What government, concerned for the welfare of future generations, would fund indoctrination of its youth with superstition, mythology, metaphysical-shots-in-the-dark, or Sharia Law as being co-equally valid with, or superior to, mathematics, physics, chemistry, astrophysics, and biology? This is a first-class ticket to the recrudescence of the Dark Ages.
9
What level of funding are you referencing? How do you stand on the constitutional right to freedom of religion? Seems to me you need to make a closer inspection of the proposed programs.
1
Make America Great Again -> strengthen public education.
Make the .1% Greater -> defund public education while strengthening private education.
Make the .1% Greater -> defund public education while strengthening private education.
5
How is the public schools defunded.
It is the opposite.
The school system gains because they don't have the expenses they would have if my child went to public school.
They save more then they lose.
It is the opposite.
The school system gains because they don't have the expenses they would have if my child went to public school.
They save more then they lose.
America's hideous oligarchs continuously probe for democracy's vulnerable spots so they can take advantage with their weapons of lies and hypocrisy. What kind of people prey on children's education?
7
It is incredible that "all but five of the 140 schools currently participating in the program are Catholic or Protestant, and the Diocese of Des Moines is among those lobbying for the expansion". Now even the churches are partnering with those in government to prey on the public pursue. This is a whole new era of public-predator partnerships.
4
Prey on the public purse? I think results matter. Time to investigate the quality of education delivered before jumping to conclusions.
My own education was in private, religious schools from 1st grade through 1 year of college - this was back in the day as I'm now 83! My own children received the same kind of education, including graduate school. (Kinda humorous now because not one of us is religiously affiliated!) BUT...we paid all of the tuition, and the schools, which were Seventh-day Adventist, would have been aghast at the idea of any part of the tuition coming from the Government - the SDA Church was a strong supporter of Separation of Church and State. The Government cannot be a part of using tax money to indoctrinate it's citizens into any religion.
8
How much of the time in SDA schools was on "indoctrination"?
How much of the time was on non-religious academics?
If the Government funded the non-religious instruction, how would that be indoctrination into a religion?
How much of the time was on non-religious academics?
If the Government funded the non-religious instruction, how would that be indoctrination into a religion?
Let's just get this basic point straight. Vouchers do NOT allow parents to choose the school they want for their children. Private schools choose the students they want. I don't care how loud you holler outside the door of the toniest, most exclusive school you "choose." If that school finds your child to be academically deficient, or disabled in some way they choose not to deal with or lacking some athletic skill to add value to some school team, you can wave your voucher from now until the end of time. It will buy you nothing. There is a reason why private schools are called "private." They owe you no explanation. You do NOT choose these schools; they choose you. That voucher represents MY tax money going to a school that screens and selects its students based on standards I have no say in. And neither do you.
19
Excellent explanation of why this is not acceptable.
Another republican welfare program for corporatists.
8
I would love to see the response in School Choice circles, when Madrassas and other Islam foundational schools want to also have "Choice", as should be fair.
Would that be greeted with welcome?
Would that be greeted with welcome?
15
Yes, freedom of religion can be difficult for some. How much of an Islamic Fundamentalist School's day is devoted to religious practice? 85%
If only 15% of instructional day is devoted to secular instruction, then maximum Government funding would be 15%. Are we in favor of a pluralistic society? Either we welcome a pluralistic society or not.
If only 15% of instructional day is devoted to secular instruction, then maximum Government funding would be 15%. Are we in favor of a pluralistic society? Either we welcome a pluralistic society or not.
That was a jaw dropper in many conversations I had with voucher supporters, that the second largest recipient was an Islamic school! Fair is fair, considering the number on beneficiary was Christian.
.....Let them pay for it, sorry but my parents sent 4 of their 7 kids on a Cops and postal workers salary and sister spent 40K of her 60 salary to send her 2 kids to Catholic schools and we're black and live in DC. Change funding rules....I live in "New Capitol Hill" average home prices from 500-800K, meanwhile "Old Capitol Hill" 1 block away where homes cost 600-1M ...guess whose school are light years better, I've seen both. Why should my "Tax Dollars" be used to help some Hedge Fund founders kids education.
3
I'm not understanding why the courts have not yet ruled on public money getting spent on religious schools. Even if it goes through a third party, as in AZ, why have these schemes not been rules unconstitutional? If people are given $5000 to educate their children, why can't they choose to give it to public schools? Why are public schools specifically exempted from the choice menu? This is an opportunity for conservatives to get around the debate about public school funding, and the way that poor school districts are shafted by local property tax funding. It is another step back to separate and unequal.
11
Debra, the public money is being spent on non-religious instruction. How is this "unconstitutional"? How do you see public schools as not part of the choice? There are a large number of public charter schools that are most certainly part of the choice in Arizona.
The Supreme Court did rule on school vouchers in 2002. In Zelman v. Simmons-Harris the court ruled 5-4 that an Ohio voucher program did not violate the First Amendment's Establishment Clause because the program is neutral on religion. The Times should have mentioned this fact in its story.
As an atheist I find it abhorrent that my tax dollars go to private schools which inculcate any kind of theology. This is an egregious affront to separation of church and state.
16
Several disabled students at Pella Christian require the assistance of special education aides, who are provided by the local public school district. The public schools lose the money in the form of per student funding, but still must fund handicap services? Just another rip off. Such a policy punishes those who stay in the public system. Well done Iowa legislature. Next the public schools will be ordered to provide bussing to private schools. We really are going off the tracks with no brakes to slow the plunge.
14
Last time I checked providing handicapped services to children should happen where ever a child goes to school. Apparently you prefer that to happen in public school only, thus denying many handicapped students the choice of attending non-public schools. So much for freedom of religion etc. It is beginning to appear that the government preference needs to be no religion to satisfy many NY Times readers.
I went to Catholic school for twelve years, my five siblings went for most of their schooling. It was my mother's choice. We weren't wealthy, but when the tuition bill came, my parents paid it. Very simple. End of story.
10
If Catholic parents can send their children to a Catholic school paid for by the state does that mean that Muslim parents can send their sons to a madrassa at state expense? And what about all those school districts in rural Iowa where there are no other options? Does that mean that those public schools will have less funding? There are whole bunch of problems here that people better think about before they jump in with both feet.
18
I am just waiting for the fundamental Islam-based schools, as should be equally treated!
4
Does a gated community with private roads get tax dollars for road repair and snow removal from the town or city in which hey pay property tax?? Of course not.
Then why should parents/families get tax dollars to send their kids to private schools? This is especially true for religious schools since these violate separation of church and state by teaching views and requiring performance of rituals specific to a set of beliefs irrespective of whether or not the children share those beliefs.
Then why should parents/families get tax dollars to send their kids to private schools? This is especially true for religious schools since these violate separation of church and state by teaching views and requiring performance of rituals specific to a set of beliefs irrespective of whether or not the children share those beliefs.
16
One comment from the interviewed mom stood out. She'd like the state to foot more of her kids' private education so she can save to send them to college? Why should my friends in Iowa fund her kids' private religious education so that those same kids can then go on to college when there are public schools?
13
I simply don't understand how charter school proponents claim that the schools don't drain money from public schools. The tax credits "to help pay their $5211 tuition" isn't made Monopoly money. It comes out of our tax dollars in addition to the money paying for public schools.
I understand that some parents are desperate for a better education for their children who live in school districts with "bad" schools but using charter schools to essentially defund public education is criminal. Public education needs to:
1) The teachers unions need to get real on this and learn to compromise.
2) The administrators need to trim the fat because we all know that there are levels of bureaucracy that do not need to exist.
3) The police (if needed) need to use novel strategies to work with the communities to make schools safer.
4) The parents, students, and communities need to acknowledge that education is important, everyone needs to value it and stay involved and not expect teachers to miraculously educate students. It takes work!
5) The schools need to implement new ideas and modalities to help all students learn since all students don't have the same learning styles. This means more aides in the classroom.
This "charter school" drive needs to end. Especially since these charter schools are for-profit and sometimes religious. Someone is getting rich by ginning up fear of public education while being quite ignorant. I'm looking at you, Secretary DeVos.
I understand that some parents are desperate for a better education for their children who live in school districts with "bad" schools but using charter schools to essentially defund public education is criminal. Public education needs to:
1) The teachers unions need to get real on this and learn to compromise.
2) The administrators need to trim the fat because we all know that there are levels of bureaucracy that do not need to exist.
3) The police (if needed) need to use novel strategies to work with the communities to make schools safer.
4) The parents, students, and communities need to acknowledge that education is important, everyone needs to value it and stay involved and not expect teachers to miraculously educate students. It takes work!
5) The schools need to implement new ideas and modalities to help all students learn since all students don't have the same learning styles. This means more aides in the classroom.
This "charter school" drive needs to end. Especially since these charter schools are for-profit and sometimes religious. Someone is getting rich by ginning up fear of public education while being quite ignorant. I'm looking at you, Secretary DeVos.
21
Charter Schools are public schools. You're mixing apples and oranges. This is money going to private entities.
1
I suggest you look at the huge increases in student performance in Arizona since the advent of charter school legislation. This idea of choice is the defunding of education is absurd. Increased choice in AZ has coincided with a large increase in student performance as seen in NAEP testing.
In Washington State, there are no "for profit" charter schools and charter schools must at a minimum pay the statewide teachers salary schedule. There are no "religious" charter schools either. .... Different states have different rules and that is a good thing.
'School Choice' is code for 'deconstructionism,' and not just deconstructionism of public education, but of social security, of health care, and of our entire civil infrastructure. Why? To benefit the aristocracy at the expense of the people. I praise the NYT and our free press; never have i been prouder to be living in a free country with a free press. However, the press must control the narrative. Replace the word 'choice' with the word 'for-profits' in this article,, for example, and my point makes itself. Great work NYT, but you should control the narrative, not Steve Bannon.
1
Almost all of the money from Ohio's main tuition voucher programs - 97 percent of it - flows to private religious schools, a Plain Dealer examination of records from the 2015-16 school year shows.
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2017/03/almost_all_of_ohios_vou...
And what the article doesn't say is almost all of the religious schools outside of the Cleveland area are now in the suburbs. Religious schools have closed in the cities, voucher schools last only 2 or 3 years then close.
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2017/03/almost_all_of_ohios_vou...
And what the article doesn't say is almost all of the religious schools outside of the Cleveland area are now in the suburbs. Religious schools have closed in the cities, voucher schools last only 2 or 3 years then close.
4
Thanks for the Plain Dealer link. It should be noted that the voucher amount does not cover the full cost to educate the student. If these students were suddenly placed in the public system the cost to the state would be much larger than the voucher amount. How this voucher system is seen as a drain on state funds might require imagination.
I am sick and tired of public money being used for corporate welfare for any reason. Lend businesses, including sports enterprises, monies but do not give outright.
NO MONIES FOR PRIVATE OR RELIGIOUS SCHOOLS. The public school systems needs all the public support it can get because it educates the majority of our youth.
NO MONIES FOR PRIVATE OR RELIGIOUS SCHOOLS. The public school systems needs all the public support it can get because it educates the majority of our youth.
