Although these rankings are out of control, colleges do differ in quality and people deserve to get some sort of evaluation of them. No-one can read all the details about every college, so some form of ranking is useful to help narrow a focus. Perhaps it would be better to use categorical ranks instead of the absurd numerical ranking. Also, it would make more sense to evaluate colleges according to their type - it makes no sense to compare a highly tech/research oriented school like CalTech with liberal arts/teaching oriented Brown University, even if they are both of high quality. Then one could group them into categories such as elite, excellent, solid, mediocre. Or even group them by size as well, since that is a big determinant of the type of experience.
5
I was privileged to attend several selective educational institutions. I got to know some faculty well enough for them to talk frankly with me about the "secret" of their school's success. Without exception they said that the largest factor was simply the quality of the applicants they attracted and chose from, as opposed to anything that the institution actually did.
A self-fulfilling and self-perpetuating prophecy.
A self-fulfilling and self-perpetuating prophecy.
25
The good news here is that a focus on any of the rankings focusses on the trees rather than the forrest.If as we seem to believe ,education is the surest pathway to a better and more fulfilling life, then the best advice is simple;"go to the best school you can get into and afford".It is true that schools excel in certain majors, offer different experiences and are in diverse locations. But, if the ultimate goal is having the greatest number of options to pursue in life, then going with a "Brand" makes the most sense.Most of us are well aware of the brands and it really doesn't matter which one a senior picks.As Bruni points out, all rankings have flaws.Their overarching flaw is that they encourage over engineering of a decision.
1
As the co-author of 19 articles on the "Pitfalls" of measuring things--not against it, but there are many things that can go wrong in part because of prevailing myths--this is the best of many hundred articles I've read on measurement in many fields.
It shows why a critical questioning has to be brought to interpretation of nearly any measurement, complementary to that taught to undergrads in "The How to Lie With Statistics" realm.
Surprisingly, as it's so rare to ever see it, Eduarto Porter's "Richer But Not Better Off" column today on the economy also does this. Frank hits the problem as succinctly as I've ever seen describing the "fetishing (of) data." The "marination" point was brilliant. (Good job today, NYT.)
Life is not a football game, with a clearly defined, inarguable "score" at the end declaring who won. As we've now seen with concussions, toleration of child abuse by a legend, sexual favors for important recruits, even football is not a football game. It depends on the scoreboard you're using! It's not so clear who the 'winner" is and even what it means "to win."
So use data, but really question influential and possibly misleading myths of "objectivity,' "data speaks for itself," and "something doesn't exist unless you can measure it." Ask "what are we missing, and is that important?" Finally (well, not really), from time to time question the fundamental assumption: "Are the times demanding that we re-look at what we've always thought of as "success?"
It shows why a critical questioning has to be brought to interpretation of nearly any measurement, complementary to that taught to undergrads in "The How to Lie With Statistics" realm.
Surprisingly, as it's so rare to ever see it, Eduarto Porter's "Richer But Not Better Off" column today on the economy also does this. Frank hits the problem as succinctly as I've ever seen describing the "fetishing (of) data." The "marination" point was brilliant. (Good job today, NYT.)
Life is not a football game, with a clearly defined, inarguable "score" at the end declaring who won. As we've now seen with concussions, toleration of child abuse by a legend, sexual favors for important recruits, even football is not a football game. It depends on the scoreboard you're using! It's not so clear who the 'winner" is and even what it means "to win."
So use data, but really question influential and possibly misleading myths of "objectivity,' "data speaks for itself," and "something doesn't exist unless you can measure it." Ask "what are we missing, and is that important?" Finally (well, not really), from time to time question the fundamental assumption: "Are the times demanding that we re-look at what we've always thought of as "success?"
11
Every Autumn and Winter, I meet and chat with high school seniors who applied to my Alma Mater and requested a local interview. The admissions office gets the contact info to me and I hop to it. The school is in the top five of USNews rankings, so the kids are pretty bright and accomplished.
The applicants from public high schools typically regret that their guidance counselors don't have more time to spend with them regarding college choices.
In contrast, the applicants from private high schools despise the fact that their guidance counselors push them into applying to high-ranking colleges without regard to which ones might be the best fit for them.
The reason for the latter behavior becomes obvious later in the year when the private high schools publish full-page ads in the local newspapers that tout the "success" of their graduating students getting accepted at top competitive colleges and universities, which are listed with the names and photos of the graduates.
Sure, these ads celebrate the acceptance letters, but they also serve as bait to parents of middle-school students all the way from the swamp to the sea.
The message, "Send your kids here; they too will succeed just like these young people did."
Imagine, the marketing of the USNews rankings extends all the way down to private high school recruitment advertising directed at vulnerable parents of 13-year old children.
The applicants from public high schools typically regret that their guidance counselors don't have more time to spend with them regarding college choices.
In contrast, the applicants from private high schools despise the fact that their guidance counselors push them into applying to high-ranking colleges without regard to which ones might be the best fit for them.
The reason for the latter behavior becomes obvious later in the year when the private high schools publish full-page ads in the local newspapers that tout the "success" of their graduating students getting accepted at top competitive colleges and universities, which are listed with the names and photos of the graduates.
Sure, these ads celebrate the acceptance letters, but they also serve as bait to parents of middle-school students all the way from the swamp to the sea.
The message, "Send your kids here; they too will succeed just like these young people did."
Imagine, the marketing of the USNews rankings extends all the way down to private high school recruitment advertising directed at vulnerable parents of 13-year old children.
17
Frank:
Another article about higher education? I have a suggestion, you should start writing about restaurants, places we all go more often than institutions of higher education. Those reviews rank very good and lousy restaurants last I used some of the food apps available for hungry appetites. So why not universities? Oh, you don't like the ranking systems - so consider them imperfect and improve from there. Surely there have to be rankings since we live in a world of consumerism and its requisite marketing, not to mention the way (some) employers evaluate college graduates.
Now that I have hoisted the metaphor, the hungriest student (read: smartest, motivated, having earned consideration from the best schools) deserve consideration for admission to the best schools. Unfortunately those admission rates are becoming more asymptotic than meeting demand.
Let's apply efficient market theory (yes, more rankings!) to this theme and hope that universities perpetuate the best teaching, free speech and safe environments. "Self-congratulation" is simple to identify, as is an environment that prioritizes "the life of the mind" [U Chicago].
You could have saved yourself such a long article simply by writing, I do not believe in college rankings.
Where do you live and what are your favorite restaurants - and why?
Another article about higher education? I have a suggestion, you should start writing about restaurants, places we all go more often than institutions of higher education. Those reviews rank very good and lousy restaurants last I used some of the food apps available for hungry appetites. So why not universities? Oh, you don't like the ranking systems - so consider them imperfect and improve from there. Surely there have to be rankings since we live in a world of consumerism and its requisite marketing, not to mention the way (some) employers evaluate college graduates.
Now that I have hoisted the metaphor, the hungriest student (read: smartest, motivated, having earned consideration from the best schools) deserve consideration for admission to the best schools. Unfortunately those admission rates are becoming more asymptotic than meeting demand.
Let's apply efficient market theory (yes, more rankings!) to this theme and hope that universities perpetuate the best teaching, free speech and safe environments. "Self-congratulation" is simple to identify, as is an environment that prioritizes "the life of the mind" [U Chicago].
You could have saved yourself such a long article simply by writing, I do not believe in college rankings.
Where do you live and what are your favorite restaurants - and why?
1
The best way to make sense out of college rankings is don't look at them. The three most important things to look for are cost, programs and location. They correspond to affordability, field of study and place to live four years of life.
8
Fortunate he was builder from early onward. Lego master. then in the nerd in high school with a clear eye to the appropirate Engneering School. Accepted at a good, and the instiution and he were a great fit. He studied well, and is on a true first rung of a career ladder. He mirrors the artcile. Unto thy own self be ture, aka realize who you are. Chose a school, where persentent commited work to the goal will generate concrte results, and then meet the competitive real world. Cal Poly say it best, learn by doing. If you work it it works; it is yourself .
2
College rankings seem all over the map, self-interest quite prominent here, so to attract smart students to enhance or confirm their self-assessed success. If you choose the value of a college by its Sports team, you are likely leaning on the wrong tree; likewise, if one constricts a given 'avenue' by the amount of money that can be made afterwards, a reflection of a poor spirit. Going to College is, or can be, an excellent opportunity to find yourself, free of constraints, searching the truth, beauty, science and the arts, and poetry, able to be critical about the world and willing to contribute to what makes us human, social animals as we are, interested in each other, open to change as knowledge, and understanding, evolve, a secular education free of prejudices and make-believe systems not grounded in facts. You want to become a renaissance man/woman, with an open mind, and taking full advantage of today's technology...but not a slave of it; and valuing 'being' in preference to 'having', ready and willing to recognize when wrong, humble enough to see how little we know relative to a vast ocean yet undiscovered, willing to defend your principles...and those of the poor, the disenfranchised and all the one's without a voice. If you can find a College to help stimulate your mind, imagination and resolve, then you are a winner. The rest will come, as you harvest what you yourself sowed in the process.
The top criterion is how much a university in question has contributed to the world.
1
It really comes down to what do you as a student want from your education. There's more to that than your future career, although that is now much more critical than it was 40 years ago, as student debt is a far bigger albatross.
Still, a college or university must fit your personality and the BEST way to determine that is to meet students there and talk to them.
Then, of course, there's the quality of the school in terms of your potential interests. I'd guess, without data, that maybe 1 in 10 or 1 in 20 incoming freshman know EXACTLY what they want to do, and end up doing it. The rest need a cornucopia of options to explore.
Finally, at almost every university in the country, you will find superb instructors and dreadful ones. There will those that really love teaching and encouraging the young minds they meet, and those that couldn't care less and just go through the motions. And, at most schools, you'll be able to get the education you want. If you cannot, then transfer to a school that serves you better.
Still, a college or university must fit your personality and the BEST way to determine that is to meet students there and talk to them.
Then, of course, there's the quality of the school in terms of your potential interests. I'd guess, without data, that maybe 1 in 10 or 1 in 20 incoming freshman know EXACTLY what they want to do, and end up doing it. The rest need a cornucopia of options to explore.
Finally, at almost every university in the country, you will find superb instructors and dreadful ones. There will those that really love teaching and encouraging the young minds they meet, and those that couldn't care less and just go through the motions. And, at most schools, you'll be able to get the education you want. If you cannot, then transfer to a school that serves you better.
"At almost every university in the country, you will find superb instructors and dreadful ones." Correct!
But at almost every university, tenure-track instructors are recruited primarily on the basis of research ability and the prospects for future fame and fortune in research. The most prestigious universities supply these candidates to themselves and to "lesser" colleges. You can get an argument in any academic institution whether being a research super-star has any correlation with undergraduate teaching. There are ex-Teacher-of-the-Year winners who are denied tenure on the basis of research deficiencies.
Moral: Carefully examine the undergraduate teaching reputation of the prospective school.
But at almost every university, tenure-track instructors are recruited primarily on the basis of research ability and the prospects for future fame and fortune in research. The most prestigious universities supply these candidates to themselves and to "lesser" colleges. You can get an argument in any academic institution whether being a research super-star has any correlation with undergraduate teaching. There are ex-Teacher-of-the-Year winners who are denied tenure on the basis of research deficiencies.
Moral: Carefully examine the undergraduate teaching reputation of the prospective school.
2
One ranking that does provide some useful information: List of colleges by endowment size. Why does size matter? The more money available to the college through its endowment, the more merit or need-based money (and other resources) available to the student. One great example of how a billion dollars in endowment helps students: Alabama. It's #71 out of 828 and we've all heard how much they are discounting tuition for above-average students. That said, if you look at Linfield College's online scholarship calculator, they give some great merit aid as well and they are way down at #438.
Here's the link in case anyone is interested: http://www.nacubo.org/Documents/EndowmentFiles/2015_NCSE_Endowment_Marke...
