You are entirely too predictable, Mr. Douthat. I knew this column was coming, and that you would seek to diminish what Horowitz and others have written. You pooh-pooh the relationship between Bannon and Burke with a flip "other fish to fry" comment. Give me a break! You're talking about a hard-core demagogue with a third-rate mind who wants a binding relationship with religious orthodoxy in his civilizational confrontation and huge war with Islam. You write that "theological issues dividing the church are quite distinct from the political issues dividing Western countries." Oh? White catholics went 60% for Trump. You write elsewhere that our fears of the erosion of the separation of church and state are overwrought and now write "The Bannon-Burke link consists of a friendly 2014 meeting, a few secondary connections and some broad commonalities between their respective worldviews — both in their way reactionary, nostalgic for the civilizational confidence of the Western or Catholic past." Apparently, you do know about this relationship. Would you like to tell us more about it? How do you know about it and, crucially, why do you know about it? Would you say that a ". . . nostalgic for the civilizational confidence of the Western or Catholic past" describes you? It appears that as you are saying there is no conspiracy you are being conspiratorial. You are being fundamentally dishonest in your assertions. You are not credible. You are an apologist for deceit.
13
"a shatterer of norms, a disregarder of traditions, an insult-heavy rhetorician", wow for a second a thought Ross was talking about Jesus. Greatest shatterer of noms there ever was. Sorry to hear that so many bishops are confused or unsure where to stand right now. Meanwhile, millions of Catholics love the Pope because he is the first one for years who seems to really get it, following Jesus, standing with the poor and the marginalized. Oh yes, that goes against "tradition".
Ross congratulations, you have finally achieved your life long dream. You are now officially "more Catholic than the Pope". Not more christian.
Ross congratulations, you have finally achieved your life long dream. You are now officially "more Catholic than the Pope". Not more christian.
33
Ideas from the fringes? Ha Ha Ha, sort of like that idea from the fringe that slavery is wrong, or that women should vote. Conservatism is a hoax perpetuated to control and manipulate. Just look at the people espousing its message, sheesh.
26
If you want to know who turns spiritually minded people into secularists, read about Michael Flynn who preaches Jesus but lies and read Mr. Douthat who will never follow his own line of thought back to the Grand Inquisitor for whom Jesus was a catalyst but must always be crucified over and over because he keeps with his radical idea of love.
And yes, of course Francis is forging a new backlash from the right, just as Jesus did. That doesn't make him wrong, any more than it made Jesus wrong when the Romans crucified him.
And yes, of course Francis is forging a new backlash from the right, just as Jesus did. That doesn't make him wrong, any more than it made Jesus wrong when the Romans crucified him.
26
It seems like Mr. Douthat is worried that the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) won't be a safe space for Reagan intellectuals. Pope Francis reignited many liberal Catholics in Europe and US who only maybe attended C&E masses (Christmas and Easter) and now attend mass almost semi-regularly. Francis also inspired the lion's share of Catholics living throughout the world whose ancestors didn't have intellectual exchanges within european latin quarters, circa 1200.
Steve Bannon and ilk's views on catholicism are almost those of Ross Douthat. The only difference is cultural upbringing. While Mr. Douthat's enthusiastic conversion is in the spirit of G.K. Chesterton - Mr. Bannon is just good old fashion bred in the bone white-ethnic parish catholicism. (Sorry, great grandma Bridget.) Note to self and for later reading, NYT reviewed this book:
"Catholic Converts: British and American Intellectuals Turn to Rome" - 1997
http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/a/allitt-converts.html
At the parish level in Chicago (best city in the world; said in Trump's voice), the most vibrant RC parishes are those bringing back educated liberals and those where the archdiocese changed the name of the church from an Irish, Italian or Polish saint to a Mexican one. The later group of RC churches are American Catholicism's future, both numerically and intellectually. Embrace the universality of big C Catholicism, Mr. Douthat.
Steve Bannon and ilk's views on catholicism are almost those of Ross Douthat. The only difference is cultural upbringing. While Mr. Douthat's enthusiastic conversion is in the spirit of G.K. Chesterton - Mr. Bannon is just good old fashion bred in the bone white-ethnic parish catholicism. (Sorry, great grandma Bridget.) Note to self and for later reading, NYT reviewed this book:
"Catholic Converts: British and American Intellectuals Turn to Rome" - 1997
http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/a/allitt-converts.html
At the parish level in Chicago (best city in the world; said in Trump's voice), the most vibrant RC parishes are those bringing back educated liberals and those where the archdiocese changed the name of the church from an Irish, Italian or Polish saint to a Mexican one. The later group of RC churches are American Catholicism's future, both numerically and intellectually. Embrace the universality of big C Catholicism, Mr. Douthat.
15
Douthat is having the dilettante Catholic convert's conniption fit. Thus he sees Burke as having no illiberal ambitions -- let's forget the laughable but vile efforts to bar mildly liberal Catholic politicians from communion. Pope Francis is radical and apocalyptic, flagrantly Trumpian, and an insult-heavy rhetorician. And John Paul II is a beautiful blend of traditional and modern, embracing Vatican II's reforms -- let's forget how he sought to destroy what Pope John XXIII started, and with his intrinsically disordered personality (in vitro fertilization is a mortal sin, like abortion) ruthlessly clamped down on liberal political stirrings in South America. Also hated the Jesuits (Francis is one) -- they think too much -- and banished Father Drinan from Congress.
This Douthat drivel is beyond nonsense. And if it went beyond idle talk and were applied to real life, it would be evil.
This Douthat drivel is beyond nonsense. And if it went beyond idle talk and were applied to real life, it would be evil.
35
Ross, why not just leave the church and go find a more suitable home in the traditionalist ghetto? I'm sure you would find suitable company there and the rest of us could get on with the hard work of following Christ.
35
Ross Douthat lives in a FAUX-"conservative" echo chamber wherein he thinks he is hearing the "sense of the faithful" from the likes of Damien Thompson, over at The Telegraph (http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/author/damian-thompson/), who is always reporting that the pontificate of Francis is "threatened" by a "Traditionalist" revolt. He and Thompson and other theological Neandrathols could not possible be more mistaken. Pope Francis is the DARLING of the world's poor, who make up the overwhelming majority of Catholics, and they are not going to foresake him for another lace-and-biretta-and-mozzeta-wearing pedophile-enabler, who condemns divorced folks whilst closing down investigations of child molesters.
36
Hogwash.
T rump was not elected because of populists he was elected because of propaganda. And 35 years of demonizing Hilary Clinton. And a Press that was asleep on the job.
My ancient, sainted Catholic priest uncle has told me he believes the Church will probably shrink back down to what it might have been before Constantine; a vessel to go good and share community instead of the mega-Church it has become. That would bring the institution closer to Christ.
Now we will see if mainstream Western fundamentalism will get back to its roots in Christ and leave Calvinism behind.
The modern fundamentalist Christian would no more recognize Jesus than a Taliban member would recognize Mohammed.
T rump was not elected because of populists he was elected because of propaganda. And 35 years of demonizing Hilary Clinton. And a Press that was asleep on the job.
My ancient, sainted Catholic priest uncle has told me he believes the Church will probably shrink back down to what it might have been before Constantine; a vessel to go good and share community instead of the mega-Church it has become. That would bring the institution closer to Christ.
Now we will see if mainstream Western fundamentalism will get back to its roots in Christ and leave Calvinism behind.
The modern fundamentalist Christian would no more recognize Jesus than a Taliban member would recognize Mohammed.
44
Wait! I thought the Pope is supposed to be infallible! I see the Pope's agenda as akin to our views of the Constitution over the decades. We once excluded minorities from Constitutional protections. Pope Francis is bringing minorities to the forefront -- his background in South America gives him a new perspective from the hidebound thinking of former church leaders. It's called enlightenment, you know the philosophical ideas that brought our country into being, even though it took quite a few years for us to apply the Constitution to all of our people. It's still a struggle.
28
One must remember that the Papacy is not a religious institution. The Roman Catholic Church governance is that of a monarchy, aided by an aristocracy (the Magisterium). Mr. Douthat's characterization of Pope Francis as Trump is the silly part. Francis is competent and well experienced. Mr. Trump is lost in the super market of life. Further the ultra conservative ownership of the Vatican since John XXIII is due for an overhaul.
52
Ross
Please name some names of these far-right conservative conspirators who would depose Francis.
Please name some names of these far-right conservative conspirators who would depose Francis.
25
The very fact of the 2014 meeting between Bannon and Burke at the Vatican, renders Burke as tainted by association. Bannon is an individual whose world views, by his own admission, have been formed by fascists - Julius Evola - whose writings influenced Mussolini.
See the recent article in Atlantic magazine - link below - whereby Bannon is influenced by the blogger, Curtis Yarvin, who blogs under the name of Mencius Moldbug, and represents a neo reactionary political theory for parts of the white nationalist movement - alt right - a political movement which adherents refer to as NRx.
At the core of that philosophy is a rejection of democracy and an embrace of autocratic rule.
Yarvin also subscribes to the theory of Scottish philosopher, Thomas Carlyle, who in defense of slavery, argued that some races are more suited to slavery than others.
That a Catholic Cardinal, within the Vatican would meet with such a person puts his legitimacy as a representative of the Catholic church in question.
As a Catholic, I believe that Mr. Douthat, does no favors to the church in assigning any moral equivalency to the conflicting views between Pope Francis and Burke, and those generally within the Vatican, and more cynically, and sinister any comparison between the Pope and Trump and his cadre of advisers.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/02/behind-the-internet...
See the recent article in Atlantic magazine - link below - whereby Bannon is influenced by the blogger, Curtis Yarvin, who blogs under the name of Mencius Moldbug, and represents a neo reactionary political theory for parts of the white nationalist movement - alt right - a political movement which adherents refer to as NRx.
At the core of that philosophy is a rejection of democracy and an embrace of autocratic rule.
Yarvin also subscribes to the theory of Scottish philosopher, Thomas Carlyle, who in defense of slavery, argued that some races are more suited to slavery than others.
That a Catholic Cardinal, within the Vatican would meet with such a person puts his legitimacy as a representative of the Catholic church in question.
As a Catholic, I believe that Mr. Douthat, does no favors to the church in assigning any moral equivalency to the conflicting views between Pope Francis and Burke, and those generally within the Vatican, and more cynically, and sinister any comparison between the Pope and Trump and his cadre of advisers.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/02/behind-the-internet...
23
You know what, sir? You can babble all you want about the Pope and conservatism and whatever. But, the Pope's main message, firm, sincere and wonderful to hear is this one: "Love thy neighbor". That was the Lord's main message above all others. He didn't give us a list, sir. He didn't promote discrimination and hate. He told us to love. No exceptions. The Catholic church has done nothing of the sort for years. Picking issues here or there, defying and ignoring the word's of Jesus. Peace and love. To all. I left the church decades ago. I am a Christian. A liberal one. And, I am overjoyed that for the first time, in DECADES, there is a man who is not afraid to say it. "Love thy neighbor". Try it out sometime, sir. Practice what the Lord asked us to do. Love. Don't judge. Love, sir.
45
Unable to support Trump anymore, Ross now attacks the pope. He's "radical" pope declares Ross. What's next for Ross, calling Washington and Lincoln radicals. Geez.
23
Mr. Douthat, sorry but this article is the proverbial apples and oranges, to a T! As most of your readers have commented, the Pope's intent in the face of human diversity and universal flaws is inclusiveness and tolerance within the Catholic Church whereas Trump's is that of divisiveness and hatred based on ethno-racial/religious factors. The Pope's intent is to move the rigid and sclerotic Medieval institution along with the changes of modern times whereas Trump's is retrogressive.
31
As the Pope chooses to be radical he looses Catholics along the way. While he becomes more radical he becomes less Catholic and ruins the foundation of the Catholic church.
The Pope appears before the United States Congress and professes climate change to be his new mantra while abortion, the killing of a baby with a heart beat, gets no mention. His politics are going to bring down his credibility.
Abortion remains an action of taking a life while climate change is based on questionable science. What a sham to have a man like this leading what used to be a respected church and religion.
Go Trump and let's save every unborn child we can and stop wasting money on miniscule climactic changes than can usurp our mutual economies.
The Pope appears before the United States Congress and professes climate change to be his new mantra while abortion, the killing of a baby with a heart beat, gets no mention. His politics are going to bring down his credibility.
Abortion remains an action of taking a life while climate change is based on questionable science. What a sham to have a man like this leading what used to be a respected church and religion.
Go Trump and let's save every unborn child we can and stop wasting money on miniscule climactic changes than can usurp our mutual economies.
Really, Ross? Pope Francis is "an insult-heavy rhetorician"? ("In the context of the papacy, in his style as a ruler of the church, Francis is flagrantly Trumpian: a shatterer of norms, a disregarder of traditions, an insult-heavy rhetorician, a pontiff impatient with the strictures of church law and inclined to govern by decree when existing rules and structures resist his will.")
After reading your column -- and then rereading to make certain I'd not misinterpreted it -- all I have to say is there's no zealotry to match in intensity and pomposity than the zealotry of a recent convert to any movement, whether it be the anti-cigarette zealotry of a reformed smoker or the zealotry of a brand-new Catholic head over heels in love with the Church's rituals and history.
After reading your column -- and then rereading to make certain I'd not misinterpreted it -- all I have to say is there's no zealotry to match in intensity and pomposity than the zealotry of a recent convert to any movement, whether it be the anti-cigarette zealotry of a reformed smoker or the zealotry of a brand-new Catholic head over heels in love with the Church's rituals and history.
24
Mr Douthat,
I understand that, as a conservative, you have a natural inclination for keeping things just the way they are. And for rules. The comfort of rules: following rules, imposing rules, especially imposing rules (although I'm not suggesting this is your bent). A lot of people convert to Catholicism because of its strict adherence to rules: the Thou Shalts and the Thou Shalt Nots. There's security in rules and conservatives are naturally attracted by security. There's certainty in rules, and the insecure (conservatives are by nature fearful) find a refuge in certainty. Which brings us to Francis. Jesuits have never followed the rules to the letter, which is why they have long been looked upon with suspicion by the Vatican. They are freer spirits, and generally more intelligent. Francis is not a radical, he's just much less conservative than you are. He wants to change what must be changed; you want things to remain the same because that's what attracted you to Catholicism in the first place. He's 80, with 80 years of experience. You're 37, bright, but without the wisdom and empirical knowledge of an 80-year-old Jesuit who manoeuvred through life and politics in Latin America. He's changing the rules and it makes you feel insecure, because the Catholic Church is no longer a bastion of immovability.
I understand that, as a conservative, you have a natural inclination for keeping things just the way they are. And for rules. The comfort of rules: following rules, imposing rules, especially imposing rules (although I'm not suggesting this is your bent). A lot of people convert to Catholicism because of its strict adherence to rules: the Thou Shalts and the Thou Shalt Nots. There's security in rules and conservatives are naturally attracted by security. There's certainty in rules, and the insecure (conservatives are by nature fearful) find a refuge in certainty. Which brings us to Francis. Jesuits have never followed the rules to the letter, which is why they have long been looked upon with suspicion by the Vatican. They are freer spirits, and generally more intelligent. Francis is not a radical, he's just much less conservative than you are. He wants to change what must be changed; you want things to remain the same because that's what attracted you to Catholicism in the first place. He's 80, with 80 years of experience. You're 37, bright, but without the wisdom and empirical knowledge of an 80-year-old Jesuit who manoeuvred through life and politics in Latin America. He's changing the rules and it makes you feel insecure, because the Catholic Church is no longer a bastion of immovability.
38
Douthat's premise, that institutional structure has the same relation to institutional purpose in both church and government, is itself a terminal assumption of religious conservatism.
Government consists of an ordering of process to balance competing material interests. Suasion is part of how it achieves consent, but suasion, in governance, is a means to other ends: to a buying into the system of mutual checks that promote rule-following for the purpose of order.
In church, process and structure are the byproducts, necessary to varying degrees, of maintaining a praxis whose sole purpose is suasion. Suasion is the end product in and of itself.
The questions one must properly ask in order to interrogate leaders of these two types of human assemblages are different in kind. Unlike in his more thoughtful columns on this topic, Douthat has asked neither of them here.
Government consists of an ordering of process to balance competing material interests. Suasion is part of how it achieves consent, but suasion, in governance, is a means to other ends: to a buying into the system of mutual checks that promote rule-following for the purpose of order.
In church, process and structure are the byproducts, necessary to varying degrees, of maintaining a praxis whose sole purpose is suasion. Suasion is the end product in and of itself.
The questions one must properly ask in order to interrogate leaders of these two types of human assemblages are different in kind. Unlike in his more thoughtful columns on this topic, Douthat has asked neither of them here.
1
"Today, the mainstream of conservative Catholicism is not reactionary and not remotely Trumpian."
Perhaps I wouldn't go as far as labeling the mainstream of conservative Catholicism "reactionary". There's definitely room of disagreement in most issues without having to resort to "reactionary" positions. But how can we describe the level of support Trump had among conservative Catholics in the last election if not "Trumpian"?
True, his loud pronouncements for any antiabortion position had a lot to do with it, but unfortunately a lot of his other ideas seem to resonate with that community.
Somehow I find it very hard to compare Trump's vitriolic statements with Francis's words while visiting our country just a couple of years ago: we are a nation of immigrants!
Pepe Sandoval
Ocean View, DE
Perhaps I wouldn't go as far as labeling the mainstream of conservative Catholicism "reactionary". There's definitely room of disagreement in most issues without having to resort to "reactionary" positions. But how can we describe the level of support Trump had among conservative Catholics in the last election if not "Trumpian"?
True, his loud pronouncements for any antiabortion position had a lot to do with it, but unfortunately a lot of his other ideas seem to resonate with that community.
Somehow I find it very hard to compare Trump's vitriolic statements with Francis's words while visiting our country just a couple of years ago: we are a nation of immigrants!
Pepe Sandoval
Ocean View, DE
7
Ross -- as someone who is ethnically Catholic (by which I mean I was born to Catholic parents, grew up in the church -- although I attended public school -- and chose to leave it as an adult because I felt it had strayed too far from the purpose of Christ and too close to the service of man), I find it amusing that someone who embraced it because he thought he'd found a church that was "man enough" for his conservative values at a crossroads as a pope who is truly catholic in his world view has shaken up the church hierarchy.
For millennia, the church has mistreated the women who were at its core (seriously Ross, the crux of the church's problems is that it has alienated too many women by trying to keep us trapped in traditional roles). It has forced people to choose between full participation in the church and having a fulfilling partnership if they are looking to end an unwise marriage or are not heterosexual. It sheltered pedophiles, tore babies away from their mothers and too often only grudgingly aided those in need, while building phenomenal wealth and surrounding its "princes" with luxury.
There are many men who are good priests and who truly care about the welfare of their congregations and the world at large. But too many do not. We can't go back, Ross. Perhaps someone who chose the faith can't see that. But those of us who left it can.
For millennia, the church has mistreated the women who were at its core (seriously Ross, the crux of the church's problems is that it has alienated too many women by trying to keep us trapped in traditional roles). It has forced people to choose between full participation in the church and having a fulfilling partnership if they are looking to end an unwise marriage or are not heterosexual. It sheltered pedophiles, tore babies away from their mothers and too often only grudgingly aided those in need, while building phenomenal wealth and surrounding its "princes" with luxury.
There are many men who are good priests and who truly care about the welfare of their congregations and the world at large. But too many do not. We can't go back, Ross. Perhaps someone who chose the faith can't see that. But those of us who left it can.
16
Jorge Mario Bergoglio (Pope Francis) is a Franciscan priest of the highest order, representing the values of a compassionate Jesus better than any Pope in modern history...a saint-like human who makes Republican hypocrites, Pharisees and prevaricators uncomfortable with the truth.
Stephen Bannon is Donald Trump's violent, hateful, ideological wrecking ball, a man whose bile-filled, venomous misanthropy once described progressive women as “a bunch of dykes”.
Here's Pope Francis:
"Time, my brothers and sisters, seems to be running out; we are not yet tearing one another apart, but we are tearing apart our common home. Today, the scientific community realizes what the poor have long told us: harm, perhaps irreversible harm, is being done to the ecosystem. The earth, entire peoples and individual persons are being brutally punished. And behind all this pain, death and destruction there is the stench of what Basil of Caesarea called “the dung of the devil”. An unfettered pursuit of money rules. The service of the common good is left behind. Once capital becomes an idol and guides people’s decisions, once greed for money presides over the entire socioeconomic system, it ruins society, it condemns and enslaves men and women, it destroys human fraternity, it sets people against one another and, as we clearly see, it even puts at risk our common home."
Pope Francis is real news.
Steve Bannon is fake news.
Steve Bannon has more in common with Attila the Hun than Saint Francis.
Stephen Bannon is Donald Trump's violent, hateful, ideological wrecking ball, a man whose bile-filled, venomous misanthropy once described progressive women as “a bunch of dykes”.
Here's Pope Francis:
"Time, my brothers and sisters, seems to be running out; we are not yet tearing one another apart, but we are tearing apart our common home. Today, the scientific community realizes what the poor have long told us: harm, perhaps irreversible harm, is being done to the ecosystem. The earth, entire peoples and individual persons are being brutally punished. And behind all this pain, death and destruction there is the stench of what Basil of Caesarea called “the dung of the devil”. An unfettered pursuit of money rules. The service of the common good is left behind. Once capital becomes an idol and guides people’s decisions, once greed for money presides over the entire socioeconomic system, it ruins society, it condemns and enslaves men and women, it destroys human fraternity, it sets people against one another and, as we clearly see, it even puts at risk our common home."
Pope Francis is real news.
Steve Bannon is fake news.
Steve Bannon has more in common with Attila the Hun than Saint Francis.
Both the establishment Republicans and Cardinal Burke are regressives. Burke and Trump are both authoritarians. Pope Francis seeks to rise above political categories and lead the Church with a Christ-like emphasis on service to the least of our sisters and brothers. He is authentically guided by the commandment to love God above all and to love your neighbor as yourself, with the reminder that your neighbors include the Samaritans--the New Testament metaphor for all of those who are so Other than the members of your own tribe. This commandment is far from being a rule of conduct central to the laissez faire capitalism that so many "Christians" view as the central doctrine of their right-wing fundamentalist "faith-ideology."
Laissez faire capitalism is little more than the justification of greed. Its God is Mammon.
Laissez faire capitalism is little more than the justification of greed. Its God is Mammon.
22
Ross, you are a little hard to follow today but while you wish to call Francis a revolutionary I would like to point out that his ministry is largely formed by Vatican II.
Steve Bannon, while friendly to some conservative Bishops and Cardinals is not formed by Vatican II but derives his philosophy and orientations from a strange and dark place. One must wonder why Cardinal Burke, et al would find much of redeeming value in Bannon's thoughts compared to the Gospel.
Steve Bannon, while friendly to some conservative Bishops and Cardinals is not formed by Vatican II but derives his philosophy and orientations from a strange and dark place. One must wonder why Cardinal Burke, et al would find much of redeeming value in Bannon's thoughts compared to the Gospel.
11
Ross come on seriously? You're comparing the Pope Francis to that thing that is in the White House? You have a man who is bringing the true message of Jesus back to the Chirch. Love of the poor and your fellow man. Jesus WAS a Socialist. The thing is just out for himself. In his eyes Jesus is a looser.
I am not heartened by you telling me that the Bannon/Burke connection will have no concenquence. You repeatedly reasured us the Trump could not win using similar logic and you were dead wrong so I will continue to pray for Francis and hope he has a loyal food taster...
I am not heartened by you telling me that the Bannon/Burke connection will have no concenquence. You repeatedly reasured us the Trump could not win using similar logic and you were dead wrong so I will continue to pray for Francis and hope he has a loyal food taster...
19
Wow Ross. Just wow. That article about Bannon and his activities at the Vatican really struck a nerve, huh? Sent you spinning into paroxysms of utter baloney? Are you seriously, seriously, comparing Pope Francis to Trump, believing that some act of mental gymnastics would make it so?
Ah, I can see you harken back to the good old days of the Vatican providing cover and shelter for sexual predators. Yes, those conservative times when at least you could be sure that a divorced person could never take communion.
My son is being confirmed this year. And I am proud of Pope Francis for bringing Christ back into Christianity. Like Christ, the pope believes in caring for the poor, the sick, the refugee seeking shelter. He is a pope whose first concern is social justice. Too bad that doesn't jibe with your ideas about tax cuts for the worthy rich. Or is it his encyclical on the environment that so sticks in your craw? How dare he care about God's creation. Or maybe you hate that he preaches radical forgiveness, again modeling himself on Christ.
Mostly I'm guessing you're just really annoyed that those pesky New Testament values can be used to support a political worldview entirely opposite your own. Too bad, because the pope is a role model with real relevance for a young person like my son. The libertine, compulsive lying billionaire that seeks to increase income disparity, reject battered refugees and enrich himself, not so much.
Ah, I can see you harken back to the good old days of the Vatican providing cover and shelter for sexual predators. Yes, those conservative times when at least you could be sure that a divorced person could never take communion.
My son is being confirmed this year. And I am proud of Pope Francis for bringing Christ back into Christianity. Like Christ, the pope believes in caring for the poor, the sick, the refugee seeking shelter. He is a pope whose first concern is social justice. Too bad that doesn't jibe with your ideas about tax cuts for the worthy rich. Or is it his encyclical on the environment that so sticks in your craw? How dare he care about God's creation. Or maybe you hate that he preaches radical forgiveness, again modeling himself on Christ.
Mostly I'm guessing you're just really annoyed that those pesky New Testament values can be used to support a political worldview entirely opposite your own. Too bad, because the pope is a role model with real relevance for a young person like my son. The libertine, compulsive lying billionaire that seeks to increase income disparity, reject battered refugees and enrich himself, not so much.
25
There was a segment Monday on EWTN's Nightly News Program with Edward Pentin, a highly respected Catholic reporter, about the Steve Bannon/Cardinal Raymond Burke "meeting." They talked in passing but there was nothing more to the story. I trust this report highly and not some relatively unknown NYT reporter.
Also it mentioned that there were posters displayed by Pope Francis detractors who are conservative that were very unflattering. Not everyone agrees with this pope's liberal agenda and are voicing their dissent. He is the one who is causing confusion within the Catholic Church with his unclear messages. I am a practicing Catholic but do not always agree with Pope Francis. I think he is a good man but is misinformed on some of the issues. i think he needs to slow down a bit. He is moving a bit too fast for some of us.
Also it mentioned that there were posters displayed by Pope Francis detractors who are conservative that were very unflattering. Not everyone agrees with this pope's liberal agenda and are voicing their dissent. He is the one who is causing confusion within the Catholic Church with his unclear messages. I am a practicing Catholic but do not always agree with Pope Francis. I think he is a good man but is misinformed on some of the issues. i think he needs to slow down a bit. He is moving a bit too fast for some of us.
1
Where this article fails is the fact that Francis, by and large, is the most popular Pope worldwide we have seen in ages. This is speaking strictly of the "lay people." Trump on the other hand is turning into the most unpopular using the same criteria.
