As a practicing attorney I agreed to teach a class at a state university. I was shocked at how poorly prepared my upper level undergraduate and master's students were. They couldn't write coherently argued, solidly researched papers, and I had to eject a grad student for flagrant plagiarism. Most were willing to rewrite and learn, but a number of educators must have failed them by succumbing to pressure to lower standards.
14
Very inadequate article. Siemens went to Charlotte and can't find skilled workers? What do you expect? Henry Ford opened a trade school in 1916 in Dearborn, Michigan to train apprentices. That school has continued as a community college with emphasis on learning a skill. We know how to train workers in the United States.
By the way, the test question 1 has possible answers with numbers but the correct choices are with letters: somewhat confusing.
By the way, the test question 1 has possible answers with numbers but the correct choices are with letters: somewhat confusing.
2
Here in America, in the past 60 years, deindustrialization has been the program of all major industries ( auto, steel, rubber, electrical appliance, electronics etc). Both political parties have lined up to help the export of whole factories, industries and millions of jobs -- destroying the lives of the working and middle class Americans (read: NAFTA).
On the front of education, working class and lower middle class kids were left with -- no job, or minimum wage jobs in fast food/custodial/prison labor because they were caught smoking weed or some other petty crime.
High schools offered the kids no job training, the kids were passed thru. Demoralized many kids dropped out at age 10 or 12! Many graduated with a FAKE DIPLOMA , they could only read or do math at a 4 th grade level. For those who had a real education, jobs were also few and far between.
Educational leaders claimed that on the job training (OJT)nd apprenticeships were a thing of the past. BUT this was a big lie to justify no training programs for working class kids. In fact, all MD's, Dentists,Lawyers, Supreme Court Judges, Astronauts, Pilots, Cardiologists etc receive years and years of OJT.
America needs an educational policy that serves more that the ultra rich!
On the front of education, working class and lower middle class kids were left with -- no job, or minimum wage jobs in fast food/custodial/prison labor because they were caught smoking weed or some other petty crime.
High schools offered the kids no job training, the kids were passed thru. Demoralized many kids dropped out at age 10 or 12! Many graduated with a FAKE DIPLOMA , they could only read or do math at a 4 th grade level. For those who had a real education, jobs were also few and far between.
Educational leaders claimed that on the job training (OJT)nd apprenticeships were a thing of the past. BUT this was a big lie to justify no training programs for working class kids. In fact, all MD's, Dentists,Lawyers, Supreme Court Judges, Astronauts, Pilots, Cardiologists etc receive years and years of OJT.
America needs an educational policy that serves more that the ultra rich!
3
The Bachelor degree is the pre-professional degree for the lawyer, the doctor, the teacher, and the priest. Others go to vocational college to learn one of 230 trades. The rest serve as field hands, day laborers, and Uber drivers.
3
My grand daughter just graduated with a 4 year degree with highest honors and recognition beyond that. Now she has gone back to school to learn a trade so that she can earn a living.
7
Of course Siemens could have gone to any of many sources and found that S.C. has fewer than 26% of the population with a degree. This puts it in the lowest 12 States with at least a BA or BS. Massachusetts on the other hand has 40% - but Siemens probably got great tax breaks to open in S.C. - and will have to import labour from other states - or gasp- from abroad.
Such short term planning is not normally done by German companies, so I assume they hired a local for to create this bad deal.
Such short term planning is not normally done by German companies, so I assume they hired a local for to create this bad deal.
10
I graduated from high school, went to college, and became a teacher. My cousin joined the navy where he learned skills that got him a job on the railroad when he returned from the Vietnam. He earned more than twice what I did as a teacher.
My niece went through a dental program at the Vo-Tech (now called Community College). She earns about the same as my daughter who has a Ph.D. and teaches at a university.
My son (with a degree in engineering) earns about the same as the plumber he hired to do some rehab work on their house and the plumbers in their town are so busy he had to wait two months before the guy could come.
My niece went through a dental program at the Vo-Tech (now called Community College). She earns about the same as my daughter who has a Ph.D. and teaches at a university.
My son (with a degree in engineering) earns about the same as the plumber he hired to do some rehab work on their house and the plumbers in their town are so busy he had to wait two months before the guy could come.
6
Honestly the next generation of the totally uneducated is already happening. If DeVos gets through next week I don't see any hope for decades. Oregon is already rated 43rd in terms of education quality in the US . Got this little gem from our State Representative in the mail today.. Currently, Oregon is projected to have $1.8 billion less than it needs for the next two-year budget to fund core existing programs in education, health care and public safety, as well as three recently passed ballot measures for career and technical education, outdoor school, and veteran services. Without any additional revenue, this budget gap will mean painful cuts to schools and critical programs. People in every corner of the state will feel the impact of these cuts.
These potential cuts include: larger class sizes; a shorter school year; teacher layoffs; fewer educational supports; higher college tuition and reduced financial assistance for struggling students; less help for seniors, people with disabilities, and struggling families; cuts to mental health care, substance abuse treatment programs, and health insurance coverage for low-income families; and fewer resources for our public safety system to be smart on crime.
These potential cuts include: larger class sizes; a shorter school year; teacher layoffs; fewer educational supports; higher college tuition and reduced financial assistance for struggling students; less help for seniors, people with disabilities, and struggling families; cuts to mental health care, substance abuse treatment programs, and health insurance coverage for low-income families; and fewer resources for our public safety system to be smart on crime.
4
After some 100 years of free primary ans secondary education for the masses we must revisit the beliefs and assumptions underlying it. Its main goals were to produce a literate and numerate working class for the economy and a citizenry capable of active, informed participation in a participatory democracy. Where are we today? Well, Donald trump was elected President of the USA and the EU was rejected in the UK's Brexit referendum. Doesn't say much for the validity of those assumptions about mass education for either the economy or the democracy.
Our schools, colleges and universities are producing hordes of over-schooled and under-educated unemployables (and a good number of "deplorables") There is lots of blame to go around but fiddling with curricula, funding, teacher training, teacher unions and educational ideologies will not fix the problem. Put simply, more than half of the population are intellectually and temperamentally incapable of acquiring the levels of academic and technical abilities required by the fast changing economy.
What to do? In the short term, devote more resources to early education and a shorter primary-secondary phase (ending at age 16) concentrating on basic literacy and numeracy, and governance and economics. That will take care of the "average students". The more capable can continue with pre-university or technical vocational studies. After that nothing, until the true nature of the problem is understood and accepted.
o
Our schools, colleges and universities are producing hordes of over-schooled and under-educated unemployables (and a good number of "deplorables") There is lots of blame to go around but fiddling with curricula, funding, teacher training, teacher unions and educational ideologies will not fix the problem. Put simply, more than half of the population are intellectually and temperamentally incapable of acquiring the levels of academic and technical abilities required by the fast changing economy.
What to do? In the short term, devote more resources to early education and a shorter primary-secondary phase (ending at age 16) concentrating on basic literacy and numeracy, and governance and economics. That will take care of the "average students". The more capable can continue with pre-university or technical vocational studies. After that nothing, until the true nature of the problem is understood and accepted.
o
4
Public education was working fine. Then "No Child Left Behind" dumbed it down to the lowest common denominator and efforts to set standards were lobbied against viciously. Do you suppose "someone" wanted public education to fail like they want all government programs to fail? So all government programs could be privatized? So "someone" can get richer and the suckers can get taken to the cleaners. Politically, NC has been defunding education as fast as possible and allocating a big chunk of what's left to "for profit" charter schools. Has worked out just as planned.
To quote our great Leader "sad, very sad"
To quote our great Leader "sad, very sad"
2
Great article. Learned hands on with knowledgeable teachers. Went from hauling trash to working on building projects to teaching students Stem programs for their knowledge
As someone involved in educating workers for some 30 years, I also lay the blame at the feet of both industry and the education system.
The education system in North America is hamstrung by a system that does not value a trades education, bound by out-of-date curriculum, and fears of retribution by parents, if little Johnny or Judy are provided with educational choices that do NOT lead to at least a 4-year college or university degree.
Industry does not get off the hook, either. While the reasons for off-shoring manufacturing are many (ROI, profits, taxation are only some), many of the countries we off-shore to, like China, have superior education systems. North American businesses need to take responsibility for training their own employees on the job. They can't wait for the college system to develop custom job skills training specifically for your company, they will have to take on the responsibility of providing their own skill development programs internally.
Sure, it will cost money, but it will be money well spent, with the payoff coming through the longevity and sustainability of the organizations who take these roles on.
It's time business stepped up to the plate, and took on the responsibility for developing their own workforce.
The education system in North America is hamstrung by a system that does not value a trades education, bound by out-of-date curriculum, and fears of retribution by parents, if little Johnny or Judy are provided with educational choices that do NOT lead to at least a 4-year college or university degree.
Industry does not get off the hook, either. While the reasons for off-shoring manufacturing are many (ROI, profits, taxation are only some), many of the countries we off-shore to, like China, have superior education systems. North American businesses need to take responsibility for training their own employees on the job. They can't wait for the college system to develop custom job skills training specifically for your company, they will have to take on the responsibility of providing their own skill development programs internally.
Sure, it will cost money, but it will be money well spent, with the payoff coming through the longevity and sustainability of the organizations who take these roles on.
It's time business stepped up to the plate, and took on the responsibility for developing their own workforce.
4
Wow, 400 comments loaded w many first hand experiences and rock solid recommendations on how to remedy the issue..
US companies need to support initiatives to address this and use their influence w the current administration to leverage change...
Meanwhile POTUS seems too busy, promoting DeVos and watching Hannity and CNN, to read this invaluable piece by the "failing" NYT.
Sad
US companies need to support initiatives to address this and use their influence w the current administration to leverage change...
Meanwhile POTUS seems too busy, promoting DeVos and watching Hannity and CNN, to read this invaluable piece by the "failing" NYT.
Sad
5
When I was teaching, I had realized that the academic curriculum was just not a reasonable goal for too many students. Sorry, but analyzing Shakespeare is not needed for most of the population. The direction of removing shop classes and similar hands on courses has continued due to funding cuts and a lack of a perceived need. The current voucher or charter school push will not solve any of this type of problem with the US education system. Legislatures and administrative sections of teaching need to understand that education should be tuned so students can achieve on multiple levels varying skills--with the long-term job market in focus. The choice needed is one of learning what skills the students have and providing a path to using them after graduation.
Coming from family with quite a few craft workers, I tried to encourage students that getting one's hands dirty and calloused is a good thing with both financial rewards and personal enjoyment. This article certainly is pointing in the correct direction. It is doubtful, however, that this type of education will be implemented on a large enough scale with current "thinking" in place.
Coming from family with quite a few craft workers, I tried to encourage students that getting one's hands dirty and calloused is a good thing with both financial rewards and personal enjoyment. This article certainly is pointing in the correct direction. It is doubtful, however, that this type of education will be implemented on a large enough scale with current "thinking" in place.
9
I didn't understand why parents were so into sending their kids to college/university for better paying jobs. Probably, another marketing and recruiting scheme evangelized by professional recruiting and PR agencies. Colleges/universities are for higher learning if individuals are eager to independently enlighten themselves about life and the world and how they could contribute to making a better community and society as better-educated, leading citizens. Anyone should be able to function well and succeed in their chosen careers with a high school diploma from any public school or an equivalent. Our "money, money, money" materialism and growth-driven society created a monster out of our otherwise fine higher education institution system in the world that has prided in emphasizing integrity, social consciousness & responsibility, intellect, freedom of thought and speech, humanitarianism, humanism, cosmopolitanism, curiosity, egalitarian beliefs, history, adaptation to change, social transformation, problem solving, big ideas, and so on. Higher learning is for personal, intellectual enrichment, not for careerism, in which sense college/university is not for everyone. Remember while public university sizes were growing fast, tuition hike was also steep. It's for-profit commercialism and corporatism and doesn't care about educating great minds and caring citizens or training great leaders. So, parents, educators, and administrators, wake up and look around.
Dear NYT: Great story. Few Americans are aware of the perspective this article brings to light. Question: Why isn't on the front page?
7
It was on the front page for several hours.
1
Thanks for the correction! I missed it.
Beautiful to see some people understanding the problem. I have said for 30+ years that trying to send everyone to college for a traditional liberal arts educational is futile and cruel. Lowering standards in K-12 to make sure everyone feels good and gets into college is counterproductive. I am not an educator so I won't pretend to know when it is best to transition the majority of young people into more apprenticeship type education and where it should be done (in school or at the workplace) and for how many years. But I do know that if you don't do something other than what is going on now, all you get is millions of angry, bitter, scared people. P.S. We should keep the American practice of accepting someone, if they so desire, to get the training and education to do something other than what they are doing (with corporate and government support). Matter of fact in the future everyone will need this, Ph.D.'s, M.D.'s, high school drop outs, etc.
8
S.W. Hubbard wrote:
"Also not covered here is the "third rail" no one wants to mention: some people aren't smart. I'm not talking about poorly educated, or under-motivated, or lacking opportunity. I'm talking about people without the intellectual capacity to learn material above a sixth-grade level. These people used to dig coal and lay railroad track or work in non-automated factories. What will we do with them in the information economy? I really don't have an answer to that one, but we do need a plan."
This is true. And it is true that no one dares to mention it.
The National Assessment of Adult Literacy test provides some interesting data to consider: 85% of adults cannot interpret a bus schedule accurately. 97% of adults cannot calculate the cost of carpeting a room accurately, if given the room dimensions and a carpet price list.
A recent article described a good job in one particular modern factory: you needed calculus, trigonometry, and computer programming skills to cope with set up requirements for the robots that were doing the actual work.
What percent of us could do this I wonder. No matter HOW much college you have had. My point is, when 97% of people can't calculate the cost of carpeting a living room, you cannot blame 'poor education'. No, people simply have these inherent limits. Most of us, anyway.
"College for everyone" was always a pipe dream that wished away these limits. So yes, we desperately need realistic apprenticeship programs.
"Also not covered here is the "third rail" no one wants to mention: some people aren't smart. I'm not talking about poorly educated, or under-motivated, or lacking opportunity. I'm talking about people without the intellectual capacity to learn material above a sixth-grade level. These people used to dig coal and lay railroad track or work in non-automated factories. What will we do with them in the information economy? I really don't have an answer to that one, but we do need a plan."
This is true. And it is true that no one dares to mention it.
The National Assessment of Adult Literacy test provides some interesting data to consider: 85% of adults cannot interpret a bus schedule accurately. 97% of adults cannot calculate the cost of carpeting a room accurately, if given the room dimensions and a carpet price list.
A recent article described a good job in one particular modern factory: you needed calculus, trigonometry, and computer programming skills to cope with set up requirements for the robots that were doing the actual work.
What percent of us could do this I wonder. No matter HOW much college you have had. My point is, when 97% of people can't calculate the cost of carpeting a living room, you cannot blame 'poor education'. No, people simply have these inherent limits. Most of us, anyway.
"College for everyone" was always a pipe dream that wished away these limits. So yes, we desperately need realistic apprenticeship programs.
13
I continue to be fascinated by how gullible some people can be. Did ANYONE holding themselves out to be DOING a National Assessment of Adult Literacy ever talk to you? Anyone you know? They never spoke to or contacted me or anyone I know.
The number assertions in that 2 sentence paragraph are ridiculous. What is saddest about about the statements is the low quality of the LOGIC offered.
You start with one UNVERIFIED pair of population statistics and then try to argue that the vast majority of the nation is STUPID. To then pile on top a revealing reference to those who did the physical work of building the nation's infrastructure, you expose how little you have read and experienced.
Now its quiet true that the Needs of the economy have long out distanced the general offerings in America's Public Education; but, it wasn't always so. A careful look at the State's SUPPORT for California's EDUCATION SYSTEM and the decisions made by voters/legislators can give you a much clearer understanding of what is actually happening.
It is a classic mistake to BLAMING THE VICTIMS of others unethical behavior for their difficulties. You can do better, with a little thought
The number assertions in that 2 sentence paragraph are ridiculous. What is saddest about about the statements is the low quality of the LOGIC offered.
You start with one UNVERIFIED pair of population statistics and then try to argue that the vast majority of the nation is STUPID. To then pile on top a revealing reference to those who did the physical work of building the nation's infrastructure, you expose how little you have read and experienced.
Now its quiet true that the Needs of the economy have long out distanced the general offerings in America's Public Education; but, it wasn't always so. A careful look at the State's SUPPORT for California's EDUCATION SYSTEM and the decisions made by voters/legislators can give you a much clearer understanding of what is actually happening.
It is a classic mistake to BLAMING THE VICTIMS of others unethical behavior for their difficulties. You can do better, with a little thought
2
"But apprenticeships never caught on, relegated to a second-class career track as college enrollment ballooned in the 1960s and ’70s.."
This is patently untrue. Especially in the metal trades, e.g., tool & Diemaking, Mold-making, Machinist positions, etc. were all dependant on taking unskilled labor and turning them into highly paid tradesmen - the best on Earth.
Job recruits could start at the bottom, with the grunt work, under the watchful eye of one or more journeymen who were loosely responsible for keeping their apprentices on the straight & narrow. Companies generally paid for schooling (at night). An apprentice could earn a living wage while on the way into upper-middle class wage earners.
Chicago during the 60s and 70s was the metal stamping capital of the world. Any kid with mechanical aptitude could find a job and make progress. I myself walked into a factory after quitting college in my sophomore year. Within 6 months I was making more money than my former Microbiology professor -and she had a PhD.
I made a good living in the metal trades. When I was laid off of my last job in 2005, I was making $34.00 an hour, with healthcare and life insurance, etc. Those jobs are now paying in the realm of $15 an hour if you're lucky to find one. They have all gone overseas and the hundreds of mom & pop tool shops are never coming back.
But anyone telling you the apprenticeship system was never implemented successfully in the U.S. is selling you a bill of goods.
This is patently untrue. Especially in the metal trades, e.g., tool & Diemaking, Mold-making, Machinist positions, etc. were all dependant on taking unskilled labor and turning them into highly paid tradesmen - the best on Earth.
Job recruits could start at the bottom, with the grunt work, under the watchful eye of one or more journeymen who were loosely responsible for keeping their apprentices on the straight & narrow. Companies generally paid for schooling (at night). An apprentice could earn a living wage while on the way into upper-middle class wage earners.
Chicago during the 60s and 70s was the metal stamping capital of the world. Any kid with mechanical aptitude could find a job and make progress. I myself walked into a factory after quitting college in my sophomore year. Within 6 months I was making more money than my former Microbiology professor -and she had a PhD.
I made a good living in the metal trades. When I was laid off of my last job in 2005, I was making $34.00 an hour, with healthcare and life insurance, etc. Those jobs are now paying in the realm of $15 an hour if you're lucky to find one. They have all gone overseas and the hundreds of mom & pop tool shops are never coming back.
But anyone telling you the apprenticeship system was never implemented successfully in the U.S. is selling you a bill of goods.
8
Why would Seimens even think of gong to N.C. Didn't they research the educational standards of the state. Low wage states produce low wage workers who work simple jobs.
8
Tax breaks, no unions and other incentives from the state government. But, to your point, they may be just realizing this issue.... Hasn't BMW had a plant there for some time longer ?
3
I work at Housatonic Community College in Bridgeport CT. We have a manufacturing program (one of 4 community colleges in CT). We have 100% placement rate for the program. We have had to ask business not to try to hire the students before they get the 2 year certificate (federal money is involved). The need is real; the solution plain.
7
I sense it is "Tom" himself touting from FL, and by-gosh the not subtle message seems on-point (if that's the correct idiomatic expression).
Having lived and worked in Germany and Japan I can attest to what the article says. On my home leave trips back to the US I was always amazed at the general disdain Americans have for education and the trades. Those that disdain education do not prepare their children for the workforce. Those that disdain the trades push their children to college to major in ....not sure! One son of a friend lingered in college for 7 years! Another refused to go to college and attended a culinary school becoming a successful chef. Yet another child of an acquaintance wants to become an electrician but his mother keeps pushing him to go to college. What is wrong with this picture? Focus on the child - a trade is respectable. As for college - prepare your child to know what he or she wants to do while in and after college; have a goal.
11
Well said !
The article claims that a 9th grade education is what is necessary to obtain an apprenticeship for this company. That IS less than a high school education. Then stating in the same article that a high school education is not sufficient is..I don't know...wrong? If our public schools are that pathetic that young adults cannot obtain an apprenticeship because they can neither communicate nor understand beyond a 9th grade education then the answer is not TWO MORE YEARS OF COLLEGE! The answer is educate the children better! Start them in a BOCES program, a vocational training program for technologies as well as plumbing, electrical, construction, etc. during their freshman or sophomore year of high school. It is not that difficult to figure out. We know where the future is headed so let's get the ball rolling and STOP with the damn politics!
5
This article is definitely misleading. The offshoring of minimal skill manufacturing has created a skilled jobs market in America that does not represent the countries labor pool.
China unskilled labor percentage; 72%
United States unskilled percentage: 58%
Taking into consideration the vast size of the Chinese Labor pool and the offshoring of virtually all common consumer goods indicates that the problem in America is underutilization of it's population (high unemployment). This allows corporations to enjoy an artificially low wage market thru high unemployment.
As a retired Tool and Die Maker I can tell you that indeed automation has affected the skilled labor market. But the job loss and living standard drop America has experienced in the last 40 years was deliberate and is directly tied to the offshoring of vast numbers of jobs. What American corporations want now is cheap skilled labor. This is the basis of this article.
China unskilled labor percentage; 72%
United States unskilled percentage: 58%
Taking into consideration the vast size of the Chinese Labor pool and the offshoring of virtually all common consumer goods indicates that the problem in America is underutilization of it's population (high unemployment). This allows corporations to enjoy an artificially low wage market thru high unemployment.
As a retired Tool and Die Maker I can tell you that indeed automation has affected the skilled labor market. But the job loss and living standard drop America has experienced in the last 40 years was deliberate and is directly tied to the offshoring of vast numbers of jobs. What American corporations want now is cheap skilled labor. This is the basis of this article.
6
I understand this may have been your experience but that is not what I see where I work. We need skilled workers who are problem solvers who will evolve with changes in precision manufacturing. It pays well.
4
As part of a Trade Adjustment Assistance Community College Career Training (TAACCCT) grant in Pennsylvania, this article hits home. Students are given false or bad advice when it comes to community college. The world sees people who make things and work with their hands as grunts and laborers, when in reality they are achieving family sustaining wages with little to no student loan debt.
If you are a Pennsylvania resident, I encourage you to visit our website www.pathcareers.org to learn about how career pathways still allow students to earn a great wage without a 4 year degree.
If you are a Pennsylvania resident, I encourage you to visit our website www.pathcareers.org to learn about how career pathways still allow students to earn a great wage without a 4 year degree.
3
Question 1: How high do you want the box lifted?
2
A high school education, the ticket to middle class life a century ago, has long since ceased to be that. This country must think it terms of at least 14 years of free public education, the last two years being either college courses or trade school. Both tracks can, and often are, offered in community colleges.
States need to step up to the plate and make sure these programs are fully funded and available to students at no cost.
In addition, attitudes about math much change. There are far too many innumerate people in this country. Innumeracy is just a large a handicap as illiteracy.
States need to step up to the plate and make sure these programs are fully funded and available to students at no cost.
In addition, attitudes about math much change. There are far too many innumerate people in this country. Innumeracy is just a large a handicap as illiteracy.
4
A high school degree should be enough. We need to educate our high schoolers better.
4
To borrow a phrase:
Time and tide and technology wait for no man.
With a tip of the hat to Geoffrey Chaucer...
Time and tide and technology wait for no man.
With a tip of the hat to Geoffrey Chaucer...
4
Clearly you are out of touch, the educators of today are using materials that were designed for the industrial revolution at the turn of the century. Now we are in the midst of a technological revolution one which our elected leaders, be it local, state , or federal miss and have dropped the ball.
Sure we can give big tax breaks to the very rich, and corporate tax breaks to corporations that already pay between 15-18% while stashing 2 trillion offshore. Then restructure corporate taxes to give them even more. Under the guise of they will have more money to create more jobs, which didn't work in Reagan's day and won't today.
To believe that teaching high school teachers to teach better, is just plain stupid. They can only teach the curriculum the government gives, and that hasn't changed in over 100 years. Every child should have a laptop at school, and be taught math, sciences, coding, etc, etc. They will face a world in which automation will be king, so those only need a high school diploma are gone.
And if you don't believe me believe this, in 2016 the US produced more goods than it has in years, with 1/3 the workforce, why AUTOMATION. And if you still doubt it, here
https://alfred.stlouisfed.org
Sure we can give big tax breaks to the very rich, and corporate tax breaks to corporations that already pay between 15-18% while stashing 2 trillion offshore. Then restructure corporate taxes to give them even more. Under the guise of they will have more money to create more jobs, which didn't work in Reagan's day and won't today.
To believe that teaching high school teachers to teach better, is just plain stupid. They can only teach the curriculum the government gives, and that hasn't changed in over 100 years. Every child should have a laptop at school, and be taught math, sciences, coding, etc, etc. They will face a world in which automation will be king, so those only need a high school diploma are gone.
And if you don't believe me believe this, in 2016 the US produced more goods than it has in years, with 1/3 the workforce, why AUTOMATION. And if you still doubt it, here
https://alfred.stlouisfed.org
6
One of the biggest problems is that many people in the US simply don't value education, and tend to view people with advanced education and degrees as "liberal" or "elitist".
Then their kids, indoctrinated with those attitudes, go through K-12 and (surprise, surprise) they don't do the work, they don't study math and English because it's not relevant, and they prefer texting, partying, sports, and video games to actually getting an education.
Suddenly, they "graduate"... and find despite attending school they're still functionally illiterate and that no one is willing to hire them.
We now have generations of people who simply aren't qualified to participate in the modern workplace. Worse, they blame immigrants and corporations and anti-discrimination and regulations for taking away "their" jobs...
