We should pay attention to the way Americans are losing thousands of jobs through H1B visas used by Indian outsourcing companies e.g. Cognizant Technology Solutions, HCL America, Tata Consultancy Services(TCS), Accenture and Wipro after being required to train their Indian replacements to do their jobs. They seem to have no legal recourse-see NYT 10-13-2016 "Judge Says Disney Didn't Violate Visa Laws in Layoffs". These are accounting and technology jobs e.g., New York Life NYT 9-29-2015 "Toys 'R' Us Brings Temporary Foreign Workers to U.S. to Move Jobs Overseas":NYT 6-11-2016 "Laid-Off Americans, Required to Zip Lips on Way Out, Grow Bolder". The U.S. government is a willing partner in this!
81
It's all about keeping the democratic voting block fat and happy. Let them all in and on election day- just remember the party who made it possible for you to be here! The bitter reality is Hillary doesn't care about keeping families together- she cares about votes. Trump doesn't care about immigrant families, he just wants them gone. Now then- who is more selfish and evil with their true intentions- the one who openly flaunts it or the one who tries to hide it?
15
American politics is so jejune. We treat people as commodities when we need them and as parasites when they get hungry. The Republican Party determined -- purely as political analysis, mind you -- they were offending minorities and immigrants. Then they promoted Donald Trump, the most offensive retro bully they could squeeze out of the pack. He protected the base from their own party.
After this election -- notwithstanding Trump TV, Trump Political Party, Trump Open, Trump Clothes, or any other Trump enterprise -- the base will be disillusioned to learn Donald only wants their money. Perhaps they will never vote again. heh heh.
Let's encourage responsible Republicans -- those who rejected Trump from the start -- to re-form the GOP around moderate policies near the political center, where elections are won. That would be a fitting testament to this nasty election.
After this election -- notwithstanding Trump TV, Trump Political Party, Trump Open, Trump Clothes, or any other Trump enterprise -- the base will be disillusioned to learn Donald only wants their money. Perhaps they will never vote again. heh heh.
Let's encourage responsible Republicans -- those who rejected Trump from the start -- to re-form the GOP around moderate policies near the political center, where elections are won. That would be a fitting testament to this nasty election.
15
It is time to stop worrying about people looking to make their lives better. I propose we take three steps that would dramatically reduce the problems at the border: legalize and regulate recreational drugs, issue temporary worker permits in vast numbers and dramatically increase legal immigration, and dramatically increase enforcement of employment law. We all know that this would solve the problem, improve our economy, and dramatically reduce crime. Why don't we do it?
43
The story is missing one very important and well-documented fact. Before the border was militarized under Clinton and AG Reno, it was fairly easy to cross. This resulted in seasonal flows of undocumented workers. Men would cross the border into the U.S., work for a period of time, and then go back to Mexico. Their families stayed home. When the border was substantially hardened, with the addition of barriers, many more agents and use of detection technology, the seasonal flow was replaced by permanent illegal migration. Only now entire families moved north, as border crossing became lots riskier and more expensive. One can track the militarization with the explosion of the illegal alien population. They coincide. What keeps Mexicans from crossing the border is the paucity of jobs and not much else.
25
The walls that live and thrive in the hearts and minds of one kind of man, woman and child against another are a reality that transcends any physical walls.
In the beginning the one and only human race species evolved by biological DNA genetic evolutionary fit means in East Africa 250,000 years. Multicolored by chronological ecological isolation primarily related to production of Vitamin D and protecting genes from damaging solar radiation at different latitudes and altitudes.
North America was invaded and occupied by human beings coming from Asia about 13, 000 years ago. Spreading throughout the land by any means necessary. Europeans came to the America's along with their enslaved American property invading and occupying the land in a bloody high tech conquest. My white European America ancestors owned and bred with my black African American ancestors and conquered my brown Native American ancestors.
The wall is human history born of asking "Am I my brother's keeper?" when the other is neither your brother nor sister. There was a Gandhi and a Mandela and a King along with a Hitler and a Stalin and a Napoleon.
In the beginning the one and only human race species evolved by biological DNA genetic evolutionary fit means in East Africa 250,000 years. Multicolored by chronological ecological isolation primarily related to production of Vitamin D and protecting genes from damaging solar radiation at different latitudes and altitudes.
North America was invaded and occupied by human beings coming from Asia about 13, 000 years ago. Spreading throughout the land by any means necessary. Europeans came to the America's along with their enslaved American property invading and occupying the land in a bloody high tech conquest. My white European America ancestors owned and bred with my black African American ancestors and conquered my brown Native American ancestors.
The wall is human history born of asking "Am I my brother's keeper?" when the other is neither your brother nor sister. There was a Gandhi and a Mandela and a King along with a Hitler and a Stalin and a Napoleon.
9
I cannot say that this qualifies as a clear analysis of the reality we all face, but within this post is a reality that we ignore at deep cost. Walls serve multiple functions, but when they work to destroy our common humanity, nothing good can result.
What an outstanding piece of journalism! It really opens my eyes!
Since most "illegal" immigrants arrive through JFK, the best we'll get from a (larger, longer) wall will be a sickly satiated diversion from any real solution. It'll make some poor rubes feel good, an it'll get a few Trump lookalikes elected or make them richer, but it won't make us "secure."
Better to open up borders in more humane ways that spare border families and ranchers the plight of being caught in the middle - keeping cattle from choking to death on plastic and farmers' resources from being pillaged and, most important of all, keep people from dying in the desert.
Is it really worth it go to such lengths to "protect" our "way of life"?
Since most "illegal" immigrants arrive through JFK, the best we'll get from a (larger, longer) wall will be a sickly satiated diversion from any real solution. It'll make some poor rubes feel good, an it'll get a few Trump lookalikes elected or make them richer, but it won't make us "secure."
Better to open up borders in more humane ways that spare border families and ranchers the plight of being caught in the middle - keeping cattle from choking to death on plastic and farmers' resources from being pillaged and, most important of all, keep people from dying in the desert.
Is it really worth it go to such lengths to "protect" our "way of life"?
12
There is a solution to migration, it's called economic development. When education levels rise in women and job opportunities expand, as they have in Mexico, the birth rate falls. The birth rate in Mexico has dropped from 6 or 7 in the 1970s and before, to about 2 now, which is why illegal immigration from Mexico has reached net zero today from millions who arrived during the Reagan Administration. Note that under-developed Central America has replaced Mexico as a source of illegal immigration.
NAFTA was a big part of this change, coming at a time when Mexico was teetering on the verge of collapse during the era of the peso devaluation and the peak of the flood of Asian automotive imports.
Today, Mexico is stable, more cars and trucks are assembled in the US than ever, though with far fewer labor hours because of automation.
Without NAFTA and North American supply chain integration, Mexico would look like Venezuela, if not Syria, not a good situation on your 2,000 mile southern border.
Meanwhile, the retail side of the US automotive business, dealers, parts and service, 3.5 times larger than the manufacturing sector, is starved for qualified workers because of our educational failures and other social dysfunction renders too many unemployable.
But that's too hard to fix, much easier to holler "build the wall!". Good luck with that.
NAFTA was a big part of this change, coming at a time when Mexico was teetering on the verge of collapse during the era of the peso devaluation and the peak of the flood of Asian automotive imports.
Today, Mexico is stable, more cars and trucks are assembled in the US than ever, though with far fewer labor hours because of automation.
Without NAFTA and North American supply chain integration, Mexico would look like Venezuela, if not Syria, not a good situation on your 2,000 mile southern border.
Meanwhile, the retail side of the US automotive business, dealers, parts and service, 3.5 times larger than the manufacturing sector, is starved for qualified workers because of our educational failures and other social dysfunction renders too many unemployable.
But that's too hard to fix, much easier to holler "build the wall!". Good luck with that.
32
The illegal immigration is the symptom of larger problem that is actually global in nature, and that is inequality, which the US leads in the western world. In spite of some improvements Central America is one the most unequal regions in the world, which is why the US has been experiencing so much illegal immigration along the southern border.
http://latincorrespondent.com/2015/06/oxfam-study-highlights-mexicos-dra...
"The report, entitled “Extreme Inequality in Mexico: Concentration of Economic and Political Power,” reveals that while GDP per capita increased by less than one percent per year, the fortune of the 16 richest Mexicans quintupled between 1996 and 2014.
Mexico’s economy has stagnated in this period, and the number of people living in poverty has grown considerably……
https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/wp/2014/wp14124.pdf
…..However, Latin America remains the most unequal region in the world. This study documents the declining trend in income inequality in Latin America and proposes various reasons behind this important development. …..our results suggest that almost two-thirds of the recent decline in income inequality in Latin America is explained by policies and strong GDP growth, with policies alone explaining more than half of this total decline. Higher education spending is the most important driver, followed by stronger foreign direct investment and higher tax revenues.
http://latincorrespondent.com/2015/06/oxfam-study-highlights-mexicos-dra...
"The report, entitled “Extreme Inequality in Mexico: Concentration of Economic and Political Power,” reveals that while GDP per capita increased by less than one percent per year, the fortune of the 16 richest Mexicans quintupled between 1996 and 2014.
Mexico’s economy has stagnated in this period, and the number of people living in poverty has grown considerably……
https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/wp/2014/wp14124.pdf
…..However, Latin America remains the most unequal region in the world. This study documents the declining trend in income inequality in Latin America and proposes various reasons behind this important development. …..our results suggest that almost two-thirds of the recent decline in income inequality in Latin America is explained by policies and strong GDP growth, with policies alone explaining more than half of this total decline. Higher education spending is the most important driver, followed by stronger foreign direct investment and higher tax revenues.
Greeks crossing the St. Lawrence river in 1951. My father, having left Greece to join my grandfather in Manhattan in 1949, had to bring his two sisters into the U.S. from Montreal. A Canadian "coyote" rowed them across into the U.S. to an awaiting car, then train down to New York. As Spartans, they never learned to swim. And yet, they risked their lives and created families here in America.
My father then fought in the Korean War, married, and with his brothers, opened the Chelsea Steak and Chop House on the corner of 8th Avenue and 23rd St. in 1954 wth his younger brothers. I used to be a busboy there and Mr. Will Weng, N.Y. Times crossword puzzle editor was one of our customers.
My father then fought in the Korean War, married, and with his brothers, opened the Chelsea Steak and Chop House on the corner of 8th Avenue and 23rd St. in 1954 wth his younger brothers. I used to be a busboy there and Mr. Will Weng, N.Y. Times crossword puzzle editor was one of our customers.
12
Walls would never work. But Doolittle raiders in 1942 did not work in the sense that it did much damage to the Japanese. It was the perception that something was being done. What is important here is the sense that the invasion of our country by illegal persons from all parts of the planet must end. We cannot support all of humanities disasters. This is not the American dream for the planet populace. We the middle class no longer have any voice or say. Our children will have a exceedingly difficult future. Ask any millennial. Unless there are serious consequences for the hiring of intruders to this country. We in turn will become just like the not so Great Britain. Wathcing the tellly about the glory days of the empire. Trump made it to the nomination on the term " build a wall" that should tell you something about what the diminished middle class in this country is feeling and wanting.
5
"Feelings" don't make for good policies. Having "a feeling" is not equal to knowing the facts. But theyve been made equal by the GOP over the last several decades. By the Xtian right, and men like Gingrich, and others who vilified the Eastern elites, and West Coast liberals as actively trying to decimate the lives of the "average" American living a humble, not so educated, god-fearing life. (lol, god-fearing)
Yet the GOP was the party doing the most (not all) decimating of those very same people they pandered to for votes. They did it over and over, got the same gullible Americans to vote for them. All based on lies about liberals,
secularism, too much focus on abortion and anti-rights for homosexuals. Meanwhile, both behind the scenes and out in the open, the GOP has been actively undermining The Democracy (that they allegedly hold so dear) that they said the liberals,etc were destroying - by initiating all these voter registration rules/laws to keep out mostly the black and Latino, and poorer voter that tended to go for the Democrats.
And far too many of these very same voters are now supporting a man, who has said he WOULD purposely undermine The Democracy. Purposely undermine all that is truly holy about this nation - and still they dont get-it! They belligerently look the other way regarding Trumps behaviors and promises and force their racist, conspiracy narratives onto everyone and thing they deem as The Enemy.
For what? His empty promises to save them.
Yet the GOP was the party doing the most (not all) decimating of those very same people they pandered to for votes. They did it over and over, got the same gullible Americans to vote for them. All based on lies about liberals,
secularism, too much focus on abortion and anti-rights for homosexuals. Meanwhile, both behind the scenes and out in the open, the GOP has been actively undermining The Democracy (that they allegedly hold so dear) that they said the liberals,etc were destroying - by initiating all these voter registration rules/laws to keep out mostly the black and Latino, and poorer voter that tended to go for the Democrats.
And far too many of these very same voters are now supporting a man, who has said he WOULD purposely undermine The Democracy. Purposely undermine all that is truly holy about this nation - and still they dont get-it! They belligerently look the other way regarding Trumps behaviors and promises and force their racist, conspiracy narratives onto everyone and thing they deem as The Enemy.
For what? His empty promises to save them.
14
Don't build a wall - bust the employers.
I'm not suggesting it would be easy - but neither is the "strategy" we have used for so many years. And neither am I saying I am anywhere near the first to come up with it. Not by far. But somehow - I wonder - it never goes anywhere.
The only long term solution to illegal immigration is to eliminate the demand.
Go after the people who employ illegal immigrants, not the people who seek employment.
The benefits are obvious. By going after one employer you eliminate the need to go after every individual employee. You recover unpaid taxes - take profits and assets - instead of just expending tax dollars to export people who return to the same employers. You reduce the demand which reduces the supply.
You don't have to spend the billions to build and patrol a wall. Why would anyone come if they could not get American work?
But, of course, there is no political will for this obvious solution, no outrage, no desire to put business owners out of business or prosecute those criminals- to force them to hire American workers or legal immigrants and pay fair and legal wages, taxes and benefits to those employees.
Just keep encouraging illegal immigration, look the other way on the obscene profits being made by American business on it, the loss of jobs and business taxes and employee's reportable income taxes it means to the economy, and build that big, ugly and ineffectual wall - and count the bodies..
I'm not suggesting it would be easy - but neither is the "strategy" we have used for so many years. And neither am I saying I am anywhere near the first to come up with it. Not by far. But somehow - I wonder - it never goes anywhere.
The only long term solution to illegal immigration is to eliminate the demand.
Go after the people who employ illegal immigrants, not the people who seek employment.
The benefits are obvious. By going after one employer you eliminate the need to go after every individual employee. You recover unpaid taxes - take profits and assets - instead of just expending tax dollars to export people who return to the same employers. You reduce the demand which reduces the supply.
You don't have to spend the billions to build and patrol a wall. Why would anyone come if they could not get American work?
But, of course, there is no political will for this obvious solution, no outrage, no desire to put business owners out of business or prosecute those criminals- to force them to hire American workers or legal immigrants and pay fair and legal wages, taxes and benefits to those employees.
Just keep encouraging illegal immigration, look the other way on the obscene profits being made by American business on it, the loss of jobs and business taxes and employee's reportable income taxes it means to the economy, and build that big, ugly and ineffectual wall - and count the bodies..
24
Speaking to the journalism here - this is really an excellent article that offers a unique perspective on this difficult issue. I appreciated seeing this American problem put into a broader world context.
9
Walls don't work? Lets take down the fences around the white house! Remove the walls around the Clinton house.
We should tell Mexico the wall is there to prevent millions of Americans from entering Mexico illegaly and taking jobs from their people and to help prevent them from paying for education and health care of the "undocumented" American migrants.
We should tell Mexico the wall is there to prevent millions of Americans from entering Mexico illegaly and taking jobs from their people and to help prevent them from paying for education and health care of the "undocumented" American migrants.
8
This is a absurd analogy, as there is a significant difference between a fence (or wall) around one's property, and border built between two countries -- and the rest is just ridicuous.
Try again.
Try again.
18
If you really want to have a serious conversation an issue, then don't begin with a ridiculous false equivalency. We're hearing far too many of those as it is. There is a huge difference to providing hard perimeter security for small enclosures (like the White House) covering a few hundred yards at most, as opposed to a hard "line" defense nearly a thousand miles long. Apples and oranges.
There are always legitimate arguments to be made about the best and most effective way to manage immigration and border security. But one has to limit the discussion to the real world, with a firm understanding of what is possible (and effective) and what is not.
The frustration of "discussing" issues like these with Trump and his supporters is that they seem to have no interest in a realistic conversation. We hear lots of arguments based on premises which are demonstrably false (Trump didn't support the Iraqi war?), conspiracy theories (birtherism?!; that Clinton's email protocols were in any way different from those of Rice or Powell?) and "solutions" to problems which bear no resemblance to the actual problem or what would actually constitute a solution.
We're happy to talk with you about your concerns. But first, you've got to start making sense.
There are always legitimate arguments to be made about the best and most effective way to manage immigration and border security. But one has to limit the discussion to the real world, with a firm understanding of what is possible (and effective) and what is not.
The frustration of "discussing" issues like these with Trump and his supporters is that they seem to have no interest in a realistic conversation. We hear lots of arguments based on premises which are demonstrably false (Trump didn't support the Iraqi war?), conspiracy theories (birtherism?!; that Clinton's email protocols were in any way different from those of Rice or Powell?) and "solutions" to problems which bear no resemblance to the actual problem or what would actually constitute a solution.
We're happy to talk with you about your concerns. But first, you've got to start making sense.
18
As an atheist I ask, What would Jesus do?
11
Did anyone mention the fact that the "Wall" between Mexico and the US would be an ecological nightmare? It might take decades to get an environmental study done and than it would most likely be rejected because of the environmental damage the wall would do.
Oh, I forgot the conservative party does not really want to conserve anything, how ironic.
Oh, I forgot the conservative party does not really want to conserve anything, how ironic.
17
You surely realize that in the modern "conversation" there is no room for any creatures other than the supreme rulers of the universe, or at least a smallish patch in North American. I completely agree with you, but despite the alleged environmental era we live in, societies and the politicians/business people who direct things have no real understanding of the bigger picture. I would hope that educating them is possible, but this does not seem to be a winning hand.
From my home in Maryland, I am unable to share or completely understand the concerns of those Americans living at the border with Mexico and for one reason: I don’t live there with this problem on a day to day basis. Mr. Ashurst, quoted in the article, sounds both concerned and justified in his complaint.
Immigration Reform is a dire need to be fulfilled but emotionally, it has been kicked to death. It has been Trumped. The people living beside the borders have every right to be concerned. Perhaps fences and walls are part of the solution but certainly not the only answers.
Congress needs to lead and help out. Can they take such a step in the midst of this acidic pre-election debauchery, I wish I knew.
Immigration Reform is a dire need to be fulfilled but emotionally, it has been kicked to death. It has been Trumped. The people living beside the borders have every right to be concerned. Perhaps fences and walls are part of the solution but certainly not the only answers.
Congress needs to lead and help out. Can they take such a step in the midst of this acidic pre-election debauchery, I wish I knew.
20
The people who do manage to get through are tough, resilient, hard working and smart. Exactly the kind of people we need to keep America great.
20
Walls lead to more violence. The US must take a roll in helping the countries of the Western Hemisphere deal with their populations. The cartels and the violence are key issues that must be dealt with to stop the immigration. Walls do not hit on the core issues. The US could find an orderly way to bring immigrants into the US or Canada. Can the US and Canada work on a plan together?
12
Question: Why do illegals come to America?
