i understand the need for harmony in marriage -- mine lasted 43 years. But who are the people who suggest the husband give in to the wife on Trump? Donald Trump represents a regression to the 1950s in civil rights, women's rights, environmental protection and voting rights. All the things we have accomplished as a society since Jim Crow are on the line with Donald Trump and his destructive cabinet.
pretending he's only a politician of a different point of view is fallacy. he represents regression and oppression and anyone who thinks it's okay needs a physic.
sorry to offend, but we can't wallow in civic ignorance. Donald degrades American values.
pretending he's only a politician of a different point of view is fallacy. he represents regression and oppression and anyone who thinks it's okay needs a physic.
sorry to offend, but we can't wallow in civic ignorance. Donald degrades American values.
36
Political differences are no small potatoes, especially when those differences are huge. Our political views reflect what we, as social animals, believe we do or do not owe to our fellow human beings as part of the social contract. With no other information I would think that the first letter writer has developed irreconcilable differences with his (her?) wife. But I also know that the wife has made political conversation difficult and actually "hates" all liberals. That just reinforces my belief that this couple's marriage is doomed.
17
"What seems unattractive in your wife’s position is not so much her political opinions as her intolerance of those, including you, who don’t share them." - Just like Donald Trump and his insistence on making America, including your wife, a clone. That must border on "intolerable" for YOU. One possible solution even as an extreme threat: 1-800-DIVORCE whereby you ask the question - "Who is more important to you, Trump or moi?"
Good advice on telling the family "what is what" and they had better shape up or you will be shipping out. Losing a part in such a toxic environment is NO LOSS - you will be better off without them and it sounds like they are so bigoted they will never change (as people don't). Don't ever undersell yourself or your love for this man - if he loves you as much then you are on top of the world and let no one bring you asunder.
Surviving our 3 daughters teen years we would recommend you be as stealthy as possible as early as you can. That includes texts, emails, encrypted stuff, and throw away phones. The most important imprint (and difficult) is building self-esteem and parents today need all the help they can get. If you get an early start then you steer them from wrong paths with others you have no information or knowledge of. These days with a collective and cumulative lack of real values (hooking up for sex at 13, drug use, bad boy friends, and the very frightening reality of young teen pregnancy) young people need more oversight. Good luck.
Good advice on telling the family "what is what" and they had better shape up or you will be shipping out. Losing a part in such a toxic environment is NO LOSS - you will be better off without them and it sounds like they are so bigoted they will never change (as people don't). Don't ever undersell yourself or your love for this man - if he loves you as much then you are on top of the world and let no one bring you asunder.
Surviving our 3 daughters teen years we would recommend you be as stealthy as possible as early as you can. That includes texts, emails, encrypted stuff, and throw away phones. The most important imprint (and difficult) is building self-esteem and parents today need all the help they can get. If you get an early start then you steer them from wrong paths with others you have no information or knowledge of. These days with a collective and cumulative lack of real values (hooking up for sex at 13, drug use, bad boy friends, and the very frightening reality of young teen pregnancy) young people need more oversight. Good luck.
5
After a 1 week hiatus, "The Ethicist" returns to addressing letters (one in need of drastic editing) with questions that have little or nothing to do with ethics. NY Times: Please hire someone who distinguishes among ethics, morals, customs, manners. Or give up this column in favor of hard hitting journalism - as one finds in your "Style" section.
13
I've been married to a Jewish democrat for 45 years..I'm an Italian republican...I love Donald trump..my 2 sons love trump...my 2 daughters and wife voted for Hillary...every one can vote for who they want...it's not a problem ,it's their choice...if you respect them...u don't try to influence them
It's not my business who votes for who....and why is it a problem?
It's not my business who votes for who....and why is it a problem?
7
One should check this out before going on date 2. It is a deal breaker and if married will eventually lead to divorce. If this happens after marriage that your spouse went insane then consider it grounds for divorce.
8
How convenient that the NYT chose to report a situation where vitriol is being expressed by a Trump supporter. As a NON-Trump supporter, I have experienced the same vitriol--not from Trump supporters, but from my non-Trump supporting friends! As someone who was raised in a liberal academic household where intelligent discussion, the Socratic method, and objectivity were valued, I have often proposed less pessimistic ranting and a more balanced view of our current political situation--or at least consideration of an array of perspectives. At best, the response is stony silence and at worst, angry accusation, like "What side are you on anyway?!". So, like the husband in your column, I have chosen to keep my mouth shut and share my views primarily with a close but geographically distant family member who as a true liberal also values tolerance, objectivity and intellectual honesty. The sad thing is not so much that as close relatives we are both just preaching to the choir, but that some who have known us both all our lives either shut their ears or throw us the same kind of diatribe the wife in the article hurls at her husband. So I have discovered to my dismay, and quite late in life, that in our now alarmingly polarized country, narrow-mindedness and bigotry are present on both "sides". Sadly, the low road has become a two-way street.
15
I could have written every word of this comment myself. I'm very grateful that you wrote this. I have tried to have in-depth conversations with my friends and I've been met with the same response, silence or "Are you a republican now?" Occasionally I get to the "plague on both your houses" stage and actually don't want to see any of my friends.
5
oh lighten up. clearly the worse offenders are those who side with the fascist.
there is no moral equivalence. and it's fake to equate the terms.
there is no moral equivalence. and it's fake to equate the terms.
33
You've obviously never tried to have an intelligent exchange of views with a Trump supporter. I have - many times. Regardless of how polite I was, they all ended in a similar manner. Presented with facts challenging their conspiracy-filled worldview, they got angry, called me names and blocked/unfriended me. Equating overzealous liberals with Trump (not Republican !) supporters is a fallacy. You're equating normal, albeit flawed, people with cult members.
4
My mother regularly went through my room. Looked in between shirt folds in the dresser, inside my shoes, etc. So, I never trusted her. When I really needed her, I couldn't bring myself to tell her I did. Then, she died when before I turned 20. I'm in my 50's now, and I never worked this out. It kept me from having children myself. Please, please, please do not do this to your children.
38
The first thing to remember when you and your spouse disagree about politics is that there are two sides to every argument and you may be the one who is wrong.
4
Regarding the mother reading her daughter's diary -
When I reached my early teens - and began receiving letters in he mail addressed specifically to me - my mother felt she had the right to open and read my mail - especially if the letters seemed to be "important" - such as something from school --
I expressed my displeasure and asked her not to open my mail - and she said okay - but continued to do so, despite my protests --
Finally - one day after she opened a letter addressed to me which I felt was important and private - I told her the next time she opened any of my mail I would get a post office box and have all my mail sent there - and then she would never know anything about my correspondence with anyone --
Knowing that I was serious and not bluffing, my mother stopped and never opened another letter of mine ever again -
But the damage was done --
I never really trusted my mother again on a certain level - and - as a result - there were a number of major events in my life which I never shared with her - and she never knew about -
Parents -- be very, very careful about betraying the trust of your children - because once damaged, it can be very difficult - if not impossible - to repair...
When I reached my early teens - and began receiving letters in he mail addressed specifically to me - my mother felt she had the right to open and read my mail - especially if the letters seemed to be "important" - such as something from school --
I expressed my displeasure and asked her not to open my mail - and she said okay - but continued to do so, despite my protests --
Finally - one day after she opened a letter addressed to me which I felt was important and private - I told her the next time she opened any of my mail I would get a post office box and have all my mail sent there - and then she would never know anything about my correspondence with anyone --
Knowing that I was serious and not bluffing, my mother stopped and never opened another letter of mine ever again -
But the damage was done --
I never really trusted my mother again on a certain level - and - as a result - there were a number of major events in my life which I never shared with her - and she never knew about -
Parents -- be very, very careful about betraying the trust of your children - because once damaged, it can be very difficult - if not impossible - to repair...
37
The mother reading her child's diary, allegedly for the good of the child, is not only snooping where she doesn't belong; she also sounds very over-controlling of her child. An angry rebellion may be in store in the future of this mother-daughter relationship.
29
Love this about not reading your child's diary - it is so tempting and so not right to do. I kept a diary for years beginning at age eight but when I realized my mother was reading it I began writing in code - I needed to write then and I still do now. I did talk to my mother about it biut I never trusted her again.
24
"I feel it is important to read it, so I can frame a guiding narrative to boost her confidence, assuage her fears, minimize and redirect negative habits, provide encouragement."
Humans can rationalize pretty much anything.
Humans can rationalize pretty much anything.
28
I would imagine that the Trump-loving wife in Case 1 is someone who values clarity over complexity and has a tendency to get impatient in the face of difficult problems. She puts ends ahead of means. She likes Trump because she thinks Washington needs shaking up and he's the guy to do it. She thinks America, under Obama, has become too soft on the "bad guys" out there (like Assad). She's mad at her husband because he won't share her feelings - in fact, finds Trump repulsive. There's validity on both sides of this disagreement. I bet if the husband starts conceding that his wife isn't "wrong" about her feelings and says, "Let's give Trump a chance," she'll drop the antagonism and things will calm down. A sense of humor would help, too.
6
In response to lh in Toronto: No one can EVER guarantee that a marriage will last forever. lh in Toronto's contortions to find a way to warn against marrying a Muslim are just as insidious as the aunt's comment. Furthermore, A child born in the United States, can not be taken out of the U.S. without the consent of both parents (unless custody has been completely given to one parent). You can't even apply for a passport for a child without BOTH parents being present at the application appointment. Saudi culture may consider children as "belonging" to the father, but that has no import in the U.S. Here's wishing "Name withheld" and her boyfriend much happiness together.
10
There is a difference between marital discussion and marital repetition. Couples who repeat, for the 1001st time what they said 1000 times before, get nowhere. This is a concept I've employed often as a psychologist meeting with couples.
Our current president makes it a habit to repeat, endlessly, the same self-serving statements that he's said all along, whether at an announcement of his choice for Labor Secretary or at another campaign rally for the office he just won.
It's hard to imagine anything productive in political debate among married partners when there is really nothing new being said. It's not like discussing Bush's decision to go to war vs. his Medicare drug plan, or Obama's health insurance vs. his conduct of a drone war. In those cases, there are new and nuanced policies that lend themselves for discussion and debate. I'm sure that the couple referred to in this letter have absolutely nothing new to say and would be well advised, rather than continue to debate, agree to go to dinner, take in a movie, and make love, but don't keep repeating the same things over and over again.
Our current president makes it a habit to repeat, endlessly, the same self-serving statements that he's said all along, whether at an announcement of his choice for Labor Secretary or at another campaign rally for the office he just won.