Here's the link in case anyone is interested: http://www.nacubo.org/Documents/EndowmentFiles/2015_NCSE_Endowment_Marke...
5
Ratings, rankings, branding, and celebrity endorsements are just lazy mechanisms to replace knowledge, thinking and judgement. Unfortunately, they appeal to our default human nature, and are therefore used intentionally, and even cynically, by those trying to sell us something.
Higher education can matter a great deal, but HOW you experience it can have a greater impact on your life than WHERE you experience it. And yes, there is some correlation between certain "highly ranked" colleges and universities and their commitment to individual student experience. But that is no guaranty that a given institution will do that for you.
Higher education can matter a great deal, but HOW you experience it can have a greater impact on your life than WHERE you experience it. And yes, there is some correlation between certain "highly ranked" colleges and universities and their commitment to individual student experience. But that is no guaranty that a given institution will do that for you.
2
I do not claim that there is anything just about this, but based on my kids' experience, a diploma from a prestigious school gets u noticed in the job market. Is that "everthing" in life? No, but it helps.
11
It's not just about what you'll study and financial success. Don't forget that the college you pick determines your environment for the next four years. It is where you'll be transforming from a teen-ager to a nominal "grownup" and developing/evolving a wide range of personal and social understanding, values and opinions. It will determine your (possibly lifelong) friends, physical living quarters, broader environment (region of the country, weather, urban or rural). You may be one of hundreds of classmates, or thousands, or tens of thousands). What is importance of sports vs.studies. What is the background, diversity or uniformity of fellow-students, etc. Your college may turn out to be one of the key drives of what you are as a person when you're 30, 50, or 90.
3
Ah, the rankings. Which to believe, which to rely upon? As the parent of two juniors (one in high school, one in college), I have been in the thick of this for years.
The rankings don't take into account that feeling that a kid gets when being on a particular college campus. They don't tell you about the kind of kid who goes there, what it would take to be happy there, and whether it's worth the staggering debt some may take on in order to get a degree. And yes, like Mr. Bruni, on my many college visits, I, too, have seen schools "marinate in their own mythology, sending students all sorts of messages about what an extraordinary opportunity they’re enjoying."
I find "selectiveness" to be the most deceiving and least meaningful criterion; it speaks only to the ratio of number of students accepted to number of applicants. When a school is "hot," wins a championship, or gets a huge engineering grant, the applicant pool increases while the number of seats in the freshman class remains exactly the same.
I was convinced my older child would attend a small, private, liberal arts school that I could not afford. On her own, she chose a mid-sized SUNY school (the premier public school of the east) where she's immersed herself in campus life, joined a sorority, gotten a terrific internship, and is doing well academically. Bonus: it's not AS appallingly expensive as other schools she got into. The magic is in the chemistry between the student and the school; rankings be damned.
The rankings don't take into account that feeling that a kid gets when being on a particular college campus. They don't tell you about the kind of kid who goes there, what it would take to be happy there, and whether it's worth the staggering debt some may take on in order to get a degree. And yes, like Mr. Bruni, on my many college visits, I, too, have seen schools "marinate in their own mythology, sending students all sorts of messages about what an extraordinary opportunity they’re enjoying."
I find "selectiveness" to be the most deceiving and least meaningful criterion; it speaks only to the ratio of number of students accepted to number of applicants. When a school is "hot," wins a championship, or gets a huge engineering grant, the applicant pool increases while the number of seats in the freshman class remains exactly the same.
I was convinced my older child would attend a small, private, liberal arts school that I could not afford. On her own, she chose a mid-sized SUNY school (the premier public school of the east) where she's immersed herself in campus life, joined a sorority, gotten a terrific internship, and is doing well academically. Bonus: it's not AS appallingly expensive as other schools she got into. The magic is in the chemistry between the student and the school; rankings be damned.
7
Arguably, the two most important decisions one makes in their life is whom to marry and where to go to college. The former can be changed and amended, the latter is fixed and unshakable, for better or worse. As far as rankings go, the most telling statistic is a simple one: the colleges acceptance rate. If you stick with this simple metric, you will find the most sane ranking system. Of course there are flaws in this scheme ( i.e curtis school of music, olin college of engineering)but it generally is the most accurate.
OPEN INQUIRY -- THE KEY?
Judging from my experience at Georgetown University, and Louvain and Ghent in Belgium, open inquiry was the key to the best years in my education. Louvain had it, the other two did not, though at Georgetown it was as much the fault of the students, their narrow interest in success, as the University. At that time Louvain encouraged Marxist Professors, alongside econometricians, Heidiggerians alongside neo-Platonists, Freudians alongside, Lacan and Skinner. In economics at least, any semblance of openness went out of US Universities in the 1960's as part of a purge of leftists.
My son started VCU this year. I have several observations. Without an educated parent to help the process is nearly impossible to navigate. Scholarships are much less available than is advertised. Affirmative action, my son is mixed race as most American blacks, hardly exists contrary to popular belief and discrimination still plays a role at some but fortunately not all institutions.
Areas where I would have appreciated more information are class size at the institutions and what is the impact on learning of being in classes of 200 rather than 20? What is the value of a core curriculum rather than a wide ranging choice of classes? How much does the lack of a sports program -- unfortunately not very common -- improve learning at an institution? You have taken on a many headed hydra, though one which needs to be mastered. Good luck.
Judging from my experience at Georgetown University, and Louvain and Ghent in Belgium, open inquiry was the key to the best years in my education. Louvain had it, the other two did not, though at Georgetown it was as much the fault of the students, their narrow interest in success, as the University. At that time Louvain encouraged Marxist Professors, alongside econometricians, Heidiggerians alongside neo-Platonists, Freudians alongside, Lacan and Skinner. In economics at least, any semblance of openness went out of US Universities in the 1960's as part of a purge of leftists.
My son started VCU this year. I have several observations. Without an educated parent to help the process is nearly impossible to navigate. Scholarships are much less available than is advertised. Affirmative action, my son is mixed race as most American blacks, hardly exists contrary to popular belief and discrimination still plays a role at some but fortunately not all institutions.
Areas where I would have appreciated more information are class size at the institutions and what is the impact on learning of being in classes of 200 rather than 20? What is the value of a core curriculum rather than a wide ranging choice of classes? How much does the lack of a sports program -- unfortunately not very common -- improve learning at an institution? You have taken on a many headed hydra, though one which needs to be mastered. Good luck.
8
I don't think rankings are a bad thing in themselves, as a starting point. The thing is not to look at them to make a decision. It is a big investment, do your homework. Could a highly ranked school be more affordable because of the excellent financial aid? How strong are the programs you want in the range of schools you are looking at? Does the school have some other programs you might want if you change majors? What is your access to professors and research as an undergrad? Quality of instruction is important, but so is the career center and placement into grad school or professional schools. And the element of personal fit comes into the picture.
2
The crime of these school rankings is that they steal the love of learning from children starting their sophomore year in high school. The high anxiety of choosing the 'right school' in unnecessary. Students are now more concerned about putting together the right portfolio for college than enjoying their high school experience.
7
COLLEGE RANKINGS Put pressure on adolescents that are already going through what, for many, is the most stressful period in their lives. On top of developmental changes as well as mental and physical changes, high school students are required to take courses of little interest or use to them later in life. For example, many will never study a foreign language, science, math or history again. Yes there will be some broad requirements in undergrad work that will focus on those areas, but in graduate work, less and less. There is more focus on interdisciplinary majors, such as biology and nano material engineering. I think it's more important for kids to focus more on graduate rather than undergraduate work, if they're serious about their studies. In many areas, either doctorates or masters degrees are absolute requirements. Of course it's prestigious to go to an Ivy League or other top school. A bachelor's degree from any of those schools is always of benefit in getting a job. Also, gifted kids can study advanced material online, free of charge, at places like the Khan Academy to move ahead in AP high school classes and at sites like Coursera to see what it's actually like to take a college course, write papers and prepare for tests. Since auditing any of the courses is free, the price is right. A huge challenge is for kids to find time for such exploration. Programs for young gifted kids can help them gain access to and support for moving along at their own pace.
The habit of ranking colleges is a highly flawed system that allows colleges to tweak its shortcomings in minor categories to move higher up the list. It is a zero-sum game, in which for one school to move up, another must move down. This is a poor indicator of what is out there as there are sets of colleges that are within the same scoring. What makes one better than another is purely in the eyes of the beholder.
As many high schools have done in removing class rank and replacing it with the Latin Honors system, these publications would do a better service to the colleges and students by placing colleges in larger categories, without specifically stating an order within. While one student might think Princeton is the finest college in the land, they can get an equal and better suited education at Rice University. Currently, they are about fifteen places apart, but a degree from each is certainly not weighed any differently to graduate schools or employers. Each student gets an excellent education, but the form of the curriculum at each school is different, as is the atmosphere. In looking at the list, it would seem that if a school got above a certain final score, they should be placed in a Magna Cum Laude category- one in which there could be no specific number of colleges, just a range of scores. Other categories could follow, but none showing that one in a category is specifically better than another. That is up to the student to decide.
As many high schools have done in removing class rank and replacing it with the Latin Honors system, these publications would do a better service to the colleges and students by placing colleges in larger categories, without specifically stating an order within. While one student might think Princeton is the finest college in the land, they can get an equal and better suited education at Rice University. Currently, they are about fifteen places apart, but a degree from each is certainly not weighed any differently to graduate schools or employers. Each student gets an excellent education, but the form of the curriculum at each school is different, as is the atmosphere. In looking at the list, it would seem that if a school got above a certain final score, they should be placed in a Magna Cum Laude category- one in which there could be no specific number of colleges, just a range of scores. Other categories could follow, but none showing that one in a category is specifically better than another. That is up to the student to decide.
1
As the parent of a high school senior who is academically gifted, is a leader in her school and service projects and has played several sports, it never occured to me, my wife or daughter to look at school rankings. Just nonsense. Go where there is a good fit. Stop the nonsense of trying to rank everything. Simple. Done.
4
Considering the cost of college, students might do well to consider where they will come out with the least amount of debt....and, indeed, they will get a good education most anywhere if they are willing to put in a serious effort.
3
The last few paragraphs are the most meaningful - ratings are one measurement, however, they are also irrelevant. Colleges are 'over rated'.
As you and Ms. Napolitano point out so well, like anything in life, the most important ranking is your own personal evaluation of it vs. the alternatives. Numbers can easily skew and even suppress good judgment.
Take the equally important matter of selecting a wine for a special dinner occasion. You could rely on Wine Spectator's or Robert Parker's 100 point scoring system and wind up with a bottle doesn't match the meal, doesn't suit your palate, is too young or well past its prime, and / or leaves you guilty about the amount of money you paid for it.
And so it is with college rankings and selection.
Take the equally important matter of selecting a wine for a special dinner occasion. You could rely on Wine Spectator's or Robert Parker's 100 point scoring system and wind up with a bottle doesn't match the meal, doesn't suit your palate, is too young or well past its prime, and / or leaves you guilty about the amount of money you paid for it.
And so it is with college rankings and selection.
2
Check out "Colleges that Change Lives." These colleges don't appear at the top of the rankings, yet deliver an extraordinary education.
8
I'm in the process of looking at colleges for my son and have found using the filter on College Board's website to be most helpful.
For instance, he is very smart but has ADHD and needs accommodations He wants to major in design. We need a public school to save money....there are only 8 colleges in all of Calf. that match these criteria and 6 of them are in southern CA.
For instance, he is very smart but has ADHD and needs accommodations He wants to major in design. We need a public school to save money....there are only 8 colleges in all of Calf. that match these criteria and 6 of them are in southern CA.
2
The greatest impact of the rankings system is that they have a way of justifying the ever increasing and obscenely high cost of attending college. The top ranked colleges then raise their prices, and the lower ranked schools follow suit.