Answer: Because US citizens give them jobs and money.
Answer: Because US citizens give them jobs and money.
68
As far back as Riggs v. Palmer, 22 N.E. 188 (1889), the courts have ruled that a criminal should not profit from his crime, and that the state has an overriding interest in preventing that from happening. While this has primarily been used in inheritance and insurance issues, I fail to see any precedent against applying it to immigration law as well.
Any illegal immigrant is, by definition, a criminal. If the state grants him or her any benefits, or even if he receives wages in the United States, he is benefiting financially from his crime. Therefore, those benefits should be subject to confiscation to prevent him or her from benefiting from illegal behavior.
Any illegal immigrant is, by definition, a criminal. If the state grants him or her any benefits, or even if he receives wages in the United States, he is benefiting financially from his crime. Therefore, those benefits should be subject to confiscation to prevent him or her from benefiting from illegal behavior.
8
The anti-immigrant grass roots are simply dupes of the corporate political machine. Obama should be ashamed of his 2.5 million deportations. The immigrants I have known have been the best of us.
4
Most illegal immigrants consist of people who entered the US legally and over-stayed their visas. Also, I think illegal immigration from Mexico has dropped dramatically in reecnt years - more people leaving than coming. Not sure if that's just people coming through Mexico, or actual Mexicans.
Either way - it's all the result of the mess that global elitism, political corruption and one-percentism have caused. It's been going on for thousands of years.
Either way - it's all the result of the mess that global elitism, political corruption and one-percentism have caused. It's been going on for thousands of years.
10
Actually there's no question that the US is technically and financially capable of erecting a wall that would immediately stop the kind of illegal immigration that goes on now. But politically speaking, it's impossible.
7
No Trumpian wall will stop illegal immigration because way too many employers depend upon them way too much. That, mi amigos, is the fundamental truth of the matter. Unless and until that changes, the inexorable migration will continue.
3
[[José Manuel Talavera...mentioned his five children, including his 3-month-old daughter.]]
Five children is too many. Maybe rethink your family planning and its impact on your life prospects.
The Times moderator will probably censor my comment, but it's a simple fact that middle class people have fewer children than poor people and that is why poor people remain poor.
Five children is too many. Maybe rethink your family planning and its impact on your life prospects.
The Times moderator will probably censor my comment, but it's a simple fact that middle class people have fewer children than poor people and that is why poor people remain poor.
12
Don't deport the Mexicans until they finish building the wall for cash under the table.
8
Many analysts find Clinton's college tuition plan impractical. Still. it expresses a commitment to do what can be done. The same is true of the proposed wall. It may be impractical. but it expresses a commitment to what can be done.
3
A strong border might not stop 100% from getting in.
But if it stops 90%, that's far, far better than giving up and letting 100% in.
If a stronger border that cuts the inflow by 90% costs $50 billion initially and $5 billion per year to maintain it and patrol it, then I say worth every penny -- and more.
But if it stops 90%, that's far, far better than giving up and letting 100% in.
If a stronger border that cuts the inflow by 90% costs $50 billion initially and $5 billion per year to maintain it and patrol it, then I say worth every penny -- and more.
19
Perhaps it's time ro revise the Citizenship Clause (Section 1) of the 14th Amendment to no longer automatically grant citizenship to those born in the USA unless one of their parents is already a citizen.
14
What if they just built the wall North of Texas on the Texas Northern border, that might work in many ways.
3
Wall, we don't need no stinking walls.
Sorry for being silly, but anyone saying they going to build a wall between Mexico and the US or either deluded, ignorant, mental or just want to stir up the hupple heads to get elected.
Sorry for being silly, but anyone saying they going to build a wall between Mexico and the US or either deluded, ignorant, mental or just want to stir up the hupple heads to get elected.
5
I don't understand the rational that we should only endorse an approach, e.g. a border fence, if it completely solves the problem by itself. We don't use that approach in medicine, education or investment. We accept that vaccines are not 100 percent effective and yet we support their use. A border fence slows down illegal immigrants so that more can be captured by border patrol agents, particularly if there is a double row of fence. Of course it's expensive and needs regular maintence. Medicine and education are also difficult and expensive despite not being completely effective.
Illegal immigrants are usually low skilled and lower educated - it is expensive for this country to pay for their families education and health care and it brings down wages of US citizens who are lower educated and unskilled.
Illegal immigrants are preyed upon by criminals, smugglers of people and of drugs - encouraging illegal immigrants enables those criminal smugglers.
We should mandate E-verify so that only legal workers are employeed and we should increase penalties for those employers who pay illegal workers (it is not only illegal to hire these workers but paying them under the table without regard to social security taxes is tax fraud).
We in the United States are not responsible for poor people living outside of this country nor are we responsible for employers trying to save money by hiring and exploiting illegal workers. We have enough problems of our own.
Illegal immigrants are usually low skilled and lower educated - it is expensive for this country to pay for their families education and health care and it brings down wages of US citizens who are lower educated and unskilled.
Illegal immigrants are preyed upon by criminals, smugglers of people and of drugs - encouraging illegal immigrants enables those criminal smugglers.
We should mandate E-verify so that only legal workers are employeed and we should increase penalties for those employers who pay illegal workers (it is not only illegal to hire these workers but paying them under the table without regard to social security taxes is tax fraud).
We in the United States are not responsible for poor people living outside of this country nor are we responsible for employers trying to save money by hiring and exploiting illegal workers. We have enough problems of our own.
34
We are responsible for employers "trying to save money by hiring and exploiting illegal workers" if we don't enforce the laws. These employers aren't just paying lower wages they are avoiding paying taxes, and competing unfairly with the honest employers. The unfair competition is part of the problem that we have. Don't forget, Donald Trump himself has hired illegals (and then stiffed them as well) and also has many H1B employees. So important to keep his costs down so he and his wealthy patrons can line their pockets even more. Don't forget that when the rich avoid taxes, either our infrastructure deteriorates or those of us who do pay taxes have to pay for it. To top it all off, you and I are paying for the Secret Service protection he gets as a candidate!
10
"The wall is a fantasy."
It certainly is, as is Mr. Trump and his 'tremendous success"---not to mention his over- leveraged, non-existent wealth and fairy tale business acumen.
A large number of Americans need to get reacquainted with reality.
It certainly is, as is Mr. Trump and his 'tremendous success"---not to mention his over- leveraged, non-existent wealth and fairy tale business acumen.
A large number of Americans need to get reacquainted with reality.
8
Illegal immigration is a huge problem, legal and controlled immigration is not a problem. Immigrants from other countries must realize we have limited resources and that controlling the flow of immigrants is in our national interest, national security interest and within our rights as a sovereign country. This has nothing to do with nativism, stealing your way into another country is crime, it's rude too. We should get the pick of the best from other countries as a priority, then take the rest filling a yearly quota based on our countries economic needs. No public aide should be given to any immigrant you should know this coming into our country, there are no free rides in America. You must learn English it is the language of commerce, like it or not. No special advantages should be bestowed on immigrants because that will place a burden on our public systems. I would never be so arrogant as to come to another country and expect freebies and laws to change because I'm here now, that seems to be the attitude of many who come here. This is why vetting and rules must be enforced.
11
How many more immigrants can we accept? A million, 5 million, 20 million? Would we be selfish to state a limit?
10
Great article lauding a recidivist criminal. Mr. Talavera has broken the law twice at the start of the article, and is being praised for doing it again. This is the kind of people we need in this country, one's who have such a great respect for the law that they will keep breaking it just because they can.
That is the face of illegal immigration that is rarely presented; the recidivist lawbreaker. Why should I believe that someone with that mindset will suddenly become a law abiding person as soon as he steps across the border?
That is the face of illegal immigration that is rarely presented; the recidivist lawbreaker. Why should I believe that someone with that mindset will suddenly become a law abiding person as soon as he steps across the border?
13
Yes they can be law abiding people , without them there won't be any supermarket let along in the fields where the food planted and cattle raised . Who makes everything we need to survive !
2
H.L. Mencken wrote that "There is a solution to every complex problem, simple, plausible and wrong." The Great Wall of Trump is a right'wing fever dream. Other than flush billions of dollars down the drain, it will do nothing to stop undocumented immigration or drugs. Even if a 2000 mile wall was built, did we somehow forget there is the Gulf of Mexico to the east and the Pacific Ocean to the west. Block the land route and the flow will come by water.
7
Some might try to come on the open sea.
And of those who try, not all will succeed.
Most will not even try.
Crossing on the open sea is not as easy as crossing by land.
Further, the open sea is not a river.
For starters, they would need fresh water.
And the distances are greater -- so still more fresh water needed,
-- not to mention other supplies.
And the waves are higher.
And the winds stronger.
And the depths far deeper -- no wading.
And the landmarks are fewer.
The sea bottom is uneven, and unmarked.
And then, on the Pacific side, there are tides -- twice a day -- each direction --twice in and twice out.
Buena suerte!
And of those who try, not all will succeed.
Most will not even try.
Crossing on the open sea is not as easy as crossing by land.
Further, the open sea is not a river.
For starters, they would need fresh water.
And the distances are greater -- so still more fresh water needed,
-- not to mention other supplies.
And the waves are higher.
And the winds stronger.
And the depths far deeper -- no wading.
And the landmarks are fewer.
The sea bottom is uneven, and unmarked.
And then, on the Pacific side, there are tides -- twice a day -- each direction --twice in and twice out.
Buena suerte!
1
Ed Ashurst has the right idea "deploy Navy SEALs along the border, arm them with AR-15 rifles, and give them orders to shoot anyone who crossed".
However, our leadership is misguided. They commiserate over the death of a few migrants that should not have been here to begin with and generate the pity that has prevented a serious solution. This is the same situation that precipatated the massive movement of interlopers into Europe.
"For a millennium Constantinople was the seat of a thriving empire. It was conquered by Muslims in 1453 and renamed Istanbul.If present trends continue, in some European countries fully half of the population will be Muslim not long after mid-century. At some point sharia will be introduced. Historical legal structures, such as British common law and the Code Napoleon, will give way to the law of the Qu’ran. Year by year the Christian minority will become ever more isolated. There need not be much overt persecution. An effete population will be disinclined to resist the changes." Karl Keating.
Edgar Rice Burroughs(Tarzan) in his 1915 book "Beyond Thirty" describes the downfall of Europe and the emergence of an Islamic Caliphate.
Do you think that this could not happen here? The apathy, the lack of strong leadership the apologetic nature of our current administration set the stage for this exact kind of capitulation. Surrender. First of our borders, then of our independence and finally our freedoms.
The word “Islam” means submission or surrender
However, our leadership is misguided. They commiserate over the death of a few migrants that should not have been here to begin with and generate the pity that has prevented a serious solution. This is the same situation that precipatated the massive movement of interlopers into Europe.
"For a millennium Constantinople was the seat of a thriving empire. It was conquered by Muslims in 1453 and renamed Istanbul.If present trends continue, in some European countries fully half of the population will be Muslim not long after mid-century. At some point sharia will be introduced. Historical legal structures, such as British common law and the Code Napoleon, will give way to the law of the Qu’ran. Year by year the Christian minority will become ever more isolated. There need not be much overt persecution. An effete population will be disinclined to resist the changes." Karl Keating.
Edgar Rice Burroughs(Tarzan) in his 1915 book "Beyond Thirty" describes the downfall of Europe and the emergence of an Islamic Caliphate.
Do you think that this could not happen here? The apathy, the lack of strong leadership the apologetic nature of our current administration set the stage for this exact kind of capitulation. Surrender. First of our borders, then of our independence and finally our freedoms.
The word “Islam” means submission or surrender
7
Apparently, it's OK with you that Navy Seals shoot to kill women and children.
Are you serious?
Are you serious?
11
Historically the effectiveness of walls is spotty at best. Three of the most famous (Hadrian's, Great Wall of China, and Berlin) were effective for only a short while. These were walls between enemies. Nobody has, or should, erect walls between friends.
6
"Nobody has, or should, erect walls between friends." Really? I would not want my dog trashing my neighbors' yards, nor their kids picking my pomegranates. A fence makes sense in my case. And I'd be happy to deny entry in the US to wealthy Mexican business people, cops and politicians until Mexico fixes its corruption, crime and impunity crises.
9
The Berlin wall was was built to keep civilians in.
A wall or fence on the Mexican border will be built to keep people in.
The difference is fundamental: in versus out.
Hadrian's Wall and the Great Wall were breached by armies, not by civilians --
armies that were more than a match for the armies defending the walls.
The Mexican army is not going to try to breach a wall on our southern border --
and even if it foolishly tried, it is nowhere close to a match for the US forces on this side.
Likewise, for all the fearsome power of the "drug smugglers", they are not a match for the US forces on this side. They may be able to impose force on drug camels. But they will not be able to keep US forces away from themselves or their drug drug -- nor from illegal border crossers. Against US forces, they can succeed only by stealth, and stealth is far, far easier for them where there is no wall or fence than where there is a wall or fence.
A wall or fence on the Mexican border will be built to keep people in.
The difference is fundamental: in versus out.
Hadrian's Wall and the Great Wall were breached by armies, not by civilians --
armies that were more than a match for the armies defending the walls.
The Mexican army is not going to try to breach a wall on our southern border --
and even if it foolishly tried, it is nowhere close to a match for the US forces on this side.
Likewise, for all the fearsome power of the "drug smugglers", they are not a match for the US forces on this side. They may be able to impose force on drug camels. But they will not be able to keep US forces away from themselves or their drug drug -- nor from illegal border crossers. Against US forces, they can succeed only by stealth, and stealth is far, far easier for them where there is no wall or fence than where there is a wall or fence.
2
No wall is going to stop a man's will to survive and feed his family. You build a wall, he'll dig a tunnel. You block the tunnel, he'll cross the ocean. The only "wall" that will work is the one that finds a solution to the root of the problem. Perhaps employers in the US should stop hiring illegal immigrants, but then, who is going to do the jobs no one wants to do. Maybe companies can build manufacturing plants in Mexico, but will Americans want to pay more for smartphones made in Mexico or cheaper ones made in China?
53
No one wants to do those jobs at those wages. Perhaps if that man would stop having five kids he wouldn't need to worry about feeding so much.
10
Americans will do those jobs. They won't do them for five bucks an hour. Why on earth is this is Times pick? Are we supposed to be grateful that some foolish man in Honduras has decided to have five kids and then expects us to let him here to work off the books so he can feed his over large litter? Why not tell him to use birth control rather than overpopulate the planet?
11
Not all would-be border crossers are going to dig a tunnel or cross the ocean.
Far from it. Sure, some will try. But many will be deterred. And not all those who try will succeed.
A strong border "wall" (whether actual wall or a fence or various electronic devices or various combinations, depending on terrain) coupled with strong patrol patrol and coast control can stop 90% or 95%. That's far, far better than giving up and letting 100% get in.
Also, in the interior, set up a mandatory, nationwide, uniform, digital, biometric ID system for all jobs -- and for all government benefits and licenses -- and all banking accounts and banking transactions -- instead of the current cumbersome, complicated hodgepodge of dozens of different combinations of paper proofs of ID and work authorization.
Far from it. Sure, some will try. But many will be deterred. And not all those who try will succeed.
A strong border "wall" (whether actual wall or a fence or various electronic devices or various combinations, depending on terrain) coupled with strong patrol patrol and coast control can stop 90% or 95%. That's far, far better than giving up and letting 100% get in.
Also, in the interior, set up a mandatory, nationwide, uniform, digital, biometric ID system for all jobs -- and for all government benefits and licenses -- and all banking accounts and banking transactions -- instead of the current cumbersome, complicated hodgepodge of dozens of different combinations of paper proofs of ID and work authorization.
10
Why doesn't the NYT investigate all those many US firms who illegally employ illegal immigrant workers? For example, just like one Donald Trump did on Trump Tower.
Funny that. It's the one thing that the NYT Board, Clinton and Trump have in common — rich business owners illegally employing illegal workers seems to be OK in all their books,
Funny that. It's the one thing that the NYT Board, Clinton and Trump have in common — rich business owners illegally employing illegal workers seems to be OK in all their books,
21
In a piece as thorough as this which even correctly proclaims "Acorss the globe, wall are going up" and cites the Hungarian wall as exhibit one, I would have thought a mention of the Israeli wall wouldn't have been all that out of place. I wonder why it was left out.
16
The Berlin Wall was very effective for decades. And may very well be implemented again if something isn't done by world nations to end the CAUSE of mass migrations. To ignore the source, the reason, is to determine the future economic fate of many nations. PERIOD!
9
That was for keeping people IN not OUT!!
11
A Wall right down the middle of the Rio Grande River? Mariscal Canyon, Boquillas Canyon, and Santa Elena Canyon in Big Bend National Park, TX, begs to differ, and so do those like me who cherish these beautiful wonders of our world. What ever world the "Build the Wall" Trump supporters live in, it's not our world.
3
No, not right down the middle of the Rio Grande.
Instead, 100 feet or so this side of the left bank.
The space between the wall and the mid-stream remains U.S. territory:
You and other American nature lovers will be free to enjoy that space at will --
along with however many thousands of Mexicans you find there --
and the US border patrol will be free to patrol that space to knock down and smash ladders, scaffolds and devices and supplies being stockpiled by some of those Mexicans to try to climb the wall and the US border patrol will be free to bulldoze tunnel mouths in that space for tunnels being dug to try to cross under the wall.
Instead, 100 feet or so this side of the left bank.
The space between the wall and the mid-stream remains U.S. territory:
You and other American nature lovers will be free to enjoy that space at will --
along with however many thousands of Mexicans you find there --
and the US border patrol will be free to patrol that space to knock down and smash ladders, scaffolds and devices and supplies being stockpiled by some of those Mexicans to try to climb the wall and the US border patrol will be free to bulldoze tunnel mouths in that space for tunnels being dug to try to cross under the wall.
4
These photos are gorgeous. And great story. But the photos tell a story of their own.
2
I don't care about the wall. Stop trying to write articles to liberals to prepare them for open borders.
If you read the comment threads to all these articles, you realize that NYT commenters, some of the most liberals commenters on earth, want REAL comprehensive immigration reform.
The American people are not idiots. We know that illegal immigration provides a large uncompetitive labor pool that affects the wages and jobs that legal immigrants and citizens can have. Try to hire a drywall crew that doesn't have illegal immigrants. That job used to pay as well as a plumber or electrician, now the only person that makes money is the legal immigrant who is in charge of all the illegal immigrants.
We want three things.
1. Secure our borders. We don't need a wall, we need high tech support and more enforcement in order to prevent our borders from being a sieve.
2. Amnesty everyone here. We know Donald is crazy. We realize the people here need to be allowed a path to citizenship, but after that we DON'T WANT another 12 million illegal immigrants to be able to walk across the border.
3. Make legal immigration easier, but try to allow in people who are refugees or have skills that are useful.
4. Make e-verify the law of the land, and enforce it.
5. Put people who hire illegal immigrants in jail.
The problem is that no party has these values. Hillary loves open borders and unfettered immigration. Donald wants to deport 12 million people. Both unacceptable.
If you read the comment threads to all these articles, you realize that NYT commenters, some of the most liberals commenters on earth, want REAL comprehensive immigration reform.
The American people are not idiots. We know that illegal immigration provides a large uncompetitive labor pool that affects the wages and jobs that legal immigrants and citizens can have. Try to hire a drywall crew that doesn't have illegal immigrants. That job used to pay as well as a plumber or electrician, now the only person that makes money is the legal immigrant who is in charge of all the illegal immigrants.