It's hard to imagine anything productive in political debate among married partners when there is really nothing new being said. It's not like discussing Bush's decision to go to war vs. his Medicare drug plan, or Obama's health insurance vs. his conduct of a drone war. In those cases, there are new and nuanced policies that lend themselves for discussion and debate. I'm sure that the couple referred to in this letter have absolutely nothing new to say and would be well advised, rather than continue to debate, agree to go to dinner, take in a movie, and make love, but don't keep repeating the same things over and over again.
10
Good advice....as someone who also sees couples, I'd also suggest that the husband make a clear statement such as, "I will no longer discuss this subjects with you, because I'd like to protect our relationship from this anger that has no solution. I'll choose to remove myself from the room, etc." And then, of course, he has to follow through. This would open up the space for other activities (or open up the space for the issues that are underneath that I suspect are more important.)
17
Personally I couldn't live with a person who supports Trump. I'd get a divorce. I would have zero respect for that person and nothing in common.
33
To name withheld with the Trump supporting wife: either insist that your wife get counseling or get a divorce. Someone who is that susceptible to Trump's vitriol has serious issues.
16
re the wife and husband
are most Trump supporters like that ?
does anyone have a theory as to why they are like that ?
based on my limited exsposure, trump supporter vitriol comes from an astounding lack of correct information
here is a simple parlor trick: next time you are with a group of 5 or so people, as everyone to guess (silently) what % of the US population is muslim
most people will guess 5% or more ; one person told me the absurd figure of 20%
the correct answer is about 1%
Trump supporters are, a far as i can tell, living in a world of mis info; true liberals do it to,but, still...
are most Trump supporters like that ?
does anyone have a theory as to why they are like that ?
based on my limited exsposure, trump supporter vitriol comes from an astounding lack of correct information
here is a simple parlor trick: next time you are with a group of 5 or so people, as everyone to guess (silently) what % of the US population is muslim
most people will guess 5% or more ; one person told me the absurd figure of 20%
the correct answer is about 1%
Trump supporters are, a far as i can tell, living in a world of mis info; true liberals do it to,but, still...
11
Please see patalcant's comment...there is no "but, still..." It's poisonous, no matter WHO does it.
3
LW3: This is an excellent example of the difference between meaning well and doing well. Stop snooping. If you want to know what your daughter is thinking, ask her. Be a good listener, and be accepting and loving.
33
The problem is you may be listening to her peers and the pressures they put on her. Being honest to their parents is not a part of it. As we found out the hard way.
2
Unfortunately, I see no hope for the husband in the first case. Over the course of this election, I've seen some of my friends on Facebook fall under Trump's spell and go from reasonable, decent human beings to angry, hateful, raving lunatics. Eventually, I had to unfriend them to preserve my sanity. Trump fandom is like a cult, where they're taught to hate everyone who is different and to trust no one but their Dear Leader. The wife's behavior will only get worse and worse as Trump himself becomes more and more unhinged. This is not about a difference of opinion, this is more of a mental health issue. If the husband wants to preserve his sanity, get out of this marriage ASAP.
63
I've seen liberals act just as bad or worse.
8
The wife's hate for liberals and Obama will decline at the same rate as the husband's hate of Trump. This is not an ethical issue.
I’m very concerned she thinks the boyfriend will end their relationship to somehow “protect” her from one suspicious aunt and that her dad will "take it our on her". This situation requires a psychiatrist, not an ethicist.
The mother, trying to manufacture a perfect world for her daughter, clearly has a psychological not an ethical issue.
I’m very concerned she thinks the boyfriend will end their relationship to somehow “protect” her from one suspicious aunt and that her dad will "take it our on her". This situation requires a psychiatrist, not an ethicist.
The mother, trying to manufacture a perfect world for her daughter, clearly has a psychological not an ethical issue.
12
The wife who "hates" liberals is expressing her emotions which she both has a right to do and needs to do for their relationship to remain healthy. The "weary" husband has the capacity to change the conversation from binary left/right to understanding how and why she feels this way. The ethicist is off base concluding that her anger reflects lack of respect for her husband - it reflects the pain of anger, a profoundly bad feeling, something a husband can help with through understanding. This "polarization" meme goes on despite plenty of evidence that by asking questions in a different fashion there is actually great consensus among Americans. I would also suggest to the husband that he could think about how deliciously naughty it might feel to be attracted to someon (his wife) who is in a different political place - why not have some fun?
9
I am sorry but expressing your emotions in a way that could jeopardize the relationship is nobody's right. What she should do, with the help of her husband, is to find the real reason why she is finding it pertinent to express her opinions in such a recalcitrant way. Only through open and honest conversation will they both find out the real reasons for this behavior and move on to a more fulfilling relationship. Including having "some fun".
15
The ethicist is correct. It is you who is off base.
11
"The ethicist is off base concluding that her anger reflects lack of respect for her husband - it reflects the pain of anger, a profoundly bad feeling, something a husband can help with through understanding."
Neither one of you knows what her anger reflects. While the husband has described his feelings in detail, the wife has not shared her feelings with us, and both you and the ethicist are projecting your own opinions onto her.
Neither one of you knows what her anger reflects. While the husband has described his feelings in detail, the wife has not shared her feelings with us, and both you and the ethicist are projecting your own opinions onto her.
4
When I discovered that my mother was reading letters that I had written to my peer aged cousin, which she had offered to send along in her own letters to my aunt, she let me know that she could not be trusted to respect my privacy. I was probably not much older than the letter writer's daughter in this case. This invasion of privacy led to my never truly trusting her with my inner thoughts and secrets. It was a hard lesson for me to learn so early and our relationship was never close as I grew older, which I feel was a result of this breach.
50
In a marriage, you have two basic choices to make - you can either be happy or be right. You can pick which one is more important to you, because you will not be able to have both at the same time.
21
I've heard the quote as, "You can be either married or right, but not both." The question seems to be, "How much do I have to be wrong to live in this relationship?"
3
These three questions are all hardly ethical issues, but more inquiries into dealing with personality disorders of various stripes. Bigotry, intolerance and parental smothering. The answers are obvious enough to all three of them, it's a sorry commentary on what people think passes for acceptable behavior. To the mom asking about the diary, I can't believe that's even a question. Your job isn't to delude your children into a false sense of security - it's to prepare them for the world, scary real bits and all. Wow.
20
Theresa, you want to frame a guiding narrative to boost her confidence,...minimize and redirect nagativity....provide encouragement... Good Lord, get over yourself. Your daughter is not a puppet that you can control. You say your motives are pure, but are they? Is there something about control going on here? Even if you just want to be the best mom you can, this is not the way to do so.
If you really want to fail at those things you list, keep reading. She will either guess, or directly find out, you are reading her innermost thoughts and you may never recover your relationship, and almost surely will lose some or most of her willingness to open up to you. Then the only narrative you will be framing is one asking to rebuild the trust she will have lost.
Nine years old is TOO old to be the object of prying. This is not something you accidentally came upon or a story she turned in at school about which the teacher calls. This is a DIARY you INTENTIONALLY read without permission. She is already part of school and social groups, she has spread her wings. She still needs you, if course, and wants your love and guidance. But she is growing up. You will help her grow into a confident loving young girl and woman by modeling behavior for her to emulate. This modeling includes giving personal and psychic space to others.
If you really want to fail at those things you list, keep reading. She will either guess, or directly find out, you are reading her innermost thoughts and you may never recover your relationship, and almost surely will lose some or most of her willingness to open up to you. Then the only narrative you will be framing is one asking to rebuild the trust she will have lost.
Nine years old is TOO old to be the object of prying. This is not something you accidentally came upon or a story she turned in at school about which the teacher calls. This is a DIARY you INTENTIONALLY read without permission. She is already part of school and social groups, she has spread her wings. She still needs you, if course, and wants your love and guidance. But she is growing up. You will help her grow into a confident loving young girl and woman by modeling behavior for her to emulate. This modeling includes giving personal and psychic space to others.
35
Regarding the Saudi boyfriend. I would say that the aunt is disgusting but, and this is a huge but - if the boyfriend ever decides to rethink his religion and family relationships this young woman might find herself in a horrible place. Especially if they marry and have children. The children would be considered his and he could return to Saudi Arabia where women have no rights. Be careful.
16
Not if the kids are born in America and are American citizens. There is no ownership of children here - parents have equal rights. Not only that, women are not chattel here. She will be able to see this coming and take the appropriate action something which we hope never happens.
9
If every couple facing a challenge, even a major challenge, divorced, there would not many marriages--especially long-term marriages. I cannot understand the automatic reaction by some to LW1's dilemma of recommending immediate divorce, without knowing more about the couple and marriage. Is this the capstone of a fairly miserable 30+ years or has the marriage been good or OK up to now? LW1says they have discussed politics respectfully in the past. Does this indicate they are generally respectful of each other overall? LW1 does not say he does not love his wife, but says he is afraid of her (presumably who she has become compared to who she was in the past).
Before running before the judge, he should try to see if she will have herself checked out physically. If her behavior is as over the top as he indicates, she could be experiencing health issues. Perhaps she is experiencing mental health issues. Even she will not go for a physical and/or mental evaluation, he should do both. He may be depressed or anxious. At a minimum, he might need help developing a strategy to deal with the changes he sees in her. Perhaps there is a way to negotiate a detente, even before a third party. Perhaps their marriage needs a re-set. It is not healthy to suffer in silence.
People and marriages have gone through challenges and illnesses--physical, mental, addictive; problems with jobs, kids or parents; infidelity. Not all survive but many do and come out stronger on the other side.
Before running before the judge, he should try to see if she will have herself checked out physically. If her behavior is as over the top as he indicates, she could be experiencing health issues. Perhaps she is experiencing mental health issues. Even she will not go for a physical and/or mental evaluation, he should do both. He may be depressed or anxious. At a minimum, he might need help developing a strategy to deal with the changes he sees in her. Perhaps there is a way to negotiate a detente, even before a third party. Perhaps their marriage needs a re-set. It is not healthy to suffer in silence.
People and marriages have gone through challenges and illnesses--physical, mental, addictive; problems with jobs, kids or parents; infidelity. Not all survive but many do and come out stronger on the other side.
11
Daughter's Diary: LW has posed her rationale for invading her daughter's privacy by suggesting she is trying to "boost her confidence, assuage her fears, minimize and redirect negative habits, provide encouragement." Please stop micromanaging your preteen child and pay attention to the poor model of adult womanhood you are depicting. Minimize and re-direct negative habits? Masturbation or extreme religious views? Or are you really referring to YOUR insecurities? The first step to abetter relationship with your daughter would be honesty with yourself.
