials of their reality - with no social safety nets and a job market still dominated by baby boomers and aging X-geners whose retirement years are relentlessly pushed off by ever-increasing retirement ages, the reality is that a one stable income partnership may be all that is reasonable for them. They accept that they will not be as financially well off as prior generations, and that there is a level of futility in pursuing material success culture.
I think this is combined with a last-gasp reach by young working class white men and women without college educations who feel increasingly marginalized by a society where their way of life is increasingly under attack. Clinging to traditional roles becomes a badge of pride when you feel that the rest of society is pulling away.
I think this is combined with a last-gasp reach by young working class white men and women without college educations who feel increasingly marginalized by a society where their way of life is increasingly under attack. Clinging to traditional roles becomes a badge of pride when you feel that the rest of society is pulling away.
71
Weirdly, the countries, which you say "support families" see the imploding population, childless families, and resort to importing immigrants from backwards countries.
I think that it speaks volumes that it takes a massive government push and TONS of tax redistribution to make up for what's lost when people give up on traditional marriage. Think about what has to change. The monetary cost to *everyone* to make child-rearing bearable with two workers.
It's unnecessary when *somebody* stays home with the children. (And no. I don't think it has to be the wife. Men are just as capable in the home and some women would go crazy as SAHMs.)
It's unnecessary when *somebody* stays home with the children. (And no. I don't think it has to be the wife. Men are just as capable in the home and some women would go crazy as SAHMs.)
Liberal Feminism had its usefulness when white middle class men's in the West were too high and their unions too strong, and capital needed a rationale to inject the labor market with new labor force in a way to drive down wages.
Now that the women labor force market is already tapped, the unions are already destroyed and automation has advanced a littel bit more in relation to 1945-1966, Liberal Feminism has no use for capitalism anymore. The excess of labor capacity demands people to be rendered idle without a possibility of revolution; it will invent another ideology to adequate this new reality.
Now that the women labor force market is already tapped, the unions are already destroyed and automation has advanced a littel bit more in relation to 1945-1966, Liberal Feminism has no use for capitalism anymore. The excess of labor capacity demands people to be rendered idle without a possibility of revolution; it will invent another ideology to adequate this new reality.
6
Shouldn't the question be - Do wives of millennial men want to stay at home as the family slave? Whew, the NY Times is a backward as the 1950s. Some families have no choice. The article seems to say men have control over women and women should do what men want. It's 1017, NYTimes - Catch up.
64
Based on the graph it appears 1 in 4 women survey want to stay home as the family slave. The article in no way says women should do what men. It is looking at attitudes among men.
I reset this idea. Personally, I believe one partner should always stay at home. I learned this by growing up in a family where both parents worked. I never saw them, and I basically raised myself from the age of 10 onward. I got so used to eating alone that I still cant stand eating with other people.
I dont care which partner stays at home. I wont adopt children until either me or my partner dont have to work, and Im a transgender woman married to another transgender woman.
I dont care which partner stays at home. I wont adopt children until either me or my partner dont have to work, and Im a transgender woman married to another transgender woman.
1
I am confused by this comment. I am a young, single woman currently pursuing her doctorate and hell-bent on a long, successful career. I also want a family. I can say with certainty that it DOES matter what men want. The reason that anyone "should" care about this article is the finding that there is a discrepancy in the views of women and men on this issue. For single women of the dominant viewpoint, it is alarming to see that, increasingly, it is one not shared with our male counterparts. I predict that it also matters for married or partnered "millennial" women how their views on family and gender roles correspond to those of their partners. Note the word partner. Consider what equality and partnership means in the context of this article and discussion.
Do the earth a favor and don't have any kids.
36
What a strange, sexist question! Do men want stay-at-home wives. Why not do women want stay at home husbands?
89
Touché
I assume most women do not want stay at home husbands. Women seem to want men who earn more and to have some disdain for men who earn less and who have a lower level of education. Women talk about Prince Charming. He's tall, handsome, rich, educated. He's a prince. Princes don't work. They just HAVE money. Women don't talk about Security Guard Charming or Accountant Charming or Concierge Charming or Director of photography Charming. They talk about PRINCE Charming. And do not mean the stay-at-home-starving- artist formerly known as Prince Charming (no disrespect intended to Prince).
1
It's a good question. Do they? Do women care if their partner earns less than they do? All very interesting questions.
Who cares what millennial men want? What about what millennial women want?
Staying at home with children is an admirable choice. As is remaining in the workforce after you have children.
And since when do women earn more than men? HA! Has Professor Cassino not heard of the pay gap?
Between this and the recent 2 anti-abortion editorials, I'm starting to consider the NYT anti-feminist and anti-woman.
Staying at home with children is an admirable choice. As is remaining in the workforce after you have children.
And since when do women earn more than men? HA! Has Professor Cassino not heard of the pay gap?
Between this and the recent 2 anti-abortion editorials, I'm starting to consider the NYT anti-feminist and anti-woman.
41
Pay gap repeatedly debunked.
The more important question is why, in 2017, the New York Times is writing an article about what kind of wives men want.
125
What do the women want?
34
Look at the graph. 1 in 4 women want the man to work and they stay home.
My daughter does not use women or men, she or he, she calls everyone "person".
Balance.
Speaking for myself, here is what i would have wanted years ago:
- A few years at home to bond with my babies.
- A ramp to return to the workplace once school geared up
- Enough flexibility to be around after school.
- Some support to keep the home functioning, organized etc
- Enough time to make inroads into the community
- Enough sleep
- A little fun.......
Speaking for myself, here is what i would have wanted years ago:
- A few years at home to bond with my babies.
- A ramp to return to the workplace once school geared up
- Enough flexibility to be around after school.
- Some support to keep the home functioning, organized etc
- Enough time to make inroads into the community
- Enough sleep
- A little fun.......
What a judgy, prescriptive little article. Couples: it does not make you defective if the woman wishes to be a homemaker and the man wishes to work.
131
Or the other way around. And since when is being a homemaker not work?
1
But, according to many women both in the article and commenting here, it leaves women with less power and less sense of self-actualisation.
A lot of millennial men may find themselves single.
A lot of millennial men may find themselves single.
6
Only when both alternatives are available to a couple should we talk about who gets their wish. Child care arrangements are decided mostly due to relative financial feasibility.
Well, I hope those women opting out have strong pre-nups. I left a high-power, high-paying career in response to the purported needs of my husband/family. I was then utterly dependent upon him financially, and that was probably a reason why I stayed in the marriage longer than I should have. I still left eventually, and was able to land a job that is on a similar level to the one I had previously. But I know I am extremely lucky and in the minority. Unfortunately, money still translates into autonomy. I hope women appreciate and understand the ramifications of giving up preferential access to it.
98
I'm convinced that is one of the reasons why the conservatives are so against universal health and child-care. They don't want to give women more incentive to leave marriages or fix the power imbalance inherent in the system. All this talk about supporting "traditional" marriages is about women assuming second class citizenship again.
3
Why don't you ask the question "do millennial women want stay-at-home wives?" Over the years, I have heard many of my female friends who are overtaxed with work and family say in exasperation, "I need a wife." Do millennial women dream of delegating some of their day-to-day responsibilities to good quality domestic help?
25
Some child care and home support help options are about to get "walled off " as they are often entry level jobs for immigrants legal or not.
Yes, please! I would love a househusband! Unfortunately they are nowhere to be found in the Washington, DC area. Especially those that are well read, kind, interesting, and are not competitive.
I'm holding out for a robot.
I'm holding out for a robot.
This is why, 45 years after fighting for equal opportunity and equal pay, women are still not taken seriously in the workplace.
I've learned the hard way to never work with with a management team of men whose wives are all stay-at-home. Because I know that they will always see me the same way they see their wives which is as the little woman who takes care of the house.
I've learned the hard way to never work with with a management team of men whose wives are all stay-at-home. Because I know that they will always see me the same way they see their wives which is as the little woman who takes care of the house.
73
As a professor at a major university in a coastal city, I am not surprised by this essay at all. My students are definitely more traditional in their gender views than was/is my generation (Gen X). But one thing that this essay missed is the perspective of young women--which I think contributes mightily to this phenomenon. Young women are extremely resistant to the term "feminist"--in 15 years of teaching, I have taught few female students willing to use the term or to apply it to themselves. My female students view feminism as an outdated and aggressive ideology, something arcane and deeply alien. They see feminists in much the same way that old-school sexists see them: butch man-haters, who would rather eat their progeny than raise them. I still don't quite understand the origin of their resistance to feminist values, particularly since that very resistance only serves to reinforce the discrimination they will face in "the real world." My best guess is that they unknowingly perpetuating the bone-deep sexism that permeates throughout our culture--it's structural, and thus is very difficult to identify, let alone root out. I hope my students will experience less sexism than women of my generation, but given their refusal to even admit that we still need feminism, I strongly doubt that they are going out into a better world.
58
I think the problem is that the most vocal feminsts have gone off the rails. They are obsessed by abortion while doing almost nothing about affordable day care and other issues that affect women's live. They have gone overboard with title IX, accuse men of being guilty of everything that's wrong with the world and endlessly focus on victimization rather than empowerment. Why would any young woman want that message? My daughter is in a PhD program in the sciences and not one of the many, many women in the department spend any tI've discussing their plight. They are too busy taking advantage of all the opportunities women have today that they didn't used to.
1
Yeah, they'll feel that way until they find themselves 23 years old, with an unwanted pregnancy.
1
I was like that in college, 17 years ago. I couldn't see the sexism all around me and hadn't yet experienced any blatant gender discrimination. In the real world, I learned fast. Now I'm proud to call myself a feminist and proud to have a feminist spouse. I cut the young people some slack but I'm judgmental of anyone, male or female, over 20 and under 60 who doesn't identify as a feminist.
1
I think many Millennials did not like growing up with parents that were always working or running between places. I am sure some felt like fashion accessories for their parents, and many were nothing more than that. It is also clear that Millennials saw their fathers getting laid off from their good college degree requiring jobs, whilst mom was still employed doing some type of traditional "woman's" work.
To speak to men losing due to the gains women have made, that is a huge DUH. There are only so many jobs that need to be done. If we push more people into the workforce as "Feminism" did in the 1970s, you are going to see lower wages and have fewer "secure" jobs for men. Real gender freedom is to have the ability to choose one's life path and not force choices on people because of their chromosomes.
To speak to men losing due to the gains women have made, that is a huge DUH. There are only so many jobs that need to be done. If we push more people into the workforce as "Feminism" did in the 1970s, you are going to see lower wages and have fewer "secure" jobs for men. Real gender freedom is to have the ability to choose one's life path and not force choices on people because of their chromosomes.
14
Gender Equality, for the most part, in the western world has been achieved. Maybe young millennials see that. I was born in 85 and I sure see it. Women and minorities are well represented in my workplace, I think that would be the same case in many other employers around the country.
This change makes me happy, honestly. It shows that our younger generation can critically think. I say that because our media sources, Hollywood and Higher Education are pushing the opposite view these young kids have and their view is holding strong because of what their seeing around them. They notice that the world around them is not as bad as what they see in the News or what Hollywood is teaching or what their college professors are pushing.
Its refreshing to hear.
This change makes me happy, honestly. It shows that our younger generation can critically think. I say that because our media sources, Hollywood and Higher Education are pushing the opposite view these young kids have and their view is holding strong because of what their seeing around them. They notice that the world around them is not as bad as what they see in the News or what Hollywood is teaching or what their college professors are pushing.
Its refreshing to hear.
5
There is overwhelming evidence demonstrating that gender equality has not been achieved. I hope you can see past your immediate experiences (anecdotes) and evaluate the data critically.
"Women and minorities are well represented in my workplace, I think that would be the same case in many other employers around the country. "
You must not work in technology (https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/statistics/reports/hightech/) or engineering (https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/2017/nsf17310/data.cfm) then.
You must not work in technology (https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/statistics/reports/hightech/) or engineering (https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/2017/nsf17310/data.cfm) then.
Were you "born in 85" or are you actually 85 years old? BTW, if it is the former, you are a millenial.
When the media says anything about "millennials" what they really mean are young trendies in Brooklyn or students at UC Berkeley or interns at some magazine in NYC. Never mind the tens of millions of individuals that have absolutely nothing in common with the stereotyped "millennial" other than age. Not every millennial is a blue haired lesbian at a liberal college
11
Where exactly did you find this sample set? Not my experience at all. And if there's one thing I know, it's millenial males. Their dream situation is to have a great job, and a female partner that earns more (but doesn't acknowledge it) and completely takes care of him and the homefront. I don't find them to be particularly paternalistic or controlling. Marriage isn't a goal, per se. In fact dating is an oddly challengING environment. So they all get dogs. I'm not judging, just reporting what I know.
25
Maybe millenial men in Boulder are like that. I live in Rollinsville, and for some reason I just dont find these hipster Boulder men very attractive. Maybe its because half of them are trustafarians in Boulder lol.
They do all have dogs. The average Boulder man: Rides $4000 road bicycle, wears tight jeans when not in Lycra, drives a Subaru, and owns a Austrialian sheep dog with a handkerchief named Ginsberg! Even through all the hipsterism, they still spend 4 hours a day playing video games hahaha.
They do all have dogs. The average Boulder man: Rides $4000 road bicycle, wears tight jeans when not in Lycra, drives a Subaru, and owns a Austrialian sheep dog with a handkerchief named Ginsberg! Even through all the hipsterism, they still spend 4 hours a day playing video games hahaha.
Highly educated I was a stay-at home mother for a while. It was hard because I realized fast that society loses all respect, money was always short, but looking at my daughters I never regretted it once. Concentrating on being a parent enriched my life and my daughters'. It was especially hard to find back into work life. I caught up and I'm happy and content today and as I said never regretted it. At the same time I'm a fighter for equality and my daughters are confident women. It is high time that we as a society come up with solutions that are family friendly while ensuring equality.This ranges from one parent solely stays at home for the first few years, parents both cut back on working hours, parents trade off child care times. There are many models in other countries to check out. All those models have in common that they value family and equality.
32
As a woman who found herself a 'displaced homemaker' after 9 years of marriage, I strongly urge women to make sure you have a degree and marketable skills and keep your hand in even if you do choose to stay at home with your children. Also have a savings with some money of your own. You never know what might happen to your "happily ever after." I certainly didn't expect to find myself a divorcee. Being a SAHM is probably one of the most financially and emotionally risky moves a woman can make. She pays a huge price stepping off that career path because she loses social security, loses the opportunity to move up or find better work when the kids are older and grown and there's no guarantee there will be a husband and kids to 'take care of you' once you get old. Quite frankly, I think this push millenial men are making toward 'stay at home' wives is just a way of keeping women from being fully actualized people and to get cheap labor in the house because they don't want to be the caregivers. If being a housewife and a mother was truly valued, then more men would do it...and they'd probably demand and get more $$ for it, too! LOL Ladies, be careful! When the man starts talking about "needing" a stay at home wife, they're probably saying they "need" to stay in control of the woman...and keeping her dependent.
153
Now this is great advice!
1
Just recently one of those "it'll never happen to me" wives in our circles got dumped. She has not worked since age 21. She's nearly 50. Her lawyer pranced in demanding a huge monthly maintenance stipend in perpetuity. The judge -- a woman -- ordered that the housewife receive $1,500 per month pending the finalizing of the divorce (her soon to be ex husband has a seven-figure nest egg) and told the lawyer "Your client needs to get a job."
Cue major shock to the once-smug SAHM. She filled her days with tennis and golf and poolside lounging for nearly 30 years and is now stocking shelves in the local upscale supermarket where all her friends still shop. It's been quite an interesting dynamic to observe.
Cue major shock to the once-smug SAHM. She filled her days with tennis and golf and poolside lounging for nearly 30 years and is now stocking shelves in the local upscale supermarket where all her friends still shop. It's been quite an interesting dynamic to observe.
5
Agreed. It's the rare man that stays loyal to one woman.
hey I'm a geezer, can I stay home and let my SO go to work. I'll make sandwiches and have drinks ready at homecoming
BTW, in same sex or (soon) plural marriages how does that work
BTW, in same sex or (soon) plural marriages how does that work
2
Studies indicate that lesbians have the most egalitarian relationships (roles shared equally) while gay men have the least.
DO you view "stay at home wives" as human beings, as people, at all ?
You call this equality? Seems more like reverse role play to me.
4
Ironically, real feminists in favor of gender equality in the home, the workplace, and everywhere else should have ditched Hillary and gone for Bernie, whose European socialist politics would have done much more in the long run for gender equality than the empty "victory" of putting a center-right hand-puppet of Goldman Sachs in power, just because she was a woman. What a shock that Europeans have seen no slackening in their support for equality for women, while Americans, including millennials, have! Give us free healthcare, free college, and decent parental leave and chid support policies, like those taken for granted in Europe, and support for feminism in all genders would be hugely strengthened.
