I am sympathetic to the plight of the people quoted in this article; everyone I know is. However, A type of willful blindness is working here in two ways. First, the complex reasons for the decline in manufacturing have been well known for a long time; it defies reason that these workers don't know them and don't blame Republicans for trashing job training programs and support of the safety net. Second, for these voters to think a self-aggrandizing, bullying misanthrope who is not the great businessman he claims to be can help them reveals a rejection of reality. I am not heartened by their insistence they will vote him out of office if he doesn't fulfill his promises. Four years of Trump can do a great deal of damage.
15
Globalization is a choice, not an inevitability. We didn't have to enact unfavorable trade deals with Mexico and China that exchanged the jobs of these workers and millions of others in exchange for a flow of cheap junk at Wal-Mart. The neoliberal bias of this article and the reader's comments helps me understand how the Times helped build the echo chamber that elected Trump.
Maybe something needs to be done about these hedge fund managers pushing Carrier to move a profitable plant to Mexico, instead of warping the tax code to encourage even more vampires in the finance sector.
American manufacturing actually has a lot going for it, especially as costs rise in these previously affordable foreign countries. We have more highly skilled workers, a more educated populace, better quality controls, better infrastructure and until now at least, a more stable government. We can have a thriving manufacturing sector if we want it.
Trump probably won't bring these people's jobs back. But they knew enough not to trust Clinton to even try. They're vulnerable and scared and faced with a politician they knew was against them and some huckster from TV, they went with the huckster.
Maybe something needs to be done about these hedge fund managers pushing Carrier to move a profitable plant to Mexico, instead of warping the tax code to encourage even more vampires in the finance sector.
American manufacturing actually has a lot going for it, especially as costs rise in these previously affordable foreign countries. We have more highly skilled workers, a more educated populace, better quality controls, better infrastructure and until now at least, a more stable government. We can have a thriving manufacturing sector if we want it.
Trump probably won't bring these people's jobs back. But they knew enough not to trust Clinton to even try. They're vulnerable and scared and faced with a politician they knew was against them and some huckster from TV, they went with the huckster.
7
Your new president ordered a multi million yacht in the Netherlands some years ago, because no company in the USA could build his dreamboat, or was it better quality for less money ? We all want the cheapest product. 90% of the world market works for less wages than the American worker. If the USA goverment increases import duties on foreign products, there is no company in the USA who could fill the gab and taking the risk that after 4 years Trump, there will be a total different foreign policy. Anyone who tries to fight against the natural evolution of trade is a fool. Instead of short term protectionisme, America should invest in education and technology to compete and survive. Your poor neighbour of 2016 could be your best trade partner in 2030. Too bad the longterm insight of voters is a bit off these days and don't allow the younger people a piece of their future cake.
9
"If Trump will kick Carrier's ass, then I'll vote for him."
This would be the essence of what Democrats' campaigns were missing.
People like this don't want an explanation of why they lost their job. They don't want details about how trade deals are actually better for the country as a whole. Etc, etc.
They want to be told it's all going to be ok. They want a hero that confidently tells them "You've been hurt, and that's not right! I'm going to FIGHT for you!"
It can be a complete lie. It can be terribly obvious pandering. It can be something that is stick in the past and completely not feasible. But they NEED to hear it from a charismatic person.
I think Bernie (and Biden, to be honest) could have done this. Dems, learn from this.
This would be the essence of what Democrats' campaigns were missing.
People like this don't want an explanation of why they lost their job. They don't want details about how trade deals are actually better for the country as a whole. Etc, etc.
They want to be told it's all going to be ok. They want a hero that confidently tells them "You've been hurt, and that's not right! I'm going to FIGHT for you!"
It can be a complete lie. It can be terribly obvious pandering. It can be something that is stick in the past and completely not feasible. But they NEED to hear it from a charismatic person.
I think Bernie (and Biden, to be honest) could have done this. Dems, learn from this.
11
Dear NYT: Please follow up with these same people in six months and report how things are going.
30
The graphs under the caption "Lost Jobs and Stagnant Wages in Indiana" make clear that, despite obstructionism and complete refusal to cooperate on the part of Congress, the fortunes of those who work in the manufacturing sector have actually risen under Obama. Carrier is an anecdote that flies in the face of much larger statistics.
It feels to these workers like things are worse because they listen to voices that tell them that things are worse. This could be seen when, in response to being asked why they supported Trump, their answers went no deeper than a regurgitation of the talking points, platitudes and sound bites heard every day on talk radio. The blame for the misinformed perception of economic woe lies with those who demonized Obama and anything relating to him, and with those who chose to agree with them without doing any critical thinking whatsoever. So, despite the results having been much better for those in the manufacturing sector than during the preceding administration, they voted en masse to return to the policies of that administration.
It's shameful that so many have been so brainwashed by ideologically committed radio, television and social media that they vote against their own interest. They would do well, if they could, to realize that it is business, not politics, that exports and outsources jobs. And it is beyond the power of politics to reverse it.
It feels to these workers like things are worse because they listen to voices that tell them that things are worse. This could be seen when, in response to being asked why they supported Trump, their answers went no deeper than a regurgitation of the talking points, platitudes and sound bites heard every day on talk radio. The blame for the misinformed perception of economic woe lies with those who demonized Obama and anything relating to him, and with those who chose to agree with them without doing any critical thinking whatsoever. So, despite the results having been much better for those in the manufacturing sector than during the preceding administration, they voted en masse to return to the policies of that administration.
It's shameful that so many have been so brainwashed by ideologically committed radio, television and social media that they vote against their own interest. They would do well, if they could, to realize that it is business, not politics, that exports and outsources jobs. And it is beyond the power of politics to reverse it.
13
It is not beyond the power of politics to reverse it.
The main reason the GOP demonizes government is because government so effectively regulated business keeping the economy stable and preventing the degenerate (traitorous if you ask me) practice of shutting down a factory that was in profit and by that throwing thousands out of work and removing that tax base from the community while adding the expense of taking care of these now unemployed to the government purse just because more profit could be had elsewhere.
The main reason the GOP demonizes government is because government so effectively regulated business keeping the economy stable and preventing the degenerate (traitorous if you ask me) practice of shutting down a factory that was in profit and by that throwing thousands out of work and removing that tax base from the community while adding the expense of taking care of these now unemployed to the government purse just because more profit could be had elsewhere.
I have to agree with the talking points thing.
I'm in MN, and an MPR reporter went up to northern MN to ask some rural Trump voters why.
The response (at least the one they aired as part of the segment) went like this:
(and to be fair, it was in a very polite, mellow and normal tone)
"Well, y'know, we're just sick of being told what to wear, what to say and what to drive..."
These people are quite literally hearing and reading things on the "news" and their mind is creating a false narrative of what actually happens to them during the day.
They literally view the presence of something different as an oppressive move to try and get them to do it against their will. And I think most of this is because Fox News TELLS them that that's what it is.
Makes me sick.
I'm in MN, and an MPR reporter went up to northern MN to ask some rural Trump voters why.
The response (at least the one they aired as part of the segment) went like this:
(and to be fair, it was in a very polite, mellow and normal tone)
"Well, y'know, we're just sick of being told what to wear, what to say and what to drive..."
These people are quite literally hearing and reading things on the "news" and their mind is creating a false narrative of what actually happens to them during the day.
They literally view the presence of something different as an oppressive move to try and get them to do it against their will. And I think most of this is because Fox News TELLS them that that's what it is.
Makes me sick.
15
It's not only that falsehoods made certain people think things are worse than they are. It also convinced them to uncritically believe positive messages about Trump that are easily recognized as not true.
How many times did you hear Trump's supporters defend their choice by repeating the #1 talking point, "We need someone from outside politics. We need a businessman!" As short a time ago as it was, apparently nobody can remember that we've been down this road recently, and the results were a disaster. Remember "the first MBA President?" The guy who, before serving an abbreviated 2-year term as Governor—mostly spent campaigning for President—was owner of a major league baseball team worth hundreds of millions?
The sad part is that nobody in the media called anybody out on this inaccuracy. As a result, the perception of "First Outsider" stuck to Trump, and those previous results were forgotten or ignored.
Jon Stewart used to mock the media for its "squirrel!" distractibility tendencies. They played out in a most unfortunate way in this election.
How many times did you hear Trump's supporters defend their choice by repeating the #1 talking point, "We need someone from outside politics. We need a businessman!" As short a time ago as it was, apparently nobody can remember that we've been down this road recently, and the results were a disaster. Remember "the first MBA President?" The guy who, before serving an abbreviated 2-year term as Governor—mostly spent campaigning for President—was owner of a major league baseball team worth hundreds of millions?
The sad part is that nobody in the media called anybody out on this inaccuracy. As a result, the perception of "First Outsider" stuck to Trump, and those previous results were forgotten or ignored.
Jon Stewart used to mock the media for its "squirrel!" distractibility tendencies. They played out in a most unfortunate way in this election.
10
I want to address the "easy fix" everyone is offering for struggling factory workers, that being just go to college and get a degree, and presto/bammo you just bought a permanent ticket to the middle class. I have two degrees, one in business admin, one in design. I'm 49 and am going on my 4th year without a job in my field (am currently applying to teach English overseas in a desperate attempt to find something meaningful to do in life). Going to college and picking "the right career" is like a lottery today. I know too many experienced professionals with degrees just like myself (plenty in my LinkedIn network) who are going on yet another year without a job (the one commonality amongst us is that we are all now considered "old" which is over the age of 39, but that's for another article). These include engineers (structural, mechanical, chemical -- the latter even has an additional degree in law!), nurses, and a systems analyst with a PhD. Many have given up and are now working in min wage retail jobs. And, as a few have already mentioned, many white collar jobs now don't pay much more than low wage retail, like $14/hr (that's what I earned as a secretary back in 1992!). Recall Disney replacing it's IT dept with foreign workers, having a degree and "modern" skills didn't do them any good. I didn't see Trump talk to any of those displaced by Disney (would be curious to know for whom that demographic voted)...
10
If the Disney folks you mention were in Orange County and environs they probably voted GOP.
3
I wish you well but don;t hold your breath you elected the GOP. You know the people who created the idea of maximizing profit then enacted the plan to make it so. That plan was deregulation which allowed them to shut down profitable business and throw peopel like you out of work and take away the tax base it provided just because they could make more money by doing so.
Anyone who would willingly do that is not to be trusted with anything. Ever.
Anyone who would willingly do that is not to be trusted with anything. Ever.
6
Let me describe how that phone call is going to go:
"Hello, CEO of Carrier, this is President Trump. I want you to return any and all jobs to America because we're going to make our country great again and maybe that'll cost your shareholders billions of dollars but I've got to be seen as fulfilling my election promises and I need you to do it."
CEO of Carrier: "Well, Mr. President, I appreciate you reaching out to me and understand your position. Let me make a phone call."
Both men hang up. Carrier CEO picks up phone and dials private number.
"Hello, this is Senator X."
"CEO of Carrier here. If you and your colleagues want to continue to receive campaign contributions that will be the last phone call I ever receive from the President."
"Yes, Sir. Understood, Sir. We'll take care of that immediately."
"Hello, CEO of Carrier, this is President Trump. I want you to return any and all jobs to America because we're going to make our country great again and maybe that'll cost your shareholders billions of dollars but I've got to be seen as fulfilling my election promises and I need you to do it."
CEO of Carrier: "Well, Mr. President, I appreciate you reaching out to me and understand your position. Let me make a phone call."
Both men hang up. Carrier CEO picks up phone and dials private number.
"Hello, this is Senator X."
"CEO of Carrier here. If you and your colleagues want to continue to receive campaign contributions that will be the last phone call I ever receive from the President."
"Yes, Sir. Understood, Sir. We'll take care of that immediately."
15
These voters have been (willingly!) duped. They chose to believe a demonstrably pathological liar and sociopath who manipulated their grievances and desperation; they ignored the blatant racism, xenophobia, misogyny; sexual abuse; cheating (on HIS! workers); they deluded themselves into believing that this "billionaire", whose life is the very epitome of the class that gives not one iota of care about the working class except to the extent that they can profit from them. Maybe there's not a whit of racism among those white workers, but actions that support a racist are as bad as being one. The Democratic party has not been true its own roots, true to these people either. The wealth generated by trade in this country could have been used to spread economic benefit to all (and NOT by redistribution, but by public investment and incentives for private investment in 21st century economic activity that would bring new jobs.) And please, let's not forget that the voting voice of millions of people -- Hillary Clinton's actual majority -- said that the American people were not fooled. We are betrayed by the devices that exist to "tame the passions" of the people -- the electors created by the Founding Fathers in their less than 100% confidence in democracy.
12
Yes you cannot fix stupid. Those jobs are gone . The rust belt is dead under trump. Come 2020 both parties will turn their backs on the rust belt. Neither has any respect for those dundrrheads after they voted for trump
12
Bookmarking for reference come 2020.
8
Quoting from the article: “I guess I could work two full-time shifts a day,” he joked."" Really doubt that Carrier will come back, their owners, investors and stock holders are in the 10% that Trump will NOT tax, instead Trump will tax you and me. Even if he puts a penalty or tariffs, companies like this know it is cheaper to pay the penalties than to succumb. Like Trump weasels on taxes for 20 years, so these major corporations, they have strong lobbies in Washington to keep corrupt politicians in place, politicians who sell citizens down the river and free load from the National coffers. They are in Washington working for their free-loading Washington stays, not for you and me. They are the Republicans that represent corporate upper 10%ers and want to keep you and me members of the "sheep land". Sorry, we got what Trump's voters wanted, not what the people's vote chose. NOW WE ALL HAVE TO LIVE IN IT. Hope you are happy with your righteous vote. Remember the money that put Trump in the Presidency is now laughing at all of us, rubbing their hands because they have the Presidency, us and both Houses exactly where they wanted.
12
Unfortunately, it was not Captain Kangaroo that was elected, but Captain Con Artist, an expert at sensing and manipulating the needs and desires of his "audience". In his long career, has he ever attempted to keep manufacturing alive? Has he ever used any of his "amazing" deal making skills to ensure that more products made in America were purchased? No. Instead, Trump University defrauded people who were trying to train for jobs. He bullied smaller contractors into not receiving their just payments. Trumps' goal has always been self-enrichment and self-aggrandizement. I hope his vanity will compel him to substantively try to fulfill his promises. But that is a bit of a fairly tale. It is more likely that he will continue to act like he has in past, with very little competence, and an abundance of shameless lies, bullying and blame, all aimed at maximizing his brand and his profits. Captain Kangaroo might have been harmless and entertaining. Captain Con Artist could very well leave everyone in worse shape than they are in now.
I understand the urge to shake things up - I wish Hillary had chosen a capable and creative outsider - maybe Oprah? - instead of Tim Kaine. But this was a bloody reckless gamble.
I understand the urge to shake things up - I wish Hillary had chosen a capable and creative outsider - maybe Oprah? - instead of Tim Kaine. But this was a bloody reckless gamble.
12
A simple question for Mr. Trump. If you actually believe and have faith in the work ethic of American workers, why do you produce all of the stuff that you sell and or use in your businesses in a foreign country and not in America?
15
Well, barely a week into the President-Elect's reign and already he has 2 major issues that will set the tone for his Presidency. The first will be his approach to conciliation with the rest of America that didn't vote for him. Will he renounce the tone and statements from his campaign or will he pretend the last year didn't happen?
The second is Carrier, which Trump made as the poster child for his pitch to the working class. This will be his first test on the checks he wrote on his campaign, and it happens to be one that is in direct conflict with Republican orthodoxy as it regards corporate activities. Will he stick his neck out and use Executive actions to pressure Carrier - going against the grain of his Party, or will he fold in with the Party and abandon his supporters, now that he is in Office and doesn't have real use for them until 4 years later, perhaps. I think the answer is obvious, but the real next test will be if the working class keeps *its* promise to hold Trump accountable. Like or not folks, you've elected Republicans and an ideologically incoherent leader to run it all, so you own the results.
And here is where Democrats can shine - put out some *real* solutions to the plight of the Carrier work force instead of bromides about "education". Show some real empathy for working class issues but be honest and effective about addressing their concerns. Liberals on this board proposing "let them eat cake" is not helpful, nor liberal.
The second is Carrier, which Trump made as the poster child for his pitch to the working class. This will be his first test on the checks he wrote on his campaign, and it happens to be one that is in direct conflict with Republican orthodoxy as it regards corporate activities. Will he stick his neck out and use Executive actions to pressure Carrier - going against the grain of his Party, or will he fold in with the Party and abandon his supporters, now that he is in Office and doesn't have real use for them until 4 years later, perhaps. I think the answer is obvious, but the real next test will be if the working class keeps *its* promise to hold Trump accountable. Like or not folks, you've elected Republicans and an ideologically incoherent leader to run it all, so you own the results.
And here is where Democrats can shine - put out some *real* solutions to the plight of the Carrier work force instead of bromides about "education". Show some real empathy for working class issues but be honest and effective about addressing their concerns. Liberals on this board proposing "let them eat cake" is not helpful, nor liberal.
7
The only way you can keep US corporations from moving to Mexico or Asia if Logistics are not expensive, will be in the hands of American citizens. Don't buy a carrier product. Same goes for Goodwin,( the old Amana, as they too are shutting down in Fayetteville TN. Just hope and try hard to find something made by Americans. When we began to hollow out America producing products we obviously gave little or no thought what would replace those jobs. If as we are marketed trade is good we should realize more benefit. The silicon Valley and what they do with a server and a laptop is obvious, but unfortunately they don't have a need for many employees. Then of course if you independently raise pigs or chickens competent with corporate agri conglomerates is near impossible.How we can get this turned around is a monumental task as we daily add to the ranks of lower wage service jobs or retailers handling imports. Of course soon everything thing will be bought on line and shipped from distribution centers, primarily automated. Possibly like the Germans we need to decide what we can make and forget the rest. If GM, Ford , and Chrysler can't build cars in the US, they should relocate to Mexico.
Trump can't save their jobs. NAFTA and other free trade agreements have kept the economy growing while the underlying dynamics were changing; they're more symptoms than causes. The underlying dynamics are (a) we've gotten better at automation, and (b) the big era of American growth is over. Free trade kept the illusion of underlying growth propped up while we were no longer selling first refrigerators, cars, and computers to millions of people.
I'm very empathetic to the idea that people need and want good jobs, and that low skill good jobs used to be much easier to come by.
I don't hear lots of stories of these workers looking at moving to Mexico to pursue employment (their people presmably came here for a reason).
They probably don't want to be also driving Ladas and watching 14" Thompson tube TVs of the sort that are produced in protectionist regimes. Everyone likes their cheap cellphones and eating out a lot. They just want things magically changed so they get a better outcome in a world that has much less use for their current skills. Good luck with that. The same people who voted Trump in, for lots of reasons, are more likely to end up with less because of him, not more.
I'm not a big fundamentalist free trade fan myself because we're flooded with cheap stuff that has an unknown environmental and societal cost still to be paid. While I applaud the advances it has promoted in poverty, elsewhere, we clearly haven't come to grips with the true cost to ourselves.
I'm very empathetic to the idea that people need and want good jobs, and that low skill good jobs used to be much easier to come by.
I don't hear lots of stories of these workers looking at moving to Mexico to pursue employment (their people presmably came here for a reason).
They probably don't want to be also driving Ladas and watching 14" Thompson tube TVs of the sort that are produced in protectionist regimes. Everyone likes their cheap cellphones and eating out a lot. They just want things magically changed so they get a better outcome in a world that has much less use for their current skills. Good luck with that. The same people who voted Trump in, for lots of reasons, are more likely to end up with less because of him, not more.
I'm not a big fundamentalist free trade fan myself because we're flooded with cheap stuff that has an unknown environmental and societal cost still to be paid. While I applaud the advances it has promoted in poverty, elsewhere, we clearly haven't come to grips with the true cost to ourselves.
10
This will be one of the first test cases for Trump and I expect him to fail in the short run but not in the long run. Carrier will carry through on its decision until Pence persuades the state of Indiana to give them huge tax incentives to keep at least some of the jobs local. The workers will think they achieved a partial victory but the cost to all the taxpayers of the state will be substantial, a net loss offsetting any wage and income taxes. If, on the other hand, Carrier moves all of the jobs to Mexico as originally intended, the workers who supporter Trump on the basis of keeping those jobs can threaten all they want to not vote for Trump again, the damage of four years of lies and misrepresentations will have already taken its huge toll.
10
It's unfortunate, as I feel for the folks represented in the article... They'd be better served increasing their knowledge about Macro-economics than voting for anyone. Their jobs are not coming back...
8
Some of these folks thought they could punish Mr Trump next time if he reneges on his promise by not voting for him next time. It is highly questionable he really wants to do the job this time and they thought he wanted to run for re-election in 2020? When he would be 74?
By then, his children are likely to be in some strategic position and he will become an elder.
When Mr Trump said 'what do you have to lose," he might to telling himself the same thing. While these people have a lot to lose, President Trump won't.
By then, his children are likely to be in some strategic position and he will become an elder.
When Mr Trump said 'what do you have to lose," he might to telling himself the same thing. While these people have a lot to lose, President Trump won't.
5
"Labor has been taken out at the kneecaps for some time now with automation leading the way. Re-education offers by Carrier are nice, but what are we training people to do?"
As I'm sure you know, many companies are resisting union demands by threatening to move production to a low-wage country -- often insisting that they'll have no choice.
Sometimes that argument has merit; sometimes it's just a useful negotiating tool. But it's meritorious enough, often enough, that the US needs to face the reality that a fair portion of its work-force indeed is superfluous. US workers will be replaced either by machines here or by workers in other countries.
Most European countries seem to have accepted this. But "accepting" it here probably means an expansion of the welfare system. That's occurred in Europe, but I'm not sure it would be accepted here.
One advantage of having Trump in office is that this question is far more likely, sooner, to be starkly presented to the country. I don't know how the country will react, but at least it will have to confront the issue. Tariffs and such things are mere "Band-aids," temporary "solutions" that enable us to dodge the question a bit longer. One hopes that will become clear to everyone very soon.
If Trump somehow stanches the outflow of US jobs, great, but I seriously doubt that will happen. If Trump fails to stanch that outflow, however, other than very short-term, at least the issue will be teed up. It's time it was.
As I'm sure you know, many companies are resisting union demands by threatening to move production to a low-wage country -- often insisting that they'll have no choice.
Sometimes that argument has merit; sometimes it's just a useful negotiating tool. But it's meritorious enough, often enough, that the US needs to face the reality that a fair portion of its work-force indeed is superfluous. US workers will be replaced either by machines here or by workers in other countries.
Most European countries seem to have accepted this. But "accepting" it here probably means an expansion of the welfare system. That's occurred in Europe, but I'm not sure it would be accepted here.
One advantage of having Trump in office is that this question is far more likely, sooner, to be starkly presented to the country. I don't know how the country will react, but at least it will have to confront the issue. Tariffs and such things are mere "Band-aids," temporary "solutions" that enable us to dodge the question a bit longer. One hopes that will become clear to everyone very soon.
If Trump somehow stanches the outflow of US jobs, great, but I seriously doubt that will happen. If Trump fails to stanch that outflow, however, other than very short-term, at least the issue will be teed up. It's time it was.
6
You are right, "...Most European countries seem to have accepted this. But "accepting" it probably means an expansion of the welfare system. That's occurred in Europe, but I'm not sure it would be accepted here."
But not the welfare system, the education system. Down the line somewhere, some people will be in that mode a shorter portion of their lives, maybe 20% like now. But more people will be in education up to half of their lives, and even more.
We've got a situation where there's plenty for everybody but nothing left for anybody to do. And the refinements have to come from medicine, science maybe philosophy art space, but places the Carrier people aren't looking now. Just learing how to learn takes a long time. And how to teach even longer. Get ready.
But not the welfare system, the education system. Down the line somewhere, some people will be in that mode a shorter portion of their lives, maybe 20% like now. But more people will be in education up to half of their lives, and even more.
We've got a situation where there's plenty for everybody but nothing left for anybody to do. And the refinements have to come from medicine, science maybe philosophy art space, but places the Carrier people aren't looking now. Just learing how to learn takes a long time. And how to teach even longer. Get ready.
1
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves". Will Rogers AMEN!
12
True
1
Tariffs remind me of third-world country efforts at currency control.
Most small countries used to (and many still do) have an "official" rate at which foreign currency can be exchanged for the country's currency. For example, Burma (now Myanmar) had an "official" rate of somewhere around 8 to the US dollar (I can't remember the exact rate, but that was either it or close). But Burmese kids on the street routinely paid 23-25 to the dollar, and I heard of "unofficial" exchange rates as high as 38 to the dollar.
If the US imposes high tariffs on a lot of imports, black markets will flourish. New York (among other cities and states) imposes high taxes on tobacco, which boosts the "official" price of a pack of cigarettes purchased at a corner store in Manhattan. North Carolina, by contrast and for obvious reasons, doesn't see fit to tax tobacco.
Result? A very sizable black market in cigarettes, supplied by guys driving up and down I-95 with their trunks (or vans) filled to the brim with tobacco products bought at low prices in North Carolina and resold at high prices in New York.
It's a lot harder, of course, to "hide" a Ford F-150 pickup truck in the trunk of a car, and so black-marketing would be tougher if tariffs are imposed on Mexican-made Fords. But the black marketers would find a way -- just as we travelers did in Burma in the 1970s and the cigarette-shuttlers do now.
Most small countries used to (and many still do) have an "official" rate at which foreign currency can be exchanged for the country's currency. For example, Burma (now Myanmar) had an "official" rate of somewhere around 8 to the US dollar (I can't remember the exact rate, but that was either it or close). But Burmese kids on the street routinely paid 23-25 to the dollar, and I heard of "unofficial" exchange rates as high as 38 to the dollar.
If the US imposes high tariffs on a lot of imports, black markets will flourish. New York (among other cities and states) imposes high taxes on tobacco, which boosts the "official" price of a pack of cigarettes purchased at a corner store in Manhattan. North Carolina, by contrast and for obvious reasons, doesn't see fit to tax tobacco.
Result? A very sizable black market in cigarettes, supplied by guys driving up and down I-95 with their trunks (or vans) filled to the brim with tobacco products bought at low prices in North Carolina and resold at high prices in New York.
It's a lot harder, of course, to "hide" a Ford F-150 pickup truck in the trunk of a car, and so black-marketing would be tougher if tariffs are imposed on Mexican-made Fords. But the black marketers would find a way -- just as we travelers did in Burma in the 1970s and the cigarette-shuttlers do now.
1
I doubt this:
"More corporate lies when you say technology is the reason we are losing manufacturing jobs. You still need people otherwise you wouldn't have to hire in Mexico."
A company might decide not to automate in Mexico because labor is cheaper there. If a company needs some function performed and its choices are:
1. Hire workers in Mexico to do it for $100.
2. Hire workers in the US to do it for $300.
3. Install a machine in the US to do it for $100.
...the company probably will exclude #2 pretty quickly and choose between #1 and #3. Either way, some US worker is out of a job.
"More corporate lies when you say technology is the reason we are losing manufacturing jobs. You still need people otherwise you wouldn't have to hire in Mexico."
A company might decide not to automate in Mexico because labor is cheaper there. If a company needs some function performed and its choices are:
1. Hire workers in Mexico to do it for $100.
2. Hire workers in the US to do it for $300.
3. Install a machine in the US to do it for $100.
...the company probably will exclude #2 pretty quickly and choose between #1 and #3. Either way, some US worker is out of a job.
7
The author's statement that "in this age of 401(k) investment plans and individual retirement accounts, these shareholders are, in a real sense, all of us" is misleading. According to mid-year analysis by the Economic Policy Institute, an estimated 43% have NO retirement savings of any sort.
3
Your second sentence makes an important and valid point, but aren't you comparing apples and oranges?
I am dumbfounded that any union worker would believe that the republicans are going to save their high paying/full benefits jobs (remember how they handled the GM/Chrysler bailout?). Trump said he would--that's why he got big crowds. And maybe he even wants to, but the republicans in congress won't pass restrictive tariffs (which is a tax) or legislation restricting automation or take any other steps to regulate and tax businesses to keep their good union jobs here. Roosevelt tried similar actions with the National Recovery Administration (declared unconstitutional by a very conservative Supreme Court). For Trump to deliver what he promised, the GOP would have to go beyond what the New Dealers tried to do in the 1930s. His infrastructure spending plan is four times what HRC promised and her pipe dream was DOA before a republican congress. Does anyone seriously think the republicans are going to give Trump a trillion in infrastructure spending, regulations on business operations or a 35% tax on imports? Wait till McConnell and Ryan mansplain it to Trump. Irresistible force meet immovable object.
12
These poor people think Trump is somehow going to restore manufacturing jobs. He won't.
First, as the graph shows, manufacturing jobs haven't declined as much as people make out, and wages they pay are far above other working class jobs. Second, do these people realize the unemployment rate in the U.S. was nearly cut in half during Obama's presidency? And yes, that's even when factoring in the labor participation rate. In fact, given the historically low unemployment rate, there's almost nowhere for unemployment to go but up. I almost feel sorry for Trump in this regard.
Finally, Trump misled these poor people to believe that "trade deals" have caused job losses in the manufacturing sector. In fact, the technology sector is replacing much of the manufacturing sector, and that's not reversible. That's progress. Moreover, companies like Apple, the Gap, and others have moved overseas to take advantage of incredibly low labor costs. Monthly pay for a factory worker in Bangladesh, for example, is $68 per month. Per month. That's 2-3 hours of for an American worker. No revision of a trade deal can possibly offset such dramatic labor cost differential in manufacturing.
I predict many will still feel better about things because they have a president who pandered to to their anger and frustration. They will believe their lives have improved even if they haven't. It's the old "glass is half full or empty" analogy. Perception often supercedes reality.
First, as the graph shows, manufacturing jobs haven't declined as much as people make out, and wages they pay are far above other working class jobs. Second, do these people realize the unemployment rate in the U.S. was nearly cut in half during Obama's presidency? And yes, that's even when factoring in the labor participation rate. In fact, given the historically low unemployment rate, there's almost nowhere for unemployment to go but up. I almost feel sorry for Trump in this regard.
Finally, Trump misled these poor people to believe that "trade deals" have caused job losses in the manufacturing sector. In fact, the technology sector is replacing much of the manufacturing sector, and that's not reversible. That's progress. Moreover, companies like Apple, the Gap, and others have moved overseas to take advantage of incredibly low labor costs. Monthly pay for a factory worker in Bangladesh, for example, is $68 per month. Per month. That's 2-3 hours of for an American worker. No revision of a trade deal can possibly offset such dramatic labor cost differential in manufacturing.
I predict many will still feel better about things because they have a president who pandered to to their anger and frustration. They will believe their lives have improved even if they haven't. It's the old "glass is half full or empty" analogy. Perception often supercedes reality.
8
Capitalism rules our Country. Investors will always chase the greatest return. Communism was a failure in China and Russia. A tariff on a company might have a short term effect but some other startup will begin overseas or somewhere else making the same product just as well, better, and cheaper. Consumers will pursue the better deal. Automation gives better products to more people. Are we going to all burn polluting, more expensive and dangerous to mine coal when safer, cheaper, natural gas is available? Are people going to not buy electric vehicles and solar panels that are cleaner and save money? Workers need to adjust or be marginalized. No politician can save them.
5
Let's clarify here: People who want LESS government interfering with their lives voted for a man who has promised to use government regulation in the form of tariffs to prevent a privately run company from moving to Mexico. I guess ignorance is bliss.
17
I am afraid my fellow Hoosiers may be wrong about Trump and what he can and cannot do. I actually hope that I'm wrong on some levels. I find it especially ironic that Mr. Trump's vice president is the governor of the state where these jobs have been lost. We have had Republican governors for three terms at least and what the article points out is exactly right: modest job growth at low wage jobs during their terms. Is that really a gain of some sort? Labor has been taken out at the kneecaps for some time now with automation leading the way. Re-education offers by Carrier are nice, but what are we training people to do?
2
I would much rather pay higher prices and get a good product made in the USA. Carrier has always made the best A/Cs.
I told Nordstrom and Gap a few years ago that I'm no longer buying their kids' clothes because they are all made in China. I want stuff made in the USA, and will pay higher prices for them.
I didn't vote for Trump because he doesn't like people like me and would not ever stand up for me (I'm American but have an Asian face and name). But, I do like his pro-American stance on trade --- hope he realizes that the immigrants in this country are also the ones who would be able to staff the manufacturing plants that make American goods.
I told Nordstrom and Gap a few years ago that I'm no longer buying their kids' clothes because they are all made in China. I want stuff made in the USA, and will pay higher prices for them.
I didn't vote for Trump because he doesn't like people like me and would not ever stand up for me (I'm American but have an Asian face and name). But, I do like his pro-American stance on trade --- hope he realizes that the immigrants in this country are also the ones who would be able to staff the manufacturing plants that make American goods.
2
There are perhaps 1,000 holders of the H-1B visa who offer unique abilities not present in our country. The rest of the 649,000 H-1B's were simply brought in so that the likes of Facebook, Amazon, Apple, Google, Microsoft, etc. -- you know, struggling Silicon Valley companies -- could lower their labor costs.
Trump can certainly try to bring back technology jobs to American citizens. It is very easy: kick out the 649,000 unqualified H-1B visa holders.
Trump can certainly try to bring back technology jobs to American citizens. It is very easy: kick out the 649,000 unqualified H-1B visa holders.
6
We've had buffoons in the White House before -- George W. Bush comes to mind, and I've read that Andrew Jackson was considered by many to be an unwashed yokel (perhaps fortunately, US Presidents didn't travel as much back then.)
Even so, of course, Trump gets a very high score on the "Buffoon-O-Meter." But the bigger lesson we'll learn from his Presidency is the severe limit on the power of the US Presidency, at least in domestic matters and even more so when the President tries to buck economic inevitabilities (such as manufacturers shifting production to low-wage countries).
Several months back, a commenter wrote that she'd grown up in coal country and that no politician lasts long there if he acknowledges that the coal mining industry is dying. Instead, she wrote, successful coal-country politicians share (or at least pretend to share) voters' conviction that the coal industry would be doing just fine if the government would leave it alone.
Many in coal country will continue to believe this until someone they believe cares about them goes to Washington, tries his best, and finds out that -- sure enough -- the coal industry is dying. For better or worse, Trump is that guy.
Even then, of course, coal-country people (and their hero) will insist the system is rigged against them, but most will come to accept that coal's days are over. They won't believe it, though, unless they feel they've been listened to and given a fair shot.
That's what Trump is for.
Even so, of course, Trump gets a very high score on the "Buffoon-O-Meter." But the bigger lesson we'll learn from his Presidency is the severe limit on the power of the US Presidency, at least in domestic matters and even more so when the President tries to buck economic inevitabilities (such as manufacturers shifting production to low-wage countries).
Several months back, a commenter wrote that she'd grown up in coal country and that no politician lasts long there if he acknowledges that the coal mining industry is dying. Instead, she wrote, successful coal-country politicians share (or at least pretend to share) voters' conviction that the coal industry would be doing just fine if the government would leave it alone.
Many in coal country will continue to believe this until someone they believe cares about them goes to Washington, tries his best, and finds out that -- sure enough -- the coal industry is dying. For better or worse, Trump is that guy.
Even then, of course, coal-country people (and their hero) will insist the system is rigged against them, but most will come to accept that coal's days are over. They won't believe it, though, unless they feel they've been listened to and given a fair shot.
That's what Trump is for.
7
I am one of those educated wealthy Americans, raised by blue collar parents whose hard work--my dad usually worked two jobs-- made that education possible. My background is precisely WHY I would never vote for Trump. We need safety nets for the very people featured in this article. What happens when their Carrier insurance coverage ends? He promised to destroy the ACA. They haven't stayed abreast of the revolution in manufacturing that almost guarantees humans will become obsolete on the production line. Sadly, they bought into his empty promises.
16
More corporate lies when you say technology is the reason we are losing manufacturing jobs. You still need people otherwise you wouldn't have to hire in Mexico. It's plain and simply greed and the need to satisfy thirsty investors.
Carrier makes a good profit. They provide decent paying jobs to Americans and in turn sell to Americans. Now they want to continue to sell to Americans but not provide anything in return. They deserve whatever tariff may be in store for them.
This is all about globalization and the continuing erosion of the way of life in the USA because our government is about corporations and not its electorate. Now Trump has an opportunity to do something different.
Carrier makes a good profit. They provide decent paying jobs to Americans and in turn sell to Americans. Now they want to continue to sell to Americans but not provide anything in return. They deserve whatever tariff may be in store for them.
This is all about globalization and the continuing erosion of the way of life in the USA because our government is about corporations and not its electorate. Now Trump has an opportunity to do something different.
3
I hope we can revisit this in 4 years. I would love to be surprised.
2
"...more national income is going to capital, that is, owners and shareholders, rather than labor....It’s a winner-take-all world.” I hope the professor was stating this sardonically and not as a matter of accepted wisdom. Because if it is, anyone who actually produces the goods and performs the services that generate the profits that enrich the owners and shareholders have just been identified as losers. If that is our prevailing value, Trump is only the beginning of our problems.
2
One of my all time favorite movies was Primary Colors.
While campaigning in one of the Eastern State towns, whose people had lost their plants, the people lamented over their job loss by a closing plant and how to get that plant back.
The candidate honestly told them that was not going to happen.
But he did promise to help bring about training for something else.
Those plants in the U S are not coming back.
Job lost to foreign elements didn't just happen yesterday, it has been in the makings for decades.
Maybe people just didn't think it would happen to them.
When President Obama was asked about the immediate job lost threats early in his administration, he told them automation, as he referred to the ATM.
Members of the GOP quickly slammed him for that comment.
Many want to blame the DEMS for these things, but the reality is this is the way progress works.
Old ways become obsolete.
People want to believe that Trump will and can turn back the hands of time.
He ain't gonna to do so even if he could. He himself have products that bear his name manufactured outside of this country.
It's too late to wake up to reality.
With both houses, the presidency and very probably the Supreme Court clearly in the hands of the GOP, people are going to get what they asked for but not what they wanted.
While campaigning in one of the Eastern State towns, whose people had lost their plants, the people lamented over their job loss by a closing plant and how to get that plant back.
The candidate honestly told them that was not going to happen.
But he did promise to help bring about training for something else.
Those plants in the U S are not coming back.
Job lost to foreign elements didn't just happen yesterday, it has been in the makings for decades.
Maybe people just didn't think it would happen to them.
When President Obama was asked about the immediate job lost threats early in his administration, he told them automation, as he referred to the ATM.
Members of the GOP quickly slammed him for that comment.
Many want to blame the DEMS for these things, but the reality is this is the way progress works.
Old ways become obsolete.
People want to believe that Trump will and can turn back the hands of time.
He ain't gonna to do so even if he could. He himself have products that bear his name manufactured outside of this country.
It's too late to wake up to reality.
With both houses, the presidency and very probably the Supreme Court clearly in the hands of the GOP, people are going to get what they asked for but not what they wanted.
11
At the risk of sounding bitter, these people deserve their fate. Their witless votes for a raging lunatic cast with the nonexistent chances that 1) Trump care about them and 2) that he is either willing or able to do anything to help them, demonstrate an utter cluelessness about basic economic theory and the Republicans' fidelity to the wealthy and big corporations. So, for those of them waiting in vain for their knight in shining armor, it's going to a long cold night. Bundle up.
21
Listen folks why is this such a surprise?
Trump himself said "I LOVE THE POORLY EDUCATED".
He was counting on them to believe him without challenging him.
Now they will try to blame president Obama.
Trump himself said "I LOVE THE POORLY EDUCATED".
He was counting on them to believe him without challenging him.
Now they will try to blame president Obama.
21
Trump gives false hope.
*Coal mining jobs are not coming back
*Trumps clothing line is made in Asia
*Manufacturing jobs went to low wage countries
Also, Trump can not and will not repeal the ACA anymore than he will ban all Muslims and build a wall against Mexico.
A sucker is born every minute and Trump seems to have cornered the market.
*Coal mining jobs are not coming back
*Trumps clothing line is made in Asia
*Manufacturing jobs went to low wage countries
Also, Trump can not and will not repeal the ACA anymore than he will ban all Muslims and build a wall against Mexico.
A sucker is born every minute and Trump seems to have cornered the market.
11
As a Korean, Americans may think I don't care about this election, but I do..The world sways when the U.S. messes up.Plus I have family in the states...In my country the constitution puts education as a duty for citizens..citizens must be educated to function in a democracy. I do not know about the US constitution..but education has not been doing its job there. For too long the US has been relying too much on luring in the best and the brightest from abroad to grow its economy..thats not enough. A few elites are not enough... You people have to educate the general public.. make them smarter and better educated...they can not function in a democracy. How did they get it in their heads that the Orange One would or even could brings back jobs?
22
We can all voice our concerns more directly because we know Trump does not read. Call each of his establishments starting with Mar a Lago. The numbers are easy to find.
5
Carrier may have rights and incentives to move closer to supply chains and cheaper capital inputs including labor. But we have incentives too, and we should consider reducing Carrier's access to U.S. end market demand, proportionate to their re-location out of the country. HVAC is a big, critical component to infrastructure. I'd say it is an industry that is eithin our national interests, including climate concerns. So let's build a new 22nd century HVAC innovator and compete.
Stupidity abounds. Trump will no more try to save their jobs than he would manufacture his own products in the US. You are going to get what you deserve for your vote...no job. I don't feel a bit sorry for you...I do feel sorry for your children. Hopefully, they will grow up smarter than their parents.
16
Poor saps! He is outsourcing his OWN brand...and y'all believe he'll save yours? Esp since Carrier said they haven't changed their plans? Poor , POOR saps! Y'all sound like some lost kids looking for their mommies....SEE the writing on the wall. Take the 4 year retraining plan and move on to better things. Waiting on Trump...methinks you should just expect disillusionment...he can't do all he promised. He's already backtracking....
21
I'm particularly struck by several things. First, the gentleman who says Hillary never "sweated" a day in her life. This is a huge problem with the mindset of a group of people who grouse at the world and take no blame in the course of their own lives. I seriously doubt any body, anywhere has ever worked as indefatigably, and especially in public service! One need not work in a factory to work tiredly, to the bone. It's an old story of reverse discrimination against people (and Hillary comes from working class roots) who actually paid attention in school, utilized a tremendous intellect in concert with a remarkable work ethic. Working class people: for people who trust big government and politicians, don't wait for handouts. Trump couldn't care less about any of you. Hillary is untrustworthy: why? Because she made some mistakes and errors in judgement? Who hasn't? Stop blaming her for being human. Should she have exercised better judgement along the way? Yes but Trump has spun vitriolic LIES of shocking proportion about her and do many other things. How is Trump going to make everybody rich and revive obsolete industries while the working class whines? Trump is someone who can be trusted? Why? Because Trump says so? Rich people who are narcissistic liars with a track record of despicable behavior (and not from his remarks about women) but who have led opaque lives away from public scrutiny like Trump is just mean and already bored by his new job.
16
This is so sad to see people reaching for something that just will not happen. We know Trump cannot stop this - neither his party nor the consuming public will allow it. They reached out at the proverbial last straw and they will find they it was a fake.
They also will find that many of their jobs won't be lost to Mexico but rather to a Microchip.
The real issue, that no candidate addressed, is what is the answer to massive displacement of workers due to technology and AI. This is a real difficult issue. You cannot stop technology - but you can't turn a high school educated factory worker into Mark Zuckerberg.
That issue will need to be addressed at some point.
They also will find that many of their jobs won't be lost to Mexico but rather to a Microchip.