9
Any way you look at it, more schools will divide each state's education pot into smaller chunks. This seems neither productive nor prudent nor fiscally responsible. For every new school drawing students from the public school system, we will have the older schools bled of money, students, and public involvement. And, we will have a pool of students left behind who are now in schools needing "remedial" help--requiring more money.
In rural areas, one of the consequences of consolidated schools is that the towns lose their sense of commitment and engagement with the consolidated school now drawing students from two or three towns and usually located on the outskirts of any town.
Choice may be great in theory, but what all we parents want is a good, sound, rigorous education for our children in a safe environment. (The numerous non-Catholic students for generations who have attended urban Catholic schools attest to the desire for education overriding any religious overtone in the school itself.)
What choice does is turn our nation's back on our public school system, generating a two-tier school system and ultimately serves neither our society nor our children.
In rural areas, one of the consequences of consolidated schools is that the towns lose their sense of commitment and engagement with the consolidated school now drawing students from two or three towns and usually located on the outskirts of any town.
Choice may be great in theory, but what all we parents want is a good, sound, rigorous education for our children in a safe environment. (The numerous non-Catholic students for generations who have attended urban Catholic schools attest to the desire for education overriding any religious overtone in the school itself.)
What choice does is turn our nation's back on our public school system, generating a two-tier school system and ultimately serves neither our society nor our children.
6
I'm not sure that Pella is representative of the nation. It is a town of 10,000 with an income that is higher than the State average, a solid manufacturing base (Pella Windows included), a much larger than average education sector (people who work in education tend to push for better local education), and a 3% unemployment rate. Saying that it is representative of any educational trend is like saying that people who live in wealthy neighborhoods tend to be richer. The education is already better than average. The question is whether the strategy will work on a large scale, not on a pilot basis that cherry-picks the best students, in areas where it is needed the most.
5
I live an hour from Pella. Pella is a nice community, but as Robert mentions, it is not representative of the nation as a whole. Pella has a higher median income and is much less diverse than most communities in Iowa.
4
If it costs thousands of dollars for each public school student, a private school voucher worth much less might save the state money. The voucher family still has to pay state and federal taxes. However, I still prefer public schools and sent my children to them but it meant choosing the right area to live in. School districts distort real estate values.
2
The public school system has consistatly been vilified by the conservatives not because it doesn't work perfectly but because it's PUBLIC and that sounds to much like socialism. Everyone pays taxes to fund universal education for all children despite their political, economic status or religious background. A noble goal. Does it work perfectly... no. But that should be our standard of excellence to strive for.
Trump proposes the "largest military expansion in history" instead of billions more in funding to rebuild public schools and increase school funding.
The end game of the Trump administration is to weaken public schools, NOT to improve education for all.
There are thousands of truly excellent and dedicated public school teachers who are the real unsung heros of our nation. We should treat them with the same reverence we treat athletes and movie stars. The public school system and teachers should be praised instead of blamed. We should invest in rebuilding and strengthening public schools for all our children.
Trump proposes the "largest military expansion in history" instead of billions more in funding to rebuild public schools and increase school funding.
The end game of the Trump administration is to weaken public schools, NOT to improve education for all.
There are thousands of truly excellent and dedicated public school teachers who are the real unsung heros of our nation. We should treat them with the same reverence we treat athletes and movie stars. The public school system and teachers should be praised instead of blamed. We should invest in rebuilding and strengthening public schools for all our children.
10
"The public school system has consistatly been vilified by the conservatives'......who don't want their children to go to school with people who don't look like them.
5
To Strong Mind in Chicago: Some NYC public schools are superb; some are abysmal. Why? Various causes, but one important one is residential segregation by class, "race" and ethnicity. Another is the erosion of educational standards--call it grade inflation, if you wish--beginning back in the 60's and continuing to the present day, producing teachers with inadequate grasp of subject matter. How about television watching versus reading and parents too harried in an adverse economy to pay real attention to their children?
By the way, Strong Mind in Chicago, everything in NYC costs more than elsewhere. That's NYC.
By the way, Strong Mind in Chicago, everything in NYC costs more than elsewhere. That's NYC.
4
A local charter school (not in my town Cambridge) holds a drawing to select students. Here is the catch. The drawing can be rigged so that a favored few get priority.
It is interesting why those favored kids are being sent to this charter school. The parents admit that they feared the kids would fail in the public school which was "too hard". The charter school curriculum is at least three years behind the public school and some content is iffy. The "hard" high school is looking at laying off 35 teachers because it is losing state money to the charters.
It is interesting why those favored kids are being sent to this charter school. The parents admit that they feared the kids would fail in the public school which was "too hard". The charter school curriculum is at least three years behind the public school and some content is iffy. The "hard" high school is looking at laying off 35 teachers because it is losing state money to the charters.
9
Don't the favored few always get priority? No new news here.
3
In the US the Constitutional separation of Church and State has arguably been good for the Church. Compared to the dying state-sponsored churches in many European countries for example, US churches are relatively strong and healthy (perhaps conservatives' advocacy for self-reliance applies to churches even more than it does to people).
Considering the above, religious schools should be much more circumspect about taking vouchers from the state. Voucher money will breed dependency and government money always comes with strings attached. Administrations and their policies change and at some point a requirement to receive voucher money could conflict with a religious school's beliefs. Schools could end up between the proverbial 'rock and a hard place': compromising some core belief in order to preserve eligibility for vouchers - or financial ruin as large numbers of former voucher parents are unable or unwilling to pay full tuition.
Churches and religious schools: be careful what you wish for.
Considering the above, religious schools should be much more circumspect about taking vouchers from the state. Voucher money will breed dependency and government money always comes with strings attached. Administrations and their policies change and at some point a requirement to receive voucher money could conflict with a religious school's beliefs. Schools could end up between the proverbial 'rock and a hard place': compromising some core belief in order to preserve eligibility for vouchers - or financial ruin as large numbers of former voucher parents are unable or unwilling to pay full tuition.
Churches and religious schools: be careful what you wish for.
So Medicaid access, LGBTQ rights, reproductive choice rights should be controlled at the state level, but the federal government will dictate how my state and local tax dollars will be spent on lower education? And allow those tax dollars to support education held to no measurable performance standard?
This is about Christian fundamentalism and white flight from public schools, pure and simple. Plain wrong on some many levels.
This is about Christian fundamentalism and white flight from public schools, pure and simple. Plain wrong on some many levels.
3
And what will happen when Madrassas and other fundamental Islam based schools ask for their fair share? It would only be fair!
NYT- Your articles on education only focus on parents. All taxpayers and residents with or without children have an interest in a robust public education system. We have strong views and the media, educators and politicians should address them. Competition is not a good thing in all cases. An orderly monopoly with strong transparency and oversight is the best way to distribute community services, like education.
2
Really best way to distribute education is an orderly monopoly. Suggest you start analyzing data from Arizona and Chicago. To improve a system requires the intelligent application of relevant data.
Taxpayer money should not fund private religious schools! Separation of church and state means separation of church and state. No taxpayer money should fund religious schools at all. Imagine all the controversy if taxpayer dollars were funding an Islamic school that taught Sharia law? Republicans would quickly start opposing school choice legislation or institute a clause that discriminates against specific religions.
25
Sir, my local paper has recently been reporting on a chain of Turkish charter schools, several of which are in NJ. Most recently they submitted fraudulent applications for new ones, and then hired the person responsible for approving the schools. I'd check the details if I were you before repeating them. The ongoing reporting has been in The Record newspaper, which is at nj.com.
1
Arnoldo, you are incorrect. "The money that goes to religious schools through parents has always been a hot-button issue in voucher debates, though the U.S. Supreme Court found Ohio's plan to be constitutional in 2002. " as reported in the Cleveland Plain Dealer.
Education is a state issue, not a federal one. The best thing the Dept. of Education could do, other than disbanding, is sponsor a new set of accurate textbooks on American history, literature, and civics so that we don't continue to train children to despise their country.
The public schools are, in general, poor. Good teachers are terrified of parents, administrators, and lawsuits. The amount of wasted minutes in every period, much of it due to the failure of parents to support their children's education, gets worse every decade.
Put education back into the community where it belongs, and if there is a need to distribute tax money, give it to the states on the basis of financial need, and let bureaucrats who actually might be controllable hand their disbursement.
-- A former public, and private, school teacher, and university professor.
The public schools are, in general, poor. Good teachers are terrified of parents, administrators, and lawsuits. The amount of wasted minutes in every period, much of it due to the failure of parents to support their children's education, gets worse every decade.
Put education back into the community where it belongs, and if there is a need to distribute tax money, give it to the states on the basis of financial need, and let bureaucrats who actually might be controllable hand their disbursement.
-- A former public, and private, school teacher, and university professor.
1
Are you speaking of revisionist history books. Math books which are riddled with mathematical errors, civics without civility. The elimination of the arts. Humanity nonexistent.
H.L. Mencken-" On some great and glorious day, plain folk will have reached their heart's desire, when the White House will be adorned by a complete moron."
Well, I guess plain folk have attained their heart's desire.
H.L. Mencken-" On some great and glorious day, plain folk will have reached their heart's desire, when the White House will be adorned by a complete moron."
Well, I guess plain folk have attained their heart's desire.
2
"The public schools are, in general, poor. Good teachers are terrified of parents, administrators, and lawsuits. The amount of wasted minutes in every period, much of it due to the failure of parents to support their children's education, gets worse every decade. "
There is zero data supporting your claim. For a former college professor, you don't seem very good at providing sources.
There is zero data supporting your claim. For a former college professor, you don't seem very good at providing sources.
4
"Education is a state issue, not a federal one."....Where is that written as a law? I think the preamble of the Constitution says - to promote the general welfare - as one of it's six goals.
1
This is the road to destruction of the public school system.
12
That has been the goal of terrified white parents since Brown versus the Board of Education.
Why is there so much resistance to using public money for private health care yet no qualms about using public money for private education?
15
Because the Constitution speaks of no state supported religion.
What private health care? I can go to any doctor, any hospital, anywhere in the country. It's called Medicare. Everyone needs health care. Not everyone needs a school; some people actually don't have any children or their children are grown and gone and have no need for schools. Yet, we fund PUBLIC education to benefit every child for the good of society. I do not wish my tax dollars to help fund a school where religious education is part of the deal. And I say this, having benefited from 16 years of Catholic education myself, though I sent my own kids to public schools.
To the lady in Des Moines, moral education is taught at home with the help of your church if you so wish. Don't expect that to be in the school's curriculum. Do your job.
To the lady in Des Moines, moral education is taught at home with the help of your church if you so wish. Don't expect that to be in the school's curriculum. Do your job.
6
Because irony education is severely lacking in our country's curriculum.
Public education can work. Most of the top schools and universities around the world are public. How do their systems differ from ours? Their public schools track students with admission-type exams and student character rating. The best ones go through the curriculum with more intense pace to prepare students for university entrance and bacalaureate exams. One can say the process is of weeding out much like a private school, but it brings parents' faith back into the public school system.
2
If you want to send your kid to a religious school go right ahead. But don't ask this committed agnostic to help pay for it. Is that so hard to understand?
18
What makes you feel you are paying for it.
You aren't the only person who is paying taxes.
People who send their children who attend these schools pay taxes and do not get the benefits they pay for if the government doesn't help.