28
1. Tolerate it or divorce her. and know that you are not alone in your suffering.
2. The aunt and uncle aren't necessarily racist to think that their niece is being played for a green card- after all, the boyfriend could just as well be a European angling for a green card. And from the story it appears he is an illegal (sorry, undocumented) immigrant, so its a possibility.
What the aunt and uncle are, unfortunately, is small minded and petty- after all it could be (and probably is) love.
3. What are you, a crazy person?
2. The aunt and uncle aren't necessarily racist to think that their niece is being played for a green card- after all, the boyfriend could just as well be a European angling for a green card. And from the story it appears he is an illegal (sorry, undocumented) immigrant, so its a possibility.
What the aunt and uncle are, unfortunately, is small minded and petty- after all it could be (and probably is) love.
3. What are you, a crazy person?
7
1. Those counseling divorce for the first couple are joyless zealots in their own right. The husband should stand up for himself, respectfully, and inform his wife he won't be talked down to because they disagree. But you don't throw away a 30-year marriage because a bunch of strangers on the internet hate the president.
2. The aunt was tactless and tasteless, but the author was fishing for the response she got. There is not enough information to conclude the aunt spoke out of racism or that her attitude would be different to a beau from Australia. The boyfriend's estranged family would likely respond the same way. Avoid this relative with no guilt until the aunt agrees to behave herself.
3. A 9-year old can't be writing anything in her diary that is particularly earth shattering, so no need to snoop in it. If you detect a disturbing or abnormal change in your daughter's personality or behavior that she won't openly discuss with you, then all bets are off. Until then, leave her to her own thoughts and feelings.
2. The aunt was tactless and tasteless, but the author was fishing for the response she got. There is not enough information to conclude the aunt spoke out of racism or that her attitude would be different to a beau from Australia. The boyfriend's estranged family would likely respond the same way. Avoid this relative with no guilt until the aunt agrees to behave herself.
3. A 9-year old can't be writing anything in her diary that is particularly earth shattering, so no need to snoop in it. If you detect a disturbing or abnormal change in your daughter's personality or behavior that she won't openly discuss with you, then all bets are off. Until then, leave her to her own thoughts and feelings.
12
While the question here is posed as an ethical one, it seems to me that "The Ethicist" has a responsibility to have responded more fully by discussing other issues that may be operating within the presenting situation. From a psychological standpoint, it sounds like the wife's ego functioning and mental status may be compromised. Although we do not know this for sure from the limited information, it is certainly appropriate to raise it. Since the presidential campaign and election, there has been an increase in my own psychotherapy practice of narratives that contain similar content. The husband says he is frightened and I believe this should be taken seriously. I would ask “The Ethicist”: If the writer was a woman disclosing this about her husband, would you not be more likely to consider this as an element of abuse and inquire about her safety before you send her back to her husband to discuss it? At the very least, seems to me that the ethical thing to do here is to suggest that the writer seek professional advice from a mental health professional as well as “The Ethicist”.
23
He should seek professional help but not just from a mental health professional. His wife should have a full physical evaluation to ensure she is not experiencing acute or long-term health issues. If she will not, he at least should speak to his doctor about events (all the better if they share doctors). Some commenters on other threads have suggested Trump may have the onset of dementia because of his suspicion and lies. Perhaps LW1's wife has such an issue. She may have a mental health issue. He says in the past, while they differ politically, they have been able to respectfully converse. No more... she may have merely become the zealot he terms her, but she also may have some underlying mental or emotional challenge with which she is dealing..
I agree, regardless, the LW should go for a consultation himself. If his wife consents to evaluations and is found healthy, he will need help to develop strategy to deal withe her behavior and, hopefully, reach a detente. If she has a health issue, he might still benefit from a professional consultation on how to cope. Yes, I think the fact that he said he is "afraid" of his wife is a red flag. I am not sure he fears for his safety so much as to fear who he perceives she has become.
This election and the beginnings of the administration are causing much angst--and i suspect not only in families that differ politically. There are real differences between like-thinking folks on what to do--my 40+ yr. spouse and I included.
I agree, regardless, the LW should go for a consultation himself. If his wife consents to evaluations and is found healthy, he will need help to develop strategy to deal withe her behavior and, hopefully, reach a detente. If she has a health issue, he might still benefit from a professional consultation on how to cope. Yes, I think the fact that he said he is "afraid" of his wife is a red flag. I am not sure he fears for his safety so much as to fear who he perceives she has become.
This election and the beginnings of the administration are causing much angst--and i suspect not only in families that differ politically. There are real differences between like-thinking folks on what to do--my 40+ yr. spouse and I included.
8
Re: diary -- if the child starts behaving erratically, time to look at the diary. However, and this is sort of the e-mail problem -- how much should one put in writing in life? What can be confiscated and read in some kind of criminal investigation? How much privacy do we really have. All very sad. Have been reading myriad letters (by Petrarch, before him by the Latin authors) that were intended to be published. (Curious that priests and MDs apparently can claim client confidentiality - but the diary writer cannot not.) Just saying there is the real nasty world out there.
Trump-transference. When people rant about politics I usually wonder what is really bothering them? If one really cares, one needs to somehow take action.
Politics may be safer to be noisy about than the real problem causing huge frustration.
Ivanka was encouraged to marry a nice Jewish boy by her family. Would that mine had behaved the same way. These days people seem to marry when number two is on the way. But if you love him, marry him. If you divorce post-green card...some percentage of marriages fail.. and life goes on. Most of us have had our hearts broken.. and more than once. But there's much to enjoy in life besides what may be a complicated and IMO sometimes inhibiting "love" relationship. Travel, food, movies, books, crafts, art, music to name a few.(areas where people often don't agree!!)
Trump-transference. When people rant about politics I usually wonder what is really bothering them? If one really cares, one needs to somehow take action.
Politics may be safer to be noisy about than the real problem causing huge frustration.
Ivanka was encouraged to marry a nice Jewish boy by her family. Would that mine had behaved the same way. These days people seem to marry when number two is on the way. But if you love him, marry him. If you divorce post-green card...some percentage of marriages fail.. and life goes on. Most of us have had our hearts broken.. and more than once. But there's much to enjoy in life besides what may be a complicated and IMO sometimes inhibiting "love" relationship. Travel, food, movies, books, crafts, art, music to name a few.(areas where people often don't agree!!)
4
To Theresa:
I read my child's diary briefly because she seemed 'off' for a bit. I learned a lot but felt semi-horrified that I was doing it. She was ten at the time. Reading it reassured me that what she was going through was more or less normal. So I stopped. But then, because I was feeling so guilty, I said to her in a really friendly way that I was so happy she was keeping a diary and if she ever felt like reading parts of it out loud to me I would be happy to listen. She immediately ran for it and read a paragraph to me; in the years since she sometimes does this still. Or, more frequently, she leaves it for me with a paper clip on the page she wants me to look at. Sometimes she asks me to respond in writing because she prefers not to speak about the thing that she is considering in her diary. I think some kids value parental guidance but I also think it must be on their own terms. And having felt self-horror about my initial ethical breach, I have not been tempted since to read beyond the paper clip. Was it a mistake for me to have read without permission originally? Yes. I regret it. But at least that error led to something that we both value. It does not excuse my error but it helps me live with it.
I read my child's diary briefly because she seemed 'off' for a bit. I learned a lot but felt semi-horrified that I was doing it. She was ten at the time. Reading it reassured me that what she was going through was more or less normal. So I stopped. But then, because I was feeling so guilty, I said to her in a really friendly way that I was so happy she was keeping a diary and if she ever felt like reading parts of it out loud to me I would be happy to listen. She immediately ran for it and read a paragraph to me; in the years since she sometimes does this still. Or, more frequently, she leaves it for me with a paper clip on the page she wants me to look at. Sometimes she asks me to respond in writing because she prefers not to speak about the thing that she is considering in her diary. I think some kids value parental guidance but I also think it must be on their own terms. And having felt self-horror about my initial ethical breach, I have not been tempted since to read beyond the paper clip. Was it a mistake for me to have read without permission originally? Yes. I regret it. But at least that error led to something that we both value. It does not excuse my error but it helps me live with it.
36
Lucky you, and lucky daughter. Not all such breaches end well.
7
Yet you did not tell your daughter you had actually read it without her permission. Sneaky.
5
I have kept a diary for almost 30 years and would be incensed if my mother or anyone else had ever read it. Stop reading your child's diary! It is an invasion of privacy and speaks to your insecurity regarding your relationship with her. Work on that and leave her diary alone.
41
The question was "is it ethical of me to remain quiet?" Of course it is! If spouses did not remain quiet on hot topics be it Trump. diets, or table manners no one would be married.
12
It's perfectly appropriate to talk with a family member- especially a young person- if you think they may be making a bad choice as far as who they might marry. However, you precede that by getting to know the person to see if your instinct is right.
6
Telling someone else not to get married to a particular person never works. Better to ask questions, and see if it gets someone to think again.
6
LW3: Please send your spouse your Google search history - it'd help to 'frame a guiding narrative to boost your confidence, assuage your fears, minimize and redirect negative habits, provide encouragement.'
10
To the parent reading her child's diary: how would you feel if someone read YOUR diary?
17
My mom did read mine when I was ten and then admitted it later when I was 22. I was mad. Then, when she explained that two of my friends who were 14 and 16 got pregnant by two of the worst punks on earth who disappeared from their lives made her worry, I could understand it was not a personal assault on my privacy rather a noble and genuine attempt to steer me away from that whole crowd (of which I wanted to be a part of) which she did.
1
I'd divorce her - she sounds cruel, intolerant and ignorant. Find someone who values common decency.
30
Rethink your relationship with the Saudi boyfriend. He may think he's an atheist now but when babies arrive people get more interested in their religion. How will you feel when he wants to raise his children as Muslims? He still has an attachment to his family wondering if he is being a disappointment. Grandparenthood will make his parents more interested in your relationship. You don't want to be the mother who has to kidnap her kids from a Muslim country because Daddy suddenly decides he wants to live there with his kids.
His immigration status is a very important matter. He is probably not living in this country legally but outstayed his student visa. A person can be shocking nice when the real reason is a green card. You should look into this issue very carefully before you fault your aunt for being rude when she was actually warning you of the dangers.