14
We had this argument. Hillary lost, but apparently the Bernie Bros need Hillary to hate as much as conservative Republicans do.
Clinton won
Are you kidding me I want to be a stay at home dad while my wife pursues an idea of success.
7
me too.
You mean while she earns a living and provides for the family ?
Maybe many of these millennials grew up in homes where their moms worked long hours and came home too tired to focus properly on their children. Young women have been sold a bill of goods- that you can have it all. You can't. What good is wonderful daycare when your kids want only you. Maybe one take away is that there are sacrifices to be made. You don't need every societal bell and whistle. Get alone with older cars, less stuff, cheaper vacations, make your own food, give up the lattes, etc. It can be done and is extremely rewarding with the knowledge that your children are in the best possible hands - those of their parents.
29
The headline for this article is not just misleading, it is insulting. As an ACTUAL Millennial (not one viewed through a telescope for a dubious study) I can assure you that most of us are enormously progressive in just about every way possible. It affects our thinking about family, economics, race and gender. Don't forget: more Millennials voted for the most progressive candidate to ever have a serious run at the presidency, Bernie Sanders. Back then Millennials were 'pie in the sky' and 'too liberal'....I guess the tune of the NYT changes now to accuse us of being misogynists? Wow. Anything to sell more papers to your late-middle-aged, upper-middle-class readers, I guess.
Is there really anything my generation hasn't been viciously (and erroneously) attacked for yet?
Millennials led the way with Occupy Wall Street, and are more politically engaged and charity-minded than ANY generation before them in recent history (a fact borne out by statistics of the time and money Millennials freely give to causes of their choice compared to previous generations). Then again, what do I know? Apparently I'm a 20-30 something living in my parents' basement, freeloading, not working, obsessed with social media and now a regressive misogynist to boot. Here I thought this whole time that I was a young professor at probably the best university in the entire world (and not living in my parents' basement...neither of whom went to college, I might add). Who knew?
Is there really anything my generation hasn't been viciously (and erroneously) attacked for yet?
Millennials led the way with Occupy Wall Street, and are more politically engaged and charity-minded than ANY generation before them in recent history (a fact borne out by statistics of the time and money Millennials freely give to causes of their choice compared to previous generations). Then again, what do I know? Apparently I'm a 20-30 something living in my parents' basement, freeloading, not working, obsessed with social media and now a regressive misogynist to boot. Here I thought this whole time that I was a young professor at probably the best university in the entire world (and not living in my parents' basement...neither of whom went to college, I might add). Who knew?
11
Millenials rock. They are the ones who will usher the integration of technology in take-it for granted, day to day life. They are the ones who will determine the future of protection of privacy rights, of parameters for cloning and self driving cars, of whether we will seriously address global warming, of the next phase of space exploration.
Millenials, be proud, be loud, and vote. I'll be looking you up from assisted living / pseudo country club (or from the beach if i can still move around in 20 years.)
:-)
Millenials, be proud, be loud, and vote. I'll be looking you up from assisted living / pseudo country club (or from the beach if i can still move around in 20 years.)
:-)
This article and it's authors suggest that wanting a stay-at-home spouse means a person is not interested in an egalitarian marriage? Really??? I think many people who highly value egalitarian marriages want a stay-at-home spouse so that the house runs smoothly and the children are well cared for.
28
You make a good point. Choosing to stay at home does not mean that the marriage is not egalitarian or that the woman is not a feminist. It may simply mean that the couple had options, or mutually agreed on compromises to have a partner be a stay at home parent - sounds a lot better than stay at home wife.
Feminists often choose to be home with the children (and a male can be a feminist as well).
Please think broadly and inclusively.
Feminists often choose to be home with the children (and a male can be a feminist as well).
Please think broadly and inclusively.
why is voting for hillary clinton supposed to be some kind of barometer for gender equality? if anyone ever copped to gender IN-equality it was a woman who coattailed her own achievements on the back of a guy who was a horndog and then tried to say she was making history for all women. Not.
24
Because the older feminists don't understand their own Millennials, children or grandchildren. There's a gap there that Bernie surmounted but Hillary just could not.
10
It is not a barometer. But it is the closest we've gotten (so far) to having a woman with the knowledge and experience to be in the oval office with serious chances of being elected.
@Aubrey: Before she ran for President, Hillary Clinton was a Yale law school-educated attorney, a Senator and Secretary of State. She was much more accomplished and qualified in her own right than, say, George W. Bush. He was a spoiled rich frat boy who experienced a series of business failures before becoming a one-term Texas governor. I bet you voted for him, though.
I've seen it time and again with women who were unpaid servants and lived through the accomplishments of their husbands. Once the marriage grew stale, these husbands looked around, left those wives and married women who worked with them at the office. In the past, those home wreckers were secretaries. Today, those women are peers. Watch out stay at home wives. You may regret that you gave up your own hopes and dreams, while your husband, with your help kept his own, and then some.
84
@JLG: The home-wreckers are the men. The homes and families are theirs, and so is the responsibility.
2
What if a woman didn't marry one of those high-earning husbands? What if he's a retail worker, auto mechanic, or customer service rep? Why does the NY Times ignore the reality of most people? It is this sort of upper-crust ignorance that got Trump elected. We could easily have won over the high-school-grads with-no-college vote if we acknowledged that they actually exist.
58
Most families don't have a choice, whatever generation they belong to.
Get real.
Get real.
32
"Do Millennial Men Want Stay-at-Home Wives?"
Who cares? It's the wife's life & her decision. A wife is not a husband's assistant, employee, servant or mini-me.
Who cares? It's the wife's life & her decision. A wife is not a husband's assistant, employee, servant or mini-me.
346
Neither is a husband to his wife, but don't say that too loudly.
6
It is not just the wife's decision, in the same way that my husband's decision to work or not isure not just his decision.
2
I disagree. When my son was born my wife and I made a joint decision that she would stay home- after a 20 year career, mind you. Had she thought differently, I would have done my best to support her decision, but the fact is we decided together.
Companies should rethink the 9-5 model and the need to work in a office.
I work from home 2 days a week and am in an office from 9:30-2:30 the other days (hours I make myself - I could come and go anytime as I please). This means I can be home when my children return from school. It's perfect and the money is very good. This all-or-nothing thinking (stay home vs kill yourself working) has to stop, as does all kinds of polar thinking (Liberal vs. Conservative; pro-vs anti this-or-that cause; Democrat vs Republican...). Let's think outside the box and expand our imagination a little. Nothing needs to be ALL this or ALL that.
I work from home 2 days a week and am in an office from 9:30-2:30 the other days (hours I make myself - I could come and go anytime as I please). This means I can be home when my children return from school. It's perfect and the money is very good. This all-or-nothing thinking (stay home vs kill yourself working) has to stop, as does all kinds of polar thinking (Liberal vs. Conservative; pro-vs anti this-or-that cause; Democrat vs Republican...). Let's think outside the box and expand our imagination a little. Nothing needs to be ALL this or ALL that.
251
Not everyone works in an office.
1
Agree with you on polar thinking (Liberal vs. Conservative; pro-vs anti this-or-that cause; Democrat vs Republican...)..........the polar thinking we see now is worse than ever. Why? There are people whose incomes depend on the polar thinking. Among them are news media, whether TV, Op/Ed, or so-called 'reporters' whose bias shows to anyone who looks, whether that bias is left or right. Can't sell speeches or books or articles unless one group is being pitted against another.
But I disagree with you about companies rethinking the 9-5 model and the need to work in office. You are making the assumption that the majority of women work in an office. How about the millions of women who work in hospitals, hotels, restaurants, retail stores, law enforcement, manufacturing, construction, railroads and other forms of transportation, public utility companies? Their work can't be done online.
Telecommuting won't work for the woman who drives an 18-wheeler, who is a police officer, who is a surgeon or a nurse. And there are millions of us in all those jobs.
But I disagree with you about companies rethinking the 9-5 model and the need to work in office. You are making the assumption that the majority of women work in an office. How about the millions of women who work in hospitals, hotels, restaurants, retail stores, law enforcement, manufacturing, construction, railroads and other forms of transportation, public utility companies? Their work can't be done online.
Telecommuting won't work for the woman who drives an 18-wheeler, who is a police officer, who is a surgeon or a nurse. And there are millions of us in all those jobs.
I agree. I feel my family has an excellent arrangement, in that my husband works at an office job during traditional "work" hours (8-6 ish, M-F, with some variation,) and I work in health care, 36 hours weekly, divided into three 12 hour shifts, some of which are on weekends. This means that my son only needs babysitting one or two days a week, usually.
I once heard a friend of my husband say he considered watching the kids as "babysitting". He said he wished he didn't feel that way, but he did. I have NEVER heard a woman express the same thought. In fact, quite the opposite. Being with their children, for the majority of women, is love, pure and simple. Men love their children too, but for most, watching their kids, doing the mundane tasks required from the care of small kids--feeding, playing with, enriching, etc.,--feels like a chore to them.
The question is, how does our society allow women to have BOTH the fulfillment of out-of the home work as well as the satisfaction of time with their children? How do we stop demonizing women for the choices they make, by choice or out of necessity? And when will put the needs of our children ahead of our ridiculous concept of 24/7 work? Enough with the cell phones parents! Put them down when the kids are with you!
The question is, how does our society allow women to have BOTH the fulfillment of out-of the home work as well as the satisfaction of time with their children? How do we stop demonizing women for the choices they make, by choice or out of necessity? And when will put the needs of our children ahead of our ridiculous concept of 24/7 work? Enough with the cell phones parents! Put them down when the kids are with you!
7
Society is not going to allow - they have had a hundred years to figure it out, and it is the women themselves who are working out the solutions. They make up half the voters and yet we've never had a serious attempt to devise broad government subsidies for child care, a more liberal family leave set of laws. The women voters have simply not made their mark in that area.
I would be interested to hear what these millennials - in particular those young adults fresh out of their "childhood" - felt about their upbringing, if they came from a household with two working parents and felt they suffered as a result. The grass always looks greener on the other side. My upbringing was a bit different, with my parents divorced soon after I was born, and so I grew up in a single-parent home with a working mom and a father who was near nonexistent. Now, in my '40s, I think to do this day I still find it difficult to connect with other people - a loner all my life; and I believe growing up without a parent around had a lot to do with that. So yes, I would believe it would be nice for my kids, if I ever had any, to have a parent at home, interacting with them on a regular basis in many ways. But of course, I wouldn't mind if I - the father - was that person. Do these surveys bother to distinguish between preferences for "stay-at-home dad's" vs "stay-at-home mom's"? Heck, I admit I would've preferred to have my mom always around as opposed to my dad...
14
This seems like a reasonable reaction to what many millennials grew up watching: two working parents scrambling to balance work, childcare and life in general. I am a baby boomer and mom of two teens, and they see the day-to-day schedule negotiations and crazy home life that can follow when both parents work. But what millennials might not fully realize yet is the deep satisfaction that both work and a family can bring. Ultimately, everyone has to discover what they can live with, and it might be different from what was originally expected.
14
And often, the financial implications make it not so much a "choice" as a necessary way forward that both parents will work.
1
Parenting is a choice that you make, not something unexpected thrust upon you (well ideally anyway). My wife tried to work, but once you have two+ the childcare and taxes make it a poor choice unless you're making 7 figures. (How does Melissa Mayer justify millions for failure, but I digress).
Someone needed to be home. Mom's are generally better at it,but I made more at the time, so I stayed working.
In an ideal world we think we're all equal, but let's be real. While dad's can stay home (I loved it when I did), mom's are generally better at taking care of young children day in and day out. There's a lot to do, its a full time job on its own.
They're grown now, we both work, I cook, clean, we share.
Childcare is never a substitute for parenting, but a necessity for two earner couples to earn two incomes.
Can you do both, sure, but should you.
Someone needed to be home. Mom's are generally better at it,but I made more at the time, so I stayed working.
In an ideal world we think we're all equal, but let's be real. While dad's can stay home (I loved it when I did), mom's are generally better at taking care of young children day in and day out. There's a lot to do, its a full time job on its own.
They're grown now, we both work, I cook, clean, we share.
Childcare is never a substitute for parenting, but a necessity for two earner couples to earn two incomes.
Can you do both, sure, but should you.
17
I am not as surprised as I would have been a year or two ago. Why?
First, the young male Sanders supporters at the Democratic party caucuses here were shockingly anti-woman. Their comments echoed the worst of what the Republicans have said, and included the usual Republican 4- and 5-letter words.
Second, at those caucuses these views were the most striking among the young men who were veterans of the Iraq war, and their families. They were mainly anti-war and anti-woman. To them, it was a zero sum game. Gains for women were losses for men.
Such views were not caused by Trump, but he did encourage them and use them.
First, the young male Sanders supporters at the Democratic party caucuses here were shockingly anti-woman. Their comments echoed the worst of what the Republicans have said, and included the usual Republican 4- and 5-letter words.
Second, at those caucuses these views were the most striking among the young men who were veterans of the Iraq war, and their families. They were mainly anti-war and anti-woman. To them, it was a zero sum game. Gains for women were losses for men.
Such views were not caused by Trump, but he did encourage them and use them.
13
I appreciate your comment. It adds credence to my own question posted about male millennials hating women.
You said,
"An analysis of exit polls by Kei Kawashima-Ginsberg of Tufts University reveals that millennial support for a white woman in 2016 was 10 percentage points lower than their vote for a black man in 2008."
And your point is?
You must realize that emphasizing the gender of the candidate is sloppy reasoning in an article focused on gender. Her approval ratings were much lower than Obama's. You are conflating correlation with causality, ignoring all possible confounding variables.
"An analysis of exit polls by Kei Kawashima-Ginsberg of Tufts University reveals that millennial support for a white woman in 2016 was 10 percentage points lower than their vote for a black man in 2008."
And your point is?
You must realize that emphasizing the gender of the candidate is sloppy reasoning in an article focused on gender. Her approval ratings were much lower than Obama's. You are conflating correlation with causality, ignoring all possible confounding variables.
3
And the context in 2008 (near-collapse of the economy) was a whole lot different than the context in 2016...
1
You totally missed the point. You wrote the whole column without mentioning Bernie Sanders and why millennials overwhelmingly supported him. Instead you focused on Mrs Clinton. Many of these millennials reluctantly voted for her (including my own millennials). It has nothing to do with her being a woman. But it has everything to do with Bernie's VISION for the millennials.
A national, single-payer health care system;
Free public higher education;
Taking on wealth and income inequality;
Preserving Social Security;
Caring for our veterans;
Ensuring civil rights for all;
Combatting climate change;
Reforming Wall Street, and much more.
A national, single-payer health care system;
Free public higher education;
Taking on wealth and income inequality;
Preserving Social Security;
Caring for our veterans;
Ensuring civil rights for all;
Combatting climate change;
Reforming Wall Street, and much more.
13
While I am generally in agreement with the sentiments you express, please do not use the word "free." Education is not free, and neither is health care (and I acknowledge that you did not say health care would be free, but I have heard many Bernie supporters say it). It is just a matter of who pays. Am I willing to share in the cost for other to be educated? You bet, but it is certainly not free.
1
Oh please, these not just Bernie's visions. Give it a rest already.
Part of me thinks we're asking the wrong questions. From a qualitative perspective, I highly doubt a survey questionnaire devised 40 years ago is still an accurate predictor of modern values. As a male, if you've ever received the dog whistle question "So what does your wife do?", you'll understand what I mean. The question is a catch-22 and likely illegal but refusing to answer will cost you the job. The good news is: You learn a lot about an employer when you encounter these attitudes. The bad news is: the answer also says a lot about the individual.
3
Response to the question:
"It's nice of you to wonder about my wife/ spouse, he/she is doing great - but i would rather focus on our discussion of the job opportunities here and what i can bring to the table. Now to go back to your porint about that marketing plan for the mid-western region..."
"It's nice of you to wonder about my wife/ spouse, he/she is doing great - but i would rather focus on our discussion of the job opportunities here and what i can bring to the table. Now to go back to your porint about that marketing plan for the mid-western region..."
Gen Xers were raised by mothers and grandmothers who had no choice about marriage, having children, or being a housewife. They couldn't even get credit cards. Neither of my grandmothers could drive. Luckily, my mom and grandmothers married decent men who didn't abuse them.
Gen Xers have seen what a lack of choices does for a woman's self worth. We know what it looks like to be trapped. We paid attention when the women in our families said get an education and learn to live on your own before you even think about starting a life with someone.
I generally don't bash the Millennials. You can't help when you were born. But I do wish that they would realize that these kinds of choices weren't always a given.