Is that hard to understand.
You aren't the only person who is paying taxes.
People who send their children who attend these schools pay taxes and do not get the benefits they pay for if the government doesn't help.
Is that hard to understand.
1
“People who send their children who attend these schools pay taxes and do not get the benefits they pay for if the government doesn't help.”
This totally misses the point.
People with no children or no school age children pay taxes, too - part of which goes to the public school system. Our tax dollars must support the public good - any citizen is entitled to go to a tuition-free public school. Anyone is entitled not to avail themselves of the beneficiaries of public schools dollars by sending their children to private schools, too (or by home-schooling).
Just not on the taxpayers’ dime.
Diverting public school dollars into private schools will, among other things, greatly damage the public school system.
Is that hard to understand?
This totally misses the point.
People with no children or no school age children pay taxes, too - part of which goes to the public school system. Our tax dollars must support the public good - any citizen is entitled to go to a tuition-free public school. Anyone is entitled not to avail themselves of the beneficiaries of public schools dollars by sending their children to private schools, too (or by home-schooling).
Just not on the taxpayers’ dime.
Diverting public school dollars into private schools will, among other things, greatly damage the public school system.
Is that hard to understand?
22
Richard, you don't seem to understand that they have the ultimate truth and they want to impose it on the rest of us whether we like it or not...
1
As a christian and a faithful taxpayer, I vehemently object to pubic tax dollars being used to subside private schools, especially religious schools. Would those who support public funds for faith-based schools or those without proper accreditation, be as enthusiastic if the school sponsored by an mosque?
21
As i referred another commentator to ongoing reporting in my local NJ paper, The Record, on nj.com, a large chain of Turkish schools (with presumed religious teachings) has been opening charter schools. The most recent news is of fraudulent charter school applications and the schools' hiring of the individual responsible for approving the applications.
In the last few years I have found it curious that dems oppose vouchers but like Obamacare, which is little more than a voucher system for healthcare, and republicans hate Obamacare but love vouchers. If we approached healthcare for the poor, sick and old like we do public education we could do it cheaper and include everyone. There is no question that vouchers are less cost effective in education and healthcare but there is also no dispute that vouchers allow more choice and control. I guess it just depends on whose special interest ox is being gored.
3
Charter schools within a public system provide choice and freedom to experiment and are not the same as vouchers. Vouchers give a student a set amount of money. That student might have been attending school privately, paid by family for religious reasons, and now gets that school for free. The student with disabilities or language barriers will get the same amount as that student, with no protections. Furthermore, poor areas become "choice deserts," where no school opens up. It's like poor neighborhoods with no grocery store. So no, vouchers are not a good choice, even when you decide school choice is good.
Dems don't love Obamacare. Dems wanted a public option which was scrapped to please the GOP. Most Dems would prefer a single payer public system just as many in the GOP want to throw everyone to the mercy of for-profit, unregulated health insurance companies. There's no inconsistency there at all!
3
Bad comparison:
Republicans say replace public schools with vouchers. Democrats say no.
Republicans say replace Medicare with vouchers. Democrats say no.
Republicans say replace social security with privatized individual accounts - essentially vouchers. Democrats say no.
The only counter example you offer is the ACA, where Republicans say die in the street if you can't afford chemo, and Democrats say, well, vouchers are better than nothing.
If Republicans have their way, you'll still pay taxes, but your tax money will all flow to private companies. Corrections Corporation of America, Blackwater, Trump University, Liberty Online Academy, Goldman Sachs, Aetna, etc. Your tax money will go to executives and shareholders of companies who lobby the government, and in return, those companies will provide the shoddiest, most minimal, least expensive service they can get away with.
A truly private company needs to work keep your business. But if a corp owns your elected reps, their revenue stream is guaranteed. You can't opt out of taxes. Just remember that anything spent serving you and your community is a loss for them. Adequately educated teachers in a heated classroom? Kills the bottom line. Better to offer a bot-gradable web curriculum to thousands of kids sitting at home. Investing your retirement funds? Anything the broker can't skim in fees is money they lose. Paying a doctor to manage your arthritis? Bad business. Better to deny the claim and keep the cash.
Republicans say replace public schools with vouchers. Democrats say no.
Republicans say replace Medicare with vouchers. Democrats say no.
Republicans say replace social security with privatized individual accounts - essentially vouchers. Democrats say no.
The only counter example you offer is the ACA, where Republicans say die in the street if you can't afford chemo, and Democrats say, well, vouchers are better than nothing.
If Republicans have their way, you'll still pay taxes, but your tax money will all flow to private companies. Corrections Corporation of America, Blackwater, Trump University, Liberty Online Academy, Goldman Sachs, Aetna, etc. Your tax money will go to executives and shareholders of companies who lobby the government, and in return, those companies will provide the shoddiest, most minimal, least expensive service they can get away with.
A truly private company needs to work keep your business. But if a corp owns your elected reps, their revenue stream is guaranteed. You can't opt out of taxes. Just remember that anything spent serving you and your community is a loss for them. Adequately educated teachers in a heated classroom? Kills the bottom line. Better to offer a bot-gradable web curriculum to thousands of kids sitting at home. Investing your retirement funds? Anything the broker can't skim in fees is money they lose. Paying a doctor to manage your arthritis? Bad business. Better to deny the claim and keep the cash.
It's not too much of a challenge for the school to provide education for well-performing students. If they have to pay for special education aides and accept any student that applies, then they may find that the public schools are actually doing a good job.
30
It seems the question is whether the money has to follow a student.
If the State/School District provide $ X per student, should that money
follow the student if the student enrols in a Charter School or a Private School ?
I went to 18 different schools in 6 countries.
Without doubt the worst were the Public Schools in America.
Why have Public Schools been allowed to get worse and worse and worse.
Isn't that really the question we should be addressing ?
If the State/School District provide $ X per student, should that money
follow the student if the student enrols in a Charter School or a Private School ?
I went to 18 different schools in 6 countries.
Without doubt the worst were the Public Schools in America.
Why have Public Schools been allowed to get worse and worse and worse.
Isn't that really the question we should be addressing ?
4
Public schools getting worse and worse - depends on where you are.
http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/curriculum/2017/03/exchange_students_view...
Exchange Students View U.S. Schools as 'Easier' Than Those Abroad
The international students in the sample were also asked: "Compared to students in your home country, how important do your U.S. friends think it is to do well in math?" Nearly half of students responded "much less" or "a little less," and 39 percent said "about the same."
When asked the same question about sports, international students surveyed overwhelmingly said U.S. students thought it was more important to do well athletically than did students from their home country.
http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/curriculum/2017/03/exchange_students_view...
Exchange Students View U.S. Schools as 'Easier' Than Those Abroad
The international students in the sample were also asked: "Compared to students in your home country, how important do your U.S. friends think it is to do well in math?" Nearly half of students responded "much less" or "a little less," and 39 percent said "about the same."
When asked the same question about sports, international students surveyed overwhelmingly said U.S. students thought it was more important to do well athletically than did students from their home country.
In Florida school choice has meant lots of for profit charlatans getting in the school business, setting up shop, collecting the tax money from the School District, having little to no accountability and then failing taking the tax money with them. Seems like nothing but a get rich quick scheme that hurts tax payers, the public school and the children and parents who opt into these choice programs. The only party that seems to benefit are the ones getting the tax dollars.
32
They don't just hurt the families who fall for the scam but the whole public education system so everyone gets hurt.
I don't care what happens to the public schools. They are a disgrace to the taxpayers of America. We who pay the salaries of untold incompetent, burnt out, and underperforming teachers, administrators and school board members.... have heard every imaginable excuse for why our public schools do not excel. The bottom line is this..... Americans pay the second highest amount per pupil in the world, and our best students rank 25th on international tests. Our middle performers cannot intellectually out-compete students from even more countries, and our low performers score so badly, their test scores do not even reach the lowest measurement on international tests. So you go and pat yourselves on the back with your accolades to the public schools, but just remember, in every other country, there would have been a major shake up decades ago. Time for one here.
3
The public schools where I live in Kansas are good, despite the efforts of conservative Republicans to underfund them. Not all public schools are a disgrace. As a society we undervalue education more than many other countries. We mock smart people. We call smart kids "geeks" and "nerds." Parents care more about how Johnny does in sports than whether or not he's up to grade level in math. They don't work on reading skills before kindergarten. They don't manage discipline issues that interfere with a child's ability to learn. And it doesn't take a lot of money, either. Index cards cost a buck to make flashcards. Books can come from the library and so can computer access. Bottom line is that when kids don't do well in school the parents share in that responsibility. I get tired of seeing the schools blamed while disengaged parents get off scot free.
30
It is attitudes like yours that contribute to this mess. You spend so much time villifying schools, you break everyone's morale and enthusiasm for teaching. We have a CHRONIC teacher shortage in nearly every state because of people like you who spew nonsense about "untold incompetent, burnt out, and underperforming teachers, administrators and school board members." What are YOU doing about it? When have you been a school board member? If you think you can judge it so precisely, then why aren't YOU out there showing everyone how it SHOULD be done? NO ONE wants to be a teacher anymore because of people like you who complain, complain, complain, but give no solutions. Why? Because you don't have any solutions!
12
The day we get to involve parents with their children education and not to see school as a place to get rid of the kids for the day, then and only then, we are going to be able to improve the education our children receive. We have many decades with the level of education going down, the result is that parents are more ignorant than their children, and can't care less about the education the kids receive. However, the main malady, it's the lack of discipline. Teachers are afraid of their students and don't dare to do anything because they might be attacked or fired. Our government is useless and doesn't help at all, it's there just to act like they care, when it's obvious they don't. The religious groups are pressing all the time to get religion in school, even if it means that they have to destroy public education in the process. The future looks very dark to me. It's a good thing I don't have school age children. Good luck.
The congruence of a school's educational philosophy and that of parents is one factor that makes school choice seem sensible. Parents are more likely to be strongly supportive of a school when they believe in the methodology of teaching.
The problem is that it would be very expensive to provide real choice to every family. In some places, there are not enough children to make it practical at any price. For those people who can't afford it, there is no choice.
Religious schools do not want the state interfering in what is taught. Do we just give parents the right to choose religious schools and use tax money to make that possible? Some are very good, but some are not. It's hard for parents to be able to discern the difference. Should parents be able to make all decisions about the long-term best interests of their children? For older students, sometimes they may even have an opinion that might differ from that of their parents.
If it's a surprise that healthcare is so complicated, it will be equally surprising that education has its own complications. It may also surprise that any effective solution will not be cheap.
The problem is that it would be very expensive to provide real choice to every family. In some places, there are not enough children to make it practical at any price. For those people who can't afford it, there is no choice.
Religious schools do not want the state interfering in what is taught. Do we just give parents the right to choose religious schools and use tax money to make that possible? Some are very good, but some are not. It's hard for parents to be able to discern the difference. Should parents be able to make all decisions about the long-term best interests of their children? For older students, sometimes they may even have an opinion that might differ from that of their parents.
If it's a surprise that healthcare is so complicated, it will be equally surprising that education has its own complications. It may also surprise that any effective solution will not be cheap.
3
Yes, dare to trust parents with the health, welfare and education of their children unless they prove themselves unfit...that is after all the law in this nation.
