I'm assuming no one would have a problem if a bottom tier NBA player decided that he wanted to dominate and identified as a girl in order to play in the WNBA. No physical transition required. Correct? Anything to the contrary would imply a double standard for transgender men and women
8
thnx NYT! These articles featuring interviews with transgenders are so informative and helpful! in that they allow all us readers to marshal our arguments more cogently and thus array a comprehensive defense against this insanity when the time comes... and it will come.
2
And fwiw, he's a cute guy. If he's really good, maybe he will try out for the Coyotes. Phoenix is a LGBT-friendly town and lord knows our team can use some more talent! :O
1
First off, let's start with the necessary disclaimers to avoid (wishful thinking) getting blasted here. I don't care what any individual does and as a previous long term resident of Berkeley CA I will point out that I have many more friends of all spectra and leanings than typical. All that being said I have a problem with this. If you want to be male and were born female, fine. But if you simultaneously want to be addressed as male, live as a male, etc. then WHY remain in a woman's pro league. It baffles the mind. I presume no testosterone supplements or it would be truly wrong. But still, if you want the life then embrace it at all levels not just when convenient. Part of being male should be respecting women. A man being in a woman's sports league is not doing so.
The NYT needs to get back to critical reporting on all topics and stop being a bully pulpit for what it seems to regard as a social cause. Whether that is right or not the NYT should not excuse itself from the purpose of a news organization.
The NYT needs to get back to critical reporting on all topics and stop being a bully pulpit for what it seems to regard as a social cause. Whether that is right or not the NYT should not excuse itself from the purpose of a news organization.
15
If she is a he now, why is he allowed to play in a women's league? I guess they don't believe she is a he. The world is upside down.
9
Is there a debate going on about the ability of a woman on a women's team staying on that team when the woman becomes a man?
10
Not with Mr. Browne specifically, as he has elected to hold off on testosterone replacement therapy until he retires from the sport, so as to avoid such difficulties. Instead, he's just asking that people respect his chosen name and pronouns until such a time as he is able to pursue physical transition.
5
If you read the article, you would see that he is delaying physical transition until after his hockey career is over - so what possible difference could it now make that he is a man on a woman's team?
7
The article says Harrison is now living as a man (using male name/pronouns and presenting himself as a man), but is not pursuing any further physical transformation (surgery, hormone therapy, etc) until his playing career is over. The team accepts him and he does not have any biological advantages over his teammates or opponents. There is simply no debate required.
"For now, Browne’s change is in name only. He has said he will delay a physical transition, including hormone treatments, until after his hockey career is over."
"For now, Browne’s change is in name only. He has said he will delay a physical transition, including hormone treatments, until after his hockey career is over."
6
If gender not sex determines the spaces a person has access to, how is it that someone who identifies as a man competes in a women's hockey league?
Let's frame it in the Bathroom Wars debate. Where legislation permits, Harrison is allowed to use the men's restroom because his gender is male. He would therefore be excluded from women's restrooms; his gender is not female.
Yet, in Harrison's case, he has access to both spaces: he competes in a women's hockey league, but, presumably, he's be allowed to compete in a men's hockey league. (Again, where legislation permits, he's currently allowed to use men's restroom facilities.)
How is this possible? The dominant argument put forward by trans activists posits gender to be independent of sex. It does not, however, challenge the gender binary; they have not asked the public to accept two more discrete genders. Transmen are men and transwomen are women.
As far as I can tell, the only way Harrison would be allowed to compete in the women's league is if the gender binary doesn't exist, if, perhaps, transmen and transwomen are to be somehow different than men and women respectively. But this argument contradicts what trans activists have asked the public to accept.
It is not my intention to sound hostile. My questions are sincere. It's something I haven't been able to wrap my head around so far, and I suspect I'm not the only one with this conundrum.
Let's frame it in the Bathroom Wars debate. Where legislation permits, Harrison is allowed to use the men's restroom because his gender is male. He would therefore be excluded from women's restrooms; his gender is not female.
