Modesty is an inherently human trait. Moreover, attempting to dismiss it to accommodate transgender individuals falsely assumes they care less about modesty than their cisgender peers. An experiment with such a flawed premise would be doomed to quickly fail.
57
This is a very thoughtful article about a very complex issue. There is a binary bias built into most human cognition however this is not how the universe works. Challenging the binary assumption is an affront to many cultural norms. It would be wise for all of us to begin thinking in multivariae an shaded terms to better model reality. Yet this is not an easy task and I doubt that most of us are up to it.
11
Personally, I don't want to strip down in front of ANYONE unless by my own choice, as it violates my sense of privacy. I don't want others to see me undressed, and I don't want to see others undressed.
Why not make locker rooms that provide some privacy, even if it's just cubicles with curtains? This applies even more to schools (where one is coercively required to undress) than to gyms (where one can choose to go, or not). A wish for privacy ought to be respected.
I am the only person who should be entitled to control the exposure of my own body; this is a fundamental human (and Constitutional) right.
Why not make locker rooms that provide some privacy, even if it's just cubicles with curtains? This applies even more to schools (where one is coercively required to undress) than to gyms (where one can choose to go, or not). A wish for privacy ought to be respected.
I am the only person who should be entitled to control the exposure of my own body; this is a fundamental human (and Constitutional) right.
63
It is simply incredible that the American people are being forced to surrender long held ideas of privacy and go along with an executive fiat that anatomy is irrelevant to gender. I am beginning to think there just might be something to this 'war on women' business.
77
Professor Adler is dead right that changes on core issues like gender identity come better from the bottom up. Exhibit A: Roe v. Wade, bringing on a culture war that was avoidable. Does anyone seriously think today that we would not have gotten to the same rough truce on choice/life through continued (rather than truncated) state experimentation on abortion control, and scientific evolution on procreative-choice drugs? Similarly today, you can just see these adversaries begging the courts to usher in another culture war. For what? Locker room rights? Hopefully, this time, the Supreme Court will act more like the adults in the room, recalling the sorry history of a rushed Roe.
8
"... some federal agencies have been sidestepping Congress.." Gosh. Wonder who led this parade?
34
I assumed all this would happen when the Prez issued another fiat to change the structure of the male female equation. Too soon too soon and now we reap the wind. Good Lord, why not thoughtful dialogue before a swift uncompromising action that turns the whole issue on its back...Thanks, Bam.
30
Generally speaking, does anyone really wish to disrobe, defecate, or urinate in other than complete privacy? Having to share a room for these activities is barbaric.
60
Americans have lost their minds. Nature designates humans as male (XY chromosomal set) or female (XX); this difference shows up in EVERY cell of the body. No matter what hormones or mutilating surgery one undertakes, a cell under a microscope clearly reveals birth sex.
When a 75-pound anorexic insists that she is obese, or a man insists that he is really Jesus Christ or a dolphin, we get that they are delusional. But if a man says he is really a female trapped in the wrong body, or vice versa, we indulge that delusion?
This hyperfocus on transgenders (a creation of modern for-profit medicine), a tiny, tinyfraction of the population distracts from the very real and ongoing oppression of women and black people who make up the bulk of the US population. Perhaps brain-addled folks can think of themselves as progressive for championing transgender rights, yet women are nowhere safe and police continue to get away with murdering unarmed black Americans?
Christianized American culture is backward and diseased in its view of the body and the sexes. At German spas, locker rooms are unsegregated and women, children and men changed into bathing suits without incident. The US remains too steeped in sexism, racism, a view of women as sex objects and the ideologies of male and white supremacy to be able to share locker rooms.
One in 3 women is victimized by sexual assault, but hey, let's downplay that and make sure transgenders can poo and change where they want. Duh.
When a 75-pound anorexic insists that she is obese, or a man insists that he is really Jesus Christ or a dolphin, we get that they are delusional. But if a man says he is really a female trapped in the wrong body, or vice versa, we indulge that delusion?
This hyperfocus on transgenders (a creation of modern for-profit medicine), a tiny, tinyfraction of the population distracts from the very real and ongoing oppression of women and black people who make up the bulk of the US population. Perhaps brain-addled folks can think of themselves as progressive for championing transgender rights, yet women are nowhere safe and police continue to get away with murdering unarmed black Americans?
Christianized American culture is backward and diseased in its view of the body and the sexes. At German spas, locker rooms are unsegregated and women, children and men changed into bathing suits without incident. The US remains too steeped in sexism, racism, a view of women as sex objects and the ideologies of male and white supremacy to be able to share locker rooms.
One in 3 women is victimized by sexual assault, but hey, let's downplay that and make sure transgenders can poo and change where they want. Duh.
96
"The characterization of sex as “internal sense of gender” is already spreading throughout federal agencies’ anti-discrimination policies."
As a former women's studies major who went to college in the '90's, I learned that gender is a fluid, performative, social construct. Sex was the biological part, gender was the identity. Suddenly sex is now a "sense"? That certainly doesn't make "sense" to me.
Frankly, the conversation needs to broaden - if gender is performative, how do we know what it means to "feel like" a girl or a boy? It seems to me that transgender identity is a byproduct of patriarchal gender constructs as it is. If people with penises could dress and behave in traditionally feminine ways without being stigmatized and people with vaginas were treated with the same rights and respect as their penis-bearing counterparts, would any of these gender performances be an issue at all?
As a former women's studies major who went to college in the '90's, I learned that gender is a fluid, performative, social construct. Sex was the biological part, gender was the identity. Suddenly sex is now a "sense"? That certainly doesn't make "sense" to me.
Frankly, the conversation needs to broaden - if gender is performative, how do we know what it means to "feel like" a girl or a boy? It seems to me that transgender identity is a byproduct of patriarchal gender constructs as it is. If people with penises could dress and behave in traditionally feminine ways without being stigmatized and people with vaginas were treated with the same rights and respect as their penis-bearing counterparts, would any of these gender performances be an issue at all?
93
"Stop teaching the sexes to hide from one another..." I cannot imagine...I grew up with the kind of body that lands women in the pages of Playboy and all I wanted in the locker room was more privacy, not less, to hide all the horror I was having to endure.
This issue is far more complex than the rights of one person - the boy who says they are a girl - would suggest. Do you abridge the rights of the many for the rights of the one? Trans folks have rights, yes. So does everyone else. Perhaps changing rooms and individual showers are a better option than simply sticking a boy who says they are a girl in the middle of an 8th grade locker room.
On some level this sounds like yet another incarnation of what males want males get, even if what they want is to be female.
This issue is far more complex than the rights of one person - the boy who says they are a girl - would suggest. Do you abridge the rights of the many for the rights of the one? Trans folks have rights, yes. So does everyone else. Perhaps changing rooms and individual showers are a better option than simply sticking a boy who says they are a girl in the middle of an 8th grade locker room.
On some level this sounds like yet another incarnation of what males want males get, even if what they want is to be female.
136
This article touches upon the heart of the matter: if male bodies have a chilling effect on the comfort of women in locker rooms, and if that is a legitimate reason to discriminate against women whose bodies are read as male. (Note that intersex people are not allowed for in this discussion, and should be.) A better question is: how can we allow for everyone's safety and the social bonding of the locker room? Seems obvious that privacy should not be disregarded for anyone -- shower curtains, changing cubicles -- and that if the privacy of girls and boys required to use locker rooms had not been disregarded in the past, these problems would never have arisen.
A policy which determines what to do when someone's attentions are unwelcome is also past due.
A policy which determines what to do when someone's attentions are unwelcome is also past due.
20
porta potties, like they have at construction sites, is the way to go...until we find out if the transgender thingy is going to last. I'll make a wild guess and predict that if we ever bring sanity to health insurance not many will want to pick up the cost of re-gendering themselves by themselves.
22
Just don't want to undress in front of, or be naked in front of, someone with male anatomy. I reserve that for private moments of my own choosing, and it has no place in the women's locker room or shower facilities. Makes me a demure girl, in the dismissive language used in this essay.
82
There's an implied vulnerability in both undressing to nakedness, and even more when relieving oneself. Even animals like house cats can be very paranoid about using their litterbox, if they don't feel safe. Privacy encompasses both of these activities.
Real privacy means not having to get undressed in front of ANYONE if you don't want to. Same sex, opposite sex, doesn't matter. And in jr high and high school plenty of kids get harassed and hassled, body-shamed, bullied, even by their same-sex peers. In adult bathrooms, there are many assaults that can occur between same-sex people, and banning gender-alternative usage isn't much of a fix IMO.
What is missing is basic civility.
I do think that locker rooms are a leveler of sorts, a sharing of common humanity. In womens' spas and bathhouses, it's democratic to see women of all shapes and sizes, all ages. The artifice that people employ on the street (attire and grooming) is gone. People show their surgery scars, and it's OK, or hopefully so. (Mens' bathhouses might be different, never went to one). But American mainstream culture doesn't celebrate communal bathing the way, say, the Japanese do.