News flash folks, it's not "them"...
Then their kids, indoctrinated with those attitudes, go through K-12 and (surprise, surprise) they don't do the work, they don't study math and English because it's not relevant, and they prefer texting, partying, sports, and video games to actually getting an education.
Suddenly, they "graduate"... and find despite attending school they're still functionally illiterate and that no one is willing to hire them.
We now have generations of people who simply aren't qualified to participate in the modern workplace. Worse, they blame immigrants and corporations and anti-discrimination and regulations for taking away "their" jobs...
News flash folks, it's not "them"...
39
Take the money Tyrant Trump wants to waste on his vanity wall (that he WON'T get Mexico to pay for) and spend it on training schools for technology-driven manufacturing jobs. A solution that's such a no-brainer Republicans will immediately be opposed to it. It ceaselessly depresses me that the Democratic party can message this coherently, effectively and winningly.
10
And unskilled immigrants aren't getting these jobs either. Take the money we'll waste on a wall and spend it on education, training, and retraining.
These companies will get the workers they need, our people will get the jobs they want, and those people will be a tax asset instead of a deficit.
These companies will get the workers they need, our people will get the jobs they want, and those people will be a tax asset instead of a deficit.
4
Having sent two children through one of the more reputable public education systems in the US, I was at times discouraged by the amount of impractical, useless material they were not only forced to learn, but to master. Much of one school year was spent on CA missions, preparing presentations and making models (mostly done by parents) of an assigned one. Nothing against studying heritage, but it should not take precedence over acquiring life skills....
Education is filled with this. How much material did we have to study and pass exams with ROTE to simply earn a piece of paper (aka college diploma) which allows us to enter into our field of study ?
As an engineer the linear regression buttons on my HP11c were most worn from 30 years of use..
Education is filled with this. How much material did we have to study and pass exams with ROTE to simply earn a piece of paper (aka college diploma) which allows us to enter into our field of study ?
As an engineer the linear regression buttons on my HP11c were most worn from 30 years of use..
5
why were the parents doing the assignments? that's part of the problem : children aren't being allowed to achieve (or not) on their own.
2
What is the big deal.
They still had two qualified candidates for each job.
Good for the people that got the jobs.
Although one does wonder why only 15% of the test takers could pass a ninth grade test.
It is not like they required a high school degree.
They still had two qualified candidates for each job.
Good for the people that got the jobs.
Although one does wonder why only 15% of the test takers could pass a ninth grade test.
It is not like they required a high school degree.
2
A young friend considering an electrical apprenticeship in the Seattle area found he would have to apprentice at HALF THE WAGE he was already earning in residential renovation and construction, for FOUR YEARS!
And we wonder why we have a shortage of skilled workers. Appears there is a convenient relationship between the trade unions that benefit from limiting available workers and employers who enjoy lower wage costs with apprentices who do the same work.
The result is that a lot of skilled trades work is done by unskilled workers.
And we wonder why we have a shortage of skilled workers. Appears there is a convenient relationship between the trade unions that benefit from limiting available workers and employers who enjoy lower wage costs with apprentices who do the same work.
The result is that a lot of skilled trades work is done by unskilled workers.
2
what you have described are the unions reaction to the rush to the lowest in free market pressures pay the lowest wage possible
2
The lowest wages possible relative to competition for employees and increased profit. Markets rise and fall. You "forgot" that. Even Marx modified his view when capitalist wages increased during his lifetime.
1
Apprentice programs in the US are manipulated to limit the number of journeymen by requiring long apprenticeships at low wages.
A young friend considering an electrician apprenticeship was already earning $30 an hour in home construction hesitated at the 4 years of pay at half
A young friend considering an electrician apprenticeship was already earning $30 an hour in home construction hesitated at the 4 years of pay at half
3
There's a discussion in my workplace about so many foreigners in the IT industry. But, there are many graduates with degrees can’t fit themselves into any profession. If the system did not prepare us for the challenges why blame the foreigners. Colleges are more interested in giving loans then preparing the next generation with necessary skills. It is more appropriate now that there is a ban on immigrants. Also there is too much bias even with necessary skills foreigners and non whites are generally shunned and excluded, that shrinks the pool. Siemens, who said you need an education for the project. A smart manager can train a high school graduate to any function needed. Be open, intelligent minds are not necessarily have a string of degrees behind their name
3
That guy was *top 10* in his class with a 3.75 GPA? How many kids were in the class, 15?
4
Alex, that kid you are cutting down is my son! He is a very bright young man unlike you to make such a snob comment with any knowledge of the matter. For your information, there were actually 125 in his graduation class at the School of Math, Engineering, Technology and Science, which has a very difficult curriculum that is mostly College level their senior year. Also, by they way, he is a member if the National Honors Society, Beta Club and the only class member to be elected to student counsel all four years of High School by his peers. He was also a lead and founding member of their Robotics team that was formed his Junior year and they advanced to the National Championship on their first try with his leadership. And Alex, I would gladly have my son debate you on your topic of choice and I am sure he would win hands down. By the way, he has a nice big award for being the best debater in his school along with a few medals in basketball as well. The whole moral to this Alex is be careful where you throw stones!
8
So, Trump supporters who want their jobs back are missing the point. Even if more jobs come back, they will no longer be qualified for most of those jobs. They want to blame 'liberals' and urban dwellers for taking their jobs away, when it is they - the less educated but hard working blue collar jobless - who have let themselves down by not keeping current with the requirements of the jobs they want. Toyota has the right idea: make it incredibly easy to get college accreditation while actually earning a living at Toyota. Stop boohooing: find out the requirements for the job you want and go get them. No, it won't be easy. It will be really hard, but nothing worthwhile is easy.
15
Great Article, I agree with the premise and I want to add my experience. I am a Canadian and I work in as a scientist in pharma. Even though I am employed with a great job, I am always constantly learning. I am taking additional courses online for programming, full stack development, machine and deep learning. The latter requires me to recall linear algebra and calculus. Learning does not end when you get a job.
11
Of course, sometimes you have to work so many hours you cannot find time or energy to get the additional training you might want. That's presuming that you even have the money to pay for it. Being disadvantaged is not necessarily the fault of any individual. If you live in a downscale family in a downscale neighborhood and have a downscale school system, chances are you're going to be raking crumbs for much of your life.
2
Of course all individual and circumstances are different. Creating easier access to education, from post secondary to vocational to programming bootcamp. All these learning opportunities are available. I've taken free online courses through coursea and udacity; computer vision, javacript, python coding are some I've taken for free from those sites. With this basis of programming experience, I'm now taking deep learning and neural networks. Take small steps and move on to bigger things. Khan academy has great refresher courses such as calculus. There is plenty of blame to go around, but it doesnt help the individual at all.
1
> If you live in a downscale family in a downscale neighborhood and have a downscale school system, chances are you're going to be raking crumbs for much of your life.
Chances are not causes. Man's independent mind is the basic cause. You did build that. it doesnt take a village. Social determinism is a pseudo-scientific rationalization of the hatred and terror of man's independent mind.
Chances are not causes. Man's independent mind is the basic cause. You did build that. it doesnt take a village. Social determinism is a pseudo-scientific rationalization of the hatred and terror of man's independent mind.
1
One other thought:
I spent the last two years of my Navy enlistment (1967 - 71) as a computer specialist (Data Processor as the Navy called us...). My group put together a SOTA computer center aboard First Fleet's flagship so that First Fleet could have at any time while at sea the same information he could have as if he were ashore.
My last duty, as senior enlisted (technically, not pay grade...) with the most experience with the system, was to write an operator's manual. I gave my finished work to my (Master) Chief Petty Officer and (Commander) Division Officer. Both thought the manual was excellent, but the DO said he needed a re-write for those with a 7th grade reading level. I asked why and he responded that when the war was over he would not have the luxury of having 3/4 of his enlisted personnel with college degrees. Prescient...
I spent the last two years of my Navy enlistment (1967 - 71) as a computer specialist (Data Processor as the Navy called us...). My group put together a SOTA computer center aboard First Fleet's flagship so that First Fleet could have at any time while at sea the same information he could have as if he were ashore.
My last duty, as senior enlisted (technically, not pay grade...) with the most experience with the system, was to write an operator's manual. I gave my finished work to my (Master) Chief Petty Officer and (Commander) Division Officer. Both thought the manual was excellent, but the DO said he needed a re-write for those with a 7th grade reading level. I asked why and he responded that when the war was over he would not have the luxury of having 3/4 of his enlisted personnel with college degrees. Prescient...
8
As noted European nations have been doing something similar since WW II. The system required the participation of government, private industry and unions.
In the US this system would be called socialism, and, therefore, condemned and damned.
In the US this system would be called socialism, and, therefore, condemned and damned.
4
The relation between socialism and prosperity is coincidental, not causal, regardless of the precision of measuring coincidences. Man's independent mind is the cause of prosperity.
Stephen, you are looking at creativity, innovation and prosperity from the sense of your culture.
The nordic countries have a social democracy. (Mostly, capitalist with a strong public sector and very good state services). The Netherlands, and Finland are similar. All are way ahead of the US in terms of prosperity, Norway are almost double, education, and wellbeing. Denmark is the happiest country in the world. All of these countries believe in the community. They have a sense of the collective. The same is the case in Asia. China, will suprass the US by 2027, and already have surpassed the US in terms of purchasing power.
To understand ourselves and our contrary it is very useful to look at others. I am saying this as an organisational psychologist.
Individualism produces lack of trust. Hence the political problems in the US. A lack of trust is detrimental for economies and society. Economies and health declines, and violence increases. Oh, ya, all those countries I mentioned are far far more equal, with only a very small minority below the poverty line. Unlike the US, who has 24 million children under the poverty line. Social democracy does well seems to deliver the best outcomes.
The nordic countries have a social democracy. (Mostly, capitalist with a strong public sector and very good state services). The Netherlands, and Finland are similar. All are way ahead of the US in terms of prosperity, Norway are almost double, education, and wellbeing. Denmark is the happiest country in the world. All of these countries believe in the community. They have a sense of the collective. The same is the case in Asia. China, will suprass the US by 2027, and already have surpassed the US in terms of purchasing power.
To understand ourselves and our contrary it is very useful to look at others. I am saying this as an organisational psychologist.
Individualism produces lack of trust. Hence the political problems in the US. A lack of trust is detrimental for economies and society. Economies and health declines, and violence increases. Oh, ya, all those countries I mentioned are far far more equal, with only a very small minority below the poverty line. Unlike the US, who has 24 million children under the poverty line. Social democracy does well seems to deliver the best outcomes.
3
Could you please explain how they got the 3rd angle projection in question 3. There is nothing round about that object.
1
Remember "A Nation at Risk?" When was that - 30 years ago? At least? We have to face the uncomfortable fact that the elite who run this country don't WANT an educated populace. How would they keep the rubes voting against their own economic self-interest? If the government and the billionaires wanted the general populace to be educated to a high degree they would spend the money to do it! Funny, there's always $3 or $4 trillion laying around to fund endless, unbudgeted, unplanned wars.
6
The intellectual elites who run this country created Progressive education to stop people from putting two and two together. They call it anti-ideological Pragmatism. Business elites get their ideas from their Progressive education, thus virtually all are anti-ideological Pragmatists.
Stephen you seem to have a chip on your shoulder.
Let me educate you. The republicans have been very hostile to education. Just like you they believe educated people to be elites. Now we know for sure from research that republicans prefer more simplistic thinking. What causes this preference is generally a lower IQ. Yes, it is very easy to demonstrate that liberals have higher IQs. Indeed higher IQ at 10 predicts liberal attitudes at 30.
Liberals score higher on openness to experience (intellectual curiosity), whereas republicans (Right Wing Authoritorians) RWA score lower on openness to experience. They are more closed minded. The personality trait openness to experience is associated with IQ, the correlation is 0.30. So liberals curiosity means that they acquire more knowledge. We also know that higher IQ is associated with low religiousness. So republicans tend to have a lower IQ and be religious. Hence republicans are hostile to education, and your comment is a perfect example of this hostility. Thanks for making my point.
If you need all the references for what I say. let me know. I am an organisational/social psychologist. I research and work in private industry.
Let me educate you. The republicans have been very hostile to education. Just like you they believe educated people to be elites. Now we know for sure from research that republicans prefer more simplistic thinking. What causes this preference is generally a lower IQ. Yes, it is very easy to demonstrate that liberals have higher IQs. Indeed higher IQ at 10 predicts liberal attitudes at 30.
Liberals score higher on openness to experience (intellectual curiosity), whereas republicans (Right Wing Authoritorians) RWA score lower on openness to experience. They are more closed minded. The personality trait openness to experience is associated with IQ, the correlation is 0.30. So liberals curiosity means that they acquire more knowledge. We also know that higher IQ is associated with low religiousness. So republicans tend to have a lower IQ and be religious. Hence republicans are hostile to education, and your comment is a perfect example of this hostility. Thanks for making my point.
If you need all the references for what I say. let me know. I am an organisational/social psychologist. I research and work in private industry.
6
Personal attack and coincidences dont refute the long Progressive domination of education and the resulting terror of man's independent mind as guide to fundamentals. See John Dewey's explicit, Progressive hatred of man's independent mind. Conservatives flee into God and Progressives into Holy Consensus and Omnipotent Govt. Progressive education, ie, nuanced, scholarly worms, evades man's need of a rationally realistic framework for his mind's focus ,thru his senses, onto concrete reality. Man needs to know the forest for the trees to reason from experience and plan the future.
Often, corporations would be better off in terms of quality and production to look at Canada if they are looking for a more educated workforce. It's not the US worker's fault, but more a product of poor teaching, irrelevant curriculum electives (golf, rap lyrics, etc., as examples).
Some US districts have "good schools", while others are hell holes of violence, neglect, crime. Things are more evenly balanced in other western nations.
Then of course you have the problem of degree mill colleges turning out unemployable young adults who are shocked that they wasted their time and taxpayer funded education subsidies only to enrich con men in some instances. Some of the educational institutions that advertise on afternoon television come to mind...
Some US districts have "good schools", while others are hell holes of violence, neglect, crime. Things are more evenly balanced in other western nations.
Then of course you have the problem of degree mill colleges turning out unemployable young adults who are shocked that they wasted their time and taxpayer funded education subsidies only to enrich con men in some instances. Some of the educational institutions that advertise on afternoon television come to mind...
3
We should stop blaming teachers. As in any field some are more skilled than others but, they can only teach the curriculum provided and have no control over the culture/circumstances in which students live.
2
.
it's not clear to me the exact relationship between 'education/college' and 'skills'
for example, this article leads off with a discussion of the Siemens plant, where it says 'fewer than 15 percent of the applicants were able to pass a reading, writing and math screening test geared toward a ninth-grade education' .... so, it would appear these applicants lack the SKILLS necessary for the job, not the EDUCATION.
A meaningless distinction? I think not. "Education / College" is a very diffuse experience that does WAY more than attempt to simply teach skills. Indeed, there is absolutely no guarantee that if you go to college, you will learn 'skills'. You may simply graduate having accumulated the 180 credits, all via a C average, which means you may have learned next to nothing.
No, this is NOT about 'education' or 'job training' or anything else, other than SKILLS. Frankly, pretty basic skills.
Now, unless you think, mistakenly, that 'skills' are only learned via classroom education, you are sorely misinformed.
.
it's not clear to me the exact relationship between 'education/college' and 'skills'
for example, this article leads off with a discussion of the Siemens plant, where it says 'fewer than 15 percent of the applicants were able to pass a reading, writing and math screening test geared toward a ninth-grade education' .... so, it would appear these applicants lack the SKILLS necessary for the job, not the EDUCATION.
A meaningless distinction? I think not. "Education / College" is a very diffuse experience that does WAY more than attempt to simply teach skills. Indeed, there is absolutely no guarantee that if you go to college, you will learn 'skills'. You may simply graduate having accumulated the 180 credits, all via a C average, which means you may have learned next to nothing.
No, this is NOT about 'education' or 'job training' or anything else, other than SKILLS. Frankly, pretty basic skills.
Now, unless you think, mistakenly, that 'skills' are only learned via classroom education, you are sorely misinformed.
.
3
Quality education everywhere shd be through various means. When we see apprenticeship as a path for those unfit for the classroom, that's where the problem begins. Apprentices and academicians need to forge a single path to move humanity forward.
2
I really wanted a job where I could move around and tried the vocational extension program for a semester and was bored out of my mind. I pursued a bachelor's degree, did a stint in the military, and finally got a master's degree but wish I could have found a high tech vocational job that didn't wear out my body or let me be creative (wood or metal working). I also lived in Germany for three years and saw how incredible the apprenticeship programs were over there and was suitably envious, knowing we had little in the way high skill apprenticeship program in the U.S. Its not helping the U.S. worker when your choice is either to work at McDonalds or some assembly line job for a pittance or spend 10s of thousand on a four year degree that still might leave you in a low paying job. I noticed my four year degree wasn't helping me much, which is why I got a Master's Degree and have been sitting on my fat butt, working unhappily at my computer for 25 years, wishing there were better choices out there when in was in my late teens, twenties and thirities besides a four or six year college education.
13
For this to work well, American industry and business has to begin thinking of its employees as an asset and not just as a cost factor. And American schools have to see themselves in part as partners of industry and not as independent from them. But that also means that American politicians and would-be politicians have to release some of their grip on the educational system.
11
FYI. we are doing this in my area of Ipstate NY. We have a PTECH program, third year, that maintains a very close relationship to the business community in a mentorship/internship areas. We've also been bringing businesses and business needs into our local Community College. We're proud of these programs and invite The NY Times to find out more. Contact HFM BOCES.
I agree that there needs to be a distinction between what we call the traditional 4-yr college path and a 2-year college/apprenticeship. I firmly do believe that the traditional 4-yr college path was never meant to solely prepare students for the workforce--it was to open students' minds, get them to think about things that they may not have considered otherwise, etc. Students, of course, also learn a lot of skills along the way like critical thinking, writing, presenting, etc.
2-year community colleges, on the other hand, do offer a lot more practical training that was usually taken up by companies for specific jobs. I think these are fantastic. I know a lot of hospital techs who are making close to 6 figures because they have an associate's degree in radiological sciences.
These differences are not so clear for a high school student when they're considering their options. We need to do a better job at relaying this information to high school students and really asking them what they might want out of their career. It is a tall order to ask a 17 or 18 year old this but it is something that they need to think about, there's no way of getting around it.
2-year community colleges, on the other hand, do offer a lot more practical training that was usually taken up by companies for specific jobs. I think these are fantastic. I know a lot of hospital techs who are making close to 6 figures because they have an associate's degree in radiological sciences.
These differences are not so clear for a high school student when they're considering their options. We need to do a better job at relaying this information to high school students and really asking them what they might want out of their career. It is a tall order to ask a 17 or 18 year old this but it is something that they need to think about, there's no way of getting around it.
5
College is not needed for most jobs. As a senior legal secretary and high school drop out, I was the person who answered questions, read foreign-language faxes to direct them to the correct person, and was told by the senior partner I worked for that I was the smartest legal secretary he'd ever met.
I had to explain the Ides of March to a college graduate one morning, but drew the line at explaining Caeser. I could get word processors to do anything and used Lotus, then Excel, daily. One attorney told me I'd never be smart enough to understand Excel without college. (I designed the Excel spreadsheet that split up the firm's profits.)
If someone needs to be told what classic literature they need to read, needs to learn about basic machines (as I recall, that was 1st or 2nd grade), fine. Spend a fortune sending them to college. It won't make them smart. I've known college graduates who didn't know the difference between a possum and a raccoon--for you city folks, they don't look anything alike, but don't mess with either. They bite and may be rabid.
Apprenticeships? I'm all for them. Basic tests of general knowledge? They're fine, because if someone who's 18 or 20 hasn't figured out levers and gravity, they should not work in a position that requires basic thought. Trade schools? By all means.
No one comes out of medical school or law school ready to work unsupervised. There is much more to learn. Continuing education is a must for most fields.
I had to explain the Ides of March to a college graduate one morning, but drew the line at explaining Caeser. I could get word processors to do anything and used Lotus, then Excel, daily. One attorney told me I'd never be smart enough to understand Excel without college. (I designed the Excel spreadsheet that split up the firm's profits.)
If someone needs to be told what classic literature they need to read, needs to learn about basic machines (as I recall, that was 1st or 2nd grade), fine. Spend a fortune sending them to college. It won't make them smart. I've known college graduates who didn't know the difference between a possum and a raccoon--for you city folks, they don't look anything alike, but don't mess with either. They bite and may be rabid.
Apprenticeships? I'm all for them. Basic tests of general knowledge? They're fine, because if someone who's 18 or 20 hasn't figured out levers and gravity, they should not work in a position that requires basic thought. Trade schools? By all means.
No one comes out of medical school or law school ready to work unsupervised. There is much more to learn. Continuing education is a must for most fields.
10
Dear Mr President,
We Americans are a bold, creative, industrious, and optimistic people. If you are reading this, please help focus our national dialogue on great ideas like loan-free two-year skills training for advanced manufacturing jobs, which we Americans can overwhelmingly agree on, instead of on wedge issues that divide us into ideological clans. Uniting us behind great ideas that serve the common good is something you as a political outsider may be uniquely qualified to do. Our nation's shared future depends on your taking the high road. Will you rise to the occasion?
We Americans are a bold, creative, industrious, and optimistic people. If you are reading this, please help focus our national dialogue on great ideas like loan-free two-year skills training for advanced manufacturing jobs, which we Americans can overwhelmingly agree on, instead of on wedge issues that divide us into ideological clans. Uniting us behind great ideas that serve the common good is something you as a political outsider may be uniquely qualified to do. Our nation's shared future depends on your taking the high road. Will you rise to the occasion?
8
Same problem in Australia. Nobody wants to get their hands dirty. Everybody wants to wear a tie/blouse and give idiotic Power Point presentations.
8
I know that needed trades used to be taught in American high schools. It was called Vocational Education.
What happened to that?
Why are so few American high school graduates able to do the modern jobs in modern manufacturing that use technology and computers?
I thought it was interesting that the young man in Charlotte, N.C., was one of the top 10 graduates at his high school. The U.S. is in trouble if ordinary, non-top 10 high school graduates cannot qualify for the Siemens jobs. It means our K12 education is badly broken.
We do not need charter schools with less qualified teachers to improve education in a
America. We do not need for-profit companies reducing money used to educate students, the money going instead for salaries for CEOs and managers at the for-profit charter companies. We need more money devoted to excellently qualified and certified teachers, a middle class salary for teachers, to attract some of the best people to teaching. I was appalled when I found out that the math teachers at my son's middle school did NOT have math degrees & were unqualified to teach math.
The more privatized K12 education becomes, the less money is actually spent on educating students. We do not need to teach religion in public schools. We need to teach math and science well. We need to make sure graduating students can read well, with good reading comprehension and vocabularies. Students need to know that studying, not cheating or goofing off , will get them a job.
What happened to that?
Why are so few American high school graduates able to do the modern jobs in modern manufacturing that use technology and computers?
I thought it was interesting that the young man in Charlotte, N.C., was one of the top 10 graduates at his high school. The U.S. is in trouble if ordinary, non-top 10 high school graduates cannot qualify for the Siemens jobs. It means our K12 education is badly broken.
We do not need charter schools with less qualified teachers to improve education in a
America. We do not need for-profit companies reducing money used to educate students, the money going instead for salaries for CEOs and managers at the for-profit charter companies. We need more money devoted to excellently qualified and certified teachers, a middle class salary for teachers, to attract some of the best people to teaching. I was appalled when I found out that the math teachers at my son's middle school did NOT have math degrees & were unqualified to teach math.
The more privatized K12 education becomes, the less money is actually spent on educating students. We do not need to teach religion in public schools. We need to teach math and science well. We need to make sure graduating students can read well, with good reading comprehension and vocabularies. Students need to know that studying, not cheating or goofing off , will get them a job.
9
I've always felt that the retraining promised to accompany NAFTA never happened. And coupled with the lack of funding for young people to attend college, the road is paved for the young offspring of wealthy parents from other nations, or from nations with free public higher education, to obtain H1-b worker visas, because "there were no qualified Americans" for that high paying job.
Instead of educating our own, someone has chosen to import our educated, since we then don't have to pay for our own to be educated.
Instead of educating our own, someone has chosen to import our educated, since we then don't have to pay for our own to be educated.
6
What this article discusses is combining technical education with craftsmanship to build a future, with continuing education as needed to keep one's skills up to date. It is a nuanced concept, to say the least.
Back when I practiced admiralty law, I saw my job as resolving disputes in a craftsmanlike way, based on the documents at hand and, sometimes, having to unearth more evidence of what happened to a cargo through eyewitness testimony and documents.
I respect the excellent mechanics who properly care for our cars, which are now largely computer-driven. I also respect plumbers and electricians.
In my retirement--which involves running a household with three adults and two dogs, I consider what I'm doing a craft and try to keep it satisfying.
It's all part of stewardship. For a good example, read Nevil Shute's "Round the Bend" (1951), see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Round_the_Bend_(novel)
Back when I practiced admiralty law, I saw my job as resolving disputes in a craftsmanlike way, based on the documents at hand and, sometimes, having to unearth more evidence of what happened to a cargo through eyewitness testimony and documents.
I respect the excellent mechanics who properly care for our cars, which are now largely computer-driven. I also respect plumbers and electricians.
In my retirement--which involves running a household with three adults and two dogs, I consider what I'm doing a craft and try to keep it satisfying.
It's all part of stewardship. For a good example, read Nevil Shute's "Round the Bend" (1951), see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Round_the_Bend_(novel)
2
In my homeland of Germany, master tradesmen are as respected and compensated, if not more so, as academics. As an engineering manager one of the things i would always impress upon my new-grad engineers is that they needed to respect machinists for their importance to the company. It would take me another lifetime to be able to do what they do.