Yet, in Harrison's case, he has access to both spaces: he competes in a women's hockey league, but, presumably, he's be allowed to compete in a men's hockey league. (Again, where legislation permits, he's currently allowed to use men's restroom facilities.)
How is this possible? The dominant argument put forward by trans activists posits gender to be independent of sex. It does not, however, challenge the gender binary; they have not asked the public to accept two more discrete genders. Transmen are men and transwomen are women.
As far as I can tell, the only way Harrison would be allowed to compete in the women's league is if the gender binary doesn't exist, if, perhaps, transmen and transwomen are to be somehow different than men and women respectively. But this argument contradicts what trans activists have asked the public to accept.
It is not my intention to sound hostile. My questions are sincere. It's something I haven't been able to wrap my head around so far, and I suspect I'm not the only one with this conundrum.
29
My thoughts exactly! I applaud the medical advancements that relieve those born with the wrong gender. And I'm thrilled to see that society is catching up in my lifetime! But it sort of seems like it's more than an issue of delaying hormone treatments. The few people I've met who openly talk about their reassignment have all stressed that they embraced the right gender all the way. This seems like a half-step?
2
Perhaps it is a full step to keep the ability to play competitively ? Feelings don't make a person a man.. Men so far can't play on a woman team.
2
Best to Browne, and thanks for not starting the hormone treatment until your hockey career ends. We can support our transgender community, but at some point, sex can't be compromised by gender identity. The body of a male has more testosterone as well as a larger heart, more lung capacity, and more muscle mass than the average female body. Transgender women should not compete on women's teams. Transgender men taking male hormones should not compete on women's teams. Gender transcends the binary, but sex does not. For women's sports to have fair play, only females should play them. If not, female women have a lower status, and it is not fair play.
15
I have to admit, I'm confused as to why Mr. Brown is playing in a women's league. I get that he's delaying hormone treatment but there's a disconnect here, isn't there?
17
That's because if she played in a men's league, she would get destroyed. She. Is probably not even good enough to play for a Minnesota high school men's hockey team.
5
Yes. It is the elephant in the room.
5
Not at all. If you believe in "equal pay for equal work" and "same sex marriage" then you basically accept the notion that the male and female minds are functionally interchangeable. (whatever difference may exist between the averages of all the male scores and female scores on math tests, or whatever, will be small compared to the variance within the population of men and women)
In this case, we have a male mind in a female body. He recognizes that hormone treatments would give him an unfair advantage in the female hockey league and is forgoing them to remain eligible.
But how does admitting that he has a male mind, give him an unfair advantage in the league and make him ineligible to play? Locker room privacy? Maybe, but I assume there are plenty of lesbians in the league. He should be held to the same standards of *behavior* (not identity) that they, and the coaches, etc. are held to.
If he was born female and has done nothing to change his body, on what basis are you saying he's now ineligible to play?
In this case, we have a male mind in a female body. He recognizes that hormone treatments would give him an unfair advantage in the female hockey league and is forgoing them to remain eligible.
But how does admitting that he has a male mind, give him an unfair advantage in the league and make him ineligible to play? Locker room privacy? Maybe, but I assume there are plenty of lesbians in the league. He should be held to the same standards of *behavior* (not identity) that they, and the coaches, etc. are held to.
If he was born female and has done nothing to change his body, on what basis are you saying he's now ineligible to play?
Good for him! And even better for his teammates and coach for not turning a hair about this. May many other people learn from everybody in this locker room.
6
As a transgender man myself, I really need to stop reading the comment section of articles about transgender issues! While I know I can count on the NYT readership (and perhaps, the active moderation of their intrepid website staff) to withhold any outright hatefulness or bigotry, it is, at times, a painful reminder that there are many out there who see me as a weirdo or a freak.