Bathrooms, on the other hand, should have stalls that go all the way to the ground, with doors that can't be kicked in by a 6th-grade bully. That would go a long way towards erasing the fear of unisex bathrooms.
Real privacy means not having to get undressed in front of ANYONE if you don't want to. Same sex, opposite sex, doesn't matter. And in jr high and high school plenty of kids get harassed and hassled, body-shamed, bullied, even by their same-sex peers. In adult bathrooms, there are many assaults that can occur between same-sex people, and banning gender-alternative usage isn't much of a fix IMO.
What is missing is basic civility.
I do think that locker rooms are a leveler of sorts, a sharing of common humanity. In womens' spas and bathhouses, it's democratic to see women of all shapes and sizes, all ages. The artifice that people employ on the street (attire and grooming) is gone. People show their surgery scars, and it's OK, or hopefully so. (Mens' bathhouses might be different, never went to one). But American mainstream culture doesn't celebrate communal bathing the way, say, the Japanese do.
Bathrooms, on the other hand, should have stalls that go all the way to the ground, with doors that can't be kicked in by a 6th-grade bully. That would go a long way towards erasing the fear of unisex bathrooms.
56
This isn't rocket science (I know; I did rocket science).
Unless there are specific definitions for "sex", "female", and "male" in Title IX, then we need to go with the standard. For law, that is usually Black's Law Dictionary, but for something as basic as this, The Oxford English Dictionary (OED), commonly referred to as "The Guardian of the Language", should suffice. The OED clearly provides definitions for "sex", "female", and "male" that should be applicable to Title IX:
SEX, Definition 2: "Either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and most other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions."
FEMALE, Definition 1: "Of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes."
MALE, Definition 1: "Of or denoting the sex that produces gametes, especially spermatozoa, with which a female may be fertilized or inseminated to produce offspring."
If people do not like these definitions because of the resultant impact on Title IX enforcement, then they should petition Congress to create new replacement legislation. Unfortunately, schools and other public institutions and the people who use them are the victims of collateral damage in The Gender Culture Wars and that's just not right.
However, the English language itself should not have vague fluid definitions for what has been accepted as universal and bedrock.
Unless there are specific definitions for "sex", "female", and "male" in Title IX, then we need to go with the standard. For law, that is usually Black's Law Dictionary, but for something as basic as this, The Oxford English Dictionary (OED), commonly referred to as "The Guardian of the Language", should suffice. The OED clearly provides definitions for "sex", "female", and "male" that should be applicable to Title IX:
SEX, Definition 2: "Either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and most other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions."
FEMALE, Definition 1: "Of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes."
MALE, Definition 1: "Of or denoting the sex that produces gametes, especially spermatozoa, with which a female may be fertilized or inseminated to produce offspring."
If people do not like these definitions because of the resultant impact on Title IX enforcement, then they should petition Congress to create new replacement legislation. Unfortunately, schools and other public institutions and the people who use them are the victims of collateral damage in The Gender Culture Wars and that's just not right.
However, the English language itself should not have vague fluid definitions for what has been accepted as universal and bedrock.
47
Well, this is a non issue. Since I'm a dad whose kids played HS and college sports, let me tell you that kids undress together far, far less than we did when I played sports in school. In our case, in HS, exactly none. Lord, how many times did I drive stinky kids home after games?
Back in the day as a team we showered after every game, home and away, and after every practice, and after every gym class of three days per week. Today? No showering at all, and I have believe these agenda issues drive some of that. I can't explain otherwise why with all of today's so called enlightenment that kids are so shy or scared.
Back in the day as a team we showered after every game, home and away, and after every practice, and after every gym class of three days per week. Today? No showering at all, and I have believe these agenda issues drive some of that. I can't explain otherwise why with all of today's so called enlightenment that kids are so shy or scared.
23
(the cisgender girl, to use the preferred term)
Preferred by whom? I am a woman born woman and I've never heard this term before and I don't prefer it. The transgender movement does not have the right to usurp 50 years of activism and take control of how women born women identify ourselves.
Preferred by whom? I am a woman born woman and I've never heard this term before and I don't prefer it. The transgender movement does not have the right to usurp 50 years of activism and take control of how women born women identify ourselves.
154
This report, like most others on the subject, leaves out an important element. With all the phobia as to what locker room or bathroom a transgender student may use, they are a tiny minority relative to the gay community. Obviously, gay and heterosexual males or females share locker rooms, and always have, regardless of whether their sexual preferences are known or not. I don't see tests for gayness or suggestions for separate gay locker rooms or bathrooms. So why is transgender choice suddenly so important it has to go to the Supreme Court?
27
"And in an age of gender fluidity, the word is hard to define. This year the agencies told schools to interpret “sex” as a psychological condition, an “internal sense of gender,” rather than an anatomical one."
It became fluid when gender replaced sex as a descriptive term for biology. And once again psychiatry proves itself a dubious science with trying to pretend that sex is a condition. (Anything to drum up billable hours, no?) There is no doubt at all that a very small portion of the population truly has issues of actual sexual identity based on a number of complex factors. But when we are now teaching kids to believe that it is all fluid and questioning is the norm, is it any wonder we are now creating a sudden explosion of supposedly transgender individuals. This is a morass created by over zealous activists, bureaucrats and a besotted profession. Enough already.
It became fluid when gender replaced sex as a descriptive term for biology. And once again psychiatry proves itself a dubious science with trying to pretend that sex is a condition. (Anything to drum up billable hours, no?) There is no doubt at all that a very small portion of the population truly has issues of actual sexual identity based on a number of complex factors. But when we are now teaching kids to believe that it is all fluid and questioning is the norm, is it any wonder we are now creating a sudden explosion of supposedly transgender individuals. This is a morass created by over zealous activists, bureaucrats and a besotted profession. Enough already.
60
We now live in a world where one can chose to identity with something and therefore make it their own. Science and reality be damned. You can't change your DNA!
50
Be they lawyers, bureaucrats, religious folk, or struggling teenagers, when you get enough clowns together eventually you get a circus.
Are appeals made to *The Law* because compassion and empathy are too meager to create clarity? As is so often the case, social justice is ginned up as a moral crusade between the good and the evil rather than just establishing a social ecosystem in which less people are less sad.
Are appeals made to *The Law* because compassion and empathy are too meager to create clarity? As is so often the case, social justice is ginned up as a moral crusade between the good and the evil rather than just establishing a social ecosystem in which less people are less sad.
15
I vote Democratic, I tend to lean left on many issues. This is not one of them. I don't lean at all. I along with many of my friends who think similarly, do not want a society where any person is mistreated. But, the trans issue is such a small percentage of the population, and no I'm not saying that disqualifies its importance, but the constant drum beat of trans rights and then, any person who has a slightly differing view is labeled as hateful. It's outrageous. It feels threatening. No small wonder how Donald Trump manipulated his way into a Presidential election. Many people in other parts of the country are tired of being lectured and told how backward they are. On this issue, we all have mixed feelings, even those of us on the left, and maybe, just maybe we can get to a place where we understand some things better. But that doesn't happen overnight and not by court actions. To our national disgrace, black people waited a hundred years for judicial action, and the much smaller Trans movement wants instant acceptance. People aren't machines. To lump Trans in with gay is also a huge, very misleading action. Sexual identity is not the same as gender identity. Where is the correlation?
132
If transgender women were really women they would understand the reasons bio women make for privacy. But they are not. They are men and think with all the privilege that goes with it.
152
Is this country so owned lock, stock and barrel by the homosexual community that we are actually going to buy into this re-definitionist nonsense?
Unfortunately, the answer, in our new idiocracy, seems to be yes.
I suspected as much when even the courts started to adopt arguments based on ridiculously - transparent sophistry like, “Same-sex couples are no different than infertile opposite-sex couples or the ban on same-sex marriage is like the ban on interracial marriage.”
This is not an indication of progress - it’s an indication of dumbing-down.
Every day, we are becoming more and more like the characters in Hans Christian Andersen’s, “The Emperor’s New Clothes”.
Of course, I guess if we’re going to go full “dumbed-down”, why shouldn’t we compare separate bathrooms, changing rooms and showers to a kind of Apartheid? Why shouldn’t a high-school girl, who doesn’t want to change in front of a male in the locker-rooms be castigated as a bigot and a racist?
But as the author mentions, the devil is in the details and redefinition begets further redefinition until we reach the point where nothing even makes sense anymore: A woman with a penis and a menstruating man???
Have we completely lost our minds?
Even worse, if the new junk science states that humans can be trans-gender, why couldn’t we be trans-racial or trans-age?
Unfortunately, the answer, in our new idiocracy, seems to be yes.
I suspected as much when even the courts started to adopt arguments based on ridiculously - transparent sophistry like, “Same-sex couples are no different than infertile opposite-sex couples or the ban on same-sex marriage is like the ban on interracial marriage.”
This is not an indication of progress - it’s an indication of dumbing-down.
Every day, we are becoming more and more like the characters in Hans Christian Andersen’s, “The Emperor’s New Clothes”.