We want three things.
1. Secure our borders. We don't need a wall, we need high tech support and more enforcement in order to prevent our borders from being a sieve.
2. Amnesty everyone here. We know Donald is crazy. We realize the people here need to be allowed a path to citizenship, but after that we DON'T WANT another 12 million illegal immigrants to be able to walk across the border.
3. Make legal immigration easier, but try to allow in people who are refugees or have skills that are useful.
4. Make e-verify the law of the land, and enforce it.
5. Put people who hire illegal immigrants in jail.
The problem is that no party has these values. Hillary loves open borders and unfettered immigration. Donald wants to deport 12 million people. Both unacceptable.
9
everyone wants a simple solution to a very complex problem. your ideas are the most comprehensive I've heard in a long while
1
A friend, who is very conservative, was complaining last year about illegal immigrants. At the time he was having the roof of his home replaced. I asked if he had requested a crew that was all US citizens. He looked down as he said no, he did not ask about the status of the (Spanish speaking) work crew.
7
Why should he? He's playing within the parameters of a system that he didn't set up. And his small business contractor is stuck with the same system.
Just like a businessman like Warren Buffet who constantly criticizes the tax code where he pays less % than his secretary, he doesn't voluntarily pay extra. He plays by the system.
How about you?
Just like a businessman like Warren Buffet who constantly criticizes the tax code where he pays less % than his secretary, he doesn't voluntarily pay extra. He plays by the system.
How about you?
7
One missing topic in this debate is the fact that most illegal immigrants come to the U.S. legally, usually on a tourist visa, and overstay. The U.S. has no method of tracking people exiting the country, nor tracking down people who have overstayed their visas.
7
A friend is on a visa in Mexico. One tiny error, and one day after error was discovered, the Mexican government paid her a call. Their demand was that she fix and pay-- immediately. No leniency, no credit for her being a good person "these are our rules--- follow them." I respect Mexico for this protection of sovereignty.
11
Yes, let's track the visa overstays.
BTW -- half of all visa overstays are Latin Americans -- that's in addition to the Latin Americans who are virtually 100% of the illegal border crossers.
BTW -- half of all visa overstays are Latin Americans -- that's in addition to the Latin Americans who are virtually 100% of the illegal border crossers.
9
"The Wall" is a reality which partially borders a fantasy.
The wall does not stop smugglers, narcotraficantes and the most determined. But it slows them down and deters the undecided.
As the enforcement stepped up, illegal immigration showed a dramatic dip. Causation, not correlation.
As the enforcement stepped up, illegal immigration showed a dramatic dip. Causation, not correlation.
8
Walls are not new.
Since the dawn of history nature has had mighty walls to prevent man moving from one side to another. Mountains, rivers, oceans. Man scaled them with ease.
Man-made walls are a piece of cake.
Since the dawn of history nature has had mighty walls to prevent man moving from one side to another. Mountains, rivers, oceans. Man scaled them with ease.
Man-made walls are a piece of cake.
5
Walls are the future. But they are post-military walls; they are economic walls.
From gated communities to Trumpian fantasies, walls are now all about keeping the poor and the brutalized from escaping their vast ghettos.
In late capitalism, the only enemy left is the poor. A grim future.
From gated communities to Trumpian fantasies, walls are now all about keeping the poor and the brutalized from escaping their vast ghettos.
In late capitalism, the only enemy left is the poor. A grim future.
6
It's a wall and laws. My father in law worked as a union meat packing plant butcher. He could provide a middle class existence for his family of five. Now those meat packing plants are staffed with non union illegal immigrants. They say the spotted they are forced to work at are unendurable. I've read books that describe some workers being paralyzed because they work in a cloud of brain and nerve tissue. Breathing that in causes an autoimmune reaction that damages the workers central nervous system.
California has a lot of illegal immigrants working in construction, landscaping, child care and auto repair. A person working without paying taxes enjoys an income nearly twice that of people paying taxes. So the children of many Americans end up in the poorly paid, tax paying jobs and the illegal immigrants end up in the untaxed trade, rewarding lawbreaking employers who seek them if to pay on a cash basis. Want asbestos abated or lead paint removed? Hire some illegals as contractors and save on protective equipment.
California has a lot of illegal immigrants working in construction, landscaping, child care and auto repair. A person working without paying taxes enjoys an income nearly twice that of people paying taxes. So the children of many Americans end up in the poorly paid, tax paying jobs and the illegal immigrants end up in the untaxed trade, rewarding lawbreaking employers who seek them if to pay on a cash basis. Want asbestos abated or lead paint removed? Hire some illegals as contractors and save on protective equipment.
13
Open the boarder to all who register at the boarder. Let everyone in. Immigration is good for the economy; good for cultural diversity. Just have one simple rule: Non-citizens can not be eligible for welfare or unemployment compensation; and they must observe all laws subject to imprisonment and then deportation
2
The US has no visa system for low-skilled labor while the demand for it seems unquenchable. The migrants who are looking for work to support their families are not to blame. Neither are their employers who need these people to keep their business afloat. The problem lies with the politicians and their like-minded constituents who think the only solution is walls and enforcement ($18 billion a year currently). They are the ones blocking any kind of meaningful immigration reform to get the situation under control.
1
If and when we have a "visa system" for low-skill workers,
it needs to have strict no-nonsense limits and requirements:
work authorization for a specified limited time only,
with the authorization for entry in to the US limited to the worker only --
-- not his family -- the family stays back in the home country.
He leaves periodically to visit them there.
To get the visa, a US employer has to apply for the visa,
the visa needs to restrict allowed work to work for that employer,
and in the application the employer has to guarantee his wages and health insurance and income and payroll taxes,
and to guarantee his departure when the visa authorization expires,
and to secure the employer's guarantees and obligations,
the employer has to deposit $100,000, with the U.S. Treasury
-- in cash, in advance --
refundable only 6 months after all wages and taxes and health claims are paid and the employee has made final departure and surrendered the visa.
To get the employee's co-operation to depart, the employer has the right to withhold 20% of wages until after final departure and surrender of the visa, payable only at a bank in the home country.
it needs to have strict no-nonsense limits and requirements:
work authorization for a specified limited time only,
with the authorization for entry in to the US limited to the worker only --
-- not his family -- the family stays back in the home country.
He leaves periodically to visit them there.
To get the visa, a US employer has to apply for the visa,
the visa needs to restrict allowed work to work for that employer,
and in the application the employer has to guarantee his wages and health insurance and income and payroll taxes,
and to guarantee his departure when the visa authorization expires,
and to secure the employer's guarantees and obligations,
the employer has to deposit $100,000, with the U.S. Treasury
-- in cash, in advance --
refundable only 6 months after all wages and taxes and health claims are paid and the employee has made final departure and surrendered the visa.
To get the employee's co-operation to depart, the employer has the right to withhold 20% of wages until after final departure and surrender of the visa, payable only at a bank in the home country.
2
We do not know how many are here illegally. The commonly cited 11 - 12 million figure depends on self-reporting to the Census Bureau. Even the Bureau questions its own numbers. See the paper, on its web site, by Eric B. Jensen, Renuka Bhaskar, and Melissa Scopilliti.
Anti-illegal immigrant groups say the number is 15 to 30 million or more.
An illegal immigrant who gains legal status is allowed to legally bring in a spouse, any children under 18, and any unmarried children above 18. (Most illegal immigrants hail from Mexico and Central America where it is not uncommon to marry by age 14. So children who are under 18 could bring in their own spouses and children.)
If an illegal immigrant becomes a citizen, he or she could also bring in their parents.
Consequently, just legalizing the people who are now here illegally, would result in untold numbers of uneducated, low-skilled people moving here legally.
Anti-illegal immigrant groups say the number is 15 to 30 million or more.
An illegal immigrant who gains legal status is allowed to legally bring in a spouse, any children under 18, and any unmarried children above 18. (Most illegal immigrants hail from Mexico and Central America where it is not uncommon to marry by age 14. So children who are under 18 could bring in their own spouses and children.)
If an illegal immigrant becomes a citizen, he or she could also bring in their parents.
Consequently, just legalizing the people who are now here illegally, would result in untold numbers of uneducated, low-skilled people moving here legally.
16
Until there is an end to iniquity, there will be people desperate enough to escape where they were born to a place where they think they will have a chance at a better life, no matter the barriers put between them and their longed-for "promised land". We should be working to end poverty, war, intolerance, and environmental disaster around the world, if we want to stem the flow of illegal immigration and refugees. Making choices as consumers, workers, business owners, investors, and voters that are based on principles of environmental stewardship and humanitarianism are the key to obtaining peace and security -- fences, walls, arms, violence, and hate will only make life worse for all of us.
2
Ed Ashurst has the right idea "deploy Navy SEALs along the border, arm them with AR-15 rifles, and give them orders to shoot anyone who crossed".
However, our leadership is misguided. They commiserate over the death of a few migrants that should not have been here to begin with and generate the pity that has prevented a serious solution. This is the same situation that precipatated the massive movement of interlopers into Europe.
"For a millennium Constantinople was the seat of a thriving empire. It was conquered by Muslims in 1453 and renamed Istanbul.If present trends continue, in some European countries fully half of the population will be Muslim not long after mid-century. At some point sharia will be introduced. Historical legal structures, such as British common law and the Code Napoleon, will give way to the law of the Qu’ran. Year by year the Christian minority will become ever more isolated. There need not be much overt persecution. An effete population will be disinclined to resist the changes." Karl Keating.
Edgar Rice Burroughs in his 1915 book " Beyond Thirty " describes the downfall of Europe and the emergence of an Islamic Caliphate.
Do you think that this could not happen here? The apathy, the lack of strong leadership the apologetic nature of our current administration set the stage for this exact kind of capitulation. Surrender. First of our borders, then of our independence and finally our freedoms.
The word “Islam” means submission or surrender
However, our leadership is misguided. They commiserate over the death of a few migrants that should not have been here to begin with and generate the pity that has prevented a serious solution. This is the same situation that precipatated the massive movement of interlopers into Europe.
"For a millennium Constantinople was the seat of a thriving empire. It was conquered by Muslims in 1453 and renamed Istanbul.If present trends continue, in some European countries fully half of the population will be Muslim not long after mid-century. At some point sharia will be introduced. Historical legal structures, such as British common law and the Code Napoleon, will give way to the law of the Qu’ran. Year by year the Christian minority will become ever more isolated. There need not be much overt persecution. An effete population will be disinclined to resist the changes." Karl Keating.
Edgar Rice Burroughs in his 1915 book " Beyond Thirty " describes the downfall of Europe and the emergence of an Islamic Caliphate.
Do you think that this could not happen here? The apathy, the lack of strong leadership the apologetic nature of our current administration set the stage for this exact kind of capitulation. Surrender. First of our borders, then of our independence and finally our freedoms.
The word “Islam” means submission or surrender
5
Hmm.. just reminder, our migrants from the south are Catholics or Evangelical Christians. Nary a muslim in the bunch. If Sharia law comes our way (most unlikely-- ever-- unless it is a Christian fundamentalist version of same) it will not be from Mexico or Latin America. Just sayin'.
5
This is such a ridiculous topic on all levels. If anyone really wanted to stop undocumented workers the government would simply have to impose stiff penalties for companies who hired those workers. Painful enough to encourage companies to find Americans to fill those jobs.
Voila, Problem solved.
Of course no one on either side ever mentions the logical options because they don't want to stop them. Business loves them. And Big Business owns the government.
Voila, Problem solved.
Of course no one on either side ever mentions the logical options because they don't want to stop them. Business loves them. And Big Business owns the government.
15
This is a thoughtful and balanced article on the complexities around immigration. History is littered with failed walls along with many of the governments that invested so much effort and treasure into them. Walls are always a leading indicator of weakness and impending decline.
Just look to the Ming dynasty, the poster child for feckless wall building. The Ming began their reign with the lion's share of global GDP and an outlook that embraced their neighbors and the world at large. They were afraid and built a wall and cut off trade and immigration. The economy stagnated and they were overthrown by barbarians from outside the wall who simply went around it or through it.
Walls are for cowards who fear what the world will do to them and panic at the thought that their world will change. People with courage and the strength of their convictions build bridges and engage the world straight on.
Just look to the Ming dynasty, the poster child for feckless wall building. The Ming began their reign with the lion's share of global GDP and an outlook that embraced their neighbors and the world at large. They were afraid and built a wall and cut off trade and immigration. The economy stagnated and they were overthrown by barbarians from outside the wall who simply went around it or through it.
Walls are for cowards who fear what the world will do to them and panic at the thought that their world will change. People with courage and the strength of their convictions build bridges and engage the world straight on.
2
Given how our political battle lines are currently drawn, it's fair to assume that, more often than not, those who advocate for "the wall" or similarly strict immigration measures are also wary of gun control efforts.
How interesting, then, that the logic behind so many of those partisans' comments here -- "Nobody thinks it'll stop it all, but it'll certainly stop a lot of it!" -- applies only to looming tsunami of illegal immigration but not the silly little nuisance of gun violence in our communities. I wonder why that is.
How interesting, then, that the logic behind so many of those partisans' comments here -- "Nobody thinks it'll stop it all, but it'll certainly stop a lot of it!" -- applies only to looming tsunami of illegal immigration but not the silly little nuisance of gun violence in our communities. I wonder why that is.
4
This summer I drove from Dallas to Los Angeles, with stops in Las Cruces, NM, and Calexico, CA. At many points on that journey, going to Mexico was as easy as taking the next highway exit. As I drove along, relishing the landscape, building a wall repeatedly struck me as highly improbable, if not impossible, and entirely foolish.
In Calexico, which abuts Mexicali, a tall, steel fence separates Mexican backyards from their Californian counterparts. That fence is about as close as we’ll get to Donnie’s wall. Seeing the reality of such a thing, and the resources required to maintain and secure that fence, made it very clear to me that building a wall does nothing to resolve the national debate around immigration. Donnie's "wall" rhetoric served only to build his brand.
In Calexico, which abuts Mexicali, a tall, steel fence separates Mexican backyards from their Californian counterparts. That fence is about as close as we’ll get to Donnie’s wall. Seeing the reality of such a thing, and the resources required to maintain and secure that fence, made it very clear to me that building a wall does nothing to resolve the national debate around immigration. Donnie's "wall" rhetoric served only to build his brand.
3
If a wall is needed to protect American workers, it needs to be a high as the loftiest telecommunications sattelite. Over the course of the past 20 years, corporations have off-shored almost any work that can be performed via telecommunications. Thousands, if not millions, of jobs that involve accounting, customer call centers and computer software developments can now be done by cheaper overseas labor. It isn't just manufacturing that has been impacted by globalization. False credentials add to this problem as so many corporations claim we have a shortage of qualified STEM educated workers. These same companies have two sets of standards: one very stringent here; the other very lax overseas where they can find workers for pennies on the dollar of what they'd compensate us here. No wall, no matter how high, is going to stop this bleeding.
7
Israel has an effective border wall of about 440 miles. Yes, it is penetrable, but observation, detection, and identification/classification setup associated with the wall pinpoints intruders and enables their arrest.
If there is a will, there is a way.
Israel has a population of less than 3% of what the U.S. has, yet manages an effective wall, the length of which is 22% of the U.S.-Mexico border.
p.s. Many good comments on other control methods, such as verification by employers.
If there is a will, there is a way.
Israel has a population of less than 3% of what the U.S. has, yet manages an effective wall, the length of which is 22% of the U.S.-Mexico border.
p.s. Many good comments on other control methods, such as verification by employers.
8
As long as there are jobs that illegal immigrants can do they will continue to come. They come here for economic reasons and because they are persecuted. The economic reasons are no less urgent than the reasons for the persecution: both sets want to have a good life or to enable their families to have a good life back home. The only real way to keep illegal immigrants out is to fine the businesses that knowingly hire them. Doing so might solve the problem of illegal immigrants who come here for the money. But it won't stop those who come here because their homes aren't safe.
5
One subject rarely touched on is the drugs that come over the border. The main supply of heroin in the US comes from Mexico. Between 2000 and 2014, there was a six-fold increase in the number of deaths due to heroin overdoses, which are now over 10,000 a year.
A few weeks ago, NY's Organized Crime Task Force made the largest seizure of heroin in its 46-year history: 33 kilos, along with 2 kilos of fentanyl. 25 people were arrested, from New York, New Jersey, Massahcusetts, Pennsylvania, and Arizona.
The drugs were smuggled in from Mexico, and the group has tied to the Sinaloa Cartel.
If a wall helps to keep heroin out of the US, it will be a good investment.
A few weeks ago, NY's Organized Crime Task Force made the largest seizure of heroin in its 46-year history: 33 kilos, along with 2 kilos of fentanyl. 25 people were arrested, from New York, New Jersey, Massahcusetts, Pennsylvania, and Arizona.
The drugs were smuggled in from Mexico, and the group has tied to the Sinaloa Cartel.
If a wall helps to keep heroin out of the US, it will be a good investment.
17
If Americans would stop buying drugs, there would be no suppliers. Same goes for illegal immigrants. If American patriots didn't hire them they would have no incentive to come to the USA.
As long as there is a demand there will be a supply, one way or the other. All the wall will do is lead to better smugglers and more profit for the ones that survive and industrialise the process. This is what has happened to illegal immigration. What was once individuals walking across the border is now an industry linked with the drug trade. How is that progress?
As long as there is a demand there will be a supply, one way or the other. All the wall will do is lead to better smugglers and more profit for the ones that survive and industrialise the process. This is what has happened to illegal immigration. What was once individuals walking across the border is now an industry linked with the drug trade. How is that progress?
4
Institute a national identity card with technological security enhancements that is required to be able to work in the USA. Create laws with severe penalties for hiring anyone without national identity card verification. Without the ability to work here, illegal immigrants will self-deport and stop coming here. Many of those illegal Mexican immigrants are already self-deporting as jobs have become less inviting. We'll see how serious those Republicans are about stopping illegal immigration by eliminating their cheap labor with an impenetrable virtual wall.
21
Under NAFTA, some people have won and others have lost. It might have been possible to help Americans who lost under NAFTA had we been able to focus all of our resources on them. But, we have also been expected to help the Mexicans who lost. They slipped into our country illegally, They overload our schools and government programs.
The Mexican culture has traditionally placed more value on having many children than on educating them. Today, the average Mexican adult has no more than a 6th grade education. In the U.S., Hispanics lead the country in the teenage birth rate and the high school drop-out rate. This is despite all levels of our government pouring extra money into their education. Our country also pays for their medical care, social services, court and correctional services, and so on. If we did not have to subsidize the Mexicans who lost under NAFTA, we could focus on helping our own people.
Most Americans are unaware of the wealth in Mexico. If we sent home its citizens, who have come here illegally, they could organize to demand more from their own government instead of making demands of our government.
The Mexican culture has traditionally placed more value on having many children than on educating them. Today, the average Mexican adult has no more than a 6th grade education. In the U.S., Hispanics lead the country in the teenage birth rate and the high school drop-out rate. This is despite all levels of our government pouring extra money into their education. Our country also pays for their medical care, social services, court and correctional services, and so on. If we did not have to subsidize the Mexicans who lost under NAFTA, we could focus on helping our own people.
Most Americans are unaware of the wealth in Mexico. If we sent home its citizens, who have come here illegally, they could organize to demand more from their own government instead of making demands of our government.
28
So, the photo of the wall is a fantasy? What appears to be there isn't there? The wall isn't the fantasy. American control of this region is the fantasy.