Gen Xers have seen what a lack of choices does for a woman's self worth. We know what it looks like to be trapped. We paid attention when the women in our families said get an education and learn to live on your own before you even think about starting a life with someone.
I generally don't bash the Millennials. You can't help when you were born. But I do wish that they would realize that these kinds of choices weren't always a given.
23
I am all for "EQUALITY" in the job place.
When women have children (it is indeed women who have children) then either they or their "partner" (the term husband has become so passe) better take care of that little person or put up that kid in some professional daycare.
I am absolutely against home day care places because, regrettably, majority of the women operating the home day cares are immigrant women whose husbands work and they are stay at home moms for their kids and carers for the kids of these "high flying" professional equality seeking women.
I am of the opinion that NO immigrant woman should operate a home day care or work in aged care facilities anywhere in the western world. This is because the disrespect shown for the immigrant lady's work by the "local" professional women.
My wife is a qualified registered nurse who stayed home for 9 years to take care of our daughter while I worked, and only now she will return to her "career" and not in an aged care facility---that is a NO NO and NO. A proper hospital and that is it. One lady she knew operated a day care for a few years until a little 3 y/o brat said that the carer slapped him. This unsubstantiated allegation without any proof caused so much stress (police involvement) and grief that she did close her day care, and so did one of her friends and two more will do the same that one allegation could cost so much in lawyers etc.
So, professional women take care of your kids yourself.
When women have children (it is indeed women who have children) then either they or their "partner" (the term husband has become so passe) better take care of that little person or put up that kid in some professional daycare.
I am absolutely against home day care places because, regrettably, majority of the women operating the home day cares are immigrant women whose husbands work and they are stay at home moms for their kids and carers for the kids of these "high flying" professional equality seeking women.
I am of the opinion that NO immigrant woman should operate a home day care or work in aged care facilities anywhere in the western world. This is because the disrespect shown for the immigrant lady's work by the "local" professional women.
My wife is a qualified registered nurse who stayed home for 9 years to take care of our daughter while I worked, and only now she will return to her "career" and not in an aged care facility---that is a NO NO and NO. A proper hospital and that is it. One lady she knew operated a day care for a few years until a little 3 y/o brat said that the carer slapped him. This unsubstantiated allegation without any proof caused so much stress (police involvement) and grief that she did close her day care, and so did one of her friends and two more will do the same that one allegation could cost so much in lawyers etc.
So, professional women take care of your kids yourself.
3
How about if the professional men take care of their kids themselves. Last time I looked, it takes both a man and a woman to make a baby.
We need to get out of this mindset that childcare is primarily (or entirely) the woman's responsibility.
We need to get out of this mindset that childcare is primarily (or entirely) the woman's responsibility.
Closed sircuit cameras are a good way to document day care activity by the operaors.
In Western society, it is part of capitalism and the private entrepreneurs seek to provide needed services at the market rate. Therefore it makes no sense to tell people not to provide day care services. You ignore all the parents, including single and/ or divorced parents and those of limited means who depend on this crucial service on a survival level for their families.
Take off he rose colored glasses and realise that you are referring to a couple of particular and specific situations.
The rest of us are thankful for providers of day care who are by a wide majority professional and caring people.
In Western society, it is part of capitalism and the private entrepreneurs seek to provide needed services at the market rate. Therefore it makes no sense to tell people not to provide day care services. You ignore all the parents, including single and/ or divorced parents and those of limited means who depend on this crucial service on a survival level for their families.
Take off he rose colored glasses and realise that you are referring to a couple of particular and specific situations.
The rest of us are thankful for providers of day care who are by a wide majority professional and caring people.
Here is yet one more reason the Right doesn't want these family friendly policies. Never mind paid maternity leave, they don't want us to get maternity care! Maybe a woman with a bad outcome to her pregnancy will be less likely to start competing against men after it's over (assuming she survives)
5
Good luck with that to the millennial men, considering their female peers are largely better educated then they are and who have better jobs.
People always want what they can't have.
People always want what they can't have.
1
As millennial women, my wife and I would both love to be stay-at-home working wives—oh that's just called retirement, whatever that is.
3
Interesting story...here is my take...
It is not so much that mill.men want stay at home wives, they want their wives first and foremost to do what these women want in conjunction with the needs of the men also.
Many women want to work outside the home, some do not.
The policy of striving for "total equality" ie....men and women make up 50% of all jobs, they are paid exactly equal for every job etc. etc. is ridiculous.
The standard should be to give women every chance to do whatever they want but don't condemn society if a group of them want to stay home.
It is not so much that mill.men want stay at home wives, they want their wives first and foremost to do what these women want in conjunction with the needs of the men also.
Many women want to work outside the home, some do not.
The policy of striving for "total equality" ie....men and women make up 50% of all jobs, they are paid exactly equal for every job etc. etc. is ridiculous.
The standard should be to give women every chance to do whatever they want but don't condemn society if a group of them want to stay home.
7
This story kind of buries the lede. The way work is set up in this country makes it impossible for two-income households to live sanely unless earnings are high enough to hire a nanny. Many Millennials either watched their parents run ragged from trying to juggle everything, or didn't enjoy being raised by a series of relative strangers (I have a 30-year-old friend who cites her absentee corporate attorney mother and rotating nannies as the reason she wants to stay at home when her 1st child is due later this year).
I live in a big, liberal city with lots of working women, and no day care is open past 6. And then you're supposed to take a grumpy kid to the grocery store and spend time on meal prep when you finally get home, exhausted, at 7? I get second-hand anxiety just watching my boss try to manage this kind of setup. It probably works once the kids are older and can fend themselves, but at that point, many women have taken way too much time off to be able to get a professional job.
I think allowing more flexibility whether through part-time work or work-from-home arrangements would help parents keep one foot in the working world while tending to their families when kids are young. But many employers are unnecessarily inflexible, even in office jobs where staff spend half the day browsing the Internet and might as well be at home managing the household in their downtime.
I live in a big, liberal city with lots of working women, and no day care is open past 6. And then you're supposed to take a grumpy kid to the grocery store and spend time on meal prep when you finally get home, exhausted, at 7? I get second-hand anxiety just watching my boss try to manage this kind of setup. It probably works once the kids are older and can fend themselves, but at that point, many women have taken way too much time off to be able to get a professional job.
I think allowing more flexibility whether through part-time work or work-from-home arrangements would help parents keep one foot in the working world while tending to their families when kids are young. But many employers are unnecessarily inflexible, even in office jobs where staff spend half the day browsing the Internet and might as well be at home managing the household in their downtime.
17
I had a corporate attorney mom but extremely awesome nannies who enriched my life immeasurably. My mom's career really blossomed as she worked in VC and private equity contract law in Silicon Valley. She was torn about returning to work, but my sister and I to this day are happy she went--partly because the work was, for a while, fulfilling to her, and we got along great with our nannies.
There's no question there should be better support for quality childcare. Flexibility will never be a big part of some jobs, but with excellent childcare, there doesn't have to be a cost.
There's no question there should be better support for quality childcare. Flexibility will never be a big part of some jobs, but with excellent childcare, there doesn't have to be a cost.
1
Did anyone ask the women what they wanted? The reality is that women who work outside of the home full time, come home and start another full time job. Some women have men who "help out", but the primary responsibility falls on the woman. Who takes off of work when the kid is sick? It is usually Mom. Who takes the kid to the doctor? Usually Mom. Who works out the schedule for the extra curricular activities? Usually Mom. Who does the driving here there and everywhere? Usually Mom. Who goes to school for parents conferences? Usually Mom. I watched women at my office come in every day exhausted beyond belief. They had been up since five, got the kids fed, dressed, and ready for school, got themselves ready, then dropped everybody off where they were going, (not always the same place). Then they worked a stressful job all day, left, picked up everyone, went home, cooked, cleaned, helped with homework, got everyone bathed, packed lunches, dealt with soccer or whatever, then got themselves and kids ready for bed so they could start the whole deal over again. Maybe they got some help with the dishes. Maybe. I could easily see where people would think it is less stress to have one person at home. Boomer women who worked, and thought they were going to "have it all" realized, that meant DOING it all. In some ways they are worse off now than they have ever been.
28
I see much of the same in my own office. And when divorce does occur, the woman gets the kids full-time, on less income, and is still doing all of the work.
There is only one exception in my office and she is from Singapore. She doesn't do any of the cooking, they hire a housekeeper, and she really doesn't like taking care of her youngest kids so avoids it as much as possible. Basically her husband is doing 3/4s of the family work. Now if the roles were reversed, no one would even notice; but because she is a woman everyone snickers behind her back about what a bad mom she is, or else, admires her for having the courage to standing up for herself. Not surprisingly, she is grew up in Singapore, not the U.S.
There is only one exception in my office and she is from Singapore. She doesn't do any of the cooking, they hire a housekeeper, and she really doesn't like taking care of her youngest kids so avoids it as much as possible. Basically her husband is doing 3/4s of the family work. Now if the roles were reversed, no one would even notice; but because she is a woman everyone snickers behind her back about what a bad mom she is, or else, admires her for having the courage to standing up for herself. Not surprisingly, she is grew up in Singapore, not the U.S.
2
Women do have to negotiate (sometimes demand) that their partners pick up a fair share of the household chores and other work to support the family's home life.
Mom-to-be millenial here, working from home for the next few years as my husband is the main breadwinner for our family. We both grew up with parents who both worked and saw how difficult it was to manage (though our parents did indeed manage, and we are grateful). The same complaints about poor parental leave and support for working parents that OUR parents have are the same that we have. Nothing at all has changed. We are expecting our child in a few weeks and my husband gets a whopping one week paternity leave. This is obscene, especially in comparison to every other developed nation in the world.
Combined with a work environment that no longer lets you clock out at the end of the day—as our parents did—and considers 60-80 hour work weeks the minimum, it is no surprise that many of my peers and I are looking at that and saying "what's the point?" The culture of work in the US has become so overwhelmingly "work to live". You are expected to be a slave to your employer at all times.
It's unsustainable and demoralizing—and in the end, for what? You are as disposable to your employer as ever, basic perks like 401ks are quickly going away. When you're just a cog in the machine, there's not much appeal in being super career-oriented. Sure, you'll have more money, but you'll be so stressed out, tired, and a shell of yourself. This is no way to live.
Many people are willing to live in greater frugality and modesty to also have more sanity. We certainly are.
Combined with a work environment that no longer lets you clock out at the end of the day—as our parents did—and considers 60-80 hour work weeks the minimum, it is no surprise that many of my peers and I are looking at that and saying "what's the point?" The culture of work in the US has become so overwhelmingly "work to live". You are expected to be a slave to your employer at all times.
It's unsustainable and demoralizing—and in the end, for what? You are as disposable to your employer as ever, basic perks like 401ks are quickly going away. When you're just a cog in the machine, there's not much appeal in being super career-oriented. Sure, you'll have more money, but you'll be so stressed out, tired, and a shell of yourself. This is no way to live.
Many people are willing to live in greater frugality and modesty to also have more sanity. We certainly are.
32
Dear MB of Boston~You said your Boomer parents were able to clock out at the end of the day while you have to work 60-80 hours at minimum. Have you asked them directly? While this can certainly vary by job/career, trust me when I say this is exactly how it was for most Boomers, too: massive amounts of hours just to survive. Slave labor didn't start for Millennials, it has been going on for many generations. That's why unions are so important.
So are we. I agree completely!
My wife has a bachelor's degree in Communications Disorders. She is an NREMT certified EMT-B and in Colorado is licensed as an EMT-I. She is currently studying for a second bachelor's degree. She is a volunteer EMT who shows up when nobody else will and is literally saving people's lives. She is also a stay at home mom that home schools our 4 children. So shove off telling my wife she should feel ashamed about conforming to gendernormative stereotypes. She loves being a stay at home mom. She loves being with our children every day and she loves that I get home from work and I am in charge of making dinner every night. (Uh oh, now they went and broke the gender stereotypes.) Just because financially it makes much more sense for us to have her home raising our children does not mean I think she is a domestic servant. It does not mean she is not involved in making decisions for our family. It means she gets to do what fulfills her and makes her proud. <-------that is real feminism.
25
By your description she is a working mon - it's just that outside the home, she is a volunteer and unpaid.
That's great if you are all happy with the arrangement and it sounds like you are a very supportive husband.
Unfortunately society is still telling women that they really only have one path in life and that is as wife and SAHM. Doing anything different is going to hurt the husband and kids.
Society needs to be more open to allowing women to choose their own paths that makes sense for them first, then family/marriage wise. It's like saying that all men must be fathers, Catholic and work as accountants. Women are not one size fits all!
Unfortunately society is still telling women that they really only have one path in life and that is as wife and SAHM. Doing anything different is going to hurt the husband and kids.
Society needs to be more open to allowing women to choose their own paths that makes sense for them first, then family/marriage wise. It's like saying that all men must be fathers, Catholic and work as accountants. Women are not one size fits all!
Please, it's so hard to raise a family, no matter how you spin it. Full time parent/stay at home parent - or both working full time- or some combo. It's all REALLY difficult and the American way of raising families is pretty untenable. Families need so much more, and they need each other
Seriously, we can not raise their kids all on their own- that's not the way it's supposed to be! We need community! We need flexibility. Children need many types of caregivers and adults in their lives- mothers, fathers, grandparents, schools, play groups, neighbors, friends, relatives. 2 people really can't do it all on their own - to me that's the out-dated concept. Stay at home parents need help cooking and cleaning and keeping up with the "stuff", and time and resources to pursue other parts of their lives, just as working parents need that too. Unfortunately, most Americans live in a very black and white/overly nuclear system usually, that doesn't support the "tribe".
Seriously, we can not raise their kids all on their own- that's not the way it's supposed to be! We need community! We need flexibility. Children need many types of caregivers and adults in their lives- mothers, fathers, grandparents, schools, play groups, neighbors, friends, relatives. 2 people really can't do it all on their own - to me that's the out-dated concept. Stay at home parents need help cooking and cleaning and keeping up with the "stuff", and time and resources to pursue other parts of their lives, just as working parents need that too. Unfortunately, most Americans live in a very black and white/overly nuclear system usually, that doesn't support the "tribe".
11
Does "community " get a say in who breeds, when & how often, in exchange for all that help?
It depends on her job, doesn’t it? Men expect work to be drudgery; if it’s better than that, you’re one of the lucky ones. So, it’s understandable a husband wants to do better by his wife than what he has to endure. There’s probably a close and indirect relationship between the kind of job and whether stay-at-home seems preferable. In a word, every feminist should be upper-income.
1
I can never understand why people taking care of children in a daycare or as a nanny is "working" but parents taking care of children at home is "not working."
Cleaners coming into a home and cleaning is "working" but parents cleaning a home is "not working", etc.
Cleaners coming into a home and cleaning is "working" but parents cleaning a home is "not working", etc.
17
@SarahK
It's not complicated.
Employer + Paycheck = Working
No Employer + No Paycheck = Not Working
It's not complicated.
Employer + Paycheck = Working
No Employer + No Paycheck = Not Working
Ya think?? The constant stress of two demanding professional careers plus childrearing with no family in town for help is not for the faint of heart. Unexpected sick days are terrifying. Hiring help, assuming finances permit, is not the panacea that people think- they get sick and have life emergencies, too. The younger generation is wise to look for a partner that WANTS to be a stay at home spouse, or a partner with flexible work that can be arranged around the children. To be so stressed as to rarely enjoy your children is tragic and not worth it.
8
This article's premise is a joke.
I care only as much as I care about what millennial women want from a spouse. Hopefully each seeks their potential to the fullest and finds an equal partner.
Is your next article about man shortage or fertility panic?
I care only as much as I care about what millennial women want from a spouse. Hopefully each seeks their potential to the fullest and finds an equal partner.
Is your next article about man shortage or fertility panic?
2
Some things never change. A college old flame (we're talking class of '78) was in town a few years ago asked to meet me for coffee. He talked a lot about himself and said, among other things "I am lucky. My wife never had to work." AS a successful professional woman, I was so taken aback, I said nothing. But I was glad I never married this guy. It was clear that his economic "prowess" was all tangled up with his self image. (Pathetic.) My husband is lucky he married a smart lawyer. Pus, I don't have to sit at home and wait for my allowance.
18
99 times out of 100 nobody loves their kids like mom. Nobody. if it's agreeable and you can pull it off, why not have mom at home. The problem is if you want a decent house in a decent neighborhood it takes two salaries. That's been a problem building up over decades of time. Salaries for most middle class and working class folks suck compared to those at the top of the pyramid and they work very hard too. So mom has to work too and it's not good for anybody including society in general. Kids are grown and it's a different ball game. Life is tough for young families.