5
both my children graduated from prep school in San Francisco. they both went to Canada for university. my son went to McGill Univ. in Montreal and my daughter to Univ. of British Columbia in Vancouver. best choice for them to avoid all this nonsense about ranking, just good schools. Period.
8
College reminds are all meaningless because the quality of a college education is even more multidimensional than intelligence. Between the variability in departments at a school, the vast differences in what students seek from a school and the huge variation in quality from one class or prof to another, any consolidated ranking is simply misleading.
US News also ranks US cities. Currently its top three are Denver, Austin and Fayetteville, Arkansas. All fine places but would you really do almost anything to move there? No? Then why kill yourself to get into Princeton?
2
The problem with all these rankings is that they shoehorn all schools into a rigid hierarchy. Because schools are so different in academic demands, culture, and method, this is a ridiculous over-simplification.
At the top, how can compare Harvard and Cambridge? Harvard offers a liberal arts education with great freedom of choice, whereas Cambridge's students start with a specialization and stay in it. In terms of method, Harvard has massive survey courses and a few smaller seminars, but contact with profs can be very hard to come by; Cambridge works by tutorial, with intimate contact with profs, who discuss weekly papers. The differences are legion and their appropriateness depends on the needs and gifts of the individual student.
What this means is that applicants have to do the hard work of investigating and, if possible, visiting prospective colleges. You have to cut through their propaganda, and the best way to do that is figure out a way to talk to students and perhaps even a prof.
I do not mean to imply that the rankings are entirely useless. They are only the crudest starting point in a long process. But they do get too much attention.
At the top, how can compare Harvard and Cambridge? Harvard offers a liberal arts education with great freedom of choice, whereas Cambridge's students start with a specialization and stay in it. In terms of method, Harvard has massive survey courses and a few smaller seminars, but contact with profs can be very hard to come by; Cambridge works by tutorial, with intimate contact with profs, who discuss weekly papers. The differences are legion and their appropriateness depends on the needs and gifts of the individual student.
What this means is that applicants have to do the hard work of investigating and, if possible, visiting prospective colleges. You have to cut through their propaganda, and the best way to do that is figure out a way to talk to students and perhaps even a prof.
I do not mean to imply that the rankings are entirely useless. They are only the crudest starting point in a long process. But they do get too much attention.
Just how important is ranking.
I say it depends on the person and what that person is majoring in.
I would think you can get a great education in the liberal arts at any school if the instructor is a great one and the student is both intelligent, dedicated and most important talented.
That instructor could be working for Harvard or for Brooklyn Collage.
Harvard pays more and is very prestigious so it is probable they would have better people based on their resume but may not be in the class room.
Science is very different.
Even the best instructor in a school that doesn't have the research facilities should be avoided
So if you want to be a doctor or a mathematician for example ranking is very important.
If you want to be a actor or a writer or a lawyer ranking is not that important.
.
I say it depends on the person and what that person is majoring in.
I would think you can get a great education in the liberal arts at any school if the instructor is a great one and the student is both intelligent, dedicated and most important talented.
That instructor could be working for Harvard or for Brooklyn Collage.
Harvard pays more and is very prestigious so it is probable they would have better people based on their resume but may not be in the class room.
Science is very different.
Even the best instructor in a school that doesn't have the research facilities should be avoided
So if you want to be a doctor or a mathematician for example ranking is very important.
If you want to be a actor or a writer or a lawyer ranking is not that important.
.
It is interesting to value colleges from the various views. It is small matter for me that how excellent academic records they had at high school and how much money graduates earn. It is important for me that students are satisfied with lectures and their campus life.
as a professor in a top-rated STEM department at a major research university, I and my colleagues always thought that the rating system was at best, wildly inaccurate, and at worst, rigged. This is to be expected in a system where student evaluations are supposedly used to improve teaching performance but are actually mostly used as a tool for getting rid of professors who for one reason or another (e.g. not having enough research funding or not doing research in a desired field) do not satisfy the department or its administration.
2
There is very little talk of cost in this article and it is definitely a major factor for my family. After understanding our EFC and running our numbers through the net price calculators, we find a huge cost difference (between 50 and 120k) between in state and out of state universities and private institutions. We have been analyzing this for years. I know there are a lot of people who are able to look at universities all over the US, but we would rather spend less on the undergrad, save for a master's at a more prestigious university, and have my daughter finish with no debt.
3
Diversity in colleges means cherry-picking the most successful minority students and putting them into communities where they can be successful.
When Charter Schools do the same thing, the NAACP calls it "segregation."
If you want to know why people attend higher ranks schools, it is because they offer greater opportunities for employment and earning potential.
The entire educational system is corrupt, and it will continue to worsen until wealthy colleges like Harvard are forced to give their endowment to other schools!
When Charter Schools do the same thing, the NAACP calls it "segregation."
If you want to know why people attend higher ranks schools, it is because they offer greater opportunities for employment and earning potential.
The entire educational system is corrupt, and it will continue to worsen until wealthy colleges like Harvard are forced to give their endowment to other schools!
1
Useful resource.
Consumer reports is usually quite useless. The models of refrigerators, that they measure, for example, are rarely available. And in buying any consumer item, or even a home, we want one feature from one model and another feature from another. Measures and comparisons of all things is complicated, as are those of colleges. And then colleges themselves cannot find useful ways of measuring learning in its classes -- just look at course evaluations and how they are handled.
So what is a prospective student to do? As Bruni mentions, there are some useful numbers to look at -- student/faculty ratio (of tenure track faculty teaching all level of courses), size of classes, how many classes each faculty teaches (if they teach too many they cannot teach well), preparation of incoming students (scores on things like SATs and high school grades/standing are the only way we have now of measuring this) -- accepting that students learn from and are influenced largely by their peers, graduation rates, availability of appropriate courses (do you want to study Arabic? -- find a place that teaches it), diversity -- learning to live in a cosmopolitan world, and even reputation (try to get iinvited for a job interview after attending an unheard-of school).
We can hope (and work) for more or better information. But these are the sorts of things we have. Do we have more reliable information for our presidential candidates, our doctors and hospitals, or even our refrigerators?
So what is a prospective student to do? As Bruni mentions, there are some useful numbers to look at -- student/faculty ratio (of tenure track faculty teaching all level of courses), size of classes, how many classes each faculty teaches (if they teach too many they cannot teach well), preparation of incoming students (scores on things like SATs and high school grades/standing are the only way we have now of measuring this) -- accepting that students learn from and are influenced largely by their peers, graduation rates, availability of appropriate courses (do you want to study Arabic? -- find a place that teaches it), diversity -- learning to live in a cosmopolitan world, and even reputation (try to get iinvited for a job interview after attending an unheard-of school).
We can hope (and work) for more or better information. But these are the sorts of things we have. Do we have more reliable information for our presidential candidates, our doctors and hospitals, or even our refrigerators?
1
In spite of all the ifs, ands, or buts identified in this article, there is little doubt that big differences in performance exist between schools, the question is how to measure it. Does it matter to me as a student whether I'm taking an advanced calculus class at my local community college or at Cal Tech? Will the outcome both be the same in terms of my mastering this subject? Will an "A" grade mean the same at both schools?
I'm actually able to answer this from personal experience: I took a semester break from the elite liberal college I was attending, and decided to take a couple of 'fun' courses at a local community college, among them the beginning German. After this initial semester I returned back to my liberal arts college and continued with German. I went into the second semester course, only to find the class was twice as far along as the students at the community college. I could make a direct comparison because by chance both schools used the same textbook: the community college had gotten through five of the total of ten chapters in the first semester, while my liberal arts college had already completed the textbook in the first semester and was beginning a more advanced text for the second semester.
Why the difference? In admissions terms it was the student "cohort": the student performance expectations were vastly different between the two schools. The professor at the liberal arts school could demand-and expect-much more from his students.
I'm actually able to answer this from personal experience: I took a semester break from the elite liberal college I was attending, and decided to take a couple of 'fun' courses at a local community college, among them the beginning German. After this initial semester I returned back to my liberal arts college and continued with German. I went into the second semester course, only to find the class was twice as far along as the students at the community college. I could make a direct comparison because by chance both schools used the same textbook: the community college had gotten through five of the total of ten chapters in the first semester, while my liberal arts college had already completed the textbook in the first semester and was beginning a more advanced text for the second semester.
Why the difference? In admissions terms it was the student "cohort": the student performance expectations were vastly different between the two schools. The professor at the liberal arts school could demand-and expect-much more from his students.
3
Funny line by Bruni. "“You get out of it what you put into it,” she said. I guess the same does apply to a refrigerator, but only if you’re talking about condiments.
The various college rankings provide helpful information for families by allowing students to focus on what is important to them (e.g. earnings, diversity, etc.) When my daughter was looking at schools several years ago, too often I heard from her friends that they preferred a given school for arbitrary reasons - like the look of the campus or the friendliness of the tour guide.
However, it's worth considering the contrast between the epitome of consumer choice in colleges compared to the rigid and often failing system of public education. Bruni talks about the differences in earnings potential based on school - but the biggest factor is simply whether you get a degree at all. See link.
http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm
Over 29% of poor children do not even graduate high school. According to the NAEP, fewer than 40% of high school seniors are college ready. Per the Department of Education, over 1700 high schools in this country graduate fewer than 60% of their students. (Remind me again why we allow students to drop out at 16 ?) The key point is that most of these families have no choice but to send their children to these dropout factories. Maybe the value of choice is what we should learn from the college application process ? Why have we heard so little from either candidate on education ?
The various college rankings provide helpful information for families by allowing students to focus on what is important to them (e.g. earnings, diversity, etc.) When my daughter was looking at schools several years ago, too often I heard from her friends that they preferred a given school for arbitrary reasons - like the look of the campus or the friendliness of the tour guide.
However, it's worth considering the contrast between the epitome of consumer choice in colleges compared to the rigid and often failing system of public education. Bruni talks about the differences in earnings potential based on school - but the biggest factor is simply whether you get a degree at all. See link.
http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm
Over 29% of poor children do not even graduate high school. According to the NAEP, fewer than 40% of high school seniors are college ready. Per the Department of Education, over 1700 high schools in this country graduate fewer than 60% of their students. (Remind me again why we allow students to drop out at 16 ?) The key point is that most of these families have no choice but to send their children to these dropout factories. Maybe the value of choice is what we should learn from the college application process ? Why have we heard so little from either candidate on education ?
1
~
Sadly at the end of the day, all that really counts is NOT the quality and value of your education nor the harder and more work and time that you put in to it at a "lesser" college but the name on the degree. The people with Ivy League on their degrees have their resumes immediately moved to a potential pile and the rest generally get tossed into the ether. This questionable lot is over compensated for their degrees the rest of their lives in a fraud that never sees an indictment
Do you think that Daddy Bush sent W to the Ivy League because he hoped W would solve the problem of string theory or come up with some new economic or political theory? Or did Daddy Bush just know the value of the name on the degree. I suspect the latter.
These Ivy Leaguers are always quick to let you know where they went to college. Others are intimated by these band of snobs with soft hands but not the Titan. The Titan grew up with a bunch of Italian rough necks and was sent to State to learn History and Engineering and like a monk on a hill in Italy taught himself philosophy. The Titan has seen the thing-in-itself (the unconditioned). Therefore, the Titan looks forward to battles with this spoiled lot humans.
"I can out-learn you. I can out-read you. I can out-think you. And I can out-philosophize you".
Max Cady
And yes:
“Pure intelligence is thus a product of dying, or at least of becoming mentally insensitive, and therefore in principle is madness.”
Sándor Ferenczi
Sadly at the end of the day, all that really counts is NOT the quality and value of your education nor the harder and more work and time that you put in to it at a "lesser" college but the name on the degree. The people with Ivy League on their degrees have their resumes immediately moved to a potential pile and the rest generally get tossed into the ether. This questionable lot is over compensated for their degrees the rest of their lives in a fraud that never sees an indictment
Do you think that Daddy Bush sent W to the Ivy League because he hoped W would solve the problem of string theory or come up with some new economic or political theory? Or did Daddy Bush just know the value of the name on the degree. I suspect the latter.