5
Make up your mind America. You want or you dont want Imges, give immigrants - legal or illegal. You cant keep taking their labor and services pay them lower wages, give no rights and then publicly lament their presence and taking away jobs or whatever.
21st century Slavery. Even with legals and H1Bs. You know it.
21st century Slavery. Even with legals and H1Bs. You know it.
5
The problem is the elites - of both parties - want immigrants - both legal and illegal - to continue to suppress wages.
No kidding, it's a bad bargain for current U.S. citizen workers, but a grand one for our corporate overlords, thus is continues.
Overall U.S. citizens want less legal and illegal immigration - but the corporate media is desperate to obscure this.
No kidding, it's a bad bargain for current U.S. citizen workers, but a grand one for our corporate overlords, thus is continues.
Overall U.S. citizens want less legal and illegal immigration - but the corporate media is desperate to obscure this.
21
I think Trump is dangerous and his supporters are nuts. However, the attempt by corporate media and sadly by my own Democratic party to paint people who are anti-illegal immigration; who support enforcement of e-verification; and are in favor of very limited legal immigration-- as racists, is just plain wrong. Some are, many are not. Some believe the most important task of the federal government is to protect our borders; some want to retain English as the single language of our country; some see unfettered immigration as a matter of economic injustice. Those viewpoints don't make a person a crazy bigot!
6
America can impose whatever limits and requirements onto immigrants that America chooses.
If the those wanting to immigrate do not like those limits and requirements, they can stay home.
The American government and American taxpayer has zero obligations to them for whatever claims they might have against their employers or other companies or individuals here or elsewhere.
If the those wanting to immigrate do not like those limits and requirements, they can stay home.
The American government and American taxpayer has zero obligations to them for whatever claims they might have against their employers or other companies or individuals here or elsewhere.
1
Here is a solution to the problem: Pay manual laborers living wages, with benefits. Ensure they work in safe environments.
How will that help? Because right now illegal immigrants are desperate enough to take jobs legal citizens won't. Read the recent endorsement of Hillary Clinton in The Idaho Statesman (not exactly a liberal publication) to see what I'm talking about. If citizens were filling these jobs, there wouldn't be incentive to cross the border illegally.
Illegal immigration goes down, unemployment goes down, border patrol costs go down, drug smugglers have to find new mules. Seems like a win for everyone.
How will that help? Because right now illegal immigrants are desperate enough to take jobs legal citizens won't. Read the recent endorsement of Hillary Clinton in The Idaho Statesman (not exactly a liberal publication) to see what I'm talking about. If citizens were filling these jobs, there wouldn't be incentive to cross the border illegally.
Illegal immigration goes down, unemployment goes down, border patrol costs go down, drug smugglers have to find new mules. Seems like a win for everyone.
8
It isn't a win for the employers who can rely on desperate immigrants who will toil for substandard wages.
It isn't a win for anyone who can buy fruit and vegetables at the local chain grocery store for low prices that reflect the cost savings enjoyed by reliance on substandard immigrant wages and benefits. The hotelier who underpays housekeeping and kitchen staff. The contractor who hires nonunion immigrant labor.
The Donald Trump who hired undocumented Polish laborers to tear down Bonwit Teller, and who no doubt has 'illegals' toiling in kitchens and laundries and swabbing commodes for him right this minute. They are invisible to him, and after all, it's perfectly acceptable because 'everybody else does it.' Same excuse for his Made in China, Trump- branded claptrap: it's profitable so I have to do it, I have no choice, I'd be foolish not to.
We all benefit from the exploitation of desperate people who come here hoping for a better, safer life, with or without 'proper documentation,' just as we profit from low wage labor elsewhere in the world.
And at the same time, millions of our citizens decry our exploited immigrants as 'parasites' and 'welfare cheats' who are also, inconsistently, 'stealing our jobs.' Never mind the illogic of all of that, we now have a scapegoat, a ready target for our own disaffected, inarticulate, angry and ill-educated mob.
Sadly, it has come to this.
It isn't a win for anyone who can buy fruit and vegetables at the local chain grocery store for low prices that reflect the cost savings enjoyed by reliance on substandard immigrant wages and benefits. The hotelier who underpays housekeeping and kitchen staff. The contractor who hires nonunion immigrant labor.
The Donald Trump who hired undocumented Polish laborers to tear down Bonwit Teller, and who no doubt has 'illegals' toiling in kitchens and laundries and swabbing commodes for him right this minute. They are invisible to him, and after all, it's perfectly acceptable because 'everybody else does it.' Same excuse for his Made in China, Trump- branded claptrap: it's profitable so I have to do it, I have no choice, I'd be foolish not to.
We all benefit from the exploitation of desperate people who come here hoping for a better, safer life, with or without 'proper documentation,' just as we profit from low wage labor elsewhere in the world.
And at the same time, millions of our citizens decry our exploited immigrants as 'parasites' and 'welfare cheats' who are also, inconsistently, 'stealing our jobs.' Never mind the illogic of all of that, we now have a scapegoat, a ready target for our own disaffected, inarticulate, angry and ill-educated mob.
Sadly, it has come to this.
4
One is hardly ugly an inarticulate because we want to enforce our laws and not allow an unskilled Honduran and his five kids to come here.
2
The net influx of undocumented in the US is negative. More leave than come.
Personally, I welcome people willing to risk so much, work so hard, endure the abuse they do just for the chance of the American dream. It is many of the over privileged soft children of the wealthy we could do without.
Personally, I welcome people willing to risk so much, work so hard, endure the abuse they do just for the chance of the American dream. It is many of the over privileged soft children of the wealthy we could do without.
4
The supposed net negative outflow is very recent and not likely to remain long-lasting.
Moreover, it is puny (around 100,000 annually) compared with total inflows and outflows (several million in each direction). Small changes in the total inflow or outflow can dramatically change the net number.
Finally, and most telling, is that the study producing that widely trumped net outflow "news" used data for the inflow that came from the U.S. government that counted only foreign-born people coming in.
In contrast, the data for the outflow came from the Mexican government and measured not only persons born outside the U.S. but also persons born inside the U.S. -- i.e it included the U.S. citizen anchor babies of the illegal immigrants -- who of course were not even alive when the illegal immigrants entered the USA.
And, of course, that fact, that the measured outflow counted not only illegal immigrants returning to Mexico but also their anchor baby children born in the U.S. gives the lie to the widely-trumpeted lament that the U.S. immigration "system" is somehow so cruel and harsh as to "separate families": the illegal immigrant families that leave are not split up -- they leave together, to Mexico.
Moreover, it is puny (around 100,000 annually) compared with total inflows and outflows (several million in each direction). Small changes in the total inflow or outflow can dramatically change the net number.
Finally, and most telling, is that the study producing that widely trumped net outflow "news" used data for the inflow that came from the U.S. government that counted only foreign-born people coming in.
In contrast, the data for the outflow came from the Mexican government and measured not only persons born outside the U.S. but also persons born inside the U.S. -- i.e it included the U.S. citizen anchor babies of the illegal immigrants -- who of course were not even alive when the illegal immigrants entered the USA.
And, of course, that fact, that the measured outflow counted not only illegal immigrants returning to Mexico but also their anchor baby children born in the U.S. gives the lie to the widely-trumpeted lament that the U.S. immigration "system" is somehow so cruel and harsh as to "separate families": the illegal immigrant families that leave are not split up -- they leave together, to Mexico.
1
What an insightful, well written article! Thank you for showing the different faces of the border and the real problems and worries they all confront: from the ranchers to the immigrants. I just wish Donald Trump and his supporters took the time (or even have the wish) to understand that this is a HUMANITARIAN crisis that goes beyond the Mexican borders. As this article shows, loud and clear: Mr. Trump, Mexico does not send its rapist and murderers! I just wen to Tegucigalpa a couple weeks ago, and you can see the poverty and need of the country. Immigrants from the whole continent cross the border to the United States, mostly looking for a better life, not to rape or kill anyone... how sad that so many intelligent Americans believe this man.
62
I agree. Also I found great matter. Americans can not act like you do not know what happens in the world. As if they were the only ones on the planet.
What makes San Diego extremely prosperous and relatively crime-free while Tijuana is extremely poor and crime-ridden? The answer is: government and fair laws.
If we really cared about improving the life of the average Mexican citizen, rather than encouraging them to move to the US, we would encourage Mexico to declare bankruptcy and annex them to the US. Yes, I am saying bring back Manifest Destiny.
Mexico has had 100 years to improve the lot of the average citizen and have failed at it. Their police are corrupt. People at the top (like Carlos Slim) are richer than Bill Gates funded by people who make 1/10 of what Americans make.
Why is that?
If we really cared about improving the life of the average Mexican citizen, rather than encouraging them to move to the US, we would encourage Mexico to declare bankruptcy and annex them to the US. Yes, I am saying bring back Manifest Destiny.
Mexico has had 100 years to improve the lot of the average citizen and have failed at it. Their police are corrupt. People at the top (like Carlos Slim) are richer than Bill Gates funded by people who make 1/10 of what Americans make.
Why is that?
3
It is mostly not intelligent Americans who believe this man.
As the most powerful nation on early, just barely these days, if we truly wanted to stem immigration we'd be spending our capital on helping to make life tolerable outside our borders - especially for the people right on our border.
It's not logical in one breath to suggest we want to stem free trade, move jobs out of Mexico, and then erect a wall to prevent the recently impoverished, desperate-to-escape-crime families from seeking a brighter future here. All we are doing is creating more refugees.
There are no easy answers to this - I realize. But helping our neighbors be more prosperous seems a better solution than increasing their misery and attempting to shut them out. Humans are clever. For every barrier we erect, there will be someone who defeats it.
Better we spend our time slaving away at envisioning how to make our neighbors as attractive as we are, than hoping our fences are high enough that we can better go on pretending they're not there.
It's not logical in one breath to suggest we want to stem free trade, move jobs out of Mexico, and then erect a wall to prevent the recently impoverished, desperate-to-escape-crime families from seeking a brighter future here. All we are doing is creating more refugees.
There are no easy answers to this - I realize. But helping our neighbors be more prosperous seems a better solution than increasing their misery and attempting to shut them out. Humans are clever. For every barrier we erect, there will be someone who defeats it.
Better we spend our time slaving away at envisioning how to make our neighbors as attractive as we are, than hoping our fences are high enough that we can better go on pretending they're not there.
3
Actually, I want my tax dollars to help my fellow citizens and my country - infrastructure, etc. before it goes towards any foreign interests, including your recently out-of-work friends.
You can donate, spend your time and money for any thing you desire. You cannot spend mine.
You can donate, spend your time and money for any thing you desire. You cannot spend mine.
5
The reason illegal immigrants keep coming is because the US enables illegal immigration. Enforcement is almost non-existent, thanks to President Obama and his chief Domestic Policy Advisor, Cecilia Munoz, who in her previous position was a vice president of the open borders advocacy group, La Raza. Instead of enforcing immigration law, Obama's justice department has failed to go after sanctuary cities and states. Many states make it possible for illegal immigrants to get drivers licenses, which makes it easier for them to live in the US, and not just because they can drive legally. The automatic citizenship for anyone born within our borders is another lure for more illegal immigration, as is our history of granting amnesty after amnesty, and the lack of enforcement. The NYT aggravates the situation with articles like this, that claim that illegal immigration can't be stopped.
Stop enabling illegal immigration, and pass a national, mandatory E-VErify, which would make it very difficult for illegal immigrants to get jobs, and the flood will become a trickle.
Stop enabling illegal immigration, and pass a national, mandatory E-VErify, which would make it very difficult for illegal immigrants to get jobs, and the flood will become a trickle.
27
Dave, you know you are sewing lies. Obama did not put out the welcome mat for illegals. This mass illegal immigration began right after the first Amnesty Act was passed under Reagan, with no mechanism or plan for border enforcement in site of what was promised and in spite of what Reagan's naive acolytes believed. We in California knew it was a lie and only later did you people elsewhere learn the truth. This cannot be blamed on Obama!
3
In the space of a few days David Leonhardt of The Times writes a piece entitled “The Great American Stagnation” and the NYT publishes yet another pro-illegal immigration piece, this one with a subtext of “nothing going to stop them anyway, so why even try?” Of course, this being The Times, the NYT draws no inferences between the two subjects. And yet twenty five years ago, houses were painted, lawns were mowed, restaurant meals were cooked, hotel rooms were cleaned, meat was butchered and roads were paved by working Americans being paid living wages by American employers. What would the American economy look like today if the illegal immigration invasion hadn’t have taken place? Would the millions of American house painters, landscapers, cooks, maids, butchers and construction workers have been able to hang on to their middle-class lifestyles? Would they have been able to send their children to college? Might they have improved their lives and their children’s futures and headed off the stagnation that now hangs like a fog over the American economy?
Yes, undeniably, goods and services would cost more if the labor component was done by Americans. But when we get to the point where the yardstick for judging the impact of illegal immigration is “wow, how cheap it is to have my lawn mowed!” we have reached a sad, sad point as a nation-state.
Yes, undeniably, goods and services would cost more if the labor component was done by Americans. But when we get to the point where the yardstick for judging the impact of illegal immigration is “wow, how cheap it is to have my lawn mowed!” we have reached a sad, sad point as a nation-state.
27
25 years ago? You're dreaming. More like 50 years ago and it usually wasn't white folk doing the dirty work, it was blacks. Whites were the contractors. And if you don't think ranchers on the border have hired undocumented workers, just think again. It is what has made practical sense based on labor available and is how border ranchers have often - but not always - survived.
4
Having lived behind a Wall, I am not so certain of its efficacy.
There will will always be those who try to find a way to get around it, or go under it, or over it, even if it costs them their lives.
Of course in Berlin there were also the Watchtowers, and the minefields, and the dogs -- and a terrain that was easier to monitor than Mexico with its many hills. But that still didn't deter people from trying to get past it -- and in ways that often bordered on ingenious.
Mr. Trump may try to build his wall, but it too will ultimately come down.
There will will always be those who try to find a way to get around it, or go under it, or over it, even if it costs them their lives.
Of course in Berlin there were also the Watchtowers, and the minefields, and the dogs -- and a terrain that was easier to monitor than Mexico with its many hills. But that still didn't deter people from trying to get past it -- and in ways that often bordered on ingenious.
Mr. Trump may try to build his wall, but it too will ultimately come down.
42
The difference is fundamental: in versus out.
The Berlin wall was built to keep people in.
In Berlin, people -- and police -- on the outside welcomed and aided those who tried to get out.
That is the opposite of a wall (or other barrier) on the souther border built to keep people out.
Very few people on the inside -- and none of the police -- will welcome or assist those trying to get in, and those few who do -- including "charities" -- ought to be prosecuted for aiding and abetting.
The Berlin wall was built to keep people in.
In Berlin, people -- and police -- on the outside welcomed and aided those who tried to get out.
That is the opposite of a wall (or other barrier) on the souther border built to keep people out.
Very few people on the inside -- and none of the police -- will welcome or assist those trying to get in, and those few who do -- including "charities" -- ought to be prosecuted for aiding and abetting.
Fundamental difference:
The Berlin Wall was built to keep people in.
A wall on our souther border will be built to keep people out.
Maybe you are having trouble with up and down as well as in and out?
The Berlin Wall was built to keep people in.
A wall on our souther border will be built to keep people out.
Maybe you are having trouble with up and down as well as in and out?
@finn
No offense. But I'm the one who lived there. And t wasn't as one-sided as you seem to think.
What you don't know is the Wall was also built to keep people out. The idea being to preserve a political ideology by limiting outside influences (specifically from the West), that's why even travel inside the DDR (East Germany) required visas -- and that was just for just passing through.
As for our present situation in Germany, with the hundreds of thousands of refugees and migrants, that's another matter--and there's not enough space here to discuss it.
But I would like to suggest you read a bit more before making some of your conclusions.
If you cannot read German, SPIEGEL Online has an English section.
No offense. But I'm the one who lived there. And t wasn't as one-sided as you seem to think.
What you don't know is the Wall was also built to keep people out. The idea being to preserve a political ideology by limiting outside influences (specifically from the West), that's why even travel inside the DDR (East Germany) required visas -- and that was just for just passing through.
As for our present situation in Germany, with the hundreds of thousands of refugees and migrants, that's another matter--and there's not enough space here to discuss it.
But I would like to suggest you read a bit more before making some of your conclusions.
If you cannot read German, SPIEGEL Online has an English section.
4
I like walls. The old brick walls around the walled garden of my prep school were beautiful.
The walls were eight feet high and had been erected in Tudor times. Each of the four walls had thick buttresses every twenty feet or so which we used as a set of stumps when we played three person cricket with a bat and tennis ball into the long, swift-filled summer evenings . The mortar between the soft red bricks was not hard grey cement but a crumbling yellow-white mix of sand and lime. Ivy, purple wisteria and honeysuckle crowded everywhere over the walltops. In the cooler, damp, shaded corners, green mosses grew in the crevices.
I like bridges. Stone bridges, wooden bridges, bridges made from cast iron, wrought iron and steel.
Moats and dykes I also like.
And ferries.
For me, the best world is a secure world made safe with walls, moats and dykes, but mediated by as many bridges and ferries.
The walls were eight feet high and had been erected in Tudor times. Each of the four walls had thick buttresses every twenty feet or so which we used as a set of stumps when we played three person cricket with a bat and tennis ball into the long, swift-filled summer evenings . The mortar between the soft red bricks was not hard grey cement but a crumbling yellow-white mix of sand and lime. Ivy, purple wisteria and honeysuckle crowded everywhere over the walltops. In the cooler, damp, shaded corners, green mosses grew in the crevices.
I like bridges. Stone bridges, wooden bridges, bridges made from cast iron, wrought iron and steel.
Moats and dykes I also like.
And ferries.
For me, the best world is a secure world made safe with walls, moats and dykes, but mediated by as many bridges and ferries.
6
Exactly what is the difference between a wall and a fence?
This is not a rhetorical question.
This is not a rhetorical question.
1
Actually, the 'wall' (actually 2 or triple layer fencing) works very well. It has to be patrolled, too. In the San Diego sector, illegal crossings have been cut 95% by such an arrangement. NPR pointed this out 10 years ago, and it is still true. Further, the areas protected by the wall, Otay Mesa and Chula Vista, thrived as a result.
Yes, it costs money, but so does illegal immigration (do you think a $10.00 an hr busboy pays anything much taxes, let alone enough to cover his 2-3 , or in this case 5, kids in school?
Well any measure completely stop illegal immigration? Of course not, any more than robbery (say) has been stopped by laws and prisons, and survellience cameras. But both can be, and have been, cut where prudent measures have been taken.
Yes, it costs money, but so does illegal immigration (do you think a $10.00 an hr busboy pays anything much taxes, let alone enough to cover his 2-3 , or in this case 5, kids in school?
Well any measure completely stop illegal immigration? Of course not, any more than robbery (say) has been stopped by laws and prisons, and survellience cameras. But both can be, and have been, cut where prudent measures have been taken.
64
Well, if you support Trump you know that he is one of the biggest fish that should be caught not paying taxes, and just for the record many of those undocumented immigrants do pay taxes, just check the web site for the Samaritans organization, mentioned in this article.
2
Time to re-read Joseph Wambaugh's _Lines and Shadows_ again, and try to figure out how to say "plus ça change" in Spanish...
Perhaps the next President and Congress will find a way to balance protection of US interests with humanity towards those seeking a better life. There were sparks of hope early in the George W. Bush administration; he seemed to be rather simpatico with Vicente Fox, and immigration reform was not a political third rail. Unfortunately 9/11 soon put us into a mindset conducive to figuratively and literally building walls instead of bridges, and then came the cartel wars...