10
Your comment that nobody loves their kids like mom is sexist and wrong. Men love their kids just as much, and those that become primary child care parent prove that nurturing and care-giving ability are not related to sex. Part of wanting women to have equal opportunities is to allow men to have the choices, too, without ridicule or questioning, to be primary child care parent.
1
Working mom here. A few thoughts:
1. Let's talk about the ever-growing American work day. My mother worked as an engineer when I was young, but she walked through the door every single day at 5PM, and this was after a 30 min commute. How many full-time employees today do this? Millenials are most likely aware that these days work lasts into the evening for many, and overtime is expected.
2. Parental leave. I will tell everyone I know that ALL parents should take parental leave, where the parent on leave is the PRIMARY caregiver. For me and my husband, that meant sequential leaves--when I returned to work, he took time off. This is important to fostering equality because too often men get relegated to a secondary, helping role with babies and kids because the mom is always around and ready to step in. My husband's paternity leave was great for our marriage and great for his bonding with our son. All the arguments that "women want to be the primary caregiver" or they are "naturally" better suited for it are baloney. Give men a chance, they may actually like and value caring for their children.
1. Let's talk about the ever-growing American work day. My mother worked as an engineer when I was young, but she walked through the door every single day at 5PM, and this was after a 30 min commute. How many full-time employees today do this? Millenials are most likely aware that these days work lasts into the evening for many, and overtime is expected.
2. Parental leave. I will tell everyone I know that ALL parents should take parental leave, where the parent on leave is the PRIMARY caregiver. For me and my husband, that meant sequential leaves--when I returned to work, he took time off. This is important to fostering equality because too often men get relegated to a secondary, helping role with babies and kids because the mom is always around and ready to step in. My husband's paternity leave was great for our marriage and great for his bonding with our son. All the arguments that "women want to be the primary caregiver" or they are "naturally" better suited for it are baloney. Give men a chance, they may actually like and value caring for their children.
24
I guess this is a good thing since my daughter can't get a decent job with a BA and years of experience. She can certainly find a dude to marry! Now that's progress. What a great society we have created! That my sarcasm talking after just feeling overall disgusted with the state of things here and in most parts of the world.
6
@uofcengligh
As bad as it is, it could always be worse.
If she were a "dude", she'd unlikely find a "chick" willing to marry her.
As bad as it is, it could always be worse.
If she were a "dude", she'd unlikely find a "chick" willing to marry her.
I am a not considered a millennial, but my (younger) husband is a millennial. We both have graduate degrees and had fulfilling careers before having children. Ideally, I would have had children and kept my career, but the financial & practical realities of being a working mom don't really allow for that in NYC.
Financially, the cost of childcare for infants ($2500 per month!) was more than 1/2 of my take home pay. Daycare for a 2 year old costs more than double the current tuition at the local state University ($~7000 per year)! I would have been working for peanuts, and then coming home to run the unpaid second shift.
The other reality - my job required 50-55 hr work weeks. The idea of seeing my child for 30 minutes before leaving for the office at 8am, and then returning home at 6:30pm to spend 90 minutes with my child before bedtime made both my husband and I incredibly sad and frustrated. My husband's hours are worse - a minimum of 60 hours a week - in at 7:15am, out at 7:15pm. Plus, he has week-long business trips once a month. What kind of family life does that offer for a child? Had I gone back to work, our son would be raised by the nanny or daycare provider, and babysat by me for 1.5 hours in the evenings before bedtime.
My husband and I wanted me to be a parent to this child, not his babysitter. There will be work opportunities later. He's only a small child for a short few years. This is why millennials are choosing the "traditional" family life.
Financially, the cost of childcare for infants ($2500 per month!) was more than 1/2 of my take home pay. Daycare for a 2 year old costs more than double the current tuition at the local state University ($~7000 per year)! I would have been working for peanuts, and then coming home to run the unpaid second shift.
The other reality - my job required 50-55 hr work weeks. The idea of seeing my child for 30 minutes before leaving for the office at 8am, and then returning home at 6:30pm to spend 90 minutes with my child before bedtime made both my husband and I incredibly sad and frustrated. My husband's hours are worse - a minimum of 60 hours a week - in at 7:15am, out at 7:15pm. Plus, he has week-long business trips once a month. What kind of family life does that offer for a child? Had I gone back to work, our son would be raised by the nanny or daycare provider, and babysat by me for 1.5 hours in the evenings before bedtime.
My husband and I wanted me to be a parent to this child, not his babysitter. There will be work opportunities later. He's only a small child for a short few years. This is why millennials are choosing the "traditional" family life.
12
You think there will be work opportunities later.
The thing that no one tells you is that you will never get an interview, much less a well paid job, once you pass 45-50.
So be careful and keep your hand in your profession as much as you can, even if it means serious part-time work.
The thing that no one tells you is that you will never get an interview, much less a well paid job, once you pass 45-50.
So be careful and keep your hand in your profession as much as you can, even if it means serious part-time work.
3
Yes! Good for you for following your heart and not succumbing to the PC dogma.
I don't think this change in attitude has anything to do with "gender inequality". I think that children who pretty much raised themselves with both parents working long hours, want something more for their children.
They've seen their mothers work themselves to exhaustion both at work and at home, and their father still leave their mother for a younger model. Her working and earning power did not cause any greater respect than it did when women stayed home.
They've seen their mothers work themselves to exhaustion both at work and at home, and their father still leave their mother for a younger model. Her working and earning power did not cause any greater respect than it did when women stayed home.
11
I think it's better for both individuals to work and to share household duties. If they have very young children, though, one of them should stay home (perhaps work from home?) until the kids are old enough to attend school. Traditionally, this has been the woman's job, but I could see a particularly sensitive and empathetic man being capable of doing so. I do think, however, that, in general, women are more loving parents and that a mother's love is more valuable to her young children's positive development than the father's.
1
In the words of Judy Brady, "My God, who wouldn't want a wife?"
What if the feminine word were replaced with one denoting a race or religion? Would we sip our tea, calmly pondering the merits of the desire of some young white people or Christian people who want the other people to become their live-in servants? How said servants would feel fulfilled and cared for and couldn't get the great jobs their benefactors could anyway? No, talking about any other category of humans in this manner would spark outrage. Because it's *just* women, we are free to wax philosophical about it. Give me a break.
What if the feminine word were replaced with one denoting a race or religion? Would we sip our tea, calmly pondering the merits of the desire of some young white people or Christian people who want the other people to become their live-in servants? How said servants would feel fulfilled and cared for and couldn't get the great jobs their benefactors could anyway? No, talking about any other category of humans in this manner would spark outrage. Because it's *just* women, we are free to wax philosophical about it. Give me a break.
6
The answer to the headline is "no". There is a lot of data in here about what men think, but haven't we been dependent on male thought for the existence of our current society, and honestly, haven't we heard enough from men about what they "think". Yes, more felt (key word, FELT) like women's gains had come at the expense of men, but this is the same thing white people feel when people of color demand equality. Equality necessarily means that if you are over-represented, or are disproportionately paid more, when things start to equalize, it will FEEL like you are losing. But men's feelings are not facts. 71 cents to the dollar is a fact.
2
Poor kids! The Trump administration’s immigration policies are going to kill their dream, because wives like these will need to be brought in under H1B visas. There simply aren't enough qualified candidates here in the U.S.
3
I'm 51. Never married no kids. Over the years I came to the conclusion that kids and marriage were not for me. Most the men I dated wanted a Mom/caretaker and I watched my friends fall into that role rather they wanted to or not. I have no regrets.
4
What's pretty clear is that men is any group that is challenged to get work will look to someone else to blame. The alt-right has very conveniently provided them with women.
2
When will we stop measuring the price of child care in terms of how much the mom makes? Several commenters here state that the childcare costs were too much of the mom's salary to make it "worth it" to work. If mom earns X and dad earns Y, the childcare analysis is X+Y minus childcare costs. It is NOT X minus childcare costs. I think women who can afford to choose should choose what they want to do - work, stay home, or some combination that works for them and their family. But the decision needs to be made using the correct math, and with the understanding that even if the "second" salary is a break even with the child care costs, there is something to be gained in the years of experience that will pay dividends later. College costs money too - but it's an investment in your future. The childbearing years of a woman's career are an investment for women who want to work later on. My kids are in middle school now, and I could not have the flexible professional situation I have now if I hadn't put in the years when they were little despite the need for a full time childcare provider. It certainly ate into my profits at the time, but the investment made sense in the end.
5
YES! I am glad you made this important point. There is so much more to the decision to stay at work than the dollars and cents at the end of the day. It can also be an investment in one's longer term career.
1
What if this article were title something less leading -- like:
"Hurdles for Gender Equality in Millennial Couples"
Isn't it time finally that we set up men and women NOT as adversaries in a zero sum game -- but instead perhaps started with the last paragraphs about how couples sharing home & outside-home work are happier overall? And from that, discussed the complexities of this survey and what it might spur for policy discussion/implications...
Imagine what conversations and thought would spring from that vantage point of not making this about women working or NOT working outside the home, but rather about HOW to address the real need of families and family values. Then compare with the commentary here -- with the ideas of people wanting a "wife" (with that word meaning a person who takes care of housework, bills, and children), or putting on the defensive those able to choose to work in the home on those needs full-time.
I wish the Times would consider the titles of articles not for clickbait value, but for encouraging a less adversarial, winner-loser, binary approach to issues, especially when it comes to race or gender discussion.
"Hurdles for Gender Equality in Millennial Couples"
Isn't it time finally that we set up men and women NOT as adversaries in a zero sum game -- but instead perhaps started with the last paragraphs about how couples sharing home & outside-home work are happier overall? And from that, discussed the complexities of this survey and what it might spur for policy discussion/implications...
Imagine what conversations and thought would spring from that vantage point of not making this about women working or NOT working outside the home, but rather about HOW to address the real need of families and family values. Then compare with the commentary here -- with the ideas of people wanting a "wife" (with that word meaning a person who takes care of housework, bills, and children), or putting on the defensive those able to choose to work in the home on those needs full-time.
I wish the Times would consider the titles of articles not for clickbait value, but for encouraging a less adversarial, winner-loser, binary approach to issues, especially when it comes to race or gender discussion.
5
This is a great comment.
2
aren't mellenials having a hard time geeting decent jobs? and hasn't that been the story for 8 years - since these highschoolers were in elementry school?
my husband used to work with a bunch of mellenials and he and his boss were the only ones with wives that work - the gen xers.
this is no surprise - just the story of people who have no confidence around being able to have a great career because of the economy they were raised in.
my husband used to work with a bunch of mellenials and he and his boss were the only ones with wives that work - the gen xers.
this is no surprise - just the story of people who have no confidence around being able to have a great career because of the economy they were raised in.
1
I wish everyone good luck trying to get by on one paycheck. Its noble to have someone available to take care of the kids. If you live in a rural area, in a modest home, and are willing to forego entertainment frills and dining out 5 days a week you will probably be ok. There are always exceptions to any rule.
All the evidence i see tells me that rural is not where the jobs are and, its just plain difficult in today's world to get by on one paycheck. All the best to those who pull it off and are happy with the trade-offs.
All the evidence i see tells me that rural is not where the jobs are and, its just plain difficult in today's world to get by on one paycheck. All the best to those who pull it off and are happy with the trade-offs.
2
I work part-time. Every day that I go to work I feel honored to care for sick children. I also feel like a bad mother and I am stressed and preoccupied with the details of my children and the home. Every day that I stay home I long for the challenge and reward of work and feel that I am wasting my advanced degree cleaning toilets, steaming broccoli, walking the dog and scheduling orthodontist appoints. I am destined for unhappiness!
6
Contentment is a jewel, an ornament that one adorns. No one can take that away from you, and it is price-less. Find contentment within, and unhappiness will disappear like yesterday's clouds.
1
The key is that the US is a primitive, backward country run by right-wingers. Advanced, civilised countries like Denmark and Sweden have strong social safety nets and support for parents working to raise children. We are ruled by oligarchs who are supported by rural primitives.
6
To be flippant: they can eff right off. I'm fifteen years older than someone born in the year 2000 so I'm not sure we have much in common, but this is disturbing. I support men and women's right to stay home if they want to, as well as the workplace flexibility to be able to do that, but a wife should not be expected to stay home with the kids.
3
When our children were young, we lived in a privileged ocean side town in Southern California. I was a stay at home mom.
Sometimes, my husband would take the day off to watch the kids. During the week, when he took them to, say, the tennis club, or similar, he was usually the only father there. The moms would look on him with disdain. He was excluded from everything.
Finally another man started showing up regularly. His wife was a partner at the same firm as my husband. He quit his job to be a full-time stay at home dad. He was received with even less courtesy than my husband. Even some of the wives whose husbands were partners at the same firm as my husband and this man's wife refused to acknowledge their presence. It was like, if you are male and watching after children on a workday, you are a non-person.
So, I wonder? Who was being sexist?
Sometimes, my husband would take the day off to watch the kids. During the week, when he took them to, say, the tennis club, or similar, he was usually the only father there. The moms would look on him with disdain. He was excluded from everything.
Finally another man started showing up regularly. His wife was a partner at the same firm as my husband. He quit his job to be a full-time stay at home dad. He was received with even less courtesy than my husband. Even some of the wives whose husbands were partners at the same firm as my husband and this man's wife refused to acknowledge their presence. It was like, if you are male and watching after children on a workday, you are a non-person.
So, I wonder? Who was being sexist?
7
I am continually amazed that the vast majority of articles in the NYT'S fails to reference Canada. Support for families not only occurs in Europe but it happens right next door. Whether it is health care ( we have a single payer system, that is economically efficient -- 9% of GDP as well as serving our needs, ) banking (our banking system went unscathed in 2008) and our social support is strong ( one year maternity leave, subsidized housing, reasonable unemployment benefits...). Please note your successful neighbour when discussing these issues.
9
Times are hard, and seem to be getting harder. In a competitive economy a husband can gain an advantage from having a stay at home wife -- he can work longer hours.
Even in Canada where we have many maternity benefits, sometimes the woman's career just seems like a drain, or hobby even, syphoning resources away. Careers these days take long hours and seemingly constant educational upgrades. It can simply be easier to have a traditional division of labour.
I don't believe, either, that most families can't afford a stay at home parent. Most families can't after they've already committed to a mortgage, lifestyle and division of labour based on two incomes -- but if they can understand before having kids that they might want an at home parent (which many people do discover only after the kids are born) then I think more people might be able to afford it.
Nor do I buy that couples who do chores along less traditional lines are happier. I think the key is to have a caring spouse, and to somehow not be exhausted all the time -- and if you can figure out how to do that, you'll be happy together no matter who's earning the money, and who's doing the dishes.
Even in Canada where we have many maternity benefits, sometimes the woman's career just seems like a drain, or hobby even, syphoning resources away. Careers these days take long hours and seemingly constant educational upgrades. It can simply be easier to have a traditional division of labour.
I don't believe, either, that most families can't afford a stay at home parent. Most families can't after they've already committed to a mortgage, lifestyle and division of labour based on two incomes -- but if they can understand before having kids that they might want an at home parent (which many people do discover only after the kids are born) then I think more people might be able to afford it.
Nor do I buy that couples who do chores along less traditional lines are happier. I think the key is to have a caring spouse, and to somehow not be exhausted all the time -- and if you can figure out how to do that, you'll be happy together no matter who's earning the money, and who's doing the dishes.
2
Interesting research. Would be helpful to have other countries' results as benchmarks to test the hypothesis about the increased multi-culturalism of the US causing this trend. There also seems to be an increasing binary situation in the US. Any individual (but usually men) can make enough for both people and more OR two people together can make very little. Who wouldn't want to not work and still have a beautiful lifestyle. Perhaps people are beginning to realize that a two-income rat-race doesn't get you very far ahead.
2
It works if you can afford it.
I worked for a huge company that had van pool buses,and a Nursery on its work site. The mom's could see their kids on their break,and eat in the cafeteria at lunch with their kids.
Paid for the nursery kid care with a payroll deduction. The vanpool drivers were rotated and could take the van home on the weekends. A van full of kids.
We did military contract work,aircraft fabrication during the Jimmy Carter years. He promoted it.
I worked for a huge company that had van pool buses,and a Nursery on its work site. The mom's could see their kids on their break,and eat in the cafeteria at lunch with their kids.
Paid for the nursery kid care with a payroll deduction. The vanpool drivers were rotated and could take the van home on the weekends. A van full of kids.
We did military contract work,aircraft fabrication during the Jimmy Carter years. He promoted it.