The real issue, that no candidate addressed, is what is the answer to massive displacement of workers due to technology and AI. This is a real difficult issue. You cannot stop technology - but you can't turn a high school educated factory worker into Mark Zuckerberg.
That issue will need to be addressed at some point.
9
Too bad Carrier didn't put their statement out before election day saying that decisions would be made irrespective of who won. May have saved some of these folk some heartache and gained them some (short term) sleep
8
Good luck to all you devoted suckers who bought this carnival barkers snake oil pitch.
But will you turn on him when he doesn't deliver?
A way to be successful in today's economy is to improve Americans educational process and help us all gain useful information.
That would have been a promise we all could benefit from.
But will you turn on him when he doesn't deliver?
A way to be successful in today's economy is to improve Americans educational process and help us all gain useful information.
That would have been a promise we all could benefit from.
10
Trump's economic plan i.e., an exceptional reduction in corporation taxes combined with a 8%/GDP infrastructure spending will have two immediate impacts. It will accelerate GDP and wage growth in the next four years. Trump will be re-elected easily if that happens.
There won't be a trade war with China. Beijing will accept a reduction in steel exports to the American market. Besides, Chinese steel producers could follow Japanese carmakers strategy in the 70s. That is, move significant production capacity to the US.
Trump has the opportunity to reshape the American economy. Made in America high-quality consumer goods replacing boatloads exports of $100 dollar bills. Who knows? perhaps the Make America Great Again campaign slogan could become reality.
There won't be a trade war with China. Beijing will accept a reduction in steel exports to the American market. Besides, Chinese steel producers could follow Japanese carmakers strategy in the 70s. That is, move significant production capacity to the US.
Trump has the opportunity to reshape the American economy. Made in America high-quality consumer goods replacing boatloads exports of $100 dollar bills. Who knows? perhaps the Make America Great Again campaign slogan could become reality.
1
At best, choosing Trump was a gamble. Perhaps Trump will implement a tariff on US companies that move production overseas. If that occurs, then these employees made the right decision for themselves. However, let’s assume Trump does not save these jobs and most posts tend to think this is the case. Then, not only do the employees lose their jobs, but they also lost guaranteed health insurance once Obamacare is repealed. They are in a much worse position. I’m afraid many thought they had nothing to lose by voting for Trump, but that’s because, at present, they have insurance through their employer. Once the job is gone, the insurance goes with it. As an aside, once Obamacare is repealed then taxes on high net worth individuals will be lowered. So, they basically gave a tax break to the people that they were obviously upset with.
Another secondary effect is that the election of Trump has resulted in a decline in the value of the Mexican Peso. That means Mexico is now more cost competitive, which incentivizes more companies to locate production into Mexico.
Let’s play out the idea that Trump will tax US companies for moving production abroad. Creating barriers such as these reduces investments in the US in the future because flexibility is lowered. We'd also expect tit for tat tariffs making all consumers worse off.
The worst job losses are those that were never created in the first place.
Another secondary effect is that the election of Trump has resulted in a decline in the value of the Mexican Peso. That means Mexico is now more cost competitive, which incentivizes more companies to locate production into Mexico.
Let’s play out the idea that Trump will tax US companies for moving production abroad. Creating barriers such as these reduces investments in the US in the future because flexibility is lowered. We'd also expect tit for tat tariffs making all consumers worse off.
The worst job losses are those that were never created in the first place.
5
The Carrier workers say it quite clearly, there are jobs, but they don't want the jobs that are out there. While I am sympathetic, it's hard to have much sympathy when these single-issue voters throw the country under the bus for their disappearing jobs instead of taking advantage of generous retraining.
14
I'm tired of reading about automation as if it were an irresistible force of nature. It's not; it's just a human activity we have decided not to regulate. Any politics that takes the middle class seriously and aims at full employment will have to stop giving automation a free pass and require a great deal more from companies that switch over to robots and dump their workers onto public support.
We've all come to realize that a company which underpays workers so that they need government support is getting an unexamined subsidy. So is a company that replaces workers with robots, but expects the laid-off to be fed and housed and kept from rioting by infusions of somebody else's effort and money.
We've all come to realize that a company which underpays workers so that they need government support is getting an unexamined subsidy. So is a company that replaces workers with robots, but expects the laid-off to be fed and housed and kept from rioting by infusions of somebody else's effort and money.
3
Wasn't high tariffs a contributory cause to the Great Depression?
5
I empathize with people who have lost their jobs and are not able, through no fault of their own, to find equal employment. But, manufacturing jobs are not coming back to the US. This us not a Democratic or Republican issue. It is a reality of today's global economy. These poor desparate or stupid people who believe that Trump, or anyone for that matter, can change that are going to be very disappointed. We can no longer afford to manufacture in the US. What are these people going to do when the cost of basic items sky rockets when the dye job red-headed buffoon places tariffs on imports and the 2 for $ 8.00 shirts at Target are now 3 for $ 46.00 ? And their ncome has stagnated and they can afford even less ? It is easy to pander to fear and distrust like Trump, it is far harder to hear and believe the truth. If we do not change our economic focus towards infrastructure, technology, etc., the middle class will never strenghthen and stabilize. Sec. Clinon is correct. And all who cast their votes for the inexperience of Trump made a terrible error that will adversely affect them for years ahead.
8
Trump can save the Carrier workers' jobs if they're willing to work for the same wages the company would pay Mexican workers. Trump can't stop companies from shipping jobs to Mexico or southeast Asia.
6
Just as they never expected the company they worked so hard and so well for over the years to sell them out for cheap wages (although they watched Carrier do that to almost every other manufacturing job in the USA), they will be sorely disappointed when their savior Trump sells them out as well. Carrier could care less what the Orange Julius has to say about their business decisions. No amount of bloviation or threats will change it. What leverage has he got? Tariffs? The company will bury that somewhere? Pulling the defense business from UTC? The Pentagon made Pratt & Whitney the sole source for the F-35 engine. Trump's got nothing but a big mouth and Carrier doesn't care about that.
They voted for a promise that Trump could never keep. They need to blame their bosses, their board of directors and a corporate philosophy that places all of the emphasis on quarterly results, not any government policies for their fate.
They voted for a promise that Trump could never keep. They need to blame their bosses, their board of directors and a corporate philosophy that places all of the emphasis on quarterly results, not any government policies for their fate.
5
No statement is truer than money follows the path of least resistant. Consumers around the world want to buy cheap goods, emerging markets make cheap goods therefore jobs in the developed world are lost.
I am noting a lot of 'woe is me' from some of the people interviewed. Get up and make things happen and stop expecting the government to fly in like Superman and look at why the world is changing.
I am noting a lot of 'woe is me' from some of the people interviewed. Get up and make things happen and stop expecting the government to fly in like Superman and look at why the world is changing.
1
False hope by those folks that expect the jobs to come back. It will be interesting to see the result 4 years from now.
6
The world is changing. When the world changes, folks are put out of work. This is not new - ask the elevator operators, buggy drivers, and lamp lighters. As we move to cleaner energy, coal miners will need new training. The answer is not to stay with dirty energy, but to help people adjust. The transfer of jobs overseas seems like THE problem to workers witnessing that activity, but they are at more risk overall from automation and computerization. Retraining, not punishment of manufacturers, is the answer.
If Mr. Trump truly puts high tariffs on goods made by American companies operating overseas, workers in the supply chain on this side of the border will suffer, as will shoppers at Walmart etc. High tariffs on goods from China will also drive up the prices for those big box shoppers. Trump and his penthouse crowd are not Target shoppers, but his fan base is. It is going to be very painful if they get what they think they want...
If Mr. Trump truly puts high tariffs on goods made by American companies operating overseas, workers in the supply chain on this side of the border will suffer, as will shoppers at Walmart etc. High tariffs on goods from China will also drive up the prices for those big box shoppers. Trump and his penthouse crowd are not Target shoppers, but his fan base is. It is going to be very painful if they get what they think they want...
11
Distinguish between loss of jobs due to decreased demand [coal miners, buggy drivers] from loss of jobs with same demand [Carrier Ford] but because lower wages can be paid out of US.
Whether tariffs or use of the corporate tax structure to try to keep manufacturing jobs in the US is wise or not is a separate discussion.
Minimum wage laws , environmental controls and safety standards in the workplace all increase manufacturers' costs.
Some of these higher costs are then passed on to consumers who shop at Target, Walmart and many other stores.
Should we then abolish minimum wage laws and environmental /safety standards.
I hope not.
Whether tariffs or use of the corporate tax structure to try to keep manufacturing jobs in the US is wise or not is a separate discussion.
Minimum wage laws , environmental controls and safety standards in the workplace all increase manufacturers' costs.
Some of these higher costs are then passed on to consumers who shop at Target, Walmart and many other stores.
Should we then abolish minimum wage laws and environmental /safety standards.
I hope not.
7
Eventually the dividends of productivity gains have to be distributed as paid leisure time to provide consumers for the production of robots.
The world is a still a very long way from figuring out how to fund 90 years of lifespan on 30 years of gainful employment.
The world is a still a very long way from figuring out how to fund 90 years of lifespan on 30 years of gainful employment.
4
What is going to happen when those who voted for Trump discover that Trump did not save their jobs.
Where will the anger of those fooled by Trump be directed.
I am fearful.
Where will the anger of those fooled by Trump be directed.
I am fearful.
9
When people have been conned, they tend to go into denial.
2
They'll just make all kinds of excuses for the guy to justify their huge mistake. This could be the domestic equivalent of the Debacle in the Iraqi Desert.
5
@David, their anger will go towards president Obama. They still think he is not American.
These people need education. They need retraining, skills that can help them.
Drumpf is about business profits, and business don't care about the workers.
Remember UNIONS?
These people need education. They need retraining, skills that can help them.
Drumpf is about business profits, and business don't care about the workers.
Remember UNIONS?
2
While some manufacturing jobs have been lost due to automation, other jobs have been lost because corporations can pay much lower wages in foreign countries.
Carrier's move was motivated solely because they could pay lower wages to Mexican workers.
Carrier's US plant was profitable but Carrier just wanted higher profits.
Ford's intention to build plants in Mexico also was motivated by the desire to pay Mexican workers a lower wage.
Are there policies the US could adopt to deter loss of jobs because of this wage differential.
We could penalize with higher corporate tax rates companies that manufacture out of the US and reward with lower corporate tax rates companies that manufacture in the US.
Businesses lose money when they are forced by environmental laws to control pollution and maintain safety standard in the work place because obeying these standards costs money. Companies manufacturing out of the US do not have to meet these higher standards.
I hope "free marketers" do not believe the US should lower its financial standards.
There are many measures the US could take to diminish the loss of manufacturing jobs.
Not all losses but a significant number.
Which is more important, corporate profits or workers who have lost jobs.
Carrier's move was motivated solely because they could pay lower wages to Mexican workers.
Carrier's US plant was profitable but Carrier just wanted higher profits.
Ford's intention to build plants in Mexico also was motivated by the desire to pay Mexican workers a lower wage.
Are there policies the US could adopt to deter loss of jobs because of this wage differential.
We could penalize with higher corporate tax rates companies that manufacture out of the US and reward with lower corporate tax rates companies that manufacture in the US.
Businesses lose money when they are forced by environmental laws to control pollution and maintain safety standard in the work place because obeying these standards costs money. Companies manufacturing out of the US do not have to meet these higher standards.
I hope "free marketers" do not believe the US should lower its financial standards.
There are many measures the US could take to diminish the loss of manufacturing jobs.
Not all losses but a significant number.
Which is more important, corporate profits or workers who have lost jobs.
4
Typo.
Fourth from bottom sentence should be
I hope free marketers do not believe the US should lower its ENVIRONMENTAL standards.
Fourth from bottom sentence should be
I hope free marketers do not believe the US should lower its ENVIRONMENTAL standards.
1
I just am so confused that some of the people interviewed don't understand that the world has changed. Like Robert says, businesses look at costs. Why would any business not want to decrease costs?
People can talk about China all the want but at the end of the day, growth markets are where the world's economy is going.
People should be open to retraining and doing different jobs if the old ones are not coming back!
People can talk about China all the want but at the end of the day, growth markets are where the world's economy is going.
People should be open to retraining and doing different jobs if the old ones are not coming back!
7
The sad tragedy of American working people is that they still think someone out there is actually on their side and will finally come through for them. They change political parties back and forth in a never ending hope for sincere help from the government even though it never actually arrives.
If Trump actually does help, it will be because there is money to be made by improving the country's infrastructure with the jobs that come with the improvement. It won't be because of altruism.
America has always Ben about the money and rarely about the people. As a 14 year expatriate living in Provence in the south of france, the contrast with America's aggressive capitalism is seen in good employee benefits, low cost college, the best health care in the world, and excellent retirement programs.
The French and other Europeans can never understand why America refuses to care more for its citizens. All its citizens!
If Trump actually does help, it will be because there is money to be made by improving the country's infrastructure with the jobs that come with the improvement. It won't be because of altruism.
America has always Ben about the money and rarely about the people. As a 14 year expatriate living in Provence in the south of france, the contrast with America's aggressive capitalism is seen in good employee benefits, low cost college, the best health care in the world, and excellent retirement programs.
The French and other Europeans can never understand why America refuses to care more for its citizens. All its citizens!
27
The US system is still organized to sustain slavery. The automatic discarding of cast and uncast ballots through the Electoral College is a travesty no other democracy slaps in the faces of its most cosmopolitan citizens.
5
NYT attempts to back track after complete disregards to SPJ Code of Ethnics. Still shoddy opinionated content passed off as a feature. You have to criticise Trump and his supporters through the context. Sorry to see the former newspaper of record fir the United States die as an insignificant rag of the out of touch establishment.
1
We were looking at a new Hyundai but now we are buying a Ford instead. I found out Hyundai is made in South Carolina and I don't give a penny about that deep red state. I'd rather buy made in Canada Ford (this model is)
Next time a farmer at farmer's market wants to sell me those over priced berries, I'm gonna think twice about buying from these trumpeters. Same goes for contractors I hire and stores I visit while on road trip.
Next time a farmer at farmer's market wants to sell me those over priced berries, I'm gonna think twice about buying from these trumpeters. Same goes for contractors I hire and stores I visit while on road trip.
12
Great, we should all boycott Drumpf businesses and products too.
2
I appreciate and agree with many of the comments already posted but would like to offer a bigger picture perspective. While the immediate talk is of manufacturing, free trade agreements and big businesses, where is the connection to the role of education and training of our young people in this? How are we preparing them for future jobs which we know will NOT be in the manufacturing sector? Perhaps it is because we have no real vocational opportunities to speak of in sectors that are emerging- coding, IT, design? Could it also be because there are so many financial issues related to the high cost of a college education today and the massive debt people are guaranteed to graduate with? To really solve a problem you need to go way back to the source.
8
You are absolutely correct. Currently two-thirds of adults (voting capable adults) in this country don't have a bachelors degree http://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2016/demo/...
So long as we as a nation don't prioritize (and make possible) raising the education bar for the vast majority of our electorate we will watch as other nations become increasingly better educated and more capable of responding to advancement through the digital and technology age. The fast road to an increasingly complex world isn't going away and we can either keep up or be left with a bitter angry population that is feeling the pain of automation, job loss, outsourcing etc.
http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2013/10/why-doesnt-the-cons...
So long as we as a nation don't prioritize (and make possible) raising the education bar for the vast majority of our electorate we will watch as other nations become increasingly better educated and more capable of responding to advancement through the digital and technology age. The fast road to an increasingly complex world isn't going away and we can either keep up or be left with a bitter angry population that is feeling the pain of automation, job loss, outsourcing etc.
http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2013/10/why-doesnt-the-cons...
3
There are summer training camps that teaches kids how to code. I can also argue for foreign languages. STEM curriculum is also a focus in schools. After reading this article (as well as the book "Hillbilly Elegy"), what I don't understand is, while the world is changing fast over the past thirty years, why didn't they seek the means to learn other skills on their own initiative. There seems to be such a dependence on corporations to provide them with lifetime employment. It's a mindset that needs to be changed.
2
The loss of cost competitive manufacturing here has consigned our middle class to a slow motion disaster since Bill Clinton and George Bush did NAFTA to us and admitted China to the WTO. Politicians of both parties and the mainstream media have been telling the "big lie" for over twenty years that the US economy is healthy and wealthy and will produce a wealth surplus forever. Companies headquartered here are profitable, but many US manufacturing operations are not cost competitive and production has to be off-shored to lower cost countries to keep the companies alive. For many millennials, this has been going on for their entire lives and they've never heard a word about it in school, on TV news, or in newspapers. Globalization has now made our cost disadvantage about 40% in most manufacturing and production. A 35% duty would equalize costs between US and Asia. But the Asian supply chain has to ship product halfway around the world to reach our consumers. Our hydro, coal fired, and nuclear electricity costs are competitive, but wind and solar are not. The big costs our government can reduce to make US industry competitive are taxes and the $2.5 Trillion federal regulatory burden, which Trump will address in January. If he gets cooperation, we'll recover. But if you lose manufacturing, you can lose related engineering, product development, and eventually sales and marketing. The integrated producer obtains a speed and power advantage that can be perpetuated for decades.
3
Need I also mention that automation doesn't buy hamburgers, visit doctors, invest money, buy cars, rent apartments, seek legal advice or any other human pursuit. Race to collapse. Buckle up!
4
Robots don't complain, or get sick, or want raises, or want pensions.
I see a lot of comments here steered towards suggestions that outsourcing and automation are alone blue collar issues. If you truly believe that, continue to feed your delusions until reality grabs you up by that white collar tie.
NOBODY is exempt from the technology march. Nobody.
Go lookup Blackstone software and how that will allow regular Joe to file legal documents without need of a lawyer or paralegal. Many, many more examples to follow, be certain of it.
NOBODY is exempt from the technology march. Nobody.
Go lookup Blackstone software and how that will allow regular Joe to file legal documents without need of a lawyer or paralegal. Many, many more examples to follow, be certain of it.
6
Interesting. I guess, Mike Pence couldn't help these people as Governor of Indiana and so the Indianapolis Carrier employees think he and Trump will help them in Washington. There is a critical thinking skills issue here that may prevent these workers from being hired anywhere! I've worked with many people in industrial company closures and job ending mergers. Workers are rarely prepared and they commonly blame the company and the government. If the person who loses a position lacks the capacity to move for another job because of attitude, finances, and cultural pressure or whatever, the road to financial stability takes a bad turn. In my opinion mobility is the most important factor, not more education or more training. Although few people like being uprooted, my experience is that workers almost never see themselves as able to move for employment. If you do not plan and educate yourself for a job in a high demand sector then you well may have to move for work many times in your life to keep food on the table. Your family life will suffer and life will be difficult. You can whine and you can fantasize about politicians helping you. You can go into worker retraining many times. If you can't move and keep moving then you may never find work. Start packing in Indianapolis because the short fingered orange vulgarian ain’t gonna help ya!
17
You made a good point - it's not always easy to move but it does give one an advantage in seeking financial stability. it's the classic rule of supply & demand.
1
GM will be laying off Michigan workers in January. Unfortunately do to the cost of doing business in the U.S,. most major companies do what is best for themselves. Of course, under Bill Clinton we sold our factories to China but everyone conveniently forgets that. I am sure with the U.S. infrastructure building these people (and hopefully others who would like to work) will be able to find employment. Americans need to become educated so they are not dependent upon factory jobs.
4
Ah, but Drumpf said it, "I LOVE THE POORLY EDUCATED".
3
How does one break through stupidity? Answer to self: You cannot. Stupidity is the willful decision to ignore reality for fantasy. I read Mr. Yate's statement. All of it. He is quite aware Donald Trump is unqualified, but..... The idiotic statement "He's not establishment" is one of the all-time head scratchers. It defied any notion of logic, reason and common sense. Not wanting a President with any knowledge, experience in Politics would be the same as refusing to hire a mechanic to fix one's engine because- after all "Can't trust those mechanics to fix your car".
Almost 60 million people have given us many decades of irreversible trauma to our Institutions- all for what; the most narrow minded and selfish view of "their" America through myopic eyes
Almost 60 million people have given us many decades of irreversible trauma to our Institutions- all for what; the most narrow minded and selfish view of "their" America through myopic eyes
17
Yes, Bob Corker will bring all of those jobs back, from his home-state of Tennessee. That'll be right after China sends all those robots back. The robots have taken jobs from Chinese workers too.
But, this'll be right after Trump closes-down Silicon Valley, since all of that technology--which he doesn't understand--is a danger to the environment!
https://thetruthoncommonsense.com
But, this'll be right after Trump closes-down Silicon Valley, since all of that technology--which he doesn't understand--is a danger to the environment!
https://thetruthoncommonsense.com
6
They actually believe his rhetoric. Long live the uneducated. There is not a snowball's chance that the rust belt revives for a generation. Good luck.
9
'He said he would hold Carrier accountable. Well, we are going to hold him to it'
I'm glad someone is on Trump's case to make sure he follows through on the ludicrous promises he made. It was so easy to go on the campaign trail and lie to honest, hardworking people like the Carrier employees and everyone living the reality of economic inequality and tell them that he would fix it all and make it great again. So easy to talk. So much harder to do.
There will be a backlash if Trump can't follow through on his loud blowhard talk. Unfortunately he might not be the one who gets hurt.
I'm glad someone is on Trump's case to make sure he follows through on the ludicrous promises he made. It was so easy to go on the campaign trail and lie to honest, hardworking people like the Carrier employees and everyone living the reality of economic inequality and tell them that he would fix it all and make it great again. So easy to talk. So much harder to do.
There will be a backlash if Trump can't follow through on his loud blowhard talk. Unfortunately he might not be the one who gets hurt.
8
Really and truly, there is little ANY government agency can do, if a company decides to locate manufacturing facilities overseas, that is just part of free-enterprise. If it is strictly a monetary thing, it is possible that 'special' tax incentives can put off the move, but it still is unlikely. You need to make it desirable to keep things stateside. There needs to be trade tariffs on imported good, and those manufactured outside the US would be subject to those tariffs. In this day and age where countries with the worse human rights violations in history, still get 'most-favored' nation status for trade, thing need to change.
4
Mr. Trump cannot save or bring back jobs to America. Reasons?
There are many:
1) No president can create jobs; they can encourage companies to create jobs via lending & tax/fiscal policy. Or scare them to stay.
2) America left the industrial age. Our "information economy" now consists of Information Svcs (computing, data warehousing, analytics, AI, etc.) and Services (hospitality, healthcare, legal, financial, consulting, etc.) jobs.
3) Blue-collar workers offer precise physical skills to industry; however their work is performed easily for less-cost by robots & automated systems. The overall cost of a blue-collar worker, over many years, is more expensive than a robot's costs. When we consider worker productivity, aging/illnesses, errors, cost of periodic retraining, salary & benefits, retirement costs, management/overhead, etc... a robot is much cheaper, reliable, consistent, easily reprogrammable, upgradable, and deductible (taxes, amortization). No comparison, blue-collar workers have lost this race.
4) Low-skilled U.S. workers are more expensive than comparable low-skilled workers in developing nations. Workers performing food service, non-precise mfg/assembly, even housekeeping/custodial work can be replaced through H1B labor at much cheaper labor costs. Jobs can also be outsourced to countries in South America, Asia, and former Soviet nations, with African workers waiting to take-up future slack. For decades, U.S. low-skilled workers will remain noncompetitive.
There are many:
1) No president can create jobs; they can encourage companies to create jobs via lending & tax/fiscal policy. Or scare them to stay.
2) America left the industrial age. Our "information economy" now consists of Information Svcs (computing, data warehousing, analytics, AI, etc.) and Services (hospitality, healthcare, legal, financial, consulting, etc.) jobs.
3) Blue-collar workers offer precise physical skills to industry; however their work is performed easily for less-cost by robots & automated systems. The overall cost of a blue-collar worker, over many years, is more expensive than a robot's costs. When we consider worker productivity, aging/illnesses, errors, cost of periodic retraining, salary & benefits, retirement costs, management/overhead, etc... a robot is much cheaper, reliable, consistent, easily reprogrammable, upgradable, and deductible (taxes, amortization). No comparison, blue-collar workers have lost this race.
4) Low-skilled U.S. workers are more expensive than comparable low-skilled workers in developing nations. Workers performing food service, non-precise mfg/assembly, even housekeeping/custodial work can be replaced through H1B labor at much cheaper labor costs. Jobs can also be outsourced to countries in South America, Asia, and former Soviet nations, with African workers waiting to take-up future slack. For decades, U.S. low-skilled workers will remain noncompetitive.
8
The government should start a jobs program to fix our infrastructure. This would stimulate job growth directly for workers repairing infrastructure but also in industries supporting the effort-steel, cement, etc.BUT, materials used in the program must be required to be made in the US. Democrats could have done this. They had a majority the first two years of Obama's administration. I respect Obama, understand GOP obstruction but observe that he is not a good negotiator. He starts with a compromise, not his original position. Republucans bargain him down. He also governs from the middle and is not a progressive.
HRC is not a progressive, either. She ignored people like those in the story and only began to pay lip service to job creation in response to Trump's efforts. Comey's two letters lessened her inroads after the Trump tapes. She and her staff blame Comey for her loss. That is not the whole story. Other news sources report that Bill Clinton recommended she campaign among working class folks like these. His suggestion was supposedly overruled by her staff who felt she could reproduce the coalition that Obama drew on--Latinos and African Americans. Not so. Hispanics went for Trump at a greater rate than for Romney in 2012. Blacks did not vote for her in the same numbers as for Obama. She, her staff, and Comey contributed to her loss. Trump won fairly. Some protestors say they did not vote or voted third party. Why? Democrats are partially to blame for this abomination.
HRC is not a progressive, either. She ignored people like those in the story and only began to pay lip service to job creation in response to Trump's efforts. Comey's two letters lessened her inroads after the Trump tapes. She and her staff blame Comey for her loss. That is not the whole story. Other news sources report that Bill Clinton recommended she campaign among working class folks like these. His suggestion was supposedly overruled by her staff who felt she could reproduce the coalition that Obama drew on--Latinos and African Americans. Not so. Hispanics went for Trump at a greater rate than for Romney in 2012. Blacks did not vote for her in the same numbers as for Obama. She, her staff, and Comey contributed to her loss. Trump won fairly. Some protestors say they did not vote or voted third party. Why? Democrats are partially to blame for this abomination.
2
Folks, there is absolutely nothing wrong with Carrier seeking a cheaper labor market. This is called free market capitalism, and every worker in the US believes in it and hates all forms of bureaucratic regulations. Every business owner or manager tries to maximize profits. You do that one of two ways; 1) sell as much of your product as you can for as much money as the market will bear, and 2) keep expenses as low as possible that will still allow you to accomplish 1). The biggest expense for most businesses is labor. That means you squeeze labor costs to as close to zero as you can. Why would you not move your factory with a labor force that earns $25/hour to another country with a labor force that earns $10/day, no union, no overtime, and no safety regulations? Who cares if you spent 17 years on their factory floor? This is a capitalist enterprise, not your family! The only chance a working man or woman has in this race to the bottom is to be in an industry that cannot cannot export it's labor force, but the trend is moving the other way. Otherwise help can only come from regulation. Mr. Trump has mentioned a couple, and if he is able to upend the wishes of his Republican congress with regulations that protect American jobs, he'll be a real American hero to American workers. Otherwise, you need to either learn to live on $10/DAY, or learn a new trade through the excellent system of vocational education in our school system. Oops.
31
Except this was not what Trump promised.
Manufacturing jobs are unlikely to return to the US for another reason, that is that cost of providing healthcare--in addition to higher wages, relative to developing economies--must be factored into the cost of goods sold. We value free markets, yet we also insist on low prices at Wal-Mart. Guess what? Those low prices come with a cost, and it's being paid by lost jobs in manufacturing. Nothing TRUMP does will change these facts. We don't get to have high wages, healthcare AND low prices!
We spent decades churning out MBA's who sacrificed good-paying American jobs for shareholder returns. Sounds a bit like end-stage Capitalism to me. Mature economies can't rely on manufacturing, because it cannot be but on ideas.
We spent decades churning out MBA's who sacrificed good-paying American jobs for shareholder returns. Sounds a bit like end-stage Capitalism to me. Mature economies can't rely on manufacturing, because it cannot be but on ideas.
3
Oops, what trade would that be if jobs are being automated or taken off-shore?
A government works program to repair infrastructure would create jobs--including good, skilled jobs. Look at what FDR did with the Works Profgress Administration and the Civilian Conservation Corps. The CCC built Skyline Drive in Shenandoah National Park. Even state parks have CCC and WPA structures and products that have stood the test of time. What are we doing now? Decimating our national parks system and ignoring our failing infrastructure. Putting money into public transportation such as rail service would also stimulate jobs. For all of these efforts there should be a requirement that materials used must be manufactured in the US-steel, cement, rails, rail cars, etc.
Trump will not do this. HRC was not planning to do this. Obama did not really push this. If we do not use government to leverage jobs creation, we will continue to lose the battle. My last Nissan was made in Tennessee. My current Nissan was made in Mexico. There probably is no way to reverse the
that trend but there is a way to create a trend at home. No politician has tried. None will.
A government works program to repair infrastructure would create jobs--including good, skilled jobs. Look at what FDR did with the Works Profgress Administration and the Civilian Conservation Corps. The CCC built Skyline Drive in Shenandoah National Park. Even state parks have CCC and WPA structures and products that have stood the test of time. What are we doing now? Decimating our national parks system and ignoring our failing infrastructure. Putting money into public transportation such as rail service would also stimulate jobs. For all of these efforts there should be a requirement that materials used must be manufactured in the US-steel, cement, rails, rail cars, etc.
Trump will not do this. HRC was not planning to do this. Obama did not really push this. If we do not use government to leverage jobs creation, we will continue to lose the battle. My last Nissan was made in Tennessee. My current Nissan was made in Mexico. There probably is no way to reverse the
that trend but there is a way to create a trend at home. No politician has tried. None will.
1
The only solution to the loss of income (it REALLY is an income issue first, jobs are the vehicle for most people) is too radical for this country to grasp - at least at this time. There is too much room for the financial and political elite to increase suffering, and too much room left to pillage the middle class.
1. Cut the work week to 30 hours. Immediately, there will be many more people employed. Big business and their gambler-shareholders won't like it because it raises the expense side.
2. Only allow small and medium size businesses to exist. For example, outlaw businesses over 5000 employees, including contractors. This will create competition, and new businesses as big business is broken up.
3. Ditch the concept of publicly owned companies, and the equity market. Require those who own a business to work for the business. If a business needs capital, let them get a loan or float a bond.
4. Encourage worker owned cooperatives as the norm. There are variations on how these can be set up.
5. For any situation where an exception supports the PUBLIC interest, the business will be highly regulated - FOR the PUBLIC interest.
1. Cut the work week to 30 hours. Immediately, there will be many more people employed. Big business and their gambler-shareholders won't like it because it raises the expense side.
2. Only allow small and medium size businesses to exist. For example, outlaw businesses over 5000 employees, including contractors. This will create competition, and new businesses as big business is broken up.
3. Ditch the concept of publicly owned companies, and the equity market. Require those who own a business to work for the business. If a business needs capital, let them get a loan or float a bond.
4. Encourage worker owned cooperatives as the norm. There are variations on how these can be set up.
5. For any situation where an exception supports the PUBLIC interest, the business will be highly regulated - FOR the PUBLIC interest.
6
I will follow the Carrier story closely, as will many others. It will be interesting to see how Trump intends to keep Carrier in the US, forcing them to spend far more than they would by moving to Mexico. Certainly, Trump never spent a nickel he didn't have to in his own businesses, but perhaps transitioning to the WH will effect a sea change.
We'll see.
We'll see.
9
"...It is precisely this level of enthusiasm, from Mr. Roell and millions of like-minded Americans, that pollsters and the campaign of Hillary Clinton did not appreciate..."
But why? And how could this be seen as other than complete indifference by the Democrats to the suffering of our own people?
It is as if unless it is a photo op with a refugee family, ala Justin Trudeau, the Left has no interest in the working or middle classes.
I voted for Hillary, not happily, but it is hard to see this as other than a well-deserved loss by the Democrats.
But why? And how could this be seen as other than complete indifference by the Democrats to the suffering of our own people?
It is as if unless it is a photo op with a refugee family, ala Justin Trudeau, the Left has no interest in the working or middle classes.
I voted for Hillary, not happily, but it is hard to see this as other than a well-deserved loss by the Democrats.
5
The key tragedy for these workers is that they are convinced that the Democrats are responsible for their economic insecurity, when it was Republican resistance to things like infrastructure spending, raising the minimum wage and a larger stimulus package that have made their jobs so insecure. Even NAFTA was a Republican trade deal (passed with the support of a 'triangulating' Democratic president, Bill Clinton). The mistake Hillary made (easy to see in retrospect) was to focus too much on Trump, when she should have been running against the "do nothing" Republican Congress (as Truman did in 1948).
23
Well put. The Clintons are not liberals or progressives. Bill Clinton ran as a "centrist" democrat. GHW Bush and republican majorities in congress created NAFTA. Clinton later signed the enabling legislation because there was a regime change in the interim. It was news then and is still memorable now because a democrat signed on to what had historically been pro-business, anti-worker republican trade policy. Ditto GATT, WTO and the rest.
Hillary proposed, if memory serves, $238 billion in infrastructure spending. Trump promised a trillion. It's hard to see how republican majorities in congress will go along with that or tariffs on imported goods (which is a tax). Trump's economic plan is far left of HRC's. I can easily see why blue collar voters went for it. But I cannot see how conservative republicans will ever allow Trump's promises to them to be fulfilled. Obama's recovery has been sluggish precisely because the republicans refused to ramp up spending during the recession. They'll give tax breaks to businesses, but that will only encourage them to move off shore to cut costs. Republican leaders have already said they won't even hold a vote on several of Trump's main pledges. These folks have not been conned if Trump delivers on what they heard him promise. But they are the only ones who believe it. The rest of us know the republicans will not spend four times what HRC proposed or slap a 35% tariff on goods from Mexico and China. Then what?
Hillary proposed, if memory serves, $238 billion in infrastructure spending. Trump promised a trillion. It's hard to see how republican majorities in congress will go along with that or tariffs on imported goods (which is a tax). Trump's economic plan is far left of HRC's. I can easily see why blue collar voters went for it. But I cannot see how conservative republicans will ever allow Trump's promises to them to be fulfilled. Obama's recovery has been sluggish precisely because the republicans refused to ramp up spending during the recession. They'll give tax breaks to businesses, but that will only encourage them to move off shore to cut costs. Republican leaders have already said they won't even hold a vote on several of Trump's main pledges. These folks have not been conned if Trump delivers on what they heard him promise. But they are the only ones who believe it. The rest of us know the republicans will not spend four times what HRC proposed or slap a 35% tariff on goods from Mexico and China. Then what?
1
There's a lot of mistaken information in most of these comments so let me try to help correct them. 1) Tariffs do work; the USA and its middle class and workers thrived for most of the 20th Century under high protective tariffs until President Bill Clinton signed NAFTA and other free trade agreements soon followed along with a flood of job losses. 2) US manufacturing is a little-told and mostly-unknown big success story right now; why as examples hardly another week goes by without the announcement of yet another foreign auto plant (or their suppliers) opening up here in the USA from brands like Volvo, BMW, Mercedes, Kia, Hyundai, Subaru, Honda, Toyota, and others. 3) We don't have to be forced to compete with third world labor by anyone; Europe doesn't have free trade agreements at all and their large manufacturing sector, their workers, and middle class are all thriving. Don't believe all the nonsense and lies you've been told by big business and politicians that tariffs don't work, that manufacturing is dead, and that this is just the way of the world so get used to it because it isn't.
24
"Europe doesn't have free trade agreements at all and their large manufacturing sector, their workers, and middle class are all thriving."
The EU begs to differ:
http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/agreements/
In fact because of Brexit the EU will soon be negotiating with the UK.
"Don't believe all the nonsense and lies you've been told by big business and politicians that tariffs don't work, that manufacturing is dead, and that this is just the way of the world so get used to it because it isn't."
If you do some research you will find that when properly executed free trade benefits both parties, global trade benefits the entire world:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/26/upshot/economists-actually-agree-on-th...
The biggest problem is that many of these trade agreements are negotiated in secret by national governments intent on protecting their various special interests.
Hypothetically free trade agreements that benefit American big business would not be as big a problem for American citizens if American corporations were good citizens.
If they paid their taxes and chose to make a little less profit so they they can strengthen the people living in the communities they do business in.
But unfortunately free trade agreements do nothing to make American corporations good citizens. That is solely up to American business and the American citizens who run it.
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo
The EU begs to differ:
http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/agreements/
In fact because of Brexit the EU will soon be negotiating with the UK.
"Don't believe all the nonsense and lies you've been told by big business and politicians that tariffs don't work, that manufacturing is dead, and that this is just the way of the world so get used to it because it isn't."
If you do some research you will find that when properly executed free trade benefits both parties, global trade benefits the entire world:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/26/upshot/economists-actually-agree-on-th...
The biggest problem is that many of these trade agreements are negotiated in secret by national governments intent on protecting their various special interests.
Hypothetically free trade agreements that benefit American big business would not be as big a problem for American citizens if American corporations were good citizens.
If they paid their taxes and chose to make a little less profit so they they can strengthen the people living in the communities they do business in.
But unfortunately free trade agreements do nothing to make American corporations good citizens. That is solely up to American business and the American citizens who run it.
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo
3
Non-US auto makers are mostly building their plants in the non-union South where they can get cheap labor, not the Rust Belt. Remember the screaming fit that Bob Corker and Bill Haslem had when VW in Tennessee suggested adopting something along the lines of the workers' council model that they use in their other plants They are also mostly building cars that sell at a high margin, such as BMW and Mercedes SUVs (which sell to wealthy Americans who want big vehicles).
As others have commented, the American worker is also the American consumer, and the American car buyer in search of a new small and/or cheap car wants to pay less than $20k, and that just doesn't accommodate paying a living wage to US auto workers. Not when auto makers need to sell the same cars to the Latin American market. Are Americans really going to pay $25,000 for a Focus or a Versa, either because of tariffs or labor costs? No more so than would they pay $1200 for an iPhone.
If you want to make the case that tariffs work, check the country-of-origin labels of the things you buy, and square the cost of making them with a $15/hr wage. The idea that Americans will pay extra for things made by decently-paid Americans is mostly not borne out, other than the most liberal "locavore" enclaves.
As others have commented, the American worker is also the American consumer, and the American car buyer in search of a new small and/or cheap car wants to pay less than $20k, and that just doesn't accommodate paying a living wage to US auto workers. Not when auto makers need to sell the same cars to the Latin American market. Are Americans really going to pay $25,000 for a Focus or a Versa, either because of tariffs or labor costs? No more so than would they pay $1200 for an iPhone.
If you want to make the case that tariffs work, check the country-of-origin labels of the things you buy, and square the cost of making them with a $15/hr wage. The idea that Americans will pay extra for things made by decently-paid Americans is mostly not borne out, other than the most liberal "locavore" enclaves.
7
europe does have free trade. It's called the European Union. And many of their countries have used the great wealth generated by that trade to support and grow their middle class, through social programs, through job-creating public investment, and through strong labor policies. People in those countries are healthier, better educated, and yes, even happier, than Americans. Canada also has free trade but a much more progressive civil society.
Democrats in congress should not wait for Trump to take office to call his(and the GOP's) bluff on helping the working class.
They should submit bill after bill for things like easing unionization in the service sector, meaningful retraining funds, labor-intensive infrastructure projects, etc.
Why should we wait to act? Let's see how serious he is about all those Hoosiers, Buckeyes, Badgers, and Wolverines who voted for him.
They should submit bill after bill for things like easing unionization in the service sector, meaningful retraining funds, labor-intensive infrastructure projects, etc.
Why should we wait to act? Let's see how serious he is about all those Hoosiers, Buckeyes, Badgers, and Wolverines who voted for him.
12
I'm just out of gas. I'm reading "Hillbilly Elegy" now. I also read "Evicted" this summer.
My grandfather was the president of the Wisconsin AFL-CIO in the '60s.
With that strong labor family background, of his two surviving children (one son killed in WWII, the other 2 served, but made it back) one went in to law, and in my father's case, without college (married right after returning from war), struck out as a salesman and later, a small business owner.
My grandfather lived the high life (Union bigwig).
My uncle -- the lawyer -- lived the high life. (Educated, connected; see above.)
My father, who was smart, and funny and creative, worked like crazy -- and money was always tight when we 3 kids were growing up. And after he died (young). It just never got easier.
Despite this, both my brothers went into independent work / small business ownership, and for me, I took a admin. job in advertising ... it was fun! No college and no pensions for any of us. I had the more secure position in terms of benefits. But we were all kind of free spirits.
So, I really get labor. I RESPECT labor. Yet I fear 'those days' are long gone, and Donald Trump, retro as he is in all facets of his life and personality ... isn't going to change that.
He may well, however, along with his appointees, wreck the country and the environment for decades and decades to come.
I really don't know how we get past or over him ... he's 's, so dangerous.
Good luck to ALL ... we're gonna need it.
My grandfather was the president of the Wisconsin AFL-CIO in the '60s.
With that strong labor family background, of his two surviving children (one son killed in WWII, the other 2 served, but made it back) one went in to law, and in my father's case, without college (married right after returning from war), struck out as a salesman and later, a small business owner.
My grandfather lived the high life (Union bigwig).
My uncle -- the lawyer -- lived the high life. (Educated, connected; see above.)
My father, who was smart, and funny and creative, worked like crazy -- and money was always tight when we 3 kids were growing up. And after he died (young). It just never got easier.
Despite this, both my brothers went into independent work / small business ownership, and for me, I took a admin. job in advertising ... it was fun! No college and no pensions for any of us. I had the more secure position in terms of benefits. But we were all kind of free spirits.
So, I really get labor. I RESPECT labor. Yet I fear 'those days' are long gone, and Donald Trump, retro as he is in all facets of his life and personality ... isn't going to change that.
He may well, however, along with his appointees, wreck the country and the environment for decades and decades to come.
I really don't know how we get past or over him ... he's 's, so dangerous.
Good luck to ALL ... we're gonna need it.
22
Those who comment that Trump can't bring manufacturing back to the US should take a tour of the South where manufacturing is booming. Of course for manufacturers to invest and succeed they need government which appreciates the challenge these companies face and helps them in a way the government can. Most obvious are labor laws and regulations. Across the region "right-to-work" is basic law; while in northern states it's just the opposite. It's near impossible for companies with strong unions to be competitive in the world market. The UAW nearly killed the US auto industry; and that's why the survivors ship jobs to Mexico. In South Carolina manufacturers build BMW's , Mercedes, Volvo, a hots of support companies, oh - and Boeing airplanes. It's no secret - get rid of the unions and companies will stay in the US.
4
I think the problem, at least with the auto industry, was more management that was not able to make rational sense of competition from Japan than anything having to do with unions. Until the late 80's, "imports" was considered a market segment by the big three. How to incorrectly identify your competition in one easy step!
2
The irony is, that Trump won with the help of union workers in typically Democratic states like Ohio and Michigan.
4
Workers in many of the new auto plants chose to be non-union. They can vote everywhere to be nonunion if they choose. Right to work laws have nothing to do with it. The economics of building a plant is far more complicated than that. Most of the new plants are being built in Mexico. South Carolina has captured its share with low cost of living, ports for export, among other things. With wages across the industry about par, I'm sure its possible the unions may disappear but, by democracy, not government legislation.