As for narcotrafficing, approximately 100% of it exists because we Americans want to smoke, snort, and shoot up things we shouldn't...
Perhaps the next President and Congress will find a way to balance protection of US interests with humanity towards those seeking a better life. There were sparks of hope early in the George W. Bush administration; he seemed to be rather simpatico with Vicente Fox, and immigration reform was not a political third rail. Unfortunately 9/11 soon put us into a mindset conducive to figuratively and literally building walls instead of bridges, and then came the cartel wars...
As for narcotrafficing, approximately 100% of it exists because we Americans want to smoke, snort, and shoot up things we shouldn't...
2
Why does our elected government owe anything to foreign nationals who are invading our society? Humanity would be better if Mexico's leaders were more pushed to make their own nation a better place.
9
Watch the film The Undocumented to see the consequence of the US border policy that believes a wall is the answer.
2
Mr. ----------, tear down this wall! The Berlin wall did serve to help create and fund smugglers and profiteers. But the main thing it did was wall-off human aspirations, attempting to prevent individuals from improving their own lives, and separating families.. The Mexico/US border fence and wall mainly do the same thing.
2
As a 1st generation legal immigrant I am offended by the constant media whitewashing Illegal immigrants/aliens as just "immigrants" or "migrants."
Also how can it be racist to feel a country should control its borders and only allow in those who will benefit its citizens? Shouldn't that be a requirement for politicians to try and improve the lives of its citizens?
I am not voting for Trump but I can understand why his supports are mad.
Also how can it be racist to feel a country should control its borders and only allow in those who will benefit its citizens? Shouldn't that be a requirement for politicians to try and improve the lives of its citizens?
I am not voting for Trump but I can understand why his supports are mad.
86
People who view Mr. Trump's position as "racist" are not objecting to controlled immigration, but to the Republican nominee's characterization of illegal immigrants as drug dealers and rapists.
1
He never said all were criminals but you'll never admit that. It ruins your "racist" narrative.
2
Donald Trump has proven himself to be a racist more than once -- So, no "narrative" is necessary.
1
As usual, and paradoxically, the solution lays in the exact opposite direction of the current mainstream furor: LET THEM ALL IN!
Of course proper vetting is essential. We are all immigrants and the only same long term solution is, as we have done since before our countries founding, to welcome those that wish to come and help them become productive Americans .. not cower in fear of "them" and vainly try to push away our fears.
Of course proper vetting is essential. We are all immigrants and the only same long term solution is, as we have done since before our countries founding, to welcome those that wish to come and help them become productive Americans .. not cower in fear of "them" and vainly try to push away our fears.
1
No doubt well over 95% of the world's seven billion people are"good" people and could pass a "vetting" process.
But also no doubt that at least 1% of those good people would come if they were allowed to come.
But that's over 100 million people.
That's far too many, even if most of them are "good people".
There need to be numerical limits, in addition to "vetting".
Right now, America grants more than one million "green cards' annually,
-- the right to legal permanent residence --
far more generous than granted by any other country.
In addition, another half million or so are allowed to come annually on a supposedly temporary basis for work or study.
That's plenty.
No more.
But also no doubt that at least 1% of those good people would come if they were allowed to come.
But that's over 100 million people.
That's far too many, even if most of them are "good people".
There need to be numerical limits, in addition to "vetting".
Right now, America grants more than one million "green cards' annually,
-- the right to legal permanent residence --
far more generous than granted by any other country.
In addition, another half million or so are allowed to come annually on a supposedly temporary basis for work or study.
That's plenty.
No more.
The drug war is lost and futile.
Policy makers and voters can't get over it.
Policy makers and voters can't get over it.
2
This notion that there is nothing that America can do to stop illegal immigration is bizarre. It may be hard, it may be costly, it may be imperfect, but it must be done.
Democrats, the NYT, liberals write piece after piece trying to convince Americans that it is racist or xenophobic to try to do anything about it.
Is the author of this column proposing that the US dismantle the little stretches of walls we have at the border? That we take down the surveillance? That we must the border patrol staffing levels? What would happen then? Wouldn't illegal immigration increase? Is that what the NYT wants to see happen?
The alternative, of course, is to make the wall better, covering the entire border, better patrolled, less porous. That has a cost. But wouldn't that lead to a further decrease in illegal immigration?
Why not write an article on what it would take to make the border 25% less porous or 50% less porous or 75% less porous? Then we can weight the cost with the benefit and determine what is the optimum cost/benefit investment in border protection.
Oh, but that would not advance the liberal agenda, right?
Democrats, the NYT, liberals write piece after piece trying to convince Americans that it is racist or xenophobic to try to do anything about it.
Is the author of this column proposing that the US dismantle the little stretches of walls we have at the border? That we take down the surveillance? That we must the border patrol staffing levels? What would happen then? Wouldn't illegal immigration increase? Is that what the NYT wants to see happen?
The alternative, of course, is to make the wall better, covering the entire border, better patrolled, less porous. That has a cost. But wouldn't that lead to a further decrease in illegal immigration?
Why not write an article on what it would take to make the border 25% less porous or 50% less porous or 75% less porous? Then we can weight the cost with the benefit and determine what is the optimum cost/benefit investment in border protection.
Oh, but that would not advance the liberal agenda, right?
9
This is a myth perpetuated by Trumpians. Like most genuine liberals, I am opposed to illegal immigration. It's not llberals but GOP-voting employers and business owners like Donald Trump who support the illegal employment of illegal immigrants because they make more money out of it by paying less.
3
I join you in this accurate rebuke of Barron of CT.
51 % of illegals are visa overstays mostly from Asia
Illegal immigration and drug smuggling are two very different problems that call for two very different approaches.
Illegal immigrants are desperate people seeking an escape from violence or poverty. A guest worker program would minimize or eradicate the problem. We had a bracero program that actually worked. When a person signs up for a bracero card, he undergoes a criminal background check, and we'd have fingerprints, photos and data so they cannot disappear into the underground. With our advanced technology, It can work again.
With their hands freed up by no longer chasing economic and political immigrants, the Border Patrol can redirect it's officers and technology into fighting smuggling and other cross border crime.
As with the phantom illegal voters that are the pretext for oppressive voter vigilance, the shibboleth of illegal immigrant rapists and murderers is a pretext for oppressing people who are willing to risk their lives to take the jobs Americans won't. Do you really think they are depriving your son of the opportunity to lay shingles on a steep roof in the 120 degree August Texas sun for $11 an hour?
Illegal immigrants are desperate people seeking an escape from violence or poverty. A guest worker program would minimize or eradicate the problem. We had a bracero program that actually worked. When a person signs up for a bracero card, he undergoes a criminal background check, and we'd have fingerprints, photos and data so they cannot disappear into the underground. With our advanced technology, It can work again.
With their hands freed up by no longer chasing economic and political immigrants, the Border Patrol can redirect it's officers and technology into fighting smuggling and other cross border crime.
As with the phantom illegal voters that are the pretext for oppressive voter vigilance, the shibboleth of illegal immigrant rapists and murderers is a pretext for oppressing people who are willing to risk their lives to take the jobs Americans won't. Do you really think they are depriving your son of the opportunity to lay shingles on a steep roof in the 120 degree August Texas sun for $11 an hour?
4
Sure, but how about all Texas roofers get a minimum wage of $20 an hour and homebuyers pay more for their new homes?
6
People like the two ranchers, trump supporters, are frightening. They would gladly follow a strong man dictator and ruin our country.
2
Come to America legally, no problem. Come here illegally, don't come at all! What part of ILLEGAL don't you and yours understand?! Guilty of trespassing into a sovereign nation, murder, rape, child abuse, drugs, guns, stealing and faking IDs, DUI DWI, burglary, and on and on. Nothing good nor legal. Deport all illegal aliens and jail those who assist and hire them permanently. Simple common sense. No more anchor babies or HBVisas either. No more sanctuary cities.
No one is above the law. It's like breaking into a house and then demanding that you can stay there. No different!
No one is above the law. It's like breaking into a house and then demanding that you can stay there. No different!
9
The 'wall' was always more symbolic than real. First of all president Obama has tightened the boarder about as much as it can be tightened with wall extensions, drones, increased ICE agents and numerous detention centers. He thought this would spur the GOP to come up with comprehensive immigration reform. They didn't because big business wants cheap immigrant labor even though their constituents incorrectly believe that immigrants are taking American jobs and burdening our resources.
We are loosing jobs, but not from those crossing the southern boarder. The H-1B visa program continues full speed ahead with no walls in place and most of their recipients are from Asia.
But the wall represents in the minds of many Americans a return to a world that has passed them by. That world hadn't dumped US subsidized corn on Mexico sending millions of small farmers to ruin and eventually across our boarders.
But todays world of free flowing unregulated capital moves money and jobs around like pieces on a chess board. Despite what many think, a bigger or better wall isn't going to change that.
We are loosing jobs, but not from those crossing the southern boarder. The H-1B visa program continues full speed ahead with no walls in place and most of their recipients are from Asia.
But the wall represents in the minds of many Americans a return to a world that has passed them by. That world hadn't dumped US subsidized corn on Mexico sending millions of small farmers to ruin and eventually across our boarders.
But todays world of free flowing unregulated capital moves money and jobs around like pieces on a chess board. Despite what many think, a bigger or better wall isn't going to change that.
5
Donald J. Trump campaigns with a policy of protecting our borders...secure them, build wall to keep them out. Make Mexico pay for the wall. If we are talking about securing our borders, where is the discussion regarding the wall on the northern border that Canada will be paying for? I have not heard him mention that part of his plan yet. Borders are borders are they not? Any criminals and rapists in Windsor or Vancouver? Should keep them out as well. Perhaps they are okay because they are not brown skinned.
If DJT also wants to bring all those stolen American jobs back from Mexico, guess what happens to illegal immigration when those jobs leave Mexico? Perhaps we let them all in, but put a bounty on any illegal immigrant scalp, or just shoot people you don't like as they are doing in the Philippines. They might make them think twice about coming over!
If DJT also wants to bring all those stolen American jobs back from Mexico, guess what happens to illegal immigration when those jobs leave Mexico? Perhaps we let them all in, but put a bounty on any illegal immigrant scalp, or just shoot people you don't like as they are doing in the Philippines. They might make them think twice about coming over!
2
Specious argument. How many Canadians would be foolish enough to come here illegally? In fact, how many actually come to the US on purpose when their own country has a better lifestyle?
1
Is it still true that the rate of attempted and actual entry into our country by illegal immigrants has actually slowed down and decreased? Shouldn't that be mentioned in this article?
3
Yes net migration from Mexico has decreased markedly and is almost negative with Mexico's improving economy. The fastest growing group of illegals are from visa overstays, mostly Asian.
2
I live near the border wall, close to Nogales, Arizona. Often I feel like I live in a gated community, locking out the people I love--the good people of Mexico. The wall is a potent, visceral symbol which says we're better than you, keep out, we don't want you messing up our lily-white country. And it kills people--21 bodies retrieved from the Sonoran desert in September. We have built a wall that keeps out poor people. I am ashamed of my country for this horrific, ugly blockade. Thank you Declan for balanced report.
195
Tell me what country allows people to enter without coming thru some kind of entry point besides the ones in Europe and this because of the agreement that established the E.U.
Even if there is no wall if you can not cross from country A to country B it is equivalent to having a gated community where gates are not needed because people obey the law.
So if you are against this gate for the reasons you give then to be consistent you have to be against any borders in the world.
You are making a argument if you really mean what you wrote that there should be no nation states.
If you can go between any two countries than borders are meaningless and you have anarchy.
Is this something you really intended.
Even if there is no wall if you can not cross from country A to country B it is equivalent to having a gated community where gates are not needed because people obey the law.
So if you are against this gate for the reasons you give then to be consistent you have to be against any borders in the world.
You are making a argument if you really mean what you wrote that there should be no nation states.
If you can go between any two countries than borders are meaningless and you have anarchy.
Is this something you really intended.
So just let in all the "poor people" of the world -- all 3 or 4 billion of them.
Let them into your backyard first,
Then the backyards of your parents, brothers, sisters, children and in-laws.
Let them into your backyard first,
Then the backyards of your parents, brothers, sisters, children and in-laws.
2
We have had exploitation of immigrants. Not too long ago, a pizza chain was cited for labor abuses by denying overtime pay to a group of Brazilians who were enticed here by promises of a better living. That business pulled a "TRUMP" and declared bankruptcy in order to avoid paying fines and reimbursing the workers. Our area saw an influx of Brazilians, but that surge seems to have disippated. Restaurants prefer to hire Brazilians because they do not complain, possibly under threat of deportation, about the horrible unsafe working conditions, including tight working areas around extremely hot ovens.
6
Good point - illegal immigrants enrich amoral business owners by not complaining about substandard and/or illegal working conditions, so we should keep the status quo so we can have pizza.
This is why labor interests are fundamentally incompatible with lax/no immigration enforcement.
This is why labor interests are fundamentally incompatible with lax/no immigration enforcement.
5
Elon Musk hired a contractor who hired a contractor who imported people from Slavic countries to do construction workin the Fremont CA Tesla factory-- for about 3.00 per hour with no safety standards in place. Plenty of Americans would have done this labor, and certainly Tesla could have paid them very well. The news of this greedy capitalist-- which resulted in at least one horrid accident of one Polish man-- hit the local paper for exactly one day. And then vanished. Never even made the NYT or any other MSM. Could the omission be due to the adulation the elites and the corporate masters want to thrust upon Mr. Musk? (Who is after all, a "maker.") In truth, how is he not as evil as the Simon Legree of legend?
1
'' The Wall is a Fantasy'' ~ I absolutely concur.
Borders are fictitious lines on a piece of paper or map and a human construct based on tribalism. They reflect only a select few's reality and don't take in the reality of others that only seek out a better life. Some of those people are just trying to survive on the most basic level and are not thinking about ID when they are looking for shelter, sustenance or fleeing violence.
Ultimately once this comment is posted, there will be a flood of people retorting about ''illegals'' and all manner of invective about ''rule of law'' and such. Every single one of them will conveniently leave out that their ancestors moved about the globe freely beforehand or that the land they live upon now was taken from somebody else in the first place ( Native Americans ). Their little town might have been built by slave labor, yet that happened long ago and they now should not be held responsible.
The point is that the wall is indeed a fantasy and that the reality is that we are all global citizens. We are human beings, that when we are born have the exact same rights as anybody else. Those rights include the right to live and if that requires moving across an imaginary line for food, shelter or the like , then so be it.
We are all free.
Borders are fictitious lines on a piece of paper or map and a human construct based on tribalism. They reflect only a select few's reality and don't take in the reality of others that only seek out a better life. Some of those people are just trying to survive on the most basic level and are not thinking about ID when they are looking for shelter, sustenance or fleeing violence.
Ultimately once this comment is posted, there will be a flood of people retorting about ''illegals'' and all manner of invective about ''rule of law'' and such. Every single one of them will conveniently leave out that their ancestors moved about the globe freely beforehand or that the land they live upon now was taken from somebody else in the first place ( Native Americans ). Their little town might have been built by slave labor, yet that happened long ago and they now should not be held responsible.
The point is that the wall is indeed a fantasy and that the reality is that we are all global citizens. We are human beings, that when we are born have the exact same rights as anybody else. Those rights include the right to live and if that requires moving across an imaginary line for food, shelter or the like , then so be it.
We are all free.
2
I seriously doubt whether you in Ireland are dealing with the level of illegal immigration that the border states in the US deal with so your view is really moot.
2
If Hamas can infiltrate a much smaller and much more secure wall between Gaza and Israel, what makes anyone think that a 2,000 mile long wall will prevent people from crossing the border into the US?
1
Immigration problems are partially a symptom of bad foreign policy and corrupt governments. If the U.S. truly worked to support and improve democratic governments in Central America there would be no influx of migrants seeking refuge in the U.S. from violence (one could say the same about Europe and the Middle East) Instead the U.S. fails to condemn anti-democratic coups (Honduras) and continues to support governments that sow violence in their own countries. Average Americans also are guilty by consuming vast amounts of illicit drugs and sending guns South which contributes to the root cause of the violence sending immigrants fleeing to the U.S. To solve immigration issues, look within our own borders, the root cause is to be found here.
1
Ok, so do you really believe that "average" U.S. citizens would not support legalizing some drugs and taking some of the profit out of drug trafficking?
I really question whether "average" U.S. citizens engage in selling guns to Mexico and Central American countries, that doesn't like a run of the mill occupation to me.
Your other points are good ones, funny how First World governments are increasingly engaged in pursing foreign policy that destabilizes less developed countries, and contributes to the illegal immigration of the inhabitants of those countries into First World countries - actually it's not funny and these are consciously pursued by our elites, while passing on the cost of such to our own working and middle classes.
I really question whether "average" U.S. citizens engage in selling guns to Mexico and Central American countries, that doesn't like a run of the mill occupation to me.
Your other points are good ones, funny how First World governments are increasingly engaged in pursing foreign policy that destabilizes less developed countries, and contributes to the illegal immigration of the inhabitants of those countries into First World countries - actually it's not funny and these are consciously pursued by our elites, while passing on the cost of such to our own working and middle classes.
5
Fantasy, schmantasy, make the wall tall and strong.
3
Rather than a wall, we could require all employers (including homeowners or anyone who might unknowingly hire illegal immigrants) to use e-verify to ascertain that their potential and current employees have the right to work in our country. This would stop both the people who have illegally slipped in and those who have overstayed visas.
Employers who do not comply could be fined.
Employers who do not comply could be fined.
4
I own the tiniest business. I use e-verify-- I consider it my contract with my fellow citizens, along with a binding agreement between my staff and me. Unfortunately, big business-- often through 3rd party contractors-- is not nearly so scrupulous. Only enormous fines will make it a viable program. Sad, right?
2
Has anyone ever wondered why the Bush administration didn't finish the wall? I think it was used to get elected and sound tough. Once elected though it was left to languish.
2
Let's be honest:
Trump's vision of a "beautiful, impenetrable wall" is a chimera and a silly political gimmick. Assume for a moment that such an impenetrable wall could be built along thousands of miles of land territory -- to the tune of billions, maybe trillions of dollars. There are still things like tunnels, submarines, boats, planes, and (soon) drones powerful enough to carry human cargo. Even a middle-schooler with a mediocre report card understands the concept of deafeating a wall: Go around it, over it, under it.
This doesn't mean I'm for open borders. Far from it. Only a tiny minority of fringe people actually support open borders, and once the concept is fully explained to them, most of them will discard the notion.
The vast majority of level-headed people of all political persuasions are for increased security, more walls along certain segments of the border, much more technology and funding, and much stiffer measures for those getting caught, including serious penalties for repeat offenders.
But an impenetrable wall: Silly!
Trump's vision of a "beautiful, impenetrable wall" is a chimera and a silly political gimmick. Assume for a moment that such an impenetrable wall could be built along thousands of miles of land territory -- to the tune of billions, maybe trillions of dollars. There are still things like tunnels, submarines, boats, planes, and (soon) drones powerful enough to carry human cargo. Even a middle-schooler with a mediocre report card understands the concept of deafeating a wall: Go around it, over it, under it.
This doesn't mean I'm for open borders. Far from it. Only a tiny minority of fringe people actually support open borders, and once the concept is fully explained to them, most of them will discard the notion.