1
Every young woman I know who is a stay-at-home parent is also running a home-based business of one sort or another. Some are crafting or making art and selling it online. Some are selling products through in-house and virtual parties. Others provide daycare, or run online businesses of one sort or another. This isn't a new phenomenon - some stay-at-home moms have always provided some of these services. What's new, I believe, is that today every one of these young women assume they will do something in addition to being a homemaker and mother and they define that something as a "career" and not as just "a job", and economic necessity is not the only driving force behind their choices.
3
The man as the head of the family has worked throughout history in all cultures and civilizations. This is, starting with Adam and Eve, apparently because God designed it that way.
2
Adam worked at the apple tree farm, did he, while Eve stayed home and made apple sauce?
There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. A rewarding career takes time. A balanced life and raising kids - time. The cost of financial success - time. Everything in life - time. The week is still 168 hours long. Financial freedom comes with a time cost, unless you belong to the heir set.
Any woman who wants to work should have the same opportunities and responsibilities available as any man, at the same pay. But there is no magic involved here - choosing your time priorities is a reflection of your values and needs. Yes, family friendly policies. But jobs that don't demand your relatively complete attention and real-time responsiveness just don't pay as much, or offer as much growth, as those that don't. And - they are disappearing, pretty quickly.
Everyone gets to prioritize their time to find the right order for career, family and financial success. There's nothing wrong with Millenials seeing a different path for themselves, after witnessing the disconnects of their parents.
You can't have it all at 100% across the board. But you can choose the right mix for yourself. And it's not our place to criticize those choices.
Any woman who wants to work should have the same opportunities and responsibilities available as any man, at the same pay. But there is no magic involved here - choosing your time priorities is a reflection of your values and needs. Yes, family friendly policies. But jobs that don't demand your relatively complete attention and real-time responsiveness just don't pay as much, or offer as much growth, as those that don't. And - they are disappearing, pretty quickly.
Everyone gets to prioritize their time to find the right order for career, family and financial success. There's nothing wrong with Millenials seeing a different path for themselves, after witnessing the disconnects of their parents.
You can't have it all at 100% across the board. But you can choose the right mix for yourself. And it's not our place to criticize those choices.
5
I think work culture directly competes with family life. Companies now want workers to work 80hrs at work and home with little pay increase, or force the low income earners to get 2nd and 3rd jobs to get that many hours and thus pay. I wonder how couples even see each other and reproduce with too much of their time taken away from them at work. If they are really high income earners, they can hire housekeepers and babysitters. But labor will always be expensive unless it's slavery so it's probably easier and cheaper to take care of your own children without paying for caretakers. Most of America are too spread out to have a connected communities like those in Europe. So I think if we don't take care of yourselves, no one else would, unless you live really close to nice people who would volunteer to take care of your family.
7
It is easy to see the disadvantages of a situation loom large and under appreciate the advantages. So we can look at hassled parents and think a stay at home parent is the solution and forget that the advantage is a roof over your head.
Some families have two incomes because they want the job, want the challenge, are feeling pretty high up on the Maslow hierarchy. And some have two jobs to avoid food stamps
We sacrifice one thing or another trying to have kids and make ends meet. The desire for a stay at home spouse is a fantasy just like a Ferrari or a giant house with an open floor plan and a chef's kitchen is.
Some families have two incomes because they want the job, want the challenge, are feeling pretty high up on the Maslow hierarchy. And some have two jobs to avoid food stamps
We sacrifice one thing or another trying to have kids and make ends meet. The desire for a stay at home spouse is a fantasy just like a Ferrari or a giant house with an open floor plan and a chef's kitchen is.
2
The whole study is bogus. High school seniors don't know what they want. What authority do they have on this topic? They are all in their tiny enclaves; they have experienced nothing of the working or grown-up world. Most of them have never even been in serious relationships. Ideas change as one ages and there are mortgages to pay. Maybe many of these kids grew up in households where both parents worked and they resent it. When I read this headline, I thought it would have interviews with people in their mid-20s and early 30s, the people who actually have this has a Now question and not children fantasizing about their future adult lives.
6
Whether a wife and mother works does not equl "male dominance in home life." I know dozens of wives who do not work outside the home who would say they dominate and make most domestic-related decisions--and their husbands would agree. Let's stop coupling income with power.
For a family with children, there are two primary needs: income and caring for the home and children. I know I'm not alone in saying that many men simply cannot handle the latter--it's certainly not necessarily the easier of the two.
After returning to work as corporate lawyer at a hard-driving law firm, I remember thinking, "I'll never complain about this job again because it's a hell of a lot easier than being at home with an infant." I know I am not alone in that feeling.
For a family with children, there are two primary needs: income and caring for the home and children. I know I'm not alone in saying that many men simply cannot handle the latter--it's certainly not necessarily the easier of the two.
After returning to work as corporate lawyer at a hard-driving law firm, I remember thinking, "I'll never complain about this job again because it's a hell of a lot easier than being at home with an infant." I know I am not alone in that feeling.
5
Come now, white men just want all the economic opportunity. If they push half of humanity out of line and relegate the dark skinned ones to last place, White Male reigns supreme.
No complexity or parsing, it's the same battle we've been fighting since we crawled from primordial slime. Maybe Fox has managed to promote white male dominance for a few more decades, but humanity will eventually evolve.
No complexity or parsing, it's the same battle we've been fighting since we crawled from primordial slime. Maybe Fox has managed to promote white male dominance for a few more decades, but humanity will eventually evolve.
1
Everybody favors equality until the babies come. That's what pushes the stress level over the edge. And nobody who wants a family is prepared for how much work it's going to be.
Most men think that women are responsible for the lion's share of housework and parenting, while they get to be the designated helpers. I have the utmost appreciation for those who realize that they are 50/50 partners in this gig.
Who can find a virtuous husband? For his value is far above rubies.
Most men think that women are responsible for the lion's share of housework and parenting, while they get to be the designated helpers. I have the utmost appreciation for those who realize that they are 50/50 partners in this gig.
Who can find a virtuous husband? For his value is far above rubies.
9
What is the distribution in education? My wife is currently pursuing her PhD, I have a Masters and am applying for a PhD this fall. We will both work, there is no question about it. It is important to us to both have careers. That being said, we also both want children. I think if you want to make it work, you do. Will my wife (or me) take 5 years until our child gets into school? Absolutely not. That would be a career killer for either one of us. As with most things in marriage, it takes two to raise kids, regardless of what our parents did or didn't do. And in today's economy/housing market/etc it generally takes two to afford to raise kids, especially in the city.
Now, do we need better (can we say any?) maternal/paternal leave policy in America? Absolutely! For a country that talks so much about "family values" we do not value family. If we did, this would be a non-issue.
Now, do we need better (can we say any?) maternal/paternal leave policy in America? Absolutely! For a country that talks so much about "family values" we do not value family. If we did, this would be a non-issue.
7
It is very easy to say what you will definitely do when you have your children if you haven't yet had them. Plans change, feelings change, priorities change and circumstances change. This is true even for people with advanced degrees! The happiest couples I know are those who are willing to reevaluate and be flexible and not necessarily hold their partners to the expectations they had and the promises they made when these considerations were just hypothetical.
1
Come back and tell us how it's working out when you actually have children. It's easy to be ideological when you have no idea of what you're talking about. I will say, if your family can afford a nanny, high-end day care, occasional maid service, and to eat out often because of your two-career household, then you are likely to make it work. If not, one or the other of you will likely end up changing your minds, if not when your children are little, by the time they are in middle/high school.
"That would be a career killer for either one of us. "
The word is "choice".
"And in today's economy/housing market/etc it generally takes two to afford to raise kids, especially in the city."
Hey, move to Detroit. Housing in the neighborhoods outside of mid-town is cheap. You sound like a progressive individual. You'll love it.
The word is "choice".
"And in today's economy/housing market/etc it generally takes two to afford to raise kids, especially in the city."
Hey, move to Detroit. Housing in the neighborhoods outside of mid-town is cheap. You sound like a progressive individual. You'll love it.
My reaction to the title: Who cares? We all have our fantasies, that's hardly news. My reaction to the article: So young men in the US think the solution to punitive economic and labour environment of low pay, few benefits, no job security, no unions, non-existent childcare and policymakers who are working fo the 0.1% is to have everyone in the family depend on one wage-earner? Good luck with that.
6
I think the GOP creating roadblocks to equality will continue to erode equality. The image of Mr. Trump surrounded by men while working on a health care plan to removes prenatal care and free contraception is a strong signal that republicans want men back in control.
5
Interesting article. The benefit of low-cost childcare that would be available to all on, say, a sliding scale I think would be incalculable. However, people also have to want to use it. In Germany, it was considered very bad (societal) to use the available childcare. You would be a 'raven's mutter'. Only the poor and immigrants used it. Also, when people are not in a marriage it's easy to think how you will run things. It's quite another thing in actuality. I also wonder if divorce plays any part in this, where they think having a spouse at home would be ideal? I believe it's a good thing to have a parent home when the children are very young, but I don't think it matters which one. Once the kids are in school, I don't think it matters much, but I could be mistaken about that. This is all based on my and my husband experiences, both our mothers worked and we were 'latch-key' children.
1
As the parent if teenagers, I can tell you first hand that they need as much or more parenting than toddlers.
4
We Mellenials could easily be called "The Jaded Generation". It goes beyond just the Great Recession. We've seen politics at its worst, extremism in the Middle East, the Catholic Church's child abuse scandal, and high interest debt on worthless college degrees. Most importantly, we've seen our parents divorce under the stress of a tightening job market, cruel criminal justice enforcement, and an opioid epidemic.
Growing up and seeing the institutions state, faith, and marriage crumble, how can we not be cynical?
Growing up and seeing the institutions state, faith, and marriage crumble, how can we not be cynical?
4
"We Mellenials could easily be called "The Jaded Generation". It goes beyond just the Great Recession. We've seen politics at its worst,..."
Wow, lucky for them the Greatest Generation, the Boomers, Gen X didn't have to experience those things.
Wow, lucky for them the Greatest Generation, the Boomers, Gen X didn't have to experience those things.
1
Looking at the young men in my family, I see slow development -- slow to finish school, slow to mature, slow to get careers going, slow to leave home, slow to vacation without mom and dad -- and as a result I see rampant insecurity in them. What I and my generation faced at 21 or 23 they are facing as they hit 30 or older. Part of that is choosing either younger or less accomplished women who would, I presume, look up to them. Everything in life has consequences. While they nestle deep into their parents' nests and delay adulthood, there's a price to pay. When maturity finally arrives, will they miss a more challenging partner? A fuller partner?
9
Perhaps the change in attitude is simply due to Millennials being the first generation to suffer the effects of having two working absentee parents? I'm all for equality in the workplace, but I also believe that children benefit from having a parent--male or female--at home during their formative years.
4
I love all the comments from the baby boomers that say that they never thought about it or that both worked and everything worked out fine. They clearly have no idea what it means to have two working parents and young children in today's culture.
My baby boomer parents both had rewarding careers and my dad a well-paying job. What allowed everything to work for them was the fact that my corporate dad got home at 6:00 every day so he could help with dinner, baths, run us to practices and games and help clean up before enjoying an hour or two of relaxation before bedtime. Fast forward thirty years to my life and my corporate husband works from 7:00am to 7:30pm, drives home, then eats dinner in front of his computer and works until about 11:00 every single weekday. My dad used to enjoy his weekends taking us to our games and enjoying a bit of golf now and then. My husband wakes up, checks his email, gives breakfast to the kids, checks his email, plays with the kids for half an hour, makes changes to the presentation that the boss just emailed him about and then works when the kids take naps. He spends his afternoons with us but is always checking his phone for updates so he can work Saturday night too. He is at the same level as my dad. What's the difference? Corporate culture. They don't care that their employees have lives or families.
I'm the one that stays home with the two small children. How can it possibly be any other way? The kids need one of us to be there.
My baby boomer parents both had rewarding careers and my dad a well-paying job. What allowed everything to work for them was the fact that my corporate dad got home at 6:00 every day so he could help with dinner, baths, run us to practices and games and help clean up before enjoying an hour or two of relaxation before bedtime. Fast forward thirty years to my life and my corporate husband works from 7:00am to 7:30pm, drives home, then eats dinner in front of his computer and works until about 11:00 every single weekday. My dad used to enjoy his weekends taking us to our games and enjoying a bit of golf now and then. My husband wakes up, checks his email, gives breakfast to the kids, checks his email, plays with the kids for half an hour, makes changes to the presentation that the boss just emailed him about and then works when the kids take naps. He spends his afternoons with us but is always checking his phone for updates so he can work Saturday night too. He is at the same level as my dad. What's the difference? Corporate culture. They don't care that their employees have lives or families.
I'm the one that stays home with the two small children. How can it possibly be any other way? The kids need one of us to be there.
7
To what degree is their attitude influenced by their own childhoods? Millenials are more likely than previous generations to have grown up with parents who divorced or never bothered to marry. That constant stress leaves memories that they don't want to re-create. Further, it makes simple demographic sense that families from conservative religious backgrounds have more children, and these children, or at least some of them, will remain in that tradition. Look at the difference in family size between Hasidic and secular Jews.
3
It would be interesting to see the results of a survey that considered the breadwinner-homemaker dichotomy without gender. In some ways, having one parent stay home is ideal in terms of development and bonding. It is unfortunate that women have traditionally filled that role, but it doesn't have to be.
2
Why is it unfortunate?
Disappointing statistics, but not wholly surprising. Millennial men will turn out to be like their dads, unable to deal with women in power. We have failed to give men new ways to look themselves and at women. At one point I thought the tide was beginning to change and that stay-at-home dads would become more common. Evidently not. To quote the patriarch-in-chief, Sad.
7
Does anyone here have a Dad who is unable to deal with women in power? Speak for yourself, MP.
Middle class wages are dwindling, and millennial men and women want to raise their kids properly with plenty of attention and education AND equal career opportunities. The reality is that a stay at home partner, regardless of gender, makes sense for a lot of families, and since right now wage equality is far from equal, women more often than not step up to the plate to fill the role their family needs.
Not every situation is the same of course. Still, this problem arises because of the failure of the American system to uphold the family as the nucleus and foundation of this nation, and Millenials address this change out of necessity, not sexism.
Not every situation is the same of course. Still, this problem arises because of the failure of the American system to uphold the family as the nucleus and foundation of this nation, and Millenials address this change out of necessity, not sexism.
2
If many women make more than men that could suggest feminism is less necessary, which is one potential reason for less support for Clinton.
As for the second to last paragraph, people always tend to support free stuff, and they tend to think of parental leave policies as such. It would be more interesting if they were asked explicitly whether they support lower wages in order to finance paid leave.
As for the second to last paragraph, people always tend to support free stuff, and they tend to think of parental leave policies as such. It would be more interesting if they were asked explicitly whether they support lower wages in order to finance paid leave.
1
My father was born in 1934 and I heard him say once that women are sick one week out of the month. This seems to be quite true from what I have seen of many women during my working life, their mood is off or they complain of one thing or another. Italy, is introducing 3 days a month paid time off for women for their monthly affair. So, what is wrong with women taking taking care of the kids if the man is earning sufficient to have a good life until the kids are self-managing. Women already have that one week out of a month headache and add to that stresses of work and child care.
2
The problem is a huge number of people end up getting a divorce and the person who has stayed home for years rather than working and building up experience and higher incomes will find themselves in very low paying jobs. Even those women with good college degrees can find it difficult to be accepted by the work force if they have spent 15 years at home.
15
The progressiveness of our tax code punishes two income households, especially in high tax places like New and California. If the spouse's income pushes the couple up into high marginal bracket it is a strong disincentive to work. In New York city for example if the spouse earns 100k a year and it gets taxed at the 50% rate which is the high end total of federal, state and local rates, and then they spend half of the reminder on child care it is easy to see why someone would choice to stay at home.
3
"The progressiveness of our tax code punishes two income households, especially in high tax places like New and California."
Yeah, I've heard it takes at least $6,456,657.32/year to live a spartan lower middle class life in NY City or San Francisco. Poor them.
Yeah, I've heard it takes at least $6,456,657.32/year to live a spartan lower middle class life in NY City or San Francisco. Poor them.
Gender equality. What is that? Men don't have babies. Men don't have milk producing mammary glands. Men don't have regular visits from their red headed cousin. Women are smaller than men, most of the time.
Etc etc etc etc
One could go on and on. There is no gender equality. Quit complaining and get to work.
Etc etc etc etc
One could go on and on. There is no gender equality. Quit complaining and get to work.
2
No matter how unbiased he thinks he is, when a man has financial control he will use the threat of withdrawing it against a woman to keep her in line with his wishes and intents. If the woman has children the children, even when the man loves them dearly, become hostages for her good behavior. That includes her political behavior as her interests then become what benefits him, rather than what benefits the children and herself.