It is not outsourcing that has caused the huge decline in rural jobs, it is automation. That's why Trump's promises to "bring the jobs back" is nothing more than a hollow promise and yet another example of blaming the wrong culprit. Rather than punishing the rest of the country by electing a sexual predator like Trump, these Carrier workers would do well to take advantage of their company's offer for 4 years of job retraining. The millions of us in urban areas whose jobs were lost due to other realities of a changing world (for me, journalism) -- we weren't nearly so lucky to have that kind of offer.
14
I am sure that Trump is envious of the plutocracy that Putin built. Given that he has his kids on the transition team and managing his "blind business trust" I am sure that he will out Putin Mr. Putin.
Just as with Putin, it will mean that everyone, save for Trump and his inner circle of plutocrats, will be at the losing end of the proposition.
Just as with Putin, it will mean that everyone, save for Trump and his inner circle of plutocrats, will be at the losing end of the proposition.
15
Very many commenters have made the same point: Trump almost certainly can't deliver on his promises. I agree entirely with that.
What nearly all commenters leave out, though, is that HRC didn't offer anything either -- she was realistic, no question, but voters want a candidate at least to offer something. Trump's belated appeal to black voters – "What have you got to lose?" -- may not have worked with black voters, but his appeal to white voters was essentially the same. His supporters didn't see much in the alternative -- HRC -- and so they figured it was time to "roll the dice."
Usually the "house" wins when someone rolls the dice, of course, and that's what I think will happen this time. But the dice-roller usually feels better for having given it a try.
What nearly all commenters leave out, though, is that HRC didn't offer anything either -- she was realistic, no question, but voters want a candidate at least to offer something. Trump's belated appeal to black voters – "What have you got to lose?" -- may not have worked with black voters, but his appeal to white voters was essentially the same. His supporters didn't see much in the alternative -- HRC -- and so they figured it was time to "roll the dice."
Usually the "house" wins when someone rolls the dice, of course, and that's what I think will happen this time. But the dice-roller usually feels better for having given it a try.
5
Only the ignorant gambler who thinks he can beat the house. Same for lottery players and those hoping to win the Publisher's Clearinghouse sweepstakes. Better to invest in retraining....and not through Trump "University".
8
reply to MyThreeCents: Can't have it both ways: offering a lie or reality. These folks accepted the lie.
8
I did not vote for The Donald. Having said that, it seems to me that many of the commentators who state that these manufacturing jobs will not return in fact hope this is the case. Anything rather than DT be successful.
Walk down the aisle of you local whatever store. Find something made in America; you will be hard pressed.
I refuse to believe that the American people and the United States are somehow incapable of manufacturing cell phones and toaster ovens. The playing field must be leveled to restore the manufacturing base destroyed by outsourcing to Asian slave labor.
Walk down the aisle of you local whatever store. Find something made in America; you will be hard pressed.
I refuse to believe that the American people and the United States are somehow incapable of manufacturing cell phones and toaster ovens. The playing field must be leveled to restore the manufacturing base destroyed by outsourcing to Asian slave labor.
6
It's the plutocracy sending those jobs overseas in order to maximize profits. Theirs. Capitalism 101.
9
We can manufacture iPhones in America -- as long as you're willing to pay at least $1000 for one.
9
Stop buying anything not made in America. Start a movement. Convince 300 million people to do the same.
It could work.
It could work.
8
From 2014. SENATE BILL 2569. Bring Jobs Home Act - which was ulitmately filibustered by the Republicans in the Senate - but which sought to:
"(1) grant business taxpayers a tax credit for up to 20% of insourcing expenses incurred for eliminating a business located outside the United States and relocating it within the United States, and (2) deny a tax deduction for outsourcing expenses incurred in relocating a U.S. business outside the United States. Requires an increase in the taxpayer's employment of full-time employees in the United States in order to claim the tax credit for insourcing expenses."
Thank you GOP for encouraging companies to go rather than to stay.
"(1) grant business taxpayers a tax credit for up to 20% of insourcing expenses incurred for eliminating a business located outside the United States and relocating it within the United States, and (2) deny a tax deduction for outsourcing expenses incurred in relocating a U.S. business outside the United States. Requires an increase in the taxpayer's employment of full-time employees in the United States in order to claim the tax credit for insourcing expenses."
Thank you GOP for encouraging companies to go rather than to stay.
34
I'm Dutch and we have a similar populair party (PVV) in Holland, founded by Mr. Wilders. Mr. Wilders is friend with Mr. Trump. We are a bit ahead of you. The PVV was part of the goverment for about 1 year, but didn't like to take responsibility for "inconvenient" decissions, which would show their incapability and defrauding of their electorate. Finaly they left, but managed to leave a mess behind. Still corrupting the frustrated voters with empty words and promises. The others parties which formed a coalition with the PVV were able to end the meaningless cooperation, but America is stuck with a president for 4 years. I sincerly wish you all the best.
29
I am not nor will I ever be a supporter of Donald Trump. I fully endorse Allan Lichtman's assertion that the Republican Congress will impeach Trump within the next year. Then the Republican party will get what it wants: another president not elected by popular vote, controlled by a congress composed of beneficiaries of gerrymandering and free to stock with Supreme Court with a new generation of right wing hacks.
That said: If the jobs are going to leave, it is better that they go to Mexico than China. The development of the economy in Mexico slows or stops migration of their impoverished to the United States.
However, if companies like Carrier want to shut down profitable businesses and move them to other countries, including Mexico, just to make some more money, then the Federal Government could slow this activity considerably as follows: Pass a law that requires Carrier and its cohorts to simply pay the unjustly fired workers their full salaries and benefits for the rest of their working lives. If under those circumstances, the move to Mexico or anywhere else still makes financial sense to the companies involved, then audios amigos. Good luck with your future venture.
Of course, the Federal Government could offer to pay some of all of Carrier’s costs, because gee they don’t want an American Company to be unprofitable. But obviously, that would be corporate welfare. And socialism should only be for the Republican Party and its their pals.
8
I hope the Times will provide these people a copy of this article to help them understand the forces at work. NO ONE GETS A LIFETIME JOB ANYMORE. We need to be flexible, willing to move, train in other areas. Are these people getting job counseling? Carrier should do that immediately.
We might have three or four different types of jobs over our lifetime. My heart bleeds for these people because not only have they lost their jobs but their way of life has died, just like the coal miners.
Education will help.
The Trump reminds me of the advertising men of the 50's and 60's who conned people into buying their products. They said trust me. They used psychology to make people feel inadequate without their products. They treated all women as sexual objects. They made women feel ugly unless they bought their products. We had an excellent show recently called "Madmen". They convinced people that cigarettes would not hurt them. People went into debt buying their version of the American Dream.
The Trump is the epitome of the Madman. The product is himself. Only he can solve the world's problems. Like PT Barnum, he believes a sucker is born every minute.
When we pull the curtain back on The Wizard of Oz, we discover a helpless, directionless, foolish MADMAN who doesn't even know how to solve his own problems. Bankruptcies, over 3,000 lawsuits, including suing a comedian for a joke.
Our problems are serious and this MADMAN cannot help.
We might have three or four different types of jobs over our lifetime. My heart bleeds for these people because not only have they lost their jobs but their way of life has died, just like the coal miners.
Education will help.
The Trump reminds me of the advertising men of the 50's and 60's who conned people into buying their products. They said trust me. They used psychology to make people feel inadequate without their products. They treated all women as sexual objects. They made women feel ugly unless they bought their products. We had an excellent show recently called "Madmen". They convinced people that cigarettes would not hurt them. People went into debt buying their version of the American Dream.
The Trump is the epitome of the Madman. The product is himself. Only he can solve the world's problems. Like PT Barnum, he believes a sucker is born every minute.
When we pull the curtain back on The Wizard of Oz, we discover a helpless, directionless, foolish MADMAN who doesn't even know how to solve his own problems. Bankruptcies, over 3,000 lawsuits, including suing a comedian for a joke.
Our problems are serious and this MADMAN cannot help.
17
Fellow Hoosiers: When Gov. Pence has done nothing to keep Carrier in INdiana, what makes you believe the Trump-Pence team will do so? Pence is heading the transition team and will surround Trump with all the old GOP establishment. He plans for his future, not ours. Don't hold your breath---enroll in all the education and retraining offered.
29
My best wishes Girls! He didn't have a clue what he was saying, then or now. Fortunately, President Obama had him for 1 1/2 hours on Thursday and seemed to have some resonance with him - at least he seemed to figure out that he actually had been elected and probably should start paying attention. Let's hope that President Obama has a lot of more 1 1/2 hours with him so that we don't end up in the depths.
11
So what happens from here? I see two possible paths. Those governing will implement changes that actually attempt to preserve and even create good working class jobs. Or, instead, those governing will forgo trying to address the problem for a scapegoat (some minority group) and\or a distraction (war).
10
Has anyone looked into where the "Make America Great Again" caps were manufactured?
13
Good question!
1
China of course. Nothing with his brand on it is made in the US.
2
Trumps caps - per the LA Times - are made in the USA
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-pol-ca-trump-hats-cali-fame-carson-20...
But It think it would be a great story for the NYT to publish a list of where Trump's stuff (and his family's as well) is manufactured. The USA manufacture of the caps are the exception.
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-pol-ca-trump-hats-cali-fame-carson-20...
But It think it would be a great story for the NYT to publish a list of where Trump's stuff (and his family's as well) is manufactured. The USA manufacture of the caps are the exception.
Yep:
"Even if the factory stays in the US, the jobs will be taken over by robots."
There aren't a whole lot of salespeople out there trying to convince manufacturers to buy production systems that require more workers and increase production costs. Manufacturers are being encourage to do one or both of two things:
1. Move production off-shore.
2. Keep production here in the US, but replace workers with robots wherever possible.
"Even if the factory stays in the US, the jobs will be taken over by robots."
There aren't a whole lot of salespeople out there trying to convince manufacturers to buy production systems that require more workers and increase production costs. Manufacturers are being encourage to do one or both of two things:
1. Move production off-shore.
2. Keep production here in the US, but replace workers with robots wherever possible.
4
Good luck folks. I think you're emotions have miscalculated your actual self-interests. Particularly the auto industry and related workers in Michigan and northern Ohio. The Dems bailed out our auto companies during the crisis. Most Repiblicans wanted to let them go under. And now you've handed over the country to the most conservative generation of Republicans in history. I can't think of a big Trump promise that adds up in the real world. We need a real and realistic agenda for working families...and the only crowd you're gonna find offering that will be the Dems (ever more so, admittedly, since you poked them in the eyes and kicked their you know what. But in four years time your very decent jobs are going to be all the more gone. It's hard to eat emotional rhetoric. Hope that next time these voters will vote with attention to their policy and historical track record.
27
I feel for these people, truly I do, but if they really think Trump is going to help them then I have a bridge ..... Corporations are in business to make money. Period.
Can Trump actually tax Carrier more? Serious question - can that legally be done? Off the top of my head I want to say I don't think so, because then he'd have to tax other companies that have factories outside of the US.
Like others, I would love to be proven wrong. I do not think I will be.
Can Trump actually tax Carrier more? Serious question - can that legally be done? Off the top of my head I want to say I don't think so, because then he'd have to tax other companies that have factories outside of the US.
Like others, I would love to be proven wrong. I do not think I will be.
10
To the women in the pic...why do you two think you are more deserving than the same women in Mexico?
3
Exactly! And I might add, jobs will only return to USA and Canada when the workers in Mexico and China demand all the same environmental, health and wage standards that we enjoy and benefit from. Many years in the future, but it will happen.
2
Huh? As American citizens they have first dibs on everything from their own government, for God's sake. Let the Mexican government look out for its citizens. We should do our part in the world, but that doesn't include impoverishing our own citizens. Why don't Sheldon Adelson and Jamie Dimon and the rest of the obscenely overpaid CEO's and hedge fund managers give up half of their incomes for unemployed Mexican citizens, not some poor worker in Indianapolis.
12
" And I might add, jobs will only return to USA and Canada when the workers in Mexico and China demand all the same environmental, health and wage standards that we enjoy and benefit from. Many years in the future, but it will happen"......
Or, I might add, until workers in the USA and Canada give up those benefits they now enjoy. That, sadly, might not be that far in the future!
Or, I might add, until workers in the USA and Canada give up those benefits they now enjoy. That, sadly, might not be that far in the future!
4
Will Trump make good on his promise to get factory jobs back again? Can society reset itself, time fly backwards? American workers are plenty savvy, they know what era they're living in, know that globalization has its benefits even for them, that automation is the future. Still they went ahead and voted, despite their decency and reservations, for an indecent person trumpeting a hopeless cause. Good luck with that--good luck to us all.
8
Carrier is a unit of United Technologies Corp (UTC). The UTC Political Action Committee has donated to a variety of Dem and Rep candidates, including Paul Ryan, Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer and Kelly Ayotte.
All very interesting. He will likely get a company here and there to delay relocating a plant or two as photo ops.
All very interesting. He will likely get a company here and there to delay relocating a plant or two as photo ops.
8
Thank you, President Obama for saving our economy with no thanks to the Republicans for getting us into this mess in the first place. These people are crazy if they think tariffs and undoing free trade agreements will bring their jobs back thoug.
18
Not only have these voters voted against their own interests, they have voted against progress. In fact the GOP will use their so called political capital to advance their agenda to get rid of programs they have wanted to abolish since their inception; Medicare, medicaid, SS and any other programs that offers a safety net for those in need. Obamacare will be the first to go...ER rooms get ready for the deluge of uninsured patients! Ryan has already started his plan proposing vouchers for seniors to replace Medicare. How can a party that professes to be the party of values and "Christian oriented" act so negatively to those in need?
24
Don't blame the President; blame yourselves. The world changes all the time. Those who adapt, survive. Those who do not adapt get left behind. This is how it has always been, and this is how it will always be.
If this is unacceptable, then the type of society you desire is a socialist one; ironically the exact term that is universally denounced by the party that just took control of all the branches of government.
If this is unacceptable, then the type of society you desire is a socialist one; ironically the exact term that is universally denounced by the party that just took control of all the branches of government.
13
"If this is unacceptable, then the type of society you desire is a socialist one"
Socialism! Endorsed by scientific genius Albert Einstein!
http://userctl.com/BlueVsRed/036.png
Socialism! Endorsed by Star Fleet Science Officer Spock!
http://userctl.com/BlueVsRed/009.png
Socialism is the future, too bad far too many Americans like to live in the past.
http://userctl.com/BlueVsRed/061.png
It will eventually happen, but thanks to Hillary Clinton it looks like it will be later rather than sooner.
And to think we could have had Bernie Sanders as President.
Thanks Debbie Wasserman Schultz and the DNC!
Donald Trump should really give DWS and the DNC a big tip for everything they did to ensure his election.
Too bad "The Donald" will probably stiff them out of their well-deserved tip too!
Socialism! Endorsed by scientific genius Albert Einstein!
http://userctl.com/BlueVsRed/036.png
Socialism! Endorsed by Star Fleet Science Officer Spock!
http://userctl.com/BlueVsRed/009.png
Socialism is the future, too bad far too many Americans like to live in the past.
http://userctl.com/BlueVsRed/061.png
It will eventually happen, but thanks to Hillary Clinton it looks like it will be later rather than sooner.
And to think we could have had Bernie Sanders as President.
Thanks Debbie Wasserman Schultz and the DNC!
Donald Trump should really give DWS and the DNC a big tip for everything they did to ensure his election.
Too bad "The Donald" will probably stiff them out of their well-deserved tip too!
Carrier workers, you've been had.
16
The snark emanating from the left-wing intelligentsia is damnable. This say it all, and is why Trump won:
"The Carrier plant here is plenty profitable. But moving to Monterrey, where workers earn in a day what they make here in an hour, will increase profits faster."
And who benefits? The 1%. This "globalization" is nothing more than pilfering off the backs of third-world citizens. Guess who loses? First world citizens who shall be cast into the poorhouse for the benefit of corporate masters.
But I digress. Just "retrain" all 1400 employees to fix the robots. RIGHT.
Give me a break.
"The Carrier plant here is plenty profitable. But moving to Monterrey, where workers earn in a day what they make here in an hour, will increase profits faster."
And who benefits? The 1%. This "globalization" is nothing more than pilfering off the backs of third-world citizens. Guess who loses? First world citizens who shall be cast into the poorhouse for the benefit of corporate masters.
But I digress. Just "retrain" all 1400 employees to fix the robots. RIGHT.
Give me a break.
10
^ Editor, this comment deserves the 'NYT Pick'.
It's taking middle class paychecks out of their pockets and transferring them to the rich, minus a little bit they return in reduced costs.
4
The fact that you trust a man, who has made a career of ripping off small business owners to increase his profits just like Carrier, is laughable. At least Carrier honors their contracts. Additionally, I can't believe you have the chutzpah to sneer at liberals and moderates when most of the 1% in this country are Republicans, who are on the side of big business through deregulation, lower taxes for corporations, etc.
6
Talking about exporting jobs...the way things go we could see the countries around the world welcoming American refugees in record numbers.
7
There are a lot of Americans living in the Twilight Zone. They say they will "vote the other way" next time? Next time will be too late for a lot of things, including higher wages, campaign finance reform, and the Supreme Court.
24
And climate change.
2
The media has a tremendous responsibility. If only because it have such great power to influence people. They could have stopped Trump in his tracks a long time ago. They could have torn him down. But they didn't. They wanted to profit off of the circus. They thought they could build him up and make money along the way and then tear him down and make money along the way. They wanted to make money and make money they did.
It's like the stock market. Like how some people make money on the way up and they make money on the way down. They didn't fathom that Trump could actually be a possibility. They tried desperately towards the end to bring him down. And they were sort of succeeding. It was a mad race to tear him down and they thought they could do it. Except they didn't expect to be broadsided by some Comey fella. Trump rightly said the media is dishonest.
It's like the stock market. Like how some people make money on the way up and they make money on the way down. They didn't fathom that Trump could actually be a possibility. They tried desperately towards the end to bring him down. And they were sort of succeeding. It was a mad race to tear him down and they thought they could do it. Except they didn't expect to be broadsided by some Comey fella. Trump rightly said the media is dishonest.
10
While not alone in their complicity, it was the Republican Party that stood by, and gave tacit approval, while their biggest donors outsourced American jobs at the expense of American employees. The GOP leadership is already trying to hedge on Trump's campaign promises as is Carrier. They are the real barrier to saving these jobs.
10
GOP tax cuts are all about decoupling both the wealthy owners of corporations and the corporations themselves from the society in which their wealth was originally founded so they do not have to pay for the consequences of their actions.
The ultimate destination for an unconstrained capitalist system where human labour is devalued by outsourcing jobs to cheaper foreign countries or through the use of robotics and artificial intelligence may well be discontent and anarchy.
We need smart well-educated politicians, businesses with a social and environmental conscience, engagement from academia, intelligent and informed civic debate and responsible fact-based journalism to address this challenge.
And let's not forget to deal with the BIGGEST issue right now, THE CLIMATE CHANGE CRISIS. The steps we need to take there can help create real new jobs.
The ultimate destination for an unconstrained capitalist system where human labour is devalued by outsourcing jobs to cheaper foreign countries or through the use of robotics and artificial intelligence may well be discontent and anarchy.
We need smart well-educated politicians, businesses with a social and environmental conscience, engagement from academia, intelligent and informed civic debate and responsible fact-based journalism to address this challenge.
And let's not forget to deal with the BIGGEST issue right now, THE CLIMATE CHANGE CRISIS. The steps we need to take there can help create real new jobs.
5
I feel terrible for these poor people. Not only are they losing their jobs and their way of life, but many of them were suckered into voting for the most dishonest politician this country has produced in my lifetime, and I'm 70. I would be shocked if Trump delivers on any of his promises. I wonder if he even remembers them.
23
$55,000 a year with overtime for someone with no secondary education or special training is, unfortunately, a high salary. I say unfortunately because I know that $55,000 per year doesn't buy a lot, no matter where you live in this country. But when I saw that number I thought of my son-in-law, who worked for five years to earn a PhD only to discover that his starting salary, 5 years ago as a professor at a University in VA, where the cost of living is extremely high, was $56,000 per year. One of my sons is a paramedic here in Dallas, and the average salary for paramedics in Texas is just over $38,000 per year. I know there are people making lots of money (the real estate section of the NYTimes regularly features homes that cost more than a million dollars), but most of us are barely getting by, no matter how much education we have. Something's got to change.
88
No, $55k is a solid, decent family wage. US manufacturing has always paid a solid middle class family income and that is why we must fight to preserve these jobs and elect officials who will do so also. If you do more research you'll find that manufacturing pays much better than many or most "educated" white collar jobs, and it requires much more specialized skills and expertise than most realize. Europe realizes this which is why they don't have free trade agreements with third world countries and why they cherish manufacturing jobs. Open your minds people!
2
"Europe realizes this which is why they don't have free trade agreements with third world countries and why they cherish manufacturing jobs"
Please quit spreading falsehoods Tom:
http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/agreements/
"If you do more research you'll find that manufacturing pays much better than many or most "educated" white collar jobs, and it requires much more specialized skills and expertise than most realize."
Yeah, I guess those poor dark-skinned kids sewing clothes for Americans in foreign sweatshops are "educated" and have a lot of "specialized skills and expertise".
"Open your minds people!"
We will if you do first. Posting assertions that are provably false only makes you look ignorant.
Please quit spreading falsehoods Tom:
http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/agreements/
"If you do more research you'll find that manufacturing pays much better than many or most "educated" white collar jobs, and it requires much more specialized skills and expertise than most realize."
Yeah, I guess those poor dark-skinned kids sewing clothes for Americans in foreign sweatshops are "educated" and have a lot of "specialized skills and expertise".
"Open your minds people!"
We will if you do first. Posting assertions that are provably false only makes you look ignorant.
reply to Judi Hume: That $55,000 comes with a lot of overtime- and isn't grand-theft money. Thirty years ago, many high school educated men and women worked for companies like Armstrong Rubber (then Pirelli Tire) building tires and earning about fifty thousand dollars annually. Many Vietnam veterans went to work in the airline industry (many with only a high school diploma) earning forty and fifty thousand dollars as Ramp Service Personnel. These were great Union jobs. Others worked for Boeing, Lockheed and McDonnell Douglass. All in places like Missouri, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, California. So- no. Fifty thousand dollars isn't an extravagant salary for skilled labor- which all of these jobs are, and were.
1
"It is criminal that Democrats could have lost these voters to Republicans."
"Criminal" is a pretty strong word, but "unnecessary" would work too.
One solution for the Democrats might be to come up with a candidate who manages to speak at a rally attended by many out-of-work coal miners and their families without saying something like:
"We're going to put a lot of coal mining companies and coal miners out of business -- right, Tim?"
HRC acknowledged that she falls far short of Barrack Obama and Bill Clinton in the "political skills" department. But a candidate doesn't need much "political skill" to figure out that such statements are not likely to win the hearts and minds of an audience like that. HRC may THINK that, but it was not a good idea for her to SAY it.
"Criminal" is a pretty strong word, but "unnecessary" would work too.
One solution for the Democrats might be to come up with a candidate who manages to speak at a rally attended by many out-of-work coal miners and their families without saying something like:
"We're going to put a lot of coal mining companies and coal miners out of business -- right, Tim?"
HRC acknowledged that she falls far short of Barrack Obama and Bill Clinton in the "political skills" department. But a candidate doesn't need much "political skill" to figure out that such statements are not likely to win the hearts and minds of an audience like that. HRC may THINK that, but it was not a good idea for her to SAY it.
2
"They fire 50 year olds at at very fast clip and have no intention to stop."
Personally I don't need to worry about this, but several relatives and friends do. As most laid-off older workers will confirm, age discrimination is the norm. Passing laws against it won't help much -- company reps know enough not to say "We're not going to hire you because you're too old."
But that's what happens (or, more accurately, doesn't): older people don't get hired. Most of them end up either with no job at all, or they're flipping burgers at McDonald's. And many older workers still on the job worry that they might be next.
I don't know what the solution is, or whether there even is a solution. But there's no question in my mind that age discrimination is the norm in hiring these days.
Personally I don't need to worry about this, but several relatives and friends do. As most laid-off older workers will confirm, age discrimination is the norm. Passing laws against it won't help much -- company reps know enough not to say "We're not going to hire you because you're too old."
But that's what happens (or, more accurately, doesn't): older people don't get hired. Most of them end up either with no job at all, or they're flipping burgers at McDonald's. And many older workers still on the job worry that they might be next.
I don't know what the solution is, or whether there even is a solution. But there's no question in my mind that age discrimination is the norm in hiring these days.
6
This article is one of the best arguments for a nationwide guaranteed minimum income that I have read lately.
44
Milton Friedman would agree with you
3
I was thinking the EXACT same thing.
1
Agreed. If we can't stop automation, we can still soften the blow. Maybe everyone can receive a basic income that acts as a large supplement -- not enough alone to survive on, but enough to cover most of the basics.
2
"Chinese factory-cities give even robots a run for the money."
Incidentally, though "China" is often used to symbolize low-cost foreign labor, China is far from the "low-cost producer" these days. Certainly lower than the US, but several other Asian countries have even lower wages.
Incidentally, though "China" is often used to symbolize low-cost foreign labor, China is far from the "low-cost producer" these days. Certainly lower than the US, but several other Asian countries have even lower wages.
3
The only hope is that these poor folks and the rest of the conned will realize their mistake before the Electoral College meets. I envision a forthcoming strategy where party grown ups could be persuaded to offer a Romney / Biden ticket (say, or other bipartisan combination of competent people) with agreements to alternate Supreme Court appointments, etc. We need to begin to persuade sensible, patriotic electors to act in the Country's interest and conduct a process until an agreeable compromise solution is found.
Otherwise, we simply risk awaiting the impulsive error that no one seriously thins we can get through 4 years without.
Otherwise, we simply risk awaiting the impulsive error that no one seriously thins we can get through 4 years without.
2
Folks please see what is really going on here. The white nationalist movement is threatening our democracy. They funded Trump's campaign and ran it. They are using the same techniques other dictators use. Take a legitimate grievance, job loss, and use it to threaten democratic institutions. Go after immigrants, latinos,
gays, african-americans, women, judges, courts, media, libel laws, newspapers, reporters, the supeme court, congress, the military. Trump's campaign funder is a billionaire who is funding breitbart news and other groups and used his funds in this election to also go after other democratic seats in congress.
This movement threatens our democracy and our national security by telling you democracy is to blame for your anger. By telling you, he alone can fix these problems.
Please fight back against the coming attempts to get rid of the laws, institutions
and treaties that protect us and our country.
gays, african-americans, women, judges, courts, media, libel laws, newspapers, reporters, the supeme court, congress, the military. Trump's campaign funder is a billionaire who is funding breitbart news and other groups and used his funds in this election to also go after other democratic seats in congress.
This movement threatens our democracy and our national security by telling you democracy is to blame for your anger. By telling you, he alone can fix these problems.
Please fight back against the coming attempts to get rid of the laws, institutions
and treaties that protect us and our country.
16
Time for Mr. Trump to put his metaphorical money where his incredibly big mouth is.
5
“I was tired of corruption and lies in Washington,” he said. “I just wanted a nonpolitician like Trump.”
So, trade a corrupt liar with experience, world respect, and necessary stability for a far more corrupt, far bigger liar with none of the above? Uh huh, that should work.
So, trade a corrupt liar with experience, world respect, and necessary stability for a far more corrupt, far bigger liar with none of the above? Uh huh, that should work.
11
What, if anything, did Mike Pence do about this impending calamity when he was Governor of Indiana?
139
Speaking of Pence being Governor of Indiana, I've long been puzzled at how he and most other Presidential candidates are governors, Senators, or House members -- in other words, they have full-time day jobs -- and yet they all manage to find about 16 free hours every day to campaign, all the while collecting their paychecks while their staffs actually perform their jobs. I guess it doesn't take much time or effort to be a governor or Senator or House member.
11
I think Indiana just attracted several more plum foreign auto manufacturing plants and their suppliers, and Subaru announced its shifting all of its Impreza production to its large and successful Indiana plant where it makes many other models as well.
2
He supported a law requiring funerals for fetuses.
1
"These rust belt states have had their economies and towns hollowed out by free trade."
I remember Ross Perot's "giant sucking sound" comment -- his prediction that NAFTA would induce US companies to shift production to Mexico.
Most pundits laughed at Perot, and he plunged from 62% in the polls to far below Bill Clinton and George H.W. Bush. I remember thinking, though, that he was merely stating the obvious: of course that's what would happen, and did.
Trade deals are good for US consumers, who end up paying lower prices for goods produced in low-wage countries. For the same reason, trade deals aren't so good for workers in high-wage countries (the US, for example). Most US workers are both workers and consumers, of course, and so trade deals are "mixed" for many (though not, of course, for workers whose jobs are shipped to Mexico, since they may end up with no money to "consume").
Trade-deal proponents inevitably argue that eliminating tariffs will benefit US manufacturers because they'll be able to sell US-made products in, say, Mexico or China. But please -- how many US-made products are sold in Mexico or China?
Unfortunately, the alternative to free trade is tariffs. Tariffs can slow down the inevitable, by barring or limiting foreign competition. But tariffs can't change the fact that foreign manufacturing labor is cheaper than US manufacturing labor. Protecting US manufacturing may work short-term, but it punishes US consumers and merely delays the inevitable.
I remember Ross Perot's "giant sucking sound" comment -- his prediction that NAFTA would induce US companies to shift production to Mexico.
Most pundits laughed at Perot, and he plunged from 62% in the polls to far below Bill Clinton and George H.W. Bush. I remember thinking, though, that he was merely stating the obvious: of course that's what would happen, and did.
Trade deals are good for US consumers, who end up paying lower prices for goods produced in low-wage countries. For the same reason, trade deals aren't so good for workers in high-wage countries (the US, for example). Most US workers are both workers and consumers, of course, and so trade deals are "mixed" for many (though not, of course, for workers whose jobs are shipped to Mexico, since they may end up with no money to "consume").
Trade-deal proponents inevitably argue that eliminating tariffs will benefit US manufacturers because they'll be able to sell US-made products in, say, Mexico or China. But please -- how many US-made products are sold in Mexico or China?
Unfortunately, the alternative to free trade is tariffs. Tariffs can slow down the inevitable, by barring or limiting foreign competition. But tariffs can't change the fact that foreign manufacturing labor is cheaper than US manufacturing labor. Protecting US manufacturing may work short-term, but it punishes US consumers and merely delays the inevitable.
5
Why don't these people read a bit about global economy and hopefully understand that what works best for them would be to enter a service economy, and prepare themselves for that?
5
Give me a break. So "these people" should just throw in the towel and agree to go to the service economy, i.e., waiters, bartenders, gardeners for the 1%. Maybe I should have voted for Trump, after all. You're not a member of the DNC, are you?
7
Immigrant, with a Masters Ph.D. in electrical engineering from a top school here. When I said service - I am generally referring to anything that is not hard manufacturing - for example - banking, software programming, health care (medical assistant, dental assistant). Because the hardcore manufacturing jobs are not going to come back.
8
Harry: With all due respect have you checked in at the local 7-11 lately? Seriously, there are many, many people who can't go back to school, somehow get retrained and then enter some very cerebral occupation. They're very good, intelligent people, but they're not academically inclined.
3
Trump is more fond of firing people than saving jobs. Just remember "you're fired" when you get you're last paycheck and think about the man who's policies will gut your schools, pollute your water and cost you a chance to get health insurance. To those unfortunate people at the Carrier factory remember this and look in the mirror this and accept the responsibility for the part you played in this the Monday after you're fired.
13
He is a business man first, and bought his own steel and aluminum for his buildings overseas. Anyone who beliefves he will bring back heavy industry probably shouldn't be voting. Those jobs have been gone or going since before Ronald Reagan promised to bring them back in 1980. Better to find someone forward looking who would look into new industry, new tech and new ideas, rather than the failed ideas for 40 years ago.
17
In reading the many comments, I detect a subtle but unmistakable undercurrent of hope that Mr. Trump will fail in accomplishing his stated objectives.
The day after President Obama was elected , Rush Limbaugh said "I hope he fails". Those hoping for Mr. Trump's failure are no different from Mr. Limbaugh and follow the same moral compass. How quickly we adopt practices which only last week we condemned, now that it suits us to do so. Let's at least not be hypocrites. We really don't care about principle; we only care about which side we are on.
The day after President Obama was elected , Rush Limbaugh said "I hope he fails". Those hoping for Mr. Trump's failure are no different from Mr. Limbaugh and follow the same moral compass. How quickly we adopt practices which only last week we condemned, now that it suits us to do so. Let's at least not be hypocrites. We really don't care about principle; we only care about which side we are on.
5
I don't hope Trump fails. I DO hope he doesn't blow us up. I DO hope he doesn't decimate the environment. I DO hope he treats everyone - women, people of color, immigrants and the disabled with the respect and fairness that so far has been lacking. I DO care about principle - but as Trump has consistently shown throughout his years in real estate and media and his personal life - he does not.
18
Hah, keep his promises! Good luck with that.
Sorry people, you got conned by the flim-flam man. The jobs are not coming back. Trump, nobody can bring them back. This is free market economics in a 21st century world economy -- the guys at the top make more money if the factory goes south. So, it goes south. Can't change that.
The other side of it is the automation of your job. Your jobs are being replaced by robotics. Once again, the guys at the top make more money if a robot is doing your job. Can't change that either.
The only thing we could have done, to begin to seriously address these two issues, was to elect someone that was more likely to put some money toward retraining and innovation for new 21st century industries like wind & solar power and the like... You didn't vote that way, though. You voted for Trump. So, now you'll suffer for at least four more years.
Hopefully by the mid-terms you'll figure it out. Probably not.
Sorry people, you got conned by the flim-flam man. The jobs are not coming back. Trump, nobody can bring them back. This is free market economics in a 21st century world economy -- the guys at the top make more money if the factory goes south. So, it goes south. Can't change that.
The other side of it is the automation of your job. Your jobs are being replaced by robotics. Once again, the guys at the top make more money if a robot is doing your job. Can't change that either.
The only thing we could have done, to begin to seriously address these two issues, was to elect someone that was more likely to put some money toward retraining and innovation for new 21st century industries like wind & solar power and the like... You didn't vote that way, though. You voted for Trump. So, now you'll suffer for at least four more years.
Hopefully by the mid-terms you'll figure it out. Probably not.
16
Not a chance.
2
Ohhh, he will save everything... If global warming happens to be true... He will take all the ice from the Trump hotels and put them on top of the melting caps He'll be so good, so good to global warming.. That he would make CO2 pay for it....
11
When Bill Clinton came to a Ford assembly plant in Edison NJ while president, he said the plant would not move. Well it's gone along with those good paying jobs. Unless Trump buys the Carrier plant it too will be gone. Trump supporters will be bamboozled once again by market forces that the conservatives love. When will they learn that the president can't order a company to do anything until we become a dictatorship. That is on the way thanks to Trump supporters.
9
I feel for these people and understand their plight. But the lifeline they sought with Trump - and the Republicans who are now lining up behind him now that he won (kinda) - is no such thing: No Lifeline! Until the next election, I suggest that they grab whatever re-training and other educational offers come their way.
Like many others have commented here, they bought his bait and now will pay the price of reality - real reality not realityTV. But so will all the rest of us.
Like many others have commented here, they bought his bait and now will pay the price of reality - real reality not realityTV. But so will all the rest of us.
9
Implementing a Trade war will increase black market activities, cash transactions completely out of the system.
Carrier Top management needs to make money, Trump needs to create Jobs, increasing the cost for Carrier will cause Carrier to go out of business; this is not an answer that can be answered in 2 minutes; we need to adapt to what is coming, learn from the past, but move forward all the time.
Carrier Top management needs to make money, Trump needs to create Jobs, increasing the cost for Carrier will cause Carrier to go out of business; this is not an answer that can be answered in 2 minutes; we need to adapt to what is coming, learn from the past, but move forward all the time.
2
When your job and your entire livelihood is at stake, and your candidate pledges to fix it, you become a single issue voter. This makes complete sense. This article provides great insight into the struggling middle class and their battle for good jobs. I wish them well, but I seriously doubt that Trump the billionaire is going to side with the workers over their CEO. This will be a great litmus test for Trump.
46
Why would you expect a man who lied his way through the election to actually honor any promises he made along the way? Those of you who voted for him will now suffer the consequences of your choice. Unfortunately we all will be dragged along down that hole including our children and their children.
8
Not going to happen, I feel sorry for these people who felt they had no choice but to vote for the con artist Trump.
4
Good luck with that
4
Sending the well payed jobs to Mexico would be fine, if we could also pay the mortgage in pesos. I'm happy to buy a less expensive air conditioner, but that won't save enough money to keep an American roof over our heads.
After these poor folks are laid the GOP will give them their second sucker punch by eliminating any chance they can get health care
11
I am sure the Republicans in Congress and the President-Elect will view the plight of these people as the "tough love" they need to learn to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.
10
Donald Trump doesn't make anything in this country, and he doesn't care a bit about these workers. Now they're going to find out the hard way that he used them.
11
I will forever be amazed that the people that are screaming for Trump and all the wonderful things he is supposed to do for them can't see past the end of their nose. Number one we're talking about Republicans here and Reaganomics does not work no matter what you call it or how you present it. They never had any intention of giving the voters any help. their first items to act on are to cut taxes for the wealthy so they can create more jobs(for China). They figured out how to dupe their base into FIGHTING for the chance to Make America Great Again. Coal ain't coming back and it's not Bush or Obama's fault its the world economy and the new found glut of Gas and Oil deposits. And yes the Republicans could have redirected some of the budget to retraining miners and outdated manufacturing employees to be ready for the 20 year needed rebuild of our infrastructure and Conversions to Solar and wind and the cleanup of all the mines and drilling sites to stop the pollution of our precious water. They don't know how to control that for a profit themselves so their plan is to take us back economically and socially to the 50's and 60's and introduce religion into their laws and use the militarized police and the pay for play prisons that they've built everywhere. What evil minds to even think all this up instead of making the world better for all of us.
13
I do believe that if Donald Trump could save a few dollars, he would send his hotel & casino jobs to Mexico or China. But it would be hard to clean a toilet or vacuum a hotel room from that distance.
4
Holding to Bernie Sanders' optimism - support President-Elect Trump for what he can do that works, including some remedy on jobs, and holding his feet to the fire for what is abhorrent. People are in pain and that is why they voted for Trump, and the DNC chose to ignore it. The top brass needs to go from the DNC, to make way for real progressives not voting based on the corporate dime. As for Mrs. Clinton casting blame, she needs to look in the mirror.
5
I almost feel sorry for these people, but this is what happens when people don't do their research. If they had reviewed the Democratic party's platform (with a lot of input from progressives such as Bernie and Liz Warren), they would see that there would be money for retraining and education (especially in the fields of technology and renewable energy), free community college education (go back & get a certificate in something useful) and that that money would come from increasing taxes on the wealthy and raising corporate taxes.
Carrier is not going to stay just because Trump threatens them and other companies will not be coming back. It's all about the bottom line and the CEOs and republicans do not care about the workers; they are merely a means to an end (bigger profits). Even if a manufacturer does come back, the jobs won't come back with it; they will come back because the technology and robotics makes it cheaper for them to return, not human capital.
So these people have been royally duped by a con man who played on their worse fears. Unfortunately, they have taken the rest of us down with them in their ignorance.
Carrier is not going to stay just because Trump threatens them and other companies will not be coming back. It's all about the bottom line and the CEOs and republicans do not care about the workers; they are merely a means to an end (bigger profits). Even if a manufacturer does come back, the jobs won't come back with it; they will come back because the technology and robotics makes it cheaper for them to return, not human capital.
So these people have been royally duped by a con man who played on their worse fears. Unfortunately, they have taken the rest of us down with them in their ignorance.
11
Even if the factory stays in the US, the jobs will be taken over by robots. I love that these factory workers believe in capitalism (as I and most Americans do), but don't want to accept the bad things that come from capitalism. The key to staying employed is for all workers to evolve with the economy. For whatever reason, most of these workers did not pursue higher education, they don't want to move, and they think Mexico or China has crashed our economy. You may not want to be part of a global economy, but we all are.
48
No, not necessarily because its already a very sophisticated MIXED human and robot production picture out there on the assembly lines these days. Its NOT all or nothing, and many production engineers will tell you its not going to be all robots either. today's manufacturing worker is highly skilled with great analytical skills.
The core problem that keeps us mired in this anemic economy is that our leaders cannot tell us the truth if they want to be elected . We could never expect truth telling from a huckster like Trump . But HRC could have done us a solid by telling the workers at Carrier and millions of others like them that their hay days are in the past , and that a high school - educated person making $ 20 or more per hour can no longer expect to have a secure job . She should have leveled with us that those jobs are never coming back unless we as a country retreat into our isolationist past , which is not an option given the way the world's countries are now inter-connected .
Had she given us the straight dope instead of the usual , cheery , blah - blah spin about somehow " creating new jobs " , she would have surely lost even worse than she did .
We need a president who sacrifices the chance of reelection ( unlike Obama ) by telling it like it is . Maybe our last hope is to have such a leader and a Congress which will make a college education compulsory just as military service is in some countries .
The success of Trump demonstrates how desperate our situation has become . He will fail , of course , and come 2020 we will be in much worse shape than we are now . We cannot keep going to war to pull our economy out of a slump . The only path forward is to smarten up . We have become a nation dragged down by too many ( often lazy ) under - educated folks with unrealistic expectations .
Had she given us the straight dope instead of the usual , cheery , blah - blah spin about somehow " creating new jobs " , she would have surely lost even worse than she did .
We need a president who sacrifices the chance of reelection ( unlike Obama ) by telling it like it is . Maybe our last hope is to have such a leader and a Congress which will make a college education compulsory just as military service is in some countries .
The success of Trump demonstrates how desperate our situation has become . He will fail , of course , and come 2020 we will be in much worse shape than we are now . We cannot keep going to war to pull our economy out of a slump . The only path forward is to smarten up . We have become a nation dragged down by too many ( often lazy ) under - educated folks with unrealistic expectations .
7
"Had she given us the straight dope instead of the usual , cheery , blah - blah spin about somehow " creating new jobs " , she would have surely lost even worse than she did ."
No had she spoken the truth she could have won going away.
By sticking to the issues people would not have paid attention to Hillary's "flaws".
http://userctl.com/BlueVsRed/076.gif
By sticking to the issues she and her followers could have avoided personally attacking Trump as "Hitler" and "Mussolini" and his supporters as "deplorables", causing Trump's supporters to further circle the wagons.
By sticking to the issues had Hillary lost she could have ensured that the cause was indeed racism by White Americans and not a backlash due to economic issues affecting ordinary White Americans.
By telling the truth Hillary could have kept pointing out all of Donald Trump's lies as they were uttered. It is hard to call out your opponent as a liar when you are almost as big a liar.
Personal responsibilty?
Harry S Truman: "The Buck Stops Here"
Hillary R Clinton: "It was James Comey's fault"
Had Hillary Clinton acted heroically she could have won going away.
Check that, had HRC acted heroically she would have stepped aside and let another Democrat defeat Trump and retake the Senate from the GOP.
Sadly Hillary Clinton will be remembered by history for her hubris and not for her heroism.
http://userctl.com/BlueVsRed/071.png
No had she spoken the truth she could have won going away.
By sticking to the issues people would not have paid attention to Hillary's "flaws".
http://userctl.com/BlueVsRed/076.gif
By sticking to the issues she and her followers could have avoided personally attacking Trump as "Hitler" and "Mussolini" and his supporters as "deplorables", causing Trump's supporters to further circle the wagons.