The vast majority of level-headed people of all political persuasions are for increased security, more walls along certain segments of the border, much more technology and funding, and much stiffer measures for those getting caught, including serious penalties for repeat offenders.
But an impenetrable wall: Silly!
2
Replace the cameras with automated guns, have a 50yd. strip salted with pressure sensitive mines and a 30ft wide by 30ft deep moat filled with razor wire. This may seem extreme, but we are far too over-populated now with people who do not share, or even understand our way of life. As we become more automated and have far fewer unskilled jobs, these people will not understand our reluctance to create a "mommy" State for them, in their language and will riot to obtain what they believe they need. We will go downhill from there and must not allow this to happen.
2
Our culture is plagued with a mechanical sense of reality, and it is running up against the limitations of that manner of thinking: a wall to keep people from crossing a border, a jail to stop the flow of drugs, drones and bombs to solve international problems.
The U.S. has an aging population. It depends now and will need even more immigrant labor in the future. Giving more people a legal pathway to come and programs to help them adjust could simultaneously solve problems.
If we want to survive
we need to adapt, and
that means to change our thinking when the old thinking is not working. The labor of immigrants needs to be appreciated for the gold mine it is: the force that built (and can continues to build) this country, if we are wise enough to see if that way.
The U.S. has an aging population. It depends now and will need even more immigrant labor in the future. Giving more people a legal pathway to come and programs to help them adjust could simultaneously solve problems.
If we want to survive
we need to adapt, and
that means to change our thinking when the old thinking is not working. The labor of immigrants needs to be appreciated for the gold mine it is: the force that built (and can continues to build) this country, if we are wise enough to see if that way.
2
Free Trade has allowed many manufacturers to move their plants overseas and then bring the finished goods back here to sell, without having to pay tariffs. Many in the working class lost their jobs.
Hi tech has displaced many others.
Some pundits have begun talking about the end of work. They suggest the government will have to pay everyone a living wage because there are not enough gobs to go around. Already, 1 out of 6 able-bodied American men is unemployed.
The U;S. does not have an aging problem. We do not have enough jobs left for those with no more than a high school diploma. We do not need low skilled immigrants.
If we were to offer a path to citizenship to illegal immigrants, they would be able to legally bring in their parents. These people have no more than a 6th grade eduction, and they will not be learning English. They will be eligible for all kinds of expensive government programs, including housing and medical care. They will constitute an aging problem.
Hi tech has displaced many others.
Some pundits have begun talking about the end of work. They suggest the government will have to pay everyone a living wage because there are not enough gobs to go around. Already, 1 out of 6 able-bodied American men is unemployed.
The U;S. does not have an aging problem. We do not have enough jobs left for those with no more than a high school diploma. We do not need low skilled immigrants.
If we were to offer a path to citizenship to illegal immigrants, they would be able to legally bring in their parents. These people have no more than a 6th grade eduction, and they will not be learning English. They will be eligible for all kinds of expensive government programs, including housing and medical care. They will constitute an aging problem.
3
There are already walls in areas where it is practical to build them. Some areas should not be walled because of environmental and other concerns. Go to Big Bend National Park and the river provides the only separation. It is beautiful and desolate there. Do not destroy that.
4
Hail to the "Deporter in Chief"! should be a Republicans chant in stead of "build that wall"
The Problem with the wall is that there are many places on the border where there is no wall thus illegal aliens come through those areas.
We must gain control of our southern border and building a wall through the entire length is worth it to keep out illegal aliens. As long as we have stretches of the border that have no wall or barricade to stop illegal aliens we can be sure that they will somehow get into our country.
We have an administration in Obama and CLinton that sees no problem with illegal aliens. They are trying to tells us these people enrich America. What a lie. Do you honestly believe some illiterate Honduran can make a contribution to AMerican -- all they will do is try to get welfare benefits and hope that the next Amnesty is coming soon.
The Democratic Party is a large part of our problem. They have used various excuses to block the nationwide mandatory introduction E-Verify. Stopping illegal aliens from working will go a long way with stopping then from coming.
We must also step up deportation and not let them drag on for years. We must limit appeals. We must develop a way to check visa overstays. And I think we should have a national Identification card as they do in Europe. Also we should so away with birthright citizenship and not admit people with infectious diseases,
We should choose whom we want to come, not let them choose what country they want to go to.
There must not be another amnesty. We were lied to in 1984 - Never Again.
We must gain control of our southern border and building a wall through the entire length is worth it to keep out illegal aliens. As long as we have stretches of the border that have no wall or barricade to stop illegal aliens we can be sure that they will somehow get into our country.
We have an administration in Obama and CLinton that sees no problem with illegal aliens. They are trying to tells us these people enrich America. What a lie. Do you honestly believe some illiterate Honduran can make a contribution to AMerican -- all they will do is try to get welfare benefits and hope that the next Amnesty is coming soon.
The Democratic Party is a large part of our problem. They have used various excuses to block the nationwide mandatory introduction E-Verify. Stopping illegal aliens from working will go a long way with stopping then from coming.
We must also step up deportation and not let them drag on for years. We must limit appeals. We must develop a way to check visa overstays. And I think we should have a national Identification card as they do in Europe. Also we should so away with birthright citizenship and not admit people with infectious diseases,
We should choose whom we want to come, not let them choose what country they want to go to.
There must not be another amnesty. We were lied to in 1984 - Never Again.
4
And do you really think it is all democrats who HIRE these people you so despise? I'd say it's a bipartisan cocktail, heavy on the GOP!
1
What might actually work -- far better than walls and deporting migrants -- is doing what the original 1985 amnesty bill promised: punishing employers who knowingly hire people here illegally. Unfortunately, the people who scream loudest about illegals are the ones who are happy to make money off their sweat and desperation. These "patriots" charge outrageous rents for substandard housing...pay below-market wages...and sometimes refuse to pay after the work is done.
251
You described one of the presidential candidates perfectly!
2
Start with employers who live and/or work within the beltway. Start first with those owning vehicles with list prices over $100 thousand.
1
Are we really supposed to feel glad that a Honduran national with five kids and probably no job skills or a word of English took it upon himself to violate our laws?
17
Well, he won't be having any more children while he's here and his wife is back home. I sometimes wonder how often birth control, in effect, is a part of the motivation for some illegal immigration.
I also wonder when I look at the prices at Starbucks why a coffee grower in Honduras can't make a living wage.
I also wonder when I look at the prices at Starbucks why a coffee grower in Honduras can't make a living wage.
2
Deport the illegal alien parents and the children that they dragged into their ill-considered scheme to trespass into our country, flout our laws, and steal services intended for American citizens and those lawfully present in our country. The parents will learn nothing from being deported -- especially when illegal alien advocates tell them that THEY are the victims -- but their children will learn a valuable life lesson: cheaters never prosper.
5
I'm for open borders. Take care of the drug issue by changing our approach from a criminal narrative to a medical one. Legalize and tax questionable substance businesses so border crossing loses the profit motive. There is no moral justification for keeping human beings in search of better lives out of our country. If the culture of their native countries poses a threat to our civil society, our legal system already has the tools to quell any serious threats. I'm really tired of the shame I feel about 'exceptionalism' being that we are exceptionally mean and awful to immigrants. We are all the descendants of immigrants, with the exception of native Americans. And according to scientists, even those Americans came here from the Asian continent a few thousand years ago. People will always move to wherever they perceive greener pastures to be.
4
The caption on the second photo is completely wrong "(America to the right, Mexico to the left)"
Last I heard, Mexico was not only part of America, but also part of North America.
Last I heard, Mexico was not only part of America, but also part of North America.
4
This article does not address those areas where the wall is "virtual" -- a video feed; those places where a wall cannot be built because the property belongs to Indians; and those places where a wall creates property issues for owners.
1
Interesting that the Times has adopted the colloquial use of "America." Which is repeatedly mentioned in this article. This heartland term is not appreciated beyond the U.S. border. And more importantly inaccurate. According to Merriam's it's still: the continent of North America or the continent of South America; lands of the Western Hemisphere.
3
Must we continue to ignore every lesson of the past? Look at the fate of nations that erect walls to protect their borders - back to Rome. But it isn't barbarian hoards that threaten our borders. Walls have more recently been raised to keep populations in. We're left to ponder, when the wall is built, to which side will the guns be pointed?
Mr. Trump is the reason for the Electoral College system. Let's not forget the abiding wisdom of the framers.
de Tocqueville wrote of the tyranny of the majority. He also said “I do not know if the people of the United States would vote for superior men if they ran for office, but there can be no doubt that such men do not run.”
Or, for a more recent quote: "Be afraid. Be very afraid."
Mr. Trump is the reason for the Electoral College system. Let's not forget the abiding wisdom of the framers.
de Tocqueville wrote of the tyranny of the majority. He also said “I do not know if the people of the United States would vote for superior men if they ran for office, but there can be no doubt that such men do not run.”
Or, for a more recent quote: "Be afraid. Be very afraid."
1
There've been lots of walls. Great wall ofChina - breached by the mongols who ruled china couple of centuries thereafter. Great wall of Israel - goofy snake around Israeli islands, not keeping the Palestinans out of Israel. Iron Curtain & Berlin wall - porous, frequently penetrated by determined emigrants, finally fell. Prisons all over the world are often escaped from. Walls are penetrated physically and by subterfuge. Walls don't work. Fixing the problems that create the need for walls will work. The biggest victims of these walls are the people who are of such a narrow mindset that they can only see that solution.
2
So, Declan, what is your answer? I understand the NYT is vitally interested in letting everyone who wants a new life walk into the EU, but what is your angle? And what kind of bogus, lying journalism are you practicing. "Hungary has erected a 108-mile-long fence to keep out Syrians" LIE. Hungary is very interested in controlling the numbers of illegal migrants that seem to think it is their right to enter the country ANYWHERE they want. If any were Syrian and willing to enter through approved checkpoints, AND willing to ask for asylum (as per the EU law), they would be offered asylum. The thousands of Afghans, North Africans, Pakistanis who think they have the right to march through any country to get to Great Britain, Germany, or Sweden are the people Hungary wants to stop. Or at least follow the law. Something wrong with that, Declan? When does being a self-declared "refugee" trump international law, give you the right to trespass on a sovereign countries land. Is this something YOU decide, Declan? Or do the people who actually reside in the country have any input? I understand that the NYT editors need to sell this sob story to fob off its naive, liberal readers and will never have to deal with the failing schools, overburdened public services, and broken social systems that uncontrolled immigration brings. If the NYT and Hilliary Clinton keep up this farce, the ONLY recourse citizens will have is the one Mr. Ashurst mentions--just shooting these people.
8
The immigrant phenomenon is of our own making, driven by an insatiable appetite for cocaine, heroin and cheap marijuana and cheaper labor paid for by the wretched of the earth who risk their lives to come here to do. You know, all those jobs no White Man wants to do, or Black Man or Asian, or anyone else who wants to break their back in stoop labor and pick and shovel for 8 bucks an hr. There is one import that America has gladly sent to the South, All those gang Bangers from our prisons with tats on their faces like MS-13, 18th Street Crips, who now have staked out their claims in the homeland of their parents and grandparents and have destabilized Honduras, Guatemala, El Salvador which is the corridor that the drugs flow enroute to White Americans "with a Disease" and Black and Latino Junkies who are, "The chronically unemployed." Until we Americans want to do our own agriculture, food processing, construction, home services and pay a real market rate for those services, count your blessings. PS: Those capitalist inspired Mexican Cartels are pivoting to heroin production for our diseased.
1
The easiest way to stanch illegal immigration--far more cost effective than a wall--would be to pass a national, mandatory E-Verify, complete with severe sanctions for CEOs whose companies knowingly hire illegal immigrants (like prison time).
E-Verify is a system that makes it easy for companies to determine whether someone applying for a job is a citizen or a legal immigrant, or neither. Thousands of companies already use this system and several states have made it mandatory, and it's mandatory for Federal contractors. It has an excellent track record. If it were mandatory nationally, most illegal immigrants would leave.
But the Democratic Party doesn't want to make it mandatory nationally, because they think that once legalized, illegal immigrants will become Democratic voters. The GOP doesn't want to make it mandatory because big biz likes the cheap, easily exploitable labor. President Obama probably could have made DAPA palatable had he coupled it with a national, mandatory E-Verify, but his Domestic Policy Advisor, Cecilia Munoz, is a former VP of the open borders advocacy group, La Raza, and one can only conclude that O always favored open borders. (Why didn't the NYT ever report on this?)
E-Verify is a system that makes it easy for companies to determine whether someone applying for a job is a citizen or a legal immigrant, or neither. Thousands of companies already use this system and several states have made it mandatory, and it's mandatory for Federal contractors. It has an excellent track record. If it were mandatory nationally, most illegal immigrants would leave.
But the Democratic Party doesn't want to make it mandatory nationally, because they think that once legalized, illegal immigrants will become Democratic voters. The GOP doesn't want to make it mandatory because big biz likes the cheap, easily exploitable labor. President Obama probably could have made DAPA palatable had he coupled it with a national, mandatory E-Verify, but his Domestic Policy Advisor, Cecilia Munoz, is a former VP of the open borders advocacy group, La Raza, and one can only conclude that O always favored open borders. (Why didn't the NYT ever report on this?)
13
E verify is great but the majority of illegals work under the table, cash jobs. They advertise for day laborers and pay cash daily
1
Pew Research has done a profile of immigrants flooding our borders. The vast majority are illiterate and lack the basic skills to function in the new global economy. As a result, the majority occupy the lowest payjng postions in our economy, i.e minumim wage jobs. Employers favor them over citizens because they can avoid paying benefits, SSI, Disability, healthcare, etc. while paying less than minumum wage. They are "off the books".
They cause a "race to the bottom" for wages and benefits for citizens, while depleting the social safety net. Of necessity, most qualify for food stamps, get healthcare as indigents, and pay few taxes because they are paid in cash to avoid it.
Perfect control of illegal immigration is difficult, but the old adage " The Perfect is the enemy of the good" applies. Border control is needed to throttle immigration. it does not imply a cessation of immigration.
They cause a "race to the bottom" for wages and benefits for citizens, while depleting the social safety net. Of necessity, most qualify for food stamps, get healthcare as indigents, and pay few taxes because they are paid in cash to avoid it.
Perfect control of illegal immigration is difficult, but the old adage " The Perfect is the enemy of the good" applies. Border control is needed to throttle immigration. it does not imply a cessation of immigration.
15
Journalism is getting more relevant by the day. Thank you!
1
I'm betting Mr. Talavera is more likely to get a new job than Mr. Trump. More likely to pay Federal taxes as well.
7
While the American border wall serves as little more than a symbol of fear and xenophobia, as it crumbles and decays it becomes increasing melodic, creating new opportunities for creating dialogue via music and sound. The American border wall --- as is the case with all border walls around the globe --- is but an overpriced crumbling instrument waiting for people to play it. https://sonicanta.bandcamp.com/album/59-deaths-tanking-the-border-wall
1
It's interesting that Mr. Ashurst claims to have "...helped more Mexicans than the activists..." yet he thinks that we should deploy the military to kill anyone who crosses the border. Are we really supposed to believe that he helped people that he said we should kill? He seems to be happy in that basket of deplorables.
4
Trump is wrong when he states Mexicans are Racist.
However it is wrong to permit entree into the USA without some form of control.
You have to have a point of entree.
There is one between Canada and the USA where you have to have something besides a simple ID to get across the border.
It is not racist to demand Mexicans should follow the same rules and if not
a way should be put in place to stop them from crossing your border.
I see no reason a fence will not work
First no matter how high a fence will not work if there is no way you can stop them from climbing before being detected.
'You need more than one fence.
You need at least two fences and some type of devise between those two fences that can detect movement
The first fence is to stop animals from entering this space so the movement detectors can work in detecting humans who are present and not other animals.
With a way to detect a person before they climb this second or third fence it should be easy to detect someone and have enough time to get people there to stop them from crossing over.
However it is wrong to permit entree into the USA without some form of control.
You have to have a point of entree.
There is one between Canada and the USA where you have to have something besides a simple ID to get across the border.
It is not racist to demand Mexicans should follow the same rules and if not
a way should be put in place to stop them from crossing your border.
I see no reason a fence will not work
First no matter how high a fence will not work if there is no way you can stop them from climbing before being detected.
'You need more than one fence.
You need at least two fences and some type of devise between those two fences that can detect movement
The first fence is to stop animals from entering this space so the movement detectors can work in detecting humans who are present and not other animals.
With a way to detect a person before they climb this second or third fence it should be easy to detect someone and have enough time to get people there to stop them from crossing over.
4
They come here because Mexico's Rich do nothing for them, Mexico needs to be held accountable and we need to put tariffs on there imports to offset the cost of there corruption and we need to make it very difficult for them to send any money they illegally make here back to Mexico/Amen
8
You mean it's not the duty of the U.S. working and middle classes to provide welfare, housing, medical care and education to the poor of Mexico and Central America who illegally immigrate here so their elites can keep the same system in place that profits them?
Someone tell our political class, please.
Someone tell our political class, please.
4
If Americans really wanted illegal immigrants to leave, they would insist that employers follow the law and hold those who do not follow the law accountable. But, there are few employers going to jail. The hypocrisy is evident in non-border red states, such as Nebraska, Utah, Georgia, and Kansas, who are among the leaders of illegal immigrants per capita. If they really wanted to do the manual farm work themselves, these states have a very easy way to kick out illegal immigrants: don't hire them.
329
US agriculture is dependent on low paid migrant workers willing to work in blistering conditions to put food in the grocery carts of Americans.
This is economically similar to the time of slavery in the US when the South's cotton production was dependent on the use of slave labor and when British clothing manufacturing financed the trade in cotton.
How shall we face the need for agriculture?
Should we put some effort into moving agriculture closer to cities?
I've seen some home gardens here, but I know that the size needed is not for that type of hobby.
We need some way for agriculture to use workers who are willing to work, who see some way to advance eventually, as well as technological advances in harvesting food crops.
This is economically similar to the time of slavery in the US when the South's cotton production was dependent on the use of slave labor and when British clothing manufacturing financed the trade in cotton.
How shall we face the need for agriculture?
Should we put some effort into moving agriculture closer to cities?
I've seen some home gardens here, but I know that the size needed is not for that type of hobby.
We need some way for agriculture to use workers who are willing to work, who see some way to advance eventually, as well as technological advances in harvesting food crops.
1
Yes, crack down on employers.
But, don't make them jump through many hoops of the current system of the confusing and cumbersome format of the I-9 Form with several dozen combinations of paper proofs of ID and work authorization.
Instead, set up a mandatory, single, uniform, nationwide, digital, biometric ID system that uses a digital database of biometric markers (fingerprints, iris, accurate facial images) that can be readily scanned and read electronically and compared electronically to a national database. Further, if the employer runs the check and it comes back no match, then put the burden on the job applicant to get the problem resolved. And no supposedly temporary authorizations pending resolution.
But, don't make them jump through many hoops of the current system of the confusing and cumbersome format of the I-9 Form with several dozen combinations of paper proofs of ID and work authorization.
Instead, set up a mandatory, single, uniform, nationwide, digital, biometric ID system that uses a digital database of biometric markers (fingerprints, iris, accurate facial images) that can be readily scanned and read electronically and compared electronically to a national database. Further, if the employer runs the check and it comes back no match, then put the burden on the job applicant to get the problem resolved. And no supposedly temporary authorizations pending resolution.