His immigration status is a very important matter. He is probably not living in this country legally but outstayed his student visa. A person can be shocking nice when the real reason is a green card. You should look into this issue very carefully before you fault your aunt for being rude when she was actually warning you of the dangers.
14
I guess now we know that LW2's aunt or uncle reads the NY Times.
6
I fear what we now call liberalism isn't actually liberalism, and what we call conservative is no longer conservative. There is a spectrum of ideas about healthcare, individual responsibility, role of religion, international affairs that we have lost sight of. We have given the conversation over to the fringes and people who do not deeply understand history or the issues.
The fringes are mean.
The fringes are mean.
17
When the patient came in complaining of her arm hurting if she moved it just so, the wise doctor said, "Well, stop moving it that way." This is a long term marriage. I'm sure there is a social network, children, and a shared history. So you have a political disagreement. Stop taking about politics for a while. The world will go just fine. Maybe suggest that you will read Charles Krauthammer if she's willing to read Paul Krugman. Who knows? You both might learn something from the experience, or from the silence on the subject of politics. That's what marriage is all about. And hey, there's a plus side. On the presidential race at least, there's no need for you two to go the polls in 2020. Or, probably, ever.
2
Why do people think Carville and Matalin have political differences? I don't even think they hold political views, they just talk a good game. The sense I get from each of them is that they could turn and represent/advise a politician from the "other" party in a blink of an eye as long as the check cleared. I think they recognized each other as kindred spirits for the reasons I've stated and that is why their marriage works.
17
As I understand, even Mary Matalin has stepped back from being a Republican. Since last year, she has declared herself a libertarian. My brother read her and Carville's book years ago and his remembrance is she leaned libertarian even years ago.
8
Regarding the Trump zealot wife: my hunch is that she
was always more conservative, and held "politically incorrect"
points of view that she keep to herself. Now, she's been set
free to express what she's always thought, but felt socially
constrained to not reveal.
I find myself in a similar situation, albeit with a very good friend of
long standing (so obviously not as serious as a spouse) and I doubt the
friendship will ever be the same.
was always more conservative, and held "politically incorrect"
points of view that she keep to herself. Now, she's been set
free to express what she's always thought, but felt socially
constrained to not reveal.
I find myself in a similar situation, albeit with a very good friend of
long standing (so obviously not as serious as a spouse) and I doubt the
friendship will ever be the same.
51
"...set free to express what she's always thought, but felt constrained to not reveal." And there has gone our society. It's "politically correct" these days to act civilized and show tolerance of others. We may never recover from Donald Trump.
26
1. Divorce. Not only do you have opposing world views (difficult enough to reconcile) but you are married to a person who is contemptuous of those who hold your view (and thus of you). Time to let that one go.
3. Diary reading. Why are you doing this? Respect your child's privacy. Unless you have valid reasons to suspect the child is in danger, the child has the right to privacy.
3. Diary reading. Why are you doing this? Respect your child's privacy. Unless you have valid reasons to suspect the child is in danger, the child has the right to privacy.
30
If difference of political views has to be deal with by divorce then I would have to divorce half of my relatives and the other half would would have to divorce me. As is, I love them the way they are, they love me (I hope) the way I am, and we continue to get along splendidly!
14
Divorce because of lack of respect. Your situation sounds different.
14
My father and mother suffered a 50+ years relationship with opposing political and religious views. They each had an ethical core that I benefited from. However, it is clear to me that they should have divorced. After my mother's death, my father married someone with whom he was in synch. The relationship was transformative. I loved and admired my parents for different reasons. No doubt they recognized the others goodness. But I am sad that my mother did not have the chance to have what my father had, and glad that my father had his second wife for the rest of his life.
12
Theresa, it will be difficult to "frame a guiding narrative" for your daughter once she discovers that you have read her diary because she'll stop speaking to you, and justifiably so. Everyone, even a child, is entitled to private thoughts.
94
Off hand, I would say your marriage might be over. Your wife is bullying you and may be exhibiting racist sentiments. Do you want to live with that and are you still in love with someone who is not very lovable? It seems to be verging on abuse. Trump support may just be a symptom or allowable provocation of a deeper disaffection for you.
64
A nine year old child has no reasonable expectation of privacy. If parents feel a need to read a diary, they are completely within their rights to do so. Better safe than sorry.
3
Tell that to the child when she is 13 and has found out.
Good luck!!!!
Good luck!!!!
39
I hope you don't have kids. I grew up with strict parents who encouraged me to keep a diary - my mom had one also growing up -- but they never tried to read it. Do so and you may lose your kids' trust forever. Want to keep your kids safe? It's done via setting high expectations for them and being a good role model, not invading their privacy.
62
If parents feel a need to read a child's diary, perhaps they should first take the step of building a relationship built on trust and communication. The things this parent wants to learn here aren't about the child being in danger; they are about an unsure, insecure parent, who has good intentions, but wants to fairy godmother a relationship that probably just requires more or different forms of engagement than currently exist.
6
The aunt and uncle seem to be bigots; they should feel the social consequences of bigotry. Maybe you could write them a note to tell them that their response to your boyfriend is offensive to you, and that is why you won't visit them now - that if they are interested in welcoming your BF in a friendly way, let you know.
In conversations with bigots about immigration, they are very law-oriented. As though the law isn't established and amended by legislatures in response to voters. The concept of borders is based on a fiction, but even though borders will be here for the foreseeable future, how we react to people who cross those borders shows who we are in our character. Your aunt and uncle probably don't want those kind of people here - and fall back on immigration status as a false reason. If your BF were a white Briton, would they have cared? They will say yes if you ask them, but it seems very possible it is his Saudi looks, not his value as a human, that they are reacting to. Don't let your Dad's fear of the truth keep you from a path that is your witness to the truth. It's easy to say, I know, and hard to do - no one wants to rock the family boat, but approach them, even softly, with the truth. Or the family boat becomes a barge of garbage.
In conversations with bigots about immigration, they are very law-oriented. As though the law isn't established and amended by legislatures in response to voters. The concept of borders is based on a fiction, but even though borders will be here for the foreseeable future, how we react to people who cross those borders shows who we are in our character. Your aunt and uncle probably don't want those kind of people here - and fall back on immigration status as a false reason. If your BF were a white Briton, would they have cared? They will say yes if you ask them, but it seems very possible it is his Saudi looks, not his value as a human, that they are reacting to. Don't let your Dad's fear of the truth keep you from a path that is your witness to the truth. It's easy to say, I know, and hard to do - no one wants to rock the family boat, but approach them, even softly, with the truth. Or the family boat becomes a barge of garbage.
25
Bigot is a harsh and unfair word for this situation without much more evidence, but like the Trumpians, the true SJW doesn't require a lot of evidence for an extreme view.
There are a lot of people who oppose illegal immigration on principle, including many legal immigrants of colour. But of course to you they are all not just racists, but bigots.
There are a lot of people who oppose illegal immigration on principle, including many legal immigrants of colour. But of course to you they are all not just racists, but bigots.
5
The married couple divided by politics encapsulates the larger crisis of political discourse in this country: the left and right have lost respect for each other, making dialogue all but impossible. As a lifelong center-left Democrat, I have nothing but contempt for Trump and his minions, and for the mealy-mouthed Republican "leaders" who aid and abet them. (Happily, my wife of 33 years and I are in agreement on this.) A marriage counselor might advise spouses "engaged in a great civil war" to call a truce and stop trying to win an unwinnable argument. But how do you counsel a nation divided against itself? What is the therapy for an ailing body politic?
33
Sorry to say it, but it's a tossup on which ends first, the Trump presidency or that marriage.
78
I'm a Trump zealot, and thought only I used that self-description. I see now at least two.
All my friends are lefto, so I keep my politics to myself. All that disclosure does, is start fights. I ventilate here and other websites, and to like-minded e-friends.
The beleaguered spouse might not have any lines open for communication, with his spouse. If not, then doom.
If yes, ask if his alternate views are acceptable. or if quiet is possible in the household, or if he is obliged to respond, vs tuning out, during a rant or so.
=
what is his desire, a quiet passive spouse, if so, the politics could be an outlet for a silenced wife;
or does he wish her to have a political conversion?
or just chill out?
T people like me can be quite zealous...and I have as much, or more, Obama derangement, as some have T derangement, and I enjoy the discomfiture, as in very
All my friends are lefto, so I keep my politics to myself. All that disclosure does, is start fights. I ventilate here and other websites, and to like-minded e-friends.
The beleaguered spouse might not have any lines open for communication, with his spouse. If not, then doom.
If yes, ask if his alternate views are acceptable. or if quiet is possible in the household, or if he is obliged to respond, vs tuning out, during a rant or so.
=
what is his desire, a quiet passive spouse, if so, the politics could be an outlet for a silenced wife;
or does he wish her to have a political conversion?
or just chill out?
T people like me can be quite zealous...and I have as much, or more, Obama derangement, as some have T derangement, and I enjoy the discomfiture, as in very
3
Lefto? Geeze.
17
Fortress America announced that he was a Trump zealot, so why are you surprised that he describes "all his friends" (hah!) as lefto.
I know several Trump zealots and, without exception, they believe that the election has finally given them the right to speak freely, in other words to call anybody who isn't a Trump zealot any insulting name that pops into their heads. Freedom!
The husband is is a masochist. He will stay in the home and take her abuse and write whiny letters. He is as much a coward as she is a bully. To care what happens to them is to waste compassion.
I know several Trump zealots and, without exception, they believe that the election has finally given them the right to speak freely, in other words to call anybody who isn't a Trump zealot any insulting name that pops into their heads. Freedom!
The husband is is a masochist. He will stay in the home and take her abuse and write whiny letters. He is as much a coward as she is a bully. To care what happens to them is to waste compassion.
8
Ha, my girlfriend voted for Trump and I'm definitely on the liberal end, too. My best advice: learn to be a sharp arguer. She brought out the "liberals are such sore losers" thing once or twice, too, but I'm such a critical arguer (and enjoy it), that she doesn't like to bring up political stuff too often. The Lakoff 10-point advice that's been going around on Facebook says not to argue with Trump supporters, but if they bring the subject up, it is your responsibility to destroy their arguments then and there.
51
If after 30 years someone's personality drastically changes, couldn't that possibly be a symptom of a medical issue?
74
Married more than 30 years suggests that she might be getting old enough to start showing signs of dementia. My mother began showing signs of dementia in her mid-60s, and it sometimes manifested itself in displays of anger and rants triggered by the littlest things. I wouldn't wish that on any spouse (or anyone else). Maybe it would be wise to make sure there's no underlying medical condition.