By sticking to the issues had Hillary lost she could have ensured that the cause was indeed racism by White Americans and not a backlash due to economic issues affecting ordinary White Americans.
By telling the truth Hillary could have kept pointing out all of Donald Trump's lies as they were uttered. It is hard to call out your opponent as a liar when you are almost as big a liar.
Personal responsibilty?
Harry S Truman: "The Buck Stops Here"
Hillary R Clinton: "It was James Comey's fault"
Had Hillary Clinton acted heroically she could have won going away.
Check that, had HRC acted heroically she would have stepped aside and let another Democrat defeat Trump and retake the Senate from the GOP.
Sadly Hillary Clinton will be remembered by history for her hubris and not for her heroism.
http://userctl.com/BlueVsRed/071.png
Compulsory college education? As an educator I can't imagine this succeeding. Compulsory training in a field after high school if you are not attending university so you have a chance at a decent living? That would help.
1
I hope he does save their jobs or has a viable alternative - but if he does it had better be a cast iron plan for the next and the next and the next ad infinitum. It can't just be a PR stunt at the cost of tax-payers.
But, I doubt he can. Re-training sounds like a good plan but are there jobs available after re-training. Someone has got to start planning for the future and fast.
But, I doubt he can. Re-training sounds like a good plan but are there jobs available after re-training. Someone has got to start planning for the future and fast.
3
I hope their jobs can be saved but I guarantee Trump can't do it.
3
Where was this kind of reporting pre-election, NYT? I hope you are learning your lesson to cover all perspectives and experiences, not just the ones that fit the ideologies of your liberal elitist readers.
5
It amazed me that Clinton didn't tell a story that chronicled all the things that Obama tried to get through that would have helped Trump voters, had the Republicans not blocked it. Things like an increased minimum wage, infrastructure projects, stronger consumer protection, etc. Her message should have concentrated on what change would look like if they voted for her AND a Democratic downticket. That would have drained the swamp.
Yet again, the Trumpsters voted for a Republican Congress that has repeatedly duped them into voting against their own self interests. Now that they don't have a black President as the strawman responsible for all governmental failings it will be fun to see the Republican party of NO actually have to try to govern. The Trumpsters will not look kindly upon Republican if/when they don't deliver.
Yet again, the Trumpsters voted for a Republican Congress that has repeatedly duped them into voting against their own self interests. Now that they don't have a black President as the strawman responsible for all governmental failings it will be fun to see the Republican party of NO actually have to try to govern. The Trumpsters will not look kindly upon Republican if/when they don't deliver.
9
Pipe dreams. Tax cuts might create jobs, but the economic cycle is overdue for a recession.
2
Mexico will build a Wall before we do. They have all the jobs.
6
I dearly hope they are correct in thinking Trump will bring back jobs. The problem is we are going more service oriented every year. The kind of jobs they are looking for will never come back because of economics. Robots, automated machinery are expanding in numbers every year. The best thing our government could do is spend a lot of money on job training. The return on investment could be enormous.
5
These workers weren't fooled. Nobody was hiding the truth. Maybe they were hypnotized. If they want to know what is going to happen to their community now they need just look at Atlantic City NJ (now in receivership). He can't stop Carrier from going across but he can blockade their product from entering the U.S. and stick with American manufactures such as....Oh that is a problem isn't it. Soon enough we will be begging for their products and we will give them every incentive they demand to sell to us. And soon enough this sample of humanity will be asking themselves, "What did we do?" That wall is a two-way thing.
29
a tarriff on Carrier products from Mexico will beget tariffs on US products going to Mexico, and then retaliatory tariffs on more Mexican products. Otherwise known as a trade war. Trade is good; it generates wealth. Our MISTAKE was in allowing all of that wealth to flow to a tiny few. Spread it through the economy through public and private investment (shaped by public policy) and everyone would continue to support trade.
Unfortunately choosing another candidate in 2020 will not make up for the damage done over the next four years thanks to their vote for the most successful conman in history.
8
And yet they left the republicans in Congress who made sure that Obama couldn't fix their economy.
9
I think The Donald has won himself a pyrolytic victory. Stoking up nihilism is playing with matches in a powder magazine.
4
Trump was elected President, not king.
3
He promised you, didn't he? Like he promised all the vendors that he stiffed in past years, all the little people he swindled out of money. The really sad, sad thing was you believed him when all the information of what a morally bankrupt person he is was right out there. Perhaps a bit more education on critical thinking will be helpful rather than relying on pre-digested rot from Faux News.
12
Shouldn't be a problem- there will be jobs aplenty building that wall.
1
I believe Congress will do the real damage. They are ready to undo all the Obama initiatives. There will be no jobs bill ,only tax cuts, defunding the EPA and the IRS, etc. Trump is the empty suit who will go along.
Sad to say, these angry folks have been duped.
Hillary may have been able to help them but they could not get past the lies and hate.
Sad to say, these angry folks have been duped.
Hillary may have been able to help them but they could not get past the lies and hate.
6
Please, stop trying claim that these stories are evidence that Trump supporters are NOT ignorant bigots, racists and sexists. The central premise of this argument is that if you happen to have lost your job that you somehow magically get to wash your hands of the bigotry that you associate yourself with.
That's nonsense. Take a look at the world - there are a lot of people who have it much worse than you and nobody is excusing their hatred of others. So, shut up and own it. If you voted for Trump you are indeed a racist.
It isn't the mexicans, muslims or political correctness that lost you your jobs. Its your own lack of education and sense of entitlement.
That's nonsense. Take a look at the world - there are a lot of people who have it much worse than you and nobody is excusing their hatred of others. So, shut up and own it. If you voted for Trump you are indeed a racist.
It isn't the mexicans, muslims or political correctness that lost you your jobs. Its your own lack of education and sense of entitlement.
9
These workers will be sadly disappointed twice: When Carrier moves; and when Trump does nothing about it. I anticipate confusion, grief and buyer's remorse from this work force.
4
We all want our jobs to stay in the U.S. but we also want our retirement accounts, which are invested in companies like United Technologies, to appreciate quickly, which happens when those companies move jobs to Mexico and China. And when we go shopping, we want to pay next to nothing for everything, which means all that stuff has to be made in Cambodia or Malaysia.
We all want our jobs to stay in the U.S., and for everyone else's to be moved to the third world.
We all want our jobs to stay in the U.S., and for everyone else's to be moved to the third world.
82
What have these people in the Rust Belt, Manufacturing, and Factories been thinking for the last 30 years? I'm African American, and I can remember my (grand)parents telling me before I graduated from high school in 1990 that you have to go to college (further your education) in order to survive in the upcoming years. Their favorite thing to say to me was that "In a few years, you'll only be able to get a job pumping gas with just a high school diploma."
Why didn't these people get the same message? Was it their elders, local, regional, state, or national leaders that failed to prepare them for this reality? If it was, in fact, their elected leaders, then why do they keep (re)electing these self-serving individuals who obviously don't have their best interest at heart.
If they think Donald Trump (or any president for that a) is going to save them, they are going to be in a perpetual state of disappointment/despair until their dying days.
Why didn't these people get the same message? Was it their elders, local, regional, state, or national leaders that failed to prepare them for this reality? If it was, in fact, their elected leaders, then why do they keep (re)electing these self-serving individuals who obviously don't have their best interest at heart.
If they think Donald Trump (or any president for that a) is going to save them, they are going to be in a perpetual state of disappointment/despair until their dying days.
14
Trump promissed you things just to get your votes you will soon realize that these are empty promises you voted for the wrong individual he is and always was a con man.
5
Very interesting article. It is truly a shame and a lost opportunity that the NYT and other mainstream media did not look for these stories before. Had this type of reporting existed a year ago either Bernie Sanders would have been the Democratic nominee or opportunistic Hillary Clinton would have focussed her policies, effort and time on the people and states she ignored and lost. Instead we saw only low-hanging stories about Donald Trump's vile personality, which was not enough to overcome many peoples' real concerns. Trump's "What did they have to lose?" was not aimed exclusively at racial minorities, it seems.
4
All of the working class folks who voted for Trump, voted with their emotions and not their brains. He sold them a lot of lies to get elected. Since he's never governed before, he will have to rely on the very thing these voters voted against -- establishment politicians, namely Ryan, McConnell, etc. They will tell him what to do; not the other way around. You all voted against your own best interests.
7
These workers shouldn't worry if their plant moves to Mexico. When Trump works his voodoo, they'll have their pick of so many other great paying jobs. It'll be beautiful, believe him.
That's his promise to you, middle America.
That's his promise to you, middle America.
6
United Technologies stock price continued its climb even after Trump's win.
2
The President is the one elected office in the whole USA that we all vote for, and we can't even get that out of the grasp of the states originally created to partition the US between slavery and freedom.
2
The irony is: Americans wishing to escape this fascist Trump regime will flee to the liberal democracy of Germany!
2
The election is over. Minimally educated unadaptable blue collar workers won. Now, we will see. Carrier is gone and is not coming back. Other low-skill factory jobs aren't coming back. The next election IS coming. Since, "Jobs, jobs, jobs," will still be gone, gone, gone, what next?
"The company pointed out that it will finance FOUR-YEAR [caps mine] retraining and educational programs for employees and provide financial help." I wonder how many workers (who didn't study in elementary school, high school, or attend community college) will take advantage of the retraining? I hope someone tracks who does. I'd like to compare their progress with those who continue to demand the return of jobs that are NEVER coming back.
"The company pointed out that it will finance FOUR-YEAR [caps mine] retraining and educational programs for employees and provide financial help." I wonder how many workers (who didn't study in elementary school, high school, or attend community college) will take advantage of the retraining? I hope someone tracks who does. I'd like to compare their progress with those who continue to demand the return of jobs that are NEVER coming back.
8
I am just guessing that leadership at Carrier and United Technologies also voted for Trump. $100 anyone? These folks will benefit greatly by Trump's first piece of legislation: a big tax cut for the rich. Well financed Republicans in Congress will protect leadership from Trump wandering far from established Republican dogma on globalization. Unfortunately, the working men and women at Carrier have been rigged by the new rigger in chief.
5
When the jobs don't materialize, when the promises aren't kept, remind these people who are responsible. The republicans now have Congress and the presidency. They will not have an excuse for not fixing all the ills they claim the democrats are responsible for. To quote mitch mcconnell, the democrat's job is to make trump a one term president.
5
There was a really interesting video documentary by the Guardian called
"Anywhere But Washington". https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/series/anywhere-but-washington The reporter traveled cross country and interviewed all sections of society. There are many local leaders who have great ideas for reinvigorating depressed areas and getting away from the fast fading coalmines and factories. Many of the people interviewed were thoughtful and contemplative and not in the least "deplorable".
Would be great if the media here would do similar. There is nothing like promoting compassion and understanding when you have an intimate glimpse into others lives. It is very unifying.
"Anywhere But Washington". https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/series/anywhere-but-washington The reporter traveled cross country and interviewed all sections of society. There are many local leaders who have great ideas for reinvigorating depressed areas and getting away from the fast fading coalmines and factories. Many of the people interviewed were thoughtful and contemplative and not in the least "deplorable".
Would be great if the media here would do similar. There is nothing like promoting compassion and understanding when you have an intimate glimpse into others lives. It is very unifying.
3
I was going to replace my Ford with another Ford in a couple of months. No more, maybe Japanese this time. If the voters in Michigan can't figure out what Obama did for them, too bad. I shopped at Trader Joe's today, company based in California. Otherwise,it's European and Asian products for me from now on. Everybody can stew in their own juice. Good luck.
4
This article should have been written three months ago and the DNC should have read it.
3
I feel bad for all of the blue collar workers who have lost or soon will be losing your job. Trump cannot and will not do anything for you since it does not effect him financially. For all of the union people who voted for Trump? Let me ask you... Who began and supported unions? Answer : not the Republican Party. If you work in the auto industry and it is well documented that Obama saved your jobs in 2009 and the Republicans wanted to ditch your industry... Yet you voted for Trump? You get what you deserve, and don't expect a hand up from the Trump administration.
8
First thing I would do if I was Mr Trump is to bring back the jobs he outsourced in his companies to slave labor countries. That should be ASAP since he controls it.
Bringing back Carrier and other companies??.....Trump is putting big biz types in all his positions.
I would vote on the Bklyn Bridge here being sold before that happens.
Bringing back Carrier and other companies??.....Trump is putting big biz types in all his positions.
I would vote on the Bklyn Bridge here being sold before that happens.
37
I think many Americans, especially those who are younger, have gotten caught up in the so-called "American Dream" that so many politicians keep speaking about. Hillary Clinton was guilty of this, as were others. The "American Dream" is indeed gone and will not be coming back. Trump will not be able to do anything. This "dream" came easily after years of the Great Depression and World War 11 where the destruction of WW 11 necessitated great rebuilding projects. This is over and companies have moved on.....they are not returning from Mexico and other places. They do not need millions of workers in this technological age. It is a new age. Unfortunately, the rich will get richer......don't know what the answer is for the rest....but lets stop talking about the phony "American Dream" and get realistic.
1
Blame people like me. I graduated from college 50 years ago. Since then, I have helped to make a myriad of jobs obsolete, including clerk typists, draftsmen, machinists, keypunch operators,.... We helped industry bring its products to market much more rapidly with higher quality. The Russian Sputnik, which was launched just about 59 years ago when I was in the seventh grade started all this change. All this change did not happen overnight. Those who have not seen the changes as I have will easily fall gullible to the scapegoating of people like Donald Trump.
3
Perhaps you can use your college education to read the entire article. This is not so much about the obsolescence of jobs as it is the outsourcing of labor (and, in fact capital) to countries with a much lower standard of living, health care, work/health protections, and environmental restrictions. Add to that, the two workers in the picture do all their shopping for those cheap imported goods at Walmart.
People, like you and I, used our educations to help build the most creative economy and society on the planet. One which, unfortunately, has turned that intellectual property and potential over to foreign nations and their workers.
People, like you and I, used our educations to help build the most creative economy and society on the planet. One which, unfortunately, has turned that intellectual property and potential over to foreign nations and their workers.
Outsurcing is why I lost my job 23 years ago. Our CEO figured he'd save a lot of money by laying us all off and replacing us with cheaper, inexperienced labor in India. The company subsequently went bankrupt, but the CEO got kudos for selling it at "bargain basement" value to a competitor.
1
We're losing many STEM jobs as well. Companies like IBM clamor for H-1B visas here so they can train those people to return to their native countries and train others. More recently, Disney brought in visa recipients to replace US workers after they had trained the replacements. Global telecommunications has made the "iinformation office" transparent globally.
2
"Boy are there going to some disappointed Trump voters."
Almost certainly there will be. But that doesn't change HRC's "tone-deaf" treatment of those people during the campaign. If there weren't video proof of it, would you even believe that someone running for President and speaking at a rally attended by many out-of-work West Virginia coal miners and their families would say "We're going to put a lot of coal mining companies and coal miners out of business, right, Tim?"
I acknowledge that HRC freely admits she lacks the political skills of her husband or Barack Obama. But even a day-old bagel has enough "political skills" not to say such a stupid thing. One can give all sorts of reasons why HRC lost -- especially since the election was close -- but one reason might just be that she herself blew it by making tone-deaf remarks to people whose votes she was seeking.
Almost certainly there will be. But that doesn't change HRC's "tone-deaf" treatment of those people during the campaign. If there weren't video proof of it, would you even believe that someone running for President and speaking at a rally attended by many out-of-work West Virginia coal miners and their families would say "We're going to put a lot of coal mining companies and coal miners out of business, right, Tim?"
I acknowledge that HRC freely admits she lacks the political skills of her husband or Barack Obama. But even a day-old bagel has enough "political skills" not to say such a stupid thing. One can give all sorts of reasons why HRC lost -- especially since the election was close -- but one reason might just be that she herself blew it by making tone-deaf remarks to people whose votes she was seeking.
1
Telling them that coal can compete with a combination of renewable power and combined cycle natural gas fueled generating stations would have been a bald-faced lie.
3
They are more likely than not to be disappointed, as most Trumpists will be when they learn that advertising is his specialty, not delivering the goods.
When Trump brings in the jobs he has personally sent packing -
jobs he's created overseas - when he moves manufacture of his suits, ties and shirts out of Mexico, moves his businesses out of Bangladesh, China, Honduras or the other countries where Trump products are manufactured: the Netherlands, India, Turkey, Slovenia, Germany, Indonesia, Vietnam and South Korea - then maybe they'll be able to believe him. They should have taken lessons in holding their breath.
When Trump brings in the jobs he has personally sent packing -
jobs he's created overseas - when he moves manufacture of his suits, ties and shirts out of Mexico, moves his businesses out of Bangladesh, China, Honduras or the other countries where Trump products are manufactured: the Netherlands, India, Turkey, Slovenia, Germany, Indonesia, Vietnam and South Korea - then maybe they'll be able to believe him. They should have taken lessons in holding their breath.
5
Up till now there were two revealing political questions:
1. What did you do in the war? (WW2)
2. Did you vote for Sarah Palin?
The answers would reveal much about the person answering.
Now we have a third moral denominator: Did you vote for Trump?
The answer lies in the mirror, if you can stand to look.
1. What did you do in the war? (WW2)
2. Did you vote for Sarah Palin?
The answers would reveal much about the person answering.
Now we have a third moral denominator: Did you vote for Trump?
The answer lies in the mirror, if you can stand to look.
1
Why doesn't Trump set a good example for other CEO's and order his companies to start making his products in the US? Right now. Lead by example, Trump.
To the hard workers of Carrier: Even if your jobs are saved, for now, plan for the future. Save and retool. Technology is taking jobs away, even if trade deals and tax policies can be fixed to save jobs from going overseas. And but local whenever possible. Support the local economy.
To the hard workers of Carrier: Even if your jobs are saved, for now, plan for the future. Save and retool. Technology is taking jobs away, even if trade deals and tax policies can be fixed to save jobs from going overseas. And but local whenever possible. Support the local economy.
10
The electoral college system has given us corporatists George W Bush, and now, Donald Trump - against the majority of voter's will.. This subsequently resulted in a right-wing Supreme Court that equates corporations with people and anonymous money with speech... Congressional gerrymandering has given us both houses of congress with voter suppressing corporate-owned Republican majorities, even though both houses received fewer actual Republican votes from the People.
Our "democratic" system needs reform.
Our "democratic" system needs reform.
12
Yes, something is rotten in the US. But unfortunately we are not getting the candidate who will change anything.
3
Don't forget, they also seek to break down separation of church and state to be able to use religion as a legal cover for harassment, coercion, and involuntary servitude.
3
Whenever I read Supreme Court decisions bearing on "equal protection of the law", I feel like I'm riding with the Cheshire Cat and the Queen of Hearts.
1
We have had the same situation in the fishing industry in Northern Norway last 15 years. Looseljy populated areas, a lot of fish landed, but from 2000 50-60% of the rawmaterial was sent to China, reprocrssed and sent to Europe, US markets.60-70% of the processunh companies gone. Whats left of jobs is 80% non Norwegian. Many years of failed governmental sttemps to cling to the industry jobs. But now we see an industry prospering again. At least to a certain degree.
And the chinesr processung jobs? They are currently being moved back to Europe, Poland in particular, as salaries have risen in China
Just wanted to mention that we are all experiencing some of the same. Its though, but no politician can irvshould force a company to do choices that anyway brings them out of the game further down the toad. We wasted billions doing that.
Can really understand the teason for some changing candidate, as ehat the hell do you do? You feel helpless and want to try a mew path. If they are conned, they will anyway see that and then it is paybacktime further down the road.
I think you should first of all agree it is a serious challenge on job isdues, where each and one is forced to think on themselves. But if Trump just lied to get the votes, it is a double treason shains people in a difficult situation
Good luck, hope it improves
And the chinesr processung jobs? They are currently being moved back to Europe, Poland in particular, as salaries have risen in China
Just wanted to mention that we are all experiencing some of the same. Its though, but no politician can irvshould force a company to do choices that anyway brings them out of the game further down the toad. We wasted billions doing that.
Can really understand the teason for some changing candidate, as ehat the hell do you do? You feel helpless and want to try a mew path. If they are conned, they will anyway see that and then it is paybacktime further down the road.
I think you should first of all agree it is a serious challenge on job isdues, where each and one is forced to think on themselves. But if Trump just lied to get the votes, it is a double treason shains people in a difficult situation
Good luck, hope it improves
1
Correct me if I'm wrong....but the Norwegian government responded to these fluctuations by strengthening and creating new social safety nets to help their people survive times of uncertainty. For example, most Norwegians who lose their jobs can still obtain healthcare and education. Very few Norwegians who are unemployed or underemployed (not by their own choice) face starvation, homelessness, or dying from preventable illnesses. If they want to return to school, university education is affordable.
Unfortunately, in the US, quite the opposite is true. Our social safety nets have increasingly been stripped away as decent paying jobs are dwindling. Some aspects of Obamacare have helped these people obtain healthcare, but the degree of that help varies from state to state. College is out of reach for most of these people because they cannot afford it. The people highlighted in this article stand a very REAL possibility of losing their homes, their healthcare, and may struggle to provide the basics for themselves and their families.
Unfortunately, in the US, quite the opposite is true. Our social safety nets have increasingly been stripped away as decent paying jobs are dwindling. Some aspects of Obamacare have helped these people obtain healthcare, but the degree of that help varies from state to state. College is out of reach for most of these people because they cannot afford it. The people highlighted in this article stand a very REAL possibility of losing their homes, their healthcare, and may struggle to provide the basics for themselves and their families.
President Obama has attempted to pass an infrastructure bill to create well paying construction jobs to compensate for the loss of manufacturing jobs and another bill to provide free or reduced tuition to enable people who lost their job to retrain and seek jobs in other sectors. Both legislations were firmly rejected by the Republican congress which refuses to provide any relief for the poor and middle class and wanted Obama to fail at any cost so that they can regain the White House. However, it appears the very same republicans are willing to allow Trump to pass an infrastructure bill similar to the one proposed by President Obama. In addition, he wants to pass tax cuts mostly for the rich raising questions about how the government will be able to afford President Trump's largesse. This will result in a ballooning of the deficit which needs to be sanctioned by the conservative deficit hawks of the GOP. Trump may clash with politicians of his own party and may have to ally with the Democrats to pass his agenda. Unfortunately, the Democrats have not managed during this campaign to inform some of the disgruntled Trump voters who is responsible for their plight. Many of those Trump voters have no time to read to be well informed so they ended voting against their own interests.
4
Even though, as Donald Trump continued to promise he'd bring back the jobs sent overseas and those sent south of the border, there was a continuing stream of commentary from economists saying his promises were false. So, within a reasonable amount of time once it had been determined the jobs would not, could not return any where near the numbers Trump was predicting, his promises needed to have been call out for what they became, what they were: simply lies. When our natiion's electorate needed to hear the truth, what they got from Donald Trump were lies and exaggerations. During the final month of this electioin campaign, Trump's scripted monologue, authored by non other thasn the likes of Kellyanne Conway and Stephen Bannon, became a litany of lies, but no where in the medium we rely on so deeply, The Press, was there anyone informing the electorate that most, almost all, of what Trump was saying amounted to nothing but Lies. And it is now so apparent tah Freedom of Speech should have limits as to how far from truthful verbage a candidate can stray.
5
I agree. Not that long ago, people advertising for products could make wild, unsubstantiated claims: like "Drink this juice. It will cure cancer!" So truth in advertising laws were passed and enforced. Most people would agree that the good these laws do far outweighs any negatives.
Our President Elect is essentially a snake oil salesman. If truth in advertising laws also applied to politicians, we would probably have a much better government.
Our President Elect is essentially a snake oil salesman. If truth in advertising laws also applied to politicians, we would probably have a much better government.
2
I think Trump will surprise many of us by following through with some number of his promises. We shouldn't let our animosity towards indecency, as deserved as it is, obscure the fact that he isn't beholden to a political career's worth of Republican commitment. It seems that his post-Election actions and attitude substantiate what a number of Republican leaders initially feared, which is his lack of commitment to their causes such as ruthlessly hating Obama. I'm of the mind that his primary goal now is to "win" at being president, which incidentally serves us all. The challenge to this falls on whether or not he can sniff out his GOP advisors' own cult-like agenda when making decisions per their guidance.
You don't think Trump has made deals with all forms of government to make his real estate deals into reality?
I think Trump has as many political favours to pay off as any career politician.
It's not like he seems to be choosing only career business people to be in his inner circle of advisors. If he only chose non-politicians to help out, that would be with noting.
I think Trump has as many political favours to pay off as any career politician.
It's not like he seems to be choosing only career business people to be in his inner circle of advisors. If he only chose non-politicians to help out, that would be with noting.
1
If Trump doesn't do what the legislative branch Republicans want him to do, they'll happily impeach Trump in the Congress and expect Democrats to help convict him in the Senate.
Mike Pence lies in waiting...
Mike Pence lies in waiting...
3
I had similar hopes, though I did not and never would vote for the man, who I find reprehensible. I've been disgusted to see over the past few days who it is that he's bringing in with him - the same old bunch of insiders, Wall Streeters, and oil company lobbyists, with the added frisson of alt-right madness in the form of Steve Bannon. Which leads me to believe that the number of promises he will be following through on, sadly, is exactly 0.
2
Workers who consistently cedepower to the "owners" of corporations by not organizing and by not demanding a seat at the table when decisions that involve them are made by those who have no stake in the outcome and little if any expertise in the economic sector (check employer's board of directors qualifications) lose. They lose by agreeing to working conditions that are unsafe or below the industry standards thus asking for their manufacturing facility to be moved or simply closed to benefit "owners".
When a job and how it contributes to corporate profitability is not as important to the "owners" as the leveraged money that can be taken from a company through complex debt transactions allowed by a complex tax code voted for by politicians supported by workers, then workers don't count as voters either. If only workers pay taxes because the Trump-like and the corporations can outwit the tax code, then who supports the military and the infrastructure?
Workers who expect to keep profitable companies in their town should know who really "owns" them. And workers should research what value a strong and independent union can provide. What limitations did Indiana place on the unions at Carrier? If all the power is in the hands of the "owners", then workers will continue to need an authoritarian figure from government like Mr. Trump to even the odds. Either way the workers end up without power of their own. If the job is obsolete, no one is strong enough to bring it back.
When a job and how it contributes to corporate profitability is not as important to the "owners" as the leveraged money that can be taken from a company through complex debt transactions allowed by a complex tax code voted for by politicians supported by workers, then workers don't count as voters either. If only workers pay taxes because the Trump-like and the corporations can outwit the tax code, then who supports the military and the infrastructure?
Workers who expect to keep profitable companies in their town should know who really "owns" them. And workers should research what value a strong and independent union can provide. What limitations did Indiana place on the unions at Carrier? If all the power is in the hands of the "owners", then workers will continue to need an authoritarian figure from government like Mr. Trump to even the odds. Either way the workers end up without power of their own. If the job is obsolete, no one is strong enough to bring it back.
5
If Trump does not listen to these workers and do what he promised, next time they will vote for someone worse. If Americans can't imagine someone worse, please have a look at central Europe or the Philippines pr France.
I see the future based on the principle "eat local food, by local goods, consume locally produced energy, manufacture more or less locally (except for very expensive semiconductor plants and the like). Carrier may produce stuff for central America in Mexico and produce in Indiana for the US market. NAFTA is not a catholic dogma, its just a contract leaving room for some exceptions.
Remember Thomas Picketty and the risks a society takes if the difference between rich and poor is getting too big.
I see the future based on the principle "eat local food, by local goods, consume locally produced energy, manufacture more or less locally (except for very expensive semiconductor plants and the like). Carrier may produce stuff for central America in Mexico and produce in Indiana for the US market. NAFTA is not a catholic dogma, its just a contract leaving room for some exceptions.
Remember Thomas Picketty and the risks a society takes if the difference between rich and poor is getting too big.
In some ways this is analogous to someone who's received a terminal diagnosis and they desperately search for a second (or third or fourth) opinion from anyone who can offer a kernel of hope. Despite the reality of the situation. Punitive tariffs drive up consumer prices and will reduce Carrier's market share. Which will affect their production requirements and they may then scale back and reduce their workforce. Even fewer jobs for everyone, including the Mexicans. And Carrier's stock performance will decline, and investors will be unhappy, and then...
Not a pretty picture.
Not good business.
Obviously, and tragically, Clinton could not effectively reach these people to convince them that the Democrats were the party that had their best interests in mind.
Not a pretty picture.
Not good business.
Obviously, and tragically, Clinton could not effectively reach these people to convince them that the Democrats were the party that had their best interests in mind.
5
And tragically, the Republicans pressured Comey to stack the deck, when a Clinton victory looked close. Hate, lies and greed won, with some assistance from racism.
2
I think that part of the problem is that only the professional class and migrant workers seem to be willing to move to places with greater economic opportunity. During the dust bowl, people moved to California from Oklahoma, and there was the great migration to the northern industrial cities by African Americans. One of the downsides to increased home ownership by the working class has been that they are tied to their communities, and even if they lose their home, other family members and their support system may keep theirs and they remain trapped.
We should not just be assisting in retraining, especially in places where there is nothing to retrain into, instead we should be paying workers to relocate and retrain.
We should not just be assisting in retraining, especially in places where there is nothing to retrain into, instead we should be paying workers to relocate and retrain.
3
Unfortunately, we have the business schools to hold partly to blame. It used to be the ethic that companies had some responsibility for their employees. That changed deliberately when business schools began teaching that the corporate ethic was to the shareholders and maximizing profit for them. To make things worse we now have a society where retirees (of which I am one) require a strong stock market with concomitant corporate emphasis on maximizing profits. The only way they can do that is by cutting costs: more robots and cheaper labor.
2
Republicans (and some Democrats) have always argued (successfully) for the last decades that tariffs to protect American workers deny the consumer the benefit of the lowest possible prices for goods, would encourage workers to seek higher wages (under such protections), and would be inflationary. Furthermore, consumers have insisted (the Walmart mindset) on such as well.
Our addiction to cheap imported goods and the hidden costs (including unemployment, crime, neighborhood blight, welfare, other social subsidy programs, and debt) of their "too good to be true prices" has gotten us to where we are today. If Mr. Trump can convince Americans to pay more (that is, to actually support their fellow Americans) for consumer goods, my "hat is off to him". I'm not counting on it as, I'll bet those two folks sitting in the picture (with their angst that got Mr. Trump elected) are every bit as much a part of that problem.
Our addiction to cheap imported goods and the hidden costs (including unemployment, crime, neighborhood blight, welfare, other social subsidy programs, and debt) of their "too good to be true prices" has gotten us to where we are today. If Mr. Trump can convince Americans to pay more (that is, to actually support their fellow Americans) for consumer goods, my "hat is off to him". I'm not counting on it as, I'll bet those two folks sitting in the picture (with their angst that got Mr. Trump elected) are every bit as much a part of that problem.
2
I deeply care about these people and wish them nothing but good in their lives, but they are deluded - have been since the 1970s - if they don't see that blue collar jobs have been lost to technology and automation, not to underpaid overseas textile sweat shops. Far too many of our working poor began this spiral down in the massive debilitating Nixon inflationary recession with no end that rolled into new cycles of upheaval ever since and throughout each administration , save the 8 years of Bill Clinton. What is needed is retraining program and a return to high school and youth vo-tech training - just as was detailed by Hillary Clinton throughout her campaign. I ache that these people could not see that Clinton had real policies that would've begun helping them in January 2017. Now, who knows if that hand to help them up will ever be there for them.
7
If we look deeper into what's happening - beneath the red meat issues, identity politics, the racism and the misogyny (neither of which are excusable under any set of circumstances) - there seems to be fundamental economic concerns shared by every side. All everyone seems to really want is for their hard work to give them a better life. And because that isn't really happening anymore for almost everyone, almost everyone is justified in their grievances with government, which is responsible for creating the conditions under which everyone can flourish.
Trump is the absurd consequence of an enduring and profound failure to recognize and seriously consider the needs of American labor on every side of the aisle.
I have very little faith in Mr. Trump's plans. I believe that the only way out of this is to seriously question our underlying assumptions about the way in which our economy has been designed. Our economy is not beholden to the laws of nature as some 'free market' devotees would have you believe, but rather, the subtleties that we build into it. Our economy is precisely what we make it. And we need to make it work for everyone if we want to have a world worth living in. I hope we all figure that out before we destroy ourselves.
Trump is the absurd consequence of an enduring and profound failure to recognize and seriously consider the needs of American labor on every side of the aisle.
I have very little faith in Mr. Trump's plans. I believe that the only way out of this is to seriously question our underlying assumptions about the way in which our economy has been designed. Our economy is not beholden to the laws of nature as some 'free market' devotees would have you believe, but rather, the subtleties that we build into it. Our economy is precisely what we make it. And we need to make it work for everyone if we want to have a world worth living in. I hope we all figure that out before we destroy ourselves.
3
This one article explains the jobs disaster America faces today. If United Technologies Corporation (UTC), the parent of Carrier Corp can't produce in the U.S. who can or will? UTC feeds off big Defense contracts for a large portion of their sales. Here in Conn., the state just gave them massive tax cuts to stay here. I give Trump credit for raising this issue during the campaign. Perhaps a reason Clinton lost is that she never mentioned it or used to say TPP was the gold standard. If Carrier cannot produce products in this country, we are all doomed for economic decline, the only question is when.
Yeah, Hillary never mentioned manufacturing. Nope.
https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/manufacturing/
http://time.com/4140404/hillary-clinton-manufacturing/
http://www.npr.org/2016/09/05/492727584/clinton-promises-to-help-create-...
http://www.indystar.com/story/news/politics/2016/04/26/hillary-clinton-t...
Interestingly enough, she actually had concrete and realistic plans for helping manufacturing, not pie in the sky promises of forceful phone calls and fake import tariffs (which will never happen ... can you imagine a Republican administration forcing Walmart to charge shoppers 35% more for all the stuff they import, lest their profits instantly drop 35% overnight?)
Sigh. I am sad that the theatrics of this election so easily drowned out facts.
https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/manufacturing/
http://time.com/4140404/hillary-clinton-manufacturing/
http://www.npr.org/2016/09/05/492727584/clinton-promises-to-help-create-...
http://www.indystar.com/story/news/politics/2016/04/26/hillary-clinton-t...
Interestingly enough, she actually had concrete and realistic plans for helping manufacturing, not pie in the sky promises of forceful phone calls and fake import tariffs (which will never happen ... can you imagine a Republican administration forcing Walmart to charge shoppers 35% more for all the stuff they import, lest their profits instantly drop 35% overnight?)
Sigh. I am sad that the theatrics of this election so easily drowned out facts.
5
Sadly, the angry protesters and sometimes mobs, venting their anger against president elect Trump, appear to be the ones unable or willing to solve real issues and challenges facing the larger American landscape and its people.
Trump will be president, and he deserves a great deal of credit for taking on the challenges of this nation and the office of the president.
How about the protesters taking on those challenges too, creating better paying jobs, fixing streets and crumbling infrastructure, and fighting climate change, locally and globally.
As a business owner, the only person willing to come to our business at 6p on a Saturday to fix our plumbing is a Mexican immigrant, a father and business owner himself, not a white educated young man or woman from San Francisco or Los Angeles.
Trump will be president, and he deserves a great deal of credit for taking on the challenges of this nation and the office of the president.
How about the protesters taking on those challenges too, creating better paying jobs, fixing streets and crumbling infrastructure, and fighting climate change, locally and globally.
As a business owner, the only person willing to come to our business at 6p on a Saturday to fix our plumbing is a Mexican immigrant, a father and business owner himself, not a white educated young man or woman from San Francisco or Los Angeles.
1
Andrew, do you not see the protesters were already working really hard to do exactly the things you advise -- but we do them together as members of the Democratic Party, and as citizens of the U.S., peaceably (mostly) assembling to let our president elect know what we want.
If you're OK with the FBI and Putin deciding our elections, I'm sorry you've lost the point of self-government. Our model, the ancient Roman Republic, operated on the principle that the most expensive penthouse is only as good as the base it rests on. Our own aristocracy is less foresighted. They've expanded their penthouses cheaply for decades by stripping materials from below, instead of adding buttresses to bear the weight. Their high places will soon teeter atop hollow crumbling shells.
2500 years before Karl Marx was born, the Romans figured out that those with the most resources and the most at stake should contribute the most to the health of the City and its people. Human rights didn't exist in their day -- but they saw that investing in the people just made good sense. Too bad we don't look beyond next quarter's share price.
If you're OK with the FBI and Putin deciding our elections, I'm sorry you've lost the point of self-government. Our model, the ancient Roman Republic, operated on the principle that the most expensive penthouse is only as good as the base it rests on. Our own aristocracy is less foresighted. They've expanded their penthouses cheaply for decades by stripping materials from below, instead of adding buttresses to bear the weight. Their high places will soon teeter atop hollow crumbling shells.
2500 years before Karl Marx was born, the Romans figured out that those with the most resources and the most at stake should contribute the most to the health of the City and its people. Human rights didn't exist in their day -- but they saw that investing in the people just made good sense. Too bad we don't look beyond next quarter's share price.
7
I hope for your sake that your Mexican plumber has his papers in order.
2
It seems to me that local governments have power to punish companies that ship jobs overseas too. I wish they'd use it. A school district that builds new facilities could write Carrier out of their specifications. So could a City or County government that builds buildings. A School Board Member, - City Councilman, a County Commissioner could get this through. We don't need to wait for Donald Trump to do it.
.
This approach could be really effective here in Texas, where school and community college districts are floating huge bonds for construction: Houston Independent School District's latest was $2 billion, and almost every project included HCAC work.
.
This approach could be really effective here in Texas, where school and community college districts are floating huge bonds for construction: Houston Independent School District's latest was $2 billion, and almost every project included HCAC work.
2
This article touches quite accurately on the real problem, but does not address it. The global trade agreements are not the problem. The problem is that, though the plant is profitable, they are under pressure to increase profits by Wall Street analysts. The finance industry doesn't finance anything, but we finance them. We have increasingly turned power over from the elected government to this unelected government, and they have no accountability to anyone but themselves. In 2008 we had the opportunity to tear their playhouse down, but we bailed them out--and continue to do so. One of their minions will likely be Treasury Secretary. Until we put Wall Street back to work for Main Street, you can whine about trade agreements till your blue in the face, but you won't solve the problem. When the elected government takes back control and quits toadying to Wall Street, and we start producing engineers and scientists instead of all these pseudo-intellectuals with MBAs, will we begin to solve the problem. The Republicans, and to a large extent the Democrats won't do it, so it will just get worse--and spawn ever more violent argument over policies that aren't actually solutions.
6
A long overdue departure from NYT's racial-offense-of-the-day article. But I fear the ship sailed 30 years ago. Chinese factory-cities give even robots a run for the money. There also hasn't been a "buy American" outcry since Iacocca. Too focused on flipping our next house or SUV, we embraced Slavemart which told Fisher Price and vendors to go Asian or get lost.
China and Russia protect their industries, and Japan at least long did. D.C. only protects their donors. Consumer demand is the only meager way to fight the tide, and it won't be easy.
I went to Sears and couldn't find either a Craftsman or Stanley tool made here. Alas, I did buy my Stanley screwdriver set at Target, Made in USA with foreign steel, for $12. At least the robot lives here. You can still buy U.S. hand tools for $30-40 that will outlast many shareholders, but not at Home Depot or Lowes, whose cheap stuff does the job for most people.
My German-designed Miele cost over $100 more than average big box vacuum. The U.S. Simplicity was yet another $100; built like a tank, weighed as much, sucked the carpet off the floor. More than I needed.
As for the Carrier and steel workers, if my Republican radio show is any indication, prepare to retrain in health care, at best.
China and Russia protect their industries, and Japan at least long did. D.C. only protects their donors. Consumer demand is the only meager way to fight the tide, and it won't be easy.
I went to Sears and couldn't find either a Craftsman or Stanley tool made here. Alas, I did buy my Stanley screwdriver set at Target, Made in USA with foreign steel, for $12. At least the robot lives here. You can still buy U.S. hand tools for $30-40 that will outlast many shareholders, but not at Home Depot or Lowes, whose cheap stuff does the job for most people.
My German-designed Miele cost over $100 more than average big box vacuum. The U.S. Simplicity was yet another $100; built like a tank, weighed as much, sucked the carpet off the floor. More than I needed.
As for the Carrier and steel workers, if my Republican radio show is any indication, prepare to retrain in health care, at best.
2
"Don't expect much sympathy from the people of Syracuse whose jobs you took when Carrier moved them to Indiana to break the unions."
This has happened before. 100+ years ago, many US companies moved from "mill towns" in New England to Southern states. 100 years later, many of those same companies moved from those Southern states to other countries. People in those New England mill towns weren't alive when the first moves occurred, but their ancestors might not feel terribly sorry for those displaced Southern-state workers.
A similar phenomenon has occurred in the retailing world. 30-40 years ago, many "downtown" retailers were put out of business by stores in suburban shopping malls. Today, many of those mall stores are being put out of business by Amazon and other on-line retailers. I suspect that many of those former "downtown" retailers aren't terribly sympathetic to the owners and employees of those mall stores.
This has happened before. 100+ years ago, many US companies moved from "mill towns" in New England to Southern states. 100 years later, many of those same companies moved from those Southern states to other countries. People in those New England mill towns weren't alive when the first moves occurred, but their ancestors might not feel terribly sorry for those displaced Southern-state workers.
A similar phenomenon has occurred in the retailing world. 30-40 years ago, many "downtown" retailers were put out of business by stores in suburban shopping malls. Today, many of those mall stores are being put out of business by Amazon and other on-line retailers. I suspect that many of those former "downtown" retailers aren't terribly sympathetic to the owners and employees of those mall stores.
9
Amen.
And think about how many tax breaks and regulatory exceptions were made by state and local governments to attract and then keep companies in the region - only to see the company move anyway.
And think about how many tax breaks and regulatory exceptions were made by state and local governments to attract and then keep companies in the region - only to see the company move anyway.
5
I have no sympathy for ANY Trump voter. None...
They have put US ALL at risk.
They have put US ALL at risk.
15
It's clear that for the past 40 years, Donald J. Trump has been a reliable champion of America's working class, having instituted a great profit-sharing plan for the hard-working employees he has personally and repeatedly held responsible for the success of his company ("My old man built the business and my staff maintains it. I'm a very lucky man!"). In addition, he has turned down numerous opportunities to manufacture his branded products overseas, remaining here in the U.S. while hiring as many people as possible to produce shirts, ties and cuff-links in return for great pay and lavish benefits. Having made a detailed study of the economic hardships plaguing America's heartland, he has made a point of constructing hotels and casinos in Rust-Belt cities like Akron and Scranton and numerous smaller towns in order to bring business into those areas. Having seen the need to reopen coal mines, he has made personal inspections to ensure that safety concerns will be met at all times and that the local environment will not be adversely affected. In addition, he has for many years spent long hours with union officials and organizers to address all outstanding issues and make certain that employer-employee relations never suffer as a result of unforeseen circumstances. I have no doubt whatsoever that Donald J. Trump will keep all of the promises he made to America's workers during the course of this campaign.
Donald J. Trump
(Whaddya mean, I need a WITNESS?!)
Donald J. Trump
(Whaddya mean, I need a WITNESS?!)
13
Trump doesn't manufacture his branded products in the US. He outsources his branded products to foreign countries, as in China and Mexico. Check your "facts".
@Philadelphia: Was that the only "fact" I got wrong? Or did you not appreciate the that "my" entire comment was intended as parody?