1
A year or so ago, all the Hispanics who were working for the local garden maintenance firms suddenly disappeared and the new employees were local blacks who actually knew how to properly maintain gardens since so many of them had for generations supplemented their incomes by growing fruits and vegetables. And many of them have been able to start their own maintenance businesses in competition with the large more corporate firms. I even see women now working in maintenance on the golf course. Not sure if the threat of fines and jail time for employers led to this change, but it sure has improved the landscape!
If the INS wants to easily round up illegal workers they could just start with horse boarding facilities and the A level horse shows in this country. For those of us who prided ourselves on only hiring legals, it was tough competing with those who pay cash under the table. One reason I am no longer in the business!
If the INS wants to easily round up illegal workers they could just start with horse boarding facilities and the A level horse shows in this country. For those of us who prided ourselves on only hiring legals, it was tough competing with those who pay cash under the table. One reason I am no longer in the business!
4
First, stop "educating" employers and start prosecuting them for breaking the law. More business owners and human resource managers doing hard time in federal prison is cheaper and more effective than building a wall. A wall puts the onus for compliance on desperate people, jail for employers will have a marvelous effect in reducing access to employment and thereby the reason to risk entry without inspection.
Second, recognize the flow of narcotics across the southern border is facilitated, not reduced, by the visually impressive but relatively useless practice of sending federal agents to sit in vehicles on hilltops. Bringing drugs in on the backs of border-crossers is inefficient, high-risk behavior. No-one on the Mexican side is dividing a ton of cocaine into 20-pound packages to be carted through the desert by people who will get lost, die of thirst, or get picked up by a lucky border agent. The large quantities of cocaine and heroin found in the US come across in trucks receiving cursory inspections because agents are doing static guard duty defending us against dishwashers and aspiring roofers.
Third, as has been predicted for 20 years the sharp decline in Mexican birthrates has worked its way through the demographic pyramid to the point there are fewer people competing in Mexico for land and jobs. But Mexico's government holds down wages, turns a blind eye to labor repression, and tolerates violence against its own people to support its business class and investors.
Second, recognize the flow of narcotics across the southern border is facilitated, not reduced, by the visually impressive but relatively useless practice of sending federal agents to sit in vehicles on hilltops. Bringing drugs in on the backs of border-crossers is inefficient, high-risk behavior. No-one on the Mexican side is dividing a ton of cocaine into 20-pound packages to be carted through the desert by people who will get lost, die of thirst, or get picked up by a lucky border agent. The large quantities of cocaine and heroin found in the US come across in trucks receiving cursory inspections because agents are doing static guard duty defending us against dishwashers and aspiring roofers.
Third, as has been predicted for 20 years the sharp decline in Mexican birthrates has worked its way through the demographic pyramid to the point there are fewer people competing in Mexico for land and jobs. But Mexico's government holds down wages, turns a blind eye to labor repression, and tolerates violence against its own people to support its business class and investors.
32
I would like to inform Mr. Ashurst (from the article) that he's a "sorry son of a bitch," not because he wants a closed border, but because he called President Obama "not a patriot," and wants to deploy Navy SEALS along the border to shoot anyone who crossed. People who think like him are dangerous.
132
Yeah, he should have called President Obama a corporatist - that is much more accurate.
3
The weight of the few comments to this piece so far is mixed, but falls on the side of defending a wall. Personally, I’m not wed to the idea of a wall, so long as we’re able to shut the spigot of illegal immigration by some other means, or at least dramatically lessen the flow. But the strong aftertaste of this piece is that even if all talk of a wall ceased, the author and those who share his convictions simply would shift their animus to whatever replaced it. The point isn’t really the wall, it’s the resistance to open borders and an osmotic process that would pull millions of the hopeless impoverished to this side of the border to crash our social welfare systems, our standard of living and alter our culture forevermore. But some see no relative superior value to our culture, and they’re wrong.
The global reaction to millions of displaced hoping for better lives elsewhere is quite understandable. Cultures built the relative wealth of industrialized societies; and cultures resulted in the dreadful conditions that cause millions of people to seek better lives by abandoning their own. What is it about those failed societies that is so valuable that some yearn to allow illegal immigrants in unassimilable numbers to come here, eventually to vote and change ours to look more like theirs?
Walls are not fantasies. As much as anything else, they’re statements by peoples that their cultures have value and that they’re not giving them up without a fight.
The global reaction to millions of displaced hoping for better lives elsewhere is quite understandable. Cultures built the relative wealth of industrialized societies; and cultures resulted in the dreadful conditions that cause millions of people to seek better lives by abandoning their own. What is it about those failed societies that is so valuable that some yearn to allow illegal immigrants in unassimilable numbers to come here, eventually to vote and change ours to look more like theirs?
Walls are not fantasies. As much as anything else, they’re statements by peoples that their cultures have value and that they’re not giving them up without a fight.
54
Just imagine if this posting was written on October 14, 1900. Imagine references to the symbolism of “the wall” were replaced with references to our unrefined immigration policies of that time. Hindsight gives us a good lens for us to see and recognize the xenophobic ignorance subtext of this response to the article.
9
American culture has always adopted to new cultures, be it, Italians, Irish, European Jews or Cubans. Why is this different?
5
“Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.”
...naw, just kidding!
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.”
...naw, just kidding!
174
Maybe a wall all along the full border is a fantasy. But some partial wall that is symbolic of the US enforcing its borders is certainly doable.
The NYT is for open borders and does not recognize the illegality of those aliens who cross or stay without approval. This article is just propaganda to reiterate the NYT's owners and editors and writers opinions, but headlined as something that other people have said.
It's not even a nice try NYT. It's getting tired. Why am I paying for this nonsense that isn't really an article, and is just a propaganda piece? I feel like I'm reading Pravda these days.
The NYT is for open borders and does not recognize the illegality of those aliens who cross or stay without approval. This article is just propaganda to reiterate the NYT's owners and editors and writers opinions, but headlined as something that other people have said.
It's not even a nice try NYT. It's getting tired. Why am I paying for this nonsense that isn't really an article, and is just a propaganda piece? I feel like I'm reading Pravda these days.
35
Just another one of those GOP delusions that we're all forced to deal with in an on-going basis. Maybe if they took the profits out of the guns, drugs, and the exploited humans that cross the border, we wouldn't need a wall.
7
I should live to see the day that this unbearable rag publishes a story with actual facts, yes REAL facts.
obama has NOT deported more than any other president, in fact, he has deported FAR less than any recent one - he simply changed the way the number is counted by including those turned away at the border. The actual number is no where near 2.5 MM.
This "publication" has long, long, lost any credibility on this topic, with its pathetic, relentless attacks on the Trump campaign - funded by those with a vested financial interest in retaining the illegal alien flow such as its owner Carlos Slim. Just wish it would go bankrupt already so the propaganda would cease.
obama has NOT deported more than any other president, in fact, he has deported FAR less than any recent one - he simply changed the way the number is counted by including those turned away at the border. The actual number is no where near 2.5 MM.
This "publication" has long, long, lost any credibility on this topic, with its pathetic, relentless attacks on the Trump campaign - funded by those with a vested financial interest in retaining the illegal alien flow such as its owner Carlos Slim. Just wish it would go bankrupt already so the propaganda would cease.
17
"obama has NOT deported more than any other president, in fact, he has deported FAR less than any recent one"....No matter what fairytale you get from Fox News, it is a fact that under the Obama Administration illegal immigration into the U.S. is at a 45 year low. Did you read that - it is at a 45 year low.
50
Is there a liberal who can communicate like an adult, without juvenile accusations like "you watch FOX NEWS!"
First off, there is no way to precisely determine that illegals have reduced in numbers since they are by definition, hiding in the shadows and not seeking to be found. I do see the same number of bike restaurant delivery men, busboys and men hanging out at street corners around the country waiting to be picked up for construction projects today as I did ten and 20 years ago, so not really sure what dreamworld you live in. I also haven't seen an uptick in fast food restaurants hiring poor blacks and teens, so there must still be lots of illegals.
BTW, I don't own a TV or get my news from Fox, so keep flailing in the wind, or try to deal with actually be able to defend your claims without childish accusations.
First off, there is no way to precisely determine that illegals have reduced in numbers since they are by definition, hiding in the shadows and not seeking to be found. I do see the same number of bike restaurant delivery men, busboys and men hanging out at street corners around the country waiting to be picked up for construction projects today as I did ten and 20 years ago, so not really sure what dreamworld you live in. I also haven't seen an uptick in fast food restaurants hiring poor blacks and teens, so there must still be lots of illegals.
BTW, I don't own a TV or get my news from Fox, so keep flailing in the wind, or try to deal with actually be able to defend your claims without childish accusations.
2
This is how real journalism works. Thoughtful, non-judgmental, and thorough questioning and observation on one of the most complex issues of our time. I learned a great deal and want to learn more Mr. Walsh enlightens without rancor. Well done sir!
9
No one wins from illegal labor - the workers are exploited, live in constant fear, & endure unsafe and illegal work environments. The death, sexual abuse and suffering caused by the cartels and human traffickers adds to the misery.
The 'native' workers watch their wages stagnate or decline as opportunities are taken away, especially from minorities who compete for he same entry level jobs or unskilled jobs.
Add in resentment over 'illegals' not paying taxes while taking advantage of free schooling, food, healthcare, and housing paid for by natives.
Solution is a guest worker program for industries historically dependent on migrant labor - such as agriculture, textiles, meat packing - and a ban on families and children. Workers, over table. legally employed, in the system.
Not dependents.
The 'native' workers watch their wages stagnate or decline as opportunities are taken away, especially from minorities who compete for he same entry level jobs or unskilled jobs.
Add in resentment over 'illegals' not paying taxes while taking advantage of free schooling, food, healthcare, and housing paid for by natives.
Solution is a guest worker program for industries historically dependent on migrant labor - such as agriculture, textiles, meat packing - and a ban on families and children. Workers, over table. legally employed, in the system.
Not dependents.
39
Why do we need a guest worker program? We already have an oversupply of labor. Why do we need to import more? Industries that do not pay decent enough wages to attract workers should not be allowed to import more docile workers.
8
And all those who willing employ illegals? Why has the debate dropped them as perpetrators? What would the affect be if the job opportunities collapsed due to enforcement of existing regulations? A day without, a year without, Mexicans?
41
Well, sure, but that only points out the utter futility of the proposed "grand bargain" - a path to citizenship in return for a secure border. Because the border will never be secure, no matter how high you make the wall.
6
Rare agreement between conservatives and liberals: the wall will not work! One reason: white Americans will not labor doing landscaping in 110 degree weather in Phoenix or stand in offal in an Iowa packing plant. Immigrants legal or otherwise aren't taking your jobs they're doing jobs you won't. Their cultural differences enrich our lives just as prior immigrants from Europe and Asia have. They want what your immigrant ancestors wanted a better life. The fact that they're brown doesn't make them bad just recognizable.
132
When ICE raids packing plants, the packers increase wages and long lines of American workers form to apply for the jobs. Only a tiny percent of illegal immigrants work on farms. American farmers can legally hire all the seasonal migrant labor they want through the federal H-2A Temporary Agricultural Worker program, but they have to pay them fair wages, provide humane working conditions and honor contracts, so many hire illegals.
4
Sure they will. I personally would do landscaping. Mowing lawns, digging gardens, outdoors work that gets you exercise--a lot of people would do that. In my hometown, there is a large meat packing plant. It has traditionally been a fantastic employer for locals. The plant gets a lot of applications. They publish their safety record and follow all employment laws. As yet, the plant has resisted the trend to bring in illegals to do the work.
Of course, the employer has to pay people and follow minimum safety requirements. With out current system, employers who wish to are free to dispense with the latter and to abuse foreign nationals, all while becoming rich and undercutting those employers who want to follow the rules. That is not a good system.
Of course, the employer has to pay people and follow minimum safety requirements. With out current system, employers who wish to are free to dispense with the latter and to abuse foreign nationals, all while becoming rich and undercutting those employers who want to follow the rules. That is not a good system.
8
Funny, but white Americans did more than their share in the deserts of Iraq and Afghanistan. Fact is, white Americans will do anything, if the price is right.
5
No border barrier is going to stop illegal immigration, and the federal government has demonstrated that it cannot enforce immigration laws on its own. We can stop illegal immigration by passing congressional legislation that empower states, counties and cities to enact and enforce laws that mirror federal immigration laws. This means that states, counties and cities could make it unlawful for illegal immigrants to reside or be present within their jurisdictions. It means state or local police could arrest and charge people for being unlawfully present in their jurisdiction. It means local jurisdictions could demand proof of citizenship, such as a driver’s license or other state-issued identification. It means cities could demand proof of citizenship or lawful immigration status for all transactions, including utility hookups. We should change policy to automatically deny asylum to anyone who enters the country illegally and amend the citizenship clause to grant birthright citizenship only to babies born to a U.S. parent or U.S. parents. Once these safeguards are in place, we should tear down the Border Fence and grant permanent legal status to illegal immigrants who have established roots in America.
6
No we should not grant amnesty for all illegals. All that means is we'll get more of them.
2
How come no mention of sanctions, punitive sanctions on companies and small businesses that employ illegal immigrants. What about homeowners who have brown people doing their yard work or the multitude of people, especially in the southwest who visit Home Depot, not to shop inside, but to pile immigrants into their pick up trucks to perform labor at their homes.
Most of your suggestions are reasonable, excepting the US birth right limitation, but they're all directed at the marginalized people in this country who come here only because the demand for them exists.
Most of your suggestions are reasonable, excepting the US birth right limitation, but they're all directed at the marginalized people in this country who come here only because the demand for them exists.
2
Show me your papers. Awesome.
2
Donald Trump is branded xenophobic because he has proposed building a border wall. However, Hillary Clinton agrees with Trump on the need for a border barrier. They differ only in regards to architecture and funding. As a senator, she voted for a comprehensive immigration bill that, if passed, would have directed Homeland Security to implement a “Southern Border Fencing Strategy, adding 700 miles of fencing to the already existing Border Fence. After the bill failed, Hillary said “It is obvious there is no more defining issue in our nation today than stopping illegal immigration. The most basic obligation of any government is to secure the Nation's borders. One issue in which there appears to be a consensus between the Senate and the House is on the issue of building a secure fence. So rather than wait until comprehensive legislation is enacted, we should move forward on targeted legislation which is effective and meaningful. The legislation today provides over 700 miles of fencing within 18 months.” During her present campaign, Hillary said "I voted numerous times when I was a senator to spend money to build a barrier to try to prevent illegal immigrants from coming in.” Hillary’s fence is no less xenophobic than Trump’s wall. They would serve the same purpose.
5
The only people who benefited from the wall were:
1. Spineless cowards who refer to themselves as "Congressmen" while taking political contributions from the narco traffickers and alien smugglers. .
2. Boeing shareholders who reaped the profits from the $2 billion no-bid SBI (secure border initiative) contract.
3. "Double-dipping" retired border patrol agents, political hacks (hired based on who they knew, not on what they knew), and the myriad of private government "contractors."
Build me a 14 foot wall and I'll show you a 16 foot ladder.
1. Spineless cowards who refer to themselves as "Congressmen" while taking political contributions from the narco traffickers and alien smugglers. .
2. Boeing shareholders who reaped the profits from the $2 billion no-bid SBI (secure border initiative) contract.
3. "Double-dipping" retired border patrol agents, political hacks (hired based on who they knew, not on what they knew), and the myriad of private government "contractors."
Build me a 14 foot wall and I'll show you a 16 foot ladder.
19
Establishing and enforcing immigration laws would be far more effective than building a stupid wall.
1) Ruthlessly enforce laws against hiring illegal or improperly documented employees. We all know that this is one of the root causes of the problem.
2) ALL Americans should have a passport. Quit pretending that a national identification document is somehow "un-American." What better way is there to show that you're proud to be a citizen than by having a passport?
3) Require domestic companies to hire citizens before issuing work visas to foreigners. Make companies prove there are not citizens who can fill positions.
OF COURSE, all of these suggestions involve challenges, but they are far better than building a wall. Oh, also, they would cost money, but so what? Either Americans face the brutal fact that illegal immigration has long been the result of people turning a blind eye to the issue, or they set up a system that would make it impossible and uncomfortable for non-citizens to be here illegally.
1) Ruthlessly enforce laws against hiring illegal or improperly documented employees. We all know that this is one of the root causes of the problem.
2) ALL Americans should have a passport. Quit pretending that a national identification document is somehow "un-American." What better way is there to show that you're proud to be a citizen than by having a passport?
3) Require domestic companies to hire citizens before issuing work visas to foreigners. Make companies prove there are not citizens who can fill positions.
OF COURSE, all of these suggestions involve challenges, but they are far better than building a wall. Oh, also, they would cost money, but so what? Either Americans face the brutal fact that illegal immigration has long been the result of people turning a blind eye to the issue, or they set up a system that would make it impossible and uncomfortable for non-citizens to be here illegally.
31
Why does everyone need a passport is beyond me. Instead, we should remove the requirement for those moving to/from US, Canada and Mexico to move freely without borders and without the need of passports, much like the EU. In fact, the US should join the European countries not requiring passports. Free movement of people and labor without borders. That is the best way to make a better and more equal society worldwide.
2
To answer both John R. and you, FT:
FT, you are partially incorrect about traveling in Europe without "papers." You must either travel with a passport or other form of official documentation (a driver's license won't do) within the Schengen countries. Italians, for example, have their Carta di Identita for traveling. Oh, try getting on an international flight without a passport.
John R., as I said, Americans will always make the excuse that citizenship is "important" but they won't accept the cost of proving it. Issuing passports or other form of citizenship documents is common throughout the developed world. People, rich and poor, pay for these documents (or they have issues).
FT, you are partially incorrect about traveling in Europe without "papers." You must either travel with a passport or other form of official documentation (a driver's license won't do) within the Schengen countries. Italians, for example, have their Carta di Identita for traveling. Oh, try getting on an international flight without a passport.
John R., as I said, Americans will always make the excuse that citizenship is "important" but they won't accept the cost of proving it. Issuing passports or other form of citizenship documents is common throughout the developed world. People, rich and poor, pay for these documents (or they have issues).
2
Indeed, walls are metaphoric fantasies reflecting inchoate anxieties. But in the actual world, they are nightmares.
Massive walls have been built as defenses against the human drive to travel. The Great Wall of China, the Maginot Line, even the Berlin Wall failed to keep outsiders out and prisoners in. In Berlin, a museum celebrates those who escaped the East. Another museum in El Paso reminds us that the Border Patrol started in the Labor Dept and that border enforcement has long been entangled with the inequities of labor exploitation of immigrants to this continent, both native-born and more recently arrived.
Fans of security might consider that the most secure border in the world lies along the 38th parallel separating Korean families with a deep scar of the Cold War. But there is no wall. Instead, there are miles of fencing, a no-man's land, filled with landmines. But the physical barrier does not secure this border.
Extending outward from the so-called "Joint Security Area," tens of thousands of soldiers, fully armed and enabled to summarily execute trespassers -- playing both judge and jury -- presumably with legal standing based on the continuing state of war between the Koreas.
Despite an armistice, the Koreas remain war after 66 years with no end in sight. Is endless war with our neighbors really the way we want to regulate labor markets in the US? Wouldn't it be better to work on constructing an economy with adequate opportunities for all?
Massive walls have been built as defenses against the human drive to travel. The Great Wall of China, the Maginot Line, even the Berlin Wall failed to keep outsiders out and prisoners in. In Berlin, a museum celebrates those who escaped the East. Another museum in El Paso reminds us that the Border Patrol started in the Labor Dept and that border enforcement has long been entangled with the inequities of labor exploitation of immigrants to this continent, both native-born and more recently arrived.