You could argue that the political elite, the right in the church and the left in Western politics, are experiencing a similar upheaval. But when it comes to the people on the ground, Catholics in Brazil and Ireland, and constituents in California and London, the difference could not be more striking.
You could argue that the political elite, the right in the church and the left in Western politics, are experiencing a similar upheaval. But when it comes to the people on the ground, Catholics in Brazil and Ireland, and constituents in California and London, the difference could not be more striking.
6
This reminds me of a college thesis - a convoluted paper composed when the writer has nothing to say but must say something because it's required that he do so.
I've waded through a thesis or two. Academic writing is often dry and convoluted. Big words and long sentences are a shiny veneer over dull thinking. The truth, however, can usually be stated plainly.
Here's the truth. Francis is trying to steer the church through centuries of commentary, back to following the teachings of Christ. Christ said to love one and take care of one another. He said that there is a loving and infinitely forgiving presence at the heart of the universe and that we can find that love within ourselves. Finding that love is the work of a lifetime and would change the world if we all sought after it.
Pretty much everything else said about him was made up by the Church.
Francis is a good guy.
Trump isn't.
I've waded through a thesis or two. Academic writing is often dry and convoluted. Big words and long sentences are a shiny veneer over dull thinking. The truth, however, can usually be stated plainly.
Here's the truth. Francis is trying to steer the church through centuries of commentary, back to following the teachings of Christ. Christ said to love one and take care of one another. He said that there is a loving and infinitely forgiving presence at the heart of the universe and that we can find that love within ourselves. Finding that love is the work of a lifetime and would change the world if we all sought after it.
Pretty much everything else said about him was made up by the Church.
Francis is a good guy.
Trump isn't.
28
This is frankly wrong. The Bannon world view is apocalyptic in the extreme. This is made clear by the unimaginable appointment of an art historian, Victoria Coates, to the National Security Council. Ms Coates is providing a clue to the dangerous ideology inside the Bannon camp: that the world needs a catastrophic event to bring about a "return" to a ordered western political system. She organized a exposition trumpeting just this ideology at the Cleveland Museum called "The Last Days of Pompeii: Decadence, Apocalypse, Resurrection.”
That thematic art of Decadence, Apocalypse, Resurrection defines the Bannon ideology and is NOT shared by Pope Frances on the moderate left. He is making the Catholic Church over in an image of contingent adaptation to history. Bannon is threatening a fascist reordering to an imagined ideal past via a huge conflagration.
Bannon and Coates envision this corrective apocalypse as necessary and expedient. That is an extremist's view and puts them in line with hard-right Catholics and extremists across the religious spectrum.
Douthat is wrong to paint the energetic pragmatic moves of Francis as extremist, especially in contrast to the Bannon Doctrine of "Burn It All Down." Who is closer the tools of apocalypse, Bannon or Pope Francis? Which man presents a more tangible threat to humanity and the planet? The answer is clear.
That thematic art of Decadence, Apocalypse, Resurrection defines the Bannon ideology and is NOT shared by Pope Frances on the moderate left. He is making the Catholic Church over in an image of contingent adaptation to history. Bannon is threatening a fascist reordering to an imagined ideal past via a huge conflagration.
Bannon and Coates envision this corrective apocalypse as necessary and expedient. That is an extremist's view and puts them in line with hard-right Catholics and extremists across the religious spectrum.
Douthat is wrong to paint the energetic pragmatic moves of Francis as extremist, especially in contrast to the Bannon Doctrine of "Burn It All Down." Who is closer the tools of apocalypse, Bannon or Pope Francis? Which man presents a more tangible threat to humanity and the planet? The answer is clear.
105
"Today, the mainstream of conservative Catholicism is not reactionary and not remotely Trumpian." This is a claim that doesn't reflect what is happening in countries with large Catholic communities, from Germany to Poland. In one interview last summer, Francis stated: “In Europe, America, Latin America, Africa, and in some countries of Asia, there are genuine forms of ideological colonization taking place. And one of these - I will call it clearly by its name - is [the ideology of] ‘gender.’ Today children - children! - are taught in school that everyone can choose his or her sex...Why are they teaching this? Because the books are provided by the persons and institutions that give you money. These forms of ideological colonization are also supported by influential countries. And this [is] terrible!”
In other words, if you really listen to what the Pope, together with many Catholic organizations and publications endorsed by the Church, are saying all over the world, feminism is a form of ideological colonization by nasty women and their fellow travelers from the West. If that is not a form of reactionary conservatism that sounds a LOT like Trump's backers (Bannon comes to mind), I don't know what you would qualify that position.
In other words, if you really listen to what the Pope, together with many Catholic organizations and publications endorsed by the Church, are saying all over the world, feminism is a form of ideological colonization by nasty women and their fellow travelers from the West. If that is not a form of reactionary conservatism that sounds a LOT like Trump's backers (Bannon comes to mind), I don't know what you would qualify that position.
2
Recall Luke 18: "To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. . . . “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
Recall Luke: 16-31: (Pharisees and Lazarus) When the poor man died, he was carried away by angels to the bosom of Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried . . where he was in torment,
Recall Matthew 25; ""When the Son of Man comes . . and all the nations will separate them one from another, as a shepherd. Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
For I was hungry and you gave me food, . . . Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food.
Who reflects Christ: Francis or Burke?
“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
Recall Luke: 16-31: (Pharisees and Lazarus) When the poor man died, he was carried away by angels to the bosom of Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried . . where he was in torment,
Recall Matthew 25; ""When the Son of Man comes . . and all the nations will separate them one from another, as a shepherd. Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
For I was hungry and you gave me food, . . . Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food.
Who reflects Christ: Francis or Burke?
14
Many Catholics are Trumpian, having voted for him in the majority, and support his racist attitudes towards immigrants as well as his desire to dismantle Planned Parenthood and it women services, cancers screenings etc.
To say young Catholics are skeptical of Vatican II reforms is laughable. Most young Catholics opt out as soon as they leave home because the Church's conservative wing is still sex obsessed and more ossified than ever.
Francis is more in step with the realities of worldwide poverty, environmental degradation and human exploitation than Trump, Bannon, the Republican's and their billionaire cabinet members.
What Burke represents is not a traditional "critique" or objection under Roberts rule of order. It is representative of hard reactionary authoritarianism, right down to these men in their resplendent purple robes with 20 foot trains and fur collars (as Burke is fond of traipsing around in) telling parishioners how to vote (based on abortion laws) and threatening eternal damnation.
To say young Catholics are skeptical of Vatican II reforms is laughable. Most young Catholics opt out as soon as they leave home because the Church's conservative wing is still sex obsessed and more ossified than ever.
Francis is more in step with the realities of worldwide poverty, environmental degradation and human exploitation than Trump, Bannon, the Republican's and their billionaire cabinet members.
What Burke represents is not a traditional "critique" or objection under Roberts rule of order. It is representative of hard reactionary authoritarianism, right down to these men in their resplendent purple robes with 20 foot trains and fur collars (as Burke is fond of traipsing around in) telling parishioners how to vote (based on abortion laws) and threatening eternal damnation.
10
Why is it no surprise that Republican like Douthat would fall back into standard GOPism and try to frame Pope Francis with the same nonsense that they tried on Barack Obama?
I'm not Catholic, Christian or even much of a believer, yet this is the most exciting Pope in centuries. He's building on the foundation laid down by John XXIII, John Paul I and John Paul II to move the RCC from the staid elitist farce it has been to actually following the principles and ethics laid down in their scriptures, the words and ideas ascribed to Jesus.
Is it any wonder that so-called "Christians" who believe that wealth and power are signs of God's favor are enraged and terrified by a Pope who actually BELIEVES Jesus' words about a camel and a needle's eye? That he actually BELIEVES that the poor are people, too and deserve better?
There may be much I disagree with Pope Francis about, but I don't doubt for a second that he is unselfish, honest and sane. Unlike Trump. He is far better organized than Trump despite fighting an internal rebellion by the same elements in the RCC that in the past brought about the Crusades, the Inquisition, and book-burning. Trump can't even control his own White House!
Here's the BIG difference. I see Pope Francis as a force for Good in the world, and Trump as a force for Evil.
I'm not Catholic, Christian or even much of a believer, yet this is the most exciting Pope in centuries. He's building on the foundation laid down by John XXIII, John Paul I and John Paul II to move the RCC from the staid elitist farce it has been to actually following the principles and ethics laid down in their scriptures, the words and ideas ascribed to Jesus.
Is it any wonder that so-called "Christians" who believe that wealth and power are signs of God's favor are enraged and terrified by a Pope who actually BELIEVES Jesus' words about a camel and a needle's eye? That he actually BELIEVES that the poor are people, too and deserve better?
There may be much I disagree with Pope Francis about, but I don't doubt for a second that he is unselfish, honest and sane. Unlike Trump. He is far better organized than Trump despite fighting an internal rebellion by the same elements in the RCC that in the past brought about the Crusades, the Inquisition, and book-burning. Trump can't even control his own White House!
Here's the BIG difference. I see Pope Francis as a force for Good in the world, and Trump as a force for Evil.
Pope Francis is a radical Pope???
I would say the Catholic extreme right world view where women are second class citizens and corporations are fist class citizens is more aptly called radical.
I would say the Catholic extreme right world view where women are second class citizens and corporations are fist class citizens is more aptly called radical.
8
Oh come on, Ross. Are you beginning to realize that the Catholic Church that you joined is not really what you thought it was: a closed and rigid dogmatic system that makes us all sure that we're going to heaven. Rather the Catholic Church might be an daring, ever changing and dynamic, journey of the daughters and sons of God.
Francis is the prophet of our age. Your putting him up against Trump says more about your confusion than you can see. I hope you get some help.
Francis is the prophet of our age. Your putting him up against Trump says more about your confusion than you can see. I hope you get some help.
13
"Just as Trumpism is forging tomorrow’s political left, in other words, Francis is forging tomorrow’s Catholic right — theologically and perhaps politically as well."
This seems to be the nature of things, you need someone who gets your goat to start organizing yourself an fighting for what you believe in. When things are going your way for too long, there is nothing to fight for , so you don't.
Catholics, American Presidents, etc.. these are somewhat radical times - as all economic realignments are -- and we need radical people for which we forge our steel against and for. Used to be European wars and now it is politics. People need an adversary in order to stay sharp.
This seems to be the nature of things, you need someone who gets your goat to start organizing yourself an fighting for what you believe in. When things are going your way for too long, there is nothing to fight for , so you don't.
Catholics, American Presidents, etc.. these are somewhat radical times - as all economic realignments are -- and we need radical people for which we forge our steel against and for. Used to be European wars and now it is politics. People need an adversary in order to stay sharp.
While we can't look into his mind, he shows every sign of being profoundly sincere in his values and of irreproachable character. He has strived towards a holy, perhaps apostolic model of living. To fail to acknowledge this while equating him to Trump, a man who has publicly committed every deadly sin, is grossly irresponsible, foolish, and offensive. Whatever their approaches to leadership the personalities are diametrically opposed.
On his radicalism, I must argue that other radicals include Christ, the apostles, and Francis' pontifical namesake, that saint from Assisi. This is not to say that it makes the Pope right or a saint, so much as to say that he can reasonably see strong precedents in the Christian tradition for his actions. This runs counter to a Bannonesque burn it all down approach.
Finally, to directly equate striving towards spiritual truth with secular politicking is absurd sophism. It baffles me that a Catholic intellectual would not understand this, and so I can only chalk it up to a man trying to knowingly use tenuous arguments to unite a specious thesis and meet a deadline.
On his radicalism, I must argue that other radicals include Christ, the apostles, and Francis' pontifical namesake, that saint from Assisi. This is not to say that it makes the Pope right or a saint, so much as to say that he can reasonably see strong precedents in the Christian tradition for his actions. This runs counter to a Bannonesque burn it all down approach.
Finally, to directly equate striving towards spiritual truth with secular politicking is absurd sophism. It baffles me that a Catholic intellectual would not understand this, and so I can only chalk it up to a man trying to knowingly use tenuous arguments to unite a specious thesis and meet a deadline.
2
While I generally enjoy Mr. Douthat's essays, this treatment is a bit tortured. First of all, the ossification of the Vatican bureaucracy has been acknowledged by commentators across the spectrum for many decades. Frustration with it played a large part in the unprecedented resignation of Benedict XVI, a conservative dogmatist far more congenial to Mr. Douthat's liking.
Also amusing is that conservatives who long have told wayward liberalized that the church is no democracy and they'd better listen up to the pronouncements from the Chair of Peter are the very ones who now decry what they see as top-down authoritarianism.
Also amusing is that conservatives who long have told wayward liberalized that the church is no democracy and they'd better listen up to the pronouncements from the Chair of Peter are the very ones who now decry what they see as top-down authoritarianism.
2
As humanity progresses, there will always be people like Cardinal Burke and Steve Bannon (and Ross Douthat), people who yearn for the good old days. The days when they had all the power and the cultural norms favored them. The days when the were able to hold down those people who were not like them the Other.
People like that will always fail. Humanity moves forward, slowly and in a 'two steps forward, one step back' kind of way. But always forward. The Burkes and Bannons will fuss and fight but in the long run they will lose out. They always do because they represent stagnation and nature favors growth.
People like that will always fail. Humanity moves forward, slowly and in a 'two steps forward, one step back' kind of way. But always forward. The Burkes and Bannons will fuss and fight but in the long run they will lose out. They always do because they represent stagnation and nature favors growth.
1
These analogies and comparisons obscure rather than illuminate.
What are the troubling problems facing the Roman Catholic Church today? The clergy sex-abuse epidemic, the decline in the number of young men entering the priesthood, the role of women in the Church and in the clergy, the world-wide increase in inequality, and the overall decline in faith.
Unlike Pope John Paul II, Pope Francis has addressed some of these issues with energy and vigor, particularly the child sex-abuse epidemic which could destroy the institutional Church.
An Institution as large, complex, and old as the Church must adapt, if slowly, to new ideas and challenges. Like his predecessor, Pope John XXIII, Pope Francis is guiding this evolution with skill and mastery.
What are the troubling problems facing the Roman Catholic Church today? The clergy sex-abuse epidemic, the decline in the number of young men entering the priesthood, the role of women in the Church and in the clergy, the world-wide increase in inequality, and the overall decline in faith.
Unlike Pope John Paul II, Pope Francis has addressed some of these issues with energy and vigor, particularly the child sex-abuse epidemic which could destroy the institutional Church.
An Institution as large, complex, and old as the Church must adapt, if slowly, to new ideas and challenges. Like his predecessor, Pope John XXIII, Pope Francis is guiding this evolution with skill and mastery.
5
The correct term is "orthodox" Catholic, not "conservative" or "traditionalist." The American "orthodox" Catholics view themselves as religious, and eschew political terms. They are orthodox, "real" Catholics, and anyone not in this group is political and either socialist/liberal which is "secular," by their definition, or a "cafeteria" Catholic. These American Catholics are where the Catholic money is, and where the power lies. The more "left" or liberal side spent its savings on the Obamacare petition in the NYT back in '09-'10 when the then-pope could, and did, repress orders of nuns signing that petition, many of whom are still under sanction.
Orthodox Catholics are highly organized, wealthy, and voted for Trump as a bloc. If you read the comments to articles like the American Catholic and The Catholic Register, you can hear this bloc in droves. Their view is that Francis is a "leftist-socialist" and they would like nothing more than to see him curbed or replaced. They carefully follow Burke's demotions in Rome of late. Trump is well aware of this group and his flip flop stance on abortion is to directly court Orthodox Catholic support, and it works. The major orders of Knights merely need pull a string, and "liberals" just don't have that pull. If you don't believe that, I can list a few orders of liberal nuns for you currently under full house observation by Rome.
Orthodox Catholics are highly organized, wealthy, and voted for Trump as a bloc. If you read the comments to articles like the American Catholic and The Catholic Register, you can hear this bloc in droves. Their view is that Francis is a "leftist-socialist" and they would like nothing more than to see him curbed or replaced. They carefully follow Burke's demotions in Rome of late. Trump is well aware of this group and his flip flop stance on abortion is to directly court Orthodox Catholic support, and it works. The major orders of Knights merely need pull a string, and "liberals" just don't have that pull. If you don't believe that, I can list a few orders of liberal nuns for you currently under full house observation by Rome.
6
When my Aunt died, they gave me her Pope Francis medal. I'm not much of a Catholic but this touched me as a person to look up to, a hero, I don't have to worry about wife beating, tax evasion, or doping charges. When I heard about Bannon's alliances with Vatican hardliners, I was pleased to wear the medal as a liberal political statement because--It is.
You can try to plaster over kindness and compassion with accusations of mere populism, and you can try to make those who recognize the pattern of gop hardliners going after anyone they don't like that gets turned into a political media stunt then a platform plank as people who've read too much Di Vinci Code style spy novels. You can try.
But we've been watching you for a few decades now. We know how you operate, smear good intentions, scuttle the truth so much the truth becomes difficult to find even on the news, manipulate laws to make sure the little guy and the nice guys who care about everybody are thrown under the bus.
I'm telling you now in no uncertain terms: Leave the Pope Alone. This time you will finally open a can of worms hardliners will regret, forever.
You can try to plaster over kindness and compassion with accusations of mere populism, and you can try to make those who recognize the pattern of gop hardliners going after anyone they don't like that gets turned into a political media stunt then a platform plank as people who've read too much Di Vinci Code style spy novels. You can try.
But we've been watching you for a few decades now. We know how you operate, smear good intentions, scuttle the truth so much the truth becomes difficult to find even on the news, manipulate laws to make sure the little guy and the nice guys who care about everybody are thrown under the bus.
I'm telling you now in no uncertain terms: Leave the Pope Alone. This time you will finally open a can of worms hardliners will regret, forever.
5
If one wants to look at a connection in spirit between Bannon, (American) Roman Catholicism and Cardinal Burke, then one look at one of the most important Catholic media outlets would suffice. Relevant Radio hosts a daily show -the Drew Mariana show- at which the host floated the idea of banning Muslim immigration from Syria and Iraq whilst favouring the immigration of Christian refugees repeatedly well before the Trump campaign/administration did - as early as in late 2015/early 2016. This media outlet is also hosting a variety of other people who support Cardinal Burke and his movement, the Holy League.
Cardinal Burke -not unlike President Trump- promotes an apocalyptic view of the world, full of evil, corruption and decay, with them being a saviour. Pope Francis sees the problems of the world and offers solutions yet remains optimistic. Is he a populist? Maybe in so far as he sees the problems and offers solutions. Jesus welcomed and forgave sinners, urging them not to sin anymore. Pope Francis promotes action and inclusion, Cardinal Burke promotes exclusion.
Cardinal Burke -not unlike President Trump- promotes an apocalyptic view of the world, full of evil, corruption and decay, with them being a saviour. Pope Francis sees the problems of the world and offers solutions yet remains optimistic. Is he a populist? Maybe in so far as he sees the problems and offers solutions. Jesus welcomed and forgave sinners, urging them not to sin anymore. Pope Francis promotes action and inclusion, Cardinal Burke promotes exclusion.
Ross, you are really stretching a theory that is implausible from the start.
If you want to understand Pope Francis spend a few weeks in Buenos Aires, Argentina from whence he came.
Listen to the demonstrators who still gather in Plaza de Mayo to mourn their missing children and other family members, who were dropped from airplanes over the open sea by a military controlled by authoritarian rule.
Look and listen to the adoration that remains among the people for Eva Peron, because she showed compassion. Monuments to her memory can be found throughout the country, including the southern most tip of South America, in Ushuaia.
The Catholic Church is a male dominated atherosclerotic institution. Cardinal Burke is a major life threatening plaque. Pope Francis is a stent.
If you want to understand Pope Francis spend a few weeks in Buenos Aires, Argentina from whence he came.
Listen to the demonstrators who still gather in Plaza de Mayo to mourn their missing children and other family members, who were dropped from airplanes over the open sea by a military controlled by authoritarian rule.
Look and listen to the adoration that remains among the people for Eva Peron, because she showed compassion. Monuments to her memory can be found throughout the country, including the southern most tip of South America, in Ushuaia.
The Catholic Church is a male dominated atherosclerotic institution. Cardinal Burke is a major life threatening plaque. Pope Francis is a stent.
2
The difference between the Pope and Trump, in terms Douthat would understand, is that The Pope is good and the other is evil.
No need for intellectual theoligizing.
No need for intellectual theoligizing.
9
So Mr Douthat continues to believe he is more Catholic than the Pope, and indeed seems to think he should actually be the Pope.
To much of the world, including many many Catholics, Francis is mostly trying to restore the teachings of Jesus to Christianity, where they have been increasingly ignored and often, as in the US, replaced by an ugly political radicalism that seeks to oppress most people, especially women, and further enrich the already wealthy.
There is a reason, sir, that so many people regard 'Christian' as a very negative term. Sadly, many of those proclaim it the loudest are the least Christ-like and seem most oblivious to his teachings.
Francis, to this admittedly non-Catholic, seems to try to want to fix that.
I'm puzzled as to why you think that's a bad thing.
Or aren't the teachings of Jesus supposed to be the point of Christianity?
To much of the world, including many many Catholics, Francis is mostly trying to restore the teachings of Jesus to Christianity, where they have been increasingly ignored and often, as in the US, replaced by an ugly political radicalism that seeks to oppress most people, especially women, and further enrich the already wealthy.
There is a reason, sir, that so many people regard 'Christian' as a very negative term. Sadly, many of those proclaim it the loudest are the least Christ-like and seem most oblivious to his teachings.
Francis, to this admittedly non-Catholic, seems to try to want to fix that.
I'm puzzled as to why you think that's a bad thing.
Or aren't the teachings of Jesus supposed to be the point of Christianity?
2
To write that Pope Francis is "flagrantly Trumpian" sounds distinctly Trumpian --hyperbolic beyond apparent reason, dishonest if self-aware, malicious, not unlike Flynn's rants against Hillary Clinton at the GOP ?
Perhaps Ross' insights into the horrors of enhanced access to grace for divorcees and rule of law for sexually abusive priests are beyond the understanding of simple gospel readers.
Perhaps Ross' insights into the horrors of enhanced access to grace for divorcees and rule of law for sexually abusive priests are beyond the understanding of simple gospel readers.
3
As an Argentinian, who happens to know about the Pope's work and as someone who has met him in person, I am apalled at the comparison made in the article.
I guess you could say Pope Francis is "radical" but a radical who preaches for love and inclusion perhaps more than ever before. He has deep respect for islam and Judaism and understands that there are many ways of serving God.
Take the case of the time when he worked with a catholic priest who was torn between his service to God and his love for a woman. So The pope, in all his practicality, adviced this man to work for a religious community which allowed marriage.
The Pope is practical and understands that there are many ways of serving and loving God. with all due respect Mr. Doubthat needs to be reminded that Pope Francis is the first Fransiscan pope,a nd as such, he serves the poor, not politics or corporations.
I would seriously advise the writer of this column to watch the movie on Pope Francis on Netflix.
It seems to me that this article was written from the mind, and the mind is very limited in comparison with the world and depths of the heart, a place which Pope Francis knows very well.
to sum up, it is so much easier to write critcism-which is not constructive-rather than doing (good)
I guess you could say Pope Francis is "radical" but a radical who preaches for love and inclusion perhaps more than ever before. He has deep respect for islam and Judaism and understands that there are many ways of serving God.
Take the case of the time when he worked with a catholic priest who was torn between his service to God and his love for a woman. So The pope, in all his practicality, adviced this man to work for a religious community which allowed marriage.
The Pope is practical and understands that there are many ways of serving and loving God. with all due respect Mr. Doubthat needs to be reminded that Pope Francis is the first Fransiscan pope,a nd as such, he serves the poor, not politics or corporations.
I would seriously advise the writer of this column to watch the movie on Pope Francis on Netflix.
It seems to me that this article was written from the mind, and the mind is very limited in comparison with the world and depths of the heart, a place which Pope Francis knows very well.
to sum up, it is so much easier to write critcism-which is not constructive-rather than doing (good)
7
The Pope versus Bannon? How can that be? The Pope reports to God with a dotted line to the people. Bannon reports to Trump or Goldman Sachs or Bannon with a dotted line to arcane fascist philosophers. Burke and conservative Vatican officials take their orders from the middle ages' gods of vested Catholic interests, the Crusades, the Borgias.
Let's call it for what it is...a battle between a modern monotheism and polytheism reinforced by the unreformed, crass medieval human condition.
Let's call it for what it is...a battle between a modern monotheism and polytheism reinforced by the unreformed, crass medieval human condition.
Hhmm, Ross, now who else in the Christian tradition could have been considered "radical" or a "shatterer of norms, a disregarder of traditions, ... [one] impatient with the strictures of church law"?
Or, right, the FOUNDER of the religion!
Ross, you know the "Golden Rule" does not mean that he who has the gold rules. So sit there on your well-paid, privileged perch and pontificate (if you will) about what makes a good Christian. But, maybe, just maybe you're wrong and maybe, just maybe it's you who should be confessing your sins of lusting after earthly power and earthly goodies. And maybe just maybe, the real problem with today's Christianity is not how it's loosened up on matters sexual but how it's loosened on matters which demand true sacrifice and true humility and true compassion and love.
Or, right, the FOUNDER of the religion!
Ross, you know the "Golden Rule" does not mean that he who has the gold rules. So sit there on your well-paid, privileged perch and pontificate (if you will) about what makes a good Christian. But, maybe, just maybe you're wrong and maybe, just maybe it's you who should be confessing your sins of lusting after earthly power and earthly goodies. And maybe just maybe, the real problem with today's Christianity is not how it's loosened up on matters sexual but how it's loosened on matters which demand true sacrifice and true humility and true compassion and love.
3
RD,
Your attempt at creating a meaningful analogy between Pres. Trump and Pope Francis is painfully sad. The Christian message of compassion for the needy and the "other" that Francis advocates is unimaginable in the context of the rhetoric of mean-spiritedness and dishonesty that the 2016 election has visited upon America. One frequently hears in RC sermons and sees in RC writings on both sides of their "aisle" about the search for truth in
the teachings of the gospels. There is no search for truth in the current US administration except for something to be avoided like a loathsome disease.
The Bannon/Burke connection is an interesting analogy, believe it or not as you wish, but it is provocative that someone of Bannon's persuasions (as evidenced by his Breitbart writings) is s RC, presumably someone who seeks to live the gospel message in his life, and pursues a relationship with someone with Burke's points of view.
Better luck next essay.
Your attempt at creating a meaningful analogy between Pres. Trump and Pope Francis is painfully sad. The Christian message of compassion for the needy and the "other" that Francis advocates is unimaginable in the context of the rhetoric of mean-spiritedness and dishonesty that the 2016 election has visited upon America. One frequently hears in RC sermons and sees in RC writings on both sides of their "aisle" about the search for truth in
the teachings of the gospels. There is no search for truth in the current US administration except for something to be avoided like a loathsome disease.
The Bannon/Burke connection is an interesting analogy, believe it or not as you wish, but it is provocative that someone of Bannon's persuasions (as evidenced by his Breitbart writings) is s RC, presumably someone who seeks to live the gospel message in his life, and pursues a relationship with someone with Burke's points of view.