I made many great friends and received compliments among the ranks of machinists for my engagement. Yet, I still would get calls from the shop complaining about the disrespectful, know-it-all junior engineer...
I made many great friends and received compliments among the ranks of machinists for my engagement. Yet, I still would get calls from the shop complaining about the disrespectful, know-it-all junior engineer...
17
Much of the issues can be traced back to the system. Comparatively, US teachers are respected less than in many other countries in the world. Add to that meager salaries, coupled with requirement for ever increasing prep hours from home and strictly enforced adherence to "standards". Not all the best and brightest are going into teaching...
Lee Iacocca summarized the situation well when he stated : "In a completely rational society, the best of us would be teachers and the rest of us would have to settle for something else"
School boards must do more to attract teachers that will raise the level of education so that kids can read at a 9th grade level in the 6th and 7th grade.
Lee Iacocca summarized the situation well when he stated : "In a completely rational society, the best of us would be teachers and the rest of us would have to settle for something else"
School boards must do more to attract teachers that will raise the level of education so that kids can read at a 9th grade level in the 6th and 7th grade.
13
I'd be happy with a 9th grade reading level in 9th or 10th grade. I had a 10th grade class where we read "The Prince." The teacher and I understood it. It's dense, but not terribly confusing.
Math? I had a math teacher put the quadratic formula (x= format) on the blackboard wrong. When two of us instantly pointed out the error, she told us we weren't supposed to know it yet. This was senior-year algebra. The rest of the class was, unfortunately, deeply confused.
This was a school system that brags about its academic achievements. My high school had the highest dropout rate in the county. Great schools.
Math? I had a math teacher put the quadratic formula (x= format) on the blackboard wrong. When two of us instantly pointed out the error, she told us we weren't supposed to know it yet. This was senior-year algebra. The rest of the class was, unfortunately, deeply confused.
This was a school system that brags about its academic achievements. My high school had the highest dropout rate in the county. Great schools.
3
The average salaries of US public K-12 teachers are actually the highest in the world, and not by a small margin. Money is not the problem.
2
As I can see here The Educational Disaster is spread in the majority of countries.
2
Mr Jeffrey J Selingo and Readers:
I think Germany includes significant labor representation on the boards of directors of many of its most productive companies. As a result, perhaps more cooperative, mutually reinforcing attitudes develop between management and labor at these companies.
During the last economic downturn, around 2010 in Germany, the unemployment rate was restrained by employees sharing time on jobs rather than through cutbacks only. In this way, valuable job skills were preserved among the labor force. And, the shortages in certain US labor specialties, including in the housing industry, which developed with the economic recovery, were not as prevalent in Germany as a result. It is these and other skilled shortages in the US, and the current lack of productivity growth, that are inflationary concerns of the Fed; although GDP growth in 2016 was a mild 1.6%, with 4th quarter GDP growth of 1.9%.
With the DOL's employment numbers for January (2017) set for release on Fri., Feb. 3, at 8:30 a.m., it will be interesting to observe the inertial effects, if any, on the job market of this modest GDP growth for the fourth quarter of 2017.
I think Germany includes significant labor representation on the boards of directors of many of its most productive companies. As a result, perhaps more cooperative, mutually reinforcing attitudes develop between management and labor at these companies.
During the last economic downturn, around 2010 in Germany, the unemployment rate was restrained by employees sharing time on jobs rather than through cutbacks only. In this way, valuable job skills were preserved among the labor force. And, the shortages in certain US labor specialties, including in the housing industry, which developed with the economic recovery, were not as prevalent in Germany as a result. It is these and other skilled shortages in the US, and the current lack of productivity growth, that are inflationary concerns of the Fed; although GDP growth in 2016 was a mild 1.6%, with 4th quarter GDP growth of 1.9%.
With the DOL's employment numbers for January (2017) set for release on Fri., Feb. 3, at 8:30 a.m., it will be interesting to observe the inertial effects, if any, on the job market of this modest GDP growth for the fourth quarter of 2017.
3
What is more important to any random community or even neighborhood?
A newly minted bachelors degree in English literature or, say, dance
Theory or art history OR a plumber or auto mechanic from a vocational
School??? I certainly know which I NEED more. No, I am not advocating
Universities as trade schools, but use common sense. If you wish to spend
Mega- thousands on school to end up working for minimum wage at a coffee shop, go for it. But please, don't whine and act bewildered later.
A newly minted bachelors degree in English literature or, say, dance
Theory or art history OR a plumber or auto mechanic from a vocational
School??? I certainly know which I NEED more. No, I am not advocating
Universities as trade schools, but use common sense. If you wish to spend
Mega- thousands on school to end up working for minimum wage at a coffee shop, go for it. But please, don't whine and act bewildered later.
8
In the PISA rankings that came out before Christmas, the US came close to last amongst OECD countries. For decades now, the US has paid scant attention to education.
The republicans have to shoulder most of the blame here. They appear to be openly hostile to education. It is quite common, too common, for republicans to disparage educated democrats/liberals as "elitist". FOX openly laugh at educated people.
There is now extensive evidence, Stankov (2009) published in the journal intelligence, that conservatives tend to have lower IQ than liberals, and so value education less. Republicans are also characterised by a preference for more simplistic and intuitive thinking, hence the importance of religion for republicans. It appears that republicans have rejected education as being ideologically adverse to its party. Education of course should be non partisan.
This knowledge is well known in social psychology, political psychology and in political science.
Jobs in the modern world call for high skills, even at the bottom. That Trump himself displays a very very simplistic style of thinking is an undoubted problem.
So many countries have passed out the US in maths and science that this will dramatically affect the US's competitiveness.
China, will in the next seven years have more universities in the worlds top 15 than the US. I look at research in economics, organisational psychology, and social psychology, and a growing amount of research is coming from China.
The republicans have to shoulder most of the blame here. They appear to be openly hostile to education. It is quite common, too common, for republicans to disparage educated democrats/liberals as "elitist". FOX openly laugh at educated people.
There is now extensive evidence, Stankov (2009) published in the journal intelligence, that conservatives tend to have lower IQ than liberals, and so value education less. Republicans are also characterised by a preference for more simplistic and intuitive thinking, hence the importance of religion for republicans. It appears that republicans have rejected education as being ideologically adverse to its party. Education of course should be non partisan.
This knowledge is well known in social psychology, political psychology and in political science.
Jobs in the modern world call for high skills, even at the bottom. That Trump himself displays a very very simplistic style of thinking is an undoubted problem.
So many countries have passed out the US in maths and science that this will dramatically affect the US's competitiveness.
China, will in the next seven years have more universities in the worlds top 15 than the US. I look at research in economics, organisational psychology, and social psychology, and a growing amount of research is coming from China.
13
One moment, please, if 9th grade reading, writing and math are the required skills for decent factory jobs, and only 15% of applicants qualified, it isn't the jobs that are gone, it isn't a lack of college access, it is that our free public education system is producing 85% illiterates. That may be more than adequate to keep Trump and the Republicans in political power but it isn't going to do diddly for this country's economic health or the paychecks of the 85%
38
That's not it.
I (and others similar) could read at the 9th Grade Level in the 6th or 7th Grade. Can't recall exactly, too long ago.
But you could blame Reagan (RIP), for he was POTUS back then.
I (and others similar) could read at the 9th Grade Level in the 6th or 7th Grade. Can't recall exactly, too long ago.
But you could blame Reagan (RIP), for he was POTUS back then.
4
I noticed that, too. If you need 9th grade, why do you need college?
A good friend's son could not read at the end of 2nd grade. She wanted him held back because if you can't read, you can manage little else. Teachers hadn't noticed he couldn't read--he was smart enough to hide it.
"Oh no. He won't be with his peers and it will upset him." How would he feel at 18 if he could not recognize his name when it was written?
She had to hire an attorney to have him repeat 2nd grade.
Many of our school systems are horrible.
"Oh no. He won't be with his peers and it will upset him." How would he feel at 18 if he could not recognize his name when it was written?
She had to hire an attorney to have him repeat 2nd grade.
Many of our school systems are horrible.
10
Trump's calls to to bring jobs back to the US (coal, steel, factory etc.) that simply no longer exist - as many comments here have mentioned. However, I'm not sure our president could comprehend this fact since the vast majority of his own employees are unskilled. He call his company "great"... I give him successful at best (and we can't really even be sure of that). The trump organization has not contributed any advance to society/technology/humanity other than being a large scale rental and entertainment provider. Great companies are innovative, change the lives of people, and further society as a whole. Trump himself is not educated. But you could argue he experienced a valuable apprenticeship through his father...
I grew up in a European country with a strong apprenticeship model. Higher education is not for everyone. While my classmates left school for apprenticeships at age 15 or 16, by the time the rest of us graduated from University, they had reached successful positions within their chosen fields and companies. Furthermore, they have unique job security as these firms invested in their education.
Compare this to the US where nearly everyone attends some form of higher education. Most who graduate with a bachelor's degree are still not educated - as they are completing largely useless, unfocused course work... Now they are 22, in debt, and most importantly still without any marketable skill.
If I owned a company - I would aggressively recruit apprentices
I grew up in a European country with a strong apprenticeship model. Higher education is not for everyone. While my classmates left school for apprenticeships at age 15 or 16, by the time the rest of us graduated from University, they had reached successful positions within their chosen fields and companies. Furthermore, they have unique job security as these firms invested in their education.
Compare this to the US where nearly everyone attends some form of higher education. Most who graduate with a bachelor's degree are still not educated - as they are completing largely useless, unfocused course work... Now they are 22, in debt, and most importantly still without any marketable skill.
If I owned a company - I would aggressively recruit apprentices
26
Fix the public k-9 first before launching the apprenticeship programs since most 10th graders don't even know how to read above 6th grade level. You can assign them this article in class but I doubt many have enough focus to even finish this short article since they're not used to anything longer than what's on their own Facebook pages or text messages. They don't have any respect for math and science if they aren't good at it and always ask when they'll ever use those skills. But everyone needs basic science and math skills in this information age now. There aren't too many good teachers that can inspire them either. The teachers grew up learning that college degrees are required because they needed master's degrees to get those teaching positions and think that debt is sometimes necessary. The public school institutions haven't changed for a while and they don't mean much anymore in this age. Apprenticeship would be amazing if high schoolers lived around those companies that offered it. But not every town or city has good economy and jobs are concentrated in cities and coasts, so I'm not sure how it'll happen unless companies open factories everywhere people are.
6
In a book I am reading right now "The Math Myth" by Andrew Hacker, who I remember as being a conservative, states that most jobs do not require a knowledge of algebra, but rather an excellent grasp of arithmatic. I think he overplays the concept, but his findings conflict with most articles about math you read in the press. The three "quiz" examples they provide here almost seen more like common sense, or what you just happen to "come across," rather than something you learn in school. Brings me back to my see-saw days on the playground.
1
I am a part of the inaugural cohort of apprentices for Aon, and it has simply been amazing so far! In my few weeks of working for Aon, I have learned more in the office than I have in the school setting. Although it seems like a foreign language, I feel more and more eager to learn more because I know that what I am learning WILL be applied to my specified position. As a first generation college student, I have always questioned whether or not the subjects and topics I learned in school would be used in my future job. Thanks to this apprenticeship, I no longer worry as much. I seriously cannot fathom why other corporations, within the business industries, aren't doing apprenticeships.
18
Please tell me why, as a capitalist, I would pay someone with a 12th grade education $50k/year (and have to train them) vs an engineer with much higher skills set and ready to work for $25k. This is why "Making America Great Again" by bringing back manufacturing is just a pipe dream.
4
Where in NY do you find the latter?
13
I am an engineering faculty member cannot begin to remember when one of our graduates would even consider a position with a starting salary of $25k. If I had to make a guess, it would be around thirty years ago. Good luck with that.
12
The 25K engineering graduates you mention work overseas in Asia. They are not US graduates. That is not a US based engineering salary.
6
Vocational training is absolutely essential. It used to be very unpopular for companies here, because they thought that that the trainees cost only money. That was very short-sighted, and after some time they had severe problems finding qualified personnel. Now there has been a complete shift of paradigm. Companies compete for qualified trainees.
Furthermore it is alo essential to offer several ways of achieving a certificate. Some take some time to notice that they have higher goals in life. So there must be opportunities. Otherwise it would be just a dead-end.
Furthermore it is alo essential to offer several ways of achieving a certificate. Some take some time to notice that they have higher goals in life. So there must be opportunities. Otherwise it would be just a dead-end.
3
This is not going to help Potus' formerly highly paid high school-educated rural supporters. Those people want to restore their past glories that now make no economic sense. The world is now a very crowded and getting more so; a much more competitive place than 1950-80. We can't "do something" for burgeoning lower classes, and that includes coal miners and mining, a filthy, planet-killing extractive job/industry of the past. The betting favors ever-greater efficiency, automation, environment-friendly and yes, longer work hours for those blessed with what it takes. The lower socioeconomic classes will have to be satisfied with what wealth transfers they can get by way of politics. The party is over.
7
Take a look at European countries like Germany, the Netherlands, Finland, and the Scandinavian countries. They have plenty of non college educated people. But virtually no poverty. And only a small percent are living on the dole. Obviously they are doing something right that we are not.
If we could turn out vocational-track kids who were even half as competent as those who come out of the Swiss system, we would once again become the envy of the world. I've worked with Swiss technicians, and they are indeed ultra-impressive. If only we had the will, and the discipline, and the sense of purpose, but we don't.
19
An immigrant grandmother raised me in a small CT town. She didn't speak English and food was scarce. No TV. No radio. Few friends. My mother had introduced me to reading and I saw hope in education. I read voraciously and chose the most challenging subjects. Then a Jr Hi teacher summarized ancient history: the Greek civilization grew, followed by its golden age, then fell; and then Romans did the same. I asked: "What's so golden about a golden age if it immediately precedes the decline of the civilization it represents?" Awkward silence. [Thomas Cole's "Course of Empire" paintings raised that question a century earlier.]
I saw the value of well prepared instruction by working through Euclid's geometry and was excused from classes. Despite HS graduation, my name was omitted from records (it improved statistical standing) for 35 years. After a few semesters at an excellent but isolated college, I completed Naval electronics & nuclear power schools, and later spent 35 years trying to do what Euclid did by writing high tech training that anyone could learn from.
My first task was to reduce a 5-week string of computer classes to 1 week.
I reduced it to 2 days. A $1M decision rested on the result.
The path to problem solving is simple: Do it. Do it better. Do it right.
For leadership: lead, follow, or get out of the way.
Painfully, I learned empowering people disturbs existing social relationships among "organizational interpreters" who lie between the problem and solution.
I saw the value of well prepared instruction by working through Euclid's geometry and was excused from classes. Despite HS graduation, my name was omitted from records (it improved statistical standing) for 35 years. After a few semesters at an excellent but isolated college, I completed Naval electronics & nuclear power schools, and later spent 35 years trying to do what Euclid did by writing high tech training that anyone could learn from.
My first task was to reduce a 5-week string of computer classes to 1 week.
I reduced it to 2 days. A $1M decision rested on the result.
The path to problem solving is simple: Do it. Do it better. Do it right.
For leadership: lead, follow, or get out of the way.
Painfully, I learned empowering people disturbs existing social relationships among "organizational interpreters" who lie between the problem and solution.
14
I learned empowering people disturbs existing social relationships among "organizational interpreters" who lie between the problem and solution.
Boy, truer words were never spoken. Any problem is someone else's goldmine, and they'll defend it to the death.
Boy, truer words were never spoken. Any problem is someone else's goldmine, and they'll defend it to the death.
9
If automation and computers were supposed to make things faster and cheaper with minimal operator intervention, why is it so complicated now?
Whatever happened to on-the-job-training like I had in my youth just like a father teaching his son's how to perform a craft?
Why don't the manufacturers of the sophisticated manufacturing machines train the operators of the company that bought the machines? After all, those who made the machines made the money for them and should train the new owners operators. It should be a salesman's obligation.
It's kind of like Detroit teaching people how to drive so they buy their cars.
Whatever happened to on-the-job-training like I had in my youth just like a father teaching his son's how to perform a craft?
Why don't the manufacturers of the sophisticated manufacturing machines train the operators of the company that bought the machines? After all, those who made the machines made the money for them and should train the new owners operators. It should be a salesman's obligation.
It's kind of like Detroit teaching people how to drive so they buy their cars.
1
It seems that the average worker "at the place that bought the machine" can't read well enough to use the training manuals and can't do advanced mathematical calculations. Heck the average modern day High School graduate can't do any basic math either in their heads or on paper. Watch someone make change in any store today. The salesmen can't take 2 years to train the staff. It's humbling to admit it but some adults in their 50's are functionally illiterate.
2
Well, blame it on computers. In the old days, a cashier at the supermarket pretty much knew all the prices and had to pay attention to what he/she was ringing up. Now, they just run everything past the scanner. The new convenience store down the road from me now bypasses the cashier completely. There are scanners set up for the customers to use. Computers are making us dumb. They're also making us antisocial, but that's a different beef.
1
Its obvious that there are completely different standards around the country about what is a high school education. I would suggest that any blue state would do better than North Carolina in terms of high school graduation and being able to qualify for a job based on a ninth grade education norm. Trump and his group would like to drag us all into the hole that a lot of states have created with underfunding, creationism, etc. After all, aren't we all supposed to be using Texas schoolbooks. Give me a break. Education has been turned into a political issue by the Republicans. In Europe, they understand that an educated, employed citizenry is necessary. We apparently just want to continue fighting about it and making snide comments. At some point during the election I read an article about a paper one of the Republican "think tanks" had put out in the late 70s or early 0s. The premise was that the voters were too well educated and they needed to be dumbed down. Well, congratulations, guys, you found your base.
11
> Education has been turned into a political issue by the Republicans.
So Leftist indoctrination not politics?
So Leftist indoctrination not politics?
Creationism and higher education are not mutually exclusive. On the Contrary, the Bible teaches us to search for knowledge and wisdom. The liberal assumption that all Christians are antiscience and illiterate is simply foolish. As a matter of fact, a lot of schools and Universities around the world were started by Christians. e.g. Yale, Princeton and others.There are millions of well-educated and skilled Christians across the world. North Carolina is not a benchmark for Christianity.
2
Here in a red state, in the glorious suburbs of the main city, still red, not blue like the city, education is fantastic, especially for children of tiger parents who take special Sunday math classes taught by a tiger professor at the city university, so they can get all the A's when they 'relearn' the same information for a grade. The non-tiger kids? Well, they have Friday night football, and some of them are smart enough to go to the local business school and make connections. The tiger kids go on to Ivies and MIT and Stanford.
2
Exactly. A high school education is not enough. Some sort of post high school education is needed whether it is technical school, trade school, employer provided training, community college or regular college if you want to get most jobs with a middle class income.
2
> A high school education is not enough
William Buckley, Jr. advocated giving every new baby a Ph.D. A Pragmatist education is never enough. A high school education that teaches thinking in principles is enough.
William Buckley, Jr. advocated giving every new baby a Ph.D. A Pragmatist education is never enough. A high school education that teaches thinking in principles is enough.
3
Important article, calling Trump's bluffing when promising the return of manufacturing jobs...without an effort by 'workers' in educating themselves, and re-training, so they can enjoy the benefits of a globalized economy, fair trade and mutually agreed upon ways to share the wealth. Trump is a demagogue and a professional liar who, definitely, abhors the truth, and the facts that makes it real. Can't the job-seekers supporting Trump see they are being cheated, that he is pulling their leg?
7
Underachievers need not apply.
9
I bet the 85% that couldn't pass a 9th grade level reading/writing/math test could quote football stats with ease, though. Academic success enjoys pretty low social status in our culture. Priorities, priorities . . . (and I post this as a football fan!)
25
Some, but not all, cultures value sports and hip hop music for more than they value education and then wonder why they can not find good jobs.
4
I worked for Social Security 3 decades ago- I took many disability applications from people in manufacturing jobs- US Steel, Fisher Autobody, Rohm and Haas, 3M, Nabisco etc. I was always amazed at how much these assembly line jobs paid and how little in the way of knowledge or skill was needed to do them. The main job requirements were being able to stand all day and able to lift your arm. All these jobs were eliminated by automation and outsourcing. Why pay a person just to tighten 2 screws on a car door handle all day when a robot could do it faster and more accurately? Why pay a man $60,000 a year when someone in China will do the job for $600 a year. For the most part the men I interviewed to didn't like their jobs, they didn't feel- or expect to feel- respected or valued by their employers, they didn't feel their job gave them "dignity"- they did it for the money and the benefits and counted down the days to retirement. I don't understand why these jobs are now spoken of as being sources of Never-ending Goodness and an essential part of a person's identity. They weren't. They won't be. And they shouldn't be. But the urgent question is "What do we do for these people now?" Feeding them false promises of a speedy return to the 50's will not put money in their pockets, food on their tables or a roof over their heads. But the jobs today that only need people who can stand all day and lift their arms won't do any of those things either.
69
If you grew up in a community where steel, cars, industrial cranes, plastic products and ships were made, as I did, you'd have a better understanding. I'm for paying people lots of money when a. the companies can more than afford it b. the national economy depended on those products being made c. those jobs created other jobs d. they are physically very tough on people.
Cities that are now the Rust Belt are incredibly intertwined--if for some reason, the steel mill closes for a week or two, so do lots and lots of other smaller businesses that seem only tangentially related but in fact feed those industries with tools and supplies.
And the workers I knew had a great deal of pride--they were producing the ships, steel and industrial tools needed to make this country great. They were building the country. So while you can look down your nose on them for their physical labor and lack of other skills, which weren't needed at the time, I'm very glad you didn't have to depend on these guys to feed, clothe and house you. Or produce the goods to provide you a car, a house or a school.
I agree with you on one point only--those very physical jobs are mostly gone; under NAFTA, workers were supposed to be trained for higher-skilled jobs, but apparently that didn't happen.
Cities that are now the Rust Belt are incredibly intertwined--if for some reason, the steel mill closes for a week or two, so do lots and lots of other smaller businesses that seem only tangentially related but in fact feed those industries with tools and supplies.
And the workers I knew had a great deal of pride--they were producing the ships, steel and industrial tools needed to make this country great. They were building the country. So while you can look down your nose on them for their physical labor and lack of other skills, which weren't needed at the time, I'm very glad you didn't have to depend on these guys to feed, clothe and house you. Or produce the goods to provide you a car, a house or a school.
I agree with you on one point only--those very physical jobs are mostly gone; under NAFTA, workers were supposed to be trained for higher-skilled jobs, but apparently that didn't happen.
12
The minimum wage in China ranges from $146 to $321 a month, and most manufacturing workers make more. The Chinese autoworker is more likely to make $6000 a year, and has a much lower cost of living than he would have in the US.
2
Connie is not looking down on industrial laborers; she's surprised to encounter so many without pride in their work, and she's clearly sympathetic to their need to have a job with a living wage that they can actually perform.
4
As a retired executive from a state university I can factually tell you that higher education is a big business. The notion that American universities subscribe to some higher ideal of public serving is ludicrous. Universities have an enormous appetite for money and in that regard do all they can stimulate enrollment. College enrollment has exploded yet graduation has not. In 1960 about 15% of high school students went on the graduate college. Today the graduation rate is about 25%. However, the explosion of college enrollment means that hundreds of thousands fail to graduate, but they are left with crippling student loans. Those poor students are simply pass-through fodder so the universities can drain their financial resources. Those students would have been much better served had their respective secondary schools honed reading, writing and mathematical skills instead of being social workshops.
30
Thanks for the management point of view. I suspected as much. The professors lecturers and adjuncts feel differently. No one goes through a PhD and teaches without love of doing so. For the most part it does not pay commensurate with the education attained.
5
The societal issue in play isn't about education, it's about what to do with more and more people who lose their jobs in their 40's and 50's, and will never find work that pays similar wages. Those who train for specific niche industries will likely find themselves at risk in 10-20 years.
Trade school and community college are part of the answer, but the real issue is our competitive educational system that's built vaporware without a foundation. Everyone wants to be valedictorian, with fewer and fewer people appreciating the mathematical impossibilities of that statement. Good schools with well paid, respected, non-tenured teachers who produce better results from K-12 is the only way out of this. We as a country need to get smarter, not just increase our test scores.
Trade school and community college are part of the answer, but the real issue is our competitive educational system that's built vaporware without a foundation. Everyone wants to be valedictorian, with fewer and fewer people appreciating the mathematical impossibilities of that statement. Good schools with well paid, respected, non-tenured teachers who produce better results from K-12 is the only way out of this. We as a country need to get smarter, not just increase our test scores.
8
You miss a key point. We have to get into our heads that education is a never ending process that we need to be engaged in from cradle to grave. The only way to keep those people in their 40's - 60's is to keep them educated in the latest technologies relevant to their jobs. If we keep people in the mode of continually learning, then it won't be so hard for them to get additional education if their jobs are obsoleted by technology.
7
How many factory workers from the era of only needing High School thought they were entitled to own boats, cottages nice cars etc but would never spend money on continuing education. They invested in the wrong things. Telling North Americans and I include Canada that they don't have to worry about all the smart people around the world cannot protect them from competition. Having said all that, I don't believe CEO's are worth 30 times their workers salaries.
4
The most important part of your comment was "well paid" teachers. As teacher salaries have gone down, so has the quality of K12 education. Because the quality of the teachers IS going down across the country, especially after grade 6.
I don't expect every high school graduate to be adept at geometry or trigonometry, but they should all be adept at Algebra 1. It amazes me how many are not. Arithmetic is NOT enough. Everyone uses calculators for arithmetic after school anyways. It is the thinking skills learned in Algebra 1 that are required and which are in short supply. As for homeschooling, how are unqualified parents, who do not understand algebra and geometry themselves, supposed to teach it adequately to their children?
We need certified qualified teachers who are "well paid."