To use public taxpayer money to pay for private religious school education is outrageous. Why should taxpayers fund religions they do not support?
7
Do small private schools even have the infrastructure to support a large influx of students (cherry picked or not)? It seems to me private schools itching to get their hands on state monies better be careful what they wish for, lest their underpaid teachers find themselves facing classes of 35 instead of 13.
2
When support for Catholic schools was being talked about in NYC in the late 50s and early 60s, 1 inn 3 children were educated in Catholic schools. This was possible for one and only one reason. Nuns were free! No salary.
You want to send your children to private religious schools, you pay for it. You want public funding for "private schools", you don't get to conduct religion "teaching", you meet the same standards and curriculum set out by the board of education at the federal level and you don't get to refuse children.
You want to send your children to private religious schools, you pay for it. You want public funding for "private schools", you don't get to conduct religion "teaching", you meet the same standards and curriculum set out by the board of education at the federal level and you don't get to refuse children.
17
I would be more sympathetic to voucher arguments if governments funded public schools better and more equitably. The idea that vouchers force public schools to compete is attractive on the surface, but how do they compete without money, and with money going out the door to fund private schools and ESAs?
7
The New York City School District spends $20,331 per pupil for results that are quite frankly, embarassing. How much more money do you want to throw in the pot?
New York is an expensive city. But in any case, less money isn't going to make schools better.
1
It's not embarrassing. Test scores went up.
2
Since Mrs. DeVos and her family have devoted their billions to subverting public education in Michigan, students have slipped from being in the middle achievement rank of American schools to almost dead last. How typical of Trump to appoint someone determined to subvert the task of the agency she is appointed to head!
I agree with those that say supporting schools with a religious agenda is contrary to the constitution. Bashing public schools and teachers has become the hobbyhorse of those wanting a piece of funding that is already inadequate. Many public school teachers buy supplies for their classes out of their own pockets, making their already inadequate salaries even less. How many legislators would do this? We are lucky to have teachers willing to work with ALL children in our public schools with the miserly support we give them. There is no way this funding of private schools would not come out of the present funding for public schools, to the detriment of our promise of equal educational opportunity for all children. Enthusiasm for this idea stems at least in part from the opportunity to indoctrinate children in conservative ideas, and much of the rest is because of distaste of having "their" children exposed to children with less opportunity. Let them pay their own tuition!
I agree with those that say supporting schools with a religious agenda is contrary to the constitution. Bashing public schools and teachers has become the hobbyhorse of those wanting a piece of funding that is already inadequate. Many public school teachers buy supplies for their classes out of their own pockets, making their already inadequate salaries even less. How many legislators would do this? We are lucky to have teachers willing to work with ALL children in our public schools with the miserly support we give them. There is no way this funding of private schools would not come out of the present funding for public schools, to the detriment of our promise of equal educational opportunity for all children. Enthusiasm for this idea stems at least in part from the opportunity to indoctrinate children in conservative ideas, and much of the rest is because of distaste of having "their" children exposed to children with less opportunity. Let them pay their own tuition!
16
Student performance has as much to do with parental involvement as anything. Involved parents are also the ones most likely to go for private schools. If they can afford it, fine. Reducing the funds available for everyone else just makes it more difficult for those with ability but whose parents are too busy struggling with life, or who don't themselves have the necessary education to help. The money would be better directed to those with ability (which most teachers already know), regardless of background.
12
Reading the article and the comments, it's clear that the last thing on the mind of the people arguing about private vs. public schools is education of the kids. It's a political battle with education as a weapon.
I've two kids in public school and hence some skin in the game. I've studied this issue for over two decades and have concluded that some sort of a voucher system is the only solution to effective education of the kids in the medium and long-term.
Being of Hindu background, I would like my kids to imbibe a Hindu worldview rather than a Semitic worldview. However, I would gladly send my kids to a Catholic high school if I could get vouchers for the simple reason that the academics are better in the Catholic schools in my area than in my high school.
I understand that kids with special needs and disabilities may not find a suitable private school that meets their needs. I have no problem with supporting a public education system that focuses on such kids. The important thing is that other kids will not be held back by apathetic teachers secure in their tenure.
Some school choice is inevitable because of the way teachers' unions have got the K-12 system in their vice-like grip using it to milk it to the benefit solely of their paying members, with no accountability to parents. I don't care if some of that tax money goes to religious schools just as I support taxpayer funding of Planned Parenthood.
I've two kids in public school and hence some skin in the game. I've studied this issue for over two decades and have concluded that some sort of a voucher system is the only solution to effective education of the kids in the medium and long-term.
Being of Hindu background, I would like my kids to imbibe a Hindu worldview rather than a Semitic worldview. However, I would gladly send my kids to a Catholic high school if I could get vouchers for the simple reason that the academics are better in the Catholic schools in my area than in my high school.
I understand that kids with special needs and disabilities may not find a suitable private school that meets their needs. I have no problem with supporting a public education system that focuses on such kids. The important thing is that other kids will not be held back by apathetic teachers secure in their tenure.
Some school choice is inevitable because of the way teachers' unions have got the K-12 system in their vice-like grip using it to milk it to the benefit solely of their paying members, with no accountability to parents. I don't care if some of that tax money goes to religious schools just as I support taxpayer funding of Planned Parenthood.
5
First off, don't tell me you are Hindu and talk about "skin in the game" in the same breath. You are flat out lying! Kids aren't held back by apathetic teachers. They are held back by an educational system that is top heavy in administration and parents whose kids run wild.
4
I would rather not pay taxes so you can let your kids be indoctrinated in a religion at school, regardless of how good the 'academics' are. Sorry.
And if you're so worried about accountability to parents, remember that it's DeVos who refuses to require accountability for charter schools.
And if you're so worried about accountability to parents, remember that it's DeVos who refuses to require accountability for charter schools.
8
Ah yes, I see. You don't want your kids around the untouchable caste... Thanks for the veiled racism... Actually, we need to come together: in schools, in public life. Isolation just enhances fear of the 'other'
3
What kind of "sense" does it make for a town of 12,000 citizens to have two or three mediocre high schools instead of one very good high school? Do you really think that the town can recruit two or three physics and chemistry teachers? What about two or three math teachers? That doesn't happen.
8
Early in our country's history one of the things that set us apart and gave us an edge was our strong public schools. No longer was a quality education only something that the wealthy enjoyed. Instead all Americans had access to education regardless of class.
Initially our students learned the 3 R's, reading, writing and arithmetic. In addition they also learned civics which made for stronger, much more aware citizens heavily invested in the success of their country. As our country's needs changed so did our schools. We grew from one room schools to our current k-12 followed by university.
I have no problem with parents who want to educate their children at private schools. But as a tax payer my responsibility is to ensure that our public schools continue their mission of providing a quality education to everyone regardless of race, gender, or disability.
If our public schools are no longer meeting the current needs of our country then we need to fix that issue and help them adapt to the 21st century. Failure to do so will mean that we continue to slip behind the rest of the world. But my tax dollars don't belong in subsidizing private education especially if they don't meet the standards that our public schools are capable of delivering.
Initially our students learned the 3 R's, reading, writing and arithmetic. In addition they also learned civics which made for stronger, much more aware citizens heavily invested in the success of their country. As our country's needs changed so did our schools. We grew from one room schools to our current k-12 followed by university.
I have no problem with parents who want to educate their children at private schools. But as a tax payer my responsibility is to ensure that our public schools continue their mission of providing a quality education to everyone regardless of race, gender, or disability.
If our public schools are no longer meeting the current needs of our country then we need to fix that issue and help them adapt to the 21st century. Failure to do so will mean that we continue to slip behind the rest of the world. But my tax dollars don't belong in subsidizing private education especially if they don't meet the standards that our public schools are capable of delivering.
30
"......If our public schools are no longer meeting the current needs of our country....."
on a global level, The United States spends the second highest amount per pupil for its public schools and our students score an embarassing 25th on international tests. What do you propose we do improve things? Money isn't the answer.
on a global level, The United States spends the second highest amount per pupil for its public schools and our students score an embarassing 25th on international tests. What do you propose we do improve things? Money isn't the answer.
And what happens when lawmakers decide that they don't want to fund Islamic schools? (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/13/louisiana_n_1593995.html)
Will there be some sort of religious test that determines acceptability of individual schools? Do the Scientologists get vouchers for their kids? Do the president's kids get vouchers for his grandhcildren? Most of all - what kind of accountability is there to insure that students are actually learning?
Will there be some sort of religious test that determines acceptability of individual schools? Do the Scientologists get vouchers for their kids? Do the president's kids get vouchers for his grandhcildren? Most of all - what kind of accountability is there to insure that students are actually learning?
14
Whatever happened to separation of church and state?
22
Show me where someone is trying to establish a religion other than atheism.
1
Atheism is by definition not a religion. It's simply freedom FROM religion.
2
@ J-Dog, By definition Atheism is the belief that their is no God. Note the belief part - it so far cannot be proven. An atheist has faith that there is no God, from my perspective it is equivalent to a religion.
Follow the money.
~ Billionaires invest in the wholesale privatization of a system, through donations of millions, marketing of millions and direct infusion of millions into private ''schools'' ( set aside how they got their billions or how they maintain them via ultra low taxes or no taxes at all )
~ Religious groups are tax free and run like a business ( ''schools'' ) that continue to be underpinned by you the tax payer. Those same religious entities turnaround and spend lots of money on more advertising, political chicanery and marketing. ( also exorbitant salaries of their directors )
~ You the tax payer are offered a block grant of money which never quite meets the whole bill of education. ( it rises yearly )
~ Through all of the above, the cheapest and most viable options for ''education'' ( brainwashing ) become religious and politically slanted ( extreme right ) institutions. ( textbooks likely coming from Texas )
~ Students fall behind more and more, and then become ready ( if they do actually graduate ) to become indentured servants to work at that minimum paying job, and vote in line with how they were brought up.
~ Cycle repeats
~ Billionaires invest in the wholesale privatization of a system, through donations of millions, marketing of millions and direct infusion of millions into private ''schools'' ( set aside how they got their billions or how they maintain them via ultra low taxes or no taxes at all )
~ Religious groups are tax free and run like a business ( ''schools'' ) that continue to be underpinned by you the tax payer. Those same religious entities turnaround and spend lots of money on more advertising, political chicanery and marketing. ( also exorbitant salaries of their directors )
~ You the tax payer are offered a block grant of money which never quite meets the whole bill of education. ( it rises yearly )
~ Through all of the above, the cheapest and most viable options for ''education'' ( brainwashing ) become religious and politically slanted ( extreme right ) institutions. ( textbooks likely coming from Texas )
~ Students fall behind more and more, and then become ready ( if they do actually graduate ) to become indentured servants to work at that minimum paying job, and vote in line with how they were brought up.
~ Cycle repeats
17
Cynical, but so true. How as a nation did we get to this point?
Simply welfare for the religion industry and well-off parents at tax payer expense. Governments making laws supporting religion, including tax exemptions for religious sects, should be unconstitutional.
20
has anyone mentioned the objective of undermining public school teachers and unions that are typically democratic voters?
sad!
sad!
13
Do these "school-choice" offerings also include free transportation for all?