These Ivy Leaguers are always quick to let you know where they went to college. Others are intimated by these band of snobs with soft hands but not the Titan. The Titan grew up with a bunch of Italian rough necks and was sent to State to learn History and Engineering and like a monk on a hill in Italy taught himself philosophy. The Titan has seen the thing-in-itself (the unconditioned). Therefore, the Titan looks forward to battles with this spoiled lot humans.
"I can out-learn you. I can out-read you. I can out-think you. And I can out-philosophize you".
Max Cady
And yes:
“Pure intelligence is thus a product of dying, or at least of becoming mentally insensitive, and therefore in principle is madness.”
Sándor Ferenczi
1
My four year old daughter wants to go to Yale because
New Haven has great pizza. She also sits for an hour
in front of an aisle painting landscapes and is fascinated
with Physics. My view is she'll figure it out without relying
on rankings.
New Haven has great pizza. She also sits for an hour
in front of an aisle painting landscapes and is fascinated
with Physics. My view is she'll figure it out without relying
on rankings.
well, rankings like usnwr are most useful to lower income/ lower social status students and their families. Any Ivy educated family living on the Upper East Side knows where Harvard, Cornell, Colgate, Bard, SUNY Albany, and Lehman stand relative to one another. A smart but poor kid in Brooklyn with a shot at all five of these schools might well not have this kind of perspective. And yes,it does matter. When I went to Tuck School of Business, only 2% of students came from lower tier schools (and I am maybe the only high school dropout with a mail order degree ever to attend Tuck). All the rest? HYP, Stanford, Middlebury, etc.
1
My son said it best, when I was obsessing about his grades and pushing him to at least try on extracurricular activity (he already plays in the school's jazz band) - "Mom, relax. There will be a school out there that will take me."
6
Look at a school's NSSE rankings. Those are a measure of the school's rigor, and are very revealing in terms of how much a school actually cares about learning. My son went to a state school ranked in the top 25 and his courses were mostly a joke. For instance, He took a 100 level econ course that had 1000 students and required no writing. He then went to a liberal arts college ranked about 70th in the surveys. He took a 100 level econ class there with 30 students that required four papers, one of which was twenty pages. But alas, the football team is not that good.
5
“I will repeat the following until I am hoarse: it is contagion that determines the fate of a theory in social science, not its validity.”
― Nassim Nicholas Taleb
Replace "theory" with "college ranking" in Taleb's quote.
Consider one unscientific factoid: Gates is a Havard dropout, only an infinitesimally small number of Havard graduates ever achieve anything even remotely approaching Gates.
― Nassim Nicholas Taleb
Replace "theory" with "college ranking" in Taleb's quote.
Consider one unscientific factoid: Gates is a Havard dropout, only an infinitesimally small number of Havard graduates ever achieve anything even remotely approaching Gates.
Why don't we start by teaching people how to use a "control chart." For goodness sake, W. E. Deming was a consultant to the New York Times!
Google it. Put the data in random order and use a IndX/Mr chart. The distinction between schools on a particular metric that fall within the Upper and Lower Control Limits is basically unremarkable.
Google it. Put the data in random order and use a IndX/Mr chart. The distinction between schools on a particular metric that fall within the Upper and Lower Control Limits is basically unremarkable.
Mr. Bruni, one thing your column did not mention is the way in which rankings are used to sell issues of magazines or journals like US News and World Report. These publications take publicly available data or require universities to supply detailed data (which universities contort themselves to provide lest they are left "unranked"), crunch the data into some type of ranking, and then sell it back to the public. Prospective students and parents are well advised to view these statistics directly from university websites and IPeds rather than paying for them to be regurgitated in the form of these rankings.
4
If it weren't for this college ratings scam, would there even be a U.S. News & World Report? It used to be a magazine. I haven't seen one in twenty years, but I've heard of their college ratings scheme. Apparently, college ratings are their only bit of "U.S News." What do they do for the "World Report?"
4
How about a ranking which shows the number of entitled by birth, though most likely not academically worthy offspring of well heeled alums are accepted. And what these 1%ers give in order to get their children accepted.
Now this would be a real eye opener.
Now this would be a real eye opener.
6
The biggest scandal of all is on the other end of the food chain: employers and grad schools herd to recruit graduates of better-ranked schools merely to highlight their own exclusivity. The prestige of hiring a grad with a Harvard or Yale pedigree is considerable.
My experience as a graduate of Fordham Law School was as follows: our placement office provided us with a directory of law firms, each page having a description of each firm, and in the upper right hand corner was a simple chart. It showed which applicants could receive a screening interview, based on school and class rank. A typically selective local law firm might grant screening interviews only to applicants from the top 50% at Columbia Law, the top third at NYU, the top 10% from Fordham, and perhaps the valedictorian from New York Law or Cardozo (they would occasionally include Saint John's). It was a cruel lesson for the overwhelming majority of our class.
This is why the college ranking system takes on such an unfair and outsize significance to incoming students.
My year, incoming test scores and GPAs at Fordham were nearly identical to those of NYU students; the overwhelming majority of Fordham students were statistically indistinguishable from the overwhelming majority of NYU students. Yet, most wouldn't even be evaluated for a screening interview.
30 years later, these same law firms proudly boast senior partners coming from only the very top-tier law schools.
My experience as a graduate of Fordham Law School was as follows: our placement office provided us with a directory of law firms, each page having a description of each firm, and in the upper right hand corner was a simple chart. It showed which applicants could receive a screening interview, based on school and class rank. A typically selective local law firm might grant screening interviews only to applicants from the top 50% at Columbia Law, the top third at NYU, the top 10% from Fordham, and perhaps the valedictorian from New York Law or Cardozo (they would occasionally include Saint John's). It was a cruel lesson for the overwhelming majority of our class.
This is why the college ranking system takes on such an unfair and outsize significance to incoming students.
My year, incoming test scores and GPAs at Fordham were nearly identical to those of NYU students; the overwhelming majority of Fordham students were statistically indistinguishable from the overwhelming majority of NYU students. Yet, most wouldn't even be evaluated for a screening interview.
30 years later, these same law firms proudly boast senior partners coming from only the very top-tier law schools.
6
Having gone through all this with our son, I found the ranking systems of little use.The main issue is their choice of criteria that may not matter to the student, like the percentage of graduates who give money, the percent who attend after being admitted, and even things like diversity which some students may not value. It would be much more useful if these systems worked like dating sites that allow users to set their own criteria.
As an independent educational consultant, I find the most challenging part of working with families is convincing them that a "good college" is one that is a match to their student--not the one that's most selective or a brand name college. Rankings have little in any value to me as a consultant. There are few resources that actually give honest, useful and accurate information about any given college! These are the resources I try to provide to my clients and students. And I always tell students to talk to the current students on a campus! They're the ones that will tell it like it is!
2
I have suggested to Bob Morse, creator of the US News lists, that he give people the tools to create their own lists with all the data sets available, from that collected by all the list makers and from the federal government. As a counselor for 35 years, I have found that those students most satisfied with their education valued student engagement most. If you look at the WSJ list, for instance, the school ranked number one in this is Dordt College, a Christian College in Iowa ranked number 413 over all. Only two schools in the top 10 for student engagement, Swarthmore (34) and Michigan State (63) are in the top 100 in the overall rankings.
2
Academic programs are fairly equivalent at most accredited colleges and state universities; student motivation is the most important factor in success. College rankings are mostly political, with "elite" colleges forming the US caste system, designed to maintain wealth in families. As in "how much money their graduates go on to make". And will later add to their college endowment.
2
My wife and I both taught in higher education for over 30 years and were graduates of major universities. So this is from experience:
One drawback of a "big name" university is that undergraduates may not see the actual professor in a classroom. So many of the major universities let the graduate students teach all basic courses. Hence the high tuition dollars gets the student a teacher who an amateur on a stipend with the primary concern of pursuing their own degree.
Our advice to undergraduate students is to go to a teaching university-- one where the full time faculty has as a primary duty to actually teach. Go to the research university for graduate school.
Jt
One drawback of a "big name" university is that undergraduates may not see the actual professor in a classroom. So many of the major universities let the graduate students teach all basic courses. Hence the high tuition dollars gets the student a teacher who an amateur on a stipend with the primary concern of pursuing their own degree.
Our advice to undergraduate students is to go to a teaching university-- one where the full time faculty has as a primary duty to actually teach. Go to the research university for graduate school.
Jt
19
Excellent advice!
1
I am a retired college professor who had tenure at a major mid-western university, and who also taught at highly ranked universities in New York and California. In my opinion, by far the most important factor in selecting a college is the quality of the instruction at that institution - not only must the instructors be flexible, understanding, and adaptable to students with different backgrounds and skills, they also must be willing and eager to try innovative teaching methods, and just as importantly they must understand that teaching students how to learn on their own is an extremely valuable life and work skill. Many of the factors mentioned in this article are "nice to have" but are secondary to the quality of instruction.
10
The "Innovative teaching methods" imply student guinea pigs. By the time the bugs are worked out of those methods, they are no longer innovative.
1
While waiting for my daughter to finish her interview at the College of Wooster, I picked up a book in the waiting room -- Colleges that Change Lives. I wanted to go to most of those schools. My daughter, who had other priorities at the time, ended up at one because it was en route to another school. It did, in fact, change her life in ways unrelated to income. It made her experience wider than it might have been. The purpose of an education is to take an empty mind and turn it into an open one.
7
Two boys, both ended up in small California schools. We did use the rankings, but barely; the thick books of college profiles and student observations were much more helpful. We looked at class sizes, graduation rates, economic and cultural diversity among students and faculty (our kids are "mixed race"), and depth in the departments they were interested in. And we visited. It's a lot of work under way too much pressure, but so far so good for our guys, anyway! And, last but not least, your columns brought a good sense of perspective to the process. Frank, thanks for your interest in this area! (PS-- Love the refrigerator quip. Perfect.)
4
Students and their parents are faced with an important, complicated and potentially life changing choice of college based on flawed information that is subject to all the limitations described in these comments, and more.
To make matters even worse, most students don’t yet have a clear set of goals for college and beyond, and if they do, those goals are likely to change as the student is exposed to education and life experience. Both of my children abandoned their first choice college within two years for another that better met their evolving needs. It worked out well for both of them.
It is a credit to our students and our colleges that such a difficult choice so often turns out well. Rankings and the information they are based on should be evaluated from the perspective of the student facing uncertainty. The information is imperfect, but can a student who understands the imperfections still use the information to make a choice that is even a little better than without it?
To make matters even worse, most students don’t yet have a clear set of goals for college and beyond, and if they do, those goals are likely to change as the student is exposed to education and life experience. Both of my children abandoned their first choice college within two years for another that better met their evolving needs. It worked out well for both of them.
It is a credit to our students and our colleges that such a difficult choice so often turns out well. Rankings and the information they are based on should be evaluated from the perspective of the student facing uncertainty. The information is imperfect, but can a student who understands the imperfections still use the information to make a choice that is even a little better than without it?
1
I have now gone through the college application process with 3 kids (2 in college and 1 heading there next fall). We live in a highly-educated area where both the kids and their parents knowingly and unknowingly perpetuate the myth of what makes a "good school." All 3 of mine at some point have fallen prey to this frenetic and often detrimental environment. Luckily, we (their parents) still had some influence over their decisions (which a lot of parents seem to have relinquished these days). We found that the best schools are those where the faculty and staff are well led so that they can lead well. This is easier at smaller schools but we have seen it at big schools, too. So many colleges and universities seem to be constantly readjusting focus to improve their rankings; no good growth can come from all of this redirection.