Better luck next essay.
3
Ross
You write that Pope Francis is an "insult-heavy rhetorician" could you give me an example of his insults? Thanks.
You write that Pope Francis is an "insult-heavy rhetorician" could you give me an example of his insults? Thanks.
13
I always find it extraordinary that practices that are common in other developed nations--a safety net for the working class so they they do not, as do the elderly in third world countries who do not have one, beg on the streets; universal health care including prenatal care for the babies Mr. Douthat worries will be aborted; a living wage--are considered "fringe" and "radical" with Bernie Sanders, who advocated for them, dismissed as a wild-eyed revolutionary.
Especially since--well, you know, Jesus, and how he defined Christianity. But why should a Christian writer bother himself with Jesus's instructions about how to feed the poor when there is all that ancient church tradition and dogma to uphold. Again, I suppose we find ourselves calling radical another crazy Jew who thinks the bottom line of a successful nation is not making war but taking care of each other.
Especially since--well, you know, Jesus, and how he defined Christianity. But why should a Christian writer bother himself with Jesus's instructions about how to feed the poor when there is all that ancient church tradition and dogma to uphold. Again, I suppose we find ourselves calling radical another crazy Jew who thinks the bottom line of a successful nation is not making war but taking care of each other.
I just love how the money loving, lavish spending (on themselves ), conservative hierarchy of the Catholic Church dislikes this Pope and acts as if he is the one who is wrong. These clerics are the same group that hid all the pederasty going on in the clergy mainly because it would affect their bottom line.
As happens the world over these conservatives are power hungry authoritarians who preach a message of concern for all but act only for the rich and powerful.
As happens the world over these conservatives are power hungry authoritarians who preach a message of concern for all but act only for the rich and powerful.
7
Mr. Douthat claims that Pope Francis is "a radical pope."
In what way is he radical? Does Francis advocate opening up the priesthood to women? Does he advocate local ownership of church property? Does he advocate eliminating the celibacy requirement for priests?
No. And even if Francis did, this would not be radical or even liberal ... many denominations have been able to reply "yes" to such questions for centuries.
My conclusion: Francis IS NOT a radical pope, but Ross Douthat IS a radical liar.
In what way is he radical? Does Francis advocate opening up the priesthood to women? Does he advocate local ownership of church property? Does he advocate eliminating the celibacy requirement for priests?
No. And even if Francis did, this would not be radical or even liberal ... many denominations have been able to reply "yes" to such questions for centuries.
My conclusion: Francis IS NOT a radical pope, but Ross Douthat IS a radical liar.
9
"A New York Times/CBS News poll published on Sunday found that eight in 10 of his followers in the U.S. approve of the direction in which he is leading the Roman Catholic church, including a majority who approve strongly."
I am stunned that Trump actually won the Catholic vote in the United States, albeit by 7%. I presume most of these voters were voting for an Anti-Roe v. Wade supreme court judge rather than Trump the groper and general all-around bad boy. I wonder how many of these voters like the Trump they see now.
I find these two results hard to reconcile, but the poll makes it very clear Pope Francis is far more loved in the US than Bannon or Burke!
I am stunned that Trump actually won the Catholic vote in the United States, albeit by 7%. I presume most of these voters were voting for an Anti-Roe v. Wade supreme court judge rather than Trump the groper and general all-around bad boy. I wonder how many of these voters like the Trump they see now.
I find these two results hard to reconcile, but the poll makes it very clear Pope Francis is far more loved in the US than Bannon or Burke!
6
Now here is a good article for us Catholics (including recovering, awaiting, exiled, and diaspora ones) to discuss. Douthat is right on doubting the conspiracy part of it--though what better way for RC Bannon to undermine the prevailing liberal culture through neo-reaction. But he is conspiratorial himself by calling Francis a radical--though remember Jesus, whom Francis claims is his companion, and St Francis Assisi, from whom he took his name, were considered pretty radical by the Grand Inquisitors of the world.
Douthat lacks an analytic understanding of modernity and its passing. He certainly represents the reactionary Bannon view of that passing.
Douthat lacks an analytic understanding of modernity and its passing. He certainly represents the reactionary Bannon view of that passing.
6
Maybe the differences between these two men are in their backgrounds. The one in the slimy pit of NY development and self serving maliciousness. The other in the history of service to others, and in the battle between a conservative church which supported the worst right wing dictatorships in South America against the priests, nuns and other religious people who practiced Liberation Theology and who were persecuted by the regimes and the supportive church.
Therein might lie some more profound differences.
Therein might lie some more profound differences.
6
Are you kidding? No, really, are you kidding?
Pope Francis is not bulldozing anything as far as I can see. He seems to be recognizing and trying to apply the tenets of his faith to three of the most pressing issues of our time: growing economic inequality, climate change and planet degradation, and the mass migrations caused by both of those conditions and the dislocations of long wars. KA
Pope Francis is not bulldozing anything as far as I can see. He seems to be recognizing and trying to apply the tenets of his faith to three of the most pressing issues of our time: growing economic inequality, climate change and planet degradation, and the mass migrations caused by both of those conditions and the dislocations of long wars. KA
9
Dude, the "younger Catholic right" in this country could hold its meetings in a telephone booth.
You are in very deep denial.
You are in very deep denial.
12
This article is one big false equivalency.
If one person is racist, homophobic and misogynistic, and a hundred people on the other side are believers in "the liberal democratic order," that doesn't make them two equal poles. It makes the intolerant conservative just that - an intolerant conservative.
You are generally a reasoned, thoughtful writer, Mr. Douthat; but Francis painted as corresponding 'populist' to Trump is ridiculous. Trump's so-called 'populist' views in fact represent the views of a minority of Americans - white, conservative, intolerant and inclined to demonizing the "Other." Francis has generally shown, however, that he will do what he can to accommodate the rigid strictures of traditional Catholic doctrine to a young, global population that generally wants _more_ inclusion and _more_ tolerance. As many commented when he was first elected to take over, his mandate was to extend the reach of the Church and dissolve away the calcification of its relevance among a wider, more non-western audience.
If one person is racist, homophobic and misogynistic, and a hundred people on the other side are believers in "the liberal democratic order," that doesn't make them two equal poles. It makes the intolerant conservative just that - an intolerant conservative.
You are generally a reasoned, thoughtful writer, Mr. Douthat; but Francis painted as corresponding 'populist' to Trump is ridiculous. Trump's so-called 'populist' views in fact represent the views of a minority of Americans - white, conservative, intolerant and inclined to demonizing the "Other." Francis has generally shown, however, that he will do what he can to accommodate the rigid strictures of traditional Catholic doctrine to a young, global population that generally wants _more_ inclusion and _more_ tolerance. As many commented when he was first elected to take over, his mandate was to extend the reach of the Church and dissolve away the calcification of its relevance among a wider, more non-western audience.
6
As an Argentinian, who happens to know about the Pope's work and as someone who has met him in person I am apalled at the comparison made in the article.
I guess you could say Pope Francis is "radical" but a radical who preaches for love and inclusion perhaps more than ever before. He has deep respect for islam and Judaism and understands that there are many ways of serving God.
Take the case of the time when he worked with a catholic priest who was torn between his service to God and his love for a woman. So The pope, in all his practicality, adviced this man to work for a religious community which allowed marriage.
The Pope is practical and understands that there are many ways of serving and loving God. with all due respect Mr. Doubthat needs to be reminded that Pope Francis is the first Fransiscan pope,a nd as such, he serves the poor, not politics or corporations.
I would seriously advise the writer of this column to watch the movie on Pope Francis on Netflix.
It seems to me that this article was written from the mind, and the mind is very limited in comparison with the world and depths of the heart, a place which Pope Francis knows very well.
to sum up, it is so much easier to write critcism-which is not constructive-rather than doing.
I guess you could say Pope Francis is "radical" but a radical who preaches for love and inclusion perhaps more than ever before. He has deep respect for islam and Judaism and understands that there are many ways of serving God.
Take the case of the time when he worked with a catholic priest who was torn between his service to God and his love for a woman. So The pope, in all his practicality, adviced this man to work for a religious community which allowed marriage.
The Pope is practical and understands that there are many ways of serving and loving God. with all due respect Mr. Doubthat needs to be reminded that Pope Francis is the first Fransiscan pope,a nd as such, he serves the poor, not politics or corporations.
I would seriously advise the writer of this column to watch the movie on Pope Francis on Netflix.
It seems to me that this article was written from the mind, and the mind is very limited in comparison with the world and depths of the heart, a place which Pope Francis knows very well.
to sum up, it is so much easier to write critcism-which is not constructive-rather than doing.
6
There is a fundamental difference. Trump is a stupid man who revels in his ignorance. The Pope is not.
BVB
BVB
7
Not being a Roman Catholic, I do not understand the thinking of the conservatives among them. As I understand it, the selection of a pope is supposed to be under Divine guidance. Logically, the erroneous selection of a pope throws the entire process into question
Similarly, some years back back the attacks on the conclusions of Vatican Council II made it possible to question the authority of any previous Council.
Similarly, some years back back the attacks on the conclusions of Vatican Council II made it possible to question the authority of any previous Council.
"Obama is not a brown-skinned anti-war socialist who gives away free healthcare. You're thinking of Jesus."
If Mr Douthat wrote plays the genre would be magical realism. Both Bannon and Burke are mean spirited nuts without a shred of human kindness between the two of them. Francis is a Jesuit who understands the work of the church is to tend Christ's flock. He answers to the "eternal word" not fascists who are making their way back into public discourse.
If Mr Douthat wrote plays the genre would be magical realism. Both Bannon and Burke are mean spirited nuts without a shred of human kindness between the two of them. Francis is a Jesuit who understands the work of the church is to tend Christ's flock. He answers to the "eternal word" not fascists who are making their way back into public discourse.
10
Today, the mainstream of conservative Catholicism is not reactionary and not remotely Trumpian.
How can you say that? What I read with my own eyes suggests that Catholic priests heavily sermonized in favor of Trump in the run up to the election. Accounts of exit polls suggest that about two-thirds of Catholics voted for Trump. And -- anecdote is not evidence, but -- it's all consistent with the pro-Trump sentiment I hear from my own Catholic family.
How can you say that? What I read with my own eyes suggests that Catholic priests heavily sermonized in favor of Trump in the run up to the election. Accounts of exit polls suggest that about two-thirds of Catholics voted for Trump. And -- anecdote is not evidence, but -- it's all consistent with the pro-Trump sentiment I hear from my own Catholic family.
4
Radical pope?? To paraphrase comedian David Cross on the fact that Francis is a cool pope “The bar for being a radical Pope could not be lower if we were lying at the bottom of the Mariana Trench.”
4
Dear Mr. Douthat,
Your specious and vain attempt to compare Pope Francis and Donald Trump reminded me of an exchange from a book by Tom Robbins:
“Russell said that there is no difference between those men who eat too little and see Heaven and those who drink too much and see snakes.” Marvelous leered sardonically into his wine.
“The difference,” said Amanda serenely, “is that one of them sees Heaven and the other sees snakes.”
Your specious and vain attempt to compare Pope Francis and Donald Trump reminded me of an exchange from a book by Tom Robbins:
“Russell said that there is no difference between those men who eat too little and see Heaven and those who drink too much and see snakes.” Marvelous leered sardonically into his wine.
“The difference,” said Amanda serenely, “is that one of them sees Heaven and the other sees snakes.”
6
You are suggesting that the pope, who embraced Kim Davis, who opposes contraception and reproductive rights for women, and female ordination, is done kind of a "populist" leftist? Ha! Ha!
3
Mr. Douthat, your decision to call Pope Francis "Trumpian" because you've decided that he is an incompetent and radical "ruler" of the Catholic literally makes me dizzy.
You talking about the Catholic Church that has been internationally shamed and exposed because its bishops, its secondary "rulers," hushed up reports of child abuse for decades? You mean the Catholic Church that has long taught women to subject themselves to sex and become repeatedly pregnant, because it is God's will? I assume you picture God as a Big Guy. This explains your profound confusion. And cruelty.
You're the one who reminds me of Donald Trump. Not Pope Francis.
Here's an exercise. Read the Gospels again. Then again. Focus on the Beatitudes. Do this before you compose and publish another nonsensical screed.
Jesus Christ was a generous and disruptive radical, darlin', not a uniformed patriarchal bureaucrat in a big red silk hat. And God is most likely female. Think: birth.
You talking about the Catholic Church that has been internationally shamed and exposed because its bishops, its secondary "rulers," hushed up reports of child abuse for decades? You mean the Catholic Church that has long taught women to subject themselves to sex and become repeatedly pregnant, because it is God's will? I assume you picture God as a Big Guy. This explains your profound confusion. And cruelty.
You're the one who reminds me of Donald Trump. Not Pope Francis.
Here's an exercise. Read the Gospels again. Then again. Focus on the Beatitudes. Do this before you compose and publish another nonsensical screed.
Jesus Christ was a generous and disruptive radical, darlin', not a uniformed patriarchal bureaucrat in a big red silk hat. And God is most likely female. Think: birth.
15
While Cardinal Burke was Bishop of St. Louis,he tried to confiscate a
property owned by a Polish parish.He needed cash to pay off such debts as
victims of pedophilia were collecting. But the property had been given to
the parish under the special condition that it belonged to the parish and could not be claimed ever by the Diocese. The parish took the matter to a
civil court and won the right to keep their property. Whereupon, Burke
excommunicated those who had dared deny him the property. And the parish
was put under interdict. Burke is very bad man. And if thrice married Bannon is his friend, then one has to say they are strange bedfellows.
property owned by a Polish parish.He needed cash to pay off such debts as
victims of pedophilia were collecting. But the property had been given to
the parish under the special condition that it belonged to the parish and could not be claimed ever by the Diocese. The parish took the matter to a
civil court and won the right to keep their property. Whereupon, Burke
excommunicated those who had dared deny him the property. And the parish
was put under interdict. Burke is very bad man. And if thrice married Bannon is his friend, then one has to say they are strange bedfellows.
15
Mr. Douthat had a few gratifyingly sensible columns back when there still seemed a chance of stopping Trump's candidacy. But now, for reasons of his own, he's back to demonstrating the misuse of rhetorical techniques to blur otherwise clear ethical distinctions. The heart of this piece is a hollow, distressingly strange comparison very close to those one sees in certain alt-right Twitter feeds. I'd imagine an editor would have been within bounds to query such an illogical approach. And Mr. Douthat should have known enough to get off that horse as soon as he saw it wouldn't take him the distance.
5
Pope Francis, despite good intentions, is just another spokesman for the worlds richest (untaxed) corporation: an irrelevant, unprovable fairy tale designed to extort power and wealth from fearful masses. Until humanity focuses on the here-and-now problems of our observable world, embraces logic, critical thinking and egalitarianism, the world will remain victims of snake-oil shamen peddling rusty myths and fiery judgment, who, if reason reigned, couldn't make a living otherwise. The pedophilia scandal awoke millions to the calculated institutional deceit inherent in ALL religions, and sometime this century secular humanism will become the DOMINANT paradigm of educated beings. Someday the Bible, Quran, Talmud, Vedas and Tripitaka will be read with the same objectivity and critical eye as Portnoy's Complaint or Moby Dick. The ONE CONSISTENT unifying theory of humanity should be on our shared experience, our rise from the Paleolithic swamp to physical dominance based on our ability to SOLVE PROBLEMS in the HERE AND NOW. That is what humans CAN do when not otherwise distracted, and is our best hope in avoiding catastrophic collapse.
I hope Ross and NYT staff reflect upon the changing ideals of sentient beings and not cling to deus ex machina explanations or exhort intercession by fanciful spirits. A little less WWJD and a little more "cui bono?" might make the intentions and actions of rich reactionary greed merchants more comprehensible to you.
I hope Ross and NYT staff reflect upon the changing ideals of sentient beings and not cling to deus ex machina explanations or exhort intercession by fanciful spirits. A little less WWJD and a little more "cui bono?" might make the intentions and actions of rich reactionary greed merchants more comprehensible to you.
1
Simmer down, there will still be cornflakes tomorrow for breakfast or pancakes, and some of us have long reached our quota of astonishment. There are two persons whom I admire and respect. One is President Obama who makes me feel proud to be an American, the other is Pope Francis, rarely judgmental. As the French saying goes, it warms my heart to see these two humanitarians together.
It is doubtful that either have read the work of Brian Moore who fled Irish Catholicism in adolescence and moved to Canada. Graham Greene, an anguished Catholic in many ways, was to declare this quiet man one of the greatest novelists of his times. Not for the faint of heart, he is trenchant.
Neither President Obama, nor the Pope, have anything in common with Trump or Bannon, but are deeply concerned about America and the Future of the World.
Perhaps these words were written for them, the former, both honorable human beings: 'Who is blind? The man who cannot see another world. Who is dumb? The man that cannot say a kind word at the right time. Who is poor? The man plagued with too strong desires. Who is rich? The man whose heart is contented'.
Let us pray that we navigate through this dark passage in history.
It is doubtful that either have read the work of Brian Moore who fled Irish Catholicism in adolescence and moved to Canada. Graham Greene, an anguished Catholic in many ways, was to declare this quiet man one of the greatest novelists of his times. Not for the faint of heart, he is trenchant.
Neither President Obama, nor the Pope, have anything in common with Trump or Bannon, but are deeply concerned about America and the Future of the World.
Perhaps these words were written for them, the former, both honorable human beings: 'Who is blind? The man who cannot see another world. Who is dumb? The man that cannot say a kind word at the right time. Who is poor? The man plagued with too strong desires. Who is rich? The man whose heart is contented'.
Let us pray that we navigate through this dark passage in history.
6
Religious mythology, intrigue, struggle for power. Who cares!
1
While there are 1.2 billion Catholics only 24% of Americans are Catholic. American Catholics are only 7% of Catholics. The most populous Catholic nations are not European. About 40% of Catholics live in Latin America.
There has never been a brown Brazilian nor Mexican nor Filipino Pope. Pope Francis is the 1st generation Argentine born son of Italian immigrants.
No Pope has ever been more radically humane humble wise empathetic and human than the first one aka the Rock aka Petrus aka Peter. John Paul II gave a knighthood to the Nazi Kurt Waldheim. Benedict XVI was in the Hitler Youth and the Wehrmacht. Jesus was a left-wing liberal Middle Eastern socialist. See Matthew 25:31-46
There has never been a brown Brazilian nor Mexican nor Filipino Pope. Pope Francis is the 1st generation Argentine born son of Italian immigrants.
No Pope has ever been more radically humane humble wise empathetic and human than the first one aka the Rock aka Petrus aka Peter. John Paul II gave a knighthood to the Nazi Kurt Waldheim. Benedict XVI was in the Hitler Youth and the Wehrmacht. Jesus was a left-wing liberal Middle Eastern socialist. See Matthew 25:31-46
I am unsure what Mr. Douthat's premise is here. Is American media wrong (and a bit arrogant) to conflate American politics with the Catholic Church? Yes. That would be a fine article-- the single burden imposed on responsible journalism by freedom of religion and separation of church and state is that journalists must constantly be on their guard to avoid remixing the two. Is Pope Francis some sort of far-left theological radical bent on destruction of the Church from within? No. That would be a dithering, paranoid and supremely short-sighted article-- has Mr. Douthat actually read anything the Pope has said or written? Pope Francis is neither the radical Mr. Douthat and his cronies suppose, nor the progressive that certain media outlets pine for and convince themselves he is. I suspect Mr. Douthat takes his tiresome and supremely unoriginal talking points more from the flat earth of conservative talk radio than from faith or reason. The fusion of these two premises is not achieved with any precision, grace, or even articulateness, despite a great deal of promise in the introductory paragraphs. The real tragedy is that this sort of tripe passes for a balancing influence upon the Times's other journalism.
2
Jesus was a radical. He had a message of love, mercy and forgiveness. There were only two commandments. Pope Francis is imitating Jesus. Do these conservative critics believe that the Pope is infallible? If so, then shut up. If not, then you are picking and choosing what to believe, the very thing you criticize others for. This is the 500 year anniversary of the Reformation. It appears that many have not learned a thing since then.
9
Douthat is under the false impression that Catholic traditionalist have some noble, defendable past. To a lot of us they are the Inquisition murdering women, the collaborators of Hitler and Mussolini (sadly all high ranking Nazis were Catholic), and more recently the enablers of the child-sex priest scandals such as Marcial Maciel Degollado.
Pope Francis is the most Christ like pope Since Pope John XXIII. Vatican II was a time when women were starting to have input in the Catholic Church. Pope John wanted to draw back the curtains and open the window in order to shed light on the dusty, crusty circle of old white men making all decisions.
Pope Francis still has a long way to go to be as inclusive as Jesus was of men and women, but a far cry closer than any traditionalist. Jesus never mentioned birth control bans or anti-homosexual edicts. Thats all made up by traditionalists.
Pope Francis is the most Christ like pope Since Pope John XXIII. Vatican II was a time when women were starting to have input in the Catholic Church. Pope John wanted to draw back the curtains and open the window in order to shed light on the dusty, crusty circle of old white men making all decisions.
Pope Francis still has a long way to go to be as inclusive as Jesus was of men and women, but a far cry closer than any traditionalist. Jesus never mentioned birth control bans or anti-homosexual edicts. Thats all made up by traditionalists.
12
"The mainstream of conserevative Catholicism is not . . . remotely Trumpian." Yet white Catholics voted heavily for Trump. A comtradiction? Perhaps they voted for Trump yet were not enthused by all of what he stands for. Or perhaps you mean "conservative Catholicism" in a global sense?
2
Donald Trump is just showing how irrelevant he is making himself, by going along to tear down the Vatican. The Papacy, for all intents and purposes, is merely a throw-back to old pageantry and traditions, just like most of the existing Royalty--in Japan, Thailand and Western Europe.
But, the Papacy might be a little more important than the others; because, it gave way to the very ideas of of what made Europe--a veritable backwater, among the great nations of the Ancient World--following the Protestant Revolution, Europe became the leading region, when it came to the Enlightenment, Discovery and Exploration.
Modern thought came from the explosion, out of Europe--and the Big-Bang ignited from mistrust in the Papacy. Over the last few decades, the Vatican has tried--in fits and starts--to make itself relevant again, with the modern Era. Pope Francis I seems to be a breath of fresh air. People from all religious points-of-view--including those with none--who view Francis as the first religious leader who is attempting to blend history, reality and theology with modern reality.
https://thetruthoncommonsense.com
But, the Papacy might be a little more important than the others; because, it gave way to the very ideas of of what made Europe--a veritable backwater, among the great nations of the Ancient World--following the Protestant Revolution, Europe became the leading region, when it came to the Enlightenment, Discovery and Exploration.
Modern thought came from the explosion, out of Europe--and the Big-Bang ignited from mistrust in the Papacy. Over the last few decades, the Vatican has tried--in fits and starts--to make itself relevant again, with the modern Era. Pope Francis I seems to be a breath of fresh air. People from all religious points-of-view--including those with none--who view Francis as the first religious leader who is attempting to blend history, reality and theology with modern reality.
https://thetruthoncommonsense.com
2
Ross Douthat, this is such a ridiculous comparison that at first I was strained to believe it was not irony. Alas. It is difficult to imagine how these two men could be any more different, one a slave to money and power, the other to mercy and love. Get a grip.
8
To Burke...He is the pope, elected by the College of Cardinals, guided by the Holy Spirit, who is inerrant. He is merely trying to rein in decades of comfortable existence by the "old boys network" with their chaffeurs , expense accounts and red shoes,etc. Francis is trying to bring the Jesus of History back because at the end of the day.. it is all about HIM. When you get elected as Pope, then you can re-instate the comfy mileu you so cherish. In the meantime, get over it.
11
Wow this piece is quite astonishing in its lack of depth. Ross actually claims that Donald Trump and Pope Francis are at the head of similar "populist" movements? It's certainly true that both have supporters and detractors, but that's the extent of the similarity. Pope Francis has an ideological theme, one that he and many others believe consistent with the Church's foundation. Trump has no ideological theme; he has a twitter account, and substitutes opportunism for policy.
This piece should not have been published in the NYTimes. It lacks credibility, depth, and makes me wonder why Douthat is given such a large megaphone to voice such dribble.
This piece should not have been published in the NYTimes. It lacks credibility, depth, and makes me wonder why Douthat is given such a large megaphone to voice such dribble.
12
I regret that I have concluded that Mr. Douthat is not capable of hearing the voice of Pope Francis. The pope is challenging all of us to rediscover - and then to live - Christ's teaching of love, mercy and forgiveness. Christ's message calls upon all of us to reach out to and lift up the poor, the sick, the refugees, the prisoners and all the outcasts of the world. Conservative Catholics like Mr. Douthat do not entirely ignore that message, but to them it has always been secondary to an deep-seated need for an authoritarian Church that draws strict rules governing personal conduct. This is especially true with respect to sexual conduct; hence Mr. Douthat's obsession with divorce and remarriage. Ross's wants a Catholic Church that makes it easy to separate the righteous and saved from the sinners and condemned. It proves comfort to those who can stay on the right side of the lines drawn by the Church. Given Mr. Douthat's vision of the Church, it is easy to understand why he is disturbed by Pope Francis. Today's essay is not his first effort to belittle Pope Francis, and it will not be his last, but it is perhaps his silliest.
8
As a Catholic I overlook Pope Francis's indulgences this way: he's the Pope so he can be wrong if he wants to be.
But I have no such patience for the screwball Bannon; a figure I don't want picking up the White House trash much less being a top advisor.
I see but a tangential connection between the Pope and Trump, despite the strained effort of some to make such a connection.
Let me conclude that Mr. Douthat continues to be one of the better commentators on Trump. Thanks, Mr. Douthat.
But I have no such patience for the screwball Bannon; a figure I don't want picking up the White House trash much less being a top advisor.
I see but a tangential connection between the Pope and Trump, despite the strained effort of some to make such a connection.
Let me conclude that Mr. Douthat continues to be one of the better commentators on Trump. Thanks, Mr. Douthat.
Ross is the Times' "House Catholic" molded in the image of Benedict and John Paul II. Sorry Ross, but the church is at a crossroads now. There is a real danger of a large number of the church's membership, loyal Catholics heeding the call of right-wing authoritarianism. This has already unfolded in the overwhelmingly Catholic Philippines and is underway here. It's not melodrama but a rel struggle for the soul of the Church and its future. The Father Coughlins of today are real and dangerous. Pope Francis is doing his best to face them in a battle that is too real for you to hide from.
6
Not a Catholic, Ross but this quote about Francis really got to me: " . . . his high-stakes push to change church discipline on remarriage and divorce . . ." To me, a Christian non-Catholic, it just seems he's applying the "What would Jesus do?" test to all the various laws and doctrines of the institutional church that would shock Christ. "What? This in MY name?" It started well before Luther, and still a ways to go. More power to him.
11
Quite a stretch,Ross.
Francis Vs.Donald.
Good vs. bad.
Left Vs. wrong.
Populist vs. popular.
Humility vs, narcissism.
Charity toward all vs. greed is good for me.