I don't expect every high school graduate to be adept at geometry or trigonometry, but they should all be adept at Algebra 1. It amazes me how many are not. Arithmetic is NOT enough. Everyone uses calculators for arithmetic after school anyways. It is the thinking skills learned in Algebra 1 that are required and which are in short supply. As for homeschooling, how are unqualified parents, who do not understand algebra and geometry themselves, supposed to teach it adequately to their children?
We need certified qualified teachers who are "well paid."
1
Where is the accountability for the educational system in N.C. - they want to turn back the clock on jobs but the sad truth is that investment in basic education of these people is what will drive the state forward.
10
There are two main issues here, as I see it. If "fewer than 15 percent of the applicants were able to pass a reading, writing and math screening test geared toward a ninth-grade education" (what year was this? The article did not say) then we have another confirmation that public education in the US is not educating our children. We need to fix this, and I do not at all agree that abandoning public education in favor of private, for profit education is desirable at all, for a host of reasons that I won't enumerate here. Secondly, there is insufficient affordable access to technical training throughout the life of a worker. Offering more vocational training in high school would be helpful; making post-secondary training accessible & affordable to new high school graduates as well as to workers already in the field, so that they can keep skills current, is essential.
7
According to the trump and his minions, being educated makes you part of the "elite" and, therefore, part of the problem.
11
This is so true.
I started out at a 4-year state-owned university, clueless as a billiard ball, drifted into nursing, thanks to a stint as an Army-trained LVN, and moved on to become an associate degreed RN a dozen or so years after discharge. From the mid-80's on, my first and now my second wives were also RN's (basically hospital-based, 3-year OJT without the benefit of a paycheck in the first case, community college ADN, like myself, in the second), and we enjoyed the life-style afforded by our combined $50+K to (at times) > $140K/year incomes.
I didn't become the architect or mechanical engineer I had anticipated being as an entering freshman, but I am today enjoying a comfortable, debt-free retirement.
Nursing is certainly not a career for everyone, nor is it the highest-paying job that a 2-year degree will allow you into. If you want to read the classics, do as I did. Get a good job, then visit the library or just buy the books. It's way less expensive and more pleasurable than paying good money (be it dad's or yours) for the "privilege" of being required to read them, and on top of that, have to sit through lectures and exams. Remember, those books weren't written to be taught, but to entertain (and just coincidentally perhaps teach) you (something about life).
It's not rocket science.
I started out at a 4-year state-owned university, clueless as a billiard ball, drifted into nursing, thanks to a stint as an Army-trained LVN, and moved on to become an associate degreed RN a dozen or so years after discharge. From the mid-80's on, my first and now my second wives were also RN's (basically hospital-based, 3-year OJT without the benefit of a paycheck in the first case, community college ADN, like myself, in the second), and we enjoyed the life-style afforded by our combined $50+K to (at times) > $140K/year incomes.
I didn't become the architect or mechanical engineer I had anticipated being as an entering freshman, but I am today enjoying a comfortable, debt-free retirement.
Nursing is certainly not a career for everyone, nor is it the highest-paying job that a 2-year degree will allow you into. If you want to read the classics, do as I did. Get a good job, then visit the library or just buy the books. It's way less expensive and more pleasurable than paying good money (be it dad's or yours) for the "privilege" of being required to read them, and on top of that, have to sit through lectures and exams. Remember, those books weren't written to be taught, but to entertain (and just coincidentally perhaps teach) you (something about life).
It's not rocket science.
10
My hospital which is a nationally known academic center as well as the other one 8 miles down the street no longer hires nurses that do not have their BSN degrees.
6
Trump did not offer during his campaign and is not offering (so far) to offset the cost of education or pay for college, as Clinton did. He has not said how he plans to give back jobs and create new ones. Assembling great "teams" of fantastically wealthy business people does not a plan or jobs make.
I wouldn't be so eager to use Switzerland as a model. What is great about 70 percent of your population having only a 9th grade education? That doesn't sound like a statistic to brag about to me. Think of all the learning that is done in high school and college, to make a whole person, not just a narrowly skilled one. And I don't get why vastly wealthy corporations like Apple, which is situated In Cupertino, CA literally down the street from one of the state's largest community colleges, do not offer not only technical ed programs, but money to support education as a whole. We could all benefit from having a more educated society, as our recent election shows.
I wouldn't be so eager to use Switzerland as a model. What is great about 70 percent of your population having only a 9th grade education? That doesn't sound like a statistic to brag about to me. Think of all the learning that is done in high school and college, to make a whole person, not just a narrowly skilled one. And I don't get why vastly wealthy corporations like Apple, which is situated In Cupertino, CA literally down the street from one of the state's largest community colleges, do not offer not only technical ed programs, but money to support education as a whole. We could all benefit from having a more educated society, as our recent election shows.
5
I believe their 9th grade likely tests out above our 12th.
8
Don't be so quick to under estimate Switzerland's 9th grade education. What their children achieve in 9 years takes America children 12 years! We could also achieve same results if Americans were willing to pay & truly invest in equal and quality public education, which includes valuing our educators.
6
70% choose a vocational track, which includes ongoing schooling, that is, this part of the population does not "only have a 9th grade education." Furthermore, a significant percentage of the students following the vocational track continue on to college or even get back onto the academic track via a "bridge year." The system is flexible and offers many options and paths, at various stages. An engineer can, for example, have come up through the more practical vocational track, with a BSc or MSc from a college (applied university) or through the more theoretical academic track with a MSc from a university. Engineers from both tracks work together and compliment each other in the work force.
I live in Switzerland, but grew up in Canada where (presumably much like in the US) the term "vocational" had a rather negative connotation. This is not the case in Switzerland.
I live in Switzerland, but grew up in Canada where (presumably much like in the US) the term "vocational" had a rather negative connotation. This is not the case in Switzerland.
5
Increasing the opportunity for apprenticeships sounds great, but I am not sure that the current corporate culture cares enough about retention of workers to do this on a large scale. I'm retired after working 35 years for the same employer (my only significant employer after college) but I doubt that many young people will stay with one company, not because they don't want to, but because the expectations of everyone are that people change jobs, especially ones that don't offer much in the way of benefits or retirement.
4
Want better schools. Follow Massachusetts's example. Best student scores in the country. As a separate country it would rate 9th in the International PISA ratings. Siemens come to Massachusetts you will find plenty of students who can pass that 9th grade level test.
The State has charter schools. but unlike other states the charters are highly regulated.
The real problem in the US as a nations we don't really treasure education. We have politicians who brand the educated as elites and almost Un-American Even more troublesome we have millions of Americans who cheer them on.
The State has charter schools. but unlike other states the charters are highly regulated.
The real problem in the US as a nations we don't really treasure education. We have politicians who brand the educated as elites and almost Un-American Even more troublesome we have millions of Americans who cheer them on.
62
Guanna, (or is it Goanna?)
Agreed. How much can a Koala Bear?
Agreed. How much can a Koala Bear?
> The real problem in the US as a nations we don't really treasure education
American still value education, not govt-enforced, Leftist political indoctrination.
During the Revolutionary era, Americans, with vastly less government education, were regarded as the best educated people. This was in the rational Enlightenment, not reason-hating modern culture.
American still value education, not govt-enforced, Leftist political indoctrination.
During the Revolutionary era, Americans, with vastly less government education, were regarded as the best educated people. This was in the rational Enlightenment, not reason-hating modern culture.
1
Our educated pols call the educated "elite". Some irony there, i think. It makes it easier to defund education, one of the core values and needs for a functioning democrasy
Of course, we eliminated vocational training, the old "shop" classes in many, many schools.
5
These employer apprenticeship programs will be no substitute for union apprenticeships which also taught citizenship and not just job skills.
15
10,000 applicants only 15% were able to pass a ninth grade tests. That translates to 1,500 people. That also means that graduates after twelve years of education are at least four years behind in their skills. This is where the problem lies. We need to stress the "Three R's".
5
The US is discovering the German system, that however operates far more efficiently.
www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/10/why-germany-is-so-much-bett...
Mr. Selingo makes no mention of a much better system.
In his discovery of the less efficient US rediscovery, he needs to point out that your College Degree has to be in engineering or computer science.
A BA in art history is of no use in operating a computer every 30 feet that needs to be programmed for the next manufacturing step.
www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/10/why-germany-is-so-much-bett...
Mr. Selingo makes no mention of a much better system.
In his discovery of the less efficient US rediscovery, he needs to point out that your College Degree has to be in engineering or computer science.
A BA in art history is of no use in operating a computer every 30 feet that needs to be programmed for the next manufacturing step.
2
This article hit the nail on the head. Much of the problem is that a large portion of workers in the US do not value education. They value street smarts, sports, and often booze and drugs. They are not interested in the free public education they are required to attend until 16 or 18 is not of interest to them and they fill chairs, if forced to, but do not learn.
Any teacher can tell you the misery of trying to teach people who don't want to learn. There is only so much a teacher can do to motivate such students. Hillbilly Elegy by JD Vance describes that culture to a T.
And there is a crisis in that culture now because education has suddently become more important. I agree that vocational training is good for getting jobs, but students need the liberal arts to learn to communicate and to learn to write and to understand the world around them.
One reason immigrants come to our country is to give their children the education so many American children detest. They see education as a path to success. Their children often excel and get those good jobs. Their American counterparts resent being left out of the skilled economy and from this we get a great deal of the conflict with immigrants in our country.
A portion of our country is finding itself useless and they are angry about it. Education is the cure, but they hate it. Cultural change is not easily accomplished. We have a big task ahead of us.
Any teacher can tell you the misery of trying to teach people who don't want to learn. There is only so much a teacher can do to motivate such students. Hillbilly Elegy by JD Vance describes that culture to a T.
And there is a crisis in that culture now because education has suddently become more important. I agree that vocational training is good for getting jobs, but students need the liberal arts to learn to communicate and to learn to write and to understand the world around them.
One reason immigrants come to our country is to give their children the education so many American children detest. They see education as a path to success. Their children often excel and get those good jobs. Their American counterparts resent being left out of the skilled economy and from this we get a great deal of the conflict with immigrants in our country.
A portion of our country is finding itself useless and they are angry about it. Education is the cure, but they hate it. Cultural change is not easily accomplished. We have a big task ahead of us.
50
In the 1950s I would have been relegated to a secretary position regardless of my aptitude. White males mostly were pushed to the trades and manufacturing industry unless they were extremely smart or upper class. Now we send many more people to college regardless of background. And they are the ones who are less likely unemployed. The people who can not succeed in the manufacturing environment are the same who could not succeed in the 1950s, companies are just stuck with them now since people have more opportunity and there best opportunity is not factory work.
After accepting the tax breaks N Carolina offered Siemens did no further research? Are they really surprised that a red state in which the voters vote against their own interests and applaud ignorance can't pass a ninth grade education test?
19
Great article! But as any good industrial recruiter will tell you it's tribal vs travel. They also need to be mobile. Welcome to reality for us all. The company that comes to town and is building business may need its trained and educated worker to move to another state. 1) If you are too Trump tribal to get up and go after you settle in one place you can kiss that job good bye. 2) The company often sells and moves without you. If you do get invited and will move with the company, relocating to the south usually means lower wages and poor working and safety standards. Plus your spouse has to find a another job. 3) Staying on with the new company? Ha ha, wages are almost uniformly less when the new owner starts up and some shutter the company for years in order to break the union that got you good wages. Machinists, industrial electricians, and industrial machine maintenance workers all over Washington and Oregon can tell you about this blood bath. 4) Now we will see what the Republicans have in store for the wages of aerospace and defense workers who are in a union in the Trump era. Some of those Everett machinists who thought it was a good idea to vote for the Trumpster may be in for a shock. Yes, you need training and education and it will be ongoing but they are coming for your wages. When right-to-work hits all states the company greed will outweigh that good apprenticeship and you'll be negotiating for McDonalds wages.
18
I'd like to be optimistic about this but my experience with IT jobs doesn't allow me. There was a time when being an application programmer, or a database admin, or a website coder, or a server technician - all jobs that require advanced learning - paid really well. Then the IT companies got smart (or greedy) and started importing south Asians with these skills in huge numbers and because they accepted less, salaries stagnated. Today my IT department, covering half a floor in a Manhattan office building, probably looks indistinguishable from one in Mumbai.
Even if a job requires more than a high school education it's not safe in a global economy. You have to be willing and ready to adapt quickly.
Even if a job requires more than a high school education it's not safe in a global economy. You have to be willing and ready to adapt quickly.
27
First you'll need to convince rural people that more education is not liberal and snotty, it can actually get them a manufacturing job. That might be a tough sell.
23
U.S. CEOs earn from 400 to 500 times the median salary for workers. For CEOs in the U.K., the ratio is 22; in France, it's 15; and in Germany it's 12...according to: http://work.chron.com/ceo-compensation-vs-world-15509.html
Maybe money that used to be spent on training workers and educating our children better is now going to the top, who then perhaps send a percentage to politician's campaigns and lobbyists?
Maybe money that used to be spent on training workers and educating our children better is now going to the top, who then perhaps send a percentage to politician's campaigns and lobbyists?
23
There is a pyramid scheme here. Training more and more people in the skills required to automate more jobs out of existence is insanity if there is no answer to the obvious question. How will the masses of people displaced by automation be expected to live their lives with any dignity?
The better we get at it, the higher up the educational ladder will be those that are displaced.
When the goal is to eliminate human work then the faster we collectively become skilled to achieve that goal the greater we exacerbate the original unemployment problem. As the automatons become increasingly skilled they will displace ever more skilled humans.
It is time that we think this all the way through.
12
I was a very smart student in a very dull rural high school. To keep life interesting I took mostly courses in the Ag-track. Tractor maintenance. Welding. Cattle husbandry. Farm accounting. Why? I had no intention of becoming a farmer, but I learned actual stuff in these voc-ed classes.
In New York State you can take the state Regents Exams in any subject (whether or nor you take the course). I took the history, English, math etc exams based on self study. The actual classes were trivial and deadly dull. I could earn As in my sleep.
While in the Ag classes I had to work hard to keep up with or ahead of the farmer's sons who were my compatriots.
I went on to degrees at two ivies, but never forgot how interesting my oxy/acetylene welding class had been!
The state of basic public ed in America is so abysmal that almost any alternative is better. Learning how to check a cow's udders for signs of mastitis is infinitely more interesting than listening to a semi-literate English teacher trying to explicate Catcher in the Rye
In New York State you can take the state Regents Exams in any subject (whether or nor you take the course). I took the history, English, math etc exams based on self study. The actual classes were trivial and deadly dull. I could earn As in my sleep.
While in the Ag classes I had to work hard to keep up with or ahead of the farmer's sons who were my compatriots.
I went on to degrees at two ivies, but never forgot how interesting my oxy/acetylene welding class had been!
The state of basic public ed in America is so abysmal that almost any alternative is better. Learning how to check a cow's udders for signs of mastitis is infinitely more interesting than listening to a semi-literate English teacher trying to explicate Catcher in the Rye
52
My father drove for a living, occasionally did a bit of farming on a small scale and read voraciously. There is no reason why a person can't appreciate good literature and still work with their hands.
9
This is an awesome story.
1
Educating and training for skilled manufacturing jobs runs counter to the goals of the Republican party. While both parties share the blame for the current dismal state of US education, the Republicans have made it a priority over the last 30 years to eviscerate education so as to help "dumb down" the electorate. That way they can be more easily manipulated; this election demonstrates that the strategy has more or less worked.
Skilled, educated workers also have good critical thinking skills, and would be much less likely to buy the nonsense Trump and the Republicans are selling.
Skilled, educated workers also have good critical thinking skills, and would be much less likely to buy the nonsense Trump and the Republicans are selling.
26
Why does the caption to question 1 say "None of these", while the answer slide says it is "Lever C"? I agree with the "final" answer of Lever C.
2
The problem isn't that the required job skills are beyond a standard high school education, the problem is that schools today don't teach kids to read or do basic math. They used to.
14
Some how this lack of skills issue was completely ignored on the campaign trail. A high school education has been insufficient for a long time now. The solution is education, but therein lies the problem, the GOP wants to defund and privatize education. This ultimately is detrimental to our country and future generations who need to compete in a global world.
11
The fundamental problem is that so many of the public schools--which are being threatened by profit motive charter schools--serving Black, Brown, and poor children, the very people that would benefit found the type of apprenticeship programs discussed here, are so dismally underfunded and under-resourced, that they barely prepare students for the distanced 19th & 20th century.
America, unlike Switzerland, Germany, and Europe writ large, is not committed to quality public education for all…just look at what it pays its teachers.
America, unlike Switzerland, Germany, and Europe writ large, is not committed to quality public education for all…just look at what it pays its teachers.
8
Underfunded? Newark, $22K per student, Camden, $25K per student, Washington DC, $29k per student. Do these places have any whites in high school? No.
5
Here in NJ, special state funding allows inner-city schools to spend as much per pupil as the most affluent suburbs. Despite this the inner-city schools still have the lowest test scores and graduation rates in the state. As the old saying goes, "you can lead a horse to water (education) but you can not make it drink (learn) unless it wants to.
1
Jonathan, Washington DC does have some white students in public high schools (mostly at Woodrow Wilson, from which I myself graduated). These students tend to perform very, very well in school; and tend to attend elite universities, if their families can afford it.
The folks who believed the con man when he assured them he was bringing back the "old days" of low skill, high pay manufacturing jobs ....
well, not going to happen because that does not exist anymore. Anywhere.
Low skill work pays low skill wages. High tech manufacturing pays better, but requires skills.
But then again, none of those living in depressed rural communities who bought into his lies are reading the NYTimes anyway.
well, not going to happen because that does not exist anymore. Anywhere.
Low skill work pays low skill wages. High tech manufacturing pays better, but requires skills.
But then again, none of those living in depressed rural communities who bought into his lies are reading the NYTimes anyway.
26
"...nearly nine in 10 jobs that disappeared since 2000 were lost to automation in the decades-long march to an information-driven economy, not to workers in other countries..."
And yet we continue to import another million low skilled workers every year, as we have done for more than 40 years...because?
News: The law of supply and demand applies to labor as it does to goods.
And yet we continue to import another million low skilled workers every year, as we have done for more than 40 years...because?
News: The law of supply and demand applies to labor as it does to goods.
10
Education is the key, but the goals have to be clearly defined, for both student and teacher. And the current culture of money grabbing is not helping the cause.
Young people flock to the cities to become the next iPhone app wunderkind. Just look at the current flock of hipsters, all dabbling in the Silicon Valley investments.
How about building better dishwashers and constructing better and more affordable housing for everyone? But that's just boring and won't get your name in the paper.
Young people flock to the cities to become the next iPhone app wunderkind. Just look at the current flock of hipsters, all dabbling in the Silicon Valley investments.
How about building better dishwashers and constructing better and more affordable housing for everyone? But that's just boring and won't get your name in the paper.
2
The article is excellent on skilled workforce topics.
My only issue was with the quoted Ball State data re 9 of 10 jobs lost to automation. Depending on what time period is chosen, the correct answer is more like a 50:50 split between automation and offshoring.
My only issue was with the quoted Ball State data re 9 of 10 jobs lost to automation. Depending on what time period is chosen, the correct answer is more like a 50:50 split between automation and offshoring.
8
I don't know the actual ratio but I'm certain 9of10 is too high.
What they should've also addressed (obvious to me) there are still some jobs that left for cheaper wages that are still being done.
It's just financially impossible and irresponsible (for that matter) to expect them to come back AND pay living US Wages.
What they should've also addressed (obvious to me) there are still some jobs that left for cheaper wages that are still being done.
It's just financially impossible and irresponsible (for that matter) to expect them to come back AND pay living US Wages.
2
MarkAntney
But that's exactly the point of this ridiculous liberal/progressive foolishness that says, by way of trade agreements, when you raise the standard of living of workers elsewhere, when you insist on meaningful environmental protections in, say Africa, when you push for a rule-of-law court and banking system in Eastern Europe, you make things better for factory workers at home.
You have two choices:
The corporate/Republican way: try to pay everybody at the same rate as Chinese prison labor, eliminate onerous health and environmental concerns, allow endless rip offs of design and technology, and do not hold companies responsible for their products.
The arrogant Obama/Clinton way: use United States economic power to push for fair treatment of workers, to advocate for laws-based systems around the world, to decrease all kinds of discrimination, increase environmental awareness and care, and provide meaningful security and advancement in the workplace.
Obviously our coal miner friends and Trump zombies, because they hate everything that looks like giving stuff to somebody who isn't them, strongly favor option one. So, here we are.
But that's exactly the point of this ridiculous liberal/progressive foolishness that says, by way of trade agreements, when you raise the standard of living of workers elsewhere, when you insist on meaningful environmental protections in, say Africa, when you push for a rule-of-law court and banking system in Eastern Europe, you make things better for factory workers at home.
You have two choices:
The corporate/Republican way: try to pay everybody at the same rate as Chinese prison labor, eliminate onerous health and environmental concerns, allow endless rip offs of design and technology, and do not hold companies responsible for their products.
The arrogant Obama/Clinton way: use United States economic power to push for fair treatment of workers, to advocate for laws-based systems around the world, to decrease all kinds of discrimination, increase environmental awareness and care, and provide meaningful security and advancement in the workplace.
Obviously our coal miner friends and Trump zombies, because they hate everything that looks like giving stuff to somebody who isn't them, strongly favor option one. So, here we are.
5
I won't call it "Arrogant" as much as I say it's "Ambitious":)
But you did remind me WHY I and many others I knew wanted to see what a Ross Perot Presidency would've gotten us.
He was allover this very issue. from a more practical sense than either of the other 2 Parties.
But you did remind me WHY I and many others I knew wanted to see what a Ross Perot Presidency would've gotten us.
He was allover this very issue. from a more practical sense than either of the other 2 Parties.
" a high school diploma is simply no longer good enough "
That would basically be because a high school education isn't much good. We could teach math and comprehension if we supported the schools properly ... you don't need to be 20 years old to understand that stuff.
That would basically be because a high school education isn't much good. We could teach math and comprehension if we supported the schools properly ... you don't need to be 20 years old to understand that stuff.
16
A college degree today is a 1962 high school diploma
24
Well, maybe. Not so for the 3% of 'college graduates' who are functionally illiterate, however.
3
Several raiders seem to blame DeVos for,the failures of the US education system. Are they unaware that she has not been the Education Secy these past 8years? That position has been filled by Obama appointees, so blame belongs to Obama.
The NYT suggests that a college education is required to do these jobs. No, a 9th grade education is all that is needed by Siemans. The question is why so few HS graduates seem to actually have these skills. Social promotion, anyone? In Europe, which is widely praised, they test sudents, and if they fail the exams, they do not progress. What say we do that here? Of course, almost nobody in big city systems will be promoted. Thank you AFT.
Two year colleges, or junior colleges as they were known when I was of age, focused n providing exactly the type of skills Siemans and others are looking for. Today, they just provide two years, at lower cost, of classes for future art majors.
The NYT suggests that a college education is required to do these jobs. No, a 9th grade education is all that is needed by Siemans. The question is why so few HS graduates seem to actually have these skills. Social promotion, anyone? In Europe, which is widely praised, they test sudents, and if they fail the exams, they do not progress. What say we do that here? Of course, almost nobody in big city systems will be promoted. Thank you AFT.
Two year colleges, or junior colleges as they were known when I was of age, focused n providing exactly the type of skills Siemans and others are looking for. Today, they just provide two years, at lower cost, of classes for future art majors.
3
In Phoenix we have a bureaucracy called Neighborhood Services, they watch to make sure your lawn is mowed etc. I was contacted by them about a rental house we own. In the dressing down I received, I asked the obviously young lady, if she had a degree and she proudly said yes, to which I replied what a waste of a perfectly good degree. Needless to say, after meeting with her boss, we received a ticket for the yard, what a waste of taxpayer's money.
1
Sound like just another useless, parasitic, overpaid bureaucrat sponging off the public payroll.
"Is our children learning?" President George W. Bush famously asked. The more important question he should have asked: "Is our employers, high school and college administrators, and state and federal legislators learning?" Sadly, the answer to all appears to have been "no."
As a nation we might have looked to Finland, Germany, Singapore, or Canada for guidance on how to upgrade or educational system. But, no, we chose the "exceptional American" route. We opened a string of for profit colleges. A lot of people got rich. Unfortunately, none of them were students.
As a nation we might have looked to Finland, Germany, Singapore, or Canada for guidance on how to upgrade or educational system. But, no, we chose the "exceptional American" route. We opened a string of for profit colleges. A lot of people got rich. Unfortunately, none of them were students.
9
and don't forget for profit charter schools too.
4
This country needs to recognize and promote vocational schools. Not everyone is cut out for college.
22
It's too practical.
Not to mention, some will decry it being (a form of) Socialism.
Not to mention, some will decry it being (a form of) Socialism.
4
There is a belief that vocational schools are the answer but this too is overstated. Everyone needs advanced reading, math and science skills along with computer skills. Vocational schools do not provide this!
1
Kathryn, it's not the Be-All-End-All Solution but it is one for those (SCORE wise it's a certainty by the 9th Grade) aren't cut out for College.
Now I admit it's not "American" to limit choice(s) for us.
But why keep a student on an Academic Path when their scores indicate otherwise?
Now I admit it's not "American" to limit choice(s) for us.
But why keep a student on an Academic Path when their scores indicate otherwise?
And then try to reconcile the dismal employability of America's young with the NY Times' editorial advocacy of the legalization of pot. The Times' logic: (a) the criminality of pot leads to "mass incarceration" and (b) pot is not worse than alcohol. No defense by the Times against the allegations that pot usage undermines the employability of many and the money that is spent on pot goes up in smoke rather than otherwise being available, say, for the enrichment of users' children, for the users' medical care and insurance, and for users' retirement savings.
4
We learned a long time ago that banning an intoxicating substance does not decrease its use. Pot is not the cause of the problem, It is the temporary pain reliever for those who are suffering -- physically or emotionally. Banning it will not help any more than banning alcohol helped in the 20's.