71
You love this man, and you won’t be coming to family gatherings with your aunt and uncle unless they agree to be courteous to him. It’s not much to ask.
---------------------
It isn't at all unheard of that an immigrant would play an American for a green card. After all this guy has been in the US for many years and hasn't gotten one. It is interesting though that you would jump to bigotry. I wonder what he did when his student visa expired.
---------------------
It isn't at all unheard of that an immigrant would play an American for a green card. After all this guy has been in the US for many years and hasn't gotten one. It is interesting though that you would jump to bigotry. I wonder what he did when his student visa expired.
3
Imagine how you'll be "framing the guiding narrative" of your daughter's young life when she realizes you've read her diary (you know she will eventually, to think not would be folly verging on hubris). The first (and perhaps only) major lesson you'll impart to your young daughter is that you don't trust her and you're not to be trusted, you don't respect her as an individual, you don't respect her decision-making, and the relationship between mothers and daughters should be a secretive, antagonistic one.
No good can come of this.
Better to foster an open communication between the two of you where she feels confident if she does have something to discuss she can bring it up with you and will be there for her when she needs it.
Think of yourself at 9. Then think of yourself at 12. Think of yourself at 15, at 17. If you start reading her diary now, there's no way you'll stop before you both regret it.
No good can come of this.
Better to foster an open communication between the two of you where she feels confident if she does have something to discuss she can bring it up with you and will be there for her when she needs it.
Think of yourself at 9. Then think of yourself at 12. Think of yourself at 15, at 17. If you start reading her diary now, there's no way you'll stop before you both regret it.
35
Re: the first question on politics and marriage: John Gottman's research on marriages that succeed or fail has identified contempt as the most dangerous behavior of all, worse than criticism, defensiveness, and stone-walling. This situation describes contempt writ large. Silence and tolerance on the receiving end may make the experience of contempt worse. Doesn't sound good.
55
The husband clearly has contempt of his wife, which is probably what she is reacting to. She would be well rid of him.
3
I suppose that in American society today it would be a good thing for all of us to bone up on immigration technology. But more importantly, we need to stop judging people based on where they were born. How very stupid this woman's aunt and uncle must be to dismiss the boyfriend because he is a Saudi. Her father is a spineless man who lies rather than call these two bigots out. I'm glad I don't belong to that family.
6
Regarding LW#1's dilemma:
It sounds like there hasn't been a lot of socializing between her, her boyfriend and her family (dad and others). This is the way to build a relationship with her family. The would see the fine qualities her boyfriend possesses. It's easy to regard whole ethnic groups with suspicion, it's much harder to meet them one-to-one and find out what you have in common and become knowledgable about differences. Once your dad is on board, he can champion your boyfriend to your extended family. This doesn't guarantee everyone will change their beliefs but it does give everyone a chance. Yes, it's slow, hard work without any guarantees, but it sounds like the relationship is worth it. Good Luck.
It sounds like there hasn't been a lot of socializing between her, her boyfriend and her family (dad and others). This is the way to build a relationship with her family. The would see the fine qualities her boyfriend possesses. It's easy to regard whole ethnic groups with suspicion, it's much harder to meet them one-to-one and find out what you have in common and become knowledgable about differences. Once your dad is on board, he can champion your boyfriend to your extended family. This doesn't guarantee everyone will change their beliefs but it does give everyone a chance. Yes, it's slow, hard work without any guarantees, but it sounds like the relationship is worth it. Good Luck.
5
The complaint regarding the Trump-loving wife is just a bit too cute. It strains credulity, after watching months and months of vitriol and shaming hurled at anyone even slightly not in the anti-Trump camp, to think that this beleaguered husband has not engaged in the very same behavior he accuses his wife of.
On TV, radio, the streets, and even in my local bars and restaurants (anyplace really), have I witnessed the timid and silently suffering liberal.
Perhaps an honest appraisal on husband's part would reveal his own triggering behavior and micro-aggressions that has rendered his wife's space patently unsafe.
On TV, radio, the streets, and even in my local bars and restaurants (anyplace really), have I witnessed the timid and silently suffering liberal.
Perhaps an honest appraisal on husband's part would reveal his own triggering behavior and micro-aggressions that has rendered his wife's space patently unsafe.
8
To the woman with the Saudi boyfriend. If the two of you are going to spend a good part of your lives together, you are both going to have to find the strength within yourselves to weather your families' (and the world's) problems and prejudices with the fact that you come from different countries, and cultures, and religious backgrounds. You must decide how to deal with your extended family and since your father cannot wisely guide you on this, you must be his guide. Your boyfriend must decide if he can continue your relationship without it being damaged by his feelings of guilt and his desire to "protect" you.
11
It is more important for your daughter to have some privacy.
30
With regard to the woman with the boyfriend who is a foreign national, it is always fair for her to ask about the motivations of her partner. Maybe not so polite for others to ask. It is especially prudent whenever one member of a couple brings some tangible good to the relationship that is disproportionate to what the other brings. Or, when one partner bears a greater risk, should things go wrong. Nationality is just one of many goods that people bring to marriage that may be exploited by the partner.
4
The question on essential elements for a strong foundation for a potential or long existing marriage apply to race, religion, wealth, culture. In many society matchmaking is based mostly on matching these basic elements, yet the outcomes can be disastrous without shared ethical values over time and crisis.
1
By picking a female Trump supporter, this article at least doesn't dwell on one stereotype. But in making the enraged, vitriolic spouse a Trump supporter, it encourages another.
In the bluest of blue areas in which I live, the far more frequent story is of good friends excommunicating others who voted for Trump. In one case, it involved a friendship of 7 years, in which the friends and their spouses had traveled abroad together. The non-Trumper was simply furious, and would not conceal or restrain his outrage.
In the bluest of blue areas in which I live, the far more frequent story is of good friends excommunicating others who voted for Trump. In one case, it involved a friendship of 7 years, in which the friends and their spouses had traveled abroad together. The non-Trumper was simply furious, and would not conceal or restrain his outrage.
4
The best strategy for dealing with sociopaths is to completely disengage from them. Anyone who voted for Trump clearly lacks a conscience. It's the best test of character I can think of.
15
"Picking"?? Someone wrote in. It's not bias. Sheesh.
1
M - How many others were there to choose from?
1
Reading your daughter's diary is a mortal sin and you should stop immediately! I am in my 60's now, but in my high school years I kept a journal on the recommendation of my English teacher, who encouraged all in the class to do so. We were encouraged to include poetry, short stories, innermost thoughts, anything that came to mind (pen). We could share as we wanted, in class, to each other, whomever, or not share at all. I had an idea I could write thoughtful essays, and so I did. One in particular was inspired by watching a streetlight through the trees, with it coming and going. My mother found and read my journal, then gave me the third degree about my "drug use" (it was the 60's after all). I was grounded until I saw fit to "come clean", which was never. My father intervened and the grounding was lifted, but I never wrote another word in my journal. Creativity was shattered with an overbearing and controlling parent.
109
Oh parents....as a high school senior, I had a boyfriend who moved to another state after we graduated. This was back in the day and he and I wrote to each other for a while before it tapered off and ended. She actually asked to read his letters and cried when I said no. Probably she found them and did read them. There wasn't much exciting.
Although- fast forward to one of my own daughters who had a very difficult adolescence. She would write letters to people and not mail them, write in a journal, etc. and leave them out on the table as if she wanted them to be read by me. What to make of that?
Although- fast forward to one of my own daughters who had a very difficult adolescence. She would write letters to people and not mail them, write in a journal, etc. and leave them out on the table as if she wanted them to be read by me. What to make of that?
Is the extreme behavior by the wife a new thing? Has she always gone off on tangents, been fanatical, been oppressive? If not, given the likely age of the writer and the wife (presumably 50+, given 30 years of marriage) I'd consider a medical issue. Extreme changes in behavior can be caused my an underlying condition - stroke, dementia, etc.
43
Absolutely!
7
Mom who wants to read the diary: stop hovering and focus instead on having a close but not suffocating relationship with your daughter. She will tell you stuff if she feels she needs to. She is her own person and you will both be better off with boundaries, even at this age. If there were a circumstance where you were truly worried she was in danger, that might be different, but this just sounds nosy.
22
I would not put up with the behaviour of the Trump-supporting wife. Life is too short.
There can be deranged people on both sides of the political spectrum. That said, I don't think that there is an equivalency. I can get along just fine with people more liberal or conservative than myself, because the people I associate respect each other, and respect truth, dignity, different viewpoints, different religions, etc. Trump ran on a platform of no respect for the truth, dignity of others, etc. How is it possible to have a relationship with someone who is telling you that they have no respect?
Life is short. Get out now.
There can be deranged people on both sides of the political spectrum. That said, I don't think that there is an equivalency. I can get along just fine with people more liberal or conservative than myself, because the people I associate respect each other, and respect truth, dignity, different viewpoints, different religions, etc. Trump ran on a platform of no respect for the truth, dignity of others, etc. How is it possible to have a relationship with someone who is telling you that they have no respect?
Life is short. Get out now.
29
I had a mother who read my journal and also got fed (confidential) information from the shrinks she forced me to go to. She justified it as "mothering" even though she drew incorrect interpretations from what she read. The result? I had to leave her home a second time before I was eighteen because of the toxic environment, I developed a life-long distrust of shrinks, and -- most importantly -- I NEVER kept a journal again. This mother is wrong-headed beyond belief. To even consider such a thing Beyond the blatant violation of trust, why is she so confident that she will interpret and use that information wisely? She is a mother, not God. I don't care if the child is two years old -- that journal is not for her to read with permission.
55
Behave with integrity and kindness. If someone else -- even a spouse -- won’t behave in a likewise manner tell them you will not tolerate disrespect and name-calling. Shampoo, rinse, repeat.
55
Regarding the diatribing wife: tolerance for others and intolerance for others are not morally equal views. What she's doing is abuse in the name of "politics."
The same goes for state sponsored harassment: denial of basic public services, whether health care, loans, legal justice, decent pubic education, and so forth.
I'm tired, too, of taking the higher ground. It's time to speak up, and often. Bigotry and lying are just. plain. wrong.
My conservative friends are starting to hear that while I view them as my friends, I cannot respect them for morality of their views. I speak up about what it does to my family and friends who may lose basic rights or health care.
I don't even consider myself a liberal. I'm a centrist withthe same basic views of tolerance and responsibility, who has found myself increasing on the left side of the spectrum. Even Reagan supported Planned Parenthood.