A plum vs. an orange
Francis Vs.Donald.
Good vs. bad.
Left Vs. wrong.
Populist vs. popular.
Humility vs, narcissism.
Charity toward all vs. greed is good for me.
A plum vs. an orange
7
Douthat has long been the Time's Conservative Catholic, and has written often in that vein.
But comparing Pope Francis with the bully Donald Trump is ridiculous, and simply the opinion
of a very conservative Conservative Catholic. He is taking sides against a Pope that is the
first positive world-wide face of the Vatican in years. Francis also happens to be an activist
who works in behalf of the poor and oppressed, a view not shared by many of the Vatican's
conservative administration, nor shared by the columnist Douthat. Until the current Pope dies
or is otherwise replaced, we can expect more of this malarky from Douthat.
But comparing Pope Francis with the bully Donald Trump is ridiculous, and simply the opinion
of a very conservative Conservative Catholic. He is taking sides against a Pope that is the
first positive world-wide face of the Vatican in years. Francis also happens to be an activist
who works in behalf of the poor and oppressed, a view not shared by many of the Vatican's
conservative administration, nor shared by the columnist Douthat. Until the current Pope dies
or is otherwise replaced, we can expect more of this malarky from Douthat.
11
Trump is A-OK. The pope is a dangerous radical. Thank goodness we've settled that. Heckuva job Russ.
12
As a Jew, married to a devout, left leaning Catholic, I encourage the progressive elements in the Vatican to continue going forward. The Church has a dark, bloody history (as do all religions) with massive child abuse as the latest example. The cowardice of pope Pius ll helped lead to the murder of 6,000,000 Jews. His followers hands will forever be stained red. If the Old Testament is correct in exclaiming "Jews are Gods chosen" very few Christians are going to pass through those pearly gates. Pope Francis is the first pontiff I've actually admired. John ll might well have made the cut were it not for his indifference toward the tens of thousand children raped under his watch...
3
I always read your columns and often disagree with them. This time, however, you astound me with your illogic. How you can criticize Pope Francis for following Jesus saddens me. I will pray for you.
13
Although it is a broad stroke, the connection between Bannon and Burke is really simple. They both represent conservative regressive movements that want to return society to earlier times and attitudes. Both promote reductionist and simplistic perceptions of human nature, social organization, and cosmology. Both would be content to restore the Middle Ages.
4
The flaw in your piece is that Trump frightens because of her tempeament and erratic, nasty behavior. Francis frightens because he wants to liberate Catholics from centuries of imprisonment of radical beliefs.
5
except that the US is supposed to be a democracy, while the church is hierarchical by definition. Further, the pope has the option as an extreme measure to declare infallibility, something that Trump would only be able to do under the sound of deafening laughter.
1
I don't know whether I find Douthats characterization of Pope Francis hysterically funny or just hysterical. Drawing parallels to trump, really Ross, what's a conservative to do.
5
I'm not a Catholic, so forgive me if I get this wrong: Isn't the Pope a religious leader, whose actions are divinely inspired? So his leadership is not just a matter of political calculation as per the Republicans in orbit around Trump but a matter of belief that the Pope is in fact the "Vicar of Christ" and thus brings insights about what service to God now requires. I also think Ross makes a fundamental mistake in analogizing Francis in any way to Trump. The exertion of leadership in the name of love, compassion, empathy, humanity is the antithesis of Trumpism.
94
There is a clear dis-analogy between Trump and the Pope: The Pope never sought power for power's sake, as Trump appears to do. The Pope was content to be in the background, and live the Redemption story of inclusion, as opposed to what had become the popular version, which began to define Redemption in terms of what they no longer were----"We saw the light and we are no longer like those sinners, those creatures of darkness." The Pope took power to show the lived life of the Redemption story that had inclusion of all, in salvation's grace. The "we are not like them" branch now seeks power from Trump, to put the law behind their efforts, thinking Trump will help them in the name of religious freedom, which is in fact, nothing more than a way to exclude others from basic human rights.
51
Pope Francis is a Jesuit, a defender of the poor & disenfranchised.He must lean to the left in order to follow what Christ stood for.This is contrary to everything that the Bannons of the world represent.
8
The Federalist Society and others were very close to Pope Benedict - especially when he was Cardinal Ratzinger. His homophobia and conservatism fit well with other conservative beliefs among US Catholics. Bannon is just the second generation.
1
On one hand, there's the Pope and the fabulism surrounding the character called God; on the other, there's the Embarrassment and the fabulism surrounding the brand called Trump. Both in thrall to a fiction, both able to affect many lives, but only one with the nuclear codes.
4
The Roman Catholic Church was well on its way to be irrelevant in America and Europe, and losing ground to evangelical Christians elsewhere, before this Pope decided to change its course. Being stringent and doctrinaire might have comforted those who need black and white in a gray world but certainly would hasten the church's fading from the world stage.
1
To refer to Pope Francis as "Trumpian" in any way, shape or form is ludicrous. As for what happens when "an institution's center doesn't hold", I say, as a Catholic, thank God that the corrupt center of the Church is folding at last. A serious rebuild is in order.
116
It was a few years go that the College of Cardinals elected as pope a South American proponent of the socially-active and aware Church. Now they are surprised? Just like the DT voters who are beginning to wonder what they have brought forth. Difference being the Pope is doing God's work, DT is doing his own work.
91
The Church will survive Burke and Bannon without a problem. Francis has already changed the Church for the better but it still has a long way to go. Francis has the support of most Catholics and non Catholics alike and none of the Burke-Bannon hatred. Like Trump now, the Right wing may have won the battle, but they are far from winning the war.
3
I stopped believing in the church in high school when a priest hit me for telling him the truth. The abuse of children is a well known part of church history and why it's still a viable entity is hard to fathom. This new pope seems ok, but there are too many forces against him for him to succeed. It also doesn't help that Steve Bannon is against this pope. What a waste of time it all is.
Both Trump and Pope Francis are disruptors. That's the only thing they have in common. They cannot redefine anything. Only the people do that both in the American democracy and in the Catholic Church. Whether Op-Ed writers agree or not.
3
Now I've read everything.
Trump and Pop Francis are polar opposites.
Their end goals are impossible co-existence.
Trump and Pop Francis are polar opposites.
Their end goals are impossible co-existence.
1
Good column, Ross. You put the events and struggles in the Vatican into a plausible pattern that throws some light on them. And of course similar disruptions are occurring in the White House. That these two theaters are connected does not seem plausible but it's fun to speculate. I agree with you that Francis is a radical, but I don't think Burke is a reactionary; he's just standing up for canon law, which was his job.
My father was a wandering Aramean so all land is holy and Israel offered me sanctuary sadly too late for the few members of family that didn't leave on time or chose to return to the prosperity of Poland to the peasantry of NYC.
The Jesuit theology is European and it is tied to the sacredness of the land to its indigenous population. If Cardinal Burke returned to Barcelona or South Bend I would celebrate but in the age of nuclear weapons and mutually assured destruction Jesuits should be kept away from seats of power even as much as I admire their education and sophistry. Who but a Jesuit could give Militia and Arms new definitions to reinterpret the second amendment and call it original intent.
The Jesuit theology is European and it is tied to the sacredness of the land to its indigenous population. If Cardinal Burke returned to Barcelona or South Bend I would celebrate but in the age of nuclear weapons and mutually assured destruction Jesuits should be kept away from seats of power even as much as I admire their education and sophistry. Who but a Jesuit could give Militia and Arms new definitions to reinterpret the second amendment and call it original intent.
1
This is a silly comparison. Trump is the elected leader of a democracy, responsible to all his constituents and with his actions constrained by the constitution. Francis, elected by a tiny church aristocracy, is presumed to be Christ's Vicar on Earth, responsible only to God. Let's not equate Trump's steamrolling of democratic principles with the actions taken by the leader of a religious sect.
4
Methinks Mr. Douthat is dangling the distracting shiny bauble of the Francis-is-like-Trump conflation so he can in the same article de-conflate Bannon-is-like-Burke with minimal blowback. Judging from many of the comments, he has succeeded.
2
If Francis is as radical as Jesus then we're in good hands.
Your attacks on the pope are shameful. He is nothing like Trump.
6
If you want to bring back the most conservative tendencies and practices of the Church, Ross, you should fear the Inquisition, as you are much too liberal. Be careful what you ask for, as it it said.
1
Our intrepid scribe can be relied on to write what he knows about. The result is very little. The best he can do with clear examples of good and evil is claim they are mirror images important only for the opposition they create. I am certain that sort of thing is necessary trait for identification as a true believer conservative regardless of the ideology being served. It is the core appeal to those willing to perform the most heinous acts of depravity to prove their loyalty to the cause. Grasping intolerance of the intolerant is too much to ask for those comfortable with their indoctrinated truths that extremism is virtue and moderation a vice. God and country are just too convenient excuses to treat others as enemies. Where would Ross and his fellow travelers be without their laundry list of enemies?
4
pretty right on but I think Corbyn rather supports Brexit. Also, do the cardinals get to disagree with the Pope? What they say under their hats is one thing, but...
Aren't you forgetting something? The Vatican swamp was called pedophilia with thousands of victims and millions of dollars in damage (only in the USA, though - in other countries not a penny) that cost the church the closure of dozens of churches and schools.
Aren't you also forgetting the Vatican bank, a remarkable washing machine where billions of dollars of drug traffickers were scrubbed clean and recycled into the legal market?
A pope was forced to resign to get out from under the crossfire of blackmails and other sordid deeds. There were murders and suicides in the Vatican at the highest level.
And you want to reduce everything to some sort of political squabble between ideological enemies?
Aren't you also forgetting the Vatican bank, a remarkable washing machine where billions of dollars of drug traffickers were scrubbed clean and recycled into the legal market?
A pope was forced to resign to get out from under the crossfire of blackmails and other sordid deeds. There were murders and suicides in the Vatican at the highest level.
And you want to reduce everything to some sort of political squabble between ideological enemies?
Did anyone else notice that this column is only about men?
3
Douthat, after you call the Pope "radical" Emma-Kate Symons claim gets a clean bill of health.
The Catholic Church and the white evangelicals in the US are both "slouching towards Bethlehem." They're simply taking different roads to get there.
The connection? They all hate non-Christians, and want to create Christian theocracies? (NOT that trump subscribes to any particular "religion," other than self-worship.)
2
There's much here to ponder. I suggest that the Catholic Church, as portrayed, is a bit simplistic. The 'church' has experienced a mass migration out of the fold, especially with the child abuse scandals. However, many of those remaining may be very religiously conservative yet be socially liberal. The 'right wing' Republicans are largely from the more 'fundamental' followers of Christianity. In this respect, the Bannon/Cardinal analogy works - for me, for now. P.S. no data-mining done.
Rules, rules, rules....we must obey our rules. Seems to me that Pope Francis could fill a Church or a hillside with more rule-suffocated Catholics, people of other faiths, non-believers, and agnostics than a Burke ever could. Keep it up and the whole false edifice will come crumbling down. And I have no doubt that Jesus, the Jesus we know from the Gospels, would be most pleased. "Who am I to Judge" is the most (and maybe the only) Christ-like statement I've ever heard from the Church in my 72 yrs. You do the Church no service, Ross...especially when you mention trump and His Holiness in the same paragraph.
What the "conservative Catholics" condemn is actually basic Christian ethics as taught by Jesus Christ.
"Francis is flagrantly Trumpian..."
Ross, this is utter nonsense and you know it, so stop insulting our intelligence.
If it weren't for Francis and hie like minded, the church would already be even more irrelevant than it is now to an ever growing part of the people.
As for Trump, seems you are trying to exorcize him aren't you? Well, watch the movie again if it makes you feel good, but you know, and we know, as Leonard Cohen sang, "He's your man".
Ross, this is utter nonsense and you know it, so stop insulting our intelligence.
If it weren't for Francis and hie like minded, the church would already be even more irrelevant than it is now to an ever growing part of the people.
As for Trump, seems you are trying to exorcize him aren't you? Well, watch the movie again if it makes you feel good, but you know, and we know, as Leonard Cohen sang, "He's your man".
11
OMG! Comparing the Trump junk with conflicts in the Catholic Church? Only comparison I see is the cover-up of sexual abuse by the Church and the cover-up by Trump's administration that they are for working Americans.
5
Brianne Altice, 37, a former teacher at David High School in Kaysville, Utah, was sentenced in 2015 to two to 30 years in prison on three felony counts of forcible sex abuse. -- Feb. 1, 2017
* * *
There are dozens such stories just a few keystrokes away. From Penn State to Horace Mann School to the Brooklyn yeshivas, teacher-student sex scandals all over the place. Even UC Berkeley, and Stanford U., last year. Look it up.
* * *
There are dozens such stories just a few keystrokes away. From Penn State to Horace Mann School to the Brooklyn yeshivas, teacher-student sex scandals all over the place. Even UC Berkeley, and Stanford U., last year. Look it up.
2
"natural desire for a unifying theory..."
Maybe for you, but why drag the "radical" Pope into the Trump sewer?
Have you no sense of decency, sir??
Maybe for you, but why drag the "radical" Pope into the Trump sewer?
Have you no sense of decency, sir??
20
I agree that the Pope is helping to forge tomorrow's Catholic right, but he is doing it the way Obama helped forge today's American Right. To try to argue that Pope Francis is similar to Trump is simply incorrect. Pope Francis is not a racist and sexist pig.
14
Neither is Bill Clinton, or Donald Trump. But Sen. John Edwards was and is, though not as egregious as Thomas Jefferson.
1
"racist and sexist pig" is definitely the language of an intolerant point of view, undoubtedly not in the Pope's lexicon.
1
Mr. Doubtthat, Intolerance is intolerance, wherever you find it. We all have freedom to make our choices in life. That is a gift. I choose tolerance, compassion, and kindness like our Pope.
17
Tolerance of active, knowing sinners is itself a sin. You're complicit. "Forgive me for what I have done, and what I have failed to do." -- The Credo
A couple of days before the election this Pope said, that a woman will never ever hold a position of power in the Catholic Church.
For me this sounded like an Endorsement of Trump. Maybe he didn't mean it . Then it was a stupid thing to do.
For me this sounded like an Endorsement of Trump. Maybe he didn't mean it . Then it was a stupid thing to do.
3
I am soooo tired of hearing about women as the center of reality, as though they just came into existence.
2
"A radical pope"?!?!?! Really?
Maybe the difference is that Douthat converted to Catholicism, and I was raised in it, but Francis is no more liberal than Paul VI (under whose papacy I was raised and went to Catholic school) and certainly less liberal than John XXIII.
The issue in this piece by Douthat is the same as the issue always is for Douthat: who has power, at the expense of whom? Who controls people's married lives - people who can't get married? Who controls women's bodies - people who can't get pregnant?
Better said - it's about power.
Funny Douthat mentions the Knights of Columbus, but not John Paul II's takeover the Jesuits. Or Benedict's takeover of the nuns - who are now taking care of him in his frail old age.
Cardinal Burke likes his cappa magna; Francis lives in a monk's cell. That tells you all the difference there is between the two men's view of Catholicism.
Maybe the difference is that Douthat converted to Catholicism, and I was raised in it, but Francis is no more liberal than Paul VI (under whose papacy I was raised and went to Catholic school) and certainly less liberal than John XXIII.
The issue in this piece by Douthat is the same as the issue always is for Douthat: who has power, at the expense of whom? Who controls people's married lives - people who can't get married? Who controls women's bodies - people who can't get pregnant?
Better said - it's about power.
Funny Douthat mentions the Knights of Columbus, but not John Paul II's takeover the Jesuits. Or Benedict's takeover of the nuns - who are now taking care of him in his frail old age.
Cardinal Burke likes his cappa magna; Francis lives in a monk's cell. That tells you all the difference there is between the two men's view of Catholicism.
29
Please explains what "takeover" means for Nuns who've sworn a vow of Obedience, and need no hectoring to do their duty.
Of course Pope Francis does not live in a monk's cell. If he was that ascetic, he would've refused to become Pope.
Of course Pope Francis does not live in a monk's cell. If he was that ascetic, he would've refused to become Pope.
The Order of Malta "Knights" are not the Knights of Columbus. Let's get the really important facts right. Maybe some of the rest of your message needs clarifying as well. Power is in the eye of the beholder.
1
Mr Douthat... Pope Francis is the best thing to happen in the Catholic church in 50 years. If all you Pharisees would quit focusing on the rules that divide-like whether divorced catholics can remarry or take communion, then Catholicism would be a much more viable institution.
If Jesus said anything, his message was one of inclusion and love, which ignored all the "rules".
If Jesus said anything, his message was one of inclusion and love, which ignored all the "rules".
24
Problem is that love, strangely enough, is not enough to guide societies. Reality, one discovers at about age two, is more complicated. Love by itself is the meaning of life for pre-two-year-olds and post-ninety-year-olds. In between, it becomes necessary to merge love with circumstances (reality).
I come not to abolish the law but to fulfil it.
3
I am troubled by a columnist who could equate this Pope -- any Pope -- with this president.
31
Dear Mr. Douthat,
I don't think you EVER tried the "bait and switch" routine before in your columns.
Let me elaborate. While everybody else with a brain and a 'media' outlet is screaming about the Russian 'takeover' of the American political system, you give us an article about the "Bannon-Burke" conspiracy.
Nice bait, lousy switch.
The pope may be causing 'controversy' in the Catholic Church but, in reality, has done nothing to 'change' that church. Like YOUR guy, Mr. Trump, he's an expert at "smoke and mirrors" with nothing tangible to show for all the posturings.
In short, I don't really care what the Catholic Church and it's smooth talking Carnival barker is peddling and, as a columnist for this paper, neither should you.
I realize your trying some form of 'damage control' by bringing this 'non-issue' to everyone's attention but, quite frankly, I just wish I had that 5 minutes of my life I spent reading your column back to do something more worthwhile, like petting my cat.
I don't think you EVER tried the "bait and switch" routine before in your columns.
Let me elaborate. While everybody else with a brain and a 'media' outlet is screaming about the Russian 'takeover' of the American political system, you give us an article about the "Bannon-Burke" conspiracy.
Nice bait, lousy switch.
The pope may be causing 'controversy' in the Catholic Church but, in reality, has done nothing to 'change' that church. Like YOUR guy, Mr. Trump, he's an expert at "smoke and mirrors" with nothing tangible to show for all the posturings.
In short, I don't really care what the Catholic Church and it's smooth talking Carnival barker is peddling and, as a columnist for this paper, neither should you.
I realize your trying some form of 'damage control' by bringing this 'non-issue' to everyone's attention but, quite frankly, I just wish I had that 5 minutes of my life I spent reading your column back to do something more worthwhile, like petting my cat.
15
I think Steve Bannon, the thrice divorced former Wall Street banker who peddles in lies (ahem, alternative facts) and borders on white supremacy, knows the what's what for the Catholic Church!
Of course.
Of course.
8
3 divorces? Why so few? This is America, after all, where marriage vows mean nothing, and Adultery is winked at, and encouraged by the media. 50 shades of cheating.
Can you say Newt? Can you Rudy?
2
To the founding fathers, a Pope and our form of government would be mutually exclusive. That ship has sailed. Yet how many Catholics voted for Trump?
Isn't Bannon both Irish and Catholic? Pence a mutated Catholic? etc.
Sorry to sound like a hater. But at least a non Catholic and non Jew is going to be on the supreme court, although too conservative.
Post Calvinist protestants still have their place.
Isn't Bannon both Irish and Catholic? Pence a mutated Catholic? etc.
Sorry to sound like a hater. But at least a non Catholic and non Jew is going to be on the supreme court, although too conservative.
Post Calvinist protestants still have their place.
Yes of course, but..... how does a person mutate? And why then is Darwin's theory of Evolution still not accepted, if Evolved Mutations walk among us? Heck, there's your missing fossil record, right there.
non Caholic? Gorsuch.
Read the fine print on how he was raised and where he was educated and what he believes and what positions he stakes out. Right wing Roman Catholic, right wing Roman Cathlic right wing Roman Catholic. The very odd American variety
He is one of them. The right wing American Roman Catholics who are trying to turn the non Roman Catholic American constitution into a Canon law document. The whole sharia thing by right wing Catholics is just projection.
Read the fine print on how he was raised and where he was educated and what he believes and what positions he stakes out. Right wing Roman Catholic, right wing Roman Cathlic right wing Roman Catholic. The very odd American variety
He is one of them. The right wing American Roman Catholics who are trying to turn the non Roman Catholic American constitution into a Canon law document. The whole sharia thing by right wing Catholics is just projection.
Mr. Douthat - you are giving light to this conspiracy and your very amplification of it makes you part of it for it has no legitimacy. Unlike Trump, Bannon, and the uprising of our so-called 'populists', Pope Francis has a grounding force - one that is pure, holy, and unshakable - Jesus. Jesus' message of 2,000 years ago was the exact same as it is today: love God above all others and show that love in what you value, what you say, and most importantly, what you do. It is the corruption of this extremely clear message that has been corrupted over the millennia and people like Bannon and even Cardinal Burke who have forgotten this singular message. Pope Francis chooses to live and espouse the most humble virtues that Jesus himself provided as a prescription for all of us: humanity, humility, empathy, and grace for all humans. Extreme views to the opposite are sure to revolt but they are not aligned with Jesus Christ's teachings; Pope Francis is reminding us on a daily basis what that looks like. To suggest that there's any kind of 'mirror' is an affront to the truth itself.
10
I don't know what the purpose of religion is other than to help the poor, give humanity consolation for the death that awaits us and promote compassion for each other. Everything else is theology and theology is the invention of men driven by inexorable logic. The fact is that religion has always feared human sexuality because it is the strongest rival to it. As Scarpia in "Tosca" exclaims,
as the Te Deum soars above: "Tosca, you make me forget God".
So, religions have forever tried to control the nature of family, the relations between men and women, divorce, adoptions, you name them. What Francis is doing is putting human needs above restrictive sexual theology. Why shouldn't divorced people take Communion? And is it better to spread AIDS than to use contraception? Religion, as the term indicates, deals with the ties that bind people. Theology is human speculation about the unknown.
as the Te Deum soars above: "Tosca, you make me forget God".
So, religions have forever tried to control the nature of family, the relations between men and women, divorce, adoptions, you name them. What Francis is doing is putting human needs above restrictive sexual theology. Why shouldn't divorced people take Communion? And is it better to spread AIDS than to use contraception? Religion, as the term indicates, deals with the ties that bind people. Theology is human speculation about the unknown.
18
The fact is that religion has always feared human sexuality because it is the strongest rival to it.
-------------------------
Oh, really? That's why Communism and Socialism revile organized religion, esp. the Catholics, because it prevents them from having more sex, and more Lust. How perceptive.
-------------------------
Oh, really? That's why Communism and Socialism revile organized religion, esp. the Catholics, because it prevents them from having more sex, and more Lust. How perceptive.
You want an analogy, Mr. Douthat?
How about John Paul II is like Comey. John Paul II knew about the pedophile scandal within the Catholic Church and what did he do? Nothing.
That scandal continues. Just a few days ago there was a report that 7% of Catholic priests in Australia abused thousands of children for decades, all the way up to 2015. The worst was the order of the St John of God Brothers, where a staggering 40% of religious brothers are believed to have abused children:
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/feb/06/4444-victims-exte...
This to me is the most heinous thing that has ever occurred in the Catholic Church. It's massive, worldwide, cultural to the institution.
How the Catholic Church can continue to survive this without any real reckoning is beyond the pale.
How about John Paul II is like Comey. John Paul II knew about the pedophile scandal within the Catholic Church and what did he do? Nothing.
That scandal continues. Just a few days ago there was a report that 7% of Catholic priests in Australia abused thousands of children for decades, all the way up to 2015. The worst was the order of the St John of God Brothers, where a staggering 40% of religious brothers are believed to have abused children:
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/feb/06/4444-victims-exte...
This to me is the most heinous thing that has ever occurred in the Catholic Church. It's massive, worldwide, cultural to the institution.
How the Catholic Church can continue to survive this without any real reckoning is beyond the pale.
41
John Paul II in the Vatican knew nothing of the sex scandal until the American Bishops Conference chose to apprise him of it. He was too busy helping Lech Walensa tear down the Berlin Wall to obsess over yet another American sex scandal.
2
V--Also, his predecessors knew about these things, and helped the Nazis murder Jews and other "non-believers." Hypocrisy, Incorporated, all in the name of power and money.
1
Bannon-Burke is no theiry. There are facts revealing their communications. And there are facts showing their common beliefs and their common conservatism. This common conservatism has as its goal a totalitarian suppression of people and their beliefs and the use of power over the people to suppress. Pope Francis is no radical. He embodies the beliefs of Catholics reaching back to Jesus Christ.
A radical pope or a Christ-like Pope, one and the same. Finally for Catholics a true Christian.
Mr Douthat, but I consider Pope Francis a breath of fresh air, a man who models himself after Jesus, and who takes the teachings of Jesus seriously. How do you consider that radical?
Matthew 22:36-40 tells us that in answer to the question of what is the greatest commandment Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Seems to me like that is the advice that Pope Francis is following.
Matthew 22:36-40 tells us that in answer to the question of what is the greatest commandment Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Seems to me like that is the advice that Pope Francis is following.
31
We don't need to wonder, "what would Jesus do?" The gospels tell us that he cared for the needy, fed the hungry, and clothed the naked. He ran the merchants and bankers out of the temple and he chastised the ruling priests and thinkers.
Exactly the opposite of what the modern American evangelical christian is doing.
Exactly the opposite of what the modern American evangelical christian is doing.
3
Jesus was a radical for sure, and that's why the establishment of the time crucified him. To act on his message is still radical today, but that is what we are called to do. John Paul II did know of the clergy abuse, and did virtually nothing, and the only reason I can imagine is that his own health was so poor that he wasn't able to deal with such a huge problem in his weakened state. But that does not excuse him or the Church either. The horror of that period continues. The radical message of Jesus also continues and we should be holding the Church to that standard, as radical as it is, as the rich get richer and the poor get poorer all over the world. That calls for a radical solution! So Francis is a breath of fresh air, as he is a Pope who actually is trying to follow Jesus and act on his message.
1
As a recovering Catholic who sees the organization as misogyist, corrupt and at best self serving and who sees the downward trend in vocations and people in the pews as very positive.
I want Douthat and Burke to be the true faces of the church for they will accelerate pushing the insitution on to the dust heap of history.i
Francis has slowed that decline down and given false hope to those who believe the church is capable of change.
I want Burke as pope.
I want Douthat and Burke to be the true faces of the church for they will accelerate pushing the insitution on to the dust heap of history.i
Francis has slowed that decline down and given false hope to those who believe the church is capable of change.
I want Burke as pope.
12
If it's misogynist, why are over 40% of about 1300 Catholic saints...... women? Find a better slander.
2
I see your point Edward Blau, but be careful what you wish for. There are so many right wing demigods emerging here and in Europe. The last thing we need is another Nazi collaborator like Pope Pius XII. He enabled Hitler and Mussolini. Things might have gone differently if a more decent man had been pope.