2
Looks like they voted for "hope" not change.
4
I find the writer and many commenters to be so concerned with the feelings of powerless victims that they forget that this is what we asked for. Indiana embraces capitalism, yet we should despair over the inevitable results? The workers have jobs for now and are entitled to what their contract gives them after termination. They have a right to their pensions, retirement and/or social security down the line. That part about the hard-working Burmese immigrants should remind everyone that no-one has a right to live where they want and also get paid what they want. Factories, mines, etc. grow and shrink, and the jobs appear and disappear. Indiana, Wisconsin, Michigan, Iowa and Illinois compete to lure companies and steal jobs from each other, leave alone the draw of Mexico. These same workers' grandparents chose to leave their homes to go where the jobs were. It may be a good time for most of the current workers to skip the "job retraining" and just move on. I wonder what those Burmese immigrants would have said if the writer had bothered to interview them.
4
Yes indeed, the state-eat-state competition in the US is scandalous.
I hope they're prepared to wait a very long time.
4
It is both sad and terrifying that these people thought that Trump would actually and literally stop companies from offshoring manufacturing and would bring back the jobs that have already gone overseas.
How is it possible that they were so selective in what they heard and believed. They heard Trump say outrageous, offensive, and generally crazy things and were somehow able to dismiss those comments as hyperbole. But when Trump said he would do the impossible -- save their jobs, create new jobs, etc. they fell for it by the proverbial hook, line, and sinker.
I do not mean to be insulting, but I finally think I understand who all the people are that fall for the Nigerian Prince email scams. These are the same people who get a call from the "IRS" telling them that they owe additional taxes and must pay or will go to jail. The "IRS" then tells them to purchase itunes cards online while on the phone and give them the card information over the phone. And people do this. When I first heard of this IRS scam, I could not understand how any American would fall for such a ridiculous scam. I mean, itunes cards? Seriously? But after reading this article I feel I have a much better understanding of America's voters.
How is it possible that they were so selective in what they heard and believed. They heard Trump say outrageous, offensive, and generally crazy things and were somehow able to dismiss those comments as hyperbole. But when Trump said he would do the impossible -- save their jobs, create new jobs, etc. they fell for it by the proverbial hook, line, and sinker.
I do not mean to be insulting, but I finally think I understand who all the people are that fall for the Nigerian Prince email scams. These are the same people who get a call from the "IRS" telling them that they owe additional taxes and must pay or will go to jail. The "IRS" then tells them to purchase itunes cards online while on the phone and give them the card information over the phone. And people do this. When I first heard of this IRS scam, I could not understand how any American would fall for such a ridiculous scam. I mean, itunes cards? Seriously? But after reading this article I feel I have a much better understanding of America's voters.
12
Carrier isn't the only Indianapolis company making this move. Rexnord Corp, maker of ball bearings, is poised to close its Indianapolis manufacturing plant. The plan is to move production to Monterrey Mexico as early as next spring. The company has 290 employees.
Mexican workers get $3 an hour. Carrier and Rexnord workers? $25 an hour. With that pay discrepancy, companies could afford to move, pay a tariff, and still make a profit.
Mexican workers get $3 an hour. Carrier and Rexnord workers? $25 an hour. With that pay discrepancy, companies could afford to move, pay a tariff, and still make a profit.
3
The larger the mob, the harder the test. In small areas, before small electorates, a first-rate man occasionally fights his way through, carrying even the mob with him by force of his personality. But when the field is nationwide, and the fight must be waged chiefly at second and third hand, and the force of personality cannot so readily make itself felt, then all the odds are on the man who is, intrinsically, the most devious and mediocre — the man who can most easily adeptly disperse the notion that his mind is a virtual vacuum.
The Presidency tends, year by year, to go to such men. As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.
H.L Mencken
The Presidency tends, year by year, to go to such men. As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.
H.L Mencken
3
This was the part I never understood, what was DJT going to do to save your jobs. I always thought we needed someone in the POTUS that could drive us to the top in the global economy by innovation (new ideas) not the same old tried DJT/HRC rhetoric. We can't hide, it won't work. Maybe it was Bernie after all...
2
The people most disappointed by this man will be those who believed in him.
7
I consider anyone who voted for the pathological liar Trump, or didn't vote, as part of the problem... And I have no sympathy... Just as I had no sympathy for anyone who voted for George "Mission Accomplished!" Bush... The SECOND TIME!
16
Let these workers disillusionment begin. When they find out Trump played them, they'll vote differently in 2020z
5
Trump is a master manipulator. He will say a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g to get what he wants. He is laughing at you guys right now. He doesn't need you guys anymore. Don't you get it? He used you guys. Look how he's already changing his tune. The people who he really needs are the people who detest him right now and voted against him. He knows this and he is already changing course.
I know you guys just wanted hope and you wanted your jobs back. But he didn't care about you AT ALL. Hillary actually wanted to fund free college education. Which, i'm sorry is what you need in this country to succeed. You NEED to obtain a higher degree. These days you need even more than a bachelors degree. If you want control of YOUR life take control. Go to school, work your butt off, take a chance, be creative. Don't put your life in the hands someone else.
I know you guys just wanted hope and you wanted your jobs back. But he didn't care about you AT ALL. Hillary actually wanted to fund free college education. Which, i'm sorry is what you need in this country to succeed. You NEED to obtain a higher degree. These days you need even more than a bachelors degree. If you want control of YOUR life take control. Go to school, work your butt off, take a chance, be creative. Don't put your life in the hands someone else.
14
Don't expect much sympathy from the people of Syracuse whose jobs you took when Carrier moved them to Indiana to break the unions.
28
Not a great situation for these carrier workers in Indiana. But I tune out when they start going after Hillary's character. Pick somebody your own league. You think Hillary never had setbacks? Nobody handed anything to her. Going after her policies is fine but when they go after her they have to realize for every finger pointing at her they have three pointing at them.
13
They are mickey mouse martinets over trivia sharing the mentality of secret police or neighborhood Defenders of the Revolution.
1
Answer: No
Not one thing in Trump's 70 years on this planet indicates that he has the ability, interest, or desire in helping these people. In fact, the inverse is true.
Sorry. You've been foolishly conned by a snake oil salesman.
Not one thing in Trump's 70 years on this planet indicates that he has the ability, interest, or desire in helping these people. In fact, the inverse is true.
Sorry. You've been foolishly conned by a snake oil salesman.
13
Based on reading commentaries here, we went from "Yes We Can" slogan 8 years ago to "No We Cannot" under Trump presidency. What a turn in event and mood..
1
Naysaying and bullying are the brave new American pathways to success. Yeehaw!
1
Carrier is part of United Technologies, a major aerospace contractor whose stock has been rising on the expectation of more defense spending. A quiet conversation could lead to Carrier staying for awhile in return for a little more padding of a defense contract for Pratt and Whitney, also a United Technologies Company. Everyone wins except the US taxpayer. And as several people have pointed out Trump does his own manufacturing abroad so he is in a poor position to jawbone others. Besides it is against Trump's nature to challenge the important and connected. He accommodates the wealthy and screws the worker. He rails against Mexico and fawns over Russia. There is nothing in his history or interests that suggests he will give these folks any assistance whatsoever unless he sees some tactical advantage.
The real story here is the difficult circumstances of these workers and their willingness to believe any snake-oil salesman. Coming from this background I understand why but in part his win stems from the reluctance of the Democrats to attack him directly on this issue. At every campaign event the candidate should have been leading cheers of “Where are your jobs?“ and “Where are your returns?“, making those central themes. Blaming her loss on James Comey is simply an excuse for failure to go after the Trump vulnerabilities that matter to people. Instead he sold a bill of goods to Carrier employees. How many Trump buildings rely on Otis elevators (a United Technologies company)?.
The real story here is the difficult circumstances of these workers and their willingness to believe any snake-oil salesman. Coming from this background I understand why but in part his win stems from the reluctance of the Democrats to attack him directly on this issue. At every campaign event the candidate should have been leading cheers of “Where are your jobs?“ and “Where are your returns?“, making those central themes. Blaming her loss on James Comey is simply an excuse for failure to go after the Trump vulnerabilities that matter to people. Instead he sold a bill of goods to Carrier employees. How many Trump buildings rely on Otis elevators (a United Technologies company)?.
5
Trump cannot keep jobs here in companies that want to change their operations in a way that affects jobs. No government in the U.S. has that power, federal, state, or local. He can institute government policies that affect those company decisions, but that kind of thing is not effectively done in a reaction to those kinds of company decisions. They are governmental action taking in a general sense to try to effect outcomes in a broad sense, sometimes trying to target specific industries. No president can tell the "XYZ" company that they cannot move their operations or layoff workers.
Now, maybe that's not clear to Trump and he needs to be educated. But then, there may be a lot of things that Trump wants to do and tries to do and learns that he cannot do because he is a president not a dictator. It could be a long, slow process of trying to educate an ignorant president.
In the face of finding out that he cannot govern the way he wants to, maybe he'll get frustrated, and hand the keys over to Pence, and go home. But that's probably not likely.
The key to understanding Trump's presidency could very well be his reactions to such frustrations and his willingness or unwillingness to be educated 'on the fly' so to speak.
It's hard to imagine a more ignorant president than G.W. Bush. We'll have to see about Trump.
Now, maybe that's not clear to Trump and he needs to be educated. But then, there may be a lot of things that Trump wants to do and tries to do and learns that he cannot do because he is a president not a dictator. It could be a long, slow process of trying to educate an ignorant president.
In the face of finding out that he cannot govern the way he wants to, maybe he'll get frustrated, and hand the keys over to Pence, and go home. But that's probably not likely.
The key to understanding Trump's presidency could very well be his reactions to such frustrations and his willingness or unwillingness to be educated 'on the fly' so to speak.
It's hard to imagine a more ignorant president than G.W. Bush. We'll have to see about Trump.
3
Proving once again that Clinton lost the election more than Trump won it. She just didn't care about white, working-class people. White voters are 75% of the electorate and working-class white voters make up at least 40% of the electorate, yet Clinton pretty much ignored them. I voted for her but I live surrounded by people who voted for Trump (upstate NY is red except for urban areas) and blaming haters or racists or even misogynists is just ridiculous. Sure, there are people here who are all of the above, but most just wondered what Clinton had to offer them to help with their problems (no jobs, the loss of manufacturing, a declining population as their children move away, and higher and higher taxes as fewer are left to pay for more). Clinton offered nothing to deal with these issues and everyone believed she'd flip-flop again on TPP, making things worse. Given the campaign she ran, I can't say I blame them.
8
She won the election by popular vote under the Electoral College system of automatically discarding the votes of urban elites whether they vote or not.
2
The question you should ask yourself and even your neighbors, is how can you vote for a candidate without a plan as to how he's going to bring back jobs? The election as ended and we still don't know what's his stands on most or if not all of the issues we face. This election was more of common sense and intelligence, and America failed the test. He won't change a thing. Yesterday I found out the same healthcare law the Republicans and trump as been arguing to repeal and replace, trump is know considering keeping most,if not all of the law. Throughout the campaign Republicans never gave us any idea as to what their plans to replace Obamacare with.
1
Trump makes his clothes in China for the same reason Carrier is moving to Mexico. It makes good business sense. My bet is that the Trump administration and the state will pay Carrier to stay here so he can say he made good on his promise even though our taxes will quietly go up to do it.
18
Scolding "low information voters" isn't going to solve the Democrats' problem.
The loudest message from the Hillary Clinton campaign, the message repeated ad nauseam in the final weeks, was "your guy is a jerk." And the response from these voters was "I don't care."
Scolding Bernie supporters in the primaries and then scolding Trump supporters in the general was basically a write-off leaving Clinton with not enough of a base of people who actually liked her. The question the HC campaign did not answer, the question the Democratic party still needs to answer, is - how are you going to win Hillary haters over? Because you need them if you want to win.
HC, Obama, etc. did not do a good enough job explaining to people how she was going to help these people, or why they needed to vote for her despite the fact they fundamentally didn't like or trust her. "I have a plan for that, read my website" clearly did not work. "Trump is worse" did not work. I heard a lot of scolding, a lot of Trump bashing, but not a lot of talk about the issues.
If the vast majority of American voters are LIVs, then it's your job running for office to inform them. Where was HC talking emphatically about climate change and why it matters? Where was HC talking about why Obamacare was such an amazing thing? Where was HC talking about jailing bankers? What was HC going to actually do about Carrier? These conversations were lost in the debates at the expense of name calling, etc.
The loudest message from the Hillary Clinton campaign, the message repeated ad nauseam in the final weeks, was "your guy is a jerk." And the response from these voters was "I don't care."
Scolding Bernie supporters in the primaries and then scolding Trump supporters in the general was basically a write-off leaving Clinton with not enough of a base of people who actually liked her. The question the HC campaign did not answer, the question the Democratic party still needs to answer, is - how are you going to win Hillary haters over? Because you need them if you want to win.
HC, Obama, etc. did not do a good enough job explaining to people how she was going to help these people, or why they needed to vote for her despite the fact they fundamentally didn't like or trust her. "I have a plan for that, read my website" clearly did not work. "Trump is worse" did not work. I heard a lot of scolding, a lot of Trump bashing, but not a lot of talk about the issues.
If the vast majority of American voters are LIVs, then it's your job running for office to inform them. Where was HC talking emphatically about climate change and why it matters? Where was HC talking about why Obamacare was such an amazing thing? Where was HC talking about jailing bankers? What was HC going to actually do about Carrier? These conversations were lost in the debates at the expense of name calling, etc.
13
How do you go about explaining something to people who won't listen and seem incapable of comprehending anything?
2
Don't oversimplify. We just tried to point out that Trump referring to "Crooked Hillary" was the most obvious display of psychopathological transference-projection since Caligula was Emperor of Rome.
1
He may come through on the promise here because it is high profile and was part of his campaign, but iff so it will be due to that and not any legislative initiative or new trade rules or tariffs.
4
"The company pointed out that it will finance four-year retraining and educational programs for employees and provide financial help." I may be wrong, and hope that I am, but it will be interesting to see, should Carrier indeed move to Mexico, how many displaced workers take up Carrier on the offer. Wonder if there are any studies/statistics from previous offers from relocating corportaions; crazy, I seem to recall federal legislation once that required such retrainiing, but perhaps I am just hungover...
14
It would be interesting to see how many jobs are available that they can apply for with the training they get and how much they will be paid.
Not sure that has been thought through!
Not sure that has been thought through!
One wonders how many of these retraining programs resemble Trump University.
I've had to relocate at times, retrain, rethink. I had complete sympathy though for these people, BUT NO MORE. They voted for the worst possible person, who will bury them, and maybe ME.
I don't care about these fools one bit.
I don't care about these fools one bit.
34
I strongly agree with your statement. Make America Fail Again that's what's going to happen
1
Oh, wow, post-election, the New York Times takes a moment to consider that Trump supporters weren't a bunch of racists and did have legitimate concerns.
Of course, they will not get what they want, though Trump might go totally against his promises by carving out a big sum of money to keep this particular company in the country, so that he can say, see? I made good. The jobs are going.
But the NYT spend most of the year denying that there was any legitimacy to the other side. Its blindness and hubris helped retain the blindness and hubris of the Clinton campaign to the real concerns of the American people.
And hey, how about that USC poll you were so dismissive of?
Of course, they will not get what they want, though Trump might go totally against his promises by carving out a big sum of money to keep this particular company in the country, so that he can say, see? I made good. The jobs are going.
But the NYT spend most of the year denying that there was any legitimacy to the other side. Its blindness and hubris helped retain the blindness and hubris of the Clinton campaign to the real concerns of the American people.
And hey, how about that USC poll you were so dismissive of?
8
Trump lost the popular vote...
2
You have been conned by a con man.
Don't complain when he doesn't give you what he promised.
Don't complain when he doesn't give you what he promised.
22
“He’s got a big mouth and talks crazy, but he’s not the establishment” ? Trump just BECAME the same establishment cons thought they were voting against. Surprise, surprise! Next surprise will be when the establishment adds tariffs to foreign-made goods and the TP's won't be able to afford them on their minimum-wage, no-bennies jobs. Or when the trade wars fire up and we can't get certain vital resources for the stuff we still make...
12
Two thoughts came to me from reading this:
1. It is criminal that Democrats could have lost these voters to Republicans. Where were the commercials showing the avalanche of obstruction by Republicans over the last eight years? Surely there are hours of self incriminating sound bites that would have provided the evidence that Republicans were at the root of the lack of progress in addressing legislation that could have been helpful.
2. The real crime is the ongoing love affair US business executives have with "shareholder value" as a mechanism of wealth creation. Surely this has acted like a corrosive separating communities, local officials, employees and local tax payers from the businesses that used to anchor wealth creation in the heartland of America. The real enemies of the American dream are American business executives who screw communities, tax payers and the employees while shipping businesses overseas in a race to the bottom.
For some years now innovation has been happening in other countries like Germany where medium size manufacturers work closely with their employees and local community to compete together. And they succeed! Germany sells appliances to China. Not America. No the vaunted US business executives manage an ever etherial brand while outsourcing manufacturing and now even innovation and research.
When are we going to learn?
1. It is criminal that Democrats could have lost these voters to Republicans. Where were the commercials showing the avalanche of obstruction by Republicans over the last eight years? Surely there are hours of self incriminating sound bites that would have provided the evidence that Republicans were at the root of the lack of progress in addressing legislation that could have been helpful.
2. The real crime is the ongoing love affair US business executives have with "shareholder value" as a mechanism of wealth creation. Surely this has acted like a corrosive separating communities, local officials, employees and local tax payers from the businesses that used to anchor wealth creation in the heartland of America. The real enemies of the American dream are American business executives who screw communities, tax payers and the employees while shipping businesses overseas in a race to the bottom.
For some years now innovation has been happening in other countries like Germany where medium size manufacturers work closely with their employees and local community to compete together. And they succeed! Germany sells appliances to China. Not America. No the vaunted US business executives manage an ever etherial brand while outsourcing manufacturing and now even innovation and research.
When are we going to learn?
18
Get a clue. They jack shareholders too.
As NY'er and early Obama supporter '08 and '12, I recall hearing about Carrier decision to move to Mexico couple of years ago in financial news and thinking what a shame, then afterward thinking "Where the hell is Obama?". Oh yeah he was too busy hitting all the media late night circuits entertaining us while reading "mean tweets" in Kimmel show and drawing up another mega-trade deal TPP...apparently we've elected Entertainer-in-Chief last 8yrs. I am no Trump fan but his rise is part of Obama's lasting legacy, history willl not be kind. Whether Trump can reverse the job loss in America's Heartland is besides the point, at least he was there at Carrier plant and listening to people anxieties and feeling their anguish- these days thats enough.
9
trump doesn't listen to no one, not even his wife much less. He would often consider advice from his children, which is weird for a grown over aged man.
1
Where the heck was Mike Pence, the governor of Indiana?
2
This sentence brings to mind Clark Gable's famous response to Vivien Leigh at the end of Gone With the Wind:
"Trump doesn't give a damn about you and will not help you at all."
Gable's response (albeit in a much different context): "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn."
I didn't vote for Trump (or HRC), but I fault HRC supporters who "label and dismiss" Trump supporters as knuckle-dragging Neanderthals. Trump may be (is, in my view) a very poor spokesman for their views. But they so badly want and deserve to have their views expressed that they've chosen Trump to do so.
That doesn't mean, though, that Trump supporters believe Trump gives a damn about any of them. I doubt many of them think about that, or "give a damn" whether he does or not. All they care about is whether Trump will do what he promised them he'd do.
I think Trump will try, because he'll want to succeed -- just as pretty much anyone who becomes President would want to do. I don't think he'll succeed at much, since I believe a President has almost no ability to change what bothers Trump supporters (US manufacturers moving production to the Far East, for example). But I'm confident he'll try.
For me, the toughest question is this:
How will Trump supporters react when they learn that Trump can't do much to help them?
Will they blame Trump, and dump him? Or will they conclude the "liberals" have unfairly blocked him (as he'll insist), and thus "double down" on their support of Republicans?
"Trump doesn't give a damn about you and will not help you at all."
Gable's response (albeit in a much different context): "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn."
I didn't vote for Trump (or HRC), but I fault HRC supporters who "label and dismiss" Trump supporters as knuckle-dragging Neanderthals. Trump may be (is, in my view) a very poor spokesman for their views. But they so badly want and deserve to have their views expressed that they've chosen Trump to do so.
That doesn't mean, though, that Trump supporters believe Trump gives a damn about any of them. I doubt many of them think about that, or "give a damn" whether he does or not. All they care about is whether Trump will do what he promised them he'd do.
I think Trump will try, because he'll want to succeed -- just as pretty much anyone who becomes President would want to do. I don't think he'll succeed at much, since I believe a President has almost no ability to change what bothers Trump supporters (US manufacturers moving production to the Far East, for example). But I'm confident he'll try.
For me, the toughest question is this:
How will Trump supporters react when they learn that Trump can't do much to help them?
Will they blame Trump, and dump him? Or will they conclude the "liberals" have unfairly blocked him (as he'll insist), and thus "double down" on their support of Republicans?
10
Sure, just like he tried with his businesses. Trump's idea of success is money for himself and lots of attention.
2
Yeah, right, it's always real smart to rely on a guy who has gone bankrupt half a dozen times to deliver on his promises.
2
Steve,
Trump has never gone bankrupt, though that's often been asserted. I don't think it matters much, but we should at least keep our facts straight.
Trump has never gone bankrupt, though that's often been asserted. I don't think it matters much, but we should at least keep our facts straight.
"The Carrier plant here is plenty profitable." It's ironic, isn't it, that unbridled capitalism is responsible for destroying the cities, towns, communities, and neighborhoods of the heartland that no invading foreign army could ever possibly reach. Maybe Guantanamo could be kept open for the hedge fund managers.
14
This has been going on since Reagan's presidency and what happened, he was reelected then Bush Sr took his place, all the while jobs continued moving south to Mexico and east to Asia. Clinton then accelerated the trend after his so-called progressive adgenda failed after 2 years, taking the Republican platform and ideals and running with them. NAFTA, WTO for starters, then selling out to Wall St with banking deregulation. Not a peep from the 'working blue collar" types in OHIO and Pennsylvania back then, and main stream Democrats gleed with joy of all the profits coming their way from the tech bubble. Even the famous Bill Maher the so-called, self-styled progressive praised the tech bubble back then and even today he still does. The Dems need a thorough house cleaning and rid themsleves of the mainstreamers and faux progressives like Maher. Trump, sold these people the Brooklyn Bridge, a successful con man. Blue collar-ites/ and union workers- you are now on the road to hell. Trump's a Scott Walker, Reagan and Sarah Palin combined - on steroids. You voters are in for a very hard reality lesson.
11
The traditional industrial workers who voted for Trump so he could "bring back their jobs" are following a pipe-dream fantasy. Trump can't do it, and he won't do anything to subtract even a penny from the 1%
These sad Trump dupes are going to be devastated when they realize that they threw away their vote on a charlatan who will take away their health care, privatize their retirement funds to their detriment and leave their kids saddled with lifelong debt. They will be poorer than ever.
These sad Trump dupes are going to be devastated when they realize that they threw away their vote on a charlatan who will take away their health care, privatize their retirement funds to their detriment and leave their kids saddled with lifelong debt. They will be poorer than ever.
19
Nothing new under the sun. The American tradition of working class people voting against their own interests goes back at least half a century now. All it takes is a charismatic guy in a suit to come along and call out all the familiar dog whistles - nationalism, xenophobia, race panic, cultural anxiety... And eight years later, after the false prosperity of speculation and deregulation leads to another crash, they might give some Democrat a chance to clean the mess up... and give that poor fool all of maybe six months to turn it all around.
17
When Bannon/Trump take over, these people will not blame them for anything. The suckers fleeced by con artists and autocrats blame those they're told to blame, not the actual wolves. Bannon will tell them to blame the Jews. Trump will tell them to blame the Muslims and the Mexicans.
Etc.
Etc.
17
So what happens when these believers who voted for what President-elect Trump promised can't deliver the dream? Seems he's already back pedalling and maybe didn't read the full job description before he threw his ball cap into the ring.
9
At what point in his life has Trump showed any consideration for people like them ?
Obama Presidency brought more manufacturing jobs than the entire presidency of the Bush presidency , Dad and son and Obama saved hundred of jobs in the Auto industry when the Republicans wanted the industry to crumble and weaken the unions at the same time .
Trump has been fighting unions in his hotels for years against their demands for higher pay and benefits and Trump voters think that all of a sudden as president , he is going to be the champion of the working class ?
I really feel sorry for them.............
Obama Presidency brought more manufacturing jobs than the entire presidency of the Bush presidency , Dad and son and Obama saved hundred of jobs in the Auto industry when the Republicans wanted the industry to crumble and weaken the unions at the same time .
Trump has been fighting unions in his hotels for years against their demands for higher pay and benefits and Trump voters think that all of a sudden as president , he is going to be the champion of the working class ?
I really feel sorry for them.............
20
Hopefully those who are still in the dark in the coal mines will see the light and make Donald Trump a one term President.
5
if they survive their black lung illness. Who in their right minds would want a job that will kill them before they're 65? Get rid of all dirty, diseased coal jobs and re-train these miners for more healthy long-lived jobs.
2
All you once smug and condescending liberals in Coast Lands, these Carrier workers are among Hillary's "Deplorables." No doubt - Trump better deliver; but at least he paid attention; from the democrats - nothing but disdain. Read these comments - the election is over and still replete with more disdain, ridicule, insult and indifference to the plight of these proud workers.
Now you know why she lost.
Now you know why she lost.
7
There seems to be plenty of acknowledgement in these comments that the Democrats ignored the working class . . . to their detriment. It is fair to point out that Trump got elected by telling the working and (what's left of) the middle class that he could deliver something he can't. Comments reflecting on this obvious fact are from readers all over the US.
1
Hillary Clinton put forth many times her policies for helping America's working poor and also immediately putting into action training in schools for their kids about to graduate high school. These people didn't want to listen, they wanted to vent and they wanted to hate the white woman. Now, they have to live with Donald Trump and his corporate buddies who are the ones who've been pulling the rug ourt fro under them since the 1970s. They've had 45 years and 12 administrations to pay attention to the roots of the changing economy over those 30+ years. ::shakes head::
5
@Jon- you haven't a clue what a liberal is. The "liberals" and progressives stand up to coroprate interests and are the heart of the working class. Mainstream centrists Democrats and all Republicans cater to the corporate interests. That's why Clinton lost, she was a puppet for Wall St. So too is Trump but he managed con the rking class. Got that? If Sanders were the nominee he would have swept the floor with Trump and won by 10 points or more. Trump is a corporatist disguised as a populist. Con man thru and thru.
1
A true snake oil salesman.
Reality government.
Reality government.
8
Well, we'll see what kind of president he's going to be. I don't want to be negative because these are real people's job at stake but I think their fears have been preyed upon by a guy who only cares about winning and making as much money for himself as possible. Corporations don't have to move their factories to other countries. They just do so to squeeze out more profit for their shareholders. Perhaps the false incentives built into the market are where we should be starting but it's highly unlikely this will occur. Instead, more than likely, Republicans will pass laws gutting Social Security and Medicare, shrinking the federal budget while increasing debt all in the name of a false trickle down economics concept. I'm sorry to say they've been duped. For that matter, Clinton wouldn't have fared better. However, it's not open season on any law that actually helps Americans. Ayn Rand (Paul Ryan's favorite philosopher) is now in the drivers seat.
6
To them I would give the same insensitive advice given to liberals: "Buck up, Snowflake!" Manufacturing are going away, either exported or replaced by technology. Why do you choose to stay in a field that is dying? Go back to school. Learn a trade. Re-tool. Do anything else but blame others for your fortune and expect us to feel sorry for you because that's what you've always done, or because that's what your father, your grandfather, ad finitum, used to do. The world is changing. Adapt. No one owes you anything.
20
"Now his [Trump's] supporters expect action. 'If he doesn’t pass that tariff, I will vote the other way next time,' warned Nicole Hargrove, who has worked at Carrier for a decade and a half and is not certain what she will do if and when her job goes to Mexico."
Well, thanks for that, Nicole. You'll vote the other way next time, but that won't be until after Trump has loaded the Supreme Court with three new Antonin Scalias, climate change has become wholly irreversible, the incipient hatred we saw and (most of us) were so horrified by during the election season has turned into actual violence and become part and parcel of daily life in America, and so on. Thanks a lot, Nicole.
Well, thanks for that, Nicole. You'll vote the other way next time, but that won't be until after Trump has loaded the Supreme Court with three new Antonin Scalias, climate change has become wholly irreversible, the incipient hatred we saw and (most of us) were so horrified by during the election season has turned into actual violence and become part and parcel of daily life in America, and so on. Thanks a lot, Nicole.
24
As usual, Americans seem incapable of examining and considering how things are done elsewhere. The Germans have very strict regulations concerning German corporations outsourcing and moving to cheaper labor markets. At the very least, corporations willing to do so face financial penalties and higher taxes for doing so to pay for the social safety net enjoyed by German workers, who also have strong trade unions. And they have the most stable economy in W. Europe.
11
I didn't vote for Trump. Voted for Dr. Jill Stein (Bernie Sander was not on the Ballot or a registered write-in in Massachusetts).
(Hillary Clinton won both the popular vote and all 11 electoral votes in Massachusetts and I am an unenrolled voter so I will not entertain any Democratic Party recriminations thank you.)
I know that Bernie Sanders and Jill Stein would (and will) do everything possible to keep Carrier from moving their plant to Mexico. I have no doubt that Clinton would not have lifted a finger.
So now Mr. Trump its up to you to stop Carrier from moving this plant to Mexico. Put up or shut up. Dr. Jill Stein put her personal ass on the line and sat down in front of the bulldozers. Do you have the guts that she has to sit down in front of the moving trucks? You will have the secret service to protect you from the rent-a-cops after all.
(Hillary Clinton won both the popular vote and all 11 electoral votes in Massachusetts and I am an unenrolled voter so I will not entertain any Democratic Party recriminations thank you.)
I know that Bernie Sanders and Jill Stein would (and will) do everything possible to keep Carrier from moving their plant to Mexico. I have no doubt that Clinton would not have lifted a finger.
So now Mr. Trump its up to you to stop Carrier from moving this plant to Mexico. Put up or shut up. Dr. Jill Stein put her personal ass on the line and sat down in front of the bulldozers. Do you have the guts that she has to sit down in front of the moving trucks? You will have the secret service to protect you from the rent-a-cops after all.
4
Yes indeed, your vote wouldn't have made any difference anyway, under the Electoral College System. Why did you waste your time to vote at all?
1
Sorry to break it to the Trump voters who pinned their hopes on The Donald's vague promises to bring manufacturing jobs back to America, but you were used. Donald Trump doesn't care about you. He just wanted your votes.
11
It remains to be seen if the trappings of nationalist populism will be enough to satisfy America's disaffected white voters. Will rolling back healthcare, eliminating abortion, deporting even more illegal aliens than the Obama administration, gutting the EPA and climate accords, halting immigration from Muslim countries and pulling out of NAFTA and the TPP trade agreements be a good enough substitute for actually improving peoples lives? Will white, male, Republican control of the entire government and the ensuing wicked trade war and global recession satisfy their need to punish the elites for "leaving them behind"? Probably not.
1
God will respond to the Republican agenda.
1
Another thing to watch for is that since Trump made such a big deal out of this particular situation he may try to finagle some back door way to essentially subsidize Carrier to stay. Of course it couldn't look like a subsidy since that would violate core conservative free market principles. But from Carrier's perspective they would need to be made whole somehow in order to keep effectively competing.
4
Trump will cannot do one thing to bring those jobs back and they should have known that before they ever voted for him.
The jobs that are available in America are medical care, high technological, engineering, physics, science, math and renewable energy!
The jobs that are available in America are medical care, high technological, engineering, physics, science, math and renewable energy!
11
Really? When he doesn't manufacture any of HIS PRODUCTS in the USA? Dream on, Carrier Plant employees....
22
Have these people never heard of due diligence? As the late Molly Ivins used to say, "Look at the record, look at the record, look at the record." Donald Trump may not have a record from public office, but he has a long record in the business world: one full of fraud, bankruptcy, and not paying his bills. Oh, and looting his businesses (and his charity!) for his own benefit. I'll be surprised if Donald delivers on *anything* he has promised.
19
I have to admit that I am a little scared for even my own job. IBM has created Watson to be able to answer questions, do research, financial analysis, and this is just the beginning. What happens when Watson or the like is able to sell products, stock shelves, take care of your kids, deliver packages, teach a school class, clean your home? It's only a matter of time before technology is created to take over those jobs no one ever thought could be outsourced. So, before I sit back on my liberal high horse and say, you have been duped, you should have gotten more education to the Trump supporters, I think about how I might feel when a computer takes my position.
5
At some point humans will be reduced to giving robots a reason to exist.
1
A lot of readers are commenting on the tragedy of the Carrier workers' job loss and some of the more immediate and local causes. But if we really take a GIANT step back for the broadest possible perspective -- including such advances as robotics replacing human workers and the limits of natural resources -- then we will sooner or later be confronted by an unavoidable challenge: A nationwide population crisis that can only be addressed with early-term abortion. The idea of population control through abortion is at least as old as the time of Aristotle. The most ardent and/or faith-based "pro life" advocates in will not be spared hunger or poverty or homelessness if America cannot find a solution -- presently unknown -- to the vanishing need for workers in an increasingly technological world. The struggle between these two enormous forces -- pro-life vs pro-survival -- is probably closer than many of us would like to believe.
6
War between humans is as old as tribal competition for limited resources by growth of population.
1
I am a Bernie Sanders Democrat who reluctantly voted for HRC. I am going to keep an open mind on the issue of free trade and give Trump a chance to fulfill his promises. Do I dislike almost everything else about Trump? A resounding yes, but this issue is the main reason Democrats lost this election and many Senate elections.
I'm not going to denigrate all working class, rural whites as racist redneck rubes. Hearing that over and over only pushes them further away from the Democratic party. I work with conservatives, some of whom voted for Obama in '08, and they are not bad people.
The economy, jobs and incomes will always trump all when it comes to how people, both white and minority, vote. Racism, misogyny, BLM, trans rights, abortion, guns were not the reasons Hillary lost.
These rust belt states have had their economies and towns hollowed out by free trade. Limousine liberals like Obama and the Clintons are all for NAFTA and the TPP. That's precisely why she lost states she should've won in the Rust Belt. Being pro free trade also hurts working class minorities too not just whites. Working class whites will vote Democrat, as they did in '08, if the Dems promote the right policies.
The elites in the Democratic party need to take a good hard look in the mirror and get out of their bubbles in DC, NYC, the Hamptons, Hollywood and Silicon Valley and promote policies that help the average American. Only then can we take back the Presidency, the Senate and the House.
I'm not going to denigrate all working class, rural whites as racist redneck rubes. Hearing that over and over only pushes them further away from the Democratic party. I work with conservatives, some of whom voted for Obama in '08, and they are not bad people.
The economy, jobs and incomes will always trump all when it comes to how people, both white and minority, vote. Racism, misogyny, BLM, trans rights, abortion, guns were not the reasons Hillary lost.
These rust belt states have had their economies and towns hollowed out by free trade. Limousine liberals like Obama and the Clintons are all for NAFTA and the TPP. That's precisely why she lost states she should've won in the Rust Belt. Being pro free trade also hurts working class minorities too not just whites. Working class whites will vote Democrat, as they did in '08, if the Dems promote the right policies.
The elites in the Democratic party need to take a good hard look in the mirror and get out of their bubbles in DC, NYC, the Hamptons, Hollywood and Silicon Valley and promote policies that help the average American. Only then can we take back the Presidency, the Senate and the House.
7
Dude, if you're in Austin, you ain't in the boonies. What's your beef?
1
yah but i think they might deserve that label by proving that their not racist they vote in a known racist. makes sense to me
1
President Obama worked hard to achieve a middle class lifestyle long before he was elected President. HRC also came from an ordinary background and worker he way up. You really need to get a clue.
1
This is the most frustrating part. All these workers who rightly should be angry blame a president for the government failing to help them all the while continuously putting republicans into congress. So many of these people don't know have congress and the presidency works so they just keep shooting themselves in the foot.
10
I have a BS and an MBA from a top 20 school and now work for a company that lays off people every year to enable the firm to maintain cash flow, pay the dividend and increase EPS. They fire 50 year olds at at very fast clip and have no intention to stop. Wall Street demands growth and earnings and when a company can't deliver they demand lays offs. There is no one left to do the work and believe me our business and customers suffer but the dividend must be paid. So we all march off the abyss.
Carrier and UTC are extremely profitable. This company made the decision to move to satisfy investors demands. So tell me...why do investors and corporations deserve lower tax rates than workers? That is the republican way and that is Trumps plan. He will get his first and after no paying anything ever he will then eliminate estate taxes.
You have all been Trumped.
Carrier and UTC are extremely profitable. This company made the decision to move to satisfy investors demands. So tell me...why do investors and corporations deserve lower tax rates than workers? That is the republican way and that is Trumps plan. He will get his first and after no paying anything ever he will then eliminate estate taxes.
You have all been Trumped.
30
Commenter Ron Cohen puts it very well:
"Today's working class – out of work and out of hope, their lives and communities shattered – had nowhere else to turn, so they turned to Trump."
Many of us had the "luxury" of rejecting Trump -- who, frankly, strikes me as a total jerk -- and I suspect many people who voted for him think he's a total jerk too.
But, exactly as Mr. Cohen writes, many of those people felt they "had nowhere else to turn, so they turned to Trump." I have no doubt that many of them winced, as the rest of us did, when we heard Trump saying disgusting things on the infamous "Access Hollywood" recording, and one could give many other examples of disgusting Trump behavior. The fact remained, however -- or so Trump's supporters concluded -- that they "had nowhere else to turn, so they turned to Trump."
And so, if HRC supporters and other Democrats want to win back the people who voted Trump into the White House, maybe they should spend more time listening to what those people have to say, rather than simply "labeling and dismissing" them all as knuckle-dragging Neanderthals.
"Today's working class – out of work and out of hope, their lives and communities shattered – had nowhere else to turn, so they turned to Trump."
Many of us had the "luxury" of rejecting Trump -- who, frankly, strikes me as a total jerk -- and I suspect many people who voted for him think he's a total jerk too.
But, exactly as Mr. Cohen writes, many of those people felt they "had nowhere else to turn, so they turned to Trump." I have no doubt that many of them winced, as the rest of us did, when we heard Trump saying disgusting things on the infamous "Access Hollywood" recording, and one could give many other examples of disgusting Trump behavior. The fact remained, however -- or so Trump's supporters concluded -- that they "had nowhere else to turn, so they turned to Trump."
And so, if HRC supporters and other Democrats want to win back the people who voted Trump into the White House, maybe they should spend more time listening to what those people have to say, rather than simply "labeling and dismissing" them all as knuckle-dragging Neanderthals.
9
I can't speak for what individuals write or say. But I never heard any Democrat leader, or Hillary, call anyone a knuckle-dragging Neanderthal. I am sick and tired of hearing this lie repeated as it it's the chiseled in stone. Hillary spoke day after day after day with average people. She listened. The truth is, tell people what they want to hear and many will believe you. Voila...Trump is POTUS.
2
I read what they write here. I find that their demands are often schizoid and erratic, with no visible connection to a defined objective.
2
Promises of good manufacturing jobs coming back to the rust are like promises of a Mexico funded wall... "a great campaign device" according to Gingrich. Sounds better than "a great campaign lie."
5
This would have been a great article to publish in October.
10
Then they are dumber than a bag of rocks. Trump thinks these people are losers, and will soon make their lives worse than before.
8
Washington and Corporations have failed to harness technology and globalization to benefit all segments of our society. If Trump brings a sharp and sustained focus to addressing these as one nation, shaking up the establishment that has largely looked after itself, we may yet redirect our energies and investments in renewing the American Dream. Obama spoke of the 'fierce urgency of change'. Sanders and Trump renewed that call. Let's get behind thinking through and driving the change, as one nation.
1
oh well, it does not matter. Neither the republicans or the democrats have any answers to the problem since they are in fact the root of the problem.
2
What exactly makes anyone think that if Carrier doesn't move to Mexico to be competitive then they will re-open a money losing factory in the US? They won't. A/C units will simply be built in Costa Rica or Thailand. Shipping costs these days are minute on a per pound basis. Any manufacturing plant that is going to be built de novo will not be using these laborers. Instead, it will be using robots and automation and perhaps 1/2 of the staff required by an older factory. This is why manufacturing job growth in China is decelerating rapidly and why other countries can no longer take advantage of the China model. Those jobs don't actually exist anymore.
5
It should be clear that losing prospects for economic survival, let alone self-improvement, will motivate people to vote radically to try to save themselves and their families. We should get that but we don't.
I voted for Clinton without regret of apology but she was the wrong messenger at the wrong time for our country today. For this, the Democratic Party must be held accountable. Hell-bent for a Clintonian coronation, the Party ignored the tea leaves that ought to have pushed it in a different direction.
President-elect Trump is a disaster-in-waiting. Don't blame many of those who voted for him, though. People are hurting and to date nobody has cared enough to put their needs ahead of partisan posturing. Sadly, this isn't about to change.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
I voted for Clinton without regret of apology but she was the wrong messenger at the wrong time for our country today. For this, the Democratic Party must be held accountable. Hell-bent for a Clintonian coronation, the Party ignored the tea leaves that ought to have pushed it in a different direction.
President-elect Trump is a disaster-in-waiting. Don't blame many of those who voted for him, though. People are hurting and to date nobody has cared enough to put their needs ahead of partisan posturing. Sadly, this isn't about to change.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
5
clinton woukd have won if it wasnt for Comey and his corrupt neptotism. donald claim thatbhe would shake up washington but he had to cheat to win. some change.
2
So the problem is that Democrats need to get better at selling folks crazy bill of goods, because it obviously worked for Trump.
I feel for any person who has lost their livelihood; but I doubt those jobs are returning.
I feel for any person who has lost their livelihood; but I doubt those jobs are returning.
7
Thank you for this article about Carrier workers and why they voted for Trump. We need many more like it and we need the NYT to follow-up, every three months or so, on how things are turning out for these Trump voters.
What is clear from the article is that these are simple people. Their lives are small and local. Their reason for picking Trump was the hope that he would follow through on his promise to call their CEO and demand their $25 an hour jobs back. Simple. Talk about a single issue voter.
I don’t think they understand the full tragedy of voting for Trump and I doubt they can articulate why the entire planet is aghast at their decision. I would love for the NYT to push them about the full consequences of their vote. For example, they seem like decent people and I presume they want clean air, clean water, and would rather avoid a climate catastrophe of the sort now looming towards us. They don’t seem like the kind of folks who would support a climate denier as head of the EPA – do they even know this is happening?
It would be great if Paul Krugman and others could go to this community and give some lectures on the bigger world around them to put their lives into context. If these people don’t read the NYT, the NYT needs to go them and get them curious about the world (and sell some subscriptions) so that next time they will vote with a better understanding of the complexity of the world and not be suckers.
What is clear from the article is that these are simple people. Their lives are small and local. Their reason for picking Trump was the hope that he would follow through on his promise to call their CEO and demand their $25 an hour jobs back. Simple. Talk about a single issue voter.
