Now we are worried about the mental health of terrorists ONLY in America and NYT nutty world of non -reality. According to this false logic Hitler if captured alive should have given a shrink.
2
I am deeply ashamed for my country. We are the the most powerful nation on the planet. And there is little or no profit morally or militarily gained from treating these people worse than feces. We all remember pictures of these prisoners in orange hoods, standing on boxes, hooked up to wires. Stripping them naked. Assaulting them in the worst way. Not even a dog would be treated like that. Now we have a president who wants to expand torture and make it much, much worse. The president wants to kill the families of these prisoners. Have we no sense of decency? God Help Us.
8
So, as Robert D. Hare has long advised, there really is a psychopathic mind-set which rises to dominate and thrive within suitable bureaucracies.
1
Yes, and it will be so easy for Donald Trump to hijack the CIA so it resumes torture. It is one of the most easiest things in the world to hijack it. First, the President selects a Director who thinks like him (in other words like believes in waterboarding), then the Director goes and appoints the right supervisors to the right departments and gets rid of the people who don't think like him. And then one needs to go and fill the rest of the CIA with a certain personality types that are a little bit on the bad side. Oh. But will our Congress let the CIA this time?
3
If that is based on two administrations of 'ideological', one can only worry about one who is a Pragmatist.
"He is not ideological, he is a Pragmatist".
It means folks that screws get made tighter damn the moral consequences. What a horrible America we could become
"He is not ideological, he is a Pragmatist".
It means folks that screws get made tighter damn the moral consequences. What a horrible America we could become
1
We are at war.The events of 9/11 kick-started WW3. We citizens of the democratic world have a natural expectation that when maniacs and religious zealots hijack innocents in aircraft and crash them into an icon of global democracy, blow innocents out of the sky, murder innocents in shopping plazas, that we will use every means possible to defeat those who perpetrate these atrocities. I came face to face with the reality of enemy in South Vietnam in 1967. We were fighting the spread of Communism, whether naive journalists knew it or not. Sometimes the enemy is the zealotry of those who wield pens against us and throw red paint upon us as we march behind our victory flags at home. I too became a journalist on my return and made enemies within my own journo ranks. I was greeted on my first day with the national broadcaster by an angry young man, obviously speaking for some colleagues: "we don't want your kind here!" I continued my role as soldier, but with a pen. I got an insight into the army of journalism that often mistakes itself for the news and overlooks the precious values of soldiers at the front and the mental legacy of those who would give all for their beloved countries. Zealotry also flourishes in journalism and it is up to editors to ensure that one pen's view of the world does not give sustenance to an enemy that would wipe us from the face of the earth, should it find the means...and it is ever-seeking to find it. I would hate to be a detainee in an enemy camp.
5
MCCAIN: I'm disappointed. Ask any military lawyer, ask any person who knows about the Geneva Conventions that we're signatories to. We actually prosecuted Japanese war criminals specifically for the act of waterboarding against Americans.
And just two additional points, John.
One, it doesn't work. If you put enough physical pain on somebody, they will tell you whatever they think that you want to hear in order to -- for the pain to stop.
And second of all, what about our moral standing in the world?
.
But the point is that waterboarding is a -- is a -- is an affront to all of the standards that we believe in and adhere to of humane treatment of people who are human beings.
And, of course, I am disappointed at the statements that were made.
And, again, it doesn't work.
Sen John McCain
POW Vietnam
1967-1973
realclearpolitics.com
Nov 14, 2011
Senator John McCain on Waterboarding and Torture
By John King
And just two additional points, John.
One, it doesn't work. If you put enough physical pain on somebody, they will tell you whatever they think that you want to hear in order to -- for the pain to stop.
And second of all, what about our moral standing in the world?
.
But the point is that waterboarding is a -- is a -- is an affront to all of the standards that we believe in and adhere to of humane treatment of people who are human beings.
And, of course, I am disappointed at the statements that were made.
And, again, it doesn't work.
Sen John McCain
POW Vietnam
1967-1973
realclearpolitics.com
Nov 14, 2011
Senator John McCain on Waterboarding and Torture
By John King
11
Great reporting on shocking story. Needed for context of what could come next. The disturbing thing is that the recent vote might show that many in the US electorate might be ok with it, not considering the gross injustice of it and what it says about US power wielded by barbarians
4
This shameful chapter will haunt us. Now Trump wants to expand torture. Not my country and Trump will not be my president.
7
Since President Obama failed to close Guantanamo, is there any hope that President-elect Trump will? I hope so.
The men and women who planned, directed, supported or participated in 911 do not deserve one moment of consideration. These enemies of the United States would think nothing of seeing another attack on America and our people, they do not deserve the contrition that is so obvious in this article.
Think back on the attacks of these barbarians, the jubulation and celebration they felt and enjoyed. Think back on the visions indelibly seared into our brains by these vicious men, these are not soldiers, these are hostile fanatics hell bent on bring misery to our nation. To the men and women who for no other reason than being an easy target had their lives snuffed out in moments.
I for one will never forget what they did to our people, to our way of life, they chose their path, this then became their future.
Think back on the attacks of these barbarians, the jubulation and celebration they felt and enjoyed. Think back on the visions indelibly seared into our brains by these vicious men, these are not soldiers, these are hostile fanatics hell bent on bring misery to our nation. To the men and women who for no other reason than being an easy target had their lives snuffed out in moments.
I for one will never forget what they did to our people, to our way of life, they chose their path, this then became their future.
7
But the Saudi nation from which they sprung remains a staunch and fully-weaponized ally of the USA; figure that, TRFJ.
8
Remember Nuremberg. Those physicians who participated, ignored, or refused to acknowledge what was obvious to them - "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" - must at the absolute minimum have their medical licenses withdrawn and they should be forbidden to ever practice medicine again. They have betrayed their profession. They are permanently disgraced.
14
That Obama was too incompetent way back already in 2008 to stop Guantanamo will stick in my mind as what defined the weakness of that man. Travelling all over the world, making strong statements about environmental issues but incapable of stopping and punishing Americans who tortured others. That is his headline in the history books.
6
But the Donald will take over, and Gitmo will be fabulous.
He'll add a Trump Tower for more, more, more prisoners.
He'll collect all the disabled, the immigrants, the protesters, and send them to Gitmo.
It will be HUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE.
He'll add a Trump Tower for more, more, more prisoners.
He'll collect all the disabled, the immigrants, the protesters, and send them to Gitmo.
It will be HUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE.
5
This one of the biggest tragedies we face/ or we deny and neglect: the willing blindness of too many of us to what remains ongoing torture, and the effects that are unimaginable unless readers force themselves to penetrate the subject.
This is our Nazi side, our dehumanizing side. And it is not just the military and the psychological people who let sadism and paranoia reighn while disowning a moral compass of any kind. It is also about us, about the liberals among us, who don't organize to let the truth come into the open, to expose and punish the perpetrators, including members of the Bush Administration, and members of the field of psychology in very high up places. We owe ourselves, as well as those people whose lives have been amputated, the truth, coming to terms with the why.
We often say that if we don't learn from history we repeat the past. But we have to stimulate our caring valves and impulses, we have to force ourselves to read all the work that is here, all the stuff of James Risen, Stephen Soldz, Jane Mayer and more. We are acting like Nazis, or Germans who had Nazis reign and said after, "No worries, we didn't know, it doesn't matter."
It does matter, to all we hurt, and to who we are as humans.