Of course, I guess if we’re going to go full “dumbed-down”, why shouldn’t we compare separate bathrooms, changing rooms and showers to a kind of Apartheid? Why shouldn’t a high-school girl, who doesn’t want to change in front of a male in the locker-rooms be castigated as a bigot and a racist?
But as the author mentions, the devil is in the details and redefinition begets further redefinition until we reach the point where nothing even makes sense anymore: A woman with a penis and a menstruating man???
Have we completely lost our minds?
Even worse, if the new junk science states that humans can be trans-gender, why couldn’t we be trans-racial or trans-age?
61
My! My! The lawyers are going to have a field day!
"Perhaps it’s time to retire the notion of two sexes." Well lets take that to the logical conclusion and do away with Men or Women's tennis, golf, basketball, marathons, swimming etc and just have the best players on the field regardless of the "retired" notion of sex. I wonder how that will turn out!
"Perhaps it’s time to retire the notion of two sexes." Well lets take that to the logical conclusion and do away with Men or Women's tennis, golf, basketball, marathons, swimming etc and just have the best players on the field regardless of the "retired" notion of sex. I wonder how that will turn out!
75
Bathrooms and locker rooms should be classified by hardware, not gender identification. Penises on the left, vaginas to the right.
48
How about water efficient, time efficient, space efficient urinals vs toilets. How do you handle those with gender neutrality. The privacy issues is fully solved by a partition rather than a doored stall.
2
This is an unnecessarily out-of-control issue.
Many girls, and probably boys, do not like to disrobe in front of anyone. It's not about gender. Many airports have women/men/family bathrooms and baby changing stations. That, to me, is the perfect solution. Let the person pick which they want to use. Transgender is just that and most transgender people would probably be more satisfied with the "generic" family facilities.
Many girls, and probably boys, do not like to disrobe in front of anyone. It's not about gender. Many airports have women/men/family bathrooms and baby changing stations. That, to me, is the perfect solution. Let the person pick which they want to use. Transgender is just that and most transgender people would probably be more satisfied with the "generic" family facilities.
20
Modesty: Vice or Virtue
Using the logic of some contemporary educational watchdogs, teens should be permitted, and perhaps encouraged, to watch porn so they can explore the entire range of physical couplings. Why wait to take these common college course offerings. The “try anything that is legal” (a/k/a Planned Parenthood) philosophy makes no judgments about what is best and seeks only to separate parental and religious control from teen choices. For teens, free contraceptives are just a dare to use the body before the heart and mind are ready.
Locker rooms have always been a place for pranks where boys (and presumably girls) have some fun with minimal adult supervision. Teens who want to get naked with the opposite sex should do so in adult locker rooms and adult bathrooms where they can safely explore their psychological deviance without disturbing the legitimate concerns for modesty and fun that most normal teens still value. Modesty remains an important value that coincides with respect for the opposite sex and political fitness to govern. Modesty seems to have lost all value in the Obama -Clinton-Planned Parenthood lifestyle (except the political value that is being exploited by the left).
Using the logic of some contemporary educational watchdogs, teens should be permitted, and perhaps encouraged, to watch porn so they can explore the entire range of physical couplings. Why wait to take these common college course offerings. The “try anything that is legal” (a/k/a Planned Parenthood) philosophy makes no judgments about what is best and seeks only to separate parental and religious control from teen choices. For teens, free contraceptives are just a dare to use the body before the heart and mind are ready.
Locker rooms have always been a place for pranks where boys (and presumably girls) have some fun with minimal adult supervision. Teens who want to get naked with the opposite sex should do so in adult locker rooms and adult bathrooms where they can safely explore their psychological deviance without disturbing the legitimate concerns for modesty and fun that most normal teens still value. Modesty remains an important value that coincides with respect for the opposite sex and political fitness to govern. Modesty seems to have lost all value in the Obama -Clinton-Planned Parenthood lifestyle (except the political value that is being exploited by the left).
8
The divine natural scientific reality is that there are only two DNA genetic biological evolutionary fit procreative human species sexes. The survival of the human race depends upon the LGBTQ being a tiny minority.
Treating all human beings equal with certain unalienable rights must recognize majority rule along with minority rights in a civil secular plural egalitarian divided limited powered democratic republic is complicated by socioeconomic political educational nurture.
"The law is an ass." from "Oliver Twist" by Charles Dickens. Law is gender, color, race, ethnicity, faith, socioeconomics, politics, education and history plus arithmetic. Law is not just nor fair nor moral nor objective nor humane nor humble nor empathetic. Slavery and Jim Crow were both legal.
Treating all human beings equal with certain unalienable rights must recognize majority rule along with minority rights in a civil secular plural egalitarian divided limited powered democratic republic is complicated by socioeconomic political educational nurture.
"The law is an ass." from "Oliver Twist" by Charles Dickens. Law is gender, color, race, ethnicity, faith, socioeconomics, politics, education and history plus arithmetic. Law is not just nor fair nor moral nor objective nor humane nor humble nor empathetic. Slavery and Jim Crow were both legal.
7
Gender is sex. They are the same. The reason we've come to think they're not the same is that we live in a patriarchal culture that insists we conform our personalities to our biology: Females have certain interests, styles, and behaviors, males have different ones. If I don't prefer the culturally mandated interests, styles and behaviors of my sex, I must "be the opposite sex." I'm a woman, but I don't like dresses and I don't wear them. Does that mean I really want to be a man? Are we kidding? The ludicrous nature of this thinking becomes painfully obvious when we have boys with penises claiming to be girls walking around naked in the girls' locker room. If that's not the Emperor's New Gender, I don't know what is.
Starting as children, we should have the right to dress and act the way we want to without being told we really want to be a member of the opposite sex. Do away with the stereotypes. We're born with a body -- a gender -- a sex -- call it whatever you like. Everything else is up for grabs.
Starting as children, we should have the right to dress and act the way we want to without being told we really want to be a member of the opposite sex. Do away with the stereotypes. We're born with a body -- a gender -- a sex -- call it whatever you like. Everything else is up for grabs.
37
I'm honestly not sure which is more depressing about most of the comments thus far: The blinkered ignorance ("biological sex" is a purely social construct, geniuses; you should probably stop deriving 100% of your "knowledge" about gender from repeated viewings of Kindergarten Cop), or the bigoted cruelty.
In either event, it's a needed reminder of why I try to stay away from Comments sections on media websites anymore.
In either event, it's a needed reminder of why I try to stay away from Comments sections on media websites anymore.
8
Men's spaces - both bathrooms and locker rooms - are not safe spaces.
It is fascinating that the option of making men behave better is never mentioned in the discussion about solutions.
It is fascinating that the option of making men behave better is never mentioned in the discussion about solutions.
39
What the author and supporters of redefining sex as nothing but gender identity fail to mention is that doing so renders the category of sex legally meaningless. The gender identity movement insists that female is nothing but a feeling, and that males can give birth and breastfeed and menstruate. If this new interpretation of sex becomes entrenched in law, no one can argue that firing an employee for menstruating is sex discrimination. The US court system has already ruled that firing someone for breastfeeding is not sex discrimination because men can breastfeed. This is all very dangerous for female people. We are losing all sex-based protections as sex-role stereotypes get codified as the only legal definitions of male and female.
70
I'm confused by the terminology.
If a transgender girl decides to change genders again, does "she" then revert to being a cisgender boy or is he/she/he now a transgender boy?
There are lot of legal issues involved in emerging gender fluidity. The Federal Government needs to provide guidance.
If a transgender girl decides to change genders again, does "she" then revert to being a cisgender boy or is he/she/he now a transgender boy?
There are lot of legal issues involved in emerging gender fluidity. The Federal Government needs to provide guidance.
9
Articles like this are what drive people toward Trump.They are so frightened about what the crazy progressives will come up with next that they are willing to take their chances.
119
My wife will not let me see her naked. And she has a beautiful body.
I, at 60, am a God, of course -- like all men think of themselves.
Now, honestly, are you really suggseting that women let men see them walking around half naked.
Men won't care. But women will wage a war.
Are you so determined to take all male space that you will drive women to this?
Are you even a woman?
Do you have a clue how an average woman will react to being told they must allow men to see them walking around half naked.
Please.
I, at 60, am a God, of course -- like all men think of themselves.
Now, honestly, are you really suggseting that women let men see them walking around half naked.
Men won't care. But women will wage a war.
Are you so determined to take all male space that you will drive women to this?
Are you even a woman?
Do you have a clue how an average woman will react to being told they must allow men to see them walking around half naked.
Please.
85
Title IX passed in 1972 provides that no person shall be excluded from, denied the benefits of or discriminated on the basis of sex from any federally funded education program. The law says you can't discriminate BECAUSE of sex. It does not say that you must accept a person's belief as to what his or her sex actually is. That was the result of non-binding guidelines issued by the Department of Education in 2014 and 2016. These guidelines are outside of the language of Title IX. The department basically changed the usually accepted definition of sex as being determined by chromosomes to a definition determined by a person' s thoughts. This may be a valid basis for determining sex, but if it is, it requires action by Congress. When Title IX was enacted in 1972, the idea that sex was determined by the brain had not occurred to anyone. It is virtually impossible that the legislative intent of Congress embraced such a notion. I take no position on what the definition of sex should be, but the idea that Title IX entitles transgenders to use the locker room or bathroom of their sexual identity is a pure in invention of the Department of Education.