"The Bannon-Burke link consists of a friendly 2014 meeting, a few secondary connections and some broad commonalities between their respective worldviews — both in their way reactionary, nostalgic for the civilizational confidence of the Western or Catholic past."
That's it? One meeting in 2014, secondary connections, whatever they are, broad commonalities? Anyway, a Bannon-Burke link, though unlikely, is not the same as a Trump-Pope Francis link which exists only in your overworked imagination. I once came down an elevator with the late Roberto Clemente. That doesn't mean I can hit major league pitching.
That's it? One meeting in 2014, secondary connections, whatever they are, broad commonalities? Anyway, a Bannon-Burke link, though unlikely, is not the same as a Trump-Pope Francis link which exists only in your overworked imagination. I once came down an elevator with the late Roberto Clemente. That doesn't mean I can hit major league pitching.
9
What a stretch of the imagination this article is. If you really want to make comparisons, try comparing Trump to the first 8 episodes of Jude Law's "Young Pope."
11
What I read in Mr. Douthat's piece that if you're guy is calling the shots, you are all for it. If he isn't your guy, it is all bad.
16
DOUTHAT Has my head spinning with his whirlwind description of political right extremists and entanglement with sympathetic Catholics of the same stripe. The question it raises to me is, How many troglodytes can dance on the tip of Ross's pen? He's really pulled out all of the stops with this one. When you're up against a deadline and have a hammer, all problems look like nails. I think of the video I saw of Francis greeting one of his former male students who is married to a man. Francis welcomed both of them, along with the student's aunt, embracing all of them. How illiberal! Comparing Bannon with anyone or anything else is an exercise in passing off funhouse mirrors as a clear perspective. Bannon is a loose cannon. He's functioned as the nonexistent Presidential Security Council, filling Trump's vacant head with lots of garbage. Imagine causing all that pain to blameless adherents of Islam and other undocumented residents. Then to have Trump verbally abusing the Judiciary, its judges and findings of law! Trump's actions are NOWHERE on the political spectrum. I refuse to dignify Trump's demented ravings as deserving a place among any sort of coherent, reasoned political discourse. Trump is going down. I predict that he will resign within a few months, forced from office in disgrace. Pope Francis will continue to be compassionate and caring. The two could not be more different: the former a monster and the latter a true humanitarian.
30
If only your prediction for Trump's future truly does happen! Your comments are really well stated. Pope Francis is the voice of reason and compassion that the world needs so desperately right now. Trump and his ilk are the voices of chaos and hysteria.
2
Wonderful response. Could not have said it better.
1
"I predict that he will resign within a few months, forced from office in disgrace. Pope Francis will continue to be compassionate and caring." From your mouth to, er, God's ears. Of course then we would get President Pence, who, like Ross, is a true believer in traditional Catholic positions against feminism, birth control, abortion, LGBT rights and sex outside of marriage. Interestingly, they came to their current religious convictions in reverse order. Pence was raised as a traditional Catholic and then was 'born again' during his college years, calling himself an Evangelical Christian, something that didn't exist until the late '70s, before which Protestant evangelicals and Catholics had long been at loggerheads. As best as I have found out, Ross was basically unchurched as a youth. Then is his late teens, his mother, plagued by severe allergies, dragged the family into a 'born again' megachurch led by a faith healer in hopes that she would/could be healed. Ross then converted to his ongoing traditional Catholicism a few years later and has been inveighing against the same modern secular phenomena as Pence. The only difference between them on these issues is that Ross merely writes about them while Pence would like to impose them on us non-believers and is now a heartbeat away from trying to do so. Watch what you pray for (DT resigning), you may get it. On the other hand, at least Pence is less likely to bumble our way into more wars of nuclear Armageddon.
Mr Douthat, I really wish your columns were a part of the religion section and not the politics section. And there's the difference between us: I believe in the separation of church and state. I'm not at all sure you do.
19
You're too kind. Douthat has made a career of proclaiming (frequently in very turgid discussions of some theological minutia from a millennium ago) that he is actually appalled by the very notion of a separation of church and state.
2
a "radical pope." I guess that's a good thing, as Jesus wasn't exactly a company man, either. Ross, how about "Christian pope"? That would more accurately capture the man.
32
And here I thought the most apt comparison for the Bannon-Burke connection wasn't with Pope Francis cast in the Trump role, but with Pius XII and his cozy relationship with Nazis in the 1930s. My bad!
21
Douthat only became a catholic as an adult, so he is unfamiliar with history and willing to jump on the bandwagon of hating this pope because Douthat's version of Catholicism has more in common with evangelic Christianity than Catholicism.
4
The comparison between Pope Francis and Trump is frankly obscene. A fine example of rational thinking ("this, then that") gone crazy. Have you nothing better to do with your time––and ours––than to wake up each morning and construct apologies for these gangsters? What will take to shake you out of your role as a professional conservative?
25
I disagree that Pope Francis 'is forging tomorrow's Catholic right.' I see this Pope as saving the Catholic Church from irrelevance!
The only problem with Mr. Douthat referring to Pope Francis as a leftist radical is that Jesus was a leftist radical. Both have/had the same view of the world: take care of the poor, do not be greedy and love all. Oh, so "radical".
24
You nailed it!
I would never go so far as to suggest that there would be a Bannon-Burke alliance. C'mon, Ross, do you think anyone who is thoughtful is that naive? To posit such a claim seems to be a red herring.
Truly, there is a sense of affinity or sense of shared nostalgia between the two..that they are kindred spirits is not disputable. How they exercise that shared sense of nostalgia will be acted out quite differently; after all, Burke is part of the big Catholic machine, a religious institution that is global in reach, across linguistic and philosophic boundaries in ways that America and Americans can barely comprehend (not that the Vatican fully gets it either); Bannon is part of the American machine, which has very different strategic aims (we are not into saving souls, are we? or making legal determinations on the legitimation of moral values?) and very different bases from which it moves and shakes in the world. The Vatican works to be a spiritual and social (those nasty things called "works") guide and powerhouse; Washington is a spiritual vacuum and works to make our country a stable, economic powerhouse that also uses socialization and acculturation to leverage our way of life.
More thoughtful than Hannity here, but couched within an argument as simple as the ones that he spins daily (be careful of the web you help weave).
Pax.
Truly, there is a sense of affinity or sense of shared nostalgia between the two..that they are kindred spirits is not disputable. How they exercise that shared sense of nostalgia will be acted out quite differently; after all, Burke is part of the big Catholic machine, a religious institution that is global in reach, across linguistic and philosophic boundaries in ways that America and Americans can barely comprehend (not that the Vatican fully gets it either); Bannon is part of the American machine, which has very different strategic aims (we are not into saving souls, are we? or making legal determinations on the legitimation of moral values?) and very different bases from which it moves and shakes in the world. The Vatican works to be a spiritual and social (those nasty things called "works") guide and powerhouse; Washington is a spiritual vacuum and works to make our country a stable, economic powerhouse that also uses socialization and acculturation to leverage our way of life.
More thoughtful than Hannity here, but couched within an argument as simple as the ones that he spins daily (be careful of the web you help weave).
Pax.
4
This idea that it is in the center where political wisdom always lies is incomprehensible to me. It's incomprehensibility is embodied in the equation of 45 with Francis. Instead of looking at a spectrum or a mirror, maybe you should look at actual substance, Mr. Douthat. Let's talk about, for example, ways in which reconsideration of Catholic policy on divorce and remarriage in 2017 is anything like the incoherent "disruption" of the Trumpistas. They are nothing alike, and it is when you begin to actually look at that type of substance (service, compassion, a focus on poverty) that the left/center/right spectrum becomes an absurdity.
5
As a practicing Catholic.....what are you talking about?? Way off base on the Pope and the reaction by Catholics worldwide to this humble beloved man as we complete the year of mercy. Can't put Trump and Francis in the same sentence!
Is this a lame attempt at normalizing this amoral incompetent current occupant of the White House??
Is this a lame attempt at normalizing this amoral incompetent current occupant of the White House??
19
Well said. I view this editorial as the thoughts of someone who is too consumed with politics (both within and outside of the Church) to see the big picture.
1
Comparing Pope Francis to Donald Trump is asinine.
16
You continue to amaze. On a day when the head of Special Ops said that the US Government, at war, is in turmoil, when the head of National Sexcurity is forced to resign in disgrace, when there are credible reports that Trump's staff was in communications with Russian operatives during the campaign, whom do you decide to impugn, the man who has stood for the immigrant, the weak and the underprivileged of the world, instead of your attacking the man whom YOUR Republican Party chose to be the President ? Who is in denial here ? Your concern for our Catholic Church is totally misplaced. Pope Francis has inspired Catholics and non-Catholics throughout the world, but you continue to launch your personal crusade against him and the Christ-like values he stands for, all at the same time when our country is reeling from the most disgraceful man to inhabit the White House.
18
It would take a reactionary ideologue like you, Mr. Douthat, to spin and attempt to sustain a moral equivalency between the Pope and Donald J. Trump.
9
The commonalities are simple:
Obama and Pope John Paul II see human freedom as the key to dialing down fascism.
Bannon-Burke see liberalism as opening the door to those would see them sidelined and their expansionist power-cravings and accompanying rigidity.
The eternal struggle for love on the one hand and control on the other.
Obama and Pope John Paul II see human freedom as the key to dialing down fascism.
Bannon-Burke see liberalism as opening the door to those would see them sidelined and their expansionist power-cravings and accompanying rigidity.
The eternal struggle for love on the one hand and control on the other.
7
PS, Donald: I live and vote in NH. I saw nary a license plate bearing "Massachusetts" in the parking lot of my assigned polling station. In addition, the farmer who lives next to me has been a poll monitor almost since the day he came home from war. He has never seen any either.
Where did you serve, Donald? Rikers Island Correctional Center?
Where did you serve, Donald? Rikers Island Correctional Center?
1
You really had to twist yourself into a pretzel for this one. However, lately that is the only thing you're left with. Open your mind.
This article is written from the fringe right perspective. Pope Francis is hardly shattering things. Are there women priests? Is the church changing its Theology? No! And only fringe right wing theologians are worried. Most theologians wish he would change the church and faster. The model Pope Francis uses is Jesus. He asks if we are faithful; to the teachings of Jesus. The new Catholic right puts John Paul II at the center and occasionally mentions Jesus (if he agrees with them).
Pope Francis is trying to bring the church in line with the teachings of Jesus and the Gospels- the foundation of Christianity. While Trump is trying to separate our country from its Constitution and its observed rule of law- the foundations of The USA. There is no comparison. The article tries but misses.
Pope Francis is trying to bring the church in line with the teachings of Jesus and the Gospels- the foundation of Christianity. While Trump is trying to separate our country from its Constitution and its observed rule of law- the foundations of The USA. There is no comparison. The article tries but misses.
10
Today's Douthat column is bizarre to be sure. However, to call Ross "fringe right" is itself extreme, for Ross is only remotely "fringe right" where certain hobby horses of contemporary right wing orthodox Catholics are concerned and otherwise provides instructive moderate conservative perspective ( "moderate conservative" at least for these sorry times).
1
As a serious Catholic I believe Pope Francis was raised up by God at this time in the history of salvation, not to disturb Cardinal Burkes' sleep, but to give those of us who want live out the Incarnation as vividly as possible, and not in a Catholic golden bubble, the ways and means to do so. There is an immense amount of difference between a 'disrupter' like DJT, and a leader who is steering 'Peter's bark' through the increasing choppy world waters. Saint Pope John XXIII, Saint Pope John Paul II, and Pope Benedict solidified, and made plain our core of being. Now, Francis is urging us to bring the Incarnation into the world. There has been a cosmic shift, and one can close oneself up in a (gilded) fortress, or one can open up to a new relationship with the world. If we are called by Christ Jesus to be in the world, but not of the world then we cannot be afraid of the world. Pope Francis is teaching and modeling how not to be afraid, and not to flee to the world's hideouts. I much prefer Francis' simple and direct approach to the hyper-Catholic's over-embroidered cope of compliance. Pax, jb.
12
Dothat has a polarized view of most stuff, from the sweet Pope to the nutbar President, so what's he do? He blames "populism and polarization".
I call that beig hard on himself. Just ask this: Is the Church cozying up to Russia? Is Trump as socially and factually as up-to-date as the Pope? Is a "false equivalency" paranoiac fantasy? Is black white, purple just a shade of red?
And doesn't drivel deserve dismissal and perhaps quiet laughter?
Bannon admires Italy's mist infamous ultra-fascist and sees a chaos ahead. The Pope, otoh, apparently admires the kind words of Christ and sees tolerance and knowledge as alive and growing.
And Douthat sees Right a-borning. Back to the future, the Church Militant and Unadaptable. Stop those noisy wheels of tolerance and progress. Douthat once more shows us the blighted eye of the true believer, championing the control of tomorrow by yesteryear.
I call that beig hard on himself. Just ask this: Is the Church cozying up to Russia? Is Trump as socially and factually as up-to-date as the Pope? Is a "false equivalency" paranoiac fantasy? Is black white, purple just a shade of red?
And doesn't drivel deserve dismissal and perhaps quiet laughter?
Bannon admires Italy's mist infamous ultra-fascist and sees a chaos ahead. The Pope, otoh, apparently admires the kind words of Christ and sees tolerance and knowledge as alive and growing.
And Douthat sees Right a-borning. Back to the future, the Church Militant and Unadaptable. Stop those noisy wheels of tolerance and progress. Douthat once more shows us the blighted eye of the true believer, championing the control of tomorrow by yesteryear.
3
Something tells me that if Jesus were to return today Ross would offer much the same critique of him as he does of Pope Francis. The Pope is following the example set by Jesus, while Ross is simply a blind follower of "Church" doctrine established by venal, corrupt men like Cardinal Burke. Sad.
5
Is there no issue for Mr. Dohut to address other than the Catholic church, and their role in US world affairs? Is there nothing else for a times editorialist to dedicate his time to then more invective about the Roman Church and its leader? I am amazed that there is no other world religion that the NY Times feels they could comment on in this space when it comes to international affairs and the United States. If Mr. Dohut is to discuss only religion and US affairs in his column, where is the balanced reporting of the US Jewish relations of the Two state system? Where is the commentary about Turkey and their laws about Muslim Religious Law and US policy? Where are the discussions about any of the hundreds of other world religions and their effect on US world relations? Why must we be subjected to a constant barrage of invective and one sided commentary about the Roman Catholic church rather than a balanced reporting of world religious affairs expressed in a true open editorial forum? How about some honest reporting about other world religions and getting off the conservative Catholic Church payroll? I thought the times was an independent paper with no religious affiliation?
3
Please Douthat, you are the consummate apologist for a Church hierarchy composed of conservative white men that has been obsessed with sexuality and pelvic issues for decades. What Francis has done is to say enough already--be shepherds, be pastors. Guide the faithful, don't browbeat them with doctrine and listen to what they are saying and experiencing. Maybe the Church will learn something.
3
Honestly, Ross, you must be very sore after writing this column. The leaps (of faith?) and shapes you've had to twist yourself into in order to produce these head-scratching arguments must have been exhausting. Get some rest.
6
Bannon, Burke, Trump, Francis, et al. You forget some nomes, Mr. Douthat: the Vatican II theologians and Chardin and, yes, the Holy Spirit. In the meantime, in spite of entrenched, mean conservatism in the church, there is a spiraling upward, a constantly spiraling upward toward the Omega point. We are evolving, Mr. Douthat, even though many, many people are getting hurt in the obsessive right-wing of one or the other: refugees in politics and rejected penitents in the church. Someday, through the Spirit, "all will be well and all will be well and all manner of thing will be well." St. Juliana
2
Shades of Tiehard de Chardin !
The comparison of political and religious unhappiness based on loyalties to different ideals of the core identity of the United States and of the Catholic Church is apt. What is suspect is Douthat's version of the ideal in each case and of what counts as a falling away.
Pope Francis has reoriented a church which was turning in on itself back towards the outside world which needs it. The big Trump - Catholic story you should be writing is why such a large proportion of Catholic laity voted for Mr Trump and his message of hate, fear and meanness, and through what mechanism did they reconcile that with their conscience?
8
Yeah, political action sparks reaction in a "hydraulic sense" but overall the comparison is something of a stretch.
So "The Young Pope" is not just weird, entertaining television, it's a potential future for the Vatican?
Conservative Catholics criticize the Pope's style (here called "Trumpian"), but his substance is decidedly and irreproachably Christian, while Trump is about as un-Christian as you can get.
7
I think it's obvious that Burke and Bannon are kindred spirits: each wants to make his institution "great again." On the other hand, Pope Francis and President Trump are polar opposites! Do you think any of Trump's opponents will ever have the opportunity to criticize him for slipping an unconstitutional executive order in a footnote?
Douthat is incorrigible, repeatedly denying that there really is no epic Francis-Burke struggle in the Vatican, then more or less describing just such a struggle in epic terms - a bad case of apophasis if I ever saw one. He is clearly positioning Francis as a "radical" as equally dangerous as Trump, and trying to advance his own agenda as a "conservative" Catholic by cleverly comparing apples to rotting oranges.
7
The assessment of papal politics aside (I'm wholly ignorant of it) it's interesting to make distinctions between the political dynamics in itself, the makeup of various factions, and their role in the dynamics.
One difference is that a solid majority of Roman Catholics did not vote against making Francis Pope.
5
People unfamiliar with Vatican reportage may not realize that Ross Douthat here relies too heavily for his depiction of Pope Francis on Sandro Magister (the top Vaticanista under the previous pontificate who now channels narratives preferred by those formerly in greater power) and his confreres.
6
What a reach to draw these kinds of connections, just as it was a reach for your colleague connecting Bannon to Burke et al. This was painful to read because the lines you draw and attempt to connect don't seem to exist at all, not to mention how ludicrous it is to focus on this topic out of all the possible current options of American politics and Catholicism.
4
I love to read Ross's column, because I know that at the end of the twisted logic I will get to read the Comments, that usually shred it into a million pieces. As a former Catholic I can still feel the press of conservative theology in his words.
7
Jesus was a radical. Didn't he something to say to the Pharisees?
5
Ross once again betrays his youth and inexperience. I remember days when the biggest Republican fear was the Pope would run the White House.
The tables have turned don't you think?
The tables have turned don't you think?
3
Francis chose his name as Pope to show his intention to return the church to it's true mission of charity, mercy & forgiveness. The real difference that makes this analogy of Pope & president fail is that Francis is 100% sincere & well intentioned while all the politicians in this discussion are cynical & self serving mostly liars & opportunists. Even Francis' critics, while cynical about the human condition, really believe in their position. While the recent election has shown that only power counts in Washington. Rules & tradition mean nothing to the new Conservatives if they get in their way.
4
Once more, Ross, you show us you care more for dogma than you do for people and their suffering, which explains your animosity towards Pope Francis. He has the audacity to preach the gospel of Jesus, which should be the foundation of the Church, not the oppressive rules designed to control people and hold onto power. Comparing this principled man to Trump requires a complete suspension of disbelief. One represents the forces of darkness, the other the forces of light. I'll let you guess which is which.
6
Cardinal Burke is no Bernie Sanders!
3
No offense but your column illustrates to me a deep misunderstanding of Christianity and Catholicism.
10
There is a faction that doesn't like popes such as Francis and John, the two most like Jesus in my lifetime that stretches back to Pius XII. There certainly was a faction that didn't like Jesus and his message of the law of love -- mercy, judging not, forgiveness and caring for the poor-- a faction similar to today's faction that likes a hard, cold legalism and dislikes most of what Jesus taught.
5
Comparing Pope Francis to 45: Now that's deplorable!
6
There's probably going to be a DaVinci Code sequel in here somewhere...
2
I am not Catholic, but, the politics in this church, are so petty in comparison to the message Jesus both modeled and told his followers. These debates over divorce, remarriage, whether women can be priests, and the total strangeness of celibacy represent what happens to a religion when it becomes institutionalized. Again, I am no theologian, but in looking at what Pope Francis has said and modeled I feel he is closer to the message Jesus delivered than to Cardinal Burke's concerns with violations of canon law.
Hmmm, seems conservatives will support the infallibility of conservative popes but not liberal ones. If that's not moral relativism, don't know what is.
4
..." a shatterer of norms, a disregarder of traditions, an insult-heavy rhetorician, a pontiff impatient with the strictures of church law and inclined to govern by decree when existing rules and structures resist his will."
Your words, Ross, to describe the Pope are an equally good description of Jesus who taught us that it's not the letter of the Law that matters its the Spirit of the Law. Whether driving out the money changers or touching/comforting the unclean or eating with Gentiles, Jesus taught that loving God and our neighbor is what counts. Pope Francis is the image of Jesus in our time which is where we all live, not in the past. To paraphrase GK Chesterton,"Christianity has not failed, it simply has never been tried". Let's give the Pope a chance to see if Christianity works.
Your words, Ross, to describe the Pope are an equally good description of Jesus who taught us that it's not the letter of the Law that matters its the Spirit of the Law. Whether driving out the money changers or touching/comforting the unclean or eating with Gentiles, Jesus taught that loving God and our neighbor is what counts. Pope Francis is the image of Jesus in our time which is where we all live, not in the past. To paraphrase GK Chesterton,"Christianity has not failed, it simply has never been tried". Let's give the Pope a chance to see if Christianity works.
5
This is such a stretch!
5
Pope Francis is an "insult-heavy rhetorician"? I must have missed that encyclical.
8
It is indeed rare and wonderful to have a pope who names himself after Francis of Assisi and seeks to emulate Jesus rather than following peculiar Catholic dogmas that often have little to do with the teachings of Jesus at all.
6
Thank god for the reformation
Ross, please take one look at photos of Burke's 24-foot long Cappa Magna, carried by obsequious priests, his matching gloves, ridiculous galero hat, and tell me he is the new, courageous leader of young "Post-Vatican II" Catholics. I think you've been hitting the altar wine a bit too hard. Please read about Pope Francis' personal experience with the brutally poor for years in the Argentine slums, and tell me whose "radical message" is more like that of Jesus.
7
A side note on Mr. Douthat's passing reference to Bernie Sanders as a "radical." It is still amazing to me that people (usually those on the right) can see someone as "radical" who supports the interests of ordinary citizens and their freedom and economic well-being, and protests against the submerging of citizens' rights by the enormous power of large corporations in the US. If that's radical, then you'd have to see the Founding Fathers as radical.
4
Pope Francis' "radicalism" is in trying his best to live out the mandates of the Gospel. What you miss is that Jesus was, in fact, radical. "Love your enemies" is just as radical today as it was in Jesus' time. Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, welcome the stranger- -all Gospel mandates that, yes, are quite radical. But they are Gospel mandates for conservative Christians as well as liberal Christians.
4
This column is not about Pope Francis and Donald Trump—it is about Ross' contortions to justify his own antipathies. Francis is not radically challenging Church doctrines, but Church manners. Trump is only about his own narcissism, not any ideology or ideas, much less deep feelings. The differences between the two men are far more significant than any similarities between their political contexts.
6
Trump and the Pope believe in myths that resonate with their own worldview and reject the myths others have created for their own religions both civil and theistic. Myths are just stories, narratives/pictures/videos supported by and transmitted by players/actors they aren't real obviously there is no analyzable evidence but they prompt meaning both social and emotional which then influences politics and economics. The ignorant masses who are manipulated really do believe and are on board for the whatever war their handlers have set in motion.
if god were american she would be smarter
2
What an outrageous scoundrel to reach out to Burke, a bastion of the hierarchy that persists in protecting pedophiles, to malign the Pope. Kellyanne has nothing over Ross's alternative facts.
4
Give me a thousand like Pope Francis to no Bannons or Trumps.
5
Let's not give him an "era" quite yet. It's my fervent hope that it will be only an "interlude" or, even better, a "moment."
I also do not understand the "logic" here. My understanding of the current pope's stance is that it is rooted in principles of social justice, which, indeed, is revolutionary and "leftist" in the Catholic church administration and in the current American government. As for the Bannon-Burke motif, I can agree that insanity and hypocrisy don't really go together, as the "left hand has to know what the right hand is doing" in enacting hypocritical acts, but the alliance and attraction of the two, due to power, greed, and lack of concern for the people, does ring true.
Pope Francis is the delight of the so-called progressives in our country who have latched on to his every word which supports their political agenda and well before Mr. Trump's presidency. Pope Francis's entire papacy is structured against the background of liberation theology and the many, I am sure, unsavory American- backed operations which occurred in Latin America which he observed while he was in Argentina. He despises American capitalism and seems to forget that Americans of all or no faiths are the most generous and caring people in the world.
Francis has appointed bishops who subscribe to his way of thinking i.e. liberal, supportive of illegal immigration, so-called progressive in their thinking to major dioceses within our country in order to bring his position to the management and structure of those dioceses. Pope Francis's statements-- and it seems as though he has one on everything -- sadly, not unlike Mr. Trump in many ways-- knows his words will be quickly used to substantiate a liberal political agenda. We have only to regard how his words have been cited by the climate change advocates, the illegal immigration proponents,etc. while ignoring many of his statements on pro-life or abortions issues. Donald Trump "promised to drain the swamp." It is time for Francis to be shepherd as opposed to politician and tend to the many hurting Catholics who have felt abandoned by the church, who have left the church and are continuing to do so.
Francis has appointed bishops who subscribe to his way of thinking i.e. liberal, supportive of illegal immigration, so-called progressive in their thinking to major dioceses within our country in order to bring his position to the management and structure of those dioceses. Pope Francis's statements-- and it seems as though he has one on everything -- sadly, not unlike Mr. Trump in many ways-- knows his words will be quickly used to substantiate a liberal political agenda. We have only to regard how his words have been cited by the climate change advocates, the illegal immigration proponents,etc. while ignoring many of his statements on pro-life or abortions issues. Donald Trump "promised to drain the swamp." It is time for Francis to be shepherd as opposed to politician and tend to the many hurting Catholics who have felt abandoned by the church, who have left the church and are continuing to do so.
1
So JPII embraced the reforms of Vatican II? News to me...whatever happened to collegiality? JPII was an autocrat and had no interest in sharing power with his bishops.
1
Pope Francis is tilling the inclusive, compassionate soil of Jesus' teaching rather than the exclusive, judgmental soil of the Church. Power to him.
2
This piece is poorly reasoned and intellectually dishonest.
4
It's "silly" to form an analogy, and yet you do.
3
You obviously have not watched Mr. Bannons movies!
This is one of the most strained op-ed essays I've read in a long time. Strained as in, grasping at straws. When you have to state at least 3 times during an argument, that the Bannon-Burke alliance (comparison) is a conspiracy theory, conspiratorial nonsense, whatever - that's a sign the whole subject is not worth the brain time and the writing time in the first place.
5
Let me get this straight. According to traditionalists (asserting the traditions of which centuries of the past 2,000 years?), the Pope's authority is absolute. This Pope has so far done nothing to reverse core doctrines. He has implicitly recognized the current understanding that gays are born, not made, and that they are people as good, or bad, as anyone else. He has accepted that not every marriage is made in heaven and that people should be able to divorce ill-chosen partners without having to divorce the Church. Has he announced that you can now hate your enemies, harm your neighbor, and ignore God? Until he does that, what are the traditionalists whining about?