This is our Nazi side, our dehumanizing side. And it is not just the military and the psychological people who let sadism and paranoia reighn while disowning a moral compass of any kind. It is also about us, about the liberals among us, who don't organize to let the truth come into the open, to expose and punish the perpetrators, including members of the Bush Administration, and members of the field of psychology in very high up places. We owe ourselves, as well as those people whose lives have been amputated, the truth, coming to terms with the why.
We often say that if we don't learn from history we repeat the past. But we have to stimulate our caring valves and impulses, we have to force ourselves to read all the work that is here, all the stuff of James Risen, Stephen Soldz, Jane Mayer and more. We are acting like Nazis, or Germans who had Nazis reign and said after, "No worries, we didn't know, it doesn't matter."
It does matter, to all we hurt, and to who we are as humans.
11
I believe there will be many military providers who already have or will develop PTS symptoms as a result of failure to maintain ethical standards. One that won't is the Navy Nurse, with 18 years of service, who refused to continue to force feed hunger strike inmates/patients at Guantanamo. He was brought up on UCMJ charges in 2014 & the charges were finally dropped in 2015. He believed, rightfully so, that it was against his professional ethics to force feed a person who was competent to make that decision. I saluted him then and am honored to do so again.
18
Here's a really nice article about that case by Carol Rosenberg at the Miami Herald: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/guantanamo/article75398072.html. As a physician by training, I learned in medical school (and nurses learn in nursing school) to refuse to act on orders that we interpret to conflict with our professional ethical codes. This is an even more challenging situation for military professionals bound to obey their chain of command. But it is possible, as in this example. Conscientious objection, chosen by Daniel Lakemacher in the story, is another route. Doctors, nurses and other health professionals often face difficult ethical dilemmas when they work in situations of disaster and war; thinking about these issues in advance of facing a crisis is useful.
8
Lt. Cmdr. Shay Rosecrans, that name could be a Joseph Heller character in almost any of his novels.
5
All of the things that have been listed and labeled as being done with the approval of the W admin legal reasoning was explicitly illegal.
We were taught in 1980 and it was in out soldiers code that we were legally required to disobey illegal orders and if we did not then we were legally culpable for whatever we did.
I have not seen anything from the W admin that in anyway can be seen as legal justification for these crimes unless one chooses to be blind.
I think every person whom has had any dealings with these prisoners at any point along the chain of custody is legally liable and should be held to account for their level or participation in these war crimes and crimes against humanity.
We were taught in 1980 and it was in out soldiers code that we were legally required to disobey illegal orders and if we did not then we were legally culpable for whatever we did.
I have not seen anything from the W admin that in anyway can be seen as legal justification for these crimes unless one chooses to be blind.
I think every person whom has had any dealings with these prisoners at any point along the chain of custody is legally liable and should be held to account for their level or participation in these war crimes and crimes against humanity.
10
As that legendary anonymous Vietnam War American general once said: in order to save democracy, we had to destroy it. Switch "democracy" with "human rights" or "Western values" and you get the message.
5
It is NOT anonymous
You created an entire quote for your own use. This is not uncommon in our time of populist movements where fact is no longer important, but passion is.
You created an entire quote for your own use. This is not uncommon in our time of populist movements where fact is no longer important, but passion is.
2
It seems that many Americans are guilty of war crimes and torture--and that many of the psych professionals should be decertified and jailed.
9
How do you treat someone when you are the one making them sick ?
18
Everything about this is a horror- people held without trial, torture, the USA's wars on the land and people of the Mideast, the complicity of medical professionals with the military, on and on and on. There was no presidential candidate that addressed any of the issues of our bully nation, and few local candidates. We torture and bomb and watch reality shows. We are an abomination.
22
Trump loves torture. He said so. His voters own Trump and his deportation plans. They own his judges and his tortured. Good night and good luck.
7
"Whose side are you on?"
My response would be another question, "If you have to ask that, then why am I here?"
My response would be another question, "If you have to ask that, then why am I here?"
3
In a just moral world leaders in the Clinton, Bush and Obama administrations who invaded and occupied Afghanistan and Iraq would have been kidnapped, tortured and held in indefinite detention just like those in Guantanamo. America has established the prevailing world legal environment for all nations to treat their enemies both domestic and foreign including Americans.
Becoming like the enemy is the ultimate failure of a democratic republic that has divided limited powers while claiming to be an exceptional land of the free and home of the brave worthy of any god's blessings.
Becoming like the enemy is the ultimate failure of a democratic republic that has divided limited powers while claiming to be an exceptional land of the free and home of the brave worthy of any god's blessings.
18
Only in a society as hypocritical as the Modern America can we torture people and offer them psychological care at the same time.
77
Both New York Hillary Clinton and New York Donald Trump were fine with this inhuman inhumane travesty. New York did not give us it's very best with these two ancient hoary arachnids.
13
The application of the Constitution on mainland is fairly mimicking Guantanamo. People spend decades in pretrial detention and high profile cases in Federal prisons are nearly as bad. Pvt. Manning spent 1000 days in jail, mostly naked, before getting a trial date. The 4th, 5th and 6th Amendments have failed clauses. When ordinary police can take your money on the side of the road, can we still say the 5th due process exists at all? Three branches of government and both parties have done this. Always reaching for more power, and holding the line the Constitution has failed. And so we are a failed Constitutional state. In a democracy you get the government you deserve. We are still a democracy at least for better of worse.
12
Perhaps the victims of this torture will be allowed to sue the two unethical psychologists who were paid $80 million for their roles in designing it.
22
Welcome to the New America.☺ No more moral high ground. We're really no different than those whom we hold in disdain. We use torture of course, we claim only now and then when we are freaked out. Of course, we do things very professionally with degreed professionals. So that makes it better. We claim everyone we pick up is 100% guilty just like countries run by ruthless dictators. The consequences of destroying someone mentally and physically who is not guilty of anything. Whoops! Of course the people that carry out this stuff are probably permanently scared by being good soldiers. In a sense is this really any dif than what happened in WWII when the country freaked and mass imprisoned law abiding American citizens of Japanese and German ancestry? And this was under FDR!! FDR of all presidents. We know that pres-elect Trump has already told us he has no use for certain laws and intended to do what appeases the "mob" mentality of his followers. So welcome to the New America that is unless those of us who are opposed work at nullifying illegal actions and work to bring the country to its senses!!
17
There are at least two detainees who appear to have had their suicides facilitated by Gitmo personnel: Mohammed al Hanashi and Adnan Latif. Four others were likely murdered or killed as part of some experiment. Gitmo personnel are documented as interfering with the computer recording of events, even entering false information, surrounding the suicides. Fink's article obliquely refers to some "critics" questions, but pointedly leaves examination of these suicides out of her article about the psychiatric conditions at Guantanamo. The Big Lie lives on.
15
As someone who,has studied and published on this very issue, I was dismayed by Sheri Fink's article. It covers up more than it reveals. It uses retrospective mea culpas from former Gitmo personnel and expects us to to find them credible. When the NYT had actual access to contemporaneous documents showing how leading Guantanamo mental health providers treated claims of torture by detainees (they ignored them), the NYT failed to reference them. In one case which I obtained via FOIA, and published in my book "Cover-up at Guantanamo," the refusal to listen to claims of torture led to a successful suicide attempt on the very same day the Behavioral Health Unit Chief walked away when the detainee brought up torture!
The article is even worse for its false claims. It states that "abusive practices" at Guantanamo ended in 2009. That is not true, and even the UN Committee on Torture chastised the US last year for that (not to mention articles in the press covering such things as forced feedings and brutal beatings in the guise of "forced cell extractions."