I thought this was a very affirming piece. I know that for many people, both transgender and not, are unsure about having a trans man on a women's team. It raises uncomfortable questions about what gender is. For trans folks, the decision to remain suggests that biological sex trumps identified gender, that Harrison isn't "really" a man -- an unpleasant thought. For cis (non-transgender) people, this whole thing must feel like a topsy-turvey nightmare.
But truthfully, I just want Mr. Browne to be happy. I'm 23, too, and while not a pro athlete, am fairly high-achieving. Normalcy was all I ever wanted, and I lived my life in fear of ruining my professional success by coming out as transgender. It was eating me up in ugly ways. To see his friends respect and support him, despite all this confusion was... incredible. I think, perhaps, we're overcomplicating all this. Let a guy play a little hockey. He's not cheating. It's no big deal. I love that.
I thought this was a very affirming piece. I know that for many people, both transgender and not, are unsure about having a trans man on a women's team. It raises uncomfortable questions about what gender is. For trans folks, the decision to remain suggests that biological sex trumps identified gender, that Harrison isn't "really" a man -- an unpleasant thought. For cis (non-transgender) people, this whole thing must feel like a topsy-turvey nightmare.
But truthfully, I just want Mr. Browne to be happy. I'm 23, too, and while not a pro athlete, am fairly high-achieving. Normalcy was all I ever wanted, and I lived my life in fear of ruining my professional success by coming out as transgender. It was eating me up in ugly ways. To see his friends respect and support him, despite all this confusion was... incredible. I think, perhaps, we're overcomplicating all this. Let a guy play a little hockey. He's not cheating. It's no big deal. I love that.
right....because they're ALL WOMEN, sharing a locker room. no problem there.
It becomes a problem when men who think they are women want to share the locker room with actual women (or vice versa)
It becomes a problem when men who think they are women want to share the locker room with actual women (or vice versa)
6
Cameron,
It is indeed a delicate issue, and for a trans person (and allies to a lesser extent) it can be frustrating, downright hurtful, or even depressing to see people who don't show any kind of compassion when they talk about transgender folk, whose intent, it seems, is just to provoke.
That said, there are many well-intended people who aren't yet sure how to navigate the language or who have earnest questions to help them understand what it means to be transgender. If trans people find this upsetting, then they shouldn't engage in is conversation. At the same time, at least some trans people must engage in this conversation if they want to be understood and if they want society to adapt.
There are necessary questions about the practical implications. As much as you (and I and plenty of other people) want Harrison to be happy, it is not enough to say "let him do what he wants as long as it makes him happy." (The problems with a policy like that should be self-evident.) These questions aren't "overcomplicated" but appropriately complicated for such a complex issue. They need answers.
It is indeed a delicate issue, and for a trans person (and allies to a lesser extent) it can be frustrating, downright hurtful, or even depressing to see people who don't show any kind of compassion when they talk about transgender folk, whose intent, it seems, is just to provoke.
That said, there are many well-intended people who aren't yet sure how to navigate the language or who have earnest questions to help them understand what it means to be transgender. If trans people find this upsetting, then they shouldn't engage in is conversation. At the same time, at least some trans people must engage in this conversation if they want to be understood and if they want society to adapt.
There are necessary questions about the practical implications. As much as you (and I and plenty of other people) want Harrison to be happy, it is not enough to say "let him do what he wants as long as it makes him happy." (The problems with a policy like that should be self-evident.) These questions aren't "overcomplicated" but appropriately complicated for such a complex issue. They need answers.
3
So cutting your hair and dressing like the opposite gender means that you actually become the opposite gender?
When it comes down to it, as far as I can tell, transgender people identify with the roles that society has set out for certain genders. In this sense, the whole transgender movement is contrary to what feminists claim to believe, that differences between the sexes in things such as dress, occupation, and appearance are merely the result of the culture, and that societal barriers like these should be done away with. The transgender movement reinforces these stereotypes, with people like Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner saying the one of the reasons s/he knew he was transgender because he used to enjoy trying on his mother's and sister's clothes.