67
Cisgender is NOT the preferred term. Complete garbage.
If the left wants to lose badly, it should go ahead and pursue permitting mature males into girls' bathrooms and locker rooms.
If the left wants to lose badly, it should go ahead and pursue permitting mature males into girls' bathrooms and locker rooms.
106
I feel like I should be able to declare myself dead any time I feel like I am dead inside. The state of being alive versus the state of being dead is simply a socially mediated performance. Now that I have decided I'm actually not alive, but am in fact dead (I'm not rotting away yet, but I'm starting maggot therapy next month), I feel I should have all the rights and prerogatives of the dead, including not having to pay taxes or following laws intended for the living. Life is so very painful, and being able to come out as dead gives me such a feeling of freedom and honesty. Taking a deep breath. Transitioning. Taking a smaller breath. Transitioning...
90
Perhaps we should start by re-designing and upgrading locker rooms to have a private, enclosed changing area.
These 'problems' put upon all of us are starting to irritate many and will create a major backlash. The NYT should be reminded to be very careful treading too heavily with these dubious topics. We've got a thousand more important, burning issues upfront and center in our daily lives. Seriously.
These 'problems' put upon all of us are starting to irritate many and will create a major backlash. The NYT should be reminded to be very careful treading too heavily with these dubious topics. We've got a thousand more important, burning issues upfront and center in our daily lives. Seriously.
38
Anybody who ever used a high school locker room remembers fellow students who struggled to hide their bodies from companions of the SAME sex. Modesty transcends gender, and respect for the needs of the many individuals uncomfortable with public undressing demands greater concern for the privacy needs of ALL. Failing some unlikely cultural revolution that makes public nudity the norm, private changing rooms should be our default policy.
105
A few years ago, Antioch College completed a major renovation of its fitness center. In addition to a men's locker room and a women's locker room, they put in a smaller "everyone's" locker room that is open to anyone who wishes to use it. It is designed for handicapped individuals who need assistance changing, families with young children, and any individual (transgendered or not) who wishes to have extra privacy.
This strikes me as the most reasonable approach that not only balances privacy and transgender rights, but also meets the needs of other people who are currently left completely out of this debate, and is much more affordable than renovating entire locker rooms.
This strikes me as the most reasonable approach that not only balances privacy and transgender rights, but also meets the needs of other people who are currently left completely out of this debate, and is much more affordable than renovating entire locker rooms.
35
Many trans-activists would call you a bigot for suggesting that. They specifically want for males to be able to use women's bathrooms, locker rooms, dormitories, etc. See point 7 here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/elura-nanos/7-smart-responses-to-the-_b_98....
27
Oh, for God's sake. The ocean are rising and children are dying in Syria -- who cares what bathroom or locker room somebody uses? Both sides of this "debate" are completely, certifiably insane.
62
Women's issues have always been regarded as unimportant and apparently still are.
50
Um, no they're not. You think it's OK to force girls and boys to undress in front of each other? How would you have felt about that as a teenager? What is insane is this idea that a girl is not a girl and a boy is not a boy.
I really wish that articles like this would wait until after Trump loses, just to be safe. It is this kind of thing that riles up the people who are driven to Trump out of desperation. Please, NYT, just cool it on the "you are whatever you say you are in spite of your biology" columns until after the potential apocalypse has passed, OK? Signed, an appreciative subscriber.
I really wish that articles like this would wait until after Trump loses, just to be safe. It is this kind of thing that riles up the people who are driven to Trump out of desperation. Please, NYT, just cool it on the "you are whatever you say you are in spite of your biology" columns until after the potential apocalypse has passed, OK? Signed, an appreciative subscriber.
42
“How do we protect transgender people against real and pernicious discrimination,” Mr. Bookbinder asks, without taking away the reparations women fought so hard for?
______
When did equal opportunity become about making reparations?
______
When did equal opportunity become about making reparations?
30
As an attorney who advises local school districts, I appreciate this well-researched and thoughtful essay. It's interesting that an article with so much substantive information draws far fewer comments than one would expect on this charged topic. I guess appreciation of complexity makes it difficult to deny the validity of differing viewpoints, depriving the "comments" section of the fuel that usually drives it.
14
Sexual identity and mores are socio-cultural constructions instantiated in the legal domain through the exercise of political power. Those who have traveled or lived in some European countries can readily observe a more relaxed and tolerant view of sexuality and the human body and where the issues described here would be greeted with a nonchalant shrug. The backlash to North Carolina's bathroom law suggests a more enlightened socio-cultural turn. Our descendants may view current issues and legal moves as quaint as we do early 20th-century swimwear.
9
I've traveled to Europe 15 or so times, and will tell you that their public toilets are sexually segregated.
40
Frist may I suggest we stop "lumping and labeling" everything and everyone - it does no good we are individuals. Regarding today's bathroom gender article a point has been missing: the girl or woman using the "girls room" is female - she is not a transgender male now female - she is female. What other bathroom would she use, the men's room? Think about it.
13
Apparently, she has just started hormone therapy, so she most likely still has a penis. I would call her a male.
25
You know the old joke that Abraham Lincoln told? "If we call a tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have?" Answer: 4. Because calling a tail a leg does not make it so. Think about it.
32
Just what we knew would happen, the sexually belligerent will impose themselves on those who simply want to mind their own business. And people on the left will behave like people on the right superimposing their agenda on us all. The press's exploitation of the issue has resulted in our high schools being riddled with teenagers in identity conflict that many could have postponed or not have had to deal with ever. So many adults are so blind and irresponsible, asking or suggesting teens question their gender identity before their personalities are formed. The is how pederast manipulate the minds of minors. Additionally I think teaching young people that their demanding the larger group accommodate their requiring special treatment will be detrimental. No society has ever favored those asking to be indulged in the request for personal favors. I'll not be surprised if people like Shulevitz create more conflict not less.
81
Yes, it's true when the majority ignored the personal pain and confusion faced by a sexual minority it was a lot easier for the majority.
Manipulate the minds of minors? Don't pretend your attitude is anything besides wishing these issues and these people back into the closet.
Manipulate the minds of minors? Don't pretend your attitude is anything besides wishing these issues and these people back into the closet.
4
Can we focus also on how ridiculous and inappropriate it was for an unelected and unaccountable federal agency to presume to define "sex" definitively by administrative diktat? Precisely what the meanings of sex and gender are, biologically and socially, is one of the most hotly-debated topics today in academia and elsewhere. It is typical of the Obama Administration bureaucarchy to use an illegal "guidance" document to impose far-left orthodoxy on the educational sector via binding de facto regulation which never went through notice and comment. The same office did exactly the same thing with University sexual assault adjudication, equally causing lawsuits and chaos. Catherine Lhamon is a criminal and Ed. OCR is a rogue agency, no two ways about it.
64
The Administration's "guidance," like much of trans-activism, is actually very conservative, not far-left. It reinforces the idea that sex-based stereotypes are natural and inevitable. That's an extremely conservative position.
21
Is it possible we are over-prioritizing trans issues?
We are talking about a percent of one percent of the population.
You here about more trans roles in film but not about hispanic roles when there are almost no hispanic-american movie stars yet one in four american movie goers is hispanic.
We are focused on bathrooms and locker rooms and these could literally be underwater in decades that come as we take baby steps on climate at a time when drastic action is needed.
We are talking about a percent of one percent of the population.
You here about more trans roles in film but not about hispanic roles when there are almost no hispanic-american movie stars yet one in four american movie goers is hispanic.
We are focused on bathrooms and locker rooms and these could literally be underwater in decades that come as we take baby steps on climate at a time when drastic action is needed.
144
We as a society are in a period of transition on many of our values. Its going to be messy. The problem is that when the government steps in with a sledge hammer approach and is on the leading edge of that change, it sets up conflicts with previous laws and rules. This places the local jurisdictions in a 'no win' situation.
I would propose that government let society work through the changes and once consensus is reached, codify those rules to prevent abuse. Government should function like the Supreme Court, which enforces rules for the most part, that society has already agreed upon.
I would propose that government let society work through the changes and once consensus is reached, codify those rules to prevent abuse. Government should function like the Supreme Court, which enforces rules for the most part, that society has already agreed upon.
16
And how long would it have taken for society to come to a consensus regarding slavery? How about voting rights? Could we just impose a consensus regarding gun laws, because when questioned the overwhelming majority of citizens want more controls? The fact is,sometimes society has to be dragged kicking and screaming into enlightenment. If someone is being denied RIGHTS, the number being denied matters not.