If not, then it isn't much of a choice for the vast majority of students, and turns into a cash subsidy for those well off enough to be able to provide their own transportation.
If not, then it isn't much of a choice for the vast majority of students, and turns into a cash subsidy for those well off enough to be able to provide their own transportation.
7
With a Federal Department of Education, a State Department and a local school superintendent, a lot of money that could go to schools goes to administration.
Remember that in New Jersey some superintendents were earning more than the governor. Top that off with the fact that the Superintendent did not live in town and my feeling was that we were paying for something we were not getting.
Recently I posed the following question to one of my Senators. If in a room, one corner had education leaders from NY, NJ and Connecticut; another corner had the leaders from Mississippi, Alabama and Louisiana; a third corner had California, Oregon and Washington state and the last corner had Utah, Montana and Minnesota; would their be any chance of agreement?
It is not the school that fails, rather their attempt to follow all of the guidelines put on them allowing the children to get lost.
I am 71 and during my school time we had the best education system in the world. Since then striving to make it better and uniform has sunk it. Will our governmental officials ever wake up?
Remember that in New Jersey some superintendents were earning more than the governor. Top that off with the fact that the Superintendent did not live in town and my feeling was that we were paying for something we were not getting.
Recently I posed the following question to one of my Senators. If in a room, one corner had education leaders from NY, NJ and Connecticut; another corner had the leaders from Mississippi, Alabama and Louisiana; a third corner had California, Oregon and Washington state and the last corner had Utah, Montana and Minnesota; would their be any chance of agreement?
It is not the school that fails, rather their attempt to follow all of the guidelines put on them allowing the children to get lost.
I am 71 and during my school time we had the best education system in the world. Since then striving to make it better and uniform has sunk it. Will our governmental officials ever wake up?
If you want to send your kid to anything other than a public school, then pay for it on your own.
The charter and voucher programs have been a scam from day one. The kids don't emerge better educated and half of the charter schools close down because the kids are meeting any kind of standards in regard to attaining grade level education. Many of the teachers have two year or no degrees but "life experience" LOL.
Stop wasting money on the things that are making the population dumber and more divided along race, religion, ethnic, financial lines.
The charter and voucher programs have been a scam from day one. The kids don't emerge better educated and half of the charter schools close down because the kids are meeting any kind of standards in regard to attaining grade level education. Many of the teachers have two year or no degrees but "life experience" LOL.
Stop wasting money on the things that are making the population dumber and more divided along race, religion, ethnic, financial lines.
It is inescapable that private school alternatives enable public funds to circumvent Brown v. Board of Education, especially in parts of the country where segregated schooling was ingrained. Let's stop dancing around the elephant in the room.
School Choice = Segregation 2.0. That's why Milton Friedman introduced this "school choice" idea in 1955, just a year after the Supreme Court ruling that threatened school segregation.
12
School choice/vouchers will help the public schools obtain something that they often claim that they want.....smaller class sizes. With the smaller classes, more individual attention can be showered on the remaining children...especially any that need additional help. It's a win/win situation.
1
Fewer kids means fewer advanced classes and opportunities, etc. It's highly inefficient to hire an AP science teacher at $80K+ per year and have that person teach 30 students. And yes, teachers who teach AP, College Now, IB and other advanced classes need to have advanced degrees and thus we should not pay them the same as someone who manages a fast food restaurant.
3
Why should my tax dollars go to pay for private school education? Yet the same program isn't across the board fair to children who would fall thru the cracks - disabled, handicapped, etc. The private schools still have the option to reject such students. Private school is an option not a right. To underwrite it with taxpayer funds is wrong. Parents who want a private school education need to pay for it themselves.
78
I have three main issues with "school choice":
1. The schools have the ability to choose which students they want to admit. The students who need the most help are likely to be left behind.
2. The adverse selection problem (the best will be admitted to private schools and the worst will remain in public schools) will only further degrade public school quality.
3. The schools very often have motives that are misaligned with education -- for-profit, religion, etc.
My first point highlights that the neediest get hurt the hardest in the short-term.
Combine my second point with my third point and you have an equation that results in an education system that becomes entirely misaligned with education over the long run.
It's no way to educate a nation.
1. The schools have the ability to choose which students they want to admit. The students who need the most help are likely to be left behind.
2. The adverse selection problem (the best will be admitted to private schools and the worst will remain in public schools) will only further degrade public school quality.
3. The schools very often have motives that are misaligned with education -- for-profit, religion, etc.
My first point highlights that the neediest get hurt the hardest in the short-term.
Combine my second point with my third point and you have an equation that results in an education system that becomes entirely misaligned with education over the long run.
It's no way to educate a nation.
82
No, it's really simple. We should focus on the best and brightest, and push them to greatness. If a child doesn't have the support system at home to keep up, we shouldn't waste resources and money on them.
So we should improve schooling all over, I agree, but we should not slow the top students down if classmates cannot keep up.
So we should improve schooling all over, I agree, but we should not slow the top students down if classmates cannot keep up.
5
The students that need the most help should not be mixed with bright children that have the right support system. Why do you want to slow down the best kids? That make's no sense.
I have issues with your issues:
1. The ability to choose students is a good thing, all it takes is one discipline problem to disrupt the education of all others in the classroom, the ability to filter those out improves the education of all the others.
2. Not sure it is possible to further degrade public school quality in many urban schools.
3. If for profit, religious, or whatever schools provide quality education then so what? Competition will improve quality - the main reason Marxism fails.
1. The ability to choose students is a good thing, all it takes is one discipline problem to disrupt the education of all others in the classroom, the ability to filter those out improves the education of all the others.
2. Not sure it is possible to further degrade public school quality in many urban schools.
3. If for profit, religious, or whatever schools provide quality education then so what? Competition will improve quality - the main reason Marxism fails.
Why does the GOP vote so much money for private education, while trying to deprive these same children (and families) of healthcare?
26
they truly believe in self selection and in turn are eugenicists. the poor uneducated and suffering must be held in contempt because god didn't choose them to be an elite.
6
union busting
4
Pat - - that's why we have a problem in this country. We spend more per student than any other country and get so little back. Did I say only pay for whites? No I did not.
1
"Competition from private schools, they say, can help public schools improve."
Assumes private schools are superior to public. This isn't challenged until late in the article, but it is fundamental. In addition, any institution that accepts public money needs to be available to ALL Americans - including those with disabilities, LBGTQ, etc, etc. If your school can't do that, then no tax dollars come your way. And don't even get me started on public money to pay for religious school tuition....
Assumes private schools are superior to public. This isn't challenged until late in the article, but it is fundamental. In addition, any institution that accepts public money needs to be available to ALL Americans - including those with disabilities, LBGTQ, etc, etc. If your school can't do that, then no tax dollars come your way. And don't even get me started on public money to pay for religious school tuition....
31
One thing seldom mentioned in education funding is the socialization of children attending public schools vs. private schools. Private schools unable to accept special needs children deprive their own students of the simple awareness of lives not lived like their own. This is evident in certain leaders who have limited exposure to people of different social and economic levels - let alone people of different mental capacities. Well-intentioned parents increase educational disparities by directing their tax dollars for their children's private schools. It appears to be easier to vote with your taxes than engage in the difficult work of improving public education for all.
13
Are children better off for having the honor getting beat up by the school drug dealer? Your argument make no sense.
2
If that statement were true, most people today would not live within perspectual bubbles.
1
Any public funding of private schools should come with rigorous oversight, including legal compliance. No tax dollars to schools with religious teachings, no discrimination allowed (race, gender, religion etc), busing required, academic standards applied and testing required. My sense is that for all except the most expensive private schools, these will be insurmountable obstacles. But they are applied every day at public schools. In general, public schools are doing a great job, they should be supported and bolstered, not undercut.
11
I'll be damned if I will pay taxes to send students to private schools. Most of them are religious, which means that their primary mission is indoctrination, not education. Public schools are more-or-less neutral on religious and/or political matters. Moreover, they play a socially integrative role. Above all, the idea violates the separation of Church and State.
The Coos County Curmudgeon
The Coos County Curmudgeon
36
Yes, school choice is a must for poor rural and urban students who couldn't get to a private school even if they were admitted. I'm sure Mr. Trump will lend them his limo.
The dumbing down of 'Merika' continues.... no other way for the Republicans to get and keep power.
The dumbing down of 'Merika' continues.... no other way for the Republicans to get and keep power.
16
Oh come on already with the snuck in propaganda:
Advocates say that expanding private school choice would allow parents to remove children from public schools that are not meeting their needs, and note that surveys show parents in existing programs have high satisfaction rates. Competition from private schools, they say, can help public schools improve.
"They say, can help...improve". Right. I suggest we all try and get real here. Urban schools have been illegally and grossly underfunded by the same legislative coalitions that just love the idea of privatizing - voucherizing public education. So who are you kidding?
A system of public education that works for all children, regardless
of class, background, race is the sine qua non for a functioning democratic
society founded upon tolerance, mutual respect for others, individual
responsibility, and the realization of one's own definition of self fulfillment
and happiness.
Coalitions that form around achieving those goals and are not
diverted by hidden agendas that seek division and privatization of
a fundamentally public responsibility are essential to push back against
the powerful private sector forces pushing myths that underlie voucher schemes.
It is very seductive to think that this is a cheap way to "improve" schools, but
the consequence of vitiating public education will be very severe. Two tier
separate and unequal education was and remains unconstitutional.
Advocates say that expanding private school choice would allow parents to remove children from public schools that are not meeting their needs, and note that surveys show parents in existing programs have high satisfaction rates. Competition from private schools, they say, can help public schools improve.
"They say, can help...improve". Right. I suggest we all try and get real here. Urban schools have been illegally and grossly underfunded by the same legislative coalitions that just love the idea of privatizing - voucherizing public education. So who are you kidding?
A system of public education that works for all children, regardless
of class, background, race is the sine qua non for a functioning democratic
society founded upon tolerance, mutual respect for others, individual
responsibility, and the realization of one's own definition of self fulfillment
and happiness.
Coalitions that form around achieving those goals and are not
diverted by hidden agendas that seek division and privatization of
a fundamentally public responsibility are essential to push back against
the powerful private sector forces pushing myths that underlie voucher schemes.
It is very seductive to think that this is a cheap way to "improve" schools, but
the consequence of vitiating public education will be very severe. Two tier
separate and unequal education was and remains unconstitutional.
11
I can't wait till a Muslim religious school to get the federal funds! Woohoo!
34
I thought Republicans would be happy just to have 'access' to private schools.
34
a great plan to boost the sorting of Americans into competitive rival camps and fracture Democracy, while at the same time building religious intolerance, marginalization, and disadvantaging the poor... PLUS keeping more kids poorly prepared for citienship's demands. Little wonder supporters like the Kochs love it, there is so much destruction to be had in so tight a package.
65
I believe the Republicans will do anything that potentially results in a less educated populace so they can tighten their grasp on the country!
It does not take much to tip the scale in their favor if you observe the Gaussian distribution of intelligence.
But, that said, the public schools need improvement; perhaps going back in time fifty years when they were graduating college able students, who eventually demonstrated exceptional performance out in the world.
It does not take much to tip the scale in their favor if you observe the Gaussian distribution of intelligence.