The article claims that the mixing of detainee health records with interrogation plans stopped in 2005, but a 2010 DoD IG report stated otherwise.
The article quotes former Head of the Gitmo Hospital, Albert Shimkus, as concerned about detainee welfare, without ever mentioning he signed off on a questionable program of mass administration of mefloquine to all detainees that one Navy doctor called "pharmacological waterboarding."
The article is even worse for its false claims. It states that "abusive practices" at Guantanamo ended in 2009. That is not true, and even the UN Committee on Torture chastised the US last year for that (not to mention articles in the press covering such things as forced feedings and brutal beatings in the guise of "forced cell extractions."
The article claims that the mixing of detainee health records with interrogation plans stopped in 2005, but a 2010 DoD IG report stated otherwise.
The article quotes former Head of the Gitmo Hospital, Albert Shimkus, as concerned about detainee welfare, without ever mentioning he signed off on a questionable program of mass administration of mefloquine to all detainees that one Navy doctor called "pharmacological waterboarding."
31
Only two things horrify me more than these damnable atrocities - my fellow Americans who countenance and even cheer them, and the certainty that my new President will double down on this vile behavior. America, kiss your moral high ground goodbye.
26
The subtitle to 'Lasting Scars' is 'Psychiatrists kept in the dark', but are they? "We're here to help people" v. "We're here to protect our country. ... Whose side are you on?" perfectly captures the ethical debate. This longstanding and tired issue of a tug-of-allegiance is called by ethicists, mixed (or dual) agency. Where does the moral imperative reside, they argue: with Hippocrates' "to benefit the sick ... [to] keep them from harm or injustice," or with the military's "to conserve the fighting strength"? Sheri Fink's expose' features a surfeit of "I didn't know", "I didn't ask", "she refrained from inquiring, ...". But in the end, physicians, military or civilian, willingly or not, assume their own lasting responsibility. Do they not? Inaction is an action. They must -- must -- set their own priority, act accordingly, and live with the consequences -- to their patient, and to themselves.
20
Thank you for responding and sharing insights gleaned from your own service. I'm reminded of an episode from the Bosnian war in 1995. As the besieged town of Srebrenica began falling to nationalist Serb forces, critically injured civilians appeared outside a well-equipped Dutch military hospital on the outskirts of the enclave, which Dutch forces had been charged with protecting as a UN-designated "safe area." The Dutch commander, however, ordered the physicians not to treat the injured civilians, but rather to conserve all medical resources for the battalion in case soldiers began suffering casualties. I researched this incident for my book War Hospital and learned that the Dutch medical community was, years later, still haunted by it (in the ensuing days thousands were massacred in what an international court deemed a genocide). One message from the Dutch hospital surgeon to Doctors Without Borders about an injured civilian read: "With our sincerest apologies we are not able to treat your patient." Some of the Bosnian doctors themselves, when faced with similar ethical conflicts in the years prior to that, had made different choices.
Some risked their lives to treat and protect, in their local hospital, injured enemy soldiers. And in one case, a young Bosnian doctor on the front lines, Fatima Dautbasic, was faced with an even more severe test. Her cousin was shot dead by a sniper, and the sniper was then gravely wounded and captured by her own side's forces. The soldiers took the wounded sniper to her, as she was the only doctor in the field. She somehow found it in herself to uphold the standards of her profession and treat the man who had just killed her family member.
Some risked their lives to treat and protect, in their local hospital, injured enemy soldiers. And in one case, a young Bosnian doctor on the front lines, Fatima Dautbasic, was faced with an even more severe test. Her cousin was shot dead by a sniper, and the sniper was then gravely wounded and captured by her own side's forces. The soldiers took the wounded sniper to her, as she was the only doctor in the field. She somehow found it in herself to uphold the standards of her profession and treat the man who had just killed her family member.
7
As a Veteran and Registered Nurse on an locked acute psychiatric unit I remember vividly how a Psychiatrist, who had occasionally worn his Army Reserve uniform to the civilian medical center, abruptly resigned from his unit for fear that after over a decade of inactivity he may be deployed.
Perhaps a comment from Ms. Fink would be reasonable about the ethics of receiving benefits and entitlement for pretending patriotism and then pretending not to have responsibility to the men an women serving under you. From my point of view she argues past important points made by one who didn't but in fact answered a call to duty which placed him squarely in the arena.
Perhaps a comment from Ms. Fink would be reasonable about the ethics of receiving benefits and entitlement for pretending patriotism and then pretending not to have responsibility to the men an women serving under you. From my point of view she argues past important points made by one who didn't but in fact answered a call to duty which placed him squarely in the arena.
Just close Guantanamo and release the prisoners back to Afghanistan, Iraq, or wherever they belong. They are more likely to be killed by one of their own than to ever injure another American. There are tens of thousands of people running free who are much worse and much more of a threat than these inmates. The benefit of continuing to confine them is nonexistent.
13
Perusing these comments, I noticed how few of them elicited reactions (I.e. as number of "likes"). Compare these numbers to the hundreds--often thousands--of responses to the unending, often repetitive stream of Trump stories and op ed pieces.
This suggests to me that not very many people even read this article, that we are preferring to protect ourselves from these horrors, ignoring them as "old news."
We do this at our peril.
This suggests to me that not very many people even read this article, that we are preferring to protect ourselves from these horrors, ignoring them as "old news."
We do this at our peril.
19
Jasonrex31,
Muslim terrorists (is there any other kind?)
**
Yes, as a matter of fact there are.
From the Department of Justice, 10/14/16:
"Three Kansas Men Charged With Plotting a Bombing Attack Targeting the Local Somali Immigrant Community"
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/three-kansas-men-charged-plotting-bombing...
[quote] [From the Criminal Complaint P.2]: [...] Since February 2016, the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) has been conducting a domestic terrorism investigation of a group of individuals operating in southwestern Kansas who identifies themselves as “the Crusaders.” This is a militia group whose members support and espouse sovereign citizen, anti-government, anti-Muslim, and antiimmigrant extremist beliefs. [...] [end quote]
Muslim terrorists (is there any other kind?)
**
Yes, as a matter of fact there are.
From the Department of Justice, 10/14/16:
"Three Kansas Men Charged With Plotting a Bombing Attack Targeting the Local Somali Immigrant Community"
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/three-kansas-men-charged-plotting-bombing...
[quote] [From the Criminal Complaint P.2]: [...] Since February 2016, the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) has been conducting a domestic terrorism investigation of a group of individuals operating in southwestern Kansas who identifies themselves as “the Crusaders.” This is a militia group whose members support and espouse sovereign citizen, anti-government, anti-Muslim, and antiimmigrant extremist beliefs. [...] [end quote]
6
Funny, as I was reading the comments I was struck by what seemed to me to be an unusually high number of actual replies.
I'm sure you are correct and that fewer people choose to read an article that doesn't have 'Trump' in the headline, especially one focusing on he ugliness of prisoner/detainee treatment. But perhaps also this type of article doesn't lend itself quite so well to hitting the 'recommend' button and moving on.
I'm sure you are correct and that fewer people choose to read an article that doesn't have 'Trump' in the headline, especially one focusing on he ugliness of prisoner/detainee treatment. But perhaps also this type of article doesn't lend itself quite so well to hitting the 'recommend' button and moving on.