The "frightened" husband should start by getting individual counseling, due to having an abusive spouse. He has some tough choices to make, but life is too short for living like that.
The same goes for state sponsored harassment: denial of basic public services, whether health care, loans, legal justice, decent pubic education, and so forth.
I'm tired, too, of taking the higher ground. It's time to speak up, and often. Bigotry and lying are just. plain. wrong.
My conservative friends are starting to hear that while I view them as my friends, I cannot respect them for morality of their views. I speak up about what it does to my family and friends who may lose basic rights or health care.
I don't even consider myself a liberal. I'm a centrist withthe same basic views of tolerance and responsibility, who has found myself increasing on the left side of the spectrum. Even Reagan supported Planned Parenthood.
The "frightened" husband should start by getting individual counseling, due to having an abusive spouse. He has some tough choices to make, but life is too short for living like that.
94
As to the first unfortunate person with a fanatical Trump supporter for a spouse, really the only ethical thing to do is divorce them. There is no reason to put up with that constant stress, and anyone who is still a fanatic about Trump at this point is not to be trusted.
Consider, she's supporting an ignorant fascist who has cheated on at least two of his wives. Trump also lies all the time, and attacks people constantly, as individuals, groups, nations and religions. He is a terrible person, there is no objective denial of that.
So if this guy's wife still supports that, then sorry, she is a terrible person too. I believe the guy should do himself a huge favor and start making moves to divorce her.
Consider, she's supporting an ignorant fascist who has cheated on at least two of his wives. Trump also lies all the time, and attacks people constantly, as individuals, groups, nations and religions. He is a terrible person, there is no objective denial of that.
So if this guy's wife still supports that, then sorry, she is a terrible person too. I believe the guy should do himself a huge favor and start making moves to divorce her.
18
Thank you for the advice not to read the diary. Reading it would be the essence of betrayal. Someone read my diary once, the act ruined my final refuge to discuss things with myself.
17
My mother read my diary when I was 15 and then told me. She wouldn't give me a reason. My diary didn't reveal any bad behavior or dark thoughts (I was a happy young girl with a busy social life and only mild angst and complaints, none about my mother), but I was still incensed that she'd read it.
So what I did was to write my diary entries in French, which I was studying in school at the time and which Mom didn't speak. The only scandal there was my truly atrocious French.
So what I did was to write my diary entries in French, which I was studying in school at the time and which Mom didn't speak. The only scandal there was my truly atrocious French.
29
Why, why, WHY would you read your child's diary?! All it will do is stop them from using a diary and keep them from trusting you with anything ever again.
How about just talking to your kid and developing a relationship.
How about just talking to your kid and developing a relationship.
36
LW1, I strongly suspect that your wife's anger, resentment, hostility, and vitriol, while common among Trumpsters, finds its genesis someplace other than political philosophy. Alas, I fear sir that her ill will is really about you and your relationship. As The Ethicist pointed out, there is a big difference between the Matalin/Carville stimulating debate and just plain nastiness. Life is short my friend, and there are many worse things than being alone. Get out of this toxic stew as quickly and cleanly as you can.
24
The liberal married to the Trump zealot might consider suggesting some couples counseling, given that his wife's behavior seems to have changed.
12
I couldn't imagine being married to a person with so little respect for people. Her problems are deeper than politics. Relationships rarely survive that type of change in personality.
The woman in the loving dating relationship needs to tell her father she absolutely won't surround herself with nasty relatives. Not worth the couples time. I never can understand people's strong hate fueled bigotry. What's it to them even if she married him. Not their business.
I hope the Mother doesn't snoop and read her daughters diary. She needs to let her work out her problems on her own. Buy some age appropriate books and restrain from trying to fix every bad feeling. Life has a way of working out.
The woman in the loving dating relationship needs to tell her father she absolutely won't surround herself with nasty relatives. Not worth the couples time. I never can understand people's strong hate fueled bigotry. What's it to them even if she married him. Not their business.
I hope the Mother doesn't snoop and read her daughters diary. She needs to let her work out her problems on her own. Buy some age appropriate books and restrain from trying to fix every bad feeling. Life has a way of working out.
4
Theresa,
Buy a journal and share it with your daughter. Write a paragraph or so of rules as an introductory regarding the fact that you have bought a journal to share your thoughts with one another.
I did this with my girls. Maybe you can start by writing something in it that you remember happening to you when you were 9 yrs old. Or just write something that you have recently shared. Place it on her pillow for her to to know it is her to write in when she is ready. And then she'll place it on your pillow so you will know that it is your turn to write in it.
When they became independent adults I gave them the journal to keep. Periodically they tell me they have re-read their journal. They treasure it. My only regret is that life got so busy that we didn't write as often as I wish we had.
Buy a journal and share it with your daughter. Write a paragraph or so of rules as an introductory regarding the fact that you have bought a journal to share your thoughts with one another.
I did this with my girls. Maybe you can start by writing something in it that you remember happening to you when you were 9 yrs old. Or just write something that you have recently shared. Place it on her pillow for her to to know it is her to write in when she is ready. And then she'll place it on your pillow so you will know that it is your turn to write in it.
When they became independent adults I gave them the journal to keep. Periodically they tell me they have re-read their journal. They treasure it. My only regret is that life got so busy that we didn't write as often as I wish we had.
14
I'm not sure I even fully understand the ehticist's first comment: "Marriage doesn't depend on agreement" since it is, perhaps conveniently, devoid of context. Because the correct question here is: agreement on what??
Should spouses, for a balanced and harmonious marriage, agree on, say, sports? Movie genres? Vacation spots? Very likely, no. Nobody says your lifelong partner must also be your kindred spirit or best friend in the grade school sense -- my own husband and I, for instance, are surely an example of "opposites attract". He's a hands-on, sportsy and pragmatic type of person while I'm more intellectually inclined, a bookworm and a dreamer.
But agreeing on life values? Yes, of course. How else would you build a life? How do you move forward? Educate your kids?
Jame Carville and Mary Matalin are not, to me, a healthy or worthwhile example of a true romantic partnership. Rather, they embody the kind of moral compromise and politics as business that has ultimately gotten us to where we are now. You could ostensibly build a life with someone on slightly differing life values, but certainly not at this level of black and white.
Otherwise, it is Sleeping with the Enemy.
And as reader DH points out, its high time that liberals wake up, smell the coffee and acknowledge the enemy in their midst. Fight fire with fire.
Should spouses, for a balanced and harmonious marriage, agree on, say, sports? Movie genres? Vacation spots? Very likely, no. Nobody says your lifelong partner must also be your kindred spirit or best friend in the grade school sense -- my own husband and I, for instance, are surely an example of "opposites attract". He's a hands-on, sportsy and pragmatic type of person while I'm more intellectually inclined, a bookworm and a dreamer.
But agreeing on life values? Yes, of course. How else would you build a life? How do you move forward? Educate your kids?
Jame Carville and Mary Matalin are not, to me, a healthy or worthwhile example of a true romantic partnership. Rather, they embody the kind of moral compromise and politics as business that has ultimately gotten us to where we are now. You could ostensibly build a life with someone on slightly differing life values, but certainly not at this level of black and white.
Otherwise, it is Sleeping with the Enemy.
And as reader DH points out, its high time that liberals wake up, smell the coffee and acknowledge the enemy in their midst. Fight fire with fire.
21
Carville & Matalin seem to share values to me. They seem to appreciate intellectual rigor, a love of politics, analysis and debate, passion about their country, and professional ambition. They may share more private values you can't see - perhaps kindness, altruism, dedication to family, faith, sexual chemistry. The partnership seems to work for them. If you've never seen them behave cruelly to each other, I don't know who you are to judge an enduring relationship as unhealthy because they disagree on how a government best serves its citizens. It's not as if one is racist or pro torture.
8
LW #1 didn't say how old his wife was when they got married but the fact that they've been married more than 30 years suggests they are at least in their 50s. Perhaps a medical checkup is in order for her? I am not saying this because she supports Trump, I am saying this because of the sudden change in her behavior.
LW#2 - is there more to the story? What's written here doesn't add up.
LW#2 - is there more to the story? What's written here doesn't add up.
14
Drop the diary. Now. The wound she will feel once she realizes you have no respect for her privacy will never heal. If you want to talk, talk. Going behind her back will shut the door to communication. Abusing boundaries sets up a lifelong pattern, so you have that to look forward to ruining her sense of self.
29
To the husband married to the Trump supporter: Sounds to me as if your wife's true self has been exposed. She probably won't change back to who she was before so why not just get out now while you still have some time left to have a relationship with someone who respects you.
To the girlfriend with the bigoted aunt and uncle: Tell them you won't associate with them unless they treat you and your boyfriend with the respect you both deserve. As for your father, please tell him to grow a backbone and tell his brother and sister-in-law that your boyfriend's legal status and your relationship with him is absolutely none of their business and that he will not discuss it with them. Period.
To the mother who is snooping and reading her child's diary: Stop reading her diary. Now. And don't read it again. Ever.
To the girlfriend with the bigoted aunt and uncle: Tell them you won't associate with them unless they treat you and your boyfriend with the respect you both deserve. As for your father, please tell him to grow a backbone and tell his brother and sister-in-law that your boyfriend's legal status and your relationship with him is absolutely none of their business and that he will not discuss it with them. Period.
To the mother who is snooping and reading her child's diary: Stop reading her diary. Now. And don't read it again. Ever.
12
What to do when family members disagree but you want them all to come to your holiday table? The advice that I receive is always, "Invite them all and let them sort it out." It could end up that the one you most want to see (your child) is the one who does not show; see him/her another time. At least you did not take sides.
I was the "victim" in one of these triangles years ago, but the roles were reversed. I was the aunt who made a comment that was misheard or misconstrued in a way that enraged my nephew, I was unaware of this issue, however, for several years, until his mother (my sister) told me that I was not invited to the family Xmas dinner at her house. (It was the one time every ten years that I made the long trip back home for the holiday.) When I learned the reason, I apologized by letter and invited my nephew to discuss it over coffee. He declared the vendetta over several years later. I think it would have been better for my sister to invite everyone and let my nephew choose not to attend.
I was the "victim" in one of these triangles years ago, but the roles were reversed. I was the aunt who made a comment that was misheard or misconstrued in a way that enraged my nephew, I was unaware of this issue, however, for several years, until his mother (my sister) told me that I was not invited to the family Xmas dinner at her house. (It was the one time every ten years that I made the long trip back home for the holiday.) When I learned the reason, I apologized by letter and invited my nephew to discuss it over coffee. He declared the vendetta over several years later. I think it would have been better for my sister to invite everyone and let my nephew choose not to attend.