7
As a college counselor who has worked on "both sides of the desk" for 35 years, this article is absolutely a must read. Thank you, Frank, for making sense of what many put way too much emphasis on. Finding the right fit is key, be it the local community college, a small private liberal arts institution, or a member of the Ivy League, a student will thrive where they find their own personal academic home. The journey they travel is their own, not one prescribed by a so called ranking with varying definitions.
9
I work for one of those top-ranked universities. All I see that it does is make education more expensive. To stay in that league you have to have what is considered the highest, academically ranked professors, which is mostly related to their research. And the top ranking schools fight over securing these faculty, resulting in higher salaries which creates higher operating costs and translates into higher tuition. But does it result in better teaching? I don't think so, and that is what it essential for effective, undergraduate education.
15
Currently being a senior in high school applying to colleges, I have learned to pay little attention to college rankings. I do agree though that if you are looking for a distinct area of value in a college such as the percentage of students on pell grants, rankings can be of help. However, one cannot truly know the character and content of a college until they have visited the campus, spent time with students, met proffessors, attended classes, and researched alumni. I have met many people who have gone to Ivy League schools, and attained success, but I have met just as many people that have went to schools listed far lower in the majority of college rankings who have attained just as much if not more success in their respective fields. A college education in the end is what you make of it.
5
Many years ago, a friend had a mediocre secondary school record and her parents were projecting her for cosmetology school. A high school counselor, realizing that she needed personal attention that she wasn't getting, suggested Doane College in Crete, Nebraska, a small under 1,000 student school where she would personally know all the faculty and students. A few years ago she retired with two master's degrees from major state universities and a successful career as a school administrator. What mattered for her was picking an initial college that would provide the support she needed to succeed. It is the matching of schools to the student's needs that generates success, not the "big data" rankings spit out by some algorithm. I don't care if my grandchildren go to Stanford or Wellesley or the local community college; but I do care that they get the support they need to become successful.
32
Parents, students and counselors substitute these lame rating systems for real thought about educational needs. Students succeed best where they are happiest. There are a thousand fine schools where students are proven to succeed. Big, small, urban, rural--the variety is enormous. Some work and some thought will yield the right learning environment for any student. But if families get fixated on some kind of trophy admission, no one is well served.
6
" I’ve noticed that the ones with the loftiest reputations sometimes marinate in their own mythology, sending students all sorts of messages about what an extraordinary opportunity they’re enjoying. "
To me this statement is pure nonsense. I went to an Ivy League school and never once did the administration suggest or imply that I was lucky to be given such a great opportunity. Bruni doesn't seem to like the prestigious colleges and implies that they don't deserve their standing but, while anyone can do well almost anywhere, you are generally better off at the colleges rated high than at those rated low. It's not "mythology".
To me this statement is pure nonsense. I went to an Ivy League school and never once did the administration suggest or imply that I was lucky to be given such a great opportunity. Bruni doesn't seem to like the prestigious colleges and implies that they don't deserve their standing but, while anyone can do well almost anywhere, you are generally better off at the colleges rated high than at those rated low. It's not "mythology".
4
Yes. I agree. At UCLA it was a mutual admiration society of like-minded individuals hired from the inside. And it was insufferable. I know for a fact that the figures are cooked. What nonsense -- what utter nonsense this article emphasis is.
Baloney. Rankings mean zero. Schools should be transparent about the cost of a degree and job prospects upon graduation. Period. Anything else is stupid snobbery.
With over a trillion in student debt I think Bruni is missing an opportunity to talk about what really matters instead of revisiting the notion if rankings which is euphemism for university scams. migdia Chinea Ucla MFA TFT 2012 (scanned).
With over a trillion in student debt I think Bruni is missing an opportunity to talk about what really matters instead of revisiting the notion if rankings which is euphemism for university scams. migdia Chinea Ucla MFA TFT 2012 (scanned).
4
One meaningful measurement -- by no means the only one -- is the amount of endowment money available per student. I agree that, depending on the course of study, you can get just as good an education at a state school as an Ivy. But the Ivy will have more money to fund scholarships, financial aid, gap year programs, study abroad and ad hoc projects. In addition to educating students in their fields of study, these opportunities teach them how to apply for grant money, which usually involves writing proposals, winning faculty support, and successfully navigating administrative requirements -- all highly useful skills that translate readily to the "real" world.
2
I have Bachelor's degrees from SUNYB (Buffalo), NYU, and the University of Washington (Seattle) and two Masters Degrees from MIT. Fields of study were mechanical, aeronautical, and astronautical engineering and meteorology. My socio-economic status as a teenager was 1st generation American with an immigrant father who started in the WV coal mines. I did have and still do have a great uncle, same as most of you, my Uncle Sam. He contributed partly or totally to all of the above, and my student debt was always zero, in monetary terms. My actual debt was paid off by service as an Air Force officer from which I retired as a colonel, followed by 24 years as a Boeing engineer working exclusively on Air Force contracts. All of the schools I mentioned offered Air Force ROTC, and likely still do. I am eternally grateful for the opportunity, and hope my uncle got his money's worth.
I received a wonderful education education at each school. I am convinced that school ratings are not nearly important as student effort. I did not earn fame or a vast fortune, but I did receive great satisfaction and early promotions by working on some of the highest priority DoD programs, including now declassified spy satellites.
If my comment is accepted, I hope that bright students who lack cash will look into ROTC scholarships offered by all military services at hundreds of distinguished universities and academies. It took Grant, Eisenhower and Carter all the way to the White House.
I received a wonderful education education at each school. I am convinced that school ratings are not nearly important as student effort. I did not earn fame or a vast fortune, but I did receive great satisfaction and early promotions by working on some of the highest priority DoD programs, including now declassified spy satellites.
If my comment is accepted, I hope that bright students who lack cash will look into ROTC scholarships offered by all military services at hundreds of distinguished universities and academies. It took Grant, Eisenhower and Carter all the way to the White House.
29
I received my BA from what is generally regarded as a second tier university -- good, but not great. The faculty in my department published, but their main emphasis was on teaching, and the vast majority were very good at it. I received an excellent education, went on to attend a top tier law school, and have had a satisfying, if somewhat unconventional, career.
1
Thank you for pointing out that having a major emphasis on teaching rather than research and publishing is good for an undergraduate school. A high school friend of mine attended Cornell and ultimately quit. One reason was that the "exalted" professors weren't around; 20-something TAs were the ones teaching her. Why pay through the nose for that?
My kid is enrolled in a SUNY school (not one of the University Centers) , completing his liberal arts requirements before transferring to a small private college, to major in engineering.
Frankly, I wish he would graduate from a SUNY school. He knows his professors, can readily find them for help and seems to be enjoying his studies. I fear the same won't happen in the dog-eat-dog competitive world of a more "prestigious" university.
My kid is enrolled in a SUNY school (not one of the University Centers) , completing his liberal arts requirements before transferring to a small private college, to major in engineering.
Frankly, I wish he would graduate from a SUNY school. He knows his professors, can readily find them for help and seems to be enjoying his studies. I fear the same won't happen in the dog-eat-dog competitive world of a more "prestigious" university.
The obsession with rankings (which is mostly for the parents' bragging rights) obscures the basic fact that there are so many excellent universities in the US, in the long run a school's ranking (within a "band" of schools of similar quality) plays no role, compared to the characteristics of individual students (curiosity, academic drive and endurance, for instance).
One factor I think matters is "academic quality of the student body"--being challenged by peers who appear to be "smarter" than you is a great motivator. But even that is widespread. Within that "band", choices based on cost and geography (moving to a new part of the country) are completely reasonable.
The best a young enterprising American can do is study in Germany (or elsewhere in Europe). With a basic knowledge of German and a B high school GPA, you're eligible. One gets a world-class education essentially for free; plus living in a European city for a few years, interacting with young people from all over, is the kind of life experience that's hard to match. You have to be self-motivated, though (it's for adults); there are no "college sports", and your fellow students will have learned much more in high school than you did (so no "distribution requirements" to slow you down.)
One factor I think matters is "academic quality of the student body"--being challenged by peers who appear to be "smarter" than you is a great motivator. But even that is widespread. Within that "band", choices based on cost and geography (moving to a new part of the country) are completely reasonable.
The best a young enterprising American can do is study in Germany (or elsewhere in Europe). With a basic knowledge of German and a B high school GPA, you're eligible. One gets a world-class education essentially for free; plus living in a European city for a few years, interacting with young people from all over, is the kind of life experience that's hard to match. You have to be self-motivated, though (it's for adults); there are no "college sports", and your fellow students will have learned much more in high school than you did (so no "distribution requirements" to slow you down.)
12
How about ranking schools by graduate admissions testing results. MCAT's, LSAT's, GMAT's and GRE's for example. Good objective data that can be hard to find.
1
The country is divided between the people who run things or have very well paying jobs and the people who serve them. The lords and the serfs. I am a serf. No job and can't compete for a job because the doors to entertainment and entertainment-related academia are CLOSED. Articles reveal that the UCLA film dean was sued for firing an assistant who caught her cooking the school's standings.
I believe that universities should be transparent about the cost of a degree and an honest discussion of chances for a decent job after graduation. Hispanics behind the cameras in entertainment do not even constitute ONE percent. Local homegrown Hispanics behind the cameras are even fewer. Local homegrown Hispanic women behind the cameras are even fewer than that -- this according to recent studies including one from USC Annenberg of media studies.
What a waste of my time and money and energy and sacrifice has been the MFA in Film. So I promised that I would speak out and tell the truth whenever possible. People have got to know what these scam institutions are doing.
Migdia Chinea Ucla MFA TFT 2012 long-time member of the wgaw.
I believe that universities should be transparent about the cost of a degree and an honest discussion of chances for a decent job after graduation. Hispanics behind the cameras in entertainment do not even constitute ONE percent. Local homegrown Hispanics behind the cameras are even fewer. Local homegrown Hispanic women behind the cameras are even fewer than that -- this according to recent studies including one from USC Annenberg of media studies.
What a waste of my time and money and energy and sacrifice has been the MFA in Film. So I promised that I would speak out and tell the truth whenever possible. People have got to know what these scam institutions are doing.
Migdia Chinea Ucla MFA TFT 2012 long-time member of the wgaw.
5
"You get out of it what you put into i." My kids said the same thing, all went off to the state U (UVM) where they had free tuition, worked hard, had tremendous experiences and learned life skills (from spending 40 hours a week on the rescue squad, from writing grant proposals to fund studies in Europe or to pay to travel for presentations at academic meetings. And they had small classes, good and talented friends and learned their academic stuff (classics, literature, chemistry, botany) as well. A better experience and more actual learning that at a high-priced institution, I believe....
1
Only one kind of ranking matters. If an institution's faculty are among the best in their respective fields, that is an excellent institution. The rest is nonsense.
1
More important than rankings are how classes offered match your child's interests, and how they may broaden your child's view of himself and the world. Beware, though; judging classes based on today's needs may not work, as the world and its requirements are changing fast...the key is for the student to find a school where he or she will LEARN HOW TO LEARN.
If money is a concern (and it is for most of us), you might want to look into which schools offer 4/5-year programs in which your 5-year student comes out with both a Bachelor's and a Master's degree.
In like vein, look at school endowments...a school with an endowment of $500 per student is likely harder to afford than a school with an endowment of $5,000 or $10,000 or $50,000 per student...this is important because of what it allows the school to offer its students educationally, but also because you're more likely to get much larger scholarships at a highly-endowed school. In our case, our child is actually able to attend a far more expensive school than the local state school which has much, much lower tuition, due to the school's endowment and resultant scholarship availability.
If money is a concern (and it is for most of us), you might want to look into which schools offer 4/5-year programs in which your 5-year student comes out with both a Bachelor's and a Master's degree.
In like vein, look at school endowments...a school with an endowment of $500 per student is likely harder to afford than a school with an endowment of $5,000 or $10,000 or $50,000 per student...this is important because of what it allows the school to offer its students educationally, but also because you're more likely to get much larger scholarships at a highly-endowed school. In our case, our child is actually able to attend a far more expensive school than the local state school which has much, much lower tuition, due to the school's endowment and resultant scholarship availability.