Fans of security might consider that the most secure border in the world lies along the 38th parallel separating Korean families with a deep scar of the Cold War. But there is no wall. Instead, there are miles of fencing, a no-man's land, filled with landmines. But the physical barrier does not secure this border.
Extending outward from the so-called "Joint Security Area," tens of thousands of soldiers, fully armed and enabled to summarily execute trespassers -- playing both judge and jury -- presumably with legal standing based on the continuing state of war between the Koreas.
Despite an armistice, the Koreas remain war after 66 years with no end in sight. Is endless war with our neighbors really the way we want to regulate labor markets in the US? Wouldn't it be better to work on constructing an economy with adequate opportunities for all?
17
Bravo. Well written and with great photography.
7
A wall is a false sense of security, much like home security systems. Anyone committed to cross into the US will do it, wall or no wall.
14
having removed myself from the corporeal being I am a human. i live on earth. i know nothing and i do know that the earth belongs to all. now man has made law to prevent me from being where ever i want. well i respect earth and do not respect law. i am human. yeah i would keep coming back to the border also. if i know it is better on the other side. and if it is not better i will find that out all on my own
2
I don't see how you can responsibly discuss the wall without mentioning the fact that from 2009-2014 more Mexicans immigrants are leaving rather than entering the U.S.
103
Because while Mexicans are heading home, there are far more new immigrants coming in from Honduras (including the featured person in this article), Guatemala, etc.
Which is not to say that a wall makes any sense.
Which is not to say that a wall makes any sense.
2
Illegal immigration is not just about Mexicans. Look at the horde coming from Central America and now from countries like Pakistan, Erirtrea etc. It used to be Mexican but now it is people from many countries whom we don't want. It is easy for a terrorist to come into the US this way.
4
By and large immigrants come over the border from Mexico to work. Look on any rooftop or construction site in DFW and you will see a bunch of Hispanic workers sweating in the heat, doing labor that most residents don't want to do. Look at the lawn care workers, the maintenance workers, the restaurant kitchen help. If you want to slow down illegal immigration, you have to target the employers.
Only people who live in places like NYC and Rhode Island think you can build an effective "wall" across the 1000s of miles of border along the Rio Grande and west. What a waste.
Only people who live in places like NYC and Rhode Island think you can build an effective "wall" across the 1000s of miles of border along the Rio Grande and west. What a waste.
168
Don't you think people in NYC and Rhode Island also need roofers in summer, lawn care (perhaps not in NYC), maintenance workers, restaurant kitchen hep, etc.? By that I don't mean build a wall, just the opposite. Let them come in and given them immigration and citizenship rights.
Before the Mexicans took over the building trades, they employed millions of African Americans and afforded them a middle-class living.
It's not true that illegal immigrants do work Americans will not do--they will do work at wages below what Americans will tolerate. Then they require subsidies by taxpayers to be kept afloat. Illegal immigration benefits employers and immigrants, and impoverishes middle-class Americans.
It's not true that illegal immigrants do work Americans will not do--they will do work at wages below what Americans will tolerate. Then they require subsidies by taxpayers to be kept afloat. Illegal immigration benefits employers and immigrants, and impoverishes middle-class Americans.
9
To Real Texan:
It used to be that teenage boys got their first jobs of working for someone else by cutting their neighbors' lawns, and neighborhood girls babysat. And then, they and moved up to working at restaurants. I had two sets of middle to upper-middle class friends who, as teenagers, cleaned up after other people . One cleaned a large home for nuns. (This included the bathrooms and kitchen.) The other went to a vacation town for a summer to clean hotel rooms.
Now most teenagers cannot find work. The illegal migrants have taken all the jobs.
It used to be that teenage boys got their first jobs of working for someone else by cutting their neighbors' lawns, and neighborhood girls babysat. And then, they and moved up to working at restaurants. I had two sets of middle to upper-middle class friends who, as teenagers, cleaned up after other people . One cleaned a large home for nuns. (This included the bathrooms and kitchen.) The other went to a vacation town for a summer to clean hotel rooms.
Now most teenagers cannot find work. The illegal migrants have taken all the jobs.
7
Recently a wise man, AKA a comedian, stated that "2000 years ago the Chinese built a wall and they still don't have any Mexicans". Yes they did and no they don't. However shortly, in historic terms, after its completion Genghis Kahn and his Mongols came over, through, or around it and conquered the Northern Chinese dynasty of some 50 million people on his way to building the largest contiguous empire in the history of our planet. In other words "If you don't study history you are bound to repeat it".
78
And he was horsing around.
1
The idea of building a wall is so dumb, I can hardly believe anyone would fall for the idea. How hard is it to dig underneath or climb over the top? But more to the point, nearly 40% of the people now in the country illegally have over stayed their visas. 600,000 people cross our southern boarder legally everyday at check points, and anyone of them if they chose could simply keep walking and become an illegal immigrant. The solution is to require everyone to present a validated bio-identity card in order to work, and make the card easy for employers to check like swiping a credit card. And just for the record, illegal immigration into the U.S. under the Obama Administration is at a 45 year low.
17
If there are fewer people who are illegally trying to cross the border, it could be because our economy is still in the dumps or because Trump’s stance against illegal immigration has been so well received by the country as a whole.
But we really do not know how many people continue to come here illegally.
After 9-11, the Bush Administration quickly hired a great many more border agents out of fear that terrorists could slip over our southern border. The Texas Tribune carried out a year long investigation into the border patrol. It found that the agents were hired so quickly that their backgrounds were not thoroughly investigated. Drug cartels realized they could get their members into the border control, and did so.
After months of painstaking investigations, the federal government has caught and successfully prosecuted some of these cartel members, who, as border patrol agents, were allowing illegal drugs and buses of illegal immigrants across the border. The question is how many cartel members are still working for the border patrol.
We do not know how many illegal immigrants continue to be waved across the border.
But we really do not know how many people continue to come here illegally.
After 9-11, the Bush Administration quickly hired a great many more border agents out of fear that terrorists could slip over our southern border. The Texas Tribune carried out a year long investigation into the border patrol. It found that the agents were hired so quickly that their backgrounds were not thoroughly investigated. Drug cartels realized they could get their members into the border control, and did so.
After months of painstaking investigations, the federal government has caught and successfully prosecuted some of these cartel members, who, as border patrol agents, were allowing illegal drugs and buses of illegal immigrants across the border. The question is how many cartel members are still working for the border patrol.
We do not know how many illegal immigrants continue to be waved across the border.
4
This paper always writes an incomplete assessment.
Mass migrations have occurred many time in the historical record. The Greeks, Persians and other groups were not the original inhabitants of Greece or Persia.
Along with The Hindu invaders of India, they came down off the steppe and conquered. The people already living there were either killed or enslaved. When these migrations have been successful that has been the fate of the people already living there. We did it to the Native Americans. Why would the illegals not do it to us?
Mass migrations have occurred many time in the historical record. The Greeks, Persians and other groups were not the original inhabitants of Greece or Persia.
Along with The Hindu invaders of India, they came down off the steppe and conquered. The people already living there were either killed or enslaved. When these migrations have been successful that has been the fate of the people already living there. We did it to the Native Americans. Why would the illegals not do it to us?
13
The Native Americans attempted to stop European migration, but lack the power. We have the power to stop illegal immigration, but the current administration works to prevent the deportation of illegal immigrants except for those who commit serious crimes. It also works to make illegal immigration more convenient by issuing illegal immigrants work permit and temporary immunity to deportation.
2
How is the comparison of Mexican immigrants to Hindu invaders or European colonists at all applicable. The United States is the wealthiest and most powerful country on earth and we are still predominantly made up of non-Hispanic whites. The population of non-Hispanic white Americans is greater than the population of all of Mexico. We are not about to be conquered, much less killed or enslaved, by illegal immigrants. The immigrants aren't even attempting to do so. Most are merely looking for work so that they can provide themselves and their families with a better life.
I do not know the answer to migrant situation, but arguments such as yours are not founded on the potentially legitimate concerns about the negative economic impact of mass immigration,: instead they just reek of racism and xenophobia.
I do not know the answer to migrant situation, but arguments such as yours are not founded on the potentially legitimate concerns about the negative economic impact of mass immigration,: instead they just reek of racism and xenophobia.
5
"the current administration works to prevent the deportation of illegal immigrants"--really? when it has deported 2.5 MILLION? I doubt all of them have committed serious crimes.
5
If you want to stop of immigration from Mexican people stop accepting all the Money from corrupted politicians . They bring billions that stole from hard working Mexicans and buy real state and invest the money in USA. I do not see many people complaining about. It is not responsibility of USA to fix Mexican problems, however making difficult to corrupt politicians around the world to bring the money into USA will help to diminish many problems and reason why people want to immigrate to countries with better economies and job possibilities.
7
The reason the Times is trying so hard to convince America that illegal immigration cannot be stopped is because they do not want it stopped. Stopping illegal immigration may be hard, but stopping global warming or ending world poverty are much more difficult, but the Times never tells us to give up because it can't be done.
Walls may not be perfect, but they help, and that is what's important. The policies the Times supports would do the reverse -- they would encourage a flood of new illegal immigration. From the point of view of the Times this would be great, because they see illegal immigration not as a problem, but as a solution to a problem. The problem is that people in other countries are poor. The solution is for them to come here. Preferable this would be done legally, but if the people of the United States are too mean spirited to open their borders and welcome the world, then illegal immigration is the next best thing, and *should* be encouraged. The last thing the Times wants is to see anyone making a serious effort to control illegal immigration -- the terrible danger is that they might succeed!
Walls may not be perfect, but they help, and that is what's important. The policies the Times supports would do the reverse -- they would encourage a flood of new illegal immigration. From the point of view of the Times this would be great, because they see illegal immigration not as a problem, but as a solution to a problem. The problem is that people in other countries are poor. The solution is for them to come here. Preferable this would be done legally, but if the people of the United States are too mean spirited to open their borders and welcome the world, then illegal immigration is the next best thing, and *should* be encouraged. The last thing the Times wants is to see anyone making a serious effort to control illegal immigration -- the terrible danger is that they might succeed!
62
The NYTimes does not care if illegal immigration increases or decreases or (as it actually has from Mexico in the past few years) reverses.
The NYTimes does try and document reality and realistic options. The folks who live along the border -- of all political positions -- say a wall along the border is silly, or unworkable, or useless in stopping all border crossing.
Please point to an editorial or article that advocates for an uncontrolled inrush of immigrants from the NYTimes (or anyone else).
Our undocumented immigrants are increasingly people who arrived on visa's and have overstayed them. Walls do absolutely nothing to control this.
Our Republican congress has long refused to strengthen E-Verify so it could be used reliably and robustly to verify status to work, and apply to a greater class of workers. Congress is also cheerfully allowing massive abuse of the H1 Visa system to allow wage-busting from businesses who contribute to Congressional re-election campaigns. Increasing our border defenses has been ongoing--and is not a particularly cost-effective mechanism to manage lawful visitors from around the world, and minimize unlawful visitors.
There is a lively debate about the value or cost of immigrants, documented and undocumented that the NYTimes has documented.
I have been reading the NYTimes pretty carefully for a while now, and find no evidence that the NYTimes has been an advocate of illegal immigration (or illegal anything else, for that matter).
The NYTimes does try and document reality and realistic options. The folks who live along the border -- of all political positions -- say a wall along the border is silly, or unworkable, or useless in stopping all border crossing.
Please point to an editorial or article that advocates for an uncontrolled inrush of immigrants from the NYTimes (or anyone else).
Our undocumented immigrants are increasingly people who arrived on visa's and have overstayed them. Walls do absolutely nothing to control this.
Our Republican congress has long refused to strengthen E-Verify so it could be used reliably and robustly to verify status to work, and apply to a greater class of workers. Congress is also cheerfully allowing massive abuse of the H1 Visa system to allow wage-busting from businesses who contribute to Congressional re-election campaigns. Increasing our border defenses has been ongoing--and is not a particularly cost-effective mechanism to manage lawful visitors from around the world, and minimize unlawful visitors.
There is a lively debate about the value or cost of immigrants, documented and undocumented that the NYTimes has documented.
I have been reading the NYTimes pretty carefully for a while now, and find no evidence that the NYTimes has been an advocate of illegal immigration (or illegal anything else, for that matter).
8
Our leaders invaded Vietnam and we got nothing in return, then they invaded Iraq and we got nothing in return, then they invaded Afghanistan and we got nothing in return...If our leaders invade Mexico; we get territory, end the migrant problem, end the drug scourge and bring peace to Mexico...
2
The problem now is not so much Mexico as it is Central AMerica.
5
The idea that "nothing will keep them from coming" is dishonest. Even though a wall is idiotic, that doesn't mean that nothing can be done. All you have to do is make it disadvantageous for migrants to come. There are numerous ways of doing that.
Look at Australias "turn the boats arund" policy which basically solved their problems. America can have, if not the same, then their own version of that. It just needs to play a very tough game with caught illegal migrants. If that is
desirable or moral is another question.
Look at Australias "turn the boats arund" policy which basically solved their problems. America can have, if not the same, then their own version of that. It just needs to play a very tough game with caught illegal migrants. If that is
desirable or moral is another question.
45
the fix in my view is to heavily penalize anyone who employs them.....that is the easiest way to solve the problem. Play tough with companies and other employers.
8
Beyond any and all conversation about walls, obstructions, violent or semi-violent measures to exclude immigrants to America, there looms a mountain of history that diminishes all else: the glory and grandeur of the American experiment in response to the universal yearning for freedom, equality, and opportunity that has built and sustained our flawed but great nation. This unprecedented, though imperfect, mechanism by which our country has welcomed, absorbed, and transformed peoples from all over the world whose character has changed America, as much as America has changed them, is the origin of the continual renewal of the American identity and the American dream.
No amount of legislation or xenophobia could ever quell that yearning towards a better life, nor the will of parents to provide for their children, that animates the flow towards our shores. We can stand on our beaches and slap at the waves, they'll flow around us. It's a great problem, but the answer to it is to strive for a great solution...and never think that some physical bulwark can crush or overwhelm the eternal human spirit.
No amount of legislation or xenophobia could ever quell that yearning towards a better life, nor the will of parents to provide for their children, that animates the flow towards our shores. We can stand on our beaches and slap at the waves, they'll flow around us. It's a great problem, but the answer to it is to strive for a great solution...and never think that some physical bulwark can crush or overwhelm the eternal human spirit.
20
Oh enough already with the cheap sentiment. Let Latinos remake their own nations instead of invading ours. Let them have better lives by making demands on their own leaders rather than this country.
28
Immigration isn’t an issue. The issue is illegal immigration. We don’t need illegal immigration to spur the economy, sustain population levels or revitalized U.S. culture. We can increase legal immigration simply by raising legal immigration quotas. Millions are waiting in line. Legal immigration produces a highly diverse stream of immigrants who come speaking a multitude of languages from a multitude of countries and cultures. Their tremendous diversity encourages them to assimilate and acculturate into American society rather than coalescing in racial and ethnic enclaves. They also tend to possess the skills and education required to flourish in U.S. society. Illegal immigration produces a non-diverse, low-skilled and poorly educated stream of migrants who lack the skills and education required to assimilate, acculturate and flourish in U.S. society. Since the majority of illegal immigrants are Hispanics who settle in states like California or Texas that already have Hispanic majorities, they decrease rather than increase diversity
60
Agree with Cat in the Hat today. Afghans emptying into Iran, Great Britain and Germany. Africans becoming Italians. North Africans attempting to be French. It would be hard but ultimately better to push their own governments for a better life in their countries. The cunning and wiliness that economic migrants use to sneak into the United States and Europe should be used to fight those corrupt in their own countries. If you never start you never finish.
9
A classic illustration of dishonesty in the immigration debate. The concern of the author is not that a "wall" is ineffective, but rather than steps to prevent illegal immigration have been proven to be effective.
No form of law enforcement is fool-proof, but the idea regardless of the law being enforced is ALWAYS to raise the costs of non-compliance: make it more difficult to get away with violating the law and thereby: (a) prevent a greater portion of those attempting entry from succeeding; and (b) deter more people from trying.
It may well be that the costs of a full-border wall exceed the pro-enforcement benefit, but it is clear that the sticking point on immigration reform is not xenophobia (I, like a clear majority of Americans, I think) are open to regularizing the status of those already here, but rather the position that has emerged in the last several years of pro-immigration "advocacy" that enforcement is somehow taking away the "right" to come here without authorization.
The nature of enforcing a border is that those who are denied entry (or who are later deported) have sad (sometimes heartbreaking) stories to tell. My assumption is that they are overwhelmingly good people. But that's not the way you make immigration policy. You do so on the basis of what is in the national self-interest.
No form of law enforcement is fool-proof, but the idea regardless of the law being enforced is ALWAYS to raise the costs of non-compliance: make it more difficult to get away with violating the law and thereby: (a) prevent a greater portion of those attempting entry from succeeding; and (b) deter more people from trying.
It may well be that the costs of a full-border wall exceed the pro-enforcement benefit, but it is clear that the sticking point on immigration reform is not xenophobia (I, like a clear majority of Americans, I think) are open to regularizing the status of those already here, but rather the position that has emerged in the last several years of pro-immigration "advocacy" that enforcement is somehow taking away the "right" to come here without authorization.
The nature of enforcing a border is that those who are denied entry (or who are later deported) have sad (sometimes heartbreaking) stories to tell. My assumption is that they are overwhelmingly good people. But that's not the way you make immigration policy. You do so on the basis of what is in the national self-interest.
70
Your basic rights should not be determined by where you are born and who your parents are. Democratic ideals suggest that all people should be treated equal.
2
Time to fine the employers of illegals.
1
The Wall is understood to be an infrastructure welfare program for red border states and the security-incarceration-construction industrial complex that thrives there.
in other words: PORK.
in other words: PORK.
195
(Not Mark) No, the wall is a first step to enforcement of our immigration laws. It is not the last, only the first. Next, stop catch and release. If you are caught you go to a detention center and then you are either sent back to your country or bused back over to Mexico. Next is e-verify and fines and jail time for employers who hire illegals. Jail time for illegals who steal SS#s and then deportation. We must control our border or there is no point in having laws at all. Of course, laws are really just for us little people, as we have seen.
4
A more wall will not solve the problem, but will slow the flow. We also need the will and resources to track and deport those who have overstayed their visas.
43
You are correct.
Even if the wall won't stop all it most likely will stop many.
This is a good reason to build it.
This is why the government in Israel builds walls to stop people from crossing the border.
It does work.
Even if the wall won't stop all it most likely will stop many.
This is a good reason to build it.
This is why the government in Israel builds walls to stop people from crossing the border.
It does work.
21
Wonderful idea. So the Palentinians now build tunnels under the wall that has been constructed. The best idea to remedy the situation is to craft an immigration plan that allows immigrants the privilege to become a citizen by learning english, paying taxes on their earinings and avoiding any felonies. The government should go back in history and familiarize themselves with the prohibition era. Prohibition failed miserably. So will building a border wall.
4
Four million dollars a mile and guards are still needed every mile or so. And how long is the border with Mexico? Don't forget, part of it is a river that zigs and zags across the border or in some places is the border is a line down the middle of the river. How do you fence that?
Israel is a very small country and a lot of what they fence has been stolen from the other side.
Israel is a very small country and a lot of what they fence has been stolen from the other side.
1
"The Democrats want votes and the Republicans want cheap labor."