1
The medical personnel who say they didn't know are disingenuous, willfully ignorant or outright lying. There is no excuse for what they did anymore than there was excuses for Mengele and his cohorts. My father woke up on a prisoner of war hospital ward during WWII. He saw a nurse going down the line of patients giving each patient a shot and reusing the same syringe over and over. When she got to him, he spoke up and said "You think I'm a German don't you". The woman turned around and ran out to get a person in charge. He was moved, treated better while they investigated his claim to be who he was. Our treatment of prisoners has always been less than our treatment of our own but Guantanamo and the CIA prisons are right out of a torture nightmare. The Geneva Convention be damned...we sign it , we don't follow it. Trump wants to increase this. Of course, the more the we do to our prisoners, the more we put our own soldiers at risk. Insanity is the practice of doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Trump and his cohorts and our constant use of war as a first response instead of a last result are insane.
18
@ Jaysonrex31
Executed ..., or tortured..., without a trial, without appropriate due process, without considering whether the individual might be innocent, or whether there has been a wrongful arrest possibly based on mistaken identity
Are these the new American values ? What do these say about us and the direction we are headed in ?
Executed ..., or tortured..., without a trial, without appropriate due process, without considering whether the individual might be innocent, or whether there has been a wrongful arrest possibly based on mistaken identity
Are these the new American values ? What do these say about us and the direction we are headed in ?
2
This is such a terrible story. It flies in the face of human dignity and decency. President Obama was unable to shut it down in his eight years and no one knows what the future holds under Trump other than to say the conditions could be worsened.
I see no end to it.
I see no end to it.
27
Steve C - "...no one knows what the future holds under Trump other than to say the conditions could be worsened."
Or, to be non-partisan about the future that "no one knows," Trump could shut it down.
Or, to be non-partisan about the future that "no one knows," Trump could shut it down.
5
Excuse me, but didn't Mr. Obama promise to shut Gitmo down? But he didn't, did he? Instead, like most of his promises ("red line in the desert," anyone?), nothing came of it. The President-Elect, on the other hand, hasn't made a Gitmo promise, has he? So until he does -- if he does -- there's none to be kept or broken, and there's no reason "to say the conditions could be worsened" under a Trump presidency -- no reason, that is, except for partisan speculation...
3
The psychiatric care is classified because its public release would expose valuable sources and methods necessary to insure our freedom and securty. Thank you.
2
From the article...." But they also expressed caution. “Physical and/or emotional harm from the above techniques may emerge months or even years after their use,” the two men warned in their memo, later excerpted in a Senate Armed Services Committee report. They added that the most effective interrogation strategy was developing a bond.". Your point has been shot down by so many, it is not even relevant.
6
Little is said about the American soldiers and CIA operatives who actually administer and/or supervise the torture.
I am reminded of graduate school discussions about the Milgram Shock Experiment on obedience to authority figures. This was a series of social psychology experiments described by Yale psychologist Stanley Milgram in 1963. They measured the willingness of study participants to obey an authority figure who instructed them to perform acts conflicting with their personal conscience.
The experimenter orders the the subject of the experiment, to give what the latter believes are painful electric shocks to a learner, who is actually an actor in another room. The subject is led to believe that for each wrong answer, the learner was receiving actual electric shocks, though in reality there were no such punishments, only sound effects in place for each shock administered.
The experiment found, unexpectedly, that a very high proportion of people were prepared to obey, albeit unwillingly, even if apparently causing serious injury and distress.
Importantly, the experiment also raised questions about the research ethics of scientific experimentation because of the extreme emotional stress and inflicted self-insight ultimately suffered by the subjects who administered the shocks at the behest of the authority figure.
I wonder about the current emotional status of all those who actually carried-out the cruel torture of prisoners held in Guantanamo and other CIA jails.
I am reminded of graduate school discussions about the Milgram Shock Experiment on obedience to authority figures. This was a series of social psychology experiments described by Yale psychologist Stanley Milgram in 1963. They measured the willingness of study participants to obey an authority figure who instructed them to perform acts conflicting with their personal conscience.
The experimenter orders the the subject of the experiment, to give what the latter believes are painful electric shocks to a learner, who is actually an actor in another room. The subject is led to believe that for each wrong answer, the learner was receiving actual electric shocks, though in reality there were no such punishments, only sound effects in place for each shock administered.
The experiment found, unexpectedly, that a very high proportion of people were prepared to obey, albeit unwillingly, even if apparently causing serious injury and distress.
Importantly, the experiment also raised questions about the research ethics of scientific experimentation because of the extreme emotional stress and inflicted self-insight ultimately suffered by the subjects who administered the shocks at the behest of the authority figure.
I wonder about the current emotional status of all those who actually carried-out the cruel torture of prisoners held in Guantanamo and other CIA jails.
8
To my mind, there is nothing more abhorrent and inhuman than to imprison an innocent person. It is the quintessence of injustice. That these people,moreover, should be subjected to torture is diabolical, that they shouldn't be given a chance to prove their innocence multiplicates the injustice. It proclaims that justice is only a tool to be used to serve our purposes and negates all protestations of democratic and human values that we claim direct our society.
37
I was a DOJ prisoner for 5 months but I was never charged. They never gave me a statement of rights. There was no bail hearing, as required by 18 USC § 3142. There was no complaint. There was no affidavit of probable cause. I was told in federal court that I did not have a right to an attorney. The federal public defender wrote to me in jail that they could not counsel me because I was not charged with a crime. And of course, there was no law library. It's been 10 years but I am still really upset about the experience. I don't have a criminal record.
17
These detainees are the some of the most dangerous people in the world. I as an American refuse to apologize for them. They are lucky they are getting any medical care. Send them to a jail in Peru and see how much care they won't receive.
7
Janis,
Your allegation is demonstrably wrong.
Your allegation is demonstrably wrong.
21
We're better than that...why send them anywhere when we could use them for medical experiments? I'm sure big Pharma would love to get access...we might have to lobotomize them first, but that's a minor procedure and poof...no more nightmares.
2
Harpie, why is Janis "demonstrably wrong"? What does that mean? How about explaining to us why they aren't dangerous...
1
America should wake up to the harm they have done - and are still doing. But who will suffer in the end? Atrocities commmitted can only build hate and a desire for revenge. Do you wait until all prisoners have died to sooth your conscious? When will anyone take action and close that place of shame for any "civilized" country?
16
That last little interchange of psychologist and daughter... I had a similar thought while working as a prison librarian. Prisoners often exhibit coping behaviors that we might see as childish. Or vis versa. Children act like helpless prisoners?
2
What is the point of endless detention without obtaining information? If they're to be brought to trial, do so.
I don't know how anyone could survive such torture, physically or mentally. It seems unfathomably cruel to deny them suicide - their only apparent escape.
I don't know how anyone could survive such torture, physically or mentally. It seems unfathomably cruel to deny them suicide - their only apparent escape.
7
The psychologists who work with the torture units are no different than the medical personnel who collaborated with the Nazis. They will tell you that they didn't understand or know what was happening. Don't believe it. They are educated. But they wanted the job and the money.
15
I have this abiding fantasy . . . that someone takes all the NY Times stories of what we, as a nation, have done to people from other countries and our own non white populations; bundles them up and delivers them to the doorstep of every citizen conservative in the country. Better yet, do what the evangelicals do . . . go door to door . . . and let each know that the end is near. We have met the bringer of our demise . . . and (s)he is us. PS If there are any bundles left over . . . you can send them to the liberals. But, for the most part, our choir has been over-taught.
5
It appears we have lost what America stands for.