1
I think the salary-oriented rankings are skewed by regional salary differences. For instance, if one graduates from a New York City, Boston or San Francisco area university and sticks around in that locale for their job, then their salary will tend to be higher than if they work in Atlanta, Houston, St. Louis or other lower cost of living city.
I suppose some controls could be used. For instance, salaries of University of Houston versus Rice University graduates or Columbia University versus CUNY graduates.
I suppose some controls could be used. For instance, salaries of University of Houston versus Rice University graduates or Columbia University versus CUNY graduates.
Heck, we can't even come up with agreement on criteria for items where you think we'd have objective criteria: e.g. computers,automobiles, televisions, etc.
No wonder we don't have agreement for something as complex as higher education!
No wonder we don't have agreement for something as complex as higher education!
1
We looked at graduation rates, % of adjunct profs, overall environment as in city vs rural ( no car), ....Different strokes..it worked out well.
1
There is no sense to the college rankings. Further, there is little sense to CARING about the college rankings. As a parent and as a teacher, I urge other parents to minimize the ballooning levels of stress that high school students are experiencing around college admissions. Your son/daughter will select a school out of the choices that ultimately accept him or her. They will go to that school, make their own "home away from home", develop friendships that will define their community, and take the usual assortment of courses that will provide rewarding educational growth opportunities, disappointments, frustrations, and the occasional easy "A".
Few people reach middle age regretting the college they attended. Life intervenes. There are other, more important things to worry about.
Few people reach middle age regretting the college they attended. Life intervenes. There are other, more important things to worry about.
2
Here at New Mexico State University the typical student is Mexican-American and female.
Most students here don't choose a college. Most students have no choice but to attend New Mexico State University. It's the other school they can afford.
And because was are a Hispanic-female majority school, we are one of the nation's leading producers of female Hispanic graduates, including masters and doctorates.
The question is, What do these students actually do once they graduate? It's really hard to impossible to know.
And while graduating from university, any university, is probably a good thing, there are few jobs in New Mexico for these graduates. It would be nice to know where they going after graduating.
Most students here don't choose a college. Most students have no choice but to attend New Mexico State University. It's the other school they can afford.
And because was are a Hispanic-female majority school, we are one of the nation's leading producers of female Hispanic graduates, including masters and doctorates.
The question is, What do these students actually do once they graduate? It's really hard to impossible to know.
And while graduating from university, any university, is probably a good thing, there are few jobs in New Mexico for these graduates. It would be nice to know where they going after graduating.
1
At seventeen, I began my college career at a school, highly ranked at the time. I didn't want to attend that school. I did because of my parent's pressure and my best buddy's decision to cave into his parent's demands to attend. We both flunked out and lost our NY State Regents Scholarships.
I eventually attained degrees from three different universities. He attained a degree and then a Law degree.
I have two successful children. The girl was a driver from day one. The boy took forever and a day. It lead to a great deal of strife, between my wife an I, but this August he received his MD degree. He is now applying for residencies.
Point: The school's rankng may be the last thing to consider. Each child is different and may change dramatically in just a few short years.
I eventually attained degrees from three different universities. He attained a degree and then a Law degree.
I have two successful children. The girl was a driver from day one. The boy took forever and a day. It lead to a great deal of strife, between my wife an I, but this August he received his MD degree. He is now applying for residencies.
Point: The school's rankng may be the last thing to consider. Each child is different and may change dramatically in just a few short years.
7
While the College Scorecard information is useful, for global comparisons it is worth looking at the umultirank approach (http://www.umultirank.org). It mostly just covers European institutions now, but has the potential to provide people with the flexibility to compare institutions based on their own selection of criteria, and to also be better able to see the actual data underlying the comparisons.
By and large, they fatuous. Clearly, there are tiers: one contains Princeton, another not much less contains Michigan and Texas, then another contains regional schools such as Western Michigan.
Beyond that whether you attend a school ranked 20th in its tier or 40th is going to make very little difference. What should interest you is the specific slate of programs the school offers and its strengths in your area of interest.
Another big factor is budget. You need to be keenly conscious of cost these days, or you will start life with a debt the size of a mortgage. You had better ask what you can realistically finance.
College admissions season has become a stupid rat race. Most students should apply to fewer schools. If you have a quality university system in your state, avail yourself of it.
Finally beware of the large number of marginal schools out there that cost plenty and offer little academically.
The bottom line: Knowledge is your friend. Use it to guide your decision.
Beyond that whether you attend a school ranked 20th in its tier or 40th is going to make very little difference. What should interest you is the specific slate of programs the school offers and its strengths in your area of interest.
Another big factor is budget. You need to be keenly conscious of cost these days, or you will start life with a debt the size of a mortgage. You had better ask what you can realistically finance.
College admissions season has become a stupid rat race. Most students should apply to fewer schools. If you have a quality university system in your state, avail yourself of it.
Finally beware of the large number of marginal schools out there that cost plenty and offer little academically.
The bottom line: Knowledge is your friend. Use it to guide your decision.
2
Again, Frank? Again?
You are obsessed with college rankings. Get over it!
College rankings provide valuable and interesting data and information to young people attempting to choose which institution to attend, and their parents who are paying the bills.
Talented, hard-working young people aim for the best, and want to know which colleges are the best. Same as in every other country on the planet.
It's OK. Get over it!
You are obsessed with college rankings. Get over it!
College rankings provide valuable and interesting data and information to young people attempting to choose which institution to attend, and their parents who are paying the bills.
Talented, hard-working young people aim for the best, and want to know which colleges are the best. Same as in every other country on the planet.
It's OK. Get over it!
9
The same claim about ranking colleges was made about ranking medicine and physicians, but lo and behold, we now rank these too.
Sorry, everything has now become available for ranking, with "return on investment" the buzzword of today.
Sorry, everything has now become available for ranking, with "return on investment" the buzzword of today.
2
The college rankings foisted upon us by the U.S. News, and the like, are inaccurate, incestuous, and misleading much like the car reports from J.D Power and Consumer Reports. Getting your information solely this way is like getting your news from Twitter. Look good, feel good PR at its best that everyone must navigate and deal with given the constraints of their own personal situations.
5
Let's be honest here - if you are smart enough - study engineering at a state college - you will do just fine.
5
With the exception of Ivy League College some of the most successful people I know graduated from state universities.
1
While school quality matters, it will never matter as much as a student's quality. A good student can get a good education at almost any school, while a poor student will come out of the best university as an unchanged person, showing no intellectual or emotional growth. I've seen countless examples of this in almost 30 years of teaching in a variety of colleges and universities.
16
Interesting how none of the rankings delve into important details such as class size, and whether hands on teaching is the purview of professors or of graduate students.
I went to one on NYCs elite specialized high schools, and aspired to be a biochemist. On a number of recommendations, I went, sight unseen, to Cornell, and, frankly, the education was dreadful. Even 300 level classes were very large lectures (200-400), which was the only exposure to professors. All of the small group teaching in the sciences, as well as the labs, fell to grad students.
As a freshman, Chemistry was so big, it was divided into three lecture sections, each with over 750 students, and the lecturing was divided between two professors. The single worst teacher I EVER had was one of those professors. After a particularly incomprehensible lecture, I approached the lectern with a question. Before I could complete a sentence, his hand went up, and he flatly intoned: "If you have a question, please ask your TA. You don't have enough knowledge to have a meaningful conversation with me." I got an A in his class, but no thanks to his teaching. Fifteen years later I read about his becoming a Nobel laureate, and found out that he had graduated from the same HS as I had. I'm sure Nobelists are high on prestige for the school, but if he's a brutally incompetent teacher, how much does that help undergraduates?
I went to one on NYCs elite specialized high schools, and aspired to be a biochemist. On a number of recommendations, I went, sight unseen, to Cornell, and, frankly, the education was dreadful. Even 300 level classes were very large lectures (200-400), which was the only exposure to professors. All of the small group teaching in the sciences, as well as the labs, fell to grad students.
As a freshman, Chemistry was so big, it was divided into three lecture sections, each with over 750 students, and the lecturing was divided between two professors. The single worst teacher I EVER had was one of those professors. After a particularly incomprehensible lecture, I approached the lectern with a question. Before I could complete a sentence, his hand went up, and he flatly intoned: "If you have a question, please ask your TA. You don't have enough knowledge to have a meaningful conversation with me." I got an A in his class, but no thanks to his teaching. Fifteen years later I read about his becoming a Nobel laureate, and found out that he had graduated from the same HS as I had. I'm sure Nobelists are high on prestige for the school, but if he's a brutally incompetent teacher, how much does that help undergraduates?
31
Okay....so what are these colleges doing for the post grad who wants to learn just for the sake of learning.? The drive for college students to be employed is a worthy one. However, to be a student in a democracy means you keep informed.
Nice upon a time college only came in the form of campus butt in the chair learning. Now we have the internet. As a retiree who has attended many classes since graduating in the 70s I can now take classes from schools all over the world. Some provide credit or certificates. Most let you audit. These Moocs are amazing. I have had classes from Harvard, Cal Tech and Princeton. Free for the asking.
Other than producing job seekers what are these institutions doing for the country?
Nice upon a time college only came in the form of campus butt in the chair learning. Now we have the internet. As a retiree who has attended many classes since graduating in the 70s I can now take classes from schools all over the world. Some provide credit or certificates. Most let you audit. These Moocs are amazing. I have had classes from Harvard, Cal Tech and Princeton. Free for the asking.
Other than producing job seekers what are these institutions doing for the country?
Janet Napolitano is absolutely correct. Students are an input into their own education. The so-called best colleges in the world cannot produce a top-notch experience for a disengaged student. Putting energy into one's education does not only apply to academics, but also to opportunities on campus such as research, meaningful extracurricular activities, service learning, abroad experiences, fellowships, and summer work. Too many families focus on the college admissions process and the rankings and not enough on what students will do once they get on campus. Students need to be educated about the range of exciting experiences they can access as college students, so they graduate educated and informed and prepared to live independently and productively. Too many do not understand what college offers.
Mr Bruni, do you think your analysis of school rankings (here, in other articles, in your book) apply equally to graduate and professional school rankings? If not, please dive into this topic. I'm curious to know. Thanks
I find it ironic that Purdue is ranked as #2 in ideological diversity. I am a graduate of Purdue, am an very worried that we now have a Republican Govenor as President Mitch Daniels. We also are one of the Universities that has been a target of the Koch Brothers large donation to change their teaching philosophy in certain subject matter to adhere with that exposed by the Koch Brothers.
My other University, Catholic Univerity, a private Democrat leaning Catholic college when I obtained my undergraduate degree, also got one of those Koch donations as well.
FLorida State is another University that has been hit with these Koch donations and requirements to teach Koch Economic and Business philosophy.
This just shows why we must turn the all our governments Blue again. So we can properly fund education at all levels. Without having to rely on Billionare donors who insist on following their education philosophy.
My other University, Catholic Univerity, a private Democrat leaning Catholic college when I obtained my undergraduate degree, also got one of those Koch donations as well.
FLorida State is another University that has been hit with these Koch donations and requirements to teach Koch Economic and Business philosophy.
This just shows why we must turn the all our governments Blue again. So we can properly fund education at all levels. Without having to rely on Billionare donors who insist on following their education philosophy.
8
Ratings mean everything and they mean nothing. If you are concerned about them apply to some highly rated schools.
Go to the highest rated school that accepts you. What else are you going to do?
Go to the highest rated school that accepts you. What else are you going to do?
1
Most schools teach the same stuff. If you are in a professional program like law, accounting or medicine you have to pass a licensing test. The schools that have the strictest admissions criteria, often but not always, have the most competition in grading on the curve. So if your goal is a post graduate degree, GPA protection is important. There is the value of contacts, like Ivy League schools offer be it business or politics. Then there's money. How long do you want to be in debt after school? Finally there's personal satisfaction in doing work you love. My advice. Don't go to college right out of high school. Grow up a bit.