2
There's very little mention of those of us who are adults and regularly use locker rooms at gyms. At this time when there is so much conversation about male sexual predatory behavior, you'd think there would be greater awareness to the vulnerability women would feel when naked around strange men.
The day I see a penis in the YMCA showers will change my life profoundly. If you think for one minute there aren't plenty of perverts who would claim to be a woman in order to access spaces with naked women, and do so without fear of retribution of any sort, then you haven't been paying attention!
The day I see a penis in the YMCA showers will change my life profoundly. If you think for one minute there aren't plenty of perverts who would claim to be a woman in order to access spaces with naked women, and do so without fear of retribution of any sort, then you haven't been paying attention!
186
Already happened. The outcome is, of course, that the woman who complained about a man who said he was a woman in the locker room lost her Planet Fitness membership:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/07/living/feat-planet-fitness-transgender-mem...
http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/07/living/feat-planet-fitness-transgender-mem...
40
Seriously?
The Chinese will bury us.
The Chinese will bury us.
67
Biological sex is not gender. Gender is not biological sex. For the government to declare that "sex" is "an internal sense of gender" is illogical. It has driven me crazy for years to encounter forms that ask for my "gender" instead of my "sex," when what it clearly being asked for is my biological sex--a distinction that in the case of medical forms is crucial. My sex is female; my gender is something much more variable.
And a so-called solution that is, essentially, all ("retire the notion of two sexes) or nothing ("segregate everyone from everyone else"), is not a solution.
And a so-called solution that is, essentially, all ("retire the notion of two sexes) or nothing ("segregate everyone from everyone else"), is not a solution.
36
What happens when a transgender boy, looking like a girl, gets undressed with boys in the locker room and a boy gets an erection? Does the transgender boy have a claim of sexual assault? Does the boy have a claim of being publicly embarrassed?
Similarly, if a transgender girl, who isn't as transgender as she thought, gets an erection while in the girl's locker room. Do girls have a claim for sexual assault?
Similarly, if a transgender girl, who isn't as transgender as she thought, gets an erection while in the girl's locker room. Do girls have a claim for sexual assault?
45
An interesting article. But am I the only female who objects to be called cisgender? As in "preferred" diction? Preferred by whom? Just as I as a white woman do not have the right to decide what transgender people, or any person of another race, is called, transgender people have the right to name themselves, but not me.
I find so much of this perplexing. If a white person decides to be a black person, because she 'feels' black (as was the case with the chair of the NAACP in Oregon), why is that any different from saying that one "feels like" a man or a woman?
And while then there is, perhaps, the outcry, that the white person is then 'appropriating' the identity of the black person (this seems to be the claim when the 'change' is from what is generally accepted to be the dominant class) why is a male transitioning to a female not seeing a culturally appropriating femaleness?
I'd like to make clear that I think everyone has the right to claim whatever identity they want: that's not up to me. But what I am called, and who I am, is up to me, too.
I find so much of this perplexing. If a white person decides to be a black person, because she 'feels' black (as was the case with the chair of the NAACP in Oregon), why is that any different from saying that one "feels like" a man or a woman?
And while then there is, perhaps, the outcry, that the white person is then 'appropriating' the identity of the black person (this seems to be the claim when the 'change' is from what is generally accepted to be the dominant class) why is a male transitioning to a female not seeing a culturally appropriating femaleness?
I'd like to make clear that I think everyone has the right to claim whatever identity they want: that's not up to me. But what I am called, and who I am, is up to me, too.
223
I am with you completely, Concerned Mother. I am not "cis," I am a woman. I was born female, with XX chromosomes, female anatomy, mind, and life experience including sexism. I get to define myself, and I emphatically don't choose to be called "cis" as I find the term offensive.
28
I absolutely agree that the term cis- girl is deeply offensive. If it were used in a racial context it would be openly considered racist and offensive. I am deeply troubled by males somehow defining themselves as female - appropriating what women are and creating definitions that have to do with appearance and dress. Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner is a caricature of what men think of women but our PC cultures tolerates it. Once again - women are the losers.
77
I feel exactly as you do. As a woman, I find the term "cisgendered" offensive and I will never use it. Transgender folks represent a tiny minority of the population who, in order to be accepted, would like to redefine the world based on their experience. Transgender people have altered their presentation of self in order to stay sane and live in the world. This is no small matter, and they have every right to do this. But "feeling like" a member of the opposite sex is not the same as actually being a member of that sex, and it is not my job to redefine myself to acknowledge that fact.
It's a bit odd, really, because at the same time transgender individuals want to be taken seriously, their term "cisgendered" serves to continue to point out the differences between themselves and the gender to which they have transitioned. One would think they'd want to simply blend into the larger group, rather than continuing to point out the obvious difference.
It's a bit odd, really, because at the same time transgender individuals want to be taken seriously, their term "cisgendered" serves to continue to point out the differences between themselves and the gender to which they have transitioned. One would think they'd want to simply blend into the larger group, rather than continuing to point out the obvious difference.
111
Stop hiding our bodies from each other?
In a week where thousands of women are sharing stories about being harassed, stalked, traumatized, groped and far worse, are we really still pretending that women are safe in this world? Women are "coming out" with their long buried stories and it show how prevalent is this trauma. And now we'll be stripped of that basic privacy?
While "gender" may be a social construct or performative, a hairy penis is NOT. Seems to me that "the girls" are the last consideration in this discussion. Don't girls have the right to CONSENT to be exposed to male genitalia? The right to consent to giving up their privacy?
In a week where thousands of women are sharing stories about being harassed, stalked, traumatized, groped and far worse, are we really still pretending that women are safe in this world? Women are "coming out" with their long buried stories and it show how prevalent is this trauma. And now we'll be stripped of that basic privacy?
While "gender" may be a social construct or performative, a hairy penis is NOT. Seems to me that "the girls" are the last consideration in this discussion. Don't girls have the right to CONSENT to be exposed to male genitalia? The right to consent to giving up their privacy?
207
@Judy,
Very well said. Forcing female people to be naked in front of or exposed to the naked bodies of males is abusive. The whole thing is one gigantic middle finger from patriarchy to females, all under the guise of "progressiveness."
Very well said. Forcing female people to be naked in front of or exposed to the naked bodies of males is abusive. The whole thing is one gigantic middle finger from patriarchy to females, all under the guise of "progressiveness."
42
Misogyny lingers uncomfortably close to these crusades for trans rights. As a male, my locker room is there for any who feel a preference for it. But for females, the question is so obviously not equivalent. To have mostly male bureaucrats dictating what women should do is repulsive and showcases everything that's wrong with the progressive orthodoxy. Let women decide for themselves what arrangement is good for them! Men, stay quiet for once!
32
Men also have the right to consent to being exposed to female genitalia. Everyone has the right to consent - or not - and have that respected.
9
Yes. Privacy for all! I don't think anything bothered more in high school or in college dorms (!) than communal showers and communal lockers. One could not change or shower without exposing oneself to everyone else's view. It certainly can be done in future construction and gradually retrofitted in old. In the German swimming pools I have visited, everyone has a private changing booth and a private shower.
29
Women are a group historically discriminated on, and Title IX was implemented to protect them. Gender fluidity creates a not easily definable state, and the government should not be using Title IX to undermine rights not yet even won for women for what seems to be a minuscule population. I have every sympathy for the transgendered and they otherwise have my support, but advisories like this from the administration seem to make everything relative except maleness, ignoring for the moment that most of the cultures immigrating to the country today can not easily accept the complete integration of men and women.
For starters, it just isn't safe for women as the definitions break down. It also undermines a woman's historic role as classes in sexuality and reproduction back off from even using the term "uterus" in order to be inclusive. Further, the erosion of women's athletics, once insured by Title IX, is inevitable.
My sense is that the concept of "womanhood" stands to be erased, as women seem to embrace their genetic sameness. Oddly, The concept of manhood is never erased. This "inclusive" policy is male dominant, especially as men are required by transgender numbers to make the least accommodation. it is profoundly offensive.
For starters, it just isn't safe for women as the definitions break down. It also undermines a woman's historic role as classes in sexuality and reproduction back off from even using the term "uterus" in order to be inclusive. Further, the erosion of women's athletics, once insured by Title IX, is inevitable.
My sense is that the concept of "womanhood" stands to be erased, as women seem to embrace their genetic sameness. Oddly, The concept of manhood is never erased. This "inclusive" policy is male dominant, especially as men are required by transgender numbers to make the least accommodation. it is profoundly offensive.
101
@jeffrey,
You are absolutely correct in everything you said. This is an attack on the gains that girls and women have made, no two bones about it. Terms like "cis" are incredibly offensive, as they imply that women somehow "identify" with oppressive femininity. Gender and Sex are not the same thing. Gender is oppressive sex roles stereotypes and it is NOT innate. SEX is unchangeable and the root basis on which female humans are oppressed and abused. In addition, the current trans contagion is essentially a form of gay conversion, and it's sterilizing gay and lesbian children, which is what puberty blockers and cross hormones do. The general public MUST wake up about this issue. It is the worst thing to happen to women since the Abrahamic religions.