1
If you only get together with your sister at Christmas every ten years, you aren't going to rank over her son in the family pecking order. The presence of her son quite reasonably is more important to her than yours.
On the other hand, if your nephew took "several years" to forgive you for a misunderstanding, he sounds like a difficult person.
My sympathy to your sister.
On the other hand, if your nephew took "several years" to forgive you for a misunderstanding, he sounds like a difficult person.
My sympathy to your sister.
3
Unless one has a legitimate concern for a child's life and limb safety, the only reason to read their diary is because one is a control freak.
14
I'm kind of amazed a person even needs to ask whether they should read their child's journal. Good grief.
20
If you don't respect each other, WHY are you still married?
8
For the nasty aunt/ uncle : good riddance. Your Dad may just need to say that you've become a workaholic, and he's so proud.
5
For Trumpish wife: Does she watch fox " news " 24/7 ??? That may be the primary problem. Refuse to participate. Leave the room, do not engage. She will eventually get the message . Had the same problem with my in -laws. No longer.
18
To Theresa: reading your daughter's diary is an awful breach and very disrespectful of her rights to privacy and human dignity. When a child learns their parent(s) can't be trusted, the relationship is severely damaged. This kind of betrayal could compromise future relationships in her life as well. Stop it.
11
"In that sense, your wife’s behavior poses an ethical challenge. Let her know."
This sentence could be applied more broadly than this poor man's marriage. Trump's entire administration is an ethical challenge and - yes - we should let him know.
This sentence could be applied more broadly than this poor man's marriage. Trump's entire administration is an ethical challenge and - yes - we should let him know.
9
You must articulate this liberal/trump issue to your wife directly. It's a problem. She is highly disrespectful to a group to which you belong. Your views should be respected - not necessarily agreed with - inside your own home, by your spouse. Period.
9
The group to which her husband belongs is irrationally hostile and disrespectful to anyone who voted for or supports Trump. The letter is made up to fit a narrative.
2
I hope they don't have kids or that they've grown. That union is doomed.
5
Don't read your kid's diary. It's calles snooping and it's wrong.
14
I feel bad for the husband in the first letter. I find the same intolerance among by very left wing friends and he does in his conservation wife. I am subject to the same contempt and quickness to censor, luckily I am not married to them. Also, unlike his wife I am not a Trump voter, in which they would kill me, but a centralist.
I am also not sure how the ethicist came to the conclusion that the relatives of this woman are anti-Arab. You don't think they would react the same if the boyfriend was Mexican? I know many people who have questioned whether someone is being exploited in order to get a green card in which the person being scrutinized is from the UK or Europe. Eastern Europeans especially are viewed in a negative light.
I am also not sure how the ethicist came to the conclusion that the relatives of this woman are anti-Arab. You don't think they would react the same if the boyfriend was Mexican? I know many people who have questioned whether someone is being exploited in order to get a green card in which the person being scrutinized is from the UK or Europe. Eastern Europeans especially are viewed in a negative light.
4
My mother read my diary when I was 18 years old (in 1975), & forced me to share a part of myself with my father that I was not ready to share. She neither wanted to keep it to herself nor to tell him. It was awful, & a seminal (& horrible) experience in my life. Your daughter is entitled to a private place to record her feelings.
30
The aunt is wrong to assume the worst about the boyfriend.
But let's leave his nationality out of it for a moment. It's not necessarily bigotry to be concerned that a non-citizen in a romantic relationship with a citizen might have an agenda of seeking citizenship. This happens all the time. (That the ethicist immediately jumps to the conclusion that the aunt is a bigot for worrying that this is the case suggests that the ethicist had his own axe to grind this week.) The fact that the relationship has exceeded a year without any pressure to marry suggests that citizenship is not a motivation here, and the aunt was out of line. The real question, however, is whether the aunt would be equally concerned about her niece's happiness if the boyfriend was, for example, Polish.
My concern would be the boyfriend's extremely conflicted relationship with his family and his cultural heritage. ("My boyfriend is estranged from his family after 15 years in the United States. He chooses not to communicate with them often to avoid discussing his atheism. But he still worries he is a disappointment to them, because of the pressure on him, as the oldest son, to be something he is not....") This is the real challenge to their future happiness if the relationship continues.
But let's leave his nationality out of it for a moment. It's not necessarily bigotry to be concerned that a non-citizen in a romantic relationship with a citizen might have an agenda of seeking citizenship. This happens all the time. (That the ethicist immediately jumps to the conclusion that the aunt is a bigot for worrying that this is the case suggests that the ethicist had his own axe to grind this week.) The fact that the relationship has exceeded a year without any pressure to marry suggests that citizenship is not a motivation here, and the aunt was out of line. The real question, however, is whether the aunt would be equally concerned about her niece's happiness if the boyfriend was, for example, Polish.
My concern would be the boyfriend's extremely conflicted relationship with his family and his cultural heritage. ("My boyfriend is estranged from his family after 15 years in the United States. He chooses not to communicate with them often to avoid discussing his atheism. But he still worries he is a disappointment to them, because of the pressure on him, as the oldest son, to be something he is not....") This is the real challenge to their future happiness if the relationship continues.
5
On the woman who says she's torn on whether to read her daughter's diary -
just don't do it. If you want to learn about someone's life, have a conversation. They might not tell you everything, but you'll be teaching them that you respect their boundaries.
When you crack open that diary, you're teaching her that privacy should be invaded because "you care," opening the door to both inflicting and being a victim to emotional abuse, that she can't trust her mother, and that there isn't a single safe place to explore her thoughts. For those thinking she won't find out? She will. Absolutely.
just don't do it. If you want to learn about someone's life, have a conversation. They might not tell you everything, but you'll be teaching them that you respect their boundaries.
When you crack open that diary, you're teaching her that privacy should be invaded because "you care," opening the door to both inflicting and being a victim to emotional abuse, that she can't trust her mother, and that there isn't a single safe place to explore her thoughts. For those thinking she won't find out? She will. Absolutely.
32
Learning to live with and love those on the opposite side of this growing political divide is absolutely worth navigating, for a couple or a country.
I think the husband would do well to calmly remind his wife that he is a liberal and a democrat and ask her, does she really hate him?
I think he could take a deep breath and calmly say, if not every venting episode, as often as he begins to feel his own reactivity and resistance rise, that her political rants feel like an attack on him, and it makes him feel uncomfortable and separate from her, and because he loves her, that's painful to him.
Beyond that, I think it is very helpful to see the fear that underlies the vitriol. It may be baseless, but it feels very real to whomever is trapped in it. I think it is helpful to ask, "what can I do in this moment to help you feel better?" and to not give up asking it, if the answer is only more ranting.
Creating a calmer, more peaceful relationship between two people can help one of them begin to move out of chronic fear.
I think the husband would do well to calmly remind his wife that he is a liberal and a democrat and ask her, does she really hate him?
I think he could take a deep breath and calmly say, if not every venting episode, as often as he begins to feel his own reactivity and resistance rise, that her political rants feel like an attack on him, and it makes him feel uncomfortable and separate from her, and because he loves her, that's painful to him.
Beyond that, I think it is very helpful to see the fear that underlies the vitriol. It may be baseless, but it feels very real to whomever is trapped in it. I think it is helpful to ask, "what can I do in this moment to help you feel better?" and to not give up asking it, if the answer is only more ranting.
Creating a calmer, more peaceful relationship between two people can help one of them begin to move out of chronic fear.
4
My wife also leans right, but she voted for Clinton because she could not stand a man like Trump.
It validated my choice 25 years ago that I married a righteous woman.
Not sure what I'd have done if she would have been okay with someone as awful as Trump...........
It validated my choice 25 years ago that I married a righteous woman.
Not sure what I'd have done if she would have been okay with someone as awful as Trump...........
16
Leave. No one should be forced to go through life chained to a bigot.
14
I found out my Dad had read my diary when I was 13. I felt violated. Like my thoughts were not my own. It made me feel like I could not have a private space in our home. Theresa, your daughter may be 9, but she's entitled to her own thoughts. You're not afraid that she's in trouble or someone is hurting her. The only thing she seems to be experiencing is normal life and you are reading her diary so that you can feel close to her. This is a closeness you will no longer have, and deservedly so, once she gets wise to you, and she will. If she's old enough to articulate her thoughts in a journal then she's old enough to be entitled to her own fears, her own concerns, her mental privacy. Reading her attempts to understand and articulate herself is a violation of her growing autonomy. And it is even more so, because she clearly trusts you. If she finds out, she will not trust you again. Stop it.
31
Leave the kid's diary alone.
14
Writer #1: your wife hates you and is telling you so regularly. You should take that seriously. Tell her that 30 years or no, if you're that repugnant to her, she should leave your home, rather than whining and carping at and abusing the person who's helped her make it.
Writer #2: Tell your dad to grow a spine and deal.
Writer #3: Seriously, what's wrong with you? Stop it!
Writer #2: Tell your dad to grow a spine and deal.
Writer #3: Seriously, what's wrong with you? Stop it!
11
LW 1 so what you're saying based on her position is that she now hates you too given your politics. Interesting. I wonder how she treats you in regard to other issues. Could a medical issue be contributing to this behavior? If not,I suggest you tell her how her behavior is making you feel and then take the best action for yourself based on her ensuing attitude and behavior.
6
Life is too short to spend the rest of it weary and frightened of your own spouse. These changes in behavior sound like ample grounds for divorce to me. Whether or not you choose that option, emotional abuse from a wife is still abuse and should be recognized as such.
8
"She has become an ardent, nearly fanatical Trump supporter, reacting to any criticism of him, no matter how benign, with vitriol."
I haven't actually heard any "benign" criticisms of Trump. For example, the graphic accompanying this piece arbitrarily depicts the angry wife as white and the poor suffering husband as someone of color. Already there's an implied "Trump supporters are racists." Maybe this is starting to drive the wife up the wall. It would be interesting to hear her side of the story.
I haven't actually heard any "benign" criticisms of Trump. For example, the graphic accompanying this piece arbitrarily depicts the angry wife as white and the poor suffering husband as someone of color. Already there's an implied "Trump supporters are racists." Maybe this is starting to drive the wife up the wall. It would be interesting to hear her side of the story.
4
When a Liberal is confronted by a Trump supporter, he/she is supposed to stand up for themselves and their "liberal" positions, no matter their personal relationship. Having to even raise the question is an ominous sign.