5
In other words, legalizing any intoxicating substance will not increase its use. Therefore, we should legalize all now banned drugs, say, heroin, cocaine, methamphetamine, etc. According to this theory, the quality of our workforce and their ability to take care of themselves and their families will remain unchanged.
1
The tyranny of youthful indecision combined with the cruelty of economic happenstance. That describes more than 50% of collegiate students. I'm surprised so many obtain the tassel in four years. I support an apprenticeship program in this country as a meaningful alternative. Most college graduates struggle for want of connections rather than intellect. Job experience combined with education helps correct this imbalance.
However, I'm a little more nervous about handing the reigns almost entirely over to business. What happens when some CEO's vision doesn't quite work out? Imagine spending the best years of your youth learning to service Duncan parking meters in 1990. You're taking quite a leap of faith in management's strategic vision. Remember: it's much easier to abandon a generation of workers than it is to grow them.
However, I'm a little more nervous about handing the reigns almost entirely over to business. What happens when some CEO's vision doesn't quite work out? Imagine spending the best years of your youth learning to service Duncan parking meters in 1990. You're taking quite a leap of faith in management's strategic vision. Remember: it's much easier to abandon a generation of workers than it is to grow them.
7
As "The New Republic" discussed maybe 20 years ago, 19th century, US high schools graduated 15- and 16-year olds with a classical education equal to todays M.A. This was prior to the Dewey-eyed replacement of knowledge with consensus.
3
Not to mention that now 'feelings=facts' and everyone's feelings must be 'honored'.
1
Trump cannot in one week make up for the past 16 years of damage to the American worker. The lie from the past two presidents was: jobs Americans won't do. That made it easy to justify abandoning the teaching of those skills that have always been in demand, and it created a vicious, self-fulfilling cycle.
Eliminate the H1-b visas (have the holders train their American counterparts on their way out, of course) and deport all illegal aliens from our country. There will be disruption in the short term, but our nation will adjust and will be stronger in the long run.
Eliminate the H1-b visas (have the holders train their American counterparts on their way out, of course) and deport all illegal aliens from our country. There will be disruption in the short term, but our nation will adjust and will be stronger in the long run.
9
More like 40-50 years od damage. The decline in manufacturing began in the late 70's and has been accelerating.
2
In 1974 I graduated with a Masters degree in performance from a well known music conservatory. My degree was basically useless. After a few years of minimum wage jobs I enrolled in a Community College and took 3 computer programming classes.
I was then hired as a programmer trainee by an insurance company, and ten years later I became a Systems Development V.P. at a Wall St. firm. Many of my colleagues and managers, including our I.T. Director did not have College degrees. They were extremely talented people who either did not have the resources or the temperament to spend four years in college.
My twin brother had a similar experience with his music degree and my older brother, who did not have a college degree,was actually the most successful of all of us in the computer field.
I believe that a college education is very valuable in opening our minds to new ideas, learning history, and building social skills. I am grateful for my experiences in college, but it is not necessarily the best avenue for finding a satisfying job. And it is simply a luxury many cannot afford.
These new programs sound very promising for aspiring young people who are not college bound.
I was then hired as a programmer trainee by an insurance company, and ten years later I became a Systems Development V.P. at a Wall St. firm. Many of my colleagues and managers, including our I.T. Director did not have College degrees. They were extremely talented people who either did not have the resources or the temperament to spend four years in college.
My twin brother had a similar experience with his music degree and my older brother, who did not have a college degree,was actually the most successful of all of us in the computer field.
I believe that a college education is very valuable in opening our minds to new ideas, learning history, and building social skills. I am grateful for my experiences in college, but it is not necessarily the best avenue for finding a satisfying job. And it is simply a luxury many cannot afford.
These new programs sound very promising for aspiring young people who are not college bound.
10
Since the dawn of time everybody knows a music degree will not support a family. Not in 1950,60,70,80 90 or today. You knew that
9
Actually, some graduates from these conservatories do get good jobs in top orchestras, or professorships at Ivy League schools. Not many, but some.
2
I thought that playing musical instruments was a mathematical workout for the brain and makes you smarter? Seems to have worked for him and his brother,
1
The European high school graduate has two more years of education than the American, the equivalent of an AA or more.
We do our students no favors by making middle school and high school so easy and letting them pass.
Parents simply don't take education seriously.
We do our students no favors by making middle school and high school so easy and letting them pass.
Parents simply don't take education seriously.
33
Teachers dont take their job seriously And are hampered form individual expression by the UNION
4
Nope. Not quite right. Here in New York State where I taught Chemistry; I took my job very seriously. I did not like the vaunted snow days and the amount of time wasted by *every* administrator I worked for was, egregious. New York State set a minimum curriculum that I spent my own pay on to support. In some years close to a $1,000.00 dollars to support (my wife is a CPA and has the information to back me up).
I never felt the UNION got in my way; rather it was poor leadership from administrators, and frankly students that did not learn to value an education at home. Add to that a healthy mix of my students hovering just above the poverty line also did not help (remember Maslow's hierarchy of needs) - yeah - so if your parents had to choose between food for the month and fixing your broken foot; and they chose food - you can imagine the amount of Chemistry that student was interested in. That is just one example of what you are up against as a teacher in this country. Oh and the occasional character assassination.
But all this typing is almost certainly for naught. I am just tired of teachers always the scapegoat. There are hundreds of factors that contribute to school performance - teachers being an important one. But more importantly; the value being placed on an education being the more determining factor.
I never felt the UNION got in my way; rather it was poor leadership from administrators, and frankly students that did not learn to value an education at home. Add to that a healthy mix of my students hovering just above the poverty line also did not help (remember Maslow's hierarchy of needs) - yeah - so if your parents had to choose between food for the month and fixing your broken foot; and they chose food - you can imagine the amount of Chemistry that student was interested in. That is just one example of what you are up against as a teacher in this country. Oh and the occasional character assassination.
But all this typing is almost certainly for naught. I am just tired of teachers always the scapegoat. There are hundreds of factors that contribute to school performance - teachers being an important one. But more importantly; the value being placed on an education being the more determining factor.
8
If you want better teachers, you have to pay them more, and give them a little respect, like any profession.
6
It is a great system, but it still requires a good K-12 (or K-10) system. The elephant in the room is Dickens' Scrooge called "the surplus population." This economy isn't big enough to include all our population. Our free markets have never provided everybody with a living-wage job. What about the ones who don't fit into this economy? Draft them for the wars? Jail them for artificial sins? Establish abandoned ghettos and use our military police to hunt the rowdies in the streets?
4
Sadly, this does describe our times. Still there are jobs that go unfilled because there aren't enough educated people to take them. We waste many great minds through lack of education, not to mention discrimination.
2
A high school diploma was enough for Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Walter Cronkite, Peter Jennings and Tom Brokaw?
Technology has cost 2/3rd jobs of Americans jobs lost. Not trade agreements.
Steve Jobs biological father is an Arab American Muslim from Homs, Syria.
Technology has cost 2/3rd jobs of Americans jobs lost. Not trade agreements.
Steve Jobs biological father is an Arab American Muslim from Homs, Syria.
5
I've said similar, just not as bluntly as you have. Though actual jobs Americans used to do did go to (much) Cheaper Markets at the same time as the world became more digital. Hit twice IOWs.
Problem, those jobs can't logically come back AND pay Americans a Decent American Wage. There isn't a viable case to make to bring back jobs that paid $15-20 an hour, now paying $4.00 in another country.
"Technology has cost 2/3rd jobs of Americans jobs lost. Not trade agreements."
Problem, those jobs can't logically come back AND pay Americans a Decent American Wage. There isn't a viable case to make to bring back jobs that paid $15-20 an hour, now paying $4.00 in another country.
"Technology has cost 2/3rd jobs of Americans jobs lost. Not trade agreements."
4
@MarkAntney
Cheap labor sent jobs overseas before any trade agreements.
"Made in Japan" was a joke in the 1950's and 1960's. Just like "Made in China" was in the 1990's and 2000's.
The federal income tax code sends our jobs and their money overseas as well
Bolsheviks were first in space from the Soviet Union. But NASA was led by Nazi German rocket scientists.
China's air, water and land are polluted by a fixation on fossil fuels that is sickening and killing millions of Chinese.
America lags in public school STEM and vocational education and training.
Cheap labor sent jobs overseas before any trade agreements.
"Made in Japan" was a joke in the 1950's and 1960's. Just like "Made in China" was in the 1990's and 2000's.
The federal income tax code sends our jobs and their money overseas as well
Bolsheviks were first in space from the Soviet Union. But NASA was led by Nazi German rocket scientists.
China's air, water and land are polluted by a fixation on fossil fuels that is sickening and killing millions of Chinese.
America lags in public school STEM and vocational education and training.
2
I don't understand why you would group hate mongers and con artists, Beck etc. with people like Jobs, Gates and Cronkite.
Poor examples aside, it has to be said that these men were the exception.
Poor examples aside, it has to be said that these men were the exception.
1
This kind of Technical training is expensive. Which is likely why Community Colleges don't have that many apprentice classes. A college here in Silicon Valley offers degrees in aircraft maintenance.
The students work on an older Boeing jetliner parked off the apron at San Jose Mineta Airport. Yes it was probably donated, but it's generations of technology older than what graduates will have to work on. Ideally, companies would provide, or donate, their latest equipment, but that raises many issues of intellectual property. They don't want to be "training their competitors" or seeing leaks of new technology they are just bringing to market.
On the question of getting a degree in engineering vs becoming a technician, something like aerospace used to hire buildings full of Engineers with a BS to do calculations and design work. Now the workforce needed are PhD's and MS Engineers that can work on $15,000 workstation computers; which are essentially supercomputers that can 3D model and produce the control files to drive computer controlled machining equipment.
The students work on an older Boeing jetliner parked off the apron at San Jose Mineta Airport. Yes it was probably donated, but it's generations of technology older than what graduates will have to work on. Ideally, companies would provide, or donate, their latest equipment, but that raises many issues of intellectual property. They don't want to be "training their competitors" or seeing leaks of new technology they are just bringing to market.
On the question of getting a degree in engineering vs becoming a technician, something like aerospace used to hire buildings full of Engineers with a BS to do calculations and design work. Now the workforce needed are PhD's and MS Engineers that can work on $15,000 workstation computers; which are essentially supercomputers that can 3D model and produce the control files to drive computer controlled machining equipment.
6
Our community colleges can't even offer calculus based physics, because the profs are all adjuncts, and anyone who knows calculus or physics isn't going to get paid and be treated the way adjuncts are. Same for HS teachers who teach dual credit courses.
Realistically, how many people can go to college? At what IQ level does college become a frustrating time waste? We can't kick those Americans with low IQs out of the country. And they breed, and vote.
Realistically, how many people can go to college? At what IQ level does college become a frustrating time waste? We can't kick those Americans with low IQs out of the country. And they breed, and vote.
3
We have German family friends whose son was identified at 14 as unlikely to prosper in the academic university track.
After a battery of aptitude tests his counselors recommended that he transfer to a "beer high school" in his hometown of Munich. At Beer High he studied Beer chemisty, industrial managment, accounting, inventory management, and glass science among more conventional subjects.
In his eleventh and twelfth years he spent half of each day in an apprenticeship at a Becks brewery and half the day in school.
Upon graduation he was hired by Becks. At age 20 he was sent to Namibia to be assistant plant manager of a brewery. At 23 he became a plant manager in another country.
From unpromising 14 year old to successful middle class manager at 23 with technical/financial/managerial skills.
This would never happen in America.
After a battery of aptitude tests his counselors recommended that he transfer to a "beer high school" in his hometown of Munich. At Beer High he studied Beer chemisty, industrial managment, accounting, inventory management, and glass science among more conventional subjects.
In his eleventh and twelfth years he spent half of each day in an apprenticeship at a Becks brewery and half the day in school.
Upon graduation he was hired by Becks. At age 20 he was sent to Namibia to be assistant plant manager of a brewery. At 23 he became a plant manager in another country.
From unpromising 14 year old to successful middle class manager at 23 with technical/financial/managerial skills.
This would never happen in America.
64
On the other hand, there are guys in their 20s in the US who have opened their own breweries, and are selling oak-cask sour beer to rich hipsters for $10 a bottle.
That would never happen in Germany.
That would never happen in Germany.
4
The craft brewers here in the US are ex software devs living the dream....
7
A great example of what we need to do in the US. It takes cooperation between the schools and industry, but it could and should be done.
2
Today's modern manufacturing is about mathematics in motion. In both Germany and Switzerland a rigorous mathematics proficiency is a must for acceptance into a manufacturing apprenticeship program.
Until USA High Schools truly graduate mathematically competent students, who are not planning on going immediately to college, neither the German nor the Swiss model of apprenticeship will be applicable to us, on any meaningful scale.
Until USA High Schools truly graduate mathematically competent students, who are not planning on going immediately to college, neither the German nor the Swiss model of apprenticeship will be applicable to us, on any meaningful scale.
14
I am retired for five years now. I worked as a Machinist for 50+ years, starting with an Apprenticeship. I was frustrated by so many who could not do simple math in their head, had trouble reading written operation sheets, and thought it was acceptable to come in to work late a few times a week. But, it was a two way street. The wages offered in to skilled machine operators during my last years were the same as were paid in the 1980's.
Blame should be shared equally between our school systems and the unwillingness of employers to pay a fair wage.
Blame should be shared equally between our school systems and the unwillingness of employers to pay a fair wage.
15
The counter to your story is why pay accelerated wages to apprentices who don't possess basic math skills. Industry is unbelievably adept at paying for performance. No talent no pay
2
And then there are the actual people who must share part of the blame. Many of our students don't want to learn and their parents support them in being slackers.
4
Are we stupid or what?
College was invented for the comfortable sons, and later daughters, of the financially well off, people who could afford to spend four more or less leisurely years hitting the books, socializing and getting ready for full adulthood. Aside from those who go on to professional training, its ultimate aim is not to prepare people for work nor to educate people broadly. The purpose of college is to find people who will go on to get a Ph.D. and be professors themselves, keeping the cycle going.
One reason that a lot of so called working class kids don't go to college, or don't finish, is that four years seems to be a bridge too far. Further, the subject matter and the idea of sitting in classrooms basically accomplishing nothing but good grades runs against the social idea of being productive and learning practical skills. If your family has struggled with money problems, being essentially idle has a lot less appeal.
In many if not most cases, students who come from backgrounds where hands and heads are supposed to work together in employment are shunted aside by the educational system, encouraged to think of a life ahead that doesn't involve a lot of work with the brain. The time for this kind of system is long past. You don't need a "gentleman's" education to work in technical fields, but no other standard has arisen. We are wasting hundreds of thousands of lives and opportunities with the "college is the only way" model.
College was invented for the comfortable sons, and later daughters, of the financially well off, people who could afford to spend four more or less leisurely years hitting the books, socializing and getting ready for full adulthood. Aside from those who go on to professional training, its ultimate aim is not to prepare people for work nor to educate people broadly. The purpose of college is to find people who will go on to get a Ph.D. and be professors themselves, keeping the cycle going.
One reason that a lot of so called working class kids don't go to college, or don't finish, is that four years seems to be a bridge too far. Further, the subject matter and the idea of sitting in classrooms basically accomplishing nothing but good grades runs against the social idea of being productive and learning practical skills. If your family has struggled with money problems, being essentially idle has a lot less appeal.
In many if not most cases, students who come from backgrounds where hands and heads are supposed to work together in employment are shunted aside by the educational system, encouraged to think of a life ahead that doesn't involve a lot of work with the brain. The time for this kind of system is long past. You don't need a "gentleman's" education to work in technical fields, but no other standard has arisen. We are wasting hundreds of thousands of lives and opportunities with the "college is the only way" model.
6
Engineering is a serious exception to your thesis. get an engineering degree you will always have work
1
Sort of. Until you are 50. Then if you haven't gotten into management, perhaps because you like engineering, you will train your replacement H1B from India, or your cheap and hungry new college grad replacement at half price, and kiss your working life goodbye. We don't need all the people we have, anywhere in the world. There is no shortage of humans anywhere.
10
I'm sorry but that's simply not true. When my husband went to college 40 years ago it was perfectly affordable and that was back when most families only had one income.
I was in mostly honors and general ed classes when I went to public high school from '04 to '08 in Central PA. I rarely had homework and little was expected of me while I was in class. English class was story time, literally the teacher reading us books - all four years. If I came into class with a blank piece of math homework, I still got a C+, because any grade less than average is thought to lower a student's self-esteem.
The standards are so low in public schools that anyone who trips and falls over the bar will still land in a comfortable place. Our culture has become obsessed with equal outcome (different from equal opportunity) and making sure everyone feels as though they are succeeding, regardless of whether it is a delusion.
This article should bring to the reader's attention the lost potential of those four years of high school, the little value of a high school diploma, and that people now have to spend an additional four years at a college to make up for it.
The standards are so low in public schools that anyone who trips and falls over the bar will still land in a comfortable place. Our culture has become obsessed with equal outcome (different from equal opportunity) and making sure everyone feels as though they are succeeding, regardless of whether it is a delusion.
This article should bring to the reader's attention the lost potential of those four years of high school, the little value of a high school diploma, and that people now have to spend an additional four years at a college to make up for it.
5
There are factory jobs for people with out college, but the pay is minimum wage and the work is very fast paced. No citizen will do them when they can get an easy minimum wage job or a higher paying fast pace job like fast food. I worked in a Bath and Body Works factory for less than minimum wage and only a few people on the lines could speak english. Because no one who is a citizen would work these type of factory jobs. I guess are government needs to pick and choose which factory jobs we want and which factory jobs we don't want.
If we got rid of the illegal immigrants, they would have to raise the wages to attract citizens. Of course, we'd have to pare back programs that make working for a living optional. All factory jobs are worthwhile.
4
Or we dont need to flood America with an over abundant cheap non english speaking workforce. We cannot accept all the world in the US
5
Since when is fast food higher paying and how many people do you know who manage to live on a minimum wage job without public assistance? This kind of ignorance is astonishing.
Considering the poor design of these "testing" questions, I now question the quality of the Siemens product shown in the photo appearing at the beginning of the article. Probably, Siemens will go out-of-business, sometime in the Future. This company is not in position to last. To improve, hire people who can see how flawed these "Mechanical Aptitude" questions are. Then have those same people, redesign Siemens products.
1
Perhaps because I answered each one in less than five seconds and got them all right, I don't see the "poor design" to which you refer.
The most basic familiarity with tools is all you need to get these right.
The most basic familiarity with tools is all you need to get these right.
3
These are just designed to be aptitude questions, not their product engineering designs! Siemens has been a highly respected, successful, advanced technology company for quite a long time.
Or did you get all three questions wrong? Don't worry I only got 2/3 right. Basic physics, principle of leverage.
Or did you get all three questions wrong? Don't worry I only got 2/3 right. Basic physics, principle of leverage.
2
The comments here that are most interesting to me are about the cognitive skills of the North Carolina population. If Siemens is such a clever company, why did it locate a facility that needs high-skill workers in a region that is not able to supply them? Several other commentators here suspect that it was the low-wage and tax incentive features of the state that fed into Siemens' decision. So I guess to staff the plant, people from elsewhere in the U.S. and beyond will be part of the solution. And resentment among the locals will grow.
8
This!
Public K12 schools need to be much better teaching curiosity and excitement for the future. To do so, they need to be much better funded.
4
50% of the budget in NY schools goes to teacher's pensions, which average $67,500 a year at age 55 after 30 years of work.
2
Apprenticeships historically have been the mechanism to transmit skills and knowledge from one generation to the next. How can that be relevant in a world where skills and knowledge become obsolete within a single generation? The pace of technological change is forcing contemplation of preparing job seekers with the skills to perform jobs that didn't exist in the world of their trainers. Good luck.
3
I I found this article to b very informative. I graduated from college in the early 1970s. I could have taught, given my degree, but I also lived in an automotive town. When the factories were hiring, it became a no-brained to go to the UAW-represented factories and apply, as the wages and benefits were much higher. I got on at one of the factories, worked for over thirty years, retired at a young age and glad I did. Probably my biggest frustration though was lack of advancement opportunities. So much of what went on, surprisingly to at least me, was based on family-ties. If you had family in management, you advanced, education be darned, to even a low-level management position. If your family was into union positions, you moved along those lines. Skilled trades= skilled trades a lot. And if you didn't have any familial ties, like I did not, you just stayed at the bottom of the pecking order, no matter your previous education. I can't tell you how many bosses I had that had no where near the education I had, and it was frustrating at times to see how they formulated decisions. Still, I'm glad now that I did what I did.
I hope things are different now. I always felt that education was put on the back burner, even for management.
I hope things are different now. I always felt that education was put on the back burner, even for management.
8
Obviously, this is just another liberal ploy to mock Mr. Trump and prevent him from saving the jobs of coal miners in Pennsylvania.
The vast majority of American voters saw through the arrogance and contempt Hillary expressed in her barely veiled offer of training and education to dislocated workers. And they voted against it. Get over it already.
Thank God for President Trump. Under Obama's PC presidency, foreigners like Siemens Energy got the idea THEY could decide what kind workers to hire, THEY could decide how much education is enough for an American citizen; THEY could slather computers all over their Euro-Factories.
If we hadn't dumped Obama and Hillary it wouldn't have been long before Siemens and other foreigners would try to force us to spend tax money on education.
No. The voters have spoken, and a massive majority have said "Not Gonna Happen Here, Siemens. Take your fancy jobs back where they came from". Thank God for President Trump. And God Bless America.
The vast majority of American voters saw through the arrogance and contempt Hillary expressed in her barely veiled offer of training and education to dislocated workers. And they voted against it. Get over it already.
Thank God for President Trump. Under Obama's PC presidency, foreigners like Siemens Energy got the idea THEY could decide what kind workers to hire, THEY could decide how much education is enough for an American citizen; THEY could slather computers all over their Euro-Factories.
If we hadn't dumped Obama and Hillary it wouldn't have been long before Siemens and other foreigners would try to force us to spend tax money on education.
No. The voters have spoken, and a massive majority have said "Not Gonna Happen Here, Siemens. Take your fancy jobs back where they came from". Thank God for President Trump. And God Bless America.
5
I assume that this is sarcasm, right?
3
Ron
What's scary is that it's kind of hard to tell.
What's scary is that it's kind of hard to tell.
2
I was reasonably certain that I could tell, but I did wonder about the reader recommendations you have garnered. Were they appreciating the satire or endorsing the literal sentiments? That's the scary part.
Thanks.
Thanks.
Unemployed laborers in the Rust Belt and heartland of this country will not find this article appealing. They want to turn back the clock to a time when one actually could make a decent living with only a high school diploma, even if one slept through high school, something I was able to do until the late nineties, when some HR folk decided that one needed a degree but zero skills to be an administrative assistant, and the cost of living skyrocketed in many areas where they were still jobs.
Those days are done, but what do we do about those who were left behind, and never provided the skills while growing up to better educate themselves as adults? These people were taught they could survive without such skills, and the world has pulled the rug out from under them.
Those days are done, but what do we do about those who were left behind, and never provided the skills while growing up to better educate themselves as adults? These people were taught they could survive without such skills, and the world has pulled the rug out from under them.
3
Excellent article. Everyone is quick to put blame on the education system. There are bad schools there are great schools. The issue is not school or teachers per se but our culture. We allow parents to control school boards and not professionals. Teachers are accused of not educating but education is a process of participation where the student must actively learn. Now we are on the precipice of no homework because the concept that the student is too stressed. What is needed is to let the professionals do their job and if a student fails it is on the student not the teacher. When everyone takes education seriously that's when we will succeed, currently we as a nation look down on education and make fun of teachers and professors. It is not about paying it is about respecting. There is also a need to understand that a proper education teaches about problem solving and not always necessarily a specific skill.
Lets as a nation support college for everyone at low or no cost but it does not mean because it is free everyone gets in, you'll still need the grades. Parents need to sit at the kitchen table with their child and work with them on their homework and this will be the start.
Lets as a nation support college for everyone at low or no cost but it does not mean because it is free everyone gets in, you'll still need the grades. Parents need to sit at the kitchen table with their child and work with them on their homework and this will be the start.
4
Factory jobs aren't coming back. If a tariff is imposed US companies will build here using automation. Unless your a Luddite, we need to accept this simple fact of human technology and evolution.
1
"... some 10,000 people showed up at a job fair for 800 positions. But fewer than 15 percent of the applicants were able to pass a reading, writing and math screening test geared toward a ninth-grade education."
Was that a German 9th-grade education level or an American 9th-grade level?
I ask because, when testing is done of "developed nations", the United States usually hauls up last. "We're Number 30! We're Number 30!"
I always wonder why no one ever asks the countries that come in 1 through 10, what it is that they are doing differently.... but we never do, do we?
Now we have Betsy DeVos, and, gosh, does she have the answers! Charter schools! Bust the education unions! Drain all the students out of public education so their collapsing budget kills the non-religious, public schools!
It has been the goal of every Republican to dissolve the Department of Education from Reagan's administration to this very moment.
We have a President who twitters. His words are misspelled. He can't speak in complete sentences. His signature is unreadable.
To those who voted for Trump/Pence: This is the future you have given the American children, given to your own children and.... no, I don't think you could have passed the ninth-grade test, either. You, too, would not have been hired for this training program.
And, to the rest of you: How DO the top ten nations do it?
Let's find out.
"If you think education is expensive - wait til you find out how expensive ignorance is!"
Was that a German 9th-grade education level or an American 9th-grade level?
I ask because, when testing is done of "developed nations", the United States usually hauls up last. "We're Number 30! We're Number 30!"
I always wonder why no one ever asks the countries that come in 1 through 10, what it is that they are doing differently.... but we never do, do we?
Now we have Betsy DeVos, and, gosh, does she have the answers! Charter schools! Bust the education unions! Drain all the students out of public education so their collapsing budget kills the non-religious, public schools!