You are absolutely correct in everything you said. This is an attack on the gains that girls and women have made, no two bones about it. Terms like "cis" are incredibly offensive, as they imply that women somehow "identify" with oppressive femininity. Gender and Sex are not the same thing. Gender is oppressive sex roles stereotypes and it is NOT innate. SEX is unchangeable and the root basis on which female humans are oppressed and abused. In addition, the current trans contagion is essentially a form of gay conversion, and it's sterilizing gay and lesbian children, which is what puberty blockers and cross hormones do. The general public MUST wake up about this issue. It is the worst thing to happen to women since the Abrahamic religions.
30
Yes, it IS profoundly offensive. It is also extremely conservative. Trans-activism further entrenches sex-based stereotypes, which harm women. They argue that sex-based stereotypes are natural and innate (I wear makeup, therefore I am a girl). That is an extremely conservative position.
34
The author seems confused about the definition of “transgender.” The adjective does not describe a person who has changed sex. It describes a person who “identifies with or expresses a gender identity that differs from the one which corresponds to the person's biological sex.” It does not describe a person who was born a boy but became a girl or a person who was born a girl but became a boy. Human are not among the species who can change sex after birth. (If men could actually become women or women could actually become men, there would be not transgender issue, would there?) The “girl-born-a-girl” in the author’s scenario do does not want to strip in front a “boy-born-a-boy” because the boy-born-a-boy is still a boy, regardless of his gender identification.
116
"Cisgender girl" is not a preferred term for a girl, and neither is "a girl born a girl", except in the wacky reaches of gender studies.
275
The attempt to divorce sex from the body is likely to go as well as the Republican attempt to divorce politics from facts, science, and lived reality.
Remember when Rove declared that only liberals felt themselves bound to a fact-based reality and crowed how people like himself were able to create their own reality? We're still seeing how that plays out as we near the 2016 election. But at the moment it certainly looks headed toward a fiery crash as their pretend world has become more and more bizarrely fantastical and grotesquely hostile to accepting and dealing with climate change, energy policy, racism, and - just about everything else under the sun.
To deny that human beings live out their sexual existences in and through their bodies is just as incoherent. We are not disembodied heads floating in a jar. At least not yet.
Remember when Rove declared that only liberals felt themselves bound to a fact-based reality and crowed how people like himself were able to create their own reality? We're still seeing how that plays out as we near the 2016 election. But at the moment it certainly looks headed toward a fiery crash as their pretend world has become more and more bizarrely fantastical and grotesquely hostile to accepting and dealing with climate change, energy policy, racism, and - just about everything else under the sun.
To deny that human beings live out their sexual existences in and through their bodies is just as incoherent. We are not disembodied heads floating in a jar. At least not yet.
82
That's the problem. Much of trans-activism asserts that we are not sexed bodies. For them, it is not about biological reality; it is all about identity.
19
The comforts of one's own skin! The complications are mind-boggling. But so is sexuality for any teen-ager: girl-as-girl, boy-as-boy, girl-as-boy, boy-as-girl.
What the article didn't address is how a young girl, who has been a victim of incest or at the very least inappropriate touching by a male parent or other relative, feels when she has to change her clothes in a locker room in front of a transgender who identifies as being a girl, but still has the anatomy of a boy. This doesn't deny the significance and sensitivity we all need to provide any teen transgender, but to address the emotional volatility of these growing-up years, and the quiet traumas some have to bear.
For all the politics and all the potential lawsuits, for all the many fine reasons for tolerance and acceptance, how do you address & accommodate the trauma of young girls, struggling their very best to accept their changing bodies, who have at such a young age been violated? every law needs at its center a very big heart, for one and all.
What the article didn't address is how a young girl, who has been a victim of incest or at the very least inappropriate touching by a male parent or other relative, feels when she has to change her clothes in a locker room in front of a transgender who identifies as being a girl, but still has the anatomy of a boy. This doesn't deny the significance and sensitivity we all need to provide any teen transgender, but to address the emotional volatility of these growing-up years, and the quiet traumas some have to bear.
For all the politics and all the potential lawsuits, for all the many fine reasons for tolerance and acceptance, how do you address & accommodate the trauma of young girls, struggling their very best to accept their changing bodies, who have at such a young age been violated? every law needs at its center a very big heart, for one and all.
66
Bluegirl - there is no need to invoke images of children who have been abused. Why should any young girl, all of whom are dealing with the baffling and frightening manifestations and implications of puberty and emerging sexuality, have to expose her body to unfortunate boys afflicted with the severe mental illness of gender dysphoria? Inflicting such emotional trauma on millions of girls is gross child abuse in the guise of feel good left wing orthodoxy. The next step is to placate and normalize pedophiles by inviting them into school locker rooms, too; how can we legally discriminate against child molesters simply because of their natural "fluid and science-supported" sexuality?
24
"This year the agencies told schools to interpret 'sex' as a psychological condition, an 'internal sense of gender,' rather than an anatomical one. The new interpretation has some science to back it up. But the way the change was made — by fiat, without public debate — has produced a surprisingly broad backlash, from secular feminists as well as evangelical conservatives."
This is the crux of the problem. What on earth possessed Federal bureaucrats to move so far ahead of public opinion and science in this arena? Common sense tells you it's impossible to put the words "bathroom," "locker room" and "children" together in a single sentence without creating a critical mass and unleashing ferocious dissent, and yet that's the federal government has done, apparently in a cultural and political vacuum.
I would welcome investigative reporting on the decision making within the agency and the people involved in the process. What on earth were they thinking when they got so far ahead of public opinion, knowledge and science? It was inevitable that the real issue, which is making life easier for trans people would be highjacked by exasperating what-if questions and worst-case scenarios.
The best outcome would be for a federal judge to rule that the agency's directives are not grounded in federal law and that the statutes prohibiting sex discrimination do not apply to gender orientation. This would give all sides an opportunity to think things through a little better.
This is the crux of the problem. What on earth possessed Federal bureaucrats to move so far ahead of public opinion and science in this arena? Common sense tells you it's impossible to put the words "bathroom," "locker room" and "children" together in a single sentence without creating a critical mass and unleashing ferocious dissent, and yet that's the federal government has done, apparently in a cultural and political vacuum.
I would welcome investigative reporting on the decision making within the agency and the people involved in the process. What on earth were they thinking when they got so far ahead of public opinion, knowledge and science? It was inevitable that the real issue, which is making life easier for trans people would be highjacked by exasperating what-if questions and worst-case scenarios.
The best outcome would be for a federal judge to rule that the agency's directives are not grounded in federal law and that the statutes prohibiting sex discrimination do not apply to gender orientation. This would give all sides an opportunity to think things through a little better.
80
I remember the time as a young man I was by good fortune invited to join Swiss friends at an elegant but understated spa outside Chur. I was taken aback by the communal changing rooms -- men, women, children all together. No one was staring or snickering, no one was hiding or showing off. Everyone minded their own business and got themselves into their swim suits or street clothes without intruding on others' space. It was a revelation for an American about how we could disempower gender from defining us and our social relationships.
70
In that environment, why were swim suits required?
6
If you truly believe that the behavior of adult men, adult women and children all changing together is a template for the expected behavior of adolescent boys and girls changing together in the absence of adults, then I've got a bridge to sell you.
21
Yup. We Americans have a lot of work ahead of us to work all these issues out. Expect continued fierce and persistent resistance from the religious right. They like misogamy just fine.
For the rest of us it will be a difficult and embarrassing experience. We all will have to give these gender and sexual issues a good deal of thought. Then find the courage to act.
The right wingers must not prevail here nor be given special privileges.
Yes indeed. A lot of work ahead of all of us here.
For the rest of us it will be a difficult and embarrassing experience. We all will have to give these gender and sexual issues a good deal of thought. Then find the courage to act.
The right wingers must not prevail here nor be given special privileges.
Yes indeed. A lot of work ahead of all of us here.
1
"Scientists mostly agree that sexual identity is multifarious, not binary; fungible, not fixed. Sex-linked chromosomes; hormones; the internalization of cultural expectations — all develop differently in each individual, yielding a gamut of sexualities. Perhaps it’s time to retire the notion of two sexes.
Do we get to remain a heterosexually reproducing species? What's the difference compared to "Christian scientists" who see homosexuality as "fungible, not fixed"? Is it that the "good" scientists are "progressive"?
Strategizing, manipulation&rent-seeking aside, have you asked yourself whether the sexes prefer to be different, whether women like being (and feeling like) women? Even if the entire history of mankind were wrong. even if sexual selection&behavioral genetics did not exist, and sexuality were as diffuse and socially constructed as you implicitly hold here (your vagueness in respect to "scientific" consensus likely is necessary), humans are essentialist beings. They do essentialize; they prefer a considerable degree and extent of essentialism (see Blum and Gelman). This obliteration you have in mind, does it not remind you of Kibbutzim (where gender neutrality failed) and utopia? Does happiness matter? Tyranny of the minority.