401
Another answer to the problem I cite is that the working parent should be required by law to pay the stay at home parent so that person has some financial independence. And this will also encourage their working harmoniously together to make decisions for the benefit of the children.
2
I'm not sure what relationship you have been in to think this way- but it could not have been heathy. A real husband would ever do such a thing, it's not like they think "hahaha, I will be nice now, but once we're married I shall control her life!" As a man, to any women out there reading this- if your husband or boyfriend uses his salary (which is really the family's money) to control you then you need to leave. It may be a good idea to take the kids as well since you dont want them thinking that is healthy behavior. Of course, you should talk about the issue first. Be patient, maybe he is super stressed and needs help or needs time to change his behavior. But if there is no improvement in a decent amount of time then you should leave- as hard as it will be.
3
You need to hang around with different men.
1
I think this article must be read with the caveat that the percentage of immigrants in the U.S. in 1980 was 6.2% of the population, and now it is closer to 14% [U.S. Census Bureau]. In addition, the vast majority of these immigrants were born and grew up in traditionally patriarchal societies: Mexico (top), India, other Central and South American countries (next to top, if grouped together), Philippines, etc. [U.S. Office of Immigration Statistics]. It makes sense that if a larger proportion of High School kids grow up in a home that (likely) reflects more patriarchal values, then it follows that a larger proportion of kids will agree that those values are just fine.
4
The writer of this piece continuously refers to "gender equality" when discussing both men and women working outside the home. This subtly implies that gender equality does not exist in a relationship if the woman decides that she would like to be at home and raise her children rather than work outside the home. I find this bias disturbing. Why can a woman not choose to use her education, her talents, her energy and her strengths to care for and bring up her children if that is what she wants to do? To have a husband who is willing to do all the outside earning, while she cares for the children can be a very fulfilling relationship for both parties, if it is consensual on both parts. How does that make them "gender unequal?" We need to get over this terrible disrespect for caregivers who choose and enjoy what they do.
3
Bravo Kathleen!
There are multiple moving parts to this. With greater income and education when are more independent and can act on reasons to leave. And alot of men were able to keep pace with women, even with women's growing education advantage, by working heavily in manual labor, and factory work or auto plants. Those industries took a huge hit, while nursing, media, and teaching, female dominated fields were steady and growing. This surely demoralized men. Add to that womens growing sexual independence during recent history. They can have things on their terms now. Another rebuff of male territory. There is also the view that all things should be viewed through a feminist lens. Like we Democrats often do, pointing out failing to view things through the proper lens can be deflating. But most of the blame goes to men for falling into lazy intellectual views and playing blame game on jobs, foreigners, misogyny, and stand by, always under the surface racism. Easier to blame others for cruel free market forces and lack of foresight on education. And another factor is the lack of sustained effort on marriage, all while we still marry young and many now also push of marriage to late 30's.
2
Maybe it would be beneficial to not jump to the conclusions that one group is trying to oppress another group at every turn. The first argument was that white men are oppressing everyone else, then the focus became men vs women, now millennials vs women? And of course it's racist to exclude non-whites so let's bring them into the mix as well! Apparently wanting the best for your family is now considered an oppressive mindset, seeing as the nuclear family was the staple across the globe since the dawn of evolution with the male being the hunter gatherer and the mother taking care of the family. Women are not forced to stay at home, they can find a partner who accepts whatever their wishes may be, to stay at home or otherwise, if that even is the point of this article. We know it's best for there to be a parent at home to raise the child(ren), and women have evolved biologically, thanks to nature (not the oppressive male), to be the best option for that role.
1
Correction: Men were hunters, women (and children) were gatherers.
Some of the most vile misogynist in America are millennial males. And yet, some of the most enlightened Americans are millennial males. This stark bifurcation has not been seen before in the U.S. male species of any prior generation. The deciding force in the segment who are enlightened, evolved and up to speed normal, instead of predatory and revolting jerks, is due to all ages and prior generations of females not letting their foot off the gas. So, we are left to consider that it takes a big village of women to raise one or two decent young males. At that rate, we can only wish young heterosexual girls luck in finding a guy they can settle down with, let alone stand to be in the same room with.
4
Check out ByeFelipe on Instagram to see the seething, vulgar hatred so many young men have for women, and how fast it comes to the surface if these guys are refused instant gratification.
I've never encountered that from men of my generation (last boomers) -- they have their issues but at least at my same socio-economic level, they have more control, are less insecure and are more respectful. And it's not a function of age -- they were like that when we all were 21 or so. Today's 20ish men -- were they raised differently? Indulged more? Lacking in decent male role models? They certainly are an unimpressive, entitled lot, and that bodes ill for society in many ways.
I've never encountered that from men of my generation (last boomers) -- they have their issues but at least at my same socio-economic level, they have more control, are less insecure and are more respectful. And it's not a function of age -- they were like that when we all were 21 or so. Today's 20ish men -- were they raised differently? Indulged more? Lacking in decent male role models? They certainly are an unimpressive, entitled lot, and that bodes ill for society in many ways.
2
I'd like to see the change within racial categories. The ethnic composition of people 18-25 has changed since 1994. American 18-25 yr olds today are more likely to be hispanic, Muslim and Asian since 1994. It's entirely possible that the change in cultural origin of young people is driving a lack of progressiveness in attitudes towards traditional gender roles. There are some European countries that have seen very little change in ethnic composition of 18-25 yr olds since 1994, so you have to look at which European countries were surveyed and what the patterns of attitudes are within ethnic groups.
2
First of all, women (and men) who stay home with children are working women (and men). I'd argue we worked harder than most men or women I knew who worked outside the home, without any perks, harder than those working parents who told me they often took care of lots of personal, home business on work hours. Granted, they may have been struggling to keep up appearances, but that's not my problem. I chose not to rip off an employer and claim working status so I could have a big ego about it and claim to be a feminist. However I would agree that having been a stay at home mom, that it is more difficult, or has been more difficult for me to re-enter the workforce, and that's wrong. I don't have a solution except to say that people need to be less concerned about their egos and more about their children, if they have them. After all, why have children if you are going to let someone else raise them and want to pay these people low wages? Exactly because it is a brutal, dirty job (also a lot of fun). I have an idea after teaching for a while, though: When people decide to become parents, they should have to take a test to determine their ability to parent. Failure means they don't get to have children. When one of the two stay home, the family should either be granted a large tax deduction or be paid for the many hours of volunteering stay at homes do for the benefit of all children, not just their own, in schools etc.
I love reading and am in the academia. I believe that one of the reasons that
I am an academic is because I had a stay at home mom. After school, as she prepared dinner, my mother patiently listened to my daily reports of what I had learned or read about that day. When I went to college, I missed not being to tell her about my fascination with the periodic table or the Russian revolution.
My mother did not have a university education, and yet she raised an intellectual who is also a member of the academia. Neither my mother nor I were ever
efficient enough to divide our time. We chose to devote 100% of our effort to
being a parent in her case, or professional in my case. For us, it was the right decision. I am so grateful that she chose me.
I am an academic is because I had a stay at home mom. After school, as she prepared dinner, my mother patiently listened to my daily reports of what I had learned or read about that day. When I went to college, I missed not being to tell her about my fascination with the periodic table or the Russian revolution.
My mother did not have a university education, and yet she raised an intellectual who is also a member of the academia. Neither my mother nor I were ever
efficient enough to divide our time. We chose to devote 100% of our effort to
being a parent in her case, or professional in my case. For us, it was the right decision. I am so grateful that she chose me.
3
Interesting, how the mores have evolved in the last two or three generations. In the 1950s the husband was the breadwinner who brought home the paycheck and the wife had equal responsibilities as a homemaker with more children than now and far fewer time-saving electrical appliances. The back yard clothes lines were hung with drying laundry.
There's an old "Honeymooners" program available in which Ralph Kramden is laid off and his wife must get a secretarial job. Kramden is too ashamed to speak, because he "can't support his family." There was room for only one breadwinner, just as there was room for only one Caesar.
The floodgates for labor opened about 1970. Economic considerations had reduced the number of children and appliances took over much of the responsibility for maintaining the household. (Trash compactors, garbage disposals, etc.) Wives, with less responsibility, added to household income by taking jobs, usually of a lesser nature.
Simultaneously the labor market was inundated with newly freed minorities -- African-Americans, Latinos, the disabled. Every TV news channel needed a minority anchor up front.
And the result?
Well, a much larger labor pool applying for the same number of jobs, and buying more consumer goods. The economy is a dynamic system. Wages stopped rising, consumer prices skyrocketed (poor Jimmy Carter got the blame for the resulting inflation), and now it takes two paychecks to run a normal household.
The yea
There's an old "Honeymooners" program available in which Ralph Kramden is laid off and his wife must get a secretarial job. Kramden is too ashamed to speak, because he "can't support his family." There was room for only one breadwinner, just as there was room for only one Caesar.
The floodgates for labor opened about 1970. Economic considerations had reduced the number of children and appliances took over much of the responsibility for maintaining the household. (Trash compactors, garbage disposals, etc.) Wives, with less responsibility, added to household income by taking jobs, usually of a lesser nature.
Simultaneously the labor market was inundated with newly freed minorities -- African-Americans, Latinos, the disabled. Every TV news channel needed a minority anchor up front.
And the result?
Well, a much larger labor pool applying for the same number of jobs, and buying more consumer goods. The economy is a dynamic system. Wages stopped rising, consumer prices skyrocketed (poor Jimmy Carter got the blame for the resulting inflation), and now it takes two paychecks to run a normal household.
The yea
1
I am a psychotherapist with about one third of my practice composed of millennials and, yes, there is a distinct trend toward a more "traditional" view of male-female relationships. The young women expect young men to be the stronger earners, not so that the women can abandon their careers, but so that the women can have the flexibility to have less driven and more family-oriented careers (can anyone see a wage gap coming?). Also, millennials have a very traditional view of courtship, in which the young man takes all the initiative, is the only one with the authority to propose marriage, must buy an expensive ring and must ask the young woman's father for permission to propose to his daughter. (Yes, unbelievable in the this day and age, but true!). Then, 1-2 years go into planning a formal wedding.
And note: None of these millennials would ever think of expecting the government to subsidize their lifestyle choices with tax-payer funded federal mandates. They assume these are choices they must take responsibility for and work out for themselves. The young men and women don't see why their taxes should go to subsidize someone else's wife or husband.
And note: None of these millennials would ever think of expecting the government to subsidize their lifestyle choices with tax-payer funded federal mandates. They assume these are choices they must take responsibility for and work out for themselves. The young men and women don't see why their taxes should go to subsidize someone else's wife or husband.
3
My dream is for more broad support for working parents of all types, such that each family has more flexibility to make decisions about working outside the home that will best fit their needs. The families described in these surveys are limited to those with a man and a woman raising children together. What about families with two dads or single parent households? Single parents especially carry a heavy burden and both they and their children would greatly benefit from more supportive work-life balance professional policies and cultural norms.
3
The headline in this piece drips with implicit gender bias. It infers that men have the power to decide what they'd like women to do rather than giving both partners equal say. What if the headline had read, "Do Millennial Women Want Stay-at-Home Husbands?" All of a sudden we feel a little squeamish, giving women the power to choose what men should do. It takes awhile for the article to get to the point that careers and family are no longer either-or propositions based on gender. If women indeed make up more than half of the labor force, then it's way past time to fully expect working men to take on their fair share of the responsibilities for family and home. And what about same-sex couples? No longer should one partner be expected to work and then "babysit" or "help out," based on gender, nor the other partner expected to stay home with the kids. It's high time to acknowledge that we've entered the era of equal responsibility at work and at home, and that each partner has a say in their own destiny.
4
While I understand the limits of a short article, I take issue with your oversimplification of millennials' views on gender roles. You reduce Obama and Hillary to nothing more than their gender and ethnicity as if those were the primary differences that influenced millennials voting patterns. You also use the data point that millennial men are more likely than earlier generations to say that society has made all the changes needed to create equality in workplace to add to your argument. But this seems more likely to reflect the generational improvement in gender equality in the workplace rather than a higher rate of sexism among millennial men. Inequalities in the workplace were far more visible to men in the past and advocacy efforts regarding sexual harassment were more visible. I have no doubt that when this question is asked of the next generation that they will be even more likely to say that gender equality has been achieved in the workplace even if it hasn't.
I say all of this not because I necessarily disagree with your conclusion but because I would like to see more relevant and useful supporting data.
I say all of this not because I necessarily disagree with your conclusion but because I would like to see more relevant and useful supporting data.
1
Since I became working age in the 1960s, having been abandoned by my family, I worked long decades in low paying and or abusive jobs to earn a living. I finally was able to earn a masters degree which was followed by a well-paying union job. Those 20 years were a constant nightmare but I was able to save for retirement and in 2005, I retired mostly due to exhaustion from the daily battle to keep my head above water. Now I have the job I have always wanted: housewife. I was smart enough not to have children and that really is the secret to any success I may have had. Even today, when I am asked what my ideal job is, housewife is number one on the list. When asked why I never had children, my answer is that it takes too much money to do a good job caring for them.
Feminism is a nice idea but tell that to a waitress at a Waffle House or clerk at a convenience store. Those are the jobs that most people have. They are not facing a "glass ceiling," but rather, a daily uphill grind.
Feminism is a nice idea but tell that to a waitress at a Waffle House or clerk at a convenience store. Those are the jobs that most people have. They are not facing a "glass ceiling," but rather, a daily uphill grind.
3
I see comments on here from millennial women that I can relate with. I am on the bottom side (1980s) of what is considered that generation, and have a sibling at the top side (2000). We don't agree on most things.
First and foremost, I am an educated women that put herself through school, married in college and waited to have a family until five years later. My husband worked while I finished my degree, and I worked while he finished his.
I changed jobs in the first few months after maternity leave, and moved closer to home. My new job allowed me flex time and to bring my child to work with me. No problems, as long as the work gets done.
I am the only mom of my friends that is a parent and works. I believe in equal opportunity for men and women in the work force AND the home life. Someday, if I have the luxury of supporting my husband to be home with our babies, I will. He should do the same. That option should be a choice without families having to live in poverty and/or on government assistance to do it.
This country fought for the opportunity for women to be more than housewives. This new generation isn't going backwards, they are being practical. If I want to work, I should be able to. If I want to stay home, I should be able to make that work also, without living in poverty or having a government program pay for me to do so. It doesn't have to be black and white, and if it does, we haven't come that far after all.
First and foremost, I am an educated women that put herself through school, married in college and waited to have a family until five years later. My husband worked while I finished my degree, and I worked while he finished his.
I changed jobs in the first few months after maternity leave, and moved closer to home. My new job allowed me flex time and to bring my child to work with me. No problems, as long as the work gets done.
I am the only mom of my friends that is a parent and works. I believe in equal opportunity for men and women in the work force AND the home life. Someday, if I have the luxury of supporting my husband to be home with our babies, I will. He should do the same. That option should be a choice without families having to live in poverty and/or on government assistance to do it.
This country fought for the opportunity for women to be more than housewives. This new generation isn't going backwards, they are being practical. If I want to work, I should be able to. If I want to stay home, I should be able to make that work also, without living in poverty or having a government program pay for me to do so. It doesn't have to be black and white, and if it does, we haven't come that far after all.
4
It's the lifestyle. If both husband and wife are working a lot of hours the home fires are dim. Having the wife stay at home is easier on the family from a lifestyle standpoint but often impossible because of the inadequate income.
On average, women are better at child care and men are better at making money, so that division of labor makes sense.
Men who earn less than their wives are slowly but surely emasculated. They often start looking for more submissive women. Women prefer more dominant men. Of course I'm talking about averages here, not each individual case.
The idea that men and women's preferences regarding home and work will ever be the same is absurd. Biology subverts it at every turn.
On average, women are better at child care and men are better at making money, so that division of labor makes sense.
Men who earn less than their wives are slowly but surely emasculated. They often start looking for more submissive women. Women prefer more dominant men. Of course I'm talking about averages here, not each individual case.
The idea that men and women's preferences regarding home and work will ever be the same is absurd. Biology subverts it at every turn.
3
Some of us don't have the energy to work full-time, be a good mother, and take care of the home. For those of us in this low-energy situation, we must decide to either have less income by leaving work and letting the spouse be the primary earner, or get burned out and physically unhealthy continuing to work and take care of other responsibilities. I think the most important thing in a household is recognizing that both partners are equal and working very hard--the tasks just may be different. It's a mental adjustment. Also important for spouses to encourage each other that if they want/need to work again they will be supportive.
120
Another option is not to add more humans to an overpopulated planet that is on the course to total disaster.
1
Completely agree with you--though you left out another option for people with less energy: don't have kids. Some people who don't think they could do both, also know they wouldn't be happy staying home with kids for long....