I don’t think they understand the full tragedy of voting for Trump and I doubt they can articulate why the entire planet is aghast at their decision. I would love for the NYT to push them about the full consequences of their vote. For example, they seem like decent people and I presume they want clean air, clean water, and would rather avoid a climate catastrophe of the sort now looming towards us. They don’t seem like the kind of folks who would support a climate denier as head of the EPA – do they even know this is happening?
It would be great if Paul Krugman and others could go to this community and give some lectures on the bigger world around them to put their lives into context. If these people don’t read the NYT, the NYT needs to go them and get them curious about the world (and sell some subscriptions) so that next time they will vote with a better understanding of the complexity of the world and not be suckers.
14
Adorable that they think we'll have free elections next time.
7
After reading the hopes expressed by the Trump voters in this article, look at the names of those on the short lists for Cabinet positions. You will notice the number of nominees who are politicians who lost their elections. In other words, they have already shown themselves out of sync with voters. Having lived in the state of Louisiana during the entire Jindal era, I can attest to how much that was the case even here in a very conservative state. Jindal's refusal of the Affordable Care Act to the point of even refusing the expansion of Medicaid resulted in abysmal ratings. And guess what--the following gubernatorial election was won by a Democrat (John Bel Edwards) who promised to reverse that policy (and did).
8
Trump has promised to bring jobs back to the USA and more importantly create jobs in the USA. The former, a promise to Carrier employees, was campaign rhetoric and the second is likely to happen as both he and Democrats favor a major infrastructure program. A recent observation that has received a lot of attention and deserves more noted that anti-Trump voters took his comments literally but not seriously and his supporters took them seriously but not literally. That is the clue to how the election turned out and how to view the future.
2
You guys (and gals) who voted for Trump and down ticket for the Republicans are great! You have been scammed yet again by the Republicans who are highly skilled con artists. Of course Donald will do nothing for you. It was always about Donald. Of course the Republicans will do nothing for you. It was always about keeping their jobs and sucking up to the wealthy and corporations. You guys are suckers and never learn from the past. Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! .................... The joke's on you and of course the rest of us who will have to suffer the consequences you your gullibility.
11
What Obama needed to do - and what he didn't do - was remind these people of all the bills he put forward in Congress that would have helped them -but that were filibustered by the Republicans. The theme should have been:
Ask The Republicans why they refused to help you when (since 2009) they filibibusterd the following:
Obama infrastructure bill
highway bill,
Bipartisan Transportation and Housing Bill
Equal Pay for Women
Minimum wage increase
Creating American Jobs and Ending Offshoring Act
Bring Jobs Home Act –( stop tax breaks for moving jobs and production facilities out of the country)
Teachers and First Responders Back to Work Act
Student loan reform –
Extended unemployment benefits
Employee Free Choice Act (EFCA) — let working people join unions –
Public Safety Employer-Employee Cooperation Act – let public safety officers join unions,
Yes, these bills were ALL stopped by the GOP, and the people who would have benefited the most from them, appear to have voted for TRUMP.
Ask The Republicans why they refused to help you when (since 2009) they filibibusterd the following:
Obama infrastructure bill
highway bill,
Bipartisan Transportation and Housing Bill
Equal Pay for Women
Minimum wage increase
Creating American Jobs and Ending Offshoring Act
Bring Jobs Home Act –( stop tax breaks for moving jobs and production facilities out of the country)
Teachers and First Responders Back to Work Act
Student loan reform –
Extended unemployment benefits
Employee Free Choice Act (EFCA) — let working people join unions –
Public Safety Employer-Employee Cooperation Act – let public safety officers join unions,
Yes, these bills were ALL stopped by the GOP, and the people who would have benefited the most from them, appear to have voted for TRUMP.
29
So here's the problem. Trump only does what he says he will do if he thinks he can make a profit from it. It's his mindset. It's why he is rich.
So for the next four years the US is going to be generating profits for Donald Trump, not following up on promises that he made to a bunch of chumps at rallies that ran like 19th century medicine shows.
At the end of four years he exits, and some Democrat will have to spend the next four years trying to clean up the mess that the Republicans have left behind, taking the blame for the long-term damage they do to the economy and to society.
It's like being in a film loop.
So for the next four years the US is going to be generating profits for Donald Trump, not following up on promises that he made to a bunch of chumps at rallies that ran like 19th century medicine shows.
At the end of four years he exits, and some Democrat will have to spend the next four years trying to clean up the mess that the Republicans have left behind, taking the blame for the long-term damage they do to the economy and to society.
It's like being in a film loop.
9
WJG, you nailed there!
1
I feel for these people, but their die was cast when they chose dead end factory work over an education. Elon Musk is right. Automation will eliminate all manual labor sooner rather than later. Just wait when they find out Ryan and his crew of thieves intend to gut Medicare, Social security and anything else they are entitled to in order to give tax cuts to the uber wealthy.
9
Good luck.
2
As I watch Trump fill his cabinet with all the puppets of the 1% he railed about during the election, I have more faith than ever that he will accomplish nothing other than further enriching the wealthy.
It's a shame that some people always have to learn the hard way, but if that is what it takes, so be it.
It's a shame that some people always have to learn the hard way, but if that is what it takes, so be it.
5
Good luck and dream on.
4
If Trump goes against all common business sense and the wishes of his corporate stakeholders to stop these moves, more power to him. But I am practicing my E-Trade baby "I'm shocked" face for when it doesn't happen. That face will come in handy again when his supporters inevitably fail to hold him accountable.
greatest bait and switch ever. The rumblings are already happening you can feel the tension.Trojan horse Trump is the most impeachable president ever and repubs are frothing at the mouth for Pence.Blind Trusts,conflicts of interest,roger stone warning of reince priebus appointment,possible assault of minor chargesTrump talking about preserving most hated parts of Obamacare like no pre existing conditions(which benefits the ever hated HIV positives)oh yeah and the Establishment wins again.Trumpster tears follow,wages fall,jobs evaporate middle class loses again.
3
It is wrong to vote for a candidate because of a singular stand such as "He will save my job", or "He is an outsider", or He doesn't represent my class." A candidate represents a set of political, moral, and idealistic values. That is what your vote signifies, your acceptance of those values. Each of these people show that they have little or no understanding of the value of their vote. By voting for Trump they have condoned the values that he has espoused, good and bad. "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
6
It's the economy, Stupid! Yep, you've been Trumped, once again, by a clown making promises that can't be kept.
6
I really feel for these people. What I very much dislike are the promises a con tells them.
3
The Republican Party has never been on your side. It's business, remember? And you elected a businessman who doesn't even pay his taxes. He's smart (as he said). Sadly, all of those hoping to wake up in 1958 will be sorely disappointed. I'd start on Plan B immediately.
2
True enough, but ...:
"Professor Krugman has written time and time again that the economic recovery act was too small and placed too much emphasis on tax cuts and not enough on spending at a time when the US government could borrow at near 0% interest."
Even if the US borrows money and pays no interest at all, it's still borrowing money. That money gets spent today, but our children and grand-children pay for it later. Nearly all countries (and businesses and individuals) borrow money, and I see nothing wrong with that.
To a point: When a country owes nearly $20 trillion (that's with a "T" -- some number followed by 12 zeroes), that country's maneuvering room gets a bit constrained. For example, if the Fed decides the economy is "overheating" and wants to slow things down by raising interest rates, it must keep in mind that just a 1% increase in government-bond rates will increase our national interest costs by $200 billion. That strikes me as a "constraint," and should make us think very long and hard about increasing government spending.
"Professor Krugman has written time and time again that the economic recovery act was too small and placed too much emphasis on tax cuts and not enough on spending at a time when the US government could borrow at near 0% interest."
Even if the US borrows money and pays no interest at all, it's still borrowing money. That money gets spent today, but our children and grand-children pay for it later. Nearly all countries (and businesses and individuals) borrow money, and I see nothing wrong with that.
To a point: When a country owes nearly $20 trillion (that's with a "T" -- some number followed by 12 zeroes), that country's maneuvering room gets a bit constrained. For example, if the Fed decides the economy is "overheating" and wants to slow things down by raising interest rates, it must keep in mind that just a 1% increase in government-bond rates will increase our national interest costs by $200 billion. That strikes me as a "constraint," and should make us think very long and hard about increasing government spending.
2
So many defeatists here. If Germany can make manufacturing a priority, why can't we?
4
Because it would require major tax increases, and Americans won't go for that. No candidate or party would ever get elected on a platform calling for that!
1
Because Germany has more safeguards in place for their workers and have a very good welfare system. both things Americans view as akin to socialism
2
The election of Trump shows among other things the breakdown not only of the American media, but also the abominable job our general education system has done. People should have been able to see through the hollowness of Trump's promises and the practicality of Hillary's proposals even if she never managed to assert that she felt the working people's pain.
6
An unfortunate situation, one that many in the U.S. manufacturing sector have faced, are currently facing or will be facing in the near future. No different than the agriculture sector, which once employed the vast majority of the U.S. workforce.
The forces of change will continue, and a call to Carrier by Mr. Trump is akin to sticking a thumb in the proverbial small hole in the dike.
For those who insist in clinging on to those high paying manufacturing jobs, they come with the risk of being eliminated, either through technology or relocation to a lower wage location.
Today many of us drive automobiles produced partially if not totally off shore. The same is true of the Walmart shopper, where those low prices are mostly due to off shore produced product.
In the global economy, of which we are a part, regarding manufactured goods, the U.S. is a deep consumer, not a producer.
It is a very unfortunate situation, one that is now very challenging for many many young college graduates as well. Get a four year degree in most areas of study, including business, and the best (if any) job offer comes with an $18 - 20/ hour wage, below prior norms.
The remedy is not simple, and will not be resolved by the Trump administration. Good that he might make that call and extend Carrier's presence in Indiana for a short period of time. However, long lasting remedies have yet to be articulated.
God bless the Carrier employees in Indiana, but don't get your hopes too high.
The forces of change will continue, and a call to Carrier by Mr. Trump is akin to sticking a thumb in the proverbial small hole in the dike.
For those who insist in clinging on to those high paying manufacturing jobs, they come with the risk of being eliminated, either through technology or relocation to a lower wage location.
Today many of us drive automobiles produced partially if not totally off shore. The same is true of the Walmart shopper, where those low prices are mostly due to off shore produced product.
In the global economy, of which we are a part, regarding manufactured goods, the U.S. is a deep consumer, not a producer.
It is a very unfortunate situation, one that is now very challenging for many many young college graduates as well. Get a four year degree in most areas of study, including business, and the best (if any) job offer comes with an $18 - 20/ hour wage, below prior norms.
The remedy is not simple, and will not be resolved by the Trump administration. Good that he might make that call and extend Carrier's presence in Indiana for a short period of time. However, long lasting remedies have yet to be articulated.
God bless the Carrier employees in Indiana, but don't get your hopes too high.
2
I continue to be reminded of Saul Steinberg's New Yorker cover of March 29, 1976 - "View of the World From Ninth Avenue" when the NYT continues to push their "agenda" vs simply reporting the news. The NYT entire election coverage for the past 16 months has been an effort to shape voters minds through biased myopic views in the bowels of Manhattan vs what really happens in 90% of the rest of the US (except for a blip in Silicon Valley or Chicago). Well - this latest election shows what happens when the rest of red America gets tired of being looked down on from those blue blooded buffoons that think red states are just worthless places that unfortunately extend the travel time to the west coast.
4
Why wouldn't the Times be centered on "the bowels of Manhattan"? It is the New York Times! Your Atlanta Journal-Constitution probably reflects Georgia.
How many actual blue-staters do you ever tal to? I live in a modest middle-class neighborhood, seldom travel to the West Coast, and spend zero time looking down on people from other parts of the country. My opinion of Trump is based directly on the bigoted words I heard emanating from his very own mouth, starting with birtherism. Shameful. Just shameful.
How many actual blue-staters do you ever tal to? I live in a modest middle-class neighborhood, seldom travel to the West Coast, and spend zero time looking down on people from other parts of the country. My opinion of Trump is based directly on the bigoted words I heard emanating from his very own mouth, starting with birtherism. Shameful. Just shameful.
1
On Thursday both Detroit newspapers quoted top UAW brass that are eager to help Trump tear up NAFTA and impose tariffs on cars imported from Mexico and China. You cynics should at least give Trump a chance to work some magic. France, Germany, Japan protect their factory workers — we need to start.
5
This is Maslow's Hierarchy. The democrats, with Hillary, were complaining about Trump's bigotry, misogyny, xenophobia, and narcissistic behavior (definitely "esteem" level or above), while Trump taps into his supporters level of "safety," by supporting tariffs, re-negotiating trade deals, and so forth.
Hillary should have combatted this by explaining what happens when tariffs go into effect and trade deals are struck down. This along with proposing an alternate solution for companies like Carrier moving divisions overseas, like asking everyone to take a pay cut including management, or resetting profit expectations with shareholders, or explaining to the workers what the problem is and letting them come up with solutions, could have moved some of Trump's supporters over to the democratic side.
Remember from your school days...safety always trumps all the other levels except physiological. If Trump can't help those on the safety level, they may go down a level, not up, god forbid!
https://www.google.com/search?q=maslov's Pyramid&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari#imgrc=MnbXDfebgiuRyM:
Hillary should have combatted this by explaining what happens when tariffs go into effect and trade deals are struck down. This along with proposing an alternate solution for companies like Carrier moving divisions overseas, like asking everyone to take a pay cut including management, or resetting profit expectations with shareholders, or explaining to the workers what the problem is and letting them come up with solutions, could have moved some of Trump's supporters over to the democratic side.
Remember from your school days...safety always trumps all the other levels except physiological. If Trump can't help those on the safety level, they may go down a level, not up, god forbid!
https://www.google.com/search?q=maslov's Pyramid&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari#imgrc=MnbXDfebgiuRyM:
1
Hate to tell those hard working people but he also ran yelling about Term Limitations which is also never going to happen. Once he sees how much his buddies love their high paying, benefit leeching jobs, that goes down the toilet as well. It's a money game first and foremost and they intend on keeping it that way.
3
You've got to feel sorry for the poor guy who said Trump's election is "my World Series." He's going to be even more bitter when he discovers -- rather quickly -- that the con artist who has spent years ripping off American workers and not giving a damn about anything else but himself isn't about to change. Nor is the Republican party.
7
I don't feel sorry for them. They voted for a mean spirited bigot who treats people like dirt, lies and cheats. These people deserve everything that's coming to them.
2
So much for the wishes of the Republican base - I believe The Republican Party elite decided in June that they will impeach Donald Trump if he became President. I predict that they already have the evidence to impeach him: racketeering, fraud, etc. However, I also believe that behind closed doors, Paul Ryan et. al., will give Donald Trump an ultimatum: Cooperate with our agenda or we will impeach you. My further prediction is that Donald Trump will cooperate for about a year and then he will resign.
The Republican base will find, in the end, that their party elites have betrayed them and that electing their “populist” President, hasn’t gotten them anywhere. When the Republican Party has placed our nation at risk by choosing a man so patently unfit to be our President, the world will not be sympathetic of their betrayal.
The Republican base will find, in the end, that their party elites have betrayed them and that electing their “populist” President, hasn’t gotten them anywhere. When the Republican Party has placed our nation at risk by choosing a man so patently unfit to be our President, the world will not be sympathetic of their betrayal.
4
There are more people in income difficulties than those who voted Trump.
You know what that may portend.
You know what that may portend.
2
Trumpsters, let me know how that works out for you.
7
The only way to help workers in any field to gain parity in wages with those who are seeing the larger share of a company's success is to have a Constitutional amendment requiring a specific ratio that ties the earning power of management to workers and does not allow for she'll companies, using outsourcing, and requires companies to apply the same level of benefits and retirement resources to all workers...
How likely is that to happen in a country that worships the "free enterprise" system and points to a "free market" a the fairest judge of success?
It is only going to get worse...robotics are improving, education for most is not...and the Republicans make no secret they would love to outsource almost any public service area to the private sector...
It is also possible that in electing Trump, who truly has no moral compass IMO, America's system of government itself is at risk.
2016 might be our last election...
How likely is that to happen in a country that worships the "free enterprise" system and points to a "free market" a the fairest judge of success?
It is only going to get worse...robotics are improving, education for most is not...and the Republicans make no secret they would love to outsource almost any public service area to the private sector...
It is also possible that in electing Trump, who truly has no moral compass IMO, America's system of government itself is at risk.
2016 might be our last election...
4
I guess they will be voting the other way next time around. When will people realize the only agenda Trump has is for himself, he doesn't care about anyone else. We are now confronting the ugliest of what American has to offer. JPM
3
I didn't vote for Trump,and I didn't care much for Hillary either,but the reality is that while Trump stated he is going to be "A President for All Americans",once he gets into the "Big Chair" he will turn into a politician and the "Forgotten People" who voted for him will still be forgotten.
2
"I hate losers." - President Elect, Donald J. Trump
6
In the months before before Carrier's announcement to move to Mexico they were deep into negotiations with a local automation company to nearly fully automate the Indianapolis plant. Carrier decided it would be cheaper to use Mexican labor over converting their plant to automation. The jobs are not coming back if a tariff is imposed. Robots will take the jobs instead.
5
Sometimes "Uneducated" means just what it implies. The ability to believe there is any way high-paying jobs are coming back for those without college degrees is itself evidence of the value of a college degree. It betokens an inability to grasp the interconnectedness, trade-offs and dynamics of a global market in goods, services and labor and one's own place and prospects in it. For the unreal dream of high-paying, low-skill, low-education jobs that would raise them up, make them more independent, and insulate them from more of the hardships and vicissitudes of life, these are voters who have thrown away the chance to shore up and improve the social goods that would stand them in good stead regardless their employment prospects in a rapidly changing global economy: health care, child care, a higher minimum wage, equal pay for half their family members, consumer and worker safety and financial regulation, environmental protection, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and the list goes on. The GOP, with Trump as their ignorant, albeit temperamental figurehead, will do their best to gut every last social program upon which most Americans depend, whether they are educated enough to realize it or not, while crash-course escalating the lock the rich, powerful and privileged have on the future course of American politics. Sometimes, to quote Forrest Gump, "Stupid is as stupid does." Voting for Trump was doing some serious stupid.
6
We're All Kansans now.
3
I'm a resident of the city that Carrier intends to move to. I feel for the workers of the Indianapolis plant. However, to them, I'd like to ask this: we use plenty of air conditioning here in Mexico. Why should we buy an imported Carrier unit instead of a locally made competitor? This cuts both ways. What is needed is to raise the wages of Mexican workers to US levels. Unfortunately, China and India are waiting for your jobs, too.
6
Carrier can expand their employees' employment opportunities by enrolling them in language school to learn Russian.
If the president elect disappoints his base, they can "fire" him. Four years from now. For a glacier that is in irreversible meltdown, that's a lifetime. For a poor woman who cannot get contraceptive services, that's four more babies...need I go on?
And just in case you have not noticed, the only outsider coming to DC is Trump. All the other new faces are a bunch of hacks, except maybe Ben Carson,so he'll pray for you.
So while I am a little disappointed, maybe there's still time for Sarah Palin and Kim Kardashian to get cabinet positions.
If the president elect disappoints his base, they can "fire" him. Four years from now. For a glacier that is in irreversible meltdown, that's a lifetime. For a poor woman who cannot get contraceptive services, that's four more babies...need I go on?
And just in case you have not noticed, the only outsider coming to DC is Trump. All the other new faces are a bunch of hacks, except maybe Ben Carson,so he'll pray for you.
So while I am a little disappointed, maybe there's still time for Sarah Palin and Kim Kardashian to get cabinet positions.
2
Sadly, these people have been Trumped. Wait until they find out the plans to decimate social security and their health insurance. Hope they don't live anywhere near land that can be fracked to pollute their water or oil to be pumped on federal lands. And if they're people of color, a Muslim, an Indian, a Mexican, an immigrant or even a woman, be prepared to be frisked, groped, or assaulted, it's open season for bigots, racists, and misogynists. He'll soon be your leader and it's coming from the top on down.
5
What's going to happen when the job losses start attacking the more skilled workforce? Watson like computers that can process tons of information taking the place of accountants, auditors, staticians, etc. There will still be a need for brains at the end but just not as many. This is the way it's going. Robots take on manufacturing, robots take on thinking. Humans sit around doing what?
2
Hey Folks, Its P. T. Barnum Time here in America. "There's a sucker born every minute." I wonder when Tramp will open his circus? Oh yeah he is already working on it.
#KlownKarKabinet
#KlownKarKabinet
5
Raise the federal minimum wage on all jobs to a living wage. Very simple solution. Service jobs continue to grow as do healthcare jobs and if all those so-called low level jobs were raised, people could find decent jobs. Corporations pay no taxes (most of them) so raising wages would make up for what they do not pay in taxes.
2
Right wingers are against that.
> The company pointed out that it will finance four-year retraining and educational programs for employees and provide financial help.
Perhaps some Spanish lessons would be in order. That and some financial help to help them to move to Monterrey.
Perhaps some Spanish lessons would be in order. That and some financial help to help them to move to Monterrey.
2
Helping these factory workers lose their hopeless ignorance about how our economy actually works should be Trump's plan to get them back to good jobs.
Please accept my unsolicited advice: Invest in robotics companies, if you haven't already. Also, get to know your HVAC repair person. You'll be getting yours fixed a lot more often than you'll be buying a new one. If you do replace yours, don't let them haul it off. There will be a demand for a used AC units.
The job gains or retention will be limited and short lived. Big automation is coming and will be here sooner than most are thinking. Trucking will be gone as a major employer in, at the most, 10 years time. If we don't want to live in an Orwellian dystopia, we need to consider radical policies. Universal healthcare and income programs need to be on the table.
The job gains or retention will be limited and short lived. Big automation is coming and will be here sooner than most are thinking. Trucking will be gone as a major employer in, at the most, 10 years time. If we don't want to live in an Orwellian dystopia, we need to consider radical policies. Universal healthcare and income programs need to be on the table.
3
Manufacturing jobs are not coming back, and it has nothing to do with immigrants and government. It's technology. Even plants that are still open and producing a lot are operating with a fraction of the workers that they once had. I read an article recently about how disillusioned these rust belt workers feel and how tired they are of "liberal elites" who promise them job training, when they don't WANT job training. The article said that what these clueless elites don't get is that some people want to work pouring concrete or laying down brick and not with computers in an office, and they feel disrespected when job training is brought up. But those blue collar jobs aren't. coming. back. These are global forces at work, and you will have to adapt. That might be moving (yes! your ancestors did it when they came here, big time!) and it might be training for new jobs. Elites themselves do this -- they move when necessary and they keep learning. Stop insisting that everything is going back to some ideal past because it isn't. Take charge of your future and take advantage of opportunities to adapt and learn new skills. Those jobs AREN'T COMING BACK.
4
I'm sorry for you but you've been had. Your jobs aren't coming back--the world has changed. Do everything you have to do to get yourself an education. I know it's hard--work at a menial job and go to school at the same time, but it can be done. I and many other people have done it. And stop having children until you can afford them. And while you're in college learn the critical thinking that so many of you decry. Maybe then you won't be so easily conned.
9
Perhaps the commenters here are correct that manufacturing jobs will not come back, even with a scaling back of trade. Perhaps they are right that automation will increasingly hurt the creation of well-paying human jobs available to regular people. If that is the case then we need to seriously rethink and reform our economic system. If workers are forced to take lower-paying service jobs then the government needs to reverse the natural tendency of capitalism to channel income upwards to the owners of capital, and redistribute it as supplemental income to lower-wage workers. Capitalism may be an efficient economic system but it is not a moral one, and it is simply wrong to rob these people of the dignity they deserve as our fellow citizens by plunging them into poverty. It is up to us to correct the inherent inequalities and amorality of the cold economic machine with our humanity and kindness. We cannot allow blind capital to determine the course of human events until we are robbed of our dignity and humanity and can see only hate.
In rejecting Hillary Clinton, voters did not simply reject a woman running for President. They rejected the cold and inhuman system of globalist neoliberal capitalism that left them in the cold like old machines and embraced the comparative warmth of Trump's nationalism, where everyone has a place and purpose. Let us not forget the lessons of history from similar occurrences in the past.
In rejecting Hillary Clinton, voters did not simply reject a woman running for President. They rejected the cold and inhuman system of globalist neoliberal capitalism that left them in the cold like old machines and embraced the comparative warmth of Trump's nationalism, where everyone has a place and purpose. Let us not forget the lessons of history from similar occurrences in the past.
4
HaaaaaHaaaaa! Hysterical. If these people had bothered to actually do some research, they would know that Trump just appointed someone from the US Chamber of Commerce to take point on trade issues during his transition. There is no more free trade organizaton in the USA than the US Chamber of Commerce. Why are the markets not freaking out? Well, because everyone but the white working class konws that Trump pulled a bait and switch on them. I am going to get a nice tax cut. That tax cut will come through for sure. Good paying working class jobs. Don't hold your breath. Trump scammed y'all!
9
Many of the Trump "promises" will either not be implemented or "watered down" to the point many who supported Trump will feel victimized.
Trump and his people vocalized anything about anyone which would assist in his candidacy..regardless if it was true or "doable".
For those who voted for Trump...you were indeed "conned bigtime"
Trump and his people vocalized anything about anyone which would assist in his candidacy..regardless if it was true or "doable".
For those who voted for Trump...you were indeed "conned bigtime"
1
One of the main reasons factory jobs paid well is because they were unionized. There is no reason why the service, health care and warehouse jobs that are available in the area can't pay a lot more. Those workers need to organize and vote for strong unions.
Walmart makes billions a year but pays its workers a pittance so they are forced to get food stamps. A much higher minimum wage and higher salaries across the board would make the jobs that are available more appealing.
I don't see the factory jobs coming back but there is no reason why workers can't make a reasonable living doing other work.
In countries like Denmark and Australia Mc Donald's burger flippers make a living wage. Why not here? People say this is socialism but is that so terrible?
Of course in 20=30 years there will be more automation of even these service jobs. Then the fruits of Capitalism will have to be shared much more equally and give everyone a basic salary even if they don't have a job, as there will be so few jobs available. People could do voluntary work, garden, look after their children etc. We have so many resources if they are shared more equally.
Walmart makes billions a year but pays its workers a pittance so they are forced to get food stamps. A much higher minimum wage and higher salaries across the board would make the jobs that are available more appealing.
I don't see the factory jobs coming back but there is no reason why workers can't make a reasonable living doing other work.
In countries like Denmark and Australia Mc Donald's burger flippers make a living wage. Why not here? People say this is socialism but is that so terrible?
Of course in 20=30 years there will be more automation of even these service jobs. Then the fruits of Capitalism will have to be shared much more equally and give everyone a basic salary even if they don't have a job, as there will be so few jobs available. People could do voluntary work, garden, look after their children etc. We have so many resources if they are shared more equally.
3
All is awful and lost for now. He lied and sold people in need and vulnerable a big heap of garbage, and they got conned by a huckster, and a racist sexist xenophobic liar. Republicans never make human welfare the centerpiece of anything, or that of our planet either. Greed, power, money and corporate welfare are the only thing they care about. Small government for humans, big government handouts for corporate welfare, polluters, banks, and weaponry. Oh and big government to invade women's bodies and wombs. Otherwise they don't even notice human beings. Dump personifies all of this, he sure ain't a change agent. We are all in serious trouble.
3
Yes Robert. I agree with you 100%. We will see what happens.
I "sincerely" believe that ---there will be a lot of "disappointments" in not too long. Trump had his business carried in "12 different countries" according to an article by the NYT.
Going sidetrack - he has married "2 immigrants" from Eastern Europe (which is economically and socially" not up to the Western European par)t.
I have been in a couple of these countries and in some aspects of social and economic life is like going back in time (they live I would imagine like the US in the early 1900's).
I try --whenever possible--to buy American made products--which is "almost impossible" here in California.
And, luckily, I can make a lot of my "wearable" stuff.
I recommend to read "The Soul of Capitalism" by William Greider, to those who want to understand what is "really happening" about trade.
I "sincerely" believe that ---there will be a lot of "disappointments" in not too long. Trump had his business carried in "12 different countries" according to an article by the NYT.
Going sidetrack - he has married "2 immigrants" from Eastern Europe (which is economically and socially" not up to the Western European par)t.
I have been in a couple of these countries and in some aspects of social and economic life is like going back in time (they live I would imagine like the US in the early 1900's).
I try --whenever possible--to buy American made products--which is "almost impossible" here in California.
And, luckily, I can make a lot of my "wearable" stuff.
I recommend to read "The Soul of Capitalism" by William Greider, to those who want to understand what is "really happening" about trade.
2
President Trump was using Chinese factories to manufacture his own campaign paraphenalia, including all those "Make America Great Again" caps. How did these people think he was going to behave? He not only can't make other businesses forgo profits they want, but he is not willing to do this himself. Those who voted for Trump and may feel betrayed by his campaign promises need to smarten up and read something longer than a 4-word motto.
3
The populism isn't going to die. Manufacturing jobs aren't going to come back. As automation gets better and self-driving cars takes off, we'll have another large group, transportation workers, out of a job. Since truck driving is the most popular job in most states, we'll be reckoning with even more despair and anger. If the Democrats are smart, they should be planning for this. Rebuilding infrastructure, job training in other industries and universal basic income should be top priorities.
2
Trump doesn't even produce his own clothing line in the US, yet these people believe that he'll bring manufacturing jobs back to the US?
3
I think both parties thought that having a job was all that mattered. Well, for more than a decade (even with good jobs) the middle class has seen wage stagnation while the rich got richer and prices and taxes continued to rise. The solution was to keep the interest rates low. But all that meant was we could borrow to cover costs. Then there was Bernie who advocated increasing the minimum wage and going after Wall St., the banks and the rich While Trump said turning the system upside-down was the best option, Hillary maintained we should study the system and make incremental changes. We opted for the burnt earth approach, but you better believe this is equivalent to setting your house on fire hoping your insurance will pay for something better. It won't and when it's over you will have less money and no house.
2
Should the government be able to bring them back - that would be actually a pretty big feat. So I would say - lets wait and see what happens.
1
Trump won because for too long our political leaders have ignored the fact that the struggle against inequality has consistently been getting harder and harder, and increasingly hopeless for ordinary working stiffs in this country. Many may be quite sexist and racist, unfortunately; but many also don't have the tools or the luxury to sit around and contemplate their cognitive inadequacies. If Trump cannot do something, quickly, to ameliorate the conditions of their everyday lives in the context of the 21st century economy, well...then, we are not talking about patient and contemplative people. Blue-collar workers will turn against him, and it's not so clear who will stand with him. Social order has never been something we can take for granted; it is, however, something we have charged the government with maintaining. I desperately hope that the people's well-being will continue to be a part of that charge in the coming years.
3
Unfortunately America is in a "gap" period. We have many unskilled to low skilled manufacturing Baby Boomers (whom voted) and the more tech/service sector skilled Gen Xers and Millennials (whom voted in few numbers). These Boomers desire a re-emergance of manufacturing jobs that have been mostly lost to automation or offshoring. Gen Xer's and Millennials have never really been participants in an economy with a majority of middle class jobs coming from unskilled labor. Hence the continual rise in the percentage of college graduates in each successive generation.
Trump will not be able to bring any manufacturing jobs back. The Republican legislature would have to pass tariffs and punitive tax policy against corporate America. Republican legislators get too much money from corporate constituents to ever institute those changes.
The misbegotten notions of the unskilled Boomers will continue rule our government until their gone. The ascendancy of Trump is the first lesson for Millennials of how to shape one's future and that is the power of the vote. I hope this is a one time lesson to be rectified in four years.
Trump will not be able to bring any manufacturing jobs back. The Republican legislature would have to pass tariffs and punitive tax policy against corporate America. Republican legislators get too much money from corporate constituents to ever institute those changes.
The misbegotten notions of the unskilled Boomers will continue rule our government until their gone. The ascendancy of Trump is the first lesson for Millennials of how to shape one's future and that is the power of the vote. I hope this is a one time lesson to be rectified in four years.
4
Let us see how many factories can be made to stay.
1
Don't hold your breath, Trump supporters, he is already back-pedaling on most of his promises including repealing Obama-care and building the wall. His promise to bring jobs back to America will be confronted by the reality of increased mechanization and economic reality and he could start a trade war that would cause us to lose even more jobs.
3
This article should be required reading for all of us. As a Democrat, we used to be the champion of the working class. Our progressive policies and support of unions enabled people to earn decent wages and benefits, lifting them into the middle class. The people interviewed in this article aren't bigots and misogynists, they are manufacturing workers who fear that they will lose their jobs. They voted for Trump because we Democrats have forgotten our roots. This is about economic justice for good people from all ethnic backgrounds who just want to be reasonably compensated for their labor. I don't know if Trump will do anything help them. Getting back to our roots, we in the Democratic party need to stand for economic justice for these workers in the same way that we want to raise the minimum wage for those at the lower end of the pay scale.
3
Hogwash, Democrats have been the ones fighting for a higher minimum wage, trying to protect the health and safety of workers like this etc., these people just didn't bother to pay attention to that.
They voted for a monstrous, lying bigot and embraced his hate speech.
They voted for a monstrous, lying bigot and embraced his hate speech.
2
trump will "bring their jobs back"? of all the disgusting lies, distortions and filth of this bad awful sickening campaign thats the topper. what a joke.
these jobs are no more coming back than trump's an honest businessman or a faithful taxpayer. I work around alot of heavy industry. the idea that coal jobs most of all are coming back is such a joke anyone saying it should be medicated. like half the people in the states that put him in there spend their days. he'll talk tough, win a few rounds here and there but when it really gets tough he'll be up at 4am tweetering how maduro really is a puerco gordo and that the answer to him having the audacity to refuse king trumpo is to nuke him. if that happens we're a failed state and the real threats, an emboldened china and russia, will smell blood. thats when its stock the bomb shelter time.
so lets see WHEN he utterly fails to bring fat jobs back to rural people with no skills. all I gotta say is these clowns better be consistent and support somebody else then. trump the "businessman" with the skills of a 3rd grader forgets for these jobs to come back *somebody has to buy what their making*. whoops. forgot about THAT part. trump will then find somebody to blame for it though. and when millenials and others quit buying too many cars and detroit re-implodes who will he blame then? he'll find someone to scapegoat. just not him.
once he gets a temporary bump from building roads etc, it'll be all over but the crying. for america.
these jobs are no more coming back than trump's an honest businessman or a faithful taxpayer. I work around alot of heavy industry. the idea that coal jobs most of all are coming back is such a joke anyone saying it should be medicated. like half the people in the states that put him in there spend their days. he'll talk tough, win a few rounds here and there but when it really gets tough he'll be up at 4am tweetering how maduro really is a puerco gordo and that the answer to him having the audacity to refuse king trumpo is to nuke him. if that happens we're a failed state and the real threats, an emboldened china and russia, will smell blood. thats when its stock the bomb shelter time.
so lets see WHEN he utterly fails to bring fat jobs back to rural people with no skills. all I gotta say is these clowns better be consistent and support somebody else then. trump the "businessman" with the skills of a 3rd grader forgets for these jobs to come back *somebody has to buy what their making*. whoops. forgot about THAT part. trump will then find somebody to blame for it though. and when millenials and others quit buying too many cars and detroit re-implodes who will he blame then? he'll find someone to scapegoat. just not him.
once he gets a temporary bump from building roads etc, it'll be all over but the crying. for america.
4
Boy are there going to some disappointed Trump voters. Jobs did not completely disappear due factories being moved overseas. Technology - robotics doomed many blue collar jobs. Most jobs lost to oversea manufacturer are the type that only require low skill - cheap labor.
We live in a global economy - start a trade war - add more tariffs and you will get a global recession - goods will become more expensive. You blue collar folks who shop at Wal-Mart - forget about falling prices - all those cheap goods will become more expensive and you thought it was hard to balance your budget before.
Basically you elected and enabled a right wing Congress who will destroy what is left of the unions and those laws will be upheld by the new upcoming right wing Supreme Court. Boy, Trump wasn't kidding - he said he loves those under educated voters - well guess what he meant - A sucker is born every minute and they fell for my con -
We live in a global economy - start a trade war - add more tariffs and you will get a global recession - goods will become more expensive. You blue collar folks who shop at Wal-Mart - forget about falling prices - all those cheap goods will become more expensive and you thought it was hard to balance your budget before.
Basically you elected and enabled a right wing Congress who will destroy what is left of the unions and those laws will be upheld by the new upcoming right wing Supreme Court. Boy, Trump wasn't kidding - he said he loves those under educated voters - well guess what he meant - A sucker is born every minute and they fell for my con -
9
We need international trade agreements - well thought out, fair trade agreements that don't sell workers down the river to favor corporations.
Why? For one example, trade wars will result in unaffordable laptops, tablets, phones, etc. Rare earth metals used in electronics are mined in Asia.
Trump makes promises but is incapable of analysis.
Why? For one example, trade wars will result in unaffordable laptops, tablets, phones, etc. Rare earth metals used in electronics are mined in Asia.
Trump makes promises but is incapable of analysis.
2
This is heartbreaking for us all. I'm willing to bet that these good folks won't get their plant back and the new version of the previously unsuccessful trickle down economics will only make things worse. On top of that, we will all be hurt by the rest of Trump's uninformed ideas reinforced by those around him - on the environment, health care, foreign relations, etc. I'm no economist, but what happened to the ideas around clean energy technology and infrastructure projects that might be good substitutes for the loss of some of these manufacturing jobs?
2
"Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me."
Expecting companies to do what unions used to do is not a great expectation.
Good luck...
Expecting companies to do what unions used to do is not a great expectation.
Good luck...
3
"Some blue-collar neighborhoods that supported Mr. Trump have been portrayed as monocultures, the opposite of supposedly more diverse, cosmopolitan cities that favored Mrs. Clinton, the Democratic candidate. That caricature does not hold up here."
That caricature does not hold up anywhere in America. That yet-perpetuated caricature is an insult to Americans. It is the fundamental, underlying reason for why the giggling, snickering, too-cool-to-lose faction lost. For all the fun poked at that "caricature", there was an enormously diverse, beautifully democratic, well-informed and tired-as-hell of the mud-slinging America - that defies the tunnel vision the losing side in this election - who really wanted real promises kept. Not via the rope-a-dope ACA, not via the imperial Clintons, not via the vitriolic hate of the 'tolerant' left.
Change? Reform? Rid DC of vested interests? This is the best chance in your lifetime to make real strides in actually accomplishing those. Let's get to work!
That caricature does not hold up anywhere in America. That yet-perpetuated caricature is an insult to Americans. It is the fundamental, underlying reason for why the giggling, snickering, too-cool-to-lose faction lost. For all the fun poked at that "caricature", there was an enormously diverse, beautifully democratic, well-informed and tired-as-hell of the mud-slinging America - that defies the tunnel vision the losing side in this election - who really wanted real promises kept. Not via the rope-a-dope ACA, not via the imperial Clintons, not via the vitriolic hate of the 'tolerant' left.
Change? Reform? Rid DC of vested interests? This is the best chance in your lifetime to make real strides in actually accomplishing those. Let's get to work!
1
For years, the Democrats have been calling for Medicare for all from birth until death; a doubling, at least, of the federal minimum wage; severe punishments for companies that hired overseas labor.
They have voted for tax cuts for small businesses numerous times under Obama, only for the Republicans to prevent the cuts. They created consumer protections. Historically, the GI Bill. TRICARE. Social Security.
Republicans have done absolutely nothing to help the American People. Nothing. After Nixon, there has been a single Republican initiative that has been targeted to the non-wealthy, and none that have been empirically shown to help the non-wealthy unless it helped the wealthy even more.
Moreover, Republicans have yet to pay a price by the electorate at large for lying the nation, and its military boys and girls, into Iraq, which helped form ISIS; for Halliburton losing billions there that have yet to be found, for scrubbing tens of thousands of emails from the Bush 2 White House server; for turning the Clinton surplus into a deficit, for the Great Recession and the implosion of financial, capital, and housing markets, and for refusing to work with Obama from his own Day One.
Who does it punish? President Obama, who is trying to bring affordable health care to all, who saved the economy from the brink with stimulus money, and who created a jobs program blocked by the GOP.
And I am supposed to sympathize with these people? SPARE ME.
They have voted for tax cuts for small businesses numerous times under Obama, only for the Republicans to prevent the cuts. They created consumer protections. Historically, the GI Bill. TRICARE. Social Security.
Republicans have done absolutely nothing to help the American People. Nothing. After Nixon, there has been a single Republican initiative that has been targeted to the non-wealthy, and none that have been empirically shown to help the non-wealthy unless it helped the wealthy even more.
Moreover, Republicans have yet to pay a price by the electorate at large for lying the nation, and its military boys and girls, into Iraq, which helped form ISIS; for Halliburton losing billions there that have yet to be found, for scrubbing tens of thousands of emails from the Bush 2 White House server; for turning the Clinton surplus into a deficit, for the Great Recession and the implosion of financial, capital, and housing markets, and for refusing to work with Obama from his own Day One.
Who does it punish? President Obama, who is trying to bring affordable health care to all, who saved the economy from the brink with stimulus money, and who created a jobs program blocked by the GOP.
And I am supposed to sympathize with these people? SPARE ME.
9
Probably the era or more people making more and more money is gone permanently. Probably that isn't even bad, energy consumption creates global warming. Probably expectations, earnings, all have to be rescaled, with the quality of life being measured differently (certainly not by whether you can take vacations to Paris or Melbourne).
2
Having to think through the sadness- yes, thinking, ideas- trying to tune into reality. I got hit by something and it knocked my pride in being an American to the curb. If it was just about listening to so many who want jobs- it would be something we more fortunate could do, wouldn't it. We could have created lots of jobs- and I in my little self- only have these ideas. I pray for a shining star, lots of shining stars to rise. If what some of Hillary's ideas were true- we could have created many jobs in the red states- jobs to help change our environment with the wonderful and most amazing technological advances (thanks to so many brilliant people). We could have dotted the red states with these facilities. We could have set up more colleges- (even if they were marginalized schools- as so many are now). I'm not so sure about Trump Universities though, not so sure those types of schools would work:)))
2
I wish the best for these workers as well as the country yet I believe there will be a grim outcome with more U.S. jobs being lost:
- manufacturing jobs are being replaced with robotics, this cannot be stopped
- Trump led U.S. is now seen as less stable/desirable for international investment. Trump has a track record of reneging on promises so any further foreign investment in the US is an increased risk. We may even see international companies with US based sites do less hiring/investment here.
- Global competition is increasing and technologies,not trade agreements, will dictate job growth.
- US workers will need training to remain competitive, that will require both State and Federal investment but taxes cuts for corporations will make this less achievable.
- Our goods will cost more so we will be able to afford less and the economy will suffer. Trump and Congress might set tariff's set but US consumers will be the ones paying the higher cost.
- Our grads will have less job opportunities so college debt will remain an issue, without skilled workers the US will lose more jobs.
- Worker protections for RIF's, worker safety, healthcare and sick leave will place higher demands and stress on those working. This will limit worker life style thus mobility.
- manufacturing jobs are being replaced with robotics, this cannot be stopped
- Trump led U.S. is now seen as less stable/desirable for international investment. Trump has a track record of reneging on promises so any further foreign investment in the US is an increased risk. We may even see international companies with US based sites do less hiring/investment here.
- Global competition is increasing and technologies,not trade agreements, will dictate job growth.
- US workers will need training to remain competitive, that will require both State and Federal investment but taxes cuts for corporations will make this less achievable.
- Our goods will cost more so we will be able to afford less and the economy will suffer. Trump and Congress might set tariff's set but US consumers will be the ones paying the higher cost.
- Our grads will have less job opportunities so college debt will remain an issue, without skilled workers the US will lose more jobs.