But, that said, the public schools need improvement; perhaps going back in time fifty years when they were graduating college able students, who eventually demonstrated exceptional performance out in the world.
8
Only about 20 per cent of the population has ever gone to college. College has never been a universal educational experience, i.e. it's not for everyone. It never has been; it was never supposed to be. It's not the answer to the outsourcing of jobs that can be done by people who do not go to college.
2
The United States of America was built on the back of good public schools. The move to charter and religious schools further divides us as a people. This division weakens us as a people and as a nation. We have problems in every part of our our system and society. We can choose division or work towards fixing the problems. "Gated" schools are not the answer.
111
Jack Frederick, it goes along with gated communities, limited access to medical care, and all the other exclusionary tactics being employed by the people who can afford to use them. It's tragic that the wealth this country has is concentrated in the hands of a few, some of whom do not want to pay taxes and who believe that they are entitled to keep all of it even if that wealth was obtained with the help of employees, consumers, the government subsidies, tax cuts, etc.
6
Too many journalists parrot the "choice" language. The "choice" movement is funded by WalMart billionaires and other rich folks looking to destroy our local public schools in favor of for-profit management companies. They take tax dollars away from local public schools, which are held accountable, to fund charter or voucher entities of lower quality, which are not held accountable.
The only "choice" in this nasty movement is that low-quality voucher/charter entities choose to take fewer kids with disabilities or learning English. After taking funds away from the public schools, they typically leave the more expensive-to-educate children in the public schools.
Give us an article on the "cyber charters". These are nothing but scams.
The accumulated evidence shows how inferior most of charter and voucher entities are. Journalists should check the data, parse out the false rhetoric, and provide substantive insight; don't give us soft stories that mask the negatives caused by this movement, which forces inferior options down our throats. The word "choice" tested well in focus groups funded by the billionaires.
Detroit is an example of the "choice" movement's results. The charters in OH, MI, FL, CA, and most states have a bad track record by now. The oldest voucher programs, Milwaukee and Cleveland, have shifted money out of public schools but have done nothing positive. NY Times covered Georgia's vouchers once; they've gotten worse and deserve more coverage.
The only "choice" in this nasty movement is that low-quality voucher/charter entities choose to take fewer kids with disabilities or learning English. After taking funds away from the public schools, they typically leave the more expensive-to-educate children in the public schools.
Give us an article on the "cyber charters". These are nothing but scams.
The accumulated evidence shows how inferior most of charter and voucher entities are. Journalists should check the data, parse out the false rhetoric, and provide substantive insight; don't give us soft stories that mask the negatives caused by this movement, which forces inferior options down our throats. The word "choice" tested well in focus groups funded by the billionaires.
Detroit is an example of the "choice" movement's results. The charters in OH, MI, FL, CA, and most states have a bad track record by now. The oldest voucher programs, Milwaukee and Cleveland, have shifted money out of public schools but have done nothing positive. NY Times covered Georgia's vouchers once; they've gotten worse and deserve more coverage.
29
You don't get it. The "positive" is breaking the unholy power of the public teacher's unions.
All else is secondary. Nothing can ever improve while American education is RULED by public unions.
All else is secondary. Nothing can ever improve while American education is RULED by public unions.
2
I have to ask, yet again, if unions are so awful, why does heavily unionized MA consistently have the top k-12 performance in the nation, while the non-unionized south is the pits? Nobody seems to answer this question.
9
You REALLY need to start thinking for yourself and not following what you are told is "reality."
After listening to this discussion for years one conclusion is that Americans don't want to spend money on public schools as long there is an option for some of them to send their children to private schools where they think that everything is better. Instead of setting national standards, trying to attract the best people possible into every aspect of education, eliminating the sports component from education except for phys. ed., we're using tax dollars to subsidize parents who want to put their children into private schools because they feel that they have no alternative.
Finland has no private schools per se. They have a system that educates everyone and does an excellent job. Here's where some of it starts: Early childhood education is not mandatory in Finland, but is used by almost everyone. “We see it as the right of the child to have daycare and pre-school,” explained Eeva Penttilä, of Helsinki’s Education Department. “It’s not a place where you dump your child when you’re working. It’s a place for your child to play and learn and make friends. Good parents put their children in daycare. It’s not related to socioeconomic class”.[16]
America could do these things but decides not to as a way to punish parents for having children while not making enough money. We owe every child a good education that will allow them to contribute to society, to be useful and accomplished at what they do for a living. We just don't seem to want to do it for all children.
Finland has no private schools per se. They have a system that educates everyone and does an excellent job. Here's where some of it starts: Early childhood education is not mandatory in Finland, but is used by almost everyone. “We see it as the right of the child to have daycare and pre-school,” explained Eeva Penttilä, of Helsinki’s Education Department. “It’s not a place where you dump your child when you’re working. It’s a place for your child to play and learn and make friends. Good parents put their children in daycare. It’s not related to socioeconomic class”.[16]
America could do these things but decides not to as a way to punish parents for having children while not making enough money. We owe every child a good education that will allow them to contribute to society, to be useful and accomplished at what they do for a living. We just don't seem to want to do it for all children.
65
I admire Finland's schools as well. But you must consider that Finland is a tiny nation of five million (vs. 330 million in the USA) and that is almost entirely homogenous, NON-diverse and white. Finland has no illegal immigration, either.
And you left out several of the most critical Finnish components:
1. Though Finland offers pre-kindergarten and day care, they are not mandatory and SCHOOL ITSELF starts at 2nd grade, AGE SEVEN.
2. Finland pays its teacher's 35% LESS than American public school teachers -- NOT MORE. Less.
And the cost of living is higher in Finland -- taxes are higher too -- and Finnish teachers all must have master's degrees, where most US teachers do NOT have them. Yet the average pay is still 30-35% higher in the US!
To emulate the Finnish system, therefore, we'd need to start school two years later at age 7 -- and cut public union teacher pay by 35%.
Are you still game, hen3ry?
And you left out several of the most critical Finnish components:
1. Though Finland offers pre-kindergarten and day care, they are not mandatory and SCHOOL ITSELF starts at 2nd grade, AGE SEVEN.
2. Finland pays its teacher's 35% LESS than American public school teachers -- NOT MORE. Less.
And the cost of living is higher in Finland -- taxes are higher too -- and Finnish teachers all must have master's degrees, where most US teachers do NOT have them. Yet the average pay is still 30-35% higher in the US!
To emulate the Finnish system, therefore, we'd need to start school two years later at age 7 -- and cut public union teacher pay by 35%.
Are you still game, hen3ry?
1
And they get good results. Why? Because they, unlike Americans, are committed to getting their children a good education. They also get more bang for their taxes which is why their teachers are paid less.
Concerned Citizen, you have a talent for confusing the issues.
Concerned Citizen, you have a talent for confusing the issues.
1
Have you noticed there are some small differences between Finland and the US? For one their total population is less by more than half the number of illegal immigrants residing in the US. Also take a look at their demographics, not what a "progressive" would call diverse - in fact highly homogeneous.
School choice for all is certainly a right, as long as it does not undermine the separation of Church and State embodied in our Constitution. Payments from any State Organ would tend to do just that and should not be permitted. The history of this Country in its very beginning exemplifies the fleeing of folks to a Land free from the religious prejudices of State Entities .
17
The Puritans fled from England due to religious persecution. As soon as they were established in New England they persecuted anyone whose beliefs deviated from their own.
17
Especially Catholics.
2
There really is no "public" money. It is money confiscated from private citizens.
Muslim parents should be able to choose a Muslim school with THEIR money.
Christian parents should be able to choose a Christian school with THEIR money.
Atheist parents should be able to choose a Atheist school with THEIR money.
See where I'[m going here? It's diversity and the right and freedom to practice religion.
As long as the union-run public schools have a monopoly on education, we will have poverty.
Muslim parents should be able to choose a Muslim school with THEIR money.
Christian parents should be able to choose a Christian school with THEIR money.
Atheist parents should be able to choose a Atheist school with THEIR money.
See where I'[m going here? It's diversity and the right and freedom to practice religion.
As long as the union-run public schools have a monopoly on education, we will have poverty.
5
But all that violates the "progressive" Marxist, atheist principles.
1
Then I guess that as a non-parent I get to keep my money?
2
Children must have the much-needed "school choice" of unilaterally transferring from a private or (especially) religious school to public.
The dangers of molestation, discrimination, and misindoctrination are all amplified in those schools, and that of tax diversion from crucial services even more so. When parents make the wrong choice for their kids, we all suffer and the kids must be able to make it right.
The dangers of molestation, discrimination, and misindoctrination are all amplified in those schools, and that of tax diversion from crucial services even more so. When parents make the wrong choice for their kids, we all suffer and the kids must be able to make it right.
1
"diverting public money to private institutions"
This is not acceptable. Either it is private or it's not. Period. Too many private areas of society are going this route of abusing tax payers. Baseball stadiums are being built with public tax money too. It has to end. I could also argue the Constitutions "separation of church and state" as well.
This is not acceptable. Either it is private or it's not. Period. Too many private areas of society are going this route of abusing tax payers. Baseball stadiums are being built with public tax money too. It has to end. I could also argue the Constitutions "separation of church and state" as well.
16
Ever since the courts ruled that segregation of public schools was illegal, people have been trying to find ways to get around it. For those with means, the solution has been to send their kids to private schools. With little incentive to adequately fund and support public schools, states and districts have starved the public educational system.
As if this malignant neglect isn't enough, many states are now diverting more funds away from public schools in what I see as an attempt to actively degrade public education.
They may use the word "choice" to cover their intentions, but I believe the end aim is to replace a system that is meant to provide ALL children with a free, high-quality secular education with one that is separate and unequal.
As if this malignant neglect isn't enough, many states are now diverting more funds away from public schools in what I see as an attempt to actively degrade public education.
They may use the word "choice" to cover their intentions, but I believe the end aim is to replace a system that is meant to provide ALL children with a free, high-quality secular education with one that is separate and unequal.
131
This reminds me of the "private clubs" that were created in the south after positive civil rights legislation became the law of the land. The "clubs" were restaurants, golf courses . . . All kinds of venues. Membership in the white "race" the only requirement. I know because my parents forced me to eat lunch in one of them in Alabama. I am in favor of parochial schools, Quaker schools, Montessori schools--but the parents pay the costs themselves. Often this is a violation of freedom of religion by getting the government to pay for it. Tweet: Not good. Not good at all!
3
Choose your own " school ". BUT, don't expect the taxpayers to pay for your choice. With rare exceptions, " religious " schools are just a means for white kids to avoid exposure to " those people ". Fine, but YOU pay for it.
58
There's history to support the idea that "religious" schools have been a way to segregate without saying out loud that is the intent. That being said, reality is significantly more complicated. Some parents want a highly structured learning environment using traditional methodologies, while others may favor experiential learning or an emphasis on group activities. There's evidence that these differences are important to creating an effective school. It's really not one size fits all. The question is how to achieve the appropriate balance and provide a good start for all children. Unless we are willing to fund all the costs, private schools can't be the only answer.
1
I pay $3,000 extra for school tax. I have no children but consider it part of the community social contract. If those funds were to be diverted to a private/corporate system as it seems this admistration wants all government agencies to be. I will take my three grand and take a nice vacation.