It has been the goal of every Republican to dissolve the Department of Education from Reagan's administration to this very moment.
We have a President who twitters. His words are misspelled. He can't speak in complete sentences. His signature is unreadable.
To those who voted for Trump/Pence: This is the future you have given the American children, given to your own children and.... no, I don't think you could have passed the ninth-grade test, either. You, too, would not have been hired for this training program.
And, to the rest of you: How DO the top ten nations do it?
Let's find out.
"If you think education is expensive - wait til you find out how expensive ignorance is!"
7
Young people should be in the forefront of knowledge and education and lead the way. Especially in technology.
1
The reality of getting a manufacturing job is grin. The poor "Right to Work" anti-unions States have attracted businesses like Siemens and John Deer because of their low wages and anti-union stance. Unfortunately those same states put little importance on a decent Public School Education. So there are few people living in those states with the education to run a computer. On the other hand, here in California almost every high school graduate could do the work. But Siemens and John Deer won't move her because they would have to pay a living wage.
3
It says right in the article: "Dr. Carnevale’s research has found that 40 percent of middle-skills jobs pay more than $55,000 a year; some 14 percent pay more than $80,000 (by comparison, the median salary for young adults with a bachelor’s degree is $50,000)."
Moreover, these places are located in areas with a low cost of living. You can buy a nice house for $125K, and property tax is $800 a year.
Moreover, these places are located in areas with a low cost of living. You can buy a nice house for $125K, and property tax is $800 a year.
A college degree does not equip the graduate or the drop out with the necessary skills. Colleges are not meant to do that. A well run apprenticeship program will give the apprentices the experiences they need to find or move into and up in jobs in the field they've chosen. In America we've made college into a place for everyone rather than what it ought to be and was: a place for the intellectually curious and intelligent to pursue knowledge. I went to college in the late 70s and graduated with a degree in science. Even then there were students who could not read on a high school level, who could not do simple math, whose idea of a hard week was the hangover from their Friday to Sunday binge on liquor.
The truth is that most entry level jobs do not require a college degree. They require a good solid high school education coupled with an apprenticeship. Jobs further up the ladder require more training from employers. Yet this country's employers do not invest in their employees. They do not care about the quality of the work that goes into the product. They care only about the bottom line. When that's the only part that matters quality becomes irrelevant as do employees who care. We need to bring back on the job training, apprenticeships, and unions(to protect employees). We need to lose the mindset that college is the only place to go after high school.
The truth is that most entry level jobs do not require a college degree. They require a good solid high school education coupled with an apprenticeship. Jobs further up the ladder require more training from employers. Yet this country's employers do not invest in their employees. They do not care about the quality of the work that goes into the product. They care only about the bottom line. When that's the only part that matters quality becomes irrelevant as do employees who care. We need to bring back on the job training, apprenticeships, and unions(to protect employees). We need to lose the mindset that college is the only place to go after high school.
70
Our education system is a dismal failure. Where I live, it's so bad that most of the clerks in the fast food joints literally cannot do simple math. No one shows up for work and if you drug test forget it. We need to totally re-haul our system. It is more than awful.
17
This is why it is so important to have a Secretary of Education who is willing to battle with the harmful School Establishment. Most urban public schools are run with a single goal: to provide cushy jobs with pensions to UNION MEMBERS.
Many workers in failing school districts need to be cross-competed with the open market, meaning most should lose their jobs.. And many of these failing schools and school districts need to be eliminated immediately. Separate-but-equal is illegal. Many educators and administrators are violating Brown vs. Board all the time.
Many workers in failing school districts need to be cross-competed with the open market, meaning most should lose their jobs.. And many of these failing schools and school districts need to be eliminated immediately. Separate-but-equal is illegal. Many educators and administrators are violating Brown vs. Board all the time.
> Our education system is a dismal failure
Is that the one owned by the govt and guided by Leftists?
Is that the one owned by the govt and guided by Leftists?
My kids are in a great school. Almost every school system within my region of the state ranges from good to excellent.
My kids range from 4th grade to senior high. They all do things significantly more difficult that I did in their respective grade levels. Especially in math. As for drug testing - teens today are far less likely to use drugs than teens in the 1970s and 80s.
We have always had the undereducated in society. If you go back prior to WWII many states did not require education past 8th grade, and the majority of Americans did not finish high school. In 1929 only 25% of American adults had a high school diploma.
Whenever I hear someone bemoaning the state of education in the country it is always safe to assume they have not set foot in a school since they graduated, if they managed to graduate themselves.
My kids range from 4th grade to senior high. They all do things significantly more difficult that I did in their respective grade levels. Especially in math. As for drug testing - teens today are far less likely to use drugs than teens in the 1970s and 80s.
We have always had the undereducated in society. If you go back prior to WWII many states did not require education past 8th grade, and the majority of Americans did not finish high school. In 1929 only 25% of American adults had a high school diploma.
Whenever I hear someone bemoaning the state of education in the country it is always safe to assume they have not set foot in a school since they graduated, if they managed to graduate themselves.
Does anyone really think that Bettsy Devos would have a clue about this? After I watched her answers during her confirmation hearing, it was obvious she did not.
25
Correct observation and here's the unvarnished truth; probably most of the commenters here are more qualified than Bettsy Devos to be Secretary of Education. Sad.
Sure. So maybe Trump's Secretary of Education pick, Betsy DeVos, whose only educational credential is a BA from a religious college, cans step in to help.
Ummm....first she will defund public schools. Second she will take taxpayer money and stick it into schools, private, that do not even have to publicize their testing data.
Do you think while she's giving churches who pay no taxes a chance to recruit their Christianity (trust us, she will not be promoting any other religious schools but dear Christian) she's going to give high schools and colleges any money for trades? She doesn't have a clue how that would work!
Call your legislators if you value this article. It stresses education. They should be very concerned with the idea of inept Betsy DeVos making a difference.
Ummm....first she will defund public schools. Second she will take taxpayer money and stick it into schools, private, that do not even have to publicize their testing data.
Do you think while she's giving churches who pay no taxes a chance to recruit their Christianity (trust us, she will not be promoting any other religious schools but dear Christian) she's going to give high schools and colleges any money for trades? She doesn't have a clue how that would work!
Call your legislators if you value this article. It stresses education. They should be very concerned with the idea of inept Betsy DeVos making a difference.
28
> defund public schools
Capitalism defunds failure. Socialism empathizes with failure.
Capitalism defunds failure. Socialism empathizes with failure.
As a American residing for a long time in Switzerland I am very familiar with the apprentice system they have here. There are over 240 different vocations that the kids can go for.. But they must apply for these with a CV and cover letter along with their grades and scores from a standardised tests.
After this they go thru a normal interview process where they need to dress up and talk about why they would like to be an apprentice in the particular field. This is quite intimidating for a 14 or 15 year old but it is also a valuable learning experience for the future. There is also large competition for desired apprenticeships with firms like Siemens and the kids realize that grades, communication skills and appearance matter. After you make it thru the first round there is a 3 to 5 day tryout period where the kid has to go and see how they fit in the team of the company.
While some fields have many positions available, other fields offer only a few positions (as these are paid positions offered by business that need to train that skill for their own use). For example my kids wanted to do an apprenticeship in photography and in the whole area of Zurich there were only 3 available. Therefore it became quite clear to my kid that she has to be really good to grab those. She eventually decided to go for office administration and finance where she will finish in 3 years and can go to further schooling or look for a job.
After this they go thru a normal interview process where they need to dress up and talk about why they would like to be an apprentice in the particular field. This is quite intimidating for a 14 or 15 year old but it is also a valuable learning experience for the future. There is also large competition for desired apprenticeships with firms like Siemens and the kids realize that grades, communication skills and appearance matter. After you make it thru the first round there is a 3 to 5 day tryout period where the kid has to go and see how they fit in the team of the company.
While some fields have many positions available, other fields offer only a few positions (as these are paid positions offered by business that need to train that skill for their own use). For example my kids wanted to do an apprenticeship in photography and in the whole area of Zurich there were only 3 available. Therefore it became quite clear to my kid that she has to be really good to grab those. She eventually decided to go for office administration and finance where she will finish in 3 years and can go to further schooling or look for a job.
14
Sam, a question. Did your daughter feel slighted because of this? And did she realize that she can pursue photography as a hobby? I'm asking because it seems to me that many high school students in America are encouraged to go into fields without understanding what is needed or if they are truly good enough to make it.
8
And encouraged to change majors willy nilly to their own detriment also.
2
I am tutoring a PhD candidate... in 8th grade algebra!
42
Presumably, though, this person has high-level skills in other areas that he/she will use to be productive in a field other than math?
So? If they are a PhD candidate in a field that did not utilize math it is no wonder they need remediation. When I took the GRE I had not taken a math class in 20 years, and never had any practical application of algebra in my professional life. I needed to go back and relearn how to solve for variables and what the Pythagorean theorem was too.
2
Observe what the public school system of America has wrought. Siemens found that only 1500 of 10,000 applicants displayed a 9th grade education level during their search for factory workers. The dumbing down of American education continues. Now Governor Cuomo wants to extend that dumbing down to college, using taxpayer money to pay the college costs of any family making less than $125,000 a year. We need less college applicants, not more. a college education today has become the high school education of the past. It's time to make a high school education in america what it used to be, and to turn to the tried and true trade school system that allows countries like Germany to rule the manufacturing world.
13
No, you are wrong. Look at what the politics of republican Conservatism has wrought. This article is about the anti-worker, anti-education, anti-worker politics of the red states. On the West Coast or New England, there are plety of high school graduates who have the education and skills needed for theses factory jobs. But Siemens and John Deer moved to the South because of low wages, minimum benefits and lax worker protections. They are getting what they deserve.
9
Despite the "progressive" call of "free college for everyone" it is generally acknowledged that an IQ of at least 110 is required to do college level work which would automatically eliminate almost 60% of all high school graduates.
1
Another road block to apprenticeships gaining traction in this country is the party culture prevalent at U.S. colleges. Taking an apprenticeship involves working hard through-out the day and taking classes at night. Not many 18 year olds idea of what college should be like. The American idea that college should be the time of your life encourages these individuals to instead take out loans and attend a 4-year degree program.
14
Try taking a few college classes.
Those engaged in the easy to see "party culture" are not the ones finishing their degrees. They are not the majority, they are just noisy, lewd, obnoxious, and visible. Sort of like trump supporters.
Those engaged in the easy to see "party culture" are not the ones finishing their degrees. They are not the majority, they are just noisy, lewd, obnoxious, and visible. Sort of like trump supporters.
2
Most college students, and I include community college here, are young women with at least one child (and often no husband). I assure you, they are no longer partying. They are trying not to starve, to keep their junk car running, to keep getting hours waitressing, and to pass their classes while worrying about their kid, who knows who is watching that baby....
1
This article further highlights the uselessness of Trump's claims about bringing high paying factory jobs back to the US for his less educated, white working class base. Not going to happen that way. Basically, the jobs for that group will be in the fields, emptied of Mexican and other migrants, or down at the big-box retailers, which are disappearing themselves, by the way.
Trump; "I love the uneducated."
Trump; "I love the uneducated."
24
I'm a strong believer in the apprentice program but these new jobs require skills that a large number of people are simply not going to be able to learn. Not every person has the intelligence or even drive to learn the complex technical information that's needed today. What about them?
4
So, Trump creates factory jobs, but American workers are too poorly educated to be hired to do them. So, manufacturers have no choice but to bring in foreign workers, while Americans sit at home and complain that there's no jobs. Sounds about right.
22
We were fortunate to learn about the German educational system while our daughter was a high school exchange student there. Their system is divided into 3 tracks, with the middle track producing the kinds of workers needed by these employers. They make a nice living. Sounds like an overhaul of our system is needed, but from the earliest grades upward, similar to what the Germans do.
10
Some 15 years ago I worked as the head of technology of a small company that managed large US Flagged merchant ships that sailed the world.
That environment was unique as far as computing was concerned. Ships have unique electrical systems.
I fired too many consultants because that were all "college educated" in the extreme. They could not think out of the box to solve the problems.
In my case I am a "College Boy", but, I grew up in a rural town that the High School had a occupational adult retraining program in electronics on its campus. Some of us kids could take an electronics class, two hours a day. I did for four years. It was geared as an apprentice type class.
What I learned in that time coupled with my four years at the University of California made me somewhat unique. That combination allowed me to solve some real world problems in a "brick and mortar" business that others could not.
I ended up hiring a group of people who also had backgrounds that had some aspects of what we would term apprenticeship like work.
Although I have not worked for that company for 15 years, the majority of the team I created is still taking care of their computing needs.
The all college thing is stupid. Some people are just not temperamentally suited to college. Some jobs also require a hybrid of tactile apprenticeship type experience as well as some aspects of a formal college education.
Siemens figured that out, just as I did 15 years go. When will the rest of us?
That environment was unique as far as computing was concerned. Ships have unique electrical systems.
I fired too many consultants because that were all "college educated" in the extreme. They could not think out of the box to solve the problems.
In my case I am a "College Boy", but, I grew up in a rural town that the High School had a occupational adult retraining program in electronics on its campus. Some of us kids could take an electronics class, two hours a day. I did for four years. It was geared as an apprentice type class.
What I learned in that time coupled with my four years at the University of California made me somewhat unique. That combination allowed me to solve some real world problems in a "brick and mortar" business that others could not.
I ended up hiring a group of people who also had backgrounds that had some aspects of what we would term apprenticeship like work.
Although I have not worked for that company for 15 years, the majority of the team I created is still taking care of their computing needs.
The all college thing is stupid. Some people are just not temperamentally suited to college. Some jobs also require a hybrid of tactile apprenticeship type experience as well as some aspects of a formal college education.
Siemens figured that out, just as I did 15 years go. When will the rest of us?
5
If "fewer than 15 percent of the applicants were able to pass a reading, writing and math screening test geared toward a ninth-grade education," how did they graduate from high school? Why did the teachers let them graduate? The average American is cheated by public schools and teachers, and who do politicians let this go on and on?
5
Their parents don't care, as long as the football team wins often enough on Friday nights. Tiger parents educate their kids outside of school so that in school the tiger kids can take all the hard courses and ace them. Then they get into Ivies, Tech or big state schools with good engineering and science programs. And the football king and cheerleader queen wonder why their best days ended at the senior prom.
3
Long time ago, 1960's, I argued that college was not for everyone. Our vocational ed programs should be expanded. If anything, the vocational ed schools suffered from lack of funds and support. I was amazed when on business I toured a vocational ed school. The students were learning a trade which required geometry and advanced math. Part of their education required they take the courses and be proficient. Here we are in 2017 advocating college for every one. Big mistake. High school students should be directed either into a vocational path or college depending on aptitude, and interests. A vocational education should not be considered 2nd class. Highly trained and experienced mechanics, machine operators, etc, can and do make more money than many college grads.
8
Many of them are too poorly educated to be successful in these vocational education programs, so they have to go to a four-year college instead.
"Many high school students rush off to four-year campuses not ready for the academic work ..."
And why would that be? LA County simply graduates anyone who can breath (and possible some who cannot any longer) to make the teachers (and their Union) look better. Of course, they had to lower the standards to do so, but why let teaching get in the way?
And why would that be? LA County simply graduates anyone who can breath (and possible some who cannot any longer) to make the teachers (and their Union) look better. Of course, they had to lower the standards to do so, but why let teaching get in the way?
4
I am on the apprenticeship committee at my plant. Our toolmakers and machinists traditionally have followed an apprenticeship track. Over a decade ago the company stopped hiring apprentices because the business was spotty and outside services could be found. Now there is a severe shortage of skilled people all around so we have restarted the program and currently have three apprentices. It is the kind of hands-on brain work that appeals to many clever people who were frustrated as high school students with their academic offerings. What surprises many is that there is so much to know and so much room to grow. These are trades that you can really sink your teeth into. No doubt there are opportunities to modify today's educational structure.
BTW - I went to CPCC a long time ago and it is a great school. Back when I went it was just short of free ($40/QTR in 1980). Now I see it costs a couple grand to go there - still affordable but not as affordable.
BTW - I went to CPCC a long time ago and it is a great school. Back when I went it was just short of free ($40/QTR in 1980). Now I see it costs a couple grand to go there - still affordable but not as affordable.
8
Aren't they afraid they will train people who will then turn around and get a better job at another employer? That is the usual reason for not doing this.
Do you take 50 year olds with 3 degrees already? I'd love to run a CNC mill again.
1
Bringing jobs back to people qualified and prepared should have been stated instead. But of course politicians are not that naive. It is sad to say that many people are not prepared or even realized how much it requires to prevail at work. At work, we have a huge problem of finding qualified people performing tedious and repetitive tasks. The pay is very reasonable and competitive. But no college graduate can perform well. They all have the same attitude that "I am too smart for this job".
I hated the idea of free college and the idea is so out of touch and inresponsible. I really think that the Governor of Colorado has Presidential materials. He was a small business owner and he has a science degree. America needs leaders like him.
Finally, silicon valley should finally wake up. The business model of bringing in people from around the world is socially inresponsible! However, I think AI and automation will play a much bigger role. Clearly, the conflict of interest between business owners and politicians will continuously collide against each other.
I hated the idea of free college and the idea is so out of touch and inresponsible. I really think that the Governor of Colorado has Presidential materials. He was a small business owner and he has a science degree. America needs leaders like him.
Finally, silicon valley should finally wake up. The business model of bringing in people from around the world is socially inresponsible! However, I think AI and automation will play a much bigger role. Clearly, the conflict of interest between business owners and politicians will continuously collide against each other.
3
Taxpaid college should only be those who are qualified. The rest should choose vocational school. But nothing is easy.
1
We need the European system (Switzerland and Germany) of providing public education, to University and to Colleges for Careers. ... I hope that if infrastructure is built that it will not focus on more roads and asphalt parking lots, but instead a system for rail travel as countries in Europe. There the Post also runs buses, a bank, and delivers mail in rural areas on the Post Bus. You can go anywhere by rail and bus and tram.
3
The unfortunate thing is that Hillary Clinton talked about job re-training and apprenticeships for the laid off factory workers, but that wasn't as sexy as the blustering slogan "Make America Great Again". As the saying goes "Too soon old, too late smart."
2
You think some employer is going to let you walk up and start working with a multi-million dollar piece of machinery without any specialized training. There are no shortcuts in life - when are we going to learn this? Yeah, sure you can walk up and get a burger and your phone works within seconds but there is science and technology behind that efficiency.
7
This is one of the saddest parts about people who have pinned their hopes on moving manufacturing back to the US. New factories simply won't employ as many people, and those people will not be from the group that right now is struggling the most with employment. The Trump supporters I spoke with early in last years campaign, were well off, from regions pretty nearly devoid of recent immigrants, but very worried for their children, who had either moved away, or fallen into drug abuse and dead end jobs (Cashiers at gas marts, etc..) Those children would not be employed in the new factories, that are even cleaned by robots.
33
Tough, no PC reality is that the folks chanting lock her up and build a wall did those things because they lack even the basic level of education to realize they were being played for suckers.
They are left behind because they either could not or did not pay attention in school. They though that somehow they could emerge from high school with a D average and find a middle class job with benefits. Those jobs have not existed for decades, and never will again.
They are left behind because they either could not or did not pay attention in school. They though that somehow they could emerge from high school with a D average and find a middle class job with benefits. Those jobs have not existed for decades, and never will again.
1
And yet, they have kids and they vote, and we cannot deport them. Now what do we do?
1
And here's the thing too - new factories aren't just created and built overnight. I mean, its not like anyone wakes up tomorrow and- boom - new factory in town. It takes a lot of time - years in many instances. This is not even to mention that new manufacturing facilities need products that are both relevant but in demand in sufficient quantity.
My dad, Joseph Fol. an intelligent son of Spanish immigrants, could not afford college and instead apprenticed for Hyatt in Newark, NJ. He volunteered to serve in WWII despite the fact that he would have been exempt due to his key talents in the manufacturing sector. Apprenticeships are beautiful things. So is the state-supported education that my generation benefited by before drastic cutbacks in state-college funding. Do we want to develop people, to educate and train them and thus bolster the human potential of our country? Or should only the well-off and well-connect flourish?
11
I recall a chat several years ago wherein President Obama asked Apples's Steve Jobs how he could improve manufacturing employment. For his part, Jobs answered that he would hire 30,000 engineers right here in the U.S. - not Ph.d's - just fundamentally skilled supervisory plant engineers - right now. Obama replied back that the U.S did not generate that many engineers in a year. Jobs shot back "Yes, but China does."
And like this story - therein lies the crux. All one has to do is look at the turbine photo accompanying this story to know that this sort of manufacturing is out of the league - and was clearly not part of the conversation - of the folks who voted for Trump and bought his spittle about increasing manufacturing jobs.
Rosie the Riveter is a bygone era for a reason.
And like this story - therein lies the crux. All one has to do is look at the turbine photo accompanying this story to know that this sort of manufacturing is out of the league - and was clearly not part of the conversation - of the folks who voted for Trump and bought his spittle about increasing manufacturing jobs.
Rosie the Riveter is a bygone era for a reason.
213
Of course, part B of that discussion was the cost of those engineers. They are obtainable in China for a third. Jobs was always shrewd in that way.
3
did Jobs also mention that he wanted those engineers at Chinese wages too?
9
Obama was wrong, so was Jobs. According to
https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d15/tables/dt15_322.10.asp
in the 13-14 academic year 55,367 graduated with degrees in Computer and Information Sciences, 92,162 in Engineering, and another 16,807 in "Engineering Technologies."
I am nearing the end of a career as a scientist, but I received my undergraduate degree in 1972 from UCSD in Engineering -- having switched into it from Physics earlier due to the Viet Nam war, thinking I would not be able to go to graduate school, and worried that I needed a more "practical" degree with better job opportunities for someone at the Batchelor's level. I also held a commercial pilot's license and wanted to make a career in aerospace engineering.
The post-VietNam industry was in near collapse; I bounced around though 5 aerospace firms, even worked for a major civil contracting firm for 6 months -- there was no place for me in engineering. It was also abundantly clear that engineers were an abused commodity with a short shelf-life; segue into management or end up on the street.
In 1975 I threw in the towel, went back to graduate school, got a PhD (technically in Engineering but effectively in Atmospheric Physics) and have had a good life since. I present this as proof I was not dumb or unable.
You want more engineers? Treat them better. Pay them better.
https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d15/tables/dt15_322.10.asp
in the 13-14 academic year 55,367 graduated with degrees in Computer and Information Sciences, 92,162 in Engineering, and another 16,807 in "Engineering Technologies."
I am nearing the end of a career as a scientist, but I received my undergraduate degree in 1972 from UCSD in Engineering -- having switched into it from Physics earlier due to the Viet Nam war, thinking I would not be able to go to graduate school, and worried that I needed a more "practical" degree with better job opportunities for someone at the Batchelor's level. I also held a commercial pilot's license and wanted to make a career in aerospace engineering.
The post-VietNam industry was in near collapse; I bounced around though 5 aerospace firms, even worked for a major civil contracting firm for 6 months -- there was no place for me in engineering. It was also abundantly clear that engineers were an abused commodity with a short shelf-life; segue into management or end up on the street.
In 1975 I threw in the towel, went back to graduate school, got a PhD (technically in Engineering but effectively in Atmospheric Physics) and have had a good life since. I present this as proof I was not dumb or unable.
You want more engineers? Treat them better. Pay them better.
13
One issue with such specialized training is transferability. If the John Deere factory closes down, what are you going to do with all that know-how about fixing John Deere tractors? Can the skills be used in another setting?
7
YES with some retraining. but someone who is familiar with machines can move easily to other machines. examples: army/airforce aviation technicians and elevator technicians move on to be crane technicians because they understand machines, plans, circuitry, and repairs.
3
Simple move to another city with a similar factory. Tractors today are highly complex pieces of equipment - computerized with GPS tracking - a whole array of other tractor manufacturers require the same skill sets and other equipment from earth moving equipment to mining equipment now use similar technology. Plus the math and computer skills can transfer to other manufacturing sectors. There is a shortage of skilled workers for today advanced technology manufacturing.
Even automated robotic equipment need people to build, program and maintain. People need to train and learn to adapt. Over the years I have shifted across three industries from computers to construction to renewable energy and have moved and lived in six states over the past 35-years. The only constant is change - learn to evolved or be left out.
Even automated robotic equipment need people to build, program and maintain. People need to train and learn to adapt. Over the years I have shifted across three industries from computers to construction to renewable energy and have moved and lived in six states over the past 35-years. The only constant is change - learn to evolved or be left out.
Well, good question. I suppose a diesel expert or hydraulic mechanic could transfer some skill set to Cat or Ford, etc.
I found this interesting:
"IT is not uncommon to find executives in Europe who got their start in apprenticeships, which are seen as a respected path to a profession in a variety of fields, from hospitality to health care, retail to banking."
At some point in the 80s it became the thing to replace CEOs and upper management with people outside the core business experience. Usually bean counters or slice and dice predators. No loyalty or passion about the place. It was bloody for sure. This was all excused in the name of 'shareholder value'. This was a Reagan narrative, something the GOP base voters always seem to forget. The mantra of the Reagan years was 'retrain for the service sector jobs', you know, at Wal-Mart.
I found this interesting:
"IT is not uncommon to find executives in Europe who got their start in apprenticeships, which are seen as a respected path to a profession in a variety of fields, from hospitality to health care, retail to banking."
At some point in the 80s it became the thing to replace CEOs and upper management with people outside the core business experience. Usually bean counters or slice and dice predators. No loyalty or passion about the place. It was bloody for sure. This was all excused in the name of 'shareholder value'. This was a Reagan narrative, something the GOP base voters always seem to forget. The mantra of the Reagan years was 'retrain for the service sector jobs', you know, at Wal-Mart.
1
Yes Mr Trump....Make America Great Again....the path is through education. The future belongs to the educated....it's the only way up and out. It begins at the start with parents.