4
Do men have the energy to work full time, be good fathers, and to their share of caring for the home? Both partners are not equal unless the division of labor is also equal.
5
I have a twenty-year-old son born and raised here in Los Angeles, where it's a sign of social status to adopt a traditional family structure; it means the father is a high-earner and thus has achieved "success". I watched women in my cohort quit successful careers both successful careers and unsuccessful careers in droves, so they could do "what's best for the child(ren)". This works out great -- for a while. But as the years roll on, the power in the marriage inevitably becomes lopsided and ten years later, you have a woman who cannot earn a decent living in a competitive city like Los Angeles (usually part of the reason she quit in the first place) and she is trapped in a so-so to terrible marriage, all for the sake of the children. As a result, in your more "successful" environs (private school, the entertainment business, etc.) it's practically the 1950s. It may only be a coincidence, but the only women I know who have chosen to divorce are those who have their own money. Isn't that interesting? My takeaway is that leaving the workplace for 2-4 years is fine, but leaving for 10-15 is a big risk to a woman's financial, emotional and physical well-being. Europe gets this. America really doesn't want to.
746
Europe is no Utopia. Maternity leaves are not as long as people in the US seem to think they are, child care is still expensive and women in countries like Germany are mommy-tracked worse than they are here.
2
Even leaving the workplace for 2-4 years results in an even bigger wage gap that women -- and it's almost always women -- can never make up. So it doesn't seem fine to me. What would be fine is if BOTH parents left the workplace for 2-4 years, or shared the leave equally.
4
This is the most insightful of the comments I've skimmed on this article. So many women fool themselves into thinking they are equal with the man when he works and they stay at home. But inevitably the power shifts. Some make it, but some do not. The woman is usually the bigger loser when it doesn't.
7
As an executive, a millennial and a parent, I agree that yes, it easier for me to concentrate on work if I know my partner is taking care of the home front. It is also a relief to know that my toddler and six-month old are with a dedicated caregiver who has nothing but their well-being in mind. The thing is, in our case, the stay-at-home parent is my husband. For us, it's about playing to strengths while taking care of our family and our future. I hope every parent has the opportunity to do what they think is best.
50
The lack of policy that promotes work and home life balance, and the lack of universal reliable and affordable child care is another reason why the quality of life in this country is slipping when compared to the rest of the west.
11
my wife and I are baby boomers, both work, and never spent 10 seconds analyzing it
21
its abit unclear what you mean, but Hillary Clinton once remarked "she had never thought to stop and take a breath".
It pains me how seldom this conversation focuses on the fact that most women still make only 78 on the dollar. As long as there is a wage gap that heavily favors men, most couples will continue to elect the man to be the primary breadwinner. I find it hard to believe that if that wage gap was reversed we would still see so many millennials "supporting the superiority of the male-breadwinner family". Whichever partner is making substantially more money will most often be the one to keep their job when it comes down to deciding who will stay home with a child (if the couple decides that is what they want to do). Until women receive equal pay for equal work we won't see real change.
21
That 78-cents-on-the-dollar figure has been debunked a million times. I say that as a woman.
When the earnings of people in comparable jobs are compared, there is a very tiny gap.
Also what people EARN and what they are PAID are two different things that are often conflated in these wage-gap laments.
Let's put it this way: I can pay $20 an hour to each of two workers.
Worker A is available for 40 hours so EARNS $800 that week.
Worker B has other priorities so is only available 20 hours and EARNS $400. Worker B also doesn't put in enough time to gain the skills needed for advancement, or takes time out of the workplace to travel, garden and pursue other endeavors. So Worker A ends up earning $30 an hour a few years down the road while Worker B still can only handle the $20/hour responsibilities. Or the gap has caused his skills to degrade or become commonplace and thus he now fits better in the $15/hour position.
Can worker B complain that he is discriminated against? I don't think so.
LIfestyle and occupational choices account for most differences in what men and women EARN. In general they are PAID on par, in comparable jobs.
When the earnings of people in comparable jobs are compared, there is a very tiny gap.
Also what people EARN and what they are PAID are two different things that are often conflated in these wage-gap laments.
Let's put it this way: I can pay $20 an hour to each of two workers.
Worker A is available for 40 hours so EARNS $800 that week.
Worker B has other priorities so is only available 20 hours and EARNS $400. Worker B also doesn't put in enough time to gain the skills needed for advancement, or takes time out of the workplace to travel, garden and pursue other endeavors. So Worker A ends up earning $30 an hour a few years down the road while Worker B still can only handle the $20/hour responsibilities. Or the gap has caused his skills to degrade or become commonplace and thus he now fits better in the $15/hour position.
Can worker B complain that he is discriminated against? I don't think so.
LIfestyle and occupational choices account for most differences in what men and women EARN. In general they are PAID on par, in comparable jobs.
1
I knew it!
1
"Are we facing a stall or even a turnaround in the movement toward gender equality?"
When the title of a NYT article makes millennials, who I assume the author assumes are male, the subject, and women (wives) the object, I think the answer to this question is clear.
When the title of a NYT article makes millennials, who I assume the author assumes are male, the subject, and women (wives) the object, I think the answer to this question is clear.
29
Something to like about this generation! I think its a good thing that they are critically thinking about whether this societal choice makes any sense in their future and I disagree with the author: its surely not about expanding social programs so men can act like woman and vice versa, rather its about what lifestyle best benefits the partners and children
5
So the Womens Movement drops the ball. Society created an entirely passive generation of millennials and girls want to be taken care of? Giving up their autonomy and independence for a man?
Oh right, they didn't fight for Reproductive Rights, what am I not surprised?
Why not just title this the Regressive American Woman 2.1
So depressing.
Oh right, they didn't fight for Reproductive Rights, what am I not surprised?
Why not just title this the Regressive American Woman 2.1
So depressing.
4
Why am I not surprised that the generation who wrecked our economy blames us for the choices we're left with?
2
Why ask what Millennial men want? How about what Millennial woman want?
I'm a baby boomer woman who worked all her life, including when the kids (2) were small. They were not harmed, we had excellent help. They are grown and gone now and doing very well. We could have lived on one salary, albeit not as nicely, but I had no intention of being home 24/7. It's not how I wanted to live. My husband agreed. It all worked out for everybody. How about we let women decide how they want to handle things? Rather than asking what men prefer. And frankly, if I had had the choice at the time, I also would have like a stay-at-home wife. As long as it wasn't me.
I'm a baby boomer woman who worked all her life, including when the kids (2) were small. They were not harmed, we had excellent help. They are grown and gone now and doing very well. We could have lived on one salary, albeit not as nicely, but I had no intention of being home 24/7. It's not how I wanted to live. My husband agreed. It all worked out for everybody. How about we let women decide how they want to handle things? Rather than asking what men prefer. And frankly, if I had had the choice at the time, I also would have like a stay-at-home wife. As long as it wasn't me.
50
Interesting that immigration in this country wasn't considered as one of the contributing factors to the stall of egalitarian values.
Most immigrants, at least in the high school I work in, come from conservative religious countries or backgrounds. These children are generally very tolerant of all newcomers to the country, but they also hold very conservative values for themselves. I don't see this changing very much for them, but it certainly will change polls and averages in our future.
Immigration figures into this because we now have the highest number of foreign-born residents in our whole history (about 40 million according to the US Census), with almost the highest percentage of population (about 13%, last time it was about that was during the period of 1860-1920s). One in four children under the age of 18 has a foreign born parent.
This is true in my own family too: my father was an immigrant from eastern Europe, and to this day he continues to hold what I consider to be radical conservative ideals where the man at home is king, son is prince, and wife and daughters are servants. And every day of my life I've been grateful my mother is American.
Ironic, isn't it, that the liberal progressive party that is the champion of immigrants and maintains an expansive approach to immigration in general, ultimately will create a much more conservative nation of god-fearing book-worshipping people who will never vote to elect a liberal progressive government.
Most immigrants, at least in the high school I work in, come from conservative religious countries or backgrounds. These children are generally very tolerant of all newcomers to the country, but they also hold very conservative values for themselves. I don't see this changing very much for them, but it certainly will change polls and averages in our future.
Immigration figures into this because we now have the highest number of foreign-born residents in our whole history (about 40 million according to the US Census), with almost the highest percentage of population (about 13%, last time it was about that was during the period of 1860-1920s). One in four children under the age of 18 has a foreign born parent.
This is true in my own family too: my father was an immigrant from eastern Europe, and to this day he continues to hold what I consider to be radical conservative ideals where the man at home is king, son is prince, and wife and daughters are servants. And every day of my life I've been grateful my mother is American.
Ironic, isn't it, that the liberal progressive party that is the champion of immigrants and maintains an expansive approach to immigration in general, ultimately will create a much more conservative nation of god-fearing book-worshipping people who will never vote to elect a liberal progressive government.
15
I am a late boomer and the primary breadwinner. My husband, at the time of our marriage (me: one child; him: two), was home by 1pm most days. He picked up the kids and started dinner. I worked a full 8 hour day, including the drive to and from, away from home 9.5 hours a day. It worked for us. With the on-line gaming; FB; and just in general more internet access we were vigilant through their high school years. Last one in college, and exhaling now.
I suspect, when my kids transition into marriage and parenting they will make the decision that best suits their family just as we did.
I suspect, when my kids transition into marriage and parenting they will make the decision that best suits their family just as we did.
9
The article presents what I think is an important issue. As a consultant, I now deal with lots of professional millennials in a variety of related professions. Almost without exception, the males are difficult to deal with, and Ive been grappling with why. Is it the age difference? Is the insecurities of a tumultuous time to launch a professional career? Recently I lunched with a colleague and we were stunned to find we had both ben struggling with the same problems and had come to the same idea: a lot of these men really behave like they hate women. That's a difficult idea. My colleague and I agreed to keep pondering and talk again. Maybe millennials have old fashioned ideas about sex roles based on power relationships?
We treat women staying at home, or not, as a zero sum game, but there's lots of space in between. Women can easily stay out of the workplace for 5 years and still have a successful career. Forcing them to choose between a career and child-rearing is a cruel choice which women in other advanced countries do not have to make. When I lived in Germany, 40 years ago, there was a creche (a nursery school for very young children) across the street, and I could see parents bringing their children there. I was pregnant at the time, and coming back to the U.S. I knew I would get no such support when my child was born. Norway gives generous parental leave for both parents, and if the father doesn't take advantage of his share, the leave is shortened. When a career can easily last 50 years, it is only humane to allow parents to take a few years off to care for their children. Not providing these services cripples not only women, but families, and also businesses, who lose some of their most promising employees.
20
Do you support generous mandated leave for citizens who choose not to procreate? There are many, many benefits to society of the choice to refrain from producing additional human beings.
1
Sorry, but all of these stories are a big yawn to many child-free singletons out here. And many others who don't subscribe to cisgendered, bourgeoise, heteronormative lifestyle models. Conversations about gender equality go way beyond questions of who stays home and who goes to work. Why are we still stuck suburban 1968? The question of what even constitutes gender in relation to these issues is probably today's more relevant question. And honestly, a lot of us are as equally sick of hearing about the ways millennials and baby boomers do things. There are plenty of us who are not represented by either of these sets or how they are purported to live.
20
"Why are we still stuck suburban 1968? "
A lot of the discussion sounds like Detroit in 1968.
A lot of the discussion sounds like Detroit in 1968.
1
This article has many flawed assumptions. Doing a tiny amount of research reveals the author is a full on Socialist, which would make sense since she seems to think children can be raised equally as well by state funded day care than their Mother. When "equality" is the goal above all else, who cares if the kids are damaged, if they are ever born at all, the families stressed by having no time, and the cost of living rises so that 2 full time incomes become necessary to sustain a family.
10
What about being raised full-time by their father? Does that damage kids too?
1
Consider this millennials, did you voted for trump, or you didn't vote at all? Well, the consequences are that you might not want to be having any children. Elections have consequences and this election more so than normal. If trump doesn't blow up the planet he will surely make it unlivable for both humans and animals from the pollution he unleashes with his removal of all environmental protections. The good new is you might not have to pay back your student loans. Which brings me to another point, how are you going to afford student loans, a stay at home wife, and children?
I think millennial men are saying to their wives & girl friends, do anything you want, just come home every night. A nice blend of the old & the new, a little give & take, loyalty without control.
7
It can't help that millennial men are seeing a particular form of caveman machismo on display with Trump. Bragging about not changing diapers or pushing strollers for any of his kids? What a role model.
This op-ed posed a question to introduce the topic of the article: Do Millennial Men Want Stay at Home Wives? The article starts off with giving an age period from what are considered millennials 1982-2000, and as we become older we face the concept of marriage and family structures. The article covers the topics we inherit traits and family dynamics from growing up within our own families. Because of this each person has a different view of what should be constructed within their family. The op-ed also list the statistics if women should be a stay at home mom, be the head of the house, and decide other important decisions; the answers and stats varied from the age groups. The main context of the op-ed was revealing how society has recently shown a need for gender equality, but due to the ideas ingrained within men about a need for dominance within the house hold it forms a conundrum within the efforts of progression. In my review of this op-ed I believe there is a need for gender equality especially in the work force, but due to these issues of men’s constant need for dominance within the community, family etc. the changes that will want to be made may not happen for a while.
1
The questions were not asked appropriately. Instead of stay-at-home wife what about stay-at-home parent? I was home for a couple of years. Then we both worked for a couple of years, now my husband is home for the foreseeable future. It's was chaotic with 2 little kids and both of us working. Plus, the expense of daycare and craziness when kids are sick made the extra money not worth it. Of course, this is a super luxury because most people could not afford this. We choose having more family time and less stress over more money. I think many younger people agree with this philosophy.
7
We can't have better work-family policies because Republicans. Period, end of story.
17
I don't know about the millennials, but *everyone* wants and needs a stay-at-home wife, of any gender. Who wouldn't like to come home to dinner, and to clean folded laundry, and to people who are glad to see you? And I'm a working woman.
18
I think most of us don't want to live within a "family" context at all. I think we'd like to live in a community bound by love, trust, and respect -- not blood or marriage.
I also think most of us understand that domestic work is at least as important as work done outside the home to ear income. If no one is maintaining the household then it will rapidly fall into a state of squalor, a tragic situation for all, especially if there are children in the household. So somebody(s) has to do housework. It's only practical that the person with less earning potential would stay home and do that work while the person with more earning potential goes out and makes money. Whether that person is a man or a woman or something else is irrelevant. Indeed, these days, it is often the woman who makes the money while the man stays home to keep house and raise children.
I also think most of us understand that domestic work is at least as important as work done outside the home to ear income. If no one is maintaining the household then it will rapidly fall into a state of squalor, a tragic situation for all, especially if there are children in the household. So somebody(s) has to do housework. It's only practical that the person with less earning potential would stay home and do that work while the person with more earning potential goes out and makes money. Whether that person is a man or a woman or something else is irrelevant. Indeed, these days, it is often the woman who makes the money while the man stays home to keep house and raise children.
1
@Nathan Kayhan
Speak for yourself.
The segments of our society that put family first will thrive.
Those that don't, won't.
Speak for yourself.
The segments of our society that put family first will thrive.
Those that don't, won't.
2
Ms. Coontz rightly points out that millennials (or Boomers, or Xers) are too often lumped together solely by their age falling between the two signposts of 17 and 34 with insufficient consideration given to other distinguishing factors such as race, education, income, etc. And yet she proceeds to speculate and derive conclusions on the basis of that same gross generalization. How useful is that?
What she ends up with is a hodgepodge of weak causalities if not outright non sequiturs, such as the "decline in support for “nontraditional” domestic arrangements" arguably stemming from "young people witnessing the difficulties experienced by parents in two-earner families" supposedly leading "some young people" to think more positively of so-called traditional arrangements. Again, how useful is that information without qualifiers? Are these young people religious or secular? Do they reside in liberal or conservative enclaves? Are they black, white, Asian, or Hispanic, each of these needed further subdivision?
I'll pass over the obvious fact that "nontraditional domestic arrangements", by which Ms. Coontz does not mean that the couple is gay or lesbian but rather that they both work, is actually a non-negotiable necessity for many, or that strong cultural trends will skew the answers given to surveys, such as "83 percent of young men rejected the superiority of the male-breadwinner family" in 1994.
The support for paid leave is not served by shoddy stats.
What she ends up with is a hodgepodge of weak causalities if not outright non sequiturs, such as the "decline in support for “nontraditional” domestic arrangements" arguably stemming from "young people witnessing the difficulties experienced by parents in two-earner families" supposedly leading "some young people" to think more positively of so-called traditional arrangements. Again, how useful is that information without qualifiers? Are these young people religious or secular? Do they reside in liberal or conservative enclaves? Are they black, white, Asian, or Hispanic, each of these needed further subdivision?