All institutions need dramatic change from time to time. Such it is with Francis and the Church. Such it is with Trump and the US political bureaucracy. Interesting times...
For a Republican, considering their feverish desire to eliminate bureaucracy in government, Douthat seems intent on securing the same within the Vatican. That treacherous organization, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul & it's public face, the St. Vincent de Paul Thrift Stores must really irk Douthat as he must surely be aware of incidents in it's founding in 19th century France, including the influence of Socialists.
So keep donating your used copies of Bob Bennet & Glen Beck titles in order to educate & provide motivation to those of lower economic standing, Douthat. No one is asking you to sell your desk.
So keep donating your used copies of Bob Bennet & Glen Beck titles in order to educate & provide motivation to those of lower economic standing, Douthat. No one is asking you to sell your desk.
2
"Religion does three things quite effectively: Divides people, controls people. Deludes people." ~ Carlespie Mary ALice McKinney
1
a younger catholic right? certainly not visible in church. in fact young catholics do not seem to exist.
1
I so wish deadly conspiracies would stay on the movie screen and stop walking around in broad daylight scaring the heck out of me. Maybe the world was always this nutty a place, but just didn't get well described in the press.
Maybe human being just aren't capable of evolving to a peaceful, loving collection of friends living in harmony and willing to see the other person's needs as important.
Hugh Massengill, Eugene Oregon
Maybe human being just aren't capable of evolving to a peaceful, loving collection of friends living in harmony and willing to see the other person's needs as important.
Hugh Massengill, Eugene Oregon
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
It's unforgivable to compare Pope Francis to The Donald--in so many levels. Pope Francis has had a career in the Church (as well as a lifetime of helping the community) even if Mr. Douthat disagrees with his theology. Donald, who won the election to his surprise and to ours, never had any previous experience in government.
1
Ross, Trump is not a populist, that was a campaign trick.
Look at cabinet and appointees, all corporatists.
The swamp is filled and your piece is just misdirection.
Look at cabinet and appointees, all corporatists.
The swamp is filled and your piece is just misdirection.
1
Ross is cherry picking facts to make his argument. Pope Francis was very clear in his statement that women would never be priests. He is FAR from the radical force Ross presents him to be. This is not a criticism of Pope Francis, but of Ross.
I thought Francis was the Vicar of Christ. He is simply following Christ's teaching: "Feed my lambs . . . look after my sheep" (John 21: 16-17). Yes, he's different from Pope Benedict, but the political parallels, even within modern Catholicism, are a real stretch.
3
Unworthy of Douthat's more reliable conservative arguments. Catholic doctrine is retrograde in many respects, and opposed to prevailing contemporary values, e.g. divorce, remarriage, abortion, woman priests. Francis' reforms are long overdue. Let's wish him Godspeed.
1
As our President would tweet: "Sad!" So you start with the correct recognition that the analogy between leadership of the Catholic Church and US politics is facile and ultimately unilluminating because of the significant differences in the institutions. Then, you dive right in. Ross, you position yourself as an observer, but you so clearly have a dog in the fight -- you are threatened by a Pontiff who recognizes the limitations of the Church's Scribes and Pharisees. Faced with an moribund bureaucracy, Pope Francis is going back to first Christian principles -- love, compassion, mercy and forgiveness. You would likewise encourage your political conservative compatriots to do the same -- go back to first principles of small government, individual liberty, robust protection of democracy at home and abroad.
1
You have made an argument that is so illogical and contorted that it does not merit comparison or comment. We know Cardinal Burke. We know Pope Francis. Study actions and words of each.
3
The move by Pope Francis to help the Catholic Church more reflect the teachings of Jesus after the scandals of child abuse and cover ups and implied money-laundering by the Vatican bank probably did much the save that church. Many of the faithful had left or were leaving for other churches or no church at all. In his own lifestyle, Pope Francis reflects the real radical teachings of Jesus.
1
One minor difference between Pope Francis and trump. Can you guess what it is? Something about good and evil, or maybe unity and division.
2
In Rome it is "church militant" – a term that includes all who are still breathing. It confers respect on the potential of all people, regardless of past sins or religious denomination, to enter heaven.
The Burke - Bannon comparison is apt for men willing to tackle intellectual hot button issues that Pope Francis and Donald Trump don’t mind simmering a bit. Unlike Ross Douthat, Francis knows the difference between annulment and divorce. A sacramental marriage is either formed or it is not and an annulment changes nothing between a man and woman. A declaration of annulment simply puts a symbolic wall around the first union and allows a fresh new attempt at forming a second marriage without fear that a second church wedding is an act of adultery.
Many religions have abandoned attempts to control remarriage just as many countries have abandoned control over their boarders. The wall between Mexico and the United States is symbolic of the need for comprehensive immigration rules that will be enforced. Most illegal residents simply overstay their visa or temporary work permit making a physical wall rather archaic.
A catholic with a civil divorce is not barred from the sacraments. Immigrants who overstay their visa are not rounded up for deportation. Workable rules require mercy and great deference to children who are too often innocent victims of rules and procedures that harm families. I have a pretty good idea what Jesus would do.
The Burke - Bannon comparison is apt for men willing to tackle intellectual hot button issues that Pope Francis and Donald Trump don’t mind simmering a bit. Unlike Ross Douthat, Francis knows the difference between annulment and divorce. A sacramental marriage is either formed or it is not and an annulment changes nothing between a man and woman. A declaration of annulment simply puts a symbolic wall around the first union and allows a fresh new attempt at forming a second marriage without fear that a second church wedding is an act of adultery.
Many religions have abandoned attempts to control remarriage just as many countries have abandoned control over their boarders. The wall between Mexico and the United States is symbolic of the need for comprehensive immigration rules that will be enforced. Most illegal residents simply overstay their visa or temporary work permit making a physical wall rather archaic.
A catholic with a civil divorce is not barred from the sacraments. Immigrants who overstay their visa are not rounded up for deportation. Workable rules require mercy and great deference to children who are too often innocent victims of rules and procedures that harm families. I have a pretty good idea what Jesus would do.
2
Now … WHAT the heck was all THAT?
I suppose that Trump and his crew have SO marginalized Pope Francis and his in the eyes of an astounded world and professional scribblers everywhere that SOME effort must be made to crank Francis back into the light and out of the shadows of irrelevancy. So … let’s compare Francis to Trump! That’s the ticket! Look at what Trump’s coattails did for congressional and state Republicans: imagine what they might do in an entire world going “ho, hum” about Roman Catholic intrigues!
Dropping Trumpian references doesn’t make this Catholic Kabuki any more relevant to the 6.3 billion humans on this third rock who AREN’T Roman Catholic, or even to 80% or more of the 1.2 billion “Roman Catholics” who couldn’t care less about the soap-opera stage inhabited for the present by Pope Francis and Cardinal Burke.
But Ross's chutzpah did entertain.
I suppose that Trump and his crew have SO marginalized Pope Francis and his in the eyes of an astounded world and professional scribblers everywhere that SOME effort must be made to crank Francis back into the light and out of the shadows of irrelevancy. So … let’s compare Francis to Trump! That’s the ticket! Look at what Trump’s coattails did for congressional and state Republicans: imagine what they might do in an entire world going “ho, hum” about Roman Catholic intrigues!
Dropping Trumpian references doesn’t make this Catholic Kabuki any more relevant to the 6.3 billion humans on this third rock who AREN’T Roman Catholic, or even to 80% or more of the 1.2 billion “Roman Catholics” who couldn’t care less about the soap-opera stage inhabited for the present by Pope Francis and Cardinal Burke.
But Ross's chutzpah did entertain.
11
And, Mr. Luettgen, a variation on your closing words might be said of this and many other of your own frequent contributions here ... "But Richard's chutzpah did entertain ... up to a point, that is."
3
Richard, you've gone bonkers. Not every reference to "Trump" deserves your attention, and writing witless off-point snark just makes it clear what you are.
2
I know it's Wednesday (aka WeakColumnDay) but it's hilarious that this catholic arcana is what you choose to write about, and in a manner that STILL manages to vilify benevolence and actual Christ-like kindness/tolerance as some sort of affront to rabid reactionary policy proposals that ultimately benefit virtually no one.
#barf
#barf
93
Ross Douhat is the heretic not Pope Francis
what colossal colassal arrogance!
what colossal colassal arrogance!
45
This proves to be less about Bannon and Burke and transforms into another opportunity for you to attack the Pope on alleged "traditionalist" grounds. In your terms Ross that means defending neo-liberal patriarchy.
26
Here is my response to a priest's Sunday Mass sermon on aligning ourselves with the values of the new administration.
To the Archbishop and Cardinal of a major American city:
I enjoy listening to father's(name withheld) Mass service with the exception of his ultra conservative sermons that appear to endorse the policies and practices of the Trump administration. I believe in a strict separation of church and state and I am concerned when politics seep into our holy places of worship. I take issue with his comments about the women's march on the Saturday after the presidential inauguration. Women including my three daughters protested the misogynist remarks made by President Trump throughout his campaign. This was not a march singularly focused on abortion rights, but rather an outcry for respect of women. I further disagree with his statements that appear to support the travel ban against predominantly Muslim nations. I agree that we need to take care of our own people;however, I disagree that the travel ban will prevent hordes of terrorists, particularly radical Muslims, from entering our country. Where is his Christian sense of empathy and concern for the needs of the underclass and the forgotten, as well as all of God's children? Otherwise, I have no additional criticisms of this fine priest. I write in the Christian spirit of embracing diversity and serving the needs of humankind.
To the Archbishop and Cardinal of a major American city:
I enjoy listening to father's(name withheld) Mass service with the exception of his ultra conservative sermons that appear to endorse the policies and practices of the Trump administration. I believe in a strict separation of church and state and I am concerned when politics seep into our holy places of worship. I take issue with his comments about the women's march on the Saturday after the presidential inauguration. Women including my three daughters protested the misogynist remarks made by President Trump throughout his campaign. This was not a march singularly focused on abortion rights, but rather an outcry for respect of women. I further disagree with his statements that appear to support the travel ban against predominantly Muslim nations. I agree that we need to take care of our own people;however, I disagree that the travel ban will prevent hordes of terrorists, particularly radical Muslims, from entering our country. Where is his Christian sense of empathy and concern for the needs of the underclass and the forgotten, as well as all of God's children? Otherwise, I have no additional criticisms of this fine priest. I write in the Christian spirit of embracing diversity and serving the needs of humankind.
13
Where Trump is envious, I am grateful.
Where Trump is swallowed by his greed, I will act with charity.
Where Trump flares his wrath, I will be peaceful.
Where Trump is gluttonous, I will strive for a temperance
Where Trump is controlled by his lusts, I will let love be my guide.
Where Trump is prideful, I will seek within myself humility.
Where Trump oozes intellectual and physical sloth, I will take action.
I'm a secular person. I see Mr. Trump's most glaring traits as a sign of deep mental illness. In order to ensure my health and the well being of the community, we should all strive to see what he does and do the opposite.
Where Trump is swallowed by his greed, I will act with charity.
Where Trump flares his wrath, I will be peaceful.
Where Trump is gluttonous, I will strive for a temperance
Where Trump is controlled by his lusts, I will let love be my guide.
Where Trump is prideful, I will seek within myself humility.
Where Trump oozes intellectual and physical sloth, I will take action.
I'm a secular person. I see Mr. Trump's most glaring traits as a sign of deep mental illness. In order to ensure my health and the well being of the community, we should all strive to see what he does and do the opposite.
24
Thank you!
1
"Francis is flagrantly Trumpian: a shatterer of norms, a disregarder of traditions, an insult-heavy rhetorician, a pontiff impatient with the strictures of church law and inclined to govern by decree when existing rules and structures resist his will."
The norms shattered do not fit the reality of the world in which the church exists. The traditions under threat are often primary movers of people away from the church. Insults from Francis are the epitome of false equivalence to Trump's foul mind. Being impatient with the the strictures of church law is completely acceptable inasmuch as church laws hold thousands upon thousands of illogical and internally contradictory matters to be true and prevent the church from its stated mission. And, finally, he is, by definition, an authoritarian leader in charge of an authoritarian religious state.
Why is this so hard for the author to divine?
The norms shattered do not fit the reality of the world in which the church exists. The traditions under threat are often primary movers of people away from the church. Insults from Francis are the epitome of false equivalence to Trump's foul mind. Being impatient with the the strictures of church law is completely acceptable inasmuch as church laws hold thousands upon thousands of illogical and internally contradictory matters to be true and prevent the church from its stated mission. And, finally, he is, by definition, an authoritarian leader in charge of an authoritarian religious state.
Why is this so hard for the author to divine?
9
I don't see the Catholic right gathering in global protest against Francis. But the global left is gathering in collective protest against Trump. There is no comparison because Francis is standing on the right side of history arguing for what is good, and Trump is on the wrong side of history arguing for what is bad. The Catholic right has no momentum, no gravity to stop equal rights for women and LGTBQs. And the global right has no moral authority at all. It's like comparing good to bad because both stir a reaction.
23
Mr. Douthat's statement that "the mainstream of conservative Catholicism is not reactionary and not remotely Trumpian" is a bit disingenuous.
Pope Francis' simple desire to elevate issues such as compassion for the poor and refugees among us was perceived as coming at the expense of issues such as abortion and homosexuality. Let's be honest: the pope's change of emphasis is being met with a strong reaction by conservative Catholics.
It isn't a huge leap to recognize that large numbers of Catholic voters threw in their lot with a candidate who apparently "shared" their values. The fact that the candidate referred to the Eucharist as "drinking my little wine and eating my little cracker" was a tiny hint that he was faking it - but the hypocrisy could be conveniently overlooked, so long as the candidate ultimately delivered a Supreme Court that was sympathetic to those values.
Pope Francis' simple desire to elevate issues such as compassion for the poor and refugees among us was perceived as coming at the expense of issues such as abortion and homosexuality. Let's be honest: the pope's change of emphasis is being met with a strong reaction by conservative Catholics.
It isn't a huge leap to recognize that large numbers of Catholic voters threw in their lot with a candidate who apparently "shared" their values. The fact that the candidate referred to the Eucharist as "drinking my little wine and eating my little cracker" was a tiny hint that he was faking it - but the hypocrisy could be conveniently overlooked, so long as the candidate ultimately delivered a Supreme Court that was sympathetic to those values.
18
"So the story of Catholicism right now has less to do with reaction alone and more to do with what happens generally when an institution’s center doesn’t hold."
Maybe Ross, the pope is simply doing the right thing. The conservatism of the Catholic Church is harsh and reactionary. It is judgmental and destructive. It wants to create automatons out of people.
What purpose is there in that? When it comes to that, it certainly is not in line with the message of Jesus.
The church was and is still ossified. In that sense, it is irrelevant.
The problem is that there are those who treat the Gospels as subordinate to ceremony.
With Francis there is a return to the message of the man who is supposed to lead it - Jesus.
What we see in Francis is someone who is dynamic, wise and loving. That is a far cry from the old, rotted timber that is crumbling and cannot maintain relevancy in today's world. Francis and most of his parishioners are ahead of the bishops, priests and cardinals.
For them, the Gospel is still paramount and not some abstract doctrinal nonsense that simply is a ruse to maintain a grip on the imagination.
The truth is about humanity and not old failed ideologies. Francis is the right man for the right job at the right time.
Frankly, I thought he was almost too late to rescue the hierarchy of the church from itself.
Maybe Ross, the pope is simply doing the right thing. The conservatism of the Catholic Church is harsh and reactionary. It is judgmental and destructive. It wants to create automatons out of people.
What purpose is there in that? When it comes to that, it certainly is not in line with the message of Jesus.
The church was and is still ossified. In that sense, it is irrelevant.
The problem is that there are those who treat the Gospels as subordinate to ceremony.
With Francis there is a return to the message of the man who is supposed to lead it - Jesus.
What we see in Francis is someone who is dynamic, wise and loving. That is a far cry from the old, rotted timber that is crumbling and cannot maintain relevancy in today's world. Francis and most of his parishioners are ahead of the bishops, priests and cardinals.
For them, the Gospel is still paramount and not some abstract doctrinal nonsense that simply is a ruse to maintain a grip on the imagination.
The truth is about humanity and not old failed ideologies. Francis is the right man for the right job at the right time.
Frankly, I thought he was almost too late to rescue the hierarchy of the church from itself.
20
"Rather more intemperately, another Post writer, Emma-Kate Symons, accused Cardinal Burke of “using his position within the walls of the Vatican to legitimize extremist forces that want to bring down Western liberal democracy.” - Not so intemperately in my opinion. Ross Douthat describes a conspiracy and then writes how it isn't happening but could happen. I don't know a lot about Cardinal Burke but I do know this: he decries the supposed feminization of the church while wearing $30k gown, cloak and lace outfits. Was it not Burke who was advised by Pope Francis to sell his palatial home? Speaking from my perspective as a working class woman in her sixties, raised in the Irish Catholic tradition where rape victims were classified as wayward and forced to do physical penance in convents no one wants to acknowledge existed as recently as the 1960's, Trump and Burke seem quite similar in their large, imposing, scowling and physically menacing personas. Trump wants to restore American to a sort of greatness which he obviously equates to military power and wealth and Burke would have Catholics quaking before a harshly rigid and authoritarian clergy whose very roots stem from a long dead empire. Here in the USA, it is Christian Evangelical dominionists who want a church-state monolith and 81% of them voted for Trump. Catholics whose demographics reflect higher educational levels voted for Trump but not in such great proportions. Education. Education. Education.
25
Our community is very familiar with Burke. While presiding in St. Louis he attempted to confiscate the coffers of a Polish Catholic church which had been operating under a long-standing independence agreement. When they refused and fought him, he excommunicated the entire parish. Fortunately, Burke lost the fight. The man is nothing less than Machiavellian and cut from the same cloth as Bannon and Trump. There were a great many of us in St. Louis who were glad to see him go.
3
One of the readers called this "pretzel-logic." I agree. What is of consequence is the oblique reference to homology between the political and the ecclesiastical. By that I mean, reactions to the social conditions in which we live produce symmetry in the interactions of now politics, then church affairs. It makes sense that people who have a set of conservative/progressive principles in one field apply it to another. Disruption of this pattern has Mr. D. upset. Pope Francis is following the Gospel, not the ordinary flow of power as in civil society. Moreover, he is making it into a movement (witness the crop of bright and articulate prelates he promotes against the stodgy ecclesiastical climbers of the JP II era). The conservatives in the Church always identify with a PERSON, e.g. JP II, Burke, etc.) This pope is about the people of God. Far from a homologue of Trump, he is the antithesis.
35
Precisely this.
1
The hypothesis is essentially talking about kinetic energy. A reluctant pull away from center creates stored energy that will eventually bounce back in the opposite direction. Have you ever snapped a rubber band? Same idea. The further you pull, the harder the snap. However, the theory fails in more than one way. Politics, and much less religion, do not adhere to the laws of physical science. You're assuming that reactionary power is predictable, equivalent, and comparable. I'd argue the opposite.
The primary difference between Donald Trump and Pope Francis is intention. Francis legitimately seeks to do good in the world despite his religious institution while Trump is abusing our political institution for self-aggrandizement. One is driven by belief and purpose; the other is driven by vanity and opportunism. A similar chasm exists between Bernie Sanders and Cardinal Burke. One is trying to reform an institution on human principle while the other is trying to preserve an institution on the basis of tradition.
I don't see these forces as equivalent. Call me an optimist but I'll bargain Francis and Sanders will have the greater force going forward than their opposite number. Goodwill carries more weight than fear and loathing.
The primary difference between Donald Trump and Pope Francis is intention. Francis legitimately seeks to do good in the world despite his religious institution while Trump is abusing our political institution for self-aggrandizement. One is driven by belief and purpose; the other is driven by vanity and opportunism. A similar chasm exists between Bernie Sanders and Cardinal Burke. One is trying to reform an institution on human principle while the other is trying to preserve an institution on the basis of tradition.
I don't see these forces as equivalent. Call me an optimist but I'll bargain Francis and Sanders will have the greater force going forward than their opposite number. Goodwill carries more weight than fear and loathing.
45
"The theological issues dividing the church are quite distinct from the political issues dividing Western countries." Wow. I realize that history and facts are anathema to partisan hackery cum truthiness, but still: Google it.
1. Francis is the first Jesuit pope.
2. "The Jesuits' contributions to the late Renaissance were significant ... By the time of Ignatius' death in 1556, the Jesuits were already operating a network of 74 colleges on three continents. A precursor to liberal education, the Jesuit plan of studies incorporated the Classical teachings of Renaissance humanism into the Scholastic structure of Catholic thought."
3. "Jesuit missions in America were very controversial in Europe,...where they were seen as interfering with the proper colonial enterprises of the royal governments. The Jesuits were often the only force standing between the Native Americans and slavery."
4. "Within the Roman Catholic Church, there has existed a sometimes tense relationship between Jesuits and the Holy See due to questioning of official Church teaching... such as those on abortion,birth control, women deacons, homosexuality, and liberation theology. Usually, this theological free thinking is academically oriented, being prevalent at the university level. [The] function of this debate is less to challenge the magisterium than to illustrate the church's ability to compromise in a pluralist society based on shared values that do not always align with religious teachings."
1. Francis is the first Jesuit pope.
2. "The Jesuits' contributions to the late Renaissance were significant ... By the time of Ignatius' death in 1556, the Jesuits were already operating a network of 74 colleges on three continents. A precursor to liberal education, the Jesuit plan of studies incorporated the Classical teachings of Renaissance humanism into the Scholastic structure of Catholic thought."
3. "Jesuit missions in America were very controversial in Europe,...where they were seen as interfering with the proper colonial enterprises of the royal governments. The Jesuits were often the only force standing between the Native Americans and slavery."
4. "Within the Roman Catholic Church, there has existed a sometimes tense relationship between Jesuits and the Holy See due to questioning of official Church teaching... such as those on abortion,birth control, women deacons, homosexuality, and liberation theology. Usually, this theological free thinking is academically oriented, being prevalent at the university level. [The] function of this debate is less to challenge the magisterium than to illustrate the church's ability to compromise in a pluralist society based on shared values that do not always align with religious teachings."
30
Ross Douthat truly deserves an award for the sheer number of times he can be completely detached from reality per column and still keep his job. Stop referring to Trump and the Alt-Right as "Populists," they are no such thing. They are autocrats who believe only in their own legitimacy, and are willing to oppress and attack anyone in their way. I came here thinking it would be a discussion of the fact that reactionary and autocratic radicals have been lionized in their goals to dominate a society remade in their own image. But no, we see here an absurd comparison of Pope Francis to Donald Trump and an, "oh boys will be boys" dismissal of the danger that extremist like Steve Bannon and Raymond Burke pose to societies like our's that aim to respect the autonomy and freedom of their citizens. What should have been noted is that it is Pope Francis actually offers a way to redeem the Church from the hypocrites, charlatans, and money-changers like Raymond Burke that would trade faith and morality for power and control. Burke and men like him in the Church, who demand the discrimination of the LGBTQ community, wage a constant war on women globally to deny them the reproductive autonomy that is constantly shown as a necessary component in lift women out of poverty, and seek to unleash the wealth of the Church to buy politicians the world over, are the reason why so many Catholics are fleeing the Church in good conscious despite the strength of their faith.
424
Well thought-out response. My sentiments as well which you expressed so eloquently.
2
Well said Ryan of Brooklyn!!!
2
I also believe that Douthat (and many of the conservative Catholics I know) do not understand the creativity, joy, and potential of Latin American Catholicism. Liberation Theology was attacked by this right wing, when, in fact, it is a way to communicate across great divides to achieve positive outcomes. There is so much judgementalism in conservative Catholicism and it has always seemed to me that the real conversation needs to be between the individual and God first and the goal has to be to become a more loving, compassionate, and forgiving person, following Jesus.
2
This claim of a comparison is more a perceived perception than an actual description. President Trump isn't taking reactionary positions as much as opportunist ones which he perceives as in his best interest and which appeal to his base. Pope Francis is attempting to move Catholics and the church in a direction more in line with the world as it exists and in the direction he believes is consistent with Christ's teaching. The decline in church participation in the West particularly among younger people should indicate a desperate need for change. President Trump's supporters have many descriptions but concern for different people doesn't seem to fit. There is a difference between foresight and no sight, caring and indifference, love and hate. I may not necessarily agree with some of the Pope's actions but President Trump while doing very little legislation wise has created great uncertainty and moral conflicts.
195
Jorge Mario Bergoglio (Pope Francis) is a Franciscan priest of the highest order, representing the values of a compassionate Jesus better than any Pope in modern history...a saint-like human who makes Republican hypocrites, Pharisees and prevaricators uncomfortable with the truth.
Stephen Bannon is Donald Trump's violent, hateful, ideological wrecking ball, a man whose bile-filled, venomous misanthropy once described progressive women as a bunch of lesbians.
Here's Pope Francis:
"Time, my brothers and sisters, seems to be running out; we are not yet tearing one another apart, but we are tearing apart our common home. Today, the scientific community realizes what the poor have long told us: harm, perhaps irreversible harm, is being done to the ecosystem. The earth, entire peoples and individual persons are being brutally punished. And behind all this pain, death and destruction there is the stench of what Basil of Caesarea called “the dung of the devil”. An unfettered pursuit of money rules. The service of the common good is left behind. Once capital becomes an idol and guides people’s decisions, once greed for money presides over the entire socioeconomic system, it ruins society, it condemns and enslaves men and women, it destroys human fraternity, it sets people against one another and, as we clearly see, it even puts at risk our common home."
Pope Francis is real news.
Steve Bannon is fake news.
Steve Bannon has more in common with Attila the Hun than Saint Francis.
Stephen Bannon is Donald Trump's violent, hateful, ideological wrecking ball, a man whose bile-filled, venomous misanthropy once described progressive women as a bunch of lesbians.
Here's Pope Francis:
"Time, my brothers and sisters, seems to be running out; we are not yet tearing one another apart, but we are tearing apart our common home. Today, the scientific community realizes what the poor have long told us: harm, perhaps irreversible harm, is being done to the ecosystem. The earth, entire peoples and individual persons are being brutally punished. And behind all this pain, death and destruction there is the stench of what Basil of Caesarea called “the dung of the devil”. An unfettered pursuit of money rules. The service of the common good is left behind. Once capital becomes an idol and guides people’s decisions, once greed for money presides over the entire socioeconomic system, it ruins society, it condemns and enslaves men and women, it destroys human fraternity, it sets people against one another and, as we clearly see, it even puts at risk our common home."
Pope Francis is real news.
Steve Bannon is fake news.
Steve Bannon has more in common with Attila the Hun than Saint Francis.
221
Socrates,
Thank you. I agree with every word you write, except one. Pope Francis is a Jesuit not a Franciscan.
Thank you. I agree with every word you write, except one. Pope Francis is a Jesuit not a Franciscan.
2
Ross, let me get this straight.
In 2014, a representative of the Newt Gingrich wing of the Catholic Church met with the thrice-divorced head of Breitbart (and future advisor to a thrice-divorced libertine President) to commiserate on the alleged evils of modernity.