Replace the images of Muslim detainees with images of American forces who have bombed villages of civilians and/or used drones ad took out wedding parties or other everyday activities. Would we want our men and women to be treated the way we have treated many of the detainees who were, like our people, doing their job and death occurred? Neither is a pretty picture - but America has always held itself up as being better than what has occurred and what is now threatened by our new president-elect. All of thisI makes me sick at heart.
Replace the images of Muslim detainees with images of American forces who have bombed villages of civilians and/or used drones ad took out wedding parties or other everyday activities. Would we want our men and women to be treated the way we have treated many of the detainees who were, like our people, doing their job and death occurred? Neither is a pretty picture - but America has always held itself up as being better than what has occurred and what is now threatened by our new president-elect. All of thisI makes me sick at heart.
83
"Would we want our men and women to be treated the way we have treated many of the detainees who were, like our people, doing their job and death occurred?"
How have the past eight years been for those detainees? If a President can do worse to them, he had the power for the past eight years to do better.
How have the past eight years been for those detainees? If a President can do worse to them, he had the power for the past eight years to do better.
2
Imagine how this has made the men, women and kids of the nations that America is claiming to save, liberate and help.
America is sowing the wind and will reap the whirlwind blowback.
America is sowing the wind and will reap the whirlwind blowback.
5
Most of the imprisoned at Guantanamo were innocent. I would hope that the "professionals" who "treated" the imprisoned would read the published literature, such as Five Years of My Life: An Innocent Man in Guantanamo by Murat Kurnaz. Americans committed terrible crimes at Guantanamo. As an American I offer my sincerest apologies to everyone my country harmed. My country disgraced all of us with this behavior and no one in power protected us against this shame.
58
"Most are Innocent?! How would a peeping pseudonym know who did, much less who thought, what at Guantánamo; or even a neighbor next door to where he lives? I have a strong suspicion that not all of the people murdered on 9/11 were fanatic enemies of a bizarre religion. If a few of the captured terrorists were actually innocent angels, that is just bad luck.
Never forget, never forgive.
Never forget, never forgive.
3
@Robert,
Most were indeed found to not be the "worst of the worst".
See:
"New Guantánamo intelligence upends old ‘worst of the worst’ assumptions"; Carol Rosenberg; Miami Herald; 9/30/16
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/guantanamo/a...
[quote] [...] “It was clear early on that the intelligence was grossly wrong,” said Mark Fallon, a retired 30-year federal officer who between 2002 and 2004 was Special Agent in Charge of the Department of Defense’s Criminal Investigation Task Force. Most “weren’t battlefield captives,” he said, calling many “bounty babies” — men captured by Afghan warlords or Pakistani security forces and sent to Guantánamo “on the sketchiest bit of intelligence with nothing to corroborate.” [...] [end quote]
Most were indeed found to not be the "worst of the worst".
See:
"New Guantánamo intelligence upends old ‘worst of the worst’ assumptions"; Carol Rosenberg; Miami Herald; 9/30/16
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/guantanamo/a...
[quote] [...] “It was clear early on that the intelligence was grossly wrong,” said Mark Fallon, a retired 30-year federal officer who between 2002 and 2004 was Special Agent in Charge of the Department of Defense’s Criminal Investigation Task Force. Most “weren’t battlefield captives,” he said, calling many “bounty babies” — men captured by Afghan warlords or Pakistani security forces and sent to Guantánamo “on the sketchiest bit of intelligence with nothing to corroborate.” [...] [end quote]
10
How come our guys get PTSD and they don’t? Well, probably because I’m not asking the right questions.
Says it all.
And as far as "we did the job of treating patients"... not in an ethically moral way. Then again, who wants to risk blowing a good paying psychiatric job while raising a family by whistle blowing because of morality? Money talks.
Says it all.
And as far as "we did the job of treating patients"... not in an ethically moral way. Then again, who wants to risk blowing a good paying psychiatric job while raising a family by whistle blowing because of morality? Money talks.
33
I learned about the oddest thing the last time I was in Germany: How do they tell and educate children about the horrors of Nazism? Germany actually has a formal system where they bring eight and nine years olds into a special "class" where they are told of of what their great grandfather and grandfathers perpetrated during those years. I had never thought of this strange educational need and it struck me as so sad and tragic.
My point here is that the stain of torture and terror will never leave Germany. It will always be etched into their and our collective memory. It is also true that the stain of torture, Abu Graib and Guantanamo will never leave the United States. We may not always as a country of the remember the loss of moral purpose by these events but other countries will.
As the United States prepares to re-introduce torture under Trump, I give anyone called upon to to inflict torture this simple piece of advice: DO NOT DO IT. The images and screams of those tortured will never leave you; you will be haunted for the rest of your life. No matter what the rest of the world is telling you, listen to the inner voice telling you not to participate. There is no information that you will be told that will stop a "ticking time-bomb" or any other threat, real or imagined.
You can hear the sadness in the voices of those who now tell their story. They receive no redemption from the terror they perpetrated, just haunting memories.
My point here is that the stain of torture and terror will never leave Germany. It will always be etched into their and our collective memory. It is also true that the stain of torture, Abu Graib and Guantanamo will never leave the United States. We may not always as a country of the remember the loss of moral purpose by these events but other countries will.
As the United States prepares to re-introduce torture under Trump, I give anyone called upon to to inflict torture this simple piece of advice: DO NOT DO IT. The images and screams of those tortured will never leave you; you will be haunted for the rest of your life. No matter what the rest of the world is telling you, listen to the inner voice telling you not to participate. There is no information that you will be told that will stop a "ticking time-bomb" or any other threat, real or imagined.
You can hear the sadness in the voices of those who now tell their story. They receive no redemption from the terror they perpetrated, just haunting memories.
143
There are few who commit torture who have the morals to have haunted memories. Most of them run away and try to hide when exposed, some are fortunate enough to find cover in countries that look the other way. The rest should be dealt with as we did at Nuremberg, with a rope.
However, after the record of 43 and his goons we no longer have the moral authority to deal with this sort of crime since we are now the perpetrators. Sad.
However, after the record of 43 and his goons we no longer have the moral authority to deal with this sort of crime since we are now the perpetrators. Sad.
3
Thank you for this comment, Mark. It highlights both the difficulty and importance of looking squarely at the parts of national history and current identity that are the most painful. This part of your message really struck me: "You can hear the sadness in the voices of those who now tell their story." I'm glad that came through--it certainly felt that way speaking with some of the mental health professionals who served there in extremely difficult circumstances.
8
Ms. Fink,
Great reporting and the timing was great as well. Thank you so much for reminding at least some of us of the consequences of our actions. I can't imagine that these people were willing to speak publicly about their experiences. Hopefully they have prepared for the harassment they will receive in addition to the complements. Society needs to be continually hit over the head in order to get thru the mob mentality and tendency towards institutional violence and destruction of others we fear. It seems like now days, anyone who has the guts to speak up has to pay a price. Bless them.
Great reporting and the timing was great as well. Thank you so much for reminding at least some of us of the consequences of our actions. I can't imagine that these people were willing to speak publicly about their experiences. Hopefully they have prepared for the harassment they will receive in addition to the complements. Society needs to be continually hit over the head in order to get thru the mob mentality and tendency towards institutional violence and destruction of others we fear. It seems like now days, anyone who has the guts to speak up has to pay a price. Bless them.