You ignore freedom of association. You ignore utility/hedonism. You ignore pluralism. The obliteration of sex is not pluralistic, it's both nihilistic and restrictive: it eliminates one possibility (and its modifications): two sexes.
Do we get to remain a heterosexually reproducing species? What's the difference compared to "Christian scientists" who see homosexuality as "fungible, not fixed"? Is it that the "good" scientists are "progressive"?
Strategizing, manipulation&rent-seeking aside, have you asked yourself whether the sexes prefer to be different, whether women like being (and feeling like) women? Even if the entire history of mankind were wrong. even if sexual selection&behavioral genetics did not exist, and sexuality were as diffuse and socially constructed as you implicitly hold here (your vagueness in respect to "scientific" consensus likely is necessary), humans are essentialist beings. They do essentialize; they prefer a considerable degree and extent of essentialism (see Blum and Gelman). This obliteration you have in mind, does it not remind you of Kibbutzim (where gender neutrality failed) and utopia? Does happiness matter? Tyranny of the minority.
You ignore freedom of association. You ignore utility/hedonism. You ignore pluralism. The obliteration of sex is not pluralistic, it's both nihilistic and restrictive: it eliminates one possibility (and its modifications): two sexes.
15
"But you can’t dismiss the plaintiffs’ concerns as mere intolerance, either."
>sigh< You absolutely can, and SHOULD, do that. Bigotry, such as the kind ADF champions, is not a "difference of opinion"; it's an infection of the human condition, and the only reasonable response to it is to ERADICATE it.
>sigh< You absolutely can, and SHOULD, do that. Bigotry, such as the kind ADF champions, is not a "difference of opinion"; it's an infection of the human condition, and the only reasonable response to it is to ERADICATE it.
1
This is a terrible idea, and anyone who understands the history of sex-separated spaces will know why. Racially-segregated spaces were imposed involuntarily on racial minorities to maintain white supremacy. Meanwhile women fought hard for the right to have sex-separated spaces, because they are a prerequisite for women to participate fully in public life. The problem at hand is not female "prudishness"; it's male harassment and violence. We live in a world where women can barely walk down the street in some neighborhoods without being catcalled and harassed. You know full well that we are not going to be able to strip nude in front of those kinds of men without facing more harassment and violence. You know full well there will be men who intentionally hang around in these integrated change areas to perv on women. Stop blaming women for being aware of reality and demanding safe accommodations.
About Palatine, why is Student A being prioritized above all the other girls? They have made it clear they don't feel safe or comfortable sharing a locker room. According to the lawsuit there is NO team bonding happening when A is in the room, because sharing a change space with a fully male-bodied person is humiliating and frightening. Girls are getting UTIs because they're too scared to use the toilet. That's not okay. A already has toilet/change accommodations; A does not need to monopolize ALL the women's facilities to the detriment of A's peers.
About Palatine, why is Student A being prioritized above all the other girls? They have made it clear they don't feel safe or comfortable sharing a locker room. According to the lawsuit there is NO team bonding happening when A is in the room, because sharing a change space with a fully male-bodied person is humiliating and frightening. Girls are getting UTIs because they're too scared to use the toilet. That's not okay. A already has toilet/change accommodations; A does not need to monopolize ALL the women's facilities to the detriment of A's peers.
135
It is a terrible idea, overriding women's and girls' need for privacy for whatever political expediency.
20
"Perhaps it’s time to retire the notion of two sexes." In light of everything that has been said and shown this week around the victimization of girls and women by men this notion is dangerous and ridiculous. Girls and women are subject to sexual aggression everywhere and it's not just rape. Groping, leering, up skirt creep shots, and obscene comments are common. The need for segregated spaces to undress or attend to intimate needs is not based on some antiquated motion of Victorian modesty but actual fear. No girl wants to confront a penis while she is dressing for gym class and no women wants to end up on the changing tampon thread of one of the countless creep shot forums. To pretend this doesn't all exist is dangerously naive and unfair to girls and women who already struggle daily to maintain a modicum of safety and dignity.
145
Yay, we can get rid of Title IX and my football team can recruit 150 players!
6
".....which turns on the question of whether Gavin Grimm, a 16-year-old transgender boy, may use the men’s room"
TImes speak for a biological girl.
TImes speak for a biological girl.
21
A difficult question which, because it involves an aggregate of bodies rather than minds sharing the same space, may never have a satisfactory answer for the individual involved. Clearly the transgender individual has a mind, set in an unmatched body.
In a library minds of every sort are welcome without hesitation. However if one is disruptive the person will be asked to leave. It is a matter of understood decorum regardless the person involved claims a need to dance and yell from the top of a stack.
Women like men who accept their biological roles should be able to have assurance of privacy limited to those of their biological sex.
Being transgender, like any claim to any sexuality is a personal decision and its' acceptance should neither be forced on nor objected to by the community. However it is unreasonable to consider this private decision be publicly accommodated.
Reason which is overlooked in almost any discussions involving sex is placed as always behind morality which beyond a convenient excuse should have no bearing on reality. The so called religious right has no basis beyond belief which is in effect no different than transgender claims.
While a person's claim to trans gender sexuality is to be respected, there is no actual reason to disrupt another person's life as a result of this belief, as it has nothing to do with any other person's reality
We all have concerns which more often than not have to be solved without society's help or interference.
In a library minds of every sort are welcome without hesitation. However if one is disruptive the person will be asked to leave. It is a matter of understood decorum regardless the person involved claims a need to dance and yell from the top of a stack.
Women like men who accept their biological roles should be able to have assurance of privacy limited to those of their biological sex.
Being transgender, like any claim to any sexuality is a personal decision and its' acceptance should neither be forced on nor objected to by the community. However it is unreasonable to consider this private decision be publicly accommodated.
Reason which is overlooked in almost any discussions involving sex is placed as always behind morality which beyond a convenient excuse should have no bearing on reality. The so called religious right has no basis beyond belief which is in effect no different than transgender claims.
While a person's claim to trans gender sexuality is to be respected, there is no actual reason to disrupt another person's life as a result of this belief, as it has nothing to do with any other person's reality
We all have concerns which more often than not have to be solved without society's help or interference.
12
This is an excellent, balanced and nuanced commentary on the issue of transgender rights vs privacy. I suspect the author is correct in that the only way this will work will be to ignore sexual preferences and have one locker room for all sexes (I'm pretty sure most girls would be opposed and most boys in favor of that option) or to spend the money to make all areas where boys and girls may be partially or fully unclothed individually private.
That means more money for schools, but not for education.
That means more money for schools, but not for education.
6
I'm so confused?
5
What a disingenuous article. You wanna point at why Millenials loathe the times, consistently trashing trans people over imagined slights is a big one
3
It is sexual harassment and assault to say that a women or girl is bigoted or uptight for not wanting to change in front of a biological male. It doesn't matter if the biological male is gay or straight. He has no right to expose himself to other women and girls and he has no right to view them changing or showering. Women and girls have rights. And even if a woman is prudish she has the right to be. This is like when men say women are "frigid" for not wanting to have sex with them. Even if it is true, women have the right to give and take away consent. End of story.
And biological sex is not complicated. Over 99% of humans are strictly male or female. And those with inter-sex conditions mostly lean in one direction. Penises do not belong in female spaces.
And biological sex is not complicated. Over 99% of humans are strictly male or female. And those with inter-sex conditions mostly lean in one direction. Penises do not belong in female spaces.
162
"He has no right to expose himself to other women and girls and he has no right to view them changing or showering. Women and girls have rights."
Do women have the "right" to enter male spaces where men don't want women and/or female sexuality? Or is it the female privilege to solely determine what "harassment" and "hostile environments" are? Does male consent matter, or do you want to compel association?
Do women have the "right" to enter male spaces where men don't want women and/or female sexuality? Or is it the female privilege to solely determine what "harassment" and "hostile environments" are? Does male consent matter, or do you want to compel association?
7
The Minnesota case is an example of bullying by "student X", only tolerated because of the fear of the p.c. That behavior isn't typical among teenage girls - it's lewd and inappropriate. And now apparently endorsed by the OCR? I am glad my children are grown and that my grandchildren attend parochial schools, free from this kind of nonsense.
80
That behavior isn't appropriate for males, either (unless you're Donald Trump).
7
Statistically, men are the mass perpetrators of rape and sexual assault, they are most likely break the lines of privacy (not only, but most likely). Yet, lesbians and trans people have historically been stereotyped as the one to break that boundary in predatory and frightening ways, despite statistics showing us with a high chance of being physically attacked or assaulted. We talk about modesty while women are sexualized and objectified legally in mass advertising. So how do we stop it? We prosecute people (men) for sexual assault and rape and have punishing sentences for those who are guilty. Punishment for deterrence? Must we rehash the frustrations behind Brock Turner?
Diversity and inclusion will never work if the laws and policies we have in the first place do not deliver justice freely and equally for everyone. In this case, this failure is of not prosecuting men violating women, and how alternatively, we see the issue of modesty as the reason for segregation in the first place.