24
It seems the choice is really between a public school or a religious one. Would DeVos and other school choice supporters be ok with public funds being diverted to elite East Coast schools like Exeter? Can they cover the cost of room and board at a boarding school? Or is this only so Christian organizations can touch funds they aren't currently entitled to?
57
That is precisely what's happening. Taxpayers' money being paid into the pockets of the owners of private schools, whose interest will only be religious indoctrination and profits for themselves and not best genuine education for all. An awful risk of regretting this further down the line.
11
If I use the public roads and come across a toll road or bridge, nobody expects the state to subsidize my toll.
If I use a public, private or religious doctor or hospital, no one expects my visit to be subsidized beyond what is otherwise available to me as any other consumer.
If I 911 for fire or police service, there is no religious test. Are you really going to wait for a cop or fire person of the "right religion" to answer the call? I doubt it.
If I get married in the courthouse, there is no charge other than for the marriage license for the facilities. If I choose to use a church for the wedding, no one expects a subsidy from the state to my wedding party to rent the church hall.
If I choose to send my children to a private or religious school, no one expects a state subsidy, right?
Privatization of government services is a poisonous weed designed to reduce public services in the name of tax cuts, but generally no one even raises the question of subsidizing those forced to use the newly privatized services. They are expected to pay if they want to use those services in the future.
So why do some think that they deserve a taxpayer subsidy to support their educational choice of a religious school? Beats me, except that subsidizing religious education goes far beyond the sort of entitlement that the right condemns in just about every other context, with the insidious goal of undermining public education.
If I use a public, private or religious doctor or hospital, no one expects my visit to be subsidized beyond what is otherwise available to me as any other consumer.
If I 911 for fire or police service, there is no religious test. Are you really going to wait for a cop or fire person of the "right religion" to answer the call? I doubt it.
If I get married in the courthouse, there is no charge other than for the marriage license for the facilities. If I choose to use a church for the wedding, no one expects a subsidy from the state to my wedding party to rent the church hall.
If I choose to send my children to a private or religious school, no one expects a state subsidy, right?
Privatization of government services is a poisonous weed designed to reduce public services in the name of tax cuts, but generally no one even raises the question of subsidizing those forced to use the newly privatized services. They are expected to pay if they want to use those services in the future.
So why do some think that they deserve a taxpayer subsidy to support their educational choice of a religious school? Beats me, except that subsidizing religious education goes far beyond the sort of entitlement that the right condemns in just about every other context, with the insidious goal of undermining public education.
132
I have heard such resentment from some parents at having to pay property taxes to support schools that they refuse to send their children to that it's unbelievable. You would think that they lived in a totalitarian society from the way they rant about paying for the local schools. However, when I hear what they want the schools to do versus what the schools can do, I understand why they send their children to a religious school instead of a public school. They don't want their children to have anything to do with children or teachers who do not share their beliefs. Some want a very limited education for their children when it comes to literature, science, history, and gender roles. The problem is that many of the children who graduate from these schools or transfer to public schools later on are not as well educated as their public school counterparts. They may be more pious or moral but not more learned.
3
At the very least schools accepting public money should be required to accept any child who applies.
92
Not if that child is known to disrupt the education of others.
3
But public schools must accept those children. Why, if they're getting money from the same pot, should private schools be allowed to discriminate?
4
Religious indoctrination, should not be allowed to be categorized as "Religious Education."
And it's child abuse to "indoctrinate" ( brainwash) a naive' gullible child, into any religion, because even the most intelligent adults can't agree on the so-called "truth" of any religion.
Therefore, religious education is not only oxymoronic, it also is a violation of intellectual freedom.
Freedom of religion, should never be construed to mean, the freedom to indoctrinate.
And it's child abuse to "indoctrinate" ( brainwash) a naive' gullible child, into any religion, because even the most intelligent adults can't agree on the so-called "truth" of any religion.
Therefore, religious education is not only oxymoronic, it also is a violation of intellectual freedom.
Freedom of religion, should never be construed to mean, the freedom to indoctrinate.
37
You are proposing censorship. Censorship is wrong.
3
Political indoctrination is just as bad if not worse.
6
The Trump administration does not believe in science---what the research says: but all studies over a decade, and in fact one that was just released on vouchers concludes: charter schools (given all the advantages of charter schools) do not out perform public schools and in some subject areas underperform; and voucher systems not only do not provide the choice they advertised, but like charter, the schools underperform public schools. Not that I would pile with this research, but, for profit schools not only underperform educationally, but in the process employ various "for profit" schemes that leave students not only without the skills, but, in huge debt. A simple rule to apply to Trump and De Voss's vision of schooling, is every time they mention privatization or charters or vouchers, think TRUMP UNIVERSITY...that is all you need to know about the "choice" movement.
46
The "school choice" movement is the exact same, with the exact goals, as the "intelligent design"-turned-"teach the controversy" movement.
It's back-door (un-)"Christian"-State imposition, funded by tax and service theft.
It's back-door (un-)"Christian"-State imposition, funded by tax and service theft.
6
Public education, supported by income and property taxes on Americans of all religious and non-religious persuasions, should not have to compete with private and church sponsored schools for tax dollars. If some Americans choose to opt out of public education, they should not rely on others to support their freedom of choice and freedom of religion.
Public funding of religious organizations violates the establishment clause of the Constitution. The Founding Fathers had seen enough of religious wars in Europe and the religious dominance and intolerance of various Christian sects in the American colonies.
Public funding of religious organizations violates the establishment clause of the Constitution. The Founding Fathers had seen enough of religious wars in Europe and the religious dominance and intolerance of various Christian sects in the American colonies.
180
Your comment illustrates another form of intolerance and bigotry. It is ok for the government money to support other venues for education as long as it does not discriminate, funding a Christian school and not a Muslim or Jewish one for example.
1
So by extension, this means that Isis and Branch Davidion sects are entitled to taxpayer funded schools? Be careful what you wish for.
1
So those with wealth get freedom of religion and freedom of choice in regard to education and those without wealth do not. Does not sound like the pluralistic society I want.
We're assuming that these schools are Christian. What happens when every religious community decides to use government money to run a private school? I still very much like the idea of separation of church and state. We're losing that.
39
Are parents in a position to make informed choices about schools? Do schools provide the relevant information? Does the relevant information even exist? The US has "choice" system for higher education and anyone who has looked at it carefully, or experienced it, realizes that all parents and students have available is a mass of misleading, incomplete information. Even generating the information one needs to evaluate schools has proven very difficult.
A good public high school (and I suspect nearly all urban and suburban high schools in Iowa qualify) offers a rich, varied curriculum. It provides programs for various kinds of students, even those with disabilities. It taps into the latest thinking on educational methods. The typical private school, on the other hand, offers a narrow, one size fits all, program. Normally it is proud of using out-dated, discredited teaching methods. It offers no room for students who are different in any way or suffer any disability. Why would we want to divert public dollars from schools capable of educating all our children to schools that don't even try?
A good public high school (and I suspect nearly all urban and suburban high schools in Iowa qualify) offers a rich, varied curriculum. It provides programs for various kinds of students, even those with disabilities. It taps into the latest thinking on educational methods. The typical private school, on the other hand, offers a narrow, one size fits all, program. Normally it is proud of using out-dated, discredited teaching methods. It offers no room for students who are different in any way or suffer any disability. Why would we want to divert public dollars from schools capable of educating all our children to schools that don't even try?
13
We regret how divided we are as a nation. Talk of national public service has been in the news theses days as a possible binding experience. But, what more fundamental bringing-together, shared, common experience could we have than 12 years of public school! You see some of the same classmates every day for years. Sports teams and art and debating clubs also build social cohesion. You cannot aspire to that if you are breaking up children into little clans based on religion, irritation with public education, de facto segregation (especially in old Jim Crow states), etc.
As a child in Binghamton, N.Y., my Catholic schoolmates and I were dismissed after lunch on Wednesdays to go to the parrish church for three hours of religious instruction. It worked; I'm still a Catholic 60 years later. And, I have some friends from those days too.
As a child in Binghamton, N.Y., my Catholic schoolmates and I were dismissed after lunch on Wednesdays to go to the parrish church for three hours of religious instruction. It worked; I'm still a Catholic 60 years later. And, I have some friends from those days too.
5
I do not mind paying taxes to support a public school system that is free to all, does not espouse any one religion, and exists on those two bases.
I will fight tooth and nail to prevent my taxes for being used for anything else. I have no children in public schools, but if the use of my taxes is aimed at anything other than the above, I should not have to pay them. I have enough of a problem with the excessive expenditures on school sports programs in public schools, but I have a voice in whether or not to build a monumental stadium for the local basketball or football team: I can vote against the bond issue that would fund it. I can go to the school board meetings and express my thoughts and hope to lead things back to the basics.
If you don't like what your local schools are doing, get involved! Don't tear away funding from them to be used by an "alternative fact" -based group that is not subject to input from the public.
As far as "home school" goes, if public funds are used to support home schoolers, I ask what's the difference between that and "welfare moms", that the white right so rails against. "They'll just keep having babies to get a bigger check", right?
I will fight tooth and nail to prevent my taxes for being used for anything else. I have no children in public schools, but if the use of my taxes is aimed at anything other than the above, I should not have to pay them. I have enough of a problem with the excessive expenditures on school sports programs in public schools, but I have a voice in whether or not to build a monumental stadium for the local basketball or football team: I can vote against the bond issue that would fund it. I can go to the school board meetings and express my thoughts and hope to lead things back to the basics.
If you don't like what your local schools are doing, get involved! Don't tear away funding from them to be used by an "alternative fact" -based group that is not subject to input from the public.
As far as "home school" goes, if public funds are used to support home schoolers, I ask what's the difference between that and "welfare moms", that the white right so rails against. "They'll just keep having babies to get a bigger check", right?
36
there is no room for private schools sucking the tax revenues from their respective states. the people in government are always all about paying ones own way through life. these sneaky miscreants cannot even keep the hypocrisy shrouded daily. religion is not as strong as it needs to be so lets move public funds into religious leaning learning institutions. what could possibly be wrong here?
8
"Public schools have a monopoly on money"? Well yes they do because my property tax dollars go to pay for those public schools. I do not want my tax dollars to pay for private schools or for those schools to be subsidized. There is a lot wrong with public schools and it should be the job of the Education Secretary to figure out how to improve them without diluting their funding and creating more schools that will leave our children ill prepared for the future.
33
The problem, Mary Kay, is that we can't do that -- reform the public schools -- because of the unholy IMMENSE power of the vastly wealthy teacher unions. They rule public education with an iron fist.
Massachusetts very unionized and highest test scores in country. Hmmm ...
3
Yeah, right, CC. It is clear you know NOTHING about it.
I'm sorry the republican party has already written the script for the privatization of education. If the Iowa schools don't fit the profile I'm sure the republicans will make them fit the profile.