1
These methods were clearly understood in 1948 as war-crimes and this strange twist of offering psychiatric help in between interrogations adds a level of harshness that is hard to impossible to understand. Was it a legal requirement?
http://www.theatlantic.com/daily-dish/archive/2007/05/-versch-auml-rfte-...
http://www.theatlantic.com/daily-dish/archive/2007/05/-versch-auml-rfte-...
32
Why do we continue to treat these people like white collar criminals at "Club Fed"? They are hardened criminals and killers of Americans. We should do whatever is necessary to extract all the intelligence that they can provide. As a combat veteran, I am appalled that the Obama administration has been so stupid about Guantanamo and how to use it. We need to stop treating this as a law enforcement issue and treat it as the warfare issue that it is.
6
How many times does it need to be said:
"the most effective interrogation strategy is developing a bond"
"the most effective interrogation strategy is developing a bond"
"the most effective interrogation strategy is developing a bond"
"the most effective interrogation strategy is developing a bond"
"the most effective interrogation strategy is developing a bond"
it's right here in this article from a report by Maj. Paul Burney, an Army psychiatrist, and Maj. John Leso, an Army psychologist.
This has been known for decades if not centuries. What is it with people and torture. Revenge? Vindictiveness? Cruelty? Because it sure ain't results.
"the most effective interrogation strategy is developing a bond"
"the most effective interrogation strategy is developing a bond"
"the most effective interrogation strategy is developing a bond"
"the most effective interrogation strategy is developing a bond"
"the most effective interrogation strategy is developing a bond"
it's right here in this article from a report by Maj. Paul Burney, an Army psychiatrist, and Maj. John Leso, an Army psychologist.
This has been known for decades if not centuries. What is it with people and torture. Revenge? Vindictiveness? Cruelty? Because it sure ain't results.
12
Angel: maybe, just maybe, other researchers have come to different conclusions. And likely sometimes it's impossible to forge a bond. People often select, and cite, only research that confirms their pre-existing conclusion.
I don't claim certitude, unlike you. But I strongly doubt that enhanced interrogation methods never produce actionable intelligence. Life itself is simply more complex than that..
I don't claim certitude, unlike you. But I strongly doubt that enhanced interrogation methods never produce actionable intelligence. Life itself is simply more complex than that..
1
In would turn my mother in to stop the pain you simpleton. And I haven't done anything either!!!
8
President Obama's failure to close Guantanamo, droning, and the clandestine participation in the Saudi assault on Yemen are the darker sides his tenure.
13
We now have an unlimited drone program. Unlimited surveillance on citizens. Unlimited police powers to label citizens as terrorists.
Democrats set up the guillotine. Now, a Republican will use it on anyone who gets in their way.
Democrats set up the guillotine. Now, a Republican will use it on anyone who gets in their way.
9
This really sounds Medieval, but wasn't this place supposed to be closed years ago?
8
For those who were genuine Taliban I have little sympathy for but torture is never allowable. The problem is who are or were really Taliban and who were turned in or reported on for nefarious reasons? I think US law should rule there and as well as trials. Those sub humans in the Taliban should be so deep in prison that the have to pump air into them.
3
You confuse the Taliban with Al Qaeda... You should also read " The United States Army Field Manual, The Law of Land Warfare, 1956" and the update in 2015. " Purposes of the Law of War
The conduct of armed hostilities on land is regulated by the law of land warfare which is both written and unwritten. It is inspired by the desire to diminish the evils of war by:
a. Protecting both combatants and non-combatants from unnecessary suffering;
b. Safeguarding certain fundamental human rights of persons who fall into the hands of the enemy, particularly prisoners of war, the wounded and sick, and civilians; and
c. Facilitating the restoration of peace....
The conduct of armed hostilities on land is regulated by the law of land warfare which is both written and unwritten. It is inspired by the desire to diminish the evils of war by:
a. Protecting both combatants and non-combatants from unnecessary suffering;
b. Safeguarding certain fundamental human rights of persons who fall into the hands of the enemy, particularly prisoners of war, the wounded and sick, and civilians; and
c. Facilitating the restoration of peace....
3
So we torture prisoners and then have a psychiatrist either make it worse on purpose or try to help them. Who is on first - This country has gone crazy.
42
Torture at Guantánamo has one thing in common, with everything else our government seems to do: whether or not it works, is of no importance.
While started by the Bush administration, it has continued under Obama; and as the article suggests, there is zero chance of any improvement under the Trump administration. It is the only truly bi-partisan "effort" that our country seems to be capable of.
While started by the Bush administration, it has continued under Obama; and as the article suggests, there is zero chance of any improvement under the Trump administration. It is the only truly bi-partisan "effort" that our country seems to be capable of.
12
The atrocity and abomination of Guantánamo and similar acts by the United States destroys U.S. world wide credibility and thusly America itself Now that Donald Trump is president every country on earth will form alliances for prosperity independent of America
51
The invasion and occupation of Iraq has killed, wounded, displaced and made refugees of far more human beings that what has happened at Guantanamo.
1
George hall 52: We'll soon see. After W and company, we already lost a lot of global respect. Obama only made inroads in not making America to be a global invasive monster.
There are times when the ethical rules of a profession must take a backseat to exigent threats to national security. I acknowledge that this is truly a slippery slope and no professional--I am one--is comfortable accepting that hierarchy. But if something said in confidence can be used to avert major bloodshed, I fully support requiring its disclosure.
Also, there is room within existing ethical rules to permit this. Confidentiality is not absolute. For example, the attorney-client privilege does not apply where the attorney's services are used to commit a fraud. Therapists are required to alert authorities when there is a strong, reasonable basis to believe that the patient intends to hurt others.
Also, there is room within existing ethical rules to permit this. Confidentiality is not absolute. For example, the attorney-client privilege does not apply where the attorney's services are used to commit a fraud. Therapists are required to alert authorities when there is a strong, reasonable basis to believe that the patient intends to hurt others.
3
So the prisoners were correct to see the psychiatrists as the enemy.
And there is no time when ethical rules should take a backseat. Never.
And again you like many others are missing the most important point
"the most effective interrogation strategy is developing a bond."
How many times does that have to be said for people to take note. One could be forgiven for thinking everyone is just really into torture the way it has been blatantly ignored and dismissed time and time again.
And there is no time when ethical rules should take a backseat. Never.
And again you like many others are missing the most important point
"the most effective interrogation strategy is developing a bond."
How many times does that have to be said for people to take note. One could be forgiven for thinking everyone is just really into torture the way it has been blatantly ignored and dismissed time and time again.
9
Angel: I've already cited two examples in which formerly sacrosanct ethical rules are bent to accommodate other societal objectives. You can throw in Mandatory Reporter rules for child abuse, if you wish.
Your response is simplistic and unconvincing. Assertions, however vehement, are not argument. Neither is selective research.
Your response is simplistic and unconvincing. Assertions, however vehement, are not argument. Neither is selective research.
3
"You can throw in Mandatory Reporter rules for child abuse, if you wish."
So where were the mandatory child abuse reporters when 16-year-old (and he wasn't the youngest) Omar Khadr was being tortured by US military personnel?
So where were the mandatory child abuse reporters when 16-year-old (and he wasn't the youngest) Omar Khadr was being tortured by US military personnel?
2
Being hired by the military or even being in the military does not supercede adherence to one's professional code of ethics -- or morality. This article identifies a number of breaches by professional mental health practitioners. I believe that their primary duty was to their patients. If the military would not allow them to maintain some of their basic professional practices, e.g., confidentiality, exploration of the patient's history, concern for their current state of mind and the reasons for it, etc., then they had a responsibility to resign and go public. Ideally, they could have collected a number of professionals for this effort and that very well might have made a significant positive difference in treatment -- and put the US in a much better light.