- Worker protections for RIF's, worker safety, healthcare and sick leave will place higher demands and stress on those working. This will limit worker life style thus mobility.
2
Sheep eat men?
I've seen this old grinder before. Imagine a Baughman, a Dunker woodsman who cuts fuel for a living. Plenty to bring down in Penn's Woods for firing iron works, until they nearly denuded it all. Thank good for king coal? Did he forestalled a woodland rape?
A lot of people had to reconfigure their old woodcutting jobs into serving the coal industry. Industry preferred immigrant wage slavery, so these less new woodcutters had a lot of ready clogs to toss the cogs off the truss.
It has been forever thus, folks fighting to hold onto the past and blaming their future on others bad judgement. When the Brits admitted stealing the common fields from citizens for higher sheep yields, they invented their own social system to support those who had worked themselves near to death and asked only for dignity and respect.
IF Trump cannot deliver the jobs, what's he got to offer this cohort who missed the boat? I say put them all on Medicare, advance their SS and move on.
I've seen this old grinder before. Imagine a Baughman, a Dunker woodsman who cuts fuel for a living. Plenty to bring down in Penn's Woods for firing iron works, until they nearly denuded it all. Thank good for king coal? Did he forestalled a woodland rape?
A lot of people had to reconfigure their old woodcutting jobs into serving the coal industry. Industry preferred immigrant wage slavery, so these less new woodcutters had a lot of ready clogs to toss the cogs off the truss.
It has been forever thus, folks fighting to hold onto the past and blaming their future on others bad judgement. When the Brits admitted stealing the common fields from citizens for higher sheep yields, they invented their own social system to support those who had worked themselves near to death and asked only for dignity and respect.
IF Trump cannot deliver the jobs, what's he got to offer this cohort who missed the boat? I say put them all on Medicare, advance their SS and move on.
4
Wait right there, President is going to bring back all the low skilled jobs. While you are there waiting, do please, hold your breath. If you start turning blue in the face, don't worry, just keep holding it a little longer, as the end is nigh!
5
I think that these workers sadly are in for a big disappointment with Trump. Obama was unable to fully implement any of his plans due to a republican congress bent on obstructing any plans he laid forth. He would even take republican proposals and they would not approve. They said they would block everything proposed so that they would win the office in the future. Not looking out for the people, but themselves. Trump supporters were tired of the elites, (which really Trump is one of them, he has never had to struggle with the things that most Americans have had to deal with) and wanted a change. However, I am not sure if a change can be implemented with Trump surrounding himself with the same congresspeople, lobbyists that have been in DC for years, along with business people that have benefited from the very system that workers say have hurt them (even Trump has benefited)
5
you can't turn factory workers into software programmers. It is not realistic.
Of course tariffs don’t work in the US, look at the steel industry in the 1960’s: protectionism didn’t result in investment in technologies, but increases in executive salaries. When tariffs were lifted, foreign manufacturers were more efficient, cheaper and of higher quality.
What’s interesting is that manufacturing continues globally; Air conditioners, automobiles, toasters, electronics are being assembled somewhere, just not here. Automation has changed a lot, but people are still employed on production lines around the globe. The argument that if a shirt was manufactured here in the US it would cost $250, is a red herring meant to distract us from the fact that executives and Wall Street have diverted profits away from investment, and lowering costs, and into a select few’s pockets. Much better to offshore jobs, lower costs and maintain exec bonus, than actually make a difference. These Trump voters are about to get the real October surprise.
Of course tariffs don’t work in the US, look at the steel industry in the 1960’s: protectionism didn’t result in investment in technologies, but increases in executive salaries. When tariffs were lifted, foreign manufacturers were more efficient, cheaper and of higher quality.
What’s interesting is that manufacturing continues globally; Air conditioners, automobiles, toasters, electronics are being assembled somewhere, just not here. Automation has changed a lot, but people are still employed on production lines around the globe. The argument that if a shirt was manufactured here in the US it would cost $250, is a red herring meant to distract us from the fact that executives and Wall Street have diverted profits away from investment, and lowering costs, and into a select few’s pockets. Much better to offshore jobs, lower costs and maintain exec bonus, than actually make a difference. These Trump voters are about to get the real October surprise.
8
CADCAM has even eliminated the need for machinists who can program CNC machines.
3
I disagree. India has trained their people to be programmers. I heard a great story recently about people who were training coal miners to be programmers. I used to do clerical work until I became a programmer.
Very high import tariffs will bring back manufacturing, causing prices to rise astronomically. Look at the prices of goods in a country like Brazil that has high tariffs. Bing "iPhone price in Brazil." In 2014, it was $1200! If high tariffs were to become a reality for the US, capitalistic competition would rapidly accelerate a new wave of automation. So the factory worker effectively gets about a ten-year reprieve before the lay-offs start again. In the long run, society has to determine how to distribute not only wealth, but work, among the population.
Unfortunately for Trump, he's stuck with Ryan and company. Trump's supporters need to understand that Paul Ryan is their worst nightmare. Trump is WAY out of his element here and will get burned badly by Congressional Republicans. Ryan has already got Trump on board with another round of tax cuts that will benefit the investor class. When Newt Gingrich was in Congress (1997) he advocated the total elimination of all capital gains and estate taxes. Let's see how long it takes until all those around Trump co-opt him to their point of view.
Unfortunately for Trump, he's stuck with Ryan and company. Trump's supporters need to understand that Paul Ryan is their worst nightmare. Trump is WAY out of his element here and will get burned badly by Congressional Republicans. Ryan has already got Trump on board with another round of tax cuts that will benefit the investor class. When Newt Gingrich was in Congress (1997) he advocated the total elimination of all capital gains and estate taxes. Let's see how long it takes until all those around Trump co-opt him to their point of view.
5
Wait, so they don't have a college degree, don't want to have to take $13-$15 jobs, and don't want to move when times get tough? Guess what? I have a science degree, live in a city, and I had to work for years in $13-$15 chemistry labs just to start my career in science. Why are there so many articles about "understanding Trump voters" and not about how entitled rural whites are?
18
I wonder how many of these voters bothered to investigate the feasibility of tariffs that would trigger trade wars before they cast their vote?
I'm not trying to knock anyone here; I just don't believe our problems have such simplistic solutions.
I'm not trying to knock anyone here; I just don't believe our problems have such simplistic solutions.
7
The current system appears to be unsustainable - on one hand we value programs like social security and Medicare which require workers to put in money from their paychecks.....however at the same we are exporting jobs out of the country. Jobs that are available are at places like fast food restaurants and retails stores, pay so poorly that rather than allowing workers to contribute to safety nets, they must make use of them. We tout a college degree as some kind of a panacea - but even state universities are exorbitantly priced for many Americans, and we know many millennials are burdened with huge amounts of student loan debt. At the rate we are going, it won't be too long till we see more people with pitchforks.
6
These two women will never read any of these posts. While all the posts are rational and full of useful information they will never be seen. It's a shame that America is full of uninformed citizens. They fall prey to con artists. Now the rest of us will have to fight like crazy to even begin to save all the progress that has been made in this country.
10
These same people applauded when Mr. Trump said he would repeal Obamacare on Day 1. Yesterday he said in a Wall Street Journal interview that he is agreeable to keeping some parts of the Affordable Care Act - translation: Obamacare is here to stay.
5
Despite DT's fairytale, the fifties are over and they're not coming back. The rest of the world has caught up and surpassed US manufacturing. Get your people healthy. Get them educated. Then you might still have a chance.
7
How sad and delusional, these jobs are never returning. People wanted cheap Chinese merchandise they could buy down at Walmart never stopping to consider that they were putting their neighbor and eventually themselves out of a job. Automation has eliminated the rest. The clock cannot be turned back. At 67 I am on my fifth career so re-educate and adapt or perish. The Trumps of the world are not going to save you they are far too busy amassing a fortune and trying to protect it. It doesn't matter what party they belong to.
6
Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me every single election since 1980, shame on me.
Fool me every single election since 1980, shame on me.
9
And just how many of you readers are using Apple electronics? All made in China. Trump mentioned that but that's Apple's choice of doing business and it won't change when he's in charge of Making China Great--excuse me Making America Great Again. Same situation with Carrier.
3
Maybe Trump will convince Carrier to stay in Indianna, the reality is that Carrier is present in 170 countries, de facto protection could lead to reciprocal action from the countries Carrier operates in
In addition Carrier has a lot of compeitition , from China, Korea , Japan etc if Carrier is not compeititive they will lose out in the USA and globally unless we impose tariffs.
That will be the slippery slope.
To me it will be interesting to see how Republicans , the ultimate advocates of free trade will react.
Sadly I do not think there is much a President Trump can do to help the people of Indiana and the rust belt in general however he created the false hopes and will pay the price
In addition Carrier has a lot of compeitition , from China, Korea , Japan etc if Carrier is not compeititive they will lose out in the USA and globally unless we impose tariffs.
That will be the slippery slope.
To me it will be interesting to see how Republicans , the ultimate advocates of free trade will react.
Sadly I do not think there is much a President Trump can do to help the people of Indiana and the rust belt in general however he created the false hopes and will pay the price
While you were crying in your soup:
Toyota, Honda and other major car manufacturers have built auto assembly plants in the Southeast. Chinese factory workers have been getting double-digit raises for several years and are catching up to our wages. Chinese manufacturers are introducing automation as fast as they can but the workers are grumbling. Do you seriously believe that a billion Chinese will passively revert to the poverty of the Mao years. Mexicans aren't stupid. If Carrier does open its plant there they will have to raise wages a lot quicker than they think. Even the Davos elites are becoming aware that major changes are underway. Judging from my personal experience with academia and academics, the MIT prof you quote will be the last to notice this.
Trump is just a placeholder. He cannot affect this either way. Whatever happened to the American optimism that foreigners have always admired about this country?
Toyota, Honda and other major car manufacturers have built auto assembly plants in the Southeast. Chinese factory workers have been getting double-digit raises for several years and are catching up to our wages. Chinese manufacturers are introducing automation as fast as they can but the workers are grumbling. Do you seriously believe that a billion Chinese will passively revert to the poverty of the Mao years. Mexicans aren't stupid. If Carrier does open its plant there they will have to raise wages a lot quicker than they think. Even the Davos elites are becoming aware that major changes are underway. Judging from my personal experience with academia and academics, the MIT prof you quote will be the last to notice this.
Trump is just a placeholder. He cannot affect this either way. Whatever happened to the American optimism that foreigners have always admired about this country?
The Carrier plant here is plenty profitable. But moving to Monterrey, where workers earn in a day what they make here in an hour, will increase profits faster. (And) WALL STREET HEDGE FUND MANAGERS are demanding steadily rising earnings from Carrier’s parent, United Technologies, even as growth remains sluggish worldwide.
@CA
They can't hear you.
It's Hard to change human nature.
And Trump has the temperament to say ANYTHING that will benefit him.
The normal rules don't apply.
They can't hear you.
It's Hard to change human nature.
And Trump has the temperament to say ANYTHING that will benefit him.
The normal rules don't apply.
1
It would seem to me that the best situation for any Capitalist is when everyone in the country is employed and has some spare change in their pocket to spend.
Henry Ford always said, he paid his workers well so they could afford to purchase the cars they were making.
But modern day Capitalists cannot help them selves when it comes to greed. They cannot stomach making a profit in America with American workers when they could make more money by manufacturing elsewhere.
This ends up with a country of ultra rich and desperate and no middle class to sell to.
Henry Ford always said, he paid his workers well so they could afford to purchase the cars they were making.
But modern day Capitalists cannot help them selves when it comes to greed. They cannot stomach making a profit in America with American workers when they could make more money by manufacturing elsewhere.
This ends up with a country of ultra rich and desperate and no middle class to sell to.
All of Carrier's local suppliers in and around Indianapolis have already decamped to Mexico. So the horse has already left the barn, unless Carrier is to be saddled with uncompetitive tarriff and transportation costs.
3
A few years ago an Indian friend commented that his brother in law had to move his clothing factory(they made generic jeans for Walmart, Target etc) from Delhi to Dakar because labor costs in India were to high. Indian government had sudsidies in place but couldn't make it viable. I wouldn't hold my breath Indianapolis.
Unlike a lot commentators here I don't feel sorry for these folks as long as the US keeps electing policy free dolts you deserve what you get.
Unlike a lot commentators here I don't feel sorry for these folks as long as the US keeps electing policy free dolts you deserve what you get.
3
This is a fantastic article. I am from Alabama but I grew up in a middle-class family and never knew anyone in manufacturing. This article gave me a little insight beyond "all Trump's supporters are dummies and racists." I still think voting for him was about the worst mistake any of these people could make, but I understand it a little more.
94
Their understanding of government and how it works is infantile. I feel bad for them but in Trump-speak, they're going to get schlonged.
4
Good luck with that folks. And guess what? The healthcare exchange, subsidies and Medicaid will be gone too.
4
Yep and big pharma is already hoping to raise prices on prescription meds thanks to less regulation from the pesky government.
Mr. Charles Evans has a Mexican blanket on his lap, cold and perhaps a little deprived of choices in that area, Miinnesota.
Deprived of intermarriage with natives, the transplanted are now without a cultural identity outside the job. Not Vikings, not English, not Europeans.
"America" is really the whole continent. Really must get that clear, dear "new" patriots, I´m a descendant of Virginia´s indepencence patriots.
The spirit needs sustainable sources to soar. Hybrid now.
Learn Spanish. Dance polka and eat barbecue. Hike mountains, be loved, enjoy loving friendships, beautiful scenery, incredible resiliance to life, and see where the Jewish Diaspora of the Spanish Inquisition (Monterrey) made the honeytrap of good business and the place for leaders iand hard, educated work! Just look at what the American Chamber of Commerce posted on their site: (Monterrey is in Nuevo León State)
"Nuevo León is host to many international and global companies such as: Accenture, American Express, BCG, Bridgestone, British American Tobacco, Carrier, Caterpillar, Cemex, Danfos, Delloite, GE, HEB, Hershey, Hill-Rom, The Home Depot, Home Interiors, Infosys, John Deere, Johnson Controls, Korn Ferry, KPMG, Kraft, LG, Lenovo, Lowes, Manpower, Mars, Mary Kay, Navistar International, Pepsico, PricewaterhouseCoopers, Tempel Steel and Whirlpool, among others."
It is the beer capital of good beer all over, not just Mexico. What are you waiting for? Don´t cry. "Canta y no llores!" Go!
Deprived of intermarriage with natives, the transplanted are now without a cultural identity outside the job. Not Vikings, not English, not Europeans.
"America" is really the whole continent. Really must get that clear, dear "new" patriots, I´m a descendant of Virginia´s indepencence patriots.
The spirit needs sustainable sources to soar. Hybrid now.
Learn Spanish. Dance polka and eat barbecue. Hike mountains, be loved, enjoy loving friendships, beautiful scenery, incredible resiliance to life, and see where the Jewish Diaspora of the Spanish Inquisition (Monterrey) made the honeytrap of good business and the place for leaders iand hard, educated work! Just look at what the American Chamber of Commerce posted on their site: (Monterrey is in Nuevo León State)
"Nuevo León is host to many international and global companies such as: Accenture, American Express, BCG, Bridgestone, British American Tobacco, Carrier, Caterpillar, Cemex, Danfos, Delloite, GE, HEB, Hershey, Hill-Rom, The Home Depot, Home Interiors, Infosys, John Deere, Johnson Controls, Korn Ferry, KPMG, Kraft, LG, Lenovo, Lowes, Manpower, Mars, Mary Kay, Navistar International, Pepsico, PricewaterhouseCoopers, Tempel Steel and Whirlpool, among others."
It is the beer capital of good beer all over, not just Mexico. What are you waiting for? Don´t cry. "Canta y no llores!" Go!
So blue collars finally recognized they too have fallen through the cracks since the 1960s and got on their high horses enough to see what demanding equality can earn a person.
This sounds like a high ticket item, securing work for the displaced, and if we can build a better one, it's bound to catch on elsewhere.
I just can't see why we would want to build air conditioners when Mexicans can so much cheaper. Why not a thermostat that doesn't fail in my water heater every winter, American? Should have bought it in the summer to reduce the inconvenience?
At least my Mexican water heater's company does free re-installation when they send the replacement thermostat. I quit betting on American in that business sector. Build it better if it's not cheaper, or you have a losing product.
I've been told by the sales folks this is due to an American law regulating thermostat safety. Fails right on time annually. When the troops at Huachucha got theirs, it was cold showers for everyone, folks! So excuse me if I'm not always buying into American worker's products, but quality sells me, every time!
This sounds like a high ticket item, securing work for the displaced, and if we can build a better one, it's bound to catch on elsewhere.
I just can't see why we would want to build air conditioners when Mexicans can so much cheaper. Why not a thermostat that doesn't fail in my water heater every winter, American? Should have bought it in the summer to reduce the inconvenience?
At least my Mexican water heater's company does free re-installation when they send the replacement thermostat. I quit betting on American in that business sector. Build it better if it's not cheaper, or you have a losing product.
I've been told by the sales folks this is due to an American law regulating thermostat safety. Fails right on time annually. When the troops at Huachucha got theirs, it was cold showers for everyone, folks! So excuse me if I'm not always buying into American worker's products, but quality sells me, every time!
2
Good luck waiting for that. Keep counting. At certain point you will start guessing if you were conned. Then, after more counting you will realize you were.
4
I do hope they get their jobs back, but I seriously doubt it. Trump many be interested in their plight but the Republican Party really does not see them as an important part of their agenda. They never had and never will. When they do loose their jobs they will face a government that does not care about their health care, pensions and what they get paid, the environment they live in or the education their children received. I will take no joy in telling them: I told you so. The working class may be part of Trumps agenda, but it never was and is not part of the Conservative Agenda within the Republican Party.
Two thoughts: We need politicians who, instead of pandering to people who are pining for lost jobs, can explain--honestly and courageously--that those jobs are gone, they're not coming back because that's not how capitalism works, and so the best thing we can do is have a game plan for adjusting, which includes training and education so that workers have the skills for jobs that are staying here for the long term. That would be true leadership.
And second, we need voters who have principles, not just interests. Voting for someone just because they promise to make you comfortable opens you up to being conned again and again, and it leads to a national whiplash where we are constantly passing laws and then four or eight years later repealing those laws and passing completely different ones to replace them. It's nuts. It's the equivalent of the Cleveland Browns firing their head coach every year and then wondering why they can't manage to win. Anyone who votes for whichever party promises to fill their pockets with cash needs to take a hard look at themselves and figure out what they actually believe, or if they believe anything at all.
And second, we need voters who have principles, not just interests. Voting for someone just because they promise to make you comfortable opens you up to being conned again and again, and it leads to a national whiplash where we are constantly passing laws and then four or eight years later repealing those laws and passing completely different ones to replace them. It's nuts. It's the equivalent of the Cleveland Browns firing their head coach every year and then wondering why they can't manage to win. Anyone who votes for whichever party promises to fill their pockets with cash needs to take a hard look at themselves and figure out what they actually believe, or if they believe anything at all.
2
I watched footage of one Trump rally in which he proclaimed he would eliminate the death tax. And his crowd of supporters cheered loudly. Then I asked myself, "Do they really understand what they're cheering about?" I didn't think so. This article, too, is a perfect example of what is not understood by Trump supporters. Countries like Mexico and China have not stolen our jobs. American corporations and their shareholders gave our jobs to those countries. American corporations are the ones that have betrayed the American worker.
Sorry, employees of Carrier, you will lose your jobs. Donald Trump is not going to save you, even if you voted for him. He got what he wanted, now you get the scraps. Oh, wait..... there are no scraps because they went to Mexico along with everything else.
Sorry, employees of Carrier, you will lose your jobs. Donald Trump is not going to save you, even if you voted for him. He got what he wanted, now you get the scraps. Oh, wait..... there are no scraps because they went to Mexico along with everything else.
8
“Hillary hasn’t sweated a day in her life, unless it was losing a tough case as a lawyer,” Mr. Maynard said.
__________________________________________
FLASH to Mr. Maynard if he ever reads this far: Forget about not doing sweat work--do you imagine that Donald Trump has ever even washed one of his own DISHES in his life, or at least in the past 50 years? He grew up in a mansion, with a cook and servants. If he ever went into the kitchen it was to grab a few cookies. Then prep school, to college, to a job as a developer-CEO where his only interview, the only job interview in his life, was asking his father for investment money and loan guarantees to start off with.
He's got cooks and servants now (you don't suppose Melania is kept busy in the kitchen with the pots and pans?)--in his six-star homes in several cities; and wherever else in the world he's got his name on a hotel, or some private club that you could only ever get into as a mechanic brought in to fix something. No wonder he doesn't want to move into the White House; for him it's honestly a step down in accommodations!
There were reasons not to vote for Hillary Clinton, but other than the one about her "murdering Vince Foster" this is about the most foolish of all.
__________________________________________
FLASH to Mr. Maynard if he ever reads this far: Forget about not doing sweat work--do you imagine that Donald Trump has ever even washed one of his own DISHES in his life, or at least in the past 50 years? He grew up in a mansion, with a cook and servants. If he ever went into the kitchen it was to grab a few cookies. Then prep school, to college, to a job as a developer-CEO where his only interview, the only job interview in his life, was asking his father for investment money and loan guarantees to start off with.
He's got cooks and servants now (you don't suppose Melania is kept busy in the kitchen with the pots and pans?)--in his six-star homes in several cities; and wherever else in the world he's got his name on a hotel, or some private club that you could only ever get into as a mechanic brought in to fix something. No wonder he doesn't want to move into the White House; for him it's honestly a step down in accommodations!
There were reasons not to vote for Hillary Clinton, but other than the one about her "murdering Vince Foster" this is about the most foolish of all.
15
As if it's Bush's, Obama's, or either of the Clinton's fault that factories have closed and jobs have been going abroad for decades.This is what most corporations want: cheap labor and maximum profits for the CEO, the board, and shareholders. Any politician who won't tell you that is merely a master of dissembling. (That same hypocrisy applies to the immigration situation as well.)
Well, good luck to those workers. If it doesn't move to Mexico, it will move to some other low labor cost country. People who think Trump can somehow overturn the laws of economics live in a dream world. The idea of moving manufacturing to low cost areas have been with us for centuries. That is why the idea of tariffs was invented, trying to block or slow down this movement to low cost.
Tariffs will help but as we have seen in the auto industry, if the company is to remain here, you are bucking automation and robots. Mechanization is the real threat to workers jobs. Yes, even for White Collar Jobs! Take a close look at what you do at your job, is it repetitious? Is it simple? Heck, now with advances in computer technology and artificial intelligence even some so-called "intellectual" jobs can be done by a computer. The real competition for you jobs is not China, Mexico, or some other country, it is the computer.
Tariffs will help but as we have seen in the auto industry, if the company is to remain here, you are bucking automation and robots. Mechanization is the real threat to workers jobs. Yes, even for White Collar Jobs! Take a close look at what you do at your job, is it repetitious? Is it simple? Heck, now with advances in computer technology and artificial intelligence even some so-called "intellectual" jobs can be done by a computer. The real competition for you jobs is not China, Mexico, or some other country, it is the computer.
4
I feel for these people since they have been HAD by a charlatan. The really sad thing is that Trump will benefit upper middle class people like me with all kinds of tax deals and savings. I think that when it becomes clear that Trump has opened the door for all the shucksters from the military industrial complex to take over the government and that in addition to not getting their jobs back they are losing their health care--there will be an open revolt by the rabble that put him in office! Can't say they don't deserve it, however. It is just that we will all have to suffer for their ignorance and naivete.
3
Jobs? Fat chance! Trump is more interested in eliminating estate taxes so Ivanka won't be forced to sell his 757.
9
I would like to point out to president Trump that IT workers and factory workers are not the only people suffering due to outsourcing of jobs. Chemists are also in the same boat. I have a PhD in chemistry and more than 20 years of experience in the pharma/biotech industry designing new drugs. I was laid off at the end of Jan.2014. I have not been able to find a job so far because the jobs in my field have been outsourced to China, India and may be Russia and Israel. The few jobs that open up are entry level jobs and these jobs go to H1-B visa holders and 99% of H1-B visa holders are Chinese. Mr.Trump, please bring my job back too.
2
If you go to school and believe in the process (assuming your parents passed that on to you) then you learn "stuff".
In History courses ALONE, regardless of your teacher and if dedicated to your studies, you learn that everything is dynamic. You become aware, through studies on past civilizations of what creates the ups and downs of life, on a grand scale. Studying what happened during the industrial revolution at least gets you thinking about what is going on right now.
Education is the ultimate networking.
Not only do you learn about social interaction but also about world ideas and the human quests over time. You become a person who thinks on your own two feet.
AND you help avoiding catastrophes of the kind that happened this passed Nov. 8.
On the other hand, unplugged from all of that, and only on the receiving hand of consumerism, you become dependent on others and the snake oil they sell. You become gullible and uneducated.
May be you will rethink how you teach your children. Spectator sports involving guns, football, basketball etc. video downloads, drinking beer, talking to people just like you and the occasional trip to the mall is definitely not the ticket.
You were given roads to explore the world and universities and libraries to immerse yourself into. To say that that is not the way your brain works and therefore the opportunities were not there for you is nothing but hogwash. You were not taught properly and you are passing the sin downward.
In History courses ALONE, regardless of your teacher and if dedicated to your studies, you learn that everything is dynamic. You become aware, through studies on past civilizations of what creates the ups and downs of life, on a grand scale. Studying what happened during the industrial revolution at least gets you thinking about what is going on right now.
Education is the ultimate networking.
Not only do you learn about social interaction but also about world ideas and the human quests over time. You become a person who thinks on your own two feet.
AND you help avoiding catastrophes of the kind that happened this passed Nov. 8.
On the other hand, unplugged from all of that, and only on the receiving hand of consumerism, you become dependent on others and the snake oil they sell. You become gullible and uneducated.
May be you will rethink how you teach your children. Spectator sports involving guns, football, basketball etc. video downloads, drinking beer, talking to people just like you and the occasional trip to the mall is definitely not the ticket.
You were given roads to explore the world and universities and libraries to immerse yourself into. To say that that is not the way your brain works and therefore the opportunities were not there for you is nothing but hogwash. You were not taught properly and you are passing the sin downward.
2
Your comment explains in a nutshell why the Democrats lost big time! As Thomas Frank has pointed out again and again: The Democrats have morphed from a party of the working class into a party of the meritocratic credentialed professional class. This goes hand in hand with contempt for the less brainy, less energetic people, who work with their hand and do menial tasks for their betters. Of course, freed from the menial tasks of daily lives, the professional classes can pursue further goals, that make the lives of the downtrodden even more miserable. The idea that even menial work has value seems to never ever enter their heads.
And as robb below pointed out, advanced education in useful fields doesn't help much either.
The only hope for all still employed people will eventually be real political change by forcing the money men out of the Democratic Party. Then the party might have a chance to transform itself from a Republican Party light into a real counterpoint to the Republicans.
And as robb below pointed out, advanced education in useful fields doesn't help much either.
The only hope for all still employed people will eventually be real political change by forcing the money men out of the Democratic Party. Then the party might have a chance to transform itself from a Republican Party light into a real counterpoint to the Republicans.
This is correct, but the same can be said for the other side:
"Conservatives saw the death of Justice Anton Scalia as the biggest threat to their control of the country's agenda in a generation."
First of all, I've noticed that a surprising number of Supreme Court decisions are NOT "ideological," or that the configurations of Justices are not what one would imagine. On this point, I highly recommend Uncertain Justice, by Larry Tribe (a former law school professor of me and many others). I was surprised to learn, for example, that both Alito and Scalia had strong feelings on some issues that most readers would classify as "liberal."
Nonetheless, many Supreme Court decisions ARE "ideological," and there's almost no question that Trump's replacement of Scalia will tip the scales in favor of the conservative viewpoint. Had HRC won, however, liberals would have considered "the death of Justice Anton Scalia as the biggest [opportunity to control] the country's agenda in a generation."
As a law school friend used to say: "Some days you eat the bear, and some days the bear eats you." For better or worse, Trump will be picking Supreme Court Justices for a while. At a minimum, that means choosing Scalia's replacement, and that won't be Merrick Garland (with whom I think HRC would have stuck had she won). It may mean replacing one or two more (Ginsburg, for example), though I suspect any liberal Justices that might have been thinking about retirement will put those plans on hold.
"Conservatives saw the death of Justice Anton Scalia as the biggest threat to their control of the country's agenda in a generation."
First of all, I've noticed that a surprising number of Supreme Court decisions are NOT "ideological," or that the configurations of Justices are not what one would imagine. On this point, I highly recommend Uncertain Justice, by Larry Tribe (a former law school professor of me and many others). I was surprised to learn, for example, that both Alito and Scalia had strong feelings on some issues that most readers would classify as "liberal."
Nonetheless, many Supreme Court decisions ARE "ideological," and there's almost no question that Trump's replacement of Scalia will tip the scales in favor of the conservative viewpoint. Had HRC won, however, liberals would have considered "the death of Justice Anton Scalia as the biggest [opportunity to control] the country's agenda in a generation."
As a law school friend used to say: "Some days you eat the bear, and some days the bear eats you." For better or worse, Trump will be picking Supreme Court Justices for a while. At a minimum, that means choosing Scalia's replacement, and that won't be Merrick Garland (with whom I think HRC would have stuck had she won). It may mean replacing one or two more (Ginsburg, for example), though I suspect any liberal Justices that might have been thinking about retirement will put those plans on hold.
All you have to do is look at the behaviour of the stock market in the last couple of decades. A company can be making profit but its stock falls
because the profits made do not meet expectations. Meanwhile, the CEO still makes millions in salary and bonus's. We have to understand that there should be no such thing as unlimited growth and profit. We should seek worker contentment even if it means minimal growth or no growth. And, this should be an economic strategy. Until that happens, workers will always get the short end of the stick and the rich will continue to get richer.
because the profits made do not meet expectations. Meanwhile, the CEO still makes millions in salary and bonus's. We have to understand that there should be no such thing as unlimited growth and profit. We should seek worker contentment even if it means minimal growth or no growth. And, this should be an economic strategy. Until that happens, workers will always get the short end of the stick and the rich will continue to get richer.
2
"The Carrier plant here is plenty profitable. But moving to Monterrey, where workers earn in a day what they make here in an hour, will increase profits faster."
This says it all. Damn Hillary Clinton and the Democrats for not recognizing this. Damn the establishment Republicans. Damn the economists with their simpleminded crackpot theories about the benefits of globalization with the third world and damn the New York Times. Anyone who has been watching what was happening could see that this country's factory jobs were being shipped to low-wage countries, and that the result of that would, barring reform, be the ascension of a demagogue.
This says it all. Damn Hillary Clinton and the Democrats for not recognizing this. Damn the establishment Republicans. Damn the economists with their simpleminded crackpot theories about the benefits of globalization with the third world and damn the New York Times. Anyone who has been watching what was happening could see that this country's factory jobs were being shipped to low-wage countries, and that the result of that would, barring reform, be the ascension of a demagogue.
2
All I can say to these Carrier workers is bwahahahaha! The (bad) joke's on you. Thanks for the laugh, I really needed it this week.
1
Romney won 59% of the white vote and 6% of the black vote in 2012. Trump won 58% of the white vote and 8% of the black vote. What whitelash? How does one collect less white votes and MORE black votes, then blame it on racism?
Bottom line. Van Jones and his colleagues engaged in a campaign of fear. It was divisive, angry, hateful and most important designed to SCARE people into voting for Hilary. It failed. It failed MISERABLY. Now, these people who pushed this narrative have to lie in the bed they made. Van Jones and his ilk made this toxic environment and now he is trying to shift blame for it. And shame on the rest of the people there for not calling him out on it. This is what Van Jones sowed, he now has to reap it.
Bottom line. Van Jones and his colleagues engaged in a campaign of fear. It was divisive, angry, hateful and most important designed to SCARE people into voting for Hilary. It failed. It failed MISERABLY. Now, these people who pushed this narrative have to lie in the bed they made. Van Jones and his ilk made this toxic environment and now he is trying to shift blame for it. And shame on the rest of the people there for not calling him out on it. This is what Van Jones sowed, he now has to reap it.
4
Van Jones should be fired from CNN. Wolf Blitzer and those caught up in the WikiLeaks-DNC-Podesta scandal need to be sacked, too.
2
Brad - your three-paragraph Commentary about the Trump tells his whole life story. You could have done it in three sentences: ME! ME! ME!
2
I agree that the campaign of fear was the angry, hateful tactic that was attempted. I'm not sure how you conclude that Van Jones was largely responsible for that. It seems to me that the entire corrupt two-party system is more the culprit, and the bigwigs on both sides repeatedly forced it into every sound bite.
1
Perhaps these people don't realize that President-Elect Donald J. Trump doesn't actually BECOME President until his January 20, 2017 Inauguration and taking the presidential oath! Then and only then as President can President-Elect Donald J. Trump exert Presidential Power.
5
Did these workers learn anything from Trump's history of making promises he can't keep and then walking away with a pocket full of money. It is not like he doesn't have a well know doesn't track record. Ask his students at Trump University, the casino workers and stiffed contractors in Atlantic City, and the scores of U.S. workers he bypassed by moving his manufacturing work abroad. The NYT should check back with these people in a year and see how they are doing. Because if they don't have their jobs back they've been played for suckers.
10
Good luck, suckers. Sanders was your guy. You had a viable alternative to the status quo, a guy who actually talked in rational terms about labor issues and the growing wealth gap in this country, and you went with a psycho who just promised you things he had no intention of delivering. A serial liar and a crook. In the process you've put the whole world at risk. Clinton was a lousy candidate, but we needed to think strategically, something of which most Americans are simply incapable.
8
I am not a US citizen so I wasn't able to vote. But I really wish I would have been able to because in a globalized world, what happens in the US has an impact on other countries too. He's not going to bring back your jobs, period. And by the way, thanks to some big American companies, lots of people have lost and loose their jobs in my country, too. Companies who don't pay taxes, companies who destroy local businesses because those businesses can't compete with the dumping prices American companies offer and so on. So I'm sorry, I don't feel sorry for you. I'm angry at you! For your shortsightedness, your ignorance, your gullibility, your complete lack of understanding what this election does to your country and the rest of the world and your overall ignorance of facts. You've put a liar and narcissist in power who only thinks about himself. You're lucky if he leaves office freely in four years. Because it seems to me he's a dictator in the making.
18
My goodness, I can just imagine it - CEOs, boards of directors, shareholders - all gettin' together and saying, "Well, we've had a good run with our foreign operations, and made a huge profit, but Mr. Trump says it's time to bring the jobs back home to the USA, so, well, let's do so." Yeahhhhh - riiiiiight - I can see it now ...
10
REALLY!? REALLY?
Carriers bags were packed a long time ago. I have no pity for these ignorant people. Not only is their current job leaving the country but there is DEFINITELY nothing coming up the pike.
You asked for it, you got it! Enjoy!
Carriers bags were packed a long time ago. I have no pity for these ignorant people. Not only is their current job leaving the country but there is DEFINITELY nothing coming up the pike.
You asked for it, you got it! Enjoy!
7
In the modern global economy you follow the jobs, the jobs don't follow you. So either go to China, Mexico and Asia to find the jobs you want to work on or make yourself equipped and prepared for the jobs that are in and will be coming to US.
7
I have moved four times for work. I have gone back to school twice for work. Depending on the government to bring jobs to you? Self-reliance is American, not sitting around waiting for gov't.
The United States is exporting more goods than ever in US history. It is not China and Mexico that is taking jobs, it's robots. Now, the GOP better start telling these people the truth.
The United States is exporting more goods than ever in US history. It is not China and Mexico that is taking jobs, it's robots. Now, the GOP better start telling these people the truth.
19
Relocate? Educate yourself? Easier to vote for Trump and him to bring the prosperity to you
1
Mr. Trump is going to run the USA like a business. Regrettably it will be run like one of his businesses. P.T. Barnum was right.
14
I heard a Republican Congressman saying that they will make their promises happen unless the Democrats stop them. Huh? Fasten your seatbelts for this huckster ride. This was in some large part of frustrations fed by Fox and the new world of social media where lies go unrebutted and fraud by Trump not really examined until it was too late to make a difference. To borrow from Churchill : "He has none of the vices I like, and none of the virtues I admire."
5
I voted for Hilary but we are stuck with this and may as well see what happened. I do know when Hilary and Democrats say "union" they mean "public unions" and the teachers and AFSCME unions gave her in the mid 90 range of support. Whenever HRC types (including Republicans like Fiorina- all captive of Washington or their state capital) see this offshoring(including IT and call center, now accounting) they typically give lip service but say nothing. Maybe (and we are stuck) a bluff can be called and theses companies will at least THINK of their actions beyond cost savings. I saw that Carrier tape, and I experience similar where a company purchaser walked in and within a month at a meeting told 600 people they would be gone in 3 months. In the Carrier case, the company rep laughably told all those people to do their best job to the last day and it reminded my of Russian or Japanese commanders at Stalinigrad or Iwo Jima. We shall see but I can see why Trump won.
1
The disposable worker is nothing new. What about New England textiles an entire century ago. To marginalize the dignity of our workers as second class is not the road toward a sustainable future.
2
We need to have a list of things that Trump has promised. The move of this factory would be just one item. Every six months, we revisit the list and see how he's done.
Come on NY Times... there's something for you to do.
Come on NY Times... there's something for you to do.
10
Step 1 for Dems seeking to broaden their base: Stop talking down to people. Judging by these comments, that's a long way off...
Why don't these people start making an effort to understand the world around them? I speak in clear, coherent sentences, I read and stay well informed. There's nothing wrong with that. This idea that we have to excuse willful ignorance and bad behavior because someone is poor is ridiculous.
My parents grew up during the depression, they never used poverty as an excuse for ignorance or bad behavior.
My parents grew up during the depression, they never used poverty as an excuse for ignorance or bad behavior.
2
I bet you like to think you are a smart person Chris. Do you dumb down what you say for others?...but when you find yourself listening to something intelligent that say you cry "stop talking down to me". So which is it Chris, are you smart or not? Should I dumb down what I say so you don't feel bad about yourself?
Also, check the numbers. Our base is broader than yours. You are the minority now Chris.
Also, check the numbers. Our base is broader than yours. You are the minority now Chris.
I sense a lot of hostility here toward the folks who voted for Mr. Trump. It seems like the same sort of hostility that was earlier directed at those who voted for Mr. Sanders. What a shame we don't have the wisdom, foresight, and self-control that you do. Then all the country would be holier than all the country.
2
The News shows and newspapers should really have spent "their podium space" bluntly outlining what the Job Structure, in general, looks like. For instance, there are many Women who hold jobs that are Higher Ranked, More Powerful, More Prestigious than the USA Presidency. These bosses, don't care whether the job applicant is a birth certificate M or F. They don't care if they wear a skirt or pants like on a bathroom sign. They care that they have The Education and Professionalism and Skill Set TO DO THE JOB. These jobs are not based on a cupcake, multi-million dollar glossy poster voting contest like grade school prom king and queen selection. The "media" has blown-out this USA Presidency Election and falsely conveyed to the people that these are the best and the brightest, the most intelligent.... More Accurate Reporting is Necessary.
Indianapolis -- what? Why didn't Pence sweeten the pot? States rights and local control is the GOP mantra for dismantling the federal government. I cannot see this changing under Trump.
1
The Carrier plant here is plenty profitable. But moving to Monterrey, where workers earn in a day what they make here in an hour, will increase profits faster.... The same reason the other companies moved overseas.... greed... Hedge fund guys demand faster and bigger profits and the workers suffer... Now remind me again who is on Trump's financial advisory board ? Oh yea, hedge fund guys... yea... that's going to work out well
4
I want to know when is he going to start getting rid of all those legal loopholes that rich people (like himself) can use in order to EVADE taxes, and DITCH paying contractors and still gain money.
When he does that, and start working to fix the system that put him in the Oval Office he will earn MY respect!
When he does that, and start working to fix the system that put him in the Oval Office he will earn MY respect!
3
Every single high school educated, middle-age, out of work, financially strapped individual is absolutely correct to be very scared. They can see the drought, and they have no way to make it rain. The rains have moved to Mexico and Asia, and the winds don't seem to have any interest in changing.
Along comes a guy with a history of creating drought. Somehow, this guy has turned his drought into a brand, with enough wind to believe mother nature surely will obey. Sure, he's not a "good" person....but he can make it RAIN! Those of limited hope and less education cling on, as they have no better plan and few offering options. In 4 years, we will have had 3 of the warmest, driest years on record, and the next rainmaker will blame everyone again.
Drive through the Carrier parking lot, and count the SUV's and the foreign cars. Follow them to Walmart, and look at where the stuff in their cart came from. Watch them swing past McDonald's for a quick meal before 3 hours of TV and internet (on devices assembled entirely outside the US).
Like the housing bubble almost 10 years ago, let's blame the people who gave me the mortgage I couldn't afford, and ignore my ignorance in the pursuit of getting what's mine. Only when it's "my" job, do we care about spending more money to keep American's employed. Greed and ignorance has been outsmarted by pure greed, and those with the money have no intention of giving it back.
Along comes a guy with a history of creating drought. Somehow, this guy has turned his drought into a brand, with enough wind to believe mother nature surely will obey. Sure, he's not a "good" person....but he can make it RAIN! Those of limited hope and less education cling on, as they have no better plan and few offering options. In 4 years, we will have had 3 of the warmest, driest years on record, and the next rainmaker will blame everyone again.
Drive through the Carrier parking lot, and count the SUV's and the foreign cars. Follow them to Walmart, and look at where the stuff in their cart came from. Watch them swing past McDonald's for a quick meal before 3 hours of TV and internet (on devices assembled entirely outside the US).
Like the housing bubble almost 10 years ago, let's blame the people who gave me the mortgage I couldn't afford, and ignore my ignorance in the pursuit of getting what's mine. Only when it's "my" job, do we care about spending more money to keep American's employed. Greed and ignorance has been outsmarted by pure greed, and those with the money have no intention of giving it back.
11
I agree with you. In my first marriage, my family was lucky if we had beef other than hamburger once a month. There were no cell phones, Commodore 64s, no social media. We managed, even though I worked 2 jobs when my husband lost his. And I never borrowed from my parents. And we had a small house. The girls doubled up in 1 bedroom and the boys the other.
Now people are bemoaning their misfortune while they spend over 100 a month on cell phones, go to McDonald for a cheap $25 family meal twice a week, live in a huge house and have 2 relatively new SUVs.
Suffer some financially like my family did for awhile. It will make you stronger and put priorities in your life.
Now people are bemoaning their misfortune while they spend over 100 a month on cell phones, go to McDonald for a cheap $25 family meal twice a week, live in a huge house and have 2 relatively new SUVs.
Suffer some financially like my family did for awhile. It will make you stronger and put priorities in your life.
1
While I can empathize with these folks I truly believe they were conned. Trump said whatever he needed to when and where he needed to in order to win. I didn't vote for him because I know his history. I know most is fabricated and he is less successful than they believe.
He is also scary in his approach to 'governing' and so far the names being bandied about as part of his administration are the same Washington elite these voters thought they were railing against.
What will follow if he implements his policies is that their fortunes will be worse. The economy will not be robust for them. The jobs are gone and still going. You cannot expect to walk into a factory job for life and since the CEO's in this country stated taking more off the top for years it left very little for the bottom. And the bottom is a very grim place.
Technology and greed, two separate things, have eroded this type work. I don't believe any of it is coming back. I don't trust Trump to be able to change that. He will take care of the billionaires but blue collar will continue to suffer. I only hope for them it doesn't get worse, especially if ACA goes away with no replacement.