(irony alert)
Oh, for the good old days, when traditionalists could still burn a heretic for doubting the "miracle" of transubstantiation, and these other mongrel races and religions still knew their place.
In 2014, a representative of the Newt Gingrich wing of the Catholic Church met with the thrice-divorced head of Breitbart (and future advisor to a thrice-divorced libertine President) to commiserate on the alleged evils of modernity.
(irony alert)
Oh, for the good old days, when traditionalists could still burn a heretic for doubting the "miracle" of transubstantiation, and these other mongrel races and religions still knew their place.
82
Trump has only been divorced twice.
2
Comparing a loving, inclusive, humble-to-the-poor, scolder-of-the-rich Pope to a venomous, country-club-obsessed, small-business-stiffing, opulent vulgarian like Donald Trump in parallel form is not only absurd but offense.
There is nothing else to say about this waste of keystrokes.
There is nothing else to say about this waste of keystrokes.
87
They are not similar they are opposites.
Trump is anti-Christian drawing power by stocking hate of volunaberal Muslim immigrants, Pope Francis is Christian loving them and washing their feet.
Trump is a degenerate stiffing workers of a fair day's work and a defrauder of the elderly with his fake university degrees, while Pope Francis cleaned house of the Vatican's degenerates looting the bank.
The Holy Father reinvigorated a church poisoned by years of sex-abuse scandals and perceived even by many devout Catholics as out of sync with modernity. Trump has threatened democracy getting caught with his trusted "mad dog Mattis" in bed with the Russian Oligarchs. Was General Flynn the fall guy nailed for Trump's transgressions?
The evil president uses hate and fear as a tool of government while the Holy Father extends love to our homosexual brothers and sisters. Woman hating is not conservative and compassion for the miserable is not radical, it is Christian.
For a verbal acrobat seasoned in fanciful sophistry this was a performance for the ages. Good is bad, light is darkness, and hate is love.
Trump is anti-Christian drawing power by stocking hate of volunaberal Muslim immigrants, Pope Francis is Christian loving them and washing their feet.
Trump is a degenerate stiffing workers of a fair day's work and a defrauder of the elderly with his fake university degrees, while Pope Francis cleaned house of the Vatican's degenerates looting the bank.
The Holy Father reinvigorated a church poisoned by years of sex-abuse scandals and perceived even by many devout Catholics as out of sync with modernity. Trump has threatened democracy getting caught with his trusted "mad dog Mattis" in bed with the Russian Oligarchs. Was General Flynn the fall guy nailed for Trump's transgressions?
The evil president uses hate and fear as a tool of government while the Holy Father extends love to our homosexual brothers and sisters. Woman hating is not conservative and compassion for the miserable is not radical, it is Christian.
For a verbal acrobat seasoned in fanciful sophistry this was a performance for the ages. Good is bad, light is darkness, and hate is love.
35
As a Catholic I look past the gibberish fellow papist Douthat trots out here and look to my Pope as Vicar of Christ. As I pursue my daily gospel readings and align Francis's words and deeds with those of Jesus, I find to my spiritual satisfaction that the vicaring is going quite well, thank you. Francis's challenge in 2017 precisely conforms to the challenge Jesus issued in 30.
55
Under the neglect of Woytilja and the incapacity of Ratzinger the Vatican had become a hive of corruption, kickbacks, financial and real-estate scams, not to mention complicity with paedophilia on a global scale. 'Cess-pit' would be a better description than 'swamp'.
A lot of people had a great deal to lose from the draining of that midden and Francis' programme has met with constant covert opposition from these interests. I'm rather surprised to find Ross Douthat among their ranks - especially with arguments as absurd and overstretched as this Trump-Francis equivalence.
A lot of people had a great deal to lose from the draining of that midden and Francis' programme has met with constant covert opposition from these interests. I'm rather surprised to find Ross Douthat among their ranks - especially with arguments as absurd and overstretched as this Trump-Francis equivalence.
37
The conservative Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI were radically so, pushing back on earlier modernisation. They presided over a great reduction in the number of calls to the Priesthood, which do not cover the numbers necessary to provide pastoral care.
The Church condemned Galileo, and wilfully misinterpreted the Bible to contradict his theory; and now its conservative elements reject psychological understanding of human sexuality, retreating into condemnation and attempted control, which simply drives people away from it. Pope Francis may be able to ameliorate that.
The Church condemned Galileo, and wilfully misinterpreted the Bible to contradict his theory; and now its conservative elements reject psychological understanding of human sexuality, retreating into condemnation and attempted control, which simply drives people away from it. Pope Francis may be able to ameliorate that.
13
Poe Francis is radical the way President Obama was liberal - only if you compare them to the most conservative of their peers.
Pope Francis fits in the the Vatican II era clergy who pushed for acceptance of birth control and wider acceptance of sinners.
The unifying theme is not the intrigue, it is the fundamentalist reactionary movement we are seeing sweep politics and religion, not just here, but in Europe, and already entrenched in Russia. And people may have noticed the trend in Islamic countries? The Catholic Church is being dragged in.
So there doesn't need to be a conspiracy, just a common world view between Bannon and Burke, one that tries to force society backward to a bygone day they are more comfortable with. Nationalism and religious hardliners are a natural fit. Both like authority.
The difference of course, is that it is hard to walk away from being an American when you don't like what you see going on in your country - you have to fight it or accept it. But anyone can stop going to Church and putting cash in the basket. America will go on and survive the reactionaries; the Church may not survive the sheer defection of the number who have voted with their feet.
Pope Francis fits in the the Vatican II era clergy who pushed for acceptance of birth control and wider acceptance of sinners.
The unifying theme is not the intrigue, it is the fundamentalist reactionary movement we are seeing sweep politics and religion, not just here, but in Europe, and already entrenched in Russia. And people may have noticed the trend in Islamic countries? The Catholic Church is being dragged in.
So there doesn't need to be a conspiracy, just a common world view between Bannon and Burke, one that tries to force society backward to a bygone day they are more comfortable with. Nationalism and religious hardliners are a natural fit. Both like authority.
The difference of course, is that it is hard to walk away from being an American when you don't like what you see going on in your country - you have to fight it or accept it. But anyone can stop going to Church and putting cash in the basket. America will go on and survive the reactionaries; the Church may not survive the sheer defection of the number who have voted with their feet.
17
As a Catholic I feel the pope should comment on religion. He is a socialist from a socialistic country. I notice he does not like to be reminded he lives in Vatican City surrounded by very high walls. If the Catholic Church is so concerned about the poor then they should dismantle the gold from all their European and south American churches and on one there will be starving.
3
Argentina is a "socialistic" country? Oh, boy.
1
Maybe a re-reading of the Sermon on the Mount would help you.Was this about "religion"? It sounds "socialist" to me.
BTW Is there a translation of this sentence?
" If the Catholic Church is so concerned about the poor then they should dismantle the gold from all their European and south American churches and on one there will be starving."
BTW Is there a translation of this sentence?
" If the Catholic Church is so concerned about the poor then they should dismantle the gold from all their European and south American churches and on one there will be starving."
1
Ross,
You should take some time and read or re-read the Pope's Apostolic Exhortation. It truly defines what Pope Francis is all about. Some excerpts.
"You can’t say you don’t have time for the poor"
The excluded are still waiting for wealth to “trickle down"
"Income inequality is the result of unjust ideologies".
When attending church I see nothing but good. Passionate priests and wonderful parishioners. We all need to look on the bright side during these tumultuous times.
You should take some time and read or re-read the Pope's Apostolic Exhortation. It truly defines what Pope Francis is all about. Some excerpts.
"You can’t say you don’t have time for the poor"
The excluded are still waiting for wealth to “trickle down"
"Income inequality is the result of unjust ideologies".
When attending church I see nothing but good. Passionate priests and wonderful parishioners. We all need to look on the bright side during these tumultuous times.
21
The common theme is that each side thought it could win an election and then dictate from the power structure it inherited. In the modern world you have to use your bully pulpit, once you get it, to continue selling your ideas. The need never goes away and those what misread the situation find themselves isolated in the splendor of the office and unable to make progress.
2
The better analogy would be Jesus and the Pharisees, Pope Francis in the role of Jesus and the reactionaries in the Vatican the role of the Pharisees. I don't doubt that the Pharisees believed they too were simply trying to preserve tradition. And I don't doubt that if Mr. Douthat were alive two thousand years ago, he would stand with the Pharisees.
115
This article makes me grateful for not having been born and/or baptized as a Roman Catholic. Unfortunately, I was born as a US citizen, and I am not, at the moment, feeling very cheerful or optimistic about the future of that citizenship. I doubt that I am alone in such feelings.
27
I grew up Jewish circa 1947 in a small upstate New York city with two separate Catholic churches and parochial schools, one Italian and one Irish. The nuns and priests at the Irish school, acolytes of Father Coughlin, taught the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" as fact and their students made my trips to and from grade school a misery of taunts and beatings, something I never experienced from the students from the Italian school.
The diference was fascist/nativist teaching, not country-of-origin. I view the conflict between Pope Francis and Cardinal Burke through the lens of my childhood experience and wish the Pope success as he endeavors to liberalize the church.
The diference was fascist/nativist teaching, not country-of-origin. I view the conflict between Pope Francis and Cardinal Burke through the lens of my childhood experience and wish the Pope success as he endeavors to liberalize the church.
119
Thank you for sharing your experience. Tribalism is a remarkably strong force and the impulse to oppose "others" seems almost innate. Pope Francis is right to fight against that impulse and he is exactly who the Church needs in the papacy at this moment. And that is the only reason he can be argued to be a reverse reflection of Donald Trump who is certainly the worst choice of all posisble options to be "Leader fo the Free World."
1
You hit the nail on the head.
1
Coughlin was an idiot. I drive by his Church here in Michigan often and always shake my head.
Heartfelt apologies for his particularly venomous form of lunacy. He also urged supporters to tear down the Art Institute over Diego Rivera's mural.
The most bitter denunciations came from the fascistic Detroit-based “radio priest,” Father Charles Coughlin, whose syndicated radio program reached millions of American homes, and Rev. H. Ralph Higgins of Detroit’s St. Paul’s Methodist church, both of whom sought the murals’ destruction.
“Father Coughlin began to honor me daily with long diatribes, condemning the Institute frescoes as immoral, blasphemous, anti-religious, obscene, materialistic, and communistic,” Rivera remembered. “As a result, the whole city of Detroit began to argue about what I was doing.”
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/10/03/indu-o03.html
http://www.weeklystandard.com/the-day-trump-went-full-father-coughlin/ar...
Heartfelt apologies for his particularly venomous form of lunacy. He also urged supporters to tear down the Art Institute over Diego Rivera's mural.
The most bitter denunciations came from the fascistic Detroit-based “radio priest,” Father Charles Coughlin, whose syndicated radio program reached millions of American homes, and Rev. H. Ralph Higgins of Detroit’s St. Paul’s Methodist church, both of whom sought the murals’ destruction.
“Father Coughlin began to honor me daily with long diatribes, condemning the Institute frescoes as immoral, blasphemous, anti-religious, obscene, materialistic, and communistic,” Rivera remembered. “As a result, the whole city of Detroit began to argue about what I was doing.”
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/10/03/indu-o03.html
http://www.weeklystandard.com/the-day-trump-went-full-father-coughlin/ar...
1
Ross Douthat's false equivalency is exposed by that fact that Donald Trump is the antithesis of an ideologue. He is the personification of sui generis. Trump's solipsistic world view inoculates him from any ideological construct. The essence of the conflict in the Catholic Church is about dogma.
23
I find it jarring and incomprehensible that you could analogize a man and administration aimed at inciting US and global discord, staffed with individuals who have ties to organizations with unabashed racist supporters, who supports a ban on Muslims and a wall to keep out (his words) rapist and killer border crossers, who routinely disenfranchises women (to put it politely), who stands to personally gain from the Dakota Access Pipeline that was recently green lighted again--and I'm keeping my list here deliberately short--to a pope whose message is understanding, acceptance, forgiveness, inclusion of the marginalized, and encouraging people to see that the unabashed zeal for money isn't just in and of itself unchristian (camel, needle, ring a bell?) but is deliberately making the lives of most people on this planet and the planet itself untenable. You seem to have drunk the Kool-Aid of alt facts, where black is up, white is down and Pope Francis and Trump/Bannon are the same not only in mission but in content. Your logic is egregiously flawed.
109
By now, we should all expect the Spanish inquisition. Rejoice, they have lost the element of surprise. Which was always their chief weapon.
We know what the next abusive tweet will say before it is even punched out. We can learn to be ready when they announce the auto da fe.
We know what the next abusive tweet will say before it is even punched out. We can learn to be ready when they announce the auto da fe.
11
Hooray! I have been calling Steve Bannon Torquemada in my mind for a long time.
"Francis is flagrantly Trumpian"
This piece is utterly disgusting. The comparison is utterly ridiculous. Ross neglects one crucial fact, motive. The Pope is acting out of love and a desire to make his religion inclusive and a place of sanctuary. Agent Orange is in it solely for his own self aggrandizement and self enrichment, without a care in the world for the cruelty he sows.
This piece is utterly disgusting. The comparison is utterly ridiculous. Ross neglects one crucial fact, motive. The Pope is acting out of love and a desire to make his religion inclusive and a place of sanctuary. Agent Orange is in it solely for his own self aggrandizement and self enrichment, without a care in the world for the cruelty he sows.
378
It must be very special to have the insight to clearly see and identify the heresy and poor judgement found in both the Pope and the GOP President, combining his descriptions of their shortcomings into a coherent world view. This Ross Douthat is a truly talented guy.
23
Or, PERHAPS, truly delusional.
1
Only in the world of extreme conservatism (i.e. traditional institutional Catholicism) could this Pope be seen as some sort of extreme leftist. He has praised free trade and business, and only believes that capitalism requires constraints in order to best serve humanity and to prevent it from destroying society and the earth. We've known all that for 100 years. No one even disputes it any more, except the true extremists. Ross's piece is a pathetic and cynical attempt to equate the generous, liberal Catholicism of Pope Francis...a welcome relief after all the decades of rigid traditionalism...with the dangerous inhumanity of radical movements of the Left and Right. We have real threats to worry about in this world, and Pope Francis is not one of them.
171
The Pope is a threat to people like Ross (cheerleaders of the rigidly ideological Right) because he continually exposes the corrupt nature of their policies, which are designed to further the interests of the privileged at the expense of the poor and downtrodden.
3
The difference between Francis and Trump is that the things Francis is trying to change will, sooner or later, come to be the way the church is. He's the future.
The things Trump is trying to change will - sooner or later - be rejected and discarded. He's the past.
The things Trump is trying to change will - sooner or later - be rejected and discarded. He's the past.
204
Burke is a disgraced St. Louis Cardinal who, when he failed to deal with sexually abusive priests in St Louis, escaped to Vatican City where he continued his right wing "Ratzinger" style tactics. To equate Burke with Sanders and Corbyn is the joke of the day.
Francis is a radical pope in the sense that he wants to reinvigorate a church which has lost its roots ( radix = root). He is a biblical pope - rarely seen in the past 100 years - John XXIII being the exception : 1958 - `63. Douthat thinks more of the ruling, institutional, hierarchical church - the Spellman church - which is long dead. Se Murio.
Here in Mexico we have another Burke, Cardinal Norberto Rivera Carrera who is anything but a man of the poor. He travels with the rich and never heard of the beatitudes.
It`s tiring to hear how great John Paul II was. He was a Polish anti-communist who never understood Latin America. His shutting down Liberation theology only sided with the Oligarchs and created hell for millions of poor people.
Francis is a radical pope in the sense that he wants to reinvigorate a church which has lost its roots ( radix = root). He is a biblical pope - rarely seen in the past 100 years - John XXIII being the exception : 1958 - `63. Douthat thinks more of the ruling, institutional, hierarchical church - the Spellman church - which is long dead. Se Murio.
Here in Mexico we have another Burke, Cardinal Norberto Rivera Carrera who is anything but a man of the poor. He travels with the rich and never heard of the beatitudes.
It`s tiring to hear how great John Paul II was. He was a Polish anti-communist who never understood Latin America. His shutting down Liberation theology only sided with the Oligarchs and created hell for millions of poor people.
347
I'm Latin American, Catholic, and deeply suspicious about "Liberation Theology" (as if there was an "Oppression Theology"). Ever since that misguided interpretation of the Church's Social Doctrine came about, I've seen many Catholics (priests and nuns mostly) leave the faith and become Marxists, but never a commie convert to Catholicism. Not one. Bad business, from every way you look at it. Long live the legacy of JohnPaul II!
1
The only thing more amusing than the pretzel-logic of this piece is the thought that the Trump administration is responsible for a conspiracy to bring down the Pope. That would be a conspiracy of dunces.
75
Yes, the pope is radical, as you say, but he is radical as Jesus was radical. He preaches love, defends the poor, he forgives women. Women. Just watch the hysteria the radical right foments to control women. In that, the agendas in the Vatican and the Congress - whether consciously or intentionally or not - converge. what the two forms of radical right have in common is a zeal for maintaining absolute control. Over women, over the poor, over the Other, whatever that may at the moment, be.
266
I do not recognize the Pope Francis who visited a Philippines town as a typhoon approached and the Central Africa Republic during civil strife, and whose entire ministry is built on the central concept of mercy with the person depicted in this column. He has picked up the mantel of Pope John and is again offering hope to those seeking a church that offers relevance and hope to the world.
220
Ross as the "Prince."
I beg to disagree. Pope JP II is very traditionalist. As he was a trained actor/playwright he gives an aura of compassion. But there is no confusing him with Pope Francis. Pope John Paul II, after all, was the one, who decreed that the Opus Dei be the Papal's personal prelature. That's the reason why he likes Pope Benedict. The hold the tenets of the church close their hearts.
Having said it's the semantics of Pope Francis that can be confusing. But he has not and can't change church dogmas. With my Catholic faith and belief in fate - Pope Francis became Peter's successor for a reason. He opened discussion and non-practicing Catholics and non-Catholics alike are looking in to the church. Perhaps, with just a little curiosity.
Having said it's the semantics of Pope Francis that can be confusing. But he has not and can't change church dogmas. With my Catholic faith and belief in fate - Pope Francis became Peter's successor for a reason. He opened discussion and non-practicing Catholics and non-Catholics alike are looking in to the church. Perhaps, with just a little curiosity.
1
Give me a break Ross, or maybe you need a break. Francis and Donald have nothing in common other then the fact that they belong to the same species. After not even a month in office Donald's regime sinks into chaos and scandal. He has no grasp on reality. He thinks in slogans and lacks any vision for the future of this country. He can only talk in 5th grade grammar and vocabulary. Nepotism erodes the moral foundations of his office. A so called business man was elected to a so called president. Our values, our democratic principles and institutions will prevent that we become a so called country. Please never mention Francis and Donald in one sentence or article again.
578
I'm not sure they are in the same species. The pope is a human. Trump? Not sure.
1
Your comparison of U.S. politics with the goings on at the Vatican is stretching it a bit. The U.S. enjoys certain democratic underpinnings that have mostly been submerged for centuries in the Church. In other words, the Church is not Jesus. It is Peter, a much more flawed figurehead, and it may be undergoing the throes of a very slow revolution. If it takes its time it may well eventually succeed where France has failed. I hope so.
1
Here are a few things from the column that aren’t really true, with my comments after the **s:
“In his own way, no less than neoliberals in Western politics, John Paul II tried to forge a stable post-Second Vatican Council center for Catholicism"
** Not true. JP2 was between conservative and very conservative, and he didn’t really try to forge a stable center - which is in good measure why so many people left the church.
“The church under Francis has moved left as Western politics has moved right, “
** Hillary had a margin of popular vote victory similar to Obama in 2008. Trump got somewhat lucky with the electoral college. Democrats won the popular vote in 2016, 2012 and 2008: clearly not a move to the right. Yes in parts of Europe it’s moved more to the right, though that’s in part because it had been well to the left. In Canada, a very liberal person became prime minister.
“but the reality in both cases is one of polarization, of a right that wants to be more reactionary and a left that wants to be more radical"
** In good measure, Francis is reactionary (and not radical) in that he is reacting against modern Catholicism in favor of a return to the days of Jesus and the 1st century of Christianity, when the focus was far more on love and helping the poor, and much less on legalisms and rules. Likewise, he’s reacting against JP2’s conservatism and over-focus on rules, and in favor of a return to Vatican 2. So he wants major change, but as a return to the past.
“In his own way, no less than neoliberals in Western politics, John Paul II tried to forge a stable post-Second Vatican Council center for Catholicism"
** Not true. JP2 was between conservative and very conservative, and he didn’t really try to forge a stable center - which is in good measure why so many people left the church.
“The church under Francis has moved left as Western politics has moved right, “
** Hillary had a margin of popular vote victory similar to Obama in 2008. Trump got somewhat lucky with the electoral college. Democrats won the popular vote in 2016, 2012 and 2008: clearly not a move to the right. Yes in parts of Europe it’s moved more to the right, though that’s in part because it had been well to the left. In Canada, a very liberal person became prime minister.
“but the reality in both cases is one of polarization, of a right that wants to be more reactionary and a left that wants to be more radical"
** In good measure, Francis is reactionary (and not radical) in that he is reacting against modern Catholicism in favor of a return to the days of Jesus and the 1st century of Christianity, when the focus was far more on love and helping the poor, and much less on legalisms and rules. Likewise, he’s reacting against JP2’s conservatism and over-focus on rules, and in favor of a return to Vatican 2. So he wants major change, but as a return to the past.
10
Bannon-Burke is a meeting of the minds, reflecting a right wing desire to stop the clock. The difference is that Burke faces an audience of one, the Pope. Bannon has put himself in the face of the multitudes from the press down to the lowliest marcher for equality. These forces will bring down both of them.
The march of knowledge has speed, and will not be slowed any time soon. The universe is getting larger and sub-atomic particles ever smaller. The scope of the new is enlarging while our capacity to process it seemingly shrinks by the minute. It is a time when generals kill priests and where a picture on an I Phone can cause a war that kills generals.
Three cheers for the Pope and all those who want to move forward and not backward.
The march of knowledge has speed, and will not be slowed any time soon. The universe is getting larger and sub-atomic particles ever smaller. The scope of the new is enlarging while our capacity to process it seemingly shrinks by the minute. It is a time when generals kill priests and where a picture on an I Phone can cause a war that kills generals.
Three cheers for the Pope and all those who want to move forward and not backward.
8
The Pope is attempting to pull the Catholic church out of the medieval darkness of fear and superstition into a religion that actually focuses on the teachings of Jesus and also complies to the science leads religion cornerstone of the Age of Enlightenment. It's about time.
Donald Trump is a narcissistic hedonist devoid of a spiritual core or any core at all besides the sucking vacuum of his unquenchable appetites. Trumpism- what the hell are you talking about?- as if there is some structural basis for the disconnected utterances of a man brought to power by people who consider a formal education as the sign of elitism or who themselves proscribe to an entirely mythological religious construct- the very medieval, religion-leads- science theology that the Pope is attempting to lift the Catholic church from.
There's your comparison of the two men.
Donald Trump is a narcissistic hedonist devoid of a spiritual core or any core at all besides the sucking vacuum of his unquenchable appetites. Trumpism- what the hell are you talking about?- as if there is some structural basis for the disconnected utterances of a man brought to power by people who consider a formal education as the sign of elitism or who themselves proscribe to an entirely mythological religious construct- the very medieval, religion-leads- science theology that the Pope is attempting to lift the Catholic church from.
There's your comparison of the two men.
21
Just to point out some factual inaccuracies. Jeremy Corbyn is not a 'resister' in relation to Brexit (whereas, despite the overlap in their social bases, Sanders is unambiguous in regard to Trump). He did all he could to make sure that Labour MPs vote *in favour of* the 'Brexit bill' just last week, buying into the argument that the referendum result could not be challenged democratically. He sat on the fence even before the referendum, doing next to no campaigning against Brexit - apparently partly because he insisted he didn't want to share a podium with Tony Blair. He has long been rumoured to be a closet 'leaver', in keeping with the tradition of the 'Bennite' wing of the Labour party.
As for listing Merkel as the same sort of moderate as Cameron: the latter endorsed his chancellor's attempt to reduce the British state to the size it had in the 1930s (in terms of share of GDP, if I remember correctly), and was in no way moderate about his readiness to s**t on the poor in the process. His talk about 'sharing, caring' conservatism was pure PR. Although social stratification is increasing also in Germany, I would argue that Merkel's commitment to social cohesion is considerably less phoney, partly due to Germany's historical experience.
As for listing Merkel as the same sort of moderate as Cameron: the latter endorsed his chancellor's attempt to reduce the British state to the size it had in the 1930s (in terms of share of GDP, if I remember correctly), and was in no way moderate about his readiness to s**t on the poor in the process. His talk about 'sharing, caring' conservatism was pure PR. Although social stratification is increasing also in Germany, I would argue that Merkel's commitment to social cohesion is considerably less phoney, partly due to Germany's historical experience.
6
Let's not kid ourselves here: the traditions and rules that Catholicism imposes on priests, nuns, and followers are not just stale, but hilarious. The authority of the Church is fundamentally the question. My generation is grew up in a world where we could read lots of books but not find an answer to any question instantly. Young people now can get straight to the heart of any matter involving "where does the Bible come from?" or "why are there 66 books, not 65 or 67?" or "why can't priests marry?" or "why can't women become priests?" -- and when they look at these questions, they will see skeptics like me pointing out the shoddy reasoning and shaky premises involved in swallowing canon and doctrine whole. Christianity and Catholicism are not in decline, they are in collapse among young people today. The bright spots for the church are countries that are developing, where we were long ago, and that's their only hope for the future -- embed religion among people who are not able to access information like we in the first world can. Funny how religion thrives where information doesn't, eh?
11
What are you talking about? The Catholic Church has never been run as a democracy. The Pope has always been the ultimate decision maker. During my 71 years on this planet I have seen many popes come and go. This Pope is by far the most down to earth, caring and knowledgeable Pope in decades, if ever.
My Catholic education which included Sisters of Mercy, Christian Brothers and Jesuits, taught me that the Catholic Church is actually a very well run business with the Pope the ultimate decision-maker. That is the way it has been throughout history and probably will remain that way.
Bannon should stick to alt-right politics and not interfere with papal politics.
The people who criticize this Pope seem to be criticizing him because of his openness and caring for other people even if they are not Catholic. He is the epitome of my Jesuit education which I believe taught me to think logically but also with a sense of caring for others.
The Pope is a good man. We need more of them in a power role who can make a decision on facts rather than partisan politics. It is sad when analytical thinking and decision-making is thrown out the window in favor of partisanship. The Jesuits are great at analytical thinking. Please don't compare him to Mr. Trump.
My Catholic education which included Sisters of Mercy, Christian Brothers and Jesuits, taught me that the Catholic Church is actually a very well run business with the Pope the ultimate decision-maker. That is the way it has been throughout history and probably will remain that way.
Bannon should stick to alt-right politics and not interfere with papal politics.