Principled "Whistle Blowing!"
Principled "Whistle Blowing!"
78
Obama already proved whistleblowers will not be tolerated or protected. Any whistleblowers will be destroyed.
Democrats set this up. They could have been legal. They could have saved us. But they set it up to be worse than anything you could imagine.
Democrats set this up. They could have been legal. They could have saved us. But they set it up to be worse than anything you could imagine.
4
Herb, thank you for this comment. One of the psychologists I spoke with who worked at Guantanamo in the early months of the prison told me that he and some of his colleagues complained formally and informally up their chains of command about some of the ethical problems they observed. That is mentioned in the article, where one of the psychiatrists recused himself from caring for patients until some issues were addressed. This is an important example for health professionals and service members. Several of the health professionals told me that they now lecture to students about the complexity of dual roles and the importance of acting according to their consciences.
7
Following orders was condemned as an inexcusable violation of human right crimes against humanity at the post World War II trials at both Nuremberg and Tokyo. Nazi Germany killed 27.5 million Soviets. Imperial Japan killed 30 million Chinese.
5
I'm concerned about comments I see on here which continue to perpetuate a prejudice. "Inmates" and "charged with" does not necessarily equal guilt. Because they may be Muslim does not equate the above as well. But, of course there will be people commenting on here which would like to paint everyone with a broad brush.
Certainly some are guilty, I'm not saying they're all "good guys".
In the US we (used to) believe innocent until proven guilty. That requires legal representation, evidence, and a trial. Discarding this is very counter to American (statutes) principles.
Certainly some are guilty, I'm not saying they're all "good guys".
In the US we (used to) believe innocent until proven guilty. That requires legal representation, evidence, and a trial. Discarding this is very counter to American (statutes) principles.
43
So good to see Americans like us still exist. Thank you for your sentiments.
8
Thanks Nico. This is an interesting point to make in the context of Guantanamo. This article, "Guilty until proven guilty," by Karen Greenberg (author of the book "The Least Worst Place," about Guantanamo's first 100 days) might be of interest: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/karen-j-greenberg/guilty-until-proven-guilt_b_785728.html.
3
Get those men OUT! Mr. Obama promised to do so, but could not. Can. Mr. Trump do it?
I do not know where these men should go, but the to NOT belong in U.S. federal prisons of any level. Hot-head Trump may wish to execute some of them, but that is NOT our way. Where to send them? I do not know. They were bad guys from the start and after 10+ years of unpleasant captivity the majority are likely even more angry - with America and the rest of the developed world. I do NOT know the right answers; if you do, please speak up. and yes, details are necessary. -CG
I do not know where these men should go, but the to NOT belong in U.S. federal prisons of any level. Hot-head Trump may wish to execute some of them, but that is NOT our way. Where to send them? I do not know. They were bad guys from the start and after 10+ years of unpleasant captivity the majority are likely even more angry - with America and the rest of the developed world. I do NOT know the right answers; if you do, please speak up. and yes, details are necessary. -CG
4
I am horrified that we now have a president who adocates torture and even more severe forms. Obviously, the harm done to individuals was so severe that even trying to render aid and mental health care to the victims did terrible damage to the caregivers. We have responsibility to recognize the harm done, abolish all use of torture, do interrogation by establishing bonds of trust and kindness, and now we need to fix the damage we did and help these people heal and rebuild their lives. I vote that Trump pays for full body massages and gift certificates to the day spa, as well as the forms that therapy truly work to heal PTSD. They were terrorists but we Americans became monsters.
8
Susan you are simply delusional and have no idea of the value system of these people. Do not make the fatal mistake of thinking that they have the same cultural values and moral codes that we do. Have you ever lived outside the US or served in combat. If you had, you would know that your good intentions would be interpreted by our enemies as weakness.
2
Would you rather have a mealy mouthed liar who condones torture while pretending to disdain it like Obama? Or someone who supports ISIS and its enslavement of 15,000 women, like Clinton?
1
I am a social worker. I work with people who have committed multiple homicides, arson, terrorist threats, every kind of criminal act including gang violence. I visit them in prisons. Torture and abuse creates the value systems of these perpetrators. More torture is not the answer. The cycle has to get stopped somewhere. You have no idea who you are speaking with, dear one.
4
Don't worry. The President promised in 2008 that he would close the prison. If he's an honorable man he'll act while he still has the authority of commander in chief.
6
why Guantanamo is there,it is there because of Iraq and Afghan wars or we put there our enemy , or both, we all know now those two wars was useless , if those people in those jails in they are our enemy's than why we do not put them to trial and than exsecute them, we are in a war, so again if they are bad people just get rite of them , take action against BUSH, CHENEY, RICE, RUMSFELD is also a bull, our country is in deep trouble after this last election, we have to come to gather and thing about our country, not Clinton's email or Trump's sex life , just close the books and look for a happy and good America
1
As a mental health counselor, I consider the restraints put on psychiatrists and others who were supposed to treat these prisoners to be inappropriate and hampering effective treatment. I am firmly opposed to torture. If we are the land of tolerance (a doubtful belief these days), then we must hold to the example of kindness. In any case, allying oneself with a prisoner usually works better to get reliable information/intelligence.
6
I partially agree that the psychiatrists, psychologists, and other health care specialists were not properly prepared for their assignments in dealing with terrorists. In contrast, it appears the prisoners were. The prisoners played their more educated physicians and other health technicians very well. This example of the Stockholm syndrome in reverse is an excellent subject for study by, say, those psychiatrists, psychologists, and other health care specialists who will be called to deal with future captured terrorists.
It is important to remember that when one is in a fight the object is NOT to lose. If one side declares victory the opposition has a vote also.
It is important to remember that when one is in a fight the object is NOT to lose. If one side declares victory the opposition has a vote also.
2
As an experienced and licensed mental health clinical professional with advanced education and training, no amount of training or years of education could ever prepare you for the trauma of working under these traumatic conditions and confronting this sad reality.
13
Enter MK Ultra. Psychiatry within the military industrial complex has such a torrid history, it makes one wonder, is their intent to treat mental illness, or inculcate it? It's truly frightening what we know. Worse are those classified secrets and human experimentation. Can't make this stuff up.
21
Can't make it up? You just did...
2
Sorry, I cannot feel sorry for the mistreatment of the likes of Ramzi bin al-Shish. I do not feel guilty about it either. The rules for mass murderers should be different then for the rest.
8
The International Criminal Court must take action against George W Bush, Richard Cheney, Condoleeza Rice and Donald Rumsfeld for starters. In the US, the licenses of each and every physician, nurse and psychologist who participated in the treatment of any Guantanamo detainee must be permanently revoked.
Then we have to look at ourselves in the harsh light of day, without filter and accept culpability for torture. It happened on all Americans' watch.
It is intolerable. It is unacceptable. Without qualification, never again. Full stop.
Then we have to look at ourselves in the harsh light of day, without filter and accept culpability for torture. It happened on all Americans' watch.
It is intolerable. It is unacceptable. Without qualification, never again. Full stop.
36
It won't happened. The US did not ratify the Rome Statute, so the US is not accountable to the ICC. Unfortunately.
This is very disturbing, but, honestly, I'm not surprised. I wish this horrid place would close.
This is very disturbing, but, honestly, I'm not surprised. I wish this horrid place would close.