Be afraid, be very afraid.
He is also scary in his approach to 'governing' and so far the names being bandied about as part of his administration are the same Washington elite these voters thought they were railing against.
What will follow if he implements his policies is that their fortunes will be worse. The economy will not be robust for them. The jobs are gone and still going. You cannot expect to walk into a factory job for life and since the CEO's in this country stated taking more off the top for years it left very little for the bottom. And the bottom is a very grim place.
Technology and greed, two separate things, have eroded this type work. I don't believe any of it is coming back. I don't trust Trump to be able to change that. He will take care of the billionaires but blue collar will continue to suffer. I only hope for them it doesn't get worse, especially if ACA goes away with no replacement.
Be afraid, be very afraid.
7
Trump is what the Bible calls a false prophet.
4
Stand in line folks, DT has to give a tax break to his fellow billionaires and millionaires first. Excuse me? What did you want?
8
"Can Trump Save Their Jobs?" No, the very people who voted for him know this, too. They wanted to punish what they view as a weak president and his political party for not coming to their aids during his tenure. Good paying jobs are the only thing they want and low taxes so that they can keep the most of their hard-earned money. Well, what if the good jobs are not coming back and only people benefit from low taxes are the rich people getting richer. What if this is the case? I hope there is a sequel to this informative and respectfully written article and ask the same people what ifs...how much reserve do they have, what would they do for the health care insurance?
3
Manufacturing isn't coming back, no matter who's in office.
1
Those manufacturing jobs and other will never return. All Trump supporters voted to keep an illusion. Congratulations, you have possibly started the Apokalypse.
3
I wonder what will happen when all those Trump voters realize that he can't do anything to restore their jobs.
That could get really ugly.
That could get really ugly.
1
Willfully ignorant....these jobs are NOT coming back...drumpf's BIG LIE...these people need to be retrained to be able to perform other jobs...but the GOP won't fund that. You have bee HAD, people!! And since you voted for drumpf, you deserve you you get. Shame on you!!
1
I think that these unfortunate Carrier workers will be joining the long list of people conned or stiffed by Trump over the years - small contractors he refused to pay, investors left holding the bag when he filed his bankruptcies, Trump University students, and others. They need only take a look at his transition team - all finance and corporate types, Koch Brothers cronies, and his kids (nice to know the fate of the world is in their privileged little hands).
5
You are absolutely correct.
2
I find it incredibly sad. Much of what Trump promised he is constitutionally and/or for all practical purposes unable to address.
3
Dig deep into that pile of crow and eat it, NYT. Eat it until 2020. Remember the working class cuts through all races, ethnicities, religions, gender and sexual orientation. Until you realize that you will not win the key states you need to win again.
2
Without the Electoral College scam you wouldn't have the unfair advantage that the Koch brothers have learned to work to perfection.
5
"When he drives to work each day before dawn, Mr. Roell passes warehouse after warehouse of giants like Walmart and Kohl’s with “Help Wanted” signs outside promising jobs within. The problem is that they typically pay $13 to $15 an hour."
Moses didn't bring those numbers $13 and $15 down from that Meeting up Mount Sinai.
Those are the wages of workers who don't join unions.
-dlj.
Moses didn't bring those numbers $13 and $15 down from that Meeting up Mount Sinai.
Those are the wages of workers who don't join unions.
-dlj.
5
Turnover in these jobs tends to run above 100% per year, too.
2
What we need is a Carrier Pigeon to help us find our way back to sanity.
Who could really believe what donald has said or done over the decades.
Who could really believe what donald has said or done over the decades.
2
I thought the people I saw in that famous video this newspaper posted of the "profane white trailer trash Trump supporters" epitomized ignorance.
And then I read many of the comments on this article by the "tolerant", "educated", "intelligent", "open-minded" limousine liberals.
And now I can confidently say that I know what true ignorance looks like.
These people--black and white, men and women, the Hispanic neighbor, and the Burmese-American immigrants--are better Americans than 90% of the readership of The New York Times.
The challenges that Mr. Schwartz listed in this excellent piece of journalism are accurate, and they are daunting. They are the same challenges that confront every country on this planet.
No country--not a single one--has a better chance at conquering them than America does. And that's only because of people like those portrayed in this article.
And then I read many of the comments on this article by the "tolerant", "educated", "intelligent", "open-minded" limousine liberals.
And now I can confidently say that I know what true ignorance looks like.
These people--black and white, men and women, the Hispanic neighbor, and the Burmese-American immigrants--are better Americans than 90% of the readership of The New York Times.
The challenges that Mr. Schwartz listed in this excellent piece of journalism are accurate, and they are daunting. They are the same challenges that confront every country on this planet.
No country--not a single one--has a better chance at conquering them than America does. And that's only because of people like those portrayed in this article.
2
I worked my way out of poverty and into a comfortable middle class standard of living. I've gone hungry at times. I'm no limousine liberal. What I am is a hard working person who did what I had to survive and thrive and I'm someone who stays informed about the world around me and yes I think I'm better than an ignorant bigot who is too lazy to turn off the TV and study who to vote for.
1
The election is over, little guy. You swallowed the bait, hook, line, and sinker. Your vote, like your job, is not needed now. Your boss has Trump's ear, not you. On the bright side, there may be some fruit-picking jobs opening up soon.
8
If Carrier does not keep their product cost competitive, then the very American workers spoken of here will buy another, cheaper brand. Furniture manufacturing is not coming back to North Carolina, because Americans prefer to buy Ikea. Boeing isn't going to stop outsourcing overseas, because airlines can always buy an Airbus that does. Very few Americans buy American-made clothes, because fast fashion is all made more cheaply overseas. We Americans buy foreign-made because it is cheaper.
2
Trump undoubtedly has "over-promised," but I think this comment is unfair. I have almost no doubt we'll be safer from foreign wars with Trump than we'd have been had HRC won:
"Of course, there's always the military if they can get in because if these guys have their way there will be another World War."
When I expected (like nearly everyone else) that HRC would win, I was worrying about her vow to establish a "no fly zone" in Syria. What, I wondered, would she do when Russian and Syrian jets violated a "no fly zone" established by some country (the US) half a world away, as almost certainly they would? Would HRC back down, making us look weak? Would she flip-flop, deciding that maybe we didn't need a no-fly zone in Syria after all (frankly, I was hoping she WOULD flip-flop on that one)? Or would she shoot down Russian plans, thereby risking a thermonuclear war with Russia over some jerkwater Middle East country whose dictators we'd tolerated for decades and that most Americans couldn't even find on a map?
Trump has many, many shortcomings, but this ain't one of them. I'm confident we'll get involved in fewer stupid foreign wars than we'd have jumped into had HRC won.
"Of course, there's always the military if they can get in because if these guys have their way there will be another World War."
When I expected (like nearly everyone else) that HRC would win, I was worrying about her vow to establish a "no fly zone" in Syria. What, I wondered, would she do when Russian and Syrian jets violated a "no fly zone" established by some country (the US) half a world away, as almost certainly they would? Would HRC back down, making us look weak? Would she flip-flop, deciding that maybe we didn't need a no-fly zone in Syria after all (frankly, I was hoping she WOULD flip-flop on that one)? Or would she shoot down Russian plans, thereby risking a thermonuclear war with Russia over some jerkwater Middle East country whose dictators we'd tolerated for decades and that most Americans couldn't even find on a map?
Trump has many, many shortcomings, but this ain't one of them. I'm confident we'll get involved in fewer stupid foreign wars than we'd have jumped into had HRC won.
1
Trump is temperamentally an extremely belligerent fellow. Your character judgment is awesome.
4
Look at who he is surrounding himself with. "meet the new boss, same as the old boss". Got a bad economy? Go to war. As Eisenhower wrote in his parting speech, "beware the military industrial congressional complex". He dropped the word congressional when he gave it as he gave it to Congress. Whether it's uniforms, bullets, fighter jets, or submarines, every congressional district gets jobs as a result.
2
I hope the NYT will continue to cover this story and do a follow-up when these people realize that they have been sold a grotesque bill of goods.
4
Trump is already backing off his wildest claims, which is a good thing for sane Americans but the folk who voted for him precisely because of them are not going to be happy, he will give them just enuf to keep them docile
2
"enough to keep them docile". He can't do that either.This is what is the saddest, Trump went right to their deepest fears and promise he ("and hr alone") will make it all better. He can't, he won't, and this is a conversation the entire nation must have. This country has tried protectionism before and it has always backfired.
2
Oh sweet summer children.
There may indeed be a Great Pumpkin, but he isn't bringing candy. And I'm sorry you're going to suffer from the consequences of your vote. Unfortunately, so will the rest of us.
There may indeed be a Great Pumpkin, but he isn't bringing candy. And I'm sorry you're going to suffer from the consequences of your vote. Unfortunately, so will the rest of us.
6
"What fools these mortals be"
4
How do people in this predicament not see that Trump would do EXACTLY THE SAME THING that these corporate executives are doing if he were faced with these decisions? Recall: he chose to buy Chinese steel and aluminum products for his grandiose towers in Chicago and Las Vegas. That is the reality. I despair at the poor reasoning ability of my fellow Americas. Demagogues will always find a willing audience, but half the voters in the country?
20
He won't do a thing for these people and everybody knows it. They got suckered; what else is new. At least their boss will get a tax cut!
10
Carrier will do what is best for their bottom line and shareholders. Trump thinks he is a one man show that can save jobs going to Mexico. Heartbreaking that there will be many disappointed Americans that thought he would save their jobs. Trump was able to fool many Americans but not all.
5
What the "elites" have been trying to tell you is that Trump is a con man. However, you all decided that you know better and elected the poster child for the problem anyway.
When you realize you've been conned and what are you going to do about it? We tried to warn you ...
When you realize you've been conned and what are you going to do about it? We tried to warn you ...
12
Wow.
I am astounded that so many people believed that Trump can force companies to keep factories and manufacturing plants in the United States and, even further, make them bring back blue collar jobs to the United States.
Four years is a long time to live in a state of regret about your vote.
Next time, maybe pay more attention to how the man you are voting for has conducted his own business.
Trump had choices. He could have taken less profits and bought US steel (not China steel) and hired US citizen workers---maybe even union workers (not non-citizen workers with work permits) and manufactured his wide array of Trump-Brand products in the US.....which he didn't.
It's inexplicable why millions of people who are trying to make ends meet and living paycheck to paycheck, and have lost jobs they will never regain, voted for a man whose only connection with them is that he has "hired thousands and thousands of people." Trump has never had to suffer economically for one New York Minute.
If.....when.....Trump fails to keep his promises.....no tears will be shed for the thousands who bought those stupid hats (profits to Trump) and yelled 'Lock Her Up" at his rallies and had their 15-16 months of glee at the prospect of beating Hillary Clinton and "Making America Great Again."
I am astounded that so many people believed that Trump can force companies to keep factories and manufacturing plants in the United States and, even further, make them bring back blue collar jobs to the United States.
Four years is a long time to live in a state of regret about your vote.
Next time, maybe pay more attention to how the man you are voting for has conducted his own business.
Trump had choices. He could have taken less profits and bought US steel (not China steel) and hired US citizen workers---maybe even union workers (not non-citizen workers with work permits) and manufactured his wide array of Trump-Brand products in the US.....which he didn't.
It's inexplicable why millions of people who are trying to make ends meet and living paycheck to paycheck, and have lost jobs they will never regain, voted for a man whose only connection with them is that he has "hired thousands and thousands of people." Trump has never had to suffer economically for one New York Minute.
If.....when.....Trump fails to keep his promises.....no tears will be shed for the thousands who bought those stupid hats (profits to Trump) and yelled 'Lock Her Up" at his rallies and had their 15-16 months of glee at the prospect of beating Hillary Clinton and "Making America Great Again."
13
Can't wait for all the job growth under President Trump and his great outsider advisers: Newt Gingrich, Chris Christie and Jamie Dimon. Going to be great. Huge. Hasn't Chris Christie done great things in New Jersey?
15
Republicans in Congress are already saying they won't grant Don his trillion-dollar infrastructure monies.
See there, Don? That is how government works, like it or not. They yanked the job-creating magic wand you claimed would allow you to alone fix problems. Liar.
To the Hillary bashers who wanted Sanders, give it a rest, and stop calling those of us who support her mere trolls. Plenty of baggage was likely to come out about Sanders, including his stance on Kosovo. Good at yelling, but no real policy plans.
Still, how nice it must be to not have had to risk him to the combing over Clinton got, letting you remain smugly certain Sanders can do no wrong, has no faults whatsoever, and, despite being an Independent, was owed preference by the DNC over Clinton, the DEMOCRAT.
See there, Don? That is how government works, like it or not. They yanked the job-creating magic wand you claimed would allow you to alone fix problems. Liar.
To the Hillary bashers who wanted Sanders, give it a rest, and stop calling those of us who support her mere trolls. Plenty of baggage was likely to come out about Sanders, including his stance on Kosovo. Good at yelling, but no real policy plans.
Still, how nice it must be to not have had to risk him to the combing over Clinton got, letting you remain smugly certain Sanders can do no wrong, has no faults whatsoever, and, despite being an Independent, was owed preference by the DNC over Clinton, the DEMOCRAT.
6
Bernie never even thanked Hillary for her refusal to do any dirty work on him for the Republicans.
2
Don't worry about the Sanders supporters, concern yourself with the millions of people in swing states who simply stayed home. Concern yourself with the horrible planning and organization of the dems who failed to get out the vote.
Hillary Clinton, 69 years old, lifelong political insider, millions of dollars to spend, an army of experienced functionaries, running for the second time, and she got beat by a lunatic whose main attribute was his opposable thumbs.
But you and Podesta and all of her apologists will tell yourselves that it's Bernie's fault, forgetting that Bernie was the one who said during a debate to forget about the email issue and after he lost that his followers should unite behind her.
She was a bad candidate. One day you'll be able to wrap your head around that fact.
Hillary Clinton, 69 years old, lifelong political insider, millions of dollars to spend, an army of experienced functionaries, running for the second time, and she got beat by a lunatic whose main attribute was his opposable thumbs.
But you and Podesta and all of her apologists will tell yourselves that it's Bernie's fault, forgetting that Bernie was the one who said during a debate to forget about the email issue and after he lost that his followers should unite behind her.
She was a bad candidate. One day you'll be able to wrap your head around that fact.
What was Hillary's plan to save these jobs? Oh that's right, she wanted to vote for that Gold Standard TPP trade deal to ship more out. The NY Times revels in predicting Trump's failure, but seems to have forgotten neither Obama or Clinton had a plan to help these people. I guess if you don't protest or spend 24x7 focused on social issues, you don't count to Dems and the NY Times. As Obama said - he won, deal with it.
2
[[As Obama said - he won, deal with it.]]
That's the irony…that message will soon resonate for the people who voted for Trump.
That's the irony…that message will soon resonate for the people who voted for Trump.
The stupidity of the masses knows no bounds. If these folks and the coal folks and the polluters think that their jobs are coming back they will soon learn they have been deceived. In my opinion it will not take long for these unenlightened and uninformed people to realize that Trump administration, with all his right wing and evangelical cronies will make a mess out of just about anything they touch. The problem is they will take all of us down with them.
3
Any worker who believes, that the Party that has done everything they possibly can to destroy Organized Labor, and undermine the rights of workers, is now going to help them, is about to learn a lesson. I hope they remember it, this time.
13
if on doesn't learn from history, they are destined to repeat it. Famous last words, "no...really, I will be different".
Let's see... The RepubliCons have been calling themselves the party of Job Creators since SaintRonnie was in charge. And yet economic facts show that each RepubliCon administration has only increased national indebtedness and worsened the domestic job market.
http://politicsthatwork.com/democrats-create-more-jobs.php
The latest representatives of the Party of No have created nothing but wasteful witchhunts, and absolutely done nothing to create jobs. Pres-elect GrabAPu$$ is somehow going to turn that around and suddenly force 'job creators' to stay local?
http://politicsthatwork.com/democrats-create-more-jobs.php
The latest representatives of the Party of No have created nothing but wasteful witchhunts, and absolutely done nothing to create jobs. Pres-elect GrabAPu$$ is somehow going to turn that around and suddenly force 'job creators' to stay local?
10
When you vote for Hate and Change, but the Change doesn't come, what are you going to be left with?
10
RE: “Hillary hasn’t sweated a day in her life, unless it was losing a tough case as a lawyer,” Mr. Maynard said.
This is one of those "truths" spoken of Hillary that demonstrates that facts aren't necessary and that it didn't matter they are all simply excuses to vote for Trump as invariably the same, more and worse, is true of Trump.
As I was out raking and bagging leaves, clearly debris from the yard, and happened to wonder if Trump ever had to do the same and thought not. Did he ever shovel snow or mow a lawn to earn money as a kid? Did he ever have to wait table or wash dishes? Those are the kind of things that people do for you. Paying them for their work, of course, has always been optional.
That Clinton grew up in a small business owner's middle class house and mid-west neighborhood with a better understanding of the average small business rather than in a real estate tycoon's home where million dollar loans are the norm.
Not that it matters at this point. The people believe the tycoon, for who Air Force 1 could actually be a step down from his gold plated personal plane, understands their problems and will save them.
This is one of those "truths" spoken of Hillary that demonstrates that facts aren't necessary and that it didn't matter they are all simply excuses to vote for Trump as invariably the same, more and worse, is true of Trump.
As I was out raking and bagging leaves, clearly debris from the yard, and happened to wonder if Trump ever had to do the same and thought not. Did he ever shovel snow or mow a lawn to earn money as a kid? Did he ever have to wait table or wash dishes? Those are the kind of things that people do for you. Paying them for their work, of course, has always been optional.
That Clinton grew up in a small business owner's middle class house and mid-west neighborhood with a better understanding of the average small business rather than in a real estate tycoon's home where million dollar loans are the norm.
Not that it matters at this point. The people believe the tycoon, for who Air Force 1 could actually be a step down from his gold plated personal plane, understands their problems and will save them.
11
Manufacturing and Products such as Carrier are being phased-out. I am even surprised Carrier is bothering to move to Mexico. Obsolete. Production of products as well as Distribution are no longer thought about in a nationalistic country way. They are thought about in a worldly way, at The World Level. On The WORLD Level. One World.
What is not changing is the reasonable expectation of good employees, professional employees. Most likely these two workers in this photograph will be given more education as opposed to "plug-in" useless out-of-date training. Just because Trump/Pence say it is so...like Kings... it doesn't make it true, and the rest of the world, the rest of the planet, have to follow their Lack of Education and Information, their Desires and Dreams. Their Resumes are definitely NOT NEAR those who are hired in The Private Sector. I assume Trump/Pence will be BYPASSED. People need to take another look at EUROPE. I would think that there is something going on in "one of those small" countries that have a much Higher Educated Workforce (as well as appreciated) that INVENT NEW PRODUCTS.
The USA people and employees in this photograph have a right to know that these metal big box Carrier units, for example, are now openly and matter-of-factly referred to as "hunks of junk" not only by The Millenials who are still in School, being Educated. But, by a large amount of the USA University and Corporate Workforce. It is Trump/Pence who are Out-of-Touch.
What is not changing is the reasonable expectation of good employees, professional employees. Most likely these two workers in this photograph will be given more education as opposed to "plug-in" useless out-of-date training. Just because Trump/Pence say it is so...like Kings... it doesn't make it true, and the rest of the world, the rest of the planet, have to follow their Lack of Education and Information, their Desires and Dreams. Their Resumes are definitely NOT NEAR those who are hired in The Private Sector. I assume Trump/Pence will be BYPASSED. People need to take another look at EUROPE. I would think that there is something going on in "one of those small" countries that have a much Higher Educated Workforce (as well as appreciated) that INVENT NEW PRODUCTS.
The USA people and employees in this photograph have a right to know that these metal big box Carrier units, for example, are now openly and matter-of-factly referred to as "hunks of junk" not only by The Millenials who are still in School, being Educated. But, by a large amount of the USA University and Corporate Workforce. It is Trump/Pence who are Out-of-Touch.
"These are fundamental forces that have more to do with technology than with trade." -- John Van Rennes, MIT
Since Trump promises to roll back so many other aspects of American culture to the 1950s, perhaps we can roll back some of our technology too?
There could be lots of jobs wiring up computers out of discrete transistors, and stringing magnetic cores by hand. And Google could store all its data on IBM punch cards. Everybody would be happy!
Since Trump promises to roll back so many other aspects of American culture to the 1950s, perhaps we can roll back some of our technology too?
There could be lots of jobs wiring up computers out of discrete transistors, and stringing magnetic cores by hand. And Google could store all its data on IBM punch cards. Everybody would be happy!
5
Lots of good comments here. I don't know how these jobs are going to come back with our economic system built the way it is. The only thing I can say is if you are struggling, don't have kids. They are expensive and they need jobs to at some point. There is no magic wand here. If Trump is smart and powerful enough to make a sea change, I will eat my words. He may start one but we have a big, old system and a lot of powerful people who don't want it to change. I think the young organic farmers have it right - work hard, produce something good, and don't put a lot of value in material goods/buying junk.
3
I feel really sorry for all these people. They seem to be so ignorant.I was like them before. I work in IT and used to think no one can take my job away. Then the flood of H1B's came and then the outsourcing companies. Last five years getting a 3-6 month contracting assignment became a big achievement.Chances are more to be outdated and become obsolete in information technology easily.I learned the lesson hard way.
At the same time there are tons of opportunities in bay area and decided to learn some new big data tools.There are some great sites like udacity, udemy,etc..develop networking..attend frequently some seminars and conferences..
Yes I know it is very tough..I am in my mid 40's and with 2 kids it is really tough studying like 3-4 months continuously ..no choice. Need to do it.
Trump can't make any change. He just talks and provokes the people with no any real solution.This is the reality.In IT outsourcing is happening from 2000.So better learn new and marketable skills and move on. Don't expect anything from Trump.Then you are stuck forever.Just do it for your family and stop thinking about Trump.
At the same time there are tons of opportunities in bay area and decided to learn some new big data tools.There are some great sites like udacity, udemy,etc..develop networking..attend frequently some seminars and conferences..
Yes I know it is very tough..I am in my mid 40's and with 2 kids it is really tough studying like 3-4 months continuously ..no choice. Need to do it.
Trump can't make any change. He just talks and provokes the people with no any real solution.This is the reality.In IT outsourcing is happening from 2000.So better learn new and marketable skills and move on. Don't expect anything from Trump.Then you are stuck forever.Just do it for your family and stop thinking about Trump.
4
My heart aches for these people.
And yet, I cannot comprehend their gullibility.
And yet, I cannot comprehend their gullibility.
8
So these workers want something other than capitalism, huh? Some government intervention and control of the nation's economics, huh?
9
As Paper Collar Joe loved to say "there is a sucker born every minute... and two to take 'em." Trump and the GOP will really work these people over and then spit them out all the while having them convinced that it was the Democrats who are to blame.
Anyone who cares to look up MANEMP on the Fred database will quickly realize that since 1981 the only two Presidents to have produced manufacturing jobs are Clinton and, yes indeed, Obama. And yes, St. Ronnie left office with the country counting less manufacturing jobs than there were when he took office.
Anyone who cares to look up MANEMP on the Fred database will quickly realize that since 1981 the only two Presidents to have produced manufacturing jobs are Clinton and, yes indeed, Obama. And yes, St. Ronnie left office with the country counting less manufacturing jobs than there were when he took office.
7
Nostalgia and amnesia are a dangerous combination.
5
"Well, we’re going to hold him to it."
That's it; put your full faith and trust in a compulsive liar and then hope that he told YOU the truth. The man is already flipping and flopping, and he's just warming up.
How are you going to hold him to it? By not supporting his reelection bid in 2020? Guys, that's four years too late.
That's it; put your full faith and trust in a compulsive liar and then hope that he told YOU the truth. The man is already flipping and flopping, and he's just warming up.
How are you going to hold him to it? By not supporting his reelection bid in 2020? Guys, that's four years too late.
10
More than 3,000,000! people have signed a petition to award
the presidency to Clinton based on her winning the popular vote.
the presidency to Clinton based on her winning the popular vote.
7
…because that's how this process works.
The huge fallacy in the Trump campaign for job loss was that "the Democrats did it". American manufacturing all but disappeared because private enterprise, not government, found that it could sent its stuff to China to build, to improve its bottom line.
Repeat: govt didn't do it. and good 'conservatives' should not ask govt to fix the problem.
You elected the wrong person. Just like you did in '00 and 04'.
Repeat: govt didn't do it. and good 'conservatives' should not ask govt to fix the problem.
You elected the wrong person. Just like you did in '00 and 04'.
11
I really hope they can somehow keep their jobs and if not, find a new one asap.
3
Gullibles né deplorables. Thanks for your most selfish vote.
1
It would no hardship to follow one's job to Mexico which is a very nice country, in many ways nicer than our own. We escape there whenever we can. Winters especially. JGAIA
Your kidding, right?
I'm getting a bumper sticker that says "Where's The Wall, Y'all?"
1
This is the first day of Trump's first class at school. These are Trump's big biz buddies who include his potential cabinet who with Trump's proposed tax plan, will still make out "even greater" financially than the working class. Anyone care to bet on the outcome?
Remember the Mid-Terms and vote!
7
So the party of capitalism and limited government now wants the government to intervene to save their jobs from the effects of capitalism. Maybe we can just tell them what they've been telling minorities for years: stop asking for help from the government and get an education so you can get a real job.
9
"...what animates these voters, whatever their race or political orientation, is a profound distrust and resentment of wealthier, educated Americans."
And there we have it. Poor stupid people got the dumbest president since Andrew Johnson. Have at it, folks.
And there we have it. Poor stupid people got the dumbest president since Andrew Johnson. Have at it, folks.
7
I am deeply saddened - but not totally surprised. Trump came in and sold all who voted for him a pack of lies.
Political leaders on both sides are to blame. No one is exempt.
For years - decades - a large number of people have been telling everyone, who would listen, that "the old ways of doing things are gone," or at least fast disappearing.
No one - with a few exceptions - has had the guts, to try and train, educate, and encourage people to face reality.
Truth 1. Education/training
Never become complacent. High School diploma will not ever be enough. Not any more. Even college educated workforce must be nimble, and be ready to take charge of their future. Stop thinking that all you have to do is show up, punch a time clock and pick up your paycheck. Learn to grow! Take charge of your own future and NEVER depend on on job skill set.
Truth 2. Career | Job stability
Jobs will never, ever, be stable or can be counted on. Corporations are geared to one thing - Profit (Translation - huge stock option bonuses for senior leaders) They will lay you off in a second, if your job stands between you and that bonus.
Truth 3. Jobs
Stop talking about jobs. That is an 18th century term. The year is 2016, not 1916. Think "MARKETABLE JOB SKILLS." Never count on a "job." Doing so is foolish and a waste of time. Instead, work toward building marketable skills, training, and education that can be, at a moments notice, transferred to another job with another employer.
Political leaders on both sides are to blame. No one is exempt.
For years - decades - a large number of people have been telling everyone, who would listen, that "the old ways of doing things are gone," or at least fast disappearing.
No one - with a few exceptions - has had the guts, to try and train, educate, and encourage people to face reality.
Truth 1. Education/training
Never become complacent. High School diploma will not ever be enough. Not any more. Even college educated workforce must be nimble, and be ready to take charge of their future. Stop thinking that all you have to do is show up, punch a time clock and pick up your paycheck. Learn to grow! Take charge of your own future and NEVER depend on on job skill set.
Truth 2. Career | Job stability
Jobs will never, ever, be stable or can be counted on. Corporations are geared to one thing - Profit (Translation - huge stock option bonuses for senior leaders) They will lay you off in a second, if your job stands between you and that bonus.
Truth 3. Jobs
Stop talking about jobs. That is an 18th century term. The year is 2016, not 1916. Think "MARKETABLE JOB SKILLS." Never count on a "job." Doing so is foolish and a waste of time. Instead, work toward building marketable skills, training, and education that can be, at a moments notice, transferred to another job with another employer.
2
Sadly, Wall Street doesn't have to control the country. Steep Tariffs can certainly stop the loss of companies and jobs. Americans should only buy goods made in the U.S.A. Like all the other countries do.
Trump can do many things, but he can't fire robots.
5
Doing nothing never works and that is what our government has been doing.
1
Dream on folks, Actionman is busy...
3
The reality here is many of these dislocated workers chose not to attend college, and now that their jobs were lost to global capitalism, hesitate to retrain... Instead, they've chosen to pursue a path that they believe will be the easier way out:
Cast their votes on the false premise that an elitist blowhard billionaire liar, and the billionaire owned lying Republicans, will bring back their old jobs and pass them out on a silver platter...
Voila! No personal effort required...
Boy, are they in for a surprise. The surprise that those they just put in power are the very same selfish global capitalists who removed their jobs.
And then when things don't pan out, they'll tune into FOX Nooz and, once again, blame brown folks and the poor for their plight... because blame is easier than self reflection....
Easier in the short term, that is.
Cast their votes on the false premise that an elitist blowhard billionaire liar, and the billionaire owned lying Republicans, will bring back their old jobs and pass them out on a silver platter...
Voila! No personal effort required...
Boy, are they in for a surprise. The surprise that those they just put in power are the very same selfish global capitalists who removed their jobs.
And then when things don't pan out, they'll tune into FOX Nooz and, once again, blame brown folks and the poor for their plight... because blame is easier than self reflection....
Easier in the short term, that is.
6
Trump has no to TPP and he said he'll renegotiate NAFTA and Canada said yes (They don't have any choice.) Many comments here else keep saying jobs will not come back. Oh the defeatist left. Companies make business decisions mostly on economics. The US has become very business unfriendly compared to other options. Make the US attractive and business will return.
I can tell you for sure paying $15 per hour for $5 per hour jobs such as bagging groceries and flipping burgers is no answer.
I can tell you for sure paying $15 per hour for $5 per hour jobs such as bagging groceries and flipping burgers is no answer.
1
Even self-service checkout is automated now.
2
At $5 per hour, the Carrier jobs won't leave the US. What exactly is your point? That if every worker in an exportable category works for the same wage as overseas, the jobs won't go overseas?
I'm curious. Who will do the heavy work involved to lift the factories over the wall?
7
Trump doesn't support the raising on the minimum wage and could probably care less about unions. If you're a worker here or at any kind of job like it, plan on working for a lot less money under Trump while he gloats about all the jobs he brought back to this country. Make America Great Again is a slogan for dopes with no education.
6
Yep, they bought his carnival barker routine. As P.T. Barnum (who Trump obviously studied) said "There's a Sucker born every minute".
Past behavior coupled with conservative ideology confirms that Republicans are not going to fund anything Trump has promised. So, odds are, things will not improve and will likely get worse for those who can ill-afford it. Once election season rolls around he will be raging around the Country, proclaiming his dedication to his base and lying about all the things he wanted to do, tried to do for them...but those swamp monsters in Washington just wouldn't let him, it's their fault...but I've got a new plan, a great, a plan that will fix it all quickly...now I have Washington experience (these guys are more crooked than even I thought!) and only I know how to beat these guys. There it is, best get ready now, Democrats, because people will be willing to buy this con for the second time.
3
I agree. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me!"
Some of these folks ffamilies should head to Trump Tower in NY and try to meet the president elect to ask for the promise to be fulfilled.
7
They will have to climb over the dump trucks, Jersey barriers, cops and Secret Service. I'm sure it will work out great.
It is almost exactly the same story in Brexit when the UK Labour Party would not go into the traditional white working class homelands..I was pro brexit for democratic reasons and anti Trump (or UKIP in UK) because they are horrifically anti human rights. Trump supporters were emailing me on the forums with my own words I used to justify brexit -ie in Brexit I was telling people to "get out of their bubbles" and then Trump supporters were emailing me the same words when I was anti Trump
1
Read visionary Yuval Harari for insight into the reality of our times. Basically, eventually there'll be proportionately less jobs per person. Maybe 20% will only be needed to 'work'. What system can make this a good thing..cause it should be-- great tech, organizations should be good for all of us.. but we can see why it is just good for a few..shouldn't be...
--w
--w
1
Workers expecting winning candidate to make good their election promises?
And which world do they live in?
And which world do they live in?
5
some people further their education and are able to get jobs within days since they are in the tech field. STOP asking the President to fix your motivation and determination to pull yourself up and do better financially. There is magic.
5
Really? That's all there is to it? Well thanks for letting us know.
We can talk Krugman and policy all we want, but I think the great economist and philosopher Bruce Springsteen captured it best back in the 80s when this started happening. It's a global economy and the cat's not going back in the bag.
Now Main Street's whitewashed windows and vacant stores
Seems like there ain't nobody wants to come down here no more
They're closing down the textile mill across the railroad tracks
Foreman says these jobs are going boys and they ain't coming back to your hometown
Now Main Street's whitewashed windows and vacant stores
Seems like there ain't nobody wants to come down here no more
They're closing down the textile mill across the railroad tracks
Foreman says these jobs are going boys and they ain't coming back to your hometown
5
The same key traits that keep these people unemployed and unemployable also prompted their vote for Trump. Those traits are ignorance and refusal to change. They need to move to where jobs are and they need to train to do them.
12
Your dumb Trump voter narrative is hogwash. Trump won amongst those with a bachelors degree and those making above 100k. Hillary won the illiterate and sub 50k voters.
The Trump supporters complain when they are referred to as uneducated and uninformed. But surely even a high school drop out can read a simple graph like the one in your article. 2000-2008 manufacturing jobs headed straight down. 2008- 2015 manufacturing jobs headed straight up. Which party was president during those periods. Duh!!!!
But BTW NY Times, you did a terrible job of pointing out things like that during the election choosing instead to spend your front pages equating the chance of Hillary losing to a football player's chance of kicking a field goal. Seriously - all you and the rest of the mainstream media did was liken the election to a sports game. The uneducated masses may have needed to have facts rammed down their throats but no one even tried to do that, just quoted the nonsense Trump was spouting cause it made a good headline.
But BTW NY Times, you did a terrible job of pointing out things like that during the election choosing instead to spend your front pages equating the chance of Hillary losing to a football player's chance of kicking a field goal. Seriously - all you and the rest of the mainstream media did was liken the election to a sports game. The uneducated masses may have needed to have facts rammed down their throats but no one even tried to do that, just quoted the nonsense Trump was spouting cause it made a good headline.
31
Let's see how Mitch McConnell and the country club golf whacking Republican set respond to an overture from Mr. Trump about this.
Oh, and let's not forget Paul Ryan, clutching his copy of Ayn Rand....
Oh, and let's not forget Paul Ryan, clutching his copy of Ayn Rand....
5
Carrier employees, do you really think Donald Trump is going to be doing anything for you? Now that he has your votes, he will be taking care of himself and his rich white cronies. Good luck with your upcoming job search.
6
It's hard to feel sorry for them. They shop for the lowest prices at Wal-Mart while all the Mom and Pop stores in small towns close. They watch Fox News and vote for the same GOP politicians . Trump is going to fail them . They voted against their own self interest and don't realize it.
7
Dear Mr. Trump, From the factories to the steel mills to the coal mines, all of these poor, hard working people have bought your lies. When you become president, what do you plan to tell them?
4
He'll probably tell them it's all the fault of immigrants or minorities or "liberal elites." And he'll stoke their anger and fear. And they will buy it. We're really in a mess.
1
And the vast grand betrayal ensues.
3
Yes, as many of said, these workers will be worse, not better, off with Trump.
3
After 30 years of voting for those that told them to pull themselves up by their boot straps and tax breaks to the rich will trickle down to them and government is the problem not the solution they want government's help.
Best of luck after you voted for the same people.
Best of luck after you voted for the same people.
8
So the intellectual elite of this country, the doctors, researchers, academics and scientists that make this world work for the rest of you, have to wait until the lowest of America realize the hard way what we knew months ago? Talk about the tail wagging the dog.
6
Some people would vote for Satan if he promised to ban abortions, protect their guns, put LGBT people back in closets, and/or create manufacturing jobs. In fact, many people did just that last Tuesday. Bless their gullible little hearts.
8
Well I guess those quoted here will be voting the other way...then the other way, the next time...and so it will go.
You cant elect a national candidate hoping to fix a local issue. Which is actually what these people at Carrier and elsewhere were thinking and believing Trump can do. He can't. He's not going to fix my local tax burdens, or my local employment problems. Thats for me, and others in my locale to work on.
Plus cutting tax rates isnt fixing the multi-layered loopholes that guys like Trump can and do make liberal use of. (to no fault of their own) Do these Carrier employees think Trump is going to tighten up the Real Estate loss write-offs that allowed him to take multiple year write-offs? Do they think he will hurt his own family for them? If so...you all need your heads examined!
What is it with a certain demographic that keeps voting for these self-professed GOP Saviors of the little guy? Cant they read, let alone experience history? No one megalomaniac can work miracles, period! The GOP keeps urposely hurting you!
Carrier ain't staying and Trump can't, nor will he stop them! So he taxes their imports (if he manages to) - they'll sell elsewhere, allowing still imported but lesser taxed goods to take their place. Duh!
Many at Carrier and elsewhere claimed to have previously voted for "Obama's change." But then failed to vote out the GOP demagogues who resisted his changes!! Basically hamstringing Trump before he ever takes the oath!
Wake up!
You cant elect a national candidate hoping to fix a local issue. Which is actually what these people at Carrier and elsewhere were thinking and believing Trump can do. He can't. He's not going to fix my local tax burdens, or my local employment problems. Thats for me, and others in my locale to work on.
Plus cutting tax rates isnt fixing the multi-layered loopholes that guys like Trump can and do make liberal use of. (to no fault of their own) Do these Carrier employees think Trump is going to tighten up the Real Estate loss write-offs that allowed him to take multiple year write-offs? Do they think he will hurt his own family for them? If so...you all need your heads examined!
What is it with a certain demographic that keeps voting for these self-professed GOP Saviors of the little guy? Cant they read, let alone experience history? No one megalomaniac can work miracles, period! The GOP keeps urposely hurting you!
Carrier ain't staying and Trump can't, nor will he stop them! So he taxes their imports (if he manages to) - they'll sell elsewhere, allowing still imported but lesser taxed goods to take their place. Duh!
Many at Carrier and elsewhere claimed to have previously voted for "Obama's change." But then failed to vote out the GOP demagogues who resisted his changes!! Basically hamstringing Trump before he ever takes the oath!
Wake up!
2
The biggest change is America is that a huge swath of white Americans are, or soon will be, as bad off as blacks and Hispanics. "Whitelash" is a pretty accurate, if awkward, phrase.
2
I feel sad for the people who voted for Trump and are counting on him to raise their standard of living. We still don't even know how well Trump was able to run his own business empire. If he is doing so well why not share his tax returns? The people Trump is looking at for his cabinet have not been so successful in their endeavors either. I think people have been duped and so it will be a long 4 years.
1
We already know that the tax plan is designed exclusively to benefit the 1%. Next, these folks are going to learn about Ryan and McConnell's plans for social security and Medicare.
Sad to watch this scam unfold. Trump is Madoff on a national scale. As much as he is repellent, Pence, Ryan, McConnell are far more dangerous and will run the show.
Sad to watch this scam unfold. Trump is Madoff on a national scale. As much as he is repellent, Pence, Ryan, McConnell are far more dangerous and will run the show.
1
Silly wabbit... Tricks are for kids.
3
A Trump voter threatened that “If he doesn’t pass that tariff, I will vote the other way next time”. Sorry but much damage can be done in 4 years and it will be too late for this voter and others who are counting on Trump. It's like saying that if the State executes me for a crime I did not commit, the next time around I will get a better lawyer to defend me.
2
Ignorance of economics, science, technology, and history leaves one vulnerable to demagoguery. Almost every job lost is gone forever, my sad Carrier folk. No "clean coal" exists or can. No tariff ever made life easier since it raised the costs of imports almost immediately and depressed export demand soon too, leaving you in a depressed national and international economy -- but still owing the same old mortgage and needing the same old government services. A lose-lose proposition.
Read, study, learn.
Get your tail off the café chair and bar stool, leave the church pew where the "Gospel of Greed" battles with that of humble love. Start a new life. Carrier is gone. Coal is gone. The canals are already built. Build tomorrow, don't mourn yesteryear. And watch Trump collapse your mildly insane dreams of quick fixes, easy remedies, and the miracle of cost-free "greatness". Like the old bar's "free lunch", there is no free anything and never was. Or will be. You had a chance to earn your future with help from Obama and Clinton. You took the easy way out? You wasted 1 vote and 4 years. OK, it's ok. As Leonard Cohen said, everything has cracks, but that's how the light leaks in. Walk toward the light, work, innovate, rebuild yourself. Move on.
Read, study, learn.
Get your tail off the café chair and bar stool, leave the church pew where the "Gospel of Greed" battles with that of humble love. Start a new life. Carrier is gone. Coal is gone. The canals are already built. Build tomorrow, don't mourn yesteryear. And watch Trump collapse your mildly insane dreams of quick fixes, easy remedies, and the miracle of cost-free "greatness". Like the old bar's "free lunch", there is no free anything and never was. Or will be. You had a chance to earn your future with help from Obama and Clinton. You took the easy way out? You wasted 1 vote and 4 years. OK, it's ok. As Leonard Cohen said, everything has cracks, but that's how the light leaks in. Walk toward the light, work, innovate, rebuild yourself. Move on.
6
So sad that these people don't understand that it is they and their neighbors who have driven their jobs to Mexico and it is they with Trump's help who will ultimately make their economics worse. It will be their neighbor that chooses the less expensive Korean air conditioner at the big box. Slap tariffs on the Korean unit to compete on price? Read how the auto industry left the US in the 80's when the Japanese beat us by building better cars and then when hit with limiting the cars they could sell in the US, made them better AND luxurious, thus spawning Lexus, Infinity and Accura.
Trade wars NEVER work and if Trump tries it, then expect global recession and then fewer jobs, and fewer people can buy air conditioners in the US. And the saddest thing is that it free market global capitalism that the Republican's have always stood for, has dislocated them, not those bad Democrats...and what they are really trying to have under Trump is a planned economy...YUP...that terrible "S" word they so hate...socialism.
Think they're angry now?
Trade wars NEVER work and if Trump tries it, then expect global recession and then fewer jobs, and fewer people can buy air conditioners in the US. And the saddest thing is that it free market global capitalism that the Republican's have always stood for, has dislocated them, not those bad Democrats...and what they are really trying to have under Trump is a planned economy...YUP...that terrible "S" word they so hate...socialism.
Think they're angry now?
4
Succeeding in a globalized planet requires life-long learning. I personally kept going to school and got two Associate's degrees and a Bachelor's degree in Information Technology and am currently working on a Master's degree in Cyber Security.
Even with all that education I am having a problem getting a job due to age and racial discrimination. Discrimination is rampant in IT and rather than face that problem IT companies prefer to import high-tech workers from India and China.
As such I will probably have to go overseas to work. Globalization also requires labor to be mobile, people have to go where the jobs are.
Mr Roell then votes against his interests for a racist demagogue who is NOT going to save his job. In fact he will find soon that his situation is going to get much worse.
Tell me why should I care again? Especially when people like Mr Roell won't get off their rears to educate themselves or move to where the jobs are to improve their job prospects?
Too bad Mr Roell did not vote Democratic, he probably would be facing a brighter future with government programs like welfare and job training. As it is now he might as well start dealing opiates.
All the Democrats had to do is stand up a GOOD candidate for President. Anybody else could have beaten Trump had the DNC not rigged the nominating process in favor of Queen Hillary.