4
Still remember the first statistics course I took 50 years ago. The first sentence out of my professors mouth was the statement that any student in the class who used the term "rankings" would fail immediately.
1
Always been clear to my kids that they would go and be sponsored through graduate school, but never looked at any of these ratings, did the high school junior college tour thing or talked much about it. Instead we focused on their development as people and maintaining the closeness of our family. They were the only graduates of their elite private high school to live at home and go to community college. This was successful because they went away for the summers to work. In their case as Forest Service fire fighters. This gave them a big boost financially, taught them how to work and allowed them to travel internationally. Three or four years later they entered a close by University as juniors, are doing great in difficult majors and come home to visit frequently with their girl friends. They have largely side stepped the normal, expensive and angst generating priocess we put most of our children through in the transition from high school to college. They're biased for success, we're a closer family for it and are not likely to have to travel thousands of miles to visit our grand kids.
1
As much as we self-congratulate our understanding and devaluing of college rankings, vulnerable teens will not. And like many teens, the more you explain and encourage them to ignore rankings, the more they are likely to pay attention. The teen mind is not lost on these publishers. Personally, I will take as much information as available, no matter how biased, before dropping $250k. Not sure the information out there is any dirtier than it is for elections, smartphones or drugs. Gotta read between the lines.
1
Mr. Bruni, this is sensible advice for any parents and college applicants. If people can also get a grip on their own understanding of what success would mean for them, it would also help ground their decisions. Most people I know have had good lives and careers and did not go to famous schools, but they did get educations that they could afford. They took advantage of what was available every step of the way. And worked. Also - while some knew where they were headed early, floundering in your teens and early 20's is not abnormal.
Sure, if you are brilliant and ambitious, and aim to make connections for your later run for the Presidency, Yale or Princeton or Harvard seem to be good bets. But just as you cannot remake your family and childhood environments to make them perfect with a wave of a wand, you cannot wish yourself into a name institution. And - if all students who think they want in actually were accommodated - a certain percentage would be miserable there, a certain percentage would have lower than average incomes later in life, a certain percentage will wish they had taken a different route entirely.
Lower and middle income families should of course not rule out all private colleges as too expensive before they try, because the grant or loan packages may be good enough to bring the cost lower than at a public ( in-state) place. And those with lots of resources also have better support programs for students who may feel overwhelmed at first.
Sure, if you are brilliant and ambitious, and aim to make connections for your later run for the Presidency, Yale or Princeton or Harvard seem to be good bets. But just as you cannot remake your family and childhood environments to make them perfect with a wave of a wand, you cannot wish yourself into a name institution. And - if all students who think they want in actually were accommodated - a certain percentage would be miserable there, a certain percentage would have lower than average incomes later in life, a certain percentage will wish they had taken a different route entirely.
Lower and middle income families should of course not rule out all private colleges as too expensive before they try, because the grant or loan packages may be good enough to bring the cost lower than at a public ( in-state) place. And those with lots of resources also have better support programs for students who may feel overwhelmed at first.
I agree with this assessment. Rankings can no more reflect an institution's worth to an individual student than SAT scores can reflect that student's worth to an institution.
However, there is not one word here about the post-graduate reality of student debt. It's all very well to come out of college a valedictorian, but if you have to make big sacrifices in your career direction or quality of life for a period of many years to pay off huge loans, the college is more of a hindrance than a help.
High school students, accustomed to free schooling, do not understand this reality. Instead of rankings, students should have clear financial information presented to them which includes calculations of what their monthly payments will be, and for how long, once Pomp and Circumstance has ended.
However, there is not one word here about the post-graduate reality of student debt. It's all very well to come out of college a valedictorian, but if you have to make big sacrifices in your career direction or quality of life for a period of many years to pay off huge loans, the college is more of a hindrance than a help.
High school students, accustomed to free schooling, do not understand this reality. Instead of rankings, students should have clear financial information presented to them which includes calculations of what their monthly payments will be, and for how long, once Pomp and Circumstance has ended.
1
All top schools, I am thinking maybe about 40 schools, will offer a good education. To get a "better" education depends on the student's seriousness and industry. To get a "great education", it depends on the luck of finding a great teacher and the challenge of well-prepared fellow students. After that, it all depends on what you are looking for: pleasant surroundings, good physical facilities, attractive cultural activities. The wealth of the university can offer visits by expert speakers and the wealth of students can offer possibilities of future contacts. My suggestion is to choose a good school that is recognized in the field you are interested in and then do you best as a student. A degree from a prestigious university can get you an interview, but it does not guarantee success.
10
At work in all attempts to rank colleges is the casual, unexamined assumption that matters of quality can be understood by distilling them into matters of algorithmic measurements. The reality few are able to grasp is that all attempts to measure quality eventually land on measuring matters of money.
This explains the pressure to rank colleges according to their graduates' income--a perverse, Orwellian interpretation of "an education" if ever there were one. What about colleges and universities where graduates become scientists, historians, writers, artists, journalists, teachers or university professors? Where they go on to work in non-profits? Why are these lesser institutions than those like Harvard that grind out investment bankers? Where in the college ranking business is there room to consider the quality (and not merely the "ranking") of a faculty and its teaching, or the vigor of the curriculum? Or, if actually scrutinizing what graduates go on to do, where do college rankings measure the various contributions graduates make as thoughtful citizens? As intellectuals? As responsible parents? As vital members of good communities?
College rankings are a very sick kind of business that are good at one thing: Teaching the young the truth about America, which is that all that matters is money.
This explains the pressure to rank colleges according to their graduates' income--a perverse, Orwellian interpretation of "an education" if ever there were one. What about colleges and universities where graduates become scientists, historians, writers, artists, journalists, teachers or university professors? Where they go on to work in non-profits? Why are these lesser institutions than those like Harvard that grind out investment bankers? Where in the college ranking business is there room to consider the quality (and not merely the "ranking") of a faculty and its teaching, or the vigor of the curriculum? Or, if actually scrutinizing what graduates go on to do, where do college rankings measure the various contributions graduates make as thoughtful citizens? As intellectuals? As responsible parents? As vital members of good communities?
College rankings are a very sick kind of business that are good at one thing: Teaching the young the truth about America, which is that all that matters is money.
11
As the head of a school sending students off to all sorts of colleges, I suggest all ratings and rankings are somewhere between useless and harmful. The assumption with all these assessments is that there is a direct cause and effect relationship between a college, its faculty and curriculum, and the subsequent success of its students or graduates. The assumption is false, rendering the whole debate irrelevant.
Nearly all colleges and universities have wonderful faculty and rich offerings. The variable is the student, the level of curiosity she sustains and her intent to access and enjoy whatever the institution offers. Students can be deeply engaged at SUNY Binghamton, experiencing real intellectual growth. Other students can play the game at Harvard, passing courses and gaining little but the pedigree of a Harvard diploma.
In fact, many of the most highly rated schools have large lecture classes and graduate assistants teaching the courses while their celebrity full professors are off on the lecture circuit or doing research. By contrast, small colleges may have intimate connections between faculty and students, leading to much more powerful and durable experiences. For a curious, committed student, a community college may offer more dynamic learning than Stanford. But a survey won't capture it and a prestige-obsessed culture won't believe it.
Nearly all colleges and universities have wonderful faculty and rich offerings. The variable is the student, the level of curiosity she sustains and her intent to access and enjoy whatever the institution offers. Students can be deeply engaged at SUNY Binghamton, experiencing real intellectual growth. Other students can play the game at Harvard, passing courses and gaining little but the pedigree of a Harvard diploma.
In fact, many of the most highly rated schools have large lecture classes and graduate assistants teaching the courses while their celebrity full professors are off on the lecture circuit or doing research. By contrast, small colleges may have intimate connections between faculty and students, leading to much more powerful and durable experiences. For a curious, committed student, a community college may offer more dynamic learning than Stanford. But a survey won't capture it and a prestige-obsessed culture won't believe it.
27
As a Binghamton graduate from the '70's I can attest that it was, and is, a school that is a hidden treasure. I had to choose between SUNY B and Carnegie-Mellon, a more prestigious, but more expensive school for which I still have a soft spot. I took the sensible route that my family could afford and never regretted it. I later went to grad school at UNC-Chapel Hill and, though considered a much finer public university, I found the undergrads on average, weren't nearly as sharp and focused as the Binghamton young men and women. A professor at UNC, who had taught at Binghamton, said he was far more challenged by the undergrads there than at UNC.
Many years later, while on the torturous spring break college tour with my 11th grade son, we found that one of the best things you can do is pay attention to your student guide (who the university picks as their best representatives) and listen in on conversations students are having among themselves at campus eateries, also a good way to find out if the food is edible!
But to rank schools meaningfully, you need to know where the student will thrive, be happy, and get the best education they are capable of in the field they want to go into. The US News rankings have lost meaning as schools have "gamed" the system to improve their scores, including soliciting more applications to make the acceptance rate look tougher.
Many years later, while on the torturous spring break college tour with my 11th grade son, we found that one of the best things you can do is pay attention to your student guide (who the university picks as their best representatives) and listen in on conversations students are having among themselves at campus eateries, also a good way to find out if the food is edible!
But to rank schools meaningfully, you need to know where the student will thrive, be happy, and get the best education they are capable of in the field they want to go into. The US News rankings have lost meaning as schools have "gamed" the system to improve their scores, including soliciting more applications to make the acceptance rate look tougher.
What seems to be left out of these ratings--and this article, to a lesser extent--is that it's impossible to rank colleges in any quasi-absolute fashion because not all students want the same thing. Technical schools often don't have great liberal-arts courses, and vice versa. Most important, what students (and/or their parents) often want are fairly cynical benefits not overtly mentioned--such as old-boy networks and cachet to open doors, which are self-perpetuating constructs and usually antithetical to any more lofty ideals such as becoming a better citizen or a person who can lead a more meaningful life. Too many "goals" are intangible and conflicting. It's probably appropriate to have many diverse rankings--as long as they're honest about what they're ranking.
5
As a former professor and academic advisor at several colleges, private and public, my conclusion is: The student is a far greater factor than the school.
The rankings industry operates on the wrong-headed premise that the school gives "an education" to the student. But, objectively, what schools bestow is merely credentials. For actual education to happen, students must be eager to learn.
The best schools provide an environment where learning is the centerpiece–not sports or study abroad or sororities/fraternities. Credentials will certainly help in ones career but education is for the long term, and is never obsolete.
The rankings industry operates on the wrong-headed premise that the school gives "an education" to the student. But, objectively, what schools bestow is merely credentials. For actual education to happen, students must be eager to learn.
The best schools provide an environment where learning is the centerpiece–not sports or study abroad or sororities/fraternities. Credentials will certainly help in ones career but education is for the long term, and is never obsolete.
32
Unless you get extra credit for "sports or study abroad or being in a sororities/fraternities" then these e factors have nothing to do with getting a good education. What college doesn't emphasize learning as the centerpiece? But your right if you find that institution please don't place them on a list of top colleges!
What's so wrong with good study abroad programs? I don't see a contradiction to having a focus on learning. Studying abroad is, if not just for partying, a very good opportuinity to do so.
1
Programs for students involve many subjects and approaches. Some of the finest schools in terms of reputation have flimsy programs and absent professors. It's hard to know from the outside what is going on within. The surveys that lead to rankings tend to reflect research reputations and prestige of alumni. Schools that are too small lack the programs that can appeal to a broad cross-section. Schools that are too large lead to bureaucratic approaches. Cost is as important as anything. Start with the best financial deal and see if it will work. Published surveys tend to be for the purpose of selling magazines or advertising. Be cautious and optimistic.