10
As an American who has lived and worked in Germany for almost 30 years, I can tell you the general level of vocational training here is -much- more effective than that in the USA - in fact there is no comparison.
I own and operate a small manufacturing business and as one example, there was an electrician working in my business this morning checking the electrical system. He had a young apprentice with him who was assisting and taking notes as the master electrician explained procedures and systems to him. One day the young man will be the master and either work for a company or himself. An electrician is a respected tradesman in this society and makes a good living.
When will the US wise up and emulate the German system? It works!
I own and operate a small manufacturing business and as one example, there was an electrician working in my business this morning checking the electrical system. He had a young apprentice with him who was assisting and taking notes as the master electrician explained procedures and systems to him. One day the young man will be the master and either work for a company or himself. An electrician is a respected tradesman in this society and makes a good living.
When will the US wise up and emulate the German system? It works!
142
us companies, in general, do not want the burden of these appretenship programs. end of story.
3
The thing is, the German system isn't burden, it's a giant plus for the companies involved. They have no financial downside and at the end of the contract, they can offer their former apprentice a job, knowing full well how good of an employee the person will be. Ditto for the apprentice: Do a good job and get to stay on at a salaried position in a company where you know the people.
1
OF COURSE a degree is now required. DUH
One only need look at the state of public education in the United States, where 15% (noted in the article) do not even pass a basic reading and writing test.
If I were an employer looking for qualified applicants, I would want someone that has dedicated themselves to more education and all the perseverance that takes.
Having said that, WE must overhaul the public education system ( no ~ not more charter schools ) and offer at least 2 years of higher education tuition free.
It is an investment in ourselves.
One only need look at the state of public education in the United States, where 15% (noted in the article) do not even pass a basic reading and writing test.
If I were an employer looking for qualified applicants, I would want someone that has dedicated themselves to more education and all the perseverance that takes.
Having said that, WE must overhaul the public education system ( no ~ not more charter schools ) and offer at least 2 years of higher education tuition free.
It is an investment in ourselves.
34
Look at who they pick to run the UC system and pay $500K a year to do so. A political hack.
3
Why should we "offer at least 2 years of higher education tuition free" to kids who have not done the hard work in high school?
Because throwing good money after bad has worked so well so far?
Because throwing good money after bad has worked so well so far?
So very sad. But years of republican measures designed to eliminate resources for schools, important health care for children so they can give tax breaks to the crony friends has finally borne fruit. A population that won't be hired for anything.
18
Start at the beginning. Only 25% or so of all high school students are university material, yet the emphasis has been wrongly placed on the "one size fits all, everyone should go to college" mantra. The emphasis must shift toward proper education and apprenticeships. Trades are important and if one wonders, we all need plumbers, a mechanics, and heavy equipment operators, etc., the trades that keep us running. Yes they need basic academic skills to function in our technological environment and is where the emphasis should be placed.
And to conclude, educational standards must be raised nation wide and passing must mean passing.
And to conclude, educational standards must be raised nation wide and passing must mean passing.
21
The language in the example test is strange, imprecise, and misleading. In question 2, what is "tighten the nut more easily" mean? Enough force to damage the nut and strip the bolt thread? Or just tighten easily in tight space? In question 3, the question and the answer is plainly weird. If you want the student to draw the plan view, the side view, and the front view, just say so.
5
Truc: That you would interpret 2 in that betrays your level of not only mechanical aptitude, but also lack of practical experience. No competent artisan would interpret "easily" in terms that would end up being counterproductive and make more needless work.
3
Tut, tut on the hair splitting about the wrench, but the drawing question was tricky in that you have to know the terminology, ie you took a drafting class in high school.
1
@Truc Hoang. "The strange, imprecise, and misleading language" in the example test is there for a purpose: To evaluate the applicant's ability to access, interpret, evaluate, and utilize the information given to him/her in the most efficacious way for the specific situation. There will be no one to do that for them when they are "on the job. Those requiring or desiring micromanagement need not apply.
2
Where I grew up in New England in the 1960s many of my high school classmates split their time between the high school, trade school and apprenticeships. There was a proud tradition of Tool & Die makers, millwrights, machinists and other technical skills. The people in those trades were respected for their skills. What happened to the USA? During my career I called on many manufacturing plants. During one call on a manufacturing plant in Ohio an engineer told me to look around the facility. All the skilled trades people were in their fifties or older. He stated the local community was phasing out their trades school programs as there was little interest. We had better start taking a hard look in a mirror. A lot of employment opportunities didn't get shipped off shore just for cheaper wages; a lot of young people showed little interest in working with their hands or the dedication to learn the skills needed. Rather than blowing 15 Billion on a wall we don't need or pumping billions into more excess defense spending, we need to revitalize the skills programs needed for today's jobs and create an atmosphere that encourages young people to enter those programs. Remember, we didn't beat Germany and Japan during WWII so much as out manufactured them! A strong economic base than can support our military is the best defense!
32
between automation and out sourcing manufacturing jobs are in trouble. Maybe the young see this?
My daughter studied computer science and neuroscience. My son, Japanese and product design, the theory being if you can't live on your creativity, you are going to lose out to automation. I fear even for creative jobs; since we are such herd animals, I suspect 'creativity' just means the next pet rock, an idea that a computer program could have come up with.
Two caveats are due here. For one, the low rate of youth unemployment in countries such as Switzerland or Germany with high apprenticeship participation is in part a statistical artifact. Unemployment rates apply only to individuals in the active labor force, which serves as the denominator in the calculation of unemployment rates. Unlike youth in other forms of education, those in apprenticeship programs are counted as being in the labor force due to the on-the-job character of apprenticeships, which artificially inflates the denominator. Accordingly, in countries such as Spain or Greece with very low apprenticeship participation the share of youth in the labor force is also much lower. For example, in Greece the share is 30% compared with 70% in Switzerland. Hence all else equal, countries with broad apprenticeship participation have low youth unemployment rates due solely to an oversized denominator, i.e., to statistical reasons. Secondly, the unemployment rate among adults in Switzerland with at most a completed apprenticeship is higher than that among those with a college degree. Hence, apprenticeships are good, but they're not quite the panacea that the article suggests.
4
"Persuading students and their parents to consider the apprenticeship track is a tough sell, especially because companies want students who have a strong academic background."
“These are not positions for underachievers,” said Roger Collins, who recruits apprentices for Siemens at 15 Charlotte-area high schools."
writes the article.
However, would "high achievers" settle for only making $40,000 to $50,000? Why not get one's computer science or engineering degree, make more and work like a dog in a high tech sector to make much, much more? Would this not make more sense for a "high achiever"?
Perhaps these firms need to scrape lower down into the barrel.
“These are not positions for underachievers,” said Roger Collins, who recruits apprentices for Siemens at 15 Charlotte-area high schools."
writes the article.
However, would "high achievers" settle for only making $40,000 to $50,000? Why not get one's computer science or engineering degree, make more and work like a dog in a high tech sector to make much, much more? Would this not make more sense for a "high achiever"?
Perhaps these firms need to scrape lower down into the barrel.
3
The $40-50K wage is just a start. Guys who are really good can make much more as they advance in their careers, and the cost-of-living differentials means they can live as well as the guy who makes $250K in San Francisco, but has to pay $600K for a one-bedroom apartment.
2
Very important article that should be followed up on in great depth. "College for all" is a misleading and vague idea and I agree with the Times pick professor - a lot of individuals flounder in college because the model hasn't adapted yet; shopping majors like a buffet and taking enrichment electives is not the same as preparation for life and earning a living. I also taught some classes at CUNY during the open enrollment of the late 70s: a failed experiment as many students had the heart but not the skills to pass an entry level writing course.
Every job is America is getting more skill-based. Construction work used to be raw labor; now it requires so many written and performance test based certifications that you need a second wallet. Healthcare used to be about comforting sick patients; now you need to operate highly technical equipment and know how to navigate electronic medical records (and even doctors have needed training and help for that). EMR companies had a fantastic training program during the rollout: a friend started at $9/hour learning and taking classes and now is making $100K+ as a senior trainer - but it took effort and personal diligence, and many in the program dropped out or had to be counseled out.
Yes to apprenticeships and recognizing that we are in a skill-set economy. "College for all" may not cut it.
Every job is America is getting more skill-based. Construction work used to be raw labor; now it requires so many written and performance test based certifications that you need a second wallet. Healthcare used to be about comforting sick patients; now you need to operate highly technical equipment and know how to navigate electronic medical records (and even doctors have needed training and help for that). EMR companies had a fantastic training program during the rollout: a friend started at $9/hour learning and taking classes and now is making $100K+ as a senior trainer - but it took effort and personal diligence, and many in the program dropped out or had to be counseled out.
Yes to apprenticeships and recognizing that we are in a skill-set economy. "College for all" may not cut it.
17
"nearly nine in 10 jobs that disappeared since 2000 were lost to automation in the decades-long march to an information-driven economy, not to workers in other countries."
Not True! It only appears that way because we shipped labor-intensive industries abroad, like shoe-making, and retained capital-intensive industries, like software. Our workforce was not diminished by "automation", but rather by the intentional outsourcing of industries that employed lots of people who were paid middle-class wages.
Not True! It only appears that way because we shipped labor-intensive industries abroad, like shoe-making, and retained capital-intensive industries, like software. Our workforce was not diminished by "automation", but rather by the intentional outsourcing of industries that employed lots of people who were paid middle-class wages.
12
Why would that make it appear this way? If we shipped labor intensive industries abroad, that would actually make it appear more jobs were lost to outsourcing. Your argument makes no sense.
1
If you read about what they do in the Chinese factories where they use a lot of low-skill labor, you would see that it would be impossible to pay 'middle-class wages' for these jobs in the US.
Teenage girls hand-paint plastic Santa Claus ornaments that are boxed up, shipped 6000 miles, and then sold for $1 each. There is no way this sort of work could be done in the US.
Teenage girls hand-paint plastic Santa Claus ornaments that are boxed up, shipped 6000 miles, and then sold for $1 each. There is no way this sort of work could be done in the US.
1
Siemens Energy struggled to find qualified workers when it opened a gas turbine production plant in Charlotte, N.C." reads the caption under the photo.
Maybe Siemens should built its plant where it was possible to find such a workforce!
Maybe Siemens should built its plant where it was possible to find such a workforce!
8
Well then there might be unions. Siemens chose NC. Probably with the intent of bringing in the labor from elsewhere and the was to show good faith for hiring local people.
1
Like in another country?
I agree that a better apprenticeship system would be beneficial. Is no one concerned that 85% of those 10,000 applicants couldn't pass a 9th grade test?
56
considering the poor quality of US education at the grade school and secondary levels I was surprised that percentage was not higher.
Hi Sandra from Princeton (University?)-- You'd figure people would be nicer and more supportive of High School Academic Valedictorians!! Based on that statistic you just mentioned your concern for: I suppose a large amount of the USA Population still prefers, cheers-on, and buys expensive tickets to NASCAR and The Super Bowl.
Noted!!
This is a good article, especially its emphasis on 2 years technology degrees from community colleges. Some clarification: Siemens did not "open" the Charlotte facility. They purchased it from Westinghouse. Some years later they closed a turbine facility in Canada and moved its production to Charlotte. Was this when they needed 800 positions? The facility is huge but I am skeptical about the 800 figure. Even 80 would be a large number to bring in at one time. Disclosure: I worked for the Siemens machine tool automation business group in Elk Grove Village, Illinois, for many years, and after retiring, provided consultative services for the Charlotte facility.
12
As an educator I have long advocated training and technical schools for my students. Parents really have a hard time with the concept. Technical schools or community colleges are still seen as second class. We need to change that mindset fast.
152
they are viewed as second class for a reason. College graduates, in general, make more and have better employment opportunities. Plus blue collar environments have greater dangers (where in a white collar job can you lose a limb?).
1
Any job involving field work, such as wildlife biology, mapping, or surveying, all generally college-graduate jobs.
The problem with a vocational qualification is that you are forever looked down upon by HR droids and management suits who got bachelor's degrees in elementary literature interpretation and media appreciation. Until they stop handing out degrees for showing up with a pulse and a checkbook, education will continue to be a topsy-turvy world.
31
the real problem you describe is primarily in education at the pre-university level. Hence business' negative view of the non-college educated in terms of employability.
1
Blue collar workers are looked down on by the elite - until their toilet breaks and they are presented with the bill.
Charles Murray wrote about exactly this and told us how to do it in his remarkable book, "Real Education." Highly recommended. If Betsy DeVos wants to be the greatest Secretary of Education ever, she will read and execute the policies in this great work.
I also heard these lies on Fox. Is that where you got them?
1
@Sean - He is talking about reading a book, not watching TV.
Indeed, this article and associated comments point to the continuing importance of apprenticeships. The US has not done enough to provide a dual pathway to productive employment, but I hope that begins to change.
This article should be required reading for all legislators, Democrat or Republican.
Here, again, is a lesson that can be learned from listening to other productive, industrialized nations.
Four year colleges and universities have priced themselves out of reach for many and those who do complete those degrees are saddled with debt for years unless parents help out and endanger their own retirement.
This article should be required reading for all legislators, Democrat or Republican.
Here, again, is a lesson that can be learned from listening to other productive, industrialized nations.
Four year colleges and universities have priced themselves out of reach for many and those who do complete those degrees are saddled with debt for years unless parents help out and endanger their own retirement.
3
President Obama has already said this in his "State of the Union speech" 2013
http://www.politico.com/story/2013/02/state-of-the-union-2013-president-... (Page 5 sections 6 and 7)
It seems that only a few have listened to him.
American "Global Players" as Ford Motor Company are practising this apprenticeship-system in Germany
http://www.ford-aus-und-weiterbildung.com/faw/ford-werke-koeln/do2/
for a long time and in UK
https://www.ford-apprenticeships.co.uk/
in their own "centres of learning"
http://www.ceme.co.uk/ (Just look at BoJo and the EU sign...)
because same standards are required in all of their cooperating plants. They are familiar with this system and when it comes to advanced options like "Duales studium"
http://www.ford-aus-und-weiterbildung.com/faw/ford-werke-koeln/do2/
they have been frontrunners.
http://www.politico.com/story/2013/02/state-of-the-union-2013-president-... (Page 5 sections 6 and 7)
It seems that only a few have listened to him.
American "Global Players" as Ford Motor Company are practising this apprenticeship-system in Germany
http://www.ford-aus-und-weiterbildung.com/faw/ford-werke-koeln/do2/
for a long time and in UK
https://www.ford-apprenticeships.co.uk/
in their own "centres of learning"
http://www.ceme.co.uk/ (Just look at BoJo and the EU sign...)
because same standards are required in all of their cooperating plants. They are familiar with this system and when it comes to advanced options like "Duales studium"
http://www.ford-aus-und-weiterbildung.com/faw/ford-werke-koeln/do2/
they have been frontrunners.
3
This is a really great comment. No one should have to go thousands of dollars into debt for a college degree - to be able to qualify for a manufacturing job.
3
Pretty good article, but it veers too much toward the "skills mismatch" or "skills gap" claim. Something else is going on, perhaps larger: check https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/dont-blame-a-skills-gap-for-lack-of...
Other research that fills the picture is described there.
Other research that fills the picture is described there.
1
Siemens Energy : " But fewer than 15 percent of the applicants were able to pass a reading, writing and math screening test geared toward a ninth-grade education."
Donald Trump: "I love the poorly educated".
The Republican war on public education is almost won!
Donald Trump: "I love the poorly educated".
The Republican war on public education is almost won!
20
I wonder what Betsy DeVos would say about the need for apprenticeships?
2
She would certainly call them in her ignorance "alternative ships"
1
I had a successful career as a chemical research tech, with two years of college and much OJT. But now I couldn't be invited for an interview without a BS. I learned how to operate an Electron Microscope that was as big as my bathroom, but in todays market, computer skills along with scientific training are required for the most rudimentary jobs
6
Would they be willing to train older workers? If not, this is discriminatory.
12
The apprenticeship approach is a total win-win for everyone. People get trained and are employable, companies get the workers they need, Education costs are shared by the student, company, and government. This is the system we have in Switzerland and it has been and continues to be an excellent approach and should be introduced in the US. In Switzerland and Germany, apprenticeships begin at age 16. After the apprenticeship you are certified in your profession such as mechatronic, graphics designer, machinist, health care professional, retailer....
There is an endless assortment of possible apprenticeships available here at all different levels of ability. Potential apprentices get to try out for a few days at different companies or institutions to see if they like it.
There is an endless assortment of possible apprenticeships available here at all different levels of ability. Potential apprentices get to try out for a few days at different companies or institutions to see if they like it.
99
apprenticeship programs require money and effort from business and are usually done in tandem with unions. Hence do not expect these to take off anytime soon in the US.
2
...and once they are done with their three to four year apprenticeships, with certificates in their hand, they again can either opt for an advandecd masters in their profession, to be able to teach new apprentices, or continue at any of the free universities to add an academic edge to the trained profession.
This way they do stay on top of the development and even develop and process the profession further themselves. It is not just the "job" itself, but also a constant reviewing and improving of tools needed to do a specific job.
Hence it is not necessary to decry the "automatisation,"- they just did not fall out of the sky one day..... thea are also part of the development to improve the work itself. These machines were a collaborative effort again of engineers and higly skilled workers who build those.
Nobody needs "wrenchers" anymore, who just walk like cattle to a car plant everyday for thirty years to turn the same bolt 180 degrees for an eight hour shift. Those jobs will never come back, and one should actually be grateful for that. It is just too bad that exactly these people bought into the lies of this imbecile.
This way they do stay on top of the development and even develop and process the profession further themselves. It is not just the "job" itself, but also a constant reviewing and improving of tools needed to do a specific job.
Hence it is not necessary to decry the "automatisation,"- they just did not fall out of the sky one day..... thea are also part of the development to improve the work itself. These machines were a collaborative effort again of engineers and higly skilled workers who build those.
Nobody needs "wrenchers" anymore, who just walk like cattle to a car plant everyday for thirty years to turn the same bolt 180 degrees for an eight hour shift. Those jobs will never come back, and one should actually be grateful for that. It is just too bad that exactly these people bought into the lies of this imbecile.
3
Businesses in America have no interest in training their employees. They expect us to "hit the ground running" thus sparing them the expense, time, and effort of training. Then, when the new hire leaves, or is fired because he can't do the job companies use this to justify looking outside the country for a new employee. Most American companies prefer to fire employees no matter how long they've worked for them because it's cheaper to get rid of a long term employee and hire a younger, less experienced individual.
Ask any American over the age 40 who has lost a job what it was like trying to find a new one. Ask any American who wants to improve his/her life or upgrade his/her skills if their employer was interested in helping. For most the answer is no. Why? Because it doesn't benefit the employer. American companies view employees as slaves to be discarded rather than retrained, treated with dignity, or like intelligent beings. In fact our country views all citizens as expendable and worthless unless they are rich or corporations. We're only useful when we spend money not when we cost money.
Ask any American over the age 40 who has lost a job what it was like trying to find a new one. Ask any American who wants to improve his/her life or upgrade his/her skills if their employer was interested in helping. For most the answer is no. Why? Because it doesn't benefit the employer. American companies view employees as slaves to be discarded rather than retrained, treated with dignity, or like intelligent beings. In fact our country views all citizens as expendable and worthless unless they are rich or corporations. We're only useful when we spend money not when we cost money.
1
Since the late 1960s, America has imported high quality talent in science and engineering. In the same period, we've had an oversupply of college graduates with degrees that produce questionable value. See size of college debt and default for evidence.
Were policy makers asleep? Plain unable to predict that the talent pool at the top will be awesome (as it is). That kids with feel good degrees will hollow out the middle class? If we had kids with the right degrees, and firms had the right smarts, factories would have never left; they would have adapted, innovated, automated, computerized, trained people. Since the 1960s. With declining cost of data processing, we would have been ahead of the curve.
But industry cannot outpace cultural smugness of the middle class, nor the short term perspectives of the working class. And look what we have: the top 1% owns everything, the middle class is declining, and the bottom half is in economic and moral straits and sociocultural decline.
I am all for apprentice programs - but guided by analysis and measured steps. Not influenced by anecdotes of John Deere. Because apprentice programs take us toward a German sensibility (where Walmart failed, and nothing close to an Apple or Google emerged) and not an American ideal (where Walmart rules, and people take moon shots). Apprentice programs need definition in the current sociocultural context, and targeted toward those that will benefit.
Were policy makers asleep? Plain unable to predict that the talent pool at the top will be awesome (as it is). That kids with feel good degrees will hollow out the middle class? If we had kids with the right degrees, and firms had the right smarts, factories would have never left; they would have adapted, innovated, automated, computerized, trained people. Since the 1960s. With declining cost of data processing, we would have been ahead of the curve.
But industry cannot outpace cultural smugness of the middle class, nor the short term perspectives of the working class. And look what we have: the top 1% owns everything, the middle class is declining, and the bottom half is in economic and moral straits and sociocultural decline.
I am all for apprentice programs - but guided by analysis and measured steps. Not influenced by anecdotes of John Deere. Because apprentice programs take us toward a German sensibility (where Walmart failed, and nothing close to an Apple or Google emerged) and not an American ideal (where Walmart rules, and people take moon shots). Apprentice programs need definition in the current sociocultural context, and targeted toward those that will benefit.
6
If we had kids with the right degrees, and firms had the right smarts, factories would have never left; they would have adapted, innovated, automated, computerized, trained people.
I have a news flash for you, about a fifth of STEM graduates cannot even find work in their fields.
I have a news flash for you, about a fifth of STEM graduates cannot even find work in their fields.
2
Instead of unrealistic pleas of "Free College Tuition", why not make the first two years of community college free? That would give students time to figure out what they want to do and possible go down the trade-school route. Of course, there is one opponent to this idea: traditional 4-year universities, who have been leading unqualified students into debt for decades.
10
> Instead of unrealistic pleas of "Free College Tuition", > why not make the first two years of community college free?
Leftist political propaganda is more effective in four-year universities.
Leftist political propaganda is more effective in four-year universities.
2
Why not teach students what they need to know in high school? Then they won't need to go to community college. If we pushed hard, we could improve K-12 education so that high school graduates would know more than the so-called 'college graduates' we have today.
1
I think you nailed it. Its hard to teach students how bad America is, in a welding class.
1
I see a new Executive Order coming: No Job will require a college degree or any form of training ---that's how you make America Great Again.
6
Blindly going from high school to college with no career path in mind is proving to be a tragic mistake. Too many young adults are graduating from 4 year colleges with a mountain of debt and no prospect of a good job to pay it off.
Well designed Community College and apprenticeship programs fill an important role serving both students and industry and keeping America competitive in a world where deploying complex technology is the key to economic survival.
Well designed Community College and apprenticeship programs fill an important role serving both students and industry and keeping America competitive in a world where deploying complex technology is the key to economic survival.
5
As a former small manufacturer I'm all for programs that lead to developing manufacturing skills. We always had to work hard to recruit skilled machinists as there always (even in bad economic times) were to few people who could think and do at the same time. The college elite forgot that many shop floor positions are in effect practical engineering and that skilled workers like patternmakers, machinists, assemblers and drafters often complete the work of turining an idea into an actuall product.
Often though, young people at the age of 18/19 are not emotionally equipped to make the commitment to diciplined self development; it is something that they are ready for in their early to mid twenties. Programs should also be directed to helping them make the transition when the are a little older and far more mature. American workers are by statistical measurement the most productive in the world, but we don't generally make it easy for them to get there.
Often though, young people at the age of 18/19 are not emotionally equipped to make the commitment to diciplined self development; it is something that they are ready for in their early to mid twenties. Programs should also be directed to helping them make the transition when the are a little older and far more mature. American workers are by statistical measurement the most productive in the world, but we don't generally make it easy for them to get there.
11
The college elite forgot that many shop floor positions are in effect practical engineering and that skilled workers like patternmakers, machinists, assemblers and drafters often complete the work of turning an idea into an actuall product.
the college elite were actually thinking of how to make 6 digit salaries, not $15 an hr.
the college elite were actually thinking of how to make 6 digit salaries, not $15 an hr.
1
I am a 60+ year old combustion turbine technician and can tell you that in our industry it is nearly impossible to find "kids" who have the work ethic we need.... 12 hour rotating shifts do not make for a life that allows much time for socializing. We recently had to teach an apprentice how to operate a shovel( I guess he never had to because his parents never made him even do household chores) We will be losing over two hundred years worth of experienced hands in the next five years and that's just at one small power plant in the northwest. Everyone better hope that someone figures out how to make a smartphone make and deliver electricity because if not the winters without heat are going to be really uncomfortable. Teach your children to read a blueprint and how to weld and they'll make a decent living..... Teach them how to program and calibrate valves,flow meters, level transmitters and they won't ever have to look for a job the jobs will look for them!
69
JD, you hit the nail on the head with your comment. I have a son who works for Siemens and he started at the bottom. Through their apprenticeship program he has steadily risen in the ranks to a senior technician. Siemens continues to send him to training upgrading his skills. The company I worked for (not mentioned) didn't bother to do that. Instead they go through round and round of layoffs and then attempt to hire in people with the skills they need. Morale at my previous company is so bad that I couldn't even find a word to describe it.
4
Flooding the country with poorly educated legal and illegal immigrants, refugees/asylees, etc. is not going to improve this situation.
3
Countered by all the immigrants who have educations, who held skilled jobs from technology to medicine, but are only able to find jobs in the US driving taxis, working at fast food places, and convenience stores because of the type of prejudice exhibited in Marigrow's comment.
8
Only 15% of the applicants could read/write and preform math at a 9th grade level? Keep in mind that the applicants were motivated enough to apply for a job for which they knew they would be tested. What does this say about NC Educational attainment?
7
It says a lot about that portion of the student body not going to college.