The biological sex of a person is indisputable; a person either has a Y chromosome or they don't. Saying that I'm a woman because I feel like a woman is therefore as absurd as saying I have blonde hair because I feel like I have blonde hair. Saying that I prefer to be associated with roles and behaviors generally reserved for women, on the other hand, is every person's right, be they male or female.
When it comes down to it, as far as I can tell, transgender people identify with the roles that society has set out for certain genders. In this sense, the whole transgender movement is contrary to what feminists claim to believe, that differences between the sexes in things such as dress, occupation, and appearance are merely the result of the culture, and that societal barriers like these should be done away with. The transgender movement reinforces these stereotypes, with people like Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner saying the one of the reasons s/he knew he was transgender because he used to enjoy trying on his mother's and sister's clothes.
The biological sex of a person is indisputable; a person either has a Y chromosome or they don't. Saying that I'm a woman because I feel like a woman is therefore as absurd as saying I have blonde hair because I feel like I have blonde hair. Saying that I prefer to be associated with roles and behaviors generally reserved for women, on the other hand, is every person's right, be they male or female.
23
"For now, Browne’s change is in name only. He has said he will delay a physical transition, including hormone treatments, until after his hockey career is over."
Are you kidding me? This information is glossed over as if it is marginal to this story! I think it is the whole story. It is a story about a woman who changed her first name, did some bench presses, and worked on her wrist shot.
Are you kidding me? This information is glossed over as if it is marginal to this story! I think it is the whole story. It is a story about a woman who changed her first name, did some bench presses, and worked on her wrist shot.
20
the real story here was, how can this person empirically determine that she feels like a man rather than a woman, and how can she convincingly argue that she is legally a man but should play on the women's team....but those questions are never asked
8
As a human being, I support Harrison Browne. But I wonder if a transgender woman would be allowed to play in this league.
10
"What's in a name? that which we call a rose/ By any other name would smell as sweet"...Play on Harrison!
Hey New York Times, you don't need to include trans people's birth names when introducing them.
2
It's germane when someone's prior accomplishments are associated with a different name, as is true for all the athletes mentioned here. "Five goals and several assists in 18 games for the Beauts" were credited to Hailey Browne; there are no stats under Harrison Browne for the 2015-16 season. Had he changed his name because of marriage, divorce, conversion, or otherwise, it would also have been germane to reference the name under which his record, press mentions, etc could be found.
13
Kate,
My understanding is that journalists ask for the person's permission before using their birth names. And in this case, Harrison Browne has been very public about his coming out experience; he's still playing in the women's league, after all.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who has noticed that many people are quick to take offense these days when it isn't warranted, a big problem because it cheapens it when it *is* warranted. I think you jumped the gun with your proscription.
My understanding is that journalists ask for the person's permission before using their birth names. And in this case, Harrison Browne has been very public about his coming out experience; he's still playing in the women's league, after all.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who has noticed that many people are quick to take offense these days when it isn't warranted, a big problem because it cheapens it when it *is* warranted. I think you jumped the gun with your proscription.
12
I would disagree with you on this as the article is about the transition that he is going through and the corresponding transition that our culture is going through.
5
Sorry, if you have the chromosomes of a woman, that is what you are, regardless of what you may want to be. It is a psychological problem of failing to accept the gender you were born as. Get some therapy to help you accept yourself.
21
Alan, you are simply wrong. I'm the parent of a child who was born female and "came out" as male at 8 years of age. I am proud that my son knows himself well enough to accept who he is. I just wish people like you could accept him, too.
12
Is you statement based on scientific evidence and knowledge of the many characteristics that determine a person's gender identity, or a belief you have? You might have a stronger argument if you were clear from which point you are coming from.
Also, why is for you to decide whether some else needs therapy?
Also, why is for you to decide whether some else needs therapy?
5
Gender is on a continuum. People should be what they feel they are, not what you want them to be.
6