The people who criticize this Pope seem to be criticizing him because of his openness and caring for other people even if they are not Catholic. He is the epitome of my Jesuit education which I believe taught me to think logically but also with a sense of caring for others.
The Pope is a good man. We need more of them in a power role who can make a decision on facts rather than partisan politics. It is sad when analytical thinking and decision-making is thrown out the window in favor of partisanship. The Jesuits are great at analytical thinking. Please don't compare him to Mr. Trump.
33
Where to start? Right wing "cafeteria catholics" like Douthat ignore the fact that most of Frances' political and economic - even environmental - positions are close to those of John Paul II and Benedict. Popes are not nearly as enthusiastic about capitalism as followers of Hayek. The right loved John Paul II's position on communism and abortion and blithely ignored everything else he professed.
Rightly or wrongly, Frances has not changed doctrine on abortion or the role of women. He has suggested that a Church which readily gives communion to murders (as it should) might consider a little Christian charity towards the divorced and those with different sexual preference. This has provoked a hysterical reaction from much of the Church establishment - many of whom should have either been defrocked or jailed for their role in the decades long pederasty scandal which still sullies the Church.
Cardinal Burke is not Bernie Sanders. He is a small minded bigot who only could have prospered in the era of Ratzinger (who was, to be fair, better as Pope). The reactionary American wing of the Church has always confused catholicism with nationalism and equated holiness with scorn for women, gays and others who are marginalized. Both Burke and Douthat might do well to spend some time contemplating the Beatitudes.
Rightly or wrongly, Frances has not changed doctrine on abortion or the role of women. He has suggested that a Church which readily gives communion to murders (as it should) might consider a little Christian charity towards the divorced and those with different sexual preference. This has provoked a hysterical reaction from much of the Church establishment - many of whom should have either been defrocked or jailed for their role in the decades long pederasty scandal which still sullies the Church.
Cardinal Burke is not Bernie Sanders. He is a small minded bigot who only could have prospered in the era of Ratzinger (who was, to be fair, better as Pope). The reactionary American wing of the Church has always confused catholicism with nationalism and equated holiness with scorn for women, gays and others who are marginalized. Both Burke and Douthat might do well to spend some time contemplating the Beatitudes.
25
The watershed between the two equally polarizing ideologies far-left far-right, is that in Bannon's view a catastrophe is bound to happen; an inevitable Armageddon overarching a number of years into the future leading to the ultimate conflict as prophesied in the book of Revelation; while on the left, even radical left, with its anti-establishment counterculture, with its rejection of the status quo, that now has been taken over by the Alt-right, there is no catastrophism: on the left progressive, forward-looking (the exact opposite to conservatism) ideology is the engine; meanwhile the far-right purports total, utter destruction, an all-out war with raving mystical connotations, indeed the latter present in certain Christian hyperorthodox exponents such as Bannon and Burke. A likely "clash of civilizations" populist tide that progressive, non-animal, intelligent forces are trying to counteract in the name of humanity.
6
I'm not interested, much at least, in Ross' thesis. Whether there exists this connection between unrelated political and religious poles. What interests me is Ross' contention that Francis is a radical pope, and that that radicalism is disruptive. Of course it is. Because Francis understands Christianity. At its core, in its purest form, Christianity is a radical religion, but this is how Ross and I differ: I see this as a radical good. Christianity is a religion requiring love of one another, requiring goodness and selfless aid to fellow humans. It is a religion that insists its adherents give themselves over to God and love. These are radical ideas, ones never fully practiced, ones often perverted by hate. I never hear in Ross' voice during his discussions of Christianity or Catholicism in particular the timbre that would indicate he believes this core idea. I'm no longer Catholic, no longer religious at all. But I consider myself a secular Catholic and try to live according to the teachings of this religion Ross clearly cares much about but never demonstrates he understands--excepting his deep understanding of the politics of this global church. I don't say this in a cruel way, just as observation. Ross is a great writer, a good thinker, and a man with impressive intelligence. I'm always happy to listen to him. And I'm a liberal.
14
In his comparison of Trump and Pope Francis, Douthat focuses on institutions and doctrines, which seems valid enough. Another approach, however, would emphasize the impact of their 'innovations' on people. The pope's attempt to modify Catholic doctrine on divorce and remarriage, it seems to me, seeks to soften the effects of a theological principle which ignores the realities of human nature and experience. Francis has attempted to modify rules which can condemn couples to a loveless relationship, while also preventing them from forming a new, more compatible, union.
Trump's 'reforms,' by contrast, stem from dislike of or contempt for, large segments of the population he governs. Women, ethnic and religious minorities, as well as immigrants, all fall outside the magic circle of the people who form his base. This man, who judges individuals and groups on the basis of their attitude and relationship to him, cannot identify with the needs of vulnerable Americans. Francis has spent his life ministering to such people; Trump considers them 'losers.'
From this perspective, the differences between these two 'rebels' greatly outweigh any similarities.
Trump's 'reforms,' by contrast, stem from dislike of or contempt for, large segments of the population he governs. Women, ethnic and religious minorities, as well as immigrants, all fall outside the magic circle of the people who form his base. This man, who judges individuals and groups on the basis of their attitude and relationship to him, cannot identify with the needs of vulnerable Americans. Francis has spent his life ministering to such people; Trump considers them 'losers.'
From this perspective, the differences between these two 'rebels' greatly outweigh any similarities.
15
Ross.
Lot's of convoluted arguments in favor of returning the church to the good old days of devotion inspired in large measure by a fear of the afterlife.
Most people are moving in the opposite direction.
Francis is simply trying to change the message and save what's left of an institution that should have collapsed and disappeared altogether after its international scandal involving the serial rape of thousands of children and its criminal cover-up of that atrocity.
You should be thankful that he's having some measure of success.
Lot's of convoluted arguments in favor of returning the church to the good old days of devotion inspired in large measure by a fear of the afterlife.
Most people are moving in the opposite direction.
Francis is simply trying to change the message and save what's left of an institution that should have collapsed and disappeared altogether after its international scandal involving the serial rape of thousands of children and its criminal cover-up of that atrocity.
You should be thankful that he's having some measure of success.
22
It seems all that we learned in Catholic school back in the fifties was wrong. We were told that the selection of the Pope by the Cardinals was divinely inspired. We were told that it was done through prayer and divine intervention and that the Pope who was selected was the right one. We were taught that the Pope was the unquestioned leader of the Church, not a democratically elected representative.
Now Mr, Douthat infers that a mistake may have been made, that the wrong Pope may have been selected. Of course conservative adherence to tradition would never allow an alternative selection process. How could all this be wrong? Have we been misled? Is the Papal selection process really just politics? I thought we were just supposed to accept the results as we were taught years ago. My how things have changed.
Now Mr, Douthat infers that a mistake may have been made, that the wrong Pope may have been selected. Of course conservative adherence to tradition would never allow an alternative selection process. How could all this be wrong? Have we been misled? Is the Papal selection process really just politics? I thought we were just supposed to accept the results as we were taught years ago. My how things have changed.
11
"We were told that it was done through prayer and divine intervention and that the Pope who was selected was the right one."
Divine intervention has always been rather suspect.
Divine intervention has always been rather suspect.
1
Those who oppose Pope Francis' efforts to focus the Church on Mercy rather than Dogma are forgetting the condition of the Church when Francis became Pope. The Church was reeling from the mounting evidence that the Vatican had failed to acknowledge or respond to sexual abuse of children by priests. There was a mound of evidence that the Vatican bank was guilty of unprofessional and illegal activities, from assisting the escape of Croatian Nazi's and their looted gold to South America , to the laundering of criminal's money. While the Church preached that homosexual acts were a sin, gay priests were prominent in the Vatican. Finally, The Curia was a place of intrigue and infighting, reminiscent of the Borgias. Cardinal Burke has been silent on these issues. Pope Francis, as Peter's successor, was elected to clean up and renew the Church.
33
So now, NYT right-wing writers hurry to the sanctuary of Rome. Brooks fantasizes about St. Bernard and his reclusive monks, but ignores that saint’s role in the Crusades and their enduring murderous reputation in Islam. Now Douthat finds a Roman connection, and interestingly finds a link to Brooks through the Knights of Malta. They are direct heirs to the Crusades' warrior Knights, the Hospitallers.
For me, Douthat's theory is upside-down. I have no desire to find a common link among the ills of Western democracies (other than human nature). In fact, I'd much prefer the opposite, because then our grotesque Trump problem might be seen as isolated and treatable. But the rise of right-wing xenophobia across Europe raises fears that liberal democracy may have run its course: it may have been undermined by its own success.
The openness of liberal democracy has unleashed extreme capitalism, and we’ve produced an economy that depends on consumption, which is destroying the planet. From drought on the eastern and southern margins of the Mediterranean to a failing dam in California—now, there’s an undeniable unifying theory in there, one decried by the party both Brooks and Douthat have supported to the detriment of America.
For me, Douthat's theory is upside-down. I have no desire to find a common link among the ills of Western democracies (other than human nature). In fact, I'd much prefer the opposite, because then our grotesque Trump problem might be seen as isolated and treatable. But the rise of right-wing xenophobia across Europe raises fears that liberal democracy may have run its course: it may have been undermined by its own success.
The openness of liberal democracy has unleashed extreme capitalism, and we’ve produced an economy that depends on consumption, which is destroying the planet. From drought on the eastern and southern margins of the Mediterranean to a failing dam in California—now, there’s an undeniable unifying theory in there, one decried by the party both Brooks and Douthat have supported to the detriment of America.
22
What drivel - the audacity to compare the Pope and Trump. Pope is a man of the people, washing the feet of the poor, focused on right and good not the doctrine of reactionary clergy. Trump is a man of the billionaires. His first weeks show he has no interest in the good of the country. His crass display of wealth, his lies, his violation of every code of conduct - torture, vilifying the weak and oppressed. A twice divorced man with his hand on every woman. This was a ridiculous column.
90
there's strategy (however grandiose the burke/ bannon agenda) and there's tactics ("actual machinations").
there are objectives and there are means, steps, toward them and though the connection is not always easy to spot (poor condi and her unconnectable dots, still haunts)...but connections never, under diligent oversight, escape detection.
both the church and western democracy have more than one definition, heir simplest being based in faith, the original faith of their founding as opposed to their latter-day, man-made monolithic, institutional entities, with their own self-preservative priorities, these are at the heart of a "unifying theory of all the disturbances in western institutions."
a chuch based on, and protective of, the founding faith is not the vatican state (you can look it up) nor have any of its crusading, inquisitorial, excommunicative, iterations been so.
we've just had an election gone sour because the "party of the people" the voice of our voices, disdained half us and assumed that the other half, flattered by its celebrity or all-access passes, would charm its candidate into the white house and the power, the institutional power that rather controls than serves the (catholic or democratic) faithful.
in the church, it is the burke bishops, not "populist forces" who oppose francis, their priority is protection of their privilege and power, not the sheperding of the faithful, not by a long shot.
there are objectives and there are means, steps, toward them and though the connection is not always easy to spot (poor condi and her unconnectable dots, still haunts)...but connections never, under diligent oversight, escape detection.
both the church and western democracy have more than one definition, heir simplest being based in faith, the original faith of their founding as opposed to their latter-day, man-made monolithic, institutional entities, with their own self-preservative priorities, these are at the heart of a "unifying theory of all the disturbances in western institutions."
a chuch based on, and protective of, the founding faith is not the vatican state (you can look it up) nor have any of its crusading, inquisitorial, excommunicative, iterations been so.
we've just had an election gone sour because the "party of the people" the voice of our voices, disdained half us and assumed that the other half, flattered by its celebrity or all-access passes, would charm its candidate into the white house and the power, the institutional power that rather controls than serves the (catholic or democratic) faithful.
in the church, it is the burke bishops, not "populist forces" who oppose francis, their priority is protection of their privilege and power, not the sheperding of the faithful, not by a long shot.
4
How can anyone compare Francis with trimp without addressing the issue that one of them is an habitual public liar who can reasonably be impugned for possibly using his office in a self serving commercial fashion? There are also reasons to raise legitimate questions concerning the emotional stability and intellectual capacity of one of those two. Does Mr. Douthat mean to imply that, despite powerful public impressions, these two gentlemen are equivalents on those axes?
17
The logic in this piece is brilliantly if not bizarrely Byzantine. Here's the difference. Trump is a radical departure from the norm of U.S. politics because he and his minority base seek to impose an atavistic agenda on and to the detriment of the majority. Francis is a radical departure from the norm of the Roman Catholic church hierarchy because he and his majority laic base (joined by many priests and nuns) seek to lead the church with a carefully constructed more modern agenda that checks the power exercised by the traditional hierarchy. Trump and his oligarchic supporters seek to consolidate power unto themselves and to maintain inaccessibility, inequality, and imbalance. They preach and practice monarchical paternalism. Francis and his supporters seek to share power broadly that promotes accessibility, equality, and balance They advocate a more popular and significantly less harsh form of paternalism than has been historically practiced.
169
Ross, I think you need to look at this more carefully. To compare Francis's approach of dialogue and discussion such as took place during the synod on the family, to Trump's approach is a huge stretch. This pope has not come into power issuing decrees. Moreover, he has a profound sense of service. Would that Trump and his administration had such respect for other and the willingness to seek a way forward that involves the entire community.
390
"they are simply conservatives, comfortable with the Pope John Paul II model of Catholicism, with its fusion of the traditional and modern, its attempt to maintain doctrinal conservatism while embracing the Second Vatican Council’s reforms."
So, I'm guessing that this is where you sit. You might recall that at the time of Vatican II, the right wing of the church (of which you might have been part, had you been alive) was horrified. Their saying was that the pope "opened the window to let fresh air in and half the church jumped out."
As to Francis being "radical," don't make me laugh. He is, indeed, a liberation theologian, so he has a focus on the poor, the outcast, and those whom society kicks to the curb. However, he is not doing much of anything to change underlying doctrine - on ordination of women, divorce (too bad so many are outraged that the divorced might be 'allowed' to come to Jesus' table,), contraception or a host of other issues.
So, I'm guessing that this is where you sit. You might recall that at the time of Vatican II, the right wing of the church (of which you might have been part, had you been alive) was horrified. Their saying was that the pope "opened the window to let fresh air in and half the church jumped out."
As to Francis being "radical," don't make me laugh. He is, indeed, a liberation theologian, so he has a focus on the poor, the outcast, and those whom society kicks to the curb. However, he is not doing much of anything to change underlying doctrine - on ordination of women, divorce (too bad so many are outraged that the divorced might be 'allowed' to come to Jesus' table,), contraception or a host of other issues.
70
Would Burke or Bannon assassinate the Pope? Give Bannon's own brand of nihilism and insanity, the idea does not seem out of the question.
43
This comment is beyond the pale. Shame on you. Shame!
Let's catalog Ross' main errors: No "natural desire" (political Darwinism?) for combing struggles exists (Proven by the centuries-long white working class racism; by US refusal to implement single payer healthcare, by contrasting actions toward refugees, et al.) White national/supremacy in various forms is stirring--a failure of democracy to block its antithesis.
Catholic conservation and Brannon's ideological views have nothing in common! Brannon saves no souls. He doesn't preach redemption from sin. Who knows where he is on transubstantiation? Catholics (Burke or the Pope) don't set military/trade policy. Or kill children in the middle of the night for flash drives and hard discs.
The "same lines" of resistance and support are not "roughly" alike! (This is a glaring example Alfred North Whitehead's fallacy of "misplaced concreteness." By Douthat's thought grouping, cell division is "roughly" the same as baseball games/the NBA playoffs/elections/the I Ching--because they engage opposing forces, as do Church and State. (All opposites are not the same!)
Boots on the ground working to reset American democracy from the clowns in control have nothing to fear or learn from the pseudo-analysis of Ross and friends. It deflects. It also exposes their faults and fears.
Catholic conservation and Brannon's ideological views have nothing in common! Brannon saves no souls. He doesn't preach redemption from sin. Who knows where he is on transubstantiation? Catholics (Burke or the Pope) don't set military/trade policy. Or kill children in the middle of the night for flash drives and hard discs.
The "same lines" of resistance and support are not "roughly" alike! (This is a glaring example Alfred North Whitehead's fallacy of "misplaced concreteness." By Douthat's thought grouping, cell division is "roughly" the same as baseball games/the NBA playoffs/elections/the I Ching--because they engage opposing forces, as do Church and State. (All opposites are not the same!)
Boots on the ground working to reset American democracy from the clowns in control have nothing to fear or learn from the pseudo-analysis of Ross and friends. It deflects. It also exposes their faults and fears.
85
Douthat wants us to believe process and structure are all the same. He mixes up how things work (process) with their differences (structure, content, essence, definition, function)--and sets his fancy on the pretense (misplaced, concrete!) that the parallels of process are more important then the structural differences! No!
1
The liberal-conservative divide infects every human institution, and religions are no different. In every instance there are decent people who look for ways to uplift the spirit and ease suffering, and there are those who diminish others and inflict pain born of the guilt of their own existence.
Some people long for the good old days, when grieving parents thought limbo was stuffed full of infants’ souls, when abusive marriage was no excuse to get divorced and when child rape was just the cost of doing business—big, big business, if the tonnage of gold in the Vatican is any indication.
Drawing parallels between politics and pulpits can only take us so far. There are limits to what people will put up with in politics, but the pulpit knows no bounds.
As conservatives go, President Donnie in his wildest narcissistic nightmare could not begin to conjure the alternative facts invented by religions. At least the president and his bizarre acolytes have the unfortunate advantage of being real, while religion exacts a toll on believers while being constructed entirely out of myth.
Pope Francis is popular among the masses because he is trying to humanize the more inhuman aspects of the Church. He’s trying to live down the legacy of child rape, humanize gay people and allow believers to stay in the faith, should they need to escape loveless or abusive marriages.
Conservatives are furious. If you're going to celebrate humanity, what's to become of the church?
Some people long for the good old days, when grieving parents thought limbo was stuffed full of infants’ souls, when abusive marriage was no excuse to get divorced and when child rape was just the cost of doing business—big, big business, if the tonnage of gold in the Vatican is any indication.
Drawing parallels between politics and pulpits can only take us so far. There are limits to what people will put up with in politics, but the pulpit knows no bounds.
As conservatives go, President Donnie in his wildest narcissistic nightmare could not begin to conjure the alternative facts invented by religions. At least the president and his bizarre acolytes have the unfortunate advantage of being real, while religion exacts a toll on believers while being constructed entirely out of myth.
Pope Francis is popular among the masses because he is trying to humanize the more inhuman aspects of the Church. He’s trying to live down the legacy of child rape, humanize gay people and allow believers to stay in the faith, should they need to escape loveless or abusive marriages.
Conservatives are furious. If you're going to celebrate humanity, what's to become of the church?
424
Oh, I don't know: according to the unchained, potted liberati, President Donnie is pretty creative at conjuring "alternative facts"; and doesn't need to resort to his "wildest narcissistic nightmare" to do it -- 140 characters (including spaces) usually is enough. Actually, his wildest narcissistic nightmare probably was Ivanka, and we're told that she's now batting for a team Pope Francis doesn't influence a whole lot, except when Congress is deliberating military aid to Israel.
It's true that celebrating humanity has little to do with the Church. But, fairly, that was never their intent.
Your comments, EVER so slowly, are becoming more generally relevant. Must be encroaching age.
It's true that celebrating humanity has little to do with the Church. But, fairly, that was never their intent.
Your comments, EVER so slowly, are becoming more generally relevant. Must be encroaching age.
In his day, was there anyone more radical than Christ. He preached love thy neighbor, forgiveness, truth, comforting and aiding the least amongst us.
5
The norms and traditions of the church and the workings of church law were to cover up child abuse rather than working to prevent or punish it. Traditionally, such goings-on are unthinkable, too horrible to talk about. So anyone who tries to talk about them, including people who were or are abused, is quickly silenced because such things are unthinkable, which assures that they will continue and that the perpetrators are safe and protected.
This is just plain wrong and unchristian even if it is the largest and oldest Christian institution that is doing it. But traditionalists want to restore the Church's moral authority on traditional lines, which means restoring the Church's ability to safely not deal with problems such as pederasty. Similarly, political traditionalists want to restore (or actually to create) the state's ability to wage pointless, never-ending wars and continue redistributing income upwards.
In either case, a value-free analysis of forces indicates that Humpty Dumpty has fallen off the wall and that putting him back together will take vast effort and have very limited success. The traditionalist country and church may survive, but they will need constant repairs to survive and will have little energy for anything else, such as dealing with an overpopulated and environmentally stressed planet.
This is just plain wrong and unchristian even if it is the largest and oldest Christian institution that is doing it. But traditionalists want to restore the Church's moral authority on traditional lines, which means restoring the Church's ability to safely not deal with problems such as pederasty. Similarly, political traditionalists want to restore (or actually to create) the state's ability to wage pointless, never-ending wars and continue redistributing income upwards.
In either case, a value-free analysis of forces indicates that Humpty Dumpty has fallen off the wall and that putting him back together will take vast effort and have very limited success. The traditionalist country and church may survive, but they will need constant repairs to survive and will have little energy for anything else, such as dealing with an overpopulated and environmentally stressed planet.
46
Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! Very well said!
1
Ross, you really had to reach far to come up with these analogies. To compare "Trumpism" --whatever that is -- to the situation in the Vatican is really over-the-top.
Pope Francis is the antithesis of Donald Trump. Sure he's attacked by conservatives for pushing the envelope on Catholic teaching, but this man of the people isn't subversive – he's right out in the open.
In a world rocked by unpredictable vacuums of power, the pope is a stable force and a man with his eye on the ball: the teachings of Jesus.
Trapped in my house by a New England blizzard, I turned on a channel called CatholicTV and there was pope Francis holding an audience. As I speak Italian, I listened--you know what the first words out of his mouth were? To pray for refugees, to pray for those trapped in the violence of war with no hope, no possessions, and nowhere to go.
This pope is the only one making sense in this crazy world. You hate the fact he's trying to liberalize some Catholic teachings regarding marriage and encourage lapsed Catholic's to return to the church. I'm focused on the bigger picture: the fact that someone is reminding us daily what our purpose on earth is.
Ross, you are sounding more and more like a Pharisee. Instead of comparing Pope Francis to a liberal renegade, it might be worth your time to listen to what he's really saying.
Pope Francis is the antithesis of Donald Trump. Sure he's attacked by conservatives for pushing the envelope on Catholic teaching, but this man of the people isn't subversive – he's right out in the open.
In a world rocked by unpredictable vacuums of power, the pope is a stable force and a man with his eye on the ball: the teachings of Jesus.
Trapped in my house by a New England blizzard, I turned on a channel called CatholicTV and there was pope Francis holding an audience. As I speak Italian, I listened--you know what the first words out of his mouth were? To pray for refugees, to pray for those trapped in the violence of war with no hope, no possessions, and nowhere to go.
This pope is the only one making sense in this crazy world. You hate the fact he's trying to liberalize some Catholic teachings regarding marriage and encourage lapsed Catholic's to return to the church. I'm focused on the bigger picture: the fact that someone is reminding us daily what our purpose on earth is.
Ross, you are sounding more and more like a Pharisee. Instead of comparing Pope Francis to a liberal renegade, it might be worth your time to listen to what he's really saying.
740
As a person who is not particularly religious but still attends church and is a contributing member of that church (United Methodist), I appreciate how this Pope has elevated the actual teachings of Jesus to the fore. Raised as a Southern Baptist who was taught in Sunday school what Jesus actually said and did, these teachings stuck with me. The Baptist emphasis on "saving souls" to the exclusion of the Jesus taught Christian values led me to leave that denomination. How pleasantly surprised to hear the Pope emphasize the real Christian values of love, helping the poor and the sick, etc. The fundamentalist Christians of today seem to operate with a very thin Bible with only 2 verses:
Don't have an abortion
Don't allow gay people to marry each other.
President Trump, with all of his greedy, sexist, racist, mocking behavior brought these evangelicals into his fold because he said that there should be punishment for women who have an abortion. These people ignored everything about him but that.
Don't have an abortion
Don't allow gay people to marry each other.
President Trump, with all of his greedy, sexist, racist, mocking behavior brought these evangelicals into his fold because he said that there should be punishment for women who have an abortion. These people ignored everything about him but that.
30
So … you're sayin' God picked the wrong Pope?
That would seem to undermine the institution of the Catholic Church far more deeply than the actions of a single pope can. A true believer would have to accept that God pointed to the right man for the time. As the Anthropocene deepens, maybe God thought it was high time for his Creation to be defended by the Pope. Maybe God thought the Church needed more love, inclusivity and forgiveness and a Pope people actually want to listen to. Maybe God actually thinks it's a bad idea for eight men to possess as much wealth as the least wealthy half of the world. Maybe—gasp—God isn't a Republican. Maybe He isn't even an American.
Really, if you're going to be a believer, then believe. Maybe the challenge to your personally constructed faith means your faith's been built on the wrong things.
That would seem to undermine the institution of the Catholic Church far more deeply than the actions of a single pope can. A true believer would have to accept that God pointed to the right man for the time. As the Anthropocene deepens, maybe God thought it was high time for his Creation to be defended by the Pope. Maybe God thought the Church needed more love, inclusivity and forgiveness and a Pope people actually want to listen to. Maybe God actually thinks it's a bad idea for eight men to possess as much wealth as the least wealthy half of the world. Maybe—gasp—God isn't a Republican. Maybe He isn't even an American.
Really, if you're going to be a believer, then believe. Maybe the challenge to your personally constructed faith means your faith's been built on the wrong things.
507
I don't think "God picked the wrong Pope", I think the Democrats picked the wrong candidate.
God made man, and MAN made religions
1
Fantastic response - made my day.
5
You can scoff all you like... but Bannon and Burke would like nothing more than to discredit this Pope.
Whether they are "colluding" or not, they have the same goal.
Whether they are "colluding" or not, they have the same goal.
233
I'm glad you provided a link to Jason Horowitz's article of last week on Steve Bannon ("Steve Bannon Cited Italian Thinker Who Inspired Fascists", Feb. 10, 2017) where Bannon references Julius Evola's "Solar Civilization", a "hierarchical society run by a spiritually superior caste".
This "spiritually superior caste" is based on "hierarchy, caste, monarchy, race, myth, religion and ritual".
It hates "modernity" and is a boy's only club.
Sound familiar?
Because I am an atheist, I love cults so Horowitz's article caused me to check out this Julian Evola. I found nothing new, it was the same-old Ladderism - except for one itty-bitty distinction: the concept of "spiritual racism". That's the mechanism that allows one to NOT put all the Jews in the ovens, a few can be saved out because of their "spiritually superior" souls.
Well, who knew?
"And while for now the Bannon-Burke conflation is a bit silly, it is possible to imagine the religious and the political eventually converging."
Well, yes, Ross. That is what religions do.
They change. They evolve... or devolve... depending on whether "the center holds", I guess.
"Evolution"? Religions prove it all the time.
Who knew?
Yes, I agree. It is not "implausible" for the Rad Trads to deliver a conjoined assault on both the Church and the State.
It happens all the time.
So, next time, don't whisper.
"Silly" happens.
Sound the alarm!