No one is addressing the real issue our technical system has increased where less and less people are needed to build a widget of any kind, so what do we do with the excess population since we can produce we need less and less people in the manufacturing and design workforce. . That is the question unless we want to keep a caste of poor and and unemployed people which Im sure some folks are fine with. Everyone needs to be a stakeholder in society . What is the answer. I went to college and served a trade apprenticeship and that is what I'm seeing having been in the workforce for 40 years.
1
I teach at a community college that has community service-oriented learning. It meshes exactly towards a college-vocational partnership which promises to be fruitful.
It's always been unsettling listening to people bemoan the loss of jobs because their families have been doing the same work for 300 years. Times change for all of us. Learning something new. I'm old enough to remember the high school vocational tracks. We need them back.
Each semester I'm faced with students who parrot their alleged desire to be surgeons, engineers, veterinarians-the same students who enter college requiring remedial courses in reading and math, often the same students who believe they can argue their way to their desired grades rather than do the work of reading. Professions that require years of training are not for everyone. Put them on a realistic track where focused learning and goal achievement is possible.
It's always been unsettling listening to people bemoan the loss of jobs because their families have been doing the same work for 300 years. Times change for all of us. Learning something new. I'm old enough to remember the high school vocational tracks. We need them back.
Each semester I'm faced with students who parrot their alleged desire to be surgeons, engineers, veterinarians-the same students who enter college requiring remedial courses in reading and math, often the same students who believe they can argue their way to their desired grades rather than do the work of reading. Professions that require years of training are not for everyone. Put them on a realistic track where focused learning and goal achievement is possible.
19
Id like to apologize to our VETS,active military families, poor, homeless and starving. I am ashamed that Americans will raise money to support Non-Americans for a TEMPORARY situation and unlike them yours has not been temporary. I can't believe we can dump millions into sanctuary cities and forget about the inner city children, homeless, Vets....those who are protesting and Celebs alike need to take a step back and remember our President said TEMPORARY ban to enforce our laws and maybe they can focus on raising money for those who fought to keep us safe. Secondly, I work at General Motors and there are plenty of smart and talented people without degrees that's called the working mans PHd.
3
As a Vocational (or Career & Tech) High School teacher I was discouraged by the push from Guidance for students to give up their vocational classes in order to have enough academics to attend a four year college. Two year colleges and a good vocational high school background can prepare students for careers in a variety of fields, from Early Childhood to Med Tech, Automotive, Computer Science, and Building Trades. And, in Massachusetts many of the vocational high school students outperform their peers on statewide tests like the MCAS. I'm not sure the Trump Administration and our Education Secretary, Betsy DeVos, know enough about education to have a positive impact on the directions of school and curriculum.
4
FINALLY!! The media covers the REAL problem. Not only do high school grads and dropouts not qualify for these jobs, the training programs I work with for machinists and tool and die makers can't find enough applicants for the openings they have because they can't pass a pee test.
Trump voters, with their anti-intellectualism and no skills, are the debris of the latest advance of the Industrial Revolution. And just like every other debris wake of the past 300 years, they are complaining about it. This one bit us due to the Dems hubris, but it will pass.
Trump voters, with their anti-intellectualism and no skills, are the debris of the latest advance of the Industrial Revolution. And just like every other debris wake of the past 300 years, they are complaining about it. This one bit us due to the Dems hubris, but it will pass.
18
Agreed, although unless and until there is actual evidence of impairment or danger to co-workers, there shouldn't ever be a pee test.
If my workers can get the job safely done on weed, crack, or shrooms, I'd admire them all the more!
If my workers can get the job safely done on weed, crack, or shrooms, I'd admire them all the more!
Let's not forget that sometime around the eighties schools quit teaching industrial arts due to lawsuits or the threat of them in case there was an accident teaching a kid how to use a saw or a hammer. I mean God forbid little tommy busted a knuckle because he used the open end instead of the box
3
"But fewer than 15 percent of the applicants were able to pass a reading, writing and math screening test geared toward a ninth-grade education." If you are a high-school graduate, shouldn't you have a 12th-grade education? Apparently not.
Let's look at college graduates. According to a Department of Education study in 2004, about 3% of 'college graduates' are functionally illiterate, and another 20% read at the 5th-grade level. So what should we do? We need to raise standards across the board. Those who don't know anything should be told they are way behind, and if they don't start studying they'll face a lifetime of unemployment and no money.
Let's look at college graduates. According to a Department of Education study in 2004, about 3% of 'college graduates' are functionally illiterate, and another 20% read at the 5th-grade level. So what should we do? We need to raise standards across the board. Those who don't know anything should be told they are way behind, and if they don't start studying they'll face a lifetime of unemployment and no money.
46
So what should we do?
Stop pretending those students are college material, for one. They are not and never will be.
All that happens is money and talent is wasted, as they might be a great electrician or plumber or auto mechanic, all of whom make a good living, much better than a student with a PhD in 19th Century French Poetry.
Stop pretending those students are college material, for one. They are not and never will be.
All that happens is money and talent is wasted, as they might be a great electrician or plumber or auto mechanic, all of whom make a good living, much better than a student with a PhD in 19th Century French Poetry.
1
No debt and a virtually guaranteed job upon graduation? What more could a young adult ask for? College is not for everyone and should not be pushed on less-academically inclined students. Apprenticeships are the way to go and there's absolutely no shame in doing skilled labor.
118
The point of this article is that an apprenticeship is not dead ended. You can work and continue to educate yourself to the degree you desire and it will take you as high as the Peter Principal allows, without your going into massive debt. This is a great idea, and Obama made a nice start. Will it be continued? Who knows, but it is probably too late for the older people (male and female) seeking repetitive manufactuting jobs. Sorry, those are jobs for robots.
4
College is not for everyone and should not be pushed on less-academically inclined students.
the problem though is that these jobs at Siemens demand the skill sets that those that can go to computer science and engineering programs usually have. And hence they need to be pulled off from that direction. Not easy.
the problem though is that these jobs at Siemens demand the skill sets that those that can go to computer science and engineering programs usually have. And hence they need to be pulled off from that direction. Not easy.
4
Interesting article. Did Siemens do any research into the education level of the state. In 2010-2011 time frame, North Carolina was in the bottom third of US education rankings. The area has had a history of textile mills and agriculture. Backgrounds that don't transfer well to a turbine plant. A low wage base and tax incentives were probably the main reason of locating this plant there. I've been in manufacturing pretty much my whole adult life and I find it hard to believe that they are paying 50K a year in that area of the country.
65
Well, if 15% of the 10,000 passed, they still have 1500 decent candidates for the 800 positions. They probably knew what they'd get, and if they can staff the place they don't care about the other 85%.
5
Same idea that Mercedes has when moving to 'right-to work Alabama'
7
they probably are not. That is one of the reasons they decided to move to this low wage part of the country to begin with.
4
Public education in this country is a disgrace. As the average reading level now approaches Fifth Grade, Siemens was never going to fill those 800 positions in Charlotte or any other large metro area. Siemens could have gone native and dummied down the test or filled positions based on race and gender. Public education in this country is predicated on these propositions: 1. Every student has a human right to remain ignorant. 2. Students must not be made uncomfortable by knowing the boy or girl sitting next to them is smarter or more capable. 3. Public school education is an ongoing experiment in social engineering. Net results are growing racial and economic inequalities and a restive citizenry frustrated because their "education" is not sufficient to qualify them for gainful and satisfying employment. Foreign manufacturers will remain reluctant to invest in this country when the cost of manufacturing must include basic education of the workforce and if you don't believe this, talk to the economic development people in your state.
28
At those wages they can fill the jobs easily. For $50-60K, recent college graduates will move to Charlotte if necessary.
Their hiring methods are rather anachronistic. In order avoid being sued for racial discrimination, most companies don't give test any more, but require a credential to apply. This cuts off people who have the ability but don't have the credential. But if you open these jobs up to the whole world, and let everybody take the test, you're going to get a lot of people who don't know anything come in and give it a shot. Many of them don't realize how poorly educated they are, having 'graduated' from high school and college.
Their hiring methods are rather anachronistic. In order avoid being sued for racial discrimination, most companies don't give test any more, but require a credential to apply. This cuts off people who have the ability but don't have the credential. But if you open these jobs up to the whole world, and let everybody take the test, you're going to get a lot of people who don't know anything come in and give it a shot. Many of them don't realize how poorly educated they are, having 'graduated' from high school and college.
4
Or just stop supporting Charlotte's corporate-welfare "charter" schools, which—far from helping public schools improve, as ostensibly intended—leech crucial, already-short tax money that they desperately need for good teachers, buildings, instruments, and tools.
They are a ticket—or perhaps, "voucher"—to academic and economic disaster.
They are a ticket—or perhaps, "voucher"—to academic and economic disaster.
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And why do you think public education in this country is to terrible? Could it be 30 years of stripping local, state and federal funding from the Right? It's a classic M.O.: "strip, strip, strip...SEE, IT'S BROKEN, TOLD YOU SO!" No Child Left Behind certainly didn't help: teach students to gorge on facts, regurgitate for a standardized test, flush, repeat. I see the fruits of that asinine policy in my college classrooms every day.
I graduated from a public high school in a town of 20,000 in the middle of nowhere in Ohio. I went on to attend two top-tier colleges. The year before I began high school, we had Russian and Japanese foreign language classes via satellite! Amazingly innovative for such a small school system. But alas: that, like so many other things, was cut due to budget shortfalls.
My high school education wasn't terrible. We didn't have IB, but we had the usual AP offerings. We also had ZERO computer education, so I was definitely left catching up with my peers and their elite coastal private educations. But I survived and, ultimately, thrived.
I graduated from a public high school in a town of 20,000 in the middle of nowhere in Ohio. I went on to attend two top-tier colleges. The year before I began high school, we had Russian and Japanese foreign language classes via satellite! Amazingly innovative for such a small school system. But alas: that, like so many other things, was cut due to budget shortfalls.
My high school education wasn't terrible. We didn't have IB, but we had the usual AP offerings. We also had ZERO computer education, so I was definitely left catching up with my peers and their elite coastal private educations. But I survived and, ultimately, thrived.
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Siemens has an international reputation as a top notch employer. Anyone who nabs a coveted job with this company can look forward to many years of employment and continual learning opportunities. As the article states, these are the jobs of the future: forward looking, innovative, intellectually challenging. Digging in the dirt for coal using only one's hands, these types of exclusively physical jobs are simply not on the horizon for the most part.
Those who voted to put trump into office so he could return to them their archaic jobs are simply working from an anachronistic paradigm. Rather than look to themselves for their failures to get with the times, they take their misplaced rage and place it onto others: Mexicans, Democrats, and 'elites,' those who dare to educate themselves, the nerve! Perhaps they'll never wake up to their own failings--their defense mechanisms are too strongly constructed, but their lot will not change. Rather than change with a changing world, they demand change stops her rapid stride into the future. It is they, ultimately, who will finally be left behind, and not the forward march of progress demanded by technology.
Those who voted to put trump into office so he could return to them their archaic jobs are simply working from an anachronistic paradigm. Rather than look to themselves for their failures to get with the times, they take their misplaced rage and place it onto others: Mexicans, Democrats, and 'elites,' those who dare to educate themselves, the nerve! Perhaps they'll never wake up to their own failings--their defense mechanisms are too strongly constructed, but their lot will not change. Rather than change with a changing world, they demand change stops her rapid stride into the future. It is they, ultimately, who will finally be left behind, and not the forward march of progress demanded by technology.
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They are already left behind. In the dust, in my rear-view mirror.
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So, after 70 some-odd years the US educational system is finally waking up to something the rest of the developed world has recognized since the end of the Second World War: businesses have to invest not just in infrastructure, but work force too. Maybe I'll live to see a first world health care system in this country yet.
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Perhaps a business person in charge of the Dept. of Education would not be such a bad idea?
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A business person in the DOE is a terrible idea. Why would you think the tenets of business would be useful in a foundational education?
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Just so that we are all clear. High School (HS) education is complete at 12th grade. The exam tests at the 9th grade level, roughly at the Junior High School level. IF the company requires that the applicant has more than a HS degree, then why is the admissions test only at the 9th grade level?? There is something inherently off about this.
Have not yet checked the research on this but I would also entertain the notion that information literacy skills, which includes computer skills, is something that our millennial and younger adults have and can navigate with ease. The K-12 educators might want to weigh in on this.
Have not yet checked the research on this but I would also entertain the notion that information literacy skills, which includes computer skills, is something that our millennial and younger adults have and can navigate with ease. The K-12 educators might want to weigh in on this.
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Most younger adults know nothing about computers - it's all magic to them. It takes an old hand like me to log onto the Unix box and type in strings of gibberish on the command line.
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the article said 85% of the applicants couldn't pass a junior high test! supposedly with a HS diploma. it says our future working class is ill prepared.
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It would be helpful to know what "9th grade literacy" really means. And how many high school graduates are at that level. I'm not sure that students coming out of poorer communities with poorly resourced schools would easily meet these standards. Inequality in education has lifelong consequences, of course.
The Germans promote and train workers, for free; it makes economic sense. In America, working class people are tossed in trash, or work for minimum wage, the new Plantation.
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@The Leveller - You are correct about the Germans training and promoting workers. Whenever a company goes out of business in Germany, the workers are trained for new jobs in other businesses. It is their form of "unemployment benefits". And there is no welfare in Germany - everyone works and pays their own way.
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Actually Leveller, your great point is slightly incorrect, the gist is on the $$$ compared to us.
It's not free, they tax at a higher rate just for things like this and though their tuition for Higher Learner is 0-very little, again they have higher taxes.
But they do "train" their non Higher Learning pupils for vocational (type) careers.
But we have VOTECH here also, just not as organized(?) seemingly.
I do know an actual Solution won't be cheap and I'm all for finding one.
It's not free, they tax at a higher rate just for things like this and though their tuition for Higher Learner is 0-very little, again they have higher taxes.
But they do "train" their non Higher Learning pupils for vocational (type) careers.
But we have VOTECH here also, just not as organized(?) seemingly.
I do know an actual Solution won't be cheap and I'm all for finding one.
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> It's not free, they tax at a higher rate
Thus decreasing market coordination between investment and potential profit.
Thus decreasing market coordination between investment and potential profit.
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It is so much easier to blame: blame Mexico, blame China stir fear of Muslims. Why bother educating. Hey Republicans, how about really protecting the US and making sure our citizens have a decent college education!
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@Kath - Why not demand the Democrats also make sure the citizens have a decent basic education? Not everyone is college-material. But thanks to the failed educational policies of the Democrats over the past several decades, the children in this country are among the most ignorant in basic skills (reading, writing, math) in the entire world.
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No, Trump "loves the poorly educated"; he won 57% of the vote of high school or <. So, no, there's no incentive for the Repubs to educate.
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Don't blame Democrats for poor education in this country. Half the blame goes to Republicans. This is a bipartisan issue and caused by both sides. Stop blaming "the other guy" and start seeing the world holistically.
The problem was caused by everyone and needs everyone to fix it.
The problem was caused by everyone and needs everyone to fix it.
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Germany has the berufsschule (vocational school) system. After the German equivalent of high school, a student can choose to attend a berufsschule that combines instruction and apprenticeship in a vocation. Upon completion, a graduate can easily find a job a start a career in any number of industries. Germany has had these schools for decades and they are highly successful. It's about time we establish such a system in the U.S.
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Exactly. Not every kid belongs in a regular college.
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Nothing to do with POTUS Trump (personally) but it's impossible to bring back the (Manufacturing) Jobs that left and if they did, they won't be paying US Manufacturing Wages (I'll leave it to you to decide a fair wage, I'm using $15, though I believe it would be higher).
Seriously, why would a job that's paying $4.00 an hour overseas or in Mexico,..come back to the US to pay a US Worker $15.00 an hour?
There just ain't enough (feasible) laws, tax breaks, tariffs,..to make up the difference.
Oh along with that $15 an hour, more vacation, sick days, less hours, and more $$s for overtime.
BTW, what companies or jobs overseas his companies are affiliated are headed back here,..to pay higher wages? I'm pretty sure he has Rich Friends similar, what about them?
Because we (workers) were on the high-end as it pertained to wages/benefits,..of course we were going to be the ones to get the brunt upon evolution.
Those trade agreements only worked to ensure we'd get something in return, which we did.
We have Foreign Car Companies making cars right here, as an example.
And I never thought that would happen.
Seriously, why would a job that's paying $4.00 an hour overseas or in Mexico,..come back to the US to pay a US Worker $15.00 an hour?
There just ain't enough (feasible) laws, tax breaks, tariffs,..to make up the difference.
Oh along with that $15 an hour, more vacation, sick days, less hours, and more $$s for overtime.
BTW, what companies or jobs overseas his companies are affiliated are headed back here,..to pay higher wages? I'm pretty sure he has Rich Friends similar, what about them?
Because we (workers) were on the high-end as it pertained to wages/benefits,..of course we were going to be the ones to get the brunt upon evolution.
Those trade agreements only worked to ensure we'd get something in return, which we did.
We have Foreign Car Companies making cars right here, as an example.
And I never thought that would happen.
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The company would also have to pay for healthcare in the US, where it's already covered most everywhere else in the world.
2
The note that in Europe many executives started in apprenticeship programs isn't surprising. Somewhere along the way in the U.S. the MBA, a management specialist became the standard. Knowing the business was less important than knowing business generally. That difference shows, especially in our manufacturing sector.
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Lee Iacoca, head of Chrysler, started on the floor and in the apprentice program of his company to the chairman. Now one needs an MBA from an Ivy League business school to be considered for the same position.
Lee Iacocca is NOT a good example of someone who rose from an apprentice program to chairman.
Lee Iacocca didn't start "on the floor" at Ford (he moved to Chrysler later in his career), until after he had earned a bachelor's degree in industrial engineering from Lehigh and an M.S. in mechanical engineering from Princeton... and his first job "on the floor" was as an engineer - a job that has always required more than an apprenticeship.
Lee Iacocca didn't start "on the floor" at Ford (he moved to Chrysler later in his career), until after he had earned a bachelor's degree in industrial engineering from Lehigh and an M.S. in mechanical engineering from Princeton... and his first job "on the floor" was as an engineer - a job that has always required more than an apprenticeship.
5
I saw a report bemoaning the high rate of "black" youth unemployment and the later that same day I saw a "black" guy walking down the street with his rear end sticking out, showing his underwear to the world.
I talk to people about this and all I get are excuses..."it's all they know from their community" "they have no role models" "it's the legacy of slavery"...but no one wants to acknowledge what's going on in the real world. Job readiness goes far beyond pulling up one's pants, knowing how to dress like an adult, but it is an easy indicator for an employer to use to shorten the list of candidates.
[[“These are not positions for underachievers,” said Roger Collins, who recruits apprentices for Siemens at 15 Charlotte-area high schools.]]
Amen.
I talk to people about this and all I get are excuses..."it's all they know from their community" "they have no role models" "it's the legacy of slavery"...but no one wants to acknowledge what's going on in the real world. Job readiness goes far beyond pulling up one's pants, knowing how to dress like an adult, but it is an easy indicator for an employer to use to shorten the list of candidates.
[[“These are not positions for underachievers,” said Roger Collins, who recruits apprentices for Siemens at 15 Charlotte-area high schools.]]
Amen.
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For the jobs available to the unskilled, employers will prefer illegal immigrants from Mexico every time. They show up and do the work!
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I agree- but to finish high school with the abilities of a 9th grader is hardly an high achiever.
I've never understood people's obsessions with the clothes that others wear. So the man you saw wore an ugly outfit in public (out of fashion, too--I see many more young men of all races moving to the side of skinny pants lately). So what?
I'd rather see men wearing boxers that cover the appropriate parts than men who wear shirts that are too short in the back, revealing their rear ends! Visible underwear isn't great, but at least nothing private is being shown. (The same goes for women!)
I'd rather see men wearing boxers that cover the appropriate parts than men who wear shirts that are too short in the back, revealing their rear ends! Visible underwear isn't great, but at least nothing private is being shown. (The same goes for women!)
3
This article, to me, was not about apprenticeship, but instead how we need to be vigilant in our schools from kindergarten on. Education, a rigorous, multi-layered discipline, is as necessary as ever. As a middle school teacher in the Bronx, I am a witness and facilitator to the tangible effects of young, learned minds. But, yet, my (black and brown) students tell me that they are called Oreo's (still?) when they succeed and speak crisply. I am considering buying stock in a lumber company considering how many pencils and notebooks I have to buy because my students come to class empty-handed; it's not a money issue--their haircuts are sharp and their sneakers are designer. When I was teaching in Korea, however, pencil cases were seen as bragworthy and notebooks were currency. With only 15% of adults being able to pass a 9th grade test, we cannot afford to be complacent.
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Asian and inner city US attitudes towards education are dialectically different. This needs to be changed.
2
"....it's not a money issue--their haircuts are sharp and their sneakers are designer".....what does that say about what they value??
5
Yes, yes, yes! As a community college professor, I agree with every word in this article. We need more industry-school partnerships. When students have a clear idea of where they are headed, they do much better in school. There are two things I'd like to add. First, it's time to stop telling high school student to "follow your dream." Most teenagers haven't lived enough to HAVE a dream. The 18-year-old boys in my classes dream about three things: sports, video games, and sex (not necessarily in that order). Even they know that there are no careers in sex, but far too many believe a degree in Exercise Science is going to get them a job as a trainer with the Jets. Instead, they end up with a $10/hour job as a front desk clerk at Planet Fitness. Or they think they will become video game designers, without realizing the high-level computer science skills that job requires. Nor do they realize that designing a successful new game is as high-risk as launching an indie movie.
Also not covered here is the "third rail" no one wants to mention: some people aren't smart. I'm not talking about poorly educated, or under-motivated, or lacking opportunity. I'm talking about people without the intellectual capacity to learn material above a sixth-grade level. These people used to dig coal and lay railroad track or work in non-automated factories. What will we do with them in the information economy? I really don't have an answer to that one, but we do need a plan.
Also not covered here is the "third rail" no one wants to mention: some people aren't smart. I'm not talking about poorly educated, or under-motivated, or lacking opportunity. I'm talking about people without the intellectual capacity to learn material above a sixth-grade level. These people used to dig coal and lay railroad track or work in non-automated factories. What will we do with them in the information economy? I really don't have an answer to that one, but we do need a plan.
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We probably could have seen a lot of this coming when fast food companies had to start putting pictures of menu items on the register.
True story, I was hungry and went to McDonalds for a salad. I asked the kid behind the register what was in the Southwestern salad.
He said, "Ummmm, I'm not really sure what's in it but it costs $5.39."
I stared at him for a few seconds and said "Why would I care about the price if I don't know what I'm paying for?"
And then I left.
True story, I was hungry and went to McDonalds for a salad. I asked the kid behind the register what was in the Southwestern salad.
He said, "Ummmm, I'm not really sure what's in it but it costs $5.39."
I stared at him for a few seconds and said "Why would I care about the price if I don't know what I'm paying for?"
And then I left.
3
Third rail?-- people with low intellectual capacity? Oh, you mean many if not most if not ALL of the poor souls who voted for Trump. Well don't worry, he's going to take care of them. We know this because he said so and he always keeps his word. Except when he's lying, which he has done every day since he ran for the Presidency and every day since he's been inaugurated. Plus he always know how to make things work, like the immigration ban that has created nationwide chaos in the space of only 48 hours.
3
Parents and guidance counselors are failing these kids. You would think a guidance counselor who is talking to a kid about his or her future would let them know that he or she would need a computer science degree to design video games.
Also, there is no way I would allow my child to take out a student loan worth tens of thousands of dollars without thoroughly research his or her major and the job opportunities that are available using that degree.
Also, there is no way I would allow my child to take out a student loan worth tens of thousands of dollars without thoroughly research his or her major and the job opportunities that are available using that degree.
The importance of this article cannot be underestimated. The low skilled factory jobs that Trump wants to bring back can't come back because they no longer exist. They are gone forever. Factories are now highly automated, staffed with a few skilled operators.
In the old days, a machinist was one of the most skilled labor jobs. Now, the machinist programs a computer that cuts the metal.
For example, my little business buys fabricated parts. I just ordered a CNC router machine for $4500 that will allow me to make many of the parts I currently buy. I will program and operate it myself. In doing so, I will no longer buy parts from several suppliers and keep the profit for myself. I will also be able to bring new products and services to market.
My personal productivity just skyrocketed. This is what is happening at large factories. Worker productivity is skyrocketing because of technology. Jobs are much fewer in number and much more skilled in nature.
We need massive investments in industrial arts, and vocational technical training. We need to learn how to use tools. We need to be able to program and use CAD software. We need to be able to calculate and figure.
Trump cannot force industry to hire the unskilled of small town America. The plants of yesteryear belong to the past. The people that voted for him will be sorely disappointed.
In the old days, a machinist was one of the most skilled labor jobs. Now, the machinist programs a computer that cuts the metal.
For example, my little business buys fabricated parts. I just ordered a CNC router machine for $4500 that will allow me to make many of the parts I currently buy. I will program and operate it myself. In doing so, I will no longer buy parts from several suppliers and keep the profit for myself. I will also be able to bring new products and services to market.
My personal productivity just skyrocketed. This is what is happening at large factories. Worker productivity is skyrocketing because of technology. Jobs are much fewer in number and much more skilled in nature.
We need massive investments in industrial arts, and vocational technical training. We need to learn how to use tools. We need to be able to program and use CAD software. We need to be able to calculate and figure.
Trump cannot force industry to hire the unskilled of small town America. The plants of yesteryear belong to the past. The people that voted for him will be sorely disappointed.
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"underestimated" is a solecism, in this case.
2
Polling shows that more Trump supporters have college degrees than those who voted for Hillary. Many of them are quite skilled and literate, since they graduated from high school many years ago, when you still had to know something to graduate.
3
[[Bruce Rozenblit Kansas City, MO
The importance of this article cannot be underestimated.]]
...you mean the importance cannot be overstated.
The importance of this article cannot be underestimated.]]
...you mean the importance cannot be overstated.
2