In dealing with Trump supporters its helpful to understand their vote for him was emotionally based, and not particularly rational. You can't speak to emotions with rationality, but you can't give away your self respect in the face of emotional tirades in support of Trump.
My neighbor gave way to such a tirade recently stating he was "a proud deplorable" in support of Trump. I found it most justifiable, and "ethical", if you will, to agree with his observation, and acknowledge that I did find his behavior in that regard to be most deplorable. For my effort, I happened to be rewarded by him and his wife with dinner the same evening.
Parent, sibling, child, spouse, friend, neighbor; everyone deserves the respect of being "heard". In turn, self respect mandates an honest response, especially , in my opinion, to protect a "liberal" position.l
In dealing with Trump supporters its helpful to understand their vote for him was emotionally based, and not particularly rational. You can't speak to emotions with rationality, but you can't give away your self respect in the face of emotional tirades in support of Trump.
My neighbor gave way to such a tirade recently stating he was "a proud deplorable" in support of Trump. I found it most justifiable, and "ethical", if you will, to agree with his observation, and acknowledge that I did find his behavior in that regard to be most deplorable. For my effort, I happened to be rewarded by him and his wife with dinner the same evening.
Parent, sibling, child, spouse, friend, neighbor; everyone deserves the respect of being "heard". In turn, self respect mandates an honest response, especially , in my opinion, to protect a "liberal" position.l
7
Zealot- She's become a bully, which comes as no great surprise. It's a bit like screaming nya nya nya! during a discussion. He's being blackmailed; to get a little peace, he has to be silent and angry at himself. If she is normally a rational person, he can present her with facts to read when he's not in the room. It is unlikely that they can watch the evening news together, and two TV's may not even be the answer. It is dangerous to one's health to spend time in an environment where your thoughts are truly hated. That level of contempt is very different from disagreement. He'll have to tell her that and stand up for his right to have differing opinions. Not every couple is Carville and Matalin, and being around either of them for an extended period sounds like the definition of stress.
Family- Dragging an atheist to a gathering of bigots makes no sense and reduces the boyfriend to an object. Some relatives are just nasty and stupid, and as an adult she can make the decision not to be around them. Dad's emotional blackmail is his problem, not hers,"she's making it rough on him." - No, actually he's making it rough on himself by lacking the character to stand up for the couple. He'll have to face his sister and respect his daughter's decision. There are plenty of other places one can go on a holiday where abuse is not on the menu. Family gatherings are greatly overrated.
Diary- are your communications so poor that you need to spy on her? Create trust by trusting.
Family- Dragging an atheist to a gathering of bigots makes no sense and reduces the boyfriend to an object. Some relatives are just nasty and stupid, and as an adult she can make the decision not to be around them. Dad's emotional blackmail is his problem, not hers,"she's making it rough on him." - No, actually he's making it rough on himself by lacking the character to stand up for the couple. He'll have to face his sister and respect his daughter's decision. There are plenty of other places one can go on a holiday where abuse is not on the menu. Family gatherings are greatly overrated.
Diary- are your communications so poor that you need to spy on her? Create trust by trusting.
17
The response to the first letter writer is a bit off. While the husband shouldn't remain silent while his wife rants about liberals, he shouldn't argue with her about it either.
Instead, he needs to explain to his wife how her behavior is impacting their relationship. He needs to gently remind her that he is a liberal, and then tell her how painful, hurtful, and distressing it is to have the woman he loves more than anyone in the world angrily declaring much how she "hates all liberals," because it implies that she hates him. While it won't turn her into a liberal, it should make her a bit more mindful of what she is actually saying.
I think, too, that it is worthwhile to find out what is underneath this vitriol. She hasn't always been like this; it's worth finding out what has happened in her life to make her move from a moderate conservative to an "ardent, fanatical Trump supporter." I would talk to her about that, not from a political perspective, but as someone who cares about her and wants to understand this dramatic change in outlook.
Instead, he needs to explain to his wife how her behavior is impacting their relationship. He needs to gently remind her that he is a liberal, and then tell her how painful, hurtful, and distressing it is to have the woman he loves more than anyone in the world angrily declaring much how she "hates all liberals," because it implies that she hates him. While it won't turn her into a liberal, it should make her a bit more mindful of what she is actually saying.
I think, too, that it is worthwhile to find out what is underneath this vitriol. She hasn't always been like this; it's worth finding out what has happened in her life to make her move from a moderate conservative to an "ardent, fanatical Trump supporter." I would talk to her about that, not from a political perspective, but as someone who cares about her and wants to understand this dramatic change in outlook.
87
Yes the vitriol. Maybe in a marriage that's a tough conversation with lots of potential to devolve into argument, but so be it. I say go at it. The country is at a crossroads. Every Trumpster needs to be asked for their list of 10 things they want to see changed and asked how that is accomplished and what the implications are and who gets hurt.
9
"Upon learning he was not an American citizen, they went on a long rant about how he was playing me, that he was just trying to get a green card from me through marriage. "
That statement is simply illogical. A green card does not make one a citizen; it makes one a permanent resident. Consider three tiers of status: (A) Citizen, (B) permanent resident, and (C) temporary/illegal. The statement makes the assumption that because he is not A, he must be C and is looking to use the relationship to become B. Maybe it was just a poor choice of words.
It is entirely possible that he already has a green card, given that he's been in the States for 15 years. I'm not sure of the specifics of his situation are, but he may be able to become a citizen on his own, without her presence.
It's also possible that he has not yet become a permanent resident and that he may indeed benefit immigrationally from the relationship. Only he knows all the details. She might know his status, but not necessarily his intentions. It wouldn't be the first, nor the last time someone was played in such a way.
That statement is simply illogical. A green card does not make one a citizen; it makes one a permanent resident. Consider three tiers of status: (A) Citizen, (B) permanent resident, and (C) temporary/illegal. The statement makes the assumption that because he is not A, he must be C and is looking to use the relationship to become B. Maybe it was just a poor choice of words.
It is entirely possible that he already has a green card, given that he's been in the States for 15 years. I'm not sure of the specifics of his situation are, but he may be able to become a citizen on his own, without her presence.
It's also possible that he has not yet become a permanent resident and that he may indeed benefit immigrationally from the relationship. Only he knows all the details. She might know his status, but not necessarily his intentions. It wouldn't be the first, nor the last time someone was played in such a way.
13
It's shocking how little people know about the distinction between all those terms. I was refused a loan from Bank of America because the (white, ignorant, American) teller didn't know the difference between a resident (green card) and a citizen (passport). Nevermind that both are eligible for a loan... She just threw her hands up and refused to work with me at all because the situation was "confusing" for her. Yeah, the bank... So I'm not surprised at all that some random layperson would be mixing up the terms as well. In this age of multinationalism and multiculturalism, and especially in the recent climate of hate and ignorance, people need to be educated on what exactly all those terms mean, so they don't make fools of themselves or make life even more difficult and frustrating for people of different statuses.
90
"...the (white, ignorant, American) teller..."
You had to take it there, didn't you?
But since this started with a discussion on various terms and continued with discussion on the lack of understanding of some terms, I feel obligated to call attention to your misuse of "teller". I'd be willing to bet the person to whom you're referring was a teller at the time of the interaction. Tellers are the people behind the counter, not those at desks.
You had to take it there, didn't you?
But since this started with a discussion on various terms and continued with discussion on the lack of understanding of some terms, I feel obligated to call attention to your misuse of "teller". I'd be willing to bet the person to whom you're referring was a teller at the time of the interaction. Tellers are the people behind the counter, not those at desks.
41
Why are you lumping temporary with illegal in your category (C)? There are plenty of valid temporary visas out there. People holding visas are not "illegal." You should have just said "other" if you didn't want to differentiate between legal and illegal.
13
I am so tired of liberals wussing out in cases like this, "taking the higher ground", "going high when they go low" and so on, and letting conservatives walk all over them. This is why we are where we are now. If conservatives fight dirty, then you can't let them and then complain. You have to fight back. Play their game if you must. Hold up your own side. Because if the tables were turned, as we have seen over and over again, they would absolutely NOT do the same for you and "give you a chance" and let you have your way. Being meek and permissive will get you nowhere - not in life, not in politics, and not in marriage either. Demand respect at the very least, and if your wife can't even give you that, then she is just not worth your trouble anymore - not as a wife and life companion, regardless of her views. I don't care if a lack of respect is "common" in marriage, as the ethicist says - respect is one of the main building blocks of the foundation of marriage, and without it, the whole thing falls apart.
316
I have left Trump supporters behind. The simple reason is that I feel their moral compass is wacked out and beyond reason. Distance is a given for self preservation. Lots of other fish in the sea..
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"Demand respect at the very least,..."
Going low is no way to demand respect. Two wrongs don't make a right, even if the first wrong is being done in a wrong way. Stooping to the other side's level (both side are guilty of "going low") simply makes both sides low and unworthy of anyone's respect.
Arguing back is not the same as "going low". Actually refuting/challenging the opposition's bogus or even valid point/opinions is something that should be done. Personally, I like playing "devil's advocate", partly because I notice the loads of BS in everyone's positions. I'm curious how your advice would differ if it were a right-leaner writing in about a left-leaning spouse.
Going low is no way to demand respect. Two wrongs don't make a right, even if the first wrong is being done in a wrong way. Stooping to the other side's level (both side are guilty of "going low") simply makes both sides low and unworthy of anyone's respect.
Arguing back is not the same as "going low". Actually refuting/challenging the opposition's bogus or even valid point/opinions is something that should be done. Personally, I like playing "devil's advocate", partly because I notice the loads of BS in everyone's positions. I'm curious how your advice would differ if it were a right-leaner writing in about a left-leaning spouse.
Agree! The "when-they-go-low, we-go-high" approach doesn't work! The best defense is a good offense -- without apologies. Research, attack with facts and sourcing and don't relent.
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I can see it now. Wife of Name Withheld files for divorce after Name Withheld, “for both of [their] sakes take[s] [his] side.” Husband’s defense: “The verdict must be for me because I was following the advice of the New York Times Ethicist.” Good luck with that one.
“It has been said a liberal is someone who won’t take his own side in an argument.” It has also been said, on freedom of speech, that a liberal is someone who believes in “freedom of speech for me, but not for thee”
“Ethics, in the end, is about living a good life.” I love that one. Translate: There is nothing under the sun that the Ethicist can not and will not make into an ethical question, especially for purposes of the Ethicist column in the New York Times Magazine.