18
This war and all the atrocities they did were planned well ahead. So much that the Bush administration DID NOT ratify the agreement to continue being a member of the International Court because they knew they WOULD be accused of war crimes.
1
I thought we closed this place down about eight years ago.
5
I thought Obama was going to close Guantanamo in 2009. Did I miss something?
13
He ordered it; Republicans obstructed and continue to obstruct.
5
Yes, you did. You missed the GOP Congress and the GOP controlled states refusing to accept any of these prisoners in to their own prisons where - actually - the treatment is not so very different. They would be body slammed almost anywhere in the US although they wouldn't have had the ability to put them in boxes or chain them to the floor. I watched a correctional officer in Denver walking rapidly across hospital grounds with a very small woman prisoner who was in shackles, both feet and hands were shackled to a belt around her waist. The officer walked so fast she had to struggle mightily to avoid falling face first on the ground. I found it disgusting and inhumane then. I still do.
Ask yourself, what kind of people are we? Are we civilized?
Ask yourself, what kind of people are we? Are we civilized?
11
Yeah, well, he didn't. I cast my vote for him hoping he would keep his promise.
Let's not forget about the participation of the American Psychological Association in justifying torture, and I am myself a clinical psychologist. And let's not forget the stated wishes of the president-elect to bring back water boarding and worse. We like to imagine that we are a civilized and compassionate people and that there is no darkness lurking deep inside all of us. It's time for honesty about many things we'd like to ignore or forget.
100
We created an oubliette at Gitmo. We are still operating in the Dark Ages. What is the difference, really, between what we have done and the Inquisition? People fail to understand that morally and emotionally your actions are you and denying responsibility does not make you free. We are savages.
11
Very difficult conditions. What I can say about these environments is that people who want to make a person suffer will do so all the while convincing others that they are acting in their victims best interest. It takes months to year for principled or ethical folks to detect it and then sometimes longer for them to accept it, and then often it is too late for them or anyone to do anything about it, and even more unnerving it is usually past time that anyone is motivated to hold the perpetrators accountable. Complacency is the face of evil in these scenarios.
11
The President has one more promise to keep.
He has 68 days in which to shut down Guantanamo.
It is a promise to be hoped fervently is yet kept.
He has 68 days in which to shut down Guantanamo.
It is a promise to be hoped fervently is yet kept.
66
In his defense, he has been blocked by the legislative branch of our "government ".
He hasn't really been blocked. Obama can send them home if he want to, even if he has to do it with private money. Many of us would willingly share the cost to right this wrong.
Monday morning quarterbacking is not helpful. In the grand scheme of it all, we were attacked on 9/11 and no one really knew what other plots were brewing in the Islamic Terror pipeline. Fear is a powerful force of humanity and sometimes leads us to our darkest places. I don't fault the Bush administration for its flawed efforts.
While I can understand the pain of the people involved, war is brutally ugly and people will suffer injustice and indignities. While I agree torture in any form is reprehensible, situations sometimes call for extraordinary tactics to protect American lives. Sexual assault and gratuitous abuse is contrary to American values and therefore should be prohibited and punished according to the UCMJ and the Geneva convention.
Advanced interrogation techniques should be used only in rare and extreme circumstances and then only with the knowledge and approval of congress; anything done on behalf of the American people should be approved only by the representatives of the people and the president. I feel for the professionals in this human tragedy, obviously they were given mission impossible.
We certainly can improve on our efforts in treating enemy combatants with dignity and it appears we have to some extent, but an enemy such as this is not an easy one to play nice with, they simply don't observe human rights. In there minds enemies are to be killed and tortured based on a warped ignorant view of the world and the religion of Islam.
While I can understand the pain of the people involved, war is brutally ugly and people will suffer injustice and indignities. While I agree torture in any form is reprehensible, situations sometimes call for extraordinary tactics to protect American lives. Sexual assault and gratuitous abuse is contrary to American values and therefore should be prohibited and punished according to the UCMJ and the Geneva convention.
Advanced interrogation techniques should be used only in rare and extreme circumstances and then only with the knowledge and approval of congress; anything done on behalf of the American people should be approved only by the representatives of the people and the president. I feel for the professionals in this human tragedy, obviously they were given mission impossible.
We certainly can improve on our efforts in treating enemy combatants with dignity and it appears we have to some extent, but an enemy such as this is not an easy one to play nice with, they simply don't observe human rights. In there minds enemies are to be killed and tortured based on a warped ignorant view of the world and the religion of Islam.
5
You probably need to read more about Islam. Horrible deeds have been done in the name of all religions, especially Christianity.
21
@Ron: "While I agree torture in any form is reprehensible [...]"
Yes, it is.
It is also a violation of Common Article 3 of The Geneva Conventions.
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/WebART/365-570006
Yes, it is.
It is also a violation of Common Article 3 of The Geneva Conventions.
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/WebART/365-570006
8
Did you miss the part that "the most effective interrogation strategy was developing a bond" and ALL torture is prohibited by the Geneva Convention you can't pick and choose what you liked to do and call it something else.
As for the euphemism "Advanced Interrogation" I guess you know the Nazi's thought that one up hoping to make it more palatable to the masses and protect themselves against prosecution for war crimes - it didn't wash then and it doesn't wash now. The world condemned them for it with the US at the forefront as they also condemned Japan and many other countries for using the same techniques as are used by the US now.
http://harpers.org/blog/2007/05/the-german-experience-with-enhanced-inte...
Nor did it wash in 2014 when the European Court of Human Rights formally ruled that "enhanced interrogation" is torture, and ordered Poland to pay restitution to men tortured at a CIA black site there.
As for the euphemism "Advanced Interrogation" I guess you know the Nazi's thought that one up hoping to make it more palatable to the masses and protect themselves against prosecution for war crimes - it didn't wash then and it doesn't wash now. The world condemned them for it with the US at the forefront as they also condemned Japan and many other countries for using the same techniques as are used by the US now.
http://harpers.org/blog/2007/05/the-german-experience-with-enhanced-inte...
Nor did it wash in 2014 when the European Court of Human Rights formally ruled that "enhanced interrogation" is torture, and ordered Poland to pay restitution to men tortured at a CIA black site there.
10
Guantánamo, the gift that just keeps on giving.
When we try to justify our very poor judgment and actions because of our "war on terror," it shows us being as bad, if not worse, than our so-called enemies. I don't even know what America stands for anymore. Yes, freedom comes at a cost, but this cost is costing us our humanity.
When we try to justify our very poor judgment and actions because of our "war on terror," it shows us being as bad, if not worse, than our so-called enemies. I don't even know what America stands for anymore. Yes, freedom comes at a cost, but this cost is costing us our humanity.
78
Aye, although if you think it's kept on giving NOW, wait 'til January 20...
18
Mo - "...it shows us being as bad, if not worse, than our so-called enemies."
If our "so-called" enemies thought that we were as bad if not worse than them, there would be no more war. They continue fighting because then know that we aren't, which gives them a chance at winning.
If our "so-called" enemies thought that we were as bad if not worse than them, there would be no more war. They continue fighting because then know that we aren't, which gives them a chance at winning.
6
Watch TV much? Do you see what our enemies are doing to women and children overseas? You are basically implying that water boarding these animals is more horrifying than ISIS continuing to defy the laws of the Geneva convention and commit the most barbaric crimes possible against humanity.
5
The lack of due process is maddening. That's why our founders we're rightfully obsessed with due process rights. The whims of a king or governments are the things of nightmares.