Diversity and inclusion will never work if the laws and policies we have in the first place do not deliver justice freely and equally for everyone. In this case, this failure is of not prosecuting men violating women, and how alternatively, we see the issue of modesty as the reason for segregation in the first place.
4
I'm curious, what do other countries do in these situations? Or is this only an American issue? I've spent a lot of time in many other countries and I never have heard anything at all similar. It's seemingly becoming an obsession with the NYT to address transgender inequalities yet I rarely hear about plain old fashioned female inequality problems, as if they don't exist. Once we can resolve the ones that affect 50% of the population (like equal pay and passing the ERA), then perhaps we can concentrate on those of 1/10th of 1% ones.
39
It appears that our puritan past continues to get in the way and create issues where there are none. This all seems exceptionally expensive too. What do poor countries do who don't have the resources or folks from Harvard to explain the nuances to them? I remember playing soccer in the 80's in Scandinavian countries and during a tournament the women's team just undressed in front of us without fanfare. It all seemed normal and the US boys eventually(after a few weeks of omg) responded with oh that's just normal here and moved on. Perhaps kids could come up with what to do? Nah, what do they know, the Supreme Court/Ivy League is here to point the path to freedom and equality in our country. Eventually(50 yrs?) this situation will be normal, where one can just get undressed and no one really cares, they have more important things to consider. Pure acceptance. Now that's a safe moment in the locker room!
5
And yet you, a male, clearly remember it even 30 years later.
Interesting.
Interesting.
33
Funny how it's usually men promoting this hippie unisex changing room utopia where everybody's getting undressed in front of everybody else. Come on ladies, get undressed in front of males! Don't be a puritan! LOL!
60
I'm a Transgender woman aged 28. I want people like me to be able to use the bathroom and locker room without being afraid that they are going to get assaulted. It's as simple as that.
I use the public bathroom, but I've been too afraid to use any locker room. I only swim in lakes, rivers, and hot springs as a result. I wish I could use a diving board again, but I'm just way too afraid to use the locker room.
I wish I wasn't so afraid of other people degrading and hurting me. Before I transitioned I never tried to stare at people's genitals when I was changing. I don't understand why mine matter, and I wish I could afford to get SRS but I just don't have the money right now.
I just wish I could be accepted instead of viewed as some sort of molesting boogeyman.
I use the public bathroom, but I've been too afraid to use any locker room. I only swim in lakes, rivers, and hot springs as a result. I wish I could use a diving board again, but I'm just way too afraid to use the locker room.
I wish I wasn't so afraid of other people degrading and hurting me. Before I transitioned I never tried to stare at people's genitals when I was changing. I don't understand why mine matter, and I wish I could afford to get SRS but I just don't have the money right now.
I just wish I could be accepted instead of viewed as some sort of molesting boogeyman.
5
It not about you, it's about people who pretend to be you.
10
Put your bathing suit on under your clothes. you can remove your clothes by the side of the pool. Many women do this for convience sake, you can do it for safety.
7
For those of us who have penises, given the atmosphere of intimidation and violence women endure, it's not for us to say anything one way or another. Yes, trans ppl face hostility/violence but as long as you are biologically male imo you must accept that it's for females to decide who can be in their locker room.
26
The ruling class is waging war on reality.
58
There's another assumption behind the segregation of sexes in such spaces: the assumption that everyone is not only cisgender but also heterosexual and therefore not possibly attracted to any of the people changing or showering in the locker room with them. Of course, this is not and has never been the case, though I suspect that any gay person who evidenced any kind of attraction in that situation would be at risk of approbation or worse. But as we hopefully move toward better and more inclusive policies, it's an aspect of this debate worth considering.
3
@Marc,
No, it's actually not "worth considering" at all. Males and females are socialized differently. Have you not been paying attention to what's been going on this week? Lesbians have never once made me feel uncomfortable in a locker room because they are FEMALE and socialized as such. Lesbians have every right to use the women's locker room. So-called "gender identity" has nothing to do with sexual orientation and is a red herring usually (and not surprisingly) tossed out by men.
No, it's actually not "worth considering" at all. Males and females are socialized differently. Have you not been paying attention to what's been going on this week? Lesbians have never once made me feel uncomfortable in a locker room because they are FEMALE and socialized as such. Lesbians have every right to use the women's locker room. So-called "gender identity" has nothing to do with sexual orientation and is a red herring usually (and not surprisingly) tossed out by men.
39
Here in Munich, at some of the traditional Volksbads or public pools, men and women share the locker areas and change clothes in individual stalls near the lockers. Problem solved.
1
Well, kind of. What do you Germans offer Muslim women? Or men? Being "equal" gets complicated.
12
"This year the agencies told schools to interpret “sex” as a psychological condition, an “internal sense of gender,” rather than an anatomical one. The new interpretation has some science to back it up."
I'm pretty sure the theories of 'brain sex' have been debunked; what is this 'science' that backs up the belief that feeling a 'gender' overrides biological sex? Seems to me that one's 'identity' begins and ends within one's own mind and requiring everybody else to validate feelings (based on sex-sterotypes) is cruel and delusional.
I'm pretty sure the theories of 'brain sex' have been debunked; what is this 'science' that backs up the belief that feeling a 'gender' overrides biological sex? Seems to me that one's 'identity' begins and ends within one's own mind and requiring everybody else to validate feelings (based on sex-sterotypes) is cruel and delusional.
70
Well, as I said in another post, one male to female transsexual I knew online bled from her anus once a month. Quite a few others were male DES babies. I think it's pretty clear that biology is involved here in at least some of these cases.
One thing that many don't understand is that transsexualism is extremely rare. Many confuse transsexuals with the far more common crossdresser or transvestite. And it has nothing to do with sexual orientation, either -- a TG person can be straight or gay.
One thing that many don't understand is that transsexualism is extremely rare. Many confuse transsexuals with the far more common crossdresser or transvestite. And it has nothing to do with sexual orientation, either -- a TG person can be straight or gay.
1
So can a transvestite.
Could you elaborate a little more on what you perceive to be the difference?
Could you elaborate a little more on what you perceive to be the difference?
5
It is a fact of life that all institutions, such as schools, will fail some individuals who participate, if the goal is to make all those individuals happy. The Supreme Court should interpret Title IX freely (as it does with most of its opinions). So that as long as the institution does not maliciously and deliberately attack a population segment, whatever arrangements it makes for bathrooms, locker rooms, changing areas, etc. will be OK. We need to grow up and realize that whatever reality we want is not a right. Get the lawyers out of this, and let the schools get on with their jobs, which, unfortunately, they are not doing very well.
2
I'm confused about something. If a school can legally comply with ADA requirements by building a separate bathroom etc for a disabled student, why is it not the same for a gender fluid student. The child in the wheelchair accessible room also misses out on team building, etc. Has this been addressed?
61
Showing one's penis in a girl's locker room, as "Student X" did, is hardly typical girl behavior. And, after two girls physically removed themselves to another room to avoid him, Student X followed them and forced his presence on them and verbally berated them. In any other context, we'd understand Student X's conduct to be swxual harassment. But Student X's subjective, internal, unverifiable so-called gender identity somehow acts as a free pass for his harassing conduct. While in the same breath, the columnist insists that male trans individuals are somehow more at risk of harassment and discrimination than the girls Student X, in fact, harassed.
Where is the protection for teenage girls who don't want to be sexually harassed by boys in the girls locker room?
Where is the protection for teenage girls who don't want to be sexually harassed by boys in the girls locker room?
252
I am quite sure that trans folks of every age are at great risk for harassment and violence. I do not minimize that reality.
But the massive numbers of women who are telling stories of lifetimes of harassment in light of the allegations about Donald Trump show that practically ALL women have suffered.
It feel like once again, women take a back seat and our experiences and realities are ignored. We certainly should not count LESS in this equation.
But the massive numbers of women who are telling stories of lifetimes of harassment in light of the allegations about Donald Trump show that practically ALL women have suffered.
It feel like once again, women take a back seat and our experiences and realities are ignored. We certainly should not count LESS in this equation.
33
It's beyond high time to create locker rooms and showers that allow all people personal privacy. My local rec centers still have the old gang type showers and the bathroom stalls are far too small to change in. This is not just an issue for transgender people. It is also humiliating for people whose bodies have been disfigured for medical reasons or who have disabilities. The virtues of bonding in locker rooms are nonexistent. Bond on the playing field or in the gym.
67
Almost every girl has the experience of hitting puberty and her body suddenly becoming public property. The seminal right of passage into adulthood is the experience of being groped, wolf whistled and insulted. Girls have got to have a space where they can be free of biological males. It's not that MtF school mates are likely to assault them - it's that at this crucial moment in development, girls just need somewhere to get a break.
175
Considering it has gone on for so long that "almost every girl" experiences those sexual groping and insults, it is high time women inculcate respect in their sons starting the day they gave birth to them and require their husbands to do the same. I know, that only solves part of the problem. It at least allows me to take the matter in their hands.
7