3
Until our colleges start requiring exit examinations in majors and minors, with some degree of standardization across disciplines and institutions, it will remain impossible to measure what students actually learn between entering and graduating. As much as I hate what the Department of Education has done to establish a culture of test-taking in K-12, I have to believe a centralized measurement system would help higher ed respond to the query: "What will I get for my tuition bucks?" These days, the prospective student doesn't really know because most academic institutions don't measure outcomes.
1
This is an old idea that never worked as you intend. I was in the last class at my highly ranked college to be subjected to comprehensive exams. We found out if we'd passed and would graduate with our class three days before graduation. The stress was enormous and the test covering information we may have studied three years earlier but had long since moved beyond was hardly a way to evaluate our intellectual growth. My comp score was mediocre, but I had a successful career thanks to the rigorous research and analytical thinking and writing skills I acquired during my four years there.
3
Strongly agree for the need to start exit exams for degrees. The current system requires accumulation of credits (i.e. time served) without seeing if anything is learned. A UWash survey found 27% of graduates felt like they had gained critical thinking skills while in college.
1
Very few writers have been able to resist the marketing or money of crazy, "data-driven" ed reform talk, both about K12 and higher education. Mr. Bruni started down that path himself but, to his credit, is one of a handful that has taken the time and energy to see through this and write both intelligently and honestly about the "educational industrial complex" we have created. Thanks.
4
I wish people understood that some of the rankings - USNews, for example - consider how big a college's endowment is.
So Harvard, which regularly gets millions of dollars in donations, may be a very fine institution, but part of the reason it's ranked so high is that it is also a very rich institution.
And rich equals quality in the minds of many Americans.
So Harvard, which regularly gets millions of dollars in donations, may be a very fine institution, but part of the reason it's ranked so high is that it is also a very rich institution.
And rich equals quality in the minds of many Americans.
18
As an educator, I have my own ranking system. Just ask: how much has an institution done to solve the most important problems faced by humanity? In my view the top two problems are Poverty and Environmental collapse.
What have the usual top 10 universities in the world done about those problems? I would argue that not much. They have done a great job in increasing inequality, promoting the financial crisis, etc. But there are some great universities in Brazil, Mexico and India that have made great strides in lifting millions from poverty. They don't figure in the usual "value added" rankings, but I work for one of them, and I see their success on a daily basis, and they provide a type of education that no Ivy Leage can.
What have the usual top 10 universities in the world done about those problems? I would argue that not much. They have done a great job in increasing inequality, promoting the financial crisis, etc. But there are some great universities in Brazil, Mexico and India that have made great strides in lifting millions from poverty. They don't figure in the usual "value added" rankings, but I work for one of them, and I see their success on a daily basis, and they provide a type of education that no Ivy Leage can.
10
It is impossible to filter out the "noise" of varying student readiness and social advantage to isolate the value added by the educational experience afforded by one school vis another. There is probably more variation in outcomes and "quality" from teacher to teacher within a single institution that from college to college, and yet good teaching is simply not a high ranking priority among U.S. colleges: tenure is not awarded for good teaching (admittedly, hard to measure) but for research or published output. One can get a very good education at a low-rated school and a lousy one at a highly rated university, but if all prospective employers or graduate schools are looking at is the 'name brand' of the university you've graduated from, the only sensible decision is to choose the most prestigious college that will accept you.
14
As a retired public school Superintendent with 29 years of experience and MORE importantly the father of two college graduates, I believe any attempt to rank colleges through the use of algorithms is bogus. Both of my daughters pored over guides that offered thumbnail sketches of college life and glossy packets sent by colleges they gleaned from those guides, In the end, though, we found that there is no substitute for visiting the campus. Once on the campus of the colleges they ultimately selected they felt at home-- a sense they couldn't have gotten without setting foot on the campus and interacting with students. The feeling of a "good fit" is impossible to gather from mathematical rankings... and that feeling is far more important than the mean earnings of the previous year's graduating class or a numerical rating concocted by a media outlet trying to sell it's product.
49
These rankings and discussions of them ignore the elephant in the room. Status is an important consideration. Whether it is deserved or not, both students and employers consider status.
Everyone wants to know the opportunities open to graduates as well as the value schools added: classes, teachers, curriculum, extra-curricular, individual attention, ...
Everyone wants to know the opportunities open to graduates as well as the value schools added: classes, teachers, curriculum, extra-curricular, individual attention, ...
39
"Employers consider status"--so is college all about impressing a potential employer who isn't bright enough to look beyond a name brand?
My father was an advisor at a state university who encouraged me to save money on a liberal arts degree by going to a state university, finding a high quality department with excellent teachers, and getting the best education I could out of the experience. My degree from a state university certainly never held me back from getting a job--although during my college years, I interviewed for a job selling clothing at the mall and was told by the employer that people like me who major in Classics and have high GPAs aren't cut out for sales. I wept copiously at the lost opportunity, of course...
I was often mistaken for an Ivy League graduate when working in New York media--ditto one of my friends who, like me, figured that if she had to wrack up GSL debt getting a liberal arts degree, a state university was the way to go. We've both done just fine for ourselves, although the key to our success was to go into business for ourselves and become our own bosses. How often do parents consider schools' ability to foster entrepreneurial skills in their kids?
U.S. News and World Report rankings are great for their brand, but what do highly ranked colleges and high schools have to say about the influence of this list? That's the untold story.
My father was an advisor at a state university who encouraged me to save money on a liberal arts degree by going to a state university, finding a high quality department with excellent teachers, and getting the best education I could out of the experience. My degree from a state university certainly never held me back from getting a job--although during my college years, I interviewed for a job selling clothing at the mall and was told by the employer that people like me who major in Classics and have high GPAs aren't cut out for sales. I wept copiously at the lost opportunity, of course...
I was often mistaken for an Ivy League graduate when working in New York media--ditto one of my friends who, like me, figured that if she had to wrack up GSL debt getting a liberal arts degree, a state university was the way to go. We've both done just fine for ourselves, although the key to our success was to go into business for ourselves and become our own bosses. How often do parents consider schools' ability to foster entrepreneurial skills in their kids?
U.S. News and World Report rankings are great for their brand, but what do highly ranked colleges and high schools have to say about the influence of this list? That's the untold story.
2
Oh but status is not linear but multi-dimensional.
Status in performing music is not the same as status in creating new knowledge in the sciences or a particular area of interest of the incoming Freshman. Economic status is only one of the many rankings that one may be interested in.
Also given the large % of students who change major having many options to discover "the love of your life" (in terms of work) should count for something. If on the other hand marrying well (a different kind of love of your life) is important it would lead to a whole different set of Colleges and Universities.
Status in performing music is not the same as status in creating new knowledge in the sciences or a particular area of interest of the incoming Freshman. Economic status is only one of the many rankings that one may be interested in.
Also given the large % of students who change major having many options to discover "the love of your life" (in terms of work) should count for something. If on the other hand marrying well (a different kind of love of your life) is important it would lead to a whole different set of Colleges and Universities.
1
"If you care about socioeconomic diversity, consider Washington Monthly's rankings."
WM ranks Stanford and Harvard numbers 1 and 2, respectively. So people like the Clintons and Obamas can say,"See, we practice what we preach." But that's nonsense. Those schools have classes built from the top of the socioeconomic ladder.
WM ranks Stanford and Harvard numbers 1 and 2, respectively. So people like the Clintons and Obamas can say,"See, we practice what we preach." But that's nonsense. Those schools have classes built from the top of the socioeconomic ladder.
12
Those colleges have big endowments. That allows them to recruit nationally and to build a diverse student body both geographically, socioeconomically and even by categories you might not even think of - artists, musicians, actors, farm kids, swimmers, etc. by being able to give scholarships and healthy financial aid.
3
Thanks. Based on my experience as a retired college-level educator, manager and scientist, Mr. Bruni's column is right on. A specific relevant metric could help students and parents to sift through institutions and their self-serving promotional material. However, this isn't and never will be a multi-factor ranking this is meaningful and practical.
Otherwise, ignore the rankings, relax, visit the institutions which appear to be the best match for the student, and enjoy the experience. Put energy into learning and make the most of the resources offered by the school.
Otherwise, ignore the rankings, relax, visit the institutions which appear to be the best match for the student, and enjoy the experience. Put energy into learning and make the most of the resources offered by the school.
51
Forget college rankings. They are wildly at odds with each other, a university ranking in the top 25 in the world in the Times ranking does not even break the top 400 in the US according to Barron's.
The US Dept of Education's College Scorecard is a great place to compare schools one might be considering. The fact that incomes after graduation are based on Pell Grant recipients is actually a good thing. It provides a reference point for earnings of graduates who didn't benefit from well connected family and friends.
As for highly selective schools, research has shown that students do better in life after attending schools where they rank in the top half rather than the bottom half academically among their school mates.
Start in-state and public, where your parents have been paying taxes all of your life to subsidize higher Ed. Larger universities offer broader choices that will expand student horizons and intern opportunities in research.
Look for high graduation rates.
Choose diversity over homogeneity if you want to be prepared for the world of the future.
The US Dept of Education's College Scorecard is a great place to compare schools one might be considering. The fact that incomes after graduation are based on Pell Grant recipients is actually a good thing. It provides a reference point for earnings of graduates who didn't benefit from well connected family and friends.
As for highly selective schools, research has shown that students do better in life after attending schools where they rank in the top half rather than the bottom half academically among their school mates.
Start in-state and public, where your parents have been paying taxes all of your life to subsidize higher Ed. Larger universities offer broader choices that will expand student horizons and intern opportunities in research.
Look for high graduation rates.
Choose diversity over homogeneity if you want to be prepared for the world of the future.
75
Excellent addendum.
Those graduation rates are very important: they show to some degree how seriously involved with studies your fellow students will be, how prepared they are, and how they may influence your attitudes. Also, it's a clue as to whether the school is admitting too many ill-prepared students knowing both they are unlikely to succeed and that the school is not able to provide whatever they lack.
Those graduation rates are very important: they show to some degree how seriously involved with studies your fellow students will be, how prepared they are, and how they may influence your attitudes. Also, it's a clue as to whether the school is admitting too many ill-prepared students knowing both they are unlikely to succeed and that the school is not able to provide whatever they lack.
3
"Look for high graduation rates."
Well, that depends. Low graduation rates could be a sign that the school is a sham or that it recruits students who are not prepared for college; that's bad... but, especially in those state schools you recommended, a high graduation rate could indicate that the college is bending over backward for students who are not necessarily unintelligent, but want to do the absolute minimum to complete degrees and, boy oh boy, do colleges find ways to serve them. Online courses proloferate and standards tank. Browse a school's course offerings and pay close attention to the departments and degree programs. You won't need a Ph.D. to size up the rigor (i.e. value) of a degree. If you check out the website and see photos of smiling students who "chose a degree to fit their lifestyle," cross that school off your list.
Brunei mentions a "theory" that your education will be influenced by the quality of your peers. Well, like evolution, it's much more than just a theory. You won't learn advanced calculus or Spanish in a college full of students who cannot handle advanced calculus or Spanish and there will be no standards at a school that doesn't have the stomach to flunk. people. out.
Well, that depends. Low graduation rates could be a sign that the school is a sham or that it recruits students who are not prepared for college; that's bad... but, especially in those state schools you recommended, a high graduation rate could indicate that the college is bending over backward for students who are not necessarily unintelligent, but want to do the absolute minimum to complete degrees and, boy oh boy, do colleges find ways to serve them. Online courses proloferate and standards tank. Browse a school's course offerings and pay close attention to the departments and degree programs. You won't need a Ph.D. to size up the rigor (i.e. value) of a degree. If you check out the website and see photos of smiling students who "chose a degree to fit their lifestyle," cross that school off your list.
Brunei mentions a "theory" that your education will be influenced by the quality of your peers. Well, like evolution, it's much more than just a theory. You won't learn advanced calculus or Spanish in a college full of students who cannot handle advanced calculus or Spanish and there will be no standards at a school that doesn't have the stomach to flunk. people. out.
2
Looking for high four year graduation rates is critical. This is especially true when looking at state universities.