31
The greatest problem of school choice become readily apparent when a parent or student suddenly finds that there is truly no choice. In Pennsylvania where school choice is also a dividing issue the conservative legislature asserting the right of school choice cannot come to grips with the fact that in most rural areas there are literally no schools to chose from. The option of home schooling also looms large. Inner cities too cannot always offer a choice because of crowded conditions or the inability to transport children to schools that may have room. Next comes the cost of school choice. The funding for school choice is taken from funds for the public schools further creating battles for limited resources. The State already allows paid transportation for children to parochial schools a hard won concession that compels school districts to transport children to either a parochial school when a student or parent makes the choice to attend. The next problem occurs when inner city children and their parents want to attend better performing or safer schools outside city limits. Sometimes parents chose those schools as a solution to behavior problems or academic performance problems of the student. Then there is the expectation that the new school district meet the special needs of the student. Again, funding and availability of space and teachers become a contentious issue. Also, in PA as in Iowa funding of schools by the state is limited and property taxes are unaffordable.
15
After watching Conn public schools per pupil cost rise to 14k, with 20 billion in unfunded pensions irresponsibly promised that caused GE to move, I am all in on this. Having been on a Catholic school board k-8 where we charge tuition of $4500 with no pension debt, and having parented 2 girls to an "exclusive" private Catholic high school whose tuition was less than the average 14k "free public" school cost, I support it for economic reasons alone, the more that we can encourage responsible private schools to grow the more we can save our state from additional debt which now is being paid off until 2047 under Malloy's proposal. I am devout Catholic and was happy with some of the religious trappings/teachings but how can Boards of Ed, made up of parents wanting more for their kids and beholden to teachers for recommendations for colleges and positions on sports teams, continue to run up debt and just leave the Board when their kids graduate, leaving us to pay the debt. Vouchers would improve enrollment, lower the school debt especially pensions, and allow private schools to bridge the pay gap where a 50 year old tenured public school teacher can make 90k with pension with a teaching(not STEM) degree and a private school less than half with no pension. It is not fair and public schools have forfeited the right to complain about funds. I have taught 25 years as a college adjunct in IT so am certainly qualified to know what it takes to teach.
5
Ge, king of the PVC polluters of the Hudson River, was domiciled in Connecticut only for the advantage of its senior executives, who liked lower income taxes when compared to neighboring NY and NJ.
GE has been a major job creator by employing armies of accountants to ensure that it pays little or no Federal taxes on its profits.http://www.taxjusticeblog.org/archive/2016/04/just_plain_wrong_ge_and_ve...
GE has been a major job creator by employing armies of accountants to ensure that it pays little or no Federal taxes on its profits.http://www.taxjusticeblog.org/archive/2016/04/just_plain_wrong_ge_and_ve...
13
A tuition of $4500 with no pension debt? How did you achieve that? By using nuns and priests dedicated to poverty as teachers? By paying your lay teachers poorly? (What % of them has a spouse who is the major breadwinner?) By not funding any pensions? By subsidies from your parish(es) and/or diocese and/or religious orders? By running fundraisers? By not accepting or keeping students with problems? The Devil is in those details. Teaching children (you, Alan, teach adults who have chosen your courses) is not an easy job. The teacher is worthy of his/her hire.
23
It's not fair that teachers at private schools are paid less than public school teachers, so we need to give our tax money to operators of for-profit schools? Not so sure about that.
11
One thing that should have no place in this debate is "...the idea of diverting public money to private institutions..."
I don't understand how so many can accept the view that once money is collected from taxpayers, those funds are now for the exclusive use of the state alone. And that those same taxpayers should have no say whatsoever in their re-disbursement.
It would like saying that Medicaid or Medicare recipients have to go the local public hospital, and can't go to a preferred private one. Even worse, the patient would have to go to the designated doctor in their zip code. No other alternate doctor could be used, no matter of the quality of care. Or lack thereof.
Or, if an artist is funded from from public funds, he can only do specific prescribed forms & themes.
In most other situations, that anti-choice view would be seen as antithetical to the ideals of our society. Not the other way around.
I don't understand how so many can accept the view that once money is collected from taxpayers, those funds are now for the exclusive use of the state alone. And that those same taxpayers should have no say whatsoever in their re-disbursement.
It would like saying that Medicaid or Medicare recipients have to go the local public hospital, and can't go to a preferred private one. Even worse, the patient would have to go to the designated doctor in their zip code. No other alternate doctor could be used, no matter of the quality of care. Or lack thereof.
Or, if an artist is funded from from public funds, he can only do specific prescribed forms & themes.
In most other situations, that anti-choice view would be seen as antithetical to the ideals of our society. Not the other way around.
14
The problem with your scenario is that public schools exist to educate all children, rich or poor, disabled or able bodied. Private schools are for-profit and do not have to meet standards, serve the poor or disabled or autistic. I'm all for choice, but your should pay to send your kid to a private religious school that could bleed the quality of education for all. No, not on my dime.
35
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"I don't understand how so many can accept the view that once money is collected from taxpayers, those funds are now for the exclusive use of the state alone."
Not the State, but the public! And, for the communities involved.
"And that those same taxpayers should have no say whatsoever in their re-disbursement."
Hmm... Have you ever heard of elected school boards?! Of votes on school budgets and tax proposals?! Have you ever heard of P.T.A.s?! Of school-community task forces?
"It would like saying that Medicaid or Medicare recipients have to go the local public hospital, and can't go to a preferred private one."
People are not prohibited from attending a private school. Indeed, about 10% already do.
"Even worse, the patient would have to go to the designated doctor in their zip code. No other alternate doctor could be used, no matter of the quality of care. Or lack thereof."
Again, not forced to at all. Choice abounds, even in the public sector. Districts have public magnet schools, specialty schools, etc. As to quality, private, voucher, and charter schools typically do no better academically, and often worse than public schools do!
Plus, the private schools can *exclude* certain groups -- disabled, special needs, different languages -- or, push them out -- so, diverting funds from *public* schooling to private interests can restrict choice and worsen conditions for those left behind.
Much better that we all be in this together!
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"I don't understand how so many can accept the view that once money is collected from taxpayers, those funds are now for the exclusive use of the state alone."
Not the State, but the public! And, for the communities involved.
"And that those same taxpayers should have no say whatsoever in their re-disbursement."
Hmm... Have you ever heard of elected school boards?! Of votes on school budgets and tax proposals?! Have you ever heard of P.T.A.s?! Of school-community task forces?
"It would like saying that Medicaid or Medicare recipients have to go the local public hospital, and can't go to a preferred private one."
People are not prohibited from attending a private school. Indeed, about 10% already do.
"Even worse, the patient would have to go to the designated doctor in their zip code. No other alternate doctor could be used, no matter of the quality of care. Or lack thereof."
Again, not forced to at all. Choice abounds, even in the public sector. Districts have public magnet schools, specialty schools, etc. As to quality, private, voucher, and charter schools typically do no better academically, and often worse than public schools do!
Plus, the private schools can *exclude* certain groups -- disabled, special needs, different languages -- or, push them out -- so, diverting funds from *public* schooling to private interests can restrict choice and worsen conditions for those left behind.
Much better that we all be in this together!
=======
10
Atheists should not have to pay for religious instruction any more than Catholics should have to pay for abortions.
And the public should be concerned that the public's needs are being met when the public is paying: are the students being taught mythology such as Creationism or facts such as evolution? Are they being taught passive acceptance of "authority" or critical thinking?
Catholic and Christian schools seem ok to most people. But to be fair the public (and De Vos) would have to support schools of atheism, wicca, Santaria, satanism, etc., etc., etc.
And the public should be concerned that the public's needs are being met when the public is paying: are the students being taught mythology such as Creationism or facts such as evolution? Are they being taught passive acceptance of "authority" or critical thinking?
Catholic and Christian schools seem ok to most people. But to be fair the public (and De Vos) would have to support schools of atheism, wicca, Santaria, satanism, etc., etc., etc.
148
Actually, I don't want the government funding *any* form of religion. Separation of church and state, please. Like the Constitution says.
12
Indeed --this is the great reason for the constitutional separation of church and state.
One can make fun of religions and their intersection with civil law by becoming a "Pastafarian" (Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster) ... forcing the state to give equal rights to an obvious parody ... or one can demand that the state accommodate religions that the vast majority find greatly repugnant -- animal or even human sacrifice, anybody?
Americans as a whole have a public interest in normative education -- what used to be called the "Normal School Movement." This attempts to foster common beliefs and knowledge necessary for productive citizenship.
While there can be discussion of just what is, and isn't, acceptably normative ... we cannot allow radical religious indoctrination, e.g. race-war thinking or the like, to be seen as a religious "accommodation."
One can make fun of religions and their intersection with civil law by becoming a "Pastafarian" (Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster) ... forcing the state to give equal rights to an obvious parody ... or one can demand that the state accommodate religions that the vast majority find greatly repugnant -- animal or even human sacrifice, anybody?
Americans as a whole have a public interest in normative education -- what used to be called the "Normal School Movement." This attempts to foster common beliefs and knowledge necessary for productive citizenship.
While there can be discussion of just what is, and isn't, acceptably normative ... we cannot allow radical religious indoctrination, e.g. race-war thinking or the like, to be seen as a religious "accommodation."
10
svrw Washington, DC
Fifty five Years ago in PA students who attended the Harrisburg City Schools as well as some of the surrounding township schools, there was a requirement of all students to rise and say the Lord's Prayer and also to read a passage from the bible. Everyone was commanded to participate regardless of religious beliefs. The Jewish students went along with program simply to get along and usually they would read something from so-called "old testament". Jews call their bible the Masoretic Text not the old testament as it referred to in Christianity because Jews do not accept that their bible has been replaced or repealed. In any event, a deeply religious Christian teacher had little regard for her Jewish students and made it abundantly clear that the New Testament, was the preferred text for the bible reading. A recently arrived new Jewish student from New York was advised of the rules and told to give the reading the next day.
The following morning, the Jewish student, donned a yarmulke and tallis and began reading from the New Testament..."And Jesus tied his ass to a tree and walked into Jerusalem. Amen". He then offered the "Shema" with the other Jewish students rising to sing as well and then we all sat down. The teacher was silent. We were never again asked to read or say the Lord's Prayer.
Fifty five Years ago in PA students who attended the Harrisburg City Schools as well as some of the surrounding township schools, there was a requirement of all students to rise and say the Lord's Prayer and also to read a passage from the bible. Everyone was commanded to participate regardless of religious beliefs. The Jewish students went along with program simply to get along and usually they would read something from so-called "old testament". Jews call their bible the Masoretic Text not the old testament as it referred to in Christianity because Jews do not accept that their bible has been replaced or repealed. In any event, a deeply religious Christian teacher had little regard for her Jewish students and made it abundantly clear that the New Testament, was the preferred text for the bible reading. A recently arrived new Jewish student from New York was advised of the rules and told to give the reading the next day.
The following morning, the Jewish student, donned a yarmulke and tallis and began reading from the New Testament..."And Jesus tied his ass to a tree and walked into Jerusalem. Amen". He then offered the "Shema" with the other Jewish students rising to sing as well and then we all sat down. The teacher was silent. We were never again asked to read or say the Lord's Prayer.
11
Most of the wealthy can have their children educated in a religious school. Very few of the poor have that option. This can be seen as a question of religious freedom rather than as the state supporting the establishment of a particular religion. ... Read through the comments and see which can be classified as anti-religion.