I'll pass over the obvious fact that "nontraditional domestic arrangements", by which Ms. Coontz does not mean that the couple is gay or lesbian but rather that they both work, is actually a non-negotiable necessity for many, or that strong cultural trends will skew the answers given to surveys, such as "83 percent of young men rejected the superiority of the male-breadwinner family" in 1994.
The support for paid leave is not served by shoddy stats.
2
I would have liked to have read more about the influence single-motherhood has had on millennial attitudes toward family structure, gender roles, etc. It seems to me the analysis presented here is incomplete.
6
What about single-fatherhood?
1
Well-adjusted and happy adults raise well-adjusted and productive future citizens of the world. Wether you find that adjustment with staying at home and caring for your kids or having a fulfilling work life as well as home life is entirely upto the family to decide. It is erroneous to think that your way of life is the only way. Personally for me, being a full time academic physician gives me so much satisfaction & happiness and makes me a better mom in the bargain. I have been lucky to find a wonderful nanny and daycare to help us along the way. My husband is very supportive of my career choices and it would be nice if the world had more people like him than the men in the survey who would like to decide what their spouses should do with their lives.
8
I agree that if you can afford to hire a nanny, maybe a part-time maid, and affordable daycare, children can still be very well adjusted with two full-time working parents. But if you couldn't afford quality daycare and a nanny, then you might see that two parents working full-time is a strain on the family. That's not to say you wouldn't still work (I do myself), but perhaps you would be fulfilled only working part-time and filling in those domestic roles if you are the lower paid spouse.
I've worked, part-time with children and little to zero support network, and it is nearly impossible. My husband, a physician, works long hours (now I will get no sympathy but I don't expect any). We've had nannies, sitters, used day care, after-school, public, private school, tutors, the works. I have finally given up. My kids need me. They want me to drive them. They want me to be at the games. They want me to make them their snacks and dinner. The toll I have put on myself personally is almost unforgivable. My health is failing. It is time to cut-back and focus on what is important. I realize how fortunate my family is to be able to do so. I do not want to go back to the 1950's, but we are all under so much pressure. I think a lot of it has to do with our failing public schools, withering social networks and ferocious parenting expectations, but that's another story. I will go back to work soon and in an even more limited capacity. For now, we will be cutting the cable, and whatever other expenses we can do without.
6
Thank you, Sara for exposing one of the real issues driving all of the who works when & where & how do we pay for all of this? What are we really willing to cut out of our lives to make things more reasonable & less stress- free on a daily basis? American life circa 2017 is beyond expensive for everyone, and especially for those with children. Our wants exceed our needs as never before. The newest gadgets, expensive vacations, status cars and on and on. No wonder both parents have to work! We are a society that is doing all of this to ourselves.
1
I believe the children are our future.
And that scares me to death.
And that scares me to death.
2
Millennial men; after seeing their stay at home mothers toil with little appreciation, respect, or compensation; don't want to stay home. That's not a shocker. Being a stay at home parent is tough work and not for those who grew up coddled and admired for every little thing they did right. Stay at home parenting is a thankless job that requires a selflessness that the millennial generation just doesn't have.
"American parents report the highest levels of unhappiness compared with non-parents, a difference the researchers found is “entirely explained” by the absence of policies supporting work-family balance."
This negates the title of the article and its premise. If the US had paid and equal parental leave and no gender pay gap, this would be a non-issue. Write about our need for those things without implying that men (and women) are happy with this set up.
This negates the title of the article and its premise. If the US had paid and equal parental leave and no gender pay gap, this would be a non-issue. Write about our need for those things without implying that men (and women) are happy with this set up.
6
Just one question. Why do we always have to accept da words of "prominent" experts to say what any person with common sense would say without any think tanks behind them? As always the division is experts vs the herd (us) in all fields. Oh, regarding this article, how should men be expected to change regarding women with the image offered to young people with #45 being a groper and his daughter, I am sorry to say, being an image of a Barbie with all the meanings attached to that doll?
2
What does "disrespecting women" mean? He confessed to (or boasted of) criminal sexual assault.
Everyone is entitled to "disrespect" (what does that neologism mean?) anyone he chooses. No one is entitled to commit sexual assault.
Everyone is entitled to "disrespect" (what does that neologism mean?) anyone he chooses. No one is entitled to commit sexual assault.
4
The underlying assumptions of this article, and so many like it, just fly in the face of reality, if not biology itself. I personally know many women who formerly worked high-paid professional jobs that have opted out of the workforce to stay home and be housewives and mothers.
And they're happy with their choices (the husbands are stoically less so. Imagine that).
This phenomenon is not uncommon.
How many men have the option of opting out of the workforce?
Just as we don't stigmatize couples who embrace "gender equality", we need to stop stigmatizing couples who want "traditional" gender relationships, and traditional families. Many, if not most, couples are happier in them.
We should also stop indoctrinating our children to view traditional gender relationships negatively. Society would benefit dramatically.
Finally: When are we going to put the petty, surreal, hand-wringing aspects of "gender equality" to bed (and stop rewarding it with tenure)?
And they're happy with their choices (the husbands are stoically less so. Imagine that).
This phenomenon is not uncommon.
How many men have the option of opting out of the workforce?
Just as we don't stigmatize couples who embrace "gender equality", we need to stop stigmatizing couples who want "traditional" gender relationships, and traditional families. Many, if not most, couples are happier in them.
We should also stop indoctrinating our children to view traditional gender relationships negatively. Society would benefit dramatically.
Finally: When are we going to put the petty, surreal, hand-wringing aspects of "gender equality" to bed (and stop rewarding it with tenure)?
4
I'm less interested in what millennial (men) want. I'd like to hear what millennial (women) want.
11
Can't speak for them all, but my Millennial daughter doesn't want the burden of too many expectations on her. She wants to be a stay at home mom, and that's all. She is content to work a menial job to make a few extra dollars if needed rather than have a career. While I don't have a problem with her ideas of parenting, I think she has been short-sighted in refusing to prepare for any contingency in which she must support herself. But she is an adult, and I will not rescue her if that happens. It may work out, or it may result in struggle. We shall see. One thing I do think about Millennials is that they should have to bear the consequences of their emotional and impulsive decisions.
This millennial woman has a career, marriage and family. My husband and I negotiate prioritizing those three things as needed depending on needs and schedules. We do it together as partners.
1
Can't help but relate this article to yesterday's NYT Upshot about choosing a suburban school district.
If parents were smart, they would reject dreadful suburban commutes. I parent, work and live in a vibrant urban community. My children have benefitted enormously from many aspects of where we live, but the time saved from commuting is no small thing for my family. Parents who commute from the suburbs always seem to be a frazzled mess. Parents I know who stay at home in the suburbs seem to hate their lives and question every decision they make.
If parents were smart, they would reject dreadful suburban commutes. I parent, work and live in a vibrant urban community. My children have benefitted enormously from many aspects of where we live, but the time saved from commuting is no small thing for my family. Parents who commute from the suburbs always seem to be a frazzled mess. Parents I know who stay at home in the suburbs seem to hate their lives and question every decision they make.
4
I'm so tired of people making stay at homes mom feel guilty for staying at home. FYI, many mothers, given the choice, would stay home to raise their own children. It's lonely, brain numbing work sometimes, but putting your 2 month old in daycare seems to me, my daughters, and so many other women I know a thought beyond comprehension.
Kudos to those women who choose to do it all, I know I couldn't. Bravo for the women who choose to stay at home with their children no matter what they are giving up, and I'm sorry for the women who have no choice! We are all different, and we all choose to raise our families in the way WE see fit. Stop lumping everyone together!
Kudos to those women who choose to do it all, I know I couldn't. Bravo for the women who choose to stay at home with their children no matter what they are giving up, and I'm sorry for the women who have no choice! We are all different, and we all choose to raise our families in the way WE see fit. Stop lumping everyone together!
7
I agree with you. True feminism won't be achieve until we honor and acknowledge the truth of women's more nurturing natures. (alliteration!) Women are overwhelmingly the caretakers of children, the elderly, and the sick....and while I believe there are situational components to this, I also think we lean towards it.
What I would want would be more flexibility in the work[place so it doesn't have to be a choice. I was director level executive at age 34 when I quit. I am now 49 and my kids are teenagers and I would love to go back to work. I have excess time, energy and talent--but not so much of any of it to subjugate it to the rigidity of a corporate job. While I am lucky I have the choice, the reality is I think society would be better for all of us if things were more fluid and less regimented when it comes to work.
What I would want would be more flexibility in the work[place so it doesn't have to be a choice. I was director level executive at age 34 when I quit. I am now 49 and my kids are teenagers and I would love to go back to work. I have excess time, energy and talent--but not so much of any of it to subjugate it to the rigidity of a corporate job. While I am lucky I have the choice, the reality is I think society would be better for all of us if things were more fluid and less regimented when it comes to work.
1
Great comment Kim.
Women should be proud to call themselves "Stay at Home Mom".
There should be no shame or pejorative attached to the title.
"Stay at Home Mom" is a worthy, honorable, wonderful occupation.
Listen to yo mama :-)
Women should be proud to call themselves "Stay at Home Mom".
There should be no shame or pejorative attached to the title.
"Stay at Home Mom" is a worthy, honorable, wonderful occupation.
Listen to yo mama :-)
2
Just like Mother Earth, it is Women who create + nurture.
It is through our mothers, that the Divine brings Love into this world. While a great part of this world recognizes this precept, the abortion that constitutes MSM and public education here doesn't have a clue.
No amount of data or lousy personal opinions will ever change that...
Then again, Commonsense is an Un-common virtue
It is through our mothers, that the Divine brings Love into this world. While a great part of this world recognizes this precept, the abortion that constitutes MSM and public education here doesn't have a clue.
No amount of data or lousy personal opinions will ever change that...
Then again, Commonsense is an Un-common virtue
2
A lot of two-parent families try to achieve work-life balance by having one spouse work from home, work reduced hours, take a few years out of the work force, etc. Because the reality is that modern intensive parenting is not compatible with modern intensive work. My guess is just that millenials want better work life balance than their parents had, because they saw the stress their parents were under.
7
Just from a monetary standpoint, most men cannot afford to provide financially for their families alone. It's an economic necessity for two working parents now more than ever.
4
Leaving aside what men want, any adult who agrees to be the "stay-at-home" partner in a relationship should do some serious career and retirement planning to understand and mitigate the financial risks of the working partner leaving or dying.
25
And have a good pre-nup in place.
1
I often hear the debate centered around the cost of child care and rarely is the issue of lifetime earning power, SS contributions, and retirement funding discussed. Even if you lose money b/c child care costs more than your income for a short period of time, in the end you would likely come out ahead.
1
Completely agree.....
......and do not underestimate the value of volunteering to keep the resume somewhat going.....
I don't pretend to equate volunteer jobs to a career path but if I ever do go back to work, I will be able to show true accomplishments for the time spent at home. It's not an insurance policy, but its' not nothing either....
......and do not underestimate the value of volunteering to keep the resume somewhat going.....
I don't pretend to equate volunteer jobs to a career path but if I ever do go back to work, I will be able to show true accomplishments for the time spent at home. It's not an insurance policy, but its' not nothing either....
1
I have to wonder if some of the change in attitudes is due to the growing number of children in single-parent households, usually headed by the mother. I would not be surprised if young people whose fathers have never been a significant presence in their lives long for a time when two-parent families were the norm. Those whose parents are divorced and who must deal with shred custody arrangements might find the predictability of the traditional household attractive too. Perhaps the reason many millennials would rather revert to traditional gender roles is that from what they've seen, the alternative is not two partners cooperating but either the chaos of joint custody or men's becoming mere sperm donors who are never present at all.
As a college professor for 20 years, I've seen generations of young people come through my classes. In the last few years, it is becoming ever more clear that many students feel "under-parented." In addition to divorces, mothers' entry to the labor market, and shifting expectations around gender roles, the constant distractions of our digital, social media age have deprived young people of meaningful attention from their parents. Take a close look at any family as restaurants, and you're bound to see family members absorbed in their own electric devices--alone together. The Millennial men thinking that they can fill this vacuum by returning to some romanticized past where at least they'll have the full attention of their mothers is really a sad commentary on their own childhood and the yawning gap of parental support they received.
Most major battles for gender and racial equality have been won (at least in the legislative sense) and the battles that are left are thornier and more elusive to solve (namely, unconscious bias). This article does not acknowledge that the fight for equality is subject to the law of diminishing returns, and because of the tremendous gains progressives have made in the last 30 years there are far smaller and fewer problems to fight for, and this will be reflected in peoples opinions because the same urgency to solve these problems cannot be justified as it was 50 years ago.
3
The men at my workplace who have stay-at-home wives are SIGNIFICANTLY more likely to treat their female colleagues worse. If we want to address the issue of women's advancement in the workplace, we have to quit with the faux-libertarianism and actually advocate for women's liberation.
22
The missing question, of course, is whether or not those surveyed assigned a gender to the specific roles. Having one parent specialize in taking care of routine home-based obligations and one parent specialize in generating income is just economics (depending on production rates of course--not to mention an economy that is willing to support living-wages). Millennials are much better at doing the math and at strategic organization than the previous generations... ask them to build something and basically they more inclined to think "blocks and towers" than "genders and discrimination" in my experience.
3
Don't confuse gender equality with gender equivalence.
Gender equality means men and women are equally important. It is an old idea, reflected in various cliches, such as that there is a woman behind every great man, or the importance of motherhood.
Gender equivalence means that men and women adopt the same roles with equal frequency; that they are interchangeable. This defies biology and psychology; men and women differ, not just in minimal biological ways.
Gender equality means men and women are equally important. It is an old idea, reflected in various cliches, such as that there is a woman behind every great man, or the importance of motherhood.
Gender equivalence means that men and women adopt the same roles with equal frequency; that they are interchangeable. This defies biology and psychology; men and women differ, not just in minimal biological ways.
2
To your point:
One pleasant trend in our town is the small number of "stay-at-home" dads. Out of the lot I know, only one has become part of the social fabric of that volunteer mamas--and he happens to be married to a man. The other fathers seem rather isolated.
Things are not equal.....
One pleasant trend in our town is the small number of "stay-at-home" dads. Out of the lot I know, only one has become part of the social fabric of that volunteer mamas--and he happens to be married to a man. The other fathers seem rather isolated.
Things are not equal.....
I suspect that the term "millennial" is so massively broad that it conceals a lot of internal diversity. As a millennial, among the highly educated people I went to school with I don't know anyone who aspires to a "traditional" male breadwinner / female homemaker relationship.
1
My mom's generation worked very hard to have more women in the workplace, to set up child care so that they could work and the kids would be safe and cared for, and worked up until retirement. I'm a scientist and a woman, and I'm shocked to see so many moms at my child's school opting out of the work force. It's critical for young boys and girls to see their moms and dads contributing equally to the work force.
Just confirms what I already saw happening throughout the entire election. "Bernie Bros" weren't just about the ideals of economic equality. Many of them just had fundamental issues with women in power and the naive idea that gender equality was a done deal. I'm continually disappointed in my own generation.
16
In my opinion, change begins in how society views women (and men) who stay at home. The widely-viewed perception is that being "at home" is not work, but something much less than--even leisurely. For most people, it is work. It is work to maintain a home, to raise and rear children, to cook, to clean, to take care of the laundry, pay the bills, to do all these associated tasks. It is exhausting, and it is rewarding. As a woman, nothing irks me more than to see in a divorce decision or an article or what-have-you, for instance, that "husband worked while wife stayed at home with the children."
This kind of work has value, too.
This kind of work has value, too.
Equally of opportunity I agree with 100% and not just for women but for EVERYONE! However, equality definitely does not mean being the same or doing the same thing. Differences are also to be highly valued.
2
It's also completely possible that what millennials are really in favor of is an American economy where a single income could support a family and enable one parent to stay home full time; male careerist and female caretaker are just the most traditional arrangement of roles in this. The possibility of a thriving single-earner household, taken for granted by boomers, was elusive for generation X and now must seem like a mere chimera to millennials.
I wish people would define what they mean by 'good child care'. I worked in the day care industry and an industry is what it is. The best daycare includes minimizing total hours a week in care, delayed entrance into daycare (not after a mere 12 weeks in parental care),consistency of caregiver--as opposed to high turnover and a new caregiver at least every year (this is a challenge of course in a center setting), and low children to caregiver ratios. Anyone who thinks it's great for newborns to be 'cared for' four to a provider is crazy. Very young children are meant to be socialized by adults and older children, not in packs of their own age group in the same room every day with 15 minutes out on an artificial playground. A really good family day home--with few children--beats a day care center any day but they are few and far between.